20 Episode results for "Jonathan Gruber"

BPR Full Show: Let Me Reintroduce Myself

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BPR Full Show: Let Me Reintroduce Myself

"Support for boston. Public radio comes from. Pnc pnc bank has made a home in the heart of greater boston. Investing time talent and resources in massachusetts communities helping to improve the places we call home. Pnc bank national association member. Fdic can listen to boss about the radio. Eighty nine seven gp h good morning. Jim happy saint patrick's day marjorie. Thank you patrick. Did you to him. You know before we start something huge In this community just happened about fifteen minutes ago. I'm just reading a motion. A response to a motion for new trial in the only remaining Convictions in the sean. Alice case people remember. The sean else was convicted in a third trial of killing. That detective mulligan ultimately It was drew charges case was dropped. There was never fourth trial thus the netflix documentary trial for the only remaining charges. Convictions were these farm convictions. Here's the end of the response that motion for new trial from suffolk county. Da rich rollins longstanding lesson left by this case is when corruption casts a shadow over entire best investigation and convictions are unjustly obtained. The devastating effects are felt by everyone. It is the opinion of the commonwealth at each of the defendants convictions has been irreversibly compromised. Accordingly the commonwealth avenue court to grant a new trial so that it may file a knowledge these things where they abandon prosecution for the amendment defendants remaining convictions. It is what justice requires signed a racial rollins major moment in a three decade long saga of police corruption elevated to almost an art form in this case a major moment taken away from Channels life so pretty news would argue by great news. it's a trough for. It's never the worth watching. It's really upsetting but it's really worth watching any case. Last friday president biden took a victory lap after the passage of the american rescue plan. Barack obama could've been running alongside them. Is it also was a win for obamacare after surviving eight years of legal attacks in budget cuts at the hands of the gop. One of the most significant parts of the stimulus. Bill is how the plan will expand health care coverage and lower costs by way of the affordable. Care act joining us. Talk through the nuts and bolts of how it will do this and what this means and a time when access to healthcare supremely essential is mit economist. Jonathan gruber john. Gruber is the ford professor of economics. That i might say. And he's the perfect person for this discussion because he was instrumental in creating both of massachusetts healthcare reform and the affordable. Care act itself. His latest book is jump. Starting america breakthrough science can revive economic growth. And the american dream. John gruber good morning. Good morning to here. John so you tell us what the major reforms are and then we can detail each one. What are the big ones. Well i think before. I do that. We have to step back and understand. The context of these reforms understand why they were so necessary. Let let's go back to remember the idea that underlie first round medicare and the affordable care act. Which was that basically. we want. Help out the poor and the middle class right. How about the poor. We're going to stand free coverage Through the medicaid program for the middle class We were going to set up these exchanges and make affordable health insurance and to do that we're going to say if you were sort of lower middle-class tap what you'd have to pay the exchanges you would say look you don't have to pay more than three or four percent of your income all the way up to ten percent of your income that you would just pay what the exchange costs aren't. Don't worry to be pretty reasonable. Because we're gonna have lots of competition and in particular we're gonna have these. New insurance co ops. The big part of the aca. A bunch of new insurance plans can be around the country that provide new competition. Keep costs down well. The problem is the funding for those op with they screwed up on Well i guess what we screwed up on was that funding for the collapse was depending on congressional appropriation and when when republicans took over congress and twenty ten they killed defining. The co ops. So insurance competition went down and prices on exchange. Went way up then you add on top of that. What what did trump do. He got rid of the individual mandate he stopped reaching out to get health insurance pool and they offered lots of fake insurance products that could be purchased outside the exchanges as a result by the time biden was elected health insurance was essentially unaffordable on the aca exchanges. I'm sorry to say so. Let's look at massachusetts. Okay if you wanna plan with a four thousand dollars. Deductible i entered my zipcode in the family for Your plan you know with my wife and is h and we have two teenage kids. It would cost about eighteen thousand dollars a year for four k deductible if our income was say one hundred thousand dollars. That's quite unaffordable. That's more than twenty percent of our income. We'd have to pay on the premium plus deductible and basically the problem is if my films incomes one hundred k. Those income subsidies have run out the things that make insurance affordable for the lower middle class have run out and i'm stuck and that led to this huge cliff where people who are sort of middle class and above suddenly found exchange options unaffordable. And what this bill did. Fundamentally was end. That cliff was to say everyone who buys on the exchange is now capped at eight and a half percent of income. So just fix ideas. If i'm the family making a hundred thousand dollars in massachusetts that plan that last week cost me. Eighteen thousand dollars a year is going to cost me. Eighty five hundred dollars a year so that is a huge win for the middle class once again. If you you're lower if you were low income things didn't change much this bill. This is really a middle-class bill. This is really about bringing the plan back to making health insurance affordable on the exchanges for those sort of middle class family. You know by the way. It is huge and one of the reasons. I'm really glad you wanted to talk about it. Is because we're so fixated on the fourteen hundred dollar checks and supplemental unemployment insurance that we're spending very little attention on the the healthcare changes that amongst the a number that will talk to you about a minute but my understanding of this good news on these subsidies in this cap am i right that there's a also a time cap on this meaning that this is for two years as passed in this bill after which what happens well it goes away and so basically. That's why i want to make two points here one is. Let's always remember always busy to to worry about what what comes next. Let's celebrate what we did which is as you said while we're very excited about the fourteen hundred or three hundred week. The unemployed for many middle income families especially older families especially those at high cost places like massachusetts this is going to be thousands and thousands of of savings on people's insurance. It's gonna take insurance from unaffordable to affordable by my estimate nationally Before we made this change a family. Two hundred k had basically a thirty percent chance spending more than twenty percent of their income to get health insurance exchange. That's dropped roughly zero got. This really big win is the size as we discussed with john king on cnn. Yesterday of history is a guide very narrow margins for president's party disappear and midterms which means if the democrats wait two years to extend these incredibly wonderful changes that you described. Then the likelihood is the republicans will repeal changes. Two years so i guess my question is that's true well because because it's hard to take something away from people marjorie if john mccain had dumb thumbs down instead of thumbs up the whole damn thing would have been taken away. One human being who doesn't exist anymore but any case so why why the two years i guess is my question. Why not just change permanently right okay. The two years was simply it would be. You know it means if you've done it permanently then that would have been tenure score which is five times as large and that would have been taking the one point. Nine trillion occurs so. It's just a around mountaineers. The one point on trillion cap that said there is a serious belief that this will get extended and that either in the next bill back better plan which is an expo coming or in a separate healthcare plan which may be funded by regulating drug prices That this would become permanent but not just this. This is one step. We need to do really something else. Which is we need to make this permanent but we also need to recognize that even for the lower middle income in states outside massachusetts. The out of pocket costs are still too high. You can you know. I would argue that. A family or one hundred thousand dollars can deal with a four thousand dollar deductible not happily but they can deal with it a family. Earning forty thousand dollars can't and that is what they're facing so there's another step to this is just one piece that in talked about this in his campaign we also need to improve and we aren't used in massachusetts people alone can massachusetts get much more generous than nationally so we need to make this permanent and lead to expand the generosity of coverage for the lower middle income people and those things both to be permanent. And that's gonna cost you put those together that's gonna cost you on the order of four hundred billion dollars over a decade now. That's real money. That's big enough that it was too big including this bill. It is still small relevant. A lot of the things we're talking about doing. And and and i think it's an important priority fighting for so what are the other important Reforms john so the other important pieces in this bill are to basically once again. Try to broaden. The pool of people are in the exchanges. Remember the whole idea from the care less his bargain exchange healthy and sick. That'll keep prices down for. Everyone is in the exchange and the problem is the series of changes made over the last four years. Have broken that bargain and only the sicker in the pool. And what we need to do is to broaden that pool and what what what what this law does. It allows unemployed people. So if you've lost your job you can now access subsidize coverage on the exchange It opened up an open enrollment period. So people been struggling to find. Insurance cannot re open canal reinvestigate low cost options on the exchange and it expanded outreach to reach out and get those healthy people and make them realize incredible options they have on the exchange. John have really good change. It'll improve the system. We have to take a break when we come back. I want to discuss this other change about trying to convince these sadistic dozen governors who never expanded medicaid coverage to give them an incentive to do the right thing so stick around john. Yeah we're talking about the affordable care act. mit economist. jonathan gruber going to keep talking to him after the break into eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back in boston. Public radio jim brady and marjorie. And if you're and we're talking with mit economist. John gruber about what. The american rescue plan means for the affordable care act and health coverage. In general john gruber let. Let's talk about the opportunity for states. And i think it's twelve states. Refused to expand their medicaid coverage even the federal government was going to pay the vast majority of the funding for this. What's going on with that well What the act did For those states and once again remember we talked about a lot in the show. that's really political malpractice that these states are essentially turning down Billions of dollars from the government to cover their poor citizens at very low state. Cost so with. This law is to up the bride. This law has a temporary two year boost in overall federal reimbursement to those states. If they choose to expand medicaid. We don't know if that's enough. It is temporary and these states have turned out a lot of money before This is really marjorie natural. Segue to the other thing we did talk about. You know the big the the elephant in the room here which is which is the debate over the public option right didn't get included in the Ara and is going to be central focus of the next round of potentially see reforms. And by the way. I would say you know. Getting sixty votes is one thing. I'm not even sure there are fifty votes for something. The joe biden campaigned on. I wanna i don't wanna give trip to this medicaid thing though not only was it a malpractice by these dozen governors. Their contention was wasn't ideological objection to federal money. Coming in. it's because they had to pay an infinite small share than it was ten percent of the total cost of this expansion and they didn't wanna spend anything my understanding. Is this bribe as you call it. And i think that's what it is. And i am all for it. Basically takes that argument away from these pathetic governors and says we're gonna put the bolt bill for the whole damn thing they'll be zero cost to you in the short term these first couple of years and you still have people like this this tate reeves from mississippi. Who was twisting himself into pretzel trying to explain why he should deny. I think it's three hundred thousand mississippians who have expanded health coverage if he accepts this federal money i am right by the way that he essentially is taking away. Any state financial obligation if these dozen governors agreed medicaid expansion. Is that right He is his. He's doing more than that. So remember the way the law's written is the federal government ninety percent of the cost and remember our. Let's go back to our basic economics when the federal government sends steed a dollar that improves the state economy. More more than dollar So by even if you just look at the savings hospitals of not having to pay for care for the uninsured not to mention the boost to economy is getting billions of federal dollars. Even ninety percent is already a win win for the state with this law does. It doesn't just go to one hundred percent. It raises the whole reimbursement rate. Not just for these expansions but the entire program in a way that you know so basically is really an incredible bribe. It is temporary and but the state's arguments it is just. It is really sort of violation of the food. You share responsibility. A representative of an elected representatives to have a policy that could make the state better off financially while helping slow it's income citizens and they're turning it down because the law is the president's name they don't like you know what was incredible. I remember seeing stories before the pandemic happen of people camping out all night long in tennessee member this because they had a free clinic in tennessee and people who poor people who had no insurance were they are in pup tents in a parking lot. When get into this clinic in the morning. It was like parking all night long. We used to joke about people doing it for a day after thanksgiving you know black friday At best buy i mean. It is amazing that they would do that to their own people. I think it's some four million plus people have no insurance. It's it's it is i mean. Basically there is something on the order of three to four million people who would gain insurance access to insurance through expanding medication states. That haven't done it and once again at literally no cost probably a gain to the state and i think it does raise raises larger issues. We've talked about on the show. And you're very focused on about the broken nature of politics in this country It speaks to the same set of issues that are coming up as we think about voter suppression It's basically this notion of these people. We help our other. The folks we need to help and so we are willing to literally turn down a free opportunity to help them. And that is just unfortunate. I think the big question is giving them the people that can help. Why can't we get those folks to rally and get representatives representatives who will serve their interests and that john. They have rallied numbers. State's the closest being main where when people like paul page there are no government. Governor said no to the medicaid expansion. They put the question on the ballot and they passed it and they're not the only state so to the credit of activists in real people. They have stood up to governors and their ideological sickness by saying we want to be healed. And and i think three or four states at least have been added to the medicaid expansion rolls over the objection of their governors. Because people have have done the right thing. So i hope that There's a lot of spotlight on this year before you go. We only have a minute or two left. Return to this public option thing do you. I hate to be negative throughout this. Because you're right a lot of things in this This expansion spectacular do you disagree with my analysis of the public option thing. it's not just the republicans the mansions of the world. We're gonna have a real problem with this now. I think once again if you think of the public option the weights typically vision which is literally people can buy medicare and the exchange. I don't see how it gets fifty. Democrats supporting I agree that said. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Let's remember the reason. I started with this long introduction about the original of co-op plans on the exchanges. Those could have done a lot of good. Let's think about ways where the government can induce more competition on the exchange more options without. And i think that can get fifty votes. I think we can get fifty votes or something. The government takes a more active role in making sure. People have more choices. And there's more competition and lower premiums on the exchanges. It doesn't go all the way to medicare to do it to do a good job. John those yet another great tutorial. Thanks for you bet my pleasure. Jonathan gruber joins us regularly. He's the ford professor of economics. Mit was instrumental in creating both the massachusetts health care reform and the affordable care. Act his latest book. Jump starting america. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth and the american dream. Thanks again to john grooten. Jonathan gruber wrote the allies. Asking you about baker's vaccine eligibility plan for the rest of the population is finally know when you're going to be eligible for vaccine around here after the governor's press availability this morning. You're listening to eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public radio. Jim brady martin regan this morning. Few minutes ago governor baker released the complete vaccination schedule for the remaining groups in the state ago to the end. Starting april nineteenth will more blanks in a minute. The rest of the state's population. Everybody aged sixteen or older will become eligible to get a vaccine. We're taking your calls asking if this comes as a relief. Is it sooner than you anticipated. Remember the president. Just said the other day may i. Everybody be eligible which was two months earlier than he had said a few weeks early july and now were april. Nineteenth is the date by which everybody over sixteen sixteen and over is eligible Where does this place you among your friends and family. How's it going to change things for your number's eight. Seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven limited. Skip the rest of the details. Starting this coming monday. The twenty second all essential workers and anybody's sixty or over is sixty or over over sixty sixty and over sixty end over. Thank you marjorie. Monday april fifth if you have one or more co morbidity and you're fifty five or over you're eligible and as i said patriots april nineteenth. We opened the floodgates. Everybody's sixteen over you only feel about this. It doesn't get your shot fast while may fascinating expected doesn't move you up the line further than you were but it's sort of like baker starting the pre-registrations site last week. I strongly believe it re reduces the anxiety dramatically. If you're a four by the way you could have been what was it now. Sixty four years old right and have no idea where you were in the order here. Now you know so. Even if it's not as fast as you were hoping even i have to say is pretty accelerated pace. Which i think is great which i assume means we're getting more vaccines ear it. I think it's comforting to a lot of people to know where they are on the line before it was just crossing your fingers and opening so good news good for baker doing this good for baker. Finally doing the centralized pre-registration site last week. We want to know if you share my perspective on how people are gonna react to this. Eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine eighty nine seventy so. It's great that he's moving from sixty five to sixty down to fifty five. You don't want to see somebody. Frankly is healthy and twenty four getting the vaccine before someone who's sixty three here there's some sequential age thing before we get to april nineteenth when everybody sixteen and over his eligible. I think he did the right thing. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy i. It's going to be great for planning. You know you if you are able at sixteen and older than that to start access in the vaccines in april. Okay figure maybe most people can get their shot. Actually end of april beginning of may if by the end of may almost everybody is going to be able to get vaccinated except of course for the state police who are third term or not getting vaccinated. Some believe was third. it's outrageous it's outrageous and. I hope that that was a lot of people that are refusing to get the vaccine and i hope that there are going to be the vaccine. I hope to get into sporting events. Like gillette or fenway. I hope so. I hope so. That makes you can have a reasonable summer. People have been waiting to plan their weddings to see their grandkids to just do some reasonable traveling. You know you'd be able to do it. I think you're making leave. I don't know that the dates you're talking about in terms of senator passing. What i do know is the the dates you'll be. Eligible are hard now and they're written in stone. Which is i think. Terrific and again i think will reduce the anxiety level. That virtually everybody. I know has felt or is feeling eight. Seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy fairhaven diane. You're on the phone. Welcome diane hi good morning. Thank you once again for having me on. I'm relieved mother of a grown twenty two year old son who has asthma. He and his friends. It's been planning since pre kovin a two week trip to portugal from music festival. And then you know and they've got all planned and paid for And young people being with they are gonna go come hell or high water and of course my thing was no. You can't go to portugal without being oxygenated. Good lord they let you in Anyway so. I'm very relieved that i don't have to continue to play the bad guy. And the fun spoiler and he can go and i can feel safe knowing that he's been vaccinated hopefully our country and the rest of the world will continue to beat this back so that everybody can get back to. I mean that's not normal for me. I wasn't twenty two going to portugal. Let me say. I don't wanna i don't want to destroy your optimism portugal's one of those countries that has put a hold on. Its astra zeneca vaccine there so It's great your kid will be in the vaccine lineup here in massachusetts but make sure things are safe for his going to come Concert time diane. Thank you for your call. Eight seven seven three zero one eight nine seven. That's a perfect. I call 'cause what i basically said is their kid can plan is opposed to just doing it and being a what's the word if you're not cautious unconscious is that a word or whatever. It is okay round reckless here. You know that the likelihood is good as you say by mid to late may interfere a healthy twenty two year old. You're likely going to be vaccinated. Eight seven seven one. Eighty nine seventy I'm a of bitchy reader. Must be the irish in me. I everybody says at the end because of covid nineteen and most everybody says no services will be delayed or we'll do something later we'll have a thing for all those people who've lost family members during this time and bound able to have you know a memorial. That's that's gonna be a big change up to. I couldn't agree more. It's a wonderful important point by the way. One of our colleagues back in brighton. If you listen to the end of the show yesterday there was a lot of talk about. What's that show called gardeners want whatever whatever it's called the gardeners whatever the star one of our colleagues said monty. Don would look far better than jim. Founding pack well that's that's a debatable question. But maybe we'll have the opportunity to find out. Elena you're in rhode island. You're on boston public radio. Welcome helen how are you. Hi i love your show on the road. So i really get to. I get an opportunity to listen. And so i work in healthcare and i was i have seen back in january And my husband is Under sixteen Our daughter we're able to save because we haven't really lost connection with her. She lives nearby but our son lives in framingham and at christmas time We he came down because he and his partner they were both working from home. They really had hadn't had any contact with anyone. They were Feeling comfortable they wore masks and that sort of thing But we're really looking forward to seeing Again as soon as my husband can get vaccinated and you know just just those family things play games and cards and watch movies so yeah. We're looking forward to that. But thank you for taking my call. Thank you thanks for listening. We appreciate it. Thank you very much for calling. Eight seven seven three one. Eight nine seventy we're talking about. We had the lineup. Now we know when people are going to be able to get vaccinated thank goodness for the people. Eligible be eligible to be eligible decided to get to get get vaccinated. There's a big group people when they get to the sixteen and over that's Two point five million people be newly algebra right it's at large while that's says arrested auto gains access. Starting april nineteenth at which point two point five million will be newly eligible but just in time for the summer bathroom from gardeners world is the thank you very much high both. Hi thanks so much for taking my call So i am thrilled. That my husband and i And our seventeen year old daughter will now know when we're all But we have an eight year old. And he's like what about me and of course the thing is sleep overs. That's you know what he wants to do. I think he'll have a different sleepover every night. For like a month when the finally clears up but But just to raise point of like families that have one kid that sixteen or over and one or more that are under So i know. They're doing their best with the trials and everything. But it'll be really great. i'll feel really valid. Even if even if it's a ways off and coming down the line just to know when our whole family can be vaccinated. Beth you probably know this as a cambridge person but a right down the street from wherever you live Moderna started trials for young under sixteen year olds. I think it was two days ago. So i don't know what. The timetable is a nominee people. They need in the trials. But we're finally moving in the direction that your eight year old can is going to see. Something may not be imminent but it's going to be happening so Is good news on that front to beth. Thank you very much for the call. We appreciate it okay. We are talking about the The governor's announcement today at the order. Everybody's going to be able to get their vaccination in the timeline at least be eligible. Jim says for the vaccination and join us was this mean to you guys. Eight seven seven three one nine. Seventy pr w. h. Dot org or tweet us at boss public radio looking back to boston public radio jim brady and marjorie. And if you're just tuning in we're taking your calls on the vaccination timeline. It was announced by the governor. This morning released the schedule for the remaining groups and starting april nineteenth. Everybody and older is eligible to get a vaccine. We're taking your calls. What does this mean for you. I don't just mean concretely in terms of where you are online. But what's it doing for your psyche by the way margaret. I think your number was wrong before it's not two point five million. In that last group it sounded large. Governor baker is just asked the question how many people become eligible on. I'm sorry you are on the twenty second. You are right. Eight hundred and fifty thousand people on the twenty second and that is the group of people who are this is next monday who were sixty or older or essential workers right and then the large group you alright comes on april nineteenth but by april nineteenth patriots day. Every single person. Sixteen and over will be eligible to have a vaccine. Yeah i mean. I think we're looking forward to a terrific summer. Evelyn thank you for calling. You'll have one before you go ahead. Can you imagine a summer. Where every single person you know is worrying. Gbh fanny pack. I mean i just can't even imagine the the the tableau that would be like go ahead. Evelyn urine western. Welcome very show marjorie. Jim and i'm calling. Because i'm so excited for my grandsons. Who ones that. They're both one's going into college and they weren't able to work last summer because they and the camp was closed and this summer my grandson. Who twenty is just gonna be ecstatic when hears this news. Because it means that he'll be able to work at that camp so i'm very grateful to the baker for opening up to that point about camp. Think about all. The people mentioned the people who earn their living by running summer camps. The kids will afford that every year. One of my kids was like you know. Went to camp forever until they basically threw out because she was old. I mean it's such as those the ymca camps a lot of reasonable and the very fun you make all these great friends at last a lifetime. So is the real deal. Jana marlboro hygiene june hijab. Marjorie thanks for taking my call for a long time i times. Don't you thank you so i had I i registered on the registry last friday. I got a call. I want to be contacted by telephone. I got a call a robo call immediately. That i was registered. I got another call last night. That i would A robocall that. I could call up to make an appointment today. I got I call the two one one. And i needed a registration number which had been given to me on this robo call so fast and so blurred that i couldn't get it so i said to the woman. Can you just look me up by my name and my other information. They can't do that so if you want to make an appointment. Excuse me need that registration number. And i could not get it so i was up the creek and So anyway the person that i talked to said she couldn't help me and then i called back and i got someone else who said that she would reregister me and just say that. I wanted to be contacted by email instead. And that might work for me so i just wanted people to know if you select you. Want to be contacted by phone. You might have this problem. They give you the registration number so quickly you can't write it down and they never repeat it. You know i tell you. Jane hadn't told us the story. I would say on that. Well no in addition to that. And i agree with that and thank you for the call. Anybody who has should choose email as the vehicles or contact exactly see. I haven't writing not only so that you have a record of what they told you but also don't forget so again. I know some of email people tax thing. But if you do get a written record thanks when you show up at your vaccination site too. I mean it's it's not everybody's nightmare that get to the vaccination site and this is sorry you're not registered station like if you have something in your hand it makes you feel the dream i had last night. I wouldn't even brought it up if you said that. Talk about a nightmare. I'm dreaming get vaccination side of and thinking about forever. I get your minute before my vaccination and the person who's checking people in says. I'm sorry nobody. With the fanny. Pack can come in today and margaret. Car you're next. I'm just playing your game marjorie. There's a lot of great literature on fanny packs off. If you want to join this and take a little bit of an apt description of a fanny pack is why you want to donate ten bucks a month that they may be ridiculous which they are but they're essential jim their function. If you don't feel good calling it a fanny pack. That's a little bit demeaning. You know what you can call it. No a bag of bamberg. That's far more appealing margaret and car. You're next on boston public radio. We're talking the governor's announcement this morning. Giving dates for everybody. Sixteen and over to become eligible for vaccination. Hi margaret margaret. Three strikes and margaret. We'll put margaret on hold. We'll get another call in about thirty seconds. Eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy s. I said at the beginning of this thing. Centralized pre-registration was long. Incoming finally came. Was it last week or the week before. That was an anxiety reducer and i think this reduces that anxiety for those who are unvaccinated. Even more alex nip. Switch your next on. Boston public radio. Hi jim coyle hi alexander. I'm the owner of armies drugstore. And we've been a vaccine provider and we've been able to help vaccinate Over five or six thousand members in our community was done loud. Eleven thousand doses cheeses. That is amazing. I'm really excited to hear that. We have some certainty on eligibility criteria. But since that announcement. I'll probably got twelve or thirteen emails asking if people can make appointments. And i still have no clarity on availability of doses. So has anyone from the state. Talked about the supply of doses. Are we expecting a big influx of supplies and able to help go out to communities and not have to send people to math sites. Well i sure as hell am not the person to answer your question. But alex i will just read you. What our colleagues say. The governor said this morning this week. The state is receiving a modest increase. Was his word in supply. I those one hundred and seventy thousand that includes the unexpected eight thousand of j. j. in total the con- wealth will receive three hundred and sixteen first and second doses as part of the state allocation. So i don't know the answer alex. And obviously by the way you're obviously state provided not directly from the feds. Is that correct correct. We're we're state provided We've worked with a lot of public health departments with don vaccines for sixty. Five plus seventy five plus congregate care facility of We're gonna senior housing. So mean people are appreciative. We do curbside shot. So people don't have to get out of their cars. I truly and strongly believe that independent pharmacy is an untapped. Resource state of west virginia was hugely successful program in rural parts like utilizing independent pharmacy. And i don't know why we're not using that more in our state alex to break. We only have thirty seconds field to be doing what you're doing. It's got to be incredibly satisfying. Despite i guess the frustration about the uncertainty of the source. It's got to be great is it. Yes great to alcohol community that we're apart it's incredibly frustrating because two thousand a day and i don't have any inventory supply. Hope you're doing two thousand a day soon but it's great. You're doing what you're doing alex. Thanks for calling. I hope that answers soon quickly. We discussed the email from phyllis who said she got. The same robocall couldn't understand the recording but when she called the to one one number they were able to help her with her name. And she's vacs at fenway on monday afternoon. So i guess there's some variation anyway up next as migra crisis continues in the border biden calls on. Fema talk. Juliet came about that up next on boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gb h. boston public radio string of countries have stopped using astra zeneca. Vaccines concerns causes. Blood clots but the european union and world health organization save decisions or premature and not based on science medical start. Capital adjoins discussed. The liberty concerns over gastric same and whether new research from uk varying of covid nineteen should delays will. A patchwork of abolitionist. Newspapers in boston. Provide anti slavery literature throughout the eighteen hundreds now the emancipator founded by a former slave owner who became an ardent abolitionist will once more shit the narrative of anti-racism for bus donations. Thanks to a partnership with the boston globe and boston. University center for anti racist research globe editorial elder being venka trauma will join us to discuss that head on boston. Public radio eighty nine seven g b h and. You're listening to our number two boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h logan. Jim what are you doing for saint patrick's day eating cabbage. You're great hope. You're dying it really bright green. Join us not what am i doing. I'm eating your leftover carriages. We've discussed earlier before the show join us. Online latest national security headlines juliette cayenne juliet's analyst for cnn former assistant secretary of the department of homeland security and she's faculty chair of the homeland security program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government could afternoon juliette it afternoon to both of you. Juliette great great to talk to you. So if i tell us about this terrible murder spree involved. These atlanta areas spas left eight people dead cooling. Asian women is. They're thinking this is an anti asian he crime or this involves spa workers or do we know anymore today. We don't spend yeah. I mean there's been an arrest and there was a press conference. Just now i think well you all were on air. There was a statement made by the police that he had had a really bad day yesterday. So i don't know if there's a if they're suggesting some triggering event. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying this is what we're looking at Six asian woman. Dead out of eight suggests a racially motivated crime but again he also was known to a frequented these facilities so we just don't know yet but but taking a step back the reason why anti asian crime and a hate crime should be on. The table is of course because of the rise of crimes against asian-americans hate crimes. Violent crimes property crimes against the asian american community Since covid started and the idea of china plague virus all of these terminologies that were being used by the previous administration is directly linked in. I'm just quoting the fbi directly linked in terms of timing with this. You know huge increase in in asian crime so much so that even before this incident president biden mentioned it in his address to the nation last week by the way what he said coming after mr kong flu what biden said was just beautiful and focused and exactly what a president do you. I'm so glad. Julia you put a broader gloss this. Because i'm worried. I think people are asking the wrong question. The first question of course is what marjorie. Which is was this yet. Another horrible american hate but as you mentioned even if it is not it's going to feed that the note even if it turns out they say whatever the sheriff said the guy's got a sex addiction holidays when people who are the predilection to do things like kill that eighty four year old grandma grandfather that tie in san francisco or or attack that woman. Nancy toe. I think her name was in new york. Eighty three years old another asian american person. This just feeds that so regardless of what motivated this guy. People have got to be sensitive to the stuff in the last thing i'll say is last night. I played a little sound. Not just from nancy toe the eighty three year old who had been attacked but her daughter lindo who said because of what happened to her mother does happen to other asian americans she and her kidder frayed to go out of the house. So even if you're not a victim of this incredibly expanding anti asian american hate campaign in this country There's a chilling effect on your ability to just move about freely and feel safe so good for biden and kamala harris this morning. I think that's right. I mean. I think anti-asian hate is such a part of america's history from immigration laws the twentieth century. To of course komatsu and the internment of japanese-americans to attacks against southeast asian americans in the in after nine eleven because people must mistook not that it would be justified if he did it against the muslim community but people must miss mistaken them for a members of the muslim community so that it is a a line in american history that we don't talk about as much because of Because of the history of african americans and slavery in this country. But we should. And i agree with you. That part of all of these conspiracies once again being very careful here as i often am about motivation. What certain things are but the reason why anti asian hate crime is on the table for what happened in atlanta is part of the conspiracy theory that we see online amongst these groups is not simply. That cova came from china. But there's actually a very strong suspicion that this was bread and manufactured in a chinese lab and then brought here by asians or asian americans. And so that's a there's no proof of that of course but that is and that's a strong sentiment within that whole sort of swamp of conspiratorial theories regarding regarding covid. So we'll find out more on this is not a hate crime in the same way but almost every year. And you hear this in colleges. This resentment against asian kids in colleges people that are resenting the success of asian kids in college. It's kind of an under the radar sort of thing but You know. I remember hearing that a million years ago when i was in college. And you still hear it now. Let's do more. we're back with. Rudy giuliani well. But there are times reporting on russian interference in two thousand and twenty election including Influencing donald trump's associates and i associate named is of course rudy giuliani. Was he the duke of putin cronies. Yes so so. And the intelligence assessment about the twenty twenty campaign Is absolutely clear. And i wanna just. I want to highlight a few things about the report that came out yesterday. The first is that we were sold. Something factually inaccurate. I mean. I know that shouldn't shock anyone anymore but we member when they came out with the intelligence report they said china iran and russia and they said them equally this is the previous intelligence team ratcliffe and trump. That was factually inaccurate. That the only real first of all they didn't see much with the chinese but the only real influence peddling was by the russians and the russians got super smart and twenty twenty as compared to twenty twenty six two thousand sixteen in twenty twenty. All they needed to do was to and this is just this. Is the chicken egg theory of this. They need to need to amplify the crap coming out of the giuliani's and others so that that then gets spun up on facebook and other social media platforms or they feed fox and giuliani and others. As the report suggests information. Fake information about biden about Fake votes the amplified by the giuliani's the world and what people have to remember is the conservative media is looking for validate to save the things that they want to be set. So so it's a cycle in which the russians push it to giuliani. Giuliani says it. And then it's promoted on fox news and other conservative media outlets. So you have this. This basically fox becoming a tool of the of the russians and vice versa in many ways so it was It was it was cheap. And all i have to say is he lost but So he had all of russia behind him any loss. But one other thing is as i've been saying to you all in on air all the time saying the the idea of the big lie the idea that the vote was stolen is animated from an anti semitism and white supremacy that that black and hispanic votes don't count and unless we just see it as that we are going to view this as just mere politics. It's not is politics about disenfranchising voters which were seen all throughout the country. Which republicans are trying to do that is being pushed by the russians as well because the russians would certainly much rather have a white supremacy party in power than than not. And they're there. I i stop saying they're willing dupes. They're they're unwilling. Oops i mean this is a this is a conspiracy. Concerted effort by senators. Like senator johnson. Donald trump donald trump junior. Eric trump all of them and they were called out yesterday so we should inferior to mr giuliani couple of things one. He wasn't name but says it's clear that's what they're talking about a number two. You got to give them a tad of credit. I know this won't be popular. But the fact is that giuliani is busy lying on a bed putting his hand in his pants in the borat movie and he still has time to be a duke for the russian disinformation campaigns. I mean the fact that he can do all. This is really remarkable. I would argue. I don't know what to say about giuliani's and this is a different issue. Obviously dershowitz this is you. There was a moment in which they exited gracefully. And i think just the power of wanting to be talked about for some of these men is so strong that they just you know. Get into these into this. Oh i'm now in the center of things which is giuliani clearly wanted to be talking to juliette cayenne our national security expert. If i may just for second certainly. And i mean this sincerely no one has ever probed. This giuliani behavior in this film is deeply. It seemed to me as its merits. He didn't know he was in a film. There is a young want while he knew he when he was in the in the main room of his hotel suite or whatever he knew he was being interviewed he goes into a bedroom with the young woman. Lies down on the bed and as his hands in his pants in front of and and this is the lawyer for the president of the united states. And it's all sort of we laugh at it like we just did a minute ago but really i mean. This was a crime in waiting and at borat not run. Sasha baron cohen run. It was he who think to rescue her. We might have another the potential criminal. Charge against rudy giuliani apart. From what may be in the future case just wanted to get that i think. Do you ever have those moments where you'll be walking. Oh it's you know things are still crazy but less crazy than they were before you just like you. Just have this moment where you're like latest second julie. Onny move a young woman in front of the four seasons flowers landscapes and we and we sort of talked about it like makes earth. It's so nice being back to as i say. Make naps create again. But it is still crazy. Obviously what happened in atlanta of see all of these lawsuits and everything that is still going on. And there's there's still so many unanswered questions about two thousand sixteen Bed bed bed may get unearthed in all of these investigations but We know that we know now what we long suspected which is putin had an easy way to to do influence peddling twenty twenty and the easiest way was straight to trump but like why why why why have the middlemen. Why have complicated cyber attacks now can do it. Just go straight to the guy at or his people. We're talking to our national security expert. Juliet keep talking to her after this break. Relinquish into eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public radio. Tim brady margery eagan. We're continuing our discussion with our national security expert. Juliette connie can. I just say i'm sorry before we get to serious stuff you can. I donate not to get the fanny pack like is there like an op. I you know. I think it has lasted too long. You guys got into the fanny pack. Please okay. I'm gonna challenge everyone. I'm gonna. I'll give. I'll give five hundred hundred right now for no no fan lack. Okay now that you brought us. I just wanna to say in defense. That the fanny pack saying he's intelligent liberal thinkers like all of us could be so uninformed about fanny packs around for fifty years incredibly useful for hiking skiing only time you need to carry a lump carry keys while cetera wearing one is not the least bit emasculating. I'm sure i'm sure that is a sentiment. He actually. I'm just telling you people. We are coming out of our houses soon. We got up our game. That like the fanny pack. You know that you're giving out fanny pack now is just. it's distressing. it's like another year inside. you're just asking people to stay inside will ignore that and just thank you for your generous five hundred dollars time back to a really serious note. I saw you talking about this. I think it was what. You're talking about on anderson cooper last night someplace on cnn. Finally finally the feds may be holding somebody accountable. Maybe not for the death of officers. Sick nick but for something. Tell us what happened please. So assume to two men who apparently knew each other before from school of meet up in. dc we don't know what they conspired yet so. The charges against him are just assault. Just are assault right now. We do know at least in the affidavit that everything excuse me the indictment that they are That they talked about this bear spraying and about spraying the police officers now. Why this sick. Nick was had that reaction we don't know but in criminal law you sort of you take the victim as he is so if he has a reaction to it is foreseeable that a that a police officer would have a reaction because member. He goes back to his office. And then i think he later dies and so will We so basically. We're waiting to see. I think one of the reasons why they did. The assault was was because they probably have information from family and friends about what they were talking about. And then you want to know whether there was intent to do bodily harm so that's sort of what's going on these conspiracy. Charges are sitting out there. Because i think they're still gathering evidence. Remember this is what the fbi has said. Now this is one of the largest criminal investigations in us history. Now we have over three hundred over. Three hundred people have been indicted. And as i say it ain't enough like you know that we ever walked inside gets some criminal penalty like it's just period but we still don't know how died. Topsy results are originally originally. It was blunt force trauma from a fire extinguisher number and then and then they changed it. But i don't think they know how but but what they wanna do is get the assault charges at the assault. In fact was was the salt in fact was about a caused caused some bodily harm. So that's where we are right now and this is great because as i keep saying in terms of isolating this white supremacy. Of course we're talking in light of the land and we don't know what happened These these charges that can't get them out of each one of them and then you know the family and friends isolating them and giving them up instead of each one of them served as just another counter to the nurturing of racism that that we've been living under four years if not more. I mean for for our history but from the white house in the oval office for four plus years. I just have a minute left. I wanna say so far. And i hesitate to say because i don't want to. It's obvious you're so right when you said early on. We talked about deterring future january six on a small scale or large scale. Because there's been very few since that aggressive prosecution would deter a lot of these people. And i have to say it has been aggressive and so far you've been born completely the that again it may change but so far it is amazing that were whatever two and a half months down from this and i thought this is going to become a regular occurrence and i think it's because a lot of these people as sick and depraved and racist as they are are real people who don't want to go to jail and i think the fact that the feds are pursuing this aggressively as they have great has been very preventive. So you were right from out before we re leaving. Now ask do a show i ellen. Donigi emailed me and she matched my five hundred and she also is paying that much to not get back in line to me is. Nobody wants fanny and just leaving with ellen's wise words do those beautiful ellen. Thank you thank you. Paul jesse mail jim. He wants to see when the gbh socks the cargo shorts that t shirt this blog and of course your yeah he wants to know if you're gonna if jimmy make another one hundred twenty donation or two to forty on top of his initial one twenty. He just wants to make sure. Jim doesn't have some fine print will told you to one twenty becomes to forty and you get the photo juliet. Thank you to your friend. Three muscle later. Thank you very much juliet cam. She joins us every week. She's now for seen a former assistant secretary of the department security in fact with the comets. Your child a child government. Thanks juliet coming up. Despite cobras more american travelers are taking to the skies medical ethicist kaplan about vaccines vaccine passports. What is going on in the world of corona virus. That's next eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio Welcome back to boston public radio. Margery eagan jim. Braude krona virus gives new meaning to people who are a flight risk joining us in line and talk about an uptick in air travel. Why we need cove reparations and everything you need to know about the astra zeneca vaccine from eight z's medical ethicist art caplan wearing a kiss me. I'm vaccinated t-shirt. I should say honor of the day and vaccination. He's the doctors william f. In virginia connolly mini chair and director of the division of medical ethics at nyu school of medicine. You look fetching. My saint patrick's day friend really do happy. Happy kiss me vaccinated day. Do you art caplan. Glad taught you always so you in a colleague. Sarah rosenthal wrote a fascinating piece about horrid reparations pointing out that we've done this kind of thing before with ski airman and also the tuskegee studying rather syphilis study and with nine eleven so tell us about that. you know. it's interesting that article that basically says we need a commission kind of like the national cova commission and then we need reparations program really has gotten some steam. it's gotten picked up and sent around all over the country. I've seen it appearing. Lots of newspapers everywhere. So the general idea is this We know that covid has been the cause of what five hundred thirty five thousand deaths and climbing that demands a national investigation. We also know that many people have been harmed and injured because of if you will malfeasance on the part of government officials and others. Let's just say healthcare workers who burned out or need mental health care because they were overwhelmed. You could look certainly people who generally need mental health because they lost loved ones in this mass Solder so i think it's time to begin preparation. You know normally what happens. Is these groups get together and they file lawsuits and government slowly reacts and forms of commission and four years down the road somebody finally decides you know. Okay we'll we'll put together a commission and then ten years from now somebody starts to get some money. That's that's not the right way to do this. We know that we well. We know we should figure out who is to blame. did cuomo fudge. The numbers are nursing. Home did trump Basically we push forward ideas about Not wearing masks that cost lives and then let people make claims against that and say you killed my mother or you harmed my mental health. It's gonna be a long tough contentious process but let's get going with it already. That's basically what we're saying. Let's prep now. You know a art when you find out who's at fault. I mean i've been saying for months. I think that the behavior of the president was homicidal when we read. Deborah burks wining a couple of days ago on abc. She thinks about the bleach moment every day. So why doesn't she say something when it mattered. But when i read your piece saying to myself even if we don't lay fault on parts of the government why shouldn't this be a no full thing. Why shouldn't be responsibility. Even some were to conclude that nobody can imagine this but nobody was a great fall. It's just a horrible endemic. Yeah well you could do that way too. I'm not against that. You might just decide. In addition to biden of relief ex x who system. Better make sure that everybody is insured. Everybody's got health insurance and and we better expand our mental health services. You know where we're week so we've got to do something if we're going to give those services and i am concluding that way that i would even argue. We went through. National trauma needs mental support. Odd again. but it's going to take a committee. Were commissioner somebody in this. Otherwise it's just gonna fester. I love you just want clare who the government pays this. Well i mean again. You might even assign blame. I guess to some employers who didn't behave properly or nursing home counties or you will. That's exactly what you want to sort out okay. I'm talking art caplan or medical ethicist so tell us about this. Astra vanagas vaccine senecas. Accuse me there's been concerned about blood clots what's going on to rizzoli day for an honor of i'm vaccinated on saint patrick's day. I'm going to get a little Crabby here astrazeneca has a vaccine. That's been out and being used in britain. It's their vaccinate the entire country with that vaccine. It's their company by the way and they contracted for portland have nationalistic reasons. Rest of europe kind of bet on astrazeneca to france. Germany italy the whole eu. There's been report. Maybe a few days ago that some people had blood clot problems with that means. Probably his blood clots in the lungs that caused health issues for them. Post the vaccination. That led germany france and italy and now many other countries far as indonesia to suspend the astra zeneca vaccine. The data is crazy because the rate of blood clots is lower in people aided than it is in the general population. Get blood clots. In other words. You could argue. The vaccine prevented 'cause there fewer people on average getting them. I haven't seen any reports of blood clots and other vaccines. That's true and i'm not sure they're even being tracks is going on. But here's the venting. Part astrazeneca rightly or wrongly. That vaccine is now impugned. The government's gonna examine it but it is never gonna come back. Europe is rife with anti vaccine sentiment as much as we have it here doubts hesitancy. It's worse there historically. They've been way behind the us on vaccination rates generally. This really is going to set that entire continent back. It's a horrible situation. Because they all planned on using the astrazeneca vaccine and even if the government's conclude which. I just did that. It's probably not due to the vaccine these problems and they roll it out. I don't think they're going to recover. I think this is a real mess. I think it's even worse than what you described them. Totally with you on your part. I mean by the way for those that are annoy astra zeneca hasn't applied for emergency use authorization here yet but it seems to me that while we obsess on j. and j. versus pfizer versus moderna versus astra zeneca the average person in this country. I think has more important things to do than to differentiate between vaccines when they see on the evening news. That one of those vaccines is killing people somewhere in europe. Even though it's not according to you. And i read the same research. You're citing don't you think it trickles down in a negative way onto all vaccine has an nc even in this country when people up on this i think that it starts to undermine trust and by the way you may not remember this but they do in europe astra zeneca with the one that had the missed dosed mistake where they gave half. Yes yes and then. It turned out that in the company announced with his. Hey good news. You'll only take a half dose and then the second shot and things turn out better. It was a screw up. They never confessed to it so they already have a shadow over the vaccine. Look even if vaccine. Hesitancy isn't affected here because that's not a vaccine likely to appear here any time real soon if an entire continent doesn't get vaccinated at a high rate gigantic incubator sitting there for you know spread. Well that's what. I was wondering. If they're not going to be using the astrazeneca. How quickly can they get a different vaccine. Well merger you know you and i. We've all talked here about vaccine with other places. Do we vaccinate ourselves first. And then so most people have it in mind. You're gonna have to share with cameroon in zimbabwe and Molly we're gonna have to share with europe forget africa the most likely if he will travel routes economic roots. Go back to the eu. Britain's going to feel pressured to share so this is going to be a big foreign policy problem. i. I'm going to be blunt here. It's one thing to say we're vaccinating ourselves and we'll get to cameroon later very different thing to say we're vaccinating ourselves and we'll get to italy germany and france later i just realized before. Move to the next subject in light of the fact that i called trump homicidal a minute ago i should mention that the last night on fox news he finally did say equivocally that his followers. Everybody should get the vaccine the laid which was. Oh you mean the man who did it in secret yet. Exactly you did say that. He he said that a lot of the people that aren't getting the vaccine people that voted for him and he thought that that meant through. So so are kaplan this. Next story is really upsetting about these rating stars for nursing homes. Apparently this rating program is run by the us centers for medicare and medicaid services. But they relied on a mix of self reported data plus examinations by health inspectors but self reported data who doesn't give themselves five stars. No one again with this is one of the finest radio broadcast. I'm aware of world five star mark. Maybe i mean nursing. Homes have been a mess forever. They're a mess before covid. And i you know when. I ask people. Would you rather spend a year in a federal prison or year in a nursing home. You know which way they vote. Put me in prison. That's how bad people think nursing homes are so ranking them by self reporting. data's ludicrous. I think what we ought to regulate them not evaluate them and this whole idea too is that you go out with mom And sort of shop around and do the five star rating like you were going to go to a restaurant. I don't know about youtube but when it comes time for mom to go to a nursing home it's money that drives where mom goes right. Nothing to do with shopping the facilities and then it's where they are they nearby. Can you get to them. Can you visit the whole idea if you will have. A market in nursing homes at ranked themselves is is silly. it's pointless we have to regulate those institutions. Have been bad for too long. By the way is the brilliant. And i do mean brilliant reporting by the new york times on this and what they the number of documents and they looked at fifteen thousand nursing. Homes zebra is a combination the new york times reporting and the fact that the death rate was higher nursing homes during covert than any place else. Is that gonna provoke greater oversight in terms of the fed's nursing homes in this country. Or is this just a blower really think it's a blip because a lobbyist powerful people don't like to think about nursing homes they push its way and and then there's no political lobby it's not like there's an organization of nursing home residents that keeps saying the food stinks. It's unsanitary and we're all in here together and we're warehoused i. I wish i could say differently. But i don't think so one quick thing before we break we're is the effort to Make it easier to get home healthcare. That's more of great. Lengths and integrate equalities. Is that well very expensive. Insurance doesn't cover. I still think there's a movement to do more of that. I think that does have a bit of a future in terms of expanding home healthcare. But you know what. The limit is marjorie. The burden of the home healthcare falls on women who are expected to stay home and provide it but many of them are working and so it sounds good. Let's do home healthcare but then if you have to hire someone relying on the family. It becomes a burden on the family to cover the cost. And that's what the limit is. I'm not saying there's not going to be a little more of it. I think we'll see more of it. It is still cheaper. I think the nursing home care but you wind up asking the family to do more as well as perhaps hiring in help and it's it gets tough okay. We are talking to a medical ethicist. Dr kaplan on keep talking to him. After this brief break you listen to eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio listening to boston. Public radio with marta. Regan and jim bradley. We're talking to medical ethicist art caplan. So kaplan usa. Today's torch is making it sound like vast vaccine passports. Are you know we've decided on them. The debate is how much should they cost. And how privately can they be and who issues them so are we already passed the idea that every gonna have to have a vaccine passport. Well i think a lot of people hate them but it's not because they hate the passport. They hate the idea that they have to get a shot in order to get passport. This becomes a debate about you. Know requiring vaccination look. No one has to get a shot. But what i am going to say is if you can't prove that you're vaccinated. You're not getting on a plane. You're not getting on a cruise boat. You're probably not getting into some restaurants and bars. You'll probably not going to be to go back to certain jobs because they're gonna wanna see your vaccinated either as an employee or a customer so take out the issue is do i have to get vaccinated. No if you stay home you know. Put anybody at risk you work from home. Version of home schooling for people don't want to vaccinate their kids. Okay you can do that but vaccine passports. I'm going to predict are inevitable because people are gonna wanna see. Let's say you're an employer who sends out a workforce like ups and you want to be able to say to your customers everybody's vaccinated don't worry you're safe you know we took care of it. And similarly and the healthcare workforce that the nursing homes. We're talking about all the staff is vaccinated. It's much safer here. We don't employ people weren't vaccinated europe by the way today announced that they're planning for a passport they call it a green cord for traveling around the eu. 'cause they want to bring back tourism fast If you wanna go there. They're going to want to see a vaccine passport. Saying from what i understand that e that digital green whatever the hell is called there in the eu is the proposal also the proposal ads a negative test and recovery from had it. Because they're concerned you're agreeing yet. Because essentially they're concerned about what happens to the unvaccinated. Okay so but can make a prediction that will last about a ten minutes. Okay they're gonna say show. Thanks in the usa. Today story wanna worse written stories ever other than you being quoted in it because it says it can't be the government can't be the government can't be the government the government to know this and i'm reading reading saying okay. Who's going to do it. I mean who's going to do it. And they never answered the question. So in your estimation which. If they're right and i totally the last thing we want is a vaccine hesitant person. The thank did as soon as they're vaccinated the government's going to know that they were whatever it is who what entity what combination of things in the probably four or five of our friends out in silicon valley. Who are already starting to do this. And they're going to have it's going to be more expensive. You probably have to pay a fee to them. Undoubtedly going to do it for profit and we'll have five different versions of the passport. If that's the way we go each one of them saying you know we ask them to certify with a doctor or here it says when you should get a boost or whatever they'll do it differently it'll be a little bit like you know Competing platforms that we have For television different companies. Doing it. different. Ways i don't like that to me in be the government that issues the darn document. It ought to harmonize authenticate the thing and be consistent with europe. And i don't need five private sector passports but in the startup phase. I think typical america feared the government is bigger than fear of industry the private startups in the. It world will do it. What if you're amazon prime you can get a free one. How about that is that. Exactly kaplan your framingham. Bright state police massachusetts. A third of them have refused the vaccines i know i just. So what does it mean you get pulled over by the state cops. You're gonna get an argument with with the state police about extended six feet away from way. There's a huge state police barracks in framingham right on route. Nine the Look the reality is Police fire doctors. I think they're going to be mandated to take vaccinations. I don't think they're going to that. We can't have a thirty percent refusal rate on people that are going to try and resuscitate you or you arrest you and be in close quarters with you and all the rest of it i get the choice i do but as the vaccines are safe. It's just going to become a condition of employment for many people. I don't think you're going to be able to be state policeman or nursing home aid or even perhaps somebody who's a food delivery guy without saying we're vaccinated and iranian. The belief is seems to be impossible on many fronts. So i wouldn't be surprised that they get away with it but anyway we're talking to art cub. Hey art so. America finally gets the place where virtually everybody including the teachers unions to a great degree. Even though there's some fighting saying we gotta get kids back in the classroom. And so that's happening in virtually all over the place including here. Where the commissioner of education is mandated in classroom education beginning april evening. Bill postpone it and then all of a sudden marty. And i are watching cnn last night and this doctor oster home. Do you know this guy. Yes they do okay. Yes right from university of minnesota says something like You know. I've been a huge advocate for getting kids back in the classroom. However since we're discussing variants he said and they were discussing whereas be one one seven two while originated in the In the uk it's about the become the dominant variant in the united states. Maybe by the end of march says russia will get the head of the cdc and quote the highest attack rate of this variant is among children five to nine and we may have to reexamine this whole thing. Jesus i mean both the concept of having to turn. The ship around is frightening. But what's even more frightening. Is the notion that kids may be getting it. Big time and transmitted big time as compared to what we learned about the the major strain of the virus. What's the deal another argument for really pushing vaccination hard is that. We're not going to be a vaccinate kids. Whatever the transmission rate is for a while. We don't have any data on them and we're not gonna pick them up and i think there are about fifteen percent of the whole population. We also know that keeping them out of school is a nightmare for them and it's bad for the parents and it really slows. The economy. And i don't think we're turning that boat around. I think the right conclusion isn't hey we're gonna freak out every new variant. If we do that we're going to be crazy. 'cause they're popping up all the time i think what we have to do is get vaccinated here in a very high level understand. That's the key to opening up schools jobs. Whatever don't you know maybe mandate to overcome some vaccine hesitancy. 'cause we gotta get the open. You gotta get your job back. If we protect most of the population at a community level. I think would be. We'll be okay. And i think the schools will open. It's it's like very into the week. Now right. i mean they're popping up and the going to the virus mutates and we know which one's bad or transmissible or whatever the best thing to do is vaccinate not sort of try and direct durant i think. So that's comforting. And i hope that is the direction we go so artist. Marjorie knows this one of my dreams. When i was a kid was that i would be a quiz show host and we do a quiz on fridays. at least we used to pre pandemic. but that wasn't what i was looking for. And so i know i know that because your lead in for me as always come on down but yeah so what i was. Thinking is the way to get in the industry. The late in life to be doing this is to create an alternative to one of the popular shows. So what. I was thinking. I just wanted to run by you. I was thinking of doing. Maybe i don't know like prices right kind of thing but instead of doing it with like a kitchen stove or something like that. Maybe with human organs asking peopple. How much do you think that is. That's a marketable idea. Some doctors in michigan put it into the. They ran a pilot which they did a pilot of your show. Yeah these Out there sawing out tumors and putting them online with photos of people in the background that might be identified as patients or doctors and asking people to guess The weight of whatever they removed seems interesting to me. Actually it's crazy. I mean people keep saying. Isn't that hip violation. I don't know i don't care it's like a professionalism violation it's like basic commonsense violation. It's like are you kidding me. We had to be going after their licenses right now and either pull them out or censor them. They gotta get punished but this is. This is like ethics. No-one please do not display the body parts of your patients online. It's a bad thing to do. This was like a what the hell with the story on the table dimly. seen in the background. And you're holding up the system. Whatever the heck it is you just move in their body and making a posting social media. I mean how. How could they have gotten through medical school and their internship and be such or maybe even their medical ethics class who knows by the way jim. There is a version of your show. Yeah it's called dr pimple. There's this doctor who comes on and does nothing but removes pimples on these cable channels. It's by the way. I one came close to the way to the kidney on this thing before we leave this topic and leave you. It's called dr pimple. Popper one of our Housing really what did i say that. I'm so in any case in this in this. I think you're you're in this new york times story about these These irresponsible residents out there wherever it was some but very quickly the point is made by you or somebody else in the story which i'm embarrassed i had never thought about is that people consider things that were taken out of their body to still be. There's they do y- you know. I'll give you two examples because i know we're up against time on you. Some people donate organs wanna meet the recipient shirts. They feel that their relatives still lives on there. They have to listen to the heart. A it's an interesting phenomena the others you'll remember that snafu over the hilo lascelles this black woman whose shells removed. Well that was an example. If they're still minor. I still feel associated with and fifty years later. The family still arguing still. I'm not saying it makes logical sense but emotionally. You got pay attention here because people do feel a connection to their tissues their parts. Yeah it's there. How much is an average liver way. I'm just asking just curious. You know i. It's like two or three pounds. That's what i bid so. Think the expert on dr pimple. People feel an attachment to their pimples. After dr pimple popper margaret guess. I'm trying to get a gift but kathleen missed me. I'm back to see. Kevin joins us every week. He's a doctors win. Virginia committee miniature director of division of medical ethics at n. y. u. school of medicine. Thank you again are cap'n coming up being a trauma. The editorial page editor of the boston globe joins us to talk about reframing. The national conversation about race by way of a new collaboration with boston university that conversation next eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio in boston. Public radio margarita. Jim brady in an effort. Help reframe the national conversational. Racial justice the boston globe and boston university center for anti-racists research or partnering to launch the emancipator. It's a resurrection. The early nineteenth century abolitionist newspaper. I think it was the nation's first actually join us online talk about this. Collaboration and other headlines is being event of trauma being the editorial page editor of the globe in her latest book is the optimist telescope thinking ahead in a reckless age. Congratulations on the new project. And great to talk to talk with you too. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for joining us so elaborate on what jim said. What are you doing over there. Great question marjorie. So we decided we're always figuring out as we go. I like to say we build the plane as we fly and as we look through the engine sometimes but we wanted to revive and reimagine a great boston tradition. A great boston newspaper tradition. And who better do that than the boston. Globe and the boston globe opinion section People don't always think about The abolitionist newspapers of the nineteenth century. That were run out of boston. The liberator Greater boston frederick. Douglass is the northstar. I our newspaper tradition. Because of course they don't exist today because they eventually achieved their aims of emancipation But those are part of our history to part of the history of the city. The city was Epicenter for Activity around the country and those abolition aaron newspapers played an important role in not just galvanizing people and convening thought leaders writers on abolition of the era but in pointing to the need for urgent not gradual abolition. So looking back at the early eighteenth and nineteenth century or eighteen twenty eighteen thirties. There were people who were abolitionists. Who believed that. There shouldn't be slaves but who thought that this process of emancipation could go slowly. And then there were others including people. Like william lloyd garrison who published a liberator out of boston from eighteen. Thirty one to The eighteen sixties till the time of the civil war who thought rather weeding to to actually persuade people in the united states who were in the free states and he specifically thought about new englanders and northern whites that this project ought to be more and he himself how to transformation on that thought and so if you flash forward to today and why. We're doing this today really. It's because we want to reframe. The conversations were having on racial justice today to stop asking the question of whether we want a racially just and equitable society. And instead ask the question of how we get there if we assume that we do want one and we soon that it ought to happen quickly and that's a totally different set of conversations. It's a set of ideas and voices that we don't hear enough from in the media. We don't hear their debates and the conversations that are happening on that side of the spectrum and for that matter. It's a set of ideas and questions that really demand the rigor of evidence and scholarship to point toward solutions. So that's one of the reasons that were Partnering with abram kennedy and the center for anti-racist research at boston university because they are tapping into not just to be you but across a set of affiliated universities and colleges across the region scholars were looking at the issues that we face across our systems education system housing system public health or sources of solutions to racial inequality and source of solution to building. That more racially just society. You mentioned a minute ago. Speeder dealing with this quickly. What's the. I'm trying to pull it up on my phone. What's the great quote in the introduction to this joint project from kennedy about the timing of the original emancipator and what happened. What four and a half decades later you know. I don't have this exact quote right in front of me. But i think one of the things. That abram dr kennedy says Is that that an eighteen. Twenty slavery was an urgent problem and today that slavery has become racism racism. Is that urgent of a problem. I think that might be what you're also goes on to say. And i don't have it in front of me. Either that who would have thought nine hundred twenty when ally who embree was publishing this This newspaper that forty five years later. there'd be a declaration of the ended slavery so i have to say it really urgency in. The possibility was great when he goes on to say. There are many people today who can't imagine a donation without racism is equality forty five years for it and by the way he wrote that terrific how to be an anti-racist books he's a he's a big deal. I completely agree with you. And yes. I think there's something so important about that quote and his sentiments there which is to say that we tend to think that the society we live in is the society. We're stuck with or the society of the past and it really has taken people who are willing to imagine different kind of society and really populate that image with some real details unreal. How we get there from here kind of strategy and ideas and policies to achieve that kind of social change if you look back at social movements and so that's i mean that's really an opportunity. I think for journalism and journalists for an opinion journalism platform to sort of showcase that. How do we get there from here. We talking to being vancouver trauma and she is the editorial page of the boston globe. So what is this. Is this gonna be online printed a newsletter. How what's physically going to be so. It's going to be online online channels. We don't have any plans for anything printed at the moment We're really looking at the digital environment. We live in today. The you know. I have loved going through the boston. Public libraries of the liberator their scans of the printed versions and just beautiful. Evert is but i have to say we were looking at this as a truly digital multimedia endeavors so there will be a newsletter which is going to be called. Unbound quoting from an original abolitionist. Aaron editorial and it's it's author and curator is kimberly atkins former. Wbu our reporter. Who is currently a boston. Globe columnist just great contributor. Yeah and she's fantastic. And i signed up for her newsletter once. You know already this morning. And that's gonna come that's gonna show it's called unbound that's gonna show up every couple of weeks. Is that with the schedule of thing is here. That's the schedule and it's still forthcoming. We're we're doing a sort of slow roll out here. What we really announced yesterday was that we are in this partnership to launch this upper and that we're looking for two co editors in chief and that we are rolling out this newsletter and we also announced a fantastic advisory board that we're really grateful for helping guide this effort but we're really at the starting phases of this and we want to build sort of the biggest ten and thinking about the ways and forms can take place. Maybe we'll have video op. Eds have new forms of digital conversation. That we haven't imagined yet we did a clubhouse. Isn't it yesterday to announce it on that audio platform So we're trying to be inventive here. And i think really the opportunity is for the editors in chief who take charge of this effort who kind of take the vision and make it a reality to articulate what forums and media can be using our best us to get this formation and get this kind of debate and conversation out there. By the way you lose a point of being a by failing to mention that kim atkins used to work at the boston marjorie carries a huge. But you gain a point by the fact that can't believe mentioned my favorite word in the english language which is free. My understanding is. This is a free project. You're correct we. This is all in front of the paywall. It's one of the reasons we formed a partnership. It's one of the reasons we are raising philanthropic funding to support it and Looking for four sort visionary sponsors and donors because this information wants to be free Those abolitionist aaron. Newspapers were widely circulated. Wasn't just the people who bought them. They were traded handed off. And we we want this to be able to be as widely available to as many readers as it can't be you tell you. Oh just before we move on at margin. We're talking about this project of before the show. It is really exciting. I mean the timeliness obviously is extraordinary but it is really exciting. And i know we. And i'm guessing our listeners. Really looking forward to it. So congratulations to all of you for getting this thing going. It's great thank you so much. Keep talking to being trauman. She is the editorial page editor of the boston globe. Can we talk about a couple of your great editorials pick marjorie. How about editorials on the police. is that what. You're you've written two in a row talking about police. One was march sixteenth. Today's and it was in the print edition to this morning. I think about boston police overtime. Still out of control and on how far behind me armed police reform. Let's start with the overtime so we have this sort of shell game. That was played. Marty walsh last june saying he was gonna cut twelve million from the police overtime budget. And if you look at the police contract we actually had an interesting excavation. We sat down with some lawyers and looked at it. Look look to the contract for one of the major unions and the the fact of the matter is it's very difficult. There are bill incentives motivations and that contract to book more overtime. But put that aside for a moment what happened was with cutting that those funds and redirecting them to worthy causes there. There was Public health commission initiatives that were funded with that housing and homelessness Mental health services partnership that was funded with that money. That all looks good and sort of like an alternate mode of public safety investment being cut rather than sort of this notion of Patting the police budget and over policing right. That's all the questions that have been raised. A since the killing of george floyd and the important recognition but. We need police reform here in the city of boston To to address some of the excesses and in fact you know now. We know that there's an anticipated budget deficit and the police overtime account of fifteen million dollars so actually more the match twelve million So so this notion that. Marty walsh great here in slashing. This police overtime budget is something that really. I mean. the editorial board just felt strongly that this borsum following up on and just pointing out to people ought to be obvious to our leaders. And certainly to kim janey and whoever the next mayor is if it's her if it's someone else which is that you have to deal with these collective bargaining agreements and really you know if you want to address police overtime or any officer accountability. It's really going to take both Making good on the police reforms from the state reform bill which we know some of those are are overdue but also taking on Taking on the police unions at the local level. And that's something that that marty walsh. Clearly you know. Despite the fact that he's about to become the labor secretary he clearly wasn't able to. Do you know a canoe before we comment on this. I know you don't speak to motives or your perception of motives and your editorials. Which i'm sure is appropriate margin. I can speak to motives in a minute but it. Can you add what you talked about in terms of the statewide police reform. I'm embarrassed to say until. I read your editorial i was not aware that some of these commissions that were so celebrated when the law was passed after months and months and months of delay in legislature. Haven't even met in many cases philipson and then we can talk a little bit about our reaction to your two visas. Well sure so. Yes as you mentioned jim. It's i think it's important to point out that this police reform bill. It's really triggered. The negotiations of it really triggered last summer by the killing of george floyd and the growing awareness and the idea of setting up. This what is known as the post commission the peace officer standards and training commission. Which is really i think. The core of that police reform bills efforts to hold police accountable when there are actions violence against citizens that are unwarranted when they're You know are are really sort of misbehavior of police officers. that that commission is one of the core actions where the members who have not been named there's also a facial recognition commission so to study How facial recognition technology which. It's been documented that this has disproportionate bias against communities and people of color because it doesn't recognize them discern between them as readily. That's another commission that has is supposed to be Stood up and have i should say members signed and so the the accountability here is kind of spread. So one of the things in the editorial trying to balance here is to make clear. It's not just one person. In each of these efforts the legislature bears some responsibility. That governor's office bear some responsibility here. But the fact of the matter is Bees meetings and initial namings of members initial efforts to name members and get these commissions going are lagging behind. You know. this is where you didn't go. That i i will go for a second here marjorie. And you know. Many elected officials. Their greatest skill is self congratulation and there was more than enough to go around when the city and the state finally got their act together on these things. But one really wonders if this is just sloppiness for example on the part of the state while we haven't gotten around because of the pandemic to name these commissions most elected officials should be able to walk in pick commissions at the same time or if everybody knew all along that we're gonna throw a sop to the masses. We know there's a huge demand because people want racial justice. They want police reform. And then once we've given them what they wanted or at least close to what they wanted. Because obviously both reforms imperfect state when particularly didn't address qualified immunity which was a major demand of a lot of advocates and reformers They're not going to pay attention closely enough to know that there's real and there's illusion and i have to say it is so grossly irresponsible to not have followed up. This isn't like seven years after the fact when they've done a lot of things and maybe a few things are falling through the cracks. The commissions that use you spoke to in your terrific editorial beena are as you set or so central to what. The legislature was trumpeting to the. Look that it's a total in my view. Abrogation of their commitment to the public is that is that fair. Do you think. I think if they don't take action quickly. I mean absolutely. I mean we. We wouldn't have called it out if we didn't agree with you. You know they were supposed to meet to examine the civil service laws which is about hiring and promotion of police. Accountability really comes. In as i was mentioning they were supposed to have met. On january thirtieth. Here we are in march and is there even a plan for meeting these as as you said it is fine to get to have that moment where you've signed this historic legislation and you tell people that massachusetts is leading on police reform but it's in this execution actually doing the work right but that actually changes and that and that we see changes happen and there is. I think a parallel to what we saw with the overtime issue at the city level. Where you know you can say that you're cutting from the overtime budget and the public might believe that that's actually achieving something in the way of police reform But then if you know behind the scenes this is all getting carried out in the same way business as usual in the same way. The public begins to lose more trust. And i think this ultimately is bad for police officers to there are a lot of great police officers Across the commonwealth. They're great police officers in the city of boston and the public trust in those officers of course is threatened by events like what we saw. Minneapolis events that happen here in boston to even if not not as stark and not not captured on videotape but to see lawmakers unwilling to really fulfil their duties the public to the law and really follow through on the laws. They've passed themselves off to create accountability for police officers to reimagine and think about public safety in the way that they've promised the public they'll do i think ultimately undermines people's faith the entire system in new government in their institutions and. I don't think that's good for the police. Either and frankly. I would love to see more police officers urging this reform to i know some of them care about it but but i think there's also been an allergy among the unions. We're talking to think of trump margie. Disappeared you're not on zoom anymore. You're still there right or not. Okay well that's perfect. Because then i can bring up what marjorie wouldn't have wanted me to bring and i have the freedom because she's got technical problems you don't know this. But for the twenty plus years on the radio twice a year marjorie and i against marjorie better judgement. Even though she's finally on board we do segments on making daylight saving time permanent and about a week ago at market was on with us. Who's the guy who actually already moved the clock to enemy. That has run at to extend daylight saving time described himself as to us as a hub pursuing moby dick moby dick being year round daylight saving time since march is not here and i can actually luxury your editorial can you. What's the core argument you guys made as to. Why what marquee. And marco rubio of all people will maybe. It's not surprising. Because he's from florida and rick scott. What's the primary argument that move the boston globe in that direction. Well you know it's really about the transition time so we all experienced that last weekend's with the spring forward but there's documented evidence that this fleet to disorientation and sleep schedules. It costs people sleep. It causes them stress. And here we are in a pandemic. It's already causing people lots of angst around scheduling around sweep You know people are having trouble resting not knowing what comes next in terms of vaccines when they can see their loved ones and so. I think it's only more urgent this time. But i think our core argument would have been true even before the pandemic. Which is there traffic accidents. That happen as a result of this whether it's because of people expecting different kinds of light on their commute on either end people. Just being fundamentally disoriented during the transition. I think it's important to recognize daylight savings. Time's originally daylight savings. Time was a good idea and in fact. I don't know if you know this but this is actually in my book. The optimist telescope the origin of the idea traces back two centuries before it actually became Or more than a century before it actually became a practice it dates back to an essay. A satirical essay that benjamin franklin rose on a for win while living in paris where he talked about shifting shifting people's time so that they would waste less candles less candle wax. This was all about trying to save electricity because people need to obviously light their homes whether by candle wax and ben franklin's time or later With electric light bulbs and they do that when start but the assumptions have really changed around that because people now use air-conditioning these other kinds of equipment appliances that That have to be left on Because they're changing and bracketing their day differently so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to remove those hours of daylight from one end of the day or the other it kind of turns out to be more of a wash is what i understand. Well by the way the joy at the end of the day. And it's not quite as great when you don't go to work physically but like us work from home The joy at the end of the data more light is just. It is so invigorating is just particularly in times like these now. If marjorie was here have technical problems she would say being. Jim didn't convince me. In twenty years but globe editorial did do it for me so on her behalf. Thank you and congratulations. And by the way. I know as i said both of us are really looking forward to the launch of this emancipator. Congratulations you guys. Were really excited about it. Thanks for being with us. Thank you thanks for asking about it. We really enjoyed being of anka traumatised. The editorial page jeter the boston globe related book is the optimus telescope thinking ahead and reckless age being vinca trauma and again thank. You really enjoyed it coming up or you and your pandemic body ready to reenter society or you man rush to pull together after a year. Living swab and lee. That's next on eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public radio. I'm jim brady marguerite. And i'll be back in a minute. We're having a couple of technical problems resolving when i say again is resolving the tango from up very convincing but the technical problems are being addressed. The should be fixed in a couple of minutes so it's society opening up people returning to work in tonight's out on the town or and everything in between are you ready for your post. Pandemic big reveal or in some cases like mine. Bigger reveal after a year of living slovenly. Which is really what it is. And many of our cases putting on the covid nineteen using fancy filters on zoom calls. The dewey and wrinkle free and wearing nothing but sweatsuits or in my case running shorts crunch time for crunches now that we have to reenter. Are you feeling the pressure to return to your pre pandemic self according to the atlantic. It's a great piece in. The atlantic is an uptick in people exercising in seeking trainers to get their post pandemic bodies in shape. We're taking your calls asking you. Are you among them or do you simply not give a damn eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seven. I think one of the commonalities that we have all experienced in the midst of this is a lot of us have unkind includes me sort of let ourselves go and then you say to yourselves after a year of this after go back and see my colleagues which means i occasionally after like run my hands through my hair so it looks decent Maybe wearing sweatpants to the newsroom or the office or whatever is not the way to go even though it's gotten me through the last twelve months so even if you're not going to a gym a gym that's not my kind of deal. And he hired a trainer which is also not my kind of deal. Are you doing something to make yourself as presentable as presentable as you once were before these last twelve months and if you're not by the way why not have you basically said. I like my slovenly. Self i liked my sort of let it all hang out literally and figuratively self. Which if is describes you than i am perfectly fine with eight seven seven three zero one. Eight hundred seventy and don't send email. I'm not talking over marta. Regan like many accuse you of doing madras technical difficulties which should be. Oh she's here. I'm wondering you back back on my own computer. Yes summer zoo so while i was really impressive. So are you by the way. I see you every day. I don't see in person. But i see you. You look fit as a fiddle as you always wear so you have nothing other than wearing an apron during the radio show which is rather odd almost every single day. You haven't let yourself go at all. You have nothing to fix right. Well i mean joe six something. We're all getting older here. There's a lot of normal aging but but I think a lot of people. I'd become like a fanatical walker. You don't be stuck in the house all day long and winding down so i i. I've watched laugh at. I know allowed people who have a say say let themselves go during zoom join more drinking doing more anna bullying there. They've got the co-existing and you know or they just kind of not colored their hair or enough all these things. I think that is going to be very is going to be traumatic. Time to try to get shipped next to wit half weeks. Well you only have done. Actually why don't think it's good to. It's gonna be a little bit more into an f. weeks but that time hopefully as approaching what. I've done which i guess is a suggestion to listeners. I often do. Bench presses of a corned beef sandwich on the couch. When i'm watching cnn at night which serve allows you to combine some of the best and worst of pandemic time so are. Have you basically allowed yourself to come apart at the seams. I'm talking about physically. We're not talking about mentally at the in this particular day and you planning on fixing all that in anticipation of reentry come whenever we don't know when we mentioned started the show today by saying april nineteenth. Everybody in massachusetts. Sixteen over is eligible for vaccine. Hopefully you'll get it in a month after that so even if you like hiding out at home and doing work re entry is imminent and you wanna look like what you look. I surely do not margin. Keep saying could she sees me on zoom and only sees. My head has not gained weight. The part below my head has gained weight and i would like to address that before. We're back in the real world. Let's start in new hampshire with chris. Chris you oh sorry. Chris theon hold on my apologies. We got to take a short break when we do. We will take you. i i will tell you you're listening to eighty nine seven. Gbh marjorie has returned and will return in just a second boston public radio. Jim brady and margery eagan marjorie having some technical woes so she's on zoom so apologies for the sound but we're glad she is back. We're talking about letting things go during the pendant letting yourself go. Not things go. If you now feel pressured as i do. I really do to pull myself together. Now that society's opening up and he got reenter it. Maybe you've you know you're you've done fine like margaritas or you have fallen apart physically and you said i'm i like myself. That way are willing to accept myself. I'm not quite there yet. Let's start new hampshire with chris christie on boston public radio. Hey there hi. Jim i just want to say i. I totally agree. I have to start with the bare minimum at least calisthenics in my living room. Because i'll tell you You know it's bad when your winter jere your winter coat and your hoodies no longer zip up properly. Yeah and my question to you is all this time. None of my loved ones in the past year my closest friends and family members. No one has said anything to me and my aunt. I just have jumped up three three inches. Go you know w. g. b. h. Fanny pack buckle. I got serious problem. Basically for the motivation chris. You're the best. Thank you by the way. I have had a zipper experience like chris described a minute ago and he had a laugh in his voice. So i think people didn't take it seriously. There is nothing. I'm one people who know me know. I've gained tons of weight. I've lost tons way. I'm one of those yoyo. People people doctors say it's the least healthy way to live but there's nothing worse than what critics describe when all of a sudden that zipper doesn't zip and times around here and people have gone to get their act together because Are coming out. Parties are and this is. The great news appear to be relatively imminent to intro. Because i was disconnected. Did you did you have you stuff. Suffered through the cohen fifteen. I you know. I actually don't weigh myself much but i do know of again because of zipper test is. Chris was mentioning a minute ago. I think it's safe to say that. I have expanded a tad during the pandemic and i should contract a little bit before. For example we return to gbh. Marjorie is one of these people by the way when you say do i look like gained anyway. And she won't be able to make eye contact with me. She'll say not no. You look no. She won't say no she say you look great. That's what you'll say she'll void question. I don't want you to do. Were very tall so you can disguise a horrible way to put it. Thank you very much debbie in brooklyn. You're next on boston. Public radio welcome. Show hi debbie. Hi longtime first time. Love it love at high speed to be on marge marjorie. You're gonna like this. I do an hour. Plus of yoga on zoom. Every morning. I i have four different teachers for different classes. I'm mean i'm seventy five. I'm in the best shape. I've ever been in my life. How great is that debbie. It's wonderful. I feel great and by the way i've always wanted to do yoga and i never have been able to get into it. Marjorie is big time. What drew you was it late in life for win that all star. What i'm no. I've been doing yoga for over twenty years and jim. It's it's basically just stretching and breathing at any everybody do it. There's all different levels and you just have to be able to breathe given my fear that maybe you can answer this since you sound like. You're pretty expert. My concern is not doing any of the positions. My concern is when i get down in the position. Who's going to help me get back up. Do you have a healthy a very. That's a very you know what but let me tell you something you can do it in a chair you can do it standing. You don't have to lie down on the floor and get into really crazy positions you can do. You can do yoga in any in any age and any shape and any condition and it's really about breathing. It's all about mindfulness breathing. And it's still debbie. I want to go back to the first thing is it has a field your age and say i'm in the best shape ever been in my whole life. How great is that it. it's wonderful. It's wonderful because i i i don't love. I can't believe that. I am the age i am but i am and I've signs of aging like everybody else. But this is really helping me manage that that life challenge. You can hear it in your voice and congratulations and thanks for the call. So that's one way to get through the pandemic no Hot room yoga. And of course they've had to shut down because of the but they have offered classes on zoom. And you think it's not going to be that great while it it is because you're all their everybody's there in the class that teaches talking to you. You're not the hot room which i really miss. But you're still doing it and it's still a great benefit. You feel good when you're dong jin feel open received. Then you bump into poll revel in one of those hot things hot yoga guy. Is you just feel stretched me fairly well. I think it's safe. Can you see me in a hot yoga and a hot yoga class be honest. I didn't think okay. let's go Silence i guess says what we needed said allen on the road. You're next on boston. Public radio with marjorie gonna meet bradley. Thank you for calling. Hi how you doing guys to make some changes in my life. I gained about fifteen pounds having Haven't shaved with a razor in a year and not been letting my kids cut my hair. So we're I gotta get in front of those things before people start to see me again. So what are you gonna do. Alan to get from here to there by razor shaves and get a proper haircut and i'm actually on my way to the gym now to All you really again are you really. Yeah my My daughter likes to make fun of my belly when i walk by. She's not she's a peach that one of those two allen. I love your voice by the way every time you call allen thanks beard i means you look like rip van winkle at this stage of the game. Or what's the deal. I have Have like a permanent five o'clock seattle. I i just use. I use the same put on my face that my kids use on my hair on the paint. A beautiful picture ellen. Thank you very much for the for the call that a few days. Beard is pretty sexy. Give stand these men who are the best looking man on tv and movies. How do they have that little bit of growth all the time. I don't understand. don't you have to be clean shaven to get back to that point and then clean You understand what i'm saying. How do you do that. It's a mystery jim. i'm serious. I don't know. Maybe they use clippers or something. I don't know what they need. So only is a slovene. Renier hedge can assert the hair up at accustomed. Village that with the other people are not flow be is yet to buy it when i don't know if they have it on tv as seen on. Tv thing of flabby. I bought a flow. Be about twenty five years ago. And it's this thing is martin said attached to a vacuum cleaner and you suck your hair up and it cuts it and it's you know it's pretty clever thing particularly in a time like this when you don't. You're not comfortable necessarily going to a place to cut your hair. The problem is what they didn't tell you. Is you have to buy canister vacuum cleaner. Which at the time cost like three hundred dollars you flabby for nineteen ninety nine and it ends up costing you four hundred bucks kevin. You're in rhode island. We're talking about whether or not people let themselves fall apart during the pandemic physically and if their goal like allen is the look presentable once we reemerge kevin hey jim and marjorie a third or fourth caller longtime listener. Got my retirement bog. A quick editorial here I don't think anybody who had actually tried. The slowly would know the details that you just the gym that you just shared which i think is at your age so you make your public service. That's why i was sharing with people. And i thank you for this phrase kevin. I appreciate what's up. So i wanted to share is just If it's been generally kind of volatile for me in terms of my my own physical fitness hall in theory we all know how important it is. You know i used. I was doing cross here for a long time. our driving a You know i it was close to my office was which was in providence but then i stopped having to go to the office so came like a half hour guy and then and then the pandemic. Obviously we had various shutdown things. And i just made a choice to start doing all my workouts from home so big shoutout to cross cities providence. They've been great. You know my membership but let me bring home a lot of the equipment and and participate in all up and maintain the community So i've been doing it all my garage But yeah i mean just generally been vol you know So no kevin. I know this is gonna sound weird. You sound fit. I don't know how i can say that over a phone but you actually sound sound like a fit person does i. I kinda speak it into existence. I if you can Go no. This is great. You know i'll always love having opportunity to talk to you. Guys will rand but bad things have the added benefit and you had boost right now. Springtime coming around. And i think that's gonna really help a lot of people get the motivation. You're really a healthy thinker. There kevin thank you very much for your call and your voice. We appreciate talking about getting ready for the end of the poor cash. Returnee friedman relatively gropes far here coverage umbrella. Do it eight. Eight eight eight nine. Seven two four w. g. b. h. News dot org public radio. Jim rowdy marjorie. Going if you're thinking in we're taking your calls asking you in a mad work. I read a piece in the atlantic that inspired this about somebody talking about how he he had let himself to a degree while he really didn't much fall apart physically during the pandemic for obvious reasons like a lot of us and he's now in a mad workout frenzy to get himself back to pre pandemic norms many of us weren't that fabulous shape prior to the pandemic. But a lot better than we are now and that's the goal you thinking about getting back to that as the writer in the atlantic center you more likely to be drinking six pack than having six packs and i can tell you that's always been the case with me but now more than ever let's go to fitchburg were bruce's on the phone bruce. You're boston bubba. Radio hebrews high so Yeah i've you know physically. I really haven't gained any weight My main problem is I have a medical condition that i have not been able to get treated for You know all year. Because so. And i'm thinking a lot of people probably in the same situation well except bruce's you know i'm not a doctor but i will give you a little advice anyway. 'cause a lotta doctors have given us that advice even unvaccinated. Don't put off care that matters. It is safe These hospitals medical facilities have been really meticulous about making sure that Elective things and other care. That's not electric that is necessary are done because they know a lot of people. For understandable reasons have put off care. And so i thank you for your call and urge you strongly to to quickly To to move on it. But very quickly bruce yeah i have been able to You know get the operation finally In the fall but he'd been worked out and so. I'm going to have to have a redo so i'm like dealing with like a over hoops. Oh we didn't hang out bruce. His line cut cutoff bruce. Who wish you luck and hope whatever care. You need happens margaret. You can't see the clock. But i'm here to tell you the show is over. Thanks for the call. 'cause like to him okay. We are done as jeff. Just said we appreciate it much seem to boston public radio tomorrow. Going to be joined by andrew. Abroa- todd from meat press are tech writer. And you're not gonna want to thank our crew chelsea murs so innocuous usually an comedy engineer. John parker j. both mile smith. He's talking to them. Because they run our vote studios and not functioning at the moment. What's on tv tonight. Jim couple brings. Dr peter. slavon is head of mass general hospital about a year ago gave a speech in which he predicted. almost exactly. Unfortunately what would happen in the internet in the year to come. We're gonna talk about that year and we're gonna look forward and healthcare so. He joins me. Racial rollins just confirmed a few minutes goes suffolk. County filed a response to emotion from sean alice's lawyer this morning agreeing before the joining his defense lawyer before the judge say yes he should get a new trial and if he gets a new trial that she will move to dismiss all the remaining charges against sean. We're gonna talk about that multi decade saga. Why she made the decision she did. And what kind of blowback. She actually expects together. Maybe getting so rawlins slavin tonight on on greater boston. At seven o'clock that sounds excellent and very excited about jim. In the fanny pack. So you can maybe spacious mass jim and get a special one and maybe building. They may be excited about the pack. They're even more excited about you and microphone. I mean it's given the choice between the two. They would choose that. Her technical problems will be resolved. Tomorrow we hope you'll join us. I'm jim brady. Thank you so much for tuning inside about medical problems in tune tomorrow. Meanwhile at a great day and boston public radio today.

massachusetts boston marjorie jonathan gruber john gruber Pnc pnc bank Pnc bank national association Jim happy saint patrick Da rich rollins commonwealth avenue court president biden Jonathan gruber john baker
How Science Can Jumpstart Economy: MIT Economists

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

28:54 min | 2 years ago

How Science Can Jumpstart Economy: MIT Economists

"Welcome to the Bloomberg PNL podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney along with my co-host these Abramowicz each day, we bring you the most noteworthy in useful interviews for you and your money whether at the grocery store or the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg PL podcast on apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts as well. As at Bloomberg dot com. Well, income inequality. An uneven economic economic opportunity clearly became key issues in the two thousand sixteen presidential election to help us kind of dig through some of these issues. We welcome our two guests Dr Jonathan Gruber professor of economics at Massachusetts Institute of technology and Simon Johnson, professor of entrepreneurship at MIT and former chief economist at the IMF IMF, I should also say Dr Gruber's also key architect of Abam care and Romney care doctor Gruber, Simon thank you so much for joining us. So you guys let's talk about the book you have written. And we're here to discuss its entitled jumpstarting America. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth and the American dream which is available now. So with this book, Dr Gruber key findings what's kind of the key findings that you guys come up with here. I think the key point is that we've forgotten an important lesson from the US history, which is the in the. Boone decades post World War Two what drove US economic growth was a fruitful partnership between the government and the private sector in developing new technologies that the groove economy. We can get back to that at the peak. We spent two percent of our entire economy on publicly financed. RND? It's now down two point seven percent. We need to get back to investing. We're on the causes growth, but we do. So in a way that involves the whole country, not just a few elite coastal cities that have that have been the beige beneficiaries of our knee expenditure in the recent past with that point Simon. I'm just curious. I think it's a fascinating idea. It's a great idea is the is there the political will given the budget deficits, we have now to do this as a great Christian Vince behind closed doors. We find a lot of agreement across the entire political spectrum on the support signs. And I h as, you know, gets a lot of support from Republicans and from Democrats more funding for an age more initiatives like NIH, I think there's interest in that. We're proposing a big bold way to do it. I agree, but it would be benefit everyone across the country. And that Matt is on congress. Oh, it does. Indeed. It doesn't need especially in election year coming up. Yes. So Jonathan how do we get there? What are you? What are some of the practical suggestions that you guys a call within your book? So one important practical suggestion is to realize that we have incredible reservoirs of talent all around the country that while most of the growth in the US has happened in six or eight cities of the last couple of decades, we have places in the book identify hundred two places, which are large which have well-treated populations, and which have affordable housing, which could become the technology hubs of tomorrow. The other suggestion we make is we need to move to more a-political process through through sort of a commission that political commission model on the base closing commission. Well, let's make it a technology hub opening commission tilt decide worship with the dollars of tomorrow. That's actually an interesting point an a political convention that you're doing this. I I've just thinking realistically with all the. Seeing in congress right now in the all the battling back and forth. It seems impossible to get coordination across the aisle. But it it it does if you think about you know, electric cars and the potential to invest in electric charging stations across the country and move towards that spells right that plays right into the green deals. I mean, I mean that is an interesting way to get both sides of the aisle on the same page because you do you kind of dot every I cross every take well, you could plug various technology visions in into the mechanism of proposing. So the green new deal could fit there if you want to promote more life size. If you want to aim to co Kanta that could be the probably that gets plugged in. The key point is spent a lot more on the on the basic science price does not going to do that. Because of privacy to can't get no one company can get all the gains. But once you create that scientific information and infrastructure, it can spread and be a catalyst for private sector development. And that can happen absolutely everywhere in the country is not this is not a Silicon Valley or Boston promoting book. This is promoting jump start for thirty six forty five pay. Let's go for. Fifty American states, so Jonathan I mean, when you think about it, the university system of this country has been argued one of the backbones of technological advances over time is that an seems like that could be anywhere that could be anywhere. I mean, I think of cities like Austin, Texas, which have become, you know, huge tech areas. I mean, my son's at university of Colorado. There's tech community out there in boulder and Denver it can really happen anywhere. But does it. What's again? I'm just kinda wondering I just don't see the government stepping up with big dollars today. Well, so two points in that one of one of my favorite examples in the book is Orlando Florida home of the emails, not Nikki mass, forty five minutes. East is the center for the US microcomputer micro simulated industry and the largest university American versus central Florida which went for a mid size university. Having the thirteenth ranked electrical engineering department in the country that area forty five minutes of Orlando has created hundred thousand jobs. Over the past thirty thirty years through a partnership of the government, the university in the private sector, and we're confident that this can happen. Look if you want evidence look at the Republican reaction the green new deal largely negative except Lamar Alexander said how much he liked the research and development part of the green new deal. That's where we can get consensus. So interesting a s both of you. This question is when you when you do this, and you move into away from the coastal areas say we've seen what what this is done to Seattle in terms of real estate we've seen what it's done to San Francisco in terms of homelessness. The it seems to me there has to be a really concerned concerted effort with local communities to make sure that this doesn't happen in the locals don't those who do not participate in this program. Don't get priced out. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you to New York for the backlash for making. That point. Rather bundling Clayton? Gently party. Absolutely. And you're so right that local communities have to be on board. Now, as you also know that more than two hundred and thirty communities in the United States bid on Amazon too. So they want the jobs the jobs need to come with sustainable growth and real estate is a key piece. This one thing that makes so many United States tractive is real estate really really cheap. If we say the numbers on air. I think a lot of your Neo based listeners are gonna wanna move majorly. The you can buy a house in place like Pittsburgh for less than two hundred thousand dollars at a nice house. Right. So what you want? You don't want to lose that you want to understand. And appreciate that as part of the package, and you want to use that as a big part of the message, and you don't wanna run out of space. So it's very important. You think as a community about what kind of zoning you're going to have what kind of dealt you're going to allow people want to live together. They want cluster they wanna live closer together in in the past you need to make sure there's enough space for that. Is there enough trained this country have enough trained engineers technical people to to do this? I mean, when I you know. Several years ago when I came out of college. It was everybody wants a Wall Street now Mike is enter college that they're just all thinking tech, and engineering and apps and things like that we have enough technical expertise in this country right now we have enough skill. We don't have enough technical expertise. I think that once again one thing we've fallen behind on one thing the government did really well in the decades after World War Two through things like the national defense education act was invest in both high school and college education, the scientists we need to get back to that. If we simply increase government investment in science, but don't boost the supply scientists we're just going to increase income inequality. We increase the demand and the supply that means a large investment with local buying into improved education, both high school and college levels, and that's actually really good point. I will tell you what my my kids who came up with very interesting degrees. They wanted to study, and I push the moral towards technology because it seemed to be the place to be as you say. Is there a buy in from the university level? To help support that for instance, make technology degrees, more affordable. That's kiosks. Absolutely. And you know, who's going to drive that young people the young people want the technology skills. They want I think it's mixing technology with creative. That's the future. That's what the artificial intelligence machines are not going to take away from you. But it has to be affordable. It has to be audible, and we've got to look at the federal level that after Sputnik in nineteen fifty seven that's what we did. We may physics math education. Much more affordable spread that around the country. There's a federal piece, but there's also local and state house. Right. There's going to be pathways through community colleges and other ways through state schools. We were very good at that in the past. And we've taken off that bull. Frankly. Interesting gentlemen, thank you very much. Dr Jonathan Gruber professor of economics and MIT and Simon Johnson professor of entrepreneurship at MIT discussing their new book jumpstarting America. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth. And the American dream that book is available now. Thank you very much, gentlemen. I Opole swinging. We have been Cigna rela sitting in for Lisa Abramowicz this morning, I guess taking a look at the FOMC meeting minutes from yesterday just kind of confirms what I think the market was already discounting, which is the fed remains committed to being on the sideline at least for the near term to see what that means for the credit markets. We welcome. Our next guest RJ galaxy in your portfolio manager head of the municipal bond investment group and head of the duration committee for federated investors. He joins us on the phone from Pittsburgh RJ. Welcome to the show. What did you take away from the FOMC notes and kind of the recent dovish commentary from the fed? How are you positioning your funds? We'll good morning. Thanks for having me. I thought on that that the minutes, you know, weren't really necessarily market moving. But that doesn't mean there wasn't wasn't some revelation in there that that I think material first and foremost, it basically suggested to me the tone of the minutes themselves affirms, the fed that. Is at neutral that that one remaining dot that ticks up next year on the dot plot. If you look at the medians don't have don't they don't put too much confidence in that dot they sound like they're equally likely that the next move is an eas- as it is a hike, and it certainly affirmed of you that this year is not likely to see any move fed target rates at least not in two thousand nineteen. We'll see what happens next year RJ question because this is kind of baffles me just a little bit head of the duration committee. This is something I swim. You're keen on the balance sheet, we went from prior to the financial crisis of balance sheet of under a a now, essentially the fed is saying we need to keep it at three and a half trillion. This does that create any anxiety and used to why they need to leave that much stimulus in the system. Well, just for background. I used to work on the Fed's open market desk. I was a traitor at the New York fed back in the ninety s at the time the system open market account was seven hundred or eight hundred billion, you know, a fraction of its size today. And I think over the decades have have followed the the implementation of monetary policy changed drastically with all the various rations of QE and then the development of various programs to manage short rates target rates. If you will within the context of a massive amount of reserves in the banking system. And I think number one they've shown that their current framework works that they can target short term rates, even with massive amounts of excess reserves paying interest on reserves is another meaningful change as occurred Kord right about ten eleven years ago, if I recall correctly, so I don't think the fed needs to have needs to regress if you will back to the balance sheet that existed ten twenty years ago. The framework it works, and I think they've proven that. And since it does that means they have much more flexibility to leave the the balance sheet larger if in fact, the market's broadly defined suggest they should well one thing that suggests they should leave it larger is the fact that the interbank market for reserves is functioning fine that the demand for cash if you chart on Bloomberg the currency in circulation on the Fed's balance sheet because that's a big liability. Right has surged in the last ten years? So there's there's plenty of reason to have a larger balanced, even without the reserve markets, the demand for currency, extremely large, and it's grown rapidly. So that's one market. That's telling you a big balance-sheets. Okay. I think another set of markets are also telling you that for one the the confluence of tightening in December and the the the perception of auto pilot, which was fueled by the fed zone communications with respect to the balance. Sheet painted a worrisome picture that rates were still going up. Quantitative tightening was was was going to persist and the fed ran the risk of of of over tightening, generally speaking, and they had a lot to do with the fourth quarter tunnel. The the fed reacted financial conditions, which became very ever cereal. They call off the dogs on tightening. And they said, hey, the balance sheet can remain large because the markets are telling us, that's what they sort of need. And if the fed is sticking by what chair Powell fed in his January press conference that his primary goal is to extend the economic expansion. That's your primary goal, then the balance sheet is they secondary goal and one primes the other. And I think that as a result, they can have a big balance sheet, and they're okay with it doesn't really necessarily worry me per se. What worries me is when people are talking about, you know, modern monetary theory. This idea of of there's a free lunch that the era of Fiat currencies. Has told us that you can print your own money to a far as the I can see to fund all kinds of fiscal expansion. I think that worries me that's reckless. And I wonder if the large balance-sheet is misperceived or misunderstood by those proponents of such theories to say, yeah, there's a free lunch that that's worrisome that the politics of this get worrisome, so RJ just the next thirty seconds. You know, just give us your sense kind of economic growth, obviously, the first quarter GDP a big slowdown from the fourth quarter. Are you are you in that camp that says we will see accelerating growth in the remainder of two thousand nineteen in the US? Yes. Yeah. We are. We could clearly the first quarter slower, you know, maybe a high one handle maybe to slower than where we'd been but not terribly. So, and we do think that it's quite possible that chair Powell and his colleagues on the FOMC there's a reasonable probability they can achieve the soft landing sorta how chairman Greenspan did back in the nineties where you had an extent. Monetary tightening in ninety four it was very difficult at the time for financial markets, but on net of recession did not result, the feds stop tightening and achieved a soft landing higher monetary policy rates some tightening without a subsequent recession. That's their stated goal. I think the markets are suggesting they have a reasonable probability of cheating net goal. Of course, they're not the only variable. What happens in China? What happens in Europe trade policy and all the attendant risks around that are things to consider as well. RJ gala will have you back again. Lots to talk about across the fed RJ gal senior portfolio manager heterogenous with bond investment group and head of the duration committee for federated investors. Join us on the phone from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Well, Theresa May accept it. The European Union's offer to extend Brexit's October thirty first and must now sell it to skeptical members of parliament in a conservative party losing patients in her leadership to get the latest. We welcome Lino Laurent columnists covering finance markets for Bloomberg opinion. He calling us from a London Elino. Thank you so much for joining us. What does this extension mean for Theresa May? And her government. So essentially will this extension does is by mole time, and we have to again stress that this is the second extension grunted by e leaders to the UK. So there is a sense of deja vu. But if now, and it's Hon will never ending political impasse setting in. But as you say, the boo is now in the UK's, cool, and Theresa May is simply going to have to try all of her options again with a bit more time, which includes trying to pass the deal that has been rejected three times by our own parliament paps it make it through a fulltime. Oh, working with Jeremy Corbyn, the real enemy of the conservatives to get a potentially different deal that would get a different but postive support in parliament. So there are options the Christie there is more times which is options, but even with more options from history tells us, or at least what we've seen the last two and a half years. That the chances of getting this done by the thirty first of slim to none. I what what is concerning me as a as a former trader in the guys talking to on the street is I'm hearing that this makes the no deal risk gone that there's a sense of complacency. That's come over the of the currency markets. And that we can now step in and buy sterling without the worries that preceded it of a deal ending by Friday. How does that feel to it? That feel to to me. It doesn't feel good to either. That's what it was. I think I think he would be right to date cautious. And the reason why simply because the next date to bear in mind is to fast, right toddling? And essentially what you have to bear in mind is if if you see this as, you know, oversee it's a cliche to talk about a game of chicken. But the point is if we get choked up with eighty I and there is no progress we have to ask ourselves, whether the EU which by this point, we'll have already had European parliamentary elections, which the UK will have had to take part in would not have to decide whether it wants the commission, the executive which is going to have a a sort of long, you know, tum- at and unu- a whole new, you know, arithmetic a whole new team of people with a an, and they they sit on November first and the east gonna. Decide whether it really wants Brexit too. In fact, European decision making and my concern is that the more time goes on the mo- preparations for audio. Brexit will be finalized. And you know, sadly, the accident theory is possible or even the political will to leave with a Modibo on either side, we'll be that too. So I'm not convinced that the mobile risk is gone. Well, we can sense even over here in the US the sense of frustration and resignation on the part of obviously the members of parliament. But also, the British people isn't it to the point now, or that, you know, it's clear that the existing plan isn't going to work can't work doesn't have any support that it's probably worth coming back and trying something new whether that's a second referendum or something else. Aren't we at that point? We are at that point. We could say we were at that point a couple of months ago, you could say we were at that point. Maybe even at the end of all shifts. The the problem is that politics is about other things, and there is a lot of delay of self interest here. And I think that's the concern is that there is just making from the as many incentives to do the right thing by the voters than that. We might prefer. So the this the self interest of perhaps elected representatives to maybe keep that jobs. Maybe they think that they will lose it. If they advocate full a second referendum, some kind of new radical change. And I think on both sides what we're seeing is political reluctance to take responsibility for Brexit. I appreciate up until now it really has been the UK that should have taken responsibility it hasn't. And I think we're also seeing the EU reluctant to do the work for it and take responsibility for the home of of an audio Brexit's the right now, it is very much. A political game rather than doing the right thing for the for the country. Any chance of may twenty third. She said perhaps that you would like to have something done by me twenty third. So it's not participate in the EU elections. These these little possibilities. And remember that the most hotline Brexit, supposes view, European elections as absurd vote align treason on the other hand, given that she has accepted this potential fast expansion we announced in the realms of possibility. Everything is now possible that could be European elections in in the UK. And maybe they might be a catalyst for change. Maybe if the conservatives do three Pooley, maybe as a different kind of sentiment in the country, pro labor, pro Europe, all the other way, you might see you might change Lionel. Thank you so much on the run columnist covering finance and markets for Bloomberg opinion in London, I can actually hear the resignation in his voice as we can with many other folks as we discussed this issue. Well, T mobile is in the throes of trying to close its proposed acquisition of sprint and all-stock deal currently valued at almost thirty billion dollars. But the regulators aren't so sure to get the latest on what is going on in the world of wireless in US. We welcome John Butler, Jonah's senior Telekom. And also Bloomberg intelligence. He joins us live in our Bloomberg interactive brokers studio here in New York, so John it looks like the regulators are a little concerned here why? So they're concerned about the agregation of share that would occur if you get sprint and T mobile together. Together, they'll have over one hundred million retail wireless subs which will be right on par with for rise in an AT and T so overnight you would have a market with three big players as opposed to the four players you have right now. And I think they look at what T mobile has done in terms of wireless pricing over the past five years. They. By the way, have been very aggressive in pricing, their wireless plans and have really sort of kept eighteen team Verizon, honest, if you will. So I think the big concern to sort of close out the question is if suddenly they're on par in terms of size with AT and T M Verizon are they going to need to really go out with low prices to get subs. You know when that's the concern. Is that the question? I mean, it it seems to me that seem what T mobile is done. They probably just keep continuing to do that to keep trying to gain market share. Because as you said, they're not any bigger than Verizon or AT and T just puts them in the same league. So I'm not so sure I just don't get the DOJ response to this. I mean, do I guess as you say they feel like prices are gonna go up from here. Yeah. I mean, we think is businessman, and we look at it. And we say, you know, g t mobile has been very successful with this strategy. Deji? Why would they suddenly back off of it just because they're bigger? I don't think they will there a disruptor by nature. I think they're going to continue to do that. Exactly. And I don't think it regularly and they can't compete in the streaming business yet either. So they still need something to go after the two big is, right. Exactly. I think the telcos naturally are moving into content distribution. And I I really applaud that by the way, I think it's a good move. It's getting to be a crowded market. But to get back to what we were saying, I don't see T mobile amending their behavior as a marketer in any way. But I'm not sure the regulators see that or look at the market from that angle. I'm sure the, you know, the easy thing for the regulators. And from an antitrust perspective is they're just saying, hey, we're going from four to three that's enough for us to block the deal. I'm sure that that's the simplistic way to look at it. But the reality is aren't the economics kinda of toughen the US wireless business like don't they have to merge? Otherwise, one of these guys assist going to blow out. Of the business. They do. I mean at the it's funny telecom is a scale business where the capital ass. I mean, really if you're the big guy in the market, you can really sort of call the shots so to speak, and if you're a subscale player like t mobile and to a much greater degree sprint. You're in a very disadvantaged position. And then as upgrades happen over time. They requires a lot of capital you end up as a subscale player getting further and further behind so I think ultimately if this deal doesn't go through sprints going to have to either partner with someone or I thought or think they'll have to become a regional player and sprint. Obviously the one that the greatest disadvantaged. Yes, evidently, you know, it almost seems like the way you're telling the story as as you say, we think about this as businessman if it continues to go down this road and sprint continues to suffer it almost. Sounds like t mobile could come in and rescue them at the back end of this. And combine anyway, they really could in a way because again, this small get smaller and the big bigger in scale market like telecom for T mobile, though, I think if a deal gets denied, you know, alternately they're going to have to invest more to because if you look at their their spectrum portfolio those airwaves where they're offering wireless. They have some big gaps there that AT and T M Verizon, don't so I think they're going to need to step forward and spend a lot of money just to fill those gaps. And then they're gonna have the added expense of rolling out five G on top of it. So you know, even three or five years hand. So they're going to have the capital to come back to the table and try them by sprint. Not sure on that one for sprint. It would make sense for a cable operator to make maybe look at them because in terms of moving into adjacent markets the cable guy. Are now starting to test the waters in wireless. So I don't think sprint is out of options in the wake of this steel not going through. But like you've insi- sort of look at it and question what the regulators are thanking so John I know you at Bloomberg intelligence. You guys have the advantage of working with some great experts, including Jenry does antitrust. What is Jen saying in terms of the odds of this getting approved? So I was chatting with Jen about that. And we agree that the odds of it not going through are probably in the range is sixty percent or so so forty percent that it does get an okay, it's a tough one to call. It always comes down to the wire in a case. Like this where you know, just as we were talking about sprint almost can make the failing firm argument of, hey, if this doesn't go through where done, right? I'm not sure where they really are in that position where they're completely done. And so who knows if they'll win the day they are. But I think right now we're looking at a forty percent chance that the deal yet said, okay inching, that's probably not what the companies were envisioning on. They announced this deal. Interesting. John butler. Thanks so much for keeping us on top of what is going on with the sprint T mobile deal in the US wireless business Janis is senior telecoms analysts for Bloomberg intelligence. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg PL podcast. You can subscribe. And listen to interviews at apple podcasts, or whatever podcast platform, you prefer on Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at Sweeney and Lisa Abramowicz. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramowicz. One before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg radio.

US Bloomberg fed T mobile Dr Jonathan Gruber sprint Pittsburgh European Union AT New York Simon Johnson MIT UK congress FOMC Theresa May Verizon
Death Stranding: 2019's Most Divisive Game - Beyond Episode 615

Beyond!

50:13 min | 1 year ago

Death Stranding: 2019's Most Divisive Game - Beyond Episode 615

"This episode of podcast beyond is brought to you by twitch beyond and hello everyone my name is Jonathan Dornbush and this podcast beyond episode My name is Jonathan Gruber Shyam your host for this week as I have been for a couple of weeks now and we are here beyond that point beyond of course strengthening doesn't come out for the PS four until November seth stranding what he's stranded in the review this game Tristan Ogilvie I believe from our team reviewed this game go check out his review it's about the video reviews roughly about ten minutes long but it is one of the most entertaining we all agree or disagree with the points made we'll get into some of that it is well worth point a review score upsets you a cool trick is to just pretend that's not there you know Tristan scored this a six point eight I wanted to talk about the general tenor periods to watch since I've been here because there are I feel like so many different so much to the way that people feel about this game I I haven't seen this before how do you go to of young was able to allocate a significant number of resources out there I I value that I love that I wish there was more is actually out now or like they're close in the wild and something that we've been it feels real those weird having having done this job as long as we all have to be able to sit product it is in the wheelhouse of incredible sort of weird and the air is out now the cats had talked about interesting does a great job of addressing all of that creators and just the industry in general people just have wanted to know for years what is death stranding and one two minute one hundred which makes it really hard when people say hey be that one of your friends took on after a very violently this is a much more complicated piece of art so yeah very wise to a certain extent because both aspects really mattered to this game but I think I'm Puerto Bridges sent out on your quest to reconnect America By walking walking walk you're carrying packet your mailman you're are walking simulators a says longtime I very reductive way to look at this game hiking when you think walking simulator you think like what remains of youth fincher gone home turning in their game play in the moment of walking from one thing to another it's not literally sometimes go show up yeah well so I WanNa talk about let's there's a lot to Parson this even on foot obviously we've seen vehicles introduced in trailers and everything that with a vehicle right those beginning sections because most of your missions are Hey Kerry some of this material one to make sure Sam doesn't fall over and your package what yeah and so it's a big long track of him constantly kind this isn't too bad I really liked the opening and I was like I don't mind and that's what that's kind of what the I like I don't know I'd say five hours are is like complain about it in the phantom pain would say it's very similar in that it's like it like I don't know you you do you do upgrade your things and you start getting a little tidbits par for the course for sort of traditional Kajima Fair where well we made it a little bit better for yet that's what it says that's texting office and again like like interesting art like it's all over the replayed Kajima game in any demonstrable way I've played maybe like two or three hours of the first metal gear solid take us to the game play it never bothered me like the the baby crying that's something definitely true does have a child whether or not straining me be a better we'll see what happens so few hours to me I didn't know what to go in expecting things just clicked in my brain where I went oh that's the game play right now the game play this journey honesty's something that we should like totally shrug now Most Open World Games are essentially journey to whatever the resolution yes you're almost review of like oh just where less boxes just like it's so carrying as much as possible right and got someone just asked me can you make two trips and I'm like well Walker there you can do partial delivers Oh yes yeah but hugh trip game holy you then you death stranding me about this game is I think very intentionally pushing back against what we're used to doing in a game whether separate apartments in January and like I was not expecting to revisit dat is actually a lot of the bulk of this game yeah and I don't think that that's inherently like delivering something and having somebody on the receiving end of that delivery be happy anyway wonderfully Cathartic you kind of like you stole exactly what I was going this it's a call meditative game which I don't think I don't know if a go and I'm like okay I'm going to try to get from here to there but I'll stop at all these places along al-Qaeda the rewarding nature of getting to someone and Ah yes dystopia in animal crossing but I like I was this is sort of undermining the frustrating parts a lot sure because I do think it pushes back a it's just there to exist to be like relax and just bring people asleep like literally by design like there's a lot here that makes meant that I derive from getting to a point on a cliff or a turn on a hill and being that's what works for Gamma Fis your own stubbornness yeah like one of the biggest like what are the biggest hurdles right and I was expecting me to to to kill me more I guess got death in the title but yeah I guess I guess I'm taking the scenic route I mean if you look at something I read dead which killed constantly and punishes you this again that tells you like it almost like like six big Brash Sports Dad's no I'm not stopping asking dumb man and then dropping three or four of them breaking a bunch of plates wasn't say like one of the biggest differences this is the safest way to get there where distracting doesn't do anything like that you make a marker lot has sometimes that's not always the best and you want to follow that line that you've yeah theory but you know when it's terrain not so much and we're so used to games either making it so I got to that really well too right or you would draw a straight line to get there and you think again weird addition but okay one of the few things to survive until the controller to see the map sideways and you'll be like this looks like an easy enough route you're just terrified like a a at the beginning like the coming up over a hill and it actually and this is weird because this game is rooted in the Decima engine up mountains sucks as bad timing spot in that game and it was funny desk grabs a lot of the weirdest and worst and most broken elements ramming and a lot of that is sort of weaponized in this game to be part Janki at times as you're sort of shimmying down a mountain or falling or like fall flat on your face like trip over like very rudimentary sort comes the realization that like if you land on your chest your baby screaming mission delivery at this is my game sucks to rush less finishing it I was like okay I'm just gonNA completely not care about the pace I'm going and just do what it takes And I do want to clarify that is not a thing that tristen did not rush to this extensively I am absolutely early experiences game and I I appreciate it for that because I I got to put like twenty role to honestly we're talking about the parts of this game that we've discovered over the last three weeks is all there and I feel like that stuff has like kind of Jima he did it is usual thing where I feel like there's a lot of stuff he's shown since day one will this game by the time the final trailer came out and I was like well I'm really glad I seen a good deal of this game it in a promotional material that kind of spoil something for measure yeah I and frivolously machine-gunning spoiler stuff everywhere and don't don't read the ESRB rating by the way ages strange but let's go to something we can talk about that we have been avoiding it goes seaboard yes which have been a large part of the marketing this stuff you can't I got all the money buddies what they are because you you're not sure how they're gonNA react to you a certain things that I thought should have been happening weren't happening like I was like okay I've seen then I was like okay this is fine for the most part I actually kind of found it like there's Muzquiz there and I need you to collect my scattered cargo so then the point at that point is and you go get it for me Mr. Mailman syncing Go see boys all that yeah exactly Brandon Tyrrell's and even if you're on a motorcycle and it's like man that's like and it's like you're just like oh I will say that the business of Ida ah I is a running theme in like very sort of like but you can't skip them you got the problem aim teaches you very early that you shouldn't because they add cut scenes to menial things of course that's but anyway I was terrified of skipping cut scenes because you just never know when same certain started channel it's rarity GonNa make an hour long compilation game whatever the most like soothing repetitive thing as we should just make an running with a lot on Dane you started skipping them and you get to important stuff and you think it's and then you get into the stuff that actually matters and you start like sort of at the end of the day it says like how many times you died and that's like taking a shower going p there's all these things and I'm like yes that's the thing drop a deuce and other did I don't need to see that every time yeah I own you enjoy a repetitiveness that works for me but yeah there are odd back and forth with characters like it bums me out that when you deliver packages there's maybe two okay so much of this works and so much of this doesn't let's like sort of jam it's got the trappings of almost PT and the leftover bits for metal gear solid up that would be a better game like the fact that every time you come near goes who's you can spend less time getting through section than you can waiting to get into the attempt to take those things and throw so much weight and gravity onto them joints you know I it's like not even like a flat tire when you're driving try to rush through me to get through this then you get caught yeah then you get pulled under gave reminds me of like red dead when it's like I'm trying to get something done and I I kind of stumble is like trying to get to the edge to get him to go away and was the first time in this whole show like chastise something for not being fun but I do think that there is shing back so hard is antithetical to the entire ideology of for a baby mood because I honestly think this is pretty damn easy gather is the symmetric cinematic mode it just it just make within the confines of conflict which happens like we said very rarely inches yeah because the the hardest parts of the game it's getting under three hours this game is not under three hours there's no way you I think metal gear solid five might be my favorite game ever I've gone back and forth about it has a lot of things wrong with that game that I'm like man it would have been cool if he'd gotten you know carte blanche it was also refining a formula that he invented like thirty two years this is definitely about I don't know if we can talk about fully until this game is out for a few months and that's these social thing is the fact that you can give people a thumbs up and they have likes they can spend us Sam you are criminals likes to get certain star ratings and whatnot it's I mean it's like it's the whatever it's actually a thing you can use yeah and you have the ability with resources players store their contents and they're both in your own locker and a shared locker with other players Michael with a batteries would constantly because there is that survival element this game which is like die from like not having enough nutrients or this and that doesn't out or whatever it is wet but like inching along and building generators bridge and crossing not that a player left there that's when things really start to get that sort

Jonathan Dornbush Tristan Ogilvie Jonathan Gruber three hours thirty two years one two minute ten minutes three weeks five hours
BPR Full Show 2/10/21: Senate Impeachment Trial, Day Two

Boston Public Radio Podcast

2:46:16 hr | 3 months ago

BPR Full Show 2/10/21: Senate Impeachment Trial, Day Two

"Support for boston. Public radio comes from the d'amore mckim school of business at northeastern university where experienced powered learning can prepare students to meet the demands of the digital first economy. It's business education reimagined northeastern dot. Edu slash be more and aware recovery care committed to pioneering an in-home pandemic safe drug and alcohol addiction treatment program in massachusetts. Now you can recover at home. Aware recovery care dot com ahead on boston public radio. Democrats are pushing ahead on one point nine trillion dollar covid relief plan. It would bring many americans. Another round of direct payment checks the plan of sport of the public but this concern within congress that approving much spending now will hinder by visibility to spend for his build back better platform over the next four years economist. John gruber will join us for an economic end. Political analysis it tokyo olympics playbook is well anything. Definitive olympic committee is determined with the games on this summer. Preliminary plan has unveiled. Just how much remains up in the air. The may allow fans approval cheering and high fives and hugs as for the athletes heavily restricted and monitored movement and socializing national security analyst juliette crime which join us to discuss this and more ahead on boston. Public radio will open the lines to review day. One of trump impeachment trial and preview day to all that ahead eighty nine seven gb h mercury. And you're listening to our number one of boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h. good. Morning jim madryn size soon. People know we're about an hour away from the start of day. Two of the impeachment hearings a little bit later in this hour will invite you to talk about a review of day. One and a bit of a preview of day to but i joe biden knows what it means to inherit an economic calamity responding to an economic disaster one of the first things barack obama and biden had to do in two thousand nine today. Biden's in a similar position having it as much cash to americans and get it to them fast. And he knows that unlike obama's economic rescue he needs to go big if he wants to quote him build back better his one point nine trillion dollar covert rescue packages progressive. Ambitious in scale and majors break deficit. Phobic spell that so many democrats have been under. Join us talk about the economic and political wisdom of biden stimulus package from one. It's creating a debate within the party and among some economists jonathan gruber. John is the ford professor of economics at mit instrumental in creating both the massachusetts health reform. And the ford will characters. Latest book is jump. Starting america breakthrough science can revive economic growth and the american dream. Jonathan gruber good to talk to you as always good to be here so john gruber greater taught you again. It seems so. The american public is enthusiastic about this. One point nine trillion that And most communists seem to be as well except for Assam republicans obviously. Don't like it. And larry summers who. Democrat was big advisor to bill clinton and barack obama. He didn't like it either president of harvard. Along the way to this right he was also president harvard. Forget about that yet. That was that was a big job. Yeah he got in a little hot water over there at harvard. I guess about that biology professor but in any case. He's big big time economists. So i'm who's right. Well i full disclaimer. Larry summers edition to a much lower Thing lists use of my. He was my adviser as well But but look i think this is. This has been an exciting debate. And i thought hard about it and i guess i think there's two ways to think about it and in one way i'm much less worried than summers. I don't really strongly agree with them another way. I agree with him more. So i way to look at this is let's think about one point nine trillion relative to what we need so the question is what do we need as an economy. Here's the debate revolves around the exciting. What's called output gap. That is how much the economy's below with potential so think of economies yourself at around three in the afternoon so you have a potential output. That's what you're producing at nine. Am when you're fresh out of the gate and you weren't tired yet and then you have your actual output which is how much less you're producing. 'cause it's three o'clock on your burned out right. So you'd like to feel about a gap that's the whole idea of the snicker snickers campaign okay. But what if you grab to snickers could you end up to sugared up to jitter to focus and actually get less done that if you hadn't tried sugar at all so in some sense could live for the economy to getting to sugared. Up is folks having so much money to spend on goods with a limited supply of goods that they start to bid up prices causing inflation. The idea would be people have a lot of money in the bank right now. After all incomes actually went up last year after you count all the government transfers. They have a lot of money in the bank. They're ready to spend it. There's not that much to spend it on because a lot of stuff closed if you start giving them more money they're gonna they're gonna bid up prices now. This is a legitimate theoretical article argument. The question is is that really relevant right now And the problem is there's a lot of unknowns. We don't know how tired we are We don't know what our peak level output is or. Whatever i look at it is and we after we haven't seen inflation in years And i think honestly were more likely to be in a situation where more sugar is just going to get us closer to where we need to be. Then it'd be in a situation. More sugars can actually get us over the line and start to cause damaging inflation. What can we stay on that output gap thing or whatever it's called for a second apple ear and again i have to do my mandatory. Marta regan impression not economy. I am not an economist. Right and neither is margarita. Regan however enormous economic times or in a classroom. I assume you can s the estimate. What the output is supposed to be. And then you calculate the gap win. The output gap or deficit is a function of a pandemic which is pretty unpredictable. It seems to me. We're gonna talk about with our kaplan later variants the ability to even predict what the gap is much less how much you should fill. It is really limited. Is it not john gruber. i agree. I think that's why. I don't find this particular part of the argument that convincing. I think that the odds that we are going to be overshooting here are pretty low. Compared to how low inflation's been how far we have to go before inflation really ramps up so we're going to give for that one. What's not enough not enough. We get a chance. I you know. I'll be on that one Because because he's right in theory there's still a chance. I think he's overplaying it because i think that basically the odds are low enough that that shouldn't really be driving our decision making. We stood back for one second. I don't understand how people can have. Which are the people that have more money in the bank and are doing well. I mean we're still seeing food lines all over the place people. That can't pay their rent. People can't pay their mortgage. I mean you know all these people unemployed so obviously not. Doing there is Well i mean marjorie. This is just the classic issue of looking at the data versus looking at the anecdotes gonna believe the date or your own is basically yes. It's true there are people that are hurting but the us savings rate which is inaccurate. How much money in. The bank is up. Massively it's up like four fold because a lot of people got checks. You didn't need them and a lot of money got put into the economy so there are still people hurting but once we think about the output gap. That's not about people who are hurting. That's about on how much money economy missing before can run before it starts to run so hot. The prices go up and summers has. That's why i'm i'm like even. I think you're wrong on the f. I think it's a legitimate argument that we may be when i was far from that. You think i just think a given it. We don't know what that gap is. I mean as i said we haven't inflation years and be with these new variants a lot uncertainty coming. I think the odds that becomes a big problem pretty small. Okay so what is other concern about this. The other concern is i think More realistic and that's a bottom up way of looking at this. So let's look at what the money gets spent on. Let's get beyond the one point nine trillion. And that's what is the one point nine trillion. We can find four buckets bucket. One is stuff that we absolutely have to do. testing getting schools open money for childcare increases in food stamps okay. That is absolutely have to do it. I would argue strongly for that. I think summers would to. That's about twenty five percent of the total bucket to is stuff we probably should do but quite honestly bill probably just too much of it so that'd be a disdain local governments which you advocated before but if you look at the latest data this bill puts about three hundred and fifty billion dollars into it which is probably more probably at least twice what they actually need to fill their okay And the unemployment insurance. I think four hundred dollars is too large bonus to give to people. I think two hundred dollars would get them where they need to be so that stuff we should do doing too much of it. That's about forty percent of the bill. Okay then their stuff in the bill. That's bucket to so bucket one we should do. That's twenty five percent bucket to we should do. But probably maybe half of that's forty percent bucket. Three is stuff which is a good idea to do if not clear why we want to do it now. Stuff like the child credits. I talked about last week. Our insurance subsidies. I have no problem if you think. Hey this vehicle to get good things to happen. I have no problem with that. That's about ten percent and then finally the checks to people that's the twenty five percent and that's what we've discussed extensively before on this show and noted on the show. Most of that money goes to people who don't need it because of the pandemic i'm not saying they don't need it. This is something i think. It's hell our conversationalist have been helpful. I'm not saying they don't need it. I'm not arguing where people should be. I'm just saying the pandemic isn't really recently given that money because most of them if they've lost their jobs gonna employment insurance So that's why if you look at the last round of checks. More than seventy percent of them were saved when seventy percent of the dollar an unemployment insurance more than seventy percent with spent so basically. This is money and so essentially let me just let me just finish up so so basically the question then becomes boxer. Let me stop there. Aren't there questions about those facts. One of the things. I read one of his concerns. From what i understand about this where the money is going and where it's not going as he's concern that unlike what he says he argued was too small at the time. The obama rescue package. And i think the consensus is that it was just wanna know if he's telling the truth about what his position was internally resist trying to do a cya after the fact he's talking about the fact that there's not enough investment in this rather than relief and to be able to be a build back better. We need to be able to invest going forward. What the hell is the state and local stuff a huge amount of state and local. Well okay but so. Let's talk about his argument. So basically you might come back and say well why not. Okay larry fine. There's some extra state and local. Maybe that'll build back. Better the some extra employment but those people are hurting. You know why not send checks And the answer for why not is two reasons. And here's where i think One reason i am very much with larry and one reason. I'm unsure one reason as i said before is the bill does openly have to get paid okay and as i said before on the show was zero interest rates. We should go nuts on investment. It pays for itself but transfers don't pay for themselves giving someone fourteen hundred dollars does not pay for itself and we just because interest rates are zero. Doesn't mean we should the bill oakley does come do and so why not is not a compelling argument and so basically that's point one and i absolutely agree with that point too is more sort of political economy which is do we does. The does this spending make it less likely that get more productive spending. And here's comes to your question. Him just giving money to state and local governments is not nearly as productive as explicitly investing in things like infrastructure and science investment. Indeed if you look at past episodes of getting money state on to some extent will preserve jobs but if you give them what they need alive is just going to go into continue quite frankly overpay a number of overpaid civil servants And also may say may restore the million jobs or so in the public sector and and that's the half you need. Yeah that's the half you need but but the rest if not. It is not clear that that's gonna be invested as opposed to what biden wants to do next which is a three hundred billion dollar increase in. Rnd a massive increase in infrastructure major investments in climate. So here is to my mind. The crux of the issue so in other words on the inflation part. I don't i summer's overstating it on the sort of. Let's not waste money. I completely agree with him. The big issue is. Does this make it less likely or more likely that will end up getting the long run investments. We really need and here. I think the argument comes out of two pieces. One is this making harder to get republicans on board and there. I just think who cares. Republicans aren't coming on board. This fifty world The second is what does it do about two to the to the moderate democrats to joe mansion. Who's daca being klein to support a bill with very focused on climate. Change come from west. Virginia and two other moderate democrats. Do they have view of well. The dollars we put in now our dollars. We can't put in later. And i don't know and larry no either. This is where biden and his team need to go to mansion. Athen that question which is to say is the daljeet put in this now subsequent for more productive dollars later. Answer's yes then. I completely agree with larry. We need to scale back a lot. If the answer is no which may very well be because the popular bill it may build support it may increase the odds democrats routine the senate you john. John john mansion may not have spoken on an issue. Two thirds of the american people. Many of whom didn't vote for joe biden have spoken on this issue. And they believe that even if it turns out. There's a little more than is necessary after eleven months of unbelievable suffering by real people in this country to quote janet. Yellen who i prefer to larry summers. I'd rather risk going to big rather than risk going to small especially since no one knows precisely what the reality is going to be going. Most of these checks are not going to people who have suffered the. How did you send that under. Seventy five thousand dollars is not suffering. Okay cried marjorie. Say think in this situation in this pandemic. I think politics wise. And you mainly why. Despite larry summers says much better to give something to some who don't need it then not to give enough to those who are desperate. I mean and you certainly politically don't want to have in both joe biden situation that donald trump gave more to people who desperately needed it then then biden is i mean. This is part of the reason he got elected. You know i'm surprised jim. You haven't brought up your all barack obama quote. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. whoops forgot. It just seems like this is not the time for this kind of arguing. Especially from a guy. Larry summers you mentor. Naomi climb i. I don't know larry summers. I'm sure he's a brilliant guy. But the great environmentalists quote about him is he's been spectacularly wrong over and over again. Let's not mentoring of john gruber pilot. Larry larry get very bad rap. He's been spectacularly right a number of occasions and we can have a separate show but if you want. But don't is he is he he. He's gotten a very bad rap relative to where they actually point. I guess he's about him it. This is not the time for this argument with the politics so fragile as they are with with many millions of people significantly in need. You don't also not a political analyst. He's a comedy. I agree and the part on the economy is the money. The party kind of which is relevant guys is. The money isn't free agree. You do have to pay it back but your tears to me. John let me just. Let me. Just get this in here. I don't want to belabor this but it seems to me that the underlying debate. Assuming there is one. And i have to say. I've read every economist on this issue. But summers is clearly the outlier on this package. I would say i. I think that's fair. It seems to me. The underlying debate is Whether or not we should be worried at a time like this about amassing huge additional debt or Or not and she let me just gave a massive tax cuts to billionaires and millionaires incorporate about the death absolutely. I totally agree. But that's why if if you re that's a we shouldn't worry about the dentists making investments that are opening economy to grow. But be this comes to your point marjorie and here is. Here's here's my political economy point which is less about the infrastructure bill and more about something. We also vitally society which is higher taxes on the wealthy. The problem with higher taxes on the wealthy is that the if you raise saxon the wealth of the rest of the people. Say well i. I don't know. I might be wealthy someday. I don't want that. What if you paired these four hundred dollar checks with higher taxes on the wealthy then you get the higher tax on the wealthy if we're going to be giving away money to the middle class. Let's pair it with the large tax increases leading the wealthy. Well john do you. You unlike the one point nine trillion which is not paid for the at least from what i last heard joe biden talk about the infrastructure package. Which is yet to be filed. He does intend to pay for with a tax on the rich. I'm not sure you can get it from this. Congress even from the democrats but his intention is the pay for the infrastructure. Bill which i think at least in theory and this is all theory would allay some of the concerns. That larry summers of the world. I absolutely right absolutely right. The problem is jim. it is distressingly harder. Tax distressing are politically. So here is my point. If you imagine imagine following scenario imagine we cut the fourteen hundred dollars to seven hundred and then said the next seven hundred coming in the next bill and in that next bill. We're gonna make it so the next bill has We're going to explicitly tie tax the rich to the seven payments to people. Here's my response. That then we gotta go as the only thing. More important larry summers and john gruber then economic theory when it comes to packages like this is honoring commitments to the people who sent you to your office The to george senators joe biden. Promised two thousand dollars to the american people. They should deliver two thousand dollars to the american people. The time to have that debate was during the campaign. The campaign is over. They won in part and the democrats have a majority in quotes fifty votes plus one. Because of as margin i've said regularly warnock's great campaign slogan won a two thousand dollar. Check vote warnick. I think unfortunately the time for the debate even if it was meritorious has passed and we have the debate on the next thing. Can we leave it there for now and i think that's i think that's totally reasonable john. We enjoyed this actually quite a bit. Send our best to your mentor and talking. Sorry i'm sorry if i it quoted unkindly your mentor. But it wasn't look look. I am i. We have to sit back. And it's worth evaluating these arguments. But i think it's i think we should evaluate them without putting the context of past Past attacks and i'll be true though we live in the world of attacks. John come on john to turn over another. You are trying to attack last but anyway. Hey john thanks so much. You bet taking these guys. Jonathan gruber joins us regularly is before economics. Mit conest it would be. I get lost in those weeds jen. He was instrumental in massachusetts healthcare. Formerly affordable care. Act his latest book jump. Starting american how breakthrough science can revive economic growth. And the american dream. Thanks so much for joining us. John coming up. Juliet cayenne joins us to talk about her. Anti vaccine crusade years in the making all morale today sheer for that and much more next on eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. You're listening to boston public radio but you probably knew that i'm jim brown. And she is smarter. Join talk with the latest national security headlines as juliet kim juliet's and analyst. Cnn former assistant secretary of the department of homeland security and faculty chair of the homeland security program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government. Hello there juliet. Good afternoon and good impeachment week. We'll see what did you think of yesterday. Juliet so i thought it was very powerful and obviously that video despite how much you in the three of us have felt saturated by the images putting them all together in a in a in a chronological order. About what had happened over. The course what he what trump was doing during it what he did what he would he was tweeting out that last image of his tweet. I thought it was just so powerful. Because the i think the the whitewashing sorry for using that trump it. Actually it is kinda whitewashing. The way washing of the force of the riots has been forgotten. You know so it was a bunch of crazy people. You know. Just doing their thing. I mean it was violent. And so i thought that was very powerful. I thought raskin was remarkable. Congressman raskin was remarkable in in in giving gravity to the the shock and horror of that day and putting it nicely into into legal terms and there is a little bit of movement by the republicans. But once again. I i don't i don't view i view this impeachment proceeding for two reasons. One is is. We've talked about before. is you know. Trump is the leader of a domestic terrorism movement. He needs to be isolated. This is part of that isolation even if he doesn't get impeached our he's been impeached but he doesn't get convicted and the second is the republican party has to be on record about About this and i thought that's weird. That video was so important. Is a reminder that this was not just another day trump world that this was a constitutional crisis so far. I've been really pleased. Speaking of trump as leader of domestic terrorism movement. I hope people out there have seen this. Brilliant newer times breakdown with a huge amount of research and reporting of everybody has been arrested so far all the the insurrectionist wit who came from organized groups. Who didn't what they've been charged with my major takeaway and i'm curious to hear what yours is Juliet is that the vast majority of individuals who were there were not affiliated with any proud boys or whatever and so what's the significance that at least to me is. According to the times they came as individuals individuals because they thought the election had been totally. Where did they learn that from. They learned that from his use. Say the leader of the movement. Donald trump which i think i think the new york times piece and i assume it's going to be cited as part of the sixteen hours from raskin and his colleagues makes the case even stronger than they were there because donald trump old them to be there. No yes absolutely. And this is consistent. There's a wonky debate going on amongst people like me about how relevant trump is to this movement in other words has just unleash something already there. There's no question that we have a domestic terrorism problem especially when you it to a foreign terrorism problem. And i don't mean to minimize it but i have long believed in been writing that the isolation and i'll use counterterrorism we're in st kappa tation of trump. The leader not physically but but policy wise. We'll go far in making recruitment difficult making oregon or organizing difficult. He organizes people and so just to give listeners. A sense of the of the cases that they That the new york times looked at about twenty. Six of them are charged with conspiracy. Crimes are assault so conspiracy means that they might have been part of a grouping but then another forty-three or just charged with interference with law enforcement and then the vast majority of hundred and seven are charged with trespassing or disrupting congress. Only so so that gives you a sense that these are people who sort of showed up because of trump and then are using what we're calling. The trump defense trump told me to do this in court. So i think that i think people some hope and should also in the sense that the isolation the d platforming the the impeachment of the future criminal investigations and civil investigations against trump and his family are not just about him. They are about a about minimizing a potential for recruitment for larger domestic terrorism movement. So i either to the extent things. Please me these numbers. Please me right in the sense that now. They have no leader. But you know what to me was scary. Because i had this timepiece. We're talking about that. Most were there. Just because i think it was one hundred and seventy five people they looked at and most were there believing that he lost the election is when you saw the that thirty minute video yesterday the the the frenzy and the violence and the and just craziness that people who just believe because they've been told this by by their facebook pages fox news etc they could get so whipped up into a frenzy to crashing through. You know windows and doors and everything was powerful stuff. Yes and and. I think that we can't forget that. And the whipping up obviously came from not just what happened on january six. This is what's been successful in the impeachment process and also lots of media reports around this about the sort of build up beginning in the spring of twenty twenty when when trump started to lay the foundation for a fake election that the election was already going to be stolen. And then certainly it got very very loud as he started to lose his legal cases. So if you look at when trump started to pit to january six. It's as he's losing more and more court cases he loses georgia because he knows that they're not going to budge and then around christmas time is when he starts using the language of fight and he starts Famous tweet It will be wild when he talks about january six and he knew exactly how people were going to hear that. We're going to hear that. And then of course the morning up. Let's not forget he. He he tells them and is typical trump fashion. I'm march up there with you. Of course he doesn't go 'cause he's lazy and an coward but he's more than happy to launch the the writer so this is this is i know. There's a lot of chagrin and like why are the republicans like this. Look all you can do at this. Stage is put them on record and continue to show what in fact january six which was a direct assault on our democracy and and never to be forgotten a direct assault on minority voters. Because that in the end that is what this was. And i say it every time on air never forget. It was because african americans voted in georgia that that led to To this they are more than happy to have white people vote but this was a direct assault on black and minority. Voters juliette marjorie. Let's talk about the most depressing piece. I've read quite some time. I think it was was it for the wall street journal. Jim i think basically said that Get used to it. That life is not going to go back to normal. That we're just going to be coping with this and dealing with and living with coronavirus mutants for quite some time. Pandemic too endemic was the line of the writer. Yeah and we're just we're talking years. Yeah i think that's right and but but but remember remember. The vaccine is a major contributor to Getting back to normal ish. I've always been using the term normal ish but it's not it doesn't it doesn't aratu kate. The virus it simply makes us able to live with the virus. This is the the adaptation that that a lot of us have been talking about that that unlike say a hurricane or tornado an earthquake or even a terror attack and crisis management where the thing comes and goes what we're experiencing In in the world is Is successful people to remember. I'm very very bullish about this. Vaccine successful adaptation to living with vaccine. And as it mutates mutations will be less strong as it hopefully As the vaccine takes hold throughout the globe will begin to live more normal issue normal ish but other aspects of our life probably are changed for four good. I think masking will be a huge part of our lives for the years to come. That's well that's growing certain settings new you're gonna paddock opening story maury. Well you know how you seen. After sars at any pictures of of people in asian countries routinely were in these masks. And you know. I just kind of like to live a life where we're not running tire up here because i'm when i'm reading the story last night i knew you were going to be in a panic. Panic talk juliet. We can agree on that one. Lipstick sales must be in big trouble. Because you don't really need more. Can i cut to. What i think is the chase from the story and juliette. Please correct me if i'm wrong. This is really bad. News for developing nations. Many of which are not gonna even see the vaccine for another year but for us my takeaway is. It's like flu plus going forward. It's not like we're gonna have to stay on. Our couch is like i do for another year. If you consider continuing to make progress. It's going to be. We're not going to renovate it. It doesn't go away and that's the bottom line right and i think that is you know articles like this are actually helpful if you read them as jim reads them. Which is we're getting. no. I think that's right. I knew marjorie. That's right. i make my point. The second we had viruses continue to have viruses. And that's an and we've learned to eradicate or to limit the worst aspects of this virus but it will mutate. There's going to be flu season again. We had a very successful flu season this year because no one went outside and i do think that our behavior will be modified Four indefinitely and i think you're right about sort of masking in terms of some places where we go in my mind as you all know i. I'm i'm a little bit risk averse and probably to risk of respect. I have not been on a plane since about a year. Now which is very unique for me given my lifestyle before the house in about the second right off this. We're all going be wearing masks. Indefinitely is a normal thing. I mean the difference is with the flu. Researchers of people die every year with the flu. We know that usually there are people that are older and they are not in good health. And that's not saying that's great. It's just saying it's something we've learned to live with almost forever at least my whole lifetime but but is because i mean most people are not going through life worried if they go to a concert or they go to the theater or they go into a bar with his dancing and they're dancing in closed quarters that if they get the flu they're going to be dead three days later they're going to be long haul flew survivors of they're gonna have some heart disease or whatever kind of thing i guess that's the thing that if that if the wall street journal pieces right it saying is there's always going to be as undercurrent in whatever we do in life that's in any kind of crowded place that cohen core or you get a booster every year like you get a flu shot every year the point being not a one and done that and we know that the vaccines make make the illness less severe but that doesn't mean we don't know enough about the long haul of this we don't know about these young twenty one year old athletes that have gotten you know these weird After so i guess. I you know i do think living life with a mask or in constant worries not really what i was hoping for. Yeah yeah i know. I know but i mean there was a global pandemic so i i do think that We will live better. I can't this is really a grim month. i will admit to you and Especially here in new england. The incessant snow the the the coupled with cove is just it's mentally hard but as more people get vaccinated as more things open up as we as we control the spread. Our hospitals have have much more bandwidth and the seeming dysfunction in the vaccine. Rollout which were clearly experiencing here in massachusetts gets fixed in real time marjorie in in a couple months. We're going to have too much vaccine. Supply we just if you just look at the numbers of what what is a what is being promised by the industry plus johnson and johnson coming on board. So we're going to be a constant supply. Demand dance over the next couple of weeks but months but it will align itself. And i promise you i mean i think by may or june. You're gonna feel eighty seventy seventy five percent more normal or towards normal than you do right now. This is a really rough month i can. I add another sort july ni rough month. We neither in this house have a car for a variety of reasons that i will not get into but blamed children nor a dishwasher which broke yesterday. And if you want if you want to know what puts juliette. I am over the top. You can do anything and any crisis. Whatever until they find it is it. Is mom losing her dishwasher. This is like you know so. I'm with you everyone. this time. I thought you were going to say. Juliette condo puts mom the top anti vaccine. Because you wrote a piece actually posted by anti vaccine before this you were talking about measles back in two thousand and nineteen less and less tolerant of of the anti vaccine angle. On the covid nineteen virus to particularly the fact that people can work in nursing homes with the most vulnerable people and refused to get vaccinated and keep their jobs by the way before you respond to that you know what state has the highest percentage of nursing home workers vaccinated. Was it west. Virginia virginia number one and everything sixty saw somewhere. Yeah the west. Virginia's i tell you they can all go down there. Enjoy before you respond to that. I i love your piece. I think we've been talked to you about it was in the washington post and i was into this. Let's get tough on these people in the measles kinda thing. 'cause their behavior obviously they send the kid to school etc obviously affects arcade. But it's a little different now. I am totally fine being tough whatever that means on ideological anti vaccine like robert f kennedy jr. who is totally lost his marbles however however people like people of color for example who have a legitimate reason for hesitancy anxiety etc are different kettle of fish. From those who were just doing the ideological stands. I agree with you. So it's this is very important for people to hear because the anti vaxxers want you to think that they're bigger than they are. So here's what the numbers are showing us that there is a distinction between antibac- sers The the crazies the unfor- unforgivable the wacky science or the kennedy You know the the shameful shameful and this is a this is a majority white movement. And i say that purposefully because the other group which is the group that can be nurtured that can be Educated that that is the Those with vaccine hesitancy. This vis group is predominantly minority and in particular hispanic. This is what we're seeing in the data hispanic americans. They are not at no bay are at not. I agree not out for. Let me see what else is out there. So if you put those those people who are looking for validate irs and others right in the pool with people like you and me who you know. Basically kill to be first in line at this stage That's about eighty percent of americans. That's that's your immunity. The other twenty percent. We don't know where they fall. But only small percentage of them are anti baxter's bay should be as i believe this is true with measles they should be ignored isolated arrested if they try to disrupt the supply chain of of of the vaccine And and they will be punished and other ways because what we're in this brand new world. That marjorie has commented on that. She doesn't like as much as she likes. Twenty nine thousand nine hundred. In this brand new world there is going to be a a a massive authentication. Validation data managements aspect to it is going to be the cards or the apps that before you get on a plane proof of vaccine and you're going to see employers not allow people to come in. You're going to see a private industry. Amc and you want You wanna open up movie theaters again in in a in a meaningful fashion. You're going away. The few people that you lose who don't get vaccine versus having a vaccine authentication system so that you could put more people in the room. You're gonna from just a commercial aspect. You're you're just gonna say no vaccine no service right and that's gonna be really interesting about data management and health security and all the difficult issues but But we got to separate those two poles. But i will say something funny so i i do. Look at this data every every day or as it comes out. Kaiser has been doing some amazing pulling. I i tell you i do not worry about the vaccine hesitancy because you see these numbers changing for the better over time vaccine. Vaccination begets vaccination. The more people get it. The more people say but but but there was a polling of people who were vaccine reluctant. And saying you know who would you like to see get vaccinated and obama the although although one guy one guy on his list said to people. Jesus and tom brady needed. He doesn't wear a mask is obviously fine. Hey juliet juliet speak in a sports minute or so left. We mentioned the olympics t before two quick things about this The olympics the tokyo organizers. Say this is going to go on in july. They have a lot of rules. You can't clap to can't saying they're not sure if they're going to be fans one union reindeer. I don't understand why if there's doubt in the world as to whether there should be olympics. I have no idea why there was a super bowl but forget that for a second one of our colleagues looked up how many states a us olympic athletes came from it. The last summer games and the answer was everyone. Forty eight out of fifty states. Forty eight states worth of athletes are going to go admittedly very healthy and in good shape and that sort of stuff unvaccinated almost one hundred percent of them admittedly subject to some rules. And that sort of thing why should not just marjorie. But i worry that this is not going to be a superspreader event when the forty eight states worth of american athletes come home not unlike that motorcycle rally in in the dakotas and we only have minute right. It's so we don't know yet. And i think it is premature to make the decision for the japan olympics but it could be that as a nation we might decide to so put in front of line our competitors. I have no problem with that there. So few of them So that they can have the experience. I do look at this. Through the eyes of the athletes and the athlete pooling know for obvious. Reasons is very gung-ho and i don't think japan has to decide yet. I still think we have a couple of months to see how vaccination distribution goes on and honestly if if the us olympic committee asked the biden white house. Can we put these these athletes and their coaches to the front of the line. No one else for vaccination. I mean i think that's an exception. That most americans might might get behind. I feel bad. This could be a real corruption interrupt for the. If they're juliet good to talk. Always thanks thank you. Bye joins us every week. She's for cnn. Former assistant secretary of the department of homeland security and faculty chair the homeland security program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government cornell going to recap day one of the impeachment trial of president. Donald trump and view was to come. Keep your don eighty nine seventy. Vh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public radio. I'm jim braude she's marjorie. Us senate as you know made history. Yesterday prosecuting past president for the first time it was an emotionally charged opening day in which the prosecution argued that trump was singularly responsible for inciting the deadliest sold on the capital after playing thirteen minute video of the day's harrowing events in chronological order. The house managers made the case. That no senator should let the former president escape accountability as you know in the end only six republicans joined democrats and agreeing to allow the to proceed. Signaling the will likely not be enough to convict trump and a few minutes right for the news we will Do more previewing of day. One and a star talking about day to and bring you reports on. What's happening on day. Two as they happen so we hope you'll join us on the phone right after noon. Only did this morning right for air. Last night. i watched thirteen minute video. We were on the air started. I watched it again at about ten thirty this morning. Challenge anybody who has any doubt about trump's culpability here to watch that video and then give us a call you know when that there's so many moments that are so powerful when that when they are confronting police which they do virtually non-stop the people who really love the place because everybody who doesn't like trump hates the police of course is the line we are listening to trump a. He is your boss. They were there essentially to carry out his wishes. Abusing beliefs threatening the lives of is one of the most powerful thirteen minutes. I have. I have. I've ever seen so again. A we had some people call us yesterday. Who thinks there's no culpability. On the part of trump i would just urge you The call again today. But the one thing i'd ask him advances spent thirteen minutes and nineteen seconds and watch leave. It really was just like a mad riot hate anger. I mean it was just really incredible to watch the thirteen minutes together. So la footage. I hadn't seen before the new yorker got a lot of footage that i hadn't seen before to About some of these police officers extremists and and the guy that was being dragged down the stairs and they were saying take away his service revolver and shoot 'em words that affecting the poor guy i mean the whole thing was was unbelievable. Well also makes clear when you watch this again in chronological order. The vast majority of the people that raided the state the united states capitol. We're following the directions of the president of the united states. They did exactly what he urged them to do. Jim to tweeted about mike. Pence asked was when they go after. Mike pence cries started going inside. The capitol obviously People were they had. Their phones are paying attention to what the president tweeted. You know. we're gonna play some sound from yesterday if you missed it. A particularly jamie raskin who's lead prosecutor. Who was just one of the most moving powerful things but since you are legal expert before we go. I wanna play a little bit. From one of trump's lawyers bruce castor and he. He talks about the natural desire for retribution and the difference between murder and manslaughter. Please please listen. Maria's it's an immediate thing it comes over you without your ability to stop it the desire for retribution. Who caused this awful thing. How do we make them pay. We recognize in the law. And i know many of you are lawyers probably lawyers some thirty five years longer than me many longer than me. Probably and we know we have a. We have a specific body of law that deals with passion and rage blinding logic and reason. That's the difference between manslaughter and murder. Oh and he goes on to say murderers done with called blood. Assume the argument is our client. Trump is only guilty of manslaughter. Not murder seriously is that you're the great law. The best line of the whole night was when it was being discussed last night on cnn. Anderson cooper who was incredulous. As was i i listened. Casteran shown said. I've heard more coherent drunken wedding toasts than i've heard than the two guys who defended trump and trump supposedly was enraged by the way. If they were my lawyers. I would have been enraged too. But he picked him after the original acquit. How 'bout his whole riff about nebraska. That's because ben sasse republican obviously. He's said he may vote to convict trump and he goes on this riff about nebraska additional thinking place maybe senator sas is onto something the nebraska course. You hear what they had to say about an issue that you're deciding this week. I mean he thought. I mean one of my kids texted me and said you know what he's talking about. Well you know but the most important point is clue. They had the most brilliant lawyers in america. Donald trump to there's no defense. I'm going to say again. We're gonna urge you to call eight seven seven three zero one. Eight thousand nine hundred seventy. We'll take your calls right after the news if you have any doubt about the culpability of the former president of the united states who engage in one of the most sadistic deadly tirades to these thousands of people who then went and carried out his orders. Please watch the thirteen minutes and then give us a buzz. Eight seven three zero one thousand nine hundred seventy person that said i forget who it is so pardon me for stealing their lie but somebody said clarence darrow. Couldn't do anything with these facts here but no you couldn't they couldn't. The facts are so are so overwhelming here but anyway we are going to take your calls about that coming back to the news. Eight seven seven three zero one eight nine seven. Bp are at w. g. b. h. Dot org you can tweet us at boss public radio. You're listening to eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. I had them. Boston public radio. We'll take more of your calls on day one and day two of the impeachment trial then just because there's a vaccination citing low income area or neighborhood that's predominantly home to people of color doesn't ensure equitable access to the vaccine by those groups. Us congress person. I on presley will join us to discuss what she calls. The states vaccine. Redline over its uneven inoculation rollout and share her initial thoughts on the impeachment trial. South africa had just halted use of astrazeneca's vaccine after evidence showed it didn't protect people from mild or moderate cases pfizer. Madonna say they're backseats remain effective against new strain medical. Ethicist art. caplan will join us to discuss. The challenges is a rush to vaccinate massive numbers of people against as it continues to mutate more. Help boston radio eighty nine seven. Gbh nothing less in sports. The bruins are in new york for a game against the rangers. Tonight puck drops at seven and the australian open continues tonight where the high temperature and melbourne is now ninety degrees. It is twenty seven degrees outside our studios in boston right now. This is gbh news. Support for npr comes from npr stations. Other contributors include c. three c. three dot i. Software enables organizations to use artificial intelligence at enterprise scale solving previously unsolvable business problems learn more at c. Three dot ai. You're listening to our number two of boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h logan. Jim pay their marjorie so after a vote. That affirmed the of impeaching for president. Trump's second impeachment trial is taking off as we speak bless you. Democratic managers will get a total of sixteen hours divided over two days followed by the same allotment for trump's defense argue for and against the conviction of trump on the charge of inciting an insurrection will bring you coverage throughout the day and the rest of the week taking your calls along the way if you watch yesterday's debate and heard the arguments made by the house. Managers and in particular jamie raskin's emotional account of january six in contrast to the to the bumbling rambling defense a defense presented by trump's legal team. Do you think by the end of the week that more republicans could be moved to convict. Donald trump. the numbers eight seven seven. Three zero one. Eight nine seventy raskin. Just congressman raskin just kicked off. Today's part of the trial. If i may margin. I just wanna play this one part of raskin's presentation yesterday. He's the lead impeachment managers. You'll know and i assume you know His son died by suicide Not too long ago. And that's references in the beginning any buried in the day before you mentioned that right here here is Part of what Raskin has to say starting with what margaritas mentioned. It was the day after we buried her brother. Our son tummy the saddest day of our lives. Chief-of-staff of staff truly taken with tablets and hank locked and barricaded in that office. The kids hiding under the desk placing what they thought were their final texts and whispered. Phone calls to say their goodbyes. They thought they were going to die and when they were finally rescued are told her how. Sorry i was and i promised her that it would not be like this again. The next time she came back to the capital with me and you know what she said she said dad. I don't wanna come back to the capital at which point as you can hear but maybe you can't make sure you could if you saw the jamie raskin congressman. Raskin choked up during his presentation as they said rate for the break. They lead yesterday with this thirteen minutes. And nineteen seconds video chronological order. Donald trump the insurrection. The threats to the police threats to members of congress it was really impressive and i thought overwhelming. You know what. I hope they do today. Though i i read about the possibility that doing this before maybe they changed their minds. Were but that this was. This was a combination of many months of the presence condoning violence against his enemies by his base. We had the the threats against the life of the of the michigan governor gretchen whitmer when the plot was discovered that they these these militia groups wanted to kidnap. And do what. I don't know where they're gonna kill her. I don't know that the president sided with them and not with her and her life being endanger. And then you had the incident Where the trump boss the biden buskers. It was surrounded by the trump flag people and they seem to be running a bus off the road. There was no yes. There was no condemnation from the president against that. And so i think the word was. Hey this is okay. And is the president himself. Said this is what happens when you steal election. i'm paraphrasing. But that was what he said. So it's been a long build up and even back. Excuse me jim even back going to his rallies remember when you know he would say things like. Hey you know. Somebody's protests should be. Don't worry i'll pay. I'll pay for the medical medical bills. You know what would happen. Guy did that in the old days. We beat the crap out. Whatever said it's been a constant with him a i couldn't agree more. He's being called by kong. Som raskin the insider in chief in his opening statement. Today gonna take your calls. Eight seven seven. Three zero one eighty nine seventy. We're going to be joined by presley at the bottom of the hour. We'll take some more your goals different talk. Our medical ethicist to get the latest on. Covid are kaplan. And then we'll take more of your calls again and then you will have access to Day one i guess they to the trial all afternoon here on the boston. Public radio sofia and cambridge. Your i welcome to the show. Hi good morning. Can you hear me. Okay so i don't understand why trump guilt is in question president or not We have a recent case law to support that someone who uses language to incite violence will be held accountable namely michelle carter. Yes local story who encouraged her boyfriend. Who commit suicide which she did. And she was found guilty compelling his doings is she wasn't i think she didn't hand them a gun or bottle pills. She gave him her counsel and encouragement using texts and phone and she was found guilty period. I don't understand why they're not using that argument because the case saw is there and it's recent we are the lawyer jim. Could you use a massachusetts case on a federal law. That i don't think so. Fi is talking about a legal precedent. I think you're talking about just the the concept i mean what michelle carter and i'm shirley surely not defending our behavior pales next to how direct and immediate and causal donald trump's was so the carter thing again on by the way as you know this is not court as gerald ford said about impeachment Decades ago when he was in the house he says impeach of defenses. Whatever we say it is and the constitution. Defensive vaguely so yeah. There's probably some theoretical precedent. But i think it's quite as jamie raskin said if this is not an impeachable offense. Thanks recall they're not gonna impeach and the republicans because they're worried about getting out primary. That's basically it. Who's that guy. Adam kissing her the the From the house for milroy from illinois. Who's republican who has been very courageous outspoken. And he and he he said something. I thought was so important to remember. He said you know we have forever asked Young american men and women more recently women do do do fight and die for their country and we have all these politicians who can't do the right thing because they're worried about losing job. Are they gonna be in the food. Lines congress. People who don't get reelected or senators don't get rented i don't think so and it's just goes to show you. We have this conversation with marsha gessen very early in this whole mess and she's from russia and she talked about how another country's her own country. Russia china these countries with these two taliban communist governments. You go against leadership. You're gonna wind wind up in the gulag you're gonna wind up dead look at that guy navali who's imprison for going. It's putin we. We're not very courageous. The united states america guests in our political class. Because they're not going to jail are going to be tortured. They may lose their their seat. And that's what the care about. Our number's eight seven seven. Three zero one eighty nine seven. Let's go to fall river in joe's in the phone hijo. Yeah high calling. In regards to the fact that i think a lot of people are discussing Who's enablers are like. The stephen miller is in the The jared kushner's the world and helping them with this plot to kinda like i dunno. Fight his way into maintaining the presidency. And i think that when they start to consider the fact that he didn't act alone in this particular venture he was supported by enablers that caused this whole fiasco to occur that the broader the the broader scope of this is that a lot of people are responsible for that Insurrection not just trump himself. And i think that after all is said and done a lot of these other people have to be held to account. Well by the way you're singing marjorie song when it comes. The one person in particular marjorie least favorite person in the administration was up. Be fair to hillary's bad. But i think joe i would also include new. Probably due to senator cruz. Senator holly people in the house. Who's who's supported his his craziness and not spoken out against it. I mean it's a whole party that or like a big chunk of the gop. That's kind of lost. Its way. I think i agree with the cruises in the hallways of the world. But i'm talking about his inner circle people at he had a relations with every day that a driving him in that direction and again. This was very methodical. Planned out right from the beginning once. He knew he lost the election that he was gonna try and do anything. He could to maintain power. No by the way it was bought it out. Before he lost the election he was he was grooming the american public for him to lose and saying it was stolen before. Eat people it even started voting by mail so he was a long-term plot be killed. Thanks for the call. Twenty two thousand sixteen. Accept the result. If i win hillary clinton so this has been going on for one of them. Maybe don jr. should be in that group. Joe joe's gone now. But i think we can put don jr. that granola. I think one of the interesting questions will be i. I don't know the law the federal law well and if i do know the federal oh well off. I've read it to suggest that at least to me that donald trump has committed federal crimes through in terms of his incitement. Willie be prosecuted. I dunno question getting back to joe. Have some enablers to use joe's word. Have they violated. Federal law in terms of leonidas. I just don't know enough. I do think. I know enough to know that Donald trump is not only committed impeachable offenses. But i think he's committed a criminal offence to the other takeaway from his pathetic lawyers yesterday. At least what. I took away from it. I didn't watch whole thing. But i watch a lot of it on tape last night. They seem to be arguing to me. Don't convict them let them be criminally charged. I'm not being facetious. By the way that is. Take the take away. I had not the proper venue to prosecute him in. Let him be prosecuted in a federal courthouse somewhere for or how about that georgia prosecutor and fulton county is trying to prosecute now for the call where he asked the the voting guy rosberg or whatever. His name is to To find all those missing votes as eleven thousand missing values by the way. Get this off my off my chest because this drives me crazy when you saw yesterday. Grandpa had coronavirus when he was running around. You know infecting people in the capital before that now. He's sitting there yesterday with doodling or during this thirteen minute presentation By the democrats and not wearing a mask. I don't understand why they just don't throw them out. I mean it's kind of like if you go into a federal building regular person you go into a courtroom you go through a metal detector you could gone through your purses you could people hall new aside and with the wands if if there's some reason to think If if they had to wear a mask in court house you'd have to wear a mask. Why is rand. Paul above the law. Why is he allowed to sit there without remembered. Elizabeth warren said the other day. What do you want me to go over there and wrestle them down. Yeah well about this kind of it. I mean i love the fact that they're taking the money out of their paycheck if they don't go through the metal detector i mean because i knew of if there was a telephone. That's nancy pelosi in the house. I knew that if the If they paid fund that just wouldn't pay the fine so there seems to be this we don't have to follow the law. Attitude among certain of the republicans. We all know. They did the same thing. The people day the insurrection even older people that were cancer survivors. Anyway allen from salem new hampshire. Thank you for calling welcome. thank you My husband and i love your show so much that when we're driving to go somewhere we have to sit and wait until the end before we get. Thank you do that for my favorite shows long before i ever thought i'd be on the radio so i know what you're talking about goodness us late sometimes but anyway Years ago i used to work for a couple of different law firms and we had to expression is that we used to use back then was except for then which means used to mean except for the fact that he did this then that would not have happened except for the fact that donald trump suit up there and incited those people then the riott would not have happened and the other one used to be g new or he should have known what he was doing and those are the two things that come to mind all the time he knew or he should have known well by the way the ladder title. The latter is relevant elanie in this situation. The latter is relevant if trump's lawyers credible case that he he he didn't know with certainty that his comments going to lead to this violent insurrection which i think he did and wanted it to happen. He at minimum a relatively sane leader particularly in the united states should have known elanie. Thanks for pausing in your driveway or wherever you and your husband doing thank you for the call you know what the other day i don't know jamie raskin came up with this and i know we talked about yesterday. You know expression. I loved and i'm gonna take my from this january exception. I love no january. The whole notion being that if you do something that violates the constitution if you committed impeachable offense in january you get pass by us for the first time was tribe. You mentioned that. I don't know it was absolutely great. Avenues emailing she wants to know if trump is going to pay his lawyers. That's a very good question because he is not paid you know people in the abilene by the way a number of satellite on. I'm not sure i apologize. A number of very serious people have said one of the reasons why he's had so much trouble. Hiring lawyers is not just because he wanted the defense. The big lie defense which is theoretically while the first five lawyers quit but because it's one thing to take abuse from your client and be humiliated in front of the public. Doing something that's preposterous. But thirdly to not get paid for it which is unlikely outcome. Based upon trump's history is one of the reasons is such one of the reasons he ended up to like this. Did you see jewish conway on tv last night. Okay the husband of california common idea. What's going on american idol. Now she's tweeting out her mother screaming at her and stuff. Anyway george conway said that. That trump had problems getting great laura's for long time he said that was why he ends up. Jim data solo practitioner in his first impeachment. I don't know enough about jim. Docherty was basically saying that. This is that it's not surprising that he had a lesser team. Then the democrats had what the ken starr. I'm not a fan of is is not nobody a his chief lawyer. I can't think of the guy's name was secolo. Jay is not a third team now. Ken starr. I don't know why i look at ken starr. You don't the details of bill. Clinton's impeachment as people are into that margarita weight. Well what's his name. Cavanaugh was walling them to remember that they want to have every every breath. Bill clinton took. We're going to find out about during the monica lewinsky. He's associate justice. Cavanaugh to you just never have to come before him. Allan hi hi. how are you good. I just wanted to say this. I i've been for a long time This is a stark contrast and how we relate to things and how differently react in this country you think about you know. A hurricane in the gulf the entire nation comes together. You talk about you. Know shooting in florida shooting in colorado and the whole country comes together and then you look at when it happened to a state that goes democratic. You look at hurricane. Sandy and christie getting excoriated because he hugged a bro hug obam but crucified sandy hook. They say is a hoc which is beyond disgusting happens in a blue state. The fires in california are apparently the result of a laser being another blue state and it just seems really really difficult throughout my head. Around the disappointment that women felt when trump was elected and had a peaceful march women's march millions a million women their act or so. And then you look at how republican react armed to the teeth. Threatening to physically hurt people and then physically murdering people and as the other side is the opposing side the democratic side. What are we supposed to do. We literally have to bend to their will with a gun to our head and nobody will step up on their side and it is beyond discussing. It is rotten for this country. And i think that it's going to be a breaking point. The democrat who are going to say you know what. Maybe i should go out and get a gun. Well just really gotten frightening. Needless to say. I hope. And i'm sure you hope that that doesn't come to that. But thanks for your analysis. Ellen appreciate you know when i re i mean. I think it's clear that this didn't the marjorie taylor. Green wing of the republican party has completely lost. Its moral compass. But i was reading this morning. One hundred forty thousand members of the gop have quit. The gop post post january six. This was in twenty five states. A bunch of states don't have doubts ninety states. Don't even keep down on that kind of thing but that's not insignificant that that that those four million votes but i'm saying january six there were there were tens of thousands of republicans. Who were so disgusted that they became independent so they just left the party. I don't know what they did. We're gonna be talking to one of them. Jennifer a horn on thursday Or tomorrow is that we're talking to us. Closer. let's go. yeah before you a revel in the hundred and forty thousand speaking of one hundred forty one hundred and forty. Some members of congress voted to throw out the election results. After the insurrection at the those people who represent just lost there obviously the more i mean many people have settled are not the first is the moral collapse the republican party in in in that certain and how many people are gonna get up to six people that may actually And we don't even know we don't even know full six of them who voted That the trial should go. Forward are going to vote for conviction. Let's go to foulness jill. Welcome hi hi. How are you guys kala. Thank you good to hear from you guys. All the time they listen to you every day going madria you were talking earlier about how trump say. I think we need to re rename that to what it really isn't. It's the trump called in spite of sixty plus lost court cases and various republican State officials certifying that. It was legitimate. They they don't believe they're lying is they. Don't believe lying areas. You know so then swallowed the kool aid and i don't know if there's anything is going to bring them back but i've moved on. I've got people out of my life because of that And with my retailer green crowd. I don't think they've lost moral. I don't think they ever had one They're they're reprehensible I was thinking about the only reasonable defense. That trump has is if they can somehow figure out how his malignant narcissism is a way to claim. diminished mental capacity. Well last at the end of that. I think there's no question and this is not a defense. I think as i've said ten thousand times on this show Forget the american psychological association and their prohibiting their members from commenting on the mental condition of the former president but the watch watches thirteen minutes video and come away thinking. There's not serious mental illness in this man. That should've disqualified him seriously. Jill thank you for your Call we We appreciate you know. I you the rage that i felt watching this and i urge for the fifth time today. If you haven't watched all thirteen minutes if you only saw excerpts last night or this morning you've done yourself a disservice. Watch all thirteen minutes seconds. It is not only. is it horrifying. What happens at the capital and what was done to these men and women who are trying to defend the same flag that they were being speared with by these sick demented sadistic Monsters for the most part but the the language and behavior of the former president of the united states is despicable and depressing as anything. I've ever seen just horrifying we also get the sense of why people were actually afraid for their lives hiding under desks because you could hear the rage and the anger screaming the pound or yeah i mean q. Magin or your spouse or your child or whoever was one of the young as was in one of those offices hiding under their desks while people were shouting jamie raskin said the day after he buried his son. His two kids are under the table in his office. Texting their farewells. To their friends. Family one hour. And we're gonna talk to you ana presley to look what she went through and her husband and her kid i mean it is just the notion that they will allow this man to escape accountability for what he calls the happen on. That day is just is. It's it's a stain on this country for in my opinion forevermore by the way here's the deal for the day we argue presley and minute after we speak to congresswoman presley. We will take more of your calls on yesterday's. They won the beginning of day to well. Then tortured kaplan medical ethicists and all the latest on kobe. To bring you and us up to speed. Then we'll take more of your calls yet again on impeachment. I have the right there. I think i don't think so. Are we taking a break now. What we're going to take a break. And then we'll be joined by congressman presley. Okay we are. As jim said taking a break. And we're going to be joined up next by congressman and press. We're going to talk to her about the Vaccines about january. Six about the impeachment trial and a lot more stay tuned for anna presi up next on eighty nine seventy b. h. boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public radio. I'm jim braude. She's marguerite in a minute or two congressmen presley will join us. But first here's a little bit of what jamie raskin. He's a congressman from maryland Lead impeachment managers. You well know. Here's what he had to say in part during his opening statement today the second day of donald trump's impeachment trial. The evidence will show you that ex. President trump was no innocent bystander. It will show that. Donald trump's surrendered his role as commander in chief and became the insider in chief of a dangerous instruction and this was one of our colleagues put it so cogently on january sixth itself the greatest betrayal of the presidential oath in the history of the united states you know was the guy who's pretty hyperbolic myself i know. Hyperbole marguerite that is not hyperbole. The greatest portrayal of the presidential oath in the history of the united states to encourage people to go march on the united states capitol to incite them to stop the steel and everything else he said. It is the greatest betrayal of the presidential oath in the history of the united states. Jamie raskin nailed it and again. We will have sixteen hours of presentation from raskin and his colleagues from the house managers. I guess up to sixteen hours. I don't know how they're gonna do sixteen hours in defense of Donald trump and then they'll be debate. There may be some questions. I think they have to vote on whether or not the senators can ask questions. I assume they will of the lawyers from both sides and then at some point probably next week swimming. They don't call witnesses early next week. They'll probably be a vote. Do you want to some causeway for congressman presi allen franklin. Thanks for calling. Hi i love your show and listen to. Whenever i'm home from work i have the first thing i'm setting starting with his january six is instill is my birthday. I was home. I was home that day because we were having worked on in the house. And the workmen boy. Do you really send up such a good party. I mean i you know it was just horrific watching every minute of this because i was in and out by the tv looking at what was happening. It hub was horrific and still. Is this other side of it. Is i have two grandsons. That are our apologies. But thank you for the call. But we're joined now by congressman on oppressing last month. She had to barricade herself in her office. You know this. Using furniture bottles of water to keep more rotting trump supporters from breaking in the first day of the impeachment trial was literally a replay of events. And that was the point to illustrate the violence incited by trump which rattled the nation and left five. People dead on oppressively joins us to talk about the impeachment trial. Democrats push for an ambitious cove. Relief package vaccine redlining and more congresswoman. Good to talk to you. Thank you so much for calling in good to be with you always cochrane before we get to the cova relief and vaccine etcetera. Tell us what your reaction was to what happened yesterday while i was very struck by the words of the united states senate chaplain reverend berry black. When he spoke the words of the powerful words and i believe with intention of new england. Poet and abolitionist James russell low. Who said wants to every man and nation comes the moment to decide in the strife of truth with falsehood for the good or evil side. And you know. I think that really just personally. Half half's elated. This moment there are no two sides you know. This is your either a patriot or a traitor. These people saw to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. It was a violent white supremacist mob. And your silence is complicity. Your silence is violence. And so i am very proud of our impeachment managers. I am especially proud of jamie. Raskin think has demonstrated great patriotism in a moment of great tragedy and personal loss For his family. And i think that they each came to this moment and met it with the constitutional duty and solemnity that this moment requires again. Donald j trump. You know help be the forever twice. Impeach president by the democratic majority let house and the senate must do their job and honor their oath. This is as much about accountability as it is prevention jim and march we have to ensure that donald j trump kit is barred from running for public office again. He incited and insurrection. Into jamie raskin's brilliant point if we don't move this way are we extensively saying that someone can operate however they want Toward the end of a presidential administration without consequence retribution so this is as much about accountability as it is prevention. His great line the january exception. Yes just pretty great. We're talking to oppress the so at the same time. The senate is proceeding with this trial. The house is proceeding with the covert relief. Bill a rich and congressman. Neal's with us last week made pretty clear that they were going to go in the direction that you've been advocating big And it turns out what is going to come out of. The house will not represent compromise on any of the critical issues with the republicans. But they are embracing. You are embracing the go. Big strategy is accurate. Is it not congresswoman marguerite serve on the financial services committee. Actually in in hearing right now in a mark up about the code response Package the rescue package And stepped out to to do this. Call to say is we are. We need to learn the lessons of two thousand eight. I know there are many who think that everyone fully recovered. But i know many families who never recovered from two thousand and eight and so that should be the lesson for us. This is not the time to play small. We need to go big. The bills have not stopped coming. I spoke with the mother. Angela and mattapan in my district. Who's been laid off. Her child is a you know in remote learning and she just talked about how their utility electric bill have doubled. their heating. Bill has because everyone is home. And so i offer that as one example the rent just because we didn't cancel winning mortgages and so people are going to oldies balloon pay payments and you know this has been pushing for when and mortgage cancellations for eviction of foreclosure moratorium for the cancelling student debt. But but above all else for two thousand dollar reoccurring Survival checks and that's what they are. They're not stimulus checks. This isn't about stimulating. The economy this is about people safe house in the midst of a pandemic variance emerging every day a surge about people being able to keep their family fed to pay for life saving medication and to keep the lights on the heater because is the federal response has not met the scale and scope of this crisis so learning lessons from two thousand and eight centering. The needs of muslim situates in the massachusetts seven to mitigate the hurt that american families are experiencing. We have to go big. And so i am so encouraged in this moment because it proves that we get. Would we organize for. And i'm proud to be a member of the congressional progressive caucus and we put hard and and we told the line able to use people. In good faith efforts were seeking to lower the income eligibility. We push to keep that high. I know in boston. Sixty thousand dollars means something very different than it doesn't huntsville alabama. You know given the cost of living there. And so because of progresses we were able to Total lie on income eligibility for these survival checks and we were also able to secure a federal minimum wage increase which we haven't seen an increase for over a decade and again the massachusetts seventh. A minimum wage worker needs to work at least eighty four hours a week to afford a decent one bedroom and so the fact that helps progressives were able to secure fifteen dollar minimum wage increase in our pandemic. Reconciliation is critical. And it's been a leading priority of mine and of our caucus we organize for it and we got it as i hear you say that i that is all accurate but my telling the battle there was whether democratic leadership would would decide to compromise with republican leadership in the house. But another issue that you spoke to senator warren the air pushing big time this cancelation a student loans. What seems the stand between progressives like you and your colleagues and the outcome you're looking for is not the republicans but the president of the united states. You're looking for fifty thousand bucks. He apparently is willing offer. Ten thousand you and senator warren who've been champions of this believe that the president should do it by executive action. The president wants congressional approval which it minimum means a significant delay. What do you do with the president of your own party. Who i guess you would say. I think you would say is on the wrong side of the issue. Well i let me just say that you know. I've been an ongoing communication with the by administration about everything from cabinet sub appointees to policy priorities. Are those conversations continue. And i'm encouraged that you know. In the biden harris administration that we finally do have compassionate thoughtful partners. Part of partnership is accountability. You know i'm going gonna keep pushing. I'm gonna keep organizing Because president biden on the campaign trail did speak to a commitment to canceling a student debt in the diverse coalition of voters who may democratic victory possible many of the issue based activists who want a green new deal. Who wants a canceling a student. That and who need for this burden to be alleviated. This is nearly two trillion dollar crisis in massachusetts alone. We have eight hundred fifty. Five thousand federal borrowers each saddled with a minimum of thirty thousand dollars worth of debt. This is an economic justice issue. It is a racial justice issue because most black students are like myself. Eighty five percent of us have no choice. But to take out loans. Because of practices like redlining which barred our abilities our family's ability to build generational wealth and myself like most black student borrowers. We're five how likely to default then our white counterparts but moreover jim marjorie this is not just a millennial or juicy issue You know at forty and forty seven. Now i could say th birthday list. Thank you moving closer to the side but you know. The kids still think claim to lutely but but canceling student that is not just millennial or gen z issue. As i mentioned to you all previously. I have people that are seventy plus in my district who said. Please cancel this debt. Seventy six years old and don't forget under the previous administration. They were garnishing. People's wages benefits to the tune of fifty four thousand people until we intervened for failure to pay their role in the midst of a pandemic. We have got this. I spoke with cynthia in my district yesterday. And she says you know. I just pay the loans and whatever happened to my credit scores. Whatever happens to my credit score so in order for us to have a just an equitable a robust economic recovery from the pandemic. We need to cancel student. That this is a valve president biden. Making good on promises he made on the campaign trail. This is about us going bold and this is a gimme acknowledgement that this is not just millennial or gen z issue This is a burden In choking many seniors whose benefits are being held hostage because of their failure to pay so we should go and this administration should be responsive to the needs of the movement which delivered their victory which talking to congresswoman presley another matter that the front page of globe says vaccines in massachusetts may be turning a corner but i know back on january twenty six couple of weeks ago now You wrote a letter to governor baker arguing about the unfairness of vaccine availability. Tell people what you said and if you do think it's it's changed. Well i let the record. Reflect that within weeks of the pandemic began being drunk on the issue of equity does that has been rallying cry and my advocacy in the very beginning both to fight for equitable public health response to the pandemic which is washington it a warning and i introduced the equitable data collection. That because the only data that was being collected at that age gender race and once we began to collect that data and billy were clear on how a disparate and an adverse the impasse of the virus had been in communities that historically had unequal access to healthcare and have the co morbidity of structural racism and environmental injustices can't hire asthma rates and consequently higher infection hospitalization and desperate and so Early on i was banging the drum on the issue of equity in our public health response. And i've been doing that throughout this when it comes to the vaccine a role now in In the early phases of this what we saw playing out in massachusetts which is a healthcare mecca that has the pre existing infrastructure to hit the ground running. I mean i. I have fifteen community health centers in massachusetts seventh. One in three of my constituents received their care from a community health center shoutout to michael curry president mass legal community health centers new. Co during a store near job but you know we should have been able to hit the ground running and and we were lagging behind and so many of those disparities Were playing out in the vaccine. Rollout which was unacceptable massachusetts should be a national model because we are a healthcare mecca and this vaccine being equitably access is just as much about slowing the spread of this virus as it is about saving lives. And so that is why senator warren markey myself sent a letter to the department of health and human services and the biden harris administration. Arguing them to now. Select anonymous gimmick graphic and racial data vaccine recipients again because we know that that which gets measured gets done so in the same way that we push for that data collection in our public health response early in the pandemic. We now need to do that when it comes to vaccines and this also. Why sent a letter to governor baker you know urging him to to use our existing infrastructure in our community health centers knowing the role that they play and to invest in education and outreach because that it's culturally competent and that engages trust community voices because we know because of a history of medical apartheid of the tuskegee experiment being one example that communities of color disproportionately do have fear and skepticism because of the ways in which the medical community has violated their trust governor baker get back to a congresswoman yes. He did respond to my letter in. Well i'm encouraged by the commitment that he expressed in that to use our network of community health center to deploy vaccines are artists hit communities. That's a critical course corruption To make better priority also had urged him to engage trusted voices and community leaders in public awareness campaign. And so i'm encouraged by that you'll congresswoman still concerned you know we we still see these racial disparities emerging and so. I'm just gonna continue to sell the alarm. Lucy that a vaccine access is equitable. The thing is you guys cannot be a buzzword you know we have to be intentional and every step and that's from design to implementation in order to ensure their most vulnerable received the information and have the resources necessary to actually turn out i carson presley. Maybe i'm a little overly obsessed with the mask wearing or lack of mask wearing We we watched the first day of the peach. Yesterday we saw rand. Paul paul senator not wearing a master in the entire time. I know that when many of your colleagues were taken to safety in those secure rooms there was the little scuffle because There were quite a few republicans they refuse to put on masks. You don't know where they were offered mass were. I'm wondering is what is the deal. If if you're supposed to wear a mask on the on the senate floor on the house floor why anybody enforce it well as i speak about bullying spread of this disease and it was most vulnerable. I did want to make one more point before. Getting to your question. Margining as you to say someone was as an asthma. Suffer myself Regarding the state's responded. I was very disappointed to learn that as old as left off the list of eligible medical conditions the vaccine in the state space to rollout. You know that's really devastating for black and brown communities in massachusetts including in by district You know from roxbury to chelsea and east boston chinatown who have disproportionately higher rates of asthma. So i'm also calling on governor baker to ensure that those with asthma are eligible for vaccines and phase to being congresswoman. To be clear you mean under the to komor varies thing. It's not listed. Is that what your point is director. Okay okay okay. I would you know who should be prioritized in vaccination access. Okay cheer cheer play marjorie around the anti massacres. That are all around us. Let me just say my heart is so heavy It is an honor to be here at at so many storage inflection point for this nation and the first time that i had to go to cast my vote I had to go through a metal detectors. i mean this is just. It's sad but it is infuriating. Infuriating that it is necessary that he have colleagues and so these empty calls for unity are exactly that because i can't unify with people Stand to threaten the public health of myself and my colleagues Who pose an imminent threat to me based on hateful rhetoric that they have offered in so i do see a house staff. Working very hard to enforce the mask mandate in the same way that we seek to. And they seek to enforce members entering. The house came over through a metal detector but we still have members who will walk around. That is that we've had to legislate. Can you imagine this. Say we've had to pass a resolution to say you cannot be on. The house was a firearm. we have had to To lay down the law. And say that you will be fine thousands of dollars if you don't wear a mask so you think they're going to force us to the masses. Well as the metal detector fines paychecks case the metal detectors. i know. you're asking me what i think. No one if. I know that they're taking the five grand the paychecks of people who won't go through the metal detector I'm wondering if they if they're going to be fining through the paycheck people who refuse to wear masks that i don't know either but i do know there is a mask mandate and I know that How staff look very hard to that to enforce it and democratic leadership. But you saw that. My colleague representative corey. Bush relocated her office on And that was one of the reasons other than her Being complicit in perpetuating this big lie is that she feared for her staff and herself and in the interest of public health because she was going to wear a masks when i. You've got to get back to here and just one last thing. We spoke to you right after january. Six and you acknowledge that the experience was terrifying. I have never lived through anything like this yet. I still have memories of things for less. Terrifying and threatening. How are you a month after this insurrection. And i was all because you know again. The thing that breaks my heart is that it took injury in loss of life in an attempted coup when insurrection but people to appreciate the threat that white supremacy is to every american life at our democracy and don't want people to think that if we expel members of which we need to do aided and abetted this if we impeach donald trump which we need to do that our work is done because systemic and structural racism white supremacy is the host of that it is the foundation of that and so we're going to keep using the word alive unity for using words like reckoning that is something epic and biblical proportions so let our our commitment to rooting out the skirt that is white supremacy and are dismantling laws that perpetuating systemic structural racism. May we'd be just as bold in that congressman. Thanks for your time torture. Ready to talk to you thank you thank you congresswoman. Ileana presi represents the state's seventh congressional district and again we appreciate very much your time coming up. I wouldn't find a month after by the way. I'll tell you know i admire gone back in that building going back in that building with the kinds of people you described before i i wouldn't be fine but she's made for being able to be made. The point is an african american woman that she's had to live with this kind of gear for much of her life and And which is horrible itself anyway. We're going to open the lines again. And take your calls on the impeachment Exercise trial whatever. You wanna call. It's going on. Capitol hill listened to eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. The boston public radio. Jim brady and marjorie again. We are less than an hour into What may be as much as sixteen hours of presentation by the impeachment managers from the house the prosecutors so to speak Will continue to bring up to speed on what happens there. And if you're just doing. We're talking to congressman. I on presley about this impeachment trial and what happened on january. Sixth when i'll take your calls asking you by the end of the week. When the day of violence and trump's role in that violences retold and replayed before the national audience and the senate do you believe more republicans could be moved to vote to convict trump if you were ambivalent by the way about convicting the former president. How are you feeling after seeing that tape if you did and listening to one day and i guess an hour of arguments from the prosecutors in this case eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy by the way we should have said. I think people know this. It's only one but won a united states. Senator republican cassidy from louisiana voted. One way voted yesterday to allow reverse themselves and voted to allow the trial to proceed saying that was constitutional of impeach to convict. Pardon me a former president so maybe sixteen hours of this and a defense that has no defense may move others. We shall see eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seven. Our number simi me. I was just saying that they looked at the thirteen minute video and in its totality. And we're we're stunned by it. You know it's It's interesting how you find these young stars coming out in these moments. Everyone's amanda gorman. At the inauguration that the super bowl the power of course then. There's this Congressman joe goose from colorado. Yeah isn't the gucci. I think it is kind of a rising star. We played a little sound from him. He was the he was the colorado congressman as. I said it was arguing that the impeachment trial of former. President trump is indeed constitutional. What our country experienced. That day is the framers. Worst nightmare come to life. Presidents can't inflame insurrection in their final weeks and then walkaway like nothing happened and yet that is the rule. That president trump asks you to adopt. I urge you to decline his request to vindicate the constitution to let us try this case of Speaking of insurrection it reminded me of a little sound that. Our colleague shared with fisher. Play this too before we get to the goals. This is representative Raskin lead impeachment manager in his opening statement today. and who does he quote. Well surprising source. You'll hear right now. Justice scalia once said memorably. You can't ride with the cops and root for the robbers. Become insider in chief to the insurrection. You can expect to be on the payroll as commander-in-chief for the union. Eight seven seven zero is a good one. Scalise is a good one. Two eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy allen. I'm sorry what. Go ahead allen charleston. Thank you for calling in welcome. Hi thank you for taking my a couple of a couple of points extra point so i guess you have a guest on your tv show. Sometimes heather cox richardson. Let it from america's that what is called that she writes all it's great very big. She was on amount of poor and very interesting discussion. She was having regarding two points for the impeachment One was when we look at the impeachment vote. I know you guys said well looks like you know. The republicans are all gonna vote. You know the way. They're gonna vote what happened yesterday. Did they said they. They compelling arguments made by democrats but changing our vote. So that's fine But what she was saying is there's a lot of people who may not want trump in there but they don't wanna come out and vote that way remember we talk about maybe secret ballot or whatever. She didn't another way that people aren't thinking about because a of the republicans if they vote for trump they're voting against themselves for twenty twenty four and so basically what could they do and she's saying one way to do it is you have to. It's a percentage of the People present who vote so on the day of the tr- voting on the trial. If you don't show up it's a no it's an it's an neutral out. Basically deuces the threshold the reducing the number of republicans. You need. yeah that was. The point was made by larry tribe or somebody here yesterday or the day before. Yeah can i just blow that away. I have a huge fan of heather's by the way it ain't happening and the reason it's not happening is if those republicans are scared of their constituents. They have no reason to be any less scared if they take a walk because if they take a walk they're going to be seen as people who allow conviction to happen so again. While i respect her work hugely they're voting and i hope they change your vote but as of if they can't even see how you can you can have a trial for a former president. I'm not convinced that they're open minded enough to vote for conviction. What's your second l. saying that there could be Potentially rico act against the conspirators again. That's been that there's no Attorney dental for biden at this point night. It's not been confirmed but talk. Is that the justice department could be moving towards rico charges that would bring the scope into these people who were on the side of look to be on the side. I'm like calling for example much going to the limelight. Because there could be conspiracy Under rico with federal government. Going after you you don't wanna be on the other side of the federal government when you're going after on a on a racketeering charge They have a lot of power and there's a lot of things they can do. That would be an interesting turn as well that i wasn't thinking about that but they're saying that could be a possibility and quickly your third quickly. Third point is for different. Margie the You should if you wanna smile. You watch the jerusalem a- Dancing i could earth lamma. It's very simple great. Dance challenge is going out there including one by the swiss police. it's hilarious it very uplifting. Talking about the jerome. Google google jerusalem like jerusalem a dance challenge in the swiss police in their riot. Gear is dancing. It's hilarious often. Airlines to police are challenging each other to do it so the irish are doing it. There's alaria your show. We're on allentown for the call. By the way it was. I made a mistake former senator. One of our colleagues corrected me was former senator jeff flake who was with us yesterday. Who said if there was a secret ballot. There might be a very different outcome. Obviously there shouldn't be but there might be a different outcome because then they might have the courage to vote their conscience by the way i played heather cox purchase in one of the things. I love about her letters from americans or whatever it is Is it calms you down. If she's very calm storage with everything and some she lives in maine to. I think if you're com. You're looking at the ocean. You know it helps you up there. Look at those waves. John mcafee cambridge by the way she does teach. Pc that's right back numbers. Thank you for calling very hi. How are you good So i just was thinking back to twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen when the liberal people who are going out and you know making their opinions about trump recalled snowflakes and then you watched the video yesterday and you know. These people are yelling. Because they're not getting their way and this mean it happened to us like me. We didn't win even though we had the majority and it was it was just shambles So i think that's kinda funny but also the other day you guys were talking about. How people are kind of blinded with the cunanan items and me personally. My grandmother is tala gist and she has been into on has ties. Yeah To our family and has invited herself from my sister's wedding coming out of here Yeah 'cause she chooses to to think that these things are real instead of you know reality and and listening to her family loves her and cares for her and wants to to understand that you know you have to take the blinders off and actually see what's going on and take in. You know the news from all sources especially. I think that's the primary school and you know high school or whatnot. It's like us. What four sources yup search. And then you don't have enough. That's when you say okay. Maybe this isn't right becca. I hate those stories. I every time. I hear that you know it's so sad. You're about losing someone. You love for his sickness becca. Thank you for your call. And i hope she does come to their senses and all that mean. She's not gonna sister's wedding. Yeah well i think. I think it's a tragedy. I mean there was someone who wrote a piece somewhere about. It's like it's getting people out of the moonies remember. The moonies used get recruited. Good looking girls. Young women. I should say would find find college students on lonely costumes the campus and invite them over for dinner and suddenly. They're becoming moonies i. It's almost like extracting people from cult like that. it's not that easy by the moonies. If i remember correctly it was a long time. I don't think the moonies were perpetrating. Great acts of violence and murder in some cases. Where i think generally speaking. You didn't want your kid to become a moonie gem. You know what i mean. It was kind of. Yeah cults though i would argue compensated the cult on january. Sixth was a little bit scarier than than that. You want to mention very quickly That what right wing media has done in our colleagues keeping track of this That you know talk across and big gun evening fox basically just said you know oh cares about. The impeachment. doesn't matter. Laura ingram was mostly going after the bad lawyering. So sean hannity but this morning. I tuned in fox and friends really quickly They were talking about not the impeachment. Not any talk about border crossings. More border crossings under president trump. Which i'm not even sure is true. And some under president brian. Yes thank you and some. Da that was holding an outdoor wedding in violation of the covert lockdown. Much more than the second impeachment of a president or former president of the united states. So we're gonna talk to our kaplan. Yes we are he's coming up next vaccines and other things. Medical covid spread. Of course after that will get back to your phone calls medical ethicist kaplan's next on eighty nine seven. Gp boston public radio the boston public radio margery eagan. Jim brady until recently. Most major news outlets published acros virus tracker see could see how many infections hospitalizations and deaths were happening in your state now. Many also offer a corona virus variant tracker while donald trump's operation warp speed was racing to get out of covid vaccine. Who knew that. The competition was the virus itself. Mutating impossibly outsmarting vaccines along the way. How worried should we be about the highly infectious variants in the vaccines effectiveness against them. Particularly estates relaxed kobe restrictions. Join us along with this and other cove related. Headlines are kaplan artisan. Doctors william f. and virginia connolly midi professor and founding head of the division of medical ethics at nyu school of medicine. That would be a new york city who other art caplan lillo. Hello capping great to see you so stat for the boston. Globe is still for the boston globe with He's got this great piece this morning talking about the calm before the variant driven storm in other words things are looking a little bit better now. declines in hospitals declines in cases as well but that people ain't one variant be point one three five one variant and the most worst of all i guess be one point one seven means is could be could be big trouble for us the latter one which i guess is the worst one one from great britain is spreading around the country. So the mute. Mutations are something to worry about. I'm gonna say moderately Mutations are what viruses. They've evolved that strategy to beat our natural antibodies. It's how they stay alive and keep running. Look if the mutation excuse me for virus killed all its hosts it would die to so from an evolution point done like that so it wants to keep changing just enough to make everybody sick just enough to keep everybody infected. That's how it flourishes so That's what's going on here. Not totally unexpected. But i think people are seeing -tations at a faster rate than you see for other viruses say like even the flu which changes to anyway. Good talent to double down on the Behavioral things that are giving us some reduction in rates meaning. Don't open those restaurants quite yet keep masking. Keep trying to keep your six foot distance. Keep trying to quarantine stay at home when you can. That's working we can see the rates dropping down a bit. Plus we're get some vaccination out there so the best weapon against the mutations are don't get the virus and i'm worried that we're reopening due economic pressure too fast too fast. I want to talk about the storm for one more minute. Then when i go back to the calm before it in this story the you are a calming influence on this but just a couple of days ago. I did a collision show in part on the south african variant. And i read that day. That people who had been infected had virtually no immunity when it came to the south african variant. That astra zeneca vaccine which has not been approved here yet. Had no ev- virtually i think ten percent efficacy. That was the bad news. Then the next day i read in a sheesh tweet who said if you've had the infection before moderna and pfizer working great but it seems at least the south african one is a cause for some concern even though it's spread the united states is far behind that which is coming from the uk is that is that an accurate statement or no. Yeah it is. Although i expect sadly variant will get here. It's just we can slow it down and one thing that happened. Was i like the idea of starting to test All flights coming in and out of here and domestically should have been doing that. Maybe six months ago but okay That helps slow things. Down the reason that's important let's more people get vaccinated There's a lot of both up in the air but let me say it's way i favor the to shot vaccine and not just giving everybody one shot you're gonna get more immunity broad immunity more powerful immunity and i think that will help against all these variants including the south african when really get your immune system going but just defense. Don't get infected. That bill is the number one rule. So gotta keep our guard up pronounce. Quick aside did you bring idea how we get these names be one three five one one one seven p one come from. They're just markers on the genetic map of the virus so they're just It's like a little google map of the viral genome. So they're just say. Oh there's a change at that point there's a change at that point there's a change of point by the way an interesting fight broke out but whether we should keep using geography names wuhan virus China virus south african virus brazilian virus. Uk virus. Who doesn't like it thinks it stigmatizes the countries. I don't know i'm not a hundred percent. Sure it was certainly true that donald trump was trying to stigmatize china and using geography in a racist way. But i don't know people aren't like to keep using be point one one to one here for very long. I think what jim did it. Start talking about south africa. You know before we get to talk about the com- briefly in the 'cause i want to state clearly my position because you and i had a little debate about the one versus two does thing. I am totally with you on the two dose regimen. As soon as i got my first dose. Until i got my first those in support of a one dose for body right. I want to make clear principled. Stand the com- briefly. If you can people. I think when they see the declining numbers the united states say well. The vaccines are working. It's clearly not the vaccine. It's not nearly enough vaccination to cause this kind of decline. So why are numbers improving pretty dramatically. I mean there's still a horrible number of deaths. i'm not minimizing. Obviously but it's far fewer deaths far fewer infections. Hospitalizations y yeah. Connecticut had at three point eight percent infection rate today. Now that was down from maybe in december eight percent so the fall Couple of things one more people are masking. I think biden and the administration or role modeling masking. I think more people are doing it. I'm not going to say that. It didn't see a few unmasked people running around tampa during the super bowl but looting. Tom brady thing it. I more doing it and then including tom brady. And then I think people are taking the stay at home Seriously trying to. I think they're trying to comply more people and more widely plus some other weird things going on. You know the more people that naturally get infected the more baseline immunity is out there too. And they've probably elitism. Upset new yorkers in new york city already been infected. didn't die But you know they did catch it and so there may be antibodies so going to drive us to hurt immunity. It's not going to solve the problem. But i think they're more people have been exposed. Art kaplan assist. Aren't you get a great quote in the story about whether grandparents who've been vaccinated can finally go visit their their grandkids. Been all these really heartbreaking stories about you know elderly grandparents with newborns it there have been able to see it cetera. And you point out in your great quote that A lot of these grandparents are quite elderly and they're not sure they're going to make it for another year to just see the kids. So what's the answer. If if grandma and grandpa got the vaccine are they good to go. So i'm gonna say you got to do another one of these risk benefit decisions if your grandparents or let's make up a number fumes age eighty nine and to actually. I don't know this is getting if he maybe you know they got to see the kids. Okay i think visit could happen. They're vaccinated that's a big plus your vaccinated and other big plus but even if you're not if they did they got vaccinated would still say. Let's try to maintain masking. That's try to maintain distance. Let's keep the visit relatively short. But i get it. Why people might start to say okay. We're gonna open up that door little bit. we're towing art caplan. Yes art For those who don't know we should say you're a framingham kid. You gone on to fame and fortune in new york city where you know as far as natick. Yeah throughout the land so to read the other day that framingham decided because they have very few doses that when people signed up for sites who were not from framingham but winter framingham site. They were initially turned away their excess doses so they got vaccinated for the most part anyway. Are you okay with the forget laws. I don't even know the laws are and i don't really care for the moment. Are you okay with a particular geographic area. Saying if you're not from this geographic area duncombe getting vaccinated vaccinated well when framingham. Does it your general proposition. We must protect sudbury. We must protect you know. We have to protect all the neighborhood. Saxon ville So listen i think what areas can do is they can say we have a limited dose. We're going to Give it out to those who have geographic priority relative to where the center is because we don't want to get overwhelmed with people coming. In from fifty miles hundred miles. People flying to florida from canada to get vaccinated. So it's not that residency per se as a moral issue but it's a way to prevent yourself from getting overrun and swamped. You don't wanna have look to put it simply. I keep seeing these giant lines of people hoping that maybe they'll be surplus but they're not vaccinated right and they could infect each other. They're not social distancing there on top of each other inside some warm building so yeah i think it's one way to try and regulate you know a the danger of to wait for a vaccine i on a presley Earlier it's also way to get around an issue. We discussed with her and discuss with you. I think last week about the Disproportionately fewer number of vaccinations for people of color. There seem to be legal problems with saying at a particular site that the these are reserved for a people of color. But it's not. I would assume i said we weren't going to talk about law but it doesn't seem to be illegal problem to say residents get first priority so that may be part of the way to deal with this inequity seen. I mean the real answer is if you want to get the most at risk people put the vaccine where they live or were they work. I'm not a big fan of this. Come on down to the civic center. Or let's all meet at fenway park strategy. Because i think it's still you have to work. You can't take the time to get there. You may not have transportation to get there you none of a babysitter. Poor people don't have access to the same day care. So i'm a big fan of moving things out to the us or the walgreens drugstore or the high school. That's a lot easier with johnson and johnson because of the storage is easier to handle. We're going to see so no it wouldn't be right to say we're going to give priority to a race or ethnic group. I don't think that's right. But hitting people where they live where they can access and then basically boils down. Zip code if you wanna put it that way. Yeah i think that will work by the way in a lot of cities. Even when people put vaccine sites in poor neighborhoods. Rich people came across town and took most of what happened. The reggie lewis center in roxbury in the first couple of days there as well so kaplan we heard a lot particularly massachusetts about Vaccines sitting in their in their freezers because Overestimations of how many were needed him. Politically elder care facilities. Apparently cdc overestimated the doses needed in these facilities. This is happening all around the country but now states are redistributing those vaccines which seems like a good idea yeah. I don't know that they overestimated. You know what happened. Rates were particularly among staff right like forty percent of the staff refusing many Children said you can't vaccinate my dad or my grandfather. 'cause i'm afraid of it so they didn't even aspe- resonant so i think what happened was you have to take into account refusal rates because these vaccines are so fragile and tough to handle that. You don't want it. Just send them there and then tell the nursing home. Well either opened the doors to anybody. Who's hanging around in the street or try to move them which. I don't think they're capable of doing so. We didn't take into account in this distribution of the scarce resource when people say no or the other thing is. They just missed the appointment. Yeah but this whole redistribution thing. That marty was talking about it. Needs federal does it need. Does the cdc of to sign off on this as i. It's interesting the in this. Okay fine speaking vaccines one last vaccine thing. You co wrote this piece. You know something. That is so obvious that i hadn't thought about. I didn't mean so obviously criticism your work minute as a complement of your even though was so obvious. Explain to people what you wrote. Your co wrote about giving people extra time off to deal with the side effects. And by the way they're not deadly side effects though nevertheless from vaccines. Yeah so people are getting reactions to the second shot some. Get it to the first. Oddly younger people seem to get aches and pains and fatigue a little more than older people. It's probably they have a stronger. Immune systems and they're responding even more strongly to the vaccine so employers ought to recognize this. And make sure that you don't have to take a day or two days against your sick time against your day. Days counted his days off. Just give him a break and have a vaccine holiday definitely encourage vaccination by saying you know if you do have to stay home and nap. We're not talking about you. Know people getting Horrific problems post vaccination. It's fatigue. it's aches and pains. i it on my second shot. I got mine on a friday and stayed home on a saturday. We should build that into You know employers should just that and that's one way they can really encourage vaccination by the way. Why don't they shove it into the one point nine. Trillion dollar covert relief bill. So we don't have to leave it up to the benevolence of individual employers. So i'm sorry well just a pile on there. And why aren't we just saying to restaurants. We'll subsidize you can get through this stupid thing. Instead of opening up at twenty five percent opening up at fifty percent closing back. I mean could we come up with a Income support to get restaurants and restaurant people through I think we're going to get the extended unemployment and that fit fourteen hundred dollars the way for those thinking about. It's going to cost a ton. Well it's going to cost a ton more if we have to keep shutting down the economy. 'cause we get spreads out of restaurants or bars he end. There's healthcare costs that go there too. I'm not sure it's not a prudent thing to do. You call larry summers and tell them that. So maybe he'll shut up. We're talking art Art caplan one less thing for me. I kind of depressing story. I thought in the wall street journal about kind of we are just going to be living with kovic for years and that things are not going to be back to normal and a lot of us are going to be wearing masks and feeling uncomfortable about going to a bar dancing in a bar. Dancing it concert sensing on a bar dancing. Know all the fun activity designed marjo on a regular basis. You know swinging from the chandeliers. I mean we're not going to be being crowded together. Breathing on each other is just not going to be something we're going to do. I think it is what we're gonna do gonna see more i do. I think we're going to go back. Well look everything's depressing. The wall street journal. I like no i think things will go back maybe a year from now but you will see more people masking. I'm certain that some people are to say that's it for me. I'm not going to broadway. Show too crowded ventilation. Bad too cramped together won't do it but generally speaking. I think we'll get to point in our lives where we do what we do with the flu. We get our shots. We know there's going to be some flu around No matter what we try to do but we accept that as the price of being able to go out and do what we wanna do. So i think it's just one more pain in the neck disease that will live with by the way. It's exactly what i told marjorie an hour and a half ago. She rejected from me. She is nodding great happiness. At kaplan. i'll remember that margaret. I guess. I said i was talking about this before you see pictures. In asian countries of people in regular on the way to work on the way to the subway into the restaurant. Everybody's got not everybody but most people have mass on. So i was hoping that wasn't going to be the we are really bothers me. I have to see people's faces. You know bothersome tigres. But i think again you won't have to ask outside. You'll start to see people masking selectively. Let's put it that way marjorie saw and by the way one other little sign you know what also dropped so far this year. Fluent the masking and while we all go out. Yeah you know. We're not in crowded places and we math more last so hard to art. Marjorie is trying to end on a down note and she failed. I will end on a down. Note is in light of the fact. Even if it's just flu like going forward as you suggest it's probably going to be down down the road that obviously means we have to keep getting tested for significant amounts of time. There's a story margin. I read this morning. About the fact that united healthcare which i think is huge huge united healthcare in the private sector. And i think medicaid. If i'm i think i'm right about this. Government reimbursement rates for tests is causing some doctors to stop giving tests. Because they're losing money as medicare on every single test. How can the reimbursement rate i mean. How can the reimbursement rate for this thing. That is so central to our health on economy be lower than the actual cost skews. Goodson kurt wasn't medicare medicaid then incurred by an individual physician or physician group. I i don't get that at all because in the broken healthcare system that we have therapy saving people rescuing people it's always been well reimbursed prevention testing surveillance crummy. That was true before covid. Cova just fell under this. And it's absurd. We've got a swing one lesson from this play. Is we better start to pay for genetic testing infectious disease. Testing prevention. we're not the budget's outta whack and the healthcare system. We're spending a fortune to fix you. You know no one says you can't get paid in the icu right but in wants to be there by the way just saw your dog walk by arts. Dog is gorgeous. That is really call. It is really good looking dog. By the way yeah. She left this Broadcast though so she's intelligent. See rory rori how that. I love very irish very very irish. That's right i'm with ya. Goes you calm enough for arctic or till next week or thirty minute. You're up down up your dad. Say the same thing you know. We don't do anything like groundhog day. The same thing over and over with a couple of days go on the radio and here we are but we can wait a week from to come back and look at your lovely study. You have a beautiful study. You're leaving down. You're torturing the audience now there he's got a dog you can't see it. He's actually true Radio post some pictures study. How much thank every week. He's the doctors win. Virginia kelley miniature and founding of division of medical ethics. Nyu school of medicine in new york. City okay coming up. We continue to bring you live coverage or coverage of donald. trump's impeachment. Trial eighty nine seventy eight boston public radio and we're opening the lines for your phone calls. Boston public radio. I'm jim browder. She's martin regan and we're taking your calls in the impeachment trial. Donald trump sin with second hour today there as many as fourteen hours left for the prosecution than as many as sixteen hours for the president's defense started noon we broadcasting ongoing coverage throughout its duration. If you've been paying attention to the testimony to the house managers arguments thirteen minute video yesterday and then you listen to donald trump's legal defense team. Where are you on this. Can you see how a member of the senate would vote to acquit trump or does trump's role in violent attack on the capital strike. You is undeniable. The numbers eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy count me as in the undeniable category. Oh we just heard a little bit of eric's while while the congressman briefly ran for president Outlining the various attacks that were on Election officials homes where people. I should say tact. People were screaming outside. Stop the steel stop steele. Stop the steel. And he was going through the tweets at present set out in the money that the president spent on this notion election had been stolen running ads and so forth and and tweeting about it and this prior build up to the january six that they allude to yesterday that this was going on for weeks and weeks and weeks even before the election The idea that the election was going to be stolen from him. So they're they're making a longer case than just the january six riot. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eight hundred nine seventy. What struck you most from that. Which you've observed in. I i guess four plus hours yesterday. Maybe not that much not sure how long it was and the first couple of hours of today. I'm very curious to hear as i said earlier. I watch the thirteen minute. Video played by the democrats yesterday. That youtube go everywhere video and you find it in a second thirteen minutes and nineteen seconds. I watch it for the second time right before. He went on the air. Today it is its powerful conclusive heartbreaking by the way the thing that there's what there's a lot of in there for obvious reasons is the is the violence and verbal abuse and everything else directed at At police and other law enforcement by the protesters. And as i said earlier one of the great honor of this horror this act of sadism and homicide at the capitol. Is you know the accusation. Always made against people who didn't support donald trump is. They were anti police right. In sport the police they supported a attacks. The police this was all about a condemnation of law enforcement officers who are trying to protect people's elected representatives. Any when you see images of some of these cops gone at with like there with spears on which there is an american flag there is a sickness and depravity. And it's just it's horrific has impossibly being. I have to say if someone wants to call here after watching that and make the case. And i encourage you to if you'd like make the case. Donald trump was not the the insider and chief is jamie. Raskin is calling him today. A please please give us a call at eight. Seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy lino. You wonder it and we don't know this because there's been. I think one hundred seventy five arrests of people that were there the capital that we don't really know entirely what they what they thought but i wonder if some of them thought they'd be fine breaking through the windows of breaking the doors because it was the president that told him to do it that they were not going to be prosecuted that they were somehow had been given you know the green light by the most powerful man on earth to take down the capitol mall. You're gonna say were prosecute. Maybe that didn't matter them. They were following the orders of the president. United states fall on their sword but for him. He's the most propaganda earth and he's telling you go. Do something might have been very surprised to find the fbi showing up at your house at six o'clock in the morning you know. You're going to march with them. Whatever that i mean part of the tape that was place. Yesterday was that infamous spurs. I'll be marching healdsburg heel spurs on january six eight seven seven three zero one. Eight hundred nine seventy. It is really accountability is. We're going to talk about this on. tv tonight. The notion that he could escape from this with no accountability under the constitution and he may be tried in a criminal court. Maybe a federal prosecution for this. I don't know but this is why a provision like this was written and more incredible to me and then we'll get to the calls more incredible to me than the notion that you could vote not to convict is that you could be. one of. The senators voted yesterday to say that there's no jurisdiction can't trust a for again. It's a liar us. Thousands in january exception is if you if you commit a hong crimes and misdemeanors in the last month office. You get a free pass. Essentially obviously they're hiding behind technicality. Which isn't even a legit one. But you know it reminds some of these cases it may people so enraged when you read in the paper about some guy that murdered somebody and then he gets off because on page seven of the of the documentation. Somebody forgot across. T- i'm exaggerating. But we call that getting off on a technicality. I mean it is it. Is the last refuge scoundrels here that this is what they're doing because i i mean they obviously know that that's their only escape route. How can you say this is not a big deal. And and i was just looking to see fox was covering this was wall was talking and they are so you had those fox years at least during the day seeing what actually went on eight seven seven three zero one thousand. Nine hundred seventy waited. Long enough cumberland rhode island allan. You're on the show. Hi my i. First time caller. I'm very well thank you. Thank you very nice to talk to you today angel. Your program very Well i've been very concerned obviously about what has been happening. The impeachment trial and but i think absolutely donald trump needs to be held accountable and What i wish One of the house managers would say to the republicans energy seems solidly behind trump. I would like to stand up. And say if someone of consequence i e colleague standing to your left or the colleague standing right had been killed in january during the invasion of the capitol building Would you still be singing off the same so she today and if in fact you would vote to acquit donald trump those circumstances than i have your republic and democracy and saying well how about a A comparable Situation They're a regular guest on. Our show is a big gun. Control advocate used to say it may take you know the shooting of a member of congress. Well steve scalise and gabby giffords were shot. What did that do nothing. and so i i. I've gotten to. I don't think there's anything other than the people wising up. Alan constituents wising up double caught. They will go wherever they believe. They're there people are on this issue if they believe that will determine their employment. And obviously they've made a calculation that the way to reapply for their job to get rehired in twenty twenty two twenty four twenty six condoning this kind of Incitement and it's unconscionable but where it appears to be allen. Thank you for the call. We eleven about the citizens. United states can file a class action suit for pain and suffering under donald trump. Well i'll tell you you're talking about you know we're talking a honor presley about the The covid relief package which probably not one single republicans go vote for. What's the sport amongst the american peoples at sixty seven percent which means that a significant chunk of the people who voted for donald trump. Obviously also support this yet. Is you regularly. Say the republicans in that case. They don't think it'll cost them their jobs so they're willing to vote no on providing help ensure as l. necessary for america's people in businesses. You know someone else's caitlyn just emailing and saying that she surprised we haven't seen the family of the author who was murdered and maybe other people who were injured. Yeah but they're also the guy who lost three fingers guy lost i. She was saying if you had a family members get up there and talk about how their loved. One was beaten to death by trump supporters. She thinks it would be a stellar moments for the democrats the gop square in their seats. I wonder if they are going to bring. I don't think they are bringing any witnesses scenario. But you don't need a witness. You can show a videotape of something. I don't think that's i don't believe that's out side The rules and i have a pretty powerful effect. I don't know if you've got a much more powerful than that video. Did but obviously this survivors of those. Who lost their lives or suffered horrible entries would be pretty profound and powerful to laurie in westwood. Hi hi I agree with you. That i just. I don't understand how they could allow for non accountability And for january. I feel like the republicans it all. They need to do for unifying. Our country is admitting that this happened. You watching that thirteen minute video. And not saying he's guilty of inciting an insurrection is unconscionable and they they're cowards. They have moral compass. No moral compass. And i cannot understand why they think they're going to well. I guess why they want these constituents want they want to keep their jobs with having you know white supremacist and anti semitic people and people that don't care about democracy as their constituents. I just can't i can't understand it by the way the in your voice lori is exactly how i feel. I'm guessing i. I i really i mean i can explain it semi intellectually like i try to a minute ago but in my gut. I'm totally with you. I do not understand how people marjorie said it to some one of our guests the other day. What do you say to your kids. What do you say to your grandkids. What you and. I mentioned again. Where my favorite anecdotes from the first impeachment trial. Courtesy of adam schiff again quoting someone. I can't remember that. Every i believe is every single if not every single. Almost every single member of the judiciary committee voted on a richard nixon. Whether should be impeached. The lead paragraph if not the first line in their obituary was how they voted yes is the most consequential vote that the vast majority of them will take and their whole careers. That's gonna be their legacy one way or another and i'm with you. I don't understand how they don't give a damn about it. Yeah is somebody said several people who said when you look at these videos you look at the violence and look at the hatred and just the craziness this these are the people who want to vote for you. I mean sure if people who vote you want so you know by the way you've mentioned repeatedly here this whole notion that this is a pattern of behavior not just january sixth career. Be happy to hear that while we were on a few minutes ago. Swallow from california. You mentioned He actually singing your tune. Here's a little taste of congressman congress. Will he built this mob over many months with repeated messaging until they believed that they had been robbed of their vote and they would do anything to stop the certification. He made them believe that third victory was stolen and incited them so he could use them to steal the election for himself. Is there anything that that trump supporter disagrees with. I mean i'm serious. I mean he prime them. He groomed them. They acted on his behalf because obviously had he won the election. He would've said it wasn't rigged and it's because he scared people into not reagan. He said it was going to be rigged and then obviously it had to be rigged because he lost in fact he the truth is he won. Not just one. He won by a landslide and they essentially did the bidding. And if you listen to some of the sound bytes. I'm sure you've heard these long before the thirteen minute video presented yesterday. A ton of these people say they're there because trump told him to go there. What more causal connection do you need. I mean really. I need seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine hundred seventy laura. Thank you for your call. We appreciate it is really hard. It is really really you know. It's one of those things. Where many years ago. I don't know when i changed my mind. Maybe during trump. I use you know. Gerald ford got a Profile in courage award. I believe that it's true from the kennedy library for the courage to Pardon Richard nixon very controversial of thing. And at the time. I thought it was an act of great courage. Actually probably still do. But i thought it was the right thing to do. In retrospect i don't think it's the right thing to do at all at all. There was no the whole notion is well we america needed to move on but as so many people have said during the the the the alleged racial reckoning in this country the situation with donald trump unless there's accountability. How do you ever move forward. But i think you could argue that that nixon was totally different for one thing. The republicans do the right thing down. Say to get out of here. The second thing is he was remorseful. He he he he. He has some sense of shame and he resigned. Time or oba resign. He resigned because he was going to be impeached and removed. He did but they didn't resign of principle emails on because this is small potatoes. Richard nixon is small potatoes compared to this. And i guess the thing is we're kind of at a crossroads is this is are these radical right lunatics. Going to go to run america. I mean i think that's the question we're facing right now or are the forces of for four years. I know donald trump leader. Well is this going to keep going. I don't know. I don't know i'm all for president is i don't know if they'll ever be another donald trump. I don't know but if the president is not held accountable for this all jamie raskin if this is not impeachable what is then. What is there discourage the next. Donald trump or trump himself in a second term. Should there be one in twenty twenty four from committing similar sorts of know. Your party's gonna spurrier. You want also wonder. God forbid there's a future tragedy like benghazi When we had americans killed when there was that rate on the on the embassy. I mean The republicans going launch an eight investigations on something like that with a straight face. I mean i don't know how they can have any credibility at all but again They're not they're not turning out marjorie taylor green. They're not going to vote to impeach. Maybe they will. And i'll be thrilled but you know what i mean. They've they've decided that this is the route that going in. I guess we're kind of an existential moment here. Is this for them. You mean for the whole kind of their about well. Maybe i'd say for the maybe for the whole country. Richard foul mouth welcome. Hi yes hi before. I say what i wanted to say. I wanted to answer your question. What would be impeachable for today's post reagan. Republicans it's very clear having sex in the oval office with an intern and then lying about it now. That is obviously a high crime. I wish i had thought of that. Richard apologize. I wish i had thought of that question. Point is yeah. I think the democrats made a mistake. What's it became clear that we're going to get the two-thirds majority because of the gutless republicans. They should've thought it. And demanded that mark collett indict comp for inciting to riot and color murder. Well by the way garland attorney general. I and he's having a pretty slow path to this maybe not as slower as as unsatisfying. As effort to get on the supreme court was you know by the way richard. We have no idea what justice department is gonna do Under joe biden has when merck arslan is confirmed. assuming is joe biden is made it pretty clear. He wants to move on and stay out of this. He's also made it clear that he wants his justice barbara to be totally independent so on one level it seems that he is he is a while. He says he will stay out of it. I worry that the clear message to the attorney. General is the president. Wants to move on. And i hope that the attorney general independently will decide if federal statutes violated. We read some of those statutes to laurence tribe the other day the professor of law emerges from harvard law school and he believes as do i as the people who the law carefully there that donald trump has committed. Federal crimes committed them on january six. So we'll see richard your Clinton thing was great. Thank you so much for sharing that. I wish we had thought of it. Eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy is our is our number eight in providence. Thank you for calling I walked thirteen minute video this morning. At i'd also watched a lot of the other videos that were streaming through and one thing i thought is when i saw the men and women in congress on their hands and knees. I wished for a moment of truth feeling when they would go. Oh so this is sandy hook. Oh so this is las vegas and i don't know if that's ever going to happen but if fees Cool agains were armed. It would have been quite a bloodbath. And by the way some the world armed and even for those who were armed with firearms. There were a lot who were armed with Things that were intended for other purposes like five flagpoles flypast came weapons. So i i would say a lot of them. Were armed and i was one who thought amy that that as the caller suggests that a few minutes ago the when they were threatened themselves they'd finally vote their conscience and obviously i was totally wrong. I guess i'll learn from that any other thoughts. I'm here no. No i agree with you and I just think that the people that were injured and died Is just i mean. This is an impeachable this. I mean trump. i left. And i love the way you said. This is impeachable. -actly the bottom. You know how deep is the well of just just adjust. I don't know maybe you it's really satisfy is that we haven't talked about this at all which is also good We don't have to hear a trump's legal time analysis how he's being screened screwed and all that sort of thing. We did hear reports last night that he was enraged by his lawyers performance. And i have to say in fairness the donald trump. I wanted to be fair. I was donald. Trump ran those lawyers who represented me. I would be enraged. It was almost like a wayne's world in was kind of bizarre one with the first guy when he was a cast that up and said you know we had to change all thing. I wonder if they were so good. They did such a good job very well. Dressed friends jim. You know who we ask her out this way to get the suit in my building. Nineteen i think he overpaid by twenty bucks. They will thank wardrobe was the least of his problems. My god it was just unbelievable. Lawyers are known for having a gym. You know what. I'm saying that this was a cancer or shown who did that. Sycophantic thing trying to. I think to the senators are saying how well you know. You're not regular people. You're you know it's the kind of thing that a low rent lobbyists tries to do with a state rep. You know to inflate his or her ego. Honor you honorable sir. Whatever honorable ma'am. It was a pathetic. Cast be traumatized everybody. Americ- cash is going to be traumatized. I'm going back lousy job he did. Let's see if bounces back today. Or maybe they have a different lawyer. I don't know. I mean fox was saying how horribly was. Everybody was saying again. Gotta we ought to be clear because the show is almost over. Criticizing lawyers should not suggest from either me or margarine. No good lawyers would have been able to provide an adequate defense. There is no defense. I see that's the behavior in the nave. A famous lawyer claris daro. Johnny remains off watching perry mason. You nevertheless fictional. He's he's concerned that wasn't real jim. Atticus finch atticus finch gotten them off. I don't know. I don't even think like i said the lawyers gotten people that are guilty off like i said johnny cochran. Even he could have done. we're redone. whoops sorry we're gonna take a lot talking to the next day. Trial is it goes on this. We are okay Tomorrow tune in abroad gonna be with us for another edition of law and order education. Man paul rebel on one of the schools if ever going to reopen jennifer horn. She's former head of the new hampshire. Gop she's going to be with us She just left lincoln project. Doctor about that We have our crew. Thank chelsea murs so matthews. Can you believe aidan calmly. Mackenzie farkas engineers john. The claw parker our offsite engineers mile smith and dave goldstein wasn't the to jammed. Well speaking of accountability. We're gonna talk about accountable. You read rene grams of at great yes. White supremacists never being held accountable. We'll go mukunda from harvard. Kennedy school also piece about business leaders like with a crash in two thousand eight. Never being held accountable. We're gonna talk about what. Lack of accountability means Particularly in this trial then on a certain who owns eliana and a bunch of other restaurants and rachel miller munzer jones mama's amongst the restaurant tourists who are now doing subscriptions as a way to try to live get through the pandemic. It's a really interesting twist restaurants and they're both gonna join me to talk about how it's working and some other things as well and i'm also going to talk a little bit about the two million women who've been forced to leave the workforce because of the pandemic and lack of support from month high places. Yeah that's it so. I'm jim brother. Thanks again for tuning in hoping tune in again tomorrow a great day.

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"Support for boston. Public radio comes from the d'amore mckim school of business at northeastern university. Where leaders can learn to harness data and technology. So they're prepared for the future of work it's business education reimagined northeastern dot. Edu slash be more ahead on boston public radio. It's infrastructure week. Finally president biden is touting a two trillion dollar plan to fix roads and bridges address climate change in racial equity. He plans to pay for it with tax increases on corporations and the wealthy j. John gruber will join us to explain whether this is a good idea for economic efficiency and fairs it's under vaccine's ag. Healy supports mandating them. Mandating shots for some government. Workers governor baker does not believe skew. Which side are you on. An hours of a gunman opened firing atlantic areas. Spas at killed six woman of asian descent. The confusion about how to classify the attack again. Was it domestic terrorism. How is it different from a hate crime and does distinction even matter nashes. Analysts hewlett kind will join us to discuss that more ahead across the public radio. Eighty nine seven. Gb h marcher. And you're listening to boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h good. Morning jim marjorie. How're you doing. Excellent wide you pause to about it or by. I don't know you sound like you might be a little depressed this morning. Actually not just trying to be nice perch good. I'm glad you're well. I am glad what you want to wait there for a second okay. So let's proceed. As far as the republicans are considering president. Biden's build back better plan being announced today might as well be named tax. The rich today biden is unveiling multi trillion dollar infrastructure bill which is expected to fund through a number of tax that includes raising the corporate tax rate increase in the income tax rate on individuals. Earning more than four hundred thousand. Actually i think it's families making more than forty thousand could be wrong expanding. The estate tax in creating higher capital gains tax rate for individuals. Earning at least a million dollars annually. This a fair and feasible way to finance his agenda or could this crush the economic recovery joining us online for his. Take on this. Jonathan gruber. john's the ford professor of economics. Mit instrumental in creating both massachusetts healthcare reform and the affordable care actors. Latest book is jump. Starting america have breakthrough science can revive growth and the american dream. Okay professor gruber ready for class. Hey thank you for attending even virtually today on john so so look We need to break this into pieces. This is so fascinating is can take multiple shows. Talk about what biden is currently proposed at. I just we're just learning. This morning is to break up his big plan to two pieces and the plane. He's going announced this afternoon. We'll be the big infrastructure piece And that will be financed exclusively through increase in corporate taxation. The next piece will involve the increase individual tax income taxation so by the way the next piece is sort of the human infrastructure piece of infrastructure that the fixing here college etc. So i'd like to go slightly where i order. It's okay with you. Because i hadn't realized they're gonna make that announcement and i'm really more prepared to talk about the individual tax increase. Okay go ahead. And that's what. I'd like to focus on being come back to corporate tax increase next time and in particular i wanna talk about one particular element of the tax increase which is super important. Okay which is. Let's start with the number. Which is why we sat on our asses in twenty twenty at home in front of computers. The stock market went up by a trillion dollars beyond what we expected. Who won from that. Who gained from that well. The good news is half of all families in america. own stock. the bad news is it. Forty percents of stocks are held by the top one percent of americans and seventy five percent by the top ten percent. So really these. Large increase are concentrated among the very wealthy. Now what but the thing is we talk about that. Let's focus on what it means that the wealthy get money from this because it's paper money right there stocker worth more. The way they get money of course is by selling the stock and when you sell a stock you create what's called a capital gain. That's the difference between their basis. Which is what you paid for the stock and your sale price. So if jim buys a share for thousand dollars and sells at five years later for two thousand dollars that's a one thousand dollar capital gain. Okay now they're these. Capital gains are huge. They're currently more than one trillion dollars in capital gains over a year. That's five percent of gdp. Wow okay that is a big number and capital. Gains are way more concentrated in the rich that overall market holdings are because the rich to turn their taxes over more and tend to invest in higher return. Equities here is a stunning fact. The top one percent of tax payers. That's one point. Five million people pay more than three quarters of all the capital gains taxes. Okay sick of it that for a minute. One percent of americans pay three times as much or earn three times as much in capital gains the way to think about it as the bottom ninety nine percent combined. This is an unbelievably concentrated. Capital-gains realizations is not just for the top. It's for the very top little. If you look at capital gains realizations the top point one percent. That's one hundred fifty thousand people. Okay have about a quarter of the capital gains okay so we think of packs holdings osama concentrated but the real money make taxes which is when you sell them is super concentrated money. You make stocks. Which is when when you sell them. Yeah exactly now so we think we should taxes and we do. we have what's called the capital gains tax. Which is your taxed on the capital. The difference in what you sell the fully pay for it but the capital gains tax is way lower than the tax rate on it on earned income and that's for four different reasons. First of all you don't pay the capital gains tax till you sell the asset. So let's say jim bought that stock. It went through the roof and he decides you know what. I'm not going to sell yet. Well guess what. He can delay taxes until he sells it. And it's better to pay taxes later than sooner right so basically the first benefit is you can delay when you pay your taxes. But here's the real wrinkle. Jim doesn't sell that asset until he dies his kids pay no tax on it on the capital gain. We have something in. America called a step up in basis that death which basically means if jim bought the stock for a thousand when he was forty. And it's worth a million. When he dies his kids get the treated the stock they bought for a million. If they sell the day after he dies they pay no capital gains tax. Okay so all. These wealthy and capital gains can completely avoid the taxes by just holding them and passing them on but john just to review where we are so far and tell me if i miss something. So one issue is you hold these stocks until death. And then essentially you're gain is never taxed at all or you sell them in your lifetime and the gain that is tax is taxed at a much lower rate than jamie john doe who were just turning a typical salary like most americans do correct. I haven't even gotten to that haven't even minute ago. Okay now. there's another point. Which is jane and john doe. So let's see you make a thousand dollars on your stock. This year and jane doe earns a thousand dollars that her job okay. She pays taxes this year. You don't pay taxes till you sell. Which could be twenty years from now. That's an advantage. It's way better to pay taxes. Twenty out of pay him now. Okay then on. Top of that is the point you make which is capital. Gains are taxed way lower the regular income the top income tax rate for individuals. Today's thirty seven percent okay. Trump dropped her third nine six to seven. The top capital gains tax rate is twenty percent so essentially we are taxing. We are taking this capital gain which you could delay taxes on perhaps forever so it's already a great deal and we're tax get half the rate that we tax regular. It is an enormous hole our taxes. Okay before you talk about reform. What 'binding does about these things. What's the rationale for those who argue that you should delay taxation of of Your stock earnings until you realize them until you sell. There is nothing wrong with not paying any taxes if you pass your stockholdings onto your heirs. And thirdly that the when you do sell The rate on your profits should be lower than the ray roughly half of what the rate of a high income wage earner who just got a paycheck should be. What's the rationale indefens- of those john. Okay so let's talk about. You listed three things and they're they're increasingly difficult to rationalize the one that you can rationalize is the not paying until you sell. This is what we call the mark to market problem. Which is look if it's a stock. We know what it's worth the end of the year you tax on it but if it's a painting how do we know. Capital gains are not just on stocks. If it's a privately held business how do we know what it's worth the end of the year we don't have a stock market value for it. So the the reason that we may need delayed taxation till what we call realization until the assets sold is that unlike stocks. A lot of assets. Don't have a price that you actually know until you sell now. That isn't necessarily have to do. Senator ron. wyden has proposed what's called the mark to market bill. Which would try to address this. But it's actually pretty hard. This is the one where you can sort of. See the rationalization does that make sense does even though. I don't know what i know. Wyden is the chair of the key committee there from oregon but it seems to me that you could establish some independent standard which is applied to that capital gain of yours and if it turns and that's what your tax the pond even having sold it and if it turns out there needs to be as some adjustment when you actually do sell than the correction in your tax payment can be made that point. Could it not senator. Wyden must've called. You is that what plan i didn't. I really didn't know that but it's that that's exactly what you can do. But you'll find a bunch of tax lawyers who will raise one hundred different problems with that. I'm just saying that's the most challenging piece. Okay so what is doing about any of these things Okay great so the second question but then you say well why not at least tax when folks dying. The answer is we should. There's no reason not to okay. The old reason was well. There's you know. How do we know what is worth. You bought the thing. You know you might not know what you paid for it. And that's like we keep records now. Okay there's there's there's no assets people buy in the last forty years we don't have a record of what they paid for it. Okay so basically. That's the bs argument. And we absolutely should and biden this proposed ending the step up and basit death which would but then what's come to the real meteoric which is the tax rate. Why you should be lowered. Here is where actually i am. Outside of the mainstream of economists. I got sick crazy. Right-wing economists we do both. We think you're crazy. White rightwing economists. Those absolutely but on this one. I'm actually wealth to the left of the profession. Because that's the typically countersued say oh and not be communist by the way if i asked the typical purse. I discussed this with they say well. Gee shouldn't we tax it less. Because should we promote ristic. So the argument is g. When you go and earn your money at your job you just slogging away in your money but if you're taking risk that's really valuable if you're if you're if you're investing you're gonna be a job creator you're gonna really start the companies in the future. Should we reward that okay to which my responses maybe but only if you i give me some evidence that rewarded causes more of it and there's no evidence there's literally no evidence defy rewarding capital gains. We actually promote economic growth and action reward entrepreneurship. Many of the most of the capital gains. Don't go entrepreneurs they go to guys about paintings own timber or you know or you know who sat around earned a bunch of money this year. Okay so the bottom line is the argument that it would encourage and moreover let's just think about it. Think about it for a second. You're graduating college. And i say to you well. Do you wanna start a company and make you know. Eight hundred million or six hundred million. Are you really not going to start the company. I mean at the end of the day. It just is just no evidence that really deters entrepreneurship. So it's really a theoretical argument without a backing and it may be right. I'm not saying that wrong. But here's some sense. My bottom line you've attacks which falls incredibly on the most wealthy and there is no evidence out there that is particularly beneficial insurance promoting entrepreneurship and economic growth. Why do you wanna tax it so much less in. But let me just let me just throw one more number out discuss one more number. Let's imagine that all we done is said for the we agree. The stock market run during cove. It was not about anybody making smart investments. it was just basically money. Nowhere else to go into the stock market prices up okay. Let's say we template simply took the stock market run up during covert and we tax that civil run-up we raise the rate from the twenty percent to thirty seven percent. Just on the run up and twenty twenty. We'll call this. The the sort of procession taxes attacks on the set of people who got lucky because the market went up. That alone would eighty billion dollars a year okay. This is enormous money. We're talking about that. We can do credible things with and we're just not talking about this enormous flow on our taxes. Too quick questions on the a lot of people get concerned about capital gains that when mom and dad dies. I'm getting these emails. No they're going to inherit mom and dad's house and they're gonna get crushed. I thought mom and dad's house had to be worth massachusetts more than a million dollars or something before it matters. Yeah i was already i. Such a long list of ways we benefit capital gains. I left off the list. Which is your first five hundred thousand dollars selling a house or not taxed. Okay so unless unless unless my dad's house is worth more than five hundred year. Okay no no no not just worth more that they made more than five hundred dollars over what they paid so unless mom and dad's house is worth millions. You don't have to worry about that. The second thing the second thing is i mean this whole capital. Gains thing seems like the way. We've run this country since reagan which is dark money wealthy people give all these monies politicians and politicians make all these laws that have resulted in the worst inequality ever seen. This is all about that so wrapped up in that. Isn't it well. You know. I'm gonna say a little different. And here's why guess what. We're not the only country that does this in germany. There's no tax on capital gains in many many other countries have also have lower taxes applicants. We're not alone this is the one is uniquely. American screwed up political things. This is i think quite frankly. Unaccessible leaf without evidence that economic theory. That basically you know. And and i've argue with many people at once again. This is not so this is not something where the us the outlier okay. This is something were around the world. There seems to believe that we shouldn't tax risk taking which attacks were taking less. And it's a belief without evidence. And it's a belief that i think is causing a unfair inequality taxes now of course in european countries. They take you know. They're doing other things with spending try to equalize income distribution. So there's other differences but but margie. This isn't this isn't just uniquely. Us lobbying by the coke brothers. Okay this is really sort of a fundamental belief in economics and actually you ask people on the street. I'm sure you'll get calls comments people saying well. These are risk takers. our business formers. We shouldn't tax them. And you know what we didn't ask them excessively. But i don't no. One has put a convincing argument for why we should tax them less than we tax versus going to work at that john. Let me get. Let's get back to the focus of this thing for a second. Is this tax rate differential on capital gains versus regular income this currently thirty seven versus twenty percent thing. What is biden proposed to do with this too Forget this the windfall from the one pandemic your long term what change in the tax code is proposing to address this This differential what happened announced it yet but in his campaign he talk about literally tax and capital gains like regular income. But i think it's all right. Isn't that only for people with whose income is more than a million dollars a year. Something or am. I wrong about that. That's going back and forth. It's if it's not clear it's not clear whether you would whether he would have an income cap on that likewise sorta the step up at death. You might say okay. Only if capital gains mo you know like we have an estate tax exemption. You might say for step up and basit death. We're only going to you know do that. Have you had more than exit gains and that may be the compromise to try to deal with the fact that many americans do a capital gains. Like i said half. Americans in the stock market. Many americans have capital gains Not to be fair remembered. The capital gains rate for most americans. Isn't that much lower. it's only lower it. It's capped at twenty but it's a regular income right up to twenty so the typical american is paying a twenty five percent income tax rate. It's not that big a deal. Twenty to twenty five. It's very rich. We're a big deal where the tax because thirty seven and remember biden is proposed. Raise not to thirty nine point seven so it'd be literally have yes so there's a fix that the gap gets bigger so he's proposed stepping up basit death in closing the gap with some exemptions and honestly for for for the for the closing the gap. I don't see a reason for an exemption to be honest. I think anyone who has a capital gain once again. We're not talking about punitive tax. That's the thing. We're not talking about punitive taxation. Were just saying why. Should you get taxed less than the person who went to work and earn the money. Can we talk about another part of biden's plan about raising taxes and households making more than four hundred thousand dollars. And i assume this is in part because the trump taxes task cuts went mainly to wealthy people in corporations. And your argument. Of course you'd get from the conservatives or republicans is that you know. This kind of thing is job. Killing etcetera if in texan corporations will work cetera but doesn't seem unreasonable households making more than four hundred thousand dollars. That's a lot of money look i. It's it's so interesting how we've You've heard of grade inflation. This is class definition inflation. So we think in the middle class is maybe more than one hundred thousand then obama to try to make sure he was covered. Raise the definition to fifty thousand and now suddenly four hundred thousand Let's live four. Hundred thousand is something is just below the top. One percent of americans top one percents starts at about. Hi four hundred okay. So it's really only the very very rich that would be hit by an increase of that type. And that's why honestly i think that's too high number. I understand politically why you do it. But there's plenty of people twenty means below that number well so what's the argument against raising taxes on households making more than four hundred grand. It is it's the classic supply side economics arguments that if you raise taxes people put less effort into earn less and basically that's an argument evaluated ad nauseam and the evidence is clear. Which is that if you raise taxes on the wealthy it is true. You will raise less money than you think. In other words the revenues will knock off dollar for dollar okay but it's not 'cause the workless is find other loopholes to avoid the taxes jelly. The right answer is we need to close loopholes not not raise the rate john. One last thing for me didn't obama and clinton to some degree raise taxes on the wealthy. And if i'm right about that What was the The doom and gloom predicted by the opponents surely did not come to pass well. I absolutely right Bill clinton raise taxes on the wealthy and lo and behold we had rapid economic growth president obama put in one of the largest sectors in the wealth tax increases on the wealthy. We've seen a long time to fund. You know the affordable care act I i you know And that was a very large tax increase on families making more than two hundred fifty thousand dollars. A year and economic growth was rapid. There's just now once again jim. You can make too much of that. Lots of things change over time. And i'm always lows to to use. That can make the fact that economic growth has been much more rapid assistant under democratic presidents and republican presidents. You know there's lots of stuff driving those in those kind of time. Series arguments are hard to make compellingly but the bottom line is surely if this was the economically devastating change critics suggested we would've seen it in the data and the bottom line is the rich can afford made more in taxes. We we have our tax burden in the. Us is too low as i said before we are. We are fourteenth among developed countries to share taxes share of gdp if we raised our taxes massively of the level that by talking about we might jump to twelfth. Mabel jumpers okay. We are so far out of the norm for developed countries. And here's how much race in texas and they're doing just fine economically wants. You know we're never going to say another word about you. Want to say never i. I'd your producer. I think we might be on the same side and this one last thing john this. We're almost out of time here. But this all has to do with the rampant incommunicado. We always talk about we look and essentially it does and essentially it comes to the fundamental debate about is income inequality about the fact that rich people are just increasingly skilled and the skills were awarded the market or is it about that. There's what we call economic rents and that is you said as you pointed out marjorie that the system's broken in a way that allows rich people to kind of rip off the system more than than poor people. I mean one thing we've talked about. Before the simple example which is tax cheating tax you exclusively the providence of the rich middle income. People don't cheat on their taxes because they can't our tax are withheld for our paychecks. What are we supposed to do right. So that's it's yet another example of where and not about the rich being more productive or working harder. It's about you know and we. That's another thing binds proposed by the way which we do is we need to address this massive inequality in tax enforcement as well. John thank you on the corporate taxes next time. Thanks for your time. John gruber you bet. Take it easy. okay. That was. I feel like i'm making up for the economics didn't take college. Jim listening to john actually sort of understand. I never really understood. It is sort of understand it. now. And i'm i'm with him. I think he makes a compelling case as does biden john. Gruber joins us regularly. He's the four professor of economics. Mit instrumental in creating both healthcare reform. And the affordable care. Act his latest book. Jump starting america. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth in the american dream. Coming up we're asking opening the lines at three eight seven seven three one eighty nine seventy and emailed me. Pr w. g. b. h. Talk ford opening that up and asking you now that more of us are getting vaccinated and more venues are opening back up. Do you want private. Businesses mandate vaccines or not. That's one eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston. Public radio marjorie. Regan jim brady. New poll by suffolk university on the globe finds that seventy one percent of those surveyed said they approved of governor beggars handling of the pandemic though we got slightly lower marks fifty eight percent approval for the vaccine rollout. So we're asking you. Where would your approval rating land if mandating vaccines had been part of the vaccine vaccination strategy to get us the herd immunity and freedom. More quickly as you may recall last week attorney general. Maura healey told us that. The vaccination refused rates among state cops correction officers was unacceptable and that vaccination should be mandatory governor baker. A few days later told us he didn't think a mandate was the way to go at least for now he thought it would be better for there to be quote a greater normalization to the whole idea of getting vaccinated. We're taking your calls and we're going to go further than he'll a. Beyond just certain groups of public employees should vacs stood vaccines be mandated in massachusetts or in america. Or are you with the governor on this. Let's just keep pushing ahead. As we are and revisit the issue later mandate or not to mandate. That is our question. Eight seven seven three zero one eight nine seventy. If you didn't hear the show we should let people in on what they said. Here's more heelys earlier this month on the issue of mandatory vaccinations for at least law enforcement. Change should the state police be mandated to get a vaccine as well. If you're going to serve and do your job. yeah. I do believe that and you know i'm not answering this question legally okay. I don't know legal answer this question. I think that's probably legally the red question but answering this question as a matter of what's right and practical and kinda says and so about a week later. Governor baker is with us talking about vaccine hesitancy in the question again of a mandate for me. The big issue here is. Let's get as many people as we possibly can vaccinated. Give people some give people a little bit a rope on this whole question associated with president seen concerned about vaccines generally And then see where we are. See where we are. Where are you eight. Seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy s i said to mandate or not the mandate where you on this mortar. I know for public employees. The ones we're talking about your with the attorney general correct. I'm with attorney. General and i think that businesses should do the same thing they should you know there should be silent. The restaurant our staff is vaccinated. You need to have a vaccine to come in here. There should be at gillette stadium. There should be fenway park. I mean this is seven million. Times is killed more people than than our wars i Millions of people have been infected. I just don't think there's any excuse to say. I mean unless you are the rare person that is the rare person who has some kind of medical condition that prevents. You're getting. This is a rare person there is no religious exemption here. there's no religion that weighed in on vaccines. They weren't around When vaccines were masked by christian scientists may be. But there's not many of them. I think it's a no brainer. You can't you can't claim you don't have a right to make anybody else sick. You know by the way one thing we don't play here is the legal game. Art caplan said to us repeatedly. He thinks that legally there limitations on mandates as long as it's the drug the vaccines not formerly licensed but only have emergency use authorization. I wanna talk about philosophically whether or not vaccination mandates boards margaret. Said our the way we should be going eight seven seven. Three zero one. Eighty nine seventy. I'm with marjorie on this. I think the time is right particularly even though we are good news on the vaccines for teens. Today from pfizer the only way we get the herd immunity as long as kids are not vaccinated if we have something like ninety percent vaccination rates if you value that freedom which i sure as hell do then we got to get to the resistors and if you can't convince them then maybe you've got a force and let's go to in worcester your first on boston. Public radio welcome to the show. I'm mark hi marjorie jim. How're you doing. I got young speed goods. A rutgers rutgers announced that all all of their employees and students have to be vaccinated for the fall term and whatever. The governor needs to do to make that possible massachusetts on the. I'm behind. i'm an education. There is no reason you know. And this is a way to address the anti-science hangover from you know agent orange administration. You know the science is telling us that this works. There was more good news today. There is absolutely zero reason. Why people are not being vaccinated and if they're not vaccinated then as far as i'm concerned they don't have a right to attend school mark. Thank you for your contribution interesting with teachers too because member that was not a requirement. They're not gonna make. The teachers get vaccinated. The unions aren't gonna make teachers get vaccine. If interesting to see i would imagine that. Not all of them will get vaccinated for their own safety and for the kids safety but it is incredible thing to think about that in nursing homes. I can't imagine what it's like to have a family member in a nursing home and have wide swath of the staff there that so intimately involved in your loved. Ones care or work with you by the way you know. We're getting by people saying that the vaccine doesn't mean you can't transmit the virus and that's true if it's true we don't well i was just about to say. Is that what we think at this point is we don't know if it's true but were much less likely to transmit much virus and that's a big deal because there is some medical evidence that you know the more virus you're exposed to the so called load The more the more dangerous situation is so So i'm hoping we find out we can't transmit and there's also some evidence that some people some rare people have gotten the virus anyway after they've been vaccinated but they're saying ninety five percent right except for these kids. It's one hundred percent that defies the vaccine is one hundred percent for teenagers but the issue is not preventing the infection. I think we have asked backwards. I say this every day every one of the three approved vaccines in this country has one hundred percent effective rate on hospitalization and death. That's so even. If it's only seventy something efficacy with johnson and johnson which means you have a greater chance of actually getting the virus at some level with that as opposed to pfizer were dirna. You're not gonna die which to me is all that matters incorrect and the other thing is that there have been people who've gotten covid and their asymmetric either they never get that get symptoms or they're slow to get symptoms so that is the problem people that don't think they're sick. An fact they are already infected can infect great swaths of people kinder light the first call. I just wanna say one thing. We failed to ask the governor would next time. He's kind enough to join us. Gotta ask him. He implemented a mandated flu vaccine for kids in schools. Why was that okay. And i thought that was terrific by the way and his concerns were obvious because obviously people had similar symptoms come with the seasonal flu versus corona virus. It makes the job of the healthcare professionals. Much more difficult and much more likely to be overwhelmed. Why's that mandate okay. In a mandate here not okay. Andrew in sudbury high high. Hey i'm a second time caller. I listened to your show every single day. I love you guys. thank you up. Talk about the fact that i think to them just state in this country was filled with plenty of self centered mindless morons. And conspiracy theorist anything to get themselves vaccinated and quite frankly. I think they need to be forced to. I think there should be any possible. Mandate for vaccination that there can be. I think private employers should make sure that there are people get vaccinated. We're in the situation now. We're mindlessness and selfishness service and disregard for public safety. Health should come to an end. And i think people don't want to do it. Themselves should be forced to get vaccinated. I think they shouldn't be allowed to come back to work. At certain places. I think that the passport vaccination passport is appropriate. And i think we need to force people to recognize that they're killing people around them and they'd signing selves at basically means to protect everybody from these people and get them vaccinated themselves they want to or not equivocation there andrew. Thank you very much for the call. We appreciate it. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy. We mentioned to because new york is with us all the time. She talked about her her parents who are very conservative very in favor of president trump but there are also a big travelers and they found out that they wouldn't be able to travel almost anywhere without a vaccine that was an incentive. I don't think we're going to have to force people. I mean if you wanna stay in your house and not get access to not go anywhere. Go ahead but if you wanna go out in public where you're risking the health of other people. Then that's a different story. Said try as parents. Apparently despite their their trump of favoritism are going to get vaccinated because told us. I'm fine with that but that gets back to the cdc being upfront every single day. Saying here's what you can do when you're fully vaccinated. Here's which can't do. That's the carrot. Approach you and i are embracing this thick approach in terms of mandates and apparently the caller so far are to marshes says restaurants should scientists. Say no shirt. No shoes vaccine no service. I'm good with that. Eric and attleboro. Welcome to the show. Hi So i have a little bit different. Take than the other callers I think until you have you know a vaccine available for anyone that wants it. I feel like you can't be mankind. Because i'm not eligible to get a vaccine yet so to say that you know. Okay i you know i mandated to have one but i of course. Yeah yeah vaccinate. The people that want it and then worry about the others. Think you're absolutely right. I think it has to be until the time when everybody with their the enough dose. Everybody get when you can't do this now. Obviously party close. We're as april nineteenth the date that all adults and masters you guys check back in brighton and let us know for right. I think it's april nineteenth. Yeah i think everybody sick over sixteen eric. How are you still there. Yes how about people. Is you know that a lot of the people that were first offered the vaccine were healthcare workers. Those include people in nursing homes should they. Should it be no job. No job is the vatican said. The pope said in a nursing home. What do you think about that. They can get the vaccines so i mean. I know. Jim said he didn't want to hear the argument of it's not officially approved but no of course stewart saying everyone. Yeah so i mean that is the fact but i feel like the more people that do get vaccinated hesitancy. You'll have because any you know ill side effects you know okay. Well they would've come out by now. If one hundred million people have been vaccinated. And i think you'll get more hesitant people Willing to get vaccines the more people that have gotten the vaccine eric. Thank you for your perspective on this. We appreciate it. Eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine Seventy is our Number rose in boston. Hi there good afternoon. How are you good. Thanks for calling good I have listened to you for quite a while. And there's something that i've been listening to had thoughts about The trials from understanding it were not done on immunosuppressants and you compromise people This is a very large population of the world. As you know. And johns hopkins just put out. A study finally did a study. And they're saying that only seventeen percent effective on people and i am a transplant patient. Twenty one years. And i don't understand the science behind why this wasn't done originally when so much of the population so is you know is included in this category. But it really you know listen to all the discussions and it. There's nothing black and white. It's very gray area. And i'm just being in this kind of category future is uncertain You know there is not one hundred percent effective this. Nothing's really going to change for people such as myself. So i was just kinda wanted to put that out there because i always hear someone saying. Oh it's one hundred percent this you know no one's gonna die from it but it is such a gray area and i think it will continue to be. So what are your. What are your doctors. I'm assuming you have a A pc absuing have a doctor who takes care of you. What is he or she advising in your case rose. You know what's really interesting. I haven't heard from one doctor in a year. I have reached out before. I got my vaccine to ask One because i have high allergies i have you know resistant to things and i wanted to make sure that i was doing something safely. No answers I go to a very large transplant team. They didn't have any answers that i said. Check the cd website. Nobody knew but i have not been contacted by one of my many doctors in the last year rose. I don't. I don't know exactly what you medical conditions are but i think there are people who do have serious issues medical issues that would be exempt because of those medical issues but it is but i think that is the one place where you could say if people are going to have adverse effects is interesting with pregnant women. They haven't done many studies of pregnant women. Either but i know they're all advising pregnant women to get covid because i know that the higher chance of being sick more sick if you're pregnant but we don't know long term you know that's a little scary too but rose thank you very much your rose before you go away. Just correct one thing. I'm sure you've digested this. Johns hopkins far better than i. If it's the one that came out this week. I actually read an interview with one of the doctors and i thought that conclusion was not that it was dangerous for immuno-compromised person but that their antibody response was far weaker. Am i right about that or exactly. So so therefore they're determining it's only about seventeen and that's one seven percent effective and so that really changes things for millions of people because you know one. Do you put that in your body without knowing what's going to happen when it's only a little effective you take that chance in when you do if it's not effective at all then that really changes nothing for people like us in the future. Rose really glad you called. And we didn't said this. But i think roses putting us on the spot and we have to and the prior caller to when we're talking about mandates and. I'm pretty sure. I speak for marjorie. One we're talking about for those people who are eligible. Obviously we're not talking about people jumping the line when it's their turn we're talking about mandates to as per rose situation if it's determined that a vaccine is not safe for somebody not some medical exemption. Obviously we're not suggesting it'd be forced on such a person. There's such jam subset of people. I did say that at the start actually did yes. There are people that have medical conditions that would that would And and their people claim religious exemptions as we mentioned with our capital million times which is a religion that weighs in vaccinations. I mean i suppose you could say that christian science because there have a thing about medical care but then jellicoe. We're talking about the The jump on franklin graham the other day on this issue so i don't know if it's their religion they is that's the fetal cell thing that some of these vaccines have used fetal cells and but the pope wait in. I mean obviously the catholic churches antiabortion saying that these fetal cells so long ago. He wasn't gonna say you couldn't get this this vaccine and everything is a balancing thing too so but again Be interesting to see how people that are against abortion do with vaccines. I suspect we're gonna get those vaccines anyway. We're talking about whether or not You should we should mandate vaccines either via the government or via private companies governor baker so far reluctance impose more healy Thinks that is the way to go. You listen to eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston public. Radio marjorie and jim braude. We had a long distance debate. I guess you could say over the last couple of weeks. The attorney general and the governor not literally but we asked the attorney general about mandating vaccines for certain public employees like in congregate setting jails etc for state cops. She was in favour. We ask the governor about it. He said at least for the time being he wanted to work on vaccine hesitancy wasn't ruling out but was not an advocate of it. Now we're taking even a larger look and talking about Mandating in general for the population not just government mandates. Private business mandates. Whether or not. It's a good idea or not. And we're taking your calls at eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seventy nine eleven about and email from jennifer whalen. Who says hypothetical situation. I get pulled over on the pike. The state cop approaches by close window as for my license. I hold up a sign. Are you vaccinated. Says give me your license. I say that means no us back six feet. Marjorie froze maggie next to the car and mail me the ticket. What's the likelihood. I go to jail in handcuffs. I think that'll work well. I would advise you try that in texas so i thought we could do with the state police. Maybe they've improved their vaccine rain but they can have one of those you know one of those little circular things around their waists high so that'd be six feet away put radius of a tire and they could hold out. They can hold on a big poll with little little clippers at the end. And get your license registration that what do you think gen y. Think the colonel by the way assuming the kernel exists because we never hear from. We only hear from his spokesperson. I'm sure the colonel would support. That bigly is a former president. One said david in boston. Hi hi hi how you doing great. Hey i don't think it should be mandated. I'd like to be more of a choice You know i. It seems like the people who want the mandate you know if you're if you're afraid or at higher risk of getting the virus and transmitting at that you have the option to get the vaccine. You have the vaccine. So i mean why would you be so scared of being around other people to have the vaccine. If those people around don't want the vaccine why think raza the moment david. My numbers may be a little off. I think we're well below. Twenty five percent in massachusetts who were fully vaccinated so for the seventy five or eighty percent. Who aren't there yet. They are being put at risk right. Well it's not just that you can still get sick david. You can still get sick. You'd probably not going to be hospitalized and so you can still get sick and quite sick. You're saying if you're vaccinated yes. I'm responding to your other point about the fact that if you're not happy as the recipient on the other end of somebody who chooses not to get back get vaccinated yourself. I think that argument has some power david. Maybe in august of this year when we have a surplus of supply over demand. But right now we don't and as a result i think those who can have to. But i respect your opinion. And thank you for the call appreciate. The thing is herd immunity if we have too many people vaccinated. we're not going to get to herd immunity. Which means that we're not going to have. Yeah i mean think of the economy to you. Know i just got an email a couple of. I can't find it now. A couple of people telling me that work in higher. Ed at a lot of the colleges are apparently telling people next fall. Everybody vaccinated all the students. Anybody who hasn't had a chance. We're gonna make sure you're able to get a vaccine. It's going to be as rutgers. University i think is in new. Jersey isn't at rutgers jersey state school of jersey. By the way. I did wasn't aware of this one of our colleague. Zoe posted this that there was a cdc. I'm sorry there was an msnbc interview with rachel. Maddow interviewing dr lansky. Obviously the head of the cdc nears alinsky said our data from the cdc today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus. Do not get sick. And then it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real world data shows that am i missing something or she also suggesting if they don't get it they don't transmit it or am. I drawing too much from that quote. My understanding was that you could still get sick. You just wouldn't get very sick. But she's saying that study of four thousand frontline workers. I'm reading from what our staff just gave us that the amarna vaccines ninety percent effective at preventing infections So you're gonna symptomatic ones. This is the thing that came out a couple of days ago soon. Newton dr found she said the issue of transmission by vaccinated person. This i know for a fact. He said two or three days ago is four or five months away from a conclusive answer. The point that marjorie made earlier. I think is beyond doubt that even if you are able to transmit as a fully vaccinated person that the load that you're able to transmit a hope i have the proper language is lower at worst maybe non existent. We'll see so a newton high high. Thank you i had to call. I am fully vaccinated. I'm delighted to be fully vaccinated. I'm also working on a program that recognizes that the workers in one cares distance programs assisted living facilities nursing homes. Many of them are immigrant workers. Many of them come from nations like haiti and african countries where they have deep rooted suspicions. They are getting misinformation online by facebook. Twitter i think they deserve to have community outreach workers mrs program. I'm now working on in the city of boston. We are retreating people who speak ten different languages training them. They don't have to have a healthcare background themselves to go out in those communities. Meet people where they are taught to them. Learn what their hesitancy is and try to address it. I think that we have not been sensitive to that. And that's gonna be really important. I sometimes get concerned. Martyring jim about your quickness to blame people for not taking the vaccine right away. I think with some of this information sharing from people in their community who they trust that we can go a long way to getting more people back. They don't tell you as relates to the latino portion of our population where vaccination rates or worst half of my television show tonight is spent on the very topic. You're mentioning and i totally agree with you. We should be more sensitive to however let's focus on one huge part of the problem The political divide which is far greater on vaccine then the racial divide forty nine percent of white republican men. There's no communication problem there. There is no language problem there. Can we at least agree that day that it should be mandated for them. I would agree with that. That's okay and by the way in indefens- your position knowledge do i agree with it. I think that's what in defensive governor baker saying to us the other day right in the communities with the legitimate hesitancy given time and work. Like you're doing and congratulations to you for being bar that the same time so you can understand. I'm sure many people have loved ones in nursing homes or they're in rehabilitation facilities whether people recovering from accidents. And they're saying i'm afraid that my loved one is going to be infected and die so there we need to we right. I think we need. We should have done this from the start. I mean we need to really expand and there are a lot of organizations now that are training people up trying to get them in there quickly. Yeah well that's one of the things that michael kara was talking about. Other people talked about too. Is that trusted. People in people's communities are the best spokespeople to tell them that they That that they had nothing to fear. So congratulations sue on on doing the the work to get that the word out like assu point. I'm really glad you called. Actually that's great. Thanks so much. I think we're out of time. Unfortunately apologized to the rest of her kind enough to call. But i'm sure we'll be discussing this again not too distant future. Okay now. we're gonna be talking with juliet. Kayem national security expert budget. They've been talking about but one of them is. Why aren't more shooters in. The united states charged with terrorists or hate crimes. That is next. Juliette camera national security expert. She's next on eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio ahead on boston. Public radio dr. Deborah birds was largely silent while she worked in the trump administration rarely pushing back against some of the more outlandish medical disinformation spread over the past year now. She says she was threaten and intimidated. We'll talk with medical ethicist. Art caplan about whether she other doctors in the administration should be held. Accountable admits staggering cova. Death numbers two n channing. Christopher myers of the dynamic duo myers chang restaurant and flower bakery on many restaurants have had to shutter locations during the pandemic. This team has opened a new flower location in boston. They'll join us to discuss trials of the past year and what lies ahead as a city of merges from each league winter for the food scene. That's ahead on boston. Public radio eighty nine seven cheapie h off naive march regan. You're listening to our number two boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gbh on my goodness walking into at. We're not even watching cnn. Join us align the latest national security headlines is juliette cayenne. That's her voice. She's a former assistant secretary of the department of homeland security faculty chair of the homeland security program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government and analysts for cnn. And most importantly she's on zoom marjorie. Juliet eldest trying out. Where i'm like calling you through my phone. But i get to see you too and i miss you all so much like it. Is there the post peleton word. You know my my teacher. Who's by the way this is my paint. Peleton looked because. I'm never doing it so it's my permanent pre peleton. I'm juliet juliet. I think you're going to be one of the experts is going around talking about the advantages of getting the vaccination. We just talked about this and listeners. Whether whether private companies you know restaurants gillette whatever should mandate vaccines before people come in where the government to it. Some people are skeptical and the hill. The good piece about about people like yourself that provi. Yeah going onto skeptical places like maybe newsmax. You're going to be a doctor ause and asking about why people should be more ready to get the vaccine. So how do you do that. Our was ramos been really interesting so remember where we were six months ago. Four months ago. Our vaccine hesitancy was high Across the board in particular Minority communities the truth is the data. Now first of all let me say. The data looks great. I mean in the sense. That as i've been saying vaccinations beget vaccinations. Are the more people get vaccinated. The more other people feel confident in it. We still have a very very reluctant about thirteen. Fourteen percent at no but most people are are in the as soon as possible and right behind them is the is the Yes i'm gonna get it and let me just see what my community does. So but the systemic problem is of course we've been talking about it conservatives out but it's actually has a little. I was just looking at data this morning. Actually a little bit of a wrinkle Which is also a woman that were starting to see a gap in Vaccine rates between men and women. That men are actually getting higher rates and really fifty fifty. Yes already i know. We're just starting to see it may be something about kids or reproductive issues or whatever so i get a call from dr oz. You probably know how. I feel about. Dr oz who was who was first of all a skeptic about cova generally he then he's to his credit. He has forcefully. Come out both in terms of of of public health protections as well as vaccinations and i originally said no and then i talked to two or three really close friends use judgment i trust and and and and one of them to them were doctors and said do it. Because you know. I don't need to talk to you know my cambridge friends. They're you know they're killing each other to get to get in line. So yes oh i did. It's going to air on monday. That pushed us few days. Was i think this week. And just you know to my audience which is mothers and women and and and you don't you don't shame you don't mock you you just explain what the data is really showing so it's just an a new audience for me and it's right audience. I know i know a lot of people might be like dr oz. But it's the right audience you mentioned reproductive issues because i've heard a lot of concern among pregnant women about whether to get the vaccine that we know that it's the women can get the vaccine. In fact babies are being born or at least. I've seen some data with with antibodies. So that's good. So there's there's no car out for pregnant women. I mean the big carve out now is of course is and we're starting to see that changes of course people under sixteen but we saw good data this morning. So it's it's so there's two different issues which is of course one is one is vaccination resistance and i. I described it this morning and a tweet in crowd control studies. We often note the phenomena. You'll remember you'll remember this when we used to go to malls right a totally empty mall And six cars all parked relatively together. So what is that you were. Why is that happening. And it's actually this idea of social cohesion. Actually in our behavior of how we park that was a sense that the first person who parked might have the inside scoop might know something. I don't know. And i park close to them and i think that's true with vaccinations. I think if we can just get heard parking mentality you know that we so that the more that come. We don't shame people we don't mock them but we we get to different audiences and i think it's important that that that people who are asked go on the conservative radio shows you know. Make sure that you're going to be listen to that. It's not like a surprise attack but he was great. I mean he was it was it was crazy. There's all sorts of graphics and stuff but it was really fun. And i heard you're gonna be on dr oz on monday. I got all excited. Because he's hosting jeopardy and i thought oh my god jeffers but unfortunately it was. We're talking in story. We're talking to juliet juliet since nine. Eleven of course so much of our efforts to fight terrorism has been about. You know another another nine eleven kind of thing the the chair. The house homeland security committee is listening in michigan congresswoman. Saying that we really have to refocus this now because domestic terrorists that we need. We need a domestic terrorism czar and the budget. I guess is so heavy toward toward another al-qaeda qaeda as opposed to what we saw at the capitol on january six. Oh is the ship turning here. I think so. I mean i think i think that's right. I know if we need needed. Czar there is a white house position a director senior director at the national security council. Who should be coming out with review in a in two or three two in a month or two About white supremacy and white nationalism. And and all that kind of terrorism we saw on january sixth the department of homeland security is beginning to steer money that way it takes a long time to proverbial not to move ship as we saw raise beside the suez. It takes a long time. So they're starting to get some money out and about you know this is. This is one of those things where it is. Not an all clear. What government can do in terms of carats versus stick. So when i mean. Is i. If i were to use every dollar on just you know investigating and litigating and indicting and putting in jail these people i would because i think that has such such a destabilizing affect we've seen it in the january six cases everyone's turning on each other family members either see their family member On facebook and turn them it you you basically you just got to stop the ability of recruitment in these organizations to unify. I also think it's as i said early. January the d platforming an isolation of donald trump that has will have a tremendous impact on our sense of vulnerability. And i think an and his ability to to align people. It's it's it has a damaging effect. I don't i don't deny that. In terms of people having confidence in democracy and in moving the you know the gop essentially taking the narrative of january six which is based on white supremacy and denying minority votes and and moving it to state legislator to deny minority votes. I mean that's basically what's happening. But i don't think that that's i think that's a litigation strategy. I don't not sure what the government can do in terms of hearts and minds. And i'm not even convinced that that's what you'd want them to do. When you mentioned d platforming trump and people don't sort of appreciate the value that i just wanna play one of the more irresponsible it's hard to rate them with. This guy is on fox news the other day and he's talking about january six. This is so outrageous. And when i first heard it. I assume that he wasn't talking about that event he was talking about something else. Listen trump had to say it was zero threat right from the start. It was zero threat. Look they went in. They shouldn't have done it Some of them went in and they're they're hugging and kissing the police and the guards you know that they had great relationships but great relationships with officers sick nick they had a great relationship with. I mean this is demented destructive sadistic every damaging thing he could do to progress in this democracy and making the people safer whether it is corona virus or domestic terrorism. He takes the the wrong side but the only look at look at look at vaccinations. I mean he he. We know that conservative men in particular conservative magazine or one of our most resistant. He secretly has the vaccination he mentions it casually in a long rambling paragraph. When he's on air one time about also he understands things like freedom. I mean just his his lack of responsibility and this is why the. I the isolated important but you i don i. I'm the last person to say we. We don't we are. I'm the first person say we do have a problem. Which is you know a as a party or or vast elements of a party willing to accept the racism. At the heart of the january six insurrection And use it as a as a as a political strategy and that's just you know the the long-term answer is Is is get them. Get the mount right and and and and you know and maybe they get themselves out with all these just disgusting sex scandals that they all seem to have the other day mercury owner. Stay on a related theme permit. My understanding is there's no federal crime of domestic terrorism. There are crimes in lots of states hate crimes but the issue is not. What's on paper in statutes. The issue is how to prosecutors determine what is a hate crime. we've heard this endless. I think demented debate about whether or not what happened in atlanta was a hate crime. I think the facts are so evident. It's in it's in saint. We saw last night on the video grotesque video of this filipino. Woman being kicked to the ground kicked in the head these security guards who should be arrested themselves absolutely nothing. They arrested the guy who allegedly did it in the way. We found out from our colleague zoe this morning that he killed his mother in two thousand and two so we have a little bit of history on this out walking last night but what needs to be done. Yeah so the prosecutors have greater ability rather than engaging an endless handwringing about whether or not a particular crime is a hate crime or not. How do we get there. So so i think part of it is to begin to understand the legal matter so this is going to take judicial opinions and being made of the of the That that racism is in a binary motivation in other words. It's not an on off switch. So if you wanna prosecute a hate crime so if you look at atlanta let's say you just let's say you buy the argument that It was about sex and his and and it was about not nazi. It was about his his Sexuality or or or whatever. We're religious issues. He had about him one sex a lot. And and but that that that actually can is not inconsistent with a hate cri- before husband because because the fetishism of As we've been reading from asian american authors in particular female officer fetish is of of of Asian and asian american woman in terms of a demure or sex or concubine all of this historical notion of sex in the asian american woman that that is tied to maybe his primary motivation. So we don't so. I think that we get stuck in this idea. Like hey does either on could be part of some just discussing ideological sued. Vise take with them and i think that we need to begin to argue that in court so that courts begin to to to recognize the the the the nonbinary of of of of hate in in these cases and we see it. Come on we see it with january. Six where we have everything from you know oush camp auschwitz to To you know nancy. Pelosi is a be slashed. T. c. h. Right i mean these things are not mutually exclusive. Hey so i do that. The second is on the terrorism charges. there's a lot of debate about whether it's necessary so i should just make it clear. It is not necessary to prosecute these people for very long periods of time based on present statutes federal statutes including a federal hate crime and And i do worry about domestic terrorism statutes. I've always worried about them because at one stage fighting will not be president. And you just don't know how federal prosecutorial tools might be used for ideological purposes. So if you ask me in terms of an agenda setting For war the kind of hate that we're seeing i would you know i don't know if passing a domestic terrorism statutes in my top ten right. There's a lot more that i would rather spend our resources said you're speaking of top ten. What rates in. What order the amount of people and i'm among them by the way who will i praise much of what the new president has done. Sort of backburning. Maybe that's unfair but making a lower priority of to get some commonsense gun reform through the senate is a big mistake you know. It's easy in an academic debate which we read a lot about to say. Well you know you should care about gun reform whether there are mass murderers happening or not but we all know the only time we ever focus on it and ever pressure on the holdouts is when things like atlanta and bulger happen. And i don't understand strategically maybe you do What i understand. He wants to do the stuff. That's sort of you know a meat and potatoes so to speak real people whether it's infrastructure. Today the rescue plan last week. But don't you worry or don't you think that momentum is lost if weeks and weeks go by pressure in the senate to do background checks and maybe even assault weapons bans. Well you saw me on cnn last week. There's no question in my mind what we need and so i thought about this but let me let me defend because i also was concerned about this. Let me defend what i think. The the the priorities are terms of the legislative fixed. So because we're starting to see it and people are gonna think i'm crude talking about polls but that's the world we live in so between cova and the and the and the stimulus and the and the a belt people will begin to Feel normal in quotes and also support for biden's clearly up we we see it and on those issues. The same is true will be true for infrastructure was just going to be the next and so why do immigration and guns always fall behind. It may be that what they're doing is waiting to see if they're going to have stronger senate in two years to push to push important agendas. Here's the problem for democrats on both of those issues People who are for gun rights vote for gun rights vote for gun freedoms whatever the non no gun legislation for democrats gun. Legislation is not their primary reason for voting. So you just have this gap between the gun lovers. What they live for ingle issue voters. And what happens is is is to go up against a single is voters need a larger pool of people who put gones at four or five or six. And this is. This is going to be true of immigration. The immigration hawks or the anti immigration hawks like stephen miller. This is what they they live and breathe for people like me Fu care about immigration immigration reform. Where do i put. It might list between koo and and the economy and you know it's gonna. It's gonna paul a little bit. So so he's he's got to focus on the the the single issue that's going to matter to voters for him which is going to be the economy and getting us out of the in the open and then And that includes that includes brooklyn richer and then and then you turn to the the progressive issues that ranked four five or six by most Most people in the. That's that's my. That's my thinking you know the gun. Discussion one of the things. I had john rosenthal in tv with other night. Obviously he's the guy who started co-founded stop handgun. Violence been added for decades. Did that incredibly powerful sign that we'd lived with on the bike for years and years and years. He had a brilliant idea. You know if you live in massachusetts people say what can we do have some of the strongest gun laws in the country. What is there for us to do. He mentioned to me the other night. This part of which i knew but never thought about in this context that massachusetts gun manufacturers making market more firearms than any state in the nation smith and wesson for example made the ar fifteen years in parkland the fifteen used by the joker in aurora colorado and. His argument is what we should be doing here. Where we're much more amenable to gun. Reform is we ban. The man manufacturer of assault weapons made here if they can't be sold here and all of these weapons. These assault weapons can be soldier but are made here and exported other states and if it is legal and does not violate some constitutional provision. I think it is brilliant and it and one of the few areas where massachusetts could do something that would affect every state in the country. I just i love it. Yeah that's interesting. I don't know the i don't know. Would that violate the commerce clause. I dunno whatever bet but that. That's the kind of creativity that we need. And i think that you're seeing on the local and state level. This is the this is the service sadness of denver. I mean boulder while. I don't think that the bullet prohibitions would have impacted that particular purchase that was used in boulder because the firearm manufacturers have gotten really good about avoiding certain signature language that requires coverage so that gun is considered a pistol the one that was using boulder even though if you saw like okay that is like that. Looks like a rifle to me and so Is is is the kind of of local and state you know progressive ingenuity that. We've seen that we that we saw with the g. q. movement That maybe finally takes hold but it is just. It's been a problem for democrats from the beginning of the people who really care about protecting gun. Rights really care about it and we care deeply about it but but we also care about a lot of other things. Much guys good luck. I'm sure you're is not for me. Somebody else joins every week. She's former assistant secretary. Department security faculty chair the homeland security program if harvard's kennedy school of government and analysts for cnn. And soon t start dr oz. Show coming up. Is it morally justifiable to use four biddies to get a vaccine. The end result means more of us are fully vaccinated medical ethicist our joins that much more. He's eighty nine seven. Gbh boston walking back to boston public radio marjorie engine brady. When it comes to the chronic ours. Silence equals death. Should deborah burke center colleagues who failed the challenge. Trump's misinformation campaign be held accountable for the astronomical number of covid. Fatalities are not. Join us online and talk about this. People who are using foam orbits get vaccinated and other medical headlines kaplan artists. Doctors william f. in virginia connolly mitty professor and founding head of the division of medical ethics at nyu school of medicine. That's new york city. Hey there are goblin. Oh you are really a riot. No so our kaplan will get to your foam or abilities in just a second. Let's let's start with a bunch of stuff on the vaccines great news. I think about the pfizer vaccine and teenagers. Yeah looks like it's working. It's affected by the way no reason to presume it wouldn't be just you don't roll out vaccines without you. Know the data really showing that safe and effective but biologically the way the pfizer vaccine works to sorta trick the body into making little Fake info protein as a matter of fact A little target that then. If the real virus shows up the body will attack that mechanism should work in children as well as adult. So i'm pretty optimistic. That yeah we're we're gonna have something that we can basically vaccinate everybody maybe even davies by the way that is great. That is great news. Second thing that we get some callers emails yesterday. The asked a great question. They are vaccinated themselves. Or maybe they're on the way to get vaccinated. They wanted to get their teeth cleaned. They want to go to the doctor's office they wanna know if the staff and the office has been vaccinated and one emailer said that she was told. They couldn't release information because violated. The hip law seems to me. That's a perfectly reasonable question to ask for a patient. But maybe i'm wrong by the way donald yesterday marjorie and agreed with that. the said. that's the reality. Wh what's the truth. Ear hip hippo is great and it's something that people can invoke and say we're not going to publish a list on our door at the dentist's office and the doctor's office who's vaccinated. Who's not but the questions. Legit sure ask by the way. I've been arguing that you should ask about flu shots at the nursing home and now soon we can add cova shots. I think if your mom or dad is in an institutional setting and you're worried about risk there you should be asking. They don't have to answer true enough but it seems to me likely that they would. And it's a fair question. So yes you could ask. If it doesn't stop you from asking but but the hip it does preclude them from answering. Is that no no no. It means they don't have to assume they could answer but so hopefully they would answer any behind. Hip is kind of a. That would make me nervous if i said well. I can't tell you because of hippo. Yeah we're getting into weird territory here. Are i mean. I guess you could say You know the flu does kill. People not obviously Nearly as many. I mean what is it. Sixty to eighty thousand people die from the year. That's a lot of people but it's not half a million people. It seems like we're getting into an odd place here where we're pushing these vaccines and they're very very effective and yet we're not going to insist that people get them or reveal medical offices as soon as we get a little bit more data that we do Insist that medical officers vaccinate. The dentist offices vaccinate that nursing homes vaccinate the staff that hospitals vaccinate. And if you don't accept you don't work there. So i'm going to be Screaming for mandate soon. You know we've had this discussion. Vaccines are out there on. Emergency use authorization. They're fine. they're safe but they got approved if you will without full licensure because we need them so badly so we didn't want to wait and i support that just makes it harder to mandate you'd have a better legal challenge and saying well so license product so you can't make me do it but i would like to see some nursing homes and hospitals and clinics try. I mean let's see. Let's see if it's good enough to give to the whole country. I think it might be good enough to give nursing home staff. You know by the way we should just say dr. A minute ago we were talking to our listeners. About mandate versus non mandate an attorney general. Healy was with us about a week or so ago and said that she wasn't answering. It is a legal matter but she thought that some public employees in congress settings it should be mandated. The governor didn't agree a few days later. But at least you have one attorney general who is on the Mandate signed and. I made clear on whether you're one of the other vaccine things. It's becoming a huge issue and it's going to become another one of those distracting cultural debates in this country. These vaccine passport things. I think the argument against vaccine passports to me the only argument. I've heard that. I find compelling is real big issue. We discussed this with a travel writer. Globe sir christopher there because obviously certain people don't have access to the technology or the vaccines themselves could exclude that segment of the population that has been excluded from so many things the gop of. I don't know if you've heard this martyr art. Some of the suggesting that having vaccine passports is analogous to the nazis branding so out of control but putting aside the lunatics in the republican party. Where do you fall on this issue. I mean we started discussing it with your last week about. I think it's There's gonna be a separate section for the vaccinated at miami heat games. I think more and more is opening a lot of venues. They're going to require proof of vaccination no yeah didn't Mac get say that when he was transporting Women around Underage women and he wanted them to be vaccinated. Allegedly allegedly around. Yes anyway. yes oh the right way. And we're governor dissent us in florida. Who's been kind of nuts throughout the pandemic basically said you'll have nothing to do with passports. I think he was one of your. You know this is to -tarian you have to show your papers. What is this look. Let's make a distinction. I vaccine passport. I'm gonna use that term. That's what you need to travel internationally and we've been trying our papers to travel internationally for about. I don't know two hundred years Biden administration right. Now says it doesn't want to get into international vaccine passports. It would be something you'd probably staple in your passport or pen do it. We've had by the way yellow fever cards to show yellow fever vaccination for a long long time and many countries won't let you in unless you show that card so the by ministration says it's not gonna issue. Let's call it vaccine visas attached to your passport. I'll give them six months. Plenty of countries are gonna demand that to get in right and then we have vaccine authentication little different. That's that's what. I meant travel around here and inside the country. That won't be the government. I know these people keep saying it's like some tele -tarian thing look. Here's who's going to be trying for vaccine. Passports disneyland The miami heat Your w h to sit in the studio and why you Healthcare so private entities are going to begin to say thirty have planted out. Madison square garden is said. You can come in here for sports events if you show a negative co the test or proof of vaccination. It's already started. So those vaccine authentications. That's what businesses. So they can get back to business. Drawback customers broadway cruise ships those places. The idea that this is some kind of to tell -tarian infringement crazy why because no one's telling you you have to get vaccinated means you're not going to the basketball game. I tell you something if they required vaccine audit authentication to be imprinted on your forehead if it meant that salad bars and i would have it branded over every inch of you know what's that i don't know if it's going to be the Gyms vaccine tattoo parlor that will be sub business but we probably will see bracelets. We may see necklace you know. There are a lot of ways to carry around your vaccine authentication. Here's a little tip just for listeners. Free advice remember that. Cdc cord that you get when you get two shots we got onto it. I have some advice. I take a picture of it. Second make a photocopy of it. Then make sure it's accurate. What's on there and then laminate the during thing. Because i think you're going to be showing it in different places to get in and out now you don't wanna get vaccinated. I'll i'm gonna say again is take it up with the private business that's going to require it. Don't yell with the governor. Don't tell me about fascism. It's a free market where they say no shoes no service no vaccination not coming in. We're talking about foam. Morbidity kaplan you don't before we leave the laminates for free nobody to tell you about a nation runaway. Talk about arts omnipresence. I order from embarrass say amazon overnight. The you know those lamentation sheets. Yeah i'm literally about to laminate that card and our friend. Sheila marjorie text me. And what does she texts me. Five things to do before you laminate your card on market watch. According to art caplan it was literally like you're invading my xerox. Both sides that sort of stuff so speaking of the foam morbidity thing. Here's my two cents on this thing. Early on when supplies were much more limited. I think this was a real serious problem. As we get closer to the point art caplan where Pity meeting people like in massachusetts. When you were. I think sixty five or older had two or more come morbidity and later it's one come with bitter. I don't know if if you say one of its co but whatever it is But as the supplies Get a greater. It seems to me. Let's vaccinate whoever the hell we can you as an ethicist on this issue. I've been in vaccinate everybody for weeks. We got the high risk people. We got the healthcare workers. We got the elderly. We seem to have vaccinated the nursing homes. That's good There are a few populations we jumped. I don't think we ever really settled on what we're doing with prisoners. And they were all at high risk. And i think some people in group homes adult adults with disabilities say dancer got neglected to put that aside at this point in time rather than telling the vaccinators figure out is this guy who says he has just been diagnosed with asthma telling the truth because they don't wanna do or someone who's lying outright saying you know they got different diseases when they don't if you've been in parking lots and they're really not gonna sort you out according to prove that you've xm a kind of thing so open it up. We're gonna be with ample supply pretty soon. Maybe another month. But i think we'll get more people vaccinated if we just vaccinate anybody who shows up over the age of eighteen or sixteen or whatever. The approved Ranges for some of these vaccines by age. Yeah let's just roll them out there I think the problem will be soon not who's lying to get in. But what are we going to do with. The people won't go one quick thing on this. There's been a lot of criticism of governor baker including on the show on the vaccine role. I think we mentioned you on the prisoner front. He was one of the few courageous governors. Who had the courage. Upfront i think in phase one to say they're in congress setting dangerous for the guards most of whom by the way you're not getting vaccinated is one of the things. He was about He was in the right place at tough place at the right place on people in jail areas coupla governors colorado vaccinate the guards but not the prisoner unbelievable euros fence. And here's a group of congress dwellers that is starting to see requirements pop up which is big massachusetts colleges. Going back college real. Sure they're going to want to see a vaccine certificate rutgers down in jersey already announced that we're talking to our captain medical ethicist capitalist move onto the new. Cdc director rochelle wolinsky. Who's a physician from mass general. I thought she was great when she got very emotional and she talked about being scared and use the words impending doom about she sees coming down the line of a fourth possible coronavirus spike. But she's taking a lot of criticism so was did she go over the top here. Well i mean some of the usual suspects have accused of going over the top meaning. I want my economy open or way at the far end you went over the top because the whole thing's hoax never mind the graveyard. The morgue kind of proved that that's not true. No i think she's she Basically is worried in Emotion i think is important here. Just be flat toned and droning. I think it's important to say i care. I'm worried i'm disturbed. But look the one comment. I would make this. We've got to be clear that on the one hand the messages get vaccinated. It really works on the other hand. I'm worried about a fourth wave coming back and so the message you might wanna refined it a little bit and say look. The fourth wave is coming back and people weren't getting vaccinated or can't get vaccinated yet. 'cause they're younger they're not eligible or whatever so you don't want to undercut the vaccine message that's all. I'm worried about that. That works go do it. That's how we avoid you know. Further outbreaks are speaking criticism. One less thing on the virus for today is i thought this. Who thing yesterday was a grotesque embarrassment. And by the way i rarely say donald trump was right about something when donald trump said. Who not the withdrawal. I didn't support is so controlled or beholden to china that they're not credible. Yesterday was proof of trump's thing when they not only couldn't a nail down what the source was conclusively the back to human transmission as opposed to what redfield dot ready things in the lab. And then you read that. Half of the people in the committee are from china and most of whom are in the employ of the chinese government and the head of the whol himself basically says what we just put out is not credible enough. what does that do to the. Who's standing long-term. Well remember china also way back when disposed locked up. Got rid of a couple of whistle blowers who were s. The world about the outbreak. So they haven't been transparent. They haven't really told us what they know or what they really think is going on problem with. Who is pretty simple. People think it's some kind of powerful entity that can enforce worldwide public health policy. It's basically a bunch of bureaucrats in geneva who have no authority to do anything and relying on their government members for their power and there are thirty and think of it like the un the powerful governments china us. Whatever can veto the thing. Member trump was defunding. It and they had no money. I for a while. I'm not sure they could have afforded to send a team. But that has to really be beefed up. The whole thing is ridiculous. we need to things. International surveillance program worldwide mandatory participation all nations into detect viral outbreaks and a rapid response team. That can go and answer this question. In a timely way not whatever. It is a year in some months after the fact. So it'd be able to go in there with investigative authority. That's what we got to create the current. Who framework is not going to answer the question that we wanna answer it. How did it start. Well here's the question. I want answered that i am obsessing on nonstop since sunday night. I mentioned dr redfield talking about his view that it started in the lab. He said i know controversial. That was obviously part of his interview in the cnn. Special the other night with santa dr sanjay gupta and a bunch virtually all the major doctors involved on the trump team. We've discussed this on the show ad nauseam sunday night. I thought deborah burks performance was an abomination sunday night acknowledging that she knew after the first one hundred thousand that the next four hundred and fifty thousand could be quote mitigated otherwise known as prevented in many cases. We have admiral. Who is not an admiral. Your wa talking about how admitting they lied to the american people about the test and by the way when i introduced you i said you know she was silent. She wasn't just silent. She went on christian broadcasting on fox news defending defending the worst of donald trump. And i don't understand how people who were doctors who either deadly misinformation to get out to the public or support the transmission of deadly misinformation. How there's no accountability for these people is there. Should there be well. i Just to flood your e mail boxes again. here's a quote that i'm paraphrasing from a distinguished f assistant. Nyu who said july twenty twenty one july if you're still in this administration participating in this vacuous culpable cover up. You should be ashamed. That was me. I know new back then that this was ridiculous. I was calling for resignations left. And right 'cause they were squishing the science and killing people. So i you know where i am on this form. A commission a national commission with tough investigative powers. Charge it to figure out what happened. Who is responsible for. Killing hundreds of thousands of americans who didn't have to die hundreds of thousands by the way end. What steps do we need to take to protect the science so that the politicians can't metal bring pressure undercut obfuscate lie and then After we get done with that maybe even building some reparations. I mean i think we're going to have a kind of nine eleven situation here where we set up a commission. Bipartisan and all that and then figure out who's the who did what. How do we prevent it. And then who are we gonna make good because they suffered a necessarily. I support all that but i don't wanna leave the accountability for these people. If any of these doctors individual to an individual patient said any of the things they said of ore were silent when they knew that individual patient was getting information. That could kill them. I assume they'd be sanctioned. I assume they're licensed might be yes. Well multiply that by the. I dunno ten million people. Watching trump press conferences and other ten million watching them being repeated on radio and tv. How can they essentially just create stories after the fact dumais culpas and continue with their careers. I just i really don't understand. This was deadly. Misbehave would argue manslaughter. Something really thing. I agree i agree I think there is a case to be made. That licenses should be pulled and People should not be allowed to whitewash. You know Their behavior The where people by the way who quit there was a guy named rick bright who was inside and he said this is wrong and walked. And you know i'm going to. This is even more controversial. But i was even yelling back in the summer summer. Go that Even tony vouching might think about resigning because science was getting. You know squished and lives on the line. Now he argued or basically said. I'm sticking it out because i'm going to try and steer this crazy ship that You know better to try and be here in and do damage control okay. I don't think burks has ever said that. I don't think some of the others have ever said you know what i was trying to do with you. Know like north the people who were captured in north korea or north vietnam. I was signaling. My is you know torture. I was blinking out of code. That said Don't listen to this. They just kinda went along. And you're right jim. They were even endorsements right defenses. Endorsements that that's just really unacceptable behavior. So i thought some of that show was twaddell ethical. Twaddell just didn't i. It was letting people off the hook when in fact we want to hold them accountable. You i'm a big fan of sanjay gupta. I don't think he should have done that interview. He's not a journalist. He's a physician that that was part of the problem. There is that you need someone. That was i mean. He's not he's not. He's not an interviewer. I agree that however marjorie. It was his interviews. That caused us the here. People like your wife say we li- due to have burks person quarreling with you about follow up and accountability in the interviews. But maybe they needed someone like him sitting across from them to make the kind of admissions they did. I gotta be responsibility. I'm sorry what we're talking about here. Just so listeners. Remember is is going away. President trump covert. It's going away in the summer cove. It's no big deal. Nobody's saying anything. Bleach number railroad friendly each mcqueen. It'll help you. That's what we're talking about in terms of covering up lying not challenging the claims about masking and mass gathering President himself may be may have wound up being the number one spreader of cova contender given all the events he held and what was going on inside the white house. I didn't anybody screaming about that. Well i'm glad to hear you say that are kaplan and i would argue. You should lead the charge. And i'm not kidding. I mean if this is a one and done with these interviews it would be har- for up for this. I'm by the way it's not just this country people all over the world watched what these experts said. And so the the the pain they caused the death they allowed the happen. Spread beyond our borders. We're talking to caplan medical ethicist. You are are kaplan. The associated press great story about loneliness in nursing homes. You're quoted in in this piece about the people being lonely and frightened and pointing out that Staffer should be vaccinated and visitors tested. But i did think when i was reading this that. If family members of these lonely people who have not seen family members that through a window or something if they're doubly vaccinated and they're tested why these nursing homes giving them such a hard time about coming in to see their mothers or their spouse or whoever it is i mean this exposure to others that the fear. So what we haven't done and we still haven't done it. Another horrific aspect of this outbreak is figuring out ways to get people isolated so they can be visited by people who are either master wearing protective gear or all of whom have been vaccinated. I can't believe that this country allowed old. People die alone in rooms with no visitors in with relatives knocking on the window. My mother others Then we didn't figure out a path to say you put in the moon suits you go in there you at least have an ipad and run it in there. I mean we neglect nursing home. People and i know it's gotten cuomo in new york in trouble because he seems to be covering up the number of deaths that occurred there. But what i'm saying. He's not just if the manner of dying the loneliness the inattention to the psychological toll. I i'll i'll say this if you were told my mom last year you're going to spend the next year alone in this room. No visitors someone will toss a meal in every day. You can watch tv. She would've said gee any way i can check out now. I mean no one wants to be in that circumstance. It's worse than the solitary confinement in a prison. We blew that that has to be fixed to is it. We just did a terrible terrible job and did we do a terrible job because administrators were worried about liability more than they were about humanity. I mean what house. How do you explain this neglect things. One it's just a population that we don't pay much attention to ever they. Just don't make it on the radar screen very often Nursing homes i think government officials were afraid of the toll massachusetts new york terrible death tolls what was it. Twenty five percent of people dying at one point where in nursing home. So i don't think up and down to reveal that or talk about that or really convey the degree to which you're in trouble. A lot of the nursing homes are under staffed. A lot of the nursing homes have people in there who could make more money working at a fast food joints than taking care of your mom That's never been righted nursing home personnel. Move from place to place. They were spreaders because they have jobs that they need to go. From one nursing home to the next nursing homes the next nursing homes. He got structural features. That are all wrong. The whole system of nursing home care. I hope gets reexamined as part of our post pandemic Debriefing because it wasn't good to begin with and the end. Kobe brought out every rotten aspect of it. You one quick thing. Oh go ahead go ahead. i'm just sighing shall another cy thing. I don't know what's happening to the united states. America's going backwards and so many of these republican run states. Now we have twenty states introducing these bills banning gender affirming medical care for trans youth in some cases gay and lesbian people. I mean what are they supposed to do. Our part of the doctor by the way. Even if it is i'm gonna correct you slightly marjorie. They don't bend the care. They allow the doctor to refuse care right so then. Jim's question are you kidding me. I mean really come on. Here's the here's what the ama code of ethics is patients. First here's a code of ethics. Says that i'm aware of in nursing or pharmacy ear Physical therapy or anything. Patient interest patient welfare. I here's another little thing. It says do no harm. You can't in conscience refuse care to anybody if you can deliver it. I mean if you're competent to deliver it if you're able to deliver it. These laws are the most morally repugnant. You want to start talking about to tell the -tarian nazi and so on. Where's this screaming about this arkansas. By the way his pass this law. it's not hypothetical. Some of the other states are debating it obama it passed and the governor signed a law. Saying it's okay if you don't wanna take care of a patient because of their gender orientation oh my god that is that that may be the ethical violation of the year so for but if you have some some fervent even white evangelical physician. Who believes that that you know gay people are one step from satan hook. They're licensed take their licenses. I won't do it without even happen. The state like rock and saw no no no no. You'd be protected. But i would hope the medical society would go after you and i would hope You know you would have national condemnation to the point where here's something we should be doing. People love boycotts. I wouldn't step foot with an event arkansas until they pull that law back. That is just on acceptable. It's just vile well. This is an uplift in congress. Something uplifting the teams getting vaccinated as always. I capital very much cap. Join us every week. Is the doctors william averaging committee professor and founding head of the division of medical ethics. Nyu school of medicine. Medicines gives me a new york city coming up as a reopens. What did it take for joe. Wenchang and christopher myers to keep their businesses alive. Flower bakery in the restaurant myers in china. They dressed with that conversation of next eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to the boston public radio. Jim brady and margery eagan. Now than massachusetts is reopening after being in a state of economic paralysis. We'll be checking in every week with local businesses local institutions mayors across the region to see what it took to weather the pandemic and make it to the other side. We kick the series off with joy in chang. Christopher myers behind the restaurant myers in china in the flower bakery and cafes. Joanne is a james beard award winner. Winning chef and author. Her latest book is pastry love. Christopher has been in the fine dining business for ever joanne and christopher. It's great to talk to you both. Are you do you the both of you. We miss very much. Well it's good to talk to you to. Do you really think that anyone's listening after kaplan everybody's on the zakim bridge because the tobin bridge is just so ugly. Nobody wants to jump off anymore. But i want to jump. There were some down moments in that conversation. Marjorie said the upside is twelve to fifteen year. Olds the pfizer vaccine works so look at the bright side my friend now i he he might be my favorite guest of yours i. He's so bright and funny. And but i'm done i gotta go by the way. Was there a question that we ask that. That was in response to or not. Well his no. It doesn't matter what we show and it is very nice to have you here. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thanks so every time. I taught you guys. I think. The last time i was out in a restaurant was myers and chang for one of my kids got me lost. Obviously marjorie has had it in light of our kaplan to she's frozen. I don't know what the deal is. Joy in starting with you i think marjorie was going to ask is. Let's start with today and then work backwards in this discussion. What's the state of affairs for your restaurants and for your workers on whatever this is march thirty first march thirty first. It's about a year since we shut down and then started to slowly reopened Say that this state of our bakeries and restaurant is looking positive it's optimistic. We are seeing a lot more people. You know vaccinated including our team. We've got more people coming through the doors at both bakeries and the restaurant in fact it's to the point where i think like every other restaurant tour. We're starting to struggle with steph. We went through ten months of not being able to staff. Everybody and now everyone is looking for staff is. It's kind of tough battle out there. And christopher while you guys were closed for part of this time and then reopening in different degrees you also expanded at least on the flower front. What where in. What was the thinking behind the okay. Well the thinking was two years prior. We had been wanting to go somewhere in the beacon hill area for the longest time and we thought it'd be terrific. Oh impact was really like running on fumes and so we. We took over their lease but then we tried to get out of that lease during covid sunk a ton of money into it but we still thought this is probably just never gonna get off the runway but m. g. h. wasn't quite as amenable to that as as we had hoped they were so we just stuck with it and believe it or not. It's the busiest flower. So he's because the hospital was nearby. Or what's the deal. I think so the hospitals nearby there's just a density of population they're like most of the bakeries but it's also there's a whole foods nearby and there are a lot of people coming in and out of m. g. h. I think that just breeds an atmosphere of it's not that people are not fearful and not taking precautions but when you're around a hospital you know everyone is very keenly aware of covert and taking the right and then living their life so i went to what this has been like so many friends and colleagues in the restaurant business this year. Been you just in terms of you know chatting with your friends or try wondering why this is going to be over wondering where we're going. I just kick them out of business. Yeah exactly i. I had some fun conversations this morning with with people that are maybe segue if not out of the business into product development like. I'm kevin walsh. Who used to be the bishop cleo really talented kid He's been all X. radio salaam he developed lobo tak- ice cream at any for maggio or copa. Try it. it's incredible Lots of people are just hit visiting. I know this this conversation's going to be about kobe. In the business the biggest quantum shift. That's going on in. Our industry is going to be personnel. And i think that whether i think the big question is how many people percentage of people are gonna come back and wanna be in restaurants because of apparent risks that it might now that are different from working in an office. Yeah just just because we were close with people it's a it's an abstraction plus patel is an abstraction of expressing humanity. It's a. It's a hug if you will with a nice plate of food. And i think i think some people are being scared away during this and every single solitary soul i. I've spoken with says. I don't have anybody to open up with Wow that's the. That's the big. I hate the expression. That's normal for right now. Well we were talking before the listeners about vaccinations. Some people are still hesitant. Fewer people are hesitant. But there's some for political reasons were hasn't how do you feel about you know no shirts. No shoes no vaccine. No service kind of deal. We haven't do that. Rat jump yet. In fact we have team members who are reluctant to get vaccinated and so we tried to incentivize them to get paid time off to go. Get vaccinated Everybody gets a fifty dollar payout getting vaccinated We're letting them know that in within the next four weeks or so. We're going to open up for indoor dining and if they're vaccinated just be that much more protected but we do have a number of people who are just refusing so. I don't know that we have. I don't think you've decided to do a no shoes. No service no vaccine. No service coach puts yet What reasons do people give you joanne. They are i mean. There's anything from you know. We have some black team members who are who are honestly fearful of it. We have some team members who just who are young who say quote. I'd want to wait and see what happens to everybody else. Who's getting vaccinated before. I do it to myself. I mean they're young realized that this is part of what we have gone through as humanity. Stay alive you know with all the different vaccines that we've gone through impasse and we have some team members who were just. I think there's a lot of nervousness out there. This was a really he'll for everybody ovid and then within a year. Oh here's this thing that you're going to shoot up yourself and be okay except for are not trusting in the science and onset at and some people are pretty alarmed. We have Revoked are are no shirts. No shoes policy so you can just come in want Good bourbon we don't care. That's the voice of christopher myers showing in chiang from meyerson. Chang flower bakery. Virtually everybody with whom we've spoken in. The last handful of as people began to see the light release thought they did. And plus what we do is well both on radio and television. There are some good things that came out of this at least in terms of how we will do what we do differently that we would never have contemplated before christopher starting with you. Are there any of those things for you. Guys have done everything from pop-ups obviously i'm assuming takeout is obviously as a percentage of your business in greece dramatically. But i know based on your emails. You're doing different stuff. All the time is any of that stuff going to survive. The joy of a sudden realized. We should have been doing that all along. And it's going to help us come future or no. I'm not sure. i mean that. Everybody is expanded. Their personal hygiene is probably grazing I don't know how much we're all gonna miss the handshake. The i think the elbow bump is a little silly. But the fist-bump works The the visits that we've done to other cities has been. They've been really long like we drove up to new report a couple of weekends ago. And and just you know people preordered and we had sandwiches for three hundred hundred people something like that. how so that has been fun. We'll we continue to do that. It's it's i hope to get back to a point without might be unnecessary because it's it's really a lot of work And it's i'm not sure it's always welcomed by other local eateries to see us. Pull it in our flower wagons and you know selling soup and sandwiches. I'm not sure. But i mean there's certainly some really terrific things that of my my favorite thing that's come out of out of the pandemic so bars is. I don't know if you guys remember the black folk cafe in jamaica plain Well the owner of that is the owner of pizza in and harvard square. I'm steve welsh And he could be aji means today and italians anybody who doesn't know he could he also a homonym with. oh gee. He could be the ojea of black chefs in boston. And he's opening up next to the original black broke. Fa he's opening up a little pizza joint there Call being on perkins street. And that's going to be fantastic for jamaica plain So that's a positive. It's not ours. But we love him and he told me if i didn't mention at least twice that he's black mary. I'm that he was gonna come over and beat me with a pizza appeal so i wouldn't mind being beaten with a pizza appeal right now. Said hey joanne. How hard is this. Been for you this whole twelve month thing. I mean i. I've said this. I don't think i've ever had a conversation with you ever in which you didn't talk about your concern for your workers. I'm talking normal times. I'm not talking pandemic times. How hard is this thirteen. Months been for you. I mean it has been really hard. This business is hard enough without a pandemic every day and people are working really hard and sometimes they feel under paid under appreciated. Mean do everything you can to try to create an atmosphere that they can thrive in then throw pandemic on it and uncertainty about wages uncertainty about their own personal health and just hesitation about every single thing in life and the fact that many of our team members again a relatively young. I mean i think for the four of us here and presumably many listeners gone through a lot in our days and for a lot of our team members. This is the first really big happened. And they're freaking out. It's tough it's tough to see young people who are just shaken by everything So the last thirty minutes have been really hard but honestly on a on a positive note. It has been really inspiring just to see how resilient they are despite their you know nervousness and and Consistent all their worries they are amazing. Bunch and we've really just learned a lot from watching them kind of pushed through very are up on an emotional level. There are many of the people that have stayed with the hospitality. Business over the last year i could say are are. They're gifted in in many ways. But they're torch i think emotionally so if you happen to be going out anytime in the near future i would implore everybody the show Like an inordinate amount of patients for restaurants that are coming out of this either nation period. Because we're sort of like opening without spring training and If a if a ball goes through our through our legs the metaphor for that was. Maybe your dish wasn't season properly. Maybe your stake is overcooked. Don't flip out Which which was. All of our tendency sometimes overreact for dinner. It's going to be a while before people are getting all the would on the ball to continue the metaphor you know chris for. Maybe i'm wrong about this. Everybody knows how nice joanne is possible. Just listening have you gotten nicer during this year in a month or no. Well i don't know. I usually when i listened to your show a lot and usually i cry and sneak in little naps when you're talking and i wake up when marjorie talking on. This is the first time i've stayed alert. It's really kind of means a lot to me coming from. I think not joanne. So we want to shift gears in a second before you mentioned undergo one of you guys. We're talking to myers chang. You mentioned a minute ago opening like as an inside kind of thing. What's the tentative schedule for. Both flower and monitors and chang joanne flex its influx. we were eligible through the vaccine About certain yeah march twenty second. So we're giving everybody a couple of weeks to get that shot and then there's you know four weeks after that so he would like to open. Indoor dining at point and of april early may some locations honestly. some of the bakeries are so small. We probably won't be able to happen with any Just because in order to do social distancing while people are waiting for their order but those locations we have Outdoor patio. Swimming tried to extend those so we will stay tuned. We're talking to joann. Chang'an christopher myers margaret. You gone is that what apparently marjorie has lost. We do change. We've talked a lot on the show. All of america's talked a lot about what happened in places like atlanta. I guess a couple of weeks ago. We all watched a lot of us. Watch this horrific video out of new york city. A guy has been arrested for kicking this asian woman to the ground on a sidewalk continually kicking her again joanne. What's your reaction to this year in the explosion of Racism directed asians and asian americans in our country. I think it's probably similar to the feeling that a lot of black people have. Which is that. It's new and it's not anything that That surprises any loss It's just now it's in caught on camera and people can see it. And i think you know in talking to my parents. Gosh they were so pragmatic about it. They were just like this is just what happens in america. This is just how it is and it was interesting. Because i hadn't really realized how much they had built a shell around themselves to protect them from people who were You know giving race racist insults to them. I mean my mom worked my entire life and she dealt with a lot of racism and i think she just ignored it honestly and i think that's typical of what a lot of asians will say is that they've just kind of ignored it and let it try to roll roll past them and i think now with everything that's going on. They're realizing that that's not helpful. And they've got to speak up and they gotta make people aware that it is happening. And it's harming all of us not just asians but the entire community your christopher. We've i know you're chinatown denizen. We've talked to you about it. In the past we read the other day about the. I mean we know. There's been a huge decline in business for all restaurants in greater boston but apparently particularly precipitous one in chinatown is. That is the decline there. In your estimation just typical of what's happening in the restaurant business in last year in a month or is it exacerbated by what we were just talking about with joanne. I think it is exacerbated header Yeah i i hate to say that. And it was obviously very early on the restaurants. Were empty before anyone else's were You know where february where. We're obviously crazy about asian food so whenever we can get from from chinatown we do on little beautiful new sushi place over there tour. We absolutely love But i i also yeah i. If there's also been some sprawl trum Drum john down into wearing the leather district new storefronts that are run by on as families. i have very little doubt that they have the spit and block To get through this much like the restaurateurs that are of other ethnicities by They have been hurt worse. There's no question about that. And if you have a yen for john chinese food please Try and get some to go orders out of the businesses over there whenever you can. The foods just incredible and i was very surprised last february so this was before when we knew what covert was but before we were all really really reacting to it and i remember the time reading that some Chinese restaurants in chinatown were not. They weren't busy because people weren't going there. Just let this is shocking. To people really think covert started wuhan. They really think it's somehow transmitting. Its way through chinese food. And then i found out that there are people who really think that it sounds like crazy. But there's actually people out there who felt and feel that if you eat chinese food you get covid that has that continues to shock me that that was a that was a belief out there so i think it speaks what we were just saying that this idea of anti asian sentiment is something that we don't think about or talk about often but it is there. Just come out. Will you know one last thing i hate to be. The messenger of hope. Almost never am about anything but you know when you go from a president who never missed an opportunity to light the flame of racism and misogyny and whatever else to a guy who goes out of his way to show that all americans should care about all americans and his not shied away at all from this whole this whole explosion of asian. American racism is is. Is it going to get better. Join chang or are we just going to be having the same conversation in a decade where we say. None of this surprises us anymore. I mean i would like to be optimistic and say but it will get better. It's it's you know it's not something honestly i. I think may happen to quickly. Because i think the people who feel the way they feel are not necessarily going to have their minds changed Because of biden as much as i totally agree with your sentiments i mean. I'm i think what he's doing exactly what should be done. And it certainly isn't hurting. I just don't know that the people feel That way going to wake up because of that but it is a step. I think it's an important step. I think he's i think biden elected on a platform of humanity. Compassion kindness niceness. So i have to see a great deal hoping that and He got more votes than any president. History of of our democracy so So i think there's something really positive in that so before you go both you quickly. What have you thought of marjorie questions for last five or six minutes incisive christopher. I think she's always incisive. There's been a certain efficiency to on questions today. That have impressed me. I i i wanna just shot into a place. I can't imagine anything harder than opening a restaurant. During this bike agothe kathy beatrice and japan over in cambridge processing You know puritan. Well i think white girls new beatrice is his the little girl and he named his cafe after they have fifty seats outside. You can go over there and and get some delicious. Food and beautiful coffees and japan is going to be opening soon and I think it's going to be an incredible addition to that area of of cambridge. That has never had anything like this. So you have gotten nicer. Christopher if i'm have despite what joanne says you had. There's no doubt joanne chang. Christopher maher's we love you. We really wish a lot of luck in the future. And thanks so much for your time today thank you thanks. Bye moderating in here. You should just can't speak and by the way you guys. Just so you're clear marjorie. Once again is having technical got problems. But i know what she would say is. Thank you joy in chang and thank you. Christopher myers for being with us to talk to you both joins a james beard award. Winning chef and author. Latest book is pastry love. Christopher has been in a fine fine dining business for a long time in his really good too is as she to their fellow chefs and restaurant tours. Great to talk to you both next week. As part of our reopening series. We'll check in with michael j. bobby. He's the head of massachusetts cultural council. Coming up a major pain. President buddies dog has been implicated in yet another biting incident sign. Montgomery joins us for this more on this month's addition of the afternoon zoo hopefully with margery eagan right here on eighty nine seven. Gbh Welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and i was gonna say and margery eagan but i just don't know if she's back or wind she'll be back but Maybe soon joining us online. Release joining me on the line for the time. Being to lead our monthly edition of the afternoon zoo. A conversation at the intersection of animal. Behavior and human animal behavior is sign montgomery science courses journalists naturalist. Pr contributor. her latest. Terrific book is becoming a good preacher sign. Gumri it's great to talk to you as always it's great to be back. You know margaret. I think honestly gonna join us a couple of minutes. But we'll get started without her. I decided margin. I decided we'd divide today's discussion into and that's okay with you. We were god. That's beautifully put. Actually i was thinking that but of course wouldn't have said it so almost every time you're on i am incredulous. I read the material about certain things happening in the animal world. And i have to say right at the top. My list today sign montgomery was the self decapitation that is done by sea. Slugs can you describe it and describe why they do it and then what happens after. Yeah man i mean every woman. I know over the age of fifty with possible exception of marjorie. Who was gorgeous has gotten out of the shower down and wished they were sea slug because he's animals can cut their heads off and grow new bodies. It is such an amazing thing. It was discovered By a graduate student at In a japanese Women's women's university and she noticed heads floating around in the aquarium that normally housed the sea slugs known as new breaks and the head seemed to be perfectly fine which usually case. Well the the heads were going around eating stuff and the bodies just floating lifelessly around so she wondered what was happening. What these animals do is. Apparently when they are beset by parasites they just dissolve the connection between their head and their body and then their head goes off. It's merry way and over. The course of like three weeks just regrows a new body and meanwhile it's able to algae which voters synthesizes providing them with the food. They need even though they have no stomach. No heart. No any of those organs. It's just fabulous and they can do this twice in their very short lives. I don't know how long this particular species lives because there's like three thousand species of these beautiful nebraska luck but yeah look sounds so awful doesn't it but nude at brax doesn't that sound exciting nebraska. Brank actually i never heard the term before even though i do watch jeopardy now for the first time years so it should know it. So it's a healing. It's essentially a healing mechanism. That sea slugs do yes. Yes and one what this is. This is the most dramatic example of it. That i think is known in the animal kingdom. But it's called auto. Tommy when you can cut off of part re grow as we know in a lizard do this and salamanders can do this and starfish can do it and octopus can do it and other animals can do it to see cucumbers since we're talking about the see when they get stressed. I mean sometimes. I feel like doing this myself. But they respond to a stressful situation by ejecting. All their eternal the their internal organs which then regenerate that is unbelievable. But i mean this is they only. This is an animal. Can i call an animal. It is an animal. Yes yes okay. This is the only animal can get rid of everything except it's head and then regenerate everything else from its head is that correct or no. Yes that is correct and that to me is amazing. Although i read. I read a review book. Recently of a doctor who decades ago was trying to transplant the head of a monkey and it lived something like nine days. Well i'm really sorry. Brought that up. We're talking to side among coming back. And i told i back. Yes i have on the phone. Jim okay. Let's we'll sadly miss the sea slug conversation. But you can take it from here margarita. And if you guys you couldn't hear me so that was at least something or something you know we talk a lot about eating habits. Here sides human. I and and how jim you know loves to loves too much and i'm impressed. Cuttlefish has more self control than she seems to people. What is fish. Can you describe a cuttlefish. Most of us meet cuttlefish is when they're not at their best and their one bone hanging in your parakeets cage They are related to octopus as they they are also cephalopods and so they've got multiple arms They also can change color and to a degree shape although they aren't completely boneless 'cause they have that big one they're smart and there's a whole bunch of different ones that they're interested in in interacting with people and there's a fabulous website if you if you just can't get enough of cuttlefish go to Giant cuttlefish dot com. And you'll see many wonderful call fish. Doing many exciting things will. But what's the deal with this this self-control and delayed delayed gratification. Right is that what position engages in. Yes essentially what they did was the classic marshmallow experiment from the nineteen sixties. That's a psychologist rigged up to test children and they would present the kids and the experiment with one marshmallow and told them that you can resist eating this unsupervised for several minutes later. You'll get to marshmallows. But a lot of kids just could not help but they had to eat that marshmallow and the conventional wisdom was a children who are able to delay the gratification do better on tests that are more successful later in life so of course it wasn't long before someone came up with this test. For cuttlefish fishburne invertebrate. So what they did. Since cuttlefish don't eat marshmallows was they discovered what is the cuttlefish is favorite. Food won this case. It was live grass shrimp and their second. Favorite food was a piece of king prawn till they took each of these food items and place them in clear chambers within their tank and one chamber would open mmediately where these the other chamber would open after a delay but it wouldn't open at all if the cuttlefish seized the second favorite item. I cuddle vish. Learn to wait. That is amazing. Eight hundred and thirty seconds. I mean we. I think it's totally amazing. But then you know think of what their lives are like you know they. They are hunters Their masters of camouflage they have to learn to blend into their environment and stay perfectly still for long periods of time. Both hunt their prey and to avoid predators. So patience is a virtue. Yeah wonder how you on the casper and everything could you could you. That's been delayed so we won't know but i explain simply what is it that allows what is it in a cuttlefish that allows it to do this. Well his brain. I mean he figures figures it out. it's the same. I think it's the same with us. Even though we are separated from the line that led to cuddle fishing. Octopus is by half a billion years. We're still largely made of the same stuff to the extent that we probably think in a similar way all the neurotransmitters that they've looked for you know the the chemicals in our brains that are responsible for our emotions for example. All of the ones discovered in human beings have been discovered in every other tax that they've ever looked for and you know they have is very similar to ours they They face some of the same problems that we do and so for many species. Patience is a virtue now for other species. It might be more important if food is extremely scarce. And you're not going to see another piece of food like another six months you would be more likely to grab that marshmallow right away or grabbed shrimp right away. But for cuttlefish they have to hunt and they have to be patient and hide themselves for other predators so it makes sense that they would evolve way to be patient expert. Sound like that right now. Here is one of the most incredible videos. I've seen in ages. This little penguin is being chased by a killer whale. Tell us oh my god. I loved seeing that all well. There's there were at least four zodiacs in the in the sea off of antarctica Filled with tourists this pot of workers. And i saw at least three orcas but they described it in. The video is a large pod and Videographer actually stuck an underwater camera down there and the one of the orcas came up and vocalized. You know that that creaky hinge sound and then the pig grunting To add that was really really cool but then one of their favorite items appeared agenda penguin. And they'll eat these guys and two of the orchestra at least two of them start racing. After the penguin penguin is poor passing out on the water back in jumping and back in and then you hear all the passengers going like no. Oh god no go. A little penguin penguin seeing all these boats tries to leap into one of the zodiac's bounces off. Because this is an inflatable plastic thing tries again and one of the passengers reaches out with her arm to help scoop him into the boat and he sits there waiting for the orchestra that you could hear one of the passengers thing. Oh great now the orcas gonna jump in the boat to and that would have been a problem and they cruise for a while the little bird calm down and eventually he plunged back in you know. What is this little penguin thinking. It's it's in this little small boat surrounded by all these human beings thinking. Okay goes away from the orcas stuck with these creatures. What are they kind of. Looked calm but it must have been a nervous wreck. Yeah i think The poor poor penguin must've been nervous. But i think also you know the people were very respectful with this little guy. When the video the i saw people were not reaching out to try to pet him or awesome they bite. I'll tell you penguins really by. I went to the first international conference on penguins and new zealand. You should see scars on these people's arms so it's it's wise to stay away from. I mean i love paying was totally great but it got really sharp little beaks topic from sorry good margaret. No go ahead you by the way we're having the issue here is martin talking over each other's because we can't see each other because we have technical problems which will get fixed for tomorrow so our apologies first of all. If you haven't seen this video. And i assume everybody has if you just google something. Like penguin jumps into boat. It comes up immediately. You know a minute ago. Sign when. I said how to cuttlefish know how to do this. You pause for a minute and you said well. They have a brain gym. I accept that. I'm going to ask the same stupid question again. I understand if a penguin has had experience. And they know that. If i'm chased by an orca whale that if i get to land i'm probably gonna live in not get eaten at least for today. How does a penguin know that. A place about in this case an inflatable with human beings with which it has. I assume no familiarity is a safe harbor. And how did it know that well. I'm sure they see of these inflatable zodiacs floating around all the time and they would jump onto an iceberg. They would jump onto you. Know floating bath mat. They would jump on anything to get away from the jaws of the orca but animals are often observing us very carefully. They like observing us and they may have you know he may have had some knowledge about people not seeing any of the people eat the penguins for awhile. Other animals do that too. If this is a great way to lose a lot of time but there's another video of a cr who jumps into a boat to escape orcas yes. I haven't seen that yet. But believe me i will before the day is over. And what was that. I mean how does the sea otter fit in the boat. Oh they're not that huge you know It's and it was a different kind of. I think it was a different kind of boat. But there's there's room. I mean goodness and if you're being chased by an orca just about anything is going to be better than that and be the or k. Is not going to jump into a boat. Why not. I don't i don't think so. He wouldn't fit. They will however jump onto land and they do attempting to eat things like seals they do come into land. So it's you know i. It wasn't insane for that person to make the joke about. You know next thing you know the orcas going to jump into the boat But probably probably not. I don't understand why they don't all rise up in a radically eight people. You know when you consider what we've done to the ocean you're on. Hey you bet. You don't think about when i think of you often. I mean because you relate obviously to non human animal animal's differently than virtually anybody which nobody has praised not by the way just saw the water jump into the boat. It is also believable. Only not quite as great as the penguin bouncing off the boat and then jumping back in the second time. When i see a when i saw the orcas chasing the penguin and i obviously knew because of the title of the video that he wasn't going to get eaten i was okay but otherwise i would have been really uncomfortable Ura circle life kind of person. Are you okay when you mostly. I assume in person unlike those of us who live video. See a penguin eaten by an orca or a or a lion eating hyena. Or whatever you just nod and say. That's that's the way it is does that. How do you how you thanked him so hard. It's so hard whenever you see somebody frightened or in pain of any species and there are but you're also aware you know the poor orca could have a cast and you know the lion may have a cub. And what's while is if you if you watch a lot of national geographic type specials and bbc and things like that depending on if if the show is about the hyena or about the lion you know. Get that antelope. Oh thank goodness now. The cubs will survive. But if it's about an antelope you're like run little antelope run so hard to look at a penguin and not think of the guy that took you to the high school prom. You know little i. Don't they walk around just like little people and did you see the latest thing by the way that shedd aquarium did for in for entertaining. It's penguins they tell us about. I did read about tell us about it. So sweet well you know the penguins kind of miss seeing people because we're entertaining and they like to watch us so at at the chicago him. They yeah in chicago. They've been taking them on field trips literally they took. They took him to the field museum once. They took them to their aquariums theater. They took them to other places in the aquarium which they thought was great. Because what does it mean would wanna see fish and then of a sudden there's always but the latest was. They took four of their melege alantic penguins to the new tourist attraction the set of friends. Tv show like people wandering around on the tv set you know except for one jumped up and stood on the coffee table which may be a person wouldn't do otherwise they they you know they're just walking around with interest you know their little. The little flippers held out to their side. Walking upright looking things with the parents address. They're just so great. It's hard not to imagine them. Just like when i read about that Recently i think which found pretty interesting is the reason they do. That is because i guess all animals. I don't know like variety. And i guess because they'd been sort lockdown during the pandemic the feeling was. Give them a little ryan. Was that the reason for something to do. Give them something to want. Yeah get bored. They get bored just like we do. And that's the major problem. I think for animals in zoos. The big thing that an a query to that keepers need to combat is to make sure they're not bored and there's whole big programs golden richmond in which you give them something to do and chimpanzees. Interestingly are enjoying the very thing we're sick of zoom meetings they like to have zoom meetings with other chimpanzees and with other people. Other animals like like octopus. As you know they like to play with the same toys r. children enjoy. They like to play with mr potato head. They like to play with legos. They do they. they'll take him apart. Absolutely absolutely your potato head to you not mr potato head montgomery speaking you'll we're gonna do. Let's talk about the octopus. Take a break and come back and discuss some of these on land stories but obviously marjorie go ahead. Well just that they have like ram sleep. I guess they have active and they tell us about how they sweep. They seem to have a leap states similar to our rapid eye movement sleep. Yeah which makes complete sense For the longest time aristotle observed in his writings that dogs and oxen and many sheep and goat. They said they sleep at end. They dream but for a long time. Modern thinkers denied this and it was only in the sixties that our own rim sleep was discovered the time when when our dreams happen and all all kinds of experiments have been done to to show you know. It appears to be important in consolidating them Memory and one way that we know that animals are dreaming is Cats for example This horrible experiment. They remove the ponds from the brains of cats and the nineteen sixties and notice. The cats would then act out their dreams. They would just walk around and do the stuff that they were dreaming normally. You're you have sleep paralysis. Your power lies which prevents you from acting out your james which would be dangerous. So that's what you don't. And i also think that's probably why we feel like we wanna run and we can't often in our dreams. It's because we have sleep paralysis but anyway in two thousand seven there was the study Mit researchers recovered the brain. They recorded the brain activity of of rats in a maze and they could find because neurons fire and very distinct patterns while doing a particular task they could watch rats sleep and see clearly where the rat was in the maze during its dream because the neurons wood fire in exactly those patterns so we're learning more and more about ram sleet now a couple of years ago. There was a wonderful show featuring my friend david she'll and it was called making contact and he had a pet home octopus named heidi and she was turned white. She was sleeping and then saw changing color on screen. A lot of people saw office and david said well looks to me like she's dreaming. Well now we know she was streaming. And i know isn't this like socal and you wonder why they dream about all the. It's not that hard to guess they. There is moved like ours. Do they change color. This particular one. This is Opt was insularity brazilian species. They did this with four animals. They changed their color from white when their first asleep. Which is kind of the stage of sleep where nothing's going on the active stage when they were turning off orange brown and they had spots and this and that and then they had a phase that they would change color on one side and not on the other and then the other one would change color and the opposite side would go back and they're not sure what that is thinking. It's similar to the union hemispheric. Slow wave sleep that dolphins do in which one side of the brain sleeps in. The other doesn't which i know. Is this trying to sign. Montgomery journalists natural contributor gonna keep talking with fracas into eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. The boston public radio. I'm jim brady if marjorie sounds odd. Not your radio. She is on a phone. We're having technical difficulties. They'll be fixed by tomorrow. Joining us continuing to join us assign montgomery journalists naturalists. Bbr contributor latest book is becoming a creature in light of the discussion. We had just before the break. Wish say another one. Great books which i love is sullivan octopus. You should check that out as well. So startling gumri. This story is amazing to me. This stray dog down in north carolina kept going back to a dollar general over and over steel. The stuffed animal unicorn and then they show the dog like sleeping with its head on the unicorn with dog. Didn't have a home is in the kennel. But what's what's going on here I just loved that story. He went into the dollar general store the same store five times and every time he went to steal the same toy this purple stuffed unicorn with a red horn. He clearly wanted that toy. And after the fifth attempt the store finally called the county animal control officer who came but she mmediately spent the ten dollars to buy the toy for the guy walk this one year old lab mix back to the shelter and posted and it went viral It's so always such a sweetheart. They named the dogs What are they name. I think sis after some disney cartoon dragon and he never let the toy out of his reach the whole time and you know like you said he was laying as his chin on it and he told his front legs and he snug with it and he carried it around and funny thing. What's this dog was in good shape And he could sit and stay. He was a well behaved dog. I you just wonder what happened to his people and you wonder if there was a toy just like this in his old house thinking about what attracted him to that and the boy that makes a hell of a lot of sense montgomery that there is an historical connection to something or maybe just live with a unicorn. That's another possible speaking of dogs in the remaining few minutes. I'm sorry just wonder if it has to do with loneliness. The dark did this. Oh yeah. I'm sure but you know when you're when you're missing your home often what you do. Is you pick something from home with picture of your under a token of something and you hold onto it or you smell it. You take an article of clothing or something and you. You smell it. Well i really wonder. What's lovely though. Is that the dollar. Did donate a bunch of the same unicorn to the people who adopted this dog and also launched on shelter in a gift for the animal control officer so have a couple of minutes left and we stay in the dog world for a second dog while i'm sure you would actually world or the snake world with the octopus. Were do actually what. What are your reflections on it. So i know you agree that there's a dog owner back in the white house. The prior occupant as as our one of our congresspeople from boston refers to him as did not have a dog. Which i think says lot on history. But we'll leave that for the moment a major one of the to rescue dog or by knows. I'm sure by now. One of the two dogs owned by the biden's Had one biting or nipping incident got sent home. And i don't know if this is true or not. They subsequently said no no no was supposed to be sent home anyway for those few days. It got some training help. It's acclimating itself to the white house than so many new people. And unfortunately it did a nipping as they call it. Otherwise known as biting incident a second. Well what what did you think when you read those stories. I montgomery well. My was everything that i read said that there was no injury. There was no blood. It was less than a paper cut because there was apparently no blood now a lot of times dogs do an air snap. they do a warning And i just keep thinking about poor major huge change. He's had from home at every time he turns around. A crowd of people is coming towards his person and not only are they all unfamiliar and appearing. God knows you know at any moment. But they're all wearing masks with means. The dog can read your expression. I think he feels defensive. And i think that you know. I've been bitten by a number of things. It was never their fault. It was always something stupid. That i did. I've been bitten badly by pigs by these giant. Fish marijuana's i was bitten by a giant folder once And and that was those were bloody dirty bites but what major did was almost nothing and you know you think of the sound of music that song my favorite things. They say win the dog bites. Not if the dog by people are going to be bitten. I looked up how often americans are bitten by other people. And you wouldn't believe it. But forty two thousand americans went to the er and twenty twelve for bites from other people and these symptoms dealing urgency room. Yeah it's it's way more than bites from venomous snakes way more than bites from non venomous reptiles and rats and birds and wildlife. Now dogs do lead the list. But there's an awful lot of them doing one major side. I think it's a minor problem. We should send all his forty thousand people back to delaware. That's my position i signed. Montgomery it's wonderful to talk to you as always thank you so much for your time. Great talking with you to hang out you marjorie back on the phone. Yeah yes sorry about helping conch out during this anyway sean. Mcdumber as a journalist natural. Dpi contributed her. Latest book is becoming a good creature. thanks again size. She joins us every month for afternoon. Zoo coming up. Yeah actually coming because we're done. Thank you very much listening to boston. Public radio tomorrow. We're going to be joined by andrew. Brawl chuck todd meet the press and the great environmentalist. Bill mckibben can't talk to him about five plans. Wanna take our crew chelsea mirrors matthews yooglie in comic. Because he is our engineer. Is john the clock parker off by engineers amass smith and dave go see what is on television. Jim bratty or i want to say marjorie. We'll be joining us from a mine in west virginia tomorrow. Look forward to to that. We're gonna talk. We've talked a lot on the show about the equity issues in terms of vaccinations with african americans is really bad with latinos particularly well. Not just here everywhere. The head of the mass immigration immigrant and refugee advocacy coalition lawyers for civil rights leaders of those two than and talk Join me talk about it. And then jesse. Murmell and chris dempsey. You're gonna join me to talk about the huge news of the day. Which is what this infrastructure package and accompanying tax plan means for the people of our region. So that's nice. It's seven o'clock on greater boston. Annika jank thanks great. Show thank you for listening to tune in tomorrow. I thought i was gone again. It was a great show cheddar. Who on mercury here in the netherlands. Tomorrow i hope five.

biden boston john basit united states jim amore mckim school of business president biden Workers governor baker massachusetts marjorie jim marjorie Jonathan gruber Wyden John gruber
Staffing CEO Sees Unemployment Maxing Out At 13-15%

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

29:33 min | 1 year ago

Staffing CEO Sees Unemployment Maxing Out At 13-15%

"Why settle for seven percent returns from your 401k? Whether you're an experienced investor or new to the game the Motley fool wants to help you find great stocks. That's why they've created a report on a group of five stock picks for the next generation of investors. And it's free for all listeners at full dot com slash the number five stocks. Welcome to the Bloomberg podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney along with my co-host this Abramowicz each day. We bring you the most noteworthy in useful interviews for you and your money whether at the grocery store or the trading floor find Bloomberg pl. Podcast ON APPLE PODCASTS. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. As well as at Bloomberg Dot Com while. Us payrolls fell seven hundred one thousand in March just extraordinary. The unemployment rate job jumped to four point. Four percent the highest level since two thousand seventeen. We had those jobless claims yesterday. Six point six five million so the jobs numbers the employment situation in this country deteriorating just extraordinarily rapidly to get a sense of kind of how bad it could get. We welcome Tom Kimball. Ceo of global staffing. Company Lasalle Network. So Tom thanks so much for joining us. Let's start right there. How bad you think this is going to get on the jobs front. Well I think it's GONNA get bad. But the numbers that the government reports aren't going to be that applicable. Because you're going to see if you see. The jobless claims come in at such a high number then. The unemployment claims come in at under a billion hard to believe. I'm saying that's not the mystic thing but then with the PD program. You're going to see that in the unemployment claims go down because these people that filed will be back on their employer's payroll for the companies. That gets that money and then we'll see a higher unemployment number when traditional non restaurant non hospitality companies have to let people go and those people file so. I think the main June numbers are going to be a lot different than than what we're seeing and it's really not accurate read on what's going on time. I think that everyone agrees on that. Nobody can put too much faith into the actual number however they did try to dig in to get some signs of how the economy was doing before the real shutdown began in the United States. I was really looking forward to speaking with you in particular because you've been particularly optimistic about a lot of the dark clouds for a long time. And I'm wondering based on the fact that we saw companies freeze hiring before even the US economy shutdown in earnest and the true pain began you revising some of that optimism. Well I mean this is GonNa go yes. My whole perspective is changed mentally based on this and I think we're going to be in a in a bad place economically for probably longer than a lot of economists are saying is what from what I'm seeing and and and what. I believe to have happened now. What I think was going on with some companies prior to the shutdown was. There's always a little bit of paranoia of are we in the last innings of the ball game and that was coming on and there was also the fear that while it hadn't hit America before the shutdown we had seen what was going on in China and there was a precursor to that so there were some bigger companies that really saw a little bit of the writing on the wall and started to prepare for but I was extremely bought most of the companies. I talked to their first quarter numbers. Were really really good in going into March and so now but with this we're going to see an extended period. What's really going to happen that I'm quite certain of is a cash crunch coming in Q. Three and maybe even into four so companies. That are still spending right now to an extent. They're not gonNA be paying these bills for three four five six months and that's going to hurt some small and medium size company. So Tom just thinking a little bit forward. Where do you think unemployment rate? The real unemployment rate in this country will will go over the next couple of quarters. There's no doubt that it'll be double digits. The question is can it hold at fifteen percent twelve to fifteen percent or is he going to get to twenty? I think the estimates thirty percent are very high and a little bit? The Sky's is falling. I don't see that happening. I from what we've seen in in China that The rebounding of that and then while spending may not come back as fast as we'd like The consumer Programs that we've set off the government has with DP and the the rebate checks. I think that it will come back. And I think at Max's I'll probably around thirteen to fifteen percent Tom. You said you thought that the The pain would be felt for a lot longer than many economists. Even think how long will it take now? My guess is that we're looking. I mean for a real think about this in two thousand nineteen where people saying we were still in a recovery from two thousand and eight so this is is while it's it's much faster and everything's happening at once so there's a belief that it'll come back faster. My guess is we're looking at at late. Twenty twenty one early twenty twenty. Two were really feels quite quote unquote normal from standpoint of hotels and travel in restaurants and and then traditional corporations hiring. It's going to be a little bit of a of a long walk so give us a sense of kind of we've seen obviously from some of the restaurant industry. Some of the travel industry is. Where do you think the next industries that are going to be at risk for significant job losses? Well my my take on that. Is You really? Don't know however what I think's GonNa start happening is and this'll be an interesting thing to see through the big payroll companies the ADP's in the paychecks. Because companies lay people off they're not processing payroll For the same numbers and the way payroll companies get paid under traditional lines of business. How many checks? They process the period. So it's those numbers dip. You'll see that it's starting to affect the technology and software companies and then you have software user. Life is like a sales force or linked in in these companies while huge and can withstand a setback in the economy. They get paid on a per user license. And there's contracts that companies signed but if you start to see that employees Companies lay off employees. Anything that's build out to their vendors on a per user basis like software like payroll. You're going to see those get hit as well so I think it's GonNa come into areas that a lot of people aren't even talking about you tumble thank you so much for being with us and I hope you do come back and give us a sense of the progress being made and update us on your views. Tom Kimball is chief executive officer of the Global Staffing Company Lasalle Network. Pope a mystery listener mayday suggestion to miss. Recently that we have a bad joke of the day brand that during this period of time everybody needs a little bit of levity and he had his suggestion for one. Okay so we're going to start this and it is why can't a no B twelve inches long? Why because then it would be a foot okay so if you can do better let's start this though and if anyone wants to write in suggestions you can you can email me l. Abramowicz at Bloomberg Dot net. And let's do this. Let's have Jag joke of the day throughout this whole period because everybody Kinda needs a little bit of a break because it's only going to get worse when we look at the numbers and there's a lot of gloom and doom. I'm Lisa Abramowicz along with Paul Sweeney and this is Bloomberg markets. I keep hearing reports about how the hospitals are completely overwhelmed. Nurses and doctors working around the clock having to buy all this additional equipment having to pay for hundreds of thousands of new patients coming through their doors for extensive hospital stays on ventilators. All very high cost. And there's a question who's going to pay for it done Dr. Jonathan Gruber is professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He was one of the key architects of Obamacare and Romney Care and he joins us now from Cambridge Massachusetts. Dr Grouper thank you so much for being with us. How big of a cost do you expect this to be for the healthcare system? Do we have any ballpark figures at all? Yeah it's it's a great question so there's sort of two ways to think about it one way is. How big is the cost of cove? Nineteen and here I've seen estimates ranging from one hundred billion to five hundred billion A hundred billion would be fairly manageable absorbed. Five hundred billion would not But that's not really the right number. The right number is what is the net effect which accounts this actor. Losing a lot of other business. So there's a lot of of places that are a lot of services aren't being delivered in particular elective surgery so figuring out the effect and healthcare sectors. Actually be complicated because on the there's being scissored on the one hand they're increased demand for this Kobe. Nineteen services it's going to cost a lot of money on the other hand. They are being They're losing all their sort of elective surgery. Business Professor Okay. So one hundred billion to five hundred billion who at the end of the day pays for that is that part of some federal fiscal stimulus. That goes to the healthcare system directly No a lot of it's GONNA be private insurers So basically once again. The the scissors is exactly the opposite for private insurance. So to the extent that The elective surgery. That doesn't happen. Never happens. Then that hurts providers but helps private insurers to the extent that there's more cope in nineteen cases. Most of those people will have private insurance and so that hurts private insurance that helps writer because they're not getting paid for that So I think really a lot of the costs are GonNa come from the government Medicare Medicaid Program But really PRI- private insurance with the primary payer and then finally we have the uninsured Rapidly increasing number with the huge job. Loss numbers we've seen and there the question is who's going to pay for them and we haven't resolved that yet and I'm wondering do we have a sense of how organized. The effort is to try to coordinate payments and not necessarily create a complete mess of bills and and bankruptcies personal bankruptcies is people. Try to grapple with the new reality after a visit to the hospital. Here you know I. I think there's a huge issue and there's a huge coordination issue because remember a lot of our private health insurance is built around restricted networks. In the last thing you want to restrict where someone can go you want them to go to. The hospital has a space for them. Then you've got the fact that many people have high cost sharing deductibles and things where they haven't spent much healthcare yet this year. So they're gonNA hit with their full deductibles and then you've got the fact that many American twenty million Americans and growing around insured so I. I think we have a big problem. I think the federal government isn't taking it very seriously as far as I can tell When they've been pushed on it They've just said well we'll just divert. The latest is a president trump's announced he's GonNa divert some of the hundred billion dollar fund for hospitals into helping care for the uninsured. Which is the last thing we need cause the hospital need that money so I think we need we. We urgently need much more action on feeling with these uncovered healthcare cost. So does that bring back some type of formal care act? Do you believe he thinks there's political will there for that. Well I think you'll foldable care. Act was actually designed for situations like this remember. The whole idea. Is that our you know. Our reliance employer sponsored insurance is a little fragile to situations like this and fortunately The photo character set up exchanges. That people will be able to go to if they lose their jobs. And so I. I think we're well prepared for that In terms of having an exchange that should make people appreciate the fact affordable care act. Is there That said Many people Still can't afford insurance on the exchanges. So we're going to have to take what we're GONNA do for them And many people are also if they have Private Insurance They might not want to exchange insurance. They want to keep their employer insurance. They can do so by buying Cobra. But that's quite expensive. Dr Gruber if if you would could we walk through? A scenario in which the exchanges aren't reopened and Obamacare is not expanded and there is no sort of reduction in with respect to a widening of the of the healthcare safety net. What happens especially to the hospitals if you have an increase in uninsured of newly laid off people without their Their corporate insurance coming to emergency rooms for primary care. What does that do to the hospitals? Okay so so let's let's Let's be clear about this so when we talk about the ACA did their pieces. There's the Medicaid expansions which means that everyone losing their job in thirty in thirty five states. Everyone losing their job. Who's falling to be very poor? We'll have free public coverage in the other states. They're totally out of luck. Unfortunately so one thing we can do is we can try to get those recalcitrant states to actually serve the interests of the residents rather than nasty politics and actually stand their medicaid programs in terms of the exchanges. There's no issue reopen the exchanges exchanges actually have a provision that. If you lose your job you can sign up. So this is the. There's a bit of a this kind of idea of a special. Here's a bit of a red herring For people lose their job that's called the qualifying. Then they can always sign up for the exchanges so the exchanges are there for people. That said You know states. That haven't expanded Medicaid and people who don't go on the exchanges will be uninsured and we're going to have to deal with the fact that hospitals are going to have to are going to be unable to eat those bills and so part of part of the hospital bail out fund is designed to help with that. But it's not enough money and we're going to have to really have a new initiative either expanding access to these exchanges for people or You could think about a federal uncompensated care pool the nature of the type that other states that some states have where we basically absorb the uncompensated care costs of hospitals for Kobe. Nineteen patients right. I need some kind of initiative of that type. Jonathan Gruber thanks so much for joining us. Given that color on the healthcare system as it grapples with the crown of ours Jonathan Gruber professor of economics. At 'em I just really interesting stuff. It's a big issue. I gotTa say Paul I mean I'm struck by all of these needs. And they're all so important and they're all so expensive and really. My question is just going forward. How all of these different needs are gonna be prioritized at a time of crisis and when there isn't necessarily the economic tobacco Yep and the states are dealing with at the federal government's dealing with it And individuals are dealing with it. Investing can be confusing especially with ticker symbols and charts flying back and forth like it's the runway at lax whether you're inexperienced investor or new to the game. The Motley fool wants to help you find great stocks. They give you straight talk without the fancy jargon and noise. Their Flagship Service Stock Advisor provides to brand new stock recommendations. Every month with daily analysis and coverage sent directly to your inbox go to full dot com slash five stocks to learn more and claiming exclusive discount only for listeners. That's full dot com slash the number five stocks. We've been listening to Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York talking about the latest from New York State. Which is the epicenter. With the number of cases crossing the one hundred thousand level he talked about the dire shortage of equipment and the need for it and the idea that the state will take Ventilators and other gear from businesses. That do not need it right now. They will either return it or compensate those businesses for those items later also. He was talking about the apex coming very quickly. And how all the hospitals here are now. Essentially Kovic Nineteen hospitals at. The javits center was going to be entirely a covert nineteen facility as the US tries to battle the epicenter of the crisis which is at the moment in New York saying that people are getting together volunteering that there are hundreds of healthcare professionals coming to the city to volunteer their efforts in the city. New York City is the predominant majority of the cases. Currently Paul really really dire situation that he talks about four healthcare workers in the hospitals and laying. It out is he becomes the spokesman for the crisis right now in the United States. He really has been his at these daily briefings up. You can kind of must listen to watch to get information to get a sense of how this is really playing out Down on the front lines and talking about an interesting concept Lisa about we need the equipment we being New York State. Need the equipment. Now when we're done with it and we will be done with it. Probably first then we will deploy redeploy the resources including personnel to other parts of the country. So interesting concept about national response. Yeah and a real focus on equipment and making equipment telling even small businesses if you could have cloth and put the strings on the sides you can make a mass. You can make some medical gear do it. We will compensate you for it is a business opportunity and you would think it was a business opportunity for three and one of the biggest manufacturers of a lot of items including things like face masks and yet. They're husband controversy over their efforts. I WANNA bring in Karen. You will hard. Who covers all things industrials for us at Bloomberg intelligence can? Can you just lay out? What the controversy is around this company? you know The president is saying that a they didn't They drag defeat and ramping up. Production number two they're sending Product to other countries and three that. They're not doing enough to fight the price gouging. That's going on in the in. The you know personal smart market And NUMBER ONE. They've doubled production in Since since January in the US Production they're doubling it again Over the next several months One of the problems is a lot of this. Production doesn't the masks are not that many are made here A lot of them are made overseas and a lot of the COUN- countries have been holding the mask for themselves Honeywell barely makes any masks in the US. They largely import everything. J. D. A. Three M makes about a third of their masks here. But it's not enough so it's You know it's hard to say And on the price gouging they have stepped in front of that and they've been Trying to fight that. Who knows if they did it quickly? Enough it's hard to know so I mean. Is there an opportunity? Is there an ability from some of these companies? These manufacturers like three M to significantly ramp up production and really make a difference in the near term as governor Cuomo so earnestly ask for I think collectively It could matter like honeywell just now Re purposed a plant in Phoenix. To make some ask than the US because most of them don't come from here but it cannot happen overnight and there's a supply chain impact as well. There's there's shortages of certain product Parts that go into the production of these mass and the production of the ventilators. I mean I I read an article. Where Phillips said it's six hundred and fifty parts go in components go into ventilators which is more sophisticated than the respirators but nonetheless. That's a lot of parts to round up and roundup overnight you know. Companies typically take time to ramp up And everybody's scrambling to get up as quickly as possible but it cannot happen. And that's the issue I would think. Though that with the masks it would be a lot easier. Or why can't there be a more domestic supply chain if there is an issue of importing? Some of the parts. Well they do have they do have to. Reply are type. A lot but a lot of a lot of components for a lot of like I cover H. Back a lot of the components he comes from someplace else We have really. I don't WanNa say decimated are Domestic supply chain but we certainly shrunk it and I think people started with the tariffs we've seen companies Change you know make alterations in their supply chain to have more product locally but that is a structural change of takes time You know Day Day three and the other thing is three m said ninety percent of their masks go went to industrial and the reason is that you know they have all these requirements health requirements and Osha requirements. You could not use industrial masks which was ninety percent of the US production for healthcare. You now you can. They there was a mother as Asian that allow them to do that but only ten percent. What they made here went into healthcare. So you know. Ten percent of sixteen million is not even enough for you. Know two weeks in New York so It it will happen. It is happening. It can't happen overnight and now that they will have all the supply chain prioritized towards them. And you know Which is another step that the government is taking that anything in the supply chain is also going to be under the GPA. So that all the neat so that more of the needed components etc And a lot of it's like chemical polypropylene stuff like that can get to the manufacturers of these mass. Very quickly note. That honeywell isn't getting banged at all and honeywell. Does he produced many here. Just so how. How is how is three? M responded to some of the tax from the administration. Well you know I know. This management micro Roman is a pretty you know Even and level headed guy much more low key than the prior CEO. But he's come out as well as he can winning and you know if you hear some of his commentary you know it's worded very diplomatically. And the release is but you know on on TV today. He says the claims are completely solved. that we're not doing enough. We're killing ourselves to get this production up and the price gouging thing. We've been very vocal on how we're trying to find that But a lot of the distribution a lot of mass go through distribution particularly industrial mask go to distribution and then they can go anywhere so they have to take control of that that everything that comes from them they know where it's going you can't just go to distributors this one and all of its being reallocated to healthcare anyway the distribution was largely distribution part was through the industrial chain and a lot of us being re jittered to go to healthcare. So I mean he's pushing back and you know there are cost benefits of doing that. You know so. Maybe 'cause Honeywell's laying low you know they're being left alone. I Dunno count. Thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate that countable heart. She covers all things industrials for Bloomberg Intelligence. The research arm of Bloomberg and looking at three M right now. The stock is down about two point. Two Percent Today Dan about twenty three percent year to date so interesting time for a lot of these companies as they try to Scramble Lisa. And it doesn't help to get pressure from public pressure from the president via twitter so but we'll see a company's revamping rejigging trying to react as aggressively as they can and that includes some of those industrial companies like three. M. And honeywell that Karen just mentioned. I'm so pleased to say we are joined by Tim. O'brien a senior columnist for Bloomberg opinion. Joining us after a hiatus. Thank you so much for being with US him. You wrote a column by thought was fascinating looking. At the fate of small businesses following the Krona Virus. Shutdowns a pretty dismal assessment. Why do you think so? Many small businesses don't have a chance of coming back after this whole thing is over. Well you know you know the stimulus plan right now. Lisa essentially envisions getting them across a bridge for the next two months. Or so it's a meaningful amount of money you know. It's a two trillion dollar package. Three hundred and fifty billion that is four small businesses. Small businesses employ. The lion's share of American workers They contribute a huge portion To annual GDP nearly half But the reality is as as mammoth as this bill is and as well intentioned as aid is it may end up being just a gigantic band aid and I think the things that small businesses policymakers and Americans have to come to terms with is this is probably just phase. One and W- you know. Is it being engineered regardless of that in a way that actually puts small businesses on their feet for the long term So I think that's the first issue the second issue is. How's IT GOING TO BE ADMINISTERED? And there's already a lot of signs that the Treasury Department has not given banks clear signals standards around Lending the money out and handling applications. The banks are complaining about it. Small businesses are already wary of it and it could end up being a bit of a train wreck. If it's not managed. Well all right. So Tim so again. What are the key issues is to get capital into some of these small businesses? How much how? Much reserves does a typical small business have it. I just don't think it's that much. It is not even Paul. You know even in the best of times running a small business. Perilous Endeavor They you know. The failure rate is always high because small businesses a risky but even for establish small businesses. That have been in business for a while. They rarely have enough cash on hand to cover more than a few months of payroll and operating expenses. Payrolls usually the biggest piece which is why A large portion of this of this three hundred and fifty billion targeted payroll costs So you know I. It's it's going to be extremely tricky and And we'll have to give it a little time to roll out but Steve Mnuchin this week touted Watch of the program today to help small businesses which is today And there's again already signs that it's hard to get this. You know the blood flowing around this. We have to give it a little tiny. Wait and see but it's you know it's going to be tricky and and the thing about small businesses to is it. They're very tied up people's hopes and dreams small business owners. You know run companies all of our that give a lot of character and flavor to the life of the town and and they tend to very deeply personal connections to their business and the the poignant and sort of tragic piece of all this beyond the economic impact is the loss of all those hopes and dreams to Tim. I have to wonder you know there is sort of the program and we have heard about the unclarity around exactly the interest rate and how banks are exactly going to make these eligible for a guarantee by the government. There are all sorts of questions in the roll out of this but putting that aside. They're also is the question of the transformation. The economy stemming from the krona viruses a fact a move toward Amazon in particular and. I'm wondering how much that will accelerate this beyond any kind of financial program that the Congress could pass tastic question. You know President trump is referring to himself as a wartime president. There's been a lot of talk about this. Whole event the financial and public health the epic sides of all this this is a like a a wartime moment and we know historically that that society changes immensely before and after any wars happened before and after World War One and World War Two. I think the thing you're putting your finger on right now is I don't see how inevitably digital commerce and and distance commerce Don't come out of this even more triumphant than they were before the virus took off brick and mortar retailers. Were Having Long. Standing troubles competing. You know macy's Furloughed one hundred thirty thousand the majority of one hundred of its one hundred thirty thousand workers earlier this week Because they're having had had trouble competing before the virus and they may never really be competitive again so I do think you're GonNa see this epic transformation and the way. The business is conducted and how consumers interact with businesses a ten. Thanks so much for joining us really appreciate you coming on the program. Good to have you back a Tim. O'brien senior columnist for Bloomberg opinion. His Column Three Hundred Fifty Billion Dollars won't save US small businesses suggesting Lisa that perhaps needs to be even more needs to be more direct But even that Small businesses unfortunately are going to be in for a very tough road ahead over the next several months. We already saw that with the claims that we got yesterday. I mean we'll only see more of it right but we got a sense that basically if you can't have keep the lights on then you fold. And there isn't much by way of resources to keep things going or diversification and the question is just from my perspective. How quickly can things get? Ramped up and will they ever return? Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg. Pnl podcast you can subscribe and listen to interviews at apple podcasts. Or whatever podcast platform you prefer on Paul Sweeney. I'm on twitter at P. T. Sweeney and Lisa Abramowicz. I'M ON TWITTER AT LISA. Abramowicz one before the podcast. You can always catch US worldwide on Bloomberg radio.

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Getting your clients and scaling with Johnathan Grzybowski

Startup Sales

44:51 min | 1 year ago

Getting your clients and scaling with Johnathan Grzybowski

"Hey everybody welcome to another week of startup sales today we have a great guest. Jonathan Gruber Bosque. He is the founder of a company. See that he really puts his employees I and he really stands behind that. So we're GonNa talk about putting your employees I today and not include training and everything. He's also done a lot of Outbound prospecting and gotten sent out thousands of emails and has hundreds of clients because of this and so he's going to discuss how to do outbound prospecting and how to get the great email customization and also speak to your potential buyers before actually trying to sell them so it's a really great episode. I think think you'll get a lot out of it and if you're an early stage startup and you're looking to get your first clients. I've put together really great Little PDF for you you you can go to a startup sales and download it. It's called how to win your first clients so startup sales dot. Io and you'll see it there on the homepage. Let's get today's episode startup. Sales is a podcast about what it's really like to get business off the ground. We talk with founders CEO's and sales VP's from the high tech market. You'll learn how to build and scale a sales team. You'll also hear about the growth challenges and tough decisions from from others who have had both successes and failures and now your host the startup sales podcast Adams Springer. Hey Jonathan thanks for joining us. Thank so much for the opportunity to really appreciate. Yeah I'm excited to have you here Can you tell everybody. That's listening in a little bit about your background in your current company. Things like that. Yeah Yeah I'd say Only had one real job my entire life. I've had the I guess the Bug the DNA as an entrepreneur since fourteen Peggy is an on demand. Graphic design service started about three years or so ago and within that three a your time period. We've been able to grow the business from zero literally zero two two over two point five million and inc five thousand recipient In again under that three year period so sales Growth trial or is a constant sending that we are thinking about in the constant thing that we're doing so the reason why people should listen to this. podcast in particular is just because of that growth period that explosive explosive growth. In how we been able to do it okay and before that you said you had one real job. What was that I worked for Apple. I worked for apple and work apple for about five years or so five six years Learned a lot about company. Culture learned a lot about management. But you know just one of those things. Where if you're an entrepreneur in my opinion it's just something that is you're constantly thinking talking about? You're constantly moving towards regardless and I just gravitated towards marketing gravitated towards graphic design. Things like that so yeah interesting what one one takeaway would you say is the most important you learnt from Apple Just the importance of the people. You know I think one of the people meaning employees or customers employees. Yeah so there's a credo. That apple has an assist something on lines of our our most important resource. Our souls are people and I think that mantra has carried over to us through Benji because we we kind of treat the same we kind of have the same philosophy as are our most important resource. Is the people that we That we employ and if they're not happy if we don't take care of them we don't believe in their vision there what why what their purposes than. They're not going to believe in. They're not going to work as hard as they possibly can. In order for us to obtain hours so That was probably the most important thing I've learned. It's a fantastic. So how how. What Effects Effects Have you seen that like? You could actually clarify and speak about that has happened in your own business because of this From from from the standpoint of disbelieving people yeah and it way that you treat them yeah so when we begin hiring hiring process we always ask one question. The question is What is your dream in? A second question is how can we help you get there and a lot of time. Some people don't necessarily have an answer. Sir like a well-thought-out answer 'cause they don't know the the question is coming But will be found. Is that when people have a very well thought out answer that they usually a good cultural fit fit in and what we do is once we understand exactly what their dreams are and what. They're what they're they're they're moving towards Then we know how to handle the the the employees we know how to handle the team member In order to we understand their purpose. So once you understand. Somebody's goal emission in purpose that is Zizou to have conversations is easier to know what what makes them happy so some people can say. Well you know I wanna I wanNA make a million dollars a year okay. Well you know you may not necessarily be able to make a million dollars a year at Benji. But maybe we can help you create a supplemental income or may we. We can sit down with you for an hour or so. In order to give strategy sessions in order to grow your side business So those small little things they go a long way and they build trust within the within the team member and also the organization. There's a quote I can't remember who said it but like it's like what happens if you invest in your your employees and they leave. It's the opposite. Is What happens if you don't invest in your employees in this day. I think I what I find is when employees leave is because of the lack of trust that they have within the organization organization It could just be time to go to so there's other factors but I find that a lot of people start to look for jobs immediately upon getting hired for us us. Our turnover is extremely low. We've we've only had people leave our organization due to a personal health health issue In in even then it's rare. They usually come back so with that being said A. Ah That's something I'm incredibly proud of even more so than just the the growth in sales side of the company but fantastic. So let's let's jump into the sales side because you said that you have two point. Five million clients or revenue revenue. Okay Okay and in three according to INC by the way so you can just like you could look it up People that will not you but you the people that are listening you can look it up vinick. You can see all the financials and stuff like that. Okay how did that come to the got into ink Well I think it's like the from the statistics standpoint. I think it's It's harder to get into like oh Targeted to get ink than it is to get into like gail or Harvard or something like that. The statistics are really high or really low in order to get How we got into it? I think number one. We have a really good story. I think we have a really good business model in a thing. Just the financial speak for themselves. So I think it's when you sign up for it you have to. You get asked like a ton of questions nations like what's your story. What's your background Our story in background very briefly. More so like we're not just a we're not just a service based business. Graphic design. Business were a business that also is community conscious so we offer our services for Extremely highly discounted accounted To nonprofits in in the country and we have a program that offers our services for about twenty nonprofits a year where we get our services services for free so we help our community. We try our best to help our community And I think a lot of people especially in our geographic region Resonate at that very well. Okay so let's let's go back to the two and a half million in revenue. How did you how did you start to scale all this So quickly yeah. So I think there's a couple of things the idea of the business sticky so when you are are in need of graphic design than you naturally either a hire somebody Be You you try to ask. Look for a freelancer. In a lot of those things can be really costly. Those things can be extremely time consuming and so displaces replace it usually displaces you as a business owner until we wanted to create something. That doesn't displace you where you could just sign up to go and ask for what you want. Get it in the under forty eight hours so I think that's definitely like the business model is really good From a standpoint of scaling them we have two things that a tribute to our success number one is content marketing. Seo and number two is cold email. Outreach and I can get into as specifics as you you Humanly possibly want but those are the two things that attribute to the success and growth of the company given that this is a startup sales sales. Let's let's go off of the later in here about your cold outreach. Sure so Cold outreach is something that is near and dear to my heart Sending cody emails is probably at this point. My Passion in actually is not only my passion. It's my life at this point We probably spend close to several thousand emails of a week And we try to make the emails as specific vic as possible. So every email that we've that we write has In element at least a line or two That that that is unique in custom to the individual so we have like a very specific criteria of The first email something along the lines of hey name and then the custom online in it says something along. The lines of Kenji isn't on-demand graphic design. Service that does bub-bubba. Would this be of any interest to you and your team. The custom one line is actually based off of the research that we would inevitably do From linc thin or their general social media profile so it could be something along the lines of like. If I were to write something about me it would say. Hey Jonathan Just watched I The seventy sixers last night They beat the Cleveland Cavaliers by one point What a great game By the way Peggy is on demand graphic after designed service that does bub-bubba in so that level of That personalization is incredibly important. And I think it's something that a lot of people are missing missing so then we take that one line right and then we send it into like Din and we send the same message to a personal link thin the end that that we want to ensure that the person reads it. You don't necessarily need to make sure that they sign up right away. Usually we are sales process in cycles a little bit longer than most people. It's not just like you know one. To two day thing. It could be a week or a month long thing and so we're constantly sending messages were constantly answering emails than Young most likely they're going to be able to open. They're going to be able to respond in. They're going to be able to do. The things that we would want to do is push Zim along. The funnel is your first email. The only one that said custom to that level now so every emails going to be one hundred percent customs. Some of them are tempted. My favorite email that we send is is based off of my other passion which is food and wine line and so Based off of I think this is a really interesting idea. I think I hope that when people listen to steal it I think I hope hoped they can apply it to themselves But what we do is we have an email that I think it's good that talks about food and so it will say something on lines of Hey What what city are you? Are you in again. TEL AVIV TEL AVIV. Okay so Hey I was recently in Tel Aviv and I went to this restaurant. Insert restaurant I had an amazing meal I ordered the insert food Have you been there if not at the tell. Tell you more about my experience by the way I sent you an email a couple of days ago About our ondemand graphic design services. Benji wanted to get your thoughts about it. And so that's that's like that's the second like the second or third email within the chain and what that does is it increases the the ability of it not go into spam in so you're essentially just changing the restaurant names. You're changing the city name based off of where they're located it in your changing the the dish that they that company or that restaurant specializes in. It's a lot of work though. It is to be meals a day. It is a lot of work But our goal is to be able to. We're sending a hundred of thousands per week when it comes to to today Were actually very selective. With how many we send out so we only send ended about maybe per person Fifty developing today. Twenty five to two seventy five axiom. So in the reason why that's important is because we wanna make sure that the person is delivering is being it's being delivered to them But in addition to that it's not going to spam. Yeah so all of that time is we. Don't want it to be wasted in. So we have an incredibly high deliverability rate which is something. I'm currently product and we're working on the spam spam rate. I think that's really important. Most most founders and early stage companies aren't paying attention to the deliver deliverability rate to now open rates in your spam rates. I think it's really important. However back to this high level of customization I really like it and it's also so not about business? It's it's very personal. It's really not so much about them but you could tell it's personal. Oh and it's about Their area houses affected your your response rates Well the end goal all is to be able to either have them go to the website in research themselves or be go incentive for Demo You know we average quite a bit. We have a couple of sales people so pretty much from nine to five nine. Two six Our team is is pretty much booked throughout the throughout the day In so that's kind of like what we're are what we want. We want people to be EH booked up without necessarily having to think and all they have to do is focus on the conversation. That's been a great way that we've been able woulda grow is just that constant sending emails Getting the beat. The meetings booked giving them to go to the website using re target marketing. In order due to Get them to reconsider Signing up for a demo or buying from the website or giving a discount code or whatever it may be just Being able to add fire to that add fuel to that fire and be on a scale from one to five ten people. That's fantastic so who sending out the emails. Then if the salespeople are in the demos all day long or are they also sell sending this. Yeah I mean it's a it's a collaborative effort so Some people send emails some people Don't it just like a it's like a it's it's a An assembly line. Essentially you have people who send email to people who Passover meetings The people who booked the meetings if people who take the demo. Oh yeah people who do both if people do all. I think it's really important. You know one thing to mention for those. That are listening is you're more of a a non low touch sales process. You not like a very long process with multiple triple decision. Makers is that correct Can Be indefinite can be it. Depends on who you target. So we know with one hundred percents certainty that the person who the person is that is the decision maker and for us it's is not the CEO I mean at times it can be depending upon how small or how big the businesses but for the most part we're not targeting the CEO. We're not targeting. The the owner of a company of the principle of a company because they're not the ones that need it the people who need it. Are you know the the marketing in directors the the creed brand managers and things like that. So those are the people that we're trying to target those people that were going after all right and a What's your average sales price Well we have packages so it's three hundred sixty nine dollars a month. It's four hundred seventy nine dollars a month or six hundred ninety eight dollars a month got you. I guess. If you WANNA go the average it would be the four hundred seventy nine. Because that's just our middle package okay. So it's really interesting so it's It's a Well oiled machine and you've got them sending out these very highly personal emails with a goal doc of signing up on the website or signing up for a demo not not necessarily to respond and engage in the in the email is more to get them brand awareness and have them check it out. I mean obviously there are going to be questions do arise based we saw the emails that you send but for the most part. Yeah I guess you could say it's more so just about them because if you're talking to somebody they don't you don't know they don't want what you are talking about because they don't know who you are they don't know who we are so we have to come in at like a more friendly element in order to break break down that barrier and let them know that there's a human on the other side and not just like a sales person. Yes so once we break that barrier then then we can have more of a thoughtful conversation in there. They're they're a little bit more eager to to actually WANNA help because or they not help but they want to learn more because of the the personalization were that we're bringing them. Do you know the response rates to your emails off the top of your head. I'd say somewhere between I. It depends on. It's A. It's a hard question because there's so many different scripts depends on who you're targeting things. Yeah it it depends on you could say there are times where it could be five to ten percent There are times where I've seen you know twenty thirty percent just it depends on like how many emails are being sent off that off of like a thousand it just ranges. But I'd say if you WanNa make sure that your open rates a rule of thumb. Does he WANNA be sure. Your open rates are around thirty percent Or hire a reply rates. You WanNa get anywhere between five to ten percent energy. You feel if the neither of those are if you're not able to obtain either of those than You WanNa you WANNA change your entire process to yeah yeah base you know yeah and it's always good to Ab test and always be always be ABC in the testing Do you have to because you don't know what's going to work and everything changes for for the person. So what else do do you do in your your outbound that that helps with the process we do. I mean Lincoln is this is something that we also do. Think a lot of people are missing out on that We don't really do anything else. We've dabbled in sending link think local people within our geographic region Like care packages where we send them like a starbucks gift card and things like that Just kind of see. It didn't really work all that well to be perfectly honest but I think it is something that is worth exploring into In the near future. But but it's hard it's Internet based business so it's hard to be able to kind of take me off line into the online in vice versa. Make that transition. Unless you're going for major count pace sells process yeah in our in our processes like literally one company can sign up for Wendy and Only pay US three hundred sixty nine dollars in a small business can do the exact same thing. So why would we treat. That's what does one of the best things about penalties. Why would we treat say apple different than small business? mom-and-pop shop down the street they're paying us the exact scene There's no there's really no hierarchy when it comes to our sales process everybody's treated equally. I think that's A very strong statement is something I really believe in as well is is an I credit it too much success as a salesperson is that each lead goes the same exact process. I don't care if your fortune five five hundred like you said if you're apple or your small business on the side you go through the same exact process and that that really helps. It shouldn't be a machine to say but it really helps keep the flow in the momentum. Going of your deals. I think that too. I think back in our past business started a digital marketing agency and the Digital Marketing Agency was the complete opposite of what we're doing now In the standpoint of sales we treated top tier customers like royalty Neglected the people who were only paying us a couple hundred thousand dollars a month and looking back at it. It's a huge regret and I think it's the part of the reason of why the agency excuse me didn't do all as as well as we all would have hoped it would. I think it's because Hud's of the sales process in the way we are nurturing liens or lack thereof yes definitely. I think it's a huge missed missed opportunity to to neglect leads and leads or even smaller clients is every person counts. Everybody's dollar is still dollar. Yeah yeah absolutely. One hundred percent agree. So what other mistakes have you made as a founder in the sales process I think training is also really important when you are the person coming up at the process. It's really easy to think that people oh can read your mind and the effect of the matter is that they can't so when you're creating something when you're doing doing something when you are trying to tell your team how to send an email when you're telling your team helped us in the Lincoln Message Wjr when somebody doesn't do it the way that you want them to your first reaction is to get mad and be like why are you. Why aren't you doing this? It's like I told you how to do it. I gave you the blueprint you should be. You should be set in. The fact of the matter is that. You're not the person's not so we ended up re doing every single sales process in rewriting in writing every sales process down on a Google document in that way. We kind of gave a Bible to our salespeople salespeople in says if you have any questions at any point in time here is your Northstar here is your Bible. Make sure that you reread this. If at any point meantime you're not being successful what you do. And that's beneficial because from a sales perspective from a management perspective. You don't have the update twenty different documents in order to retell. What is looking for you just have to be able to tell one if the change one document so I think that was probably the biggest mistake was just the training process? We've reshaped the way that we teach people in our company and it's for the for the better learned might By that was like a huge mistake early on. I wish I would recognize that the sooner do you do when you rewrote all your sales processes. Did you write it with sales team and how. They're helping their input. Yes and at the same time. I every time that now I I wrote abby aspect of it so what I would do is I would finish a segment demint out go to the person that's best for that particular topic in and say. Hey does this does this make sense. Do you think I think that's a a person can reduce and be able to understand what it is that you need to do. In order to be successful in the short answer the question was yes so And then sometimes it was no okay. What areas confusing? In order to lay out a very clear process. It is incredibly. It'll be difficult to go line by line. Say Number One opened up Open up Yes where opened up replied. I O open up your email. Inbox Your G. Mail number two. Click on this number three Copy script a at template and in export file an import file into another area. So like you don't think about these things from like if you're a high level thinking you don't I really think about it but you have to really go into the minute detail of like every aspect and there's a lot of times that when you're going rewriting these things you miss that one detail l. that's really important So you really have to like from my perspective in life you have to rethink of that. You're going to teach somebody how to do it. You literally have to go backwards words and figure out like how were you able to do it yourself and write down every little note on like a pen or paper and then be able to translate that and give it to somebody else and don't actually do it from memory. Do it physically do the action so you see that. Oh the check box you have to check the check box. Eight hundred remembers being shot. Take screen shot added in I think I'd probably wrote down the entire process At least ten fifteen times and every time I did it I had to add something else because I missed the step. That's just that's just the way it works but like that level of detail. Maybe it's like a part of OCD. That might probably have I would say along the lines of that in addition to just really wanting to our team to be successful yeah. I wish I wish that out sooner. I think sales playbook is so important and so many people. Just don't don't put that together 'cause and they just kind of wing it and then as you said you get employees. That are doing the wrong things and can't figure it out just because you told them but also allows everything to be in one central place and allows everything to be so crystal clear that it really leaves nothing up to do your to guessing yeah. I think it's easy to do sales when you're by yourself but once you start to hire somebody than that's when it starts to get really tricky in so so you need to hire some. You can't be doing if you want to grow your business. If you want to grow your business to say like a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year you could probably get away with you doing south by yourself but when you really WANNA start to scale gala in go higher into the millions into the several hundred thousands than You really you can't do it by yourself. You have to hire somebody so tricks. How long did it take you to get your first your first like fifty customers or I one hundred customers when you were doing ended on your own Relatively fast actually I'd say I ten customers was within like a week or so Then maybe not. Maybe a little bit longer than I was. It wasn't a full month. I could say that was were those first customers. Were they like in the network customers like you already knew them. Yeah so what we did right before we right. Before we launched Benji we interviewed Costa the two hundred people. We asked them questions. Like what are some of your biggest problems that we that you have in your business. If you were to sell it what would it do for you If if you were to buy this type of service I e a graphic design service would that be of any important steel and the shorter answer was yes it it was and we would buy it and then we then took those people that said yes in we say well guys we actually created it. Would you be interested in that. was there's a large portion of the early sales company was just US doing research in talking to what we believe was our end user and then they became our customer. I'm so oh happy you said that. This is what I teach in my boot camp. I have a sales boot camp and basically one of the most important things is is go out and talk to your perspective client base go out and just interview them and shadow them see how their workflows understand them and and by by doing that they're going to want to buy your product anyways even without you selling it. If you don't interview close to at least one hundred people before you start selling than you don't have a real business it's as simple as that The things that we learned within that process in time period it was invaluable invaluable You can't put a number. You can't put a price on that that level feedback I would say it's the foundation of how we how we began so you have to give give credited absolutely. I think it's fantastic. And so needed I've Viva N- had seen people that will go sit in the office of their prospective buyers and shadow them for for weeks I to understand their daily workflow and their daily routine so that you can really build a system in place to help them. Yeah so how did you know when you you you had a good product market fit. I think good question really thought about that. How do we know I? I think we knew that it would work. Well because we needed the product ourselves we we needed the service ourselves so we were graphic design. We were a digital marketing agency prior to penalty and one of the hardest things that one of the the the most difficult and challenging experiences that we've had was finding reliable graphic design talent for our customers so we we had the problem ourselves in so we knew that if we had the problem ourselves than other people would probably have the same problem and then once we did those that the research that s when we found out that crap people are very similar to us. They have the same problems. So that's how that's when we knew that it would be the the product market fit. I think that's that's that was exactly. The moment was when we had this problem. You have this problem. We created a business around it. Do you need it. The answer is yes so and then and then they put their money where the mouth was bought. It exactly. Yeah going back to the early days so what was. What was the most valuable lesson that you learned at that time Understanding that time is money and there are a lot of times that you give things away from free or at a discount and into into beginning you. Don't you don't You may not financially be hit or you may not be like time wise your time allocation may not be like detrimental in the very beginning. Because you're giving something at a discount or premium or free or whatever But in the future as you grow it hurts you more than it hurts you more than it helps you. Well I think number one number two is any new strategy or any new idea you have to. You have to take into consideration the cost of displacement which essentially means that if you come up with an idea and it's going to take unit additional two hours a month or a week to execute this. What is it taking you away from with everything else and more often than not? It's ext taking you away from more than what you would inevitably want a tough one to its top wanted to. It's it's expensive. It's silly because why not just focus on the things that actually bring you revenue or when I focus on the things is that like grows your business instead you come about these new ideas to for what purpose to because you don't think like focus on the thing that's working if it if it isn't working entirely tweak it don't just come up with a brand new idea all right When did you decide? It was time to scale. When did you know it's time to start? Start Building your team process. Since Day one our original goal was was our original goal in strategy. Idea isn't for this to be a small a small business so we've always had the idea of how can we grow faster and so from the very early inception the business that stat was our mindset. Did nothing else has changed so We have a very lavish goal of where we want to be We want every business. We WanNA be In one of the the the most sought after in reliable graphic design services and just productized services in the in the world. You can't do that without thinking about scaling from the beginning. Yeah I think it's really important. But what stage did you know. Because he didn't. Did you hire two to three salespeople right off the bat or did you say okay. No we didn't hire somebody until he hit like two hundred customers. Okay and why. Why that number? Why did that was was going on? Then that you decided okay. Now's time my time leading just my time What I was doing throughout the day I was I was working more in the business in on the business and so once? I knew that I needed to step away and actually start working on the business this then. That's when we hire more people but it took a while after Before doing they're not I'm not GONNA lie did took long. It didn't take too along but it definitely. It definitely took a decent amount of time in thought. In sometimes in the beginning of the person wasn't the right fit and so they had to move around a little bit. We need to find new people that were right So yeah difficult all right. What's one piece of advice advice that you have for all the other founders out there Check your ego at the door. Do not the smartest person in the room The people that you hire are way smarter than you. That's why you hired them in the first place. They're probably going to be able to do tell you how to fix your problem and you can't do it by yourself. Yeah that's probably the most important thing that I would. I would recommend to people. Just get take your head out of your ass and You know help help them. Because that's why hard so if you're able to provide resources until for them they're able to help you in return absolutely. I always felt that when I was a manager and build in how to team at my job my role is just to make sure that all the obstacles were out of their way so that they can do their job one hundred percent on one hundred percent all right. What's your favorite tool that you that you use for sales a couple Snow that I owe is really a good S. N. O. VIDA ISO Replied Is Good what Snow Your Snow Viz as a An email chain and also a tool to collect data If you go onto linked in with the chrome extension and you type in marketing director in the search field and you can find all the marketing directors Email addresses phone numbers accompanying information formation. Things like that so that you really easy way to extract the data Excuse me We could also reply apply. The Iro sees me really good Yes where is really good Clear out is really good. It's an email automation. Who's actually on APP sumo for awhile? So we got that discounts. That was really good. It's very very reliable. Very Rageh. Very good tool Google drive is another tool that we use quite a bit a very vital piece of many businesses. Yeah Yeah I would be remiss to not say it because of how important it is so if you're not using it you need to use it. Those are probably the most important ones that'll that'll probably help anybody be able to get to where they need to be in a quick time period all right. What's one something that you do that you do differently? That allows you to an excel is a founder. Can't find it but I have a book you know just like a note pad about this bigger. So people that are listening. It's is like no bigger than like a a small book and I write in every single day about what I'm trying to do that daily. What are the most important things for that day and in a as I get them through cross them off for the longest time for years I would only do digital in? I didn't realize how crappy the system was us by doing digital and so I started writing it like changed my world. Yeah there's something about actually handwriting things that that makes a huge difference in your head. Oh yeah absolutely. Yeah I think just the idea of physically being able to look at your day in being able to just crossed. It's the mall. I think is like it's an incredibly satisfying but also just you get to think about your Dana different different matter. Well you're putting organization behind behind it. I think that's what's most important and you know you you do what gets planned and so it. It really is important just to right. Even if it's it's only like top three things it gets the momentum going so that's once you get those stuff done you feel good and you start to accomplish a lot more hundred present Jonathan. Thanks so much for joining us and taking the time to share with everybody. I think there was a lot of good good information here and things that people could take away implemented to their business. How can people reach out to you or find more information about the best way is to head over to our website which is benjy dot? Co Theo P. N. J. I dot. Co If you like our story feel like our process if you have any other additional questions feel free in reach out I'm sure that if you you mentioned this podcast that people would be able to send an email to our team in NBA directed towards me to answer any additional questions But if you are in need of a reliable graphic design service We are able to complete anything from a website design not develop input designed to a logo. Oh to brain material social media content so much more People submit are a people submit requests on a daily basis and we have the maximum turnaround on forty eight hours. So if you're constantly need of graphics if you're constantly if your content creator or your businesses a content generator like like machine like ours is then I'd highly recommend peggy so just Benji dot. Co Great Jonathan. So much for joining US thank you. Thanks for listening to startup. Sales with atoms springer. Subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode contact Adam about speaking engagements or consulting services at Adam at startup sales dot ISO.

Benji dot Apple founder Peggy apple CEO Digital Marketing Agency Google Jonathan Gruber Bosque Jonathan Adams Springer Tel Aviv US sales VP business owner Iro starbucks NBA
The Great Escape

The Journey

33:20 min | 2 years ago

The Great Escape

"Began to open the door and he had this gun in my back could feel it. You know, I didn't think I was going to go, not in a million years. There was absolutely no way because somebody's got a gun at your body. You feel like you're not gonna make any decisions about anything. This is Emma Slade. And in this episode of the journey, we're going to take you on her odyssey from living a life. She thought she wanted to a harrowing experience that made her do a one eighty this is a story about the trip that changed everything. Hi, I'm Jonathan Gruber. And this is the journey. The journey is an original podcast by KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, where we meet extraordinary people whose lives are transformed by travel. MS lead worked in the high rolling world of finance as an analyst based in Hong Kong. It was a job. She loved and in September of nineteen Ninety-seven. She was sent to Jakarta the Asian financial crisis have begun, and it was her job to see just how much trouble her banks Indonesian investments were in. I had a tough day off some tough questions. I thought I'd done well, and I went back to lovely five-star hotel feeling. Yeah. I did good job that I've got to the bottom of this, and going to recommend we do this, this, and this was back in her hotel room, when she heard a knock at the door. I had like black war silk for such suit with covered buttons and put it into the joy cleaning those knock at the door, and I presumed it was gonna be that or towels being delivered such so Emma open the door. There's a gun that was pushed into my chest and the man behind begun pushed into the room and the door close. And I just thought I was going to die because an unstoppable man with the gun was no in my room and what he was doing there. So I was just just carrying on the floor begging for my life because I presumed he was about to kill me. I had a gun at my. Head. And then. Yeah. It's how to digest because you're reacting to something that you just never going to happen to you. So it's not something you've hers. I didn't know if I should linked to the meeting I'd had that day. The I've been too tough with these businesses are too many questions. And he was there to make sure he'd found the right person. And it was going to, you know, get rid of that prison. This man seemed very interested in who she was, but he also started taking her stuff like credit cards, and her cardiac, watch Emma said, he looked slimy, thin, very thin wiry kind of Posen with sleep back black hair and a very shiny suit and very shiny creaky shoes. Did he any point say what he wanted and he held a gun to your head at one point? Yeah. And did you try to get away? Well, I mean once the doors closed how am I gonna get away, right? This no exit points, where where's your exit point? Right. You go to mind with a gun, you know, very, very close to you or on you. And how do you turn that around? He was very agitated. There was a lot of walking around come back and forth fiddling with things and then I just done. Oh, he just didn't leave. Yeah but terrifying because any moment, you know, you just didn't know what was going to happen. When he came into the room, I must have screamed a lot, which is heard in other rooms, but I don't actually remember screaming, I just think you're in such shock and such fear that you feel completely silent. But that alerted the hotel that something was going on about half an hour after the man entered her room, the phone rang and picked up and a hotel, employee asked if she was okay, she didn't want to raise her captor suspicions. So she said, yes, the employee then asked if someone was there with her. She said, yes, a few minutes later. There was a knock at her door and the answer. The man in her room stood behind her out of sight with the gun in her back. So she answered that she was fine. The hotel employees left once came to the woman went away from the room again. Then we knew tried because they knew then he knew. And I knew that people knew that we were. What started out as an apparent robbery was now a hostage taking. I think you can imagine every every second in that room felt like very long period of time in a very let nobody knew of Asli, my mom didn't know my family's and no, it's just the sense that your unable to tell anybody that you're in that situation, I'm going to die in this room, and nobody's gonna know, when I was in that room pleading for my life. I thought very like I hadn't done anything that made a difference. And I felt very much that particular I hadn't loved anybody. And I hadn't been loved, and I fell if parts of me just hadn't grown up and the if I died, then I just would have died without carrying by anybody really. Afternoon turned into evening, and then there was another knock at the car. I had option t to open the door with the gun in my back and I chose to run. Which I shouldn't have done because it was extremely dangerous. When you've been waiting for a dilatot Quinn, and finally opens you to start K just want to go through the door. There was no thought in it. And when I began to open the door and yet is gun in my back. I could feel it you know, I didn't think I was going to go, not in a million years. There was just absolutely no way because somebody's got a gun at your body. You feel like you're not gonna make any decisions about anything. You feel very disempowered in my eyeliner. I could see these crouched soldiers and policemen with guns. Right. Then I guess I felt like okay. He's one person here with one gun and about seventy people here at their guns. Instinctively just thing this is my chance. I knew that. I could see them he couldn't and I had a minute to run. Then lots of police NAMI went into find guns. Always in now, I think for about two and a half hours. Yeah. Emma, was safe. It turned out her captor was not a higher disaster. He was just a gambler intent on a simple robbery, the police got him. And after giving them her statements Emma move to a different room in the same hotel that same night. I do remember fighting my mom just saying mom, I'm fine. But I have been held up by armed gunman nothing to worry about I do member doing that because I wanted to tell somebody, but I didn't wanna make a big drama about it. You know, despite her harrowing experience Emma, went back to work the very next day. I stood my meetings. I'm just not a quitter and I was going to finish my job. I don't think anything's with doing an issue, you know with your best effort. Yeah. No half measures for you. Not really know that is an understatement. Emma's never been one for half measures. And when she was young Emma's father picked up on that. I like challenge and I like doing things that maybe not expected of me, my father, thought, I should go into the city and being investment banker. And what did you think when he said, oh, I thought it was cool because I thought that women didn't do that kind of thing. So I thought he was expressing some sort of faith in me that I could be kind of greater than my gender appeared when Emma put her mind to something she always gave it her. All I did English and history at Cambridge than I did find out goldsmiths, and then, eventually, I did financial analytics that might sound like an odd combination. But when Emma was in university, her father died. And that had a big impact she decided to trust his instincts and went into finance, and I thought it would be a good thing to see if he was right. And to become kind of successful and financially independent where we work at New York, and then London Hong Kong most of my career was in Hong Kong. Yeah. How many hours a week? Oh, I mean it's like the seven days a week will the time. Yeah. Because the furniture markets move really really fast that global everything's in a different time zone. So you often need to be aware of what's happening in Japan than Arca Europe. So it requires a lot of tension, like a lot of investment bankers, probably my life was quite rigid. You get up, then you go swimming, you do some kind of physical, excite then you have breakfast. Then you go to work, then you have lunch, then it's a very ordered where living and you haven't. You haven't got any children? You haven't got a partners. So it's very work orientated life. Oh, it's very interested in being successful. I wanted to be smart. Well informed, if you asked me, what see forecast for economic growth in Indonesia, next year, I wanted to be able to tell you exactly. And if you ask me, some question about petrochemical industry, in Thailand, vertical integration. I wanted to tell you exactly. I think everybody in investment banking wants to be the smartest person in the room. And I was in a different to look at 'em. I think she was living the life. Most investment bankers are very interested in that bonus. I liked to make Mark loathing, I felt very lucky to have a job that was very stimulating and excited. I liked feeling that the decisions I was making were meaningful and important because you're dealing with a lot of money. So that felt good the financial world scene to suit ama-. She was smart and successful but emotionally. I was deeply unhappy with my father's death and way to cope with grief and kind of still carry on with life, which didn't feel like it was very easy when he died, I think I want to make him proud, and I knew that of all the things that could have done to go into that field would have been something that would have made him peaceful and not worried that I would be vulnerable in the world. I'd have a good job have money coming in such censure those very basic things apparent wants for their child. Emma worked in London, and New York for a couple of years before being sent to Asia to work on investments there and to her Hong Kong was energetic, and very exciting. So the week after being taken hostage in Jakarta, Amer returned to her base there as though nothing had happened. But something very profound had happened and eventually it caught up with her. My looking day was no different, but my mind has different what I found was that when I was doing anything in a usual way like I was in the office sitting at the desk. Suddenly, I would be completely Nutley back in and I would experience intense fear like breakout. In a sweat, I would be able to smell him. I we'd be up to hear his shoes walking towards me and I'd be completely different time. So my body within the office, but my mind would be completely locked in fear. And tara. And that just stab the time day and night at became very, very hard to sleep. And so it's like I guess people would say that is like, when you have nightmares in your sleep, but you kind of have the mood along as well. And you're sending he'll get a mention it to anyone else. Especially in a corporate investment environment. Right. So you're worried by what's happening. You don't understand what's happening. You can't really tell anybody having to. So that's a pretty toxic combination. But the came appoint about four months later, I just realized I just actually couldn't couldn't do this anymore. I was walking back through Hong Kong park, and the chief financial officer of the company was coming towards me. And he, he fiddled in his jacket his jacket pocket or something. And it completely freaked me out because that's of precip resumes coming out of it. Right. And I can remember just wanting to cry and been completely terrified then realizing that he'd recognized me because of see, you know. And just what to do, and just running pasta because I couldn't speak to him because I was so terrified and my mind he was coming with a gun for me. Right. And so I think that I just remember that was a pivotal moment, which I realized I can do this. No more because I'm no longer seeing reality for what it is. Because I'm so in that room still in my mind and your, your boss was none, the wiser she's doing great. Yeah. Yeah. Toughest nails. Yeah. Exactly. Emma told her boss, she wanted to go home. Quest wasn't granted initially because I think they thought I was fine because I done such a good job at hiding. What was really going on with me and what they didn't realize this is me saying, I can do no more, you know. And I just got up and I put to the lifts. And that was it always done. I knew I said to 'em went back to England but things didn't get better. Yeah. It's horrendous. It's even worse beckoning. Yeah, it's really bad. I don't know why. But it became very difficult. I couldn't read where I, I just wanted to just end my life. Really, really awful. The thing is that the incident was one thing, right? And people can understand that and sympathize at that, but what I was ending up suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, and that it's very hard to explain to people, and I felt bad that I had it because I felt like I didn't understand why had it because I thought eventually was taken on special full survived hosted situations over life, threatening conditions and start of the, the help I needed, really the course was intense, but afterwards MFL she could start to move forward again in ways. She previously couldn't have imagined when it was ova. I gradually started to kind of reintegrate. Into life again and went back to a part time and then eventually went back to a fulltime but not for very long because for that stage, I realize that I just didn't want to do that with my life anymore. And I, I had fundamentally changed what changed? I just didn't find the financial markets very fascinating anymore. It just looked like a bit of a game. I couldn't really get involved with properly anymore. Yeah. And I wanted to understand more about kind of who I was, and what made me. Well, and what made me happy and I didn't wanna waste my life anymore. Emma's mother saw that she was having a difficult time and thought she should try a brief getaway. So she signed up for mosaics course increase. So went to my was as in Greece. She was ex- exciting aside had. Kind of glue and bits of China, and, but it was there, I saw somebody doing some yoga and was really fascinated with what this woman was doing because I seen it before because yoga that point was huge is now. And that was really the stove me realizing that I needed to physically heal, and the I discovered this, huge passion and also quite natural ability to be flexible. You just knew I had to give myself some time to find a way to live differently being held hostage had left 'em feeling vulnerable and yoga helped her build up her confidence. I think it took me many years to feel safe to be honest to be really honest. Because the members of the experience and the physical trauma kind of stayed in my body for longtime, the practice of yoga offered her a chance to get strong again physically, but also mentally and yoga, of course, is closely linked to Buddhism. It was very interesting to me that he was a philosophy which talks much about the nature of mind, the nature of thought the nature suffering the nature of mental suffering, Missouri. Interesting for me because of the experience at had Emma traveled around the world for a couple of years studying yoga meditation. She returned to England to change yoga classes were full, but she became more and more drawn to the practice of meditation and into the Buddhist teachings of compassion. When was the moment you thought this is it. I'm going to become a Buddhist. Well, it wasn't easy, because I'm not I'm not big fan of institutional religion to be honest, you know, even now have my doubts. It's about what happens when wonderful ideas, become human institutions those kind of wary to be honest. But in the end, I just thought you know, I think I'm never going to stand this fascinating philosophy in depth unless I commit to. So I did became a Buddhist in Scotland in two thousand three but it took many years before she really committed to it. I didn't have a clear, Buddhist, Barth, I went on various courses did some retreats, but I guess I didn't have fully why didn't have as a teacher. I didn't have a teacher, who could take me forward at that point. And then in two thousand eleven she went on a group tour to boot, Tom. He. You don't know why probably karma. Yeah. And then what happens so I'm like put. It's nerd from the group. Other people they wanna go shopping. They wanna buy textiles mountains. I wanted to, to meditate is right. I mean try to wonder central London bumping into meditators in this Himalayan country. I know this incredible meditators and Buddhist scholars plus was so. Yeah, it was a chance to talk to monastics until two people who felt meditation was a really important thing. So I just walked into temple high up in the mountains in baton place, playschool dot Chula, and to see the profile of the Himalayan range, on your right side, very high up and batons kind of blue and crispy and revoked these steps and smell of incense and we went into this temple and as I walked into Stemple those among. Over there, on the right hand side in his red robes with shaven head, right? And I think I see around him Silva cresent Randy's head, I then wondered if it was just like the winter light, but I felt very strong kind of feeling of when he took him. But then, again, I've been talking to anybody, who's in robes in petanque, and then started took to him, and then I heard his voice and his voice at a very, very powerful impact on me, and I saw I need to you, and then we sat down in the temple and we talk tonight just completely lost track of time. And then I go quite emotional. Cried because I tried to explain I wanted to be a kind person. Meeting this man or monk and didn't really know who he was just yet had a profound effect on her. She wanted to stay and spend more time with him to tap into his wisdom, but she was on a tourist visa and had to go back to England. A few months later, though, she was back on a plane to Bhutan to try and find him again. I thought I just Joshua, and he'd be standing right there just like he was before, you know, Oaten Natasha temple, and there was somebody much told her there who clearly wasn't him by a monk and kind of look at its monk thinking, who in the hell, you know, the right monk, and then the guy said, no, no. The one that was hit then he's gone into three retreat. I'm sure supposed to come back and find guy, you know what was going on? And I felt really really crestfallen but the driver he gave his number two, the monk. So we went to Dr resort to have a Cup of tea. I'm member just been completely floored. Because as I'm sure this. Is the next thing now I didn't know what to do. And while Emma was wondering what the next step was the drivers phone rang. And he said, no, that wasn't a monk. It was the Lama of the tempo and they found him. And he remembers you and yeah, he'd like to meet you too again. And he's in his home village doing rituals right now. But he's gonna come to meet you, and that's where he did. Meets Lama Nima searing, if you want to find out where to hit us you have to suffer without somebody, you never know about the. If your other hippie. You don't know what is suffering, then someone ten about suffering gives them would lead, because they've never Sephora. He says things like that, when Lama I met Emma, he had his doubts filling making, but he had gotten some deficient about these and maybe from that I got some team here in my heart and pedantic we box from the but he didn't she today and she wants to meet me. So from them. I totally my mind that she gets these. And I do some practice. She was very deli. And that's where he gave me the Mallaby eyewear today. They were his prayer beads and leisured here, you're going to need these, and that was when I kind of knew okay? You're, you're saying you're going to be my teacher. It was her past experience, her father's death being taken hostage in Jakarta, that made him think she might be a good student here. Many problems in our lifetime. So from there, we only have fishin ain't she understand everything what is is. If you want to hit our stall on what you had to these from understood something do right from this free. How to overcome this Afri hope to be strong Emma, went back and forth, from England to study with them at the monastery in baton, whenever she could. But even Lama underestimated her say, give these huge tags on compassion to eight massive, and I think he will allow shut her up. I'll see. A couple of years, you know, kind of you didn't know what you're stating with right. So I sort of read all those came out with a whole lot of questions. I think you start to realize, okay, she's actually really, really serious about this. And then he gave me some mentions to learn. And I learned them off for her, and not actually easy to learn to Venice in sunscreen into Ben. I think, again, he realized okay? She's not kidding around here. Nowadays if you were to pass mislaid on the street or say, sit next to her at an airport, you'd probably turn your head because of her head. Have a shaved head and I'm wearing full length rate ropes of Buddhist nun because I been it's none. In August of twenty twelve less than a year after Emma found Lama in town. She began to live under vows nomin. I never discussed me becoming a nun. Never one day in November. He said to me, now you change your dress. I realized that he was telling me to stop being latest and become a monastic, and he had never mentioned it before. I never saw. I could become a nun, and he never said what was going to be entailed. He just said, you have the mind of none. You have to become a nun. One of these, but I thought to be nuns qualified chief collegian. So that's I see engineering. Have joined engine known those more data in. Emma was officially ordained a year and a half later on very short notice. She found out the night before the ceremony and had no time to prepare, and it was about two hours long all into baton, and I had to speak back when he's spoken to tonight to repeat into baton, which I hadn't been able to pay for. And I didn't have the text. So I just. Today. My best it was almost as though the ceremony was a test for lack fly. I felt really kind of amazing to thirty strong and powerful and was incredibly spirits. Yeah. But, you know. I just wish Tom would give me a bit more preparation briefly. And how did she do during the ceremony? Did she do it right? Correctly. Maybe. How is she doing now? Kief studying goo bucks. No, no. She knows most of the forty. Like bruce. No. I understand more. She reads it into betton, right? Yeah. Unbelievable. Is it hard for her to live the way you live? Well, heart. She just hot. She stealing. I'll try this. I can't shooting on you. I never do this. I'm the only western woman deigned in baton and think come nearly non Asian who's been chance to Manassas studying baton. So what has been offered to me? It's been incredibly rare and very lucky to have it and did away her former life prepared her for the one she's living. Now when you were working for this organization as a financial analyst, you were pretty much living a celibate monastic life it sounded. You know you wrong. That's interesting. But a similar as they might have been on some fronts. The contrast between the two world is usually extreme and Emma is in a unique position to realise that I can recall being on holiday wearing a bikini. You know, I can recall going out for a nice meal somewhere and having gossip shot in Iran. I can recall them as members but I don't need to have them now. But I can't remember what they were like, because I've experienced them, some monastics have never experienced them. So I kind of know wife given up because I did once have it. Sometimes you have to wash clothes in a bucket. Right. Sometimes you have to wash yourself in Luckett. You know, you've done if any hair appointments will make out on close to buy or caused the service in the nunnery in baton you have to ask permission to leave the boundary. Right. So you can't just nip out to see a friend for cappuccino. Fortunately, she also has very few possessions. I have some boots for when it's cold and sandals, and it's warm and avid jacket for in its code, and yeah, I mean I have a sleeping bag. That's very helpful. I have a lot of books. It's studying Emma's room has a mattress a pillow kind of desk, and that's it. But the view is great valleys rivers mountains. It's a peaceful contemporaries heading. But she's had to give up a lot more than just material possessions in the west, people dying, for short periods of time, you know, year, three years, there's no option like that. Baton, it's either for life, or you don't do it. So can remember walking down that corridor thinking, I'm never ever having sex ever again. You know, I don't know how old. So. Yeah, so big commitment, the only way forward. I couldn't go forward is layperson. So for those unwilling to make such sacrifices. What's the one thing Emma's odyssey from the financial world to the mountains of Bhutan contains people, what from heart story, they had to learn that trial this practice. You can do anything you can't tunes and you get overcome. The suffering Emma has taken her teachings in compassion, and put them to good use in twenty fifteen. She started a charity called opening your heart to boot Thanh that helps children with special needs there that started her on yet another journey. I was trying to work out how to fundraise well for country. A lot of people haven't visited and for a course, a lot of people that know that so one of my students young students said. You know, I don't know about your life, but a good feeling. It's quite interesting. Why didn't you want your life story and sell that for the charity? And so, yeah, that's why I did. And that's the first time that people really knew I'd happened to me up until that point, I'd still be pretty private about it. Emma's book is called set free and all of its proceeds go toward funding the charity, which has made a big difference in the lives of children with special needs. And if there's one thing we know about Emma after all this, it's that she does not take half measures in anything. Vini vidi, what gets you? You. She's very unique person. She's very good day like. I want to. Four pick nuns, and is she your friend is a bit strange in my life. Emma lives at the nunnery in Bhutan, fulltime now buckets, and all though, she returns to the UK for her charity. And to visit family people often even airports, I've had somebody's sitting next to me Neville, never met before and just say dad's really, really ill and I'm here because he's the ill and even supposed him before. But they feel that they can talk to you, and you will respect the feelings. And yeah, I mean, most people I handed my pulse in Delhi, customs Nolan back and the guy on the possible that said, yeah, what's, what's the secret to happiness? But I mean that's a huge compliment. It shows that people want to consider these questions of profound. Meaning of what is to be human, where that feeling of peacefulness happiness comes from. That's what we should be asking. We should be asking those things. It was the big things. Yeah, I think is fine, you know as long as they understand that probably I know the answer. I'll give him my best show. Emma slade. We'll put links to both our book and charity on our website, podcast dot KLM dot com. You've been listening to the journey. An original podcast brought to you by KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. For more background on this story and hear more stories about the trip that changed everything go to podcast dot KLM dot com, and why not review us on apple podcasts helps other listeners fine this podcast, thank you for listening on Jonathan Gruber.

Emma Slade Jakarta KLM Royal Dutch Airlines England Hong Kong robbery Bhutan Jonathan Gruber Tom analyst Lama Indonesia New York Thailand Cambridge Japan Posen investment banker Scotland
The Outsider

The Journey

31:50 min | 3 years ago

The Outsider

"Somewhere on the interior of Kenya in the dusty village of Guenter. Bus breaks yield you. A tall and lanky young man. Steps out and squint in the sunlight. His name is somber. I get dropped off the bus, and I'm in the middle of nowhere. There's a few people hanging around in, they're all staring at me, like really strange. I'm there with my suitcase. The guy was supposed to pick me up is not there. And I did not feel welcome, like everyone staring at me. Like, who is this outsider coming into the village? And so we walking takes me to where I'm gonna stay there were walking through these dirt roads and all these trees and is just empty isolated. And there's no electricity. There's no water and it's just, you know, nature and he chose me where I'm going to stay and I'm in this hut. And I'm like, oh my God. This is like what I wanted. These are the first seconds of journey, that would determine the rest of sambas life, the trip that changed everything. Hi, I'm Jonathan Gruber. And this is the journey. The journey is an original podcast from KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, where we meet extraordinary people whose lives are transformed by travel. Find out how today's guest samba scooter ended up delighted to be primitive hut in the middle of nowhere, Kenya means going few years back to another African country. If the opium, this is where samba grew up, and let's make this even more complicated. He is not the opium. I mean, I hope you have Google maps on you because it is really like you need to know your job Orphee. My father is from Holland. And my mother is from Mauritania, which many people know, but it's a country in west Africa under Morrocco is pretty huge. It's, it's basically the Sahara desert. They got me. I was born in, in Mauritania. And then when I was two, we all move to Ethiopia, which is on the other side of Africa. And that is where grew up till I was eighteen. Sambas father was an international aid worker who met sambas mother in Mauritania famine in the horn of Africa meant to move to the opium and international schools for softball. So it's really weird at home because we speak, French with my mom because they Mauritania they speak French, and we speak English with my dad, and I speak English, with my brothers and sisters. But all around us, we had to learn Ethiopian, and because of his father, he also needed to learn Dutch. We had a Dutch embassy where they had the Dutch school. And every Saturday, a kid's dream come true. We had to go to Dutch school. So you go to school for Monday to Friday, English French and then on Saturday morning, you have to go to school to learn Dutch, which was a nightmare, and I did not like it. And so after the edge of twelve I stopped earning Dutch, his background his lanky height and mixed race looks made him something of an outsider not only at school. But everywhere really? Kids did not know what to make of me. You know, I'm half black and half white and I was growing up any field. And so I didn't belong in the group of Africans. But I also didn't belong in the group of Europeans. And so, I was I was bullied because I was different. And so what I did was, I developed jokes to make fun of my bully, and I've made fun of him in front of the classroom, and everyone started laughing, and then he suppling me the next day. So it was it was like, humor, was my boxing gloves. Boxing, gloves, whose jabs and uppercuts were sharpened by the odd VHS tape of American comedians. That would make their way from his family in Holland, to sambas TV. He watched them over and over. I did not know what stand up comedy was. I just knew that there was something out there where you could stand on stage and tell stories and make people laugh and feel good. And I really was attracted to that, when samba turned eighteen he decided to leave Africa for college behind a Dutch, passport and family roots. So it was kind of a natural choice to move to the Netherlands, but having a Dutch passport doesn't actually mean you are Dutch, especially if you don't speak the language. I could not even go to the supermarket and try to speak Dutch. Because there were so frustrated with how bad it was that they'd just end up speaking English with me. But I knew I had to learn it. If I wanted to get a career in Holland, and so I started to push myself to, to learn the language and what was really strange was this theme, again of being the outsider. I started studying theater, basically, I was learning how to direct right and act. And so I studied at the school of arts in you tricked, I knew I wanted to be a storyteller, and so one day there was an open stage, show, and anybody could go on stage and do something Mike perform. And so you know what I said, I'm going to do a monologue as an actor. And so I wrote this funny monologue. And I went onstage and all they had was a microphone and I grabbed the microphone and I start doing my funny monologue and people are laughing and laughing laughing and after this monologue, someone walks up to me, and he says, how long have you been doing stand up comedy as what it, what is Dan of know? He's like, what you were doing state house like oh, like, that's like, yes. And so, I was like, oh my God, I just did my first stand up comedy show. And like most aspirational stand up comedians in two thousand five samba decided to spend his college internship, teaching improv. In kenya? They tell you to go on exchange to a country for three months. And I really had a strong desire to go to Africa to really get in touch again with my African roots because I was in Ethiopia I was not considered African, but I really wanted to go to Africa to experience being an African in Africa. And so I found this group in Kenya who does theater with different communities, and they basically use the or as a way of dealing with the issues in their societies. And they told me you have to go to this village called wound John. Where you were going to work with different kinds of groups as perfect. This is the exact experience. I wanted I wanted to experience Africa and Jess outed, really African like this do it. So he did it sound bite travel to what he called the real Africa truly far from everything familiar. He was a stencil there to give theater workshops, but he could have done that anywhere, really samba the terminal outsider chose Kenya to find a sense of belonging of home as it turned out, this was the trip that would shake the rest of his. Seven bus ride to this very remote village. And I get dropped off the bus, and I'm in the middle of nowhere. There's, there's a few people hanging around in. They're all staring at me, like I'm really strange there with my suitcase. The guy was supposed to pick me up is not there. And I did not feel welcomed like everyone staring at me. Like, who is this outsider coming into the village? And so we walking defined shows up any takes me to where I'm gonna stay or walking through these dirt roads and his all these trees and is just empty is. And there's no electricity. There's no water and has just nature. And he shows me where I'm going to stay. I'm in this hut. And I'm like, oh my God. This is what I wanted, and it's basically just bed in a small hut. The toilet is about one hundred meters away, and I go to check out the toilet. It's a hole in the ground with cockroaches coming out of it. And then there's a little shower where you use basically seven cups of water cold water to shower less all yet, seven cups of water. And I was like, this is it this is this is what I wanted. Samba says he wanted the Africa where they were no tourists. No internet, and no comedy tapes. He wanted to be just an African amongst Africans. Well, you know what they say, be careful what you wish for the first day was terrifying. Everything in me wanted to leave because I never grew up with that, even though I grew up in Ethiopia, because my dad is Dutch. I we still had a better life than a lot of my friends, but there was something inside me that, that Africans item that really wanted to experience being in this annex in having this to know what it is to understand my roots better. And so as terrifying as it was with the lack of everything I still felt this would enrich me somehow. They had their way of life and I was entering this way of life for the first time as an outsider, but I wanted to be part of it. And yes, there was poverty. Absolutely. And in this village, we know one in three people were infected with HIV and my first night sleeping there at four in the morning. I heard death Wales people's chanting at night, and everything. So yeah, the first night was terrifying. But I was like, you know what I, I can survive here, I can make it here for three months, because this is a part of me to samba got his wish. He got simple hut to live sweat, and come completed. He got sick from the food he got malaria. And he got a roomful of fellow outsiders underage criminals and people who are HIV positive. They were a lumped together to make something. Our eating. Are all actually when you. How do I feel I worked with juveniles? You know, people who were being punished for a crime little kids, and I did not know what crime exactly until I finished working with them. And then people told me, by the way that guy, you're sitting next to he murdered his parents, you know, that kind of kind of crime, but for me it was about the connection I was having with these people, I did not see him as a murder. I did not see that person as having HIV did not see this person as being a refugee. I was connecting with human beings who were telling you, this story, who are using theatre, and art as a way of connecting with one another, and that made it all the worthwhile when rehearsals were done this group of outsiders shunned by their society had created a play which they performed in the center of the village. Hitting pots and pans dancing making music, and then people are attracted to the noise, so they come check it out. It's low these start attracting a crowd around you. And then you do your performance samba would leave work at the end of the day and retired to his simple hut. He says he was inspired by these people, and how despite their extraordinary differences. They made a real connection with each other and their village through theater. Then then he'd think about himself. And so I slow we started to realize what do I have to offer? I have this weird advantage of being from both worlds of being the outsider and the insider, my father is European and my mother is African. So I have the European coming into Africa and the African coming into Europe. My father is white. My mother is black. So I have the white man coming to Africa. The black man coming to Europe. I have my father, who is a Christian, and my mother, who is a Muslim, and I was raised with those two religions, and they were able to live together. And so, I was like I have all these different cultural differences. But still, I'm United with them inside me. And so, I can be the ambassador for all these different cultures to exist together in peace. It's possible looking me, I'm fine. My parents are fine. And so if I can use theater or. Something like comedy to connect all these people into show. How similar we are, despite how different we think we are. That's the key to really pursuing my dream and what I wanna do. And so if anything that village experience as traumatizing as some people might think it was it was. It was so profound, because that's where I realized my role in what my role could be for being a comedian being storyteller. Samba was inspired by his insight his fragmented. Identity was no longer a weakness, but a strength. I think it was one of my last night's. And so, you know, it's there's no electricity. So as soon as the sun sets, everything is pitch black, and I remember sitting outside my hut, and their little firefly's out there, by the trees, and then there's billions of stars in the night sky. And there's of nature popping up at night, and something told me, you know, just write something, it was that night that I was like I need to, I need to create a plan. I need to go back to Holland with a mission. So I don't forget, what I achieved here in these three months, basically, in that hut is where I realized what I have to offer as a performer. So I developed my identity as a comedian in that hut in a dark night with the mosquitoes biting my feet writing this plan by candlelight on my in my diary. And samba was serious about this plan really serious. I made a plan for the next five years of what I wanted to achieve in my life, and how I would achieve it. And the last thing after those five years was moved to LA. I'm going to go back to Holland after Kenya. I'm going to do my stand up comedy in Dutch. I'm going to participate in a competition that will launch my career as a comedian with this new message, I will build on that. And eventually the end goal will be to move to America to Los Angeles to continue giving this message a few days later, samba returned to Holland the speed of life in the west was an overwhelming culture, shock. Everything was moving so fast in pollen. And there was internet that worked very fast in Holland, and there was distractions mobile phones, and everything. But I was like, I'm not gonna forget, I'm not gonna forget, so I printed out my five year plan. And so, I started to do Santa company in touch with my new identity. I used to just do stand up in my regular clothes, but when I came back to Holland after Kenya, I started doing stand up comedy wearing an African shirt and jeans to symbolize me coming from two worlds and barefoot, because I wanted to remember the feeling of walking barefoot around in the village, he wrote a one man show about his life, and struggles, it went so well, he entered the country's biggest showcase the lines cabaret festival, if you win that you can basically count on bookings in the whole country. Manama samba. Samba hort. John. You're who. Hey, i'm. Okay. The show was called Coon mean one on which is more retained for. I am who you are. And that was the theme of the show. I wanted to do a show about coming from two worlds and how my whole life that made me feel like an outsider then by the end of the show. I realized that it's a gift that actually brings people together. And so I wrote the show, I practiced it and when I was accepted to participate in the lights cover festival. I remember on the final night. I was sitting on the stage and I remembered that moment in the hut where I had visualized this moment that about to launch my career in Holland as a known comedian. This is the moment where everything happens. I didn't know it's to win but the results came in and, and ninety percent of the audience had voted for me for the favorite prize. And then the jury had no criticism on my show, which was the first time that happened in, in the history of the lights cover festival. We have nothing to say you're the winner of the lights cover festival. And so that night, I want both the jury and the audience price and the dream kitchen. This was a big deal sambas win was even the top story on that evening's news. Often fifty Foale woman, you ain't seen nothing yet. So when you heard that you'd one went through your head. I have the video of that too, and I you see me on stage so confused. And so in this belief because this moment that I had focused on for three months. So specifically in that hut, and that worked so hard on when I moved back to Holland after Kenya after that trip. In and seeing it come true. The moment that would help me make my dream come true of moving to LA. It was it was I was disbelief. So after that, everything exploded. From the next day onwards. I seventy was on a different interviews for TV shows and magazines and newspapers and I was touring with my show that I warn the final with around the country, and I was booked to do a one man comedy show. So to write that. And I wrote a eighty minute show that I did with that same theme of coming from two worlds but still being United and that show did really well. I toured around the whole country of all, and for three years with that show doing at least one hundred and twenty shows around the country, different theaters. And at the same time for Dutch people who were living abroad, some performed in Turkey Malaysia, Indonesia, Kershaw, even Libya before the fall of Gaddafi everywhere he went people laughed at his self deprecating humor and understood his message of the joys of diversity. I see that they're not that different major religions of the world. You know, the same basic principles. Same foundation. Same god. Yes, one is better at dealing with cartoons than the other. But, you know. Why not just combine them just be Christian, and Muslim, and Jewish, too? Then I will always have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off. It's perfect. Genius. Samba was a hit. He was a star. He was making good money and he was ready to give it all up because he still had a five year plan written by candlelight in a dusty Kenyan hot. Yes. The fame was fantastic. And the money was fantastic. And I was living such a comfortable life. But I knew that my message was not just for Holland. I have to move to the market that has the biggest reach, which is Hollywood. This is where messages are heard loudest around the world, Hollywood. It wasn't an easy decision. In twenty ten samba had a new show in Dutch, an eighty dates booked. He took a trip to Portugal to mull things over and they're walking in the woods he came upon a tree. This tree reminded him of the trees near the hut in the village in Kenya. The place where he'd made his other big decision. So and SABA admits this sounds a little nuts. He sat down and he asked the tree what to do. And the answer was trust life. Trust life, that, when you follow your heart everything will work out for, you know, idea how I would get to Hollywood. It's not easy. Just to move to LA. You need a visa, you need an agent. You need some kind of connection to, to start your career and I know idea how that will work out, but I knew I had to make a decision first, and then trust life. Like I did in that village and just that go, and keep it simple and follow your heart. So I went back to all and told my managers in theaters stopping a moving to LA, and they all called me crazy. And what are you doing? Your star. You have all this stuff you crazy. You're gonna lose it all. And so they said, you'll never perform here, again your career is over. But I knew I had to still listen to myself and follow my heart. His Doug agents weren't the only ones who thought moving to LA was a bad idea. Everyone called me crazy. The people work close to me, did not want me to lose all this because they were afraid for what would happen for me in LA, because you hear these stories of people fail miserably and have nothing. But I knew that I'd made it through the roughest toughest time in village. So in twenty ten samba packed up and moved to LA once there, he signed up for a showcase in which a whole bunch of Spiring stars perform for a whole bunch of Hungary agents looking for talent. So basically, you present a monologue to agents, and if they like you, they will represent you. And so I could not find monologue that represented who I was as a person. So I wrote my own monologue about coming from two different worlds and how all these cultures are inside me, but how no one knows what I am because of that in, so I performed this monologue in front of twenty one agents and seven of them wanted to work with me. And so, I was like, boom, my message has resonated with these people. My name is nNcholas Ray. I am the owner Asian or they're our agency. Los Angeles, nNcholas Ray is the agent who sign samba after the showcase we reached him on the phone in LA. I saw him in the showcase there. And when I thought, wow, this guy's great. So invited him for an interview to the office and here I have in do a coal reading and so many probably sations, and then I realized, I wanted to work with him because he was so talented. And I've been working with him ever since, and what exactly was so special about him that you thought to yourself. I have got to sign this guy. He's energy, he, he was very, very high, and he was happy, and he was a present whereas very unique because what he represents, he's a combination of racist and he's very tall. And he's very. Funny, and he's very quick. To get to work here as an artist and check this out. This is the name of my visa. Alien of extra ordinary of -bility. Let me just say that, again, because it makes me feel so. Alien of extra ordinary of -bility. Real name of my visa, you could Google. So when immigration came up with this name, someone was there at a meeting on Tuesday afternoon, just going. But just wanna go home that we got to come up with a name for aliens talent. I just wanna go home and watch this movie with my wife would move. You're gonna watch e it's about this alien with extraordinary ability. My god. Some stand up is getting noticed like a steady gig at the conic comedy store. One of the biggest comedy clubs in Los Angeles, where artists like Richard Pryor started Jim Carey, and Robin Williams, and I participated in a competition there, and I won that contest and the manager Saami format he's like, you know, what kid you got something I want you to perform here every week on the stages. And so that's how I got into the comedy store working as a comedian, and while American comedy often edgy or profane, most people get sambas message of positive inclusively. I think it is wonderful to have admission to have a girl to do besides acting. It's good because the world's becoming that you see all coming together uniting into one thing. So I think that's part of that. And samba is no longer and alien of extraordinary ability, by the way, he just got his green card which. Which makes him a permanent resident of the United States. He also recently got married. He and his American wife. Now live in the place. He always dreamed of. My studio is in like Hollywood. So we're here. You can see the Hollywood sign from my backyard. What's the building cold? This is the Harlow all the buildings on this street are named after actors there's the Monroe, there's Clark Gable. There's a Harlow where we're leaving so. Yeah, it's it feels good to be among the stars. An agent an apartment close to the Hollywood sign a green card samba says he's ready for his next step major TV and movie productions. There was a couple of films. I did right now tiger hunter, which is about an Indian immigrant moving to America. And I play one of the characters there. Immigrant guys as you can tell I'm Dutch. No. Get that from the hype. No, nothing. I know I don't guys. All right. I know what I do. Look like though, 'cause on the streets frigging Indians, always walk up to be going, but by Stevie. Whoa, whoa look, buddy. I get it. But no, I'm not. I'm not Indian, they're really pushing your. Hey, dog, when I'm talking about India. No, I'm not Indian, you're Paul. India. You look like an hour. Samba says it was tough coming to America on his own. You have to find your way and you have to do it by yourself. But I think because of the experience in Kenya. I was already used to that. And knew that I would I would be fine survive. My ultimate goal is to be very successful in my career as an actor, comedian, spreading this message of unity to make a lot of money into have enough influence that I can help poor societies and people who are suffering to come together to help them sustain themselves and not only have this message of unity, but to actually do something about giving equal opportunity to everyone. But samba you're just one person. What makes you think you can do something, I know it is it's one person. But if anything that village taught me is that it only takes one. One person to tell you something good about yourself or something in positive and inspiring, and it can change your life. One person at a time, and if I can change a few minds in my lifetime, I have achieved what I wanted to do. Hopefully that person who's mind, I have changed will change someone else's mind and then spread out. And how will you know you've succeeded? I think when at the end of my life, I get to talk to a tree, and he tells me, you know what kid you did it. Sambas cutter. If you wanna know more about samba, go to our website, podcast dot KLM dot com. You've been listening to the journey and ridge podcast brought to you by KLM Royal Dutch Airlines to hear more stories about the trip that changed everything go to podcast, kale dot com, and why not review us on itunes. It helps other listeners find this podcast. Thank you for listening. I'm Jonathan Gruber.

Samba Kenya Africa Holland Samba Hollywood LA Mauritania Ethiopia KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Los Angeles Jonathan Gruber opium Europe Sahara desert John America Dutch school boxing
Jonathan Goldberg - Capturing Carbon - [Founders Field Guide, EP. 25]

Invest Like the Best

50:08 min | Last month

Jonathan Goldberg - Capturing Carbon - [Founders Field Guide, EP. 25]

"This episode of founders field guide is sponsored by cleo wanted deliver marketing moments that lasts a lifetime. Cleveland's the ultimate marketing platform for ecommerce with targeted segmentation email automation sms. Marketing and more. Cleo helps you create your ideal customer experience. More than fifty thousand brands like living proof solo stove and nomad. Trust cleveland to grow their business. Keep your customers coming back. Get a free trial at cleo. Dot com slash founders. That's k. l. a. v. i. y. o. Dot com slash founders. This episode is brought to you by digital ocean digital ocean provides founders and creators with the platform. They need to get their website and apps off the ground all with low bandwidth pricing to save them. Money over other cloud providers. If you're looking for the best place to build web apps or api back ends on robust infrastructure digital ocean is the place for you. They provide a fully managed solution. That handles your infrastructure operating systems databases and other dependencies on their new app platform. Product at platform makes it easier to build deploy and scale apps or if you prefer to manage your own. Infrastructure digital ocean provides a suite of products that gives you full control to learn more about digital ocean get started for free at d. o. Dot co founders. That's do dot co slash founders alone. Welcome everyone i'm patrick. Shaughnessy and this is founders. Field guide. Founders field guide is a series of conversations with founders. Ceos and operators building greet businesses. I believe we are all builders in our own way in. This series is dedicated to stories and lessons. From builders of all types founders. Field guide is part of the colossus family. Podcasts and you can access all of our podcasts including edited transcripts show notes and resources to keep learning at join colossus dot com. Patrick o'shaughnessy the ceo of shaughnessy asset management all opinions expressed by patrick and podcast. Guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of o'shaughnessy asset management. This podcast is for informational purposes. Only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions clients of shaughnessy asset management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in. This podcast guest. Today's jonathan goldberg. The founder and ceo of carbon direct. A company focused on advising and investing in carbon removal at scale. Jonathan started his career in the commodities division of goldman sachs and then went on to start a commodity hedge fund b. b. l. commodities. In our conversation we cover the state of the carbon problem today. The importance of global carbon standards and carbon taxes and the future of carbon capture and removal technologies. This was a masterclass on all things. Carbon related. Please enjoy my conversation with jonathan gruber. Our michigan these episodes is to provide access to the best ideas and people in business and investing. We will soon be significantly expanding the scope of this effort to make it possible at colossus were expanding the team. In hiring to critical early roles the first position will be our lead mobile software developer. This person will lead the development of our mobile applications which will change how people learn together the second position will be our lead designer because the existing team lacks design experience. This person will have a blank. Slate to creatively designed new applications from the ground up to learn more about both roles visit join colossus dot com forward slash careers now onto the show to john. We've been trying to do this for a long time. So jack to do with you. Finally you've taught me most of what. I know about the topics that we're going to cover today. I at an interesting place to begin would be with setting up. Why you're such an interesting person to be attacking this topic and this problem with your career and with this conversation today gives just a thumbnail sketch of the major stops of your career. And then i'll probably ask some follow up questions on each just so we can lay good groundwork to the talk. All things carbon yep has. Thanks so much for having me here. My career actually started bit. Of course i think as many of your guests do in school at fancies of becoming a writer. I worked at reuters. They randomly put me in the commodities group to cover energy markets. Hadn't requested that just happened at three. People quit the summer that i joined that job. This may tell you a little bit about the quality of work at the time but got about sixty articles on energy markets that were distributed mining was eighteen years old at the time in you absolutely nothing about what i was writing about predictable to get some coverage got pretty hooked on global commodity markets. Why they were important. The geopolitics that goes into it especially energy markets. I thought it might continue on that path. I'm writing about it and graduating college checks rent levels in new york city and decided that something different might be a little bit more appropriate. I joined goldman and because of this interest in commodities got linked up with jaren which is the commodities group at goldman and really it was just a fascinating place to start my career so the commodities group goldman did en- does two main things on work with clients on their hedging needs. I worked with a lot of airlines utilities refiners and then after doing that for about two years and getting a good understanding of how these markets worked i gravitated to rhyme with dan goldman was allowed to klay. Prop trading business within the firm it may have subsequently changed names but i essentially ran an internal fund within the commodities group for about six years and really enjoyed it. Great group of people learned a lot about the market was quite happy there. Round two thousand ten. There's lots of changes going on within the industry within banking within trading and left to go to a company called glencore which is a private company at the time to run the derivatives business in the us. Doing essentially the same work that i've been doing at goldman and also transition time for public years later. I had always had some designs. Starting my own firm in did that in two thousand thirteen using capital from myself. Some of the partners that i'd worked with at glencore and then some institutional investors and ran that firm till about the earned a half two years tuchus through a little bit of bbl's part of the equation that being the fund that started in after leaving glencore and really during that period. And maybe you could even deeper back into both glencore. Your prop fun days at goldman. Talk us through what that world was like when you came into it and how it's changed so let's call you selfish in this on behalf of your investors you were trying to make money trading commodities. I would love crash course here. What were the major commodities that you were trading sort of in what ratios how much oil versus gas versus other. What were the major strategies. How is this whole world evolved. Because while i've had energy investors on podcast before you know it the team that debased in who have had a few times on their primary focuses on equities. I've never actually had a commodities trader. On before so i'd love the opportunity with you here even though we'll spend most of our conversation what you're doing today to learn about this space walk us through what it was like when you started and how it evolved. It's changed so much during that time. And i might emphasis withers at bb or even before that. While traded a number of different markets including some macro market's focus was always in again the actual underlying commodity itself equities not fixed of commodity companies end within that my specialty is really in energy products so crude oil crude goes through refinery and then produces refined products. There's no demand for crude inherently. There's demand for things like gasoline diesel in other products that come out of the refining process. That was really where. I cut my teeth and continued to trade throughout the bb l. time the commodities often were correlated. So even if. I didn't have a position on. I'd always keep a close. I'm was going on some of the other commodity markets and its inflected a lot. It'll be interesting. Actually as we dive into the carbon discussion. When i started there really wasn't any electronic trading and sort of hard to fathom now in two thousand three majority of the trading were bilateral transactions. They were a bit slower to occur. You had to assign different credit charges if you were doing. Crack spread trade with a shell or a valero had different credit metrics very different from the exchange clearing mechanisms that essentially all of the trading is done on now and also the dissemination of information a lot slower so it was all public information but fairly well guarded in terms of how people were doing analysis on say cushing oklahoma stocks or on inventory in your car and today in a win inventory. Data's release on every wednesday that data's instantly analyzed within people's trading systems and oftentimes. It seems moves a second after the data is released. it's been digested in traded. So it's just different. I think there was more little bit more interpersonal relationships with trading. When i started because the information is harder to come by we would spend a lot of time in asia getting to know the people who trading those markets and that became a bit more of the funnel. I think that's not really the case. Today you talk about the evolution of what i'll call alpha. Can i have to say alpha beta right like you could just belong oil for some reason over a long period of time but what were the strategies you already mentioned relationships the importance of maybe information. That's become less important as you were successful. Especially across like the period of biella maybe glencore in the most recent decade. What were the key strategies for making money as commodities trader and. How do you think that's changed for me. It was about having limited exposure to the absolute price of oil so oil prices up or down. Certainly there are cases where we've made him lost money by. Having views in either direction. I always found it more difficult because the price of oil could be correlated for example to the dollar getting stronger weaker where i didn't have a particular edge in understanding whether the dollar would go down others presumably better at getting on that where are alpha came was generally in relative value trades so basically we would have views that it's overused example but in the summer gasoline prices tend to do very well relative to these. There are changes that happened in configurations refineries that might favor on Versus the other so we were always trading fundamental qualitative strategies in those areas that we always had certainly our biggest success for those areas and often frankly cod wrong-footed if you were to make huge bet on a macro trend. Which was a little bit more difficult to discern. Do you think that there's an opportunity today in these kinds of strategies and doesn't look anything like maybe the opportunity size when you're at your most active. I do. I think that commodities. There's a lot of comments. I think for all of my years. Trading every year was the death of commodities as a trading thing sort of overuse narrative. Which i don't believe in. I think that they're going to be ample opportunities in commodity in both relative value and some broad trading strategies. I mean i certainly think might 'expertise was generally not in the kind of broader dollars weakening inflation but it is true that when you look at synchronize stimulus easy monetary policy things of that nature. There's a pretty interesting case for commodities over the next twelve in twenty four months especially with what's going on with long term oil demand changes in regulatory policy changes in investment structure from the oil majors. I think from a trading environment. It will be quite good actually. Let's talk now about a transition that you've made and i'd like to begin that transition with maybe describing what you're doing today but maybe we can even back up to. What insight did you have while still at bb l. Before he decided to move on from that business. And that kind of chapter of your life. Doing what you're doing now. What was the spark. Ignited your interest to change. I had always been interested in climate related issues. I would say for two reasons. One is near Open the science is apparent to anybody who chooses to look for can pay attention to it. Also as energy investor. I thought that a lot of the discussions that were going around climate. Many of them were helpful but also missing huge perspective. I think that people generally undress me just how big energy market is there's about two trillion dollars random investment in the energy industry. It's double that if you extend it to other fossil industries. That's a huge amount of capital every year. It's very slow to turn over and the other thing that always stuck in my head about the carbon issue that related to commodities is most financial assets as you're familiar with patrick are flow issues. How quickly growing sales which are long term trajectory in commodities are a bit of a mixture of both and carbon is what i'll wear if you need a barrel of oil bushel of corn. Need that actual bushel. So the inventory. The stock matters. Carbon is similar and actually more exaggerated where there was a lot of good work being done on energy transition for the flow of co two emissions. Not nearly enough. Because the flow with a little bit of a dip because of covid continues to increase per annum but the stock of co two in the atmosphere was about one point six trillion times where some variants in how that's measured about that number and the flow is only forty billion tons per preying on and for some reason that stock question just wasn't addressed in the conversation in spite of it being cleaned the science that it needed. I'd done a lot of nonprofit work while i was running fund especially met columbia. There's an energy policy center that has been on the board of since it started and helped fund something called a carbon management initiative about four and a half years ago and i just got hooked. This was an important thing to do. We needed to manage carbon in a big way to hit. Ib c goals. I had started just doing this. From a policy perspective. We would write papers. We still do get them. Into the right policymakers to help with things like carbon tax recommendations and other work but when i started digging into the industry there was just nothing there. There were no companies. Essentially doing this work. There's very fragmented demand for people buying carbon removal or carbon management services. And then when you looked at the science science assumed that we would get to. We were assuming a negative emissions industry of roughly ten gigabits per annum really inflicting in two thousand and thirty growing till two thousand fifty. We do nothing today. And just as a proxy the entire energy industry only moves about five gigi tons per annum of stuff so we need to build essentially an anti oil industry if you will or industry that can remove the stock of co two to acts the size of all of the oil and gas industry. And we need to do that. Now i love the framing of stock versus flow. And it's a really good excuse to talk about like the major levers and drivers here so one point six trillion versus forty billion tells you that probably the bigger bang for the buck would be removal or reduction of the stock versus reduction of the flow. I don't think i've ever heard anytime. Purchase issue it's reduction of the flow. That seems to be the thing like. Here's the annual production sources. I wanna talk about that too. And if we reduce them start to solve the problem but talk us through just why the stock is so important what we need to get that down to referred to the science a few times. I think it'd be helpful to hear your perspective on that science. What are the potential range of consequences understanding. This is a complex system. I'm sure some of it's not predictable. But what are the types of consequences were talking about. And then let's dig into the sources for stock and flow and how it might do something about it. I think the person who says wouldn't be very clear. The flow is essential. Lot of our work is also focused on that. We need hit net zero on an ongoing basis period. That has to happen. I think our point is a little bit that there's a lot of work being done in that flow analysis and in the investments that being made in that needs to continue in accelerate. But both things really do need to happen. And i think the other thing that we generally emphasize when we talk about carbon management broad base of the abatement or slowing the flow and also the removal of co. Two is that frankly. Most of the models assume that flow is going to zero or something in order of magnitude two zero. I'm very skeptical of that strongly encouraged by some segments of the economy. But when you look at for example we do a lot of work in this industry. It's meant in heavy industry. Huge metres eight percent and then roughly twenty percents extended it to broader swath of heavy industry. That's more than all the cars trucks planes but together in the world by a lot and there's very little innovation happening in that industry. There's a couple really promising. Companies are working with that. Are doing things like low carbon heat for example or decarbonising cement and steel process either through capturing co two emissions or through cheering it in the actual production process. But we're very far away from getting those huge numbers down towards zero and that's a little bit where we're focusing on key round out that sourcing pie for us. Oh heavy industry is twenty two percent of the emissions on an annual basis. What's the rest. Just be helpful. Level set people like years where the stock is continuing to increase because of an annual flow a cure the sources of those emissions. So if you look at it transport broadly speaking you can get a little bit more specific in terms of consumer vehicles in the asian trucks etc. The big buckets over transport heavy industry agricultural land use changes is a huge part of this in. It's one of the things that were very concerned with because as the world changes actually the stock of co two from certain natural sinks change get released into the atmosphere can become more problematic than obviously the power sector being the last big big bucket in. I would guess in those. We do see a lot of slivers of light very promising things. Ev's are on a great path although it is interesting if you look at the sectoral emissions from the consumer automotive sector in spite of great news from the tesla's of the world. They're not untracked at their parents targets. Which is pretty fascinating even when you take it. Sort of an acid in tow curve where electric vehicles are changing because existing stock of courses so high in the relatively long lived assets. We are unlikely to hit. The paris accord even in that sector let alone some the harder to decarbonise areas. Hauer been pretty fantastic and with the drops in solar. Tv's and a lot of that could enable changes in some of the other sectors and his quite encouraging what is still too slow. Can you describe the paris accord for us. Is that the most important of the global standards or sets of goals if not what are the other important one maybe to start there. What is it exactly almost like an inventory of the things that we're working towards. There's a number of different. I guess important things. Paris i think is very important. It is non-binding. Obviously be better if it were finding a core but just getting large nations coordinated in a way to commit to a cuoco. Carbon budget over time is a huge deal. It was a big accomplishment and we should have stayed in early. encouraged others in the paris accord. Hopefully plana the new administration. That will i actually think some of the things that are driving the market more today are more nationalized and even local policies. So there's a lot of things out there on the compulsory side like the us which is carbon price by any other name in europe has a huge annual turnover about a trillion dollars in impacts industry it impacts most if not all segments of the economy. And we're gonna see the uk linked to that who's brexit which is a great thing in the us. We don't have anything quite so intricate but we do have a number of state legislations. Like the cfs in california. So it's happening but it's happening in a very bespoke hundred in seventy different types of carbon taxes throughout the world. It would be much better. If these things were synthesized federal level there are important. Things happening out of bounds. Can we start to talk about carbon removal. I don't think this is something that a lot of people are aware of or understand the technology behind if we've got one point six trillion in the atmosphere. What are the ways that we can get it out. How much do we want to get out. What are the cutting edge technologies on this front. Who are the major players here to start to lay the picture here for us on the idea of carbon removal and its potential to be a huge important thing in the world. I think i may start with the imperative that we will need carbon removal even if we go on a more accelerated pace of slowing it down and we're certainly working towards that because we've accumulated so much co two. There's a lot of essentially global warming. That's been again because the stock is having an impact on the climate. The amount that we miss going forward will change the dynamics of that but we already have so much that we're going to have to remove From the atmosphere and the sort of two main categories of carbon removal. One is in the what's called the natural carbon removal. The second is in engineered hybrid forms. Broadly speaking natural carbon removal is things like tree planting trees protecting trees so called improved forest management. Which is essentially changing your kimber farming practices relative to a baseline to increase the carbon stock and choosing soils soils have net released about one hundred thirty billion times per annum which is a huge amount of co two since the industrial age. Because we've changed. How farm and use lands. That's another big area. That can be improved over time. There's also some developing things within the marine actor kelp for example. The biomass stores attuned. When stored properly in the ocean can sink of co two. And we do a lot of work in natural carbon movil in fact. It's by far the majority of what's happening today because the engineered side is very early on the engineered form of carbon removal again. All of these are defined by being essentially old technologies direct. Air capture. For instance is a seventy year plus technology. We've known how to capture not for a long time. But the deployment of it has been very recent and very very low and the main forms of carbon removal from an engineered perspective are direct air capture which essentially takes from the nba. There separates that co two from the nba air through a variety of different processes depending on the technology provider and then it either stores co two in the ground which has to be cleaned incredibly safe process. The liquefies its stores in japan. Storage just like oil and gas has been stored in the ground for perpetuity so to to when it's liquefied and we have tons of co two storage globally. There's about twenty trillion times of available geological storage of co two throughout the world. We will never store twenty trillion times of cotr if we do The earth is in some serious challenge to there's plenty of storage available to it. Other forms of engineered types of carbon removal are things like bio-energy coupled with ccs so biomass stores the atidza. Things like tinder trees will store but when the biological process when they living organisms die the co two and release back into the atmosphere. There's technology that could convert that biomass into something useful capture. Co two of the process in half a negative process. We talked to the first of the engineering solutions. Because it's so interesting. How does it work. Is it just like giant fans. What is the technology and it begs the question. What are the incentives of the technology's been around a long time and this is an important problem but it hasn't been deployed. How might that change is a change in. Incentives is it this many to get into corporations spending some money as part of their individualized efforts to reduce their own emissions. Were reversed them through air capture. Talk us through like not so much. The separation technologies but the gathering in capturing technologies descriptions. Good they do look like a giant series of very very big very accurate with different types of essentially solvent materials. That when run presumably on geothermal. Or if you're using fossil energy because he's our energy intensive process you have to take up for that. Co two capture during the process which the companies to the was separated by those fans. There's a couple of different processes which to the probably speaking separates the co two and then compresses it so that it can be they're stored in the ground or use a variety of commercial processes one of the interesting things at the tax essentially all open source. There's been a lot of debate about their capture price points etc so about ten years ago david keith. Who is one of the pioneers in this field. Along with a few others open with technology looked like a work published and people have been innovating off that sense. The reason it hasn't scaled is you're right in a world where it's free to omit a ton of co two and you don't get charged for it or you don't have a willingness to take care of it. There's zero reason to do directly capture. None it will always be easier. Always thermodynamics are are quite clear to either catcher's not from point source from concentrated stream or to source to the ground round. It's always going to be cheaper to do those things and we'll be in the future so it's only the presence that would say of incentives. They could be voluntary. Demand from companies like microsoft have these commitments to be carbon neutral microsoft's case carbon negative. It can be a carbon tax. It be an incentive to use what people like to call a full cycle economy product so taking carbon from the atmosphere converting that co two which absolutely can be done in. A number of people might team focus on this into useful products. The petroleum fuel or things like polymers for plastic production. And this can be done. But you need to create either a government or market incentive to accelerate those markets. Talk us through the range of corporate participation around the world. You'd probably know the us best. But what does that mean for microsoft. What is big company. That's made a commitment. How did they make that commitment. What does it mean. What did they do to fulfil it. If you think about the corporation as a unit and a key player here what's happening in that world. Yeah i mean. I guess two thousand twenty was a lot of things but it was probably also the year of pledges endeavor. Day the a net zero something or another alliance nonsmo- and listen. Many of them are difficult to discern. That will be any meaning towards those things but there has been a cohort very large enterprises. That are taking mysteriously. There's not a uniform approach to how people feel with their next zero as a firm. Carbon direct is working with thirteen clients. Global they're big. The co two foot pinch of our client faces up six hundred fifty million tonnes per annum which is roughly the size of germany. It's quite a lot of cit in their different perspectives. About what to do with that microsoft has been a fantastic partner. And they've taken a very clear stance. Bill gates has a big advocate of directly capture for on time. They've taken a very clear stance that they wanna be. Not just neutral. Carbon negative since the company was formed in nineteen seventy five so what that requires is both reducing their ongoing emissions through buying renewable power other texas inability in also putting together a portfolio of carbon removal stuff and that is both growing trees. It's working with soils increase. The intensity of the soil programs and it's also looking at and purchasing from innovative engineered forms of carbon move director capture other companies have different perspectives. They're more focused on the flow on the abatement. The focused on incorporating things like low carbon steel into their supply chain. We help companies with that. There's a range of different approaches. And i would say it's going in the right direction but i think in this comes from somebody who works very extensively in the voluntary market if people are betting that these voluntary pledges are going to fix this. That is a bad bet. They're not big enough. They're not up to the scale. There needs to be a lot more. That happens if you think forward. Let's assume we solve this. And it's twenty fifty and we've reduced net zero or negative on an annual mission basis and we're actively pulling carbon out of the atmosphere. What's your best. Guess as to the major sources of making that possible thinking about natural versus engineered. Is it feasible. That i've seen some really prominently. Toby lewke comes to mind. I think he's got trees in his twitter profile. He's planted like some insane number of trees. What do you think the right balances between these types of solutions at the broadest category level of natural versus engineered. And what should we be focused on like people that are interested in this. Where do you think the bang for the buck comes from. If we're successful shop flights a fantastic example of somebody doing it. Well as a client of ours. He's done an amazing job with ways. Pushed the firm on this. I would say they in. We advocate very strongly for a portfolio approach. That's not a way of dodging the question. It's not a way of earning values on different things. It simply when you look at doing over ten gig a tons of stuff. You can't get there with any of these individual projects you just can't at least in the timeframe we are big advocates of using land trees natural resources. Well so that they are logically sound. They do no harm in. They have carbon benefits. But what people have estimated that tree-planting can do for example this trillion tree idea. That's floating around are crazy. They are not grounded in science at all. We don't have enough land. We don't have a good enough measurement a weather many of these projects are actually storing co two relative to a baseline many times. They do not. They rely on crazy counterfactual analyses which are incorrect. So we can do it within that sector. But i think you're limited to sort of the single giga time expansion when you're looking at soil. Carbon tree planting types of biological approaches. And the other thing that will emphasize is that those biological approaches are great and should be encouraged. They need to be done essentially in perpetuity. Because if you grow a tree and even if you manage it correctly that will die when a treat is is here to back into the atmosphere so whether it lasts for fifty years or twenty years you need to address that when you look at some of the short term cycles that some of these projects do yourself for nothing. Because essentially the carbons just going to be released back into the atmosphere you need more durable stored so she it and then when i look at direct air capture. One of the positives is that it is technically infinitely scalable. You can put it anywhere you have access to both storage availability and also cheap in liable renewable power and you don't want to steal that renewable power from something else so if you put a direct air capture plan in it sucks up. All the renewable power and a coal plant continues to operate. That's like naughty corbin benefit. You should be doing that. But essentially it's infinitely scalable. The problem is expensive today. The prices declining think quick quickly. But it's expensive and they take on. I'm laid plans. Take a million tiny year. Carbon engineering plan would take four years. Three and a half years to build. Were not dealing with an infinite time horizon. So i think that direct air capture can get a needs to get to the gigaton scale not in an acceptable timeframe. So we need all these. I'm gonna ask them the. I'll call the villain test. Let's just assume there is the demand side grow somehow whether by regulatory requirement national laws or whatever carbon prices. Whatever or bottom up you know. Microsoft isn't being forced to do this but they're doing it anyway. That does seem to be a legitimate wave like a bottom up demand growth in demand to solve this problem. The villain tests question is. Let's say you didn't give a damn about the earth or the atmosphere you just wanted to make as much money as possible as somebody that was fulfilment for that demand to reduce carbon in the atmosphere. If you're that villain what would you be doing right now. Kind of business. Would you be building. I think even in the villain tissue would-be fulfilling something that needs to happen because of how limited the industry is now. There's a lot that needs to be built. I mean i think early financially focus i think infrastructure around co two storage the pipeline assets storage infrastructure. Taking cit that's being captured from point source to gear capture their couple of great companies. Doing it now but not enough. I think that there is a big commercial opportunity there. I think that there will be a few parts of the circular economy that work. Well where. I can see some areas where you can do to conversion for example into carbon monoxide which is a huge market. It's one hundred billion dollar market for polymers and other things. I think there's a pathway forward where you can actually make that sort of green carbon monoxide at a cheaper price than traditional stuff. I'm very skeptical that you'll be able to take. Co two from the atmosphere and turn it into like petroleum type fuel at anything. That's competitive so. I doubt that would be a good place to be a villain anytime soon but i can see some of these areas having just a pure commercial result in. I think that that's going to expand over time through the existing to industries of. We'll call it. Fossil fuels and clean energy on the what else to call a win solar cetera. No emission energy creators. What are the major trends that you're seeing in these two spaces. Maybe we could start with fossil fuels kind of interesting that what seems to be sort of the tail end of this thing. We had aramco plans to be a publicly traded company. What's going on in the world of fossil fuels that you think is interesting. What's changed the most. The energy sector is like now a miniscule part of the stock market which is just fascinating. I remember i started my career. It was like twelve thirteen fourteen percent. Now it's like one or two percent. What do you see there in the world. Fossil fuels first and then. We'll go to sustainable or clean energy on the fossil side segregate. What's actually happening in the world that will contribute or not climate impact and then the financial assets. I mean i think while the market has done a pretty good job of divesting for you because if you just own the s and p five hundred you've miraculously divested from a significant amount of your energy portfolio. Companies have done very well. And i think that there's other areas where the financial markets have done things like increasing capital costs to the oil and gas industry. So if you look at essentially the embedded carbon tax in the market but eighty dollars hundred dollars. Time in that's basically backed out from looking at what i need to finance on across the capital basis a clean energy versus fossil. It's significantly different. That being said we still use pre covid likely in two thousand twenty one hundred barrels a day of the stuff so even if the stocks are trading at lower ps and multiples whatever the case may be world uses under million barrels a day of petroleum based things and that will be higher into dozen twenty-one than it was in two thousand nineteen. The rate of growth is definitely slowing. Taylor will be in aviation fuel for next year. Because plying i think could be structurally impaired transport demand for cars are having a marginal decline in gasoline but the level is staying pretty high but petrochem demand really good. There's gonna be a lot of infrastructure spending so. I think it's important for people to note from a climate perspective. That divestment on its own does not do anything. You've changed asset ownership from one person to another maybe indirectly there some capital cost. Change but Digress too much investment Friendliest fancy cars and he got very concerned on climate. He never drove the cars. Very expensive collection. You never drove them but he wants to be a four person so he sold all the cars to somebody else. The problem is the person who sold them to is going to drive them. If you can hear energy company and you're selling all of your cars to someone who's actually going to use them. The net zero emissions are not going down because of this. So i think we're in that part of the market phase right now and i think that's also why people will be disappointed that in the next couple of years the level of co two emissions at for having are nowhere near consistent with the paris accord. Talk about ev. A halt from the consumer perspective. So i'm increasingly of this view. That convenience is sort of everything and prices part of convenience for sure. I would put myself in the camp of if you just told me. There is an easy way for me to switch my personal consumption of energy which is called an in all ways transport home and otherwise in a relatively neutral cost setting or even pay more. I would certainly do it. And my guess is a lot of people would so talk us through. The market dynamics that consumer dynamics whatever you think is important on changes in clean energy my understanding is the cost of solar and some of these other things has come way way down how much missouri in those sorts of things. Walk us through this part. I think the first thing. I would emphasize that while there. Certainly some parts of the market will pay a premium and things like that one should assume that willingness to pay for this stuff is zero. Have a client. His a very large producer of consumer goods. They've tested all of this whether it's detergent and other types of consumer products it's zero. It's not a little bit. It's absolutely zero. You need to deliver to consumers again. Writ large something that is cost competitive or cheaper than the existing product or has substantial differentiated benefits in the when we invest capital. I always remember when these people spend billions and billions of dollars to figure out a have. We don't need to learn that lesson again. In areas like cower where it's just legitimately cheaper to use wind and solar and then where you are and again the intermittent issues. It's gonna win out. People say to win out through market forces. I think that's the wrong term. Because we need to remember all of these markets whether it's oil and gas renewable solar girls subsidize they all have some type of embedded tax subsidy positive or negative. It could be a gasoline tax penalties for driving. It could be incentive structure but just for the price consumer whether it's financed by the treasury or disability cost needs to be at or below the competition in for power. It looks really good. I think for. Evt's were five years away from life cycle ib ownership being cheaper than fossil cars but again the car stock last time and people will be driving my friend's car straight around for a period. I think those are the two broad trends one trend that i would like to pick up that unfortunately hasn't lot of the work that we do at columbia is in policy focus versus in policy and frankly in the market to really look critically at what we call. The love lies cost of carbon abatement. So what that means is whether it's a treasury making a decision or a company. What are you paying in dollars per tonne to remove a ton of co two or to avoid time co two and for some reason. We just don't do policy this way. We basically i wanted to sell a million electric vehicles at a cost. You don't look at it. At what am i. Paying per time. Voiding and i hope that we get to a point where we look at this much more critically because some of the things that have accelerated including. Evt's is good have come at significant cost per time so electric vehicles subsidies can be five hundred dollars time they're declining and that was to encourage the market. It's a good thing but we need to with a finite budget and a finite amount of time really look closely at. How subsidies are you. talk us through. The geopolitical will landscape of the world both snapshot and movie so yet the put governments in like a couple major categories. What are the major categories of of government stance towards all of this stuff as a snapshot today. And how do you think that movie plays alec. What are the rates have changed that you observe. It's a europe and canada are probably in the room today. In terms of compulsory markets so auto adjust announced a carbon tax can hundred seventy five dollars ton escalating carbon taxed. That's incredible i mean that's going to the above the price of direct air capture when it hits level i that's quite important. The eu carbon price now as thirty three euros ton give take which is really approaching where it should be. I think the price of carbon should be the price that it costs to remove in store so to give an actor market reflection but it's climbing from thirty five which is great china. Who knows just legitimately don't know the net zero announcement. I think is a good thing when the us wasn't willing to make it. I think china if they can make money things like solar innovation electric vehicles. They're going to do it. So if the rest of the world does lead a little bit in terms of pricing things. I think you'll see a significant amount of innovation on the carbon removal hugely. Skeptical of what we've seen. They've got announced number of reforestation goals. And they have a long history of this in a long history of it working corley and not delivering the carbon benefits that have been stated. Japan's made a net zero goal as well and then of course the us. I'm pretty optimistic. Actually about dozen twenty-one in matt. I think the makeup of this election between the more centrist for lack of better term part of the democratic party. And what i'm seeing is slow and not enough. But some movements from the republicans that are supportive of innovation around climate other types of things at carbon the carbon tax by other names and i think a significant uptake in orange e from the us government on climbing invasion. I forgot to ask earlier about just consequences. I mentioned that we didn't go into it. Will you think about whatever the peak awareness of whenever an inconvenient truth came out from al gore. My living memory. That was sort of like this. Wake up moment for a lot of people probably because it was an approachable presentation of what was going on. What do you think today. What have we learned since then. Good bad ugly different than what was said back. Then what your mind are the primary consequences that people should be aware of. Should we be unsuccessful in both flow and stock removal over the next hundred years or whatever. The timeframe you think is appropriate. Yeah unfortunately we didn't learn much from inconvenient truth because half of all emissions since the industrial age has happened since that documentary was released which is stunning. I think is an important document but in terms of what happened. I guess it could have been worse without it right. You don't know the counterfactual right by the way it quite likely would have been worse. So that's a good thing but we haven't learned a time. I think that when you look at the climate protests that have happened in a lot of the rhetoric from a young people. I think it's great and galvanizing action. It's not true that there's some type of binary event said if we made it another one billion tons of co two is all over. The doesn't work like that. The will be escalating impacts on things like ocean acidification and how we feed people globally obviously california with forest fires be seen in the last few years that will accelerate and move to other areas and unfortunately like most of the challenge is going to screw poor people and poor nations a lot more than wealthy nations will be to adjust where luxury condos in miami are ill and we will find a way to continue to grow. But areas with core infrastructure flooding and all sorts of things can really set a lot of progress back and it will not happen in one thing overnight coming. Frankly you saw a lot of people expected that you would see some type of climate disaster. We'd all get together in combat would fix. It is not going to be like. It's gonna be more veracity of hurricanes it's going to be more incidences like in california which on their own. There's some improvements in attribution science which can show specific events and that they're caused by climate change. Although that scientists incur faked it will remain imperfect and it will just be this trend as more severe challenge. What have we missed in terms of major players or technologies or really anything that we haven't covered yet you're focused on and you know we need to cover. The audience would be interested in regulation matters for all of the two trillion dollars in energy spending and all of the five trillion dollars of commodities spending broadway. There's been some reticence to get into the market. Although we're doing it there's some other really smart investors who are getting into the space now because well. We can't figure this out because there could be a change in regulation things if that's true for all five trillion dollars so i think the key is to understand where things are under writable today and then you have a little bit of a view on where the tailwinds are going within it but not to simply avoid a sector. I think that'd be one message the other thing. That's really important to emphasize. And i know this goes a little bit against the background in trading and running a fund trading on markets. And you can make money doing it in that's great. I think there's an idea that's a little bit coming to the fore that we disagree with that simply scaling unquote. The market will be a good thing. It won't and i'm talking specifically about the voluntary carbon market so what people are willing to pay to wash away their sins or or whether it's regulatory market you're literally paying for the right to minute. Hundred zero to we need to ground truth. The quality elements of all of the things that are solutions in the voluntary carbon markets through rigorous science. That we understand that we're actually getting a ton of carbon benefit from those. The history of these are really n very important as we go forward that there needs to be a science. I coach to hold these things. The market needs to come second third and last to what we haven't talked really about the active investing side of what you do if you split your business today. It's sort of advisory in investing advisory. I think you talked about some clients like shop. Microsoft have general sensor like helping big corporations think through their options what they should do structure strategies etcetera on the investing side. Walk us through that again. Investing tends to be at least some financial interest of course people that put money into technologies or companies. Or whatever it is that are going to be helping with this problem. How do you think through that. One of the major categories of investment. What has you most excited that. We haven't talked about one of the sorts of things that you're backing at. What scale aixing. Both our advisory business in the investing that we do is science comes first in both of those things. we've got twenty five scientists. It got a variety of expertise from natural carbon removal to engineer. And everything we do with a recommending something to a client or putting capital into it have to do rigorous analysis on it is unfortunate part of this esp landscape that there are a lot of claims that could be made by companies looking for many. That technology is unproven endure. It does not actually provide the carbon benefit. So we'd be real rigorous analysis. I'm both the visor. Side of the investment side works the science behind it solid and sound and then when we look to deploy money in. This doesn't make changes over time. We're firmly in this growth equity part of the investing cycle. And by that. I mean we don't do venture there are some good venture investors out there on the space but i need my team to be able to look at something in a real world scenario. It's been cited. We can test it get real data. Matt company has a customer or customers so that we're not the one in saying yes this works. It's a great idea. There's some type of commercial validation even if the revenue numbers are low. There's something there for our strategy which may not be for all you know. We invest in the capital light part of the business. There are essentially a dozen or so very important you can think of is like the intel inside for carbon industry. Companies that are technology focused that integrate with larger projects to reduce eliminator. Use the c o two could be a point source capture company where a client like lafarge would pay for the point source to remove the to for the regulatory or use case reasons that may change over time in part of the reason. We have the advisory businesses as demand increases for the market. There will be more project financing type capital. That's going to be needed into the industry because you have a little bit of a more direct revenue strain but for now. We're finding sweet spot. In these technology growth equity rounds were new. This would be a just an awesome masterclass on all things. Carbon reduction and removal. When i met you most of this stuff i had no clue about. So i'm sure people will be really interested to hear. Just first of all the scope of it is staggering. I mean the number of different trillion dollar numbers that you can throw out there that we need to change staggering. So i i so appreciate the time today. I think you know my traditional closing question for everybody which is to ask for the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you. I have to say my my wife will you know and we met in the uk. And i was here in new york. Say we live in new york now. So i i agree with in his emma blige to point that out i love it i love it. Simple simple drew will john. Thanks so much for the time today. Really appreciate the top here and for ut everyone else's while if you enjoyed this episode check out join colossus dot com there. You'll find every episode of this podcast completely transcripts show notes and resources to keep learning. You can also sign up for our newsletter colossus weekly where we condense episodes to the big ideas quotations and more as well as the best content we find on the internet every week

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BPR Full Show 7/1/20: Pacing & Bracing

Boston Public Radio Podcast

2:46:40 hr | 11 months ago

BPR Full Show 7/1/20: Pacing & Bracing

"Support for Boston public radio comes from DC you offering auto loan refinancing? You can learn more about your monthly payment and interest rate options at DC you dot org. What will dc you mean to you insured by NCUA membership required. I'm Jared Allen Filling in for Jim. Brady ahead on Boston. Public Radio while cove and nineteen visibly shuttered the service and entertainment sectors. Virtually no other industry has been immune now millions are stranded amid the worst public health crisis in a century, the Joe Health Coverage, but is not lost. Thanks to a patchwork of insurance programs. Those were suddenly jobless. Don't have to be uninsured. In a few minutes. We'll be joined by economist John Gruber till learn more about these programs I'm Andrea Lebron's sitting in for Margery, eagan. Legacy of the Vietnam War has been trying and films like platoon and apocalypse now. But in the five bloods director Spike Lee puts the focus on black experience. During the war, it's earned widespread acclaim for telling the story of black veterans, but not everyone is happy. Pulitzer Prize winning author Viet Thon Win says that while lease intent is noble film is still replete with the same unfair tropes of Vietnamese people as the others later, he'll join us to tell us more. This is Boston public radio I'm Jerry Bohan here with Andrea, Cabral or filling in for Jim and Marjorie. Andrea Holo. I have missed you terribly. I have missed you too, and we don't even get to be in the same studio, but we're just one studio part where one studio apart we can see each other so close and yet so far. We'll get closer by the by the next hours. We'll be much closer. Well with an increase of corona virus infections, churning to the south and West Anthony Fauci told a Senate committee yesterday that he's worried that the nation is going in the wrong direction. He's also says he's concerned that. We have the wrong attitude about all of this earlier this week. He told CNN Wia Cova. Vaccine, not even help us to get hurt immunity. There is a general anti-science anti authority anti vaccine feeling among some people in this country, an alarmingly large percentage of people relatively speaking, so, is there anything that our leadership can do to get us off? This corona virus collision course joining US online for his take on this and other corona virus news is art caplan. He's a doctor is William F, Virginia Committee Chair and Director of the division of medical ethics. Set NYU's school medicine high art. Art I have I have especially missed. Speaking with you over these last four months. How you very good Indra. Doing well I'm Socially distancing up in Richfield Connecticut in my house and You know it's it's getting a little tiresome. feel like, I'm like the counterparty CRISCO. Now I think we're definitely all feeling that, but this you know it's. It's sort of interesting what we're seeing Dr Vouching now because I, think I think most people who've been paying attention believed that he had been. You know sort of muzzled by the trump administration. They put him out there under the sense of obligation that you should be hearing from some health professionals, but they clearly were sort of monitoring what he was saying, and in some cases you know actively disagreeing or undermining what he was saying in the press conferences. He now seems to be a bit unleashed. and. He's now speaking. You know you know more forcefully about this and sort of saying in variety of different interviews. Things I think he's probably wanted to say for a long time, so you know. He talks about an inability to get to hurt. Immunity I think we have to where we have to start is defining hurt immunity for people. What does it actually mean? Yeah Andrew I think we're hearing from him a little more because he's been in venues like Senate and house hearings. I'm still not sure that the White House and the president particularly listening to him or they're appointed You know Cova Committee. It's been bothering me that they don't meet with them. They don't show up regularly. We don't hear him in that forum. We I think he's getting some other forum so still the disconnect is there. I think between the science advisers the White House. That's a big big problem. Herd immunity, so it's a kind of weird name. It comes from animals. Who Got Injected against certain diseases the heard if you get to a certain high high percentage of either animals or people that get vaccinated against the disease, you get an additional benefit beyond personal protection. It's harder for the virus to jump around from person to person. Because so many people let's say ninety five percent had been vaccinated. So there are fewer targets and you get sort of a group benefit. If you will does that make sense yes. And so. The power of vaccination isn't just individuals getting vaccinated. It is getting that herd or group immunity achieved because then the whatever diseases measles or covert, or whatever it is dies out faster. So now. CNN has issued a poll saying that about a third of Americans. This is staggering to me would not get a vaccine because all of we've all that. We have been hearing since the beginning of this year. When we realize that this was bearing down on. This was the only way we're going to get out of. This is through a vaccine. How quickly can that vaccine come? So we have a sense of why so many people would be resistant. We know that there have been You know the Anti Vaccine. As. It's described I, is there a coalescence here? You know we do know why there's resistance To get confidence and trust in any vaccine, whether it's a Kobe vaccine or measles, vaccine or flu vaccine whatever it is. There's really three elements that secure that trust one is. WHAT'S THE GOVERNMENT POLICY? The second is what a doctors and nurses saying because they're very trusted when they recommend getting a vaccine, you know that that counts of people and the third is If you will, who's making it and that's the pharmaceutical industry. So if you look at cove in the government, policy is fast. Warp speed, right. That's the language they like to use race speed accelerate. That makes people nervous. They think you're cutting corners. They think you're not gonNA get full data. I think trump and the administration. Are So desperate to get this vaccine out that it's not to really be proven safe. So I am absolutely sure that what we should be saying is we want to go warp speed to a safe vaccine. The word safe should always be there. We should always insist that no corners will be cut. It. We're going to fully test any Cova vaccine. That's crucial to trust doctors and nurses well. We haven't heard much from them because you don't have a vaccine, but they're gonNA play a key role in moving that hesitancy worry if they really if your doctor, the doctor UCI says it's time to get this thing that counts a lot with people pharmaceutical industry making it all. That's trouble because their reputations. Poor right people don't trust pharmaceutical companies, but if we really said, look the vaccines free, they're not profiteering. They're not trying to dump this scene out there. They just make big bucks. If we can knock down the financial obstacles that will go to trust so. No. You can't just talk about speed. That's really a big mistake. It freaks people out. This is sort of like you know. Guess what? I drive as fast as I can in his recklessly. They can to get where I'm going. Trust me, it'll be okay. Well you know, and it's an excellent point to make that you know the entire you know pandemic, and how the we failed to respond to covid nineteen has been politicized and the vaccine as well because it was a means to a political end, the ability to say that this is not as bad as everyone has been telling me that it is in terms of trump's response in that will get out right. There's a miracle coming right where there's a magic bullet. Worry, so so tell me. How long does it take? To really do an adequate. Clinical trial you know the number of people how you scrub that data. What the how? I've never actually known that they're just there. And then there's sort of done, and then you get the results. So. Every first of all every vaccine goes through the same path, historically attested in a dish see. The virus can be killed by some agent. If that looks good, you tried on animals. If that looks good, go I in humans for safety, tiny number of human, probably twenty thirty volunteers. Then, you start giving a little bit bigger dose to the next group of volunteers. Maybe one hundred to see if they're getting a response at all to. Let's say covert virus. They've been exposed to the vaccine. You try to see if there's any activity of building any immunity. And then Andrea you go up to thirty, thousand or so people a big big. Testing those who are vaccinated against those in a placebo. You're trying to see if natural infection just what's going on out there? In terms of covid infecting people this the vaccinated group do better. They get fewer infections. Are they less sick, so that would take normally year and a half that whole process describing, and it presumes you're lucky and you've got a vaccine. That's a winner. Vaccines Fail, for example we don't have an AIDS vaccine been looking for that for twenty five years, and we don't have one works. So arts spe- staying with axes moment it's not too early to start talking about flu, season and flu vaccines. You have outlined. You've described as a doomsday seem not that we really WANNA. Depress people as we're heading into the holiday weekend, but the there's a there's a sort of a scenario looming that we should be aware of and that we should be in front of tells. So, Tony thought she said he was worried. That covert is going in the wrong direction I'm freaked out. It's really going in the wrong, you know. It's exploding in the south and southwest. we still haven't seen the price of letting everybody out to bars in cramming at parties and standing next to one another at the beach and the rest of it. We're still GONNA. See worst numbers and I. Worry that that's going to spread back to other parts of the country. You know we travel and people move around There's a quarantine I don't think Massachusetts did it but New York Connecticut? Have said people should not be coming up from the southwest. Unless they quarantine themselves for two weeks once they get up here, so you know that's how nervous the authorities are about a return. But. Here's here's my happy fourth of July. I was waiting. Dog and take. you don't have to listen baseball. Listen to me battling the. Hot Dog so The the cope with outbreak occurred in March. It was the end of the flu season flu season was just ending. Flu Season's coming back. It always does We do have a vaccine, but it usually is only about forty percent effective. It's not a great vaccine in flu jams up. Emergency rooms kills usually thousand sometimes tens of thousands of people. It's a little bit hard. Initially figure out what's the flu? And what's covid symptoms look similar. Flu Season is going to be here just as cove and maybe exploding back around the country again whether from incubators in the south of the US or from other countries whatever? And then here's another grim to other criminal news. It looks like there's a new swine flu circulating around in Asia that's just been identified. You remember old friend swine flu, so both versions could could come back at the same time plus. Parents sadly. Are, not getting their kids vaccinated because they're not going to the doctor. The routine of you know get kid vaccinated. Go To camp or school is broken down so the old measles vaccine isn't being given out tremendous decline in measles vaccination. We know this because we know what the orders are for the supply the vaccine, you could get a quadruple whammy in the winter. Cova swine flu old flu measles all circulating around at the same time, and while I hope that doesn't happen and I love to be on, and we can say a dope by was for worrying about it. You got a plan for it. And I owed planning for it yet. I'm going home now and I'm GonNa. I'm no one will see me until twenty twenty two spring with Robin appear, but you know what you know as bad as this is. This isn't as bad as it sounds. It has to be said, and it has to be emphasized, and people need to wrap their heads around the enormity of this pandemic on top of the regular illness, seasons that we experience and the need for vaccination and I'm just very worried that no one's grasping it. You know it's it's this is how bad it is. The NFL is saying we're GONNA start our schedule and time with fans right right? I'm in October I guess. Are you kidding me I? Mean come on. That's not gonNA happen. You can't do that. Teams traveling around the country fans and stadiums. We know that the old break the first one started partly fuelled by a soccer match member in Italy and France between Italy and France and. Both countries had terrible outbreaks because the fans were spitting on each other and yelling at each other, and you know in close contact my point being. We're not planning for the worst scenario which I think he got to include. We're planning for the best one right. Everything's good football's back. You know, and that would just so exceptional that we're somehow going to be. Be Able to overcome a virus, and in fact, it's interesting that you raise the NFL because you wrote a piece. With Li Li I I think the last name is pronounced about Houston Astros. Fans at a major league baseball. Games what's the why why it's nuts? Why would they do that again? They want to reopen baseball baseball. Fans will know they've got sixty game. mini, season, plan, and then onto some play offs. But baseball travels. They're not doing what the NBA is doing. which is go to Orlando put them in a bubble. Cut off contact test all the time you know. They know what's going on with the people inside the Disneyworld. Athletic Facilities Baseball's traveling around. WHO At this point? In time with Texas, showing the Kinda rates they have could be sending a team from Texas to me to to go play in stadiums with fans from other parts of the country believe that's called a gigantic pathway for the virus, and to have an owner. Come out and say yeah, yeah, well, we gotta get the fans back, and they wanna drink beer and enjoy themselves. I would love that, but we can't do that. That's that's not I mean it's again. It's fueling this idea that. Everything's done. Everything's over. We're back to normal. Meanwhile, we got more deaths than any other country in the world. We got more cases exploding and we have this. Lurking danger into the fall that other diseases could complicate things. We WanNA get people starting to say you know. I gotta get a flu shot this year. If you're ever going to get one, this is the year to get one better. Try make sure my kids get vaccinated. Maybe I let that slip, but I don't want that to happen. I don't WanNa kid going in with Kovin, and. And measles or having a measles outbreak take place at the same time. You got a coded one. Instead we're year. Bring about fans at baseball. What's so interesting because you bring up a psychology here and margarine I? talked a little bit about this last week. This is something difficult to wrap your head around. Because you look out your window and you don't see it, it's not like. Bombs falling are terrorist attack. Re See the carnage afterward. You just don't see it, and then as you point out if you turn and you see the Houston Astros stadium filled with fans, you might rightly or not rightly thing, but you might think that everything is. All those people are fine, not knowing what they might go home to what they would. They turn around and due to their families. But. People must be trying to counter your. That's what drives me nuts when the president won't wear a mask partly I understand he doesn't need to wear a mask. Everybody else because everybody around him has tested. He won't go into building unless they've tested everybody that he's going to be exposed. I mean they built a bubble around the guy I get it. But the mask is symbolic, not just politics, you pro, trump or trump? He's the role model for public health behavior when he won't do it or pence won't do it or other leaders wherever the governor's. Whoever won't do it. Then, they're saying Yep, things are good. Things are normal and just look at the rate. I was looking at the numbers this morning about. Death across the South West in the south, and it's like come on, we're we're the middle of A. Raging fire! It's not embers, and you got a role model for us. Because as you rightly say, you can't see this thing. It's a silent killer. Things look normal unless you work in a hospital which I do, and so you get reports of what it's really like in the Er and so on, but Yeah I think that that bothers me a lot because. People should be role modeling for us. Aren't doing it. We know it's it's kind of interesting. NBC's got a story. A one of the reporters Allen Smith wrote a piece and I I read the headline. It says unlike trump pence encourages wearing masks to prevent the coronavirus. Now. My immediate reaction to that was that this is nonsense. What a terrible headline, and then I thought, but the reporter is probably torn between wanting to promote at least someone in the administration. Encouraging mass wearing and the truth, which is up until very recently. None of no one in the administration was promoting mask, wearing and people probably have forgotten this because we're under this barrage of daily terrible news, but in the very beginning of the outbreak. Trump was publicly saying that it was only affecting the blue states. And it was a clear signal that we don't need to care about this very much. Because only Democrats will get it and you know he has a base that listens to to nonsense words like that and actually those words make sense to him to to those people. And so he you know now that everybody could. Everybody knew everybody said this is going to migrate. It's a virus. That's what viruses do so the fact that there are states that are three or four weeks behind New York maybe even a month behind New York it's coming now. It's there now. It's in the red, so called Red States, and now the the people who were you know sort of not wanting to. Do you know have this mask wearing? Are Now all on board. Including Mitch McConnell so I mean the idea that they're coming late to the party. Especially pence where he just presided over an event where they had this gigantic choir singing at the top of their lungs, doing the very worst thing you can do. You know I'm torn. I want them to promote masks. I think it's responsible behaviour, but I'm not gonNA forget that they that it took them four months to get here. Very well, you know. Trump for a long time is seem to be running on a political platform of vote for me. I haven't killed yet. This you don't have to mess. Things are good. Let's get out. Let's get back to work. That's I mean in part that is a political stance because he also knows that it shutting down, the economy does do terrible damage and leaves people with mental illness. Problems stressed and We were joking about social isolation, but for many people that is a terrible thing to have to endure. They don't do well or they're cognitively disabled. They're really in trouble, so you know fair enough. We got work the economy, but the whole idea that it was either come out or stay in. Trump was running on the dem's lock you up and I'm GONNA. Let you free. We came out. Stupid didn't come out with mass didn't come out with social distancing. You know it was just sorta like Yep. Let's open. The restaurant and everybody gets a tattoo at the tattoo parlor. There was a way to do it. That was a compromise. You know safe behavior best. You could do when you come out. but come out and let's do that, and probably we should have said, and if you're elderly or high at risk can't come out, but we could've done both and we didn't. And that's the price of. Pure politics I think I. Know Three people who will not be in South Dakota on Friday for the Fourth of July celebration at. Mount Rushmore. I've been to Mount Rushmore. Of Opportunity for social distancing there. When you have seventy five hundred people, they are handing out masks, but I understand there's no mask and I think they're likely to set the whole place on fire, which was a different problem with. You're not actually fireworks. Yeah but again there's a very symbolic event it would be. It will be televised. I would expect everybody including the president to have a mask on great if he wants to celebrate their Apparently, they're not doing that. The North Dakota government said No. Governor said no social distancing. No mask-wearing I mean that prohibited, but not not required and I think we're way past You know a nice idea to think about it. Well, it's inexplicable to me. This level of irresponsibility I certainly. I questioned whether or not there's ever going to be any sort of accountability for that, but for her to be encouraging, this is just astonishing and she's. It's not like she's going to hear from trump that no, we think there should be social. Distancing really needs to have these large gatherings so that. Can you know make speeches? And, it does seem to me. Part of the message it is rally is I'm the person to send you back to normality when you see the other guys. They're all messed up and it's more misery, so my future's better. That's nice. It just doesn't you know. Overlap with reality or science or the numbers I mean that whole idea that he keeps saying you know we've got more cases because we do more tests, right? By the way I believe about controlling my weight. I threw my scale away. It works for lots of things like that. But the real number is in cases. It's hospitalizations. Voting, they have nothing to do with more testing. You can use that as a pretty good measure. I see in Houston the Er they I see user getting full Dallas same thing hospitalizations up up up. So that tells you what you need to know the idea that you don't want to test. is so. Out of it, relative to how to control pandemic, the other reality is which you keep forgetting. What's the situation in Europe? They're under control. Not Right? There's gotta be political accountability for that. One would hope art. It sort of goes back and forth sometimes we chat, and it's it's very uplifting. Other Times. It's not as uplifting, but it's always always always educational and needed. It's been very good to talk to you today. To Talk to all right Art Kaplan joins US every week. He's the Doctors William Ethin- Virginia Conley Midi Chair and director of the division of Medical Ethics at Nyu School of Medicine. Coming up what options to people have who have lost their jobs and their health insurance MIT economist Jonathan Gruber joins us for that conversation on eighty nine seven W. H. Boston. Public radio. Boston Public Radio Jared Bowen in with. Andrea Cabral were in for Jim and Marjorie today. Millions of people are without a job because of the pandemic and with the nation on the verge of being hit with the second wave of the coronavirus. Many of them don't have the health insurance they need if they get sick. According to the most recent data from the Commonwealth Fund forty one percent of those who lost a job or WHO's spouse loss, ajab relied on that job for health insurance twenty percent of those. Those people have not managed to get alternative coverage so joining us on the line to talk through the options that are out there from ACA exchanges, too. The Cobra Plan is Jonathan Gruber. He's the Ford professor of economics at Mit. He was instrumental in creating both the Massachusetts health care reform and the affordable care act. His latest book is starting America. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth and the American dream, so he will be taking your calls at eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty, nine seventy. Again that number is eight, seven, seven, three Oh one eighty, nine seventy. If you just lost your job and your insurance and you want to know what to do, he can advise you and again. Our number is eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty, nine seventy. Jonathan Gruber thanks so much for calling in today. My pleasure good to be here. Hi, Jonathan, it's good to meet you. Hello, so. Let's jump right into this and talk a little bit about. The sheer scope of what this country is facing in terms of. A, job loss and a commensurate loss of healthcare, and talk a little bit about sort of the irony, around the resistance, and we part of the resistance to universal the idea of universal health care was that. We needed to protect the private insurance industry. So talk a little bit about how that is playing out in the in light of this crisis. Yes so basically. You know what we've got here is is a really unprecedented economic. as I was discussing the show before Mrs.. you have had a massive economic shock. We've partially bounce back quickly, but you could. People talk about sort of a U. SHAPE, recession or visa procession. This can be some weird shape recession where it's going to be a quick bounceback, and then a slow long resolution of the people who still are unemployed, so there's a lot of people unemployed for a long time and a key feature of America. Is that we health insurance to the jobs people have and as a result, people suffer from. From this double whammy when they lose their jobs, they often lose their health insurance to and that is a major problem. Just at the moment when your incomes fallen, you can suddenly be exposed to a huge expenditure risk from being uninsured It's for this. This was the one of the major motivations for passing I health care reform here in Massachusetts, and then the affordable care act was to provide options outside of the employment setting for individuals so they so that we could have so that those individuals lose jobs at have someplace else to turn. So it seems that one of the major issues here is that. There seems to be very little. That is standard, especially as we've seen different states, different regions regions of the country deal with universal healthcare in different manner. How do people wear? Do people begin turning when they're trying to figure out what their next steps are after? They've lost their job or their insurance? Yeah so I. It's a great question. You're right. It's it's not standard and really there's there's there's essentially few different channels so first of all employers. If people are furloughed, employers may continue to provide them health insurance, so the first thing is to find the people's employers are to provide it. The second option is for a long time in the US for about thirty five years. We've had something. A law called Cobra. Which essentially allows you to buy? Your employer sponsored health insurance? If you were laid off from your job. The trick is you might. People might hear they. Hey, that's great news. You know I I I I love that insurance. The problem is you. Don't buy it at what you're paying. You buy it at the total cost, because for most people in America and they get health insurance, the employer pays about two thirds of the cost and they pay about a third. So. Let's take my talk about my example at Mit. I pay about something like six thousand dollars a year for my family's coverage, but my employer pays something like fourteen thousand dollars a year for the rest of the coverage, so if I lose my job I under Cobra. You don't pay your share. You pay the whole thing so right now I'm paying six thousand a year. If I lost my job, which fortunately I can't. But if I lost my job that would be certainly paying twenty thousand dollars. Hundred Cobra, so Cobra is a good option. The sense that allows you retain your coverage, but it's a very very expensive option, so that's sort of one route. People can take, and then the final route people can take is they can take advantage of the increased eligibility under the affordable care act. They can either of their Massachusetts they can go to 'em. Health connector dot. Dot Gov, or they can go to over all other places in the country they can go to healthcare dot Gov which are websites which carefully walk you through the process? If you've lost your job and you're very poor that is saying individual below about fifteen thousand dollars or or a family below about thirty thousand dollars. You might be eligible for free coverage under the Medicaid Program. What's known as Mass Healthier Massachusetts if you're near poor? but still suffering you can get subsidized low cost coverage through the various state health insurance exchanges. Andrija justice woman ever want to give out number again in case, people didn't hear it at the top, our number, eight, seven, seven, three, hundred, eighty, nine, seventy, and again. That's because Jonathan Gruber will be here throughout the half hour taking your questions about healthcare. Especially, this is a pivotal day actually with a lot of fiscal years having ended yesterday starting today, so situations may have changed for people as we're talking about the. The coronavirus might have a surge. people's conditions may change in the future. So if you WANNA learn how to shore up your situation. All questions regarding healthcare Jonathan Gruber can answer if you give us a call at eight, seven, seven, three, oh one, eight, hundred, nine, hundred, seventy, eight, seven, seven, three, oh, one, eighty, nine, seventy, Andrea. Sorry to interrupt. That's Okay Jonathan. We're talking. You know it's likely about sixteen million people. In this country have lost, their employer provided health care. and. Because, they've lost their jobs. And when you talk about the poor or the near-poor, not every state. Has the option of expanded. Medicaid, they were fourteen states that show specifically because it was an Obama program. Not to expand Medicaid places like Texas in Florida, which are ironically among the hardest hit currently with the pandemic. What happens then what happens to people there? Yeah you know this is one of one really unfortunate aspect of the of the blowback and supportable care act. The affordable care act was set up with a particular structure which was for the poorest. People were going to give them free Medicaid. So let's say people below the poverty line, and above the poverty line. We're give them subsidize private coverage, but then due to Supreme Court decisions. States were suddenly given the option about whether to take up the first piece of that now to be. The option to take it up with the federal government paying for it. So what federal government was gonNA pay for it. All States had to assign in the bottom line. Say Sure I'll take this, but a number states do do to really was political. Malpractice announced. They weren't GonNa do that well. That wasn't anticipated by the crafters. The affordable care act so in those states. You very weird situation where if? If you're both the poverty line, you can buy subsidized coverage, but actually below the poverty line. You're screwed. It really is terrible. Literally by becoming poor, you lose your health insurance options and once again. This is really political malpractice. In these states, the federal government's literally saying. Hey, just make this possible. We'll pay for it and they won't. Because they're awful because they're awful people really, there's no other reason. Let's go to our first caller. Bernadette calling from the car hibernate. You're on air for Boston. Public radio I Bernadette. can you hear me yes? so I have a question. I've because my husband just lost his immediately. When covert hit and I don't make enough money to continue paying. We're both self employed, so we both paid, you know we paid for our own health insurance. At about twenty four thousand a year now I'm trying. I'm in the process of changing using the health connector in Cetera, my teenage son is now on mass health, which is the Medicaid program and I'm having a hard time understanding if it's as good or better or worse than the Private Insurance Jim an opinion on that I'd like to hear your thoughts, thank. Burn at. That's great. That's a great question so as I said there's really sort of two options offered through the obamacare exchange channels in most states all but fourteen states you can. If you're poor, Nov you get Medicaid which is called in Massachusetts and otherwise you can get subsidize private coverage comparing the is is not easy. I think the way to think about Bernard, it is really to ask. Or their doctors that you really really care about your son seeing. And so it's worth reaching out to those doctors and ask if they accept mass health, because not all doctors do if they accept the math, hell, meself program. If they do or if there's no particular providers, you really strongly care about the mass. Health is a much better program it's it's cheaper. It's totally free rather than causing some money, and when you go to the doctors totally free, it really is I. Like to call it. The best insurance money can't buy so The the only restriction that's health is not all doctors. Take it so I think if you don't care about which doctors your kid goes through. There's there's still a broad network of doctors, but it might not have the particular one you want to go to. You have a particular Dr Phil Very strongly about then. Mass health is a great option for your son. Jonathan Gruber. Where do you think that this is headed? I feel like we're. I'm normally reporting in the arts sector. I'm starting to see a pile up here. I just another one. This morning is Shakespearean, company stalwart theater company out in western Massachusetts is announced that it's going to need to at least lay off or furlough some of its staff. We just had a major announcement from the Huntington Theatre Company here last week. We know that municipalities are dealing with their budgets right now, and there will likely be cuts going forward. Education is dealing with that. What does this mean for the healthcare system to have so many people suddenly out there trying to figure solidify their healthcare coverage at once. Well I, I don't think it's a great question, but I don't think the numbers matter. These websites can handle those numbers. I think what it means. You talked about the call being time because the fiscal quarter. The cult also time the because this just this week. The trump administration announced their intention to double down and supporting a lawsuit which would actually strike down the affordable care act. So what it means is eat now it's more critical than ever to have the affordable care act you know when the economy is going well and people jobs to their insurance. You know it was easy to say well, it's not. Not Clear how important this law is! But when the this crisis has emphasized, how critical this laws we the reliance of most Americans on their jobs for health insurance, the fundamental weakness of our system, the affordable care act provides for the first time in our nation's history, a real safety net so people like the ones you just described from the theater companies losing their jobs has someplace else to turn. If the trump administration has their way next year after the election, the Supreme Court strikes down the affordable care act. Then those options go away well. It's interesting that that you raise the fact that the DOJ. Clearly, not not just withdrawn. It's it's its position as a party support in cases where it was supporting the ACA. Attempting to you know siding with getting the ACA struck down I'm wondering if you have an opinion as to whether or not everything that you're talking about today, the numbers of people who have lost their jobs, the massive need for healthcare coverage in the face of the loss of of employer provided coverage will have any effect on the Scotus in making those decisions, because ordinarily they'd make the decision vacuum, right, it would just be this. Not An academic argument about the Va should be struck down versus white should be kept, but you've got people in reach in real time in millions and millions of people who will have no health care coverage. Do you think that'll make a difference to them? Well look I mean it would have been true in any time. It's particularly true now, and we don't know what goes beyond beyond behind those closed doors. I it's very important. Understand for those involved this case. This is the most ridiculous case brought to date yet against photo curiosity clear the lawyer who brought previous cases against the affordable care act this acted. This case is ridiculous. So Game Surpreme Court has in two previous senses upheld the affordable care act. All signs are good, but we can count anything, and you would hope that the fact that the role affordable care act plays in our economy. has been emphasized by this crisis. Hopefully that will have an influence in the court to the right thing. We are on the air for the next for the rest of the hour with Jonathan. Gruber healthcare. Activist architect official. Who can help you? With healthcare questions, let's go back to our calls. By the way our number is eight, seven, seven, three, hundred, eighty, nine, seventy, again, eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty, nine seventy. Let's go to Barbara calling from Cambridge Hi Barbara. Hi, jared. Yes, I'm calling to ask I'll give you my circumstances I was laid off in two thousand seventeen and haven't worked since then I went onto Cobra and then due to my birthday, I was rolled into Medicare and I needed to supplement that with a supplementary health plan but it's starting to feel pinching. So I wondered but the fact is I. Have Savings, so I don't know that would make me in eligible for mass has. support program. Does that. Make sense you know it does and Barbara you sound much younger than being eligible for Medicare by. If you know my asking. Are You So does that mean you're? You're above sixty five. No, Oh yes I am yeah. I unfortunately if you're above sixty five, then exchange the this is really a program for those below sixty five. You're sixty five you really in the Medicare world, and in that case as you say you know, and this is important people who advocate Medicare for all need to know this Medicare is actually pretty mediocre insurance insurances you found out. There's a lot of uncovered costs for example used to pay twenty percent of your doctors costs with no cap, and you have to pay a deductible hospital, and that's why most people moving a have a supplemental plan as well It's very important that you have some kind of supplemental plan. the there's just too much uncovered risk to just. Just leave the standard Medicare, but there are a variety of options. There are a number of programs called Medicare advantage plans, which essentially cover all your deductibles and Co Insurance and Co payment, but you gotta somewhat more limited network of doctors, and once again it's all about whether that matters to you whether that excludes your doctor or not so I definitely would suggest you shop around open enrollment period is coming in the fall I was just during open enrollment period you shop around and look at not just the options for supplemental insurance, or what's called Medi Gap, your planned a through j, but also look at Medicare advantage plans for the state of Massachusetts and see if any of them. Have the doctors who care about your network. Because if you do that can be a lot cheaper. Okay thank you for the call. We are going to take a quick break. are talking to MIT economist. John Gruber about the healthcare options that are out there. If you've lost your job, the conversation continues on eighty nine seven. W. G. B. H. Boston public radio. Muslim public radio. If you're just tuning in, we are joined right now by MIT economist Jonathan, Gruber, he's taking our questions and your calls about unemployment in what options are are to get health insurance. During this critical time, you can call us at eight, seven, seven, three, oh one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, again, eight, seven, seven, three, zero, one, eighty, nine seventy. Five quickly Jonathan before we go back to our phone calls. What is Congress doing? Do we see Congress stepping forward it all to try to fill the gaps in the way. They have filled other financial gaps throughout this crisis. Congress talking about it. There's sort of three types of proposals. One type of proposal would be subsidized, Cobra Coverage, which would be and this is what's in the house is most recent bill. What's called the Heroes Act? There's three trillion dollars suggestion for the next round so they would say look. Let's make Cobra. Free for everyone that certainly would help but I don't like it very much is. Is a plan for for three reasons first of all, it doesn't solve the fundamental problem that people are tied to their jobs health insurance second of all It doesn't help with your company goes bankrupt. If the company goes bankrupt, you can't get health insurance from them and third of all in about eleven states it doesn't apply to those in very small firms, so it really is an imperfect solution. The second solution. Is a solution that are representative possible future senator. Joe Kennedy sign on which is to give unemployed people access to the Medicaid, program directly. or to the Medicare program directly and the third option is to supplement and boost the role these exchanges. This is the option I prefer which is to say. The exchanges were set up exactly for the situation. Let's offer a special enrollment period which trump refuses to do, and let's further subsidized unemployed individuals to make sure that they can access the exchanges. They're the perfect solution for this time. We've gotta make use of it. Okay! Let's go to our next caller. Let's go to Joe in Dorchester. Joe Bought Healthcare through the state. He lost tax credit and he'd like a little advice on that. Joe Joe. Aj How are you? Good Hi! Wha- what do you mean you lost the tax credit. I'm apparently across a certain income bracket over this past year and I'm a career server in restaurants I'm thirty one and I've been doing this a long time and I've been buying my insurance through the marketplace so far. Everything's subsidized. Tax Credit that basically pay back out of what would have been my tax return at the end of the year just to make a monthly payment. A little manageable I'm not really sure how they're basing those tax credit benefits. What they're basically I'm off of I. Think to me from my understanding, if the federal poverty level which doesn't really make sense when he translated to a high cost of living place like Boston. Pay Out of pocket, you know whatever it is reentering thirty dollars a month, which for me is honestly a stretch? I I don't know what else to say besides I, think that it's not structured well to begin with never mind now when my income is so unpredictable. Joe! It's great. It's a great point so essentially. The way this is set up is essentially they look at your income, relative to the federal poverty line and and and I agree that's That's a hard thing in Massachusetts where it where the federal poverty line, and can you imagine someone living in Massachusetts on twelve thousand dollars a year? which is what the poverty is, of course, you couldn't so Probably what happened to you is your. Your income went up relative drink coming up, and that bumped you into a higher bracket and when you too high bracket. Bracket, you do pay more. It's what we call a progressive scheme where the higher income is relative to the poverty line The more you pay, that said there are things you can do to try to manage your bill, which is in particular. If you shop around across plans, moving to a less expensive plan can help lower. That cost a lot once again. Mostly the way the plans differentiate is as I've been saying. During this call on the doctors they include in the hospital. Include you shop around and can find a plan that you know. Meet, your needs enter doctors and hospitals. You might be able to save a lot of money that way, so I think unfortunately if your income goes up, you're going to pay more. That's the nature of the system, but that doesn't mean you're out of options. Thanks for the call Joe Jonathan. If ever, there's a time and you've probably talked about this with Jimmy Marjorie, too, but if ever, there was a time where this all gets tested, of course, it is now I mean. How illustrative has this been for you to figure out how this system works or doesn't work in in this time of crisis? That's a great question I think it has You know look I'm biased. There's obviously I I like the affordable care act, but honestly I think it's hard not to see how this doubles down your faith in something other than our current system be affordable care act, or if you want to move further to single payer, clueless illustrated the weakness of a system where employment tied to the job were suddenly. Sixty million people don't out of their jobs. I, but I also think it's really illustrated. The fundamental damage done by the states refusing to expand their medicaid programs, which was always a problem, but it's just it's just a cruelty assist even more apparent now, and that's why it's really made me more of a believer in the kind of public option approaches that Joe Biden has proposed which essentially Joe Biden's public option. One feature of it would be would be in the states that haven't expanded Medicaid. People could come into his public option plan, and so really would. Would, solve that one in that we're talking about overnight about three million people gaining health insurance coverage through plan like that. That's a lot of people are hurting right now, and and I think that that's emphasized the importance of that feature going forward. It's a fantastic solution and we're talking to MIT economist John Gruber, and he is answering your questions about healthcare options. If you're out of a job, we have bob from Sturbridge on the line. Bob Lost his health insurance today and he'd like. He's got a couple of questions about Cobra. Hi. Bob Hi Bob. Hey are you. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. So Yeah my wife. We're family of four and my wife gets lost her job, so we are without health insurance up today and we're trying to figure out whether we should get Cobra. We should wait and see if we get sick and then get ready. We're actively. Well I think so couple couple of different things first of all I'm sorry about the job loss. It's it's. It's a tough time all around an uncertain time Cobra you can't wait. Cobra, you have to sign if you're going to Cobra, you have I believe it's thirty or sixty days to sign up the Cobra, and then if you pass that, you can't get it. It's not like you can jump back. You get sick. so Cobra. If you go that route, which as I said, it's pretty expensive you have thirty days to decide the other route. Depending on your income is to go into the exchange, and that depends as the last caller point that depends on what's happened to your income, if your income remains above a family of four coming remains above sea about eighty five thousand dollars, then you get unsubsidized coverage by the exchange, which is still may be cheaper than your Cobra, but not that much cheaper if you're. Van Comes fallen below eighty five thousand dollars, then you actually get subsidized coverage in the exchange, which should be a lot cheaper. So I think what you really want to do is go on the healthcare dot Gov, and take a look at what your options are on the exchange. Compare that to the cost of your Cobra, with both of those. You can't just wait till you get sick. That's a dangerous strategy with both of those both of those basically trigger a special enrollment. Enrollment period if you lose your job, so that's been triggered now. Yeah, so for both of those have appeared of time. You can sign up, but you can't say. Wait two or three months to say now I'm sick. I WANNA in that you can't do. You'd have to wait till the next open enrollment period. which is the end of the year. But. Thank you so much for that call. I think I think that a lot of people have the very same question that Bob had I think that answer was incredibly helpful so Jonathan We have just a short bit of time left, but Where do you see this all going? Where do you think we? We are six months from now? What does this picture look like? Yeah, you know. It's like I said. I think we're GONNA. Have this weird shaped recovery. Which I think you know, we've quickly dropped from sixty million to thirteen million. We'll probably drop a little bit more, but then it's going to be the unemployed you know basically I I can't get any better than the Fed the Fed says the unemployment rate's GonNa hit about nine percent by the end of the year, which normally the disastrous from today's perspective sounds wonderful, and then slowly decrease but over very long period of time, so that means we're gonNA millions of people who've lost health insurance. And where that leads us really depends on the will of politicians to step in and do something about that. Jonathan thank you very much It's been a pleasure to have you on. I think helped a lot of people today. BP, our contributor. John Gruber joins US every month. He's the Ford Professor of Economics. At Mit, he was instrumental in creating both Massachusetts health care, reform and affordable care act. His latest book is jump starting the America. How breakthrough science can revive economic growth in the American dream coming up, we'll bring you live coverage of governor bakers press briefing. He listening to eighty nine seven wgn Boston public radio. I'm jared filling in for Jim Brady ahead on Boston public radio for months, Americans heeded the warnings of governors across the nation and hundred down to combat the corona virus. Well one we turn to three months, and then under pressure governors moved ahead with reopening now the virus is worse than ever and states like Texas Florida in. Our Knowledge Ing Day moved too fast, so it's our sacrifice worth it, and is there a chance to get back to some semblance of normalcy in a few minutes will ask national security expert Juliette Cayenne. The legacy of the Vietnam War has been memorialized in films like apocalypse now platoon, and even twenty nine thousand nine hundred watchmen now spike Lee is telling the tale of black soldiers in his film to five blunts, but Pulitzer Prize winning author Viet Don Wind says that while black soldiers get their. Say the Vietnamese once again dome. Later we'll hear more when he joins us. That more is ahead on Boston public radio. visit. Boston public radio on jared. Bowen Andrea Cabral or filling in for Jim and Marjorie today update. We did physically see each other masked as we were in the hallway as we just had a little confab about the rest of this show good to see in person. It's absolutely good to see you personally. We virtually hugged A. From a safe distance. Yeah No, no, no, it is kind of strange. The setup you know even doing this is kind of strange, but it's very nice to be back on the air with you know it's so great. We're bringing you live coverage momentarily governor Baker press briefing for today to he is touring the Ymca of Greater Boston with Lieutenant. Governor Karen Pleateau and MVP a gentleman undersea puff tech. They're highlighting ongoing food security initiatives until he takes the MIC though we're to open up the lines and take your calls on the emancipation memorial that would be the statue that is in Park Square in Boston. If you don't know square, it's that little park right next to. Park Plaza Hotel. It depicts a freed slave, kneeling before Abraham Lincoln, but in response to mounting calls to take the statue down Boston's commission unanimously last night to remove it. And, so we're asking you is this right thing to do should purge representations of outdated ideas and values, or should we let them stand as a reminder of past actions and attitudes that we certainly do not want to repeat our number is eight, seven, seven, three Oh, one, eighty, nine, hundred, seventy, eight, seven, seven, three, one, eighty, nine, seventy, of course. This is a debate that has been raging for years at this point around this country very much, so in the south where Jews. Were set us have been coming down and actually across Europe We're seeing that happened in London, too so we're taking your questions again. At Eight, seven, seven, three, oh one eighty, nine seventy now. Andrea is thinking about this because I'm a little nuance because I. do fall into the camp that I. think that the ways representations I don't necessarily believe that they have to stand where they are, but they are representations of our past, and we cannot forget that passed, but all of a sudden like a bolt of lightning. This morning I realized that it was probably about two years ago I. I live in the city pass by all of these statues all the time, without even looking at them and one day I happened to notice that statue, and really looked at it, and I saw that former enslaved person crouch down below Lincoln. I thought Oh my goodness. How is this allowed to still be here? All of a sudden? They just very vividly remembered that reaction that I had kind of like I. Do with lyrics sometimes where I hear sawing and all of a sudden my brain opens up to hear the lyrics I. Think Janet Jackson Not only saw see I have no idea. so where do you stand on this well? You know just a couple of things before I. Answer that just to give people an idea. The statue is apparently. been there since eighteen seventy nine. So it's been there for a while. And, there's an identical monument it in DC in Washington DC. Of course protesters have also threatened to take that to pull that that statue down, but the the creator of the statue. Lived in Boston came from Boston. His name was Thomas Boyle, and that's why they put the replica here in the city, and yes, it has an there's an inscription that says Array set free and the country. At Peace Lincoln rests from Labor's. Didn't hold up. There's a Lo-. Yeah, well I think what people are uncomfortable with what I'm uncomfortable with is that it's sort of a level of supplication right? I mean it. It is worthy you know it's nowhere that you say that. The when the original statue was erected, some of the people who donated money to get the statue built were. Friedman who were not slaves and they were among the donor pool that actually helped to get the statue record erected, but that was an eighteen seventy nine. In two, thousand and twenty. It really doesn't hold up, but to your point I do agree. That there is a place. For these kinds of monuments, maybe it's in a museum. Maybe it's you know some other place, not necessarily in the middle of a city park. But that we risk erasing history, or what people thought of as an accurate depiction of history, which is itself history? If we remove things all together and I'm not I'm not making any distinction here between this statue or or any other statute I'm sure there are some that I. would absolutely you know I'm nuts about getting removed? Many of the confederate statues but I think that we need to. People need to understand why they were created to begin with so few talking about confederate monuments, most people think these go way way back there, attributive confederacy. No, they were created during Jim, crow to reinforce the boy premacy, and that's a history lesson that ought to be learned even in the context of removing the statues and. You know doing whatever gets done with them but I. I'm a big believer in preserving. Accurate History so the people get the full context of why a particular thing exists and I and I think this. This is a good example of that. Let's try to take a few calls before again. We're joined by the governor shortly for daily press briefing. Let's go to Nan Nanny. wrentham Hi Nanny. Hi, it's Mary. Deposed this particular monument with the plaque of the black regiment on Boston common. saw both of those. When I was fourteen, we went on a school. Field trip when I saw the regiment I was very proud, Boston, and very very happy to see that, but when I saw the Lincoln freeing the slaves monument on some emotional level, I was very uncomfortable and keep in mind talion American from East. Boston I am not a woman of color, but it was so wrong on so many levels I was fourteen could not take you late. My feeling just time, but I just knew it just wasn't right. Yeah! That's very much. The feeling I. I suddenly remembered out of the blue, having this warning it just it didn't feel white, and obviously I'm standing. Here is a is a white man saying that and I can't even imagine if I was a person of color looking at myself, represented as such a Mary. Thank you so much for the call. By the way the regiment has also been taken down. I. Think at this point, but it's only for restoration. Shoring up the foundation and it's going to be back and stronger literally stronger sometime within the year I believe, and you know art art is supposed to evoke a visceral response from people who see it and what Mary was essentially saying she had a visceral response. To seeing that statue, I think you know for me. As a black woman I'm a you know what bothers me about it as I, said as the supplication, but also the fact that it it hides the actual truth of slavery, inasmuch as slaves didn't wait. For. You know the the the comforting hand of amp. Abraham Lincoln slaves ran constantly by the millions slaves ran. They found ways around slavery. They found ways to fight back against slavery. and. It's the statute. The problem I have the statue is, it appears that black people sort of just kind of existed in slavery, just hoping for someone to come along, and and set them free, and that is that that is a completely inaccurate depiction of the actual history of slavery, among other inaccuracies that that statue creates which is that if Lincoln could have probably kept the union together and not done away with slavery. He probably would have taken that option. You've just maybe I. was thinking what what will be replaced with and that? I'm sure that will be a very big question right now so far. The city has just said that it will take the statue down. It'll be housed with probably a mind to exhibit it in some way again with context. We just had this conversation recently about gone with the wind to which removed from its streaming service so that it could. Could consider. It has recently replaced or put it back on the streaming service, but now with a scholar talking about the issues that it represents again. I think an important move. It would be horrible. Just remove that film and deprive people of how Hollywood was depicting race in the Nineteen Thirties We need to understand the history that we move from. Let's go back to our calls while we can. Let's go to Greg in Boston. Greg. Hey Hi. Yes, I'm a longtime listener occasional caller. I agree with the point that that statue can be interpreted as demeaning to African Americans. who were formerly slaves and they were waiting for someone to deliver them. But there are also many many interpretations, and the fact that it was partly paid for by free black people, some former slaves I guess Friedman that would convey makes me think that there's a much more complicated narrative that should be thought about here, and there are so many street art sculptures that are you know offensive to different people on different levels? Look at the Irish Famine Memorial. so I, guess I'm a little bit concerned that it was a unanimous decision by the. By the Arts Commission I. I think it was done rather hastily. Rather politically I'm a total supporter of black lives matter. That's got nothing to do with my comment. So, what would what would your suggestion be Greg? My suggestion would be that this be a little bit more thoroughly discussed and thought about you know what Park Square where the thing is I've lived in Boston for twenty years. I walk all over the city sometimes as much as five miles. A day I had to kind of remind myself of where it was I. Know I've Seen It. it's really not wildly prominent. as Well as prominent in that square, but that's where does not get a ton of traffic back at the park. Plaza Hotel. We don't forget. This is the same sculptor I'm leave. His name was ball. Thomas Bukit the George Washington Yep. Who did the George Washington on the on the garden? And you know right after the unfortunate riot that was attendant to the big, the big early March. You know a few weeks ago. They Abigail Adams. thing on the mall with the with the you know the prominent women. was defaced. You mentioned earlier. Jared the thing about the Shaw Memorial. It was vandalized I mean there's been an awful lot of confusion and unhappiness about the way. These public monuments have been dealt with in recent weeks. I just think that the decision to remove. It was done rather hastily and politically. Well the good news is as I mentioned. The city will not being destroyed. It's not being dismantled it. Just being moved as there's more conversation, it does seem though that will not go back to that that prominent place in Park Square Andrea. It's interesting. I recently interviewed Yinka. Shona Barra, who is a very famous contemporary artists British-nigerian spoke to him in London about an installation that should be unveiled any day now actually on the greenway that he did, I did this had this conversation for open studio and I asked him about this knowing. That he works in the realm public art that they've had statues taken down as I, said in London as well, and it's his theory as an artist as a British. Nigerian as I said. That these statues should not be dismantled, but they should be kept intact with the proper context So perhaps that's Museum I. I'm not sure how you do that. Because obviously, there's huge magnitude to the size and scope of a lot of these works. So they take up a lot of space, but that's his belief, but I think you can do it, I mean. There's. There's so much to worry about here right so. I worry about Although I. Don I in truth. I? Don't feel this way at all. About the confederate monuments which I think are confederate to treasonous a war bike by traders to the country, but I i. worry about just the notion of removing art that people don't like I. Worry about that in a first amendment context. And so that troubles me a bit, and then I think to myself there are certainly certain kinds of statues where you can put a plaque that gives a cogen. Context that this was this statue was erected in such and such a year, and this was the tone the tenor of the time. You know this is what we know. We understand now. You put it in some sort of context it because because children do see them, and if children can see them, have the visceral reaction that Mary described and can read the context and can say is not you know this is not the way? Any any part of this depiction. That's offensive. I now understand why that is I. Now understand why I feel this way as a fourteen year old because I kind of. Thought, that too I think that's helpful. Let's go back to our callers again. Numbers Eight, seven, seven, three, hundred, eighty, nine seventy. Let's go to Karen calling from Somerville. You're on the air with Allison. Jim Marjorie you're on the. Generated Andrea. Hi, thanks for having me on I think Andrea and I are thinking along the same lines I'm a teacher in Boston and I. See a great idea for African American History Museum. We're all of these. Statues and not just the statues, but. Other, information can be housed I. Work at a school colleague Muriel S Snowden. high school and she was a an organizer in Boston and she shared her husband started the Freedom House. I'm sure not a lot of people know that. So I know there's one in Washington. DC, which is widely popular the African American History Museum I don't know why every city doesn't have one especially Boston. If they're in the scope and stories that are told in DC, it's phenomenal. We would be so lucky to have something like that here. Well, we don't yet. We don't have anything of that scope we do have we do have an African American. Museum, but it's just not the scope of of what's the Smithsonian, but the question to Karen Karen raised. This issue is the question is whether or not statuary like that would really have a place in such a museum I would I wish there was museum of accurate American history. That would be very helpful. As much as we would actually get. The truth about things and not you know not strictly from from a single perspective, but you know and Karen. We appreciate you as a teacher. I just wanted to say that Because you know, you're molding young minds here, but I think it's I think. At least this generates the kind of discussion. We need to be having about the accuracy of history about how that resonates with people when they see monuments to inaccurate history and I. Don't I don't want that conversation to stop. Me Maybe. It's also having the works in conversation with one another I got myself in hot water for trying to protect the bull statue on Wall Street, because I was trying to protect the integrity of the artist who had a certain meaning that was changed when the the fearless girl statue was placed in front of it, but that that put two pieces of of art, and then our whole societal construct in conversation, and in argument, didn't as we looked at the bail power in this country especially in business, and this was really at the height of the the me too movement that happened that would be interesting to to see that statue. Up against one other and I don't think that that's necessarily been done anywhere. All right well. Let's see Susanne is on the air with us on the line. Actually with us. She's from calling from Ashland Suzanne. What do you think about all this? I was hoping and I think several other callers have sort of alluded to this that there would be a place at the Smithsonian. In. Washington, where artists or anyone else who would like to visit these statues for any reason. Could go and see them all and I think whoever made reference to the fact that there could be plaques that explain them. Should a child be involved with them? that it would give them a wonderful context of our nation's history, so go Smithsonian you've got my vote. That's all I have to say. Thank you very much very welcome. Thank you for the call and I. I think I think plaques an explanations help adults, too, because adults are usually just You know just as ignorant in many times of the actual history of a of a particular thing or placing that history in an appropriate context, I think it's just helpful. Educational Material for whoever sees the statue and we have seen museums start to do this by the way especially the surface more most recently with the metoo movement and museums began to take a look at some of the work in their collection. The artist's work has come from the depictions that we see on walls. with more explanation This has also been done in terms of provenance, and how museums came by pieces, which, for some decades in countries around the world was certainly not by the most. Savory of process. Straightforward means there's a lot of looting and taking a ferrying away. that museums also have to reckon child at this point, so the governor is about to start his press conference I understand It's just a few minutes away. Maybe we can squeeze in one more call from Jacqueline. Hi Jaclyn Jacqueline. Hello Good Morning. I'm calling from Palo Alto California and I want to tell you that you're a breath of fresh air with intelligence that we listen to and direly need here in California. I think the statute should be put in a museum, and it should be about this time, and how this all came about I think that would be the most appropriate thing for people to come, and it would also make people. People when they're going through museums, they actually stop and think and they read and nobody's passing by on the streets. They don't have time to look at that. And I agree with the lady who called before and she her idea about the Smithsonian, but I think it should be a separate museum for what is taking place in how this all came about is this particular time in history? That is a fantastic. I love that idea. That's a fantastic idea. Because and I was struggling. I'm so glad you called I was struggling with how you place these statues somewhere, and and what is the explanation look like especially for a statute that's been ups and seventeen eighty nine. And then in two thousand and twenty something different happened, and to Jacqueline's point this this moment in time deserves its own context, its own place where people can understand why a statue went. And what it represented went from being one thing. In prior years to being representing something completely different in two thousand twenty, where action was actually taken I appreciate your call chaplain. Actually and thinking how how great it would be. To see the protests of. The graffiti on the murals in the south to Right as an add a piece of art, so the governor is joining us now. He is at the YMCA with Karen Police Lieutenant Governor of Greater Boston. Hundred fifteen days or so and we were talking about how many things people have had to do. To uproot disrupt and change the way they operate to deal with the circumstances in the situations that people find themselves with respect to covert and the economic. calamity that came with it and just wanted to say to Marty Martinez. How much we appreciate the partnership. We have with the city of Boston on so many. And Steve Do you and the folks at the embassy is. This is in some respects. I guess the way I referred to. It is a a pivot of your own with respect to how the t normally operates and how the ride works. I do also want to thank the Food Bank for. The extraordinary work that you all have done another big pivot course of very short period of time and I think in many ways There's been a lot of work done by a lot of people. Some of which gets noticed. Some of which doesn't but the amount of. Organizations that James talked about when he talked about the players with respect to food. Insecurity is just the beginning of what is a really long list here in Massachusetts. It's been working on this for the past several months. Before I talk a little bit more about this. I want to just get my daily update on cove in one thousand, nine hundred. Yesterday there were about fifty eight hundred covid nineteen tests reported in Massachusetts, which means we now done about a million sixty six thousand tests since? We got into this yesterday. There were one hundred fourteen new positive cases. That means the seven day average for positive case, rates dropped to about one point eight percent, which is a ninety four percent decrease from the middle of April. Yesterday's Daily report also included a statistic. We haven't seen for quite a while. There were zero new covid. Nineteen deaths reported yesterday, and as we all know. Far too many families have lost loved ones and far too many friends who have lost loved ones this virus over the course of the past several months. As we've said before the continued fight against the virus depends almost completely in exclusively on all of us, maintaining our vigilance, and continuing to do the things that have made such a big difference here in Massachusetts. They're currently about seven hundred thirty three patients who are hospitalized statewide to cove nineteen, including about one hundred twenty in the ICU's. That brings the three day average for the number of patients that are in hospitals down eighty nine percent since the middle of April only one hospital is currently using surge capacity. To serve patients, which is down from far bigger numbers in the middle of April. Our public health information continues to show the same downward trend on our key metrics that we've been tracking for the past few weeks. which enables us to continue to open? Our economy and to reopen our business community and to help get people back to work. Fortunately, the New England states and most of the northeast. Have had some of the same success that we've had in fighting this virus, and that's why effective today July one travelers to Massachusetts from the five other New England states along with New York and New Jersey will no longer have to self quarantine for fourteen days upon arriving here as we said yesterday, travelers from other states should continue to observe that fourteen day quarantine. The We'd been encouraging advising since late March and no one should travel. The Massachusetts is exhibiting covid nineteen symptoms. The changes to our travel advisory encouraging sign. We have more to say about next. Steps, We are having technical difficulties and taking the governor's press conference right now. He has been talking about the great downward trend that we're seeing here in Massachusetts right now. The seven day average of positive cases is just at one point eight percent. That's a ninety four percent decrease since April. There were no deaths reported yesterday. We know reporting can be fluid as far as metrics, but at any rate that is a very good sign to have zero deaths reported right now. There are seven hundred and thirty-three patients hospitalized with one hundred and twenty in the ICU. That hospitalization rate is down eighty nine percent since April We heard this prior to going into the governor's press conference, but travelers. Travelers from all New England states as well as New York. New Jersey can come to Massachusetts without quarantining, because the rates are low and all of these regions Of course, the governor is reminding people. If you have symptoms as we're seeing in surges, and so many states certainly do not come to Massachusetts that it's just about the point that we lost the governor. Who is speaking? And I think that we have him back now. The T- The city of Boston, the why and the Greater Boston Food Bank to ensure that Boston's most vulnerable residents have access to food. We're all familiar with the door to door shared ride, Para Transit Service, otherwise known as the ride since the outset of the pandemic and March, the services experienced a decline in ridership. For All the reasons. You would expect because we urge people to. To stay home, and many chose to do so voluntarily especially if they were in a high risk category, low ridership resulted in the availability of ride vehicles and drivers to provide a secondary function that could be used to support communities, and what made this partnership so unique is that it was driven literally by the men and women behind the wheel of the teas ride service ride. Drivers interact in many cases with some of our. Our most vulnerable residents every day early on during the pandemic, they saw individuals who are unable to leave their homes to access food because of mobility issues, Corentin, illness, or because they were high risk, it was these drivers willingness to help that led to the collaboration with the Greater Boston Food Bank by the end of April twenty ride drivers were completing daily daily food deliveries to Boston's most vulnerable resonance, and as of today ride drivers. Drivers, have completed over eight thousand deliveries totally more than twelve thousand grocery bags, and nearly sixty thousand school meals to over twelve hundred Boston public school children groceries are delivered by ride vehicles designated homes. We get a lot of help from our colleagues in the city with respect to where they need to go. The amount is based on the size of the household, and whether the families enrolled in the Boston public schools meal partnership. This partnerships also made possible by our full. The folks here today at the Ymca Greater Boston which is the staging location for these vehicles to be loaded up with food deliveries. The initiative underscores the importance of collaboration between community organizations, municipalities, and the Commonwealth to help many of our most vulnerable residents during these unprecedented times. We think this is terrific and unique partnership. We were talking earlier about the folk about the fact that we certainly hope we learn from these partnerships that have sprung up over the course of the past ninety to one hundred and twenty days, and then we find ways to make sure that we take the very best practices we learned from these incorporate them more directly into the work. We do if and when. We ever get out of the state of emergency that we find ourselves in today, and with that I wanNA. Turn it over to NBC General Manager Steve Pasta. I want to thank everyone for joining us here today. One of the many troubling consequences of the pandemic has been the growth of food insecurity in the NBA is pleased to be part of this partnership to address food insecurity in Greater Boston. This unique partnership between the NBA The city of Boston, the YMCA in the Greater Boston Food Bank has ensured that Boston's most vulnerable residents have access to food. We've been really pleased to offer a ride. Para Transit Service to deliver. Food to people in need throughout Greater Boston as the governor detailed, we have seen significant decrease in ridership throughout the pandemic, and we've been able to use some of this additional capacity. We have to support the community and I really want to pay tribute in particular. To the drivers who are out there doing the work. To the NBA staff and our friends at veterans transportation who've been out doing the work literally? Literally driving food to people in need who need it and these drivers, no matter of these citizens. They see firsthand. The need and they see firsthand individuals with either mobility, illness or other issues. CanNot leave their homes to access food. So. We are grateful for the opportunity to partner with these great partners in the community. We've delivered thousands. Thousands of bags of food. We've delivered thousands of meals to. Children as well. We've been able to grow this over time I. WanNa, Thank Governor Baker and Lieutenant Governor police for their ongoing support of the NBA one appreciate, and thank the city of Boston chief Martinez for their partnership and their leadership on Food Security Issues WanNa, thank, James Morton on behalf of the why and also thank Carol Lincoln from the Greater Boston Food Bank for their work. I. Do want to recognize few other people. There's Sarah and lyle. Think. He's in the room. We dragged her away from the front door where she was loading bags up until the last moment. I also want to recognize the NBA Mike you lack who's here on behalf of the ride service at the tea and also recognize obviously the employees, the contractors with veterans transportation who are doing this very important work. It is a privilege for us to be able to help out in this important community based endeavor, so thank you for the opportunity and the EMBA. Is A is a citizen of this community and we are. We are pleased to be able to do this now. I'd like to invite Chief Martinez to offer if few remarked. Thank you general manager pro-tech and thank you governor Baker Lieutenant Governor Palijo. For being here today and highlighting this important work. Special things, of course to the why why I'm seeing in the Greater Boston Food Bank. For your ongoing commitment to addressing food insecurity issues here in our in our community, and especially things for us to Catalina Lopez was spinner. WHO's here with us? She runs the mayor's Office of food access. WHO's been helping to lead the city's efforts? Along with countless numbers of city, staff and volunteers from the BBC. May Be the one speaking, but they're the ones that are doing all the work that are making sure that in partnership. This is really happening, so thank you Catalina for your work and the work of the team. On behalf of marijuana. It's great to be here to highlight the importance of this partnership and the role of the ride, and making sure that food is accessible and available to those who need it as we work to. Combat Covid nineteen as the city of Boston continues our efforts to contain the spread of this virus. We have been faced with inequitable impact that as we've seen it, 'cause in our community. We seen levels of food insecurity be exposed to this pandemic in ways that have been shocking to some, but to the leaders around this work from the greater. Boston Food Bank and the why this is only uncovering inequities that have existed. Existed in our community for too long and people know well, and the city has worked in partnership to be able to make this happen as never before and could not have happened without these partners that has included developing emergency food delivery system to ensure that any Bostonian experiencing food insecurity, due to the public health crisis could be helped. A specific focus was given his seniors, families and individuals either Kobe positive or immuno-compromised. In addition to all the food sites that were lifted up in partnership with many very quickly, we also launched door to door, delivery, service and partnership since April eighth, and in two and a half months since then we've completed over sixteen thousand eight hundred deliveries, representing over twenty three thousand grocery bags, given free of charge to those in need with over eight thousand of those coming from the ride. It's truly remarkable. The work that's been done together. These deliveries represent three thousand eight hundred unique households that span. Span across every neighborhood and the city of Boston and this has been done and only possible in collaboration with our incredible partners. We've mentioned here, but as well as volunteers from the Boston police cadets volunteers from Boston Centers for youth and families, and the BPA, and of course NBC's Ride Furthermore the twenty three thousand grocery bags were entirely built by partners with the vast majority of them distributed for right here at this location as well as ABCD in. Austin has been a steadfast contributor to this effort. These. Efforts have been key to ensuring that people have access to the food. They need to feed themselves on their families, both and responding to and recovering from covid. We must make sure we're doing it from an Equity Lens, and that we continue to find ways to address the needs that we've been that. We've seen that been exposed and tackling food. Insecurity is one of those needs again. Thank you, Governor banker for the work that the state has done a partnership with us, not just around this, but around containing covid and keeping the city of Boston safe. We have much work to do especially as we see what's happening in different parts of the country. We look forward to continuing to find creative ways to utilize these fruitful partnerships to serve the city of Boston and to work to recover from this pandemic, and are more active away than we entered it, and that includes a greater focus on food insecurity. Thank you so much. And now I want to bring up without without it'd be impossible. Carol from the Greater Boston Food Bank. Who has the food right? Thank you, thank you, governor. Baker, thank you within a governor. Thank you general manager and thank you to Wendy into James of for the amazing work that you guys are doing. Carol tank and I am the Chief Operating Officer at the Greater Boston Food Bank. I am incredibly grateful to join you all today to continue the conversation on food security, highlighting the amazing work being done here at the Ymca of Greater Boston. Who by the way only became a? Member in March, and has already distributed over three hundred fifty thousand pounds of FBI food. Feeding America recently released a study showing that Massachusetts is seeing a fifty three percent increase in food insecurity, and it's the second highest state in the nation for increased risk of food insecurity among children. One in seven people, one in five children now are food insecure on the Commonwealth. The food, Bank just closed out the month of June yesterday with another historic distribution eleven point five million pounds of nutritious nutritious food. Five hundred and fifty partner agencies across one hundred ninety cities and towns in eastern Massachusetts, that's one hundred and ten percent growth over June twenty, one, thousand, nine hundred. As you can imagine. The last four months have been the largest distribution months in our forty year history. But none of the work we've been able to accomplish over. The last four months would be possible during this challenging time without the amazing incredible determined partnerships we have. In the Baker Administration in the city of Boston, and in the deeply committed and resilient partners of our service network. We've been very fortunate that only three percent of our partner. Food Pantries have closed temporarily due to covid nineteen. Many new partners have also stepped forward to help distribute food in the communities with the highest need like this Ymca and the MVP. The unique and creative partnership, between the why the NBA The city of Boston, and the Greater Boston Food Bank is only one great example of new collaborations born out of this crisis. It all began when Danny Lee. Chief customer officer and former food. Bank board member reached out to me in early March to ask if there might be an opportunity for the ride drivers to deliver food door to door. These drivers had been severely impacted by a reduction in passengers I told her it was not our paradigm, but to let me talk to are on the ground partners in Boston These formidable people from. The Office of food access, and the Ymca took the opportunity with a ride and ran with it. The covid nineteen pandemic has shed a bright light on the historic need for food assistance, but there is a silver lining. The awareness brought to this issue and the opportunity for new in different ways to solve it together. The Greater Boston Food Bank pledges to continue to work alongside you all and remain vigilant in ensuring all residents have access to three healthy meals a day together. We will end hunger here together. We can create a food secure Massachusetts, thank you. I am I think we're all anticipating. We're going to continue to do this work through the summer and. As I, said in my remarks and sort of the chief and Soda James. One of the things we WANNA make sure we do here is learn from these experiences and incorporate the lessons from this into the way we think about both developing and delivering on food insecurity going forward. I think we all believe that. There's been a lot of work done here to deal with the crisis I. Think we also believe that we've learned a lot of things. About how we can be better at this and smarter at and also. More expansive in our ability to deliver on this. There's a bunch of stuff that. I've certainly learned over the course of this that where we have access either federal resources or other private resources, overstocks, or a whole bunch of elements that we can incorporate into this and I know that the city of Boston and a number of other partners around the state of discovered that there are places and spaces and people that they need to be reaching out to and serving, and we need to incorporate that into the way we do this going forward 'til I don't know if it's going to be one point six million, but it's certainly going to be a game that's going to continue to be played for the foreseeable future, yeah! Yeah. If you'd asked me that question. Two months ago I would have said it was tenuous because the supply chain was very much disrupted right now we are able to because of amazing donations monetary donations. We are able to purchase. Healthy Food! We're getting enormous amounts just recently. We're getting enormous amounts of USDA. Food that is coming from the cares Zach and families I and also from a what's called Ceefax Corona. Virus food. Access program. It has been different. Certainly, the the impact on the on the facility in in Roxbury has been. Remarkable and hard and. The team there particularly the warehouse and the transportation workers have been heroic We can't imagine they. We're doing what we were doing last year or even. We did two million more pounds than we did last month and these guys. Keep coming back every single day. And keep saying we're going to keep doing that. We're committed to the mission, so we've got food. We've got a lot of support from the state. We have enormous support from the city of Boston. We have enormous support from donors, and we hope they won't stop. Because we do forecast this disruption and people's lives to continue on for quite a while. Thank you. Awesome. I I think for the the four that were. The board at the time that Bennett. Walsh was appointed was four three. We appointed three of them. Four of them have been pointed previously I can't speak. As I stand here with respect to how we plan to handle that they currently are working through a legal issue. They were enjoying several months ago and I. Think we're GONNA, wait. Until that legal process finishes before we do anything I do think. Two of the C to technically expired And I'm also hoping the legislature or lacked on our legislative and create some additional seats for healthcare expert on that board and I believe the date of the. Of the follow up on the on the legal question is July thirtieth. You have been listening. You have been listening to today's press briefing by Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker today. He's at the Ymca of Greater Boston was kind of a good news day. Actually he announced that there's a ninety four percent decrease in positive cova cases since April there were zero deaths reported yesterday and more on the good news front something. I think a lot of us didn't realize was happening, but with the decrease in ridership. On the T. and with the ride, which of course is the service that offers transport to small groups and or individuals, with not as many people taking the ride those ride drivers have been able to deliver some eight thousand deliveries twelve thousand grocery bags, including sixty thousand school meals This is a partnership. The governor has been talking about between the YMCA among them Ymca. And and the Greater Boston Food Bank not so much on the good news front. There's a fifty three percent increase in food insecurity. In this state, we are now the second highest in the nation for food, insecurity among children but again the state and partnering with these other organizations has been trying to mediate that by offering daily deliveries. to people in need especially to the elderly to students young. Young students and covert compromise people so really taking this time to use food that has been donated to the Greater Austin food. Bank to get it out to families very much in need Saul turn it back to you Andrea. Well within the Greater, Boston Food Bank was It's always Catherine. D'Amato does an absolutely spectacular job there and has for many years, and if you recall WCBS, actually had a A telethon earlier this year to support the Greater Boston Food Bank. And even they were surprised. They raised I think it was over five million dollars in a relatively short period of time, so the the food bank has been even better resource for this, but one of the reasons that you know I I'm grateful to live in Massachusetts for lots of reasons as much as we criticize any one of a number of things. Going on in the state at any given time. Because this kind of effort that was described is being. You can tell by the way they were describing it that they're building it. To be sustained. A big part of the problem is you know that we face all the time especially when we're in crisis as we can Russian and do something immediately, but the long term is always a problem and this pandemic we know is going to be a long term problem and I think based on the way that the governor and Martinez who doesn't amazing job is the public health. had a public health the city. Boston And the folks from the Greater Boston Food Bank were describing it. They. They know that this isn't going to just stop in September or October or November food insecurity is going to continue people getting their jobs back getting their incomes back recovering from covid, the just the rate of infection over a length of time is going to go on for awhile, and and this is. It's really a wonderful thing that they are. Being so thinking through the so critically. And doing so well within well as you say, we're doing it right, we'll continue to do right, but you're about. Tell us about the person who's going to tell us what happens nationally. She's raring to go. He is raring. Yes absolutely coming up do president trump's. America first policies mean by America alone. National Security Expert Juliette Cayenne joins us to tell us how we become a world class outcast. This is eighty nine seven W. G.. B. H. Boston public, radio. Welcome back to Boston public radio. I'm Jared Bowen here with Andrea Cabral Juliette Cayenne joins us on the line to talk about the latest national security headlines in other words. She is joining us to talk about everything that is happening. Now. Analyst for CNN former Assistant Secretary at the Department of Homeland Security and Faculty Chair of the Homeland Security Program at Harvard. University's Kennedy School of Government. Juliet we're bracing. Your pathein or you're breaking. Off Because We're in separate studio, so there's room to pace in. Exactly exactly. Oh I, know the feeling. This was a bad week. People. I'd willing to admit that this is a bad week. This is a bad week in the context of three years, this is. Really something to to have the week that we've had this week. As part of the continuum, this is just this is apex. I think for me this week I had to you know I? Have my moments, too. I sort of had to take a little bit of a break for a little bit because I think I. Think People appreciate my communist on on on twitter and on air and I was kind of losing it. I mean it is. You know this is a you know just looking at the numbers of what's happening in in huge chunks of the country now over half the state showing up and Kudos to Massachusetts and Governor Baker. For our incredible work, but you know you get the sense that we you know made the chew sacrifices these. People suffered in ways that the three of us did not you know, and and then you these you know these denial list, and these governors just and these ideologues just sort of ignoring that the virus sets the pace, and so now we're. We're waiting for them to figure out what we had figured out, and I think what's interesting is what you're seeing. A lot of advising mayors and governors and stuff and what you're seeing is You know the the the fifty state strategy which was demanded by trump. Trump because he fails to take and leadership. You're seeing it now again in masking I think I think with with what's happening with the Republicans beginning to buy onto a masking policy from pence and Cheney and just Santos and you know they're not. They're not mandatory, but nonetheless they are now beginning to accept math you're gonNA. You'RE GONNA. See I think it's close to a national masking standard as will get under this administration, and then you're going to simultaneously start to see reclosing and bars in particular. There's there's just. So horrible for the industry. I know there's so many wonderful people who have ours, and it's their only source of income It is just the data's pretty clear that for for states that have spreads and not not Massachusetts which may be able to open up bars, meaningful league relatively soon. You just can't have open right now. At the beginning we were looking at Germany and Singapore China. South Korea of the countries that we're doing it right. China accepted you wonder if if we were just doomed to fail when we saw that, there was a question of leadership, and how that was filtering down, but also just are magnitude, just our size we're. We're so much bigger than Singapore of course or Germany. How do you reconcile what we were trying to do? Versus what other dacians have Denver done very successfully with little hiccups, we might add, but but largely successfully it seems. Yeah, I think the size you know America's so big indifferent it's not is is you know is descriptive, but it doesn't have to be sort of normative. I mean in other words. They're they're. All pandemic planning requires a central or or national government is all meeting in the United, states that set Bay Pines for for every step of the way everything from Is this thing company coming and so preparing communities for it by you know having testing, and and trying to stop commute spread to to standards for closure sure, and when the when the country needed to close down to standards for reopening, which failed to do to you know guiding PP in the supply chain. The trump administration is abrogated Studi and it's obligation every. Every step of the way, so you've got your your left to sort of the governor and the mayors and many of them have really risen to the occasion, not without mistakes and you know I'm not I. Don't you know it's no fun to you know? Have the governor realize too late that what they need to do? But nonetheless you really are seeing federalism at play, but it really shouldn't be this way. They're really needed to be. National Standards if only to give these Republican governors cover I mean in other words if trump been out with math. Six weeks ago as the as the CDC required, you have to dissent those you wouldn't have had the abbot of Texas or the descendents of Florida. They would've bought onto it and save lives so It's very infuriating, but you know now it's just you're just trying to minimize the harm having this president as President with you know with a with you know with the faculty and others trying to fill in the gaps. Well. I want to say that the the. Pandemic response was in place. Mean just the the very dismantling of that the removal of people in places you know Americans so stationed in China and other places. Their whole job is to watch for the beginning. Signs of a possible pandemic gathered data deal with their colleagues and report to the United States. They were pulled immediately. The CDC's budget was cut, so this was never going to be the response that we need to have. It's just that in this particular president. It's been exacerbated and exacerbated to the extent that. We are now. Not on a list of approved travel partners to the EU the EU has decided that United States. People from the United States are a danger to people in the EU in Europe. We cannot travel there. T talk a little bit about that because vast. Japan in China and travel there. Yeah, so I just wrote a just wrote. My most recent Atlantic column is about this which I could see the writing on the which is essentially, and it's a it's A. It's a irony. which is trump lawn didn't want to own Oh the! Father reasons you say like didn't want to own response eighteen with incapable. He wanted to be the state by state level, so you had fifty state strategy to the outside world, though there's only one United States of America. We are and we are judged by our sickest. States right and our moaning and our most negligent leaders, so you know Europe can't say if you're from new. York you're fine Massachusetts it has got a look at the country as a whole so the EU. and rightfully so this is not the e useful to you looks at US and says look we've. We've not only come over the Kerr, but we now are in a position where we feel confident that we can test an trace to stop any more major outbreaks in the United States is not at that stage yet. Yet I want everyone to understand. One of the consequences of these numbers is. We do not have tracing capacity, so we're just now. You know it's everywhere you just. There's too many people who have it at this stage. So the was absolutely right there. Leading in other countries because those countries have taken their national obligation. Seriously, it's not to say or governors here haven't but many heaven and we are. You know what I'm calling the summer of isolation and we're gonNA feel in many ways. It's not just the you feel with other. Countries as well in terms of total prohibition because they just can't risk. Were were viewed as sick right. We're viewed as contagious everything. So you're GONNA see it. In terms of trade poultry supply chain not that I care. 'cause I can't believe anyone is taking a cruise, but the cruise ships are not coming back here. You know I I can't believe anyone taking a cruise, but nonetheless and so that's what you're going to start to see America isolated until we can get our act together. That may not be until you know. We see a a any president. Louis ask you that in this goes back to your your first point about wh- what we thought was going to be happening while we're all doing our work and staying at home when we now realize wasn't happening, are we at the point of no return I? Mean if contact tracing? Has To be one of the biggest signifier is for for reopening in allowing global travel, and we understand that a Massachusetts as hard as we have tried. It's not even completely effective California, which would eight, which is at the beginning able to be on top of a lot of this through employing technology, especially with the technology base out on the West Coast. We now see that the situation and there is a and then you begin to wonder. How do we begin to find our way out of this or always stuck until there's a vaccine? Well we're not having. State and I really think it's important that people not view the vaccine sort of like okay. That's GONNA. Be Our ultimate solution because I think it makes us believe that you know if only we could. Just you know. Hold our breath for long enough. You know that that we need to learn to build society around living with the virus, not that I you know I'm somewhat skeptical about the pace of a vaccine. Seems to be ahead of us. Madeira is I've sort of lost track of after that original pressure these and so we may be week, not just the vaccine, but we may be. You know much must away from a strong distribution protocol I? Believe Ouchi when he says he hopes it's going to be the beginning of twenty twenty one, but that's a long time away, so we need to figure out exactly. How do we live with this thing? And so basically it is this it you know it one is we have to? We have to get this this this. You know one point one way. The second way we need to get it under control. In these states that are in Red Arizona Texas Florida possibly California because we gotta get ready for wave to that doesn't mean we're at a standstill until then it just means that anything would strong contact intensity like. Watching sports bar stuff like that. We really do just you just gotTa. Write it off for twenty twenty. I don't know what else to tell people And we'll, we'll get to a good place at some stage, but we're not there yet. And then you need to have really strong mitigation strategies, and that begins an doesn't end, but it begins with masking. We just need to accept that as the norm as a default for some period of time, most countries in Europe are now D- masking zero, so it's not forever. It is just until we can. Until the virus has nowhere else to go, and now it has plenty places to go, so and then we figure out. How do we open schools? which is something that you know? We need to figure out how how we in some fashion, whether it's hybrid or whatever else get students back together in learning environments and focus on the things that matter like schools over bars, I mean. Please you know I mean you know, shrink at home and but it is really really you know it's important that we prioritize, but I'm i. think it's just really important mentally that we get to a stage where we just think okay, we're now. This is what I've been calling on air. You know adaptive recovery. We just have to learn to live with the virus, and and and we get really really far. By individual behavior, which is masking limiting contact intensity. We don't need the government to tell us to do that. We just need goodwill, and and and and some sort of you know community engagement with those who are unwilling to do it. So I, think these. You can tell me if you disagree. But I think these things are connected, so you know what we're talking about now with. The. United States of America, essentially becoming you know the world's greatest democracy becoming a pariah nation. because it is viewed by the rest of the world as as sick and weak, we're almost like a microcosm of of trump himself sort of sick, weak and kind of angry about a lot of different things. Put that in the context because I think this weakens US tremendously and put that in the car. I want you to put that. In the context of this story, which I think is be around for a very long time about. The president and the White House. No, since twenty nineteen, yet Russia was offering bounties to Afghan. Militants mercenaries to kill United States troops and coalition troops in the troops of our allies known since two thousand nineteen. and. In the Hanley work, it's just absolutely no response whatsoever, and while that's going on. He's doing things like having six and seven conversations with Putin and inviting him back into the to make the G. Seven the. I just I'm dying to get your entire. Take on this because it is just gob smacking. Yeah. It's I. Mean This. Is You know I'm sort of after. Like is this story? Is this the story you know that's going to bring out look I mean. The story in November may very well likely bring him down and I. Think it's important that we support publicans and independents who are coming to that realization. If you look at the polling, it is clear that for for a vast majority in terms of of his support, even among Republicans. Now it plummeting at least one major pool you people are beginning to realize that that he's just unworthy of being a our president and. How does this happen? And no one says anything I get that he was never going to make this public. There are a bunch of people including the people in the intelligence community. How does no one say a word about this? Between Twenty nine hundred now. I know well. I mean part of it is. It's an intelligence community that does keep quiet and I. think that what happened was that they saw you know one, is you they? The debriefers don't know that nothing is happening. I mean in other words and I think part is tied to trump talking to Putin again relatively recently, inviting him to the g eight, the g whatever sticks and and and and. basically showing his cards that he really cared more about Putin and so I think that that's I think I think the fact that there wasn't a leak is probably less significant than that there than there is a leak now about our about and that and that the walk the story now is at the white. House can't come up with a story and that's because they know that. Either he knew or they didn't or he didn't cross I don't know what the right I don't know. There's no good answer to those options. I think it's very likely that the President I mean we've known that he does not. He's not interested in being president. He's he's interested in. US knowing as president and I think there's a really good really. Really key here and so and not, and that's the he he us talking about him I often say. You know member during the primary. There's so many people in the race, but Michael Bennett Senator Bennet from Colorado was and and I i. You know I kept out of the primary, but I wanNa vote for that guy. Because one stage, one of his lines was My slogan is is that if I'm president, you won't have to think about me for weeks on end. I was like I want that guy. But I. do think that the White House is scrambling with the narrative I. Think what you're starting to see this. So this is what I look. At the sixty four thousand foot level, he's lost a lot of Republicans unmasking loss Fox News, and and a lot of Republicans are necessary now. I'm asking you now lost parts of the Senate. Not all of them they are looking at the polling is a I don't want to say. It's a sinking ship because he could come back. He's GonNa. Use Race and immigration everything scare everyone, but something has given and and these and and self. Preservation is all a lot of. Of that Republican Party cares about now for a good chunk of the last couple of years that self preservation look up to us and collins seeing to be being with trump. She's now stuck and she deserves likely what she's going to get. Because no one voted for her to be trump light, right, and and so that sort of what I'm seeing across the board. We'll Julia let me just ask you quickly, and we should say this is developing, and it's getting more on Crete. By the hour especially for following the the journalistic rule, just the money and that's how we're learning so much more about this. Right. Exactly right although the President Probably has also been unwittingly created plausible deniability with all the reporting that he actually doesn't read a lot of what's put in front of him, especially with national security reports, and so forth, but can if we just have a couple of minutes left, you can just quickly describe what Russia is doing here. We know what Russia has been trying to do with our elections and what they've been trying to do via social media, but the this is I opening that this takes it to a different level. So. Basically, the and I think that the bounty question is a two things. One is probably less significant than our response. I don't mean that Tha Decorah to say. I don't care about force protection of course I do, but the targeting of military is you know unfortunately a part of warfare, and so basically the Russians come in. They want to disrupt any semblance of some sort of peace accord that we have with the Taliban and search to pay them off with big time money to kill our troops this the so so that's. A bounty for our troops just generically is not uncommon against the Geneva Conventions, but it's not. We haven't heard about that set. The crazy part is upon knowing about it right, not just the intelligence and remember who who knew this We knew it. The Europeans knew it the Russians knew it. The Afghans newish right so so lots of parties know that this is going on. And all they seeing response is trump continuing to cater to Putin, so they've got to believe if you're if you're a European intelligence agency, your not trusting. Because their. Are Aligned with their troops are also likely to get you know absorbed in this bounty. So that's the consequence of it. Is that the everyone's looking for trump to do what you think a president, would you? He doesn't do it. That becomes the story. It's a rational response to an irrational situation Juliet. We out of time. I want to tell folks to check out the interview with you in Boston magazine to find out what you got Anderson. Cooper is a baby. Great interview with Don isn't. The best part is what my mom my mom comments about. Segment which is you know I tell my daughter who is a nineteen? It never ends because I'm fifty years old, and my mother emailed me and said you look better further away from. Eight Kipper, all teenage girls out there who complain their mothers. We tell you it never. Thank you Julie, my mother. All Right Juliette Cayenne joins US every week. She's an analyst for CNN former assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security and Faculty chair at the Homeland Security. Program at Harvard Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government is always great to talk to her coming up despite Lee's latest film about the Vietnam War get Vietnam wrong. That conversation is next on eighty nine seven. W. H. whilst in public radio. Boston Public Radio Jared Bowen here with Andrea Brawl in for Jim Geraghty Margery Eagan let's Pulitzer Prize winning author Viet Thon. Win has watched just about every Hollywood movie about the Vietnam. War It's an undertaking that he describes as his own personal groundhog day experience because he knows how Hollywood Hollywood will represent Vietnamese and the Americans. It turns out watching spike. Lee's latest film to five bloods only perpetuates that sense of deja Vu the don want. Want win joins us on the line to talk about how he thinks Lee among so many other American filmmakers who have taken on the Vietnam War have gotten it wrong. He is the chair of English and professor of English American Studies and ethnicity and comparative literature at the University of Southern California, and the author of the Pulitzer Prize winning book. The sympathizer Vietnam win welcome to Boston public radio. It's such a pleasure to have you here. For Having Me Jared? I have to say. I, I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to talk with you. And I have to say that I could not agree with you more. Apart from how I feel about Spike Lee's movies. They tend to be sort of a hit or miss thing I'm so I as I watched the five bloods I was so struck by the level of cognitive dissonance. That he could. Understand the need to bring forth the tail of the Black Soldier in Vietnam and do it with so much. Empathy inhabit be so layered and so nuanced and yet have a dis- complete disconnect. When it came to the portrayal of Vietnamese characters in the movie to me, it was really glaring and I and I don't understand why it wasn't to him. Yeah, I mean. I'M GONNA huge amounts of spike Lee's movies. And you know so disappointment when I. When I first heard about five minutes, I did feel a sense of dread coming, because as much as I admire spike Lee I also know that the on work we'd be John Very well. As jared pointed out and works with certain kinds of conventions and protocols, and one of the most basic of those is that the Vietnamese people were ever any other Southeast Asian person in these movies are serving to serve merely as sidekicks. Does or just props for the American drama, an typically the American drama in these war movies have been between white men, white combat soldiers, and so what Spike Lee does in this movie is is simply just replace white men with black men, but enact very much the same kind of drama that I call a civil war in the American soul and these American movies, most typically about Americans working out their own conflicts with each other with the Vietnamese serving millions backdrop, so it was a big disappointment that spitefully couldn't couldn't see can work his way past that. Elementary Genre and I think it's because you wanted to work within the genre itself and instead of blowing it up. I think became Begin just stuck with the convention. Well to take us through moving spike Lee's film aside for a moment. This of course being the latest iteration, but what fundamentally DC I I described as you described the groundhog day experience of watching these films going back to the iconic films that we know Francis Ford Coppola and apocalypse now, but what fundamentally hasn't changed what what filmmakers are missing in the depiction Vietnamese people in the era of the war. The basically is the perception of meet people, humanity, pure and simple. The, list of roles that the Vietnamese are put into can range from the good. The bad whether that's the side kick with a lover or the Viet com or or or the evil. Villain and so on, but there's no sense of humanity because they're simply just flat stereotypes. And, of course for Americans, what is reserved for them is complex humanity by that I mean we. We see American. Human. We see them as deeply flawed and that capable of doing really atrocious things like massacring raping people and the Great Irony of the American film about Vietnam War is that they choose to show Americans through the light of being anti heroes, and what's basically happening is for Americans. be recognized that this is a bad war, but we're going to claim central center stage as the stars even if If doing terrible things now the Vietnamese then are relegated to being these virtuous or Dylan's extras, as the case might be, and really what should happen and I think you know where it's likely miss. This opportunity is to show Vietnamese. People with the same complexities, not the nickname angels but instead the render them with the same kind of fully three mental capacity for both good and terrible deeds. Yeah and I think that's exactly exactly the point. I remember I'm old. Enough I'll confess this just briefly, but I'm old enough to remember you know Criticism of Sidney Poitier when he was. he was. Probably the best known black actor. In the country, but he was. Put Him in movies where he could play a virtuous character, because it was important for a black man to be seen as a one dimensional, flawless virtuous character, and so there's a long history of black filmmakers, black filmgoers quite frankly being able to look at a screen and say and recognize characters being portrayed in a one dimensional way that fit the narrative of another, and that's why. I! I'm so puzzled by. the failures I mean. There were real stereotypes in this movie. Is a scene in particular with a vendor on a river that approaches Delaware Linda now the deal. lindos character is one of the obviously one of the five laws. There's definitely some PTSD there and I. Guess the the basis was to sort of trigger this this PTSD. Response but they end up This character ends up being very stereotypical and ends up accusing them of killing his parents and showing a great deal of anger around the Vietnam War, but it was in a very very stereotypical way, and I thought they had to be other ways for him. To to show this PTSD, response and to enlarge Delroy Lindo character, but not at the expense of the Vietnamese character. Think that almost everybody I noticed Vietnamese or who lives in Vietnam Not Vietnamese think. The movie got this wrong about the portrayal Vietnamese characters that scene, in particular, because a lot of Americans go to Vietnam during that Vietnamese we'll still have harbor bad feelings about them and about the war, and it's simply not true mostly the news much move on from the past and then George did news report after the war? War So it's not really a concern for them. They're they're much more interested in reconciliation and turning it into a capitalist country. You know what really interests me as is, what could what could have been done differently, or or why does this movie turn out the way that it did in regards to the? Vietnamese and I think you're right and bring the history of black portrayals in Hollywood for example because. It's decades for black artists and filmmakers to get the opportunity to make their own movies until their own stories rendering black people with a collect city that they deserve versus these kinds of. Portrayals you've been talking about Andrea and of course that means that it's perview the me again for Asian Americans. It's up to us to make our own portrayals to. We have to go down that same road, but again. What's disappointing is that someone has gone down that same road. Meredith scarcity's likely. Didn't fall. been the right strategies for even give us wonder too complex beaten these characters and could have been done I mean I think there are a lot of really again. Flat stereotypes in that movie got rid of all of them and focused on one one portrayal of someone who is complex that could have interacted with the five floods, and but it didn't really happen. What are the consequences of the culmination of or or or the massing of of all of these films like it or not Hollywood does have a huge outsized influence on our society, and how we think even diplomacy I think because it is sort of branding sort of imagery. So what are your concerns? As this has gone on for decades without any sort of we will ask you about more positive depictions by and large without any course correction. Derek at is liberal enclave, which might be true terms of people's personal politics I don't think it's true in terms of what Hollywood puts on the screen and you know I, consider Hollywood to be our country's unofficial ministry of propaganda, because one has to force Hollywood to make movies at lionize order wrote CISE center the perspectives of Americans especially American soldiers, and so the Vietnam War movie for example or these. These new movies about Iraq and Afghanistan, almost always about the experiences of American soldiers now however, they're portrayed. We see the world through their perspectives, and we feel for them emotionally, and so, what movies do is put forth in American point of view, and it's very powerful even people around the world who oppose America politically love oftentimes a lot of American movies, and it's one of the great ironies. Of Hollywood can do to people protect productions so I think Hollywood Hollywood's perceptions are very important globally, and in the United States and its when we talk about movies like the Vietnam war movie genre talking about entertainment. We're talking about a type of genre that helps. Americans see the world in particular way centered around the US. Central. American experiences ignoring how American foreign policy affects others, and I think this does affect American attitudes towards what we do politically and militarily overseas. Mai Cong Review Dot Com. CA The reviewer was reviewing the five bloods. said they immediately went to your twitter feed because they wanted to see what your reaction was to the movie and What this tells me is I absolutely need to follow you on twitter? But. The there was a particular tweet and it's your pin tweet, and you say writers from a minority right as if you are the majority, do not explain, do not cater, do not translate. Do not apologize assume everyone knows what you're talking about. As the majority does right with all the privileges of the majority, but with the humility of a minority. And I absolutely love that tweet. I think that is good advice, just practically every situation for a writer. WHO's in a minority? But. What you I think part of what you see with the with the Spike Lee thing is an internalized that even as you push against racism directed at your own race, you have internalized and have embedded. Racism against others and the adoption of stereotypes against. And it seems to be so difficult. To separate that out to recognize it, and and you know you wrote about the fact that your book sympathizer for which he won a Pulitzer Prize by the way. That your book. The sympathizer could have been the movie. Defy blood. I. Can you talk about that a little bit? Well, yeah, I think that your as a as a Vietnamese American writer, and as they minority or personal color in this country, you know I and many others who are in my situation, as writers often feel the allegation to explain ourselves explain our cultures translate whoever we are to two other people to mature audiences at the power to publish books or by our books, and that's the wrong way to go about it and so wrote the sympathizer as a way of defining those kind of. Of expectations it's. It's a novel that you know. kicks the the the model of pockets mail very seriously you know apocalypse now is a movie that doesn't apologize for what Americans didn't get on. Simply portrays that forces people to confront and deal with this harsh reality of that war was because I could find Francis Ford. Coppola can do it I can do it. I don't have to explain Vietnamese. People or culture portrays as angels are victims I can portray these people doing the same kinds of horrible things. That happen that Americans claim for them and Vietnam. Because I want to claim that dramatic central spotlight for us and part of the story in the sympathizer is a long sequence about the making of a Hollywood movie. The look suspiciously like apocalypse now, but it's actually a compilation of all of the American war movies, and it satirizes what that what the making a movie is like in the place of the Megyn that and I was focusing. Obviously on the on the white actors directors because that's who makes. American movies about Vietnam. But the bloods ironically again despite having a black cast, and the black director just repeats the same motifs, and I think that basically blasting your point about internalizing racism a very serious thing I mean I'm challenging Spike Lee on this, but I, think all of us are. All the patient ourselves. My thought included the long. Long Learning Process and hopefully these kinds of critiques help us to think about what we can turn allies. is any of that ground shifting? You just think. This goes on and on and on, and and you wonder why, especially in the last couple of years where we've had more conversations around race in heritage, y filmmakers haven't been more innovative why they haven't broken open these stories and told them through different points of views or questioned everything. That's come before them. I think for Hollywood. For example it boils down from my perspective about money and movies costs, if you million dollars or hundred million dollars you talking about that much money, it's very hard to change people's perceptions. They WanNa work with what they understand. They wanna work with, Genre. Precedents and you come on and say. Let's make a movie about getting these people or at least give them full fuller Vietnamese voices. They're hesitate so I mean historically when it comes to getting on more for example, the people who have been the most innovative I, I've been the poets and the poets with Antiwar Writers I. Started thinking about getting these people and other South Asians and that's because poetry is cheap. The cost is the poet's wife. Hollywood Rubicon. And you know executives and get scared I. WanNa say that I. I you know it is depressing because Michael mandate making a new miniseries about the battle way and I it I'm just shaking with fear about what that's going to be like, but you know. Watchmen came along last year, and it actually had a pretty good portrayal of Vietnamese people in their problems with it I wrote a whole Washington Post critique of his, but generally it was a it was a significant advance in a lot of ways so I think it can't be done I. think people just. Just need to read the criticism. Think a little bit about the scholarship. Get some Vietnamese people in their or other whoever whoever it is that you're supposed to be representing their points of view behind the scenes, because again so much emphasis is placed. We play on the after our what we see on the screen with the names of the directors are Hollywood. Like every other industry is unequal behind the scenes. You know so real change. It's not going to happen until we have. These people behind the scenes become more diversified into whole black lives. Matter Movement is making. Everybody confront the composition of who the staff saw. What was it like for you to grow up watching these films and seeing again this this one consistent sort of unwavering portrayal. Throughout your childhood and into adulthood. Well I grew up you know. Most of my life has an American and certainly has an American child watch a lot of American. More movies I always identified with the Americans watching John Wayne Movies for example and then coming to the Vietnam War movies, it was very disturbing because I identify with the American soldiers up. Until the point they killed or raped or massacre, getting people then split in two. And, so this is an experience that that's very common. I think for those of us who don't happen to be white. In this country, we all have our particular confrontation with stereotypes and racism, especially in mass media affects us deeply, and so when it comes to the story I think the those of us who grew up that way. Don't pick stories for granted You know you know that you're a member of the majority when you can kick stories for grants. If you get a bad portrayal of your white person, get better trail. Trail the white person you're like well. That's just stupid. STORY STUPID MOVIE! You have two thousand other options to choose from your minority or a person of color. You get one movie one story at a time for example, and when that movie portrays you in a bad way in a negative way that hurts you. That really matters so that's why I think the for me growing up in that way that kind of the seats for me to want to storyteller, not to be a moviemaker, but to be a writer I could contest. These, Tell my own stories eventually with a sympathizer. GET REVENGE! Getting on war movie. Do you, think I, I agree with you completely an an an especially about the notion of not having the luxury of multiple choices, not having the luxury of being able to fail at things as an individual, but only as A. Representative, member of another group I think that's just very deep In our culture. But you know D- Did. You ever think. Or do you think now that there are greater opportunities than ever before? Just because there's such a huge number of channels out there to right from that are developing original content. Do you see? A pathway to enlarge and increase the voices. Of people who are going to bring that perspective because I'm looking at you know from Netflix to Amazon prime to all of their other smaller channels, but independent stream channels, and finding content that I never thought I would be able to. Absolutely and I think it's I mean there's so much more work to be done, but there have there have been changes, and it's because people have been working at this for generation. Black who've been trying to make Hollywood and so on, but you know Asian Americans have been around in Hollywood, since the silent era with Jesse High Akaba and then with anime Wong later. And he was early trend, the early innovators, and for decades Asian Americans that the they're trying to get their stories, told getting past the stereotypes, and all that kind of thing so now, of course you do see more Asian American actors doing some things and behind the scenes, people of color of all kinds of trying to get these stories made, and and you know new new a a class of the of the of the American Academy of Motion. Picture is is is. Is more diverse than ever. So everybody is making change in individual areas and collectively adds up to the possibility of you know telling the writing screenplays getting these stories made on Netflix's or whatever, and so there isn't accumulating wave of these kinds of opportunities. Things are better than they were when I was growing up, but you still get some. You know horrible representations coming along, which is why we're still dealing with black bass, and you know negative actions agent in mass media. I want to go back to something. You just mentioned about earlier on the interview about the Vietnam today, and how there are so many younger people who don't even have an association with the war, and I realised that my own prism of Vietnam largely husband formed by these films, and and if I were to go, there would be some sort of immediate connection to history by give us a sense of of what the true une Hollywood Vietnam is. Getting on the country last on a check of about ninety million people by more than that by now and you know a lot of is still agricultural, but there are big cities in Hanoi and Saigon, and so forth, and if you go visit them, they are just basically capitalist. Enterprises again it's the key. The country's run by communist party, but almost everybody the Communist. Party is the capitalist, basically, so the primary incentive is to make money, and just you know, don't. The Communist. Of the government, and the overwhelming majority of people were born after the war their exposure to the war in is really dead history. You know because if you're an American tourist and you go to Vietnam Chances. Are You WANNA? Do the the the the the tourist route that takes you to the historical sites and everything then you'll get exposed to official memories of the war, but even most people are not paying attention to that. It's an offense of tourists most concerned about that. So outside of this to those historical museum and monuments and memorials, most of what you see in Vietnam is just people living their daily lives. Trying to build businesses trying to send their kids to school made them WanNa? Send their kids. International schools, including the United States I've met many many international students from Vietnam here in the United States. It's a changing country. You know it's basically I trying to become something like Singapore Taiwan or South Korea and it's. It's getting there I think and then the ironic thing is just getting going back to Hollywood. There was so much discrimination in Hollywood against asian-americans at a lot of Vietnamese. American filmmakers artists and actors I know went to Vietnam to do their careers, and so the Vietnamese film industry you know is a lot of people in there are are getting means, Americans, they. Irony of the American dream, as they could not find those opportunities in the United States had to get down to to become movie, stars and directors, and so you'll see a lot of returning Vietnamese Americans and giving me from other countries. Go there to pursue opportunities as well. Finally before we leave you, let me just ask you as I promised. Where can we turn to find more thoughtful more fair representations Vietnam. Well if you're just talking about the war, I think that you know, you can see journey from the fall by Ham Tran, it's an epic about the south meetings experienced from the fall onto the making the refugee getting means America. It's on. You could buy the DVD on Amazon. one of the actors in the movie divide bloods gummy to win. Who is your was I? Believe stuntman man for Spiderman, and then you're gonNA action Sunday at nine. You can check out his film. The rebel which is a lot of fun. It's a anti-colonial French movie about martial artists, and also on Amazon through DVD's and book widely considered to be the plastic of of Vietnam war cinema from the Vietnamese point of view is when the tenth month comes by then getting in the most important revolutionary. Director. You can see that on. Youtube was subtitles. Finally just to see. What did it mean? Cinemas doing nothing at all to do with history of the war is Fury F. U. R., I., E. On Netflix now, starring Veronica know who has a role in defied blood. Hanoi Hannah and You know you'll see us. Star Wars as well, but you know again most of. Beating me cinema, dot, ghosts, and or films and martial artists nothing the to with the. and. But you can see her. You can see her acting chops. Yes, in She's got some serious chops of and I'm sorry that we're. We're out of time, but I would have I really actually WanNa talk to you a little bit more about Johnny Wind because I I was. I was a little bit fascinated with his character. I thought they did didn't do anywhere near as much as they could have with it, but his history, and what he could have been in that movie I wanted to talk to you about, but we, but we're. Sadly we are out of time. It has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you. and we so appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. For much. The Don Excuse me. The Don Wynn is the air all arnold. This is a mouthful share of English and professor of English American Studies. Ineptness necessity incompetent literature at the University of southern. California and the author of the Pulitzer Prize winning book the sympathizer. Thank him for joining us. It was a great discussion coming up. We are talking all things tech with Andy and NOCCO keep your dial on eighty nine seven WGC. Boston public radio. Public Radio, joining us now to go over the latest headlines at the intersection of tech, policy and commerce is Andy and NOCCO he's a tech writer and blogger and great grammar with his photos I? My Dad got signed his work at Dot Co Dot Com and you can follow him at. Great to be with you again Andy. Great to be here. How are you? Hanging in hanging on. So FACEBOOK and I I will say this right upfront. I I really genuinely just like facebook I've never had a personal page and I, and I have been watching in horror as as They've become a bigger and bigger platform. For hate speech with apparently no desire to do anything about that, but there appears to be some pushback. Tell us about that. Yeah the The the the problem with facebook is that obviously it's not. It's not like they haven't been doing anything against hate speech on this platform, but they haven't really been doing enough, and they haven't really been training it like a big priority. Particularly given the power that hate groups have when they spread their messages on facebook, so a whole bunch of social organizations including the Defamation League the NWPP commonsense the national expedia media coalition a very very long list of groups. Groups decided to come together to form a coalition calling themselves stop eight for profit, and they have been pressuring advertisers to initiate if Thirty Day boycott of advertising against Facebook to sort of humble them into taking a more a more active approach against advertising because like I said I don't want to say that they haven't been doing anything, but it consistently to my opinion. They've been doing as much as they can possibly do to simply keep themselves out. Out of the newspapers for aiding and abetting hate speech they have not been doing enough. The guy at the top mark Zuckerberg he facebook is interesting in that it really is one person who controls the entire company that his opinions on how the company should run affects everything the company does, and he has been very very complacent about the importance of Don. Hate speech, and finally we've. We've seen with so many advertisers agreeing to sign up for this. This boycott including Ford VW Honda Adidas, Coca Cola starbucks Unilever Pfizer, the long long list of huge and small advertisers. They're finally coming back to the table and trying to it's it's enough of a of a crisis for them and their advertisers who've had long been upset about hate speech appearing near their ads that they're finally forced to make a a really critical change here, but what's in it for? Why do you think Mark Zuckerberg has to be forced to do this? Again, it's weird Oh. This is just my opinion of observing him in the company for a long time but I think he has that kind of young tech billionaire syndrome where he didn't spend ten years working in a for lack of a better word real jobs. He struck it rich with facebook right away. He became incredibly rich and incredibly powerful right away. Away, which tends to make some people in Silicon, Valley think that while I'm a visionary. Tony Stark. I Have I've seen years into the future and I can't. I can't be I can't be. I can't be distracted with such petty simple things that ordinary users are affected by overstating things of course, but I think that there is some truth in that and. and. It is true that if Zuckerberg does not think something as a primary for facebook, it is not a priority for facebook. Well, so Andy I mean this is where I wonder about this. I often have great reservations about boycotts. Only in that so often they fizzle out at the end of the day. They fail to continue to get the media attention although this is a big one to have all of these people public memory is short so thirty days who will be talking about this again in thirty days, and then to your point about Mark Zuckerberg. If you're figure in the world, who has basically all of the money? Does it even matter to you that this boycott is happening? It does matter if that is eight percent of your revenue comes from advertising this one source and it's what's wonderful about this about this movement is that. The pressure is coming from multiple directions at the same time like I said it's not though Coca Cola and the rest of these companies don't care. If they've always been look, you've got to fix this problem. We like you as an advertising platform. We like the way that you abuse the privacy of all of your users so that we can target our ads affectively, but we cannot stand the fact that there are people who are inciting violence against groups, and now we're trying to say hey. We've got our new Fizzy Cola now with more Tangerine next to this. Messaging and now the if one advertiser pulling out or one advertisers, saying we're pulling back doesn't have a whole lot of meeting behind, but when all of them are doing, it are excuse are being induced by this coalition to do this as a group and also individual users have the ability to ask a company. That's advertising on facebook. Why are you not taking part in this boycott that really starting to hit the bottom line and remember that Zuckerberg's freedom and facebook's freedom comes only if they can continue to make money at continue to be Overlook, prop overlook certain responsibilities that they have to society and I do think that this is going to be. More effective than most although of course, there are problems with this with this protest well next stop twitter so that they can actually ban Donald Trump's account for hate speech, fomenting civil war things like that. You know twitter. Twitter gets a ton of advertising. and. It relies on those advertising dollars, but they have a serious problem, and they have a serious problem with with serious problems, a lot of twitter accounts, but the twitter account of the president of the United States is among the most problematic. Yeah I I'm not I'm not willing to Go against twitter as much as I'm willing to against facebook and other organizations. No No, no, no, no Jack. Exactly I thought that that is an excellent point for for one thing I do applaud them for being willing to pull the Tiger's tail by saying okay. Guess, what. We've we know that we know that trump hates us time that we put. We make any sort emotions about controlling hate speech from from from his account on twitter, but nonetheless we are going to added Info box. explained that no voting by mail does not recur does not reduce it. Good result of fraud voting by mail has been happening for decades, and it's really not a problem and then boom you get an executive order two days later and then, and then twitter simply doubles down against it also they have been doing very very good job and trying to continue. Continue to evolve their user policies to address problems as their occurring again the power of twitter to steer speech and steer thought in this country across the world is such that they have to be held to a much much higher standard, but I do get the impression that they get that from the very very top down. They do th take this responsibility. seriously. That's just my opinion, though well for now the next stop or maybe the previous top was read it in terms of hate hate speech. Tell us what's happened there and for people who don't know exactly what read it is. Read it is a is a really really great site that most people should know about. It's a if they social. It's kind of a social media site, but mostly what it does, is it lets people create communities of people with a common interests all the way down to people who are trying the new iphone Beta to people who collect old tape recorders all the. The way to political groups, social groups, transgender groups, and because these groups are there called separates because these separate. It's aren't created by read. itself is created by the users. Obviously, there's great potential for people to create hate groups within read it and read it has been working to. It's always been a problem with ready to make sure that they're controlling this kind of. Community this week, however on Monday, they announced a huge new change to a holistic change to their content, the content guidelines, and it's part of these content guidelines they completely. From read, it permanently banned two thousand of these communities for violating for consistently violating policies, and what's again talked about pulling the tail of the tiger they one of the one of the most notorious subsets one called the underscore Donald, which is eight, hundred, thousand, very very very ultra right-wing of. Political people who are kind of rabid support, not not not okay supporters of of trump, but really radical supporters trump using that forum for again hate speech, inducing violence, and so they took their one of their biggest communities, and also the one that's going to attract the most heat from from up on high for them, and they say guess what you're completely permanently banned they they've. They've temporarily banned them for for thirty days when their moderators. Group says self moderators have refused to control their communities. But this is no. You're done. You're gone completely. That's a really strong message in a really really strong action. And it's great because you don't have. Everybody always weighs in on social media platforms, and says you know you're you're censoring us. You're violating my right to i. e to the first. Amendment, it's like no, no, no, this is the First Amendment applies to Government Action Congress shall make no law. This is a private company. They can do whatever they want. so I'm glad that they're exercising the authority that they have to to quell this stuff. A letter, the danger to these to these companies to remember that this is one of the sticks that the GOP is trying to use to add to mobilize its base to say hey, with all of these social media companies. They're trying to stifle your free speech. They're letting the the liberal content. The Democrat content gone go out without a controls whatsoever, but anytime we stand up for good conservative values boom. They get slammed down and removed. Don't fight. Fight Back Register to vote, make sure you vote in November, so this is also being backed up by Congress people who are actually tried to introduce legislation to week and the free speech protections that are built into These public message forums specifically to make sure that they can have some control over whether their messages get banned or controlled or not. So this is a provocative move to say the least and especially during an election year. As they stick with it if they if they're strong and they don't capitulate I think at the end of the day. They ended up having a lot more power. But I wanted to. I have to tell you the sandy and I'm sure you'll be you know. Appropriately flattered. When I read this story I, I actually thought to myself somewhere India? NOCCO is reading the story and screaming into the Voi-. About seventeen thousand people who are. Protesting the murders of George Floyd Brianna Taylor on Omri a marketing company. was participating in. That protest is well. Tell us how they were participating. Yeah I talked about this last time. I was on I I was talking about look. If you're going into a protest with your phone or even any time in the future when you're going past a large group of a huge gathering where people you might WanNa, turn off your phone or do things so that your phone can't be tracked and. I think that Jim called me paranoid So, it's okay if listeners think I paranoid songs. They're aware that it's really possible to glean a lot of information about who you are. Who you're with what you like what you dislike when where you go what you might do in the future, simply by the fact that you're carrying this radio beacon into her crew of people, and of course we found out that there's There's this company. One of many many media companies This one is called media mobile wallet. They've described themselves as the world's most trusted source for independent mobile audience data at scale, and they're using its technology to track about a third track is too strong a word but. IDENTIFIES, seventeen thousand people who are at four different protests in Minneapolis, New, York Los Angeles and Atlanta on May twenty ninth, and they produced a very very fine grain, report and released it to the public entitled George, George Floyd. Protester demographics, insights across four major US cities that was Kinda scary and Learned about the the demographics of these protests simply from the information who was able to gain by being able to identify people who were at that protests and cross reference that against information that they already have on who they are, but as what what racial background what economic background everything sixty pie charts, sixty pie charts of information in the. The document, and that really does go to show that how powerful these absolutely uncontrolled technologies are It's bad enough when son go. Maybe we can sell these people, snow, tires and shirts how to do protesters bye, bye, bye, salsa, which came, and in which case what what flavor of salsa would they be marketed towards? It's even worse when you have A. A matching a government that really doesn't like the people protesting on this topic. What if you wanted to find out that here? The people who are not specifically the names, but here's the demographics of the people who are at these protests, and now let's figure out ways we can keep these communities silent and keep these communities afraid. It's a super super scary thing to. To consider any as you advise people to just turn off your phone when you go to these events or when you're passing, we just have about thirty seconds left Antioch but the thing I was screaming into the void about so I'm going to be thirty seconds to tell me why when I buy next iphone. It's going to come and a half empty box. It's Pastas that the iphone twelve will not give you a lot. Include a charger or earphones, the argument therapy that well there's about a billion tons of electronic of e waste in the former power adapters every year. If we don't give you your Fourth Fifth Sixth Unnecessary Power Adapter Navy. We're GONNA we're. GonNa fight against e. ways it also because it'll be a smaller box, we can ship more with less gasoline because we can put more more iphones at a certain shipping container, and they have kind of a point I can't even I stopped even like putting all my chargers and a little drawer. Like, okay When I moved, it was like how many how many chargers do I want to take the new house? And I kind of ended it at like ten so. We'll we'll deal with all. Judy well. Candy joins US regularly. He's a tech writer and blogger. You can find his work at a not co dot com, and you can follow him at in NOCCO. Thank Sandy always good to see you talk to you in this case, thank you for listening to another edition of Boston, public radio. Our crew is Chelsea. Moore's Arjun. Singh Zoe Matthews. Hannah Ugali Aidan Conley are. Is John The cloth Hawker our offsite engineers or miles Smith and Dave Goldstein Jared Bowen. It is always good to see you, but I've missed you terribly and this was. This'll carry me for at least another six months a me, too, but we'll be doing more of this this summer. I do want to point out to people. Jim Because he's a workaholic can't take the entire day off, so he's still doing greater Boston tonight where he will be joined by Keith Lockhart previewing the fourth of July celebrations, even though it can happen in person, the Boston pops has put together really fantastic compilation of prior events and brand new events that have recorded just for. For the occasion, he'll also be joined by two epidemiologists. Who will discuss do's and don'ts fourth of July weekend. I will be doing the do's and don'ts just so. I can spend more time with you. Andrea Crawl of course. I can't wait. We're GONNA have a lot of fun this summer you and I? We are I'm knowing I'm Andrea Cabral have a great afternoon.

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Lucas Aoun, Ergogenic Biohacker reveals which "Nootropic" breaks brains...

Limitless Mindset

1:21:52 hr | 1 year ago

Lucas Aoun, Ergogenic Biohacker reveals which "Nootropic" breaks brains...

"I'm Jonathan with limitless mindset and today I am happy to be joined by Lucas Arrigo genetic health. How're you doing today? Fantastic Jonathan Gruber bed. Okay and I was real excited to you excited to talk to you a little bit background on Lucas. He is a total biohacking and Nutro Vicks AFICIONADO. She has seven years of real hands on experience with nutro picks. He's really He's really dive deep into all aspects of this whole biohacking thing. And he combines it with a NATUROPATHIC PHILOSOPHY. He's super passionate about all of the research and about looking into the latest in things like exercise science in things like a nutraceutical science and he's also the creator of the brainiacs neutral. Bec- supplement which is interesting product. That has caught my attention that I will suggest people check out. 'cause it's kind of a unique combination of new tropic items and then he has a really great instagram feed that. I'd suggest that anyone into health stuff go and check out. He's got sixteen thousand followers which he has amassed a rather rather quickly over there on instagram. And so I'm curious. Look what bio hacks are you on at the moment. Currently I'm actually playing around with a lot of Insulin sensitizing agents. So things that can basically allow me to Shuttled Glucose obviously from my diet like a high carbohydrate diet and see how that affects my performance in the gym is on. I guess a lot of people a of people right now dealing with some sort of You know some sort of degree of insulin resistance and Just just on from doing a racer. I realized that this is really the whole mock of Pay Health and performance and permission. So it's just something innovative sort of tapping into playing around with some Awful Insulin sensitizing agents. Yeah so basically. Just being playing around with Mostly botanical like botanical well-known antibiotic agents. A lot of them can be sounding like sort of like some pre workouts in like Jd products that are on the market. So they just recently being experimenting with like upper nobelists extracts. I played around with Bergreen for a little bit and and only recently started experimenting with Metformin as well. Just say that affects my sort of constitution and these creating a new trumpet performance enhancing effect. That's pretty apparent. Bomb is in regards to like Reducing the sort of slump that you get from a high carbohydrate Mu. I'm not someone who is very insulin resistant. But I could imagine that someone who is Go some degree of insulin resistance if they would derive a lot of benefit from these Because if they're not able excite at Alzheimer's is just taught three diabetes for the Brian. Must because we just not event disease condition we cannot simply use sugar effectively and obviously a lot about neurons and brain. Cells rely upon a steady stream of glucose and if we're not able to efficiently breakdown. Carbohydrates this single glucose molecule. Then you're going to struggle to Efficiently reform cognitively. And how long have you been? The foreman robbing flying around with it for about a couple of weeks. Now A pretty small doors like five hundred milligrams And always with like a very high hydrate new as well But it has some other interesting effects like almost if you're saying some of the like in Europe protective qualities of Metformin also You know it does up regulate it's quite good semaine because it actually up regulates cortisol and lay people alike fearful of cortisol but really without cortisol. We wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning. Certainly that's what gives us up and moving. What sort of dosage of Metformin are you using? Just five hundred milligrams extended release okay and for people who might not be familiar with. It met four. Men is a pharmaceutical. It's a pharmaceutical. That's been around for quite a while and it's actually one of the most studied ever pharmaceuticals. There was for example a study. It was a five thousand person. Diabetes study that was done with metformin largest ever diabetes study and end Metformin is one of the few pharmaceuticals that does work really consistently for diabetics and it works they. I believe the amp K. And and the M Tor pathway and it's also something that bodybuilders really like I've seen some content I rather large human beings talking about how metformin is the day. P people will sometimes call amp K. Boosters which is like there's metformin there's a Bergomi Bergreen I believe. And Oh what's the other one Rasp view of Jesus that the name of it is going to come to me but people bodybuilders will use this because it's can kind of be a workout in a pill it? It gives people just a lot more muscle gained for the effort there exerting in the gym so it's become pretty popular in the self experimentation biohacking community A lot of people are using it. Who actually aren't diabetic. Yeah exactly man. Sickly round the the whole bodybuilding saying. They they tend to do derive benefit from it And particularly on a heavy bulk like they. They're having a lot of calories. You know. That's a perfect time. When they becoming more insulin resistance sort of utilize metformin to counteract the now. There is something that I heard about metformin and it motivated me to not use metformin and maybe you can tell me about your experience. I heard that metformin makes your business in the bathroom. Really Really smelly. That is a muscle actually noticed that closely like so far with mine specimens But that's a well-nigh I mean that's a volunteer inside effect on. Yeah I guess it's does have some what we do. Buy Some literature that does up regulate Aca Manziel like the bacteria ECHINACEA and Got Bacteria. Itself has a plethora of them positive health effects from restoring lakey got to improving Cholesterol to a range of beneficial effects are just that in of itself shows. Metformin has a positive effect of the Mockery Blind. And so you've been on it for how long just about two weeks of skipped a few days because of don't really feel like I need it. It's not it's not very it's not a rigorous experiment that I'm doing at the moment applying rabbits and other cool things on which we can touch on this. Well if you want sure what else are you into? Yeah currently Trying to up regulate Jabba be receptive And why I'm doing that is by. Using the compound armored hardware toll rate should know that so basically. That's found from red algae. It's a derivative of terrain that access. Gabby antagonists. Essentially it puts you into it. Almost platoon to a site of steady withdrawal as soon as you taek withdrawal. Yes as Mike. How people describe how feel off to they've used any like abused fabled got the at a negative. You know four mood. Irritable really on edge on yet. I've never experienced it but it sounds pretty awful. Yeah mother evolve never used any bought but basically on basically tightly anti anybody to create a longer-term anybody state accents. Yeah that sounds. That's interesting that you know. I have used quite a bit of and I enjoyed it quite a bit. So if you could if you could perpetuate that without ending up with a Gaba receptor de sensitivity. That would be. That would be pretty cool. What what is the evidence that led you to that experimentation roads based on some of the invader research on harmless forain acting as Gabby antagonists in like in in the in the in the gap in the gap because we have a lot of gag receptors found within the within the and basically it was one day. Since study. Showing that a hundred Tory knacks gabby antagonise in the billion of like this morning tests on And if you even like some Simone Jesse forms some positive experiences with Haryanto rain and is even want free. Half experience with Parma. Torian someone who's bombs so the bane abusing back lesson which is a Alexa paint. Painkiller medication back with him. And he's sort of been able to restore the magic the spot back from he's been able to re re re sensitizing south to back with them. Which sort of indicates at put potentially Hummer terrains? Then sort of operated homer debater substance and from my experience. It's not a very fond compound to us. Because you feel you feel pretty shit when you take. It likes to the first experience. Nausea within bonding in its Titan yet. I feel comfortable on edge really. Yeah like it's. It's not a fun experiment but the fun comes the next day when you feel the rebound effects like the Stop Lock. It's not back affect we. I feel really really calm. The next I really police really really good mood the following day so so does that affect last just today or does it last longer I feel like I've heard at least two days where it's like sort of lingered on bought the concept the concept to get it to stick around long enough damn wholesome so for people who might not know. Lon- Jesse is probably the best anti-aging bio hacker forum. That's on the Internet. It is just a huge forum with with really vast amounts of self experimentation discussion. Going on there and you can. I like longevity because you can find some really smart people at a lot of times if you're on like read it or if your other places on the Internet it's it's kind of a race to the bottom in terms of in terms of content but one Jesse you can find people that are like legit anti-aging researchers scientists people who really have a pretty good handle on these different pharmacological mechanisms and you can go there and you can just talk about what are you taking. What is the effect that you're trying to achieve and one justin can also be Kinda funny? 'cause you will you will run into a lot of people there that are doing some pretty risky things and you'll also run into. You'll run into people there that will be like well. I was addicted to such and such pharmaceutical four. Five years and so I- hurt by serotonin dopamine dopaminergic system in this particular way and so I took these ten other drugs and then they produced this particular effect in that and then people will chime in with different neutral Rasa dams and an. It's it's remarkable. How some people are are correcting damage. That they've done to their brain pharmacologically by using the neutral bricks and the smart drugs that are out there for show. Man Like from Jesse's. It's a pretty cool hub with a cool spice. Football is to sort of share their experiences in found a lot of cool stuff on that on that website over the past seven years was around full. And what about nutro picks are you using trucks daily? Play with Various compounds Currently what am I using now? I mean I'm using a lot of one of the ingredients. That's fan within Brian X. Y. mock products Which we can touch lighter on. It's not important now but basically One of the herbs found within their cats. Wafaa are really really lockout. Feel when I take it a lock It makes me like how it makes me feel uninhibited. It improves my musical enjoyment versus mode of action. It's a really really fantastic. Adapted from Brazil are really reluctant and using it. Daily aren't even feel like I may to basically use it. Maybe once or twice awaken affiliate could has some sort of it definitely losts why it definitely has some sort of. I'm not saying it's like Aga. But I reckon have sought has some sort of amazing like recalibrating recalibration effects on like just normalizing things. It just seems to normalize things that make you feel more like you. Why the best version of you so even the diaspora have a still feel like. There's no trashed isn't there calmed down. You still feel slightly above baseline and then it's like a gradual return backed advice on. It's like you're not cheating the physiology. You're not it's not like caffeine above by Solomon Trash then you below advice on. It's really cool. And what sort of dosage of Kaba are using yes. I'm using a Ford one extracts. He's IT ran around about five hundred milligrams yet. It just makes him water or warm water and also combined with a little bit of a Mirror Pharma which is the other ingredient in. There's a really powerful synergistic effects combining those two like. It's very reinforcing. Very goal makes you very goal oriented and Just very confident very very confident yet. The research that I've looked at so far in my article and catch Wa which will be coming out probably in about a week. What what what people were saying. Is that the MIRA. Puma inhibits the asset Coleen. Aesthetically neur- asterisk it inhibits it inhibits that which would be. If you'RE GONNA use Mirror Puma alone it would be. It would be stimulating and it would be perhaps inks Yo Genyk it would be perhaps causing causing anxiety which may or may not be what some people want you know. Everyone has kind of their own stimulatory set point and some people enjoy having a little bit of anxiety. But there's a lot of that there's a lot of synergy between those two because kept Wa has that Sir Turner Gic Affect It kept Welby has an effect. That's a bit more of a tranquilising effect. So you get something. That's that's energizing that is That's causing a bit of a cortisol release that is it has a motivating effect in combination. With something that is tranquilizing. Then you are pharmacologically cultivating this ideal mindset of relaxed arousal which is kind of. That's kind of what we're all kind of what we're all. After I was listening to a I think it was a Joe Rogan interview where they were talking about how historically what human beings have used to kind of get into get into a as a cycle of having relax. Asian arousal is that. What use caffeine in the morning to yet to stimulate a bit of energy stimulated bit of motivation and then we'll usually have like a drink in the evening. You know a lot of people a lot of people nowadays a lot of guys like me and you probably don't do this but if you look back just a little bit in our history. It was totally normal for people to have a cocktail or three in the evenings so that they could get themselves into just a bit more that that Peres sympathetic auto automatic mode exactly man. It's definitely being strategy that we've always implemented now. Obviously we have access to save anymore. Compounds that the The variety and the spice and just the thrill of the the the platform to explore. All these compounds is growing exponentially every yeah which Sure so before we talk a little bit more about catch Wa. I wanted to hear your bio hacker origin story. Yes Oh So essentially not going to play professional soccer for many years and always always sort of looking for ways to sort of optimize. My iron sporting performance on Myself experimenting with the basic new traffic such as like alcohol. I'm an all-star saying things like that and I notice positive effects from that and then essentially I developed an interest into like researching neutral Listening to podcasts. And then just figuring out things on my own luck just doing the research myself experimenting documenting tracking my own progress myron values while experiments that went to shambles Things that helped me and then yes essentially just fell in love with taking control of your health and then that sort of put me to where I am. Today where I'm finishing off my naturopathy degree. I mean my final year this year and Essentially just pushing amazing ball had content online seagrams and keeping the standard super high and sharing content. That people love at people. People are locked to short people things that they've never seen before. I WanNa bring something fresh and something new to the table and a lot of your research can be found on your website which is Erica genetic health dot COM dot. Au that's very aesthetic website. I'm impressed with your design on it and you also have a lot of great articles. Yeah Man Yeah so what? What are you planning on doing with the naturopathy degree? Yup so I'd like to obviously work with professional athletes of already had the chance to do that privately. With some nice some Hawk performing athletes. Ya within love to conducts like seminars and design webinars health content. And Damn take on take on board private clients by Deva track to help them often to help optimize their own well-being all to even help with managing some sort of dessert. Like some disease states like Like I mentioned previously like type. Two Diabetes Thyroid Health adrenal support mental mental health. That's one area that I love being a guy thing a twenty year old. I Love Spicy. I know male hormone health and actually recently just got my Aaron bit of aside matter just got my back. Being implementing many strategies to optimize my testosterone. I finally saw a comeback hundred ninety eight which is just sean as So yeah I was really thrilled to save that and feeling pretty good with with that with that sort of level but again it's not it's not all about Testosterone it's also about the other homelands Loader guys just focus on that one home line but really it's an orchestra Oli Field of women's they'd be optimized feel as well sure so probably bio hackers who are men are already familiar with some of the testosterone stuff. They're familiar with hopefully ideas like the the stress testosterone balance that. If you want to have your testosterone levels be optimal than you need to be really vigilant about stress management. People are probably aware that for example beer and alcohol have a real detrimental effect on testosterone. If you're a guy who probably one of the smartest things that the average guy that the normal guy out there can do to improve testosterone levels is just cutback on hoppy beer. Consumption as as beer is is actually the worst extra genetic things that we could put in our put in our bodies. But I'm curious. What some of your counter intuitive findings might have been in that domain. Yeah I mean obviously the alcohol in the B. is really bad from sort of stepping up. A lot of men mates avoid if they want to optimize their testosterone but even plastic water bottles. That's another one. My drinking out of plastic models is obviously the Apa even if this free just gonNA use some other plastic but has probably has some invader evidence like for its estrogens affects but not proven in humans. That's automated Not WanNA use plastic seventy Masilo gloss on and the other the other strategy which Mrs Crew Bar Heck monetize implement after today's episode and that is essentially off seeing one's bose. Why Austin on our sounds ridiculous Essentially dropping the temperature down there you know obviously a Lotta guys have called shows reported by flu right after. And I'm wondering how much of that affect Shula because I just drop it in Of the of the journalists. And that's a really important. I didn't Talk Parson on my on my instagram. Explaining y every single buys even fatuity raisins bomb wants to sort of apply. Ofek down below. Maybe like ten fifteen. I do it before the gym every Single Day. Like in the morning and then also ten minutes before bed as well. If you're not an ice pack just let it sit. Sit Down there on your crotch. What's it now okay. Let's let's let's get a little bit more detail here. So do you put you put the ice pack underneath your underwear or do you put it on top of your underwear? Obviously yeah definitely not direct exposure to the skin Possibility of damaging burning. And then you can yet. It's not a pleasant feeling but basically applying applying it through the TI on the way boxer shorts or whatever So that shows the Testicles okay so I wanna try this myself so what you do so you get you get an ice pack you get a bunch of ice cubes and you put it in a plastic Baggie you can and then and then you probably lay down or maybe you sit down and you're probably like chilling out. Maybe doing some. Meditation may be listening to music reading a book or something like that. And then you kind of just and then you put the ice pack underneath your body. So it's right underneath the ball sack exactly Yep Let with the OSS CUBES MELT ONCE. They melted that. Co Session Argo. It's GonNa cost you maybe zero point or maybe one sent to refill the Faculty Gauguin. Yeah why not? Why not all that one? A try and I was yet so I noticed that you took a swig of a bottle of San Pellegrino before restarted. And that's kind of. That's kind of the preferred hydration source of Midi Bio hackers. Because yet it's just bad news to be. Hydration is really really important of course but those. Bpa plastic bottles are really bad news. And I figured out a bit of a life hack for this because drinking San Pellegrino all day long every day that can get a little bit. Pricey. I'm not sure if everybody can afford that. So what I do. Typically as all by like one bottle of San Pellegrino. Every time I go to the grocery store that sells it here and then I am fortunate in that I have actually a a spring. I have a fresh water spring. That's really nearby where I live here in Bulgaria. Actually I have A. I have the ruins of an old Roman city nearby where I live. It's a Roman city called Sandy. In case anyone wants to go and Google that and look it up and there was as unsurprisingly. They built the Roman city next to a fresh water spring. And so now you can just go and fill up a water bottle. Fill up You can go and get all the fresh water that you want there. And so I just feel my backpack up with like five or six seven Pelegrina bottles and then I had over there and fill them up on every couple of days. I do that and so I- managed to get really high quality water and I'm not drinking it from the top and I'm not drinking it from A. Bpa Rice plastic bottle. So I suggest to people you know. The people listening might not be fortunate enough to live next to it. Roman city with a fresh water spring. But there's probably someplace not that far away from you if you live in a major city where you could get fresh water. There's there's springs a lot of places and so just go get a collection of glass models and then go and fill up on the regular and you'll be avoiding the terrible fluoridated water that comes out of your sink and you'll actually you'll save yourself quite a bit of money over getting a really fancy bottled water. Every time that's awesome man. We saw that. Yeah yeah come. Come visit me in Bulgaria. And I'll I'll I'll show it to you. Okay so I wanted I. There was some different things that you had posted about on instagram. And again you have a great instagram. That suggests that people check out and so I wanted to ask you about a couple of this. Okay so you posted. Recently you can sabotage your health with this. And you've got a picture of sunscreen. Yes yes so that that quotas there was But basically yeah basically breaking down some of the chemicals which fan many of the basic sunscreens which we can buy from a pharmacy or from supermarket With these chemicals which had nine carcinogens they amount to DNA damage a lot of them a nine to act as endocrine disrupting chemicals Some of them. Some of them can very very powerfully suppress asked them out of genesis and LOOT MAZDA HOMELAND BELIEFS. Which is definitely detrimental to two guys. Optimize testosterone are meant for the women. That is sort of a lot of these chemicals can shut down ovarian function and also cause havoc on really impaired. The the menstrual cycle. So I wanted to again. This is what I do. This is what I love doing. I really feel passionate about. He's sharing content in that regard and people can sort of take control the health and I want to say people smothering this scheme. The biggest Oldham with chemicals is just doesn't make sense to me yet and don't they? They're not Stralia people. Use a lot of sunscreen right because of the the supposed- hole in the ozone. That's down there is super intense. It's got to go to power to it But yeah a lot of people use sunscreen. Shame a lot of a lot of us. The wrong type of Sunscreen is a lot of natural sunscreens. That can do the job that can Get the job done without burdening buffets nasty chemicals. It's pretty ridiculous. All the toxins that they put in them so you so are are the organic. Organic sunscreens are a whole lot. Better option yeah. Yeah there's a few brands which which I'd recommend to people I mean personally on uneven this like I'm not giving you know this personal audited. Use sunscreen oh I wanted to try and maximize the amount of vapor exposure that get two words not meeting. Bottom Day supplementation in the weeds. What I've heard different things about the sunscreen issue and I'm honestly a little bit a little bit confused by I've heard some people say that you just don't need it at all. And if you get enough Sun Ben your your body adapts to that and you won't you won't be burdened by it. And I had experienced a couple of years ago I went on a vacation with my. She's my wife now but she was my girlfriend at the time we went on this. This vacation had an awesome time at the Black Sea coast. And I had heard these thing I had heard of these podcasts. Saying that Sunscreen is bad so I said Babe. I'm not gonNA wear sunscreen. Sunscreens TOXIC NOT GONNA do it and she was like okay if you want and so then we win and laid out on the beach and sure enough. I got really badly sunbird. My by legs turned totally red. And so I ended up. Let's see what what happened after that? I ended up actually using sunscreen. I think I think I used it. Maybe once or twice in the last couple of years and it did prevent me from getting sunburnt but yeah. I'm wondering what I could do in the future so that that doesn't happen without without putting all these toxins on my skin. Yeah there's actually a lot of sunscreens. The ones that I commit and the ones that I approve of the ones that are like heavily zinc oxide based I'm basing to be the best And then they've got a few other ingredients in there. That a more benign. That's I'm really have any negative effects on the endocrine system will on burdening Louisville okay. Yeah I will look into those next time extent. I'M GONNA be on the beach. Okay another thing you push it about the dark side of vitamin D E. What's up with that? Yes so that is specifically focused around people that I don't know how they decided to do this but they suck woman bottom day evening. Why we OUGHTA do not all before bed and to me that just makes absolutely mur sense and according to sign instead also doesn't make any sense because Essentially I mean let's have a think about it logically. The Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. So how does it make sense that go tell you what he to taking vitamin D? Which is basically signaling to the body arcades. It's daytime it's now. Let's let's orchestra only other homes around sunlight exposure. Let's instead take back before bed. It just really doesn't make sense to me So basically breakdown poison explain to people that they made to be taking day in the morning or at launch and obviously without says ball to improve the absorption yet that that seems a little crazy to take vitamin D in The in the in the evening. 'cause you get your naturally naturally our ancestors. They got vitamin D during the daytime when the sun was shining okay. What is your favorite new trumpet? Mushroom my favorite okay. We'll have had a lot of experience. With cody sips. I use that for literally three years. Straits probably took maybe like surgery weeks off. What else playing soccer particular cody sips? That was using that. I just stuck to for years and like I really got see. Had Amazing. Verb performance had really good luck. Like reading had very good lung capacity Ands or wonder how much of the the an anti receptor activity. The demand be inhibition in the tires. Drugs lays activity still remains to this day. I don't use it anymore because I find that. Actually that quote accepts actually winds me up a little bit should much like a Lou. It's just a little bit soon. It was like it's really jogging on a more general levels also stimulating function. So that's an thyroid function subcommittee. Careful off is I'm already bordering on bordering on earth. Allred says he wanted to increase lowered function anymore. Because I'm on stop running into the Hawker thorough symptoms which Not Really Fun. And was this Militarists are court accepts. Sydney insists. It was cody substances. And this was a longtime ago. This would have been probably around about the seek seven years ago. I was really abusing. Just just using occur accepts myron athletic performance. It was a low hard. Medicinal brand around for more a low hall owners as as an athlete. Did you ever get into psalms near? That's a great question. I did look at a lot of the research but I just decided against pretty much all of them because I wasn't impressed with Sorta BAT LIKE BANG FOR BUCK. Like it was really. I couldn't really say. Many people were forty tangible. Major major benefits and then always always so concerned about suppression. Like I didn't want to suppress my own match. Production on after the white months to return back to normal Fox took him and one of my friends. Actually spree experimented with One Arcata Rain which is uh slowly Assam. But for like August he's Cholesterol is went. Haywire they just. They whipped out a balanced. This is someone who's Vegan. Here's a sock list who hates minimal facts and then all of a sudden these markets were all over the place which is life. Yeah wasn't wasn't particularly impressed by that. So one what about you. Have you experimented? We City Psalms or no. I haven't and recently. I've been researching them and I'm a bit. I'm a bit concerned by them. I think the risk profile is just is just not really worth it in less unless you're a bodybuilder and you're really convinced that you need just a little bit of pharmacological assistance to become the next Mr Universe or become. You know the the next Terminator I. I think it said it's unacceptable. Risk Trade off. I was looking at an article for example on self hacked about Carbon Cardini and there was some evidence that it might cause cancer appar apparently was causing cancer in a concerning proportion of animals that received it in an animal study and that seems like a that. Seems like a risk reward tradeoff. That's just it's just really not not not not worth it so I've stayed away from those. Yeah Okay what do you think? I'm just jumping around a bunch of topics that I'm curious about. Because you're such a wealth of knowledge. What do you think about salt? Yeah that's a big one and actually a lot about salt from Dr James Day. Nikola Antonio he's awesome he on a book the Celtics and basically he breaks down a load of meats around salt and sorry And why Lowering. Sodium roaring salt intake can be detrimental to your health And purely because a lot of people a lot of the mainstream doctors recommend lowering salt to lower your blood pressure but and it and it will do that but at the expense of Burdening the hot the prompt Hannukah's blood Williams got less blood volume. It's sort of like it. Just doesn't make sense to to to reduce the sodium because back hundreds and hundreds of years ago we used to consume. Because we do not fridges. We never had fridges like Do today so we had to preserve a lot of al through a lot of that meets with salt and back in the Dave we have aqua of. I think it was twenty. Five grants of salts a dyke a lot which is ridiculous. It just goes to show you that. The forty has an amazing an amazing ability to handle so like to handle the salt kidneys. Amazing job at regulating it So long as it sort of balanced out with sufficient potassium but the sodium potassium ratio. That's like we could go on and on about like undestanding blood test results around that because as after Python send that very well And we can tell from people that have low sodium low sodium on a blood test which may just happens to be me. That's very indicative of adrenal fatigue. Amanda I'm not going to use a term because it doesn't exist A journal Fatigue BUP lower sodium on blood tests can indicate high cortisol markle whereas on the contrary high sodium on May in the cable hardcore saw. I was talking with some family a little while back and we were talking about salt and they were saying oh too which salts bad for you which is the. This is one of the one of the myths that I think. Bad Science has perpetrated in the past like twenty or thirty years. That if you if you have too much salt than that's problematic and I was curious about this. I was like no no I think. Think Salts probably probably good for you because I recalled there is a Bible verse actually talking about Salt where I can get with. Jesus or one of the disciples with saying you are to be the salt of the Earth. And what the Bible verse was saying was that you should be. What preserves you should be. What is a preservative of of civilization of morality etc because since time immemorial human beings have been preserving their meet it salt? And that's why we would. Consume bast amounts of it sometimes. Twenty five thirty grams a day. That's really interesting facts. I'm Mexican a Ray. Tato ext soul posts on. Instagram has soaked preserves human life. Yeah you might you might want to mention the it was called the interr- salt study. Which was this this huge study that they did. It was a a landmark. Study doing comparison of salt intake of different of different cultures around the world. And apparently what they what they did in the study was they. They compared a bunch of different western cultures and then they compared them to a number of different indigenous cultures and so it ended up being. It ended up coming to kind of a fallacious conclusion that was later revised where they where they thought this they concluded salt was causing with causing a problem because they were. They were factoring. In some some cultures that have a lifestyle and dietary intake. That was just drastically different than anything that anybody listening to US would have like. There was for example being factored in this Amazonian tribe which is called the Yamano tribe. Have you ever heard of these guys familiar? Okay people people might WanNa Google this. I'm sure there's documentaries on. The yamano tribe is basically like the spartans of the Amazon. This is a group of People. This is one of these isolated tribes. I think they actually live in like southern Venezuela and they are just a very very warlike rather barbaric tribe and they had their their salt intake was I I forget if it was the low or above the norm but the they were factoring in the Inter Salts study they were factory in these different groups of people and threw off their results from it and when they when they corrected for when they corrected for some of these for these outlier cultures they that the results indicated that yes. Salt was awesome so I would suggest people if you like salt you know. Make sure that you're using good salt. Make sure that you're using the highest Quality Pink Organic Sea salt that you can afford. Go nuts with salt. It's fine that's awesome okay. Other than other than the nutraceutical nutro picks what sort of other bio hacks do use on a daily basis while we sleep if I go to ringside a definitely a track. My sleep almost every day. Five actually just started using the. Have you ever used acupressure mat? No it's like The spots he basically lie on that before before bedtime it releases endorphins. It really helps me basically. It's just a matter that lay down beside my bed. And this is a Saddam spots and so basically what that does is just releases a bunch of endorphins and helps the body. Relax sort of how to get into that Fatal position that position as a baby. It's sort of sort of does that to me How long a on that about ten to fifteen minutes and then the fifteen minute amok tonight get you feel very very relaxed But I feel I feel tolerance to it really quick. What's the most annoying bid? Is that like it worked? Really? It made it works on the well. If it works out by these it maybe like once every four months or once every three months if I use it every not boy just gets used to it. It doesn't have the same relaxation effect. Yeah well it's a good idea to cycle these sleep packs you as with as with anything you. The body is always seeking home stasis. The body is always seeking to adapt to whatever doing to it. So if you can have a you might not need seven days worth of different sleep packs that you can rotate but if you can have maybe two or three different sleep packs and just kind of use those use those cyclically. Dan Your your sleep will improve quite a bit. Just touching on. The slight Specht actually just released. They sleep mosque. Loss weather now Which we can link somewhere in the description below are certainly people to access because it's on took me manny many many hours to put together enough. Tom Covering arranges really really cool Sleep Supplements Likely Tropics sleigh packed everything related to sleep eight among thirds on the Law South Strategies which? I feel like what audience would love to to tap into so we can link in the story nights. Sure what's the name of that bomb? It's basically it's basically it's on teachable. It's like a third party platform while heads up later on today has had optimizes slave bicycles CANTATA. Okay and what's people are of course familiar with things like avoiding the blue lights before bed? What are some of the? What are some of the counter intuitive or some of the sleep acts that people might not have heard of that. You have uncovered will one of them's obviously like body temperature. So like I think. A lot of people file to drop their body temperature enough and allowed it. What it's kept cold cold but not freezing shaking with I'm just keeping the Massachu- during your sleep because I've seen many many times with my ordering electric Martin like when I have lucky done a gym workout and Heaven Oil Shale lack of still really warm dates late scores dropped significantly whereas if I've had a coach and I made like Forbid it sounds like a culture house very stimulating release more Bought I find that. It still has a good effect on my slate by Monday. Went on called say obviously temperatures big one and then obviously trying to get sunlight as soon as you wake up like within the first HOFFA. Now when you wake up is that will signal to the to stop it just it. Just gets everything in alignment. It helps with Melatonin secretion might WanNa die while if people live in a place that doesn't get a lot of sunlight for months out of the year. Is it a pretty good strategy to get a UV therapy light and just put that ear by your bed and then kind of throw your sheets off of you and lay there under the UV light for like ten fifteen minutes do you think? Do you think that accomplishes pretty much. The same thing as going in walking around naked in a forest as soon as you get up. It's definitely let's see the privacy Yeah Yeah Okay you do something else I wanted to ask you about and I think you actually left me a comment about this somewhere on the Internet. Once upon a time was Oshawa Gonda. I think that you have some reservations about Oshawa Gonda. Yeah Yeah Yeah well. This is a very Very personal one but okay so many how. I'm sure somebody listens to about Sixty Sikhs Ganda. We'll unfortunately I have being severely affected by harassm sixty six. We're talking many many years later. Still still struggling From using this particular brand of gone what I've done is that actually collected numerous numerous case studies on other guys and other people reporting the exact same symptoms from NC seeks and those symptoms are emotional blunting and had done you stay and Just more like just emotionless. Like like more like emotionally flat lining And put together an entire Offices Hal. Astral Ganic completely it specifically revolving around the five hd one serotonin one a receptor. It's desensitizing the five. Ht One order receptor nuts. Basically mimicking the effects of Sri Drugs and more the negative effects of Esera drugs can be you know people can experience that we've Astro Ganda. Mcc's now awesome. I actually went as far as actually e mailing. Cdr of has sixty six the company and he personally personally rang me. all the way from From India and you know he was saying this is not possible also told me to take down all of okay first of all. I threatened to sue him. because basically accumulating more and more evidence from people saying they get him the same made it experience from it and what the company will do. They will sue if you try and test them for us which is ridiculous and it makes me wonder whether they've spots if products with me. The glucocorticoid will some sort of some sort of Sri because these effects assembled permanent at one other guy that spiked to not long ago on reddit saying he still hasn't been the same. Since I took five months still has not the is not getting the sample so that next how much Gondar people using producing this undesirable effect. Three hundred to six hundred milligrams standard presented dozens okay and is that exclusive to sixty six. Well that's what I'm trying to determine because I really haven't seen many other people being negative effects from other types of Gandhi but I'm saying it being reported from a lot of case M sixty six years I've changed. The Ninety from chaos seeks to Kasim six six six. Oh my gosh. That's the kind of mean that cannot take down takedown brand anyway. That's a IT'S A. It's a long topic coming. That's that's certainly that certainly troubling and I think if there's a if there's a handful if there's a at least a handful of people that are reporting really bad long-term effects from a from a particular patented supplement. I would say that people should definitely avoid that. I have however used Oshawa Gonda for quite a while. I've never used the kiss. I'm sixty six and I've found Austral gone to to be totally totally positive. I've never it helps with my sleep helps with relaxation. I think it's a bit of a sex hack but yeah I've never experienced anything like what you're describing. Please do not try to. Hasn't even think about experiment. Ksm Sixty six okay. Yeah there was a book that I've read and reviewed a little while backer was called food forensics and it was written by a guy that operates one of the top spectroscopy labs in the United States and he had done analysis of a bunch of different lunch different products. All around the world. Like like I think over a thousand and he is one of his findings or one of the things. He urged people is to be just a bit more skeptical of products that are of Indian or Chinese origin. He was saying that really consistently under very rigorous spectroscopy analysis these products end up being. Rife with toxins. So I'm wondering I'm wondering if it was actually the mechanism of Auto Gonda. That had the effect that you're describing or if it was something in their manufacturing process that's introducing a toxin or who knows. Yeah maybe they have a some sort of. Ss ARE I. That's in there. That's causing those sort of effects. Yeah this this many hypothesis which we can into. But it could even just simply bay the fact that this standardizing the federalize way way way too high and for some people those like those constituents those K- constituents may be affecting some people with a genetic polymorphism of getting affected like a few to see. I mean I've got a whole of literally to hold on my computer. I just white a seat in read it every single day just waiting to see another report and I've just that a folder on my computer Todd Kasim. Am Six weeks With a accumulated case studies. And I've got you know screen so to the mole. Slowly slowly accumulating more evidence. Maybe you'd want to put that up at some point unlike unlike steam it which is a uncensored arable an uncensored blockchain based content platform. And then if they ever tried to hit you with a lawsuit or if they sent if you if you publish that data and then they sent your hosting company like scary letters trying to get it taken down. If it's on steam at for example it'll be there on the Internet in perpetuity. Consider that so. I wanted to talk a bit more about the Keto Bark. Because this is this is would have been looking into the past week or so and it's got it's got a lot of exciting properties. I guess the caveat that I would give it back catch Wa- bark is that I don't believe to my knowledge at this point doesn't have any human clinical trials that are done on it. The is I mean. There's one study using a combination of cats wa in amongst other a deputy codes and that study was in humans that was obviously for promoting later energy. And some other things but yeah it's very it's a shame is not much racer. I'm Wayne who knows where I'll go next Tabatha career but maybe one day I'll do my by getting to research May Want to conduct studies on Yet based off steam invaded research. It seems promising but again my this is where with with stock between understanding anecdotal traditional. Sorry eighteen wisdom traditional uses versus like modern research. Like how like if something's being used so much historically when it's been used for the same sort of thing with really good really good effects if like will mean woke me. Gay Bar. Yeah I so Keto. Up a Barca's from Brazil the majority of the research on it is out of the universities in Brazil. And I suspect that what's going on is that it's it's so prolific in their culture. It's so popular there that there's maybe not maybe not properly motivated to do clinical trials on it and and spread the word throughout the rest of the world. Yeah maybe maybe. Because they're already in such a good mood. Daddy feel the need to study. Sure sure so I. I wanted to share a passage from my article that I'm going to be publishing in a little while on. Catava bark so on a bio metaphysical note if you asked a indigenous Shaman there in Brazil where the traditional knowledge about things like catalogue of our came from they would probably invoke ancient guiding metaphysical entities. And this is of course an explanation that a skeptical materialist mind would reject but the question still lingers. How did traditional medicine emerged eons ago of all the thousands of poisonous plants? Populating this planet how were our ancestors wise enough to choose to ingest the very few that tremendously empower our health and will beings was it was it? Aliens told them which plans had healing properties. Maybe there was an advanced aunt diluvian civilization which is largely forgotten by mainstream history that mastered the scientific method in deep antiquity and shared with different protocols around the world which plants could save lives. Maybe it was one of those things kind of hard to prove those sorts of things and a less provocative hypothesis that I've got is that folk medicine emerged around the world as a result of selection bias. And here's what I mean by that. There's an argument to be made. The we are evolution airily intertwined with herbal medicine as our ancestors have been using them for thousands of years maybe hundreds of thousands of years to stay alive in a brutal and dangerous world. Your ancestor was the village chieftain. Who COULD AFFORD GINSENG? So that he could get an erection to impregnate his fourth wife and have his sixteenth child. You really all of us are a result of thousands of years of Stark. Evolutionary selection bias. Favoring those who responded positively to natural medicine that's that's kind of my that's kind of my take on wearer. All these were all this amazing. Medicinal tradition arises out of and we can see that in. We can see that. In a lot of instances traditional nutraceutical. Medicine is actually a whole lot better than mainstream and certainly a whole lot better than a lot of pharmaceuticals solutions for our health. When I'm looking forward to that article Can't to check that out Greek Greek. Yeah well we will be publishing that probably on air good genetic health dot com in the next week or two. I'm thinking bachelor. We probably want to put that up right. Yeah we can definitely says it's ready to go. Okay great so I'm thinking now we can take a few collins from Cast Fox. 'cause IT looks like we've got some folks that are listening in there. I see that my friend Daniel is listening in. We've got some folks that have some names that frankly I don't know how to pronounce so if any of you are listening in and saying wow. These guys are total nerds. But they've got some some interesting little factoid. We would be happy to chat with you about everything biohacking and health related if you're listening in on the cast box APP or you're listening in on the cast box website. You should be able to see a little button that says call in. And then you can chat with being Lucas about whatever's on your mind health biohacking related. We'd love to. We'd love to hear from you if we can provide any sort of insight than that would just that would just make our day. So we'll see if we get any calls from the folks around the world and it looks like you're wearing Lucas. It looks like you're wearing those really fashionable blue blocking glasses by. Who's that Guy I forget that guy? He's he's the guy that is on a mission against beer right mission against the yeah. He's his another his another Aussie. What's his name James James something? He's a big. He's a big health health sports guru. Is it his blue blocking sunglasses using? She's talking about but now these days wants here. Actually my one of my close friends. He's actually Pay With like clip on clip on adjustable lenses so like these ones like These arms like a less orange version. The one I'm wearing now like extreme dock mode so like Rhino. Everything's read so. Do not drive for these rights is not in fact. I gotTA fond the other two months ago for wearing these loans burke read law and okay. So you've been using the aura of ring you are. I'm sure I you are. I'm sure looking at all your sleep. Data on a on a regular basis. What is what is having a an outsized impact on your sleep. Quality of all the things you use. Well the one thing that really really bumped up my data safe was actually the peptide basic one. Five seven really fifty seven. Yeah that that bumped my date safe up which really straightaway and all shots. I couldn't believe it. I remember the night that I got three hours. Thirty minutes of deep sleep which is the Marsov had probably the myself ever will have. I remember feeling sore so good. The next day felt so-so mentally switched on of stupid com super just on point. The following day I went to the phone. Does who so good. And that's one fifty seven created that affect our only five hundred micrograms. Aha Okay so you didn't do the injection early okay. So you've got the you got the BP see you've got one of those little vials this fascinating to me. Because I've done some research on BBC One seven. Haven't tried it yet. I'd love to so you got the little vial of BBC. And then you mixed it with the bacteria static water or carefully There's a company here in Melbourne. That fortunately a vaccine manufacturer in peppy. Capsule FORM ON SAWS. Lucky enough to use product And that's listed that product on my website but unfortunately the Australia wide due to legalities. Aha Okay there's A. There's an American company that I have affiliation with Infinite Age Co and they also offer a EPC oral product. And I have not tried it yet because it hasn't gone to me here in Bulgaria but I am. I am very interested in trying it. Mostly because of the because of the healing properties and it's supposed to be really fantastic for for fixing like injuries that people get in the gym. It's supposed to be fantastic. Four for people that have have backs elbows knees. That are just not totally healed from some injury that they picked up in their athletic gym. Workouts will those original reason why I took it because I had a torn meniscus media meniscus in my name on an ad literally Hubert within two weeks in. Aden haven't used it since like as being pretty much zero pain and full functionality off the using on five seven orally for about two weeks which is phenomenal yet it. What's what's amazing the BBC's how affordable it is too yeah and limited the limited Saad affects you get some people saying that reverses tolerance to and Fettah means and at a role in his other people sign that actually blunts the stimulant properties of of these drugs. Which is interesting. Yeah I would have to try them together to really speak to that but I appreciate your your comments on it. It gives me. It gives me some more support interest in using it. Well I know it's getting a little bit late there in Nobre And unfortunately the Colin function on CASS. Fox appears to be blocked at the moment. So I would suggest for those listening if you've got some questions for Lucas than I will link to him all over social media. He's he's very very active on instagram. Particularly and I think he'd love to stay in touch with you and hopefully we can do another conversation in the In the future I think as a final call to action for anyone listening in I would direct them to go and check out the product. You are launching which is brain ex. And I'm wondering if you could describe that concisely for those interested absolutely. So brainiacs is a tropic Which consists of one of the herbs that I mentioned really cats Wa wa alongside the Miramar and then combined with two other ingredients which like modern more modern really well established new trump ingredients day robberies and yearning WANNA phosphate and basically Brian X is designed to optimize dirk main. I'm Julie what mostly what WANNA documented access really strengthening motivation mood for gifts And it's very very novel compared to many of the The truck products out there. Because I I've seen people report REVERSE TOLERANCE TO THE EFFECTS ON. We've seen people you know. It's designed to be added to people's coffee or any other beverage but really worse while with caffeine because it helps to enhance the stimulating effects of caffeine and also reduce the crash from fame as well And that's boggy issue of the Dorados down within the formula but I'd roll man like the feedbacks for the Beta testers like the feedback was really really positive And I saw like proud of this woman. I just can't wait to actually get mock it because it's sort of potential And like I said it's very novel And it's it just works like really really does work a lot of people. They will say you know. They felt more energy better. Focus bed a mirror. I think the mood wants the most prominent affects that sort of very uplifting to the mood on for some me. So yeah. That's that's pretty much brainiacs Thought may these where people can find it. brain extortion. I'm totally excited about Trimbe. That myself and one thing that might I? We should explain a little bit. This is a product that's in that's in pre launch so it's kind of like a crowd funding deal that's going on with it now. It's available four. I believe twenty six Australia dollars. Twenty six eight eighty four fourteen says okay and that comes out to one about twenty five twenty four. Us dollars ought to be around eighteen seventeen. Us Okay yes. So I'd suggest people listening in. It's a very very affordable. I'm surprised that you manage to make a good nutro pick price point. Good nutro pick at that price point so I suggest that anyone listening in his curious. Go and hit up a brick. Stop me and go and buy that going by fourteen package of sachets. And you're going to have to wait a bit. It'll maybe you can tell us what the ETA is for this product. Yes Oh essentially mind. Vesta was big tomato. Hit a thousand preorder before we actually stop manufacturing. If just broken the five hundred mocks. So congratulations yeah thanks man. It's a long long long stretch so far but Yeah the more people that know better. The Morbid the help sign up The bed really is suing to expedite the whole process and stop making it an option for people to get the hands on as soon as possible on a lot of fighting for a non on desperately writing while to get into market. Yeah any we almost all of us. We have had a lifelong love affair with with coffee. It's it's been a good life that we've had with coffee and so anything that can take coffee to the next level is something that certainly piques my attention. Yeah it's phenomenal man. I think You know after maybe like awaits use of the. That's when they start to really notice that the but they've got brainiacs varinder Yom's and what will probably I will also add to the podcast notes. That people will find below wherever they're listening to this all. Add a cat Khawaga source because people might be interested in trying catch WADA. On on its own in the in the interim Before you get this product shipped out so you said that there was Keto about extract is what you've been using that's been that's been so such a good nutro. Bec- yeah. Yeah the cuts extract four to one. Okay Yeah we'll find a couple of sources in North America and hopefully Europe for that and so people can check that out through the notes below Lucas. Pleasure talking to you. I thanks for shedding the light on the KFI am six. That's that's really scary. I will join your crusade to try to put out the the warning flare on. That will thanks for having me on a non votes. Join you on our next episode sometime. If you re pleasure again it's I was look forward to continue conversation with with you in particular and everybody else thanks. Jonathan legal notices if you or someone you know developed or created a concept piece of content or ideas shared on this show. Please email us at INFO at limitless mindset dot com so we can mention them in the show notes or provide a back link. We want to give credit where credit is due as a listener to the limitless mindset. Podcast we hope you have and practice common sense. However since some of the content covered in this show deals with subjects of a health legal or business nature. This show is for entertainment purposes. If you need recommendations of doctors nutritionist or attorneys to console before making decisions that may have health or legal repercussions. Please email us at INFO at limitless mindset dot com.

Metformin Instagram Salt testosterone cortisol Lucas Arrigo Brazil Wa metformin myron soccer US Jonathan Gruber Europe Diabetes foreman nutro nutro Jd
BPR Full Show 1/27/21: Sisyphean

Boston Public Radio Podcast

2:45:15 hr | 3 months ago

BPR Full Show 1/27/21: Sisyphean

"Support for boston. Public radio comes from. Pnc pnc bank has made a home in the heart of greater boston. Investing in our businesses communities and people that focus on giving back as part of an ongoing commitment to the communities pnc serves pnc bank national association member fdic. adam. Boston public radio. When governor baker announced that people aged sixty five and older i vaccine priority list admit. The teachers in many other essential workers would be pushed down. Beggars decision comes even push for schools in turn improvise learning. And is the cdc says there's low prevalence of spreading schools poll revel former education. Secretary will join disgust. Then we'll open the lines to hear from you isn't biden. Wants to expand the amount of money families would get a tax credit for having children and senior. Democrats have signaled they support. They drafted legislation that would send recurring monthly payments to tens of millions of american families permanently. Mit economist john. Gruber will join us in. A few minutes discuss the plan. That's ahead on boston. Public radio And you're listening to boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h good margin either marjorie. How're you excellent. Could we start with a little public service thing if i canada face to for vaccine starts on monday. The governor just announced february first with people seventy five years old or over becoming eligible. So if you are seventy five or older or have a family member or friend who is over seventy five or older. They can sign up starting today today for monday. It's mass dot gov slash covid nineteen vaccine mask dot gov slash cova nineteen vaccine. The website will directly to a map showing all the vaccination locations across the state from there. You clicked through fine. There's availability and then you make an appointment and a little bit later in the show. I'll tell you when you make that appointment and go what it is that you may have to bring with you to present proof of eligibility again so seventy five years or older if you know someone who is They can start signing up today for february first and beyond mass dot gov slash covid nineteen vaccine on a sort of related note. Cdc is making the case for reopening schools and after reviewing latest data. Scientists have found little evidence. Schools have significantly contributed to kind of spread of the coronavirus that we've seen in congregate living situations and high density workplaces and while this is reassuring news too. Many researchers are emphasizing that the success in preventing transmission was achieved in these schools that closely adhere to safety precautions. Like wearing masks physical distancing etcetera. So could this be the beginning of the end of remote learning or are there. Too many competing concerns among teachers. Not the least of which is not enough of them who are healthy and parents and school administrators to fully reopen joining us online. We'll get your thoughts on this little. While by the way journalists the line talking about this and all the other ways corona viruses straining our education infrastructure as paul revel pulls the former state secretary of education professor at harvard university's graduate school of education where he also runs the education redesign lab his latest book co author with lane weiss's broader bowler better. How schools and communities helps students the disadvantages of poverty. Hello there paul revel snowy. Hello jim and marjorie man to it is. It hasn't got dirty and it's really pretty out with with a new snowfall. Paul revel We're all supposed to be now in the In the new. We're back to following the scientist and the science and science seems to be saying that uh schools are as jim said little evidence of of transmission Meanwhile the damage to kids is enormous. So is it time to open back up again. Well i mean. I think the i think we may be. I'm jim news praised beginning of the end and and that may be a little dramatic. But i think we're certainly in the early stages of a movement that see increasing in person education certainly with the advent of the vaccine That's gonna put people at ease and deal with some of the consequences that we've seen associated with They bought a lot of the talk that we have about going back to. School has to do with the health circumstances and transmissibility and things of this nature. One of the things that's arisen as so many families have been beleaguered by this people. Ill in the family people. Ill themselves people take care of your relatives or their children home. That the many of these districts are experiencing shortages of teachers. So even if you can get the circumstances right It can be a problem. But i do. Think that You know i. It's actually interesting that the outgoing administration the trump administration was pushing very hard on opening. It appears that the incoming administration may be one of the few things they agree on. It's going to push hard on reopening schools in the new Us secretary of education seems to have done that when he was commissioner in connecticut so i think the momentum is moving in that way and that momentum only being answered by the increasing availability of the vaccine as we move along here and more and more evidence. That if you do things right if you do this social distancing if you do the math if you do spacing if you're attendant to your air and if the community rates surrounding the school are You know attended to and And reasonably Medium to low then. Schools generally have a less than average transmissibility factor. You know the the stories about the teacher shortage in. Correct me if i'm wrong. Paul are not based in massachusetts. So much there other places. So what about here or should we just wait till the vaccination i mean i think the teachers apparently they're happy about it. Some of the many way the union members. Let's get your first question. I is there a shortage chair polars this elsewhere in the country i know periodically. I hear anecdotally of some districts that are having difficulty coverage particularly. You know those who are trying to juggle in person simultaneously. I mean teachers strange and the number of teachers are real. They have family members ill or they have kids at home and I think since there hasn't been as much push here is in other places for in person. that We haven't had the kind of acute shortages that some of the states have felt when they've really made a big push to get everybody back in person one last thing about shortages And then we'll get to martyrs question about the teachers. Unions gone crazy yesterday when they got bumped down the priority list because sixty five year olds were bumped up the priority list staff shortages. I know Existed prior to the pandemic. correct me. If i'm wrong they obviously were exacerbated. Because of the pandemic is education and other industry where a lot of people because of the nightmare last nine months are leaving the jobs and once we get out of this when we like to think things will be better that we're gonna find out this. There's an acute shortage even worse than projected because people just decided they couldn't take it anymore or is that not happening in the education world. No i think we're gonna see a drop-off you've already seen in media terms. For example one of the great sources of substitutes for district is retired teachers know as a result of the pandemic in the you know the high vulnerability rate of older folks You know a lot of those people have just opted out altogether. So they're not in the world of substitutes in education generally particularly in in specialized areas bilingual teachers special education teachers science teachers rural areas. Yeah we've had shortages all along and we've had a massive set of retirements due to the baby boom generation coming for retirement age and You know as we're seeing families drop away from public education. I mean one of the interesting phenomenon that's going on now is We're seeing in enrollment drop in public education. Generally as people move away and get used to it and decide. I'm gonna do keep home schooling or do some education pod or private schooling indefinitely. So i i do think we're gonna see the same thing and in teaching. Some people have just decided. This is too much even though before we go ahead. We discussed this with you margarine. I talked about it off the air. I think there was a great story in the new york times the other day about how pods for the wealthy. We're seeing this salvation and now it's like warfare. If the pod is center to your house you make the rules and other people don't like it. They can get the hell out of the pie. It's really i'm sorry martin nez corden. Jim is because you know how you're always fighting about his allegiance the teachers union because he wanted the presence award for the massachusetts up with ever. Since i was not outrageous they were i did not say i was mad though because they were upset about being moved roles i was. I was couldn't believe that the head of the mta that you're Jim said. She was outraged that that she found out about this. Change at a press conference at the same time as everybody else with no advance notice. Why thought well gee welcome to the club. Welcome cloud exactly. We all found out the same commerce which seems to me totally appropriate place to find out but even though the behind the sixty five year olds which makes sense. Because i think a lot of teachers are retired before sixty five. So they're not in the highest risk group that they're behind the sixty five year olds but there are plenty of teachers over sixty five teaching. But they'll get it sixty no but they'll get it because there's so they don't suffer but i'm not sure i agree with marjory. I'm not sure disagrees. Quantum sorry this one this one the whole notion about them being dropped down your no. No no you're not upset that they were dropped that she did get eventually. The goal is to open schools and the goal is to build confidence in the two doctors teachers teachers and other personnel in the schools. That they'll be safe. I know everybody can't have a priority. But they do a point. Don't they or do they pull revel margaritas and things so they haven't they have an interest. I mean we all have an interest. I mean As you say most officer in the dark and frustrated i must get you know half a dozen friends a day writing about. Where can we get a vaccine back in so and so forth and you know. I don't know what it's so. What are teachers unions. Teachers unions are organisations of adults in the teaching profession. Who band together to represent strongly their own interest. And and that's what they're doing here and you know they want the maximum possible safety provisions to protect their members. And so that's what they're standing up where it doesn't mean they're right that they should be before everybody but it's it's expectable and predictable that they're going to stand up and say you know you're you're asking us to go on the front lines and be exposed to people therefore you should protect us. Grocery workers could say the same thing. Postal workers could work in pharmacy. Everybody feels that way. They happen to be well organized to do it. And they have some all But i just think it's you know they're just lots of trade offs here and everybody's calculating the risk factors. We've got a lot of pretty good evidence that you can do it right in schools and the risk factors are lower than they are in the general community so i don't think there's a compelling argument that they ought to be rushed to the very top of the line with healthcare workers who have direct contact but there is a case to be made opening schools. It's really important for society. And if we're gonna ask people to go in on the front lines they ought to be high up on the list and disagree over whether they i think he can't do a car either way following. The scientists are not finally science. Can't say we're going to follow the science and every case it's tougher schools especially when the damaging. This is such a big deal but having said way breaks feel. Can you feel through the phone. Poll the jealousy that marjorie continues the field. Because i won the president's award and she i mean it's so boring rodri- it really is going to win any awards for teachers. You okay i. I'm aware of that right now. I disagree with a lot of what they've done to the full wonder comments marjorie hadn't brought up the award a long island mark for a good eight minutes. She didn't bring up but given that there. Is this this complaining front. The unions of concern. Why not just if they are gonna get vaccinated now. I think it's february right there at the third part of the there after the sixty five year old why not just wait till the middle of march or the or the end of march. You know we've lost so much. What's another month and a half at this point mean to open schools about the i mean. Different systems are proceeding different rates. It's not like everybody's open on. i'm in boston. It's gonna make a big push on monday But but other places you know we're we're we're running ratios of massachusetts. Roughly like the national average is where you've got you know maybe a fifty percent or so schools running hybrid at the. I know the national figures better than the the local ones twenty five percent or online altogether fifty percent or hybrid nationally and less than twenty five percents in person fully And so the you know. The staffing requirements are different in these situations. And you know. I guess what i'm in favor. I think it's time to move back with children. Who are most disadvantaged and indy youngest age groups whaling transmissibility as low and The the rate the vulnerability is low and the symptoms tend to be more mild. And i think that's that's where we ought to help our priority. And then you know we all ought to be talking about moving this vaccination program ahead as quickly as possible and why in massachusetts were not as on top of that is we Some other states are right now. We're in thirty second place. Tim is that where we are. Three second-place believe the washington post is so so paul revel One of the reasons that people are so concerned about the schools being closed that you know that that the kids that are from poor families disadvantage families of course are suffering the most big piece in the globe about digital divide where kids don't have internet service or you know. The internet service is expensive even though they do get these vouchers which is great To help pay for the internet service. But it's still a real problem with the has the have nots contact using it or two different things. Yeah yeah that's a very good point You know what is going to happen. Basically these kids have missed. I know that there's some places that have done well with with remote learning but it certainly spotty the gonna miss a whole year school. It's just well. I mean i think this is a great question to ask Any education leaders and in public policy leaders mayors and governors and so forth at this point is what are we going to do about learning loss. I mean i. I think that's the number one question for our new. Us secretary of education. You know we're at up to me. I'd put a tremendous priority on You know expanding out of school learning expanding opportunities that are available on weekends and on vacations making an all out effort next summer to make sure every kid. Has you know high quality opportunities for intensive learning moving in the direction of developing individualized plans for each child so that we take account of the widespread differences. I mean some kids are doing well. i mean. They're keeping pace because they've had all kinds of support at home from their families to keep up with where they should be at grade level whereas others Have struggled just to get connected or have any time whatsoever with teachers let alone to delve into the curriculum and There was a good piece the other day about in the globe about how Children who are having difficulty learning to read in any event that degree of difficulty has been exacerbated now so kids are in widely different places. They always were but the difference is even greater so we're going to have to individualize and have more of a case management approach way. We would in medicine rather than a batch processing factory model approach the way we do in education so this i think is a number one priority for education leaders. Right now is to come up with strategies for what we're gonna do now. Naturally they're preoccupied with reopening. How do we restore some manner of normalcy but Once you get to a threshold on that then you've got to look to the future and say boy we've got a big hole to dig out of and what's going to be strategy for getting. There are two things from base when you said out of expand out of school Learning those your first thing on your list of recommendations. What does that mean. What does that mean. Well for example. What boston after school and beyond does the city of boston is providing opportunities high quality recreation and learning opportunities everything from You know A tennis camp for kids who ordinarily wouldn't have access to that too you know intensive science learning at Mit you know through programs that get set up over there in engineering things. So then i got all kinds of you. Know enriched summer or after school activity that exposes young people to some of the great assets that are in our community using the whole community as burning place and using a variety of people who are experts on all kinds of things as teachers to expand and broaden the horizons opportunities that are available kids doing also having provision for remediation in other words. You using some of these tools of online learning to say okay. If you're a child who's fallen a year or two behind grade level in terms of reading. We're going to provide you with some tutoring to help. Get you up to speed to help you overcome the deficit. That you've accumulated over this past year and You know to so to individualize it's easy to say you know to we ought to be personalizing customizing education. But it requires a different form of organization. You know to meet children where they are and give them. What can i just say swallowed along. You swallowed a line in the middle there. That i thought was a really important one when you said and you say to us all the time and i think it's sort of like water over ducks. Whatever it is kind of thing you know customize education individual plans and. I worry that everybody says well. That's just not possible but you in the middle of that that sentence there said just like we do when you go to the doctor. I mean every there. There's always an expectation that every young kid when he or she goes to the doctor is going to be treated obviously based upon where they are when they go to the doctor. Why should we have any expectation that is different when it comes educated same. I love that analogy. By the way i think it really makes the point. You've made relentlessly terribly well. We're talking to paul you. God what gets in the way. That rationale jim myth is also a daycare system. So there's attended one. Treat everybody the same same our same place. Same approach and that mitigates against what we all know. Which is you know. we wouldn't open a hospital and give everybody who walks through the front door the same treatment and the same length of stay irrespective of what they're presenting problem. Was we differentiated. And we've got to start doing in the world of education one last thing Bosses exam schools. Have these camera mandates now. Apparently they just started at last month. The lead teachers lower kids grades. If they don't keep their laptop cameras on you know. I totally get why some of these kids don't want to have their laptop cameras on because either there's a three ring circus back at the house of people running around the house is master something you don't wanna be kinda judged by all your peers for what things it sounds like invading your privacy in a way. I you know i get it goes. It's very challenging. I think there there legitimate privacy inequity concerns. This does rollout differently. I was speaking to a group of teachers the other day. And i said you know it may be hard for those of us in sort of middle class professional class to imagine being embarrassed about showing the background of where we are years but this is the experience that a lot of young people are having now having said that my wife does remote teaching with with kids in the boston public school with a program that she runs out a pervert medical school and it's very difficult to interact with kids. It's hard enough to be remote as a teacher but to be to be teaching when you're only facing blank screens have no idea whether somebody's behind it or not. And you can't engage them. You can't see their facial expressions you can't see it raised and you can't see That what they're you know they're they're talking. You can't see How they're feeling about what they're saying it's over. It's very very difficult for teachers. So i think we've got to find some middle ground and you know. I like the arrangements at some schools have made where where youngsters families can ask for waivers. summer experimenting with virtual backgrounds. You know and but need a certain technical capacity to put in virtual background. You can mute. Your microphone is not a problem with that. I mean. I think we've got to be a little bit more creative of getting around this but i i sympathize with teachers who are looking at blank screens. It's very very hard to teach that way on the other hand that they the kids and the families have legitimate privacy concerns. But i just think with a little immagination we can do better if we get on top of the technology and this is one of the things that gotta get on top of paul talked to you. Okay tartu you guys. I'll take care and accent. You will talk joins us regularly. He's the former state secretary of education professor at harvard. University's graduate school of education way also runs the education redesigned lab his latest book which addresses lhasa. Ballistic talks to us. Spiral ton co-authored with elaine wise is broader folder better how schools and communities help students overcome the disadvantages of poverty. Poor open allies asking you at the. Cdc's latest is that the transmission of the virus very low schools. Are you ready for schools to be openness maximum. Seventy boston driver welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and marjorie tuning in. We were talking to paul rebel. About the cdc concluding. It is safe to reopen schools. As long as they adhere to safety measures. Were opening lines asking. Are you ready to be done with remote learning or with new variants of the krona virus. And making it more contagious. The bumpy vaccine. Roll out here. you think. It's still premature to go back to. In person. learning teachers parents students give us about eight seven. Seven three zero one eighty nine seventy the discussion. Here i should say to be fairly brief We're gonna spend a ton of time on this very same question between twelve fifty and probably one thirty so give us a buzz now and if you don't get through now you'll get a second chance. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy you of the most is that is the thing i know. Everybody is regardless of what the decision is about. This is the whole learning loss issue. That paul was talking about a couple of minutes ago. Obviously it's epic. Obviously it's more intense for those who could least afford An additional and most insignificant for those who are doing pretty well anyway. It's a nightmare. And i wish i had an answer but i sure as hell do not. Okay let's Let's go buddy. Michael from the city council never michael. Hi michael how are you. What are you doing over there out the great. What are you doing tonight. I have cell frustrated over the vaccine robotic guys last week we should. He play teaches higher on the list. Knock lower on the list where we can offer until they're back into classrooms until teachers vaccinated so that they can go home to their families at the end of the school day I can't believe he came out and lowered the standards for teachers vaccinated. They should be right below. First responders We need to get back into school but we need to do it safely in can't do it till we do it safely very quickly before you go away. Is that your position or is. I know you're on the city council but is there one is ever. It is a whole holding back on in person learning till Teachers are other vaccinated. What's the deal. So there has that a lot of discussion whether or not we go to hybrid. And i have been pushing strongly for vaccination program to be rolled out and we have we are holding. We are holding back until Vaccinations are in place. But we need to get misplaced now. We know that the states. Let's get them. Minister ministry is possible. Michael thank you for the call by the way at the top of the show. I gave you the information on how to help a seventy five year old or all over or yourself if you're seventy five or older register and as soon as i did that i was alerted about globe story that says starting at midnight The rollout first phase two and seventy five year olds has been an utter and complete disaster. So all we can do the information and wish you luck speaking of another incomplete complete disaster. I just got an email from a teacher in the south shore. Who's our lunch break. And she said she's flabbergasted by the school districts going back fully in person locally the she says she's she says the former new yorker all my teacher friends in new york have already been vaccinated. They've all posted vaccine southeast so much so much from mass being number one in the nation. So ron and bill ricca. You're next on boston public radio we're talking about whether return to in person learning high run. Hey good morning guys. Y'all you you well i just wanna say under a real president again but The fuck about education. Your guests that the white can we give students the same individual attention that they get when they go to a doctor well spray paying the teachers as much as we pay the doctors. Dan will affect that teachers to make a lot more money. Otherwise it's just not possible and regarding back the nation. I think they're governor's doing a great job. There are some hiccups along the way as everybody smashing. But i i like baker. I think is tremendous job. By ron. If i may. I'm not quarreling with your overall assessment of governor baker. I think he's got a lot of things to recommend them. What about the rollout. do you think he's handled. Well were in the bottom half of the states. We're below every new england state and this beginning of phase two for seventy five year olds and older read the globe story online. It is an unmitigated disaster. I got a the job. You're really opening my issue. I was thinking that the governor was great job. Maybe his to inform myself a little bit more. Okay by the way. I everybody's entitled to their opinion. I'm just saying the rollout. We are not keeping up with our neighbors. Ron thank you very much for the call. Eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seven. I hate to sound overly dramatic. My heart breaks. When i read this story about the kids of eighty year old or nine year old parent or whatever was in the globe story that i read who are in some other state and twelve. O one. They go online. The globe reporter followed up on that. Every single location was full a number of minutes. Some of the parts of the website were still in phase one rather than beginning phase. Two which begins on on monday again. I'm not questioning by his intention or anything. I know everybody from governor. Baker on down wanted to work. But it's it's horrible. I mean it's just it's horrible. It's horrible and we. Fourth wealthiest nation estate in the country deserved better than thirty second and vaccine options Let's go to dick and chelsea high dick. Thanks for calling her. I thanks so much calling about You know i'm an avid listener. Cetera but I'm calling about The vaccine eighty three live in chelsea. And is i two things. There is no place in chelsea to get vaccine this chelsea second. I've been on the map since about nine. Am i have not been able to make an appointment. Any of the listed sites for example walgreens and cvs referred me to their big website. Nothing available Stop and shop somewhere. Maybe it's a land. The website doesn't work You know there's a place in salem you know can't get to them but on the other hand it's only they're only doing Vaccines stay one You know there's something in arlington which says you know everybody in the state. It's a family practice but Their website takes you to some other website which you know that they subscribe to which gives you nothing and you know. I just got a little tip. I just got a little tip from someone. Says the doubletree hotel in danvers seems to be. We're not by the way we are not Saying that's accurate. We're saying so just someone so how do you feel. How frustrated are you Let's see eleven. i'm not so at least you have a sense of humor. Dick can i say you're eighty three and you're on the internet during the break. A someone called our control room where our colleagues are and said it was elderly colour He's not on the internet. He asked for a phone number. The state's website does not list the phone number of course if they're not on the website they don't they can't get the founder but recommends quote calling your local council on aging meaning. Not giving a hell of a lot of help to get there. So what are you going to do next. Dick from chelsea. Oh we'll just just parenthetically yes you know. I'm i'm probably more computer savvy than most eighty three year old this is. It's it's ridiculous and dangerous. What i'm going to do next is i'm going to contact my State representative My and my state senator and Ianna presley and the governor's office favor. Dick you our email is w. g. b. h. Org it's often hard to get through on the phone. We would love stay in touch with and his subject line mentioned dick from the phone. Call on whatever day this is. This is wednesday wednesday. We'd love to hear your progress because you sound like you're pretty relentless guy. Thank you for the call. You kind of tell you something i again. I don't know where the problem is. I don't know if they can do it any better i. I hate to be critical. When i know people are doing their best to try to make things work. But if you're not dick who is computer savvy. If you are scared as i assume a lot of older people are about what covert might mean for you. You're told you can get a shot next monday that you can go online earlier today. And if you're lucky enough to have a kid or a neighbor or you yourself like dick go online and see total frustration across the board. How how incredibly dispiriting and depressing and horrible is that. It's just it's horrible especially especially when you're in one of those categories it's high risk in your life is is being very truncated in a high risk. By definition of. You're seventy five years. Roll exactly your high risk just by eighty year old. Dick is eighty three. He's he's a high risk guy. So i get complaints with completely wise upset. We apologize. We only have a short time to talk about this now. But we're going to take all your calls. We can get to about twelve fifty five or so this afternoon. We'll talk for a half hour about how you feel about the schools coming back so if you can get out and get your emails. Try and later Because coming up right now we're going to talk to Paul rebel borough is taught him. John gruber No family left behind. President biden is proposing to expand the child tax credit. What does that mean. It helped to end child poverty and economist. Jonathan gruber joins us for that and more. John gruber is next eight nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Boston public radio. Jim brady and marjorie still can't get over the dick from chelsea call as part of a larger covid relief package. President biden is proposing to help lower income families expanding the child tax credit. If the package passes in congress it would temporarily increase the maximum child tax credit from two thousand and three thousand a year for each kid under seventeen aged seventeen and under and up to thirty six hundred for kids under six. His plan would've make the credit fully refundable for year. And since you have no idea what refundable means our guests will explain it in a minute. Join us through the details and why being fully refundable is such a big deal and if it's politically viable as mit economist. john gruber. Jonathan gruber is the ford professor of economics at mit instrumental in creating both the massachusetts health reform and the formal care act. His latest book is jump. starting america. how breakthrough. Science can revive economic growth in the american dream. John gruber talked. I'm really glad you picked this topic to talk about. It's great thanks for joining us. You bet that could be here is always particularly glad. You chose to talk about it john. Because i don't think very many of us know much if anything about it so jim. Jim explained a little bit Maximum child test from two thousand and three thousand for each kid under seventeen etc but elaborate. Please what exactly are we talking about here. Sure so finds. Endorse something that was called. The american family act proposed by democrats in the senate last year took twenty nineteen. Basically with this. It'd be it'd be a monthly check to fans with kids. Get two hundred and fifty dollars per month for each kid. Age six to sixteen. So that's three thousand dollars a year. They get three hundred dollars per month or three point. Six thousand dollars a year for two zero two five if distributed every month that wouldn't be a tax credit like we get now. We only get it when you pay your taxes. You get it every month in advance and it would phase out for higher income so for single parents above one hundred thirty thousand dollars. In income it would begin to phase out and for married couples above married parents. About one hundred thousand it starts to phase out most importantly it would be fully refundable slits talk about the refundable debate walkie but critical thinking about how we help low income families in america. You know there's two ways to help low income families one is you can send the money there others. You can give them credit. So i'll sit their taxes. The problem is many. Americans don't owe income taxes on that as a mitt romney. Famous pointed out about half of americans don't owe income taxes as a result. If you wanna try to redistrict money to them through the tax system you basically have to give them a refund. You basically give the money back through the tax system now. the should be totally uncontroversial. It's just a way of giving people money but for some reason well not for some reason conservatives have latched onto the idea that a refund is not It should not be allowed. That ios a quote the textbook. It's not a credit. It's someone else's money the ideas that somehow this arbitrary cutoff zero that if we give you credit that lowers your tax from five hundred to one dollar. That's totally fine but if it lowers your by ability for one dollar to minus four ninety somehow that's horrible welfare and that's just wrong In particular it's wrong because remember while the half americans don't pay income taxes we all pay payroll taxes. So it's not like these americans these free. Riders mitt romney talked about is not. They don't pay taxes. They pay quite big taxes. They just don't pay income taxes so it's really crazy to think somehow because it results in tax refund we shouldn't allow it yet for many tax credits including existing child tax credit. We don't allow full responsibility. We allow people to fully benefit from this from this loss. I have a bunch of questions. I'm sure mudgee as to why monthly What's the rationale. Share is basically the family states. urgent bills. They have to pay a monthly basis. And if we don't give them the money till the end of the year they won't be able to pay their bills especially right now. I think that's a very important consideration number two a lot of other western nations do this from what i understand and they do it only because it's sports low and moderate income families with kids but also chips away at the poverty rate. Big time right. Yeah so To one is Ten other major developed nations have cia credits ranging from about fifteen hundred dollars a year in the netherlands to almost five thousand dollars in luxembourg on canada. Indeed recently moved to a very large sixty seven hundred dollar credit per child under six and fifty seven hundred dollars for children six to seventeen th so being good international company and this would have enormous effects. If you put the shot credit in and you made it fully refundable you would cut child poverty america by about a third. We call deep poverty. Which is those living at about half the poverty line or for example families living on less than twelve thousand dollars a year. We cut that in half but only if it's fully refundable even make it refundable. You don't really help the poorest people at sorta crazy if you if you do put this in and don't make it refundable then you basically don't help the people who need it most and that's why you know. This is just a a wonky but critical debate about the proper role of using taxes to help those. The bottom of the income distribution you mentioned a lot of conservatives opposed. This reminds me of the great barney. Frank former congressman. Frank line life to a lot of these conservatives life begins at conception and ends at birth and it really do that nail. What the thing is. What's the argument against this. From those who oppose it in congress all of a sudden it becomes deficit. hawks or what is it. yeah. I mean i. it's it's really. I would say it's twofold it first of all it's it's just the only reason oppose. It is just deficit concerns now ultimately discussed on the show ultimately we do have to limit our spending somehow in america. We have everything to everyone and so we should always consider whether we're targeting our money appropriately. So i think there's a legitimate concern that that i've raised that this may be goes to high income distribution and originally The child cry original. Proposals had going up. Only up to seventy five thousand dollars So i think there's legitimate concerns about work owes and income distribution. But i think the reason. The deficit hawks are wrong. Here is because we've discussed before in the zero interest rate environment. We're in now. Any government spending which has positive long run benefits should be done because essentially we're going to get the money back in the long run the interest. Let's do it. Investing in children has been shown to be incredibly productive not just for our well beings nation but actually for the fiscal well being of the us government so fascinating study done by former student of mine. medical off yet michigan where she looked at the long run effect expanding medicaid to children. So we in the eighties and nineties. We made a whole bunch of children. Newly eligible for medicaid. She then got tax data to follow up on those kids twenty years later and found they were earning so much more and paying so much more in taxes that the make expansions paid for themselves so it wasn't just improving their health a productive investment. We lag the world in investing in our children. In your body. Frank quote is exactly right. You know we don't to get an abortion politics here but we can absolutely no that we lag the world in supporting the development of our children educationally in nutritionally and general income support this would be an enormously productive step towards remedying that we're talking with the mit economist. Jonathan gruber you know. Maybe we don't know this yet but one of the things. I was worried about when i heard this was cost of daycare and preschool care is enormous and i wondered if this would cause even this amount of money wouldn't cover these really expensive chalk here Places so i'm wondering how that would impact if at all money to reduce the cost of childcare. Yeah that's a great question marjorie so basically You can think you know when when jim says why wouldn't people like this. The other thing to think is contrast this well g we could give think about two policies. I'm gonna make the numbers up but basically imagine he's things cost the same one as we do what i laid out the other said we give more money instead of three thousand. Say it's five thousand but we only give it for kids who are in childcare right so we could give a lot more money if we talked to kids in childcare because first of all i wouldn't give it two older kids and second of all not all young kids are in childcare so a counterargument would be based on what you said marjorie. Which is why give everyone some money. Which kids like you know. Kids who are fifteen. Just be extra money for parents but for kids who are little They still couldn't afford childcare. Why not instead. Give it as a subsidized childcare. The counter argument to that is that if you subsidize childcare as a single activity if you suddenly said everyone american now gets a few thousand dollars more for childcare. The prices of child childcare would rise and in fact some evidence on that that basically if if if you simply say we're gonna make money for childcare. Then it's just like saying we're giving them money for apple's. The price of apples will rise to concerns the price of chocolate with rice. I think a compromise that i would consider marjorie. They hadn't really thought to your question. Maybe we should really giving a lot more money for the little kids and not as much of the older kids I talked about. Maybe targeting more by income but i think what you're pointing out marches is maybe targeting it more by age not by was in childcare not every parent of a little kid gets it because basically there's lots of childcare arrangements we don't nestle save or one over another. The idea would be. Maybe we should really tilt this more to focus on smaller kids. I think it'd be really good idea the other The contrary argument. I remember we were talking to your last week the week before. Whatever about how you thought that investment federal investment in those who are unemployed made a lot more sense than the sort of across the board stimulus check thing than economic matter. And i'm but. I'm assuming the reason why because there are a lot of smart economists who worked for some of these piles that they went for that. Is this politically a lot. More embraceable if it hits broader number of people. When i mentioned barney frank before maurice heard this before born franken ted kennedy when i was legal services alert with lead champions barney's of Congressman frank was a freshman then And trying to keep legal services for the poor live in one of the ideas that came up from people who are really smart. Even though agreed with you economically is maybe we should raise the income level at which people are still eligible for free legal services. So there's more support for the program so we're going with. This isn't possible that we should make this refundable credit available to more people including higher. I don't mean high income people higher income than the threshold now so that there was much more pressure on those who don't support it to support it because many more their constituents are going to benefit from it. I mean yeah i mean i mean look this is not a regional Franken kennedy's kaiser wilhelm any forty eight when he set up the first real social insurance state in germany set up on the principle of university of -ality and the reason he did that was in the same reason. Fdr made so thirty five. Was the idea that if you make it you. Bill brought her support. And there's really just a trade off and once again if if we could just print money and flee there wouldn't be a tradeoff but we can't put money on leslie and we do a priorities to worry about. And there is a trade off and so it's really a trade off of making a broad enough that you build support but targeted enough that it really does. What's good so if if biden has a number in mind the more dead comes to marjorie point the more they raise the number of people get it the less per person and that means that people are struggling. Doctor bills won't have enough to pay them. So i think in one way to square that circle is a couple of things eight to focus on children to replace the general notion of a check to one focused on children. So you can make it already bigger take instead of you know i would say take more that fourteen hundred and put it more focused on kids be focusing more and little kids but still give money for older kids just just more wide gap. So then there's enough money to afford childcare for the little kids so so he's learned in the weeks since biden's become the president that the opposition to the gop is full of claims of return. He's turning us into a socialist nation. That of course will be the rallying cry around this right. The socialism has taken over. There's a terrific. I'm sorry marjorie. But there's a terrific article in today's new york times by thomas. Friedman men called socialism for the rich capitalism. For everyone else. Yeah and basically you know look it once again comes to term socialism which actually was incredibly effective for republicans in the twenty twenty campaign a lot of how they turned hispanic voters against the democrats again. The word about socialism. You know socialism. Basically we're talking about is not social progressive. Capitalism progressive capitalism is saying. Look we system where everyone could be included and we make productive investments to have a fundamentally more fair and productive society. it's not controlling the means of production And this idea that you know it's sort of comes. This old republican canard. Which is in taxation is theft. Well no taxation is the way you raise the money. You need to do things. And you know i i if i if i'm often told by. You know republicans like well if you want to raise our taxes once you just give more money voluntarily to the government and i to which i respond well if you wanna lower taxes. Why don't you give back your social security check. And basically you know. We need to recognize that We have to have a progressive capitalism system. We're gonna really survive going forward. John one listing. You mentioned what it would do to the poverty rate in the united states deep poverty. And something else you mentioned minute ago. You also mentioned the ten other developed nations western nations. Whatever you said. They're already doing some variation on this. What's the consequence of that investment been. Would they each deem it a success. there has been. There is a huge economics literature Which has really been very influential. In essentially looking at the effect of early life interventions on later life outcomes looking at things like families that got the earned income tax credit which is a which is fully refundable which is a credit given a low income families child. Tax credits medicaid food stamps and uniformly. These studies find very strong. Long run benefits in terms of child. Health of your students child income. Basically these are productive investments and essentially and once again you know in some sense whoa. Let's let's go back to the conservative position. You often think of. The conservative position is look. Let's equalize opportunities not outcomes. Let's not worry about taking for the rich and giving the poor. Let's just make sure everyone is the same opportunity and let the dice roll. Well if you if that's your view. You should be forgiven monday to kids because basically we want to start off with the same opportunity and then if your view is later on you know if they get rich you get to keep it well. I can debate that. But i don't think we should really debate the fact that we need to put the money into making sure everyone gets an equal start. Well the other argument margin used to writing in your column all the time doing it for the children. As the refuge very political scoundrel used to write something like that for the children exactly so let him do it for the damn children here you know. Yeah exactly exactly and you know you. We haven't really made any advances significantly. Says my kids were little my oldest kids thirty five so we really haven't done much And so we have but what we've done marjorie is we've learned. We've developed a body of evidence that these are productive investments that this is money that is wealth than in terms of the long run strength of our economy. We go sir. Biden's bill back better agenda that basically right. I realize it's part of its covid relief package but ultimately we need to get back to a nation that is where a rising tide lifts. All boats were basically. We're making a productive investments in our society that allow us to compete internationally. Or we're just going to keep going down with the rest of the world. John that was great. I really appreciate that was very helpful and learned a lot and thanks for your time. We appreciate it. My pleasure have always have to be here. Thank you john Jonathan gruber joins us regularly. He's the four professor of economics. Mit he was instrumental in creating both massachusetts healthcare reform for care. Act his latest book. Jumpstarting america how breakthrough science can revive economic growth. New american dream by the way before you go ahead One of our colleagues just showed nbc. Then boston reporter. Abby ms goad. I think just tweeted the other day. She asked the governor about the website. And the governor responded. How much more streamline would you like it to be in that. And i think the answer came at midnight last night with the attempt to register. 75-year-olds mike just getting emails back from people saying they're not having much luck at the doubletree. Danvers website okay. So much for that dick from chelsea it wasn't from chelsea was from dick from chelsea's who gave the advice. They're doing your somebody's talking to the audience. I think okay. Who's coming up coming up. His jewish cayenne security expert. Talking about the rise of right wing extremism next on n. gbh boston public radio. I am margery eagan. Is jim brown. This is our number two logan. Jim logan maury how you. I'm excellent so good. So females in the practice of responding to natural disasters under the biden administration. It's acting pre-emptively freeing a billions of dollars potentially to prevent climate change disasters to begin with. Join us. talk about this and investigation into allegations. That justice department officials tried to overturn election results. Another national security headlines is at jillian analysts for cnn. Former assistant secretary of the department of homeland security and faculty chair of the homeland security program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government. Hello juliet kayem. Great to be here. I adored him. Finish sentences sort of kind of we're we'll we'll get those vaccine soon enough. I hope so. So let's start with on the vote last night down. Dc about the an impeachment trial forty five fifty republicans apparently. I don't think there should be a trial after the incitement of violence. Jason jassat the capital would. Would you make up. So they've chosen. I mean i think that this is. This is quite remarkable. We don't know if they've chosen permanently. Because i do think. Some of the polling is suggesting that the The american public has moved on from trump that that biden's approval ratings and his lack of disapproval ratings. The some of the pulling that just came out suggests that the senators are much more trumpian than the american public. Which i have been telling you. I always expected you get him off the platform you get him get him. Silenced and isolated and a lot of this stuff could go away so now it's just a matter for the senators to reflect what their populations want and right now. We're not seen it so it's just gonna take continuing you know voting them out isolation all the things that have to happen. It's going to take on the on the grass roots level the repub republicans want to save their party which includes our governor charlie baker. If he's interested as you start putting money into these state republican parties and get people elected who are not you know cunanan like i think there's four or five state republican parties committee parties. That are controlled by you. Know cunanan the conspiracy theories so it's going to be a long haul. The purge is not gonna be clean. And i think you're seeing it through Through the impeachment but But lots can happen and meal. You interject editorial comment here. I found the so depressing in a way Because these united states senators. They're not stupid people. They know that the election was not one by by donald trump. And so they're willing to go down this route. And i know it's all about getting reelected but my god. It's just like the the trump's line. I could get shot. I could shoot somebody in fifth avenue and nobody would care. My fans have stay with me. I this is. We're close to that. And i think total abdication right and it's i mean i think i think it will impact the partying long-term in particular. This idea that we can just move on. That's sort of ted cruz. Idea is really insulting to african americans and minorities. I mean. there was a noose confederate flag in the capital. So i think you're gonna start to see a lot of that played out but it is. It's it looked. He broke the party. The party shows shame on them and the question is whether the likes of moderate republicans. Like our own governor can stand up to it or if there's a new party in the making but this is not sustainable and by the way our own governor. You've praised twice chose not to vote in the presidential that no. I think that is so no. I'm not necessarily praising or not praising him. I'm saying i if if you don't get the romney in the bakers and others align in a concerted effort with the lincoln project and others to save the party. I'm not let me tell you. I'm not interested in saving that party. If becomes a party of twenty two percent of the american public and the rest is democrats. Fine with me. You know. I would y care. You know you're seeing you're seeing those numbers for example out of arizona. If i could just say you're seeing the number of people leaving the arizona republican party to either be independent or democrat. It's your you've got to be terrified. But but i think it's very wimpy of republic. I i did not praise charlie baker and twenty twenty or romney for voting for an. I mean that's just wimpy. I mean at this stage you know. Can we just yesterday's vote for a second marjorie. Said a lot of these people are smart people. A smart person who actually is a doctor who son when he signed the book. I think this is once they were sworn in yesterday. Did it not wearing a mask as he stood about a foot away from the mouth of a clerk in the senate which is capable as rand. Paul here is paul. This again is a smart guy. Listen to this moronic speech. He gives a before voting to say that it's unconstitutional to have a trial of someone who's already left office. Here's rand paul. Senator poll i want the democrats to raise their hands. If they ever given a speech that says take back fight for your country. Who hasn't used the word spite figuratively. And are we going to put every politician in jail. Are we gonna impeach every politician. Who has used. The words fight figuratively in his speech. Shame shame on these angry unhedged partisans who are putting forth this sham impeachment. Let me tell you. Speaking of sham the fact that rand paul equates a democrat or a republican who says fight for what you believe in with what donald trump did on january. Six is a disgrace. And let me tell you. I want to stay on this for one second when i saw the video last night. I want to repeat this. He walks over to a table on the floor of the cattle. The that sure again right he and he is his mouth as he leans over to sign is maybe a foot away from the mouth and nose of a young woman clerk who is wearing a mask and he has maskless. It is despicable. it's not just despicable. It didn't president as biden. Just say mass in federal buildings isn't it hoping is you're supposed to wear masks in there even be right side of the rules. Get worse the rules are. They is rand. Paul above the rules is is. That's the other thing you don't wear masks. You don't get in senator remember. I went to the gym by the way after he didn't have the results. Yes i mean. It's just but i'm sorry i agree with you. I mean these people. The party is eighty percent. Despicable mean. that honest forget ideas and policies and how you feel about certain things. The people who have chosen to represent the republican party are by large. You could call them whatever you know. Whatever we're doing these people are despicable. Because you have people like rand paul. You have people like ted cruz. Who are walking around like were not in the middle of a pandemic you know on airports and this poor girl who's on the senate floor and has to stand there with rand paul there and they don't view themselves as having represent you know being in leadership pro meanwhile the vaccine comes out and the frigging first in line the mall in my mind that is that is that you are a deplorable you. You're absolutely a deplorable. If that's what you're doing. And i think as i said. I'm not interested in saving the republican party today. I'm exhausted from that party. After four years. I have to tell you. I have napped more in the last seven days and i think i did like. I'll go to my husband. I'll be like i'm just gonna close my eyes like are you okay. I was like. I think just like not on twitter. Is my not on cnn as much. It's like everything sort of like no now something and so. I'm not interested in. That party owes me for years of my life but nonetheless. I'm interested in getting these despicable people. Out of representing our government julia. America couple of weeks ago. We talked about the piece you wrote in the atlantic. Basically saying that aggressive arrest and prosecution of the insurrectionists may have a a deflecting effect on other extremists. And i hope you're right and i think the jury is still out even. I'm troubled the thing. I don't understand or maybe not don't understand. Just don't know. do you have any information on. I know they continue to arrest people which is good. And hopefully they'll prosecute them in a big time way officer sick. Nick was murdered. And i haven't heard a word in days about any progress being made on identifying who is responsible for his murder. Do you know what that is. I do not i. I know that we have over one hundred and fifty arrests or investigation on the specifics. But we should be clear here. This morning. Our overnight. I think a d. c. police official committed suicide likely in result. The trauma happened on the six. And so so we. We should add another death. Preventable death but for the likes of donald trump ted cruz and others who who were promoting an insurrection. And that's you know and and you know essentially you just gotta say it that way. I mean that is what they did. And i will say that as right before i came on the air here. The department of homeland security issued A a a statement to the world. Whatever it is. They issued a The to law enforcement a bulletin they call it That did say that. They expect still right. Wing terrorism domestic terrorism in light of the big lie and might of the lies about the election. So the new. Dhs is definitely leaning forward on on on on on on addressing this much more so than say immigrant terror which there is non or or or very little or islamic terrorism which has essentially gone away. I mean it's really interesting. You know in terms of what the threat is right now. We see the fbi seems to indicate there because they're talking about eighty percent of their budget went to international terrorism. Only twenty percent went to domestic terrorism. So since we've all recognized that these militias and white supremacist. Terrorist types of are the biggest threat. We have that get realign their budget. I would hope they budget resources capabilities. Now unknown a fan. You will start to see debate about domestic terrorism law. There's that actually sorta splits across really strange lines in terms of right and left. I'm not a big fan of the notion of a domestic terrorism. I think we didn't have. It would just be something that you could prosecute for domestic terrorism as compared to international terrorism. It's something that has been a domestic hate crime statute but but related to terrorism. I think we prosecuted the boston marathon. Bombers you know timothy mcveigh. We've prosecuted lots of americans under regular statutes. My worry is you know we can't. We can't overreact like we did after nine eleven and all sorts of laws that could potentially be abused under a different administration. Imagine another trumpian administration. One cannot imagine that but imagine another very conservative administration that would then use domestic terrorism statutes to go over lawful. Protest or black lives matter. So i'm definitely off the bandwagon pushing that you're hearing a lot of progressives. In civil rights activists push for a domestic counter terrorism law. I don't. I don't think it's necessary julia obsessing while you're talking rand paul my apologies from say about our kids. You gotta get unstuck. You can't get i'm stuck. I didn't. I missed the debate last night because i was probably napping to. What is the argument of the forty. Five republican senators who voted that was unconstitutional to have a an impeachment trial of. Somebody's already left office even though we have had an impeachment trials of other kinds of federal officials who have left office. What is the argument that they would make or did make i don't know if they did a president grossly abuses his power in the last week in office or last month in office. It's too late to impeach as according to them impeach and convict him because it was at the end of his term. What are we ever do about any president who says well. It's open season too late. Devon impeachment trial. I'm just gonna violate every single thing. I can do for the final thirty two. What is their response to that done. I mean they have absolutely. This is a crazy thing. Okay let me just like actually describe this to rational human beings who may be listening so a year ago. He tries to undermine the election before the election by a steering international aid to a foreign government. Ukraine's design capability or desire to open up a an investigation of of biden's son. That then leads to a impeachment of which the senators Do not vote to convict. So he then comes around and says okay why i didn't win beforehand now. I'm going to win. After after does much worse right which is and no one can believe anymore. That trump didn't actually intend this. I think that is what we have to actually make clear. Because i think there's always like well. You know this was a big line. He was doing it for fundraising. Whatever there is no question given all of the news reports that have come out that this is exactly what he intended that that and your brain goes in that direction the actually what tends to be hurt or killed like i don't know i mean he i think he's that i think he was that Unstable so he does this Doesn't doesn't succeed and the senators. The stupid senators really say. Oh well he didn't succeed he's no longer therefore more we shouldn't convict him and so it's like now come back a third time because it seems to me that he now will succeed right. The third time is a charm. What are they think is going to happen. If they don't convict him he's gonna run again. It is just crazy. And whether he wins or not he is going to be in their brains for the rest of their lives. And as i said. I'm not interested in sagan that party but if they were interested in saving themselves it would be really smart asset to get to convict so kind. Let's move on to something President trump is no was basically a climate change denier. now we've got joe biden back rejoin the paris accords. But this is an interesting thing The he's done they're they're spending money in the fema budget to protect instead of just clean up after disasters to protect. Do preemptive axe to help build. Seawalls walzer relocate homes that are prone to flooding etc to fight climate. Change the the basic problem fossil fuels. But it is encouraging. I think it absolutely is something that has been done piecemeal in the obama administration by states and local so just and this is actually what my next book is about which some station i need to go into hiding them right it but it is the first draft do during the summer only saying this out loud because now it's going to force me to write but i like everyone else. I'm being distracted and the nappy. And so i'm gonna get you back so so. Our entire disaster management system was built on the premise. That disaster emergency management system was. Let me go back. Our entire emergency management system was built on the belief that disasters were random rare. And so what we would do is we would throw money at the problem. After the fact that say okay. Why don't you guys get get get back to normal and it will be totally fine and you know oh. The disaster happened poor you. Here's a big check. Well that just can't be true. That's just not true anymore. In houston and new orleans and plum island in miami and all these places. We know what's going to happen and wallets important to try to to try to under to try to stop the damage from happening. It's as important that we steer post-disaster funds to building more resilient and it's been done piecemeal hurricane sandy for example new york steered a lot of funds to pay people to move away from certain areas are likely to get hit again. But it's never been done in this large scale innocent. It's a tremendous move for. This is something fema has been pushing for probably two decades now. It's a tremendous move to just sort of rethink how we think about building rebuilding right. So it's rethinking how we think about rebuilding. Which is the disaster will come again and and are we better than we when what we were before and the answer for decades has been know where exactly the same. Because that's what we paid people to do. Said your house went down. Bill rebuild your house. That's just not sustainable. So i'm i'm really excited about. This is something that a bunch. Lots of people in my space have been working on and trying to push. Obviously everything lagged during the last four years but this is definitely future of disaster management and homeland. Security is the way you said. You're gonna spend working on your next book my next book. I haven't told anybody yet. He's on rand. Paul not wearing a mask to sign that book. I i am going to actually take a month often right. That's starting about an hour from now. How long how long would that be mcclay. It could be like warren piece. The way i'm feeling right now the legal i will tell you It i was telling someone it does whatever whoever you voted for hopefully everyone is now unified in wanting this administration to work and please about john. No i think people archery. I'm looking i'm looking at. I have much confidence in the american public than i do in in the republican leadership. I'm looking at this polling. I think some republicans think that biden stole the election juliet the same but the you know. Eighty percent of americans think republicans have to work with biden. Right i mean in other words it just you know everyone. Everything is cutting different ways. Look success is going to be the measure of of people's party affiliation and so far so so good. But i do think one of the nice things the last how. It's only been a week. Besides you know being able to look away is is is. My next book is on the mass. Mastering napping it's just really fun. So good at at three thirty of you know and i wake up early to work and so three thirty rolls around like well. I could do more work. Perhaps i'll nap. Which is great so to nats everyone even though everything snow horrible one. One last quick thing juliet. What's going to happen with the tokyo olympic games. Do you think so. It's god i don't know what simple leave. It sounds like someone jumped the gun in terms of suggesting that japan was going to walk away. What i've heard from people that i work with you all know. I do a lot of work. In global security efforts. sports security efforts is that japan does have contingency plans to shut it down. Those were interpreted as japan is walking away. And i don't think japan is there yet obviously. Nbc japan the international olympic committee the us olympic committee. Everyone wants to give the athletes a chance to meet and so i don't see why they would have to make that decision right now. Although i think it's probably now unfortunately more likely than not that they will not occur. I know there's lots of controversies about olympics especially here in boston. But i will say one thing if you think about the athletes and you think about the world coming together despite all the flaws of olympics and all of the corruption and all of the things that people did worry about when we were trying to host it here god could i use. I could use two weeks in front of watching olympia to one last thing about that. My other book by the way it's going to be about governor rhonda santa's great job. He's doing in florida by the way. Did you see that when the report in the british newspapers quoted an unnamed olympic official in japan. Saying it's over. Even though we haven't announced it's over that florida's whatever they are the hospitality commission. Whatever the hell they are said. Come to florida. So we're to believe that on six months notice now in the middle of a continuing corona virus by the way we should say japan has only had five thousand people die total total from and they may cancel the olympics but florida invite the olympic games to come to the united states. I mean he really numbers must be way above that right. Florida walls course. It is of course but they would do it. I presume with almost nobody in the stands. Yes that is. So it's so they would have limited. Well it is just because i have some insights into what the plan is so limited spectator. Yeah yeah for. Japan or go for japan ltd spectators obviously testing for athletes and teams and nationals and then of course The extent you can potting so like the opening ceremony would look very very different. Because you don't wanna bring all the athletes together so there was contingency planning around it. There's no way. Florida can hosts it. I the challenge for japan. And just tell people is not so much. Whether we'll be they'll they will be ready in late. July early august. The challenge for japan is the national competitions that have to be ongoing right now whether countries in europe and the united states can actually have those kinds of competitions to get their teams in place. And i think that's that's basically olympic trials. Start right about now. And i think that's. That's the rub. It's not so much august. Which i think most people feel like well we could. We could be together by the way of people getting a huge amount of email interest in my new book. And i don't want to give it away. The tentative title is senator. Doctor rand paul colon are you kidding. That's my working title and I know you're interested in. I will let you all know as soon as i'm ready to send. Yes exactly juliet. Good to talk to you as always. Thanks without writing. And i'll be napping now. I'm glad you very good for you. Join us every week. She's now for cnn. Former assistant secretary the department of homeland security secretary. Chair the homeless program at harvard. University's kennedy school of government. Coming up we're going to talk to art. Mekel man art caplan about how we doing on vaccines and how we're doing on corona virus acerra. Maximum eighty nine seventy ph gradient. Welcome back to boston public radio. Jim browsing madria again with twenty two thousand fans in attendance is the super bowl destined to become a superspreader and when it comes to rolling out an effective vaccine plan. Why has massachusetts done so poorly. Join us talk about this and other kroner buyers headlines is our capital artists. Doctors william f n virginia connolly mitty chair professor and founding head of the division of medical ethics at nyu school of medicine in new york city. And most importantly today we see he's drinking out of a gym and marjorie ma. Congratulations you are catholic. Very good judgment. I should say yeah. He's got the one. That's a little less muggy or the really total smile. We'll have to send you that one because you won't believe okay okay. So before we get to the super bowl and what's happening in massachusetts or weakened to the biden presidency. How's he doing on the virus stuff. Well first of all. He's talking about it so i like that. I believe we spent the last few months of the trump administration with trump. Not talking about anything other than the rigged election kind of thing so drawing attention as you listeners. Know i keep saying covert is the number one policy challenge for the administration. If you solve it you get the economy. Back you get the school's back Life returns is in my view. The single most important challenges got so paying attention to it as 'great second he brought in all these scientists and staffed up in a better way and he's not hiding couch in the closet and You know burying the science input. He's got him out there. I like the fact that the word seems to have gone out if the answer is. I don't know i'm not sure that's what you say you know. Make it up or fudge it and that's very important. I hope they stick to that big promises. What is it a one hundred million doses in one hundred days. Now it's now up to maybe one hundred and fifty million he said yesterday. Well that's going to be tough. And i hope we do it. But that's a tough one And we can see it. I'll tell you why. It's a huge fight breaking out past two days in europe between europe and britain over vaccine supply enormous battling and it's because plants in the european union in belgium went off line had manufacturing problems in the can't honor their supply. They gotta fix the points. Britain is screaming that those supplies. They're supposed to come to britain in and they've been doing pretty well with their campaign. I think they're ten percent population. Vaccination started early. But you saying not sending vaccine to you. They're made in belgium. We're gonna make it hard to ship them. We're going to try and use them here. So we see squabbling. And what we i you know we've seen squabbling a little bit between the states to but my point is manufacturing glitches when you make vaccines are very very common. I think i've warned about that. In the past. We see it all the time. When you make vaccine's you can't have a factory with a danger and distribute something two hundred and fifty million people can't happen got insure people say so. What worries me is that we'll get a well. I'm gonna say it. Even more strongly. We will hit manufacturing snags and we'll have to cope with them and that is going to get in the way that promise you know. Speaking of the. I've been reading a lot. The last couple of days about the term common usage vaccine passports and they don't just mean it country to country to make traveling easier so that countries that rely or regions rely on travel are more likely to get their economy back on but they mean for people to be able to move around in general more so than the economy comes up. And i have to say my initial reaction to without having read. Anything was well. It's probably a good idea. I'm not sure. But i think it is but then when i read some of the criticisms to know where you come up is it it. The criticisms i think are totally legit. Is it builds on the inequities that are ready. Baked into the system meaning lower income. People people of color are less likely to be getting a vaccine in timely fashion unlike middle class and wealthy white people so they have to deal with that reality and in one of the fact that they won't have a vaccine passport they get screwed coming and going so i have to say it left me and never land. What's the right answer on this thing. Well let's begin by saying vaccine passports meaning on your phone or some type of certificate. I've told people if you are lucky. You're getting shot When they give you the second shot in the first that they give you a card to keep track and use the recommendation get eliminated. I think it's gonna become one version of the vaccine passport. You'll show it in other words. I have two shots. Cdc card their inevitable. They're coming and what does that mean. It means to get on a boat to get on a plane. You're going to have to show proof of vaccination one hundred percent. Those industries sell safety. You know they tell you that the plane is safe and the both not going to sink. And they're gonna tell you not getting cova de or we're going to reduce the chance of getting covert if you fly or do Trips i think the hotel industry will be doing it. pretty fast. Thereafter restaurants demand gyms will demand. And they wanna see that you're vaccinated so it's coming plus and minus plus. I think it will help. Reopen the economy downside. A lot of people are going to know your vaccination status. We're never going to be able to keep that information. Private there may be forgery and counterfeits very quickly. You know people don't want to vaccinate will just start making up whatever they need to do so many actresses and destroy of the vaccine certifications on phones. Just because they're mean or stupid or whatever in archaic So predicting some of that. So we'll have problems maintaining the security of vaccine passports and as you said you most importantly the people to get vaccinated. I seem to be everywhere. The rich the entitled connected the well to do there seem to be able to get you know vaccinated because they know how to work the system. The poor are gonna need passports to do their jobs drive. A bus maintain the mta do whatever they're going to do. You know i'll i can say is. Isn't it really interesting. What are the things that covert has made. So clear is what the social and economic inequities. Our society took every single day whether it's vaccine access. Who's the most at risk. Because of the job they have. I mean it just goes on and on and on evictions you name it. We see it and we'd like to ignore it and the virus went us. We're talking art capital medical ethicist. Let's get back to a massachusetts we are. Jim is keeping a daily tally. We thirty seconds according to the washington. Post which i check every morning. Yeah we're only in thirty second place in getting people vaccinated in the come off about five percent of our state residents i try. Baker has taken some criticism that he went about this. The wrong way Do you think fitchburg guy. What do you think of pittsburgh to hell with. Lezak heck is fitchburg isolated. Right jim fitchburg all right anyway so I i am tracking. What's going on there. And i'm kind of familiar with the different. Let me say to begin with. I know the media loves this doing best. This is a race between. Who's the massachusetts five percent and the champion of us. All is like west. Virginia which is at nine percent. These are bad numbers. I mean i don't. I'm happy you know for somebody to be in the lead quote unquote but they all stink. They're terrible the rollouts mess. Let's not forget that so having said that things massachusetts in particular one i think they The distribution places where you could get vaccinated are not easily accessed. I think they opened up right in foxborough out at gillette. And they're opening up a bunch of other mass vaccination sites the bakers credit insurance. If you wanna really have access though is all going to be insulting council around massachusetts but you know foxborough is not the easiest place to get. Do i mean. I know you drive there in line up but i. I wish we'd like to see you know vaccination center maybe in a highly populated dense area. Boston or maybe something in downtown springfield or places where the people are or were. They work not. I'm not a fan of this travel out to the giant center If you can get there because again the disadvantages support. It's not easy. One other comment How many listeners have called them and said their eighty year old. Grandma is having a hard time using the internet to get an appointment. Yeah some states didn't do that. They set up helplines. They said we'll help you make the appointment. i know. three or four of 'em done in massachusetts should do to. It's no good to tell people who were very old work on it. Refresh your page sleep trying to get that apply. I mean come on. Well you know i'm going to say no one can do it. But he's not the best. I agree with that but let me say two things one and beggars defense. Exactly what you're talking about is what i think. He announced in the last twenty four hours. Forty he is expanding the mass vaccinations into urban areas. Including the reggie lewis center something in the park but the thing right and the thing. I am obsessed with art since you mentioned west. Virginia i did this on tv last night. West virginia is the fifth poorest state in the country. They're number two in that. Per capita capitalist in the washington post massachusetts is a fourth wealthiest community west virginia. Indiana places like that have a central registration system. Where you preregister you. Typing her name and information cluding i have to co morbidity as i'm one hundred and two years old whatever it is when your time comes they contact you. They offer you sites to make an appointment and then make the appointment for you. The new the website we talked about it on the air a few minutes ago mass dot gov slash covid nineteen vaccine is an improvement in massachusetts. But why does every state not have a central pre registration site. Where essentially not that. You don't need to stay on top of it. As a consumer or a vaccinate ee waiting but in most cases. They do the work for you. Why doesn't everybody have it. Because i think when we got into all these arguments about who goes first which are not unimportant but We didn't pay enough attention to logistics and so states said well how do we get people to dmv. And how do we get them to get a license. Oh well they have to make an appointment at dnv and we put up the thing. And then they make their appointment and they. I mean we didn't plan it the way we Should and that's what. I was trying to say jim. The access to vaccines should be driven by the vaccination Sources to get you in there. There should be nagging. You chasing you and saying here's three opportunities for an expected. Waiting time is an hour and bring a cup of coffee or whatever going the other way telling the vulnerable sick or seeing home staff. Busy healthcare workers go register. I mean that's that's not right by the way here's a little side note for us. Virginia lovers we do on geography on this one With virginia has led in. Vaccinations for decades has done a great job there of rolling out back scenes flu vaccines and so it isn't actually surprised. Although the media hasn't captured it that their number one or two or whatever they are in this they never even allowed religious or philosophical exemptions. Seen the state law it was all because somebody in the health department there was a leader. And really just organize things and sorta told the state legislature. This is how we're gonna do it. And it's been going on there for decades no with all due respect. I hate the challenge. You it's because they have nothing else to do. What the hell are. They do in west virginia except vaccinations much. It could be that and of course You know They're in that situation where everybody has that Davy crockett hat so he loves those identify. You know who's a resident who hasn't had one kid. I should say fake for. Let me be totally clear marjorie. I interrupted i'm sorry. Well i just something that's obsessing jim. What's obsessing me is that we're reading one of the reasons. We have a lot of vaccinations leftover and we do apparently unused vaccines of massachusetts is because so many people that work in these senior health facilities refusing to take the vaccine. I know we've talked about this before and believe you said because it's an emergency use thing but i mean it almost seems beyond belief that if i have a ninety year old relative in a senior living facility being taken care of every day by someone who refused to get vaccine i beside myself explain margin when you sit art set emergency i mean a because it is only emergency use hand fire somebody and get away i guess it just i mean you have to okay don't vaccine you take aleve or your suspenders. Something i just don't get it. Yeah so You know you remember the mount holyoke explosions with just uncontrolled. My mom died in a home. That was rife with coburn. We know what it means not to vaccinate the staff in in Nursing and let me add by the way another neglected group group homes. People don't talk people. They're dying it incredibly high rates with no anyway so to get to the point hard to mandate somebody taking an emergency use vaccine because it's an emergency exemption if you will on the other hand probably us time to say you know what let's mandate for hospitals and nursing home staff and group home staff and prison staff and let's fight it out in court but it's to vaccinate battle it out. Ok so art from tom brady. You may have heard Who used to play for the patriots. You probably know that is now playing for tampa bay. And even though he's about to about eighty s planning super bowl and the antisocial. Nfl brilliantly is the public relations matter again. At least them. Maya summation and i think yours. I read a piece. You wrote his said that of the twenty two thousand people who are going to be in attendance which was sort of surprising to me. Even though it's florida in at the super bowl seventy five hundred aren't going to be healthcare. Workers brought in at the cost of the nfl from the thirty two cities that have a team. Great publicity great pr for them. Horrible public health idea. According to you correct correct why bringing huge numbers of fans back when we've got mutating vaccine strains even if the healthcare workers you know where they're going to be a of people that they're letting in who aren't vaccinated and You know you. I've watched some of these playoff games. People are screaming and yelling and pulling off their mass and jumping around and hugging each other and doing what they do at games. I think it makes better sense if you want to be an example to say we're still restricting the fans and by the way does anybody believe that they're not gonna crowd together when they go to get food or when they get in line to come in or in the parking lot and i have a picture of the celebration in tampa of times big victory at the airport. No math. Everybody jammed together. Nobody protecting themselves when the plane came back from the game so or wherever they were but Green bay the. Nfl and sport should be doing better. And it's not time to have mass events. Let me just remind people aside from arguing about where this thing broke out. Was it china. Where was the next. Big breakout wasn't biogen. wasn't it. well there was a big breakout at the convention center when biogen had that meaning but even before that it was the soccer events in italy rose. They hit a gigantic outbreak in a soccer match and then it spread back to france. Which was the opponent and off. We went from the european side. So there's a lesson there by the way we want to say on that. If i may in the piece you wrote knowledge jamaica compelling case about it. It's a bad idea to physically have them there for the people there in the places where they go home to but also made. The point is what i'm sitting in my living room watching a game with twenty two thousand screaming fans in attendance. It sends the absolute wrong message. Even if it's subliminal about the fact that while things are pretty much back to normal because the stadium is whatever it is a quarter or a third full or some such you know. I'm so glad you mentioned tom brady. Because i have a friend. Who's obsessing over at tom. Brady's lack of mask wearing and talked about how it would be since he is. You know so. Fa i the other guy mahomes. I saw him in masks. The lot but So does it matter. If tom brady is running around maskless. They're all role models. These are the people in a celebrity culture which we are to set examples for others And yeah it matters it matters that donald trump never wore one to rarely i guess would be fair. It matters that biden and harris. Do yeah i think it matters a lot. I really do and I think also you know when you have these. Even i hate to say it. You can ask. Charlie baker in other officials start to reopen the restaurants. Right now or i get the economic thing that i'd wait a little bit until i figured out what these new mutant variants. That are supposed to be more transmissible. Give it another week or two. Let's see before we pretend like we start to reopen. I i i just worry. We reopened a little bit now. It costs us later a lot. So let me move away from cova for just a minute And ask you about these These people who are filing suit for wrongful wrongful life and they're basically arguing that they went through all this trouble to get you know instructions and do not resuscitate living wills and all that kind of thing and then they or their loved one winds up in a very bad situation and and their wishes are disregarded and now they're starting to see my wife out one of those against me really a bad one. Let me tell you know. Actually you know serious might have. This is off. I get your questions but Every once in a while my wife does check in with me and say art your little quick on the give up You know. Let him go thing. You know my wishes here. I'd like to get a chance little quick on the draw there buddy anyways. So there are many many instances in which hospitals don't find ignore living wills and a half to say. I'm not a huge fan of living. Will when i'm a fan of and i think we'll get us further than lawsuits about honor. These documents is to pick a decision maker when someone has authority to make decisions for you and then comes to the hospital and can speak you know and interact with the docs and the nuances and all the details of your case because it's hard to anticipate really in those written documents. What to do somebody says look. I don't wanna suffer. okay. I get that but sometimes in medicine you have to suffer to get better and you don't want to not do that It's it's unfortunate but that's true and so pick a decision maker picked who actually in trouble there with just one decision by the sound of thanks. Here's another little tip when you pick them. Tell them pick them. They write them down. They don't talk to the decision maker and then have a conversation. Say this is what. I want these. I made that joke about my wife. But i mean seriously you you have the conversation. What are your wishes. What do you want. How do you want to proceed. It's just going to go better. I don't think those lawsuits about failing to honor. My advanced directive are going to go for. They're just it's very difficult. You know to get into a courtroom and say well. I wrote this down and the doctor just says but i understand it and i thought there was still a chance or i didn't find it or it wasn't clear it's it's hard so i again. I'm not the biggest fan of written. Directives am a huge fan of picking surrogate decision makers just designating them and talking to them about what you want by the way your wife just texted me and said she wasn't joking for whatever our catholic it's great to talk to you as always enjoy the mug. The next one will be on. Its way quite soon so check them out with this show. Thank you very much. I bet you do sleep with jim derailing. But that's a personal matter. Isn't it marguerite. It's really something for us all to be discussing on the air. Enjoy us every week. He's the dodgers william member. Jimmy county may i sir every night could he's founding head of the division of medical ethics. Nyu school of medicine in new york. City coming up when it comes to reopen schools the c. d. c. says. It's safe to learn your abc's we are. Open the lines and asking you. You're ready for schools to reopen. Let's hear from moms and dads teachers. Anybody else s next on eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and madrid. And i should note marjorie that We had our conversation with art. Caplan right before showtime we taped it. If those of you are wondering why we didn't ask about what appears to be the least early stage disaster on the state's website for people seventy five years older at Hadn't been brought to light when we spoke tar but for now. if you're sorry going to say member. Total disaster of obamacare number the total disaster. I oh yes. They website here. It's so this'll be the second time in massachusetts and obviously the obamacare is a disaster for while the opening. so i'm i don't know i don't know what's up here in the state be for this even before this This rollout the website problem. As i've said ad nauseam we were still in the bottom. Half of all states vaccine distribution so governor baker said at a press conference be patient. Think we have no choice And i hope patients pays off quickly. If you're just tuning in earlier in the show. We talking to paul rebel former secretary of education massachusetts about the significance of the cdc announcing that according to their research. It is safe to reopen school. So reopening aligns for a second time on this asking. Are you convinced that it is. Are you ready for schools. The reopen or concern about the new variant of corona virus and given the bumpy vaccine. Roll out and by the way. Bumpy was the governor's word not mine in massachusetts and teachers now getting bumped farther down the vaccination line. Is this still too soon. The numbers eight seven. Seven three zero one eighty nine seven year. I'd like to add to our discussion. When paul rebel talked about the biggest problem. Obviously the couple of big problems one the psychological damage you broach this. That is being done to kids. Being at home to me is strongest argument. I mean most those obviously unimaginable but there are a lot of kids who are not dying by suicide but her suffering big time far larger numbers. That's a pretty strong argument. Put going back. Well sandra it primarily but it's not just them as well that that that is of great concern obviously but the learning loss thing that paul brought up to schools have time to leaders in school systems have tied to put together plans about how to make up for the learning loss when they're trying to get their teachers and other staff up to speed on. What remote learning hybrid learning. Look like. I'm not an educator but it's me for some of these kids just go back to where they were when they left. Go back to a year ago. Maybe and have other kids. That maybe were luckier and had different situations. But you don't know. And i don't know since i'm not an educator either you've probably aware i have no idea what damage a year like this does. Is it fixable. If you just start over as you suggest maybe it is or is it impede. Your learning abilities long-term one of the things we learned about the cast fight was that you know if you don't learn how to multiply in the year you're supposed to learn it you kind of. Don't get that chance again so you don't learn certain skills in the years you're supposed to learn them in third grade or fourth grader. Fifth grader. Whatever it is you're always kind of operating behind the eight ball so I think that's one of the issues. These little kids that were in second or third grade learning these important things but the critical issue right now is one of the ways to deal with learning loss at least limited going forward is the return to in person learning but the people feel. It's safe for this variant. I mean the numbers are going down in massachusetts. for example i mean everywhere. Almost the in the number of new cases dropping Positivity rate dropping but again out there in the wings is the variant which is apparently more contagious. We know what the impacts are gonna be so we want to know what your view is whether you're a teacher a parent a student or just an interested listener about what we should do about. Schools with oecd. Sang is very little in-school transmission. We all read the story about needham high school having to go all remote the other day after apparently schooled transmission there. That's the aberration. That is not the norm. So do you feel comfortable enough to have your kids your neighbors kids or whomever back in in person learning which everybody everybody agrees is better for any student Practically without exception eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seven. I know. I said it's every time we talk about school so i'm a broken record. Thank goodness i'm not. The parents apparent of school age kids. I been does anything matter. When you're bringing up your kids. Then obviously their health and happiness but also the quality of their education. And if you feel. I don't have the skills to do. Fill the hole that's been created by this. I mean i mean you and i. I didn't have the skills beyond kindergarten. Nor did i nor did i and i just when we have these parents cole and soon we'll have some of them today to talk about either homeschooling or how they're helping their kid. You a supplement. The admiration i feel for these people who the vast majority of whom are not trained to help educate their kids. Except what apparent would those just remarkable any case. Eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy is our number ten to thank you for calling. Welcome jim folks. Nice to hear from me again. Yom might my. My wife is a elementary teacher in a in a in a very nice school district. And i'm gonna make the same as the the boston situation but in school they do a great job of working the protocols they have control over everyone and their behavior unlike society at large So they have very few problems in school So the that's actually sort of a protected community Not that. I don't want her to get the vaccine. But i'd i'd rather my mom got it i Or some of her co workers who have co morbidity that really is a big deal for you can make everyone wear a mask and school. You can make everyone socially distance in his school. It's unlike the rest of the world so the the the getting stuff by grievance that the union leadership in massachusetts tends to try to do is is sort of ten years in this case. I think i'll listen up line. Don't go away before we go. It's your life. Who's the elementary school teacher. she'll feel protective of. I don't i don't know. Does she feel the same way. You do freaking out. Does she feel she does okay great. There's people she'd put in front of her all day app when you say tenured jim. What do you mean just not read in the room kind of deal every. Yeah everyone wants. That's what i mean by that. Yeah when everybody wants a thing you kinda see you know like i think about it okay. I'm i'm in my mid fifties. I'm not in the best shape probably could use it. But there's i can think of thirty people off the top of my head. I would put in front of me and if and if you're talking about now in boston where you maybe don't have ironclad control of everyone or once. All the kids come back to different things but you know in the in the in the outside of one twenty eight areas. You can judge the same metrics Her schools under control. Her district is under control. The kids follow the rules of parents. Follow the rules. Usually when they're in the school zone the the teachers the faculty and this is all reinforced. All the time. It's not because they wanna. They work hard to do it. We got the troll over people that everybody else doesn't good luck to your wife and We're glad she's doing what she's doing. Thank you very much. Eight seven seven three zero one. A nine seventy boy. I'd be good in a classroom right now. Just it is and we were talking. Madria the question of paul rebel about teacher shortage. We've been reading a lot of stories but not just teacher shortages substitute teacher shortage particularly problem now. Paul said because a lot of substitutes a retired teachers meaning older teachers. Obviously they're on their concern. Hopefully they'll get a vaccination pretty soon and he said that I believe he said that we are not immune to the shortage problem here in massachusetts either and so there are a multitude of nightmares. That people are confronting will and rutland your next. Hi hey jim and marjorie longtime listener loves hearing you guys will thanks so much So i'm actually an educator myself currently i'm i'm currently my prep period right now I teach a special education Residential school in rutland and we have a bit of a different situation from most other schools. We actually do have that level of control That the last caller was talking about Where most of our students simply don't leave campus at all for a myriad of reasons but Since we do have that level of control we are starting to move towards opening. Backup to a more normal Wave operating i've been teaching on a hybrid model Still am for now But i've already got my first round vaccine getting my next one in a couple of weeks As have several of my students. I teach Juniors and seniors But it would be great and i. It would be great if we waited a little while longer like our tap was saying a little while ago until we get a better handle on this new mortaring actress rain. Yep he will die. Mind if i ask you a personal question. why are you eleanor. Why were you eligible for vaccine so early in the process because this is where i teach is a long term care facility. Oh i'm sorry. I it's not. It's not elaborated on it. It's not just a school okay. it's also a residential facility So they you know they started having get vaccinated as quickly as possible We were able to do it on site. We didn't have any of the issues that a lot of other places have having but yeah i just think it would be great if we could hold off just a little while longer and get a better idea on whereas this new more infectious variant is going And how the vaccines will play out with that. We'll thanks for your work and thanks for your call you know. That's you're you're asking art before if we should wait till the vaccine. I think we'll well beyond that. I think will's point about waiting. This is how i feel about the relaxed reopening or closing restrictions in both boston and statewide is. Shouldn't we wait. What is it going to be another week before. We know what the reality is in terms of the The variance i think will on them. I'm getting a an attack teacher. Norwood who said She's teaching remotely today in her. School has been hybrid since september. She says his total but the cases that they've have come from kids Over the weekends or travel on vacations that kind of thing not allow transmission in the building. Itself were lucky and it's also been worth pointing out that in in catholic schools are parochial schools. Which have been pretty much open. They've not had a lot of transmission either In the in the schools they're and they're not loaded in the same way. Private schools are two. That's worth looking at loaded. You mean in terms of volume of money loaded in terms of money. That's schools in boston and are mostly serving kids of color kids. That don't have a lot of money. Kids that have chosen them over the the boston public schools katie from framingham. Thank you for calling okay. hi I actually am from worcester. But i'm in framing. But that's the that's where my my son goes to school all these or and I'm a teacher as well as a parent. And i'm currently not teaching. Because these home fulltime remote in worcester he's been home since march thirteenth and Yeah it's been a long time up. Alexi adhd so. He needs a lot of support. And we're lucky. My wife is a special ed teacher. She's remote fully remote And we have a friend who helps us with him three days a week like into a part time job but i wanted to say i don't feel like it's time for us to go back yet from the educator's standpoint and from the parents standpoint I'm miserable. I hate me at home with my son It feels terrible. Because i feel like. I'm really good educator but educating your kid is totally different than some guy with But i know of at least twelve. People who had to quarantine in two different districts Because people knowingly went into school buildings with kobe and though so it is nice or teachers. A combination Yeah and So it is not a controlled environment. We'd love to think it as we'd love to think. We had that control over something in there but kobe is beyond our control. And i think that keeping people alive is more important than the fact that i'm miserable. Katie I loved that you're honest enough to admit miserably your number one and number two. What's about learning loss with paul revlon. I mentioned a minute ago. What's your kid experiencing. Would you say long-distance distance versus the his his history his history who a boy right of being class of being classroom one because he's a little bit different anyways but Like i have to pull them out from under his best in the morning to get him to stay on this thing and he is most days but we make it through and at the end of the day. So my happy kiddo and review we play and do all the things. And i just keep you know trying new things while you're goodwin katie. Thanks for a margin question for him so the question. Thanks for sharing your story. And good luck with your. I've got an email from keith. Who says his wife's a teacher metro west. They two small kids. He has a remote full-time job. While his wife was remote in the fall she and the kids went back to school daycare january since then his family spent more time quarantining from three separate covert exposures from school daycare than they've spent in school the boomerang. Thanks causing terrible problems. Plan the camp plan destruction without regard the multiple cover test. We've taken the last month. And he has a co morbidity so he says he's ready for schools to go back when either one my wife and i are vaccinated or two. You can tell me how to socially distance from three year old so the house complicated situation. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eight hundred nine. Seventy wh the reason we're even having this discussion as we mentioned the cdc announced that according to their research the in-school transmissions are so low that it was time for major reopening of schools. There seems to be at best. A split verdict is whether or not that is a good idea. He's on from laurie in new hampshire. She so we should remember. Kids aren't falling behind. They're surviving a pandemic same. With the teachers they'll be time to teach multiplication next year which is a great point. I hope hope you're right laurie. I hope that they go back to where these kids were. In some cases who have not been able to get get good remote access either. Because you don't have a computer whatever it is but but if we are right and we've spoken a bunch of doctors psychiatrists others about the psychological impact negative of of being away from your friends remote learning and that sort of stuff the thing i don't know we should ask the next person who has expertise in that area when he or she joins us as a guest is you don't just it isn't like you've flipped the switch kind of thing. It isn't like you say well have had a lot of psychological trouble with is beyond just the learning trouble now going back to school tomorrow. So everything's fine again. That's not the way. Mental health works so the question is what's the longer to me. What's the longer term impact of this. What are we going on. Almost a year isn't a almost a year of remote or hybrid learning for the vast majority of kids in america plus in the gone wealth. Is sarah from holding. Thank you for calling sarah. Hi i'm calling in. I'm a mother of five kids Ranging from age five fifteen so. My house has been a little bit of zoo our district. My husband's working from home. He's an accountant. I'm a healthcare worker. So i'm out of the house and kind of the biggest risk to the family A couple of days a week. I'm a midwife. So i deliver babies second. Covert backlash spruyt. Yeah so. I'm feeling a little bit more at ease about bringing anything home to my family but no And my kids are district just went back hybrid last week and my three teenagers while my twelve thirteen and fifteen year old. They all decided to stay remote. We kind of left up to them. They're good kids. They wear their masks And they really enjoy school. I think it's less drama. I think they're all doing great with their grades. Even my twelve year old on it. I p Mostly for math health. And she's done great at school. I think going to middle school. She has organizational difficulties. Those staying home is a little easy. She doesn't have to navigate. Classes knows her teachers pretty well. She gets some extra help through zoom And it's worked out. My only concern is my kindergartner. by you know she i figure either way she wouldn't get a kennedy garton experience even if she went back with mask on sitting away from friends. No playtime so. I think she might just do kindergarten again next year. In part of maurice less is thesis. I have a question you said. You're midwife right. Yeah do you deliver babies in the hospital or home. I actually do both. I work for family. Practice and lemon stern deliver leominster hospital. And then i part time practice with midwifery group. That does humbert. The reason i'm asking you is. I wonder if some women are hesitant to go have been hasn't to go to the hospital during kovin even though you know there are different issues with home birth and stuff if they'd rather be in their own house Eve yeah yeah yeah. I mean our home. Birth practice has grown and grown. I mean it was kind of at the beginning stages. Mike in two thousand nineteen started getting busier the beginning of two thousand and twenty and then boom a lot busier level and now a little bit where people aren't as scared especially knowing that healthcare workers are getting the vaccine So you know. I think people choose home birth for many reasons but that was definitely a drive that we've never sarah thank you very much for the car and good luck with your brew. Eight seven seven three eighty nine seventy is the number be. Pr w. g. b. h. dot org. I know we're gonna take a break. We are taking apprentice read. Aiden who's our colleagues monitoring. The governor's press conference zest about schools and the teachers union pushback over the whole low being pushed down the vaccination shane priority list Paraphrase with governor said larger issue here is we put hundreds of millions of dollars state and federal money in sporting community school districts to make the investments that need to help kids get back to school and many many school districts many private schools parochial schools have pulled this off successfully served kids in person since the fall. We're about to receive roughly seven hundred million. We'll go to cities and towns and school districts to make whatever additional investments. He then tells pooled testing which we talked about last week. Which is a hugely important step in terms of getting through school. Let's meet talking not him and then he ends by saying. Can we all just work together. On behalf of the kids give them what most of them are really hungry for which is a chance to be in a classroom. Their friends with the teacher face to face so we do know what side The governor's on he's been pretty relentless about that and he believes that safe. You also says i'm sorry. The problems were grading for kids both emotionally and educationally by not having them in school is not in the significant. That's governor baker. Just a minute or two ago. Can you imagine if the nurses got together and said hey you know what we don't have the p p we don't have the equipment we didn't sign up to lose our lives. Imagine if they took this attitude well but in all fairness there. And i'm not defending. That is appalling when that's happened when you hear people wearing a mask for days and nurse. Yeah there's no alternative. They can't remote. Lee serve a patient. I wish they could. A teacher think was good to go to work. Well said we're gonna do this. I got that but then there'd be a lot of dead even greater number of dead people but you're not going to hear me say anything. Praised healthcare workers these frontline workers. Is it the courage and commitment and we did a segment two nights ago with a woman who used to be. Actually my doctor. She's now head of the schwartz center for compassionate care. Doctor beth aloun and corey feist who sister-in-law. I told you was dr laura brain. Who's at emergency room. She ran an emergency room in new york city and she died by suicide and was a high achieving. Incredible doctor from everything. I read a long story and the new york times and she just couldn't take the stress and the the fact that she couldn't do which she believes she needed to do even though she was not just for patients but for the people you're talking about her co workers doctors nurses. It's a really. It's a lot of sad stories like that. Okay we're going to keep talking about this for a while longer again. The numbers eight seven seven. Three one nine seventy pr w dot org. You can tweet us at boss. Public radio should the schools in massachusetts be. Open keep talking seventy. Vh welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and Margery eagan we're gonna spend a few minutes talking about how i feel about schools reopening charlie baker emphatically said a few minutes ago. Go to it. Have your kids back in the classroom. Cdc saying much the same thing but as you've heard from the callers i'm sure you know in your community and your circle of friends. There's let's say at best. A split verdict as to whether or not now is the time. Let's go to maryanne. Franklin marianne either i i on the big show. I'm actually. i'm actually a big fan. I'm i'm a parent of a young teacher in massachusetts who has been in the classroom since september not by choice but by rank and at this point. The mental fatigue concerns me greatly for her for all teachers. If you're going to say okay. Let's have the kid be in the classroom then. Teachers need to be higher up on vaccine. List You know when when they first went back in her town In september they said we just want to get get through until thanksgiving and then in giving it was going to just through until after christmas and then it was you know. Now we're gonna die so it's almost like the the the mental preparation and okay. I'm just going to get to here. And then they extended it and They're just a mental fatigue. I think that's happening to the teachers. Also is it's a hybrid so she's teaching half the kids in the class and half the kids on the computer which is to separate jobs I just think we're asking a whole lot of teachers and now to force them and say even more. Hey we're going to send the kids in but we're not going to give you the axiom yet. It just doesn't make sense to me. Well have to say the vaccine thing. The problem we've been pretty critical of the governor's rollout of late but in the governor's defense. There's no defense for having half the doses on in freezers and not administer. I still haven't heard a good answer for that. They're the defense that is impossible to re to refute what he said he can only distribute even if imperfectly that which the federal government gives them and in light of the fact that they're limited doses. While i'm totally sympathetic. To the fact that teachers shouldn't have been bumped down an i understand. I'd probably feel the same way by moving. Sixty five year olds up. You know marianne you could also say in that same group as teachers are grocery workers and if you had a choice between a teacher in a classroom where you have some control over the students there. As opposed to a cashier we have no control over the hundreds of people who you are a foot away from during the day. You know you might make a case that grocery worker should get a shot ahead of future. So it's it's one of the. It's like an impossible with a funeral home. Exactly i mean it's you make a wonderful and compelling case but there are a lot of compelling cases and all i can say is i would feel exactly the same way you do and good luck to your daughter and your daughter right. Different is remote teaching. It works well doesn't work as well by the way i should make clear my view is. We're not ready to have kids back in the classroom. Even though i understand all the arguments to do it except nice later cases but the fact is indisputable. Marianne while you say it works. It doesn't work as well as in the classroom. There's no question about that. The question is what are the countervailing considerations like the mental and physical health of your kid is a countervailing consideration. And i wouldn't want to be in her spot or his bader. Whatever your kid is or your so thanks for making the case and good luck to your child. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine hundred. This everything's impossible. You know this. It's like every everything is impossible here and you know we're talking. There's no safety. I mean at people are sometimes acting as if we can make things say we're not going to be able to make things safe. You just be able to make things relatively safe even with the even when everybody gets vaccinated there are going to be tiny numbers of people. Let's hope it is nine hundred ninety five percents effective but they're going to be small number of people who are not gonna protected by this. There's no safety in the world. Unfortunately well let me add to what you said when the midwife called and said she was with five kids a minute ago and she was somewhat relieved when she got her second dose while the science from what i read. Please correct me if you understand. Otherwise suggests that she is pretty well protected very well protected. There's no it's not clear that that person who's gotten the vaccine can transmit the it is. You're right there's no. There's no total safety david in arlington. Welcome to the show. Thanks colon high Hold on. I wouldn't have taken off the speaker. Thanks for taking my call taking speaker. What's up so you know early on. I was a big advocate. I still think we should've done more Total shutdown back in december both locally and nationwide. But i am very concerned. I'm getting the feeling that yes sending kids back to. School is so important for them. Both academically and I know my niece. For example in nashville. You know she's very bright her parents are. Hd's but she's really struggling without the direct social interaction at school I think that can be made up. What really concerns me is deeper mental issues and this week on the are all things considered there was a show about how suicide rates for teams and use have have skyrocketed. They or nothing. Nevada and i be. I would not be surprised if that was happening in other places as such. I think it's important to get the kids back to school when possible but again i just don't know if it's fair to ask all the teachers to go back without access to the vaccination. I would argue. A compromise might be of course looking at teachers with You know other conditions but also may be at saying. Hey maybe teachers over forty five or fifty or eligible for at least a little bit earlier but you know it. it's it you just. You just live my bubble though by saying it's all possible. I mean like if you to them who take off the list and it's just such a difficult issue right you know. Most of the it's funny david. Almost everything margin. i talk about. I think it's fair to say. Both of us have pretty strong opinions like our listeners. On one side of the other. This is one of the few situations where other than a lack of caring a homicidal like of caring like in our former president. You understand almost everybody's point of view. It's it's a really. These are all really tough questions. David thank you very much for the for the call. Eight seven seven three zero one eight nine seven hundred spent a few more minutes on this and by the way. If you're saying. I need relief from the montgomery connection to the animal. World is going to be joining us. Some great jim worms. You saw it on video and it is hot it is susan. Thank you for calling. Hi jim marjorie. Thanks for taking my call. I gotta say that. I'm frustrated about so many parts of this but i'm going to focus on one. I have two kids in boston. Public schools their home. They've been home for almost a year. you know they don't love it. It's been a big adjustment. But i would dispute jim. What you said about you said. It is indisputable that being in the classroom is better than being home. I i don't think you know what being in the classroom today in our public. Schools is my my children. Go back at the end of match. They will be in one classroom all day with a small group of children and a teacher. Who's teaching on zoom all of their activities all day long will be structured around social distancing My daughter really wants to go back to school. But she doesn't want to go back because she cannot going back with her friends who all opted to go back you know. It is not indisputable that it is better and one one of the parents said we have learned to adapt this. It has not been easy and it just like it is so frustrating that that if we want our children to go back to school then vaccinate the teachers that the teachers susan we got it and i hear i hear you and i make wonderful toys. Thank you for making them. I appreciate actually guess what's going to happen here. I mean we're talking about the three phases. Now that we're in where the seventy five year olds and the sixty five year olds then this whole group of people including teachers and for phase two. Yes there at the end of february. Beginning of march fiorella vaccine. If no if they're going to get them in time for that but that seems to me it was going to end up happening. Here is that you're going to get is teachers. Get vaccinated on start going back. Yeah but let me say by the way. I'm not taking away at all. From what the caller just said in the classroom in quotes today under the circumstances she described is not in the classroom as normal times right in my own defense. I have read a lot. I don't have the experience that she does with two kids. And so i respect her. Point of view Bigly the president used to say. But everything i've read is even in those sort of very unusual circumstances in a classroom is better. Maybe only marginally so again. I respectfully disagree but having said that. Marta your notion about the vaccine and her notion about the vaccine if they're in the second half of phase two unless all of a sudden there are the distribution process turns around overnight realistically. They'd get a first shot. What in early to mid march. They'd get a second shot in early april. Then you have to wait a couple of weeks until it's effective. What is it ten days or something after that. we're talking about late. April or early may meaning essentially the end of the semester. I'm not arguing against it. I'm just saying if you wait for the vaccine which may be as the the wise thing to do for teachers. You essentially a writing off another in-person semester. And maybe that's the right thing to do but they're not about to get vaccinated anytime soon. I would argue at least a month away okay. Well let's hope not because a lot of things move fast way. I just have to say our colleague chelsea. We asked her as soon. We said since we want to talk to side to have to lift our spirits. Please tell us students is ready and chelsea just said are year. I don't know if you've heard this two time for ship-worm sex so that's those those of the ship worms. I never knew we're going to find interest around for this journalists. Montgomery joins us. This the ship-worm sex and other exciting kind of racy news from the animal kingdom addition of afternoon suicide bombers next eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio to boston. Public radio jim brady marjorie. Join us align the lead our monthly edition the afternoon zoo and as marjorie said leading off at least with a racy. Conversation at the intersection of animal and human behavior is sign montgomery sigh of course. Journalists naturalist be pr contributor. Her latest. terrific book is becoming a creature. Cy is a pleasure as always the heavier around. When else can we discussed gender fluid would eating clam sex exactly exactly. We have a lot of amls today. Doing what humans do in our in our conversation today. But let's let's start with what jim is is nicknamed on the ship-worm sex tapes. Yes fabulous this ship. Worms doing sign. Montgomery well i've you've seen you've seen we studied you. Just gotta watch him when your husband or wife comes in because there you are watching animal torn against that. They probably wouldn't know what it was. And because well even if you saw with your own eyes sticking head under water you might not know what you're seeing Because first of all ship worms. John ship worms the giant feathery ship warm Looks like a war but it's really a clam and how do you even have sex if you're a clam because clams do not have sex organs clamps do not have brains but they have totally hot pseudo copulation. It's not really sex without sex organs And i should tell readers to watch out if you look this up. Ignore the clam sex position in humans. You don't wanna see that. So he's how did these clouds have sex. This guy with the incredible name of ruben. Ship way up taping these these giant ship worms having sex but he had to speed up the tape. Four hundred dollars to see what was going on what was going on was well. It looks like a snake. Pit where g Normally clams just release clouds of sperm and eggs and hope the to meet but these clams they're trying to stuff gobs of their sperm into the siphons of their neighbors. They're doing a thing called smack. They're doing another thing. Called the white. They are wrestling with their siphons to try to get their sperm into somebody else's life while trying to put sperm in to your siphoned somebody else a completely other ship worms to put sperm into your syphon. It is the wildest thing and no one would ever know if they hadn't film this and speed it up to four hundred times normal speed by the way it is great It's really is great video and it's a great story if you just google ship-worm sex frankly you'll get the new york times story where the videos diverted coming Well i don't know it's more monday. The academic side of this if these ship worms don't have their clams as you say they don't have a shell. Why are they a clam as opposed to. Why are they clam. Oh that's that is a a really good point they have. They don't have A typical shell like a clam. They have a little bit of a shell. Which i see us. I think to help them chew the would way. It's kind of like all. Mammals have hair by what about whales. Well it turns out wills have like one or two to gain them. Yeah it's enough to game gain them access to the Citation category with the new york. Times website is fight crashing with people trying to see the video. I'm sorry more you may not. You may not be aware of this. But whenever we talk about animal sex jim goes onto rhapsodised about a movie called micro cosmos. I believe it was. Cosmo's yeah discussed this. Well i wanna say also. I've said this many times every time i do. Our whole team here mocks me for weeks at a time. Microcosms is a film with no narration. Affair member which shows microscopic animal interactions. And the scene. that is. i'm sorry friends. One of the sexiest scenes. You will ever see our to dung beetles dung beetle having sex and it is. I don't know if you remember that part of the film film fifteen twenty years old you can still get it all over the place. Essentially they wrap their bodies around each other in the most incredible ways to do what dung beetles do and it is really it is. It is really embarrassed. Even be saying this. It is really hard to take your eyes off. It is totally understand it. And i love one of the things i love about. Microcosm of this is that the the animals are imbued with individuality. We are caring for them. We are rooting for them. We are you know we. We're happy for them. For having such great sex there's there's another great scene with a dung beetle. Who's doing i mean you guys. Jobs must feel like this a lot. I was just saying to your your producer that her job must feel much like dung beetle. They get these off the they roll up bits of dengue and they roll it up this hill and You're just rooting for this guy. And and then the the giant dung ball rolls down the hill and he has to go all the way back and your heart sinks. But i love how it takes these ordinary An tiny creatures and shows that they are experiencing the world to and at the very end. You remember the lawfully transformation. That happens at the end describe. Remind them do good. It's a it's a larval creature. Do i do yes coming out of the water instantly transformed into a beautiful gossamer adult and you watch this process and it's much more attractive than for example human birth which is a little too moist me but what you feel when you see this creature is that you've seen an angel you've seen this gloria face of god in this beautiful little thing and what is it. It's a mosquito. I had forgotten that part. That's right that's right to one of my favorite films. You know by the way i just want to say. I can't believe how much you understand about radio. Business one of our best producers ever the day after she rolled a dung beetle to the top of the hill. Dungle and it down. She quit we haven't heard for. Do you remember those. Like seven years ago marjorie never heard beetle forget the dung ball successfully the top or no yes yes to watch a film very filling. It's a great. It's a great film. Okay so. I'm so glad. I found somebody else's saw this thing says simon comradery introduced kim. I had to see it several times. Don't you remember you do a border for you if you all done beatles. Okay all right jim. that's all i can say. She wasn't as enamored of it is i was. I have to say so. Montgomery when marjorie introduced us. She said a lot of behaviors of animals that mimic those of us. Who are human. Animals tells the story of these thieving monkeys. I dunno the call them and about. This story defies belief to me but great that these monkeys monkeys from poly And their long tailed macaques met long tailed macaques at various temples when i was traveling in southeast asia and they will steal things from you. You've gotta be really really careful but at this particular temple where they were studied in bali. It's the hulu temple they have learned to not. Just take your stuff but take the really high value stuff not like your hairpin or your empty camera bats. They want your cell phone. They want your prescription glasses. They want your wallet and why to trade it for something that they really want. They recognize these as high value items because they have been studying us guy. I mean they're using them. Essentially as tokens Okay but i wanna know they talk about in the story about how the monkeys are negotiating with the human beings so i assume that means if a human being just offers them some little tiny thing. They won't give back the cell phone they have to. I mean do they have to give them on your video at this video of this The one that i wash was a fellow who His prescription glasses. We're taking office face by this. Macaque and macaque is sitting on a wall and macaque is kind of absent. Mindedly chewing on the glasses and the man quickly realizes. Oh my god you know. I've i've gotta give them something in return for this. I'm he's not going to just hand it back. And so he offers him a banana. And the macaque takes in throws it into the man. Stupidly offers him another banana and he hurls it again to the ground and so then the guy the human gets the idea like oh maybe a better offer a different things so he offers him a hard boiled egg in a bag and again macaque things it and so eventually he gives the macaque looks to me like a fat cucumber but generally That's odd because they don't really like cucumbers that much and it might be one of the tropical fruits that i don't know and that when the macaque let's go to the glasses and the man snatches them back but this is hilarious They filmed like two hundred and seventy days interactions between monkeys and visitors and they found that typically there's a long period bargaining and sometimes the negotiations will go on for twenty five minutes before they come to you know getting what the the monkey really wants. That's hilarious. how big are they. they're pretty. they're pretty big animals i Had one of my head wants their tail. Yeah yeah. I was at a temple in lop borey in thailand and Monkey wasn't bothering me particularly But i think was just kind of well sitting on my head. They're they're not shaped like cats but they're like a big heavy cat. They're not as big baboon but they do have scary teeth and when they get irritated they bare their teeth at you and this happens in the film that i was just telling you about. He's like a banana. Just take your but in and you can just off. i'm disgusted. But in the past there have been experiments with different kinds of of monkeys and chimpanzees in the lab that show that they can be taught to use plastic tokens to exchange for food and that they know the value of the tokens like one token would purchase one grape. Well a different token would purchase three grades but this isn't an a laboratory and this isn't something that the people taught the monkeys do. This is something. The monkees are teaching the people to do. Well you. it's amazing. I you know. This is certain kinds of primates. Whatever the proper terminology as they say it has the cognitive development level of three year old or four year old a three year old. I mean this is a young person sophisticated behavior. I mean i. It's really it's amazing. Always it drives me nuts when people say the animal has the cognitive ability of and they name a larval human who is not finished and complete. You know what i mean. I mean three year olds know a lot of stuff and they're very cool but they aren't finished. They aren't done. they're not adult and they they are. We're looking at at animals. Who if we're looking at them as adults you know they're they're not underlings of ours. They're they're they're not you know unfinished So i think they really are extremely sophisticated in the fact that they've figured out how to train us so well when it took some of our fancy smith he's scientists with big phd degrees to quote unquote. Teach monkeys to use tokens They didn't have any such training to teach us to to use our stuff as token. We're talking assigned montgomery so some gunnery another incredible video. We watched in preparation of your coming. Today was this film of this bully as the as the fish. Go by now. Is he a bully or does he have a reason why he's doing this well. We no one really knows for sure. What's going on in the mind of the octopus. But what is so fascinating about. This is that he's not just randomly punching what he does is he takes his armed. Octopus takes his arm. and balls. it up into a fest like our fist. Punches this I think it was a grouper And it. It's a pacific blue octopus. This fellow At university of of lisbon made eight recordings in israel and egypt of octopuses punching fish. But if you look at it you don't realize the circumstances that have brought them together. He's not just randomly punching it. Somebody he is hunting with that fish. Sometimes octopus hunt with a number of other species of fish and they do it together. They agree sometimes. One species will go get the other. Hey let's go hunting because an octopus can use into little tiny corners whereas a group or for example with their fish with big heads and they're kind of bottom dwellers so they can scour the seafloor the act. Brian do stuff that the group can't group can do stuff that the octopus can't and in this instance. It looks like the octopus is possibly irritated because his partner just screwed up. Or it's a hunting partnership in which one partner cheats and possibly they the group or may Be about to eat. The prey item that the octopus wants to punch him away and steel. And you know that happens with people as well if someone will take my food. They'd be getting mutates for those who don't know or haven't listened to side with us for ages. Are your the sullivan. Octopus is one of the great things. Ever since you. I remember tina octavia is that i know. S thank you for it was great. It was just just great. Did you ever witness this kind of behavior in your research. Well it wasn't even in your relationship is a better way to describe What you did with these octopuses. Did you ever see this behavior. I didn't see punching I have in the wild scene. An octopus hunting with a grouper. Although frankly i didn't realize at the time that's what they were doing I'm i was surprised to see that that groupers aren't the the only fish that have partnerships with other animals to to hunt. And as we know. There's lots of other animals that recruit other species don. But i did see in the aquarium that the octopus was aware of other occupants in the tank and there was a sunflowers fee star. Now this is somebody. He's he's not got arms. He has a whole bunch of different race but he doesn't have a brain but he knew stuff that we know it was a male by the way because one day he released his milton. That's how you can tell And at one point Octavia who had laid eggs and was guarding them in her lair. This the c store was getting a little too close to her precious eggs and she did chase him away and was clearly threatening him. Just get the heck away from my eggs. So i've seen something similar. Well that's another video you can find the octa. I don't know what the keywords are there. But if you do octopus punch you can enjoy it as much as maureen side speaking of partnerships in hunting and this is not cross species. Tell us about electric one. I am terrified by anything. It's like a snake. Gerneele is just can't handle that at all rats and snakes or my to Problems i know marge saying his lot of problems too many. But i sorta figured i'd preempt margins but they're right up there you're thinking okay so describe how ails these electric eels which are terrifying one at a time. Get together to the point where i think when they hunt their prey collaboratively the charges so intense. They often blast the prey out of the water. Is that right. Yeah unbelievable in fact you might even say. It was stunning from god. But this this is amazing. And i by the way When we get you to new england aquarium meet our electric ills. Everyone wants to go behind the scenes and get an experience of being shocked by the electric eel. And i have done this and it's really not so bad but it's cool because your hand goes flying away with feels it. It's not it hurts but not for very long Their their duration of the shock is to one thousands of a second. So it does kind of feel like you stuck your hand in electrical socket Yeah you've probably done that many times. Yeah right we're face. heels are doing is up to a hundred. Electric eels will gather in one group. I mean can you imagine this. So they gather to herd fish like like tetris into apprai- ball. Which is something that you see like. Wales will do rounded is that what a round it so it just becomes a big tight all they heard it like a border collie a bunch of border collies herding sheep into a big tight ball and then up to ten years will work together and issue. This super-charged jolt but just blast the fish right out of the water and the voltage on. These guys can be eighty six hundred volts. The electrical socket has one hundred twenty fifty volts. Could kill you is. It went on for a very long time. But you don't have to. I mean you don't have to worry if you if you come and swimming the amazon with electric bills. Which i have done. You don't have to worry They aren't going to attack you because they don't wanna to eat you and in fact Some of the people that. I knew in the amazon when they would get attack of rheumatism and they'd be all sore. One of the things they would do is that they go find an electric eel and gently touch it with something metal there machete and allow it to shock them Just kinda do everything right. Well i don't know maybe they just feel better when they're not being shocked by electric eel. You know oh you mean out. Oh exactly you know by the way the aquarium. I believe Under marty walsh is Soon to be leaving as mayor directive of. I think it was yesterday. Marjorie will be reopening on february fifth. I mean still have capacity limitations. Yes forty five percent. But i think it's it's either sometime next week to the fifth an electric ill and there's one behind the scenes in one in the front and there's a volt meter so that you can see when the electric eel is using his electricity to hunt and stun prey. So we'll have a minute left but we get back for the final minute of the amazon and electric. He'll do you have any trepidation when you jump in the water. And you know their electric bills even though intellectually you know as you say they don't wanna eat human. Are you okay with that. I mean i'm totally fine with that. I'm scared of going to a cocktail party. That you have to worry about. The amazon really is ants. And not that. They're gonna kill you but they hurt and they're everywhere they're in boat there in this warm sometimes don't they. Yes they sometimes do but sometimes they come into your house and it's