1 Episode results for "Johnny Bundy"
Ted Bundy: Buried Secrets
"She was a blondie with Hayes allies. Ann Marie Burr at eight years old was lively and good natured. Her smile was legendary. She was big sister next in line was Julie. Who was seven Greg Five? And Little Mary was three years old. The large Catholic family called the North End of Tacoma home, a tidy brick, English style bungalow. The kind of house, the big bad wolf could not blow down. At least that's what they thought on that. Hot August Day in nineteen sixty one. It was a Wednesday and the last week of summer vacation. Then Labor Day and back to school, and on that day sunshine had been muted by dark, forboding clouds. The Air had turned monkey when Anne Marie came bounding through the door, begging her mother Bev Force sleepover at her friends. But with summer, winding down the harried mother of four. Felt it was high time to tame her. Wiley brewed from the Ad Hawk summer routine. Going to bed early and preparation for an early morning school schedule so. She next that sleepover. and Oh. How that split second decision would later come to haunt her. The storm kicked into high gear. Heavy rain hit the rooftop wind howled. It was a batten down the hatches kind of night. That night Anne Marie was sharing a room with Mary who is still nursing a broken arm? She story crying out for her mother and Anne Marie dutifully brought her little sister to her parents room where their mother soothed. And then sent the girls back to bed. All was quiet except Barney, the family dog barking. Bevin don dismissed his cries believing. The storm was to blame for spooking the which. They had no idea. Evil had entered the family home as they lay sleeping. At Dawn Bev awoke with start. Fear in her heart. Was it mother's intuition. She rushed to check on the children. and Maurice bed was empty. She descended downstairs to the living room like a flash flood. The front door was ajar. The dining room window wide open. Outside she noticed a garden bench had been moved from the backyard, and placed beneath that open front window, heart thumps, and a high gear blood rushed into her ears. Where was an Marie? Anne Marie father scoured the neighborhood. A construction site at nearby University of puget sound caught his attention especially when he saw mounds of fresh dirt in piles around dishes and other excavated sites, a chill when up his spine, when he observed a teenage boy, kicking dirt into a ditch with his foot. To that kid has smirk on his face. Don Begged police to search the site which they did four days later, but by then. had been filled in. Dan Marie was never seen again what they didn't know. WAS THAT SURLY TEEN? Just could have been Ted Bundy, so he was like fourteen. Then it was known to ride a bicycle through the neighborhood and Murray's mother would later say she had not prepared her child for evil in the world they had taught her that everyone was good. But how could any mother ever prepare their eight year old child for the evil depraved twisted teen, hiding inside the package of the boy next door, the smiling handsome, mild-mannered preppy. Who all the while behind that mask was scheming how to get away with abducting sexually assaulting and murdering young girls. Say snapped that I knew that. The couldn't control them. More of these barriers have been is still. Not Enough a hold me bat with respect to. Seeking out and an army's body. I'm Caroline Gloria with Kim Shepard and this is the scene of the crime. That is a parent's worst nightmare. You think when you have your children tucked in at home cozy in their beds. At night. You lock the front door that you can go to sleep that you can turn off that little voice in in a mom's head. That is constantly worried about what could be going wrong with her children like. My kids tucked in the house is locked up for the night. The whole world has kind of gone to sleep and rest I think that's maybe the only time that I am not worried about my children with sleeping and now I've given you something to worry about right. But, I was looking up information on the likelihood of missing children being murdered, which is surprisingly unusual in like ninety nine percent of the cases when children missing, they're not killed their found. Let versus good very good, which is really good, but to the Attorney General of Washington state who conducted a study in one, thousand, nine, hundred seventy, said in seventy four percent of cases where the abducted children were killed, it happened within three hours of. Of the abduction, so is this the scenario where you hear it? We've done these stories and it's like well. We can't do a missing child report until it's been a certain amount of time. Because Ninety nine percent of the time they come back well, and that used to be the case. Those rules have really been changing in recent years. I mean think about the amber alert that you now have in place. It doesn't have to be. Be a twenty four hour situation. I think they might still have those rules for adults, but when it comes to children, the general's report, their conclusion of it was the importance of parents calling police immediately. They said the biggest problem they had was that. In most of these child abduction cases, parents would wait at least two hours before calling the police because they would think. Oh, baby, Janis, over at a friend's house, or maybe they just. Just snuck out there down the street we'll find them, and so they do a little bit of looking around I before calling authorities, and so the takeaway from this report was you call us within an hour or so much more likely to find your child, and have it be a good outcome? Well, in this case, I know that Bev she basically left the house went and spoke to. The neighbors came back in they immediately. Immediately called the police, and but that's the thing. She left the House and talk to the neighbors. I yeah not to put any blame it on whatever, but like. If there's one thing that maybe could have been done differently, it would be call the police immediately well, and I think that in this case what I didn't include that in the scene center is that they had seen a peeping Tom in the neighborhood as they were getting. Getting Information and so it's sad to say if this was Ted Bundy knowing what his Mo now is. She didn't stand a chance. Yeah, so hindsight is twenty twenty things in this case that yeah I mean. Maybe things could have been done differently, but when it comes right down to it, there's not a thing that anybody could have done. Yeah so first. Let's go back in time to start at the beginning to tell this story. Story though I had a lot of help, my sources include the documentary conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes Cairo. Seven TV ABC News, the Seattle Times and Wikipedia, so we're going way back to November twenty, four, th and nineteen forty six Theodore Robert Cowl was born to Louise and a home for unwed mothers in Vermont now Louise was twenty two, and after giving birth, she goes back home to live with their parents in Philadelphia. Philadelphia and Theodore or Ted he's raised to believe that his grandparents are his parents and that Louise is his older sister, so louise flees her parents home when he was three years old life was tough in their home, but allegedly what prompted Louise to pack up and move to Tacoma Washington was a situation where Louise's sister woke up to find her bed covered in kitchen knives with three-year-old Ted smiling at the foot of her bed. Yes three years old so crazy. Yeah, and I guess the which I'm GonNa get into in a minute, but the the grandfather. Who they were you know, he was raising Ted as his son and the grandmother was the mother, and then he thought that his real mother was actually his okay, so he was this horrible guy. Terrible grandfather, yeah, who ted later said that he identified, but that's such a zero to three I mean people could say oh well. It wasn't that long, but those are the the formative formative years yet and I was looking up I was curious about this because I know that there was a lot of rage and trauma that was happening in the family, and so I was curious about what affects childhood trauma could actually have on the development of the brain and I found this study from Dr Michael Develops. Who is with? With Duke University, and what he says, basically that those who experience a lot of childhood trauma are particularly prone to having chronic issues later in life including PTSD depression, anxiety, antisocial behavior, greater risk for alcohol and substance abuse, and the reasons for this are the changes in the brain structure that happens when you're in stressful situations, traumatic situations, your biology releases Cortisol and other hormones into your system that can not only impact your behavior in the moment, but when it's a brain that still in the process of forming can actually. How that brain forms, and make you more susceptible to having flights of anger, flights of anxiety, antisocial behaviors well and at three with the knives around the bed. Like clearly clearly, we've got issues here. So the so his mom who still believes as his sister they fleet Tacoma. Cousins for a while, so they have family, and that's what basically led them to. So it was just a really chaotic home life, but then a bright spot in early nineteen, fifty one Bundy's mom Louise Mary's a man named Johnny Bundy and Theodore is given his new stepfather's last name. Johnny is described as everything Louise's father is not caring, sweet and loving Bundy later thinks of him as an uneducated poor. You know he doesn't make a lot of money, and he's like really dismissive, even though the husband is like totally awesome and treats the. The family really well and takes them camping. You know Bundy kind of never really they have four other children together and Bundy always kinda keeps himself on the outside of it well, and that's the other thing that early childhood trauma effects is the child's ability in later, the adults ability to form connections in bonds with other people that is stunted in the brain win. You have so much early childhood trauma, so I'm not surprised that he had a hard time feeling any kind of attachment a stepfather, but I think though that we get this. This impression at least I do where it's like. We had the trauma at three up to three where it was super chaotic. The grandfather, which will get into in a minute was just completely psycho, but then he has this loving you know by all accounts, loving family, and so it gets back to that whole nature versus nurture, and you're. You're kind of like, I? You can't erase the trauma that's been done by having a nurturing family. I mean that three years of trauma changed. His biology changed his brain in a way. That can't be. Be Undone by okay well now you're around Nice people, so just stop being this PTSD, person like It just doesn't work that. Let me think about people who go to war and come home, and now you're in a loving family environment. Why can't you just move on and put that behind you? Because it's not that simple? Yeah, when it comes to the brain there still so much. We don't know, but that's what I think. That's what you and I love trying to figure out so in nineteen sixty five, though bundy graduates from. Wilson High School in Tacoma and then in the fall of nineteen, sixty five. He enrolls at the University of puget sound that same school where an Marie. Parents are convinced that Bundy buried her so I talked to collate Steiger about an Marie disappearance and presumed murder, and he says there are so many other cold cases that investigators are still trying to figure out if Bundy was responsible people `specially an I I tend to agree that he probably did that one. I've actually we actually went down to I've been to his childhood home. Ameri burs home and it's he would ride a bike and it would. It'd be about eight or ten minute bicycle ride from her. How his house to her house and then there was a a shoeprint outside her window, maybe six and he was like fourteen then, and that probably would have been about the size shoe war so I mean that's you know those type of things and. Disguise are notorious serial serial killer that didn't live far away and was known to ride his bicycle through the neighborhood, and this little girl disappeared midnight Corsi. He denied that he did it, but you know the serial killers will admit to some and not to others because. They want you know they don't want to be thought of as a child killer although. He killed Kimberly was twelve in which ultimately executed for and I think he had another twelve year old victim or something very close somewhere else, but know that's the way that's the thing is. There's a lot of cases that are ted by cases across this country that deplete agencies have no clue that it's the Ted Bundy case because it's only one murder. Murder He's he's. He drove clerk. US country went for Vermont then down to Florida and you know he was all over the place, and he didn't just and he he would have stopped. Places need probably killed all across the country and to that agency is just. It's just a single murder, right? We have this one unsolved murder. They don't have any clue. That has anything to do with Ted. Bundy Cam you'll remember the voice of our favorite detective Cloyd Steiger up him act. It's such a pleasure talking because he's so curious, he is a retired Seattle police detective, and he's the author of the books homicide. The view from inside the tape I actually just ordered that We're going on a camping trip and unlike. Can Sign. And then he also of course Seattle's forgotten serial killer Gary Gene. Grant which we did a vote on. Yes, and today, though and this is where you know. I was really happy to talk to him because today he's the chief criminal investigator of the Washington State Attorney General's homicide. Investigation tracking system and what they do is they track all murders in Washington Oregon and Montana as well as assist local agencies with homicide investigations, including cold case homicide, so he's in this deep. Yeah, and that's part of the reason why we wanted to do this case. Even though you know Ted, Bundy, everybody kind of knows who he is and what he did, and you know it's not exactly a new story, but. Cloyd has such an interesting take and has so much knowledge about the cases that might be connected to Bundy that they haven't been able to definitively say. That we really wanted to talk about Ted Bundy. Talk about these cases and talk about the ones that were. Possibly connected, but they haven't yet figured that out yet. Because I think, that is really interesting, well in another one in Washington, and this is, and it's interesting, too, because these are all before his main killing spree like these are when he is still really young. This has mainly the prequel yeah. Yes, I, mean it's. It's no joke. Like in another case, it was a huge case. In the June of nineteen sixty five included talks about this one. This chilling case that they just didn't put together I mean. How could they know to flight attendants that were. Roommates in a house in Queen Anne. and. They were asleep when somebody came into the middle of the night and bludgeoned them with a board. It's very similar to kyle mega and bludgeoned him both severely One of them died at the scene, the other actually survived because she had curlers in her hair, but she suffered brain damage, and has no recollection of the event, and so, and it was a terrible crime. And you know that's that's one over the years people have speculated. Could have done and I tend to agree that he probably did do it like I said he worked at the Safeway not too far away, and it's exactly the basically the same always come egging down in Florida. It's really incredible that they now have these cases that they think might be connected an oak. Loyd is working with this state. Wow, national database on serial killers I mean. is he able to get anywhere with these like you looking at DNA to move these cases forward to actually see if there's a connection, he brought up. How the that this particular one? There's a picture of that bloody board and they're holding it without gloves the detectives. So it's like you know, it's before nine, hundred sixty five before they, even thinking about DNA is so far away from being on the radar, but Cloyd says another interesting point about bringing up these early cases that although this is anecdotal, it's chilling because he spoke with a detective that work that case and it. Kinda shows Bundy's. And, he told me goes this guy's close to ninety years old now. You told me he was standing on this on the outside of the perimeter. When this young guy came walking up to him and say hey, what's going on here? It's a homicide. And he said can I go in. No, you can't go in. And he says the Guy said hi I'm Ted and shook his hand and walked away and he sure to this day. That was Ted Bundy. What yeah, I mean! It just shows the audacity. He had from an early age. Things that he was just bulletproof in this way. I know it is now. It was never confirmed that Bundy went to that went back to that scene of the crime that day, but it surely fits his Mo as they would later come to know was so brazen and so cocky, and any thought Naked Never Taito. Any was obviously maybe right, because it's been fifty some years later. He's still not was never charged with that case, and it isn't cleared, but that some people just are that way again. It's part of their psyche. It's not necessarily the whole killer back into crime doesn't isn't necessarily true, but just because of the way Bundy was. It sounds like exactly something he would have done. So by the fall of nineteen, sixty six. We know that he was in the area he'd moved to Seattle and is now attending the University of Washington and from one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, seven to nineteen, Sixty, eight here another bread crumb. He's in a relationship with a girl named Stephanie Brooks. Who breaks his heart and it's worth noting that she closely resembles his future victims, which is long brown hair parted in the middle in big hoop earrings. Apparently, this relationship ended because she thought he was sort of like drifting through life, and he lied and he. He shoplifted, but this break up really had an effect on Bundy and it really upset him on top of that. In early nineteen, sixty nine, he visits the town in Vermont where he was born, and he learns that he is illegitimate. Cloyd says coincidentally a woman is found murdered very nearby. He was born actually in Burlington Vermont in like a home for unwed mothers, basically, and this girl lived like right next to that home and was found murdered when he was there when he was probably. There I don't know if they linked down by so he. The he's. He's been to show him in the area when the murder happened. It's a murderer that matches them all, so they have not been able to definitively link that to him though it's still unresolved. Yeah, because you gotta understand, it's again one of the the off murders completely away from Washington, but it had the same Mo.. Beaten to death, so investigators say that Bundy another piece to this puzzle might have been fathered by his mother, Louise's abusive and violent father. Samuel cowl Oh, so we're talking incest. Yes, we are now. I remember you talking about the rage issues that his grandfather or father had. I was actually curious about this. I looked up whether or not rage is hereditary, and there is a A doctor Dr Redford Williams. WHO's the director of Behavioral Medicine? Research at Duke, university looked this, and he said you know it's been proven that prolonged periods of anger can do raise your blood pressure your Adrenalin your cortisol levels. It can damage your immune system, and essentially it like attacks your body in a way. That almost is like it's killing you when you get these really serious fits of rage. And, so he wanted to study less. What they say. Stress can kill rage. Can I mean it's all? It's all part and parcel to the same kind of emotion. And what it does to your body, so when he did his research on this, he found. There is a tiny molecular variation on a gene that is known to predict people who will have bouts of anger. Whether or not that genetic variation comes from your lineage He hasn't been able to determine. Is this genetic variation something that is like a fluke, or is it something that you get from you know your mom or your dad or whatever? He wasn't able to determine that, but he said there is definitely something in your genes that can make you more prone to fits of rage and according to this paper that I was looking at, he was hoping to do some more research to determine just how closely it can be linked to heredity well, and it sounds like Ted. Bundy could be very close to the. The Person News the ranger in the family according to Wikipedia and nineteen, eighty-seven Bundy and other family members told attorneys that Samuel cow was a Toronto bully and a bit who hated blacks. Italians Catholics and Jews beat his wife and the family dog and swung the neighborhood cats by their tails. He wants through Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping, and here's a key piece. He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences, and at least once flew into a violent rage when the question of Bundy's paternity was raised. That sounds like it was a sore subject. We'll talk about childhood trauma if he was there or if he knew about that situation. How would that impact a little kid who's two or three years old to hear your father, grandfather or whoever it may be? Angry about the fact that there your father. Yeah, I mean I get that, but I mean. Have you ever read the Glass Castle I mean it's just like the most traumatic, but wonderfully written amazing memoir, and it's like the type of abuse that kids in that story underwent and poverty and conditions like not just until they were three like ongoing i. mean it's just it's really hard to read, but it's one of those must-reads. I just have a hard time with. The nature versus nurture the I. Guess Maybe I've just read into so much. The story that I just can't even justify and I'm not saying you're justifying his actions, but it's like he makes me sick like I. Don't I just can't. You know what I mean. Yeah, just my. Desire to understand how he became the serial killer that he became is. How do we keep this from happening again? How to keep other kids from winding up in this situation that damages their brain in a way that they are prone to fits of rage, and no and I'm glad you're thinking I'm like in cavewoman mode where? I Think beyond like just retribution. What. What but I think that it's I'm so glad that we have people asking these questions and I'm glad to be talking with you about the questions. This is a great point to transition into advances. DNA technology, matter of fact I was involved in a documentary pro project. A couple years ago audion where they were because they had access to clothing and note pads from one of his previous attorneys, and they're gonNA. Have that processed for DNA to see if there were the markers of incest in his DNA. They just decided. Halfway through production that they were going to instead focus on the victims and not on him. Unless you had a sample from his grandfather, you couldn't definitely say. His grandfather was a father, but there are markers in DNA genome that show and then sexual relationship. Yeah, they had DNA they could definitely. Figure that out, but you mentioned that he moved to come up with his mom when he was three, was that his sister mom or his? That was his sister I mean that was his mom, who who he thought was his sister when he was three, and he moved to coma. Did he think he was moving with his sister? I think so. That's weird. Yeah, but doesn't make sense to me it doesn't I mean I? Looked I looked because to me on. That was a point whereas like, wait a second. It seems like because especially when the his stepfather adopts him, there's inconsistencies, but you heard Cloyd saying he didn't find out until later, and that's basically the narrative from all the stuff that I've read is that he really didn't find out that his sister was actually his mother until later Serious case denial, but okay, I mean it was and that's why he was really upset and angry that he was kept in the dark this whole time. Yeah I mean I, could I could definitely see where you know. Aside from the fact that the childhood trauma of having this father slash grandfather, who had this rage was violent, and perhaps mentally ill in more ways than. Than One, that would be traumatic enough, but then to find out that you've also been lied to and Yeah I. Mean That's that's a lot it's it's definitely a lot. But what was interesting cloyd and I had continued that conversation. When you think about what does it mean to know if incest runs in your family, but and that's I. Mean, that's not an excuse. But. He had a lot of deep anger about lot of stuff. WHO HAS UPBRINGING? He went back to Vermont to the unwed mothers home where he was born, and then incidentally while he's there later. This girl is in the house. Next door is murdered. I mean the guy's lashing out losing control. Angry upset and I. Don't know how far you want to go with this discussion, but one thing that stuck with me from class on cultural anthropology was the idea of taboo. Yeah, every culture in the world has some things that are taboo and one thing that crosses cultural boundaries. Almost two hundred percent of the world is taboo against incest. Yeah, it's up there with cannibalism I. Think clearly it's happening a lot more than people want to admit. I mean look at that case that we did with the emery. Brothers and people don't want to talk about it, so the interesting thing about taboos is that they do two things they do minimize that behavior, so if there's a taboo against incest, society says incest is bad. People are generally pressured not to do it, and let's be honest. Most people don't really want to. To do it anyway, but when it does happen, no one wants to admit it. No one wants to talk about it. It's hidden. It's put in a closet shoved into the back and nobody wants to so taboo. It's like a catch twenty two where it's like well. Yeah, it makes people less likely to do that behavior, but it also makes it more likely that if they do the behavior. It's going to be hidden. It's going to be you know secretive. No one's going to want to talk about it or admit to it. And so it's weird in a way that it it works both kind of beneficially and non beneficial if It feeds on itself. Yeah, what about the DNA aspect would you want to know if you had a marker for incest, or would you rather not know it depends on? What would you do with that information? Is it something that would be helpful to you later on in life like for your medical benefit? Is there a reason that you would need to know that or Can't have any of the information if somebody said to you Kim I, have your your profile here? Do you want to know if you have incest in your family or not? You know. Do you WanNa? Take the red or the Blue Pill. I mean I it. Just. It's so much depends on the situation I in my case, I think I think everybody's different. Yeah, I don't think I'd want to know. I think I would if I was still in contact with any of the people that might have been involved. Hell Yeah. Well or just stay away from them I mean if if they're capable of that I, would wanna know so so I wouldn't bring my children around them. So it depends well. I. Think in the future they will. Probably we can send off an me one two three or whatever on. Like I think in the future. You know that that's that's coming up. You know so. We'll see but anyway back to the fall of Nineteen sixty-nine. We go and Bundy is at U. DUB and he begins a long term relationship with Lindsey with Liz. Kendall who has a young daughter, so in Nineteen, seventy and nineteen from the years of nineteen seventy. Seventy to nineteen seventy-two. He is seriously living this double life. He was active in politics and also worked at the suicidal hotline with the famous true crime, writer and rule who worked alongside him? I mean at the time. She wasn't famous she was you know she was just? She was just an yeah. He was my partner at the crisis clinic in Seattle. And every month every Sunday and every Tuesday night Ted Bundy and I were locked up all night long alone together in this big Victorian Mansion in the highest crime district of Seattle. And we were saving lives, and he would walk me to my car when I left it three or four in the morning. And say and please be careful in the way home. Lock your doors I don't want anything bad to happen to you. He was sympathetic. Hit a gentle voice. He was so understanding, and he was good at keeping people alive, and would later go on to write the stranger beside me about her time with Bundy and Bundy also graduates from with a degree in psychology from the U. Dub, and one could say that he wanted to use that knowledge to manipulate not only his victims, but the world who, in their wildest dreams could not imagine their friends family member Co.. Co worker who he really was, but basically Bundy had been educating himself on law enforcement for a long time he was studying how the police caught killers, probably to be titillated, but also to understand so this was before his first known murder. Well, nobody no see that's the thing. He flew under the radar so long and he's trying to maintain this normal life, but that's the thing is. It makes me think like he's already been killing people yeah. Own Killing. He's like okay. I better. Make sure that I'm doing this right if I want to keep doing this so that I don't get caught Oh. Yeah, that's been his. He's been doing that for a long time, but it's even more reason to think that some of these previously unconnected cases could be connected. Yeah, and the degree in psychology. Like yeah, you know he's. He's picking. You know he's A. A quick study on how to maintain a normal life while he's a killing machine driving a Volkswagen bug, he fit into his surrounding so well. Most people had no idea they had Predator in their Mitts, and in November nineteen, seventy-three, he ab- ducks and murders. Kathy divined from a street and Seattle. Her body is later found near Olympia and I'm including all of the the murders here just to kind of. Of Give you a chronology of of how rampant he is and brazen. He is in January nineteen seventy four attacks. Joni Lens in her apartment in Seattle. Amazingly she survives in February of that year. Bundy abducts and strangles Linda and healy from her basement apartment in the district. Now she is a well. She is well known in the community for giving the Weekday Ski Report on the radio so these bodies. Bodies again. It's like in different places. A couple of Martin Seattle or few of them are in Seattle in March of Nineteen seventy-four Bundy murdered Donna Gail Manson a student at Evergreen State College now that's in Olympia. Her body was never recovered. So imagine this bug is driving all over all over the Pacific northwest and I just hear the engine I know, don't you? Everyone would know it was coming. But see that's the that's the saddest part of all. They wouldn't know it was coming. There would know what was coming. They would know it was coming out. In April nineteen, seventy four, so one a month. He abducts and kills Susan Elaine. Ran Court a student at central Washington. University, that's an ELLENSBURG. May Nineteen seventy-four Bundy abducted Roberta. Kathy Parks from Oregon State University he claimed, was sexually assaulted and killed her at Taylor. Mountain, what wait a minute. Yeah, more than twenty five miles southeast of Seattle and where I am going. As soon as we get done recording this so Mike, are you? Worst. Horse I ride Taylor. Mountain will describe Taylor Mountain because that's one of his dumping ground. I mean if you're familiar with cougar out cougar about what does. Tiger, mountain, I looked it up because I thought. Did they right this wrong note? Tiger Mountain, so if you're familiar tiger mountain basically Taylor. Mountain is the backside of Tiger Mountain. It's almost like its little brother where you have highway eighteen that runs in between the two so to the west side of highway eighteen is Tiger Mountain and to the east side of highway eighteen is Taylor mountain and Taylor mountain like tiger. Mountain is completely evergreen trees yards. The I can see very secluded, and I can imagine back in the seventies. It was even more secluded than it is now. Now, and now there isn't anything up there. It's one of the largest trail systems in the area in the King County kind of Western. Washington area and that that's why so many people go horseback riding up. There is because there isn't anything up there, and it's just really all trails and wilderness, so June, first nineteen seventy-four Bundy abducted Brenda Carol Ball from Burien. Her skull was later found at Taylor Mountain, so it's like you can see the pattern here where he's abducting them from a certain place, and then bring them to a completely different place. Yeah, that's nowhere near. You probably an hour. Oh, no, well in. Olympia has like three hours away from Seattle Oregon State. University have a bug. He's committed here and he has a plan. And where does he put his victims in that bug driving them around in the back seat, going to explain this so in June eleventh, nineteen, seventy four bundy would later describe years later probably right before he was to be executed, he would describe to Robert Capelle. He was the original Seattle detective assigned to catch him how he hunted and killed Georgeanne Hawkins, pulling one of his ruses that he would become infamous for an alley near her U. DUB Sorority House. Moving up the alley. Using! A briefcase. In some crutches! And a young woman walked down. About halfway down the block. I encountered her. And asked her to help me carry the briefcase. which she did, we won't back up the alley. Basically reached the car. What happened was I. Knocked her. Unconscious, With a crowbar. and. Handcuffed put her in the driver's. I mean the passenger side of the car. Drove away. Thing that makes it. Among the things that makes it difficult at this point. She was quite lucid talking about things. It's funny, it's. Funny, but it's odd the things people say an. Under those circumstances and She had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had. Taken her to? Help, to to make I banished test. Long short of it was. That I again, not unconscious. The, Girls head was. severed. Up The road of. Twenty five fifty yards. At buried in a location about ten yards west of the. Rocky also. By this time, it was almost dawn. On this particular morning. I was just absolutely. Again just shocked and scared to death shot horrified about. Went down the road throwing the briefcase, the the crutches road. Just tossing out the window and the crow everything Anka's everything. I get mad at myself two weeks later because they'd have to go buy another pair. Not Comical, but that's what when. This was just. I was in a state of panic of just absolute horror. You know it's like at that point time. Consciousness of what has really happened to psych. He break out of a fever or something. I would add is and so I would I drove. Talk about details coming back. I couldn't find one of the shoes. So. I thought it was there. But it wasn't. So I went back. This is this is. My bicycle road back to the parking lot I knew there are police all over the place by that time. So it may parthenon found both pierced ears. Pierced earrings and the shoe link in the parking lot. Hawaii surreptitiously gathered them up. So. They are. That's Ted. Bundy right yeah voice. Yes, what is he on because? He sounds like he is on some serious medication during that I'm. Probably like lithium or something, I have no idea but to me. It's like the other thing I noticed is that he started to get more lucid and coherent as he was talking about the details of the crime, not the details of luring her, but the details of what he did after he got her well and was interesting in that interview. When you listen to the whole unedited, that was an edited version of it, but you have the detective asking questions trying to have him admit to sexually assaulting her all night in the woods, and he just wouldn't go there. He just. Wouldn't you know he? He would always say these things, and and as I. I was listening to all these different interviews taped interviews of his confessions later like I mean the guys about ready to die. I mean if you're hearing something in his voice, it's fear. It's you know all of his emotions, so it just sounds like he's given up. He sounds like he has just given up. And you know why even bother drawing another breath. He's still at that point bargaining for his life. He's wanting to get that. He did not want to die up until the very end. He did not want to die, but he would always want. He had to be in control of everything in these interviews like he didn't want to admit. How he had sexually assaulted them all night long what he had done how he had done it. He ever admit to sexually assaulting any of his victims. He did to some of them, but he couldn't go into, and this isn't to go into detail. What tell us all the gory details, but but it's like I. Think it's. If he's willing to admit to certain things and not others like. Yes, why is he willing to admit to this horrific crime, but not sexual assault which I mean also is horrific, but. It's not worse than matter. And that's what cloyd was saying. Some of these guys will admit to some, but won't admit to others. No matter what it almost makes me wonder about the idea of the way that he came into the world and the incest and the situation with his mom slash, sister and father slash grandfather. If? There wasn't some kind of sexual deviancy. Maybe, he felt like a don again. Grasping at straws, trying to understand the minor killer, which is impossible, but I wonder if it could have been something where he could admit to rage, she could admit to murder, but the idea of admitting to sexual deviancy was just something he couldn't do because of his history to his interviews where he's like he'll, he'll gloss over and he's like well. You know we don't have time now to go into those deeper. Deeper caverns and you can tell he's trying to control control the narrative control. The situation I mean who knows like what some people think is perfectly normal that I'm a complete Weirdo and other people think like you know what I mean. It's like I think it's the individual person where they're shameless boundary lines, are we? You know what that's. The interesting part is that how used himself how? He views his crimes how he views his his personality. Choices, it's not about whether. This is right or wrong or good or bad, or did he do it, or did he not do it? It's about how does he view himself? And how does his perception of himself affect his choices that he makes, and it's and it? It helps to know like that's why this was a long cut to include. It showcases his Mo. how he loved to game the system. A former friend explained Bundy was watching a news report about one of his murders and this was. was before he was caught, and he bragged to his friend there right there. He said that he would know how to get away with killing someone. He explained you pick the woman up in one county. Throw away her clothes in another and leave her body in another county, because different counties would mean law enforcement was less likely to talk with one another, and so that he was so right. I mean we've seen this hour. Cases covered up until this point anything that happened before. Let's say two thousand. Chances are very good at the agencies. We're not talking to each other. Yes, and up. Until this point his Mo and the police are not making the connections to one suspect or person of interest in all these murders. That will change in July, Nineteen, seventy four. When Bundy's compulsions are ramping up and would lead to mistakes so every summer. There's a fun event on the shores of Lake. Sammamish state park which is really close to Taylor Mountain, folks, young and old would gather to play games and have fun. Bundy was there for a different reason trolling for young women to sexually assault torture and murder this time he had his arm in a sling, pretending to be injured and needed help loading his sailboat onto his vehicle. So, in separate incidents, Janice ought and Denise Naslund were. From Lake, Sammamish State Park. He was a cunning Schemer, but he made mistakes in this brazen killing of two young women at Lake managed between the hours of ten am and four thirty PM. When police investigated, they talked to someone who heard Janice ought say hi, I'm Jan and the preppy looking man with a distinctive sling shorts and button-down shirt replied. Hi, I'm Ted, so he gave his real name. The last time she was seen was pushing her bike as he walks alongside her, so witnesses are now able to give a composite sketch, and the man's car is a Tan Volkswagen bug. Each lead has to be followed. Every phone call has to be made mostly. Some out with a speck of information that may someday help clear up the mystery of the whereabouts of genocide. And Denise Naslund so. This is a cut from ABC, and what's really intriguing and I don't want to say great, but they finally have people and leads to chase down and try to figure out. What happened, they still haven't connected these two crimes to the other women, but they at least have a situation where they can start piecing together some pieces here. I also think it's interesting that he killed two women relatively same place same time. It's like he wants people to figure out that he's a serial killer. Because if you just had killed one woman at Lake Sammamish, likely the police again would. Would think this is a one off. Maybe not connected with any other cases I think it's both it's two things. He's both brazen and thinks he's smarter than everybody. Yeah, and to he is becoming unhinged with his compulsions. It's all he thinks about he's you know he's getting further away from this dual life. He's two sides of a coin. He knows how to pretend, but now these lives are. Splitting you know he can't control it like he did. And in an interview later when Bundy was asked about the murders of Ott and Naslund, he told investigators that ought was still alive when he kidnapped Naslund and one was forced to watch as he murdered the other. There's something about the idea of like him wanting to get caught. Yeah, real secret. He wants to see how close to the edge. He can get pull back like how close can I get to them figuring out? It's me without actually being caught. You know, but that's going to be his downfall. I mean the thing for sure right there that I keep hearing that I'm wondering about is he keeps using. Using this VW bug serial killer one. Oh, one switch things up, so they don't connect your crimes. And here he is using the same vehicle over and over and over again so in September of one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, four, the body parts of ought, and NASLUND and Hawkins are recovered two miles from Lake Sammamish in a wooded area after the Spanish killings Bundy knew he wanted to keep killing young women, he would need to move to another state where they weren't looking for a suspect named Ted who drove a VW bug, so he moves to Utah and guess what happens fall of Nineteen, seventy, four, Bundy Anders, the University of UTAH. Law School and in October. October of that same year Bundy Murdered Melissa Smith and Laura Amy in November of Nineteen, seventy four. He's messes up again. He tries to abduct Carol Ranch from a shopping mall and here is a newscast explaining what happened during that time Carol Garage parked a car and this parking lot at the fashion mall shortly after began what she now calls her personal nightmare bundy posing as a police officer approaches a young garage. He tells her that they've apprehended. A suspect was trying to break into her car. He said they would have to go down to the main. Murray Police Department to sign a complaint. The ranch entered the abductors car. She jumped out of the car the. The man jumped out waiting. What looked like a crowbar? She broke loose ran to the street, flagged down a passing car, and an elderly couple drove ranch to the Murray police station. The search for her doctor began. It's so funny the style of it you can tell what era is he just kind of cool I mean well. It was from a different time. People are not used to these types of crimes back then they have described it so much in Washington. Has Seattle in Washington was known. It's like no crime matter where they've wrong. How many serial killers did we have under wraps that we didn't know about? Yeah, yeah, but there's still this. These are shocking. And then again back to his obsession, he fails to get killed ranch and then that same day. He abducts Debbie Kent From Her School and Bountiful and kills her. But botching the abduction of Ranch Utah is now looking for Durant kidnapper. They don't know anything about Ted Bundy they, but she does have a description, and of course the car did he call himself Ted again. She didn't even get that far. Okay, yeah, I don't think I don't think so, but can I. Put out there to that like if you're a detective looking to help somebody out. You're probably not driving a VW bug, but we'll, and that's what she said the way she did smell his breath, which made her suspicious, but then when she saw his car, she was like Oh. He's undercover. So these things that we knew to kind of like our hackles are raised, but we kinda talk. Try to talk ourselves out of it. We don't. Think that people are that evil, or we WANNA see the best in people a lot of times we'll yeah, and and I think he was so quick about it the second she was in his car and they were driving and she was like. Hey, wait a second. The police stations over there. He's starting to try to handcuff her and there's no door handle I. mean they were up against a seasoned killer by this point? The abduction of Durant Utah is now looking for her attempted abductor. Bundy looks for victims in a new killing field trolling ski resorts in Colorado. Where of course he's going to fit in okay, but a VW bug is like the worst vehicle to use at ski resorts in Colorado Yes, but he's GonNa fit right in, and there's people from all different states that come to ski resorts, and he's just gonNA slide right in right under the the you know the radar in March, Nineteen seventy-five. He abducts Karen Campbell from a hotel in Aspen Colorado. Her body is found a month later in February so now March, nineteen, seventy five Bundy abducted and killed a ski instructor named Julie Cunningham from Vail Colorado. was never found. April nineteen seventy five Bundy killed Denise Lynn Oliver Son from Grand Junction Colorado. He said he left her body in the Colorado River, but but she was never recovered, may nineteen seventy five bucks kidnapped and drowned Lynette. Don Culver his youngest victim twelve in a bathtub, then later said he discarded her body in the Snake River and her remains have never been found I. do want to point out that Grand Junction and Vail. The Ski Resorts are several hours away from each other. So he is in his driving. And? He supposed to be in law school at this time and so there notably, he's like missing a lot of school and gets warnings that hey you know you're gonNA fail. My Class I'M NOT GONNA. Let you take the test. And he goes in Chm uses the his law professor, and so he goes back to Utah in between to take these classes Oh. Yeah, he's still. He's still at the university on striving. Yes, he's driving obsessing. He's like a shark so June. Nineteen seventy five, he kidnaps and kills Susan Curtiss Fifteen, and she was at Byu at a youth. Youth conference I mean she's in middle school in July nineteen, seventy five, he abducts and Kills Shelly Robertson from Golden Colorado three days later he abducts and Kills Nancy Barrick from Layton Utah, but on August Sixteenth nineteen seventy five bucks. Luck runs out Utah Police Sergeant Bob Hayward notices. Bundy's Tan nineteen. Sixty eight Volkswagen parked outside of a home at three am and Sergeant Hayward knew there were two young women that live there. When Hayward Approach Bundy took off like a bat out of hell, and of course sergeant hayward gave chase eventually pulling him over and after a brief struggle. He made a chilling discovery while searching that car earlier. You'd asked me about what he does and how he does it. The passenger seat was out of Bundy's car, so it was gone and he's like what's up with your passenger seat and he's like Oh. You know it's broken, so he had removed it completely, and he saw that Bundy, and he did not know this, but his kill kit, which was there which included an icepick handcuffs, a ski mask pantyhose with holes cut for the an is in a mouth. Gloves rich sheet flashlight trash bags I mean it was just like a horrible scene. It's like a serial killers. Yeah, it's as being intricate. It's hard to believe that. The sergeant didn't put those pieces together, or did he well they started to. He brought Bundy in for evading for evading arrest, but he got bailed out the next day, but unable to shake bad experience hayward. Talk to the sheriff who happened to be his brother. Then they talked to detectives who thought Bundy and his VW sounded familiar. And you know they starting to put the pieces together. They reach out to Washington state where they found out. That bundy or Ted was on a shortlist of suspects for murders in Washington, and that the murders had coincidentally stopped when bundy relocated to Utah, so in October, nineteen, seventy-five Bundy was identified in a lineup by Carol garage the one that got away he was arrested and charged with aggravated kidnapping and attempted criminal assault. He was held in Salt Lake County jail, but he gets out of bail and in February thousand, nine, hundred, ninety six. He Kills Debbie Smith and Utah. And here Bundy is in the spotlight for the first time in his trial so up until this point. He's maintaining this double life. Although it's teetering toward, you know his obsessions and he's still in law school. He's still in law school. Yeah, but during this trial for the kidnapping attempt of of garage he comes out and talks the media, and he's like a pompous prince wrongly accused. How do you feel about the justice system based on your? Real I'm sure it works. You've gotTA. Have faith it'll worker lsu deal be reduced to some kind of you. Know Mumbling, idiot I believe it works I believe it needs to be improved when you mentioned improvements. Does that mean ultimately you want to get involved in the criminal justice. Yes I intend to complete my legal education and become a lawyer and Be a damn good lawyer. He's like this preening. Prima, Donna, he's laughing at everyone. He's laughing at the system. He's laughing at the sergeant and everyone who's trying to put him behind bars. He's laughing at his victims. It just to me feels like he is laughing at the entire world, but he's getting away with US fortunately. Bundy insisted on testifying on his own behalf and came across surprise surprise as an arrogant asshole. And, he was convicted of never a truer word, so he was convicted of the kidnapping charge on March, first he was sentenced to a minimum of one to a maximum of fifteen years in Utah State prison, but this was just the beginning as I said before Washington Colorado and Utah were getting on the same page, and the consensus was that Bundy was looking good for all the murders that were going on of young women, but how to prove it. One WAY COMBING THROUGH HIS VW Utah investigators found hairs around the stick shift of the Volkswagen. Of Victims From Colorado and Utah which gave them enough. For them to file charges against him on October. Nineteen seventy six now, this was before DNA though So, how were they able to connect the hair to the victims? Was it just like a type matching was like type matching whatever they had to say. Yeah, this is the wasn't DNA, but it was enough to say yes. Hairs belong to. It was probably that plus other circumstantial. The kill the cat joke. It's probably one of those where they could prove. He was in the area. They could prove. That hair, just kind of was the tipping point of Oh. Yeah, okay, slightly the tipping point, and it was enough for them to file charges on the first degree murder of Karen. Campbell and he was transferred to Colorado. In January nineteen, seventy, seven, Bundy was transferred to Aspen. And remember in the kidnapping case in Utah he had an attorney representing him, but in Colorado. He was assisting in his defense, which gave him access to the law library that was upstairs, and the judge ordered that he was free to use the library, and was not to be shackled or handcuffed. Essentially, he was free to move about, and he escaped in June nineteen, seventy seven. He literally jumped out of the second story window. Of the courthouse. On June Thirteenth Nineteen, seventy seven. Bundy is caught in Aspen. Over the next six months he start losing a bunch of weight, but he scheming again. It's not because he feels guilt for what he's done. He scheming to escape sitting in his jail cell. He realizes that if he removes the ceiling light, and if he loses enough weight, he can actually fit through. So, he makes his way through the crawlspace to the jailer's apartment near his cell, he jumps down into the the apartment. Knowing that the you know, the jailer isn't going to be there. He puts on regular clothes and escapes and had a twelve hour lead before they realized he was in the wind. Talk about all the things that we've talked about before about how he has obsessions. He was wanted to do whatever he wanted to. Because he could have dropped off the face of the earth, but he chose not to do that. He boarded a plane flew to Chicago then he took a train to Ann Arbor Michigan and then for the next leg of the journey he stole a car and drove to Atlanta and then took a bus to Tallahassee Florida. He signed a rental agreement at a building, called the oaks, and began his next reign of terror that he would later refer to as his barbaric state within two months while on the run, he would attack five people murdering three of them. On January Fifteenth Nineteen Seventy eight three M. Bundy, crept inside the Chi Omega. Sorority house near Florida State. He savagely beat and strangled Margaret. Bowman and Lisa lead to death Karen and Chandler and Kathy Kleiner suffered severe injuries after he bludgeoned them while they slept, but they survived on that same day Bundy broke into the apartment. Of Cheryl. Thomas, a student, at Fsu, and he attacked her Bundy took off when her roommate's heard noise and called out to her when she didn't answer, they called police and Thomas survived. The attack but Bundy was in the wind again. On, February. Ninth Nineteen Seventy Eight. He abducts twelve year old Kimberly, Leach from her school in Lake City Florida Leach was one of Bundy's youngest victims. It was his last murder. On February fifteenth, Nineteen Seventy Eight. He is pulled over by the Pensacola police officer sees a man at one thirty, a m driving a stolen Volkswagen in Pensacola. He what he went back to the bus. Ie. Him and the bugs. I. Don't know but obviously. I know it's like one of the. It's like a compulsion. He can't help himself. I mean obviously, but it's funny that that would be one of his compulsions. Yeah, so they take him into. Custody was at Tan. Okay, but for the next two days Bundy refuses to give his name, and they don't know who they're dealing what they have. NO IDEA I mean we're talking. Florida's not whole Mo, they even have fingerprinting at this point, yeah! I think so. Yeah. They're gonNA eventually. Figure out. It's him even if he doesn't yeah, finally he gives his name as Theodore Robert, Bundy and he's probably all like you know just cocky as hell and just thinks he's so great, but in short order the Florida police would find that Bundy. Only a week earlier had been put on there. The FBI's ten most wanted list. And interesting again we see Ted. Bundy's Deatrich in July of nineteen seventy eight when he's in custody and it was just a really weird exchange like bundy comes out of the elevator, and he doesn't have any handcuffs on or anything like that, and he stands like right by the sheriff, as the Sheriff read the indictment and the Chi Omega murders. It's just weird. We Kim with. Invite! Onto Religion, aren't you? Ain't got into. The bond told me that told him you're going to get me. You said he was GonNa get okay you've got the indictment. Is All you'RE GONNA get? Three to go. Theodore Robert Bounding. Charged indictment counts burglary to counts murder in the first degree. Three counts attempted murder in the first degree. Vine intent to affected out the Fed lethally my chance to talk to the press contrary to section seven eighty, two more batch it. I'll plead not guilty right now. Yeah, wow, yeah, it was really bizarre. Wouldn't the sheriff be like? Get him out of here. I think that I think that was everybody's question. Even during that during that time like, why would you why? Why would you do this? I mean it just didn't really make sense, but again so many things about Ted Bundy and what he's allowed to do and gets away with could be also that the sheriff knows Bundy's. GonNa make an ass out of himself and wants the whole world to see this guy for who he truly is. I don't know, I mean th. That's a that's a cop is half full. Yeah, I. Mean I feel like you've probably got game to by Bundy as much as I hate to say it. I don't want to give him any credit, but I mean it just makes them both look like what so Bundy went on trial for two counts of first degree murder. As you heard this time. He's representing himself and this is where it just gets, so we'll for a client. Yeah, and it's it's. It's strange because he's referring to himself in the third person calling himself Mr Bundy. Watching court videos from that time, it's surreal. He's like prancing around court talking to the judge like he's a seasoned lawyer wearing tweed jacket a button down shirt, deep blue. It's a deep blue shirt. The kind with a huge lapels over a white. Seattle Mariner sweater. It's sort of playful. Not I guess to his Washington routes. I mean he's not acting like I mean these are serious crimes that you know or have major consequences. There's the death penalty in Florida. There's not the death penalty in Washington like why he chose to go and. And murder there I mean some have to wonder. Why was earlier? It's his connection with Florida I. Don't know so the other thing that I've been thinking about as you've been. Sharing the information about his behavior is the fact that he did have that degree in psychology. I wonder if there's something to the the idea that if you act like somebody who is guilty of these crimes, you're more likely to be found guilty, whereas if you act like this is so ludicrous. There's no way that I did these things. Maybe people would buy into that. Maybe that's why he was acting so strangely and. flippant about the charges I think it's all with his dynamic that we've seen all along before. If, you, look at that, and there weren't all these heinous crimes that he's now. People are like Yeah I. He could have done I mean for a long time. There's so many people that knew him that were like. There's no way that he did this. Even though they talked about Ted with a with Tan Volkswagen, so many people in Washington new, there's a Ted with Volkswagen. They still couldn't believe that so many Volkswagen's today there was it. It was like his persona was larger than life. Well, another twist in this very twisted case is how many women would flock to the trial addressed to the nines and many dressed as his type. Because by this time he is like a media sensation. Everybody's talking about it. They know that he has a predilection for women with long hair Brown. Hair parted down the middle with hoop earrings, and there's a name for this bizarre phenomenon. It's called. Failure and was interesting here is he ended up proposing to one of his fans Karel? Boone and she came to testify on his behalf as a character witness. So He's says do you WanNa marry me, yes, do I wanNA marry you. Yes, and what is the last question? And he said something and I really do I do really do? WanNa marry. You. Wow, that's so romantic, so even more. Another you know they're not supposed to be able to have sex? According to you know because he is a suspect and it has escaped twice. Yeah, but at some point they end up consummating their marriage, and she conceived a child name Rose Bundy during one of her visitations. How would you like to be that child? I you know what I mean I changed my name. I'm sure she does. I mean what a legacy to give your kid. You want to go on to have your life, but it's like you can't be president. You can't be you know. There's so many things that are preordained I mean they could be. Society wouldn't let them. That's the thing. It's going back to the taboo of it. Your Dad's a serial killer. Could any of that have been passed along to you? Because if there's even a possibility, no one's going to want to have anything to do with you. Yeah, yeah, so it's interesting though I thought you'd like this one of Bundy's attorneys, former attorneys, John, Henry Browne, which yes. Yes so he's a prominent Seattle attorney who briefly worked with Bundy and he described Bundy's folly, and taking the stand as a fatally narcissistic miscalculation in his book the Devil's defender. Quote Ted believed he could lie has way out of anything and could charm. The judge writes Brown. He was wrong so what we were talking about earlier. Why was he doing this? Why was he acting all flippant and like you know leaning into his like? Than Life Personas good boy, next door, kind of thing, good natured guy and I never do these horrible things. Yeah, so in May nineteen, seventy-nine Bundy actually rejected a plea deal that would have allowed him to avoid the death penalty if he admitted to murdering Bowman Levin and Leach. He didn't take it I think he thought that he could get somehow. Get Away with it. On July? Twenty, fourth nineteen seventy-nine, and later in February nineteen, eighty to Florida juries would convict Bundy. Counts of first degree murder and later he was convicted for another first degree charge for murder of the Levy Bowman and leach murders before he was sentence. The judge asked if he wanted to say anything. About asking for mercy. Pr- I find it somewhat. Absurd! Ask Mercy for something I, did not do. So I will be tortured for and will suffer for. And receive a pain for that. But. Share the. He is the victim here. And fortunately he didn't get mercy. Citing this average jury of the crimes and Bundy's callous attitude scored independent of but in agreement with. If I ever sentence rendered by the jury is hereby imposed only. Upon the defendant. Theodore Robert Bunn. Then in a shocking statement, the same judge Edward Coward added this. Young Man, thank you. SAY THAT! It's a tragedy for this to see such a total waste. Humanity that I've experienced in this court year. BRIGHT YOUNG MAN! You may have good lawyer. I'd love to head you. Practice in front of. You want another way. That's disgusting and disturbing and I almost feel like that judge should be disbarred for showing any sense of humanity to somebody who's committed such awful crimes. I understand his way of thinking and why he might have had those thoughts, but it's totally inappropriate to express them out loud especially in a public setting where there's recording happening just so inappropriate so disrespectful to the victims and their families yeah, incredible, well the fact that he even though he'd seen all the evidence in everything had been charmed by Bundy. I mean that's basically what happened there. Even after everything that he'd seen I think the judge may have been a little bit like me where he wants to understand how bunny became this person when he was a smart guy when he was. You know kind of an all American kid. I mean that's where I had to stop you earlier in it because I'm normally like so with you on that like trying to understand why people do what they. They do but in this particular case after getting beginning to end and listening to the cuts and listening and listening in this case, it's more of like. How can we stop this but I don't there was no way of stopping it right? And there's a time and a place for that kind of reflection. The courtroom immediately after he convicted is not the time and or the place every time I hear that. Why would he say that I would love to go back and deal to ask him, but he's probably not around anymore. No probably not okay, so bundy finally starts admitting to stuff trying to save his own neck so while on death row. Bundy gives a series of interviews and he reached out to other serial killers. He wanted to get pen pals. He even contacted I don't know if you'll remember this, but when we did the green. River killer case contacted detective record at the time, who then later became the king? County Sheriff and ultimately caught Gary Ridgway. But anyway he reached out to him and said that he could help him catch the river man like he, you know. Reichert would later describe that he felt like you know Bundy was almost like jealous of the attention that the Green River killer was getting I could also see where he might want to try to get a hold of some of the crime scene evidence, some of the pictures and things so that he could live vicariously through this person who was still going out committing crimes murders very similar to what? What he would do, but one of the things that was interesting that he he really recommended that the King County Sheriff's office stakeout one of the places where they found the bodies, because he was sure that ridgway would go back or the Green River killer, because they didn't know who it was at the time would go back and gauge Necrophilia, and it's interesting because during that time when he's trying to bargain for his life and talking to different investigators, and he explains the necrophilia part which he engaged in. Bed the next day because those three days later to do that the business. About there. was sort of a crude attempt to disguise identity densification of the remains such I don't know what it wasn't. Retrospect it doesn't it sounds pretty incoherent, but that's. Motivating you. and then. Maybe about a week to two weeks later went bad for. Again just to see what was going on. But of course after you know in June after a week, it's you know what with all the local. Wildlife, there's not much. Left. You know a lot of psychological stuff going on here that we just don't have time for I. Mean we just different days explaining? This is why I am so keen on the sticking out of crime scenes this type. Fascination with the. Sea wouldn't come right out and say what he was doing to the bodies. He has to control how he shares it the. Right, now I know it over going back after a week or more after this person's been murdered, left out in the wild, who knows what animals have come along and take bits and pieces. I just it's shocking to me that he would still be interested in wanting to go back to the crime scene because I'm sure it happened more than once that he did this Oh. Yeah, so he knew going in what it would look like, and he still wanted to go back and be a part of that. Yeah, it's just it's mind blowing me. Yeah I mean I. think that that's why he wants to control it because he knows that nobody's going to really understand except for someone like a ridgeway. You know and that's why he can tell some of it to get attention. You know he's got. He's GonNa talk a little bit to keep people interested in him and you know he doesn't want to confess to these things. It's a way to try to get him off the hook of this upcoming. He's in Florida, but he's trying to save his neck, so he starts talking more. January twenty first nineteen eighty-nine over the course of several days, Bundy confesses to multiple agents from different agencies. He tells the FBI agent Bill Hag Meyer. He's killed thirty people in California Oregon Washington Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Florida between nineteen, seventy, three in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy eight, but by you know January twenty third. It's not changing the course that's already happening. He's had a couple of stays of execution, which bought him a little bit more time, but time has has run out in his last interview the night before his. His execution, he spoke with Doctor James Dobson and is going all out for a Hail Mary, because you got to remember, two of the stays of execution happened, one was fifteen hours before, and the other was like seven hours, so he's really still not doing this for the victims. He's still doing this. I mean from from my point of view himself. He's still thinks he's got a shot down another stay, so he doesn't. He says he doesn't want to die, but pornography was a factor in what made him what he was. Trying to tell you is honestly as I know how what happened think. This, is a message to get across, but as a young. A young boy and I mean the boy of. Twelve or thirteen certainly. That I encountered outside the home again In. The local grocery store or the local? Drugstore the softcore pornography. What people call softcore? but as I think I, explained to you last night, thought adoption. An anecdote is young boys. Do we explore the? The back roads and sideways and byways of our neighborhood, and oftentimes people don't. The garbage in whatever they're cleaning out of their house and Fontana time we come across, so he's like we. He's like normalising it. Who comes across pornographic books and they were looking for l., but even if you're looking for it, it's. Just dump on the side of the road. Apparently, he had a neighbor things I did lieutenant magazines. More involved violence. Yes, yes, and I and this is something I. Think I want to emphasize the the the the most damaging. Kinds of pornography in my again. I'm talking from personal experience. hard real personal experience. Most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involve violence in sexual violence. Because the wedding, those two forces as an Italian, though only too well brings up behavior that is just. Is just. Too. Terrible to describe, now walk me through that. What was going on in your mind at that thought okay before we go any further I think it's important to me. and. The people people believe what I'm saying to tell you that that I'm not blaming. Pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do certain things and I take certain things if whatever I've done. Not The question here. The question and and and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and shape the kinds of violent behavior. Feel you're. In the beginning at fuels, this kind of Thought, process then. At a certain time, it's instrumental in what I would say. Crystallizing it making into something, which is almost like a separate entity inside. And that that point you're Virgil I was at the verge of acting out on this on this kind of. These kinds of really won't understand that. You had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life with printed material. And you made or printed and video or Film. Is What happened? And and then there was the urge to take that little step or big step over to physical. Happens it happened in stages gradually. It doesn't necessarily not to me at least happened overnight my experience with. A say pornography generally, but with pornography the deals on a violent level with sexuality. is it. Once, you become addicted to it and I look at this kind of addiction. Like other kinds of addiction of addiction, you keep I would keep looking for. More potent more explicit most Greg. Of Material like an addiction, he craving something, which is harder, okay? Can we just be done? Can't even listen to him anymore. It's so ridiculous. He is basically. Picking and choosing things from psychology, textbook, and molding them to his situation to try and convince psychiatrists psychologists that will certainly. Hit on the head and that's really. Why wanted these longer cuts because? You can see where he loses it, and that protective coding, or whatever of him controlling the narrative, trying to sound like he's intelligent trying to woo the person he's talking to. And, it's like a part of that toxic manipulation that he was so well known for he's still manipulating. The other thing I noticed is that he is trying to compartmentalize the part of his personality who is D- that deviant as not really being him, not really who he truly is ask this deviant part of his personality that is is like separate, so I can see his thought process of will. You can't kill me. I didn't really do this. It's this deviant side of me that I don't really like that. I wish I didn't have that. I want to get rid of. Please help me get. In the earlier cut where he was draw describing Hawkins how he went about murdering her. He describes it as being a fever. Wasn't he's a few state. He's not in the driver's seat. I absolutely is in the driver's seat. So as you can imagine outside the Florida prison were bundy would be executed. There was a huge huge media present detailing the execution from outside the prison. Step by step. What was happening when people showed up, they signed a release war. You know a release form and eighty. You got into the van. We're driven the whole. Have you done that knows a reporter know-how? Yeah. Who can you know which terrible is I? Don't even remember who it was. I'm sure you blocked it out. Probably I was working as a reporter in Colorado Okay and went to. You know one of their maximum security prisons where there was an execution happening in was part of that media. Will that just kind of is right outside as the execution is taking place? It's a bizarre feeling like we're sitting here waiting for someone to die. Yeah, and here is they were coming out. You know they'd have people from the prison coming out talking about you know the next step you know his last meal, I? Don't think he even eight I don't i. don't know what he ordered, but he did whatever it was. He didn't eat it. But this is them talking about prepping for the execution. Be Correctional officers with them right now there'll be preparing him for execution. They should begin shaving his head, and so forth within a few minutes. It's really Modlin it's very procedural. That's that's the way they delivered it in. My experience was just very procedural, because he can't get into the emotion it the humanization of the person who is being. The crowds that were out there. They were not I mean if he was out there. They ripped him to shreds the thousands of people, but on January twenty fourth nineteen eighty-nine he was executed in the electric chair, known as Old Sparky at seven sixteen am. Cheers erupted from most of the crowd. Win The when the announcement was made. To my family and friends that was it and then they put a black hood or black Put over his head, avail and He was electrocuted off to your left. You could see hooded executioner. You can only see. The is little slit in the wall on the left hand side of the room and you just see the eyes peering out, and the a nod is given to the executioner, and he's executed his speaking kind of Lurch back in his chair, his fiscal went back like that seemed maybe they gave him two thousand volts for a minute, or so, and as the crowd roared its approval Ted Bundy, and the people who waited so long to see him dead, said their final goodbyes. I mean there are people out there with like frying pans and I didn't get it and I'm like Oh frying like. Big I was like no. Frying Pan have you heard the story about old sparky. When I heard, it sounded so familiar, and that's why included in there, but what do down Let's just say it wasn't the best piece of women always work properly. Yes, there were times people had to be electrocuted multiple times, and I believe there were some times wearing even accidentally sent sparks out yet. On Fire Yeah I caught fire and hit some of the employees who were there, so it got its nickname for a recent so I. Love the fact that you know he had to go. That was the perfect way for him to go right so Bundy was forty two. And he was gone obviously, but his evil deeds, and the effects on the family's lives on I included this cut, because it's from Bundy's former law professor at the University of Utah and he shared his experience of meeting he in this interview, he would say oh well, students would always come up to me during one his law lessons and say hey. Wasn't Ted Bundy. After one of these experiences where he talked about you know what it was like having. Ted Bundy as a student. After everybody left the classroom, a student came up to him, and who said that his sister was a victim of Ted Bundy! Somber look on his face, and he said that one of the victims was evidently his sister she had disappeared. During the time young women disappearing and that evidently Ted Bundy had killed her. Her body was never found course I sympathize straightly with him and I ask you. Do you ever get over a thing like that and he's known my family still. Is Very much disturbed by the fact, not only that she's gone, but that we. Could never find her body the victims. Feel these things for many years after. That happens I'm very sympathetic to them. So, there's no knowing just how many women Bundy murdered on the night before his execution, he admitted that his total might reach into triple digits. He reportedly replied. At one digit to that and you'll have it. was He being sarcastic or did he mean thirty seven murders? Or did he mean a hundred and thirty six murders? Or did he mean three hundred sixty murders? That's an rule I think. She's reading from her book. And did those murders include poor, precious and Marie Maribor. Her mother wrote a letter to Bundy three years before he was executed, just begging for an answer, did he? Did he kill? Her daughter! Dear Ted. On August thirty, first nineteen, sixty one just before school was to start for you and our children. There came a black rainy night with lots of the heavy winds. You were fifteen and had been wandering the streets late at night and peeping in windows and taking cars. I feel your first murder was our Ann Marie Burr? The bench from the backyard was used to climb in the living room. The orchard next door was dark setting for a murder. What did you do with the tiny body? God can forgive you with all appeals likely to be refused and soon there is nothing left for you in this world. There can still be everything good for you in the next. Your life started wrong somewhere. When you were very young, there had to be a lot of bad things. Happen to make you have your strong feelings of Patriot. I came close to ruining my life because of my cruel actions, and feeling no sorrow about them, a lot of strange circumstances brought help to me or I would not have found myself even though I knew I needed help. And my actions were getting out of control. You should have received that same help when you needed it. God can still give the help to you. If you can gather together any strength, you have left and try to feel a real sorrow inside for the horrors. You have brought so many. You will face these scorer alone if there's no chance to be with God after you die. You have nothing more to lose in this world by explaining your sickness, you will feel sorrow and gain everything in the next life, as God promised you and all of us. Please? Try. There isn't much time. I am deeply sorry. You did not get help when you needed it. I have not written until now because the end of life for you did not seem near until now. Will you right back to me regarding Anne Marie? And his response was just so. He responded though I'm a little bit surprised that he even did that much. Quote again and finally I did not abduct your daughter I had nothing to do with her disappearance. But, he also told investigators when questioned about burs, disappearance that that he wouldn't hurt a little girl and denied involvement in nineteen eighty-seven. Bundy confided to law enforcement that there were some murders that he would never talk about because they were committed to close to home to close to family or involved victims who were very young burs. Disappearance matched all three of these categories. Bundy was never arrested or charged with any of his Washington Oregon Colorado or Utah murders, but because of its coma cold case detective working the Ann Marie Burr case his DNA got put into the system. It wasn't even in this system and so cloyd kind of talks about how that amazing facts came to light. It's not in the state of Washington Data Bank, because he was never convicted of a felony and say to Washington even though. He confessed all these murders it. It's just a glitch in the law that that he was formally charged with the murder in Washington, so they couldn't put it in watching quotas data bank, but Lindsay when she was working for Tacoma PD because she was looking into the emery case, she contacted Florida the prison where he was executed, and if they had blood samples or something, and they did, they had a card or something. With his blood on it, so she asked them if they could have it submitted for DNA, they did, and so it's in the national data bank now, but which is good work on her. Because otherwise he would not be in any COTA system if it wasn't for that. I find it incredible that he was never brought to justice for the crimes. He committed here in Washington. State though I, know I mean that that's where it all started. That's where so many of his victims were left and I understand that he was already looking at the death penalty in Florida, but so often when there are cases that cross state boundaries, they will still prosecute because they want the families of the victims here to get their day in court to have justice served, and it's just really sad that that never happened while I know and that he wasn't even put his DNA wasn't. Wasn't even put into the KOTAS when technology caught up to like. Hey, we can find out what happened with these other murders. One thing though that is really interesting speaking of DNA I asked Cloyd because you and I always love talking about this. If in the future we would be able to tell if there's a psychopath marker hard question to answer because there's a big argument. Is it nature or nurture right so I mean if it's if it's nature, then, yes, if it's nurture than no, but they've. They're doing a lot of study right now about psychopaths and trying to detect psychopathic personalities. A friend of mine, WHO's a Canadian is criminologist and he was doing a study on certain personality traits that show up in psychopaths, and so he did all these different studies on these different groups of known psychopaths I know not to be psychopaths and one of his assistants. who was doing the analyzing said. What do you think of this guy and they have some kind of chart you? That's definitely psychopath. He goes. That's you. What so he had all the psychopath markers, but he wasn't a psychopathic oh. Maybe you starts out with a propensity, but there has to be that little. Push to make you become a psychopath, so that really amazed him and I thought was fascinating, too, but you know the thing about DNA. It's advanced more than two years in the previous twenty. So who knows yes? Yes, yes, and I love the way he put that you. You have a propensity, but it takes something to push you over the edge. Breed actually become a psychopath, and I wonder about the incest part of it now that we have his DNA, it's in the database. Have they thought about looking up or does it even say a daily matter? It was cleared with all ready to do. It's just that the the the one funding the test because I'm sure these are really expensive tests. And they decided to go a different route that whatever show they were putting together. Because as we know so often, the victims get the shaft, which is why I wanted to really include all the names of the victims that I. could because the serial killers are the ones that we talk about them and the victims get forgotton anyway I think that that particular series that he was working on? They decided to talk about the victims, and so they didn't. Didn't pursue that, but yeah I mean it's totally available to do. And he was employed was ready to do it. They just didn't want to find somebody with deep pockets. I'm really curious and I know the state's not going to they with the bill for that data Bain and honestly I get it. What's the point right like? It doesn't really change the outcome of. Of the case at this point, and plus you know budgets are super tight right now, so I wouldn't expect any kind of agency to put money into doing any kind of testing on that DNA at this point, but man if there was somebody out there who has deep pockets. He's think about all the different. The FBI behavioral unit all the data that they collect. Collect! It just goes to reason that they would. This would be one of the things that they'd want to find out like one of the most prolific horrible serial killers and our nation's history. Yeah, was there incest? What? What's his background? You know that's not just one factor, but like yeah, it'd be interesting to know and as Cloyd said he's not the first one. Cloyd said that I. Don't know if you caught that in the interview. He's not the first one meaning like. One to have been a product of incest turned serial killer. Yeah, I think that's I. Don't know if that he kinda referred to, and I just didn't go there, but I think that call cloyd back. Another. Excuse to call. Our favorite. Take any excuse. We can get all right. So what's up for next week? Imagine finding out that the man you going. GonNa marry was wanted for murder. Not just anymore, but a heinous despicable, disgusting violent crime. That doesn't sound anything like the man that you know. We'll find out how that one ends next week. And don't forget to check out the crime podcast dot com to get more information on all of the stories that we share with you, photos, links and lots more I'm Caroline Soriano with Kim. Shepard and this is the scene of the crime.