19 Episode results for "John Conway"

Fury at Labour conference over Brexit votes

Coffee House Shots

11:13 min | 2 years ago

Fury at Labour conference over Brexit votes

"Just before you start listening to this podcast reminded that we have a special subscription he can at twelve issues of the spectator for twelve pounds as well as the twenty pound Amazon voucher the go-to. You spectator dot com forward slash voucher. If you'd like to get this offer unwelcomed coffeehouse shots spectators spectators daily sometimes twice daily podcast free daddy's time reading politics podcast. I'm John Conway. Really I'm John by Isabel. Hartman and Katie balls in a small side room just outside the main of disoriented. Labor conference now is solid as a controversial official vote which resold decided against backing remain policy yeah there was sort of the requisite amount of Kales given neighbors confusing chaotic brexit exit position. It was sort of representative weather party is so there were three motions related on this afternoon. Is expanding this morning's podcast. That was the labour. NEC saved that was endorsing Jeremy Corbin's approach to the parties stalled on Brexit and that is to kick the can down the road and not make a decision to offer the general election when the Party will hold one day special conference then there was another motion compensate thirteen which could for the party to unequivocally back remain remain and then there was a third motion which was another fudge basically kicking the can down the right now any seem ocean post very easily easily. There was a show of hands on the conference floor is quite clear that the that they delegates overwhelmingly in favor of that but then we came to composite thirteen and this point from where I was sitting on the balcony did look as though that were more people voting against the motion than they were voting for getting it was a show of hands it's but it wasn't tear and the chair when Nichols who I'd say had handled the slightly eccentrically throughout the afternoon. I was in the fall two hours or how long it went on for. She initiatives baffled then. She said that the motion hadn't carried then she said Jenny foreign be had a different view and so they had a whispered conversation and then she announced that the motion has not carried never went bananas. There were shouts screams people chanting card vote card card vote and she was refusing basically card versus when you don't rely on looking at a show of hands here. She counts the number but she refused that and one told me the business basically you saw a little bit more actually on television screen to me because I was in the whole dog bit far away from the conference in State and I didn't see this exchange in for B. and Michael's that's right it seemed as if when the chair I changed her mind about I pastor and not passed she then had had a brief conversation with Jennifer under the person's such the right fell on stage at which point form of covered the microphone with hands issue whispered into Katie considering considering how close formby is to Jeremy Kuban. That's not going to be really a good look is and I take it in the first two. I mean I think that's people in that. Who Booth was a stitch the job to be frank and see as soon as they said and it did look very close. We're stood around the screen and the press room aerial view and it's fifty fifty on that motion. I think it was very close to cool and it was interesting that you had the Chaz say that she said it was then she said she he would have cooled it in order and that could go to touch her show eight. Is there a takeover going on and then one arms and both sides hats reassuring her just physically forcing her not she did slightly like should be taken hostage the jury during the nights and there was a point toon said well. I've got an opinion but Jenny has a different one. You're thinking Ooh I wanted to what Jenny any foodies given close proximity to the inexact serving coupons say in tubs what it means to that David policy changing it brings this debate really about remain to to close. I still think we're GONNA see through umbrella and crank conference. Saying Labor is a remained party taking nine that we have more fudge. That's going to stop. I think they'll be relief. In Germany coupons not just because now they kind of have a fudge brexit position though I do think more will be seeing them as quiz to remain at than closer to rex. I think it's important because I think it would have undermined him. Had the motion passed safer compasses thirty and I think it would have been damaging to his leadership. I think people would have I just said well. Actually we just a democracy having this great debate and you'll just being msn talking about civil war but I think the would does does it means there can be fewer stories in the next couple of days of Uday. Jeremy Corbyn scripted his party completely. Go to replace still have some of that speculation because I think what's different about convince people are looking had to off to Jeremy Coupon but I think it will be a relief for those reasons. I think yes leadership will be relieved because they made this about the leadership. They made this more about do people have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn than about the issue itself and off to the result of the to the fights the conference floor break into little him that it's has of Jared Cooling and it was very much about that about confidence in his leadership so he'll go away feeding that that's Beedon underlined as well actually as a paste undermined and it was a bit of a risk to give his holdings house victory shaky for the past few days but it does show that for the delegates at least he does still spot quite a lot of loyalty that might be delegates at different. INTAS is worth pointing out to Labor membership. So the people who are voting today have come on behalf of the wider membership. Some of the people at conference are members take votes and their Lucy. LP's delegate will be voting on their behalf but said that says is a slightly different picture again from the Labor it just to confuse people and talking of Party unity is value witnessed a few speeches today from shadow cabinet members or special remains out of the spectrum. Emily formed Brian. How much did they push about in terms of pushing for remain within the party. Well I mean they both did very clearly say that they would come pain to remain in in fact. Joe McDonald said that in his speech study chancellor earlier in the day as well seems to be a line. They've agreed in shutter cabinet. Which is I've been cleared all campaign to remain rain but let me be clear that I'll always respect those who want to look the other way you what's campaign the other way and so that's clearly the way the leadership is trying to they. Describe a nose listening to you. I'm Andrew Green on the Westminster our last night. What he said was quite instructive about how the leadership is trying to handle this. He said that coburn was basically trying onto Harold Wilson and that shadow cabinet decide how they wanted to campaign even though he's not saying what he's going to I thought the the the most rebellious line she came from case starmer who ad libbed from the speech texts that were sent out to us. He said that it was a year since he'd stood before cody. Franson said that remain needed to be an option on the ballot papers of senior anniversary all of us have been looking forward to Dar es and he said we've come a long way jason then and I think it was his way of saying look how far I've had personally pushed the leadership on this and look how one as well which again shows is Katie says is that the leadership is not stable and Casey. How about John McDonald speech late Fonda. Did he get his across his radical agenda. I think as opposed Dell's says on coffeehouse very well. We have a situation where you're sharing war. This leisure wanted this conference to be about which is having this radical domestic agenda. We we know that they feel they need to have clear water between themselves and Bruce Johnson. They think there's plenty of that on their social views but I think they the Tory party has moved closer to Labor in terms of spending. I think there's the sense therefore it wouldn't be enough to just have a similar platform to twenty seventeen. They need to go further to show they all. There's radical change option polity because if you see Brexit as a event to change if you have very radical domestic agenda they think they can tap into that. You did see John McDonnell unveil several things I think the one that's probably gone at the most attention say is the four-day working week and this would be eased a decade so not as radical and it says that the number of hours you work. I think that's an interesting point because initially I it's been the snap polls today. Hussein type of thing is actually very popular. Now there is some polling day which has the if you want to abolish private schools that is popular vote is apparently tickly afternoon voters but ideally the food worth we for me at least a clearer probably mainstream policy they bring people who is. GonNa get you a lot of attention at the same time so that was an interesting adamant and it also talks about the environment so you're saying from the Damn Conference Veggie Switzer was trying to paint a party. The Party of the environment you're jumped on this is going to be key. We still don't have what this net. Carbon emissions targets today so really where the action is going to match threatened by Eastwood that environmental things because it's the best. What do you get the sense bells. The party is going to carry on moving further left when it comes to the next Monday fester general election as well. Yes Casey was saying you. John McDonnell was offering some very radical policies today. The one that got the most attention four-day working week another policy he announced boost on free personal care back but that doesn't cover the even night costs of social carry which is often the Colson destroys people's finances and he was saying very much. This is the first stepping stone of Labor's policy so I think we all going to see the party needed further teeth aft and I think just don't say your carriage his his speech today on the Line Y. Those Cross Party Talks on social care really are asking for the impossible because the Tories and labour so far bottom how to fund social okay can be very difficult for them to come together and I I think we're actually standing next to a boy is still something if you can hear the straight. Charlie went price of beats. HP trying this is definitely the way disturbed. We've got a pellet behind a wooden trestle tables an evacuation cha chat and some steps on their side and one glove. Just say just so you get the atmosphere. I bet you always you should have done a bit here. Ed Thank you. Thank you Isabelle and thank you for listening.

Party Jenny Jeremy Corbin Katie balls John McDonnell John Conway Casey Amazon representative official Kales Jeremy Coupon Colson Hartman Brexit Nichols Germany Chaz
326- Welcome to Jurassic Art

99% Invisible

31:26 min | 3 years ago

326- Welcome to Jurassic Art

"This is ninety nine percent invisible. I'm Roman Mars. Anyone who has had kids knows that they go through obsessive phases that can last anywhere from a few days to several years. I went through a lot of phases growing up. That's producer and Memphis, Gerald. There was a brief train phase. Then in preschool, I was obsessed with farming equipment. I could list obscure European tractor brands off the top of my head like an old talion wheat farmer. But I think my most intense obsession like many kids was dinosaurs anymore about dinosaurs at the age of five than I do now, and I was all, but certain that I would one day become a paleontologist. I don't know exactly where this dinosaur obsession came from, but I think part of it was just that dinosaurs looked so cool. I had all these books though with incredible drawings of colorful dinosaurs leaping around roaring and Terry into one another. I fell in love with the artwork in those books, and at least for the time being art is the only way we experienced on his orders. We can study bones and fossils, but barring the invention of time travel or some drastic park resurrection scenario, we will never see these animals with our own eyes. There are no photos or video, which means that if we want to picture how they look, someone has to draw them slow. I'm Dr Robert Bucker known to the folks in North Texas as Jurassic, Bob, I dig bums dinosaur bones. Bob Barker is one of the most famous living paleontologists, and he also happens to be very skilled paleo artist. He thinks the two go hand in hand. Art is very important in teaching natural history science, maybe all signs teach everyone art and everyone music to patterns jus. I like Bob lot when I interviewed him in a studio in Boulder, Colorado, he showed up an hour early and he brought his own snacks. He's got snacks here. He's got coffee and some apple free range apple pie. This is so liberal this place. This is so boulder cage free apple pie. Once we got started with our interview, Bob said like me, he got obsessed with dinosaurs and dinosaur art pretty early on how I got hooked was a piece of journalism from one thousand nine hundred fifty three life magazine cover story called the whole world. We live in an pictures of dinosaurs in one, not the cover image was the head of a long neck dinosaur sitting in a swamp munching on grass with a status in the background, sort of staring off into space and inside was this long article about evolution after two hours with life magazine by announced to my startled parents, mom and dad. I want to grow up and be vertebrate paleontologist and dad had no expression and mom's smiled and said, that's nice, dear. It's a stage you'll outgrow. But unlike me dinosaurs weren't just the childhood phase for drastic Bob by the time he. Headed off to college. A career invertebrate paleontology was still the game plan, but it was kind of a strange time to be entering the field in the mid twentieth century. American dinosaurs was in a bit of a rut done is ORs were considered big, dumb, cold-blooded, reptiles, evolutionary failures destined for extinction and that view of dinosaurs affected how they were painted and drawn. Most of the paintings of dinosaurs, they're not moving. They're not interacting with each other. There's no spark of intelligence social life, and their bodies were like poking masses of Lesch the way Brontosaurus diplo dicus the biggest dinosaurs were illustrated. They're like giant Cray. Vacuum cleaners with very, very short legs, and they were slowly pulling themselves across the landscape or sitting. Tepe in a fetish. Swamp gonna wars were often drawn sitting in swamps, like on that life magazine cover the thinking was they were so large. They couldn't possibly hold up their own body weight. And if they were drawn on land, they usually dragged their fat tails behind them as they walked. And that's where we were in the early nineteen sixties dinosaurs were sad cold-blooded dead ends in the history of life. But paleontology was about to go through a spectacular and unanticipated u-turn and a young Bob Barker just off to college would find himself right in the thick of the action freshman year. The Yale geology department took me a bunch of other freshmen out today. The trip out west was led by one of Bob's professors at Yale, a paleontologist named John Ostrom. And among other things we dug up four raptures. They were a new species of raptor that professor Ostrom named dynamics meaning terrible claw. And the bones were found really close together. Presumably they live together. There were a pack may be intelligent, but what really got professor awesome excited was the anatomy of the skeleton after studying the fossil remains back at Yale. Ostrom concluded that dynamic has had not been a slow plotting swamp creature. It had been fleet-footed agile and extremely active. Awesome began to argue that if you really looked at the anatomy of many dinosaurs, they looked less like lumbering lizards and more like super athletic birds and his student. Bob Bacher found this idea really compelling. He remembers looking at a skeleton of a different dinosaur called ornithological. He's really looked like a road roadrunner with a long bony tail and teeth. But wow, it just spoke at Chila t, but then you read the text books. You're not supposed to believe that as an undergraduate Bacher dissecting modern animals in an effort to better understand dinosaur musculature. Then he concluded that the old stereotypes about stupid sluggish dinosaurs just didn't hold up. They weren't slow and sloppy. Now, this idea wasn't totally new. Bucker says that for decades going back as early as the mid nineteenth century, there had been people saying that dinosaurs were smart active and bird like, but these facts were forgotten about really dropped out of textbooks. So Bucker decided to publish a paper in Yale journal in his editor says, I know what you should call the study. And I said what she said, you should call it the superiority of dinosaurs. I said, yeah, that's it. They weren't. Evelyn canary has been 's. They weren't dead ends in the flow of Darwinian process. They were top of the line. They beat everybody. But convincing people that dinosaurs were actually totally different than they had been depicted for the past sixty years was going to require more than a few good economic papers to really change people's minds. Sometimes you gotta show instead of tell and remember Bacher was a skilled illustrator as well as a scientist. And so when John Ostrom wrote his definitive paper on dynamic, he asked Bacher to do the ill 'lustration and positioned to bones as if his raptor was running in the picture of the Rafter is nearly parallel with the ground. It's left legs bringing forward. It's right lead curled tightly against its torso, preparing for the next stride. The tail is high in the air. It's beautiful and kind of terrifying Australian, put the picture right on the front of his paper. Then it quickly became an iconic drawing. No one had ever seen anything quite like it is a renegade. This is Darren niche paleontologist based in the UK. He's a flamboyant appearance. He insists on wearing a cowboy time. He's joint bushy bid on ROY from the late sixties. When he's starting to talk about this stuff, he's he's drawing these agile active Dona cells Bucker finish up at Yale and went off to graduate school where he continued to speak truth to the slow, dumb dinosaurs establishment. He wrote academic and popular articles about how impressive dinosaurs had been an illustrated them all himself. He drew dinosaurs bounding across the prehistoric landscape like track and field stars with live muscular bodies. So froyo prior to this time, an animal likes to run a Soros would have been drawn as a gold Zillow type animal dragon, it's telling the ground is not physically attractive based on dobacco. You've got this thing shown with massive Bojan, muscles and boxers. Athletic dinosaurs became a model for other paleo artists. So when my dynamic is drawing appeared some artists younger than I said. Okay. Now we can do it artists like Gregory Paul embrace this new exciting business of dinosaurs. They started giving their dinosaurs, vibrant colors and occasionally feathers to really emphasize their burdens. Soon. Images of athletic colorful dinosaurs were everywhere, and they helped fuel the revolution that was taking place in paleontology. Throughout the seventies more and more paleontologist got on board with Aastroem and boxers theories, they found new fossils footprint, evidence suggesting that dinosaurs have been warm, blooded, intelligent and birds like this period has become known as the dinosaur renaissance a moment when we totally rethought all of our assumptions about these incredible prehistoric animals in Darren nation, things are was a huge part of its success. I think that part of the reason that the missiles Donoso in Iceland's the dinosaurs vice chairman and backup drew in so many scientists in the sixties and seventies wolves because it was accompanied by brilliant visuals. If anyone missed out on this scientific revolution and still thought that dinosaurs were slow in stupid, that ended in nineteen Ninety-three. The dinosaurs. Jurassic Park are very active. The dinosaurs Jurassic Park in nineteen Ninety-three they all that dinosaur Rene zones don't missiles. And when that movie came out the whole world got to see these fierce athletic creatures running through kitchens and eating lawyers off of toilets. And once you've seen the dinosaurs Jurassic Park, you can't unsee them. I think it cemented the notion of athletic dinosaurs. This is John Conway. He draws dinosaurs for a living pinedale oddest, which means that Joran paint prehistoric animals. Conway got interested in paleo art after reading Bob Barker's book the dinosaur heresies, and in the early part of his career, he drew dinosaurs that looked a lot like boxers, super lean muscle. But after a while, he started to feel kind of funny about it. He says that all his dinosaurs looked like they had been shrink, wrapped suction pack. You punky close and you put the vacuum cleaner on it and you suck the air out at, shrinks it down. That's sort of what we're doing with dinosaurs, sort of pudding skin on them, and then vacuuming out anything that was inbetween that skin in the muscles, no paleo artists weren't just doing that to make their done sores. Look, all cool and buff they were trying to be accurate. I am of the generation of ideologues that grew up from a young age when we first started to think that it really mattered to get things right and to get things right, you want your art to be rooted in real scientific evidence and the main. Piece of evidence is often the skeleton paleo artists would base the shape of their dinosaurs on an accurate skeleton. The bones give you a pretty good idea where the muscles should go. But soft tissues like skin and cartilage and fat are much harder. Fat usually doesn't survive for millions of years in fossils. And so without any evidence of it, paleo artists tended to be pretty conservative about how much fat they gave their dinosaurs, which makes total sense. You're not gonna add something that you don't have evidence for. But the result was that all these dinosaurs looked like they went to the gym three times a day and drank protein shakes for every meal. John Conway says, began to feel as though paleo artists had replaced one orthodoxy with another. At some point, I thought, you know, we can't just keep doing this. This is not interesting in many ways. And is it even right? Is this conservative approach really giving people the right notion about what dinosaurs looked like just because fat didn't. Survive for millions of years. Doesn't mean that a dinosaur didn't have it. They are animals after all, animals have fat, and they have it all over the place and some places they have really big fat reserve, which changes as shite fairly drastically to underscore this point. Conway asked me to consider a thought experiment. If we reconstructed Modin animals like we reconstruct on us sales, what would they look like? In other words, if some alien paleontologist from millions of years in the future was the try and draw a modern animal life, say a whale or a camel just from their fossilized skeleton, how would it look? Well, if you actually do it, the molten animals look ridiculous. If you drop a though head whale, for example, just from the skeleton without a lot of fat or blubber looks kind of like a giant tad pole, but the boldest head in the long snake, like tail of a you take away all that stuff and you're not left with much WALE. Because why else this shape is defined by fat dinosaurs also had fat in John org us that would have changed their shape pretty dramatically. Who knows? Some might have even had humps like camels. You could take one of the most familiar dinosaurs that dinosaur could have camel homes, and we wouldn't know. Right? Because you can't tell from a camel back that it has humps can't has not really anything that Brontosaurus could ahead humps we. Now, scientists do sometimes find on his or fossils with the soft tissues intact. And when they do, they can completely change our image of the animal, the dinosaur, satanic assault, for example, used to be depicted in a standard shrink, wrapped kind of way. Intil paleontologists found this amazing full body fossil where lots of the fat and the skin and the different soft tissues had been perfectly preserved, turns out the fleshy outlaw and around the body was quite extensive. It was quite Shelby creature. This striping over the place will ever the body and growing off the top of the tile. He's got like a hundred long. Curving quills the look like fluffy porcupine quills and let you out a lot together. That's that's a creature this we just would not predict that based on just finding bones. Elaine in recent years fossils have been found with fat and frills and thick coats of feathers. We more than anyone had predicted. So turns out every time we discover something like this, it's weird and that caught me thinking. So if all the ones we've discovered so far have turned out to be pretty weird. What does that tell us about the rest of them? There are bizarre possibilities out there that no one's looking at and I thought, well, I'm going to stop during some of these things. So John began to choice something new with his art. He's started to speculate. He started drawing pudgy dinosaurs and dinosaurs with humps and quills weird skin flaps, and that was my rule. It was health all. Can we go? What's the most outrageous thing I can do that? We know we don't know, isn't true. It's still within the realms of possibility. It's not falsify. John wasn't just making stuff up out of thin air. It was like there was a standard conservative dinosaur at the center of his drawings and then call me would cover it with more speculative elements wasn't claiming that every drawing he did was perfectly accurate, but he wanted to show people that dinosaurs as a group probably had a lot more weird variety than we think. And so to get the overall picture of dinosaurs. Right. I think you need a healthy Tysoe speculation in the Conway says that dinosaur art should always reflect the latest science what we know for sure. But we'll never know everything. And I think the speculation is about what extra bits of weird beauty were in the world back then we'll just never know about the role of the artist is to bring back some of that real magic as a prehistoric wilt. That was certainly there. John eventually decided to give the world some of that magic in the form of a book he teamed up with Darren nation. Another paleo artist, they memo coz men and published a slim little paperback called all yesterday's all yesterday's is filled with dinosaurs that look very different from what you're used to. There's a triceratops that's covered in spines among Soroush with skin that camouflages it against the forest floor. And if there is a source that is so covered in feathers, it looks like a haystack. And next to each image, the artists describes why they drew it that way. The camouflage dinosaur is drawn that way because the artist reason that it's oddly propose. Shen body might have made it vulnerable to predators and in need of some kind of defense strategy. All yesterday's was a big hit and it helps spark a little movement for more speculative paleo art. We talk about the old yesterday's movement as is the new frontier of the way we should depict, press star, kinda moz. Their niche says it's more acceptable now to draw a dinosaur based on a hypothesis. For example, horned dinosaurs like triceratops, have these absurdly large nostrils that have confused paleontologists for years. There've been a few different hypotheses, but Ford by scientists and one of them is that the dinosaurs may have had inflatable knows balloons kind of like elephants seal hooded seal inflatable pouches, but just would've looked wit grotesque and also the into us. But that's a very real possibility. Now twenty years ago, if someone were to draw triceratops with knows balloons, they would have been laughed at the, I would say the what we call the old yesterday's movement means that is now Coit. A reasonable for an artist site. I've shown much ourselves. We join inflatable nose bleeds for this reason and you could say night, don't do it. That's too speculative that it would be equally justifiable to say, okay for the time being. That's okay. That doesn't mean triceratops definitely had knows balloons, but by drawing it that way, it's like the artist is asking us to keep an open mind because even though we know a lot about the prehistoric world and more and more every day, the science is always changing. The past is always a moving target. Pill is not just about drawing dinosaurs with stripes and knows balloons. Illustrators also depict dinosaur behavior, which may have even a greater impact on how we imagined extinct animals more on that. After this. Support for ninety. Nine percent invisible comes from jet dot com. Debt is the shopping destination that lets you shop curated brands in city essentials, all in one place. The jet experience provides a more intentional assortment that is relevant to city consumer shopping preferences across grocery home, fashion electron IX imbued he needs with jet. You get free shipping on orders over thirty five dollars and two day delivery on thousands of essentials. And there is never an annual membership fee, learn more at dot com or download the jet app to get started. On a recent episode, we talked about how bendy straws were created to be used in soda shops, but they never really took off until someone noticed that they make it easier for hospital patients to drink. Then the mainstream picked him up and they spread everywhere. Lots of products are designed with one purpose in mind, but they go on to solve many other problems among them. Fresh books, fresh books, accounting software was created. So people wouldn't have to slog away at word excel to create invoices. Fresh books may have been born to deal with invoicing agony, but they have grown to solve lots of problems for small business owners to features like expense recording in time tracking. We'll keep you in your employees organized their tools like automatic invoice creation and delivery, get you paid faster, but then they have invoice follow up to take care of all those pesky late payment phone calls, fresh books also let you accept credit cards online over the phone and in person even saving credit card information for each client, charge them when you need to join the. Four million people who've used fresh books, try it free, but thirty days, no catch no credit card required. Go to fresh books dot com slash nine nine nine, nine, Andy. How did you hear about a section to get started? Ninety nine percent of visible is supported by Gillette, Gillette offers a wide range of razor options for every guy's grooming needs. Gillette's razors give a smooth clean shaved so you can put your best face forward. And now you can get your, let's quality blades delivered directly to your door for less with Gillette, on demand subscribed today at Gillette, on demand dot com and get fifty percent off your first order. The special offer invisible fifty that's invisible, and the number fifty at checkout. Enjoy free shipping. And every fourth order free with your subscription, visit Gillette on demand dot com. Hello. This is Emmett back with Roman in the studio to talk a little bit more about paleo art. I Roman in this piece, we focused a lot on on dinosaur appearance like the look of their physical bodies, but there's, there's like another pretty important issue with this is Dennis our behavior. Like if you're going to draw a dinosaur, you're, you're going to draw it doing something doing something. And so like when you think of of like dinosaur art, what are the dinosaurs usually doing? Usually the t Rex is tearing something apart. Usually the, at least when I was a kid. The Brontosaurus, as we mentioned was standing swamp with leaves sort of hanging out of its mouth. Right? Like if it's like a meeting dinosaur, it's probably eating another dinosaur attacking another day of his plan eating or is probably being attacked or like running away and some kind of way or eating a plant. I mean, it sort of seems to be like whatever you ate as a dinosaur is what you should be depicted doing right? Any moment it's being depicted in form of art, which like, you know, I mean, in some ways it's it's not just the dinosaur thing. Like if you think about nature, documentaries, we'd like to depict action. Totally. Like what was the last time you saw a cheetah doing anything other than running down gazelle and like biting its throat. But like cheetahs do a lot of other things. They have complex life and that's like a real, a real point though with with art for people like Darren and John who who are in our piece is like they think the lives of a lot of animals including dinosaurs are a lot less action packed. Then it feels like when you were just looking at the art, then no opening their mouths involving the camera old. It's on the not just killing inflicting that doing things that living animals do the move moving around and sleeping and and finding food and being boring. The time. And you mentioned this earlier, but like I feel like of all the dinosaurs that we don't associate with that kind of like boring activity like tarantulas. Rex ranks like pretty high. Like of all the ones we associate with action and violence, it's t. Rex, absolutely. It's always chomping at something that's its role. Even the end of drastic park is rule is to end the movie by trumping a dentist. One. Right, right. And so when Darren, John writing the book all yesterday's, they obviously wanted to put a China source in there and John based, his t Rex painting on this one skeleton, this kind of famous skeleton that scientists have nicknamed STAN standards. Question aggressive, looking to rent a source in a way. It's go quite a law, long. Scary looking head, and so stand is traditionally depicted doing very nasty things to other animals. But John is is also like pretty adamant like that's not the whole truth of of like who this creature was the probably gonna kill something. Once every two weeks, you know, they spent the vast majority of their life asleep probably with a great big full belly just sleeping on the ground. And so that's how I painted it. So do you have that picture in the book? Yeah, yes. Here's the book. Peaceful. Yeah, it's almost like a cute image just very cute. Yeah. Just like slightly curled up with its little tiny T-rex arms of by its gin. This is like one of John's like favorite pieces from all yesterday's in and he calls it a sleepy STAN. Well, in fact, I mean, this picture, it doesn't even show his teeth once sleeping. Yeah, which I don't think I've ever seen a t Rex picture without it Baring its teeth. Right? Which is stunning to think about that. I've never been now as I see it. I know it's true. I've never seen without its teeth being being being shown in how long they are probably ripping into flesh. But yeah, we just we don't show, whereas just relaxing and that's what they did most of the time. Right. Probably pretty good life, sleepy. STAN, sleepy, stay in the. That's awesome. So if you flip Roman to like the back of the book, there's one more thing that I want to show you. This back section of the book is actually called all today's and and the idea of a hind this part of the book is, is sort of the actualization of that thought experiment that John Conway us to do where you know you're imagining an alien paleontologist from the future who is trying to piece together what the contemporary world, the animals of the contemporary world look like based on fossil evidence. Right? So this this Fisher, I'm looking at now is a is a Mandy, but it's a land grazing land or before. Right. Read that. Can you read the description? They have their this is a solitary Minniti is shown grazing in its mountain home. We only know the skull of this enigmatic or before, basically, like in this case, they're saying like, so with this animal, maybe we only the only thing we ever got was the skull. And so like from that you're trying to make you like, oh, this looks a little bit like a cow skull, and it's totally common and dinosaurs. They only find one little section. It's very rare that we find full skeletons to tell you everything about them. But totally, you could pick up manatee skull and sure enough. You would think that's a, that's a cow. And even if you do find a full skeleton, there are other things that you could still miss totally Elvin has you wouldn't have a trunk to as evidence. So this elephant is the snub nosed weird looking thing. Oh my God. Oh, it's so true. Right. So like a camel, the same way that we don't necessarily wouldn't necessarily know that camel had had humps. You wouldn't know that in elephant had drunk at trunk, which is like such an iconic weird piece of anatomy in the world. It's the thing that you define elephant by, but it's not. It's not. It's not there and therefore it doesn't live at all like an elephant, and it just looks absurd. I really like it. It really sells us, especially with these these speculative imaginings of modern animals really sells the idea of it a lot right. And they, they, they go, I like I like their text on some of these. Like if you've read the swans at like two swans or seeing their long site like four limbs, which they must have used a spear small prey items. One of them has. Just caught a tadpole. One of the mysterious fish of the past. Oh, it's so perfect. Right. So they really, they really embodied this like this. Like, you know this, this futuristic scientist who's trying to sort of piece together. The world that we currently live in now and is making these kind of conceptual leaps from evidence to, you know, painting a real picture of what the world actually looked like, but they're still everyone's doing their best. It's not like making fun of them, realize it just says to with limited information we have, this is what we create, right? I really shows the limits of that information. Oh, it's so cool. It's a good. It's such a good idea to think this way it dislodge is the iconography from your mind to be free. Exactly. I think about him in lots of ways, and that's that's really, really sells it. When you see a modern animal depicted in the traditional ram dinosaur way that I kind of love at aspect of it. Ninety. Nine percent of us Bill was produced this week by Emmett FitzGerald, mix and tech production by Sharieff Yousef music by Sean rail. Katie mingle is our senior producer kolstad as the digital director. The rest of the team includes senior editor, Delaney hall, Avery trouble. Men Taryn Maza. Joe Rosenberg, Vivian Lee and me Roman Mars. We are project of ninety. One point, seven KLW in San Francisco in produced on radio row in beautiful downtown Oakland, California. Ninety nine percents invisible is a member of radio Topi from peo- racks, an independent collective of the most innovative shows in all of podcasting, you can find mall at radio, Tokyo dot FM. You can find the show enjoin discussions about the show on Facebook. You can tweet at me at Roman Mars, and the show ninety nine PI org or on Instagram tumbler and read it to if you're thinking, I need more nine in my life where we have all the old episodes available in new articles about design every couple of days on our beautiful beautiful website. It's ninety nine PI dot org. Radio. Ex-. Also from radio, Tokyo one of the original radio Topi. It's the truth, a beautifully in the titular sleep produced in theology of short scripted stories. Their latest is a four part serial called the offseason. It's a thriller that takes place against the backdrop of the metoo movement. Hi, you're on the air, how hard I say. Yes, thank you. That's a good question. Rita has reaching this level of success been difficult. Of course. I mean, the sit in this field careers. I'm sorry. That question's not for you. This question is for Bris for me. How does you when you try to your former co host in your dressing room? Subscribe to the truth wherever you get your podcast or go to the truth podcast dot com.

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Randall Park Wears White Suits to The Clubs (w/ Randall Park)

Asian, Not Asian

1:19:38 hr | Last month

Randall Park Wears White Suits to The Clubs (w/ Randall Park)

"But i did try and edible For the first time. Yeah and i remember just walking around the casino just like real happy. Come back to another episode of asian asian. Podcast podcast guys now from asia. Talk about issues cares about your host. A and i'm mike is saturday. July twenty four th or coming at you live from all over the world True later really. All of this is an insane so crazy and we'll get to that in a second but before we start. If you're listening to this on your iphones please take a screen shot posted on your instagram stories. Tag at asian asian pod. Tell your friends about it. That's how we get bigger. And i'm also leave a review i. It's literally coming from all over the world because mike. Your new york are guesses in london. I am in hawaii and it's six thirty in the morning right now. And my wifi sucks asset the airbnb so i had to ask a friend who lives here if i could use their wi fi. But they're sleeping obviously and she was like okay cool. I'm just gonna leave the door open or the key by the door. And so i get here. It's so dark and it's like such a quiet neighborhood. And i feel like i was like breaking and entering into this building and i was just thinking about if i got caught by the security or like the policeman or something like that. This would be like the dumbest burglary in the history of crime. You know because. I'm here with the yod. Cast like i'd rather no you don't you don't understand officer you know. It's just a podcast. Yeah they all say that nice try. Yeah was here to steal her macbook you know but were here and Obviously at the top we always do the patriots shout so we're going to give a shadow news members patriot. If you don't know what that is the best way to support this podcast. We are completely independent. So you patriot dot com slash asia asia pod and you can subscribe to the podcast. Give us five bucks ten bucks a month. And in return we slide into your. Dm's you get bonus episodes and one of the other rewards. You give shout out on our podcast so our four newest supporters this week. Elian we're gonna do is we're going to necessity purely based on your last name. We love this game. it's very very problematic. Quick yes matic. But we're getting very good at it here. we go. i got kimberly. Ob lana ob. Lana that's a tricky one. That's that sound on hawaiian to me. For some reason that sounding that is sounding very like pacific islander to me. I'm just gonna throw it out. Pacific micronesian maybe. This is someone you broke into her apartment. Just yes because my friend. Evelyn does it layer li li. I think it's i think it's the l. e. yup l. e. vietnamese if it is but i'm not sure maybe scott you got got you nailed it. Then we have a john conway just like okay. This is a regular. He sounds like a quarterback's name or something. Just like a regular clearly. A chinese dude. Who's just like. I need a white name. John conway bank name. Yeah this is. Like an nfl quarterback from the seventies sideburns john conway leading for rushing yards from the bucks slow down. We'll take your football asian guy and we love that. Thank you so much for your love and finally young. Have this week's pretty easy. We got susanna. This is a good one we l. i. l. i. That's chinese always always taiwanese okay. I'm just out there. They like they like the taiwanese people like it when we get specific like that. So we're going to go ahead. Say she's taiwan a it's the best thing in the world when you can call someone who is taiwanese taiwanese and they get so happy. The i they get so porn. I and on and on this podcast recognize taiwan as a sovereign nation. We say that. I don't know living just so you know we recognize security council. Okay moving onto the store of the week before we bring her guests on so yeah. I mean i'm excited about this. Because okay so you just said all the listeners up. You're in hawaii right now. Living your best life investment you were living some of your worse life on the way over there. Because you went to vegas. I would vegas i and okay so last week. I didn't tell you the story because it has just happened and it was really scary. And i didn't wanna talk about it. It was too raw. I wanna talk about it on the podcast. But so i. I went to vegas with my high school friends because a lot of listeners. I'm trying to rekindle old relationships Have been on. Put on hold because of comedy. I've said no to a lot of weddings and just really put my friendship on. I don't like that i'm old now. I'm trying to be friends with them again. So i said why. Don't we go to a boy. Stripped vegas because that's what people do movies right so we go straight boys and in movies. They always work out perfectly as we all know. Yes yes hijinks happen. Yeah so. I go and again. My friends are nice from the state of ohio. That's where i grew up there married. They're sweet sweet boy so we go and we're drinking and we're going clubbing and all this stuff and it's fine on. We're having a good time and one of the nights after we go see stevie okay by the way he was okay. I don't know i'm not. I'm too old for his music. But your and my friends were getting hammered. And it's because. I think i don't know it seems like you're married you know. Maybe you can attest to this but it seems that maybe they're not happy and they're just drinking so much it's crazy drinking so much that's what you do. You get so unhappy when you're married and you start drinking heavily. Yeah they were drinking so much and When i was on my way home. We're like the club. We left the club. And we're like let's go home because one thirty and it's which means it's four thirty new york time so let's go home recently at a time and they were like no. We're gonna go to the ship club and you know me. I'm i love clubs. I'm also very organized person. And i said listen boys. I've got a strip club plan for us tomorrow. I met a reservation at this four. Hey i made a reservation at this four nude spot i cannot believe what did you go to resume did you. Did you open tables. It's a different apricot open asshole and you can't believe you get apps with that. Okay okay you know. It's hilarious on the of asian. And they give you. It's like you pay for like a table in the twenty years. And i sent a separate email saying hi. Could we get twenty white clauses. Twenty jobs the the strip club was like we're gonna make so much money off of these new. I cannot believe it yes continued so but just for some context. You're supposed to make a reservation because they pick you up and stuff and also there's a lot of shady places in vegas right anytime you're trying to tap into the vice industry. I think you need to be careful no matter where you are right so i did my research. I made a reservation. I said hold on boys when we go tomorrow. I have this whole thing planned out. We got a limo. It's going to be amazing. And they were like no. We're hoarding now. We have to go. And so i was going to go with them but again comedy saved me mike. You and i had a podcast recording very early the next morning after go home and read some of these articles about asian-americans because listen listen. I've got to go home. I've got break into someone's apartment. So i can record this podcast so i didn't go with them because i was like i have to wake up and like do the podcast right so i go to bed and then they come home like six. Am and shit. I'm like what's happening. Like my first thought was i was like. Oh no. did they do something bad that they're like because they're home at six. Am but what i found out is that they got there and they were scammed dude. They got there. They were forced into a vip room. They were separated immediately for studio up and then they had them. I guess they were like it didn't help that. They were drunk. I guess they took their phones on their wallets. And sure look if you get into. A vip room forced five hundred dollars. We're like hey come on. In or whatever right i understand it right. Is it a scam. I don't know it's a gray line. But like what what was really fucked up as they took their wallets and they just started charging amounts on their wiping their cards so they will cup with like a three. I i should say this. I'm gonna say this three thousand dollars. Yeah on their credit. It's insane right so like they were again. These are nice boys from ohio. Okay they don't know is going on. Okay they're thinking about tractors and shit. They're like they don't know what the first thing about trackers ordering white clause yup yup so they're freaking out there like. Oh my god. This is the big city. We're being scammed in the vegas city by the way but it's not they're freaking out and it really put a damper. This is day two out of three. Or maybe four. And this is a really put a damper on the trip. And i was telling you this one of the guys. He was so scared and shook. He flew home early. He was like he was like i. Just i just got to get a hold of my wife man. I gotta get hold of my wife. He's just outside baby. Take me back. Okay yeah sorry about that. Listen think about it. We got to travel points from. Yeah yeah oh. I think maybe because they share a credit card. Maybe he knew that she would something. So yes that's how this happened but yeah dude. I don't know. Have you had anything like that happened to you. I have not. I mean. I have had have been kicked out of a strip club which which was completely completely justified and we were doing anything bad. We were just like being just three assholes in the we were just like hanging out in the bathroom just like giggling like the bouncer burst in was like you guys get out of here and i was like you're right. We're totally you're right. You're absolutely right. I feel like i almost like you know what. What point is someone gonna kick us out. Because i feel we're getting we're disrespectful in here. We like we spent like no money at all. My gosh. just we're like the opposite. We're completely just draining them. you know. they're just like ruining the vibe so that's probably the most of it. It's interesting to me because you were telling the story before we start recording and you're saying you know hey new york of teaches you a little bit about what's a scam. What's not a scam. And i don't know if. I don't know how we handle it. I don't really think that being in new york for this long. I'm not like super street smart. You know when when when you when you're growing up as a kid and you feel like a street smart guy is like a guy with a fedora. And he's got a chain like watch and he's like pointing me like hey kid comey left here for eleven years and i have a fedora. But that's the extent of my of my street. Smarts really feel like. I kind of know when someone's gaming me and mainly it's just like leave me alone. I don't want any of this shit. Yeah but i feel like if i was in vegas. Hey if i was getting drunk and we're stuff was happening. Who knows what would happen to me. What about you do you feel like i remember. You said you've been you kind of gone through this before. Yeah younger dude. Actually and what's happening exactly exact same. Nineteen or twenty in japan when it was like try to like a hostess club and i was like trying to like trying to tap into japanese culture. Because i didn't feel very japanese like i'm going to go do this. Like all these old salarymen who hate their wives go do go and i got scammed like eight hundred bucks but the same thing happened to me so i think i would have been a little better at it but again they were drunk. And you know. I i wanna actually talk to our guest about this because hey you know. He's from la. That's real. close to vegas. i he. He's a little older than me but he's looking good all right which means if he goes to vegas. Hey he's having a good time all right and so having a good time like a time. So i feel that this guy. He he's also had such a long career he may have been a strip club. Dj point actually. I wouldn't be surprised when be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised because this guy has done everything. He's he's literally gone from starbucks to movies i. I wouldn't be surprised at that night. You've got in trouble in vegas mike. He was the bathroom. Han washy guy. He's he's like. He's like aqua zhou. You the towel like exactly and so our theme this week is is getting scammed vegas asian or not asian and our guest today. Oh my god. Mike i cannot believe he is here. I can't believe it he was he. He didn't sign until two minutes later after promise time and i thought he wasn't coming and makes it makes sense. Why would he come. Why why would you come. Why would i come. I'm no this guy is an amazing comedian actor writer producer. He was asian jim from the office. That's his primary credit. That's our primary grades agent. Jimmy woo marbles wanda vision. He's he's written and directed and always you maybe guys give it up for the hilarious randall. Pau oh my god is what's going on. I can't believe you're here. This is crazy. I can't believe i'm here either. I mean i mean in that. I'm a big fan of your Your podcast and this is really a. This is really a joy so thank you for adults. Amazing you were telling us before that you you listen to the show and i mean i can't believe it because only people i swear i. I have a conspiracy theory in my mind. That aren't nineteen which is like our sort of hosting slash. Analytic site is just telling us that people are listening to the show and actually no one paying money and it just keeps going up. And it's just like it's just like my two friends in austin and against randall. Park which is amazing. Ha you guys are you. Guys are really really funny. And you're a great team and and you guys have you know such and you keep it light go there you go places but you always keep it funny and fine and i think the quality of the show Just defies the you know the the the numbers rentals reading off script right. Now i'd say this Yeah so i you know. I wanna get in there and and you listen to our story here. You know. you're you're you're a true a. asian culver city. That's like real shit right there. That's not just the hollywood bullshit that culver city so yeah. Yeah born and raised. I mean i guess it was the last time you went to vegas. Even have you been you still alive Last time i went was gosh. It must have been about eight years ago. Eight almost almost a decade ago. Yeah it was for friends A friend's bachelor okay. There we go. That's the mind i'm looking for. That's what we're looking for. But it wasn't one of those like strip club go you know it was. It was a pretty tame. You know like okay. But i did try and edible over for the first time first time. Trying an edible ever really. I think it was yeah. It's about ten years ago and it was my first time. Yeah and i remember just walking around the casino just like real happy all i remember. That's all i remember i. I don't think we went strip club. I mean if i did. I remember that i. I've only gone so maybe a strip club like three times in my entire life. And i'm just not that into you know. Yeah i feel you are you. I'm the i'm the dude. My move is. I will actually sit close to the stage because then i'm only rolling out money and then nobody's bothering me. That's it's almost like a little secret because nobody's gonna come to you and right right ass you because you're like. Yeah you're you're busy but you're only giving at a time. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. i mean. I wouldn't even do that. I would like just kind of find the darkest corner wedge myself at that corner the whole night and hope nobody like approaches me and i don't have to approach anybody and i'll just sit with drink at parties. You know me at any social event. That's what i do. Yeah how did he bring. A bunch of doritos in here did you. Do you have friends though. So i'm supposed to go to. I'm supposed to go to the part. It's kind of up in the air and like listing out all the different activities. You can do. And then one of them is a strip club thing and we've talked about it on the show before about how there's always the guy who's like really excited to go and then he disappears for awhile. Was anyone in your party was. Was anyone your party like that. Where he's like. I can't wait. And then like he just gone for two days and then you know now now it was. It was pretty again. It was pretty tame. I mean it wasn't like it wasn't crazy. I mean i've only really gone to mostly taint it. It's kinda sad. It's really tame very christian seeming. Y'all party somebody pulls guitar. No religious or anything like that but they've they've been odd to be christian and even my party was like winter dinner with a bunch of my friends. old friends One of my friends lost his wedding ring in the the sand because the dinner was on this beach and we spent the whole We spent the whole bachelor party trying to find because we rely on. Know your wife's going to think we went to sack strip club you met some you know and something crazy happened when really it was like he was just talking to animated and his hand and and we couldn't find it ended and then we went to a bar and then we went home. I love how. I love that i love your you know why. I'm so glad you're here. You're you really are emblematic of us. You know just a good boy. A straight guy. That's like you randall. You know you you. It's interesting you are who you play on tv. You know like. I feel like if i asked asian. Jimmy woo asian. Have you been club. He's like now. I think i'd rather read read leviticus. That's what we're gonna do. That's jimmy heard the good news you. I also feel to that. Because you've been like plugged in you know you've been grinding and killing it for so long that i'm just imagining at all these different bachelor parties lee isaac chung there and just like you know just like random really famous asian just hanging out also you know not not really not really a bunch of neighborhood folks you know. Thank you so when you say that you know what i think. That's part of the reason why i'm a fan of podcasts. Because when i listen to you guys. I kind of see myself in you guys a lot especially like the journey. You know what. I mean the johnny and i'm like oh gosh i remember i remember i remember i was going through the exact same thing you know you've had you've had a tough life then i will say oh. It's horrible. I i wanna get into some of these things here. First of all food is making fun of me. Can i call you young kind of like my older brother. that's all. that's what's what's what a younger brother calls an older brother. I never had an older brother. That's right yeah. Yeah he would look and be like that's like yeah that'd be kinda weird put go for it. I told you think it's weird. But yes i'm gonna do it anyway. So we're we're talking about vegas and we were doing a lot of research on you and right ambiance. All right you we love you. Go in these podcasts. And people people just kind of asked you these basic. Ask questions about your career and i was like. I don't wanna do that. Horrendo- okay. I wanna i wanna get to know the real rancho and one thing that our attention was that on one of the podcast. I believe you said you'd never been korean. Clubbing is that true. That's true that's not true. I've been cutting once okay. Yeah okay was this was. I think i think it was early. Two thousands l. a. s. You got your diesel. Lay out for us okay. So von dot chat diesel different time. Where at least in the k. Club scene in la there was one club called the privee. That was really popping. It was the club and everybody went. And i always felt like i wasn't that like i don't know i always felt like i wasn't korean enough for the koreans you know and i i want it to be down you know so i had. I had a korean friend who actually was like korean. You know and he was just like let me take you to the club. And i was like hell. Yeah you know. I i could like experience my people you know yeah and and i remember i like i was like for some reason. I thought it'd be cool to dress in all white zip. I haven't dressed in all white or before that. I don't even know how. I got all had all white. So it's like i'm going to wear all. Why are we are we. Are you wearing all white suits or are you wearing jeans. A white button and and and white like pants. You know okay. So you're looking like a cheesecake factory. Waiter i'm thinking more like ditties parties. You know you know what i mean. I love cheesecake factory. But i remember and remember. This is like early. Two thousands so unsure. It's different now. But i remember going there and i walk in and everyone is dressed in all black moscow. And i'm like what the hell so the way. The waiter dude takes us to our table and immediately you know like my friends start like booking girls and they just see me kinda. I don't know i didn't know how to feel about that. You know what i mean like. I don't. I felt like kind of weird to me but i also was like. Oh well this is just how it works. And i should be comfortable with this but i feel so weird about it and one of my friends saw me kind of sit in by myself and he was like i'm going to book a girl and like oh okay. Okay and he okay. He gets the weight or to to bring this girl. And there's a bottle of crown royal on the tape of course as an and the. The bottle cost like four thousand dollars. Oh my god. It's expensive fruit. That costs like you know three thousand dollars a yup and she and the thing was you're supposed to. I poured her a shot of this. Like four thousand dollars crown royal and myself a shot and she downs it. She looks at me and then she just saw. Oh who's this guy wearing all black lab and so and so far our fans don't know just so you know that randall is not relating some sort of like human trafficking story. This is booking this greenberg booking is korean clubbing. So what's supposed to happen. Is the the guys get a table. Costs like eight thousand dollars to sit down with a bottle of crown some pairs and the the waiter has kind of like intermediary. I guess you could say and gets girls to sit down. These are just like regular people who are just like regular girls. There's an who work at the club or something and they sit down and you don't have to. You don't have to talk to the guy you'd have to drink with the guy but it is a free way to get free drinks and meet dudes wearing all white and you can get up if you want to. Two girls can book guys right okay. Youngest remember also thinking like okay. This this booking thing is just not me. I'm gonna go out and my kind of maybe ask people if they wanna dance you know. And i don't know if this is still the case like the but i remember asking like two or three girls if they wanted to dance and they literally. They put their hands up like this. You're off and i guess it was the thing at the time were they just put their hands up in your and walk off right. Yeah that happened three times. And i was like this my god yeah and then i went and found dark coroner bag reno's and i just the night sucked what is where did you have. Did you have a move. Did you just like you know like did you say would you have a line you would say or you know. That's a thing. I don't know i don't have it lines. I generally i'm not. I'm not like the type to approach strangers. And yeah you know but i think because of the night and it was my first time eta korean club and and i thought you know like you know. This is a special thing. I'm kinda drunk. I'm gonna just a pro approach win. Yeah on yeah exactly express. Okay so are you. Still friends with this This korean guy your childhood friend. W- yeah. I grew up with him. That's awesome is it. Lee isaac chung. No right that's i mean. That's amazing do you. have you never been. You're gonna take twice in new york after we had our conversation. Okay wanted to experience well because in new york random. I don't know if you've heard about like in new york. Sometimes it's hard to get and if you're not korean so check your right. I wanted to maybe experienced that racism. So i went in there but they let me in school but i mean i think i don't dance with the negroes. No dance with my boys. But you're right. It's hard to in that in that environment with the music so loud. Because i do think that i ball two thousand randall. Park in the all express white outfit. He's a sad thing about that story. Is i bet you have amazing dance moves. That will kill you to hardee's but they're just not they're not gonna kill at in that situation because that clubs being like sexy and cool and i feel. Dancing inherently is initially. It's not sexy. You know you're just like having a good time and so i appreciate that. I do have amazing. Dan do you really. I wouldn't be because you like. You're like you're like a obviously an actor performer. You're you know you're in a and did you have like move when i when i was in elementary schools in this break dance chande. I thought this is like eighty. This is like late. And and so. Yeah i mean i. I'm by no means like a break dancer anymore. That's basic maybe you. You should have girls that these girls missed out on. I mean can. I just say to that so far as us travelling back in time through the two thousands and now to the eighties. This is just an amazing episode of fresh off. The boat could write this story really also heard and we were like snooping around on the internet. Used to stand up. That's not really your thing. I did yeah. I mean we wanna talk. Yeah yeah and hearing about you. Guys on your podcast. I mean that's what that's what really takes me back. You know because. I did it for probably good six years you know. Yeah when when did you start. Because like you're i guess you're you're ashes and then you started doing stand up just because like ali doing well. I was acting but i wasn't acting professionally at the time i was doing i was doing theater in l. a. and i was doing improv and it just felt like a natural thing to get into. If you're super comedy you know. I mean i was like and superindent comedy like i watched every late night. Set of anybody who you know and i had all the albums of every comedian now and and i and i and i had come from a writing background so i was like. Oh well the cool thing about standard you just right and you perform you know. You'll have to wait for anybody. Tell you you know you don't have to book a venue you don't have to like you know market the show you just. I mean i guess you do to some degree but but Yeah so i got into it and around the same time. Allie was getting into it but she she lived in The bay area. And i was doing it out of la soma. So yeah i mean. I love for a time i really loved it. I i thought this was gonna what what what was what i wanted to do. For a mile. I really when was like what are you doing it because i feel like with alli wong you guys came up together you i feel like you guys were doing stand up like i call it like post that fan but before ronnie chang and it's weird and it was all before rosh house an mkx. Mid to late we started in two thousand fourteen and that was so different from now which is twenty twenty one and i don't hear a lot of stories about that era where you probably doing it. I don't know late two thousands or something like that is that is that You know no more like more like mid mid her early to mid. I'd say when. I started maybe two thousand two something like that. What was what was that. Turns back down for like an asian american comedian because it was really weird for me in two thousand fourteen and i can't even imagine you know what that might have been like for you or was awesome because you're on the west coast. It's you know there are a lot of agencies. Well yeah. I mean i i mean for me it was it was just you know the grind. It was the same thing as the same thing in that. You know you you know. I had heard that like if you're if you want to be a stand you just got to perform all the time you know and then la it's like harder to come by then in new york like performance opportunities. Oddly even though it's la of all places like it's harder you know so. I'd be doing open mics everywhere. And and and and at the time. And i don't know if this is still the case but like all of the clubs would have their like asian night a like chopsticks sad sad to report that those names and shows still exist today there on those are exactly what's happening right. Oh yeah i mean. Even at the time. I felt like oh man. This is bs because it's like why can't we just. They just let us perform in any show but at the same time i was like oh but this is also great. Because i can't get time in any other shows so so. If i just do these shows i could get time you know and And and those were those those shows. I think the improv and the laugh factory. They both had a those types of shows and And you know. I ran my own room for a while. Yeah and Had friends who ran the room was always. You know just basically always performing back then. It was like way more. I don't know how it is now in terms of like racism like in in jokes. Cnn people sets but back then it was way more kind of loose with that and and It was it was pretty common. I think especially in that in that you know kind of open mic level. You know you a lot more. And and i don't know it's just a different time so in my in my head at the time it was like look i mean the Deep down i think these jokes american hack every now and then you come across a really great one. And i'd be like that. That's that's a smart joke. Even though i'm like deeply hurt that's how you know that's how you know you're a comedian. Because like every once in a while you're like well that was really a really unusual. Take you know give you respect. I've heard them all you know shit. Hurry i'm all but but yeah. I would say like from what i'm hearing you know. And and even from your podcast. It's not much different. You know it's not much different as just a grind grind finer. You find your tribe and you come up with that with that class of people and we'll today. I think the biggest difference from what i started to now is like i say this all with one hundred percents confidence but like mike. I don't know if you'd agree. But i feel today. It's like kinda cool to be an asian comedian. Whereas like when i started it was one hundred percent not and you almost kinda wanted to like pied that if you wanted to get booked for some reason you know there is definitely that there is that way you know. You know people of not just asians but like You know people who are just like. I'm not going to talk about race not going to try out race because i don't want you use that as a crutch cina i'm going to you know Yeah yeah there was definitely that i and the scene was real. It was really burgeoning when When i was doing it so the there was almost like these two schools. The club comics young the end the comics and the comics were were often like very experimental. Sometimes just straight up not finding you know a crank because they had a crowd because they were weird enough you know yeah that it was like art you know like the club comics and the ones i respect at the most were the ones who could do both. Who could every every every room you know. Those are the ones that and that was the kind of comedy i wanted to be Yeah but yeah. Yeah that was Fun times. I definitely hear you. I think i think at the very least people are at least in. New york are aware that like i feel before you be able to say. Oh you know like it was in the mainstream. Mind that there's you know. Asian people are certain way and now there are such things as cool asians and instagram famous. Asian deejays and that sort of thing so now people are starting to think. Oh i can't just like lay out all my usual asian racism. There's yeah there's this more of us now on. Yeah there's more of us on social media you see all these things. There's more awareness. It sounds really dumb. But it's like oh yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean humans. I either recently. Like i was i was in a room. It wasn't there weren't a lot of asian people there. But i had made some comments about. How like blonde haired girl like asian girls who like there her blonde like they do anal or something and they like laughed and got it and i was like oh. I can't believe you know what i'm talking about. 'cause they know enough people to know that like all know the artsy type with the tattoos are going to do something a little more. Turn it of and by about sex. But you know what i mean. But it's like it was cool. It was cool that that got through to non. Oh yeah yeah for sure. I think yeah. It's definitely i mean. It's not just stand up for for asian americans. But i think just the times have changed amata ways. Yeah summer's here in the living. Ain't easy if you've got a swamp ass you stay on top of your sweaty bottom. Try refreshing spray from a hello toshiba day keeper sweaty crack. Clean all summer long with the brand new hello to she. Three point zero modern attachment. It's stylish eco-friendly refreshing. Little shower for your ass. Hello to she. Three point zero cleaned soggy butts champ. But it doesn't stop there. Oh it cleans itself with the smart spray. Trademarked automatic self cleaning nozzle. No one wants to work up a sweat in the hundred degree heat. That's why the hello toshiba attached to your existing toilet with no electricity or extra plumbing needed and hello to she. Cuts toll. paper used by eighty percent. So it'll pay for itself in a few months plus hello to she's got your ass covered with a sixty day risk free guarantee and a twelve month warranty already got hello to she on your trigger. Asked that a new three point. Oh motto if you're new revolution joy millions of happy. Hello to she customers right now and have a clean boat with every flush defeat swamp. Ask go to hello to she dot com slash a to get ten percent off plus free shipping. This is a special offer for our listeners at hello to she dot com slash a. n. For ten percent off hello to she. Dot com slash. A and. i'm glad you brought up because now we're going to ask randall about butts stuff. Tell you know he was ready. He called my bluff media. We do you remember any of your old bits because you. You just mentioned something about how. I think aging comedians and people are. We've heard it all. And i think that's actually the reason why a lot of asian comics don't do asian jokes for a while is because it's hard to not do the things that even the the bad white comic is doing and so you just kind of not go there and then after a while and only after a while like myself. Recently in the last couple years have i been like. I'm gonna go so specific about me that no one else can follow me into where i'm going to go and that's it's not easy to do but i was wondering we have we. Everybody has a mean food. We have like expired asian bits bits that like just. Don't this'll make sense anymore. At the time they made sense you know a couple of years ago and now we just don't do them for whatever reason and i don't know if you have any jokes like that or if you know if you remember all your old set you know what i'm saying. Oh my god. I mean i'm sure i did. I'm sure i'm sure. I had like a lot of jokes that the problem with my part of the reason why i you know eventually stopped doing. It was because i was well. I wasn't that good you know. And i was so no seriously i was. I was so influenced by so many comedians. That i love you know that i never really found my own voice. Like i didn't have my you know i like. I love the absurdity. And i love like just like those one like the mitch. Hedberg the style of comedy. But then at the same time. I love like the david tells who were just like super dirty and It was a huge margaret. Show fan obviously right the queen. You know And i just. I just didn't have my own voice. I kind of had all different types of jokes and the set was very weird. You know. I was stocking like ten minutes before you came on. I saw this joke that you did. I don't know what it was. It was you're talking about how you couldn't trade lunch with your friends when you're younger because your mom would pack you. Korean food and punchline was like hey man can i. Can you give me that bag of doritos for this cup of otter nipples those do you remember that one your nipple now can be now. White kids are probably going to asian asian kids and go. Hey man you got any of that. Doesn't i now. I know that was i do. Remember that one. Yeah trading food with kids. And and i think the tag was like even the other asian kids would be like what the hell away from me or something like that korean kids at this joke. I do remember this joke. I had and i i would. I would so perplexed because people wouldn't people it had it had a battery action like from the audience. And i just thought it was a good joke. The joke was That i used to drink a lot And i would get drunk a lot in this one night. I got so drunk that the next morning i woke up and i was laying next to my grandmother and i was like. Oh man how did i get underground. That's funny this is. This is like a david thing like he just keeps going further. And what am i doing in korea it off but i remember like whenever every time i do that it would just bring. It would just kill the set. You know like not feel good man something about me and my energy that That people just didn't. I mean on top of the joke being a little dark but i tell you have like a nice boy energy. I saw you do that joke. I in my research and you had lawn like you know like You know some baggy jeans and track jacket. And i was like. I don't believe this guy has sex with his grandmother. Comedians who can do dead grandma jokes and community. Who can't you know how did grandma. I don't think i was. A comedian. Could pull that joke off yet. I was like influenced by comedian to kurt. And i think that was parnham. You know Yeah we also wanna talk about your career which has been. I mean swear of god i think you were doing a podcast with with david chan and he was talking about how he was like watching you before even really famous and i feel the same way i feel like i kept i would i would just like turn to my wife and be like there's this asian guy i see in everything and i don't know his name but he's in tons of shit and i'm just gonna like you know i just i was just like true detecting. It was connecting the dots. Okay this it looks like he's just recently moved to maybe the south because he's doing a lot of things in the south right now and i and you've been you've been grinding for a long time and i just wanted to share the story about when funai me me and my wife went to go see always be my maybe. We made a point of watching it in theaters. Eaters went to like awesome a theater in the in the in the financial district and i knew it was going to be good because as soon as ninety three 'til infinity came on i was like they know exactly what they're doing One just run to stop it right there and it's going to be good and of course it was amazing but you had a very particular action to this. Yes i started crying randall. i started growing. Well you don't want it was. It wasn't even. I wasn't crying. Because i didn't think it was funny but it was really the first five. Minutes is a montage of your childhood with ali or i forgot her. Character's name sasha that's right and you guys are like kids and you're like this montage of like you guys are both like eleven and you're like going on a date in san francisco. You ask some money for your dad you're doing you're on the trolley. You're getting candy or whatever it is you know we. We always talk about agent representation. But i was just like you never see like little asian kids having like an innocent play date in the city. You never see. But it's so real. Because like i did that you know did that too. But it's never on tv in a genuine way and we're like three minutes into a comedy movie. And i'm like holding my tears back because i'm next to my friend and his wife and i didn't want to be a weirdo but just like yeah man. I was like i was like i was taking a hit from my pin. This is my head back. he's just coming. Yup i dunno. I'll share that with you. Thank you thank you. That's really sweet. I mean yeah. I mean i think there was a lot of that stuff that we put into that move. Just i mean we took so much from just our lives that once it out there was a lot of things like that from from asian-americans specifically of and they were like yeah like innocuous things like that just like you know little little details that that people like really held onto those little details and and that was pretty cool this summer. It's been easier than ever to drop our personal carotenes but with your person as grooming kit from hawthorne. It's easy to stay on track. Hawthorne is a premium grooming brand that tailored your personal carotene to your unique profile. I you take the quiz. They asked me things. Like what kind of hair i have. How do i feel about sweat. What you care most about in your deodorant These are the big questions in life. And that's the kind of stuff that they take into the algorithm and figure out. What kind of stuff you need. It was actually really fun and at the end. 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I love your really almost quitting. Now are you know we just a dream at the data at this point so fantasy. I wish i hope one day quit. You had this funny story about how you you you. You're trying to quit acting and you're like okay. I'm gonna go architecture school. Yeah and then you're in. You're in a physics class and you couldn't pass the class because you weren't you weren't a student anymore you were just out of the mindset. Yeah and i related to that so hard. Because i was like i remember. There was a certain point in my i was in college still and i was like doing. Pretty bad in my pre med classes. I was still like. Maybe i could still be a doctor. I remember sitting going into a physics class and and as soon as the as soon as the professor said those a ball rolling down a friction this plane. I was like nope. This is not for me but do you remember exactly like the the was there a particular problem or something that in physics where. You're like fuck this. I don't remember the specific problem. But i do remember. It was like literally the first day of that class. And yeah and i. I did not understand a word was saying and and after i didn't come back after that because i was like why you know i'm to dom from like a yes and up for the past like two and a half years i was just too dumb and auditioning and doing these things that were just such a different part of the brain that I had lost it. I had lost You know and. I used to be really good at that stuff. You know when. I was in high island and But i just it was gone. It was withered away. So i was kind of like in a way fate kinda just pushing me back towards this pack because dan nothing else the auto for the world did that did that freak you out though because i feel like part of know going back to earlier. You're like when you said. Oh you guys aren't really going to quit part of me and mike the reason why we're not successful because you know we we got. We got immigrant parents okay. We don't come from money and sometimes we don't a lot of times we don't believe in ourselves and we have to hear it from other people and i think sometimes even though you know i have a tv writing job. That's kind of hard to get and worked very hard to get it. I still in my head. I'm like okay. We're this doesn't work out. Like i can get an mba or like. I can go back to like data analysis in your mind is in my mind but when i heard your story i was like. Oh my god. I don't even know if i know how to do. Like these linear regressions anymore. You know what i mean like. I don't even know. I don't know if i can do. I don't k- means cluster analysis. Whatever like i might have forgotten and that really scared me to be like. Oh i can't go back anymore. I think i'm just in this. You have that in your mind. Do you feel like you know what. Maybe i won't get any more marvel roles and do you know what i'm saying i don't it's kind of. It's kind of weird. it's kind of. I don't know i don't have that worry. That have to quit and do something else. But i do have Well two things. I know that it. It's inevitable that things are going to stop one day. I mean that's just you know the nature of life you know it's just gonna stop and and i do and i do know that it you know the whole thing ebbs and just from being at this long enough yeah it all ebbs and flows right at. There's this periods where it's just like nothing's working out and and i feel like in those periods like even like it's just human so humans it'd be like oh my god i'm don you know down and even i go through that you know and i think anyone in it goes through a version of that you know no matter what kind of place you're at in in the business and the and i think just the key is is the just stay in it you know and and once you're dumb like like i was. It's like you have no choice. Who'd this thing about being dumb thing. It's so true. Because like you know. I got i got my. I got my day job. Still which i like and i think i'm good at but i was thinking that if i didn't have this kind of little path that i'm on i don't know what what else i would offer. I don't think i could do anything. I i think my backup plan would go back to high school. I have no idea about nothing. You know what i'm saying. I just can't put that into my brain anymore. Like you know everything to me. A joke is this. This is all i have now. Yeah yes through. It's everything else has atrophied. I think that's a good thing. Now you know. I think that's a good thing. 'cause i'd say the same thing goes for doctors you know same thing goes for lawyers like at a certain point they're like this is the s. I wanted to do something else. But they really. They can't do anything else you know. You're on a path you know. You're on a pat on a path and that's a good thing that's a good thing. Yeah definitely don't want any doctors coming up with standup it. So stay in your lane Randall i wanted to ask you this. You know you a lot of times in your interviews you talk about sort of the long grind that you've had to sort of you know withstand to get to where you are and i remember on one of the podcast listening to you. Know you're comparing your career like or not comparing but you had just mentioned stephen young and how he kind of just skyrocketed and he got a lot of stuff going on and he admits that themselves. I read art. And that's super awesome. And i wonder you know and i think for us to even stand up. I had a handful of friends who just got shit right away. Like two three years in and the rest of us are south the grind. And that's at the time you're jealous but now that i'm like eight years in i looked back and oops. Oh my alarm going on I look back and You know sometimes the grind is tough but because you grinded randall. Like you're in everything and then the you're you're in everything that there's like a tick talk trend based on you right just. You're you're an eminent music video. You're in i carly you're in like hey our producer on all these things that you're in and I wonder what to ask you like you know when you look back on your career. Would you have if you do it again would you. Just because you've i'm sure because donald crazy little parts you have these crazy stories and if you could do it again as you just do the same way or do you still think like man. It would have been awesome if i could just get something two years into everything. Well i you know. I really think like that. The way it happened for me is the way that it was post to happen for me. You know because. I don't like if it like if like stephen. For example i mean he's he's super talented. He's super good looking. He's a it makes sense that right off the bat you know that he'll he'll get something he has a mitch just the maturity about him in a very kind of i don't know there's a lot of wisdom in that guy you know and so they so he could handle that you know whereas i think i. I don't think i handled it down. You know and you're aware you were wearing whites. Then he's not doing that. And i. And i think yeah and the benefit of that of that path for me is that yeah i. It's like i got to experience a lot of things. I got to get better like slowly over time. I got to get become more confident and that was something. I severely lacked at the beginning. I you know it's just kind of in my nature to kind of to to want to be better but not feel like i'm there yet you know and i think slowly over time like i just started becoming more confident and more Feeling like i don't know not not not feeling like i don't necessarily i still feel like an outsider in a lot of ways in this business but but i also feel like i understand the business now. I kid now and that would in a happened. Had i not had this kind of slow build over time. I one thing. I've always you know you. You definitely have the slow build. I feel you are. You're in a lot of things because you're always such a Asset to everything. I've ever seen you in is better because you're in it. Okay now. he's in it in this. This will be good. The rest of this will be trash and this of course it is. You always do that now crap. There's a lotta crap out did you. Did you feel like you know. Was your goal always to be okay. I'm i'm going to go in. And i'm going to try to become like this marquee name or or is it like you know. Hey at a certain point. I'm just going to be a working actor. And i'm gonna be able to do what was your was your standard sort of like i'm going to have a good living off of this or was this. I gotta go for the brass ring. You know never for the brass ring But i you. I think it it evolved over time like at the beginning literally like i just need to make some money you know like just to make money and and then at a certain point it was just like yeah i just want to. I just wanna work consistently enough to pay rent. And then i got married and i was like oh just right to you know to and then i had a kid and and you know it kind of like the you know i just want my my goals kind of changed a little bit but i think ultimately the through line was it was always like i really just want to have as much fun as possible in this business. And if to mean fun- fund men doing new things trying new things working as much as possible and because because not working sucked but just working and working at a point where it's like. Oh i just wanna work with people i like. I actually like have that that possibility. You know where. I could actually work with people. I like you know. Because i'm too old to work with people. I don't like at this point so it just kind of always kind of changed. But i think it was always throughout to like have fun and just try to be happy insane and not depressed. That was really like the through line. Yeah yeah i feel. That is definitely something i mean at least from what i can tell in the entertainment business working with people you like is is like so rare is like such a like a luxury almost. Because there's there's this yeah it seems like it seems like there's a lot of weirdness because lot annoying comedians. That's why mike yeah. Yeah don't have to do this podcast. Anybody would be a booking podcast. Yeah but the cool thing now is like the industry Has has changed enough. That it's like i could. I could work with like my friends. Who are asian. And and you know and thrive you know like. I don't like the always be maybe for example. It's like it's like because when i first started it was like you couldn't expect any sort of success in this business without a white person kind of you know kind of dictating things and it's still. It's still that to a degree but But there's like a little more it's opened up. It's it's starting to open up a lot more Yeah i look. I i do feel too when just go back to that movie for a second. When it came out and released for me. I was more excited about that than i was even about crazy. Rich agents is. Because i was this for us. You know what i'm saying. This is for like west coast california asians and if there's only eight thousand of us who like it only eight thousand. I like it but we're going to really like it and if you don't if you don't like it because you're not you don't know you know what what kind of trigger for me you know. So so. we had a firm film critic on last week. Who is a great for vulture. And among many things his mike's friend not just check and he said something really interesting about movies and i want to ask you about it because you are in the universe. And he was saying that as a critic he was saying that You know in hollywood right now. It seems that. There're all these like upcoming indeed actors and actors who are amazing and like the sort of measurement of making it is once hollywood deems that you're good enough to make it they give you a marvel movie so it's like it's like you have to have a it's like that's how that's how you know you made it in hollywood. If you're in a marvel movie and as a film critic he was saying he didn't like that because things don't have to be zero or an action movie and buildings blowing up or whatever but you're you're in. Mci roadwork those guys. How how has sort of doing being part of the marvel universe something so loved in this country. How has that been like for you. And are you proud it. You know you excited to be a part of it or and also do disagree. Agree with kind of what our critics will saying. I mean i. Don't i yeah i think i i mean i kind of agree in that. It's just such a you know it's just such a machine. You know that light like i mean you could clearly like quote unquote make it and be you know working in an celebrated and not be in the marvel universe. You know there's plenty examples of that and a folks probably won't even like wants to do that you know. And they're still like household names but but as far as my involvement. I love it. i love it here. That marvel yup Ha you're that for you my friend. You know what i like about your character is like because i feel anytime. There's a person of color in a marvel universe. It's has to be like this is not me rag on your rental but you and i both know when they put asian guy or black guy a moral person. They have apps and they're the hottest a better long bay humpbacks. You know what. I'm saying like calicoes and i wish coming out the shop zag always always coming out of the shower you're carrying. Woo is like he wants to be. He's like a to me. He's like a the best example. But he's kinda like asian seth rogan kind of. You know he's kind of has a good barbecue setup for sure harm. Yeah i mean. He's not a superhero. Clearly you know. Although i don't know i i like to think. Bet his subaru if that his super power is like kindness but he on my god. This is so right. Now mike this is so. This is so are five survive. We're just three at the at the book club talking about an art coroner dr corner non alcoholic but yeah like i don't know i i do like that you know 'cause that's a again it's like i'm not i'm not built to be a superhero type of actor you know i'm like a i see myself as more just like a kind of a i don't know like a comedic Kinda utility guy and a lot of ways. So it's like it's and that's fun to me. You know that's fun again just of follow the fun. That's what i try to do. Yeah and and this character is great because you know it's super fun to play like an fbi agent. Who's like nice that now. Yeah i'm gonna have to say ran. I do feel like first of all your. You got the facial hair okay. You're killing it there. Thank you and then i feel. I don't know. I don't know how i i know. A lot of my crean bro friends. They got big frames. I feel like you could if you wanted to. You could pack it on like you got kumail. You've got command potential you sports. Do you ever like you know you ever. I mean i've i've been out here for a while and i've been like exercising a lot. I'm cutting up cutting. Yeah there you go. It goes to with with reynolds yes. saint john's uncle has really good barbecue. Yeah yeah no jamie was going to be wearing tights in the next one i love it i mean i know you're a big person before the pandemic i me and my wife tickets to go see them in jersey read it to to. Yeah yeah. i'm i'm a huge fan for me. Everything you've told the story about how you kinda got converted when you saw them at the rose bowl birded when i 'cause i saw them come in and what people i think if if you can relate to this but what people don't realize that i know i've known about k pop j pop for a long time and all through high school even in college and i thought maybe these guys are just going to be kind of another. You know not a flash in the pan but like just for a second on the american radar because right before you buy right side was he was a hot thing for a second and then he went away and he he was a novelty thing. I think to the american exactly. I thought that was kind of like. Oh maybe this beating me like that. But i saw them when they performed on saturday night live and i was like something really special about them so professional. You know what. I'm saying. They're like weird. How professionally hot. they are. Yeah yeah for sure for sure and yeah i mean do you have. Do you have a favorite. Bts person well you know my bias it. It changes over time. It changes over time. But i think the. I think the v. is mike mike guy. I love his voice i think he's like super handsome. He's he's really funny in like a very understated way. You know like an. He's kind of weird finding which i really funny. He seems like a bit of loaner by nature which speaks to me. You know you can join us on that corner. He's got the magazine. Yeah yeah dr corner like that that kind of bts. So a so yeah. I think he's my guy. But you know i mean i i love them all you. They're so talented. I mean look unbelievably talented. And and once you kind of get to know their personalities that's when it really starts becoming like magical. I think you know because it really is true. Yeah yeah for for me. I like john cook for all. Like i mean he's like my number one you know he's always going to be like my my number one. Yeah yeah yeah. You've got the tattoos. And he's like he's yeah he's so good then but lately. I've been reluctant sugar favorite. Yeah i like him. Because i feel that he's the dude who you know. I don't want to get into the whole masculine feminine thing but i feel he's kind of like the most masculine he's the most like he's not a pretty boy. You know and stuff like that. And and i've been watching because right now. They're kind of releasing a lot of very poppy. Things which is which is totally. And it's been funny to watch sugar kind of like go along with it. Watch them all dance. And you know like with the. I and you know and john cook night. They know their handsome sugars. Just like okay. You know he's he's kind of like the the most. Think curmudgeonly of the group which i really. Yeah larry david of it. But yeah it's like the. I i don't know i think i think they really special and when i when i first heard of them i would. I wasn't into it. I wasn't into k. Pop or them at all. I couldn't even tell the difference between some of them. I was so. I have to say i was the same way because i was so brainwashed to it. Yeah now there's no way there's there's there's like different as know as anything you know. So yeah they're very very different. Actually you know yeah yeah for sure brainwash the word like you. I was seeing through this like american yell quote unquote lands which doesn't tell the difference between asian people. Obviously you know like And but once i alike Got into them. I was like oh my god these. These guys are incredible. Yeah you point. Even where i'm like. I don't even know how they all get along. They seem so different. You know what i'm saying. Because they are they all have different strengths and stuff like that. It's anyways we're getting into. Yeah i remember. You had said david chang podcasts. You were you got into bts and you felt proud to be korean and you know originally. You weren't into that. It's interesting because i don't know too much about. Bts can't really pitch into this conversation. But i will shave. But it will say i will say that it has also. I'm not a fan but has also affected my life. Because i think when i was in vegas we clubbing and i sometimes watch. Bt has music feels like dress like them because it's just nice to have model your fashion off another skinny asian guy you know because all my all my life looking at these like abercrombie models who were like who've got big frames got big. I wanna wear clothes skin guys. Where so i like it. I i was like tucked it into by dress pants and stuff and then I think if i did this in highschool my friends had been like. Oh man you look so asian right now but they were like dude you look at bts member. And i was like. Oh that's so interesting that they said that that is clearly a difference right being like you're so asian versus all your the most popular global pop in and the world like thank you so much sir has a compliment. It is a compliment. And i always i noticed that and i thought that was so interesting just over ten years. Everything has changed. You know we're gonna play a game that we've been trying to play more often. And i think we're gonna make little feature of is called a asia not asian that game And what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring up a couple of things that we've been talking about we're gonna talk about. Is it asian or not asian. This particular sort of this thing. We're going to the three or four things a topic and we just black. Is this black and white. Asian or not asian. It's binary zero one and you can explain lane yourself. You can explain yourself. I feel there is always a right answer. But we're we'll we'll we'll decide this. He's ready to play. Okay okay one is the first. The is this asian or not. Asian white suits asian. Black suits asian. Yes yes Are very asian okay. That's good how i'm gonna have to say. It is asian because in hawaii because in hawaii agents get married on the beach and they're always wearing white suits. That's true but it. But i can see from your experience while you would think this asian because nobody else is worrying forever. Trauma comes bat and it's the rest of my life all right. I guess this one is. Physics is physics. Asian or not as well my my personal experience with physics would say that. It's not asian. 'cause 'cause i'm asian and i couldn't pass it you know i couldn't pass the first day the first eight fuck that but but i would say stereotypically. I think one would say that. It is asian but but because we're breaking stereotypes i will say it's not asian young. There you go there you go all right for you heard it here. Friction this plane. So how about how about this one. This is this asian or not asian kindness the concept and the character traits asia. There is a right or wrong answers. Yeah go ahead. And i would say that the The trade of kindness is definitely asian. I think l picks up. But i don't think you know a weakness away abyss. Kindness is not weakness. But i mean in the ultimate strength. Sort of way your staff. And i'm going to have to. Yeah i'm going to say it's not asian. He can be so mean. we're so mean to take. No that's true random you know. Just think about those three girls say say say no say no to the hand or whatever. The phrase is from the nineties. That's that's true. But i mean if you think about it in a way they were kind of saving me from a really bad. He possibly humiliating experience in leading them. And and and being who knows. I could've ended up dating one and a nightmare because because she would expect me to be wearing black. All what you do not your thing. Constantly putting her hand in my face it would wouldn't be wouldn't be a fun time for me so i think she was doing me a favor. That makes sense because that's a lot of foresight and foresight is variations. That makes a lotta sense. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah for sure and the last one here. A bag of doritos decision about asian asian or not even all flavors include. Gosh right. i think it's i think it's very specific strain of asian. It's definitely my strain of asian. I i'm a dorito. i'm a doritos. Asian and i think i would say the more kind of kind of homey dow kind of neighborhood type of asians. You oversee asian yup. Yeah yeah. I'd say i'd say things like a bag of doritos taco bell. Shit things like that. That's what we came up on so so asian. Very that's our game. Here's a bonus questions just to round it out if you had to go club right now. If i was like randall we're going booking get in the integra and let's do this. What what is your outfit. What is going to be your outfit now. Now yes now now cash. I think we're gonna rental parks out the club over whatever snapchat instagram. What's your outfit. Well you now. I think just to honor my past. I think i would wear the brightest allowed in nepal guy. Revenge revenge white suit got to win the white. You're door exactly. The wife would door and walking it like an all white dog like like Like a bigger. Wow all right. That's amazing. Always be my maybe to just supposed to be it. Amazing randall Thank you so much for during the pockets. We had so much fun is that was that was super fun and thank you vote. Is there anything you'd like to plug or have our listeners. Check out. I mean just the asian. Not asian podcast. Oh wow oh. That's really the first. That's the kindness right there. I get kindness. Yeah right right out. You know we've had we've had pulitzer prize winners. And they didn't do that. Oh my god yes that's amazing and you can. Also that was so fine so fine amazing and you can find us on social media at asia asia part. I'm also on the fumiaki. The abe and you can find me on instagram at nice pants. Please join our patriotic at patriot. Dot com slash. Asian that asian pod lever view. If you're an iphone user. And mike how we're doing another hack city comedy show. I believe august twelve right. Is that right mike. August twelve august twenty. First august twenty. I will be in a union hall union hall in brooklyn so there'll be a ticket link in this episode description or instagram bio link. Randall at the end. Podcast especially comedian on mike and i always like to say hey man. We'll see around in the scene in your case if you see us in the marvel universe i also think like because you're a movie star if you see us on the scene it means something has gone wrong so i hope i hope that i hope i never seen matt damon character in goodwill hunting. We hope we hope we never see you again. But this honestly though i mean hey man you know who is going to be in. La new york please sale annoyed love to grab a bite with you guys. Yeah for sure. Yeah we absolutely. We've got to stand up. Show suits share mega. Serena's amazing amazing. All right right listeners. we love you. We'll see you next week by by a simple mobile you get the no contract advantage those other mobile companies make you think you're in control but you're really not the lure you in with shiny new phones and lock you into long-term agreements but simple mobile's different. You can get a thirty day plan starting at twenty five dollars you can also get the latest smartphones or if you have a compatible phone you love you can bring it. Just text b. y. o. P. two six one one six one one to see if your phone is compatible. it's the reliability. You need when you need it. All on a powerful nationwide five g. network with no mystery fees no activation fees and no contract ever all for less money and no contract ever five g. capable devices required and coverage and speed may vary five g. network not available in all areas five g. 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Jonny Griffiths: RISPs, problem solving and mental health

Mr Barton Maths Podcast

3:05:49 hr | 2 years ago

Jonny Griffiths: RISPs, problem solving and mental health

"Glenn. Hello. Enor- episode of the missed the Baltin mouths podcast with me, crate box a show interview, people who interest, I'm inspired me from the wonderful world of education. This teller out I spoke to Johnny griffis, and he's one of my all time favorite conversations. But before we dive into that, I quit word from our brand new sponsors, Q, the fancy music. This episode Matz podcast is Kylie sponsored by the open university. Now I the confession to make that may not go down. Well, with many of my lessons, I don't actually have a maths degree yet. I'm a closet economist. I know I know anyway, on my book, it lace for a long time has been to do a mass degree and given that moving into halls of residence for three years and partying like it's the year two thousand probably wouldn't go down a storm with my wife and newborn psalm. The open university has always appealed to me, the open university, actually celebrates its fiftieth birthday in two thousand nineteen conceived as a university of the air, I love that phrase made famous bites icon television programs of the nineteen seventies, the university has always embraced each technological innovation from VHS the DVD to the internet. And now smartphones to bring high quality. Distance learning to students throughout the UK Europe. I'm the world with over one hundred and fifty thousand students mostly studying part time often while they work the university support students through his open learning methodology, which combines excellent teaching materials support from dedicated shooter online, teaching and interaction with fellow students since he's found Dacian mathematics has been a central part of the universe. He's provisions on the open university master of science degree mathematics, was one of the earliest name degrees offered by the university. Now, this is my favorite bit students study out that own pace some just over two years. All this take six or more, an average students take around three to four years. And it's also possible to have breaks between modules the open university, actually, as many students who must teaches, as well as financial service professionals scientists engineers, and computer scientists. It's kind of like my ideal dinner party students on the master of science program benefit from a wonderful community of fellow students, and tutors. They also have to cheaters who facilitate online support via the student forms, the modules on author cover topics such as are you ready for this calculus, variations advanced calculus. Number theory, non linear differential, equations, every correcting codes and the geometry of frontal. Wow. The master of sides program in mathematics is a many ways. The jewel in the crown of the open, university, mathematics, offering, you can Email. Maths hyphen M, S C at open dot AC dot UK. The further information or just type in zero four open university into your favorite search engine that's at zero for open university, and who knows. Maybe we'll be doing that lovely bit of months together the open university. One day. What you can university, you are interested in spreading the word about your product, service, or vents thousands of the very best podcast listeners in the whole wide world. Then just drop me an Email at missed the Boston maths Jima dot com to find out more about the sponsor packages available. Anyway back to today's episode with Jani griffis I think it's fair to say that Johnny is an absolute legend of the mass teaching world. I, I became aware of his work in my Anka thi year when I came across his risks activities. And for those who don't know they stunned for rich starting points for a level maths. I'm we're gonna dig deep about those later in the conversation, then the pleasure of hearing, Johnny speak at an early TSM conference in Andel, which was hosted by Douglas Bulla, and I have been a massive fan of Janis work ever since. And then I was looking to share a drink with Johnny at the twenty nineteen joint eighty. And a conference where quickly realized two things. Firstly rips is only scratching the surface of Janis mathematical story. And Secondly I just had to get him on the podcast. So in a wide ranging, challenging fascinating, and I reckon pretty important conversation, Johnny, and I discuss the following things I'm plenty more besides first off Johnny's life as a rock star. And how that type of performance is actually very different to what teacher needs to do their we'll talk about an old podcast favorite the smile resources and Janis experience with them. I asked Joni vowed some of the challenges teaching in a sixth form college compared to teaching in eleven to sixteen or eleven to eighteen school. Then we go deep into tasks design as ask, Johnny to choose three tasks all of which available in the show notes, and describe why he likes them and how he would use them. I'm believe. Of me. There are some absolute crackers. We then bench into uncharted territory for this podcast when we discussed textbook design and what makes a good exercise before Johnny wraps. Everything up with some excellent reflections on a wonderful big three now. Amidst, all the incredible insights, about task design and pedagogy in general. I think the thing that struck me most about this conversation was when Johnny describes with incredible on the scene, clarity. He's early struggles as a teacher and the importance of our state of mind, a mental health on a selfish level found this part of the conversation, incredibly useful to help me think about some of my own struggles, and I'm sure the listeners will do the same to I only think this is one of the most important conversations I've ever had on this podcast, now just before we crack on the usual plucks my book, how I wish I taught Massey still available from old good and all evil bookshops. If you wanna sponsor the pod. Cast drop me an Email, and you can also support the podcast via patriot and sign up to buy me mellow birds coffee, a month, details are in the show notes or via patriot dot com forward slash Mr.. Barton maths and finally, as you may. Well know I've hosted a brand new series of podcast is eight episodes, and the series called inside exams, where I go behind the scenes of an awarding body to hopefully, ask the questions you want answering, we tackle everything grade boundaries Mark schemes language multiple choice, questions, dead debt, proud of it. That's inside exams. Search for it wherever you get your podcast from all, there's a link in the show notes anyway. Without further ado, let me introduce you to the woman full, Johnny griffis is such a great storyteller. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to him. I really hope you enjoy this one. I have no doubt whatsoever that you will. And as ever, I will see you on the. Okay, johnny. So we start the puck us as we always do with your speed dating questions, so questionable. Well, what is your favorite number and wife? Okay. Well, my favorite numbers and she team in. I suppose I feel a bit sorry for the number thirteen seems to me gets us back breasts round the place. I live at number eleven on our street and next door to us is number if they. Wow. So what is that about that's discrimination at the worst possible kind? So it's also the number thirteen is the number on that has the favor of that number has a name, which is kind of the which is fair thirteen. So that's, that's pretty down. This again and. Suppose mathematical reasons, I like thirteen I, I like regulations, I like semi regulations. I like the atomic saw his am I like the comedian? So which, as you can build out of regular polygons as long as the combination running, the birth of the same, and they're off the teen of those. So that's nice. And they're seen as a. It's been Archie Brian. And nobody knows how many of those there are we know about four of them. And then. It'll say that there are another seventeen that's probable primes. That's a, that's a nice idea as caves. There are some numbers that regarded as being primes probably. What does that mean? Johnny sorry for my mind. Probably a proud. Well, the problem is so big that is very, very hard to check right? But you can you can presumably you can carry out certain tests on it as to whether it's like, vitalize the lobby of this is beyond. Why? No. But that would throw a lot of games. I think disable this is probably. And then I think also apparently what has been proved Nazi bronzes, they're only three. That's members of a twin pan prime to impair that stuff's two crimes, just two apart. So three and by of that, by the Nazi numbers, and then to the only other number that is the prime and is also on the number thirteen. So that's another reason to love that. Tina think jeez. I try and deal these podcast being -clusive with all my gas in your. You'll be inclusive with all the numbers, Johnny. So I love you bring in thirteen back into into. Yeah. That's brilliant to see. Must be questionable, Johnny favorite topic in months when you're a student. Well, I didn't have to memories. I'm ready phone from school. And one is when I was about fourteen and teacher, who was very brilliant, an called Steve Russ wonderful teacher, and he, he will ten and suddenly started Oscars to raise strange question about so look points and how many how many points how many lines how many regions, and I lose base is time I've ever met. Well, what we like colon investigation, and I was absolutely transfixed by a life thought, you know. So this is what my vase why haven't you told us this before this is this is just great? And that, that had a big affect homeo-. Thank really now mean second, he was also stable, so introduce need to what it calls periodic recurrence relations now we're not going to do about it. For example, example, if you take the number X, and then you say the next term is going to be one overex-. Then in the sense, you're not seeing the rule generating sequence of numbers your sign togetherness next month. But you do one over the number four, so one over one over X would be X, so that sink was just goes x one over X, X, whatever X. And that is an example of a periodic recurrence relation now. What Steve one day was walk in puts X Y. And then he said the next term is going to be why plus one over X. Now. So other words together next time you take the previous time you at one and then divide by the time before pet. Have you had great even this before haven't Fawzi what I've got a pen and paper mound that you've, you've hoped straight in on keep telling me about this one. Well, this, this, basically, what I really, really hate to do this. Bunk. What's the I have to put? Basically, you can do people could try this themselves the algebra's Radi lovely as a test of algebra via students. This Brennan, what happens is this turns out to be also periodic. In other words, you get back to x and then why and the period is actually five. And you know, it's very hard to believe, because as you did the first couple of times gets moral. And then suddenly, you got the spy, Troy's ation, and the slow, which makes it much simpler. And then the same thing again again. So I mean you're into counseling, which, which I? I think I probably love counseling anything really. If you give me back to the line council unhappy, I the day. But this is this is the ultimate example of just for the benefit. Listen to me. We give us the start of that sequence one more time. So people yet. Thank you. Go you go. The first time his acts Sikandar is why and then the third term is why plus one over heck's. All right. So the rule is to get the next term, you have once the previous time divide by the time before that this is this is not a negligible thing. This is not this is not some sort of that'll triviality is, if you people have written this is actually the hearts of a lot of. I've heard Zygi ah the amazing talk about this is this result in on hallowed tons. It really does go quite deeply to certain areas of my sister salt. I'll see really flip connec about that to play along with this brilliant. I'm hoping we haven't peaked too soon on the interview. This is so funny. If little break. Question three. What job would you like to do? If you weren't involved in message. Yes. Well, I find this or any tricky one. Because of course, my hand, basically, I'm not I'm not a big one two regrets. I think so the trunk cry of Skilton still very much. But. I, I actually I would choose teaching liberal, again, in a shown in it, also you sort of St. me, if I if I hadn't Justice aging, and I would be really completed from buses, so that was very difficult to say, I suppose, I think what you can say is I like to nine to five. I don't like jobs that require traveling or run at one stage. I was in the band, and I have to say, that's what killed news, traveling getting the most way by vows and then performing somewhere. And then driving this somewhere else, that's not me. I suppose I would like to involve with Matt's. I wanted to maybe actually would be a very interesting job. But I think your throat a profound question because. I suppose I may have. I mean, things are getting slightly religious on your head. Go for it. I mean, you know, we're talking about the -cation here, we were talking about cooling, and so, yeah, I, I suppose, I, I always felt that sense of occasion towards monthly evenly, teaching wasn't going very well. I always had the sense I was doing something stupendous worthwhile and. That was very important to me really worth wellness. Fantastic again. Siefert I'm son, Johnny. Well, you've kinda hinted on it there. I think I've all my guests. You've have I don't always fascinating. Listen to people's stories how how they get into teaching some always wanted to do it. Some fall into it. Some come to it by kind of weird and wonderful ways. But, but you've got a particularly interest in journey into that. I'm fascinated into digging deeper. And so only can you seek us through the steps in your career where it started. And how you became the manual today. Let's keep this profound nece going gopher. Okay. Well, I suppose I was fortunate enough to go to college as school. This is a very vulnerable public school on the on the edge of London. And it's, it's very eldest, is it was founded in sixteen nineteen which is exactly two years ago. And I loved it there, I was sent as part of the direct ground experience, which meant the, the local authority page me to go. The my parents didn't pay there were lots of staff. I think I think a lot gone hits thought that time. And, you know, I specially level I just loved it to bits. I have been tastic teaches. I was, of course, dimly aware the privilege that was involved. But something we really hate to that time opponent school. That was not me. I suppose I kind of that's I always aspired offer my students in whatever setting that kind of same thing of being totally at home in a month scholarship. That's really, I had experienced myself very young. And, you know, by school Berea was kinda glittering. I have to say. Turned up day. I feasted on music and sport. And amass my pain out of it with threes, every single person my class, what we all go three eight and sculpted Cambridge, and it all looks plain sailing from there. You know, I was gonna go onto the research shows gonna be at dawn sexual cetera. It was only later that things started to go though, wrong with that are there or maybe they went, right? Other. As pose. Yeah. I mean the thing I wasn't too good at was the Libyan that's got to be in the very far with that. The end today things have problem solving. Okay. So I spent a year off Lefter spent a year of teaching break whilst of in Sussex and back surreal, wonderful prep school of great whilst that it was, I was not the natural in the cloud. I didn't I didn't of some people just walk in the way they go that wasn't Antle, very difficult. And I suppose that launched in the back of my mind as a as something I would want to visit later. What, which bits of it did you, you find you find you at natural out was it behavior was explaining concepts of students because I imagine plenty of listeners, listen to this will find reassurance in this because I know I only teaching incredibly hard at the star. So wait which bits in particular? Did you did you find difficult? Well, I suppose behavior was an issue. I'm mean but it was just the whole business of blooming relationships with students. I mean, maybe I wasn't there long attitude terms. But the more I've gone on teaching. It seemed to me the more the hearts of it is about forming relationships of students lit on builds on trust. Yes. Built on Meacham respect. They know they know that they will both operating within a framework that you have established in your classroom is democratic in the sense that you will listen to people who have problems with the framework, and all of that stuff about really, you know, gently building relationships seems just wasn't very good. At is that it's not with, I mean, it sounds like lady always slot is a Lufti perhaps my kind of. Experience of public school had not really educated me. What it means to get on with, with people by lots say again. In terms of I think that's probably the in terms of getting on with the boss majority of the country, going to call. This was a disaster. So that was sort of. No, he's again fascinating, this will resonate with a lot of people. Yeah. This honesty that that everybody. These Grun views of what is going to be like, and you see all these adverts on telling stuff and you think this the dream job always wants to do this, and it's very often the reality is isn't quite light, not for many reasons. So this, this is fascinating. Okay. So I finished my year outs and I went up to Cambridge. And this is where I had a massive shock to the system. They cause. Basically, I discovered that by the standards of penguins. University of mothers. I I wasn't that. Good. I wasn't. I wasn't a disaster. I was kind of middle of the seconds every year, but that's, that's kind of where I was. And but, but more than that suddenly Matt's started to the come of it scary for me. I think you would struggle to find anybody that when I ride the came to love maths for line. Did I had gone down live cleared? The mass cells everything and read it all. And I just couldn't get enough of it. But then I read the camers gradually. Yeah, it was a suc towns. And I just was living on very, very meager rations. And it's, it's I think it's kind of Americal the I I stay at. But, you know, I throw it really this is Jubal. People's launch us. Drew for me. I was speaking with then McClure the other day, and she's the rather wonderful manager of Cambridge assessment center. And she said where did you do that? So I said and she said, did you enjoy? Am I said law, really? And then I said, only that was a long time ago, and I'm sure things that's a now. And she just looked inside. Nothern laud. So, you know, they were they were brilliant, lectures. Don't get me wrong. They were really lectures. Tom Curran, was just fantastic. John Conway was amazing but by large the lectures, didn't really seem to be in love with their lecturing the teaching seemed with annoyance they, they would clearly, the wants to get back to the research, buying lunch. But again I didn't help situations. This is Paul volts, they 'cause I didn't seek out this little personal contact with people that, that on had done it. That was no one to nourish me. I had to go into should have gone out and get someone to nourish me in. I to BIC Neil. Now, and I also spoke to some students she was a director studies for months Cambridge college. Now it was very obvious that biggie took a job as director strays incredibly seriously. All of those students on all of the students had talked to they felt had borne kind of in nourished and the firms. And if I've been looking Becky expansion, being very different. Yes. So you know, take care, good plunge Cambridge. Make sure you get your college. Whether director studies, it looks up for you. That's what I would say. But yeah, I met so many people who've been scarred by Cambridge my buttocks. I've often thought of forming a support group. The same thing about Oxford John or is it something because obviously be a similar system in terms of their supervisions and studies, and so on, or or is it something. Is it something unique to Cambridge? You think? Well. I, I really Renault talks to be honest. I should tell you this other thing, which was both my mother. And my father went to Gabriel and they they met games overseeing. Scene. The sense. Why choice of going to Cambridge was psychologically a little bit complicated? And I think I think, really, I would have been just much better off going to somewhere that my parents have monthly's zoo with. Yes. So that's another thing to, to actor in. So, yeah, I mean, what, what does what to say about it really? I suppose in once once I feel grateful for the experience in the sense that I can totally empathize with my students who are fearful of mathematics. Because I've been them. So that I suppose I got fed up with with with experience. I basic said, well know this game soldiers on a complete as my part one just two years, and then let's which to do education Ponto, which included off about two months, but I designed by them, I wanted to be a teacher and at secular level, and it seemed like a good the good things to it was great. I chance to think about education a lot. And I also got to write a lot of other -joyed any it was. So that was a really was good move. So I am urged ready to teach maths. But then, then ical somebody invited me to join the band other rather inconveniently. And I must've is really curious about that. So I said, yes. And we were on the road for six years for those who are full-time and what I find fascinating this era. Very modest man. But this is this quest significant bummed. Right. Because we, we've had we've had guests on the show. We've also and been involved in music Dylan. William, for example, was a bit of a, a bit of our rock star in his daytime Sherrington. He he was in a bummed, but long, quite liberal to kinda slate. Is that the your plan got? And you wanna just give analyst maybe uncomfortable. Johnny gives a couple of highlights. What, what was some of you? Favorite accolades, or some of the things you're most proud offer me abound, days. Okay. Well, I mean, a name was how in the World Bank, and we what we did have a Harvey Harvey Brown, who was something of a golden, but Ambrish she'd rent quasi, rental jersey. He ever needs to go, and we got together to support another Bank. Cambridge van called telephone Bill sleeve on writers and we went to Edinburgh festival ever. It went so. Well, it was just great. And then into is off that we ended up burst pool show at brew. We went full time. So I think the way I look back on the boat. And I would say the best two years with tastic fun. They say the, the second two years were extremely hard work, but very enjoyable and then the last two years, we're just absolute on gated hell. We, you know, I suppose you're talking about. Well, why was it such basically, we miss sort of lost our way? We did a show that the didn't really bring the punches in we made a big loss. We saw a looks tax Bill realized we haven't been saving products. We manage a statement. About a brand team. Yeah. Basically, he died three days before final call. So that was that was pretty horrible. And you know, we managed to do it. We call it our way out. We got we paid off that tax Bill and we merged. Anybody that was great, but we had a narrow escape easy. And I was, of course, thing, the message, I was in charge of the group accounts, obviously, and Greg base running the accounts of a banned band. Any? Think about it. Terrible receipts. Forever. Oper his maidens the five on it. What's the name? Anyway, anyway, we also the trouble with thing I always all the way through the van really wants to share. And so in the end, I just this is my child. The trouble is when you're in a band. You become very realistic about line everybody. Everyone is clapping time. Sort of, of. Attained hummus goad stages for some people. And that's not good. Anyone ready isn't good Fain was a very dangerous thing. And. So, you know, I was a little tiny myself as elected by raw food, is that look, I want to be a really, really great teacher. That, that means I'm gonna have to teach in a really ready difficult school. And so I signed up for comprehensive so Bill Howard in town. Hamlets. And this, this was in the days when the schools, but pretty hard work. And I'm so they are still. But. London schools have had an amazing. Turnarounds in, in many ways, because of a lots of money intentions spent on them. But this was the days when Tom schools were, but were in a tricky. And I turned up thinking, oh, the kids will the band, obviously easy, and of course, the kids haven't heard about it. They didn't care. It's all about a band, and they basically sort of run rings around me which I suppose. Just what you expect for a provisional year. So I got through the six of us probations at the school. And we'll we'll, we'll went through mazing ups dancing one as you do. And. I asked my probation, which is which is great. And everybody was telling me you get to be so much easier. What believe it? Kids, Lhamo you you'll be poverty, but it away you go. And I turned up here too, and, you know, well, no one had given my kids that script. And basically, it got really ready. God when I became stupendous league depressed humbly whether in any one had up sedans, this was just down down down really them. The worst I got the worst the kids got and. Basically, I, I just kept on going in. I don't know why I didn't see a doctor, I just became more more monosylabic avoided deposits from the stock room. Yes, I should've. Eventually, you know, I started to say count, I did start city council. That was the one sensible thing. I did. And then I suppose my buddy, just had enough, and it just the one one day, I just wanted to reverse, I became very money. I didn't sleep. I didn't. I didn't see it all three days. I went to I went to visit some friends in Jessica. They was out for a walk. And I was left in the house. I just thought smashing windows. And my friends back and they found me. Solo naked held up in a bowl surrounded by breaking gloss. And they just rank they ran longest allies flapping actually. So the reason telling this. Reason this is because you know there's a lot of focus on mental illness of the moments. And you know there's a lot of teachers on the untested stress. It's like at Tripoli, and I just want to say that, you know, you can recover any if I can recover anyone can recover. So I'm hoping I think people do need good news. Stories about mental illness, lie hope this cross the on the good news story. That's incredible. Jody we'll what what happened after that. Did you take a break for a while? How did you get yourself back when it was? It was it was terrible for my friends, obviously. And it was terrible. My family I took a break for a month. And then I went back to the time of the school. And I knew I walk through the door on the initial, I would need to resign straight away and just, just laughed. And then very fortunately, I got a job, pretty much straight away at Dominic six college. I decided that I decided that six colleges more likely to be the place for me, and I was right? And I went to stomach switches, which I was lucky because domes regularly comes top of the sixth form league tables, and so on. I mean, it's a wonderful place. And. After I did. I did feel still built not very happy, my teachers skin. I suppose I did flood with the idea of computing. I did I signed up for a course to learn postgraduate condition, but that didn't really work out because my health, my health would allow that on should I should say, in my Bilas was recurrent, and I was hospitalized a total of eight times. But the good news is, I've been hospitalized since the year two thousand so I regard myself as pretty much back on the straight Marano, jeez. And this may be a stupid question, Johnny. But would you now that your in a place where you feel relatively comfortable as you say you're on the straighten arrow? Who do you think if you if you to return to that school, now, would it be different experience was it just? The U at any stage in life will be better be better. Because, you know, have now spent twenty five years and six colleges. And, you know, I think. I just I just know how to build those relationships much better. Now. I mean, you know, you, you asked me to. And of course, the thing, it would be wrong to suggest but it was simply my job. The boats about my breakdown, best. That's not true that action, all sorts of things in my psyche. The were working through, you know. And, and I I was daily on happy on the inside and deeply unhappy outside. Yes. And that, that formed a kind of perfect storm. If you like so. Yeah, I think it'll be much better because. You asked me about my favorite books about my segregation, one of one of them is the, the crafted the plus room by Michael Marland? And he talks. He talks about an old fashioned book, written nine hundred seventy five does nothing about computers in it, but it's just untested old school wisdom on the very just the basic nature of what it needs to be a teacher. And he, he says. He says, in that this date of social the with it of the teacher, he finds his concept. And that's that's the key to everything has been with it. Your shop, you're aware, you'll and the other has is ruling by quit that actually knew kind of your, your humor is such an important part of being a with that teacher. And when I pitched up into I wasn't with it a toll I was kind of out in some big. Bugalho mini singing group, type atmosphere. And I it was just talking to different. I mean, I strangely fouls that because I was good for me on stage. High would make good before Meena classroom. Yes. That's, that's, that's a crazy kind of. Implications suggest because totally different time k different. Bolom ince's. On a stage you. Well, so the we didn't particularly engage the audience that we were providing something that we didn't. We didn't have hecklers by launch whereas goss- room. It's totally differently after the. Completely winning to take on the whole time. And it's a different act. And I had I had to relearn act totally, but I did I did I ended up with us. So that works. And I know there was some people say they don't do as an act. And what since quite strong on those, she feels that she just walks in and he's a cell. And I do agree with that really. But it's it's kind of an act that is completely treaty. So that's why I think teaching should be. Yeah. Absolutely fascinating. This Johnny is often something. I've thought about myself with would this kind of performing nature of teaching and I never drawn this thing before that is different types of reform. And but, but you're absolutely you're absolutely right. It completely is and I found my hottest days as a teacher. And obviously, this is nothing in comparison to what you described. There is is when something bad as happen. Kind of inner personal life for whatever reason you wake open. It's you know it's not a good day. There's something not quite right. And so on. It's, it's not like any of the job in the sense that you then have to go in the classroom, and you have to adopt some kind of persona econ economy, be kind of down in the dumps in front of the kids. Orem birding problems on the kids, as you might do another job as with kind of supported co works, and so, on to the semi is an element of performance about it, and I found the most difficult bits of teaching for me is, is when the lovely phrase when I haven't been with. With it myself when I when I've been able to walk into that classroom kind of fully, comfortable with who I am that day in that moment because it's hard enough job as it is teaching but when you not write yourself into it's, it's almost impossible if I make sense. Absolutely right. I mean, the kids big of a measly if you are in a more. You know, he wa then they will mirror that back to you the Bantu and you can't blame for that ready. So the teacher who is completely peace with their own psyche is likely to have the most peaceful Walsum. That's really true. Yeah. So, but in, in, in a way I'm now in a situation where not to ponts fits and pieces of, of was I didn't band. They also useful to me in a way now you know. So anyone you talking to teachers that there's a little bit more of that van before thing? Yeah. Did did the stuff from the bound ever manifest itself in the classroom in any useful way with the kids, did you find any aspects of if you're experienced that to be useful? Yeah. I would occasionally I mean, I enjoy writing songs. And I did we did in our school, we had smile, and that we just about smile, people haven't come across small, that is, it's individualized were cons every student in the boss would have their own lists, and they would work through the cards at their own pace once the list of cards, they would do test, and it that was successful to go into this cards. So. We were starting the system and I just had had a terrible day and colleagues, but looking in the most about and say will join the heavens sake. Just just get you get out. Something just go in and do some visit with them. And so I just went home, and I wrote, I read so ramp smile ramp. We started. Hey, today's something use a new kind of familiar. It's such a. So I just walked in my closet. I had a beat books with me. I didn't say anything on the table impress go. And. I'd more attention this -joyed. I did the ramp. And the kids were wonderful range of ethnicities of centra. They all loved it. You know, they, they both need to do this rap again at the end of the last. Immediately all my other classes, but me to ramp. And I ban goes the news spreading that I got invite to ramp. The smile conference. Wow. And so while I've arrived. So up. And I did my rap and it went down a storm, or at least I thought he went down a storm, but then game, the end Johnny say this. If you people walk out. Powerfully. I had in guilty of cultural appropriation. So. Now, now, it was funny because I, I sort of with have this problem the van but was we were, we were basically six white blows who loved music, and. It was the problem of. Actually. You know, we did one song by right here who of his Johnson shine. Now, the words that I think pretty dodgy, and I always said this about I never really wanted to sing it, but, but, but it was kind of a group decision. I put it this way. I'm aware the sensitivities here. Sure. And I of what I did smoke options was fine. But I could see why people might so incensed taken away, I could see that. So apology was may. Which the people who'd enjoy my ramp were incensed they, you know, you saying we were wrong to enjoy that and they were saying, but he did nothing wrong. I am. So I, I basically split split smile into which is pretty pretty much the story of my career advice. But yes. So, so, yeah, let's musicals have also. I'm so raises on saying companies just now the ratings on my saying last week, and that's proved to be thankfully, along those controversial companies free should say that the rating. So after I saw you at the ATM conference I got an Email. I got home from Colin foster. He's former podcast gassed in what, what my maths heroes saying us, Johnny about the rating song is my favorite song, so calling foster straits big fun. We give just an ally from the ratings of a flavor of what that one's about. Yeah. Well did about in Greg? But I've always found the best way to treat to teach trigonometry is, is by the medium of country and western of twice obvious. Of course. This goes. Well, the, the idea behind the song is the Joe is someone who got big families three three sons older and every Sunday lunch. They have apple pie right now. Every every Sunday, they all school six lots of sixty degrees, which, of course, is built on. So there's no pilot over. I'm Joe and you know, he's kind of a day with that. Why tiny man. Right. And so, but one day he's sums been lending at school. And his son comes along. It's sixty degrees. A radiant. And as we will we'll know radio is just a little bit fifty seven degrees. So that means it's going to be higher fever. But his son says, well, that's okay. It's always, oh Ryan at this point. So you might be beating. This is slenda threads to hang up tenuous is not a word that's going through my Eddie. Basically, the final berth goes, let soldiers radium is radion one risk it nothing against the good old degree. But the radiant takes the biscuit at such. Wow. And I think I'm alright send this. I think I've seen linked to this some I whether it's on YouTube or something, I'm going to try this down. Johnny, I think I can link to this in the show notes. It's yeah. Yeah. There is there is there is there is a some some some student fortunately Dila, bootleg recording. Yeah. Ask you a few things that I wanna pick upon and later in our conversation in particular smile, and also just up more on your experiences, teaching in a six college, but just before we dive into that, Johnny. And I always asked my guest is to choose a favorite failure. So a moment props in lesson, or teaching experience the didn't quite go code into planet and crucially. What, what you learn from the experience does that does anything spring to mind. Actually, it doesn't pretty much my lesson sort of qualifies. I think on this one it was I was at the ATM and a conference last week and I went along to the very wonderful Williams and also very wanted to, like I went along to the joint session which was on the five of five was a Mike. It said he'd be teaching in schools where he was told his didn't really appreciate what five was. So this was a lesson to a workshop to encourage a sliver flex on number five, and we did this lovely thing where we rounded threes, and we would just count nouns. Now with then round the group. So that's nice as one person basis to boatswain ceases three and then person one says, oh. Now the person one is now said one bowl. Yes. And so the question which was really end up saying, and is that is that to do with by a one five does that represent? And if you if you end people in the group in your counting ams in generalize this. Lovey sauce, and I happen to mention to Mike in the break, that's on being part of a music rate weather's at happen. We one plant in threes. So it's go. Right. And then the second enforce one three. Three and then the third group implies say start all together together. What is back to happen? And what, what I was hoping people would say, well, three four five, the lowest home on multiple those sixty is not, so we would expect to becoming all together on beat sixty. Yes. So we don't get on one and the next time we'll be together. We'll be on the somebody's. Somebody said, well, hang on that could we? Sports. And I was I was trying mothers that will mean the end up fifty nine so my teaching point is not aid. But in fact that person suggested note was absolutely right. When you think about it. If you go this they realized now is Lowe's interference between my music, and my maps causing music you always knew episode supposed to be the boss wants to three two to three counting threes. As a mathematician, you go. One two three two episodes. The atlas rate. That's what you do. Yes. So, you know, and I'm Jay lies that my, my method, we would plant the music together all the one but the next time together beyond sixty one which kind of blew it out the water, the person who suggested nor was absolutely correct. It would start together on north. We would all sixty I think we should have been clapping them the mass way. In other words. So. And it we've done it that way, then we would all together. So I realized all this stuff when I was standing there wasn't airland to people going, Johnny become see handle the Mike. Wasn't that was just my? But I mean, I, I think Craig, I'm I'm basically painting, a picture of a less the way wrong. Although teaches paying generous play on let me off. If your lessons I learned from that. Best of all dome buzz of morning chew. I think also, you know. Just. Yeah. I mean improvise ation is fine in if there's no was Asian from the trip you just leading reading, grit. The nice hopeless, but on the other hand, you know. Just don't try and juggle samples before you can apply. Alive. I Tony seafarers. I wanna turn to talk about smile. If it's review. It's something that's come up on the podcast, this apprising number of times Dylan William tilt Fouts. I'm Watson, Spokane about it. Tom Sherrington as even spoken about it. And it's one of those things that well at the ATM may conference through his workshop on smile all the resources are available from, from the stem center website, book, and I'm frustrated to speak to you because obviously, you've had experience, teaching smile. And I'm being ostracized by the smile hall Hoffa, small community. Also. And can you just again I know you mentioned this briefly, but just talk to if you teaching a lesson using smile, just what would that look like and what was some of the pros and cons of it? Okay. Well, basically. The not the lesson will be really simple because it's basically just used to coming straighten sitting down getting on with it. They get old is out in that boulder would be a list of tasks, and I'll take and you know. Basically everybody in the classroom would be likely to working on something different. If on the table, the five people people, although people would let me like to have different cons. The teacher. Well, basically the there was very little teaching from the front, you know, you basically wonder around facilitator troubleshooting and really, it was a totally difference. As power dime for what teachers should be doing the old, the old paradigm, said, what he's not up the front and you say it. Implicitly. You say to students look at me look at me, look at me, whereas the new power lines law was wondering, saying, don't look at me. Look at your calm, just in the whole thing about smile was getting kids to be as independent as possible. And. From that point have to applaud it. Think if you were. A kid who wanted to get on. Whatever level you could you could forge ahead now. I mean, I think I think small was perhaps be gone with two problems in mind. First problem was was stupid behavior. It was it was just so difficult in inner city schools to stand up for class and have a hope us lesson. That was just a really hard thing to do. And the trouble that is gonna pass twenty-five only takes one or two kids to destroy that lesson forever. Yet. So that was problem because there were lots of young teachers in their time. And yeah. They needed help. I mean, other thing was those lots of reinventing, the wheel, you know, those teaches writing virtually. No, I school on the same task and there was no experience being shed. So they decided to get together and trying to both problems and the service small classroom. It will it was no longer possible for one or two kids destroy us, and they could they could make it difficult on that table, prevents. But it would mean that five six tables are working fine. And then, of course, this marvelous so sharing of wisdom and resources, they might every card, you sent I've been revised probably by five or six teachers, and then there is those, those cards work to rip ick. They were absolutely great though, the right level. And so on the, the other thing small dealt with Britain leg was mixed vanity because all small also pretty mixed earthy an small perfectly there, because everyone's working different tasks that it's almost by back initiates mixed of other. And. So, you know, that was that was great downsides smile. Which were the fact that every lesson was pretty much identical. But, but ninety kids, some kids proposed that. Hopefully, I think they will have to try that was a system called Oma goes, well, which would on a topic you would have a whole blast lesson to start with. You would have then you do two weeks, small cards, and then you would have. Boss, listen to end with so there were attempts customize small, so you didn't have some hope lessons. But believe flows, very good was teaching what load because those preparation time down to zero now you had to do those Admiral Tom, you have to reform the cons to mount the tests. But, you know, in terms of delivering systems manageable, but I kind of classroom small, was I thought it was brilliant and. How did it work practically? This may be another question. But in how students know which cards to be working on at any one time, and also was there any monitoring, whether the kids were getting things right? Or wrong. Right. Well, I think postal getting right so wrong. Again, this is the independent thing that actually his with their own work. And of course if they wanted to Jeet in bitchy virgin commerce chain. Sure they do. And the, the message was will vocal you, you know, this is all month. And if you want to cheat where threw it away. Go. And also, there was this business about making hours. There was one line in the small record said, don't let an IRA just sit by you've made a mistake understand why. That was that was the thing. Mistakes and. At the end of the end of your list of ten cards would then do a test, which is based upon those ten cards and they were no onces of over the tests, you have to have your test into the teacher to be Mark. So these, these tests will be made as part of this smile package as well. All right. So the not having to write bespoke tests or anything like that. If the if the student has to consummate ten twenty thirty forty fifty that will be test question in the book. You look you look at the test question the content. Look, look. Is John and then the teacher would not those if you had a really if you were going up at night until tomorrow tests, you could just set an extra car the next day, no problem. And I would say he imagined about the whole event to be the whole mass organized like this. You can see it's very attracted small became kind of religion. Really, let's see. And you could see why because it was a it was a way of teaching that's was almost complete antithetical to. Traditional teaching. Come ask you this may be a semi questions. All Johnny book. Let's say for example, that we need to teach the kids assess procedure, whether it's something like I, I don't know using the quote, Arctic formula role or Sharon interracial, or, or even something like the a metric ratio, so thin that props isn't immediately intuitive, improper lends itself, quite well to, to teach you guidance and whatever phrase, we want to use, and for that, how that kind of money in small, would you just do it kind of small group or individual 1210, obviously kids can be working on different things at different stages. So how did you teach some of the kind of big things that the big procedures via smile thought makes any sense at all? I think maybe didn't each citizen different ways. But really, once once you vote on smog econ do turn back very easily. I mean you'll basically setting a super tanker emotion, and you with it, you know, and, and the idea that you would I can't imagine ever sort of gathering together five kids from all the way around the classrooms. He just wouldn't happen. What you did rely on a lot was student corporation into of cooperating with the Java. And this small is great. So the problems on the head you'd have one week kid saying, Johnathan Stanley's, then you see that'd be sitting next to a raw the strongest or strongly, inverted commas student, who would be saying, Johnny run out of run card. I don't have any concept on my list. So you got two problems that you put the problems together, you say to the, the, the his other along the system, you save them. Look, can you help? Help your brothers sitting over here. That's kind of not to problems on the head rather than trying to explain AMT trying to find press work. Do you try and get in south beach, other so to speak? And so, you know, it was as I say it was it required a substantial shift in new point. But I have to say in that situation. I doubt the smile delivered. That's a than any other system gray. That's incredible. It was am what's now called EMT eleven is that right? It went went all the way through secondary school. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Why did you get sense of why lost? It's kind of popularity were what happened. Well, yeah, I think I should tell you about one of the teachers in the school. And she was actually headed to fall. He was annot Loveday was the name. She had been the school herself. She'd gone away done months, university energy, come back. So the head of the school, and she knew the culture inside out. And she was very young. She was twenty hours of. And she had the Katie, Walter Bostrom and good. Hear a pin drop. It was absolutely outstanding. And I spent this is my probation. Yeah. I spent hours also in how does or a half this magic. Yes. Yes. There was one occasion where my kids, I give them a chance to do. And they say boring. An came unstuck ahead around the dole to g wants to ask me about something. And she just walked in, I'm stood that she didn't say word. And suddenly, these kids, they starts saying anything about the war, and they just settled on this task quiet quiet the Senate on the room, and, and they started to discuss the mathematics, and this, this toss that supposedly being boring. Was now -absolutely riveting. I'm ben. No, I did business with me. She will. Gradually this stuff like my pen in such. Idle battle south coming back again. Square one. I mean, where does that much it come from? And in the end decided that it was kind of a number of things really. It's a makes Joe kind of hypnosis. Together with some sort of hardness right back of your psyche some Solis, some just it'd be too strong to call it a threat. And I think threats is frappes on word to use, but there's a sort of something in your not the students know if there's a competition between even that over something. Than it does, is there's a sort of social competition, then then the teacher is going to win. Yes. And I think I think students knew that with, with Laura. They, they could see this whatever they started to have a conversation with all these kind of future conversations, heading off, like a big breed. This. L at the end of every the leaf at the end of the, the trees are Nora wins. Basically, basically, my tree. But more than fifty cent had leaves saying people wins, so. Somehow you nora's going on his, he said that the first year was was was a bit of a write-off just take time for her to become an extraordinary to that. She was. Fascinated. And so you were saying just before we move away from smile. What, what why isn't smile around today? Johnny. Why isn't it being used in every school? I it sounds even for me. Again, I'll be honest, particularly these last couple of years, I've moved more towards for want of a better phrase. I kind of more direct instruction explicit tea- teaching way of teaching my students. But this, there's a lot of these things about smile sounds incredibly appealing. Particularly the behavioral aspects, particularly the kids could just crack on with things. So, so what why why are we use in them today as much? Well, I think the behavior thing is really important. I think the one thing that all educational researchers can agree on is the if you got really bad behavior. Classroom learning is not going to happen that is that you can take the granted now. I think if you are in a situation where you have student super whatever reason it may not be there on both because you may be teaching. Terrible lessons is possible to behave. Sure. But it for whatever reason they are being vani behaved. I think small represented a truce that forward. It's a sort of a much more egalitarian approach, and as allows allows students who want to get onto just get on. They can make it enor- the background noise, they plan with that stuff and they could make gross. I think I think the thing I really, really see directed -struction as kind of a dirty terminate anyway, honestly, I think anyone who thinks get through level mass without a bit of direct instruction your is absolutely crazy. Spill I did think so yeah, expedition, I do think there is exposition has been motivated. And then there was ex- position that just comes out of the blue. So, so with my clauses, and I would always trying to. If you like allows some kind of discussion some kind of engagement with sometimes right at the start the lesson to be to me. This is like what if you take a bombing analogy? Varma. He goes just doesn't plough it. And just sows the seed without doing that is, is unlike he's got a great crop. I think you need to plow up the seabed burst before you start to say, and I would see a rich task school. Some open task of software. That's, that's what it does it plows, the ground up. And then then when you when you go to the exposition, which is which is kind of inevitable, you have exposition. Then the divisive legislation is actually expeditions building on some desire, that he hopefully created in your students already. So they ready for it. Ideally, this is a high Bob, but I you'll get in students to design the theory that you're just about to present to them. That's what you want. So that requires incredibly helpful to task, and it also very skillful teaching when you're running around the group, of course. And again, give me the keep keep kind of buying this just fussing with, with the smile in the kind of I'm still trying to get to the bottom of. Why white isn't use widely in schools today? Did you get a sense props over the last few years that you would go into the smile conference numbers dwindling with kind of rival factions Stein sable? It's not good for this or that what, why why, why not why isn't it visible in schools today? Well, it goes area was wound up wasn't it? Elliott was the same of supporting smile of the provided Los resources things like the conference on. And I Don I history exactly. But the internet and I think I'm glad that this loan resources of being retained and they are now available to people and who knows these things cycles. Maybe some kind of. Revisiting of small and some shape form. Do you think Johnny come just as we'll, we're gonna talk about tasks designed very shortly given how, how highly how how you regard this the smile cards themselves? And as you say they've been through at least five iterations, and revisions. I'll be the kind of thing that a teacher listening to this interview could kind of dip in grab one of these cards and use it to stimulate discussion or a task, or is it as you described before I kind of super tanker the e kind of it's all on often. You've got to go with with everything with smile to, to get the value out of it, or can, we dip in and dip how you can in? Thanks some small teachers did that they would have a break from this law routine and just they want God and everybody will have a whole, we'll have a hopeless lesson on this something just that was very important. But you can't get away from the, the main structure by calls was individuals learning. And ready? Was sort of enrichment on top to do a whole lesson really? Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I'll tell you what. I could literally talk smile dive, and that was absolutely fascinating insight into and listeners should know where to get these the cards. But if not upper put a Lincoln, the shoulders to the to the stem center and just before we move onto to touch design, generally, and I just wanted just kind of go back to something we've talked about before, which is working in a six form college because I think you'll the I guess we've had on this show and who've vastly experienced teaching in a six college. But also, as you said, at the start you've also seen the kind of other side, you've taught in eleven to sixteen schools. So what are what are some of the differences, Johnny in any particular law? Some of the challenges of teaching and in a six college as opposed to a non six college. Okay. Well, I suppose if you magic a student getting to the age of sixteen and they have a choice, they might have a choice. They might have to stay on in that let them to eighteen school. Or they might have a local six phone calls. They might go to think that's very interesting choice that go viable. Yes. If you go to if you stay on your own school. There are pros and cons. They homes are. I think that you, you continue to be told you want light to continue taught by the teachers who taught you when you're young. So you may have to teaching when you were eleven they're going to carry you right through to team, and that means that you, you have a chance to as reinvent yourself in the same way that you do if you go to college, so you have up to six dollars a whole lot of new people from all all all around the county or whatever you go to hold the new teachers, you're not wearing it form your talking first names get treated much more as a young adult situation. I think. The downside to that is there are I think more distractions in six. It's there's the basic, there's more sex drugs and often role. College in in school on, I guess, last trial teachers joining. Rumbled me. I think it is probably true that there is a on against thing here. But this is from talking to teachers who taught in both institutions, I would suggest that there was a more scholarly. Am I right? Prostes. That's not true. Probably something like psychology. If you're in a psychology situation, loans, you might want to be in a six goes, better more. I didn't know but Matt, I think. Sounds of clarity Thole. It's coming distractions. He'd might be better off. I think I think the league tables show that schools levitating schools do get better results than six coaches. But that's only that's wild generalization show. Certainly of those school, six coaches out there, that, that do. Absolutely fantastic. Let's goals. So I'm I'm very nervous about this bit. I'm sure people going to get in touch inside that nonsense. No is, is, is, is really interesting. Well, I'll tell you if you're gonna get in trouble getting triple to Johnny with us. And I let me let me chime in on this as well. One thing that I noticed in, in my school my school in Bolton is that when I fish joined the school that we were, we were losing quite a few kids and absence team because they wanted a break, they wanted something different. They wanted more independence they would go to to six from college, and because I thought it was it was going to did that five years of kind of strict formal rules and up to Jesus. They wanted something different. So one way to combat. Was our school, tried to make it a bit more kind of relaxed the common room that be a place where we could hang out the reliable to lead the school. At lunchtime. There are the takeaways and all this kind of stuff. But then what, what happened over the last couple years, is that wasn't working in terms of A-level results. So a move then has been made to make actually the transition between year eleven to year, twelve actually not, not, not dramatic. All this, this kind of supervise private study to make it a bit more scholarly. So, and yet, it's very interesting. Both pupils perceptions how actually translates itself into until I condemned performance, if that makes any sense, that's all does. And I think that's very interesting. This Coleman room is range thing because of a central there were occasions, where the college say, yes, you can have a common. To say the common room was so badly treated by. I couldn't believe how they treated it was eventually, eventually it was taken away. Of course. One problem with is the finances. This is tricky. I mean. Basic six little colleges have been -absolutely hamlet in the most years on the funding. They not be included in the rain pants money that goes to schools. And I think I think probably had the lending causing real terms by more than twenty percent. And, and in terms of bang, vio buck, you know, six are huge success story. I mean they've really do deliver for the country. So you have to why is it that one has been so remorselessly way. And I think it's probably because the cabinets haven't they into six villages they they've either been to. They want to be. On the being the beans, public schools. All they've been grammar schools. And you know. I often wonder whether or not the education policies countries rating Ronald Stauba in. Ooh. For people wanting to make sure that the way they learned is preserved. So I, I also we had a terrible master, which was the sharing which was a high school opened a full. So they wear eleven sixty and then the became tweet teen but the problem was sharing that they couldn't get enough of students to stay on. So they had quite a small sixth form which meant they had to Bank on channel money from load on the school into this export now that meant that, that the youngest of the school, pretty raw deal. Meanwhile that's floor was affected is NC should've been coming to us behind you could argue and that made offenses incredibly times, now we attract to this crazy situation sharing one, we're not able to offer a wide curric- you. Elim in the ways of sexual because they had so few students, so it would soul sharing financial problems Valere fullness, came to us and it a often on its problems, it will almost came to us, you know, so, I think I should say, I'm a huge fan of six low cultures. I can make great. And I, I. If you if you lucky enough to have as college in your area, just go. There is gonna be good. It's really interesting that final question on six colleges, Johnny. And I certainly think, and it's something you mentioned before that often when I teach at twelve students, I know often taught them ear eleven or I've saw certainly taught me at some point during the last five years, so I always try inside where we're doing level now and it's obviously, it's more demanding and so on and so forth. But the is that kind of continuation through they know me, I know them, which has big advantages that where the history also this is in the sense that if I want to kind of ramp, the challenge, it's, it's, it's not as not as big it's harder to convince them if that makes sense because they're, they've got a certain preconceptions of, what maths is light with me on and so forth. Whereas in college, it's a fresh thought for them, and obviously, you don't know them. It's, it's the first time that you've met, these genes, and so on and so forth. So. This is my convoluted way of asking this hopefully will segue nicely into testes on that. We're going to speak about what did you first lessons, Johnny? When you've got Gotti, a year twelve group, you've got him in six on college. First time they're experiencing you first on their experience in Alabama. How does it start? What, what, what does that, that I fifteen minutes? What does that first lesson look like? Well, yes, I'm not supposed to do. I did usually dry in has some kind of ice breakers. So everybody a number between one those whatever and then you say, well, get into that. I've looked prime number. Get get it. Get grew up two square cetera. And so just get people talking together. Just welcome welcomes the level party. And then I wasn't a great one for kind of emphasizing rules necessarily the start just just on just get on with it. Get you get your first coun- get round, I would not do very much from the from the from the front to solve with because I want to get to know I want to get like as a account and. Even just having a little tiny little chant. Can help things along so trying to get something where you can do that. I think the rules, I would talk about was I, I had signs in my classroom, and I would introduce the signs. So that'd be like, you know, traffic signs actively. I think this is quite a good way of in forcing some structure. You know, for example, I would have a sign that that looked as if it said. No hamburgers. Basically meant now eating broadly. But then I could say what it also doubles is no yoyos, you know, 'cause look rather, like a yo-yo the. It makes the whole business. I mean, you may think who's gonna easing your plus anyway, believe me, and six phone calls and six coaches people eating stuff is potentially a problem. I, I always said. And if you bring some water and have a stateless, fine. I don't mind coffee. I do remind I do mind, whole meals, you know, sitting down with that kid. So, so, yeah, I think those that that turns the whole business of rules into the game and that this fun. I used to have one one sign that was basically, if it was a recreation, it was a referee blowing up of Buller and the football. That was on doing with the referees, say and it was rather hard signs work out. But the message was no arguing with the ref which is going to mate, and I always got my students drawn. Guess what sign meant, and they usually get something on the lines of knows singing of YMCA. Which which is quite a good rule. Anyway. So, yeah. This is interesting. The again year and this'll this'll lead into to speak about now the straighten to one of the tasks you straight into an activity west Eunson, discussing working together, and it's interesting, you say about the you, you want to quickly establish it will get to know them. Get get listen to them, speak, and so on, and that's probably best achieve by UB able to wander around and interact with groups as opposed to you explicitly instructing something from from the front of the lesson. That's fascinating. Okay. Johnny. I wanna talk now about tasks design and tusk choice. And the reason I want to discuss this with you is because when I look back over probably the first thirteen years of my teaching career I was a little bit too relaxed and didn't put enough thought into both the task that I chose it have been written by Liz, whether it's on TASR or whether it's Rachel wherever it is. I'm just grab things front-end without putting too much thought into it. And then as I kind of progress in my career. Wanna try and write a task onto to myself again? Now a look back, cringe, it will be in terms of what they look like and the thought put into those, so it's something I'm really trying to get better out. Both the my choice at task and my writing Tussaud, I thought who better to ask than the author of some of my favorite activities, evill tie, miss, Mr. Johnny griffis. So. Stop with just Intel wonder, how was your approach to tasks design changed over these, Johnny. If it's changed the tall. Well, it's hasn't changed its basic nature, which is always to write things that I would want to do myself. I think where, where do I get an idea for toss Brome? It tends to be on my not yet teaching the ball, say something like an exclusive us wise, quit plus x plus b y plus E equals note is guaranteed to be equation of a circle. And I said that once and I suddenly thought, hang on a minute. It doesn't if the bodies of ABC certain is not circle's gonna discipline and you don't explore the time necessarily, but you go away. And if you have that hang on a minute moment, as generally a nice task to come out of that. Now, your have Abba, changed my toss design say, probably gone to was trying to think about making the tasks easier. In a way, I don't think I've ever had any complaints atolls has being too easy, but I've, I've had I've had complaints difficult. And, and I think my experiences where the most I would like to go back if you like revisit my risks and rewrite them from the points of view of someone who's coming in with, with some sort of protected greater than or something and is hoping to get up to a c. Kind of student because I'm not sure that I really get that kind of students. The right kind of deal in, like, also. You know, I think if I look at my strengths teacher, I was, I think I was quite good with the, the ones the destined to come out with is nice ause, but I do feel a sense of regrets about the seed soup him came in with ease and could've sees. Because it is in a way I would see just a bit. I've just as big as an achievement to someone who's Jew together. I go nice on. You say that Johnny hits thin massive there that I've been wrestling with over the last couple years. And that is that these kind of activity is that we're going to go on to discuss. The not just the shouldn't be just the high flying students. Right. It shouldn't be the case that you kind of yellow rich even students get taught in in way. And then if they achieve a few kind of arbitrary benchmarks, then they are allowed to engage in these kind of activists because I think that's the mistake I've certainly made in the past, let's teach the kids, the basics and then if that goes, well, then let's give them something more engaging and exciting. And so on to do but what I be writing Saint Johnny that these, these tasks are really should be fit for all students to embrace. Is that right? Poet, totally another was idea of, of low threshold, high saving is, is rice. I had a rule if you hand the rich tossed. I think that really the first third of it should be major leagues to everybody in the room. That's not the case you go to problem. Yeah. One of the wonderful things about working with these, these tasks potentially is that you set the same toss for everybody. And yet there is no, so the console people can carry on working with it all the way through, you don't have to sort of. Throw three different tasks around your room and slew of divide the possum up into ghettos. One, one, one, one gets as one task one does. Now that you can you can hold everybody together on the one task, and I'm not so big Lhasa thing. So, yeah, I mean, I think you're reading in your book Craig about it was saying that motivation leads to success is that true will maybe but certain truths that success leads to -solutely ups, and so you want to give students certainly the stock the toss he want to give them a success. And that's why a lot of my tasks begin with choose three homers between one and ten because anybody can do that anybody. And then your way. So, but I think I would like to write some risks, if you like that were directed at bring sample those people bridging from Jesus dwell on that is a big hurdle. You know. And I think to write some tasks that were. Challenging, but not not its dating. That kind of student, I would think I would really like to do. I'll tell you what's fascinating, Johnny. Wh when you when you say that you'd like to revisit some, if some of your earlier, risks and change them, so that they are more accessible to students, and lower achieving students for want of a better phrase, and how'd you go about doing that without destroying the actual task itself? Is it a case of making it more structured, and given these this these opportunities for success? How would you go about changing one of those types without full momentum destroy what made it such wonderful tusk in the first place. Yeah. Well, I suppose if you just written for example, some furtherest. So I felt but as I two of them, I level, just just very simple thing, but I have vowed divided these tasks into part, one, two, three, four on and any tiny little tweak. But the idea is that it leads to this achievement sense. Hey, I got through part one this, it makes it makes the toss less intimidating. Because as the understanding, you may not get through all the parts and. So, so I, I would to me that has been a success. It also it also. Hangs into computer games a little bit. You know, level one level three. So that, that totally release something that game is used to. It may be that go back to my oldest since not include that. I wouldn't I don't think damage the task in any way that I would, I would just slightly break it up, maybe out of you extra sentences. Try just to lubricate the task a little bit so long a little better lever. Kate. It's lovely if you got some listening onto wear of your risks, Johnny, you only just explain what they are what where the idea came from. Okay. Well, there's, there's no sense of originality here. I think open tacit been around since Plato ready. And it's just this idea of committing yourself. The values of discussion of us can questions of exploring maybe maybe discovering, I know these county quite controversial ideas off from certain that these efficient ways of learning. But. For me. It's, it's not about I think about going to compensate, for example. Sometimes I'll get a session, that is a lecture and I always feel disappointed. I was fail excluded. Sometimes I'll bet you elect show where I'm Austin a math. A math straight away and I'm in I'm always draw in. I'm Ben, I want to know I want to know the person running the session what it was discovered when they did this by now it seems to me almost as night pose day that the second approach is better. It's going, it's going to draw blend, you know, I'm I think it's very hard to teach maths in a way that you yourself, would hate to learn it. I think to some extent you have to believe it. If you love learning math certain way to believe that, that is going to the way that it's going to work as a teacher to a sunny stunt. So, yeah. There are problems with these open tasks, which is that some students don't want to let my way at least initially, you know, there are some students while we call a little cautious a little bit timid. They want to be told the answer straight off, they want to be given. What examples straight off? They want to do what they have to do is to change the numbers in the question to do exactly what they just been shown. And I think you know, those students baker's big voters anyone else in the cause. And if you want to include them in their lessons, you're going to have the somehow talk some about it, try and show them. Why is the medical curiosity is a good thing. Trying encourage that in them. Maybe get friends to who do get it. Maybe those, those friends to help them along the way. Yeah. I mean, I suppose I just haven't had anything I would smile said the small lessons were all the same my lessons turned into more or less the same, it would be the case of students coming in and that the task on the board and they discuss it in groups in Italy. And then that we would have exposition or some sort of playing array where discussion discussion was great. But it had to be the whole class discussion. You couldn't discuss it in and then find that some of in consolidation with with some kind of exploratory exercises. The maybe. So, so my lesson to be very crude could take traditional thing. Point five minutes, exposition forty five minutes exercises that would be perhaps school lesson. My lessons will maybe thirty minutes. Rich tonics thirty minutes. Exposition. I'm thirty minutes some kind of consolidation in a rich way. He's what I find fascinating about this joining creek this'll be embarrassing of garnish wrong. But I'm alright insane risks. Stunts the rich starting points friend of a month. See this this, this is sometimes been wrestling with for ages. So your using these and as a way of for want of about a phrase kind of hooking students in to, to get in the discussing the concept that you're going to then go ahead and kind of more, formerly or explicitly teach them. Would that be too? Crude away of saying it. Well, I think you're, you're describing the ideal situation here. That's what I make ball but it's difficult. It's difficult for number reasons. Because first of all time, time, basically very up. You get courses that should be taught in sixty hours. I think tools in forty five just to save money. Now, the idea hopefully is a rich too. Well, they will speed the process up because it will have on signing in place before you start to Dick's position which will probably things will snowball in the right direction. But, you know, that's not makes picking the task absolutely crucial. Yes, you go to go to make sure it leans what he wants because every second the new classroom is precious. So I don't claim to have made this work on percents in a I. It may be I'm possibly a little bit Royce rosenstone than that. She using myself. But I do I did wanna see failed. I. If I'm trying to get my students of field. What I believe is mathematics. I don't believe that. Twenty random questions on fractions. Is it for me? It's not what mathematics is, I agree. If if that was not Matic's I wouldn't be interested. The mini. I love to just get home. Get paid in stock explo-. That's fun. Once I won't that exploration to the heart of what we do. So, yeah, it's is fascinating this. And this I I, I was trying to decide whether well let's take me new here. I don't know if we agree or disagree on this point, Johnny be fascinated to get your take on this. So I certainly agree with you on that one that there's no point. Well, I, I think there's a certain value of giving kids, some kind of routine for about a phrase practice to develop, whether we want to call it fluency or whatever in, in, in a particular procedure. And what would you say or have you experienced this, where it's because frustrating, students to embark upon some of these activities because they don't have that on the line knowledge to access the kind of the beauty, the rich, and the solve them whereas some students, and we've all seen this will thrive in these they'll, they'll look the uncertainty did they've got the curosity, but then they've also got the tools and to be able to really dig deep into in and go. So far, and conjecture and so on and so forth, west furthest. You say it can be quite a frustration experience. Where is to just again? Really, really bluntly, please, Ted, this argument apart to kind of, flip it on its on its head and say, okay, well, let's teach the routine. First, let's teach the procedures. And then, let's you've then got the knowledge to be able to use those basic skills, in a way that will open up the doors to some of the woman's of mathematics that contained within some of these activities. I mean, what, what, what's where am? I going wrong Johnny if I am. The sports on. I as I said, I'm not against this decision. I'm not against saying this is how it is. But what I'm saying is that the my ex needs to start with elements of play. Now I'm not in favor of all, play the idea investigation investigation of this tool. You do that, to me is in a sense, leaving nowhere. What you go to systematize the knowledge, but the your systematising something that's already been initiated. So you, you come out of your task and then you go to discuss Bill. Build upon that. And so that so my paradigm. If you like is play systematize consolidate, that's what I would say. That's how that's how she go. But it needs to be rich exposition as well as. I know John Mason says that there's nice things Red Sox really. Because there's only rich teaching and I take his point I do take his point. But hopefully my risks there is a certain pentacle is kind of built into the risk in the way that you attack it and it, so I'm not I can't get away from this now. I I'm not sure I could teach any other way. I want my students to have the same excitement. But I feel when I discover something and the great thing is I wanted to be a month researcher, when I was seventeen but I've learned I've not made it as Dahmer of Belo and everything. But I haven't made it as someone who can do very simple research into very simple problems. The amazing thing about my whatever level you're at there's research you can do. We're all researchers. Fascinates? Well, I I asked you in preparation for this into Johnny to pick out some of your favorite tasks that thought we could discuss. So join and what I'll do. I'll pulsa up the descriptions of these that you sent through police in the show notes. So, so listeners can access them. And I think the first one the sent through was was mucks box to just talk us through this one, Johnny thousand. Okay. So this is this is a very famous task. Suppose you're given a sheet of metal that is one meets by one liter, and you're allowed to cops also each Cohen you square and so full squares. But they're all the same size. Let's suppose that square, her aches, and then you score along scoreline the lines. And I think to see you can fold up the full, flaps, fun to make a box and the box will have a slab. Awesome. And it will have signs of type basis, and it will have no top, and your problem is, how can you choose axe can choose the size of the squares you count so that the volume of the box is a maximum. Now, you may think slow with all of Oakes's will be the same volume but actually. The so many nice arguments here, you can say, well, they might you imagine you choose to be zero was, what's the bond movie box now? What zero. And then suppose he choose X to behalf of meter well, basically your your, your box again has volumes. Isn't that and play some of the books is, there's a positive view. So surely, there's gonna be a maximum body, if you try and draw the grope any other way you're gonna get stuck. And so, you know, there's a maximum you Chuck it down when he could just make boxes but the power of mathematics Ican actually. Newslink differentiation upon when the grade integral zero and it as introduction to the power of the calculus is unparalleled is example. I always used to it used to when I when I can't explain this in the classroom. If belts me light writing ounces of Hobe text or something. It was a real visceral feeling of what amazing thing this is, and, you know, everything works nicely. It everything back to rises got all eatings differentiating, just differentiating passive ex. And the answer sweet as well. So just I mean, it's, it's an absolutely lovely activity, and I'm fascinated how he uses Johnny. So this would would would this be the first lesson that students will get on, on differentiation would this be essentially the task that's on the board when they come in with no mention a different Asian whatsoever. And can you talk to ups the case? Can you just talk to you, again, the roof, granite timings, and the kind of how you would orchestrate the discussion? Well, what does this actually look like when you used as tusk with students? Well, first of all, on debris over the start differentiation with this round could do I wouldn't, and I would start differentiation with you'd have old grow on the bold. You'd have. Weikles squared with a times, and you draw the table. So that boy, you, would you would see what happens with that squared on United's. What the gradient punch, my being trying skews the heart of this time then you could try X on next zero. Can you see a pattern in the, the gradient bumptious? Yes, you can looks as though we different. We projects the end we'll get and extent on is one. So that's spotting is that she does intrudes how Newton actually discover this he basically. And then, so then I would just, I would have my rules at brench mind, giving out rules of differentiation, this early stage and just saying, you know, if you integrate FOX plus Jabex differentiate bucks. Plus the new was the same thing as doing them separately. And i'm. That kind of on it doesn't work. The multiplication though, only in show doesn't multiplication. So I, I would take a quite. Algorithm. Make a broach this age, because I'm trying to especially with stints, who perhaps I mean for the lower grades, I just want them to know that their Jason not something scary. Yes. And it's something that has obeys quite simple rules. And it goes back to that point success. Exactly. So hey, I can do this. I really can do this. And then I think the max books, then comes in as a brilliant, demonstration of the power this, because, you know what in lines, always wanted to maximize things we wanted to minimize things, and you can immediately. See that different nations gonna help you great neighbor that. Fascinate does. Yeah. I love. And then again, I would you be the fire Nepal against a plot? The function is is that technology plays a big role in, in activities like this is not right. Yes. Yes. I think so. Yes. You know, that is something that really has revolutionized of Mannix, as the viability of technology. So, yeah, I would definitely bring that in, but the great thing about the neck spokes is actually happy holiday. Now, you could just my hand quite happily. Fantastic. Well flipping Johnny is absolutely brilliant choice for for I task them, then the next one, you sent three for me was and is it called the fifteen game? It's not right. Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you talk through this? Okay. Well, you basically got mine cars, and they got the numbers from one to nine written on them now to planets. They take it in turns to pick a card, and the winner is the first person to have this isn't board. Exactly three cards in the hand. The advent dean got it like so. Maybe you're not gonna have a game. Yeah. Let's. I'm a bit nervous, even. Let's, let's do this. I'm right. Said these calls a face operates. We can we can both see outright we both things. That's why we both think secret about it. Yeah. Right them yet. Seven eight nine okay. Would you like to go first or second and are pro I've no prep whatsoever for this game, Johnny? So I'll go. I'll go first, please. And I'll take the number three please. Okay. I'll take on the line. Okay. Right. I will go the number. Being triple or at the. Go the number eight please. Okay, well, I would say eight and three eleven got to take all otherwise you're going to get my plant. That was my plan. Okay. So three. So your you've taken for is that, right? Okay. Now your on nine. So I've got gotta take six. So I'm gonna I'm gonna take six Joni. Okay. Good. So you got now you got sick tonight, yet which way sport team. So I have to get one of awesome stuff. Yes. Take them wall. So you have a block to within nine you've got four moment. She's five there's no tense enough to worry about that. You've all you've got five and warm, which is sick. So I'm gonna have to take nine to block Joanie. Let's good of goodness. Lonzo ego six as good as they minus three is good. Six eight is good. Looks as we come to sort of end. Doesn't it? Picks a seven Lewis I. Youth. Yeah. You don't think anything making fifteen? Yeah. Okay. So I'll just I'll just take the tune draw. It's. I'm a heart rates go through the roof. Rookie Craig schedule is pretty good. Okay. Okay. So number of questions. I mean it's not is let's face it. It's not the most captivated game the world as it stands. I don't know how well it's they're up good questions that come up night. You could say, well, we ended in a draw will always end grow. Or is about clay's sometimes wine, if we play with best strategy, whether it was ended a draw. Or whether is it better go personal second. What do you think central central of nice questions, come up now how to answer questions that may be the sort of sense that we've sort of play the game of it like this before have you? Did you have that feeding Greg? It'll. Certainly the thought process felt the million. Yes. Okay. Well, look, take take you cards, one to nine right? And arranged them in a square on the table, and you're going to arrange them three by three square. But we're gonna make a magic square, right? Okay. Now. What's the magic someone of three by three much square? I hope it is fifteen of her thing. Right. So you go three three Squibb that is the three rows at fifteen three columns on the to diagnose. So. Now, this is the amazing thing, how many ways all their of getting three cards to add to fifteen. And in fact, if you add them up there, exactly eight right? And those the eight ways that you can see on your magic square. Now. What actually happened, then you chose three which is you begin axe so replace the three square, the nice didn't pick five which is the middle. So you replace that with zero. So what game we play. I don't want sound that like north and crosses villa it is what it is now. So if exiting what was saying is that the game of the game we played a northern crosses are the same game. Wow. Yeah. So now that to me is a very profound of medical idea that you go to things two things with apparently very different structure. And yet when you look at it, you find they got the same structure. So this is if you wanna get into group theory, this is what we call an is visible. So the two games are bec- in other way. And of course, the thing is we all know grosses we played north Andros is still the council. We know if you if you played I is advantage, but you also noted the two two players or experienced it should always an draw. So it needs to be you can wheel and all that knowledge from knots, and crosses, and apply it to our game. And it's a way of showing how efficient amounts is. Once you know, want their about groups, you can apply that to any group alight. Bountifully. It'd be absolutely beautiful. Johnny would use this with. Obviously, you could use it with anybody's plague. Also grosses really couldn't hear. So that, that, that would later primary would be very happy playing that. And the thing is such a Denic problem because if you go to four by four, if you have the concert one to sixteen you can try around ranging the much square where the magic number thirty four now but this time he got four rose four columns angle since ten, but there are many, many more than ten ways of making thirty four with four cards say so the argument breaks down. It's just so Cathy balanced. So. Yeah, I think that is a beautiful. I'm gonna ask a question age only and I almost hate myself for asking it. Right. So I want you to know before I say this, I despise myself, Robin toss this question, but I know listeners OBI wants me to ask. So I'll just put it crudely. What if we got limited curriculum time as we argued we have how can I just defy doing something like this as opposed to teaching students, some, some kind of giving them more practice on a on a specific skill procedure method or whatever that they struggle with? So what, what, what am I guess, one of us going around about ways, what is the intrinsic value of activity like this, like I 'cause I'm living doing it. But I'm what did you know what I'm saying? Well, what justify this as time pressure teacher doing something like this. I think is my question I think, is extremely question and one on very aware of having run up against time constraints myself in the classroom. That's why you asked me where it was start with my risks. Yeah. The answer is we start with the syllabus because because I feel if you want it, it's on the syllabus. It's affectively enrichment. And if you want in Richmond world, you know, go to enrich where what, what else, what more can you a for all your resources of that? But if you're him out stop this on the Senate. So I basically my risks have to be dead on the syllabus because that means they go a chance of being useful people. So this game. Yeah. I mean, how would it win its place in the curriculum? You might just decide it so nice. You'd have to include it. Or else you might we might do the might be like a snow day where you've lost Hoppy close, and you might might decide does not know pointing something, the harm to close will miss so you could do something on this. It has to kind of come to this. And I guess, ideally, we'd have we'd have all the time in the world to do to do this, it would it be fair to say that there is value in the conversations that this would illicit between students and and props this is something that could be used outside of the explicit mathematical contacts, as just a way to get kids talk in more 'cause that's valuable thing, right? Like just you being able to communicate mathematically with each other. Could we justify inclusion not wage totally? Think you do what tends to go wrong with. And I would say they're all students say you don't, don't feel curious much. It's, it's not something they used to doing. And I think this task I, I read prion hope it would actually begin to spark off a little Curiel stingier students. You know, and, and if you can get one of your kids really rather be plowing through exercises. If you get a look at this tossed, and save actually, well, actually, I get that. That's beautiful. Then such as step forward for your teaching learning so from that point of view, it might when its place on its own from tasks like no. This is what I was do John at the end of these the end of these podcast on the I usually go for a big long walks. I'm not only million things to think about, I'm gonna reflect to imitate way, about the lessons. I've learnt and this, this is something I know I'm going to be wrestling with that me where I am as a teacher. Now, where does an activity like this fits in Zaire, I feel the need to fit it in somewhere someday. Yeah. That's what I'm that's what I'm going to be wrestling with super, Johnny you now with third. Intrigued me these three. So we've mucks box about the fifteen game. And then, then number three three was can anyone tell the difference between token Pepsi, what was going on there, Johnny. Well, okay. So probably almost as a human physician do statistics. I lost to succeeding. And this topic of taste testing actively can you tell the difference between something something else is actually really an old see? It's important. Real world problem. Yes. Can you tell the difference being margin butter can is such a central? So this topic is very acceptable to students. It also introduces the idea. Testing which is probably the key idea about statistics. It also revises the distribution full them and sell them. So this is terrific, lessons. Also quite a lot of theater to it. You kind of say it's going to hit record like until Dipsy cocoa puffs in normally, you'll have a lot of people. Sticking hands on saying, yes. Yes. Yes. And then you have to discuss how you going to construct this experiment is completely straightforward. You have to have a blindfold you have to have somebody else coin. So you decide which which whether you're going to present the person cocoa Pepsi, you have to with kind of we can, you can refine experiments in the glass of water. So in between tights they have to have a blessed declared a pilot. And then, of course, it's very rare to get a student with ten ten just doesn't really happen. But quite often, you'll get sodden rates or nine or whatever. And then immediately significance days, right before. Say, well, the person was guessing. Then how many would you expect them to guess? And you just do the straight into this idea drawing out the so you have ten guesses that leads the, by the mill a half distribution. You can sketch that out. You could Mark in critical areas and the way go, so it's to me. It's just it's a fun lesson on people people enjoy saying, whether people can tell the difference between go converts. And so it's a some sort of students are to them. And yet it just leads on perfectly to what was later. So I love I love that now. You you're on the right podcasts. I'm I'm a massive stats farm, and we get people on here and I am not the head into be honest with the others, moan about starts as a big fund. And but one thing I've struggled with, with starts his is making those abstract those big concepts less abstract and more. Yes, tons of a bit better fries, and hypotheses tested and significance levels. That's one kids re I find really sure together heads around something like this for me. It feels right to it. Feels it feels something they can remember because of the phone elements of it, but also because of the deep mathematical principles that are that are behind it. Yeah, I love Johnny again, this for many years. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think the whole business about Israel's level. Here. It's actually fairly surprising result that she that turns if you carrying out of five percent, level test, then tennis evident violence, that begins, but eight is not allowed. So, so it the student gets eight hundred ten right. Then percent level. That's significant. But of course then you talk about changing the significance level. What happens you make ten percents on now? Eight is gone now. So you get across the idea. The level of the test is crucial as well. And there are top tests, and there are less tough tests. If actively. So, yeah, I think it's a great example. Great example of, of a lesson. It's got to be popular. Absolutely love it. And then the final one is sent through Johnny is in. And this intrigue me as well proving route to irrational. Now again this. I'm intrigued. Yeah. How you use this practically? What, what does this look like what purpose does it serve? Okay. Well, this, this is. This is my, my mouth, that's all I guess, I sort of feel this is one of those cultural milestones that anybody who does I should say. I suppose it is on the syllabus in the sense that use proof by contradiction approved that risk ritter's rational. But I just had this. It's such a beautiful arguments that the standard one, I think, anyway, the way it just flows kind of symmetry to it. And the way the logic proceeds robbers inevitably like chess game. So this final idea that you proved you start off assuming that route to is rational. And then you end up situation where you've managed to cut the ground away from under yourself, effectively, and the only way out is to say your initial assumption must be wrong. And you know this the power these arguments is just incredible. And if you don't like the old arguments people, another big, cliche the old argument, there are rather lovely geometrical arguments, as well too, so that route to irrational. So you go choice available to you. But I just think I just think the whole business of number is so crucial that we start with idea of, of a natural number. We extend that to the idea of an inch. Extend that the idea of branching. Extend to they are. They're irrational number. And then we extend to got it out. So the complex number I mean that sort of that sort of requirement, but conceptual number increases like that as it has done in the history of six. Seems to be very powerful really lovely that Johnny, I absolutely brilliant selection of tasks. And I wonder you mentioned earlier that kind of one way that these activities may potentially go. Wrong is students not not talking not engaging with the activity. They, they had success in the past with, with the teachers, tell them out to do something them, recreate an doing ten questions in the perfectly happy with without style of lesson. And I've certainly talked plenty of shoots, and like that in the past a wonder with all your experience, could you just reflect just for a few moments on how to get round that problem in particular? But also, what else have you learned from running these tests in the past kind of almost top tips onto the better phrase to, to, to enable students to get the very most out of these that, that, that possible? Okay. Well, I mean, I think. I suppose I'm committed to the idea that every every student every child every people capable of being struck by of Matic's in some shape, or form, and hold all those right, tragic, but a lot of students, don't come to them. If you are students just one bit of money that you thought was really sweet. There were lots of will be able to do that. Yes. And that is high fines a little tragic early. I'd also also, I think once once you have found that amass rarely does something to you, then you can build the rest of your my round Brown that, so for example, I, I was lucky I got a second chance at university about. So I went to the opening diversity, and then I went to myemma see you ES. And I had had a very strange experience of designing Jesus worksheet. When suddenly, I realized that I was doing something that was was kind of rather be owned solving equations that Jesus e. It was like disappearing rabbit hole. And I, I was I was in stock promotes due to teach a lesson. I, I actually was faking so much. I couldn't actually go to the last night. I just had to put my head round and say, look, you don't have to make a snob with at me. And I just went Benesch months, and, and, you know, ten years later that problem became a subject, myemma see because I was asked what I wanted to do. Luckily, I had professors who were kind enough to let me do what I wanted really. And so I spent three years studying that problem and once once that problem, which is to do with as turn down to lead on things like elliptic curves, the cross ratio function, this little periodic recurrence relations that we were talking earlier. But those are now have a really profound, my relation to learn this topics are. Are need them. I need them the my problem. Yes. And every time I now land and with a new this amounts, I didn't care difficult today's because I offer. So how does this relate? So my problem. And that makes it easier to learn because you're coming out to take your angle. So I, I want, I want my seems to have that favorite problem. They love in mice, then in a sense of being carriage to hand the rest of my around it. So to speak. This Lewis solely idea that joining Halime on. Okay. Well, if you're talking about things that could go wrong address there is there is another. I got listed. Algebra is sometimes people can sort of take a wrong turn within Vesta Gators means they end up with well, sorry, I ought to replace some people take a choice, which means they end up with horrible algebra's today. And that is a real killer. A risk burly if you're busy, actress on Patras. Well. So you have to you have to design the design the task in such a way that you head off the difficult about spread of the past. Yes. And that can sometimes be a case of, if you've a choice of say, three consecutive numbers, not doing X Expos Expos to do next, minus one accent X, plus one is those, those little decisions that seem inconsequential can view dramatic ramifications, the further you get through a problem, right? Absolutely another thing I've gone in the direction, I read gone to Lord's spelling things out a little bit more. Yes. And also making a bit more bulletproof know. The not completely ruined show a little bit mobile. I mean, the other thing I think the problem with risks is the Ican the teacher can love them. Version of teacher, lust here. See you can be convinced. Everything's going Britain in your loving loving loving it. But yet in fact, the amount of learning hang on, maybe less than you think, and you need to keep sober because you need to make sure your during the maximum to make sure that learning happens. I been counted this, what you do in that situation is not just the case of keeping on wandering around the groups and just getting a sense of what's, what's going on, as opposed to just assume everything's working out fine. Yes. Little so nothing. There are times when you look around, if you certainly right task then you may get situation where people are so absorbed in the toss they really down. And that's, that's, that's, that's a treat for the teacher, don't rest on your laurels because five minutes time it could be completely different. So. Yeah. And also the problem with risk is this thing about whether the teachers really competent about not now it may be. It's. You're worried about being on the end of certain questions. But by definition, you may get questions you know expecting and are you up for that? And in a if you're not up for it, then maybe just more sensible to teach him more standard lesson because, you know, I would say probably a bad risks lesson is worse than a good trend. Lesson about s- interesting. And that's what just purely because it's the less potential for learning to happen in dot on structured, less structured environment. If, if the convent nine fought input into as opposed to a tightly structured traditional lesson. At least there's gonna be some kind of base level of learning without without the argument. I think also it's nice went unexpected things happening across, but only really nice. If you can deal with them effectively, if you, if you in he can't deal with them, then you may risk losing your student's competence in you. Yes. But only, I think it's partly our cable teams say, you know, that's interesting. I haven't thought about, I'm going to have to go away, and think nothing quite reasonable. Yes. I suppose what you're trying to he present. So is that a new value? The students doing some improvising. And he could challenge the students just go away. And, and explore it themselves and come back and let you know that's that's reasonable and daily these tasks. That's what students will want to do, though, want sake away. Brightness time. They'll want to give up time on that computer games. Do mass. That's what we want. After yet. I couldn't agree more and hit the nail on the head with another recurring theme that keeps coming up in the podcast. And it's something that I've been guilty of in the past, and that's, that's not doing the tasks fully that I'm gonna give my students and that's body north, whenever it's a set of ten questions. If there's a obey of stinker in that I've not thought through my kids on prepared for and so on even worse with one of these activities. I mean let you say there's something nice about being surprised themselves in the lesson. But if you surprise, every single thing that happens becomes a bit of an issue does. Right. And to just two more things. I want to want to talk about Johnny before not some reflections on the new big three and we've talked on this, but I just wondered if you any thoughts on it, and that's, that's the importance of talk in the classroom. Particularly with these, these kind of open ended tasks and the rest in particular and Easter away. The you found to help students get Batra having the kind of mathematical conversations that the likely to be beneficial. The learning. Yes, I think I, I my sort of baseline was always that discussion between students was actually the most important thing in the classroom. Early. But you quite right. It's not necessarily something that people immediately. Learn or measly go that they have to learn to. So I think the reason I like discussion is, it's very likely to be at the right level. It people people expressing thoughts is about my buddy. It's going to be level whereas on talking from the front, there's no guarantee at all. I mean, we're talking the right level. I think the whole business about how you choose. The groups is really interesting. Jay should say to kids just just get into brench grapes. What do you say you start numbering last one, two, three four, three four all the ones get together? Well in both those in is you may end up with pretty much the same groups every time capital. And the whole bit. Friendship groups think square saying, because will people learn better in a friendship reporting a mixed group? I think that's the research come recently was they compared Griddle for he will all friends with a group of four he went three friends and a stranger and they certainly task going away. They went on. They discovered that the group of four friends. They enjoy the experience mall, but learn less right? Well, the group with a stranger enjoyed the experience less but learn mall. I sometimes by colleagues sotos, absolutely crazy during this. I would like cell spreadsheet, which would get would choose the grapes at random our I took. But the case along with that they saw that was sort of fan that I wasn't I wasn't trying to manipulate some outcome by using group in a certain way. Yes. So I think it's I find interesting how the how those. I think a great need the generosity in this notion. I think if you, if it's a table becomes very competitive. That's a problem, you know, I think I think stint to get the task quickly need to help students don't get the task quickly. I need those needs to share the contribution time you need time. Whole the whole thing. But you don't have to just coast along lane. Letting everyone else do the work. It's a very delicate thing. I suppose I think registar so great because they're a bit of a level I suppose, but what I mean by that is that you may find that. An inverted komo's weakest students will they more ventures. They'll be more brain, though, being prepared to take risks on the problem. Whereas if you tight, an inverted commerce strongest Jeevan. Vaulted. Go. And so those two students could learn awesome out from each other. I think. So yeah, I'm a huge fan of discussion. I was said to my students look your to learn more from each other than you are for me. I, I generally believe that which is not really, which is not to say that the exposition teacher provides is not important because it's very important. But for me the key activists classroom was students talking together about Matt's. That was the thing. And do you have jointly? Any obviously task specific questions that you yourself mass shootings to, to prompt this discussion, whether it's with small groups, whether it's whole class, but whether any kind of prompts or question, Stam's or any any good questions that, that tended to illicit some really good discussions from students. All really kind of deep thinking, for want of a better phrase. Yeah. I think I think questioning is, is, is such a thing, isn't it on not convinced? So I was very good at it for long. Periods of. I by the end, though is using many why or the lot. In fact, I think really if you're going to use them, you really have to use them every lesson. So, so, basically as kids, come in, they take up a whiteboard in a way that they just routine, the great thing about those was that. What it meant was. When you ask a question you everybody to write down there on so, and so there's no posting it as a teacher asked a question you get one ounce from one St. that doesn't really tell you a lot about the whole passes thinking, so you have to get seems to commit it's not enough of them to sit there. And the only thing I think that they actually have to write something down. It's, it's a it's a big step. And once he once you get the feeling that the behind this, they'll be much more use to boating and committing close. Which I think is a good thing. Yeah. So questions. Yeah. I mean, I, I did have a big deal about look. They're nice silly questions on. There are no silly answers. And I really tried to live that out. In, if I got a question of go, an answer, I thought was clearly in Brazil combs wrong, then I would just trying to see that Ron and show that led to a dead end in some way. So you're not exactly judging, but you are showing that leads to contradiction. So I tried to try to address romances like that. I, I suppose they were they were one or two times. So I didn't didn't manage that there was. There are some mistakes that are just lazy, and it is reasonable for teacher, too big loss, freighted. I mean. I mean, I had one one one student came up with the end to solve X Quere equals sixty four. And so what he did was he took sixty four to the other side. So your excellent, excellent mine, sixty four equals zero. I like it yet. And then he applied the attic formula this. And, and moreover, he applied the Golden Palm the wrongly. So now I cried. That. Was it was an three weeks to his exams as well? But I think that may be allowed or not. So. Interesting. Absolutely really. I don't know what you'll take miss Johnny is the Easter dangerous. Sometimes that we, we expend both a lot of energy. I'm the loft time trying to figure out west some of these kind of wrong ounces come from for wants a better phrase. And the reason I say this. I've often felt over the years that actually he's been quite damaging and confusing for students where when I go and explore a wrong answer to a question like okay, so David said the answers fide let's think about could it be five while if it was five will do this, this, and this, and this whereas particularly have been out of conversations with, with mama court recently and palmist thinking, is it best, sometimes just to say, no, that's wrong. And move on to actually want the right answer is, and the maybe will combine to exploring wine that was wrong later on, as opposed to when it's this early phase when Stimson learning something for the first time the meeting a concept for the first time actually, it's more. Portent. They hear the rights of early on. And then we can start to introduce why things are wrong a little bit later. Does that make any sense? Is there any any do agree with? Yeah. Do I think I think it's partly this time thing you know, we just did not have open ended lessons. We, we can't we can't do that. And I in my rich in my rich stores, working, I, I would be quite directed. I would I would know that they'll be one of the things I would want teachers were wants to notice, and I would direct seems towards that. In groups, have you thought about this moving this direction and further, I would be is right to about wrong answers, pursuing them. I think you. Yeah. I think there is a case for just saying, look that's wrong, but it's not something I would naturally do myself necessarily. I mean I, I wouldn't build thickening content with that. Did might they might be the most simple thing to do in the context of the lesson. You don't to get distracted from the main point. I, I prefer this idea of shelving, and just putting to one side, we'll come discuss that later. But yeah, I, I mind I don't mind. Changes being fairly directive. Okay. As long as there is a chance for exploration bills. Well, that's fine. Fantastic. Well final thing I wanted to talk to you about joining. This is something we've never spoke to anyone on the podcast, actually, that's that's textbooks and in particular, and what kind of makes a textbook and just just a bit of background on. This is the this'll be my fifteenth year of teaching I remember when I first teaching the worst thing you could do in the world was was how attacks book and this was a shock to me because I'd I'd learnt math, particularly nothing. Jesus through some amazing techs forgotten behind me in my office. Where were recording this? And you were seen as a really bad thing to tax book him, probably in the first five or six years, and my teaching career, and then as of late. They seem to be kinda working their way back in. I've seen some beautiful them exercises activities within textbook. So I just wonder sickly someone like yourself Johnny, who's very much in favor of the kind of rich tasks where textbooks fifteen thirty kind of your philosophy of teaching. And what makes what makes a good one as opposed to ever ropy war. Okay. We'll just a bit of background, I left the classroom, I suppose twenty fifth teen and the lots of things sense including writing textbooks, I've probably written. Let's say six or help, wow. Sick. Soil. Take been onto the team who've written six textbooks show, and it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, the first thing to say is there around you think that textbooks, really not cracked up survey. My friend wrote my Gullickson has written of. Oh, called teaching textbook. And he's very commissioned. That idea. So, yeah. I mean, certainly when I was leaving teaching. We are textbooks, increasingly just piled up in the stock room. We would we would give women textbook to a stingy wanted, but nowadays, something like the to grow website, which, which has everything online. This is where I think takes a heading and I think the days of paper textbooks may have been made, certainly a little bit number with some. So, yeah, as I said, I got involved in writing sex books, which has been a very interesting activity. I should say you'll give him very strict guidelines resigned have been about rice deputy, I haven't been completely free hand to write whatever I wanted. But I always tried to make it something I would want to do myself that same principle. If you're writing stuff that bores you, then it's going to boil whoever Jefferson's, take this on. So I have better writings experts, I think I have started to use in particular when writing exercises, I have started to use these variation. Techniques, which have been very helpful in my exercise more. Interesting. I wonder about the integral scientists what I would call random in the sense you can just dive in the middle, if you don't know word, then you click on the word and you'll get a definition straight away. It's all high bylanes so that, that would I'm calling random access textbook. Whereas patex circles Linnet, you start the fronts, and you go through that means those textbooks are potentially as of a mountain to climb on they I mean, how many people rid stars page, while and goes through breath venting? So I kind of prefer the, the sort of hyperlink ones and the textbook that I've written myself recently is, is the proving ground, which is published by the ATM, and that is Portia problems, you can start anywhere. Three levels, and you work your way through the level with the hyper lanes. So, you know, you can you can study that book random it's against. Idea, randomness, which I think is quite why interesting fun. So I should also say that, if you're going to make textbooks pay, there are some textbooks, that, do pay, you know that if you if you're passer Brighty Jesus book, but he's going to sell a lot. You're going to be fine. If you're on royalties, my textbooks for largely for the math level, which is a much, much smaller. And it is a hope my, this is what might. It's quite hard to make any money. That's not the publisher sports in is the they without exception of the people of what within publishing absolute for. It's just that. It just as I say, I think this is quite hard times for hard copy paper publishers just they just as. So I'm wondering what the future that time? You take spaghetti's. That's fascinating. Just you just one more thing on tax, Johnny. You mentioned that some writing kind of using the principles of variation to, to write certain sequences of questions with within the textbook as an exercise itself. Now, this is something that's obviously obvious bit. Controversial, particularly with me at the moment with, with my variation theory website of get a kick back about this. And I'm always looking to improve and get better just wanted yet. Any tips there, if you will if you look into together a sequence of, whether it's five questions, ten questions or whatever, and you look into kind of draw students attention to certain critical aspects county start thinking about those sequences on all what does the process of writing a sequence that uses some of the principles variation? What, what does that look like? Okay. We'll search just say what's variation theory means to me of this island, which is okay? You want to set a series of questions that will. Tackle. You could just random questions. But that misses a teaching opportunity because if you choose questions care play and Brown, especially you control the variation some, you'll promises perfectly in China, actually create an understanding with other go of its. The student. Now, I have in a sense, I was using Buryatia theory, robbers, unconsciously, and some of our risks. Now, let's suppose I think I have a particular take on some of this. If you say you will have six questions to address topic. If you have three provinces will. So let's say three years, three numbers IBM. See how many hummy Tyson's of ibn see. And the answer is there are six now that six questions sounds about right for next. So what you do is you get your. Geez three numbers ABC and then you, they Bill in the gaps in the question in the six different ways, and very open, if you do that, there is a sort of connection between these six results because of the way you constructed them, so you can get the student to concentrate on the little many theorem that you want them to discover. As sort of a huge, if you like so that the awards as many there, and they're practicing all these kind of mom skills on our song. Yvonne, the practice. That to me works that works the risk to me. Yes. And if you look through my elections that quite a lot of along those lines, I like the idea of a student picking three numbers to start with, because it gives them investment, it actually gives them a chance to challenge your result. Your minute there is your minute. They're always true. Well, let's try with mice numbers. Let's see if I could be on this. Can I just Joanie not sorry? Sorry to press appointment. I'm just I'm really fascinated by this one thing that ruling through my head's. At the moment of the last couple of months is is, is the danger that if we give students these, these vary sequences are sorry for want of a better phrase, the these more carefully Verity is way controlling the promises is the danger that wreck specs in a bit too much for them. There were expecting them to focus attention. What's change in, and one in Patna may may or may not have on the answer, and so on, and so forth. But also the simultaneously experts in them to to practice. Whatever method procedural concept that we want them to want to a better phrase, to gain, fluency in and what I'm wrestling with at the moment is, is it best to give them some completely disconnected isolated practice? I so they attain a certain level fluency and then start to introduce the. The more Catholic considered variation. So that students have got they've got something left to folk mentally to focus on. What's changing and start on the stone. These relationships does that make any sense at all is, is not something degree with all note. Okay. So, so Craig you're saying should be practice. And then there's more exciting Buryatia practice that. Yeah. I think so, okay. Well, yes, I mean, you're sort of saying, should we sort of do the boring stuff first, and then the exciting stuff second, but with the caveat that I mean might my regional instinct was no, we shouldn't because variation can get the best of both worlds? We get the practice and we get them to focus on these interesting Malaysian ships. But what I'm increasingly finding is if students are new to a particular procedure concept, that's where all their energy attention goes on just trying to get to grips with that. And that they have nothing left to attend to on. No. Notice these, these interesting patterns or relationships and connections? So that's why I'm thinking wounds weather, a bit of fluency practice. I actually opens the door to the more interesting maths that can come through the variation that not. That's what I'm pondering. I'm interested in your take Johnny. Yeah. I suppose I think the trouble is you may have turned them off with perjury truth. They get to explore bit. That's the danger. Well, let's go. Let's go back to success them. Imagine if it's just short sharp five questions they get them, right? They feel good about themselves that motivated. And now let's go onto that kind of reaction because we spoke about before we should we should own the rest the night in the motivating power of success. Right. So it's totally. But then, you know, I don't see why you couldn't squeeze, the variation does not have to be complicated tree. You could break Zampbell writes, an exercise one test, but recently, I was doing inequalities and I had something like three x plus four is less than five x percent, right? A simpler. And then I made it Borex plus for is less than perfect spur seven. And then by the x plus four is less than by that. Now, the now all in doing is varying one visions. Now suddenly got this statement, find explorers Essen pilots for seven and hang on a minute. I think this is this is perfectly reasonable time to bring in as little surprise and say, well, actually this can't work, you know, this is there are some inequalities have most listens. And I think that kind of. I agree with you. If it's if it's if you're mass experiences just surprised the price of vice then you got nothing to hang in thing on you need to have, you know. Toolkits along in your longest memory, but you can you can bring out other shore. But I think just to have a little bit excited as you're working through routine things spine. I would say, yeah, I, I agree again. This this, I want to fully agree. But again, this is just one of wrestling with at the moment. I'm just wondering whether the case for something, where all students have to worry about is just trying to essentially get the question right from onto the ones that a phrase them build this confidence that abilities feeling of success that then can bring them through to the exercise. And I wonder whether it's maybe it's been my poor choice of exercises that props has been a bit too much going on. That's been a bit few too many surprises in that. So, yeah, I'll continue wrestling with this journey. But yeah, I appreciate your. I mean, I think it maybe just a this discerning sent down to teachers and teacher choices. Nothing that may not be some global role here. You only, you know, your kids. By definition. So, yeah. Fantastic. Well, what will move on now is, it's just a few reflections, Johnny faith, and some question to you is, and this may be an impossible question to answer. But is there a particular either piece of research or book that springs to mind that this, this significantly influence your approach to all your, your purse to thinking about math education? Yeah. This is the there is one book that I have loved consistently from the first time, I've always it, which was starting points by dictator and bamboo and Saunders. It was. It's a, it's a book, I suppose, it's a kind of Popa real of the Tyrian, it's a mixture of investigations of student work. There's playgrounds of house allow the clause they're on discussions, cuisine roads. It's also the thrown together in in the same way, I learned math. So I mean I, I learned in messy way I know I do, and this sort of mirrors loud, if you like, and there's some of the investigations, they just are mom'll, and this is just a passion all the way through. They also a lot of humor. There are cartoons. There are. Their stories from. Muslim culture. For example, they have there's a brilliant story about. The Muslim teachers stands up in the pulpit and says his congregation he says, do you know what I'm going to talk to you about today? And the people looking children say, no, we don't neither. Well. What's the point of my talking to you then get and day to? He's stands up and says, do you know what I'm gonna talk about today? And the people say they've got this plan now this, yes, we know what we're going to talk to us about today and. The team says, well if you know already was the point my saying. And then three the teacher stands up and says, do you know will talk to you about today? And the people plan this as well. And I say, well, half of us know and harvest. And they teach says, well, I suggest the half that no teach the half. And I actually has picture, the small teachers like that, that is small teaching, I think, in a nutshell. So, yeah. So it's a very rewarding. Book is very funny is out of print. Sadly, I don't know why. But if you're lucky enough to pick up a, a second copy, gopher Fantine, just gives the name of that one more time, Johnny. It is starting point by tartar ban will and Saunders fantastic. Cpac and second question. And is there anything important you've changed your mind about over the years? Johnny. Yes. Yes, I did think about this. I thought, well, I think. I would say that being a brilliant master doesn't mean you have to be brilliant everywhere. I think there are many teachers who would be wonderful six college teachers, but who would not necessarily be great in school. I used I used to think that you had to be great everywhere, but his. But it's not true. And I think you should try and play to your strengths, and your choice and my choice of that time. It's comprehensive was was a, a, a slightly crazy. One didn't play tonight strikes. I had called coming up to me saying joining the hell you doing here. The really seriously mystified as to why was there. And so, you know. I had people I've had people who teach six dollars, you left to go work in eleven sixteen schools, because they couldn't take the preparation involved in sixth on, you know. You just have to find the place where you'll happy, where you'll gifts could be used really. Yeah. I think that's super super important point. Johnny obsolete. Loft that one final reflection again, this, this may be a bad question. Don't nobody is anything you wish you dome when you started out in, in your teaching journey your journey with mathematics, the you know, now, so this is this is me, Johnny. Now talking back to Johnny. And he'd say exactly, right a guy. Well, I, I, I all I would say, well done because teaching is just when it's going when teaching is just the best in the world. Yes, because you're teaching subject you love your teaching. You're teaching young people who are just parentally entertaining. And then the whole business at high, actually combine my two people is just a totally fascinating subjects anyway. So you got those three things going. The trouble is when teachings going badly at really is terrible. Sound? So I would say you know, look after yourself because probably not anybody else. Well. Say you know. If you are in terrible situation, it's okay to walk away from it in Doug trying, I would say, probably trying not to push yourself over the edge in the way that I did because that really does cost very long shadows over the rest of your career. It is possible in equal. Quin pickets off assault against somewhere else. You're not ready. Well. Tastic super about lice again, Johnny brilliant stuff, and it's time one hundred thirteen if big three so. And what either three websites blog post books, whatever whatever you want. Would you recommend our listeners checkout up links to these in the show notes? So what, what I big three Johnny? Okay. Well, I suppose I would recommend the Matic on website. Which is it's just a beautiful thing. It's, it's programmed by socal lichner. And he is just such a talent my goodness. It's just so beautifully put together just the power of the internet in a rather mama's way. So that's my first website. I think I would have to mention rich enriching has been a big influence a meal on the way. And I think it's a really models resorts, and it's, it's very finest one but just lanky that. Hi, suppose Mark mccord's long. I enjoy a lot. I think, you know, you education, very lucky to have Mark in bolt in the way he is. He's very generous, also of his blog, he talks about stuff, this of my Matic's, which. He talks about baby taking up, so home, suppose not for mill he talks about his illness, very graphically. Berry inspiring -ly, so, yeah, I, I think long doesn't necessarily always get it, right. He's a he's, he's a wonderful person to listen to pretty much any topic. I think he is. Absolutely. And then list can check out my two interviews with Mark where we disagree on a few things. He's hard to argue with because he's super smart as well. But his yeah, he does have some, some strong opinions. Great choices. Johnny Anna, Elsa. Not. He sent me through. Links to kind of well, two books, one kind of Kapiti you'd recommend listeners checkout g to talk briefly about those. Yes. So when I was preparing to go into each ING sort of four years ago. I found my cool Marlins book on the craft of the classroom incredibly helpful. As I say, is written in nineteen seventy five so it's, it's quite in some bits parts of it. Have not dating too badly. But it is a little bit old person it places. But it just makes you realize teaching is timeless activity. And he, he really talks about retains talks about seating into the hater. He talks about the kinda teaching skills that you need everybody needs everybody. So you'll say heels talks about the loneliness teaching saying that she. Teachers, spend large chunks of their time without adults conversation. And he also talks about business that absolute exists between a student and the teacher, very sensitively. So I'm a huge fan that book, everybody enjoyed going back reading, again this podcast. And then, you know, I suppose Malcolm swans work, they came out with the standards unit of years ago. Improving learning six he manages to express in, in that period. Just how I feel about Mike. Also how how how I feel about discussion how I feel about connections learning than transmission? Teaching. There's a brilliant range of tasks to prevent discussion there, there are wonderful styles of tasks that he discusses. And it's just a it's just a one to me. It's a great confirmation of what I believe are teaching. Was one of the wall on the starting point teaching mathematics, things when you send for. Yeah, that's the one I don't about greatly. But the tartar ban will cylinders one God with us out of print is that said. Awesome. Real shame. Got it got it. Well listeners can look about maybe the price on EBay, just gonna go through through the roof. Now trying to try out on see. Well, Johnny, we, we've reached the end of this conversation. And I wanna thank you for cultural things. And the most obvious is thank you for giving your time today. This is been an epic. We've been on the phone for about three hours now. And it's I could I could've spoke for for much longer. This is been absolutely fascinating. And we've wide range of stuff here, it's been fascinating here in a bell. You struggles with with teaching in the early days because, as I said to you at the start of this conversation is something I can relate to. And I know they'll be thousands of listeners who will be just feeling a lot better because of that. And the way reflected on not in reflections as been absolutely brilliant. So I love that as well as all the areas of mathematics that we've got to dive into. So thank you for that, Johnny. And also, just thank you for what you do the risks. I'm. I remember when I first encountered those early only macrey and I was, I was blown away because it was around about the time when it was, it was hard to find good quality math resources. And if you did they tended to be kind of scattered about everywhere. Whereas here was a collection of top quality stuff that I could use my students, and some of them, I could use an adapter slightly, teas my, Jesus students, and they just showed me what true quality task designed lot, like and I've been looking off to kind of be revisiting those over the last couple of years have been doing a lot of thinking about my own practice and stuff and again, that they hold up so, well, Johnny. They're absolutely wonderful activities in any brand new further swans, a superb. And, and to hear that you thinking as well about doing some to bridge difficult transition between an is certainly music to my is. So for all the wonderful things that you've done Johnny in particular in this conversation. And thank you so much has been up sleep. Pleasure has been a great pleasure. Wow. Conversation, that was I flip in loved speak into Johnny. It was fascinating for so many reasons. All the math reasons I'm, I'm obsessed with diving into tasks design at these days. It just gives me so much to reflect upon but also that stuff at the start about about mental health about awareness about the challenges and stress teaching and indeed us where I wanna start this take way. Am section thinking about that. And I really enjoyed what Johnny said about if you're not with it yourself, psychologically, and I think that's, that's such an important point that obviously most people listen to this will be teachers or involved in involved in education and were biased, because I always say teaching the hardest job in the world, and whatever people kind of, don't teach combat me and say, why. And I said, well, I always argue that you've always got to be on top form. So if salutes gone wrong in your life. For your knock it or your real or anything like that, when you walk into that classroom, you've still got to be beach. Gotta be positive the energies got to be there. It's almost like you've got to put a mask on, and I remember one of my conversations with Gregg Ashman are thinking it was the first time, Greg was on the show, and he said something really interesting, I'm in regard to behavior. But I think it's I think it's appropriate here. He said that whenever students were behaving badly, and he used to take it really personally useful thing. He found was to think of himself as a pulpit, the almost kind of is kind of like an outer body experience. Take a step back and say, no, the teacher is appropriate here. The kids are performing badly behaving badly for the pulpit. They're insulting the pulpits the being nasty to the pulpit that not doing it to me. It's not a personal thing against me. It's against the pulpit. That is the teacher. And I found that something something really useful to, to kind of distance myself because I take everything really, really, really personally, I'm, I'm not particularly good at criticism as has been apparent when people have been slagging off, variation theory website, left. Right. And center. Our phlegm. A bit better. But certainly my early days of teaching that was something I found, particularly problematic, and I come back after after days, teaching and let's say, for example of four lessons at gone pretty well. But in, in the fifth lesson generally had gone. Okay. But a couple of kids have been playing around at playing off and mass in a bow, and then one kid sentiment nasty or something like that. That's all I would think about it. Would it would bleed over into the night? And if it was a Friday would bleed over into the weekends. And then what I found how name was, if I did have a problematic class reading a problematic student. All my time will be thinking it will be spent worrying about when I was going to teach them again. So I'll never forget this are used to teach the teach this class. I won't name who they are. And they were particularly bad on a Tuesday afternoon and, and choose the afternoon was the only time I had them in the afternoon during the week the rest of the time it was in the morning and choose the afternoon. They were flipping nightmare on Easter dread Tuesday afternoon and like. Early days address, upstart dreading around about choosy morning and then not fed back into Monday night at stopping God. I've got Tamara Tuesday afternoon, and then it would be Mundi more than dreading. It thinking God is nearly Tuesday. And it got so bad over the weekend up thinking about it. So Friday nightside everything. All god. Is that lesson on Tuesday again? Then the worst was sometimes even get to the end of the lesson Tuesday afternoon, big of big side relief. All that Sato van now think I'll Gardiner in another say six days, and twenty three hours or whatever I've, I've gotten them again. And this, this is the problem. I think this is what makes teach in incredibly difficult that you can't, you can't let not get t because you just can't to job. You just comb function. Now, obviously, I'm describing something that pales into insignificance compared to the experiences, Johnny described. But what's what, what I found so much better? Why why I think I'm teaching better these days than. I used to his partly because I'm thinking about it more in terms of the kind of pedagogy in the research, and so not, that's definitely one part of it. But I tell you what another part of it is. I'm just generally just a happy person. I think it's up to us Janis terminology. I'm more with it myself, psychologically. So I can go into that classroom. And if any things aren't going, well, I don't take it all on board. Personally myself I can have that Bitta distance from it, and I can switch off a bit more at nights and still drag things about us all, that's just me as a person. But I it certainly doesn't have such a negative effect on me as it used to have. And yeah, if I the reason I wanted to say this, and then the reason I'm just kind of so pleased in grateful that Johnny brought it up as I know that the teachers listen to this, you were going through a tough time, whether it's an in that personal life or whether it's, you know, in that school, and so on, and so forth, and, and just to say, we'll see things one. You're not alone. God on mighty. I've been there Johnny's been that. Some some people that you think would be the best teachers in the world that they've been there they've struggled. And Secondly, it gets better and for me a big part of that was getting myself sorted. And then that bled Inza getting my kind of teaching battery my relationships bathroom sewn, and so forth. So that that's the kind of first thing I wanted to mention second thing is. I want I want to talk a little bit about tasks design here, because that fifteen task that Johnny did. Now, I had a great time doing the but as I said, to Johnny during the conversation, the struggle for me is where does that fifteen? How can I just defy spending curriculum time doing that because he feels like I should be able to it feels like a positive experience, that I want my kids to have in the way that I would have it. So I'm thinking there's, there's a couple of ways, it kind of feels like an indeterminate tippety to me, and bought the problem with kind of moving things to end of term is they kits pickled. They've the not as important. If all says, it's the last week of term and kids should come from lesson. Of course, we've got is some for maths today. It's significance is important in. There is kind of drops. I think a little bit. And once once kids don't see something as important, the effort levels go down that they stop thinking hard and they start learning as much. So is it something, the I could do at the start of the year to kick start the turn to, to get students into the mold of what the kind of maths that we're going to do is like how one them to think how does not always at Crichton's how can approach these tasks from different angles props. That's where it fits in fits infamy book. This is something I'm certainly kind of wrestling with at the moment. Now that more of my teaching is for want of better phrase, explicit, instruction, or teacher, led instruction, these tasks. I'm really careful where I put them whereas in the past I, I'll tell you exactly what would happen. And in the past. out of dot compensation. We Johnny and the next day everyone of my classes would have been doing that fifteen task and we'd all about a great time. But now I'm just questioning is it the right time for it? I want as many kids as possible to get as more childhood as possible, and so on and so forth. So I just wanted to throw that out that particularly fit for anyone listening who's under on the gonna similar journey to me over the last few years in the sense that teachings changed a little bit, where task like that fits in the you now task that you yourselves find inherently enjoyable, where deport them in how much time do you spend on them and what he take our because as William says everything we do teachers an opportunity costs because it's times that were not spend doing something else. So what, what comes out for that Tusla out to go in there? And if you have any answers, let me know because I'm struggling with that one, another quaint takeaway, I love this for from Johnny as students what she favourite problem. What's your favorite maths? Now, I know if I Salat my shooting star, they won't have a clue. They won't have an answer and haven't spoken to Johnny and reflected on this that feels wrong to me now because I know what my answer straightaway. Monty hall flicking love that Monty hall problem, I love anything probability of any kind of counter intuitive results involving probability before I said to my shins, even my A-level students, what she favored problem. I'm not convinced that they would ever have an answer. So I mean is that justification for doing tusk like that? So that students can talk about problems. Talk about things that they enjoy outside of their kind of relatively narrow curriculum. That is GCE or even level. So I don't know my solution to how against you sell an answer to what she favorite problem, whether it is just exposing kids to lots of different problems. Then again, it comes back to window. I have time to do that. And so on and so forth, but I would be upset if I said to one of my kids what she favorite problem in this. I don't know. And yet, I'm pretty sure that's what they're on. Would be, so that's something I just need to kind of wrestle with as well. And again, I'm on a postcard, if you solve that one for me and two more quick ones and this is something I'm wrestling with now fluency before variation. And this was whenever I spoke to Mark McCall Sam. And then we, we discuss this in the podcast, the fish students to get the most out of varied sequences or what I may call intelligent practice. Do they need a certain degree of fluency, because if they if they don't have fluency in the basics to, to kind of the terminology of cognitive, cognitive, science will all their working memory? Capacity all them working memory resources, all their attention will that be taken or by just trying to carry out the procedural do the method or do the basics, and they'll simply have nothing left to attend to the relationships that connections, which is where the really interesting bit of mathematics, Trump. So I. I'm wondering now, whether after an example, problem, we just need a little bit of fluency just a bit of kind of disconnected practice just a boost kids confidence to get them a little bit more familiar with the method and procedure so that when I would then get them a sequence of intelligently varied problems or an exercise like that they just got a little bit more left to attend to those interesting connections and relationships and so on and so forth. So that's something again that I'm wrestling with at the moment. But as Johnny's Johnny make the point where will it be switched off by that fluency that fluency practice? But for me short and sharp. It may be two questions. Maybe one question, maybe three questions. It may be a ten minute exercise and then the almost kind of qualifies, the kids primes the kids to then dive into the variation where students who need a bit more practice can still get it. And students who have got the prices are now ready for something more can get into those connections. Reflect expect check and all that side of things. So I'm wrestling with as well neck, Johnny. You can be tumors to think about it. And then finally. And using open ended tasks starting points that this is something the again in the past I would have done without question about a year ago, I would have said. No. So it would have been a complete swing there, because I want my students to have I, I don't I don't give them things at this. Absolutely. No chance that they can do. But I as Johnny says it may provide the purpose for them, it may get the nuts spark that engagement to say. Wow, I really wanna be able to solve this problem now. So help me help me with this teacher. Let's work together. A roller steering down the inquiry maths, Andrew Blair way of doing things. So again, is I like the idea of starting with the problem. I liked the narrative structure. I like the beginning the middle in the end the like the hawk nature of it. But does not not fine line. Isn't that don't want it to be that frustrating, exp? Appearance where kids alight. Well don't have flipping clue what I'm doing. And you end up kind of spoon feed in them in a way, Tron almost commit you and then that you haven't actually they've come up with it, and so on, and so forth. Whereas in those situations, I think it's best to kind of teach with the forms of a better phrase explicit instruction. And then give the students these tasks when they're better placed to get the most out to feel successful and so on, and so forth, because again, it goes back me Johnny at both agree on this. I got the feeling. Johnny thought I wasn't saying this, but I definitely was like successes motivating. I am a massive believer in that of the whole chapter man in my book. Success is the key driver motivation success. He's one of the key drivers ever chievements. I genuinely believe that. So that's what I've always got a balance for some classes, opening up things with an open ended problem will be exactly what they need. They thrive upon that. But for some kids confidences low his prior knowledge is low. Oh, I think I'm going to give that more teacher lad approach. And then I'm gonna bring the problem in later on through the learning episode at a point where that poised to get the most out of it. Wow. Okay. I think that's all I wanted to take away from that. But yeah, I adore this conversation. Please check out Johnny's wound the full Arizona's got risks and now he's got further rests on the links to all those and in the Shonno's, check out some Janis music as well. You can find it on YouTube. He's a talented guy and brilliant guys will. And so a couple of thank yous to wrap things up. Thank you, of course, to my desk. Johnny and forgive. His time for entertaining me forgiving me, plenty to think about the being so open, and honest is I'm so appreciated. Appreciative of that, when guests come on, and they usually bad soul, because it's I'm from a selfish perspective is so useful for me to learn, but also as I as I said in the. Well during this takeaway, I know the people listening for whom that was a really important point path conversations. Thank you, Johnny for that. And thank you to Pakistan's dot com for the lovely jazzy music. You've heard throughout the show and finally to you, my lovely loyal listeners for keeping on tune into these episodes. I really hope you find them as useful as I am. And if you wanna support the podcast, easiest ways to spread the word Tele friend recommend the episode. Maybe it's this one and you next thing you could do if you haven't already share a review of the podcast, ideally, go on will be good wherever yet, your podcast from, whether as I jeans, they are popping, or whatever really just helps build the audience. And if you wanna support the podcast by me, a mellow birds among his patron dot com forward slash Mr Batten, maths and, and I will return with some amazing guests coming up over the next few months, and hopefully the next few years as walks. I'm in an absolute ball doing these anyway. Take care of yourselves. Fire?

Johnny griffis Cambridge London Boston Matt John Conway Dylan William tilt Fouts Greg base Admiral Tom Kylie Glenn. Jani griffis Joni Massey Barton
Ginnifer Goodwin  ;)

Life is Short with Justin Long

1:44:23 hr | 1 year ago

Ginnifer Goodwin ;)

"In a number of years ago Christian and I went with another friend a couple of friends to Sciolino to Mexico one night. There's a beautiful full moon and there was all this incredible phosphorescent wipe out spirit just struck us and we took off our clothes. Listen we all ran out to go skinny dipping. We're all swimming naked in the water in the moonlight he was my memory of it was just magical. Water was lapping against my body. And my memory was looking over at you guys and seeing how much you're enjoying so happy. Meanwhile I was scared that the current was gonna take me away. It was strong current current so I was digging my feet so deeply into this very rocky pebble sand and I think I was also a little embarrassed that I was skinny dipping in my brother and my friend and I looked over. You guys were having the time of your life frolicking and I remember coming back and you're like Oh my God. That was invigorating reading and you were sort of limping up. And you're like he had his feet hurt. You know why does like my feet and listening to light on my feet and they were like profusely leading rubbing a Brillo pad on them a fun time to be a dream life. Good being You're listening to the life is short. I'm your host Justin. Long dreamed sweetheart did with me as always is my now clothed brother Christian thankfully clothed And your feet have healed field. They have I regret being scared of the current. It's running scared in general. I know well not to blame it all on her parents but it's not their fault. It is their fault but it's not their fault. I'm old enough that I should have gone over fears like that. Because you're also afraid of other things in the ocean right like you're afraid to go surfing Can Be can be moments. Not Afraid of sharks really. I'm not I'm afraid of like not being able to do it and and Getting in surfing. There's all this it's getting to know all that. Yeah Yeah all these rules you cut off. There's some of the first time I went my friend John Conway. He took me out to Malibu where it's competitive it's competitive and the waves are really good. And he's now you gotta decide. Yes I go into it like trial by fire as a great impression of John. I hope he's not listen if he is John. I know that's an impression you But yeah clip to surf surfers. When I I went out and a surfer's they were so nice until this incident and then I thought they were GonNa beat me up in the water I got genuinely nervous? They got really aggressive of. Ns Rome afraid of. I know but the Nice thing about that. I don't have enough confidence in myself to like I've just I'd somehow did it but the nice thing about cellulite. Is that the waves. There are a lot of beginners there because the good surfers don't likes the weights aren't big enough but it's a great place to learn. Yeah remember. I don't like that that kind of stuff. I don't like sports like skiing. I don't like I like ball sports. I do things I can. I like balls like hand eye balls. You know what I mean you know. I like basketball. I like baseball. Here's like Ping Pong a lot. Yeah that's I like those things too but the thing that I don't believe sports balls but the thing that I think you're not giving surfing credit for and you won't know this until you actually do. I've heard that anyone who serves says like the most amazing thing that they've ever done in their lives and I believe them. It's just it's like I've heard that about skydiving too. I have no desire as soon. This is all in cellular. As soon as I got caught my first wave and like stood up and stood up for a second second on the board. But I all I remember. You took two. I quit pretty quick but then all of the cliches that you hear from surfers just come pouring out of your mouth like doc. I think I started talking like you feel at one with the hidden. It was more like I felt like I was connected to Earth and like I was part of the rhythms of Mother Nature. And like it makes you feel so was just the best feeling that felt like flying but I was going to say. It's the some one of my favorite parts of the I think maybe my favorite element of surfing is like sitting just sitting out in the past the breakers just waiting for a wave to come just sitting in the water. I like sitting on a board in the water. I like sitting on a Kayak in the water. You would like it. You would like that very meditative and then like put it. You're saying it's the yeah -ticipant wave coming. It's sitting there. It is also just sitting there. It's both like fishing. It's like exactly you like the sitting in the waiting but it's also the anticipate. Oh Fish Rush. Yeah sure that beds comes into play but I think more important than that is the sitting in the waiting. I think that it's more of it. I mean. Of course it's more important much more time more of it to. That's when I felt that's when I had those moments of maybe not a rush but like you get when you're catching away but certainly a sense of calm type of calm. That just being submerged in the ocean in the quiet ocean of submerged but then the shark swimming around hoof. Why are we talking about fear of the water? Well we're talking about that trip because another friend of ours one of our fellow skinny dippers fact that's right what is our guest today Her name is Janie. Goodwin Jennifer and Janine I have worked together since we were both little little tots little actor. Let's Oh boy. Oh boy you met doing the show Ed yes it was a show on. NBC about a Bowling Alley Lawyer It lasted four seasons but not many people. People watched it though. It had a very loyal following so janine. I did that show for a couple years and then years later we made a movie called. He's just not that into you Where we played a couple we have similar amick that we do in on the TV show? We did And we eventually spoiler alert get together in the so. We played kind of a couple and I play a character who was always giving her love advice. She's doesn't know how to navigate these relationship waters. So that's how we know each other and That's why we ended ended up in Cya leader together on that trip we were crashing. You talk about this and we were crashing crushing One of her friends was getting married. Married forget all the way to remember the bloody feet I got a shelter. Space craft was wearing first attempt. I growing facial hair. I've never been more unattractive. I think was in Mexico. Well you were also execute me was also you have you know you're sweating more than I would say the enormous and And your beer didn't help the sweating and you just just eating shellfish and you realize you were. Sometimes they got a rash Ashwan. I eat from a selfish and he was funny about that that night. And you're talking about you. Were wearing a shirt that said Mr Messy and it was there. Were these these characters that were like Mr Clean Mr needs and Mr Angry and all these different adjectives The characters I don't if people remember this or from describing right but years was Mr Mum was just like a messy little character on your shirt and you looked so unkempt and Farrell and you had this blotchy like shellfish Cheryl. Yeah that's kind of a nice way and that night there was this woman from the wedding party who not not slightly older woman who took a real shine to. You liked me a lot. Yeah like a lot and Christian but she liked me so much. I was a single man boy and you did not like but I didn't really like I was just intimidated. Because she was very aggressive with me she was all kind of get grab you with me and she was come on. Let's go like and you wanted to give you a alone. I've never been shaming. You very mean to. You should come up to Michigan. Your brothers are real pussy. Yeah that wouldn't make out the. That's how I ended up taking away from this party because I didn't know how to say not. I see her looking for you and your escape from his party. I escaped it from her clutches and cut to like an hour and a half two hours later in the night. We were driving one of those little carts who's very interesting so there weren't street lights and stuff so everything was very illuminated just by our car's headlights and as we approach we saw these two the people we saw a woman standing up we were like in the jungle. Yeah so woman standing up Clothed but with her dress kind of lifted up a little bit and then the closer. We got more clear became. We saw a an anonymous man on his knees underneath her yet. Ed doing stuff and could it sure is odd and happened so it wasn't that long before she. I was looking for you and you know had really and you were just not that Inter segue into you or she So Jimi Goodwin is our guest today and if you don't know her if you haven't seen ed or he's just something she's a lot she's been a lot of things she's been in love of wildcard. Walk the line the line. Walk Harder Taylor line issues in Zootopia Topi a- As everyone everyone remembers win a date with Tad Hamilton gene. Were really great friends. We still are but we haven't seen each other and so I should say she's on a show on on. CBS All access called why women kill so. Check that out and stick around for Justin catching up because of twenty years ears because I am just that into God and she is my exception and all the lines from that movie my friend. My Pal My old colleague Gene Goodman Jennifer life being drain sweetheart mhm bed bath and beyond helps couples register for everything from essentials to experiences and everything in between helpful tools and amazing perks make simple seamless and rewarding they've a huge assortment of products and re registry must have like a what must you have. You must must have a kitchenaid stand mixer that goes without saying I come. I would also insist on space saving nonstick cookware or stick cookware. Depending on how much you like like the purse and finally you can contribute to the honeymoon. That on. That's really cool. You can buy them a trip. You can register whenever wherever either in store with their registry three experts or on the go with the APP online. So if you go in store you can use their handy APP scanner to manage your registry and with their thank you manager. You can track brackets and streamline the task of sending thank you notes which that is such a good idea that you have always had a hard time streamlining your thank you you know. I don't remember that that the last thing you know what I wrote that sad had muscle. Listen to this Perth. What's this twenty percent off the remaining gifts on your registry creator register at bed bath and beyond dot com slash registered? Here's the best part if your relationship. Asian ship doesn't work out all the stuff and go through this whole process again and keep the thank you notes arrays. The names bats goals. Hello meet again. I've been thinking through all of the stories on the things that we've been there. Nineteen years and things. You've probably even forgotten. Definitely forgot is a terrible memory. This glad you're running into people because they can compile these that we need to reconnect. Also my husband here is a is such a fan and also loves your podcast. tweet reconnecting keep better touch so I can hang out with Justin Sherman. He's pays pretty damn charming. We've known first of all nineteen years. We kind of like you were already in the Biz. I I was already quite a big Dick as I asked you a lot of questions. Yeah that's right but like barely didn't know what to do with my first job besides screaming on law and order episode. That's right you're right Outta be you. Yeah and you were. Everything was so new. You're so excited. And like yes and I was excited. Remember rose colored glasses. Do you remember when you picked me up on the side of the road by the way in the BERKSHIRES. When I do you remember this I was like? I'm so glad I was on this jumping jumping away ahead for but I was just thinking about all the things we've been through together and how you are like also such a testament to you. You are like the show up friend. Oh that's always been the show up front including like crashing that wedding in Mexico that time to remember that but there was also. Do you remember. Okay I was just I mean I was just out of college and you called me. I was crying and I was on the side of the road in the BERKSHIRES. Okuda vaguely like what's wrong. I mean I I must have. I'm sure this was still in the like I was still on Ed Point. Maybe but anyways I was crying because I had been a strange social situation Asian that I needed to get out of and so I didn't know what to do because I was on foot and we did have cell phones. Obviously but we didn't have any other means of like you the Google anything. I was on one line with my mother who was looking up train schedules to help. Get me out of pictures and you happen to call a line and it said mom hold hold on justice on the other line and I'll just come get you and I was like what do you mean you. Can you kill like four hours and I'll just come you're in trouble with Massachusetts countryside. Where you are? We were in Florida town and like I will come Pick WanNa say you knew people at the Williamstown theater festival out. People play there a couple of years. Maybe I just want an excuse. I'm trying to get myself a reason for not to be as selfless as it was. Because that's some I mean I'm like I'm thinking back to that age medium. I'm proud of him. I'm glad you went back clicked over with my mother and I was like just. I'm fine did you do easier to play up. There I did was planted. The corn is green. Yeah two thousand four hundred five sometime. Mm Time everything to me is in terms of how long my hair has been those. Were my long hair days so it was like more than twelve years ago. It was originally on the show. You a very. She had like Pixie Haircut. Short here early. How my guy I was like all frown but it was also exciting to take somebody to be have somebody to take everything had been so new for me that point that I now got to have a little buddy who was kind of let it go? Let me show you. The he did not distance by everything the VIR planning. But you had a very clear idea of what you want it to me. It was like I'll do whatever you know. I'm I'm excited to have to be in any movies and stuff but I think I was in that about you that you had a clear without sounding like Dushi or Shitty. I won't do certain things but you know you just had a good idea of what you wanted. Sir Ed was. We had smaller roles on that. Show Really Watch the people then people did but it was so. Stop me about though I get. It occasionally not always makes me really like nostalgic. And what was your impression when you first got that. Show what what were you thinking right out of college. Were you like. Oh we're off to the races and this is thinking. Thank God I can pay my rent. I was sharing a actual bed head with a college classmate because we couldn't fit more than one bed in the space God in I mean it was somewhere in Queens. I don't even remember where at this point. So the fact that I could pay rent wilmer girls and doing something that I was obsessed with but I do remember thinking that because I was right out of theater school that must have been fresher and more precise and my work was probably less exhausted and I went back and watched my first episode years and years and years and years later and notice that I was looking at the floor the entire time because I was scared I I would like look in the camera. Oh that's probably looking for mark. Oh Yeah I catch myself looking for marks. All the they put down their little pieces of tape on the ground for actress to stop it which I rarely do with an inconsistency overstepping. I've recently saw Ed to contextualize for the majority of you. Who Haven't seen it was a show about? It actually shows all the time. I heard this show any other Canadians likely. which makes me like the Canadian even more than But Ed was a bowl. He was a lawyer. Moves back to a small town of Stuck Ville opens up a bowling alley blah blah. You know that old chestnut and engineering. I played and he has a crush. He had a crush on a woman who's now his teach. It is now a teacher. Teacher played by Julie Bowen of modern modern familiar fame and in Virginia students in her school so the first season I was on and then Jimmy came in the second season. I think to become a regular snyder. Diane Snyder Diane Diane Star started as psycho. What's the dynamic like? Oh it's kind of like some kind of wonderful yes you know what's actually think the reference we think it what you yeah. Yeah that's right your character directly reference that movie but So it was kind of a back enclosed little love triangle with their friends. Michael played by Margaret Dri. Tom Kevin I ran into the Madison. Weirdly runs into Tom and he's in Canada anyway. We'll we'll Thompson Vancouver's yes flash through your husband's on show now what he's on manifest which which is NBC so yes about the plane advantages for five years. Yes so we yeah. We made a deal that I would never or leave home here best. We signed some paperwork when you decide to love her for the rest of your life by the way I was. I didn't WanNa get married which I will tell that story. Okay that But we made a deal which go back to that but we did make a deal that I I feel very strongly. He both very strongly that someone has to be home with children. The children are not. I was when I had kids that they were gonNA come along for the ride and then I had them and I was like Oh fuck years ride interesting like like I am now when service of you and so not a part of my little entourage. I'm on your tire trauma and so I stayed home with the kids because I can't I can't be away And my husband is I mean. He is free as far as I am concerned to do. Whatever he wants? Anywhere in the world he comes back and visits a lot very liberal. Not The worst situation we should like. I feel like more than some other. We've been together for almost a decade and I feel like we still. It's like dating when he comes home in that like we miss each other there and we're not like we don't get annoyed other bottled up in the same environment. Raising children is really traumatized. Said like that's that's cool. Yeah I do that in like six months a year. He comes home and he's full on data. So you plan your work. So then you'll catch jobs around that and I also will not leave for any job for more than an extremely short period of time so to your shooting once upon a time that was in Vancouver yes and we left after the sixth season because of the because because we were just we were wiped and we need to put the kids in school and also like six years. You must have been in terms of like the character to have sets you know. We actually did twenty three episodes most if those years. God were you still into the show by the end. I mean into the work I was attached to. Yeah Yeah I could have done a better job there at the end I mean I had both babies on the show so I went through my pregnancy. I I worked up until I was five. Weeks pre delivery only child God went home for hiatus and then with back acting by five weeks postpartum. And you're playing a snow snow white hair so snow as pregnant every little dwarf again and again anyone never stopped having babies with restore. You were going to tell you what was I gonNa tell about getting married. Oh yes so I had this whole thing about how. Oh my husband. Because he's Prince charming was last was all that he really is. He was passionate national about getting married and I felt strongly that marriage marriage didn't like as legality. Didn't make sense to me like it didn't mean anything to music. Why can't we just be together forever? Promises like it's an outdated you know Formality and in and he said to Fi- proposed you would say no and I was just flips like let's just put till later because I'm not projecting you by saying I don't so anyways it was complicated but all of the sudden so we did plan to have babies and we lived together and I was very very very pregnant and one day it was like a light switch and I was like I want your Our Name. He's like I wish I hadn't brought that really open the floodgates so he proposed super pregnant and then we got married when I was eight months pregnant with our first literally barefoot. I wonder I wonder how much of that had to do with your own family which which was fractured So you probably get playing you know. I wonder I just wonder how much of that was like. I don't want to replicate that. There was not an example except for maybe set by my grandparents but there wasn't there wasn't like a more immediate example for me too. How old were they divorced? I was a teenager teenager so I also felt like I mean I was engaged as you know prior to meeting my now husband husband talking to a friend of mine introduced the leading I actually crashing in Mexico right right. We we found each other at. How did we get to be in Mexico at that time? which is also the best trip? Felt photos like you know because we had to actually take we have actual cameras and actual photos back in those days. I'll find them. You called me. I think I was doing like Mona Lisa. Smile or something. And you got tickets to a premier in. You called me if we were these t shirts with the name of Said Jim on the t shirts colored carpet give free memberships and we went in. I chickened out on the carpet and zipped up my jacket. That's right get the membership or sure. Did I got it got Karaj and was one of those like Baseball Styling Jersey style so in you can keep the shirt pictures out there somewhere and we went to that after party and I met by now best friend Dory at that after which we had nothing to do with the other way you got a gym membership and I'm very happy for you. Cut Too late ten years later I was at a bar with Dory. She was going to reporting in Mexico. We were meeting the groom at the Bar and He looked at me and he said someone just fell out. And everything's prepaid. Do you just want to hop on a plane tomorrow morning and come to the wedding and I said yes and then you you called me and I was in Mexico and I was him a wedding in Mexico. You WanNa come hang up bring Christian and this friend of mine and Y'all showed up that's right that's made it like a Mexican vacation so oh funding and you met your fiancee. The point being when that relationship fell apart I felt like marriage obviously is not like like this is not going to be my right. I didn't know that you guys have broken up when I ran into next. Remember this is fair at the Roosevelt. I thought you were joking. I was like you didn't tell anybody nobody. We kept it really just because things like being leaked to get it but you you had a wedding date and was like I was like Except for the wedding. I remember that data so you were like we're removing the day. There's been a conflict and then that person went on to write a movie that was kind of based about this and I'm actually really proud of them. Yeah somebody's GonNa buy it so sure. Joey Kern is is my friend and he wrote a movie called Big Bear. It's really good. That's amazing. Happy genuinely somebody called me to tell me and to like have me sit down and be ready for it right and but my truly truly like my knee jerk overwhelming reactions like that is fucking awesome. I remember Josh was like he's claiming and I showed him the trailer he was like he's like it was playing him. Yeah published a hunk. How's your sister? She still good yes she has now. She's directing animation way she never stops. She's like four hundred jobs a kid and a husband and she's met her husband because they've been together since like I've known yes so it was the two of you grown up. What you guys are very different? People two very different. Yeah just superficially when you first meet much. You're very gregarious and outgoing and And you take up a room you know and people and not to see your sister's not great but she a bit more reserved artist. She's an artist Were you look could his kids. Was that your dynamic. I sure our parents really purposely pushed us to Towards different fields. Felt like we like you know when I wanted to give up piano when I was like five instead of making me stick with it. My mother was a great. Because your sister loves it. want you to have we want you to shine in your own way and do your thing must have been very apparently was a nightmare of so cautious like right. I mean I found I found programs for plays that I apparently wrote directed waited and played every role in and I would make my family. Sit and watch me for. My Mom said there was once they had like a four hour performance which I do questions with the recipe for hours. But it just doesn't seem possible you were doing your genial neil longest gibberish started. Be Like using come on and say one line at the end And we've got a great because she did and she very well. She's done that in your own movies. We'll hilarious. She has also appeared in everything. Ever done he's just just not into you. This shot not entire film. It's a close up of her face laughing at a party this become it's become competitive among my Ada's Adi's where they are going to put her. Project really seminal and then even and then also pride and joy for me was she got me my first voiceover job which was on robot chicken for it. She was animating and then I was able to get her a speaking role in Zootopia. Call and give her that visuals from that commander. One line good for you. I forgot about Zootopia owner of that movie playing this very like this rabbit. Who is kind of perfect? Perfect get did you have to. But it was even at a faster pace than you're used to talking. I'm sure I yeah I mean I think it's probably my more natural just makes me slow down all the time. What's interesting is so I was cast in? You know what so I was part of that the the original like read through process of frozen like four hundred thousand years ago our art and I did not get the call to keep going so I was then delighted that I got the the call that I was instead going to be doing utopia and it. This was two thousand thirteen. I got the call so originally. The story was about Nick while the Fox and I was just going to be this sidekick by by Jason Bateman treatment of course yeah and I was going to be the sidekick and recorded it for a couple of years and then it was rewritten again but thought God completely rewritten in the original version. I also showed up like with like a real like with a voice. It's like I was making very strong. Choices humored me for a very brief period of time and they were like so curious thing we hired you remember is does she. I mean I think I was trying to sound like holly hunter basically and they were like we would have called Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter very very solid. And we don't really need you to do bad versus you are a version of how I mean. That's the best compliment. You are Holly Hunter Gotcha. That's huge judgment. I love how he doesn't. I did a similar thing in this movie tale of pro which surprising that I got fired from where I was pitching my voice up because I was playing a little mouse assigned Lima's and Gary Ross dress she was like Just just just saving Mashburn hired like a preview. bessant isn't exactly exactly Had a similar thing showman teller. I remember years ago after we then split Williamstown show one in a table. Read Workshop of this play. And he I remember him describing the play as like a re-imagined a musical reimagining update of wizard of Oz. And I was like. That's never going to work wicked. I was like he wanted me to read. I don't know if I would've actually he would have liked me enough to do the Broadway version but I said no to like a Moron got the things I've said not repeatedly really. Oh no no. I had the year that I got my now manager was I was sitting at the Golden Globes and It was a year when three roles I had tasked on were nominated. Oh here's the thing Obviously would not have been nominated because I didn't have the vision. I didn't see that these roles had in them. What they did not like I would have presented the it wasn't guaranteed three and one year and those things do make a difference because people that have those nominations it does open doors so I I was sitting at the Golden Globes and looking at the back of my now managers head and I was like call that guy tomorrow because I don't make good choices so this was around the time you're on big lovin necessarily and that's why I was at the golden must've got nominated all the time we did? Okay and Bill Paxton. I remember you asked me to him. And I was so wherever we We went to some some big love party and gambling theme. I remember it was circus. Theme and That's where you introduced me to bill. And he was. How fucking fucking cool? He was so I was so happy that he was like you had said he was nice. And whatever but you never know until you meet. Nobody's like better than his character. His passing actually affected me in a really big way that I would never have expected. He was the first person in my life that I've ever lost at all subsequently after he passed then quickly had to grandparents passed so it was a big year but when he passed I you did a lot of reexamining because his children With him I was catching up at the some of the services. Honoring Him I'm his children. Were talking about their father's dedication to all people in like the performing arts in terms of if you were sitting in uh-huh trailer and you mention and he heard you mentioned that like a friend of yours was a writer he would like Holler down and be like we should give me that script and I'll see if I can pass. It belong to somebody who can who can help to facilitate. Yes Nick. Anyone in what we do and he believed that if you got if you were like bitten by the acting bug that you were the luckiest human alive and so he felt like because you were then of of like our try. Altogether in our job is to help each other through it because there are enough pieces of the pie to go around so if only we would would be a better community to each other. was that something that you needed to hear your ask but I didn't. It didn't affect me until he passed and I was thinking so much about what he had represented to me the lessons that he had taught me and I realized that for instance with my own children that I have such a F- you know. Of course like fear of there being hurt at any point in their lives that Josh and I had decided right off the bat like we must keep them from acting. Like how can we protect them. Like how can we wrap them in. Like the the bubble wrap of do not go into this business because of the rejection and the bad behavior and we both discussed that there is something about thou raising them just to be brave and resilient and give them the tools there's five we'd be better parents by doing that and the world turn would be better because you are now affecting another generation nation. Who Will the effect and you know and it will be passed down I I? I've been thinking about this a lot because on the show I ask people about like well. What do you want your legacy to be? Most people don't you you know it's not necessarily important to be or at least they say it's not to be remembered or to be you know what I mean. You're you're dead. People have expressed versions of that. But Kristen Bell was here a couple days ago not to bring a speaking poor salts in the room but she had said that that she just wants to leave the world a better place. That's her aspiration. I and and what you just said about Bill Paxton reminding me of it because he's imparted. This this mindset this very like radical way of seeing our business and people in our business and our immediate world and you're now he's giving you tools is to pass on down to your kids and it's having this cumulative effect he's touching all these peace talks and so the net effect is to make he. He made the world a better place than his thing is sort of about we can let fear dictate everything and therefore we can like Francis and our business like all climbing climbing over each other and ambition like you know get to the top and can be player haters and also make our world toxic like an intimate lake totally together on a set world. We want to be played participators. Yes I'm good sweetheart do If you listen to the show maybe it's your first time you know that we are really into this product. We're actually in this product as we speak. How do you know I am why it's are you? Of course I I'll tell you I know because when you're wearing and your sexy underwear you have a spring in your step. I feel a million times better and a certain part of my body feels a gazillion times. Better you know what we don't talk enough about obviously makes you feel great. And if you've heard this like we feel like we're just testicles sorry layman if there are any like kids listening they don't know about tests they call them balls calls. Why did we not nerds now? Remember Nardone Ettelaat four yards that are in this room right now. Mark Mark remarkably comfortable. Why my nods? Because I'm not wearing my being cradled so delicately by saks underwear and ballpark pouch. Tm that is holding our mail stuff in one delicate play. Well you know that's their new motto. Nobody cradles sacks cradles internal Mesh panels. Keep everything in place also the super soft moisture wyking fabric. I didn't love them anymore. We've worked with SAX on a great limited time deal for you right now. You can save ten percent and get free shipping free shipping and get free shipping living on a pair of sacks by going to sack underwear dot com slash long. That's S. A. X. X. UNDERWEAR DOT com slash long that sacks with two X.'s Zack's acts on word dot com slash long joy again John Edwin. You've got Mona Lisa Smile. That was huge and that was my first movie. Well selfishly was huge for me because you as my friend. We're going to be working with Kirsten Donald Everything. I had such a crush on her and I was like I kept England really co-stars. Oh really eh several. Yeah Oh here we go all the way. What are you working on now? I don't WanNa know professionally just uh-huh yeah no no more. Hopefully we start doing and we start like start like nobody. I'd like to know we've all not maybe we haven't all dentist a lot of us have done. The whole were were half people. And I've been having these moments on set and I don't say this to be self righteous but I've been having these moments onset since I've tried to be a little more open where I'm standing opposite. Sometimes someone I have never met before. Like don't know their last names don't know where they're from nothing. But we're standing on like opposite each other on camera going to some like really crazy emotional placing licensed rusty. Yeah it's a real intimate requires a ton of trust and I think that's why these relationships have for me for me. You know because because it's your energy so then they're charming and they're funny and they're all the often very good looking. I buried the lead kidding Kamar workers and you speaking of the. You're working with Alexander. Dario yes on. It's called. Why yeah and it's really bloody? There's a it's a horror gratuitous it all. It's it's brilliant. It's my favorite thing. He's ever done also madly madly madly madly in love with our Cherry Cherry before. No so we had met because he used to work out of Walt Disney's personal. Aw Office sneaking out of that no keep his office in the file and I was I the news. I was trying to do things to impress my now husband so like I would do things like you know. Take him to an art exhibit. And I call it my friend and who was like the artists and be like Show up like no I was disgusting And I was like hey. Do you WanNa go to 'cause. I knew that like we could do this. Crazy easy toward the Disneyland Disneyland. And do that all the time with your sister I remember we go to Disney together. You are really think we do Harry Potter. You're obsessed oh so we. I'm in the Harry Potter fan magazine. Apparently there's some fan magazine and I'm like the Fan your head. Just what do they call Harry Potter fans and Potter heads. What how you know? I've never right now do it. How do you have your Peter? Okay wait can I Harry Potter tests. Can you do the phone. It's like the rolling like her. She has like the her the official the last quiz from just kidding rallying. Actually it's called something else now but it used to be potter more. I wouldn't get any of them right though. I never just right. It's about personality. Joe Okay. Yeah let's values oriented value right now. I mean even my kids have done this by the way and they're three Rian five so you can handle this. How do you admit five year old to get very serious? You're going to do me and I'll do you okay. Well I've already done it. In fact I was so upset originally originally about the House that I was assigned. Yeah like the Hogwarts House that I was assigned because it's not what I thought I was that I then created. I created three different email addresses and kept going in and taking it again which then actually proved that I was in the House that find behavioral Alexa. Little five hundred percent trait of the house members. Okay so if you have any power which would you choose ready. Oh it's one of our questions. The power to read minds the power to change the past the power of invisibility the power to speak to animals. The power of superhuman in strength power to change your appearance at will the appearance thing would freak on to play around with that but It would help an audition God clean. Let's Holly Hunter Gary Oldman's I I already the I would say maybe invisibility Nice. It's the kind of instrument most that most please as your ear. Is the piano. The Drum Violin the trumpet. I the only only reason I'm hesitating I I. I think it's the piano but But my my older brother used to play so incessantly in like he would annoy me so so much by like overplaying the piano. Now you've ruined the beautiful but I had. My parents made me take lessons when I was a kid and I hated going mm-hmm now. Do you wish that you could swim. Making my eldest continue violin. Mike you will regret the slater you have to trust me. I'll say violin. No sorry piano piano okay. Which nightmare would most frighten you? Standing on top is something very high and realizing suddenly there are no hand or foothold nor any barrier to stop you falling being forced to speak in such a silly voice that hardly anyone can understand you and everyone laughs at you you. I think you'd love that your Lover Waking Waking Up to find that neither your friends nor your family have any idea who you are or an eye at the keyhole of the dark windowless room in which you are locked genie. That's so weird. I used to have one of the few reoccurring nightmares for my youth. That I can remember is. Is that one that you mentioned you wake up. I would come downstairs to the dining room table. We'd Gr- still. We still live in that. They still live in the same house but the house. Thanks giving come on. Yeah but I come down to that table that you can visualize and I stand there in a very casually very nonchalantly they go. who were you schilling? Wake up in. Oh just cold sweats. I've had the same dream not about not at Your House with your family. Visa would be that weird. I wonder that makes me wonder. If that's like an actor thing I wondered losing losing it would i. I would say that only because I have direct revenue heizer with no thank. You be scary. But let's say that one given the choice. Would you rather invent oppostion that would guarantees pay patient given the choice. Which one do you want? Would you rather invent a potion that would guarantee not you. Glory Love Power or wisdom. Love between love unwisdom. Sure would be great too. Okay a troll has either troll has gone Berserk and the headmaster study at hogwarts. It's about to smash crush rush and tear several irreplaceable items and treasures. In which order would you rescue these objects from the trolls club if you could a nearly perfect. QR You are for dragon pox. Oh they changed how they do. This okay growing makes complicated because I actually know the quiz well enough that I'm going to be able to tell you what everything is because they don't have if you're listening there is a glit- no where's the world. We have a win. You do air this. There's there's a glitch. I'm listening wrote Dot Com. But when you are on the troll question you did not reveal the choices but I know the quiz what's pictured like one hug partner all of the millions. Okay so Charles. Companies are going to study at hogwarts. He's going to destroy everything. There are three objects objects and you need to rescue them or one of them's a nearly perfect shore for dragon pox. pucks one is the Student history like student records ochre and one of them has something to do. Oh this would be google of someone wants to Google it but it has something to do with like Merlin's something that was written in a in a magical language maybe it was like Shoots but see. I'm not personally invested in with your the whole thing is. What would you value that? There is a cure for a contagious disease. Yup Three records sure or something mysterious magical. What would you okay? So where would you put the nearly perfect cure for at a contagious disease. Oh God I would save the history records just so we don't repeat the Peterson. Yeah I think history's really valuable. And then what's the second and then the second thing I'm unclear about the miracle of. Yeah Yeah so then I would say that the disease Aziz I I yeah okay so that okay student records. I'm going to give number WYAN which gives. Oh yes. I was ready to mistreat handwritten book. Full of strange runes number three. Okay okay if you were attending hogwarts which would you choose to take with you on the suspend do you want cats toads or Al Cats toads are. Okay okay well in our would probably be pretty difficult to to have as beautiful world cellular to their cats. I'm not into I I You know mine would be Probably toed cats. But let's say I'm not a toad cat our right so we're GONNA start to my nephew's refuse GonNa hate that. You're not you need to look you have to choose one you WanNa Harlequin the dragon towed commented natterjacks towed food or Harlington. Jack Okay Jack Okay white or black back. The sorting hat is ready to make a decision. Are you ready. You are your path so as my son all of for Hugo elect paths. What's what does it mean? I mean I would say well. It says here that you value that you value dedication patience and loyalty. Aw I do yeah. There's like different qualities that to me. It's more about what the people in those houses value more than. It's about how you would describe. I realized one of the things that I I value so much more now than I did before is is that is loyalty and trust and forgiveness. All that you're just like my John over over some great what's your other Hugo Griffin to arcus he's a my rule breaker it and my husband's Griffin and I'm a raven cloth Bernardi ones were the ones who create three different email accounts to prove that we the accuracy funnier raving griffin door. But I just I can't not follow rules your husband is. He's a griffin door. Ed had you classically been attracted to Griffin doors. Yeah I like the rule breaker so well yeah. Why did you decide? Decide to go to be you from Memphis. I wanted a theater program that did not force me to do participate musicals but I thought you could voice. You can sing I I mean I have found that I can only handle singing if I'm animated which I've done. We did do a musical episode once upon a time and I begged them not to you write meaning music because I'm terrified of singing in front of people can't Kariuki Fun of people. I thought we didn't have them. We've been I've gone. They don't want to get up and do it. I would group surprised. I don't WanNa be ice. It's it's too. There's something to like Ron. I've got your afraid you'll see that. Yeah my my dad was a professional musician my entire childhood yet so I think it's just it scares me to death my sister's incredible the musician And I think I've got a lot of insecurity there. So when did the episode. They actually very generously. I showed up at the studio. Of course we're like lip synching on the actual show show So when I had to go into my my reporting session to pre record They actually in the sound booth. They built me like a cave of the foam blocks. That I couldn't see anyone. No one could see me so I was blocked from the glass so myself into thinking I was alone. Weird left me a lot of time to relax. Wow so I don't but but weirdly I've done a couple of of I've Sung for a couple of Disney projects and obviously not frozen and passed in whatever ended enough happening with our movie. Anyway Heyman went but So so when I'm animated waited for some weird reason I'm okay As in win I'm going to be animated when me and my face. Oh that's interesting a lot braver in the booth. I that right and I don't mean this in a judgment way I thank you for sharing them. Because it's I'm Surpri- just surprises me though because you are. You don't seem like you have any shyness about any other aspect aspect of performance. I'm surprised in other ways. Scam also being like the things that you've done. The parts she played have been you really commit to things and you put yourself other. But maybe that's where the anxiety comes or you don't feel comfortable enough snow wise you know and well. Here's the thing you you know to sing. Well you physically have to be relaxed. Something about talking to me like you can't hardly tense up your diaphragm and sing well. So the first thing that happens is my diaphragm tenses up. Oh Yeah like I used to cry is when I was in theater school I did have to take a class called singing factor so it was mandatory. I mean I did not have to participate. ESPN musicals but I had to take this one class. Stand up there absolutely cry. Oh my God. I'm surprised Chris Klein ever give you any singing Sorry history is all. I believe I have only good things to say about I. May I like I could axes exes. I have good access choices that I made if they led me to this point. So you're the thing that you which are the superpower that you what would be it wouldn't be changing using the past. No what would it be better. Mother held the League. That's not one of the super super human strength would be Kinda cool. Aw I feel like I guess. I don't really care about superhuman strength that we're talking to animals animals. I mean not if that was like my one thing just to be like you have dogs or cat you have. I mean now that I clean up human see if I can't clean up anything else your husband exactly. Yeah fish one first. Yes when we blew. Well he's he is three fish in one in that we. We picked the fish that I went to Costanza brought the Santa brought the fish and I went to the fish. The store and I said it was an actual fish store. I'm not just saying that. It's a fish really big loosely especially have said what is hardest to kill and most easy to replace without my children noticing and they said a blue young male Beta and I and I said you'll always have them in stock and they say you will always have what's going to be so you keep replacing actually swimming. Let me three. Make sure that we have the same swimming that we've always had been alive for twenty five years. Whatever he goes belly up? We like push a plant in front of his fishbowl. Someone someone takes the kids somewhere to like the Parkin someone else in the fish store and brings back. I'm not ready for these lessons. Because here's the thing we're already addressing dressing like my grandparents passing because my oldest is old is old enough to remember Oliver's five and he's old enough to five and a half he would make sure. I said helpful post and the handlebars and he is. He remembers I have a grandmother ANA grandfather in two separate sides of the family pass in the past couple of years and he remembers them in. He's confused just about. They're not now being people visit when we go to Memphis and what has blown. My mind was at a point because I. I'm like a religious mass as in. I don't land anywhere at this point. We organized religions. Really interesting you you who had you were raised Jewish and Christian both about Mitzvah and yeah that yeah no I I. It was actually when I started losing people that I like actually turned like physics as opposed to religion. I needed to. Where are they when? Where did my grandmother go? That was always very difficult for me. It is I mean it's still really is impossible to wrap our brains around and and I remember being struck by moments in movies that were that depicted death like La Bamba. Remember the movie La Bamba where he would have that the fact that this guy is talented guy died so young suddenly so suddenly I I was really struck me and stand by me. There's a great scene at the end. We're River Phoenix's character. Chris Chambers is walking away and that Gray Richard Dreyfuss narration and and he's he just says matter of factly what happened that he was he got in a fight years later and the Image River Phoenix disappears. I remember being so struck by by the absurdity the heaviness of yes because there's just a moment and they're gone and like I I slept in my. They were so great L. my their presence in the world so so we had to have gone somewhere which there is and I'll send it to you after there's this incredible thing about you. Want a physicist sisters speak at your funeral affected me wait hold on well. I'm not advocating. That you listen to the show but the Neil degrasse Tyson was on so if you're gonNA listen to an episode listen into that one because he He talks about death in a really physical and beautiful way the way he processed zone father staff is really inspiring here. I think this is it and yes do I will listen to it And the reason why now right and on this episode According to listen to another episode number the reason I bring this up is because of swimming blue because my son he asked what happens when we die is fascinated by this and the only thing could come up with in the moment as a civil granny wanted to be part of everything again so she was she was almost one hundred and two she was hired and she just wanted to be part of you know the rainbows again and again and she wanted to be part of you know so. She's just all around us now all the time and he thought about it for free to the Super Bowl uh-huh and he said so. Can we become anything when we die and it was able. Yeah because you become part of everything I would like to take a slide down into tiger that I was like we're going to run with this for your entire childhood. This is what happens after death a slide down into a tiger also told me recently that he thinks God because he's asked me about God and I say thank God is like this this universal love feeling. It makes you feel. I swear to God five-year-old's at this because I was like it makes you feel like giggly it. You know it makes it. It moved to tears at times and he goes. He is God like surprises. And I said Yeah and he goes. I wonder if God is just a bunch of ears. You need to be religious leader but that's also a little scary. If God is I think people do think of God as being just a bunch of years that is you know. Wow this is who has no like like religious education anyway. So there's nothing influencing his state and this is the one that initially got swimming blue. Who which which swimming blue was your favorite numbers? Ha Ha I'm going to read this to you So it's called. It's by Aaron Freeman and you want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy so they will understand that. Your energy has not died. You you want the physicists to remind your sobbing mother that all your energy every vibration every. BTU OF HEAT wave of every particle. That was her beloved child remains with her. You're in this world. You want the physicists to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos you gave as good as you got at one point you'd hoped the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walked. You're brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face all all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile by the touch of your hair. Hundreds of trillions of particles have raced off like children their their ways forever changed by you and the physicists will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat there may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here still part of all that we are even as we mourn and continue the heat of our own lives. And you'll want the physicists to explain to those who love you that they need not have faith indeed they should not have face let them know that they can measure that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate verifiable inconsistent across space and time mm-hmm. You can help. Your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the scientists sound and they'll be comforted to know your energy still around according to the law of Conservation of energy. Not a bit of you as gone. You're just less orderly. Oh man it's good to see you. Gosh less orderly. Oh that's incredible right injuries sweetheart Though though again Burmese again why the two who religions why both Jewish and it was just that the intermarried uh-huh yeah we're still alive and well in each family okay and so it was more about the culture the traditions belief set now. I wanted a religious education because I was always looking for the answers. My son is looking for I. Just don't no that I'm going to be able to. I don't know that I will steer him to the same places to find those answers to figure out because I do think that I mean they need something. We all need structure now. Yeah Yeah I have a hard time with imposing any sort of rigid belief system on kids because like I know I know it did good. I know there was good that came with but I know there was damage. Damage that it caused and shame and guilt and it's almost like I want to figure out like what is what are my children's moral. Compasses and try to lake. Help them navigate their lives by trusting their guts. Yeah Yeah Yeah and it's still a gut you wanted them to ever trust. There's a lot of probiotics. I don't think there's no CPAP so I think we're GONNA be okay. Good I want them to. Yeah it's more than I'm like. How do I figure out how to give them the right life skills to like be resilient an independent trust themselves selves? Forgive themselves that hard. That's hard that's hard to be a lot easier to be like this is what's right. I get the appeal. That's why religion is really appealing. Because it's someone did all that work that I think about like how we started out together and how we were both on our own little acting journeys in these Chris. That's why it was nice to have a friend in who kind of going along with it at the same time second with each other and and then it was great when we ended up We played these nerdy school friends and then went off and did other jobs jobs and then met up again like we did. He's into a memory filming that movie. That was the greatest I loved it. I loved it and we. We played slightly cooler character. Still respite can go cast cool But but I liked our parts. We had a good A similar kind of art that we did on as you know but I whoa I remember telling that story than we depressed together. which was so fun? We went to Australia and I saw the time. Yeah and I said to somebody I was like why. Why aren't you going? I said to somebody else in the cast. Like why aren't why isn't scarlet going in Bubba. And they really didn't want to start by still like going on our free trip. We'll go do you remember. Do you remember. I mean I'm sure you remember because also it had like reproduced. The story then had hilarious repercussions. which were that? You've you told this story on a talk show and then it affected my real life. Romantic life do you remember. We were sitting in. We were sitting in a bar in Hollywood talking about a guy that I was after who will remain nameless and I was not hearing back from them and and threatened someone patron came in the restaurant and said something like you guys doing a scene from us and then we both kind of realized God. Listen this guy's not calling you back says Oh that could be dialect. Then what ended up having the reason have repercussions because you told that story and a guy that I was seeing and he had had been texting me and I had not been truly getting the tax. Oh No I was not with you weren't with CBS sector. You get from me. He just run that into. Yes but you told the story on a talk show and one of his friends called the guy and said. I wonder if there's a chance that Jimmy's not been getting your tax. Because of the story that just hold on like Letterman. The Nova's Gregson the guy reach back out and I'm like no I hadn't been hearing from you. WHO's updating? Yeah right when we come back from the commercial break we're GONNA get into that and a whole lot more to me is because end because we like think I'm really proud of the fact and I don't think this will start anything. Why would it 'cause nobody gives a shit like I'm really proud of the fact that if you were to Google like who I've dated in Hollywood Hollywood they're like the couple of people that we are aware of then? There are some like misleads. Like I'm sure that you and I have been together at some point like Tofu Grayson. I never dated never kissed or held hands and I know that we were publicly. Put together at some point but like there are people I have dated that nobody ever found out about which makes me so proud. Yeah me too actually a couple that snuck snuck who wait people including this guy. Oh okay so he was a well known. That's so funny about this guy. Then he's not into when we came. I remember another story from that when we were told. We used to tell this on on this talk shows doing that. Kissing Scene Gargling gurgling reminds me because in our stomachs it was right before lunch and our stomachs for making that that like Hungary in my stomach died like dinosaurs inside. Oh my God. My stomach is so loud when I'm hungry we'd like to kiss in our in our bodies we'd be uh-huh picking this up on the Mike Sky's the sound guys related kind of frustrated and it's and it's also seen that like if you are not committed to that seen everything becomes cheesy the writings exception. People have made fun of me for that except except you're not committed that that could be a really cheesy but But we so we were trying to stay really focused and it was like we kept laughing having just really bad at that anyway. You got a lot of people asking for advice and stuff since that movie like he's just not as much now but at the time. Oh Oh yeah because I remember we had to go on. We're going on. We did like a radio towards some people keep asking us. Oh my God relationship advice like we're actors we. It should be talking to I now but it was funny. Yeah you're right. It was funny that we did have that relationship in real life we relate we kind of gossip about people we were date. You know people we liked. He's not calling me bag or how did walk walk. The line happened because you had done. Mona Lisa Smile Than you had left. Ed Yes and I did big where you're doing big love at the time. Yes I was already doing big laugh off because I remember that there had been like a background check like somebody called Tom. Hanks's company who produced pig loved being able to background. Check me but Because I shot the pilot for big love but I hadn't yet started the series so I think it must have been in between episodes one and two I shot. Walk the line or something like that and we're such that's just crazy. It was that you go in several times. Mangold went and so many times. Lao You you strike me as being really you must be a good notion okay. Here's the thing I am. Thank you but I realized. Recently I have not gotten job offers but in your hand you're you're L. New secret microphone. Okay don't tell. Our lives are so messed up. I have not gotten anything offers an audition since. Walk the wine. Oh Wow I've audition. I'm not it's not because I became like an offer only I just apparently I'm really lousy and auditions because if I did for I mean Shirley like thousand things since then and so everything. I've gotten since walk. The line has has been because of something else I did. What was it like working with Joaquin Phoenix? I've heard stories about him where it's just so immersive very immersive. No he doesn't get. It took me a while to understand. I'm so technical so it's all on paper. It's all outside inside for me. In general I try like create something externally and then whatever falls into place hopefully emotionally will fall in place And he's not like that so there was a big big learning curve for me about working with different kinds factors 'cause I couldn't really talk you know. The climax of the scene is is. He doesn't want compensation I have because he's just like what are you talking about seeing. Yes yeah we're like in it. I've heard those stories while ramming like obviously an incredible actor Dr Bull incredible but yet like I need to like. I don't need to discuss at this point if I can do. I do it for myself if I have to. But at least I'll have like a uh if if the actress can't help in terms of figuring out with me like we are the puzzle pieces. Where do we fit? What is the structure of the scene? Where where yeah? And if it if actors don't WanNa do that with me. Hopefully I will have a director who can do that with me. I'd go to a producer a show like whatever you call in an acting coach. which but I WANNA talk it out big love? I was one of those you read for the two. You know God chemistry. Read the Bill Paxton and hand Khloe were cast. I had a screen test with bill and I walked in and I remember. I was testing against three there. Were three blondes and me in a room and I was like why am I getting this indefinitely. I went in and I see eye to scenes in one of them was a scene in which I was supposed to be giving bill a hand job and and do not what expect so. I assumed that they wanted I mean obviously I was not going to give him that they wanted sexual contact because why would they choose this scene otherwise so we go into the room and I remember. I'm wearing this short skirt and I realized that I'm not like in a like A. There's senior March like there's no stage situation. I am at a massive conference table with a bunch of suits from play Lehtonen. Hbo There are four hundred. People in the room is a room full of people and I'm a huge armchair on one side of table and bill. Paxton's huge armchair on the other side of the table. And there's camera that has been set up on it. I was just naive so I thought they just weren't thinking when they set this up or the last actress. Had I put the chairs so I crawled across the table and climbing in his lap. And I kissed him. I F- completely faked like we did not go near. Of course it did not do anything inappropriate time not go near before I but I bought the right and I did that part of the scene and then the in the next thing I was supposed to be I was supposed to start with me crying and I had to be crying because the other wives were supposed to come in and catch me crying and asked me about it so I asked if I could be excused used from the audition room while I went outside and like got myself together own. It was wild. I was outside that I realized I don't think anybody else made made out with Bill Paxton and now making them a wait while I do my actor thing and I was like I am not getting this. Oh Oh you mean. I walked back in so dejected. I was crash probably help. I did the next scene and I got in the car and called my agent in. She answered I called her office and she I was connected to her which is important to the story and I said I am so sorry I really messed up. I know that we worked really hard for this. For months and I molested bill. Paxton in the audition Ivan five and made everyone wait for me and sit this whole time that I'm telling the story agents going Jenny. Wait Jenny Wait Jenny. Wait no no and I'm like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry like we were all in this together. And she she goes. Can you just wait a moment and I said yes and all of a sudden I hear the four hundred people. I'm in the four hundred. People on speakerphone speakerphone from the conference room from the screen test. They just all said UNISOM. Welcome to big long. It was the greatest getting a job. Ever it's so cool estimated decision like this. Well yeah as I left the building which calls never happened again but I I also got a call that night from Bill Paxton and he's still have the a message because it was back in a different form voicemail days and he was welcoming to the show and he's going. I wasn't expecting you to laugh. Ah That's cool. I think men have to like and now certainly glad that they're making a point to do this to have somebody helped with doing this. But you have to set boundaries for my Gosh. I remember seeing a Meg Ryan. I disagree I'm supposed to Molester. In the movies was to attack I. News really surreal strange. That's Ryan but also like as she's a woman I don't know so so I said to very gingerly and it's also a weird I didn't know how to broach it. You the independent low budget movies so we'd have time to really talk it through and I can. I put my hands here. Oh yeah let me know. And and she does she was touch me anywhere anywhere. Yeah and she was like Oh yeah feel free to you know and it it. It was really good to hear because it made me. It allowed me to kind of be Rian. The scene and I wasn't so such a fine line. Like how do we. How do we stay freight like because I feel like I've been lucky enough to have most posted? There seems like fairly choreograph. I have such intense like search like an airtight nudity clause. Well this shows. It really helps that. I had that because arms always had to be blocking and legs and things were choreographed to accommodate that and Laura Linney. Actually I was having dinner with Laura Linney wants. She gave me advice about Always still making sure that I am covered because you know there are these loopholes. Where like it's a frame makes it to airing where something has shown you can't sue the network than you can? But they'll have to cut it after that first airing and so I started started putting like sticky notes and stickers like funny stickers on my body and all I remember though you told me Yeah. Yeah that'd be like no way. Jose I'd write like permanent marker on what do you do. What is Judy Judy really doing? When I haven't been seeing in the past and I do 'cause I always a granny I think I might have always granny elements? Yeah you definitely. I can bring down a potential. They're knitting or I am sewing or I am cooking or I am on a school committee not at all a surprise to me. That's not like way what you made did that. What what is your most commonly used Emoji? Would you say I I in a moment. You know I mean I think coca sometimes I'll be typing something and a picture will pop up and then the word turns and you orange. Yea that happens with me. We were that's funny but you mean the Emoji will turn up has as an option and you'd be like. Oh yeah that kind of that's that's it's more expanded Better way of explaining which of that sentence Listen what would it be. What would that Emoji? Bdo thing that you often. Let's be honest I just. I still usually just to like the semi coma for like a wink. That's great that's A. That's a great answer. If you could be a professional athlete what sport you play at professional athlete. Give me some sports that are. That's the answer if you need examples of sports so you can be lugging off for four all right if you could have one snack food for the rest the life I like tea with toast and jam. We've started making our own tests and our own jam or House. The only more grants worth originals. Originals way you know what I had to Amazon prime now today was A. I need a new kanner before Chris. Yeah kanter how do you make jam. Jam got it so easy. I don't know why we buy Jam all like you. Just cook up fruit with sugar and and depending on what the fruit is you may or may not need to add something to help it like a packed into jobs. And that's all you. Do you put it in. Hysteria lies hand. And I just do things that require. Something called the hot water bath sending you boil Sterilize them and seal them. They like like creates a vacuum seal. I could get into that Okay favorite movie of All Time Franco Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet. Oh I love that movie She was so beautiful to via Hussy And it was the guy. I don't know how to pronounce it. But it's like witting or white. If you had to live somewhere else where where would it be the English countryside and Shannon we will end up there. I am sure because my husband lived in England his whole adult life until he met me. Oh see this right. He's Br really he's American but he had gone to school there in the state there he was he was he is so annoying. He is an American whose first job was at the Royal Shakespeare Company and then proceeded to act on the West extend stage until he was cast and sore. I think of your husband is being British. That's funny He's just looks British. She's blonde yeah. When he basically played Kenneth Branagh in Oh my back and watch should I will seen the original? You gotta go yes yes yes. If you have dinner with three people dead or alive never met Shakespeare Spear I sure. Stephen Hawking Einstein no but he and Stephen Hawking and I think because then they're just gonNA start right like talking among themselves and like I'm GonNa get left out. There should be a woman in their own queen. Elizabeth the first okay. Well you're just GONNA start talking in my God there's so much Who's your who's your favorite muppet here? The Peanut Gallery Waldorf in learn Waldorf. It's my favorite answer. The only issues after correctly can't even answer about times you said something we're If you could have one superpower we talked about this what would it be not time travel gatsby Harry Potter choice for sure. Time travel in that kind of what we're doing is actors all the time by the way I only wanted to be like a British period theater actress and when I started out my agent used to have me go into auditions like with an English accent because because I was also always up against it was like the inflate it was there. There was that year when all the Brits came over. Oh Yeah what you're was when we were starting I I would bill ended. I pretend to be English. I thought that that's what I would do. And so what's what's funny to me. I'm not sure if this is accurate. But it seems like most of what I have done John is what would be considered period work in America like I mostly appeared things on where that are set in the forties fifties and sixties. Well that's why this week at obviously obviously in your performances. You're not this but I think of you as being so southern as being you still have retained your. Yeah I guess it's not as thick because it was when I first met you beaten out of me if you got to be one age for the for the rest of your life if you'd pick an age physically that is what would you say physically. It can be picked the children. But you'll have my children a lot of people qualified. That were yes I still want everything else is the same had before kids number reasons. Ah So I would say like physically thirty five but half my children okay if you could be reincarnated As a non human an animal. What would it be a horse horse? Yeah Oh there's great my favorite animals but I feel like I want to be a worse. I would wanna live in some Old Lady's House. He'd let me play with. You're art fire. You'd be reading your elements watcher. Cham- me like little dishes or milk. I don't know I wouldn't want to live with it. I mean it'd be hard because I I wouldn't want to live with a cat lady and you'd have to live with the okay the Beatles or the Rolling Stones Beatles. Yeah Okay Yeah Oh oh you know. By how many people do say the rolling stones. I thought I feel the same way. You do I would say that dismissively judged the question the question. Yeah Yeah If you could only have meatloaf the food or listen to MEATLOAF's music for the rest of your life what would you choose okay. We talking about legacy is the last thing. But what would you want to give the world. What would you want your legacy to be? Oh my gosh your energy I think for instance when I think about my kids this thing that I want to have the most is resilience and I feel like there is like a there is also a version of America that. I'm hoping I'm hoping for that. We are resilient I'm like. I hope that like the future generation. This next generation can bounce back home there's some good signs positive indicators yes yes Like does that count not. It's an open ended question and it's a compliment. I don't mean question in terms of how you want to leave this world and what you hope if anything I mean I guess I guess in a different way it'd be about. We're all in this together. I think we think that way way. I would like us to think more that way. Yeah and that's an inspiration. Maybe from Bill Paxton and people like that and a sense of community. And maybe it's because of the Eh because of that mindset for instance. Josh and I went to an Oscar party last year and in pastures I've I've walked around and sort of like wave people on actors that I've even worked with me and I got him this high. Why that was? I realized all of a sudden we're all trying to like juggle this with something else and we all have to like pair mortgage and we're all trying to be better parents and we're all trying to none of us are probably in in the exact place in our careers. We hoped we would hope we had hoped we would be at this point And secure so much less than you did. Oh my God care so much less priority shifted. Yeah I had one of those like we're all in this together moments in my husband getting excited about seeing being an actress and neither one of us knew her and he wanted to meet her and this was walking into this party and I was like. We're just GONNA go make what are you doing and I grabbed ours like we are such huge each fans and this is the other thing and ended up and make friends and then I got on. This high was going around to like every single person I saw this and also also realizing I had were most Josh said like to. Oscar party is just like going to your high school reunion. Yeah and I feel very old. But I've worked a lot of big ensemble projects for years or longer than you were in high school into exactly but I even Su. There was even a moment where I was like well. I've never actually worked with address Elba but he was in Zootopia so what was amazing. It was the most amazing meeting Because I tapped on his shoulder and in turn around then he's also like massive feet taller than I am and I just like emanates. Aw I don't know you won't know me but into toby. I was and I did like the bunny symbol. I was the bunny and exactly like your character right. I was about to say freaked out when you were cast because I was like. You know I'm GonNa work for Luther. Because he was the police he he became the police chief Zootopia Utopia mean he. Was the police even working for leader. So it's about to start that. But he like he bent over me and very excitedly it goes. Do you think you're the bunny. We're GONNA make another one and I was like I don't know if I have your attention. May I ask if we have another one. If I can actually have a recording session with you and so anyways there was a wonderful. I just had this wonderful night. It's like we're all in this all coming at it from the same place. I'm sure hi. Is there someone that interests all by is is hopefully also intimidated by this holy. And anyone who doesn't doesn't have that mindset who would judge somebody for being excited needed or like going right up to somebody and engaging with them. I don't care to know them. I don't care about their opinion of me anymore. Yeah it's such a like that's that's-that's sucked about highschool like we don't. That was a bad element of highschool judge. You and there was a hierarchy. We've come full circle. What Ed was character Ktar crossed my mind? How crazy it is to me and like emotional that we're talking in a way that like we've not figured it all out figured a few do things out and we've come? I think. Correct me if I'm wrong to this more kind of stable grounded place. We have so many little bit but we've grown up. Yeah and you're jogging all of these clear memories of like it being new and there was a great part too. You know there was like an exciting element and it's it's really nice that we can process it in this way I think. Are you happier. Now Yeah I am I miss certainly I miss things about that time and But I think in general. I think I'm happier more calm. Yeah only miss being able to sleep in off in my skin being a bit more last autos are the only two things so sleep. Last city are the only thing official things that I probably can't talk about. Yeah but in terms of like a sense of wellbeing mind. I feel a lot more more balanced and I don't know that's and it's just. I'm so glad that we were able to do this. Sir Thanks for having me. I love this. This is the best. So how many well van happened. No well that happened. She has such a well. That happened doing a the. You're like a flat latte no. She's very southern. Yeah catching up. I was great. It was really great. I was so you know when you don't see somebody for a long time somebody that you had spent so much much somebody that you were so comfortable with and it just fall right back into it. It took like thirty seconds a minute. Yeah right back that I felt just really early at ease with her and you know part of it is like we can tease each other. I forgot how nice that is John. Nice freedom and we are at that stage we spent so much which time together and especially in that. TV show because we worked together for like three years and we were the same age roughly and spend a lot of time together. That's what always intrigued me about your relationship with their because you're such good friends and you're both objectively attractive. Oh Wow you. You're about the same age your coworkers. You got along really well. I know we never nothing ever happened between. Not only did it not happen but there was never even a moment of like awkwardness that it may. It was in the air. Never been in the air so why well so I kind of know why on her end. Yeah Yeah Yeah. We never had the energy around each other like we had like family energy. You know we're we're like we were so comfortable with each other maybe deep down. We didn't WANNA mess that up right. You're she was more of a sister to you Yeah clearly she has her taste in men are well. This is this. Where are you going to say? You know why she wasn't sure her current husband and her ex the excellent I know about their very very conventionally handsome. Yeah kind of leading man. I hurt current her husband now obviously prince charming literally prince charming not literally literally but but but literally body Sabin literally on the show plays he literally. Yeah but on the show. He's don't contribute to that being on the show. He's literally prince charming now. He's not literally yes. He's playing literally prince charming. But you wouldn't use that word because you wouldn't say he's subject. He's he's figuratively playing prince. Charming people don't figurative lead play characters literally wouldn't be you. That's true that's true you're using you're right that people. Oh Yeah Oh no. I almost made it a comparison to like well Gary Oldman's Literally Dracula in the Movie Dracula. But you're right he's ridiculous. Oh boy you're part of the problem album that you write shit that's been is charming. He's any was cast as Prince. Charming prince charming is not going to be unattractive physical. I mean you have to to be at least somewhat. She's attracted to vary convention Iraq and that's why she never wrote was interested in. What is your point is shoot is not physically attracted to me? It makes sense sense. Yeah they're also blinds. She likes exactly she has blonde hung's introduced her like you guys talked about in in the interview with her ex fiance. They Joey and they another proud. You were oh I told him it was yeah well you time. It was like a match made in. It was a great match. Martha got along so well they hit it off right away. They're comfortable with each other right away right away away like a few months later they were engaged. And you'd always Brag about how Mr Match I was so excited for the wedding because I wanted to be how I'm responsible for this. Remember picking her up in the BERKSHIRES. I remember going. That's a really nice thing. I have a feeling I just wanted an excuse to get in my car and drive up through the BERKSHIRES. Because it's such a beautiful drive and like I remember i. I had a car back on. That really loved to drive. It was manual stick Tift Fund zippy car and I loved going up there to the berkshires through Williamstown. Maybe we saw I remember going to see a play with her. In fact I think we saw Romeo and Juliet. I I think we could have been a very romantic day it. Yeah also that. I'm going to save her. From this. Social gobs trouble that she's in I drive all the way up there she she in fact I can't believe drive up in a stallion spe- a prince charming didn't look like prince charming. I see what's it. Yeah that's the thing she made it. Put a full court press on if you had you know. Yeah but I it's different jawline and maybe an hair color mostly Jolan. I could have got a the job and again I Yeah it makes sense that makes sense it also makes sense why then we got along so well because once that that is kind of off the table. Whatever there's no awkward no awkwardness? It's great yeah you turn down wicked. He had the reading the table. Read of it. I think part of the reason I passed on it was because I didn't have the confidence like genie notice of singing confidence. I didn't think that I could do the character. Character have a lot of songs. Yes the character. Had Chris Fitzgerald Played Him in the in the original and I think you had a couple of songs I think two or three and his in in throughout singing. So it's not like it would have been. This might have been embarrassing. The am I think I was probably just I lacked but they would have given you voice lessons. I'm sure I don't know now. Obviously like I regret it but also would have been love to worship show again. He's one of the best. Yeah and demands L.. Oh God and Delta seem would've man one that got away you think anyone's ever said the term player haters and sounded wider. I AH shortly after that I put inert. She was and like charmingly. She's like a charming nerd. Owns it you call it a nurse Earth. She's like a grander yeah. She's like an old nurse calls herself. That basically it's charming because she is not trying to be something something else. How do you feel about being hustle puff out because you said that so cash? Yeah and that's how she uses those terms casually. Yeah well my you know like I would drink and my son's also have to but my youngest one's Griffin Dune I know it's so ludicrous. But it means she knows that world so well. That Bennett has meaning meaning to her. When you just throw those around that I mean remember when he ran into where at the Grove and Danny for the because they were both being released the next day? Hey you really can't. They were like sleeping over. People are rabid. Yeah for that for those books movies. And I'm a little ashamed to admit that I have never read one of the books or never seen one of the movie. Did I say that to end the interview. I think I was probably too ashamed. I don't think it did no. I should have she would. She would like flown out of there on her little broomstick. But I know they're great. I believe I believe I. I don't doubt for a second. There's a reason they're that popular. I WENT BACK TO MY I. Just Saina don't don't my ex girlfriend was so into. I know years ears was to and just read one of the books. You'll understand I. I know who didn't I'd rather watch married at first sight. I'd rather watch some like I. I really like all the job I WANNA say. One thing about. This is when my heard potter like indifference reached reach maximum capacity. was when I you went back to my college and I saw a bunch of kids playing this game and I remember like it was where they used to play ultimate Frisbee but they were like riding on their quidditch quidditch. There was a competitive quidditch team at my school shadow to Vassar. I really loved it there but as I even know I know that thing. How do you know roughly now? But the fact that I even know that word means that Harry Potter is has seeped into my but I remember watching them and thinking how ludicrous it seemed to me and this is judgement until and I'm sure people have had a lot of fun. I'm sure if I play quidditch. I have a lot of fun but but I remember thinking. They're all these broomsticks like riding around like Jack asses the running around with these things between their legs so they dress like little magician. They were wearing wizards. What are they? They're wizards they're all wizards. Yeah Richard School. Harry's a wizard they're all. Harry goes to school with fellow little wizards. They're all Emma Watson. Julie's wizard I think do they call it a wizard or is there female wizard. I don't know which issue a witch rich maybe. Oh boy we're going to get by the way on man we're gonNA catch away. Let me reinforce the fact that I know that it's great. I haven't seen it. Of course it's great. It's a phenomenon it'll last way longer than we are so insignificant compared to her well calm down. It's a great thing and and and do you like my just kidding rowlings joke. That was funny. She didn't she didn't go too well. Because maybe it's not J. K.. Simmons just Kidding Simmons stupid she when you ask her favorite sport was she said. Give me some sports example. Funny funny she said it's so earnestly too. I like the death chat you guys talked about how having a funeral and saying that made me really really. Yeah I was just We don't we don't we're all around US still. We never cease existing and we just become less. Orderly thought those really beautiful. What lines disappear like Chris Chambers at the end of Stanford? Yeah the line from that. That really struck me was when she referred to our own bodies our own our own heat like our own warmth that we give up this warmth that we almost don't appreciate and then one day it will just be cold. Sorry man what a what a perfect noon when a perfect thing to say You never asked her why she changed her name. But I used to be because a lot of the interview view was you missed some obvious stuff. Like what was it like growing up in Memphis. I know you already knew. And who's more catching up than opera right. The name was is crazy wasn't a real Jennifer and she changed to Jennifer right yeah. I don't think I wonder if people know this. And it's simple as this and this is what you missed. Her real name is Jennifer like you said. And the reason she's called Jennifer she changed. She legally changed. I think is because everyone called her growing up the way she would pronounce the G.. Gina for in so she changed it from j. e. and two G. I. N. N.. But also to be to kind of sleeping now more more Napa Malaysian knowing. I knew I forget but I know she changed it. was she changed. I think it really came from that southern dialogue southern southern accent. Alright letter okay. This is from Khloe e subject. Proud Ozzy Fan art. He we know. Hi Hi Justin and Christian longtime listener first-time caller in it's one of those emojis with a winky face and tongue sticking out. I'm not gonna read it like that. I'm sorry I'm sorry that's offensive. I wanted to start off by saying what a great podcast you guys have created every episode. Leads me so excited to listen to the next one on between on Your Optical Dispenser Tin Stay at home mother. Three active boys league. Okay all right all right let me the two I. I spend my days playing and and laughing and working hard to try and bring up boys to one day be kind polite smart men on days when my kids go to daycare. Your podcast keeps me sane while I delve into the mindless housework. That's really really nice. I'm currently the surely the only one in my friendship group. That has kids. When I started listening to yourself and Christian I truly realized quote life is short? I'm only twenty nine fine and I live my life day in and day out for my kids. Now that it's a bad thing but in doing so I kind of forget about myself. You guys reminded me that I to a person who needs to live her life and so I did. It's something I always talked about doing but never thought I'd do apply to be a contestant on the Australian survivor cool. Well I don't even care if I get on the show or not. She's is not yet. Okay I really do care and I really do want to get on because I love survivor but I felt like putting myself out there and applying was just a stepping stone. I needed to start being Megan and not just mom mom. So thank you and your guests bringing little sanity and good conversation back into my day. There's only so many times I can sing the alphabet. Read the very cranky bear in in a day before going full fetal. That's funny that sounds like a very Australian. I don't think we have no Elliott. Yeah I wanna read that now the very cranky the keep doing what you do from a dedicated shorty. Aw and a massive stand by me fan awesome and then that's cool. Thank you chloe. That is yeah in two thousand nine three kids. That's that must be tough when your friends because it's one thing to have other friends with kids and then you end up hanging out. Kids hang out and but that must be really a and I'm so glad that we're able to keep you company. That's so cool. And thank you for writing in and if it takes a short shorty yeah and thanks for all the shorties for being short. He's on my God. It's a if you want to be short that's right you don't have to be Australian any any actual from any country and because because all countries are on facebook. It's a facebook group that's right called shorties atten. Life is short justin loan especially because I am a proud surely and and Yeah you can actually enjoy an end. If you are shorty or even a non shorter you can write in. You don't have to be a shortage just right to wonder dope. Oh yeah life is short at sorry. I guess I'm not a short short wondering dot Com. That's our email address and we love hearing from you guys. So thanks. Thanks is Khloe and thank you so much to our guest Jeannie my old friend Jeannie Lena I Jennifer God. It was nice to see her. And if so great catching up and I hope you guys enjoyed it because I know when you know somebody so well and those can sometimes be lake. Yeah but like you're people catch up. Well well I loved it selfishly. Because she's she's really fun. Night could be a dream life. Good you you know. Life is short is hosted by me just long. It's produced by a man who currently both of his hands in his pants Christian over my underwear you're aware of that and it's also produced by Meghan Monaco senior producer. Michelle me lands audio. Engineer is Sergio. Sergio in Rica's are executive producers. Are Marshal Louis enter non Lopez four one four one. Yeah and so how do you think you know when Vinnie rockets. You're at Harry. Wizard Gandalf from smell like Harry Potter. Your Wizard Harry. You're Harry Wizard. Remember that guy the big guy that off time from all Harry Harry Potter. No Guy did Jerry. Might Harry wizard his walks by with. Why would that be your wizard? Harry Levin Debbie Harry Potter Joe Harry. You're a wizard Harry Potter. Just your wizard think about it. It makes sense. If it's your airy wizard standoff just watch the first one current but What's that one called two towers repulsive the way less this or no? No Harry Potter about the saints. No it's patchy MERCI retriever snakes. No it's the seats.

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439- Welcome to Jurassic Art Redux

99% Invisible

39:41 min | 5 months ago

439- Welcome to Jurassic Art Redux

"Odu suite of business apps has everything you need to run a company. Think of your smartphone with all the right at your fingertips odu is just like that for business but instead of an app to order takeout or tell you the weather you have sales inventory accounting and more you name the department odu has it covered and they are all connected. Join these six million dollars. Users who stopped wasting time and started getting stuff done go to odu dot com slash invisible to start a free trial. That's odio dot com slash invisible. This episode is supported by ninety nine designs by vistaprint the global creative platform making it easy for small business owners to create custom branding. Their world-class designers are ready to bring your ideas to life from logos and websites to product packaging. More these by piece they help your business. Become a brand find. The right design for you and ninety nine designs dot com ninety. Nine designs by vistaprint is where creativity meets possibility. This is ninety nine percent invisible. I'm roman mars when we look at the world around us. Our minds are trained to fill in visual gaps to form a more complete mental picture. So if you see a peak of a mountain in the distance chances are pretty good. The whole mountain below it and for the most part that kind of mental extrapolation is really useful. When we noticed part of a thing out in the world our brains on the hitless. See your picture. That's ni- zone kolstad as a before. We launched the bigger episode for today curtin. I recently encountered a small story. That was something that we've covered before it's about how our imaginations while trying to fill in those gaps times lead us astray they do and even with things that we think we visualize really well like for example icebergs anywhere you look from like an inspirational poster to kids illustration. We think we know icebergs. Look like they looked like this little rounded hump on top and this sort of spike going into the water below like a big ice cream cone. Right i've definitely seen that before. I mean that's the whole expression tip of the iceberg. You see that little mound deep spike. And that's the whole point of the visual metaphor and the metaphor metaphor. And i've thought about that before i've used it a lot myself but never really considered it literally lake as in just seeing the tips of what that really means until i saw this image posted online by ugly. She just here. Just take a look okay. So this is an iceberg. I'm assuming is gonna watercolor join is pretty simple. But it's basically just a lump of ice. it's a bit smoother than you know that the icebergs that we are picturing their heads before it's more like a a stone in a river and like we've been told about icebergs in school. Most of it sits below the surface of the water. But it really doesn't look like that big cone with deep vertical root it really is like a scoop of ice cream rather than a cone exactly and it's you know. Part of that is what you'd expect right. You expect only a small part of it to show up above the water but the rest of it what you see below. It's nothing like that cone shape right in women who drew it. Her name is megan thompson. Munson and she's a glaciologist. And she posted this watercolor online with a really specific call to action basically. She argues that we need to rethink how we represent icebergs just in her drawing itself. We're taught that ten percent is above water. And this shows you know. Basically ten percent is above the water. But it doesn't have that deep vertical configuration. Because when you think about it that doesn't make any sense if you put a pool noodle and a pool it wouldn't stand upright it goes on. It's exactly right. It's like you know once you think about it. You kind of get it but you have to think about it. I so in light of this misconception. She's urging other scientists to think about it and to draw icebergs in quote stable orientations. So this is just one example and all birds are presumably different. How do you know what the orientation should be what. You should be picturing. Well that's the thing once. She put this image up online right. This software development came into the thread and his name is joshua tauber and he was basically inspired by her post to make this website called icebreaker. And it's really simple it. Just lets you draw ice shapes and see how they float so for example if you draw cone it will slowly reorient that cone to float on its side and you can sort of see that shift in slow motion to so you can kind of see physics action and in the end it winds up at the stable orientation. That's cool. Yeah this is your show me a picture of a cone and now it's definitely a cone. That's lex sadly on its side So the idea with is broker. Is you just trace out any shape. And then it'll just rotate until it finds its level and that's how nature exactly that's exactly it and the site has so disclaimers like you know real. Icebergs are three dimensional complex entities are going to be a little different so the website is just sort of a simple intuition aid more than a scientific tool and the people is just to give you a better idea of what might happen. Roughly speaking various shapes like this one. This is a cat cat cat and so this is like what if there was an catch iceberg. And when you see it actually surprisingly a stable configuration and the cat's head above the water and the tail above the water but it is pretty funny and you know odds are babysitting part of this break off like the tail in real life but but it does give you an idea that like okay what you see above the surface and you can imagine. Underwater can be very different rate And it's just kind of funny other than you know getting an accurate scientific picture to sort of combat this proverbial vision of what we have of of icebergs. Why is important to visualize iceberg properly. Why was this megan's hill to die on. Well i think it was. It was her glacier to die in part of because she's a glaciologist. Right and practically speaking. Okay there's not a whole lot of application for this right be if you're boating close to an iceberg. It is good to know that expert could spread out aways under the water That way you know you might avoid hitting it but really it speaks to this larger issue In many scientists geology where so much of the world is invisible to us right so my dad for example is a geophysicist and when he's explaining big planetary physical phenomena and change over time. Like how tonic plates shift around the world. Visual aids are completely essential to the bigger issue is is representing things more scientifically in general Whether it be icebergs in pop culture or scientific diagrams in textbooks or diagrams on the news or something like that right. It's like as long as we're going to try to represent these things we might as well get it right for the sake of education for the sake of really understanding the world around us. Sure and what. This fairly specific baller story made me think of was emmett's ninety nine pm episode on dinosaurs. It's about how drawings have both been shaped by but also shaped the discipline of paleontology and you know like glaciologist. Geologists paleontologists have this important role in helping us visualize things but like these other scientists they have to extrapolate times to based on whatever evidence they have so evidence. Like the fossilized bones of dinosaurs or or even this sort of modern genetic relatives of dinosaurs. That that's how we extrapolate what they look like. Yeah exactly and so. Icebergs are kind of this great contemporary physical example. But they're also this useful analogy right. It's really easy to use icebergs to how we sometimes can't see what's below the surface and they hinted this larger challenge scientists face broadly. Like how do we picture what we can't see and it turns out. That's much deeper question on that note. We're going to revisit. And fitzgerald story called welcome to jurassic art and while listening you might wanna keep other scientific disciplines in mind because it probably applies to most of them. Anyone who has kids knows that they go through obsessive phases. That can last anywhere from a few days to several years. I went through a lot of phases growing up. That's producer amid fitz-gerald. There was a brief train phase. Then in preschool. I was obsessed with farming equipment. I could list obscure european tractor brands off the top of my head like an old italian wheat farmer. But i think my most intense obsession like many kids was dinosaurs anymore about dinosaurs at the age of five than i do now and all but certain that i would one day become a paleontologist where this dinosaur obsession came from. But i think part of it was just dinosaurs. Look so cool. I had all these books with incredible drawings of course dinosaurs leaping around roaring and terry into one another. I fell in love with the artwork in those books and at least for the time. Being art is the only way we experienced dinosaurs. We can study bones and fossils but barring the invention of time travel or some drastic park resurrection scenario. We will never see these animals with our own eyes. There are no photos or video which means that if we want to picture how they look someone has to draw them slow. I'm dr robert bucker known to the folks in north texas as jurassic. Bob i dig bums dinosaur bones bob walker is one of the most famous living paleontologists and he also happens to be a very skilled paleo artist. He thinks the two go hand in hand. Art is very important in teaching natural history. Science maybe all signs teach everyone art and everyone music to patterns. Jus i like bob a lot. When i interviewed him in a studio in boulder colorado. He showed up an hour early and he brought his own snacks He's got snacks here. He's got coffee and some apple. Free range apple pie. This is so liberal place. This is so Boulder cage free apple pie once we got started with our interview. Bob said that like me. He got obsessed with dinosaurs and dinosaur art. Pretty early on how i got. Hooked was a piece of journalism from one thousand nine hundred and fifty teeth. Three life magazine cover story called the whole world. We live in an pictures of dinosaurs and not the cover. Image was the head of a long neck. Dinosaur sitting in a swamp munching on grass with a stegosaurus in the background. Sort of staring off into space inside. Was this long article about evolution after two hours with a life magazine by announced to my startled parents. Mom and dad. I want to grow up. And be vertebrate paleontologist and dad no expression and mom smiles. That's nice dear. It's a stage. You'll outgrow but unlike me dinosaurs weren't just the childhood phase jurassic bob. By the time he headed off to college. A career invertebrate paleontology was still the game plan. But it was kind of a strange time to be entering the field. In the mid twentieth century american dinosaur science was in a bit of a rut done doors were considered big dumb cold blooded reptiles evolutionary failures destined for extinction and that view of dinosaurs affected how they were painted and drawn most of the paintings of dinosaurs. They're not moving. They're not interacting with each other. There's no spark of intelligence social life and their bodies were like poking masses of flesh the way brontosaurus and diplo tickets biggest. Dinosaurs were illustrated. They're like giant carre vacuum cleaners with very very short legs and they were slowly pulling themselves across the landscape or sitting neck deep in a fetid swamp. Dinosaurs were often drawn sitting in swamps like on that life magazine cover the thinking was they were so large. They couldn't possibly hold up their own body weight. And if they were drawn on land they usually dragged their fat tails behind them as they walked. And that's where we were in the early nineteen sixties. Dinosaurs were sad. Cold blooded dense ends in the history of life but paleontology was about to go through a spectacular and unanticipated u-turn and a young bob barker just off to college would find himself right in the thick of the action freshman year. The yale geology department took me a bunch of other. Freshmen out today. The trip out west was led by one of bob's professors. At yale appealing named john and among other things we dug up four raptures. They were a new species of raptor. That professor ostrom named dynamic meaning terrible claw and the bones were found really close together presumably. They live together. They were pack may be intelligent but what really got professor. Austin excited was the inada me of the skeleton after studying the fossil remains back at yale ostrom concluded that dynamic has had not been a slow plotting swamp creature. It had been fleet-footed agile. An extremely active ostrom began to argue. That if you really looked at the anatomy of many dinosaurs they looked less like lumbering lizards and more like super athletic birds and his student. Bob barker found this idea really compelling. He remembers looking at a skeleton of a different dinosaur called or the less. T's really did look like a roadrunner with a long bony tail and teeth. Wow it just spoke at chile but then you read the text books not supposed to believe that as an undergraduate bacher dissect it modern animals in an effort to better understand dinosaur musculature then. He concluded that the old stereotypes about stupid sluggish. Dinosaurs just didn't hold up. They weren't slow and sloppy now. This idea wasn't totally. New bacher says that for decades going back as early as the mid nineteenth century there had been people saying that dinosaurs were smart active and bird like but these facts were forgotten about really dropped out of textbooks so bucker decided to publish a paper in a journal and editor says. I know what you should call the study. And i said what she said. You should call it the superiority of dinosaurs. I said yeah that's it. They weren't evolutionary has been. They weren't dead ends and the flow of darwinian process. They were top of the line. They beat everybody but convincing people that dinosaurs were actually totally different than they had been. depicted for. The past sixty years was gonna require more than a few good academic papers to really change people's minds. Sometimes you gotta show instead of tell and remember. Bacher was a skilled illustrator as well as a scientist. And so when. John ostrom wrote his definitive paper on dynamic cus he asked bacher to illustration and i positioned to bones as if his raptor was running in. The picture of the rafter is nearly parallel with the ground. It's left legs bringing forward. It's right leg curl tightly against its torso preparing for the next stride. The tail is high in the air. It's beautiful and kind of terrifying australian. Put the picture right on the front of his paper then. It quickly became an iconic drawing. No one had ever seen anything quite like. It is renegade. This is darren nash paleontologist based in the uk. He's a flamboyant appearance. He insists on wearing a cowboy. Hal time he's got giant bushy beard and right from the late sixties when. He's starting to talk about this stuff. He's he's drawing these agile active dinosaurs. Bacher finish up at yale and went off to graduate school where he continued to speak truth to the slow dumb dinosaur establishment. He wrote academic and popular articles about how impressive. Dinosaurs had been illustrated them all himself. He drew dinosaurs bounding across the prehistoric landscape. Like track and field stars with lithe muscular bodies so froyo prior to this time. An animal likes to run. A source would have been drawn as like a good deal. Type animal dragon. It's telling the ground it's not a pretty attractive beast but on the back. Oh you this thing. Shown with massive bojan muscles and athletic. Dinosaurs became a model for other paleo artists so when my dynamic is drawing appeared. Some is younger than i said. Okay now we can do it. Artists like gregory. Paul embrace this new exciting vision of dinosaurs. They started giving their dinosaurs vibrant colors and occasionally feathers to really emphasize their bird. Nece soon images of athletic colorful dinosaurs were everywhere. Can they helped fuel the revolution that was taking place in paleontology throughout the seventies more and more paleontologist got on board with ostrom and bacher's theories they found new fossils and footprint evidence suggesting that dinosaurs have been warm blooded intelligent and bird like this period has become known as the dinosaur renaissance a moment when we totally rethought all of our assumptions about these incredible prehistoric animals. In deir nation. Things art was a huge part of its success. I think that part of the reason that the dinosaurs dancer the dinosaurs of ostrom and and backer drew in so many scientists in the sixty seventies was because it was accompanied by brilliant visuals if anyone missed out on the scientific revolution and still thought that dinosaurs were slow and stupid that ended in nineteen ninety-three. The dinosaurs drastic park are very active. The dinosaurs jurassic park nineteen ninety-three the dinosaur and is ons donna souls and when that movie came out the whole world got to see these fierce athletic creatures running through kitchens and eating lawyers off of toilets and once you've seen the dinosaurs jurassic park you can't unsee them. I think it cemented the notion of athletic dinosaurs. This is john conway. He draws dinosaurs for a living. I'm a paleo which means the joran paint prehistoric animals. Conway got interested in paleo art. After reading bob barker's book the dinosaur heresies and in the early part of his career he true dinosaurs that looked a lot like walkers super lean muscle but after a while. he's starting to feel kind of funny about it. He says that all dinosaurs looked like they had been shrink wrapped. Suction pack you paki close and you put the The vacuum cleaner on and suck the air out and at shrinks it down. That's sort of during the dinosaurs. Were sort of putting skin on them and then vacuuming out. Anything that was in between that skin and the muscles now. Paleo artists weren't just doing that to make their dinosaurs. Look all cool buff. They were trying to be accurate. I am part of the generation of paleo artists. That grew up from a young age. When i started to think that it really mattered to get things right and to get things right. You want your art to be rooted in real scientific evidence and the main piece of evidence is often the skeleton. Paleo artists would base the shape of their dinosaurs on an accurate skeleton. The bones give you a pretty good idea where the muscles should go but soft tissues like skin and cartilage and fat are much harder. Fat usually doesn't survive for millions of years in fossils and so without any evidence of it pelley artists tended to be pretty conservative about how much fat gave their dinosaurs. Which makes total sense. You're not going to add something that you don't have evidence for but the result was all these dinosaurs looked like. They went to the gym three times a day and drank protein shakes. For every meal john conway says began to feel as though paleo artists had replaced one orthodoxy. With another at some point. I thought you know we can't just keep doing this. This is not interesting in many ways and is it even right. Is this conservative. Approach really giving people the right notion about what dinosaurs looked just because fat didn't survive for millions of years doesn't mean that a dinosaur habit. They are animals after all animals have fat and they have it all over the place and some places have really big fat reserve which changes shite fairly drastically underscored. This point conway asked me to consider a thought experiment if we reconstructed modern animals like we reconstruct honest. What would they look like in other words. If some alien paleontologist from years in the future was the try and draw a modern animal life say a whale or a camel. Just from their fossilized skeleton. How would it look well if you actually do it. The modern animals look ridiculous. If you draw a bowhead whale for example just from the skeleton without a lot of fat or blubber it looks kind of like a giant. Tadpole with the boldest head in a long snake like tail. I mean you take away all that stuff and you not left with much wail. Because wales their shape is defined by fat dinosaurs also had enjoyed. John argues that would have changed their shape pretty dramatically who knows some might even had humps like camels. Yeah you could take one of the mice familiar dinosaurs that dino could have camel humps and we wouldn't know because you can't tell from camel's back that it has just can't has not really anything they're brontosaurus going head humps now. Scientists do sometimes find dinosaur fossils with the soft tissues intact. And when they do they can completely change our of the animal the dinosaur satanic assault for example used to be depicted in a standard shrink wrapped kind of way intil paleontologists found this amazing full body fossil where lots of the fat and the skin and the different soft tissues had been perfectly preserved. Turns out the fleshy outlaw and around the body was quite extensive. It was quite chubby. Creature striping all over. The place will ever the body and growing off the top of the tire. He's got like a hundred long curving quills. The look like floppy porcupine quells and let you out a lot together. That's a creature. That's we just would not predict that based on just finding bones elaine. In recent years fossils have been found with fat and frills and coats of feathers. Way more than anyone have predicted so turns out every time we discover something like this. It's weird and that caught me thinking so if all the ones we've discovered so far have turned out to be pretty weird. What does that tell us about the rest of them. There are bizarre possibilities out there. That no one's looking at and i thought well stop during some of these things so john began to try something new with his art. He started to speculate. Started drawing pudgy dinosaurs and dinosaurs with humps and quills. Weird skin flaps and that was my rule it was. How can we go. What's the most outrageous thing i can do that. We know we don't know isn't. Trade is still within the realm of possibility. It's not falsify. John was just making stuff up out of thin air. it was like there was a standard conservative dinosaur. The center of his drawings and then me would cover it with more speculative elements. There wasn't claiming that every drawing he did was perfectly accurate but he wanted to show people that dinosaurs as a group probably had a lot more weird variety than we think and so to get the overall picture of dinosaurs right. I think you need a healthy speculation in their conway says that dinosaur art should always reflect the latest science what we know for sure but we'll never know everything and i think the speculation is about what extra bits of weird beauty were in the wells back then the we'll just never know about. The role of the artist is to bring back some of that real magic as a prehistoric. Well that was certainly there. John eventually decided to give the world some of that magic in the form of a book. He teamed up with darren nation and another paleo artist. They memo coz men and published a slim little paperback called all yesterday's all yesterday's is filled with dinosaurs. That look very different from what you're used to. There's a triceratops that's covered in spines a magento source with skin that camouflages it against the forest floor. And if there isn't a source that is so covered in feathers. It looks like a haystack. And next to each image the artists describes why they drew it that way. The camouflage dinosaur is drawn that way because the artist reason that it's oddly proportioned body might have made it vulnerable to predators and in need of some kind of defense strategy. All yesterday's was a big hit and it helps spark a little movement. For more speculative paleo. Art we talk about the oil. Yesterday's movement as like is the new frontier of the way we should depict prehistoric animals. There says it's more acceptable now to draw a dinosaur based on a hypothesis. For example horned dinosaurs like triceratops. Have these absurdly large nostrils that have confused paleontologists for years. There've been a few different hypotheses but forward by scientists and one of them is. The dinosaurs may have had inflatable knows balloons. Kind of like elephants seal hooded seal inflatable pouches but just would've looked weird and grotesque and to us. That's a very real possibility now. Twenty years ago if someone were to draw triceratops with balloons they would have been laughed. At the i would say that. What what we call the yesterday's movement means that is now. Coit reasonable for an artist site. I've shown mitra ceratops join inflatable balloons for this reason. And you could say night. Due at us to speculative that it would be equally justifiable to say okay for the time being. That's okay that doesn't mean. Triceratops definitely had knows balloons but by drawing it that way it's like the artist is asking us to keep an open mind because even though we know a lot about the prehistoric world and more and more every day the science always changing. The past is always a moving target pill. Yard is not just about drawing dinosaurs with stripes and knows balloons illustrators also depict dinosaur behavior which may have even a greater impact on how we imagine extinct animals more on that after this. If you've always thought about starting a website or you have one. It really isn't giving you what you need. Now is the time to move squarespace. Scores based gives millions of people the tools they need to bring their creative ideas to life. I'm talking about artists. Showing the work nonprofits raising funds and of course podcasters sharing their audio. Well may squarespace work for me. And all those other people is combined. Great design with world class engineering. But you don't have to be a world-class engineer to use it. You have all this powerful functionality to e commerce marketing analytics and more right at your fingertips in it's easy for anyone to use had to squarespace dot com slash invisible for free trial when you're ready to launch offer goad invisible to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Do you have thirty minutes to spare because after just one half hour. You'll never have to worry about a break in at home again. That's how quick and easy it is to set up. A security system from simplisafe is kind of thing so easy you can do it while listening to your favorite podcast. In fact our episodes are about thirty minutes. And you can enjoy listening to that while you enjoy setting up your simplisafe system. It's really easy to customize simply safe for your home just go to simplisafe dot com slash nine nine you can easily choose the exact sensors you need or you can get help from one of their experts. It will all arrive in your house in about a week. Go to simplisafe dot com slash. Nine today to customize your system and get a free security camera but simplisafe dot com slash nine nine today. Ninety nine percent visible is brought to you by progressive one of the country's leading providers of auto insurance with progressive. Name your price tool you can say what kind of coverage you're looking for and how much you want to pay incredible help you find options that fit within your budget. Use the name your price tool and start an online quote today at progressive dot com price and coverage match limited by state law. Hello this is back with roman in the studio to talk a little bit more about paleo art. I ruin In this piece we focused a lot on on dinosaur appearance. Like the look of their physical bodies. But there's there's like another pretty important issue. This is dinosaur behavior like if you're going to draw a dinosaur. You're you're going to draw it doing something doing something and so like when you think of of like dinosaur art what are the dinosaurs usually doing Usually the t rex is tearing something apart. Usually the at least. I was a kid that brontosaurus as we mentioned was standing in a swamp with leaves sort of hanging out of its mouth. Right if it's like a meeting dinosaur it's probably eating. Another dinosaur are attacking another dance or visit plant. Eating dinosaur is probably being attacked or like running away in some kind of way or eating a plant. I mean it sort of seems to be like whatever you ate as a dinosaur is what you should be depicted doing right any moment. It's being depicted in form of art. Which like you know. I mean in some ways. It's it's not just the dinosaur thing like if you think about Nature documentaries we liked to depict action totally like was the last time you saw a cheetah doing anything other than running down a gazelle and like biting its throat but like cheetahs. Do a lot of other things. They have a complex life. And that's like a real a real point though with with art. For for people. Like darren and john who who are in our pieces like they think the lives of a lot of animals including dinosaurs are a lot less action packed than it feels. Like when you're just looking at the yard then no opening their mouths and boring the camera all the time. They're not just killing and fighting. They're doing things that living animals do. They like moving around and sleeping and and finding food and being boring. Love the time and you mentioned this earlier but like i feel like of all the dinosaurs that we don't associated with that kind of like boring activity like tyrannosaurus. Rex ranks like pretty high. Like of all the ones we associate with a action and violence. Yeah it's rex absolutely it's always chomping at something. That's its role. Even the end of drastic park is role as due in the movie by chomping. A dinosaur right right. And so when. Darren gentler writing the book all yesterday's they obviously wanted to put a trend source in there and john based his t rex painting on this one skeleton. This kind of famous skeleton at scientists have nicknamed. Stan stein is quite an aggressive looking renaissance. In a way it's got quite a lodge long scary looking head and so standard is traditionally depicted doing very nasty things to other animals. But john is pretty adamant like that's not the whole truth of who this creature was. They probably gonna kill something. Once every two weeks. They spent the vast majority of their life asleep. Probably with a great big full bellyache. Just sleeping on the ground. And so that's how i painted it. So do you have that picture in the book. yes yes. Here's the book peaceful. Yeah it's almost like a cute image. it's very cute. Yeah just like slightly curled up with little tiny t arms of by. Its gin. this is like one of john's like favorite pieces from all yesterday's and and and he calls it a sleepy stan. Well in fact this picture it doesn't even show his teeth once sleeping. Which i don't think i've ever seen a t. rex picture without it baring. Its teeth right. Which is stunning to think about that. I've never been now. I as i see it. I know it's true. Never seen without its teeth. Being being being shown in how long they are probably ripping into flesh. But yeah we just. We don't show dennis just relaxing. And that's what they did. Most of the time right probably pretty good life. sleepy stan. Sleepy stain rolled out. That's awesome so if you flip rome into the back of the book. There's one more thing that i want to show you this back. Section of the book is actually called all today's and and the idea behind this part of the book is is sort of the actualization of that thought experiment. That john conway asked us to do where you know. You're imagining an alien. Paleontologist from the future is trying to piece together. What the contemporary world. The animals of the contemporary world look like based on fossil evidence. Right so this this fisher and looking at now is a is a mandy but it's a land grazing land. Urban core right read that. Can you read the description. They have their says. A solitary minniti is shown grazing in its mountain home. We only know the skull of this enigmatic or before basically like in this case. They're saying like so this animal. Maybe we only the only thing we ever got was the skull from that. You're trying to make you like. Oh this looks a little bit like a cow skull and it's totally common dinosaurs that the only one little section. It's very rare that we find full skeletons to tell you everything about them but right we totally pick up goal and sure enough you would think that's a that's a cow and even if you do find a full skeleton. There are other things that you could still miss. Total elvin has you wouldn't have a trunk as evidence of this elephant is the snub nosed weird looking thing. Oh my god. Oh it's so true right so like camel. The same way that we don't necessarily wouldn't necessarily know that a camel had had humps. You wouldn't know that an elephant had trunk had a trunk which is such an iconic weird piece of anatomy in the world. it's the thing that you defined elephant by but it's not it's not it's not there and therefore it doesn't live at all like an elephant and it just looks absurd. I i really like it really sells it. Especially with these speculative imaginings of modern animals really sells the idea of it a lot right and they they they go. I like. I like their taxed on some of these. Like if you've read the swans asked to swans are seen their long site like four limbs which they must have used to spear small prey items. One of them has just caught a tadpole one of the mysterious fish of the past. Oh it's so perfect right. So they really. They really embody this. Like this like This this futuristic scientist who's trying to sort of piece together the world that we currently live in now And is making these kind of conceptual leaps from evidence to painting a real picture of what the world actually looked like. But they're still everyone's doing their best. It's not like making fun of them now. Is it just as to with limited information. We have this is what we create right and really shows the limits of that information. Oh it's so cool. It's a good. It's such a good idea to think this way. It dislodge is the iconography from your mind. Be free and you've got to think about him in lots of ways and that's that's really and you really sells it when you see Modern animal depicted in the traditional or the dinosaur. Way that i. I love that aspect of it Nine percent of bisbee was produced this week by fitzgerald in twenty eighteen mixed by a wreath yousef. Music by sean. Rio delaney hall is the senior producer crew. Costa is the digital director. There is the current team is chris. Johnson vivian lay joe rosenberg lage madan. Katie mingle sophia cluster. And me roman mars. We were founded as a project of ninety one point seven kale w in san francisco in produced on radio row which is scattered across the continent right now but is centered in beautiful downtown oakland california. We're a founding member of radio. Tokyo from pr racks. Listen and support. All the podcasts in our tribe at radio tokyo dot. Fm you can see me at room in mars. And the show at nine ib org ron instagram and ready to go pictures of dinosaurs and really goofy pictures of dinosaurs and ninety nine p i dot org radio to after years of telling crime stories. The team who makes the award winning podcast criminal decided to add a new show to the mix a show about people finding happiness. It's called this is love. And i don't want you get the impression that it's about. You know romantic love or romcom love or anything that you might think i might venture into that territory but it's also about the love of a man fooling community into thinking he's a mythical monster feed judge and you'll find brand new episodes of this is love every month listen everywhere.

ostrom Bacher bacher bob barker zone kolstad megan thompson joshua tauber john conway dr robert bucker bob apple yale geology department professor ostrom New bacher bucker John ostrom darren nash
NEW: Frederick Kaufman | The Money Plot

Welcome with Karim Kanji

58:14 min | 8 months ago

NEW: Frederick Kaufman | The Money Plot

"Good morning and welcome everyone and thank you for joining me. My name is karim kanji. This is my podcast. Podcast is welcome with kareem. Kanji really excited that you guys could join me today. Today's episode i speak with author and professor frederick. Kaufman frederick has written the brand new book the money plots a history of currencies power to enchant control and manipulate might sound a tad boring to you but it is a fascinating read. And this is a fascinating conversation so professor kaufman tonight. We talked about barter. We talked about gold. We talked about cryptocurrency in bitcoin. We talked about the gold standard. Just a fascinating conversation And really what drew me to want to speak with professor. Kaufman was just this whole idea of how as a really as a global society. We've all agreed that these coins and these this paper currency actually has value. When really when you take a look at it. Why it has value has really nothing to do with gold because no one's on the gold standard anymore. We talk a little bit about How us president. Nixon on august friday the thirteenth in one thousand nine hundred seventy one basically told the world. Fu we're not going to honor your american dollars and give you gold for. It's we're we're not in the gold standard anymore and so it's like why have we all agreed to this whole concept and idea of money and it's just fascinating so enjoy this conversation and if you could please if you haven't already subscribe i really would appreciate a rating a review especially on apple podcasts. It helps this. Podcast became discoverable by more and more people. So thank you for that. And here's my conversation with professor and author of the money. Plots frederick coffin our you where are you what's going on. I'm doing well We are. I'm in toronto Older yes but not know what. Not as cold as it could be. You know so. I go outside and my face doesn't freeze which which troubles be because it just means that It's coming yeah you know. But everything is good. Everyone's keeping safe and healthy in a new york got vaccinated on monday. Oh excellent professor professor. Fred is that why yeah can't measure. That's why we were able to to i got. I got moderna on monday. Okay i literally did not feel it. I i literally didn't think they gave it to me. Honestly i felt nothing. And then i felt like i had fucking. Kobe can wait after that. There's no no no nothing twenty four hours and then like like i'm gonna fade nauseous. I'm dying my hands or clammy and it lasted like hours. And then poof so weird so weird and then i get the second dose In mock okay. so did. Did you just get jabbed like recently. Monday jon benet. Yeah look at what a week. It has been for not just the country but for you. I'll let me tell you this fucking country you wanted back. What is astronaut us. People of the outside are are fascinated with what happens at you've savages is like look at these savages. Like what are they doing. I know it's like you. We forget you know when people first started observing america. They were astounded at the animalistic quality of these frontiers men in crazies who fanatics idiots like nathan animals. And like. then you forget about it for a while. I've been it comes back and you realize that it's just a bunch of yahoos. Who live here is just extraordinarily that that back election result happened. Considering it's like it's just crazy. And i mean it goes on anyway. Whatever what are we talking. We're not yet okay so not doing the election today. That's that's another book another time. Maybe who knows yeah. Whatever shows a lot of work on conspiracy theory right now. Are you seriously you doing. One that eric identities for the new yorker over the summer. Okay about You know early Early conspiracy theories of the origin of cunanan kaba listrik child molesting a globalist intellectuals who will rule the world conspiracy theory that specific conspiracy theory was first articulated in seventeen ninety seven. Yeah yeah it's it's kind of one of these little known like weird that conspiracy theory come from with. I can tell you exactly where it came from. Its it's fascinating keeps on coming back. That's what keeps coming back. You know come you know. It's not just mccarthyism. Throughout the nineteenth century there were different moments. Where district conspiracy theory. It's always the same. One is the jews and the black and brown people in homosexuals and the the You the pedal files and often the catholics are in on it too. We're in You know that lefties basically the big problem is they want. We want things like women's rights. How dare we yeah. That's the kind of it kind of shake people off. Yeah that that is that is nuts. What fascinates me is that you know one would figure. At least i would think you know as i don't study these things but i would think like art we are. We know educated. Enough artie enlightened enough and shocks me so sad. Is you so sad. It's sided Well anyway that's a discussion about like the education system bears the brunt of so much this. Why aren't people talk better. I don't know he's not really up to like us. You know like. I don't know where it should come from. Yeah yeah if i actually. I just think it's i honestly honestly. I just think it's a very primitive strain of racism. I think kinda bottom of it is fascinating. That's for sure Interesting book as as well. You got the same look at that. Thank you thank eh listen. Thank you so much for asking me on appreciate for no problem It was interesting. Because one of the reasons i got you on it and i wanna i wanna ask you this rid of bit about not the specific currency but sort of the idea of these types of currencies. So a give you a little bit of background on myself So i muslim and Our our sect is called a smileys. i don't know if you've heard of them may be s. Okay so at the end of it. I've heard of the smile okay. Wonderful so There's periods of time in history. There's and there's this one a period of particularly called the fatimid empire the fatimid period I can't remember exactly the timeframe whether was you know what what western historians might call the dark ages. Maybe but Family members of my came into possession of these coins. Ten to twelve th century tend to talk century. Okay yeah yeah all right So we came into possession of these fatemi coins and on the coins would be Not necessarily they weren't necessarily tied to a country but they were tied to the this this group of muslims and anti-2 to their The imam a of that time. And i will and so. That's what sort of juma to your book. I was curious about how these currencies get developed in the purpose. Now you don't necessarily talk specifically about these particular coins but let me ask you so have you. You've seen these. I personally have not seen them. Our family in in london came in possession of literally hundreds of the via an auction. So you're so. As i understand a muslim islam and i i don't i don't. I'm not a student of islam or i understand it The coins imagine do not have images of human correct. That would not be appropriate or yeah. You're right you're right you're right. There would be sort of versus from the koran beyond their. Yeah it would have. The name of the imam would be on there right so. That's what i'm wondering. I'm wondering what what is it i. I think it's i think it's actually fast. This see this is we can talk about this at greater length but this is very kind of aligns very much with what i'm saying about language in money. Let me tell me about the why. Why do these whether it's faith communities or whether it's people in certain regions or certain groups of people Wh- t tell me about that language in currency and things of that nature busted eating. Well i think that you okay. This is kind. i'm just trying to get. I'm trying to gather my thoughts because this is a very big and deep question. And because i'm not a student of islam i don outing off wouldn't would interest me civically about About the coin in this radio thing. This is not a video. Yeah okay so. So what interests me about these twelve. Th century coins is that is that this is a moment in the world where you see the real birth of money culture right that. In fact that that the romans in the ancient world they head their coinage and a they had their banks and they had their their credit. But it's during the medieval here in and also during during the ancient period during the time of ancient rome. Of course talking about which about a thousand years before that there is the you know you could say that sun never sets on rome that it was a huge empire this global right but really are the understanding of money that we have today the idea of a credit economy the idea of a global trade. This all happened right in that moment from the ten to the twelfth century. That's kind of the key turning point that that kind of medieval period when in back all of a sudden you have very large banks. You have huge credit arrangements. You you start. Seeing corporations you start seeing small groups of investors you start seeing very complicated insurance agreements. All of these things back then. Yeah it yeah and the tenth of the exactly and now of course at that at that point what. What's so interesting. is that that particular end. The twelfth century is a fulcrum in a sense. If you look at the year five hundred malice talk about europe should look at the five hundred. The these people who are inhabiting europe are these extremely hail primitive savages a thousand years later. They're ruling earth. These savages all of a sudden are beaten everybody else up and our colonizing and basically taking over the world. So how did that happen because around the year really around the year. Five hundred to about the year. Five one thousand the empire. The muslim empires the The the the opn empires in africa look farther south Farther to the east asian empires and then of course the india. Those are the great bastions of world culture. Not you're not. You're not not at all by as i taped by fifteen hundred all of a sudden that's transformed so of course in that middle period when you have this explosion of international of international trade right. Everybody starts minting coins. Everybody starts mending coins and their minting. It in this part of how we actually even know that history because many things from that period you know there's architecture but almost all the written documents they're they're very hard to come by the coins however last and so we can. We look at what they say. We look receptor is we can date them until we can begin to put together. This extraordinarily complicated set of years you know the byzantine empire. All sorts of history is happening during this period in numismatics. Something something that i had. When i was a little boy at collected coins for fun and then i forgot about it and then all of a sudden i started reading these crazy scholarly essays about numismatics and it just blew my mind because i realized these guys these coin collectors and these collections they'd put together where actually defining the way we understood the medieval period. Wow or anything else and so of course you of your family coins. So it's fascinating to me that that likely they do not have faces on them but they have words on and or this is this is such an essential idea in the history of telling stories and exchanging money. Because my book really is about these two separate concepts telling stories exchanging money and how that actually one concept are. They're actually saying convert project of my book. Yeah with them together and then to follow the developments in each over time so for instance. His story develops from from earliest simple metaphors to epic to romance to novel to postmodern literature. The same oddly enough like bizarrely is is the more i look at it money. Also advances through these through these stages right and so putting a face on a coin is a fascinating notion is a fascinating idea. Why would you put your face on a coin. So we have to look back at the history of coinage to understand why one might do this and why one might not do this. So the other thing we have to remember is that the history of coinage is not the history of money there two years nor nor is it the history of markets. Because there's a lot of money free market right coins really only appear On earth the quaint we think of as a coin a precious metal disc that does not have a hole in them. In other words we see kind of copper coins. That can be strong on deeds. Yeah which are gonna wind of what had been global reserve currency in primitive times which the shells shells that are polished. And then he'd be worn as beads around the body that's the first global reserve currency and then of course after that we have different kinds of money appear such as livestock is money such as grain becomes money egg bright and and of course it yes eggs but i was going to kind of look at the darker side of this slaves our money our money and also unfortunately there is a very long history of women as money as concubines is payment. I spend a lot of time in the book looking at marriage in the money. Arrangements in marriage try and how it's kind of a supplementation wedding ritual is a supplementation of the actually. The woman was the money. Yeah original writing the anyway. But that's a whole part of the whole part of primitive money. Coinages we understand as a precious metal stamp disc appears for the first time between about four hundred five hundred bc in ancient greece. Right in in in in what's called the. Do right in lydia and the original coins and of course this happens at the same time as the birth of tragedy so there are two things happen simultaneously which completely transformed the world. One is the precious metal coin which which really is probably the most successful metaphor in the history of the world. Hey stance or something like that happened or hundred bc and we're still we still. We still believe it like give somebody a quarter right. Whatever invite luck best. What other metaphors last that long. I don't know. I mean an actual thing which we use we believe in and so the first precious metal coin occurs around four hundred five hundred bc and it is made electoral which is a gold silver mixture that naturally occurs in this part of Really this ancient kingdom. Lydia which is western southwestern target today. Okay right and the king. Who has these toys again in king yachties. Nobody's heard this guy's name but everybody's hurt his son's name. His son's name was crease. It's okay you know. The enriches creases right. 'cause if had all the money right but these i precious metal coins do not have all yachties face on them soaring. They had a status symbol for him. They have a symbol for him which is a lion rampant Kind of roaring out with its claws and is only much later in the history of money that people start saying. Oh this is like facebook this way up right. This is the way of communicating and doing social media. And by the time that the romans come around that's all they do everything they do. They stamp it on money in. Send it out because these guys are printing bronzed in areas is it was that roman reserve currency. And the history you can. That's how so much roman history is known is through looking at treaties and generals and emperors and tyrants through the coinage right now by the same token what you talking about here then we come to the twelfth century right. And now there's everybody's making making coinage everybody's coining coins in fact that that's kind of the history of the dollar. The dollar comes from this word. Fowler and those are originally minted in germany in the sixteenth century these beautiful very famous silver coins the that all of a sudden became popular all away across europe. But it's just so fascinating that we have to understand it. The money reflects the culture so intensely and the stories in the more of that culture that the roman money that of course is all about the individual and of course it is tragic. Coinage is the most tragic form of money because you if you look at the ancient world all these emperors. They put their name on the coin. There the great wine and then of course a couple of years later the next guy comes along. Kills them meltdown. All there and a new face honest and he's always. He writes the most ironic and tragic form of money. Again in the same metal is melted down and put the next guy snap the next guy on it. And so in your case what we see in islam is that there is a prohibition against a against using the human form in heart is at right. Isn't it if i if santa correctly and of course there's a there's a great problem which is that. We want to expand our cells through money and expand our culture. But we can't do it personally so therefore we have to use is taxed. And so that's in so what you have is. It is one of the great religions of x. just like judaism is one of the great religions of the tax christianity is of course much more focused on embodiment right in person personal very focused on that and so therefore what we're seeing is. A is a completely different form of money on point that that is fascinating. That is fascinating that that gives me a new appreciation that you know when when we're allowed to go into museums and i look at this. I'll have a Another level of understanding of of that. That's that is just fascinating another interesting. Go ahead go ahead number. Ugo personal story blonde redder. Yeah i happen to work for wait for it. A barter company and as as breeding. I think it's in the early part of your book where you read this. I think i don't know if you you outright sale but it's in there that you would think that barter was the earliest form of currency or something like excetera Voted that correctly. But i think you show in your book that barter even comes after currents i found that fascinating this is. This is one of the great misconceptions about money in the history of money. And it's it's a misconception for excellent reason. And that's because probably the greatest thinker about money. Adam smith created that myth He writes the wealth of nations and is published in seventeen. Seventy six easy to remember that date and he He looking add a nation great britain of shopkeepers and everybody is know exchanging and so of course the him he is looking at this. He's trying to think. where did they come from. So there's well. This is obviously a shortcut to truck barter. Because that's what he sees he sees. Oh this is all about truck in barter. This is about labor and capital. And what we're gonna do. And how we're going to distribute wealth. Where mass what he's seeing so he says barter comes first and then all of a sudden we have a shortcut instead of lugging your potatoes around. Town by some moccasins. You just use this handy dandy little metaphor and everything right and it's a beautiful idea and most people on wall street and bankers and everybody believes it to this day now this is actually been disproven completely disproven and was written about really about one hundred years ago because these anthropologists and ethnographers of the early twentieth century like okay. Let's go see let's find it. Let's find it. And they went all over the earth and they look at all these quote unquote primitive societies africa asia in new guinea in particular. All over and nowhere did they find any barter whatsoever. In each case they find symbolic exchange of something. That looks kind of like money. It looks and smells like money. Even if it's womp them or if it's a feathers or it's a gong or if it's a jar stone is always a symbolic entity that is in exchange news for security used for status so so all of a sudden it's kind of like we realized that only occurs in post currency environments for instance prison prisoner interesting exactly so it's like the we know they understand completely what money is but they are really habit. So now they're going to trade weapons and drugs and cigarettes and that's their martyr or will see it. Also in in war economies like when the currency has gone to hell when it's two billion marks by loaf of bread all the side again. We start trading cigarettes. We start trading shoes right so a lot of people say to me. You know what's the future of money is bitcoin by the crypto. And of course. I i liked you. Can get the crypto later but after that was actually very primitive form of money. We can talk about that later. Caves and extremely primitive form. The actual future of money is kind of more. Like what you're doing is a community based barter form of you know we live together. How i'm the provide you with a cappuccino vibe me with with the shelter. You know whatever it happens to be. It's a much more advanced and much more nuanced forum of social interaction when using barter. So in fact. It's kind of got it backwards. Barter doesn't come first. Barter comes latte. Honor comes last when you run out of the money or there's no value that is ready to realize it's a fiction when you realize that much money. Money is a fiction. It's kind of like this whole idea of will first while this whole notion of the candidacy of injury yang for president right. He runs a on democratic yup yup and tries to become the candidate and part of his platform is universal basic income. Right and of course might might sign. Who's twenty-one universal basic income. i'm voting for andrea. He would have been laughed off the stage of actual democrats in the nineteen seventies of the nineteen eighties. Not yet i mean. He's even farther to these crazy communists but all the sudden this time it's like you know maybe there's something to that. Universal income is kind of like everybody you. We take it for granted that every child has a right to go to school for free actually public education. That new That you know then. There's this idea that that the un has is crazy idea that every child kind of has a right not to starve to death. That there's a there's a right to food you know that everybody should have best not eating steak and eggs every day but everybody should not be starving. Average of a basic food is guaranteed to them that means that were a human culture right like liquids having an ethiopian. Right now the tegray region. I mean these people are waging a civil war by starving crazy gin. And you just it's just. It's horrifying literally horrified. That that's what they're using to bring region to its knees and we can see the great evil. They're so we understand. Kids have a right to food shelter. Kids read to education. Why shouldn't everybody who write the money right. But like that freaks people out like wait a second. What does this mean. Yeah that is what that is. it's what what are you. What are your thoughts on on on basic income. I think it's brilliant. I actually do. And i think that doesn't it doesn't i don't think there's any great evil to it. I think that. I think that there are people for instance. They're real social problems in the world. Obviously people who who really aren't educated and who can't work and maybe are mentally disabled or something like this right Those people need to be able to live in a decent sort of way and pay in a decent sort of way. We're trauma universal income. We're not everybody's a millionaire. We're not saying chicken in every pot every night. We're saying let's get off the street yet. Let's get read and let's try to have decency among us. You know i am not going to ask for my share of universal basic income. Nor would i qualify for my share of basic universal income. And i'm gonna work just as hard and be justice. Ambitious was before. I'm not going to say. Oh great. I get fifty bucks a week and done. I thought so. It's not like the person who's going to actually take. It is a person who really probably needs. It really needs repair for everybody. If they get it. Yeah absolutely. I wanted to i. I've always been fascinated with this whole idea. I'm not old enough to understand sort of the gold standard. But i do understand that there is no more gold standard apparently And so when you take a look at money. That was trying to search for bill. But i got no cash at your cards right and i was thinking are we have. We just agreed as a that vis that these pieces of paper that these coins. Or i think i can't remember. I believe it's in your book that even less than ten percents of money is actually cash. They're just like digits on a computer somewhere yet. Doesn't exist it only very little of money in the world edition physical. Most money is invisible. How when did we all agree that we were all this. It's fascinating because you've got in the states. Two sides of the political spectrum that apparently hate each other. But we've we've all somehow agreed around the world. The follow the premise. That pieces of paper are worth. Something is the greatest fiction ever and that doesn't mean it's not true. It's just. It's way beyond islam and christianity and judaism in into his own like everybody who believes in the dollar. They all believe in the dollar everybody in the atheist or if right it's like it's just kind of really a wide we believe in the dollar and that's a lot of what i'm trying to figure out in in for the past seven years in this focus a bit of that i hope is money really is a story. We're trying to tell ourselves to sense of the world and give ourselves some sort of security moving into the future so that the future makes sense in other just with narrative we tell ourselves story about what we're gonna do tomorrow who we are that partner who i'm living with. Who is that person. We had to tell a story. So that all kinda kate make sense in comes together right and money is the embodiment of that story. A store inlex if you look at very primitive money the earliest sort of money. This comes as i as i point out in. The book is comes from these. These bizarre little beans that were found in kenya about forty thousand years ago there were actually made from a all things ostrich eggs. Yeah why it made m- ostrich eggs while we ostrich has largest egg of any animal. These egg the black neck. Ostriches from africa have eggs which hold out of court and a half of liquid and so obviously these people and forty thousand years ago honestly in the great scheme of things. Ain't that long ago right. These are kind of advanced people. They're making art. They have advanced culture. It's not just you know. They have a groups of families and other people they have. They really have rituals. They have marriage ritual. They have all sorts of funeral. Ritual zima unburied strong sensibly. These are very sophisticated humans. And what they're doing is using these ostrich eggs to hold their fresh water the holder not to hold their berries the hold their fish. It's a form of security for the future. And then what they do. Is these ostrich eggs the thing which l. and contained security for the future when his smashed and made the beads that are worn around your body. This is your own security for the future. This is your own idea that right. I ll be safe. I'll be secure right. And i can also because of that. I can begin to speculate because of course the history and the history of money are very close. Very very beginning. People are are shaken the dice. What's going to happen in the future because money is all about speculating about the future. People always what should be holding chevy pulling stocks or bonds or bitcoin or goal. Or what a spec. What should i be doing in this is all about. That's the basic function of money. What will the future. What will the future bring okay and so money. So what is the future. Let's talk about the one thing we can save for sure about. The future is invisible. That's always that's always been one of the essential qualities of the future is the fates right. The h. are blind right. We do not know what's coming up in the future and so money. Money has always been has a strange connection with the invisible. And so that part of why we're okay with money thing about your. How much money you have in your wall. So maybe i have a couple of hundred bucks sitting over there. And i have some credit cards. But that's not all my money. I don't have money under the mattress. Most of my money is invisible. Most of my money is just shirley. A matter of faith as money is always trust. stephen. I think right bathed trump. That's what it says he trust right. That's money well. What is the dollar because that was the original question. The gold standard thinking about goals is basically saying gold is basically saying this is why you can trust because we got this solid thing business gold thing that you can trust in that's going to be the quote unquote underlying value of this paper. Money and so. This has been one of the longest ranging modern battles of money. And that's why i my chapters is called. Money wants to be free now. That doesn't mean everybody gets money. But it means money wants to be three of any underlying holding it down. Money wants to be as free is free wheeling and his free ranging as possible and the people who know this best of all are the bankers. The people know this best of all the people in finance they are. They love the fact that there is no underlying value to money because when there is something this underlying value money. It's holding money down. It's holding their profits back right so really we. These are not crazy. Ideas of a poet will actually are crazy ideas of poet but the poet's are bankers because the bankers was rated poets all. They're the ones who can manipulate this metaphor metaphor better than anybody so for a long time money has fought out and a lot of the book is how money has been able to escape from goal. How money has been able to escape from gold. And i could go on to seventeenth century in an evil period or nineteenth century and william jennings ran trying to argue that mankind has been crucified on a cross of goal. Or then we can talk about even the craziest today who think we should bring back the gold standard right but in fact the whole origin for the book. A whole reason. I wrote this book is i became fascinated with the weekend of friday the thirteenth of august nineteen seventy one. That was originally going to the entire book. The entire. who's going to be what happened. On the weekend of friday the thirteenth august of nineteen seventy-one intial. Sunday the fifteenth. Because that was the weekend. When richard nixon floated the dollar when he finally disconnected forever from any underlying value What he realized was that there was seven. Timelines the number of paper dollars out there in the world than the united states had gold to cover it. At that point there is a fixed exchange rate. Every ounce of gold was thirty worth thirty five dollars. K this had been This had been put into law or just via in one thousand nine hundred forty nine hundred forty four at the bretton woods agreement. Maybe it's nineteen forty-five check the bretton woods agreement. What had happened was all the european currencies were in the tank. The leroy was in the tank. German mark was tank. The japanese yen isn't the tank. The pound is in the tank after world war two and also during world war two since all the people in europe were freaked out about what was going to happen. They kept on sending gold secretly to the united states in ships. Sending all goal. The united states is a. Here's some gold from france. Here's some more goals from england and the united states all gold. Basically it's holding all there's never been a country that had more goal in the united states in the aftermath of world war two as the united states. Said look is what we're gonna do. We're going to set the dollar at thirty five bucks out a goal and then you can peg all the other global currencies to the dollar. And that's what they did so they saw another dollar was the one steady fixed thing thirty dollars. An ounce of gold and all the other currencies floated at different exchange rates compared to the dollar. The dollar stabilized the world economy at that point but there is a problem. That's how i became the global reserve currency. That it is today probably not gonna last too much longer. But that's how the became the global reserve currency. But there was one problem. Which is that if you are if you happen to be. Let's say the sovereign bank of england or the sovereign bank of germany. You you don't need to hold gold in your vault. All you have to do is hold dollars in your vault because you whenever you like can say okay i'm going to go to the quote unquote gold window right. And i train exchange my dollars for goal and that stabilize the world economy if i had lira on person i can't exchange it for goal and i'm holding dollars as a citizen. I can't exchange for goal. But if i'm a sovereign bank of canada and the canadians were china onto this early. The canadians are on this early. They can the sovereign banks could switch and because the night because of the nineteen sixties. There is there. Is this kind of weird confluence of high unemployment and high inflation at the same time. There's a stagnant stagnation in growth. This is the famous stagflation. Happened in the nineteen sixties in the problem was the dollar was getting little bit. Shakey a the other sovereign nations were strengthening their economy. They wanted to test the dollar. So right around the late sixties early seventies. they started saying okay anyways. Change my dollars for gold casting. The united states and the week before july Friday the thirteenth of august nineteen seventy-one france guy. In england and canada wanted to exchange a lot of their goal. I mean a lot of their dollars. They were holding their suffering banks goal. And there just wasn't enough gold. And the united states knew this. And they're secretary of the treasury john conway very interesting guy. He had been in the limousine. When kennedy was shot even narcotic governor of x.'s. And of course the only treasury secretary united states would eventually go bankrupt. John conley burying your John was nixon's secretary treasury Treasury secretary and he basically said nixon. We got flipped dollar. What you what are you can look we. We got say to these people now. We're not we're gonna close the gold window were done and knicks was like ok. P went on national television on the fifteenth. Any basically said you know we're not gonna dot. We're not gonna dollar anymore. Sorry do you like but we're not doing it. Just like right and it was over. He set it on tv and it was over. There is no law that had passed all of sudden it was clear that the dollar all had to be was story and that story was quote unquote full faith and credit of the united states. And that's all a dollar was an uncommonly famously. Went to all the leaders. Call a group of twenty now at that way it was like the group of eight or the group of ten and he famously stood out in front of all these finance ministers all all the western european nations any said the dollars currency. But it's your problem He has said this quote. The dollars are currency. What's your problem. And they they signed. They signed on. He can do anything about it. It was sheer political. Power there sorry. We're done just a story. It was just a story. yeah. I'm just the story like you believe it or not. You better believe it. 'cause you know you're holding a few billion of you and we're not extend the windows closed. Yeah we're done with that. That is bit. Of course gold of course then starts itself rising in value and so of course. Gold is no longer thirty five dollars. An ounce. no and y you enlighten me a little bit. Why is gold survive. Valuable is just a. Is that another story that we are buying into. Look yes. there is no reason why goal is money literally. I mean why it's shining i think. Here's why gold is money a shiny which is nice right when you hold it in your hand it warms up with your hand and so if you can feel this kind of strange sympathy between yourself and the goal. And that's one of the. That's one of the essential characteristics of money is the fact that it is an extension of the body and so for instance even that very primitive currency ostrich egg right. The the needs come from the egg. They used to be next to the valuable water or berries or nuts. And so there's this kind of primitive contagion between what you are. What your next to the dollars per example this you get some of the target subjects air you put on the doll and so when you put the pin in the dodds in break at this kind of metaphorical contagion right and the same thing with like a form of money. I think we're all familiar with called the crown right the crown. Yeah is it. The coin right. What is a crown. Crown is on the king's head or the queen's head. It's not hard but is next to it right. And so there's this weird contagion between the king and the crown and the crown the king so much so you don't pay taxes to the king you can pay taxes to the crown and this is an essential kind of metaphor in english language studies. It's called this particular metaphor of what we call continuity things being next to each other is called mattamy. Okay so gold is has that kind of quality of you can feel your own of your own body going into plus it's malleable at a very low temperature. So again you can. You can shape shift it and you can make it very early on into the shiny jewels you can wear. When it's close to your body you can feel it. It actually has your warmth on it and sure no matter how much you melt it in no matter how much you heat it it's pure and of course There's this whole notion of its being because this it's very close to ideas. Archaic ideas of god so we have the golden age the silver age the iron age and all right and of course all of these ages. Oh the gods were all gold then then it was the then then. The people were made of silver right. And so there's this kind of weird again. Archaic mythology and story associated with all the different metals. And i spent a lot of time in the book talking about those myths because those myths are fascinating because they are also particularly for the metal gods right there. Tragic these mental god's wanted their own ages and always they get completely destroyed by the next guy that comes along with the silver god right destroys the the the goal and not just kills but completely explodes it and that always explains why they had to escape underneath the earth while while wadis have all been shattered into dust and explains mining and how you bring that body together again and now of course this leads to this kind of other kind of crazy notion which is that That's like a corporate body in other words what you're doing is you're all these little pieces and incorporating them into a larger shore fictive whole and that specifically is is kind of the ancient witchcraft art of metallurgy. When these shamans understood the secrets of flexing with lead. Heating and the alchemist. I've got gold and it was absolutely shocking. That something like this could happen. He would come up with this sure. Golden thing and of course. It's it's guy. I i got this one on one with god going on here so that that's a that's a tough question because gold is gold has been such a force in the human imagination for so long and it's certainly not going away no not at not anytime soon. I wanna to talk about one. More story Bef- before we go but again The book is the money plot by professor. Frederick kaufman a history of currencies power to enchant control and manipulates professor. Frederick bitcoin is it over now is is. Was that just a fad like roller skating. What what do we do about bitcoin. In in all the other crypto currencies so there are thousands right there are thousands of cryptos out their theory in. They're certainly not going way And really if we think about money as liquid. Just talk for a second about craig right so craig right. Is this australian very rich. Man and his doctoral dissertation of unsurprisingly is about the myth and he's an expert in ancient mythography and so he has now said told the world than back under the pseudonym of satoshi nakamoto that he created bitcoin and there is a. We don't know if this is true. We don't if if if craig rightists toshi or not. But we do know. The crowd is worth about ten billion bucks. So you one way or the other his bitcoin. You know a lot of bitcoin and he also said that he has the he has the code for the very first bitcoin and he's any has shown that the press the very first bitcoin. There are a lot of very interesting things about bitcoin which aligned perfectly with the with money myths that have been common ideas about money for tens of thousands of years but the basic idea that makes bitcoin. Money is the idea of it being a coded system coded algorithm so again. We're talking about that dollar. Why is this paper worth anything. Well full of code it's full of full of signatures filigree and symbols and bases and all these things put together aside. What what does this mean. Well it means it's worth something and so that's exactly what is happening with. Bitcoin is this wildly complicated algorithm code. That you have to put in a lot of energy to break right and once you break than you can own it. The other thing that's fascinating about. Bitcoin is in. This gets back to this whole notion of medieval money and how medieval christianity was such a force in the creation of money. So let me let me just elaborate for won miss cleo chaos with we were talking earlier about how money in the form of speculation to try to hedge our bets about the future. Right and of course. The dream of finance is tomorrow's newspaper the tomorrow's newspaper i can go and bet on the horses. Amicable ledge money right. That's the drink so the dream of finance is to know the end of the story before it ends or to know the end of the story before anybody else right. And that's a lot of the work. Is these quads on wall. Street are doing is trying to figure out a way to hedge their bet to know the end of the story before dance well in medieval christianity. They knew the end of the story. The end of the story was the audits right. And these guys knew that there's going to be fixed time in the future. When time was going to end and instead of kind of walking along into vague future they it right in counting forward into a vague eternity. They knew there is ending and so they were actually counting backwards. And so that's why all of a sudden not only bbc all these timekeeping devices. Not only do. The monks were by the clock. Not only are. These extraordinary cathedrals had these extraordinary clocks but finance itself changes and it becomes finance. We know today. I got it. Bitcoin so in other words the idea of a mortgage mortgage has within it. That word more ch- meaning so a mortgage is of course counting backwards. You get a mortgage your house. The first thing you now is the last payment pay this very wreck and that's how money works at. That's how credit works. That's how finance works. That's how that's how you get paid at the end of the hour everything. Everything is done backwards. And it's a particular way of reading that. English professors know about reading from the end of the story towards the beginning as opposed the gain towards the end. You can call apocalyptic reading a fancy way of calling. It is anna goggle. Reading analogical rely on the end to the beginning. Even the word finance. What's the hidden word in their f. I n. been seen in the end. The end finance is the art and science of the end and what happens at the end redemption. You redeem your money off. It's not that it's dawn purpose. This is exactly why this the why financial ravs up during the medieval period because the belief system. You're talking about lease systems. Yes a lot so perfectly in line. So perfectly with the capitalist system at that point again blew my mind about writing this book. The medieval carried the medieval period is really the room where it happens bitcoin. He'd bitcoin is that you know. The genesis block arrives in two thousand and nine within that genesis block is the idea that the end is already defined. The last tranche of bitcoin will appear in twenty one forty. So is apocalyptic it were counting backwards already from the end towards the beginning and that is the excitement of bitcoin. The fact that there's a limited amount is going to be time released that we know in the end is an all time to speculate right. And so it's all about dealing with knowing the end of the story before ends tried to get the security trying to store your value trying to be secure for the future through a particular coated algorithm. This has been the idea of money since those original ostrich egg beads so bitcoin is really nothing. New technology is a little bit different than making etching on beads. It's the vaccine concept. That is amazing. i it's. I'm so glad. I got to speak with you. Because i feel so much more smarter. I wish we could go to bars. So i could talk to my friends about what i've learned like. Why don't we get a drink now. Kareem i hate this thing like well you know next year. Let's talk right next year. We talking and raise a glass extra for sure i. I am scheduled to be new york once a year. Unfortunately didn't happen last year. Don't know if it will happen this year but you know where to retrain. Yeah absolutely the book. Is the money plot by professor. Frederick confident a history of currencies power to enchant control and manipulate It has been a pleasure speaking with you. Thanks so much for for the insights in for the knowledge. Thank you cream real pleasure.

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Wed. 12/30  Apple Loses A Copyright Lawsuit

Techmeme Ride Home

22:31 min | 9 months ago

Wed. 12/30 Apple Loses A Copyright Lawsuit

"Welcome to the tech me. Right home for wednesday december thirty th twenty twenty the final episode of the year. I'm brian mccullough today. Apple loses an interesting copyright case. Get ready to see tiktok in your google searches. Amazon's other business is becoming a monster. Lee tech that consumers did and did not as much partaken over the holidays and of course the weekend long read suggestions for the final time in two thousand and twenty. Here's what you missed in the world of tech a federal judge has dismissed. Apple's claims that mobile device virtualization company corral corallium violated copyright law with its software that allowed folks to run ios on pc's quoting the washington post in a ruling that has wide reaching implications for iphone security research and copyright law a federal judge in florida throughout apple's claims that carelli had violated copyright law with its software which helps security researchers find bugs and security holes on apple's products. Corallium co founded in two thousand seventeen by husband and wife. Amanda gordon and chris wade was a breakthrough insecurity research because it gave its customers the ability to run virtual iphones on desktop computers. Corallium makes it to use physical avon's that contain specialized software to poke and prod. Ios apple's mobile operating system. The judge in the case ruled that carell liam's creation of virtual. Iphones was not a copyright violation in part because it was designed to help improve the security for all iphone users. Corallium wasn't creating a competing product for consumers rather it was a research tool for a comparatively small number of customers. Apple did not immediately respond to a request for comment in the lawsuit. Apple argued that crawley products could be dangerous if they fall into the wrong hands because security flaws discovered by liam could be used to hack iphones. Apple also argued that chromium sells its product indiscriminately claim corallium denied dread. Rodney smith called apple's argument on those claims quote puzzling. If not disingenuous quote smith found that chromium used a vetting process before selling its products to customers. Apple initially attempted to acquire corallium in two thousand eighteen. According to court records when the acquisition talks stalled apple sued corallium last year claiming its virtual iphones which contain only the bare bones functions necessary for security research constitute violation of copyright law apple also alleged corallium circumvented. Apple's security measures to create the software thereby violating the digital millennium copyright act that claim has not been thrown out and quote. So i was already to say this was a dumb lawsuit but apparently companies have won a similar cases in the past around copyright but most in the digital security community praised this result. Let me quote at pony. All the things on twitter quote. This is a big deal for security research in particular but also other parts of tech apple case was an insanely broad assertion. That emulating iowa's firmware on something. That's not apple's own hardware violates copyright rather than covered by fair use. Imagine if. That argument had prevailed that emulation of a binary even for wildly different purposes such as security testing that binary is a digital copyright infringement. Might as well have back named afl to automatic federal lawsuit in that scenario was such a dangerously broad claim if the logical conclusion of your lawsuit is windows being a terms of service. Change away from overnight bankrupting vm. Ware to force everyone to use your and turning security testing of compiled binary into lawsuits. Then sorry you're lawsuit is bad and you should feel bad and quote if you could swear you've been seeing tiktok videos show up and google searches recently. You're not imagining. It is apparently testing an expansion of its short videos feature at the top of mobile search. This will surface tiktok as well as instagram videos in dedicated carousel quitting tech crunch to be clear. This short videos carousel is different from google stories which rolled out in october twenty twenty to the google search app for ios and android those stories previously known as app stories consists of short form video content created by google online publishing partners like forbes. Usa today vice now. This bustle thrill list and others. Meanwhile the short videos carousel had been focused on aggregating social video from other platforms including google's own short form video project tangy indian tack competitor trail as well as google zone video platform youtube which has also been experimenting with short form content. As of late. We've found the short videos. Carousel appears when you scroll past. The google knowledge base box for the green bay packers followed by the scores top stories twitter results top results images videos and other content like a listing of the players standings and more both instagram and tiktok videos were available in the short videos row when clicked you're taken to the web version of the social platform not the native mobile app. Even if it's installed on your device the end result is that google users are more likely to remain on google as all it takes is a tap the back arrow to return to the search results after watching the video and quote. So how might this change the sort of videos that people create now you can create. Seo friendly videos might we see people incentivize create a ton of topic specific videos now and has chris. Messina tweeted quote. Now that google is indexing stories from instagram and tic tac. Can we agree that this is how a digital monopoly empire i by ingesting and building an auction on top of new media. Formats and quote. We haven't checked in on this and a little while but remember that quote unquote other business unit at amazon. It's likely the placeholder for its ads. Business the ads business. The reason that it's basically become impossible to find the product that you actually wanna buy when you search on amazon all those sponsored results and so called amazon's choice results don't even get me started on. How frigging frustrating. It was to try to shop for the kids this christmas. Forget building better google. If you could build a better product search on top of amazon you'd be doing. The lord's work believe me anyway. Yeah that other business. Unit at amazon was apparently up forty seven percent in twenty twenty two twenty one billion dollars in total revenue quoting from the financial times. I don't think there's enough recognition for just. How big of an advertising business amazon is on the way to creating said andrew lipson principal analyst at emarketer. We still expect solid. If not strong growth by traditional standards for google in both twenty twenty twenty one but increasingly amazon is eating into that growth and quote amazon offers advertisers data that is irresistible eight closed loop that shows them how effective every dollar they spend is and more than two decades of insight into the actual buying habits of consumers rather than just their web browsing habits code. I can understand better. The value of a dollar spent on amazon. Because i can literally see the transaction said airi'q heller. Who runs the amazon center of excellence at wpp. The world's largest advises on how best to use amazon's platform mr heller noted. Several studies had shown that people were increasingly searching for things to buy directly on amazon rather than on google for marketers. Mr heller said it was the difference in reaching the person searching for athlete's foot cream rather than why does my foot and quote. Yeah when you put it that way. It really is kind of shocking to realize how bleak google search for products actually is and. It's worth noting how much this really is. That sort of zero sum game that we've been talking about recently. Amazon is eating slices of google's pie directly bear stealing the business away from google quoting again. It all amounts to the foundation to eventually turn the facebook. Google duopoly into a three way fight in just over two years. Amazon has gone from languishing behind microsoft and verizon in the digital marketing space to being a comfortable third this year amazon is on course to command ten point two percent of us digital ad spending versus facebook twenty three and a half percent and google twenty nine point eight percent by twenty twenty two amazon share is predicted to be almost thirteen percent a slow but meaningful encroachment into a high margin industry. Some critics argued that amazon sponsored results were effectively. A listing tax an additional cost of doing business on top of the commission. The group already takes. Which itself was more than twenty billion dollars in the last quarter alone quote amazon is becoming more and more a pay to play platform said beverley from caspian a company that provides advertising services for brands on ecommerce. Unless you're willing to invest in their advertising platforms it's much more difficult to compete and quote one. More thing about tesla. It's a smart oven. Remember we use of all the time and not just for the tavola meals themselves. It's program to use heat and steam to cook exactly like do. The development makes killer toast. We heat up the kids chicken nuggets in the travel so they're crispy not soggy like when you microwave them. I swear to god. Leftover pizza tastes better in the tavola fresh from the pits area. If you like cooking fish or broiled chicken baked pasta bread or brownies. it's the perfect kitchen utility. There are even custom recipes in the tavola app that we use all the time and on top of all of that there are more than seven hundred and fifty grocery brand products that you can use in the tavola stuff from dr prager trader. Joe's to anne's to pillsbury. Where you just scan the upc label on the box and the knows exactly how the cook it no waiting around while your oven. Preheat or worrying about over cooking. Just scan and press start to cook. Your favorite grocery store finds so get the meals delivered every week but even beyond that the tavola oven is the perfect addition to your kitchen. Check it out at tova dot com slash ride for one hundred and fifty dollars off. That's valid dot com slash ride. Double up is an agency that helps content creators create digital businesses with real reliable revenue. Over the past year double up has helped companies influencers and podcasters built millions of dollars value. Double up will dig into your audience data and identify opportunities to grow your business and better serve. Your most passionate fans double up will shape a digital product strategy to capitalize on high leverage opportunities and maximize return on your time and creative energy. Double up will launch grow optimized digital and subscription products to help you realize predictable and recurring revenue. Double up has helped. The likes of sam harris peter attia and rhonda harris create solid businesses with reliable subscription revenue all by serving their fans and communities let double up take a look at your content and your audience and create some solutions to make a real lasting business. Check them out at double up dot agency. That's double up dot agency and when you get in touch tell them bryan thank you let's wrap up with some stats from the holiday period. For example sensor tower says that consumers worldwide spent four hundred and seven point six million dollars on the app store and google play on christmas up thirty four point five percent year-over-year mobile games were the biggest chunk of that rising twenty seven percent year over year to two hundred and ninety five point six million dollars in sales led by apparently honor of kings and meanwhile a flurry survey says. Us smartphone activation. On christmas day fell twenty three percent year over year iphones dominated the top ten activated smartphones. But at the same time budget devices from the likes of lg and k thirty surged quoting flurry. Apple's budget device the iphone se as well as l g k thirty saw the largest christmas day surge compared with the prior seven day average with thirty four percent and one hundred and eighty-one percent increase respectively. In addition the success of past years models notably the iphone eleven and iphone. Ten are may demonstrate that the american consumers were more price sensitive season notably absent from this year's list is the flagship iphone. Twelve many which brings the features of the iphone twelve and a smaller device with a discount of one hundred dollars compared to the iphone twelve however the mini version has yet to catch consumers attention and quote and finally. It is apparently a disappointing. Watch when you actually sit down and watch it but wonder woman. Nineteen eighty-four might have given a boost to hbo. Max apple topa says the streamer saw around five hundred and fifty four thousand app sign ups over the christmas holiday and that's just on mobile quoting bloomberg while mobile devices are just one entry point for customers using a streaming service. The data provides a way to measure traffic. Hbo max total mobile users. Now stand at just under twelve million app. Toby said meanwhile walt disney's disney plus streaming service had about two point three million global installations of its mobile app over the christmas holiday. A twenty eight percent increase from the prior weekend. According to the market research firm sensor tower the pixar animated feature soul which was released on disney plus on christmas day took in about seven point six million dollars in its theatrical debut several international markets including china the weekend will be closely analyzed by hollywood executives and investors because studios decided to release two big films wonder woman and soul on their streaming services on the same day they were released in cinemas wonder woman took in sixteen point seven million dollars in domestic theaters over the weekend. At and t.'s. Warnermedia said nearly half of the customers who have subscribed to hbo. Max directly from the company watched the film on the day of its release and quote time for the final weekend. Long reads suggestions of twenty twenty first up fast company features essays from roquette persad head scientists for who argues that the good old turing test is an obsolete unit stick when it comes to measuring ai. Developments we need a new metric quote while turnings original vision continues to be inspiring interpreting his test as the ultimate mark of a is progress is limited by the era when it was introduced for one the turing test. All but discounts is machine like attributes of fast computation and information look features that are some of modern is most effective. The emphasis on tricking. Humans means that ai to pass turing test. It has to inject pauses in responses to questions like do you know what is the cube root of three four three four seven five six or how far is seattle from boston. In reality knows these answers instantaneously and pausing to make its answers sound. More human isn't the best use of skills. Moreover the turing test doesn't take into account is increasing ability to use sensors to hear see and feel the outside world instead it is limited simply to text and quote. The wall street journal looks into something. I've been wondering about. Actually because i'm old enough to remember when once all my friends to the mccullough family abandoned prodigy for aol. And i even remember when some of your friends ron aim and some run microsoft messenger or yahoo. So what's going. on these days quote. I interviewed five teenagers across the country to learn what nearly a year of living virtually has been like for them a common theme that their choices or those of their parents and even their friends parents dictate with whom they have stayed in touch. That was the case to some extent before the covid nineteen pandemic but it has become starker in the months since many in person. Interactions came to an abrupt end in march. Nearly half of the eight hundred and forty-nine surveyed by common sense media late last spring reported feeling less connected than usual with their friends after schools closed students who had once talked to certain friends every day in the school cafeteria or in the hallway suddenly lost touch with all but their closest pals wants schools. Shut down a must. They happen to be connected on the same social media apps some even lost touch with their best friends because of the technology they do or don't use and quote next a bunch of stories that touch on themes that we've been talking about all year for example we spoke a bunch about cash ambani and how everyone in the world fell over themselves this year to give him twenty seven billion dollars just to get a piece of reliance jio now twenty twenty one is when he's gonna have to start delivering on the promise. He sold quote. Reliance is planning to showcase its lineup of five. G products at next year shareholder meeting which typically takes place sometime between july and september. One of the people said the company is also working with google. On an android base fifty four dollars smartphone part of the strategy to get more indians to use mobile data for services including streaming video online games and shopping reliance views the integration with what's apps recently approved payment system as a crucial step in the development of its online shopping services. The people said the companies are working together as reliance's e commerce platforms look to tap hundreds of millions of facebook. What's happened instagram users. And bodies biggest challenge now is to earn a return on these investments. Said james crabtree author of the billionaire. Raj a through. India's new gilded age and quote and all year turned to ed young in the atlantic to keep me abreast of where we are in terms of the pandemic. I'm not going to quote from it right now. But in his final piece of the year young outlines how he sees twenty twenty one playing out including the vaccination endgame and how the virus itself may or may not evolve in response to vaccines the new york. Times look set something. We've discussed several times. Trump might be leaving the white house but his trade war with china has had many domino falling results including china's recent drive to kick-start a home grown semiconductor industry quote. China is in the midst of a mass mobilization for chip mastery quest whose aims can seem just as harebrained and impossible at least until they are achieved as sending rovers to the moon or dominating olympic gold medals in every corner of the country. Investors entrepreneurs and local officials are in a frenzy to build up semiconductor abilities responding to a call from the country's leader xi jinping to rely less on the outside world for key technologies. Their efforts are starting to pay off. China remains far from hosting real rivals to american ship. Giants like intel and nvidia and semiconductor manufacturers are at least four years behind the leading edge in taiwan still local companies are expanding their ability to meet the country's needs particularly for products such as smart appliances and electric vehicles that have more modest requirements than supercomputers and high end smartphones. The turbocharged chip push could prove one of the most enduring legacies of president. Trump's pugilist trade policies towards china by turning the country's dependence on foreign ships into a cudgel for attacking companies like why the administration made chinese business and political leaders resolve never to be caught out that way again and quote and finally the end of the year makes you think of time passing of life bit of an inelegant segue there. I'll admit but the new york times takes a look back on fifty years of john conway's game of life if you're not familiar with this early attempt at simulation get educated quote because of its analogies with the rise fall and alterations of a society of living organisms. It belongs to a growing class of what are called simulation games. Mr gardner wrote when he introduced life to world fifty years ago with his october. Nineteen seventy column life swiftly eclipsed dr conway's many other mathematical accomplishments and he came to regard his missive to mr gardner. As quote the fatal letter life ultimately became way to popular for dr conway's liking whenever the subject came up he would bello. I hate life. But in his final years he learned to love life again. He narrated a documentary with the working title thoughts on life by brooklyn. Based mathematician and filmmaker will kevin dish explored the deterministic game of life versus. Free will theorem a result. Doctor conway proved with his princeton colleague. Simon coach him. I used to go around saying. I hate life. Dr conway says in the film. But then i was giving a lecture somewhere i was introduced as john conway creator of life and i thought. Oh that's quite a nice way to be known. So i stopped saying i hate life. After that quote as hinted at all episode. I will be taking tomorrow and friday off and there will be no bonus episodes this weekend so we won't be speaking again until monday until two thousand twenty one happy new year to all of you. I love you all. Thanks for sticking me in your head. Every day i truly appreciate each and every one of you my best to you and everyone you care about in the new year. Here's hoping for good fortune and good health to all of us in twenty twenty one talk to you next year.

Apple google amazon Corallium brian mccullough Lee tech corallium carelli Corallium co Amanda gordon chris wade carell liam crawley products Amazon andrew lipson airi mr heller Mr heller
June 29, Hr 3  Former Weld County Commissioner Sean Conway

Mornings With Gail - 1310 KFKA

33:37 min | 1 year ago

June 29, Hr 3 Former Weld County Commissioner Sean Conway

"This is mornings with Gail fueled by Great Western Petroleum, only thirteen ten KFI. Well, it certainly seems like a lifetime ago as in early January, weld. County Commissioner Sean Conway sent his letter of resignation to the Weld County Council in early January effective. January thirty first and well, it did send some shockwaves throughout political search circles joined this morning by former. Weld County Commissioner Schon Conway Hey Shaun. Gayle, it is great to be with you and. You know we used to do when I would appear on your show monthly at traffic part. I can attest you. I'm looking out my living room window. Traffic is moving, but there's no traffic actually so. Drive around! West Lake this morning and. So yes, we, we service all sectors of our nation. We've got the West Traffic Report and we've got the south traffic report as well so thank you for that. I appreciate that okay. LAST QUESTION I! Now you were term limited and you would have. Had to be out of that seat at the end of the year. I remember the conversation that we had over the weekend before this went public. You asked me to keep it confidential which I did, but many wondering. Why did you make the decision to leave the Board of Weld County Commissioners. Well, it was very simple. I put family first My wife had had a spiraling down in her health condition during the month of December of last year, and It became very apparent that you know my attention needed to be focused on her. I was in the last year of my term You know and I just. Just said you know This is a good time to break off. We've now subsequently learned gale and I I know I've shared this with you. privately that she actually contracted Covid, nineteen and somewhere along the line whether it was airports. Greeley we in Nashville for the holidays when things really started to go downhill. But you know, answer your question. I just decided. It was time to put her first and She had put up with a lot. With me, serving over more than a decade is accounting commissioner and you know we just wanted to spend more time together and spend time we I don't regret one moment. The decision I made it has in fine and Her. Health is remarkably approved We went through a patch. with a couple of hospitalizations and a couple of other things but today I'm very pleased. Yeah, what's frightening? I'm very pleased to report that doing very well. Her all vital all of the things that she was battling high blood pressure heart conditions, all of that has pretty much stabilized, and and the most the most reassuring thing is because of of what we've done. Proactively what she's done proactively just tried to be supportive is She's getting off medications that you previously had done on a blood pressure heart rate. Her cardiologists has just said look. You're doing wonderful. And we're at that stage in our life where you don't like a lot of folks. We're entering that next chapter where we get to spend time with grandkids and visit different parts of the country which we've wanted to do for a long time. You know that that proverbial bucket list. We all kind of put together and hopefully what they get together, but it's like I said absolutely made the right decision in. Late December early. January and haven't regretted data decision a moment that is so great to hear, but I need to ask the question. You were first elected. To the board of County, Commissioners While County Board in two thousand and eight reelected again in two, thousand, twelve and twenty, sixteen, always active. In the political scene. Do you miss it? A little bit. You know there were It has been a strange Kale I think all of us. Who if we go back? It was almost another world in January. than it is today, and you see you know with Co visited the black lives matter marches It's really been a strange thing to view I do miss policy side of it, you know. I spent you know more than you know twenty five years in well almost three decades working for members of Congress. Congress senators I was chief of staff. You know, and I kinda hearken back. You know I went through nine eleven. in Washington DC I went through anthrax, and shutting down the Senate buildings, and dealing with all health consequences that surrounded that and we're about our stop You know many of them. Young people who you know we're working on the hill and seemed are literally on a on a evening. We were told you know. Grab your personal items. you know, take home what you need to work on work shutting down the Senate buildings and they were shut down for a couple of months while they you know they sanitize the heart, and Russell and Dirksen Senate buildings after the anthrax. Yet we went through nine eleven where we had a plane. Go down the mall and go into the Pentagon and and and that so if kind of. In terms of what we're going through it kind of reminds me about twenty years ago. When in another capacity as as a member of senators, staff and chief of staff and taking care of people and trying to deal with policy. You know whether that was airport security that was hell. concerns It really reminds me and then you know going through the great recession and seeing the devastation I mean I know a lot of your listeners remember how bad it was in two thousand and two, thousand, nine, two, thousand, ten in Weld County. That we stayed in in foreclosures, businesses restaurants closing down. So you combine those two. It kind of reminds me a little bit about those two things and I do miss you know being involved in terms of coming up with solutions and trying to deal with that and You know we'll see. This is GonNa be I think this will be an election year. We really not experienced. Probably since all the turmoil back fifty years ago, during the Vietnam War and the protests, and all of that it. It's very reminiscent of nineteen sixty eight and. But we'll see but yeah I would be less than honest if I say didn't miss the political side of it. I am you know people call me. On occasion and ask for advice and counsel, and I try to give them I. Tell them the advice is free so You know you get what you pay for. There you go there. You go all right, but here's the sixty four thousand dollar question. I can't help but think you're going to be totally. From Weld County politics and if he can stick with us for another segment would love to get into that. Get your thoughts about what's going on around the country. Just so much to cover, so you can stay with us. He Oh. Absolutely I mean I'm here for as long as you need me this morning. I'm I've got my cup of coffee and I'm. Looking out the window see traffic. built there. You go all right all right getting the job done former. Weld, County Commissioner Son Conway, the conversation will continue eight sixteen, now thirteen, ten Kfi a thirteen, ten KFI K. A. Dot com this time check sponsored by caring hearts home healthcare serving northern Colorado since two thousand one where patient care always comes first nine, seven, zero, three, seven, eight, fourteen, nine or carrying hearts h. h dot com. Sports Story Northern Colorado state in the country tune into the whole show weekdays noon to two and thirteen ten KFI, Kay. Hey, after mornings with gale's stay tuned for the Dan Patrick show the whole show and the herd with Colin Cowherd only thirteen ten Kfi K.. Twenty three now. Ten KFI at thirteen ten KFI A. DOT COM warns regale fueled by Great Western petroleum, live and local. The Auto Collisions, Specialists Studios has conversation. continues our exclusive conversation. I might add with former Weld County Commissioner Sean, Conway and Sean thanks so much for making good on that promise. When you announced your retirement, you said when I'm ready to talk, Gail, you'll be the first one I talked to. I appreciate that. Well I, try to keep my commitments and I remember that. At times very emotional phone call that sad that Saturday never forget it. And It was difficult time there were a lot. There's a lot of emotion swirling around and but you know As I told you when we got to the point where I felt comfortable I've really tried to stay out of the limelight. I've tried to stay out of the out of everything and but you know things. Are you know Rebecca? Situation is improved like I said dramatically and so I felt you know okay. didn't have an opportunity really to You know essentially explain everything that was going on except to people like you and a couple of other close friends and so It's good. It's good to visit with you and I plan to be more engaged now that my my time is more plentiful and You know it's going to be. You know for me to sit out of this election year. I've been going going back to Ronald Reagan in nineteen seventy six. Believe it or not more than. Forty years and almost forty four to believe and I've been involved in every presidential campaign everything else. This one is wild I mean Would you say unprecedented I can't. I mean I can't think of any other time and you don't. Part is a politics is politics. We get that. I mean Marina Bart Maria Barreda Romo on Fox business, saying politics is getting more. Political is a bit of a head Scratcher, but I don't remember ever seeing the vitriol that we are seeing this year. Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty full-contact out there yet and it's You know I'm not. I've always thought that competition. The competition over ideology and participation in the political process is very healthy, but We had a lot of people talking past each other, and not at each other right now and I just talking, they're talking at each other instead of to each other nobody's listening. Yeah and. I. You know If going, it's I A I've been watching turnouts in primaries because you know, I got a lot of time to look at real clear politics and look at the Senate races around the country, which is always been fascination of mine and I gotTa, Tell You, you know in spite of what everybody's talking about about voter turnout. It really hasn't gone out. In fact, it's gone down and I think a lot of people are really dismissed dismayed just the the harshness the negative nece. there seems to be an absence of really a discussion. We have a lot of issues out there that need attention and We're we're spending a lotta time like you said talking at each other Just? Not Listening not listening. Well one of my favorite sayings that I have borrowed from you. Since your departure although I use the word departure in air quotes, because I can't help, but think you're going to be involved in active in politics for quite some time to come i. mean it's kind of what you do. After forty years, but once again we've made it about the WHO, instead about of about the what which was always? Your Forte is focusing while you were a bit of plane, thrower but I. To, focus on the what as opposed to the WHO in the equation. I tried in my years in politics as an elected official AH to you know. There were times to fight for things and I and I didn't shy away from fights. Here's the bottom line I always tried to keep it on the what and not personalize it in focus it on the WHO and I think that's really important. When it whether you're city council, person a mayor State Rep, a county commissioner you particularly the local level. You really need to focus on You know how to better York, community, state and country and I think that's hard. Hard to do when all you want to do is throw things at people and I whole though I am one of 'em Irish, you know that I'm very optimistic is a great group of candidates out there this year that really I think if are successful in the election, process will do a Lotta. Good you know you know in Weld. County in the state of Colorado and and At the, federal level. All right I wanNA reflect back on a comment. You made just a few minutes ago and put a smile on my face. You're you're trying to stay out of everything, but you were always in the epicenter of it all you had numerous accomplishes accomplishments as a well Kanye Commissioner but commissioner, but you were also well a bit of rabble Rouser, so as we are affectionately referred to it on primary election eve today. WanNa talk a little bit about the elections about the. Seats in Weld County and some your endorsements so. Stick with us for another segment. Absolutely supplies your pay with you more with former Weld County, Commissioners John Conway coming your way in just a few closing in on eight thirty now thirteen ten KFI. K. BARBARA'S TO UNC target game coverage lives on thirteen ten KFI. MRIs sports on F. K. enjoy some instinct classics with KF K classics every Thursday and Friday night, thirteen, ten KFI K. and thirteen ten KFI. Dot Com. Well as we try to cut through all the noise and the political quagmire, certainly a rambunctious presidential election years, it's important to remember that well. All politics is local, and those down ballot elections very very important this on election eve. As I like to call it as the Colorado, primary is tomorrow, and you have until seven pm to get. Those ballots returned eight, thirty, eight, now seven or Or I should say seven pm tomorrow to get those ballots return eight, thirty, eight, now. Thirteen, ten KFI may thirteen ten KFI K. A. Dot Com as our conversation continues this morning with a former Weld County Commissioner Sean. Conway and Sean thanks for being so generous with your time this morning, but it does beg the question because well. Little Birdie tells me that you're still registered to vote to in Colorado. I am. I've you know a Well County Greeley Ben, my home for three decades, and so I remain registered here Rebecca I spend a lot of time at our second home down in Merritt Island, which we've had for a number of years That's where she spends shit. You know they swear She you know from her. Health perspective does does best so by you know I'm a native third, third-generation Colorado and love this state I love. It. It's in my heart and you know I when I made the decision in January, my intent was really not to get involved in anything, but as things evolved in people called me and I had already made some commitments to some people before I resigned and so You Know Hey. people call up the. They want an endorsement. They want support If I've had an existing relationship with them or believe they're going to do a good job. I I'm not one of those guys I think you know the scale that Willy Nilly gives out my endorsements. I I I do my due diligence. A base it on what I believe. The person brings to the office or could bring to the office and so Yeah I've gotten a little. In the primary season as you know I've made that public. I've I've written letters to the editor and. You know. I'm I'm quite frankly I'm the house band. Some kind of a base that people are so interested in what my opinion are. Now I think the you were and remain a very powerful political force, because I can't help but think that well. You're not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe from a physical perspective in terms of splitting your time between your home in Florida and in Weld County but I still think that you are going to be viable part of the process, so let's talk a little bit. You know I've always been curious. I've always wanted to ask this because you have built so many relationships. Relationships with so many in the political scene, both on a national regional local level throughout the years and Let's let's zero in on that. Weld County Commissioner at large seat must be difficult. Because some you know asking for your endorsement. I can't help but think that anyone that's in contention would be asking for your endorsement. And how do you maintain those relationships when you decide to endorse one of the other, and it's nothing personal, but this is who I'm going with. Well I apply the same logic to my endorsements do with everything else, and it's about the what and not the WHO in the at large race that you just brought up I am supporting Perry Buck. Perry since I moved to Greeley in Nineteen Ninety I worked with her in a number of things, but having said that I've also worked with Kevin Loss Kevin served on the north. Range MP L. With being when he and I actually supported Kevin's bid for mayor in eaten when he first ran because I thought he would do a really good job as mayor I've had I had an opportunity to meet him when he was on the town or or issues, the bottom line here is i. look at these races, and and all of my endorsements are predicated on the positive side of this I'm not endorsing anybody against anybody in. Expense! Yeah and and I think that's been kind of lost in our body politics that you know somehow you endorse somebody you're against somebody or negative, and that's not what it is, and if you read my endorsement letters that I submit it for and I've only endorsed three candidates and in in this year's election, primary election, Perry for the at large position. Kristie Melendez for the district one position? Powerhouses and see well and I gotTa tell you Kristie If Christie is successful tomorrow, which I believe she will be in in is the new county commissioner from district. One look out. This is a rising star I've known Christie for more than a decade I got to know her when she was on the town board of Windsor. And then worked with her when she was mayor. She was also Excuse me on the North Front Range MTO instrumental in getting I, she and I worked so hard with former mayor us goes from Windsor and the former mariners severance on that well county rogue. Twenty three and three ninety two intersection, which was so dangerous I mean we had so many accidents, and we moved to the West and redesigned it put turn lanes, and that was the I believe it or not gala believe it or not in twenty five years with the noise front range MTO. They'll first project. Actually. Get funded yet local funding from the. The regional transportation planning anti compliment yell and it was due in part to Herat average. She's also done work. She was an original member of highway thirty four coalition, which we're now seeing come to fruition, you had a news story at the bottom of the hour about the improvements on on thirty four that are going on because of our work in getting that. Tell that planning garment on linking study done She's been involved in water. She's a supporter of mask. She been working collaboratively with severance. Windsor and Eton on water shoes. I really do believe that Christie Melendez That's going to be for the next decade. She'll serve for as long as she wants. And she has the opportunity to serve three terms She is going to become a political force in northern Colorado and quite frankly that district needs at. Eight forty five, thirteen, ten KFI K A thirteen ten in KF K.. Dot Com as our conversation continues this morning. With former weld. County Commissioner Sean Conway Your Third Endorsement. Rupert Parchman. I got to meet Rupert and what an engaging articulate just I mean. You can't help if you meet Rupert Parchman, not feel. Put a smile on your face and really know that this guy and what I. Really Look what what I like about. Rupert is also what I like. Christie Melendez she he has signed the front of a check. just like Christie Christie's had her own business. Business Small Business Rupert also is a small man, and so he understands when he goes down to the legislature. What it's like to sign the front of a check and not just the back of a check He's a seriously conservative guy he's engaging e- so optimistic and I, just think that with everything going on down at the State Capitol you need some a breath of fresh air. Air You need somebody in there that just just doesn't bring the old politics, because quite frankly the Republicans as we know, are in the minority in the in the legislature, likely to stay in the minority. Unfortunately until we districting gets done next year and so you, you're gonNA need somebody who you know understands you know what his role will be in terms of trying to bring a perspective that. That many times is not represented down at the state capital, so Rupert's a newcomer to politics. He's a Newbie and he i. I think he again if successful tomorrow and Wednesday general in in November will again be a rising star down at state, capital, and really represent the interests of northern Colorado now some might say Sean playing devil's advocate here that this endorsement is about the WHO. Know, it absolutely is not an end. In fact, I have tried with these three endorsements that I have made to focus on the what you know I. Look at what Perry Buck is accomplished down at state capital. You know I gotTa Tell You as a county commissioner when I needed something I call Perry and. She, didn't get credit for a lot of the stuff. She did upbringing a little just a little issue that maybe people don't know about out there, and that's the emancipation issue that we dealt with with our foster kids for years for years. We tried as well county to allow department of Human Services. As you know, we have a lot of kids in so in Human Services in foster care and when they turn. Eighteen there emancipated, which means they are no longer eligible for those services. Well, any of US had kids know just because the kid turns, eighteen doesn't mean they're empowered with all sorts of knowledge and and and good decision making. We worked for years well Perry Buck. was there side by side with for years? During that paddle? We finally got it done. Governor Hickenlooper signed it into law couple years ago and and because of that we're able to help these kids. Me Perry didn't run around and put a press release out everything else. Transportation People Forget. The Perry Buck and Cook were the people that that pushed the bonding issue on transportation to get improvements to our highway now the voters voted down, but they they were tires lead. Get that option on the ballot. She was the main thing, but most importantly. When when the Democrats last year tried to undo taper. You know Jerry this little plan. Was the leader, not just sitting on the sidelines, and talking the talk who went out, and ran the campaign two feet, and and spoke fought to keep taber which keeps money in people's pockets working families. It was Perry Bucks. She was the person out there campaigning, and was the leader against that initiative to Undo Taber just last year, so somebody who's been engaged in the battle. you know walks. The walk just doesn't talk to talk as they said. said in my endorsement for her in terms of that, but in terms of Rupert's endorsement in Senate district twenty three totally focused on him i. am absolutely convinced we need a new blood. All of us have have served our time. You know the residents well. County gave me three terms I'm very appreciative of that. They gave me an opportunity of a lifetime and I will never forget it and I. Thank them every single day that opportunity gave. All, of us have a shelf life, gale and politics and of US realize that some of the books I come I. I'm a big. As you know. My aunt for a into public service was with Bill Armstrong former senator and he. He is to say that You you the Jeffersonian ideal public service. Were you come user for a period of time you? You work hard better, your community state and nation, and then we turn to the community and I am now and live under. Under those rules and regulations and policies that you enact, and that's the idea that the ideal of Jeffersonian ideal public service, and we've kind of lost that we've now into professional politicians where people you know, just move from one office. You know they've been from. State wrapped to to to state Senate, and then you know state Senate whatever or they? They go from county commissioner to the legislature. We're that that concept of the Jefferson Ideal Public Service is is why I'm so enthusiastic about Rupert he understands that he's going to serve two terms. He's a small business man. He's going to return to his his trucking company He's not going to you know. move up the political ladder, and and I. I think we need to look at that for for candidates, and so that's why I'm engaged in Senate district twenty three. It has nothing to do with the WHO has everything to do with the what and the white is putting somebody down there. That really understands what the end is going to fight for well county not just say they're gonNA fight. And as you always did you always fought for weld, county and I have a feeling former well. County Commissioners Sean Conway this will not be our last political conversation, but thank you. Thank you for your years. You're you're you're intestinal fortitude and your years of public service. To the community, but also most importantly your heart for Weld County and so good to hear that you. You and your family are doing well so until next time I must bid you do, but thank you so much. Thank you for those kind words and once again gale. If you give me just ten seconds I really WANNA. Thank all of those well county residents who gave me the opportunity to serve them. It was an honor and a privilege as I said in my op. Ed that I put out on my last day Thank you I am indebted to you all. I wish you all the past God. Bless Well County and God. Bless the United States of America. God bless you Sean Former Weld. County Commissioners Son Conway Eight. Fifty three now thirteen ten KFI KIA thirteen ten KFI preps radio is northern Colorado's home for the past high school coverage thirteen ten Kfi, a thirteen ten KFI gay dot com, a fifty seven, all sports story in northern Colorado state in the country tune into the whole show weekdays noon to two and thirteen ten Kfi K.. A gratitude. View frontline medical providers don't forget to. Enter to win that two hundred and fifty dollar gift card courtesy of Linda Winter. Ad Excess series with a Flair, inherent downtown, Greedy Greeley. She'll pamper again when you're ready. All you have to do is go to thirteen ten KFI DOT. com to our homepage, and click on that enrollment. Link all right Tanner swint coming your way this afternoon with no co now in the meantime be wild. To UNC bears target game coverage lives on thirteen ten KFI K.

Weld County County Commissioner Sean Conwa commissioner Colorado KFI KFI Senate Weld Rupert Parchman Weld County Commissioners Perry Perry Buck Colorado Weld County Council KFI Rebecca I KFI K. Gail Windsor Commissioner
Jordan Ellenberg

The Astral Hustle with Cory Allen

51:38 min | 4 months ago

Jordan Ellenberg

"Hey my friends. What's going on welcomed gas russell. I am koi allen. You are you in your. We are glad to be here together again. How are you doing today. Help doing well hopefully to fill out there with your your brain inside of your body. And these sounds going into ear holes resonating in creating neural connections and the texture of your consciousness. And there's going to be a lot more of that happening in just a minute. My guest on the show is jordan ellensburg. He is a world-class geometry. Also a new york times bestselling author of how not to be wrong and his new book called shape and which we talk about the hidden geometry in nature in mind In information in free will will interesting stuff. Which i know you'll enjoy and it will give you a least one if not more quality brain stretch. 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These days is really disposable but bombo sox are made so well you know. They're gonna last long time and they've really thought of everything. I cannot recommend enough. And if you'd like to grab some you can go over to bomb dot com slash astro and twenty percent off your first order once again. That's bomba's b o m b s dot com slash astro for twenty percent off your first order. Also while we're in this area if you have just a moment if you could go over and rate the astros on i tunes give that soccer five stars. Just go over there. Click the five stars manifest more stars in the universe of items particularly around the astra. Hustle constellation greatly appreciated. It helps you know because these humans speaking of geometry calculate View and worth and whatnot based on a decimal rooted information into jurors. It does indeed help continue to spread to show and to expand it and bring in awesome guests like jordan elmwood. So let's if you don't mind help me play. Let's all play the human game. A little bit and add some stars at some positive writings and continue to help the show expand across the universe in with that. I find that his time. Let's go let's go talk to the great wise geometry journal. I i think it'd be great if you could help. Person you'll math is one of the things. People have preconceived notions about the kind of my might feel that it's inaccessible or the sterilised. Something like that. How would you kind of just as a primer help. Someone shake off that conditioning. That geometry is something that's and impenetrable. Yeah i mean you know the thing. I'd say i the way i in the book is that we are all doing geometry and i think it will even school kids. I think mostly experienced their geometry class. If take it as pretty different from the other math classes they take can cut both ways. I like to say it's the cilantro math people either. Love it or they hated. They're not neutral like people are like. This is the best. Course i took. This was the worst scores but either way they recognize it. It's different and i think partly that's because you know while the way we teach. It is very formal. What geometry is about is what are things look like. Where are they which things are close to each other things. Those are things our body is built to do right. Our bodies and our brains and we're reckoning that way all the time right. Yeah that's i mean if you even thinking of standing up and walking across the room to do something that's a highly geometric processes occurring exactly like even just right exactly doing that in like knowing where you're going and knowing My wife jokes about this. I'm actually really bad at it but even just kind of like knowing what's gonna be outside if you like. Go out the door like you're inside a building understanding having some geometric intuition for which direction you're facing so that if you walk down certain hall and go outside like what side of the building you're going to be on right. You're doing geometric computation. When you do that yeah so. Do you have a problem with that. Because you're over analyzing or because you're lost in the micro in kind of the macro what's happening well. I don't know if i know. I just know i think that it you know. It's one of those skill. it's one of those skills that i think I always find it funny. Because i think they think of it as a proxy for whether you're inclined to like math while i don't have that skill at all i'm the guy who for instance is standing at the gas station and you know there's there's that picture of your credit card shows you how it's supposed to go in. Yeah okay. Geometric computation is turned that into an actual three dimensional motion of your hand. I i gotta try all for ways. I still gotta try each way until reads my car. That's just who i am. That's hilarious. The usb thing is the cruellest where like you always put it in the wrong way turnaround in there. That's the wrong way. And then somehow turn it back around and that was the right way to begin with can hear me right now. You know. I plug my usb mike and the right way. But i'm not going to promise it was the first time it never is. It's always three minutes. It keeps us in check. It's how our overlords are keeping a secretary. I wanna i wanna get to that eventually. It's a cruel slow slow burner. They're gonna work up to it. You know this is just the the entry point of asserting. Their dominance over us. So what are some other ways. It's really a fascinating to me to. To look at and you mentioned tender buttons in your book which i appreciate to look at what seems ordinary in reframe in a way that is awakening. What are some of your favorite ways to do that. Just with was daily life outside of the credit card slot. Well you know one thing. I write about a lot in the book is about games and then we all do we all play games against each other. Whether it's like a simple game like tic tac toe the you play with your kid or when you are a kid you play against other kids or something you know fancy like chess or go I opening to me to understand the way. Those games are built on the geometry of tree. You look at a tree and they were all used to its name. We see every day This kind of what does the geometry of of a tree. It's this process of one. Think thick truck trunk in the trump Splits off into smaller branches in each of those branches branded off the smaller branches. And so on and so on and so on until you get to the very end. I mean people certainly use that as a metaphor for life in the decisions that you make in your life right you sort of again and again hit a forking path and you got to choose which way to go and then down that path. There's more past but you can never go back right once. You've made a decision you've made it turns out the games you play are like that too. You can think of the idea of playing a game like which i write a lot about As this kind of metaphor for the way you can't go back on your decisions At every stage the possibilities branch off from where you are into the possibilities that you have left to explore until you get to well in a tree. It would be like the twig or the leaf point in a game. We'll be the end of the game where somebody wins or loses which in game theory would literally be called a leaf. We like to use the natural metaphors for things in mathematics. So i read a lot about that both. Because i think it's an activity that everybody does but you don't usually think about. What is the geometry of this game. And what does it have in common with. Other geometry's you know like of a tree or a family tree genealogy are up a river system but also because you know you brought it up this question of humans versus machines. I wrote about checkers. Because it's the story had been obsessed with forever the story of the last human champion of checkers like the best checkers player. Who ever lived. And you know the best workers player who will ever live because now the game has been conquered right. That's an interesting statistic to that's like. Yeah well i was the last one because Like technology has has moved past the human ability to to win exactly and it didn't lose by the way you know. He played the machine to draw a bunch of times and then he died like worn out. No i think that's just like the ultimate g move to just feel like you know draw in. I'll just die no possible where that's the only way. You can't lose as if you die. He was a character you know he was a very religious man and he said you know. He talked about his battles with the machine and he said Jonathan schaffer was a mathematician who devised this program chinook. Which is the perfect checkers player. He said you know. I have a better programmer. Should nooks programmer. Jonathan mind is the lord never lost confidence and classic classic hopping back over speaking of things like that hopping. Just back over to your tree metaphor. You're painting earlier. I've thought about that lot in my life and Really love the. You know the the patterns of nature and i typically look at a bunch of trees blowing i think well there's a coral reef you know just the exact a very similar expression in a similar type of motion and whatnot and also kind of going on a deeper level. I think of trees constantly. I i was looking at one as you telling me all that by the way in your storyteller checks out a tree indeed does that trunk and branches that expand but but seriously like i look at trees all the time i was think about impermanent clear the ultimate teachers of life and death and and the passing phenomenon of mental formation. You know and also organic formation is that they're continuous death and rebirth process in a seasonally. They're showing us that like the the tree continues to leave in has life inherent within it in even note that those aren't the same leaves that are going out of it. Leafing is happening and that continuous cyclical process is really all. You need to know to be enlightened if you look at it and think about it long enough by was loved that about trees. Yeah absolutely you know. I love that you brought up the coral reef because for two reasons one. There's something i mean you asked like kind of like what parts of our mental processes that we don't usually think of geometric art geometric and that's such a perfect example because you recognize that there's something that's the same about the coral reef in the tree right even though reef is not a tree. That's like literally what it is you're like and yet some commonality there. Some kind of like underlying sameness. I wanna point to make not focused on. Whether it's made out of cow site corey i made out of instead of instead of lignin xilin flow him and whatever and yet recognized missing. Structurally the same. So what carre said. Which i think is so beautiful he was. This is one of the greek geometry of the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth century and he was also an incredible affect. I mean this guy could slogan with anybody In french of course but he said mathematics is the art of calling different things by the same name. I love this and it's so true to experience the scientists that You know you wanna say to. Oak trees are the same without literally the same tree but they definitely have something in common in that kind of abstract notion of communist is like how you define the concept of the species which is so important and so you see that and so in some sense so much of geometry as this process of understanding. Which two things can we call the same for the purpose that we have in. Mind when you're thinking what these structures yet totally makes sense to call a tree and a coral reef two examples of this tree. Like than riddick structure. You know what i mean. Yeah absolutely but the other thing just because you gave me so much to jump off of here and again i'm going to Kind of a leap off famous saying appoint garay You know when you see a coral reef even if the organisms that made it are gone you can see that structure and this structure is still there. Important garay compares this with you know when we go to school and studied geometry in the very formal rigid euclid style which may be even remember mum in fact i always ask us hope. It's okay like whenever i've interviewed. I like to interview the interviewer a little bit. An ask like what was your experience with geometry at school. tell me about it well Mainly not paying attention. I didn't i was not i. I got sixty nine point five low seventies all the way through school and then Ended up graduating early Due to some bit of a long story but point is that didn't have a lot of engagement. Let's put it that way. So my experience was sort of like not neither is sort of i suppose Rather purgatory tive in school. Let's put it that way However i had my own curriculum that i was studying while i was in school that that was more interesting to me. Which was the study of music and within. That was which i'd love to kind of go into in a little while of is pathetic rian tunings and also golden ratio in naci sequence how that related to music in mozart beethoven or bach correlates their their work to those geometric structures so that's sort of my relationship with mass in highschool. But you know you did. I mean you found it. What's funny is that. You found geometric things to think about in order to avoid paying attention. In geometry class could not be more typical and by the way of course neurons. I listed all those things at the structure of trees but forgot to talk about neurons. Which i know that you like of course. That's another wonderful example of something. That is fundamentally tree. Like totally in nature these narrow structure before we go there. Because i want to finish this up to a point. Carre said is that if you look at this very formal kinda dusty structure of euclidean geometry in proven fact about a line in a triangle or whatever which for many kids is torture all the many kids love it too. It's it's A lot of individual variation if you look at that very formal thing. It's kind of like looking at the skeleton of a coral. That's no more on the one. Hand that on the one hand if you look at that structure and don't recognize that there was some living animating being the created it. You're missing missing. The point of you look at that formal structure of school geometry and don't recognize that was built as a skeleton for some very rich world of geometric intuition that certainly could happen like every other geometry has always had they were trying to like really understand this very physical reckoning we do we do with space objects in space and how they work. You're missing the point. If you don't see that on the other hand that doesn't mean you should justa forget about the formalities. In just kind of do things intuitively because you know that sequencer can't survive without skeleton. There's a reason that builds it the structure is there for a purpose so the kind of living animating spirit and the rigid kind of dead skeleton. They both have a role to play their. They're in tandem like neither can really survive without the other. Yeah that's really interesting in just kind of going extending the idea of Overlapping patterns in nature. Is this something that you are drawn to naturally. Do you find those those or look for those just on a daily basis or yeah i mean you know the world is what it is. You gotta remember the lake. Get out of your chair off your laptop and go look at it sometimes. I can't say. I do it every day but but i like anybody else you know you find you find inspiration there you go to find some sense connexion just like letting yourself absorb those things do you going. This is a topic that will interest. Me is like animal. Aggregation is that you ever look at that at all. That's just on gm geometrical level to a fascinating just animals. I mean my son's really into birds. These days will actually allow literally for the first time in my life. I now know what some of the different kinds of birds are called. I just you know. I was always one of these people who was like well. There's like the little brown ones and then there's the larger black ones and that's what kind of birds there. Now i know what i now crackle is. That's my incredible evening of the week. If you would have moved to austin you would really known her but But yeah flocking is incredible and actually. I know i can even tell you who used to invite on if you wanna talk about like mathematicians who a big part of their career as like studying flocking behavior. Because that's literally there's whole conferences about it. It's amazing You know what. I love about that whole story and it's not a story i've done research on myself so i'm a bit of an amateur also but you know you have this very complex large scale behavior and it's not because there some like all mind that's planning it right. Each bird has like. But i'm not trying to insult birds but like a pretty limited cognitive capacity assist the fact about birds. I think just a bird outside. Clutch pearls in grad. I know bird. Twitter is going to be like really mad at me now for saying that but like a lot of tweets yes okay. I didn't do that on purpose. Each but each bird by following. I mean we understand. Now that lake will whether it's a bird or like an abstract entity sort stimulated our computer by following like pretty simple rules only involving the birds that can immediately preceded nearby it Those rules followed by individual actors can turn into really complex and interesting behavior on the part of the whole. You know one thing. I do right all about in. The book is the so-called game of life. I don't know if you've ever played with this before constantly constantly said i'm just making a joke but yeah okay i don't. I don't remember what it is. Please please share. What sort of grandiose name literally. This is what it is and originally this was people did on pencil and paper You have some configuration of boxes drawn on a piece of paper and then there's a rule saying a box survives to the next round if some number of its neighbors or filled in and if not it dies were boxes born an empty space. If some some condition on its local neighbors At otherwise not sort of carry out this rule and make these like see what happens as time rolls on different configurations of boxes on the page changes and This this was invented by fellow called. John conway who was a great mathematician but also a great game maker. He had sort of incredible spirit of play. And you know he died of covid last year. Unfortunately i wrote a bit about him in the book but this game of life produces the most remarkably complex behavior and in fact people have figured out that from this very very simple rule which only involves boxes on the page being able to sense the boxes that are right next to them and bank. Some simple rule to say whether delivered i. It's basically what's called turn complete. You can carry out any computation. A computer can compute can carry out. You can do using some configuration of boxes and running this simple rule of game of life role so it is really captivating. There's a wonderful paddock called. Golly actually which runs very fast which you can play around with and sort of see this game go and i think it's almost Once you get used to it it stops being amazing that very simple rules carried out locally without a lot of individual complexity can create incredibly complex behavior stops being surprising into starts to seem like the natural way that the world is Yeah i really love the in music. Like particularly in first generation minimalist music. Terry riley steve reich glass la young four grand grandfather's godfathers the early rule setting composition. Where they kind of through a lot of the traditional approach is out the window and said here's a few a few written instructions or a few modular pieces of score that than have written instructions in opens up really infinite music because it's almost fractional on his perpetually reemerging from itself in new ways yet with a familiar structure that has not only you know enjoyable on the ear but also works no matter which ones you place next to each other like one of the funniest and best ones from will might young which is like i think the first minimus piece in modern american music was draw line and follow it. That was his composition. That was instruction. But you know if if ten people do that you know. It's going to yield as you said infinite results which is fascinating and the point kind of remind dino dino dennis johnson the composer dennis johnson who was also part of that scene. Yeah there yeah that rings a bell. I only ask. Because he's actually very famous mathematician. He was a great depalma. Gist and i only much mum. After i'd like you know. Spend a lot of time studying his research into policy and using his results in my own. Work tha petitions. He's well known as a mathematician. But then i'm like oh Out in the world is much more known as minimalist composer and they don't know move theorems in geometry. I mean it's amazing. What you said this. Draw a line and follow it. I didn't know that bad slogan actually but Does it remind you a little bit of those oblique strategies cards use. it has kind of flavor. Yeah and of course brian eno. He kept on coming up in the book. Who knew. I was going to mention brian. He knows so many times when writing a book about geometry is certainly not plan it that way but now yeah he so he's named coming up and he was a huge fan of the game of life. This this this computational game developed by john conway told you about it. You know saw it a demonstration of it at the exploratorium in san francisco. The science museum there sometime in the seventies and apparently just became obsessed with it and you can see right that it sort of matches the kind of thing. He was interested in as a musician. I think he was quite startled and charm than excited to sort of see that this was already going on petitions. Yeah yeah that's really fascinating in indefinite. He's of course the for anyone. Unfamiliar the person that pretty much invented mon l. ambient music in the world. I think some people argue that Eric city was the first ambient musician who is a french pianist. You'll you know if google works. They would recognize them because quite famous. But they're you minimal and floating in and modular nature but But yeah i mean he knows interest in that in in the i ching and so forth and which all i i believe a emerged from john cage and john cage. Yeah absolutely. I figured as much as i answered that just by being silent the idea would if you were silent for four minutes and third of the reset consists would be my favorite podcasts. Have all that. That isn't good gas leak right. There actually always joke about wanting to do a full silent podcast. But i know that only i would probably enjoy. There's these what am i feel like. A lot of people know cages. More sort of. I guess popular pieces but one of favorite ones is this a. It's called empty words. Think and he basically took you know he was into poetry and so on and he he went to italy and intentionally chose italy and did a live performance. That was him reading these like. I don't remember who author was but on those Very a an appropriate selection of course but he wrote broke apart all of these poems into their syllables and so he gets on stage. And he's like okay. This is going to be a three hour performance or whatever and in his little quiet calm voice just started reading the syllables but really slowly. So he'd be on microphone fallout and he'd be like pro shah for like three hours and so what happened was a well actually. This'll be fun. Can you guess what happened. This largest editing in one thousand nine hundred seventies ille- john cage to and wow. I don't know people started to smoke. I'm gonna try to what the audience would have done. So i've i we ban situation. Well okay we'll look. I know what i would do. I would start thinking about math. But that's probably not what we do. So basically people started getting a little restless at first a little. You know little fussy. Just moving around fidgeting whatnot then slowly you could hear people kind of getting up moving around some people leaving them. Everyone starts smoking and then people started kind of talking amongst themselves a little. But then some people started heckling. They're like what is this is ridiculous you know. Come on and It devolves into madness like someone ends up running on like people were yelling and screaming and throwing things into an runs up onstage and grabs the microphone like yelling. Imminent italian like the. You know anybody's berating him and cages. Still calmly like you. All his meditation practices paying off calmly reading but the whole like to show. How if you create this type of open. Space in unfamiliarity the tension of self awareness in unexamined. Mind will lead to that type of i guess confrontation nothingness and so he's his piece was playing the audience and like they're human group nature of reacting to something that seemed vail joe instrument. Yes exactly. what's crazy is you're not going to believe this corey. But i've been john cage in that scenario like little. Did i know memory. I haven't thought of a long time but you just brought it back to me once in college. I don't know maybe. I'm dating myself here. But people make announcement. There was no email list right. Sort of like stand up on the table in the dining hall. And you'd bang on a glass witherspoon. 'cause you're gonna make an announcement you wanted everybody to hear you know. You took a bang spoon. Get pretty quiet down so a friend of mine. I we just got up on the table and we bank glass. Witherspoon quieted down. And then we just stood there in silence and didn't make an announcement to see what would happen. And it's exactly as you say that kind of like at first polite attention and then restlessness. But i mean i didn't know i was doing an experimental music performance. Maybe i was. He didn't have it. We didn't have an exit strategy. I was there for a moment. Thought about what the end was going to be. But just as you say when people started to throw things which in this case was like dinner rolls. I mean they were soft things then we just flat we were like we should have thought of a way to end this and we hadn't but i don't know what it's interesting question like. What cage thought. The end of his piece was going to be well physically. See as we. Once the roles started flying we were gone. I think knowing him the whole the unknown of what would happen. Next was just as much a part of the performance on his part as the audience like he wouldn't have any preconceived ideas he would be reexamining. What is consistently and continuously in accepting and then just flow using his then in kind of dow nature to respond. I really did it. Exactly right is basically a cover band. That's that's brilliant. Yeah so okay. Getting back to mass known please. This couldn't really ask for anything better to speak about so talking about you. Talk about your book about how Math in free will are connected in the sense that Prep statistical measures of human activity. Can kind of begin to point to some potential cigna fires and may be speaking out of school here but on agency human unconsciousness agency. Could you go into that and expand. Sort of what the landscape looks like. Absolutely you know because it's a really interesting and rich and fills up deep and pretty old tension. That's the thing a lot of things that we think. Oh my gosh. This is that we got to think about now in the computer age. No people were thinking about it one hundred years ago two hundred years ago if it issue is philosophically interesting. It's probably not that new. Maybe meeting it again now but it's probably been there for hundreds of years. It's been known that there were statistical regularities in human behavior. You know both biological things like you know percentage of male and female births but also you know like dates of first marriage or like Statistics of just like what professions people go into and things like that of course they change with time but in any given moment they're like pretty stable they move slowly and you kind of know that like any individual person you know when they're going to get married because anything can happen but if you have ten thousand people in town and you look at the averages and you look at the distributions you can make pretty good guesses in advance without knowing anything about the individual people How the statistics are gonna look at people. Find this very troubling historically. Because they're like what are we just machines. I mean the fact that you can analyze beings human behavior. Statistically the same way you. Can you know what happens if you toss a bunch of marbles down the hill that's troubling to people you can see why right. Oh sure yeah sure yeah. Please proceed and and so you know. One thing i write about is this Is this fascinating. Dispute takes place at the beginning of the twentieth century in russian math. These folks all cared a lot about probabilities. All understood the probabilistic underpinning of these statistical regularities very well But the battle is being one school of math which was like fervently atheistic and another school which was deeply deeply conservative russian orthodox and the more cherchi mathematicians led by this guy pablo alexai Cross off basically. He started in the viewpoint that people can't be robot because that's incompatible with church doctrine. So we know that can't be right so we have to solve this puzzle. That math seems to say it's so you know if math in the church are going to fight. Then the church has two wins. We gotta but of course if you're a petition you also don't want math to lose so you work very hard to find a way to make it compatible and so the crossover a very inventive idea. He said you know. Here's the paradigmatic example of statistical regularity that that which is you flip a coin you flip one hundred times now. It could land heads one hundred times right if that's not like physically impossible but it's also very unlikely right. You're that's probably not what's going to happen. Probably it's going to be pretty close to fifty percent that's called. The law of large numbers was already by that time the very old and well established mathematical principle laid out by jakko bor newly only because my synthesizers. Okay i'm going to ask you in a minute. You just said but but you know we're not coins and we don't wanna be coins but what's interesting. Is that a fundamental tool that brignoli uses in order to prove that the arm is the coin flips are independent from each other. Like when you flip a coin it doesn't know what how the coin landed the last time If it did you might get wild right. If the coin was constrained always land the same way this time as the land of the last time. Sorry if the coin was constrained to always land the same way this time is atlanta the last time it's not going to be fifty fifty because if the first ones heads they're all gonna be heads. It's an across was like okay. I win because the fact that you see this statistical regularities that must mean that people are actually independent from each other the way that different coin flips are independent from each other like bingo. Like we prove that there's free will. He was very excited about this. He wrote very very long papers about it And it was an incredibly inventive idea. That unfortunately was completely wrong. And i think it's wrong and that we don't have free will. That's a bit above my pay grade. But he was wrong and that he'd sort of ran everything backwards. He said well if the coins are independent from each other than they settle down to these nice statistical regularities so since we see the statistical regularities for human behavior. We must be independent from each other. His enemy markov. Who was the atheist in this scenario said. No that doesn't fly. He said yes. If the coins are independent they settled down to nice regular behavior but could also be not independent in a certain way and settle down to nice statistical behavior. That was what markov showed. And that's when he invented the so-called markov chain this fundamental probabilistic tool And it's kind of amazing. Because i always say like it. In my experience there is almost nothing more intellectually sterile than an like an argument between dug in atheist and a dug in religious believer right about religion like arguments are extremely dull in general. And yet this one time right to created it was the impetus for the gration and this incredible mathematical theory which markov invented basically the sort of show showing across all that his argument was not going to work. I like that within itself is a great probability equation. Like how many discussions between a stringent atheists. And a a very emphatic. Religious person have ever resolved anything meaningful. Exactly so this one time that's the can happen. It's very improbable. Wow they literally. They flipped heads one hundred times essentially but i think what's cool and the distant descendants. Well they're still markov chains the distant descendants of the kind of a tiny markov chains. The markov himself developed You know and i thought of it because he would do things like he would take a famous poem like eugene nagin and just like Just like cage kind of said. I'm gonna break this poem up into syllables empty words and sort of just like say them. Very slowly What what mark off did was pushkin's poem said. Look i know it's a poem. i know. there's like metaphors and images and stories in. I'm going to treat it as a sequence of consonants vowels and try to understand the process by which you know after continent. Are you more likely to see. A continent were avowal and how often and how end after vowel. How likely are you to see a continent or a vowel. So he was doing much like what caged being like. I'm going to sort of boil this thing down and take out of it a lot of what you think of making it a parliament. See what's left. Is there anything left. And there really was doing this. Consonant vowel analysis. Mark that you can tell the difference between different russian poets just from that says something of their style is somehow left amazing. Wow don't know calling it. Style is exactly correct some kind of signature so to bring it back to your question about free will the descendants of those kinds of that kind of analysis of text. That markov pioneered Are you know engines today. Look neural nets that are trained. To produce english like tax to can produce large quantities or it can produce it in short quantities. Like it does on your phone or when you're typing your g mail and the machine kind of jumps ahead and predicts the completion of the word you're typing or the next couple of words you probably have that on some email program that he is right over sure. Yeah how does that make you feel about your free will. Oh i welcome. Our ability are predictable overlords because really it just it is to me like it just feels exhausting to be dealing with so many messages in emails all the time and so the amount of time that i can just tap the predictive text and not have to actually type. Something out is is good for me. I'm not gonna man. I'm not gonna that my identity or with what if it's something that's of course. I say precise if necessary. I say what i need to precision but in the event that it offers up the word that i would like to say next. I'd much rather tap that than type. It out no i spitefully type something different. That's what i was gonna say. I appreciate it. There's really no other option than i. Type it out justice. Bite the machine. I appreciate that a lot actually. Yeah i even tried to write something just using predictive text like pull up your phone and just like just only use. What's predictive try. Make a sentence. I have played with that. But i but you know. The predictive text on the phone is usually not good enough. It doesn't have good enough. Long range sensing meal to make sin tactically meaningful things whereas an engine light. Gp or she. three. I don't know if you've ever played with these on there's various online of them They're very cool. They're much better producing tax. That actually reads incomplete senses and has a kind of eerie feeling of human is. Of course the more you play with the more you see sort of what aspects of humanness It lacks But it's very cool to see it go and also very cool. I mean so. I i write in the book about tried to sort of demystify a little bit like what is going on with these neural net engines. That can seem like magic but in factor in some sense. Like some just like very computational intense very high dimensional game of trial and error where you're literally just kind of like wandering around the space of all strategies for producing english taxed kind of constantly checking yourself against this huge corpus of the english language that you've stored in some mega server somewhere and sort of seeing how well you're particular strategy. produces tax that matches the tech. Steve already seen your thank. You could just map that right over to humans in totality where you described. I can't remember precisely what you said. But something to the effect of wondering through a bunch of kind of strat. Strategic scenarios in the darkness resulting in computational results of decision making based on context right because that is what we do when we learn right. We are like very very good trial era machines. I mean there's some things built into us but not maybe not that much. Maybe what's built into. Us is the capacity to do trial and error in kind of our strategies based on examples of things happening that we've already seen so from someone who has a an a deep understanding of math and geometry looking at the idea of the framework of math. Being able to point to free will or not. We'll have what's your intuition. Even though i know mathematically those are often wrong but what you're into it according to common anyway. What's your intuition on on that does does it does seem or feel or into it. That that there is three wheeler compatible. Ism or how do you come out of that. I think what i'd say. But the thing is i think my views on this. I'm not sure there might be used as mathematician I kind of think that this is an area where math might be somewhat silent you you hesitate to say that because like maybe somebody will like come up with like a brilliant idea but i would say the the attempts to make a mathematical account of what you might call a free will or even of consciousness has been to me not fully satisfying on the other hand. That's what you would have said a few hundred years ago about like can math talking sort of purely by medical way about randomness or about the infant. I mean those used to be things that were outside the bounds of math. And you know math through figured out a way to get there and sort of encompasses so never say never. I would only say not yet i. I don't know if you okay. Let me to another question. People often ask about whether mathematical objects are real or not. Whether whether they're real things or whether they're just like invented concept. I would say there's an argument that you know. The number seven is like not a real thing in his invented concept. But i think there's just as good argument that like a frog or a mountain is not a real thing or is invented concept so i think they roughly equal status and maybe in the same way when you ask about lake even talking about free will i feel like presupposes that there is sort of a sensible notion of like. What's an individual mind. That's having the free will right. Must not so clear that might be a convenient fiction. That's okay. I have seen in a to me. I would think that the deterministic argument is pretty math. Based and i'm in complete math novice but thinking of looking at just the causal nature of the physical universe resulting in the position of your neurons which therefore don't really allow you to choose. Otherwise as as they say almost seems like you could draw the same structures tree. It's all just like unfolding into pathways. Which have the illusion of a chance because we exist within the system of the universe as opposed to part of it so since we're immersed in it it seems as though we have agency but really we are just another branch growing out of the fractional of. What's come before and it's just expanding getting more complicated and complex over time while you know what since you brought it back the trees. I'm going to sort of follow up on that. A little bit because one thing i thought was really interesting. I knew this story of the great checkers champion. Marion tinsley and how he was eventually. Lena lost his championship to chinook the computer But i hadn't until. I was writing this book in researching it figured out what happened after that like what happened to checkers after that. And that's an interesting question because checkers as a game is now solved with that. Means that we know we have a mathematical proof that if two players don't make a mistake the game will always be a draw. The first player literally cannot win. The second player makes a mistake in the second player cannot win unless the first player makes a mistake. Now if you have if you sort of take like a very deterministic view you'd say well then. Why would you play checkers. You know the the game song you know that a player can't lose but you know what people still play checkers people's a lot of tournaments people's championships and you can say all you want but the outcome of the game is determined unless somebody makes a blunder. Like what meaning. Could there possibly be in doing it. Well i think in the end math doesn't get to tell you whether you find meaning in something or not. People will still play checkers. Even though the outcome of a perfect game is determined and the truth. Is that the outcome of a perfect game of chess and the outcome of a perfect game of go those those have mathematical answers to. We don't know them yet. Have we might not know them but there is an answer as to whether to perfect chessplayers whether the first player will win always the second player will win always or it's always a draw right because as you say the tree is what it is. The rules of the game are what they are. They're determined the tree of the game is what it is. It's determined and so there is an answer to what the outcome of that game is and if we ever find it out guess what people are still going to keep playing chess. That's what i think anyway. that's a good Similarly yeah because the purpose of a game is not necessarily to win. You might feel like that's the purpose but I think the purpose is somehow understand something. Yeah mommy everything that we do not to go down deep rabbit here but seems to everything that humans do is somehow doing a thing to have some residents to feel a sense of harmony was their own self awareness that they are conscious right so you even taking that to a bit of more fine shave down a little bit to where yeah one one place. Because it's the playing that is fun. I mean just listened to right if anyone wants to hear that more. Just listen to al any l. and watts lecture and he talks about that constantly. You know it's the point of music was to get to the end. all pieces would just be big cymbal. Crashes and they'd be one second long not be one thing you know you talk about our ai. Overlords and one thing i write about is like well. What would it be like if computers could answer the math questions that we're interested in you know what i mean. I i sort of talk about a thought experiment. You know what if all of our conjectures that were like are they toured boss. A machine could just tell us a approved. This it's true. What's the proof. Well is this kind of like billion character string of symbols like no human being can understand. But it's over it's true you know we wouldn't care that would not affect our lives at all we would still try to prove that theorem. We would still think about it. And the fact that some computer had verified that it was true would just not be relevant mathematical lives because our mathematical lives are not about. What's true and what's false contrary to stereotype. It's about understanding stuff. It's about understanding what the world is. And if you had an absolute oracle that could tell you absolutely verifiably and reliably what was true. And what was false. That i mean that. Would maybe that would help you understand certain things but that wouldn't be understanding. Yeah that's referencing common against interesting l. I heard an interview him. And someone said you know after studying a thinking fast and slow intuition versus the statistical analysis for your entire life winning nobel prize. How has it changed your day to day behavior on your intuition verses statistics to make different choices. And he's like oh. It hasn't really changed a way man. I thanks for coming on the podcast. You're awesome your book is really great and really fine. All the drawings and kind of graphs and graphs sounds a bit too cold graphics graphics and what not make it really find engaging and this is an incredible minor research and care and love veneer man so we talked about a lot of heavy stuff on the podcast but the below. The book has heavy moments. But it's it's light too. I hope it's meant to be light. It is yeah. No that's that's that's his podcast light and heavy chain name could give you that gory. All right thanks man thank you.

garay john cage koi allen jordan ellensburg jordan elmwood Jonathan schaffer lignin xilin mozart beethoven la young corey dino dino dennis johnson Eric city astra astros carre vail joe rian Carre chess
Reparations For Police Brutality (UPDATE)

Planet Money

31:07 min | 1 year ago

Reparations For Police Brutality (UPDATE)

"Hey everyone. It's Mary. Child's a few years ago. Our correspondent Noel King did a show about police brutality on reparations. It originally ran in two thousand sixteen. We will have a short update at the end an just before we get started a quick warning. The story does have graphic language on depictions of police violence. Okay, here goes. Is Planet money from NPR. November, second nineteen, eighty, three Darrell cannon was home in bed on the south side of Chicago and he woke up to this loud. Bang Bang Bang at the door anytime. You just banging like that. You got to be pleased. This was not Daryl's first run in with the police. He'd served time before the cops rushed in and Darryl thought I should hide, so he jumped into a closet. How did you hide in the closet feud in the closet and put clothes in front of me? and at first they opened the closet door. And then he left the door open. He thought I wouldn't and then another one of them happened to move closer to San. Now was, and there was the cop he had a shotgun. A, he jumped back and pulling the shotgun me. Michigan MC hand the COP cuffed him, and made him lie down while the other cops tossed his house, looking for guns. So now Daryl's there on the floor and he's looking around and he's watching his cat freakout. His cat's name by the way is killer killer up, do all. These white bulls geared the living daylights. Hilo runner where. When they were done searching the cops frogmarched daryl downstairs and put him in the back of an unmarked car. They told him a man had been murdered and they thought he had something to do with it. Darryl had been through this before, so he knew the routine, or he thought he did at the police station. They parked him in an interview room, and then after a couple of minutes, a detective walked in. He had Brown paper shopping bag. Any pulled something out of it was about two feet long with prong sticking out. That was my first time seeing the calibra a cattle prod. He say you going tells we WanNa know. And I looked at him. Saying He's okay you talk for days. Oh with and he put the car pro back in the bag and walked back out. Hello and welcome to planet money I'm well. King Today on the show, the story of Darrell Cannon a Guy He'd be the first to tell you. He broke lots of rules back in the day, but then the people who were supposed to be enforcing the rules broke them even harder. The city of Chicago is now trying to make up for it, but it's not easy. There's no roadmap and what really is enough. Has a TIKTOK. She remake win for like for like the appearance who don't understand Tiktok Pass Doug. Economics, Tiktok. It's the platform. Your kids do not want you to be on Tiktok. No seriously. TIKTOK. Comedian Nicole buyer doesn't consider herself body positive. She just accepts herself as a hate that there's a name for like. Hating part of who you are. Do you know what I'm saying like? It's insane Nicole buyer on her new book. Fat Very Brave, and how to love yourself to a minute from NPR. Here's how Daryl wound up in a room with a cop and a cattle prod he grew up on the south side of Chicago is a pretty typical kid. He's a really big Elvis Fan. He went to all of Elvis's movies I. Like them because with the girls. Every movie that L. was has ever been in. He has some beautiful women around him whether it was an Margaret or somebody else, he had to be a little careful going to the theater because the south side streets were carved up by gangs. was actually in a gang himself. He joined as a teenager they were called the blackstone rangers, and the theater was in a rival gangs territory. I would go there and sit in theater and wait until the film start, and I will see my elvis movie and we, my elbows movie was over with I would take the long way round going back home because I couldn't take. The same route took because the gangs was out now. Daryl carried a gun had a twenty two. Five shot twenty two doubt carry with me just in case my rivals came across me and they neighborhood I had some kind of firepower with away. Darryl was living with his mom back then, and she was not pleased about any of this, the gangs and the guns, so he hid it from her. When I got away from the House I would put my black scarf on my head. WHO's signify I'm I'm arranger? But soon as I got near the House I'll take it all because I did my mood. Knock it. Oh, she would be to WHO. Mom Play. My Momma did play, so there were his mom's rules, but Darryl says there were also rules in the gang like if you saw one of your rivals walking with his parents or his girlfriend, you left alone. But if he was on his own, and you had a score to settle east fair game. Darrell even had title. He was called the shooter. Why were you considered a shooter? Because I would shoot you because you had good aim or because he had a gun, yes. Anytime you see me where a black wristband? You knew I had that gun on me? Because gun was so powerful that I needed to wristbands so I hold it like this here to shoot and I was extremely accurate. And some of my rivals one in particular. I won't mention his name. He was very deadly, too. In fact, he had my head off my here. One night. Ambush He let me know they don't came. Almost gets you know I'm sure okay now Mitre Daryl spent his teens in the gang. And then in nineteen seventy one he was convicted of murdering a man. He spent twelve years in prison, and then he was paroled when he got out, he went straight back to gang life, which brings us to the morning of the rate in nineteen, eighty three from the minute. The cops found him in the Closet Daryl knew something was different here than in his other run INS with the police because when they found him, they started calling him names Groman. first time are life being called a nigger. a white person. Yes, that was the first time I. Nine hundred, nineteen, eighty-three, nineteen, eighty three. So now, Daryl tells me he's an interview room, and there's a cattle prod, and he has no idea what to think. That's when the three cops take him outside and put him back in the car, and they start driving him southeast out of the city. The drive to this deserted place this rural place and there's a big pipe. It's big enough for the Cardiff it through they drive through the pipe, and they come out. The other side sees a pond, an a road that climbs up a hill. They drove up dead. He'll turn to car around. They got me out the car and one of the first things they nigger. Look around. Nobody's GonNa hear or see nothing we do to you. Am now looked around. There was nothing but isolated area now I started to get concerned as oh now. This ain't right at all. One of the cops gets a shotgun out of the trunk tells Daryl Open your mouth when Darrow won't. The COP forces the gun in Split, my lip and he chipped teeth, and then they had the barrel in my mouth I still Kennedy you until we WanNa hear and I'm trying to know. Go shoot dead nigger at who pull the trigger. And then he took the shot gone back out. Seen the nigger listen. The COP turns away from Daryl and makes like he's loading the shotgun, and he puts it back in Darryl's mouth. He does this two more times than third. When I heard that trigger. Sclerotic. In my mind, my mind told me that he had just blew the back of my head Oakland my hair stood straight up. And at that point I was beyond fear. Fear wouldn't ema. Option anymore. I honestly thought I was GONNA die. Daryl's thinking. It can't get any worse. He's in the middle of nowhere. They're mock executing him, and then it does get worse. They opened the back door of the detector car made me turn sideways and sit down sideways detective car where my beat was outside. It takes a car. They my pants, my shorts down. and. That's when. And Burns. Standing in front of me that CAL pro and Grun hearts came around. To the back seat. and. He pulled my hands up. And when he did, he jerked my hands. My cousin I laid down on the back seat. And Burns turn the CAL pro and stuck to Montana schools. And the pain that I feel from net was. Field and before my life and endured so. In doing so they finally broke him. I tell you you WANNA. Hear and then they start asking me questions all over again and yet. Yeah, yeah, that's the way it would. That's where it will become Baniyas. My mind was. Was So messed up. Darrell confessed said he was there when the murder. That, he didn't pull the trigger, but that he was an accomplice. And before they took him to jail, they stopped at a gas station at the gas station. say you want something to drink. 'cause my throat was dry and put to be so cold outside. And they thought I wanted to call. No, no, give me a pop. I'm on some coal. and. They took money that they had took from me and brought me up. With my mind. Yeah, I'll do something to. They took my money spent on themselves as well I, mean they. Can you let you can laugh because? It is so sickening. That is comical. You don't think that for one moment. People swore to serve and protect would act like this. The Cops Take Daryl to the county jail the next morning. He finally sees his lawyer and he tells his lawyer. These guys tortured me and his lawyer tells him all right. Draw me a picture. Would he took you? Who did what smacking jobs? They give me some stick figures as okay. And, that's what I did. Darrow went to trial in nineteen, eighty four. He tried to get his confession suppressed, but he couldn't. He was found guilty of murder and he was sentenced to life in prison based on a confession that the police had tortured out of him. So Darryl sits in prison, nineteen, eighty-four, eighty, five, eighty, six, eighty, seven, eighty eight. And at this point we're going to leave the story of Darrell Cannon for a little while. Because outside the prison walls, something really big was happening something that would eventually force Chicago to take another look at Daryl's case. In, one, thousand, nine, hundred nine reporter in Chicago named John Conroy got a tip from a friend. It wasn't about Darryl's case. It was about a different inmate, a guy who said he'd been tortured into a confession by Chicago police officers. The reporter John Conway thought it sounded crazy. I didn't think it was possible at the time you know police officers. Word was the Bible truth, but he went to this man's trial anyway, the. The guy's name was Andrew. Wilson and Wilson had evidence of torture. There were pictures taken after his interrogation where his skin looked burned. Connery started to believe him, and he wrote a story about Wilson, and not long after the story ran, connery started getting letters from Darrell Cannon who was sitting in jail in one of those letters. Daryl included the drawings that he'd done right after he was tortured. What was remarkable was that? He had drawn pictures of his. Torture, and so he drew a picture of a Kennel Prod Conroy eventually wrote about Daryl, and about other men who came forward, there was a law firm. The People's law office that had been collecting these stories of torture. Originally, they had probably eight names of people who had been either shocked or otherwise. Or otherwise suffered serious abuse, and then it expanded. It was sixteen was thirty eight. It was fifty two, and now it's at one hundred eighteen. Here's what emerged for twenty years. A group of Chicago police officers known as the midnight crew banged on doors. Men took men from their homes or snatch some from the street, and threw them in cars and tortured them, and the city knew about this for years, but over time the tide of stories made it impossible to ignore some of the men, one new trials, and were released and Chicago was left with this huge question. How do you make something like this right? There is no. Guidebook for this. There's no expert you can go to and say well. What did Cincinnati do or what happened in Tulsa? There's no answer one way to make things right would be for the police officers behind all this to go to trial. That didn't happen. The statute of limitations had run out, so it was too late to charge these guys. The ringleader Jon Burge was eventually charged with perjury that was for lying about the torture. He was sentenced to four and a half years. He got time off for good behavior I reached out to him and the officers. Daryl accuses of torturing him, but I didn't hear back. So, what could make this right for all those men who were tortured? One way we try to do this is with money, but exactly how much money is not like there's a formula here. Every guy story was different. Some of them spent years in prison. Some of them spent decades. Some were innocent they were. Some were guilty. What they had in common was the torture. Some did sue the city, but the amount of money each guy got could seem sort of random Ronald. Kitchen was one of the torture victims. A couple years ago, Ronald was exonerated after twenty one years in prison when he got out, he sued Chicago and is he remembers it. He just kind of picked a number. He had to be sixty eight million. Some shit like that seem million. Why? Why did you pick that just out of number? Just through? The thing was you want them to recognize to take he? Picks sixty million out of the hat I just tone I won't. What Seventy four year was it was some crazy number. I can remember what I was talking about. There was fine it was was. Meant that it was I wanted three million three minutes for each year. Something like that. It was something like that. Ronald settled for just over six dollars, but other guys warrant exonerated like Ronald was. They'd served their full sentences in so much time had passed that the statute of limitations had run out. The couldn't sue the city. They need another option. Meanwhile, a group of activists and lawyers and victims were pushing Chicago to make a big gesture to acknowledge that the torture had happened and to apologize for it. They wanted a very specific word used reparations. It felt very important to us. And I felt like the only fitting term. That is joey mogul. She's a lawyer and she's been working with some of these guys for years. She cofounded Chicago tortured Justice Memorial, says he activist group that led this effort. And Look Joey knew that reparations is a heavy word. It's usually used when we talk about making amends for slavery. That's why these activist liked the term. The men who were tortured were all black or Latino. The officers were white. The torture lives tore apart families, and amazingly the city of Chicago, said yes. We will make reparations I think the use of the word reparations. is stunning. That's John Conroy, the reporter who spent years covering this. You can't find another case in the United States where a city has paid reparations to people who have been tortured or otherwise abused by police, force and so. Soon as you start talking about paying reparations to population of people, that's largely African American you open up a a pretty interesting chapter in in the United States history. The torture victims were going to get their apology, but they wanted something else, too. They wanted money and this turned out to be a really big sticking point. It took years of back and forth negotiations to figure out what's enough. The active is doing the negotiating. I asked for twenty million dollar package in the city came back with zero. The city was refusing to provide any financial compensation. Compensation whatsoever, the victims said okay. We'll go down to twelve million. The city offered to three. They settled on five point five million split evenly fifty seven torture victims. Each man got one hundred thousand dollars including Darrell Cannon, who was tortured with a Cattle Prod Daryl spent more than twenty years in prison in two thousand seven. After a new hearing he got out, he went back to the south side and then this year he got the news. There was a check made out to him from the city of Chicago. He was finally going to get reparations. The checks were mailed out, but Darryl was like. I went and got what Donald Trust. Trust the system. so. We sent it. Are you having gotten his? You know well. Let's wait awhile. No, no, no, no, I don't I don't went through too many changes with Donald Trump's you. I'm coming to get my money. He went on into the Treasurer's office. went in and my name's Karen and I'm here to pick up my money. And they in turn Massey Idee. They already knew what money I was owned by Mitsui Torture them on. They knew and I showed them and the man gave me much yet. It was ninety seven thousand dollars. The city had deducted some money because of a small payout many years ago. A few weeks after Darryl got the money I met him at his house on the south side of Chicago. He's an old guy now he's got grandkids and this little black dog call tiny and. Him around everywhere I wanted to know how he felt about getting the money and what it meant to him, so I asked him how he was spending it. Any said on his family mostly. He sent some cash to his kids in his grandkids down south is brother died earlier this year and Darrell paid for the funeral. He got his brother. Plot on a hill. He says that's so his brother can look down on people. You bought his wife a diamond ring. Any says that her knees got weak when he gave it to her, and he bought himself a couple things to a two thousand fourteen Chevy Impala to replace his old junker and a new phone. He was happy to show him off. It's a beautiful car. Gold. I like to call it a champagne champagne. Yes, mm-hmm. I liked that Bay eloquent and Nice. You know like say you don't see a lot of them around and that's another reason why I picked it out because of the color. Tell me about your phone your galaxy. Yeah, this is galaxy six. I told myself that whenever I got some money I. Was GonNa Turning my galaxy three and get milk galaxy six at phony champagne. Isn't it almost? You like. Is it suits the car and the phone you know and I like to be kind of color coordinated suits. The man to of what can I say only in Americ-? Talking to Darryl. It's impossible not to feel happy for him, but you feel something else to. Twenty years in prison all he lost, and the city gave him one hundred thousand dollars when I met him, he had about nine grand left. Darryl is old friends with one of the other torture victims Ronald Kitchen. That's the guy who sued the city and one six million dollars. The grew up on the same streets and I asked Alan Ronald. If they'd be willing to talk to each other about the money they agreed, so he set up a phone call. Ronald was in Philly and I was with Daryl in Chicago. How you be brummer. I'm good how you doing. I'm taking one day at a time, so you went through kind of the same experience, but Ronald sued the city and got more than six million dollars, and an Daryl got one hundred thousand. Does it ever get weird for you? I I think people would think that you get six point seven million. They feel that. The city paid for, but. Like I always say. It's not about the money. No matter this is not about how much money you get because. The things that was taken away from you. You came back with money. It barely you. You don't feel jealous. That WANNA got six point seven million vote for I had told him they should have got more than six million and I met just that. Are the two of you unusual? Do you think I cannot speak for other people? I can speak for me. The money didn't make or break me in no safe form of fashion, and it is not something that. dwell alone and wish that it was more I talked to a handful of men who got the reparations money most said they spent it on Monday things and necessities like Rick Watch furniture mortgage payments when I asked. If it was enough, they all said basically the same thing. Your question is crazy. Of course, it's not enough. Nothing could ever be enough asking about numbers the point. The guys are going to get a couple of other things. Free Community College for them and their kids and their grandkids job training psychological counseling. But there is one other thing darryl would like and that has to do with the men who tortured him you know. My lawyers don't like for me to say with him. Getting Ready to say, but I still said anyway and that is. I cannot stand the air that they breathe. I hate them just as much and if he got a chance to be in the same room with them, I would love to to use a cal brown anyone in them. You wouldn't use A. No nose rolling. Say Yes, yes, yes, because. I want them to experience. What I felt. And I was shocked them until one or two things happen. They had heart attack or the batteries dial. ISLA. took to the SH. Sh. None of this is simple. None of this is fixed. Some of the men who got reparations checks are still in prison. That means Chicago admits they were tortured into confessions, but they're still locked up. So. Everyone said no amount of money could ever be enough, but there was one thing that all of these guys agreed on everyone I spoke to as part of this reparations package, every eighth and tenth grader in the city of Chicago. Is GonNa Learn about this torture? There's going to be part of the school curriculum. Every one of the guys said this is what's important to me that they're going to tell our story. That was Noel King after the break an update. The indicator from planet money brings you daily stories from this staggering moment in the American economy. Nobody has any money. Everybody stores close. By actually devastating, we could lose the far, and I laid my hat off. He's on unemployment. Listening subscribe to the indicator from NPR. Hail Sam Sanders here campaign reporter with NPR news here to tell you that the NPR politics podcast. Has You covered for the biggest two weeks of this election year so far skip the cable news hangover and listen to our daily episodes from the Republican and Democratic Conventions and Cleveland and Philadelphia everyday about conventions it all starts July nineteenth subscribe to the NPR politics podcast at NPR dot org slash podcast or on the NPR. One APP, thanks. Two years after this show aired former police commander Jon Burge who led the unit that tortured people in Chicago died. In two thousand ten, he'd been convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice. He was the only cop to ever actually be tried and convicted for anything related to the torturing, and in June. Chicago's Mayor Lori lightfoot brought up his name at a press conference as an example of how messed up the police. Accountability system is Jon Burge caused. Immeasurable Har-. To so many people. He got a prison. And, he lived a number of years thereafter. In every minute, he enjoyed his police pension. There's nothing right about that. It's offensive. But at the same time late foots administration continues to spend millions of dollars in court, fighting victims of the torturing who are seeking reparations from the city. As we preparing to rerun this piece, I got back in touch with Darrell Cannon and ask him about that. It's ridiculous and. Dead money embedded little toys the reparation, meanwhile, Daryl and other survivors are still waiting on some other reparations promises. The city made five years ago. One Big One in particular a monument, so the monument means the world. Because it's a permanent something. To show of what we had to endure, Chicago's said it would work to build this public monument to honor the torture survivors. There's a design. A stone buildings shaped kind of like a snail shell marked with a list of names. Memorial is not something to remind simply of the horror is to remind us that we as a people. Can make the chain if we come about and we stay the course, but so far nothing's happened. Lightfoot administration has yet to fund the building. Other parts of the reparations bill though are working. Oh, I meant to ask you. Your grandson is going to city college. That is correct. The reparations that we want. my grandson is benefiting. He's going to Olive Har-, our be college and He's studying criminal. Law is in tip is to be a police offs Oh. Wow! Off. Is His intake it? Up Elise officer said Yes sir. We do need a new wave of police officer Incident Chicago. No doubt about that. We need officers on that are aware of what is happening in the black community in the past. You know you did one thing wrong to me, but my grandson is going to rectify. This coexistence for them. And I asked Darryl if he'd been to any of the recent protests against police, brutality and racism. Smell. Cup Approach to, but they didn't know I was there. You know which you having Kapil. Glasses in the mail classes and masks, so he was basically non. He could've gotten up on whatever stage taken the Mike. He says he didn't want to. Because I did not want to detract. From youngsters that have now picked up the mantle and started this crusade. Darryl, says he's feeling hopeful that his fight is being led by a new generation. We have done our homework. We have done with people like Dr King done the. Other influential leaders who have came long before us to say, Hey, look, you can achieve your goals of being treated like human beings. You can achieve a measure of just it's not going to be easy, but you can achieve, and so all of us are thinking about defect, and we'll continuing this this crusade until justice prevail. When we first ran this episode, Noel did a companion version that focuses more on Darryl's life, an emotional journey that was for our friends at WNYC's podcast death sex money. They are publishing that again next week. If you have questions or comments about today's episode, email us at planet money at NPR Dot Org, or tweet us at planet money. We're also on facebook and INSTAGRAM TIKTOK special. Thanks to will porch anthony homes. George Powell Alice Kim Daniel Coin. Today's episode was originally produced by Jiang and this rerun was produced by Liza ager. Alex Marcus are managing editor Brian at the show. Mary childs. This is NPR. Thanks for listening.

Mitre Daryl Chicago Darryl Darrell cannon NPR Noel King Tiktok reporter Alan Ronald Jon Burge officer John Conroy Hilo Darrow Burns Ronald Kitchen Tiktok blackstone rangers Lori lightfoot
From the archives: John Horton Conway: the worlds most charismatic mathematician  podcast

The Audio Long Read

41:06 min | 2 weeks ago

From the archives: John Horton Conway: the worlds most charismatic mathematician podcast

"The guardian hi. My name chaban roberts. The piece you're about to hear isn't adapted excerpt. From my biography of john horton conway titled genius. Play published by bloomsbury in two thousand fifteen. John died last year to complications from cova age. Eighty two. i miss him. He'd become a friend as a source he was such good value riveting and wise of it so many subjects mathematical and otherwise. I'd known john for almost twenty years. I met him while writing my first book about his friend. And fellow geometry. Donald cox center conway was hard to pin down initially but eventually found him at a summer math camp in massachusetts. He was sixty something. Nerd as grungy as all the teenage campers and immediately. I knew that conway was a book for starters. Of course he was a world class mathematician. But it's contributions to the cannon ran broad and deep end frivolous. He was a bit of a magpie that way but he was also a great storyteller and he loved buttonholing an unsuspecting stranger at a coffee shop and serving them a rollicking riff about his latest obsession. It could be anything from a number theory. Problem like the colette's conjecture to the science of rainbows to his latest masterpiece. The free will theorem conflicted with his princeton colleague. Simon koshen above all conway simply loved knowledge and he sought to know everything about the universe. He possessed what. I came to call a promiscuous curiosity he loved. Words and collected. Tamales enduring are seemingly endless interviews over many years. He often interrupt me or himself to share apropos nuggets. For instance with the word promiscuous. I remember he pointed out that it originally meant mixed or well-mixed then it started being used in the context of swimming. Pools bathing meant men and women could bathe in the same pool since previously. They bathed separately. Then he said it acquired its odor of sex promiscuous behavior and so on and so forth for me. Conway's undeniable charisma resided in this desire to share his curable. Lust for learning. He was dogged. An undaunted in explaining the inexplicable an even when in the end something remained opaque he left his audience elevated fortified by the failed attempt and feeling somehow in cahoots satisfied at having flirted at least with a glimmer of understanding for his own part he called himself a professional non understand her chasing after conway's promiscuous non understanding and his magical ingenuity with mathematics is what i wanted to capture in telling his story. Welcome to the guardian long read showcasing the best long form journalism covering culture politics and you thinking for the text version of this in all our long reads. Go to the guardian dot com forward slash joan houghton conway. The world's most charismatic mathematician. John horton conway is across between archimedes. Mick jagger and salvador dali for many years. He worried that his obsession with playing silly games was ruining his career until he realized that it could lead to extraordinary discoveries by chevron roberts on a late september day in nineteen fifty six john horton conway left home with a trunk on his back. He was a skinny eighteen year. Old with long unkempt. Hair her sort of proto hippie and although he generally preferred to go barefoot on this occasion he wore strappy. Jesus sandals he travelled by steam train from liverpool to cambridge where he was to start life as an undergraduate during the five hour journey via crew with a connection in bletchley. Something dawned on him. This was a chance to reinvent himself and junior school. one of conway's teaches had nicknamed him marry. He was a delicate effeminate creature being. Mary made his life absolute hell until he moved on to secondary school at liverpool's hold high school for boys soon after turn began the headmaster cool each boy into his office and asked what he planned to do with his life. John said he wanted to read mathematics at cambridge. Instead of mary. He became known as the proof. These nicknames confirmed conway as a terribly introverted adolescent painfully aware of his own suffering after loitering for a time with the teenage reprobates at the back of the classroom conway ultimately did well enough on the university entrance exams to receive a minor scholarship and get his name published in the liverpool daily post as he sat on the train to cambridge adorned on him that since none of his classmates will be joining him at university he would be able to transform himself into a new person an extrovert. He wasn't sure it would work. He worried that his introversion might be too entrenched but he decided to try he would be boisterous and witty. He would tell funny stories at parties. He would laugh at himself. That was key. Roughly speaking he recalled. I was going to become the kind of person you see now. It was a free decision now. Seventy seven john horton. Conway is perhaps the world's most lovable egomaniac he is archimedes. Mick jagger salvador dali and richard feynman all rolled into one. He's one of the greatest living mathematicians with a sly sense of humor. A polymath promiscuous curiosity and a compulsion to explain everything about the world to everyone in it. According to some michael attiyah former president of the royal society and arbiter of mathematical fashion conway is the most magical mathematician in the world. For the last quarter-century conway has held a position of princeton's john von neumann distinguished. Professor in applied and computational mathematics now emeritus before that he spent three decades at cambridge where in the nineteen seventies. He dived deep into the vast ocean of mathematical symmetry. He discovered a twenty four dimensional symmetry group that came to bear his name and with his colleague simon norton he illuminated the one hundred ninety six thousand eight hundred eighty three dimensional monster group with paper titled monstrous moonshine. Conway also discovered a new class of numbers infinitely large an infant testimonies more which are now known as surreal numbers. Those achievements earned him a spot as a fellow of the royal society of london for improving natural knowledge. The oldest scientific society in the world conway likes to mention that when he was elected in nineteen eighty one. He signed the big book of fellows at the induction ceremony and was pleased to see on previous pages. The names isaac newton albert einstein. Alan turing and bertrand russell. Conway's is a and and playful egomania sweetened by self deprecating charm. He has on many occasions. Admitted i do have a big ego as i often say. Modesty is my only vice. If i weren't so modest. I'd be perfect. That said he is irresistibly drawn to piddling away his days playing games preferably silly children's games while is colleagues zealously god vacations for uninterrupted research. Time conway prefers to spend his summers hopping between maths camps for students. This july. for instance. Conway is playing games at a maths camp for teens in bremen germany and then flying over to portland oregon for a middle school camp. This lust for the seemingly trivial has consumed a remarkable amount of conway's time and energy in addition to all the gaming he's also been infatuated with factoring large numbers in his head with reciting pi from memory to one thousand one hundred eleven plus digits with calculating nearly instantaneously the day of the week for any given date using what he calls his doomsday algorithm. He's invented many peculiar algorithms for counting stairs. While you climb without actually counting and for how best to read through a stack of double-sided loose leaf pages and has been known to carry on his person deck of cards dice. Ropes pennies coathangers. Sometimes a slinky may be miniature toy bicycle all props. He deploys both explaining ideas and his own amusement while they may seem little method to his madness. Curiosity driven research is attracting renewed attention and support as a strategy for success in the sciences both pure and applied and economically society as a whole at the first national mathematics festival in washington in april. The italian economist. Mario draghi president of the european central bank and one of the keynote speakers noted that to believe and invest in fundamental research is to believe and invest in the future that with increasing constraints on demographic natural resources. And the impending secular stagnation as some call it. The countries that make fundamental research and maths and science a high priority will be the countries that prosper economically will though conway himself regards money with an indifference verging on contempt. He is a crusading ambassador for simple curiosity which he considers the universal force driving discovery by nineteen sixty four a couple of years longer than it should have taken conway finished his phd thesis which explored modest. By way of set theory. He then needed a job. This a challenge. Not because there weren't jobs to be had no because he wasn't qualified. The insuperable obstacle was merely applying as the end of his phd funding approached. Conway did nothing. He remembers walking down the street and bumping into ian ca- sells a canny scot who for time held the post of the sud larry and professor of pure mathematics and also the position of department head. Cosell's asked him. What have you done about a job. nothing replied conway. There's a position opening here. Why didn't you apply. how do i go about it. He wrote me a letter. What should i say took pity. He offered to write the letter four conway. He sat down the side of the road on a stone wall. In front of king's college rummage through his briefcase found a pen. Pulled out a piece of paper and began dear professor cells. I wished to apply for. He handed it to conway and instructed him to sign and cosell's filed the letter away in his briefcase. Victory was his. Conway was sure a while later. He got the news in the mail. I'm terribly sorry. Gazelles wrote you didn't get the job but he continued. There is another position coming up next year. And unless you indicate your wishes to the contrary i shall take your previous letter. As a letter of application for that position conway succeeded in obtaining this second position he became an assistant lecturer. The students love their new lecturer. As much his mind as his hijinks he had a homely lecturing style discussing abstract concepts in terms of trains. and 'cause cats and dogs in lecturing on symmetry and the platonic solids he sometimes brought a large it and a carving knife to class. Transforming the vegetable one slice at a time into an ikea sahelian with twenty triangular faces eating the scraps as he went for one student. Edward wellborn now. A software engineer and oslo. The most memorable was conway's linear algebra course specifically a session wherein conway proved the fatu symmetric quadraphonic forms both can be simultaneously diagonals. D- no smoke feet. Doing each takes moderately tricky piece of computation. Said wellborn to do too at the same time as thus doubly tricky like balancing a broom by. It's handle on once chin while juggling. This is exactly what conway did while concluding the proof. When i mentioned this tacoma way he crippled that in fact he had balanced bremen his chin and simultaneously balanced a penny on the hook of a coathanger and then with a centrifugal swoop spun this coat a contraption around like a helicopter rotor. Such incidents inspired the creation of the john conway appreciation society. He was by far the most charismatic lecturer in the faculty said his cambridge colleagues. Peter swinnerton dyer. I'm not sure that. I can describe how charisma happens. It just is or isn't and with most mathematicians it markedly isn't part of conway's charm is his talent spinning tales. He seems almost as expert at storytelling as he is discovering deep mathematical truths a favourite in his repertoire involves cromwell lord protector of the commonwealth and fellow circa sixteen sixty of sidney sussex. College where conway also belong does a fellow working on his biography. I heard it many times from conway himself and during a research trip to cambridge. I heard it again from his first wife. Eileen late one night in the early nineteen sixties. Conway came home and told eileen of an odd party. He'd just attended at the summons of the muster of college conway and select fellows gathered for a private dinner together with college chaplain. An alumnus. Dr horace wilkinson and anaesthetist whose family had kept cromwell's head in a velvet lined oak box for nearly one hundred fifty years wilkinson donated to the college. The world traveled skull with the intention that it finally be laid to rest to hear. Conway's telling it was a raucous night with ample drink and a sumptuous dinner after which the master led a candlelit procession into the ante chapel where the chaplain gave a brief service followed by the burial and consecration stopping by sidney sussex college to do some fact checking. I asked after cromwell the porter escorted me to the ante chapel and pointed to a plaque on the wall near to this place was buried on twenty fifth of march nineteen. Sixty the head of oliver cromwell. This prompted me to put a few questions to conway. Where exactly was the dinner. What was on the menu. What was the conversation at the table. And had he actually seen the head. My questions not greeted with conway's usual. Know-it-all enthusiasm yes. He said that is a great story. Isn't it and i often tell that story with myself. A supporting role as if i had actually been He had made it up. He wasn't even a fellow at sidney. Sussex until nineteen sixty four. He'd no doubt heard rumors. And an opportune moment when he needed a captivating story to tell he claimed his tail as his own because well it was a great story. The incident revealed conway is an accomplished fiction air and a rather unreliable narrator of his own life there is a cartoon during of conway. That neatly captures this. Devilish nece growing from his head is a horned sphere atop logical entity classified more generally as a pathological example and known for being counterintuitive. Ill ill-behaved much like conway himself. In attempting to get a better read on conway and his. I consulted irving levin an art historian at the institute for advanced study in princeton. Laving noted that conway was in good company. Among artists picasso for one who matched creativity with promiscuity both intellectual and interpersonal so maybe conway seeming inability to distinguish fact from fiction correlated to his uncanny ability to see mathematics differently to pursue pure curiosity driven research no matter how superficially trivial and to achieve his hideous incredibly original results through the early to mid nineteen sixties. However conway didn't accomplish much. He spent the majority of his time. Playing games inventing games such as sprouts with graduate student. Michael patterson and reinventing rules two games. He found boring such as chess. He liked games that moved in a flash. He played backgammon constantly for small stakes. Chalk on though he never got very good at it by outward appearances he was blissfully playing around the conway was well aware he was doing. Nothing had done nothing. He began to worry that he didn't deserve his job that he was on the verge of being sacked. He was pissing away his days playing games though with an ever-present grouping of student disciples gathered at his knee. He oscillated between having fun and feeling guilty and depressed. He causes period in his life. The black blank inwardly. He worried that his mathematical seoul was withering away the guardian guardian in august nineteen sixty six. The international congress of mathematicians convened at moscow state university and it was their reclining against a giant cylindrical pillar. At least five foot in diameter. The conway turned crucial corner. A man approached. And asked you conway the interlocutor. Was john mckay then. A phd student at the university of edinburgh. Now a professor at concordia university in montreal mckay had a tip for conway. He suggested that it might be worthwhile exploring a mathematical commodity that had recently attracted interest. The leech lattice discovered by the university of sterling's john leech the best lattice for sphere packing in twenty four dimensions with the lattice being a set of points derived from the centers of the spheres by analogy consider that the best packing of circles in two dimensions is eggs angle because if you connect the dots of the centers of any six circle surrounding a central circle pennies on a table say these central dots connect to form hexagons. The arrangement of circles has twelve cemetries. It can be rotated or reflected in twelve different ways and it looked exactly the same by extension. Then mathematician suspected that the leech lattice might contain an exquisitely large and coveted symmetry. The leech lattice intrigued. Conway he decided to go hunting for this big symmetry for lattices symmetry group conway told his wife that were he to succeed. This would make his name by now. He had four young daughters. He memorized his girls. Birthdates by classifying them as the sixties fibs since they were born in nineteen sixty plus the fibonacci numbers i e nineteen sixty plus two then three then five then eight equals nineteen sixty two nine hundred sixty three nine hundred sixty five nineteen sixty eight and in setting out in search of the group he told susie rosie elliott and anne that daddy wasn't to be disturbed. He planned to set aside wednesday nights from six o'clock to midnight and saturdays from noon to midnight for as long as necessary he put away the games he would play around with each lattice instead. Conway is the rest of mathematician whose ability to connect his pet mathematical. Interests makes one wonder if he isn't at some level shaping mathematical reality and not just exploring it. James proper professor of mathematics at the university of massachusetts lower once told me the example of this that i know best is a connection. He discovered between sphere packing and games. These were two separate areas of study. That conway had arrived up by two different paths. So there's no reason for them to be linked but somehow through the force of his personality and the intensity of his passion. He bent the mathematical universe to his will and he almost seemed to do the same. While looking for the leech lattice symmetry group conway had expected to keep to his house arrest. Work ethic for weeks or months or beyond locking himself away that first saturday he unfurled an unused road of wallpaper backing paper and sketched out. All he knew about the problem by that very evening he'd figured it out he deduced. the leech. lattice is number of cemeteries it was four trillion. One hundred fifty seven thousand seven hundred seventy six billion eight hundred six thousand five hundred forty three million and three hundred sixty thousand or possibly double at. He telephoned cambridge's john thompson. The god of group theory and they determined it was the double eight trillion. Three hundred fifty thousand five hundred fifty three billion six hundred thirty nine thousand eighty six million and seven hundred twenty thousand when i tested coma for more details regarding the seminal moscow meeting that inspired his triumphant half day of discovery. He begged off. He was loath to add any spurious precision as he came to refer to his embellishments advertently or accidental. My memory my memory is a liar. He said it's good liar. It deceives even me one thing he was willing to discuss was what precisely he was doing when he was looking for the group for instance when he was working with the lattice he wasn't just working with the basic x y coordinates he was working with twenty four dimensional coordinates for example. Three one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one and some of the work was as simple as applying. The pythagorean theorem. Still calm we refuse to pull back the curtain too far. Yes it's true. My calculations technically speaking were using pythagoras theorem. He said but to concentrate on the calculation is misleading. It's like asking an artist. Where did you paint the person's chin was it one foot five above the base of the pitcher or one foot six if you're thinking about conceptual things the measurements don't matter it's rather unfortunate that we can't just see these things because it means that i can only appreciate the beauty of them truly after i have done the calculation since i can't conjure up twenty four dimensional space. I use numbers to do it for a time. I was thinking so geometrically about these things that i used to imagine myself with lots and lots of arms and legs extra limbs because if i have two arms and point them out then they both lie in a plane and i'll use a leg as well and now they are lying in three dimensional space to form an adequate idea and adequate geometric visualization of. What's going on in twenty dimension is more or less impossible enlarged dimensional space. There are large numbers of directions to point so you would seem to need quite a load of arms and legs. I distinctly remember imagining myself stuck in the middle of this space and waving all my arms and legs in the air and trying to understand things looking up at the stars pretending they are the latest points and just sort of daydreaming as tradition dictates. Conway's discovery of the leech. Lattice symmetry meant that it became known as the conway group which in fact contains three smaller groups sometimes collectively called the conway constellation. This was the hot mathematical news of the day and earned him invitations to lecture. Across the globe it was at this juncture. Having found his namesake group that conway made what he called the vow promising himself thou shalt stop worrying and feeling guilty. Thou shalt do whatever pleases. He no longer worried that he was eroding his mathematical so when he indulged his curiosity and followed wherever it went whether towards recreation research or somewhere altogether non mathematical such as his longing to learn the etymology of words. Conway's fate now was to do all the stuff that he had formerly feared his fellow. Mathematicians might flock in our synod. Hypocrite flocking cinna help. Olympic ation is his favorite word. He reckons. It's the longest word in the oxford english dictionary. It certainly is in the top three and without prompting he gives an account of his etymology. It is a latin based word invented circa seventeen thirty. at eton. as a school boy's joke and conway recites nearly verbatim the oecd's definition the action habit of estimating as worthless the period of time during which conway discovered his group circa nineteen sixty nine though he prefers to rounded up to nineteen seventy. He calls his annus mirabilis. Within roughly the same twelve month period he also discovered his surreal numbers. This came as a direct if unexpected by product of playing all those games when he noticed that big games broke down into a sum of small games he deconstructed the games. Classifying the moves of each player determining who was ahead and by. How much and while doing this deconstructing analyzing the some of mini games. Within the larger game he happened upon the surreal numbers like an escher. Optical illusion say a regular tess elation of birds morphing into fish conway beheld the game and then he saw that it embedded or contain something else entirely the numbers that same year he also invented the game of life. A cellular automaton that to this day retains cult status. It is not a game proper conway cool and no player never ending gain. It is played on a grid like tic tac toe and according to three simple rules of conway's devising the cells placed on the grid proliferate resembling skittering micro viewed under a microscope a cellular automaton is in essence a little machine with groups of cells that evolve from iteration to terezin in discrete rather than continuous time. In seconds say each tick of the clock advances the next iteration and then over time behaving a bit. Like a transformer or a shape shifter the cells evolve into something anything everything else ask. Such the game of life demonstrates how simplicity generates complexity providing an analogy for all of mathematics and the entire universe. Conway summed up his. Anna's mirabel is thus before. Everything i touched turned nothing. Now i was midas and everything i touched turned to gold. It was more than a decade later. That the royal society installed him as a fellow in nineteen eighty-one. Thereupon conway went around cambridge translating the initials f r s fellow of the royal society telling people he was now officially a filthy rotten swine the year nineteen eighty five also proved productive conway. If not quite another anna's miraculous it came close. He had continued his sphere packing work with. At and t. Labs mathematician neil sloane and that year the do secured us patent number. Four million five hundred seven thousand six hundred forty eight decoding techniques for multidimensional codes applying their sphere packing in coding theory figuring out how to most efficiently send signals across telephone and fiber lines. This and other papers on the subject were recognized with prize from the i. e. e. information theory society they possessed superior understanding of multidimensional geometry and. They were solving crucial problems. Necessary for higher dimensional coding. Oh so in. Nineteen eighty five after fifteen years of station conway and his co authoring. Some chums robot curtis simon norton richard pocket and robert wilson published the atlas of finite groups. Perhaps the most important book in group theory around subsequently picked up by physicists with super symmetry offering a crucial extension to the standard model of particle physics the model explaining the basic building blocks of the universe and the fundamental forces of nature. The same year conway accepted an invitation to speak at princeton which eventually led to a job offer. He took up a full time position in nineteen eighty-seven the princeton. It was a coup. The communications office sent out a glossy press release and the university president in announcing the higher praised conway as a multifaceted phenomenon. One of the most eminent mathematicians of the century in nineteen ninety-three conway the attention of a new york times reporter the resulting profile opened with what conway calls his doomsday rule. An algorithm by which he can calculate the day of the week for any given date. Dr john h conway sits down at his computer and gets ready to logon but before the computer allows him to begin work. It quickly spews out. Ten randomly selected dates from the past and the future dates like the fifteen th of march two thousand and five or the twenty ninth of april eighteen. Three dr conway has to mentally calculate what day of the week each would be before his computer. Let him open a file and get to work. It is a game. He has rigged up to play with himself. After inventing the doomsday game of sorts in nineteen seventy-two conway had set a goal to double his speed every five years for doing ten dates in rapid succession. Landing at princeton did nothing to put him off. Course why did. I want to be fast. It's impressive he said. It's a nice party trick. I don't know that it ever got me any goals. But it's the sort of thing that might have done occasionally with the right. Go a certain type of girl. His record was then fifteen point. Nine two seconds to calculate all ten dates roughly one and a half seconds each one he was on track with his doubling go and he informed the report that he was the fastest person in the world. The fosters that is until stephen d miller and nineteen year old. Phd student arrived on the scene. In the early nineteen nineties he and conway entered into hostile competition to see who could smack out ten dates faster. Conway used this as a strategy to keep his brains sharp and ward off aging a worry that was increasingly playing on his mind he had always avoided mirrors never much liking his appearance and as the years clicked on would he also avoided catching sight of his reflection in shop windows. These were turbulent times for conway. He had survived a difficult divorce from his second wife. Larisa with whom he has two boys alexander oliver both now pursuing mathematics at rutgers and nyu respectively as well as a heart attack and attempted suicide. He had suffered bouts of depression in the past and after the heart attack he got depressed again. Contributing factors being the acrimony with larisa alienated from his young boys and money. Troubles he at a stash of sleeping pills like an entree at lunch larisa and a lawyer following the suicide attempt. He made his comeback so to speak his re entry to daily life knowing full. Well that people around town were talking by borrowing t shirt belonging to his rock climber friend neil sloane and wearing it around for and blazoned as it was with the big bold letters suicide and the tiny word rock beneath conway thereby instituted his. Let it all hang out policy which involved frequently and flippantly recounting this trying chapter in his life even to this day he sometimes offhandedly adds it as a chatty preface to a lecture about maths shortly following this dark period during a money intellectual cliff jumping escapade conway wondered what is time would be with help of god short for. Gimme a date a computer program. One of his graduate students are designed to help conway get even quicker. He was nearly too scared to try. He sat down at the computer and ripped off ten dates in an astonishing nine point. Six two seconds didn't try again. He recalled my heart was pumping away. Like mad. I got this enormous amount of adrenaline. I actually felt liquids pouring into my brain and it was scary as all hell but it was interesting taking the lead off and seeing how the brain works in the end not counting. Conway's manic nine point sixty seconds. Steve miller prevailed in the gad. Competition miller calculated ten dates in ten point. Six six seconds. His brain was much younger plain and simple. He is now a professor and vice chair of the maths department at rutgers. But no matter this routine conway was all part of deceiving himself into believing he was still only five years older than his students. It was getting to the point however where he wasn't so easily fooled. You're young and then you are old and here. I'm always surrounded by brilliant young mathematicians. How'd you keep your end up. Keeping up with the youngsters is the gist of what conway cools his nerds. Nightmare a hunch backed centenarian looking a wreck. He hobbles into the princeton mass department. Common room the graduate student asks. Who's the old geezer her friend says. I think that's what's his name. Conway conway sits there wearing his mona lisa. Smile waiting for an opportunity to pounce finally in the course of the students compensation they happened to mention a date. Romeo born again april first. Twenty fifteen and quick as a flash conway works at out. That was a wednesday and the students say to themselves. Oh there is someone in there. It's my insurance policy against old age. Explained conway this decrepit old guy snaps off a date in spring two thousand nine three after he suffered a stroke that sped him intellectually but left him with a cane and a gammy right side co delivered a six part lecture series on his latest brainchild. The free will theorem devised with his princeton colleague. Simon kokin the theorem deploys motley combination of quantum mechanics axioms philosophy and geometry. It is most simply stated as follows. If physicists have free will perform experiments then elementary particles possess free will as well and this probably explains why and how humans have free will in the first place as unlikely as it sounds. It is a line of thinking that has an illustrious lineage originating with john von neumann. The father of the modern computer in certain quarters. The theorem is being taken seriously. Roundly debated and thoroughly discussed with for example a paper just last year in the journal foundation of physics where conway and kokin originally published their result in two thousand and six the picks up the idea and rolls it along. Over the course of the lectures graduate students in maths marveled at how conway and cochran had managed to infuriate two departments at once trespassing on physicists territory in such a way as to make philosophers hair stand on end jacob zimmerman another prodigious nineteen year old was particularly interested. He'd been spending lots of time with conway playing football short for philosophers football yet. Another game of conway's invention using a grid bored with white and black stones and at once debating the merits and demerits of the theorem. Cimmamon thought it was deepened. Fun and puzzling. But it was more impressed with football. Football is arguably the greatest triumph of this man. He told me. And i don't mean that condescendingly. It's a great game. A few years ago. I watched cimmamon face off against conway in the princeton mass department. Common room where conway spends all of his time because his office is such an uninhabitable tip after some skin from conway followed by four from cinnamon the youngster enthusiastically conceded. Another defeat. your game professor. He accepted a rematch. Even though another game was bound to make him late for his seminar cimmamon soon suffered a setback. A few tackled later. Conway face trouble. He cautioned reports of. My death. Have been greatly exaggerated this time though. He was beaten at his own game. And the victoria. Symon sprinted off to class but he's fifteen minutes late noted conway that's my real aim in getting them to play these games to ensure they don't do well in math to destroy all these formerly promising mathematicians simmons subsequently went onto harvard and is currently an assistant professor at the university of toronto conway subsequently went onto as ever play more games and engage in all manner of nerdiness delights spending hours upon hours for example. Curing the rubik's cube and reciting pi and playing dotson boxes or sprouts with his thirteen year. Old son gareth via his third wife. Diana usually though conway can be fan squatting in the princeton common although still young at heart and head he looks more and more like his old friend. Archimedes increasingly bearded and increasingly gray with an other worldly mean a look that should earn him a spot in the online quiz featuring portraits of frumpy. Old men under the rubric prof or hobo. His uniform is faded chino's stained with splotches that he camouflages by doodling spirals or crisscrossing with his pen and on top. He always wears a t shirt from his infinite collection emblazoned with math z. Messages such as a you crying. There's no crying. There's no crying in math class for conway. It is mathematics that allows him to clear away the clouds of reality as he put it. Math was always there for me. It is the room where he finds solace an infinite unadulterated pleasure. He's retired but he keeps on playing and as he himself noticed. He's now being more productive than ever with cambridge. Friend and collaborator. Alex riba now a professor of computer science at the city university of new york's queens college. He's writing papers on magic squares on pascal. Theorem about a mysterious exa. Graham the heck's grandma mysticism and on the extra fibonacci serious and the empire state building. They are also finishing the triangle. Book which conway's had in the works for decades and starting the monster book perhaps conway's bestselling book ever was winning ways feel mathematical plays first published in nineteen eighty to a collection of wisdom about games. Which in early. August is being fated at the museum of mathematics in new york city celebrating conway and his co authors. Uc berkeley's elwyn. Birla camp and calgary's richard guy as an epigraph in the book advises borrowing from oscar wilde. Life is far too important to be taken seriously for more god long. Rene's in text on a selection audio. Go to the guardian dot com forward slash long. Read or find us on soundcloud at soundcloud ford slash. The guardian long read for more downloads. Go to the guardian dot com slash audio.

conway Conway john horton conway cambridge princeton chaban roberts Donald cox Simon koshen joan houghton conway chevron roberts john horton Mick jagger salvador dali michael attiyah royal society and arbiter of m simon norton isaac newton albert einstein royal society sciences both pure and applied Cosell king's college
First Thursday, January 2021

Labor Relations Information System

41:12 min | 9 months ago

First Thursday, January 2021

"Hello folks welcomed. The first thursday the monthly podcast from the labor relations information system. My name is will aitchison. I'll be your host for the next forty five minutes or so as we go through recent developments in the public safety workplace. But i i want to start with a little bit of a war story It's not often that. I end up getting involved with the press on a story that they are developing but it has been happening this year or last year. Me already made my first twenty twenty mistake there. It's been happening in twenty twenty with a frequency that i have experienced at no time in my career. I am getting called all the time from news outlets around the country asking for comment or background information on this and that always dealing with policing and and the protests around policing well so was that in september of this year i started getting phone calls from some new york times reporters who were doing an article on binding arbitration of disciplinary cases for police. There were three articles. I spoke to them. I at least three times For a number of hours actually in total that i spoke to them And i get it as an opportunity and opportunity to make central point a rap about the issue of binding arbitration police and the point was we see reported in the popular press. The notion that police unions are in ordinarily powerful. because they overturn at least half of all discipline in binding arbitration and my point. The one that i wanted to make to the new york times reporters was that. Statistic is fundamentally misleading because police unions do not challenge every disciplinary decision in arbitration in my career. A career that stretches back decades. My experience has been that police. Unions challenged discipline less than five percent of the time. Yes once they get to arbitration. They do win half of those cases. It's like truck drivers when half of their cases and firefighters new nurses and teachers. Yes they do win half of their cases but what it means when police are only appealing less than five percent of the their cases it means that the employers disciplinary decision stands untouched by arbitration. Well over ninety five percent of the time. In fact if i take a look at my track record with the one that i have with clients i've represented over the years that numbers perilously close to ninety nine percent. So i took the opportunity and these interviews with reporters to make that point. I it four times and the point that i made to them was the issue here isn't arbitration of discipline. If you're looking for problems with the police disciplinary system you need to look elsewhere because arbitrators have an impact on less than five percent of police disciplinary decisions. I made that point on four separate occasions and then in december. When i looked at the front page of the new york times that had the story a lengthy lengthy story. Do you think they publish up. Of course not right. It detracted from the dominant narrative. So i immediately wrote a letter to the editor and the letter to the editor said. The article was based on incorrect. Premise and the incorrect premise was that arbitrators consider all police disciplinary cases. They don't they consider very very very few of them. Do you think they publish that letter to the editor and mind you. I was somebody they thought. Important enough to make a phone call to and interview for our troops and they did not publish the central point that i was making now. You know i'm a grown boy right. I realize that all media outlets have their biases they have the narratives the stories that they wanna tell bet up. I'll tell you. I was fundamentally disappointed. With the fact that a newspaper that is i think our best newspaper in the country would behave in such a fashion. I properly got in touch with a reporter and set her the lead reporter. And how could you do this. He said don't be a follow up story. And you can make your point then. Yeah i think meant to hold my breath on that right not another prefatory note that i wanted to share with you And this too is a law enforcement issue. There's a study that came out From published on the national bureau of economics review website And we will post it with us a podcast. It's an article that deals with the statistical relationship between the size of a police force and various police actions and interactions particularly with people of different races. It's a long article. It's seventy two pages long fair warning. It's written by three social scientists. One of them is an economics professor. Which means it's dense and it's very very difficult at least for me to understand But i'll tell you what you can draw from this if you were in any sort of discussion in your cities or counties about reducing the size of your law enforcement agency in need to get to this paper. Here are the broad conclusions of this paper number one. If you add police officers you get a very substantial a very substantial reduction in the homicide rate and that is particularly trip you get double the effect In hispanic communities and it is really really true in african american communities. We get four times the effect that you get for the general population conclusion number two. You increase the number of police officers. You have more arrests. For indexed crimes. Index crimes think of them as a serious crimes felonies most states and that stands to reason as well right More police officers are out in the community. More there's more of an ability to arrest people for crimes number three more police officers translates to more what are called quality of life arrests. So arrests for things like Loitering or public drunkenness. And the like most of the police departments. i know of. Don't have time to arrest anybody for those things but The study goes back many years go. That goes back decades and it shows a strong relationship between additional police and these quality of life arrests. And you can debate whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't think you can debate the first two The murder rate and the index crime rate. You can debate whether quality of of life arrests going up or going down or her in general good for us But you can't debate that the effect is there at happens forth there is an almost existent but slight increase in the use of deadly force by police with more police officers And the authors of the report. Don't say why but it stands to reason right. You're putting officers into communities where there are higher crime rates a higher arrest for index crimes You're going to end up with more deadly force incidence It seems pretty natural. It is not a big effect it has it is almost statistically insignificant effect and the last conclusions. There's more conclusions in the article. Just giving you the highlights that i drew out of it. The last conclusion was that With more police officers you have measurably. This is a much stronger. Statistical effect measurably lower officer injuries. That are the result of attacks from suspects so interesting study Take a look at it you. If you're like me you may need someone to translate some of the charts and tables that are in it. And and i i can only go so many times to one of my sons and say so what what is not value again So you may need to find someone who can explain that sorta stuff to you all right. Our first case this month comes to us. Courtesy of the washington court of appeals and it raises an issue. That will bet a lot of you're going to see in two thousand and twenty one or two thousand twenty two. What happens if the parties to bargaining can't agree on whether or not bargaining should be open to the public. This case comes to us. Courtesy of lincoln county which is a smallish county in the state of washington. Teamsters local six ninety represents a couple of bargaining units of lincoln county employees and in two thousand sixteen the county or the commissioners passes a resolution this resolution which was passed without notice at all to the teamsters required that all collective bargaining be done in public Why the county was getting pressure from an outfit known as the freedom foundation which is one of these cope brothers supported Conservative think tanks about opening bargaining to the public and the county thought. This was the thinking of the board of commissioners if we open up bargaining to the public and we need a tax increase. The voters will be more likely to approve a tax increase. If we can tell them that we bargained in the public well local six ninety hears about this and immediately asked the county to rescind its recent resolution the county refuses and then the to sit down and in january of two thousand seventeen. Have a very strange bargaining session The bargaining session is attended by a reporter. So it's open to the public or at least it starts that way. Local six ninety announces that disagrees with holding the meetings in public and was not waving its position but that it was willing to talk for awhile and the parties actually come to tentative agreements on several issues but then because of the presence of the reporter they decide they're not gonna talk about others and when they got to those harder issues the sheriff so a member of the employer's bargaining team asked whether or not six local six ninety and the county could discuss those harder issues in private bargaining and in fact they went off and they discussed those issues privately so in february two thousand seventeen a month later local six ninety passes its own resolution. Didn't know unions passed resolutions by local. Six ninety did and this resolution which was passed without notice to the county required all bargaining to be done in private and then the parties show up for their next bargaining session. The county says we want a bargain in public local. Six ninety says we want to bargain in private that county says unless we bargain and public were not bargaining local. Six ninety says unless we bargain and private. We're not bargaining and the meeting ends and both sides go off and file unfair labor practice complaints with washington's public employment relations commission alleging that the other is failing to bargain in good faith so washington's perk has to kind of unravel this mess and the first thing. It does perks as a both of you. Committed unfair labor practices because the procedures used for bargaining sorts of procedures that are normally a captured by ground rules. The procedures used for bargaining are not themselves mandatory topics for bargaining. Neither of you can insist on a non mandatory subject of bargaining over the objection of the other and we have ruled perk says for years and years and years and by the way So labor boards and commissions in every state. That i've seen we have ruled the ground. Rules and bargaining procedures are not mandatory for bargaining. So what is perk. do about the situation. What's the remedy per tells the parties. You need to go back and in need to negotiate in good faith over whether you're going to have public bargaining if you can't agree after two sessions perk will send a mediator to assist you. And if mediation fails perk says. Then you've got to go back to the status quo. And the last bargaining which was private bargaining. Both sides appealed to the washington. Court of appeals and the washington court of appeals largely. Upholds perks decision. I say largely because it doesn't uphold the remedy decision so first of all on the merits. Did the parties commit unfair labor practice complaints. are unfair labor practices and perks as they did. You know laws been around forever that ground rules and bargaining procedures are not mandatory for bargaining county raises the objection that the way we do bargaining is and i'm quoting at the core of entrepreneurial control that is a management right And the washington court of appeal says We don't actually agree with that We don't take either a managerial prerogative. Or union prerogative. It's simply a procedure. So therefore you both committed unfair labor practices but what about the remedy. The court of appeal says. Here's where perk made a mistake. And i thank the court may have gotten this one right Normally if you see a dispute between a labor board and a court on how to interpret labor laws usually the labor board is going to be right. But i actually think the court got this right. The court says you can't send back to the status quo meaning. Private bargaining can't send them back to the status quo As a remedy here because the status quo doctrine doesn't apply to non mandatory subjects of bargaining. It only applies to wages hours and working conditions. And we've just told you that ground rules. Bargaining procedures are not mandatory for bargaining. So we're going to send this case back to perk to reconsider what the appropriate remedy is Does the court give any suggestion as to what it thanks. The appropriate remedy might be it. It does but what the court suggests makes no sense at all if you look at this opinion and of course well were posts the opinion on our website. If you look at the opinion look for footnote five. And you'll see the court says you know what perked might do is send the party's arbitration over whether you're going to have public bargaining and the reason. I think that doesn't make any sense. You can't force are betray over a non mandatory subject of bargaining at least not in the context of negotiating a new contract. I think perk is going to have a huge challenge here when it gets this case back as to the ramsey that it ends up awarding. It's very very difficult. Because at the heart of everything here is a non mandatory subject bargaining a ground rural a bargaining procedure and. i can't imagine if the if perk can't restore the status quo. I actually can't think of what perkin do. I welcome everybody suggestions. And i'll pass them onto the litigants in this case on both sides and welcome anybody's idea as to what the remedy possibly could be in this case now The solution of course is If you want public bargaining he had don't try to get it through the bargaining process. You go to the legislature and you have the legislatures specify usually in its public records law that or public meeting slot bargaining sessions or open to the public washington. Doesn't have that sort of law And the you can see the court basically. And there's a concurring opinion. That i think is pretty thoughtful. In this case you can see the majority and concurring opinions kind of pointing everybody towards the legislature to fix whatever this is. We're going to head across the country to west virginia. For our next case it's a firefighter case And it's not particularly revolutionary. But i think it. It reminds all of us that if you don't like the result in case i'm about to describe the solution asks with the whole question of public bargaining is to go to the legislature to change what the underlying statute says this is a workers compensation case It involves a firefighter for the huntington fire department in west virginia. A guy by the name of john angle angle files. A workers compensation claim for post traumatic stress disorder and something that is referred to as compassion exhaustion disorder. So basically it's a ptsd claiming what angle says is. Look i have wetness all number of deaths and disturbing incidence in my career as a firefighter. And it's gotten much worse and has gotten much worse because of the opioid epidemic I go out on about four thousand calls a year. And i've seen all sorts of trauma. People dying people who have passed away. People were severely injured And now i have a very concrete set of symptoms that have been diagnosed as ptsd and those symptoms include difficulty sleeping nightmares. Irritability mood swings lack of compassion. You know many of the symptoms. That i think we're all familiar with of ptsd. And the city denies the workers. Compensation claim why the city points to a provision in the west virginia code and this is a provision of the code call section twenty three dash four. And here's what it says. No alleged injury or disease shall be recognized say compensable injury or disease which was solely caused by non-physical means and which did not result in any physical injury or disease to the person claiming benefits. And if that wasn't clear enough the statute goes on to say. It is the purpose of this section to clarify that so called. Mental mental claims are not compensable under this chapter and the west. Virginia supreme court upholds the denial of angles worker's compensation claim. Here's what the court says. I'm going to quote a couple of sentences from its opinion angle alleges that he developed ptsd as a result of years of work as a firefighter however angle also denied that any particular injury caused his post traumatic stress disorder all of angles symptoms and the requested our the associated diagnoses were caused by non-physical means and did not result in any physical injury or disease. The court says bottom line under this code section twenty three hyphen four. The claim was properly tonight now. Worker's compensation laws vary tremendously from state to state in some states On there is no requirement for a physical injury in other states There is a requirement for physical injury in some states Ptsd is specifically called out asa compensable condition at least for public safety employees police and fire as i mentioned at the outset of talking about this case the reason i bring it up as you need to check your state law see what the requirements are for not just ptsd but also could be chronic depression that has brought on by the job. Whatever it might be see what. The requirements are under your worker's compensation laws it may be time to update those laws next up i'd like to talk about a pennsylvania police officer Who had an unusual set of working conditions for a while. And i wanna talk about. Not just his case but Whether or not some other claims could have been brought in his case. So what's this all about. I'm not gonna t journey longer about it. This is officer michael. Feo cup of the philadelphia police department. He worked in forensic science unit and starting in two thousand fifteen or two thousand sixteen fee ohka and the other officers in the unit got access to the daily attendance record sheets of all officers in the unit. So any one of the officers could see the attendance records of any of the other officers in the unit. The oko was interested in the vacation and sick leave balances of other officers as well as the amount of overtime worked for every other officer worked by every other officer in the unit and when vioxx looks at those overtime records in particular he gets a little bit angry. He thinks he's wrong fully been denied overtime so he filed a lawsuit against the city in a lawsuit and state court alleging that he had been unlawfully denied overtime. The case is quickly settled. Let's call that the prior lawsuit by fielkow. Yeah there'll be another one in two thousand seventeen f- yoka and his lieutenant a fellow by the name of john conway fee ohka and conway have a conversation and conway is interested in the prior lawsuit. Puka says can't talk to you about that because under the terms of the settlement Everything that happened is confidential and then in very short order after that meeting feo realize that he no longer had access to the daily attendance. Record sheets f- yoka complaints to conway says what happened. How come i can't get these records anymore. Conway tells yoko that he terminated Feel access to the record sheets and conway says luck if you want access you need to write a letter to it. Downtown in order to get access focus speaks with it and it tells them you know what it wasn't just you conway terminated the access to these attendance records to everybody who is assigned to the unit And conway's later admits. Yep that's exactly what i did. I didn't think that non-supervisory employees should have records access to the attendance records belonging to other employees. And he he says. I terminated that access because i was concerned about the interests of privacy. Well ohka notices that. His coworkers aren't talking to him anymore and he gets upset about that. So he sends conway a series of messages. That contain remarks that. I think you can fairly call Insubordination Puka sends a message to another supervisor complaining about his loss of access to these records this message contains the statement quote. You can talk to conway dickhead. Yep that's what. I call them and tell a tell him that. He ratted on me like a little effing pussy that he is. You can see focus a little bit upset about this whole situation also told the supervisor meet me one on one and i will straighten your effing. Hass out well. Police inspector learns that this happened and tells coca you're being transferred you're being sent over to the delaware valley intelligence center and we're gonna take your gun away and for two months f- yoko worked at the centre. This intelligence center without His service weapon and while he's at the centre he was never given even one assignment he would show up for graveyard shift and his place of his reporting site was a warehouse. The lights would go off and foca would sit in a corner all by himself for eight hours during his shifts at the center of yoka was not allowed to use his phone. He later testified he quote couldn't even go to the bathroom because i couldn't see where the bathroom was. There were no lights on so for. Yoga brings a federal court lawsuit against the say alleging that the city retaliated against him in violation of his first amendment rights. What first amendment issue. What where's his speech Actually filing a lawsuit is considered to be speech protected by the first amendment so the fact that he filed that first lawsuit what is referred to as the prior lawsuit that speech that's potentially protected by the first amendment or is protected by the first amendment and focus gays Eventually gets hurt by federal court. Judge and the judge said well. It's not enough yoka that you're able to prove that you engaged in Protected speech you also have to prove a causal relationship between the speech and the act of retaliation clearly says the court assigning you to work in a corner and a dark room. I mean that that looks like the stuff of which a retaliation claim is made. But you gotta link-up up the two pieces of the puzzle. Here you've got a link up your filing the prior lawsuit and resolving it through the settlement and the act of retaliation. So how do you prove a causal connection in a case like this. The first event caused the second and in almost all of these cases. The proof is by. You very rarely find an employer that comes in and says yeah. We did this because he exercised his first amendment right instead. You're proving it by circumstantial evidence and what for ohka tries to do is to say. There is temporal proximity between the prior lawsuit and the act of retaliation here and you can infer discrimination if two events are very close in time to each other. The federal court says me mile. You're right and you're wrong f- yoka you're right tackle. Proximity can be the basis to infer a causal connection. But you weren't close enough in time here. And i'm quoting almost three months passed between focus refusal to discuss the prior lawsuit and the city's first alleged adverse employment action and intervening temporal period of three months between protected activity and an adverse employment is not unusually suggestive of retaliatory motive and is insufficient to establish the requisite causal connection What would be close enough in time to court sites other opinions where the distance in time between the protected activity and the act of retaliation was a matter of days. Not weeks not months courts. Really don't like these temporal proximity arguments. All that much. They usually will fail. You see that happen now. I told you there was another way potentially to address this issue and that would have been through the bargaining process. Right would the assignment of fee. Okay to a corner of dark warehouse on the graveyard shift. was that be a change in status quo about a mandatory subject of bargaining. Well let's assume first of all that it's a change in status quo that the philadelphia police department doesn't have a pass practice of assigning officers to dark corners of dark warehouses. But would that assignment be a mandatory subject to bargaining. The city would not be allowed to make without discharging its bargaining obligation in most states. Yes in most states and assignment of this sort Under these very very unusual working conditions would have been mandatory for bargaining. And there's no indication in this opinion whether or not Feo kaz union Insisted on bargaining and whether anything happened in that regard but that would have been another way to handle this issue. You see these issues. Come up from time to time in the fire service more than you do with a police. You see firefighters who hit at least. They're claiming in an act of retaliation are forced to cut the lawn or are on put on latrine duty for months at a time. But you don't see these. These sorts of cases goes cassette and dark warehouse You don't see them on the police side very often. So there's not a lot of law in the area but at any rate the case is a good reminder that The whole notion of temporal proximity between protected activity and an act of alleged retaliation that has to be very very close in time. The last case. I want to talk about today Involves a kind of a technical question. When isn't that federal. Clean taft to be arbitrated under a grievance procedure in a collective bargaining agreement. And we've got this kind of fascinating case. That comes out of a pekan. I hope i'm pronouncing that correctly. Illinois the police department and pecan illinois john. Berks gregory simmons are two police officers In pekan brooks and simmons sue the city and they sue a number of department employees in federal court And they say look. Our troubles are woes began. simmons one of the two plaintiffs made an internal complaint against his shift. Commander a fella named gregory rebirths that prompted a fourth individual a police officer by the name of jennifer. Melton to make a false accusation against simmons. The person who made the complaint against the lieutenant brooks was ordered to investigate Mountains complaints against brooks thought. That mountains claims were not true and things kind of spun out of control and eventually the city terminates both brooks and simmons and they bring the lawsuit. I know that's a little bit complicated but that's factual situation that unwound the lawsuit. That brooks and simmons filed had a number of claims. I only wanna talk about one of them. But it had a whole bunch of them including a claim that brooks had a disability. That was protected by the americans with disabilities act and the city failed to reasonably accommodate is disability. There were retaliation claims. There were claims that they were the victims of age discrimination garden variety title seven claim and miscellaneous other statutory and constitutional claims They they the two of them clearly opened the book on How can i sue the. Let me count the ways in terms of the number of claims that they brought And before the litigation goes too far the city files. What's known as a motion to stay and emotion to stay means. Let's hold these federal court. Proceedings and a bands pandang a grievance the resolution of a grievance that was filed by one of the two plaintiffs filed by simmons. Simmons had turns out had filed his grievance filed a grievance under his collective bargaining agreement claiming That he was terminated without just cause and that grievance was headed to or actually was at arbitration and the city in filing the motion. I says look under the federal arbitration act. The faa is. it's called The litigation has to be staged so that arbitration can do its thing and a federal court. Judge rejects the city's argument. And what the court ends up finding is that while the faa the federal arbitration act does cover some employment agreements They have the employment agreements have to involve the same claims. That are being litigated in federal court. So that panoply of different claims that sevens and burks had here. They had to be the topic of simmons grievance and this is the court says this is where the city's argument a fails the court Holds that and i'm quoting. It is understandable Why the defendants the city focus more on simmons termination as a reason to stay the proceedings against him. But in fact the termination is the only factor in common between the arbitration proceedings and his federal lawsuit. The court says the arbitration proceeding is on a contract clause. That requires just cause for discipline. Nothing in the collective bargaining agreement requires the arbitration of all these other claims. The ada claim the title. Seven claim the age discrimination in employment act claim and in order for the federal arbitration to kick in and require me. The court says the judge says to stay these proceedings. Those claims would have to be the subject of the arbitration hence. The arbitration can go forward and these court proceedings will go forward. There is no and here's the tests that the court uses. There is no clear and unmistakable waiver in the collective bargaining agreement of simmons rights to a judicial forum for his federal claims of employment discrimination. No waiver no stay so with that Thank you for joining us for the first two thousand twenty one First thursday podcast. We've had the opportunity to record I'm sure i speak for everybody. And saying twenty one has to be better than twenty twenty right We're getting very encouraged at aller. Is by the fact that we are getting a number of seminar registrations. We are starting our seminars up again in. May and las vegas It looks like we're going to be back at full strength hopefully in a couple of months With our staff all recalled from they're very very part time status. Been very difficult to run a seminar business when you can't actually hold separate hers And were encouraged by The words of support that many of you have sent in so with that I look forward to next month's first thursday we'll have a new round two cases This is well aitchison signing off.

yoka washington court of appeals ohka conway new york times washington national bureau of economics r lincoln county freedom foundation Puka ptsd public employment relations co perk legislature west virginia aitchison washington court of appeal
#492 - Smalley Short: Covid Parade

Dogma Debate

35:15 min | 1 year ago

#492 - Smalley Short: Covid Parade

"Skip the commercials and get extra long shows with behind the scenes access at Patriot dot com slash. David C. Smalley. For more than ten years, he's built a reputation of exploring the leafs and changing lives. And with today's division, it's time to resurrect new aunt. And bring back the art of conversation. They'll make you laugh. You may upset you. But most importantly. He'll make you think. From Los Angeles California. This is David C slowly. You're. Welcome. To the show, these unexpected ones are some of my favorite because they just get either. So irritated by something we're so inspired by something that I just I just WanNa do a quick podcast and so a long time ago I started doing these versions of the show called smalley shorts. and. I would just throw together like a thirty minute twenty, five minute thing of my thoughts on something and I'm going to be doing that more often because I just there's so much going on in the political world that I'm going to have to chime in from time to in between the Christian and skeptic discussions. So be sure your subscribed be sure you tune in and download the shows because there's going to be a lot coming at you. and. I'm so excited about this one because trump just. Left Walter Reed Hospital to wave at people and then went back in and I just kept thinking how nervous are the secret service guys in the car with him what is going on and so I reached out to the great powerful Michael Gilio and asked him to join with this quick short Michael. It's so good to have you man I'm so glad you're able to call in. Michael Are we? Somebody starting now. Oh God wait. Ladies Gentlemen. Michael Julia. Hey Man. I don't work without my applause Dave I know I apologize Sir I forgot I. Keep that to a minimum in the future, how you doing out there on the east side of the east side of the country there. Probably, I mean maybe. Probably the same as we're doing on the west side, these are crazy days. It just keeps getting crazier David I can't believe it's getting this crazy look. What just happened what we just both witnessed like you're the one person I can call when I see some crazy shit happen and I can go did you just you go? Of course taught like most people are like what happened? I was I was playing Bingo? What's going on Mike? No, there's. There's some craziness happening and I know you're out there watching it. I call you and we should start talking on the phone about what we're seeing and I'm like we should just record this The pattern here Michael is that Donald Trump repeatedly prioritizes public image. Over basically everything over safety over mean he could be educating the public right now on his status, there's confusing messages coming out of the White House they could be knocking out some sort of stimulus bill they could be they could be doing anything. There he's focused on prioritizing the public image putting people at risk, and then as as I'm shouting at the TV I, go we'll, of course, he's going to do this. He gassed peaceful protesters to go hold a Bible up in front of a church that doesn't like him. It's all about this public. Now there's this forever there's this video or some sort of image of him holding a Bible. Everybody's GonNa. Remember what it took to get that done I mean is this impressing the right people? Is it changing? Anybody's mind what in the hell is going on with him? Well, let's not kid ourselves David not for the public image. He is prioritizing donald trump ahead of everybody it's not even the public image. He is he prioritizing his ego above all else and I'll tell you something I'm sure that those secret service members would have preferred tear gas in that car to an infected person a man who has covet that's crazy I don't care what mask you have. No doctor in the world would recommend getting into a closed car with an infected person regardless of the mask heaven it is insanity. Yeah. They were apparently, they were wearing a gowns like medical gowns on top of their clothing. And we're wearing ninety five masks. But whenever you see the surgeons or doctors that are working in these covert units, they're wearing the gowns wearing gloves as well, and they're wearing the in ninety five masks and they have facials on and so and they're in, you know a hospital area, which is not as tightly enclosed in cramped as as as a as a vehicle and the sad thing about this is the world we're living in right now, we may never even know if those secret service agents. Get Cove vid like they may just hide that information from us. As they've been hiding it and one more thing David those surgeons I mean those doctors they have to be there it's necessary for them to be exposed. To cove it in order to help their patients though secret service members did not have to be there. That was a photo op in a crappy one at that the I saw in that many people on the island and I saw The result and this has been happening so fast I don't remember what I was watching her who it was, but some defender of trump came on and when pressed by a reporter on on why trump would put these people at risk these these secret service agents his reply was literally that secret service agents know that they put their life on the line for the president of the United States and I was so pissed I'm like, yeah, if he's being shot at not so he can go wave at people with trump banners. The there's gotta be. Some commonsense somewhere like are they not allowed to tell him? No, can they not say dude? No, I'm not I'm not going to get a car with you while you have a deadly highly contagious virus. Right and he his mask was not looks like just your average mask that I would have where you at have it didn't look anything particularly special. That's a good point. I didn't notice. I didn't pan. He was wearing the regular black cloth masks dark blue presidential one. So. Yeah. He he wasn't even wearing the in ninety five. Wow. Yeah meaning how Conspiratorial. There it looks like people are being told to keep their covert results secret as with Kellyanne Conway who who kept it from her own daughter and the daughter has tested positive. So I just found that out from you on the phone, and that was one of the things that made me go. We gotTA talk about this. So I have followed her daughter on Tiktok before the world you know before it all blew up and everybody knew about her and I was getting like. You, know you never WANNA quote a sixteen year old girl is your source but she would talk on Tiktok very openly about what was going on between her mom and dad how disagreed about trump and how she loves her mom and dad but there's some stuff going on in the family and be me be me following these things. So closely of wondered like, how can you know her husband? Right? All of these terrible things about trump and his mental state and How he's unfit to be president than she goes on television on CNN and fights reporters in you know and and willing to die on the hill for trump I'm like what must those dinners at home be like like that's gotta be rough I mean I I used to wonder that about Arnold Schwarzenegger and his wife like Republican. Democrat. Look I'll bet they have policy disagreements that must be fun. This is brutal. He was nothing like like it is. Now you know when that was going on now they are divorced by the way but but I mean long-term you're like what's going on in that family? I did not know that Kellyanne Conway did not tell her daughter and I also did not know her daughter. Caught. Cova. Seen Videos I guess she hasn't been popping up on my page. I haven't really spent that much time on it, but this was shocking when you told me that. So trump is now telling people not to share the information. Right well, I mean, we know that we don't know that of it when I say, we know that I mean Maggie Haberman at the New York Times as saying that she's talking to sources I believe these people when I read reporters from the New York Times when I re reporters from the Washington Post saying that they have sources inside for instance, the secret. Service somebody from the New York from I think the post was saying that they just talked to somebody at the secret service WHO said off the record? This is insanely reckless and dangerous what he's doing to our fellow agents I believe them. Then when they say they have these sources. Now, if you understand, you know journalistic standards work of course, you believe. No reporter would lay the reputation on the line or the reputation of their publication on the line to tell a lie like that. They say they have these of they have the sources. And we know that the whole picks thing they were trying to keep it under wraps and according to sources. Trump was pissed that hopes that hope Hicks leaked that she had covert because it makes him look back. He was exposed to somebody with covert and went and did fundraisers. So are they now saying that she was they knew she was positive and they quoting cloth they quarantined her on Air Force One in a separate room and they thought that was gonna be good enough. That I haven't heard of I heard that she was not feeling well on Air Force. One I? Don't know that they corn tinder. She had a positive result at that time, but they should have been concerned but they did find out she was positive before trump went to the fundraisers knees bent three aware that he had been exposed to somebody I mean when I say exposed I mean really exposed aims closed quarters. Yes she was face. Yeah, and I think she was on the she was on the helicopter to. Marine One as well. Yeah. So. He knew he was in close quarters with somebody who had cove at and he had been exposed to it and he went to those fundraisers anyway. Now reporting coming out now is that he knew that he already had a positive one, the the quick result, the the quick test he had the positive result before he went on Sean Hannity the other night he knew that in. So I mean. It's it is a crime. If somebody with a sexually transmitted disease willingly goes out and gives it to somebody else. That this is raising a question. Is it a crime? If you know that you have cove it and you willingly go out and give it to other people which he may well have done Chris Christie is in the hospital he's overweight and has asthma I'm concerned for that Man's health. Hell Chris Christie Three Republican senators. Yes I think they're up to eleven total confirmed cases what they're now calling the super spreader event, which was the confirmation not confirmation but the. What do they call it the hearing with Komi Barrett Yeah. The introduction, the the nomination nominations, the nominees. And all. So so you had trump is obviously being irresponsible here right and and we can say you know, is it that he didn't take the virus seriously will know you can hear from his conversations back in February with Bob Woodward. He obviously took it seriously he was obviously saying there's this thing is dangerous. There's a lot going on here but. Then, he downplays it to the American people. So what is what do you think is going through his head when he knows he's been exposed to somebody who has a positive result and goes on with fundraiser anyway, and let me just let me just pause for a moment and tell you this. This kind of reminds me. Of. Let's say the. The A. Fifteen year old boys you know watching his seven-year-old sister. While mom and dad are getting groceries. And the rough housing and they're playing and. He pushes his little sister off the bed. She falls and just catches the corner of a table and a huge gashes in her head. She's bleeding. That fifteen year old is immediately going to go. Oh No I don't WanNA. Get in trouble for this. You're okay you're okay. You're okay. You're okay. You're okay. Don't tell mom don't tell mom. When the child clearly needs medical attention. And the the kids thinking. Well, if I call nine, one one in thing shows up and then it's just a bump that happens to be bleeding a little. Then I'm going to get in all this trouble because the you know my mom's going to trust me to be home by myself. It's all about him. Him Him him him when if he were to call his mom. He's afraid. He's GonNa get in trouble. Why are you paying too hard why you're playing too rough BUBBA. So it's all about I don't want to get in trouble I don't WanNa get in trouble. So I'm going to withhold potential help from other people even if even if I have to drag you down with me I don't want you to know my bad behavior caused harm. Because if I can get away with this and I never have to tell anybody I'm GonNa, go to my grave with this secret. And I. think that's what's going on here when we see. Hope Hicks and Kellyanne. Conway, it's well, if trump cancels the fundraiser. CNN's going to lose their shit asking why why was trips suddenly cancelled? What's going on what's going on? We don't want CNN sniffing around here. We don't want NPR knocking on the door saying, why was the fundraiser canceled by the way we really need those funds that are going to be raised. So because by the Biden campaign I believe is out raising them. So it's like how how can we just let's? Just, Go let me just I'll just go in raise the money and I can't act. I can't put on a mask suddenly and stay six feet away from everybody and act like suddenly taking this seriously that'll be too suspicious that the liberals got to me. So he's the fifteen year old that just goes along with daily life allowing other people to be harmed. So he doesn't get called into question for his behaviors. I think it's partly that I also think that it's done buying their own hype. I. Mean we've seen all these mass quist rallies. This is that's that was the moment that I said they believe it's not that they just that they're saying. To Heck with these these these doctors that the covert thing is hurting my dear leader trump. Going to those rallies masks watching Herman Cain die from going to a rally and I'm still doing it. They buy the hype I think trump saw Louie gohmert with a positive to Cova. and. He was basically a symptomatic Kimberly Guilfoil. We know was positive. She was basically a symptomatic. It didn't spread to Don Jr. her boyfriend I, think trump's ed I'm probably going to be symptomatic. We can keep this under wraps. It's fine. Remember he said at a rally not long ago it doesn't really affect them any people he thought that was him. He thought he was going to be a symptomatic he could get away with it and just go on. He bought his own hype that that. Sad though too. That's sad though to that that really just highlights the selfishness of this man right? Because he's thinking if he's a symptomatic, he never has to tell anybody. So he's at an event potentially infecting other people who could be immune compromised and. Care because nobody will ever know it came back to him because he never had symptoms. So he can just look like he he he just never gets it even though he keeps going to these events where people suddenly end up with it, he never gets it. So clearly, he has a superior sort of you know immune system when in fact, he's the one infecting other. People that that that mindset I think is really disturbing. It's all about him. Even if you get hurt in, you can take that formula and you can play that out over the Ukraine impeachment. You can play that out over the gassing the protesters for the Damn Bible photo op you could play out over a pre existing conditions being challenged in court while he's going on. Television saying he's not actually doing it when he's in court doing it I mean you can take this over over paying the porn star to stay quiet about the affair it. He doesn't. It just doesn't matter who is on cheating on his while wife while was she pregnant or just had the baby I mean this is i. think she just had the baby yet this. Whole Concept of Donald Trump trying to sweep things under the rug and make things look a certain way that he wants them to look. Even if other people get hurt, this is the issue of integrity that I keep driving home on twitter and I keep ruffling Republican feathers over it because not nudge rugged others but people who were gonNA protest voter vote though Third Party I'm just like you're on a sinking boat. On a sinking boat and you're refusing to scoop water out because you don't like this boat anyway like that is the most selfish thing and then every time I say that I hate messages how you think you're GonNa call me selfish and I'm going to suddenly vote you're being selfish. You just are you just being selfish if you honestly don't see how little integrity Donald Trump has would a terrible human being he is and putting Joe Biden, there is going to give us an adult in charge. So we can start working on repairing the broken system and I'm GONNA fight with them until election day and I'll fight with them the next election and I have this damn fight on this show every four years I'm so sick of it. But it's not Republicans anymore it's cult it's the trump colt. So many Republicans are on our side. So all the never trumpers what is never trumper. Republican what's a rhino? That's a Republican those are people who see it the way we see. Or you're not Lincoln frankly. Yet Lincoln Exact John Conway. We've already mentioned it's. It's gone from Coltish to death cultish at this point it's getting really bad. It's getting really weird. And this is where we are I mean. Jonestown ain't nothing compared to two hundred, thousand debt. Now, you can't put two, hundred thousand on them, but maybe a hundred thousand. I said today and you re tweeted me I said maybe if Donald Trump had told us the truth about corona. Virus whoever gave it to him would have been wearing a mask. Who wasn't taking it seriously why wasn't that person taking it seriously because of Donald Trump Donald trump gave it to himself. And to be fair, there are people. Took a lot of precautions and still ended up with a new with the way. This thing is spreading you and I could end up with the same virus You can't be one hundred percent safe all the time you can wear the mask, but you know what you may you know your kid comes home and and maybe they talked to a guy outside and couldn't understand. Pulled his mask down for three seconds. You just you never really know but constantly going to events especially, indoor events especially crowded events with no masks inside or very few masks inside your just over the top increasing your potential risk and that's what that's what trump has done rum and there's insider report saying that he says in meetings do people take that mask off you look ridiculous. We've seen him say to reporters take the mask off I can't hear you. Well, you know what? How about reiterate that speak louder I can't hear you don't take them back off. Yeah I was watching one time where some conservative reporter got up without a mask on trump made the comment. Oh, I can finally understands you. Yeah. Do you think this is going to change his. Is Is. He going to start wearing a mask mask in public is he going to start? Is there any fiber of adulterous in there that's going to have him come out and give a very somber serious message about the dangers of this disease and how deadly it is and and how everybody needs to be careful and really sympathizes or in fact empathizes with people who've struggled with his virus is there anything like that in the future? Do you think? Well I will say this again it this is reporting but that at the White House before he boarded Marine One to go to Walter Reed the other day they're saying that he was really really scared. And he was saying is this how I'm going out? Is this the end of me that he was really scared? That's the kind of fear you. When you put in somebody, they will reconsider I mean we know how the human mind works and you need you need to shock the system to change your your point of view. But. If there's one thing we know about Donald trump is that he's never wrong. Never apologizes he doesn't even ask God for forgiveness. Right. So so so I I think there may in my opinion I think there'll be something, but it'll be that weird cadence. He does when someone else wrote the speech where he rocks side to side until his head and goes this virus is one of the most dangerous things to ever happen and it came from China by the way it came from China. It's the chain of virus and you need. To Be careful NBC Save, and then he just going to go off on his own. So anytime, he does that high tone sort of its that Trevor Noah style trope in brushing when he does that he's reading someone else's words and that's when he makes the most sense and then he breaks from that his voice drops a half an octave and then he gets into the real trump and you know. China tried to kill. Me didn't work anyway please be careful. I just I know I think if there's anything sensible coming from him, it's going to be in a situation like that I don't. I don't think he's going to sincerely. And the reason I thought the reason I think that Michael is because of the video he did just before he went on his Co. parade and waved at people he did a video and in that video is like you know there's What did he say there's I've learned a LOT ABOUT CORONA VIRUS I've learned a lot and. It's it's I went to the real school. You know not to school with books. The real school and I'll be telling you about it and I'm like, wait a minute scientists. Medical experts have been telling everybody about it for months and are you now saying this to the people that you know only believe you? So you've been calling FAO CI Aligarh. Arguing with these medical experts all this time and downplaying the virus and mocking people who wear masks, and now you're going to tell us about the virus the you mean, the Shit you've been ignoring for eight months. That's what you're finally going to tell us in our and sadly Michael I think that for the most of his supporters. He's probably GONNA be giving them new information. Yeah. Well, I mean his supporters I mean I'm trying to follow their logic right now because it is all over the place, these are mental gymnastics. These are pretzels they are tying their brains into trump did it for us? He bravely went out there and did it for us to defend freedom that's why he has corona. I've also seen supporters say, isn't it? The here's the conspiracy theory for you. Isn't it weird that only Republicans are getting it Only Republicans are ignoring. Of the CDC in fact, it makes perfect sense that only Republicans are getting it. Dude. I will tell you I. Don't I don't talk about stuff like this often and I I rarely notice when I gain or lose followers on on social media. Just typically don't pay that much attention in the numbers aren't usually big enough for me to for me to notice anyway. But I did notice that I dropped about four hundred followers because my I went from a point. League. Was Point Seven. To like a point. I think it was point seven point three or something around the maybe maybe closer to five hundred. But What does that sound? Car. Are you hot. Now it was a, it's a pre it. So it's slow kicks in. So my I've turned off. I. I did a whole tweet where I was talking about I called it the Republican virus. And people got so upset with me but. I think one guy was even like if usually one political party is responsible for this fire, I was like okay. Clearly you're not getting the joke here that I'm mocking the concept that he called it the China virus, right so that was the whole point I was like I said, hey guys, have you heard about this Republican virus? Any of US can technically get it but now it seems to target Republicans who refuse to wear Max Masks? And would rather present their own personal freedoms than protect the people around them. Be careful out there Hashtag Republican virus and got a ton of tweets and people were so upset and I lost about four hundred followers and I I tend to think it's probably the four hundred I wanted to lose to be honest with you is saves me from having to to block people who get insane on my posts but Yeah. Of course, the it's the people who mocked the virus and never wear masks and and go to indoor campaign rallies and you know little like there were seats tied like Zip tied together at trump events. Like we're not talking three feet of space five or six feet we're talking literally Zip tied together even if they're outdoors. I I'm not. And by the way, this the super spreader of it that are talking about at the Rose Garden No, there were receptions like after the event with parties where people were inside. So yeah. So we don't even know that it happened outside. You know this this very likely could have happened, and then you've got Mike Lee Hugging people and all this. I mean Yeah Republicans, are getting it. But now the conspiracy is going to be that what? What? Democrat Antiga Snuck into the Rose Garden and sprayed everybody with covid spray. Yeah I guess. So and by the way, there's a few varieties of what you were talking about. When you call Republican virus, there's also trump flew which. Is Trending, and White House virus. So. Take Your pick turnaround you play I guess but is or we go with Michelle Obama and when they go low, we go high at this point I don't know actually I mean look this is one of those shows where you know we probably should have started off by saying we wish the president and the first lady full recovery we are our prayers are with you know no, I'm not I'm not there I mean, yeah, I hope he gets better I really do because I want I want the Democrats to beat him fair and square. Just like if I, were you know I was fighting in Jujitsu tournaments I didn't want my opponent showing up limping right with a pulled muscle or camping i. don't WanNa find someone who's not ready. I wanted to be fair I. Don't want someone to call me and debate with me after they've had three shots of Tequila I want your brain to be firing on all cylinders when we sat down and talk about this. So yes, I do hope trump gets better and and I hope Melania has has a speedy recovery. But. How do you not see the irony in this of them trying to rush through this Supreme Court nomination the how. Trump was to Hillary Clinton when she had her stumble or was getting pneumonia or whatever. And now Biden is being very presidential in respectful and being sweet him. In fact, Biden's even cut down all of the negative ads against trump while in the hospital yet. Batteries cut down all the comparative ads as well. He's taken trump out of his ads. Oh. Wow. No, it's not even negative. Just ones where Donald Trump says this I say this he's taken those down to it's just Biden Biden, Biden ads now. So then they only feature him. So then the question is then. The trump campaign is still doing slam pitches against Biden all day they haven't stopped any of their negative ads against Biden and by the way. Trump I think I think it's a camp casino campaign adviser went on CNN today and said, and called Biden's mask a prop. He said he just wears it as a prop. And Make Fun of him saying Oh he's two hundred feet away from people. He started reiterating the nonsense that trump was spewing during the debate still to this day while trump is in the hospital with Kovin his his senior campaign adviser is on CNN mocking Biden for wearing a mask and calling it a prop I'm I'm just like cou could we be in two separate? In anymore different worlds, we have one campaign acting like the adults in the room and one just throwing handfuls of shit with no rules whatsoever. In you're going. At some point if Biden doesn't play like if you don't fight fire with fire, you might just glues and get steamrolled and on the other end you have your own integrity and principles and values. So what do you think Biden should do take the high road keep it going even if if even if it risks losing the election or should he get into the mud and and fight back with trump? I mean get into the mud no not not not in the out in the sense that when we say trump gets into the mud, not trump not not like trump. No but he should be attacking him at every turn right now he should have. There is a lot of calls for him this very our people are all over twitter saying dude by needs to get out and make a speech right now pointing out how reckless and dangerous and stupid that was for him to get into a vehicle with those secret service agents and put them at risk for his own ego he needs to call him out. I don't know what Biden will do it I mean he's trying to show what it means to be presidential and I get that. That is actually strategy all as much as he may be a lovely guy and a good Catholic. He doesn't WANNA kick trump rallies down he also is showing a contrast by what he's not doing. Trump would be attacking trump would have already called for Biden to drop out at this point we know it everybody knows it. Biden is trying to shows what it means to look presidential. act, president trump would be calling him. We could be mocking him. He'd be fake coughing. He'd be doing all kinds of disgusting behavior. We know that your trump trump trump is a school yard bully and and I I. I don't understand. There are thoughtful respectful people who listen to this show who engage me on twitter who disagree with me politically but are kind decent people and I cannot understand for the life of me why they are casting a vote for a man with seemingly no morals and no integrity. It's a mystery, it is a mystery There's an article in business insider yesterday, which basically said that trump supporters have luxuriating the last five years in trump's cruelty the cheered him on and the fact that they are now acting shocked and hurt that some liberals are doing the same. Now with trump's the they're being cruel towards trump. They're making jokes about him while he's down, it's they've lost the moral high ground I mean even I have to say shut up you don't have the right to get offended. You've lost that right to be offended and there are cruel jokes out there that I personally would not make me to in public. Well. We'll see about that stand up comedy comes back. We'll just see. Yeah because we both know that the two of us on stage are all almost completely different people we will say, yeah, a terrible things in a comedy setting that we wouldn't say you know when we're being ourselves. of course but that's a different thing that we're not trying to. You know we're the point of comedian is not to be thoughtful I mean it could be to be thoughtful but is not it is to be. It is to a ultimately illicit a laugh and sometimes you do it through shock and awe and you do it through saying the exact opposite of one would expect you to say. Well, I want everyone to know. Michael Julia's dedication to this even though he won't speak until applauses played I will tell you that he just got back from getting dinner. and. Everybody that you're with is up there eating right now in your down in the car doing the show with me. So I want them to know how how dedicated you are to this. Thank you Sir for joining me on this today. Thank you Sir tell you give them your website real quick if they just WanNa, follow you and stop following me because that tends to happen. Sometimes Michael Rogelio Comedy Dot Com by latest episode of plagues well, Michael Gilio plagues well with other features. My friends have reo Guevara who was MOCHA JOE on Curb your enthusiasm, a hilarious character and he was one of the stars of the last season and he goes off on trump. So if you like hearing people go off on trump's Vario does not disappoint. Awesome. Sounds Great. All Right Michael thank you so much I. Know You need this? Thanks Buddy I appreciate you. Thank you. Guys, as always the conversation continues at Patriotair. Dot Com slash David C smalley, and if you still want to support the show, you can go to David Sees Molly dot com, click store and do all your shopping and shop like you know each other and if you're not gonNA, join us over on patriotic at least please drive like you know each other.

Donald Trump trump Biden Biden Michael Kellyanne Conway trump president reporter David C. Smalley twitter Michael Julia CNN Michael Gilio leafs David I White House David Mike Lee Walter Reed Hospital corona
John & Ken Show Hour 4 (06/09)

John and Ken on Demand

34:28 min | 3 months ago

John & Ken Show Hour 4 (06/09)

"John and ken show john kobylt ken. Chiampou kfi am six forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. I will fill you in on what's going on in venice and the response to the la county sheriff. Alex vivas sending in some of his deputies yesterday to begin to talk to the homeless people about moving them on. There has been a response media outlets covered. What occurred yesterday. Predictably they went to everybody. That said it's just a stunt stunt. Well some finish. Residents are relieved and hopeful yet will mark down all the people who made these derogatory comments. And we'll see on the fifth of july but the truth is or what the how the process sheriff says. He wants a moved out by the fourth of july. If i were these These people. I wouldn't say that they publicly. I ought to be making any predictions. We're gonna talk with dr marty. Mccarey on Marty mccarey excuse me. He's a professor at the john. Johns hopkins school of medicine author of the book the price we pay what broke american healthcare and had a fixed. It just out in paperback and he had a piece in the wall street journal and he thinks that eighty to eighty five percent of americans are immune to the virus that we already have herd immunity if you add up the people who got vaccinated plus the people who got infected and have the natural beauty. Antibodies can talk about reports and studies. That say that if you have had covid nineteen maybe you don't need the vaccine or maybe just one shot. Let's get him on and talk about all this stuff. Dr marty mccarey welcomed the john and ken show. How are you. Hey john and ken good to be with you guys. I have read your stuff for quite a while whenever you had an article published and you were always seem to make sense. We seem very logical and not hysterical and It's good to hear what you're writing on this particular issue. So so Take us through the percentages. Why you think we hit herd immunity. Well sixty four percent of adults have been Vaccinated now it's released one dose of the vaccine so sixty percent of adults and of the remaining thirty six percent about half have natural immunity from prior infection and we know that from a lot of zero prevalence studies. You may have seen that california announced about a month ago that Forty five percent of la residents have antibodies in their system back in february and so we can extrapolate. There's a lot of infections since february till today and it tastes kind for those antibodies to build. So it's about half of folks have natural immunity from prior infection now in the past the medical establishment totally dismissed it in their group. Think the same group thing that kind of dismissed the la- luhan lab theory and it turns out that data's coming out now from the cleveland clinic from washington university showing definitively natural immunity. For as long as it's been around and it's strong and powerful and it's real. How long do you think it will be effective in people's bodies. I think lifelong. I think if you've had tova and i'm not talking about just a mile symptomatic. Nothing but he. If you were sick you had at least a you know an illness. That your body revved up those. Antibodies and that immunity is lifelong and in fact this researchers at washington university said the same thing they believe it's long lasting. And if you look at the spanish flu of nineteen eighteen. There were a group of survivors in two thousand and five that were studied by five universities and this publication showed that even though it was almost nine decades later they still had memory b cells and memory t cells that were able to make those antibodies. That's pretty remarkable. The human body is amazing and if somebody had an e symptomatic ace dick. Don't have that kind of robust antibody reaction. We just don't know how good it is now. I think it probably is good but in that situation i would say. Get at least one dose of the vaccine. We just have less information on it. But if you look at the cleveland clinic study that just looked at one thousand. Three hundred healthcare workers who had the infection in the past looked at how many of them got the infection again. The answer was zero so any positive cova test. If it's accurate shows that you have natural immunity and so far we have not seen infections. And what's your take on those of us who presumably never got infected with nineteen have been fully vaccinated. How long do you think of beauty is good for. Nobody knows but i think probably. It's also lifelong now. If you're an older person with a weak immune system for you are immunosuppressed. Safe from an organ transplant in those people. Were actually probably going to get to a booster recommend a third. We're already doing it now. For organ transplant folks were giving him a third dose. And so you know everyone's different but the younger you are the better. The system works and that's why in healthy kids. I only recommend one dose instead of the two doses you talked about the group think Surrounding the wuhan lab leak story and also this Whether people got natural immunity after covid infection and and this group think and much of it is turning out to be wrong is disconcerting to a lot of people because everybody wants to trust the medical establishment It's they're supposed to be the good guys. They're not supposed to be behaving like politicians with all kinds of disinformation and multiple interpretations. What's going on here i. I don't remember. I don't remember medical science people acting like this before. I mean i've heard about guys getting death threats if they if they dare publicize a controversial viewpoint something has changed dramatically as it not cancel culture has moved into science unfortunately and it's a tragedy. We gotta fight it. But i mean you look at some of these issues today. We can't even talk about without getting destroyed. I mean look at the massive surge in transgender surgery. We i'm not saying i'm for or against it but there's folks who are getting it who are not candidates. They've been convinced that they should have. We can't even talk about it so we got to address this cancel culture. Facebook had a fact checker on the wu. Han lab stuff and you know who was it. Dr peter that the guy that the nih funded to give the money to the lab. That's the kind of stuff that's driving us crazy. He was a fact checker. I didn't know that i didn't know that either. I know he was behind the. Let's play somebody on the inside. Yeah he was behind the letter that they published in the lancet with twenty seven others saying that There was no evidence at all. Let's talk about masking because that's a topic here in california especially with we have the cow occupational safety and health board. Take a look again at whether the fully vaccinated need to wear masks in certain situations. What's your take on us. No absolutely not look. We've got to reestablish a human connection in life. we can't have a mass society for an infection where the risk of somebody who's fully vaccinated is lower than the risk of getting str- struck by lightning. And that's the absurdity of where we've come we've been totally distorted perception risk. What's the what's the risk to somebody who has unvaccinated in the room with the unmasked vaccinated person well if somebody's unvaccinated. They're living their life without a mask at their own risk at this point. Everybody's had the opportunity to get the vaccine. That's over age. Sixteen and folks under sixteen are at very low risk of serious illness and very inefficient transmitters to the infection. So you know we can always live in a shell saying. Hey bacterial meningitis. Kills thirteen people every year. Therefore stay in your homes and when you go out where a spacesuit but we're losing an entire generation we've got developmental delays. We've got poor kids that are affected disproportionately but because wealthy people are busy. Renovating their homes during covid. They seem to not care. We've got to address profound social isolation because it's killing people and wanted to ask you this. We we saw report. Last was a survey of epidemiologists. And it seems like a high percentage of them are still taking incredible measures to protect themselves against covert of the nocco to ride in an airplane. They're still wiping down packages. Is that the problem here. That some people in the profession especially epidemiology are just way too conservative about the safety factors. I think people get fixated on the idea of a virus attacking them succumbing to it. When in fact there are many medical conditions out there. Were you could similarly get fixated even though they have a greater risk than covid right now in society and i think we just have distorted perception of risk. Let me give you an example. Four hundred thousand died of malaria the year before it does anyone care. I mean this idea that you know. Somehow it only matters if it's right in front of our eyes the opioid crisis. It didn't go away just because the media had something else to cover it. It is still a big problem but people perceive now that it's not really an issue because we don't have coverage we've been distorted perception arrest. The number of daily cova cases today in america is one fifty s the number of daily flu cases that we had in the middle of the mildest flu season in the last eight years. And you write in the wall street. Journal dr fauci said last august thirteenth. When you have fewer than ten cases per one hundred thousand you should be able to open up safely and clearly. The us reached that point in mid. May it seems like they do keep moving. The goal post we have experienced in california here to they've been moving the goalposts a lot And you know. I'm frustrated. But i had a rough week this week and i don't think he's going to be sending the christmas card. But as i said this morning on tennessee span washington journal. I don't question his intentions. I think he's a well-intended person who loves this country wants the best just made a lot of mistakes and i disagreed with him and personal. But i've pretty much been at opposite ends with him on every aspect of the pandemic mainly in warning the country that it was gonna hit and all these business leaders and mardi gras and south by south west and the ncw was. Hey wait a minute. that's your found. She doesn't seem to have this sort of sense of of you know i massive hsu nami about to hit us like you do dr mccarey and all of this false assurance that is emails. There's what she saw. Privately is what you saw publicly in. That is all of these people begging for his council and no sounding the alarm so you know calling for the lockdowns before this thing happened. Because i was nervous. We didn't know from gonna lose one percent of our kids in the united states and then soon after writing a piece in the new york times saying hey we gotta have a partially reopen society with masks. We cannot stay restricted. Like this It's a lonely place right. 'cause you get people angry at both extremes and the reality is we've had very bad medical leadership throughout. Oh dr mccarey. Thanks for coming on. We appreciate it and again. The book on paperback the price. We pay what broke american healthcare and how we can fix it. Thanks for talking to us. Thanks a lot to be with you guys. Thanks very much. dr martin. Macarry mccarey professor at john hopkins school of medicine bloomberg school of public health and carey business. School more coming up. John and ken. Kfi john and ken show john ken. Chiampou kfi am six forty five everywhere on the iheartradio app. Let's do this dodger. Fan starting to fifteenth dodger stadium returning to full capacity giveaways or back tickets for the rest of the season are on sale now. Check out the full promotional schedule and buy tickets. Visit dodgers dot com slash promotions. Now you can win your tickets right now for re opening day. Which is tuesday june fifteenth. He'll see the dodgers take on the philadelphia phillies. And you know what it's justin turner bobblehead giveaway night. Catch every game on your home of the dodgers. Am five seventy sports so you call what number we do in john. You have a pick debra mark a number. It's going to be the only number that matters one eight hundred five zero one. Kfi i met number callers. Just the first claim in a phone number. We'll give the number the phone by now. You pick the number one twenty two twenty that much all right. Twenty two twenty second kerala. It's one eight hundred five zero one. Kfi your chance to win a four pack of tickets. The dodgers against the phillies. Next tuesday june fifteenth. It's known as reopening day and justin turner bobblehead night. That's one eight hundred five two zero one five three four excited everybody. Yes who can count on her for a wu as you probably know last week. our idiot governor was excited to draw winners for the california vacs for the win contest. Remember that yeah well. It turns out that the scammers were onto our unemployment system jumped right on that and apparently there are people who are out there trying to convince people. They've won the california vaccine lottery. Just give us some of your personal information and we'll send you the money this would work. Wouldn't it because a lot of people are aware of the the contest Yeah you know what this stuff works. I know somebody who's been scammed. Couple times really. How dumber they. I don't wanna say okay. Do i know them trying to think. If you debra mark you can tell me no. It's i think. I think we're deborah. Seems like a good. She might be Lady yeah when you get there is going to be very Susceptible why man on the phone. Yes yeah i think so because you me you're very Yeah very open in accepting and you you keep going the complement. Sure and i think somebody could scam easy over the phone now. I don't scare easily telling you if he's he said two thousand dollars. I don't buy era. No i check my facts. We'll we'll see when you're in the bag. Sure i'm already there. Officially the california department of public health is supposed to reach out to you. An official state of california's cdph text. Id or an email address but you know you can fake that. So that's how the reaching out to the people that were one that one the vaccine lottery. There's another drawing. I think coming on friday. California department of public health will email the winners officials state government form and then a check will be mailed to the winner by the state controller's office. So nobody's calling someone that wants to know. Text me back your bank information. I would say don't do that. In general it's a bad idea no matter what they're selling no direct deposit it. Nobody no don't give your information anybody over the phone. Never do that. Because i have gotten those emails where someone says. I've won a lottery. I want to share with you. And i delete immediately go. You'll see you'll see when your brain starts fading. Well then i have bigger problems right. One of them is they. They know how to package their Use your like foreign and we can't do this in the. Us we need your help right right. Exactly what we have big winnings to share with you the lady whenever one anything nothing now would he be never won anything. I've ever won anything. Like not even a scratch her a lottery ticket scratcher win five bucks ten bucks. She thinks so. You know what time you really old say about ninety two. You don't think i'll be around at ninety two. She'll be so sad that you'd never won anything so desperate. I'll believe some guy from eastern europe is going to call you and credit card number. Sure you come visit me. i'm real fun. i'm so lonely molly nine dogs. I even have a few cats nowadays. So that's where you're headed. that happens. Keep us posed. We got more coming up. John and ken. Kfi johnny ken show john kobylt ken chiampou. Kfi am six forty five everywhere on the iheartradio app. We have a winner. Kelly murphy from menefee won the dodger tickets. The right one a four-pack to the dodgers and phillies the reopening next tuesday. June fifth dave justice arnold bobblehead night. So he's a great player. Good for her. Her him goes to goes go or not assigned genders. Why am i doing that. I think genders are important. I want ask airlines. Employees are fighting back. The flight attendants know what happened because the uniform broken out by genders and they think that that does for people who consider themselves nonbinary choose what looks like the male outfit versus the female. They want a neutral outfit. She's get i. I don't really care what they wear. But why can't the airlines like grooming rules. Why can't there be a male and female and just if there's another uniform needed then make a third uniform. They should make a third. I don't i don't really understand. Just because you're a conformist dammit. That's what you i like. I like to know. Kelly woman kelly murphy woman from menefee on the dodger tickets no word whether men and women will be accompanying her discussed this story here that the murder charge against the creep. Who fired the gun. That killed the six year old boy in the road rage incident down in orange county. Yeah the murder charges something. What's called implied malice. The accused demonstrated a conscious disregard for human life. Todd spitzer says he believes. He can prove implied malice using the depraved heart. Theory always liked that one to win a depraved heart murder case prosecutors must prove that a suspect showed a depraved indifference to human life and recklessly engage in conduct that created a grave risk of death to another person and caused their death. I think that fits here. That was there was some version of that They were charging derek. Chauvin with detroit. Charley yeah right. Even though he didn't go there to kill. George floyd right. He acted like so. What if you act so recklessly then depraved. Indifference is as good as if you plant. People say you have depraved heart. I think of a deprived heart. You don't have a deprived. that's right. I agree that was not giving nurturing. When i was young so i now back to venice and the big development this week that la county. Sheriff alex via the waiver has sent some deputies. They're they're not just any deputies. They are part of the homeless outreach. Services team did i. It's been around for decades. I saw a Pickup truck going by on the beach. We're walking on santa monica and one of these trucks rolled by. And it had the word outreach. On the back and i my wife said well. What is that. I said well outreach. That is the term that they use to try to convince The bums to get off the beach so he was rolling by and called the bum unit. The bum unit. That's what they should put on the back of the truck the bum yang whereas my father say the bum's rush unit given wouldn't would boy. I would love to bring our dads back to see what venice has become. He's as a kid all the time. And now that this fits. It's like that. That's that's you always say you go to those places like beverly hills and culver city. You don't see the vagrants because they give them the bum's rush out that's all are. These guys are just drunk taking drugs. of course they're bums so they're not experiencing homelessness the area. That's really focused on his called ocean. Front walk in venice and a couple of things happened but we do have the clip from Sheriff waiver reacting to bonds tweet storm. Yesterday he had like a little meltdown. Because so much media attention was played developing waiver and somebody people invent said thank god. Somebody's here wants to do something about this. Whereas dopey bond who ignored the whole problem and acts like he's coming up with solutions went on his own little meltdown. In fact bill malusis from fox. Eleven just tweeted out. La county sheriff via the wave. Just addressed this tweet from la councilman bond during an instagram alive says if bonded had a meltdown on twitter over his decision to come to the venice boardwalk. Sheriff said to bonnin. If you did your job. I wouldn't be in venice. That's probably a good way to put. I love how the away is. Not scared of this. Little twit bonding i think bond intimidates a lot of people. And that's why he's gotten his way and has been able to destroy the west side. And i think in a way the looks at him like just irritating fly and he's just gonna swab him down so courtesy of steve gregory from kfi news. We have more on this piece of audio. from sheriff. Ueva people are dying on the average of five dead a day in la counted as one hundred fifty a month as opposed to two thousand a year on the streets of la while the same activists to say. Oh you can't do this. You can't do that. They have no problem with people dying on the streets in face down the gutter like like a dog and that s appalling to me really all they can do all night. How what are the sheriff doing. So gonna respect for that type of attitude is you are part of the problem. Mr bonnin whatever you decided. You are officially part of the probably. Not part of the solution. If you're truly party solution you'd be in my office right now with all the resources you have in your district and let's figure out what we can sit up the campground safe parking areas. How many operation rinky beds we can get our hands on Get a map. This figure out how we're gonna get people from point. A to point b in cleanup the boardwalk as. What a true leader would do. So we'll let the voters figure out what to do with you. Mike but apparently doing your job is is not something exellent if airwaves for real. He's going to win this. He's going to squash is very low key but he just come up with some wine. Yeah no i saw the voters. I saw them in a video. He really did look like an old time. Sheriff he he he. He had his big sheriff sat on right. Does have this limp. So he kind of had that john wayne thing going olympic down the boardwalk. And ed it's very old west. Was the vibe. That i that i got. Yeah that's where only twirler in the six shooter. He you know bond and tried to double talk his way out of this. He started going on. Tv stations right and just porn out diarrhea. Then he had his husband send an email on social media message to everybody in the district. Where's husband was carrying on about. How wonderful mike really is and then he did. The trump tweets storm yesterday's all pissed off and he's just making things up and hurling insults. And nothing's working like he's getting no traction. What i see this article the also gonna times. It's a stunt by the sheriff. Just a political stunt fine great that you think so you stay home and let away in a way to do his work okay. We'll see what kind of stuff do this. We'll lapd chief. More finally spoke up not in so many words but basically the message from him seems to be. We're not getting involved but we won't get in the way. That's why because. Garcetti let me get involved and garcetti has headed up my skirt here so I'm halfway india. Yeah another thing hand up. His skirt garcetti's The puppet master but he wears a skirt the chief. No no. he doesn't okay. I just wanted to clarify another thing is and this has been mentioned. But i really. This really is the crux of it. A lot of people have been you know. You live nowhere near santa monica venice. You have no desire to go there. But it's not too far from where i live. And it's really true that on the santa monica boardwalk. There's absolutely nothing heinous nothing. Just normal people walking bike riding donut shops people around the beaches doing their thing as soon as you take one foot in venice. Suddenly all the disgusting degradation begins and it's so clear that it is legal to keep people from living in tents and sleeping bags on the boardwalk because santa monica does it and santa. Monica is really lefty. There really liberal. They're irritating eight. It's hard to drive through santa monica with all the traffic lights in the crosswalks. And they've got parking people live. Oh yeah they're they have big like scoreboard sized signs flashing masks must be worn outdoors in the park. They have these huge lighted panels. So you said about it. 'cause no picnic okay. They're not exactly libertarian. However not a speck of this as a lot on the boardwalk so clearly it's not a progressive thing and it's not against the law. It doesn't violate a court order. It doesn't violate anything. They simply tell somebody who's setting up a tent. No you can't do that. And they make the guy go nobody's arrested. Nobody's beat up. I'm sorry you can't do that. And you know. I wish i could take everybody on a walk. You can go for several miles on the santa monica beaches. Ed see none of this or very little. There might be a few stragglers that you go to venice. And what a couple of thousand so bonnet is just one of the biggest liars i've ever seen in my life full of excuses and reasons and promises. He's just a big. Es machine a big bag gas and via the wave is calling him on it. Let's hope he gets recalled from office. We got more coming up. John and ken. Kfi john and ken show john kobylt. Ken chiampou kfi am six. Forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. Well you've heard of the flying nun. The singing nun. We talked about this woman a few years back when this may big news. It's come back around. It's the stealing nun sister. Mary margaret cropper. Seventy nine years old was nabbed a few years back for stealing tuition. Money was the principal of saint. James catholic schools out in torrance and she used to bankroll her gambling habit. That's apparently how she spent more than eight hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. We're talking about her remember. They weren't sure the amounted. I i they were like. Oh it's tens of thousands and the amount grew suddenly. That's what we talked about it. Why is it. She's got into the hundreds of thousands. She's only getting arraigned now. That story is from years ago. It is yeah. I forget what year at broke but i don't know sometimes the criminal justice system. It says she retired in twenty eighteen from the school. And that's when they learned of her schemes so really it was just it was just two thousand eighteen. Yeah you felt like walker and democrats probably gonna feel well. I think that's what it is. I think the whole lockdown just has scrambled by my memory. My sense of time. Yeah i would have said ten years ago seriously for fifty nine years in one thousand nine hundred ninety became principal of the school and what she would do is take the cash and checks from tuition also fees and donations and because she oversaw the sink james covenant account savings account and she also had the schools credit union account. She was able to move the money over to the covenant account. And that's what. She began withdrawing to feed her gambling habit so when she was eighteen years old. It says here started this in two thousand eight. This was about ten years. He did this so this is six sixty years ago when she was eighteen. So what year would that be. That would be Nineteen sixty or sixty sixty wants the one she took vows of poverty. Chastity and obedience chastity vows enough to make you crazy right because of all the school. Hey were angry. Except one one nice the rest of them lunatics really were and Gamblers nothing would just price faces forty years for this. That'll finish off her life. I remember i'd be eight or nine years old and i had one none. She was angry every day in the classroom every day from eight to three and i remember thinking even as a little kiss i how do you the energy to be that angry all day every day. Not one good mood. Nothing that one smile. No compliments never happy with the kids could argue with you. But i had a number of nuns in my seven years in catholic school. And i don't remember too many smiles. I don't know if they were beating them in a back room. Or what the wow. I've honestly never met a nasty a group of people. Tim conway here i did i. I went to our lady of grace for third grade and all my buddies went to public school. And i said my mama go. I want to go to public schools. Because you're not ever going to public school. I said to my dad. I said i gotta go to public school. And he says well he sat me down. He goes if you get kicked out of catholic school. I'm gonna have to put you in public school next day. Raise my hand. Hey where does it take a crap around here out out. Never back similar story because after six years we moved and i there was no room in the catholic school for me right then and my mother said he'd go to the public school and she said what about high school. I said nope. I'm staying in public school. Oh i know yeah not catholic. High school catholic schools rough. And i don't give the nuns a break because look they live there. They're single they deal with kids all day. The priest hitting on a real slow life. You know it's one who took money to go gamble. You don't really look i. Don't judge her hitting on them. You're right nobody's hitting on them. They they got to wear the same clothes every day. It's it's tough life. Such flattering closed. Yeah i'm wondering if they got any of the money back or she was just a loser. The gambling i guess she just eight hundred thousand dollars. She used to conway. And then the kids in the seventies derby pigs. Yeah there's always like nuns that have derby picks that was coming. But then in the seventies i imagine most those hey can you fly. You know the kids were like. Can you fly crisis to deal with that now for ten years yield. Yeah all right Chris ancarlo coming on tonight. Also john pappa day cus petro says dad. He's coming on. It's got a good story and not patrick. O'neal he owns that hot rod. Charlie came in second in the derby. Bunch of college guys got together and bought a horse and they came in second right. Yeah the derby and the belmont ave. That's going to be kind of cool right. There are horses tonight. Ding dong dog. With those ores. John conway cars the news. Kfi koa hd two los angeles orange county well everywhere on the iheartradio app.

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Our favorite MLS Cup Playoffs moments + 2019 LAFC upset in GOAT bracket!


1:18:01 hr | 1 year ago

Our favorite MLS Cup Playoffs moments + 2019 LAFC upset in GOAT bracket!

"You're listening to extra time driven by Continental. You feel enough that Matt. I feel a lot better than Bob. Extra telling me see how I find out what's going on in the MLS. Maybe this podcast is influenced me a little bit as well loss loss. Everybody up here. Every single day goes into the office into the laboratory to try to cook up some great stuff for you. Got Your From New York New York you are listening to extra time driven by continental from my apartment in Brooklyn android with my partners in soccer. Divvy Gasman Mattdoyle Kaelin car. Happy Thursday. Everybody it is may twenty eighth. I know we haven't done those reminders of late but the is probably best to get back to that as the Danes. The weeks the months now drag on boys. How's IT GOING DOYLE? Are you already on a beach somewhere like do you? WanNa take off the undershirt. Let it all hang out with what's going on here. I am one am one day away from from getting rid of the the T shirt. Now that be this. Is this Mike Vacation. Where I'm going vacation guys Zach Summer. Mak- my tie and put on some tropical music. What do you think in We actually are GONNA get a jug of grapefruit juice and Mexicali three crush them for the next two weeks state park down the street. People have been very good about social distancing so we are going to go lay in the grass and look at the East River and pretend that wearing kava that is that is my next ten twelve days though. You look like Tommy Bahama. I mean it's like everything literally literally Tommy Bahama it or Hilo Hattie's and I figured let's go. Tommy Bahama this nameless plug kept there. You See. He's trying to get a sponsorship right now. I tend to vacation. I'm off the California on Saturday. It's not a vacation but will be changing some locale beer for extra time just on my part not for you guys Let's go big show today. Here we are narrowing the greatest team of all time bracket down to final four so basically today is modern powers two thousand Nineteen L. AFC. We know them very well. Two thousand eighteen land united. We know them very well. Against D C original dynasty teams ninety seven and ninety eight now. The fans all went modern day. Which should surprise nobody. So you already vote rally in Atlanta United. We'll see if we agree. We already know where doyle mostly stands on those teams. Click into that. We're also going to do our favorite. Almost Cup playoff memories today because it's Audi Cup playoff week beard emma soccer dot com which. I'm sure you notice because everything is plastered top to bottom playoffs at a really good time on women talking about the playoffs. We're talking layoffs playoffs. Let's go yes. I had a great time on Wednesday with Donald. D'oro in the Caglayan Stephen Vader do in the second leg of the Twenty Sixteen Eastern Conference Championships. You remember it well the bonkers Montreal. Toronto Canadian class seek the Toronto pushed on from and then got zero shots in the final loss. The sounders that reference was just under. Thanks for dropping me from that broadcast by the way late man. I got called late and it was between you and Donald d'oro and I had to make a trade not the time I've been traded for Donald Zero. I don't know it's a select group get traded for pizza in the city that you end up like this residual papa. John's from the city you then go to get delivered to your doorstep. I don't think so. Actually that would. I would have taken that. Yeah Dominic Dom yeah twenty eleven and he went on I remember. I had a concussion and he went on and just would not stop scoring goals for Chicago. It was like madness. Every week he was just banging and goals and I. I know dumb pretty well. I like them but I was like Yo. Can you slow down? Let me get healthy. I knock them out of the playoffs so they have it back here. Here's a hint for you Nathan Hale Nino one on twitter said why does David Gas or oil always chuckle or laugh in the background when you guys talk? Fc Cincinnati and. I can't figure that one out. So we'll save the hefty stuff for the mailbag. That sounds like something that's done in post edited in aerial. That sounds like an andrus thing. Yes definitely on argues thing. Yeah yeah before we get their current events stuff. No updates on. Mls return to play from us. We're sure that you again like us are following the coverage closely. There is a little bit of news team by Team. Dc United back in individual training on Friday that means the only teams that have yet to start individual training. Are the Chicago fire. And the San Jose earthquakes. Meanwhile sell the National Women's soccer league. They're back announced players on Wednesday. The twenty twenty wwl Challenge Cup. That's going to be in. Utah played at Zions Bank stadium than the semifinals and Finals at Rio. Tinto those facilities as we all know shared by real SALT LAKE IN UTAH Royals F C. And then the monarchs in USSL. There's no fans on these the matches are GonNa be streamed on. Cbs All access the opener and championship. Game also going to be on. Cbs in it's sort of the same that we've been hearing rumors about him. Alaska there's a group stage to start that determines seating and then you go into a knockout round tournament. This is slated to start on June twenty seven so they will be the first. Us teams for to return. Meanwhile across the pond news dropped this morning. Epl IS BACK on June seventeenth. And of course we've all been watching The Bundesliga we'll talk about Americans in the Bundesliga deer in just a little bit but Let's start with this before we get the greatest team of all time bracket What's our favorite playoff moments? I was asked to do my top. Ten Dot Com. Which I duly did and I only limited to games or moments or happenstance that happened when I was invested in this league when I was paying attention so two thousand six on. I've got a laundry list but before I reveal what mine is. I WANNA go around to you guys doyle. Since you've got the longest institutional memory was his. Call it that how about you get started. What is your favorite playoff moment? It can be on the field that can be off the field that can be a quote. It can be a beef. It can be anything you want. What is it I mean you almost you almost have to rule out the game winner from the original MLS Cup. Because that was such a spectacle. was in front of forty thousand people in Foxborough but it was a torrential rain. Slash Sleet Storm And it was a wild game because the the field couldn't handle it like the game probably shouldn't have been played was Chris. Armas scored the first goal then. La Go two nil. I think talk. Hurtado had the second goal. Mdc have this wild set-piece comeback and Eddie. Pope gets the winner. A golden goal in extra-time Nothing's nothing I don't think anything's going to top IT. Because it was like the the exclamation point at the end of the original season of mls in it it mattered like it mattered. That much Off the field again stick with DC. I mean they can't hold us back the everything that happened around that series against the Red Bulls in in two thousand twelve and it was just like to watch it. Play OUT THE WAY. It did And you know to have Bill Hamid rightfully sent off than Kenny. Cooper converts the penalty. But it's whistled pack. Because of encroachment Joe Willis Saves the Second Penalty Nick. Dc's down a man that Rafa Marquez gets a stupid red card and it ends up. Being ten ten nick daily owned scores and then the rebels have a last minute like last-second stoppage-time chance to tie it up. Interior reese and over it over the free kick and Roy Miller takes it and puts it thirty rows deep and Bill Hamid loses his mind both in the locker room and then on social media afterwards. Three Kyle Martino like who Kyle Martini? Schumer teeny and by the way this low playing the best part of all this which is hurricane. Sandy delayed everything and made them flip flop the Games and then the first game they try to play the game and red bull's rebel arena and there's a blizzard they can't they try to shovel it. Ben. Olsen's INN like the shots from NBC. At this time in this series were incredible. 'cause I remember sitting there watching bengals and argue with like I want to say it's like Lino and all these different executives the commissioner shoveling. Yeah like we can play this game. This game can be played. Meanwhile Hans Bock is like. Don't play the game. We can't play this game. Why would anybody ever play this game? And there are three hundred and fifty DC supporters. Up in the stands. They try to shovel it. They can't get it done. And then the rebels players dip and the DC players go and basically a party in the stands with their FA- that the entire series was incredible from Hurricane. Sandy disrupting everything to then. A blizzard was just like tear your hair out. What's happening here? How did all this happen at the same time in the same series with two rivals? And then you add the field stuff. I mean the Roy Miller thing is still. It's still the it's just unbelievable. It's played yesterday for Saprissa soccer's back right. That's right thing like obviously the double post game is incredible. Obviously the Dirani spree a game in two thousand eighteen. The second leg of that Portland. Seattle series is incredible. One that everybody's kind of forgotten about do remember the Montreal playoff game where they painted the size of Jones of the eighteen incorrectly. Like I still can't wrap my like there have been some great playoff moments in in my head cannon. That is one of them that absolutely qualifies as a great playoffs mode. They were talking about the on this on. This Kasichs remixed districts. We we'd like to select one was the three two win by Montreal. Went up three and then. Toronto stormed back but yet game got delayed. It reminds me. It's like a similar moment in my mind to the Zurich Valentine away goals explain it to the timbers moment everybody's kind of in a circle on the field like the you remember the pre game the referee standing there. And it's like they're pointing and gesturing. They're like yeah no no. It's not the right size. It's not the right size. You like Nick Hagglund Stephen Beta sure. Maybe they were just yanking are chain. Maybe they were just trying to get it down. Madeira on the street yesterday. With come on you guys knew that was going to happen. Come that was part of the game. Sort of like chain yanking and his rivalry between the two of US now maybe in Quebec the measurements different metric system faulty ruler. I duNNo. That was an awesome woman. I love that entire series is arguably the best. Mls history maybe those really la quakes comeback. That's up there. But in my mind I had to limited to ones that I was invested in Dave. What were you invested in? What was the one that you are Psych August? This hit me in the core. What when you asked us before. I'd say my oldest. Mls playoff memory. Is Freddie. Do placing a penalty taking the top corner and a PK shootout. In his first year Melissa he was fourteen. I remember watching on TV and being love pay. Lay the like. Oh God may twenty eight. Twenty Twenty Davis still stands by that. And then I think my first game that I went to was ravs. Metrostars Thousand Five Charlie Joseph Jauregui of Motto Guevara Those Teams Smith Game. Yeah Licadho Smith. Game was the second leg I think which I was in New York and then I would say from being at the like old best memory I have is probably two thousand fourteen The revs rebel conference finals of just. Rb was packed till Bunbury with that wild goal and then I traveled up. 'cause I just graduated so I went back up to Boston thanksgiving weekend. You were there I know and like I don't know Gillette was forty thousand. They won they went to. Mls Cop everyone was going wild. That was a lot of fun. And then I wait to Charlie. Charlie pay you to say that really might Dinamo Dinamo mentioned 'cause Kaelin promised me and episode of the Movement about me and then I would say the other one is the double post of like that felt like one of the first moments where like the playoffs got organized where we could all watch everything at the same time and it all happened on the same night and I remember. Just everyone in. Mls circles watching that game and just the insanity that was the whole game but especially the double post moment and of just like single elimination. Like this is what happens. Mls Makes Sense So yeah those are some of the ones that popped now. How about somebody who actually played in a playoff game even given quietly listening to us with our memories here Kaelin. I've been trying to think. Should I pick one that I've played in and around? I mean everybody can agree moment in playoff history as the first goal. Twenty twelve escot every everyone top of the list for like thirty people. Yeah all my tickets at the match de tickets allow. I mean you throwing it around. I'm still if you any of those people they're listening. Then moment I need that. Yeah I I'm trying to get the two thousand and two quake series They incredible comeback. I the galaxy. I was a cool moment because A guy played with Chris. Run Yeah at Berkeley who was the first guy that I had seen from Berkeley to go on and play professionally. scored a a massive goal in that in that comeback. And so that was a pretty cool when I was in college at the time and then For me I was. I guess I just did a video with the Chicago fire for their on. My top five moments with the club and one of them was my first playoff start and it was at Rfk second-leg Eastern Conference semi-final against DC united and just like RFK. I could go on and on about how much I love that place. It's just sweaty disgusting. Just tear like the. They had a little bathroom right by the pitch in the DUGOUT. That was just to discussing to go to. So you'd have to walk an extra like forty yards to go to the one in the back seat just wasn't worth And not just the sideline the crowd just bumping up and down. I was playing right. Mid and Yeah it was my first started with my first time that Juan Carlos Oreo gave me a chance to really give me trust to go and get out there and ended up with two assists in the first half and we advanced and it was the first time that I I think for me like I didn't. I had a bunch of injuries. That kind of derailed a lot of the things that I had set forth for myself in the regular season but the playoffs were always a time that I was like okay I know what I'm doing here I can. I can get this done and that game gave me a lot of confidence to To know that I was able to play at that level and in those bigger moment so Yeah that stands out from a good one. I Like I'm GONNA throw one out here in and we haven't mentioned a here but it goes back to believe twenty Was this twenty sixteen or was it twenty. I think it's twenty seventeen. Actually the tunnel fight in Toronto. Like crazy awesome moment. That was an like if it was between the fight. Itself is incredible but if it wasn't just like the protagonists of US soccer. Whether it's like Josie or Sasha Tyler Adams being in the mix and then in the hallway. What are you doing here? What are you doing here like Greg? Vanney just screaming and Jesse Marshes face and you know John Conway waiting here. Because that's Canadian soccer. But I digress me that whole moment the red tinting bike just had I had everything it was just such a perfect moment and I when I think of the playoffs. I think of Toronto in the of the second like you since I've covered. Mls because we've all been up there during their cup and this just freezing cold. And I was up there as well for the run So that Montreal series I was at the Second leg in that one and it was just. That was probably the best. The most entertaining exciting atmosphere game took over the city to Toronto's well the whole lead up the fans like the atmosphere at that at that match specifically. I've never seen anything like it. It was like I know I would say like maybe the only other thing that was close in a different way was the cup in Atlanta where I was kind of like. Oh my God this is. This is like unlike any. Mls Cup that. I've been apart overseeing it was just a other worldly but it it was just. I think that was due to the size and and but the Toronto atmosphere I felt like in those playoffs in the cold And getting that home field advantage. I thought those Those atmospheres throughout in Toronto were awesome. Wanted to best atmospheres. I'd say four playoff game because I think of the weather in the way it's built crew stadium. Mls Cup Twenty Fifteen. Although it and the atmosphere was affected quickly and they played they played Toronto. These conference finals in two thousand seventeen and I was there for like wanted. People was like amazing pulling PFC back and forth and just like the way that place gets cold and the fans pack in and you can feel even just not being part of a team like the hostility against a team. That's there is one of the special things but I would say. I think I've said this on this show before the Oh Canada for twenty sixteen. Mls Cup was like one of those moments. Where I was like. This league has shifted in my mind and obviously other people had experienced that before but the way that crowd reacted and as you said the way the build up was all week all two weeks. All season to that moment was one of the more special moments in my life. It shout with the stadium there. Because I've been to like a US Mexico game in Columbus and for anybody who's been to those are really special and I think as the stadiums get bigger and better for major league soccer and you know the crew were going to their own new stadium as well There is something really cool about being at kind of that's what I was talking about with. Rfk's being kind of a Like a relic history that you know is inevitably going to be kind of stays down. You have the honor of being there for one of those big moments and you may not realize it at the most hidden somewhere. Yeah it's awesome. We were there. I WANNA bring it back to twenty sixteen for. I was lucky enough to watch that game with Ziggy Schmidt the the analyst company. That was right after he had been fired by By Seattle and it was You know we all got the chance to work with Ziggy And we all know us a great guy and he was a soccer junkie and You know one of the best things about in for my point of view was. That didn't matter who was he just wanted to talker. You'd watch anything. He would talk about it for hours. We would do it in you know in the studio or we go out you know afterwards and have a beer or two But at that game itself I was able to watch ziggy and After after the final whistle after the penalty shootout In Seattle one you could see. He was happy But he also was like to drop bombs and he was looking at the sounders fans with tears in his eyes. And he's like he said it like to himself but I was close enough to hear he's like I wanted to give this to them so bad I wanted to be the one and I just I like that will stick with me till the day. I die That was just per on a personal level. The there's never been bigger playoff moment for me Then that one and I know sounders sands all love. Ziggy always appreciate I just think it's important that they hear that story. And they know that he loved them to For the entire time I think it's a great story. I remember vividly. Doing the pre podcast was sick leading up to that game. And just like kind of what you said in the sense of. He's just always down like it doesn't matter you know. It doesn't matter that I didn't play the game where that I'm not. Whatever he he wants to know what you have to say and he's willing to push back on you but I remember being on the field afterwards and going to congratulate Schmeltzer. I think one of the best parts about this job for me is not being part of the moment but being able to share some of those moments with other people and see how it affects them. Kind of the way you're talking about with sixty spent. There's nothing better than being on a field after a final after like a conference final or an MLS Cup or final or US Open Cup final or whatever it is. There's nothing better than being on that field and just kind of being a fly on the wall of so many of those games that stick out to me. Whether it's like you know Casey Red Bulls Open Cup. Final seeing the despair on the face of that red. Seen those trying to get a trophy. I was on the field in sixteen with the sounders afterwards because I had to do the react in just kind of watching them celebrated and enjoy being credulous at at what they had done in that moment Twenty fourteen conference finals arrives may not was a party. They were Giddy the crafts. Were like practically walking on clouds like Jermaine. Jones was talking so much mess. Lee Win was running around. Be Enough in. Those are the moments me when I think of the play offs of just seeing and not experiencing 'cause I don't know I didn't do it but that joy and the stakes whether it's the despair or it's the happiness that are wrapped up in all of this for all these people because that's their profession. That's obsession that's what they love and is was the payoff moment It makes me whistle man. The playoffs are the best part of the year. Two dates opening day. Because it means it's back and then the first day of the playoffs because it means it's going to be crazy and everybody's going to care that much more. It's a beautiful thing any other memories. He Goes WanNA throw out there. Anything that's kind of popping up in your head before we hit team of all time. I mean I'm thinking what what does put on here. I put Jimmy Nielsen. Twenty thirteen in Moscow. People don't want us to tell the cold stories anymore. I I just remember being like how the Hell is Jimmy. Nielsen doing this. I mean he looks like he has a walker. This guy can't move and somehow helping them win the game and PK's and that was a memorable one. I would say the early ones I think seven. Mls Cup that was like one of the first ones where I knew everyone on the field. I understood exactly what happening. Obviously a huge Joseph Gwen fan one of the greatest strikers. Mls history those big day for me and Oh nine. I didn't think ours out could win. And I remember being. I think it wasn't a library streaming the game and was just pure shock when they want. I didn't think it was possible. The way the galaxy wearing what you know the way the League wise in what I understood about it So those are some other ones that pop out Peter Vermes in Nineteen ninety-six with the metrostars in the I think it was the first game of that series against DC. United went to the shootout at the sideline camera. The for whatever reason there was a scrum with the fourth official about like who was shooting when Grabs the ball in goes if I shoot we win. And then he walks out to admit any whims out to midfield young for thirty five yards. Places the ball down because he was hurt real bad. He just limps up and goes ships to keep her and wins that game. It was like it was very peter for moment. That was one of the extra time. Trivia questions last night was who made that and he also didn't score golden goal. I don't know either way now. That was hand. That was Adolfo Valencia. The WHO who scored the the shootout goal push the metrostars to against DC united. That's that sounds awesome again. Something experience but I want get to greatest of all time. I think we already did. It did we. It's already done. I felt like what we just did. If you have playoff moments that you were there for remember. Just have a special place in your heart. Four one two zero six zero last text us on the text line Soccer DOT com email of course on an extra time on twitter. Get at US we. We've had a pretty dry mailbag recently and I'm not blaming anybody out there. I know these crazy circumstances we always would love to hear from you and thank you to everybody who is still following along as we're in this sort of a strange period. Let's say in podcast history. Let's get straight to the greatest of all time bracket an will start with the one seed Elliott of see Twenty Nineteen Points Record Carlos. Vela blown up the individual record book. They got fifty nine percent of the vote against Nineteen Ninety eight DC united that ninety a D C team runners up and MLS Cup. They were champions of Inter Marikana N. champions of CONCACAF Champions Cup is well. We talk about that all the time. Top Goalscorer Roy Lassiter. Visiting the has Marco Etcheverry High Merano Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera. We've talked about it. Allow Bruce Arena the head coach. We all know we all have been told via the mail bag that we talk about L. Afc either too much or all the time oil. So I think the case here is to make the case for ninety DC. What is the case that they are better than nineteen l? Afc I think they in terms of the body of work over four years. Nobody's matched what DC united did in nineteen ninety a. And if you look at the the playoffs at your but did fall short against Chicago. Fire short exact same way that L. AFC fell short. They win against a team. Like a veteran experienced team that we can counterattack. Dc to death. We can counter-attacked attacking Juggernaut to death. Because they will leave cells exposed. We just have to hold on for dear life. The sounders did it in nineteen The fire did it in nineteen ninety eight obviously. Les's Goal Differential Superior Their Single Point Total is superior They have the best player on the field and Carlos. Vela as much as I love Diablo and Hymie Marino Carlos Vela is a level above But if you look at that I eleven really. I like thirteen on the roster. It's pretty even talent lies like that. Dc United is the only old days mls team that feel like you kick them off and just drop them into Molest whole cloth and they would compete at the very top. So the argument is they did it three times in four years the argument they did it internationally in the CAF Champions Cup and the COPA Inter Americana the argument is they had Eddie Pope. Tony Sanneh Carlos you Mosa. Jeff Agoos Richie Williams they had both Olsen and hearts this year. This is one year. Both of those guys overlap so they had youth and they had experienced They had guys who would do it. International Ring of for club and country And they are the unquestioned. Best Dynasty in MLS history. So I think that I I mean honestly I this is a toss up for me It ends up giving a lot of credit to L. AFC And it says exactly how good they were because I think I would get to the point. Where Ninety eight DC united who tossup yes anyway When you I think one of the things toil centers when you look man for man like this D. C. Group our guys that you would roll out in two thousand nineteen and win. Mls Cup with and you mentioned that. Back Line. Like Eddie. Pope could have played in both Aris. Tony Sanneh as well. And then you talk about said Carlos your job and then talk about midfield of Harkes Richie Williams Ben Olsen. We'RE GONNA TALK. Ninety seven and ninety eight so you have Diaz Arce and you have lassiter and High Marino who did it across multiple errors as well. And then you've got this star in Marco Etcheverry. It's really hard And one of the things that L. EFC did last year by not winning in the playoffs again. Was the leave the door open for conversations like this and we talked about that on Monday which is far saw had closed the door. More Times they would have been in different conversation. Winning that final game matters winning over the course of full seasons matters as well so at this point we're talking about teams that were all good over the course regular seasons in all made it two championships and all that stuff doyle's brought up the Culpa Inter Americana a lot of research do your research so I did a little research today And DC united one that nineteen ninety eight against Vasco de Gama from. Brazil was the last time that torn it was ever played. It was created because Europe in comparable wouldn't let college teams into the intercontinental so much three Mexican teams had wanted since nineteen sixty nine America in Toomas America doing it twice. Dc beat Vasco da Gama team. That had one couple over to door as that August so August twenty. Sixth was the final. This tournament was played on November four th and December fifth. So is that same group coming out in ninety seven Bosco to Gama injected a ton of money specifically to win Copa Libertadores. Ten of the eleven starters from Coppola final started against DC united in one or both of the legs of this competition. So this was legitimately the best team in the region. The home game for DC was flooded. Rfk The away. Game for DC oddly was played at Lockhart Stadium in Fort Lauderdale which sort of changes a little bit and the other piece that I found which probably takes a little shine off of the victory which was that Vasco da Gama played in the club World Cup at the time which was the intercontinental copies against you a FA- championship final on December first in Tokyo against Real Madrid and then played the second leg of this competition in Fort Lauderdale and December fifth or days later so this same exact team started both those games so that's a pretty long flight to in and then have to play a team that only come down about an hour and a half on the plane which whatever you WanNa take from that but either way as oil mentioned they didn't just win this competition and they also won the CONCACAF Champions Cup at the time And when you look at this roster fronta bat they could beat anyone but I still think in this conversation. Elliott seats changed the way you could play in win in major league soccer. They did things at a level we've never seen before in the regular season they probably had arguably the best performer and MLS history in Carlos Vela and so for the way they did it and the quality they have an obviously comparing Ariza's very tough I think l. Afc nudges ahead in this one in my head actually it was ninety eight against two thousand eighteen. Atlanta. My research was geared there. And then we'd be started this. It's fine I can roll it out for ninety seven as well so when we look. I think one thing you can't you can give DC credit for winning those competitions. And you absolutely have to. But I don't think it's hard to in a comparison because you can't take demerits away from L. AFC because they didn't have the opportunity to plan them you know. They had the beginnings of a cocker calf champions. Run a year later. Which would have been counted outside of that twenty nineteen group a lot of ways because they did have some changes? So it's it is. It's apples to oranges. That's true because L. AFC qualified in two thousand eighteen. The twenty thousand nine hundred and the ability of D. C. to compete on every level because they also went to an open cup semi-final they also tied for supporters sealed winner. In Ninety Eight. They went to MOLEST Cup final as well as the two other finals but their ability to compete year in and year out when Merano Niche Avar Copa America and is at the World Cup and Eddie. Pope is at the World Cup and Olympics. That is a sign of how great DC WAS IN L. Afc might bill that from here on out but DC started ninety-six we're talking about ninety eight L. Afc started in twenty seventeen to eighteen seventeen eighteen eighteen. Yeah so it's the same thing where it's you know. They have an opportunity to get into Champions League if they had performed and win open up and they didn't do that so just a just a clear. One thing. Dc did not tie for the Supporters Shield in nineteen ninety eight we There's a glitch on the standings pages on MLS DOT COM. There were ten point Arc Avella Galaxy. Yeah ten sixty eight point season for the galaxy and it was fifty eight point DC team in that case. Would you not look at what Elliott did because that part of it is at the head to head part is hard right especially between Arizona? I could see how tight that would be but L. AFC being so far ahead of the rest of the league. At a time where I think the league is you know across. You're going against some great. The Standard I think has has risen How many teams were there in hundred ninety eight? Twelve twelve okay. I could go either way because I I also sometimes go kind of Bristle at the idea that it's gotten so much better across the board because I think it was kinda harder and some ways to get into those teams when they're less bus teams. Although there I think there are better players overall But I mean just L. Afc what they did in the regular season to be able to go so far ahead of the rest of the pack. I think is really hard to do. In and made what they did so So much more impressive if there was something that were too. I think that's something you could look at it and count towards their cases. Well I think it is but and look I if I had to choose one roster or the other at Shoes L. AFC I also think what Bruce Arena's done as a coach. Stan Yao speaks for itself. I do think Bob. Bradley is a better coach. I would trust him to come up with a great game plan To try to eliminate Etcheverry at all that. But if you look at it like this is a tournament style. This bracket that we're doing right. We're not talking about the best regular season. We're talking about who would win a tournament style. Game DC united from Nineteen Ninety six to nineteen ninety nine one three. Mls COPS IN OPEN Cup. The Copa Enter Americana and CONCACAF Champions Cup. How Has L. AFC done in tournament? Style competition Do you trust this. Llc team in a tournament style competition. That feels unfair to me in some ways. Because it's easy to go back and Cherry pick a four year period and say yeah they want everything like Elliot's only. I'm talking about the other team in three courtesy of DC. We're not talking about the entirety of what they accomplished. We're only talking about this. Ninety eight DC united team. That's it that's it. That's it was a number nine hundred ninety eight this watching it from text and even in that context. They want to knock out style competitions that year anyway when that Rin against against Vasco de Gama might still be the best win any. Mls team has had against international competition fair but la of Levy. When you look at this and say Paeans of of South South America opportunity to play the sounders. The opportunity to play Was the timber and the open. They didn't get it done. You also add to it. If you're going to say who do you trust on the field in a big game? You're going to calculate the fact. Jiffy goose has performed at this level across all the. Mls CUPS. He played for sure. That's part of what you're doing so you're not just talking about ninety but you're talking about these players and what they're capable if you're talking about that moment in. Time Jeff Agoos in ninety eight nine. Jeff Agoos the entirety of his career. What could he do in an imaginary game? It's nineteen ninety eight jeff acres that. Look I think that this L. A. team the back line it goes the DC one hundred percent. It's not even close to me. Dc's backline give it to them. Like BETWEEN BETWEEN GOOSE BETWEEN SANTA. Between Your Mosa between pope like it's not even a competition to me and I love it. I Love Walker Zimmerman. They have good outside backs to L. AFC. But from just like A. Who's the booze the Gamers in here? Who's going to win a game? Who's GonNa just lock it down and and not let the team have anything I would? I would trust DC more in that scenario. That's why this is so hard I don't you made it. Then you start looking on the other side. I know at Villa. Give some problems to Jeff's made but he's played back outside back. I mean we've seen Velikin due to any and you look at some of those individual matchups and big cat as one of the best in the business. But I just I agree. If you're going just back lined backline but when you actually start breaking down the matchups that's where you start to be like. Ooh I don't know I don't know if it's As that much of a you just count on that back. Line the lockdown against it's fair to say that L. AFC bottled in big games. They've said that they bottled it. And begins you know but you could also say that this team would have been expected to do more in the League and the cup. Is that not fair and Open Cup now? It's not that's not doesn't entirely fair. I mean they like that fire team that they lost to was really really good and went on to become arguably a dynasty and Peter Novak's performance. Mlk MLS Cup was incredible and like the first thorns the first twenty five minutes of that game. It was a barrage Zach. Thornton was standing on his head. Sometimes you need a hot keeper learn McCain said it so I think about the sounders can. This is a team. That won two cups in three years. Never missed the planet over. They've done it. We Elliott has zero proof that they've done it. I know that you can only. We're only talking about november eleventh. Nineteen Ninety Eight. We can talk about anything else in but back that DC one cups in that year and over the course of its shows that they could do it. I don't know that we're not discuss but those are two cups that didn't exist for L. Afc come on the same they would is the current concacaf champions that you cannot tell me that. Connie is not the same either. It was the frigging great amazing race. Basler Gumma they're crossing half the world but the point is DC. One knockout competitions L. Afc has not fat. Okay so you go. Are you going ninety DC already picked a while ago? I just hate when we argue in my own definitely. That was intentional. That was intentional. Out of my problem is I don't know I don't know which way to go on this one because I agree the DC these teams like from a strictly like head to head perspective. If this was a knockout tournament I would I would trust. I would would trust them more but I feel like that trust might not mean anything because L. AFC and attacking sense as guys that could just rip them open and our younger younger other than like been Olsen like it is an old backline. Some of the Etcheverry. I know he's in the late twenties. It's still is prime. And we've you're pushing me to ninety eight DC per exactly what was going for here. I'm trying to tear you apart. Hi Marino was twenty five. I'm was like twenty one years old Richie Williams thirty. I think hearts was the only guy on the wrong side of thirty. And He pokes twenty four. Like this DC team was young compared to the rest of the lead taken. Oh I'm taking. Dc might have to this best team of all time. This isn't the best team. The racine analyst this is who would win DC ninety eight is we have one from from the fans for we've to fairly of see from Dave we have DC from doyle. So it's coming down to me and UK. Yeah I'm GonNa God just I'm GonNa go DC. Just make it hard on you. Alan shop trump to jump in here and guard powered for my vacation. Kayla came and let me ask you this though. If you had to stop Carlos Valla you would like to have the ability to sell Tony Sunday. Like just track him and stay tight Jim. No one can stop Vela. We know that this is a guy who has a decent chance to stay with him. Probably overpower him. One V one scenario. There's not one person that's to steal a page from what we saw. The successful teams do which is just a clogged the pitch clogged clogged the midfield star service. Push him as far away from goal. Make them play forwards and backwards. I mean backwards and sideways and and kick them a bit like. Yeah just just put put lean thome a little bit and make somebody else virtue and the the what is the Jordan rules like come down. That's really the only way I think I've seen seems to be successful and L. AFC's continued to try and play their way out of it and and find the right situations and getting them in good spots and get him to receive the ball on the move. It becomes difficult when the field gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And so I think that DC team the only way they could even try and Hang onto him would not would anyone on one for him or put him on. Either side is going to be a problem so I I think they would have to take more of a Seattle approach the way they did. I think that DC team was Would would handle that. Well they would. They would be able to do that. And Bruce Arena teams. Know How to play that way as well John. I think they would happily do that. I'm going to see united. We're moving them along. And the reason is basically exactly what you said. I was doing my. We'd be thing where I just try to rile you up argue you circles but I think it's DC. Because I don't think you can put this L. AFC team ahead of them based on what they've already admitted which have not been able to get it done in big games like whether it's Latin and basically outside of that punch was galaxy whether it is the Open Cup whether it is almost cup playoffs. They've been brilliant. The what they've done is changed this League Buffalo Transfer Perspective and a style of play perspective and team building perspective. But they haven't got done yet and so if the if you haven't got it done and you didn't have a trophy other than the supporters. Shield that year to lean on. I'm GONNA ending chaos. I just want to put this out there. Let me just ask this question sure. Who would all of you take two thousand eighteen Atlanta or twenty nine hundred twenty nine thousand nine hundred in a one game would take Atlanta interesting okay but we might find that we would have had a chance to find that out. But I just pushed ninety ally personally would take this DC group because let's be real you're switching switching Diaz Arce for lassiter between ninety seven ninety eight over Atlanta two thousand eighteen but not over L. AFC So I think that we're either GONNA end up with DC DC or just chaos in general with no consistency. He's a point of this right the entire Cup troopers. This was for US spin a month arguing about things that we can't prove or have any real logic behind and done that happened ended in chaos. Well on our way to that. So let's see if we are going to get chaos because to face off against one thousand nine hundred a d c United will either be twenty eighteen Atlanta united. You've got sixty three percent of the fan or nineteen ninety-seven DC. United only got thirty seven percent of the fan vote. Ninety seven DC united. If you think back they were in cup. They were supportive. Shield that he pope's defender. You're you're talking about high. May Marco and as you said the magic triangle which was high marco and Ronaldinho's Arce combining in this year meanwhile twenty eighteen. Alan United. We know this well. You Miguel marrone sort of shining light in midfield and then Joseph Martinez goal-hungry hungry twenty four seven in Darlington. Nagbe be an all the way back down the pitch all these players that are still fresh in our minds. Who's it going to be so I would just say part of my thought process and this one and obviously I thought it was ninety eight verse twenty eighteen but it doesn't matter because I can just chefs as the same thing is I would say this. Atlanta team has the least APPs of all the teams. Were talking about in the end of this competition. Let's Your Business. It's bringing a fifteen million dollar Argentine. I don't care about money though they're starting Franklin Escobar and a half healthy Greg Greg. Garza half the time and we're talking about teams that are starting Jeff. Goose Tony Sante. We're talking about I think. Aj Dela Garza. Who's better than those guys in a peak Omar Gonzales so I would say that this Atlanta team has the top talent that I don't think anyone else has in this argument but I think that in terms of seven through thirteen. I would trust almost any other team in this competition but Melissa Cup. They also beat a red bull team in the playoffs. That had set the point record at the time so they have a lot going for them in saying that. I don't vote you guys can do. You don't think Darlington Agni. Nagy could make his way into that. Ninety eight DC team. I would nags a top five player on this team. Though would you rather have Franko Escobar? Jeff Agoos Greg Garza playing. What Fourteen Games are Tony Sonnet? Eric Remigia Richie Williams. Jeff Lorenzo with starting centerback most. That's that's part of it. Though right like Garza will only healthy fifteen games. But he was healthy for the play offs Escobar. Has You know had his injury issues as well but when he's been healthy. Been One of the best right backs in dire online and playoffs man. He's like maybe not even late bringing Barco and off the bench not even having to use miles. Robinson like this for miles. Opposites started like to pro games at that time nine two thousand Nineteen Robinson. I'll agree with you on the actor. It's not we be as strict on the year. Nineteen Ninety seven DC. United played better row. Fifteen games royal completely washed up. Roy regularly played seventeen games. Like this John Mays ner was a starter John Major's life flair but he's not as good as Franco Escobar People. You just named started. Mls Cup guess. We're just talking about emily. I'm just saying if that will. That's all we're going to talk about like Atlanta. You're talking about the peaks of these teams. I mean we're not talking about any of these teams when they're in a low period which didn't have a long one but it's it's mostly the peak of these teams gig on. I mean if you want like pick guys. We're GONNA put Chris McCann on a unlike a pedestal here. He he played a pretty good number of games. Mikey embrose well Mike Ambrose. So why is I emperor? If we're talking about the the peaks of these teams and but we're talking about Death at the same time. And then you're referencing. Mls Bruce Brooklyn. Make A in the nineteen ninety-seven new. Mls Cup Fair. Use The web guys. That is incredible as a fair statement. I cannot even to like not even toys time time against a pretty bad colorado rapids st no offense to Marcelo Balboa in the rest of those guys over me Austin Chris Anderson and on and on and on but yeah a bad is not the right word but uninspiring Colorado rapids team. I I don't know man I have A. I think you guys are trying to have it both ways with this. How would you have it? How do you think about it? And who would come out on top? I think that I think the talent differential is non-existent Just almost the same way that. It's almost non-existent For the ninety eight team versus L. Afc and this ninety seven DC united team. They want Less Cup. They won the supporters. Shield bake lost US Open Cup penalties. This is the this is the closest any American team has ever come to doing domestic treble. They weren't as good as the ninety eighteen. They didn't have because no like I love rally as RSA Wanda one point. Oh and his ability to poach and find. These seems in the box that nobody else would say But he didn't like the ninety eight DC team could sit back and crush you on the break because of Roy. Lassiter s like that's something that the Ninety Eight D. C. Team just did not have the ninety eight. These are the ninety. Seventy steam. Didn't have ninety. Eight DC team had a bengals who was already an international caliber player. He walked out of college and was able to play at full. Us Men's national team level and he was a match-winner in MLS. Ninety seventeen didn't have that. What the ninety seven team had was the league wasn't as good just straight up wasn't as good in ninety seven as it was in ninety eight and the second thing was Marino an etcheverry that summer had led Bolivia to the Copa America final which is an incredible accomplishment an absolutely incredible accomplishment and they just they proved they were two of the best players in South America. It was a great team but I like. I think it's also a team that against this Atlanta side would have had to have the ball and then when you consider how Atlanta played in the playoffs. They were basically a counterattacking fast-breaking team. I think Atlanta would have figured out a way to to get a couple of goals And Win this game I I agree I would go with Atlanta and this one I think when you look at it part of it also for me does play into Having taught to Martino I think he's one of the best managers we've seen in MLS. And then the top end talent to I think just Martinez. Unlike any player I've ever seen in in major league soccer and I just feel like he would if you want to talk about that DC back line and I think in some ways. Maybe maybe they as a group they could handle We talked about Vela but I think shows if would be able to give them a lot of problems in in ways that maybe other forwards they they played against didn't have they didn't have to face then. Miguel Miron I I dialed digits column on top and talent like Miguel Miguel Marilyn from US. One of the best players to plan. Mls as well and then when you just look at the way. They went through the playoffs. I think they gave up one goal throughout the entire playoff run So defensively that team really gave up nothing. They went to New York City of C. N. Just kicked them off. The pitch like they interest had had no shame to go up there and they'd gone and played this brilliant sort of counter attacking style and at times. You know really really nice football and just went up there like. We're going to a small pitch Yankee Stadium. Let's just kicked him off the pitch and then came back and walked ran away with it. They then stormed through. Think be at a New York Red Bulls three nil and a leg at home army switched the tactics up and it just did not work at all. It impress then Then they just went on and then even amyloid cup. They kept kept a clean sheet. Shutout got two goals walked away so the clean sheet is is a good point here as well because that DC team they were okay goal that Atlanta United seem with Brad on like everybody kind of forgets it but right after it was one nil serve. Gazon made a gigantic is just A. It's just a massive differential between these battles massive. It's differential between these two teams one team. Having a match winner in goal. Disparaging Scott Garlic. Garlic was a good good hanging is on. Yeah I thought you guys made good arguments Atlanta show. They could do it in big games. They did it against the rebel team. That was pretty elite. They did against avid via as well. Different conditions differ moments It's not a great Portland team that they beat. Mls Cup but neither was that rapid steam in ninety seven. So I think pretty much. It's all fairly even and I think what goes to Atlanta's just I think the League has gotten harder and they were able to do things at an elite level across twenty eighteen. Even though they didn't win supporters shield in the league. 'cause they still would have set the points record if Red Bulls didn't do it ahead of them and then they went to beat red bull in the playoffs and then one. Mls Cup as you said. So I think this is an Atlanta team. That's pretty hard to argue against although I attempted to And I think ninety eight will be an interesting match up as I had already prepared floor and I'm ready. We re we record. You Know Mondays I now. You guys want to roll that out there we to ready to. I'm ready to play pickup. Let's go we gotta fill time Bro. We gotTA FILL NOT GIVING ANY NO PRE conversation conversations here. I'm going Atlanta as well and I think what you say Jalen about Joseph Marrone and also about their ability to kind of shift who they were in that moment to do it. Throughout the regular season it'd be dominant one way and then when their backs were up against a wall to flip it a little bit and say actually we can play a completely different way and be dominant that way to. That's to me. What takes it of the top. And then I just can't get past Joseph and then in particular only round but here's the thing that I agree with every I I clearly agree but are we talking about a twenty two me Ron. That's more dominant than Etcheverry was and are we talking about a player and Joseph who did more did more things that hymie marina did and it's a different kind of dominance. Yeah it's more dynamic right. I would say that Etcheverry was was more dominant and everything ran through him but mark really only had one way to hurt. You can use the ball alimony. Kill you on both sides of the ball. He could kill you off the ball. He as a playmaker he could kill you a goal but he couldn't tell you if you play if teams were sitting deep. He could only kill you in space. They were able to create space but they were teams. Problem was when team sat in. He wasn't able to pull now that I don't think that was their problem. They would eventually they they mostly killed bunkers they mostly killed the bad teams the only way to beat the only way to Atlanta United. Twenty eighteen was to press those it and this. Dc United team with they weren't oppressing team with pressing wasn't even really a concept twenty years ago mcadoo just bit Mike Power Supply. Eight it loud. Takito on vacation tear office on cast. I don't know if you hear in the background here but there's something happening in my house. There's like it's like a wrestling match of some. You need to create like a best of real like blueprints from Michelle has been electing those be prepared for some unseen. The come out. Yeah he says in the chat that he's already on it. So here's our final four for the greatest team of all time we've got on one side two thousand seventeen of see the trouble winners the first to do it and then take it on two thousand fourteen. La Galaxy and on the other side. We've got nineteen ninety DC united against twenty eighteen Atlanta. United is this. Is this feel right to everyone? Before we move on feel like sort of I think the right our think. Twenty Nineteen L. Afc Maybe over that two thousand fourteen galaxy side. But like if you here goes doyle he's GonNa complain about the seating for it's definitely. It's definitely a seating problem with twenty eighteen radicals. But I this is. This is these are four of the six best teams at MLS. History Twenty eighteen rebels in two thousand Nineteen L. AFC both have a gripe but this pretty good this pair that I would say the other clubs that would have a little gripe Chicago. But it's hard to put any group in specifically over any of these teams and two thousand eighteen rebel complaint leaving out two thousand. Casey was like one of our biggest mistakes on this whole thing. Just we shoehorn Charlie and Kaelin into this show but we live with what we live with so we are as I think we all know that. Twenty Twelve Dynamo would give these teams are real game comment all right. Let's IT rolling Audio let's Mosca playoff weeks before we get out of here and do a little bit of Mailbag Bundesliga stuff. I just want to pick your brain a little bit Ceylan. We DID DOYLE. What makes a great playoff team on the site? We had that conversation with Charlie made GEL and Caylin did. Oh I forgot I'm like a facto column. You byline on that thing they didn't give me the byline but if if you go by. Word Ken. I'm no credit all the although I don't we don't it's real informal. It's like instagram. Dm Straight to the Colin. It's correct that is my process in the last week before vacation. That is my writing process. Unleash a couple of drafts I got. I got to put a column up asleep by the river. Yeah be careful because that Simon is going to text me to say. Hey you got to fill in for music. You're helping out here were you all right. Let's faster leaping by the river. What did that mean? I'm going to go have PALOMAS? Oh in the park. Got It down by the river saying off the defense. Just just I've already. I've already had my snl reference for the for the week. Did you see the the the ringer article about the Stevie Nicks Fajita roundup thing now? It's the best. Snl sketch of all time is on the rinker Check it out any months my kids. Who TV roll in here Jalen tells about good playoff coaches. Tell us about what makes the difference? Men can be sure you can be long. Could be somewhere in between. I'll reference doyle's article actually. I think it's really good I say that not just getting But I thought he broke down into categories well and it started off with Bruce Arena. Talking about like your best players have to be your best players and going through some of the history of The best player stepping up in big games Shutout depend Ramirez. I think leg there are There is there is a case for that to happen like we would. Also the best coaches also find a way to put their best players in in good situations for sure and to create systems around them to do that. And that's that's kind of what we've been talking about when we look at how How teams have been successful. And how some teams haven't so. That's that's a big part of it And I look at just like my My coaching my coaching history. I mean some of the best guys that I had were in playoff moments where Carlos Desario who Took us on a really deep run. Then as well. I know he went to the final SERTA. Mls Cup with the Red Bull's team which I think was a surprise sally so I mean as far as like attention to detail I think there's a sense of belief that you instill within your team and a dome was also really good. The other when you went through was like flexibility and I remember from twenty seven to twenty twelve. We really transformed as a team from being a team that really went And just kind of made it made it ugly at times to twenty twelve. We actually led the League in possession and we kept going against Sporting Kansas City in the regular season and we had so much trouble with them because they play that high pressure for three three and we actually changed our entire style and started playing four three three To to to match up man for man with them and then we got to the playoffs. We did a We switch back to a four two and we recognize that that point in time that we really wanted to get Brad Davis in a good spot and push him over to the wing and we also things were changed for us too because we had brought in Bonet Garcia and it allowed us to play a little bit differently so we played four four sue and Boniek would be able to talk in and help out in the weak side in the middle and Brad would be able to find that gap behind kyw Kamara and in front of chance Myers and we figured if we can get him in that good spot and I tended to drift to the left wing and try and pin chance back and make runs behind to soften up a little bit of space for Brad. Davis Net was The tactical wrinkle or or flexibility. That I think dwell Put put well that you. You have to have some flexibility as well and we've seen that throughout playoffs whether it's Greg Vanney and the way he switched it up the four four two diamond leaving three five two and I'm less There's been a bunch of changes like that but ultimately I think you really have to. Just you do what you do best and and I think the only other thing that I could say is is getting the the mix of guys right. That was another piece in the article and understanding who your players are so one thing that don did was. He knew every single guy on the team. So before I even got traded to kyu-sun John Conway had played for dom in San Jose and was with us In Chicago and he called John I've known since eighteen years old and I was at Berkeley and he used to talk to me but he He called John to ask like how. How's training type of guy was like how is handling myself during preseason and like did his homework on every single guy before? I even got to the team so by the time he got there. He knew exactly who we had And what type of person and players he was he was He was dealing with so he was able to give us a lot more freedom even off the field than than a lot of coaches that had played for because he knew kind of what he had so I think I think there's just so much work that goes into deciding what's a good playoff team but there is a part of it that are teams are able to do which is peaking at the right time and That's a harder part to train for and I know the guy the galaxy teams in and Bruce been able to do that allowed as well I still think that's an important part of of this league in the sounders have been doing it. I think their next challenge is to try and do it consistently but doing it. At the right time there was something about our group that when it started to click when that calendar. Click to August. It was like all right. We're we gotTA start ramping up and September and then by the time you get to the playoffs You're ready to go so those are a bunch of random thoughts but I have a question. I don't want it to come off as like wrong disrespectful. Or whatever I know. Is there a way in which though like a team that and the galaxy are good example? And I think what you're talking with Houston. Do you like legitimately take time off during the season to be ready to ramp up like do guys go away during the season in June in May and whatever to keep yourself okay or is it just a different switch energy and intensity as you get to the end of the season. Yeah it's just a different switch. Yeah it's just it's flipping the switch to recognizing the have any margin for error as you get closer to the playoffs in and look. Everybody is holding each other accountable throughout the season and pushing for results and and all that. Nobody's like going on vacation Or hanging out. It's just it's just more that like it's there's just so many factors that go with it playing in. Mls where you're going. You're going to play up in Vancouver on your you know your flight gets delayed. And you're playing on turf and it's tough for your Playing an altitude here and then you have a quick turnaround or an Open Cup match you. Have you have so many different things? You have to balance throughout the season and sometimes you get hot. I remember I remember in two thousand twelve actually. Getting hot almost too early we went. I mean we went undefeated at home that whole season. But we also I think we had a stretch where we like one six in a row seven row and it was kind of like a this tour it was actually a kind of like. I was worried that we were peaking too early. Because then if you crashed down and you try and get back for the playoffs. That that's hard to do It's a strange thing but at this this is also a time where I would say. The Supporter Shield was not a goal of ours and was not really something that a lot of teams that I played on or around really focused on. It's taken a whole different meaning now So it really was about winning MOLEST Cup and only that that was really the only an open cup but even for some clubs that didn't really exist so it was. It was really that's gained in importance as well too so it was really. The measure of success was being good at that time of the season. Just WanNa say this is the third week in a row that Kale in has referenced. The dynamos long unbeaten streak at home. back in twenty twelve of good points for consistency. There Buddy Man. Good Memories Good Memories. Just have a way of popping up to the top of your brain you know you just gotTa make make sure people remember. Yeah it's it's especially with this group Let's get into the MAILBAG row quick. I think we're going to skip the Bundesliga talk. Everybody's watching that you're seeing Tyler Adams and Weston mckennie and John Brooks and Alfonso Davies. Yeah you know get. Some people made a pretty good. I'm just getting not rushmore card here. Which happily rolling people about for the last couple of days by the way. Let's shut out Carla's graze. Though as well because in terms of what is trying to do selling on Latin American players he could ended up being big. He missed most of the hurt. But he's comeback the lineup for Augsburg and he's just a destroy right now but like cows graze. Oh probably not even a top five. Emma's demand it but he got sold for four million dollars. Starting the Bundesliga. Now keep an eye. Hymns emotion of the second oils motion to respect Carlos Correa. So on this show. Wow that's the second the second show inroad doyle has mentioned. Crows grew as so consistent. Good memories they come at the top of your head Here's the last one of the mailbag. Thank you to Mike Donham. Every also hit us up wasn't questions here This one is if you had a five aside. Tournament made up of only current analyst players by what country. They're from which country would win. We had some initial thoughts here being around in the in the pre game earn free. Show meeting Brazil throughout and we threw it out because of ill senior. But if you look around you're talking they'll CEO Talking Job Paulo. Who was incredible. Doyle's favorite effort could be in this as well. Rosset that we haven't seen play but obviously he has some quality Buan. He's got magic in those feet. You don't necessarily have a proven defender but you can throw our tour in here. Maybe the guy in Orlando that they just signed him haven't seen play. Maybe he could do the job you want. Somebody kicks the other team. Philippe is here and he's not bad on the ball. Either jump out to you. Yeah I've got like eighteen hips there once I can throw out there yes key. We're only one player short but Finland would be Landline LINE IN LOAD RIGHT. Tala and Alex Ring as like a pretty versatile group that can play with the ball as not bad all time by the way. This is just current right. Yeah Yeah career. I'd say we put we can pull back in here team. Montagna go for the throwback the MEKA Varun up so champion. Cops are all that matter but yeah so my hips. WanNa be Ghana and then I really like Peru and Venezuela right now. Who's your team so Harrison? Awful Latif and John Mensah are my three staples and then you kind of have to pull from like David Calm. I would allow the after that which is not as positive but that I think is pretty good. A will allow living with the car. You can take Alice. I don't know that he's a five a side of and maybe not a few. I think we haven't seen a wounds who play in the League. But like if you're looking for midfielders on his five aside. I mean he could be could be that sort of player. I don't know I don't know if he's any any good but I'd like Latif would crushe fighter constant touches everywhere on the field And Harrison all fall is one of the most underrated players but the Venezuela one. You've got Joseph. Obviously you've got Chris who I'm obsessed with and would fit in five aside while and junior marina who I think is maybe the most underrated player and MLS. That's like my push and then you've got a few young. Gp's you can throw in on the backside as your other two guys so that's some of them in Peru you've got flora's row will Roy Dias with the fullback from San Jose. Whose name escapes me. Alec Scott Marcus Lopez. Can I throw out an Assegai? Because that's I mean come on You. Have you have keeled? Sanyo's you have. Yeah you have Jonah. You Have Rudolfo. Who We've kind of forgot about 'cause Miami only played two games in their history and that kind of faded off she. Could you go fiero and the back? Pollino come off the bench or something at least in the back fiero glory. And that's the one day you gotTa have a goalkeeper for this right. No small goals. No but then but then it's then that changes where might not need a striker? You just need. I would just pick five midfielders in that case. I guess it would pass it into the goal. Yeah that's not a that's not five proper five. Aside you gotTa pick a goalkeeper. I think a Mexico right. Yeah Bill now. The ZENDEJAS goes day. Hoskin jump in there too. Don't don't just that's Religa Max Starter. I'm not trying to disrespect anybody here. He's a World Cup winner. Us World Cup counts same Columbia Columbia will be good run notice you got Chara. You've got a car if you want. That's a good one. I mean obviously dire own so obviously. That's a big one for. You can't avoid that one if it's playoffs five aside you gotta go dyron how about us. Who would be the? Us Five aside molest right now who you take it. I mean I think you have to have Darlington. Probably Guess Comical. Yeah I would say Paxton as well Trying to think who like who's the best defender in the situation like. Is it an errand long who has has midfield Rapson? You don't need like his ground covering necessarily but has feet probably are in long. Need one more as we need. Goalkeepers this thing we're doing Kaelin's rules. I'm not watching us. It's too puzzles jacket. Gets YOU WATCH ANYTHING RIGHT NOW? That's fair on your transistor. Tv with the rabbit ears and your base and yeah just wrap them up in some aluminum foil. Make sure you get the my. What's my candidate team? Besides Oso I mean you gotTa start with story. I can't I would see commonly your guests now. Mark Anthony is Komo ending this. I don't think so. I love the kid repulsive from From Vancouver I know he's only played one game but he just like there's GonNa be some really really good players who came out draft like riposte is going to be one of them. He's GonNa Rep Canada at. This is probably where we was going to try and cut us off. You know what I learned today. Andy Rose is Australian. Didn't even know that they'd another now. Thought he was just British. Nope Australia is one fans people. I didn't know Richie Lereah for Canada. L. Area go wherever you put them in their own. Can we put two thousand and Sixteen Rahim Edwards in their original high trae are? I'm ready for the It's like he he's going to come back. You're going to find playing time somewhere. It's going to work and now everyone wing back right so you on the right team. I'm going back to Columbia. That's my side all right. I've got any cigar in the back. I'm taking Darwin Concerto. 'cause and he's just sick in small basis for sure Then we have Martino tests scoring goals. Just poaching up top. Diego chargers blocked stopping everything and at twister. That's the best fighter a pretty good team I would. I would think I would put my Mexico team up against that. There's got to be an American one but I just don't know if the American one has the has has like the high end the attacking Thailand. They do. We've probably wrong because we didn't make one right. Oh that's true to be honest. They are an Argentine would be Sebastian Blanco Gustavo. Bo Do throw like atty Kosta on IOS depending on how you want play. Do you go back at all. Would BE GOOD. Bone is maybe less effective without the open space but still filthy. Maxxie Morales one hundred percent number tens. The team ever. It's all it's all number tens in centreback with long hair. Who Falls tried. Have you tried to the England team for fun? We got there the latest. It's it's it's a lot of. Yeah let's see who's WHO's on here. You would definitely need atom in the back Jack Price. Jack Elliott Jack Elliott Gould. Pwb now there's no one else in the league right now. I don't know I'm going Cameroon and I'm just going five new. Who's neither we've got into the new who? I think it's probably time to get out of here. Thank you guys hanging out on. This Thursday had a great time. Yeah let's all I'm Leslie. South Korea put long and bomb with Wipe Lee. GimMe a jersey. Let's go perfect. You're all about the Vancouver Jersey is just. It's your not a bad and I got one owner Jerry. They should win more things so it's cooler to wear. Now that's fair that's fair all right that's Farrah's thanks to these guys. Thank you to unders for doing his thing. Carlos our audio engineer. We should thank him. More effort Alvarez. Yeh Alvarez in that Mexico team which anders here that's that's pretty fun but Yeah Hey thank you while for making extra time of possibility of any news comes out and of course discuss it is prefers. Mls coming back with that. Enjoy your weekend. Everybody enjoy a drink or two of your age. Relaxed mind right freedom and not dwell on twitter. Because he's going to tweet some ridiculous stuff.

Dc MLS DC US soccer sounders L. Afc Atlanta L. AFC Chicago Seattle Toronto New York Eddie Pope Mls Nineteen Ninety United Elliott Roy Lassiter Ben Olsen
SN 762: Virus Contact Tracking

Security Now

1:50:49 hr | 1 year ago

SN 762: Virus Contact Tracking

"It's time for security now. Steve Gibson's here. There is of course lots to talk about a a a farewell to a guy who was very inspirational to both Steve and me in our youth. Another victim of cove in nineteen and. Then Steve will talk about apple and Google's plan to support quarantine and tracking using your iphone and android. Steve Breaks it down. Says how it works explains how it can be used without invading privacy. It's all coming up next unsecurity. Now security now comes to twits last past studios. Stay in control. When it comes to your company's access points and authentication last pass makes enterprise level security simple for your remote workforce checkout last past dot com slash twit to learn more podcasts. You love from people you trust. This is this is security now. Steve Gibson episode seven hundred sixty two recorded Tuesday April fourteenth twenty twenty virus contacts tracking. This episode of security. Now is brought to you by Barracuda. Did you know that? Ninety one percent of all cyber-attacks start with an email to uncover the threats hiding in your office. Three sixty five account get secure and free. E-mail threats can at Barracuda Dot com slash security now and by I. T. Pro TV hit the most up-to-date it training with IT PRO TV. Their video courses virtual labs practice tests will give you everything you need to become a successful. It professional visit it pro dot TV slash security now for an additional thirty percent off for the lifetime of your active subscription use the code S. N. thirty at checkout and by thinks canary detect attackers on your network. While avoiding irritating false alarms. Get the alerts that mattered. Pretend percents off at sixty day. Money back guarantee could dot com slash twit and enter the code twit in the. How did you hear about US box? It's time for security now with a Sassy Steve Gibson. Grc calm that. You're going to have to explain that Leo. I went to so I'm not going to say what it is. But if you miss type Twitter DOT COM SLASH S. Which is his twitter handle if you just slightly mistype it you get somebody called Sassy. Grc WHO's been a member since two thousand twelve with that account so they're not you know not some fly by night trying to steal your and I've never been called. That's Kinda Sassy so do no surprise This week we're going to take a deep technical dive into what exactly it is. That apple and Google have combined their intelligences could who design So but we got a bunch of stuff to talk about. We're going to follow up on a bunch of continuing zoom news since zoom appears to be poised to become the teleconferencing platform of choice for the world They've made more changes. They've been sued of course and they are rapidly taking steps to fix the remaining problems so I wanted to since that was zoom. Go Boom was last week's topic. I wanted to sort of catch up on what's been happening since we've got some browser news. another worrisome. Look I heard you talking about Android Leo and I live in on mcbrayer quickly and I couldn't agree with you more as we got some more worrisome news from taking a look at Android apps using a novel approach to quickly characterize them and what was found we've got an interesting and sad bit of miscellany and I know you already know what it is and do a progress report on spin right which is all good news And then we're going to take a full technical deep dive into the Joint Apple. Google contact tracing system A to the level that our listeners have come to expect from this podcast and by the end the podcast everyone will understand exactly what Google and apple have done. How systems function in detail? And what it means. And I'm expecting we'll have some time for for for you and me Leo to talk about sort of to put that. Put this into context to like you know in terms of abuse and bad news so forth. there's been a lot of misunderstanding. I'm hearing people talking about things. I mean even Moxie who we know is capable of understanding this. He shot off a bunch of a bunch of tweets. Right off the bat. I'm sure before he read the SPEC which were completely incorrect about some of the systems problems. it sounds like subsequently he's he understands how the thing works better but anyway we're going to have a great podcast for our listeners. Once again yeah. He had some real concerns. But I'm glad you're gonNA dresses because I shared megabytes or Gigabytes of data upload download. That's all Oh okay. Yup He he US attack using this bottom line is these guys really nailed it as a as an underlying platform from which more can be built so anyway and that's and that's exactly what a and the team on Tuesday earlier today can can conclude is look. You've got two of the best companies in the world doing this. The nothing's going to be that surprising to them. They're they`ve. I thought that I thought that Andy summed it up perfectly. Which is he would far. Rather have these two companies that that understand the technology and have been so much attacked in the past rather than some random government agencies saying well I don't know but also they own platforms and so it's only Sensible that they should be the ones that come with the API. But we'll talk about. I'm glad you're going to talk about this because I think it's kind of clever. I think it's very interesting. It's really cool. How it works. Our listeners are gonNA love the way it works from a technical standpoint and it it wouldn't do us any good to have it a year from now. Which is you know what the government will would provide we need. We need it in two weeks if it's flying in ten years. Thank you Steve. We'll look forward to all of this in just a moment but first a word from our sponsor very appropriate sponsor for this time. First of all you know the name Barracuda one of the best known names in security. If you're securing your enterprise probably doing it with Barracuda and now there is a problem in the world. A you know what the problem is. But there's an associated problem phishing emails phishing emails all around the covert problem. You've got employees going home. They're working from home and every one of them is getting tons of email every day. Not Going through your company filters not protected but but at home and and they are vulnerable. Ninety one percent of all cyber-attacks start with email. This is the number one vector for ransomware spearfishing account takeover conversation. Hi- hijacking these guys. Are you know they're the crooks are rubbing their hands with glee because they know your employees are home? Basically defenseless. How many employees you got out there? Each of them getting how many emails a day ninety one percent folks one click on the wrong email could cost you money customers. Concussed you re your reputation and you've seen that happen to with companies being breached being becoming a headline. I love the Barracuda blocked by the way. If you go to Barracuda dot com slash security now website Take a look at the blog because they've got great white papers on this and they're researchers at Barracuda have seen a steady increase in the number of corona virus related spear phishing attacks January. Your you know your employees are already home. They're expecting email from you your managers and maybe it's going to be bad coverted and they're clicking on them. They're opening them. A six hundred and sixty seven percent increase in corona virus related spearfishing attacks since the end of February. You need some protection now. If you are using office three sixty five you ought to take a look at Barracuda. Total email protection. This is all in one email security backup solution scanning archiving. It's GOT AI. Protection from spearfishing account takeover business email compromise. It has an automated incident. Response gives you options to quickly and efficiently address these attacks. Because what'll happen is it just won't be just one email to one employee it's GonNa come in a wave in an onslaught. You've got to be ready. And they offer security awareness training for your workforce so they know not to click that link not the open that email that it really didn't come from their manager. Your employees are the first line of defense against attacks. Barracuda's there to help him right now. There are new attacks. It's just shameful. It's shocking it's depressing impersonating the World Health Organization Attackers us. I mean they're clever. They use domain spoofing. They promised information relating to the virus. All at all And they'll say things it'll scare users. It's all about tricking them into a phishing scam. And you're the target. So you WANNA protect your business. You WanNa do it with the best. You WanNa do with Barracuda so right now to cover the threats hiding in your inbox you can get a secure free email threat scan of your office three sixty five account. They'll do the whole account they'll tell you what's in there what it looks like it. Maybe maybe chilling but better to know than not to. It's free no RISK BARRACUDA DOT com slash security now B. A. R. R. A. Cuda DOT COM slash security. Now these guys are great the good citizens they're really talented security guys and the fact that they're giving you this three email. Threats Gant is awesome. Just at least know what's out there. Barracuda DOT com slash security? Now we love Barracuda your journey secured Barracuda Dot com slash security. Now Okay Steve. Back to you guys have also been in the business forever. Era School Big Iron Net networking company. I you know. I'm very used to walking through a data center seeing Barracuda stuff salute. Yeah that's why I trust him. Yeah they're good so our picture of the week. Thanks to a twitter follower sent this. I got a kick out of this because this is something that we've you know all seen in this picture we have To construction workers one with a sledgehammer that have just blasted pounded a hole in someone's wall and interrupted the family meal Mom and dad are both looking at at in horror and shock at this big hole and the kids are hiding behind their chairs. Actually looks like Little Suzy's in a wheelchair so a little more vulnerable and one of them from his hard hat is saying hi. We've changed your privacy settings meaning a guest. The privacy policy is changed after or already using the product is then you can do all. We decided after looking at all the information. We've been collecting. We good monetize the sucker. So Yeah Anyway Fun cartoon and thank you for The the pointer okay. Some zoom follow ups They rushed out. Zoom rushed out another resume. Bombing Mitigation Until these three zoom desktop clients were updated for Lennox Mac and Windows. They were prominently and originally conveniently probably displaying the current zoom meeting. Id in each APPs. Title Bar This behavior which had presumably caused no trouble at all during zoom's first nine years of life since its birth back in two thousand eleven Had suddenly become a significant liability as news. Zuma's were sharing screen shots of their zoom meetings on social media without stopping to consider that they're meeting ide- was also being shared because the screen shot contained the title bar. So you know oops. At as we talked about last week there. Yes there were some problems some fundamental problems with zoom but a lot of the problems were ended up just being a manifestation of the insane overnight popularity of zoom things that you know suddenly when the when everyone started using it and hadn't had a lot of experience using it. They were doing things that they shouldn't have been doing. So there was an across the board update. The meeting. Ide- has been moved from well removed from the title. Bar and placed into a drop down panel for the sessions Info icon which is in the top left of eats zoo map. So there's a little I circled thing you click on it and you know you can get the meeting. Id from there which in a mature APP probably where it should be since we now know that. Just ZOOM IDEA. Itself can be abused. Additionally they've made the management and presumably the need for security related settings more obvious to a meetings hosts last week's update also added a new dedicated security icon to the APPS control panel Where the meeting organizer can manage all security related settings from a single location. Rather than as they were previously having them scattered all over the place and they had to like bounce around among separate dialogues in order to find them all. So these new settings include all the things we talked about last week the ability to lock meetings to enable the waiting room and more Oh and they added another feature. Meeting hosts are now able to enable meaning rooms on the fly even if the feature was turned off before the start of the meeting which hadn't been possible before you had that had to be set up in the CA- the original configuration of the meeting before it was started that they fixed and it also be less often needed since the update now also enables waiting rooms by default for all new meetings And it also mandates that all new conferences be password protected so again I says probably sounded a little upbeat about the speed with which they were. You know zoom was addressing. These problems and I continue feeling that they are being very responsible. you know it went mainstream and lost its innocence pretty quickly and predictably Speaking of losing its innocence last Tuesday one of the company's shareholders. A Michael drew filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of all other shareholders. The suit alleges that zoom made quote materially false and misleading statements unquote that overstated. Its privacy. Insecurity measures that engaged in deception when a claim that its product supported end to end encryption. It does in some cases but as we know not the strength that we're used to And also alleges that zoom only uses encryption for the transport link allowing the service to still access user data and putting users quote at an increased risk of having their personal information access by unauthorized parties including facebook unquote. So yeah this is going to happen. And who knows how this will settle out but you know it will. Meanwhile Zoom has enlisted the aid of someone. Who's moderately famous and. That's Alex Stamos. They reached out to Alex who previously worked at facebook And before that at Yahoo as their well. He's not there while he worked there. Facebook and a yahoo as so their chief information security officer and as we know. Alex departed facebook two years ago back in two thousand eighteen in protest over facebook's handling of data security practices surrounding the Cambridge Analytical Fiasco and Russian interference in the In the twenty six thousand. Us presidential election. Alex had had his eye on facebook's Russian activity since around the summer of two thousand sixteen and wanted the company to go public with his findings but facebook's top exects including Zach refused to allow that to happen so he said I think this is not where I want to be He's now very busy. Being adjunct professor at Stanford's Freeman a spike Lee Institute and a visiting scholar at the Hoover Institution And in a posting of his on medium last Wednesday he said he felt compelled to assist zoom even though he's consumed by other commitments are really liked. What Alex wrote. And we've got time so I wanted to share it with our listeners. He said on his posting on medium last week after I posted a series of tweets discussing the security challenges for Zoom and how they could respond. I got a phone call from Eric. Wan zooms founder and CEO. We talked about the significant challenges. His company was facing both in responding to an incredible growth in users but also living up to the security expectations of the moment. He asked detailed and thoughtful questions of my experiences. Working at companies facing extreme crises and I was impressed by his clear vision resume as a trusted platform and his willingness to take aggressive action to get there. He asked if I would be interested in helping zoom build up its security privacy and safety capabilities as an outside consultant and I readily agreed he and Alec said to be clear. I'm not an employee or an executive of zoom and I don't see and I don't speak for the company. I have refrained from any public comment on zoom or discussions with journalists. Since my call with Eric but in the interest of transparency I think it's important to disclose this work. I don't do a lot of consulting these days I'm generally quite busy with my role at Stanford and I'm proud of the work. That team has been doing during this critical time for disinformation. This opportunity to consult with zoom was too interesting to pass up however and I thought I would explain why I have embraced this challenge first off. Zoom has gone from being a successful mid size enterprise. It company to a critical part of the lives of hundreds of millions in the space of a few months as my CV might suggest. I am attracted to difficult problems. And this creates some doozy's as someone who has walked through the galaxy of blinking lights and deafening were of tens of thousands of servers carrying the sessions of millions of users. I appreciate the effort. It takes to build a product that scales to successfully scale a video heavy platform to such size with no appreciable downtime in the space of weeks is literally unprecedented in the history of the Internet. It has been clear to many people who have worked on production scale systems that something special has been happening at Zoom and the related. Security challenges are fascinating. It's not just the technical challenges that I'm interested in in a time of global crisis. Zoom has become a critical link between co workers family friends and most importantly between teachers and students the morning. Eric called me. He said per an imprint. And most morning since there were five. Simultaneous zoom sessions emerging from my home as my three kids recited the pledge of allegiance in their virtual morning assembly. My wife supported her middle school. Students and I participated in a morning. Stand up with my Stanford colleagues like many techies I've used zoom professionally for a while but I admit that there was still a bit of culture shock as my wife taped a daily calendar full of zoom meeting codes to our eight year old daughter's desk the adaptation of successful enterprise collaboration tool into virtual classrooms virtual doctors offices and a myriad of other applications including at least one virtual cabinet room has created privacy trust and security challenges that no company has ever faced as I told the computer science students in my trust and safety engineering course this last quarter the last two weeks of which were taught over yes. Zoom coding flaws and cryptographic issues are important but the vast majority a real technological harm to individuals comes from people using products in a technically correct but harmful manner zoom has some important work to do in core application security cryptographic design an infrastructure security and. I'm looking forward to working with zooms engineering teams on those projects and he finishes saying still. I'm certain that the real challenge one face by every company trying to provide for the diverse needs of millions seeking low friction. Collaboration is how to empower once. Customers without empowering those who wished to abuse them I encourage the entire industry to use this moment to reflect on their own security practices and have honest conversations about things. We could all be doing better. This is possibly the most impactful challenge faced by the TECH INDUSTRY IN THE AGE OF KOVIC. Nineteen and together. We can make some positive something positive out of these difficult times and ensure that communications are safer and more secure for all so anyway. I thought that was a a great piece of communication and I think it really nicely sort of frames. Where's zoom is and again. I'm impressed with the idea that that Eric the zoom CEO would proactively. Reach out to Alex and say. Hey you've been in the middle of this before. Would you be willing to give us a hand and following up on that last Wednesday the day before Alex? Stay Moses blog posting on medium zooms CEO. Eric Wan also announced. The Zoom had formed a CIS. Oh Council and visory board to collaborate and share ideas regarding how to address this the zooms current security and privacy issues In his announcement he wrote I'm truly humbled that in less than a week after announcing our ninety day plan some of the most well respected see. Iso's in the world have offered us their time and services this includes CIS owes from vm. Ware Net flicks Uber Electronic Arts. Hsbc NTT data pro core and Ellie Mae. He said the purpose of the CIS. Oh Council will be to engage with us in ongoing dialogue about privacy security and technology issues and best practices to share ideas and collaborate. So anyway I think these are all good moves as I noted last week. No one has yet taken a deep. Look into their crypto And someone needs to What we've seen is that there. Ecmm their electronic code book mode of Crypto is almost certainly leaking repeating patterns from from plain text and that suggests that it really needs a closer look if they've more deeply rolled their own crypto solutions and if Zuma's headed toward becoming the world's teleconferencing platform of choice then one thing zooms. Ceo Ought to do. And perhaps Alex or one of the CIS Os will recommend that if they haven't already would be to open their system to an independent security audit. There will be there were a number of stories last week about major companies already preemptively banning all use of zoom. Just as a result of the bad press. That happened SPACEX and Google among them. I understand the emotional reaction to the initial security troubles but most of the headline making was as we said at the time from high profile zoom bombing which was mostly the result of lax security measures on the part of the conference organizer. You know just. This is all new to everybody to or to hundreds of millions of users at least Due to the massive rapid uptake of Zoom And you know is probably a lot of people's first experience using the platform So pro should surprise. No one that. Nah that some mistakes were made and to zooms credit. They've already fixed all of those defaults Done everything they can to shore things up but I think an independent security audit Is probably now one of the many things at zoom needs? But I'm impressed by what I've continued to see. I think they've they've continued to make a lot of the right moves browser news. We've got a couple little tidbits on schedule. Or on Corona virus revised schedule. Google released chrome eighty-one last week. As expected chrome is becoming less tolerant of with the release. Eighty one chrome has become less tolerant of mixed content images as we know mixed content means that whereas the the underlying web page is delivered over a T. L. S. authenticated and encrypted thus https connection passive images or actually passive content are explicitly using H. T. t. p. rather than https and I say explicitly because of an images you are l. leaves off any protocol specification that is the http or https. The browser will default to using the same protocol. Https in this case as the underlying web page until Chrome eighty-one mixed content was being allowed because it was regarded as passive content images audio video and object links were all considered to be passive content. That is to say they were allowed to be pulled over. Http whereas scripts in. I frames things that are more active and potentially dangerous Were considered active content. So they were already being rigorously blocked from mixed content loading but chrome. Anyone changes this from now on and or I might say unless it resulted in too much breakage in which case Google could be seen to back off. Chrome will override even an explicit H. T. t. p. colon slash slash U. R. L. Protocol and actively. Replace it with https. And if the asset content cannot be delivered over hd he s well. That's just too bad. The image won't be loaded and it will show as broken on the web page so that's happening now and we'll see what the downstream consequences are for that. Maybe it just you know old web pages if the page itself was secure images are coming from presumably the same domain then. It's hard to see why they couldn't be secure to and Goule has already done some instrumentation and telemetry and look to see. What was going on Chrome eighty-one also brings us another a new feature and that's web NFC support. This is a world wide web. Consortium you know w three C standard now here in chrome it will allow web pages to read and write to. Nfc TAGS when they're close to the user's laptop or computer as we know NFC uses near field are F- technology and in fact NFC stands for near field communications. Which has arranged down at at these power levels of two to four inches so virtually in contact with each other The initial release of this. Api supports a widely compatible. Universal Data Interchange Format Noda's N D E F standing for NFC data exchange format. It's a lightweight binary message format which is widely cross. Nfc Tag compatible at the moment apps are able to access a devices underlying NFC API We see this for example with apple pay on IOS So having native NFC supporting chrome will open opportunity for NFC to be available to a broad range of websites. So we'll see how that goes Who knows what use it will be put to? But for example a web page that wasn't previously able to access an NFC security tag could potentially do that whereas you know it wouldn't have had direct access before that chrome eighty-one also fixed thirty two different security problems varying degrees. None were critical three were rated high and the rest were about half and half split between medium and low security so not much to see there we were also just last week talking about the need to update to fire Fox. Seventy four point zero point one which eliminated that pair of zero day. Use after free memory. Vulnerabilities that were found being deployed in the wild in targeted attacks. Now today we have fire Fox seventy five. It's sixty few problems. And the only real thing that changed is that they've sort of upped the ante a little bit with their background telemetry collecting. They'd always been collecting telemetry or at least has been for a while And they've explained what and why I've got a link to their page in the show notes if anyone is concerned or worried What they said is that Fire Fox collect telemetry data by default. We collect this to help. Improve performance and stability Afire Fox. Telemetry data is made up of two data sets interaction data and technical data interaction. Data includes information about your interactions with fire. Fox To us such as number of open tabs and windows number of web pages visited number and type of installed Fire Fox. Add ONS and session links as well as fire. Fox features offered by Mozilla or our partners such as interaction with Fire Fox search features and search partner referrals. Technical data includes information about your fire Fox version and language device operating system and hardware configuration memory basic information about crashes and errors outcome of automated processes like updates safe browsing and activation to us when. Fire Fox sends data to US. Your Ip address is temporarily collected as part of our server logs. Ip addresses are deleted after thirty days. If you're interested you can read more about how we handle your data in our in depth documentation about our data platform. They set. They finish saying we do not know about your specific interactions with fire. Fox We just know the number of tabs a user had opened and how long they were opened. And in fact if you're using fire Fox you in the url you can put about colon telemetry Which will display your browsers telemetry collected information? So you can get a sense for and see what stuff is being gathered and sent back. And it's entirely possible to opt out of providing this feedback fire. Fox says you can opt out of sending any fire Fox telemetry information at any time. If you opt out of sending telemetry data. We will also treat this as a request to delete any data we previously collected. Data will be deleted within thirty days after you opt out. So they're handling that responsibly. Again it is on by default. But you if you go under the menu under options privacy insecurity and then look for Fire Fox data collection and use. You'll find a box with some check boxes. And you just turn off the ones that. You're not comfortable with okay. So what's been added with two Firefox seventy-five apparently and I don't know what be interested to know like behind the scenes. What's really going on? But they decided that they wanted to know what a user's browser choice was even if the user was not using fire Fox or presumably after a user has changed their default away from Fire Fox or maybe using a different browser so fire Fox. Seventy five now contains a new separate process which is launched by the windows task scheduler once a day to Ping a report back to Mozilla and apparently they actually use ICMP ping messages. Remember you know that things can contain a data payload they often just heck contain like very little of nothing. But you can send data if you if you're not concerned about it getting there and reliability and so forth. So that's what they do so Mozilla explained of this change in seventy five. They said with Fire Fox seventy-five we're launching a new scheduling task for windows. That will help us understand. Changes in default browser settings as with all other telemetry related changes here at Mozilla. This schedule task has gone through our data review. A process designed with user choice and PRI- privacy at its core. They said we're collecting information related to the system's current and previous default browser setting as well as the operating system locale and version. This data cannot be associated with regular profile based telemetry data. So it's being. It's a separate process being sent separately. If you're interested in the Schema you can find it here. And they provided a link. I've got in the show notes. It does show you exactly the stuff that's being sent It's an XML file. And I looked at it. It looks very innocuous. They said the information we collect is sent as a background Telemetry Ping every twenty. Four hours will respect user configured telemetry opt out settings by looking at the most recently used firefox profile will respect custom enterprise telemetry related policy settings if they exist will also respect policy to specifically disabled this task so anyway I wanted to let our users. No that's going on in case anyone cares again. I'm sort of. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall to know you know what like why it is that they're wanting to get this what they're what they're interested about like what they think might be happening But anyway that's happening. So we're on the same page with chrome eighty one and fire Fox. Seventy five And remember that since Krome's eighty one was delayed. Google still plans to skip eighty two entirely. Apparently they're like committed this release schedule by by version number and so they plan to deliver eighty-three on its regular schedule. And they're still imagining that eighty-three will have T- LS Version one Owen. One one again removed member. They put it back or they. They chose not to remove it as they were previously expecting to now. They say they're GONNA do that in eighty three. I'll be surprised if that happens this year. I think eighty-three is aimed at this summer. And that still seems a Little Soon Leo. Let's take our second break and then we will go into some Non Browser Security News indeed indeed. Thank you Steve. Our show today brought to you by T. PRO TV. I know a lot of you. Don't even need this Ad. You're already lifetime subscribers. I talked to people all the time who say all man. I T PRO. Tv was a great way for me to get my. It chops to get that cert-. So I get that job to get a better job And we love it. Pro For that reason Right now with everything going on in the world travel restrictions and social distancing shelter in place. Never been a better time to take advantage of. It pro TV go to it. Pro Dot TV slash security now. This is remote learning but these is this is not an example of somebody who is a teaching a class and then had to put it on zoom. These guys have been doing it for a long time. And they have it down binge worthy learning for. 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Apps in the crosshairs This research was conducted by a team at at Ohio State University of New York University and the Hem Holtz Center for information security known as C. I. S. P. A. The paper that resulted was titled Automatic uncovering of Hidden Behaviors from input validation in mobile APPS. It's act it's a very clever approach. The sheer volume as we know of Android apps submitted to the Google play store means that an automated I passed screening system. Is the only possible means for even trying to put a dent in the task of discovering those that might have a hidden purpose otherwise and even so it's possible to simply you know have militias apps get lost in the crowd. The abstract of their paper. I've got linked to the entire Pdf in the show notes for anyone who's interested. The abstract reads mobile. Applications APPS have exploited have exploded in popularity with billions of smartphone users using millions of APPS available through markets. Such as the Google play store or the apple APP store. While these APPs have rich and useful functionality that publicly exposed to end users they also contain hidden back doors that are not disclosed such as back doors and blacklists designed to block unwanted content in this paper. We show that the input validation behavior that is the way the mobile apps process and respond to data entered by users. Conserve as a powerful tool for uncovering such hidden functionality. As just a very clever approach they said we therefore have developed and a tool input scope that automatically detects both the execution context of user input validation and also the content involved in the validation to automatically expose the secrets of interest. We tested input scope with over one hundred and fifty thousand mobile apps including popular apps from major APP stores and pre installed APPs shipped on the phone and found twelve thousand seven hundred and six mobile apps with back door secrets and four thousand twenty eight mobile APPs containing blacklist secrets. Okay so They note that the probe deeper into the paper. They note that they the problems they discovered. Were not just theoretical And sighting from the paper they said nor are such cases theoretical by manually examining several mobile APPs which which their input scope tool found potentially bad. They said we found that a popular remote control APP with ten million installs contains a master password. That can unlock access. Even when locked remotely by the phone owner when the device is lost meanwhile we also discovered a popular screen locker at with five million installs uses an access key to reset arbitrary users passwords to unlock enter the system. In addition we also found that a live streaming APP with five million installs contains an access key to enter its administrator interface through which an attacker can reconfigure the APP and unlock additional functionality. Finally we found a popular translation APP with one million installs containing a secret key to bypass the payment for advanced services such as removing the advertisements displayed in the APP. Excuse me what. They realized these guys was that secret back. Doors or other behaviors. I are often accessed through the front door. So they ran their static code analysis tool input scope against the Em- put handling logic of Android apps and they found a significant number of designed in misbehavior and as they said these were not obscure APPs. They took the top hundred thousand. Most popular APPs on Google play The thirty thousand APS Preinstalled on Samsung Devices How could you have thirty thousand APS PREINSTALLED ON SAMSUNG DEVICES? But that's what that's what the page says and twenty thousand taken from the alternative Chinese market by. Do the study examined two issues. What proportion of APPS exhibited secret back doors and how they might be used or abused so that's a total a hundred thousand? Google play thirty thousand Preinstalled on Samsung devices. Twenty thousand taken from the equivalent Chinese market. They examined two issues. What proportion of APPS exhibited secret back doors and how they might be abused or used of the one hundred fifty thousand total twelve thousand seven hundred and six exhibit a range of behaviors indicating the presence of some sort of back door? That is to say they. In the input handling logic input scope found twelve thousand eight hundred twelve thousand seven hundred and six were had like code for special case handling of specific things a secret access key a master password or secret commands and another four thousand twenty eight. That seemed to be checking user. Input against specific blacklisted words. Such as political leaders names I- incidents in the news or racial discrimination. Looking at the back doors both Google play APPs and those from alternate stores such as by By do showed roughly the same percentage of APPs falling into the back door category. Six point eight percent from Google. Play five point three percent from by do. Interestingly for pre installed bloat wear APPs that is you know the APPs that are gonNA come pre installed on phones. The percentage showing. This behavior was double the other sources at around sixteen percent and this finding supports a public open letter. That was sent to Soon Dr Pichai at Google. Yea last January by privacy international which was critical of the way pre installed. Apps were often not scrutinized for privacy and security problems. A separate Spanish study last year documented that the providence of pre installed APPs was often shadowy based on commercial relationships between phone makers that the end user would not be aware of The team took a closer look at thirty APPs picked at random from APPs with more than a million installs the ones. I was talking about finding that one installed with the ability for someone to remotely log into its admin interface others could reset user passwords bypass payment interfaces initiate hidden behaviors using secret commands or just stop users from accessing specific sometimes political content in so foces coverage of this research. They wrote quote. Perhaps the biggest consequence from the study is simply how many Google play apps exhibit these behaviors while the play store is large. The fact that several thousand okay. Twelve twelve from among the top hundred thousand APS have hidden back door. Behavior hardly inspires confidence and there is currently no easy way. Short of the sort of weeks long analysis carried out by the researchers using dedicated tool to know which APPs operate this way so foces reporting concluded. That's not so much a back door as a blind spot. Another problem. Google's sometimes chaotic android platform could do without and feel about this. How so well let me explain to me? So it's not at all unusual for developer to put a back door of the kind that you described where I'm going to distribute this to some people. I'll give them a special codes. They don't have to see the ads without paying or developer. I mean we see that. All the time developed software where you developer has you know God mode that they can test makes it easy for them to test. It's not at all unusual for that. To happen. Is is so for saying the very existence of those makes them vulnerable to fussing and other kinds of hacking no because volt for example The there was an instance of a remote control APP that had a PA- a remote authentication bypass ask. Yeah Yeah but that but also referred to some APPS I mean. What percentage of these APPs just have developer back doors for bug testing things like that or like friends and families that inherited? No so I agree with you it. It is not. It's not the case that all of these things are bad. What what their tool fines is. Is that the APPs have some have undocumented behavior and without looking more closely we we need to know what that is that is program in the world has undocumented behavior. That's not at all unusual because you I mean. Remember this windows. Api secrets the secret. You know windows codes that when Microsoft never told you unless they're inherently if it makes it vulnerable somehow because they could be manipulated that I would understand but yeah so I guess so certainly less than given the population breakdown they talked about less than twelve th less than those twelve thousand were malicious right. But there were some that were we could. We would hope that the that the majority are not the. I guess the point is the see. I don't know why they mentioned the ones that are not like okay. You found some of their militias. I think they inflated their numbers is what I'm saying. Well and I think also they were. They were enamored of their input that they can do. Static analysis put to find said. Look at all the special casing behavior we found. But that's just not. I just don't think that's inherently dangerous. That that yeah of course. Good job but that's not inherently dangerous. Some is potentially right right. I agree with you bypassing. The need to pay for it not much right and speaking of Sophos sandbox. He has gone open source. Oh good at. That's grass yes. It is very cool for more than fifteen years. Sandbox he has been a Sophos project It's now been released into the open source community for its continued maintenance and evolution you and Leo on security now episode. One hundred and seventy two way back then may twenty seventh of two thousand eight. Our episode was titled Sandbox. Where we took a deep dive into its operation. I had apparently looking back at the notes I had interviewed the original author of it and I brought everything I learned from my interview of him into that podcast and talked about it. It was originally intended just to sandbox web browsers. I think it was just a one fact. He was an e. Yes it was just meant to sandbox Internet explorer then it broadened to others and now it's become a very capable general purpose application isolation rapper. Where you can. You can run any APPS that you're uncomfortable with in the sandbox Sandbox seat at a very low level intercepts any of the windows. Api Hooks which would be dangerous things like you know writing a file writing so that it. The APP thinks it wrote to where it wrote an if then reads it back. It comes back it it. Thanks from there but it's actually sequestered that into the the the sandbox and then you're later able to decide what you WANNA do that. Typically you just flush anything that it did because you want safety anyway. I just want to let everyone know it's www dot San boxy dot com. It was always free but the sense I got I read it. I read a little bit of background. Is that so I thing and now you know. We got other fish to FRY now. We're busy. We're not giving this the attention that that maybe it deserves. Let's just let it loose into the open source community and up and so it can continue to live there which is very cool. Hey yeah you know more stuff? Should that should happen to companies? You know continue Fort Worth it. Give it away yes. It's perfect so Leo. I think there'll be some intersection between us On this on this next topic a little bit of miscellany. I discovered scientific American magazine. Guess I know where you go in my in my high school years. Yep It was incredibly influential for me Since it science writing was pitched at just the right level Toward the back of every issue was a monthly column called Mathematical Games written by? And I imagine this guy's name is familiar to us. All Martin Gardner and he was quite influential. Wikipedia noted that Gardner's Mathematical Games column became the most popular feature of the magazine and was the first thing is certainly was for me that many readers turned two in September of nineteen seventy seven scientific. American acknowledged the prestige and popularity of gardeners column by moving it from the back of the magazine to the very front. The main -scribed. Yes Yeah the column Ran. Get this from nineteen fifty six now. That was a year after I was born and a probably one or two years before I was born and was the euro was Oh okay From fifty six through nineteen eighty-one with sporadic columns afterwards and it was the first introduction of many subjects that Gardner talked about to a wider audience. And the point of this bit of history is that it was Martin Gardner's October Nineteen Seventy column published early in my Sophomore Year of high school. Where Gardner introduced his readers to John. Horton Conway's amazing. Game of life We've spoken of Conway's game of life many times through the years on this podcast. Conway's creation was incredibly elegant in the simplicity of its rules and the complexity of its results. And it rather clearly divided all people who were exposed to it into two camps those who thought it was the coolest thing they had ever seen and those who thought that the first group might benefit from medication. I never got over. The game of life never knows thing ever the the world hasn't needless to say you and I were members of the first camp and the game has the game at the time consumed me for a long time. Yup wikipedia has a terrific page about Conway's game of life. Anyone who's listening to this podcast. Who doesn't already know what we're talking about. Must go to the wikipedia page. If you don't know what a glider is go now and in that glide that glider gun up there in the upper. Right which is emitting gliders There are some beautiful animated D- Gifts or gifts on on How you pronounce it. the pages beautiful all our desktop. P. C.'s and smartphones have implementations of Conway's of life And while you're stuck at home waiting for this pandemic to subside you will not be bored. Sadly I bring this up. Because last Saturday April Eleventh Kovic nineteen claimed the life of John Conway Wikipedia rights John Horton. Conway was an English mathematician active in the theory of finite groups not theory. That's actually a thing. Not Theory Number Theory. Combinatorial Games about topology. That's exciting stuff yeah. It's very cool stuff and coding theory. He also made contributions to many branches. A recreational mathematics most notably the invention of the cellular automaton called the game of life. Conway spent the first half of his long career at the University of Cambridge in England and unfortunately as it turns out the second half at Princeton University in New Jersey and of course we know that New Jersey is one of the spots. That's had a big flare up of of coverted Where he held the title John Von Neumann Professor Emeritus on eleventh of April. Twenty twenty at age eighty two. He died of cove nineteen at his home in New Jersey. Said so I just wanted to mention that to our listeners. You know Very influential so much being the game of life it. It's it's so simple yet. What it does put it produces is fantastic and I mean there's been so much work done like in like it's it's a perfect place for a person to like practice their coding skills. What is the fastest life generator I can produce? And there's been there have been papers written about optimizing the speed at which you iterating over a group of cells which are still alive how to not bother spending time in dead areas and and predict a man just a really cool things there are there are there are things that move across the grid and of course you know see is is in the game of life is this is the speed of light which in the Physical Universe is. The is the fastest that anything can travel. So of course you have C. Equals one grid per one? Grid Sits one-cell grid per iteration is see in the game of life and so you have different things that move different percentages of see. I mean there's there's a whole vocabulary. There's there's loafs and blinkers gliders and this space ships on three rules. That's it yes. Rules for how. These things generate is so cool. It's so cool. Just love it. Yeah so that's why they do it because it's very easy to write a program that does it. Jarry. Yeah Yeah I mean yeah. It's couldn't be easier. That's so cool. I have a little bit of Spin Right News. I finally am. I am finally making very good progress toward the next spin right. I had a surprising number of challenges. Getting to where. I've finally been for the last four days since I plan to be spending a lot of time. During this development cycle working on a combination of spin writes six point x releases and also the beyond recall utility which will be born from this work. I wanted to S- to set things up right. I wanted to invest in the creation of an efficient development environment so I would not be spending a lot of time in repetitive and unnecessary overhead. Turns out that the lack of support for sixteen bit code by today's sixty four bit oh S.'s. Coupled with the fact that my tool chain turns out to depend upon a number of sixteen bit components. was was a lot more troublesome than I expected I also needed to link the DOS test. The physical dos testing target machines. Which only know about sm be version. One that's the latest version of file sharing that it will remember? It was windows for workgroups. Is what Microsoft called it I needed to link them to file shares on a win. Ten machine At my location with Laurie. I have windows ten where I am here. My my my fortress of solitude. I'm using windows seven but I want to be able to develop in the evenings to keep working through. The evenings underwent windows ten and win those ten strongly resists having anything to do with that original. Sm B V One. You have to do a whole bunch of things to get that working. I also ended up in investing spending consuming and losing a week trying to get the open. Watt COM REMOTE DEBUGGING TO WORK. It's the only remote debugging that can still debugged a Dos. Target machine from windows. It's incredibly finicky. But I did finally manage to get working only to discover that it does not handle believe it or not included code in source files. That has you. You can't if you if you try to step into or jump to code that's include it. Won't it shows you the proper line number? But it doesn't change the source file. And I said really I verified this with the maintainers of the Open Watt Com project. He said Yeah We don't do that okay. Well I can't use it So anyway I find it ended up returning to my tried and true pure sixteen bit tools and I have finally achieved my target in spades. I have a highly efficient development and testing environment established and working. And using that. I've been writing code for Intel's. Ah Ci Controller SPEC when it's in a HCI mode remember that prior to this work. The work I've been doing back in two thousand four No twenty thirteen as when I was working on when I stopped working on on spin right six in order to do squirrel so it was in two thousand thirteen there were we still had legacy mode for the controller And most system still had that you it was something you were able to choose and the BIOS and so What we know is that the next spin right needs to know how to talk to. Ah Ci controllers in their native. Ah See I mode. So that's the code that I'm writing now Most modern systems will be in age. See I mode and in fact the latest. Ah See I Hardware has dropped support for legacy mode altogether. So it's not because it's not needed by any current S.'s. And wanting to won't be possible to switch back into legacy mode so I have support for that that I wrote back in two thousand thirteen spin still have that but what I'm working now on is is full on eight C. I. Controller And once I got this environment established for days ago. I plowed into the controller SPEC and began writing code. What I discovered is that Intel's. Hci Controller is an amazing piece of engineering a week ago. It seemed large mysterious daunting and opaque today. I can report that it to me. It now seems clear and obvious. I feel like I've obtained the mindset that the engineers who originally defined it had an all makes perfect sense so I'm very excited to put it through its paces And when I head back to My place with Lori this evening I'll sit down and continue writing code so I expect to have something for the the the early release testers to begin pounding on very shortly so getting there there is. I should have mentioned ex- K. C. d. A comic Eulogizing John Conway could have been your picture of the week. Yep I'd I didn't see it until too late this it started. Ed Starts Person. Yeah Yup and there he goes Barry. Nicely done yeah. That's really sweet. Actually I think that's I think I would've loved it. Yep So last break. And then let's go into the technical details of what apple and Google have designed to enable anonymous location free contact. Tracing can't wait. I'm very excited about that. But before we do that. Let me show you this little Doo Hickey. Oh I love this baby this is my canary. It is well. It's really what started this show way back when it's a honeypot and It's it's a honeypot that you can configure in minutes to look like anything it honeypots. Don't look vulnerable on your network. They look valuable and the canary is such a perfect example of this. You've all heard of advanced persistent threats. This is the worst nightmare for any see so any cio any CEO. They do not want to hear that. All your boss it turns out these guys have been on the network for months in the case for instance of Marriott Years Oh it's your worst nightmare takes on average a hundred ninety one days for a company to realize. There's been a data breach because packers cover their tracks. So what you do. You put one of these canaries or two or three or four. Depends on the size of your network on your network. You set them up to look like something real and I mean anything from a windows server. Two mind set up to look like a NASA Sinology. Nass and when you go to it when you find it you will get the Sinology log in page. The MAC address will be a SINOLOGY MAC address. You'll actually be prompted to enter a log in and password. You'll never know the hacker would never know that it's not a sinology box it's thinks canary and the thing is when he enters those credentials. He's telling you something about what he already knows. He's this is valuable stuff and then the other thing that carry does so well is. It doesn't bombard you with alerts when there's an attack on the canary. It gives you a sensible actionable alert. It tells you exactly what you need to know with everything going on in the world. Today you need a thinks canary. Those guys are out there banging harder than ever data breaches on the rise and it's always. It's always amazing to me that these companies will say you know Sony Pictures Entertainment. Yeah they got an A. May when did you find out about my around December? What meanwhile hackers exfiltrated terabytes of data including full length movies without anybody knowing? Not If there were canary? I can I can promise you. Canaries are to use. They can be configured in minutes and you're gonNA forget about them. That's the best part we've had this canary on the network for a couple of years. Now one incident Meghan brought in a. I think it was a western digital Passport something like that. And for some reason it was pinning every all over the network he was pinning. It was looking every device in the network so I got an alert from the Canary Soda. Russell saying There's something at ten thousand nine hundred seventy three four. That's been hitting me stop me. That's what we we've tracked it down with something within the network we found. We disconnected it. That was minor example. But it made me feel good made me no you know the canary is Gonna. Let me know if something happens. If you need to be alerted you can choose from e mail text message you can have a console get the Canary Console. You can use slack. They support web hooks. That means you pretty much do it. Anywhere SIS log there's even an API alerts dead simple easy to work with. Give you just what you need to know. And not more. No no flooding at the beauty of this is in the fun thing about is all the different ways. You can configure your canary. You can even say today your scattered advice. I mean it's amazing. You can put fake files on them. You can enrollment active directory. Make a little easier to find him or you could be cagey in fact. That's why it's probably good to have a few. You can have some. That really look like well. We really tried to hide this. And that are just sitting out there in the open. Plus once you have a canary device on your network you can create unlimited Canary Tokens. These are files. Pdf word documents spreadsheets. That aren't files. I have spreadsheets scattered around our network this say payroll information employee information. Social Security Numbers. That kind of thing. Anybody tries to open that boom. I get a message. I know thinks canaries are deployed all over the world on all seven continents. If you want to see some of the people not everybody to using it because you know the best thing about canaries no one knows. It's there right but if you just go to the The thinks website which is canary dot tools slash love. You'll see a bunch of tweets from very famous SEASO's the Security Guy at slack Saying how much they love their canary. I I can't remember what he said. Something like only three things you need to protect your network one of them the Canary. Here's the deal. You could try these for two months. No cost no obligation visit canary tool slash twit. While no cost if you return it. It's a seventy five hundred dollars a year for five as an example but you see some companies have hundreds some companies have just a handful but roughly speaking say you wanted five seventy five hundred dollars that includes your own hosted upgrades or some breaks. They just send you knew and no big deal. You get support you get maintenance if you will use the code for US twit in the. How did you hear about US box? They'll give you ten percent off not just for your first bundle but for life ten percent off. We know you're gonNA love it but again if you're not happy. Two months money-back guarantee full refund. So there's no risk doing this and I'm telling you once you get these on your network. It just gives you such peace of mind you will literally sleep better canary dot com slash twit. You don't want somebody nosing around your stuff. The best way to find a a bad guys to them something to tip toe into they look. Yeah I guess Play with it. Then you'll know canary dot tools slash twit twit in the. How did you hear about SPOCK's all right Steve Back to work okay? So What we know is that apple and Google have engineers crypto. People have gotten together and design something which they are immediately implementing I think they're working both of them on putting this into a P. is on their respective platforms To which applications can be written But they've also said that because they recognized that the potential need for contact tracing is not going away anytime soon. They intend to assume as they can submerge this technology into the underlying os so contact tracing with this design will be part of both IOS and android moving forward. So what I WANNA do. Is I explain exactly what the technology is exactly how it works. And then Leo you and I will discuss you. Know the implications and upsides and downsides spoofing and and all the other things okay so A and I I should just mention that Even when this is submerged into the phone this is a. it's interesting notice. It's not contact tracking. It's because I'm sure tracking is a bad word it's contact tracing so but even so. I'm sure there will be a setting to turn it off if you don't want that feature on in your IOS or android device so all of this is is explicitly opt in and If the user chooses to participate in this and I I was listening to you. Talk about this and Mac break weekly and agreeing that that this potentially offers enough collective benefit and I think we will see from the technology that they have really dealt with the the arguments that uninformed people have that this makes a lot of sense okay so when contact tracing is. I brought up on a device. Ios android whatever and rightly. Oh for people who don't have smartphones. It would be entirely possible to have a little credit card size puck of some sort which is only a a bluetooth beacon thing like some lower cost alternative. If there was some reason to do that so you could certainly do that. So each instance synthesizes from high entropy a single master tracing key. So that is so. It's a two hundred fifty six bit master. Id for the device one. It's there's only one of them. It is well protected. Never need for it to be changed so each device has this single master key from that a tracing key so So so there. I'm sorry there's the master tracing key from that a daily tracing key which is half the size it's one hundred. Twenty eight bit is deterministic. Lead derived. From hashing the master tracing key with the UNIX EPOCH. Day number which we know the number of days since January first nineteen seventy so this tracing key the the daily tracing key changes every day once per day and its derived from the master tracing key but because the tracing key is the is the output of an h. Mac based key derivation function. The the master tracing key is never revealed and the daily sequence of daily tracing keys cannot be predicted so however as we'll see and this is important the device that contains the master tracing key can itself because it it alone has. It's the master tracing key it can recreate any previous day's tr- daily tracing keys that it may choose to and we'll see why that's important here in a second okay If the user of the device should subsequently test positive for Kovic nineteen the user can instruct the device to upload to a regional health server a block of previous day's Daily tracing keys for the period during which they may have been contagious. So we'll just sort of hold that thought for a second 'cause we went there's more we need to explain but I wanted to explain where so that so there's the master key. The master key is hashed with the day in order to produce a daily key which which because the day changes every day that daily key changes every day but the but the way this is designed the way they designed it this way. Is that if at some point any point in the future you you were to test positive for cove at nineteen you could say. Oh shoot and you could upload to a shared server and we'll talk about the way that's done in a second The set of previous day's tracing keys. They don't reveal the master key. They're just the tracing keys that you had on earlier days so so the point is because they are derived from the day number. You don't need to store those daily tracing keys. You can get them anytime you want. Okay so we've got a daily tracing key. The there is a what's the thing that is actually transmitted in the in the Bluetooth Beacon is called a rolling proximity identifier. Oh and I forgot to mention because this this reminds me a here again that tracing key is half size. Remember the master keys to fifty six bits. We want to fifty six bits for maximum entropy. So we don't get collisions among these randomly chosen tracing keys because they're all just chosen independently. The trade the daily tracing key is a compromise because they they do transact online they need to be stored in a server and the only real need is to avoid collisions. It's a half size key. One Hundred Twenty eight bit key which provides still plenty of entropy but it was chopped in half just because there was no need there for two hundred fifty six bits okay so this. The rolling proximity identifier is also a half size. That is a chopped in half. It's a sixteen byte hundred. Twenty eight bit value set out as the beacon from all participating devices at. We've discussed several times in the past how to prevent Bluetooth tracking all modern devices already. Randomize their Bluetooth Mac addresses those MAC addresses change on a random schedule between once every ten to twenty minutes so on average every fifteen minutes so but when you see fifty minutes think of well yeah but actually it's between ten and twenty minutes. The the the the device chooses a time period in the future between ten and twenty minutes to next rotate. Or You know pick a new Bluetooth. Mac Address the systems this rolling proximity identifier which is a thing that has actually sent. It is changed. Synchronised with the MAC address changes so the rolling proximity identifier changes with the MAC address when the user has enabled contact tracing every time their Bluetooth address changes a new rolling. Proximity identifier is generated. That's the actual data contained by the Bluetooth Packet since the Bluetooth Mac address and the rolling proximity identifier change synchronous Louis. What that means. Is that no single identifier will straddle MAC addresses. And no single Mac address will straddle identifiers. That means it's not possible to link and track contact tracing by Mac address or vice versa. The value of this one hundred twenty eight bit rolling proc proximity identifier is also fully deterministic fully determined. It's derived from that daily tracing key and a ten minute window number from the start of the day so so it's you take the number of seconds so far that you are into the into the day divide that by the number of seconds in ten minutes to get an integer which is the essentially the ten minute interval that you're in so that's a. That's something that will be changing every ten minutes throughout the day so everyone who's voluntarily participating in this contact. Tracing System is emitting one hundred twenty eight bit identifiers which are ultimately derived from their master that grandmaster two hundred fifty six bit master tracing key which in turn creates a daily tracing key based on the day of the epoch that we're all in together the number of days since January first nineteen seventy which is then used its hashed with along with the nut the the ten minute window of the time of day to create a a a proximity this rolling proximity identifier which changes every ten minutes and this was cleverly done. They clearly did this on purpose. Notices since the MAC address changes every ten to twenty minutes and the rolling proximity identifier is calculated on a ten minute scale. No two sequential Mac addresses can ever have the same rolling proximity identifier. So this was carefully. Assembled to to ensure privacy. Okay so we have a system where participating devices are broadcasting an identifier which changes unpredictably from the outside once every ten to twenty minutes and again because it changes with a MAC address and the Mac Address. Interval is deliberately fuzzed. It's on an average of every fifteen minutes. And every participating device is also collecting all of the similar incoming hundred twenty eight bit rolling proximity identifiers from everyone nearby You could also use for example the received signal strength identifier if you wanted to get some sense of the of the physical proximity of the two devices so for example the API might say. Well you know yes. We received the beacon. But my God would be the. The received signal strength is so low that that's probably further away than viral contamination could occur. So we're not gonNA bother with that one so there might be a received signal strength threshold below which the beacons even though they are received their ignored as just being you know unlikely to actually represent for the no the other person or you represent a threat to either of you Okay so if the if the device has not before seen the hundred twenty eight bid rolling proximity identifier It will be maintaining a list of them so if it hasn't seen it it will add to the list. And since there's no need to retain previously received rolling proximity identifiers forever. They can be and will be deleted from the receiving devices after they've aged out at What I've seen written is twenty one days mid that could be changed twenty eight or could be whatever but the point is you don't need to keep them forever okay. So now someone who has been participating tests positive for cove nineteen if they choose to that is presumably at their discretion. Maybe they don't have a choice in China. I don't know but here in the US we've probably still have a choice at their discretion to help the world and to help protect their friends and family they choose to notify. Everyone whom they may have been in contact with during the days prior to their diagnosis. When presumably they were contagious so they instruct their device to notify the world. Their device alone contains that single Derived from pure entropy master tracing key which based upon the UNIX EPOCH. Day Derives the daily tracing key so the device goes back some number of days and uploads each day's tracing key during which time they may have been contagious and in the process. We relabel these tracing keys. Diagnosis keys once they have been associated with a covert nineteen positive individual. They became they become diagnosis keys. By definition so think about this all of the rolling proximity identifiers which were emitted by that. User's device on any given day were derived solely from that daily tracing key and the time of day in those ten minute window. Does that means that anyone else? Who obtains those daily tracking? I'm sorry those daily tracing keys. Now Call Diagnosis keys. Anyone who obtains those diagnosis keys is also able to re derive the same set of Bluetooth beacons that the covert nineteen positive. User's device transmitted that day so on the receiving end every participating users device periodically downloads. All of the daily diagnosis keys presumably from people in their region. Because there's no reason to get them from countries you you're not located in And presumably only since you last downloaded them so it might be a daily thing. You might tell the server last time I checked in. Was this time and date. Give me any new diagnosis keys for you know for for where? I am now or within some region that I haven't previously seen for any new keys that the device has not already received the device the user's device simply recreates the original rolling proximity identifiers which were originally derived from the the now believed to be infected user under their tracing key. They use what we now. Call the diagnosis key to recreate the same set of rolling proximity identifiers and they check their list. They remember they're storing all the ones that they've seen so they look for a collision that is do any of the of the recent the sized rolling proximity indicators match any that were received during the last twenty one days if so the person knows they have had a potential exposure to somebody who has since set claimed that they are Cova nineteen positive. They have no idea who they have no idea when well actually they would know what day it was. An presumably there device might choose to tell them. This was the day that a collision was found so if there are any matches the recipient user knows that someone who's device. There's was close enough to presumably too well to exchange Bluetooth beacons and presumably with a high enough received strength. Indication has as posted a diagnosis key. that they received a diagnosis key. That generated a rolling Indicator that they received that day. So that's the system It is carefully thought out I've gone through the SPEC. I've looked at the CRYPTO. These guys didn't Miss Anything And so that's the system that Apparently without any modification IOS and android will both have In short order we need applications and we also need to do something about the things that can go wrong. So what can go? Wrong Moxie Marlin Spike who has earned and deserved. Everyone's respect as a crypto savvy researcher You know he developed signal And did a stunning job with signal. It apparently in some of what I presume are an an initial bunch of tweets He got some things wrong. And I presume it's just because he didn't have time to sit down and read through the SPEC carefully because for example he was immediately worried about Mac address tracking and you know the the SPEC explicitly Explains how that cannot happen there. There's there is no fixed Bluetooth Mac address. That can be associated with these tokens by design. The also talked about huge amounts of bandwidth being consumed. I assume that he was presuming. That that the tokens themselves are. What would be transacted rather than the diagnosis keys? One of the cleverest things about this is that we have H MAC based keying. That only allows these things to be generated in a forward going manner and the the diagnosis key knowing that day allows you to recent this is all of the individual rolling keys so anyway These guys going to jump from crypto standpoint. They have produced a very powerful system. One non malicious problem that could arise is that radio proximity does not perfectly match viral propagation proximity in other words the way I think of it as your device for example might be exchanging beacons with people in the apartment above below and to either side of yours but that depending upon how well this received strength indication is used. Assuming it is that doesn't mean because you can receive their radio signal that they would represent a source of viral contagion so the system could potentially false positive if you happen to have your phones on either side of a wall so the signal strengths were strong And somebody on the other side of the wall later came down with cove in nineteen range of L. E. IT's less than Regular Bluetooth. Bet E. I got a really good question. I don't know you're right. I don't slow in. That sounds like it must be. Yeah we OUGHTA. That's a really good point. I was just assuming it was the same ten meters thus thirty feet but it may be that that is enough shorter. That look like you're already going to be you know. Need to be within sneezing distance in order to reach the other person and of course the other glitches and this is. This is something I haven't seen I haven't read anything about Is We don't WANT PEOPLE SPOOFING THEIR COVA. Nineteen infections onto the surfer. So for example. You wouldn't want somebody going to a concert and spending the night in proximity to as many people as they possibly could and then misrepresenting the fact that they're now Kovic nineteen positive and causing a false positive alert to everyone so so we do cl- I mean you know if nothing else. The Zoom Fiasco has the you know. The Zoom Startup fiasco has shown that you know they. Social Engineering side also needs to have attention paid to it. These we've nailed the technology side So I don't know how we'll handle that. It needs to be done correctly but We really do have a beautiful technical solution. I think There's no notion of user identity. It's not encoded is not encrypted. It just isn't there. These things are coming out of h Mac. And it's just random gibberish. There's no sense of location that is related to it's not. You can't derive the randomly generated Mac addresses from this h Mac as one of Marley's marks Moxie marlins bikes Concerns was your Nen all of a sudden. You know a test positive. He's going to have You know he's GonNa Publish. All of his rotating Bluetooth Mac addresses well. So so there's there's there's two different things here I know derived ones. So there's the Mac address and that's separate from the the payload of the Bluetooth packet the rolling proximity identifier. Yeah that's the data contained by the Bluetooth packet but it has to that has to be able to link to back to the person who generated it at some point. If you test positive. Yes so you must be derived the MAC address from that. Not the MAC address you again you need to. With the MAC address is different from the bowling proximity identifier caroling proxy. The MAC address is the communications link. The rolling proximity identifier is the one hundred twenty eight bit tag carried by in the Malay randomly and well that's generated through this h Mac which would just clever because it allows the allows them to be recreated from the daily tracing key right which is then called the diagnosis one way. Trans- yeah it is a it has a one way function but again you put the same thing in. You're going to get the same thing out. Which is the elegance of this. Because it means you just your your diagnosis keys. The keys for the days that you were contagious and everybody who receives those can then regenerate the whole day's worth of of rolling proximity identifiers to see if they have any collision so they have any match. He says the moment you test positive. He misunderstood it. He says all of your bt L. E. MAC addresses over the previous pre. Become LINK COUPLE. Yes that is not nice not a case that that would certainly be an issue obviously because the NFL. It's also very clear that at apple and Google new this because they deliberately made the the the they took the ten minute period on the inside of when the Mac address rotates or or or or changes so there is just an absolutely own and they also made them change synchronous in the SPEC specifically says that I just think that Moxie you know maybe I had a bad hair day or you've seen him so not much of a stretch who knows but Yeah there is no Mac address link ability they really nailed it the the technology. It's beautiful right okay. So we need to solve the social engineering problem. We need not to allow people to post to an what will become an important tracing database if they don't if they aren't actually recently shown to be positive But you know that could be under the control of low of local health officials who who you know so so you and we. We don't yet know how they're going to be distributing or managing anybody testing. But the cool thing is you can't have tracing unless you have the technical foundation to their credit apple and Google instantly stepped up and created a as far as I can see a perfect technology base for then on which can be built that tracing that we probably need throughout the world moving forward Yeah it's clever they They say that apple and Google push out these Api's in the next couple of weeks or mid-may I guess so that's a month from And so they'll be available to APPs at that point with Operating system updates and then apps will come later from those two they'll be reference both from apple and Google. Oh I mean I could write this overnight. I mean it's it's really simple. It's very and that and that's what you want. You want a clean simple obvious. You know obviously provable. Correct system and you know. It's the bane start. I'm relieved that seems good. And there. We have a podcast very interesting and all of our listeners know how it works now and I have a feeling it may be in our lives. It's very very. Yeah Yeah I think it's very interesting Steve Gibson's GRC DOT COM. That's where the podcast lives as well Grc's the home before spin right. That's that thing. He's working on Spin right six point one you'll find The world's Best hard-right maintenance recovery utility at GRC DOT COM along with a lot of other freebies including shields up And of course the show. Sixteen kilobits audio Sixty four kilobits audio and very nicely done transcriptions all available at G. R. C. DOT COM. We have sixty four kilobytes audio and video as well at our website twit DOT TV slash S. N. It's also on On Youtube you can subscribe to the security now channel there and if you will subscribe to the podcast where you'll have every episode you don't have to think about it. Just pick a podcast appliance and subscribe. You can even listen on Amazon's echo that's not a subscription but you can listen or the Google home just by saying you know hey device play security now podcast in it will. Steve will be back here next Wednesday round one thirty Pacific Four Thirty Eastern Twenty thirty. Ut See for another thrilling gripping Sassy thirty now absolutely today was patch Tuesday. Not Enough Time. All that will figure out. Oh I yeah I got my win. Ten system is like panting for me to Shut it down so we can update so they are going to happen right now. Taught you then my friend back.

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#190  Jordan Ellenberg: Mathematics of High-Dimensional Shapes and Geometries

Artificial Intelligence (AI Podcast) with Lex Fridman

2:47:40 hr | 3 months ago

#190 Jordan Ellenberg: Mathematics of High-Dimensional Shapes and Geometries

"The following is a conversation with jordan elburg. A mathematician at university of wisconsin and an author who masterfully reveals the beauty and power of mathematics in his two thousand fourteen book. How not to be wrong and his new book just released recently called shape the hidden geometry of information biology strategy democracy and everything else quick mention of our sponsors secret sauce expressed. Vpn blinking and indeed. Check them out in the description to support this podcast as a side note. Let me say. The geometry is what made me fall in love with mathematics when i was young it. I showed me that something definitive could be stated about this world doing to of visual proofs. Somehow that convinced me that math is not just. Abstract numbers devoid of life but a part of life part of this world part of our search for meaning as usual. I'll do a few minutes as now. I tried to make these interesting. But i give you time stamps. If you skip please spell check out sponsors by cooking the links in description is the best way to support this podcast. I don't do as in the middle. I think for me at least they Get in the way. The conversation unfortunate to be able to be very selective with the sponsors would take on so hopefully if you buy their stuff you find value in it just as i have. This show is sponsored by wandering series called secret sauce hosted by jimmy fry and sam donner where the explore the stories and successes behind some of the most inspiring businesses creative innovators and intrepid entrepreneurs and at the top of the list is johnny. I've probably Humans ever the intricate the fascinating push and pull the complementary relationship between johnny. I've and see jobs created some of the most. I would say amazing products in the history of human civilization the gentleness of johnny and then the harshness and the the brutal drive of c. Jobs i think those two things combined beautifully. The artistry in the pragmatism created a fascinating data. Genius and secret sauce covers. Just this relationship listened to secrets. Often apple podcasts amazon music or you can listen one week early and add free by joining wandering plus in the wandry app. The tagline is wandering. Feel the story. The shows also sponsored by expressly pm. They protect your privacy and earn your my trust by doing a bunch of things like using a trusted server that makes it impossible for them to store your data i think. Companies that operate at least in part online have responsibility to be stewards of your data. I think the do things are really important. There is transparency basically showing how the data's use and control giving people control over their data trusting their intelligence trusting their ability to understand where and how they want the data to be used of course a lot of the challenges there is not just about transparency and control. it's also creating interfaces. They're like fun and easy to use and In terms of interfaces expressive. Peon a great job. I'm a huge fan of simplicity and expressive really simple interface. That does only would it needs to you Select the location. You have a big button. I've been using for years. And i love it anyway. Go to express. Ups dot com slash lex spot to get an extra three months. Free go to be dot com slash luck spot. This episode is also supported by blink against my favorite app for learning new things. Blinking takes the key ideas from thousands of nonfiction and condense them down into just fifteen minutes. The you can read or listen to. There's a lot of amazing books on there. Like sapiens and by yuval. Harari so read both of these books in their entirety. But i want to blink before. I read them and after before to see if i wanna read them and after to review some of the main ideas i think that's a great way to use. Blankets is basically. I to decide whether you want to read the book and second to review the book. Also it's a great way to get A sense of the key ideas in the book. If you just don't have the time to read that particular book will only have a limited time on this earth but there's a bunch of interesting books that people discuss she at least want to get a a sense of the key ideas in the book in order to participate in the conversation. Go to blink dot com slash legs to start your free seven day trial and get twenty five percents off a blink premium membership. That's blinking dot com slash legs spelled b. l. i. m. k. I s. t. bleakest dot com slash lex. This episode is brought to you by indeed a hiring website. I've used them. As part of many hiring efforts have done in the past for teams. i've led they have tools like indeed instant match. It gives you quality. Candidates was resumes indeed. Fit your job description immediately. I think all of the stages in the hiring process difficult the first one when you have a giant pool of people and you want to narrow down to a set of a strong potential candidates. That's difficult the next stage is in the initial interviewing to narrow down the field of candidates. All of them are pretty good. You're looking for fit and then maybe finally is to grill the ones that are left to figure out whether they're going to be great members of the team. They're going to stand up to the pressure. They have the right level of passion whether they aligned with your vision there that kind of fire and there is though make you excited to show up to work every single day. So all of those difficult i think indeed really helps with that initial stage of getting a good set of candidates and narrowing down the that have candidates but then one on one interviewing that's a whole nother ballgame. That's an art form and That's anew or i me if i'm hiring anyway right now get a free seventy five dollars sponsored job credit to your job post at indeed dot com slash legs get it at indeed dot com slash lex terms and conditions apply offer valid through june thirtieth indeed dot com slash. Lex this is alexi. Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with jordan allen berg if the brain is a cake it is. Let's just go with me on this oposite. So for noam chomsky language the universal grammar the framework from which language springs is like most of the cake the delicious chocolate center. And then the rest of cognition that we think of this built on top extra layers. Maybe the icing on the cake. Maybe just Maybe consciousness is just like a cherry on top of. Where do you put in this cake. Mathematical thinking is that as fundamentals language in the chomsky view is more fundamental own. Language is echoes of the same kind of abstract framework this. He's thinking about volunteers. The language that they're all like really tightly interconnected. That's a really interesting question. You're getting me to reflect on this question of whether the feeling of producing mathematical output if you want is like the process of uttering language producing linguistic output. I think feels something like that. And it's certainly the case. Let me put it this way. It's hard to imagine doing mathematics in a completely non linguistic way. It's hard to imagine doing mathematics without talking about mathematics and sort of thinking in propositions. But maybe it's just. Because that's the way i do. Mathematics semi. I can't imagine any other way right. It's a well what about visualizing shapes visualizing concepts to which language is not obviously attachable That's a really interesting question. And you know one thing reminds me of is one thing i talk about In the book is dissection proofs these very beautiful proofs of geometric propositions There's a very famous by bosca of the factory and theorem proofs which are purely visual proofs where you show that Two quantities are the same by taking the same pieces and putting them together one way and making one shape and putting them together another way and making a different shape and then observing. Those must have the same area because they were built out of the same pieces. You know. there's there's a famous story and it's a little bit dispute about how accurate this is but in bosco manuscript. He's sort of gives us proof just gives the diagram and then the entire verbal content of the proof is he just writes under it. Behold there's some dispute about exactly how accurate that is but then there's an interesting question if you're proof is a diagram if you're approved a picture or even if you're is like a movie of the same pieces coming together in two different formations to make two different things that language and not drive a good answer. What do you think i think it is. I think the process of manipulating the visual elements is the same as the process of manipulating the elements of language. I think probably the manipulating the aggregation stitching stuff together is the important part is not the actual. Specific elements is more like to me languages. The process and math is a process. It's not a it's not just specific symbols. it's It's inaction it's it's ultimately created through action through change and So you're constantly evolving ideas. Of course we kind of attach. There's a certain destination you arrived to that you attached to you. Call that a proof. But that's not that doesn't need to end their as at the end of the chapter and then it goes on and on and on and that kind of way but i gotta ask you about geometry and it's a prominent topic in your new book shape so for me jaama trees thing just because you're saying made me in love with mathematics and always young to being able to prove something. Visually just did something to my brain. That planted this hopeful seed that you can understand the world like perfectly maybe is an oc d think but from a mathematics perspective like humans are messy the world is messy biology's messy parents are yelling making do stuff but you can cut through all that bs and truly understand the world through mathematics and nothing like geometry death for me for you. You did not immediately fall in love with geometry so How do you. How do you think about geometry. Why's it especially field mathematics and How did you fall in love with it you have. Wow you've given me a lot to say and certainly be experienced that you described is so typical but there's two versions of it You know one thing. I say in the book is geometry is the cilantro of math. People are not neutral about. There's people who are who you are like the rest of it. I could take or leave but then this one moment it made sense. This classmates sends. Why wasn't it all like that. There's other people i can tell you. 'cause they come and talk to me all the time who are like i understood all this stuff where you're trying to figure out what x was. There's some mystery you're trying to solve it exit number. I figured it out but then there was this geometry like what was that what happened that year. Like i didn't get it. I was lost the whole year. And i didn't understand like why we even spent the time doing that. So what everybody agrees on is that it's somehow different right. There's something special about it. We're gonna walk around in circles a little bit but we'll get there. You asked me how. I fell in love with math. I have a story about this. When i was a small child. I don't know maybe like six or seven. I don't know i'm from the seventy s. I think you're from a different decade than that you know in the seventies we had them. You had a cool wooden box around your stereo. That was the look. Everything was dark wood and the box out of holes in it. Down and the holes were in this tangle array of six eight array of holes. And i was just kind of like you know zoning out in living room as kids do looking at this six by eight tanggula array of holes and if you like just by kind of like focusing in and out just kind of looking at this box looking at this rectangle i was like well. There's six rows of eight each for there's also eight columns of six holes each so eight sixes and six eight. It's just like the section. Bruce you were just talking about but it's the same holes. Same forty eight holes. That's how many there are no matter whether you count them as rose are count them as columns and this was like unbelievable to me. The cost on your podcast. I don't know if that's okay. It was fucking unbelievable last time yet in this story merits it so two different perspectives on the same physical reality exactly and it's just as you say You know i knew the six times eight was the same as eight times six right. I knew my times tables. Like i knew that that was a fact but did i really know it until the moment. That's the question right. I knew that i knew that. The timetable was symmetric. But i didn't know why that was the case until that moment and in that moment i could see like oh. I didn't have to have somebody. Tell me that that's information that you can just directly access. That's a really amazing moment and as math teachers. That's something that we're really trying to bring to. Our students and i was one of those who did not love the kind of euclidean geometry ninth grade class of like prove that i saw sleaze triangle has the angles at the base. This kind of thing. It didn't vibe with me. The way that algebra and numbers did but if you go back to that moment from my adult perspective looking back at what happened with our rectangle i think that is a very geometric moment in fact that moment exactly encapsulates the the intertwining of algebra and geometry algebraic fact that well in the instance eight times six is equal to six times eight but in general that whatever to numbers you have you multiply them one way and it's the same as if you multiply them in the other order it attach it to this geometric fact about a rectangle which in some sense makes it true. So you know who knows. Maybe i was always faded to be an algebraic geometry. which is what. I am as a as a researcher. So that's the kind of transformation and you talk about symmetry in your book. What the heck is symmetry. Wha what the heck is these kinds of transformation on objects that Once you transfer on they seem to be similar What do you make of it. What's its use in mathematics or may be broadly in understanding our world. Well it's an absolutely fundamental concept and it starts with the words symmetry in the way that we usually use it when we're just like talk in english not talking mathematics right sort of is when we say something is the metrical we usually means. It has what's called an axis of symmetry may like the left. Half of it looks the same as the right half that would be like a left right axis imagery or maybe the top half looks like the bottom half or both right. maybe there's sort of a fourfold symmetry where top looks like. The bottom of the left looks like the right or more and that can take you in a lot of different directions the abstract study of what the possible combinations of symmetry there are subject would just call group theory was actually One of my first loves mathematics thought about a lot when i was in college but the notion of symmetry is actually much more general than the things that we would call symmetry of. We were looking at like a classical building or a painting or or something like that you know. Nowadays in in math we could use a symmetry to to refer to any kind of transformation of an image or a space or an object You know so. When i talk about in in the book is Take a figure and stretch it vertically. Make it twice as make at twice as big vertically and make it half as wide That i would call a symmetry symmetry in the classical sense but it's a well defined transformation that has an input output. I give you some shape and it gets kind of i. Call this in the book of scrunch. I just had to make up some sort of funny sounding name doesn't really have a name and just as you can sort of study. Which kinds of objects are symmetrical under the operations of switching left and right where switching top and bottom or rotating forty degrees. Or what have you you could study. What kinds of things are preserved by this kind of scrunched symmetry and this kind of more general idea. What imagery can be Let me put it this way. A fundamental mathematical idea in some sense. I might even say the idea that dominates contemporary mathematics or by contemporary by the way i mean last like one hundred and fifty years. We're on a very long time scale in math. I don't mean like yesterday. I mean like a century or so up until is this idea that the fundamental question of when do we consider two things to be the same. That might seem a complete triviality. It's not instance. If i have a triangle and i have a triangle of the exact same dimensions. But it's over here. Are those the same or different what you might say. There's two different things over here. This is over there on the other hand. If you prove a theorem about this one it's probably still true about this one. If it has like all the same side lanes angles looks exactly the same. The term of art. If you want it you would say their congressman but one way of saying it is. There's a symmetry called translation was just means. Move everything interested left. And we want all of our theories to be translation variant. Whether means is that if you prove at the about a thing over here and then you move it. Three inches to the left. It'd be kinda weird if all of your theorems like didn't still work so this question of like what are the symmetry and which things you wanna study. Our in variant and of those countries is absolutely fundamental. This is getting a little abstract right and it's not at all abstract. I think this this is completely central to everything. I think about in terms of artificial intelligence. I don't know if you know about the amnesty set. What's handwritten digits off and You know i don't smoke much. We'd or any really but it certainly feels like it. When i look at this and think about the stuff which is like. What's the difference between one into two and why are all twos similar to each other. What kind of transformations are within the category. Of what makes thing the same. And what kind of transformations are those that make different and symmetry score to that in fact our whatever the hell our brain is doing. It's really good at constructing these arbitrary in sometimes novel which is really important like the iq test or they feel novel a ideas of symmetry of what like playing with objects were able to see things. They're the same and not and Construct almost like little geometric theories a will make things same not and how to make a programs do that in the i is a total open question and so i kinda stared and wonder a how what kind of symmetry are enough to solve the m nist handwritten digit recognition problem and. Write that down. And exactly what's so fascinating about the work in that direction. From the point of view of a of a mathematician like me in a geometry. Is that the kind of groups. And of symmetry is the types of symmetry is that we know of Are not sufficient right so in other words like we're just gonna keep on going into the weeds on this The deeper the butter kind of symmetry understand very well as rotation. Yeah right so here's what would be easy. If if if if we recognize the digit as a one if it was like literally a rotation by some number of degrees of some fixed one in some typeface like paladino or something that would be very easy to understand right very easy to like. Write a program that could detect whether something was a rotation of a fixed digit one. Whatever we're doing when you recognize the digit one indistinguishable from the digit to. It's not that it's not just incorporating one of the types of symmetry is that we understand. Now i would say that. I would be shocked if there was some kind of classical symmetry type formulation that captured. What we're doing when we tell the difference between two and three to be honest. I think i think what we're doing is actually more complicated than that. I feel like it must be There so simple. These numbers i mean. They're really geometric objects like we can draw out one two three. It does seem like it's it should be formalised. But that's why it's so strange. That gets formalized wednesday then stops being a two and starts being three where you can imagine something continuously deforming from being two to three. Yeah but that's there is a moment i have Myself written programs that literally morph twos now threes. And so on. And you watch in. There's moments that you notice depending on the trajectory of that transformation that morphing that it is a three and a two. There's a hard line. Wait so if you ask people if you showed them this morph if you ask a bunch of people do. They all agree about where the transition time question. I was surprised. I think so. Oh my god okay. We have an empirical. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. That if i just showed that moment that i agreed on. That's not fair. No but say. I said so. I wanna move with the agreement fascinating Actually questioned that. I want to backtrack from because just dogmatically said Because i could be very but the morphing really helps that like the change. I mean partially because our perception systems see. This is all tied in there somehow. The change from one to the other like seeing the video of it allows you to pinpoint the place where to because the three much better. If i just showed you one picture. I think You you might. You might really really struggle. You may call a seven. Like i think there's something Also that we don't often think about which is it's not just about the static image it's the transformation of the image or not a static. Shape is the transformation of the shape. The something in the movement that's seems to be not just about our perception system but fundamental talk. Ignition like how we think about stuff. Yeah and it's a and and you know the part geometry to and in fact a again another inside of modern geometry. Is this idea that maybe we would naively. Think we're gonna study. I don't know it's like porn carre. We're going to study the three body problem. We're going to study sort of like three objects in space moving around subject only the force of each other's gravity which sounds very simple right. And if you don't know about this problem you're probably like okay. You put it in your computer and see what they do. Well guess what. That's like a problem. That point carre when a huge prize for like making the first real progress on the eighteen eighties. And we still don't know that much about it on fifty years later. I mean it's a mystery. You'd just opened the door and we're going to walk right in before we return to symmetry what's the who's bunker and what's What's this conjecture. He came up with. Why such a hard problem okay. So poiret eye. He ends up being a major figure in the book. And i don't. I didn't even really intend for him to be a bigger. But he's so he's He's first and foremost geometry rate. So he's a map addition kind of comes up in late. Nineteen th century. france At a time when french math is really starting to flower actually learned a lot. You know in math. We're not really trained on our own history. We get a phd in math. What about math. So i learned a lot. There's this whole kind of moment where. France has just been beaten in the franco prussian war. And they're like. Oh my god what did we do wrong and they were like. We gotta get strong in math like the germans. We have to be like more like the german so this never happens to us again with. It's very it's like the sputnik moment like what happens in america in the fifties and sixties with the soviet union. This is happening to france. And they're trying to kind of like instantly like modernize that this fascinating. The humans in mathematics are intricately connected to the history of humans. The cold war is I think fundamental to the way people saw science and math in the soviet union. I don't know if that was true in the united states but certainly wasn't soviet union definitely wasn't i would love to hear more about how it wasn't the soviet union i mean there is And we'll talk about the the olympic. I just remember that there was this feeling like the world hung in the balance and you could save. The world with the tools of science and mathematics was like the superpower that fuel science and so like people were seen as You know people. In america often idolize athletes but ultimately the best athletes in the world. They just throw a ball into a basket. So there's not what people really enjoy about. Sports sports is like excellence at the highest level. But when you take that with mathematics and science people also enjoyed excellence in science mathematics and soviet union. But there's an extra sense that that excellence would lead to a better world so that created All the usual things you think about. What the olympics. Which is like extreme competitiveness right but it also created this sense that in the modern era america. Some me like elam mosque. What are you think of like. Jeff bezos those folks. They inspire the possibility that one person or group of smart people can change the world like not. Just be good at what they do but actually change the world. Mathematics was at the core of that I i don't know there's a romance ism around it to like when you read books about people certain things like baseball for example. There's like these beautiful poetic Writing about the game of baseball. The same was the feeling with mathematics and science in the soviet union and it was it was in the air. Everybody was forced to take higher level mathematics courses like you took a lot of math. You took a lot of and a lot of like really rigorous literature like they the the level of education in russia. This could be true and china. I'm not sure In a lot of countries is In whatever that's called k. To twelve in america but like young people education the level they were challenged to to learn at is incredible. It's like america falls far behind. I would say. America then quickly catches up and then exceeds everybody else. At the it started approaching the end of high school to college like university system united states arguably is the best in the world but like what what we challenge. Everybody's not just like the good. The a students but everybody to learn in in the soviet union was fascinating. I think i'm going to pick up on something you said. I think you would love a book called dawn by amir alexander. Which i think some of the things you're responding to what i wrote. I think i i got turned onto by mir's work. He's a historian of math and he writes about the story of evariste gallois which is a story. That's well known to all mathematicians this kind of like very very romantic figure who he really sort of like begins the development of this this theory of groups that i mentioned earlier. This general theory of cemeteries And then dies in a duel in his early twenties. Like all this stuff mostly unpublished. It's a very very romantic story that we all learn And much of it is true but alexander really lays out just how much the way people thought about math in those times in their early nathan century was wound up with as you say romanticism. That's when the romantic movement takes place and he really outlines how people were were predisposed to think about mathematics in that way because they thought about poetry that way and they thought about music that way it was the mood of the era to think about. We're reaching for the transcendent sort of reaching sort of direct contact with the divine. And so part of the reason that we think of gala that way with because gala himself was a creature of that era and he romanticized himself. I mean now now you know. He looked road lots of letters unlike he was kind of like. I mean monitors. He was extremely im-. Oh we wrote all these letters about his florid feelings and like the fire within him about the mathematics and you know so he just as you say that the math history touches human history. There never separate because math is made of people. Yeah it's it's it's people who do it and we're human beings doing it and we do it within whatever we do. It affected by The mores of of this society around us so the french. The germans punk Yes okay so back to bunker right so he's you know it's funny. This book is filled with kind of mathematical characters. Who often are kind of peevish. Or get into feuds or sort of have like weird enthusiasms because those people are fun to write about. And they sort of say very salty things punk array is actually none of this as far as i can tell he was an extremely normal dude. It didn't get into fights with people and everybody liked him and he was like fifty personally modest than he had very regular habits. You know what i mean. He he did math for like four hours in the morning and four hours in the evening and that was it like he had his schedule. I actually it was like. I still am feeling like somebody's gonna tell me now. The book is out like about this incredibly sordid episode of as far as i could tell a normal guy but he just kind of in many ways creates the geometric world in which we live and and you know his his first really big success. Is this prize paper. He writes for this prize. Offered by the king of sweden for the study of the three body problem the study of what we can say about three astronomical objects moving in what you might think it'd be this very simple way going on gravity relating the three body problem. Why is it a problem so the problem is to understand when this motion is stable. And when it's not so stable meaning they would sort of like end up some kind of periodic orbit lower or would mean sorry stable with me. They never sort of fly off far apart from each other and unstable eventually fly apart so understanding. Two bodies is much easier Meals newton new two bodies they sort of orbit each other and some kind of Either in an ellipse which is the stable case. That's what the planet do that we know or one travels on hyperbole around the other. That's the unstable case. It's sort of like zooms in from far away. Sort of like whips around the have your thing and like zooms out Those are basically the two options. So it's a very simple and easy to classify story with three bodies just that small switch from two to three. It's a complete zoo. It's the for what we say. Now is the first example of what's called chaotic dynamics where the stable solutions and the unstable solutions. They're kind of like wound in among each other and a very very very tiny change in the initial conditions can make the long term behavior system completely different so ponca was the first to recognize that that phenomenon even even existed what about the Conjecture that carries his name right so he also was one of the pioneers of taking geometry. Which until that point had been largely the study of two and three dimensional objects. Because that's what we see. Lots of the odds degree interact with he developed subject. We now called topology. He called it. Analysis to see was a very well-spoken guy with a lot of slogans. That name did not see that name did not catch on so now. It's it's called apology now. So what was it called before analysis. Roughly means the analysis of location. Or something like that. Like it's a latin phrase partly because he understood that even to understand stuff that's going on in our physical world you have to study higher dimensional spaces. How how does this work. And this is kind of like where my brain went to it because you were talking about. Not just where things are what. Their path is how they're moving when we were talking about the path from two to three. He understood that. If you wanna study three the three bodies moving in space each each body. It has a location where it is. What has an x. Coordinator y coordinate z coordinate right. I can specify point in space by giving you the numbers but it also and each moment has velocity so it turns out that really understand. What's going on. You can't think of it as a point or you could but it's better not to think of it as a point in three dimensional space. That's moving it's better to think of it as a point. Six dimensional space for the coordinates are where is it. And what's its velocity right now. That's a higher dimensional space called phase space. And if you haven't thought about this before. I admit that it's a little bit mind bending but what he needed then was a geometry. That was flexible enough just to talk about two dimensional spaces three dimensional spaces but any dimensional space vessel famous first line of this paper introduces analysis is is no one doubts. Nowadays that the geometry of n dimensional space is an actually existing thing right. I think that maybe that had been controversial. And he's saying like look. Let's face it just because it's not physical doesn't mean it's not there. It doesn't mean we shouldn't studying this thing. He wasn't jumping to the physical. The physical interpretation like it can be real. Even if it's not perceivable to human cognition. i think. I think that's right. I think don't get me wrong. Carre never strays far from physics. He's always motivated by physics but the physics drove him to need to think about spaces of higher dimension and so he needed a formalism. That was rich enough to enable him to do that. And once you do that that formalism is also going to include things that are not physical and then you have two choices you can be like. Oh well that's stuff strache or and this is more than half traditions frame of mind. If you have a formalistic remark that like seems really good and sort of seems to be very elegant and work well and it includes all the physical stuff maybe we should think about all of it like maybe we should think about the you know. Maybe there's some gold be mind there and indeed like you know guess what like before long is relativity and their space time and like all of a sudden. It's like oh yeah. Maybe it's a good idea. We already had this. Geometric apparatus like setup for like how to think about four dimensional space is like turns out there real after all you know. This is a story much told ready mathematics not in this context but in many. I'd love to dig in deeper on that. Actually because have some Intuitions to work out. Okay my brain mathematical physicists. And we can work together. Good will Will together walk along the path of curiosity but Conjecture what is it. A conjecture is about curved three-dimensional spaces. So i was on my way there. I promise The idea is that we perceive ourselves as living in we don't say a three dimensional space. We the three dimensional space. You know you can go up and down. You can go left and right you can go forward and back this three dimensions in which we can move in. Ponca is theory. There are many possible three dimensional spaces in the same way that going down one dimension to sort of capture intuition a little bit more we know there are lots of different two dimensional surfaces right. There's a balloon and not looks one way and don't look another way and a moebius strip looks at third way those are all like two dimensional surfaces that we can really get a global view of because we live in three dimensional space so we can see to match surface sitting in our three dimensional space. Well see a three dimensional space whole. We'd have to kind of have four. Dimensional is right which we don't so we have. These are mathematical. Is we have to envision the poincare a conjecture says it's a very simple way to determine whether a three dimensional space is the standard one the one that we're used to and essentially it's that it's what's called fundamental. Group has nothing interesting in that. I can actually stay without saying with the middle. Group is i can tell you. What criterion is. This'll be good look can even use visual aids for the people watching the sun youtube. You'll to see this for the people on the podcast off to visualize it so lex has been nice enough to like give me a surface was an interesting apology. Some mug right here in front of me. A mug yes i'm it's genus one surface but we could also say it's a mug same thing so if i were to draw a little circle on this mug which way should i dropped so it's visible here. If i draw a little smug imagine to be a loop of string. I could pull that loop of string closed on the surface of the mug right. That's definitely something i could do. I could string shrink until two point on the other hand. If i draw the goes around the handle i can kind of showed up here. And i can just sit down there and i consider slide up and down the handle but i can't pull it closed. I it's trapped not without breaking the surface of the mug right now with going inside so the condition of being what's called simply connected. This is a bunker is inventions says that any loop of string can be pulled shot. So it's a feature that the mug simply does not have this is a non simply connected mug and a simply connected mug would be a cup right. You would burn your hand when you drink coffee out of it. So you're saying the universe is not a mug. Well i can't speak to the universe. But what i can say. Is that regular old. Space is not a mug regulars base if you like sort of actually physically have a loop of string you can always close you polish. But what if your piece of string was the size of the universe like what if your pizza string was like billions of light years long like like how do you actually know. I mean that's still an open question shape the universe exactly what whether it's I think there's a lot. There is ideas of being a tourist. I mean there's there's some trippy ideas and they're not like weird out there controversial. There's a legitimate at the center of cosmetology debate. I mean. I think i think there's like some kind of dudek a he'd hero symmetry or i mean i remember reading something crazy about. Somebody's saying that. They saw the signature of that him of cosmic noise. Or what have you. I mean to make the flat authors. Happy i do believe that. The current main belief is. It's it's flat. It's flattish or something like that. The shape of the universe is flat. Ish i don't know what the heck that means. I think that has like a very how you even supposed to think about the shape of a thing. That doesn't have any thing outside of it. I mean that's exactly what the policy does apologies with called intrinsic theory. That's what's great about it. This question about the mug. You could answer it without ever leaving the mug rape because it's a question about a loop drawn on the surface of the mug and what happens if it never leaves that surface so it's like always there cpa this the difference between then topology and say if you're like Trying to visualize a mug the can't visualize among well living inside the mug. Well that's true. The visualizations no. You're right but at the tools of maddox are there. I don't want to fight. But i think the tools them medicare exactly there to enable you to think about what you cannot visualizing this way. Let's always to make things easier go down or dimension. Let's think about. We live on a circle. Okay you can tell whether you live on a circle or a line segment because if you live in a circle if you walk away in one direction you find yourself back where you started and if you live in a line segment you walk for a long enough one direction and you come to the end of the world or if you live on a line like a whole line and infinite line then you walk in one direction for a long time and well then there's not a sort of terminating algorithm to figure out whether you a line or a circle but at least you sort of at least you don't discover that you live in a circle so all of those are intrinsic things right all those are things that you can figure out about your world without leaving your world on the other hand ready now we're going to go from intrinsic to extrinsic. Why did i not know you were gonna talk about this but why not. Why not if you can't tell whether you live in a circle or a not like imagine like a non floating in three dimensional space. The person who lives on that not to them. It's a circle. They walk a long way. They come back to where they started. Now we are three dimensional is can be like oh this is just a plain circle and this one's not it up but that's that's a that has to do with how they sit in three dimensional space it doesn't have to do with intrinsic features people's world we can ask you one eight to another doesn't make you. How does it make you feel that. You don't know if you live in a circle or on a not in not in inside the string the forms of the not. I'm going to say going to be honest with you. I don't know if like. I fear you won't like this answer but does not bother me at all it does. I don't lose one minute of sleep over it so like does it bother you that if we look at like a moebius strip that you don't have an obvious way of knowing whether you are inside of cylin if you live on a surface of a cylinder or you live on the surface of a moebius strip no. I think you can tell if you live if which one because it what you do. Is you like tell your friend. Hey stay right here. i'm just going to go for a walk. And then you like walk for a long time in one direction and then you come back and you see your friend again. And if your friend is reversed you live on a moebius strip. Well no because you won't see your friend right okay. Fair point fair point on that wait you. You have to believe the stories about no. I don't even know i would. would you even know. would you really know your know. Your point is right. Let me try to think of a better. Let's see if i can do. This may not be correct to talk about cognitive beings living on a moebius strip. Because there's a lot of things taken for granted they're and we're constantly matching actual like three dimensional creatures Feels like to To live in a moebius strip is tricky to do turn allies. I think that on what's called the real protective plane which is kind of messed up. Version of the maybe a strip but with very similar features this feature kind of like only having one side. That has the feature that there's a loop of string which can't be pulled close but if you loop it around twice along the same path that you can pull closed. That's extremely weird. Yeah but that would be a way you could know without leaving your world something very funny going on you know. It's extremely weird. Maybe you can comment on. Hopefully it's not too much of a tangent is. I remember thinking about this. This might be right as my buron. But if you're if we now talk about us fear and you're living inside a sphere that you're going to see everywhere around you the back of your own head that i was 'cause like this is very intuitive to me to think about. Maybe it's wrong but thinking of like earth you know your three d thing on sitting honest fear but if you're living inside this year like you're going to see if you look straight you're always going to see yourself all the way around so everywhere you look. This is the back of your head. I i think somehow this depends on something of like how the physics of light works in this scenario which is hard to bend my district. The seized a lot of like saying. You see something's doing a lot of work people have thought about this. I mean this this metaphor of like what. If we're like little creatures in some sort of smaller world like how could we apprehend what's outside that medicine war just comes back and back and actually i didn't even realize like how frequent is. It comes up in the book a lot. I know it from a book called flatland. I don't know if you've ever read this when you were a kid and adult you know this this sort of sort of comic novel from the nineteen th century about an entire two dimensional world It's narrated by a square. That's the main character and the kind of strangeness that befalls him when when he's in his house and suddenly there's like a little circle there and there with him and then the but then the circle starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger like what the hell is going on. it's like a horror movie for dimensional people. And of course what's happening is that a sphere is entering his world and as the sphere kind of like farther and farther into the plane. It's cross section. The part of that he can see to him. It looks like there's like this kind of bizarre being like getting larger and larger and larger. Until it's exactly sort of halfway through. And then they had this kind of philosophical argument with the fear from the third dimension the squares like what are you talking about. There's no such thing. And they had this kind of like sterile argument where the square is not able to kind of like follow the mathematical reasoning of this fear until the spirit is kind of grabs him jerks him out of the plane and pulls him up. And it's like now now. Do you see like now. Do you see your whole world. But you didn't understand before. Did you think that kind of processes possible for us. Humans so we live in a three dimensional world maybe with the time component for dimensional and then math allows us to to go high into high dimensions comfortably and explore the world from those perspectives. Like is it possible that the universe is many more dimensions than the ones we experience as human beings. So if you look at The you know especially in physics theories of everything of physics theories that tried to unify general relativity and quantum field theory. They seem to go to high dimensions to work stuff. Out through tools of mathematics is possible so the two options are one is just a nice way to analyze a universe but the reality is is we proceeded is three dimensional or are we just seeing a we. Those flatland creatures. They're just seeing a tiny slice of reality and the actual reality is many many many more dimensions than the three matches we perceive. oh. I certainly invest possible. Now how would you figure out whether it was true or not is another question. I suppose what you would do as anything else that you can't directly perceive is you would try to understand what effect the presence of those extra dimensions out. There would have on the things we can proceed. Like what else can you do right. And some sense if the answer is they would have no effect then maybe it becomes like a little bit of a sterile question. Because what question are you even asking right. You can kind of posit however many entities that is it. Is it possible to intuit how to mess with the other dimensions while living in a three dimensional world. I mean that seems like a very challenging thing to do we were the the reason flatland could be written is because it's coming from a three-dimensional writer. Yes but but what happens in the book. I didn't even tell you the plot. What happens is the square so excited and so filled with intellectual joy by the way maybe to give the story from context you ask. Is it possible for us. Humans to have experience of being transcended transcendental jerked out of our world. So truly know. Bob well at abbott. Who wrote the book certainly thought so because it was a minister so the whole christians subtext of this book. I am completely not grasped reading this as a kid that means a very different thing right if a theologian is saying like oh what if a higher being good like pull you out of this earthly world you live in so that you can sort of see the truth and like really see it from above as it were so. That's one of the things that's going on for him. And it's a testament to his skill as a writer that his story just works. Whether that's the framework you're coming to it Or not But what happens in this book and this part now looking at it. Through a kristen lens it becomes a bit. Subversive is the square is so excited about what he's learned from the sphere and the sphere explains them like what a q. Would be oh. It's like three three-dimensional squares very excited in the squares like okay. I get it now so like now. You explain to me. How just by reason i can figure out what a q. would be like a three-dimensional version of me. Like let's figure out. What a four dimensional version of me would be like and this feels like what the hell are you talking about fourth dimension. That's ridiculous like the way three dimensions like that's how many there are. I can see like this sort of comic moment with a sphere. It's completely unable to conceptualize that. There could actually be yet another dimension so yeah that takes the religious allegory. A very weird place that. I don't really understand what we but that's a nice way to talk about religion and myth in general as perhaps a trying to struggle a us me human civilization trying to struggle with ideas that are beyond our cognitive capabilities. But it's back not beyond are capable. It may be beyond our cognitive capabilities to visualize aforementioned cube tesseract someone call it or dimensional cube or a six dimensional cube but it is not beyond our cognitive capabilities to figure out how many corners a six dimensional cube would have. That's what's so cool about us whether we can visualize it or not. We can still talk about it. We can still reason about it. We can still figure things out about it. That's amazing now if we go back to this first of all to the mug but to the example you give in the book of the straw How many holes does a straw have and you'll listener may Try to answer today in your own head. I'm going to drink while they're things about slow sip is it Zero one or two or more than that maybe maybe get very creative but It's kind of interesting to each dissecting. Each answers he do in the book is quite brilliant. People should definitely check it out but if you could try to answer it now like think about all the options and why they may or may not be right. Yeah and it's one. It's one of these questions where people on first hearing it think it's a triviality and they're like well. The answer is obvious. And then what have you ever asked a group of people. This something wonderfully comic happens. Which is that. everyone's like well. It's completely obvious. And then each person realizes that half the person to other people in the room have different obvious answer for the way they have and then people get really heated. People are like. I can't believe that you think it has holes like i can't believe that you think it has one and then know you really like people really learn something about each other and people get heated. I mean we go through the possible options. Here is a zero one. Two three ten short. So i think most people. This zero haulers are rare. They would say like well. Look you can make a straw by tenure plastic and closing it up rectangle piece of plastic doesn't have hole in it. I didn't poke a hole. And when i so how can i have a whole. They'd be like it's just one thing. Okay most people don't see it that way. That's like a. Is there any truth to that. Kind of conception yeah. I think that would be somebody who's account. I mean what i would say is you could say the same thing About a bagel you could say could make a bagel by taking a long cylinder of dough which doesn't have a whole and then schmoozing the ends together now. It's a bagel. so if you're really committed you can be like okay. Bagel doesn't have a whole either. But like who are you if you say yes. That's almost like an engineering definition of okay fair enough. So what's what about the other options. So you know one hole people would say oh. These groups of people like were planted our foot. Yes hall this books written about each belief would say look. There's like a whole it goes all the way through the straw right. This is one reason of space. That's the whole and there's one and two old people would say like well look there's a hole in the top in the hole at the bottom I think a common thing you see when people Argued this. Take something like this. A bottle of water. I'm holding i'll open it and they say well. How many holes are there in this and you say well there's one there's one hole at the top. Okay what i like poco here so that all the water spills out. Well now. it's a straw. So if you're a one haller is eighty you like well. How many holes are in. Now there was. There was one whole on it before. I poked a hole in it. And then you think there's still one whole even though there was just one one. I made one more clearly. Not as two holes yeah. I'm and yet if you're a two that one we'll say like okay. Where does one whole begin in the other whole end. Yeah like what's it like and in the in the book. I sort of you know in math. There's two things we do in face to the problem. That's confusing us. We can make the problem simpler that we were doing a minute ago when we were talking about high dimensional space and i was like. Let's talk about like circles and lines segments. let's go down dimension to make it easier. The other big move. We have is to make the problem harder and try to sort of really like face up to one of the complications. So you know. What i'd do in the book is they. Let stop talking about straws from it and talk about pants. How many holes are there in a pair of pants. So i think most people who say there's two holes in a straw would say there are three holes in a pair of pants. I guess i. I mean i guess we're filming only from here. I could take not going to do it. I'm just have to imagine the path. Sorry yeah if you want to know gay That's going to be in a direct patriot only ego so many people would say there's three holes in the pair of pants but you know for instance my daughter when i asked my only talking to kids about this is supervise. I highly recommended. What did she say decide. Well yeah. I feel a pair of pants like just has two holes because yesterday the waste. But that's just the two leg whole stuck together well okay to like. Oh yeah i mean. She's a one caller for the straw. That she's the one for this draw to and and that really does capture something. It captures this fact which is central to the theory of what's called which is a central part of modern technology that holes whatever. We may mean by them. They're somehow things which haven't arithmetic to them. They're things which can be added like the waste waste equals leg. Plus leg is kind even equation. But it's not an equation about numbers. It's an equation about some kind of geometric some kind of top logical thing which is very strange and so you know what i come down You know like a rabbi liked to kind of like come up with these answers somehow lake the original question say like you're both right my children okay so for this truth for the for the straw i think what a modern mathematician would say is like the first version would be to say like well. There are two holes but they're really both the same hole Well that's not quite right a better way to say it is. There's two holes but one is the negative of the other. now what can that mean One way of thinking about what it means. Is that if you sip. Something like milkshakes through the straw no matter. What the amount of milkshake. That's flowing in one end. That same amount is flowing out the other end so they're not independent from each other. There's some relationship between them in the same way that if you somehow could like suck a milkshake through a pair of pants The amount of milkshake. Just go with me on this. Not experimenting mom. Right there without milkshake. That's coming in the left leg of the pants. Plus the amount of milk coming in the right leg of the pants is the same. That's coming out the waste of the pants. So just say no fastest for seventy two hours yesterday The last three days. So i just broke the fast of a little bit of fool yesterday. So this is like this. Sounds food analogies or metaphors for this podcast work wonderfully 'cause i can intensely picture. It is that you're a weekly routine or just in preparation for talking about geometry for three hours jack. This is hardship to the nose for the first time. I just wanted to try the experience and just to To pause to do things that are out of the ordinary to pause and reflect. How grateful i am to be just alive and able to do all the cool shit that do so. Did you drink water yet. Yes yes yes yes. Yes for water and salt so like electrolytes and all those kinds of things but anyway so the inflow on the top of the pants equals to the outflow bottom of the pants. Exactly so this idea. That i mean i think you know ponca really these i this idea this sort of modern idea. I mean building on stuff other did. Betty is an important one of this kind of modern notion of relations being holes but the idea that holds really hadn't arithmetic. The really modern view was really. I mean nurtures idea so she kind of comes in and sort of truly puts the subject On its modern footing that we have that we have. Now it's always a challenge in the book. I'm not gonna say. I give like a course so that you read this chapter and then you're like oh it's just like i took a semester of algebraic. -nology it's not like this and it's always. It's always a challenge writing about math because there are some things that you can really do on the page and the math is there and this other things which it's too much in a book like this league. Do them all the page. You can only say something about them. If that makes sense so you know in the book. I tried to do some of both i try to. I try to topics that are. You can't really compress and really truly say exactly what they are in this amount of space. I try to say something interesting about them. Something meaningful about them so that readers can get the flavor And then another places. I really try to get up close and personal and really do the math and have it take place on the page to to some degree. Be able to give inklings of the beauty of the subject. Yeah i mean there's you know there's a lot of books that are like i don't know how to express well. I'm still laboring to do it. But there's a lot of books that are about stuff. But i want my books to not only be about stuff but to actually have some stuff there on the page in the book for people dragged with directly and non just sort of hear me talk about distant features about this this def- distant features of it right so not be talking just about ideas but the actually be expressing the idea is there somebody in the maybe can comment. There's a guy His youtube channels three blue one brown. Granison he does that masterfully will absolutely of a visualizing of expressing particular idea and talking about it as well back and forth would he. What do you think about grant. it's fantastic. I mean the flowering of math. Youtube is like such a wonderful thing because you know math teaching. There's so many different venues through which we can teach people math that. There's the traditional one right where i'm in a classroom with depending on the class. It could be thirty. People could be one hundred people could dot help me be a five hundred people have been calculus lecture or whatever it may be and they're sort of but there's some of that order of magnitude and with them for a long time for a whole semester and i can ask them to do homework and we talked together. We have office hours that they have won questions a lot of by a very high level of engagement. But how many people. I'm actually hitting at a time like not That many and you can and this kind of inverse relationship. Where the mooring. The fewer people. You're talking do more engagement you can ask for. The ultimate of course is like the mentorship relation of like a phd advisor and a graduate student. Where you spend a lot of one on one time together for like three to five years and the ultimate high level engagement to one person you know books. I can get a lot more people that are ever going to sit in my classroom. And you spend like However many hours it takes to read a book Somebody like three blue brown or number file or People like five heart. I mean youtube. Let's face it has bigger reached than a book like the video of many many many more views than like you know any hardback book like not written by crashing. Obama is gonna sell right so that i mean any and then you know those. Are you know some of them are like longer twenty minutes long number five minutes long but they're they're shorter and even somebody look look look eugenia. Chang's wonderful category theorist in chicago. I mean she was on i. Think the daily show or is it mixed use on you know. She has thirty seconds. But then there's like thirty seconds to say something about math mathematics to untold millions of people so everywhere along this curve ism is important one thing i feel like is great right now is that people are just broadcasting on all the channels because we each have our skills right somehow along the way like i learned how to write books. I had this kind of weird life as a writer where i spent a lot of time thinking about how to put english words together into sentences and sentences together into paragraphs like outland. Which is this kind of like a weird specialized skill and that's one thing but look sort of being able to make like winning good-looking eye-catching videos is like a totally different skill. And you'll probably you know somewhere out there. There's probably sort of some heavy metal ban teaching math through heavy metal and like using their skills to do that. I hope there is their music and so on. Yeah but there is something to the process. I mean grant does this especially well which is in order to be able to visualize something that he writes. Programs programmatic visualization. So like the the things. He's basically mostly through his Manam library in python everything's drawn through python you have to Give to truly understand the topic to be able to to visualize it in that way and not just understand but really kind of thinking very novel way. It's funny because a spoken with a couple of times spoken to them a lot offline as well. He really doesn't think he's doing anything new meaning like he sees himself as very different from. Maybe like a researcher. But it feels to me like he's creating something totally new. That act of understanding visualizing is as powerful or has the same kind of inkling of power was the process of proving something. You know it just. It doesn't have that clear destination but it's it's pulling out an insight in creating multiple sets of perspective that arrive at that insight and to be honest. It's something that. I think we haven't quite figured out how to value inside economic panics. In the same way and this is a bit older that i think we haven't quite figured out how to devalue the development of computational infrastructure you know we all have computers as our partners now and people build computers that sort of assistant participate in our mathematics. They build those systems and that's a kind of mathematics too but not in the traditional form of proving theorems and writing papers. But i think it's coming. Look i mean i think. For example. The institute for computational experimental mathematics at brown which is a you know it's a nsf funded. Mathis do very much part of sort of traditional math me. They didn't entire theme semester about visualizing mathematics looking into the same kind of thing that they would do for like an up and coming research topic. That's pretty cool. So i think there really is buying from The mathematics community to recognize that this kind of stuff is important and counts as part of mathematics. Like part of what. We're actually here to do. The i'm hoping to see more more of that. From like mit faculty from faculty from all the the top universities in the world a mask is weird question about the fields medal which is the nobel prize in mathematics. Do you think since we're talking about computers. There will one day come a time when a computer. Ai system will win the fields medal. No that's what a human would say. Why not is alex. Your that's like my capshaw like the proof that i'm a human. What does Does he want me to answer. Is there something interesting to be said about that. Yeah i am tremendously interested in what i can do in pure mathematics. I mean it's a it's a parochial interest. Right you're like why. Am i interested in like how can we help feed the world or else we can do more math. Like what can i do. We all have our interests right But i think it is a really interesting conceptual question and here too. I think it's important to be kind of historical because it's certainly true that there's lots of things that we used to call research mathematics that we would now call computation tasks that we've now offloaded to machines like you know in eighteen ninety. Somebody could be like. Here's my phd. Thesis i computed all the variants of this polynomial ring under the action of 'find group doesn't matter what those words mean. Just it's like something than eight. Ninety would take person a year to do and would be a valuable thing that you might wanna know and it's still a valuable thing that you might wanna know but now you type a few lines of code macauley or sage or magma and you just have it so we don't think of that as matheny more even though it's the same thing what's mccauley's asian mangla algebra program so those are like sort of bespoke systems that lots of mathematicians use as similar to maple and oh yes so similar to maple matico young but a little more specialized but yeah. It's programs that work with symbols and allow you to came to prove skinny. Do little little leaps improves. They're not really built for that. And that's a whole other story but these tools are part of the process of mathematics. Now right they are now for most mathematicians. I would say part of the process of mathematics and so You know there's a story. I tell in the book which i'm fascinated by. Which is you know so far attempts to get a is to prove interesting. Theorems have not done. So well doesn't mean they can't. It's actually a paper. I just saw. Which as a very nice use of a neuron defined counter examples to conjecture somebody like. Maybe this is always that and you can be like well. Let me sort of training they. I try to find things where that's not true and it actually succeeded now in this case. If you look at the things that it found you say like okay. I mean these are not famous conjectures. Yes okay so like somebody were down. Maybe this is so looking at. What they i came up with your like. You know a bet. If like five grad students have thought about that problem when you see okay. That is one of the things you might try if you sort of like working with still. It's pretty awesome. But the story i tell in the book was fascinated by is there is. There's okay we're gonna go back to nuts. there's a not called the conway not after john conway. Maybe we'll talk about a very interesting character. Also is this is a small tangent somebody who was supposed to talk to. Unfortunately he passed away and he's he's somebody i find it an incredible mathematician incredible human being. Oh and i am sorry that you didn't get a chance because having had the chance to him a lot when i when i was opposed to Yeah you missed out. There's no sugar coated. I'm sorry that you didn't get that chance. Yeah it is. what is so naz. Yes there was a question and again it doesn't matter the technicalities of the question but it's a question of whether the not is slice it has to do with something about what kinds of three dimensional services in florida mentions can be bounded by this not but never mind what it means some question And it's actually very hard to compute whether or not is slice or not and in particular the question of the conway not whether it was slicer not was particularly vac st- until it was solved just a few years ago by lisa piccirillo. Who actually now that. I think if it was here in austin i believe she was a grad student at ut austin at the time. I didn't even realize there was an austin connection to the store. Until i started telling us she is in fact i think she's now at mit so she's basically following you around. If i remember correctly reverse there's a lot of really interesting richness to this story. One thing about it is their paper was rather was very short. Very short and simple pages of which two were pictures Very short for a paper solving a major conjecture and really makes you think about what we mean by difficulty in mathematics. Like do you say oh actually. The problem wasn't difficult because you could solve it so simply or do you say like well no. Evidently it was difficult because like the world's top deposits many worked on it for twenty years and nobody could solve it so therefore it is difficult or is it that we need some new category of things that about which. It's difficult to figure out that they're not difficult. I mean this is the computer science own formulation but the the journey to arrive at the simple answer may be difficult but once you have the answer it will then appear simple and i mean there might be a large cat. I hope there's a large set of such solutions because You know once we stand at the end of the scientific process that were at the very beginning of or at least it feels like i hope there's just simply answers to everything that will look and it'll be a simple laws that govern the universe simpler explanation of what is consciousness of what is love. His mortality fundamental to life was the meaning of life Our our human special would just another sort of reflection of and all that is beautiful In the universe in terms of life forms all of his life has different when taken from a different perspective. All life can seem more valuable or not but really. It's all part of the same thing. All those will have a nice like two equations. Maybe one equation. But why do you think you want those questions to have simple answers. I think just like symmetry in the breaking symmetry is beautiful. Somehow there's something beautiful about simplicity. I think it is that its aesthetic. I or but it's aesthetic in the way that happiness is an aesthetic. Why is that so joyful that a simple explanation that governs a large number of cases is with the appealing. I even when it's not like obviously get a huge amount of trouble with that because oftentimes doesn't need to be connected with reality or even that explanation could be exceptionally harmful most of the world's history that has governed by hate and violence had a very simple explanation court that was used to cause the violence and the hatred. So like we get into trouble with that but why so appealing and in this nice forms in mathematics like you look at the einstein papers. Why are though so beautiful. And wise the andrew wiles proof the pharma's last theorem not quite so beautiful like what's beautiful about. That story is the human struggle of the human story of perseverance of the drama of not knowing if the proof is correct and ups and downs and all of those kinds of things. That's the interesting part but the fact that the proof is huge. Nobody understood well. Outsiders perspective nominations. The heck it is Is is not as beautiful as it could have been a wish. You was what from our originally said. Which is you know. it's it's not. It's not small enough to fit in the margins of this page. But maybe if he had like a page maybe couple of posted notes he would have enough to do the proof what do make of could take another of a multitude of tangents. Will you make a firm is last year because the statement there's a few theorems there's a few problems that are deemed by the world throughout history to be exceptionally difficult. And that one in particular is Really simple to formulate and Really hard to come up with proof for and it was like taunted a simple By from himself. There's something interesting to be said about that axiom. Plus why did he end equals e to the end for an of three or greater. Is there a solution to this. And then how do you go about proving that like how would you Tried to prove that. And would you learn from the proof eventually merged by andrew wiles. Yes it does. Let me just say the background. Because i don't know if everybody listening knows the story so you know firma Was an early number theorist early mathematician. Those special adjacent didn't really exist back. Then he comes up in the book actually in the context of a different theme of his the has to do with testing whether a number is prime or not. So i write about. He was one of the ones who was salty and like he would exchange these letters were he and his correspondence with like. Try to top each other and vexed each other with questions and stuff like this but this particular thing It's called for moslems theorem because it's note he wrote in his in his copy of the dismissed yoenis arithmetic like he wrote. Here's an equation has no solutions. I can prove it but the proves that a little too long to fit in this in the margin of this but he was just like writing a note to himself. now let me just they. Historically we know that vermont not proof of the serum for a long time. People you know people were like this mysterious proof that was lost the berno story right but fair mild later he did prove special cases of this theorem and wrote about it. Talk to people about the problem. It's very clear from the way that he wrote where he can solve. Certain examples of this type of equation that he did not know how to do the whole thing. He may have had a deep simple intuition about the hottest solve the whole thing that he had at that moment without ever being able to come up with a complete proof and that intuition lost the time. Maybe but i think so. But you're right that that is unknowable. But i think what we can know is that later. He certainly did not stink that. He had a proof that he was concealing from people. He yes he thought he didn't know how to prove it. I also think he didn't know how to prevent. Now i understand the appeal of saying like wouldn't it be cool. If is very simple equation. There was a very simple clever wonderful proof that you could do in a page or two and that would be great but you know what. There's lots of equations like that that are solved by very clever methods that including the special cases the firm. I wrote about the method of descent which is like very wonderful but in the end. Those are nice things like you know. You teach an undergraduate class and it is what it is but they're not big On the other hand work on the fairmont problem. It's what we like to call it because it's not really his theorem. Because i don't think he proved that i mean work. On the from a problem developed this incredible richness of number theory that we now live in today. Like not by the way just wiles andrew wiles being i knew together with richard taylor finally proved this theorem. But you know how this whole moment that people try to prove this theorem and they fail. And there's a famous false approved by lemay from the nineteenth century. Where coomer and understanding what mistake lemay had made his incorrect proof. Basically understand something. Incredible which is that. You know a thing we know about numbers is that You can factor them and you can factor them uniquely. There's only one way to break a number up into primes like if we think of a number like twelve twelve is two times three times to. I had to think about it right. It's or it's two times three. Of course you can reorder them right but there's no other way to do it. There's no universe in which twelve sometimes five or in which there's like four threes and not twelve is like two to three that is what it is and that's such a fundamental feature of arithmetic that we almost think of it. Like god's law you what i mean. It has to be that way to assess really powerful idea. It's so cool that every number is uniquely made up of other numbers and like made up. Meaning like there's these basic adams that for molecules at the for that get built on top of each other. I love it. I mean when. I teach you know undergraduate number theory. It's like it's the first really deep theorem you prove. What's amazing is you know the fact that you can factor in the into primes is much easier. Essentially euclid new although he didn't quite put it in that in that way the fact that you can do at all what's deep is the fact that there's only one way to do it or however you chop the number up you end up with the same set of prime factors and indeed what people finally understood at the end of the nineteenth century. Is that if you work. In number systems more general than the ones we're used to which it turns out a relevant for ma All of a sudden this stops being true things. Get i mean things get more complicated and now because you were praising simplicity before you were like it's so beautiful unique factors ation It's so great. Like what i tell you that. In more general number thieves systems there is no unique factories. Ation maybe you're like that's bad. No that's good because there's like a whole new world phenomenon to study that you just can't see through the lens of the numbers that were used to. So i'm i'm for complication. I'm highly in favor of complication. every complication is like an opportunity for new things to study. And is that the big Kind of One of the big in size is for you from andrew walls proof. Is there interesting insights about the process. The used to prove that sort of resonates with you as a mathematician as they're interesting concept there merch from it. Is there interesting human aspects to the proof whether is interesting human aspects to the proof itself as an interesting question certainly it has a huge amount of richness of at its heart is an argument of on of what's called deformation theory which was in part created by by my phd advisor. Barry mazor speak to would differ missionaries. I can speak to what it's like. How does it rhyme with right. Well the reason that buried called it deformation theory. I think he's the one who gave it the name. I hope i'm not wrong in saying sunday. In your book you have calling different things by the same name as one of the things in the beautiful map that opens the book. Yes and this is a perfect example. So this is another phrase of pawn. Carre this incredible generator of slogans and aphorisms. He said mathematics is the art of calling different things by the same name. Very thing that very thing we do. When we're like this triangle and this triangle come on the triangle. They're just in a different place right. So in the same way it came to be understood that the kinds of objects that use study When you study. When you study for moslems theorem and let's not even be too careful about what these objects are. I can tell you there gal. Representations and modular forms but saying those words mean so much but whatever they are there things that can be. Deformed moved around a little bit. And i think the inside of what andrew and then richard were able to do was to say something like this. Deformation means moving something. Just a tiny bit like an infinitesimal amount If you really are good at understanding which ways a thing can move in a tiny tiny tiny infinitesimal amount and certain directions. Maybe you can piece that information together to understand the whole global space in which it can move and essentially their argument comes down to showing the two of those big global spaces are actually the same. The fabled are equals t part of part of their proof which is at the heart of it and it involves this very careful principal like that. But that being said what i just said. It's probably not what you're thinking because what you're thinking when you think. Oh i have a point in space and move it around like a little tiny bit using your notion of distance that's from calculus those we know what it means by two points on the real line to be close together so get another thing that comes up in the book a lot. Is this back that the notion of distance is not given to us by god. We can meet a lot of different things by distance and just meaningless language. We do that all the time. We talk about somebody being a close relative. It doesn't mean next door to you right. I mean something else There's a different notion of distance. We have in mind and there are lots of notions of distances that you could use you know in the natural language processing community in ai. There may be some notion of semantic distance or lexical distance between two words. How much do they tend to arise in the same context. That's incredibly important for doing autocomplete and like machine translation and stuff like that and it doesn't have anything to do with our they next to each other in the dictionary right of the different kinds of distance. Okay ready in this kind of number theory. There is a crazy distance. Called the pontiac distance. I didn't write about this book. Because even though i love it ends a big part of my research life. It gets a little bit into the weeds but your listeners are going to hear about it now please wear you know what a normal person says when they say. Two numbers are close. They say like you know their differences like a small number like seven and eight are close because their differences one and one's pretty small if we were to be what's called a two attic number theorist we'd say oh two numbers are close if their difference is a multiple of a large power of two so like so like one and forty nine are close because their differences forty eight and forty eight is a multiple of sixteen does a pretty large power of two whereas whereas one and two are pretty far away because the difference between them is one which is not even a multiple of a power of two at all. It's odd you wanted to. It's really far from one. Like one and one sixty fourth because there are differences is a negative power of to to to the minus six. So those points are quite quite farmers at the power of a large and would be too the if that's the difference between two numbers in their clothes yes a too. Large power is very small number and two negative power is a very big number. That's okay I can't even visualize that back this. It takes if you've ever heard of the cantor set. It looks of like that. It is crazy that this is good for anything right. I mean this just sounds like a definition that someone would make determine you. But what's amazing is. There's a general theory of distance where you say any definition you make the satisfies. Certain axioms deserves to be called a distance and this change interrupt. You broke my brain now. Some Ten seconds ago Because i'm also starting to map to for the to added case to binary numbers ensure you know 'cause 'cause we were met says those charges exactly the way to think about trying to mess with number l. staticy okay which ones are close and then started visualized different binary numbers and how they which wants to close to each other and Much well there's a. That's a doctor. I would think of it. It's almost like binary numbers written in reverse because in a in a binary expansion two numbers or close a number that small like point. Zero zero zero zero something the desimone. It starts with a lot of zeroes in the to attic metric. A binary number is very small if it ends with a lot of zeros and then the decimal point gotcha binary numbers written backwards. As actually i should. That's what i should have said lex. That's like very good metaphor. Okay but so. Why is that a wise inching. Were for the fact that It's it's a beautiful kind of Framework different kind of frame which to think about distances. And you're talking about not just did to addict but the generalization of anything he and so so that because that's the kind of deformation that comes up in wiles is in wildfires proof that deformation we're moving something a little bit means a little bit in this to addicts therapy. Okay now. i mean it's such a. I mean i can just get excited talking about it and i just taught this like in the fall semester. That like reformulating wise See pick a different Measure of distance over which you can talk about very tiny changes and then use that to the prove things about the entire thing. Yes although you know. Honestly what i would say. I mean it's true that we use it to prove things but i would say we use it to understand things and then because we understand things better then can prove things but you know the goal is always the understanding. The goal is not so much to prove things. The goal is not to know. What's true or false. I mean this is something. I read about in the book near the end. Something that so wonderful. Wonderful essay by by bill. Thurston kind of one of the great geometry's of our time who unfortunately passed away a few years ago. called on proof in progress in mathematics and he writes very wonderfully about how you know. We're not. It's not a theorem factory where we have production quota. I mean the point that mathematics is to help. Humans understand things way we test. That is that we're proving new theorems along the way that's the benchmark but that's not the goal he just as a as a kind of absolutely but as a tool. It's kind of interesting to approach a problem by saying. How can i change the distance function. Like what the nature of distance because that might start to lead to insights for deeper understanding. Like if i were to try to describe human society by a distance to people close if they love each other right and and then start to Do a full analysis on the everybody that lives on earth currently the seven billion people out and from that perspective as opposed to the geographic perspective of distance. And then maybe they'll be a bunch of insights about the source of Violence the source of Maybe entrepreneurial success or invention or economic successor different systems communism capitalism. Stu i mean that's i guess what economic strikes to do but really saying let's think outside the box about totally new distance functions that Unlock something profound about the space. Yeah because think about okay. Here's a i mean now we're gonna talk about ai. Which you know a lot more about that. I do so just you know. Start laughing uproariously. If i say something completely wrong we both know very little relative to what we will know centuries from now shot that is a really good underway way to think about it. I like it okay. So let's just go for it. Okay so. I think you'll agree with this. That in some sense. What's good about a is that we can't test any case in advance. The whole point is to make a one point of it. I guess is to make good predictions about cases. We haven't yet seen and in some sense that's always gonna involve some notion of distance because it's always going to involve somehow taking case we haven't seen in saying what cases that we have seen. Is it close to is it. Like is somehow an interpretation between now when we do that in order to talk about things being like other things implicitly or explicitly were invoking some notion of distance and boy. We better get it right. Yeah right if you try to do. Natural language processing and your idea of distance between words is how close they are in the dictionary when you write them in alphabetical order gonna get pretty bad translations right. No the notion of distance has to come from somewhere else. Yeah that's essentially neural. Networks are doing this will were meetings are doings. Yes coming up with in the kids who were debating literally literally what they are doing it learning at distance. Those are super complicated distance functions. And it's almost nice to think. Maybe there's a nice transformation that simple a sorry there's a nice formulation of the distance again with the simple so you don't let me ask you about this from understanding perspective. There's the richard. Firemen may be attributed to him. But maybe many others this idea that if you can't explain something simply that you don't understand it in how many cases. How often is that true. Do you find. There's some profound truth in. Oh okay so you were about to ask. Is it true to which i would say flatly. No but then use that you followed that up with. Is there some profound truth in it okay. Sure so there's some truth in it. It's not true mathematician answered that is in it. Yeah is that learning to explain. Something helps you understand it but real things are not simple. Yeah a few things are most are not and i don't to be honest. I don't we don't really know other firemen released said that right or something like that is sort of disputed. But i don't think firemen could literally believed that whether or not he said it and you know he was the kind of guy i i didn't know him but reading his writing he likes to sort of say stuff like stuff that sounded good. You know what i mean. So it's totally strikes me as the kind of thing he could have said because he liked the way saying it made him feel but also knowing that he didn't like literally mean it. Well i definitely have have a lot of friends and i've talked a lot of physicists. And they do derive joy from believing that they can explain stuff simply or believing as possible to explain stuff simply even when they explanations not. Actually that simple. Like i've never heard people think the explanation is simple and they do the explanation. I think it is simple. But it's not capturing the phenomena that we're discussing is capturing it somehow maps in their mind but it's it's taking as a starting point is an assumption that there's a deep knowledge in a deep understanding. That's that's actually very complicated. And the simplicity is almost like a almost like a poem about the more complicated thing as opposed to a distillation and i love poems. Poem is not an explanation. Well some people might disagree with that but certainly for mathematical perspective. No poet would disagree with it. No poet with this. You don't think there's some things that can only be described imprecisely. Is that explanation. I don't think any poem with poet would say there is an explanation. They might say it's a description they might say sort of capturing sort of was some people might say the only truth is like music that the the not the only truth but some truth can only be expressed through art. And i mean that's the whole thing we're talking about religion and myth and there's some things that are limited cognitive capabilities and the tools of mathematics with the tools of physics are just not going to allow us to capture like it's possible. Consciousness is one of those things. Yes that is definitely possible. But i would even say look. Unconscious is the thing about which were still in the dark. As to whether there's an explanation we would would understand as an explanation at all by the way. Okay i gotta give yet one more amazing because this guy just never stopped coming up with great quotes that you know paul air dish another fellow who appears in the book and by the way he thinks about this notion of distance of like personal affinity. Kind of like what. You're talking about the kind of social network and dot notion of distance that comes from that and that's something that porridge as well thought about distances in network because he didn't probably didn't think about the socialist fasting and that's how it started that story verge number yoga but you know heritage was famous for saying and this is sort of were saying he talked about the book capital t capital. Be the book. And that's the book. Where god keeps the right proof of every theorem so when he saw proof he really liked. It was really elegant. Really simple things like from the book. That's you found one of the ones that's in the book He wasn't a religious guy by the way he referred to god as the supreme fascist. He was like a but somehow he was like. I don't really believe in god. But i believe in god's book i mean there was a punk array on the other hand And by the way there are other held. Hudson is one who comes up in this book. She also saw math She's one of the people who sort of develops The disease model that we now use the we use contract pandemics says model sort of originally comes from her work with ronald ross but she was also super super super devout and she also sort of an other side of the religious coin. Was like yeah. Math is how we communicate with god. She she has a all. These people are incredibly quarterback. She says you know math isn't the truth of the the things that matter. He's like they're not the most important of god thoughts but the only ones that we can know precisely. Does he like this. Is the one place where we get to see. What god's thinking what we do mathematics gan not a fan of poetry music some people say hendrix like some people say chapter one of that books. Mathematics and chapter two is like classic rock race. So like clear that the i'm sorry you just send me off attending just imagining outta hendrix concert. Trying to figure out if it was from the book or not all what was coming to just as it but one point carre said about this is he's like if like this is all worked out in the language of the divine and if a divine being came down and told us we wouldn't be able to understand it so it doesn't matter so punk array was of the view that there were things that were sort of inhumanly complex and that was how they really were. Our job is to figure out the things that are not like that. They're not like that. All this talk of primes got me hungry. For primes. you Your blog post the beauty of bound. Gaps a huge discovery about prime numbers. And what it means for the future of math. Can you tell me about prime numbers. What the heck are those would have. Twin primes. would've prime gaps gaps in primes. What all these things. And what if anything. What exactly is beautiful about them. Yes. oh prime. Numbers are one of the things that number theorists study the most and have for millennia their numbers. Which can't be factored. And then you say like like five and you're like wait. I can factor. Five five is five times one. Okay not like that. That is a factor as asian. Absolutely is a way of expressing. Five is a product of two things. But don't you agree that something trivial about it. It's something you can do to any number. It doesn't have content. The way that if i say that twelve six times two or thirty five seven times five. I've really done something to it. I've broken up. So those are the kind of factors that count and number the doesn't have a factor as that is called prime except historical side. Note one which at some times mathematical history has been deemed a prime but currently is not. And i think that's for the best but i bring it up only because most people think that you know these definitions are kind of if we think about them hard enough we can figure out which definition is true. There's just an artifact of mathematics so so what's happened is in his best for us for our purposes edge cases are weird right so So can't you can't be it doesn't count when you use yourself as a number or one as part of the factories ation or as the entirety. The factors ation so the so you somehow get to the meat of the number by factor rising it and that's seems to get to the core of all of mathematics. Yeah you take any number. And you factor is it until you can factor is no more what you have left some big pile of primes by definition when you can't factor anymore when you when you're done you can't break the numbers of anymore. What's left must be prime. You know twelve breaks into two and two and three So these numbers are the atoms the building blocks of all numbers. And there's a lot we know about them but as much more than don't know them the first few there's two three five seven eleven by the way they're all gonna be odd from the non because they were even in fact two of them but it's not all the odd numbers. Nine isn't brian because it's three times three. Fifteen isn't prime because three times five at thirteen is where we two three five seven eleven thirteen seventeen nineteen twenty one twenty three is a cetera et cetera. Okay so you could go on. How did you go food just sitting here. By the way your brain if continues without interruption to hundred. I think so. There's always those ones that there's a. There's a famous one growth in d.c. prime fifty-seven like sort of alexander. Grodin dig great algebraic geometry of giving some lecture involving the choice of a prime in general. And somebody said like. Can't you just choose a primary said. Okay fifty seven. What isn't not prime. it's three times nineteen. Oh damn but it was like i promise you in some circles. It's funny story okay This wasn't but There's a humor in it. Yes i would say over one hundred definitely. Don't remember like one hundred seven. I think i'm not sure okay. Likes the category of thank fake primes that that are easily mistaken to be prime fifty seven. I wonder yeah. So i i would say seven Won't be seven and fifty. One are definitely like prime offenders. Oh i didn't do that on purpose. Well done didn't do it on purpose. Anyway they're definitely ones that people Or ninety one is another classic seven times thirteen and really feels kind of prime doesn't but it is not. Yeah so there's also by the way but there's also an actual notion of pseudo prime which is which is the thing with the formal definition which is not a psychological thing. It is a prime which passes a primarily test devised by fairmont which is a very good test which if if a number fails this test. It's definitely not prime as there was some hope that oh maybe if a number passes the test than it definitely is prime that will give it very simple criterion for promoting. Unfortunately it's only perfect in one direction so there are numbers. I want to save three hundred. Forty one is the smallest Which passed the test but are not prime. three hundred. Forty one is test. Easily explainable or no Yes actually Ready let me give you the simplest version of it. You can dress it up a little bit. Here's the basic idea I take the number the mystery number. I raised to that power. So let's say you're mystery numbers six. You sorry you asked me. Are you ready to break my brand again but yes. Let's let's let's do it. We're going to do a live demonstration. Let's say your number is six. So i'm going to raise two to the sixth power. Okay so if i were working on i'd be like that's two cubes squared. That's eight times aids that's sixty four. Now we're going to divide by six. But i don't actually care what the question is only the remainder so let's a sixty four to buy. The by six is was it. There's a question of ten but the remainder is four So you've failed because the answer has to be two for any prime. Let's let's do with five. Which is prime To to the fifth is thirty to divide thirty two by five and you get six with the remainder of to the remainder of two seven two to the seventh is one twenty eight divided up by seven. And let's see. I think seven times fourteen. Is that right. No seven times. Eighteen is one twenty six with remainder of to right when twenty. Eight is a multi seven plus two so if that remainder is not to then. That's definitely not it's definitely not prime and then if is it's likely prime but not for sure is likely applying for not for sure and there's actually a beautiful geometric proof which is in the book. Actually that's like one of the most granular parts of the book as a such a beautiful could not give it so you draw a lot of like pearl necklaces and spin them. That's kind of geometric nature of the of this proof of fermat's little theorem So yes so a pseudo there problems. That are kind of faking that they passed that test but there are numbers that are faking it. That passed that test but not actually prime but the point is there many many many theorems about prime numbers. Are there like. There's a bunch of questions to ask. Is there an infinite number of primes. Can we say something about the gap between primes is the numbers grow larger and larger and larger. And so on. Yeah it's a perfect example of your desire. For simplicity in all things would be really simple if there was only finally many primes yes and then there will be this simple finite set of atoms that all numbers would be built. That's right that would be very simple and gooden certain ways but it's completely false and number of the totally different if that were the case. It's just not true. In fact this is something else that you could news. This is a very very old fact like much before before we had like modern number of the problems that are that number. So what about the gas ritchie and the primes right. So so one thing that people recognized and really thought about a lot of the primes on average seemed to get farther and farther apart as they get bigger and bigger in other words. It's less and less common like i already told you. Of the first ten numbers two three five seven. Four them are prime. That's a lot forty percents If i looked at ten digit numbers no way would forty percent of those prime being primarily a lot rare in some sense because there's a lot more things for them to be visible by. That's one way of thinking of it. It's it's a lot more possible for there to be a factor because there's a lot of things you can try to factor out of it as the numbers get. Bigger and bigger primarily gets a rarer and rarer and the extent to which. That's the case. That's pretty well understood but then you can ask more fine. Grain questions on. Here is one of twin prime pair of primes. That are two apart. Mike three and five or like eleven and thirteen or seventeen in one thousand nine hundred and one thing we still don't know is are infinitely many of those we know on average get farther and farther apart. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be like occasional new folks that come close together and indeed of. We think that there are and one interesting question. I mean this is because i think you might say well why how could possibly have a right to have an opinion about something like that like you know. We don't have any way of describing a process that makes primes. Like sure can like look at your computer and see a lot of them but the fact that there's a lot why is that evidence is infinitely many right. Maybe i can go on the computer and fined ten million one million ten million is pretty far from infinity rights. How is that. How is that evidence. There's a lot of things there's like a lot more than ten million atoms. That doesn't infinitely many atoms in the universe right. I mean on most people's disco theories. There's probably not as i understand it. okay so why would we think this. The answer is that we've that it turns out to be incredibly productive and enlightening to think about primes as if they were random numbers as if they were randomly distributed according to a certain law. Now they're not they're not randazzo involved there it's completely deterministic whether a number is prime or not and yet it just turns out to be phenomenally useless useful in mathematics to stay even if something is governed by deterministic laws. Let's just pretend to wasn't. Let's just pretend that they were produced by some random process and see if the behavior is roughly the same. and if it's not maybe changed the random process. We make the randomness a little bit different than we get and see if you can find the random process that matches the behavior we see and then maybe you predict that. Other behaviors of the system are like that of the random process. And so that's kind of like it's funny. Because i think when you talked about the twin prime conjecture people think you're saying wow there's like some deep structure there that like makes those primes be like close together again and again and no. It's the opposite of deep structure. What we say when we say we believe the twin prime conjecture is that we believe. The primes are like sort of strewn around pretty randomly. And if they were then by chance you would expect there to be infinitely many twin primes. And were saying yeah. We expect them to just like they would if they were random dirt. The you know the fascinating parallel here is Has got a chance to talk to. Sam harris and he uses the prime numbers as an example often. Are you familiar. With who samba's he uses that as an example of there being no free will wear to get this well. He just uses as an example of in might seem like. This is a random number generator. But it's all like formally defined so we keep getting more and more primes than like that might feel like a new discovery in. That might feel like a new experience but it's not. It was always written in the cards. But it's funny that you say that because a lot of people think of like randomness The fundamental randomness within the nature of reality might be the source of something that we experienced this free will. And you're saying is that useful to look prime numbers as As a random process in order to prove stuff about them but fundamentally of course is not a random process will not approve some stuff about them so much as to figure out what we expect to be true and then try to prove that. And here's what you don't want to do. Try really hard to prove something. That's false that makes it really hard to prove the thing it's false. You certainly want to have some heuristic ways of making a guess about drew so yeah. Here's what i would say. Let's you're going to be imaginary. Sam harris now. Us like you're talking about prime numbers and your like but prime numbers are completely deterministic. And i'm saying like well let's treat them like a random process and you say but you're just saying something that's not true they're not interested deterministic and i'm like okay great you hold your insistence that is on a random process. Meanwhile i'm generating inside about the problems that you're not because i'm willing to sort of pretend that there's something that they're not in order to understand what's going on. Yeah so it doesn't matter what the reality is. What matters is what's What framework of thought results in the maximum number of insights. Because i feel look. I'm sorry but i feel you have more insights about people if you think of them as like beings have wants and needs and desires and do stuff on purpose. Even if that's not true you still understand better. What's going on by treating them in that. Don't you look what you work on machine learning. Don't you find yourself sort of talking about what. The machine is what the machine is trying to do. In a certain instance do not find yourself drawn to that language. Well it knows this. It's trying to do that. It's learning that. I'm certainly drawn that language to the point where i received quite a bit of criticisms for because i you know like oh i'm on your side man so especially in robotics. Why but robotics people don't like to name their robots are they certainly don't like the gender their robots because the moment you gender robot you start to enter more is if you say he or she you start to you in your mind construct like a Like a life story in your mind can't help it. You create like a humorous story to this person. You start to this person this robot he starts to project your own but i think that's what we do to each other and i think that's actually really useful from the engineering process especially for human robot interaction and yes for machine learning systems for helping you build intuition about a particular problem. It's almost like asking this question. You know when a machine learning system fails in particular edge case asking like what were you thinking about like like asking almost like when you're talking about to a child who just does something bad. You're you won't understand like what was How did they see the world. Maybe there's a totally new. Maybe you're the one that thinking about the world incorrectly and Yet that at the promo frustration process. I think is ultimately good for insight. And the same. As i agree with you i tend to believe about free will as well the mesquite ridiculous question if it's okay. Of course i've just recently. Most people go on like the whole like youtube things. And i went on a rabbit hole often do of wikipedia and i found a page on Finite ism ultra finite ism. An intuition ism orient. i forget what it's called. Yeah intuition ism intuition ism that seemed pretty pretty interesting. I have my to do list actually like look into like is there are people who like formally like real mathematicians. They're trying to argue for this but the belief there i think the finite ism that infinity is fake meaning Infinity may be like a useful hack for certain like a useful tool mathematics. But it really gets us into trouble because there's no infinity in the real world. Maybe i'm sort of not expressing that fully correctly but basically saying like there's things there in once you add into mathematics things that are not probably within the physical world. You're starting to inject to to to corrupt your framework of reason. What do you think about that. I mean i think the first of all. I'm not an expert and i couldn't even tell you what the differences between those three terms fin finance altruism. Intuition is a model. I know related. I tend to associate them with the netherlands in the nineteen thirties. Okay i'll tell you. Can i just cook comment. Because i read the wikipedia beige the difference like the ultimate sense of the modern age. Can i just because. I'd rather wikipedia. Let's sums up our moment bro. On basically an expert ultra ultra financial system. So finance ism says that the only infinity to have is that the natural numbers and infinite so like those numbers are infinite so like one two three four five. They entered yours. I that the ultra finances says nope even that infinity's fake that's a bit ultra-fine. It doesn came second. I'll bet it's like when there's like a hardcore scene and then one guys like now there's a lot of people in this and to find a way to be more hardcore hardcore people back to the mo. Yeah okay. So is there any Are you ever 'cause. I'm often uncomfortable with infinity next. Psychologically i you know i have. I have trouble when that's niks in there. It's because it works. So damn well i get a little suspicious because it could be almost like a crutch or an simplification. That's missing something profound about reality. Well so first of all okay if you say like is there like a serious of doing. Mathematics doesn't really treat infinity as a real thing. Maybe kind of agnostic. And it's like. I'm not really gonna make a firm statement about whether it's a real thing or not. Yeah that's called most of the history of mathematics. It was only after kanter. Right really are sort of okay. We're going to have a notion of like the car analogy of an infinite set and lake. Do something that you might call like the modern theory of gravity. That said obviously everybody was drawn to this notion and no not. Everybody was comfortable with it. Look i mean. This is what happens with newton right. I mean so. Newton understands that the talk about tangents and talk about instantaneous velocity. He has to do something that we would. Now call taking a limit Right the fabled dwi deacs if you sort of go back to your calculus class but those talk to us. Remember this mysterious thing and you know what is it. What is it well. He'd say like well it's like you sort of divide the length vis line segment by the Other lines and then you make them a little shorter and you divide again and then you make them little shorter and you'd fight again and then you just keep doing that. Until infinitely short you. Divide them again. These quantities that are like they're not zero but there are also smaller than any actual number. These infants astles well. People were queasy about it and they weren't wrong to be queasy about right from a modern perspective it was not really well for and there's very famous critique of newton bishop berkeley where he says what these things you define like you know. They're not zero. But they're smaller than any number. Are they the ghosts of departed quantities. Like ultra line of one hand. He was right. it wasn't really rigorous. I'm on standard on the other hand was out there doing calculus another. We're not right word of new ordos. I think a sort of intuition is view. For instance i would say would express serious doubt and by. It's not it's not just infinity. It's like saying. I think we express serious doubt that like the real numbers exist now. Most people are comfortable with the real numbers while computer scientists with floating point number. I mean the floating point arithmetic ask. That's a great point. Actually i think in some sense this flavor of doing math saying we shouldn't talk about things that we cannot specify in a finite amount of time. There's something very computational inflator about that and it's probably not a coincidence that it becomes popular in the thirties and forties which is also kind of like the dawn of ideas about former computation. Right you probably know better than i do. Sorry what because popular the these years that maybe we should be doing math in this more restrictive way where even a thing that you know because look the origin of all this number represents a magnitude like the length of a line like so. I mean the idea that there's a continuum there's like there's like is pretty old but that just doesn't mean we can't reject it if we want to a lot of the fundamental ideas in computer science when you talk about the complexity of problems of touring himself. They rely on an infiniti as well. The ideas that kind of challenge that the whole space of machine learning. I would say challenges that it's almost like the engineering approach. Things like the floating point arithmetic. The other one that back. John conway challenges this idea. I mean maybe two tien the the ideas of deformation theory and and limits to infinity. Is this idea of cellular. Automata with Giancarlo looking at the game of life. Stephen wolff firms work that. I've been a big fan of for awhile cellular dominant. I was wondering if you have. If you've ever encountered these kinds of objects he ever looked at them. A mathematician where you have very simple rules of tiny little objects that when taken as a whole create incredible complexities but are very difficult to analyze. Very difficult to make sense of even though one individual object one part. It's like what were you saying about. Andrew walls like you can look at the formation of a small piece to tell you about the whole. It feels like were cellular automata or any kind of complex systems. It's it's often very difficult to say something about the whole thing. Even when you can precisely described operation of The the local neighborhoods. Yeah love that subject. I haven't really done research in it myself. I played around with it. I'll send you a fun blog post. I wrote where i made some cool texture patterns from soya. Automata that i but and those are really always compelling is like you create simple rules and they create some beautiful textures. It doesn't make any sounds like did you see there was a great paper. I don't know if you saw this machine. Learning papers is. I don't know if you want to talk about where they're learning the texture is like let's title like reverse engineer and like learn a cellular automaton deuce texture that looks like this from the images very cool and as you say the thing you said is i feel the same way when mentioning lending papers that. What's especially interesting is the cases where it doesn't work. What does it do when it doesn't do the thing that you tried to train it. Yeah that's extremely interesting. Yeah that was cool. Paper so yeah. So let's start with the game of life with. Or let's start with john conway so conway let's john conway again. Just i don't know from my outsider's perspective. There's not many mathematicians that stand standoff throughout the history of the twentieth century. He's one of them feel like he's not sufficiently recognized. I think he's pretty recognized. Okay well i mean. He was a full professor at princeton for most of his life. Either sort of the pinnacle of i found myself. Every time i talk about conway. In how excited i am bought him. I have to constantly explain to people who he is. And that's that's alw