12 Episode results for "John Frame"

Why You Need Theology | Ep. 1

Daily Grace

54:58 min | 1 year ago

Why You Need Theology | Ep. 1

"Welcome to daily grace. We believe that the bible is true, trustworthy, and timeless. And we want to help women like, you know, and love God's were the bible shows us who got is. And who he is changes everything. My name is Julia, I'm Stephanie come join us as we chat about the truth of God's word in our everyday lives. Today. We're chatting about the idea that everyone is delusion. We'll talk about what the G is why it matters, and we'll even share some personal stories, but the impact the allergy has had on our own lives. We'll talk about the best place to find good theology. The bible and discuss how you can engage in theology. Even if you have never even thought about it before come on in join our conversation. Hello everyone. It's Joanna here. Welcome. And thank you so much for joining us today on our vagary first full length podcast. I'm here with my co hosts Stephanie Hello friends, and today, we're going to be talking a lot about the Allah G, but we don't want that to scare you what we want you to know is that the Allah G is for you. In fact, the is for everyone. Our sprawl says that everyone is a theologian, and you may not have thought of yourself as at the alot Jen before, but we want to talk about what that means today in this episode. So when you think of the Allah g you might have lots of ideas that come into your head. Maybe you think of seminary students at a university, or maybe you think of your pastor or maybe you just think of those paintings of these old guys with long beards. That you see in church history books and things like that. But we want to let you know that that really isn't what we're talking about. When we are talking about the allergy so Stephanie's gonna give us a little low down on what the g actually is. Okay. So the best way or the easiest way to think about it is the all g literally is the study of God. And when we talk about Christian theology. This includes the study of God has revealed about himself in his word. Another definition that I really like on the all g is the Allah G is what we think God thinks about something. That's good. And the goal of the allergy is the knowledge of God. But not just knowledge. I recently read an article, which I will share in our show notes that had a really good quote in. And if you stick around on this podcast, you'll know that a simple joy of mine is to just share really good quotes that I cross. So it said knowledge of God without devotion is dead orthodoxy. But devotion without knowledge is irrational stability. That's interesting. Yeah. So we want a couple our knowledge with devotion and love, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about that later in this episode. But I wanted to touch on what you said Joanna about everyone being Apia low chin because I remember the first time that a pastor said that I was like wait hold on. I'm not a theologian. Yeah. I didn't know that. I was. Yeah. I'm like, I'm the science person the academic my husband's the one that went to seminary like he he's probably if the alleged, but I'm not like, I'm just I'm just me and the nurse and the public health person. So yeah, I was really surprised, but that kind of triggered a desire to, you know, say okay. What is that about that? And if I am theologian like am, I good one or bad one? Or so basically, I'm so excited about this episode and talking because it's really true everything we do is the logical whether that is based on implicit or explicit, the Allah G and a good way to understand this. I guess is over Christmas. I was talking with a family member, that's not a believer. And she had an opinion on Jesus and God and all of these things, but she's not a believer. But I realized that technically. She was engaging in the G. She had an opinion about Jesus. And god. So that was her the elegy. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not just for pastures or seminary students are theology is what we believe about about God. And we really want to do the all g well because you're either going to be a good theologian or bad, the login. Yeah. That's so true. And you know, it's interesting because even if we don't think that we even have certain beliefs about God. Right. It shows up in the decisions that we make and in the way that we look at the world, and that we respond to things like tragedy. And so yeah, it is so important what we believe about. God, our theology really really does matter hand. Now, I do want to say here just a little bit of caution. We don't want to study the just to like make ourselves look really smart or we also don't. Want to study theology just for the sake of knowledge right knowledge, for the sake of knowledge is really not going to be helpful for us here. But we want to make sure that we are seeking knowledge of God for the sake of loving him and knowing him and drawing closer to him. So I know for myself, you know, when I first started to realize that I am theologian. I actually got really excited and wanted to learn about who got is out of love for him. But you know, it didn't take long before my pride kind of came into play and quickly. I found that I was studying theology in order to look smart or even like in order to feel like I was a really good Christian and to make myself look good in the eyes of other people or even good in the eyes of God. And you know, what happened is that the joy went away as soon as it became all about me. Me instead of being all about God, my joy in learning about him disappeared. And I'm so glad that got opened my eyes to that. And brought me back to seeking him for him right out of a love. And of who he is. And that's not to say, I don't struggle at that still. But we have to constantly remind ourselves of what is even the point of doing all of this. Exactly. I'm right there with you. I think it's really important for us to have a knowing and thinking faith, but like I said we can't have knowledge without the devotion without the relationship. Right. Yes. I mean, we live in a fallen world where sinners were prone to want to be God in a way. So this is just a journey as sanctify -cation that will never end on earth were always going to be fighting against our pride against idols that want to prop up. And so when I study God's word when I engage. In the G when I want to strengthen my feel g I am constantly having to check my heart's motive like you said. And I think what you said was really potent. And that a good kind of barometer that we can have is one more studying one were studying theology when we're studying God's word. We can ask ourselves is my love for the Lord growing might delighting and the Lord as I engage in these spiritual disciplines because if not that I need to go back, and I need to remind myself like why does the all g matter? Why are we doing this? And it has to be because we love the Lord. Absolutely. And what a reminder to always be returning to confession. Right. Whenever we see this pride pop-up whenever we see that. We have the wrong motives to come to God. And to confess those things to him. And you know, he is faithful and just to forgive us him scripture says to cleanse us from all and righteousness. So we can call on him to help us to grow in that sanctify like you were talking about Stephanie and to seek him and find joy in him. So we do want to say, then what is the right reason? Right. Why does the Allah G matter for us? And I know we talked about you know, seeking God for who he is. And you know, there are a lot of implications of good theology in our everyday lives. So I want to give you a few reasons why theology really does matter for us all of us and one of them is that it changes the way that we? See everything everything that happens in our lives. Whether it's things or difficult things, whether it's joy or suffering or tragedy, or whatever it may be the way that we've you got. And who he is changes the way that we've you the entire world. It gives us a perspective gives us hope when we have a good and right theology. So that's the first thing that changes the way we see everything. And Secondly, it also changes the way that we react to everything and everyone, you know, if we have a right view of who God is that's going to change the way that we react to our friends, and neighbors, and family and enemies, right? It's going to mean that we react in love. And not in hate. It's going to mean that we are recognizing that we are sinful just like our neighbor. And we're all desperately in need of God's grace. Right. So it's going to change the way that we react to people is going to change the way that we react to our situations. And then it changes us, and as we seek God as we see God in his word we begin to see God for who he is. And when we behold him for who he is. This is absolutely amazing to me. We are actually transformed into his image. Second corinthians. Three eighteen says, and we all with unveiled face beholding. The glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another for this comes from the Lord who is the spirit. The first time. I read that verse. I was just blown away the idea that we are actually sharing and. Going to share in the glory of God and being transformed into his image. And that's sanctification. Is that Stephanie mentioned that we are growing in holiness that we are being made righteous and therefore looking more and more like Jesus. And so our theology really really does matter. Good theology. What we believe about God. And what we think that God thinks about everything that really does matter. Yeah. When you were saying that the allergy changes the way that we react to everything and everyone it reminded me of motherhood, you know, in the season of raising little people, and you know, I have a nine month old three year old and five year old. And that my theology matters in how I mother my kids of how I've view them and how I react to them. And it just we want to give. Our kids, you know, a good upbringing, and we want to vest in them there are little disciples. But like one of the best things we can do is that to make sure that we ourselves have good theology. And that's that's gonna be an overflow of that. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes total sense. And that so humbling because I think for those of us who are moms. We probably spend a lot of time on the computer on our phones, googling all of these ways to raise perfect little children. And we just think that it's so much about what we can do. And if we step back and realize like, hey, what really matters is that we are seeking to know and love God, first and foremost, and that's going to overflow into the way that we raise our kids even the way that we mess up in front of our kids height. And that's that's what really matters. It's really humbling to realize oh, all this stuff that. I think that I can do in my own power is not really going to be what's going to cause transformation in my kids. Exactly. Okay. Thinking about all of those different reasons of about why what makes the all g matter. Why matters to us? It made me think of the, quote, we become what we behold, and essentially that is God's will for all of us. We don't have to ask what lured what is your will? His will is that we would be conformed to the image of Christ degree by degree or as you read from one degree of glory to another. And I think that's really powerful. Yeah. Absolutely. While we want to share with you a little bit of our personal experience of how we came to love the Allah G. And remember when we're talking about the Allah. Gee, we are talking about what is true about. God. Right. What we believe about who got is. It doesn't have to be the scary word that con. Up all these ideas of really difficult terminology. And you know, we're probably going to talk about some of that terminology here in this podcast. But it doesn't have to be intimidating. We're talking about what do we believe about who God is? And you know, I think I fell in love with the Allah G for the first time when I was in high school, and I was attending a private Christian high school, and I had to take bible classes every year. It was part of our required curriculum in my junior year of high school. I actually took a theology class. It was just called survey of theology. And let me tell you I grew up in the church, but some of this stuff that I was hearing in this class. I had never heard before. And what I realized is that I really thought that I had God figured out. Like, I knew kind of like the Sunday school answers. And I thought well, if you wanna know who got is he's. As you know, this and this and this and that was kind of it. But then I just I saw that there is so much more than I ever realized. And my eyes were open to the fact that God is so big that he is infinite and that there is just an infinite amount of truth about who he is about his character. And I got so excited to learn about it. And I think that this is the first time in my life that I was really excited to learn not just because I was excited to good grades or because I was excited to say, oh, I can spout off all this knowledge. It's going to make me look, really smart. I was like super in to having really good grades as a kid like super into being the smart kid. Right. And so my love of learning in the past had been largely. Motivated out of just like looking really good. And for the first time, I experienced true joy in learning about who God is, and they're really changed my life and from that point on God just continued to draw me closer to him. And you know, he used this mind that he's given me that does seek for knowledge in order to seek for the only kind of knowledge that actually brings true and lasting joy. And that's the knowledge of him. That's awesome. I think we're really similar in that way of just being achievers. And I always say that I could I am a lifelong learner like if someone with pay me to go to school and get degrees. Like, I totally would I have said that so many times I wish I could just be a student for a living. Right. Why can't it be free? But for me, I would say that I was raised in the church but not raised in Christ. And kind of like you I had all the Sunday school answers down. I did bible drill as kids or shout out to bible drill. I mean, I learned of the bible, I learned the importance of scripture memory and a lot of those things have stuck with me. So I don't think that that was a waste if found makes sense. Yeah. And even with our kids, it's an encouragement to me because I can't will my kids to be saved. But I know that the Lord is faithful and he's. Faithful to his promise that whatever study that we put in the word that we're going to profit from it. So whatever, you know, when I get my kids to memorize the word. That's even if they don't understand that knowledge is going to be there in their hearts, and and the Lord's gonna use that I think because as a young adult, I realize this I felt honestly like shackles fell off my eyes. And I was like oh my word. I have all of this knowledge about God. But I don't know God. And so that's where that devotion that relationship are so important, and for me, it was a balancing act moving forward from from there because I think there is a benefit of having a a thinking faith and having an orderly approach to bible study. I think we all need that honestly to grow in our biblical literacy and stuff -solutely. However, we need that love devotion. We need to realize that when we're approaching. Ching the bible that it is not a book about us like the way that I was tempted to before of. Okay, lord. What do you want me to do for my life? Do you want me to be a doctor or nurse? Do you want me to go on a mission trip or not like I was approaching the bible and making it about me? So that's when I was like, but the devotion part came, and I realized like I need to broach the bible as if the bible is about God because it is about God. So from start to finish it is about the nature of God in the knowledge of God's. So I need to start there. And that's when the love relationship kind of cultivated got nurtured because I realized that as I was learning more about God and pursuing bible study with the intent of learning more about God. I was falling more in love with him. And the way that happened though, was I I didn't discount my academic scienc-. Side. I use that to the spend it in terms of. Okay. I am going to discipline myself in the study because that is important too. I mean, we can't just be really flippant. I don't think about our bible study. I think there needs to be a proper approach in a discipline to it. But yeah. So that's a long story. Short of how my life really is a balancing act of discipline and delight. Yes, I love that. I love it doesn't have to be one or the other. Right. It's not the if we are very disciplined and structured in our study than we're going to miss the whole point necessarily. And it's not that if we are, you know, delighting in God, then we can't have that discipline that go hand in hand. I love that. I think that's so helpful so Stephanie I know that were talking about, you know, we need to start with God's word and seeing who he is in his word. And so, you know, I think that that is the. Primary place that we should look for our theology is in the bible, and can you kind of just expound upon that a little bit about why the bible is our Goto place to learn about God. Sure. So the bible is our at authority on truth and our authority on who got is. And that is because the bible is like I said before is a book about God. And when I when you think about the definition that I used on the g meaning the all Adji is what we think God thinks about something. Then that makes total sense that we would go to the bible his very words to kind of uncover. What what does got think about these things? Yeah. Yeah. So moving forward we wanted to take a few minutes to go over the four major care characteristics of the bible, and you may have heard it said this way that the bible is inspired an errant sufficient and each hurdle. But being an army wife and a world of acronyms. I thought it would be helpful to present the traditional for attributes with an acronym called scan and a lot of people do use this. So it's not like I came up with this. Right. Yeah. But scan so S C A N stands for the sufficiency of scripture, the clarity of scripture the authority of scripture and the necessity of scripture, but all of that boils down to God's word is needed enough understandable and final, but we are going to break this up a little bit individually. Yes, I love the acronym. Makes it so easy to remember. So the first thing we want to look at is the ass that scripture is sufficient, and what this means is that when we look at the bible, we have the very word of God. Right. The bible is part of God's special revelation. This is how he reveals who he is specifically in his word and saying that the bible is sufficient means that we don't need to look for any more special revelation about who got is the word of God. Has everything that we need to know about him. It has everything that we need for life and for godliness and second Timothy three fifteen through seventeen talks about how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ. Jesus all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for training and righteousness. But the man of God may be complete equipped for every good work. So this word of God that we have is able to quit us for every good work. It is has everything that we need for salvation to have faith in Jesus Christ. All the information that we need is right here in scripture. Now, let me tell you what this does not mean. This does not mean that we shouldn't seek any knowledge outside of the bible. Right. You. You don't want your surgeon who's going to be performing brain surgery to use the bible as their brain surgery taxed buck, right? This is not what we are talking about what we are saying is that the knowledge that we gained from scripture about who. God is and about what we need to follow him and have faith in him. All the knowledge that we need for salvation it is right there in his word. We don't have to wait for God to speak out. Loud to us in order to know. What his will is. Right. Stephanie you mentioned this earlier, right? His will is our sanctification and the bible has everything that we need for sanctification. And that's what we're talking about with this special revelation, right? God reveals who he is in his word. And so, you know, just a little side note on this books and commentaries. Can be really great and can be really really helpful. But scripture is sufficient it is the ultimate authority that we go to and there is no substitute for God's word. I think it's important to realize that we can't get along with the word of God. And it is sufficient for our salvation like he reveals it to us in his word, but there is benefit in, you know, coming under the teaching of someone who went to seminary, we're not saying that there is no benefits in seminary and pastures don't need to go to seminary, right? And learn and that way we are saying that you as an ordinary person a non seminary student. A pastor non pastor can approach the word of God. And you can be fed from it directly. But we are going to move on to see which stands for clarity. And this simply means and the spilt off of what I was just saying that the. Saving. Message of Jesus is plainly taught in scripture, and it can be understood by all who have ears to hear. And so although we don't need anyone to interpret the bible for us. It's helpful at times, though, it's it's helpful to have commentaries. But that shouldn't be our first step when we approached the word, we should go to the word and read it for ourselves, and we're going to talk a little bit about this in a different episode. But I wanted to read Deuteronomy thirty eleven through fourteen to kind of expound on this idea that their bible is clear. A message of salvation is clear, and it says for this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you. Neither is it far off is not in heaven that you should say who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us that we may hear it and do it. Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say who. Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us that we may hear and do it. But the word is very near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart. So that you can do it. So like, I said this doesn't mean that there's no need for formal training. It's just that the central tenets of scripture are discernible to you. And to me, and we aren't in need of an official church interpretation of those very central tenants. Yeah. I had a teacher in high school. Who would always say everything essential is clear. Right. God has made clear what is needed for life and godliness and his word, and we can all go directly to his word and ask him to give us understanding as we read the truth that he has made plain to us. Right. So the third letter the a is a thority, and this is saying which we mentioned a little bit already. It's kinda hard. Not to jump around when we talk about these things. But it's that God's word is our ultimate and final thority on. What is true? And the reason for this is because the bible is inspired. This word inspired means that it is God breathed and again back to second. Timothy three sixteen and seventeen says all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for training in righteousness. And so this is the very word of God. And God is the final is the final thority on truth. So his word is the final authority on truth. And because it's God's word. It also means that it is in Aaron and that word means that it is without error, and it's a rigid manuscripts. So. Think about this. The bible tells us that God is unable to lie. He does not lie to us because it is against his very nature to tell ally. And so if this is the word of God and God does not lie to us. We know that everything in this book is true. And so nothing outs not human experience or church councils or science or cataclysms or anything takes precedence over scripture because his word is what is an errant. It is what is inspired and therefore we can trust it. The bible is trustworthy because God is trustworthy. Absolutely. At the last part of our acronym scan is n which stands for necessary. And this is saying that there is a general revelation of God, right? You can look around the world and see creation and see God. But general revelation is not enough to save us. An honestly our personal experience. And human reason can't bring us to a saving knowledge of God. I liked what Wayne them said about this. This particular attribute he says this attribute is the idea that the bible is necessary for knowing the gospel for maintaining spiritual life and for knowing God's will. But is not necessary for knowing that God exists or for knowing something about his character and moral laws. So we can look at this world and see that God is magnificent. He's big he's creative because he created a beautiful world. Right. But that. Doesn't mean that we're saved doesn't mean that we have that saving knowledge of Christ in that relationship with Christ. So this is when you might have heard the phrase Sola script era, and that is just basically saying scripture alone is the supreme authority in Christian thinking and living. The word is eternal. It's never outdated which is what Joanna was saying earlier. So an even Jesus says in Matthew twenty four thirty five he says heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will not pass away. Yes. I'm so glad that that is what lasts right? The word of God. Now that was a lot simple recap. The four digital attributes of the bible using the acronym scan are sufficiency clarity authority and necessity. So the pile is a Naf. It is clear it is final and it is necessary. So that was kinda heavy. So we wanted to transition. Into a okay, you're telling me that I'm theologian, and I want to be a good theologian. But how do I engage in theology? So that's gonna be our next topic. Join up what would you tell someone who maybe even as a new believer? And they're like, okay, I'm theologian. I wanna be a good deal login. What should I do? Please tell me. Yeah. So the thing that I'm going to say and this probably won't surprise you. But start with the bible, right? The bible reveals who got is the bible is about God. So if you are new studying the bible, or maybe you've been studying it for a while. But you've just never considered the idea that you are theologian. I realized that maybe just saying read your bible might be a little bit overwhelming Hynde seem unhelpful, right? There's so much where am I supposed to start? How am I supposed to approach it, especially these? Stories that seem kind of strange, I really don't know what's going on. So here's my first suggestion to you. Choose a book of the bible and read it from start to finish. Right. A lot of times attempted to kind of like open the bible and pick out a verse. And try to understand it completely out of context. But go through a book of the bible from start to finish. And keep one major question in mind as you are reading what does this book teach me about God, what does this book? What does the word of God reveal about who? He is constantly be asking yourself that question. I really like that. I I actually have a pamphlet and my bible that has these essential questions that I want to ask myself whenever I approached the words, so like exactly what does the bible have to say about God in this particular passage book of the bible. What is the like what has he done? What is he going to do what pleases him who is God that this passage is is talking about? So I think a helpful thing is to have a pamphlet of essential questions. And anytime you come approach the word. Go ahead and read those questions over to kind of have that right frame of mind. I guess when you go to read. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, if you are totally new to studying scripture, I do want to recommend one resource to you that we have at the daily grace company, and it is our Amen study. And it's the story of scripture from Eden to eternity. And basically what this study does is it gives you an overview of the story of the entire bible. So this is a great study to do because then no matter what book of the bible you choose to jump into. You have a foundation for what's going on and foundation for how to understand it. So we'll put the link to that. In our show notes if you'd like to go ahead and work through that. Amen study with us. Yeah. And just remember that Christ is the goal. We don't want to ever. Engage. The algae to be happier or to be more confident in ourselves or to sound super smart, or spiritual. I mean, Jesus is not a means to improve our lives. He is our very lives. Yeah. So don't ever kind of allow your faith to become this vehicle to get you to greater fulfillment. Because that's not the point. But along with that also realize that spiritual growth it takes effort. There are no shortcuts to growth RC sprawl, says spiritual growth involves effort the hard work of sanctification. And it's not that we are equal partners with God in our saints fixation. He sanctifies us, but we have this role of submitting. And disipline. There are these spiritual disciplines that we are called to engage in. But always remember it says in Philippians two thirteen that it's God who gives us the will to work, and he's the one that works. According to his good pleasure. He's the one that invites us to join in on his work. So all of that to say it does require work, but don't get discouraged. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, the bible God's word plays a huge role in that sanctifying process that process of growing in holiness by the power of God. Right. The power of the Holy Spirit. You know to second Timothy three sixteen going back to that verse again talks about how scripture is useful for training us in righteousness. And so yeah, it does take discipline to go to God's word and to ask those questions. But when we do that. We gain a greater knowledge of him. And like we said before we are transformed into his image. So one thing I wanted to add to that the suggestion of reading book of the bible through is choose a short book of the bible. You know, we didn't give you an exact book to start with. But just a recommendation is choose a shorter book of the bible. So that you can read it from beginning to end one sitting maybe and that you can repetitively read it there is such a benefit of just sitting down and reading for content and context, you don't have to have a pencil case of highlighter every time you come to the word. Right. So just read it, but I will also highly recommend setting the goal for yourself resolved to read through the word in one calendar year. I know that this cystic has kind of floating around social media, but it takes about seventy hours to read through the. Entire bible. I'm a slow reader. So it might take seventy five hours. Seventy five hours we can afford seventy five hours in one calendar year of our lives. And so I wanted to do that. I also had two more suggestions. But before I go onto them Joanna. Let's share your suggestions. Yeah. So I would say, you know, like we said before there is no substitute for God's word. But that doesn't mean that extra biblical resources right resources outside of the bible that doesn't mean that those aren't helpful to us as well. So I did want to recommend if you're looking for maybe some books to help you along this journey. I have a few suggestions. So I love Jen. Wilkins books. None like him and in his image and these books go through twenty attributes of God, the first one is what we call incommunicable attributes which are attributes that we don't share with God. Right. Like that. He is all powerful. Oil or that he is sovereign. And then the other book in his image. Are the communicable attributes those are things that we can reflect like God's love, for example. So these are really accessible easy to read putt. Just packed full of awesome truth resource for you to kind of start on that journey of even learning some terminology. If you're interested in that if you want to maybe get a little bit more scholarly. I have to the Allah g books that I highly recommend they're both called systematic theology. But one is by Wayne gruesome and one is by John frame. These are great kind of reference books that you can go to to kind of learn about God and his attributes and how how scripture describes him. Yeah. I was really excited when I saw that you mentioned them. Yes. They're so good. They're huge bugs. But I absolutely love them. Now one. The other thing I want to mention, and I can't stress the importance of this enough is the local church. Your local church being involved in Christian community in person is incredibly important you need to be sitting under the teaching of those in leadership over you. Right. Teaching from your pastors and elders leaders in your church, you know, having someone in your community to walk alongside of you in your study of scripture right in a discipleship role. Helping you to navigate those difficult passages. Right someone that you can talk with and bouts questions off of we were created to live in community with one another. We weren't made to do this thing on our own. And so being involved in the local church, you know, being in relationship and community with wise believers who have been walking this journey of faith is vitally important. And it's the way that God intended. It to be exactly our God is a God of order, and he wants us to be. We are the church, but there is an order to church. There is a special role for pastors and elders. So we there. Yeah. I can't emphasize it enough plug into a local church and within that local church. It doesn't even have to be a pastor. Find someone that's a little bit ahead of your little bit more mature in their faith an awesome to come alongside you and help you out. I think the scary part is just asking. But you will be so surprised how blessed they feel to have been asked. Yes. Absolutely. And I think the last little suggestion that we wanted to top it off with was pray that should be the first thing you do. I would say when you approach the word and the last thing and the last thing. Absolutely. So I James one five if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives generously to all without report. Approach and it will be given him so ask for wisdom. Ask him to incline your hearts to testimonies ask him to satisfy you with his words as to open your eyes to understand into behold, his word, and then after you read and study thank him for his word and pray and one thing that I loved to do is praying scripture back to him a good way to solidify new knowledge and understanding as to pray those things back to him. Use those words use those terminologies, and then that's when you'll be able to start communicating while and then you could teach someone else. So start by praying. What you learn back to the Lord adore him for who. He is. Right. You're reading scripture, and you hear that the Lord is powerful or that. He is faithful he has steadfast love. So in your prayer. You can just say back to God. Guy that you are an amazing God who loves me with the love that his steadfast and does not end, right. And those troops begin to penetrate our hearts, and that's just a great way to respond to God's word. Yeah. Now earlier we kind of eluded to the fact that we need to be careful when we're setting the Allah g of our motives, so I wanna kind of warn you about a few potential pitfalls as we studied theology that we wanna try to avoid and the first one, and you know, this one kind of permeates all of the rest is pride. Right. When we study God's word when we study who he is we want to come from a place of humility, it can be so easy to start to learn these things about who got is. And just think I am awesome. I am smarter than all of my friends. I know what my pastor is talking. About and they have no idea. So I am just the best. Right. We'd not want to get in that kind of position one thing that you will start to realize as you seek to know. God is that the more, you know, the more you realize you don't know our God is infinite and as soon as we think that we have understood fully who he is. And what he's doing and his plans, then we really need in ego. Check or we need to be humbled. So, you know, as we are approaching God's word pray that he would humble you pray that he would show you those things about him and about who you are in relation to him, which is really small and really limited. And that he would let that be a reason for you to look to him and rejoice in that truth. That's a good point. Don't approach the G. And bible study with this end goal in mind. Like, I am going to get there. And I'm going to know this, and I'm going to, you know, tick it off my list, and and know everything about it. You could spend your entire life studying the bible, and you will never exhaust the riches that are found in his word. Yes. That gives me goosebumps. I know I love that. And I love it. And then sometimes my flesh hates it. Right. Exactly. I am so one who just wants to know at all. I will. I'm right out and say it I and that was really evident as I was a kid like people would probably call me a no at all. But it's just still a tendency that creeps off. And sometimes I just wish I could check off a box and get to a point where I graduate with my knowledge of God. I know I feel the same way. And I was as I was praying about this podcast. I was like Lord who am I there's so much? I need. To know and learn and grow. But you know, that's when we can go and prayer and say Lord here, I come with my limited finite mind, and my untrained mind, I not a seminary student. I'm not a pastor. But I want to know you, and I want and he is faithful to meet you there. He is faithful. So right. And we want you to know all of you listeners out there that we are coming to this podcast. We are talking with you as one of you. Right. We don't just have this wealth of knowledge that we are just constantly pulling from left and right. We actually do a lot of prep work for these. Yes. And we want you to know that hey, we are on this journey with you. We are humble humans. In looking looking to know our great God. And so we're right there with you. So the second pitfall we want to try and be careful to avoid is approaching theology in order to earn favor with God, this kind of goes along with this pride. But it's this idea of thinking that if we do X Y Z if we study enough if we learn enough, then God's going to be pleased with us, and that that is the way that we are going to earn his love and his favor. We have to remember that we are all complete and total sinners who were dead in our said enemies of God. And it is by the mayor it of Jesus Christ and his righteousness that we are saved that we are loved by God, not because of anything that we have done or anything that we can do. So we really need to check ourselves. If we think that by doing this by studying. Our bibles by setting apart at time at six in the morning, where we go and read our bible that that's gonna make God love us more going to accept us or say that we're doing a good job. And I think that's what makes Christianity distinct from other religions, right because all the other religions, it's they have to earn their God's favor or their idea of God. And so they're working so hard and they're trying to climb up this mountain. But with Christianity, it's Jesus came down down this metaphorical mountain made the way for us. We don't have to you know, Russell and fight and make the way up to this. Holy god. No, he came down Jesus came down. And we can you know, we can have his righteousness as believers absolutely you can never add to that. I love I love that picture of. We're trying to str-. Five and climb up to God. And all these religions are saying, here's what you can do to to be better into do better. And Christianity is the one where God comes down to us. And he rescues us, and isn't that such a relief to know that it's not on our shoulders is, but but I could see I could see why it's easier to be like, I'm earning God's favor. I'm doing this. Because that's what culture tells us to do like do this be this way. Then you're gonna feel good about yourself. But I mean, that's a whole nother topic about identity, but. Anyways. We'll leave it there for now. Yeah. Until another day. Okay. Well, we also want to make sure that we are not in our knowledge of God using that as an excuse to judge other people, right? These are all wrapped up in pride of saying. Okay. I believe this about God. And you don't understand it. And so you're not good enough. Right or sometimes we can get so caught up in these things that we believe about God that are actually not a sensual points of the faith. And so we allow that to cause us to have disunity with other believers, right? And that's the fourth thing we need to avoid as allowing our theology to divide us as believers, right? We talked about earlier what is. Essential for our faith. God has made clear, and we need to pray that God would keep us from becoming. So prideful in what we think that we know that we allow that to sever relationships or to destroy opportunities that we have to love and encourage our brothers and sisters in Christ. Let us be seeking to be unified in the things that are essential to our faith that God has made clear and that in those things that are non essentials or our convictions or are just merely opinions that we would be loving and respectful with one another. Yeah, I think that's a great point. There are different levels in the all g like you mentioned. There are essentials their convictions and their preferences. A preference. Could be a worship style. Don't let that divides. You and divide the church. Like, we want to stand firm and agree, and, you know, have coven until relationships with those that we know we believe in the same essential, Dr essential theology. Right. We share those essentials beliefs. Right. But it's okay. Not to agree on every little thing. Just focus on the person focus on the essential beliefs. There's this thing called essential doctrines of the Christian faith. And then the other stuff is. Okay. Yeah. I wanted to share one more quote, and this is probably my last quote for this Abbas sewed for today. Whilst right. It's an article from desiring God. And an I will include this in the show notes. But it says the G will kill you. If it does not kindle, a deep in the biding love for the God of the bible. And if it does not inspire desire for his glory and not all to our own. That's good. I now the all Aji. The study of theology is going to be a work of a lifetime you guys. But let's be like the apostle Paul who says in I Corinthians to to like it is our life mission. We're longing to know Christ and him crucified. We don't ever want to know much about God yet, not really know him. Yeah. I love it. And even that that verse were Paul says want to know, Christ and him crucified. He's saying, hey, this is what my theology is not all this extra stuff. Off. That's like you were saying just a preference. Right. That's going to divide. But Christ and him crucified. I love that. All right while everyone. We just wanna say thank you so much for joining us today. We are going to be releasing new episodes every Tuesday. So if you haven't yet, please make sure to subscribe to our podcast, and if you are enjoying this podcast if you are blessed by it. And anyway, we would love to ask you to leave us a review on items. They'll only take you about a minute. And when you leave a review at actually helps more people be able to find our show. So if you have been encouraged in you think that someone else might be encouraged by this podcast as well. Please go ahead on their and lever view. So that we can have this conversation with more and more women. Yeah. And also be sure to check out the daily grace company at. At the daily grace co dot com. And as we mentioned, we are going to have shown oats for today's episodes in every other episode at daily, grace podcasts dot com, we are. So grateful to have had this conversation with you guys. We hope it was encouraging and more than anything. We want your hearts to be stirred to seek God and his word. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us ladies.

Stephanie G. And bible Joanna Timothy Jen Wayne G. Christian high school Paul Julia cystic Adji kindle official Abbas Aaron John frame Matthew
What is Salvation?

Daily Grace

1:13:28 hr | 1 year ago

What is Salvation?

"Welcome to daily grace. We believe that the bible is true, trustworthy, and timeless, and we want to help women like you know, and love God's were the bible shows us who got is, and who he is changes everything. My name is Julia. I'm Stephanie come join us as we chat about the truth of God's word every day. Live. You've probably heard people talk about getting saved and many of you have experienced at yourself, but what actually is Saudi Shen? How does it work? What are we saved from what are we save to? Whether you're a believer on not this topic is so important and so helpful to talk about in this episode. We're chatting about the order of salvation and taking a look at just what is happening in this whole process. There is plenty of application for your life today in this conversation. So come and join us. Welcome back to another episode of daily grace as always Stephanie and Joanna here. Hey, and we are ready and excited to host another conversation. But before we jump in Joanna do you have a favorite thing to share with us? Well before I share, I have to say I am proudly drinking my key lime. Likud. Recording. I have to tell you, I got a lot of flack from Stephanie, and our editor Jesse over my LaCroix love, but so you can't shake me. But no, I will say a favorite thing this week. I don't think I've ever mentioned this before. But I think that string instruments and by stringent sa- mean specifically, like violins, cellos XV, yours are the most beautiful instruments ever. Yeah. And this Sunday we had someone joining our worship team to play cello. And man, I just felt like I got an extra little taste of eternity on Sunday. Man, I have to say I can become a pretty emotional person sometimes. And stringed music, we'll do it to me, if you give me a pair of noise. Is cancelling headphones. And give me some orchestral stringed music. I will get weepy because it is beautiful. It really is cello is one of my favorite and I want my six year old to play cello. That's like my desire love it. But my favorite thing is not that spiritual. Mine was key lime LaCroix last week. So that's true. And I think that's what I was thinking of, when I chose mine, and, you know, it's been a favorite thing for a couple of weeks and it's very vain. It's makeup. It's a particular kind of makeup. And I'm not sure natty with makeup. I do the same thing every single day have for. Yes, same. But I had to share a new thing for my browse that I found, and it's called Malani stay put brow, and it's from target and like six bucks, but it works. So, well, is it like liquid or a pencil, or what is it? It's like no, it's a brush that you dip into this thing, and it works, so well, and it's going to last like a long time, like way more than any eyebrow pencil. So I thought it was like a gem that I needed to share with everybody. Yeah. Definitely. I always eat all the makeup help. I can get all the makeup fanatics out there are going to cringe. But I just like apply makeup. With my hands like put on action. I'm not doing I to I know we're terrible. We try our best. Well today, we are talking about really a super important topic for the Christian faith, and that salvation, which I mean pretty central, I would say, yeah. And we want to talk about what it actually means to be saved and how all of that works. And so we're talking about something called the order of salvation, and here's a little theology. Trivia nerd alert coming here. The super cool, a Latin term for order salvation is or to salute us. And so you might hear people talk about this is the Ordos saluda. And so we actually see the order of salvation really all throughout scripture, that terminology, is not used. But we're going to talk about it today as it's presented in Romans eight. So we're going to look at several different aspects of it election, calling justification sanctification. Shen and glorification. And like if you go online, and Google Ordos salute us, you might see a few other steps that can be added like between those steps, and for the sake of simplicity. We're not going to list them here as separate categories. These are kind of the biggest categories at the other ones can kind of fall underneath. So, you know, I think that sometimes we talk about salvation, we think about it as a one time deal. It's this past event it happened, when we prayed a prayer or went up to an altar call or however, it may have happened. And, you know, there is an element of truth to that. Our salvation does have a past element, a particular point in time, but it doesn't end there. It's actually an ongoing process, and so our salvation has passed elements in ongoing present element and a future element. And so understanding how this works really does. Troops form everything that we do. That's why this is so important to understand aside from the fact of, you know, understanding what salvation is, and how it happens if we realize that our salvation actually has an ongoing element that's gonna change everything that's going to change our everyday lives like all the little and big decisions that we make the way that we walk the way that we act. And so this really is a super important conversation to have. An it's actually incredibly practical. Yeah. I mean I definitely thought that it was kind of like a one point in time thing, and I thought that I only needed the gospel for my conversion, and I was good to go, but just like we talked about in the preaching the gospel to yourself episode like the gospel is for sinners and you know, at your point of conversion. It's not like you aren't a center anymore from from that point on, and that was actually freeing for me. And I just love that our salvation has the. The past lament present element and future element. Like you were saying. So I think this is going to be a really helpful conversation. And like you said Joanna this phrase, the order of salvation isn't seen in the bible. However, it's a really helpful sort of theological system that allows us to clearly communicate. You know, the various components involved in the salvation of a Christian. So I think it'll be really helpful to us this order to see the relationships between the terms and, you know, to see that one term can't really operate independently they're all apart of one another. And so, even though the order of salvation is not mentioned in the bible, every term within the order of salvation is used in scripture, and really like you said, is going to help us understand like the practical implications of the gospel, and of salvation in our lives today. And in the future, too. Scripture really shows us, how they do work together and it kind of talks about the implying that they work together right in way. So we're going to kind of dig into that a little bit. But before we dive into those steps we wanted to talk about condemnation. And the reason we want to do this is because I truly believe that we cannot understand the fullness of the good news of the gospel until we understand the bad news. Right. You can't have the good news without bad news. And so to allow us to be able to appreciate it understand the gospel. What is this bad news? So the bad news we're talking about here can be encapsulated in a little word called sin. Don't. We see it in the bible in Genesis three which is typically referred to as the fall in this is adamant eve disobeyed God and ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But we may know that, but we need to talk about, you know, how do we define sin? And I think John frame, does eight great job of comprehensively giving us a definition for sin. And he wrote a book called systematic theology very helpful will Lincoln in our show notes hierarchy amend it. But he says, in that book instan- we turn from God's good commandments his kingdom and glory, faith and love it. Embraces disobedience the kingdom of Satan, and evil attitudes. So sin is actually disobedience self glorification and unbe leaf, right? And so, because of Adams said he actually represents all of humanity and so because of his sin. We are. Are all born into sin. We are born sinful, and we know from Romans six twenty three that the wages of sin is death. And so what that means is that all those who have sinned, which we said is all of us are condemned to death. And you I think sometimes we can think we're off the hook because we think, well, okay, I haven't broken the ten commandments haven't sinned, but no, we see, for example, in the sermon on the mount Jesus talks about how we are told, for example, in the ten commandments do not murder. But if we hate our brother, if we have these feelings and thoughts of animosity towards somebody, which let's be honest, we all do, even if his kids, we were like, I don't hate you. I strongly dislike it's, it's the same thing. So if we do that we are committing murder in our hearts. So even if we do not have the outward action of murder, we have murderous hearts, and that is true of all of these different. Laminates. And so the issue is. Yeah, we've all broken them. So think about like a real life example. Let's say that there is somebody that really bothers you. And they did something that offended you or annoyed you and you might not say something rude to them. Or maybe you might not gossip outwardly about them, but you're still thinking it in your mind. You're still letting it brew and take root in your heart. It's letting this bitterness just bubble up. Even if we kind of suppress it and push it down, even if we never let it show on the outside. And so this is a really big deal because this means that there really is no imaginable way that anyone could be Senlis. I wouldn't last a day trying to keep sinful thoughts out of my mind. I wouldn't. And so even if we think, well, I've kind of met these expectations. We really haven't we can. Also, I think fall into the trap of thinking. Okay. Well, maybe I've messed up, but I've done more good things than bad things. Right. So we think of our sin is like this balance, like, okay, if I did five bad things. But I did like twenty five good things. So surely that's going to tip the scales. And that's going to outweigh the bad that I've done. Well, that's also really flawed. I mean, we see James to ten James says for whoever keeps the whole law, but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. So in case we kind of our thinking, well, I can I can be the exception to that rule like, I'm not sinful enough to be condemned scripture makes it very clear that all of us are sinful and all of us are condemned. Right. That's my think it's helpful to remember that sin is not just disobedience or breaking a rule. It's also self glorification and unbeliev. And that's why you know, it goes down deeper than just. Yeah. Are. Outward lives in so I love the sermon on the mount. I think that is, what really helps me understand this, that Jesus was calling us to eight deeper obedience, because he, you know, interpreting the law, just beyond the external so I highly recommend studying that I know the daily grace co has a study a sermon on the mount. So go check that out. If you haven't taken time to slowly kind of study the sermon on the mount but yeah, like Joanna said all of us have seen. We're all sinners were all guilty. And so we have this legal status really of being guilty. We have violated God's law, and that is why we are in desperate. Need of his grace? Right. And the problem is that because God is just he has to punish this. And that's a problem for us who are sitters, right? Because God can't just look at our sin and say, okay, well. I'm just going to forget about it because that would go against his character like think about this. Let's say that you have someone who has committed murder, and he goes into a courtroom and the judge looks over the evidence and he says you are guilty. You have done this crime. I know you've done it, but I'm just gonna let you go free. We would also he was a horrible judge. Yeah. That, that is an unjust judge. And this is the same of God. If God is to be just he must punish sin. And so he cannot just overlook our sin because that will go against his very character. He would cease to be God, because he would cease to be just and he would cease to be holy right? So it's a good thing. Yes. It's a good thing. I said it's a problem when I mean is it's a problem for us who now face condemnation, but it's not a problem for God's character for him to punish sin, right? So the issue is that we find ourselves in a seemingly hopeless. Situation at this point, right? We are all desperately central with no way to earn our salvation. But the good news is that God made a way he made a way for us to be able to escape the penalty of our sin with God remaining just with that sin still being punished. And the way that he did it is that he set his son. Jesus Christ to become a man and pay the penalty for our sin, so that by faith. We might be freed from our guilt, and condemnation and have eternal life and that's the gospel in a nutshell, right? But we kind of have to ask ourselves like, how does that work and we want to break that down. We wanna look at how does that actually happen? But first, we're going to look overview, where we see most of these steps, which is in Romans eight twenty eight thirty and said, these verses say, and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those. Who are called, according to his purpose for those whom he for new, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, and those whom he predestined he also called. And those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified. He also glorified. So we're going to kind of break that down and look at these individual steps. Right. And the first step that we see, and that we're going to kind of dive into in this order of selfish as election, an election as the biblical doctrine that God, chooses some people to be saved. It's an active God before creation, in, you know, we see in this passage in Romans eight one it says those whom he for new he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. This sport four new here in the original language is not just an awareness of knowledge, that something is going to happen in the future, this act. Actually, has the connotation of personal loving knowledge. And so for those whom God for new he also predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus, which as we will see what salvation accomplishes. Yeah. And so it's pretty typical to use. This word predestination that we see in these verses interchangeably with the word election, which is step that we're talking about right now. Election and scripture, always has the positive sense of God's people who are chosen for salvation. Yeah. I didn't recognize that actually myself just that differentiation between those two. Right. Yeah. And it's kind of subtle, but I think it's helpful for us to see the difference here. And you know, we see this concept everywhere all over scripture as soon as you start looking for it. You see it all the time. Yeah. And one place that I love to go to because I think it states it so clearly is a Fijian's chapter one versus three through six. Oh. And it says blessed be the God. And father of our Lord, Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly, places even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved. And so we are using this word election, instead of predestination just because election is used in a much more narrow context. But we're not pulling that word out of nowhere. Right. We see in this passage that we just read. We see it says he chose us. He predestined us. But we see that word election elsewhere too. Right. So in the fusion's passage that word shows is the verb form of that Greek word. That's translated elect, so it's actually. Is that word election there? And we see it just a few versus down from that Romans passage from earlier, Romans eight thirty three says who can bring any charge against God's elect. Right. Right. So the election is God, choosing us loving us before the foundations of the world for salvation that brings us to really one of the reasons why election is such good news. I think sometimes we push back against this idea. I don't know if you've experienced Stephanie. Oh, yeah. But I think that there's, we kind of have this tendency to think like I don't like that. I don't I don't like the idea of election, but really, it's so beautiful, and it is something that brings us so much rest and peace, because what this means is that our salvation is secure. Right. God, chooses us and just like Romans eight thirty three says who could bring charge against God's elect. There's nothing and no one that can change the fact that God chose us. And so that. Means that we don't have to live in fear. Right. We don't have to be constantly terrified that okay? This time this time that I messed up. That's the time that God's done with me. Right. Right. I know he says he's forgiven me, but I went and I send again, so surely, he's gonna get fed up or no. At this says, there's no charge that can be brought against God's elect. And so, man, how much more freedom could we live in, if we rested in that, you know, if we could know that we can live free from condemnation because God has chosen this to save us? It really is good news to think that you can do nothing to earn salvation, so you can't really do anything to lose your salvation. Yeah. And I love that passage inefficiency. That's kind of my go-to passage when people ask me, you know, like, okay, what is this election and predestination about like, is this in the bible? Because like you said, a lot of people kind of but against it, I think, and I. Consign that I've Ickes? I experienced that myself like I don't wanna say, like other people have an issue with it, and I don't because I do want to say that something that I have wrestled with men do Russell with. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to an I agree. I also kind of wrestle with it as well. But I think it just became so clear when I studied the book of a fusions that doctrine just seems so clear to me, and I remember thinking as I was studying it like, yeah, I know in my heart of hearts that I did absolutely nothing to be chosen. It was an act of God and, and praise God for that it really is amazing. And it really shows how incredible God's grace and love for us is. And what makes it even more amazing is to really think that before the foundation of the world before we were even created God chose to be his children. But even more that he chose us knowing that we would be sinful. Yeah. Knowing that we would be his enemies yet God still chose us. And so, yeah. Are only response to that is all glory to him, right. Yeah. He is the one who accomplishes our salvation from start to finish what an absolute gift, and what a sweet relief to us that our salvation is not up to us. It's really like a burden is lifted. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And you know that leads into the next step in this order salvation, which has calling, and, you know, as you go back through that Romans passage, it says those whom he predestined he also called. And I think that this is something that we kind of get confused at, like, what does this mean that we're called think we use this word calling, and a lot of different ways. Like what job should I take? Right. But we also talk about it in this sense of salvation. And so I think it's important to distinguish between the outward calling in. The inward calling. So there's a general outward, calling that goes out to all people, and it's the call to repent and believe in the gospel. And if this is the kind of call that this verse is talking about here in Romans eight then that brings up a problem. And because these versus go on to say that God saves those whom he calls and we know that not everybody who hears. The gospel will be saved. Right. People Regina all the time. I see this all over the place. But this is something different. This is the inward calling of the Holy Spirit. And this is what the Holy Spirit draws a person to God, that person whom God has elected whom he has chosen and this calling is affects you'll which means that it works. Right. It produces the desired result. And so these verses show us that because those who are called go onto justified. Right. It's a logical sequence. So the. Calling clearly works and I like what the Westminster shorter. Catechism says about this question. Thirty one says what is calling, and it says effectual, calling the work of God's spirit, whereby convicting us of our, sin, and misery. Right. That's that bad news in lightning our minds in the knowledge of Christ and renewing our wills, he doth persuade an able us to embrace Jesus Christ freely offered to us in the gospel of what we see is, like, hey, apart from this work of the Holy Spirit. Our wills are against God. They are against the gospel. But God in his grace, calls us, and draws us to himself, he convicts us, and he persuades our hearts to embrace Jesus Christ. That's a really super helpful distinction there. And, you know, I think impasse episodes, I've said like there was a moment when I felt like. The spiritual skills from my eyes fell on. And that's kind of what we're talking about here when the spirit does the work of convicting us of our sins and uniting our minds in the knowledge of Christ and renewing our wills, that's kind of what at least. I mean when I say like. Yeah. Truly felt like scales fell off my eyes and, you know, if we really think about it, this is good news for us because I remember early on in my walk being so afraid of sharing the gospel because I felt like I was gonna say something wrong and message. And I thought that my mistake was going to lead someone to like eternal damnation. Yeah. Like what if I mess it up for them? But if we really understand affects you'll calling, we understand that God is the one that is responsible for the results. It's the spirit that convicts of sin, and lightens the mind. And so, yeah, we do want to be able to proclaim. The gospel, clearly incorrect, right? And we do a life that displays the gospel, but we can have freedom in the belief that God is the one that is responsible for the results. He's the one that produces the growth, we are simply invited to partner with him and proclaiming, his outward calling but is so freeing because it can be terrifying to think, oh, man, this person salvation rides on how persuasive I am on how eloquent I am. And I mean that's just not true. And that should never be an excuse for us to not share the good news of the gospel. I'm just not gifted to speak, or I'm an introvert, but God calls us all to share the good news. And he is the one who produces results. Yeah. And sometimes, I think we kind of doubt the power of the word we feel like we have to be persuasive, and, yeah, you know, cheapen the gospel and. She'd been grace to kind of sell it. But right. There is tremendous life, transforming lifesaving power in the word of God. And we don't have to add to it. We can't add to it silently. So this takes the pressure off of evangelism. And you know, it also takes pressure off of parenting as well. You know, we want to faithfully teach the word of God to our kids. We want to foster a gospel centered culture in our home. And so these are good things that we should do, but we have to remember that God is the one who accomplishes, our salvation and our kids salvations from start to finish. And this is just God's mercy and grace on display and I just have to remind myself dot us good. And he does what is right. It's true. And we could pray for our kids selfish, and we're not saying, don't even rate for it. Absolutely. Pray for your kids in their salvation. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And you know what? We see coming out of this calling is the, the next step in our process is justification and this were justification. This is courtroom language like this is legal language. That is being used here and the word justification means to be declared righteous, and it is this legal standing? But we have before God. So it says if we're standing before a judge guilty of murder, and he says, I know you committed murder, I hereby declare you not guilty and the not guilty statement doesn't change the fact that we committed murder but it does legally remove the penalty for breaking the law. And if you remember earlier in our conversation, you might be thinking didn't use that emit God unjust, if he did that. And so, you know, we want to take a look at this. How can God do this and be good? How can he? He pardon, our sin and still declare us not guilty when we are clearly guilty. How can he be just do that? Right. I like the metaphor what the courtroom because it helps us understand that it's like a legal status, but I think the Bank account metaphor here, kind of explains it a little bit further. And in this Bank account metaphor were saying that we centers are debtors with, like negative accounts that we will never ever be able to back. And, you know, the Bank wanted money saying, like the judge is just right. He wants what is right and fair. But we're saying, like the judge remains just the banker remains a banker because we're saying Jesus pays our accounts in full that is how, you know, the standard is not changed because Jesus pays our account in full, and I love this metaphor because Jesus not only pays our account. And kind of leaves us with zero balance. Right. That's a blessing in and of itself. But he gives us his righteousness. So he puts our account in the positive. And I just love that. I think that gives a full picture of justification that Jesus paid the price, and that is why we can be declared not guilty. But he also gives us his righteousness so we are not guilty and we're considered righteous. Right. So let's see how this metaphor plays out. So in order for us to be righteous, we would have to fulfill perfectly every single bit of the law one hundred percent of it. We can't break a single part of it. And we are to know that none of us can do that. But Jesus Christ became a human and did perfectly fulfill, the law every point of it. He, he didn't break a single bit. I'm so that means that he is righteous, Jesus one hundred percent righteous. And when Christ dies on the cross, he takes on our sin. As his own. Right. So if you look at the Bank account, it's like our debt is credited to his account. So he takes on all of our sin as his own, even though he's totally Senlis. And that's this word called imputation. It's imputed to him. Right. It's credited to him. It's ascribed to him. That's what imputed means. And so on the flip side when he takes on our sin. He gives us his righteousness. His righteousness is imputed to us. So it's this exchange our sin for his righteousness. And this is what we call double imputation, if you wanted to the cool, theology double imputation, where sin is imputed to Christ righteous imputed to us. So the sin is still paid for in full through the death of Christ. And we could still gain perfect righteousness through the life of Christ. I like that. And I always think like salvation is this great exchange and huge just had a better wasting it it's. Double vision. The logical wave Sega. I love it. Putting it and my trivia Bank. Yeah. So it's just important here to realize that this moment doesn't mean you're automatically perfect and have mastered sin rhino. There's this difference between being declared righteous and being made righteous. So when we're declared righteous, you know, this is that legal status change, which is justification but doesn't mean we're instantly sin Louis. We aren't instantly perfect, and this idea of being made righteous is the process called sanctify -cation, and it is a lifelong process that we're going to really dive into here in a minute. But before we do we have a question, and it's Hotta we get this righteousness. Yeah. So when we talk about justification we like to use the first justification by faith is what scripture teaches us that the way that we get that righteousness. The way that we are justified is by faith in Christ and Sobe in Romans three twenty two. Says the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all, who believe this is what is given to us. And, you know, I think it's important to understand that this faith or belief it's not just believing facts to be true. It's not just that we say, I believe that Jesus died and raised from the dead. So that makes me a Christian. But this word faith, has the idea of entrusting ourselves to God. It's recognizing that we cannot be righteous on our own and entrusting ourselves to Jesus Christ as the one who gives us that righteous standing as the one who saves us think it's important to distinguish between that, you know, you see, like in the book of James where it says, like, hey, if you believe that God is one if you believe that he is the one true, God, awesome, even the demons belief that shudder. So it's more than just intellectual understanding of something, it's actually recognizing our need, and entrusting, our. Lives to Christ as the one who can fulfill that need right now. I like to see faith as like the grace to receive this justification this forgiveness declaration of righteousness. Right. And so we hope this was all informative. But, like Joanna said, it can't just be information. It really does impact our personal walks. And I think sometimes in our minds, we know that justification is a gift that Jesus willingly came down, and paid the price. It is in Tirlian his work. But in our day to day walks, we can easily forget, I think, that's part of like human nature that we're forgetful creatures. And if we're not careful our good works, which are evidence of our saving faith can kind of replace the gospel, hope and begin to function as an attempt to justify ourselves in before we know it. We're tangled up in this thing called legalism. Yeah. And you've probably heard that word before. And you might cringe when you hear. And you might think don't do that. But I think we all have a tendency to fall into legalism really legalism is the belief that we can somehow earn our salvation or earn God's favor through our works. Like I said, we might not say that we believe it out loud, but a lot of times, our lives reflect it. And I think we can turn to legalism because one we forget, our condemnation, right? We forget the fact that we actually were hopeless apart from Christ. And then we kind of forget, what a big deal our justification is we almost feel like, oh, I deserve justification. I earned justification. Because we forget, how horribly send full we actually are on our known and so, like an example of this as feeling really good about ourselves, and like we are just awesome people because we do all this Christian stuff, and we forget, how unable, we are to actually, please God on our own. But it's only. By the grace of Jesus Christ that, we can walk it Abedian so that we can do these things to please him. And I think on the flip side of that, which is really the same issue of legalism, is that sometimes we end up living in fear that if we mess up that God won't love us anymore, right? That because again, we would be earning God's love through our works. And so, you know, we look at versus say like God shows his love for us in that, while we were still sinners Christ died for us, right? He didn't die for us because we were good enough. He died for us, while we were in the depths of our sin. Yeah. Think also shows up just in, like creating rules that aren't in the bible. Right. We make these strict restrictions on things like what we can wear what we can eat or watch for the sake of earning. Our salvation, right? Like we said trying to do all these things to please God. And we really become arrogant, and that I think, because we're depending on our cell. Instead of depending on God for our salvation. And I think as we look at our lives, and we say, okay, do I struggle with us. Do I struck with legalism a good indicator Kayan be looking at our hearts to see if they go to one of two things either condemnation or self righteousness? Right. This total lack of conviction. So if we feel condemnation and constant shame, even though we have been justified, even though we've been forgiven that shows that we are believing that we have to continue to earn God's favor. Yeah. On the flip side, if we are feeling like a total lack of conviction and we're just feeling like we've got it together. Totally self righteous, that is showing that we think that we have earned a good standing with God. Yeah, I think legalism is, is something that we're all susceptible to. And I think a good way to combat that is to get in the word every day. I think. Think when we get in the word of God, we see our true, selves, meaning we see our sin for what it is. And then we see Jesus for who he is. So I think as we grow in our faith. We understand more fully our wretchedness, and then we can fully see the beauty and gots Greece. And so, again, this is why we need to preach the gospel to ourselves every single day. But really specifically to justification and fighting against legalism. I think it's also helpful to remember that we are declared sons and daughters of God. It's objective and just like our kids don't need to earn their title, a son or daughter in our families. We don't have to earn that title in God's family and praise. God for the Holy Spirit that affirms our place in, in his family within our hearts, Romans eight fifteen to sixteen says the spirit, you received. Does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again rather, the spirit, you receive brought about your Dopp Shen to sunshine and by him, we cry father, the spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. So now we get to move on to sink deflation, so Joanna can you tell us what sanctify -cation is? Yeah. So far we've the past elements of our salvation. And so now we're going to look at the present ongoing portion of our salvation, that's sanctification and sanctification is this lifelong process of growing in holiness. It's his process where we become more and more like Jesus. And so when we're justified the Holy Spirit. Dwells within us. We are actually Dopp did as God's children like you said. Stephanie and the Holy Spirit dwelling inside us. He is the one who sanctifies us. And so, I. Aloni ins for three tells us that this is God's will for us that his will for us is that we would be sanctified. It is our sanctification that is God's will for our lives. And so the thing is like, we don't just get saved to get into heaven, and then keep living the same way. Right. This is why this is so important for everyday lives. But Christ died, we would be holy. And so, how would we ever want to just keep living in this old, set and this old filth? Right. When we are called into holiness and into righteousness. I mean when we are justified, we are freed from the power of sin over us, which means that we have the power to say no to it not because of our own strength. But because of the Holy Spirit and so throughout the course of our lives. That's what we do. We partner with the Holy Spirit in this process of sanctify, which is being made righteous in. Thinking about the fact that our purpose is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. We couldn't do that. If we kept on living the same way. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely an ongoing process. And I love what Charles Spurgeon has to say about seeing to -cation he says, if he gives you the grease to make you believe he will give you the grace to live a holy life, afterwards and all throughout scripture. We see that God commands believers to be holy first. Peter one fifteen to sixteen says, but as he who called you is. Holy, you also be holy in all your conduct since it is written you shall be. Holy for. I am. Holy, and yeah. As you said, Joanna, sink to fixation is the means by which this happens. And this isn't saying, okay, now, you're saved pull up your boot straps, and act, a certain way it's actually an inward transformation that flows outward, and it is a work of God. Really like you said, again, the dwelling, Holy Spirit is the one who sanctifies in we partner with him. And that could look like studying his word and getting to know him knowing his character, what? He loves and hates, and, and that is, what will renew our minds and enable us to imitate God, which if Fiji's five one tells us, therefore beat imitators of God as beloved children. Yeah. And, you know, I had someone use an illustration that honestly blew my mind. I think that for the longest time, I never even realized that sanctification was a fait, I really just thought of salvation is like you're justified you're saved. Again, that's it. And you know, until Jesus comes back and until you die, and then, and then you'll probably be better, but I didn't really think of it as this as this process, and the thing, someone you L astray Shen, as there is a sliding scale of holiness, and you can kind of move toward more holy than you were. When you're I got, save you know, and this 'lustration I kind of stopped and thought about it. And it was like, is this heresy with this guy saying, okay? So new to me. But I think that scripture really teaches this that we kind of move more and more and more towards holiness. Yeah. Don't just stay stagnant in our lives. But it actually is this growth process. We can grow in holiness, and I love this quote from Martin Luther pretty famous quote. He says there is no justification without sanctification. No forgiveness without renewal of life. No real faith from which the fruits of new 'obedient s-, do not grow. So this is a reminder for us that if we are justified the result of that will be our sanctification, right? If we look at our lives, and we say, well, I believe in Jesus, but nothing else has changed. That might be evidence that we have not had a true genuine faith in Christ that we have not actually entrusted our lives to God for our salvation, but that we have just. It's kind of checked off a box and said, oh, I believe I said this prayer. Right. But yeah, she n you in faith, does produce sanctification. That's why James to goes on about how faith without works is dead. It's not a living faith. It's not a real faith if it does not result in sanctification. Yeah. Good works won't earn your salvation. But it's just evidence of your salvation, right? Yeah. And the reformers frequently said, we are saved by faith alone, but not by faith. That is alone. Right. If our faith, quote faith is not accompanied by works. It is not a genuine faith. Yeah. And I think about Jesus saying, you will, you can identify them by their fruit. Right. It's all throughout scripture. I think and we'd maybe have not noticed it. I know I didn't for a long time like you said. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to remember this doesn't mean that we're going to be perfect in this lifetime, right? We won't and. We do fall into sin. And when we said that should not be an automatic reason for us to say, I'm not really saved, you know, go into this year. No, we all battle sin every single day, even as believers until the day when we see Jesus. But the thing that we have to realize as we look at our lives. It's not that we never sin. But the, the life of a believer follows a trajectory of holiness right there might be bumps in the road. But if you could look at the life of a believer on a graph you'd kind of have this slope upward, and there might be little dips where like oops fell into something there. Yeah. And it's not a perfectly straight line. But if you could look overall it has this trajectory towards holiness. It's moving in an upward direction. I really, really love that the trajectory of holiness and I've really clung onto that because I can kind of wrestle over to speak. Frustrated over my own sin patterns. Yeah, but that's when we lean on God's grace moment by moment, because we are not going to live perfect lives. And right. I think about, you know Jesus when he taught his cycles, how to pray and, you know, with the Lord's prayer and part of the Lord's prayer is asking for forgiveness. Yeah. And so part of our conversion is repentance. It's recognizing are sent agreeing with God's thoughts of what sin is then turning away, making a commitment against an engaging in that battle against the flesh. And this is why I John three six says, no one who abides in him keeps on sending no one keeps on sending has either seen him or known him. And this is that distinction between just receiving, Jesus as your savior and then receiving him as your Lord. And that was just really helpful for me to realize that there is stiff. Between him as my savior, m my Lord, because he has to be my Lord. Which means I'm living, my life under his lordship, which beckens obedience on my part to him now every single day. Yeah. And, you know, I think sometimes we push back against that idea. Like we want Jesus to be our savior, but not our Lord. I have to say, I think God has been teaching me a lot about this recently and really giving me great comfort in the fact that Jesus, is my Lord and not only my savior, because I think about it this way. Okay. If God is my father, he is going to desire, Mike growth. You know, like I desire for my daughter to grow and to mature. And if thought is my father, the same is true of him towards me. And so what that means is that I know that everything that I experience, if he's Lord of my life, and he desires to grow in holiness. Everything that I. Reinstates is part of his loving and fatherly care to make me. Holy even the things I don't understand. And that is comfort to know that these things aren't random. They're not outside of God's control, but they're actually for my good and Mike growth. And so you know what that means? That means that when I experience, trials and suffering, even that is part of God's fatherly care for me and making be holy, I think about I Peter chapter one versus six and seven that says, in this you rejoice though now for a little while if necessary you have been grieved by various trials so that the tested genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold parishes, though. It is tested by fire may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. And I love that verse in that it says we go through these things if necessary because sometimes we can think. Like the stuff is meaningless that I'm going through this pain is is meaningless. It's senseless. But God is saying this is necessary for your holiness. This is necessary for your growth, and for your maturity, and for your good, ultimately for your joy that you may be true son, a true, daughter of God, and, you know, that means that he is working for our holiness in the big things, and in the little things. So, like, for example, when I just really needed sleep, and then my daughter woke up, God's using that to sanctify me to make me holy or when I experience a conflict in a relationship, and it's difficult to navigate. And I don't know what to do, and there's pain, and I've been hurt I just want that to go away. And I wish it had never happened. But I can remind myself and take heart in knowing that God is us. That it's necessary to make me holy that this is part of his fatherly care for me when I get stuck in rush hour traffic, God is using that to sanctify me and me. And that gives us hope for all of life's moments, the big ones, the little ones, the joys, and the frustrations tragedies, the annoyances all have a purpose, and so it's not that we live part of our life for God. And then the rest were just kind of making it through or doing our own thing. But pan, all of our lives are worship to guide and all of our lives are for our sanctification and for our holiness. That's what it means to live our lives as a living sacrifice. Right. That all of our lives are working towards walking in obedience to God, as we are being sanctified, and made more and more. Holy, yeah. I really love that just, you know, sometimes sanctify -cation can feel slow and hard. But I love what you said, just remembering that God is loving father, and he desires are sancta Shen, and I was just reminded of Galicians five one that said for freedom crisis, set us free stand firm, therefore in to not submit, again, to a yoke of slavery, because I think back to, you know, the lordship idea of how people might not like that, right? Just coming under his lordship. Oh, this obedience all of this thought there's no freedom their but realize like that is true freedom lies. Like he is a loving father that wants us to enjoy him. And that's where it's true joy is right? He doesn't want us to keep walking in the things that are going to be harmful to us. Yeah. So it's just like a good parent who sets boundaries for their kids might not like them. But if they're good boundaries it's protection for them, and it's ultimately for their joy, right? And so this pursuit of holiness, we don't want it to seem like. It's this drudgery or like something that's distasteful, but it's for our joy. It's for good, and it's a Mark of a true believer. And we'll see that as we partner with him in the study in obedience to his word. We're going to see him bear fruit in our lives. And this is good works that we're talking about is the fruit of the spirit. Like in glaciers five twenty two twenty three love joy peace patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, and self control. I mean, those are not negative things. These are things we want and, you know, he's the one that bears this fruit in our lives, as we pursue holiness. And, and he's gonna give us the grace live a holy life. And one of my favorite versus is Philippians two twelve thirteen that says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. And this is a comforting verse to me because it just leaves me an offer of God, that you would use my little efforts, but it reminds me that he is the one that gives me the will to even work, and he is the one that accomplishes it from start to finish. That's a great comfort to me. But is it seems like a paradox in that verse? Right. And we are called to walk in obedience as God works in. Yeah. So I think it's important to realize like when we say it's a work of God, but isn't remove our human responsibility. Right. We have a responsibility to fight against our said by his power, right to, to follow him, and walk in holiness as he empowers us to do that. And I think that we really do have to fight against apathy because we can kinda fall into this idea of thinking. Well, my sins are forgiven is finished all is paid. So I don't have to do anything, right. Chris paid at all. I'm good. But we have to fight against that tendency to apathy because once again, Christ did not die to get you a free ticket into heaven Christ. His very life for you to be holy like there is an end goal to this. Right. But we are called to a life of holiness. And if we think about it, why would we want anything different? Why wouldn't we want to walk in that holiness? Yeah. Apathy really cheapens grace and just to realize, like man knows a very costly, grace. Costs Christ his life and just to remember that God doesn't give us commandments just to have all these opportunities to disobey and, and repent and lean on his grace. He gives us these commandments to obey, and it's for our good and for our Choi. Right. And he's going to empower us to say no to send we're partnering with him in that way. And he is gracious to give us the Holy Spirit to persevere until the end. John ten twenty nine. Jesus says my father, who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the fathers hand, and he's talking about a sheep here. So we're not on this journey alone. Right. He's going to help us persevere to the end. Exactly. And, you know, as we undergo this process of sanctification, our worship actually begins to be transformed. Right. We talked about how we are called to live. Our lives and service, and of worship to God. And as we are sanctified our desires change. And we begin to worship God more and turn away from our ideals, and the springs glory to God. And I think back on our worship episode where we said that we become like what we worship, right? And this is the awesome thing that as we worship God, we become more and more like him. And so we go to his word, and we see who he is there. We, we worship through the things that we do we gathered together as believers in worship together. And as we worship God, we become more and more like him, we become more and more. Holy right? That's Second Corinthians. Three team where it says, you know, we become like Christ. We better immature by gazing at Christ by beholding him. Right. And practically, there are ways that scripture tells us that we can behold God, and become more like. Him. So like, practically, what is this look like one is we go to scripture as we go to the word of God. This is a book about him and we go to it. And we say, what does this reveal about who got is, what is real about Christ? We go, and we look to the gospel, every single day, go to God's word, we see who he is. And as we behold him bear, which is the primary means there, which God reveals himself is areas word then we'd become transformed. And you know, we can also behold God in other ways as well. These should never replace scripture. But these can be supplements to scripture, I believe, and one of them is by looking at him in nature, you know, Romans one tells us that nature reveals what can be known about God has character, and so as we see what he's created. We see the character of the creator day. Are we even see who got is through the people that he has created? We know that people are created in the image of God. Which means that we reflect many of his attributes exactly. And so we have made it all the way to my favorite step of the process, which who's glorify -cation. So we get to talk about the future element of our salvation so quick recap. We were chosen we were called we were justified we are being sanctified and one day when Jesus Christ returns once again, we will be glorified. And the truth of our glorification is that we will be resurrected from the dead in physical bodies, physical, glorified bodies and they're a lot of different elements to this glorification and one is our spiritual transformation. So when we are justified, we are freed from the penalty of sin right, that we don't have to bear the penalty of death anymore as were being sanctified. We are freed from the. Power of said that we can say no to it. But when Christ returns, we will be freed from the presence of said, there will be no temptation to send there will be no war within ourselves anymore. There will be no sinful desires pan out. I'm like, I'm ready for that day. I don't know about you Jesus. Yes. Not to have to, to be wrestling with my own motives of my own heart. Yeah. The fact that we will truly be holy. Yeah. And there's also a physical transformation. You know, a lot of times they think about life after this one, as kind of, like spirits floating around in heaven. And, you know, while there is an element of that, that is true before Jesus returns when he actually returns. Our physical bodies will be resurrected, and they will be transformed in a way they will be renewed. They will be. Perfected. So what this means is that they won't age that they won't be subject to illness or pain, or decay. And this means that people who have suffered with physical disabilities. Those will be no more that those who have suffered from chronic illness, that those will be erased that disease will be a radical added even those days when we've been carrying a baby on our hip, and are lower back, kind of heynen it all of those things are going to be gone. Which is just a beautiful thing. Yeah. I mean so much to look forward to get and, you know, even our environmental be transformed. So we are promised that there is going to be a new heaven, and a new earth. And you know, I think about now the natural disasters that we see even things like pollution. These issues that just play our world that those are going to be gone that the world is going to be made new. Okay. I just thought of allergies. There will be no more allergy God. Absolutely. It's so true. None of that awful, poppy is and ready. Noses. And yeah. All that stuff is going to be gone the common cold on. But, you know, the world itself is going to be renewed. It's going to be perfected, it's going it's going to be glorious and, you know, we see a picture of this new, heavens, and new earth, and revelation twenty one where it says, then I saw a new heaven, and a new earth for the first heaven, and the first earth had passed away, and the sea, was no more. And I saw the holy City, New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death shall be no more. Neither shall there. Be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore for the former things have passed away and he who was seated on the throne. Said, behold, I am making all things new, and that really is the hope of our glorification that God will make all things new that just stirs our affections. Right. We're longing for this glorification to come. But it's not just this future thing that has no importance for our lives right now. Right. We can live in light of the hope of the resurrection. Yeah. You know, when we are filled with this living hope it changes the way we live, it compels us to hold everything with an open handed freezes to be generous, because we know that our hope is not in this life. It really does have everyday implications. Right. Yeah. And that's guaranteed in these verses from Roman say those whom he justified he also glorified. And I love it. That's in the past tense. It's as good as done. Yeah. We haven't seen glorification yet, but for all intents and purposes. His finished. Yeah. It's completed because of the work of Christ. And so, yeah, why would we need to hold onto money as if it's all that we have why would we need to hold onto our possessions? We can be generous that also gives us incredible hope in the midst of our suffering. You know, I hear those, those versus about how he wipes away every tear, there will be no more mourning or crying or pain, or death, but scripture tells us that the things that are happening now are actually contributing to that glorification that they are bringing about this glory that suffering uniquely brings about. So I think about I'm sure I've quoted this a million times, but Second Corinthians, four. It says, so we do not lose heart. This is the hope of glorification for us right now. And are suffering, though? Our outer self is wasting away. Our inner self is being renewed day by day bats, the sanctification right there. Right. We're daily being renewed. Right. And it says for this light momentary affliction is preparing for us in eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal, and so as we look around, and as we lose things as we face the, the decay of our bodies as we look in the mirror and see that our hair is turning gray. And our skin is wrinkling or we get back cancer diagnosis, or whatever it may be. We can say we do not lose heart because this is producing something glorious. That would not be produced otherwise, and not only that, but we know that as we lose these things, whether it be our health our finances that nothing can take away our eternal inheritance in Jesus Christ. And that's what we look forward to, you know, first Peter chapter one describes the inheritance that we have saying that we have a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ to an inheritance, that is imperishable, undefined, and unfair trading kept in heaven for you who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. And so this is that element of our salvation that's ready to be revealed its glorification. It is that future element of our inheritance that will not perish, that cannot be defiled by sin, and that will never fade away. And I think all of this can be applied to the suffering, and evil that we see in this world. You know, our hearts can just grow so heavy when we see the broken est and just sheer evil around us, especially now, I think this is so applicable, like right now in our country. But to think that all the things that we see going wrong in the world. It's going to be made. Right. Right. Then it's a good thing that Jesus going to return as a righteous judge. And we can be certain that no injustice is gonna scape him, right. He is going to make all things right. And, and all of the decay of the world will be renewed, and it's going to be glorious, I think of Romans eighteen that says four I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. And so in those moments of just where feels hopeless, or we feel hopeless for our world. That's when we can remember that. No suffering in this present time is going to compare with the glory that's going to be revealed. Yeah, you're right, like this is a heavy time right now and I have found myself overcome really with grief over some of the. Injustice that we see in our world and the broken necess-. And it seems senseless a lot of times. But we sang about him be thou my vision, and some of those lines riches. He'd not nor man's empty praise thou mine, inheritance now, and always, and then the last verse panic. This is just the hope of eternity. It says high king of heaven, my victory, one may, I reach heaven's joys. Oh, bright heaven sun heart of my own heart, whatever. Befall still be my vision. A ruler of all, and like what are minder that in everything that we experience, whatever, befall that God is the ruler and that he has joy? And he has renewal that's coming, so good. And, you know, I have to recommend here this essay slash Serban that CS Lewis wrote called the weight of glow. And I think I actually quoted this may be one of our most recent episodes. Yeah, I'm but this was really instrumental in shaping my faith, and, you know, Steph, you talk about that scales, falling from the is moment, reading this was that moment for me where I, I experienced a joy in Salva that I had never experienced before, and it really talks about this idea of our glorification, and that we're going to share in the glory of Christ for all of eternity. When we are glorified, I think, CS Lewis talks about us being an ingredient in the divine glory, which is a mind blowing concept, but it society that we are going to be totally approved by God in our glorification, because we actually will be totally a hundred percent. Holy. You know we. We are approved by God now because we are because we have the righteousness of Christ. Right. But we still battle that said, right? But that's gonna be gone, there's going to be nothing wrong with us. And I think that culture promotes this idea that we need to believe. There's nothing wrong with us now. Yeah. Right. We're perfect just the way we are. Don't let anybody tell you that you're flawed your flawless through. But to say that there's nothing wrong with us now. That's just false hope and it really limits our joy. Because what do we have to look forward to if this is kind of like the culmination of this is good as it's gonna get man? I don't know if this life is worth living, and, you know, just hearing that it makes me realize that that's like, a, a tool of the enemy because it's interception. Because our hearts long for Christ and glorification and forgot to rain and it's just to saving to say we can have that now or or that we do have that now. And it's just it's. It's total. False hope. Yeah. And it makes me think about when Paul says, and I Corinthians fifteen nineteen that, you know, if we have no hope in Christ, if there, if there is no resurrection, but there's no hope for the future in Christ. And there's no glorification. We are of all people most to be pitied. We're the most pitiable of all people because if this life is all that we have there is no hope there. And so let's get out of that mindset of let me have my best life now. Or if we just have this idea that, you know, we can become on our own the best that we can be me. And that is no hope at all because we have no hope for this future amazing promise that we have. But if we, if we saw that, if we recognized that what our hope is in. We could go through this life with real hope we could go through this life with our is lifted toward God toward. Kreis and toward cool ori-? And that's strenght persevere. Right. That, that, that would make this life so much more meaningful. Yeah. And it puts perspective too are suffering, and to arcing to fixation. Yeah, yes, this is our best life. Now, then goodness heaven must not be our final destination. Right. Right. But when we say that we can look forward to this glorification, that is a done deal for believers the Mets saying, of course, this is not our best life. Now we have this future with Christ worshipping him for eternity nothing compares to that. No amount of goodness on this earth. Could even compare to that kind of glory. Absolutely. Well, you know, as we look at this whole order of salvation, this whole process, I hope, and I pray that your heart has been encouraged and that you're. Our hope has been expanded that your joy has been increased. As your view of salvation has hopefully been expanded as well. There's so much joy to be found in our salvation, it's not just those one time event that we can check off. And so, then we're good to go, and that's a beautiful thing. That's a beautiful thing that our salvation informs every area of our lives. And you know, we would love to hear from you. We would love to hear how, how God has been teaching you in this area. We would love for you to post on social media using even quote graphics from this episode that you can download from the daily grace co op and just tag at the daily grace go. Use the hashtag daily grace podcast and join our conversation, we want to hear from you. Yeah. All of the scripture, references noted in this particular episode and all of other resources will be in our show notes. So go ahead and check that out either an I tunes or. Our website, WWW dot daily. Grace, podcasts dot com and yeah, we look forward to having another conversation with you guys next Tuesday.

Holy Spirit Joanna Jesus murder Stephanie partner John frame James Shen Likud Google Peter Ordos saluda LaCroix Julia mount Jesus Jesse editor
Wisdom for the Everyday: Scripture Memory & Motherhood | Ep. 127

Risen Motherhood

20:27 min | 1 year ago

Wisdom for the Everyday: Scripture Memory & Motherhood | Ep. 127

"The ministry of risen motherhood is funded by generous donors, if you like this podcast, please consider joining them at risen, motherhood dot com slash give. Motherhood is hard one second. We think we're doing a good enough job and the next leap elec- at the worst mom on the planet. Which is why we lead the refreshing truth of the gospel to be repeated over and over giving us hope in the everyday moments, so mama. Whether you're have been cult copy or during a sink full of dishes. We hope you'll find encouragement and laughter here. This is the risen motherhood podcast. Thanks for joining us. Brand's? My name is Karen hodgin. I have the privilege of serving as the chair of the risen motherhood board alongside some extraordinarily gifted Ford. Members also blessed to be surrounded by a lot of new light go to a lot of baby showers. I sit in the circle, and I see things and I wonder where was that clever fill in the right product when I had by children twenty plus years ago, and even though the baby product industry has come a long way. But I really wish I had back then was a resource like risen motherhood. Don't get me wrong. I was blessed to have good gospel. Mom, friends who reminded me about the hope of the gospel in the days, very long risen motherhood is a good gospel friend. They help us think Biblically about how the gospel applies. The majestic and the Monday moments of motherhood and risen motherhood is also a good gift that I love to give to the young moms in my life. So would you join me and giving a gift? It will make any ternal impact the risen by the administered currently runs entirely through donations. And that's the Lord leads. I want to encourage you to give a one time gift or even better to give monthly at risen, motherhood dot com. Backslash gift they have a new initiative. I'd like to take a moment to highlight where you can give an honor for memory of someone you love now with one hundred dollars or more one time gift risen motherhood will send a handwritten card to someone that you care about. It's a wonderful way to recognize those special milestones in light by making a contribution tourism motherhood for birthdays, baby showers mother's day, which is just right around the corner or even just to celebrate all the kids sleeping through the night. You can bring the hope of the gospel to moms all over the world while showing someone you love and care or you can give memory of a parent grandparent of friend, or even a miscarriage it a special way to honor and recognize the disease while furthering the goss-. Commission, head arisen motherhood dot com slash give to learn more about how you can do this. So thanks for carton with us friend because your gifts are going to help them. Mom's listening today to better understand her column by quipping her with God's word. You also serve as good gospel friend, reminding her that the gospel really does make a difference in every aspect of motherhood and most importantly, your gift will not only impact this woman, but carefully it will multiply by impacting the next generation. Well, hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of risen motherhood. I'm Laura and how my sister-in-law Emily here. Hey, and we just want to give a big thanks to Karen for being willing to do the intro for pledge week. It was super kind of her as she mentioned you can head to risen motherhood dot com slash give to learn more. If you'd like to join us in our ministry, so okay. To today's show we are talking about a really fun, but also sometimes hard topics scripture memory. Yes. And I think it's particularly feels hard and motherhood because so many of the things that were met with everyday are urgent like, I need my shoe tied now or need a snack right now or icy. The mounting pile of dishes growing out of my sink. And I'm starting to set things down along the counter, and that needs to be done right now and something like scripture memory just feels like it can always go to the back of the list. Yeah. Oh, definitely something that requires you to slow down, you know. And I think that that is very very difficult in motherhood, and it requires a lot of thinking, guess it. Does Mike's my brain hurt our mental capacity has real limits. I think when we're not getting as much sleep as normal or win. We're honestly just really busy. I think with a lot of things that are important like carrying for other people, but our brain power can go to that. And it can feel like we have no more left. Yeah. Totally. And I think to the other hard thing for me in scripture that there are sometimes more rewarding things for me to learn. Or things that I see more immediate results in things. Like, I don't know even just like cooking meal or decorating or doing something like planning hardier. I don't know. But you know, like, I think that there's this element of scripture memory that it can be so difficult because both it took a lot of time. And it takes a lot of brain power and have to slow down. But then also there's a lot of review involved in it. And it's just something that I feel like, oh, I kind of can one and done this meal tonight. And I never have to think about it again. Yeah. But it's really similar to other areas of life where we learn a big, you know, I can't even think back to college when I was trained to become a special education teacher. And there was a point. I went through when I couldn't remember all the different diagnoses and all the different ways that that may impact my teaching strategy. And so in a real life situation. I would have to literally go back to my text books or go back to the internet and search it, and I couldn't really do my job until I went back and looked at that word for word. And so. Could kind of make real life responses cumbersome, and that's the reality of scripture memory that. We don't often think of today that it's like learning anything else until it is like in our minds in our heart. We're always kind of almost unable to use it in this really nimble way because we're going back to look and see what the word says, which we want to keep going back not saying pan enter textbook. But I just I think you guys get what I'm saying. I've just it's really helpful to have it with you wherever you are. I like to think of scripture Marie a little bit like exercising. So that is where I remind myself, although I'm not great at exercising. All the time that it pays off dented in so many ways. So it's not just so that I can do another push up or not pass out during a workout program online it so that I can run and play with my kids, and I can feel strong enough to carry my daughter on a hike or whatever is I feel like putting in the work of exercising or scripture memory. It is for not for the work itself. In the moment. It's really for all other areas of my life where I feel like there, I will reap a lot of benefit. Yes. There is definitely a lot of benefits. Some that we are going to dive into for today's show. But before we kind of jump in wanted to define scripture just a little bit. Because we realized that sometimes we use a lot of different words and phrases like. We're talking about the guys word. Yeah. God's word the law Kenan the word of Christ. And if you're new to this topic had made the word of Christ, very often. Well, yeah. Like let the word of Christ. Well, richly quoting scripture, boom, boom. Don't usually praise him. That's that's more godly than me. Oh, my okay. So basically if you're new to this. I think it can kind of feel like are these all different things are these separate things. What are we talking about is the bible different from scripture, and what we just kind of went to lay out today is just a definition for what we're talking about. Yes. So when we talk about memorizing scripture, we're talking about memorizing, the canon or the body of writing that God has given to rule the church that's from John frame, systematic theology. And essentially, it's the sixty six books in the bible that you likely have bound together on a bookshelf somewhere in your home. And that is that's what we're talking about. When we talk about memorizing scripture God's word or all this other. Words rate. So let's jump in. And just give some reasons why we should memorize scripture with all of the busy things we have going on. We've talked a little bit about textbooks and exercising. What does God's word? Tell us. The first one is from psalm one nineteen so I'm just going to read it here very quickly. But how can a young man keep his way pure by guarding it? According to your word with all my heart. I have sought you do not let me stray from your commandments. I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not send against you blessed. Are you allure teach me your statutes with my lips? I proclaim all the judgments of your mouth rejoice in the way of your testimonies as much as an all riches. I will meditate on your precepts. And regard your ways, I will delight in your statutes. I will not forget your word is such a compelling picture of just the goodness of God's word and the way that it transforms us when it's on our minds and our hearts and something we can think about all the. Time which kind of transitions us to the New Testament verse that we wanted to share which is Colossians three sixteen. Let the word of Christ while in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom singing songs, and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. So this was kind of a model given in the early church of just how this truth relate, transforms them from the inside out and impacts their whole community and really important ways. And another reason we want to memorize scripture is because we're called to image Christ in this life, and we see that Jesus knew scripture himself, and he used it. You know in Matthew four when Jesus was being tempted by Satan in the wilderness, he spoke scripture to Satan from memory every time that was what he responded to the temptation with we see in Matthew four Manch on that live by bread alone. But by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And then another time you shall not put the larger God to the test and a third. Time in Matthew four you shall worship the larger God and him only shall you serve. So we see this like perfect example of Jesus fighting temptation and all he used was God's word. Another interesting fact is in the New Testament, he quoted the Old Testament one hundred eighty times, which is just like I could do that. If I tried. And when you read through you see him like using the Old Testament scriptures like answer questions and correct wrong thinking, a he uses it to like, explain the circumstances and things that are going on kind of past present and future. He uses it to respond to criticism. And we already said resist temptation to help him just obey God. And also to teach other people about God's will implant. So it's just this incredibly robust an important part of who Jesus was and his ministry and the words that he used so it's something we definitely wanna model. So we wanted just talk through some benefits of memorizing scripture. We feel like these are compelling reasons to want to store God's word in our heart. And sometimes we need to remember all of the wonderful benefits that the work of putting in memorizing scripture won't will pay off. And so the first thing is just like that it gives you words to remember the gospel. Sometimes we're kind of getting stuck in anger. Pity or sadness or different things like that. We don't know how to reset our hearts or pull out of sort of a bad moment and relying on scripture is a great way to be able to preach the gospel to ourselves because sometimes we're kind of forget truth or we get a little bit twisted or we're not exactly certain like what that truth is, especially when our emotions aren't in line. I think with with God's word. And so it is a great chance for us to pull out the words that we have stored in our heart from God's word, and he promises to provide all that we need. And so the Holy Spirit is often working through that scripture that were reciting in our head. Yeah. I think another way that it helps us is just I guess building upon that helping us resist temptation and actually -opay God. Which is something that I think Jackie hill Perry brought up in her interview with us from a long time ago about identity in that got always provides a way of escape when we're intimidation. And sometimes we're kinda. Looking for like our circumstance to change Reynaud direction. And sometimes the way of escape that he provides is remembering his word, and that it's his very word that that helps us kind of turn and repent or escape the situation we read in Hebrews four twelve it says for the word of God is living and active sharper than any two edged sword piercing to the division of soul and spirit of joints, and of Meroe in discerning, the thoughts and intentions of the heart. So that's something. We talk a lot about risen motherhood, like check, your heart. Discern your heart. We'll what helps us do that. It's God's very word. Yep. Another reason to memorize scripture is just that it gives you words in ministry. I know that having a tool kit for scripture in in kind of my arsenal has been so helpful as I've worked to evangelize. I have not done that as much as I wish I would. But in those moments, it has been really wonderful to be able to go back to something like the Romans road or there are a few. Other different programs out there that help you memorize a selection of verses that will help communicate the four parts of the gospel. And so as we are doing a vandalism or making disciples or just training other people in God's word having scripture, I think is really helpful for me to feel confident into have boldness as I interact with others because I know that like the wizards speaking are not my own their God's word. And so they are truthful they are powerful that in that the Holy Spirit is working through those. Yeah. To build on that. It's just that friendships or relationships can put it because a lot of times, you know, maybe you're sitting with your mom friend or you have a family member, and that person is experiencing grief or sorrow. I mean, I know there some common things and motherhood that we often face like miscarriage or struggles with infertility or maybe someone's adoption is moving slowly or they're going through a difficult diagnosis or they're discouraged in their marriage. And even when we can't relate specifically sometimes we can go back to. Scripture and find words of comfort and of love and support. And these are not words to just put a band aid on their problem or just, you know, give them this all-everything is going to be okay. But to truly meet them and give them encouragement. So that they would have hope another one is just with our children. You know, how do we teach our children? What we don't know. We can't allow tenths were met with situations where we don't have the bible handy. Or even if we did not even know exactly what to look up, but hiding God's word in our hearts will help us as we are equipping and training and raising our children we can use it in discipline and council in I think to this just models a great practice for our kids of seeing mom value. It shows them as they grow older like what they should be valuing as well. Another one that comes up a lot and motherhood is just the knee for wisdom and decision making. So again, a lot of these things feel like great areas. And as we know the word of God, it can help us. Remember? Oh, yeah. This is. Is something that I should hold fast to and this is a clear command from the Lord. And then we can eat more easily discern things that are grey areas where you might need to consider what's going in our heart as we already discussed earlier in the show. The scriptures can help us do. God's word says that it will bring blessing this isn't necessarily health or wealth. Josh won't one eight talks about how this book of the law, Sean depart from your mouth, and it goes on to say for then you will make your way prosperous, and you will have good success. So this doesn't mean monetarily necessarily. This means the blessing is greater love and care and delight in God. Which is really the greatest gift of all another thing. Is it strengthens Oliver spiritual discipline? Yeah. So the more that we have God's word stored in our heart. It helps us pray. Because then we know what to pray because we always wanted to be focusing our prayers on what God has already revealed in his word and asking him things based on that in bible study helped us make connections and draw conclusions because you reading. Old Testament passage, and you're like, oh, the sounds familiar, and then you can even if you need to use handle Google, you can find that scripture helps you with personal meditation on God and his attributes and overall it just helps you love God more when you can be just sitting on your couch, maybe of a sick kid on your lap. And you're able to draw to mind some truth from his word, and really, you know, chew on that for a little while and think on it. It really does help increase your love for God. Yes. We want to jump in very quickly to a couple of practical pieces. We don't have a lot of time for this. But we are going to put a lot in our show notes for you guys. There have been tons of people that have talked about at tons of books to read like little easy read books that you can check out for tips on memorizing, but we're just going to talk a little bit about the way that we do it. And I think the first thing is study and understand the passage. So I'm going to go to the work to memorize something mixture, the understand the context of it that you have studied in kind of get it. In a way that you feel like you have a handle on it. So that when it comes down to actually memorizing, the meaning will help you remember, I think that's my tip rate. There is I've pretty much only memory scripture by just reading it over and over and over again or listening to it. And a lot of times that happens as I'm studying a book of the bible because I have to read it so much to get to that point of like interpretation and application that I look back in hindsight. And it's like, oh, I knew it. I spent so much time in it Emily's always like whipping out little phrases of sort of. Sure. Like can't tell you where it's told me she's like Google. But that's hopeful, you know, to have those those phrases captured, and I think another quick tip is to involve your kids as Mon Mike were around our kids all day and often they are a lot better at memorizing scripture than we are at least mine are better than than I am. And so I think it's helpful because they get really excited I think of shared this before. But but when I am in the rhythm of scripture memory, Mike kids will get vitamins after they memorize their scripture. We practice for the day and go meet vitamin so many vitamins, I'm vitamins, they're like snoop remotivate memory scripture. So that has been really helpful for me because my kids want to than I'm held accountable. And so that's just like super practical tip for you. Yes. Definitely head over to show notes for many, many, more ideas. But we wanted to give this word at the end because I know after hearing show like this and even after recording the show after this, my first instinct is to feel really guilty and burdened and really just like. Oh, man. This is another thing that I am not doing well that I'm failing out and disappointing. God. And all these different things go through our minds. So we wanted to stop in say like moms. We are justified by grace through faith. And so this means that God declares who he is. And he takes initiative on our behalf while we were still dead in our sins, and after we're free, then he gives us the expectations in commands and commissions. So whenever we hear things like go memorize scripture, it can sound kind of like, well, if you store up God's word in his heart, then he's going to like, you accept you or help you. But it's really the other way around like, he loves you and accepts you and helps you in Christ. I so with that mindset, we can excitedly go and memory scripture. Okay. Well, we hope that you are motivated to get started on that today. Head over to our show notes tons of resources on this. You probably have lots of practical questions while we have answered them on our show notes. Most of them. I don't know what all you have risen, motherhood dot com. You'll find the link to our show notes there. And then, of course, check us out on social media at risen motherhood across all the platforms, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram have agreed guys.

Mike Jesus Karen hodgin Emily Matthew Google Ford Meroe Kenan John frame Laura Marie vandalism Jackie hill Perry Facebook Oliver Josh Instagram
#36 - A Lesson in Pronouns: The Doctrine of Union with Christ

Knowing Faith

40:54 min | 1 year ago

#36 - A Lesson in Pronouns: The Doctrine of Union with Christ

"You're listening to knowing faith a podcast of the village church. This is Cal Worthington. Joined by my co host, gene, Wilkin, JT English. Listen, we love getting interact with listeners of knowing faith online. We often use the hashtag knowing faith podcast try to bring all of that interaction together. And so if you're listener to knowing faith, and you want to jump on and join the discussion you can use the hashtag knowing faith podcast hashtag knowing faith cod cast and on today's episode. We're going to discuss the doctrine of union with Christ. Why it matters what significant for the life of the believer? And where you go in the bible actually export. We hope you enjoy it. Okay. So Lydia came to me a week ago. And she was like, hey, do you wanna see my hideout, and I was like what? No, she wouldn't say how clubhouse and immediately clued me into a part of childhood is like clubhouse was this part of y'all like did you have kids? I mean, your kid not do you have kids. I do Kyle. You did your kids club hat like they were there. Living together down at school, right? Yeah. That's that's their clubhouse came to do. You wanna see my clubhouse? And I was like what is she talking about? And I realize that she wants sometimes she watches clips from the Mickey house thing, and that must have been where she got that word. But so I go into her room. And she like we have a closet with the sliding doors ends as she got behind there. And she was like welcome to my clubhouse was like thanks can I come in. And she said always like. There will be a password. Don't say that that's the next evolution of the clubhouse thing is hopefully that with little girls to just with little boys. Well, my kids we always built we and they built blanket for it. Yes. The elaborate blanket for doing that with Thomas either dad. Yeah. I don't know that they ever had a an actual dedicated space in the house because we were kind of all jammed in there. Well, Lydia crafted her own closet. That's her clubhouse now. And it's funny because learn I've been joking. There are some ways. I'm sure you guys have done this or doing this. You did this. But like, I'm always kind of like trying to spin a situation in talking to her about like Jesus, but Lauren was like, I think that sometimes you're forcing the situation like she has a she has like a bunch of stuffed animals, and there's tags on the stuffed animals. One of the brands of the stuffed animals is called jelly cat. Like, a stuffed animal brand. And the jelly cat logo was on. There is like a scary, looking cat cage. The cat look scary. And she wouldn't she stopped playing with dolls because she was like, hey, like shoes. I don't like these cat it the the dolls are fine. But it's the cat logo on the tag. And so I was like look daddy's gonna solve this problem for you. So I cut the tags off and brought her back, and I was like was Lydia. You don't have to be afraid of these anymore because I cut the tag shank to these. Yes. And then I was like I in my head was like, maybe this is a moment. So I was like Lydia. Do you know how you were scared of this cat that was on here? And it was like on this thing, and I and daddy cut it away. Well, we have this thing in. I do. Was like we have this hearts. God guy cuts that away. So that we don't have to be afraid of he longer and she was just like, no cat. Like, of course, it was like totally irrelevant. She was just like she just wanted to be assured that the cats weren't there any longer, but every do stuff like that. Where you start trying to explain the gospel or Jesus to your kidding euros that maybe you're trivializing it the act. Like, maybe you're taking something really profound in making mock accidentally making a mockery of it that never happened. I mean, certainly I have my own massive massive parenting. Villes maybe I just need is that way is that a mass spare. What I want? Trivializing the gospel. Okay. Thomas going through the I think this is for new city catechism the kids version. Yes. And it's some he's really interested in he calls it our questions he wants to do it. A couple times a day. It's not so much of trivializing the content. It's just like he gets disinterested. Very very quickly. Small totally and it's fine. It's just a matter of like is my any grim one type going to force us to do it. Or he's going to March through this. No matter what. Or to say. Yeah. Let's throw stuff at dad, whatever, you know, whatever it is. So yeah. Now, I never made any parenting mistakes. But it's interesting to hear yours. They always cathartic to talk to you about these things. Listen, I have to tell you. It bothers me that we are thirty six episodes in and we're just getting to the doctrine of union. But we aren't really understand what you said that we haven't done a full episode on. But we've talked about it a lot. Yeah. It's basically been in every episode. Well, yeah. You couldn't eaten that lows before? We started recording. Let the record show. It's okay. Yeah. But hang on hang on somebody gives a definition. What is what do? We mean when we say union with Christ. What is the doctrine of the union of Christ? Well, yeah. I mean, we could probably define it a lot of different ways. But probably the broadest thing that we could say the doctrine of union with Christ. Is that doctrine that states that we inter in by grace through faith into Jesus Christ? Meaning that salvation is not just something that God gives us South Asia. Something that we receive all the blessings of salvation are received in Christ Jesus. So it was not cleared up for me. I need you to okay. Working on it. Here's Berkoff definition. Oh, he's my boy. That's why I I look this up just for you. Union with Christ is the intimate vital in spiritual union between Christ and his people in virtue of which he is the source of their life and strength and the blessedness of their salvation. So that's still fairly complex and complicated. What he's trying to say. And I think what union union with crisis trying to say is that that in him or with him language in the bible is the most important language as it relates to our salvation John frame says in crisis, the most general thing that can be said about a believer in Christ that they are in Christ Jesus to kind of just give another 'cause I know we sometimes like when we're doing this just as a listener note, you'll be like JT will throw definitional be like you could also define it this way. It's because like we're all like we're throwing out definitions because they're at odds with one another. But because we're just trying to be like, well, but maybe this will make sense teams. Right. Right. So like the birth of definition is great union with Christ is I have this written down this notes that. I wanna teach the believer's identification participation and Inc. Identification saying that this person is identifying with Jesus and Jesus is identifying with this individual participation that it's not just a static thing. Felines often talked about a dynamic or vital is the one in Berkoff that it's a it's not just something that has happened. Where like now we're like on a register in heaven. That's like Jesus name over the top. And I'm number whatever, whatever. Right. But it's a it's an ongoing thing, there's a participatory element K. And incorporation the incorporation side is that we are been brought into the body of Jesus we have been incorporated. Not just we're in him in terms of like he is our covenant head which will get to. I'm sure here in a few moments that he now is our Representative before God. But that he is incorporated into his body, meaning his body, the church, the body of the church and so believers identification participation and incorporation with within through and into. The reason that I've put all those prepositions in is because they're the prepositions that are most commonly used in the New Testament talk about this. So you'll see with Christ. You'll see in Christ you'll see through Christ and you'll see into Christ. And this union, this identification participation corporation is with in through an into the life. The death the resurrection. The ascension and the heavenly session of Jesus that's all saying that like we are United to Christ in every bit of his life dry. So in the life of ministry of Jesus that's a pivotal part of what it means to be United to Christ. Because guess what? In Christ Jesus we are init- to him who Baid perfectly on our behalf and his life and ministry is reflection of that in Christ death. We are knit to the one who has paid the full penalty for sin in Christ resurrection. We are knit to him who has triumphed over death. In Christ, ascension, we are. Knit to him who is in the very presence of the father and increased heavenly session. Right heavily session being Christ ongoing work at the right hand of the father. Now, we are participants in God's mission in the world through his body. So what you're saying is that in some mysterious, but very real sense you were in Christ in the crucifixion, and yes, and when he was healing people. Yes. And when he was obeying the law, and when he was teaching and in his resurrection over the grade and presently his his time in the grave was your time in the grave. Yes. His time in a resurrected body is in will be your time in a restaurant. Yes. What can be said of Christ can be said of me because I am in him. Can I go turn a -tarian first second don't do that here? I'll answer your question because JT has no interest. So then when we speak of union with Christ. We would not say union with the sun, we would say union with Christ. Or would we say union with the sun? Okay. Love to hear what you have to say about this before jumping I would actually love to hear we great. So this gets it something we've talked about a little bit here when we're talking back about like what Jesus has done when the sun God is done kind of like the when I'm at called post apostolic witness right of the new doing New Testament theology. It's perfectly fine for us to treat a synonymous. Jesus Christ the son of God because they are one person. Right. Yeah. It's the same person two natures in one person. But I'm thinking about John one one like M I United with Christ in creation. Wow. This got we got into the hardest stuff right at the beginning. I would not say that. Yeah. Me too. And mostly because it seems like it is the initiative of guide demonstrating his identification with us is the incarnation of it. It's right, right. I think that's really good that. But I think that's something that gets really confusing for people because like one of the I would I would want to know I get where we can see this in the New Testament. I see it throughout the New Testament. Specifically, I read a study on the ladies called it the John's, which I still think is funny, but was first second and third John and you see at ton and your second and third John. But where would I go in the Old Testament? Well. To talk about this. Yeah. Well, okay. So what I can. I can I can I say something else before we go. Yeah. For sure. Okay. So in Fiji's one, which is probably this is this is the mother the ultimate example of union with Christ. I'll just read a portion of Fiji's one in and I'm gonna read it in a way that emphasizes some of the union with Christ linguistics here. Okay. So blessed be the God. And father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. He predestined us four Dopp Shen as sons through Jesus Christ. According to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved in him, we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of grace, which he lavished upon us and always them and insight making known to us the mystery of his will according to his purpose, which he set forth in. Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him things that heaven and things on earth. So before we actually talk about conceptually how this plays out in the Old Testament. I think in one answer to your question are we in Christ before the foundation of the world, we are by virtue of our election in Christ that we are set apart in Jesus Christ chosen in him before the foundation of the world. Now, are we should we read the Old Testament? Or should we read what God is doing in Christ Jesus through the Old Testament as that we are co participants in that work? I'm going to be like just like JT said more hesitant there because the scriptural witness is certainly not as clear. Okay. But are we in Christ Jesus the elect the chosen those who have been predestined for Dopp Shen or one hundred percent in Christ Jesus from the very beginning before the foundation of the world before the beginning. That is true. Now when we talk about how this concept of union of Christ plays out in the Old Testament where? Not getting clear picture in the Old Testament. We are in the new, but that can be said about unnumbered, I mean, all of doctor, but you'd have very clear union with the person. Yes, for sure union with Adam. Yes, you do you have a headship or Representative Representative in Adam participation, right? Absolute and corporation has firmed from the very beginning. Specifically this relates to our human nature, our sinful, human nature. Yes. That we aren't centers because we send we are centers because we are in Adam. Absolutely. This is the we've talked about this on the podcast before. But this is the this huge church history debate that was settled at a council between Augusta and Pelagia talking about union in our sinful nature. It's either Augustinian ISM or original sin or Palladian ISM. And so I think clearly you have this idea of union representation participation in Inc in the Old Testament. Absolutely. And but but it's the bad news, bad news. But there are pictures of good news is the number union with Christ. You are. The offspring of Abraham. And so you're in Israel, and you're in Abraham's offspring, your David would be another picture of representation. Inc participation. He is our covenant head in some sense Osas Moses would be another one. So there are types and anywhere where you seek a humming in. Yeah. Anytime anywhere where you see covenants you're saying a foretaste of what union with crisis going to Intel which is all the spiritual blessings have been secured for you like Israel's life is dependent upon the actions of the king. Yes. Yes. Like, you could be faithful Israelite not worshiping in syncretism or participating in polytheism or participating in any kind of idolatry. But if king David is your life changes. Yeah. Because he's he stands covenant representatives. That's right. Yes. Gen he's one of the people that you know. JT english. That's true. Where did he go to young? Pretty sure it was southern seminary. It was we have a lot of people that are part of our staff that have either are in programs at southern or have completed programs who southern and we have a ton of our members across a variety of life stages who are currently students at southern similar because they make it so easy, and so excessive oil, and if you're looking for sue more theological education, whether an undergrad or masters or even just to get some classes to become a better bible teacher. You can go to southern news website, SP dot EDU, and you can apply using the code knowing faith and have your application fee waived. When I look at the Old Testament, where do you see union with Christ the Old Testament? We would I go. Well, you see the bad news of union with Adam and being in Adam this when Paul's getting around five, it's what is getting in first Corinthians. Fifteen that we were in Adam. But you're getting shadows pictures of what it's going to look like to be pulled into union with Christ. And you're getting the most clearly when it comes to covenant cutting like the great story of Genesis fifteen right where the covenants cut and Abraham was put to sleep goddess cutting coming with Abraham and yet God is the one that goes through the severed sacrificing the picture there is what? Well, if you keep covenant. Then everything that belongs to me by right? I will give you buy gift. But if you don't keep covenant, I will take all the covenant. Curses on your behalf. Well, that's the good news doctor of union with crimes is that. By virtue of our union with Christ. God gives us Jesus. Everything the belongs to the sun just by virtue of who he is. And it's perfect life death resurrection in a sense. And Jesus takes upon himself everything that properly belongs to us. So like Genesis fifteen and the covenant cutting, and then the echoes of that throughout the Old Testament, and my mind, that's where you get to see some of the good news of what union with God and crisis going to look like, although it is just vapor trails glimmer. So Jesus picks up similar themes. I think John fifteen is a great picture of of this understanding of union. He calls his disciples to abide in him. And so it's not just that policy picking this up post death bear resurrection. Ascension there's this really clear picture that Jesus is trying to give your life is found in me. And it's not so much that you need to seek life. In me. It's that your life is going to flow from me until he's making this really clear picture that stay attached to me because I am the source of your life. Yes. Yeah. The essentially the abundant life that we're talking about is life in Jesus that's the whole image of the vine right about a by. Adding when what is John fifteen talking about when it talks about biding its talking about cultivating our union with Christ Jesus, and we're gonna get back to you union, and communion language, and how I think it's helpful advancing this, but I think when we get to the question of where it shows up in the New Testament, that's a lot more clear. Yeah. Because it's all over the place. But Paul a certainly the feeling Jin like the premier theologian for union with Christ. And I think that gets to his conversion story like look at acts nine it says an Exxon that saw was you know, the story saw breathing murders threats. He's on the road to Damascus. He's a persecutor of Christians. And then it says on verse three next nine it says now as he went on his way he approached a mask and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him and fall into the ground. He heard of Saint him. So Saul, why are you persecuting me? And he said who are you Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting now at Saul's conversion would we have we have Jesus confronting saw by identity. Fine with his people. So it's no wonder to me at all that the doctrine of union with Christ becomes this mega paradigm for Paul because it's tied into his conversion good, right? That like from the very moment of Saul's conversion, you're getting Saul who becomes Paul is getting the doctrine of union with Crichton that Jesus radically identifies with his people to such a degree that when solace persecuting Christians Jesus can tell Saul you persecuting me, right? And I think that's absolutely profound when it comes to thinking through the origin of Paul's emphasis because when you get into his letters, I would suggest it's not like this is novel to me people who've been doing work in Paul have been making this case for as long as we've been reading Paul critically, which is of union with Christ is maybe the mega theme of his writings. That's true. I've never anchored in his conversion makes a lot of sense. I've never I've never thought about it that way specifically. I'm sure even heard you talk about it before. But that is making some more sense to me. Now. And you think about all the body metaphors that Paul begins using pistols about mini members. But one body or pictures of marriage pictures of profits in the Postles and foundation being Jesus This is that that that helps me a lot. Yeah. I've never taken a tax before. Well, in the first time, I heard that was it was in a class with Dr Adrian Smith, and he was talking about how are essentially are were story shaped creatures which talk about a lot. And then a lotta times our conversion stores testimony stories are kind of laying the groundwork for the theological emphases life, and he pointed this out was sought. Wow, that's really profound and so just want to give credit Credit's due there. He probably took from somebody else to how it works. Right jump like, which is all kind of moving it along. Well, yeah, we're not making some I don't wanna be now we're doing a penalty. There is a novelty actually the allergy. So when we're doing when we're thinking through the doctor. With cries Fiji's one is a place that you would go to are there other places deletions to twenty okay policy. I that is a one of the things that's hard for us as teachers, but also hard for us just as believers is not become inaugurated versus that were just so familiar with. So try to hear this verse. Freshly I'm not reading it's hopefully quote, right? I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer. I who live but Christ who lives in me. He's saying I experienced the death of Saul of Paul at the crucifixion Jesus that I was in him in a very real participatory way. And I'm now experiencing new life. Why not because of something I've done, but because he is still alive. Yes. That in his resurrection. Essential. I've experienced new birth. Like, he is so closely identifying that he is no longer in Adam. But he is in Christ and everything that could be said about Jesus now can be said about Paul. Yeah. And that's incredibly gloriously true. My goodness. Right. Because a lot of times believers you're like well, hold on. I don't really feel righteous. I don't really feel like especially when believers fall into sin or they've given tation or whatever there's the sense of like, well, I don't actually feel that. I'm righteous any longer. Well, the scriptures are clear that were not fundamentally righteous because of something that we can secure have secured. But because of what God is secured for us and Jesus like Calvin says, it this way it is it is in the same enter assuredly that we are now righteous in him not in respective rendering. Our own just a of our rendering satisfaction to the Justice of God by our own works. But because we are judged in connection with Kreis righteousness, which we have put on by faith that it might become ours. Second corinthians. Five twenty one for our God made him who knew no sin to become Sen.. So that in him, we might become the righteousness of and this is a really so I'm gonna take us to Roman six we talked about this when we that are baptism episode. Two weeks ago Roman six four and five. This is coming right on the heels of Paul arguing about union with Adam and union with Christ that we've died in him we've been made alive in Christ Roman six four and five says this we were buried therefore with him. We were buried with him by baptism into death. In order that just as Christ was raised from the dead. By the gory of the father. We too might walk in his life. Yeah. Connecting the death of Jesus to our death the life of Jesus to our life for if we have been United with him in a death like his we shall certainly be United with him, and it resurrection like his so something that's really important to think about here is an we've already mentioned this a few times in previous podcasts that union with Christ doesn't have implications. Just for justification, it certainly does it also has implications for sanctification that the whole Christ is given is giving us a whole salvation both moving from unjust to justify now between God and others. But also. Unholy to being made holy power Holy Spirit yet, and this is absolutely crucial. And we've taught you talked about this a lot this is making me happy. Right. Because this is this is where you get to how this is an intensely practical doctrine, right? And I I was sitting here thinking as you guys were talking about, you know, Paul's words on this where Jesus says in Matthew twenty five that the righteous will perform their acts of righteousness as though they are doing them for him. And that's that. That's a that's a picture of what scientific ation looks like you know, when I was hungry. You fed me when I was thirsty. You gave me something to drink is that we understand through our union with Christ that we are living the life of Christ, essentially because you look at like, the parable of the good Samaritan is is saying this is what you know. I it's obviously it's a picture of Christ and how he acts toward centers. But then it becomes, you know, he wraps up the pair of the good Samaritan by saying go and do likewise and. Yeah. And going and doing likewise. Means that we then take on the the needs of others. As though we are serving Christ in the reason, we can do that. Yes. Because life is now sourced in the one. Who is holy is seeded that on the father and is giving us in enrolling with his skirts. So sanctification is still completely gift a foreign and giving it is true in real well going back to the vine branches illustration, the vine, it's the branches that bear fruits. Right. Right. And so the the the branches bear the fruit of sanctification, you could say love joy, peace, patience, kindness, Guinness, faithfulness. But all of that happens only if the vine is supplying life to the branches. Absolutely. I think about how poll were very familiar with the visions to you one through nine. I would say that we almost always preach or you hear about a two one three tin which is a unit, but you only hear about one through nine. It's like we here, and you were dead in the trespasses and Susan when she wants walk. That's the bad news. And then we'll go verse four look, but God being rich mercy. And then we spend the next thirty minutes. Going by grace through faith, in Jesus know, all of those things are wonderfully gloriously, beautifully foundationally true, Paul ins officials to one through ten by saying this for we are his workmanship created where in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. There's like it's indisputable. This is why I always say that the reason why we have such a problem with this tension between justification sanctify and a misunderstanding of Gray's and holiness is because we divorce all of these aspects of Dr salvation from the bedrock of union with crisis. Right. Because when you actually put them all there, then you take out of this. You know, God is the clear me ranches. And now, I'm now I have to walk and righteous. It's like, no, the the problem was so much of our language around salvation is that we remove it from the primary relational context that the New Testament imagines in which is union with guys. And he having continues in chapter to the end of chapter two in him. You are being built together into a dwelling place for God the spirit. It's a work tapping. It's work that's happening in the presence of God is among us and what does the presence of God entail holiness witness? Yeah, we have a little quiet running joke in our family about buck. God sermons. Right. You know, a, hey, how'd you heard the, but God sermon again and about God's sermon is always about justification, which is why we keep preaching. It has its doctrine reused trait doctrine, it's there. It's a symmetrical passes starts with how we walked as children of wrath and ends with how he walks children of God. And the aren't matters it at one hundred percent does it one hundred percent does. And we take this Martin Luther quote, and I'm about to get on a hobby horse here. We take this Martin Luther quote that the doctrine of justification the doctrine by which is her scenes are falls. Which is absolutely like justification is true. It is. So historically situated Luther is looking. Roman Catholic church. Where maybe the biggest issue was a misunderstanding of how one is justified. That's his big thing. Okay. Luther is most clear when he's writing his commentary glaciers because justification is there got it's the big deal. It was what is at stake. It's what. But we'll kind of bandy about like that's the core doctrine of salvation and Protestants little reform subculture is the worst about this. Which in reality? The doctrine of justification is not the bedrock doctrine of our Dr salvation it is the doctor with Christ because we only receive the declaration of righteousness in Jesus your Jesus. That's it the decoration of righteousness doesn't exist somewhere else Calvin said there, isn't there is not a righteous can receive outside of Jesus. That's right. I mean, you don't get more reform than Calvin. Right. So like the reform bona fides on this is that listen doctrine of union with Christ is the principal bedrock doctrine of our salvation. So I think that raises question we've already got to. But this. Good place to kind of like laying this because if not land because you're like. No more coffee for this doctrine matter for the Christian life. Why we we could say a hundred things here. What does it matter? There are things we could say I've got one. Then Jen, probably and then I've got one one level. I hope this is low level. And there's probably people were listening to this conversation's justification to they get worried about. Oh my goodness. I send yesterday. Maybe I'm just fine. The good news of union with Christ. The good news of justification the good news of sanctification. And all that is entailed in all of the doctrines is that you have not cannot will not contribute. Anything to your salvation, the entire of your salvation is sourced in you being placed in Jesus salvation is a one-way act of God accomplishing what we could not accomplish our behalf that does not take anything that would just about officials to of accomplishing the good works that he's say set before us. But if you're listening to this year should receive the good news that grace is got accomplishing four you for us for the church for his body. What we could have never accomplished for selves, and you get to rest in Jesus. Yes. Interested in the in. Geez. Imitating Jesus in him with him through him is rest and salvation. I remember from years ago, and I've used the Silla station 'cause it was so helpful to me someone teaching on this. And he he gave a physical representation of it. And he had a small storage container, and he took some beans some dried beans, and he put them in the small storage container. And he said this is Christ in you. And then he put the lid on the storage container, and he took that. And he put it inside of a larger storage container. Is that this is you in Christ? And he put the lid on that. And then he held it up. And he said how secure you and that has just stuck with me. There's so much security in in this doctrine. So much of a reassurance that he's in you. And you're in him, and you're safe you're safe and secure in in in in that union, the doctrine view is. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I think that's got to be one of the biggest ways that it's helpful for the living of the Christian life is that there's this incredible reality that alternately our salvation. Secure because crisis faith from not because we are faith, right? But because he is faithful he keeps guards as people and because we did not earn or gain our union with him. We cannot lose it. And so I'll often talk about this distinction between union and communion that our union with with God is locked into Christ Jesus. It's unbreakable. It's unshakable irrevokable. It's what Paul and Romans. Hey, there's nothing an all of creation that can separate us from the love of God. Where in Christ Jesus nothing can separate why? Because the love of God is secured and sealed in Christ. And it's his faithfulness that keeps it, but communion is something that can be disrupted. So I often say union is we're God has secured every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus, but communion is our ongoing cultivation of enjoying by of a mining of every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. And so oftentimes what believers experience when they begin to doubt or when they begin to lack of surender. Is they are rightly perceiving a disruption in their them union with God, they're rightly Cincinnati. I have been walking in things that are disrupting or are so in what you might call. Emotional or I I wanna say existential, but there is a felt sense of of distance from God. And they interpret that as I must not be saved. That's like that's the major or gods feelings towards me his his disposition imposter coma. When in reality. What is happening is that we but usually by virtue of the broken of the world or the broken in our own life. We have had some distance from the things of the Lord. But the things of the Lord have not become suspect for us. Let's not like they've become jeopardized. Because we are not holding those things Christ holding those things, but it's our nearness towards enjoying those things. It's are felt since I feel like union is so helpful for also empowering people to enjoy God like actually fellowship with because it invites them to go fell your felt since a fellowship with God is not the barometer for whether or not your rises. But because you are secure in Jesus you can enjoy a felt sense a fellowship with God in Christ. So allows you to properly place that to go, ma'am. I don't know that I have been feeling much nearness to the spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. But to not immediately go, why must not have the spiritual blessings any lots right or they must have been removed from me. That's why I must have never tasted of them. No. It's an invitation come back and say, no, no, they're still got his left them because they're in Jesus you didn't lose them. I mean union with Christ battles these false ways of knowing yet experience these other way or even rationalism. Yes, I think I'm far from God. Or I feel far from God union with crisis. A reminder that Christians have another way of knowing. Yes. And our way of knowing is simply through faith in believing that we have been placed in Christ in the way that happens. The means that happens is through the enrolling power of the Holy Spirit being born again being given this faith. I love how I think you read this earlier forget where you stopped in a Fijian's, but this trinitaria act of union. Equations begins with the father setting his love and affection upon us. This accomplishing salvation forest. But if to still speaking of union talks house, how Jesus accomplishes union in by the power of the Holy Spirit. So Fijian's chapter one ends this way in him who also win you heard the word of truth. The gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it union with Christ cannot be broken because it is sealed by the power of God. The Holy Spirit is God himself at work in us ceiling Christ ceiling us in Christ. And there's just nothing that you can do there's nothing that you can do or have done that can break the seal of God placed upon your life. Yeah. That's good. That's good. And I and and it's also our union with Christ our enjoyment of that is is one of the key witnesses to the world. That's right. Like this reality the reality that comes. So like. Anything about the high priestly prayer? So as if you were thinking Jin's already brought up some of the other passages for Jesus is talking about this Inc. Education dissipation, but no more nowhere more clearly in the gospels than John seventeen where Jesus high priestly prayer says do not ask for these only this verse twenty of chapter seventeen, but but also for those who believe in me through their word that they may all be one just as you father are in me. And I and you that they also may be in us why? So that the world may believe that you have sent me right? This picture of what is Jesus saying? I want them to experience unity among among themselves, and he's talking specifically about gentile Jewish unity here. And then he's saying why because we are United, and I want them to be one with us as you, and I have been one and why all of this. So that the world might believe, right? And the reason for that is because union with Christ. It's not just the bedrock for our doctor salvation like it's not just the way that the that the system works. So it's not just like, here's an idea. That's gonna. Put the pieces together. It's that it gives the Christian such an unspeakable rest and conscience, and assuring that now all of the risk in all of the sacrifice and all of the picking up the cross and dying daily all of the vulnerabilities that obedience requires all of those things can be approached from glad heart because they're all secured in Jesus, and we are protected there. And we've been folded into fellowship, and we're not trying to earn it. And so it gives us a settled in the eyes of the world that's constantly trying to earn. This is where the union with Christ comes into our identity formation where it's like, there's just a subtle result of like, isn't it wouldn't it be beautiful to the world. If they saw a group of people that were so at rest with who God, it's called them in Christ. Jesus that go they go what gives that kind of rest then by by result. They would be so at rest with one another. I think that's the real kicker. There is a lot of times that we feel disunion. With God that creeps in is. Because we are not in union with one another. And then when we try to rectify the one another part without being rooted in the union with Christ. It doesn't work out. It doesn't every disruption of the unity in the body is first and foremost disruption of how we are perceiving our communion with God in Christ. And that's what Paul doesn't Fiji's starts with Christ. But what's the back half of visions about a for visas, five invasion, six our unity in the church and mission? That's what they're about. And that's it word today. Isn't it is it is from Paul in Ephesus? Well, listen, I feel like we could talk. I could talk. I feel like you could talk about this forever. I'm sorry. I kind of in the training program. We do a whole week to this is Kyle. Face. Just tell you one of the most in one of the most memorable moments of my life was I was in a class with theologian named Sinclair Ferguson. I tell the story I usually teach on this and the training program was in class with Sinclair Ferguson, who's an incredible feeling an incredible village and of union with Christ. And it was doctrine of salvation to. And I remember it we were out of class for break, and I came up to and I just asked them I asked him like basic, I don't even remember the question to ask them. Okay. And this was gosh this was years ago. And he grabbed me like, he's a very large, man. Okay. In scottish. I can't discuss accent. It would just be embarrassing. But he grabbed me, and he put his hands on my shoulders. And he shook me and said son, you are not understanding me. It is all in union with Christ. And it was like a very experience. I got my car that day. I drove home crying. I didn't really know why. And I went back, and I started to kind of reread through the letters of Paul, and it was one of the greatest comforts that the law. Ever given me in reading and searching his word that there's doctrine that had to me. It's like it's so appeared on the surface of the New Testament, but I had never really seen it. I never really spent time in the Morris. Meantime, there the more I began to feel freedom from men in my supposed to be working to obey God are working to earn. Great. Like all of this little like idiosyncrasies might doubts around my assurance of salvation all these things began to like just be pulled off articles off a boat because this doctrine is so obvious on the New Testament, and it's so liberating when we begin to see man, I am in Christ. Jesus what can be said of Jesus can be said like this is a startling doctrine. That's why I'm so I'm so glad he grabbed you and shook u because this shake us shook should shake out of fear into hope. I mean, this is one of those doctrines that just the more you see it, you can't unsee it. Yeah. You if you are in Christ you've been placed in the heavenly places with him, and you will not be. Lost the same grace that saves the same grace that keeps can I start using shaking is something that I do to make my point come across. Well, I shared with us. If there's anything talk about the show, the you like know more about you can find details on our website, PBC resources dot net. On our next episode. We're going to be continuing the discussion of second Samuel looking at an arc and a covenant second same five through eight with our fringe Amen roller. See next, Grayson peace.

Paul Jesus John seventeen Adam Fiji union union United Thomas Abraham JT Kyle Lydia David Cal Worthington Saul South Asia Calvin Wilkin Lauren
After the Fact: Making Sense of Philosophy & Our Cultural Moment

Knowing Faith

08:22 min | 1 year ago

After the Fact: Making Sense of Philosophy & Our Cultural Moment

"This episode is sponsored by Lifeway Women by women has a new study coming out October first from one of my favorite Bible Teachers Jackie Hill Perry the study is called Jude can attending for the faith in today's culture in the seven sessions study you'll dive into themes of being called loved and kept and learn to point others to Jesus in Grace and truth there's Syria another episode of after the fact so typically in primary source material talking about the texts that other people are going to talk right right right so the Koran the Bible Players Republic I mean you meditations descartes line a couple of good guides to help walk you through the history of ideas now so there are some people that have done a lot of legwork and this is what we call secondary source material before what is some practical tips you could give somebody to help make sense of philosophy culture and understanding this culture moment yeah okay a lot of those spaces like a commentary is secondary source material in the Bible right a systematic theology could be secondary source material Josephus antiquities the aristotle this is another big primary source work I mean certainly the church has big figureheads like that but outside of the church there are massive towering figures as well the Go-to some primary source material so for example outside of the scripture there are very important big works that almost everybody is talking about yes if if our listeners are struggling to think through like not just this cultural moment but like philosophy history of ideas it's something they've they've never done so plato and Aristotle maybe two of the biggest but if you were moving beyond that you'd want to explore the Koran like if you are somebody who is interested in engaging with issues related decks of one of the largest religions in the world so so going back to some primary source material is tremendously helpful and then outside of that it's good philosophically Plato's republic kind of keystone documents keystone source you should go back and look at Plato's republic another great example would be the Nikko McCain Ethics in Islam Contemporary Islam historical beliefs about Islam Islam is one of the largest religion in the world and is certainly involved in many conversations about global reality well so it it can feel a little bit like it can feel a little bit like wow there's the sea of ideas I feel like people are talking about he's an international policy if you've never even if you've never looked at the Koran it might be worth their consideration of going you know I probably should acquaint myself with the source try and it can feel often like wow there it seems like all of the relevant voices or the voices that you're kind of following the people who are publishing books or your professors they're talking about them directly or indirectly all the time they might even know they're talking exactly but they're referencing ideas that have already been explored so I mean if I can just throw out a few of them three of ideas from a Christian perspective from a Christian perspective history of Ideas Oh man you know John Frame has has a good book on Philosophy Kennedy Big would be like you know what it would probably go back be important to read Plato's Republic just because when people are talking about cultural issues politically school it can feel like wow they all know all of this now oftentimes that's really just a figment you have a lot of people who bits and pieces because nobody can know all things right but when you begin to try to interact with the issue of ideas often tell people it's best to can't take that reformation mantra of adventists and go back to the sources that's big ideas all the time and I don't really know where these ideas started and how do I enter it just feels like man this is a conversation that's been going on for so long self-consciously as a Christian apologist writing so he is exploring those ideas maybe in a way that is he's quick to kind of assess them right as he these are examples of secondary source material so you wanna find maybe a good guide and there are some great guys out there what would be your top like Gosh rhymer for understanding the in Christian thought history of ideas and he does a good job walking through a brief kind of perspective on different movements and time periods it's not a there's a lot that you could throw in here but these big historic works there stood the test of time and people are referencing secondary source material can be tremendously helpful as guide through with the knowing faith podcast this is J. T. English here with Kyle Worley after the fact we just do some quick questions for practical tips really related to the Bible Theology and spiritual formation. Kyle I've got a question for you that book Okay and I saw something like that and he's a trustworthy source yeah and he's he does approach them very sounds like we're using philosophy as a substitute for history of ideas but that's because by and large kind of history of ideas can fall under kind of the discipline of philosophy thirty seconds or less than somebody care about this well because we're not operated like the world has never operated in ideological vacuum or in an ideas Oh yeah history of philosophy yeah that's a good one I recommend that one a lot because they also have that work that we use in a training program on the drama of scripture into it's Real I love reading those books back like it's very easy for us to talk about Bible Times and imagine that the only thing happening in the world at the time was what we find written in the Bible and that's almost not in perspective after Babel the world is scattered and ideas are emerging and thinkers are starting like a lot of times people don't know that Plato Aristotle or figures that came does so it's not a neutral history but that's maybe not what you're looking for but frame will give you a good perspective on that And so I think that would probably think about Bartholomew and go he four Jesus so it's like you know you're thinking about g think that maybe two of the biggest intellectual figures in the history of ideas might have had a formative in influence on the Greco Roman culture the Paul was

Jackie Hill Perry Bible Times Kyle Jesus Greco Roman Bartholomew Paul g thirty seconds
April 10, 2019: Hour 1

Here & Now

41:47 min | 1 year ago

April 10, 2019: Hour 1

"From NPR and WB. You are I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Robin young. It's here now. And today's the deadline set by Democrats in congress for someone to hand over the president's tax returns, that's unlikely to happen on Sunday acting White House chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, said lawmakers will never get them despite a nineteen twenty four law mandating the treasury shall furnish a president's tax returns. When lawmakers asked also today attorney general Bill bar is back on the hill. This time in the Senate yesterday he promised to release the redacted Mullah report within the week. Let's bring in NPR congressional reporter Kelsey Snell. Kelsey hi there and start with the battle over the taxes. Yesterday. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin was on the hill for two hearings in one he said, he didn't talk to the White House about the tax returns. But his treasury lawyers spoke with White House counsel. Putting this aside? You know, how is this fight shaping up? Well, I think Democrats are really concerned that any involvement of the White House in this process of congress asking. For the president's tax returns could be a foul play essentially congresswoman, Carolyn Maloney of New York spoke up at that hearing and said that the White House shouldn't be playing any role in the release of the tax returns. She said that she was worried that if it doesn't violate the law itself, it may violate the spirit of the law. And she says that she thinks that they need to get to the bottom of what the communications were and whether or not it was proper, right? And also, well sort of a verbal fight Mnuchin got into a very fiery exchange with the democrat, Maxine Waters chair of the House Financial Services committee. Now, we want to hear some of it, but we should say we've edited some of the repetition out. But basically he was saying he didn't want to stay at this hearing. He wanted to go meet with leaders of Bahrain summer saying she called his bluff, let's listen if you'd wish to keep me here. So that I don't have my important meeting and continue to grill me, then we can do that. I will cancel my meeting, and I will not be back here. I will be very clear if that's the way you like to have this relation. Ship. Thank you. The secretary has agreed to stay to hear all of the rest of the members of the press respect our time. I was next on foreign meeting. You're you're instructing me to stay here. And I should know you just made me an offer. I didn't make you know, maybe an offer that I accept it. I did not an offer. Just let's be clear instructing me. You're ordering me to stay here. No. I'm not a lettering. You I'm responding. I said you may leave anytime you want please dismiss everybody. I believe you're supposed to take the gravel and bang it. That's least not instruct me as to how to conduct this committee. Okay. Much has been made of the fact that it's gavel not gravel. But a very heated moment. Kelsey, what does this tell you about Mnuchin and pressure from Democrats? Well, this is essentially what happens when Democrats take control of congress Mnuchin, you know, he has had a history of clashing with this committee in particular and with waters. Particular Democrats want him to be more responsive to them this. There was likely going to be some sort of clash here. And it is it's one of those situations where we're going to be watching this happen over and over and over again Democrats want more accountability from a White House that is been very resistant to delivering that kind of response. And will they deliver the tax returns? There is that nineteen twenty four lots Pacific says the treasury shell furnish a president's tax returns. If lawmakers asked for them, well, the White House of President Trump in particular saying that he is under audit. There is nothing that says that an audit prevents the president from sharing his tax returns with congress, and this is very much expected to become a court fight. But even the president's own personal lawyers have signaled that they will get involved in this. So we don't expect this to wrap up any way quickly and just very quickly. Bill bar. Also testified today before the Senate appropriations committee now he's already said today that he. He believes that there was FBI spying on the Trump twenty sixteen campaign whether or not it was deserved about a campaign. He's not sure he said this. I am going to be reviewing both the Genesis and the conduct of intelligence activities directed at the Trump campaign during two thousand and sixteen and of course, the end result of that was the Muller report on the Russia interference in the campaign, which is agreed upon that. There was interference. The question is whether or not the campaign worked with the Russians. What does this tell you? I mean about this ongoing drama over the release of the mole report. Well, Democrats are not going to be satisfied with just a redacted report. They've made that very clear they were not satisfied when they got the four page letter summarizing what was in the report, and we can expect that they're going to continue to press for this. It is very important for them both politically and from a policy making an investigative standpoint to try to get as much information. Out there as possible on the political side. They're trying to prove to people that there is a foundation for their further investigations on the investigative side. They need more evidence. Do continue the other investigations that they have going because remember Democrats are not just looking into the president's tax returns or just interested interference in the election. They have said that they want to look into any potential wrongdoing of President Trump and his campaign, and wherever it may lead them. And now a Bill bars calling for an investigation into how all of these investigations started NPR congressional reporter Kelsey Snell. Thank you. Thank you will the UK is just two days away from crashing out of the European Union without a deal outcome that could have disastrous effects on everything from trade to travel. British Prime Minister Theresa may is trying to avoid that. She is in Brussels again today for an emergency E U summit ask for a Brexit delay this until June thirtieth joining us now from London is BBC political correspondent, rob Watson. Rob. Hi, Jamie, ready for the latest installments of. Balmy Brexit Britain. It's like a bonus season of a show that we get to keep watching over and over again. But do you think that the European Union is going to give prime minister may another extension? I do I think the only real question is just how long it is won't conditions are attached. And we know that broadly speaking as division in the air opinion in between those countries that thank goodness gracious Britain will horrible mass. Let's give them as much time as they need to get out to the mass. And then there's another set of half lead principally by FRANZ. You think Britain what a horrible mess. Goodness gracious. Let's hope that in fact us with that. So if they all going to stay let's make it a short as possible really, or at least have some really strict rules. So they can't import that as they would say it that sort of anti e Brexit madness into into Europe's doings, but it seems like Theresa May does not want a long extension. She wants it to be short. That's right. But, you know, most people in Britain would like the weather to be nice of what are you going? Do. I mean, it's been to to be serious for a minute. I mean, people have said, you know, maybe this is going to depend on her performance that that seems ludicrous to me. I mean, she has a prime minister so utterly weakened her off authority and credibility is completely leached away. So this isn't about what what does Britain want from the European units. What is the EU prepared to give? So let's say that may gets an extension. What is she going to do with it? We know that the the last time we spoke with you. She was starting talks with the labor party to figure out next steps. Yes. I mean, my own view, Jeremy for what it's worth is one of the extension is short medium or long. The problem remains the same. And that is finding consensus about gas wall. What stood up referendum results nearly three years ago now, and yes, she will no doubt continue talks with the opposition labor party? I mean, I would be skeptical about them getting very far because why on earth with an opposition party wants to help a government and such an almighty mass. And Secondly, the view inside labor is that Braxton. There's a catastrophe just waiting to happen. So why not would you want to get anywhere narrows? And then of course, if that doesn't work than an attempt would go on to try and find if you could just put it to a free vote. Amongst Britain's six hundred and fifty MP's is something that could agree on. But I guess you and everybody listing Jeremy minority or spotted the fatal flaw that they you know, they haven't been able to do that. So far exactly now what is the possibility at this point. Now that it looks like there will be another delay short medium or long of what some people in Britain want, which is another say second public vote on Brexit. I I would say only this is sort of feels as though Britain is immensely unstable. And the idea that a long extension would be filled by MP's peacefully going back to sourcing out. Whatever it is that the pets are doing of that on happy constituents is ridiculous. So it will be it will be full drama and of all those options, I think are having a referendum is. Got to be a growing possibility. I think having another general election the collapse of the government is another possibility. My basic points. Jeremy is just that things are mentally unstable. You feel as though they kind of Congo on as they are. Okay. So then let me ask you about one more thing that we haven't talked much about. And that is Boris Johnson. Who was in Theresa May's government, many people look at him and say he's waiting in the wings to take over as prime minister. What is he doing all this? He he now seems like he's a really hardcore Brexit here. I, you know, I I guess he was he was the guy that let him and he is he is waiting. I think he probably wouldn't be too cruel to say was politically salivating at the chance to get into number ten Downing Street, and the funny thing is that before Brexit. I wouldn't have ruled it out. But now he is, of course, such an athlete divisive figure. I mean, forty eight percents of the population low them with a vengeance. And are an awful lot of people in the conservative party. Even those pro Brexit who think that he would. Be would sort of describe him as a mentally on reliable. So the character. So is he dreaming of becoming prime minister. You betcha as there any chance of his dream coming true. I don't know. Will he give up on that dream, not a chance? And if he does become prime minister is it more likely that Britain would just crash out of the us that what he really wants. I think it would. I think any prime minister in Theresa May's place would be facing this this fundamental choice. You know, what did you do you really? Would you be prepared to take Britain out the e without to deal with all of the warnings? That are have been about that for Britain's economy for everything food shortages unite would you really be prepared to do that. Or do you accept the has to be just a fundamental rethink home Brexit, either whether or not to go ahead with that a referendum also have a much softer Brexit. That's the BBC's political. Correspondent rob Watson in London. Rob. Thank you. Thank you. There's a new stop motion animation film out this Friday called missing link. It stars Zach galifianakis known for the hangover films baskets on FX and his satirical interview show between two ferns Galvin Acas plays a sasquatch a big foot named Mr. link living alone in the Pacific northwest. When he's discovered by explorer, sir. Lionel frost voiced by Hugh Jackman, he asks for us to take him to find his only kin the yeti and frost agrees. Oh, yes. Prove the assistance not just one, but an entire branch of missing links. Imagine the headlines them, oh, you really mean that you could attain, of course, I give you my word. Okay. What is it? What the word was a figure of speech. Sounds good. What is it? Zach galifianakis joins me now from New York. Welcome to here. Now. Thanks for having me. We'll tell us a little bit about your character in this film. The name. Is Mr. link. I guess we'll say or Susan if you wanna go by the more casual name. Yes, Susan is Marquette. The character is this kind of innocent creature. That's been in the woods, and I think all creatures in the woods have certain innocence in earnestness to them until they get out of the woods much like humans. We become poisoned by our own world. And I think he was yearning to get out of the woods to see if there was anybody with another creature like him and in his travels. He finds out that. Yeah, you can socialize with a lot of different creatures. They don't have to be just like you. And the sasquatch is a very Zach galifianakis sasquatch. I would say would you agree with that? He is a little. Yeah. He has traces of he's very he's kind of a loner, but he won't. And I think to sound really pretentious. I think all the the characters I play are looking for friendships. I think that seems to be the common thing that of the characters that I play. So this is another one of the he's looking for. Friends how much input? Did you have in the character? Chris butler. The director was very gracious letting me breathe and do my own thing. But he's a very witty person. So I trusted him the difference. I think between this kind of the voice acting and regular acting as you have to imagine the spatial and versus obviously live action, you can see everything and like, oh, there's actor. They're they're going to hand me this umbrella. I know what to do versus. Oh, I have to imagine someone handed me an umbrella. That's not hard to imagine. But you know, it's just just you use your imagination a lot more. But are you all they're doing it together at the same time, or you know, you're not isolated in a dark booth, usually just you and the director you don't hear the reaction to anything that you say nothing. Wow. There is no reaction and being a standup. You know, you're kinda used to that instant gratification. But with these animated things you just kinda speak into a microphone and there's little react. Wow. There's no reaction. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I I would say that somebody who's on the radio, and I can't see the people I'm talking to I find it much harder to sit in front of a crowd and do something. I mean, where they can see me as opposed to be able to deal with no reaction. Yeah. Oh, so you're more comfortable behind. Yeah. I've never thought about that. But that makes total sense. I'm just more used to it. I'm just more. You of course. Yeah. So when you are saying something funny in this film, or or just doing one of your lines who do you have in your head? Do you have somebody there you speaking to a kid or you speaking to an adult? I well, I am keeping in mind that it is a kids movie, first and foremost, but you do want to speak to the adults that might be bringing the kids there too. 'cause you wanna give them a few jokes to try and it's always more enjoyable when these kind of movies have some humor for the grownups. And I think we tried to split the difference there with the so you're speaking to mostly the children, but the great at that has brought the kids there. Hopefully, she's paying attention. You could sneak in joke there. I left that a lot of few times when I watched this film. Yeah. For adults. There's like there's it's pretty subtle for kids movie. It's pretty subtle humor. Which is refreshing. I think let's listen to actually to another clip from the film. This is a scene where Mr. link, and sir Lionel are trying to break into a mansion to steal a map which could help them in their quest. Let's listen. Now throw this over the wall. What what did you just do? What do you mean? The rope over the wall. You mean all of it? We had never said that. I'm very literal. Oh, you do. You know, what I did think though, as I was watching this is it's very much about the outdoors about exploration. And we hear now about the youngest generation the people that probably won't be going to see this movie. And a lot of them aren't spending a whole lot of time outdoors. I mean, maybe part of it is inspiring them to do that. I had to tell you. I live in the woods. Yeah. And part of the time I live in the woods. And what happens in the woods? If people have forgotten is time slows down and in chaos time speeds up, and if you want to take a breath and see beautifully amazing things where you can concentrate and lose your mind into nature. There's nothing better than being in the woods. And we I think we forget that. Oh, yeah. There's this other acids. People that live in the cities. Oh, yeah. There's woods that we all came from by the way that really can slow us down to make her heart beat properly. So what percentage of your time? Would you say that you get to spend in nature these days now that you are doing all these different projects about forty percent? Want to crank that up to ninety nine percents. Good. Yeah. Where did your brand of humor come from? I was reading in your biography that you got started in a hamburger joint in Times Square. Yeah. I started doing open mics in New York was place called hamburger. Harry's Jim gaffe, again got his start as well. And as far as my brand of you know, if something makes me laugh in neither conversation, or I've said, something incomers. I'll just jot it down sometimes it translates the stage oftentimes it doesn't. But I like absurdity I also like rudeness because I think rudeness is funny knuckles. I agree with it. I think rudeness is funny because I think when people are rude, they're not aware. And I think people that are not aware of themselves as very funny. So I've kinda built it on those rules. I don't agree with a lot of the humor. I do. I just do it to try to make a point. Sometimes you speaking of route. I actually have to play this next clip that we have which you'll recognize that this is from your other show between two ferns here. You are with Hillary Clinton as secretary how many words per minute. Could you type and how does President Obama like is coffee like himself out here week act? Those are really out of date questions. I need to get out more. What happens if you become pregnant? Are we going to be stuck with Tim Kaine for nine months, how does this work? I I could send you some anklets that might help you understand versus what what do you think? Would you hear that? Now that was a few years ago. Now anytime I hear anything of do I always medically cover my face. I don't know if it's a weird knee jerk reaction. That's not that. I'm really embarrassed except I'm not a nervy person. Like, I don't I'm like, oh, I can't wait to ask. I just kind of do my job asked the dumb questions. Sometimes it's awkward in the room. And sometimes she was a good sport. The best part about that one. We. To edit out because it was too long. There's a really funny seventy sexes. Hillary Clinton that I never got to release that maybe I will one day. But you won't tell us what it is. I don't wanna ruin it by telling you what it is is just put it. She had to wait for very long facts to come through. That's that's that's all it was. Will there be more episodes of between two? I haven't been any in a while. Well, we shot a movie also known as kicking a dead horse. No. But we we we we did shoot a movie that should be coming out within the year. Oh, wow. That's great. I can't really go much into it. Because I really I don't it's of still early. We're still trying to figure it out the at it. But I mean between that and this and baskets, and so many other things it seems like you're involved in a lot of things the idea that you're able to even spend forty percent of your time now out in nature is kind of amazing. Well, you you you close shop for when you can. And then you open it back up. So, yeah, I'll I'll shut her down here for going to be done with work for a couple of months, and then I'll take a little break and go to the woods. And who knows a may never return. What do you like best though, as you've if you've done dramatic roles, you've done comedic roles you've done now animated roles, etc. And a show like an interview show like between two ferns, which do you prefer all of them? I mean, honestly without sounded too. I am forty nine. And I am just really happy to still be working because it's comedy, especially as a younger person's game. I think so the fact that people are still asking me to do things is nice drama. I would rather do only because you run out of tricks in comedy. And I think I may have run out of tricks and dramas easier. It's a lot easier. I want to just ask you, finally, what is the most challenging thing for you. Now when you're doing something that you've done so much in your life. What is still like? Oh my God. I I don't know. I'm gonna get through this or do this. Well, now, it's just put my socks on. Because of the lack of stretching. Well, I think sometimes I I wonder got if I'd done that joke before because you're pulling things out of your head that are not on the page sometimes. And if I said that before and another thing, or that sounds familiar, I don't know. I it just keeping up with jokes that you've already done. And like I said you do kinda run out of tricks. But the most important thing that I'm at this point in my life. I'm just real grateful that just kind of what it is. I don't sit and worry too much about the future in this business. If it's run its course, it's run. Its course this show business OB nothing nothing, and I feel incredibly grateful that people have been willing to to watch things that I'm in. And if it goes away goes away, you pick yourself up, and you go back to what you love that is that galifianakis who stars in the new movie missing link, which is out on Friday. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you. This message comes from here. Now sponsor ember. Wave ember wave the revolutionary personal thermostat. That is designed to help you feel cooler or warmer at the press of a button ember wave can put you in control and places like you're freezing office uncomfortable. Airplanes restaurants, trains, cafes and more named one of time magazine's best inventions of two thousand eighteen learn more at ember wave dot com and use code NPR to save fifty dollars at checkout ember wave control your comfort. Parts of North Carolina. Looked like something out of a SCI fi movie. This week a thick yellow haze hovering in the air. It was not the apocalypse, but rather a huge amount of tree pollen. Pollen counts are spiking again today will stay high for the rest of the week. And joining me now is Dr Richard herring. An allergist immunologists with the Carolina asthma allergy center in Charlotte. Dr herring. Welcome. Thank you for having me. And first of all just tell us what it was like earlier this week when this cloud of tree pollen descended on your state. Well, we definitely saw a lot of patients who were feeling earlier in the week. We did have much higher pollen counts. What's also interesting is that we're seeing levels of weed pollens and grass pollens kind of early to and is this because you had so much rain in the last several months in North Carolina. I think the rain did have a lot to do with it. I think it just encourages more pollen release. So we're seeing the typical high tree pollen counts. But also, very high mold spore counts, but partly because of all the rain and the humidity. So what kind of symptoms are people coming in with? We see a lot of allergic conditions at one of the biggest ones. Just classic eighth fever. We're seeing a lot of asthma flare ups now to and what do you tell people to do about it? We usually talk about their typical allergen avoidance measures. We go over their medications that they might be taking or maybe make some changes in their medications. And some of them are on long term plans such as. Immunotherapy your allergy shot programs the voidance measures for pollen. We do talk about, you know, washing off after busy days outside and maybe changing clothes and just having an awareness of where that allergen comes from is there relief in sight, or do you think this is going to go on for many months? It usually goes on for a number of months, so we're about to merge into grass pollen season, and that can really give people a fit, and we have some who do a little better during the summer months and some who still suffer. But then, you know, fall allergens such as ragweed that'll start to kick in in the fall. And so there are some who just don't really get a break from it. Now, you're doctor not a meteorologist. But I have to say when I see that North Carolina is having a problem with pollen right now, I think it's only going to be a matter of time before it starts to move up the east coast and up into the northern part of this country. Do you expect that right? Well. Yep. So I think we usually from our perspective here, we talk about with those patients, he moved here from say New England area and definitely. We noticed that the seasons are longer, and it seems to start earlier, but I think is move further up the eastern corridor. Probably a if they haven't felt it yet. It's about that time. It's coming. It's coming. Do you suffer from seasonal allergies? I have had an experience with it. I don't think mine have been a severe some of the patients we see here. My know what it feels like because I'll have a few weeks of suffering, and it can be pretty miserable. It's like the cold that never goes away a wife went through it and went through a course of allergy shots. And that was the one thing that changed it for her. And it was like a one eighty for her. You think there'll be any point when there's a cure for allergies? Cure is. Yeah. That was harder to say. I think what we have. Now, we have a lot of immune changing type treatments. So immunotherapy. And there may be some other things on the horizon immunotherapy has more to do. It's typical allergy shots, but can actually reverse it for a lot of patients that is Dr Richard herring. An allergist immunologists with the Carolina, asthma and allergies center. He's in Charlotte. Dr hearing thank you. Thank you for having me. Yesterday. Officials in New York told people in certain neighborhoods to get vaccinated against the measles or get fined up to a thousand dollars. Most of the almost three hundred cases in the city since last October have been among members of Brooklyn's orthodox Jewish community many of whom traveled to Israel where there's also an outbreak. But the same kind of ban in nearby Rockland county, New York was overturned by a judge. So far this year. They have been more than four hundred cases of measles reported in nineteen state. According to the CDC, the total number nationwide. This year is the second greatest number in the us since measles was eliminated in two thousand. Let's take a look at New York's outbreak with Helen brands. Well, senior writer for stat news the health and medicine publication. Hi, helen. Hi, robyn. And what what is behind the current outbreak? Is it just the lack of that one? And not just it's a big deal, but the lack of access nations. Yes. So as you meant. Nd these communities in New York City and Rockland county, which is north of Manhattan. Have deep ties with Israel. There's a lot of movement back and forth between the and Israel has been fighting an outbreak. So the thing about measles is if it's spreading somewhere, and it finds its way into people who are unvaccinated it will spread among them. Here is the mayor of New York Bill de Blasio speaking at a press conference as he declared a public health emergency. Let's listen. So we have a specific situation here which goes right down to the family level where individual families individual parents are making decisions it does interconnect with the anti vacs movement, which is not just in this community. It's national and it's causing a lot of problems endangers. Let's so what can happen here because they are saying they will find not just these families. But the schools can be shut down as well. In some schools are defying all these orders, and allowing kids with measles to come in one school did that and they had forty new cases. Among the kids, Ken a city force people. To get vaccinated well at their press conference yesterday. No one said we are going to hold down people in vaccinate them. If they are unvaccinated what they said was if we find somebody who has been in contact with a case who is not vaccinated. We will tell them they need to be vaccinated. And if they refuse to be vaccinated, they will be fined I think the issue is here that what they're trying to do is really impress upon people. This this is very serious, and they are serious about trying to get this under control in the hopes that more people will be vaccinated, and they can stop transmission will in the Rockland county banned, they banned unvaccinated children from visiting public places on I think there was a fine in involved in Rockland county, but a judge overturned that ban. So it'll be interesting to see what happens with New York City's pledge of a fine if people don't vaccinate. Yeah. We'll be I talked yesterday to quite a few public health law experts and there's a fairly long tradition. Of of the court's upholding public health laws that are meant to control the spread of infectious diseases, and some reason to think that this might survive court challenge, but it'll be interesting to see. Well, measles are miserable. Those of us who have had it. No. And by the way, this shot is for prevention of measles, mumps rubella. But you know, measles are miserable cough, fever, maybe hospitalization rarely death. So we don't what is the urgency because some people might say, well, it's not the plague. So what is the urgency here? Well, it is a serious disease as you mentioned, but there are side effects that it can be very serious. You can have measles related pneumonia. You can have enough Elijah's kids end up in icy us back in the days before the vaccine was put into broad use. About half a million kids a year in the United States contracted the measles and about five hundred deaths a year occurred back then so it is not insignificant. That's how Branchville senior writer for stat news the health and medicine publication. Helen, thank you. Thank you Rubben. Well, so much for spring, the Rockies and planes are bracing for April snowstorms today. Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Minnesota are all under blizzard warnings and those storms will make their way east. So in Iowa were many communities are still recovering after the floods of March, they're bracing for the snow melt which checking in with Cathy crane, mayor of Hamburg, Iowa mccranie. And we remember in March, the flood waters overflowed your Levy there your town completely underwater. And now you're worried about water coming down from the states hit by snowstorms, correct? Yeah. How much you expecting? They believe meserve river is going to be a four feet higher than four feet plus higher than it is now. Okay. It was just twenty four days ago that fifty three Levy breaks along the Missouri. River happened and five miles away stood are five foot federal v that was built to protect us from ditch six it was not designed to protect us from the Missouri because it could never happen. But it's happened twice in eight years. And and we've spoken about this. This is a Levy that it actually was raised by the corps of engineers at one point. But then they said, you know, what that was just cobbled together we'd have to take that off. And we don't have the funds to raise it to the height that you need right now. So I I'm sure I mean, we remember the pictures from March people in kayaks kayaking around town. Rescuing people do you think it's gonna flood? Again. We are preparing we are we're doing prevention. So it won't flood us again two thirds of our town was underwater. Eighty eight percent. Of our businesses under sixty nine if our homes and today half of our town is still under water because the water is not leaving. We are we have seven we've installed seven pumps, and we are pumping. But the reason that we couldn't keep that. Levy was the law was the federal levee certification law which said that we had to you can't use emergency funds for for the future you needed. We needed to tear it down and rebuild it for five million dollars. By the way, just to to reinforce how important this Levy is to your town townspeople once made a YouTube video singing a song about it. Let's just listen to few seconds of that. Remember river. So so this is a town very conscious of its place in the world of the importance of the Levy, would you going to do because as you've said, you're not someone who's debating climate change, you feel you're looking at it. Correct. Yeah. And so what are you going to do if you continue flooding at this rate? We are going to build the Levy we are going to get the money. We're gonna protect this town. We want our future. With our businesses back in her people home. We're going to continue to do everything we can. And we need the government to do what we can't do. But if you could St. these people what they're doing to the put this town back together. They're worth it. We carry fee eighty years old out in their nightgowns pajamas and had to leave their walkers, and we'll chairs and now they're all on the curb side for debris. It's just unbel- mean eighty eight percent of our businesses. We don't have to eat. We don't have a place to coffee. We don't have gas. We don't. I mean, there's nothing there's nothing, but we are putting together we are not laying down and they're not getting get away with this. Well, look, we know your town has started a gofundme me for relief and recovery. It's raised six thousand dollars towards a huge twenty million dollar goal. And we know that people have driven cross country to bring you supplies that you've needed after flooding in the past. So we'll we'll keep following the story of your attempts to get the Levy build and just wish you so much luck. As this water hits your way. Thank you for doing the interview, we appreciate it. Fifty years ago this month, a new performing arts center opened a critic for the New York Times described it as one of the most ingeniously worked out, art complexes, anywhere. But it's not in New York. San Francisco or any other big city for that matter. It's in our Bana, Illinois this weekend, the Cranford center for the performing arts celebrates its fiftieth year Christine Herman from member station. W? I L L tells us why it's a favorite with audiences and musicians the Krant center is a massive reddish Brown brick building on the campus of the university of Illinois. The building itself is oddly shaped because it houses four different theaters each with a different height and structure uniquely suited to the purposes they serve take the full linger. Great hall. The acoustics. Here are so good that for years the entire Chicago Symphony Orchestra drove several hours through the porn fields of central Illinois to record pieces like this Mahler symphony number seven which won a Grammy award for best classical performance in one thousand nine hundred seventy two. Kranitz center director, Mike Ross says the great hall is masterfully designed with the hung ceiling structure that allows the sound to move up and over and resonate within the space. So it's ideal for symphonies and chamber music reputedly here. This is the finest acoustic in America and competes very favorably elsewhere around the globe. So is there not a single bed seat in the great hall where we certainly like to say that the festival theatre at Cranford has a large traditional fly tower, which stagehands us to literally fly scenery or people onto the stage and introduce other special effects, and in the coal, well, playhouse, the human voice carries? Really? Well, that makes it I deal for spoken. Word performances. The entire nine acre credit facility was designed by architect. Max Brahma bits. He's known for his work on the David Geffen concert hall at the Lincoln. In center in New York among other famous buildings. Ross says ever since Cranford opened in nineteen sixty nine people have been surprised to find a performing arts center of this caliber in a city of fraction the size of Chicago caught the attention of the cultural elites on both coasts and elsewhere. The surprise factor of having the most comprehensive and beautifully designed performing arts complex to come into being coming into being right here in the heartland. What Ross means by comprehensive design becomes more clear, if you ventured down from the massive lobby that connects all four theaters on the top floor and see what's down below below or levels house rehearsal spaces with the same footprint as each of the performance halls. And in production shops student artists work alongside professionals to create props costumes and sets for upcoming performances. Some are student productions others are commissioned works with artists from around the globe. When the Mark Morris dance group from New York was here last month. They taught several free classes, including one geared toward families and kids of all ages. And Ross says he works hard to bring in artists that pushed the bounds of the kind of art most people might expect to find it a place like Cranford that includes creating a guitar festival. That boasts both local guitarists in bigger names. Like Steve Dawson this piece from his latest album combines acoustic guitar with a string quartet. John frame is a classical music critic for the news gazette and the host of public radio classical music program. He came to central Illinois in nineteen sixty five and was dismayed to find a dearth of professional recital halls with profusely, slim and the landscape for first rate performances was pretty dim and then along came the credit center. And so an explosion of opportunity in visiting symphony orchestras to play in the fogy great hall. I'm really impressed by the extremely high level of artists who come there. Hetty Weiss is an arts critic for Chicago's public TV station WTT W, she says while the arts have long been centralized in big cities artistic communities have developed more regionally in recent decades and the Kranitz center at the university of Illinois is part of that trend held a school them becomes, you know, something that operates beyond. End its student body. It creates a community that connects you know, the larger community with the university. And that also I think opens up opportunities that people living. There might not have had ordinarily crooner director, Mike Ross says opening up those kinds of opportunities for all people is at the heart of the center's mission over the past. Nearly four decades credit has brought in hundreds of thousands of public school children from across central Illinois to see performances raw says most small town kids wouldn't otherwise get a chance to see in the stories that we hear from people who were I touched by those experiences when they were kids and now are bringing their own kids. The impact of that over time. Just can't be overestimated believe and looking ahead to the next fifty years. He says the Kranitz center will continue to work to make the arts accessible to all for here. And now, I'm Christine Herman. Hand full disclosure. Yes. I am from Vanna. And yes, I've spent a great deal of time at Cranford my dad and his stroke performed there. It is an incredible place. Happy fiftieth here. Now's a production of NPR and WB are in association with the BBC World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson, Robin young. This is here now.

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Theonomy with Todd Bordow and Chris Caughey

Theology Gals

1:07:49 hr | 6 months ago

Theonomy with Todd Bordow and Chris Caughey

"Gospel is a very particular word or kind of speech in the Bible from Genesis to revelation. The Gospel is God's promise of son who will crush the serpent's head forgive the sense of his people raise them from the dead and give them everlasting life solely on the basis of. His grace for the sake of Christ. If you're interested in the beginnings of the Church you know I think looking at. The crease is a great way of getting into churches. We can really see where I came together in the scripture who way it presents discernment is actually the skill that you develop where you're able to identify goodness and what was surprising to me is that is much the way we use language discernment outside the Church. The real difference I would say that what Patriarchy teaches versus where we should believe what they believe about the nature of minimum that there is something fundamentally different about authority in submission between and that's not just like within particular relationships but minimum and women in general. This is their day trip. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment the duties required in the ninth commandment preserving and promoting truth between man and man? The Gospel never tells us something to do. The Gospel tells us about something. That's been done. Hi Welcome to Gals. I'm coleen sharp. And my co host is Rachel Miller and tonight or today. Whenever you're listening we have the host of the glory cloud podcast with us. Todd Bordeaux and Chris cohe and we're GONNA be talking about the economy and I know we've had both tod and Chris on before. But I would really like each of you to share just a little bit about yourselves in your backgrounds. Todd why don't you start okay for those who don't know me from the other podcast? I started out as a youth minister and for many years in the Evangelical Church in L. Attended Westminster Seminary California in the nineties. And after that I became a church planter for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church die planted three churches. Obviously when I say I planted with a lot of help but then I became the pastor of cornerstone. Opec here in Houston. So miam- Dave his from Westminster and then my doctorate of ministry has from reformed theological seminary in Orlando. I'm Chris caught he I also went to Westminster Seminary California a little bit after Todd We had some some friends in common. That were still there when I was there. And shortly after graduating Due to the influence of Meredith Kline Who taught an I talk about all the time on the Glory Cloud podcast? I wrote The tale of two atoms It started out as a A refutation of Norman Shepherd but I turned it in to mostly positive presentation of a Klein's Biblical theology in his Covenant Theology And then I went on to do a PhD at Trinity College Dublin on Antonio Mechanism and the Mosaic Law but Right now I am hosting the Glory Cloud podcast with todd and I just wanted to mention that. We will link your book in episode notes if anyone's interested and we highly recommend it as I was mentioning a discussing before we started recording I don't know a whole lot about like the history of the enemy and all of what's in what in Camp downy encompasses so I was wondering. Chris. Maybe could you talk a little bit about the history of the enemy. You know where it came from how it's evolved etc. What types true? Well I think it would be helpful to start out by Pointing out that in a very technical way theon is very very new and I think we could trace its beginning to nineteen fifty nine when Rj Rush Junie wrote by what standard an analysis of the philosophy of Cornelius van til The word theoney itself had really been used for the first time in conservative reformed circles the year before in nineteen fifty eight when van til wrote a syllabus for one of his courses called Christian theistic ethics In that syllabus. He said and I'm quoting here. There is no alternative but that of Theon Emmy and autonomy nuts the end of the quote. Now What van til meant by that is that we can either submit are thinking to God's revelation or we can continue on in our rebellion against God and reason as if God's revelation were not true and Apparently the theological liberal named Paul Tillich had used the phrase Theon humous ending a US theon ethics before van tilted but especially since Tillich was an existentialist. It's not immediately clear what he meant by the autonomous ethics but it is an interesting question whether band 'till may be got the idea for the word theon from Tillich but you can already see how van till is right at the heart of this new theological system. In fact I would go so far as to say that. Without men till's precept positional apologetic. Six I don't think the economy could survive now. I don't mean to lay the blame for theon. Emmy at Van till's feet but when van till talks about the antithesis the idea that we either know things by thinking gods thoughts after him or by rebellious Lee reasoning as if we were the standard of truth in ourselves when Ben till talks about that kind of antithesis. The economists really latch onto that. And they talk about pressing the antithesis. And we can talk more about that if you want to. It is interesting that almost all the major theon economic thinkers and writers were students of then tells at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. You had RJ rush Dooney and then Gary North in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. But it was really greg. Bonds in in the nineteen seventies who really popularized the enemy in nineteen seventy seven bonds and published theology and Christian ethics. And in that book he defines the enemy as the idea that all civil governments of all times all places ought to enforce the mosaic law in exhaustive detail now bonds and was willing to make an exception about the ceremonial laws about Sacrifices because of acts ten where God tells Peter in a vision and that he can now eat foods that were formerly considered unclean in the Mosaic Covenant but bonds and thought that every single law in the Mosaic Covenant. That was not a ceremonial law. Ought to be enforced by every civil government of all times and places. So I mean that's in a nutshell but I do WanNa talk for just a minute about what we call the the threefold distinction in the law and that threefold distinction is between the moral law the civil or judicial law and the ceremonial law and this distinction is important because while there have been other problematic views in church history about the law and how it applies to civil governments after old covenant Israel. The enemy is unique in that it. Consciously and systematically calls for civil governments today to be enforcing the civil law or the judicial law of the mosaic covenants and the civil laws are the majority of the laws in the Mosaic Covenant. The moral law is really summarized in the Ten Commandments. And the ceremonial laws. Govern the priests and sacrificial system so everything else is considered civil law to this would be like the some discussions. I think I've seen online about whether or not we should still have like stoning for adultery or exactly so That's an example of someone saying that not only should we should the civil government be enforcing the The mosaic law but that it should be enforcing it in exactly the same with the exact same punishment that God prescribed in the Mosaic Law. It's not enough to put someone in the electric chair or use lethal injection. They actually want a stoning. Well I think I think. The passage about disobedient children would be very scary exactly to think about one of the things that I see when you see discussions on Theon. Amy is on some of different types. Where want the honest will say something in another theonest will say oh well? I don't believe that so is there a lot of differences between the animus in how they're viewing this? I have only been on the receiving end of theodomir subscribed to it myself but I get the sense that there are different schools in terms of you know someone follows. Bon someone else follows. Maybe Gary Demar or some other thinkers but they they do tend to have some nuances. Todd do you have Maybe something more specific to contribute on that he. I mean sometimes there's a distinction of Yanni and then simply being a sort of a theocrat in the sense that the law in general the moral law and some will say it's only the moral law that should be enforced not the civil and so they would see laws against Working on Sundays. Because it's part of the moral law in their mind or laws against we. Would we would punish you know. People who fornicated outside of marriage because it's a breaking of the seventh commandment so you have some who would say. I'm only a Fiat amidst in the sense of the Ten Commandments. Others would say no. Judicial Law is not just given to Old Testament Israel but as a standard in ideal for all nations and so you have disagreements among them with the same general presupposition that the Bible gives us the laws by which the state is to cover. That's helpful you know just one more. Follow up because this occurred to me. I don't know if you've seen some of the discussions on mine assassin discussions on twitter. I WANNA say it was a couple months ago. Where there's some of these the autonomous saying. Oh we are. We are all the autonomous. Because Sabin's God's law we should love God slot. You know the sort of thing and some of the attacks on people that were disagreeing with beyond me. I don't know if either of you had seen some of those things going around social media. Yeah I ended up jumping into one of those and creating a bit of a storm with the person who made that unfortunate claim. I mean yes the if you understand the etymology of the word it does mean God's law but we can't pretend that nothing happened after van til said you know that quote that I mentioned earlier along. Come vandal students who make a complete system out of it and there's no going back now so todd why should we be worried about the enemy and let me say in my and I don't know if this is the case it's just in my own life but I remember when I was newly reformed in the nineties? There was You know I knew a lot of and It seemed to die down some. And maybe there's a revival of it now I don't know and just my own perception but should we be concerned about it. And why should we be concerned about it? Well this is going to be a rather long answer so I'll probably stop split it into but when dealing with Theodomir and why be worried about it. We have to consider the narrow question and then the broader question or the broader problem. The narrow question is more a theory of governance and so Christians get together and they say if we were in charge of Christians were in charge the government. What should they do. What law should they enforce? And where would they find that standard? So it's more a question of what ideally should be the law of the land. How should we vote if one of US becomes a president or a magistrate white what laws should we implement from the Bible in? How now in the narrow sense that's a somewhat innocuous question because I think we all know that's not GonNa Happen. So president trump is calling the church asking for what mosaic laws he needs to enforce and no one's listening to the church how to govern. The State is not listening to the church. We are not ruling so it it tends to be more of a theory for us and and even more as time goes on and so you know Christians can sit around asking the question than asking well know if we were making laws. What would we do about marijuana legalization or whatever do what what part of the Bible we go to? Is it even proper so in VAT sense? There's not much to worry about. The animus aren't gonNA take over in the bigger picture of how many people in the world there's probably a Theon animus compared so it's on the level of simply the narrow question of the feary brothers can disagree certainly in my past. I'm about as far as if he automated. Well maybe Chris is a little more than me. But I'm about as on the other side is it can be and yet there are some that were friends of mine and they were in ministry longer and I would go to them for pastoral council a seem to keep it on the level of fear. Their view is different but it didn't affect the way we saw the basic things now. The problem though is not the theory. It's the ideology that comes with Yanni and the ideology is very damaging it brings division and legalism and an example. I could gave his on. Someone asked me my view of homeschooling. I tend to say depends what she mean humane homeschooling as a theory of education or home schooling ideology as a theory of education. It's fine it's as good as any other. Every packed can do educate the way they think is best and you know in our church. We have parents that do all different types of education and that's fine but often homeschooling comes with a religious ideology which says anyone who doesn't do this and puts their children in public. Schools is in San or they believe that by homeschooling they can control the spiritual life of their children at things will turn out right for them. It often brings all kinds of division in the Church of who does it quote unquote God's way and so there's a homeschool feary which is fine and we always support breath parents who free then. There's a homeschool ideology which can be very damaging. I think we'll see the difference and the same is true for Fiat. Amy So let me stop there because I want to give about four or five examples of how the ideology is so damaging to the church but so here is the problem that many if not most of those who adopt Fianna me adopt also the ideology surrounding the enemy and one of them that is very destructive to the churches to suggest that the Lord has given the church to mandates in our relationship to the lost instead of one mandate very important in the Bible. The Church has one mandate with with regard to the lost in that is evangelism. It is to present the Gospel to them to love them with Christ's love and to see them converted to Christ. We work impre into that. And that's our mandate theon. Emmy ideology suggest there are two mandates given to the church evangelism and political or cultural transformation. The the goal to establish the law of God in the land. And so now we are in this view we have two mandates instead of one and one of the ways they do that as they tweak certain verses that traditionally have been understood as the one mandate for example the Gray Commission in Matthew. Twenty eight they the Fianna tend to take disciple the nations as proving. There's a second mandate simply to preach the gospel to them but disciple or teach the nations high to implement God's law for a Godly Society but clearly in Matthew Twenty eight to disciple the nations as simply shorthand for disciple. The people of the nation's who you reach that the Gospel when we get to the book of revelation and all tribes of the Earth are before God off the nation's themselves are not before the Lord but redeemed out of each nation and when it says Baptize I we obviously cannot baptize nations be baptized individuals. So what traditionally was seen as the one mandate for the Church to preach the Gospel in mind their saved the baptize them and teach them how to serve. The Lord Jesus has become a to mandate view that the church is not only to do evangelism but they are to transform the land and to establish God's law now when you have two mandates instead of one what's eventually going to happen. One of them will be made them is. You'll only have passion. Eventually the other will be crowded out. And unfortunately that's what tends to happen. In theon EMMY CIRCLES. I mean if you consider a Theodomir conference. You know what's going to happen. It's going to be about culture about politics had influence culture and politics. When's the last time you've seen a theon? Emmy Conference on how to Share The Gospel. And so you see what happens right way? Okay and you know what I as you're talking can actually think of specific examples of what you're talking about right and so you know. The criticism is criticism is often. If you tell the church there's only one mandate then they won't care about the things of society in this world but of course we care about things as good neighbors and even though we understand those things in common grace are temporary but the church has an institution has given one mandate and I often say to people a million people every week in this world. Die a million people a week die and enter a Chrysler's eternity. Please explain to me. What SOCIAL OR POLITICAL ISSUE? The church needs to be passionate. We don't have the time resources for the church to be focused on trying to change society. According to God's law it's not even the mandate given to the church. Certainly you don't see the apostles doing that talking about that. They are preaching the Gospel the individuals and then strengthening churches so the one mandate to the to mandate idea which is an ideology of Fianna. Me has done a lot of damage to the purpose of the Church and what we should be focused on and often it it. The second mandate ends up working against the first one because our is our desire to establish laws where non-christians are killed. Because they worship other gods. That's how was in the old cabinet or is our goal to reach them for Christ So that's that's one of the problems in a serious problem of ideology. That's only the first one so you may want to go back to Chris. I had a quick question as describing this. I know that a lot of what I've seen from theon tends to be what I would consider a right or centre right politics. But I've seen similar arguments made about changing the culture and and such and our role is Christians from more progressive or left leaning type Christians as well they still consider themselves the ministers that something totally different now the left would not use the term but we would argue that they are using the same hermitic thinking other words. They are wrongly using the Bible to determine what laws you know this liberals tend to use. Let's say the sermon on the Mount for nations. The autumns tend to use the Old Testament law for nations stem. Problematic her nudie but different application. I know that Tom Chris that y'all talk a lot about Klein and how to apply. What Klein is written to various situations? On on your podcast. So Chris could you talk a little bit about how Meredith Kline refutes the enemy sure There are lots of ways that Meredith. Kline refutes theoney. I think that one of the most important ways is by identifying a covenant based on the principle of common grace The idea of common grace is that even though Adam and eve deserved death instantly when they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil God gave them and all of humanity. Really a stay of execution by promising that children would continue to be born even though d through excruciating pain. The people would continue to get married even though marriages would be fraught with all kinds of problems The people would continue to work and have food to eat. Even though not work would be difficult and frustrating. In other words at the fall God was giving human beings blessings that they didn't deserve an which they had actually forfeited by their disobedience at which we can identify that as the principle of grace. But it's not saving grace. It's not a grace that results in eternal life in heaven. It's a grace that is concerned only with life in this world and so we call it common grace because both believers and unbelievers share this grace in common saving grace belongs only to believers in their children so Kline says that this covenant of Common Grace began at the fall and will continue until Christ returns but all of the benefits of the Covenant of Common Grace. Will End at that point when Christ returns. Plus Klein identifies three institutions. If you if we can call them that the belong to the Covenant of Common Grace. The family the state and the culture and that's important because it means that by God's own design the family the state and the culture are not wholly at least after the fall. That doesn't that doesn't mean that the family the state and the culture are unholy. It just means that they are a non holy now. Why is that so important? Well because after we first encountered the principle of common grace in Genesis. Three just a few chapters later. We have the flood. The world has become so overwhelmingly wicked that God brought about a miniature version of the final judgement with the flood that simultaneously drowned the unbelievers and saved Noah and his family but after the flood when Noah and his family left the Arc God made a covenant with all of creation not just with a holy chosen people and in Genesis. Eight Twenty One and twenty two. God says I will never again cursed the ground because of man for the intention of Man's heart is evil from his youth. Never will I neither. Will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done while the Earth remains seed time and harvest cold and heat summer and winter day and night shall not cease? So here's the bottomline even if you disagree with Klein about the family of the state in the culture being common or non holy the point is that God is not going to strike down every living creature like he did in the flood even though he acknowledges that the intention of human hearts is evil from their youth and to try to bring about some system like that does strike people down for their wickedness is to try to get God to break his promises his promise in Genesis. Eight one and twenty two because at that point you are trying to introduce the principle of final judgment while the Earth remains. Now that also condemns a broader idea. That's related to Theon Emmy. And that's the idea of theocracy. Klein has a very precise definition of theocracy. Which is very important but the way we could understand theocracy outside the mosaic covenant. I think is really hopefully by Lee irons in his paper titled Reformed Theocrat S- and he says that Theocracy is a form of civil government in which a the civil authority confesses in its official capacity commitment to a religious system of belief. Be Such confession being understood as necessary to the Civil Powers Rightful Authority and see thus entrusting to the civil power the duty of enforcing that religious system of belief the pub public realm. And that's the end of lease quote so even the FIA critic principle that we've seen in church history since Constantine would be an attempt to try to introduce that principle of final judgment against sins while the earth remains But Klein has other arguments against the enemy is well in broader terms. Another very important argument. Is that the civil or judicial laws of the Mosaic Covenant were part of the type of logical covenant of. Works so to pretend that those laws are God's inspired blueprint. It's for all civil governments at all times and places is to want to place all of humanity back under an intolerable covenant of works that condemns us as sinners After all in acts fifteen ten Peter Asks the Judy is irs in front of the Jerusalem Council. Why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear in relations? Three nineteen the language that Paul uses means that God added the Mosaic Law Alongside the Abraham at covenant of Grace in order to produce or another way we could render that is to even provoke transgressions in other words the mosaic law was not a practical handbook to civil government it was designed by God to cause Israel to sin in the uncontrollable way that sinners Dusen My favorite analogy is from mixed martial arts and I like to say that Israel should have realized that they were being forced to tap out to indicate that they were beaten by their own sin and that they needed a better Israel to obey God for them so. Those are at least two arguments from Klein. Chris I have a little bit of a follow up question. It fits exactly into what you're talking about but it's something that keep thinking about since Rachel and I've talked a lot about federal vision and you see a lot of the people that are federal vision are also Theon Animus. Is there a theological reason for this? There's I mean we don't want to commit the genetic fallacy but there is some DNA so to speak to the connection between federal vision. Anthony One is That Norman Shepherd is At least neck deep probably deeper than that in the whole federal the Federal Vision Theology and the whole movement. He's been invited to speak at some of their conferences It's no accident that Greg bonds and was one of Shepard's students while he was at Westminster in Philadelphia so Bonn was drinking from Shepherds well of seeing the principles of Works and grace in all covenants And that Law Gospel Distinction shows up a loud and clear in the Federal Vision Movement I'm not completely sure how Someone like Doug Wilson came to be a theon amassed. Although I'm sure you know he would. He would deny that term but when you hear his views on the law. It's it's the enemy and I've I've had run-ins with pastors from the C. R. E. C. And they are definitely and they would they would even own the term theonest so I think last I saw Wilson owns it. Also actually okay. It just seems like he's kind of like John Frame and that he likes to be a little bit slippery and not own the term while he owns the concept but if he owns the term fair enough I was. GonNa add though to Chris's point that the other thing you see the economist do with the law and that's dangerous for. Christians is to assume that Christians are under the Deuteronomy Twenty eighth and twenty nine blessing and curses and so not only do they say that about nations that God curses nations today based on the same Legal arrangement he had with Israel. So if there's a certain amount of laws that they implement that are ungodly then you can expect the type of judgments And then if nations changed their laws than we can expect blessings so they bring the principal wrongly to apply to the common grace culture and then they attempt to read God's Providence of what the nation is doing wrong based on whatever suffering is out there we've seen all the kinds of these kinds of things with virus heavenly. Yeah I was just thinking as you were talking and the those that I have seen you know. I've seen things like the virus judgment for abortion in the United States or things like that it has been from the animus. So that's that's interesting. Do you mind if I finish the point about the dangers of Yanni. Oh yeah that would be fined one. Some of the other things is when I mentioned the blessings and curses. I've read many. Fianna also include that Christians that Christians rendering arrangement that we receive blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience Because that's what we see in Deuteronomy for Israel under the law and that of course really ends up denying the work of Christ and taking our curse upon himself and that all our blessings come through him in him represented us to to consider own works for lack of works as the basis for our covenant blessings incurred scenes is obviously very dangerous but it's a very common debris that a few other matters. What the dangerous things that come with the ideology is they tend to redefine concepts in a very dangerous way for example the word salvation in scripture salvation is always used for individuals in individuals saved and even when it uses more generally speaking of the world. The context obviously means the elect or people in the world not cultures when we start to use salvation to speak of politics. You know five heard. Fianna say the Gospel promises that politics will be redeemed Culture will be redeemed. See what we ended up doing. His profaning the word because salvation always refers to being part of the new creation and politics and culture are part of the old creation only so as soon as we broadened these definitions begin to lose their meaning. And that's exactly what classic liberalism always did is they brought in. They didn't deny personal salvation but expanded upon to include the Common Grace World. Then over time what was minimize more and more was personal salvation so neither use our language Biblical language. Very clearly salvation is the salvation of sinners redemption the redemption of sinners if we speak of the world in any sense being clan store. It's the new creation. It's not something that church can do by implementing some kind of law and so the redefining of concepts becomes dangerous and a few more the arrogance that tends to be around. Fianna me because they assume like you said that if you don't love God's law and use it the way they suggest you're an anti no me and you're a dispensational you separate the Old Testament from the new and like the distance. You're not stick. You don't believe in the physical realm that that the physical round can be redeemed. And so there's an air tea among Christians and it causes all kinds of problems in the church because they're fed this type of silliness. And as you said there's a fear tactic who doesn't want to be for God's law right who wants to be known as someone against God's loss either agree. This is how the law should be implemented or your sort of vilified and so that type of arrogance in the church and anyone. Who's been a pastor for awhile knows this actually don't even have to pass to ride. You've seen it you. And then there's the legalism. If the Bible Establishes God's law not only for God's people but for every aspect of society and pastors become experts on everything and that's a recipe for control and abuse so now pastors get to instruct you how to vote on every issue how to school your kids. They become experts economics because they think the Bible Answers. What kind of economy we should have that. That's the purpose they become experts in criminology. Because they're trying to use the Old Testament. Criminology has some sort of guide on what should be today. And so what happens is there's a lack of freedom for Christians they have to follow these rabbi type leaders who are self proclaimed experts on everything because they're misusing the Bible. There's no rest with this. Everybody's always worried. Am I taking every square inch correctly with this movie Everything I do. Is there a Bible verse? That backs up that. I'm doing this properly. I Want God's Blessing. I WANNA do it. According to the law and so you don't find people resting in Christ as much. There's a lot of suspicion when people have different views when everything becomes a matter of God's law and it does damages people's assurance way and then the final thing you see a lot is they tend to in the ideology take on the role of the accuser of the brethren because when they see Christians not affecting their culture. They blamed the church. Because they assume this mandate given to the church. And if it hasn't been done the churches guilty they are weak and so then they are criticized for being ineffectual and their Gospel doesn't work and et Cetera et CETERA. And and. That's how Satan that's one of Satan's to say to the church you're useless and you don't affect anything your week but we are we. That's the nature of the Cross. Is We look weak to the world. I mean Ditka aims the politics of Israel no and so in three years. The son of God himself was in Israel any did not affect the politics our culture of Israel an actually got worse because of his presence. Are the Chinese guilty of not having a robust Gospel because they continue to live under communist oppression. Why haven't they changed their culture? There's there are hundreds of millions of professing Christians. What about the Jews in Babylon? How did that change Babylon and so you see what happens? The fruit of Fianna me. The ideology does a lot of damage and has to the church. Let me ask for your thoughts on that. Maybe what you've seen I can say that. Certainly in the recent discussions that we've had in silver groups and online and what we're seeing with the women in stocking there is a lot of of A fear a lot of Of Guilt or redoing it the right way. We got everything correct. You know what if we don't you know but and certainly clean and I have both been charged with being an to no means for our our beliefs about belong. The appropriate uses so. Yeah it's you're right about it. There's no rest in this yeah. I was actually sharing with Chris before we record it and before Rachel and Todd came that Somebody that is the honest. Federal Vision Person was saying in a group that that I me- colleen is an antenna me and that denies the third use of the law numb thinking. How could you listen to our and think that exactly? I was thinking as you were talking about. that Got HIMSELF INTO A. I think someone invited him into the merit of climbing facebook group and he wanted to talk to me so we spent three or four hours of my life that I will never get back on skype. And he told me that a lot of the points that you just made about. Jesus not changing. You know the the Roman government or anything like that that those are all arguments from silence just because we don't read about it in the Bible doesn't mean that Those efforts weren't underway interesting. Todd one of the things we talk about the enemy and I know a lot of people have seen that style hair by what standard and I think even there might even be. People might not even understand what the argument that is being made from. Animist because you had recently the founders Senate doc was called by what standard and I think some people are using it in different ways so maybe you can explain what the by what standard argument is and what the argument against. It is so the by what standard argument is simply a false dichotomy. Chris said the Old Testament Laudi. Israel is redemptive historical Which it comes on the heels of a covenant relationship and so the law was never given to the other nations the law was given to Israel and so caine in is a type of heaven. That's very clear and the Israelites. In the Old Testament are type of the spiritual seed as Paul Explains Installations. Three and Romans nine and so. It's a misuse of the law. Given that the old Covenant Nation of Israel prefigured the Church in heaven and so we cannot simply divorce the law from its covenant context and then use it in a in a in a way that it would never was intended to be used for example. The people you know the nation's warrant ever accused of violating the civil laws of Israel or the ceremony laws of Israel when the Prophet spoke to the nation's they are always the we would call moral law or natural law. What they already knew in their consciences. Were wrong and so they were even never held to that standard. And if you look at the New Testament every time in Old Testament law is cited and I mean every time it's always fulfilled in the covenant. People never fulfilled outside in the world. And so it's illegitimate question. Because it's a misuse of the law. I mean I could ask the A theon amidst the question about medicine if you are a scientist or a doctor and you want to find a cure for cancer. By what standard. Are You finding the cure? What are you you are using the Bible and they would say no. That's not what the Bible was written for. We're using science okay. Then why is it legitimate to say that with medicine but illegitimate to say that with politics and I could even you think of diets? There are people who suggest that the Old Testament dietary law should be the law for Christians. Now we're my may that maybe make Christians healthier. Maybe but we can't misuse it to say that's what it was four. So yeah there's you could even look at the ultimate civil law and gained some wisdom about it for today but to say that's what it's four is it. Misuse of the law and so politics are of this. World is not the purpose of the Bible that God would make a covenant this world and then gave it its laws. And so I'm just GonNa Quote Calvin from Kelvin's institutes for Twenty Fourteen. And he really addresses the by the. Way Rush Journey. Hated this quote. From Calvin it says I would have preferred to pass over this matter. Utter silence if I were not aware that here many dangerously go astray for there are some who deny that a Commonwealth is duly framed which neglects the political system of Moses and has ruled by the common laws of nations let other men consider how perilous and this city is. This notion is it will be enough for me to have proved it false and foolish and so here. Calvin San the idea of using the political system of Moses as our laws is false and foolish and so it's simply a false dichotomy. He doesn't even solve the problem. Because let's say you say all right we'll be ruled by God's law not man's law God's law doesn't answer a whole lot of questions does it. How do you know whether we should legalize marijuana. Explain what Old Testament verse you're GonNa use for that and then you get to. Fiat who've never agree input twelve of them in a room and they'll all find different verses on their answer. How does that answer? What about lever right marriage where you know if if your brother dies and there's a widow Should you marry the widow? That was the law of the land. That was considered moral and right. It's never rescinded in the New Testament. So why aren't Christians practicing that today? So they ended up picking and choosing the laws they would like to see amended so it just doesn't answer the question. What about Heroin Selling heroin on the street. Where does the Old Testament law say about that? Well doesn't say anything. So now how you gonNA decide. And so it's simply a false dichotomy. Sounds good to say God's law or man's law and then who wants to say man's law but as you develop that idea for a while you realize it's a false dichotomy we simply are not giving in the Bible Platform for politics to law just like we're not giving diet and we're not giving a cure for cancer and all these things are important in their own way but it's simply not the purpose of the Bible. Let's it's extremely helpful. Thank you You Know Chris you talked about how we can use Meredith Kline to refute johnny. If if I WANNA BE OPPOSED. If I want to Potato an argument of opposition to join need to follow Klein or why. We're not with that be necessary. So Darryl heart and John Neither edit. The Nicotine Theological Journal and when I was a student at Westminster Seminary California. There were ads that were put in our mailboxes at the seminary that said you don't have to smoke to subscribe but it helps and I guess I would say the same thing about client and Theon Amy. Do you have to be a client in order to oppose the enemy no but it helps his biblical theological analysis of the Bible is so amazingly helpful because unlike the vast majority of other theologians at least whom I've read he doesn't miss the forest for the trees He's able to take in the one grand story of the Kingdom of God from Genesis to revelation. But he's able to do that because he has carefully worked through the individual passages that make up that whole story and I really think That's makes his arguments so much more helpful and so much more effective in arguing against the enemy. But since you don't need to be a client I would point out that anyone who reads their bibles realizes that Jesus and the authors of the New Testament don't described the new covenant the same way that the old covenant that's that is the Mosaic Covenant was described and when the apostles have face to face meetings with rulers in the civil government. There's no attempt to persuade those rulers to implement the Mosaic Law. They just point those rulers to Christ as the only one who can save Christians have always read the Bible that way. And that's why from the time of the church fathers we can see the basic outline of that threefold distinction in the law that. I mentioned earlier moral civil and ceremonial I. It was around the second or third century. That Tortellini was distinguishing. What we would call natural law law that can be learned just by observing the world in the way that God has made it from what he called the Sasser Dodo law or alternatively the logistical law. And he even said some things that sounded like he was recognizing that the civil laws of Israel which is the whole point of what we've been talking about that. Those were a distinct category now Having said that I would say that the threefold distinction of the law is not perfect. Not everyone agrees on which laws we find in the Mosaic Covenant. Belong to Which category moral civil or ceremonial but at least that threefold distinction means that the church has always recognized that we don't just take the whole mosaic law and apply it to every civil government of all times and places they the whole point of that distinction was that Really what's left for the church is the moral law and I mean. We can learn things like todd said we can learn things from the civil law that might be wise. But that doesn't mean that we need to enforce that law against believer and unbeliever the way the civil government enforces laws. Todd what are some other exit arguments to disprove beyond me? I let me give five. One is in this is from a paper that Lane Tipton wrote on Hebrews two which says for since the message spoken through angels was finding and every violation radiance received his just punishment. How SHALL WE ESCAPE? If we ignore so great a salvation and Tipton made the point rightly that the connection between the Old Testament punishment is his with final judgment. I think Chris mentioned that. And so here. We see every violation and disobedience received. It's just punishment the correlation to that it was it was pointing to a final just punishment which is what happens with the return of Christ. In part of that judgment is the warning. And so it's showing that the Lord was not using the tens of the law in Israel as an example of what every nation should implement he was using the the violations and punishments in Israel Tip Logically two point ahead to final judgment. And so that's exactly the connection this passage makes and we can use. I Corinthians six twelve and thirteen. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge old those outside so he received that it's not the purpose of the church to judge those outside to rule them of God's role to do that at the second coming. Well we need to make Rye. We need to make sure to follow. God is the church. So it's not our mandate to tell the world what laws to implement as if that's some sort of obedience to the Lord as unbelievers can be obedient to the Lord simply by their laws. God judges those outside. Paul says you focus on those inside the church thirdly versus that. I'm sure you've heard of my kingdom is not of this world what's interesting interesting about. That is when Jesus says this. The pilot pilot is rightly convinced by this that Jesus is no threat to his government and so that's the basis pilot declares. Him innocent pilot was right. That's the whole point. Jesus as telling him I have not I have not come nor have my followers. Come to take over government. It is not the purpose. My Kingdom is not like death by kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. It is no threat to your government is simply not the Christians goal to end. Secular government. Pilot was not wrong. Declare minutes at that was the whole point of Jesus the sharing him of that at and you have a loop twelve where it says. Someone in the crowd said Jesus teacher tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me but he said to him man who made me a judge or arbitrator over you hear if Jesus is supposed to come as a civil judge a civil ruler. Why does he always reject this ministry when it's handed to them? They're even asking him to be a civil ruler here. Even asking him to implement God's law in a civil case and he says who made me who appointed me this type of ministry this type of arbitrator and so Jesus is always rejecting this type of thing. And I'M GONNA quote Calvin and again on this first. There appeared to have been chiefly two reasons why he declined the office of Edge. I as the Jews imagined at the Messiah would have an earthly kingdom. He wished to guard to guard against doing anything that my countenance this error if they had seen him divide inheritances. The report of that preceding would immediately have been circulated many would have been led to expect a carnal redemption which day to ardently desired and wicked men would have loudly declared that he was affecting a revolution in the state and overturning. The Roman Empire. Nothing could be more appropriate therefore than this reply by which all would be informed that the Kingdom of Christ is spiritual and so. We're learning very clearly that we need to follow Christ on this and make sure that searches ministry follows Christ Ministry and then added to that is. Chris made the point of the argument from silence. If the New Testament is the fulfillment of the old and New Testament now explains how the old is fulfilled in the life of the church. Were never told to transform. The Nation's whatever told wants to address public policy Paul never once in all his letters addresses Roman policies and what the church should do about them. So the argument from silence is not only silence. It's an argument from solar script. Era that if the Bible is our only rule of faith in life. What is the rule in the Bible given to the Church? And if it's not there then what is our responsibility? We can't make it up and so we have to take the argument from silence to show us. That is not the role of the church now. Shit Christians in all they do glorify God out in the world trying to do good of course but either. You don't have to adopt theon to me to to do that. And then finally often with the absence of any direct. I mean the only other direct by the way I that sometimes is used as the misinterpretation that Greg Bonds and used of matthew five seventeen greg. Johnston taught this said that when Jesus said I have not come to abolish the law but to and he would say confirm it and he used translation of that Greek word that is normally translated fulfill it in every time that Greek word is used in Matthew it's fulfill but bonds and clearly the first time I've seen that in church history by the way but bond sin claimed that that were meant confirmed the testament law and that sort of was the starting point for Fiat Amee in the New Testament exit genetically as a terrible translation. The the only other verse that tends to be used a lot in his first. Corinthians ten five That we take every thought to the obedience of Christ and so. That's the idea that we have to consider the world view of the Bible. That answers the question of every area of culture and politics and bring it under the Authority of Christ in his law including the Old Testament law. But that's completely out of context of Paul's point. Paul denied stop his discussion. That had nothing to do with culture or politics. Oh by the way in the middle of this. I'm GONNA mention a verse about how to take over culture and politics and Christianized the context of Second Corinthians ten is evangelism. How IS THE CHURCH? GonNa Win People for Christ when people like the Apostle Paul who looked like such losers and speak like such losers about the cross which does not gather. A crowd does not seem to persuade many. How are we going to reach people? And how are you going to bring them to the obedience of Christ? That's another way of saying and again you can re Calvin on this first another way of saying. How are you going to bring them to conversion and so the the Judy is irs the people that Paul was preaching against? We're using carnal weapons to attract people to the Church and Gospel in Paul's writing. We don't need carnal weapons. We have spiritual weapons. The Gospel itself simply the Cross preached the Holy Spirit is enough. We don't need different karnal forms of persuasion and flowery language so that verse has absolutely nothing to do with the theod is typically use it for and they need to because of the silence in the Bible and so that's just a starting point of four or five arguments but I'll leave it at that. Do you think that some of the ideas within the enemy has influenced our circles at all? I just some of the things that you've talked about tonight. I very specifically seen some of the ideas among people that would not identify as the the honest. And don't even hold to me. Yeah especially outside reformed circles. You've got for example. Among many dispensationalist the idea of the Christian America where America was founded as a Christian nation. It is the goal of the church to bring them back to the vision of the founders that they assume was Christian they may never heard of the army they would never think of it in terms of implementing the mosaic law anyway but simply having a society that recognizes Christianity as the chief religion maybe even enforcing it but not really with any thought of veal testament in the judicial laws. So again there's a lot of people have bought onto theoretic ideas without ever hear hearing of Fianna me proper. You know. That's a principle. I think that Seems to be always the temptation for Christians ever since The civil government became friendly toward the church. You know if you read Christians who lived before. Constantine they simply would not have had the categories to think about any of this stuff this whole discussion that we're having would just seem like something out of the twilight zone for them But once once the civil government relaxed its policy of persecution towards the church. Suddenly some you know someone got the bright idea that maybe we could turn around. And use the civil government to enforce Christian principles even if they weren't thinking You know the Mosaic Law specifically but ever I mean now especially in democracies where We might be able to change something with with the way that we vote that that whole idea of enforcing Christian principles even stronger among Christians. I think at just lastly. Are there any resources that either one of you recommend for someone that might want to study this in more detail To come to my mind and Chris may have some more one would be meredith. Kline Kingdom prologue which it's written out of scholarly level. So there's a warning that comes with it but it's probably the best reputation of theology out there but also there's a book that Westminster Seminary California used to be called Westminster West. Put out years ago answering Vietnam making check Shin sort of respone into at guys like bonds and put out a client also has a shorter journal article that I would really recommend A. I think it's more approachable than kingdom. Prologue is it's called comments on an old dash new error It's available at Meredith Kline Dot Com. And what I really love about that article is that he he really puts his finger on the heart of the issue. And you can see how opposed to the Gospel. That theon to me is so I? I really recommend that The the exegesis of Hebrews to the todd mentioned earlier is very helpful by Lane Tipton And then Lee Irons has some helpful essays at at his website upper register dot com. And let me just add if you don't mind calling? I have to say this because people often hear the things we say and they say. Are you suggesting that the Christians and we're not talking about that? We're talking about a bad theology. Christians can have bad theologies. We all do at some level and so we're not making any personal statements about people's soul in holding to this just like we wouldn't with dispensationalist or charismatics Where we're simply talking about the the theology. Yeah absolutely appreciate you saying that and I will all the things that you mentioned the especially the ones that I can link online. I Will Lincoln episodes and I do recommend that our listeners. Checkout Glory Cloud podcast. They've recently done A series where. They've talked about counseling and some men's and women's issues and just really an excellent series. I think would be of interest to our audience. I know that Those episodes have been posted in the group. And there's been some discussion about those but I'll link some of those episodes and episode notes too. So thank you guys so much for joining us. I think this was so helpful on this top back. Thanks for having us. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about this if you would like to support the work that we're doing here at the algae gals There are few options to do that. you can support us with just a few dollars a month on patriotic and that's linked in the episode and also on our web page the algae Gals dot com. You can give a one time gift on pay pal and again you can find that link on our website and then also we do have some theology gals merch different shirts and hoodies. And then some little kids gear. So that is also linked at our website at the algae Gals dot com. Thanks so much for joining us.

Church Bible Tom Chris Mosaic Law Israel Fianna Theon Todd Bordeaux Theon Amy Klein Meredith Kline US Jesus Paul Rachel Miller Calvin San Yanni Common Grace Evangelical Church
John Prine from 2016

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

1:00:26 hr | 7 months ago

John Prine from 2016

"Yeah I you know I. I don't know what to do with the clutter. You GotTa Room. I guess it at home where where. Where does that live in national? Yeah any room that they leave to me. My wife leads to me. I love when she goes into straighten. It up yeah. I can't find anything. There's a there's an order to it's SORTA it's cosy. You know the more stuff you're surrounded by from your life what do you got in their junk. They adequately but I think it's really important for some reason I've kept in by every three years of fighting for him and seen in years and years. Yeah and I put it back the way I don't know but I got you know. I wonder about that too. You know when I sit in here because I think like maybe I could just get rid of a lot of this stuff and a lot of the stuff that you know I. I don't know if I take time to look at it or not but like you said sometimes you have that moment with something and it'll you somewhere even if it's for a second and I just don't want to turn around for it in a wastebasket right or throw it away because then you know you've lost a time travel machine. Yeah I mean it would be good if it was like something you stash right right. This surprise cash Yeah I I don't. I don't think I have any of that do you? I haven't found it yet. How long have you lived down? There lived in Nashville since one thousand nine hundred eighty moved there from Chicago's born and raised in the western suburbs of Chicago yet. Like what now? What Town Maywood? Yeah right over Madison. So we were neither noise. We were half a glad medicine and went Man Do he was to maker at the American. Can Company a really yeah. He moved up there in the thirties. From Western Kentucky to get factory work because there was no unless you Or to work in the mind or your family hit a little business or something. There wasn't really a lot of work in that part of Kentucky so him and a lot of his cousins and stuff drifted up towards Cleveland. Detroit Chicago Factory Work uh-huh and if you did get were usually sent for somebody else back home and it comes up with us and they tried out either move back to. My Dad always thought that he was going to go back. Thinking Kentucky. So you raised as if we were from Kentucky even though we were born and raised in Chicago area. And what does that? What does that mean to be raised? Like you're from Kentucky. He always thought making enough money to move back there but like you rented the same thirty eight years paid for it three times in his mind. Yeah we we're all going back right here. A member in particular day. Isis at school is like third graders. Yeah go home and find out what your original where your parents you from. What countries and little girl in framing next day in school a little girl and firmly stands up and goes on my mother's family's from Sweden and my other families from Germany and I stand up and I go pure Kentucky and avast but Dan Breed. My Dad toasted say yeah so there was a southern pride. Yeah but we we were Chicago kids and yeah but we sure appreciate it conduct because of his in his in our mothers enthusiasm for the area. That's where they were both for and is that what. What kind of. What kind of situation was there down there? Because I don't know much about Kentucky but I'm always taken with hearing stories about the south. 'cause there seems to be much more elaborate and sometimes gothic history of that region. Like I've been the Lexington but I don't know what that is totally different. It's going towards Eastern Kentucky in Lexington is area well because corresponds and everything. It's it's kind of high class. Yeah high class but also not far from Lexington. Is you'll find talented miles away. There's not much indoor plumbing necessarily in eastern Kentucky. Yeah Far Eastern right by the West Virginia Border. That's even as totally different. That's Real F- of Asia that's Hatfield mccoys at. Yeah you know is your and where was your family from the western part of Kentucky like Eleven Nashville Near. And if I go ninety miles straight north You're a mint in counting the parents. You're you're in the land of your origin exactly and you did. You grow When you were growing up did you spend time down there to grant folks mainly in the summertime. Yeah go down and visit aunts and uncles and big family. My granddad big family and we've always we still have a family reunion where we all these are all. Oh the Sma Mom's sisters. My Dad's family. They're all gone and The cousins still get together. Your cousins. Yeah some of Mu. Yeah Mitt before their children their grandchildren. It was kind of the idea. My mother told me as we've grown up and go into the family reunion. She always hoped that after their day had gone that the kids once a year tried to get together and keep in touch with your with your family which is mostly a good idea. Yeah Yeah right sometimes. It's very interesting Thanksgiving Labor Day right. So are we talking You know Fifty hundreds thirty sometimes just as little as thirty yes damsel be up around ninety no kid. Yeah M- you know. In which great now is a lot of my heart they know I have to ask the kids little kids. I don't know who yet right. But it goes over a period of three or four days. We spend it right together again. Kentucky is they're still family property. There you just meet and there's no family property you know. Nobody had any savings family property here. And where did you? Where did you first hear? Hear the music that that moved you to do music like your your grandfather. What kind of man was he? I don't know if they're connected by placing it in Kentucky Both my grandfathers were from Kentucky. Yeah one was a carpenter. That was my father's father and as soon as he would get dominant job. Yeah he would those family up and move. Oh yeah to the next city for the next carpenter job. My Dad went to something like nine different elementary schools. Up North and Darren the south. Yeah he hit a southern accent he stuttered and he was the new kid in school nasty instead. He learned that a fight redway. Tough tough guy. Yeah and And and who played music any? What was the music in the house? It was the radio. My Dad loved country music. He'd play he'd sit at night and he drink beer by the court because he claimed it was more like draft beer. A- glass brimmer court. Yeah and he'd have the Radio Sideways Zenith in the kitchen window facing the south and we had a good country station. Chicago W. J. J. D. But on the weekends you can pick up the grand opera if if you tilted it right the weather right new territory. And he's sitting there with his courts a beer and have me sitting next to him with the Orange Pop and I listened to web peers and Johnny cash. Yeah Hank Williams senior in just a Oh this stuff I listen to it because because of my dad's love for it you know I had. I realized that many years later but me I was growing up listening to wrapping row. Sure and I had an older smoothest brother. Dave was ten years. Older made decided to teach himself to play guitar and federal and Mandolin and he needed somebody to play with him for rhythm right right so he taught me how to play old. Timey country music. I just three chords and after I learned him when it wasn't accompanying him I tried to play my some of my favorite songs. Yeah they didn't sound like the record. I made up my own words. And how was it? I started doing it since I was fourteen. And and his was he playing bluegrass music with those net quite bluegrass his. Co. Like as a precursor to bluegrass. There's referred to as old timey music so like like like like what would who those artists be. Voi- like all time. He country like swing music. I'll tell you who revived. It was during the the big folk thing. Late fifties early sixties. The new city ramblers okay. They went and got a lot of those archival stuff right right back again. What was their label you know. Were they on Iran. Yeah Yeah I think you're right. Yeah Yeah right so that it's interesting about that about the folk revival in in just sort of this deegan through the musical pile of America. That it was a real conscious thing was a reaction. Wasn't it I think it was and it seems like it's coming around. We spent a lot of time over in Ireland Kuzma wife's from there. Oh it's that's the most beautiful place in the world is gorgeous. We're getting ready to go over for about a month and a half. This saw. You lucky. Pass yeah we we. We got a place in go away all sad I I envy you. I you know it's like I'm not. I've got no roots there. My Roots Are Eastern European Jew. And that for some reason I go to Ireland and I'm like I feel like I'm home. This is it's beautiful is really. Is You have family there. Yeah that's what we go back. She's got fat sisters still own Ireland. Your mother yeah no kidding yeah. They're all in Ireland Fiona Distance Romance in the late eighties early nineties. No kidding and I'd go over there. We never had more than a week off. How'd you meet her? I met her at Did a couple of shows over there. We did a A festival that was around the what they were doing was getting is guys like me and Guy Clark and yeah American folk singer songwriters together with Irish bands. Oh really about three days in Dublin Vic. No no it This is a venue. That became the venue. Vicar is what I was at. The vicar I think was that this was the old Dan Better River. I forget what they called it that we were the first music in. There's there's the old train station and so American folk artists with Irish bands. Yeah and they're still doing that. Yeah my wife. Owner she worked did One of the big studios in Dublin. She managed it and Where you to cut and everything. So she was in the music scene there and she came down to hear this things. They called the session. And that's how we met A. How did she know you before She said she came in some he when she was sixteen years old. That we've been first time that I ever played Ireland. And what year would that have been? What went never been nineteen eighty okay. So she came to see me and Jeevan thinking about you. Ever since I was in the back of her mind I made an impression exactly after the sessions. After this thing. They threw a party for the artists. And it was a horseshoe shaped by and buddy of mine was standing about ten feet away from me owning guitar up and saying Hey John come on over. Let's play a few tunes. I couldn't physically get from where I was to him. Because the borrowers like ten deepened each. Yeah Yeah Yeah so. I had to go around long in the far into the bar. Naturally she was standing a little red headed Blue Singer the nude in Ireland. Yeah Energy said coming here job. Meet this girl. We've been together ever since. So that's sweet. So you guys been together since. Nineteen eighty-one Eighty one thousand nine hundred nineteen eighty and this is you've been married before twice this music business. Let's stay stay on the road and those are the songs that you know. It's it's a sad fact but it's true it is right some of the best songs written your sound writer. Yeah break your yeah void or some great songs. Dan Area is the get to a point. Maybe I don't know if you've got this point where you're like. I don't know if I need another one no I I know. I know sometimes where I'm going through periods and not writing. Yeah you say to me. We're we're happy to do your read as well when you were writing songs in the Ireland thing though we were talking about a folk music and I felt like we were moving in a direction where you were about to talk. Maybe about the folk music of Ireland. I noticed this is about seven. Eight years added the buskers on the street. Out and go away and then we're starting to play the old timey songs country songs the Pre bluegrass rock there was becoming popular amongst I'm talking about eighteen. Nineteen twenty year old. Yes and here. I'm going head here that you know right. Why is that becoming popular again? Isn't that interesting really is getting desert aren't owns full circle because those. I think those Celtic rhythms are definitely part of the Appalachian that we're starting came from Scotland. That rhythm in the way of playing and I think some of the fiddle to right and and the barricades about taking a girl down reverend sure murder drowned in all those those happy Celtic theme. That was a successful date. Oh my God but when you started out so you're listening to the grand old opry music and your brothers doing that that That type of music the Old Timey Music and your dad's listen and what's becoming modern country or or the the great country artists and you're listening to rock and roll and the folk explosion certainly hadn't happened yet. And so what are you? What are fiddling around with my went. With the way my brother Tommy to play on which was old timey music and Bluegrass and and it was familiar to you because you listen to country a and I was as I wrote my songs with the only way I knew how it my brother would have been big chuck Berry Fan Right. Maybe our learned electric right from the start right and wrote my songs to go to a different of blues sort of base thing but it was just having that that's the way he taught me the A- and I wasn't going to go to somebody else and learn how to play rock and roll. Yeah well you're probably better off giving the thoughtfulness of the lyrics and the sort of You know you want the lyrics to be up front right you know. And and there's something about country music and that lends itself to putting them aware except front. It's about it's about the story. If your net check very targeted story in rock and roll story I think that's really true and I think like I get what you're saying about the because it seems to me that just getting back to that you starting to hear that old time music on the streets in Ireland sort of led to the Mumford and sons. In sort of resurgence of singer. Songwriters in that vein. Were seen a lot of that now. It's sort of an amazing thing because your generation of guys are the guys right before you. I mean there were some heavy dudes around back then that that did that did thoughtful. I. I think it's primarily country music. I guess you could call folk music. What do you call Your Music Pretty good this country is a great. Yeah but the ego to Nashville when I got the national yeah. I didn't move there to become a country star. Sure just moved there because a that's where I was having fun. Yeah well yeah. It's interesting though because like because your music is straightforward and and it it does come from that source that I noticed in a lot of the records. You know the tone of the record. You're always going to be you. You're going to write John Prime Song. You'RE GONNA play John Prime Songs but depending on. Who's in the studio with you or who's producing the album and what they're going to bring to it it really it. It changes the sound and I guess when you do that like I listened to the record. Which one do I listen to pink Cadillac yesterday? That you know you're working with some of the Sun Guy some Phillip Scott and and Sam come in and do to two songs. Yeah but this is Sam. What in his seventies right. Yeah but he was he was on it. Yeah he's a wizard right I think. Initially he came in the studio because he he says boys were doing a project anyone to gang. Give him an extra put all really. I think so. I don't think it was my my singing ability to drew Sampha. Sam were known Ga- Sam Things. He heard my voice he thirties. He there is so bad that you would stick around translates said he is he still around. No Sam I about eight. Nine years ago I talked to. I talked to Peter Guralnick about his book about Sun. Some recognizing book right. Yeah yeah it goes all the way back. What was when you met him. They were you at the original place in Memphis or were they so that a museum. Yeah Yeah but SAM and sixty one had built those samples recording service out in Madison. And that's where we ended up cutting and what was because it was a different record. I mean the a dramatically different approach. And and when when you were in conversation with someone like Sam Phillips About Your Job Prime Songs you know. What did he bring to him? What did his boys bring to him? That what was their idea to Sam spoken parables. He He. He looked like a character in the Bible and his big bushy eyebrows. I think he's south. Here's a character from the face. Looks like the burning Bush was behind him and he goes Darren. He would say you. Boys are walking down the street covering both sides of the street. They're so nice and then you go now. Let's talk about sex. Yeah yeah he says I want something to do push ups and you'll get let go like the opposite approach. No kidding yeah so it was. It was pretty cool working. Yeah Yeah and do you like that record. I love it when we delivered that record to Sadam record for they about five guys. Listen to it and then for them. Let's room and when guy leaned over meeting and he said John. I don't think what you have here is what you want. And that's way too sick. Just say yeah you know they just they. The the kind of records that were on the charts then was squeaky clean there. A good music now. Steely Dan were making great records but I was perfect. Technical start in the eagles were making perfectly technical records of the music and everything but I wanted to noise own sound like fab individuals in a room. Lebanon and things. Yeah and playing again. We paid for the noise and they didn't appreciate it. Was that one of those moments where you like. I got to start my own label. That was probably the beginning of May I had one more record them and I went and did it. Kinda half-hearted and said that's it and what that was the next record yes storm windows which was actually more songs written for Pink Cadillac but we left overs. Yeah Yeah Yeah but let's go back because you know this is an amazing thing about your your presence in music and I and I don't know anybody else other than people make this comparison. I imagine them not that original but but that there's very few people who are respected for their poetry and for their their their songs as much as like Leonard Cohen. A you know Leonard. Cohen SORTA holds his place. He does and you know. There's there's there's there's about four records there with that that that are that are undeniable masterpieces and and I think you're the guy you're the same place you know like I listened to. I listened to sandstone this morning and I think most people if they don't know that song should know that song so I was in that song and I'm crying again. Hey now you know when when you when you when that song came out of your heart and your mind and that that is one of your most well known songs and the power that's on transcends your war conflict or anything you know and speaks to darkness in a in a pain that that is eternally human right. What do you think of that song? Do you feel that you feel like if that were the only song you had written that that you would be like? That's that that's a great song. I did feel. Oh that about that song. Yeah Rory also though. I thought that that Song If somebody would made me a bet I were thought that the Piel that Song Mighty gone. This is one thousand nine hundred ninety one on record I thought by seventy five or seventy six. That would be a song because simple. Sometimes they deemed. They wear themselves out. You go on the right time marches on and I didn't know that that sound which stay there's veteran jars around the veteran's from other conflicts coming home served up and right messed up. They get they get out they go through all this training to go to combat and then come back and nobody. It's like people are incarcerated. They just thrown back out on the street and say Okay Man Yours again. Yeah Good Luck. Good here yeah. Yeah if you need some health coverage we gotta play check indicate you can find it. Yeah no the tragedy of that and also the tragedy of Of American life on a certain level too. I mean there's something that spoke to that and those songs and and of the other masterpieces You know a angel from Gumri was another one that was a window in to a sort of American heartache. That never goes away the you know. Yeah when I wrote those songs I was trying to explain things to myself. More so than Finding audience for because I thought it was a hobby for me. I didn't think it was songwriting. Yeah I didn't think this was something that you could make Levy night uh-huh and and surprise. Oh yeah exactly. Yeah I think that's amazing about about those songs in about your particular songcraft is there's a simplicity to it but the turns a fraser. So fucking good you deliver the first line of the couple in your candidate. What's going to happen? Oh yeah you know and it's so tight it's so economic now like I. I know you probably hear that about your poetry and about your songwriting lot. But how much when you sit with a Song. You how much how much. How much word math do you do? It's we get a good one. Yeah I could hardly write fast enough I feel like escorts. Tanaga for I feel like I'm taking the song down and put my name on it but I was just. I wanted to hear that you know. Yeah yeah he comes in like the O. Tied up in bow all right so the whole thing. It's there and there's other ones you gotta work on right and I don't like it when it appears that you've done too much work on it because it shows to me yeah especially with repeated performances of sound where you know you really had to work in patch and glued things. But don't you think you might be the only one that knows that probably unless I tell us about that as you get off stage. I can't listen to that coming out of my head but like other songs and make me cry souvenirs. Wow that you know even even sour grapes which is a little more is not as heavy but souvenirs like heavy man. I mean you know it's beautiful but But but but it's heavy now when you release these things into the world or were they when they moved through you. Do you feel a relief. Are you because I saw you in? I saw you here a while back when Connor. Open for you right I agree. Yeah and that was amazing. Because you're traveling pretty lean. The Band is a guy on based on the stand up bass in that in that kind of miraculous guitar player. You got there. He's dragged. Jason Wilber the drummer and you and you know and you know it was very funny because I talked to Connor? You listen to him. And he's sort of a natural songwriter. It's a it's a weird natural gift for him and with songwriters. The guys I've encountered you know I want them to be heavy hearted dudes that live a hard life but some of them. They're just they just got a thing you know. He's got a thing and he's up there with a full band and he's spitting and dancing and putting everything he's got into it and it's good but then you come out you know just with your Gravitas and you've and you and your little outfit there and everybody quiets down and it's just a beautifully balanced evening of a of a dude that we can all just sort of relax. He doesn't have to jump around the songs speak for himself. He's GonNa say some funny stuff and we're all going to be moved real professional but it took me a long time to settle down and enjoyed it. Oh Yeah Yeah I twenty years or so. I kept thinking he's gonNA throws up Mamere. Stand up and go ahead. Are you doing there? Really? Yeah I mean. It's David may cause. Did that happen? Where you playing in those environments and no not really I was I was well accepted from the from the Geico but you just had it in your head in my head. Yeah Yeah I'm going to be found out. It was eight months after I stepped on her stage. Their record contract. That's interesting I didn't. I sang for the first four months. I didn't quit the post office. 'cause I like don't quit your day. Job Right yeah. I don't know what's going to happen and I started making three times The cash that I was making with irregular Saturday at the post of it. I got ever get that in cash under the table. Yeah for singing. Must that's my hobbies. Yeah songs three nights a week. Yeah sleep the rest of the week hours the pinnacle. I'm fooling thank God. So that's what you did so you were playing songs when you were a kid and your point what your brother and then you got. That was your job. Your a mailman. Yeah how was that for you? It was like being in a library with no books. You'd you'd go out on your mail route and spend six hours out there walking around and wasn't like the movies where people go. Hello Mr Mailman. How are you today? Yeah people never talk to me after three years one lady at a a Seo D for yeah. That's the first time I saw her. And she said Windsor Regular Guy. Coming back I am. Your regular guy was end Chicago. Yeah and and even in the further western suburbs. Now tell me did you. How did you write those songs on your mail route? I wrote hello in there in the mail route. I wrote sandstone. No kidding yeah I mean there's not allowed to do once you're on Red Street now with hello in there do you do. What was that provoked by a moment? The Best I can remember is me here in John Lennon Sang Across the universe And had equip remember read. Had quite a bit of a echo reverberates voice. Yeah and I got to thinking about. It does have a lot of ECHO. You're talking like how going. Hello Hello in there and that led to thinking about talking to a person trying to get through to yeah and then that led to talking about old people. Yeah and that's how it came about. Yeah like taking names back in my early songs. Love taking the right names for red character. Lead here yeah the Guy Rudy that In hello in there rudy was the doug across the street. Lady would come at four o'clock every afternoon. Go really really you know for dinner. Yeah yeah that's the name of this guy's buddy really. Yeah Yeah just getting. This sounds of names. Well that well. That's that's an important thing about you know I talked to. Jason is bull about that. You know where I had to learn from Utah Nick Lowe. I wrote that song for Johnny Cash. The beast in me. Yeah Hell of Song right sure is and I just wanted to believe that Nick Lowe live that life you know. I wanted to believe that I was talking to the Guy. They lived at the mercy. It must be an imperative him Surena Song but he said to me he said I write songs. They're not all me and I'm like come on. You gotta be but you know I think like when you put this emphasis on names you know that song starts to take a life of its own. You start to build a life around. That comes part of the poetry of it and those people become real that you that. Come out of you right. And so they're they're they're party you but they're not necessarily you exactly but they're kind of all of us. Yeah Right. That's the thing about hello and there's a sort of it's a beautiful sentiment about respect and understanding of of people who are aging and abandoned in a way just by virtue of the fact that they've lived long enough to be ignored right. Wow Man is heavy shit so because they the thing it's like the Blues Music to where you talking about you know heavy hearted stuff but the but the release of them through music. It actually has the opposite effect. I always I called my outlook on the world optimistic pessimism. The admit that there is a problem. This is the problem. Give it give the character's names. Yeah and then say it. So it's kind of like the blues and you just stayed it and if there's a humorous aspect to it than that enters into it too as a dozen daily life yeah people in our town with their head down their shirt up some it gets so bad he gets Bernie. It sure you know that it ha- it should write get so bad it gets funny or gets ugly. Yeah these days. Yeah yeah hopefully again. Yeah that's the best case scenario so now. Let's talk a little bit about your relationship with with Steve Goodman. Okay Steve Goodman like I didn't realize until this morning that he passed away so young and you know because I remember he. He had a lot of records out for for a cat who passed away thirty six. I remember seeing him when I was a kid. My parents took place in the city. New Orleans was the big song right right and and but you you align yourself with him. Pretty early as a producer in his as As a cohort right well. Steve was He was well into the Chicago focusing. When I came along I came. What was that scene? Who was there Steve Goodman Fred Hosting Eddie hosting the hosting brothers This was after in the sixties. There was a scene evidently in Chicago. Did he kind of mirrored the Greenwich Village Scene? You know and From what I understood and then Kinda died out in the late sixties when like psychedelic music big nevertheless and then psychedelic music. One late sixties early seventies. Steve Gammon came. I came along. The folk scene started combat. Getting back and So you guys are just two different guys. We my own. I was thrown into same. Well like and Steve was kind of the king of it. He knew he knew every club. Every club owner knew him. Yeah and Steve came to check me out. Yeah so and he was like Little Caesar just like Edgar g ravaged in each. Steve was about five foot one and he walked up to you and get writing your face. poke his finger in your chest when you talk. I'm going. Who is this guy? I'd heard a tape of him saying city New Orleans and I had pictured in my mind that he was a tall beanpole guy was a little goatee great. And you're this little guy comes in you know as we became a media friends and he started taking me around introducing media people and it was Steve there that I got my first record contract. Oh yeah him before he did. It became his shining moment. Yeah he opens. Npr's per Kristoffersen and Christofferson was blown away with Steve Signs. Instead man you need to go to New York and GET RECORD CONTRACT. He Says No. You need to come across town. Listen to my buddy John Really. That was the kind of guy. Steve Godless his lightning bolt moment and he said No. No you gotTA GET AN AK EBB. And here my Buddy. He loved you he really did. And and that's when he met Kristofferson yet to make Chris Chris came and listened to me at a club closed already. Who are the waiters recounting? The tips floored men mopped. I was waiting to get paid. I am guitar in the case. Chris comes in with a entourage. And we've put four chairs down and I stood at that wreck in front of him on the Mike and sang my said he bought me a beer and said would you get back up there and sing those songs again and anything else you have. Yeah and I did and Chris was just he was obviously. Don't away loved and at the time were you a fan of his. Yeah I couldn't think of a more of a person that wanted to play my size for more viscous. Savaging sure I connected with his is step that he was country yet he was doing stuff like Baabda. Yeah he was really saying songs and there was nobody else in the world. Play my songs for and you're very steep drop them in my lap and playing twice for exactly. Yeah it was crazy crazy. Do Your are your memories of that night clear I got home and I said on the edge of my bed Numa my first wife. She was asleep. She woke up and I said man yet. You won't believe what just happened to me. Chris Dobson heard my songs than anyone them all again and I said they actually liked me. You know what she say she said. Okay we'll go to bed but it was amazing. It was a moment that was I was the one introduced me to Bob Dunne. Back in nineteen seventy one. How that go that all of a sudden Chris. Hey come on over a carly. Simon was opening show Schmidt creation. Chris today come regardless place. He Goes I. Won't you meet me and Goldman go over there? We're there for about a half hours. A knock at the doors Baabda. Oh Man Yeah I mean I mean and been seen in public prevent five years. No kidding. Yeah the accident and he was really low keys Woodstock. I think he'd moves Think he'd found a place begging a village by Okay. It was close to yeah and He comes in and We passing Tyron and But the third song I sing Bob starts singing with me and I think my records that out yet myself Jerry Wexler Atlantic cinema a free copy. Oh yeah he already knew the words to come. Check it out the competition. I mean render a phone booth and Co. no but I'm doing you had. This is still the first record. Yeah this is when this before. Everything you know exploded for me I'm sitting in New York City famous thousand by done. It was really crazy. That's crazy Chris. Who's my biggest supporter Chris I gotta say that I didn't realize the raptors in the music business. Kristen introduced me to his manager. He didn't you just meet publisher his label. He didn't try and steer me anywhere except towards good people And just let things artist happen. Yeah Yeah you know and I don't. I don't know many people in the music business. That wouldn't at least say hey will come on you know with the publishing music. Yeah Yeah. Chris didn't do anything but good things to me. He's like I've no sense of. He's a powerful dude has a presence in as a citizen artist as a human. Yeah I have no sense of him as a as a person because I don't know him. I know his his songs I know is acting work and I know that like he's he seems intimidating to me but he's not really a he's just has that thing about him that Yeah Yeah. He wrote some good songs man. Who are he sure he sure? Did He sure for Nashville back in a real good place anyhow? So no son. It gave a new standard to They opened some doors. Oh really yeah for Nashville people because Nashville country music is very conservative. I'm not talking to politically right. You know it was. It takes a lot to change that. Then what's in training Seattle and Fish came along singing songs not just love songs but sometimes about people being in bed. Yeah talk about that right right. Yeah Yeah we assume that that. George Tammy we're having access and talk about the reverend from their hair you Chris like Just so eloquently songs were they were still down-home uh-huh yeah and yeah that's something you share with. And that's much he must have seen a kindred He he did and I didn't believe it. Yeah it happened just like a dream. Yeah amazing and I imagine dylan like I can't get a sense of him. I have a hell Kanye. What Dylan are you dealing with? You know he's a fascinating guy and he's obviously written some great songs. But I imagine that Bob Dylan heard your songs and immediately knew it was something that he probably couldn't do. You know what I mean. That Dylan writes Dylan songs. But your songs are so efficient in poetically beautiful and and and in full of an energy that is in verbal fireworks necessarily but something that grows as you hear it you know I imagine he was like you know that guy just nailing it and it's so tight but there's no way that I can't say this for Christa if Bob Dylan and come on in the sixties and wrote the songs he did before you ensure and the stuff Ninety there. There's no way I I woulda Roy Bluegrass or something. Yeah I wouldn't have tried to go through he. He only opened the door for people he made that door and said here's the door right. Come on in and like There's an I can't imagine how many people wouldn't have taken that step to be a songwriters by the hadn't done that I write and the I forget though you know. It's easy to forget that Bob Dylan has done everything that it's one of those things where you know you're going to do it. You're going to do and then you're going to look at the mountain. It is Bob Dylan Ray. And that's what that is like. You know because he did. He did blood on the tracks. Nashville skyline did some very sort of ernest country folk records and because he had a big lead for country music festival. Does I believe Yeah No I. He's out there to these guys. Were Eighty what you did this for so long we do. I guess that's true. I mean but you so you don't want to sit down now if you sit down you do go into the post office. I don't know no no. You know what what about just not work that I do. They have a very good. Yeah you get ready to yeah. I'm good hiding. I leave the house so it appears to my family that I'm going to work or something I don't come home to about five uh-huh yeah yeah. He still looks like I do something. Yeah so now the other guy so you came out years. You're sort of the second wave a folk revival. Then so dylan was the first. Is that how that works That's the way yeah and and who else was in your your group. Was Tim Harden when you guys because of the way I was brought up your Bob Dunne and equal doses of Hank Williams rain shirt because as Chan pressman dad. Yeah sure and I wanted to get song. I wrote the fair desperate day at high That was his story and I wanted him to recognize himself in a song did he. He did he. My Dad Dad Dad about too much for my first record came out And I was able to play the record former. Took a tape tape player and tickets didn't have vinyl thing and my record yet. Yeah tape and waited for them. In Paradise was the last song on the record and he got up when paradise startling left the room and he walked into our dining room set in the dark and then came back in the room. I said why would you leave the room for? We're not played your son and he wanted to pretend it was on the bus. I thought you were going to say he got choked up. Well he probably did that way. Left and right right. Show me actually only time. I remember my polygraph. Hanks in your dad. Oh Yeah I was just little kid next summer dad sitting better this big radio. Dan The basement and just the news had come out but Hank Williams Dan here and Just like the bell out. He was the guy for for working. Where can people people? Yeah he he saying what their life was back. Great Songs Right. Great great songs and his voice was it that thing. Yeah Yeah and he was against Twenty Twenty. Seven is that crazy man really is considering. How many great songs he wrote. Yeah it's amazing what they like even with the united talking about buddy holly the other day who wrote some pretty amazing songs and a lot of songs. Yeah I think he was pretty young too. I was very young and else. Oh Cropper and Dunn so cropper. How'd do you hook up with him? How do you decide to do a record with Steve Cropper? And what we what we trying to get. Did you want some of that stack? Sound in there amid Steve. I guess a minimum out here And got to talking with him and found out he was still begging Memphis. May I record mathis at the old American studios chips moments place and I liked him about Memphis? Yeah it's only two hundred miles from Nashville ages. So how it More Memphis more gaps out. Sure we're Nashville back then at least identified more with the Charlotte North Carolina who South Eastern. Nah You know in Memphis was Demi Moore big city in southern way wanting to be a vic southern city in Nashville now is bustling. It's it is a big. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah. I love going down there growing like crazy every day. I'm surprised Jack. White has pulled into the studio. I have not had the pleasure of meeting. Jaguar Brad Him yet no bread plane and how he's get you in there. He'd be he'll he'll have you come over for a one off. They'll just cut a single with you. Erin seek APP People Prefer Burnett. But how do you not bump into that guy in Nashville? He's you certainly know him from about a mile away. He's being tall. Do I would imagine you know. Yeah I hope so So all right so you do that. Record with with Steve. And what's your relationship? How much because it looks like you got Jackson Browne's on they're doing his backup vocals and he's another guy. Imagine has a tremendous amount of respect for you and Jackson new real early when he did. His first album. Came through Chicago and played the Little Folk low-powered minute. I got started that saturate before using. Yeah Oh yeah. He had a great song after another on their Razi. Wouldn't Jackson early on? He became a buddy of ours as the few times. We came out to La early on and Bonnie and Bonnie me embody were buddies from the get-go yeah we used to Her her base pair. Free throw money. A dog named Prune and Barney's brother Steve Was would the station wagon. We turn together and it was just great. Guitar Player Oh Man but Barney was even at that age. When she was in her early twenties the Bottleneck Guitar. She was not messing around. Yeah he learned from the Masters you know which she come from money. Her Dad was John Rate. The the you know Broadway musicals only Jama game. He was the guy. No kidding. Yeah so she's a New York kid. Yeah and they were. Quakers and money was raised. Believe more out this way you know went to around Boston and Firm with that Boston. What was left of the folk scene in Boston which was a heavy Bass Blues? Yeah Yeah you know. And that's where she picked it up. She picked up. That's interesting that that she comes from like John Hammond. Jr. Another guy. I mean she came. Here buying came from a musical but it was a total different different type of music. She just picked up on the blues early on loved it loved. It Nets what she wanted to do. You know John Hammond Junior and John and seen him now in Years Brandon. Hell of a player We surely Lau thank the V. The son his day his dad without his dad know Bob Dylan and his dad and Billie holiday. His Dad right up. There was Sam Phillips. No Dow those guys they knew and not record. The geniuses weren't musicians themselves. They're very intuitive to know whether somebody really had something unique They would recognize it and give them space to grow so you and also the well. Jd SOUTHERN OTHER. Great Songwriter yes. Jd's wonderful last jd with me and my kids were boys radio with me last couple days. He reminded me when snakes on a plane came out. We meet boys Bernie go see it. There was nobody theater right just for the lights go down. There's another guy's JD. So we go sit with Jd. Whoa snakes the thing. We're odd moment. And is that your brother? He played on that record to on on Dave played a cover. My rage don't think he played on common sense. Yeah Yeah and was that. Did he have a music career of his own malice brothers? He's stated no time he band and they played around Chicago forever. He was My brother was musician Dave franny. He's done in Chicago and David wiz kid. They they have the brain. The family He actually went to college and get a degree. Yeah you know. He'll around yeah and he. He would lecture. He's retired now but he still plays music you guys. We played music. Oh Yeah we pay music. Dan at the family reunion together Scratching their cubs Gamer. And well. That's good that you got the relationship. Still Oh definitely brothers and how many you got ahead three and we lost one a couple of years about five years ago a brother. Doug yeah he's a Chicago policeman. Oh Wow living up in northern California on. It's Pretty A. He was a wild Douglas. I wanted to be like. Yeah Doug was the guy who drove a motorcycle driver one block and pushing for it to be. Yeah so we're after you did when you made your own label like I mean you see you still have Oh Boy Records. That was after after storm windows. So everything after that is all you. Yes it's all your stuff yet and now and and how when you got a new record coming out soon. Yeah we got a record Coke for better or worse. Yeah it's a collection of a a boy girl duet. Yeah I did that one about fifteen years ago code in spite of ourselves. We didn't wasn't the send on that one The Senate race. Yeah her saying to Hank Williams so jarring and she something other worldly. I believe. There's a poet and songwriter. And she's determined to she she goes out there and there's a deal. Yeah Yeah I got her in here. She's out on the road all the to you. She's she's wonderful. And who is on this one? This one is We got Alison Krauss Irish demand And I love Aris and Susan Tedeschi. No Yeah She came in with George Jones. I'd never heard before. No kidding. Oh the color of the blues and me and her toward that man I She turned out to be a real good buddies now was once. Yeah and she's just a great performer. Great Singer Yeah. Yeah and then we got 'em Miranda Lambert Casey must grave and seven new girls and Kathy. Matteo uh-huh who believe that Holly Williams you know. She's juniors daughter. Yeah I have. I have a record. We did a song to her. Grandma was famous for a really good. Audrey is used to sing with with anxiety. And you throw them telling you. Oh yeah she when she was the son order to saying she was just thrilled to be able to sing when we're grandma's sweet and now how. `bout how `bout original material. What are you turning out these days? I'm very slowly. You know trying to get ten that I really like hopefully beginning next year getting another John Frame record at their. You know I'll tell you man it's like you've had you've had a rough go of it. You know health wise not recently. I have been really lucky with it to tell you. Yeah yeah it sounds like it was some heavy stuff man. It was but at the time I felt Got Hit with one cancer right. I did and It was a neck cancer but it actually turned out. The primary was at the base of my tongue and so it was smaller than the head of a pants. Long time to get that. Yeah once they did. It didn't spread any more. But they had to do some radical surgery on a neck in order to get rid of the notes been racked and I got a great doctor down. Md Anderson Houston Texas and boy. He said I'm going to get this number of staff of spread and this is what we have to do. Once you find the doctor the doctor leaving yeah and you got something like anything related to cancer half of the edict. Dan sure because you can put yourself in their hands. The I keep telling people that. If you don't feel intuitively that you're talking to the right person. Talk to that right because they all have different ways they WANNA do. Yeah that's the scary part. And he didn't. He didn't get your vocal chords or anything. No he no. He knew I was a singer but yeah turned down and my radio fan and he went supposed to tell me how he actually shield just over my vocal chords. We do any got radiation yet. Keep the voltage from getting the hardest part of the the hardest part and when? He told me he was doing that I said. Have you ever heard me saying you back after this as I could sing sound jeopardy before I do say words and then at the end of the line dried that people go into saying get out of that? Yeah he did turn daddy at home. A record that's great and And then you got hit with another one about five years ago. Yeah with the they. Excuse me run cancer but he I mean they must have caught it within a couple of months of just starting uh-huh only because if your previous cancer you checked out right like like normal people don't right. I will get a chest x ray every six months for no other reason than you had cancer. Yeah Yeah and they saw this Reddaway. They were asked where I wanted to do and I said please go in and cut it out. Tell me their donate cancer no more. That's that's what I want you to do right They did. They didn't have to follow it. Up With the radiation or chemo. It was that fresh. Who's that knew? No kidding and I guess unless you go get regular tests that you wouldn't get a date early. Oh you got lucky. Yeah Very I just been extremely lucky with both the cancer. I got the right doctors. The axiom good feel good yeah yeah so when you come out to Hollywood now. What do you out here for this time? This time is is purely steps I never do. I'm doing interviews records it's coming at. Ya and Well I'm looking forward to it and he hung out with sturge all the other night. I had. Great Task Sturgis wonderfully Amid him a better I guess is just about a year ago and I heard his second record. Yeah and I thought boy. This guy's he's onto something right. He's really got it. Whatever it is. He's got yeah real deal and He ended up doing his latest record in the studio that kind of a partner in and drop in every once in a while and here one day he'd ever a steel player in there. Yeah next day they had these orange every orange and then I dropped it a third time. He had a moog synthesizer right surgery good. He's Got a vision. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Mix ended up. Well there's a whole crew down there that are really sort of like getting back. Not Unlike I think the the folk revival there is there is a a a sort of true country music revival going on with that Guy Cobb. The Guy who What's his name day. Yeah Dave that seems to really get like. What does George Jones record sounded like? And what those Waylon Jennings record sound like before you know. I think country got a little desperate commercially that there was a way of producing records. That was clean but yeah specifically country sounding you see here that are making that no. I do hear it would would national McCain is. It became commercial really. They would if they could make money doing that. No matter what they call it right. They're gonNA keep on doing it until it stops mega money. Yeah but because I agree with what you said about this coming on. This wave of Jason is bell after stable Ned. It's all I truly believe. In music goes in. It goes circle. Yeah people don't take so much of these wherever you cow right and they want the real stuff again. It's coming around I'm going to be seventy this year so I've seen it happen before. It just takes each guy. A patient comes around again. Yeah what I do is. I'm able to go out anytime in play as much as I want. Or as little as I want and I'm lucky that the people are still out there. Oh yeah they didn't WanNa hear those zones they love you they love you and I is a real honor to talk to you. Thank you for coming by Mark Thank you.

Nashville Chicago Chicago Sam Phillips Bob Dylan Kentucky Ireland Kentucky Steve Hank Williams Chris Chris Dave franny Steely Dan Memphis Johnny cash Jason Wilber Boston Madison Nick Lowe New York City
EPISODE 62: TALKING 80's, Fighting with my Family, and Nicolas Cage with Guest host Helen O'Hara

Talk Filmy to Me

1:02:07 hr | 1 year ago

EPISODE 62: TALKING 80's, Fighting with my Family, and Nicolas Cage with Guest host Helen O'Hara

"Come on the politics this week we go from. Mobis? We'll find a game. We're going to be reviewing family going to be reviewing triple from. And Jamie Tokes back sevens. A cloud where there are already too many film podcasts you have to ask yourself. What's the harm at one more? Ordinary men armed with unqualified opinions talk. Fill me to me. Welcome to the Tocqueville me podcast film podcast about news, entertainment, general, coach, we are back in our home away from home with good people. So who radio productions that means go awesome people with me? I'm gonna stop the guy. It's you might not him as Brian blessed under study as well as Barry Gibbs body, double and stuff, but you know, some very high during Jamie. Balmy tonight. I'll go gifts. Goose forever on Rama a bearing gifts. Now. I now you upset that when you start helping me John the podcast that we got the logo down and you're like wine on the logo. And I was like well some point it keeps going we'll we we're launching a website soon, and we've got some new artwork. Commissioners not in lieu of that for the moment. I decided to take our logo and just Photoshop you in Buchan pitcher. So I just went and got Barry. Gabe. I even put you shot in Waterworld because that's that's like your your thing. Joel that actually works. They've really does. He's a little bit. More charming pitcher can't be charming. But he's more charm in the me. So that you will. Well, star star semaines going and that leads us to our second co host. This absolute legend podcasting royalty editor at large empire as whereas marathon runner and legal advice as well. Helen, I HARA is an absolute pleasure. How you doing? Thank you very much. I'm very well. Thank you. Yes. Haven't been running marathons recent sore knee some trying to lay up from. I'm listening to your vendors trying to break down. Yep. But I absolutely loved you spoiled a special, right? Yeah. We get a little bit carried away. Sometimes some would say that doing forty minutes on a two minute trailer is too much Ellen increase enough slow down already. But you know, hey, how it goes? So for four coast of what's going to bring a bunch of talk films branded stuff and up in fortunate. I have to go to a couple of your life show beforehand. You do quizzes and give out stuff we do and the stuff you guys have is incredible. And that's the stuff give away anything. I could bring Brandon. I'll stop probably wouldn't hold up. But I also the good on social media. And sometimes you do have to deal with with people, which is sexual. Familiar with the Twitter account. Chris Evans as golden retrievers. I it's a favorite of mine in fights. Next time the void shouting out. You reminder of how good the internet. Call look that. Wow. Appreciate this is a framed compilation of Chris Evans as golden retrievers patients. This is gorgeous while most single most comforting thing I've ever seen in my life. Will it could have been worse. It could've done Trump coup fish or something. Right next to me. Just in case the podcast if in case of most difficult questions. So Chris, yes. Sorry. John frame use the budget was going on that one. Anyway, shall we start about review? Aplenty? Ready wanna around? In trouble. Is a boy pick of WWE style page. I didn't know too much about wrestling before this grew up in a non mice people now about resting in times of the cultural impact it had. But didn't know too much about the story of pay. She was born and bred in Suffolk from wrestling family. And she went on to do some amazing things at WWE. Now. This inspired a documentary on channel four and a believe it was Steve mentioned saving much should say. It was watching. I could feel it was the rock was watching. I was at the rock rock, then cold, Steven merchant and told me had to watch it. That's amazing. Yeah. My number. Of course, they worked together to fairy which I think we all remember. Does have some. I mean, that's as bad as it gets. It's still that bad WWE thing those if you remember Hogan's psych discography. Oh, yeah. A couple of battle Jones say now sign I I will say John CENA is good act like he's gone, some good stop eat it. And this is one of those movies that documentary inspired the movie to be made in Steve done, the directing and also right this film. It's really interesting cost and actually go Nick frost playing that and Jimmy love Nick frost love the accent puts on classic seven accent in suffolks, Phil I would have about Cuban fury. 'cause I love that. Phil. Who's that's not a bad film? He was in. He was in wild child with Moreau, which is like a teen movie. I quite enjoy it. And he's very funny in it. But like a lotta people would say that was a bad movie. And I'm not sure I could argue. Always four note dick frost and in a bad way. Who isn't it? Frostbite Moi's white infrasonic pig to to turn some shape or form, but he's not gonna pay. But even better he's got Lena Headley pronounce that correctly with game of thrones versatile actor today like one minute she's sitting on the frame of Wester us. And then she's in Suffolk talking about how she was on the game. So it was interesting. Interesting family, really, really interesting stuff, we got Florence Hugh correctly. And she is playing the lead initiates been tons of startling. She's one of those actors which you just going to see again, and again, her name more more on this essentially, it's about pagent. Her brother Zack who are trying to be in the WWE don't really know too much about wrestling. Learn much by resting film is the premise of this film is about resting it's not necessarily about the intricacies about hill faces baby faces or outsource stuff as you want. That film by guy watched a wrestler or something this is more of a heartfelt comedy. This is the first time I Stephen matching it has not worked with Ricky device in terms of writings that. Correct. Maybe so. Yeah. And and this is first time on his arm, and I have left. It's really charming afford, the family dynamics in this film. So good. It takes of jarring to begin with the first half hour 'cause it's seeing really famous people living really normal lives in suffer. They're really reach. So suffocate accents. And I really really enjoyed it. I thought it was something reach the rock. I think is an absolute amazing guy. But he's name shouldn't be on the poster it. He's Bailey in the film. That's true. I think that was just a cynical attempt to sell it, which I kind of you know, a lotta films. So, you know, fairplay to them it's it's a tough sale. Otherwise, I think trying to convince people to go see this the British family wrestling, you know, there's a lot of. Words there that might turn people off. It does whole wrestling premises media interest in jokes union, we had some might sue re. I mean, I. Plights podcast wrestled wrestling base. Like a religion something, really? And for the family. That's the people in real life. That's how they found solace and found a way to move on their lives. I I had a bad time, and they managed foreign away used to live a move on surfing. So I generally lavas film already charming. There's a rookie montage say in this which is kind of changing actually, Vince Vaughn is an his film, and I think he does so much emotional lifting and he gets the credit. He deserves this are really enjoyed that part of it company side, much more. Now, just really enjoyed his film of one the things that I think didn't play on too much was that you don't realize that. Yes. A case fixed of this fix the winners predetermines, but the achievement of at that age going to a foreign country way. You didn't know anyone and coming the pinnacle in that sport is such an achievement. And that is what the premise of the story is no agree. And I think what's what's really good. Well, as it has the wit to balance that sort of success story because we've seen the underdog succeeding story before it balances that with the kind of crisis that her brother has forgotten his name already Zach Jack Liden. And you know, he he is always expected to be the wrestling star in the family. He always thought he was going to be the one to kind of breakthrough. If anybody did until the his little sister often leaves him behind just completely devastated. Understandably. An and it takes him, you know, a long time to try and figure out what what to do at that point. And I really liked that story. I also must have face blindness because every time Jack Loudon turns up in a film. I'm like, oh that guy's really good. He looks like that one guy, you know, the actor literally don't put it together for at least twenty minutes and sure enough same in this case, I didn't know it was him. He just disappears into every role does transform these bodies. Yeah. Film as well. And like fully the stunts the fact that I- proper went in. I went properties they try and become wrestlers and cows. And I went and filmed an event appropriate w even and I got the rock cats to get the crowd up and going and stuff, and like the the authenticity of that kinda went into a bit of a rabbit hole about page off towards because to actually find out that is person. Unfortunately, she's had to retire because an injury has even like I twenty five retired from professional school. And and I hope that this kind of in spies more there's tons of stories of especially in women's wrestling of people have had to overcome such adversity to not be just saying as a prefix onstage to actually be at Butte as skilled in net craft and spas more stories to come out from this because pages just one of loads of women that have managed to actually get respect. I deserve. Stuff. Jonah you're doing your purpose series Feis there. Yeah. Yeah. Hey is this but many good film coming out? Just think involved now, but what for more of her from you guys think quite like is an issue come up again to run is that from the trade. It makes rock is a big part of, you know, you tease into the story from what it sounds like from what you guys are the traitor is just that a trade traitor that t's you into the story Volver them gives away the massive potholes is commonly we've given away a lot of plot actually discussion. Genuinely is the kind of film that that doesn't really matter knowing the doesn't really matter. It is it is about the experience is about the people in the characters and just getting to know them. And so yes film as well, which can engage people different ages and different groups. It sounds like this is a film. It can that. Anyone can go watch it. Yeah. Definitely. So yeah, we do scoring one the five I wanna where we go from. And for me sits around free. That's for us. We think that that's a great a great film. We really do. Enjoy the comments of it if you'll put off by this arresting element daren't be because it's just a great family comedy families describing I talked about Boehner's loan it. But it's a great comedy. And it's got arrested angle to free five family page. I myself have come from a wrestling family to know, exactly what it means to worry about being the next week. The first you. News. You may have little film could avengers endgame dropped second trailer or the second China's the TV as well. But yeah, that drops a couple of days, and the Disney tweet something kinda funny offing Phil might be a big deal. Yeah. You think Helen I now you've just on a massive put about this on a scale of one to score you how exciting. Well, I Jimmy love about his trade is and there's a story in which often absolutely fascinating every heard of gentleman Barry Curtis now. So he is the security manager for marvel he has been working with marvel since ironman free. So they realized that they'll get during the course of ironman preparing to an avengers loads of stuff was leaking. So they hired this guy to basically being charge of. Here's the guy who would brief actors decide what you can. And can't say, and he'll always be around. He's basically happy HOGAN. Yeah. If he was a real person of just being around sentence stuff and offers he might be quite pissed. This trailer is unwise because about a year ago, toy companies away thaw leaking images of stuff, they're always wants to go. They always are at Legos. Well, they're already about this leaked pitches of those what on outfits and and Twitter to start responded with Barry's going to be pissed because he was the guy. Remember when a full ragnarok came out and Mark Ruffalo accidentally tweeted. It's a live streaming the first bit from that. Hey has been Simpson's home. Holland people. I told you are not allowed to be in public without Barry consoling, I and just before Vinnie will came out. There was a press conference between and roughly Nagoya plays will machine and is squatting infamous interview because mom, roughly says, yeah, everyone dies and the guy looked not funny. Why you doing so away? Am knocks. First response was on Barry's going to kill me. And I think Barry must be really upset to see that the leaked images from the the outfits now in that try to what do we think like on the sky squeak where you? Yeah. L excited about it. But there's also a spoiler isn't the. Yes, the trader. It's a sport. It's let's say it's a piece of information about the film that we did not previously have a feel like if they're allowing in the trailer by definition, it's no spoiler. Because as you say these guys are so so sneaky, I mean, we've also forget hads pictures in previous trailers that did no end up in the movie, we've had pictures and previous trailers that were completely and deliberately misleading. So, you know, our Germany believed the post credit stinger in captain marvel is not in endgame, raise more believe that is just because they conned of already seen a couple of times. And and maybe a couple of times on social media for people coming, but they don't look like how do you have tried is Chris Evans still has the beard still has the big glorious burglars bid? But look quite rile gone. Hey, we need someone to fill missing quickly. And can you move away from you ever project just that they'll have on this? Well, it was directed by the. Brothers would dictate that it was done during some three shoots, which we know they have shed Sheldon in for movies these days. So it may not be the exact scene because we've seen them do that before as well. So like for the winter soldier when he recognizes Bucky in the street they actually had three or four versions of that same with varying levels of emotion on these different one in the film to the one in the trailer. Wow. For example. Yeah. Then in the scene. The after credits are the mid credit scene with Buckley's arm in the vice is a slightly different version again to what you see in the film. So they they will sometimes just give enough of a Jewish. So you're still seeing something slightly fresh. Wow. It's going to be free hours long. Mariah thing. I mean, I'm there for the day if they won't be. Yeah. I mean. Jettison the stays justifying Finney would Loza cinemas doing marathon runs, and it would be like avengers age of ultra on. And then maybe some of the key moment films. I may be civil war rack neural might be Black Panther just beforehand Akon. I'm seeing anything any someone who owns a cinema. Just look at this and put something because that will make so much money. You could survive do wonder how funky it would be off tonight. Fully now is in the. Yeah. You don't want to twenty two film marathon anti-big. Well, yeah. Because some of my colleagues did a boned marathon once when there were wrong twenty two bones, and they basically just killed them like to see above village. Coming to work. The second day in middle of the second day that they hit the Roger Moore era. And that's that's not good, man. You've been up all night. You haven't had any sleep Sundays Roger Murph like ours office. Anyway, speaking on the marvel trial, captain marvel a lot of people said not too. Well, turns out what day night because it might four hundred and fifty five million dollars globally in its opening weekend. That's a license to print money. I hope it has legs in terms of keeps going on and on. I think it will make a truckload of money just before and game comes out. But I don't know why anyone was any surpri-. And I'm not asked the same question. Had you probably also, but is fatigue gave we're gonna come in these films will bad. Genuinely that is that is the answer. And that's what you know. Everyone sort of you know, I've been known to argue online with people about on or about one v superman and stuff, and you know, the reason that critics are, you know, alleged to be, you know, kinder to the MC you than they are the DC films their films. They're more entertaining films on average, you know, there DC ones, I really enjoyed let wonder woman Akron, but they're just doing really, well, they're they're mixing up the formula changing out. What works they're not afraid to take risks. They're bringing in people like taika YTD, which makes sense. You know, it works brilliantly works far better than would have done. If they brought in a sort of journeyman director who was pretty okay and fight their biggest flops have been kinda journeyman directors who were pretty reliable. Those are the guys who've right to things like the dark world and our arm onto Jon Favreau, VC has talent. But like he was kind of constrained in that when they were trying to do. A lot with film and his hands were tied in there for it. Wasn't a good film. They've learned that they need to give people rooms maneuver, they need to give people room to bring something to it. What works agree if that, oh, I think that is about timing of what are naturally tree getting wrong. Kuker at a time they did to Mike Sasha transcendent film, light Black Panther like just about I say having the booze to be able to say, yeah, I will go hundred million dollar movie or wherever the budget. So and what will be will be? This is your we're gonna let the creates his crates. And it's a case of the focal point is a is a superhero movie is damn good movie. I just have a lens of there's a superhero foods magazine recognized suppose one billion dollars in its worldwide box office that would make sense because it's usually about a two point five to three times multiplier of the opening weekend. So an ising you look at crewman how well that Donald side billion or just just before Christmas even well. Well, she's inciting and yet long might continue. Anyway, let's talk about another trailer. And I on this podcast head on this time. But I may have slated act. A word Aladdin for a couple of reasons. One Will Smith holes and sold onto often garbage. He's great and making garbage you movies. Maybe not the Disney movies. But it'd be honest New Tribes drp. Oh, eat my words. She quite enjoyed it. Increase some of the tracks now as well a whole new world. And I think people are starting to make that connection aunt may with the film that they know of for Latin whereas before it was just there. You lighten. In my show genie. That's what we want. That's true. That's true. That's true. That's true. And these blue. Yeah. And bits of it. Yeah. I wanna hear because I'm coming gentleman's name to go. He does. He's amazing voice actor he's doing voice to be all the power onto the yes him everyone. Here is yoga freshen come. I call it hope is that cave of wonders. Thing away site says, hey. Yeah. I need to hear this. But I'm actually reading streak now. And I think whoever's doing the marketing Disney for this movie is kind of dropped the ball in terms of they had so much bad will building up towards this film when they had a goodwill in Will Smith to bail to show eight to to show what they've got available, and yeah, hopefully this drama bit more interesting. Hopefully, it shows sign of a good film and another try it drops going film coming couple coming out. She over the summer one of them with cherise for on about being the president's kitchen long shot that was it. But also, he's directing another film, which is cool. Good boys. It's kind of like a coming of age comedy. Come Niger, come defer, people of twenty nine, and this is really charming. I BIC spicy him in front of the cost of boys. Basically saying look, this is very fucking film. But you can't see trade up because you're too young to be an and self like just that would have been enough to kinda get me excited. But Jimmy looks funny. Yeah, he is. Is no rating movie in America about boys being to make out party, isn't it? Yeah. Hadn't been noticing it. Now the case, and they're trying to find out how you kiss ago and night bar that drone Paul of it, and they fly over then he was fence to catch, you know, go next door. So like trying to kiss her boyfriend oversee the droning crashes, and they try place to join and he's right comical world. Yeah. Joins me twenty years ago. Younger boys. They're they're like eleven twelve not the usual sort of seventeen teen age that cusp of experiencing those stuff. That's a good word for we're in our twenties that point Jamie us, no live. But it looks awesome. Just the wrap-up news game. Lou. We might be a bit nerdy guy this level of talent. But we are really excited. We're gonna be doing a game afraid special at some point before the the new episodes drop, and I'm still we still need that big map of where all the chess pieces are available tend to find gamma throwing says conduct. You could have like a flow chart of the first three or four episodes going. Who's that who's? Oh, yeah. Like then. And then they die. And then you saw and then you start hope process again in white to us. But that being said they've released the running time HD episodes now H one of them. But I mean, this is like a film coming out every week. Now, isn't it? I mean, how incredible is this? And can we come actually heading who's going to sit in the front end? Oh boy. I generally don't generally have. No, I've no clue and I'm quite enjoying not having a clue I'm really happy about that. I mean, there's obviously the sort of the story that we seem to be heading towards Jones. Chris Evans, the golden retriever. There's obviously this done and Joan obvious happy ending. But when his game of thrones ever done, the obvious happy ending. It is. So I I just don't I genuinely don't know. And I don't even want to speculate. I'm sorry. I just I'm quite enjoying the complete bananas -ness of it. Because I read the books, you know, so for the first four seasons. I was like I got this. And now, I'm kind of. Yeah. Good. Tyrian cool. He's just going to be in the background the whole time the mastermind put industries and embalm is gonna kill everyone and take a hug, so because I love the man I love him. But I feel like he's the one who's going to make the nickel self sacrifice to save. I think he will. I think he upsets me. Right. Jamie Landes, the two he started hated him. Somehow he gets on your skin. Even you know, you're a good guy. And I could watch the entire spin off of just him hanging out guys. Name the guy who's Braun. Yes. How did you? Gift. We are. Yeah. I hope off of that. But my fear is that they're going to get rid of the fraud. And it'll be a democracy and behind. Brazen. This genuine question. Those those swords that were melted down are there are they Valerian steel or does dragon fire turn steel into and steal? Because if so they might need the threat might need to melt it down symbolic thing. World to to survive the new I don't know. Wow. My mind. On these tweet. In a previous job. I worked at a white mentioned. And I'm believing. From that. I had the frog in the in the central office, and I will do now it'll bring out and I had the Kate replacing the they put like a padded seat in it had to keep replacing it because people just spending day sitting in a comfy code. You're sitting on. I'm gonna teach. Oh, I would love to have one of those mile because him as that's right. I'm sitting on the on thrown. What about a kid? Behavior. So it I mean if there will to have seen it because if then. And then you get in trouble. 'cause like, I do you know, you go more watching over that. They see me sitting on the throne or skulls and swords. Yeah. Yeah. I'm indicate cooled net. Anyway, that's the news for this week. That's right. That is right out of my way. Neat recruiters description. Face like, cats Martinez, lying around. Caja scence nNcholas cage, an amazing actor has a credit spans. I've ninety eight movie some of them, genuine kasichs. Some of them nNcholas cage movies. I've got a bunch of synopsis here, always plural. Synopsis Synopsys anyway, a bunch of synopses and some of them genuine, Chris cage movies. Some of them are complete nonsense and the guy in here is that basically guests have to guess where it's cage nonsense. There will be a tiebreaker at the end, Jamie. We'll start you off. In writing champion. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You did actually win. Okay. You ready? Charles Teverson is an ex junkie marine on the path to redemption off the use of rebate rehabilitations might. Yeah. So you need to this one. Oh, that's how you should contacted by former colleague to protect a high profile client, the president of the United States daughter after an attack concert Kelly is presumed dead. Charles is left to take the full Charles must defend Kelly clear. He's name and unearth conspiracy Chinese. Chinese plausible? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Too much of a clean any. Well. The main problem is he's already defended a member of the presidential family. You're in trouble with I. Yeah. When a childless couple of an ex-con and another ex-cop decide to rob a family of quintuplets their lives, become more complicated than anticipated. That is raising. I resign by the Coen brothers. That is correct. A group of strangers come to the eight of a single mother seeking pre bring rapists to Justice. Yeah. That's not just. Think cage that cage. Correct. Vengeance. Colon. Love story. That one has escaped me. I did not. Helen. Yeah. Scotland's twelve Ninety-six a small clan of Scottish rebels have been pinned down to stronghold in the mountains to vite English forces. However, a werewolf attacks them and bites the Scottish leader. James Douglas, scheduled joins us now fold hold off the English east whilst keeping his blood lusting check, but became a full moon is on your nights away. Oh my God. I mean, it's I think it's nonsense. But it really does something he'd do. So I'm not sure I'm gonna have to push you since you're correct. You should do this professionally. Yeah. You should you should write nNcholas catering. Okay. Jiving question. Free managed chemists. An ex-con must lead the counterstrike operation against a rogue group of terrorists, which let who are led by renegade. General. The fr is nerve gas attack from Alcatraz. Oh, I have seen this cage filled is the rook. Yes are ten. So from Conroy reasoning. How do you? Where we by phone. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. So Helen love loan scream writes, it becomes desperate. When he tries and files and attempts adopting the orchard faith. That's tation is nNcholas cage movie correct on its own. Oh, I've seen that. Johny an Alaskan state trooper partners with a young woman who escaped the clutches of a serial killer to bring a murderer to Justice based on actual events. Sounds film. Let's say nonsense. It's genuine cage frozen ground frozen. Grind. What what an indelible titled? Never forget. In the next five minutes heaven setting the year twenty nine a ruthless dictators had across his conscience. And decides the world would be a lot better off if he never decided to kill his general Fava and caused a military coup. General funds Francis Hulton travels back in time to convince himself to rethink if he's decisions failing that he must kill himself. Think that's nonsense. Amona say, no. Nice. Was that ship jobs Smith, but he's he's played stunned lip kisses on what was it Stanley, sunny up kazoo? Is the Moscow Stanley in the rock that was anyway, Goodspeed Goodspeed Stanley good space. There is actually a website dedicates. It's just names of characters played by Crisci. All right, gene. Rightly question five, a small group is survivors are left behind after millions of people suddenly vanish and the world is pledged into chaos and destruction on that the world's. The end of the world, isn't it? The best case scenario. I feel fine is a film, but ks. Norville nonsense its cage that's left behind isn't it? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm very. That film we've frozen in the world. Yeah. And I mean, and that's the end or something. Yeah. This is the end this is the end Helen you've already one, but plying. Plying climate. Absolutely seven boo, Jamie. Okay. In order to foil, an exploitation an FBI agent. Undergoes facial transplant surgery. I think very already face off. But we do have a tie breaker question, which I'm going to war, Jamie, five points of oh. Oh. Now is this just whoever shouts it. I wins. We'll we'll go to say Cajun. Now, let me right. Right. Okay. Reading the question. I get it. Okay. So I want you thinking tone. Yeah. I think it's on. But I'll I'll question I allow fairness k- how many times nNcholas cage played a character called John. Eight twelve guy would Johnny me because he actually was closest his played six times. Actually, generally wouldn't even had including. Yes. By John six times before it was Jack and Joe with free. He's been a doctor free times. So Jamie by by crooked, blah hurt. You know, you'll see. The IT like a Rene sense of movies is touched pop culture is something we always come back to we always moan about a remake because chances are remake of an eighties movie. Helen is fair to say, you know, a bit about Asian books, which I have display here because in the medium of podcast displaying, see make sense, but later on Twitter account, we will be giving out some of these books. I've hopefully may be a little signature from yourself as well. But since we've got a legitimate expert an eighties movies. I want to ask the question of what is the most eighties eighties movie was fashioned nation with this decade. And why do we always look back in this in such a rose tinted glasses? So I was the first question asks hadn't why what makes our fascination last as long as it has done these movies. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? 'cause it's even people who weren't around for any of the eighties. You know, still have this vast nation with a lot of it. So I think there's a there's a bunch of different reasons. I. The eighties is where they started to or maybe restarted after the sort of expect more experimental sixties and seventies they restarted trying actively to make big movies. You know, feel like in the seventies. There was at least a moment. Wer- Hollywood was just so discombobulated and didn't really know what worked anymore, and so they were willing to experimental arty kind of things and some of course, worked brilliantly in an launched many of the directors that then went on to make these eighties movies, but but by the eighties. They were much more focused again with how can we make something look, cool, look awesome. And it was part of the kind of spirit of the times. You know, the whole me generation the access the kind of color, the loud music, all of that kind of feeds into it as well. But I do think it was part of that seismic shift. You know, when you had obviously Spielberg with Joel's genuinely that's a huge part of the star of the eighties because they suddenly realized oh my goodness. People will leave their team. V and q around the block literally around the block to see this movie movies matter and when you follow that with Star Wars. Yeah. I mean that was game over, and obviously, you know, other big hits superman and stuff like that in the seventies. As well. But then that was everybody was aiming for it was not that suddenly people realize that even though there were TV's even though that was a thing people would still go to the movies in droves. If you gave them a reason to do it. And it's kind of the aero we've been living in ever since. Which is probably why refunded with it. But I would say in terms of like, you mentioned remakes and things like that the problem with that is are the generation now in charge of studios and stuff is the generation on eighty movies. Yeah. And so this is their touchstones. And these are the ones that they want to recreate also think technologies played a huge, Paul one of my favorite books is creativity ink the Pixar story, and you learn a lot about picks up. She learned about movies in general. And how those guys I ever industrial imagine when they were working over in Lucasfilm and things that influence things. And yes, okay. The fruits of their labor was probably felt more in the nineties the stuff they worked on the ice who's very much part time, and very experiment. So it's no industrial imagine where might be a denial facts, but look films like Tron waved. First time experiment, computer graphics on screen and also just like you say this expansion of using this technology, and it was relatively affordable. She's been all of a sudden other studios could experiment and try new things out. And yes it bled into sign. Much of a creative. Endeavors and music is a key that as well music went through Canada hall renaissance on self that's on I'll say, do you think the these films would have been as successful powerful soundtracks? When you think of these films? You do often rocky. Often rocky Connick. Hill. Jay, the montage scene in that house on fire amazing. It's just that that for me as whenever watch it whenever I work out, the two three workout. That is the montage guy through my head rookie, I'm running and I'm running for ten seconds. I'm Brocchi that montage. She just sticks with you. And I think it'll be interested in your opinion and cheating that that means you had a part to play. Did he would have been as acceptable about that? So powerful, I think for some for some movies one hundred percent or something like like Flashdance was basically sold on the track. I mean, even the goonies, you know, I don't think I don't think the music matters to the film in the same way that something like rocky in the music matters within the film when you're watching the film, but the Cyndi Lauper goonies video in advance didn't hurt people in terms of getting them to the cinema to try the film. So there is the the two different kinds of there's the ones where the music is such a huge part of the movie and the ones where the the the song which had nothing to do with the movie just sold sold bums on seats. Because again, you've of course, the whole MTV generation you've got the the video playing on a loop with the clips from the movie, really awesome. And your light right around see that. Yeah. I smashed was lessons kill him. So. Yeah. Con at a brain license to kill was was that Gladys Knight. Oh, the other one. Oh. So I had a win him. Just then. Right. Sorry interested this quickfire round. Right. Right. She headed this is the second time of an Caja Johnson style. I've asked you a question face to face you'll live empire last year. So. So. Pass up to me. And I I find it hard enough during this stuff just in front of friends and good come that. You guys do it in front hundreds of people. My question was going to be as paid for trying to do put Cass and reach audiences and oldest great stuff. What sort of advice, would you give to them? And then I had an awkward moment where the might find past dropped and everyone looked Muslim before. When to use which you said Joe said apart from Terry who said star is blowing sweat done that decide I get the bills for you see things I just because she's the editor in chief. So anyway, she's she's absolutely incredible quickfire round, I'm based on classic tropes of i-it's movies. Okay. So best cop GIO. Best to I mean Turner. One. Absolutely classic. Great on for me is is because quite well. John's which to you I best soundtrack voting for. Brookville working for have you seen cre- to yet? No, it's kind of like a spiritual successor mix, but the soundtracks actually, really good. I do. Condos five after rookie five Bilbao about called me back here. But I'll have to wash doubt rocky for it for me transformers nine thousand nine hundred six. Yeah. We played that university forty hours. We did. She just never too much of that. Yeah. Just that. Maybe it's just had mentioned you kind of grew up watching this stuff. Right. But those scenes well, MS prime dies, and he goes do not grieve. And I'm like. I would say anyone who watches that without shedding tears, not human wrong. Best soundtrack. I'm going to have to go dancing the risk of being a cliche girl because because actually if you get the secondary dancing CD, the first one like all the ones that pretty knows there. Okay. The second one has more Otis Redding on here. Help them. But no, I it's weird. Because I actually I was doing sort of best musical moments in the book and LA Mer fifties tunes and sixties choose because it's obviously that generation of filmmakers grownup. But I quite like that stuff. Anyway, like, I don't love Elettronica and the sue some of the movies leave it cold that way. And also Highlander the Queen Amtrak for Highland. Yeah. Credit? Yes. To say flash. Gordon? I don't know. We'll use. It was. By eighty one or so. Okay co. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's genius. I'm really good. I didn't touch on that in behavior wraps today. But I'm sure that a conversation for another time. But so there's many many amazing directors. I applaud their crossed over the IT's, and it's really hard to just night it down to two one or two people, especially Chris they probably went on to go to. But I'm going to ask you tonight hunter to two directors all kicking off inside if I had to pick like two amazing director that time Robert some Acuras Baxter future for me is just finished the perfect trilogies. Flawless. Yeah. Even the deferred films. No good. But still it's like you never going to touch that. I'm glad that the whole the whole world is a collective of gone. Every time there's a rumor of a Ray Michael for we now know needed. Thank you. Great scott. And John carpenter some amazing films that guy's done, and I think of Skype from New York, Germany dot com. I want them to remake it. But I want them to d. Russell thank you into it. Because I he looks absolutely stunning in God's guys volume. So he can clearly off still. But there's no one else that can base nights. Listen now, there's only one. Yeah, you're right. So mighty would have to be. This was something. I thought about a lot for the book because I was trying to balance it and not use the same people all the time. Even though I have my favorites. But Spielberg is just number one all time. So spielberg. You know Indy. This this decade so pass for life for that. And the other one that came up way more than I expected because he's not a name in the same way that those three are is rob Reiner. Like, he's not, you know, people don't really think about rob Reiner is one of the great directors, but like in the eighties. He made spinal tap. He made the Princess bride. He made when Harry met Sally any made stunned by me. So, wow, you know, he gets it. Just for the Princess bride any one of those will be passed for life. So John has to as well like there's so many like home runs in that period of time for maybe it was just the it was the right ingredients of coach availability of technology and and actors right good as the paper that to writing about big how big so good driving REVEAL OUR good Spielberg as well. I think there's a couple of conic films in that decade. Isn't that what you just can't escape everyone ET gills everyone knows films and because I'm a fan boy. Amand lucas. Yeah. I got him out. But he lived long enough to himself become the villain. He directed. The two Star Wars films in the eighties. Oh, junk appointed more just produced. Yeah. Hugely involved in every basic sage anymore. Night. I guarantee on wrong. Okay. So let's talk about some character stuff. Right. So the IT had some icon ick villains and cocaine. It was a loss cocaine about these vans. For me. I'm gonna have to go with with Adam Rickman is my favorite all time eighteen villain. There is a subcategory which deserves a subcategory in this questioning favorite Russian venom. 'cause I say, it's the a thing of always has be a Russian villain, but Jamie fire villain. Ooh. That is a question. I was not anticipate sorry Joe governor Bill filter going to say the shark from jaws. Seventies house assembly. Yep. Late thirty five own even license. Got on dice. Okay. I will come to you. Four in the morning. You're gonna wake up. Provoke bowl. That one. No. Russian is Ivan. The bad going Rambo first blood. He was it was rushing. Let's see. No. That was the cops. Town town, basically, destroyed them wrong hadn't favor villain, and I keep I keep coming back to can in Star Trek. Actually, it's probably the right answer is probably either the Queen or the Terminator. Oh, wow. Them could be good heroes as well. Just on dairy left at her people. It's all about now. I feel bad stereotyping just just like the scrolls in in captain marvel. We've been led to believe that turns out there just trying to find a home themselves. Spoiler spice, right. Paperless. Anyway, sorry that was printing genres in the IT about horror Technics again that went for its iron. Keep using the word because it feels like that's the way it did. And for me eighties horror. I think evil dead. The fact that it was so good that you went and remade in the same decade with pretty much the same cast anyway candle at least, and yeah, it's it's a hallmark, which is still people discovering it nowadays might feel old when you hot discovers film with Scott who Bruce Campbell in who even heard of it. It's like when you heard kids talking about discovering friends on Netflix for the first time and. And what's your have? You got fiber. I also am a big evil dead fan. I was just thinking one which is gone completely automated. Oh, rewatch should nightmare on elm street for the book. And I've forgotten just how horrifically nasty that is like it super nasty. And so that has to go in Johnny Depp, getting sucked into his own bed. And then like just a massive fountain of blood. Join debt was in in a cut off t shirt to die in a cutoff t shirt, while the indignity. Oh my God. So yeah, that was that was unpleasant. And I would argue the first Terminator movie is actually a horror because it's just so I know it's a sci-fi. But so intense, you know, John now, you're horrid go I'm gonna go for my child. I should say influence writer, Jorge Romero. Classic is. We look at our whole genre zombie movies spawned over marrow. He he was a genius when he came to somebody movies aren't do good movie as well, as you know, the classics loses in this, right? Also, another eighteen tripe spoke movie, and to be honest, I high spoofs apart from eighty spoof movies. I maybe maybe when Xenos and died that drama Dodd with him. Think about your airplanes movies like that. And Nevoso atropine is in that kind of in that bubbles icon of him one. Have you got a favorite sport movie? But also body switching movies like that tends to be. Okay. He's right. And I mentioned earlier big again, not for me as one of the one the best out there when people say body, switch movies where the what is your mind guy? Big hundred percent. It's and you forget how twisted it actually is. It's really she sleeps with a case she's going to be so messed up never mind him. Also being messed up. It's very weird. Yeah. But yet, it's they're so charming that you believe it for minute. And you don't realize where it is until. So if you wake up the next morning after watching and go, wait a second. Suppose more with like she ran off she slept Charles. But then says give me a call when you're older. Yeah. That's that's the bit that they should not have. So I've seen us. I was you know, probably twelve that maybe was. I didn't see the problem now. Really right now. But I didn't get to see that one comes not. She should be registered speaking. Speaking on those lines, and what movies if they were released today, not not change just how now what would not hold up in the world. This was what I was. I was compiling these best movies of the for this book and up until I could fit in fifty. And I kinda cheated by putting in a further viewing suggestion on one. Just like get some more in lock Spotify eighties. I was trying. It was you know, my my my brief I guess was like the big movies, not necessarily all the kind of ones. I might have gone for. Yeah. Left entirely my own devices. But. So I was trying to get a Representative spread and those trying to narrow it down to fifty and it was and it was incredibly so. Yeah. So one of the things I thought it include was excuse me was the kind of eighty sex comedies. So four keys was the one that up. I thought porkies being. Being there because it may not be may not be right now. But I mean, it's something hopefully of the decade, and I watched it again, and it is so relentlessly all fulled, I just couldn't bring myself to put it in the book, even though is probably more Representative of of a type of movie than films. I ended up. I just couldn't. I hated it so hard so. Yeah. Get since I was teenager. I remember that show. Remembers cassette like a fake books or rap sheets for VHS. I remember that when of those on the shelves, they would books, but VHS is one of them have pork is on it. And I remember saying, you know, he's. Reported like it. On the film's thing would hold up. Now is crooked out on day that oh pretty much wash it. Now, it's pretty much high-crime. I mean, I did I did put that in because I thought I should have another look at it. And the only thing I can say in its defense. And there's a lot of stuff in there. That's really don't. You know, I I know I know there's a lot of things in really dodgy most of them the Australian stuff he's talking about the relationships between whites number journal in Australia. That it was like, whoa. Okay. But, but like, for example, when he meets a trans person woman. He's very much the butt of the joke. Not her. So I that's the only thing I'd say it's defense. And the only reason that it might just by. I'm not saying hold up, but it might just get a pass from some people. Now figure social media meltdown. But but now, you haven't you Simon and spooks can I say? Because top secret top secret is not as well known. I think the first airplane was seventy nine which otherwise it would been in there. I think but top secret is one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life. It's Val Kilmer Elvis style star going to communist communist, east, Germany, which is some her also kind of Nazi east, Germany. It's very confused and and trying to rescue a scientist who's been imprisoned by the bad guys. It's so good is so funny that's on people people kind of missed it. And they don't know as well as airplane, but top secret is superb. Fortunately, my first ball did go to spy heart. When he spoofs spun shorts hot shows I love, but that's ninety. I tell you one poll up Tom today with science not very eighties. You try to remain that now people want Nikon. I just crash. Thought it before. Well on that he signed much guys. And if you've got all these movies, which ran spike about gained contact us on Twitter at took film to me. Hyphen PayPal coming up on the next segment. It's me Jaime reviewing triple frontier on Netflix where originally intended to do this industry with Helen. But fortunately, we run over. So we had to cut short. We Don the over Scott. I have cleaned up the audio. Hopefully, it sounds good the way enjoy. Streaming gems here wants to walk away and do so knowing the best of this got to be now. There is no ground support. Staying more walking out with Jamie in the we are too much of a good thing. We went over. So we decided to catch up on Skype to go for your review of triple frontier. Netflix original came out on Friday and not triple point as I kept saying to people over the weekend tweeting about Johnny. What is this film about? Okay. Yes. Triple team is gonna be a classic story behind in the good guys who that lives in the right way. And some they are, you know, face Qatar level making some money but much legally possible great cost to as well, we go Oscar is Charlie Charlie Hunnam. Echo acts like Petra Pasco Garrett Hedlund. The at our tuna stream out actress, she's she has pardon comes into now. But the guy's starts. I'll be guys Oscar consultant to the Mexican police Charlie hundred super supports coach United people's they come out the army, don't go into the private sector to state of the army. Ben Affleck is the state agent. Patriots. Cow is license suspended for cookies at any at Garrett. Hedlund. Doozy amateur fighter. Amazing. You can imagine the the guys. Hey, Patricia narcos TV show. That's all I'm sitting there going. We need a drug guy for this week in our petro pass cow refine. Yeah. And these guys are United writing names higher lives. And that now struggling in that they can't make ends meet. And then something that is author of taking down this big time drug cartel boss in the jungle and get away money as well. And I guess the story of how they got about doing that too much way and then escape from that with the money, and as you guess as probably really predictable the state doesn't plan. Rice I ever is story. If my understandings right, essentially, a bunch of ex-soldiers soldiers of fortune have your undescribed they're living in civvy weld and an opportunity come up to bicycle rob a drug cartel. Okay. To these joined the cast. It looks incredible cost wise, great, the quality was superb scenery. And when Phil filming his as well. There wasn't a lot wrong with the filmar already drill for knifings original movie. It was by on the right cost the voice of budget. Again. They have really good film. Tell me about that car. So these films that she'd been around for a while it's been doing around the nearly ten years, actually, Johnny Depp was originally links to this film the pulled out for other projects and stuff. But as you said, this cost is opinion Easter of paper of describe this is listed with a couple of listers. Try and make him like a listers. I disagree with that completely. I think Charlie Hannon's awesome. Love him Vanna K and an hour. Endeavors. We'll see this. Yeah. He's a really say cowards. Besmirched the is fantastic actor, but he eastern plays. So in that strong guy who do was necessary. But the same time has a most are to moral compass as trying to follow, and that's that's not spent in the films while these guys are, you know, a guys of owner having been in the all made. And there is a of the internal struggle going on throughout the film as struggling to before. In all major part the plot base over subplot running along the whole time. But yeah to Charlie was pretty Nashville me. He ended so central character. I do need to be. No fair enough. All right. I'm buddy. Well, sounds like it's one those action films. Netflix originals way we tend to be a bit glass half empty most of 'em because. Yes for every Audra that's out there. Unfortunately, there is a mute and where does this. The incidence of Netflix originals. Probably have some bad ones. Really? As far as the the first Ferrari into action, if you don't in cal- count Will Smith film now, bright, bright, John. Kuala swell. I always said he's sitting about four five four five deputy worth watch. Nice side there you have it. Four out of five triple frontier. Available on your Netflix account right now. But I ended up for. We're gonna come to you. So we've gone through. Thank you can listen to this podcast. If you've enjoyed listening to this as much as we've enjoyed police can follow subscribe Weber is you get more content from films. Helen, I've got to be honest with you I felt and taking my driving tests with. Oh in front of Chris Evans, you're doing it. But there's probably something much better than need very close by and papery narrates. How can I get in contact view? How can I fall on Twitter? Helen L O'Hara animal the empire podcast every week public as well. We do I don't know if you guys do there. So this might be thing I'm recommending without you know, taking away from people listening to you because we do the spoiler podcast for the big movies. Where we go into just kills levels of detail mostly about captain America's beard, but we have fun doing so. Yeah, come along. Enjoy if you can chime in. America. He just credit. Really? Jamie Hawaii's on the cultural post. On and how the people you're at Mr. Mr. Spicer, hold on earn Spurs next week. We're going to be reviewing pet cemetery we owed site being hopefully, depending on guys be reviewing us as well side. Stifle me to next time. Talk. Fill me to me.

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Molinism

Apologetics Live

2:08:32 hr | 1 year ago

Molinism

"Was Andrew the one that helps you get the podcast backup. Yeah. He did get podcast. You didn't help. Did. It. Don't don't you think yo dinner for that? No, he didn't. Godley? Before clark. Oh christian. All right. We are live apologetic law, and we're glad that you are here with us. We are going to be having another show, but we are going to be minus someone. That's right. I kicked Matt off today. No Matt needed a break. Some of you may or may not know Matt slick has been preparing to move. He's going to be moving to Arizona that move is in the works, which means he has been packing up his house like crazy and in that process. Well, that takes a lot of packing, and that's what he's doing. The house is probably a mess right now as he's packing everything up. He's trying to get everything out. And in that, we're also realizing that if you haven't heard or don't know mad has basically his wife has not been doing very, well, she's had several surgeries this month alone on her. Back. The don't know if they actually well, they think they fix some of the problems that they were looking to fix the problem was they didn't actually relieve all the pain. So she's still in pain, but she's doing better, which is good. I will say that tonight. We may have a couple friends come in. They may drop in and we may have a good discussion on the topic of Mullen ISM. So we can look forward to that possibly. If you want to ask any questions want to join in. You can go to apologetic live dot com. There's a link to join there if you wanna participate just go there joined in and what I wanted to do until some folks come in is to address an issue. I didn't even introduced myself. Did I well? Okay. So I'm Andrew Rappaport. The basically the I worked for striving for trinity ministry, and I am the host of Andrew rap reports wrap. Report podcast. If you have not downloaded that yet and subscribed. What in the world is wrong with you? So she's me. What I did do recently was dealing with some issues both on Facebook live on the issue of James chapter two. And I also was dressing some other issues on the phrase that we see about pastors being qualified for ministry when it says he must be a husband wife, and what does that mean? I was going through those things we got a lot of Welsh are we say grief on that. And so I was going to go over some of that. Well, what I want to do is start off until we get some other folks in I wanted to go over James chapter two. And when we look at James chapter two, there is an important thing that we see here, and I'm going to add let's see I'm gonna have my buddy ally. Here. He's already in here. So I'm going to add him into the show in case. He wants to say, hi, he's pride. Just figuring out how Google hangouts works. We got him trying to get used to it last time. If folks who may know if you are regular listeners couple of weeks ago, I had to take a couple of weeks off, and I had my friend Eli here fill in. And so welcome Eli. Hello. Ami? Okay. I can see Eli likes to show off his degrees. There look. Well, it's either that or this random basketball hoop? So that was really dude the random basketball hoop with the kids having clearly those are the kids like, magnets, whatever up there. That's way. My wife. So I'm just getting. See mine is like if you look to be right there. You can't you could barely see because my chair and my big head covers it. All right. So I wanna go through until maybe if Eric comes in. But until he does and wanted to go through James chapter two and look at this and alive you want to jump in feel free. We could have a good discussion on this a lot of people take this verse. And by the way, this is not just Roman Catholics. But for those of you who profess to be Christian. Okay. If you profess to be a Christian, and you're making these kind of arguments, Roman Catholic arguments think about that just just saying think about what your argument is whose whose argument are you really making. Because this is a big reason there was a thing called a reformation. So if we look at this. We see here that a lot of people focus on James chapter two and verse eighteen and that says, but some will say you have faith, and I have works show me your faith apart from your works. And I will show you an I will show you my faith by my works. And they're going to argue that this is proof that faith hats to have works. In fact, what they'll often do is they'll say, well, they'll look at context and verse look at one verse just one verse earlier verse seventeen so also faith by itself. If it does not have works is dead now Roman Catholics love to use verse. Seventeen to argue that this is the only place in the bible that we see faith. Alone. Yeah. That could be true. This may be the only place that the words faith alone may appear. It doesn't mean the concept is not throughout the scriptures. But why would we expect a word or phrase that wasn't really popularized until fifteen hundred years after Christ? Why would we expect that in the first century? Faith, alone, wasn't answer to something the Roman Catholics were doing faith plus works. That's where that phrase came up. So you wouldn't expect it to be something that you see in the scriptures because they weren't having that as the issue. I mean, you see the concept throughout Galatian the whole book. But is this actually teaching that we need works to be saved? Let me deal with a couple of things really quick. And folks, again, if you wanna join in to any discussion ask any questions, you can go to politics live dot com. There's a link to participate there click that join in and we will open up for any kind of discussions. And so with this. Here's the first thing. Well, actually since ally you're here. Let me just ask you. What does salvation mean? Oh, well, where being saved from the just judgment that we deserve due due to our sin. I was reading through this James chapter two not that long ago. And I notice also something that people fail to recognize when they're using this as kind of AM on an anti Protestant perspective is that they do not see that the word justified can also be used in different contexts. And so when we say that we believe in justification by faith alone, which is clearly taught by the apostle Paul specially for example in Romans chapter four verse five, but to the one who does not work, but the leaves him justifies, the ungodly his faith is recommends righteousness, but to the one who does not work. So there's work work being left out the justification that Paul speaks of is not equivalent to the justification that James is speaking since Paul is using justification in a legal sense. And there is kind of this horizontal aspect. How are we justified before God? Whereas. In the book of James, you know, what is James say, you know, you know, I will show you my faith by my work. So these speaking to speaking to other people so you have this justification that's on a horizontal. So what you just said just because the term doesn't just because the term, you know, not justified by faith, alone, or whatever the wording there is just because it uses that phrase that seems to support the phraseology that the Catholic or the reform person or non Protestant person wants to use doesn't mean that. That's what it means you need to dig a little deeper and allow the scripture itself to make proper distinctions. Lest we acquitted when we use words like justification things like that. And and so we're gonna get because some people will try to argue that this is an example where there's a contradiction between Paul and James, I don't think there's any contradiction, but the consolidation mean more than just as you said the being justified from our sin is to salvage are more of a meaning. Than just that. Yeah. Yeah. Salvation can mean many things depending on the context in which we use the word. Okay. So salvation as a general term. And this is a big problem that you see and many people that are in colts. You will see them constantly mix up salvation because salvation in a general sense can refer to re-generation justification sanctification glorification. All these things are not the same event, but they are referred to as salvation salvation has a general meaning so there is a point time. We're we are declared righteous where we go. We're sinners to being Saint where there's a point where you are redeemed and justified and when that happens, that's what we would call salvation. And that's true. It is salvation. But that's different than the salvation. That is the process that starts at that point in time and continues until the day, we die that processes what we would call sanctification that also is referred to as salvation. When we we get into a glorified state. And when we're in a glorified state that also is referred to as salvation. So we could see salvage past present future for those of us that are believers alive. And so when we look at this we have to be aware that the term salvation has different meanings. So when people say that here, this faith is one that is going to bring about salvation, and they're talking about that process of or that point in time where redeemed or justified the question is is that what the context is. Actually, speaking of is that the kind of faith that's being spoken of here. And what is the the point time? So really where you see people that argue that Paul and James contradict one another it is because people are mixing up their terminology. In other words in this passage. We're looking at sanctification a process that follows justification when Paul argues for it as many people will bring out he's arguing for justification redemption that point in time in the past for believers that point in time that they would we'd say got saved. It's that moment that they went from being an enemy of God to a child of God. So. Oh ally. What is the most important thing when it comes to her nukes context? That's right. So let's look at the context. I here's the thing. I always find funny if I speak to any anyone that wants to hold to this verse. And they want to try to argue that this verse teaches that you must have worked to be saved. The always wanna start in verse fifteen. Why? Well, very simple because they don't want the question. That's being Heston verse fourteen verse fourteen proves that this has nothing to do with the way they're claiming. So remember their claim is that this passage is dealing with justification this is dealing with someone being redeemed. But let's look at verse fourteen says it says what good is it my brothers. Okay. Stop right there ally. If he's referring to his brothers would he be referring to believers or unbelievers? Will he be referring to believers? All right. So so right here. He's speaking people who are already believing aren't they right? So that wouldn't be redemption. Then because they're already redeemed, aren't they? Right. All right. So. What good is it my brothers? If somebody says he has faith. But does not have works. That's the question being asked. That's the whole thing here when we look at this. We have to look at this to see here. He's asking a hypothetical question. He's not giving instruction for how someone is to be saved. He is giving a hypothetical and notice what it is. If someone says he has faith means all ready has it. It's not something future. It's not something. He's going to obtain. He has that faith. He claims he saying he has notice here James is not saying that the person has faith. It's saying that he says he has faith not claims he has it. But he doesn't have works. The whole answer that we see here starting in verse fifteen and going to to the rest of this chapter is answering this question a person who claims that he has faith already, but does not have works. That's the thing. He's going to ask. And then he's going to give the answer. Now. The question is can that say faith can that safe? I can't speak tonight in that faith. Save him. Well, the answer to that is no that faith can't save him. Because it's not true faith has nothing to do with works is this is dealing with a false convert it someone who thinks he saved. So the fact that everything in verse fourteen in the reneral question that this is going to answer everything in here. Is arguing for someone who is already saved not someone who's looking to get saved. But someone who is saved. So right, right. Off of verse fourteen. We also we see this. If now. Alike. Are you familiar with Greek very much? No, I don't have a great background. I've done a little bit a little bit. But not enough. But you know, enough to know that there's different clauses in in the Greek conditional statements such as statements if than those type athetics Interfax kind of examples exactly, and what we have here is a there's different types of clauses in the Greek. And sometimes you're going to get a clause where some we're basically what it's going to say is this is this is true type of thing. And so. Would you end up seeing is this is a case where this is not saying this is the facts, but it is a hypothetical. Now. He's addressing this. I always want to focus in verse. Fourteen for one simple reason, if you don't understand the question he's answering. Then you're not going to understand the answer properly. So for folks who think and I know there's some Catholics that are watching. 'cause you guys always are watching an Eric don't let me forget about mentioning that. You know, some people were saying that Matt is dodging Jerry Maddox, and I want to make sure we address that. So don't we forget that? So when we look at this. He's asking the question to people that are believers, and he's talking about someone who says, they're a believer. But they don't have works. So if that's the case. If they're saying, they're believer. Then this can't possibly have anything to do. With getting saved or being regenerated. Because the question itself requires the person to already claim salvation, so this is dealing with someone that's already claiming that their regenerate. Therefore, this is sanctification not regeneration. This is an important distinction. And so before we move on with this ally. I don't know if there's anything you want to add to this. I think you did a great job there. And again, it's we need to interpret scripture in light of scripture. So you don't do your job by just staying in? James, you know, because we believe the entire word of God is inspired a we can interpret a particular scripture that's in conflict with other clear passages in scripture. We wanted we want to always interpret ambiguous. Ask is invite of the clear ones sticky of scripture that's in common. We're we're gonna. Eric just joined in and didn't know to turn his no one else heard that. But we heard that because he's not in the show yet. But Eric came in and has his doesn't have headphones on or anything like that. So we got nice echo is. He's joining and watching, you know, we'll we'll turn him up in a minute. We're going to have to give give Eric hard time. Just because he deserves it. I got something. I gotta look for. I got something for Eric. When he when we bring him in. Where is that? Oh, gotta look for this. No there it is. I got just the thing for Eric. Okay. Before we bring him in folk. So you'll get to hear Eric soon. But. It's continue with this. So th- right off the bat when we look at this. This is has to be explained that this is the almost sanctification. And if you mess this up, if you think it's regeneration when it sanctification you're going to be all confused because sanctification comes after regeneration. So there's no way if this is assuming that they are already saved. There's no way that it could refer to them before salvation in how they get saved. And that's the whole problem that people have with this verse is they don't read verse fourteen. Okay. He's not saying that works. Save us. He's not saying that you need works to be regenerated. He's saying that if you claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ. You claim to be regenerated you will have faith that has. Has works because the works are part of the faith when you're truly regenerate. That's the whole issue. So if someone says that they have faith, but those have works and yet he's making the case that the works and the faith go together. Then the argument is the faith. They have won't save them because it is not a regenerated faith. It's a false faith because the faith is based on not in regeneration, but either in their their genealogy their works. They're thinking, they're good nature whatever, but it's not based in the work of Jesus Christ. That's the whole thing when we get genuinely saved we are regenerated then at that time. We have the works proceeding from that that is what we see in sanctify. So if someone says they have faced faith, but there's no sanctification process, then we would have to question the faith because the works will always go along with saving faith, but the saving faith comes first. And then the works the way as as ally said earlier, this is talking about a justification amongst men. He's not saying if someone says to God, I have faith, but don't have worth. No, he's saying someone says among you brothers. If someone says to you. So this is horizontal justification not vertical justification, very different thing. And therefore, what we end up seeing is that this is going to deal with how do you know that I- regenerate? How do I know ally is regenerate? We all know, John Wilkinson is here, and he's not regenerate. So. Wow. There's no response from John. I thought he was definitely gonna make some comment. But no. So he's just giving up. He must agree with that statement. But here's the thing. You can't tell ally that I'm saved can you? I have indicate indicators that can give me an impression that you may be saved. But I couldn't know for certain I can know your say for certain, but what are we going to look for fruit? And that's exactly what versus and that's all. It's trying to say if someone says, they're regenerate. They're gonna have fruit because that's part of sanctification. This really isn't hard. I don't know why so many people struggle with this and think that it's so clearly teaching a work salvation boggles my mind because it really I just don't see how this could possibly be teaching that. I think it's infusing or Roman Catholics because they come to the table with the free supposition of equal already of sacred tradition in the Magister him. So you have scripture saying what it says. And you have the official interpretation that every Catholic is supposed to believe because that's the authoritative way of understanding scripture never spectrum. So they cannot detach their commitment to the Magister him of. They can't attach that commitment to this entire issue. So I don't think it's as simple as all the scriptures. Clear. Well, it may be clear. I agree that it is clear. But there is that that other element. That they bring to the table that we don't since we hold the solar scripture. But the thing is that when I did Facebook live video this last week. I was getting people who claim to be Christian Roman Catholic that were arguing that was what I find interesting. Yeah. You know and Roman Catholics by what is it in Roman Catholicism, the tells them that the majesty is th or. The magistrate him. Right. I mean, there's no bible verse that says that so that circular logic. I think they would they would probably argue. It's implicit in the idea as to how they understand the role of the church and tradition who carries the tradition who who is being guided by the spirit, and so I think they would make an implicit argument that you can draw that out from principals scripture, which we obviously would would disagree with. But they probably argue along those lines. Yeah. I think they would try to argue on those lines. Right. So I think I think it is time. Let's see bring Eric in here. I don't know if he's got if he's a muted he he wasn't muted anyth-. Now, he's got his camera off. So I don't. So so let's no here. So let's let's introduce Eric ready. Here's eric. We gotta get the good music going in. And I'm ready for Eric. I got my lighter here. So we could burn him. We're yeah. We were talking online that we're gonna burn the heretics here know, I told you. I'd look forward to it really. Actually looks pretty cool with the right up to the pri- destroying my camera. People that listen to this on the podcast won't be able to see that flame. They'll have to so Eric how you doing? Can you hear me is everything come in? And aren't yet is. So folks, this is Eric Eric is a friend that well, you'll guys will find out we disagree. But but a really smart brother, a great a great guy love having seafood with them. He's a heretic, but he's really smart. Hey, heretics can be smart. I just wanna burn them. That's all I just you know. You know, I love when to theological positions paying one another compliments. I love you when the Lord. Wrong and. See, I don't I don't think I don't think Eric is, you know, going to hell thank you. He could be. But I don't think he. Hey, let me give before we get into let me give a quick shadow with someone gave a super chat for folks who don't know what a super chat is. That's when someone hits the dollar sign, and they give some money, and we give them a shout out. So more cowbell gave two dollars and said, God bless and praised Jesus. So thank you for that. And I should with full disclosure let you know that all super chats all the money, that's generated from the videos that we have that will go to Karm. That's who receives that. And and. Striving for touring owns the podcast and we own the show, but just the arrangement that we've decided to work with Karm because well they can monetize their videos. So and now more cowbell saying, no, the purple shirts is destroying the camera. I guess is a good thing that John Wilkinson doesn't say anything because he also is wearing purple. So I guess we're going to ask you. I was going to ask you Andrew do you even know what the reference of more cowbell comes from and no clue? No, no, see, no idea say, that's why I laughed when I heard it because I know I know the reference is is I guess it's a movie. From. Saturday live with the crystal walk in and you could probably do YouTube search of it, and it's one of the funniest ever skits at the ever did. It was so good. We are you implying that I would not know something about Saturday Night Live. No, even though you live right across the water where they film at so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, at least, I know allies, a TV show cut me at least. That's slack. Well, you wouldn't be missing much. You didn't in watch it nowadays. All the time. Have you ever seen this particular movie and be like, no, I love Jesus because we're seeing that family guy episodes? No. Because I love the Lord sorry. We'll see the thing is. I'm just pop cultural literates get any of it. Let me give a shout out soldier for Jesus Christ gave nine dollars ninety nine cents. So thank you for that. And also. Jeffrey Robinson gave five dollars coyness on his commentary on Galicians three shows that justify was used differently than Paul. And that's exactly what we were saying. So thank you for that. Jeff, so Eric, you you are you an ally were going to have a discussion on Molin ISM something that that he lies been studying. And since I kicked Matt off the show this week. Mets come back. You know, he like did you let me publicly. Thank you for filling in for me for the two weeks that that I could not do it. But you you let Matt get into discussions on gifts for two weeks. I had to come in and spend an hour correcting the record, and Matt actually I called Matt and he had some friends over and one one of his friends are friends friend. We both have was trying to say that one in that discussion like dude, Matt couldn't stay within the context. He he had to give a meaning for the words from somewhere else in the bible violating his own rule of interpretation. He had to use logical fallacies in his arguments. So no, there's no way that I lost. There's just no way. I didn't need to jump all over the bible to give a new meaning to the text that was there. So you really should go back and listen to that KC didn't and that should fully convince you. That you were leaning toward Matt's position as still wrong. So. I should get that. It's his Mets not here. I haven't got. So here that kids back we're gonna be going again. So Eric you excuse me. I know we got down. We got together down in Dallas when I was out there, and we had a long discussion on Molin ISM something that you whole too. And so since ally was trying to study that out. I thought, hey, why don't we come in here? And just have all of us have just the discussion. So folks, this is not a debate in any way. This is just really righty lie. You had said, your you wanna learn this, and you just want to you learn best by discussion and by asking questions, and you wanted to chance to ask someone who understands it well questions, and that's what we wanted to do. So this is not a debate. Folks, don't expect a mate style. But we're wanna learn. So that we don't miss represent people. Right. And I want I would like to say for the record that I am a lame. Aiming five point Calvin est, and I consider Eric Hernandez, a friend. I don't call claiming. There we go. I don't think he's a heretic, although I disagree with certain points. And so one of the things I like to do on my Facebook page or to have called Calvinism versus Molin is a respectful dialogue. I liked to have conversations and have other people have conversations that are more toned down in the name calling and just getting down to the real issues of the arguments and things like that. So I think that's super important. You know, even what we're about the to discuss right now. It's like, I I totally want to learn his perspective because I know Molin ISM is not a monolithic perspective. There is as Kirk McGregor. Appointed outs need who's a very sharp Monus, very very sharp guy. He helped me understand that moment is is very flexible that there's there's a minimal that one could affirm to be a moment as but one could apply. In various ways, perhaps more Calvin instantly or on the other end that you can you can apply in a more within a more Armenian flavor? So I I know that going through this with Eric is not going to define Molin ISM in its entirety brats. His particular brand of Molin ISM than others who agree with them. That kind of just helps us push forward the conversation in understanding. Okay. Eric before you get into explaining your view Molin is did you see what ally? Just did. He gives me grief for for complimenting you in our. And. I actually do. I actually mean that Eric is smart. I actually believe that Eric is smart, obviously, you don't. No, no. I think I think he the guy. I think we have I are theologies are different because well, I can't say because because my the reason why I think are the different that's a point of argument. So. I I just I just wanted to point out air is my witness that you did the very thing that you said was wrong among I just wanted to point that out for the record. Okay. So. I do I do genuinely appreciate the clarification. Just my own personal studies, my favorite areas to study our creation. I love eschaton which was a gateway drug so to speak than the into apologetic. And then the area of so Tiriac in providence galvanising and things like that. So any discussion on Molin is even though I I actually used to be a Mullen this. I was a mole in two times in my life. Right. Look back and forth back in my earlier days. So you are confused, man. I greatly enjoy talking about the topic because it touches on so many other areas that are are are important be logically philosophically things like that. So I enjoy these as conference today and a meta guy Ted who you talk about end times, this he is a full predators, and I invited. He's. He right now is catching a flight back home. So he won't be able to join today. But maybe sometime he may end up joining in. He's a full predators to doesn't believe in hell. So it was an interesting conversation. It'd be fun to have been here. So so Eric if you could give because I mean deal I was in here couple of weeks ago. So some folks got to hear his background could you just quickly give folks an introduction to you? The the ministry you're doing a little bit about yourself, and then get into explaining your views of you when you speak of Mona's, and what you mean by it. Yeah. And thanks for opportunity. My name's are Kanana's. Like, you said, I'm currently recently got hired with Texas Baptists. I'm the apologetic lead for the Baptist. General convention of Texas background got into several deeply because of my atheist philosopher professor of my freshman year. Second semester took another class from intentionally from another atheist philosophy. Professor this. Time one who warned to not tickets class because I could lose my face. So I said sign me up from then just a lot of things that would a lot of questions he brought up especially dealing with the sole that he had objection would raise just really pushed me into studying and fears later, I was invited by the chairman to come back to the college and represent Christianity in a discussion. So my always kind of find it funny or Roenick that the people who pushed me into apologetic introduced me to it introduced me and give me the first platform to do apologetic for not Christians or passers was atheist philosopher professors. And I put you on the spot, you're working at least last we met on a book with a very long title that when I asked you the title you actually had to look up the title of your own book because it was so long. So without looking do, you know the title of your book? You muted? He. Yeah. I always say, I don't know if it's going down, but it's it's not an atheist, and this is a an analysis of the an analysis of the logically inconsistent, philosophically, incoherent unjustified, self-defeating atheist worldview. Because you figure that would be so easy to fit on the spine. Not the end. I mean, I just wish that you wouldn't explain the whole book in the subtitle. It's the people going. Yeah. Well, hey, it did it the debate. We were back then. So could you could you just a fine Mona's for folks that at least your understanding for folks who may not be aware of it? I know ally and Matt talked about a couple of weeks ago on this show, but you being someone that holds the position it'd be good to get your view. Yeah. Of some Mon ISM is is basically view of God's omniscience. And basically, I'm nations would be defined as God knowing every true proposition. So if the proposition, Eric like pizza, that's true Scud would know whether or not that's riffles, then you have future tents propositions, which would be like tomorrow, Eric will eat pizza, and that's also true or false. God would know that necessarily, and then you have counterfactual propositions like if x then Eric will do why that's also true or false. That would be a counter factual knowledge. And we're Mon isn't plays. In is that this knowledge comes logically prior before. God made a decision to what decision to which world to create whichever decree to degree of whatever world he wanted to create. So you have God's natural knowledge, which is knowledge of all things that would include necessary truths. So in other words to to try and be brief in a nutshell. So we can get to the conversation. God's decision to create this world was his free choice and within those choices. He knew every possibility that could occur. And then if you created creatures with free will libertarian free will than he knew what actions would take an any given circumstance and among these he freely chose which world you create so the free the Natura knowledge is knowledge that God has of of anything possible. The foreknowledge would be the knowledge of the world that he chose to create and in the foreign the middle knowledge, which would come between those two would be the knowledge that God had of any other worlds he could have created but refrained from doing so. It caught you caught all that. Well, I I mean I've been talking with Eric and others about this for a while. So so. Let me give an example, we will often sometimes talk about middle knowledge that comes up, right? And I think this is where I think some people some different definitions of middle knowledge, or at least the understanding in the way it works out. An example that I would argue from scripture would be that we see Christ. When he says if Sodom the works that were done before you were done in Sodom and 'camorra, then this is what would happen. He says they would repent sackcloth and ashes, and though it's Jesus actually claims he knows what could have happened. If he did those same works with Sada Mora. Hey claims they would have repented in south and ashes this is what some would call a middle knowledge knowledge of. So he has he we would speak of God being a mission that he knows all things past present future. And I would say real and possible I would say that God knows the possible. But when Eric when you really referred to that middle knowledge, I think where we have the differences in middle knowledge. And he'll when you know if you wanna jump in with questions to the fine too. Yeah quickly. I don't think that Monus would use that as an explicit reference to middle knowledge that would be a reference to counter factual knowledge, and we don't want a complete God's middle knowledge with just counterfactual knowledge because the Calvin est along with the moment is degrees that God has counterfactual knowledge yet. And this is where we I because we get into the terms that we have because I'm going to hold to the fact that God knows the real in the possible. I think we're Eric and I are going to disagree and an air co-. Correct me if I say this wrong, anyway, we're we're gonna disagree as I don't believe that God looked at all of the choices all these possible choices that men would make and know all those counterfactual 's and then based on that. Make decision. Okay. My view of God's -nition. It's is going to be different. Because I think God just knows everything not based on anything outside of himself. So it's not based on anything. We would do. Yeah. So I I don't think that look there anything either. If I said that was more anthropomorphic figurative, God knows all things necessarily by very nature. So got and have to look at anything to know anything. I agree with you that his knowledge isn't based on external to him. So nevertheless, that's not to say that God in a decision based on knowledge. She has I don't I don't know of any decision. God would make that would not be a based on something intrinsic to him, namely, his knowledge. So if got has middle knowledge, and and I like the distinction ally pointed out not just kind of factuals middle because it comes logically prior to his decree to create this actual world. Then I wouldn't say anything wrong with, you know, saying that God made a decision to create based on the knowledge that he had and that when included or knowledge, and I think I think an important point too because it gets into these awful distinctions for those who disagree that God has middle knowledge because there's obviously people who disagree that got has that sort of knowledge, and I like what did he? He does what some Mon is don't the bare minimum of Molen ISM for many people is that God has mental knowledge. And that there's libertarian freedom. Whereas Eric, actually, I think a narrow down his definition of moment is as a view of God's omniscience. Right. So God could have middle knowledge. Even though he never creates libertarian free creatures. Right. Would I be corrected understanding that? Yeah. Absolutely. You know, like like you said earlier, the caveat, you gave some people might disagree with that. But but yeah. Right. So I would. If we were to talk of necessarily sufficient conditions that would definitely be a necessary condition. God having that middle knowledge, and then reading a world based on that knowledge, the libertarian freedom. I would argue it's not necessary for there to exist. Libertarian freedom for Molin is to be true. But it would at least encompass that God would know what world of libertarian creatures would be like or look like if he had created them. So let's say someone wants to be a Calvinism a Monus all they would have to do is say that God indeed knew what kind of a world what the world would be like Hetty created libertarian free creatures. But then decided that's not a world he wanted so created a world in which compatible is when was true. So you would still have Mona them and Calvinism being true in the same in the actual world. Right. I think the question that I would that I would ask. And I think some people wonder when they reflect upon this is that when you say that God has counterfactual knowledge logically prior to the divine decree. How would one no? That God's counterfactual is lot counterfactual knowledge is logically prior to the decree. It seems that would be necessary aspect of holding to middle knowledge. And I think it would be connected also to the reality of libertarian freedom since God's counterfactual knowledge is located logically posterior to the divine decree, then you have a form of determinism because God determines the counterfactual 's. Whereas if it's located logically prior God doesn't determine the counterfactual their true, independent of God's willing them to be true. Would I be correct? And understanding that if you're talking about free will free real will into the mix there. So you're you're right without free will creatures he would still have middle. It's my question is how would we know? How could we know what's essential for middle knowledge? Namely that God has counterfactual knowledge logically prior to the divine decree, if if there is no free will the it would be still be a middle knowledge of what he would do and. What would work out in the things that he did? So God could have middle knowledge of his own actions. Yeah, I'd say so that's interesting. I've heard I think I've heard Dr Craig say something to a different effect. But that's fine. I have to look into a little more interesting. Okay. Yeah. And maybe maybe I'm misunderstanding. The question. What would what would be the pushback or reason why he went? I'm not sure that's why that's why has question. I wasn't trying to draft your like your. Hi like. Mandra. I think it was a traffic is coming from you. I'm not trying to. But you know, they're they're important to pick up because you guys are talking about the libertarian free will and this is important because a lot of people seem not not saying they do. But a lot of people seem to go to Mona's them because of a belief in libertarian free will almost to a fault, you know, where where there they have to give an answer. You know? I think some people that will actually look at it because they wanna give an answer against Calvinism. They wanna give an answer for libertarian free will and some and I'll let Eric if he agrees or disagrees with you know, as of heard some moments try to argue is that, you know, God they they're trying to answer for free will. And so they'll say that God created a world that gave him the most glory based on the the free will or libertarian free will of people looking at all of the choices that humans were going to make looking all of them. And then choosing the world that would give them the most glory. Now, I don't know Erica. Actually, I kind of know are in this. But I'll let you answer because I don't think the audience would know what would be your position with that. I would say I wouldn't know the exact thing, but we can speculate. Obviously, I think that's that's a good place to start would give them the most glory, maybe some kind of a ratio between saved and unsaved. But if we're dealing with libertarian Lee free creatures it would be then if another if we grant that then it would be God's decision to do this and to choose among the world in which there were libertarian creatures, and then whatever whatever he saw fit whether it be that ratio or him the most glory or those go hand in hand. I would say he des- he made the free decision to create this world. And if he's a all perfect good being, you know, trust his judgment. I I guess my question would be going back to the to the other the other point that I made before is that how how do we know how can one know that God has counterfactual knowledge logically prior as opposed to logically posterior since ram to have. It logically. Prior is what's necessary for moment isn't to be true. Or is or is it a philosophical speculation that you think it has good warrant deposit? We have good justification for positing that that that is the case because of navy principles in scripture because I think what aunt you said before if some people tend to. Lean towards Molin ISM because it answers a theological and philosophical question as opposed to deriving Mona's them. Exa generally now, you might agree disagree, but some people are geared toward moving to MOS for those reasons until that's why I asked this idea that God has counterfactual knowledge logically prior to the divine decree is that something you can derive implications in scripture, or is this a philosophical speculation that if true actually helps you make sense of some of these other scriptures. You think you know, need to be reconciled. What will few things I say. So when we're talking about the the the order we're talking about logical priority. I guess this. It would become into knowledge once God decides which world to create then what's leftover would be the middle knowledge, become middle knowledge. So middle knowledge is not essential to God's being unless he creates will another words. There's no foreknowledge until God makes that decision to create would you agree with that? And we're not talking in time. We're not talking about temporarily. We're talking about just in logical priority. Okay. So repeat the question again. So I don't I don't incorrectly answer that there's no foreknowledge until God. Actualise it when you say until it on it automatically temporal order for me to be careful. I think four knowledge is essential to the to the nature of God from all of eternity. He for knew what he would do and what he would create an who he would create in what they would do, right. And given that an in. So let's go with that. And I would agree there. Even he always knew that. But of course, there was that decision. And it wasn't in time. That's what we talk about logical. Priority logically prior to this decision, not temporarily all things and then logically. Then once once he decides which world to create then you have that kind of factual knowledge because it's countered to counter to what will be right. So that would be the middle knowledge. And that will that be wouldn't that be his in other words, the counter factual knowledge is what it is because God decreed particular world in which those counterfactual are what they are. Right. I don't know if I'd say because he decreed that world by kinda factors knowledge of the things that did not happen while you have what you have natural knowledge middle knowledge the decree. And then free knowledge, right, natural knowledge. Arledge and free knowledge, right? I would I would add that free knowledge. Yeah. No. Yeah. Free. What? Yeah. Right. So there's a three moments in between the the last two there's the decree right? There's three and then maybe I'm I'm making this up here. It's it's it's it's been a long day for me. I'll say natural middle and foreknowledge and that four knowledge or knowledge or free knowledge, which is the northern knowledge. I would say if free knowledge because it's the knowledge of God freely chose to create okay? Because I'm 'cause I my influence in Mola's has come primarily from Kenneth Heatley. So I kind of think in terms of his his could would. And will so natural knowledge is God knowledgeable could happen middle everything that that would happen and free knowledge, which comes after the decree is everything that will in fact happened since God decreed, right? Would you agree with that agree with that? Okay. All right. And so the so so you have these three three knowledge of natural knowledge, middle knowledge and free knowledge. And right here is the decree now, the middle knowledge includes counterfactual creature Lee, freedom, correct. Yes. Okay. So how does he know what those counterfactual cz are independent of a decree? That's my question. Well, yeah. I don't think it's independent of it. I wouldn't say it's independent. I would say it's just what I was getting to earlier just like four knowledge is not independent of what he decrees. Because obviously it's based on what he decrees are free knowledge or foreknowledge. It what you want. It's depend on his crease. I wouldn't say it's independent. So would you say that God Ford knows things because he knows his decrees. He knows he knows. In other words, he for no something because he's decreed or the other way around. How would you understand that? That God it cannot be for knowledge until it's decreed. But it can be middle knowledge before its decree. I I don't think it could be if it's if it's dependent on the decree if mitt or knowledge and foreknowledge it depended on the crowd. Don't think. I don't think. I'm confused because I always thought that middle knowledge comes logically prior to the divine decree. And so there are not knowledge that God has of what will use libertar-. Let's assume he created libertarian free creatures. There is knowledge of what a libertarian free creature would do in a certain circumstance and God's knowledge of that comes logically prior to the divine decree, and so once he decrees it sets really it sets in stone so to speak the certainty counterfactual actions. So I guess this relates to what's commonly brought up on. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. The whole issue of the grounding objection which again, I mean, many Mona say they responded to and maybe I'm not making a right connection. But when I'm asking, I guess is if God has this knowledge of counter, the counterfactual knowledge of creature lead decisions libertarian free decisions prior to the decree. How can these things be? What a creature would do. Without a decree since God has this knowledge before he makes the decree does that make sense. I think so and limit let me come back. Okay. Get on the same page. So remember mineralogy is knowledge relevant to what counterfacts or knowledge is relevant to what is counter to fact, so has to be back before there's a counter to it. So I would say it'd be dependent on what God decreed, so no facts of creatures. Before the decree. Now, I would say there is. Okay. So then I don't understand what you're say. And maybe if I could ask Andrew quick are you following Andrew? Do you see where I'm having difficulty? And I I have a bunch of questions that are coming up. And actually, I know John had one that I think is is going to be good too. So I think, you know, I think part of the issue here is is definition of terms. And not. We have to be careful not to read into it. What we think someone saying with some of this because you're it? There's a lot here. And I think you and Matt said this what's three or four weeks ago when you were on. That this is something that is a very philosophical, and it takes some understanding. And if I'll put this out there for anyone listening, if you take a knee jerk reaction to Molen ISM and don't take the time to understand what people are saying about it. You're you're making a mistake. Okay. It it takes time to understand this. But I do wanna I I wanna ask if I could the question John had John? I don't know if you want to meet yourself and ask it. But go ahead. I'm eating. Okay. John John had said this can can God forward Dane slash predestine, a person's choices and are they still free. And I because I think what he's getting near as a question. I was going to ask. Based on what you are saying ally. I it almost sounds like. And I'm saying almost because I want Eric to to correct this. But it sounds like once God chooses which world he's going to create it is it's determined like we can't do anything against that. So are we really free then? Yes. Because by determined. I wouldn't so it sounds like in order for what you're saying to be true you'd have to say causally determined. So if we we replace the were determined with choice if God chose to create a world, and and we can say determine as long as we're not talking about Claude determination. Yes. There could still be free. Well, but can't okay God chooses a world. Once he chooses it. Can I do anything other? Then what I'm going to do in that world. I mean, do I am I really free to make any other choice in the world that he chose well two things first. Yes. Of course, I reject what you're talking at either. Call dul ability or principle of possibilities. I reject that as a necessary condition for libertarian freedom. But yes, you could do other than God knew you could do not note. There's a difference between you could do versus you. You will do. Okay. For first aid Koren's coming right? Okay, want you to do because and this is the thing, folks. I always have to do with Eric when he's on the show because not everyone follows these things and studies philosophy like he does one you to define the terms. You just use that folks understand the differences and what you're saying you disagree with. Yes. Of course. So like Louis talking about bring up the corns. It's it's those those godly acorns he likes to talk about. So let's because what we're sensually asking about is like you're saying could I do counter to a God knows. But this is a question of of things capacity. So for example, it's giving with the nature of an acorn. It has a capacity to if planted in the ground grow root system and become an oaktree. But suppose God decrees that this acorn is going to sit on my desk and never be planted in the ground. And he knows that this acorn would never be planted and never become an oaktree. Does it follow from that? Therefore that acorn losers capacity to if plans in the ground becoming oaktree. No, of course that capacity remains even if it's never actualized. So if the question is could I do something if God knows how to X could I do something other than ex we could. But it doesn't follow from the fact that I could that had the. Passively do. So that I that I will do. So. So there's nothing wrong with saying God knows that I will do x and Simon simultaneously knows that I could also do not X or could do I is that answer not available to the Calvin est to believes that God decrees in the way that Calvin est typically understand that since since on Calvinism if you read safer example, someone like AWS pink is the example of the bones of Jesus. Yeah. Could be broken. But given the given the decree of God that they won't be broken or not. But seems like the answer you're giving to your. I guess you're not trying to reconcile the you're trying to explain how if God for a date something, you're still free to do something. And that is kind of something that fits within your perspective. Everything you said unless I'm being inconsistent. I would I would say something to that effect as a Calvin est is that's something unique to to your view that that that I can't have as a Calvin. Well, it would depend who's the first mover of your of your will on your perspective as I understand Calvinism. God your second. Especially in other words, if compatible is true, I don't know how Miller your audiences with with libertarian freedom compatible ISM, but if compatible as MS true than you're just cost to do something by external factors beyond your control on my mom in my view of libertarian freedom. You are the first mover. You are the the originator of your your original source of your will and action. So it starts with me on compatible ISM your cost to act by something external to yourself. So if your costs act something external to yourself. Then you you could try news that example, but you were in either the either way you try to reconcile that you're still out the first mover, and I would argue if you're not the first move, and then you don't have libertarian freedom. What do you mean that we believe that we are caused to do the action? We as in Calvinism Countess like when you said, you know, if God God causes us to do what we do. What do you? How do you understand what we believe about what that means? Well, if assuming that the Kelvin's is compatible on compatible as miss just determine ISM did you have been? Well, well, I mean, a again, I I'm just trying to understand when when someone's for example, I'm asking the question because if if God didn't create you then you wouldn't do anything you wouldn't make choice. But if God creates you we could say in a sense what you do God for nosy will do you could hypothetically, you have the capacity to do something. But that capacity will never be actualized because God's foreknowledge can't be falsified. So in a sense, we can say will because God created you. And he knew what you would do and that makes certain. What you will do in a sense God causes you to do it. Now. That's I asked the question of how you understand 'cause since caused can have different meanings there. I mean, they're different ways in which something can cause another thing. That's why I was asking the question. Well, there's a difference between God the cause of my assistance versus God being the causing my Willer actions agree with you that God is the reason for which I I, but he is not the mover of my will, otherwise, I don't have a genuine free would say his genuine freedom and just because God would create me doesn't make certain any particular action. There has to be a number of other things that would come into play in order free particular action to be certain. So in other words, if God wanted if God wanted to if got credit world in which let's say, I hit my sister when I'm five will. Just real quick. I just love when the analogies. We talked about this when we bring up analogies. Philosophers always used the worst case. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Because we're talking about the other day outside my house sitting on the porch and something about about rape. And I realized I was outside with people walking like a better talk about this inside that. So let's say. There's a world in which I hit my little sister. My little sister when I'm five well in virtual got created me doesn't make it certain because he could create me and then refrained from creating my sister. So it'd be impossible for me to hit a sister that doesn't exist. So it's not just in virtue of him created me that these actions become certain, so they're an I would just add onto that reiterate the distinction. I made a difference between God being the cause of my existence versus the cause of my will. Well, okay. So so fair enough. So if God creates you create your sister. But I guess I'm assuming that when God creates you. I'm also presupposing the whole nexus of reality. So you in this world in which people who exist exists. So that you don't exist independently of anything else. God creates you. He creates you. When he does to be to be placed in the point of history that your place in the family that you're placed with the sister that you have with the temperament that she has all of the influences that go into shaping informing those things. So it seems to be that with all. All of those things considered the particular act to hit your sister is certain since with all of those things set in place. God for nosy will do it in can't be wrong about that. So it seems to me that you you could do otherwise hypothetically, but you will not because God already for knows what you will do. Out that that a few things a few things because that's the whole point of Mon ISM is the possible worlds. And by that, it's simply a figurative way of speaking. We don't mean for the listeners. I mean like a multi versa means the range of possibilities. A moment. You change anything in the world that you're talking about it, then becomes a separate possible world. So let's say in this very same world in the world in the actual world this world that we're in that's suppose, God gave me three more hairs within. It's no longer this word. It's it's a hypothetical deposits into the possible world. So. Ga is when you say when you have sue my existence use him, all these other things. Well, that's that's too with respect. Then you're not kind of understanding the semantics of possible worlds because you would have to say sure in this actual world that would be a certain action. I will take that's not to say it would be a certain action another possible world where I had another sister. No sister. So now, I don't know how deep you want to go here. But you know, with my view on the soul and the existence of the soul to do see in view where I could not exist. If I had a difference at a parents than shroud grant that not for me to exist. You would have to have the lineage that I had, but, but that's only one factor in a myriad of factors that come into play such as I mentioned earlier, I can't hit a sister. I don't have. I I guess basically kind of the question that Andrew I don't see how you can be free to do other than what God for knows. You will do. That's what you ask the regionally. And we went on a little deep into that. Which is back. I mean, all all that said that that's helpful. But just back up. How can someone is it nearly just he has the capacity will find we can say he has the capacity, but he won't actually actualize that capacity because God for four knows how that person's capacity we played out. So how can he be free to do other than what he in fact us if God for knows, I don't see how God for known removes the ability to do otherwise. Well, we will where you understanding the ability to do otherwise a hypothetical ability, right? Sure. I'm it's it's it's within my capacity to otherwise. Okay. What? Because God for knows. We will never do what we have in our capacity to do other other than a specific thing that we choose right. Say that again. I was when I said that I was hoping you would have to say it again because I was like, I'm gonna have difficulty formulating that. Andrew understand the kind of question asking, maybe you can clarify for me because I'm. I think I do. And I just want to also say that I brought in both Chris and entirely village on in. So I know that they enjoy discussing this as well. So what you're saying? So many get jumped. I put my flame away. Oh, no. I can't burn you. Now, you have the capacity him. But if God doesn't yeah. Yeah. I think I think the area where we kinda struggle is. This may not be a best way to word it. But how free is free in in a Molen worldview. I mean, if that makes sense, and I sort of thing does where you live trying to get is, you know, if if once gods so lax world, we really can't choose anything. But that in that world, he selects because. Well, because you had said if if you have three more hairs, then it's a different world than the one. We have three less hairs. So when God chooses the world where you have three less hairs. You can't have three more hairs because that would be a different world. So this world can only do that which it was selected to do which then and this is my my view, I kind of. I think that Molin ISM is more determinist than Calvinism would be because once once got chooses that world, you can't do anything. But what he does here when I'm going to burn you at the stake. And this is nothing. I haven't said to you it person for folks listening. Well, no because because if there's libertarian freedom, then then if I determine as a mean Causley determine Causley Termine, then there is no deterministic sense in this world, just because it would be a different world. Doesn't mean there's any. There's nothing with our freedom. There's nothing will change in within our capacities as human beings. If it's within our nature to have libertarian freedom. Then adding three more hairs three less hairs on my head doesn't do anything to my capacity. Okay. So let's. If in another world where I did not choose gun. Right. That would be a different world than the world where I chose God and saved correct? Yes. Okay. So if in that world where I chose God and amusing and just using the language that for for Mona's. I'm not I wouldn't argue that I chose. But. In the world where I chose God can do anything. But to choose God. Yes. That be another world when you say, yes, Eric, what you're referring to is that you could in the sense that you have the capacity to kind of like a corn having the capacity to grow into a tree if it were placed in in soil, right, right? And I think Andrew would agree with that. As a Calvin est. You would I having difficulty distinguishing why you're able to say that in that helps your position, but as a Calvin is he can't say that. And it doesn't help his position you understand where I'm coming from Andrew. Yeah. I mean, it's it. If if it's a completely different world once I don't choose God. I'm in a different world. But God selected the world where I chose him. I'm incapable. Of not choosing him because that's what happens in this world. And if I have the capacity not to choose him, that's a different world. Well, no because then you'd have to say that that your capacities are dependent on what you will do and everything you don't do automatically those capacity world. Yeah. Correct. Correct. So so in other words, I so I cannot. Do anything. But choose if it's the world God's selects were. I choose God. Then I'm must choose God. I can't do anything. But that because I do anything, but that it would be a different world is that with the word, can I was just reading John frame systematic theology a couple of days ago, and he warns Calvin est from using the language of total inability within the would been the context of so Tiriac because he points out. I think what Eric is pointing out that the unbeliever has the capacity he has the capacity. There's nothing lacking within his mental faculties that he could make a choice if he desired right? He could he is able in that sense. But he, but he doesn't have the will to do it because of other factors. So I again coming from John frame who's a Calvin. I think he would. Agree with with what Eric is saying here. And that's where my difficulty is. Why is this something that helps your perspective in which you're using this to explain you'll he could do this? And it doesn't fit within the communist perspective unless you think it equally pits in both perspective. It seems like John rang thing so from understanding correctly. Well, you could save on communist perspective. But you'd have to explain it differently. Because on my perspective. I'm the first mover as I understand compatible ISM. God is the first mover and use a secondary means to 'cause you're willing actions. Yes. But you so. Okay. So and this is we're getting into really libertarian free will, but you were saying that's not actually part of Mona's tied to it. It's not necessary to have not necessary. So so you're you're saying that your view I wanna just wanna make sure I'm clear on this. You're saying your view, you'd be the Ness. Sery-? First mover. I would say in owner for libertarian freedom to to exist. You have to be necessarily the first mover. Yes. Okay. Not that being the first mover has to exist necessarily. But if there is libertarian freedom that's supposed to exist, then necessarily you have to be the first mover. Okay, now because I I'm gonna go back to because I just want them really wanna see that. We get a good understanding this in the world. The God selects were I I become a Christian, right? I convert from Judaism Christianity. If he selects that world will I do anything? But that. No not. If that's if that's what you'll do. Because it's almost telling you here if I will do x tomorrow, and will I not do X. No. Because then you you can't say that you will do X tomorrow. Okay. Okay. So so we we understand that. So I will do that. I will repent. Is it God who is selecting that world? Yes. Okay. So once God makes that selection. I there. This will happen. Correct. Yes. That would be gone in my view that is the terminus once. Yeah. Exactly. Right. And that's not not that it can't fill that. It will not fill to happening not fail. It will not fail to happen. This is why I say that. I think that it's. It's more deterministic than I because once once God selects that world we can't. But do what is determined for that that world right now? I would disagree because it's like saying whatever it did yesterday. I could not have done otherwise could have done. Otherwise, didn't there's nothing to terminus about. Pass. There is something that's Herman's their terminus stick in this one because God is looking at all these possible worlds and selecting one and once he selects one that is what we will do. Now, he could shows in something else. So really he had the will to choose one world over the other. But once he chooses that world, we can't do, but what was determined for that world. I will do. What I will do in the world that God selected and that selecting of that world is done independent of what I do. So what I do is not dependent ultimately on what I choose to do. But it's done because of the world that God chose to actualize. You can go ahead. I was gonna say I wouldn't word dally because God would I do. God knows I will do and he is free to use my free decisions of what I will do. So as long as you have libertarian freedom. There's nothing to terminate at all about it's God using our free choices not causing our choices that you will do. Right. But he will choose the world. Namely where you will do precisely what you do. Right. Because because let's say this God knows what I'll do freely then then then the whole objection I would say falls apart. If God knows what I would do freely. Then you can't call it causally determinative an interest for the record and for the fun of giving jabs at air. Eric doesn't want to word it that way because it would sound wrong. Thinking, but I'm going to be. I know each other pretty well. He knows we like. About Eric is I think he understands making distinctions. Yes. But in that last part, I it seems as though you were being as consistent, but that that's just NIA, obviously. That's okay. Just make. That's so funny. Goes you guys? In other words, why is it? Because essentially, you're going to have to argue that God's knowledge is determinative just because he knows something. Therefore, it's Causley determinative. But knowledge, which is a mental state does not call. What my wife will do tomorrow right knowledge at the sun will rise. We were making. Although that's a common. That's a common misconception. If God for God. For knows what you will do. If God knows that I will mow the lawn tomorrow. Can I choose not to mow the lawn tomorrow on the arguments usually put forth that because got for knows it it will necessarily happen. And that doesn't follow because it commits a modal fallacy we have to make a distinction between necessity and certainty. So that wasn't the assumption that I was thinking about I would I think I was on track with what Andrew was trying to say, it's just the certainty of what I will do is based upon not what I will do but based upon the world God chooses, right, but the world that God chooses is the counterfactual is based on what I will do if God critter world in which I had two sisters then I would hit two to five. But if it's only one in any of those worlds. Just because God knows what I'll do doesn't doesn't make determinative because it's still based on my freedom to choose to do that. So it's as long as there's nothing external to myself that is causing my Willer actions, and I'm still free, and I could do otherwise chosen not to okay? Let me just say this. Then I'll let Chris ask a question. I guess my thing with this. Eric is. And I'm trying to break it down. Really simple. Right. God is the one that selects or determines or chooses the world. And once once he does that once he selects that world that world will happen. And that's so that's I mean, just simple level. This is why I it's. It's once God select some God is the one actually doing that selecting. And then really forcing that happen. If we if he selects one, and then that is what will happen in that world. Then that realistically, I would I think you you're gonna libertarian person libertarian will break out in hives when you use the word or thing. Right. The entire thing that when ward changes the entire no, it isn't because we don't have the ability once God selects a world, we cannot do anything. But what we do in that world. Right. And that that's the entire disagreement here you could. But that that has different world, though, wouldn't it? No, no. Because let me put it this way is it possible for God's know that in world in this world, I will do x and. I will. And I could simultaneously have done. Why? Yeah. But you will do X. Correct. Right. But you're trying to put a period there. Can you can you anything? I do anything other than ex. Yes. Okay. We'll we'll you do anything other than ex. Okay. So that's the point right there. Right. That I'm really choosing to exit of y and once God selects that world where you will do X really that is then determined. No, yes. Because you can't do anything. But Tyler wrote something I want I'm interested if Eric agrees with this. Tyler Tyler tech that here he says God's knowledge doesn't determine the truth values of the world. His creation of the world. Does. No, not determine if again if but determine you you would mean make search, and then sure but not Causley determine, but it would make it certain because and and I get the sentiment here. Because there's a lot of some people were Jek Molin isn't because they they have this. I would I would say eroneous view that it's determinative. And that's why some people say that. It's it's eerily close to Calvinism because I would I would agree with a lot of things that some communist would say that. Yeah. God it's by God's choice it that. I'm saved that. I because of course, they've gotta wanted to save me. I create me. So it's not just Gus choice. I'm saying it's also Gus choice that I it just so happens that he's able to do that bring about something with the actions of free creatures, and that's the difference. And that that was Molina's position. So to give a caveat. 'cause I I've talked to McGregor over Facebook a little bit. And he said if if you're talking about what Molina believed, and yes, libertarian free will was essential to him for million this doctrine. But if you're just talking about Mona's the way I've talked about it. Then then sure you you could you could say it's not essential. But given that mcgregor's thinking more like a story, and this is central to what Molina believe and. Yes, that is often why people turn to that. Because the way you can reconcile these things with libertarian freedom. That's why every time if if you're gonna throw in the word terminates, you're gonna have to tell me how you define it. Because when I think determinative, I'm usually thinking causally determined. No. Well, I'm using it this way. If God selects a world where we do X. We can't we we will not do anything. But X that's how using and that's how you described that God's elect something, and we will do that. It's it's determined because we won't do anything. But that now, I know Chris had a question and one I wanna make sure we got about half an hour left in the today show doesn't mean we can't continue on another. But I also don't want it to be gang up on on air as much as much fun as that could be so so I'm going to say let Chris and Eric and allina bequeathed forbid, and I didn't get a definition with term as determined by the way. Yeah, we can well the on by the way. Sure, I was just going to bring up actually Tyler said, and I was gonna ask you a question because you bring up it's not caused determinative will how would gones free unnecessary choice, actually this world over any other world that were possible for him to actually how would that free unnecessary choice because we wouldn't say that it was it was necessary for him to either gray or to or to create this world, but that that action of freely an unnecessarily choosing actue this world be the causation for all the choices in this world. Because without that first prime move nothing. Whatever happened. If I understand correctly. Well, I I don't say that God's choice to create this world is what causes our actions that is what color was sane at least implying as I understood it. And the distinction early that God is a cause for try exists. But he's not the cause of my will. There's a difference. He can create factors that influence my decisions, but influences are not causally determinative, they merely influenced. So if I have libertarian free will then these factors influence my will. But they don't 'cause my well because it is still up to me as to whether or not I act or refrain from acting upon my influences, right? But wouldn't it be the case that under Molen, isn't that the only the only place that you can actually posit a libertarian free will would be pre creation an independent trying to make is that because we would say that you would have a point if God had to create like if it was necessary for him to create and then by him having to create that he had to create this world just to deal with what he has. Right. But he made. An unnecessary free choice to create. There's no reason that he has to. There's no reason that he had to choose this world other than on free decision. Right. So so so you can posit with between free will in the counter kind of factuals prior to creation, but post creation after God's free choice. This determinative factor of all things, which is this choice to create that. There is no libertarian for. You know? So I would have to ask you to find what you mean by libertarian freedom as I've defined it. It's your the originator source of your Willer actions or the first mover of your Willer action. So even even if I would grant that I could not have done, otherwise, I would argue that that does not eliminate libertarian freedom as long as you're the first mover now, I do think you could have done otherwise. Because as I was saying earlier, there's nothing wrong with saying, I think the issue here is my brother's disagree with me. Here are saying God knows you will do X period where I'm saying no hold on. Let's put a comma there. God knows. I would do x. Comma, and that I could have done not X or Y. There's nothing wrong with saying God knows both of those things. It's not as if if God knows one thing he can't know that I could have done the other thing, God would know both these things and there's nothing wrong with the world in which God knows I will do x but could have done why or not ex- right in using in using defense there that actually compatibles uses as far as the principal. Evolve. New possibilities concerned the the being able to do otherwise. Right. So you're most of the time libertarian would because they're about their at least seventy Senator percents of the word words Kanter could when when we take that phrase Kanter could do otherwise in the libertarian always pick the counter Kennard causal or the the contra causal sense, which is the libertarian since which would include the category who ability to do otherwise. Right. That there is the actual. It's not that. It's not that you just have these two actions. But at the point of choice, you could choose. Either. A or b there's nothing to keep you from doing that. That just is what libertarian free will is. Now, the panelist will I would disagree. We'll the compatible. This would say that that that's not the case we we would argue as. Basically how you're arguing for we could or we can do otherwise based on conditional -bility rather than categorical Reiko. So we could say I did something different in a situation. Had I wanted to I had my desire the different for had gone decree differently. So so that's the compatible defense of that you're actually using. But most libertarians which I would say that you're defining libertarian free will dip away the most would they would need in and say that the it is necessary for categorical -bility of pain Lipton from right, and I disagree with that. And it wouldn't be a form of compatible. As what I'm saying is because I'm saying, I'm the first mover on compatible as me or not the first mover. You're an intermediate mover to to briefly explain that of often said if let's say there's a murder like when I when I talk about more responsibility. We know that it was the bullet that actually penetrated the heart and kill the person. But we don't blame the bullet. Because the bullet was not the first mover of its action. So let's go step back. Let's look at the gun. Well, no because the going also is not the first mover, and we stop at the person, we blame them. But if the person was simply an intermediate link in this chain of events, which on compatibles when he would be then he too if we don't blame the bullet than we can't blame the person we have to keep going back to find the first mover and given your world, not your what view, but whatever that person's worldview as compatible as and whatever first mover that is that's the person to blame for the entire of events. Okay. Cool. Well, that that's actually been have you read Greg wilty SEAL net. Now, the the whole bullet building thing, it's a wonderful essay, you ought to check it out. It was specifically toward Monus and it actually uses a gun analogy the same as you use. He he would say that the or I would say I'm not sure it's been a while today. But I would say that the first mover that you're looking for their we established earlier with God's choice to create it. It's not it's not your choice at at post creation. Right. But the reason why you pull the trigger. Or did whatever you did was because God I pulled the trigger in in the active on the first mover. What I'm saying first mover 'cause I would agree that God's a first mover of of existence. He is he is the one that created all things he is a reason for existing. But there's a difference between my existence versa. My action. We could also say that the reason for which I this is my parents. But my parents aren't as possible for my action. So yes, got as a first mover in regards to creation, but that's not to say in regards to my will. Yeah. No. I would agree with that. I would agree that they're different causations that we will have to go into we have about because I wouldn't say that that dance gones causation Ammann's causation is homogeneous. I would say that they were different right in in by doing that. We would have to look at guys causation as as hyper physical, whereas man's physical. But I mean, you were looking for the first primary which we do have in God. Well, remember mover of my will not of my assistance will would you have ever made that choice without God's three choice to great. No. And this is why like Norman guys are says that got it responsible for the fact of freedom, but he's not responsible for the acts of freedom and that usually use a free defense against evil. So got it responsible for the fact that I had the capacity to act freely, but he's not responsible for the acts which I freely partaken, right? Which is again a classical reformed apologetic. When it comes to the the the defense of the problem. When God at the honesty on which which is strange because all of those defenses are available of Monus as well. They can dive into the history of reform apologetic, and that way, and it just grab different offenses and using the same way that we do. That's why argue as Andrew, and I think he lies are you before that the post creation moment is no less deterministic than our determination, all of the differences, and the libertarian language that you can use as is concerned all comes prior to God's I freely create if I don't know of any communists that is a liberal agrees libertarian freedom because if you're going to be a Calvin est and a tier two compatible ISM then you can't use a defense I use because on my defense. You are the first move of your will on compatible as you are not the first mover. It's it's determine him. So I mean, I I guess. Because I just wanted if we could back up, and I do apologize. Chris. I finally back in your line of reasoning after I asked this question. Sorry. Of course, I mute him. And then he can ask anything. That's true. That is true because because I can determine that as the host. Acidy to ask you have the capacity to ask. But if I select that you won't do it. Then you can't do anything, but not ask C. Let's push further. You could still will to you just couldn't carry out your actions he can thing without being able to carry out the act that you therefore I would determine it. Now that means you just limiting his action. But I will. Okay. You correctly pointed out, and I think this is this is important because when we use analogies the analogies, we used owing don't always have a one to one correspondence with the point. We're trying to make. So you use the example of a person having a child, and that the parent is not responsible for the actions of the child, which I agree. But God being the parents of us all so to speak is not like a human parent. That's limited. God is like the parent who gives birth to his children knowing precisely what will happen and will happen and will not not happen. So in some sense that's different than apparent merely having a kid and not being responsible for what they do. God is clearly not analogous to that. There is a way in which God chooses to create these children, and they do precisely what they were. Will do and they will not do what they won't do because Andrew points out once he chooses to to create that world. What will happen will happen? It can't why can't say the word can't be. And that's that's where we're disagreeing exactly that at any other stuff. That's the entire point is a one this all soums that Dula -bility our principal. Turn possibilities is a Nisar condition. Libertarian freedom, which I disagree with you give an example as to why you disagree with that. Just so that I could make sensitive my own mind. Yeah. And this would be opened up a can of acorns. So one thing that convinced me of this, and I'm my I may even upset some people who agree with liberty and freedom, but I'm free to do that. So let the upsetting begin. So when you look at Christ. If we take to maximally great being Cialis. Geology and God is maximally perfect. Then it would be logically impossible for him to sin. But did he still freely? Choose to refrain from sending what has long as he's a first mover. I'd say yes doesn't matter that he could not have done. Otherwise point is that he is the first mover of his Willer actions. I've heard Craig is a similar well in an analogy, which you know, there's there's some problems with allergies but in principle he argued. That he's suppose you're you're on a diet, and you're sitting on your couch, and you know, that your wife the night before brought home chocolate cake and on your counterpart implanting where not you're gonna eat this cake. And then you tell yourself, you know, what? No, I'm not going to do it. And then so you refrain from eating the cake, and then let's say later on in the night you wake up, you know, to grab a glass water from the fridge, and you open it and low behold the cake wasn't there. And you're like, oh, where's a cake and your wife says, oh, I took it to work early this morning, which means even if you wanted to when you went there there, there was no cake. But that doesn't mean just because you could not have eaten the cake doesn't mean you're not the first mover over frame to choose to kick in the first place. I it's it's a relatively it. The principle is that as long as you're the first mover. You don't need the ability to do otherwise. So that something that started to convince me that Bill ability was not a necessary condition for libertarian freedom. And then another example would be something like infants I I would argue that they have liberty and freedom. If there. Movers, and they just perhaps have not developed or don't have the capacity to do something like a think in certain ways or have certain disciplines developed, so they can't do otherwise. But it doesn't mean that they're not the first movers as long as you're not Causley determined by something external or prior to yourself and your the originator of your will our actions. I would argue you have free will libertarian do say that the ability to do. Otherwise is a necessary condition for being blame-worthy or praiseworthy in regards to moral actions. No, I don't think. So. Because like I said as long as you're the first mover. So so someone could not in one sense, not have the ability to do otherwise and can still be morally culpable for what they do, and you can even have differently because it could have in some sense lost some type of ability by let's say, a diction or something like that somebody extent. But as long as they're not. Causally determined by something else. Then at some point. It was in other words, it'd be their fault that they're in the position they're in. If you're there to drugs, it can't just will not be addicted rather, they cannot make themselves not be addicted. They could still will it, but they can't make themselves not addicted. But it could also be the case it was it was her fault from the for the addiction, or whatever the case is that they've whatever steps they took. But as long as the first mover, and they're the ones that are ultimately responsible. Okay. So let me ask this. And and what I do we want to give a couple of minutes because we have someone that came in seeking seeking the narrow way just want to make sure that if she has questions I want be out to give a little bit of time to get them. But so let me just say this you keep saying that we're the first mover. Of our will. But once God selects that world, then ultimately, he's really the first mover because he's choosing that world, and we can't we will do only what we will do in that world. And he knew that. Therefore. It is because he selects it, shall we say Alexis because of his election, this will happen. But that's that's that's where I keep coming back to. He's really the first mover because in all these different worlds that yet they play out. They're only playing out in his mind. They're not actual yet. They only are actualized when he actually is is that world therefore, he first actual is is the world. And then all these things take place. So he ultimately is not only the first mover, but elect every detail that's going to happen in that world. Yeah. Having difficulty seeing how? How we are the first movers. If we are contingent beings. Contingent. So I if the understanding that concept of being genuine first mover. An after Eric answers understand Eric that a libertarian free choice is is kind of like an autonomous choice. Completely economist. Joyce. Before before we go there because I I know what you mean by that. Let me put it this way. When I wife, I set up the entire situation everything from the dress. She would wear the shoes jewelry, the time the music will be playing the background the place. We would go to determined the circumstances. And I knew what she would do doesn't mean she she could not have been otherwise. And it is she did what she will do. But that Inouye took away her ability to say, no just because I know what circumstances. Break stop you in in this because here's where I see the difference. I is why keep asking once God selects a world. Where your wife will marry you? Will she ever not marry you once he selects that world? Well, again, I think this is what I was saying early where where you're you're kind of asking an incoherent question because if you say if your wife will do X will she not do X. Well, if you say, she will do X, and that's what she will do she won't do because that's what she will do that has nothing to do with with that we're free, but here overs, nobody has everything to do with the terminus them. Determinant is being in external and prior to yourself if I'm not caused by something external prior to myself, I'm not causally determined to do that. All right. All right. So here's Erica. I wanna give you word for this. Then I wanna go to seeking the near way. See if she has some questions, and if she doesn't will come we're going to wrap up we'll we'll come back to. Okay. And this this this helps so I got is choosing amongst possible worlds in which and if we're going to grant libertarian freedom, then he's choosing amongst worlds of things that I do freely. So if we grant I'm doing these things freely that in no means can this be determinative Causley determinative if it's called the Terminator than I didn't do freely. If I didn't freely than it can't be called you determinative. So if you're going to grant that at least for the sake of argument than in no way, can you call it in terms of for example, if there is no possible world in which I will freely eat dog crap for dollar then God could not choose a world in which I do that. And caused me to do it. It has to be a world in which I do at freely. So. If we grant the God choose a in which I do something freely. Then just because he knows what happened for searching. Doesn't mean. It's been caused the determined to happen. Okay. So we'll first off we can we now officially know that your position is wrong. No, no, no, you're gonna you're gonna love this how we know late and flowers just commented. Good job, Eric. So you know, if he's agree with you. Only kidding Layton. All right. Let me let me I want to bring. Insane. Layton's going to a four hour episode on that now. Nice. Andrew. Listen late and just said, hey under love you. I think Eric you're doing an awesome job. And this is really is really helpful genuinely I find this helpful especially all joking aside about the corns that was very helpful in allowing the the distinguish this this kind of Kenai do this, you know, or could I do that are helpful distinction? Because I didn't think of that before. So I do appreciate okay. So. And just for Eric to think about and if maybe can answer, we'll see it would seeking their way says, but the issue that I see is that how can we have a libertarian free will when we don't exist to son think about but I added in seeking their away. If you wanna unmet yourself. I don't know if you haven't I know you've been hanging out for a while. And I want to since we do open questions. I didn't know if you had one or if you want to wanting to speak on this. So. Well, I do speak on this. And I thank y'all for this conversation. It's really interesting. I'm closer to Eric Cy the Diddy. What else is and that's kind of what I wanted to ask like all of these questions about possible worlds, and everything is very interesting. But we know that God created a world in which he made at a mini and they are free will beings who created offspring in their offspring created offspring. So basically what's wrong with God? Creating what he created? Which is a world full of free will beings. And he just knows what it is that we were going to do. Was that a question for me or for Andrew? I would say Andrew because I do believe in libertarian free will. And why why does there have to be a world where God created knowing are choosing every choice that I make. If that makes any sense will so manscaping when I'm saying that answering for the position that Mona's would have that that God looks at all of the choices we make knowing what all the outcomes of every choice that everybody in all of history will make and then selecting one of those worlds, and that's the one he actual is is that's the one that we're in. That's the that would be the position that that Molin is. Yeah. So that's not the position that Calvin Ismay because that's what I kept hearing. That God aided what he created. And we can't veer away from. Them. Let me say this. This is this forget your first name. I'm sorry. But seeking the narrow way. Commie seeking okay? So here's the thing. This is why I say in my position Eric disagrees. With me, I understand that. But this is why I say that Mona's MS Moore determine ISM then hyper Calvinism is. Okay. That's why I that's why come to that conclusion. Because of the way that I'm viewing Molin is. Right. Not do missed in that. I guess I had a bit of a misunderstanding probably came in a little late. Not an easy. It's not an easy thing to understand. So, you know, it's something that those take. And this is why when ally said he wants to have a discussion. And this is why it's not a debate. And this is Eric and I've done this before on on my YouTube channel because we want to have this kind of discussion where we can disagree. The only name calling is done in jest. You know? I mean, here's the ultimate name calling. Eric late and flowers says Eric is brilliant. I mean, there you go. There's the problem right there. You're in trouble. You're trouble just saying. To do. Otherwise, you know. Determine him. No, God God's selected a world. Where late and flowers would think that you're brilliant. Yeah. Could land do nation his name like Tober three times? He's going guaranteed disappeared. Right. Say something just want to clarify something you what was stop. Getting back to the question that seeking seeking was asking. I think the difference between Calvinism in Molen ISM is that God determines the truth. Values of counterfactual counterfactual creature freedom on Molen ISM. God does not determine the truth. Values of counterfactual free, a free Libre totally free acts of Saipem this word of that. Would. I be correct in saying that God doesn't determine the truth values of those things. And that's kind of a kind of a point of contention in these kinds of discussions because then we asked what ground what grounds those true get into the whole the grounding objection the my understanding correctly, a yeah. And I think I think your understanding perfectly. It's just they just happen to disagree with, you know, a position like yours or mine, and and would allow you bring up is a good point. Because here's where I would tend to shy. Away from Calvinism because if God is determined the truth valley of these things, then as I wonder stood it, and I think talked about this. It's because God has caused these things. But see, I don't believe got us 'cause these caused though, what do you think? Order sense. He was the one that pulled the trigger that led to whatever action whether. The trigger. Well, what do you mean by called? This is a genuine. It's not like giving pushback, like, we difficulty. Understanding what you or people who hold your position. What you understand as what it means how God causes because because we personally I think that God causes all things. But I'm not sure what I mean by that. I know that there are different senses in which in which causation can take there are ways in which you can understand and be like. Wow. Like man that would make God the author of evil. But then there are other ways you could understand causation that that doesn't and I'm not sure exactly how to explain that. Just me personally think Calvinism mean when talk about that. Yeah. And then I would just recommend using two different. 'cause it, but okay, let's take as I understand it if Calvinism. Most countersign L Calvinism are compatible don't know of any that are not compatible but giving compatible as among compatible ISM you. Give it a version of determinist. You're you're willing actions are caused by something extra and prior to yourself. Now, if you and most will claim that it is your desires at necessarily cause your actions. So if it's your desires at 'cause you're actions, you only need to ask yourself. What calls your desires, and those are going to be external factors extra on prior to yourself. So if the X factors caused causing desire your desires caused your action than you are still an intermediate link in a chain of events. You're not the first mover like on Ribe byu, my brain and body chemistry can cause the desire to eat and cause hunger. But that that caused though that causes determined by biological factors beyond my control, the decision will to act upon those desires is still up to meet on compatible as you are necessarily Causley determine by those things on my view of LeBron freed on the libertarian freedom view. You're not caused by those things on your view. Do you believe that? Someone can choose their desires, or are there certain things that we'd like for example, did I I happen to love. And this is genuinely true I happen to love mint chocolate chip ice cream with whipped cream in hot fudge in hot caramel, goodness. I love I don't know if I chose to love, but to to desire that when I when I want ice cream, it seems as though I just happened to given other factors perhaps unknown to myself. Do you believe that people choose their their desires, not all of them? I I'm fine with saying a lot of our desires and things are causing determined. But note that on libertarian perspective. These things are merely influences are not causes. So if I have libertarian freedom that I must still choose to act or refrain from acting upon my influences. Okay. So if if if the desire does not cause the choice, then what do you mean when you say if if you do say that the will? So is caused by the self. What is it about the self that brings about my choice? If my choice is not determined by desire by other factors will if you're going to answer what presented if you're gonna ask what close the self? And if you're asking given my position than I would in respect for say, you're not understanding my position. Because if I'm the first mover, you cannot ask what came before that Colin Quinn atheists. Ask will what caused God? We'll know. He's okay. And what you're saying there. I I knew you were going to say that. But I'm trying. So then I couldn't have said, otherwise if you knew I was gonna say that. So so. Like a trap question. I'm just trying to wrap my head around. What it looks like to just make a choice completely not determined. I guess because because Calvinism I think in these categories, okay? So in one 'cause I wanna wrap this up, and I know John's going to do an after show, and you guys are more than welcome to go over to the after show you want once he gives us the link put it in here. Eric. Here's wanna ask you this question and close with this. Okay. You say that we're the first mover. Correct. Yes. Okay. Do we exist? When we are that first mover. First mover to our will. But the will doesn't exist yet. Does it? We haven't been created. Right. So until God actualize is that world. We don't exist. Therefore, we really are not the first mover. God is the first mover because we don't have a wheel until he actualize is the world. And once he actualize is that world. We do what is selected in that world. Well, when we're talking about first movers. We're talking about first mover relative to what you're talking about. I move a relative to existence. But then you're you're complaining that with I move relative to will. There's a difference there. No, no, I'm not so you so you responsible actually saying I'm saying that we don't have a will it doesn't exist. You can't be the first mover. If you don't have a will. There is no libertarian free will until you I exist. Yes. That's like saying, you can have thoughts to exist. Right. Exactly. So so we're not the first mover. God's the first mover because he determines the world. So you're saying it's not possible for God to be responsible for my nature end. My ability to will without being the one that wills it himself. Say that again, Eric. Are you saying which I don't think so let me just come out and say it, I think this is what you would have to believe. But don't think you believe this. You would have to believe that God is not only responsible for the fact that I have a will in the first place without equally being responsible for the very thing that I will will to happen. I think God can be responsible for the fact that I have a will. But it doesn't mean he's responsible for everything that I will. If what you're saying is true. You would have to concede that in order to be responsible for the fact that I have a will he must equally be responsible for every single thing that I will get her bed. And that's what I reject. Yeah. What do you mean by responsible? Well, his into because we've been on for two hours. And as I said to John we could probably go for another two hours and still not any closer. And I I do want to try to limit do want try to cap the show two hours. Because of the fact that basically we were going to turn this into a podcast, if we end up going longer, we'll go two hours, and have, you know, two shows, but you know, we I I have no problem having Ericsson ally comeback because through I think net Matt needs a longer break. You know? And folks be praying that and his wife folks have come in late. You know, the reason Matt's not here as I told him he really he's moving. He's packing up his house. He's going to be leaving a couple of weeks to move to Arizona. And then what we end up seeing is his wife has had several surgeries. So it it hasn't been easy. And so one we didn't. I just didn't think he needed one more thing to do. He he need. He could spend two hours with his wife. So this this is the thing that let me try to summarize this okay in my understanding of what Eric has been explaining. And I think this is where we end up seeing some things I think it's clear that in this discussion that God is the one that ends up selecting the world. And and once he does we will do. Do what we must do in that world because that's the world that is actual I believe that's what you know, we've been discussing. And and so the the thing that I think is is going to rub against many people 'specially Calvin would be the idea that man is the first mover in God is the first mover. I think we're gonna have big differences there. Now, keep in mind for folks that that may have come in late. Eric said earlier that Molen ISM does not require a belief in a libertarian free will and so much of this discussion has been on the area of libertarian free will and this is something we hear from many Molin, est. But I just want to give the caution as we wrap up. So folks don't think that the own that Mona's requires that because he he was explaining it's not necessary. So. I did want to you know, explain that. So I want I want to wrap up. I wanna thank you know, ally. An Eric I know Kristin came in and there's some others someone came in toward the end here. Gingrich into ask questions Julio Julio. I can't see the name funds to small, but if you guys want to come back next week, we're you know, we continue this. I hope that folks realize a couple of things one you're not gonna just get two hours of this and think you fully understand Mona's. And I think Eric would agree. He's not in his head. Yes. Because this isn't something that just takes two hours to figure out. It takes them study as you're seeing with Eli. And this would be my challenge to folks is take a look at what he is doing. He's trying to understand from from Eric's position. Trying to take the time to make sure he understands the terminology and recognizing. As you heard him say that he's he's having trouble understanding certain things because of his Calvinistic positions. So he's understanding things in his terminology. And he's trying to get out of his presupposition into the presupposition of another. That's something that none enough people do. All right. I will say also there's someone that emailed me. He's in the comments here in YouTube Israel rise. He wants to debate me on whether the African Americans are actually the Israelites. So we may be able to set that up. It is always fun to watch. You know, these fake Hebrew Israelites go down in flames. When they come upon a real Israelite, someone the lighter someone that whose line actually traces back to Levi just saying I would like to see the genealogy chart that you have does. So, you know, produce it that'd be fun. So we may set that up. And see Eric is laughing. We can all agree now, allied, I can all be agreement. So so we'll try to set something like that hopefully soon, and, but I hope that you guys will subscribe to the apologists live podcast. This is it turns into a podcast this will drop tomorrow. So I gotta do a bunch of editing. Basically, what we'll do is edit everything Eric said out, and you know, and you know, I mean, just because late and flowers said that, you know, I'm smart, but Eric smarter. So we gotta edit it out. So that that would never be believed. That's all you know. So. Yeah. But I do wanna let folks know this'll be a podcast as part of the Christian podcast community. And I am amazed. I'm we have not even really opened up or or advertised the the Christian podcast community for having people. Join us yet. And we have like a dozen people in queue waiting to join. And I it's just it's really kind of neat that we got a lot of people that that want to be part of a community of Christian podcasters that would wanna promote one another. And so that's just encouraging do. Subscribe to my podcast. Andrew Rappaport rap report, they there's two of them actually the daily Monday through Friday, two minutes a day. Even eat li- has the attention span for two minutes a day. That's that's I believe it and every day right now what I've been doing is going through a different book of the bible and giving a summary of every book of the bible. There. We have the weekly one Andrew reports rep report that's could be an hour long one. And so that would be a good one to subscribe to this week. This Sunday a plan to discuss I Timothy and Titus on the qualifications of pastors and deacons. So someone asked me if I would address all the qualifications. I'm going to try to do that in one episode. I hope it doesn't go too long. But it'll be short of in this one I know that. So once I get the link from Mr John, which he gave it to me, I will drop it in here for you guys to jump over there and join their. So ally, and Eric d see the the chat here. Where? Okay. So I'll do. Video another link there. Tell you. What what we'll do. Yeah. Yeah. We're video and there's a link that's the hang out for the for the after show if you guys want to continue discussion, you can hit over there, and that that ends up going onto the councils onto actually I think it ends up going onto the apology. The I think it goes onto atomic apologetic YouTube channel, but I will drop the link in to the YouTube as well for folks who want to join continued discussion. So next week. I don't know if we're gonna have met back or maybe we'll have Eric in Eli continue this, and and then maybe seeking Khun jump in earlier and get more questions answered say something real quick Andrew Israel's rose, I'm going to ask you about the word, Ken rain. Oh, man. Look at the acorns never. I just want to let people know that. Eric, and I will be having a discussion tomorrow. And if it's okay with Eric now kind of switching it up because the intention was to talk about Mon isn't, but I think we covered so much here. We're gonna have a discussion on apologetic. We may get into issues of apologetic mythology and things like that. So people can keep there is out for that. I will be posting on my Facebook page reveal the politics. So anyone's interested in that they can look up reveal the politics. Okay, revealed apologetic, Eric, your your ministry, you came up with the very creative name for your ministry. You're you're. He's about as creative as Justin Peters with Justin Peters dot org. But Eric, what's what's the name of your ministry there erica's ministry? Com YouTube slash c slash and as you can see some debates I've done a lot of stuff with ATS and things like that. And excellent job even something side with Matt Dillon tea with David Smalley things like that. A lot of stuff on the soul. Yes. So we end up seeing is basically, he's he lacks creativity. Just couldn't come up with something. Andrew I've watched too. Coming from a hardcore presupposition Eric does an amazing job. Right. So so Eric will see if Eric remember this? But this was from the debate with Matt slick an and David Smalley, and you and I were there for that. Here's a quick from David Smalley when I got up to ask them a question. And then we'll end the show with this. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy. I'm glad I'm debating him. Instead of you.

Eric Eric Matt slick James Mona Andrew Rappaport Facebook basketball Paul John John Google Molin Arizona John Wilkinson Eli Calvin Godley clark Molin ISM Ami
S4-10  Frank Morelli  No Sad Songs  Young Adult Author

Charlotte Readers Podcast

1:04:06 hr | 1 year ago

S4-10 Frank Morelli No Sad Songs Young Adult Author

"Welcome to Charlotte Readers podcast. We're authors give voice to the written words. This is the show where Meat Charlotte area authors. Those visit the coin city and we hear them read their work support for Charlotte readers. PODCAST is provided by Park Road. Books the oldest and only independent Bookstore in Charlotte conveniently located in Park Road Shopping shopping center and by Charlotte Mecklenburg Library a connector of readers leaders and learners with twenty locations and a twenty four hour online presence presence for more information about these book minded sponsors who help authors give voice to their written words. Please visit them online at Park Road. BOOKS DOT COM Tom and see 'em library dot org or drop by the bookstore or any library branch. Today's episode made author. Frank Morelli a middle school teacher. WHO's writing talent? Let Him. You're right as well received debut novel no sad songs but a teenager forced by the death of his parents to look after grandfather suffering severe dementia edition reading discussing no sad songs. Frank Discusses Essay but the death of his grandfather introduces us to the first book in his recently published. Little Great Series Start First the reading from an early chapter in no set songs entitled how to Find Yourself Alone. Host land dissuade is committed to making this podcast worth your time. He's a recovering trial lawyer award. Winning Author Book and Dog Lover Who's laid back style encourages authors to read and talk about their published and emerging urging works. These are the stories that touched the emotions followed by conversations that offer depth and insight into the readings and writing lives of the authors. This show is recorded in the well-equipped podcast video advent co working right here in the Belmont community near Uptown Charlotte you can find links and information about this episode and the show notes that our website Charlotte readers podcast dot com. But enough with the prolong. Let's get to the stories. I'm your host Landis Wade thank you you for listening thank God. My duty was only a one night thing one night just one night. I smacked the plunger and watch the Brown sludge World Pool. It's way down the drain. The bathroom reeked of melon. Scented poop. Not a good candidate for chanels fall line of Perfume. I have to Grandpa out of his swamp and wrapped them in a towel. They just stood there and dripped water on the floor. I'd have to drive them to nasty. I started with his white main shaggy and thin and only partly damp but it was good enough on hand me. I didn't respond just tried to mop as much moisture often as I could before I puked dad's row but do the rest wrestled grandpa to the bathroom like a prisoner of war and lifted him into bed. John fitted the mattress with a clean crisp. Said if she's the only sign that anything out of the ordinary Mary had happened in the room was the faint smell of disinfectant. In the Air I read to Grandpa from Walt Whitman's leaves of grass. We've studied a few passes. Passages and Mrs Alonzo Alonzo Eleventh Grade English class. Everyone thought it sucked. But they don't appreciate good poetry like I do. Call Me Weird. My classmates did GRANDPA's eyelids. drooped shutters I read. I've heard what the talkers were talking. The talk of the beginning and the end but I do not talk at the beginning or the end. Jonah told his parents he probably probably spend the night so he was in the basement. Playing Video Games kid was an addict hours had passed between our madden marathon and FEMA Gatien time. I had to be maybe two. She were three in the morning at that point and the phone rang at two or three in the morning. Nothing good ever comes from a phone ring that our there's never a crazy radio. The host on the other end offering a cash prize out of the blue. There's never one of your teachers. Just getting in touch to cancel the homework assignment. You forgot was due the next day. It's never ever good so my heart did little flip flops. In my chest and GRANDPA's eyes fluttered open or what. I please my hand on his phone to keep them calm. Maybe keep e Com. John John I shouted as the shrill vibrated drew my stomach. Can you get that either. Heard me where it was wrong number because the ringing stopped at once I continued need. Reading from Whitman will never be any perfection than there is now anymore heaven or held in there is now and then I heard footsteps on the stairs in the hall slowly slowly Shuffling Holding Back Gabe. John said with a waiver in his voice. It's the police a jolt of Electrobi- shot up from my feet through my spine burned in my ears. I felt the blood in my face. Every red cell each tiny molecule bubbling and brewing. I saw a hand reach for the phone. Was it mine. You couldn't tell our voice on the other end very official deep monotone gambling left early. Atlantic city expressway sway fell asleep. They were going not coming back forever. Yes forever no sure. They can't be right. This only happens to other people people. Please come to identify the bodies. Yes sir. John's hand on my shoulder warm tears on my cheek alone just me and grams and no no one can protect me. Not even John Frame rarely debut young adult novel. No sad songs. Two thousand eighteen was a two thousand nineteen Jasa quick picks picks for reluctant readers nominee and a vox top hope title fiction and essays appeared numerous publications including the Saturday Evening Post Cobalt Review Philadelphia Stories and Jersey. Devil press the first book and his debut Middle Grade Series. Please return to Norbert M Finkelstein it came out in September two thousand Nineteen Philadelphia Native Frank's life was transformed when he accepted a teaching fellowship. NYC public schools and discover discussed that a lifetime spent eating cafeteria. TATER tots will be a small price to pay for chance to shape. The future continues to split time between the page and the classroom will forever be amazed. At how each enriches the other. Frank now lives in high point. North Carolina with his best friend and use noxious alley cat and two hundred pounds worth of dull Charlotte readers. PODCAST is a member of the twin city. PODCAST network powered by North Carolina for more information. Go to Queen City PODCAST NETWORK DOT COM. Hey Frank welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Landis. Yeah so you're a middle grade teacher Eh. Some people call me slightly insane for doing that but I I would say that. It's probably one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life was well well. I wasn't a person that ever wanted to be a teacher. I watched my mother teach for about twenty years and I saw how difficult it was and how little money she made so one of the things that I wanted to do. Have a job that made more money and I told everybody I become a doctor because you know what Dr in their family forgot about the part. We're I'm afraid of blood and I just kind of fell into teaching by chance at a point in my life where I didn't really know what direction I wanted to go into and New York City public schools schools desperately need a teacher so I decided I would just give it a try and just being in the classroom first of all time to to get my thoughts serving towards writing but at the same time it gave me inspiration because every single day you come in contact with the type of readers that you're writing books for and you get a chance to see what kinds of things interest um you get a chance to see what kinds of things we're gonNA problems. They have in their lives and I just thought that it really added to the stories that I was always kind of thinking in my head. Did you cook. The middle school would have middle school. Picky that's a great question. When I when I joined a New York City public schools at the end there wasn't really a choice of either going to be middle school or high school and it Kinda just threw you into the school where they needed you? Most and I wound up in teaching eighth grade and I remember when they told me that I thought to myself. Oh my goodness because I've heard so many horror stories about how terrible what is teach middle grade level students and how the turn to you know monsters at that time of their lives but I found it pretty quickly that that is absolutely the opposite of the truth. At least he's in my in my experience and I just felt like it was a perfect age level for me for one reason. I don't know that I've ever actually progressed. Behind Middle School in my mind and for the reason You get a group of students who are still really eager to learn but at the same time. They're advanced enough on an academic level to go go pretty far into into literature. What subjects do you teach? I teach language arts which is basically a writing class and then I also teach literature which is which is reading. And you says something a moment ago about your readers So you you see your readers as the very the people that you're teaching. It wasn't always like that when I first started writing I I thought that was going to rape for adults in these espionage. Novels stuff And then when I started to really sit down and examine my writing. I realized that that wasn't the kind of rare that I really was. I was trying to be something that I wasn't. I had already been teaching for maybe ten years when I when I decided sided. I was going to start to write young adult and middle great stuff and I just thought to myself what am I doing. I have a group of students in front of me every single day. That are showing me. The types of things means that should be in books today and I think I need to use that. Use My voice and get that out there in the world so it was kind of just fit lockstep for me and my life and so no sad songs. Your protagonist is a high school student and then in the book we're going to talk about that came out of September You're back down into the middle grades right. That's right and I noticed it in your writing First Person No sad songs did you. Did you do that as well. And the other other. I love writing in first person. I'm the type of person that likes kind of stand around in somebody else's shoes and kind of walk around in learn their experiences one of the reasons why decided to use first person in no sad songs because I wanted to kind of live the life of this youth caregiver that I almost had the unfortunate opportunity to become when I was a teenager but I had my my parents around and kind of protect me there and just kind of wanted to live that that life so being able to write in the first person allowed me to kind of channel my own experiences through the character and and and then pick up on that character's experiences as well so I I kind of liked to read in first person. I don't have a rule against writing and other points of view but it just feels like for this this this particular age or both Middle Grade and young adult they respond. Really readers responded really well to hearing the voice of the actual character and feeling like they're actually on the page with uh-huh and there's a lot of humor Embedded within this poignant story in and the conversations that this protagonist tagging says in his head and with others. But it's very much high school and I'm sure this book as well as is Middle School so you hear that in the classroom you take notes about was when you're passing down the hallway or do you just remember from from your days. All of that is true. I think that first of all humor is is basically a major part of my life. I don't think I'd do anything or take anything very seriously. And it's by design part of that is from my experience dealing with with Alzheimer's in my life and knowing that you know when you're in a situation where where things seem dire sometimes the only way to get through it is through humor and through laughing being able to take the small moments and kind of laugh about them and got a raise your spirits in my classroom room yeah. I'm constantly cracking jokes myself. I think I might be the biggest class clown in the class. which which might be a problem? I guess but I like to. If you're trying to keep I like to bring humor into into stories that have a serious a serious bent to them because I think that that is kind of how human beings get through. Those difficult difficult times is that we're we're able to laugh at things that normally would be pretty dire in your life but then you you can wind up getting through it by seeing heart parts of it are you are you do you become. Are there moments in your classroom. You taste language arts and and riding where you're inspired with. These young young kids writing others others constantly times when I read a story that we do a lot of creative writing my class and constantly town I read a story and I thought I think to myself. I really wish I would have thought the press by a student WHO's twelve or thirteen years old putting these putting these sentences together and these were together. That are just so poetic and I think back to myself when when I was thirteen or fourteen years old and definitely could not do that so yeah. I'm I'm inspired by seeing the progress that my students make and then I think he kind of pushes me to want to do even even better with my craft. Well no sad songs as I said it. It's a story That has humor in it but also it's it's a story that has a serious side as well and you say that some of that Came from your own experiences in life. Talk about that when I was a teenager about fourteen years old. My grandfather was diagnosed with pick's disease. which is a form of dementia and At first we didn't really notice it it or we notice small changes in him. I don't think we really wanted to accept what was happening But when he got the diagnosis it all became real and pretty quickly and we started to see decline in his memory in his ability to socialize with people and he lived in Philadelphia at the time. When when my parents I live in South Jersey and they had to move into South Jersey to stay in a smaller apartment near near their house so that they can kind of keep an eye on them and as time a- as time passed the He continued to decline and eventually he was basically living in my parents house where they were primary caregivers so I basically watch them kind of put their lives on hold collectively and take care of my grandfather. who was the man who had raised my father and now the kind of the role reversal is taking taking place? Now thank you said to me. We were talking before the podcast that you felt a little guilty but how you behaved at a young age compared to this character that you wished you could've had the fortitude that the character no sad songs has some level gable escudo my protagonists like a do over from my last name again gate scrupulous Gouda come from Philly that actually means the shield which which is a. I don't think anybody's ever really asked me. What what his name means? But the last name means the shield and I think that part of his his character in the book is that he's protecting loans but Yeah I I definitely was not gablers Gouda when I was this is age I probably a lot. More selfish sometimes looked at the responsibilities that my parents had as taking time. I'm away from our our entire family live Don't get me wrong. I was extremely upset and sad about what was going going with my grandfather but at the same time I was young enough to like have I have my own desires and once I wanted to go in certain directions and I just don't think that as a youth caregiver I would have made a very good one so I wanted to write this book so so that I could kind of live through it again. See what it would have been like if I didn't have my parents around there to cushion the blow for me and so frank you wrote the piece Reflecting on your grandfather called requiem right and just to give missile feel for what was in your mind at the time. You're going to read the first paragraph in the last couple of paragraphs this piece. Yeah just just to just to set it up a little little further when I wrote this I wrote after I had written sad songs when and this kind of feeling was still kind of fresh with me and I wrote it about when my grandfather grandfather actually finally passed away and the feeling that I had left leftovers and when we finally lost him there was no pouring out of is like when my brother called me and my dorm room and blurted out sparky got hit by a car before setting even saying though when we lost him. I didn't buckle against the wall and feel the sharp edges of dry cinderblock scratched is to link of my my back like when I got the phone call in my classroom. That said she'd been in an accident and she was gone and she'd never sit across from her desk. Share Combo and listen to me drone on about nouns downs and verbs and figurative language when we lost him when the news finally spread from my mother's lips trailed through miles of telephone cable through the Y.. Record into the receiver fever and burrowed deep down in my consciousness. When I finally accepted he was gone forever and never coming back? It occurred to me. I didn't feel anything at all. or at least in my estimation estimation not what I was supposed to feel and then I walked up the front steps of my parents house like done a million times and my eighteen years of residents there but it felt different this time empty drained of life still and we talked about the next day's funeral arrangements and flowers and prayer cards the hours of the viewing and everything that meant absolutely nothing in the life of my grandfather and his real life. The one he actually lived. And then we watch letterman until my father's there's eyelids drooped and he made his way upstairs to sleep for the final time before he laid his own father to rest forever. And that's when I felt the first worth of sadness. Roll down one of my cheeks and then the other until the tears down my mother's shoulders and the sobs wrack my body and my mother's long red nails may trails up my spine in her arms. Held me closer. Then I think they'd ever had before that's been the relief and the guilt and the feelings of alienation all exploded in a single detonation. And I realized that my grandfather had finally become my grandfather again. Even if I'd never be able to see him touch him or hear his voice for the rest of my life. It's also when I realized there was only one way to be Alzheimer's and without a doubt the battle was destined to culminate in a single swirling Maelstrom of guilt relief and despair and happiness. To if you happen to be strong enough to allows memories the real memory to shine through the store so franken this piece that you start out You say Diane that first paragraph that. You didn't know exactly how you supposed to feel and that you weren't really connecting emotionally. What was going on? Is that because the illness had gone over such a long time. Yes mm-hmm Alzheimer's is the kind of thing that you know. A person can be battling it for years and years my grandfather had it for about eight years and it takes a real toll on when you search really beat you down you start to become desensitized to it. A little bit I can remember feeling towards the end of my grandfather's life like why can't they just be some mercy for him and you know. Obviously the stereotypical way to react to a loved. One's death to break down to be really sad just to Kinda bowling and none of that happened for me. When I found out in fact in the first paragraph I mentioned the time when my brother called me up a couple of months before my grandfather died to tell me that my my one my dogs had died and that you know? Set me off that you know I was. I was crying But but when I found out that my my grandfather that didn't happen I think a lot of the reason for was because I just wanted to just not have to deal with it. Any more did not have to go through the situation of not really knowing who he was or not being himself anymore. It was just sad to watch and part of that was for myself. I didn't watch it but the other part of it was just because I knew it was such a strain streamed on him and he felt like I felt to me like he was trapped inside of his own body and that there's parts of him that wanted to come out and be himself but that he just couldn't do win anymore. So you know when you finally pass away. It was almost like relief but as a as a freshman in college I was Kinda young and dealt with death too many times it just. I just didn't understand that feeling how I how I felt cold about it so I felt like I needed to write about it but you. This piece It really resonated with me because my father died last year and he'd had dementia. It always said look if this ever happened to me. I don't I don't WanNa hang on but the point you make here that if you happen to be strong enough to allow the memories the real memories to shine through the storm then you can find the happiness but also the emotion to find. It happened to me. Sometimes I'll think about things about the way was before he lost some of his his memory and That's one emotion starts to come up. I think at least for me for me too and I also think that's one of the ways that you can restore dignity to a person who had Alzheimer's and fought the battle because if you ever lived through that situation in your life on notice that that it's really hard to to retain that person's dignity they become almost like like a child and a lot of ways and they're just not the person that everybody knows and just being able to go back and remember that person. The way they were thinking thinking about their triumphs is a way to kind of restore that dignity which I think is important for anybody who's involved in in in Alzheimer's kind of situation or cycle all right so let's the kind of transition back. We got a character here. He's dealing with the same emotions. We've just been talking about. He's lost his parents in the saying he's now got a grandfather who's not on a very functional level at this point there. He's having to care for him he's having to go to school Of course early in the book is near to will. Uncle shows is up. And he's going to camp there to supposedly help the protagonist Whatever you might call help being Because he didn't have a job and he's okay. So you've got this young protagonist and he's trying to be very self reliant And he to in this book rights s much like you wrote requiem and he does it for his language arts teacher and even better these in the book along the way get giving us kind of a different look into the the mindset of this individual. Where did that idea come from? The idea came from from first of all me just having this strong love for the personal essay. I think it's this is a great way to express yourself but in the book I felt like there needed to be this connection to who the person that that gramps Gra. His grandfather used to be. Okay so you can kind of see this person in the relationship that that he is built with his grandson from the time his grandson was was like three apples high putting the essays in their allowed me to really show gave the protagonists feelings for his grandfather really visceral level and to allow them to connect what he was seeing now and what. He was noticing from his grandfather that he was losing. But being able to kind of go back and remember that this is still the same person I think. It's part of part of the reason that he's able able to continue going on as the caregiver because it is a struggle and he's only eighteen years old. He's trying to graduate high school. He spent probably at the point of thinking about what he might want to do. After that and you got him stumbling along with interpersonal relationships. He's got a close friend perhaps his only friend and then he's he's trying to make connections Sion's with the popular girls to no avail right. That's right and so you got all these high school. He kind of gave me a nerd. Right I mean he he definitely yes. He's kind of he's kind of this unassuming character that you wouldn't necessarily even notice around your high school but he's a good rider and and and he's also very committed into his grandfather. But there's a sane early on the reason I set up this with the discussion was that you've got a little essay that you put in the book early on where he's is reflecting upon a happy time with his father and his grandfather you know that when the father and the grandfather get the new mit- out and they work it over ever with the linseed oil and they don't know how you did it when you're going to see them in a cup and put a ball there and we even put it in the oven for a minute or two. You know have done that before. Have you done okay so you baseball's a part of what you like to write and think about. I Love Baseball. I think think baseball can get your copay. Do you shouldn't have said that out loud. Philadelphia Phillies at the the sport of baseball. To me is is able to be fit into almost any story. Because I think that it's one of these sports that goes beyond is being sport. It kind of connects families that connects generations. It's one of these sports that until they started using the shift. Recently really never has changed that and and I think it allows people to kind of connect so I just remember being being younger and my grandfather and my father almost similar. Same scene that I I wrote in the book Definitely happened in my life. And I it's just it's just always brings me back to the moment where where I felt like I was part of this. This club and the club happened to be the lineage of my family so I wanted to kind of create the same feeling in no sad songs and showed just how important Gabe his father who who we lost and his grandfather were to each other before his grandfather was diagnosed. Yeah and this is the way you got the title this personal essay number two and Mr. So how do you pronounce the Teacher's name Mastro mass master. A Master Cooler Master Co and the title of this essay is leather and pipe. Tobacco distorts distorts out. You know with the the the glove and what they're doing to kind of work in Don't don't get to keep it clean kid and all these kinds the things and then you get to a part where they've kind of worked glove over and it's time for a catch as they looked so you want to pick it up there. I do GRANDPA wound back and toss the ball. The top half caught the Sonnen gleamed in white. The bottom half was the dark side of the moon. The latest flipped into world. I fought hard to keep myself from jumping out of the way and disappointing GRANDPA. Then I felt leather make contact with leather. The wheat gathered in the pocket. There was a soft snap as my bare hand clamped over the front of the glove. Would you look at that. My grandson's a frigging natural the neck. Willie Mays Dad said the next Willie mays. I often think about moments like these. The ones that feel so light and carefree at the time but the carry with them much heavier insights. It's only in the future after times beating the ever loving crap out of you that you realize what was is actually taking place on a day like that and it reminds me of one of Robert. Frost's most famous poems which also happens to appear in one of my favorite books of all time the outsiders siders I've may have read. Se HINTON's most popular book way back in Middle School. But I will never forget the siege in insight. Johnny K gives the Pony Boy through frost. Words they still ring in my ears. Nature's I green is gold. Her hardest Hue to hold our early leaves a flower but only so an hour then leaf subsides to relief so eden sank degreef so dawn goes down today. Nothing gold can stay in the ballpark my mid that day so many years ago when Ed barely see over the shoulders of a cricket and I squeezed it before it flipped lifelessly to the grass is held onto more than just the ball. I had held that golden my hand. The hardest you uh-huh and gramps and dad recognize it immediately for they at once held the same hue in their own hands their appreciation for the gift that had once been mysteriously stolen from them. Their youth breath was the catalyst for all smiles and laughter. These two produced in my honor but for them that first youthful hugh is far behind them just a distant blip that wouldn't even register Mr on satellite image for them dawn long ago going down today and the only gold they see again would exist in DNA. They pass along to me these these days. I'm not sure I possessed the hugh anymore. I'm eighteen years old and for me. The light is already starting to fade. But I'm lucky for gramps in for that men men who youth and energy wants injected Jilts electrcity into anything they touched the flame has already been extinguished and nothing they are I or even God could do whatever change that fact. So He's got a nice sane. That turned very introspective here. That's what I love about the personal essays that you can kind of create that scene and then go right into into the characters head and pluck out those feelings that are being created from his memory and you also get a chance to see how his his interactions with his grandfather made a huge impact on his life. All right well listeners. When we come back we're going to have Another reading from no sad songs. We're going to do the writing life segment We're GONNA talk a little bit about The book that The Middle Grade Series Book that came out and September. So stay with us. Hey listeners I'm here with Kevin Jerus- he's the mastermind on Edmund Co working row. Hang out and do this podcast and Kevin how you done that. I've been all right land. We had a big big day. We were coming up and just shortly on the fourth anniversary of Ed Miko or right yes at that and this place is Tell people are for younger every time I walk in here. You've got this This vibe here the stock okay. Sure it's really hard to describe. It isn't just feel it but I think a combination of we have hired are curator so we have local art artwork that gets swapped out on the walls. Every three months A lot of the furniture our members are working on every day's custom fabricated by folks in Carolina We have music going of a certain tone own volume and it's the way the space laid out the way. The furniture is way offices are way the meeting rooms all. It's all very intentional. Yeah you got you gotTA Open Space for people who want to have kind kind of flex membership and then you get off the glass walls for people that want to close the door and then you get them together you get the sort of the flex people in the office is people together with events right. Yeah we do all kinds of programming as well so every day that week. There's something going on whether you're going after dollar tacos on Tuesdays Fridays. We're going to tech talks that that we do every other month. There's something for everyone and if you WanNa take a break we'll make it easy for you to connect but it is about how in a space to get your work done right and feel good about it. You're doing it so three unique features as you care about the workings talk should feel like no brainer. But we do actually care about our members a lot of spaces this is. You're just another number in the pot of revenue so we WANNA know. How can we help you be more productive? How can we help you grow? Hukou help you collaborate. What do you need help promoting your events? Do you want to connect with someone. What can we do? You have ideas your feedback of issues. We'll take all use it. Do things with it helped me run the wireless printer. You've helped me get here. Get Corner Stadia. Yeah you do things like that. You help the old members you know technology anyone and everyone. We will help even even the organs. Kevin Look Chemo. Very were four. Years is a huge accomplishment. You're proud thank you very much. Our team is really doing everything here. Charlotte readers podcast and host. Landis Wade are grateful all to you for listening to this show. If you like the show please leave a short written review on Apple podcasts. Also known as Itunes or the podcast platform of your choice because your review helps author share their stories with more listeners. Thank you for your support. We're back with Frank Morelli author So sad song and also please return to Norbert and think stain. Let's let's move frank to sort of theme of the book here. Promise keeping a promise the same to kind of go throughout the the book this character gave against all these obstacles and he feels like he's keeping what kind of promises he well early. On in the book he talks about how his his father had made a promise. Promise himself that he would never allow his own father. Who was the grandfather to wind up in a facility and that he wanted to be able to be as caregiver until at the end and you know Gabe loses his bother early on in the story and when when that happens gave kind of takes that promise onto himself? It's kind of an unspoken promise that he's taking he hasn't actually made the promise with anybody else except for himself but he wants to live up to what his father would have and I think part of that is because he never really gets a chance to mourn in his parents the loss of his parents as soon as he loses them. He's thrust into this situation where he's taking care of his grandfather and basically his uncle to any still trying to make his way through school and it just everything's kind of swirling around him so I feel like the the promise that he's trying to keep to make sure that he's the person that takes care of his grandfather till the end. It is a an unrealistic promise that he makes himself but it's one that keeps him kinda connected to his parents into. His father is trying to honor his father. Exactly taping this promise but in doing so in trying to keep this promise in the face of everything going on around him. It affects his personal relationships with others. Right it does and and even beyond that affects his his life and maybe even puts his life in jeopardy because all of the tasks that are involved in being a caregiver combined with all the other tasks in his life are too much for him and he. I don't think he was expecting how difficult it was going to be to take care of person who he's known his whole life So he winds up getting himself into a little bit of pickle and he gets himself in a several jam. So I'm one of the James gets into was He's he's out doing something on his bicycle when his grandfather takes the car his car and actually hits a young child doesn't kill. Kill the child but the child and there's a search by the police to try to find out who did it in this car parked in the garage and he ends up taking the fall for his a father or at least try to they try. He's trying to take the fall for his grandfather. And the police aren't necessarily want to believe him based on their investigation but they have no choice when he confesses as right at the end up in court and his friends are trying to talk him out of it and he's trying to tell US France to mother and business exactly a lot of this is that he wants to try to take all these responsibilities upon itself and I think a lot of people in the world. Try to do that but it's again. It's an unrealistic charged for anybody to do anything without the help others especially your closest friends so he winds up in the courtroom and there is a pretty traumatic young adult style courtroom drama aw that occurs Were gave takes the stand and his His friends burst into the courtroom. Yeah they burst in the core at the time of the judge is about two years in federal prison death right right all right you want to pick it up where the judge says. He's inclined to hear out to to his friend. WHO's stormed into the Koran? Your Mr Khuda. I'm inclined to hear this out. The crypt keeper says approach. The stand. I don't even remember walking from from my chair to the witness box but suddenly I'm standing up there with my hand on a book. Swearing a finally. Tell the Damn Truth. And then John Takes the baton from Sofia and pounces on me for my ass is even touching wood. Litigation style proves to be much less measured than Sofia's. You didn't hit that kid did you. He shouts as if he was starring in the movie. A few good men. I don't respond respond. I'm completely startled. John Seems like he's not going to give me a chance to say a word. He never drove the car. That day did you. You're not the one responsible are you. You're just covering gave you stupid freaking. You're covering their streams of tears running down his cheeks and for some reason. I feel the same sting encroach at the corner of my eyelids. My throat feels like it's coated in molasses wallpapered with with cotton balls. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. There's no under rescue me from this moment. So I just stare air down gramps I think about how much I love him and dad and mom and even nick I think about how I do anything literally anything to protect them and then the strangest thing happens. Grams opens his eyes wide and he looks at me. I mean he really looks at me the way you used to baseball games. And when I fall off my bike and skin my knees he's and he wiped them down with a cool cloth and slather. A bunch of neo spun on the wind. He looks at me with all the recognition in the world. And he says keep your nose clean kid please keep it clean and there's nothing more I can do for him. I know it now. He knows it. Nick knows it and now entire courtroom full of strangers knows it. I'm not guilty. I say to the table Top. Someone else was driving the car. Graham sits at the table still looking at me with the is. He had ten years ago with gentle smile. That makes makes me feel at least for a moment like a little kid again so gave is willing to commit perjury Take the fall for his grandfather Because he's afraid of what's going to happen whose grandfather they put in in prison or an institution because he's sure that they can't care for him the way he can care for exactly and I think again it goes back to that promise that he made to himself through his father that he just wants to live up to and he knows that this will be the last chance for him to kind of keep that going. He's willing to put himself in danger singer and in jail which is not the best decision the world just to to keep that connection. Unless there's lest you think you know sorta thanks turned out. This is nothing in the book. Some and things unfold Some some relationships dissolve and the question is will they come back together. And what's going to happen to gramps Epson. What's going to happen to gave for what he did in court and everything's going around in his head and I guess fright you were thinking about this book for a while before you read it now? What is it mm-hmm that you hope your audience will take away most from this book there so many things that I think that I want them to take away from it I guess I'll pick two two things overall main thing I wanted to take away from. It is an understanding that Alzheimer's and caregiving overall. There's something that's probably going to become more and more prevalent in everybody's lives as as we go forward if you look at some of the statistics out from Alzheimer's Association for example so I wanted to the people people to understand just how difficult it is to be a caregiver and how it's important for you to seek out support and if you don't have that support your probably family fighting a losing battle. You're fighting a losing battle anyway when you're dealing with Alzheimer's but you can make things a lot better for everybody. If you accept help from others and then I guess that leads into the second thing I want people to take and that is that your friends are probably your friends and your family are probably the most important things that exist in your life. They are there when when you do wrong when you do things that you didn't you're not proud of they're still there and learns that over the course of this book where he doesn't really want to accept help from from the people that are around him he wants to kind of go it alone? He wants to keep them out of it but when he realizes that he needs to have them in their lot in his life there and and even when he doesn't want them to be there they're still there so what people are just kind of readers take that lesson from it and just understand that you need to fall back on the support that you have having your life you mentioned how this is gonNA affect a lot of lives in the future we had on the show and campanella who wrote her memoir Mother mother who lost and found she's part of the all authors community that you're now part with this no sad songs but you took it from a different approach that she you did and there are a lot of other authors out there writing about their experiences with family members who have dementia who are taking even different approaches to it. What do you you think? What do you think the value lies in both for the author and the reader and telling these stories while just to speak about all's authors and their collection of over two hundred different books that have in their library is a great resource But basically provide an opportunity for people who are going through an Alzheimer's journey to basically understand that there are other people out there sharing the same experiences I know that when I was watching my parents care care for my grandfather. There are things that happen that I thought this is. This is the only place on earth where this is happening. If I would have had a place to go or something to read where I was able to see that that other people were also going through just that feeling it made me feel a lot better about it. Just that knowledge so I I feel like just being able to speak your mind and talk and share. Share your story with other people out there who are going through. The same situation is is is value in itself and of course then there's other authors out there like an and unlike other authors in in the oils authors group that are writing books that are more more like manuals in ways that you can kinda use tips to kind of effectively to help your life. This this book no sad songs I think is effective just because it helps you to understand the feelings and the emotions behind it can connect connect with with some of the things that my protagonist is feeling even even when he feels kind of selfish about things or when he's when he's when he's not necessarily happy about being a caregiver. Those Zor kind of feelings that I think it's important for other people out there to realize that they exist and it's okay to have them all right. Well that's good transition here we're gonNA talk about the writing life for a minute it you've been a writer for. You're not that old. I've been I've been writing throbbing since I was about twenty years old and forty pretty down about twenty years. We started doing journalism writing for newspapers And I guess I've been writing fiction and short stories for about ten or fifteen years in which medium do do you prefer. I definitely prefer writing fiction over journalism hand and I used to love writing short stories But ever since I started started writing. Lo long form I I don't think I'll even go back and write another short story. I just I just love writing books. I love being able to put chapters together and think about about innovative ways to kind of tight stories together and create structures that nobody's ever done before we're now we're talking about routine sometimes in the segment As a middle school the teacher. Where do you find time for a routine? If you even have one you have routine I definitely do I. Obviously when I'm at school teaching that's really all I have time for their so I try to carve out time in the mornings Before I go to go to work I write for about an hour. Usually it's early. It's pretty early in my classes. Start at eight. Am Am so probably sitting there writing at like six five six in the morning and then a Lotta Times. What usually happens when I wake up in time to do that is that I want to doing at night after After I get back from from work and I put it in a couple of hours and then of course this summer is like my God sent. So I've spent pretty much every waking minute the summer writing whatever I can to get as much setup for for the school year as I possibly can which provided in part to me he talked about living hotpoint with your best friend and Muse are those the same they are the same and who is the her name is Alex We have we met in New York City. And we've been together for seventeen years as we never got married. But we basically married and she's actually the illustrator of please return in Auburn Finkelstein. Okay good and and so. How does she serve as your muse? Usually the muse hangs out in the in the cloud somewhere. Yeah he's a more hands on news I think she does she read. Did your work always raise my work. We oftentimes have brainstorming sessions. A lot of the ideas that come up with our ideas that I invented and then we talk about them and she she gives me other pathways and I decide to change. It mean way that she I think she helps me is that she believed in me from the beginning when she first the very first time we met we talked about writing. We talked about writing books together and from that moment she believed in my ability to do it and actually get books out there in the world which I never had met anyone else who had actually had that belief in me so just from that standpoint alone I mean she's been pride the best thing that's ever happened to me so we'll give you the most pleasure about writing I love there's so many different aspects of There's too I love the most. I love planning out a story and putting together a massive outline all the little events that are going to happen trying to figure out how the story is going to be stitched together and then before actually actually having written it just being able to sit there and hold my hand know that this is an idea that I'm going to bring to life And then writing that last word is such a great feeling ailing. You liked the feel. It's such a feeling of accomplishment after you've written seventy eighty thousand words before you have to write a five more times. That's exactly right. Yeah so who are your influencers in this riding life of yours well I would. I would have to go back to some authors that I've read red and say that I love Reading Hemingway and I love reading hardly an se hidden just like their style. They kind of always connect into like that are the same kind of readers that I'm trying to connect to so they have a lot of influence just from a writing standpoint but then there's so many other authors that are that are current the authors that I that have influenced me I would say I would say the authors cabanillas definitely at the top of that list Just passion for for Alzheimer's you know research and and and support is just amazing and I would also say that I probably look at works by People like Amber Smith Myth who's also a Charlotte area author. She's part of the season she she is and she She's a phenomenal author. Jennifer Navy is another one she She actually is the blurb this on the front cover of no sad songs I just love watching. How authors like that interact with our readers? They're always available. They answer every person that sends it tweeted them. It's really not easy Z.. To do that when you have when Your New York Times bestselling author but they show me the author that I hope to be one day. So what was the first time you feel like you. You call yourself a writer. I'm still trying to work on that. I think it's funny introduce yourself. It's middle school teacher. It's kind of influx. I think a lot of time I feel like I'm a writer and other times I feel like I'm just muddling around like other writers. Probably feel but I I guess when when the cover was finally revealed for no sad songs and had my name on the front. That's when it really hit home that I was going to be going out there on the road and talking to readers having news agencies Konak interview me When those things started happening that's when I started to feel like? Yeah this is my life is my pathway. Also said here looking at you as we talk and your baseball hat and your enthusiasm for this. I can see many years ahead of you sitting in the chair writing some interesting stories And you're you're smiling when you do it. So how do you plan to balance you know teaching and writing people. Ask Me that all the time colleagues and minor like well when you're going to give up the teaching thing just go full into writing and I did actually a couple years ago. Take a year off of teaching and and during that time I wrote no sad songs and kind of plant a lot of it out and it was helpful. It was really great but at the same time I really missed being in the classroom The energy level. Yeah and I feel like I had. I actually had more discipline in terms of like creating a process and making sure that I wrote every day when I was in the classroom so I feel I feel like I have it down. I've been teaching for seventeen years and writing for almost that entire amount of time or actually longer than that amount of time and by this point in my career. I have really a good process that I use to keep myself balanced. So as long as you know if my headmaster's listening right now as long as they don't make me teach twenty classes. I should be all right. Yeah so In addition to kids Throw spitballs in your class. What else interferes with your writing Watching Shing sports probably interferes with my writing lot. oftentimes if if my team's happen to be you know in the playoffs or even if they're just playing a meaningless game I'm usually sitting there trying to watch it lately. None of my teams doing that. Great so I've been writing a lot of but other than that. I mean I. I'm pretty. I'm pretty disciplined. I love writing. I feel like it's one of my. It's not only a profession for me but it's also pastime so I kind of just enjoy sitting down with the glass eliminated just writing all day long and then having a chance to read what I wrote to somebody else. That's that's just one of my favorite things in life one of the things. I think you mentioned to me which I think is important. Portent for riders to sort of get their heads around his finding out. What is you know what area They need to be riding in and you talked about that earlier on the podcast here but how you were thinking about writing this and that and the other sometimes do you think writers spread themselves itself too thin rather than trying to find you know the nucleus of where they should be doubt definitely and and I I. I've been a cult of that myself. I like I mentioned earlier. I I started writing mostly stories for adults and they were all over the place stories about you know. Baseball teams had ghosts on them. All kinds of crazy things that were that were meant for adults but it just wasn't my voice and I think that's that's when you need to what you need to think about if you're if you're getting ready to get into writing is what what voice do you have. And who will that connect to and for me. It just was a natural fit since get up in front of a classroom of middle middle school students every single day. Foul Riding Life. Question here but You write for these middle schoolers. What are they reading your books on their phones or something? Well I I would say yes reading your books. They are a the first day for extra credit or I that I walked into my classroom and there were four or five of my as soon as reading no sets was definitely a trip Yeah but they do. They read them all. They read a lot of electronic books. I can't really do do that myself. I need to have it in my hand the paper and turned the pages but You know whatever whatever it gets people reading great. Let's let's shift left Now to the to the book. That's great book came out of September. We're actually recording this before September. So I haven't seen the whole book yet but it it's out now. Oh you know when when this has been released to the public Tell us about the title. It's called Please return to Norbert Finkelstein basically the book look itself is. Where does that name very long story? But I will tell it here when I wrote the book I wrote the book because because I needed an escape and the escape is was that Alex and I we we we We had adopted a dog. We adopt a lot of the animals and animals in from the shelters. The first dog that we adopted and We had he was six years old when we adopted his name is Mike dedicated the book to them and we had him for three years. We'll be when we adopted him. He had like this little lump on his back and the doctor said all his nothing in three years past and it wound up turning out to be something and we by by the time we figured out what was wrong with them. There was nothing that they could really do. So we just kind of were just just kind of enjoying having Mike and our lives like the last week or two of his of his life and we always used to call him Stein for some reason I was like a nickname that we made up for him. So we we wound up creating creating this character normative Finkelstein because we wanted to just write something takes away from this like bad feeling of the fact that we're GONNA lose one of our best friends and we literally just talk about ideas I would. I would write entries for this journal that this this teacher is writing and then we just read them. Read them to Mike even though he probably wasn't listening and made us feel a lot better and it just turned out that this name Finkelstein character one of just being so much like our dog in that he's kind of this character that on the outside is very soft oft end gets pushed around a little bit. Everybody Kinda likes them but at the same time people take advantage of him so he's a teacher is a teacher. This is not. There's on you and the sky right now. It's not as much of me in this guy through might have been an some other character. We gotta tell the listeners a little bit about Norbert and Finkelstein and and the cover over here too so he's he's struggling like sixth grade language arts but what's the secret secret is that he is he is a moon he's moonlighting as a professional wrestler and I wouldn't really call it professionally. There's semi professional wrestling that he does. He doesn't really want any of its students and know about it so increased disguise guys but he loses his journal. He Loses Journal. All this information is in his journal. That is right and you. The reader happened to have found this journal or somebody has found the journal. And you're reading along with him and you're finding out all this different stuff about his life. You're finding out that he also. He is facing the same problems that his that his own students are facing co workers of his kind of bully. Ask get them to do things that they want him to do he. He doesn't really Garner a lot of respect. He doesn't really have his life together and one of the main things that he's doing he wants to. He wants to be able to send his mom on vacation and in order to do that he needs to win a lot of wrestling matches. He's not the greatest wrestler in the world. But he start. He learns as the book goes on here. He creates a pretty hilarious wrestling identity. That's based upon his middle name. which is Mortimer Mer and he His wrestling identity as the mortician and he dresses up in this mortician outfit. So you've got on the cover here. This covered actually looks like it could be a journal. It does and it's got a little sticker on the front. Please return to normal stain. And there's some knowledge drawn. It looks like it could be a mask. The wrestler would put on it is it is a is a Lucci. Libra mask worn by Mexican wrestlers. Lose your doors. And it's meant to keep people's identities concealed which is actually a pretty big part of the book the idea of being being able to find your own identity and figure out who you are what you're good at. Well let's give our listeners. A little flavor for this book and you're going to read an entry The state of Friday September. The twenty eighth this is actually the opening entry of of of the book and of the series because there is a second one that is scheduled to come out in February of twenty twenty. So this is the first century is where you pick up his story. Friday September twenty eighth. If you're reading this you can assume a very large man is in a state of panic. There's a good chance this man. His scour the streets of In Search of Lost Journal. Promise you won't call it a diary. And now he's terrified. Someone will rifle through the pages and snoop on his private thoughts. Can't you just picture the poor. You're guy he's wearing his bathrobe. Pair fluffy slippers covered in grease from stumbling around the streets in the dark is faces covered patchy stubble from missing a few days of shaving and his eyes is our droopy and bloodshot from lack of sleep. Let's go ahead and assume the large man I speak of is Norbert M Finkelstein and at the writer of this very journal which you now hold happens to go by the same name. And let's assume this Finkelstein character is a private and secretive young man who can't bear the thought of another human being invading his thoughts. It's not too late for you to do the right thing. You turn back. Respect the man's privacy and return his journalists quickly as you can without turning even one more page or at the very least bury it deep in your backyard so no the human will ever lay eyes on it again still reading now. Why would you wanna go into something like that? What good does it do you to know? A guy's personal secrets things. He wouldn't even tell his own mother. How did it help you to see through the eyes of some out of touch adult like Norbert Finkelstein I mean other than learning guys true feelings I mean deep down and not quite polite feelings about some of the most powerful and important people in all of maple or at least at Napleton middle school? I see you're not turning back. You're doing quite the opposite but I guess I can't hold it against you come to think of it. If I found an old journal lying in the street just begging to be read. I probably do the same thing as you. Curiosity acidy is a worthy opponent. Just keep in mind. I never wrote in a journal before. So don't hold it against me. If I wind up doing a bunch of complaining who knows I may never make pass this first century. Because it's not as it writing in his stupid noble Saab any of my problems. Just consider yourself warned if you happen to find this treasure chest of my thoughts and you think you're cute for even reading one more chroma word of the stuff creep all right. It seems like Norbert has little middle school in him too. He definitely does and one of the things that people ask me about when when I was writing this book as you how are you going can have an adult narrator for a middle grade book. That's not really something that that people have done in the past and I said well I'm going to do it. And the reason for it was because I felt like I wanted to see to Lau my readers to see that you know. You're not alone in having some of these problems adults also still face these problems. I remember when I first started teaching my first year and I didn't have any have it together and a lot of my students to help me out along the way and helped me learn while I was teaching so I just wanted to Kinda create this alternative kind of narrator that you don't usually see in the middle grade writing even though he does hold a lot of middle great specs. I noticed that when you're reading this this first reading is in second person. Listen I mean you're addressing it to the reader that's right that's right now. Do you continue throughout the book or do you shift first person. Or how do you do that for the most part he doesn't he doesn't break the the wall. I guess you could say if you were an actor. He doesn't break that fourth wall too often but he does sometimes speak directly to you as the reader reader. As if you're you're you must have found this. And there's there's a reason why you have it in your hands recalls mcrib. That's right that's right and when you get into later on on the series that same kind of thing continues to happen. I don't want to give away too much about the decks book which I'm how I'm currently working on right now but I will say this it. It has a completely different narrators. The character okay. So did it feel like this work for you to narrate through the teacher's perspective. It really did I first of all I love epistolary novels that are put together as either like books of letters or books like that are meant to be like journals because they feel real relics that you're pulling from that character's life life so it just felt real to hold it into holding in your hand and read what he wrote in his in his own private PRI- in the privacy of his own home so and for me being a a teacher. It made it. It made it easy to kind of put myself into the character but at the same time I still needed to create this character that had a lot of middle grade aspects to them and and had similar problems to the teachers that I'm sorry to the students that he was teaching and the publisher was Well she's done a good job with it Alexandra. Sandra who's publishing was fine with you. Bring not only the main script but the covers will. That's she did not she. Actually the publisher They have a designer on staff that created that act cover Alex She actually has done the illustrations that are inside the book illustrations. So so you got illustrations throughout the book. That's right pictures characters and they are quite hilarious as there are so many different crazy wrestling wrestling identities fight fight against a really fun book definitely deals with with the idea of bullying and how you can kind of that also about being able to find your own police police in life and being proud of what you can do but it's fun and it's mostly just kind of one of these books that when you finish reading it and you could probably early finished reading it in one in one sitting. You're probably going to have a smile on your face and a bunch of times. Well I did when I read said songs. And I'll I'll look forward to reading about Mister Mr Finkelstein and how he gets out of this problem with the kids reading his journal tell us where Where we found the books you could find online? You could find either book on Amazon Barnes and Noble Indie Band In India bound. Just everyone knows it. That's where you can get it through the independent bookstores. That's right and then if bookstores can order the book for you to I portrait books and other bookstores. And that's right and you might even be able to just walk into Parker of books and find some some of the books in there as well or any of the indie bookstore but you you can definitely order through them some barnes and nobles might also have it physical copies of it out there. We have a website. I do Frank Morelli Rights Dot Com all right. So what do you tell the Philly friends about the cups. Get back well. I'm going to tell them that. Phil Philadelphia was dirty already. I you know I stopped wearing Philadelphia hats because I kind of superstitious about my teams and I noticed that whenever I was wearing a any Philadelphia team that whatever team it was that I was wearing. They were not doing very well so I started wearing team. I started wearing hats of teams that I kind of knew I needed talk. Just got over that curse in trying to come back at least. That's what I'm going with the heat from all those people who philly. Thanks so much for coming on the shows on June would renew book and look forward to to the others. I appreciate you having me. Land a snack you well. That's it for today. Another author giving voice to the words next week's episode. We have Tim rat heart. Tim is the author of Jesus Brother James and no this is not a book about now. Jesus real brother James. There's a character in the book who was Nanan out priest who befriends a man who can look the part of Jesus brother James. The priests passes is the man. Is the Messiah brother to another man who has lost the will to live and this leads to a quest by four characters to find meaning in their lives with the help the mysterious religious looking man who speaks only Aramaic conditioner reading and discussing the book. Tim Discusses Short Film Work and we listen to a few scenes from loose films for periodic updates about the show and upcoming authors. Please sign up for the PODCAST email list at

Alzheimer Frank Morelli Charlotte baseball Middle School John John I New York City Landis Wade North Carolina GRANDPA Walt Whitman school teacher Philadelphia Kevin Jerus writer Park Road Gabe Ed Miko Jonah Norbert M Finkelstein
Two Stents

Slate's Political Gabfest

1:07:09 hr | 8 months ago

Two Stents

"This episode of the gabfest contains explicit language. Hello and welcome to the Slate Political Gabfest for February twentieth. Twenty twenty two stints edition. I am David Watts. Zero stands at the moment trump to thumb. I'm in Washington. Dc joining me from new haven from the campus of Yale University. Is Emily Basilan of New York Times magazine? Emily not going to ask you. How many stents you have I could use some stance Talib that. No I hope not. No no stands for emily. I feel like I started no of course this week. I'm just having a hard week at work. But guess now it I don't need any stance true thank you inserting though dense just just caffeine and wishes people send good wishes that you That no of course was from John Dickerson of CBS's sixty minutes from New York. Hello John Hi I'm not GONNA ask. How many stints you have or how long ago you got them. Put in No I don't have any but I'm anyway anyway. On today's Gabfest. The extraordinary debate that livened up the Democratic primary. What is going on and his Bernie Sanders about to run away with it and is Michael Bloomberg. Dunn's Oh already then the president obscene pardons of rich white people and his general efforts to warp American justice than we are joined by the authors of very stateful genius to discuss their alarming book about the trump presidency. Plus of course. We'll have cocktail chatter last night. What a debate man. The debates earlier in the Democratic presidential campaign have been kind of last night had it all it had it was spent. Tastic can I just say the year description of them as Juan is still one that really just put the finger right on it Including the fever man but it was great it was like finally okay and you know what? I think John. Maybe you tweeted this this idea that. Oh if you have these contentious debates it endangers you for the general election. No has nothing to do with it. Have the great debates fight it out like really go after each other? The general election will take care of itself. It doesn't matter that has nothing to do with it. You want people to get fired up enthusiastic and my goodness man club. Hr going after mayor. Pete beat mayor peak going after Bernie. Sanders everybody going after Bloomberg Elizabeth Warren killing. I mean just committing homicide after homicide on the debate stage. It was it was great. Did you get a chance to watch it? I hope you have to wash it because it really was. It was worth it. I did watch part of it. I agreed that it was spicy. I definitely wish so. Let's talk. Let's start with Michael Bloomberg. My dear Michael Bloomberg showed up at the debate. Probably mistake for him to show up. He certainly got his head handed to him He spent four hundred million dollars in a few months. Ads are everywhere. He's not even contesting Nevada and emily Elizabeth Warren among others just really hammered him hammered the hell out of him and he seemed unprepared right. That was surprising with all the analysis before the debate said Michael Bloomberg Kinda thin skin not used to being challenged for sure. GonNa face questions about his record on stop and Frisk goes. Mayor of New York probably will face questions about all the nondisclosure agreements that women who worked for his company have signed. That was what happened. He seemed flummoxed and insulted that he was being asked to be accountable for both of those actions. Which are important to his record. I mean did you guys think it was sort of political malpractice that he just didn't have like a polished answer at the ready that he'd Practiced I. I thought what what was. David talked about the carnage and there was plenty of it was It was kind of in general. There was a game of thrones feeling about to it and then Elizabeth Warren. I mean every time you thought Oh. She just has brass knuckles. It turns out. No she has a baseball bat with a bunch of nails sticking out of it and Oh look at this. She's found a way to sharpen a spoon. I mean she just was pulling out like one weapon. After another and it wasn't just Bloomberg who's Achilles Tendon. She was slowing through. It was. She was delivering blows to everyone and then then she decided to be incredibly generous to closure which I think she was right about when they got into that surf pop quiz question about who is the president of Mexico but there was substance underneath Into your question. Emily the substance that she highlighted. I thought gets to your point about political malpractice. If you have blemishes on your record and your newcomer you. There's one play in the play. Goes like this. You take the Blemish. You've been given you defuse it quickly and then show how you've learned from it. Crucial and then. Drive it to your. You know your ultimate point. That's the that's the reason in rationale for your candidacy and there wasn't a an avenue open in stop and Frisk for Michael Bloomberg. I mean it is a blemish. She can't get rid of that. It is it is history. But then in his answer he failed the lessons test. Which then warrants effectively outlined? Which is. It's not just that this didn't turn out the way you want it. It's that this was failed in its inception and design and that And that design is immoral. And that's the lesson you should have learned so he in real time showed that he hadn't read the lesson learned the lesson and then she jumped into highlight that which is why her her aggressive approach was not just performance but it also had a substantive element to it and to your point. Emily yes it was. It was awful answer both on stop and and and and as and you knew those were coming you could see them miles and miles and miles away. I do not understand having watched this debate. How with Warren is not the front runner she is. She is so good at that at the debate. Piece of it which is one piece of it. She's a really good retail campaigner. She is obviously the smartest person running. And they're bunch of smart people. She has great personnel choices. She has all the capacity to be an excellent executive. I don't understand it. It doesn't it makes it doesn't track to me at all except maybe sexism it. It it really. She is so incredibly. Good at the things you think you need to be good at to be elected and it isn't getting anywhere. Well has side of her in the debates. Though before I don't think she has a maybe she hasn't shown it nearly as much. No maybe maybe so I mean I also thought she was excellent David. I wonder what will happen to her. Poll numbers because sometimes when you go after other candidates aggressively right John. Don't you take them down but also kind of take yourself down by making yourself seem like you're the slayer of the dragons? I E less likable. Why Emily you're talking about the old murder suicide Yes where you are get part went after dean. In two thousand and four John Kerry was the beneficiary and so get part killed Dean and killed himself. I think in this case the primary target of Warren's Ir was Bloomberg and she can gain collective joy in the the much of the Democratic Party at his Embarrassing Bloomberg question is whether a couple of things I think That are close to what you're saying. Which is one does she. Just give a sugar high to people in other words. If you're not already for Warren you love to see her take on Bloomberg but that's a kind of a discreet thing you don't take the next step. Which is hey she can be president and the vichy could be president argument if you. WanNa make it for Elizabeth. Warren is as dumb and stupid as debates can be and as Weird as campaigns can be. There is a pressure it puts on a on a candidate. That says you're behind you better do something to make your own weather. You better do something to find Elaine for yourself and create a moment that puts you at your best advantage in front of voters. And that's what she did. She sees the moment which is a crucial thing to do in the presidency. Now the question is whether people saw that took it as a sugar high and moved on or said Hey Lemme give her another look the fundraising numbers for her. Were good overnight. That again may just be people who already were predisposed to liking her. So it'll be fascinating to see how this all plays out. The final thing I would say is one of the things that again. It may not matter with voters but she's quite skilled at his in this in the kind of silly topline debates you have about words like socialism and capitalism Blah Blah Blah. She is very good at taking issues. And saying this is what this is what we're really debating this and and and so making something more concrete. Not just with a story about somebody. She met in line. But specifically with Wi- debates about socialism verse capitalism and managed capitalism have a real effect in wealth tax. Have a real effect in a way that voters understand and that'll be the crucial test for any general election. Candidate who wants to take a a lot of buzzwords that people throw around in twitter and on in the press and turn those buzzwords into component parts that people really can latch onto when they're making decisions about their presidents. I want to John. This is maybe an end up being a question posed at you. The give you the question and then I'll have the speech. The question is is going to be does the debate matter for Bloomberg actually given the amount of money he seems to be willing to spend given historically how little debates really seemed to make a difference in terms of poll numbers but I'll frame it by saying look. Everyone knows I'm in the tank for Bloomberg. I think he was great mayor. I think he's an amazing philanthropist and I think he's a great business leader. I think he has extraordinary. Executive capacity proved over a whole lifetime and You know made great choices and who? He hires to work for him how he organizes his work how he accomplishes his work and I think were he in the White House. He would be a an excellent president and also I think he has single handedly done as much to change the debate on climate change in and redress climate. Change slow down climate. Change any person on the planet so if you care about that as an existential issue I think he's. He's your person that said. He obviously had an incredibly bad debate. Was ill-prepared was unable to articulate why his policies were good was unable to offer a kind of coaching defense of his. Co. clearly not great personal behavior when he was running his company or ways that created an atmosphere that made made it Made Women men particular worked for him. File complaints in make settlements with them. And I'm not saying that that should disqualify him at all but his his inability to answer it was pretty poor that you know. But but he we know the his. He's an executive. We know that he has the capacity to do the job. We know the experience do job. We know he's He's successful and and get things done and so should. Democrats try to look past the debate. Which isn't totally artificial format. Which doesn't really have anything to do with what you do as the executive of the country. You don't sit around having debates with with seven random people where you're trying to score points And and continue to look at him look at him through a different Lens. Wait didn't you just say about Elizabeth Warren that her skill debating showed like that? She should be way ahead. And what a great president who would I said? That was one piece of it. She's clearly very good at that piece of it and it's delightful and I said she also has. She's really smart. She's good at the retail politician. Politics piece of it. She's a great policy person and she has a history of making great personnel choices too. So it's like altogether. She has that she has a lot of what? Bloomberg has without the kind of executive record but she also has the retail piece in a much stronger way. Okay so here's what. I came away with about Bloomberg. It's not that he doesn't have good debating skills that he conveyed the impression that he has deeply not reckoned with these problems like. I thought that the reason he didn't have a good answer was it. He just really hasn't sat down learned. About how terrible stop and Frisk was for young. African American and Latino men in New York City considered the other ways that crime can be reduced. That are less harmful and really like had a sort of come to Jesus moment though I know that's not the right term to use for him and I felt the same way listening to him to talk about you know sexual harassment nondisclosure agreements and his office. The reason that matters to me is that yes. A competent executive is great. But I don't want someone who's bloodless like who doesn't learn deep moral lessons who doesn't have that kind of other dimension of his thinking that you want in the president which is someone who like has really good values and cares about people not just about making trains run on time and I was left feeling like Whoa. This guy really still has so much to prove on that. Front fair unfair. I mean obviously you want you want those characteristics. The there's a boat immoral reason you want them which articulated and then there's a tactical reason you want them because he's got to get through a primary in which he's got to show at least some level of understanding. Which is what I was saying about Elizabeth Warren highlighting the fact that he didn't have the basic first building block of what would be necessary just from purely tactical ruining the room. It's moral component of purely tactical requirement to show that he'd learned something he didn't even have that which is the prerequisite for then him making the case which he then didn't make which is the one David is making. Which is it seems to me that that his argument is I may be son of a bitch but I'm your son of a bitch and I can both take on trump and then when I get an office I'll have all of this Experience that I've used both as a successful person in private. Enterprise philanthropist and and at least mayor of a big city and. I'll put that to use for your for your goal. So he's he has to get people to make a punt kind of devil's bargain with him. He's Never GonNa win. He's never going to be more virtuous than the other candidates but he has to at least cross a threshold which he didn't even. I don't think cross in in that case does it matter club. Hr Rose after the New Hampshire debate. Early voting is already taking place in Nevada and California so that some of that is baked in already although my guess is that the early voting taking places from highly organized candidates like Sanders on the other hand. Bloomberg has a lot of money and might be organized. Those states Undoubtedly is in California. So will it really matter also you? I guess we should also discount a lot of the grave. Dancing that's going on with Bloomberg is by people who are predisposed to hate him anyway so He he played a a tough hand badly. and and so people are going to Go going to enjoy that. So I think it's some. He had a shot to introduce himself in this and he blew it. And if one of the arguments for campaign is he's got these skills and attributes from the private sector. One of those presumably is when you go into an unfamiliar environment. You learn whatever you need to do to succeed in that environment and he did not do that so I want to turn to a couple of other candidates in particular People to judge who interestingly decided that he was going to focus on the tax not really on Bloomberg although he threw a few shots in that direction but on Bernie Sanders and I was trying to position. This that that there's a Bernie Sanders alternative. And then there's the modern alternative and I am the best of moderate alternative. I thought he was really You know he's so calm and cheery and unflappable in a way. That seems very winning to me but I want John. Tell me why that is wrong. Well I think he's trying to basically get the not Bernie Lane to himself. He's trying to build his authority on the debate. Stage both by weakening those with existing authority like Basing Biden's to all these yesterday's man with Klobuchar he's trying to say you don't have the authority from Washington that you think you do so diminish everybody else's authority and then by performing really having an answer for everything doing probably better than anybody else. Although Warren is quite good at it to taking an answer quickly defining it in terms that are most favorable to him and then attacking those terms which is basically what any successful debater does. And he's quite good at it in his debate performances. He's building authority for himself. Because he is you know he does have a thin resume and so I think going after sanders being the only one to do that. And I'm in and wireless with Elizabeth. Warren did make a little little attack on Sanders which actually is useful lane for her to take which is basically that his ideas about revolutionary totally unrealistic. She impressed the case very hard. He has to press the case aid to be the leader of the Anti Bernie Wing and be also just because he has to choose. I think tough assignments for himself to keep elevating his stature which implicitly an answer the question that he's who's he's too young into an experience let's let's bring this to close on Joe Biden. Who was there and was not in. No sense shamed himself. He did not he did not Spit up over himself or anything like that but it didn't feel like That he was there to to run away with the race or to stake a claim that that he was going to be the destined anti Bernie candidate. It felt like he was sitting there in the pack with everybody else and that does not seem good enough unless his organization is masterful and in some of these coming up states. I think that's right. I mean he would. He just wasn't a part of the conversation much and for somebody who's WHO's had taken a devastating blow in the first two contests. There were opportunities where he could have Where I mean. He's got to make his central case. Which is I had the experience. And the the reflexes of successfully advocating for the values of the sparty in my bones that's his argument and in this particular perilous moment for him it didn't come flying Through the television screen as you quite rightly point out unless he's got an amazing organization in these states he just seems to be not in the conversation. And if you're if one of the things that was propelling you think that's an issue with his drop is that his sense of inevitability has been punctured. So if that goes away. What's the what's the rationale for his candidacy? And the only way to rebuild inevitability is to look big Bat and inevitable and. I don't think he did that on the debate. Stage big bad inevitable as my. Wwe Pay you didn't know that all right well we'll see on Saturday at the Nevada caucuses wrap up and we get closer to Super Tuesday slate. Plus numbers you get bonus segments on the Gab fest and other slate podcast and today on our bonus segment. We're going to design the perfect news source. You are overwhelmed with news overwhelmed with information overwhelmed with instagram twitter and facebook. And we're going to simplify tell you what the perfect new should be although one exists. I've made that won't even help you. But illich in allow you to imagine a world with perfect source go to play dot com slash s plus to become a member today support for the vast comes from ziprecruiter hiring use to be hard multiple job sites stacks of resumes. Confusing review process. But today hiring can be easy and you only have to go one place to get it done ziprecruiter dot com slash gap best ziprecruiter since your job to over one hundred of the. Web's leading job sites. 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Sikora DOT COM slash gap vest support for the gap is brought to you by Google from Connecticut to California for Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online businesses like strider bikes and rapid city. South Dakota or using tools like Google market finder and Google ads to expand their reach and connect with more customers. Globally and more customers globally means that strikes can hire more employees back home in the US to grow with. Google initiative is committed to helping. American businesses like strider bikes. Use The web to grow. That's why grow with. Google provides free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching to small businesses and all fifty states helping them get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at Google dot com slash. Grow that's Google dot com slash grow as we are recording the show. Judge Jackson is sentencing. Roger Stone in a Washington courtroom. The Roger Stone case of course is captured the imagination because of the enormous Upset and the Department of Justice over some perceived interference in that case by bill bar potentially by the president. What is clear is that the president continues to up end the fair administration of Justice in ways that are disturbing unpleasant for the country. He This Week. Issued a series of pardons and commutations that are baffling and in a way tragic given what the power of computation can be used for He relieved the sentences or lifted. The convictions of people. Like Michael. Milken Bernie Kerik the former New York City Police Commissioner Eddy debartolo junior the former owner of the San Francisco Forty niners commuted Rod Blagojevich the governor of Illinois who tried to sell a Senate seat commuted his sentence. He commuted sense of Jack Abramov crony. He seems to have given a break to somebody who gave a huge amount of money to trump associated pacs and organizations in recent months or family did a lot of these people who got pardons where people who went on Fox News or associated with Fox News characters and use that platform to get the president's attention. So emily what do you make of the pardons and the general interference in the process of affair? Justice that the president's engaged so I think trump is determined to show that he is at the top of the Justice Department. He is the chief of American federal law enforcement. He's been repeating that clearly. He wants to feel like that's his role. And I think these pardons play right into that. They don't cause a constitutional crisis or a direct conflict with bar or anyone else said the Department of Justice because the president has this pretty unlimited not unlimited very discretion over his pardoning power and so he picked a bunch of people who has friends been whispering in his ear about. I mean it's just such a great example of executive largesse like someone somebody else likes has been in jail and so then they go on this list and it doesn't matter that there's been in the past incredibly or neat intricate way way too. Encumbered process for applying for a federal. Pardon like if trump is sympathetic to you out you go and you know. The cast of characters is a kind of like who a- privileged list kind of Motley crue of corruption at least in terms of people like Rod Blagojevich and it doesn't matter to trump because he's just like inserting himself and I think he figures and he may well be right. That would've ever the political disadvantages. Are they'll be long forgotten by the time November? Twenty twenty rolls around. So that's how I read all of this and I think there is a link to the Roger Stone trial but John what's your thoughts about the pardons I mean. I have two thoughts. The first is that the president is We know is kind of expert at using the Kerfuffle to his ends so he does things to bait the press or his critics and he does it for a reason which is that in the kerfuffle some benefit happened. So what do I mean by this? So when he says that his the economy's the strongest it's ever been. He is hoping that somebody will fact. Check him and say no. It's not it's not the strongest ever. And what he's done is he's doubled. The amount of time being spent talking about how good the economy is. He doesn't care of the people that four people somewhere might think. Oh he wasn't keeping his facts straight about the economy. He's just happy to have the extra conversation. The kerfuffle over the fact check to your to lift up the fact that the economy is good and that's true millions and millions and millions of different times that he blows through fact checks in order to to have the conversation continue on the topic he wants to. So what is the benefit of the Kerfuffle here? I don't know the second thing is on. My mind is for the president. Clearly his his interest in view is that the normal. The norms of Washington traditions are an impediment to what he wants. So the question is do you break those norms quietly. You know or slowly without people noticing or is it important to have a public back and forth the way he did with with attorney general bar this week in which he destroys the norm right before people's eyes in real time to show you how basically useless they are so barger line in the sand and said don't talk about these judges are these cases and the and the president leapt over the line repeatedly and instantaneously and just hopped back over back and forth over two million different times and nothing happened to him and so is that the president's strategy which is to Not justified traditions norms but actively do it in public to encourage the view. Basically that these things really are toothless. And which is even more powerful than simply ignoring them. And they're toothless of course going back to the theme of the decade of the century because the teeth that could could bite into him which are legislative teeth will not bite because they congress and the Senate In particular refuses to act in any way to constrain it and to enforce its rights and privileges and to tell him that he can't do these things which are against norms and against Against practice and against the law even and so if if the president believes that he can do these things and and there's no mechanism to stop him because legislature act then. He will continue to do them. There was a very good piece now. We've now forgotten where I think. It was in the Post Two times twenty at that. Trump is pardoning people of course they're his cronies and many cases and there are people who who are Fox News 'cause celebs but there are also people who are very much like him in certain ways so he pardoned Souza for campaign finance crimes campaign finance crimes which are in themselves similar to trump's campaign finance chicanery but Desouza was a birther like trump. He pardoned Joe Are Pyo the Arizona politician who like trump has been an absolute should. Yes Sheriff Joe Pirate Scourge of Immigrants Blagojevich. Who got this commutation? Is Somebody politician? Who used a shady telephone call to try to get favors? Political favors done in a way that trump has been known to use a shady phone. Call to get political favors done. He's pardoned now three old white billionaires for various kinds of corruption. So so he he's I'm sure he's trying to make a larger point but he's also clearly Clearing his own name as he does this he reached. He's wiping the slate clean. Because these are people who are people like himself. That's one point the second point I want to make is what an incredible sad lost opportunity there. So that if I were the president I would use this power if I were the president. Our president trump who has a appalling ratings with poor people with African Americans with With Hispanic Americans with people from generally disadvantaged people man. I would use this. I would use this power commutation and pardon generously vigorously in the way that he he got so much credit for pardoning that woman who Kim Kardashian West had brought to his attention he could just just do do some of those and bask in the attention and bask in the in the favor that that would do but instead he pardons a bunch of like old white guys who are corrupt like him. I what a wizard. I'm not sure that's not the second beat here. You think he'll do that so so yeah so. I think you already did this because the Alice Johnston Pardon She's the African American woman who was serving a life sentence who Kim Kardashian ask trump to pardon she was a subject of his Super Bowl Ad. And you know like different African American politicians and figures. Were like wait a second? You're trying to you know D- Con People into thinking that like you really care about this community so I feel like he's operating on all cylinders already in the Roger Stone instance. I don't think there's a political benefit I can see for trump's going on and on about stone but one does wonder why he is just so adamant about stone not going to jail is it because he knows that stone if he ever did talk could really cause a lot of trouble and as it because he is hoping not have to use his pardon power but also lining up the base to get behind that next step good questions we will find out or not. I mean I'm struck by how this pardon power again just shows how trump can be doing different kinds of things in different times and the inconsistencies. Don't seem to really stick him. And and we're all just sort of left like following the news and and insisting on these norms that mostly work but you might have had some problems with them. I mean David. I think you're absolutely right. Like the president could use his or her power and power to such a greater degree than they actually do. And so that makes you like okay. We'll opening the door to pardons has some benefit to it. Even if it seems to be in the most sort of cynical undeserved way and maybe John's right like they'll be a group of pardons to come. There's just this sense constantly of like this drama. We're watching unfold. The dozen totally make sense but has these new like entertaining figures kind of walking onto the stage for a minute. Can I just jump very quickly and say what's at heart here right? Emily Creeks wrong with what we're talking about here. With respect to pardons is the president of the United States using his office for ways. That are personally aggrandizing either directly or indirectly. But it's essentially misusing the office. Which is the thing that he was supposed to be chasing about after impeachment. It's not likely that a lot of people are putting as the first reason he's doing this the fact that he thinks that there are inequities and imbalances in the in the criminal. Justice system. Right I mean. He's just refusing to color in the lines. Right and other presidents when they have had these kind of brushes with impeachment and lots of criticism they retreat to this very sober place of trying to stay as far away as possible from anyone who smacks of corruption like. Oh Roger Stone you know. He used to be my friend. But now you know he like there are some retribution. D Do here and I would never have anything to do with trying to help someone like that. Because I'm very different from that person distancing myself from them with trump. It's just totally the opposite. One of the Great Divides in cultures between comedy and horror. What seemed funny under. Some circumstances can be pure nightmare under others and I think just look at clowns clowns which are stand for humor and then can so easily be transmogrify into into her and I feel that way about our guests new book very stateful Genius Phil Rucker and Carolina have written huge bestseller about the trump presidency. A book that I think. Have you heard about in two thousand sixteen and some of the details that you have thought never? That could not happen no way and now it just feels like it's true and horrible. It's report reporting that has revealed yet again the trump presidency in its sick narcissistic cruelty so welcomed the Gabfest Carol start with you. What of all the tales that you guys have told in this book and the amazing reporting this book. What do you think has struck most with readers? What story in particular. I think that the piece that has made people. The most upset and distraught is the moment where the president is dressing down his generals in his military officers. Many of whom have give have offered to give their lives and have literally given the lives of their children To protect the country in that moment in July twenty seventeen when three of his senior advisors his secretary of defense his Secretary of state in his national economic advisor bring him into a sacred space in the Pentagon to try to educate him a little bit. About what does keep America safe? Because he doesn't seem to understand that and his recoil at their school house rock turns into a bellowing fast where he calls them dopes in babies And tells them he wouldn't have gone to war with them. Perhaps the worst curse word they could ever hear that has really resonated with readers in part because Many people in America have have military in their own family and found that upsetting. You know in some ways. This book is confirming an impression. That's been building about trump since the election And it falls in the wake of other books that are pretty shocking in their kind of inside details and I wonder you know having thoughts so much about this. What in say you bring like? What where you land in terms of how you think about Not Trump's character so much as the kind of administration he runs the kind of president he would be if the country elects him. Yeah so there have been You're right there have been so many books about the trump presidency so far and I feel like caroline. I were lucky because we had three almost three full years of the presidency to consider when writing this narrative and because of that time In depth reporting we could find patterns. That weren't immediately clear in early months of the presidency for example We find that the North Star for trump is the perpetuation of his own power and self image and survival from day to day crisis to crisis. And we've seen we saw rather after the end of the Russia investigation investigation. The president got off without any sort of legal consequences. For his actions. His documented attempts of obstructing justice and then became more emboldened and more empowered and and more unrestrained. If it were we saw him get rid of the adults in the room. The REX TILLERSON'S THE GYM. Madison's the HR mcmasters the John Kelly's and replace them with the team of enablers. A secretary of state. Mike pompeo who allowed for Rudy Giuliani to do this shadow diplomacy with Ukraine. A chief of Staff Mick. Mulvaney acting chief of staff by the way Who enabled the delay of the military aid for Ukraine and the president got into more and more trouble there and so these patterns emerged over the three years and with the benefit of time. We can see more of it Caroline fill e when when you presented the going back to that to the story about being at the Pentagon so there are two possible responses from defenders of the president's. One is you know. That's his tough style you know. That's that's he's disruptor and and that's and then there's a second slightly more precise R- argument. Which is you know when presidents come in. There is A. There's a kind of accepted wisdom. And you know we've been fighting for eighteen years in Afghanistan and the Washington Post printed. The amazing Afghanistan papers would show basically administration after administration has lied and deceived the public. And so a new president coming in against that kind of calcified thinking perhaps has to be engage in Belo Fest. If people mount those counter arguments against that scene. How do you then say what? What would the response be to explain the difference between being Well what would the response be you know? This scene does have a president challenging very openly and very bellicose way The Afghanistan war calling it a loser war and I completely after experiencing the The Afghan paid papers. I see exactly why folks view the president as rightly challenging the wisdom of that many years in what he calls a piece of sand however that scene is not just a moment in which he's accusing his generals of being losers for pursuing that war he's also challenging Their decision to have troops and bases in places that protect us He's challenging fundamental assumptions That actually have been really beneficial for the country for decades the NATO alliance for example. This is a moment in which the president is taking the snow globe of the way. We've been running the country's national security apparatus and shakes it in the air and throws it up and throws it on the ground. He isn't just challenging the Afghanistan war and it is an ad hominem attack as well right. He's calling them dopes babies he's threatening to fire General Nicholson for being a loser until Dunford and Mattis Much more senior folks the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary of Defense remind him that Nicholson is simply doing exactly what was in the national security plan that the president had authorized when he came into office he is following the orders That he's been given so it's disruption for disruptions sake as opposed to disruption in the cause of a virtuous end. You know it's one thing to call people names in a room. It's another come up with your plan. And and the many things that the president attacks that have been proven to safeguard us was just as worrisome as the Ad Hominem element of the way. He went out them. Did you guys your reporting find any episodes where something could have gone? Even more darkly there something could have gone taking even more horrific turn and somebody stepped in and did stop it and what. What's a particular episode like that? If you did come across something like that well one thing that theme that came through in our interviews with all of these administration officials who worked with the president is how lucky. This president has been Three years in. There's not been a nine eleven. We've not had a a terror attack on our country. There's not been a calamitous global event that has required His sort of intervention leadership That we've seen with some previous presidents and you know the people who are concerned about trump's fitness for office and his decision making are relieved every day that America's not been tested in that way surely thinks could have been worse but part of it is just the luck of of the situation. That trump is in right now. What you know. It's sort of amazing as political reporters and investigative reporters to be writing a book called A. Very stateful genius about a current president and I wonder if you know obviously you're investigative skills and your analysis on great display in this work but is it particularly challenging with the presidency that has this much fodder for criticism to be writing something that you're also still covering and to feel like you're presenting a factual truthful picture but it's also just like incredibly negative. I just wonder if there were other moments in history. Where would have been easier to say well and also here are these? Are these good things happening Whether the facts themselves are so imbalance that that presents a challenge for you. You know this presidency That Fillon I've been covering for the last three. Plus years is unprecedented. In every way and part of the reason we decided to hit the pause button and do this book was because history was literally unfolding in front our eyes and as to your smart point. Emily about How negative some of the events may may feel too many of our readers. We apply the same standards we applied as reporters which was rigorous vetting the information trying to capture. What really happened in the room checking and rechecking and rechecking those events but another sort of central guiding principle for this book and the anecdotes we used was how do they reveal the portrait of Donald J trump. A question we kept asking ourselves was. What motivates them? Okay we write about a lot of chaos we write about. How many times have you? The Washington Post published a story. That says chaos. Yesterday we wanted to really see what is he like in these rooms and what is pressing buttons and and what keeps him excited. What makes him angry? And those were the scenes we gravitated towards without judgment in this World of chaos. What what keeps people around? I mean. They're obviously if you lots and lots and lots of people who've who've been kicked to the curb or who fled but Why does Mick Mulvaney stay? Wide is Ho picks. Come back hope. Pixes back shine fast no to tell too depressing. I mean to to your good question. John I think A couple of things motivated have motivated these people to stay in the orbit despite In some cases the abuse they received from their boss One is power. They WANNA be a decision maker. They WANNA be close to the action they WANNA be a part of the action They see long term career benefits from serving in the government at a high level. They can go on and give speeches or or be lobbyists or get bigger corporate jobs or or what have you. And so they're they're sort of making an investment in their careers by serving a president who they see a lot of fault with But the other thing that keep in mind is the people in Trump's close orbit view him as an incredibly kind of magnetic force like it's exciting to be around him Hope Hicks spent hours of every day at his side When she was working in the White House and then she left the White House and went to La to work for the new Fox company under Lachlan Murdoch and by all accounts. That's more boring job. Corporate job he's dealing with investors earnings and and all sorts of Corporate issues. You're not with the president of the United States every day putting out brushfires every hour and so there's an appeal to people who wanna be a part of that action to just being there Despite all the flaws that trump may have I remember once I was hanging out with a very rich and Successful person who had had a pub more public career to and he was just sitting there. Bemoaning how boring money is money is boring and powers interesting. So maybe that's part and trump is not boring. I mean give give him that he he makes exciting. I'm curious How much of the regular order of the White House goes on the trump administration so historically there's always so much made of the presence daily briefing you know the gatekeepers. The everything starts on time How how Meetings are held the protocol of it is any of that still in place or is it all one hundred percent gone. A lot of that is tossed out the window. I I found it really interesting to go through some records of the president's schedule as Phil and I were reporting on this we we were pretty Vestigial about looking at the actual contemporaneous records. And when you look at the schedule you can see that. The president's Day like Obama's Day when he was president pretty much started like crocodiles on six thirty seven seven thirty this kind of timeframe come have a presidential daily brief the night before Obama used to read it on his on his IPAD and and then have a brief or come in and discuss things with him as the days went on of the of president. Trump's presidency after inauguration. Those hours kept shifting back. Executive time kept Absorbing more of his morning he stayed up in the residence. They at first to impose this idea of him coming in at nine into the Oval Office. That didn't work than it was ten than it was eleven so he doesn't Do much in the morning other than watch a lot of television. Some of which. He's t vote Make a zillion phone calls to friends especially Fox Folks who he's just seen on TV to congratulate them on what he's just heard them say in real time the order of decision making that that's the morning how different it is in this White House. The order of decision making is another way in which this presidency is so unusual. People talk about how there should have been a process for how decisions are made H. R. McMaster. The National Security Advisor was big on process. There'd be these documents provided the president would look at them. Then he'd be able to ask questions or be sessions where other people would come in to answer those questions and then there would be a group of people to Suss out the best options. There'd be recommendations there'd be a final decision. It doesn't happen that way in this White House. People come in as as HR McMaster once said to AIDS SIDEWAYS. Cross ways long ways. They're coming in at all different. Junctures there is no formal and consistent review process. Some people call the president on a cell phone and tell him. I think this is a good idea as we say in the book Lou Dobbs used to call him and say here's what you should do about the border his DHS secretary at the time. Here's to Nielsen getting on the other end of the phone. Call this berating from the president. Why aren't you doing what Liu says? And she said well. Some of those things are illegal and a few of them were already doing So lots of differences in this White House so one of the things that we keep talking about is power and just like a search for power and I think if I understand correctly that what you've decided really does motivate trump. Is this thirst for more power. And obviously it's in the service of particular goals and he's harnessed himself to the Republican Party and also changed the gender somewhat so when you imagine a second term trump presidency especially phil given what you were saying about how. What we've seen is a kind of trump becoming more unbound Getting rid of the people who were constraining him feeling like he's more competent knows how to do this job the way he wants to do. Maybe he feels like his mornings are spent really well because he's shoring up his base and getting the advice of the people you trust the most. So what would you anticipate? Do you think I guess I'm just sort of it? Feels sometimes like it couldn't go much further in that direction and yet it still continues to to move. Yeah I think you're right. It can still move and it is still moving. Just look at the the couple of weeks after the impeachment acquittal by the Senate the president has exercised his power in extraordinary ways to try to protect its friends to punish his foes to root out perceived enemies from the bureaucracy and the national security apparatus His intervention at least publicly on twitter To support a lighter sentence recommendation for Roger Stone. A longtime friend and former campaign adviser and then Just this week. He announced that he was going to appoint as the acting director of National Intelligence. One of the most important jobs in the government. The person who runs a all of the intelligence agencies and funnels the nation's secrets to the commander and chief He's appointing Rick. Grenell The ambassador to Germany but more notably a fierce loyalist at to the president and to his family and a a friend of Donald trump junior's and and yes at at twitter troll at times. He's going to be. The new acting denies. That trump is looking for ways to perpetuate his power to expand The reach of of loyalty to him personally within the government and I assume if he gets reelected that a second term we'll look very much like The last few weeks half and Grenell's GONNA stay. Stay being a bastard Germany right. I saw that. I don't know if that's true but I'm not sure about that. Like to difficult jobs to do at one. Well exactly deny was created after nine eleven because of the catastrophic Lack of connecting the dots. I mean this is. This is a job created for our modern terrorist moment. So it's not something you can kind of low share but Anyway did either of you find. Instances in which there is no process. And there's all kinds of reasons that's a disaster Was there was there any efficiency or any way in which people basically who the president didn't care about what they were up to. They had certain freedoms to move. Because unlike other white houses where everything vetted fifty eight times and the president has to weigh in that because this president is disinterested in most of the operations of government that there were any That it's actually operating in a more efficient manner in any possible way. Well certainly with the president not keeping tabs and the White House not keeping very good tabs on other agencies. There've been a lot of ways in which secretaries and Secretaries and principal deputies have been able to push things through rather quickly But that isn't the focus of our book. There have been many instances reported in The Washington Post at the EPA at interior at State under POMPEO. In which things have been moving with some alacrity in a way that wouldn't that would get probably more review you've probably also noticed that at EPA particularly there's idea that the public gets to Have a comment period on certain. Decisions is kind of tossed by the wayside so in addition to the president not keeping tabs on it the public's previous role and being able to keep tabs on it is reduced as well. So is it possible to because you guys have have put your finger on his personal power about which he tends and cares a great deal and makes all of these. Very focused moves to to accumulate in and protect and grow In the past presidents have tried to move things in from cabinet agencies inside the White House to accumulate power in his presidency. It looks like he hasn't chosen to do any of that because he doesn't see it as a particularly helpful to his main project which is the accumulation of his personal and specially designed view of power. Is That A. Is that a way to think about it. I think you see right in front of your face. Every day. What DONALD TRUMP considers important in the hinterlands of his agency's the wall Making sure people understand that he is going to build it one way or another and so the Department of Homeland Security as you rightly point out John which was a part of the apparatus created after nine eleven to protect us from future terrorist attack. The folks that are engaged in protecting us from from terror plots are almost not on his radar at all the DHS has become the wall agency. It's the only thing. He's really focused on in that department so much so that the department is now willing to consider all they're excited about it giving up the secret service which used to be part of their agency but feels like a red headed stepchild there and wants to move out and back to treasury very stateful genius from Phil Rucker and Carolina Bestseller. It's amazing and it's filled with details. That will make your jaw drop in your hair fall out your red headed stepchild hair fall out possibly thank you guys for coming in. Thanks so much okay. Let's go to cocktail chatter when you are finished reading your copy of a very stable genius and you're like man. I need a drink. I WanNa talk about something else. John Dixon GonNa be chattering about my chatters about a comment a burst of candor from Mick Mulvaney Acting Chief of staff of the White House in which he said. My party is very interested in deficits when there is a Democrat in the White House. The worst thing in the whole world is deficits. When Barack Obama was the president then Donald Trump became president. And we're a lot less interested. So this is mcq. Mommy saying something out loud. That's demonstrably true And extraordinarily true deficits have have mushroomed under Donald Trump. But you wouldn't expect the chief of staff of the White House of the current sitting President To say to say it out loud and it was particularly striking. Because I'm rereading the long game which is Mitch McConnell's book about the Senate and his career and in it. The central focus of the Obama years is how profligate and The Obama Administration is how awful it is that the deficit is going up. And how that tells you something deeply flawed about the president so seeing that this statement and that and then reading that at the same time and the fact that he pays no heed to whatever a thing that used to be one of the driving and has been for the last. You know forty. Fifty Years of the Republican Party was I thought nicely encapsulated in Mulvaney. He's a quote there. It's really John. I would point out that Mick. Mulvaney is not merely the acting chief of staff. He's also the director of the Office of Management Budget. His job is budgets and budget deficits. Yes although in exciting way that the trump administration oh works. He is both the acting of O. M. B. But then areas. I mean sorry. He is the director of. Oh but then there is also an acting director. Russ Vol I think his name is of. Oem Be so. He's acting Mulvaney acting chief of staff but an actual director of a thing that he doesn't run which is run by an acting director on paper though it would appear that he might have some authority to do something about attending to budget deficit if he so chose right emily. What is Your Cheddar? I was working on a piece last week about labor law which I had took a crash course in. That was what it felt like an. I read a book along the way called a collective bargain by a labor organizer deemed gene Mac Levi and. She's really arguing. That first of all it just is a book with some really interesting history and great examples of her own organizing She just sounds like she's just like very committed and determined and gets the job done and she's basically saying look. The conditions for Labor right now in America are terrible. The reason that you know. Union membership is declining is partly because of these structural flaws in the way our labor law setup but her response is to basically say get over it. And let's look at the places where unions are still able to win. She's particularly interested in teachers strikes and in the healthcare sector. And it's just a really bracing account that you know after reading a lot about how terrible things are for unions. It was interesting and a relief to read about someone who feels like you can still succeed. And who is providing a kind of map for doing that? So Jane Makali'i a collective bargain. Much is just a photo that I saw on twitter. It was tweeted by Marina. Amaral who I think. I've chatted about before. She is a brilliant artist. She's Brazilian who colors photos. So she looks at old photos usually portraits of people taking in early twenty century or eighteenth century and colors them these black and white photos so that they are fully rich realized color photos and they she brings human beings to life in this just absolutely astonishing way with her work. That has nothing to do with her. Tweet she tweeted a photo from The opening of King Tut's tomb nineteen twenty-three so this weekend nineteen twenty-three Howard Carter. The archaeologist Egyptologist opened King Tut's tomb and it's simply a photo of the seal on the tomb which is wrapped in a hemp rope with a very elaborate and quite beautiful not and the not sealed at the end and you can see that it's unbroken and the the tweet is just here's this thing that has been untouched for three thousand two hundred and forty five years and so the photos really. It's not a great photo or anything. It's just a the act of imagination to think about something which has literally been preserved in this perfect state for most of recorded human history and then of course that opened in disturbed. By by Howard Carter bringing mummy's curse upon all of us but It's a great photo listeners. You to have sent us. Excellent chatters this week as in all weeks and you have tweeted them to us at at slate Gabfest or or sent them in other ways but mostly tweeted into us. That's like f-a-s-t and this week's chatter comes from Andrea who imagination was captured by story in the Independent. I think the Irish independent about a ship. That ran aground. Are you heard about this? Joan ship the ghost ship a ghost ship that ran aground has been series of very violent storms in the in Ireland and the UK. The last couple of weeks and a ship was tossed onto the rocks and on the coast of Cork County. And it's a huge ship and it's a ghost ship and it turns out and they're trying to prevent people from clambering on the rocks to explore. 'cause it's very dangerous and goodness gracious. Who knows what can happen to you. But as a ship that had had been abandoned in the middle of the ocean three or four years ago The had engine trouble. The crew couldn't fix it the crew was you know worried. They were going to be strong. In fact the crew was stranded for three weeks without food and water at sea and finally were rescued and rescued in. The ship was just left in the shift has been floating around the ocean and and now ended up tossed up on the Irish coast. So it's quite vivid and magical story and there are not a few ships that just are floating around that end up abandoned the huge ships that just vanish every year and and I guess some of them wash granted Ireland. So check that out if you enjoy the GAB fest. Police subscribe to the GATT fest on this APP that you're listening to us on or wherever you listen to us. I'm sure there's a way to subscribe. Please subscribe to us. It helps us and you will get new episodes. The second they are published. That is our show for today. The gap is produced by Jocelyn. Frank our researchers bridget dunlap Ryan. Mcevoy helped out emily in new haven with a Kaplan helped me in DC. Who is with you? John Justin Debate Dustin Day with John in New York. You should follow us on twitter. That's like gap s tweet chat or to us there. Gabriel Roth is the editorial director slate. Podcastone Thomas is the managing producers. Podcast and Emily Baz lawn and John dickerson and I are the hosts of this lake efforts. And we'll be back with you next week. Thanks for listening hello slate. Plus what's up? How are you good to see you? Nice to see you again. We are going to talk about John. Dickerson proposed idea John Frame. It up for us. My idea was If you could design your perfect news either outlet or Diet How would you do it if I guess I? I thought of it from the production end. So you've been given all the money in the world. Maybe not that anyway. You've been given money to design your news Oregon what do you? What do you do? What's your mix? How do you deliver it And what's your purpose David? It's funny it's for me it's really I guess I don't feel that I'm suffering from an absence of it. I find that the New York Times The New York Times and The Washington Post meet ninety seven percent of my news needs on a daily basis and an York. Times I was going to say. It's mostly near timely. New York Times probably eighty percent phone and the bits that aren't met are mostly things around around British soccer which I pick up from the Guardian. Espn SO I. I guess I don't live in a world of dissatisfaction that my I get. I happen to live in a city Washington where there's a strong local newspaper and so the the post is both great national newspaper and it's an okay local newspaper. The new the newspaper is the even not the paper itself but the the kind of the collective project of the newspaper. The way has gathered and presented online is the very effective way to collect most of the important news of the day so and then I look at twitter and look at twitter and so I don't. I don't think there's a lot that I want to improve. The only thing I would want to improve is that I don't like to watch video and due to listen to audio and I think what I would like is they do like to look at pictures. I would like there to be a curated. Maybe ten pictures a day that I could look at. It would be that the that in the New York Times along with a one stories. There'd be there'd be ten photos you could just look at which would have really good national geographic style captions. That would almost be new. Some reason of themselves in themselves and to be able to look at that and then similarly like a if I wanted it and probably wouldn't listen to this every day kind of Audio of the world. Not Not just not just somebody reading reading the news but audio that is Captured audio snippets of that condensed. Five minutes you could listen to what happened in the news in five minutes by listening to people the real voices of human beings not not of reporters and pundits but of the actors those events. Those are the two things I would add. Are you defining news? Kind of narrowly to really be about news consumption as opposed to analysis or other kinds of long forum reading or listening or watching. You might be doing Gavitt fans. That was just a teaser. Here the rest of our slate plus conversation go to sleep dot com slash gabfest plus to become a slate plus member today. I'm Shumita host claw. Wnba all-star Olympic gold medalist and a person with mental illness in my new show tremendous upside. I talked to other top athletes about that side of sports. You don't see the holiday clips tackling issues like addiction anger management and depression. My guests include Meta world peace. Suzy Favor Hamilton. Brian Dawkins and many more. You can find tremendous upside now on apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.

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