18 Episode results for "John Martin"

95. John Martin Fischer  Death, Immortality and Meaning in Life

Science Salon

1:34:39 hr | 1 year ago

95. John Martin Fischer Death, Immortality and Meaning in Life

"This week's author guest is John Martin Fischer his new book. Is Death immortality in meaning in life. Oxford University Press. This is a professional philosopher. Distinguished professor of philosophy at the University of California Riverside in a university. Professor at the University of California is earlier at work which I also read when I was researching on earth is near death experiences understanding visions of the afterlife Also really a super super interesting book His work as a professional philosopher brings a different perspective to these questions. And then I I bring in others and so This conversation Asian was unbelievably interesting. Probably one of the most interesting event yet in as much as we cover pretty much all the big topics the meaning of life The source of morality with the ISM or without the ISM and The free will to what extent you can hold people morally early accountable for their actions if you live in a secular worldview versus a the worldview and then what it means to be immortal I mean not just living say one hundred two hundred five hundred years thousand years but six million years six hundred million years six billion years I mean eternity is a really long time anyway. So we get into all that he deals with with all the philosophical perspectives on that. So we go back and forth on those and other topics The fact act for example. You can't imagine being dead because to imagine something you have to be alive. So what is it worth thinking about. When we're thinking about having the afterlife immortality and so on all the restrictions that come from our cognition anyway super interesting talk I hope you enjoy it if you enjoy the podcast in general and you want to support us as usual I Up to say this because this is we support our work you can support it Through the skeptics society where a five zero one. C Three nonprofit at skeptic dot com slash donate eight or you can go to our patriots page under skeptic and and make a monthly donation so many different ways to do it and as always we appreciate your support. Thanks this is your host Michael Sherman. And you're listening to science along a series of conversations for stations with leading scientists scholars and thinkers about the most important issues of our time. I'm John Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on very much. The author your new book is death immortality and meaning in life life just a light little topic for a morning discussion. Oxford University Press. I want to note parenthetically. You were also the author of this Great Book Doc near death experiences understanding visions of the afterlife. That is about the coolest cover I have ever seen for a book on this subject. I really loved that and it was really helpful to me when I was researching my book. Heavens on Earth for my chapter on near death experiences I knew a lot about it but from a scientific perspective but I hadn't read that much a philosophical discussion and anyway so I really enjoyed that. It's a great book. I also recommend that. We'll get into that a little bit in talking about and alleged empirical proofs for the afterlife which you're very familiar with but before we do any of that. Why don't you give our listeners? Just a little bit of background of how you became a philosopher. Awesome for and then why. You ended up specializing in this rather heavy topic. We'll thank you. Thank you for having me. I just want to give some credit to my co author. Ben Mitchell Y'all on the first book yes thank you very much I Gosh I think I started as an economics major and then and switched to history but in my sophomore year in college. I realized my true Love was last week. I especially like thinking about hustles so I got interested in Whether free will is compatible with determinism and God's knowledge of God were to exist and I looked at a great paper by the Contemporary Philosopher Harry Frankfurt in which he argues that in the example he presents we can be morally responsible even and if we don't have a certain kind of free well and I've thought about that puzzle and I thought about that muscle and went onto full philosophy. I'm a human being so I'm interested in death and I wondered always what is dead. What happens to US after we die? possible to be immortal. And then my first job in philosophy was at Yale and they asked me to teach an introductory class. They said you can do it on anything so I said let me do it on life. Death and immortality and I started reading the philosophical literature and started thinking about it more in that kind of gotten looked and then at some point because of my writings perhaps with my colleague at Yale who then and went to Santa Barbara. Anthony Bruckner close friend and collaborator over. Time attracted the attention of the John Templeton Foundation addition and they asked me to apply for a big grant on immortality which I fortunately got and as I was looking king at proposals by scientists and philosophers and theologians for support from the project I got interested in near death experiences. I knew nothing nothing about near death. Experiences or the contemporary work on a living forever trying to lift Until I started that grant and so that was Seven years ago and increasingly. I'm interested in those subjects. Very good most of my books are written not not just from a scientific perspective. I'm not philosopher but mainly to respond to my debate partners mostly theorists in the last two books Moral Arc and heavens on earth. They were to respond to this idea that without God there can be no objective moral standards and without God. There can't be an afterlife therefore there's no meaning in life and so on so I'd be curious as a dive into your book how you would respond that these kinds of claims so just give me a couple of minutes here to read. I'll try to steal man the easiest argument. This is from a debate. I did with William Lane Craig. Who is one of the more public intellectual theorists? Who Does a lot of these debates? He says on naturalistic worldview. Everything is ultimately ultimately destined to destruction in the heat death of the universe as the universe expands. It grows colder and colder as its energy is used up eventually. All the stars will burn out all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. They'll be no life no heat no light only corpses of dead stars and galaxies expanding into endless darkness in light of that. And it's hard for me to understand how our moral choice moral choices have any sort of significance. There's no moral accountability. The Universe is neither better nor worse for what we do. Our moralize become vacuous. Because they don't have that kind of cosmic ause make significance without God. There are no objective moral values moral duties or moral accountability if life ends at the grave than ultimately makes no difference whether you live as Stalin or a mother Theresa. I'd be curious to know how you you would respond to something I like that. Yes those. Aren't you. See those arguments. Not Just in the contemporary philosopher William Lane Craig but route. The history was especially the French into existential is what I would say is it very explicitly takes the more abstract perspective respective the perspective from the end. You could say or a perspective of the sort that Thomas Nichols. The NATO calls the view from nowhere. It takes that as the dominant decisive perspective and everything is judged in terms of the end or something in the distant future. But I think that's problematic. I don't see why We wouldn't be moral all creatures and it wouldn't be important to APP to respect others and to coordinate our behavior efficiently unjustly in a political local state as we live now so I as a human being and all of us as human beings can take different perspectives. I take as I'm living my life. I take my perspective here from here and now and projects are important to me. Other people are important me from this the perspective then I can also step back and reflect on my projects on my desires and my values and I can sometimes adjust in light of new circumstances or new reflections new experiences so I can step back from the perspective and some of the work on free will and moral responsibility Ponsa -bility involves importantly considering the opportunity and the capacity of persons to step back and reflect. That's important but but that's not zooming out into philosophical outer space. What William Lane Craig is asking us to do is zoom out into outer space ace And and look at our lives from nowhere or from the distant future but why should that matter. Why should that be decisive? That's when I'm on enough I think of it this way. Suppose I tell you you WanNa go to a nice restaurant. This is a fairly mundane example. And I said look you'll be done with the meal and a couple hours you'll be done And at that point maybe you'll even regret eating as much as you will have eaten but so you really won't be having pleasure anymore so there's no point there's just no point because at some point it'll be over I just think that's around way of thinking about it or imagine that you're watching An interesting streaming show on. HBO You're watching game of thrones or whatever you like to watch and you say but if I just go all the way till the end everything will be spoiled. I'll know the ending and nothing will be worthwhile. And when I'm GONNA say well. Why Y fast forward to the end where you're watching the show you're enjoying doing it? Yes if vast oriented you could see that everything in between will be right for you the the excitement and the passion and the engagement agent. But why do that. Why fast forward? That's that's my view about these arguments and you see them not just. It's not just a temporal zoom out. But it's a spatial zoom out to some people. Say if you look at Your Life Area Spratly you'll see that there's no difference between human life and let's say CICIS rolling the rock up the hill or even the glowworms in New Zealand or any kind of trivial feel repetitive. Life and again what I want to say as yet if you abstract far enough away you won't see the richness and the tester of our lives so that I could talk forever on that but I know that's a good one. You have a discussion in your book. Called the zoom in zoom out argument and that that's what you're focused on their the matters at what level were existing in or at least what level were talking about. What matters I call this Alvidi error one of my scientific American Collins? Alvie the is elvis singer. Woody Allen's character in Annie Hall where he refuses to do his homework and his mother takes him to the psychiatrist and psychiatrist asking what's the problem and he says the universe is expanding so what well if the universe is expanding and one day it's GonNa all blow up so it doesn't matter if I do my homework and his mother says what's the universe got to do. We live in Brooklyn and Brooklyn is not expanding right right right exactly. That's that's it a caregiver for a road that we live our lives from the perspective of here now but we find meaning from a more abstract perspective. That's all okay with me. But the abstract expresed expresed perspective doesn't have zoom out so far that we miss a forest for the trees. Yeah that column I quoted Your colleague. Sorry Shelley Shelly. Kagan fact you have a blurb from Shelly I think on your near death. Experiences is book. Kelly says on that particular quote this strikes me as an outrageous thing to suggest. It doesn't really matter he's here talking about the Nazi tortures. It doesn't really matter. Surely it matters to the torture victims. When they're being tortured it doesn't require that this makes them toz MC difference Princeton the turtles significance of the universe for it to matter whether a human being tortured it matters to them? Manage their family matters to us right and imagine if the Nazi told the victim. Look I'm doing this but it really doesn't matter because eventually it'll be over eventually. We'll all be dusk. That would be a terrible argument. Doc and Wayne craigslist similarly terrible. Yeah well that's the arguments made Just a couple of other examples. Ben Shapiro's new book The right side of history. I had been on my podcast. He's a friend. I I really like Ben. But he and he's much more intellectual than than most Theissen on this regard but he takes on pinker myself and Sam Harris that the argument that moral values can be derived through reason. And you know the the whole enlightment project and so on. And so you know. Ben's argument in this book is that it's it's Athens and Jerusalem that is pinker and Harrison Ir depending any non Athens Greek reason and all that but but Jerusalem and so he's really leaning here on this biblical idea that humans were remain in God's image and that's what gives us dignity and that's what grounds moral values and something beyond just survival and flourishing of human beans means or the or the wellbeing of conscious creatures Osam defines it. He wants something more again. It's that there's some outside source that says this is valuable right well exactly so. The argument sometimes pertain to ethics moral values but also to meaningfulness list or meaning in life and obviously some people argue that without God that would be no meaning in life and again. I think that argument is problematic. Attic and one way of putting it is if we are made in God's image what exactly is that but what it's got or who is God what his properties that we mirror. What exactly What specifically could give us guidance? So as you now another southern Californian Rick Warren famous minister in China has yeah right right. Has Written a book about the purpose driven life. Hyphen says his arm. Meaning comes from fulfilling God's mission from us God God's purpose for us but now the question is what exactly is purpose. What exactly is it to live in accordance with God's mission for us if if it's very abstract then it doesn't really give us any specific guidance and we have the same problem we would have if we were secular and didn't believe in God but if it's very specific so God has specific concrete person purpose for each individual my purposes to be of last week Preveza. Your Rep assist us to be a public intellectual and very interested in philosophy by the way you say. You're not but I've seen some of your Oregon podcast you're very interested in philosophy and some people's purposes to be a painter some s to be a brick layer. That just seems then to to leave very little room for free will and also raises the question. How do I know my specific purpose? So my own view is. It doesn't really help much deposit. Is it that God has purpose for us or that. We are living in God's image I mean how exactly does that help I would also any also many people employ God as an inference and inference to the best explanation. How do we explain certain nominee while we have to invoke God? How do we explain morality? How do we explain? Explain meeting in Life God had we explain causation. How's ation or design in the universe? Got But my question always is. Is that really the best inference. I agree for some. It's a very good comforting idea that there is a got and I would never want to dissuade them. I'm in my I'm not in the business. snus of removing people's comfort about their lives and about death. I don't really want to do that but I would argue that. The people who say we couldn't have meaning in life are we couldn't have ethics without God. That is wrong. That's just wrong. Well they're I guess they're counter to that is that you you must then be a moral relativist even if you say well. Our constitution guarantees these rights or we have a bill of rights or we have a social contract that can all be removed. Yeah we we get a new regime that topples the current regime and it's just human convention. There's no there's no truth of the capital T. or objectivity behind signed therefore you're a moral relativist right but you're not a moral relativist are you. I'm not in a way I am in a way I'm not. I Follow Philosophers Light John. Ross who believes that what we do is we reflect critically on our evaluative or moral judgments where they might call are considered sittard. intuitions not just our you know our views when we have had a few beers. We're talking to our friends or when we're in a panic or whatever. Whatever or where enraged are reflective intuitions about moral matters in cool rational place? And then we systematize those Schmitz. We look for principles. We Prune the judgments we adjust the principles. We adjust everything. So where in what. He called reflective equilibrium. And that does mean that we start from certain starting so I am a raw to this in the sense that I understand. Stand if you started with very different intuitions or berry different principles that you're attached to. You'll probably come up with a different reflective give equilibrium rawls talked about an overlapping consensus in which different groups will have a core of shared views. So I'm not a radical relativists relativists. But I do think we have to start from certain starting point if you posit objective truths then you avoid that kind of relativism awesome but then you create the pistol logical problem. How do we know what those objective And as you know religious use according to which there is one objective. Truth can't in. Its in themselves. Solve this episode product so many of the wars and conflicts in the world both are precisely between religious groups each of which they have the objective trick so yes we all have our problems in philosophy. You can't avoid in my view. Certain starting on since a certain kind of relativism. Broadly construed unless you adopted view which creates at the static problems that are just as deep. I think if not deeper because as human beings we need to coordinate our behavior we need to eliminate or at least reduce war and strife and pain and intolerance and to move to a an end objective truth about ethics or meaning. Doesn't solve any of those problems rawls is position of ignorance or the original condition. Where if I don't know which group I'm going to be in? I want to write the law in such a way that if I'm in the bag the minority group of the group is likely to be discriminated against. I want a lot of protect protect me. That's kind of a to me. It's kind of a scientific argument. Inasmuch as it assumes that human nature is universal. We'd all rather be alive than dead. The free than enslaved you know rather than starving and so on and from there you can build certain characteristics. That civil society should have these kinds of things. Now we may. He ended up in disputes. About what is the right tax rate to support those kinds of programs are universal healthcare. Whatever but fundamentally we all want the same thing we we you WanNa be alive than dead we want to flourish and so forth from there you can build something like that and there's a and the Copernican principle that I'm not special that my brain is designed nine the same way as your brain therefore I can suffer? You can probably suffer and if that hurts me it'd probably hurt you from there. You can kind of build some kind fine of maybe. You don't want to use the word objective moral values but something like derive moral values derived from not just philosophy but also empirical science. We can observe what people want exactly. And that's why rawls uses the term wide reflective women. So it's not just our intuitive judgments even cool reflected our but we incorporate the best science as well and It is a kind of objectivity it may not be objectivity with a a large O or maybe it has a capital o but the rest of the letters are capitalized. But it is a kind of objectivity Susan Wolf and her interesting work on the meaning of alive and on free will does think of consensus of a rosy in kind as a kind of objectivity may be the only kind of objectivity that we really can get. Let me also emphasize. It's not just the religious views we believe in objective. Truce if you look at conference argues that there are objective truth in con- from the fact that we're all similarly rational beings and what he wants to do is derive objective crews from our nature as rational creatures. Now I think there are problems with this kind of secular objectivity as well. But you don't don't have to be religious truth right then in that in that kind of savings into the discussion the afterlife and immortality inasmuch as is one aspect that seems to be important a lot of people is that the afterlife also is the source of cosmic courthouse where all wrongs are righted and evil. People are punished and Hitler didn't get away with it. Stalin didn't get away with it. I can see the appeal of that. There's a tremendous appeal. I think has been something about human nature and human beings that wants our that is very very attracted to religion if you think religion as a way of solving problems one of the problems we have is The injustice that we see in our actual worlds and our desire to see at rectify. And I think that's a very powerful force. The early Jews did not really believe in an afterlife. Or there's nothing in early Judaism that corresponds to the Christian Ocean of an Acolyte but in the Middle Ages. Jewish people were really struggling with author's idea of injustice and so the rabbis added some at some material about the acolyte but the idea was to rectify the injustices that we see in in this world and the Black Church in America has been very important in imparting hope to people that this unjust world will conventionally be fixed and it will only be this will be a blip or a grain of sand in a in a large beach of tranquillity injustice. So we we we want that and we also want an explanation for what happens around us And we want. I think this is kind of a Freudian white but we as human beings have a need to have a a parental figure looking after us at we when we want the the universe to be ordered in a benign way Wanted all to work out and religion offers solutions to these. He's browns now ultimately whether they're adequate are all people or adequate at all. That's a different story. So a belief in the afterlife does provide that. What kind of comfort? I don't think I wish I could believe in it at. I wish if she didn't really I wish I could. Honestly insincerely believe that all injustice will be part of the Yemeni in the end. But LET I. Don't I worry that that's not the case so I'm more inclined to take a lie. Just unfair as CIA going back to John Rawls. There's a natural and social lottery There's a lottery. I don't deserve mine. Natural Talents The great athletes don't deserve their natural abilities. Of course we can develop them more or less but then again. I don't deserve having been born into a family that really valued that or not having been born into a place where I'd have to emigrate from my country just to have the ability to live so a lot of life is a matter of black and there are fundamental injustices. That doesn't mean we have to just allow all the injustices to persist so my view is life isn't fair and in the end there will be adjusted as just welby. Yeah but we can work as hard hard as we can to alleviate at our to ameliorate and to eliminate those injustices there are some. I am comforts that unfortunately are matter of wishful thinking and this might be. This is one of Christopher Hitchens many criticisms of mother other Theresa that she's just offering up to the poor. You know I know you're suffering now but don't worry it's going to be great in the next life when really what the poor need is water food. Vitamins Women's roof over your head. Why not give him that exactly? And there is some comfort in a secular view in that you are suffering now and there's terrible pain apart from the social injustice some people are born with cerebral palsy. Other people we'll get cancer. There's terrible suffering but when you're dying the suffering will end even on secular view matter of fact on the religious just because there's the danger that you'll end up in hell at which is going to involve eternal damnation at least on certain religious views. The secular view you in my view does offer comfort the suffering will end. Yes I think it will. It's one good argument for why we should fight for justice in this world world. Just in case there isn't cosmic justice but even if there is we still don't want Hitler and they have gotten away with it now. We want to get them while they're still alive. Which is why we have a an international tribunal of war crimes and you WanNa get them before they commit suicide? As part of living in a rich way is Having dignity and respecting others and being respected by others and part of that is holding each other ourselves at others others morally responsible for an action. That's important to us as we live our lives. Now you know it's interesting. We're talking just a few days after Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. I don't hear anyone saying it's okay. Because he's GonNa get his up in the cosmic courthouse. God is going to really stick it to know. They're pissed because we wanted to give them justice now. How right and this illustrates an interesting point? Some people think. Oh it's puzzling. Why someone on death row who tries to kill himself or herself exits Heath Jeff? We we spend a lot of money to try and save those people. Why do we do that? The point is if they kill themselves than they're in charge. They haven't been held accountable by society when society kills them then society symbolically expresses our concern concern about the victims and are concerned about the social order. So it's different. He took it. He was unfortunately in charge at the end. And he shouldn't have that Jerry Seinfeld funny riff about that where the cops beat the crap out of some perp and then they carefully put him in the back seat of the car so he doesn't and bump his ED exactly well. That's because we want society to express our indignation and our resentment. We don't wants to happen accidentally. Maybe this is a good place to to bring up free. Will you don't discuss a lot of that in your book. I know you you've written about this elsewhere and I don't want to spend a Lotta time. Hi Monica it's IT'S A. It's a tangle net but basically libertarian. Free will compatible ISM and then determinism. Most scientific friends are determinist. People like Sam Harrison and Jerry showing very outspoken determinist. They have really good arguments but my friend Dan Dan it is compatible. He has really good arguments to me. It's seems to come down to linguistics. What exactly do you mean by free will or volition or making a choice? What do you mean by determinism? I mean we all agree. We live in a determine German universe with cause and effect except the quantum level. How how do you reconciling that it particularly with regard to these moral issues? People being held accountable notable in all that so I think I'm on dented site in that online compatible list but I call myself semi compatible speakers. I don't think determinism is compatible the freedom to do otherwise but I think it is compatible with acting really being morally responsible so I follow a great tradition. That really goes back to cry. I SIP as and John Locke and in Contemporary Philosophy Robert knows again Harry Frankfurt according to which you have freely In in virtue of acting in a way that isn't impaired or is the result of the human capacity for practical reasoning where your inability to do otherwise plays no role in the actual secrets or history of your action. That can't so it's very controversial. Obviously but let me say bottom line. Those folks you mentioned like coin and Harris and many neuroscientists I think that if determinism is true e Oh abso- just in virtual that there's no free will then not even consider the idea that free we will of some kind might be consistent with disarmament the Iran about semantics. They use the term. Free will in a way that presupposes libertarianism or indeterminate. That's violating the speed limits. That's that's the violate those Metaphysical speed limit because free will In itself does not entail indeterminate You can debate about this and philosophers have spent two thousand listen years debating about the relationship between the truth. Values are God's knowledge in retail in the last three Hundred Years About Scientific determinism urbanism entry. Will those are difficult questions. It's not fair just to say well we've discovered that the to the brain works deterministically and therefore there's no free but that's is too fast. I believe that even if puzzle determinism obtains we can act freely and my own view is it's because we can act on our own reasons responsive mechanisms of their certain processes in our brains Alternately which are which. Underwrite reasons responsiveness our responsiveness to reasons. And those processes and that responsiveness can exist in a deterministic world. Or even if you believe in God in a world in which there's four nouns perfect orange does our mind is you'd have to have the on for another discuss so just disappointed in different words We are aware of the contingencies impinging and variables impinging upon our actions and were self aware of how we typically respond to those and being self aware. You could tweak the variables you could essentially say for example. I know I'M GONNA want chocolate chip cookies between six o'clock and eight o'clock at night after dinner therefore I'm not going to have any in the house because future me is going to respond in a way. That's not good for my health so current me is going to tweak those future variables and that gives me some kind of volition in or whatever the right word right yes. So that's going back to this. Minimal zoom out or this stepping back and reflecting adjusting and adjusting our values perhaps and our desires adjusting our circumstances right the alcoholic or the person on a diet does not want to have a lot of alcohol in the house or the chocolate chip cookies there on the counter so therefore you could say we'll Shurmur. You are responsible for violating that Latte in having a cookie. Your drink Extra drink as you knew you were going to respond that way right. That's part of it yes you. You can't be held morally responsible even even if in the end we we believe you couldn't have done otherwise. Because of the way in which the action was formed the action entered choice came from the process that was responsive to reason so if I had believed that I've lost all the weight I need to and it's time to treat myself. It's better to treat myself in the long run than be abstemious. Because then I won't binge so those were my reasons and I- If I were to choose is in accordance with those reasons then I'm reasons responsive I mean. The actual situation had arisen that you know you're a little overweight and and a lot of carbs. Simple cards aren't badly. But as long as my choices come from a process or a mechanism that I own. And that is responsive to conditions in the world and considerations that come from those Those conditions in other words reasons I can be held responsible. That's my idea now. It's very controversial. As you know we've been talking about free. Wells or Millennia added keeps philosophers business right by Dan's degrees of freedom that allows us to say the drug addict picked. The alcoholic has fewer degrees of freedom than say you and I have you and I might succumb a little bit but we have a little more self control so we should be held more accountable. The person that it has the brain tumor or whatever causes them to act a certain way. We can be a little more forgiving of their sinful behavior because they couldn't help it as much approach instead of it being binary spectrum. Yeah I agree and I should give some credit Dan dinner for his book Elbow Room which is important important book Because he also talked about reasons responsiveness as opposed to what he called specs. specs issue has with specs. This is a kind of insect bet is abyss Dick And it's not responsive to perturbations in its environment. We on the other hand are so. That's an important incite than it had another important approaches to embed our philosophical reflections in a wider context of science those are important Mortenson Library of the way I tend to look at it as Pretty well and moral responsibility in my view at least isn't are absolutes but what what admit of gradations are craze worthiness in blameworthy. So we can look at some people as less blameworthy because of their circumstances stances. I'm not necessarily convinced. They're less free but they are less blameworthy So we both agree that. There's some gradation something on that a bit of degrees but I would place in a little different location. Yeah in the new book you you talk about. What does it really mean to live forever immortal and this reminded me reading that of Christopher Hitchens quip about the Christian Heaven Being Celestial North Korea where you have this dictator knows everything you're doing is watching you and controlling all your thoughts? That doesn't sound like a pleasant environment to be in much less forever right. Yeah well. That's a version of Mark Twain's worries about Heaven Not so much north grid but gave didn't really fancy that you're listening to harp music and interacting with boringly good people. I don't know if you'd WanNa live with sister Theresa and her her colleagues forever There's NO METALLICA in heaven. Just marketing but yes so I think one way of putting winging it is there is a set of challenges for afterlife. US about immortality just like there are set of challenges for secular secular. Music is about immortality living forever one of the classic Aures as the problem of boredom I mean in contemporary analytic philosophy Bernie Williams Raises that wearing at. Would we be or he talks about A play by Carol Made into an opera by janacek about a character. Lena Macropoulos Uis father has given her an elixir of eternal. Life really allows her to live three hundred years and then she it has to decide whether to take it again in the end she decides not to because she's bored. So that's a challenge or the people who are secular immortal analysts as well as afterlife tout immortals I believe interestingly the replies can be parallel because I don't think it would inevitably be boring to live forever because there are projects that are Importantly compelling rolling that I think could be importantly compelling and engaging forever I think there are certain experiences and pleasures I that are what I call repeatable as long as they're distributed in white right wax so listening to a beautiful piece of music enjoying your favorite delicious Che's food if you listen to the song over and over and over again argue. Eat the food over and over and over again day after day yes will become Boran Front. You'll become sick and buy it. You'll want to die. But if you distribute your pleasures and your experiences and you engage in the projects in a life that also has a rich texture of other activities. I don't think it would be boring. I'd say the same thing about heaven although there are perhaps fewer opportunities for certain kinds of projects. They're still ED. It's a community in conversation or communion with a perfect being there also other individuals in heaven with whom one could have some kind of interaction and arguably these possibilities are enough to ground the idea that heaven. It doesn't have to be boring. Doesn't have to be like North Korea but I believe the resources are a little skimpy your in the Religious tradition but there there air and of course there is just say there is a concession in Christianity all the different religious views have of different conceptions of Heaven it's over-simplification to save the Christian view or wasn't but on a view. You're not just in communion communion or conversation or relation to God you are In an ecstatic union. A kind of blissful the perfect union with got And that by definition can't be boring. It's by definition kind of ecstasy. And if so but talk about in the book elsewhere in the meaning chapter about distinguishing between happiness and meaningfulness all section. On this and Evans honor to Roy Bomb Meisters research on what makes people happy verse versus what they report gives them a meaningful life and they're not the same thing you know like maybe struggles and challenges long-term goals that you have to work toward and your. It's not fun doing it. You're not sitting there working out or being in a caretaker for apparent like my example. It's not fun. I'm not sending the thinking. I'm just I'm just the happiest Camper all day today. No kind of unhappy actually but later later down the road. I think that was a good thing to do. That makes me feel like a good person. I lead a more meaningful life. Maybe having would need to have something like that right I agree I totally agree. Happiness and meaning are different and I think there are some bank of poets and authors and Some scientists and people in general who live lives of quiet desperation are there or not so quiet desperation. Desperation they struggle. They're depressed These can still be deeply meaningful. Lives matter of fact. This is the age of documentary. So you'll see documentaries resigned people. You thought were perfectly happy. And you'll see that they struggle. They went through difficulties illness. Divorce and still they lead meaningful a lot so I agree. So you might wonder is a blissful union with God an ecstatic union is that really mean meaningful or is it just being very very happy i. I don't know how to answer that question. I don't think a religious person who believes in this particular conception of Heaven would say it's just happiness or contentment. I think they would say well. You know like in the Buddhist conception of Nirvana it's it's not just a passive contentment. But it's some kind of active perfect state state that can't by its definition be tedious or boring or meaningless now had to give more blush to those bones. I'm not sure. Yeah Yeah No. When I was in college undergraduate I was born again Christian too you know? And as an even good evangelical evangelizing and including my philosophy professor Richard Artisan and he wanted to know. I'm telling them about how great it's going to be in the next life. He said other golf courses there he was. He was an Avid Golfer. I need challenges every day. I have no idea. There's golf courses in heaven and then Julia Sweeney has great bit in her monologue letting go of God Julia Sweeney is the former Saturday night. Live comedian and inner monologue. She talks about the Mormon boys coming by our house in Hollywood pitching their story and so she invites the men and and they give her the whole the whole bit about The Angel Moroni and finding the gold tablets in Palmira New York and all that stuff but then they get to the part. She has another monologue where she talks about how difficult time he's had with their family on again off again. They don't like each other. They do and so on typical family and the Mormon boys say well in heaven you get to spend all of eternity entity with your family. And she's like Oh that would not be good. I think most of us if you think of the last leading to our apartments but you so you might not want to spend forever with Uncle Harry. I agree yeah so and then there's the problem in this to just use Julius example because it's funny where she had had her uterus taken out for uterine cancer she another monologue about that so the Mormon boys are telling her. You know when you're when you're born again in heaven your made whole the blind line Chelsea the deaf shell here and the handicap be whole again and she said well. I had my uterus taking. How do I get my uterus back? And they go imagine they don't even know what uteruses but you yeah you get your uterus dykes. Because I don't want it back. And then she had a nose job and you liked it back. I mean this the heel and the power uh of positive thinking but more specifically of wishful thinking we want to make a distinction between positive thinking and wishful full thinking and I think it is wishful thinking to think that everything will work out will all be made whole we will be in an ecstatic relationship to God. God that's deeply meaningful. That's a wonderful picture and I think but and I think it is important to have a positive outlook look online and a lot of ways People's health is better when they're optimistic. We help each other more when we focus on the positive And when we have images that are peaceful We tend to do better. But I think there's a difference between that and wishful spoken king in this gets to the problem of identity of who you are and therefore what is up there in heaven with God is it just isn't my physical body body or just my soul. Whatever that is if it's if dualistic model and if it's my physical body or even if it's my soul at what age am I when I'm up there and and so on and the and the and the singularity mind uploading people they sorta the same problem because a copy of your connect dome is just a snapshot of Your Current Memories? At the moment they scan it which is not your whole lifetime. That's that moment. The of the memories which are very inaccurate and change to me. This seems like a serious problem. It's a serious problem for all these years. It's a challenge. I'm not saying that it's totally in Super Bowl. I think it's worse for the applauding people. Because I don't I'm not a it may be somehow essential to human beings or person recent humans as persons be embodied in a certain way. Secondly it's not clear how we could be conscious. Men have the famous what let's like properties if we are uploaded to computers at their all sorts of promise with that view There's also animal ISM awesome view famously propounded by Eric Olson. According to which I am my animal we are identical to our animal bodies at where are organisms and so being uploaded to computers would be impossible so that's all really but you're right on the the different religious conceptions. There are different pictures pictures of who will end up in the afterlife. There are some years as you say according to which my soul separate from my body and will be in in heaven either united with God or in some kind of close intimate relationship with guys on other views. I get resurrected so I either have a resurrection coaching body. which is different from my actually? I have my same actual body. Somehow God can take those molecules and and recreate ate them in having an as another all sorts of problems and questions about that and then on the Mormon view you actually continue as a material being thing maybe on a different planet but you are your material being you get your own planet right now right on the Buddhist view. you you. It's not clear what you are. There's this no south idea but you do get reincarnated at least on some of the Buddhist traditions and so some people think of it that you could use the metaphor of a flame. You're not maybe a substantial substance. I like your kind of like some energy like a flame that goes into a different candle but so they're all sorts of different views on the shell. Real Challenges Puzzles I like to think of them as metaphor or aspirational channel ideas. But if you start pushing them. They're very difficult. I should also say that. The secular notion of immortality. Also when you start thinking carefully you wonder you know what visit my invulnerable. If nuclear bomb landed on my head. I could somehow still live. I mean how's that UH people doesn't mortality mean. I could eat as many chocolate chip cookies as want to use as many drugs as I want and still be healthy. So they're all these questions doesn't mean everyone will be immortal are only only a subset so there are challenges for all these yeah when the when the singularity people and other transhumance challenge me Shurmur knowing you WanNa live to be five hundred or a thousand years old. It's like look just give me the ninety without prostate cancer. One hundred without Alzheimer's just solve one problem at a time But but but to me. This is why it's kind of a secular religion. It's like no no. They're not interested in that they liked this grandview. We're GONNA live ten thousand years or whatever and and some of them believe in the uploading hypothesis and then you see excellent depictions of some of the dystopia implications are possible. Oh and like in the show Black Mirror black here. There's an episode in which someone's uploaded but controlled by others and forced to torture endlessly. So if we're uploaded gets to control the computers and so they're all sorts of DYSTOPIA impossibilities. That they put aside. I just have this simple view. That many of the optimus about immortality whether they believe leaving uploading or biological means of achieving MBA's line are just hopelessly optimistic or they. You have a view about possibilities. That is just not realistic I have a lot of respect for the I like Aubrey de Grey. I answered him a friend. He's been generous and he's even visited classes of ours at UCR is a really nice guy. But I think you know if I think about it whenever I had some minor surgeries or medical interventions or prescriptions that have side effects affects or the surgeries. Go wrong. Just think about it. It's just this incredible leap. They almost religion as you point out to assume assume that our technology will lead US fairly quickly to mortality. It's just not realistic. I went to the singularity summit a few years ago go or Ray Kurzweil gave his. I have a dream speech on stage. I mean it felt like being in church again. It's like Oh my God we. We are the generation. We're the ones that are GONNA make it. We're GONNA the League that launch off point. He talks about twenty thirty twenty forty. It's going to happen. Always win in our lifetime. That's that's that's what triggers my alarms and some of them do you believe in step-by-step. They think okay. We'll solve this problem. That will give us a little more time. It will keep working. What's up this prominent eventually will achieve the singularity or the has degraded says longevity. Escape velocity but they are too optimistic. There's also the problem of whether our environment will sustain longevity because we're very quickly Destroying our our planet in our environment. And it's not clear. What kind of support for these biologically endless lives so there are a lot of challenges? But what I what I should say is you gotta believe in something. Thank you won't really have much life. Your projects will run out pretty quickly. So you might believe in reason or you might believe in science or you might have faith in an afterlife and but if you have faith in science and you work at it even if you don't achieve the kind of success you think you will achieve other successes. There's all sorts of serendipity in the history of science and so I think if you're going to believe anything leaving the possibility possiblility of progress in science or believe in God and do your best to act in accordance with real religious principles. There's is this argument that you discuss as well that death puts kind of an end cap on a journey that you're making if there was no end cap here you're you wouldn't feel like you're kind of moving through stages like I'm about to turn sixty five so I get Medicare and all these things that are happening. I kind of a young guy. No I think you're a couple couple years older than me but I sort of feel like okay. I'm about to make this transition here. I should start saving more money here and doing this. And that if I if I didn't know if I was GONNA it'll if five hundred thousand years you know. There would be no sense of urgency to do this and then this and then this one what do you think about that argument. That death gives meaning. If there was no death it would be some sort of lack of meaning because of that. Very good. Client I would separate two ideas one the idea that our lives at stages and therefore we didn't have stages it wouldn't be a recognizable human life. The other ideas that our lives are thraw. They're made urgent by our limitations. Some people attributed at the heidegger. They're very less was argued that So first of all with regard to the stages Osam Chef Warren really interesting. The book argues that that our lives have stages. If you imagine immortality are extreme longevity. You're imagining a life. That's not recognizably. Nothing nicely him. And because it doesn't have the status I agree. It won't have the same status. It'll still have some of the stages that will still be babies presumably toddler when young people adolescence and young adults. It'll just be there will be a stage. Then that will be missing the stage that you and I are going into Where we're China not wrapping up our lives but moving into a different part of our lives getting ready for retirement and for passing wisdom onto our children for modeling kind of strength in facing death and that stays will be gone? I don't know if we need all the stages. In order to recognize human life imagine in the nineteen at the beginning of the twentieth century then average longevity and Western Societies was about forty years. Imagine someone saying well. We shouldn't try and extend that it wouldn't be recognized human. We have certain stages now Alex Eighty years. Course it's going down a little because of some of the problems we have but it's basically shot up in the last one hundred years and if we get over this hump maybe it'll start knowing that maybe our average will be a hundred years if we make it to the next century but I think it's too conservative conservative. It's extremely conservative to say. Oh don't try and deputy because of the stages secondly about frothiness the or the limitations giving us meaning I think there are a lot of other features of our lives that make make a projects Sergent And give us a meaning so for instance even if death were gone we would still worry about depression. Loneliness S. impairment presumably could be physically impaired frustration. Think about loneliness. Let's say you love someone and you want to be with that a person deeply And someone says well now you'll be immortal so you'll have an infinite or very very large number of chances is to be with that person. I know that that doesn't Ensure that that individual love me that I will succeed in this deep desire fire. I still may be only an infinite amount of time. Might give an opportunity for infinite rejection or you know so I'm afraid of loneliness and depression of impairment of frustration. And all those give a certain Bourbon Street to my life. Think about paint I might have a very painful injury or a chronic condition. That's very painful. And if someone says you'll be immortal ordinal and you know you won't die. I might say there are fates worth. Yeah I think when we think of these thought experiments of how long would you like to live two hundred. Four hundred. The presumption is you're healthy and strong and not in pain. You're not depressed or not suicidal right. I mean you have to have that built in Terrell's the answer would be no. Oh I don't want to live that long right but I think you're not suicide on. You're not in terrible pain but you could still be lonely. You can still be frustrated in your projects. You can still be depressed if we eliminate all of that than it is not clear that it's a human life at all I mean. Have you live with all all your desires satisfied all the time I mean people have incompatible desires So I mean every great novel. Every grade film is pretty much built on suffering suffering. Something tragic happens. And that's what gives meaning right and it's not just depth. That's what I say that's encouraged. Think about courage. Some people say encourages persistence in the light of a possible death. Okay you need to think about the possibility of death in in order to be courageous. But that's just not true. You can be courageous in a lot of different context. We talk about people who have been sexually abused or raped and they come forward forward and they talk about. That may confront their their harasser are. They're they're rapists. We say that takes courage but that's not really in the face of death. Although some circumstances can almost can have that component but other virtues meaning they don't have to come from death that's my Challenges Yeah it's too quick to dismiss list longevity or extreme longevity are indefinite life expend- Extension some people like I like to say violate the philosophical speed limit. They don't they go to quickly and I should say it's kind of the cool view in philosophy in contemporary philosophy to be curmudgeonly about immortality. Orange Audi people follow Bernard Williams at people like Sam Chef Ler hand other Shelly Kagan They all believe that it's not it wouldn't be worthy of choice. Yeah if we had a choice your speed limit. I mean. It's one thing to think well if I lived at one hundred and fifty or two hundred years so I'd have six careers instead of to have six marriages instead of two that seems within range range if a thousand years or ten thousand years I can't imagine being married you know like two hundred times are I mean. It's hard to conceive what I would even mean right while you're imagine just being married once or twice or three times but even once now people wonder could be married to the same person for or a thousand is could that possibly work. I think you'd go back and forth. People spice up their marriages and renew them renew their vows. Re there marriages even now in our finite lives. I don't know that you couldn't imagine that in a very long live and one thing I wanna this is what is the worst or at least one other worse things that can happen to us. Losing apparent to death at a young a young age using losing both losing a spouse to death losing a child Luckett be worth worse and debt. Losing a good friend. I unfortunately unfortunately I lost Anthony. brickner the great philosopher at UC. Santa Barbara too young It is tragic and hurts other people deeply as some people are scarred for life by these kinds of losses at least in it if we were immortal we wouldn't have that in life Atlanta unless we could live forever but accidents still occur. Yeah well again. That's a good point and it but it would be much less frequent. I mean you're right The idea I distinguish following Stephen K.. Stephen Cape has a wonderful book on distinguishes between medical and true mortality. Medical immortality is wouldn't die of natural causes but you still could be run over by a truck asked Loyd or or murdered by some okay The trailer mortality is not vulnerable to anything if we think about medical mortality guess our lives could still be fraught. We you could still lose people but it would be much less frequent I think or at least spread out more but but again as you point out in your book immortality. We're not talking talking about any of that. We're talking about not six thousand years sixty million years what does it even mean. That's just insane. It's inconceivable I mean how. How many different sexual partners would you have? In one hundred million years even wilt Chamberlain who had said he had twenty thousand sex partners. I mean you know you'd have to twenty twenty million sex partner whatever it would be inconceivable that you wouldn't have to choose again in a as you pointed out. Some some people choose that in our a finite wise but ultimately they usually see it as meaningless or at least it's a kind of neurosis sir. Sickness it's looking for meaning in the wrong place and of course people do that in our finite lives. That's not something special to infinite Senate and if our lives were very very long way could still we would still seek meaning again. There are fates worse than death Sunday but would prefer the death penalty to living forever in jail. So you don't Wanna live forever in a psychological or or physical jail and you don't WanNa live forever seeking meaning and pleasure from sources that ultimately are futile or not doc promising but that. See One of my as you know one of my mantras as it were is a dot apply a double standard. Don't apply double standard to finite an the incident lives. People screw up their finite lives in all sorts of ways they wreck their love life by watching pornography or they correct correct their love life their marriages by cheating but most people upon reflection can see. That's not going to be ultimately rewarding. That's not going to be meaningful and so don't apply a double standard in an infinite life. Actually you'd have more urban opportunity to see that you're repeating something that's empty after nine. Eleven in business of the seventy two virgins that the martyr's get Dennis Miller had a riff about that he's like seventy two virgins. I don't know the first ten or so could be fun and interesting but after that I want somebody who knows what they're doing anyway. Exactly that's a yeah. They're all sorts. You know one of the things about death and the afterlife is that we use humor And we we have to because it's scary. It's unknown known it's scary. It can induce a lot of anxiety and it's totally other. It's something totally other. And what do we do. We use humor to bring it down to Earth where you use humor in a context like this to make it less other to make it more like our ordinary human launched and so I like that but I also want to say it is interesting that the Islamic view or one way or interpreting it involves else sensual delights. which and that's the kind of thing that can keep us going in an immortal secular life the idea that we can have a repeatable repeatable pleasure so in religious views as well as secular views the idea is there are some projects and experiences that could be compelling forever and whether they be sexual or love or appreciation of beauty? Doesn't have to be high. Hi Hi art. It can just be enjoying the sunset and Enjoying taking a walk or following your favorite favorite sports team but there are pleasures and experiences. That can keep you billing and can't keep you involved. That's the way I interpret that very colorful Islamic. One of my favorite movies is ricky drove aces the invention of lying. I don't know if you ever saw that. Well worth watching so it begins I. It's a comedy but it has a you know touching deeper message to it so it begins where in this world no one can ever lie. And so there's lots of funny stuff about that and then By chance he goes to the bank to withdraw like eight thousand dollars or something and but he's only got six thousand in the bank or whatever it was and the bank teller says well. It doesn't look like you haven't do you have enough in the account. And he has this moment like yes I do okay. And then she gives them the money realize oh I can just make up something. And they'll respond accordingly so he leaves the bank and he's walking walking down the sidewalk and he comes across gorgeous woman and he says we have to have sex right now or the world's GonNa end and she says do we have time for a hotel room or should we do Stewart right here. Her Typical Guy Humor but anyway is later in the movie. His mother is dying and he's in the hospital with her and she says well what happens to me when I die hi again. He gets that moment in his face. Like okay I'M GONNA lie. And he tells her this fantastic story but like the Mormon story we each get our own on mansion and all the Great Food and all the ice cream you can eat and servants and beautiful clothes and in the mother gets beatific smile on her face and then she's gone and but then the as the movie goes on the planet's somebody over here is saying this and then a religion develops around him Eh like Moses and so the world comes to him. It's like what what else happens in this other place we go do we get. Do we get a boat. Do I get this and that you know anyway. So it's kind of funny but brings up this problem that atheists always talk about. What do you say to somebody? WHO's dying or a friend who's lost somebody and you don't want to lie Ryan say well you know they go to this other place because you're an atheist but you also want to be a Dick and say nothing? Your loved one is gone. That's it get over. I mean you you know. So what do you say I mean what do you say or whatever. How do you deal with that issue? First of all. If someone has a strong belief in the afterlife I would. I'm not trying to dissuade bedroom. I would curt support them. I would offer whatever comfort I could If someone does not believe even an afterlife I wouldn't. Brian convince them of one Because I don't believe inland but I do. I would try and there for them and loving and attentive to them in their last minutes I would would. There is a wonderful place at the universe in San Francisco associated with Uc San Francisco their medical school. It's called the Zen Hospice Spitz Program. They have an end of life kind of interest there or focus at the medical center and this Zen hospice project is beautiful. Humane at people are there and present with you and loving and It's a it's like a beautiful home home. You know. Sometimes the afterlife people will say that when we die we come home Well this is a different way of understanding it in the the last days of our lives where surrounded by love and companionship. That's what I would try and give someone at the end. I wouldn't lie. I wouldn't say something that I don't think his throat route but again I wouldn't try and dissuade someone either. That's one of the beautiful features of near death. Experiences is that it suggests Something beautiful either in the afterlife or in the way I prefer to think of it in the last phase of our lives has we are dying. There can be companionship and mentorship and guidance spy loved ones because in a near death experience Typically you are guided in journey toward the light or toured a heavenly realm by a Loveland by mentor. Loved one errands or sometimes in terms of religious figure doesn't have to be in my view we can learn about what it would be to die well and how they should treat people in that final phase from near death experiences. You don't have to believe in an afterlife to be humane and to to exhibit solidarity solidarity to be there with a person now if the individual says townie tell me am I going to suffer will be miserable. I'm likely to say I don't believe there will be any suffering. I don't think you will suffer. You've lived a beautiful life that that you can reflect on but you will not suffer in the afterlife life. I can say that truly. Yeah I agree with that and I also agree with you the way you phrase. It's the way I've always phrased it that near death. Experiences are real experiences. The empirical question is are they experiences completely in the head or did they represent something out there but we can set that aside instill acknowledged that the person had a real experience. They're not just make up and that that experience is emotionally moving. I got this from from your other book on near death experiences that it's kind of a journey that represents something that's sort of a mythic story we tell ourselves and maybe it's just the brains way of sort of biochemical transition to ease the pain or anxiety and that brings up this this this this new area of research of using these mind altering Substances as a way of dealing with depression suicidal tendencies death anxiety people that are in the last stages of life but if those has chemicals work in the brain that means a natural substance already in there for the lock and key molecular lock and key to work. Maybe evolution gave us that. This is the argument gave us this transitional stage by very important. That's very insightful. Point that you bring up Michael Poland in his new book how to change your mind long makes this kind of argument the way I would put it as near death. Experiences are just one of a set of spiritual experiences that have similar characteristics. There's a wonderful story of a LSD trip in Oliver sacks yfuusa nations not not necessarily one that he had but this was reported to him it has has all the signature features of a near death. Exactly transformative people and you're right. There's research now very promising. Riches research on the use use of psychedelic substances to treat. Depression intractable depression. PTSD depression in the face of a terminal diagnosis houses. And there's a lot it's very promising and it is a physical intervention A medication genre substance and so we can say that you can have these transcendent spiritual experiences as a result. A A physical intervention doesn't have to be contact with the heavenly realm. Now someone might say member a title of work by all this. It has been doors and I expect a palm great and some people say well. The physical intervention opens the doors of breath perception to a heavenly round. But I don't think we have to look at it this way. We can look at it as a it opens a different view. You a different perspective on the world that we inhabit this goes back. Maybe the theme of our discussion today is our human capacity to take different perspectives. And and to look at the world in different ways And in any case I I do think it's very interesting to think of near death. Experiences differences as just one kind of spiritual experience. And by the William James in his famous discussion of spiritual experiences talked about the no wetter quality. And what that means is at seems to you as real seems to you as a true experiencing. Good as is it can get in terms of the piston logical question. I have this long standing invitation to go to this place called rid me in Costa Rica where they do Iowa so you The invitations for five days of this stuff now setting aside the vomiting and all that stuff goes on but but the people that are inviting inviting me. They're fairly convinced that it is opening the door to this other world. But but if that's the only way you can get there and the only thing I can do is say it's true because I experienced it and if you did the Iowa's get you would know it's true also but then say someone like Oliver. Saks does it or reports on it and says I can't tell the difference between this narrative and that narrative and there's no test wherever gonNA run to know if it's actually out there it's just justin here then then we hit an epistemological wall. How do you go from subjective internal truths to objective external trews? There may not be away a in that same dilemma or similar dilemma. What when you posit objective meaning or objective morality than there are going to be epic stemming Urnal's like how do we all agree how we coordinate? Our behaviors Iowa has a potent Ingredient D. M. T. I believe. DFES that's a natural occuring and interestingly in near death experiences DM tea is present in higher uh-huh quantities than at normal situations in human being so D. M. T. is increase. Some people posit that as a an explanation explanation or a pop up a partial explanation of the hallucinogenic or psychedelic features of near death experiences. I think that's too simple but yes People use mushrooms. Which has suicide Vegas? I lost guy that has the M. T. they're all physical interventions preventions. Whether they point to the afterlife or I mean to heavenly round or a different realm that's more controversial and the first point to make is the super naturalists acclaim and ee is a prove. There's a handle that that's the only way to explain them. These other phenomenon show the wrong. There are other explanations but I can't disprove the idea that they opened the doors of perception. I just I don't think that's the best explanation. Yeah there's no test we're going to run to falsify the apotheosis so then we're left with. What's the best explanation inference to to the best explanation or whatever you want us to get there that may not be able to settle it ultimately and maybe that's okay? Maybe we live with that level of uncertainty. I you can't just like it's okay an ethics Orrin meaning of live as long as we don't arm each other as long as we give each other the chance to pursue our dreams and our hopes and what gives us meaning. I think that's really great. I want to emphasize nothing that I've written about near death experiences or meaning waiting in line. disproves the afterlife or shouldn't anyone I don't see how you could disproven after Lao or should even make anyone question their religious views Think about it. The the people who believe in God and practice their religions most of them do not believe on the basis of neared the ethics They believe on the on the basis of other important features so even if near death experiences are not conduit do it to religious. Bullying doesn't show that religious belief is false. So that's an yeah on the question. What do you say to somebody when they're dying and whatever it seems seems to me reasonable to say nobody knows what happens after we die and you know this is what you believe? Okay fine I can't I can't say I know for sure that you're not right right. Nobody knows and maybe we all wake up. And but this is the thing we always envision we wake up somewhere like I'm on the DM the EMT he trip. I'm envisioning my current consciousness. Wake you up in this other placing. Oh wow the colors are incredibly rich and the sounds are beautiful and everybody is great and you know whatever it is. It's probably not quite like that Ad. It's my my consciousness in my current state of being in this other place. Well that's one of the when I say death is other and when people say it's hard. Has I think you argument on some of your work. It's hard to picture yourself. It's not there. Are you. Think about death implicitly. You're thinking about myself still existing Very hard not to think that way. I I agree that's Actually that's a point that epicurious and his followers make that usually when we think of death as a bad thing where implicitly thinking of ourselves as still there may be trapped in our confidence or mouldering dangerous but you have to be clear about it according to the epicurious. You have after clear that you won't be there at all. You won't be there to suffer. Not Now I have to say if I were at someone's Dep ed which I never have been actually talking to them. I would just say I'm here for you. I love you. You have had a wonderful life. You have friends can't family. Who Cares so much about you've given so much I wouldn't even get into the field at you know? I want you to discuss that now. If they asked me explicitly I I would say I believe you're gonNA suffer. I believe you're GONNA suffer. I can't I am giving you all the love. I can't Maybe I shouldn't even say that But in any case You can't in that sense you can't experience. Death could only experience dying because their experience. Something you have to be alive. You can't experience not being alive. In some sense still exists as a conscious or experiencing Being maybe die so the interesting the uploading people I think they have to save die because your body has stopped functioning in a way that gives rise to life but you still exist and presumably. They think you could still be conscious so there you could experience the status of being dead. You know one of the standard views about death. Is you go out of existence at least according secular religious view you don't autism but on some secular abuse according to which you can be uploaded to computer you're not go out of existence so you you have to be clear about it but you know putting that aside because I think well let me just come in because here I make the distinction. It's not me I got this from somebody else between your memory self and your point of View Self so a mine upload would just just be a copy of your dome that's just your memory self but most of us want is this continuity. I want to wait like with crowning picture. I'm just waking up thousand years from now or whatever and I'm looking around going. Wow but with the with the mind low uploading the copy would be turned on. And if we did this while you're still alive. Let's say we have a sophisticated. FM Our brain scanner we copied the connect them slide. You out of the to turn it on and you're still standing there. There's just two of you now right. So you're not you're not waking up somewhere else. You're and so presumably. If you were dead you wouldn't wake up in this other place you were just it would just be somebody else like twin Win thanks will there. I am yeah and identical twin in sunset. Yeah well that's a very similar to puzzle For Animal Awesome Animal I am my animal then in certain contexts that you would see that there were too many individuals there would be ah to people. Overlapping there'd be the animal and the as it were memory person or personality person. So yeah there. Are these puzzles in my own view. You know some people say you write about free well. That's impossible hard. Yeah it is hard but I think personal identity is harder to try right figure out whether I would continue to exist if I were upload or if I had no memories or values in common with what I have not shelly. Kagan causes some of those alot novel he says you know a shelly says if I were to think of some body that exists exis- eight hundred years down the road. That has none of the memories that I now have or that of me now and has none of the values then I wouldn't exist anymore or at least I wouldn't care So there are these questions I I disagree with them. I think what we want is continuity and connectedness. Didn is not necessarily a kind of a sameness. Let me put it this way. No Double Standard Finite lives we forget and we change our. I now have no memories of having been born in Cleveland Ohio. I was born in Cleveland. Ohio at least according to the pictures I've exceeded by parents and I was maybe three years old there. I haven't zero memories but presumably I continue to exist and I know that my values change if you have a religious. You said you were born again. Yeah near values changed and people can have radical changes. I I could have a total change in all my values and still be the same individuals some but these are puzzles. That are deep at the only point I would make. There are puzzles Their puzzles about the relationship between the mind. The hard problem of consciousness puzzles about religion. But those are deep puzzles. That don't pertain specifically to immortality by a double standard because we have those problems uh-huh in our finite was here with this and other problems like the hard problem of consciousness. I like Thomas Bagels in his book. The was the last word I I think it was about. Being one thought. Too many like Cartesian argument like do I even exist. That's one thought too many. Somebody's existing to ask By exists so the the causal chain has to stop earlier one step earlier and pinker makes this point in enlightenment. Now just read you the section that I really like about the hard problem in the end. I still think that the hard problem is a meaningful conceptual problem but agree with Dan. It that it is not a meaningful scientific problem. No one will ever get a grant to study whether you are a Zombie. or whether the same captain Kirk walks on the deck of the enterprise and the surface of Zach Dorn and I agree with several other. Philosophers is that it may be futile to hope for a solution at all precisely because it is a conceptual problem or more accurately a problem with our concepts as S. Thomas Nagel put it famous essay. What it's like to be a bet? There may be facts which could not ever be represented or comprehend by human beings even if the species lasted forever ever simply because our structure does not permit us to operate with concepts of the requisite type and then he goes on a little bit more about Colin Mcginn. And so so on. And he says our best science tells us that consciousness consists of a global workspace representing our current goals memories and surroundings implemented in synchronize neural firing in frontal frontal parietal circuitry but the last dollop in the theory that it's objectively feels like something to be such circuitry may have to be stipulated stipulated as a fact about reality where explanation stops I'm inclined to agree with that. General Perspective explanation in has to stop somewhere that was continuously and right. There are at the other thing I would say as there are scientific questions in their questions. The the art scientific Meaning in general is not a scientific matter. The meaningfulness of activities are live or the nature of love. Yeah Yeah you can find that once someone loves someone else. There oxytocin levels are higher. That's not having higher. oxytocin levels is a love it may be correlated similarly pain. There may be places in your brain that are more active when you have pain but that actively the itself is not a pain is something. That's not strictly A scientific issue. It might be that whenever I'm paying. My Brian is innocent state but in mind that's different from than up in this or the concept of paint certainly are what it feels like to be in vain but it feels like to be in bed maybe different for each person and they're different kinds of pain But that's not just a scientific question famously. Isley at yeah so one thing we have to keep in mind in philosophy they say it's childlike and not childish although sometimes we can be taught childlike in that we ask questions that with a child they they don't know where to stop they they say why. Why why and whenever you answer? They'll say okay. Why did want one of the things we need to know when to stop is a philosophical question on what isn't or it is a scientific question in one when isn't and you can in have to one thought? Too many Bernard Williams famously talked about you. See your wife drowning. And you think about the categorical oracle imperative Oh you jump. In and think to have some broad about ethics media are intermediate. That's one got too many. I agree It got maturity maybe intellectual maturity consistent par in knowing when the stock. That's it's not to stop too soon. Right right yeah well. It seems like issues like that free will problem conscious instead of thousands of years old. Maybe they can't ever be resolved their mysterious mysteries either. The conceptual problems. Our brains aren't big enough for their wired in a way that we can't conceive talking about this when I was writing that section in Heaven's on Earth about imagining what it's like to be dead. You can't imagine that same thing I wrote a paper on why there's something rather than nothing so i. I read everything. People were writing about that. So imagine there's no universe so okay there's no stars planets and people and so on but but there wouldn't even be any space time in which the planets and galaxies and so on and there wouldn't be any light and I'll just read you rob Kuhn's the way he puts it in his book that he wrote on this so so not just emptiness not just blackness and not just emptiness and blackness forever but not even the existence assistance of emptiness and not even the meaning of blackness and no forever at some point we use these words like we understand them at it and the concept is never falls off the page. Like I can't imagine nothing. It's a very good point. It's the I wouldn't attend to be gavel to really resolve it. I would say this. I know you've interviewed column again. He's another one of these mysterious believes that our minds are so structured that they can't necessarily can't comprehensive Nana that may the end. Turn out to be true but I would like to push. Oh Shit as far as I can. That's what I'd like to say with free. Will I think we can get farther than a Lotta people think and weaken be nuanced and in the end ended. There will still be mysteries. But I don't think I think we can make progress on thinking of and We shouldn't give up too early because even if in the end. We don't get to the result where you want to. Initially we may get to other results that are eliminating helpful. One of the best arguments for crowning honest. Have heard it's like it'd be fun to come back and five hundred years and see what it turned out to be like. Oh dark energy and dark matter. Oh that was this all. Why didn't we see this uh-huh or moral issue? No eight animals back then. Oh how gross you know. It's like yeah. Of course we ain't animals well that yeah. That's very interesting. Yeah we presumably Donnelly will the gray differently and five hundred years about things that we now tape to be true. We perhaps will will not take to be true and that it'd be fascinating. Yeah it'd be fascinating to wake up five hundred years from now and say. Hey there you know the fundamental constituents of the universe universe are But there will also be a lot of problems with the the fact that our memories won't be as it were continuous us our states of consciousness. But still you know. This reminds me of a position that the Berkeley Philosophy Shannon Schifrin has and Matt is one of the terrible things about our finetune is that we can't achieve justice and Donna if you have that project of helping to achieve justice been death would at least cut that off in the end. She is not a fan of immortality body. But I think it's an interesting way of looking at it. It's different from the people who focus on Missing out on pleasures and your own himself focused projects drawing. We've been going for ninety minutes. I think we've covered most of the the big super super important topics really interesting topics must be fun to get paid to write about this stuff. Well I guess I do sort of a professional at death immortality and meaning in life is is the new book I also from Oxford. University press just came out this month previously near death experiences understanding visions of the afterlife. And so thank thanks so so much for giving us your wisdom inside a really appreciate it. Okay thank you I. I really appreciate it as well.

US WanNa John Rawls Theresa William Lane Craig Harry Frankfurt Dan Dan Oxford University Press Christopher Hitchens Yale Rick Warren Professor Stalin China Sam Harris John Martin Fischer Michael Sherman John Templeton Foundation Shelley Shelly
Episode 2 Teaching: Why Worship? (NLW Podcast)

Next Level Worship Podcast

05:42 min | 1 year ago

Episode 2 Teaching: Why Worship? (NLW Podcast)

"Welcome to the next level worship radio broadcast where we learn what it means to worship God with our lines for war formation and resources visit next level worship DOT com. Now here is today's teaching. Hello everybody this is John Martin. The director of ministries for next level worship. I'm so grateful that you're able to join us for today's program. I want to begin by asking a question now. Let me preface the question with this not testing. There's no right or wrong answers but I just want you to think about it and give your true heartfelt answer when you hear the word worship. What do you think of for you? What is worship now? If we were able to be together some of you may have said. Oh I love singing hymns or I think about lifting my hands are I love to dance for the glory of God. I would just tell you that all of those answers are correct. You could have said I enjoy cooking a meal for my family or spending time in the yard working. Those would have been correct as well because Paul Road in First Corinthians chapter ten in verse. Thirty one whether you eat are drink or whatever you do do it. All for the glory of God in other words every action take every thought we think all of us should be done for God's glory. All of us should come underneath the umbrella of worship but I want us to spend a couple of moments thinking about the topic of worship specifically. I want us to look at the why and the of worship Romans Chapter twelve verses one and two says I beseech you brothers by the mercy of God's that you present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto him. Which is your reasonable act of worship. And that you'd not be conformed to this world but that you'd be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you can prove that which is the good acceptable and perfect will of God. Paul begins that passage with the word therefore and anytime we see the word therefore in scripture we need to discover what therefore is therefore. Our clue lies in the phrase where Paul says that it's in view of God's mercy are by the mercies of God. The first part of Romans is all about God's Love His mercy. His grace his redemption in chapters one through eleven of Romans Paul lays out that doctrinal foundation for Christianity versus one in two of chapter twelve or the transitional versus where Paul moved from a doctrinal rotation if you will to a more practical demonstration of what Christianity should look like and the transition that he uses to spell out. This is what worship is all about. It's in the light of God's grace and love that Paul calls us to worship. It's because of grace that we can worship therefore I live therefore I see therefore I proclaim the words to an old forgotten song from the early nineteen hundred. Say at best. Would you know why Christ is my song? He redeemed me. He redeemed me. Why is he my joy all day long? He redeemed me. He redeemed me. Would you know why praise his name? And why I seek to spread his pay. He redeemed me. He redeemed me. You see each and every one of us who have experienced firsthand the redeeming power of Jesus. Christ we ought to be on our feet praising him and proclaiming his love we should give to him are all and we should make certain that whether we're eating where we're drinking where they were sleeping. Whatever it is that we're doing that we're doing it all to proclaim his glory and to worship hand you see that's the answer to. Why do we worship? We worship? Because of God's grace we worship because God loves us and that is what allows us to love him. And I'm going to tell you that when it comes to worship the how doesn't matter until you. I understand the why and the why of worship is because of the mercy and the love of money you've been listening to the next level worship radio broadcast of production of next level worship international our ministry decides Christians and Helps Churches around the world to experience true biblical worship for resources and help visit next level worship dot com or our facebook page at next level worship International.

Paul John Martin director facebook
December 17, 2019: Margaret Martin Disappears

Today in True Crime

12:15 min | 1 year ago

December 17, 2019: Margaret Martin Disappears

"Today is Tuesday December seventeenth two thousand nineteen on this day in nineteen thirty. Thirty eight Margaret Martin went to meet a mysterious man for a job interview. It was the last time she was seen alive. Her body turned up four days later and her killer was never found. Welcome to today and true crime. Apar- cast original due to the graphic nature of today's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual violence that some listeners may find. Offensive extreme caution is advised for listeners under thirteen today. We're covering the disappearance of Margaret Martin a nineteen year old business school graduate. Let's go back to Pennsylvania on on the morning of December seventeenth when she received a phone call the changed her life forever. In the cold winter calm was shattered by the phone. Ringing in the Martin's Luzerne County. Home Home Margaret Rush to pick it up. She didn't recognize the voice at the other end of the line. It was a man. He was well spoken but other than that. His vocal characteristics were difficult to discern. She asked the man what he wanted. He responded calmly. He wanted her. He was starting a business and needed to employ some secretaries. Over the holidays it was the type of work. She was perfectly perfect qualified for in fact her name had been put forward by Wilkes. Bear Business College where she had graduated from just seventeen days. He's earlier. Margaret was delighted that her college recommended her so soon after her graduation the prospect of gainful employment was so tempting thing. She did not bother to ask the man's name instead. She asked when he was conducting interviews as a matter of fact he said breath was interviewing people that day in Kingston corners. Margaret was floored by her luck. That neighborhood was only a short walk from her parents home. They agreed that they would meet their that afternoon. The railed Margaret Hung up the phone and went to her room to prepare. The pink and white bedroom was sparse in its layout. Just as Margaret liked it. She had firmed values and lived. Lived them the only decorations were three pictures of Biblical figures and of framed wartime photo of her father she left. There are two story Yellow House soon after telling her mother. I'll be right back. She did not return a woman matching. Her description was seen on the streets of Kingston that afternoon but she was not alone. She was accompanied by a mysterious gentleman in a brown suit. The man who was later assumed to be her kidnapper was described by witnesses as sandy-haired between twenty five and thirty years of age and slightly overweight. He was well spoken and significantly taller than Margaret Martin. The man lead Margaret to his car and allowed her to get in. He was not seen using force of any kind. However as soon as the doors of the black coupe closed Margaret? Martin was never seen alive again. Four days later on December twenty twenty first nineteen thirty eight a body wrapped in a burlap sack was found under a bridge over. Keillor's Berg Creek. The the body was that of Margaret. Martin she was naked and badly mutilated. Whoever killed her appeared to have successfully attempted tempted to dissect her the case was ruled? A homicide almost immediately and police scoured the area for clues beyond the witness testimony. No leads were forthcoming. If the police didn't act soon Margaret Martin's murderer would get away scot it. Free will discuss the mystery surrounding Margaret Martin's death after this today in true crime is supported by better help online counseling people often portray their happiest self to others. Whether it's at work work or on social media we often make it appear that we have everything figured out but a lot of times. We don't I know that I don't and if you're like me it's not always always easy to ask for help and find counseling. This is where better help can help you. Better help offers. Licensed counselors who specialize in a variety of issues including depression and anxiety as well as trauma anger family relationships and so many others. And if finding a counselor that lives close to you has been an issue. Better help allows you to connect privately with your counselor through text chat phone and video calls. You can get help at your own pace and on your own time and best of all you can get help. At an affordable rate today in true crime listeners will get ten percent off their first month with discount. Discount Code today in true crime. That's better help dot com slash today in true crime. Why not get help? Better help dot com slash today in true crime now. Back to the story Margaret Martin. Martin was last seen alive on December Seventeenth Nineteen thirty eight in Kingston Pennsylvania. Four days later she was found around in a creek about twenty five miles away from her home. She had bruises around her throat. And several deep cuts on her limbs seemingly Mingli attempts at dissection an inch of fresh snow meant finding footprints or any other trace. Evidence would be difficult. Still Still Seventy five state troopers were deployed to search the surrounding area for any clues about her disappearance Margaret's. The parents were distraught but found solace in their faith according to her father. John Martin we do not want vengeance we we know there is a divine justice. They believed that whoever their daughters murderer was would suffer for his crimes one way or another another the Pennsylvania state police on the other hand did not wanNA leave this case up to divine judgment judgment and their investigations saw some early successes in the days immediately following the murder. They found clothing. That matched what Margaret it was wearing when she disappeared the clothes were recovered in the steam. Boiler of an abandoned sawmill. They had been partially burned. Officers also investigated several suspects including a pair of men who reportedly lured a sixteen year old girl to a hotel room intending intending to sexually assault her but despite many promising leads. No suspects could be tied to Margaret Martin's murder. By a Christmas Eve. The successes started to run dry law enforcement. Officers even attended Margaret's funeral to look for for anyone suspicious but this also turned up no leads in response to public frustration about the lack of progress in the case Pennsylvania. Senator Leo See. Monday proclaimed that he would introduce a bill requiring registration of all convicted sex sex offenders. He acted on this. Within days of Margaret's murder certain it could help solve the crime but as the years there's dragged on the case grew cold four years after the murder a twenty one year. Old Man named Orbin Taylor confessed to Margaret Martin's murder however after ten hours of investigation and thorough questioning. His claim was dismissed as false to date. The case is still open but no new evidence has been introduced in decades AIDS. It's unlikely that it will ever be solved. Even if more forensic investigation techniques had existed at the time they they would have been largely unhelpful in solving this murder due to the weather conditions and paltry witness evidence on top of this most. Do the tools we use to protect people from anonymous phone calls nowadays phone tracing. GPS and caller ID just did not exist in the nineteen thirties. Margaret Martin a deeply religious and studious girl described by her mother. As was a living saint had little reason to suspect that the promising phone call was summoning her to her demise and whoever the killer was he is likely long dead even if new techniques could solve the case it would only provide. A curious is answer. It would not lead to any justice all that the descendants of Margaret Martin can hope for is the divine justice justice. John Martin insisted was coming for the man who killed his daughter. Thanks for listening today in true. Crime I'm Vanessa. Richardson if you WanNa hear more about the disappearance of Margaret Martin listen to our episodes of unsolved murders on the topic. Today in true crime is a podcast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not only does spotify already. Have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy. Enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today and true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream today and true crime on spotify. Just open the APP and type today in true crime in the search bar at podcast. Were grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at par cast network. We'll be back with a brand new episode episode tomorrow in True Crime. Today and true crime was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cobbler. Sound design by Andy Weights with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Freddie Beckley. This episode of today and true crime was written by Robert Teams. Draw with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon. I'm Vanessa Richardson

Margaret Martin Margaret Margaret Rush Margaret Hung murder Pennsylvania John Martin John Martin spotify Luzerne County Vanessa Richardson Apar Yellow House Bear Business College Kingston corners Kingston Wilkes depression facebook
Pop-Punk & Pizza #145: Hangtime & Dental Records

Bangarang Radio: A Podcast Network

1:03:50 hr | 3 months ago

Pop-Punk & Pizza #145: Hangtime & Dental Records

"My friend dave gomez has cancer if you're active in chicago pop punk scene. You most likely know who i'm talking about. He's been in such bands as super fry. Plastic smiles and night terrors. And a bunch of chicago. Area bands are coming together to help dave cover some of the costs of his cancer treatment by putting out a compilation called gomez and the compilation is available for preorder. Right now at dave gomez benefit comp dot band camp dot com and the comp includes tim rodber of alastair till morning guardrail. Hi ho and several others. And they're all covering songs by some of dave's favorite bands. Dave was there for us when we needed him. Whether it was going to our shows or being on our podcast and now it's time for us to be there for him so preorder this incredible compilation today. At dave gomez benefit comp dot band camp dot com. Thank you gotta go on the on the radio so the an aloe pop punk. Pumpkin pizza jock. L'amour yoyo hope he had a weekend. I spent a lot of time working on podcast stuff over the weekend. So i definitely can't complain. I had a fantastic weekend and hopefully it was the same for you which reminds me though This is the last week for you to enter for a chance to win a pop punk and pizza hoodie. Everyone that signs up for our mailing list in january is automatically entered for a chance to win a nice warm cozy pop. Pumpkin pizza hoodie. So make sure you head over to pop. Punk pizza pond dot com and sign up for our mailing list. All right So today's episode is kind of a split episode. You could say we have worn gregson who was one of the vocalists and guitarists of melodic punk band. Hang time on the show today and then we have john martin of dental records now. A dental records is the label. Hang time is signed to and warren is actually a part ownership of the label as well so we talk about hank times latest vinyl release and how the creation of dental records came to be because it is a fairly new record label. Only i think A year or two at most something along those lines. Also john of dental records. He's a he's also a promoter. Like a show promoter and it was interesting to hear his story on how he booked shows and such in canada. He told me what it was like booking as for show and and how he thought it was going to be a smash success and it wasn't didn't exactly pan out the way thought it would So it's just you know it's always interesting to hear those stories. I feel like so. Let's go ahead and get into it. John martin of dental records and warren gregson of hang time to a city. So welcome john and welcome morin. Both of you guys have been amazing. Supporters and of the podcast Through being sponsors. And so like first and foremost. I just have to say thank you for buying a consistent or buying like a chunk of episodes to sponsor the podcast because it helps you know helps me cover my costs for the podcast and so the end. That goes a long way. So i really appreciate that so i just wanna start off by saying thank you for your support as well. Yeah of course and i was telling. I was telling john warren before we got on. I was just talking to a listener last night. And they were telling me they can't get too many days out of their head like it's just stuck in his get stuck in my head all the time to all i have to hear. Is that beginning of the song. And i'm hooked like i'm just. I'm going to start humming that melody the rest of the day like it's it's bound to happen like i'm it's in my head right now. Actually as we speak. All i have to do is say it. S attempt at using a beatles formula starting with the chorus. I mean can't it's one of my favorite song. Writing formulas is starting with the chorus. And that is something. That i don't know i guess many genres of music but especially punk and pop hunkin and like pop music. A lot of them start with the chorus. I mean yeah for sure. I'm the it's usually that or some little risk the beginning and And it usually comes back to it right somewhere. Surges coming back to a course but it'll work in the short on like that. Yeah exactly or five minutes in probably not right. That's that's a different story but but you know this is punk rock so most i mean most i most punk bands. Don't put out five minute song. I mean i guess it does happen. I'm trying to think of now. I can't even think of one off the top of my head can you. You think of a five minute punk song not really either anyways right. Yeah but now. I'm curious if i'm sure there is. I just can't think of one. At least we had longer ones like about ten years ago or songs were like four and a half and then that's when we kind of a conscious decision to kinda gone. Just cut the fat a little bit. You know you don't necessarily need guitar solo. You don't necessarily need another chorus at the end. You don't need those types of things just You know then it gets a little monotonous in you kind of ruin. What could have been a good thing. Yeah well you know just depends on what you're going for two so I mean i. I like a lot of hang time. You know 'cause that that was that's like my. I guess it's because that's my personal. Songwriting style myself. When i'm writing songs it's just very simple straight to the point easy to play get stuck in your head right away kind of thing also number one. This will stand the test of time usually. Yeah good point. Good point so i should i. I'm i'm getting a ahead of myself. I probably should've had you guys introduce yourself. So people know like when john is talking that oh this is john and then when warren's talking oh okay that's what warren sounds like so go ahead and just quickly introduce yourself time. I play guitar and sing and and go ahead. John john from dental records and hang time is the the only band currently on our small label that we've just started up recently and i've worked with them and got to know them for quite a while. So that's sort of how war war and i can come discharged dental records. Okay so since you bring that up. Let's go ahead and dive into into that. How are you just. Are you in warren old friends that just decided to get together and start this label. No not What we're old. But i didn't mean like that but no i i started out. I met hang time. 'cause i actually book. I'm a promoter booker. In my town that i live in. I'm in ontario. Canada and hang. Time was one of the vans that i started booking and got to know them a little bit obviously through them playing at some of my shows that i would have at a regular venue that i book shows at and Obviously liked what i heard and they're just down to earth. Nice guys good musicians good band and so gets to know them a little bit better. And they asked me. If i'd be interested in working with them in terms of booking them actively booking them for shows because i've got to know a lot of different people over the years Promoters bands in different places around canada and elsewhere as well to just for networking. I bands from all over. The world rarely the states an everywhere over the world. And if i'd be interested started in booking them in perhaps even managing as i was interested in that i'd never really done that before So it was just sort of a good opportunity to try something new with them and we've just sort of been working closely with that with the goal of really trying to get their music out to as many people as possible like different blogs and sites and podcast and and that sort of thing have got like i said. I've got to know a lot of people all over the world who have different and blogs and just really wanna promote them and get their music out there get their videos out there and so that's really what we've been doing. I guess for Guess around two years now really is what we've been doing how long we've been doing that for together. Go ahead warren. Just going to say not say it's been great. I mean Since john's been on board it's made things a lot easier for us. He initially had a lot more connections than we did. Like even shows and it just. It took a lot of our plate. We are more focused on just trying to get recording and playing shows rehearsing getting things. Polish that way It's tough it honestly is tough when you're expected to do everything so someone comes along like john and help then yeah. Of course we're gonna take. Yeah i mean especially when it comes to pushing out a vinyl release you know. There's a lot to go into that. And i failed to mention that earlier when i was talking about your your sponsorship for pop punk in pizza but dedicated listeners. Already know you know that hang. Time has a brand new vinyl record out And it's actually two of your most recent epa's put onto one Twelve inch and Invasion and destroy both amazing. Ep's if you're into quick fast tempo melodic punk rock done very well. By the way i might add. I'm sure i probably send that already. But i can't say it enough and yeah of putting that altogether because there's cost involved logistics. It's like okay. How do we market this thing. Yeah that has been a bit of a challenge We oddly enough. I mean twenty twenty was pretty terrible for everybody but it ended up being the busiest year. We've ever had When kobe started. I guess when we got indication that it was going to start towards the end of march We were just finishing up the reporting for destroy. And then we heard that the studio was gonna shut down and We lucked out. We literally got refinished up the last day of bass tracks and the next day. The studio shutdown managed to get ep recorded so that was a that saved us a lot so from that point on we ended up ten videos last year so taking in the recorded and released the ep. All in twenty twenty Maybe a couple of shows two or three shows the beginning of the year before they shut down but Having done all that we thought you know what. Let's just do this as just busy. It seemed like everyone else was sort of standing still waiting for kobe. Dan so i mean what do you do you kind of do the opposite trying. Keep putting out releasing singles releasing a lyric video. Dan basically music video for the same song three weeks later and we just kept doing that over and over and over for four months until the actual release of the which is september twenty fifth. But yeah so it. It kept us busy than immediately after that. We thought you know what now what we can't tour to support this. We can't really do anything other than trying to stay active social media and tell people about it and hopefully the air it So what are you gonna do. We've always wanted to put out vinyl also figure out a way to vinyl. You know. I mean we're not playing shows for a lot of us are staying at home so stomach expenses are lower. You're working from home so easier that way but true. Yeah let's just But suck it up and put vinyl so we started the label the label put it on that so we didn't we thought well let's just take the last two and see if they fit on vital check the times and sure enough stable fed. Yeah that's always the thing that can be a certain amount of time quality with too long a side on your so. Yeah so it worked in the okay. Let's do it. So i mean trying to stay say okay and in this climate. Let's record a full album. Release that it's just such an undertaking to save. We're gonna do twelve or fifteen songs and release. It's it's a single seems to be the single climate now right so I don't wanna put up fifteen songs that we work hard at on on one release in a lot of those songs will get lost and forgotten. Writes the almost each one of them individually. If you're proud of you think there were the end. So we're doing maybe released every song off the destroy ups a single and then released the ep so it was no surprise. Everybody heard all the songs came out. Here it isn't one package of turning. Yeah yeah i've actually that that's a growing trend as well if a band is going to release an ep or an album though literally release every song as a single in some shape or form. Whether it's you know four weeks apart or six weeks apart or eight weeks apart whatever it is and then at the end it's like here. It is on vinyl or whatever you know whatever they decide to do with it so that seems to be the maybe the possibly new way to do a full length record. Yeah it is. I don't i don't know how new it is. It's a lot genres doing it for a long time but as far as pacos. It's more and more singles in ep. You can most bands can throw together four to six songs quality songs. Their best songs pretty quick and get them recorded without too much aggravation. But when you say like i say twelve to fifteen takes a lot of work. I mean if you're songs or if you're you know you're really worried about your production sound and everything getting the imperfect than it's gonna take time a lot of pre production a lot of preparation. You're not just running into the studio for a weekend and turn off and expecting it to be mazing so it takes time that many songs. So that's what i figured. Ep probably bs from now on. I know in the singles and just hope for that. Sorta formula number most working for other people as well so you. Maybe if you're a band that has their own studio in work. At that way then you can be recording every day on your own but we don't really have access. A lot of people are are doing that. Yeah they're recording their stuff separately and then it just all comes together. They might record each. You know the the drummer's recording at his house and then the vocalist is recording at his house and vice versa. And then they'll just hire an engineer to put it all together and mix it. That may be a way of the future for sure. We don't know what's going to happen this year. We don't know about shows you know you're releases rarely so yeah. We may have to consider that. Yeah yeah. I think that's definitely become more. And more of an option and the last year for for artists and probably continuing into this year as well and speaking of shows i mean john a you kind of have your. You obviously have your foot in that door with shows. What's the the latest that i mean as far as what's going on with shows in your area and ontario. Let's it right now. There is nothing right now. I'm in there hasn't really been since last year since when this saul started There was times when some of the venues clubs or whatever would have opened for a little bit of time but there was not even any live music during that time and limited capacity but actually just recently. I believe it was just two days ago. Maybe a ontario was gone into a lockdown. Where those sorts of establishments aren't even open anymore so the venues are even open right now at all only Places that would serve food could deal for takeout and that's really about it so really at right now is just. There is absolutely nothing yet. I wasn't sure like what what ontario's state of covid nineteen you guys were at because i know like i just read the other day Quebec was in a lockdown. But i wasn't sure about seven similar to quebec. They actually have a curfew. We're at after a certain time at night. You can't go out we have. We don't have that but we have a stay at home order where pretty much pretty much. Everything is closed And it's suggested that you stay home so it's it's essentially the same but in terms of cases are cases are worse now than they were a year ago so yes or nine months ago i should say but yeah we're certainly a physician where we were worse off than we were eight nine months ago when it started so disappointing and frustrating. So i mean being i know. I'm assuming promoter is that was that your full-time gig or oh no no. No i have a regular office type job and that was something more of a hobby. Actually it was just something. Yeah which is something more of a hobby. 'cause i've been a longtime fan of punk music just independent music in general and i never strangely enough. I never really got into being a musician. Gus from hang time for whatever reason. I did for a little bit but not really anything where the it's strange i was. I was always more interested in all the other aspects of it like the promotion aspect of it. And when i started booking shows i really enjoyed it for for a variety of reasons i still do But truthfully with relations dental records of wanting to maybe start a label. That's always something. I thought might be fun. But i never really thought it would be serious but it was always all those nineties labels that really inspired me and where the where the the labels that really got me into music fat records and epitaph and lookout records. Those were the big ones where i saw them. Start from and again. It was just you know effects label or bad religion's label so it's a similarity not this or hang time. Whatever be in that same category but it's just similar when you're a band. Why not do it for yourself. Have your own involvement. Take control of your own affairs rather than relying on somebody else to do that. you know and if things happen go well in time you're in you have more control so it's always good to be in that position but it was always those early labels that got me in so many other people into Power can just seeing how the all these new bands and really were really. Were a lot of the the classic bands of today came from where those labels so the thought of just maybe perhaps being able to contribute to to that in some small way. It's a it's nice. Hopefully something comes of it. I'm sure i'm sure something will come of it for you. That sounds like you guys have a great start a strong start. I mean obviously you chose a great band to start working with Was so was. John was the the label idea yours. And you're just kinda like hey warren. Would you be interested in this. Like being a part of this. No i think it's i think it was actually a warrant idea. I think it's something. I always had in my head but i never really communicated to anybody and i think he will. He's actually the one that had that idea in his head in the soon as he said that i sort of jumped right on it and said jeez i really liked to really liked to work with you on something like that The war and i think you're the one that actually you really did have the idea. I'm not even really sure how long you had the name game plan behind it. So we'll take on the world. Was there a dentist in your family. Dental records comes from the cool name. I thought i was going to design a cooler logo for it but luckily there's no dental records in canada. So there is. Isn't there a dental records somewhere though or is it even a record label. I've seen a couple of different social media sites. I think that hasn't been active. Sure about seven or eight years so yeah you don't have to really worry about them. I think now worst-case any cease and desist will become something you'll have to change like dental something records or just a different name completely. What's at the real dental records. Every there you go coach the the second dental records the dental care records dental punk records. Yeah sure what it would be cool to have. I'm sure you could do like like you could end up doing like a shirt someday with like a punk looking dude on it him smiling and like missing a tooth something like that. You know cracking a smile. Got a missing tooth. I don't know. I guess i was just trying to put the dental. Part in their ad-hoc maybe but that's a whole nother. I'm going off on tangents so warren when when it came time to talk to john about this and you started didn't like just like doing research. What were some things that you learned about that. You didn't realize about a record label or something. You got completely wrong or honestly. We're just kind of working out distribution and other countries. We're finding that it's a challenge. Just chipping expensive I mean we can handle shipping within canada We have say ten records in states that are taking care of the us for us Because it's very cheap ship down there for him and or is europe. I mean we're still responsible for shipping to europe. But it's it's expensive. It's almost the same price as the vinyl itself so while it's not understand rob racing. How many orders when its upwards you know fifty dollars for a vinyl. That's you know It's a bit of a risk that way. So it'd be nice to get some european distribution and which were working on anyway so it s as well so it's contacts for tipping. You know trying to get commitments from other people here. So how does i mean you obviously don't have to tell me like the all the details of the deal but like when it does come to okay like you got say ten records involved with this which i did place my order through. Say ten by the way. I know you saw my facebook comment. But you know since i'm in the us. I was like okay. Well i'll order from say ten and Like how does that work when you're a label yourselves but you're trying to work with other labels to also sell the record across promotion thing to right and We he placed an order with us of how many units he wanted and We agreed on a price. Spare and We ship to him but actually the manufacturer ship directly to him and We had some inserts and stickers and little goodies. We wanted to have him put in Which i mailed to him three weeks ago and of course the. Us mail still hasn't gotten to them yet so you probably didn't get those in yours. I haven't even got my vinyl yet. So i mean maybe maybe when it shows up it will be there i dunno. I think it'll be funny because usually the mail comes later in the afternoon. I think it'd be kind of funny if after we're done with this interview i go check my mail and there's record the inside of a week before christmas. And he's those gotha state but is what it is but yeah so that's kind of how that works and he's taken care of it and He'll seldom on his end for whatever he wants to. And also for what we're selling them for and you know we would do the same for another label you know maybe from europe that wanted to do a record himself. The people here out works that Yeah i mean those are the one the main thing right. now we're having a struggle with is just the european distribution and Just dealing with high shipping costs are. They're labels that. Are you having a hard time. Just striking a conversation with the label in in europe johnson kind of networking more. Than i had on that People that interested. Thank you just have to figure out how much how many wants and you know again on a crisis in the shipping would be to send your pricing. Not right a lot. Yeah it's not that the conversations are that are I found anyways timing With covid it's it's not the opportune time and that's for a few reasons I mean a lot of labels have already planned there. you know twenty. Twenty one releases. They would have planned on last year so they already have released a scheduled already and perhaps they aren't having as a good of a year sales wise as they would have expected last year because of covid either through their bands not being able to tour and sell their vital at shows which is a big thing so yeah or or just the fact that a lot of people You know have been hard hit financially by covid so possibly not spending as much as they typically would on on nonessential items like merch. That's another thing so a lot of said Yeah we really like the the really liked the ap's And we'd be very interested but you know we're financially. We're just a bit of a bit of a crunch and we've already committed to certain things that we have to fulfil so it's it's hard to go out and get into something else. Things were different. It probably would be there for but but at least the album did just come very recently so we still do have a lot of time. We're happy with that I met adam from say. Ten records vary randomly. And i was very surprised. He was as interested as quickly as he was. So that was good at being a canadian band that hang time as That's never been to the states to play Obviously you want to get some traction in the biggest market in the world you want to So hopefully this is a step police starting step in the right direction by someone who has been putting a good releases and seems to have a good fan base of his own in terms of people who support his label and in the punk community. So so yeah. I think it's a good first step into a nice nice partnership against the support each other. Did you meet adam from satan records. I just met him in some facebook group about something about punk labels or something like that and it was just like post your label or labels you like or something and i just posted warning label blah blah blah and. He just commented and said something like. Oh that's good. You know good name good for you. Congratulations and i think either. He message me privately. I message him Thanks for the thanks for that. Whatever and i just introduced hang time to him. Basically then within a few days we sort of figured out that there'd be some mutual interest there so that's awesome. That's really great. Especially since you know. Say ten has been around for a little while. Yeah that's right. And i noticed them before so i was very enthusiastic about that. So and Yeah he's got some great bands put out and your emerge so's pretty pretty good. Yeah that's that's awesome and it just goes to show you never know what's gonna happen on social media you never know what's gonna form from it you know. Let's it. yeah that's great. So i guess i'll ask you the same question. John that asks more in a little while ago. What have you learned about. You know a record label or starting a record. Record label sense dental records as Started up here. I know you're still kind of in the beginning stages but you know what. What kind of research have you done. Or what kind of research have you found. Yeah i don't know over doing a lot of hard research truthfully We're we're figuring this out as we go along we're at the stage it's not. It's not as if it's you know such a quote unquote business that it's a life or death matter still really as a hobby for both of us for myself for the band. We both have day jobs so whatever does or does not happen with this label. It's not really going to have any impact on us personally. So it's it's really more for fun but yet just learning that just learning trying to figure out what to do anything and everything to get out there in front of people. Because you know it's great that you have a labeling you have a ban that has a record but there's just so many others that already do that in the grand scheme of it. Nobody really cares all that much. So you just have to start a stay focused and keep your expectations real and try not to get defeated by the fact that most as not a lot of people are going to be overly excited That's why it's really the job to try to introduce them to to the band into the label when we started We released a compilation very quick very soon after starting the label and it was a compilation of not bands. That are on the label. Actually not really of many bands that that neither of us knew personally there was a couple other than hang time But it was just sort of wanted to put out a compilation just because again. That's something that i'm used to that. We're used to from the ninety s with all of our favourite labels putting out compilations bands and as a way to really introduce people to bands. And i noticed that. I'm sure it's the same everywhere but i noticed ontario that a lot of small labels put out a compilations just with ontario bans. And that's great. That's that's fine and good and there's lots of good ontario just like there's lots of good bands in new york and just like there's lots of good bands in chicago or france or anywhere else but we didn't really want to do a compilation just with bands of where we were from. Only because we just felt it wouldn't have the potential wouldn't be quite as good to reach a good cross section of people so really in terms of canadian bands. We have another toronto band at a montreal band but other than that. We found bands from the states From israel from sweden From all over the place really the ukraine and it was just a matter of trying to find bands that i knew that i liked and i hadn't seen on everybody else's compilations and again not hoping for any not having any great expectations but hoping well at least if this ban from the ukraine that i like at least if i they probably have some fans i'm sure well if some of those fans could exposed to hang time or wasting time from toronto and then may be banned from the states they obviously have supporters and friends and fans while some of them get interested in a band from sweden or a band from montreal or toronto. That's good so it sort of thinking. Well good if all the bands the fans out those bands in friends and fans can tap in and sort of be introduced to other bands that they may be wouldn't tip introduced to otherwise than that's sort of how will start in. See if see if we have some success that way. So do you have. Some releases are or some other artists that you're currently working with that are going to be coming out anytime in the future. We don't at this moment no I've talked to a few artists. Just visit nothing. Nothing really serious at all but no at this moment. We don't have anything planned. We do plan to have a second compilation coming out very soon. Likely the end of january early february so it probably be very very shortly getting that rolled to another compilation just very similar to the first one across section of bands from really all over the world. That's awesome love that idea. I guess. Maybe i i'm i'm like you i mean i. I discovered a lot of my favorite bands from starting or growing up when i was like eight or ten. You know starting to get interested in rock music and punk music and you know i remember. That's how i discovered. I think mx px in a band called catch twenty two. You know. i'm. I'm trying to think of what others i discovered from comps. But yeah just yeah just to name a few So warren getting back to you and and hang time the So both like. I have mentioned both of your latest. Gp's invasion and destroy our on this one lp and They obviously the names kind of fall in line in an order. And so i feel like this had been done on purpose and i could be wrong but like it's very co cohesive. I really love. The artwork vary like cartoony and kind of like fun but also like dooms. The you know like the the world's ending kind of thing that's wreck guitar player and singer in the band rented that he's done all the already did our our p. rectus melodious which was toward Invasion and has a similar cover is just basically the band on the cover the post apocalyptic and that's where the only thing that's left and it's kind of a story that he's slowly telling so i guess only he knows what's next so those basically in beijing we're invading the town now destroy. A show destroyed the town. We're leaving so we'll see. We'll see what the next so what's next resurrection. Well we'll see. I think it's something similar Or what yeah. I don't know what would come after. I mean you've destroyed. Everything at this point was in rise so so is that just telling a story with the art work or is there actually some kind of loose concept in the music as well. No definitely not. it's i didn't think so nothing to do with it really at all. So that's that's the the odd part about it. I guess you could sit here is on. I mean it definitely helps visually. When like when someone's just checking you out for the first time and maybe they're scrolling through your spotify or your band camp or whatever it is and they'll see you know obviously destroys at the top if you're looking at spotify for example but then invasion comes next like. Oh i see what's going on here like this is kinda cool you know and then you know each ep starts out with the the sound effects of like invasion and explosions. And you know it's fun. Yeah it's one that's where it is and Yeah so we'll see we'll see what the next Early says okay cool. I'm i'm definitely going to be curious. You know if it's gonna go along the lines of riser resurrection or whatever so warren. Ice was was doing some digging on your facebook. And i saw that. You're a firefighter right. Yeah okay and your dad was one. As well he was. He was a military firefighter. Mccain military okay. I guess you at least for myself. I think of military police for us here in the us. But i never think of like the other side of it. You know firefighter. Firefighters that are milit- military firefighters. You know. I never really about that and you never got around. It's what's called Crash rescue so that'd be like a firefighter at a military airports. Okay so you would. Have you know or departments at any commercial airport while this would be on military bases so they that would be him. Okay location so of course military. You get transferred all over. I got transferred all over with growing up. So i spent a lot of time in in germany as well with there for several years so Yeah oddly enough. That's got into music finals. Young living in germany so european music scene is way better when i was a kid than it was here so for me. I'm i'm older than you guys. So that was seventy eight to eighty two. I live there. I was like ten till fourteen. Okay so the real formerly years for getting into music and bright. And i wasn't even back then it was i was. I was a metal kid growing up for sure all through high school mostly because of living in europe music. Metal scene was so huge there and it wasn't until alex early eighties. I guess Getting into sort of hard core and then getting into the early sort of pop punk stuff. I guess you could say you know descendants in all and big drill car dope boys hills and all those types of bands can canadian bands as well right so so yeah i mean. Of course i'm still fans abo- on what's a it's just a guess we're better at making music. I mean if you ask me you're pretty damn good at it so image the term melodic punk fits you guys to a t. So so then pop punk in a sense. I don't know why it's just a it's kind of always been our goal is to kind of have somewhat heavier music and but catchy writing a lot of melody a lot of harmonies vocally and So china works more so for us. But yeah and at but in a way one could argue that melodic punk is just another phrase for pop punk because you know pop is supposed to be melodic great most of the time at least but i think it definitely suits you guys better. It's it's so strange when you move around a from generation to generation talking about pop punk where Like even myself i might like. I'll say hey time as a pop punk band but then someone younger than me or even close to my age will listen to hang time and be like. Oh no this is a punk band. You know bill. It's just it's it's interesting. Everyone's got their own version of what something is right. And there's constantly arguments about that on facebook comment threads lost after all right now it. it certainly does. It really does 'cause i mean you go back to. I mean even like the nineties. Let's say like or the or the late eighties even before. Like the whole green day. Explosion into the mainstream People considered you know some. Some people even considered bad religion as a pop punk band. You know so yeah eric. Catchy yet Yet heavy consistent you know almost ramones e type or then guitars right. So yeah and even the ramones could be considered while paul cry. Yes oh definitely definitely So growing what. What do you remember about growing up in in germany. And some of the other places that you moved around in germany's obviously the most memorable we spent like i said for years there When i was younger but it was just musically. It was amazing I got it got early on into the what they call the new wave of british heavy metal which was our maiden judas priest motorhead knowledge pants were just kind of starting more or less than and But it wasn't like today where you had. You didn't have access to everything wasn't all access. You know bands As far as learning anything you wanted about them. You're digging through magazines or trying to find some snippet. I didn't have tv in germany we didn't have. Tv's i for years not be so it was weird and No i loved. I it the culture. There's an incredible We were always traveling constantly every weekend. We're gone somewhere is we're so close. We lived in southern germany. So you're an hour from france or you're two hours from austria or whatever just travelled around germany it was It was great. I had scheduled trips. My school trips. Were a ski week in france or even we went to. We went to paris for a school trip. Our conference it was just ridiculous right especially it's so polar opposite of what you would experience anything in north america doesn't matter if you're in canada or the us like nothing that's playing hockey. I play hockey so To be on the canadian team the only canadian team playing hockey in europe. I mean you're given the red carpet for every tournament because all man. There's a canadian team. So you know not dominated by any means but it was always always seemed to be sweden dominated anytime at the blackout professional. No no no. I was young minor hockey white center. Hi i'm thinking straight. Yes so there'd be tournaments all the time. I'd be traveling around and go to you. Know say germany france switzerland. We'd stay for long weekends and play these tournaments or Yeah and all teams from all countries in europe would come for these tournaments and it was. It was crazy. I always said my dad. Always kept all the programs from all tournaments. I played at that. I go back one day. It's kinda read some of these names that who knows who i may have played against during. Yeah i wonder if he would gain like checking. I mean i wonder if he would recognize some of the names or never vote so the so. How did you end up following your dad's footsteps and becoming a firefighter not necessarily in the military though right. I assume you're there wasn't interested. Join the military. Just having lived Growing up military so moving every four years. I wasn't interested in doing that as an adult. So i wasn't. I didn't. I didn't get on the power till i was thirty. Five years old so allow been on now for seventeen years so Before that you know just regular jobs i had. I was with rick. We had another abandoned in the nineties. recalled shortfall. We had a couple of them so we were doing that. We had committed moved to the city in and we're doing that banned for several years and then after that it's yeah married. Kids time von. Yeah it's time to step up and you know find more secure career if if you can so yeah. My dad pressured me. Pressured me but influenced me to perhaps Choose a different career path and find the caved and went to school. It's like okay. All right i know. It was never a passion. I guess you could say. But in hindsight i probably should have done it earlier. Hey i mean you did it when you did it man you did when you were you were ready for it. Finally you know so. I'm sure you're you're twenties and early. Thirties were focused on music. Mainly all right so out of the families getting kids are getting older and you know that things are settling down. That happens with a lot of bands seem to go away for ten years. They do the kids thing and then they all get back together. It's happening constantly now. Yes yes y'all what we're doing. Yeah definitely John getting back to you. And and the promoter side of things. What was your first show alike. Do you remember yeah. My very first show was on a week night. I think a tuesday or wednesday may be end up in a band called the hunters from montreal and I didn't know anything about it. And i just contacted them through their agent. And it was minimal guarantee. And i gotta i had a couple of actually three local bands also one of the local bands. I still am close with today. Actually and that was a guess eight or nine years ago now so one of the local bands. I'm still close with today actually But yeah i just remember thinking. Oh you know it's going to be all these people and it's going to be money for the bands that i'm gonna make money and then when it happened there is nobody there. Is you know maybe ten people tuesday night there might have been ten people and you know it was fun but there really wasn't much happening and i probably had to go to my own pocket a little bit just to pay the just to pay the the headliner will get. I like them. But i don't think anyone else knew them. And that's kind of my but but truthfully that's kind of been my ammo for most of my time promoting ice i come across bans online or contact and i really really liked them and i'll bring them town. Sure i'll give them a place to play. But is this. Because i know other people like them and there's going to be a huge crowd of people know it's just because i truly believe they're good. I think they deserve a place to play in if they've asked some other people. Nobody wants to get involved. I generally will if i really liked them. And that's it. That's why it's not about the money for me. It's not as i'm not going into my hakkinen losing money. I'm perfectly perfectly happy in. Tell i've made a lot of good relationships in Bladder really fun times over the years with music meeting people you know in my own town meeting bands from other countries and then getting to see them again in different cities. Different festivals. Or it's just it's just been fun that way the the networking aspect of it and heaping in touch with people over the years It's been fun seeing what they're doing watching them grow as it has a band remembering what i booked the next number of years ago and then seeing them a few years later and they're making progress in getting some traction so that's nice as to what what's abandoned in particular that you booked early on that's like possibly a become a well known name or if there's not that what we're some of the the bands that you've booked that have come through the area that you really liked working with. Yeah i don't i think i was. I was after the time when a lot of bands like my town oshawa ontario used to have a very vibrant scene in the nineties but will back when a lot of places in canada. Imagine the states did as well like particularly in Will in this area. You had bands like some forty one that we're starting to protest the hero in all this playing at these underground venues then. Of course they've just taken off the over. The years obviously My i guess. If you wanna say biggest show it was a bigwig. Actually is the biggest band that i booked and that was when they were off for quite a while because of tom's hand injury They were out of the. They were very popular in the nineties but then they were really disappeared for quite a number of years and they had played a few shows one summer which was around the montebello rock fest in quebec which was a huge festival is still around then it was. I think a year later. They were doing the same thing. They were going back to that festival. I saw that and sort of got after. Tom and introduced myself. And said i really like to have you guys play here because i saw. They played a lot of smaller ontario cities leading up to that show. And jeez i was about. I think four or five months just following up constantly. It was the most work. I think most chasing. I've ever done for a show but eventually did happen. It was a tuesday night. But back the tuesday night wednesday. Remember you know it was probably. It's not that it was a sold out. Show and i forget money-wise it may have broke even lost a tiny bit whatever but just the energy in that room for a wednesday night and it was under a hundred people but just the energy as a small venue so just the energy is something that i haven't seen in that venue before or since that show that was That was a really good one just a lot of fun. That's cool So yeah it's kinda. It's memories like that really. It's just a lot of even bands from other countries from europe. And then if i go to a festival like puzo fest in montreal and see some bands. Maybe they'll be playing. And i'll bump into the and and that's fun too. You can kinda say. Oh the guy from oshawa chat and a lot of Keep in touch and talk sometimes and so. Yeah it's fun to support each other as we can have anything changes or if they ever want to come back this way or maybe they want to go somewhere else and ask if i know somebody or may i ask them you know. Hang time or another band wants to go to their country and you know recommendations on who to play with and where to play so it's helpful it's helpful in this starter in the environment with diy type type booking your definitely. I could not agree more with that So a we're about at time guys Anything else you want to say about dental records or about hang time Before we close out. You know what honestly. It's we were hoping to do. Some touring This year we're hoping touring last year. we had attention to do Germany or japan last year outta festival maybe do a small tour surrounding it but of second happen and probably won't happen this year but As far as touring goes were not sure I think it was last month. You had much the same guys on them. I had them on a while ago. It was in the summertime it was. I had them I highlighted them on the recap episode. Because they were they were one of the most listened to episodes of last year. They had spoke about touring saying that. There's really no point during any more from a business standpoint. You wanna look at it from a band than it's it just doesn't work the numbers. Don't add up to. Your guys are taking time off work. There you've got travelling expenses in on or shows of course don't generate money certainly to independent level. So i'm it may just be local stuff. Maybe hoping to get to europe. One day We'll see you know what i mean. That's always the goal has been for ever and there's going to keep trying in the labels hopefully gonna support us as well awesome ball. I'm excited for you guys. You know dental records sounds like you know. It's it's developing. You guys are taken time just kind of feeling things out which is always good. You know you never wanna rush into anything as you know so. That's that's great. And i fully support you guys so yeah hang time and dental records. I got your back thank you. You're welcome and thank you for having our back as well that send super beneficial so yeah that'd be great man all right you guys have a great rest of the are a great weekend. I guess i should say thank you. Thank you talk to guys soon. All right take care you too. Saint thank you so much to warren gregson of hang time and john martyn of dental records for being guests on the podcast today. They've both been huge supporters of pop punk in pizza through our sponsorship program. And it's been a huge help for me at getting the bills paid here so please pick up. Hang -times latest vinyl today if you can. It's a fantastic record. Filled with fun melodic punk rock. If you're in canada you can get your copy at dental records. Canada done big cartel dot com. And then if you're in the us go to say dash the number ten dot com. I ordered my copy not too long ago when i can't wait for it to arrive and you can find hang time on facebook and instagram at halftime band and then dental records is on facebook at dental records punk and they're instagram is dental records canada. This episode of pop punk competes was sponsored by the dave gomez charity compilation featuring tim rovner of alastair guardrail till morning and several others. All proceeds from this comp will go to chicago. Pop punk music scene veteran dave gomez who is currently battling cancer. So you can preorder your copy. Today at dave gomez benefit comp at band camp dot com. I think previously i said it was dave gomez charity comp but it's actually gomez benefit comp at band camp dot com so pre-ordered that bad boy. Today there's also a t shirt you can pre-order as well and what's cool about the design of this comp and the t shirt is that it's in the style of advocates like the the clothing company. Dave gomez is he's a big fan of atticus so they They mocked the gomez logo to make it look like atticus bird on it. The red lettering. And all that. It's really cool. So if you get a chance head on over there and if you can't preorder if if you're not interested in pre ordering the cop i mean you could get a sweet t shirt out of it or both. Why not go for gold. I'm jacques l'amour thank you so much for listening to pop punk in pete's If you haven't already you can catch up on previous episodes at pop punk pizza pan dot com or wherever it is that you listen to podcasts and hit excuse me hit that subscribe button as well and rafa review for me if you can. It really costs nothing but just a quick minute of your time and make sure you sign up for our mail list our mailing list this month only have a week left of january Everyone who signs up for the month of january is entered for a chance to win a hosie warm hoodie with our logo on it So you can do that. Hit up our merged store the submitting your music and so many other things all pop punk pizza pod dot com. Our social is are the same Facebook twitter instagram gives us a follow at pop punk pizza. Pod and if you're aband- publicist or manager and have interests in having music played on the show or being guest you can always shoot me an email to angering radio at g mail dot com if you don't want to submit to the website so the next episode is going to be dropping this thursday january twenty eighth with big smile from cincinnati ohio. We're gonna be talking about their new single bible belt. Which is really going to be a game changer. I think it's a very powerful song and it's got a powerful message. So i really think you're you're going to enjoy this song. Enjoy this conversation but anyway so that episode is going to be dropping this thursday January twenty eighth and the single bible belt drops the next day. Actually this friday january twenty ninth via anchor eighty four records so i will talk to you then And so then be safe and take could carry yourself all right. I love you. Which is nice is nice.

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Lou Gehrigs Disease (ALS) Pt. 1

Medical Mysteries

40:47 min | 1 year ago

Lou Gehrigs Disease (ALS) Pt. 1

"The air was sticky hot and humid in Saint Petersburg Florida. The normally quiet town buzzed. With the sounds of America's favorite pastime baseball thirty-nine spring training was well underway and nowhere was the excitement. More palpable at the New York. Yankees facilities fans clamored to get a look at the reigning World Champs. They included Joe Dimaggio Vernon Lewis Lefty Gomez and none other than the Ironhorse himself Lou Gehrig. Derek was excited to be back for another year. It was a chance to extend his regular season. Starting streak after more than two thousand game straight GEHRIG meant to finish his career on top but as the spring season wore on he felt off. He was getting fatigued easily and his once. Formidable batting power was gone each. He stepped up to the plate. He relaxes his grip on the Bat. He kept his eye locked on the Pitcher as the ball. Shot through the air. He tracked its path toward the strike zone. He cocked his arms back and Swung. He regularly made perfect contact. But which should have been a line drive was instead a soft blooper that landed just beyond the infield thirty five year old. Gehrig couldn't figure out what was wrong. Sure he was getting older but his routine hadn't changed since last season he couldn't have lost his edge over the course of one winter could he? He didn't know it yet but he'd been struck by a little understood incredibly rare illness and it was about to get worse. Gehrig only had a few games left in his career and in a matter of months he'd have to say goodbye to baseball forever. When our bodies fail we trust doctors to diagnose the problem but medicine isn't always inexact science. Sometimes it's a guessing game with life or death stakes. This is medical mysteries. A podcast original. I'm Ali and I'm Richard. Every Tuesday will look at the strangest real life medical cases in history and the experts who raced against the clock to solve them as we follow. These high intensity stories will explore medical research. That might solve the puzzle next week. In part two will analyze all the evidence and try to find an answer. You can find episodes of medical mysteries and all other park asked originals for free on spotify over. Ever you listen to podcasts. Jetstream medical mysteries for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type medical mysteries in the search bar at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let's knew how we're doing reach out on facebook and instagram. At podcast and twitter at PODCAST NETWORK. This is our first episode on my o traffic. Lateral sclerosis or a L. S. A. L. S. is a condition in which a person gradually loses control of their muscles until they become completely immobile and die this week will explore the history of the illness and how it was discovered will also look at the most common symptoms and explore how ls went from an obscure disease to one of the most well-known ailments in the world. Next week we'll take a deep dive into the search for a cure. We'll also explore the mysterious relationship between military service and a heightened risk for AOL s prior to Eighteen. Sixty five a patient who will call. Marie checked herself into a hospital. She suffered tremors in her extremities and her tongue wooden stop twitching. Marie was quickly assessed and put in with the rest of the women at the P. T. saw patry air hospital in Paris orderlies took Marie down the hall to award for Neurology Patients. They thought Marie was just another case of hysteria. A psychological condition that only affected women. The doctors couldn't treat or cure hysteria. Marie was beyond help. All they could do was give her a place to live out. Her days separated from the wider world as Marie March to her new home. The smell of decay filled the halls of the overcrowded hospital. It was one of the largest facilities in France when its reputation had long been tarnished. This was a place that many feared everyone in Paris knew that before the nineteenth century being admitted into the so patriotair was nothing less than a death sentence. Those who went in rarely came out and those who were released were often worse off than when they derived medicine was far from where it needed to be but a few bright young physicians were changing the way things were done. Men like John Martin Sharko. He'd grown up exploring the streets of Paris with his brothers. He was one of four boys from a modest middle class household and he'd overcome great adversity. While everyone in his family had ambitions their father only had enough money to send one of his sons to university to ensure that he was making a sound investment. He made the boys compete with one. Another it was the only way to know who was the most worthy of an advanced education as a child. John Martin Co got his hands on a few anatomy books written in Italian. He was a fast learner and an astute observer soon he was fluent in French English German and Italian which allowed him to read works from all over the world. He was determined to get an edge on his brothers when he was a teenager. He developed an interest in medicine and by the time he was eighteen. He proven himself. His father agreed to send him to college in Eighteen. Forty three Sharko enrolled at the University of Paris. They're like everywhere else. Sharko excelled he was passionate and studious. He had a singular focus. He was to learn as much as he could about the human body though he may have been permanently influenced by his survival of the fittest upbringing. Sharko was often abrasive and didn't make friends easily but it was apparent to everyone. He came in contact with that. He was brilliant. He focused on the field of pathology or the study of how people are affected by disease. Thala just trying to understand how illnesses are caused. Because they believe that's the best way to find a cure twenty-three-year-old shark who had finished portion of his medical education in eighteen forty eight. He accepted an internship from the Salpetriere. He was familiar with the hospital's reputation. He grown up in the area and new. It's history. The large building had always been a hospital in fact when it was first built it had been gun. Factory used to house large caches of gunpowder but years later in the sixteen hundreds it had been converted into a prison and hospice for women. The hospital was supposed to offer hospice care by the quality was poor in the years. Prior to shark. Ohs internship patients were sleeping on Straw mattresses and rarely received proper medical care. Charcoal called it that grand asylum of human misery. Sharko wanted to do something to change the Salpetriere. Even though he was only an intern he brought his passion and singular focus with him. He was going to learn everything he could from every patient. He saw and change their circumstances during that period of medical advancement. Doctors were noting a certain mysterious neurological illness. The condition made patients jerk around in spasms seemingly at random. They grew week overtime unable to move except for the periodic involuntary twitches. Nobody knew what caused. Sharko wanted to investigate neurological research further but as the least senior medical professional. He had little to say in his work so he had to bide his time. Well other interns were excited to leave when their terms were up. Sharko resolved to return as soon as he could. He wanted to get a better look at that mystery ailment but he'd have to wait a few more years. Sharko spent the next decade bouncing around different hospitals in France. He became known in the medical community for taking methodical notes. On all of his patients. These went beyond the usual lists of basic symptoms. He wrote down every minute detail that could possibly relate to a patient's condition this type of documentation laid the groundwork for what was known as the anatomy clinical method. This was a system that featured two equally important parts first. Sharko kept incredibly detailed records of every patient symptoms while they were alive. Second when that patient passed away. Sharko would perform an autopsy. The thorough notes were crucial to his findings. Rier TO THE POST MORTEM EXAM. Sharko didn't always know what exactly to look for. He didn't want to get so distracted with big noticeable symptoms that he missed a small but telling tick so he wrote down everything and in the process discovered a lot of key symptoms that his colleagues had missed thanks to his findings. Shark Os Star Rose in the French medical community soon. He had his pick of any institution in the country but there was only one place he wanted to go in eighteen. Sixty two thirty-seven-year-old John Martin Sharko returned to the Salpetriere. It was still known for housing outcasts though society wanted to forget about but Sharko couldn't forget them. He accepted a position in the general medicine. Department with physiologist. Alfred Volpi on together. They made daily rounds throughout the hospital. They had to cover a lot of ground. The staffing at the was abysmal for nearly five thousand patients. The hospital only had one surgeon on top of that there were only seven doctors and a dozen or so interns. The mortality rate at the time was around seventeen percent meaning. Almost one out of five patients died in the hospital. Recent data suggests that the average in the United States is about six point eight percent but sometimes things have to hit rock bottom before they get better and Sharko was doing his best to help the hospital. Climb out of its hole. I. He didn't blindly accept the go-to diagnoses of the day. Nearly all of the patients at the South Patriotair allegedly had a condition called hysteria for thousands of years. Hysteria was the go-to explanation. When women behaved in unexpected or unusual ways in ancient Greece? The father of Medicine. Hippocrates believed that women's uteruses move throughout the body. Triggering various symptoms by the eighteen. Hundreds hysteria diagnoses were given for a wide range of conditions. Anxiety insomnia hallucinations paralysis. Medina's and sexual promiscuity were all deemed hysterical. But SHARKO didn't buy that explanation. He thought each patient he saw a different ailment after all he noted different symptoms in each person. Some had trouble with movement while others had what we'd recognize today as mental health conditions to get to the root of what was really afflicting. His patients shark. Oh needed more information on each individual. That meant he had to change the way. The hospital approach treatment altogether. Treating doctors usually only interacted with their patients during their rounds with thousands to see a short amount of time that meant each physician only spent a few seconds with a person. Sharko wanted to change that so he had his patients come to him in his office. He would document everything he saw wrong with the person on top of that he also tried to put together a comprehensive history from there he could look for overall trends so far as symptoms went some of his hysteria patients had trouble lifting seemingly light objects. Others couldn't stop moving even when they wanted to. But even these radic spasms would be different from one person to the next some had a tremor in their arms while others could only move in rigid almost robotic spurts some said their symptoms had come on suddenly while others said. The condition had gradually increased over time. Each description was aclu. Each individual had a unique story that shark. Oh new was important to their case. Unfortunately most of his patients were beyond saving treatments or cures. Were years away. The best he could do in the short term was figure out what was wrong then someday in the future others who were suffering the same condition could maybe be saved shark Os observations in his office. Were just the first step for the next. He'd need to wait for his patients to succumb to their diseases. Because when it comes to autopsies the body holds a myriad of secrets. Coming up. Sharko identifies something never before seen in the human body. It's my pleasure to inform you about a fantastic new podcast. Original called daily quote. It's hosted by my good friend. Cape Leonard and it's designed to inspire you and put you on the path to positively. Each day is two to three minute. Podcast will share a quote that were motivate uplift and renew your outlook on life. You'll even get the specific context surrounding the quote so you can learn more about its origin and the meaning behind it and right. Now we're going to play you an episode so take a listen and then followed daily quote. Freon spotify over. Ever you get your podcasts. Good morning and welcome to daily quote apart cast original. Today's quote is from investment sage Warren Buffett. He says someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a seed a longtime ago on the surface. Today's quote offers financial advice. Buffet grew his wealth planning his money in the right opportunities years before he expected to get anything back. But this quote isn't just about finance or even gardening. It's about the small steps we can take to improve our lives and the lives of others to use terms from Warren Buffett's world the tiniest action today pays dividends down the road. And you never know how much your small investment might appreciate. It's up to you to take that small step every day to create the future. You WanNa live in. Invite that cool person and you're hiking group to coffee. They could be your best friend. Adopt that pet. It could be your greatest comfort. Send a message on a dating APP. That person could be your spouse. Then widen your focus beyond your own future appreciate those who planted the trees and flowers. You enjoy today consider how you too can leave the world a better place than you found it. You WanNa tree go plant a seed. Daily quote is a daily podcast. Follow on spotify to make it part of your morning routine and let it inform the rest of your day. Daily quote is a podcast original. If you're listening on spotify you can share this quote with your friends on social by tapping the three dots in the top right corner of the episode. Page scrolling down to share and selecting your sharing option of choice. If you're looking for a morning jump. Start a midday. Pick me up or evening inspiration. You can hear a new episode three hundred sixty five days a year followed daily quote free on spotify over. Have you get your podcasts now? Back to the story forty year old. John Martin Sharko was an accomplished doctor at the Seoul Patriotair in Paris France by King. Sixty five he was treating thousands of patients who to an outsider looking in all suffered from so called hysteria but Shark Co was open to other explanations and he focused on getting to know his patients individually to better understand their illnesses in early. Eighteen sixty five Sharko presented the case of a French woman. Marie who was admitted to the hospital in previous years when shark oh I met Murray. He noticed something different about her. She'd lost all function in her limbs. Sharko attributed this to neurological condition. But she unlike other patients still had complete cognitive function in other words. Marie could hold a coherent conversation. Something that someone with hysteria shouldn't be able to do. Her muscles were in a weakened state and she presented with contractors a condition in which neglected muscles can become permanently shortened making it difficult for joints to straighten. It usually happens in people who don't move around much but maurice condition couldn't be attributed to a sedentary lifestyle. Her muscles were wasting away because no matter how hard she tried she just couldn't lift them. She reported that the condition had come on gradually one day. She noticed weakness in her arm over the next few weeks. She'd gotten weaker still but she hadn't known why before she knew it. This phenomenon had spread to her extremities and she couldn't walk on her own tra- caretakers had center to the hospital. They had no idea what was wrong and hoped the doctors could help. Sharko was intrigued and Marie became one of his regularly monitored. Patience every few weeks. Marie came into his office to be examined. Nothing that the staff did seem to help. The young woman and it appeared that her condition was worsening Sharko implemented the best tools at his disposal to track Marine Progression. Photography was in its infancy. But he used it to his full advantage. The camera could pick up more accurate details than a simple drawing. These pictures were useful because Sharko could reference them later in Casey Miss. Something during the original examination while it was important for him to document marines visible symptoms. It was even more important for him to see what was happening inside her body but to get a thorough examination. He had to wait for her to die. Sadly that was just a matter of time. Eventually Marie began to have trouble swallowing on her own. Sharko could see the pain behind. Her is is. Marie wasted away from malnutrition. She was completely aware of what was happening to her. Her mind was still there but her body was failing. Marie soon struggled to breathe her muscles in her chest barely had any strength to rise up and allow more Aaron. Each breath came in shallow and raspy. Her time was drawing to a close and she knew it slowly over a couple of days. She succumbed to her illness and passed away. Her death was heartbreaking but charcoal was used to these sorts of tragedies almost all of his patients died but he did his best to bring meaning out of their loss that meant learning everything he could even after death marines body was brought into an operating theatre where Chicago ended. Assistant performed an autopsy. They made an incision along her sternum and cracked open her chest cavity to get a look at our vital. Marie was thin from malnutrition but her heart and other vital organs appeared to be in fine shape with all of these preliminary observations made. Sharko moved onto what really interested him. Her spinal column in eighteen sixty five. There was a huge debate about how the nervous system worked. No one doubted that. The spinal cord was important to movement. But they still weren't exactly sure how everything worked together. Sharko meant to change that. Maurice Body was repositioned so he could get a better look at her spine. Her bone structure looked fine but he wanted to get a look at what was inside her spinal cord. He carefully cut into the spinal column which is composed of thirty three vertebrae. The Vertebrae are protective coating for the spinal cord. A bundle of nervous tissue that runs the entire length of the backbone. Sharko cautiously saw through bone. Each pass had to be shallow and sure if he cut too deep. He risked destroying valuable sections of the spinal cord after what felt like ours. Sharko managed to cut away the spinal column. He finally had the chance to examine the exposed. Neural tissue and there. He was astonished to Find Grace. Streaking lesions lesions are any kind of cut break or abnormal tissue. And they're not always a sign of illness for example. The Mayo Clinic notes. That scars and birthmarks are both kinds of lesions except healthy. People usually don't have any markings or visible damage to their spinal. Cords Sharko was certain that these lesions had caused Marie symptoms. This discovery was revolutionary. He sketched the abnormalities and described them at length in his records. He noted that they were clustered on the lateral column in simple terms. If you were to look at the spinal column from above you'd see it's shaped like a thick ex. There are two branches in front called the Anterior Horn into in the back. The Posterior Horn on either side of the ax is the lateral calm. Murray's lesions were mostly on the lateral column of the spine. This was difficult to explain Sharko. Couldn't imagine what sort of disease would damage the front of the spine while leaving the middle and back alone. He was an uncharted territory. The field of neurology was still in its infancy and there weren't any firm theories about what lesions on the spinal cord could mean. Sharko assumed the lesions had caused Merisi illness but he knew that one individual symptoms didn't make for a solid theory. He needed to repeat the findings and that meant dissecting another person who died of the same condition for the next four years. Sharko kept seeing patients studying and documenting countless conditions. But all the while he kept an eye open for someone with symptoms that matched. Meri's however the illness was apparently very rare because he struggled to find patients who fit the profile not until eighteen sixty nine. When Sharko had another breakthrough unlike Marie who gradually lost her mobility this patient had presented with paralysis as a child but when Sharko performed his usual he noticed that this person had the same kind of lesions on their spinal cord. The one difference they were on a different part of the spine the anterior horn or the front part of the eggs. Once again Sharko didn't know where the lesions had come from or why they clustered around one spot but every new piece of evidence helped him get closer to an answer from these. Two examinations Sharko developed a hypothesis. He theorized that the nervous system had two basic functions. I the brain sends signals to the spinal cord second. The information traveled from the spinal cord to the rest of the body. At least that was how things worked in a healthy person but if those signals got interrupted say by lesions on the spinal cord then a person wouldn't be able to move correctly the location of the lesions determine the specific nature of the patient's impaired mobility in eighteen seventy four. He published his studies and dubbed the New Disease Amaya Trophic lateral sclerosis or a LS. He was the first doctor to show a detailed blink between these symptoms and underlying physical condition rather than purely a psychological one. Despite his revolutionary findings Sharko was still missing a crucial piece of the puzzle. He didn't know what had caused lesions so the next step was to look at which traits his patients shared to see if he could find common cause both of his patients had been women but Sharko didn't think gender played a role in their illness after all he was working at the women's wing of the hospital so it was possible there were male patients. He just wasn't seeing after further research he also ruled out race as a potential factor. But he still didn't know what did cause L. ASS and without knowing the origin he couldn't come up with a cure instead he had to rely on and error. Sharko was a big proponent of using hypnosis to treat his neurological patients and he was having limited success but only in those that had what we know as psychological conditions sadly since patients with LS lesions on their spinal cord. Hypnotherapy did nothing for their symptoms although Sharko didn't know how to treat them. His discovery of the spinal lesions had been huge at the end of his life in eighteen ninety three. His findings were widely accepted all over the world. Since he'd been so diligent with his notes. Physicians knew the symptoms to look for to diagnose patients with AOL S. Most patients were like Marie. They'd start out feeling fine but then slowly grow weak over time. They lose control over their muscles and deteriorate until they stop breathing other patients lost control over their voluntary motor functions. While they are weaker they'd find themselves shaking or spasm ing some would start laughing or crying unable to stop doctors could diagnose from these symptoms but they still didn't know exactly what the lesions were doing nor could they figure out the significance of their location on the spinal column. Why did they appear in different places and triggers such different symptoms while they looked for solutions? Their patients were dying. Doctors remained powerless to stop the condition on top of that the general public was mostly unaware of the illness. So there was little pressure for more research but that was all about to change in the spring of Nineteen thirty nine. One of the greatest baseball players of all time was diagnosed with a LS and he changed the dialogue around the disease forever. Coming up all star first baseman Lou GEHRIG becomes the first face of LS now back to the story in eighteen. Seventy four forty eight year old. John Martin Sharko. A world renowned doctor published the first ever study on a Maya traffic lateral sclerosis or ls. The condition caused by lesions on the patient's spinal column leads to slow muscular deterioration then ultimately death while Dr Shark who discovered the illness. He was unable to figure out what caused the lesions or to cure them but he laid a groundwork that countless neurologists would follow over fifty years of study. They were frustratingly few breakthroughs and by the early twentieth century. There was still no treatment or cure while the disease was well known within the medical community the vast majority of people had never heard of it. This relative obscurity made it nearly impossible to get proper funding for further research. But that was about to change thanks to a celebrities diagnosis in the Nineteen Twenties and thirties. Lou GEHRIG was the first Baseman for the New York Yankees and a member of what many fans called murderers row because of their ability to crush the ball. He and his teammates were known for their offensive prowess at the plate and for winning numerous world series titles. Gary was a fan favorite but during the team's spring training and Florida in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. He could tell something was wrong. Power that he'd been so famous for old but disappeared. He was often tired but had no idea why he desperately wanted to play every game and maintain his legendary starting streak but he also didn't want to embarrass himself by getting easily winded or making a mistake on the field even with the disappointing spring training showing he was given a starting spot once the regular season began after all. Gehrig was a in his manager. Hope that he would turn it around in March. Old reliable number four took his place at first base. Gehrig hope that he was passed whatever he'd experienced in the spring instead he got worse all through the month. His dominance at the plate was gone for good and people were noticing the notoriously harsh New York City press question GEHRIG's abilities. They noted that his hand eye coordination was still on point but garrick was struggling with power. He was hitting the ball but it wasn't going anywhere. His teammates noticed how he was struggling to. He was making rare errors at first and was incredibly slow on routine defensive plays on April Thirtieth Nineteen thirty nine. Gehrig went over for four. The played against the Washington senators. A hitless game had been unthinkable the season before but it was becoming his new normal. He couldn't stand to let the fancy him fade away. He knew he had to make a life. Changing decision on May Second. Dariga arrived at the stadium in suited up for the game. He laced up his cleats. And BUTTONED HIS JERSEY. He left the locker room and headed up the steps to the dugout there. He approached the Yankees Manager. Joe McCarthy and said that he was benching himself his starting streak was over at two thousand one hundred and thirty games but benching himself wasn't enough his wife. Eleanor noticed that something was very wrong with her husband at home and grew worried. Gehrig told her that he could feel weakness in his arms and every so often he had a tremor as he worsened she called the world renowned. Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. She told them of her husband's ailment and a few of his symptoms. The physicians agreed to run a few tests. Gehrig was a huge star and they were happy to help him out on June thirteenth. The GEHRIG's flew to Minnesota. He and his wife were hopeful that they'd finally get a handle on. Whatever was going on at the Mayo Clinic. Garrick met with Dr Paul. O'leary he recounted the onset of his illness and his current symptoms. Sadly A- Larry and other physicians at the clinic knew exactly what he was describing. And it didn't sound good everything lined up with. What Sharko had documented over seventy years before the problem was there were many other neurological diseases that fit gehrig's description to and there was no test for LS that meant. The doctors had to rule out other conditions. I guarantee spent nearly a week in Minnesota undergoing medical tests his physicians determined. It wasn't Parkinson's disease or Huntington's disease crossing off more possibilities every day. The list of what it could be was narrowing down to the worst possible outcome. It only took a week to get through all of the tests on June nineteenth nineteen thirty nine GHERIG's thirty sixth birthday. The doctors inform the famous ballplayer of his diagnosis garrick. Sad is he learned the grim news he had. Ls while this disease was rare. It affected over thirty thousand Americans a year and there was no cure. Garrick would just have to let it run. Its Course Dr O'Leary whom Garrick would go on to form a relationship with said that in many cases patients only made it three years before they died from the illness garrick was at a loss for words. He always been a hard worker and he was used to his efforts paying off. He didn't like that there was nothing he could do. Now then O'Leary gave him even more bad news. He had to stop playing baseball altogether. While the activity wouldn't aggravate the condition GEHRIG was putting himself at risk. Every time he set foot on the field his reaction times would only get slower and a one hundred mile per hour line. Drive at first base could do serious damage. Garrod left the Mayo Clinic in quiet despair but he trusted O'Leary's prognosis and knew there was no point fighting it. All he could do was make the best of his final years and say goodbye to the sport he loved on June twenty-first the Yankees announced gehrig's diagnosis and retirement to the public fans and sports lovers. All over. The country were shocked and saddened. Garrick was a hero. Things like this weren't supposed to happen to men with nicknames like Ironhorse to soften the blow the team announced that they beholding and appreciation day for Lou Gehrig on July fourth. Nineteen thirty nine fans filled Yankee stadium to give Gehrig a proper sendoff. Some of his old teammates like Babe. Ruth were in attendance before the game started. Gehrig walked to a microphone in the middle of the field to give a farewell speech. He said fans for the last two weeks. You've been reading about a bad break got yet today. I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth. There was hardly a dry eye in the house as Gehrig left the field for the last time he was optimistic even though his prognosis was in bright he was going to make the best of the time he had but he didn't have long at all. It was only two years later on June second. Nineteen forty one. That Lou Garrick died in his home in New York. It was a sad day for sports. Fans all over the country but the famous ballplayers fate wouldn't be in vain. Gehrig's death brought a pronounced awareness to a LS. He inspired countless donors and activists more money than ever before was funneled into charities and research across the Globe. Now better funded and supported. Physicians threw themselves into their studies. The race was on every day. More people were diagnosed with LS. The scientists had to find a cure and fast Lou. Gehrig wouldn't be the only famous name to suffer the disease before long a ls victims range from Johnstone. The creator of Sesame Street to physicist Stephen Hawking as well as countless ordinary people MOMS DADS SIBLINGS. New Research was their only hope for survival. But perhaps the answer lay in simple bucket of ice. Thanks for listening to medical mysteries. Next week will look at modern research into a LS. We'll explore some of the theories on what may cause the disease and what scientists are doing to find a cure. You can find all episodes of medical mysteries and all other podcast originals for free on spotify not only spotify already. Have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy. All of your favorite podcast originals. Like medical mysteries for free from your phone. Desktop or smart speaker to stream medical mysteries on spotify. Just open the APP tap browse and type medical mysteries in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram. At podcast and twitter at Marquette network will see next time medical mysteries was created by Max Cutler and Disa- parkas studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler. Sound design by Michael Langer with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Travis Clark. This episode of Medical Mysteries was written by Robert Tyler Walker with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner.

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Winter Storm Geek Out

Weather Geeks

40:16 min | 2 years ago

Winter Storm Geek Out

"Can cancel schools shut down airports and the big ones can even paralyze cities for days. They are winter storms, and they track all across the country every year as complicated weather systems were details of temperature and pockets of dry air and subtle bands of intense snowfall make the difference between a few flurries and a few feet of snow. We are here today to look at them more closely. Please welcome to my colleagues from the university of Wisconsin, Madison. The best in the business in understanding structure and predictability of mid latitude and tropical weather systems. And I would say true leaders in the scientific community they are professors, Dr John Martin. And Dr Michael Morgan, they join today discuss why winter storms behave the way they do and how we can understand them better. So get ready whether eek fans were really going to roll up our sleeves and get into the details of winter storms. I'm Dr Greg Postel for whether geeks and my friends, John. Michael. So glad you guys are here. Let's get started. All right. First up the predictability of winter storms. I'm going to send it to both of you guys. John, and Michael you guys can battle it out the topic here why are snowfall forecasts. So challenging. Good question. I'll start with one thing. Michael is going to have a different perspective than me. I'll say this that within the context of the gigantic scale mid latitude weather systems, and they'll cover ten or twelve states at one time within that giant scale that the narrowness of the of the heavy precipitation bands. And I think we focus more on them when they fall in the form of snow in the wintertime is exceptionally small and so trying to figure out precisely wear a little thin ribbon. Strip of heavy snow is going to fall within the context of ten state scale storm makes the problem difficult right from the outset stun, I think you're you're absolutely right on that. I don't really disagree with that. I mean think about it snowfalls going to involve sort of several ingredients is it cold enough, the lack of the lack of or the sufficiency of the moisture that's there, and the dynamics that you're sort of implying from the structure of those bands. And so often some the largest no falls as you just described are associated with these nearly stationary bands of moderate to heavy. Tation that can dump a significant amount of snow, and I think the issue is where to those bands set up, right? And you don't really know that at least in my experience it's often until the just before the sedation about to start or once it started. How things eventually a land. It could be a difference of twenty five or fifty miles. That's the difference between dry ground and shovel snow. Yes. That's exactly right. Why don't we know? Those bands are set up say a couple of days in advance. What's what's the issue there? Well, part of it's the these bans are in some cases associated with dynamical processes like front. Genesis the formation of these intense thermal gradients and models have inherently have errors both in their initial conditions as well as in the models themselves. There's and as you project data Ford and time and a forecast model getting precisely where that band is going to set up. It's a challenge these models or resolving things maybe now down to the sub ten kilometer scale. But these vans are probably about thirty kilometers. And so you could be just a couple. Grid points off the all the difference. Yeah. And as Michael alluded to earlier, I think it's a to get a really heavy snow or lack thereof is a result of a confluence of a number of different circumstances. That are some I independent of each other. They're not entirely independent of each other semi independent of each other. And so the analogy I always have in my mind is if you want to really nail down the exact timing and well in advance and position of snow band and a heavy snow storm. It's like making a combination shot on the pool table balls. The cue ball hitting five different balls before the object ball and the chances of making that shot except for somebody like, Greg very low. Yeah. So so you're saying the tiny little differences that are within the scope of error at the initial time are going to lead to widely different outcomes. And so we just don't know which one's going to be the right one. That's I think that's right in America weather, predictions, inherently a non linear dynamical system problem. Not to get too geeky abounded geeky. Let's got the sense that you know, these in those. Context that the forecasts are very are very sensitive to the initial condition. So there's like difference initial conditions. Their state dependent right? There's not the they're not white noise. So to speak. So let's talk about some forecast. Mrs like, for example, I'm thinking of the couple of come to mind like New York last month where I remember New York about central park over six inches. And I think the forecast even a day before that was for almost nothing many outlets or the one in just this last weekend in Virginia where Richmond, for example, got gosh. Almost a foot of snow in the forecast today before from again, many outlets was almost nothing. So what when we see that? And we look back. How how can we go forward and improve things? Well, I think part of the issue with the most recent storm in southern Virginia and the Carolinas North Carolina was the models about two or three days out. I think you could have invoked I make forecast for that area. I was talking to them about the possibility of several inches of snow. No. And then as as as we went forward in time closer to the timing of the event, the likelihood of it being just all snow in Richmond seemed evaporate as it. Looked like significant warming was going to occur that would change that precipitation over to a rain. So let me extent let me just seems like that Richmond bust was not a snow band. It's not one of those medical band issues. It was much larger error associated with the phase and amplitude of the storm. And maybe even the temperature profiles mom, I think that's that's that's correct. And the northern extent of the snow. Bend was also very tricky issue for folks that live just south of the DC area. How far north with that band or with the leading edge of the snow progress before it actually shifted back to health, and I think that's really a communication issue. How to communicate the uncertainty that was certainly in the forecast when the the forecast really just about every model had a very tight northern boundary on where the snow falls to occur in this situation where communicating that uncertainty, which I didn't follow the forecast in that area carefully on that was certainly going to be a big. Factor. But some of the model on samba members are just look at different collections of models. Did hint at this northward shift on that ultimately did occur. And from an academic point instead of operational point. I wonder how many so-called snow forecast busts would disappear if we only looked at the actual observe precipitation versus the forecasted precipitation amount in the liquid quivalent form. In other words. What you're you're both alluding to maybe in the Virginia case there was a. Misperception about just how long it would stay cold in the Richmond area as when the storm approached and that has something to do with the development of the storm for sure, but it's not the only thing that that can throw you off there. You might have ended up with the same liquid equivalent precipitation in Richmond. As was forecast. It's just that most of Fela snow, and that's a huge impact impactful error. So as opposed to just rain. So what you're saying is that it's the precipitation type if you ignore the precipitation type initially just looked at. Yeah. Right. How many bus would disappear for a lot of them tell you would they would. Because when you have the good forecast by lots of metrics, you straddle that air on the face change of water thirty two you're going to come up with all kinds of different scenarios with acceptable error in the forecast. That's what I think. And that's complicated. These change from ice back to water is complicated. Be affected by the presence of unsaturated beneath the precipitation falling out, and that doesn't even really register. In your in your dry bulb temperature, the kind you see on the Bank the Mamata. That's not a how many people have seen it snowing at thirty six degrees Fahrenheit in wanted. Why is that happening? It's snowflakes are sublimating going right from ice vapor and that cools the air sufficiently to protect them as no flying. And I think that's actually the was that you could attribute that affect that. I'm process to the bus that occurred in New York and also parts of Maryland and the DC area back a month ago that other storm then I think perhaps I haven't looked at it carefully. But the on the models may have been underestimating the the depths of the cold dry air that was being transported. Southward I got another question here for now. Again, relating to the predictability things would you say more data will make a forecast better. I mean, we oftentimes hear that they're initiating several balloon sawn launches to improve the forecast or their targeting certain areas. And let's stick with the winter storms and not go tropical cyclones because that's different animal. But let's talk about winter storms and sampling just with greater. Density of surveys is that gonna make your forecast better in general. The answer is yes, additional data is going to improve forecasts that have been a number of case studies and feel programs are conducted since the mid nineteen nineties into the early two thousand during the era that was a broad global set of field experiments during those campaigns. They would send out what they called targeted conducted these targeted observing missions in which they would fly aircraft or take additional operations in areas that were deemed sensitive to the forecast vector based on singular vectors based on forecasts spread and they actually demonstrated. There wasn't improvement in the forecast. Now, the interesting thing is during that same period of time. One of the greatest advances in numeric weather prediction was occurring and that was improvement in how we actually handle the date of the gets into the models. And so as forecast increases the average margin impact of any individual observing system is going to go down. So more recent studies that have been looking at this. The Noah conducted this winter. Storm reconnaissance program back in the that ended up thinking twenty fourteen and they began to see that. There was very small impacts to these additional observations. So it's getting tougher to actually identify that. And that's perhaps due to the fact that we're using data more effectively. So the marginal addition to improving the forecast clumps of ation has perhaps gone down in recent years. So sometimes think about a sort of common sense analogy here, if you if you imagine a world in which there's lots of automobiles, but no traffic lights, anywhere. The installation of any new traffic light is bound to improve the safety of the roads. But after a point it's it's really only gonna matter if you put them in really sensitive spots in the traffic. It doesn't matter if you put him somewhere else. And so, you know, as Michael said as these observing systems and assimilation techniques. Evolve. The places where you can make an improvement get a little bit less pervasive. And it's takes a lot more sophistication to figure out where to do that. Well, the counterargument is. To if you add more data, which obviously hasn't heritage flawed. Their heirs associated with those pieces of information, and you project those Ontario and the atmosphere that are very sensitive to growth, then you could end up with a very bad forecast. So in any given instant, adding more data, you don't know which direction to forecast going to if it's going to get you better or getting worse, actually, an excellent point. So as you said if you put data in these regions that you believe the forecast sensitive to changing the initial conditions. You certainly run the risk if the data's not properly handled orbit has significant Ariza that could contaminate the forecast. And so when we look at these measures of improvement. It really is not just from one case to the next case. But you have to look at a whole series of s and statistically, you can show that there is some marginal improvement, but the other part of this is that's really interesting is that the metrics that are used for winter storms are not necessarily ones that society has an interest in very difficult to determine the value of these odds of. The sort of cost benefit analysis. That's done. Right. Just because you've decrease the forecast spread by a couple percent. Does that really have a significant impact on? What's realized? Is it worth it? I guess consumers is it worth. Yeah. So let me step ahead to on samba forecasting because we know that the predictability or lack thereof requires centers samba view, how are these? Forecasts made in our the members of the individual and some members equally likely send it to both you guys. So from fumble forecast. Yeah. They members on initial necessarily equally likely on the idea say, let's stick go away from on sambas for just a second and go to the farm and look at you know, growing corn suppose, you had your asked the likelihood that the the yield of particular variety of corn by planting samples of it. You might just take a handful of corn from a broadcast into the field and watch it grow. And then try to make some estimates about what the yield would be if you had several samples of that. Well, the problem with that is the seeds could land on rocky areas and not grow some the seeds could be spoiled depends on the weather during the season the growing season. So how's this relate to on samba forecast? When you select members for non samba, you want them to be placed in regions are going to grow. So you get some sufficient spread in the unsellable forecast. You have to recognize that the Air's in the forecast can grow. The uncertainties can be flow dependent and grow in different directions. Not all errors are equal. And so the selection of on. Samba members is really a tricky business on the European centre. Does this using what are called singular vectors, which just disturbances which grow rapidly over prescribed amount of time? And what they're trying to estimate is the probably distribution of forecast errors at a final time. What they're going to do is look at the initial conditions and they have an estimate for the initial conditions. Are you wanna take samples from that estimate of the initial conditioners put into your forecast model on in regions where things are going to grow rapidly? And then they can look at the spread of those forecast to get some sense of the likely probability density function at the final time for the forecast. And that's seems to have been a pretty productive way of generating these forecasts. I think it's important no-doubt bringing John hare. It's important note that when you look at the spread in the individual almost I mean, if they're tightly packed you have an idea that the model it self is confident, but if they're widely spread you have no idea among that distribution, which one is. More likely than the other. Yeah. I I look at this as a non expert, I don't I don't deal with this as a research question. But what you just said Greg is a really important guidepost for how somebody like me. And and then people who might use these things for operations might interpret them. There are going to be days where you can say to yourself boy, you know, even though we're not sticking with just one simulation. Here. We're looking at a whole collection of them. They're all saying the same thing that does tell you some valuable information on that particular, let's say Wednesday. And then if it's followed by a Friday in which there's a whole collection of solutions that come out of that same sample, then you just can't con- as confidently say that you know, what's going to happen on the following day. But you can but what you can do. And this is a nice thing that you couldn't do without the unsolved as you can kinda give some sense to the to the forecast consumer what sort of bounce should that person expect in terms of the uncertainty. And that's you know, that's fantastic rather. Like, if you go to the doctor, and you have a cough and. Doctor says I'm one hundred percent sure all you have is a cold as opposed to going there. And having somebody say, well, you know, it could be one of eight different things. I can't be certain what it is. But you should have a second check on this as it gets a little bit worse or better. And so the spread you know, is really going to be depend on whether or not you have a really robust on samba. And so that's really a tricky thing is how do you take the on samba data just wanna take it based on is there a lot of spreader a little spread? But also there, you know, emerging lots of very sophisticated post processing techniques that allow people to really begin to estimate the probability is on the onset of snowfall or the probability that of when the the change to rain might occur. So there are a lot of other things you have to do once you have that on samba forecast to correct it because it may have some biases that you want to remove the ways to of post processing to get more value out of it. That sounds awesome. Okay. So we're gonna have to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about winter storms, and the structure of winter storms, and I know John you're gonna be chomping at the. It to get it this. You are a winter weather expert extraordinary, and I can't wait to get both of your inputs on that. And we'll be right back. Back to other geeks. Dr Greg Postel with professors, John Martin and Michael Morgan from the university of Wisconsin Madison talking about the structure now of whether citizens and in particular of winter storms, and John I'm going to you. You are a master a leading expert in the world about understanding what winter storms look like. And how they behave. What the heck is whole notion of wrap around precept, and that comet shape to these storms will thanks. That's nice of you to say on the first pot the comet shape of the till I was kidding on the first part between I knew that. I just a diplomatic thing to do commercial appeal. But the the wraparound structure of these storms is a consequence of the the way in which they develop in mid-latitudes whether systems are very symmetric the vertical motion distribution on abroad scale is to the east of the disturbances aloft and sinking occurs to the west of them. And so the cloud mass is usually. On the eastern side of these storms. The interesting pot of of well developed storms, those that are approaching the end of their full development stage is that on the northwest quadrant in the northern hemisphere. They'll be wrap around cloudiness. And that cloudiness has considerable precipitation falling out of it most often in a winter storm, a large fraction of that'll be falling as snow the notion the word that's been used a lot to describe some of the heavy snow in the northwest quadrant of these storms so called wrap around precipitation, and that to me that implies that the precipitation particles and the vertical motion that generates them has occurred somewhere else, and then those potholes have been imported into that portion of the storm, and it robs that pot of the storm of it's really interesting dynamics, which so in real world on the heavy snow is produced locally in that motion of the storm. And so that Biggs and explanation for what drives the production of the vertical motions the upward vertical motion that do it. They're not this. No isn't being brought in. From somewhere else that's being locally produced and dropped right there. So let's talk about why it's produced locally go for I think it's produced locally because there are several different processes going on in the atmosphere that are contributing to the production of two things at once. One of them is the development in the late stages of a cyclone of really beautiful thermal ridge that connects the peak of the warm sector in the storm, which by this point in its evolution is far removed from the minimum sea level pressure. Yeah. It connects that peak of the of the one sector to the center of the cyclone that thermal ridge is pot and Postle of a process that is among the most fundamental for the development of cyclones in that is there's a rearrangement of the circulation at two different levels in the atmosphere that leads to the production of vertical motions. And that is what we call w-what disinfection differential in the vertical. Actually, and that volatility infection simultaneously Benz the thermal structure into the shape of the thermal ridge. So the thermal ridge that connects the warm sector to the lows. Center in the northwest. Quadrant of the storm is a really a hotbed for the production of upward vertical motions that at the same time. Our rearranging the thermal structure into the most exquisite structures that we see on the globe. They are in the tropics. They are beautiful and you can argue right done. Tell me if I'm correct here that the large part of that is non fungi, medical, correct? This is associated with the rotation of the thermal field, not requiring Genesis that's correct. Especially if one considers the flow, that's quasi non divergent. And so, and that's the largest pot of the flow in the mid latitudes. Yes, there's no front. Genesis of much accord that occurs in the strove or Neely non divergent flow in that portion of the storm that makes it really really interesting question that motivated from Johns really great explanation for the formation of these precipitation structures since it's largely non front genetic. And we're talking about abandoned structures and earlier are these more easily. Forecasts are better forecast models. Have you observed a an improvement in the forecast of them over the last decade or several? That's a great question. Dave Novak who's now at an MC. And I forget what particular position, but it's pretty high up at MC Dave was a graduate student at Albany. And he did work that looked at the actual banding within this portion this north west -cluded quadrant of the storm. And he abandoned the notion that, you know, this is just think about purely non divergent winds, and he looked at the full wind up there. And so layered on top of the broadscale forcing four Vert upward vertical motions. And that portion the storm which really does come from fortissimo rearrangement by the geographic wind. There is quite often front genetic activity. That's forced by the ages. Drove pot of the window. And so that on top of the broadscale of vertical motions in that region. I think probably accounts for the band's so. So just to answer the question. I'm not sure that the forecasting has gotten any substantially better by better understanding of this process. It's just that the expert judgement that one might use to interpret forecast models and their output is better because you understand the underlying physics. I think the understanding the physical processes key lean any other sorts of improvements with can understand the structure, and you're certainly pointed toward structure getting more at if since that's that thermal ridge that gets formed as sort of a key part of most mid-latitudes cyclone. Yeah. Lice that's something that models can handle pretty well. Is it a consequence of that that we might see that these wraparound prese obstruc so-called wraparound for station structures or probably more easily forecast because it's a significant. I think that's right. I think they have maybe maybe what you're suggesting. I think I would agree with in this case, that's such a predominant dynamical footprint of the life cycle of the storm that. If you don't get that. Right. You don't you don't have a chance of getting anything else right in the models? And we know that they get a lot of it. Right. So. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that it's such a big piece of the puzzle that they do usually do a fairly good job. And then on top of it. There's embroidered some measure scale front Genesis on the adjoining. Yes. And so the front Genesis on the edge of that. Now, this is getting in the weeds, and I'll back out of the weeds and just a second. But that fund Genesis is that associate with deformation in this quadrant of the cyclone because we hear a lot about that as being the deformation zone. And in fact, it's some of it is, but a lot of it's not. But some of it might be associated that front. Genesis on the band is that what you're saying, John. Well, yeah, it could be one. It could be the horizontal deformation the flow or divergence in the flow because I would be appealing now to the non geographic pot of the flow. Broadly to explain any frenetic activity that takes on any high profile, and it has that possibility that both of those components are contributing. So yes, I'd say that's probably accurate. Let me pull out of the weeds for a second. And just say that that north western side of these winter cyclones is a horrible. Place to be in terms of winter weather, if you to drive or travel, I've lived in Kansas for ten years, and we oftentimes got in that part of the winter storm, and it is really tough to manage because visibilities are often cut to near zero you have blowing winds out in the planes, and it is a vicious place to be on a winter storm, and I can tell you living through many of them if you have to travel or have to manage your way through those those are uncomfortable times because that can be pretty scary stuff. That's right. That's a really you're exactly right to horrible place to be unless you love the winter. And you don't have to get anyway, you don't have to go anywhere. Exactly. Let's see let's talk about one more aspect of storms. We talked about a little bit not the northwest side necessarily. But let's talk about the fronts like the surface fronts in particular. I guess they're actually three dimensional. So it's not just the service, but we often are taught early on that fronts, the rain and bad weather with fronts is associated with them acting like shovels, they lift the air out ahead of them in a way that shovel would that's not how it works for the most part explained that. Yeah. That's a that's a useful Eurispes device to think of there was a snow plough or shovel, but they're much more interesting than that. There's a tendency at active fronts, and I'd call active fronts after John Sawyer who was a great British meteorologist the mid twentieth. Century active fronts, or those associated with clouds and precipitation, and that that, you know, that's persistent an active fronts are characterized by something that Michael mentioned earlier Fronta. Genesis the tendency for the horizontal winds to intensify affecting temperatures of different characteristics or air of different temperature characteristics towards each other so differential temperature invention. Intensifying temperature gradient, and that leads to an imbalance in the mid latitude flow that is compensated for by the production of a secondary circulation. Anonymous, drove executive action where the warm air rises in the coldest, sinks and that accounts for the air ascending at the front. Not no plow snowplough. Right. But I would also I mean as John's ascribed at this process. That the circulation that occurs in the vicinity of fronts when the horizontal temperature gradient or is getting stronger bet leads the Clinton production of clouds and precipitation, but you could also view if you're talking about a snow plow of some sort or shovel of some sort that shovels moving relative to the snow in picks it up, right? Well, you could look at air moving toward a front. The front has a sloping structure to it. Depending what frame of reference your any of their air moving toward the front or the front moving toward the air the air has to rise along that if it's going to conserve certain properties. And so I think as John explained earlier that as a heuristic it's useful to think about fronts that way. And in fact, in some ways, you can view them that way, if you look at things that say so called Ason tropic co-ordinates another way of looking at the atmosphere. I think there's some legitimacy to that argument. If you look at it from that. But it doesn't offer the rich explanation for the frontal structure and Sipa tation structure that this is tropic viewpoint. Dear member, and John when I was doing a weather watch in Madison. Throws people at home. Don't know. I was doing whether briefing presentation now is the law young graduate student, and I was talking about fronts or something. And then Michael chime in what's a front in front of like, I don't know the whole department, and it's a complicated question easy. It depends. I was thinking about well, it's a whole lot of things. And I think I gave one example of being including things like density currents and sea breezes because I was underneath the deformation rate is really small scale things, and you're like, those aren't friends. Stay totally a matter of terminology. But those were wonderful coversations. Forged the excellence that you have broadcast for years your current station. I paid him for that. I guess we're gonna take a little bit of a break. And we're gonna come back and talk about some of the bigger issues like climate and weather systems and some of the research, you're working on now. So we'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to whether geeks Dr Greg Postel, and we have today professors from the university of Wisconsin in Madison, Dr John Martyn. Dr Michael Morgan, we've been talking all morning long about winter storms, whether predictability we've gotten in the weeds little bit hopefully that didn't scare you away. But we try to bring it back to sort of real issues and the problems that we confront with owner storms and another problem that we're going to be confronting and in the future. And we are now in fact is climate change. And we want to talk about John some of your and Michael some of your recent research, which was very revealing in terms of the amount of cold air that is available anymore. And and how you came across that because it is a remarkably brilliant, but yet almost back of the envelope way of looking at how the world is changing good. Oh, well, you a couple years ago was two thousand eleven twelve we had a really boring winter and Madison it wasn't snowing much. It was cold and Tripoli Libya. It was cold in Alaska, and it frustrated me having you know, like in the winters much do. So I had to figure out a way to enjoy the winter, even when we didn't have one and the best way to do that is to, you know, celebrate its depth somewhere else. And so one way to do it was to look at the extent horizontally over the hemisphere of air that was as cold as minus five degrees celsius at about a mile above sea level in minus five at that level tends to be the rains, no dividing line and went to storms or something close to it as anyway. So that was what I was in my mind, and it it occurred to me, you can calculate the aerial extent of this cold air every single day in the wintertime any other time years. Well, and then with the availability of these long-term time series of reanalysis data one can look at this back seventy years. And so I started to look at has this areal extent on average in a winter season. January and February been changing over the last seventy and to my surprise. Maybe not to my surprise to my Joe, my I was happy about it. We found out that it systematically shrinking at every threshold level that you choose at eight hundred and fifty mill about one mile of the ground. So the the aerial extent of cold air around the northern hemisphere. North Pole in the wintertime is getting smaller each Windass since nineteen forty eight. And it doesn't seem to have any explanation other than the southern edges of it keep on getting eroded by the fact that we have an increase over those seventy is of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that re radiates energy back to the surface and a road some of the cold air that is remarkable. And there's no clear example of sort of this depleting resource of cold air that doesn't mean we're not getting winter doesn't mean we're not getting snow, but there is the typically less and less of both. It sounds like. Yeah. And this hemispheric haven't. In any given longitude sector like sense as central North America. You may well have a period where it's exceptionally cold even against the standard that's been set for seventy or average. But that means somewhere else in the hemisphere most likely because the trend is downward overall most likely somewhere else having an exceptionally one similar period. And that's been true for the last seventy is. Did you find any similar tendencies, I guess or trends in the southern hemisphere vortex? Same thing is true. In the southern we to a lesser extent the decree the rate of decreases a little bit less there because the continent in the atmosphere is considerably less than it is in the northern hemisphere. That's pretty remarkable stuff. Now, did you stop somewhere near? Well. You said eight hundred eighty what if you went up near the trouble pause or went up into the stratosphere the stratospheric polar vortex. Did you see did you look for civil? And if you did did you see changes there as well? I haven't done that yet. But that's easy to do. It would be the exact same calculation with different variable at a different level. But it'd be really interesting to know, I suspect we'd probably see a cooling in the stratosphere and the lower part of the stratosphere. Withdrawal higher. Yeah. That's consistent. With what the satellites are telling us, John. I think that the diagnostic that you've developed have been applying over the last several years is really a nice comprehensive one the look at measures of as you described it the the shrinkage of the cold air during the wintertime, and you look at this also during the rest of the year. Yeah. It shrinks away to almost zero in the northern hemisphere around July tenth to the twentieth. But the the day on which disappears and reappears is interesting to you can kind of see that gap widening a little bit. So even into the summertime its discernible signal to a nice measure of the global nature of climate. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Right. What do you think that would change the distribution or statistics of the cyclones that roam around the periphery of the polar vortex or the circum polar flow of the the weather systems? In other words that go by the world, you know, that we get our snowstorms arrangements. Is it short of shape and intensity of? Of that coal pool is that going to change the storms that we get trying to bring this into practical terms, say live in New York where you live in Chicago or anybody gonna change anything. I would think in John this is just John's diagnostic look to this a lot. But if that five degrees celsius isotherm mine. Lies in the bundle of isotherm 's that characterizes the northern hemisphere's main barracuda city if that's shrinking might say something about the shift in the location of the psych loans. It's I don't know if it says anything about the intensity you'd wanna look at how other isotherm Erland rejects those isotherm therms is changing as well in that bundle. But may not change the intensity, but maybe the track. Yeah, that's a very good point. I think that the one would have to look through a deeper column, and maybe take a call him average thousand five hundred Bill about sickness or something and see whether or not the gradient is weakening at current latitudes. Where it's been strong. And then if it's migrating pole, which I suspect it is. I think you could show that I think it'd be quite easy to show that might be a neat way to to back out a poll word increase in frequency of cyclones may or may not be occurring right now. Sounds like an undergraduate thesis and then making. Yeah, I think so because it's kinda got some pieces that are readily assemble that. Yeah. Module. Now along with that. I mean, you one way to measure, the some metric of frequency, and or intensity of the weather systems that roam through what about you've been working on this sort of this jet parameter, waving of the Jetstream, right? And that's been changing as well. Is that correct? Yeah. And I don't really know how directly it's connected to the track of weather systems. I know there should be a connection I explored. What exactly it might be? But I think there's ways that one can objectively identify the spine of the two species of jet jet. Streams that that occurred near the trouble northern hemisphere. The sub-tropical jet at low latitude in the polar jet, which is much more meandering, but at high latitude, and I think we figured out a way to do that myself and some of my graduate students have figured that out. And then we're using that metric to determine how wavy is that line that one my draw through the middle of the spine of the jet around the hemisphere. How wavy is it? And it seems like it's become in both species. It's become systematically wavier over the same seventy a period. What that means? I'm still exploring. I don't know. All I can say now is I can report the fact that both species of jet by this objective measure in a flexible of active measures feature based measure has become wavier. Sounds like. Measure of wave activity, rancher fee of some kind like a vortices squared or something like that. That's in the weeds, but the. Greg. Some of the critics of of the paper that was submitted on. This have said look at local wave activities are on exactly the right track. And I have to educate myself about that before I can really get this thing off the ground among many other things. Yeah. I'm just kidding, right? But this is a global measure or atmosphere measure of the waving this not local measure, and that's an important distinction. I think. Yeah. That's right. Well, so do you think that goes hand in hand with maybe changes? I mean, it sounds like it's related to if associated with or one in the same of blocking frequency over the long term like we're now starting to see there's plenty of research out there. Thanks to Austria here at the weather channel's been working on notions of these very large amplitude much more Meridional rather than zonal anomalies in the Jetstream. So we're seeing more of them big ridges, more blocks that would sort of equate to more waving probably by many measures some wondering if that's part and parcel of this whole notion that we're losing some of the power of the west wind in the Jetstream. Yeah. That might be true. I haven't really pushed this idea into that realm. I know people have been talking about that. And it's a really excellent place to go next. But I'd have to educate myself about that too. I know Michael's working on some. What is what is Stanford linear? Linney modeling in one of the problems they were using as a basis for developing this linear, inverse model is blocking in the Pacific. So it's related to that. Right. And so I mean just blocking in general, not focusing on the on the linear inverse, which is really a powerful tool and group of people working on it here, Wisconsin, I remember I built one and was the private sector. I built a linear inverse model to look at predictability out a couple of weeks, and it was really good. So they can show significant skill beyond what dynamical model, but when the interesting things if you can begin to ramp up in a local sense sort of the wave of the flow, and then put it into a favorable regime may be large scale die fluent flow. And you have lots of ways upstream of it. I think there's been some work back in the eighties nineties that looked in mechanisms that contribute to the growth of blocks. And they have to have just the right structure. And so we've been using this limb to identify optimal structures that when fed into you know, that are up stream of blocking cyclones or precede balking cyclones, and what what do they grow into? So that's they're still work that's ongoing. But it's kind of an interesting question. Those blocks are very very impactful weather James whether you on the good side of them. They can bring kind of fair anomalous weather really warm times that last week's in the wintertime, and they can also be nasty cold weather producers as well in the wintertime, which can last. For weeks so blocking phenomenon those are challenging aspects are very difficult to forecast. And as you said, Michael that we know yet really know a whole lot about how they're evolving in the climate changing world. The most famous storm in the universe is three hundred plus year old block and on Jupiter. Red spot. Yeah. So it's a big any cyclone. And it's kind of who knows? It's there. It's like a mode honor something like that. For sure. Oh, that's so fun. All right, guys. If there's anything else that you wanna talk about I am almost out of topics here. So if you want to. If there's anything there that you can think of that you wanna bring up we can do it. Otherwise, I am going to. I am going to close the show. How about that? It was a wonderful works along was seems like it was about five minutes. But it was eleven hours is what I'm being told. No. It was great, but John and Michael wonderful professors at u w Madison the real UW just kidding the. It is it is a great school to go to if you're interested in whether of of any kind and these guys are the best in the business. And so thank you guys so much Dr John Martin, and Dr Michael Morgan for joining me on whether this week talking all things from winter storms to predictability some climate. Change is spend a wonderful. Our thank you guys so much for joining us. All right. Take care of. And until next week. Maybe we'll have to do this again and to and extended by a couple of hours because I could keep going. I take guys. Thank you very much for joining us on it gets.

John I Dr Michael Morgan Dr Greg Postel Madison university of Wisconsin Dr John Martin New York graduate student Jetstream Richmond Virginia Ford cough America Wisconsin Kansas John hare Bend Samba
What Did Mojo Catch His Son Doing?

Mojo In The Morning

10:28 min | 2 months ago

What Did Mojo Catch His Son Doing?

"My john martin. Good to have you guys listening to the show today. Oh man you guys will never guess what. I walked in on my son doing in his room this past weekend. We'll take you guess. Maybe it was cleaning no wrong wrong. Wish son Jacob my middle son. What was he doing. What did i walk in. And was stunned and shocked and amazed that i saw related my kids. It's cleaning if i see him clearly shocked. She said meaning she didn't listen. You didn't listen out better when i said. Now you're now. You're not allowed to answer again because you just weren't paying attention her. What what's yours joey. Would you said vaping they being now now this. It's something that relieves stress say now. No yoga yoga doesn't it. He has been doing it He and his mom have been doing yoga in the basement. taking an online class from rano which by the way happy birthday terrain is chelsea. Told me was her birthday over the weekend. So i've against yoga already been banned from megan. Guess what jacob. I caught jacob doing when i walked in on him doing in his room. I'm gonna say hoarding food. What nell but it's funny that totally different note chelsea comes downstairs with a bag full of crap and i go i go. Where's like was that a garbage bag. That was just like somewhere in the house. Like we didn't know about because this is all from jacob's room. It was like fifty empty ice mountain. Water bottles you know and a whole bunch of crap all right well let me tell you what it is because of Nobody's ever gonna guess it I caught him knitting. All he's knitting. Jacob yes. I walked in and i saw my my twenty One year old. Son turn into his grandma. Any was really wanna learn. Actually i looked it up to figure out. I'm like this is kind of while. I actually googled. Caught my son in his bedroom. Doing and you should see all the crazy crap that came up. I mean there is like honestly crazy things that people caught their kids. Doing what you have to call us up and tell us of you. Cut your kid doing something interesting in there. But you're right though as far as knitting is a big deal for the twentysomethings with Eamonn -iety you know. Kids have nowadays. And what's going on with our world falling apart but he yeah he was He was in their knitting. So if you're making something special. I gotta be honest with you. If he's making something today for me because of it wouldn't even fit like my hand like it would not even be a glove. It was so tiny. But i wrote this down and i thought that this was an interesting. It says knitting is good for the nervous system. Blood pressure anxiety levels and overall wellness. And it's a new thing. That Millennials in younger are doing so. I guess there's a lot of online knitting tutorials for them to do that. Excuse you. He's a psychology student. So i think the he learns that in his psychology classes. Would you ever consider it to stress relief. I i've i've had numerous attempts at hobbies but knitting to me. Just didn't seem like it would be fun to do. I think i'd be more apt to want to use a sewing machine because it would. Just be something mechanical. That i can play with in a fast and yeah and that can do all that stuff like maybe so patches on or something i dunno i but part of the stress relief and the anxiety which is know is taking your time slowing down life. That's why knitting and doing puzzles. And even yoga post a slow you down. Which helps you know drawing journaling. Making you take pause from this chaotic crazy life. i saw. Joey has a coloring book and crayons. Coloring laugh where do you guys do that. You guys do that before you go to bed or when you guys do it. Yeah like doing it before bed. How about you meghan. I would be lying if i said it wasn't in the studio right now. And sometimes in the middle of my day. I do need like a five or ten minute break. I'll just sit down somewhere where normally don't work and just like do it for like ten minutes until i calm down. What kind of coloring books do you guys each mines. An adult one. One of minefield was curse words. Inappropriate things just like Like really symmetrical flowers. That are really peaceful just philip. Somebody's telling me the golden girls one genius. Yeah have that one. I gotta crack it open. People are saying that. I'm so tired man hours sleep last night. I got two hours. I didn't fall asleep last night. I wake up at three thirty. I didn't fall asleep until one thirty. I got on. I was on that i on. Tv watching chicago pd. And i and i seen the episode like twelve times. But if for some reason i couldn't fall asleep i was in. I turn off everything. And then i was like i thought maybe i maybe knitting would be a good thing me to do at the time. Although i swear to you. I do need to do something to fall asleep. That's not drug related. Now what's what yes what's gail. Hey how are ya was going on you. Are you doing anything at night to try to catch yourself. This falsely bor definitely the coloring books. They're very relaxing. Calming makes you more tired and you just kind of doze off. What are your family members. Think about you going back to the days of coloring. My husband thinks i'm crazy. Now as an adult do you go get the better. Like kranz or markets. Because when i was a kid i used to have the hand me downs in the crappiest ones. If i was going to go back to coloring i would go and i would find the best ones possible like the ones like. I'd be the kid in the class with the best pencil case. You can't improve crayola. i mean down. He'll broken on the back. The creole is with sixty. Four colors in there. You know that ninety six the biggest one twenty four with you guys. The high point fine tip markers of the better ones at my daughter's spending our money on. And then i bought on amazon the big posters that are all to color the poster and it depends what you spend like a whole month color in it. Yeah gotta myers you can get the the cops and the vases and do those two and bake them all. You actually do crafts and stuff member when you're a kid in your teacher would have you make plates for your parents right. You do it for yourself. They have something like sorry. I've now i'm gonna try the ultimate cran bucket. Two hundred gram. Where do you get that as the metallic ones fluorescent wounds darkwa there's not that many colors by the way at all right they just mix they take twelve different versions of purple. It's just like when you look for paint for your room. Go on that wall and home depot. It's not just three colors of purple. They gotta give seven hundred choices to that. My wife will never decide what color we should have. The the problem is if you have the you can't like slyly carry it around with you. There's just scharping yellow buck. That's a big thing like if you're going to bring it with you do you know. Walk up to the park star coloring. Whatever i don't know how cute i just got a visual mojo. His little color and book his book and crayons go into the park. You what's up. Hey i've watched frozen to fall asleep. I've watched it. I watched it so many times. I can just close my eyes and just fall asleep on it. My daughter year-old old me crazy with that movie. So i want to sleep. She says money. You wanna watch six do. Isn't it funny that you're right if i put a movie on fall asleep in a second. Yeah my problem is though is i fall asleep to like you know. Law and order. Svu or chicago pd. And i ended up staying up. Because i want to see what happens at the end. Can't fall asleep on that because it's too intense. I need to know all the information exactly and galen nbc's the worst. If i fall asleep to that one. I instantly wake up with anxiety then. I need to start knitting again. 'cause i wanna know exactly if the husband really killed the the wife or yes the husband. Why always have to have the husband being the killer. I can't the wife be the one. I liked to texting and saying. Just go back to drinking. Do it does it. Does it for you all the time out to get up early. The next morning on the area. I was notable. I'm no i didn't i. I can't do edibles during the week because it ruins me for the week. So i only can do it on a friday night once a week for me but last night was just brutal. I only literally same thing happened to me last week. Two hours of sleep. So i mean i try you know. Try to take care of yourself to every now and again. I've done that a couple of times college. That bishop is exactly as as trucker to me guys with truckers on my walk through the name.

jacob rano john martin nell Eamonn joey megan chelsea meghan Joey kranz philip chicago myers amazon galen nbc bishop
Entrepreneurship 101 - Not Accepting How Hard It Is - Episode 13

Farm Small Farm Smart

10:53 min | 11 months ago

Entrepreneurship 101 - Not Accepting How Hard It Is - Episode 13

"Happy Finance Friday. It's entrepreneurship one. Oh one I'm your host Diego today. We are continuing on with the twenty five reasons. Why BUSINESSES FAIL FAIL OR FALTER? Were currently on reason number. Eleven were in the mindset section of reasons. Meaning a lot of what you think about. And a lot of how. Your brain approaches business is going to affect the success of that business. A business is really an external ization of your thoughts. So if you don't have good thoughts if you don't have your mind right well the business ain't going to be right so reason number eleven. Why BUSINESSES FAIL FLAVOR FALTER is failing to acknowledge how hard this really is. This is a big one in farming. We all talk about that. Romanticism of farming living out in the land home standing being in the country. The images that that conjures up is just. I think part of our DNA at this point people thought about that a hundred and fifty years ago in dreamed about that. We still do. It's part of who we are working for yourself. Being self sufficient we all want to some degree but that comes at a price that beautiful pristine lifestyle is actually really hard to achieve but outside of winning the lottery or getting a big inheritance. Living that lifestyle is a lot of hard work. You can't just show up. And have that. But people see it and they want to emulate it. They want to be the next homestead or they. WanNa be the next Justin roads or a homestead youtuber. They might not know what really goes into that. Well what goes into. That is a hell of a lot of work a ton of work over a ton of time. It's incredibly hard. You don't wake up and have lottery. Net John Martin not as farm overnight. We see it on instagram. It's in front of us so much now with instagram and facebook and Youtube that it looks easy in we judge ourselves against somebody is day two thousand day three thousand four thousand and we. WanNa be there on day one. Well that's not how it works. And if you think going to be the one person to fast track it to take the shortcut you're not because getting to success really isn't about taking short cuts it's really about embracing what Seth Godin would call the long cut the hard path and if you can acknowledge how much work it's GonNa take to start a business and make sure you're ready for it and tie into last week's episode and have the confidence to do it then you might as well not start. I think when people start businesses or conceptualize a business conceptualize a business. The thing that they focus on most of the things that they liked they gravitate towards well. It's going to be fun to see my honey in this bottle that I designed the already know what the logo is. GonNa look like. We're build this really cool brand. Get there some really crappy stuff you're going to have to do is part of that job. Everyone's dream job sucks. Some days. When I was a financial advisor we had one client. That had a very high net worth he owned a business and I got talking to him. He would refer to himself as business owner in janitor and I thought that was interesting. Here's this guy worth a million millions of dollars. What does he mean by janitor? Well he owned a local chain of restaurants where he lived and sometimes the person who is in charge of janitorial duties. They didn't show up or they quit. Well who is the janitor in those situations? He was the guy worth millions of dollars who owns other restaurants so he would joke about cleaning soiled toilets and dirty urinals and play it off like hey this is part of what it is. He embraced the suck of it. And I think he took a lot of pride. Actually in that. I'm not afraid to do what needs to be done because entrepreneurship is really hard. You can't ignore the parts that you're not gonNA love so much. You have to acknowledge that yes. I'll be doing some stuff that really fills my soul and I'm GonNa do some other stuff. Just drains my soul. And you're probably going to be doing more sold draining stuff than you are so filling stuff. I'm three years in running this business paper Paco. And I'm still doing stuff today that it sucks pack Boxes Clean Aware Warehouse Grunt work work that I could hire out for fifteen dollars an hour yet. I'm the person that owns this also doing high level work but I'm doing the grunt work as well. It's would it's taken to make it work. It's been working long days getting up early staying up late to do this. That's not the picture of entrepreneurship that people want. People want I'm a farmer may maybe in the field. That's going to be great but you're going to be doing stuff by headlight by headlamp late at night in the rain in the cold. Stuff's going to go wrong. You have to acknowledge how hard this is going to be up front if you know the chances of failure high. If you know it's GonNa be hard. What can you do going in? What can you do as a business owner for one except that you can control what you can? When there's a lot of things that will be out of your control. That will go wrong. Why have stuff going wrong when you can control it if there are things that you don't like in Your Business and you can solve them by just making a hard choice and saying well? I'm not going to deal with this person. I'm going to control this situation. Control it tired enough without that person or that service or that thing that you're dealing with inundated basis you can build the support group around you find others who are in the same struggle. If you're trying to do this alone it can wear you down to a nub you can feel like it's you against the world your spouse might not be that support. You may have to go outside. Find Somebody who understands the challenges that you're going through as a farm owner as a business owner and celebrate with them complain with them you can find some solidarity in what's hard control what you can when things are going to be hard. You don't have to do an all at once. What's going to be easier doing one hard thing at a time or doing five hard things at the same time sometimes? It's better to slow down and take on one thing. Finish it and then take on the next thing then to try and do it all at once with unknowns with limited bandwidth with only so much dress with only so much energy and so much money. I think we like to think of ourselves as superhuman. Because maybe we've gotten this far in in business and we can just fix everything and do it. All when the best course of action would be to step back and say. Hey you do this first. And then we'll move onto the next thing. I can't do it all. There's some wisdom and saying slower is better. When things are incredibly hard they can whittle you down they can take you down to the NUB in periods where it's hard first instinct again is to push through to take on more to get it over with to get it done. Sometimes that's not the best course of action. Pause pullback give yourself a break. It doesn't matter if you burn out solving the hard problem only to never solve another hard problem again or do worse on the next heart problem because you burned out. Then it is. Just a pause refresh take longer on the first problem so you don't burn out to begin with mental fatigue. Burning out given how hard this is is a huge stumbling point for business owners. It's a struggle point. Trickles out into the business? It trickles out into families. You need to avoid burnout like any to avoid the corona virus. You don't want to get it in the first place so social distance yourself sometimes when stress builds up social distance yourself from the business all right. Enough bad coronavirus. Puns so another potential woo reason on why businesses could fail. This was reason number eleven failing to acknowledge how hard this is. It's never gonNA get easier. It just gets different her. It's up to you to handle those differences. Thanks for listening until next time be nice. Be Thankful and do the work.

business owner Diego Seth Godin John Martin instagram Justin advisor Youtube facebook two thousand day fifteen dollars fifty years three years
Its not an easy business.

MarketFoolery

20:29 min | 2 years ago

Its not an easy business.

"Thanks to grammar Lee for supporting market. Fully Gramley is a communication tool that helps people improve their writing to be mistake. Free clear effective. You can start writing confidently by going to grammar dot com slash fool and get twenty percents off a grammar Lee premium account today. Monday may six welcome to market fuller. I'm Chris hill. Joining me in studio today, Jason Moser in the house. Thanks for being here. Alot we're going to dip into the full mailbag. Let's start with the Berkshire Hathaway meeting which always gives us a couple of headlines coming out of the meeting have you ever been? I've never made. I have. Yeah. It went. I think he was just once I win in. So of course, when you go with us. I mean, you get to go you have the press badge, and you sit up on the top and you get spoiled with the lunch and everything's easy in. So that was like no way, I'm topping that experience ever. So there's no way I'm going all the way out the Omaha just a wait in line to hear some guy say something I heard him say five years ago. You know, what else you can follow it on Twitter now, it's so robust and in. It's like you're there. I was thinking it's just like I don't watch a lot of baseball anymore. I love the Red Sox. But man, I tell you follow the Red Sox on Twitter, you I mean, they are that that's a. A great baseball Twitter presence right there. So you can do so much. Also, I think Yahoo finance has done. The livestream for people who are looking and watch the video I've talked to other analysts around here. It's like are you going out to along? Like, no, I'm just getting up and watching it in my pajamas really a lot of clips are still floating out there. So it's it's easy go over and over and over again. So let's get to a couple of headlines, and I up his craft Hines which. You know, it's it's impossible to read Warren Buffett's mind. But I'm wondering to what extent if any he's regretting the craft how the participation in the craft highs because Kraft Heinz came out and said that they're going to restate their earnings for twenty sixteen and for 2017 due to misconduct on the part of some employees. They say it's not going to be material. And I'm just going to go ahead. And grant them the benefit of the doubt and say, okay, it's not material. And if you look at the stock it's not falling through the floor. So clearly smarter more invested people literally more invested people than me are taking them at their word. Well, it's not falling through the floor any more. I mean like it's been an awful year date. It's basically been cut in half of horrible, twelve months and has really been a horrible existence ever since the merger in two thousand fifteen. So I mean at some point or another that floor kind of set itself, but you know, I started thinking about this with buffet. And so there was this one point like I dunno years ago where my wife kind of basically called me out on. It's you know, sometimes you as married couples. Do you talk with each other? And sometimes you just sort of the words are just kind of going in one ear and out the other. And and so whenever that would happen with me. And I would say something like, oh how about that? Eventually my wife figured out that how about that meant. Oh, I'm not listening. And so she called me on it. And I so now I can't do that anymore in with buffet. It's starting to feel like whenever he's like, you know, we're just going to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's kind of like he's just those words going in one you're out the because he does the same thing with with Wells Fargo, essentially, he's doing it with craft Hines. He kinda tends to do that. And that's fine. He's got billions doesn't really matter at the end of the day. But I do wonder how much this kind of grinds his gears because it has been obviously an awful existence since the merger. It is a very buffet style investment. I understand his perspective when he was asked about the long term value this company in regard to the brands that's kind of what he fell back on the brands. I don't know that I necessarily. We believe that going forward though, I think those brands are in in a bit of a bind. Red flags. Yes. And having to restate things, perhaps it's nice to see they're actually get out getting out in front of this kind of resolving and all, you know, I I don't know that I'm looking at this as an investment I want to have anything to do with anyway. So let's move away from Kraft Heinz for a second. When you see a company that you own shares of come out and say, hey, we blew the math. We have to go back and restrain like, I is it on a case by case basis because I was I was looking at this and sort of thinking through my own holdings and thinking to myself, you know, what depending on which company I own if they came out and said, oh, we're going to restate two years worth of earnings depending on which stock it is. I'm either rolling with it and saying, okay, you blew it. But it was lower level employees, and you're on topic. Whereas other stocks, I own I would think boy, I don't know this. This is one more check against you. Yeah. I mean, I think it is a case by case basis, but I will say. And we talk about these companies a lot on this show. It feels like for a while. It was Bank of America than it was Wells Fargo. So there are companies that get out there and are really in the spotlight, and they kick get out of their own way. Facebook is another one. I mean, it seems like every week we could just have that one segment of the show where it's like, you know, this week in Facebook screwing up again in so eventually privacy. Right. Eventually you get a little bit tired of it. Right. And so then you have to ask yourself is this really accompany worth owning? I in. I I think that is again, it's a case by case thing when I look at something like a craft Hines. I mean, it just don't see any kind of a competitive advantage there with the business to begin with. So this certainly would not be one of just sort of gloss over. I think it'd be one more reason to probably not want to own a so for this next story that comes out of the annual meeting it's worth remembering that? Last month. Yulon mosque said on Tesla's earnings call that tesla was going to be launching its own insurance product in the month of may and not surprisingly Warren Buffett was asked about that annual meeting and said point blank, it's not an easy business. And you know, there's some people online today said boy, he really called musk out there. I, you know, I don't know that I want to ascribe that to buffet. But she clicked, you know, the most generous interpretation of what Buffett said regarding tesla getting into the insurance business is good luck. But he did go out of his way to say. I'm not worried about them. I'm I'm more, you know, because Berkshire Hathaway owns Geico. I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about progressive. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, given given EON Musk's track record of behavior. I mean is this really someone you want to be getting your peace of mind from seriously? Like, I mean, you wanna mind sure. From that guy. I don't think so. And I mean, I'm a big fan of you must listen very clear. I support what he's doing. I love is big picture thinking, I'm rooting for the I there are points in time where I feel like maybe he's just you know, that's kind of silly candy. I think that was probably pretty silly. And apparently that candy still coming out insurance pales insurance is hard. That's why we like great reputable insurers that requires a lot of capital. There are a lot of regulations in. It's not easy. I mean, it was it was interesting. I thought when when he was asked about this potential insurance product in he noted that they would be writing these policies based on data. I mean, we'll dumb that's all like all good insurance companies right there policies based on data. Like, there's an entire industry that you know, the actuaries to get out there and figure this risk out based on data. So I mean, I think that when you look at what musk is trying to do with tesla with spa. Sex solar city somewhere in there as well. Yeah. I mean, I is is insurance for this Jews really worth the squeeze. I don't think it is. I love the back and forth. I think you've got yesterday versus tomorrow and in buffet in musk and two guys. I really appreciate in in honestly love as an investor. But there's no question that insurance is a very difficult business to run. I'd have to believe if they were going to be writing insurance product, it would be with another partner that actually dozen sure. And then I would imagine it would be basically just for people who have a tesla. Like if you don't have a tesla. I don't know why you would get insurance from them. But I mean, hey, he says a lot of stuff what about dating app? I feel like you know, owning a tesla. That's a that's a bar to clear socially. And it was like start matching people up. Tesla owners. I think I don't know. I mean. Yeah. And instead of going to be helpful sure instead of swiping left and swiping, right? Like musk. I'm sure would add a dimension. Right. Instead of that. It'd be like swipe diagonally or swipe four D or something of that nature. He's always throwing a bit of a bit of a forward-looking twist on things so Starbucks got a surprising promotional boost this morning Twitter was all a buzz about Sunday night's game of thrones episode that is to be expected because it's the final season of game of thrones. What was not expected is the fact that apparently a Cup of Starbucks Coffee made its way into the episode of game of thrones people were posting video of this and screen caps of this a half to believe there's a production assistant who is in the process of getting fired today for leaving a Cup of Starbucks Coffee on their unless I don't watch game of thrones. Maybe there was a story line about the first Starbucks opening in west rose. I don't know. But but. That's amazing. Because you hear the phrase all the time you can't buy that kind of publicity. And I would say the majority of time someone says you can't buy that kind of publicity if you step back and look at a given situation. No, you really can this is a situation where really Starbucks couldn't have bought this. I yeah, I feel like sometimes there are situations where things like this. Are there not accidents there planned out, but they are made to look like accidents? Now, I'm not I I have HBO. So you think this claimed? Well, no. And that's what I'm saying. I don't think it actually was. I mean thinks in some cases these types of things are it does it does feel like this was genuinely just someone missed this. Now, I don't watch game of thrones. Which is fascinating because I have HBO. And I and I love it for whatever reason just never got into game with bronze. But it strikes me. That of the rabid fan bases out there. Starbucks and game of thrones are two very rabid fan bases to tie these two together. I mean, there is there is some serendipity here that I think is going to work out for both entities. I I don't think there is a downside for either. Now, maybe there is a production assistant out there who's who's out of a job today. I don't know who we just we won't even go there. But I I don't think there's really any downside to something like this happening not for Starbucks product placement has been around for decades. And if they had gone. The idea to go to the producers of gaming throws me. Like, here's ten million dollars. We just want to scar. And of course, the producers would be like, no that doesn't make any sense. But but I mean now all of a sudden, we're thinking, okay. Is there some type of is is there some type of of time-warp here in game of thrones that didn't exist it possibly now. Does is this how they continue to tell that game of thrones story after the end of this. He's who knows. I mean, we as the viewer or potential viewer. And I tell you like I said, I don't watch it. But now I'm feeling like I may want to start because who knows what could develop from this. But I have to believe they're gonna milk it for all. It's worth quick shout out to Gramley for sporting today's episode grammar as a communication tool that helps people improve their writing to be mistake free clear and effective day. Encourage everyone even the best students even the top professionals to use grammer to do their best work and accomplish even more their goals. They help people show their best self through writing. And it's available across platforms, including online. Extension. Desktop editor and mobile keyboard checker, it's available on multiple browsers, chrome, Firefox safari. It's on platforms like I o s Android windows. Mac their free product reviews critical spelling and grammar, but Graham, really premium looks out for spelling grammar, plus structure style within context vocabulary suggestions conciseness readability for different occasions. Whether you're writing a business proposal or an essay for school, whatever it's so easy to use. I've actually been using it and Graham really free is easy to use. But premium just gives you a lot more great suggestions on vocabulary. I have found anyway. So whether you're looking to polish up your resume or just look smarter in your emails at work. Do yourself a favor checkout Gramley, go to grammar Lee dot com slash full and get twenty percents off your grammar Lee premium account today, that's grammar dot com slash fool for twenty percent off your Graham, really premium account, by the way. Way belated happy birthday to our man, Ron gross allow celebrating a little birthday this weekend. The big number a round number. I don't believe it was around. It wasn't like a special. No, I I don't think he turned seventy for a couple of years. So. Our Email address is market foolery at full dot com. Question from Brock Briggs whose twenty six years old and just started investing a year ago. Brock writes, I'd like to hear about the dangers and potential long-term downsides of index funds. Every book on financing, I read including several from my idolized investors rave about index funds. Yes, they're good in the long run and provide an easy way to grow your money without spending time watching news and reading ten case. But it seems like they have some gaping flaws that people don't talk about so much of the money in the market has to be dumped into these indexes that when top level managers of the funds make moves to buy and sell. They have to do so much buying and selling that it may create a natural spikes or dips in prices also with big fund companies like vanguard and BlackRock owning so many shares of all these companies in the indices what happens if a company like vanguard gains enough voting rights to make an impact on the company they own via their voting rights. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for a very thoughtful question. What do you think there are a lot of different angles here in first off? Let's just make sure we understand what an index fund is. And I mean index. On essentially is like a mutual fund, but it's a portfolio constructed to match or track. The components of a particular financial market index. The one that we always talk about is the S and P five hundred that standard and Poor's five hundred index, but as you can imagine there are many many different indices out there. I mean, that's there. There are lots of them in in that his point is is true. That not all indices are we saying indices indexes, not really sure kind kinda waffle there. Feel like it's a wanna be consistent though. I'm gonna it's gonna go with indices. All right. You know? And if I'm being pretentious, you'll you'll tell me after we finish taping. Don't I always? Well. Yeah. You do what I love about your honesty. I is. So so we as you can imagine just like stocks, just like the stocks that we talk, and they are not not all indices created equal. Some some indices are pretty easy pretty reliable something like the SNP. But I mean, if you look at something like the Russell two thousand which is made up a small cats that could be construed as being riskier because it's made up of. Cap companies perhaps in in emerging markets index would be something that would be riskier as well. So understanding the index in which you're invested is important, but ultimately, the fun changes when the index changes in index changes, it's it's Tibbets typically awaiting thing. And so when we talk about waiting, it's the amount that each company counts in the index, and there are a couple of divorces futile ways that these can be done. But if you look at the SNP, the S and P five hundred index is a market capitalization weighted index versus the Dow which is a stock price weighted index remember when apple made it to the Dow, and then they had that split these seven for one because they had to get that share price down to something that was a bit more in line with the rest of the companies in the index. But but the point is alternately that the main reason you see an index change is just due to the waiting. Which would be day by day thing based on stock price or market capitalization. And then these institutions will adjust their weightings as that happens now in in regard to institutions that might gain too much or gain enough shares to actually have a material of voting impact. I I mean, technically, I guess that's true institutions have a lot of money to throw around. But that's also kind of the thing is they have a lot of money to throw around in it needs to be thrown around to a lot of different companies. And so a couple of examples if you look at Wells Fargo, which is just, you know, one of the biggest banks out there vanguard owns about seven point three percent of the shares outstanding and Wells Fargo if you look at Boston beer, which is considerably smaller. Just a three billion dollar beer company van gardens about eight point one percent of those shares outstanding. So typically, they're not gonna ever have enough money to plow into one of these businesses to gain any kind of material voting impact. Anyway. In in a lot of cases companies are designed so that large shareholders can't get in there and do that in the first place. So typically, that's not really a concern. But I think he brings up a lot of very good points in that when we talk about index funds. They're not all created equal. And make sure that you understand what you're really trying to get out of that index before you start plowing money into the malignly one more Email before we wrap up from John Martin with the subject line. Thanks from a dad. John writes, dear fools, my car automatically connects to the most recent podcast as a result market fuller, usually comes on when my kids get in the car those parts that's well. They're going to be smart when they it older. It's great that your program is clean. And my eleven year old can listen. He's been listening for a few years, but recently started having interest in investing. We talk about investing about the companies you discuss, and he even started tracking some stocks. Thank you for the programming choice to keep it clean and forgiving us. Another conversation connection PS my teenage daughters think it's stupid. So that's an insult or a compliment. But I'm guessing they'll have no problem accepting their inheritance that your program influences. Sincerely, John, John. Thank you so much. That's a fabulous story to land in his son. Landon thank you for listening way to go. You started your investing journey much younger than I did. So you're on your way into land and sisters. I guess I would just say I get it. We're not everybody's Cup of tea. So and that's okay. So thank you for putting up with this show for the benefit of your dad, and your brother the other thing. I'd say is there's a podcast out there for you. Whatever you're interested in maybe Ernst didn't game of thrones or sports or entertainment or history or politics. Whatever it is. There's a podcast out there. So so go find it and find your own podcast. You wanna listen to and last? Not least whenever you're ready, ladies, we're going to be here at some point. You're going to start thinking about investing. Maybe when you're in college. Maybe when you get your first job whenever that time happens. The motley fool will be here, and we will help you. However, we can Amen Jason knows thanks for being here. Thank you as always people on the program have interest in the stocks. They talk about the motley fool may have formal recommendations for get Saddam buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. That's going to do it for this edition of market fuller. The show is mixed by Dan Boyd. I'm Chris hill. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

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John Mighton on math

The Current

25:25 min | 1 year ago

John Mighton on math

"This is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Matt Galloway. This is a podcast from the January January twenty first edition of the current. John says anyone can be good at math. Now full disclosure. I've always thought that that it was not a good math student so this should be an interesting challenge for him. John Martin is the founder of jump. Math it stands for junior undiscovered math prodigies. He here's a new book. It's called all things being equal. Why math is the key to a better world and John? Martin is with me in Toronto Studio. John Martin Good Morning. Good Morning I can be good at math really. Yeah if you gave me a couple of hours. I think you'd believe that really. Yeah why do you believe that anyone can be good enough. There's a couple apple reasons. I mean there's a lot of new research now in cognitive science that suggests that math is different from other subjects. And I can get into that in more depth. But it's it's it's more accessible to the human brain other subjects and that's surprising to a lot of people. Another reason is I mean I've seen I've seen students who struggle succeed over and over. So what am I. First students was re remedial great six student whose mom was told he could never learn math and he. He was afraid of the subjects years behind Last year we went out to celebrate the fact that he's now fully tenured professor. What yeah so? I've seen radical changes in the brain and people who learn math in and I actually struggled myself and who's seen those changes myself. You said that and you write this in the book that you didn't show an aptitude for math until you were thirty years old. Yeah about thirty so what was happening before that. You know the research suggests you can't get really good at something unless you practice efficiently and I was afraid to practice or you know. Make too much of an effort effort because I was afraid of meeting my limit. I had a very fixed mindset. I thought you had to be born with ability to do well and I really didn't WanNa find what my limitations were so i. I didn't work hard enough sometimes. They I do well but then I do terribly. I think a lot of people are like that. They won't make the effort because they're afraid that they will discover that they don't have the ability. What changed when you became thirty years old? Yeah well it was a series of accidents. I mean I'm a playwright and I was struggling as a playwright in the beginning and saw noticing. A you know a job office for a math tutor. I thought well maybe I could shoot a grade six because at that point I was reading a lot of science and I'm getting more interested in math. I thought maybe I could tutor at a low level and I started doing that that and and it was a revelation to me that by explaining the math and working at it over and over at my own pace things that were mysterious to me became easier and easier. You said something at the beginning of this. That's interesting you said. That math is easier than other subjects. The the assumption from a lot of people is that math is one of the hardest subjects at school. Yeah and that's the case as I make in the book we we have to. We have to drop that myth because at all levels from early childhood development right up to brain scans of mathematician. The research is suggesting adjusting. That math is accessible to any brand. So give you an example. The brain scans of mathematicians a couple of years ago and they thought they were using very high level all semantic processing complex linguistic areas of the brain. They got a surprise they found. Mathematicians are using the same a very primitive part of the brain that has the same sense of space a number that kindergarten and I told you that because mathematicians proved one hundred years ago that all math can be reduced a very simple concepts or steps that anyone can understand. So if that's the case why is it that so many of us think were bad at math. We have this idea. It's difficult I couldn't do it and when you are faced your parents with your child's homework you throw your hands up often in the air because you don't know what they're doing and you assume that that you couldn't wrap your head around. So why is that the case. I think there's a couple of reasons. One is math is more like ladder than other subjects. You know if you miss something. That's very hard to go on. And unfortunately teachers are my heroes. They've been responsible for the growth of John Math but teachers are sometimes asked to do things that aren't really well supported by evidence in the science of learning. So you know for example if you want to become great problem solvers which we which I do and and we do a jump you might think we'll start with the complex multi step problems but that's not a very efficient way to learn. It's better to start with more gradually with more scaffold folded problems and where you develop the basic skills and concepts and work your way up. What happens if you miss one of those steps on the ladder if you're incidental and you point to grade three three as as as a key step in in in that math ladder that you need to be on and if you miss that step things happen so what happens if you missed this step? Well a couple of things if you start to miss some some of the foundational concepts you. You simply can't think or solve problems you. You can't see the deep structure problems. You can't developmental representations if you've missed foundational concepts but the other thing that that I think is really overlooked. There's research that suggests as early as grade. One kids know where they are in the hierarchy. They know if they're in the inferior group the answer apologists call human status seeking primates if we're good at one thing it's knowing where we are in a pecking order and there's researchers suggest as early great one no matter how good a teacher is a child Knows that they have different expectations for them. And so if not everyone could learn math. You might think well those kids are GonNa have to adapt to being new in the inferior group but but if the research suggests everyone could learn math than we couldn't have devised a better way of shutting down the brain because once you decide you're in the inferior group you stop engaging working working you stop remembering. Things eventually develop anxieties by grade three or grade four and it makes it very hard for your brain to work and so if what's happening specifically in grade three in that year of of learning and learning about math. What's going on? Well I think that's where all the foundations for later problem solving our salvage or most of them I mean especially in multiplication and division understanding beginning to understand patterns and even the foundations of Algebra. A lot happens in grade three and I think also around on that age kids really start deciding whether they're going to engage in math or not you write about the pride that we often have in math illiteracy. What drives you around the bend when it comes to people championing the fact that they aren't good? Yeah I mean first of all it. Flies flies in the face of science because everyone even adults. It's never too late to learn math. And if you have a good teacher who can lay down the foundations for you and scaffold. Hold the learning into steps you can manage or unravel the concepts into threads. You can understand then anyone can move forward so that drives me crazy but it's also you know. Oh no one would say I'm not litter. Can't read we wouldn't be out about exactly because we understand. HOW IMPORTANT READING ISN'T I? Don't think people understand how important mathematics is and that's one of the arguments can in the book at every level in our society mouth is much more important than people think. Tell me jump math. You mentioned the airplay right You did a little bit of tutoring struggled With with your understanding of how good you could be math until the age of thirty. What is trump math eventually went back to school and got a doctorate in math and when I was finishing I thought I should give something back to my local community? So I started tutoring club in my apartment and I we were helping very challenged kids. I had a girl arrived. The first day who literally couldn't count by twos was working to build a grade one level in grade six and three years later. She went into academic grade nine math and then skipped. You're so I began to think. I think that that math was this tool for equity for really closing the gap between students and almost rewiring the brain and teachers eventually event invited us to come into the classroom and I got another surprise. Because I'm a playwright. I thought of the class is an audience. Then the only advantage we have a putting kids in a group is. They'll never get more excited together. Dirk I'm called calls collective effervescence when we all feel a sense of wonder curiosity together. I saw that happening in these classrooms and I realize it was far more efficient to teach kids in group than the one on one tutoring because that group excitement allows the brand to work much more efficiently. And I I see kids. I asked me to stay for recess to to do math. I just couldn't believe how excited they got together. And that's one of the tragedies when we think that kids are very different math that we have to differentiate widely early between kids because we don't get that group effect and if teachers are allowed to use evidence may based methods of instruction they close the gap very quickly and then take advantage of that Excitement that comes with the group. So you've said this a couple of times evidence based methods of instruction what are those evidence based methods and how are they different. Perhaps than what's being taught in the classroom from now or how it's being taught. Well there's evidence for instance that suggests that kids can easily get overwhelmed by too much information whether it's in words or pictures here's sometimes if your pictures are complex and they don't highlight what you want the kids to see they can be very distracting and and kids don't see but we often pick resources that are very cluttered or full of cartoons or complex diagrams. So that's one example. Another is The the research suggests that we learn best through efficient practice and we need practice all the research on expertise. And this isn't just about jump mouth or me. This is well established beyond my experience or my opinions. We can't we can't become come experts without practice but the practice has to be efficient. So what does that mean. Well for example. If you want to learn chess you might think well. Just play chess over and over again because that's the goal. That's what I want to get to but it turns out that's not a great way to learn. It's better to start with mini games with a few pieces that have been well designed to draw your attention. Say to a pattern intern or the weakness of a position and if kids are directed and play those games it's not like they're learning and a roadway. They're struggling they're solving problems. But they're within a zone own that they can handle and work efficiently and they eventually developed mental representations where they can look at a positions. I don't that's I'm not even going to try that so they're they become much more efficient thinkers and that's that's the way they become great problems over. It's not by playing the full game and so in math. If you want kids to solve accuweather style problems the standardized test Antero Ontario standardized test or any kind of state or provincial tests. People think well let's start with the test questions and just get the kids to do those but unfortunately if if the learning isn't well scaffold in an efficient than the kids just give up they don't learn efficiently and they never want to see a test problem again. But we've shonen jump that you can scaffold learning so that they become independent problem solver and confident problem solvers at the risk of talking big numbers on the radio. Give me give me an example of this. I mean a simple example. That would help people. People understand what that efficient repetition would quick. I can give example. It might be. It might be a bit of risk because 'cause there's a Lotta people don't understand if you divide six by a half right a lot of people don't understand why you flip the fraction over and multiply and I once asked about seven hundred teachers. Y You could do that in some in yellow because you get the right answer. Sometimes teachers even say we'd like a good explanation so take the number six and then divided I to buy a half. Most people think that means give me half the chocolate bar doesn't mean give me half the chocolate. She had six pieces of chocolate. Let's say and and you divide by half if you had six pieces piece of chocolate and you divide it by two one interpretation of that is may groups of size to give everybody to pieces and if you had six. I hope you can see everyone who get you can. Divide it among three people because you've got two pieces pieces. I hope that's okay. I know I know you're phobic math. Oh no no. Because you're teaching okay. Okay now what if it was six divided by one. That's kind of strange thing to do. But you're dividing it into pieces of size one like so you'd have six pieces you could give away so if it's six survived by a half you could actually break every piece into two. I hope you can see that. Yeah so if you did that for all six pieces can you imagine how many pieces you'd have twelve pieces. Oh my God brilliant so well I will be called brilliant and mathematics written down so imagine how proud you feel if you're in a class of kids and you feel you feel you can't do math and suddenly you're allowed to answer questions like that and then I could challenge. I say what if you divide by third. How many pieces could you cut every piece into eighteen? Oh my God you jumped right to the answer I was vows just expecting three key cut each eighteen. You'd have eighteen pieces and then we then the other thing is the psychology of learning is critical. So if you were one of my students I'd say now I'm going to really challenge you. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa give you a question. I can't even draw. What if it was six divided by one hundred? How many how many pieces would you have his six hundred exactly? Yeah because yeah because there's a hundred pieces in each. Yeah and that's why you flip the bottom multiplied. Now look how quickly that happened and a lot of people integrate seven eight and they never come out understanding. Why you'd flip? If I had an hour I could teach you in full depth in all different situations and so on so why are kids arriving being in high school with any understanding of something. That's absolutely trivial. That's that's the question. That sense of anxiety is a real thing for people that sense of anxiety around math and it's not just not understanding. It's that the idea of looking at some of the problems that are in this book would make them physically sick. That's why I was afraid even to to do that with you. Because it's much easier if I can draw it. And the exile shuts down the brain. So if you get nervous for for a second you can't think anymore so I'm glad juice survive that exercise but you know. Imagine if you're working with a kid and you can actually draw it and you can lead them. Gradually you know a lot of people. Think if you lead in manageable chunks or steps like that then it's wrote it's not wrote that's where the brain works most efficiently. We can only handle one or two variations at a time. I and the research is very clear on that if I if I if I jumped ahead to now what if the nominee. The top of the fraction isn't one anymore if it's too I could've overwhelmed you Veasley and made you anxious and so that's the key is keeping the student in zone that they can be confident and think. Why isn't that being taught in schools? Why is it that that often? Whether it's great three or later grades that students will feel that anxiety feel overwhelmed and if they can afford it their parents will figure out some alternate solutions and tutoring to put the child into so that they can get caught up well. I think there's two reasons I think that the science of learning is just beginning to make its way into the school system and I think that until recently when when people adopt programs like districts adult programs. They don't have to look at the research behind. I mean jumped math participated in a very large randomized controlled trial in which we showed. That kids can progress more quickly and problem solving because we think that resources should be tested rigorously before they go into the school system and so oh teachers are maps heroes. I don't even know how they survive in the classroom when they're often having to do things that create these hierarchies or gaps so teachers need access us to this research and evidence based resources. That's and it will make. Teachers lives much more easily. What happens is easier? What happens if if people aren't learning and they a outsource some of that education to the tutoring industry? Do you worry about that. Yeah I worry. Deeply by. The tutoring is a booming industry and I think it's masking problems. There's less impetus in the school system to adopt evidence based methods because of the tutoring industry. And also it's very inequitable in the whole theme of my book is about equity that we can easily establish you know intellectual equity if we really taught kids according to their full potential what is intellectual intellectual equity well. It's always been a mystery to me why our society with all our wealth knowledge has had so much trouble eradicating material poverty and I argue in the book that one of the reasons. We've missed a deep root cause which I call intellectual inequality to give you an example. We did a case study in a private school. Once where when we tested the the kids coming great five there was a three grade level difference between the top and the bottom and the average markers in the fifty four percent on these tests senator as tests when the teacher tried to equalize. The classroom made all the kids feel. They could succeed. Made them feel equal and this report in The New York Times a year later the lowest mark was in the ninety fifth percent on the average average in the ninety eighth. So that's what I mean about. Intellectual poverty even private schools. You can see a three grade level difference between top and bottom students as early as grade five we coulda radical in a matter of years as we showed in that case study. Hi I'm Jamie for the last decade I've been a newspaper reporter and lately I'm just finding it hard to keep up with the news as of today. Simple possession of marijuana is no longer illegal it can be hard to make sense of. VESTA gators spent nine hours. Our appearance will matter. I want to change that. At least a little. Join me weekdays at six. Am for front burner at daily podcast from CBC News. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast. The title of your book is why math is the key to a better world. Wh what is what is that better. Will that can come out of people knowing more and understanding more of a mathematics. It's a it's a complicated question but one thing is when you learn math you learn all kinds of things that transferred to every of your life so you learn to think logically you to create arguments to look for hidden presuppositions to see patterns. Make you know make inferences but you also learn about risk and probability you you so we had a financial crisis because people didn't understand what would happen if their mortgage rates went up slightly and we have an environmental crisis because people can't add up the consequences of their actions because we're so afraid of math or numbers so that's one area where we really suffer as a society is is People think it's it's it's not that important if they're numerator it or not. It's not just about handling numbers it's about being able to think deeply and having the confidence in yourself to think deeply even example of A politician Titian who is talking about the jobless rate in the United States. Walk us through that and how head we understood the numbers better we would have people would would have been able to make better choices. Yeah I can't remember these numbers but he. This politician clammed was something like ninety. Five million people were looking for work and the population of the the. US is around three hundred million a little more than that so that would be about a third of the US population and if you look at the working population it would be about a half. So there'd be about maybe two hundred million people of working age and close to one. Hundred million politician is claiming are looking for work. That's about a fifty percent unemployment. And I I you know when I saw those numbers. I thought that can't possibly be be right because I could do an estimate but very few media. Let's call the politician on that that plan it just passed by and that's the tragedy I think within a few weeks most adults could develop the skills they need to be able to think their way through some of those arguments. You say a couple the things about politics and this one is that if people want to run for office they should have knowledge of math. Yeah I mean we'd have a much healthier society. If people could didn't immediately sees on the first explanation of an event if they were trained in probability they'd learned to consider all the possibilities if they had a basic sense of numbers they could recognize mistakes. They want to talk to and more deeply. If people were confident in their problem solving abilities they would actually think deeply about the problems before before they arrived at an opinion. Even you also say that math is the one area of discourse where it's impossible to create fake news that just because as they say the numbers don't lie. Yeah because everything. In math can be reduced to principals. Everyone can agree on. I mean in very high levels of math. Sometimes there's more debate but in the kind of math asked we would use an ordinary life. People could agree very quickly and we'd have much healthier political debates. Believe that I mean given given how nasty the political that tone own of the debate is right now that you think that there would be a healthier debate if people were able to understand the numbers better yes because I think that they would be be much more dispassionate. If they learn to to create arguments in mouth they would realize they have to think through every possibility before they seize on one They would also have more respect for science and you know if if ninety eight percent of the engineers in town said this bridge going to collapse you wouldn't put your kids in a car and drive over it even if two percent. It said it won't collapse. We know that we would respect those engineers and think there's a risk there but with the climate change ninety eight percent of the scientists unearth can say. We're we're at risk and people arguable because two percent say we're not. We don't need to do anything but I guess. Do you worry that you know somebody could manipulate statistics for example that they could lead eight people. The numbers might be right but the way that they're treated the way that they're spun could lead people down a different path. Yes and that's why that can happen. But that's why I think we need to respect scientists scientists more radical claim being made or. There's a claim that's about something's very important to the whole world. You'd WANNA look at bodies of experts. Who actually we know the statistics and trust that they they can give you a clear answer part of that better world that you're also hinting at his comes through the idea of I wonder yeah And what kids have and what we old don't have anymore. What is that sense of wondering why is it so powerful? When I think of boat so the losses we face as society by not educating kids according to their full potential we all know the economic losses and even maybe the risk to our political systems? But I think the deepest loss comes because we don't really keep this alive the sense of wondering curiosity that kids are born with once. I taught this behavioral Savior class of very violent students and taught them how to read binary codes and they went nuts. I thought their little codebreakers and then at the end I didn't magic trick. This connected to the code. They all wanted to come up and do it. And on the third lesson like that. These kids were thought to be. teachable cheered when we came in Jerry when you went into the cheered because they were so excited excited to be solving problems to be meeting challenges in front of their peers. What does that tell you? It breaks my heart. Because I've been seeing this kind of thing for twenty years it tells me there's just inestimable potential and children not only for learning but percents of wondering curiosity that will drive them to ask to say for recess to do to solve more puzzles. We all WanNa meet challenges. Solve Puzzles exercise every part of our brain and we lose that sense of efficacy and curiosity. I see through failure every year. Kids are told. This is an important topic. Your parents think it's important. Your teachers think it's important but you can't learn it. What does that do to people? The kind of sense of learned helplessness. We develop through years of failure You know we think we think kids would be stunted if they couldn't see any beauty Lina mountain or a star but the vast majority of people graduate from high school not being able to see any beauty an invisible structure of the world in the incredibly elegant and beautiful world world. That you can only see through matic's and that's that's a great tragedy for me and kids enjoy doing math as much as sports playing sports or creating art if they're allowed to succeed succeed if they're allowed to succeed exactly. You were in the film goodwill hunting and you had a line and goodwill hunting but you added something to the line and good will hunting. What did what did you say in that film because it speaks to this idea of kids being allowed to succeed? Well the the Raiders of film. Were very generous. They let me say most people never get to see how brilliant they they can be. They don't find teachers who believe in. They get convinced. They're stupid and that's not a criticism of teachers because teachers want to help every child. They need to being able to do that in mathematics. It's a really powerful message for people who are listening and they might have the anxiety around my they worry that they I couldn't learn this or they worry that They couldn't help it could slim. This what would you say to them. I mean where did they start. Well I think read about the research encourage your kids. If your child doesn't understand something you're saying ask is it because I'm not explaining well and teachers can do the same thing like if you assume that every child could learn math then is the problem with the the student or your lesson. Could you actually equalize the classroom. Could you could use scaffold more to get every kid understanding things parents or or teachers start with the assumption that if a child's not learning they can and you have to do something to make that happen. I appreciate appreciate the lesson this morning. I will say I mean in reading. This book is somebody who has had anxiety around mathematics and That was the lowest mark that I ever receives in school. I was wondering whether I would find myself scrambled by some of the things that are in here. But that idea that you if you do gradually can learn as a really powerful John Thank you thank you very much John Madden is the creator of jump. Math and his new book is called all things being equal. Why math is the key to a better world for more C._B._C.? PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

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BEST OF: Farming Trees Not Vegetables - Maintenance, Less Harvesting and Sales - All Less Work Than You Might Think

Farm Small Farm Smart

1:13:45 hr | 1 year ago

BEST OF: Farming Trees Not Vegetables - Maintenance, Less Harvesting and Sales - All Less Work Than You Might Think

"Welcome to farm small farm smart. I'm your host Diego. Dri Ejido today. We're going back in. The archives lives to pull out a previously aired episode. It's the best of episode. Let's jump right into it. I hope you enjoy it green slavery. That's how a lot of livestock in perennial. Farmers and Orchard is looking annual vegetable production a form of green slavery where. You're putting a lot of work every day throughout the season to manage vegetable plants along with harvesting something almost continuously throughout the production season. Making you tied to the land in those crops hence the term green slavery in while that criticism may sound harsh rush. There's a lot of truth to it. Compared to Caddo or trees annual vegetables are fragile disease pass. Excessive heat lack of water can all lead to their demise quickly and they're inherently more fragile than established in adaptable perennials. In additionally being more fragile managing annual vegetables on farm is a lot of work literally long days bending over working in the heat carrying heavy stuff around. It's not always fun. And those are just some of the reasons that the annual vegetable production business is considered a young person's business it may work for you now at thirty but will that same thing be doable. It sixty sixty maybe for some maybe not for a lot of others and if you're in this position managing a market garden and you aren't thinking about out this inherent fragility in your system. Maybe you should be. Because odds are you can't keep it up forever and if you WANNA change inch you need to start before it's too late. One Way to change is by diversifying some of your production into another enterprise. Maybe maybe an enterprise that you could start now in parallel with your market garden without drawing too much effort away from that market garden which is giving your cash flow now if you can establish this other enterprise and you selected strategically it may give you some diversification that will take away work low down the line while adding revenue to the income statement at the same time in further out into the future. That's what my guest today. As defined Kodak of the Miracle Farms is encouraging more vegetable farmers to do to start planning some trees now so that they're established in producing when you or the vegetable farming gets old. Now you may be saying. I barely have enough time to the work that I'm doing now on the farm well well establishing and managing orchard like this might not take up as much time as you think in the slow growth of trees might be on your side Estefan. We'll talk about in this episode. He manages as operation in just fifty days per year. That includes all pruning training irrigation spraying. Clean up the whole lot fifty days per year and he thinks one person could maintain forward a six acres. He's all by themselves overall. This makes it doable. And if you combine it with a market garden it makes your farming enterprise. Less fragile will adding some diversity to your farmers market booth where the CSI box if that sounds intriguing. Stay tuned because Stefan's John's going to bring a lot of information to in this one as he walks through what a typical seasons like in the orchard. Talks about why you want to be a price maker and not a price taker. Sure he talks about the pros and cons of the U Pick model in a lot more. There's a lot in this one in a mowing to bet that will have you looking looking at small scale orchard being in a different way after this episode inserted thinking about how it might be possible for you. Let's jump right into it would stefan SUBCO- EAC talking about the importance of sanitation inside the orchard itself. So sanitation is just a matter of after you've finished harvesting Given role or series of rollers. It's good to go through and pick up all all the apples in the fruit because it could be pears plums. Whatever pick up all the fruit that are on the ground and in that way you really really really reduce the insect pressure for next year? Not this year won't affect this year but it will affect the year after and so last year we left a lot aww fruit on the ground and were paying for it this year. So that's just you know you. Nothing happens by chance. It's not all it's just a big year. Well it's a big year because I didn't do my job right. I always say good farmer has three things one. He knows what to do second he knows when to do it and the third he does is it. So I've got the first two down really well. I know what needs to be done. I know when it needs to be done but I don't always do so. The third makes really the difference between somebody who's a really good farmer and myself. Who's not really that good of a farmer? So that's that's Kinda my definition you know there's key times really essential times and if you're on task if you're farming there is times of the year where that really has to be your priority. You have to get those things done at that time. And if you don't well you're gonNA something's GonNa suffer along the way so it's just it's just basic things that make a difference in how you operate a farm if you think of a calendar year and you had to graph the work load in terms of managing and orchard. Can you kind of walk through the year in terms of where you have a lot to do. And then where there's laws sales and production so I'm thinking you're going to be doing winter. Pruning or training. Maybe have a lull in the spring and income harvest time. You're obviously busy there and then clean up after but can you kind of go through a cycle of a season to talk about the workload and how it varies. have part of it right Definitely our winter attorney. Who Do your dorm season pruning and that's dormant? Meaning your your buds. Haven't come out there. There's no green on the trees. And so that's the time where you really want to get all of your pruning down. Ideally that's doorman season pruning and that stimulates. The tree doesn't reduce the trees vigor. It actually increases increases the trees vigor So that's we start depending on the year but often will just you get you get Nancy. Come January it's like okay. You know what it's a Nice Day at Sunny I'm GonNa go Prune and and so you get some pruning done starring January February it picks up and the big season is really marcher and our goal is to be done pruning the fruit trees by April. First so are buds break and Heart area only around the twenty first of April. That's when we start to get some buds opening up so So it's kind of depends on your area but I like to be done three weeks ahead. Simply because with the permaculture orchard there's more than just the trees trees shrubs there's perennials and so there's other jobs so spring winter is is kind of a way to get out of hibernation Shen in our climate because we when I was in New Zealand news strange. They were saying yeah. But it's you get a break. You have a law you have winter. We don't really have went to plants are. There's virtually leaves on the tree all year and I thought yeah you know. We do have an advantage being in a cold climate because winters time to to like we say in French. Say or or get your resources back at your energy back in and so on have time off but spring is still the busiest time when I say spring. I mean April may is is really our busiest time. Mainly because the esters the trees So that's a time where we'll be doing try to do some I sprays in in in May if it's needed it's also time for some of the traps to go up the time to propagate as many any plans as we can and that's we'll talk about that a little later in terms of you know the some of the biggest lessons but getting the plants plant didn't didn't and multiplying because there's a lot of plants need to go in. That would take us say to the end of May June. We would continue sprays raise. And that's that's really the start of primary bugs season and went when I mean bug season. It's insects in the trees But also just mosquito season so one of the things if somebody doesn't like mosquitoes don't plant the permaculture orchard because this year we were really spared it was incredibly easy. I mean we could sit outside in the evening and and the bugs weren't bad but when it's a bad year sure it's a really bad year we virtually chase you out of the orchard And then July August is actually is really really nice time. That's when we actually do the training you had mentioned we do. We could do some training during pruning but most of our training will be done in July and August just mainly because the trees are very flexible. Lots of sap they bend. Well they don't break as easily and the other thing is most host of the growth for that season is done and so whatever ties you put on a tree the bark will not grow into or around your ties. And that's not a if you did it. In in April or March when your pruning well if you leave it on for two months chances are you're you're tired Tori whatever you attached your branch with to train will have completely grown into the branch and that's not a good thing so it's one of the reasons we tend to do it in in July in August. We also did some dormant pruning this year. I mean sorry summer pruning. We don't usually summer promote our nitrogen. Fixers have grown to be not so large that we actually cut them down by at least the third in in party orchard. We have some of the left to do but that's something that has gradually we left but this year we really have to do it. It's gotten to be too big and we're starting to see that that some of the lower branches are getting two shaded and not producing as much and that's just because the trees are. It's starting to go a little bit more towards a the forest garden an orchard and the gold the difference between Forest Garden and Orchard if you allow me to make that parentheses is is A forest garden. I consider something where you have a canopy. Meaning your trees at the top are pretty well. Touching or close is to touching while an orchard. You really have a complete row or I'll between the trees that is could be grasped asked could be cropped. Could be vegetables. Whatever you WANNA do in that space? But it's got a distinct area airspace between the rows and so to really have the orchard. Run well you want to have like get right to the bottom continuing with the seasonal effect because because we have the membership marketing formula. And if so we don't do the most of the picking its members who depicted the harvest and so a time when most people would be very busy I actually really liked the time when it's harvest because it's payday and so to stand at the end at the end. Have you know interact with people and have them just pay you. That's a nice a nice day so those are not the hard working days like they used to be when we would do Pretty Well oiled harvesting and then it's really really after harvest. It's the chlorine closed up phase. Now we've got a tattoo Lisk of our tasks that need to be done before basically before the snow sets and so we're plugging away at that list. Once we close the water because of risk of frost breaking pipes apes than that really switches to the final the final phases of the season. Anything we get done after that we consider bonus then so that kind of takes exit full circle so that that closing we close a water by November I I know it's hard for you to match in in San Diego closing water water because of ops but usually by that time we have the risk of getting a snow with Noah's okay does really wouldn't trees the pike but it's the cold associated with it and soon as we get snow. We tend to get a much cooler air mass and so if we get minus eight for example we could have the pump damaged. We'll I'll have pipes bursting and so on so that's that's close and after that November is a bonus month anything we get done usually the last last three years and again this year Going on tour in Europe to teach so that's takes us almost Christmas and then Christmas a bit bit of a break and then and then it's gradually more more and more work until really march. It's not a not a big the deal knowing people up in your area that do farming say market veg like a John Martin. How do you think the workload for what you're doing compares to what he's doing do you think you have it easier than him or he? Has It easier than you have a little easier than him vegetables. I want a friend of mine. A Frank Tuten said the vegetables is green slavery. Yeah I thought yeah. It's really true because if you're dealing with an annual system which vegetables is pretty well all annual crops. Everything is to be repeated every year and just compare that with the permaculture orchard where there was a lot of work in the beginning I would say the first five years until till the trees are are producing and so on but after Mr that this year we actually we switch gears in a big way. We didn't take on any interns Sorry to everybody who applied. There was a lot of people looking to have an internship but we really needed to answer one basic question was how much work does it take. And because we've had for the last fifteen years we've had several interns every year. It's hard to judge. How much work it does it take to maintain the system and so this year? That was the main question we want to answer. And so We we went through every task. We normally do to maintain when we distinguish between maintenance and projects projects is what advances you. We WanNa do this to make it better in the future on maintenance is just to be able to continue as we're doing and so we budgeted fifty days of of work for the whole farm not just a permaculture but the whole farm fifty days and we're right on track actually it's It's turning out to fifty days of work in the year. If you contrast that with Zhou Martinez System. It's it's pretty well. Six months of every day Six five five days a week. At least I mean I've not grown vegetables as they do you and so I can't really compare but I have seen enough vegetable farms and especially in the workload and I kinda think. Yeah well my trios of nap really does apply because I can't take a nap and just relaxed so it's it's a different type of work. The more I do it the more I see that while perennials. I can see that you look at the images of Corsica or for Morocco or so on where people have fifty year old planted orchards and sawn and life is really good you're basically just harvesting and there is some maintenance to do but everything is getting better and better and more productive active every year or you have variations year to year but on the uptrend. It's it's really on the uptrend an so perennial L. Systems. There is a lot to say for it I can. I can really vouch for what Mollison had said years ago where the really the biggest danger is being hit by. I fallen fruit. And so that's not a bad way to operate compared to everything being annual annual systems system's reason they're done is they're very productive as well but they require a significant amount of work. That fifty days is that like like a normal workday. Call it nine to five or eight to five. Is that how you're classifying a day. Out of those fifty. A good day for me would be seven seven hours of solid work. I mean I'm I'm approaching. Sixty and and so seven hours is a pretty good day. In fact pruning. I started off with about four hours and I try to work my way up to six hours a day. It's a it can be fairly physical job. But that's you know it's not. It's not ten hours or twelve hour days not at all so for some people like sure. If if I look back twenty five years ago Loyd say to me I would have been yeah. It's not ten hours. Well I don't go crazy on saying it should be the same for everybody. Know Your Work Capacity Capacity I. I'm sure I can help work some people who are You know fifteen years younger than me but there's also people who definitely outworked me. I'm I'm not very fast on task. People work with Nick Cannon. No I'm I'm not a very fast worker But I get it done and in fact you know. Fifty days is pretty reasonable yet. No into further frame up that metric. How much total land do you classify the farm in besides the orchard in the associated plants around the orchard? What else is covered under that fifty hours? Because I think that's it's pretty remarkable that you can manage all that in that amount of time at this stage I guess you you'd look at it in zoning system I mean I mean we have zone five part of it which is nowhere could all. We just don't do anything. Those are some of the hedgerows. We add branches to do the more. We do minimum amount in that. But that's pretty well wildlife here. Is We have zoned. for which is I would consider. There are old orchard. We have about three hundred trees left in the old orchard and are gradually being cut down every year so that takes shakes not as not very much time. That's where we have the sheep and then we'd have I guess a more micheals zone to zone three Where the permaculture orchard is not requires not daily but certainly seasonally intense periods We have zone. One which is a kind of vegetable area allotted. But we haven't done any vegetable. Very little vegetables was last two years. That's pretty well it. I mean it's What did I put down for? Our our maintenance time is allotted to the pruning repairs maintaining gear Gatien system spraying trapping insects harvesting for juice and final cleanup. Coming up. So that's kind of that's pretty well so given that if it was just you. How much do you think you could comfortably maintain if you had all year yourself to just work on and maintain like what I'm getting at is what's a realistic bowl park expectation of how big of an orchard somebody could manage as a unit of one good question? I'd say I would say well again. Questioning their their capacity to work but one person could maintain between I guess four four to six seven acres depends on how they How they market? If you take away much of the harvest. Yeah you could go in the upper end of that depends on how you're quipped. There's certain things that even if you're quip you still have to do by hand and that's really one of my biggest lessons is plant plant less but plant everything that needs to be planted in it. Meaning the the layers were talking in a permaculture orchard. It's not outlined the monoculture orchard where you've had trees and in some grasp below we have added layers we have a shrub layer we have a perennial plant layer we have a vine layer so I would say rather than trying like I did to plant all the trees out hoping to come back and put the shrubs in so my four phases originally was plant the trees and plant the shrubs plant the perennials perennials and vines and last stage is put in all the infrastructure for your allies. I would say rather than try to put in say two acres put in half an Acre but put everything everything in within one year I think the one year criteria would be important and what it'll do is twofold. It will allow you to have a lot of mother plants. That's from which you could derive plant material to further increase. And I certainly recommend that you add in the in the show notes Bill Mawson's awesome phases of abundance because that is absolutely a brilliant brilliant insight into what you'll go through. You will go through exactly that you'll have a phase where you will need an abundance of propagation material and until you reach that phase you really won't be able to expand very very rapidly once you have all the material you want like today I before I went to bring the juice actually sold a bunch of Yupik trees. I I thought selling you pick trees is really a nice thing. I would definitely do it again. What do I mean by you? Pick trees we have some trees. We have a plum that soccer's workers but it suckers on its own root meaning. It's not a grafted tree. It is the Mount Royal Plum and it suckers a little so it's a great one to use as a plum tree because it does not produce a lot of suckers if we get three suckers per tree That's that's quite a lot. What while we've had other plum trees that we torn out because if they didn't produce twenty suckers it's like they must be dying? Some of them would produce. You'd swear where fifty suckers from one tree. That's no longer an advantage. That's really a headache. And so we toured trees up because it's just there. It's too annoying to try. I to maintain and keep out suckers so these trees that would sucker out royal plums I said you know we have lots of tours this year and some people saw these trees and they said would you sell trees as I sell dis And I'm I make him at a better price ace if you picked them so it's I always rather share the work and say rather than me having to dig up twenty or thirty trees WANNA come pick. 'em Up yourself than great. You know I'll give you a break on the price and and you can help yourself to them. And so that's what we that's what we did today in the and so that's a that's a nice way to reduce the workload thinking of that in that four to seven Acre range. This answer will obviously depend on what you sell is a final final product and how you market it into whom but is that big enough to be a viable business running in orchard of that size or did you need to go bigger. which would then mean? You're going to have to bring in help to grow Bayer. We'd really depend it depends on how you it marketed. If you're trying to sell a commodity forget it like you're going to have to compete with hundred acres and hundreds of acres orchards that selling a commodity. Meaning you have to. You're selling an apple. It's not branded. It's not somebody recognizing us from your farm you have to put wooded in stores where it's sold as a gala apple. Well Okay Gal. If if it's good they'll tell you at least oh it's gala from South Africa or or from wherever it's from otherwise there's no there's no branding so you're only advantage is on price and so it's look at any commodity auditing that sold on price and it's brutal way to to grow and that's where you have to go bigger go home because you're selling a commodity if you sell it where you are the price maker rather than a price taker then Then it could be very interesting. We're selling our plums this year for four dollars a pound then and we completely sold out like we the last people who came into day that we have plums. I restore apologetic has said we have nothing really nothing left than all. Well I just wanted to make some jam so well if you WANNA make jam. You're going to be washing them anyway. I said the there is plums underneath a few trees that were absolutely right because when you pick some of the plums the right ones just just about fall if you touch them so I said if you want and they were really happy to pick up the plums on the ground so it's a double double plus one day. Pick up fruit that AH I would have to pick up otherwise and and they pay me for it. How you market? It will make a difference if you look at just us doing a crop For example your apples growing fruit trees. You're not getting full value out out of your whole system because just selling fruit is only one and we really need to look at it in a holistic sense. What are the products the land and so my background being quite steeped in education For me an important component still remains the educational national aspects. So whether it's the film whether it's the tours whether it's the courses speaking that's I look at that is all part of the orcher yield and so for me depending on the year some years. It's it's really important some years it's Nice So that I still look at. It's because of the orchard that is possible and the other thing when I think you have to qualify fi whether you can make a living For years I lived on probably fifteen thousand and the lived dwell on fifteen thousand a year and so some people kind of gas when they on the world. Can you live on fifteen thousand dollars for a family. Well you're not a spending. Some people need eighty thousand and they still basically scratch by so that right you have to qualify in terms of what is making a living and so how much you need is never the same as how much you would want and so can you make living absolutely you can make a good living With not many acres and I think that's the big appeal why I keep going back back to Europe because in Europe. It's not go big. I mean there are some bigger farms but there are a lot of very small farms. I'm talking one. NACRE two acres four acres. There's loads of places where that is a field that is a farm and so they're looking. How can they maximize semis? The value coming off of such a small area. They have a huge advantage. Most areas in Europe quite densely populated so the model that I propose with the permaculture orchard and and Membership Marketing. I drool when I go to Europe. I see my God. You know you're on the edge. There's almost always an edge of town and most people in these small fields. They are on the edge of town. I say you have enough. People here to support several little farms and it's just a matter of of getting exposed to they're really not used to using a Yupik model there and so it's it's very interesting too few people who had toyed with a told me some incredible dare just doing really well. When they adopt that model run in that you pick motto? Can you think of any cons of doing it. Now that you've done it for a while or something and you don't like or one part of it that just doesn't work very well and maybe I can link to that presentation in terms of membership marketing. But can you kind of run through the basics tool of what that model actually looks like. You don't have to get to in depth given that we can link to that The basic parts of a membership marketing. His you want to have people join first of all they join for the year for the right to be able to pick a product from your farm and then pay you for that product on top of paying a membership. People like to join a club and wanted to biggest the pros of of a membership. Marketing model is the fact that that you could limit the number of members this year we limited. We kept it at seventy five because we didn't have a lot of tree fruit and so that was a way to balance supply and demand. What I would never do is just an open? You pick where you advertise here were open. It could be a nightmare air in our area. We have some farms that they'll have a few big weekend and they might have two thousand people on a weekend to me. That's not A No stress situation. I mean that's although it seemed great that two thousand people come. Where do you park all those cars? We're you need a whole staff half of people to manage just that operation and for some people in works For us I prefer not having that kind of the system the cons of a Yupik model people often say that well if you have you picked people don't know how to pick and they break branches true. They can break branches but again a membership marketing. Because you can expect the a good percentage of people will join and then will return as members the next year so as you go on you find that there is more and more people who know and get with the program if you like Mike and that's a big advantage. If I I saw this year where you have two cars pull in almost at the same time so you have one one of the people who is a longtime member and somebody who had their first year and so you see that as they come in I can I know and I greet the person. Listen who's a longtime member then. I don't recognize who the new member is because sometimes they just sign up online and then I asked the person who knows the routine to kind of take them under their wing and they do it with great pleasure. It's like Oh yeah I know exactly how this works and I'll show show you how to pick this fruit and then you get this really great transfer of knowledge from basically. It's not even me showing them. It's now the the previous members the experienced members teaching new people and so one of the things with a membership system. Is You get a core and growing core of people who know how to do. Things are who know when is the fruit ripe potty and know how to pick this or that an especially in in kind of our model where there's always at least five crops to be harvested at any one time And so there is a little bit of a learning curve. But it's not that bad and once you show someone once or at most twice Hotta pick a fruit and they'll be able to pick it as well as if you've spent two days picking and you learn the basics so it's not that hard and some of the big negatives that people point out as as kind of the cons of of the Yupik model really can be mitigated negated. I would say. Don't even touch the idea of a u pick if you don't like dealing with people that's really the most important thing if you can't you know if you don't if you're not glad to see people coming to your farm then don't do that. It's Ben Maybe you WanNa do the U Pick it all yourself and you take it to market and you clean it and you pack Unless you've done it you may not realize how much work is involved if people take it right from the tree and they select which one they want and they'll do any cleaning and they'll do the packaging that saves you a huge amount. I when I was teaching fruit production you look at the budgets of almost every fruit production and the average is forty percent of the cost cost of production is harvest and packaging. That's a huge. That's a huge percentage of the dollar. You know out of each dollar forty percent percent of it. Forty cents of each dollar is is the cost of it is from picking and packaging and packaging is non negligible give you an example uh-huh apples in our area normally sell for around ten dollars a box grade to grade one apples but that box people don't realize cost dollar twenty five. It's a cardboard boxes standard unit. bushel box it's a dollar twenty five just for the box and you can buy the whole box of apples for ten dollars wholesale. These are all hidden things that you learn as you go. You can pass those on to people. Then either you can give them a good price break or you can get a higher percentage of profit or you could split the difference however you like to do. We like to actually have full price ice. But when we're swamped and something is has become a problem. Because there's too much of it then we just give it away free. That's I think I I learned. That's from Joel. Salatin he says don't cut your prices give stuff away for free. Can you give me an example of that. Apple's this year we had we. We have something free every open day so every time we have a day open for members. There's something free it could be herbs. It could be a green vegetables a perennial vegetables. It could be fruit. We had We wanted to kind of help. People learned value of black currants this year so we had free black currants. It's at the same time we have goose berry and red currents and so I was surprised I thought because the black currants were free people would pick more of them him but in fact when they came and they don't care yeah black currants you know it takes some getting used to you. Don't eat it fresh the when they tried to gooseberries there and oh man this is so oh good and we just got cleaned out. That's my favorite fruit. I was kind of disappointed because here I was you know. I like to walk around and just graze on some of the fruit and and I had no more gooseberries. It was gone. I mean they took everything and I was Kinda like well. That wasn't the idea of free but it does help people It's you know if they've never been exposed to. It's no risk. Look try it. It costs you nothing and once you have at chances. Are you look for recipes in a way to to make ah value to it and so it is and you know that in the years after people will requested more or look forward to picking it more so it's Kinda like people called and stores a loss leader but it's there's no loss to it at all in fact it really just allows you to sell a lot more anything anything else you have at the same time looking in this memory model and hearing you talk about it makes a lot of sense. I see the advantage to it. How would you suggest somebody starts arts introducing this idea to a marketplace? You've obviously had a lot of customers. Come through this model would has worked for you in terms of explaining how the program works. Are there certain features of it that you think appeal more to customers than others. Have you drop stuff out of the marketing. Like how do you get this idea out there. Because it's the normal Yupik show up pick whatever you want model. That's relatively accepted. I think that's kind of the norm. This is a hybrid. I bridge model. That and I could see some people looking at that. How's it work? Why would I want to do this with your answer to that? Well it's got some interesting points. One the ability to say no is very powerful. If I tell you had at least one hundred calls this year for people who who says oh I about your farm. Can we come pick Saturday. I said are you a member. No I'm sorry. It's the membership only. But I would recommend if you'd like to have information and I said even if you wanted to said we're full for members this year but I would recommend you go on the website miracle dot farm and just put your name in under the mailing list will explain to you how it works and you can join join up then this once. It's going I understand your question. It's how would you kind of get going and you're right. That's kind of the the trickier part. But but let me give you a good example how you would phase that in. I really recommend especially in in France. It's I'm teaching a course in Belgium in three three weeks on it's a one day thing for people who do vegetables who want the integrate fruit into their baskets so if you have a CSA in your producing fruit but you have enough land that you could add a few rows of fruit trees will what happens if you have a CSI. You have have basically a membership marketing model. Although it's not a membership you pick because it's you who actually picks in CSA eh but there is formats where some people Or you could do a share. Anyway if you're ready selling through select group your your product in the case of vegetables that's one of your easiest ways to transition fruit because one you can you. You can inform people year-by-year on the progress of the Orchard and next year we should have the first of this and the first of that and then you would Basically allow them to either you or you pick can and put it in the basket but that membership to get it going. It can be tricky. I suggest just start with everybody. You know people will be polite often and go okay. You know all encourage you for the first year and you'll get a few of your friends and family who will decide yeah or some would say. Why should I do that? Your family why should I pay a So you have to establish the boundaries early on as to whether you're gonNA make exceptions or not but start with people you know if you're in doing any other I mean no matter what you do you're still coming in contact with people And especially like I say. If you're looking at this you better already be be interested in being more of a people person if all you want to do his escape to your farm and just do your farm work then. Don't even consider this this as a way to do it because by your very nature. You're you're trying to separate yourself from other people and that's fine. Some people are like that and some Mar.. Not if you are a little bit gregarious and you you want half people get around you and so on Then that's worthwhile wile way to get going so start with your friends. Start with everybody you've got on your contacts And certainly because it's not a common model you could get free publicity quite well this year. We had the major English daily newspaper in Montreal. which is we're still looking at a million and a half people The English daily did a full feature on the farm. And that's something I've been kind kind of looking to get for awhile and anyway you have to. You doesn't just happen. You have to work at it from a little bit. You have to entice them with a few hugh possible angles to a story and so on but the idea of a membership marketing and so I think in us you have costco. People understand the quickly when we say we're trying to do a costco in farming. Oh okay so I have to pin membership young and then you come in and you buy Yup. Okay Yeah I get it and so you want to try to compare it with something and and that helps just to fill in some of the details for people who might be a little loss. They pay for the membership that just gets them access then they pay for what they buy now that they have access. You're right it's a sixty dollar a year membership and N that we include a twenty dollar coupon. So you're I it's the coupon is just for you. Pick if there's stuff in the kiosk it's not included lewd if it's meats it's not included it strictly things that you pick because it's no work for us to add that but it really basically ugly covers if somebody wants to come the first time in its early in the year and they buy a bit of this in a bit of that will you know twenty dollars will more than cover pretty well what they'll kick and then they can come in and other time and some people only come once a year so it'll it'll be part of their fruit basket or fruit picking. Yes so it's a it's a yearly and then that some people don't even really buy anything all they want is a place to come to the country and that's that's fine. I mean we can have people pay their membership and just have a nice place to come top a picnic lunch on a few days a year. You don't have to do this but if somebody new is going to pitch the idea like they can explain the membership. It's like Costco for you. Do you think it's been the experience that sells is is it the exclusivity that sells is it. The quality of the product that sells is it. The variety of stuff you have on the farm that sells. It's probably all all the above but I'm trying to think of is there one vector into the people who are more receptive of this that seems to resonate more than others. It is so all of those things. And because no people are not the same some people it's the exclusivity they liked the idea that I'm part of Miracle Farms and I'm a member and they'll come and they. Oh I got my membership card so some people that's would resonates for them others. They Dave looked up and they've done the research and they're looking for some place that is not gonna be conventional and in the fact that we're not even organic. We're not certified organic because to me. We don't need that. We were beyond the fact of organic because organic certification Asian. I find is a great system when you are selling to a third party. You're not selling direct to your public. And so people people want to be assured that the what they're picking or what they're buying has a level of quality to it and there is a need for it but but I'm saying if you're doing the direct selling like I tell people I said look you know when I was organic for five years We would have inspector come once in the year ear. I said now I probably have between one and two thousand inspectors a year which is better. Do you think look you have number of people coming. And that's where the advantage of not just open days tours and anything else that's going on at the farm that still people walking around I mean. They're they're they're they're seeing what's going on. There's no pulling. We're not looking to pull anything hidden behind the door or anything like that. So people come they see e and for some that's with resonates day one and in fact. Sometimes I look at what picked and I think you really want you know you really don't want this fruit because this one I can tell you got a worm in it. No it's all right I'll use a knife you know. And so there's that aspect as well some people who had resonates is the experience of being able to go with. That's not just restricted to our farm. But the idea of going as a family and I'll give of your great example. I had somebody. We started off with membership in the very early years and we quickly changed the way from it because as we couldn't get enough members because mainly we just only had one product was apples and one of the first things we learned was people with come pick. There wasn't go okay. That's great now. What else do you have Have this other kind of apple. I got a box of apples. I'm good and I realized. Wow if people made the effort to come and you don't have variety like in a store. That's what I call at the grocery store concept you need to have the variety. They've made the effort they've have come out is again to be worth their while to come out again and so you have to give them a full selection of what can be grown in that time Vir and then so these people had come years ago as members and then I saw their kids who were little kids is when when they first started they came and they said Yeah. I can remember when we're kicking so having that kind of transition is really nice. Get off on one more story. We had a family with little kids coming and picking for a couple years and then in the fall they came back. What can the MOM says? Yeah my My little girl went to school and they went apple picking which just kind of a typical thing people do as this time of the fall. Time around here and often schools take the kids out the classes out to go apple. Picking talking and little girl comes back home and she's mummy rent apple picking but all the trees were just just apple trees and she the way she said it was like it was just wrong and I thought wow that is that is is mission accomplished when a little kid associates an orchard being normally with all kinds of diversity of tree fruit small fruit herbs and vegetables. That's to them. What an orchard should be and when she saw just apple trees? It wasn't right it was like weird and so I thought well. It'll take a generation before people change the image they have when you say Orchard Word You know depending which part of the country you're from you will associated with being whether it's a Cherry Orchard Repeat Orchard or an Apple Orchard but you're thinking of that monoculture orchard does that's what we've seen in our whole lifespan. Growing up and part of mission is really to get us away from that image so when we say an orchard we will think of what people thought of one hundred fifty years ago which was normal for an orchard to be mixed right from the start. One one thing I think is interesting. Is this idea of having veg producers. Start mixing in fruits thinking of somebody like a John Martin in this whole vary depending on a person's work capacity if a market grower wanted to start adding fruit trees and in permaculture type Orchard Richard into their system. How much work do you think is required between say years zero in your five when they start producing? Obviously there's GonNa be a big initial workload required to get the plants in the ground but assuming they're in the ground at that point. How much works required just ongoing maintenance maintenance until their fruiting what I'm thinking is would it be hard for somebody who's doing a market garden to put out some extra effort part to get a system like this underway or you know how how the hell they could go about managing that if you get where I'm coming from? Yeah well. That's a very very good question diego anytime. You're looking of adding an enterprise and I learned from a guy who had five enterprises on five acres and he said you you always WanNa look at your peaks he said look at your peak for the productions you have and look at the peak of the new enterprise than you production you're thinking of adding and he says just make sure that that peak is not at the same time as some other PE- because every production you're growing their peak periods periods where you go you know what we're maxed. We can't do more at this time. So for a veg producer. I could think nice time would be to add a permaculture orchard rose where you're doing a fall planting because you can we can plant in our area here November in fact we even implanted part of permaculture December. You're not doing any vegetables than I mean your season is done. Usually you'll have frost and then you'll have a couple weeks and then you're getting your last things out by about this time. We're not even digging trees usually yet at this time so you could establish publish it after your season which is still something to say because usually by the time you're done if you're vegetable grower when you're done you're season you're done on you want rink. So there is that element I would say. Combine it with Perhaps your your market. Who are you selling to offer it to them to say? Look I'll I'll trade you a two year membership if you come and give us a hand for X. number of days to get yet established as permaculture orchard and that way you you benefit from their fresh. They're coming in. It's a nice time of year to work outside. It's cool you can put that again and I would say really the way I do it with the plastic. I would never do it again the way I did it not that I wouldn't use plastic but I would not do two sheets of plastic so we now we want to do in the next blocks. We want a mulch layer to come in and put down the drip irrigation and the MULCH. which is the plastic mulch? All in one pass and afterwards plant in it so perennial vegetable growers. A lot of them use some form of classic culture and so that's not something that's four into how they operate so I would say they can have that either done or they can do it themselves where they come in and they put a few hugh rose in a plastic mulch with drip and then when the time is right in November let's say December then they come in an and they get a few blitz days where they've plant everything out and so once they've put that in and the key is getting all your planting in They're really looking at two to three years of not a whole lot to do If the watering has done the trees are maintained aim. They're just growing. You will have a little bit of training which July and August is not the best time because you're already loaded with work in July and August in terms of harvesting harvesting but that is a time that it's not a huge workload to do and then there will be some pruning which is nice ice for vegetables because they don't do anything really in the winter or at least not Nar 'cause there's snow on the ground so the the complementarity entirety I would say is very nice and as well they'll be able to add to their baskets if they're growing vegetables they're growing a range of vegetables. I don't know what's the Kurtzer Zometa. Would you know how many some of them are quite commonly have fifty different types of vegetables available. Will if you add another are ten products to your basket And some people will come because you have fruit so it really is complementary in that you will get new Oh customers because you have that and so you'll sell more vegetables because you have fruit and you'll sell more fruit because you have vegetables so it is a complimentary thing the workload there is a few intents periods. I would not put one in the spring. Where normally you're overloaded with work in the spring in in vegetable Production I would do fall planting and it could be done again. You know. Plan your your work when you need your plants and probably Grohl roll many of your own plants if possible so that you reduce the cost as well but it's doable. Yeah like that answer for another business related related question. I've had a few people email this in to have you answer this year. How would you advise somebody to handle or be prepared? Paired with the potential variability that comes with fruit production. And you've seen this. You've had banner years like last year. I think you said was a record in year and this year at one six the production that you had last year. How do you handle that? If you're running a business with that much variability in what you're producing in really you don't really have any control over that. At least that's my thought right and to just give you the frame of that. How for us very ability and it's not just us it's really I would almost say eastern North America or at least quite a piece of it? It's IT got set up in two thousand twelve. We had an exceptionally warm spring. I mean he wasn't even spring. It was late winter. We had thirty degrees. which is eighty degrees Fahrenheit in March? Normally I'm pruning on the snow in March and we had really warm days I I was using the pool in March. I mean the the ice have gone up in the morning and I went in the afternoon. It got that warm. It's it got set up then. We had this very early spring. The trees please respond to the ground temperature. Not The air temperature but if the air temperatures warm enough for long enough it warms the soil and so the soil warmed up and we had an early start for bud break and especially for flowering so two thousand twelve tree started to bloom where normally they're blooming The third week of May they were starting to bloom in the first week of May they were a almost a full three weeks ahead of schedule. And that's okay okay. But averages are averages for a reason and so we had one night which was even below average and we had minus eight Celsius Celsius which would be about twenty degrees for one night while twenty degrees. When you're trees are in full? Bloom is a catastrophe. So that set up the pattern that year we lost absolutely all the fruit and it wasn't just US everybody in our whole wide region Lost their whole crop that you're the only people who've had a crop. Were the people who hired a helicopter to fly over their orchards all night and it seems like it's a big cost but if you have one hundred fifty acres of fruit and you're the only one who has fruit. Fruit prices went to almost three times the price and so they really it was well worth it. Having a helicopter fly so plan one would be consider having helicopter but planned to was. We realized we needed to be weatherproof. which is booker? T. Watt Leeann his in his book that I recommend for membership marketing. That is one of his ten commandments. Be weatherproof and for US weatherproof. The proof I didn't think of it as Frost proofing but frost proofing is an important consideration. Because we're not in an ideal orchard site were on Flatland. Ideally John Orchard should be on a sloped Hill then so frost can accumulate in on a spring night. So we've set up. And we're almost finished. The system of overhead sprinkling for the whole Orchard Block and so that is a nice way to counter counter that variability. The other thing you can do to not very as much is prune appropriately in the years you can so two thousand twelve. We have nothing two thousand thirteen. We had a bumper crop because the trees had a one year break so okay they got set up and they produced just a huge amount in two thousand thirteen again. Two thousand fourteen was a nice spring but the trees have produced so much year before they produce pretty well two and a half half times their normal crop and so two thousand fourteen was nothing virtually wasn't even worth harvesting because there was hardly any fruit. The trees I'm talking was a great year for small fruit but not for the tree fruit and then two thousand fifteen last year again record year and this year not. They're not a total disaster but a lot less fruit so we're slowly getting back to kind of an average and there is things we could. I do so next year What happens is remember? I said in the beginning what you do this year. It really affects your next year so next year we expect expect to have again a big year because the trees had a lot less load this year so if they have a big fruit set what we will do is. We'll start to fertilize. We've never fertilized since we put in the orchard and it's one of the things I say you really don't have to fertilize but if you want to maintain and get rid of variability once it's in the you know once you have that Oscillation. How do you dampened oscillation? One way is to fertilize. And what the fertility will do or the added added for Tilleke is it will allow the fruit that are set to grow and mature but it will give the tree sufficient nutrients and fertility city that they will set next year's flower buds so a tree always will allow its energy first and foremost to flowers and fruit. So that's what they'll focus on. They have they'll if they have a fruit on their del omit growing for the years they have to see you'll have virtually no new growth. But they will mature the crop they have so if you have extra nutrients del mature the crop they have and at the time they'll put up reserves for next year. So that's how we hope to dampen it again and this year will be quite judicious in in pruning so that we maintain the minimum number of branches. Not not letting a whole lot of branches go and so that there's going to be less flowers on next spring of because we'll reduce the amount of branches so those are the things you can do to get rid of that oscillation. Once it happens so weather. Proofing is is definitely good because one year you see that You know two thousand twelve or two thousand sixteen and were still having the the kind of the sequel of that one night one night so global warming. I'm not afraid of the warming. It's the cold hits the cold that will that is the problem. Yeah that's interesting. That Butterfly Effect through the system. There Erin I guess that's one other reason to not just have a fruit tree orchard. That has apples only in it. You have other crops in there so that helps buffer out the total yield coming out of the system you're not solely dependent upon one species or CULTIVAR coming coming out of there and I know with fruit trees. It could be stone fruit or apples. You know they could be affected by the coal themselves but you have berry bushes. You have urged you Those other things to help dampen that out to correct animals you know if you add animals to the system. That's an added one. If you add vegetable all production why not you cannot perennial vegetables. You could add some easy to grow annual vegetables You can add other aspects you can have a nursery production You can have a seed production. I mean we're we have so many of our plants are producing. We're just letting the seed fall so often because it's like we don't have a branch that were selling seeds because there's enough for one person to make a living just from the seed production and so you get all these things that start to be available or possible and so then it's just what. How much do you want to harvest touted the whole system and that is true? Look at anybody who's got a garden. I don't think there's ever a year where all your vegetables do equally. Well there's always always gonna be a year where or you know it's a little too went for this or that but let us love you know the same well. It was went. The tomatoes didn't do so well while this year for us it was extremely dry. We had rebound probably below a quarter of our normal rainfall for the whole summer season spring to fall L. and so it was a great year for anything that likes dry but if you didn't have arrogation it's it's even harder. So yes. The variation in crops available is just good insurance. That it's really kinda that putting all your eggs in one basket system you talked about there. You're working on dampening this oscillation weather. Proofing your system given where you're at now with the farm. Where does the future ally are? Are you trying to evolve. Things is it just making things more efficient perfect things. Is there stuff you really want to try and test out. Where are you trying to focus your energy and go with this now? Two things I had declared vision a few years ago. One of the things when I started this permaculture thing was I I wanted division of a thousand thousand thousand fifty which was thousand Hector's which is two thousand two hundred acres By a thousand people in fifty countries and to really have have hindsight to it it would be by twenty twenty. So that's still my kind of overriding goal. And that's what directs the whole educational effort part so so that will still certainly the off seasons. That's what drives the off seasons and for the orchard itself my main goal at because because I've seen this year the Yorkshire itself doesn't require that much work I mean if we had one intern or two interns It really isn't a whole lot. We can add whole lawns to them that if they wanted to. They would earn their their income from one of the whole lawns and so for the production itself. My next goal is is to really scale up how much we can establish abolition. A day. We've got to be able to plant orchards. That are poly cultures diverse at the scale of at least one one acre a day. I means per acre in our system at our spacing or so and it takes about seven thousand plants. So we've got to be able to you. Lay out the infrastructure beforehand and come in and put in seven thousand plants a day and so that's my next area of focus because it's great to help help people who WanNa do on a you know a quarter Acre half half Acre two acre five Acre. Whatever but I'm now getting ready to work where we're looking to get get people going on one hundred two hundred five hundred Acre size operations doing it this way? And so. That's really the next phase if we WANNA hit that two thousand two hundred acres by thousand people. That's good but I think we will quickly pass the two thousand acres But we may not reach that in fifty countries anyway so. That's a little bit of what I'm working on now perfecting it. I think it's pretty plain to me that everybody who learns whether it's from the film the books through the courses that I teach. I expect expect that people will do way better than what I did Because I spent so much time and kind of you know two steps forward one step back because learning how how to do this but I can save people a tremendous amount of time. I know that's pretty plain. It's look you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Start with what I did and apply. Don't try to you know tweak too many things so I'd like to try this way that way. There's a reason why it set up and it works this way and then just do better. I mean people hard way better skill sets than I have to do this. A lot of people bull are just methodical. I'm not methodical. I'm scattered brain so like I said I don't make a good farmer because I have a hard time focusing till something is done long enough often enough so other people will definitely do better than I. I've figure they their income. Income per unit area will be far better than what I do mainly because a lot of places that I've heard have way better locations than I. Yeah I do I mean it's it's not obvious meet attract people from an hour away in fact it's outside the criteria of what makes an ideal location that was just talking about the guy today. Saddam right on the main road in town I got two acres I thought. Wow that's that's great. Great setup like two acres in town on the main road that that has a very high chance of being very successful for a high value added operation. Yeah I love the idea of all that in the way you're out there spreading this knowledge encouraging the work. I think there's a lot of possibility here and I think we just presented the tip of the the Ice Berg today in this episode. I probably could talk for a few more hours on this. But it should at least seed some thoughts and people's heads and give people some ideas to run with and and then at the end of the day like you said in our first podcast that we did you. Just gotTa go out there and start and to be a farmer. You need to know what needs to be done. No when it needs to be done and then do do that. That's that's really the to Amihai. I've seen you know the the farmers who really are smashing it. Most of them are conventional. But I mean you could see that. They're they're above the way above the average those who are doing that they know their T. metrics of I gotta get in this by this date. Ideally I've got a you know they know that key numbers. It's like any business. I'm sure you know the business that you've worked at for a number of years. There's a few a handful of key the things that look. You don't have to get everything right but you have to get those things right. So that's really what it comes down to his knowing what that is and then just smashing just getting it done so a lot of things. I could get bogged down in and I much rather rather say you know what that's not that important to really somebody said you know. It's being good at procrastinating. Which I'm great at procrastinating but I didn't realize how it could could be a positive but procrastinating? The things that don't make much difference is absolutely critical and smashing the things that really are critical. There's a lot of things you think. Oh I gotta do this but how important the eighty twenty. It's it's an eighty percent. You know it doesn't make much difference you know. That's it right there. I'm totally with you. And that's where I see. People Fail A in where I've wasted a lot of time in the past you focus on stuff that doesn't and moved the needle. Yeah but it's not wasted because there is a time it takes to learn what is important fair point fair point. Yeah you know. It's only when you've done and you go. You know what that didn't that didn't move the needle but you didn't know that when before you started no that's a good point that's a that's a great point. Actually this see. I think this is good. Thanks for too much your time here but thanks for doing it and have a safe trip over in Europe and enjoy it thank you. It's my pleasure and keep up up. The good work adds everybody who you know and they mentioned your name. You know it's it's it's great. Yeah I think you're a great model or example. Somebody Pretty. Who's gone from your pretty typical in the sense of somebody who wants to go in a direction and you've already got this? You know established life in one direction. And you're kind of thing. How do I- reorient the whole ship? You know how I turn it around and so people are paying attention. How you're doing things? How do you adjust that? And how do you manage that and all little life lessons along the way which is really thanks for listening to this special best of episode episode of Farm Small Farm Smart. If you WANNA foul along with everything that we're doing here at paper podcast. Check us out on the web at the link below or at paper Pat Dot Co..

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THE PODCAST AS YOU KNOW IT IS DONE - Changes Ahead - Please Listen

Farm Small Farm Smart

09:36 min | 1 year ago

THE PODCAST AS YOU KNOW IT IS DONE - Changes Ahead - Please Listen

"Welcome to farm small farm smart. I'm your host Diego de I e geo today is a special update episode of farm, small farm smart. It's an update because the show is changing. It's expanding some things are going to be done differently right now. It's summer. It's June twenty nine teen. And if you haven't noticed Amman hiatus right now form recording and publishing regular episodes of the podcast, there won't be any new interview, long form episodes until the fall, most likely October timeframe. And while I'm taking the summer off and not creating new podcast content, I'm still creating content. I don't have the summer off a metric putting out a lot of videos on my YouTube channel over the summer featuring a lot of farms. Most of them vegetable farming operations for micro rains. To flowers to lean farming with Ben Hartman. They'll be a lot coming your way via my YouTube channel. So if you wanna see more content in learn more visually check me out on YouTube by searching Diego footer on YouTube, and you'll see a lot of the videos than I'll be putting out between now and October. I hope you enjoy him. In the meantime, one thing that I'm going to continue doing between now, and then and into the future as every Saturday, I'm trying to air a best of episode. I've already been doing this for quite a few weeks. It seems to be pretty popular. I think people are enjoying it but each week. I'm gonna try and find an episode from the past one that I really liked or just one that has an aired in a while. And I'm going to release that so you can hear it again. A lot of people might be listening to it for a second time or third time, some people may be listening to it for the first time one thing I've found doing these podcasts. A lot of people don't go back in the archives if they found the podcast at episode one thirty they've listened from one thirty on but before one thirty it's like it didn't even exist. So the best of segments airing on each Saturday are my attempt to try and get that content exposed to a potentially new audience. And I think if you haven't heard that stuff in a while, you're gonna benefit, and even if you have heard it fairly recently, a lot of this content it helps to hear it one two, three four times to get things to sink in, or you always catch something new every time around. So I hope you enjoy the best of episodes every Saturday. You'll know that their best of episodes because when you look at your podcast player, whether that's whether you have an iphone or an Android in your viewing it through pod bean, or Stitcher Spotify, or whatever every best of episode, I'm tagging it by labeling it best of right at the beginning before the title of the episode so that will help you distinguish between a best of replay episode, and they knew episode a brand new episode will have nothing in front of it. It will just have the title and then the episode number at the end. So look for best of if you wanna see those episodes, if you don't want to hear the best of episodes. We'll just skip any of them the have best of right at the beginning pretty simple. But people get confused with these simple things. So I needed to explain it. Now, if that was simple it gets a little bit more confusing because I'm trying something new starting tomorrow. Every single day of the week or every weekday Monday through Friday. At least that's the plan right now over the summer, I'm going to be publishing what I call the farm five that's about five minutes of content from a previous interview that I've cut out into one individual clip. And I'm gonna publish one of those clips every day. So think of it, it could be inspirational. It could be something that's motivational it could be how to it could be technique. He could be tips. It could be advice. It doesn't matter. It's gonna be all over the board. And it's not just going to be from farmers who are on farm, small farm smart, I've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of farmers over the years of doing podcasting and I've interviewed a lot of business owners some going back into the all the archives every interview that I've ever done, which is probably at this plane. Maybe six hundred total. And I'm pulling nuggets out of all those episodes to publish every weekday. In a five minute, or so, clip some clips might be to some clips might be six I'm kinda shooting for five hence the name farm, five expect the first one to drop tomorrow. And then every week day thereafter, through the fall, depending on how you like it, depending on how I like doing it and producing it I may continue, it when regular full length interview episodes, come back in the fall and just keep the ball rolling. You know that those episodes are short episodes in a few ways. I mean one a lot of podcast players. Now will tell the length of the episode that's an obvious key. But I'm also going to tag, these by titling them f five. That's it after five, and it might be something like F five tips for selling at the farmer's market. And there's just gonna be a title there. If you want to know who speak. Working in that clip. Just look at the description, I'm gonna try and put in the description, this five minute interview was from John Martin forty-eight, this five minute interview was from Ray Tyler, so, that'll be a way to figure out put a name to the voice. So you know what's going on there? I think this is going to be something that you all are going to enjoy. But that's what I think. So when these start airing let me know what you think. Do you like nece? It's been a fair amount of work to get the ball rolling on this new f five program, and I really don't wanna keep doing it. If people aren't benefiting from it. So after you hear a few episodes, please, if you enjoy them if you like the format if it's resonating let me know in the best way to do that is on Instagram. Hit me up. Up at Diego. Footer sent me a DM comment on something in just let me know if you like these F five episodes. You guys are out there grinding in the field right now the days are the longest they're going to be all year right now a lot of work is really hard in the fields. I know how hard the entrepreneurial lifestyle can be so a lot of the quotes, I'm trying to pull the clips are motivational to try and help people push through this time of year. So I really do hope this helps so you'll get this blend of old content. You'll get this distilled wisdom and nice easy to consume five minute or less chunks, and you'll get it coming at you five days a week, which hopefully keeps you encourage in moving forward and pushing hard in doing what you do best. So expect the very first f five farm, five episode to drop tomorrow, and then watch for it every. Day on the podcast every day of the week, Monday through Friday of the podcast going forward, if it's successful which all determined by what you guys, tell me then maybe I'll consider rolling this to seven days a week or, you know, I wouldn't do it on Saturday, because we have the best of, but it'd be the other six days a week will have this. So every day of the week, you can be getting your fix of farm, small farm smart with these little five minute clips, there's no commercialization in them whatsoever. I don't mention paper pot co I don't mention any sort of sponsorship or anything. I want these clips to make a difference in farming in make a difference in your life. A lot of people who have interviewed in the past have given me so much time that this is my way of saying, let's take the knowledge that you gave me in the podcast. And let's recycle it back out to people to get even more out of it. So an honors them I didn't want to clutter that up with any sort of sponsorship type stuff. So they are commercial free, purely meant for enjoyment. Motivation. Encouragement learning you name it. I hope you get a lot out of them. A lot of changes here over the next few months enjoy it. Enjoy the summer work hard, but not too hard, take an occasional break. Enjoy the family. Enjoy friends and do some epic. You know what that's all for this one. Thanks for listening until next time be nice be thankful. And do the work.

YouTube Diego Amman Ben Hartman Stitcher Spotify John Martin Ray Tyler five minute five minutes seven days five days six days
Char helps a family whose child sees spirits.

CharVision

53:48 min | 7 months ago

Char helps a family whose child sees spirits.

"Shar Goalless Shark Medications Inc and Charen. LLC. Do not endorse or offer for any purpose but entertainment the views of any guests or other expert on charge or UPN. New things before they happened from the time I was a child at the age of Eight. I saw spirit at the foot of my bed and didn't know what it was and in my twenties I finally realized I had a special ability that could help others. I have learned that love never dies there is a spirit world that can communicate with us and we all have the gift of intuition. Join me and together, we will explore the possibilities of the unknown some beyond in more. This is sharp vision. hallel everybody it's sunny and Shar and Today is September eighteenth. Twenty. Twenty. And I'm happy that you guys are here and listening and I wanNA, wish a very happy new year to anybody who celebrating Russia's show not. It is the Jewish New Year. And It's very sad because I just found out that Ruth Bader Ginsburg just died. So. God bless her. She hung in there a long time and. She really was a supporter of our government and our country and. Women's rights. So I think we all need to send a bit of a prayer out to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and her family our condolences. So you know if you've read any of my books and stuff, you would know that. When I was younger I saw spirits. So when I was eight years old I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a spirit at the foot of my bed. and. I could see through him he was wearing rags and he he he had a pouch and he took his hand in the pouch. Any went like this in all these gold lights landed on me and. I didn't understand what was going on in two weeks before that our house had been broken into. So I was trying to figure out how this person that I could see through was in my bedroom. And a through the blankets over my head I was scared to death and then I the next morning I said Mommy Mommy the burglar were here again today and she went no honey that's just the Sandman I went. Oh, there's a man. So it's like my parents never said stop making up stories stop lying a they listened. So I was afraid to sleep at night. I I have someone standing in the room with me I fall asleep. At night I ended up going to summer camp for ten years I ended up running the camp because they didn't want to be alone both my sisters were married and out of the house by the time I was eleven so. I spent my whole life conquering my fear. I'm not afraid of spirits anymore not afraid to go S- anymore and I'm not afraid of anything in the spirit world. Be It negative demonic or the most beautiful loving wonderful energy in the world. But you know we live in a physical world we live in an energetic world and there's good and evil in both. So that's why I always say my prayer protection before I work with people and I do my readings and so I have. A family today I guess. Where the young boy sees spirits and can we bring them in Tony? Are you guys there. Hi. Okay. So this is courtney and Barbara and say try sage. Eight how are you? Okay, so I. Understand. That you sometimes see spirits at night is that true yet? And Gino who they are. Who are Will. My great great grandfather PINCI comes. One of my dad's. My Dad's. Grandma came into you. Hug Her. But not seen her a no show one time as John Martin Luther King. Junior. com. I've got goosebumps. That's amazing. What did mark? Martin Luther King Junior say to you. Know he just stand by Gordon waved. He did. In how did you feel when that happened? I feel Kinda. Shocked. And did you know who he was when he when you? When did you study about him in? Yet I studied Why? But he was a very special man. He was somebody who really helps civil rights and And right now when how long ago? Did you see him? It depends. Will. See them will walk at night and so net means it could have been a couple months or couple weeks or a couple days right? Do you know about black lives matter? Yet. And so. Lack lives matter and maybe he was coming in to say that he's supporting the black lives matter. Because he was one of the most important people that we've had in our history and our world in the United. States. So Okay. So your mom is courtney who sitting on your left and your grandma's Barbara who's sitting on your bright and your your grandma Barbara just aged me. Big Time because she's tell us where you used to watch me on L. A. and company Channel Seven in Detroit. Okay. Kept everybody this before Ripa before I was on Kelly I'm the local station in Detroit. And it was called Talian Company and in the early seventies in the early seventies and I would take I would read for people in the audience and I think sometimes I would take phone callers so at so kind of you to be following me all these years, how many is a forty? Some years. Yeah well. I then been blast to do the work I. DO I always say I've never been to work a day in my life because I haven't. Meanwhile. So barbarous one who called me about sage and what I love about sage is name. because. Sage is. Something that we use to as protection like the the the We'd the plan sage when its dried out, it's put in a bundle in the American Indians would always use it to. Protect themselves so that alone tells. That you are protected that you have. Your name protects you. And we named people. And that connects us to our soul. That's why we named people after other people sometimes. Because it keeps our souls going and our spirits connected. So let's get back to you see mark. Martin Luther King comes to visit you. That's amazing and then your GRANDPA. Now, how did you know what was your great grandpa? Books because we go to visit him at the Cemetery Enders Pedro Him next to Sonny, and and it shows how they will waking in culver. So I can know what they look like. It doesn't show in court when a he but. It's how they will quite concede them. In in when you said you saw. Him Hug your dad or mom grandma is is grandma his. His mom gives month. That's amazing. In she would and she was. There too. He. Didn't see her. Way She deceased. Yes. Okay so far okay. Speak up a little bit Barbara. What. Is. Your mother-in-law. Can you can you speak up a little bit how come I can hear them and not you? Oh. Okay you're now. Yeah, that's way better. Okay. She came in sole source they have a baby now. She came right after the baby was born. Because the baby is they're both an. Obviously in their forties and the baby was a miracle baby that they add one again Ryan stow she. She because he has. A middle name that is of my husband's middle name her husband's middle name right gave the children American first names and then finish second. Finland. So so ask why they have the names that relatives had. So she came to visit the baby but she saved my son I and then she went over to the Caribbean wrapped the baby up and put the past her back in his mouth. Wow. That's pretty amazing. When they lived when he was only three. When he was three, he started. Slow. Then yells. So I have a question. Whenever I do my work. I always say a prayer. Do. You pray sage you see A. Not. That much a one time. My Dad did. Time Jesus. and. I think that's a very fine idea. What. Did your daddy say? He said he got this book and he said a poem by forget it. He was reading the Bible. Read a passage from the Bible. Cute Oh. My God you're so cute sage. So what I What then okay. So I always say a prayer when I read for my clients and I told you that and I also say just to make sure there's only good at good spirits around I always say anything in in near around your about me that is not of light go back to where you came from and turn to light if you choose but stay away from me. So can I teach you how to protect yourself? Coach so So In your imagination that you are lit up like the Sun. Lake imagine that you are the son in your illuminating the brightest brightest blinding light. Can you see that around yourself? Can. You imagine that you imagine wait around yourself make it go around like an aura. Making pull. Yes And then put and then when you and then after you have the white light around, you put yourself inside an egg like this. and. The shell of the egg is a mirror. So anything dark or negative coming at you would go back to where it came from. So, I'm not saying there is anything negative. However, your grandma Barbara told me once that you saw something that really wasn't so good. were. On the basement and I saw a guy holding a night. Like this in what did he say to you? You didn't say anything he He was just standing there are win a widow. Like a death trap. Okay That so okay. So did you you have to realize something sage? No one it nothing has power over you unless you give it to them. So the most important thing is to connect to the highest level of goodness and love and guide and Jesus. Input, put yourself in the white light and then put yourself inside the egg. Okay. The Mir deg the reason it's a mirror because if anything ever tries to come at, you like with a knife like that spirit. It. It makes it go away like it. It I wish I knew A. Super Hero character. To. To compare it to that think of a good superhero character that makes things should go away. Robin. Robin. You mean from Bat. Robin. Did He. Won. Coup. Titans. Okay the tight. Pay Then imagine them sending the negative back to where it came from him, blowing up, blowing them up and sending them away. Okay. Actually raising cushy Knows about everything. Okay. Then let's than you think of Raven. and. Then you put the white light in the Mirror Dagon. You send them back to where it came from because the only spirits that are allowed around my friend sage are good spirits. and kind spirits and loving spirits. Okay and. I think you this will sound crazy but. One time I saw the grain refer. You saw the grim reaper. Okay. That's not someone you want to have come in visit. That's not a good idea. So you know like when when you have friends at school, some are Nice and some are not nice. and. So the ones who are not nice. You don't really WANNA be around right? Yeah He. Works forward or do anything he just stand by my door in did that And didn't this Yeah you tell. You tell him. He's not welcome to be your house. And and they're not allowed to come in unless you give them permission. Told you that you tell him to go away. You tell them to go away. They're not welcome there next time that grim reaper decides to come to the if he comes to visit, he might not anymore because I'm GonNa send a special prayer out he doesn't But you put yourself in the white light like in the sun, and then you're GonNa, put yourself inside the Mirror Dag in you're going to send the negative back to where it came from. Okay. Now, this is the other thing. Do you sometimes know things that are going to happen before they happen? Will. Know but. When I knew this was gonNA happen that other house. May Grandma's said. I went outside. There was a hornet. This way saw Garner snakes the must being killed by the Hornets. Gel In, lose getting swagger away and it's whittard away. Sees Juno. Something's going to bad happen to somebody you know this is. A good thing that's going to happen ahead of time like did you know your mommy was going to have another baby? Yes sir. Came repair name new. We're you came prepared. Oh, my God you are so cute i. wish I could argue. So. So did you know if it was going to be a boy or girl? I would. Think, you'll as a girl or a boy would you know which one was beforehand I knew going to be a girl but was actually a boy yet. Wanted a girl you. You wanted a girl but you gotta boy. and Are you going to keep them. Yet. Okay And and I bet you're going to protect him to write. Yet. The restaurant with the spirit. One good one we went to this. Ville way on this fancy restaurant. We were upstairs and other sudden this this A. Working. Guy Key making nowhere. Guy Looked at me. He was swirling around the baby's head and a baby kept taking police and And like go with his hand like this, to try to get the spare off of. The baby was yes. This come to him to and then then. That was kind of afraid that he would come to my house. Okay but he's he's not welcome in your house. So he can't come to your house because you're not gonNA let him in. Right. And you're, GONNA call on Raven. Raven, and you're gonNA think about your Guardian Angels in Your Spirit guides and you're only allow love and goodness and people who care about you and your friends in okay. But. I think. But when but I think sage, you're pretty special. And I feel that. When God you He made you to be special young man that's going to be very helpful to other people in the world. And I think. Just, the fact that somebody like Martin Luther King would come see you. Why you out of all the people in the world that's pretty special. So my thinking is, is that God has a very big plan for you. And but I don't want to scare you 'cause you're still you're still need to do kid things you need to play outside to play soccer you need to play baseball. You need to give a basketball in your yard. No we live in an apartment angers y strangers. There's a lot of strangers in your in your. Oh, so you gotta be careful. Yet use me play Video Games Watch TV or with toys. Okay. So that that idea well because of the pandemic because of covid nineteen, it's probably smart to. Stay in more. It's probably a good idea. Yeah. So. Courtney is going to be possible for you guys to move. Eventually we're trying to at least you're gonNA find a home in move but yeah, from your guys are from. Michigan. You're from where I'm from yes. Other where in. Michigan are you? UTICA. Oh utica you know who was from UTICA Madonna. That's what I heard. That's what I. I don't know her. But Excuse, me I. Have a feeling. You're gonNA find a place. Another home that that you're comfortable in. I'd. Probably do. The good spirits will come. Out At but you have to realize no matter where you are you're always going to be protected sage. No matter what? You need to know this. Okay. And you're the superhero. So whenever anything may not feel right, you put yourself in the white light and then you put the in yourself in the Mirror Dag and guess what else you can do. You can put your brother in his after you always put yourself in the white light and Meer Dyke first. And then you can put your brother in his own white light in mere drag. And then you can put your grandma Barbara in one. And then you can put Courtney Your Mama and one and your Daddy. But when your daddy says, you can call Jesus because if your daddy calls on Jesus then that's a good person to call onto. Okay. But always trust your feelings. If something doesn't feel right? Stay away from it. Something does feel right than listen to it and follow through with it. Okay. In those little. New annisten Guinness sound crazy. Nothing sounds crazy to me I talked to spirits since I was a little boy little girls since I was eight years old elise to. In my dream. I Shaw. Will a couple days ago This dream were I. Was in his wake fastened state. and. I wake shot a spirit haggi Ryan Sore. Circling around me keep charging around me. It wasn't. It's not dean come around me and ran. You know then when he kept running, it's stopped and ran over there and then you're was achieved Braxton of bunch of fossil finders. Then, they turned to bow. Wow. Was it a dream or did you see it in front of you? L. is a dream. Our BURDA we with in Michigan, do you think maybe you have a dinosaur that is one of your protected guides, Spirit guides will I Am she him anymore show damage the been wake. Of A warning message for my dreams to I can choose Spiro dinosaurs. That's But it. It also says to me you probably have a spirit guide. Everybody Has Guardian Angels you call on Your Guardian Angels and spirit guides before you go to sleep. Okay. And you may have one that's like a dinosaur. Yet an Osho? I might think of dish by a one time. I would probably kick my family to go to dinosaur saint up. Figured was but. They can send the car I can go out with probably my dad or a mom, and I can. See if there's a stirs, I can see dinosaurs spiriting real wife, and if they will protect me what that trine and I feel like they will. So you always remember that. Okay. I feel like you are protected. Even more than some of the most famous people in the world. I feel you are extremely protected. But before you go to sleep at night, it's important to pray. So do you pray before you go to bed? Baby. You can start an ask your angels to watch over you protect you and protect your brother in your grandma and your mom and your dad okay. and. You put yourself in the white light and the Mir day and you keep yourself safe. So you can sleep. Peacefully. A right. You see an angel in your crisis at one they broke bright light. Now. What you saw bright lady he had seen it. He told me he had seen. A child in, appearance. And you were talking about why quieter? Yeah Yours. Children Angel, he had a nineteen or nineteen. Twenties squalls and then he saw white. If he was like a bright light around him. Angel. How old is the building you live in? Built in the seventies. Well maybe somebody. Somebody. From the twenties, how did you know it was from the twenties? How did you know rash? and. Maybe had all the houses there then. Nobody. Did you know it was the nineteen twenties and it wasn't one thousand, nine, hundred, ninety. How did you know that? It's because they are look. And I I know while the stuff of history. So I to myself in my mind Jay that will could nineteen twenties outfit. That's amazing. That's amazing. You know what I'm. I believe. I hope I'm not going too far with this but I believe that we live more than one lifetime. And I believe that when we come back on Earth, we have memories of other people we were in other lifetimes because we're reincarnated. So. Do. You remember any of your other lifetimes. Jury member do do you think you lived when it was the nineteen twenties or do you think you live when there were dinosaurs? No. No. Okay. Well. Sometimes. We Bring Memories from other times and we bring abilities and gifts from other times you like history don't you? Yet wait you're what they know about it. And you know I need even the beginning of earth. Or more before before Earth. Like. Just. The galaxy. And you remember that Well because I think you're WanNa God's children. In that you're a special young man and I am so grateful to you for talking to me today and I really feel like I made a new friend today and your whole family and Barbara and Courtney. You guys. This is so brave of you to come on the show and you're amazing and I'm I appreciate it so much and I. Hope I've helped. Thank you don't. Feel because I feel that we made some progress here. Would you like to come back in talk to me again one day Yan. Okay let's do it. Let's do it. Let's let's do it in about six months or something are three to six months. Okay. Okay. Okay thank you all so much for being here. It's it's my honor my pleasure to meet you and sage take good care of yourself in that little brother years. Okay. Initial of. Pain. What? My little bloggers libby braves. Strong. Okay. That is great. The two of you are a good team. Okay. So Don't go away everybody. I'm going to take some callers for readings and God. Bless you guys. Thank you so much for being here. Will your again thank you so much. Bye Bye sage big kiss and hardly. Hey everybody it's sunny and Cher and I am so excited I am over the moon to share with you that I have a new book coming out called the Universe is calling you and there's an amazing forward by rupaul there's an endorsement by Chris Colfer it's about understanding your intuition. It's about protecting yourself from negative energies. It's about standing your essence in your true. Purpose. In your soul's purpose on this earth, you can get it at Barnes and noble dot Com. You can get it at Amazon Dot Com. I would love for you to order the book and let me know what you think of it. Right Review for us if you feel like it. Thanks so much. Hey everybody. It's sunny in Shire and I just wanted to answer a couple of questions. People have been calling the office in texting and emailing. Do I do private sessions will? Yes. I. Do and I love reading for my clients I do phone skype. FACETIME and in person if we're in the same city. I also teach intuition. So if you have an interest in doing that or if you have a if you're interested in getting your family together and you want a group reading do those as well. So just call two, four, eight, nine, zero, nine, two, four, two, seven as for Nicole and I look forward to reading for you. Thanks. Okay, we are back Tony Do I have on mute me or am I. Am I good. You're good. I'm good to go. When you told the other people they had immune is I kept looking for the UNU- button. So. Okay. Who Do we have? I'm GONNA do a reading. Let's do a reading starting with nine oh eight. Nine eight. Okay. I need. Hi. How are you today? Good? How are you? I'm good. Thank you. Did you WANNA reading please. Okay. So just be open about everybody living and deceased. Okay and don't say the name unless I say at first but I am seeing that. I do not have somebody that's a J or am initial close to you. yes. What Ajay or M or both? both the asleep M is the deceased. No yummies living okay is that is that spelled m. a. r., M. I. Am A is it m ar? No but it's M it's. Is it a man? Is it a male? Yes that Matt's. Yes. Yes. You is that your son. That your son. Yes it is my son And where you worried about him recently. Always, kind of. Doing well, but there. Did. They make a change around his work. Yes. Okay I just like he's always going to land on his feet and I feel like you need to tell them that. Okay, great and I and I need to know who the Jay is. Jay of May all female. male is is he spelled J. O.. Or Jen, like John or Joe. John. Who is that? My grandfather yeah. I think he's around you. I feel like he's around you to. Then, you work with his hands at all showing me hands that you work with his hands then. I thought no I never met him and he died when my father was very young. So I don't really know much about what he did. and. But Your Dad is not Ajay or g initial right. Now is there in our be? Or are no. Is there someone else it's an R.. Or R. G.. No. No No. You. Sure. They are female living. And as an are female deceased. One Spelled R. O. Or are you. Yes both of them is, is there a rose or ruth? Yes rose. Get your grandma or. S My mother. Mother and she's deceased. Yes. I knew there was an are. Sorry. It's okay I feel like she wants you to know that she loves you when she watches over you were you close with your mom? Yes very much so and did you take care of her when she was older? To a degree yes. She I feel like she's saying that you were nurturing or that you took care of her. And I feel like she comes to visit you. Have you had a vivid dream about your mom. Yeah I always feel like she's around. While she's he is somebody that keeps an eye on new watches over you. For sure. Great. Thank you. You're welcome. Are Are you are you changing something in your home? I. Hope So. You, want to moon. Yes She's saying you need to be patient. But do you want To state. to another area. Another area. I feel like you're going to move, but you need to be patient. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. and. Right, now, finances are okay. She saying you worry about them a lot. But there. And in time able to. An. WHO's William. Or Bill. Nobody that I can think of in the family nobody. Okay. May there's not a last name? Williams though, right. Maybe maybe for the next caller. Okay. Thank you so much for calling I. Love that rank you Murray. Much. I Love Rosanna. Thank you. The truth is, is that we're all gonna be together on the other side one day. Right. You know so. We know she's in a good game now. You know she's in a good neighbourhood not that you're going anywhere. You're not, but she'll always be near you in with you. Yes thank you very much. You're welcome. Be Well, stop worrying about mad you to. Going to land on his feet. Okay. Thank you. Take care. You're. Welcome. All right. We have a see. Let's do a seven seven three. Seven seven three. Hello Hi. Shaar. I, how are you? I'm okay. How are you? I'm well, thank you. So. Well, you don't have the William or bill I don't think it's for you do you. I have a name that similar to that is that Wilbur or W I L. No it's it's a Greek name but his nickname was bill in English. His nickname was bill who is that That's my husband's grandfather. Spirits around. Oh that's good. Yeah inhoose George. Doors Sore Do you have a George. Look I don't think we have a George. Or J.. J. Georgia Joe Aja. Jim. J.. I have. Jay, on my side, but it's email is j. with an ninette. Yes like a John or Johann or Jean. Or Janet Janet. Is that your mom, your grandma who's out your aunt ZAP him. My mom my mom Janet's here because I was hearing a just on. Oh great I feel like Janet's year. Jay with the end. And feel like. Who'd was there a health scare? Did somebody have a health scare? Well. Yeah. But that's that's how she it was a health I mean, she died from it. You know yet did she have cancer or? No okay. I don't know how she died, but all I know is that she She I think whatever the hell scare was. I just feel like it helped her to move onto the other side to let go of the earthly sings. To move on. Hussein is nearing an eight N N or Anna or middle name man or. I have I have an aunt and and I have an aunt rea and is an but they're living there. Okay. Is One of having health issues. Not Got I'm wearing. They related to your mom was it your mom's sister? Low well, actually my dad's side of the family. Okay and also issue another Marie or Mary, or Margaret Or. I have to Margaret's The other side. Are Deceased. Yes. Yeah I. Feel like near here and I also feel like whoever the a n n needs to watch something with. I don't know if it's Circulation on or something with health. It's okay. It's controllable whatever it is. Okay. It's controllable in markets. Here's at your grandma, your aunt who's at. one is my grandmother and my godmother. Yeah. They're both here and they watch over you. Especially, your guide, what Africa, close to your godmother. Yes Yeah I feel like she's very connected with you and watches over you. Do they have any advisor anything for us, 'cause it's been really hard lately. Is. It been hard about money. While there's something related to money that's been an ongoing waisman just a lot of stress legal. It's like, yeah, it's regarding you know a hospital bill, an insurance and stuff. Yeah. I I feel like you don't you can. Are you getting a lawyer to try to get you to not pay all of it. No I don't have one. I don't even know where to find one. Feel like you can find somebody that can help. You not have to pay the whole thing was this was this from Janet? Yes. Just feel like you need to find a company or an attorney. That can help you. Not has to do you ever hear those commercials where you don't have to pay the whole credit card we can talk them down or whatever feel like there's somebody who can. Help. You. Make too complicated because it. It's regarding another country. Oh You mean where she was. Yeah Janet was. I don't know. I just feel like there's somebody that can help you cut down the bill or not have to pay as much. Where we're you have to look into the She was in England I was thinking England. Yeah I think she would. Maybe you need to find an attorney from there. Okay I'll I'll see a look into it, I. I don't know where to turn, but I will see what I can find out. Just you know what just keep opening the doors you'll find you'll open one. Okay. Thank you. Yeah I'm so sorry that you have to go through this and I think she feels really bad that you have to go through this. I've been kind of yeah. I. I have some negative feelings about it. 'cause if it happened in this country, it would've all been covered by Medicare and insurance you know. But I I just feel like you can find a lawyer that can help you so try that. I will thank you so much. Feel. As loss in scared. Yeah it's it's heavy. You Know Martin with heavy it's a hard one. Don't they have some kind of health free health something in England. Yeah but they don't. They don't cover you unless you live there. So what she was visiting. Yeah. You can figure this out. You need you need maybe need a law for many as people here in there. Okay figuring. Cuma stop letting your fears control. You gotta like know that there's an answer here and be positive and just go rhino. Okay Okay I get you. Mad and afraid and everything else but we gotta fix this. Thank you so much you take good care. We have time for one more. That's tough. Oh, here we go. That's see. Go from a three one five. Three one. I her. Sunny is looking fabulous. My name is Fran. Arden. My name is Fran I Fran is so nice to me to. Pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you. So friend who around you is Mary or Margaret or? MARGERY I. Yes I do have a sister Mary you. Yes. I do yeah in she's living though right She is absolutely living. Yes you close with her. Very, very very. I, feel I feel your connected, but do you live in different places? Correct. One hundred percent correct. Yeah I, see you in different places but your hearts are close. Absolutely Yup Yup I also I see somebody who's either James or Jim or. J. John, I don't know. Janney. I have a sister Jenny who who, in fact lives near Mary. Okay. So it's J. With A. And then. Did. You guys have plans to take a holiday or a trip and you had to cancel it. I have done that over and over I have. Yes. Like you keep canceling your trip. I keep canceling I don't even know if I should make another one ever 'cause I just whether it's work or. Airplanes. General whatever I just like there were two weddings I couldn't go to and I should've more or not to recent. History of missing weddings actually. Yeah. I make plans. And it's not like I'm a last minute breaker. I just committed to my job because I have to support myself and I I do love my work but I. Think I, think you dodge some bullets. I think Fran I think your hat intuitive person. A very close I. Think you're right there energy is extremely positive. You're very intuitive I teach intuition I. Do I'm teaching that now privately with people if that interests you And I feel that. You're divinely guided. So I feel make wherever happens if things are canceled like that it happened for a reason and you prevented a problem that you may not ever know about. I believe that a thousand percent. Yup and It's better to just stay put right now and maybe because of covid nineteen or whatever it's just better to stay put right now. That's the plan what I see that your bed is doing well. Oh Gosh. It's yes and that's one reason I enjoy it. So much I'm very lucky. Very lucky. I. Know It are you extra busy? We're extra busy we're. We're. Is. that. I see like. Even, making more strides in making more money and doing better even. Well here's to hoping, I know the business is off the map I mean as a more than tripled this year is off the map And like I said, I'm very I love it and I just love it but you know what? I also love my family so. But you know what? It's better to wait a year till. The Kobe thing is you know settled down year year and a half, then you can see your family. I promise you. That is exactly what I'm thinking right now it's just a done deal. I can't just I am no fool I sedan deal trust your gut, trust your instincts what is Your Business? I am. In telecommunications and because of people staying at home and decisions are being made around the globe and everything can change on a dime and then you have to let word to your community I mean, we're just boom boom boom and it's It's it's. It's amazing. It is amazing and having said that I wish so much more. For, everybody on this planet. Or she knew. I do. You work hard you've earned it. Don't feel guilty. Be Grateful in always look at Your Cup flow which I think you do. And You know things will will come around eventually for people. It's just a really difficult time. It's just like I. It is a difficult time almost feel like the earth is being attacked. It is and we're doing it to ourselves Yup. Yup It's true. It's true. Well. Thank you so much for calling me. You've got an amazing energy. I really appreciate what you're. Amazing. I and I'm I sonny I see a little video on my phone and he's been like kissing you and really smiling away and the pleasure to see that as well. Thank you for having him with you. Of course you. So happy to be with Mommy today he didn't want to be with me last week. I had let him down. He was not happy but this week he likes. He likes being camera will Fran it's it's a pleasure. State, well in just be patient the one big lesson that we're all learning right now with covid nineteen is rati-. It's the big big lesson. And valuable to it's real. Yup, take good care. Thank you for calling short. Thank you so much. You have a wonderful weekend. Do the same all the best. Okay everybody that's it for now I WANNA. Thank. My dear friend Tony Sweet who has helped me tremendously with every show and is so Special to me. Thank you, Tony for everything you do for me. and. I want to thank my guest today Courtney I'm Barbara and sage that darling little sage what a what a sweetheart. Anyway. Guys please Connect. With us on twitter and facebook and Instagram, and thank you so much for watching tonight and happy new year to everybody for those of us. celebrating Russia's Shona and remember. Intuition will take. You places logic never could God. Bless you be well, stay safe where you're mass be safe.

Barbara Sage John Martin Luther King courtney Jay Tony Sweet Ruth Bader Ginsburg Janet Janet Fran J. John Raven. Michigan Margaret Or Grandma Mary UPN UTICA Ajay Russia
BEST OF: The Market Gardener - $140,000 on 1.5 Acres

Farm Small Farm Smart

1:07:25 hr | 1 year ago

BEST OF: The Market Gardener - $140,000 on 1.5 Acres

"Welcome to farm small-farm smart. I'm your host Diego D. I. E. G. O. Today. We're going back in the archives to pull out a previously aired episode. It's the best of episode let's let's jump right into it. I hope you enjoy it some here talking to John Martin for Ta in some are ten. You're making one hundred forty thousand dollars in sales on an Acre and a half. You have no outside income off the farm and you haven't had any for the last ten years now. Most people would hear that and think okay. He's growing a certain kind of green stuff but you're really growing vegetables in your book. You said a well established smoothly running market look at garden with a good sales outlook and bring in sixty two hundred K. per acre annually in diverse vegetable crops with a forty percent margin now. That's not what I think. Most people think yet. You're making it work so talk about what you're doing. It look really gardens. Well you know first of all. I think people need to know that you know this is these are numbers that we came up after fine tuning we've been doing for a little while here on the farm but when we started farming or when we got interested into farming are bet was that you know rather than expected index expect defying and buying tractor and taking the more traditional route of organic vegetable production which is is scaling up by mechanized tractors we went the other way we wanted to intensify our production. Keep on working with hand tools and optimize pretty much everything that we do on the farm and it started with the design of the farm. which is you know it's a two Acre Market Garden but there's a lot of permaculture principal and design stage and it was pretty well elaborated in laid out and then from then on we just we've been kind of fine tuning in evolving practices but always on the same land base and you know every year we get new tricks new technique new tools but we're never going bigger? We're only going better and that's been really the focus on our farm and <hes> that really explains we've been able to manage so much production and always getting a good margin by the fact that we're not operating with high over at overhead costs because everything is small and we're still using hand tools but we're still pumping up a lot of vegetables on the farm. No at the point where you're at where you've been established for a while. How does the grow better not bigger still apply? Get kinda early on where you're you're optimizing in tweaking stuff but you've been in production now for like ten years. So how are you continuing to optimize the system that you do have well. You know what that's a good question and again this year. You know small details but they make a difference. You know this year. We're we've. We've <hes> we're trying new ways of tracing cucumbers insider who has this is to have them more productive than they were before and you know it's not it's not a big big difference. I did point at this point in time. We're at <hes> molded ended on my wife. We're not looking for big boom. We're looking for low ten fifteen twenty percent increments but we're trying to get them in all of our crops and we're also getting a lot better at crop planning which is the process of doing all of the the lay out of the garden and what's GonNa be grown where how in the into winter to really synchronize it with our demand and we're getting better at this so when we're at Marquette you know we're we're always right on with what we have and if we're not have been we're taking good notes for the year afterwards and it's the same thing that are C._S._A.. We've gotten to really know our customers and what they like and what they want and that helps us. You know just again making things just a bit better and and sometimes you know there's things that come out and like this year just now we were trying to new tool. It's called the paper transplant and what it does that these are instead of transplanting Behan which is what we do would be and many the ads salads which are really spaced really close on the row. We have these paper pots that are you know transplanted with this. You know simple device machine and it goes a hundred times faster and this. This is the tool that we're trying out this year so we're we're. We're getting more production but also our aim at the farm has been to try and do so and have more of a life every year because when we produce more we also WanNa try and work less so it's kind of the ideal but that's what we're striving for sidetracked a little bit and play off of something you said there and then I'll circle back the paper pod transplant. There's one piece of appropriate technology technology that you're using. I know you're also using <hes> Rotary Herro different cedars would have you found in terms of gardening on this scale where you get the most bang for your buck in other words. If a new farmer was going to start out they should have this this this piece of equipment to make it most efficient and it's worth spending the few hundred maybe a couple thousand dollars on it initially because you're gonNA make up for it in terms of speed and this how well the seeds are set. You know uniformly that type of thing. That's a tough question because it's like asking me what part of your car makes. You know makes. It run really smooth so there's it's a system on the farm. There's so many different different things Li laid out together that makes it work but if you know if you were if I were to name five five of my best performing tool you know you mentioned the power Harrow which is different from the Rotor Tiller which it always brings up weed seeds from the bottom up and also also structures stall every time you use it so we've moved away from that and we're using this tool that works with the time on a horizontal level which is like mixing the soil will instead of you know pulverizing it and so that's really really nice for seed that preparation but the whole permanent raised beds also that's really important. That's how we get along without having a tractor because you don't need to be plowing plowing hilling shaping beds every year the beds are done and we just cultivate the surface using harrow and another great tool that we found along the way was these <hes> these <hes> tarps we we keep our beds covered with <hes> you know U._v. treated <hes> silence tarps and what's amazing about these types. Is that win. They're covering the vets. They're actually weeding them and the way that works is that because it's a you know the soil is undercover. It's it's moist and tarps. Make it a bit warmer and it's black so these are the perfect germinating conditions and so the weeds sees that are Dermott in into vets they Germany and then after a couple of weeks. There's no life so they die and so we've been using these types to really you know diminish the the wheat pressure and our garden and keep the garden on their control so that's that's another one of my favorite and then I could you know quickly out of my head. You know there's a great great new Salad Harvester. That's Howard by drill. <hes> you know handrail and I also was quite a timesaver <music>. I'm favor on our firemen and I could go on and on about all these tools that through the years we've either integrated into our system or we've kind of developed herself to make them to to to meet or needs and that's what's really great about farming small that you can customize pretty much what you want because you know these. These tools are simpler and <hes> yeah you're not talking about heavy machinery that cost you know tens of thousands the buyer or do you think that's been really the key to you guys making as much as you have of one and a half acres. It's really investing in simple technology that it works. That's low cost so you don't have any sort of debt you don't have overhead and high expenses and then just maximizing the amount of production you're getting using simple systems so if you have a process set and we know how to grow bile intensive and you manager expenses. It's actually not that hard to make that much money that almost the case. I wouldn't say now that hard because you kind of you need to make it happen but you know I've seen it elsewhere. Her and we've trained a lot of people two years and it's it's definitely a great way to start. Let's just put it that way and keeping your overhead low is is a great way to start and keeping the equipment the tool shed simple. His works works that way but really you've you've mentioned just just this idea of intensifying the production is is is at heart here because usually when you look at the farm all the spacing between the crops are determined him by <hes> the tool that you're using weed them and I e the tool is in most cases the tractor and attractors meant they take a lot of space on a farm and people neglect how much when you're covering a lot of ground. You're also losing a lot of time walking from one place to the other when you're when you're putting a row cover well you know if if you're five times as as <hes> densely spaced then you know you're using one fifth of the material to do the same job. It's costing you one fifth of the price and it's going five times fast and you know it's just this idea of intensifying. I think comes with this idea of optimizing a lot of the things that we do on the farm and for me this has been possible because we left the tractor out of the picture and I know all the experience growers. They really don't believe us on this but you know it's just you need to come. Come down and look at the pharmacy. How much production dares on an Acre and a half then how it's well managed because so close to one another and just just makes a lot of sense you find it a system like that? It's so intense so manage that it requires a lot of constant attention by humans in other words. I don't mean your babysitting at twenty four seven but on a day-to-day basis you have to be out they're managing and monitoring system because it is so densely stacked yeah and I think that is the key to success and you know vehicle I go outside and it takes me half an hour to walk. My farm and it's a pleasant walk. It's my farm is tiny. It's a micro farm. It's the size of the soccer field you know if you put all the gardens together and you know I walked the gardens every morning. That's you know six o'clock I go out my coffee and then just make around and I pretty much everything that needs to be done and I make a list and then I prioritize and then boom you know and I think if my garden would be five acres or ten acres it just wouldn't happen that I would walk everywhere because it would take too long but <hes> I think keeping things small from from what we've learned and that's the reason why we've never really extended is that you can really focused on you know making just a little tiny things making them. You know making sure that one hundred percent of what you seating will be harvested with prime stuff and that's what we've been focused on focusing on and you know we again. We've been learning new things every year and there's still much more to learn because when you really decide to be you know an expert in fifty different crops. It's GonNa take a while and so we're not done with learning but no I. I really think that one aspect of our finding success here has been that that we've kept things small and ninety two yeah love the idea playing right into your grow better not bigger of optimizing among each individual plans so not only are they intensively grown but you're trying to increase yields of like cucumbers like you said by ten percent just by management strategy of how your trellis seeing them not necessarily really you know juicing the soil with something but it's like little tweaks like that all the observations that you do see oh. We should try this. Maybe we'll get more yield. If we did that. Yeah like carrots. You know we work on thirty inch bet systems because all of our tools rules and most of the market gardening tools now are standardized with you know as it is it five rows of carrots four rows at five rows inch for over the two inch you know just it took us a little while to figure this out. They're trying to get the optimal spacings for Oliver Crop and you know this idea of bio intensive. We should really say biologically intensive because these words are important the concept the reasons why the reason why you can get these is close spacing and still have good yields is that you have amazing soil structure. You have good soil that you've built up through the years but you also have you know inactive biology happening in the soil and these you know all the earthworms worms and the microbes and spiders and you know all their names their activating the soil to make it more fertile there and that's really another key to the success and all of our tools on the farm. They're designed to be really gentle with soil because we know that these you know the ecology of the soil is important and we've been really focusing on that and that that I really feel that that's an important key. It's not just the tools it's also the approach approach and it's not about being dogmatic but it's about being very practical. You know these earthworms they work day and night. If you give them the proper condition they work day night telling the soil and it's just up to us to be clever enough to use the this you know this nate this nature to our advantage and you know I I've observed from from experience that Gert Worms they work when it's dark so they like the ground around to be covered like in a in a ground forest floor and so that's why we use a lot of tarps and that's why this intensive spacing is so useful because when the crops rapidly you know the lease touch another they form a canopy and that shades out the weed but it also creates this micro-climate fed is beneficial for all of the words that are operating in the crown and so when we farm when we're working the soil we're thinking about these earthworms thinking you know we don't WanNa be procurement and we WANNA be enhancing their role in our in our guard and I think that's that's a that's a clever approach to farming even bigger scale. I think people we should look into that did more yeah I think you're totally dead on their. It's been said that you feed the soil and then healthy plants are just a byproduct of that healthy soil Elaine Ingham's proponent of that now not only are earthworms working day and night but I seem to talk to a lot of farmers and they say oh my God. I'm working so much doing all this stuff. How do you organize your day when you're doing that? Walk Around Your Garden each morning. How do you prioritize because I think that's a big thing that a lot of farmers struggle with time management? What do I get done in a limited time? I have because you compartmentalize. You're a lot where you take time off. You're not working these fifty an hour days. No I'M NOT NO I. I was part of the goal when we started the farm we wanted to have. A productive microphone that was you know a place where it would be nice to live and we wanted to have a life because we have children than you know. We can't work fifteen hours of the wasn't. He won't see him anymore but I think that's you know if we've we've been focusing on being effective inefficient in everything that we do on the farm all the time and I think this continual focus has helped you know the minutes are the five or ten fifteen he minutes that were saving here and there they accumulate and make a difference at the end of the day and at the end of the week and so you know the the farm design in itself is really has been really thought to limit foot traffic on on the farm so everything is really close from one another. The warehouse is centralized so all the gardens are around it so that diminishes to the maximum foot traffic. You know we have an outhouse in the garden earned. We have to compost piles to make sure that we're not hauling too far away so that was like that was an initial step and then everything that we're doing. We're trying to really doing things efficiently and also you know just managing the day well. I think that that comes with experience you know after a couple of years doing it. We kinda know what needs to be prioritized more than others and men sometimes just putting these big tarps on top of things and just having the ground cleared weird and under control without doing anything because they're covered with tarp. You know I'd say a third of our garden is cover bell the time and it changes but that also helps keep the site under control and and <hes> yeah there's they'd probably a lot more to say but I thought my hand. I think these are the major points yeah like with the tarps. They're out there working for you twenty four seven while you're not doing anything yeah. It's a passive solar. You you know design. We just need to lay the tar and leave it work for a couple of weeks and you know people think that tarts you know they dry out the soil but they don't the reverse because the plastic keeps the humidity it just traps it there and it's just you remove these charts and then it's moist and if you've left something for the earthworms to eat like you know crop residue or a cover crop man you see earthworms everywhere and it's just fantastic so a lot of this organization's nations feeds into what you mentioned in your book and the Acknowledgments Thinking Your Dad for teaching you the importance of being well organized at a young age. Yeah that's really key. I think that's something that perhaps perhaps you learn. I don't I'm not really sure but you know for me. It's been it's been definitely an important aspect of our farming success but yeah I think there's design then there's managing and then there's tools and then there's just how you go all about it and I know we should never neglect also the intention. What's your what's your goal? What's your intention you know every year <hes> Mo- that end and I we take sometimes you really think about why we farm and what we want to get out of our firm and whatever objectives and then we plan for them to happen and you know our objectives are sky's the limit? We Wanna be productive. WE WANNA be efficient. We WanNa have quality of life. We WanNA be lucrative. We want to have fun. We WanNa meet cool people and it just we laid it out and then we just we just plan for this to happen and hope for the better and you know most here. That's what happened yeah so it's a lot of that idea of know what your objective is. No it's your goal is so you have something to shoot for and then you can design a system that ultimately gets you to where you WanNa be yeah and that doesn't happen overnight but that's that also needs to be understood. You know it took us a few years years to get to where we are but you know the farmers profitable even at the first year and it wasn't the Mar- It was it was the same margin wasn't the same amount of production that we're getting now and we didn't have you know as many people involved on the farm but still it's just I think that's <hes> that's definitely something that is worth thinking about planning for for what your objectives are not related to that. You guys have been profitable since day. A one would was really the key to being profitable that early on when it's you're just starting out. It's make or break at time. There's a lot of nervousness. There's unknowns you don't have a lot of experience. There's a bunch of front end expenses. This is how do you make sh or how did you help ensure that you were profitable right from the Yego now well before when we started the farm when we bought the farm and designed the already had for years of experience -perience going full time we were when we started farming we were actually we were wolfing on a fireman and then you know after four months this other farm has become farm managers so that we gained a lot of experience variance pretty fast. I was an acre. You Know Vegetable Market Guard so it wasn't a big thing but still we were kinda running it and then when we came back we started on rented line and we started with a P._S._A.. Of Thirty members and again Dan I was super small and I think that year we were grossing twelve thousand dollars something like that but still we were calling the shots we were making experiences and then the next year we went to thirty to sixty P._S._A.. Members and and then we doubled the amount of income and because we were basically just using the same equipment but just making bigger garden and from that experience we learned and then when we set up the farm you know we had a business uh-huh plan. We had a good design plan. We had spent quite a lot of time in that in that winter before planning out what we wanted to achieve and I think you know business plan and a farm design are too key components when you're starting starting out and then it's about what we started. The farming was putting the time and being you know excited an ambitious about what we doing and I guess that's the initial energy startup energy that you have when you kick starting something and and <hes> we were you know really excited and passionate about it being our home we built their house and you know the ponds and doug the raised beds and he was just so many things happening at once but I guess we were just a little bit of lucky also because the setup was good and it's in working really well ever since and and that's one of the reason why I felt like I wanted to share <hes> these concepts and he's in our story because if you start up right you know it can go a long way you know the the soils good here. It's you know as a good topography had good geography with regards to our market and all of this we had we had learned a lot from other growers before starting our own farm and that's why when people ask me what's the best advice you can gift. If people WANNA start a farmer's you know work at least one full committed year on another farm to see if you made for it and then start your own you start your o.`Neil thing and make your own experience and and then you building your clientele as you develop your skill set and as you develop your understanding of all of the moving parts that are happening in the garden and such such a great challenging work but you know as possible and all the people who are out there nee saying that it's not possible to to make it happen. I don't know if it's because they're bitter or because they haven't seen any better but and it's it can happen and you know our farm is just tipping point of what's possible on small acreage with good design and appropriate technologies in good skills about growing crops when you have markets. That are their direct selling. That's the whole key. You don't need needs to have big farms because when you had a big farm it's just the market is tougher to get in and you have a smaller farm. You know we feed two hundred fifty families and then that's that's enough. You know that's that's enough. That's a that's a lot of families to feed yeah for sure and when when you guys were starting out. Did you have a lot of support from you know friends and family 'cause I know a lot of people getting into this are around some of the naysayers saying hey. Why do you WanNa go down that lifestyle? It's not gonNA work. You're not gonNA make any money. You'RE GONNA work a bunch of ours so people get discouraged. Did you guys have a lot of support it. You're back when you went into this or did you face some resistance yeah well. I I think that we learn farming in northern New Mexico around Santa Fe and if some of your listeners know that area it's very special place and they had a farmer's market there in Santa Fe. was you know absolutely amazing racing and that that farmers work it was supporting at least thirty growers very small growers because northern New Mexico is not flatlined. It's all hillsides and mountains and all the farms that we were. That's where we learn how to farm because we didn't come up from a you know rule setup and I knew nothing about farming before working on wolfing on a farm there and it just all the farms that I were seeing really small and what I was seeing was a right relationship with regards to market. We're bringing stuff. The market people were thinking us and I tell this story a lot but I was working for this guy. His name was Rashard and he was selling salad mix and he was a salad king. There and you know I was doing the cash register and I was seeing all the money he was making and half day like man he just made two thousand dollars like man this I worked two weeks to get that amount of money and so that these were my first impressions and when we came back to Quebec we just started started her own little thing we lived in T._v.. For two years on rented land and we just didn't really know that farming was not supposed to work because what we have seen was successful farming and so we kind of blind least jumped into to it and when we bought the farm <hes> there was a lot of people there was a lot of resistance back there and then but I I had been to Cuba had visited farmers there that were farming without tractors and I had seen production on these permanent beds on Dacre than I thought you know if we get an Acre and a half of vegetables intensively cultivated just GONNA be so much work that I'm not worried about you know not having enough space and so I guess we were young and bold golden adventurous and we just started and our family did help and she thin and we even got government support because we had a good business plan and I know gay perhaps convincing or somebody there had a brain cramp but they said yesterday project got alone. I think it was thirty thousand dollars that we got a grant started farming. That sure was good help. Yeah that's awesome to hear really you only saw the better side of farming. You know so you didn't know I know that you didn't see sides that so many people get presented with of Oh the struggles you saw models at work and then you modeled after those models that did work which is really great yeah and I and I was reading Elliott Coleman. You know the new organic growers and you know it made it sound really cool and then positive and I you know it was very strategic and technical and and you know I it just and I was also you you know early on we were selling directly with P._S._A.. And we were getting people to thanked us for work and and I was carrying us and it still is when you started out you started out on rented land. I know there's a lot of people out out there listening. This probably WanNa go down that route was your experience working on rented land. I think it was important experience and important step before owning and buying land because we made a lot of mistake there and so next time around and when you make a design mistake on a farm and you have the luxury of starting over he won't make that mistake twice because you can understand how it can really you know make your life miserable. You know we were farming on clay soil heavy clay. It was a norton slope and you know it was just it was a big slope and there was water table was really high. Everything was going wrong and <hes> so next time around. We thought you know let's look for something a bit more appropriate for but he had a great view you know it had an amazing on the maths and it had a creek running down the bottom and we thought Oh you know when you're farming. That's what you want. You WanNa have this amazing view because when you're stopping you want to contemplate house our mindset back then and you know when you WanNa make living at this you need to get a bit more serious about what's important which regards to growing growing and so we learned that there and we learn a lot of different things you know but we all we brought this back to the new place and then we were looking for different things because we have that experience and I you know I Strung Jong suggest people go start their former on rented land because of that and <hes> because it is important when you when you buy a farm when you make one like like we did hear all of where everything goes. Oh all the design stage again you've had you've heard me say this. A couple of times is so important it just makes a whole different from the farm and especially if it's a small one because you need to be really clever about how to manage everything and Info yeah in regards specifically to renting. Do you have any advice for people going out there looking for rented land. I know you touch a little bit on it in the book saying that you know make sure you have an agreement in place that states with the expectations stations are what you're allowed to do what you're not but can you feel a little more on that yeah well yeah. That's that's one thing that I learned because there was a lot of things that we thought that was you know understood and they weren't and then you know when you occupy pupae stays with somebody else's land and you dig upon and then that person's like well I didn't want to do this and then you just Doug and you know forty feet deep hole white hole and you kind of stuck with it but yeah I think having a signed in contract of agreement is really important and also now more and more and I you know I know in California. There's a lot of land trust and there's a lot of land sharing opportunities out there. There's a lot of landowners liked to have have their farm their land farmed and it's great. I think if you can have a middleman between the mail you know maybe an NGO or somebody making the agreement for you with with <hes> you know legal advice ice and stuff like that I know here where we are. There's this group here that they provide that service they try link farm land owners with with farm starters and then there's a legal person that's in that shapes the contract and everything and I think that's you know that's more passive technical way to go about it but you know if that opportunities out there I would I would jump on that because I know that there's a lot of people that they do want to support support new farmers and they do have land and I don't know where it is where you are but you know sometimes acquiring land is just it's not a good it just doesn't make any business sense at all too expensive might as well just rented long-term and and trying to make the most out of that yeah yeah. That's what a lot of people are actually doing out here was talking to grow that lives near me and they're renting on a lot of land that would otherwise be used as sub developments while the land owners or holding out for higher real estate prices so that's one way that local local people could get access to land look at what undeveloped real estate property there isn't maybe there's some opportunity there yeah there. There's so many people that are hardly invested in making farming happens for. The farmers that I think that it's important for young people to young enough so young but mostly young people's to look into what's available what kind of health is out garrod and because a lot of there's a lot of support for for young the entrepreneurial farmers and yeah sometimes renting is is beneficial more than owning the farm knowing you find the came to getting that land. How did you arrive at one and a half acres acres why not one why not to really would him getting at is how does a person decide between the balance of what they can physically work in maintain and what will actually pay the bills yeah yeah well <hes> that's the that's the trick here because you always look at land and ratio underproduction with regards to how much income you WanNa make and I'm not sure that that's the best way to go about? I think you need to look at land and ratio with regards to how much you can really make make happen you know how much can you grow yourself or with one or two person and then from there you scale the bit you know you scale up I would say and when we bought the farm here the reason why it ends up being you know an Acre and a half of permanent raised beds it was two acre field in the middle of which had this rabbit coupe and and that's what we have you just land here. It's super expensive and that's what we could could afford and so that's why we cultivated that you know there's there's pathways and we put a little orchard and upon so so it ends up being an Acre and a half but you know I just tell the people if you're if you're one person alone and you're thinking that the nature and a half is not is not enough while you should come down here and visit what we're doing because we're four full-time all time working on that Adrian half to make it happen and we're working you know thirty five weeks out of the year in Norton climate so just when you when you do successions and and when you spacecraft differently again when you leave out the tractor in the setup you can get so much production and it's just you know so many gardening books I've talked about this before but it's just the side of bringing this to market bringing bringing these ideas of lasagna gardening or intensive spacing or whatever but making a business out of it and I think if I wouldn't say claim to fame because I don't like that thing but it kind of reflects if there's some America to what we've done I think is to have brought these idear to a to a commercial scale and to make it productive and profitable yeah for sure what you're doing. Is I think really remarkable arguable and I agree with you. You're you're bringing into light and you're showing that it can be done now. You also visit a lot of farms in market. Gardens are their common mistakes or areas that could be improved upon that you often see it farms that did you know connolly farmers are making these types of mistakes yeah yeah but again I don't. I don't like to say that too loud because I sound like an advocate for something but I think people are farming big. It's you know people start start. They have a hundred T._S._A.. Members and they have for acres and attractor and it's just for me. Just doesn't make sense at all. Your people are assuming that doing work with the tractor makes makes them more efficient but if you're not you know GonNa farm and have you know three hundred thousand dollars worth of production happening you know attractor might be just impeding you just it it just is perhaps making you stream standardized everything to your to your tool into your tractor and it's just an extensive setup and then you're losing time and you're buying all material and then you having a hard time keeping things things under control because they'd be thinking spaced far away. That's the most Nissan I wouldn't say mistake because each own. Who am I say who's right is who's wrong but that's something I've noticed through the years and I was one of the reason mm-hmm? We decided to write a book about what we were doing here because I was seeing that man are we. We're under control. We were having an eight to five kind of work load. <hes> the production was healthy. He was beautiful and we we're making you know as much money in the end as people that were farming you know fifteen twenty acres so I thought you know what's what's the deal here and then he was when I started to really look into what we were doing and why vite work that it clicked. I mean you know if you're farming would attract your in your scaling everything to that well. You're perhaps gearing yourself for you know for big production not for diversified the wreck fell while selling farm and the other thing that we didn't talk about Yego in in that adds up into our economic fears that we've been trying to keep labor costs to a minimum. I E having one or two employees because that's that's another aspect you know you'll hear a lot of more veteran growers say my employees at the end of the year they make more money than I do and the reason is because when you have a lot of paid people on on the payroll it ends up costing a lot because of all the you know. There's you know in Canada especially there's a lot of advantage you need to pay him. Blah Blah Blah and just by minimizing the amount of people working on the land keeping it to one or two and yourself and your wife or whatever you just keeping the money inside the family and <hes> that's not affiliate ear at all. You know. It's just keeping things small. It's easier to to get the production going. It's easier to learn what you're doing. It's easier to make it manageable. It's easy to find your niche markets. It's easier to streamline operations yeah so I guess I don't know if I'm answering your question but no that's. That's really good. I think that makes a lot of sense and I think won t that you stressed in here is operating small. You operate diverse you operate with a bio intensive planning method now. Do you think if you find yourself working. You know twelve hours a day three three hundred plus days a year then you're doing something wrong. You know my thoughts are after reading your book that if you're working that much then something's just not clicking right and you need to step back in reassess your processes well I would be somebody would probably come in shoot me if I would say yes to your question because a lot of that's the reality of a lot of people who are firming today and <hes> actually a lot of farmers take a Lotta prides saying that they were you know eighty hours a week <hes> for me I I you know I I used to be a tree planter and <hes> I was working up Norton in British Columbia and then we that's hard work I can tell you that's the hardest word you can imagine his tree-planting and we would put days of ten to twelve hours planting trees and at the end of the day you had really worked your heart out and and then this other guy had planted twice as many trees as you did and it was the same land same soil it was same setup and he was just he was just more efficient at it and I think that's sometimes you you need to think about that. You need to think about okay so what's my setup. Then what are my procedures in my losing tiny seconds here and there what am I two in my wasting a lot of time. Doing you know all these bet preparation mission in the spring like here in Quebec you know we have really really wet springs when the snow melts and and I I hear now people are struggling to get into their fields because it's too wet so why haven't you prepared your beds ten years ago instead of every spring when it's wet and it's just you need to sometimes rethink about how you're doing things because you can do things perhaps it more efficiently and <hes> it's the same thing with weed control a lot of the growers that I that are my friends. They're really interested in weed control mechanism. They're trying to look at the perfect weeding implement thing leaders a robot cultivators and not a lot of them are looking at we'd prevention you know how can you make it so that you have just less we'd to control you know transplanting close spacing because the canopy that shaves out the weeds targeting working the soil you know doing false seedbeds flame weeding either all techniques and so I guess you know if if there's there's probably a lot to learn and and <hes> that's the reason why we need to be sharing this kind of growing information between ourselves because we need to have more growers but we also need to have growers that are making making it happen for their farm and for their life for themselves and their family because if if we're GONNA have more farmers it needs to be not a job where people are struggling like crazy. They need to have a you know a decent lifestyle and I think farming is is it's the best job you can have each wanna be in the countryside homestead and there's definitely ways to make it happen to be fish than anyway. That's always been our goal of the farm here. Try and streamline everything to make it happen for us. Yeah love little great tips in there about you know preventing things that are going to lead to work down the line yeah now. It seems like to me from talking to a lot of people reading a lot of stuff talking to people like curtis like yourself that I don't think the hard part of farming is growing stuff. I think the hard part of farming seems to deal around a lot of the mental uncertainty that comes with starting in maintaining a farm venture optimizing systems managing your time effectively planning accordingly. It's those types of things that I feel like people struggle with the most and it's not necessarily well. How do you grow Oh lettuce or how do you grow lettuce more intensive? It's it's the other side of things. What are your thoughts on that? That's a that's a hard question to ask because there's so many things going on at once but <hes> Yeah I. I'm not sure if I I wouldn't say that you know. Growing is is perhaps not the hardest part but making everything Gel from eight to five. That's that's like what you're describing to making everything happens and <hes> these are either management skills and <hes> calling the shots and and <hes> a lot of his has to do and how well you're prepared I can we spent so much time in the winter. You know when we do our crop planning calendar. It's a long process but we take a lot of the field heat. You know all the decision making that would be otherwise taking in the summer when really busy and we bring it into the wintertime when when we have you know basically nothing else to do to watch the snowfall and go skiing and then we take that time and then we determine in the whole garden where what we're going to grow exactly. Where's it going to go exactly? When is it going to be ready when we want it and by? What is it going to be replaced as we do succession and for this to happen then we also need to know that if it's going to be replaced and when do we need to make these these starts from the greenhouse so that there's a effective timing going on and so what ends up happening and is that we know everything that we're going to do every week and and we timed us into winter and then in the summer? We're never asking US questions about what needs to be done. And should we be doing. It's all laid out in a in a in a crop planning process where it tells us what to do and I you know if we didn't have that. I I know we wouldn't be able to do what we're doing on the farm because they would be too much complexity happening and <hes> so that's you know that's something that you can learn crop planning and <hes> you. You know there's a lot of farm than the there's a lot of farmers doing already but I think that's such a key ingredient to having successful. <hes> you know vegetables farm and you talked about insecurity. I think that having having C._S._A.. Has Been a big part of the push why we decided to go into farming because we knew that we have the backing of these families that were paying upfront and <hes> you know in our market garden <hes> <hes> farmers market is about fifty percents the essays about thirty percent but that thirty percent of you know guaranteed income that we get every year. It's really important for you know all of our you know administration restauration and and covering our costs and so it it really is another aspect of successful farming. I think is is having this sort of C._F._A.. Especially when you're starting out you think it takes some of the pressure sure off but on the flip side they're also is some added pressure that you now have to deliver to this P._S._A.. So for a new farmer starting out how do you would you advise them. In terms of selecting what crops is to grow <hes>. Do you kinda model it. After what other growers in your area growing how do you balance between high and low value crops where people low-value crops don't make a lot of money yet people might want them yeah well. I think it's a good either to prioritize some of the higher value crops I because Joe only growing Broccoli or you know being and my take you a longtime longer time to make it happen and but I think it's it's about not doing everything at once and trying to master certain crops before moving to another like I it's hard for me to give advice because I you know I more comfortable. Just saying saying what I would do. I did start we we were doing you know twenty crops and when we were buying some from other vendors other growers that we know and it was very frank and objected wit or P._S._A.. Members were starting at we're not growing everything we're buying some or sourcing out but we want to eventually learn how to these crossing we did and every year we would try a couple of new ones and and add some and I because it's it's not that obvious to throw everything well and if you're not doing quality then it's you're asking a lot of your customers to come back every week and so focus on quality has been one of her goal ever since we started we've had one bad year the second year we growing rented land and we just we had too many things going and we just couldn't keep up with quality and I was for us. That was the steppingstone where we thought you know. We're not gonNA extend beyond our manageable limits. We want to keep the site under control because when you lose control you lose quality and then you just you're not as proud to bring you stuff at market. You know when you're bringing Kale that has little holes in it is the other work. You need to have Kale. That's like well. You know really nice because there's a net over it and so that's when you learn you know. You didn't cover your Kale or your you know. All of your other crops that are Christopher's and then there's holding them and well you how them under and then you start again and then you put nets and but you don't proud him under you put them in the compass Yeah No. I love the tips there now now say you're in a situation where you know we took away your farm and you had to move to a new area is start in new farm in that area already had established farmers markets. How would you approach that I would you try in differentiate yourself or would you just go and say okay? This is what I know how to grow. I'm GONNA grow it. Well and I'm just GonNa let the quality products be for itself. I would do that and I would try to advertise in my neighborhood or the people that I know and trying to get them on board with my project and that's the power of starting small you know Fifth Finding Fifty family is is just not that big of a deal. If you really think about it you can knock people the door on your street or in your neighborhood or you know on your where you are where you're farmers and you can. You can just say you know I'm growing. I'm new here and then. Would you like to purchase for me. I'm going to be your family farmer and that's you know you need to grow your own pie and <hes> not always here that you know the pies not big enough and you just I'm GonNa Start my own pie and then that's how I I would approach coach and then you know there's me things that perhaps you can specialize in but you know let's say I would. I would move to California or something like that because sometimes I think it's web is probably better than I don't know. There's a lot of people but I just probably so many growers that I I'd be surprised that I would come up with this amazing new thing that nobody's doing so for me just doing quality and and going with the local wolfing and just meaning the farmer you know these farms that God dig and dig and dig sometimes you don't meet the farmers anymore and and that's not what people want they wanna meet the grower because they wanna be supporting not just a farm but they you wanna be supporting the grower. I think right there that's a great point of connecting with your customer and allowing your customer to hear your story. See what you're about see your farm. I know a lot of people do farm tours offers and I think a lot of this is knowing not only how to grow your product but how to sell it <hes> meaning you just don't grow it and show that farmers market. There's also ways to display it properly. Shannon Jones talked about that on a podcast here. You have an example of that with carrots in your book. Keep the tops on the carrots just to show freshness. Even though people just say all cut the tops off and you take them back but and the other little tips there for you know in terms of displaying or or brings up the market well. We're starting your first market this week and we're preparing now and you know I have a picture in front of me on my board here and it was the first year we were growing in in in <hes> New Mexico. We've had we have these these friends. The channing grows and they were growing these root crops and they were piling them so high on their tables that you can see the guy and and man it's sold because the piles whereas you know the pilots were six feet higher tables of carrots and then six feet high of beets and it was just it just looked great and it felt abundant and they were very proud and so we've been doing that. He's really really high pile and <hes> everything's cleaned and washed and <hes> we're we know we're there was smiling and we're proud and I just it irradiates and I think you know there could be a lot of marketing done around the farm and that helps but you need to be bringing top quality and just be proud of it and be smiling about it and I think that that goes a really long way way. Do you think that's one area not to skin is making sure everything's cleaned really well and packaged up really well. When you do bring into the market don't take shortcuts there? Yeah I think so I think you know if you're not doing volumes that then and then and you're competing with other growers at market which is which is not a bad thing you know which is which is all good. You need to make sure that you're taking sometimes the extra step to to make your stuff beautiful and you know some growers they don't that's not they're saying to grow stuff. That looks really good and <hes> for them. That's not the important part but I know from experience that customers. That's what they want. They have the choice between you know <hes> radishes that don't have little holes and something to do well if both of them are ganic and locally grown and and you know I mean from small farms that are you know that you can have confidence then they'll take a better looking rashes because that's just the nature of offensive and <hes> so that's why I think if you WANNA have small farm you need to be focusing on quality because God fee only way you can beat <hes> the bigger farms and when I say the bigger firms I also talk about the big big big commercial farms industrialized far because they're not crowing freshness and <hes> qualities sauce and not there at the supermarket. You know you know think part of delivering that freshness is the planning in you talked a lot about how in the winter you've as spend the time planning. I loved the idea of that because you're planning something in a time time when you're removed from the situation where you can think clearly about it and then in the summer when time comes along you just execute the plan and then make adjustments according to whether or whatever so you're not having to think all this through <music> how much time as a farmer is dedicated to not actually in the gardens working with the plants doing marketing or bookkeeping or planning those types of things that come along with running phone yeah well. That's that's the part where I don't talk a lot about that my book and <hes> that's the part I don't really like like stuff we do planning and takes about two weeks in the winter and that includes <hes> making the seat order which is really critical because we make more or less one big seed order and so that takes about two weeks of her wintertime and then there's definitely a time of year when we need to pay this stack of bill has been accumulating and then to processes into do all the tax and and <hes> yeah but we try not to do this too much in the heat of the summer because it's just is then we won't have time to spend with the kids because we already pretty busy with the harvest and deliveries and stuff and then you have these little young kids that are there and they they they WanNa have fun with us so we kind of move vis as far in time as we can and usually November December then we do a little you know we do a bunch and then we do more in January February and March still you know but usually from April from April to September October we try to limit to maximum and let's say we have to paid employees and they're on automatic payroll and I pay fifty dollars a month for this automatic no billing things <hes> just deposit the money in their account and so I don't do anything at all so I've been looking also for solutions like to help me manage just extra work and <hes> yeah neither moving in and I are really good doc so perhaps eventually we'll have. Perhaps a part time person helping us with that. That'd be wonderful. People can look at you and say hey. He's been doing this for ten years years plus. You're making money. It's easy but is there something now that you're struggling with. Even if it's minor that you're you're just trying to work through or prove <hes> just to say hey you know there are struggles that you will face down the line even when you've been doing this for a while sure there's a lot of things that are not you know fully right on <hes> <hes> two days ago we had to be Hale and <hes> we lost a lot of Allah mix. That was a really nice and <hes> yeah we're still we're still trying to manage everything so that we're not losing time doing our work and <hes> yeah I nothing really comes up in mind but you know I guess we're you know my book was published in French <hes> two years ago and got popular in France and Belgium and in Europe also so we're getting a lot of a lot of the man and a lot of people WANNA have information a lot of people are calling a lot of people wanna come down and it's just that's been for me kind of hard Kanana's because me and more demanding we wanted to share what we were doing because we felt that it could help other people in their growing but we didn't want to have all this immediate attention and now that we do have it's <hes> it's. It's you know kind of new problem for and I know that Donald Growers will have that problem. It's kind of unique. Perhaps to what we're doing here but it's been something that we're talking about now how to manage and just getting these you know hundred questions every week how to do this and how to do that and <hes> all in the book. That's why I wrote the Book Right On for anybody WHO's out there listening highly suggest yes. She gets the book at if you're an all interested in this topic I've read through the Book Curtis Stone gave it to me but it's great earlier in the show you mentioned Elliott Coleman who are some of the big influencers that really got you thinking the way you did today you know beside him well. It's he's definitely a big big part of it because <hes> you know his book I had read it so many times when I was starting out because I was trying to figure out how to do it and I went fantasy fireman i. I've been meaning <hes> ever since then. There's just yeah it's funny because everybody knows who Elliott Coleman is and a lot of people revere him for his work but it's funny how it's not that many people have really followed up to what he was up to which was farming less than two acres and making it stand with you know four or five or six employees and <hes> yeah so he's been he's been really huge and <hes> men thing he was there but all these different books and there's a lot of French books out there and that I got these these older books that talked about how they were growing in the nineteen hundreds and then these guys there were there were growing and terrorist which is you know northern climate and they were doing eight successions a year into cropping everything and it was just super-efficient super productive not efficient mission because they didn't have row covers or they didn't have you know sprinklers even snare water pumps but they were getting so much and I and I read these books and I it's written in a you know these guys knew how to read and write in you. Eighteen fifties we didn't and I picked up a lot of things about that and all these different you know high yield gardening's things coming out of California so we're interesting to us when we started and I think I told you this earlier ear but one of our biggest influence also was when we went to Cuba and Cuba was very interesting because when <hes> Russia fell apart <hes> the the union you and then they didn't have any been feel for their tractors so they had to reorganize their whole grown systems and they they were growing on permanent raised beds and they were you know cements slab raised beds ads and they were intensive spacing they were fertilizing Guano in vermeer compost and you would see these ages and acres acres of permanent raise debts. It wasn't top quality but it was for me. It was the first time I was actually kind of seeing this idea of farming without attractor but on a broader scale and <hes> that influenced us a lot and then you know just by doing trials and errors and Janis catalogs you know all the tools that Johnny selected seed to their company in Maine Coleman worked for them for a long time so I think he's still does just all the tools that they've been and proposing through the years they were all right on to what we were doing and that that was that was great help for for the longest time also great influence on us all these new tools they were coming from them most of the time through their catalog standardized thirty inch and really well designed for market guard and <hes> so we needed the tools to do what we're doing and now that we you know we have to tools and and we have to means. It's it's really up to us to reinvent this noble profession of farming because it's it's right up there. Everything's there to make it happen. You'll love the idea there of going back to some of those old books that were written a century ago because I think there was so much advanced stuff going on that was forgotten in this age of the green revolution and cheap oil a lot of it just went by the wayside but I would definitely recommend again anybody go check out your book. I WanNa thank you for going out there writing the book and being advocate for this. What would you say to anybody? Now who's saying I want to go for it but I'm still a little nervous. Wow well you know you follow your dream in and you know what farming is an adventure and <hes> there's ups and downs but if you stick with it it's you know I think it's it's the challenge of our lifetimes to reinvent this professional one of farming and and trying to feed people locally and I see a lot of you know with with the with the demise of cheap oil comes an era of resilient you know biological agriculture. All charges are now agriculture and <hes> this is going to happen regardless of if if we think it is or not and <hes> so I see a lot of bright future in farming and you're not sure about what we're doing but you do take some time on other the people's farm and after a year to start your own. That's the only way you'll know if you if you're made for it and <HES> jeeze if you're starting the microphone and if you WANNA quit after two years not just a big deal you won't be investing investing one hundred million dollars to acquire anything and so that's that's the beauty of it you can just try to and if it doesn't work out then just do something different. Perhaps started farmers market there he because great advice in working more people find out about you your farm in what you're doing yeah well <hes> they can look up the website the market Gardner Dot Com most of the tools that we're using on a farm they'll find them there and and <hes> they'll they'll do you can read the first chapters of my book the Market Gardner and <hes> there's a couple of little podcast that are there and videos about how we farm in some of the things that we're using on the farm but <hes> I guess pretty much everything is in the book.

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Adapting Conservation to Climate Change at WWF  Re-Release

America Adapts the Climate Change Podcast

1:21:13 hr | 10 months ago

Adapting Conservation to Climate Change at WWF Re-Release

"Hi Everyone. This is America. Adapts the climate change podcast. Hate after working back to the podcast in this episode rereleasing episode eighty adapting conservation to climate change at WWF. It's been a while since I've released this episode and I have a lot more listener since it was originally released and I felt the content was too good not to exposed to a larger audience Sean Martin. WHO produced. The original episode comes back to share his thoughts on the Ridge laps owed, and what progress has been made since he originally said it was released, this was a fantastic episode for me. It took me to Kenya and I interviewed WWF staffer from all over the world. It truly is behind the scenes. Look at how large conservation organization tackles the challenges of integrating climate adaptation into their work Sean Joyce me for an updated interview at the beginning of the episode, and then he comes back at the end of the original episode and we talk about what progress they've made. Okay, let's jump into this conversation with Sean. Hate after's welcome back I have on Sean Martin of World Wildlife Fund. We're checking back in with John to talk about a previously released episode from December, Twenty, eight eighteen called adapting conservation to climate change at WWF case Sean Welcome back to the show. Doug it's great to be back. All right. You are an old timer with the podcast, but for those people out there who don't know you and I'm sure there's very few people like that, could you? Just what do you do at WWF? You actually have some different roles now than when the last time he came on. Sure yeah so if for those listeners who do know who I am. You can forward fifteen seconds for those of you who don't do I am I am Sean Martin? I've been they senior director for Climate Change, adaptation, resilience, WWF for the past eleven or twelve years in the last year, or so also become the acting lead for our entire climate change and energy portfolio, so I've been pretty busy guy all right? This was a really cool episode. I wanted to check back in ivory, released episodes on occasion and I go back through my archive. Myself and I'm like you know. What would I like to release because my listener vases? Just keeps getting bigger. Thank you guys for all being listeners out there and I thought this would be a good one. And as we released this, we went through this process and China. I want you to explain a little bit of it, but who originally got to go to Kenya for? This took me to Kenya to record a lot of things. Participants at workshop there I. Don't get to go to Kenya this time around. We were all sitting pretty neither do I.. Pandemic which is fine, but I wanted to re release it because I thought it was a really interesting exercise that you did, and we're GONNA. Talk a little bit about that now, but we gonNA come back on at the end of the episode and we're GonNa. Talk about what we heard, but. Could you give it a bit more context what we talked about it? Their original workshop sure I'm really glad you reached out to me to re-release this episode. I'm glad you thought it was worth rerelease. I was actually listening to your episode with Lawyer McDonald from the Walton Family Foundation and she was talking about how the foundation is. See level rise productions in. In the Gulf coast to inform their conservation work in the region, and it made me think of what we were trying to do. With WWF in that podcast episode, which is like two years ago now and then in that episode. You mentioned you had a colleague wwf that was trying to do similar things, said Oh. Wow, I think he's talking about me. So It's a great time to re released episode to keep that going for the last couple years of WWF. We've been trying to get into great. How climate change is affecting our conservation goals and outcomes, and what adjustments we need to make those goals and outcomes or our activities in light of climate change. We know that climate change is affecting the environment very rapidly, and some of our goals may be able to be maintained if we do things differently in other goals, we may need to reconsider entirely in light of how climate changes affecting the environment in real time. So that podcast. We were actually documenting the process of what we are calling. Climate, smarting our conservation strategies, and we went to Kenya with a group of about thirty people from all over the world to look at our conservation strategies see how climate change was affecting them, and then looking for ways that we can update them in light of climate change in packs. All Right, so my own perspective is that I thought it was really cool that you invited me to be part of that, and we were able to document it through podcast, and in some ways it was kind of looking behind the curtain at wwf in the whole notion of conservation, whole notion of adaptation, and it was a fascinating to see what happened that workshop and very fascinating to just have my one on one conversations and. Again I got to go to Kenya I've talked a lot of people, but a lot of the conversations were actually recorded even after before, and all times of the day because I'm talking to people and I think. Madagascar Har- in the Philippines. World. So It's my world now with some of the other interviews I'm doing, but yeah, that was great. That was really interesting, but we're. We're going to have a listen, but before we jump into the going back to that episode, it's not as long as it used to be. And what was your thought process for? We've cut this down a bit right, so it was quite a long episode. I think over two hours and a lot of the information in there is probably not crucial to your audience. At this point I wanted to have a lot of information in that episode because I want a WWF listeners to really listen to. To everything people had to say about climate smarting our conservation strategies, so we've probably taken out about a good forty five minutes or so so it's much more concise. The listeners will get the essentials of what they need to know. Vow. WWF is approaching this topic and hopefully they'll learn just as much. Okay, Sean, YOU'RE GONNA. Come back on at the end of this episode. We're going to hear from you about all the challenges, but all the progress that's occurred since this episode came out I'm very interested to hear what's happened, so I'll see you on the other side. Thanks, we'll touch base at the end of the episode. Hit actors, we are back with a very special episode. I am with Sean Martin. Senior Director for climate change. Adaptation Resilience at World Wildlife Fund in Washington DC. Hey Sean a great to be back. Okay Sean. As you know, this is a very different episode for me. I'm very excited about what we're doing here. This is eight months in the making. It started off in Kenya and been very excited to sharing this with my listeners in. So, how did you come up with this idea in? How are you going to use this episode? So for me. It actually started before our workshop in Kenya. It's a year in the making for me I thought you know we're. We're really trying to adapt conservation at World Wildlife Fund. Were you know trying out some new ways of doing that and I really wanted to document the process and the learning over time so that WWF staff could learn from it, and hopefully your listeners as well so we're actually producing an audio documentary. Okay so WWF is a fairly complicated organization. You have offices all over the world, but WWF isn't a single organization. Can you give a little background to help? My listeners better understand WWF as they follow the rest of this episode. Shore WWF is pretty complicated organization. Many people think we're just one single organization with headquarters, and all of our many offices take direction from that single headquarters, but actually we are a federation of thirty or more. WWF, by now with one hundred offices, all over the world, and each country has its own conservation strategy, and so when we dive into this episode, your listeners are going. Going to hear from lots of people from our country offices all over the world, and it's it's good to remember that they each have unique challenges with conservation and climate change in their countries, and they all have different strategies to tackle those challenges. Okay, so let's just do this in the first part of this episode. We're GONNA. Take a world to learn how climate change impacts. Effecting WWF conservation work. Yeah, so I'm really excited about this part of the episode in Philippines. We're going to learn how that country and WWF involved in planning for super typhoons. In Uganda will learn how increase water scarcity is driving conflict between farmers and elephants, and finally will land in Capetown South Africa to see how severe drought there has affected. The city has even made it difficult for W staff to come to work. Okay let me just say really quickly. How awesome it was for me, even skyping in with these folks from all over the world, it was just fantastic opportunities, so let's jump right in and hear from them. Yet you buy I had the climate and energy program for wwe Phillipines Okay so help. My listeners visualize the Philippines. What are some of the climate impacts that you have to deal with over there? Okay, so the Philippines is an archipelagic punchy where full is the over seven thousand six hundred islands, so we got a lot of typhoons and storms from the Pacific very strong ones, but. But since we have a lot of violence and we're surrounded by oceans, sea level rise is also big challenge for coastal communities. Okay, so typhoons are something that the Philippines have to think about every year and this you have a great story here and I just want to set up a little bit. You went through this process. It wasn't a scenario plan. It was vulnerability assessment, right? Serve combination of both we did what we called a business risk assessment and based on that assessment. PEOPLE MAKE US scenario building exercise, and the star was going to say was that I facilitate that a a scenario building exercise for a worse case scenario for the city of Tacoma. So we went through the exercise and part of their story was that by twenty twenty three? There'll be like a super typhoon that will visit the city and basically devastated this scenario building exercise have been just. A little over a month before Super Typhoon Haiyan visited the city and it's it's very tonight. Get goosebumps because I see how the actually envisioned that be visited by a super typhoon. They just didn't have enough time to really bland and prepare for it at the time. Hyeon was the strongest iphone to ever make landfall. It was beyond category five. You Know I. I still recall the the scenario building story came out and when we match will how awesome that I phone was even the worst case scenario cannot compare the what the reality was especially. What happened after I? Mean you'll get components of of some of those that are in the story, but there's certain things that you never really. Thought off in terms of what would actually happen if a super typhoon visited. My name is Jacob from An. Workers. The climate change money job for the WWF you the country office. What are the some the changes and climate and weather specifically to Uganda that people there and and I? GUESS WWF is most concerned about one of it is the prolonged dry spells your realize that still within the pox you wildlife would require what's especially for the elephants, so we the increasing dry spell's to medical driver. What associates in the park when this World Service with says dry? D benefits to find a way out of the. Inquiries, a bit national pack is where you'll find the elephants stole. We have the increasing drought under arrest. Do water levels recede down and down, and we've hot kisses where I'm elephants of left the Puck area. And crushed on community to crops. But most interesting is the communities have also in one way or the other in crushed, the land around the puck because the land is not dry, there is no what's and the client seems to be hot some moisture shop, and because it's naturally comeback by Chris Oh they tend to go into funding there so as plant. Their crops would the POC but. The elephants interested in the bananas. They have planted because they feel. This is a fruit for us. So what was actually happening when NFL visited the farm day one at and simply goes back and tells the rest that that is food somewhere and the whole week to visiting this place, and so most of the elephants and elephants always get to eat at night. So what's the communities have got I've gone into their houses. There will come into guidance in destroy almost your whole livelihood communities after Commute Waking Up in the morning and finding that the hall garden was destroyed, and they got the district authorities and fell them. If you do not control these elephants. Going to kill them, so you typically find that at the end of the day, the impacts of climate change that Uganda is facing will undo some of our conservation efforts. My name is cal. Don't cheat widening and I am currently the senior many John Climate Change Program in WWF South Africa. What are the changes in climate and weather in south? Africa that people are most concerned about 'em in South Africa. We are mostly concerned about the recent drought that has hit most of our Tell C. which is Cape Town. It took Queenie. Queenie, as when s parts of the Eastern Cape province, we even heard about that here. United States that Capetown was. There was even a potential date where you guys were going to run out of water and when you're dealing with a situation where humans aren't even to have access to water. How does that make your job more challenging when you're focuses on wildlife? Allah job is was made more challenging from the basic thick that I'm within the Arianne Capetown. saw a lot of people running out of water and the. Heavy set up various points web. People can come with. KITSON continues to collect water so from them. Basic human leads side as that. Something that is very real and serious and experiencing it through our stuff turnout way you would have a lot of people struggling with what especially those that are coming from townships. What townships! Mainly people that way you'll find a lot of black communities in that, and you'll find that they will have challenges coming to work because they didn't have water to really prepare themselves infra intact. Emily's so that is actually me. Norwick, quite difficult, but at the same time we also. Playing a role in terms of wicked close with this city to come up with measures to help this see to cope with the. Ambition that Kennedy experiencing 'em resulting from water shortages. Alright those fantastic I hope everyone learned what WWF. Offices around the world are going through what the varies climate change impacts that they're dealing with so Shaun. What's next so next? We're off to Nairobi Kenya to listen in on a three day workshop that we held in April you've learned about the climate change impact, some of our offices are facing and what we were. Were doing it. That workshop is to look to see if our offices are actually addressing those threats in their conservation strategies, and your listeners will find out what we learned there, and how we're developing a process to move forward and help offices really get a handle on how they're going to manage these threats going forward. Okay adapters pack your bags. We're going to Kanye I am here with John Martin the World Wildlife, Fund Hey Sean. How's it going, Doug, it's going great, so let brings us to Kenya We are here for a three day workshops with about thirty people and what we're going to do is review conservation strategies to see if they make sense in a changing climate, and we're going to make modifications to those, and then what we're GonNa do then. Is that learning from this climate sporting process and we're going to use that information to help inform country governments as they develop their national adaptation plans to make sure that the kinds. Kinds of things that WWF would like to see in a national adaptation plan are actually there are a little bit more history. The whose idea was it was multiple ideas from multiple people converging at the same time. I've been a WWF for seventeen years now about the last ten of those. I've been working on head up station. It's long been my goal to have WWF move away from adaptation of being a standalone program or initiative. Initiative into something that's more holistic with the rest of our conservation strategy, so I propose decide climate-smart. All of our conservation strategies might call. It came up with the idea that we should be really surging together as a WF network to influence national adaptation plans, and we decided that those two things would work well together as one single initiative, so you have given me a little bit of a preview, and you have your own expectations. Expectations. We can dig into those a little bit later. But what do you think the nations of these people that are coming from all these different country offices in all I'll get some of their own feedback, but I'm just curious here at the beginning. What would you think they're expecting I don't know what they're expecting. I only know what I hope they're expecting and that is that WWF has decided that it's important to integrate climate change. Management into our conservation strategies and I'm hoping that people are here to learn more about that so that they'll go home and have the same kind of process with the staff back in their offices now. I don't know if that's what people know. They signed up for by coming here. Some people have the impression that we're GONNA come here to talk about adaptation. What are some of the solutions we can? To help preserve our conservation strategies as they are in I'm moving this an entirely different direction. I WANNA make sure that we're reviewing goals outcomes before we get into adaptation, some of the goals that we've set for ourselves. Really need to be rethought when you think about climate change are some of the things that we're trying to achieve in the next five ten years. Are they actually going to be achievable in the long run with climate change, and if they're not, maybe we should rethink those goals at the end of this workshop it everything just went perfectly with all these different participants. What would that look like to you? I, think and I'm hoping that people are going to be really excited to go home with a new way of thinking about conservation. Conservation in a changing climate and go home and work with their country office staff to really revise our strategies. If we're not revising our strategies in light of climate change like Dan Ash said on a previous episode of yours. We're really not doing right by conservation. We can't escape climate change. We can try to slow it down or limit, but we know there's climate change is baked. Baked into the system that were already going to experience. No matter what we do on climate, change mitigation and I don't think our strategies are really embracing that fact as much as they could. At the end of the workshop I'm hoping that everyone understands that, and they'll be motivated to go home and make some change in their own offices, and then we have this other part of. Of The strategy for Nat National Adaptation Plans National, adaptation plans are real opportunity for conservation groups like WWF to make sure country governments get it right as they seek to help. Their neighbors adapt what I say. Get it right. I mean that were adapting to climate change in ways that support and do not undermine nature, and in fact, we're helping nature adept through these national adaptation plans. I think there's a risk that country governments might overlook nature. Has They tried to help the vulnerable people in their countries? Of course we need to help vulnerable people, but we think the best way to do that is by also supporting nature because those provided important ecosystem services for people to adapt to climate change as well as for their everyday livelihoods. You've probably have an idealized way of thinking. If a country office was doing something really well. Are there any countries that you hold up as models that are saying okay. They are well along in this process because they worked with you with the WWF adaptation office, or are people that are starting off on a level, playing field WWF, our offices vary widely in the adaptation experiencing capacity. They have in their own offices. Some offices are doing great things, but still need improvement. Others are just starting, and it's a good sign that they're here for this workshop. Was it clear to you what I'm thinking about what this workshop is about? Yes and no. We've got a little vague for me. Though is like you're saying we're not here at the end of the week to tell you how to adaptation. It's like the look at your conservation that to me. Okay, we wait. Where's the adaptation? So that was a little vague for me, if I'm giving you feedback now so. So a lot of people. Still think at adoption is about a single project standalone project that you stick in somewhere in your overall conservation plan and a lot of people I think are going to have expectations of this workshop. Hey, we have forest fires in our country. Tell us what to do. How do we adapt our way out of that? That's not what we're going to talk about here. We're GonNa talk about you have forest fires. Is A long term goal of saving that forest, even viable with increasing number of forest fires. Yes, did it gets tricky is like. Are you just giving that? Feedback on good conservation plan making that link to like this is part of that adaptation story. That's it's a little bit tricky. But reviewing your strategies is itself adaptation. Wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't climate change and what we're doing wrong is that we're not considering climate change at the goal setting stage of our strategies. We set our goals based on the existing biodiversity outcomes that we want to see, and then we think we're going to adapt our way somehow to achieve those goals, and not everything is achievable with climate change. Okay. I'm with Sean Martin here on the first day of the event. Hey, sean, what's going on right now? Well, we are three minutes before starting time, and I'm very happy to see that everyone's on time. really excited about today. There seems to be a lot of energy in the room. People are talking and excited to be here. We are going to start with quick for. Everybody to this other. Details are. All, right, we're going to do exercise. I'll answer your feet so the first question is an easy one. If this is your first time to visit Kenya moved. Do this night of the roof. If you've been to Kenya before where you live here to this side. Welcome do Kanye. I'll be. Right back to the center. So I. Just wanted to go over a few days of what why we brought all. You hear together what we hope to get out of the meeting, so we all of you here together to start forming this community of practice, mainstream considerations into strategies as I collected all the countries strategies that are represented here today, and I looked at them, and we have not done that as well as we should have so. So. We're going to try a you ways. Introduce you to how look at his strategy to tell if it is climate smart enough for nuts and we are not here to tell you how to do this. We are going to expose you to some ideas collectively. We're going to decide as a community. What should best way for wwe after climate market strategies for? You could do whatever you wanted your offices learning practice. Okay, we're starting. I'm interviewing some folks here and I'm with. Philippos Denver from WWF Kenya Office. From. Of Mongolia office I often. This is the first day. What really are your expectations for this meeting? Yes for me easy decision on. The being strategies submitted the National Office Strategy Really. My expectation is that we can make? This strategy is a really big limits much. Incorporating climate risks. Okay, so, what are your expectations? Yeah, my expectation is really learning, because we use in our congressional strategy, those words like resilient climate marks without. Much. say meaning is worth. So I really have to have to learn about how to to make. Our strategy climbed smart. My name is new plumbing, right? I'm Beijing. Office, so, what's your role for this workshop? I want him MD convenient like Sun man also that the practice expert for climate adaptation work for climate in practice would have you thought of so far. Has it met your expectations and he surprises the surprise. What I can say is that it's good. For the participant. Conceal that of energy in the in discussing the issues, so we good sign your responsibility with WWF is working on the national adaptation plans across the planet. I guess I didn't quite get is that a country can have a national adaptation plan, but they have to fall under a certain category to do the national tation plans. You're helping, encourage. Because then we'll be eligible for some this international funding. This show the. Terminology what we say naps. Is Cam from the negotiation process right, and and if you want to access the international funding from like the and others, as the naps could be one of the Eric that east continues to do. You must have been. For Y.`all remembers Matthews and he came up with this way to describe conservation the changing. Our business as usual Buzzer Vatian assumes the client, is not it? There's two ways we. We approach conservation. Assuming a stationary planet, we can restore ecological balance, repair, damage, places, or preserve things that are not yet dentist. That works fine. As long as the climate was changing and Chris is the. Times that so why he propose is planted changes affecting the paradigm of observation. We can't do this anymore. We have to think about a changing planet and actually acilitator chain, helping nature adapt not trying to the saying that's impossible. So. How did you come? Look ran out of time. This will. Okay, so you had a discussion on which begin a pet. Off You get all the ideas on the table. And then you sort it out as a group while you been reassigned the now we're going to use Satan. Exercise on something. That's a little more complicated so thinking about this question. What are the essential elements or characteristics of CLIMATE SMART Observation Plan? You might have more than one answer to this question as okay. We want lots of ideas, and I want you to write one idea per post. It note up to three ideas for person. Take a few minutes to do that and that will start snapping. Many I'll start with this table. Resent one idea you just come to the rock. Star with. He's going to say what it is maybe say. Sentence about what that means and anybody else who has same or similar idea when she's done speaking, come up and snap. Yes. Sorry I. Is Identification of climate. That's Self Expos. House. Come on up. Vicki Goetze! Ours is a bitch. Civic elements briskets documents saying the current climate threats tools. Any snaps to that. Subset of. Pacific going out. Big. J will one. Idea? Of. US addressing best. Snaps to addressing why you've identified year. Now bringing up. There are one four six. I wanted to have five or six looks like me. Have that as our starting on now? We're going to refine these concepts. When we start actually looking at our conservation strategy, and then by the end of the workshop will have find this that we can present to the entire network of this has come up with on while we wanna see as a climate for the. Sean is leading them in something weird. Okay! Delays! A tree post or wrap your foot. pull it up. So you deesor together. You're trying to get your piece is closest, plus this is hard. If you really good, you grab behind your back. On. is about other words resilience everywhere our strategy. We're GONNA. Make sure needs something. Is Not enough trouble this concept, the resilience worth beginning that when you Dan recovered from shots and disturbances worth meeting about returning back to what it used to be. Is just continuing on as the past we have all these words conservation that really the managing or persistence not change. All of our favorites conserve protect remain, restore return fixed permanent, long term sustainable. When you see those words to strategy is Red Black. Can we really do that or be? We have to manage for change not resistance. Is just a brain or you have to agree with this limited you will. You will the. Some of these ideas and these ideas do our strategies. Some walking around as they're reviewing the conservation strategies again and they'll read a country concentration strategy. Then everyone would go around and get some feedback. Event on three point one. I really liked the way that you had science-based climate data. The connection that was great. Security this. will in different places to what you would have done with climate change. Their future, which presumably a science-based, so that's nice that you've got refugee. That's very nice, so i. Guess is easy for me to see. Your feelings of what's your? What he said about. Using the wedding, stop sample cheering to to stop Saudi Galician before sufficient vitamin C, loss. Said climate is. Changing of Wisconsin stopping to be something very ambitious, so perhaps you can buy. Acknowledging permit is a threat to this dog it. Can Be can use the would. I was just. Just looking around the room, there's people from all over the planet here coming together. That's strength of this approach. WWF should be proud. We've got people from central. America Asia all coming up a conservation strategies all trying to come up with adaptation strategies. I am Maggie Command and I am the wildlife practice leader for WWF International. So, what do you think of the workshop so far well? The workshop has been great for me. It's been especially important going through the various countries, strategies and trying to see where climate should be placed in the strategies where it's missing or people implied that it's there and the consideration may not be there because last year. Year the wildlife practice developed their strategy, and in going through it, we withdrew some of these comments that are being placed in now because we assumed that climate was ever present in people's minds, and that we talk when we talked about resilient ecosystems that people would be thinking about the effects of climate change I'm learning that that's not always true, and when you're trying to change people's approaches and. Especially, just introducing something new to how we go about doing things, those statements might need to be in there. So I'm going back to our strategy to look at it with a bit of a different different. Look to it. Madonna toughest from WWF Mexico office, and the Monitor and evaluation coordinator. What are your expectations for this workshop? To be honest to understand a bit more about adaptation and climate change because he doesn't mean it's not my main area of work. Just a little bit of Mexican flavor. If you had to describe okay, what are you really protecting in? Mexico and I know you could talk all day on that, so our main line of work are the Monarch Butterfly Migratory route, and then the hibernation site some work with coral reefs seeing that you. We have a big ocean program which includes Wales Sharks. Turtles and all the communities depend on tourism with those species further income, so we've spent the bulk of the day in these groups where you've gone through page by page. Is there any specific criticism against your Mexican plan? That stood out or was it all just positive? No, no! Definitely needs a lot of work it's it's doing better because we've had a couple of exercises in our own office. That have we have at? This strategy, but there's definitely a lot of. Positive comments, we've received about it no one about the makeup up the workshop itself I mean. Do you like the structure that? Sean is set up probably been to a bunch of workshops a bunch of meetings I. Guess What are the positives and negatives and you can say something negative shot on. He's open to. This will be a boring podcast. Great. Anything that's not working or what's working I've actually enjoyed the dynamic of the workshop. I've been to through a lot of them, and most of them are really long, and you get lost in the middle of them, so he's very well at tracking time and keeping people on the subject. You're supposed to review, and it helps out of the breaks. You get because you're able to attend. Whatever is going to Europe in your office? That's not going to stop. Here how'd you feel about the Fried Gizzard at the coffee break? The other. That was really weird. I can have salty things with my coffee breaks. And oh please. Coffee was terrible. Downside of things I can have instant coffee. Yeah, that was a really bad point. Yeah, Sean, please take care of coffee. So I'm Travis from the office and the is. Out of Titian cloud expert. Here so she? says. So this our during the huge. Spices. Nonvoting. So basically our are these forty areas, and we had ten outcomes, eight nine and seven, which is a lot, so the process with did as a nation we have goals, and we have outcomes for each team and what we did was we sat down on the net at night the we. The goal coordinator, basically the expert on that theme. We sat down with them and we did this. We decided we were going to do comments to the goes. And then we went into more detail outcome level and we ask this question. First one was. To identify clear conservation were welding targeted these helps. Tyson piece of extreme events, presumably you have for your outcome of area species, and in the future species moves out of the. Need to be very clear with. The? Hours and he may change in some cases. It's going to be the area in some cases the species, but if you don't have that clear, you can fly in the teacher. What your strategy going to be? We decided climate risk for each one example excite. Implications for the target about this clement. Risks and then wasted tackled this Ivories for time. This was just a casual. Sit Down with the expert. We didn't want them to think it was a very long planning process again, so we just as the. What is your idea of a goal? What do you think climate change than? Just talk to me about it, so visit sample is important place. I was telling you about yesterday. So expert just started describing events leaving having and the impact that has had the butterfly so twenty two thousand trees fell vantage. Sixteen hundred butterflies, the guy how tourism is impacting the butterflies of is because of climate change there. There's a warmer winter in North America. The Butterfly comes down later and of coin sites with tourists coming in, so we'll stressful moment for them, but because the tourists coming in, he's already written down to. They've they're allowed to go it. You can't change it, so one of the problems is that they are going at the same time, and that's GONNA be a risk for us. So we, we all did his vision they may. We said implications for conservation targets, so for example your division targets on the community because they live or their income estates in the tourism one of impacts. Your mind wants to consider. The tourism is not coming in anymore. Those communities aren't going to have any. or if the butterflies really stress because of a weather thirty storm you're going to have. Signed. With, the move outside of that area, your target is going to be effective slugging to decide which target given stick, which and then finally you. Talk to them or they talk to you about ways to tackle those things. So they say we need to for example, shift or make flexible the tourism dates so they could come in once place ready settled down. Win Need to start monitoring Borussia over into someone trying out. The virus is moving outside areas and start to. Plant trees in those areas. Good some for the two. Questions. Is Slow you. Down at the table Yes so the team is the common expert. Insights regarding. The plants. And, then the X. were. In casual talk. Yeah it's it's about an hour with. It's very useful to mention this to them because they're very busy time, they are done with all this planning or long process. Their, time. I'm Marie at Stevens from the Dutch office in the Netherlands. There in that office. I'm nick clements really resilient for Sir I advise my colleagues on how to integrate climate adaptation into their contract patient. Did you have expectations heading into this meeting before you actually arrived here? We've been on day two now, but did you have expectations where they lower the high expectations, because a little bit of an unusual meeting well first of all I really was looking forward to make to be of my colleagues. I speak on the phone or on email, but I don't travel a lot. So that was especially. My colleagues from Mongolia. Malaysia Indonesia Russia it was. Really heartwarming I had high expectation of the workshop, but I have been to shown to work on adaptation before near was really good, and especially, the first day was really very good I think the exercise where we try to come up without any big crowd information where we try to come up with what do we think is climate, smart conservation and what you saw that people came up with all the elements that were needed. Before even toll, so so so we have! We have to trust more on our own knowledge, so it's a very good way of F- remain what you already. No one expects I guess. Did you have the chance to give feedback? If things needed to change, yeah, I've already had to experience of giving feedback on some of these plans and what you see in in general why you on on a level of advisers can have very good interiors discussions you traitor ride up things, but very often what happened on the management level? It's it's got its disappears. And you have worked on it for quite some time, so it's GonNa be very disappointing. You. You have a few things to say about the use of science that. Oh, well, we. We started climate, smarting process by decision of the head of conservation to look into the climate impacts for all our. Dutch priority regions are thirteen terrestrial regions. We focus on. and. We had an interesting researcher and he went ahead ended his research. And there was a complete mismatch between our expectations, and what people need it on on the crown, and what he came up with what he came up with even our science visor and me who has seen some climate scenarios, find it so hard to understand and my conservation colleagues not comprehend it at all, so we sat down with them for three hours and took him through. But what it did, is it put people off? They got scared. I don't understand this I need to understand this, so instead of engaging them. We sort of pushed him away with the scientific information. It can be really good if you already know what you want to know, and you have really good extensive. Conversations with scientists, it won't really help the implementation of climate adaptation on the ground into I. Face, and I think the approach that Mexican officers take just to sit down with people not necessarily is actually talk about climate change. But what do you see happening? What is your experience? That can be really empowering and helping people to see. Any final thoughts about we have one more day tomorrow or things that you might take back to the office after you return to the Netherlands. Yeah, I have I have so many ideas. MY HEAD IS IS A. Is a bit exploding it moment, but certainly I will take away to the Mexican approach. Just sit down with the experts and ask them what they see happening, and and involve them and engagement, and empowered him any thoughts for Sean. You want to talk directly to Sean. What do you have to say about this workshop or what? They should be doing after this workshop more stretching. All right I'm here with Nikki Giovanni on the second day I. Want you to Spring Dirt, and since this is Ati, you can just wink once for yes, two for no. No it's been great so far for me. One of the nicest things these meetings is these are all colleagues it up work with before a bunch of them I funded projects in the countries within the last year. So it's really a nice way to catch up. People so tell me about the first day. Meet your expectations anything missing. Yeah! I thought it was good. We started to do a bit of a deep dive into some of the strategies overview of the whole climate, smarting process, and what kinds of things to look for a lot of Nice sort of interactive activities. Why do you see value in the whole process? Well, the idea is that all officers are mainstream climate adaptation into what they're doing and up until now I feel like it's the kind of thing that people just pay lip service to the right climate smart here and there on the strategy, and they'll claim that they're adapting to climate change, and that's not the reality, so I think this is a good way to. Develop a more coherent approach to it. But but the next step to me. Even this is is a is an intermediate step. What really needs to happen after this is? For all the different countries and all the strategies we need to identifying one or a few projects where we can really integrate climate change adaptation, so you have quite a few projects that take you out in the field yourself. Maybe give an example of that I. Think you work with elephants. With what are those projects? Yeah a lot of my species work is actually behind a desk and working with experts, not necessarily interacting with the species, but yeah, a lot of my work is getting data on how communities are being impacted by climate. Change said next week I head out to Madagascar and doing a training for Peace Corps volunteers, so we work with the Peace Corps in over ten countries, and the volunteers are collecting data for us on how the communities they live in being impacted by climate change, and then we're working with them to develop and implement projects. Projects that help those communities adapt to climate change. Okay, so you're collecting some data, and then you go to that process of actually helping them implement it, but how does that what you're doing? especially with the data plug into a country office adaptation plan. Does your work fit seamlessly into that process? YEA, great question it should and up until now you know in all the countries we work in. We've had more engagement with the WWF office. In some countries than in others and Mexico is a great example in Mexico the WWF office. Peace Corps. Which is the Mexican National Park Authority all three are working together very closely and climate crowd, which is a project I'm talking about is one of the projects that they work on ideally the data that we're collecting and all these countries will inform. The strategy that country office. The, last day of the workshop on Friday here and so everyone is sitting round tables, and they're having discussion based on some questions that Sean has put forward to them, and I want to share this questions really quickly, so you have some context of these conversations that are happening. John Asks them to answer. These questions in your office will be the person responsible for rolling out the climate review to people, adaptation, available and another. Who should they be the second? Second question is what form documentation do you think would be appropriate third question? What timeframe you think it realistic. Go through the review and produce documentation. Can this be accomplished in the next six months next year? Longer fourth question, who in your office will drive the national adaptation process? How will they be involved in the climate reviewed in shirt? Learning is passed on and finally what challenges might you encounter? How can you overcome these? What are your capacity needs? Of questions at their answering, and so I'm looking out at these different tables, and all these people from these different countries are trying to answer those questions and trying to figure out how their offices are going to work on these issues. All right I'M GONNA. Go back around and start listening in a bit more. Definitely nine listen and that's. What stayed here doing determined to do this home, your own try to improve. Management Team, or other calling 'cause you. Need. To mainstream will change everybody's GonNa. See it as. that. Context of. Recent achieving ejected so. It will be easy to best Lawrence love me. Do you think this crisis is worth in ongoing dialogue with the same people in these rooms to come back on an annual basis every two years. yeah, that's sort of our plan and we don't want to keep it limited to the sixteen countries that are represented here. We actually want to bring in more WWLTV countries. We have over a hundred offices and eventually everyone needs to go through a process like this. So, we hope in the future our meetings will continue to grow, and we continue to learn from one another, but yes, ideas over the next few years through twenty twenty. That will be rolling this out across entire network. Gavin Jealous Senior Marine Conservation Officer for climate change in rentals for double Malaysia. What did you think of the workshop I? I thought it was wonderful for myself. Because I'm trained for Climate Change Assessment and this workshop provide us tools on a way to make our strategies much more focus on climate change impacts. What did you think of the workshops? Structure in regards to how it was managed in the activities that you did I thought it was really fun. I thought Sean. Workshop that I've been to. It's very very detailed. You know really going to the nitty gritty of Trategy, but for this particular workshop it's Fund. That's how how the facilitators actually allow you to. achieve. Sit in jetting. Workshop identified very fun way aside from having able to command at the strategies of other countries, which actually learned from other countries. Also get feedback from about your particular strategies so from that particular platform. You're actually enables me to hey. Things that I need to go back and learn about it and also hails so lend from other. Countries I like it a lot this particular structure. Hit after we are back from our trip to Kenya in I'm back here with Sean, Martin and I. I just want to give my observations about that workshop I feel really lucky. That I got to go there in person and talk to all these folks in witness what they were doing. Some takeaways from the workshop for me is that I just thought there was a lot of positive energy I've been to. To plenty of workshops where people are checking out halfway through the workshop I think a lot of WWF staff were curious on what was going to happen at this workshop, and I got to interview them at the beginning, but I think enthusiasm maintained throughout the the entire workshop and actually adapting conservation. It's not easy. There's not a lot of guidance on that and I think that the people participating this workshop. Think at the end of it really felt they had some practical advice that came out of it. I think they really liked the structure that you set up for the independent of the content is just how you kept. People engaged that that was very innovative in so I well done Sean. I'm curious your thoughts on what happened at that workshop? Yeah, going back and listening to some of the interviews you did I did notice a lot of people were seeing seeming to have a good time and I've been to my fair share of boring workshops and I just noticed that if. People aren't engaged in having fun at workshops. They're not motivated to go back and move forward so I worked very long and hard to make sure that you know. We used long breaks and had toys at their tables and most have very few presentations. A lot of it was interactive discussion, and that's all by design to make sure that people are enthused and motivated in a you know went home and try out the process. I'm also was really pleased with how we came up with some six essential elements of climate, smart conservation, and our employing those are our strategies now. Okay, Sean so we had the opportunity to go. Go back a couple of months later after the workshop and check in with some of the participants in seeing how their journeys progressing. So what's going on with that? Yeah, so first. We're going to hear from Melissa the cock from WWF Norway She gave a presentation to the community on skype. Call and you'll learn about how the process went to Wf. Norway, and then you'll hear some of our staff asking questions, and then we'll hear from Nina Escobar. Montesinos and Montana Chavez from W.. F. Mexico to talk about how things have been going there. Okay, let's dive right in. I'll be quick. Feel four slides to talk through I'll get to to what what happened during that process, but it was very interactive process where a lot of people still have questions, which was very useful I am concert a couple of challenges in the discussion. The first one was that some people thought that going through the strategy strategic objectives just to change the would was just to. You know what difference does it make? If we changed the wording and I had a long discussion with him as to how the Woods Smith was actually just way of creating a win. And getting us to think outside of our normal straightforward conservation work in a win we writing goals and strategies, we just full into the habit of using conserve preserve secure, and that the word Smith was really just to make us think a bit more about what it is. We actually would trying to do with the climate lands on it. The other one that I found which was I was a little surprised at was. People seeing education as giving up on mitigation. That they put it. If still going to do mitigation, and then we do at a attention. Isn't that giving up on on the mitigation battle and it's it's really an ongoing discussion to make people understand that even if we stop all emissions today, climate change is still going to happen and was still going to have to adapt. We're ready having to adapt now, so we're going to have to adapt and future, and it's just. It's just really about having ongoing discussions with people at saying we're not giving up. Up on mitigation, it's not an either all we have to do. Both the other issue was the project based versus the mainstreaming a lot of people seem to want to to sleep into actual standalone projects, rather than thinking about how they need to integrate climate change into their existing work, so that's also an ongoing challenge that we have to tackle so what I've discovered, and I think most people will know these lessons that we can't assume that everyone gets the need for adaptation. Thankfully, there's been a lot of publicity of late about how adaptation has to happen, but. Still don't really think about adaptation in their day to day work so providing the rational for it talking them through Y Y. it's not giving up on mitigation. It's really an ongoing task. You can't assume that you can do not. Discussions and everyone's just do what we think needs to be done. Also in terms of the woods smoothing, we need to show the clear path from wordsmith, the strategy to actual implementation of climate smart strategy. that. It's not just about doing the plan putting it on the shelf and continuing business as usual. It's actually a walking the talk and the longest. Sort of listen was that again? It's not a once, or you've got to provide that ongoing support you've got to provide ongoing reminds about integrating adaptation, and that hopefully at some point down the line. Everybody's going to get it and do it but I. Think you know at one point. We sort of hope that we wouldn't have to have an adaptation focal point to promote the ongoing integration, but it looks like this position will be needed for a while, because otherwise people just forget about it and get on. On with their usual work, thank you that. Was it? Thank you, Melissa. Let's start with John. Okay thank you very much Melissa. It's John Morrison I had a question. When you get to the climate risk looking at climate risks, will you be looking at the range of uncertainty that the various climate models? The juicy ems are going to show, and are you going to be using scenario planning? Those are my two questions. It's the initial broad brush stroke that I in vision will be unlocked more superficial than that. It went. Be You know the climate risks? Predators are they pray will move north, and they will struggle to find food on this. They moved north, but they can't move most because of habitat or something like that. We're not really going to go into that. Are they going to be more Harte's release authentic more weekdays or things like that, but just to sort of very broad. Broad Brush. What what the risks Jau taking targets down the mindset? I would very be very keen to get into slower planning I think that's a really important and useful tool in climate change, but for this first broad brush stroke approach. That I'll have to have done by June next year. In fact by February next year. It's just GonNa be very sort of top level stuff. Thank you. I will take a question from the Lord will move onto Ghia. Thanks my tin. Hello, everyone! My question is around the challenges that you highlight three. The last point where you saying project based visas mainstreaming and I didn't quite hear your views on that because musk in this since it tops to basically our approach from this off can side where we are saying Kevin. Let's. A lot on projects on the ground as opposed to focusing most of our energy on the mainstreaming all bringing in the climate risks into our conservation strategies. Okay, thanks. My personal view is that as a first step. Focus on making for our existing conservation strategy is climate spot, which means we need to mainstream climate into all our existing work like the K. to program that Nydia working on. You need to think about how climate is going to pick those communities on wildlife because. It doesn't matter how much. Illegal Wildlife, trade you stop if you know the rivers can still flowing than the wildlife is GonNa go away. We take a huge risk on investment and on achieving of stated goals, if we don't mainstream climate into our existing conservation strategies, but then on the other hand, there are a lot of funds for standalone. So I, think if we have the capacity. We should certainly do that work. Because that shows proof of concept to the disbelievers about adaptation, it helps us work with governments, it helps us secure livelihoods for communities and improve presents ecosystems, but we should never sacrifice mainstreaming for doing projects we we have to make sure that our conservation strategies are climate smart in order to achieve our. Office goals, and then we can also do. Project is my personal opinion. Now that's it. That's A. Good one thankful for that response. Thank you. That was great. Thank you for the good discussions. Is exactly the kind of discussions we will have of practice. Hi, vision, in Alaska via I'm Eric The much coordinator at the Mexico high on Montana. And on the Imani Coordinator Okay I'm curious and we've talked to other countries that are going through this process and most of the time. The example is at. Maybe there's a of people just want to do this new thing i. they already are doing what they're doing. And why do they need to do adaptation and what I'm trying? This climate smart work at offers these new ways of doing things, but has anyone ever should've asked you something that you're like well I'm not quite sure I. Don't remember at the moment back kind of situations. The first thing I not with with the technical staff a when we tried to introduce these concepts and try to formalize the thinking about climate change is that they unearthed doubles or prejudice about change. So they the thing about the insert that the think about information they're thinking about A. It is not important enough to pay attention to the last, which is very president is I. Don't have enough time to take care of this, but I think we. With, a lot of effort and with a lot of time, we were with each of these barriers to start like thinking about changing more open and and open way, but we need to systematize the way we think about Mariana as an observer of this process that nells doing. Can you offer your own insight to how this has unfolded? has there been kind of any pushback? Yes, sure and yeah, definitely need leading this as the expert on here at the office and I'm more helping when it's needed the interesting. Interesting thing for me is that I'm more in touch with people on the ground with conservation area and I can see they take climate change into account because they see it every day, and it's events. They are constantly having to deal with, but they don't necessarily are making the link between that and including it on the strategic plan, and you now sits. You missed the Nairobi shop. It was really great meeting, and on really enjoyed the hot chicken gizzards that they serve during morning coffee that was. Such a great. Kid Copy I seriously. Though now. This is for both of you, though so, what has happened in Mexico since the workshop? We very well until unveiling delivered nervous material. But after that it is like with any deadline that people rest after last, so we not zapped in our next conservation staff in needing like realizing that people are not showing progress on on working with this strategic planning, and also like working on identifying specific activities related to grab a vision. So just to give you an example Doug of what would happen about a month ago, little less. We had a meeting with our conservation staff for each area to present their annual work plans, and when one of the areas started to present their work plan he, he started saying a lot of things that are not climate, smart or using the words we're not supposed to use, and you can imagine the nails eyebrows, getting higher and higher and higher. So, we we had that been the reality. Check where we're not sure if people were if there does not remembering what we mentioned before, or maybe they're just teasing a a older version of the strategy yet we talked about it. Any had this idea to address our CEO and and get he to talk to the staff and tell them. How important is as we're? We're is not only us to pushing them to do something that they don't see the point for now, but it's also a CEO. Coming from the top saying will. This is important because this will help us get to somewhere in the future, and also we not this APP that some of the staff is still saying that that got mets Martin. Work is my work and. Responsibility, so we have to work a lot with that idea. Do because it is A. And I think it happens with many would many topics I mean there's an expert of that topic. And why? Why do I have to border to start looking for information, understand the on to be very clear that that our role is a supportive role and now real clements modernisation eat is not made by a single person that knows everything and do the whole job. It is more like about be linked up these a along the whole staff. They will be able to manage tool to respond for climate change risk in their daily work because I'm not. The one who is doing they must important conservation work in India office so we. We are now like about how to deal with those are. and. We have come up with some strategies to that in that situation where someone says oh well, this is your role and responsibility and. You get Kinda dig, and maybe to a specific example with someone. Yes, I think this has to has to not with the about race. We mentioned at the beginning I mean. When you start like talk with people in terms that like make realized the Platinum smart approach is not very sophisticated that do not do not need to have a PhD. The made to read like fifteen papers. You don't need to I mean it's more like a thing of attitude than taking the right approach because this is a very. They had like no I'm not. I never meant to be as expert as you will. Because I have not invest seniors on knowing on these issues and I think the first thing to say is that is easy. Easy it's an easy thing and you are perfecting able to go that within within two months within six months. You have to do a lot of effort, but it is not like a rocket science fixing so democrats are wrong. Interpretation of we're expecting them to do at one important. Stay Up. We are working with marina and I think is very variable for a valuable for me to having heard in the in team. Is that I? Am very familiar with the concepts and with topics and for me. It's like come on. Why don't you understand? On Madonna told me now is not that easy. Perhaps we got. We have to find this way or this way and for me. I mean I do not consider myself. I'm expert. Look I'm not knowledgeable about the topic so for me now at this point is difficult to see why they don't get the. So Madina is helping a lot with that and to try to make things even simpler I mean if we want to be leaders in conservation, windy into red cadmus changes about leadership as annexation and. Technical staff were very good team. We have the. So Sean. We just heard from WWF offices on what they have done since the workshop in Nairobi. What do you mean takeaways from what we heard? Well first of all after listening to these four women. I am incredibly honored to have the opportunity to work with them and I'm really proud of what they're doing. Saving Nature is never been easy and climate changes making it that much more difficult. We've heard some of the challenges. They're facing and getting some of their colleagues on board, but they're not giving up shifting the paradigm of how we approach conservation is an enormous task and what's happening in some of the offices. Really gives me hope that WWF is moving in the right direction. So are there any common themes that emerged from these discussions that make you want to make some revisions to the process WWF is developing. Sure the one obstacle everyone ran into was using the red flag. Words words like preserve protect conserve as a way to identify where work is at the greatest risk to climate change, and we really wanted this to be a fairly simple exercises, a way to get people to question the viability of their conservation goals, and to rethink how they might make their goals more open ended inflexible, but a lot of people seem to think this was just a rather pointless exercise in semantics, so we're going to have to make some changes there to make sure that people understand why we're doing all this in the first place. But there's a mother takeaways as well I. Think we learned just how crucial support is from leadership without some kind of mandate from the top? This work is really hard to sustain, and we also heard the importance of not doing this alone. Almost all of our offices have just one single adaptation officer to try to get everyone else on board and I think one of the reasons why Mexico's been so successful is because they have a partnership, Nell and Madonna are working together and supporting each other and learning from one another. Another I think that's really important. And finally we heard from many of our staff. How much they appreciated the approach. WWF Mexico is taking. They didn't do long planning workshops. They didn't use a lot of heavy science upfront. They just had simple one our conversations with their colleagues to talk about what they're already seeing in their work, and how climate changes are affecting it so putting the conservation experts in the driver's seat and empowering them to use the knowledge already have a really powerful way to get. People started down this path. That's great. This whole process has been great I. It's been an honor for me to be part of it, but what's next, so we're going to take all this learning and I'm currently writing some guidance for our office to us, and we're going to keep learning from each other as we move forward. We're going to have regular calls like you heard from Melissa and our. Our colleagues earlier and we're going to have regular. CHECK INS to strengthen community of practice, and finally we really need to focus on what's happening with the national adaptation plans pending on how countries helped there. People adapt climate change. Naps can come yet another threat to conservation and by working with governments in the adaptation planning process. We're really hoping to create new opportunities for nature. Okay Sean so the journey of this podcast is almost over so any last final thoughts. While, the journey of the podcast is almost over, but the adaptation journey never ends I really hope your listeners whether they're working in conservation like music or an urban planning or some company, or really in any field enjoyed this episode and taken away some ideas that can use their own work and I really hope they'll share their experiences with you and your audience the only way we're going to adapt as you get out there and try stuff learn from our successes and mistakes and share what we learned with others, and that's really what motivated me to do this episode. Hate after we are back in as promised. Sean has returned for the end of this episode. We're going to touch base. And I want to hear Shawn's thoughts on again the challenges and the progress since we originally released this episode Hey Sean, so tell us what's going on now. Yeah thanks I'm glad to give everybody in update as with many of these things, it's often two steps forward one step back. With really interesting going back in reviewing the episode, one of the things that struck me was than people who have left WWF in the two years since we recorded that episode. You know so. We made a lot of progress in those offices than people for various reasons, left the organization, and sometimes they been replaced sometimes. They haven't had so some. Some momentum has been stopped because of that, and then, of course there's so many things that have happened outside of WWF that have really present a challenge for everyone like cove. It you know. We were traveling a lot to help our offices for the progress that now that stopped, and we're all just kind of rethinking are working what it means and what we really. Really need to do to keep going and making progress in a Kovic challenge world, but in spite all that there's been quite some progress than I'm really pleased up I. Did get a chance to visit our Vietnam office before Cova happened and in spite of losing. Kate temperament who was at the workshop, they have maintained progress, and they are going full force in integrating climate change into their conservation strategies. And in the US, our top leadership has really embraced this concept, and we're looking to up our game and our work around the world and integrating climate risk management into all of our strategies is really become an essential part of what we're doing. I just read our Arctic strategy and it is really forward-looking. Really embracing the idea that change is so rapid end Justin evitable in the Arctic that we really need to rethink that conservation paradigm they're. What does it mean to conserve the Arctic when things are changing so fast and you can't put the Arctic back. The way is to. Well I. Just want to give you some feedback when the episode came out especially soon after. People really enjoyed the episode and I'm not sure how you necessarily interpreted, but people really appreciated the behind the scenes aspect of what we were doing with that episode because. Other conservation groups are struggling with what does it mean to be doing adaptation and yeah, it was just. WWF. World renowned organization sharing that journey, so it was I think really appreciated by a lot of people and rereleasing it. I hope more people can learn from your experiences. Thank stugotz really great to hear. And it was exactly my purpose on a big believer in learning by trial and error, and sharing that learning with others were all making this up as we go along essentially. Essentially and we're not going to really make progress, unless were open and honest about not only the progress that we have, but also some of the challenges, so it's really good to hear that. The episode was well received Okay Sean. That is a wrap for the episode again. This is great I really enjoyed the whole process and I'm sure we'll have you on again soon. Thank you Doug I'm really looking forward to coming back. Okay and after that is wrapped. Thanks to Sean for sponsoring the original episode, and for coming back onto, walk us through the progress that has been made I hope you can learn from the experiences at WWF. Institutionalizing adaptation, it's no small task and many groups and businesses are still struggling with these challenges. Reach out directly to SEAN IF YOU WANNA learn more okay upcoming up suits talking to Dr Maxine. Maxine Birkhead at the University of Hawaii on climate and climate Justice Jesse Keenan returns to talk about some research. He's don on how climate change will radically alter the thirty year mortgage and I'll also be releasing the first of the three part series on coastal adaptation, doing with the Trustees of Massachusetts. Some great material is on the way I want to mention the work I'm doing with Simpatico Studios on. On hosting live talk shows on the climate adaptation channel. Simpatico TV right now. We're recording pilots. I've recently surpassed my seventieth episode I in talking with climate experts from around the world. It's not just adaptation renewable energy people from Asia Africa Europe. It really has been exciting to meet all these people and have conversations about the really great work that they're doing, and so if you don't think you'd be. Be Interested in being guest yourself. If you're not in the adaptation space, well, then think about coming and watching an episode you can log in free. All you have to do is give your name and email, and allow you to come behind the firewall at Simpatico Dot Com, and that C. I P. A. T. I C. O., DOT com. It's really cool. It's this new platform I'm a partner slash. Slash host for it and we are just expanding. We're trying to bring people like you into this space to learn, but also hopefully you're going to be able to share some information. Definitely, check it out links or show notes now if you're interested in highland your own adaptation work in want to consider using a podcast via America adapts reach out. I worked with many partners as you heard WWF Harvard. Harvard MIT UCLA. Maybe you want to tell your story via podcast, so let's partner also do presentations to classes. Kito presentations at conferences and I know. We're taking a break from those at the moment. Please do reach out. Maybe there's a positive adaptation message that you want to get out there. Okay, some final housekeeping. Don't forget to join the facebook page. The facebook community group. The group is private, but. But just search for America adapts and has to join privy right away. We have some nice conversations there. I kinda let my hair down and share some information that way so definitely. Check it out and on that. Note I. Love hearing from you once a week to twice a week. Whatever it is I, hear from my listeners, and they tell me how. They found the podcast episodes that they've enjoyed. Enjoyed and mainly I. Love hearing what space you're in. You know even if you're not in the adaptation space, tell me. Why do you listen to the podcast? And if you are, that is valuable information for me to or you work for Local Government working for a nonprofit organization. Reach out. Tell me your story. I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email America adapts at dot com. and. Don't forget to check out the website. AMERICA ADOPTS DOT Org. Okay adapters keep up the great work I'll. See next time.

WWF World Wildlife Fund Sean Kenya Sean Martin John Martin Philippines Sean Joyce Uganda Cape Town Doug senior director Pacific America Mongolia US Chris Oh Kanye
William Matthews

Carry The Fire Podcast

1:21:32 hr | 10 months ago

William Matthews

"Welcome to carry the fire a podcast where we explored the big questions of life through the Lens of the good, the true and the beautiful. I'm your host Dustin cancer and my hope is that through these conversations with people of diverse and divergent backgrounds and beliefs. We can glimpse the world and new through each other's unique perspectives. Hey everybody today on the pod. We are joined by William. Matthews William is recording artists, a host of the popular podcast, the litter gist and is an advocate for social change fighting against racism voter, suppression Climate Change and more inner conversation we go deep into the good, true and beautiful of star. Trek, and I tried to get William to sell me on why I should be tricky. Who discussed philosopher Rene Girard's theories of Mimetic desire and scapegoating. And William Explains why certain voices should be excluded from the conversation, not because they're conservative or liberal, left or right, but rather because they are bad faith actors, being weaponized against all of us but style. Always Ready. Cheese, never give. What he will. William Bars tried to do is he's trying to rewrite the narrative from the place of the Congress? But when he fails to realize, is that our our history will be written by by the marginalized in the people, because what the civil rights movement particularly will. Let's say the emancipation proclamation all the way to the civil rights movement what it did, and this is why black people are going to always be the thorn of the flesh to dominate white culture is we unmask. White culture dominant culture for what it really is, and now because of. Decades of of. Black people beginning to flourish beginning to to. Own their stories. Beginning to tell their stories, it's it's a Su- NAMI wave of of a black stories that have been in black resistance that is overpowering the dominant narrative myth. Of that America has created, and that's what's happening in this historic moment right now with people and the protests and acknowledging systemic racism is actually were saying no longer. Are we letting the conquerors rule? Our perceptions of reality, or they're false revisions narratives of history. Four you again, thank you for taking the time I. Really appreciate it and excited to talk to you I feel like A. Have had a few lately. Where I've talked to someone where I've heard their voice like a fair amount, feel like I kind of know them, but it's like a total false. False relationship. But. Do that in my head you're you're kind of my friend. So that's and what we've had some limited twitter twitter action. But Yeah I appreciate it. Yes the show were kind of talking about the the good that you're in the beautiful. and. just using those as lenses to look at. Everything around us, and I liked to start out asking I feel like this like a bucket for the sense but growing up. what would cause you to feel a deep sense of wonder about the world? Yeah I grew up with the very strong. Curiosity my dad. Really cultivated curiosity and me and my siblings He was constantly. Putting us in new environments environments that were made to stretch us. I mean I was I was swimming really well by two years old? and. He would take us down the street to the park in Detroit. I how to play tennis. Right or he would. He would stretch us kind of beyond like. Even some of our. Cultural values to try different types of foods on Internet. Judge it and to find things you like about it. What music was like that literature reading psychedelic group in a household that just valued curiosity and I think that was my window into. Wonder you know. Like I mean he was? He was really cultivating that as a value for you oh. Yeah, absolutely! My Dad was cultivating. Cheered curiosity beauty and wonder about God about the universe. We were a big star. Trek family too, so I mean he would like sitting down in the basement when he would like. He would be working on different things, and he would put on video tape recordings of all these old shows whether they were westerns or like little rascals Shirley Temple Star Trek. And, so I would just like soon. My Dad while he was kind of tinkering in the basement and Mike Watch these TV shows that just would like. Expand my brain and my horizons, and so yeah I think I have to give it up to my dad for. Giving me like a real sense of beauty and wonder an all. That's awesome. And it's a perfect transition into. I was going to ask you about star Trek because I feel like. I don't really know. That I know of I. Don't know any like trekkies, but I feel like you post about it a lot. Probably. No good and it. It's been like. I grew up. And I saw I would see some next generation and you know movie here there, but. I was never like way. In I think. Part of it. I didn't love the. I like the grittiness of like star, wars or something like the way that the universe felt a little more like lived in. But I think part of that is just because you know. It's supposed to be the future and star Trek and so. Stuff's cleaner or something I don't know. Like too much like button pushed about an ethics, but I remember seeing some really interesting episodes and You've been tweeting out some stuff. Some of the newer shows and just little snippets and I. I don't know I'm realizing there's a lot. A lot more there that I need to dig into so what? What draws you to star Trek? So me on it, yeah! So Gene Roddenberry. Who is the creator of Star Trek? He had a pretty unique philosophical vision of. Human history, but also our future he he was theorizing. In which humanity had overcome a lot of our baser instincts, and had put down war, famine, disease and poverty had overcome those things. And transcended them, and so he theorizes universe where our ability to lay down. Our propensity for war would actually cause us to. Want. Travel the galaxy and increase technology to explore strange new worlds, new civilizations, seeking peace and exploration. You know and so star Trek was really much a optimistic vision of the future, and especially being created in the nineteen sixties so much social upheaval gene put the first interracial cast on television. That's what Star Trek did back in the nineteen sixties had. You had an Asian American a Russian American a black woman. Of course, white men, you had you had so much diversity in the cast and crew of the original star Trek Enterprise. And and that was his point and there was. A fun little story. Nicole. nichelle Nichols who plays lieutenant you Harare was the first black female. In that role in in the Star Trek world side, no also star Trek did the first interracial kiss between her and Captain Kirk the first time on American television. An interracial couple had ever kissed own star. Trek, She had wanted to quit the show, and then she met Dr. Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King at told her. Star Trek is the only show I. Let my daughter stay up and watch, and it's so important for you to be on this show because you represent what black people look like in the future. And so she brought that back to gene Roddenberry, and that you could tell it really had an impact on them, and it pretty much became the core philosophy moving forward for all the Star Trek movies TV shows. It's the universe. That is more dealing in philosophical concepts. That's why star wars thing is interesting. Because Star was just action fantasy that's not based in any type of reality. Star Trek has has a moral guiding principle, and it's wrestling through moral quandaries. And Philosophical conundrums on the regular like that's the entire thrust of the show, so I think it was packaged a little slower and a little more intellectual which I think. If. You're into it. You're into it, but if you're not, you're like I. Just WanNa see laser fights like i. just want to see. And I think that's kind of like star. Wars kind of becoming the franchise. was just that it was just kind of mind numbing entertainment in that way, and and even George Lucas. Admit that I've seen a conversation between. Gene run very son and George Lucas kind of talking about this reality. Star Trek Star Wars very much you know. Of course. They had some themes around, but the themes. Yeah, it's more mythic. It's more almost like a fantasy. It's just. Exactly. We're star Trek Fantasy Western yes. And Star Trek well the original series of star, Trek. Has A lot of western feels to it as well. I think in terms of the format how they shot. The template of the day. And they you know they. They use that format to communicate a lot of truth and but. Yeah I. It's a frustrating thing because I think when you really look at the legacies of both. You Know Star Trek Truly Sifi. It is everything that is amazing about sci-fi. It's theorizing about a better world in future. That's unimaginable to us. Currently. It also gave us so much technology. Star Trek also so many astronauts and people that signed up for NASA. were influenced by watching Star Trek as kids. I mean the IPAD is pretty much an invention from star trek like there's so much tech actual technology part of our day to day lives, and even the modern space program was modeled after Star Trek to the point where even this new space force that Donald Trump is trying to. Push forward. They stole the emblem for. So I duNno, it's the original and and I'm in love with. I love all the shows some more than others deep space. Nine's probably my favorite, and then the next generation, original series and voyager. And then the new show star trek discovery epic. They literally shot it like a movie. It's one of the most action packed. Great story are from whole seasons beginning to end I love I. Go back and Rewatch them all the time. And then these are the car an. Is there an order that one should approach them? You know star. Trek's a hard one because it's thirty years of. Original series sorry to count next generation deep space nine voyager. Enterprise Discovery Card there are seven star Trek shows in the last thirty years, and then there's about twelve to fourteen movies motion picture film, maybe maybe fourteen fifteen when she had more than newer ones that we're kind of the Judy Abrahams renditions, which are kind of like a different alternate timeline. So it's it's hard because I. Don't know where to tell people to the. You could start chronologically I wouldn't necessarily do that. I probably would highlight this. I would say start season two of the original series go through that just these into, and then of the of the like the old. The old old ones start making start there. They're weird. They're they're so different. They're so seventies sixties and seventies and so abstract, and just the way they're shot is just kind of cool to there. I would start there and then I would start season three of the next generation. And maybe why not start the being well? There's always kind of a thing star. Trek shows are always the best, the first season or two. Okay, but usually by season three or four they they pick up so much, and that's another thing you kind of like you commit to the series, so I think if you start there and watch some of the highlights and best you can then go back and watch some of the older episodes. They were good episodes and some of those earlier seasons. But they're still trying to find their way so to speak. You could tell by like season three. It hits its stride. It was even nominated for Emmys next generation was because of how good the acting was and the storylines. Start Season Three. They're same defacing. The accident destroys nine from the beginning. All seven seasons are incredible. the voyagers the same way it's like a lost in space version of Star Trek and then I. Don't know discovery. You could start those from the beginning. Those are very well written from the beginning, so I would really I think in this time where everything feels really dark and it feels. Even sometimes hopeless I think what Star Trek is offered is at its best. It's brought a sense of optimism about the future and a sense of hope. And it has like I said help. People work through real moral conundrums and philosophical. Issues that resonate like there's a lot of teams around. Sina Phobia and around Racism a lot of the episodes and I don't know I think it's feels more relevant now than ever has, and so I'm happy that they're relaunching the whole star. Trek Franchise they've got three marshals in the works brand new star trek shows CBS's developing. On top of the two ones that are already on air. And so yeah, they're really rebirthing. The whole franchise colleges a really exciting to me. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah I feel like. My kids would probably dig it. They're like super into everything. Sci Fi and fantasy. So. have to start intimate with them my. Not The excited, but yeah. My mom wasn't the biggest fan of it. Either should watch this they are. David fused these things called sharks which are little ten minute blow things, one or two of them are animated, and now they're about to drop a new star trek show. That's completely animated. It's called lower deck's. That's about canal. Yeah, there's there's some I think kids would would really take some star trek so cool. Yeah, as I was like doing some research to talk to you today and looking through some the star trek stuff I found. Some of the Vulcan Philosophy was Gerrad like so the whole infinite diversity through infinite combinations. real into that And then this quote from Gene Roddenbury saying mankind will reach maturity in the day learns value diversity of life and ideas. ooh is good. One I've heard that before, yeah! And then this one Is In an episode? Maranda talking to spot, and she says I understand. Mr, spock, the glory of creation is in its infant diversity, and he says and the ways our differences combined to create meeting and beauty of ood. Super into that and I I, this is making me WanNa Watch. The show was Yeah I think those ideas. I don't I. Mean I heard that when I was younger been like. Cool. Like I. Know I. I was two. And a kind of gets at at some of this the way you balance, goodness, truth and beauty but I. I I was too much way too much truth. You know when I was younger and. So those differences to me weren't. It was something to to be sorted out right to figure out. What's the right? What's yeah, and also too? I think there's. On top of that, there's a sense of. We want to be heroes so bad. And Star Trek does this interesting thing of showing you? How at times you here on at times, you you try to be. The hero makes you the oppressor. And, so there's there's real like it's showing you life and truth from multiple angles rather than you know sometimes the action fantasy stuff is just about being the hero which I think. That's why psychologically we love it. A little bit more of these action packed West leaving. Westerns are like that right, but the thing. We don't acknowledge about that whole genre that our parents lived in died on that whole. Genre was enforcing a type of white supremacy in a type of rugged individualism or fantasy of that air represented of that type of rugged individualism that. Isn't healthy mindsets to carry into relationships or into a into the world, and so star trek out of a funny way of yeah, pointing those inconsistencies out. I mean. You pointed out the Vulcan Philosophy. And spock! There's something interesting about this character. Because the Vulcan, philosophy were Vulcans, the species. Were very emotional kind of out of control and primal and I think it was a vulcan mystic monk named ceramic. WHO PRETTY MUCH Decided to base everything out of logic. And this deep meditative cult like this meditative culture kind of emerged that begin to. Suppress emotions for the sake of logic, and they built a whole culture around it after hundreds and hundreds of years. An interesting thing about the spock character is he's half human. I don't know if he's the first Vulcan. have human. Because his father Serik. Married. Someone from Earth, but there's something interesting because there seems to be this, wrestle him between his Vulcan. Identity in his humanity, and and trying to find the logic in his emotions, and what his emotions can teach him, and so it's like long art that you see all through the original series you see it all through the movies, and then all the later movies and also discovery to actually picks up. Kind of origin story for Spock, and so you see it there again like now decades later. Is this wrestle between? How does one handle their emotions and also? Doing the morally right thing what is what does that? What does that even mean and so spock has constantly not just wrestling, but but maybe even learning how to integrate his emotions into his his need for order, structure and logic and. Yeah I think I always as a kid resonated with that story because I grew up in a pretty ordered. Environment, we had freedom, but my parents were very like, structured and strict on some levels and There was always the need to. Weigh, everything out, think everything throughout like my dad. We could talk ourselves out punishments. He would go if you give me a logical explanation for why you did what you did, you won't get spanked. And so I learned how to state my case very. And and my dad would push back on me and. And I think that's why love like our love like debates and kind of intellectual sparring a bit because I think ideas matter not just what we feel about stuff, and so I resonate a lot with that character of like the need to have like an ordered structure logical approach to everything, but also what do I do with my emotions that feel irrational and illogical. And So I think you know in light of that. That character was really profound. The data character next generation. WHO's this android? Who can't no emotions yet for some reason feels a need to. Be More human and want to what does that mean to be human and wanting to tell jokes wanting to have sex life and. And, so you see this android constantly going. Discovering what it means to be fully human, and what does it mean to inhabit the body and? I, don't know those stories. I feel like they've given me more of a moral compass, or just as much of a moral compass then my Christianity. In fact they'd been interplay because actually see a lot of those same values represented. In the scripture. In particular the question of how to be human. and. Yeah and so, that's kind of what that world means to me in like a visual medium or artistic medium is it helps remind it uses these stories and characters, and these impossible situations to help break me outside of you know what I think is possible, but also it helps me fully realized. Yes. We're exploring the exterior world. There's also an interior journey we're going onto and star. Trek has always been interesting to do both they show you the interior world and the exterior world, and how those things? Those two distinct journeys how the how the interplay? And I don't know that that makes sense to me a lot of spirituality a lot. Let's talk about. Spirituality a little bit than. You. are well known as one of the hosts of the litter, and which. Has A podcast, it's been kind of the forefront of. A lot of talk of deconstructing faith or face shifting But in the middle of that you guys at A. couple of episodes last season I know if it's the same season About, Christianity and Kinda wear you, guys are all. Add on it and I really enjoyed the. Episode you're just. Trying to convince. Michael that he's. He should. Keep claiming Christianity. and. I thought it was funny, but I I really liked Kind of hearing a bunch of where you were. The things that were so grabbing unit, so I wanNA talk to you a little bit about that like why? You've kind of. Can you grew up? Christian your dad was A. Pastor yeah. And I'm curious like what maybe even through the Lens of the the good, the true, the beautiful like what you? Most which lends you kind of your? Christianity operated out of as you were growing up and then. Where you feel like it is. kind of most seen through now. Like why I guess, why are you? Feel like everyone who goes through kind of some sort of deconstruction has to bail, or you decide like this is why I'm sticking around, even though it's a lot of times, a giant pile. I think I've gone around the mountain several times with Christianity. It's one of those things that I. Think is just so ingrained in me because of my childhood, my. Parents being ministry, my grandfather, being a missionary uncles, aunts who are ordained ministers like. God faith and spirituality in the Bible and Jesus are all things that have. So speak. They've been in my my consciousness like. I don't think I could remove him. I tried And so the interesting thing about deconstruction ride is well. Everyone's looks different, but for me deconstruction. Which I realized I don through several times in my life even as a kid I gone through. Some different experiences in Church in childhood or my family has that were really traumatic, and they forced us to see God in a bigger way and and it's funny, because that's where the journey always lead. It was not as much of a rejection of God which is totally legitimate I'm not dismissing that for anybody actually. I just know that that's not where. My journey fully has ever been. It's constantly been in. Seeking more like awareness of of Of God and knowing that the religious structures I was in didn't not only just didn't have a right, but they were actively engaging, got it and when I, even that phrase, the God. What is God right like? I'm thinking I'm talking about the ultimate that ultimate sense of reality, the thing that is moving slower I mean that's language out us now, but even back then and my child Predator my teenage years, I was always searching for the ultimate and constantly willing to to leave behind any any structure, any institution, any form thinking that caged dot in. I think freedom was always my compass internally in every time in church, a Catholic, a constantly ruffled up against structures that were were oppressive, her unfreezing, and so, but it wasn't just me as my family. everyone in my family has gone through their own journey with with Christianity and finding a God. Who's more, inclusive or more bigger more wider than than we thought so. Yeah, I find that deconstruction something happens multiple times in your life, not just one big. Traumatic, experience that caused you to maybe walk away from the faith forever Again, if that's what you need to do, I've always been A. Champion at least in the last six years I've always been a champion of that. You need to walk away and it's not. It's not hitting for you. Can you have every right in your conscience to walk away and to do that? But for me just never never felt that I've never done that something about the idea of God always culturally whether even in the abstract called to me. and I've always found that or felt that to be the voice of the spirit in my life. I had to realize that pain was actually the doorway into the very nature, of Scott it was like it's through discomfort that you would know the kingdom. Doubt is the doorway to faith always. Certainty is the doubt was the question of who am I wear? Am I just even matter God? Where are you like I? Don't even know you're at I. Don't feel you I feel so lost him alone and bank in the cosmos, and it's not till I. Wrestle with the Shadow. I truly can see the light. Circular, motions shower light darkness in life. You'RE GONNA. Go through that knowing an unknowing. Thirteen, UNFORT-. Learning God knowing on. What are some of the? I guess as you were like reframing What were some of the touch points that were? Bringing you back around to this. Whole I don't know what to call it. like what what things were you re experiencing or like? Seeing new is You. Think we're reading some James Cone. Theology Rene Girard? Yeah. Some of that stuff. That was kind of blowing your mind. This is this is a new way to 'cause like you're saying. It's so ingrained in new that you're feeling like I can't. I can't get rid of this. Is there a different way to? Experience it as? Well I think one of the early lessons learned with my family when I was teenager was that God was not static, and that there was always a progressive revelation. The God was constantly moving forward. I remember having talks with my mother as a teenager and I remember theorizing long before ever language for these things, but the arise into my mom. was like when when God wrote in Genesis or you know spouse come house framing about the time you know about heaven and earth in the stars being created like. He can't breakdown physics to them, so he's just using language. That would understand right to help. Bring them closer to an understanding as limited as languages I, remember talks about. Ahmed like. Fifteen sixteen right in my mom's like well. Yeah, but what about this like pushing back? and so one of the things we discovered a family together though there was progressive revelation, and so we were always open to listening to different thought leaders and people who were. Talking about God ways in which that felt true and right and good as you talk about this past and so I mean early on. It was like td Jakes. Progressive for us. Coming from the Church denomination am listening to like td Jakes tbn Christian television network was light law. Like he just had a way of explaining the Gospel that just felt bigger, right, there was guys like Rod Parsley Mark Sharona different ones. Wanting to buy them a lot of other preachers, and then as I got older. That's when I started. Reading books by Bennie I remember reading good morning, police spirit by Bennie. Hannah right after I, started speaking in tongues, and that was like a revelation. Mean I'm started serving on charismatic speakers across Rick Joyner book who wrote the final question which comes prophetic vision of of? I don't Dunno of Eskan logical in time stain, and and that just blew my mind away I ended up going to Bible school at Morningstar for a little bit because then learning the prophetic. Imperfect worship while I was there Listening to my fickle and Kansas City, the I hop, prayer movement, and the call like and I started surrounded myself with. These people who carried a progressive revelation that were kind of taking me from Gloria glorying and in the middle of that and that's you know how as well how ended up Going to. Death in hearing, Bill Johnson reading his books but also in the middle of that I was also reading. Light Greg Boyd Greg. Boyd was of big A finger for me, primarily around his whole cross, the sword, and the myth of the Christian nation in the of Christian religion, those books also got to blame that book about The heart guys relates to God's judgment. What is got judgment? Is it a punitive thing in just answering some of those questions about suffering the nature of evil? I I started getting the Greg. That open theism started really theorize. Reading that who else I think I. I discovered John Martin through that and He introduced me to brains on who also I think. Jonathan Martin actually introduced me to Rene Girard because he preached a sermon. back at his old turnabout to Charlotte North Carolina. About the peaceable kingdom, and it was based on. Rene Shorts Work I. See Satan falls lightning. And always say they're always in these major thinkers came along who kind of like maybe shifted a major core value. And I think greg boy was one of those guys with nationalism. I, think James Combs like that for me in recent years, but the thing about James Cone was I been familiar with his work as a kid because black liberation theology parts of it were taught to me as a kid and I didn't even realize so when I read Jim Komo's Oh. Oh, yeah, like it was. It was like the Black Church. Even though we were very conservative, there were still elements of some of Liberation Theology. That were injected in that. My Dad was very much. Bring some of that back in the nineties, even celebrated kilonzo and all that stuff. We were super Afro Centric, but Say James Komo's one of those people didn't Rene Girard did something that I just I thought was kind of. Well. The interesting thing is I think. It deserves real critique critiques using it deserves real analysis to look at. the work of nature art in a scapegoat as relates to Black Liberation Theology or the impact of white supremacy, because it seems to me that Rene Girard without explicitly saying it is very much pulling on the black liberation struggle as his metric scapegoat. And I know that in the recent. Biography broke his the evolution of desire that just came out lapped glass. Jere Burns on copy There's this I haven't finished a book I. Read Most of it A. There's a kind of ongoing conversation about Rene when he was in North Carolina had. Apparently witnessed the lynching. And it seems to have like up. He randomly maybe tell a few people here and there, but they can never kind of. The woman who was writing a biography about nature. She's kind of hunting down like it seems. This would be true of Rene that but nobody could very few people can really substantiate only two or three people's again. He mentioned that today, but The thing about Rene. The scapegoat that I found so Maybe explain that a little bit. Yeah people aren't familiar with yet. The scapegoat mechanism that Rene Talks Wilder's two things backup. He talks about this theory. He created called mimetic theory and medics. Siri theorizes that humans don't just mimic behavior mimic desire. And the the thrust of mimicking desire. In us is what sets up arm, jealousy, envy, and rivalry between humanity, because we begin to desire the same thing. If there's not enough of that same thing, then we enter into rivalry in that leads to scandal. at leads to community breakdown, and ultimately lead Rene argued it would lead to violence and that's where the you know. That's the mechanism and how it works well. Medic theory, but also the scapegoat mechanism and one of the things he did as an anthropologist, but also literary critic, was he? He was just reading all the great piece of literature, and he found one common denominator. Is this triangular Desire to guys or after one girl. And it creates a problem in you. Jealousy leads to Envy Envy Lisa Jealousy than that leads to rivalry. Let leads to scandal, then that leads to sacrificial violence, and so he was saying that all the best works of literature have this exact thing going on in the scapegoating thing happening and also he would argue all histories to now. Will One of things he did in the academic world, which was really controversial, was he theorized from a lot of the ancient mythologies like that like the the Greek titans, and like Poseidon and Zeus, and he actually argued that. Academia leads to read these things as like stories, Rene argued that they were actually hiding a type of hidden violence underneath them that these figures were what he called defied victims that at one point in time, somebody was you know sacrificed in order to bring peace to the community. Somebody was scapegoated than sacrifice, northern precinct piece to the community, and then in the aftermath of peace, being brought to the community, people felt like let person must have been a god, because the positive thing that happened, and so then we start telling stories about these gods, and so he kind of like. Really like through a wrench in. like academic work around These these ancient stories that world loves to praise, and then he so when he does a lot of his work. If you read the scapegoat or I see Saint Paul's lightning, he's actually going through a lot of like Greek mythology and pointing out. How these people were deified victims, and he shows it in the text and one of the things that led rene. Christianity was he said. A lot of the Greek mythology. It's only a partial reviewing. You'll see partially how person could have been identified victim, but in the story of Jesus the scapegoat mechanism gets exposed completely on across because the victim is innocent. And that's the. Feature of of being a scapegoat escape goal is always innocent, but the mob you know creates the violence they project. They're sending their blame onto the scapegoat. And then they sacrificed him in order to bring peace to the community, and it's. He was like it's an unconscious desire. That humanity does this and he was. He argued anthropologically. It's the roots of you know ancient world, though this is the way in which lead mitigated violence with each other was too creepy, sacrificial systems, and then he seen it in the scripture I like about the Old Testament about their type of sacrificial system Abraham and Isaac and Wants to kill his son. Isaac in supposedly got told him to do it, but you know renee argues actually I don't think God told Abraham to kill Isaac I. think that's what he thought got demanded of 'cause. All the other nations resumed now. It actually was angel to stop him and provided the ramp the bush. Now that story alone is, you might feel like that might feel heavy. I'd probably described it really heavy. But when you really sit on that what she realizes most of our evangelical Christian Understanding is built on the idea sacrifice, and that God desires sacrifice. Get what we see clearly in the text is while it may appear that God ordained. Sacrifice got his also seem to subvert this type of sacrificial system. And and so that's Rene argues with the ram in the Bush like. God sending Angel, to say, Hey, don't only son I. Don't are that type of sacrifice, but if you need to sacrifice something maybe start here, start with this animal, and and then ultimately we get to the book of Hebrews Fast Flow to the whole history of Israel. Excuse me, let's go to David you know. David is the first profit actually just say out of his mouth sacrifice. You've not desired. Inefficient system that way doesn't desire sacrifice at our whole idea of atoning for sin, and getting close to God was through the snake, the nature of sacrifice, the logic of sacrifice, really and when we get to Jesus and the you know what we've been discovered is this isn't the heart of got at all to the point where Jesus becomes the sacrificial lamb. To take away the sin of the world, but really it's just to expose the sin of the world, and that's why he's the final lamb slain because he's like. Hey, you don't need to good. You need a scapegoat I'll be the scapegoat, but don't scapegoat anymore. Yeah which is the big shift for a lot of people say? That the story of Jesus. And The crucifixion is the ultimate confirmation that got really really wants. A and and Gerard saying no. It's the opposite like this is this is the final thing meant to be like. This is not what it's about snow, and it's about in the book of Hebrews makes that abundantly clear Roberts years later post the. Crucifixion that you know it sets up this whole glorification of the sacrificial system only to say the blood ables and goats doesn't do. That, it's not enough and it actually was never enough to begin with, but that's what we need it. We needed the vice. We needed the blood, and that was the one thing that that begin to stand up to me with Rene Jacques once you see it as hard to unseat it. It's like Oh. We desired the blood of Jesus. We might like this is how we admit in that way. It's like Oh. This is how I crucified. Kreis, because every time I go my brother. You know every time I. Enter into blame accusation, which leads to jealousy and you're scapegoating. I am recruits. Find Christ like I desire to do this. There's something innate me live because we've Nick Desire. And we can't help something. Inside of us that that needs to mimic desire yet here Jesus comes along and says don't be like your father. The devil be like if Father Heaven was good patient kind loving. He was like you're GonNa Minute Jesus was all offering an alternative pat. He's like you're going to mimic you're human. You're GONNA, Mimic. Who are you going to mimic though you're going to mimic the satanic power, which desire sacrifice above all else, which which desires violence and and says that God uses violence to accomplish his purposes, which is what the ancient system ultimately was confirming in what are basic human nature confirms to. Or are you going to enter into a positive nemesis? As renamed call, it and be like your father in heaven, who is loving, gracious kind forgiving lays down his life for his enemies, rather than exacts punishment on his enemies. So That is a big shift from The retributive, which is another way of saying violent punishing Gospel that was given that God commanded. You know Jesus to be punished for my safety. God commanded innocent person to you like. You know to what? It's it's like when you put it. In those terms, it's actually use you sort of see how barbaric it is, and how a lot of the ancient world was ruled with that type of empire, thinking said that the conquerors win that those who are violent are the ones who shape history, or they're the ones who are. Fulfilling the will of God and actually would argue with Michael Malicious episode. Was that the foundation of of our world? Today is built on concern for the victim, which is a relatively new thing in in a on a mass scale in human history. Mostly Incheon writings weren't doing that. And Rene argues the Bible's really the only the first religious tax and the first he argues the first literary text to completely argue that the victim's consent and not guilty as conquerors would say. Yeah I think that's a huge shift that that idea because. You can look back and see this kind of imperial thinking. And I think you can see. Even after. Christianity embraces empire and becomes empire. there. That, thread of of anti imperialism of anti scapegoating can't be killed and it keeps cropping up. And it changes. The way that? Society sees a bunch of these things in ways that I think a lot of people. Don't realize that they don't give it credit for, and that's what renee argued in the academic world. He says you're so biased against Christianity that you're unwilling. You praise these Greek mythology, and but can't actually see how the Gospel Narrative actually unmasks the hidden violence that's intrinsic in these texts, which is a to blame someone for. The majority of Christianity they see is imperialistic and. When you said the winners, whatever it just. I don't know if you saw that clip of William Bar recently saying They're asking him like when people look back on I, think they were talking about when they dispersed the protesters From in front of the White House. Peacefully protesting. As. Trump is talking about supporting peaceful protesters, and then they. Drive them away with violence He's asked. You know. What do you think history is going to? Look back and think about destiny. Smiles histories written by the winners and all that is. True. And so brutal it's so brutal, and it's also not true, but here's the thing. They're trying to revert back to that type of worldview. They're trying to, and this is why what they're doing the deal. Jay is so evil because they're trying to undermine the work that the DOJ has done a good positive work whether it was working policing or prosecuting civil rights, crimes are hate crimes, and then even more recently was trying to rewrite the narrative on trump's corruption with me. Report in. You Know Roger, stone and and Flan the trying to get these people. People off what he william bars. Trying to do is he's trying to rewrite the narrative from the place of the Congress, but when he fails to realize, is that our our history will be written by by the marginalized in the people because what the civil rights movement particularly well, let's say the emancipation proclamation all the way to the civil rights movement. What it did and this is why black people are gonNA, always be thrown of the flesh to dominate white culture is we unmask white culture dominant culture for what it really is, and now because of. Decades of of Black people beginning to flourish beginning to to own their stories begin to tell their stories. It's it's a soon. Nami wave of of AH blacks stories that have been in black resistance that is overpowering the dominant narrative myth that of that America has created, and that's what's happening. This historical right now with people in the protests, acknowledging systemic racism is actually were saying no longer are we letting the conquerors rule our perceptions of reality, or they're false revisionist narratives of history. We are like we. The people are telling her stories, and we're telling them from the position of marginalized Silla William Bar. Underestimates once again is he thinks retributive power brute force power is going to conquer all, and while it may work for a time God ultimately has the final say in God's final say crucified land. Always its meaning that the marginal that the victim is innocent and the victim has oyston. The blood of the victims speak. It speaks louder the blood of. The blood of Jesus speaks louder as the scripture says in the blood, the Bulls and goats. You down the blood of Cain and Abel speaks a better word like it speaks better word, and that's the the monumental, Victoria's beautiful thing about what the Gospel but also in our current context is. You're not going to shut up the marginals. You'RE NOT GONNA. Do you are not going? There is no way in hell you're going to do it. And the fact is the GIG is up. It's the powers and principalities have been exposed for what they are so now. They're just using brute force to get away with it. Yeah, I think that's true. The idea that. There's a monumental shift that's been happening in his continue to happen and technology is part of that and. Democracy is a part of that but do. You can't. There's not just one narrative right that will know forward like it the more. That we have access to to more and more voices like the more these different voices will march forward, and in the end will continue to expose I. think that. The? The deeds that are being done to try to silence them. Yeah, but that's you see that. In the book of revelation, the blood of the saints in the Martyr's is crying out. How long will lowered right like every bar? Every person that you kill for police brutality, you raise of ten liberators or hundred liberators are thousand libraries. What I'm like every blood. Every every drop of innocent blood is spilt Speaks a better word than the word of the conquerors and you raise up. You radicalized actually. Had to learn the hard way in the middle, east of more we started, the more we perpetuated war in the mid. We've learned it, but. I think that the people have learned to I. Don't think the government has learned it yet. But I think the people of America have learned like Oh, you mean our presence in this is actually further radicalizing people because we're the purveyors of violence here. In, and the people are realizing that the people of America in mass action realize that even if the government doesn't reflect that yet, which there's only so long, we can live in that dissonance before things have gotta change whether not peacefully or violently and obviously the the gospels, pushing us towards a nonviolent resistance but you also can't. You understand it when it happens in its violent you to? To, I tell People Mike Woody. People upset about statues being torn down I'm like why are you? What are you these? These idols of white supremacy. Europe said let's our heritage. No not actually isn't because you're. You're honoring some of those cruel vicious people in our history and and I feel like the kids right now. They grew up watching Harry Potter man. They are out in the street, hunting or cruxes. And they had like they're telling this this world you know, the the the power. White supremacy is found in these monuments and we're GONNA. Destroy them all, and so we can get to Baltimore himself and that's what's really beautiful about this moment is the people cannot will not be silenced, and that's the beauty of being in my opinion black in in this country was I grew up understanding the dominant narrative, but I also news false, and knew from a very young age that the dominant script was false, just because the skin color that have I was already. Clued into another narratives. that. Did that change the way to use saw like foreign policy issues when you were younger to like. Did you equate? The way that you were treated with the way that the the country was shooting people in other places. Yes and no, because the indoctrination is so strong when I was in first grade I went to throw in Christian. Assemblies of God Prep School in Dearborn. Michigan, for like I in second grade, and I'll never forget ushered us into the gym for an assembly, and they had ROTC guy there with the American flag in balloons, like the colors, red, white and blue, and then we singing like worship songs, argh! Is An awesome God? He, you're right. You know like wild like praising the troops in the Gulf War Christian school. Yeah, is A. is it simply private school, and unlike so that nationalism your indoctrinated fairly early age, so you know Wbz Boys? He was a black scholar talks that black people in this country deal with the PLO consciousness. You're given a double consciousness, a young age where I think white Americans just have the one dominant conscience consciousness that they attribute you know everything to we. We are given kind of the paradoxical thing being black, and just going okay, we'll figure this out so I'm giving resistance also giving the nationalism to, and it's so prevailing so strong, and it looks good on TV, and you know, and it's like it's cohesive in looks good in the White House in there. They seem strong and and it's it's. It's scapegoating to like. It feels good to know the word, the good ones and we're fighting evil out there. We're we're. We're fighting evil like Jim. Falon said you know When you grow up, know you just think you're like everybody else in natick comes as we watch TV I, think he said it comes as a great shock to you when you're watching. Gary Cooper kill off the Indians that year the Indian. Like you so here you are like my dad grew up watching your Capri loving derrick cooper, but also having to understand that he was the Indian story that that that Gary Cooper would have not been a hero, Tim. He would have been his lecture. But yet. You're giving it in such a Polish pretty. Hollywood package that says you know root for this. This is the good guy. These are the bad guys and now. I feel like would argue. Entertainment media is doing is telling stories from multiple vantage points in perspective, rather than just the propaganda of the one like dominant empire scrip that Hollywood initially game listen, it's first fifty sixty years of conception now we're beginning to have marginalized peoples stories, but also to see a different angles two storeys now because. We're choosing to be more honest with our art. And that makes that's actually in a positive way, and that's why I think. A lot of the shift is happening to us. Because hip hop existed as A. As a you know a rebuff to dominant culture right now. It's funny that the one hated genre when I was a kid. Hip Hop was hated. White people hate it. Announced them on John or in the world black culture so much black culture is just exported around the world as as dominant culture now. It's just so so bizarre, and so there's there's there's reckonings in within that, too. That are happening. Barren field. Being. A will. A. Fee. Though Tread and. A little bit of a shift, but it made me think of wanted to ask this. From one of our patrons. You're talking about multiple like telling stories from multiple It made me think Air We have people on multiple sides of. A political spectrum or a spiritual spectrum whatever. And so Andrew was asking saying your quests for helping this country retrieve racial justice. World View black conservative voices. He's like Clarence, Thomas, or Kennison's at what role they have in the discourse. Is it right for conservative voices to be shot media for stating their opinion? Justice Clarence Thomas wants at to be black. One spouse, leftist ideas and democratic politics, any black deviated from the ideological litany of requisites was an oddity was to be cut from the heard attacked. This question. But I'M GONNA. Answer it because he's. Here's the reality. There's a difference between good faith actors looking to solve problems in bring solutions to problems and people who are bad fakes, actors, and I think what we need to understand the difference between good faith actors in bad faith actors, good-faith actors actually can have real genuine disagreements, but are looking for the common good for all people. Bad Faith actors are coming with extreme ideological agenda and is trying to force everyone to conform to it. We do not have to worry about black conservatives being shut out of anything because guess what they got voice on the Supreme Court like like the ones you know. He just mentioned and also one of the highest ranking views on the on facebook, our views from Kansas. The most watch like sixty five million people who shutting her voice off. She obviously clearly has a voice that millions and millions and millions of people are watching, but what it is is a lot of these black voices in my opinion, are often bad faith actors who are who are are regurgitating anti-black, talking points and blaming black people for their own victimization, rather than actually blaming the people who were the oppressors, and that's that's a real value shift, a lot of these folks, and this is all service because all black conservatives do not do this I used to be a black conservative is a black Republican I voted for John. McCain and Mitt Romney I never voted for Barack Obama ever. But you know what I never did I never scapegoated Barack Obama I. Never said he was born. Here I never called his wife in aid. I never. I never challenged his blackness. You know what I'm saying like. These are all things that conservatives did. Even some black conservatives. Did in the question? They have to ask themselves why. Why the hatred because the truth is! Conservative voices, we don't actually have multiple angles in our political spectrum. We have a binary political system in either oriented. We could do better to have multiple perspectives. I think that's a little bit what? They're trying to get it, but I think your point of. Distinguishing between good faith, bad faith actors is. Because What I can tell I. I. Don't think can't has made a good faith actor. She's not a good faith actor, and here's the thing tons of diverse views in the black coffee, logical and liberation movement traditions. There's tons of diverse views. They didn't all agree on everything. It wasn't monolith, and that's why when even hearing the words Clarence Thomas. I sh- shudder because I'm going with this man is doing is he's actually projecting his own self hatred. Hatred onto everyone else and the way that he felt because he felt like he didn't spouse leftist views. Therefore, he was shunned, so then he says this is all black people do, and that's just not true. I grew up in a family who very much voted across many different political lines I have family members like my parents. Every election almost changed up their political affiliations. My Dad voted for Ross Perot. Constantly voting for third party candidates rides. My Mom and mom and dad have voted for Republican and Democratic presidents, and so to cut like the thing is like we're super rare I think. That most people do not do that because they're stuck in I'm going to party and this is what we do, yes, and it it. I mean we're to as part because we've only got two major parties, and so it just falls in. Place and it it. Places, where you don't have that, people don't get so entrenched like you still have conservatives liberals, whatever you, it's not so much like team versus team guests. No, and here's the, and this is why the problem is because there is a real theological and political could black conservative tradition and I guarantee you that none of these people that are prominent figures on the black conservative rights are even remotely touching tradition. Are Legitimately speaking anti-black propaganda in calling it conservative. They are they are. They are. Perpetuating. Hatred and hatred of other black people and getting paid to do it by white folks. It's. It's Oh. Sorry. Keep going. No I I can't I. I, it's hard for to underscore this because like I said I I was a black Republican the the. The the Republican Party had a black aren seat. Share Michael Steele who no longer is with the party, and if you look if you ask Michael. Steele right now. What's wrong with the party? He's like they're conservatives anymore. They've given themselves over to racism and xenophobia, right, it's funny because he actually showed up at CPAC recently last year, and tried to speak, and they were shouting racial slurs at him. The Guy was the black head of the RNC. You know what I'm saying like an so this. This subject gives me extremely heated because once again. As a black person. I'm a Democrat. I am a Democrat now but. Those black I. It's like the level to which other people throw other black people in face to say what about those people they differ with you, Bro, it's so dark in so sick, and it's it is. It's deeply foil. To feel like your own. People are being used against you. But willingly like they're, they're willingly doing it and doing it for money, and then there spouting things to white culture that's just not true about black culture, just not true that all of us are on some democratic plantation. is just not true, but they needed to be to justify their own racial hatred of themselves in their own people. Sorry it that's. Is it yeah, and then the other? Part is that. It gives. The reason they're in those lucrative positions is because white people are using them as like their token. Person To be like Oh look no I. Listen to this person, and so no racist I'm not no. There's no racial problem? Eggs. To One person. Is. Writing over the lived experience that they have access to from people, the we have access to so many different. Sources and stories now, and they're writing over of it because this one person is. Getting A bunch of money to keep keeping that person for them. Yeah, it is. You know in back in slave times. There was always we we. We've white. Folks always weaponized us against us. Always. mlk Like now mlk is like people I. See all the time. In the middle of all this happening right now, taking some quote from King and being like see he disagrees with. Whatever like? Is going on right now and it's. A he his whole life, I think has been weaponized in certain ways against. Against Black people against. Poor people because. He as he went on, he got very much more vocal about concern for the poor. being anti militarization anti The industrial prison complex all like all that and. I think that's. Maybe, why he was killed when he was because that started to be the focus, and that was To anti-capitalist to. It starts coming after the money well, it's one thing to sanitize somebody's words and use it against us. It's another thing. To use living willing agents against us, and that's what a clarence, Thomas in a canvas Owens's ride like it's they're using US against us, and again it's not good faith actors who are actually wanting to enter into dialogue with their own communities to help the betterment in healing liberation of opportunities. There are people who stand on the outside of our communities who are black who will throw stones at us and hang out with all the white Republicans and be like. See just a bunch of Niggers I. told you they over there. You don't making a hero out of these criminals right like in. It's just it's so. It's bad faith actors, and the level to which white. White folks fall for the trick all the time? The unintentional. White folks Lawford all the time, and then at worse, their militias white folks who again prioritize people amplify than pay the money. Get them to come speak because they want that voice to challenge the liberation of black people and they in the it in there, too many black folks who are willing to sign up and say I'll take that paycheck for that. You know you are right. Those people are a bunch of niggers. They just need to do better in. That's their problem instead of actually looking at themselves, and what they've contributed to the oppression of black people in, so I just don't even know like. I don't even know what to do with those people other than to just ignore them. Because I'm going I'm trying to build something I'm trying to build a more just and equitable world and you know what get who's not trying to do that? CANDACE OWENS? So. I got nothing to say to her. I blocked her on twitter. Two years of I didn't want to be tagged in anything I. Don't see her post. 'CAUSE was like she's not helping chain happen. If you ain't helping I don't i. don't even want to acknowledge you and every moment I spent talking Candice Owens is a moment that I. don't that I'm not building the healing deliberation for black people that I wanna see on, and that's the, but that's the purpose of it is to could put us in situations where I have to sit on a podcast in defend. Go and say the things that I just said. Thank you for saying them I. It's gotta be super brutal just. Having to deal with? The bad actors as they are attacking your own community and. Yup An amplified all over facebook to amplify millions, millions and millions of us. Yeah I! I appreciate you talking about it because I think it is important because the reach is so broad and intense But Yeah I think that's a good word in general, though to be looking for people who are good faith actors to realize that there are people on. A wide variety of topics and disagree with each other that are trying to work for something good, and you be with someone and Everyone wants to have that conversation rather than the actual conversation of what are we going to do to stop leads, charity or how? We're GONNA. Fix System of you know. What do you think about? Tennis owns analysis of Mike. Bam the thing about some you wipe the Abrasions. Man y'All y'all be in the abstract and love talking about like, and we'll be here dislike. Can you like focus on our lives? Because that's what matters? Yet and it's hard because. It does feel like all of it is just a distraction like. I heard freaking talking about. Talking about that George Floyd, no saint or whatever it was just making my blood boil, it's like. fucking missing the entire point on purpose on purpose and weaponising, is she? She's so good at doing it. and and she so articulate doing it that it it's it's stunning, but it's also like I said it's I. Don't need a and this is the thing. At the end of the day as much as I've read and loved and studied and still do study. If I need a theology to tell me how to love how to be treasurer. WHO GETS DIGGITY and who doesn't get dignity I think. That's actually the real part man. I think it really is because all those things at their best are pointing us to do the actual work of loving people. Teaching us to do the actual work of showing up in the world and making a difference. You don't need a theology. You don't need a a a sociology need in anthropology to know that that love matters. That love is is worth giving yourself over to and worth serving people who are down out like. That in his. Here's the thing we're so western. We need it. We, have such taught to be abstract thinkers that we we think I. We do instead of actually the very thing that is embedded inside of us, knew just the hard garbage has to live and to me. The allergy led me into that place where I had to admit that I was more in the intellectual process of loving than the actual beginning of loving and. Until we can get. That defies like those questions on Mike It. It is missing point because you're trying to intellectually rationalize something rather than actually showing up and being with people who are hurting. Where's the empathy? Where's the actual compassion? Where is it? Was Brutal I think a lot of times the. David Talks about this, but basically zing like. When I was a kid, you taught me some beautiful truths, and eventually those things unraveled everything else. You taught me like there is now within. the fair that were like that's the thing that your soul was like. That's right. That's true. and. All the ships built on top of it and eventually if you let it. Will well up and. Take away all of that other stuff and. They're all of it. Knowledge will pass away. What's remain? I would argue love. I think the scripture says that too so eloquently saint pulses, you know these things remain faith, hope in in the greatest love all of it all of the. The. The extractions all the philosophies all the. They're interesting I mean we talked about it for how long it's great. But, if it ever standing in the way of me choosing love, I've got a problem. That's great man that's coming back to the of progressive revelation argument earlier like. If all those things are imperfect. Then you're going to be growing in them right? Yeah, and loves going to remain constant, but you're going to start to understand it more and more. If you just get stuck on someone else's interpretation of it from. Years ago. You missed the point. You missed the whole train, but you know we have local Charleston so. Three. Jesus. was going to ask. You have any consistent practices or habits that are helpful for you. In what sense in any sense it could be? Yeah. Could be walk could be meditating could be having a glass of wine could be like whatever it is like what? What are the things that you've found to be helpful to your soul and? I think noticing stopping paying attention and noticing. Whether, it's something beautiful whether it's something interesting someone interesting like actually paying attention in and gets lost in my head that it's actually has to become a spiritual discipline on. It's the type of meditation to stop and pay attention to something even for ten to fifteen seconds so in the art of noticing. Is massive it it. It brings me into more states. Calm and peace because there's a lot in this world that makes me angry as you can obviously tell but. With the rage that I think can is useful and can be useful cultivating. Anger rage, but also cultivating. Stillness and paying attention and quiet. On Com sometimes they use like APPs to help me do that. Meditation APPS or again it could just be. Walking and actually noticing beauty I think that's at the end of the day. That's what I want to be doing. The most with my life becoming more aware beauty. I love art and entertainment because I think there's a beauty to when it's done well, and so I'm always in wanting to engage stories that are beautiful in that. Tell the truth. And like it's like nourishing to my soul to watch TV show that's just very well done. That has poignant telling telling something truthful, even if it's hard, love it because it nurses selectively and. Yeah. I love beauty. That's awesome. What's a non? Star Trek. Example of what you're talking about. Oh I mean. Lower to start. I feel like. Head when you're saying it. What maybe I just went back and Rewatch DOUBT NAB Downton Abbey. And several other masterpiece theatre shows, which I thought were beautifully well done. thought the just the subtlety of performance writing was was brilliant, Sharp, witty, clever without being over the top. I think there's something really cunning about that type of humor. Also of these are all British examples, but the crown on Netflix is a big is a a really gripping story about Queen was. On different decades of her life and kind of told fictional own. Lens. But it's it's telling the. Truth about her lifeless stories, and I don't know. There's something really honest and guttural about it also I think if you care about power analysis, there's such such an interesting thing to watch it to see how we shifted from Godot Nappy does the same thing how he shifted from monarchy's into democracies in just that turn of the century. What that did their culture I just? For an analysis of power like I realized how much. You'll thinking is wrapped up in Christianity as well as in our even here in America and in our current political. Systems. We carry a lot of the roots of that type of colonialism in so when I watch it. That's what I'm actually noticing paying attention to. so yeah, those shows I mean I love. I love comedies. Actually watch a lot of old shows to go back. I'm watching watching cheers right now. loved years. You know to dancing health sexist. He doesn't really charming which? is a different era but the cast and the chemistry of Characters brilliant I'm also what else am I watched a taxi a love Mary Tyler. Moore the Dick Van Dyke show host old black shows living single Freshman, year I've been going back through. The exits. Feel maximum. Yeah Man. I just been like things that reminisce childhood I really love to to watch and. And some there there was a beauty in simplicity to them. Some number problematic and still are but yeah. Psyche. You can't even tell you I just watched. The politician on Netflix, which is brilliant does show is incredible. If you haven't seen it, go watch the parents. They just dropped season to season. Two has a cultural and Bette midler. And it's brilliant man. It's just about this young kid. WHO's you know writing for politics, but he doesn't have moral center. As the things get away with select run for student government in the first season in for college in Indi- season to these running for New York State Senate. As it's just brilliant. and I feel like it's an accurate representation of you know a lot of our politics right now, but it's a comedy and It's just as beautiful to seven tiger. Fay's beautiful. Have, you watched veep. I loved veep. Veep was incredible. Bro, that last season of veep was so accurate. All of it was accurate with better I felt like that. Last season felt so current I was like man to idiocy, but you know what the same thing was. Parks parks and REC really showed the idiocy of our politics. And then when trump came along as like. Oh, like this isn't just like a few isolated places like. Type of like mob idiocy, which to me. The town Polynesia's overtly represented. You know in. It's silliness Yeah! I loved doll all that stuff. All right last question total secretary should have worked in earlier, but I'm just curious are you? Have you read anything on process, philosophy or theology at all? A bit, I don't. Have grasped fully to let quite articulated just because as a form of theology I haven't like. Studied at studied it I have to it. I'm more asking because I feel like it would dig it. Yeah. I I am the funny thing about me, is oftentimes I? Intuitively come to some of those places and things and think through them without knowing there's like a formal theology around in like a formal hillary on me all the time, but because I do that, even with like a actually I don't know brain things choose like you just described perfectly so-and-so's theory it on I'm like Oh, I didn't. I don't even experience. I. I'm I'm relatively aware of process theology vibe with it so far, but I don't not enough to where I could like. Let me explain to you what I do or don't. Do that right, but I should look into it more. Yeah I can. Recommend some some good starter spots, but The way it deals with. Power like God's agency and stuff is super interesting. Yeah Anyway. Kuhlman, thank you so much for for taking the time and Yeah I. Hope. We can hang some time in. The real life once the Rona is gone, love you. Know. And then you WanNa tell people where they could find out what's going on with you or. You can cut undiscovered what I do at William Matthews Music Dot. COM Or follow me on Twitter William Matt Twenty Two or Instagram William Matthews Ex I. think it is evident. Tom Is at all. Yeah. I have an album. COSMO's yeah. Download my album. Cosmos It's on Apple Music spotify Yeah Donald. My Music List helped me out. Independent artists. All right man cheers. If you! Can Trust Even. If you have a moment today. It would help ton if you leave us a review on Apple podcasts and show this episode with a friend, be sure to follow the podcast on twitter and Instagram at carried the fire pod on my producer. Andy Laura and all of our executive producers Adam Collins Amy Armstrong. Andrew Diaz Brianna. Web Brian Wise Becker. Cameron Lane Colin Hawthorne. Denise Akita David Cobb Drew Para. Para Eric Zala gave Munis Gary Juki. Homs about honey Jeremy. Robinson just card. John Buchan. John Deere John Angle Jonathan, Clark Jordan Goodman Jordan. Everley gesture Malara Kyle. Star Look Labor Louise's Rivera Losing Rica's Marco Pidonia Mark Francis Mark Weiss Match Folks Matthew, alcon Michael, Maitland Miguel Tina Bra Nathaniel Bailey Ronald Burqa Ryan Cornelius Samantha Simmons and Wide Myers Stephen. SAUCER, Susannah Coleman Ted Riser Tiffany Pain Timothy Dwayne William. Thank you all so much for carrying the fire with me and I'll see you next time.

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Ep #127  Garrett Chumley

Junior Golf Blueprint

56:10 min | 2 weeks ago

Ep #127 Garrett Chumley

"What's up junior. Golf blueprint fans apologized. I haven't content if you guys last couple weeks it's been we'll have taken the walter household the birth of our third son and we're also moving. Chaos says no. Excuse not have shows out. Can you guys on fridays. Apologize ahead of scheduled for you. Boys girls out there listening but we are back in action. I have a great interview day before merging golfers john martin. This fall gear chummy. Had a standout finished his high school career and canada below short at the very end of the season. But it's a good story to talk about here today and make sure that it if you're listening to the show that you're supporting the show bus describing leave us a review and it all social media at that walter. Pj to let them know that you're listening and what you like what you wanna hear if you have a story or if you know somebody that wants to be on the show. I'm semi message. Won't get them out. Here get among shows talking about how we can best get you guys to the finish line of play high school college professional golf. Whatever that is for you guys so without further ado. Let's get into the show with garrick and listened to his junior golf story as he heads to. Ut martin jomon today on the podcast we got my man garrett big sexy generally. I've coaching you for what about almost three years now And gary came to me. I get in. We've talked about before. But you're like the perfect scenario of lesson for me because you showed up. And you're like. I can't seventy five one lesson. Break seventy five now lesson break seventy and i'm like okay either. I've gotten a lot better as a code. I got my hands and turns out the nickname. Big sexy he's a stud so you're off to go play at. Ut martin next fall you're finishing up high school now. Is this as a senior in you. Got the road laid out in front of you now to see what's next in your game but before we start chasing down some of these rabbit holes. Let's talk about. How did you get into the game of golf. That's kind of always been the opener for me. So what was your story. How'd you get plan. Well i was about. I was in fourth or fifth grade and tate sorted. He we got a couple close so we just started hitting around the yard. And i had no thoughts at all or whatever but i mean i would just smoke the ball. I didn't know what i was doing. And then we started playing more and more than tate started playing competitive just kinda followed what he did and then and take for those. Who don't know is bigger brother. Who ducked us today and didn't wanna come hang out with us on the podcast but that's fine. We'll put him on later. We'll harass him later. Maybe he'll listen. Pride not So take you kind of just like one day go seems like fun and just walking around and then so it sounds like take got into competitive golf before you right and so what's You know what what was your catalyst to playing competitive golf in well. I i would say pretty good like even when i first started i was never really bad. Gulf firming when i first started shooting mid forties really yeah i had no idea what was doing so then dad mama man you could really pursue this all right so you you've never really known the struggle of like was like she seventy nine holes. I think my first tournament ever shot fifty three. Oh my god. that's crazy. that's hilarious. Yeah and so. Obviously there's a little bit of a bug. Dan at that point realizing that you kind of have a little bit of natural talent for the game in in in learning how to kind of get around the golf course and what have you What other sports did you play up into that point. I mean what was your leisure wheels house. well baseball. I was fool into baseball. Even when i first started playing golf but i i was good at baseball but i don't know i just didn't like it. I mean i would go out there and play. But i never really had a liking for when i would play so when i didn't make the baseball team. Sixth grade year olds. Like forget that. I'll i'll stick with gulf looking for it was perfectly excuse and you know there's there's a i mean. This is more for the people listening. But there's always been talk about early specialization. Right should kids at a young age. Play only once board especially the sport like golf where one direction constantly constantly constantly and and and you're you're an all around athlete you got plenty of talent to pick up sport. Be okay at it. But the thing that i always tell parents let them let the kid kind of dictate the drive right and and your parents are very awesome at being hands off right even from day one it was like they dumped you off with me and then just went and sat in the car and i don't think they've even watched me teach you for like i don't think they've seen a minute of our lessons. Now actually i think about that But at the same time different relationships work for different people. But when you were coming up through the junior golf ranks what you know. What was your motivator like. What made you want to go to the golf course and get better. It was just almost like a satisfaction. Whenever i hit a good shot and golf. There's nothing like it like. And then almost trying to beat the course like if i didn't play good low or well one day i wanna come out the next day in trying to beat it right like just do as i can beat it. Every single time i went so old manpower was kinda motivator right. He's trying to beat the golf course. And that's a that's a good good way of looking at golf. Just general is because and you don't know this but i've used your story a lot here lately from the state championship. We just got done with this fall where you shot nine under which i think is your best to determine ever. Oh yeah so you know. I in just kind of leads into a a story that makes also poetic is that you go out and put together the best round you've ever played for two days shoot nine-under and get beat by four and coming third then you to look back at the history of the tournament and you probably win that thing. You know nine. Add ten times except for that year and and you walked away with the you know your head held high you. Obviously you played well so there's nothing you can you know be upset about you. Played better in the second round in the first round and it was it it just another step towards the final goal for you which is to go play on television yet. So you know talk to us about that. You know that tournament that day you know. What was it like when you put together this this too great today showing and it wasn't enough at the end of the day to get the gold medal. Like how did you feel i. I wasn't necessarily sad. Just because i played i played really well and i mean it was. I wish i could one. But the fact that i knew i played almost as as my ability as much satisfaction as i would have went in probably. And what was your emotions. Like on the golf course. Obviously is your last. Tournament is is the last chance to play et at a high school level of van for your team for oakland. You know what was that. Like what was going through your head that those to last two days honestly not much. I mean i just tried to keep calm. I mean there are some points in it. I was like are as pushy like astrid. Make a few more birdies or here. But i never tried to really force it and it kinda made it better. Because i was just free free in. It had no expectation going into it. I didn't try and make a score. When i was there and i didn't i didn't care about who is watching me or who was playing against i mean i just. I knew i could do it right. You're just kind of like in the moment. Yeah yeah and and that's something that you've always been good at though is you you take everything in stride. You're definitely a a more mellow rollercoaster ride than your brother. Oh yeah yeah but definitely mellow golfer. In general and in know and and that's something that like everyone to of for but even in your rows right you have highs and lows palm you get pissed and it goes up and down and i think where you do a great job of just kind of managing the wave. You don't let the wave kind of get carried away in the you know in like i said i couldn't have been more proud of you for the two days that you put together. There is obviously a swift. Kick in the go-to adds that it didn't come together for right and you know and in the guys it finished ahead of you are obviously gulford but have been competitors against you for a while now anyways so it's not like unfamiliar faces at had lightning strike a bottle foreign come together eight but what At what point in that round when you're playing like did you know where you were against the leaders like were you playing with those two items. You kind of what was going on. I wasn't playing with the leaders but some boys in my group they. I mean i was playing well so i was i i was so i shot four hundred the first day and i was i think it was two or three shots back on the lead and then eagled i hold out for eagle on thirteen and then i think that kind of got the boys in my group thinking that i had a chance so they were telling me the scores lie in who is winning and stuff. But i didn't really. I didn't really care. 'cause i knew since because lance the one one start on the front nine yup nicer on the back nine and so i was like if i can shoot pretty good low number on the back nine. Mean he might make a mistake. And i have a chance while in the gulf course For the people that aren't from here listening to the gulf gophers by wilbert right in there is like a triangle death and that back nine at basically are like the hardest four holes that quite possibly ever yet because the fairways are super tight outta bounds. everywhere are water. you have this par-five that has a fifteen yard wide fairway the entire length of the fairway. There's no telling where it's going to bounce when it hit. I mean it's like i've watched kids hit seven hundred off the tee box on that par-five just put it in play and in. I've rarely seen kids at driver there in have success environment one. So you know. There's a four hole stress there that pretty much start for after you make that eagle that you have to like survive you just get through that and is good and then obviously like you're saying the front line is where you can just go ballistic. Yeah that wide open. There's you can hit it. Three fairways over still hit the green. There's nothing stopping you so you get through the back and the leader in the front. What goes through your head next like you make the turn. What's going on well. I shopped to under on the back. And i was still two shots back. Which like you said you can go. Ballistic on the front nine. So i was like to try and go for. I mean i. When lance i think lance shot three hundred front saw but i i still have hope because the back nine can get you no matter what it's one it's one swing away yup. It's once way it's just not four-hole stretch yep but I mean. I didn't really think much about it because i was playing. I was playing good. So i couldn't really think about what lance was doing jackson. Whoever who is in front of me so right you're and that's a very mature mentality right as you can only control. You can't control what they're going do in in in i've had these talks before where it's like. You know when you play match play. You have to assume that making the next. You can't hope that they're gonna miss it. You live in a world of hoping their screw up it. It drains you at the end of the day me so it's definitely a better mentality that you had there like you said is like you didn't have time or the energy focus on that. You just have to stay to your mission ahead. Yup right and so you know all things wrap up you finished third when you look back now at your junior golf career right in. You have multiple wins. You've won multiple events now and and then things are closing in that chatter. You probably solve a summer you so plan some stuff in the tj stuff and she stuff. Now it's going to be more on your plate as neds and all the other stuff goes behind you when you look back now. What is something that you're like the most proud of from your junior golf career. I know it'd be hard not to say getting third state just because it kind of just capped off my whole high school career and also like my teammate. With me to stay and really helped a lot too because it wouldn't have been the same like without my team being there sure. Yeah i mean it's awesome having support right. Yeah and that makes makes a world of difference when it comes to how you can play. Sure no doubt but also regional here today nils. That was a good just because we had that playoff the team playoff against siegel and we now talking about that. Talk about like that. Go down because all i remember is like you get individuals and next thing. I know i've seen people hit balls again. I'm like what in the heck so honor. I'm up here trying to teach chaos happening outside the doors. Yeah so what went down there. Well i kind of got a lot of hate. Because i started offers. And like since i under i didn't. It was supposed to pour down yet. So i got through finish. Finish prime three and a half hours doesn't mean we were just flying through and so i didn't even have to play any of the rain or anything. It was cold out as soon as i finish. Started pouring down. And then they had to go out and marissa team had to go out and finish their eighteen holes. And then somehow or another siegel tied us and then we went out and a lot of buoys on my team since they didn't play well at all not gonna lie. Watch out for that bus. But they weren't really confident that i didn't. They didn't seem to confident to me that they thought they had a chance to make it. Just because they didn't play will just keeping them on the range. Just tone we get warm and stuff like that and so how did how did the playoff even work. Because i i look over the first he and there's like twenty is lined up over there. Yeah this playoff you're gonna go down. It was me and the second guy on our team and then the fifth guy on our team right so it was me. Jacob trae and then iguana gets their one two five. I'm pretty sure to and ally made a par and jake made a bogey. Actually none of it was me. Jacob carter okay. We played together. It was one are one two and three and then the fours and five played right after us but So i think we were one over after our first three finished first hole and then they were they might have been even after their first three and then our foreign five came up and then our four he kinda just messed up by. You didn't do well at all. Then trae or number five. He came in he made. The most glut received my life a six footer uphill left. And right now. I don't know how he made it. I was so excited. I started jovan yellen as soon as he made it. And we tied them and we went on to the next hole and then so it was like sudden. Death is still four. Count fivers everybody's score counts everybody's score counts also that they just added up. Well actually it might have been like the top four scores out of those drop one and then counts out forcing you to the next hole. Yeah the same thing again happen. Well i hit my out of bounds on the next deterred. Yeah and then. So i made. I think i still made a bogey but This to do to yet to a acre but it's not really out this is the creek. Yeah okay gotcha. Yeah but i mean. I knew there was gonna be a lot of people. Muscle hold discuss. The water is right out of bounds. Lessen the drought rain. Yeah fairways fifteen. Yeah and it was getting dark and super cold like it was news pretty rough and definitely chilly. So i made a bogey. Jake made par and pressure card apart. Two and then the rest of the guys. They just kind of blew up when the water that have no good and then Wire number four made a good on the last sudden death hole is awesome. So you didn't help the team win at all. But i mean it also made it better because like they kind of dependent on me the whole year and then point then they kind of came through and yeah it was poetic. Yeah exactly I get i get that. Yeah the It's interesting how you know when you play enough golf right you talk about like good breaks bad breaks and how that's always kind of seemed like comes around goes around tap stuff and like that example of where you you want. The individual medalist team came in and helped you close a deal for the team of stuff. And yeah it's always interesting. What can happen when you have that type of scenario because all it takes is like somebody who plays a twenty cap. Just hit two good shot all of a sudden. They're like competitive yo. Where did this come from. You never know oh man. It's crazy and so but you know it was interesting. Everything up to this point was kind of leading to the stage for you though. Right to like like when we went to knoxville. Do that june july something like that. And you lost it. And i it was june went out to knoxville. Get ready for the junior right at the junior junior. And you open up with a heck of around there and then nobody could have predicted what jack morris did. That was ridiculous insane. So you get one more bad at that though right and so this is like your run redemption for that. And what's one. Do you know where the golf course. I didn't look. I don't even know. Yeah good job way to be prepared now. What so what. What's your plan of action to be ready for that. What are you thinking about trying to do. Honestly we'll just ahead did what we did last year. Go there practice round and then come back. I think it was in the next couple days was the tournament. Wasn't it well. We went up there well in advance because we were hitting shots. Okay okay prepping for the shots you had to hit. Yeah right so we got. I think we're like a solid week. Yeah getting the shots ready for you. But it's Of course was that natural zone called. Had i not remember this. It don't matter yeah. But the The the crazy part about the golf course was like how hard firm was that day like. Things were just like berenson. Yeah i mean wish us were like i told you. Hit the flagstick. Yeah it was crazy so when you're when you're in tournament mode right. Obviously you and i went there. We're making a bunch of notes and doing a bunch of stuff. What's like what are some things that you're always looking for when you go to Of course. I try to see if i should really be as aggressive as i want to be like. If there's a lot of fours that tight if it's really would focus on is what is going to get me out of the most trouble. Iron off the tee on par four. But i still have a chance of making a birdie And that's really what i look for and and how the greens are reacted. Like a myron shots into the grain. If it's bouncing like we said or if it's spinning back and just ripping back just kind of how the courses plan right. Yeah that was. That was a unique case there when we reply on that one because that was like some next level bounce and goes crazy like i just remember sitting there going. I don't know how you are going to get away. I was doing everything. I could to make a ball spin check and not go flying over. The back and i was struggling. Which again just speaks to jack morris. Is you know shopping. Three i think yeah. He went nuts and that second round just went ballistic and that pretty much is separated from everybody. Which jackson good player man. That was you know so when you when you buy the golf courses you've played so far right. What are some of the most fun golf courses. You've had a chance to tie up at. Oh definitely the golf club in tennessee. Yeah that's your favorite ticket. That's my favorite Golf course i've ever played. It's just i've never played. Well they're not gonna lie but Ever i don't know about that so easy now. Yes yes but a tour player would shoot. Nothing at golf club probably. What do you like about golf club. It's just so unique i mean. Do you literally wouldn't expect that kind of golf. Course the where it is and then it's just like the views of it. Just that's my thing. Yeah it's just the par threes. I lo the poor threes and like you can walk across on those rocks It's just awesome golf club. Where i would play every day if i could pick a just a spot. Golf clubs the place. How would pick. But it's because of my pet peeve of i i hate the parallel fairway yes death like i never. I never liked it because it was always repetitive. Repetitive like is an easy bailout. Made you know i. It just made the golf course less Difficult but also like Characteristic you mean and there are some phenomenal golf pga but yeah there's definitely no parallels there no now but the but as far as like difficulty that that one is not high on my list honestly i like it must be 'cause i mean anytime i've ever gone there. I'm about shaking and not use that level of lap luxury to the golf club like a guy had around out there rally. You know as as a pro. Mondays are kind of our data. Go play in everybody's everybody's off but when they're not running outings we're off on mondays. We go get money. Game started whatever and one time we were out there. I think i won seven. Skins had seven birdies around the golf that day. Yeah i played lights out a phenomenal. And like i was. I was captured them from everywhere and ruining a lot of people's bank accounts and it was awesome. But allie. i've had around over there. Like over seventy five. Like really yeah. It's big i. It's easy off the tee mahboob in most holes. There's a hard tee shots. The parties get the parties are are probably the most difficult part of the golf course. Yeah like the par-four for are very horrible. Yeah i mean they not Most of you can get home in two. I've even gotten home in two on seventeen a couple of times it was like yards if Like sixteen seventeen. Eighteen are strong yet engine holes to nowhere hidden. Wanna finish well sixties. Sixteen to thirty or two forty pro box offering. Yeah it's a solid three yard like it's into the wind and don't miss right that i'm contemplating through it but being i love i love that track and the the people that have always been good to me while showed up in. It's a i. Remember the first time i was out branston. Her walk right by me and i was like okay. What then i started. Hit me but If if you couldn't pick a course in tennessee would it be though where would you play well. I'd love to play augusta. Yeah that's that's the bucket list. Yeah yeah. I don't know if that will ever happen. But if you make a master's good yeah i like to play. I'd like to play at pebble beach. Yeah i'm gonna say this tongue in cheek. I know somebody's gonna like make a comment about this. But i was underwhelmed with pebble beach really. It's it's one hundred percent about where that golf courses located. Not how good that golf course. Actually oh yeah like an outside if you feel bad in a lot of agreement with it if you to pebble beach golf horse end just painted up and you dropped it. In keynes's it's mccabe and in their very small greens. But it's a very nonchalant level. Course now you tee off one and you feel like you're at brentwood country club dogleg right par four houses down the side and kind of like this is public beach You go to tuesday. Par-five xanthi houses on the left. And you're like okay. I guess this is not really the start alice. Thinking is going to be three. You come back you make this turn to the water your your next shot and you start to see the ocean your own. I start to get this now. You play four or five and you get to six the par-five right in in in it's like you get you get on the ocean and then you start to like. I now understand the allure of this golf course right yes. But it's a hundred percent because of you're up against cliffs the oceans their these winds insane. Like i mean it was stout into the face on seventeen when we hit that par-three just like you've brutal But yeah but but that was i mean. That's take away from. That will mean it's still an awesome. Experience is still like you know while. us open's replay there that and is very surprising to me like it's not long a couple long hold does not long ago it was. I was very surprised. We'll say that when. I was watching the golf tournament on like last night. When i was sitting there watching the government i was like really if i was hitting the ball will and i was playing there. I feel pretty good score you one hundred percent alot score there. I mean this is again the torch if you can wedge will there. You're going to have a good day and in putting is the hardest part because those greens like i'm just bouncing along. I've checked that one off the list. It's worth doing it. I don't know if it's worth doing more than once for the price tag. But it's worth doing outdo advise you. What about overseas. If you had to go play somewhere. I was just thinking about that. We'll be overseas bucket list. You'd have to be like saint andrews. i think that'd be so awesome that ones. That one's phenomenal i. I had a unique experience there. Because i played six weeks before the british open. I played it with the grandstands. Really yes and that was wikileaks about that was awesome. Yes shoutout to robyn. Thank you for making that happen sir. That was incredible. Like the the the whole town. The whole that whole thing is right just base for that. Yeah it's crazy. And there's other golf courses within us and the the that was probably eighteen. Probably the scariest tee shot. I've had to hit in a long time. When i played it because the wind was that wind was actually opposite that day from wet the tournament was right so the way we played it was it was a dead into the fan for the first nine and a dead down in the second right there but the way the wind was hallen on eighteen. It was coming straight across one going towards the road. And there's all the shops in this isn't like small dollar like area like you look up that road and there's like audis beamers mercedes like all kinds of expensive cars. This road in wins. Rip into the right. And all i can think about is like. Don't go right yeah. Like i'm like oh my god this is going to get so expensive thing right. Yeah and And there's people that like stand right by. At and t. boss. There's only twenty yards from the road means nothing. Yeah and there's a there's a watchtower ver the world gulf the the What is it the world golf history of world golfer world golf science or whatever. It's called back there behind eighteen and there's like a clock tower and it's like you're eating like right at one box. I writ to aren't at that at that freaking clock. I'm like there's no. I am not going right. I don't care if this is in one fairly not dealing with this. Then i hit the the walk path that goes across one eighteen. Get a massive bounce. And i ended up in the valley. Sin with a two aren't like i hit like three fifty two iron as the down wind blowing into the road. Big bounce off the carpet. So i look like a baller down that day and i'm a driver. Yes right pitch. John mcparland the whole all that for nothing right all that worried. The funny part was my wife. Who's a collegiate golfer. She she'd content. Don't worry about nobody. You don't listen anyways. She played the wrong three times. 'cause they have all these double greens there double greens and so they they. We played it was like yellow in the way is a yellow white on the way back or vice versa. Right visits like yellen white lie and you just play the one on the way the other greens are like fifty dollars. Why here's what. Yeah so we're on fifteen no sixty one before the no fifteen is fifteen to before the royal and in i hit my shot. And she's over in the fairway. And i look over at her as your clink. And it's like a here is like a five would sound like three it or whatever like a perfect ferry would and i'm like man that's like that's a lot of clover moore were coming from. I don't know if he needed to hit that nine. Yeah pretty somebody like seven or eight and this ball flying to like this other flagstick. And i'm like i look over like this is like the third time like you played the wrong flag again and she's gypsy hits. You need screwed up so funny man the double greens got her pretty good. But that was that was interesting part because you can. I hit one hit and road. All the time. And i had like forty yards the pilot. I'm talking like. I got a full hip. Turn on that putter kit there. It was crazy but it's nuts. J. always refers regained focus a little bit the the college recruitment hustle. Right take brothers at ut martin. Obviously but we know that How much of factor that play. You wanted to go there Honestly not much of a factor at all. I mean you d morton is just. It's just where i would like to be. It's anything that i like to do is over there in. Ut martin no matter. It's just it was pretty those choice number one Yeah i mean. I'd say tape might have had a little factor just because i think we've never played together on a team. I thought it would be. That'd be awesome to play with my brother on the same college team. Sure and i mean that's the only factor i would say but so what was recruitment like then for you like like 'cause obviously pandemic was kind of going on but you know you still had your junior year before all of that. You know really kind of escalated but was recruitment. Like like who like you know. Lower school talking to you. What were you trying to like. What were some of the things that you were trying to valujet martin. Pretty much had checked all the boxes right but you know what was that whole experience like for you. Oh it was awesome. I mean just the have the like How do i say that had the like to be able to experience going different colleges in them like interesting like being arrested in me. I was just super cool. Well how many schools do you go. Check out. i went to three three to martin. Western kentucky and awesome fbi places. Rally was looking at really rally. Rally ended up western. Yeah and it was looking at austin. And i don't know if you've ever looked at martin or not. He looked at east tennessee. One the was looking at the other way but So so ut moderns leo won the bid for garrett dummies four year. Five year. stint in college. When you know when you go to morton. I've seen having your brother play there for the last four years. What are you know. Obviously you're going in there with a little bit of knowledge of who the coaches were. The teammates are your expectations. When you show up like what are you like. Where are you excited about. And whether you like not nervous but like most anxious about honestly from what. I've heard from tate what i'm probably most nervous about is the workouts but i'd say most anxious about being with a team that wants to get better. I know my team that i haven't high school wants to get better. But it's just having a level of determination and like going out to the course every single day and just having like a teammate. There with me. That'd be so awesome. That's what i'm ready for. And plus the guys that i see go to. Ut martin are like your friends like they want to hang out with you with you go eat with you do everything due to me like stuff. Yeah yeah the the workout thing for you something. We address a couple years back. I mean that's when you kinda. That's the way i think you really started. Finding your groove is when you know. I kind of like nudging said you need to like start getting after it. Yeah because there. There's some body related stuff that we needed to fake so that you could do certain movements in the in the golf swing that were strictly just from not ever doing who said yeah training What what was that. Like changing your golf swing with regards like starting workouts and stuff like that like what was that whole how that journey go for you. I mean it's been good. I think working out is just helped me. I mean my flexibility. When i'm on and off the courses so much better i mean. I can't even think about how bad it was whenever that first time when you were still legend on the cover of a newspaper so we can go back and look and see what i couldn't. Yeah oh yeah. Oh yeah take you. Based on video or patriots it took us the club. yeah all the photos could have gotten a putter. Something yeah you was it. Was it a humbling experience in some ways to because like there's probably some things that jordan screen before they like. You couldn't do gadget. Yeah so what was that like. What was that like when he was like send you through that screening process and he was like all right well. Here's kind of what you can't do well yet. Yeah it was a realization of like like this will make me a lot better. I mean it's i don't even know what really explain it. I mean it was just like it was something that i needed to do right. I had to do it. If i wanted to get a level that i am right. I mean and it's just made me so much better. I mean i think it's made me want to play golf more sure. Just because i'm i feel better when i go out and play. Golf is just like what. I like a second habit. Sure that's i was talking to jordan and we were talking about that the other day and it was like golf. Shouldn't be the the the hardest day right. Yeah that that shouldn't be the toughest part now. Obviously that's more of a recreational golfer standpoint not a competitive junior golfer to college golfer. That's your job at this point The workouts i can imagine kinda helped also refocus you a little bit to what you know. You know another avenue to success right. I mean because you were already a pretty good ball striker. We were getting insane distance bumps. you're controlling your ball flight very well so then we were all new. Always trying to find like what's the necks. Yeah piece of the next day. Yeah right and you've always had a good head on her shoulders. That's never some. That's been a concern so now all right so now. We got addressed to workout portion in. And i think this is the part. I struggle with With a lot of kids is like too. Many people don't value weren't getting the workout done. Yeah getting the sports psychology stuff done as well as seeing me for lessons in europe prime testament to being able to go work out. Do the extracurriculars if you will in if you had to If you had to be a coach in explain this to a junior golfer how would you convince them that getting in the gym getting screened and finding out where you need to improve in your body you know what would be the way you and try to convince your your best buddy to get in the gym and get after it. I mean i would just list all the examples. Managers look at the pga tour pros nowadays. I mean you don't see any of them not working out and then really use need to get ahead ahead of the game. I mean if you wanted to be if you really want to succeed in like a sport or something you gotta work overtime right and just especially in golf. I would say just gives me this where you have to work really overtime. Just grind mental grind. Everything is just a grind grind on any single party. Your body i mean you look at it. I mean golf. E think gulf is like a mental game. But it's also a physical game to insure so it's taxing on the body in in in in that. Listen no toot. My you know coaches horn here a little bit. But it's like you spend so much of your day swinging one direction right to then do things that balanced your body so that you're not you know me who didn't have this information and you walk round decrepit and like your spine bent the wrong way because you spent thirty years swing in one direction. Swing the other way. So it's it's definitely been a very valuable asset into view. And i think the workouts that you'll do when you show us college obviously contribute a lot to you what you can continue to your success and your club head speed has gone way up from we started doing the workouts like series numbers and only keep getting better. I wouldn't suggest scott stallings workout. Yes time in the near future of those did he did really he went and stayed with. I think it was him and three other junior golfers wednesday at his house and they just did anything he did right so they worked. Yeah exactly oh my gosh. I could not do that. Yeah i've i've heard horror stories of people going over there and now obviously against like it's it's all relative right so i mean like if you do it every day scott does deal but like somebody who's never worked out like what you're about to get will yeah. You're gonna like lip to the golf course that afternoon. But you know i think that's that's definitely part of part of word of the games going right. It's a power game it's a it's getting more and more athletic man. Yeah he will think gophers athletic. But i mean i've said it before. I said after coach many professional athletes in other sports hockey baseball football in all of them are awesome in their sport and struggle with golf enemy. And so it's it's people have no idea. Yeah and it. It's tough it blows my mind and it almost makes me laugh because someone who plays basketball baseball baseball players kind of get it. Just because i'd say they like golf more than football players stick a mole spores usually a little bit. Yeah but i mean. People have no idea what they're getting into if they start playing golf and i think there's it's it's a it's an element of it seems easy on paper n. Yeah but then you realize how precise the motions are like me and we're talking like what one or two or three degrees. were half. yeah we're half right of of change in. That is a very small number when he actually look at it at two hundred yards down rains at one degree off line a lot of distance. But then also you know. We're trying to control that it's tough and so it's kind of one of those ads like you gotta to be an expert in this craft. It's really horror to become an expert in it because it's just takes time and diligence ethic. That's where it's interesting for me to watch kids coming up through the ranks. The ones that are willing to put in the time and effort and energy was showing up like right now. We're doing operation thirty six here. Which is like it's mostly for beginners. But i've tweaked a lot to kids. That are competitive. High school players in in making it way more difficult by not making the target score thirty six but making the target score twenty seven and doing things like that. But it's a. It's a slice of humble pie. Man's 'cause like the one of the one of the starting points right and this is really great for beginners like you start from twenty five yards from the whole year in their program. Is you have to shoot thirty six right so obviously fuchu thirty six point five hours away. I'm kicking you in the face But i changed the twenty seven. I said okay. We're gonna play the par three because the distances go twenty five yards from the whole earth from the center fifty from the center hundred from the center one fifty two hundred and then he end up on the t box trying to break par thirty six and it's great except for i think it might be anything under one fifty that should be a par three and truthfully having our fifty should be like i'll say it should be a party but you should be getting you see it should be getting up now from twenty five yards And there was a lot of kids in the program that they went out and did this. The first time. I said twenty seven is the bar didn't pass so then i looked at them and said okay. Here's deal right. You're twenty five yards from the center of the green. You didn't shoot under twenty seven and yet you're telling me you can break fifty. Yeah i'm like not going to that math. If you shoot over twenty seven in its listen you got here in two looking at closer to like you know. Fifty early forty five converse score. That's not ideal what you're trying to tell me you're trying to shoot me. Yeah so it's been interesting in that way. In in. And i think golf is a sport now after the pandemic that has like we there were fifty million. More rounds played this year than last in golf across across the country right so there are more people playing the game now because it was the only thing that we do during the pandemic and now i feel like it's my job to like. Make sure these people keep playing right at the find ways to keep playing and that's one of them right Anyways i'll get off my now so colleges under forefront. He's still got a graduate high school. So we'll see what happens there. Yeah what what are your goals for college. I think to start my freshman year. I get be in the top five for first year and beat my brother a couple of times. I think if you think so too. Yeah i think i think just a starting five would be a good goal for from freshman year. But i'd say as for going a little farther. I'd say i want win a couple tournaments and maybe get close to winning. Ovc jim mitchell. I mean that'd be awesome right but we'll see i mean you gotta have gotta have a goal but the same time you gotta have a plan to get the goal right so a plan goals is a drain. So what are you gonna do to create that goal to become a reality. And so that's what the you know the next when you go home and think about this stuff. Is you know goals start. Maybe win when a receiver playing the oversee championship. What are the things that have to take place to make that happen right. And that's where you don you've done a great job of creating goals for yourself but then also working to strive towards him. Yeah that's something that you gotta you gotta play with right so we'll see what you can. I can get feeling about it. I definitely you can be. I mean he's on the way out he's already hanging. Let's go he's he's he's done he's not here to look. I'm going to boot right now. I can't be talking about that. So let's get to the part of the show that i know you're dying to find out. What are the activities to do outside of golf because right now you wearing a jacket that You know speaking of multiple levels of to who you are but what are some of the ways you take a break from golf because we all need one a duck on for sure and then when it's not duck season i guess fishing. I do officing in the summer but gulf has kind of my getaway place me is leg onto the golf course just hit balls chip put or anything but getting away from the golf course is definitely outdoors right. I mean i've never. I don't even know if i've ever owned a playstation tate has won but that's that Jaylen excuse not right mentally current generation. That he doesn't even own video game system ways to entertain themselves without it showed this clip to somebody. But i think you obviously spend time outside so a big part of. That's where you and. I are very similar. We've been able to bond. Is you know student coaches over the other activities right in duck hunting or something that i did with the guide service that you use for you know with them for the first time bob. Duck the few times before that In you know. It's always interesting. And i don't know what goes through your head while you're out in the field just bored senseless sometimes It's always just like when i get that alone. Time where my brain kind of drift to write what i think about what ideas come to my head in you know in so when you're out there in the woods how how is or if or if while you've been out there have you had any piff that like helped you with your golf game like where you're just kind of sitting in the blind not doing anything and then you're like how many i wonder if i have you ever like colleague. Lightning bolt moment ever happened while. You're out there goofing off. I don't know if it necessarily would be. I mean i'd say just sitting out there. Just be like i'd rather be here than sitting at home. I mean i just even though the fact if i'm bored or from Just not doing anything out. There in the blind nodes still be better than sitting at home. Make sure and also it's like the want to like just see something like nature yet and this. I don't know it's it's not a lot of people see and it's just something awesome. Tuesday i think totally take man. Watch them duck stack in those bonds. Were ridiculous but that's the most awesome thing i a nursing life But yeah it's it's a it's a it's an arena where i can sit down and kind of have the opportunity to reflect a little bit in for me. I live in a life chaos. I have two kids. Pregnant third wife with a third on the way a full-time job. Coaching plus another business in this podcast and other things related with the pg that do so my life's going thousand miles an hour every day in you know. Sit in the woods for the blind for a few hours. And just have that chance to like disconnect right and you probably appreciate that part yet but to disconnect from the world a little bit allows me to kind of like reflect and think about. You know what what what have i done. What do i need to do. Where do i need an. How's that going to happen in you know in in as you get older right you know you'll have you'll have more appreciation day. I started noticing at that time in in in in. So you know what's you'll it's always been interesting for me in was talking to you. Know my my assistant. Coach philip about this the other day because he's like how you so good at this stuff and i was like because like when i my brain doesn't shut off like they're like the off switch is when my eyes sleep that's the off switch and then awakes back at it again in. Its in in to have that chance to kind of think about all right a liked what i did here here here and here. I didn't like what happened here here. Here how do. I need to evolve that. How do i need to make that more You know how to make that better how to make that more Economical how do need to make this a better. You know a way to say something about golf swing right in in in so when you're young you know counter stuff. It's it's definitely a good chance to like. Have your brain like for fresh. Yeah exactly and so. It's it's a it's a. it's it's the best part for me about going out in the woods. I'll say that you know. It's definitely what i enjoy the most now boys are getting into it and so even crazier my gosh anyways. That's story but what we've been going after almost an hour and you know they said you you without knowing it. You've been a model story for me when it came back to the state championship. You know and it's an unfortunate thing that you had to be the story but it leaves the point of as we wrap this thing up. That golf is a game. That's about a journey right in. If you look at what happens things can be a step stone or it can be the thing that crumbles and crazier downfall and you took that in stride as just another check mark on the box of who you are adult for and where you need to be to become the golfer you want to be and so as we wrap things up right. I'll put you on the spot. And if you had put put something on a billboard to motivate or to encourage other junior golfers who were in your shoes or even kill you know from your high school team and you wanna leave a sign out there on how it you know. Know twenty four saying. Here's here's garret. John lewis close. he leaves. It's you know the area to go to college. What would you tell somebody from routine to get them. Motivated to become a golfer that you could that you are. I would say just enjoy it. I mean golf is definitely a very tough game to enjoy. Especially if you're not good but if you just kinda just take a deep breath More fun i mean people take this game and there's going hoard all day Grinding grinding but if you just go out there and just kinda free will. You'll do a lot better. I mean there's to appoint in this game. There is a point where you need to be serious but at the same time. Just don't think about it as much. That's what i would say. I mean you. Golf is definitely two ways re probably need to think about it but he also needs to be like right there in the middle like you don't wanna be like over thank. You don't wanna under usually right there in the middle and just kind of keep things consistent. Don't try something new. I mean if you're playing well like keep doing what you're doing. I mean if you're not planning we'll try something different right. There's only so many things that can go wrong. If you're hitting it will mean bad. try your way in. Yeah exactly yeah. I think that's a good point of consistency is key but also understanding your strengths and weaknesses. That that is something. That i've seen people pay attention tour by jordan. Spieth right now right if you try and change what you're good at in search for something better tiger might be the only case recent years that completely awesome instant win. Can't dole your sharpest blade in the toolbox to sharpen other blades. You have to keep the late gotcha to where you're at starbucks with your great job. The ball state a great driver for your opportunities makes lettuce worded. If you're a great pleasure to drive day wait for those opportunities in capital right. Not threatened to get better at. Don't take away the one they don't forget about the ones that made you so. That's a great point of vice way to wrap things up garett. Enter your comedy. Hopefully we can have you on again after you do some cool stuff at ut. Martin hope to awesome.

Golf Ut martin baseball lance tate martin jomon jack morris gulf gophers walter siegel Jacob trae Jacob carter jovan yellen garrett knoxville john martin golf pga pebble beach
Episode 257 - Tech In The Genes

TechtalkRadio

55:38 min | 1 year ago

Episode 257 - Tech In The Genes

"The following program is produced by the Talk Radio Network. This is tech. Talk Radio. I maybe Taylor. I'm Justin. LemMe we other show that talked about computers eaters technology and the Internet. Good to see again. Yeah man how you doing good doing good. It was great you got a chance to come visit Pueblo. Get Out of the the snow of you know what I gotta say. It was actually pretty freaking cold. I mean compared compared to Denver. I mean yes I know. Denver Colorado's a pretty cold plays as. Yeah and all that but like I was visiting with you. We were outside talking for a while. And I didn't have a jacket on and I was shivering. Yeah shivering it has. It's felt colder. Yeah fifty degrees and in Denver fifty degrees like hey. I'm going to wear shorts. Did you get a chance to to do anything while you're here to E.. Jeez I don't want to do that. We got to all my gosh. It's been so long since I mean it took me like two high school days the original grinder and then the best part was we got the Ranch Bacon fries. Oh those are so good. Oh yeah and my mom. My mom was there with you. Know she came and visited us to and she got to have her Pina Colada EEG. I did the I I don't know what was the flavor of the month you know for this month. Whatever mixed mixed with Pinochle Lada? It was absolutely fantastic. I gotTa tell you a funny story dot. Org or I was in high school when we would always go through the drive through and try to mess with the a drive through guy and I. It's funny but but I mean but it's funny I remember one time I went to the drive thru because you know how you can mix. EEG right you can be like you the only one I want half of this and half of that right right so I go through the drive through one day and then guys like thank you for coming to kind of take your order please and immi being like a seventeen year old. I'm like yeah I wont Pena Kalana uh-huh and I want one sex berry and one sixteenth strawberry. Did you guys like Yeah that would be one eighth Pinochle Lada I'M A and and I just kept messing with this guy. Sure enough to the place and they can't be the guys like my age like seventeen and he just like literally tosses an EEG. Out Out. At me I mean yes I got it. You know. It wasn't like it spilled all over me. It just literally took one scoop of every flavor and threw it into an EEG Cup. It was like here you go. You're not going to be with L.. But I totally messed. It was so fun now. You know I gotta say it was cool because when I was talking to your mom she was we mentioned the and then you mentioned the fries and right away your mom was like oh the fries. Yeah yeah the FRY. I like to get those with the ranch dressing up data ranch dressing Bacon bits. I was so good. Yeah it was. It was really good. We got that after we talked to you we we went over to grab that and then and then and and then we got our our flight delayed. Yeah he'll get out two hours right. Yeah it was like it was about two hours so we were like. What are we going to do because we kinda planned on? Just you know meeting with you and then just getting out of there and and going to the airport and we're like well what do we do. You know. So my mom's old work you know. She was saint. Mary's Hospital went to go. Visited Co workers and then we came back and we went to Eg's and then we ended up What was it? We stopped her on a couple of little couple or places. You didn't get a Sonoran dog or anything like that. We didn't do a store now but we went to the airport. Finally and then we sat there. And I'm like what we do. We got we got like an hour and a half before or even we begin to board and I knew that personally when I get back to Denver I had to drive home because my cars parked at the airport. But my mom. She missed her connecting flight. Because she had to go with you yes she had to go with me. 'cause she's she. Had you know she mr connecting flight back to South Dakota. She wasn't able to do you know do that so she's like well. I guess I'm staying tonight and I'm like that's fine. Yeah so I'm sitting there like what do I do. I gotTA drive home. My mom doesn't drink so I'm like well hell. I'm getting drunk just down the mob. Oh Yeah I did. I didn't really get young. I just had a couple of beers but you know it was fine. I I had a couple of beers we got we got on the plane. Everything was fine. We got back home and then we drove home and Yeah I mean we got back so you know that it's good. It was a good safe trip then I got to say. I'm impressed with with your mom because I did not know that. Honestly the tech is in your jeans because She surprised me. I thought you know I thought your mom's your I didn't know that she is all my tech from her. And she's Super Tech Savvy. Absolutely well. She's she's been a systems administrator for a healthcare company for the longest time. As long as I can remember. That is pretty cool. Yeah that is nice and it's funny because you mentioned the switch and your mom knew what you were talking. What about and I said man that is so cool? What do you mean? Oh the switch. We mean older Nintendo switch What we were talking about a switch router of sweet oh network works switch? Your mom knew what that was that was that was pretty neat. Yeah I don't my mom. My Mom's awesome so this is the final run down before before Christmas and Dan. I know of that coming up a little later on the show we're going to have a representative on from STARTEC DOT COM and. I don't know if you've ever used their products. I have the they make all kinds of products for working activity and for duplication docking. Yeah they make eggs docking stations and make like Ergonomic things. They're pretty they're pretty widespread Brad. I've been looking at them online because I want to get. I have a cooler master case. I have the half nine thirty two which is a great case but I wanNA get a enclosure so rather than plugging a USB connector and then plugging in NASD card. I actually went to get it in an enclosure so I can just mount it on a drive so when I want to access you know an St Card or something. I just plug it in. And they they have those kind of product so they're going to be on the show a little later on talking about some of their products and what they do and then Sean is GonNa join us you. I know you can't stay with us for the whole show Shirley you have to take off a little bit. He's going to join us and we'll find out what he's got going on. But you know this final rundown holidays days. Have you looked at any tack. Is there anything that you said. Oh I WANNA get this. This is what I want to get myself for Christmas because there are some good deals going on right now. Absolutely absolutely. There's a there's been a couple of different things that I've been looking at One of them is a new Three D. Printer and give me. I'm going to have to do a little a bit of research on this during the show and I'm Gonna I'm GonNa come back with the actual name for it cool but it's a new three D. printer that it's been A. I think it's called snap snap things or right. I think. Snap things away. This three D. Printer is different than anything else right. Now it is. It is a three D. Printer grinner but it's also a wood router. You know the kind that you know you you put the bit into the router and then it Kinda can do things with would write. It can do that that and it also has. So they're all modular like you can put the three D. print module onto it. You can put the wood router module onto it. Then you can also also put a laser engraver module onto it. Oh what's cool. It's a kickstarter and I guess in the past like one hundred days whatever it raised over seven million Lian dollars fixed ours. They're what they're doing right now is there are they are selling it. They're allowing people to sign up right now until the end of the year. And you're going to get five hundred eighty dollars off the printer so right now what they're saying is you can get the printer for twelve hundred dollars right after this. It's going to be like doc. Eight hundred or something like that. I mean it's it's it's GonNa be expensive but for what it does. It looks pretty us now. Is this from snap APP maker. Is that the the company that's making that what it is because it's not makers that maker. Yes and it's an all metal three D. Printer right. Yes it's all mental looks amazing using yes nap maker DOT COM. All right is it. It's those three D. Printing laser engraving and CNC carving. which is you know basically would routing? But they're all modular and you can attach whatever you need at that moment you can do you know like I said Three D. Printing. You can make phone cases you can make make Carvings on jade. Or would you can do laser engravings on all kinds of things. This is really really cool. You know I'm I'm kind of wonder you've been on the the laser printer the three D. Printer. I should say. Yeah the three D. Printer for now over here right. I mean I was the the been I think it has been just a little over year over year. How would you I mean because you you would recommend it a three D. Printer? We were talking about this this week. You would recommend it a three the three D. Printer to somebody for their kid. Because there's so much that you know we look at kids moving into technology and coating is one thing that is a great waiting for them to learn the other is applications and obviously you know. Three D. Printer is a great way to to learn how to make things for yourself. You can even make a three D. Printer with a three D. Printer. Well I mean would you say that this has been an experience that you want to continue on and thus the reason forgetting something like this. Oh absolutely I love the idea because the thing is what I like about this. The most is the fact that you can pretty much make anything now if if you don't have have if you don't have the skills to design your own items with like autocad or other things like that then you may be a little bit limited it'd but there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of items already created by other people and you can find the free items online so like if you're looking for like a door stopper or something you can find it online for free and you can print it on your three d printer so instead of going out to the store and having to buy things you can just print them that making yourself so so I'm saying I needed a doorstop or I can go on us. I've got a three D. Printer. I needed doors not only door stopper you can get a game of thrones whore door okay for all. The game of thrones fans out there right can literally get a door stopper with the guy who. He's his door whore door you can get. It's shows him. It's a three D. image of him like holding the door open or closed or open or whatever. You want to do this so you can do all kinds of crazy stuff like that and you know I printed out an entire life size replica of of of of the war or fours storm breaker from vendors infinity war right and I still have to finish it. It's it's not quite there yet but I'll finish it soon. I promise before we all die. I'll finish it great. Thanks yeah so I will get it and I will post pictures to talk talk radio but this thing is a life size replica of storm breaker. And it's massive right and it's heavy as what I was able to do that on on a three D. Printer now you did one the other day though that even I was like wow a little man delorean with the baby. Yoda from from Disney's delorean right and the baby now. What I've what I've I heard about this thing and honestly I haven't seen the show yet all right and I know that man you gotTa See Disney? Apparently they believe Disney shot themselves in the foot for about the. I want to say three million dollars because they did not have product available for the holidays for we this before. There's a reason behind that. I learned this the reason they didn't want to do the products before the holidays is because they did not want to give away spoilers to the end of this season. Okay because because so the thing thing is you think about net flicks you think about who or not my action saving Hulu. Let's just go with Netflix. All right Netflix releases. A season of something. They released it all at one time right so you can binge watch it what happens then. Is you get people at work like Omega would. Did you see the end of sewage. So yeah like no. I'm only on episode two good point. Oh Ban you got to see the end of it. It looks so and so dies and like all this appreciate it. Thank you for the entire freaking series for me I want want to become like Mo Howard and slap them upside the head. Yeah so that's why not dropping them one at a time just dropping them one at a time and then after this season's uh-huh over they're going to release the products. Okay because they see yeah right around Easter time. I guess is what they're saying the baby April stuff but but the thing is is now if you look at it this is the problem. Is this kind of technology related thing. There are so many of these knockoff Disney products right. Now that are hitting the market ebay ebay Amazon. Things like that. They're knockoff Disney. A main delorean like baby yoga baby. IOTA is the hottest thing four for this Christmas season. Right there is no official products out there. People are making a killing by making some of this stuff. Well I mean I I predict a little thing I made fifteen bucks off of it right. Somebody put up. I think it might have been sean a photo of a crocheted baby yoga. Yeah that somebody just made. It was like they're gonNa make some money on that. Totally I mean people are doing that but I mean they're cash in on it and Disney. I mean okay. Disney is Disney. I mean they may put out cease Jason Desist. But if you're descending one or two like I sold one to my friend you know like it wasn't even the thing is the fact that I need money because I put time into paintin eighteen it you know so I'm like I want money for my time but technically sure Disney owns the rights to that. You know like I get it. So if you're out they're spending or you're out there making a lot of these these figurines and you're selling them. Yeah sure you might get a cease and desist from Disney. Because you you know you're you don't own the rights to that all right so yeah we we've been asked a question and this is good since we're on this subject. Somebody wanted to since. We're the wind down before Christmas. They wanted to get more entertainment on their television. They don't have a smart TV. It has a HD report but it doesn't connect to the internet or anything like that and they said what's better Roku Apple TV. What other options are there if they want to be able to get it net flicks able to get some of these other services on one thing? I wanted to mention though Cox and comcast if you're on their cable Internet services of the Cable Services and you have Internet as well. These are actually in many cases of bundled with the receiver. So if you have to pay for the service but you can't access asset through your television if you don't have that which is going to be the best way a benefits of Roku Amazon fire stick and of course you know Apple. TV TV which is going to be the best way to go. You know I guess I think it really honestly you're gonNA is gonNA depend on. What type of ecosystem do you run in your household? If if you're an apple household I would say go with the Apple. TV because you already know the interface. You know what you're going to get with apple your know what you're going to go with apple. TV Ya Yeah I personally don't run apple in the house. I run a windows I run android on my phones. My Wife's phone everything is android my TV's android android. Tell television most most. TV's are actually. I enjoy based so I would say I personally have a lot of experience with with Amazon Fire TV now. I would say personally that I would go with android fire. TV stick because a majority of Americans Have Amazon prime membership rape and with that membership comes prime television so you get access to all of Amazon Prime's TV content whether it be originals regionals or they're licensed content that they have but Amazon prime has a lot of really really good original series. Things like sneaky. Pete eat the man in the high castle. No they don't forget the Marvelous Mrs Mazel Mazel. Yep Okay there's there's another one there so so you're going to get that out of medically with your Amazon prime membership regardless if you have an Amazon fire TV sticker not a so a lot of people that have Amazon prime time they don't even realize that it can get all of this stuff. They may be able to find a really good deal to if they become Amazon prime members on the devices themselves. Anyway I learned today. Here's a fun fact. I learned today. If you're on if you're on Medicaid I don't know about Medicare but if you're on Medicaid right or if you're on government assistance I don't exactly know how that really breaks down but if your government assistance you can actually get Amazon prime for six dollars a month. That's better than the hundred. What is it one hundred nineteen? Well Yeah Amazon. So anybody Out there who's on Medicaid and has a limited budget you're you can get Amazon prime including the free shipping the two day delivery while and all of they're Amazon fire or Amazon television stuff. Like we just mentioned you can get all of that for like six bucks another reason I do like the fire stick. Stick is because now with the older generation Apple TV and wouldn't let me do this but the Amazon fire stick did is plex and that is an APP that you get and the Nice thing is plex. Now I like it because I can organize my media. I can put my my digitize my content I can put it up on my I own plex server so you can watch it from anywhere however there now streaming television shows and movies on plex as part of the service of one. I understand you don't have to have a membership to plex to do that. I think I don't ship. I think you can create a free account and still get this content because it's dad driven so oh go driven so you have access to maybe some older movies. TV show this plexus taken some steps plex is really taking some steps to try to attract people. Because I mean they they originally came out with. Just hey this is a place to store your digital content. But now they're trying to. They're trying to combat all these other streaming services where people can get new stuff. So I get that I do like plex. I'm not a member anymore but I do like it and I tell you right now eric as a three year old kid. I mean. He's almost three years old. He's run on every single day daddy. Can we watch plex jetty lex. Because that's where he gets his paw patrol from against plex of that why I- I obtained some some some episodes. Oh that's cool. Yeah Yeah it's a great way to have your media all lined up. I take a break. We come back. We're going to talk with Star Trek. Tek Dot Com. And then we're going to get a website of the week we're going to share with you and just a bit. I'm Andy Taylor on doesn't let me find this on the Internet and Talk Radio Dot Com. We'll be right back and now back to tech talk radio everybody out there in radio and James Young from the rock band stick if you are technically challenged if you've got trouble with that computer years 'cause Lord knows I do. Do you need to listen to talk. Radio Welcome back to tech talk radio. I'm Andy Taylor. And you don't get a chance to look at a bunch of great products addicts for our tech segments as well as you know stuff that is used in everyday life when it comes to technology and company that we've heard about for quite some time time and we finally got a chance to take a look at their products and share one of those on our Fox eleven segment is from Star Trek Dot Com. Now I want. I want to tell you a little bit about what they do. But honestly the best way is to talk with a representative from the company. We've got John Martin Lee. WHO's a product category manager at Ed Star Trek Dot Com? John Thanks for coming on talk radio. Probably Andy the company is doing some amazing things when it comes to it and even audio the video which we find to be just amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about star Dot Com and what kind of products that you put out for the end users. Yeah absolutely dot Com A.. provides solutions to it pros more actively tools for for over thirty years. Now we really. Oh you do everything we can to make sure we understand connectivity technology and then we try to make that connectivity technology easy to find so whether it's legacy technology cutting edge technology We we have a full range of of product offering. We have a very strong breath and it ranges from everything from docking stations display. Adopters cable hubs and then we even play in the back office side with server rocks networking networking cables. SFP's one thing we really really strive to do is focus on quality. It's a priority for us Not only in terms of the products but with with industry certification from attack support perspective and being available to customers Monday to Friday. Twenty four hours. You know I I A moderated moderated panel at the consumer electronic show. Few years back at all about ease of use and it seemed like we had so many great products that were becoming available on the market market but One of the one of the downsides for some people were that they were just so difficult to use. You WanNa make a great product but you also want to make it easy to use. And that's kind of what star Dot Com has made. You've got a product line especially with what we looked at. That honestly is really plug a plug it in. Can you follow the basic instructions. And you're able to accomplish what you're looking at especially when it came to drive duplication for us. We looked at the USB three point O.. EA Sega one sated duplicator dock with ASAP. Great Product is that a challenge now for technology to create products. That number one can do a whole bunch of stuff enough but also again be easy to use. Yeah I think it's become very very important Customers want universality right. They want product products to be able to do multiple things and like you said be plugging player. I think you know what e USB honorable three you know that connector is making doing things More possible to one cable. That's one thing we strive with making sure that the plug and play piece continues to be easy for customers making sure or that you can. You can do all of this stuff through that one cable and regards to the drug duplicator that mentioned Yeah it's a very straightforward forward piece of hardware that really it's designed to duplicate your content and that's all it does right so you put it into hard drives you push Russia buying and your your bed. It'll do everything else for you. We work in a situation at the radio station where we have hard drives that are spinning. You know Constantly twenty four seven and so we found that over a couple of years it was extended us it was time to do updates eight and we found the easiest way to updates is with the STAR TREK DOT com product. Because you put your hard drive in put the new drive in. That's brand new. And you're able to copy Viet and be up and running in a matter of no time and have that drive copied out so that will you eliminate the ability for for Dr Failure in many cases would you say did. The changes in technology is kind of change the products offered you mentioned. You know the the connectivity usb Thunderbolt the whole bit has that kind of you do you have a product that comes out and then suddenly okay. We've got to add this feature where you tend to put all of it into that product. No breakfast a big focus for us right so we tried to design products that will meet different needs so for example someone might not want the docking station with every single feature every single port. So we'll have a docking station with a couple of ports or maybe just one one video port and other users want three monitors or maybe four monitor under so we have a wide range of products that allows the user to pick. Exactly what what they're looking for and what. They need. One of those products John's that I I thought was like amazing. Was If somebody wants a one to one type of connection like for the product we looked at but star dot com also makes products for the people glitter listening right now they probably know already but honestly that they can allow to duplicate multiple drives in an instance where there may be deploying a Larger workstation or adding more more more desks to a work a work environment that can be certainly handy of course again with docking stations we have docking stations for example that allow for you know mass rollouts right or easy Easier for mass deployment so these docking stations are designed to work in mixed environments. Whether you're using USB type A USB see again it ties back to that universality we're really trying to make it a simple as possible for for the it pro for the end user to be able to connect and not have about experience to have a hassle free experience connecting their devices. We're talking with John. Martin Leave STARTEC DOT com about the wide breadth of products. They offer for. It professionals does. Why would you say the duplicator docked that we use ways this really kind of a better solution than say software option the hardware hard where really As a standalone product which is actually really nice. Because it frees up a pc you don't need a PC or software on a PC to be able to the corner drive So it is freeing up resources you can have a couple of these duplicator setup on a work bench or in your in your facility and on just have a standard unit coning hard drives. You're also I getting the best transfer speed possible with a hardware solution versus software forever because of course your computer is using other resources to run the OS to run other applications so so hardware solution really does give you the best performance Now for anybody listening that maybe is running a an older computer. That maybe is running your your older I e drives and they finally decide you know what they've got the OS that supports it. They WANNA move to an SSD could a product like this duplicator doc help in that migration so this particular product that you're mentioning Andy is it's it's a Sada drive duplicator but again Being a provider of doctors. That's right we have Kind of these adopter enclosures that you put the hard drive in and it'll convert your your drive to an idea you drive so don't adopt. Id and you can then use an older hard drive and drop it into the enclosure and it'll it'll do the coning for you so this is really a great product for the IT Professional. Actually you no doubt is critical for so many organizations and ensuring that you know your data is backed up and protected. Is the key right now. I was mentioning in the segment and somebody had actually commented. Did receive a comment saying that one of the things I mentioned was very helpful because in the past they've heard about product where they say. Okay Yeah you just make a drive and go up big drive without even connecting it to your PC. But I did actually really say you need to connect you could connect it easily to your laptop your desktop and then do your basically your partitioning of the drive live and get it ready. So that's that's a process that some of left out and that is capable. You can plug that drive into your laptop through the dock doc and be able to do anything to prepare that dry for the data. Transfer that way you get. You can use the full partition the whole bit if you're going to a larger partition with this. This so does provide you that option. You know newer operating systems for example. We'll see that you know you might have cloned a smaller hard drive. They are allow you to access the full hard drive and then access get the full storage capacity from that. Drive your company's been around for over thirty years you offer a great warranty on this. What kind of warranty and support to our listeners? Get when they go on. They buy a product from STAR TREK DOT COM DOT COM offers free lifetime technical support. Ah Our support is available through chat through phone email. We really really tried to make sure that we're able to help Not just not just after the sale but pre sales as well so if somebody has a question and they're not sure for example if this drive duplicator is the right product for them they can reach out tests. We can ask them questions. Didn't recommend the best product but if you are having support issues. We're here to help us. Well we offer two year warranty on this product and other drive duplicator. We really stand by our the product and the support as well so refreshed you make a wide breadth of products for disc duplication Dr Docking. Even you know the laptop docking stations. Can you refresh us again on the products that are available for for these users for these type of needs to be able to duplicate your data rock. Pop docking stations are probably one of our biggest products for us We we move all kinds of laptop docking stations in terms of whether it's USPA YEA USB see thunderball three docking stations. We offer traveled walk. That can be taken with you on the road. We offer desktop docking. And we've you've actually just launched a boardroom docking station that helps connectivity in the Board Room. docking stations. Really simplify can activity liberty accurate data. You could use one cable to now. Connect here displays your peripherals and charge your laptop all through one cable and one central dot amazing and stuff but again where can our listeners. Find these products. John we are available at. CDW Amazon over were widely available in the IT. You Channel. They're easy to find the channel. I know I just ordered on Amazon. I found the it's a docking station for I use a lot of Asti cards could talker fee and video and stuff and so I just figured well why not just pull the cart and put it in and I looked it up and of course star. Trek has a product just to fit that need so I think it was gonna find just about pretty much everything you have available that can help them at STARTAC DOT com John. What a thank you so much for coming on the show? Great stuff but again we urge our listeners. Take take a look STARTAC DOT com. It's been great to talk to you. Thanks for having me. Well look forward to having you on again sometime soon. The future the meantime we'll take a quick break. We'll come back with more of Tech Talk Radio. You can find us at Tech Talk. Radio DOT COM as well as our youtube page for Tech Talk Radio. We can get a look at this product as we featured it on Cam Speed Spe- Fox eleven as well as our look that we give a little demonstration for on our youtube page as well and of course our blog blog dot tech talk radio DOT DOT com. Follow us on twitter instagram at tech. Talk Radio we'll be right back now back to talk radio. Hey what's up this. Tom Startled at. You're listening to talk. Radio they're really great and I love them. How about a copy of windows laptop? Look back to talk radio. I'm Andy Taylor good to have you here with a Sean. Thank you for jumping on. Always glad to be here. Well it's good because Justin was able to do the first or segment and then we had that interview and the way we do. This show is just couldn't be here for this segment so just kind of works out that we chance to talk to you and find out kind of what's going on in your world been busy you know or ramp up the semesters about to be finished. So students are doing their finals. And we're going to get some time off for the holidays but We got a lot. We had a lot to do before the holidays. Got It got here for our listeners. Who Don't know you're in south? Bend Indiana a video engineer for the University of Notre Dame so I do live events and it's it's a little colder there currently eighteen degrees Fahrenheit so cold and I always say oh. I love the colder temperature and I know our listeners. That are from Minnesota. Just GonNa love. This always loved the colder temperatures and then as soon as it drops to forty. I'm Gimme Gimme a blanket. Turn up the Heat Justin. Listen I deal with the call your author movie cameras and doing the whole bit crazy stuff all right so now. This is really the last show before Christmas. Christmas will hit next week. We kind of wanted to go over your Christmas list. Some things that you're looking forward to you actually created a list of things that Sean would like to have so my wife and I actually built individual Christmas lists way more detailed at her. I have I have I I have a description I have a link. I've Christ I have wanted and I've got like it's three and a half pages are you kidding. Me Is is it all tech or is it. I mean it's okay. DVD GAMING MOUSE xbox DD stuff DD stuff the stuff. That's not available yet. We'll talk about that so smart home stuff which you know. I've been in the past. Yeah now you. You've been a pretty much the against the the privacy issues that we give away when we set up a home automation system. Now with How the what what what I'm talking about here is Google nest just the thermostat? That's all you WANNA get. No No no other pieces of the Google home or Google automates just the nest. But come on. You can't tell me that you're going to get the nest setup and you're not gonNA think wow. This is the coolest thing I couldn't get a jump on on my smartphone. I'm I'm coming home. I want to set the temperature to make sure the temperature set at a certain rate. You'RE NOT GONNA go. Well wait a minute when I'm at home would have to reach my smartphone if I had a home assistant and and then I can just tell it what I wanted to do. I am afraid that's exactly what's going to happen but my wife and I both kind of bet against the Ben Against the home automation that the the Alexis Alexa. The we have a tech free room in our house That we like so we'll see but when you did at when you say tech free like like what. What is it what we were living room it has there's no TV it's got a it's connected to our kitchen so it's not completely free but it's a separate separated room that we have our couch? We have our books we tonight living space and we can see out in the backyard and we've dedicated at tech free that's GonNa so it's well we take our phones in there but there's no TV that we don't have any you know just books and a couch and we like to read out there so We've agreed to that we also don't have a TV in our bedroom. We've agreed to that We just we have one. TV in the living room. And I have my projector and stuff for the basement but I just with my job and technology. I get so overwhelmed with technology that sometimes I have to not deal with technology this guy you know this is a good thing that you and your wife are both on board with that. Because I'll be honest with you. We just recently bought a new television and my my wife likes. She's she likes to have the TV on while she's falling asleep sleep and to the TV's on all night and it's usually on like I told her a no more ID channel. Because I wake up and I'll hear sirens and don't think something's going on so now it's like hallmark and it's on all night awake up and I like it off season because I'll wake up to something funny like I love Lucy or whatever whatever but you know it got to the point where it's like a real I. I wanted to have peace and quiet when I when I was asleep. So what I found out is a a lot of the new. TV's have them and they have a while sleep timers. And I've started to use that and I'll tell you what getting a much better sleep now by setting the timer thirty thirty minutes so we can get in bed the TV can be on for thirty minutes as you're falling asleep and then it will just shut off after thirty minutes and yeah just makes it nice. Yeah I've never for the most part I've never really had a TV in my room growing up to college because you're limited space but growing up at the Department of California didn't have a TV. My Room I just had a dedicated algae and a dedicated place for rest and reading and other things that are not technology related. Isn't that is broad balanced. My life and I feel it's very important to do that because like I said every day at work is technology for me Yeah Lance same way so I feel that. I'm just going to get overwhelmed if I can talk to Alexa or talk to the Google home assistant and it's kind of weird about it. Say How goes with with the desk if I get it for Christmas. I'm thinking eight months after you get the Nessin solved solved. You'll you'll think well let's give it a try eight months and then you can use disabled Syria all my devices. I've always apple devices that thirty we do series. You have it rebecca tax that no no. That's good no I. I mean I have the option with the car plate now but I don't have it set to be notifications when I'm driving. What what did you think okay so this week? You mentioned xbox and I heard that what did you think about the big announcement this week from Microsoft saying that they were GonNa you know they did a big speech in its brand new. You know xbox generation and and what are they calling it the xbox that's it everybody thought it was going to be some kind of wild new branding name this Anna now simply xbox why not stick with what people know. What are you going to keep doing? XBOX six XBOX seven experts ten xbox while skip seven or skip nine. Nobody likes to use the number nine. Fine since MAC. Os Windows eight windows ten nine. What what happened? What does technology nine we? Nobody likes number nine and technology. Exactly what's up with nine of You've been doing this digital archiving process and we've been kind of following this along. We archiving stuff from your family. Where where are you at with that now so I got some books printed out of the pictures look great? I'm really excited about that But I just exported so I got the files copied for my hi eight tapes tapes and I and I had twenty. There were twenty two tapes ready for the web hundred ten gigs hundred and ten gigabytes of of industrial exported unconscious. So that's compressed h six five and it's still a one hundred ten gig on my gosh. That's that's that's just the high tapes. That's not any of the film stuff stuff yet. So you haven't even done that. What do you think the full projects can be at least a terrible? I have no idea but I have older six hours of film footage right. How are you going to edit that down or you I have not yet? I'm trying to go by date by by vent by traveling by family by you know my mom or my aunt or my uncle like I'm trying to figure out what's the best this way to do it and then with the stuff that it's got sound so do I want to bring in soundbites from different things so people can hear my my grandfather's voice and I think it's just like I'm I'm producing this thing and it's driving me insane but it's totally worth it for me Family perspective but it's just very time intensive you've for the project. Originally I bought a six terabyte Western digital. That's been plenty for the fire I have I am buying a raid. Set up so I could back up all my personal stuff That's Christmas because that's a pretty pretty pricey item especially when you start putting in. I think it's going to be six. Four terabyte drives so he'll have flight eight hundred terabytes of data. Now you couldn't do this. You couldn't do the seven years ago trying to do that with that size. If no now at that size it would have been totally expensive through. I could still remember. I still have it the first hard drive I ever bought i. Enclosed driver. Bought bought it on. They got bought it from Undo Egg and it was a eighty Gig hard-drive this was in disarray. Two thousand five two thousand six hundred sixty bucks. Wow and now with one hundred sixty dollars as you can get almost two terabytes out state. Yeah solid state is well technology's been crazy so now what else. What else is on your list? That I I am being selfish and asking for a new camera I an issue Nikon I have a D. seven thousand curly. So Oh camera they they stopped making it in two thousand seven. I think right But at the eyebrows considered one of the best cameras for shooting video because it was able to do higher bit rate ten ten eighty better so I asked for a D. seven fifty which is one of Nikon's Lower end full frame cameras You have the seven fifty and then you have the eight hundred eight eight ten eight fifty then one. Would somebody want a full frame over traditional Well so the the difference between the full frame and novel frame is the sense of the term full frame or crop refers to as the synthesize full offramp sensors have the same dimensions as thirty five. Millimeter film or as a crop sensor is a little bit smaller. There's a crowd factor for every every sensor has a little bit like Canon and it has a crop sensor Full frame Sony Nikon. They all have some of them have different crop factors meeting you take full frame Lens and you put it out of crop sensor. It's going to look like it's zoomed in. Some of our listeners have asked us in the past about mirror less. What is Sony has the line of murless cameras to and I know? Awesome the other STU as well. Is that a better camera. And why is that better than say maybe a cannon or the benefit of okay DSL are or a digital single lens reflex so what you looked through the viewfinder. You're actually seeing the mirror looking directly through the Lens Right. So you're seeing what the Lens sees when you take your land if you take your lens off and you look. You're going to see a mirror at an angle and so it's in that in that mirror opens shutter the mirror opens when you take the the picture and the shutter opens all set. A murless camera is no. There's no mirror so it is not called ideas lar- so when somebody says oh I have a DSR it's bureaus that's incorrect is murless. Okay as the name of the type of camera do you get older is is. The benefit is a reduction in size because the body body is more compact because there's no mirror You get a longer lifespan in the body of the camera because there's no physical components moving so except the shutter in the irs. While Irish fires in the Lens Shutter Nelson but the size compact is really the difference. Then you still have crop sensors in full frame sensors in murless cameras us. The benefit is the size the portability And then like well Sony. Sony kind of is the leader in the mirror list just because they ah wet murless I and have devoted a lot of their time and resources But there are other good murless out there but the Dow the downside to the service you look through the view finder you see in electronic viewfinder you are seeing a digitised version of what the sensor is seeing. Oh Wow okay I see. There's there's no lens to see you're you're not seeing. There's no mirror to see through the Lens. The battery life is less because you're always using electronic talk viewfinder. You're always charging the sensor to see that image. Some of them are now they're better previewing and things like that but live mode on the DS Lars flip up the mirror and show you what the sensors seeing. So that's live mode right if you shooting video the mirrors open you're exposing opposing the sensor and that's what you've got sensors always exposed. How has the murless do they? They do yeah they do. I mean the tech is the same sensor and shutter and then a lens got it different is there is a mirror on a DS. Lar- is that. Why not you WANNA stick with a like an Nikon Rather than go with the Maryland. I I have a murless too. I have a Sony. Sony murless. Okay player. I bought one played around with it. I love it. It's great low light just because it's the Sony and it's got better sensor for low light stuff I don't have a preference right. Prefer the dealer so I can see through in but the tech smaller lighter more compact. See the advantages. I prefer the body style. The Nikon's I have invested a lot of money in Nikon glass. Yeah I have old dicon glass. That is is is still in really good working condition. I prefer the color quality of Nikon's I prefer the Nikon workflow. Just I've shot Nikon for a long time. Yeah I have old film Nikon bodies that I got on when I was learning photography. So it's kind of just spend the. I always thought that was pretty funny. We've talked to Scott Kelly about that because Scott shoots offshoots Nikon and you tend to stick with what you have worked with in the past like I'm cannon Guy had cameras and obviously the Nikon family is and both are great great devices vices. Both great cameras and again most of the time. It's the person that's operating the camera. It's going to get the shot but They tend to stick with that brand well and its functionality. Elodie you give me an icon. My muscle memory is going to know. This is play this menu. This is where the minis are you. Give me a cannon. It's like I got to scroll the wheel to find them. It's a play the play button up here by my index finger. Not by my thumb. Oh by just deleted a file. Because they didn't over the ray button was right. That's kind of thing. is every cameras kind of. There's not a standard across cameras. Every company can make their own while there are standards for like USB so all the case had the same type of USB connector that kind of the stuff that's all standardized but the you can't I mean each company can do their own thing nine one of the other things on your list and I definitely want to hit this before we take break but is from Dj. I and it was pretty funny because you were telling me about This we're kind of going over the list beforehand. Some of the cool things and you tell me about go to put your smartphone on that the pocket Oslo so it so you go back to about twenty thirteen. TGI released a product called the Osmo. It was a ten eighty P camera ball camera slow ball on top of a stick look and it had joystick functionality. But you had to use your smartphone as your viewfinder connected via Wifi Bluetooth and you got got that kind of thing and it looked. Great was the same kind of camera that they used on the drones similar but it's different different style Lens and you can put different lenses on it. That can be nice so it was great. Used it news this when I first got it was in working news when I first got it. Great a lot of people loved it. It was great for Verb low-budget. Steady Cam stuff. Go get you know. They released four K.. Version they released a couple of different versions. You know all that stuff then they come out with the pocket Osmo. I don't know specifically the the dimensions there but it's tiny got a little. LCD screen on you can see you fired up. It's got a camera on it. Pulled out of your pocket. You ready to go. You're firing stabilized. Three access KIMBLE's video. What is is it now? What does it record too though Mike Christie and so you would use it just for like just need a quick shot of something on a workday if I'm if I'm out June? An event a sporting event or something and I see some cool. Just pull it out. Fire off a couple shots four K.. Video Sixty frames hundred megabits. Four point eight inches tall. It has got a one in two thirds inch sensor A Eighty degree angle of view at two point. Oh pretty sweet. And it's about the price of a older Bros about three hundred bucks. I don't know I think it'd be fun to have when go out and I got to go on a trip. I don't WanNa carry a big camera. I just all right so now if somebody came to you sean and said Because I know this holiday season we're down to the crunch here. Are they want to get a laptop. I've been asked this by four different people that want to get a laptop would I recommend and and honestly I look at okay. What's your budget? What do you want to do with it? And they tell me around four hundred dollars and seen the rise in processor from MD.. And I even use damned products. My first processor was Amdi and eventually got into Intel. What do you think about those? They're they're processors Intel N.. Amdi make computer processors. They do the same thing. They processed data. There's just technology is a little bit different in each one. The price for the speeds you get is significantly cheaper than into the infrastructure for Intel. Is there and the brand. Is there for Intel. And they've got their foot in the market more more than AMD does but you've seen with the rising and the thread river and a couple of the other MD's they're getting their foot back in the market. They're becoming me more reliable. They're coming more stable they're cheaper. They're a little bit faster. Lot of Gamers have been talking about them. And that's that's a good sign. Yeah you can't go wrong with either. Kill go wrong to buy an Intel you. You can't go wrong if you buy it. AMD If for my recommendations deployments to buy laptop look a budget deter. What you WANNA do with it? You WANNA play call of duty or not. What do you want to just use facebook and google documents Google? Docs I if your photo editing you kinda gotta look because then you got a piece it out because you can get a laptop that has has more memory or you can go out faster processor. You can nickel and dime of a computer to tailor it to war to fit your needs so you gotta just Judy Research and I do a lot of research when technology because I hate by bad tech yes nothing worse than that and I did find one that was price to ninety nine. AMD processor had ache bytes of memory it had a two hundred forty gigabyte hard-drive and it was not SSD in that kind of threw me a little There was another one that was a one terabyte hard drive and it was maybe maybe one hundred fifty dollars more. When I looked at that one that one was a fifty four hundred? RPM drive so you have to kind of really look at what you're going to do with it. Yeah you just really have to cater it to your needs and I'm GonNa push new egg here because you can put in specifics in it'll tailor it to you it'll give you options options and if you're looking to build a computer new egg has a great Computer program that you can go through and because you want we'll give you a deals and it's new. Egg has has been worth bought almost exclusively on my computer. Bart's actually bought my my server that I have here at at home at new egg and put it together now. Justin recommended a place. He's on a show back back about a year called PC parts picker and that one. That one's good too. That tiger direct is also good. Pretty good to do you live somewhere and it has a fries. I'd go into a fries but I don't have a fresno anymore to makes you said the nearest one for us is Phoenix. So yeah exactly exactly. Well listen we gotta take a break. We take a break but I want to thank you for coming on the show today. Talking a little bit about this. We'll talk next week. We'll find out what Santa did it bring and some of your thoughts is some of those products as you get a look at it. Sounds Great. I hope to hear what you get for Christmas to make you happy holidays. Merry Christmas to you and you and the MRS in Enjoy the snow. You're going to have to create that picture perfect Christmas. Thanks Andy. I'll send you pictures thanks. We'll be back with more of Tech Talk Talk Radio and now back to tech. Talk Radio Everybody this is Jerry Ho Ho Hallway and you are hanging out with tech talk radio. Enjoy my friends. How can I help you? Oh come back tech talk radio. I'm Justin Lemme Andy Taylor are you. I got a big question for you all right. Have you taken eric to go. have a picture we Santa Claus. Of Of course we have. Yeah how how did. How did he respond? Actually this year he was actually very receptive. He said Santa and he went up and he smiled. And and I got to tell you today I actually took him to our local brewery that I normally go to a what. Well no no this. Listen listen it's a neighborhood spot. It's it's literally in our neighborhood ad. I go there after work with Eric. I let him watch his tablet for a couple of minutes and I have a quick beer before I come home this today. There was a guy sitting there with a Santa head-on with with a white beard and Eric was just enthralled with him. I mean he could not stop staring then he kept going Daddy. It's it's hilarious and finally guy took notice and he walked up and he goes Ho Ho. Merry Christmas Terek arrogant know this but the guy came up to me. When Eric wasn't paying attention was like what's his name? Oh that's cool. Yeah so is this. Then he workers like Santa so yeah he he loves it. That is awesome. I I remember When they're really young? And you take them to see the Easter bunny or all. They are screaming Paul Ryan. Sometimes that could be a pretty funny but also it could be traumatizing for the kid. Well there is a website and the website of the week. Today I think is just perfect in time for the holidays that you're going to take a look at and I think you'll have a good laugh at because we've all been there. I me being a parent gone through this with my kids. You obviously with Eric have gone through this so there was a website that is called Creepy Santa Photos Dot dot com. Oh and if you go you could actually see photos of kids being traumatized by scary some of these. Santa's I tell you they're pretty darn scary. Gary Looking get creepy center photos creepy. Santa Photos Dot Com our website of the week. Perfect for the holidays. So take a look at it We think you'll have a good time. Just got to say to you and Mesa and Eric. I wish you the best The happiest Christmas and of course. Hopefully we'll we'll have a show next week but we're getting into the brand new decade so it should be exciting to see what technologies there and I think I think everybody that listens to talk. Talk Radio I think you're going to enjoy the next decade of Tech Talk Radio because we've got some changes in store for you big stuff you're gonNa love it that's it for this week's Tech Talk Radio. I'm Andy Taylor. I'm just so. Let me find us on facebook at FACEBOOK DOT com forward slash tech talkers. Merry Christmas everybody. Happy Holidays will see you later.

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