20 Episode results for "John Berko"
Yeah but, no but: Politics Weekly podcast
"He's even joyful that for the first time in this long song this House has actually accepted our responsibilities together come together and embraced the the garden parliament give response misspeaking how well committee is essentially a vote on the principle are you prepared let the government bringing this legislation and is it worth while debating it because of MP's don't Meld and now with Boris Johnson plus nine Labor impedes that is a crucial moment and I think it it's very hard for those pushing for a second to try to sneak in another one on Monday didn't get that way but in a sense did the same as a meaningful vote would have done of say actually is there support in principle pushing principle is up to the point in wasting people's time going through it line by line so this was in a sense you know we talked about meaningful votes and things like that we've had four of those in the it and this is politics weekly on Tuesday night Bush don't manage to the majority for his vision of a hard brexit but the fact we now have a majority assembled a Tory party united even with those people that he fission parties went tete-a-tete on the various points of contention arising from his deal Johnson's response if you don't like my deal let's go to the polls and let the people decide the majority in the House of Commons four brexit in principle to get it over the line what comes next is an entirely different question and and he doesn't have a simply paused so we leave on the thirty first where we have an extension until the end of January where we have an election before Christmas will this ever end I'm with nine for proceeding with Braxton that's Tom said it's a really significant moment that MP's for the first time we all have had before is majorities against no deal we've never had in parliament that's an achievement we maybe didn't think was possible I totally agree I think that is the most significant moment of the week for the first time in this entire process we have something to reason they never could he got a brexit deal that was passed by parliament almost immediately afterwards that same parliament voted down his motion to fast track that deal through referendum two way do they go from here how do they assemble a majority for that looks almost impossible now just explain to us what MP's voting for table that would have guaranteed that the UK would be in a position to leave the EU on October the thirty first with a deal against all of the evidence that he would be out by that day I don't even think that's fast embarrassing for him because he can always turn around and say look this is what parliament is forcing me to do random date happens to be Halloween there is no reason except that of course Boris Johnson kept saying do diner ditch swore that it looks as if the twenty seven grant the three month delay if it does so the PM has threatened to pull the bill and push an election but for now the legislation awarded by voters we'll also look at the race for the speaker and the legacy that John Burqa will leave when he steps down from the chair on the thirty first of October that's all in this week's politics next to discuss all of this I'm joined by Guardian Columnist polly twenty Jan Rutta of Ukaine of changing Europe and the Atlantic's Tom mctigue so tom he got a deal passed will happen if they don't come together so sense of survival but that is a precarious majority I think it's still important to say that is as possible isn't it also though that this majority of thirty which was pretty healthy for second reading could melt away at a later stage during the parliamentary process totally I mean he's one of the under reasonable would say he has somehow broken his promise betrayed his position but I don't know whether he he seems to think Georgie four vision of Brexit and that's what I Johnson sick very surprisingly I reflected in the last couple of weeks secured and polly bushels now has a big decision it's an election if we get a three month extension but some in the party including Dharma are still holding out hope for putting Johnson's bill to a referendum so what will the prime minister how prepared to accept commitments in domestic legislation is Boris Johnson to get brexit done because actually all the substance of what brexit meantime for next week's thirty foot Tober deadline straight after the vote the prime minister polls the legislation until he hears from Fussell's on what they've decided in terms of another extension eighteen Lebron please going against the party nine voting in favor of Boris Johnson's withdrawal real agreement. What is Jeremy Corbyn Party stand ahead of a potential election I'm willing to rebel? MP's be punished more politically costly for the opposition to stop brexit every move they make whether it's taking the government to court or all sorts of other not one for the debate yesterday viz seek to negotiate a Customs Union Butch Jones could accept that then he knows if he came back with the majority after an election date but then the political cost of that goes up an open up so this this is the skill that no Montana I think we we have to serve except that they are making union or getting all of those rights cemented in nothing is unless it's actually on the legal side of the withdrawal agreement bill this MPG and blackfoot said they're in favor of election wants the brexit extension is secured but the liptons are still fighting for second referendum copen says his party will health and I think that's going to sing in and then there will be a much stronger a pushback against this whole operation because everything comes later I spend a couple months on this and and get it through and and leave that certainly seems to make a lot more sense those nothing special about the thirty first of October host precarious majority as you can imagine it's full of people who don't agree with him on the very basics of Brexit you know they don't want hard version of brexit some of the majority for Brexit in principle really because at all for others Labor MP's want to be able to say to their constituents look I voted for it in principle but when it comes and every time he loses its political alchemy he can turn it into a victory and then he sells out on the doorstep and is interesting question if the bill went forward the people will mind about that I'm everybody may a lot of people may want it to stop or wanted progress but I don't think that dates very crucial Tommy is or whether it's allowing a second reading and then blocking it to the public understand what is happening or do they just see people blocking brexit again and it feels like we're in an election campaign he could say that seek to negotiate yeah I'm going to do that and just overturn is domestic legislation is not in the withdraw treaty equally he could second reading on a no from having to write stories about these things. It's going to explain to the poor baffled readers listeners but was it empties were affected voting for second reading yeah but first prime minister's questions was heated as usual on Wednesday as Boris Johnson and leaders Libran pays a lot of the terrarium pays actually don't really want what what he is selling they have come together perhaps out of a sense of dread of what what an everything will depend on who wins the election I mean that's really interesting different with difference with Theresa May's deal where because of the backstop effectively a fullback of being in a customs union with the and loads and loads of things about observing rights on this protecting the environment whatever else he wants but if he's got a majority after election he can do away with all that he can it doesn't he can clocks up cues and said forget this Halloween deadline next week is still rather be dead in a ditch not leave on that particular day conservatives were to get a majority after election which may be very soon whatever agreements have been made through amendment May WanNa wonderful victory on getting accustomed you and because the EU put in those level playing field conditions on workers rights in those were actually in an international treaty it had a very different status and actually turn any of those commitments. I think that what you said Jill is is really important then I don't think a lot of people on the Labor side well did radicals the house have understood really looks like is not for now that's for the long-term relationship so you could argue if you will burst Johnson we think Paribas Customs Union amendment came Clock Table The amendments where we get to try and improve the bill where we get to get into the guts of what it really is and try and try and make it better so all vote for the the extent to which these amendments will be easy to wipe away after an elective maturity's Jones on getting if if the the practice on the practice is pretty horrible this is a much farther concerned much worse deal than the one theresa may had other not vote for it and it's much we should go into that election saying we'll have a referendum we'll support remained we all the party for the many not the few often said and why do you feel doing the right thing by your constituents voting for it to continue its past history parliament what the arguments your considering well my constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave so I think part of it is respecting that but at the same time pushing forward at second reading does not mean signing off his be seen to be switching leave the supporting Aleve with far fewer guarantees than they were being offered back in the part of the year and yet in the nineteen can reading but I'm not sure what I will do on the program and Labor's Line Jeremy Corbin's line is the labor impatient against this deal to them thirty six thousand people voted Romanian stoke-on-trent Fifty eight thousand people voted Labour at the general election the Asia and we lost to say it is phillips and in Sutherland they have taken the opposite view there in strongly leave constituencies but they say it is our duty not follow nations he was weighing up when deciding how to vote I wanted to get to the committee stage I don't know that sounds fudge but I want to get to the part of this debate where we actually get this gives you an awful lot of guarantees and those aunt and Johnston's deal that's interesting difficulty that some of these labor leaders are now found themselves in that because of the impact that's one reason why quite Lahser was saying your if your labor lever this is actually a pretty good deal for you in that drool agreement you mean like a destination but actually measly have to work for the forty eight percent and the fifty percent and if people that say we should just concentrate on remain voters I would say to you and say and final full you can easily vote for second reading go into the committee's Day and have a really good batch of trying to get that customs union trying to get even greater protections for workers going to be heading towards the general election sooner rather than later whether it's before Christmas or after we don't quite know yet what do you say those Labor MP's you say we should be remain party and in Sunderland who has just taken a position and she's going to defend it I think that the ones that are coming out of this worst of all those that are saying that they are pro exit and then not supporting it and not supporting Terry's amaze deal which locked in an international law as we were talking about earlier rights that they that they want snipers absolutely and just keep ramping up the pressure I mean as probably says there are labor employees who have been brave and outspoken very early on people like Bridget Phillips cravenly whatever they want but to do what's best for them and to argue with them and to lead rather than follow that's very brave position and you can understand people Fold in the face of very heavily leave voting constituency saw view of Boris Johnson listening to that sinking Gosh Lock these votes my followers there's been a much better position that would have made thirty much easier for everybody as it happens he hasn't so we'll see how it transpires guy with one more question hey too so I some of the libraries and you have to say the DP have made some pretty enormous strategic miscalculations on this I'm Boris Johnson and the Tories I now of them went through the liberties with the government last night voted for this deal to continue in principle we spoke to one of them Gareth Snail yesterday afternoon and asked him what the consumer it's exactly the same as Theresa May's bill there's some changes but not really that many but it is completely ridiculous to say polymer should only in an a proceedings if you're not happy with how it's amended during the committee stage absolutely and lease and he said that today to the prime minister that those vote for is making sure that there's a clear role for parliament going forward you can do I committee state and if you are not successful then you still have options available at I think this is a major piece of constitutional legislation. MP's had not seen any of this in draft before most of it could have been published yolks ago because foot to the floor united and squeezing them for all they've got a meanwhile jill don't Suzanne a fairly good job of lumping Labor leadership Labor parliament would regret at length it doesn't have at least as go at getting some of those out I mean things like citizen's rights in the way in which the UK MP's much of is own some of his own back benches to into this sort of this blob of kind of parliament stopping me getting what I want you know eventually sent that I propose to guarantee the rights of you Houston's when we turn off your ability to apply for settled status the way in which we construct this now we like Snell I'll say we have to follow the wishes of our constituents but recorded a rubber Labor MP's if you look at Mary Crane Wakefield if you could a simple saying the every remain very will be labor and even if it was simply enough to win can understand the instincts of Lebron pays like it didn't he on Saturday requesting a delay as in the act but but somehow it's you know it's not his delays parliament's delay it's not my fault I think it's really and his right best example of what you're saying was when Steve Barkley himself in front of the committee in the Lord's couldn't couldn't get right one of the most fundamental it's now who who think they're doing right by their constituents by supporting this it's an interesting divide between those labor MP's in leave seats who go one way and those who go the other people cost for for pulling their support related to keep going with the bill and every time stand up at the dispatch box and say Labor's prevent labors allow customs forms and have checks and I said no and then he said Oh yes now that's really crucial and as far as the for most people in northern are concerned will things in the future will businesses in Northern Ireland crossing over the Irish Sea to the rest of the UK will they have to actually I trust the Home Office body called the Independent Monitoring Authority will talking about wind rush to being stored up zen piece opportunity to try and put in some safeguards against that uh-huh free-trader rain agreement and say well that's possibly where we end up we might add a little bit on and they would see that dot is emme stupid brexit fundamentally was never the choice off one thousand nine point nine percent of economists you won't Brexit because that is a shocking difference to have to cross the border into a part of your own country and Barkley had himself a not what he's Hedera that so always granted a technically extension of a few weeks Susan proper scrutiny on this actually is in e you country's interest too because that's protecting their citizens who are here who through secondary legislation partly because actually they're not ready in these areas not lease arrangements for Northern Ireland which were only only finalized last week in Europe so I really think that actually polishes will fight back and say no prime minister apart from this artificial deadline okay it's a deadly low but the e the second region today all those not give them for thirty day and there is still a lot of work today and again if the prime minister has given himself just one more extra day we could probably have gone have two days two days to look at it the commission you have ten days to look at it there are lots of nasties buried in that bill that welcome back to politics weekly I'm Heather Stewart I want to get a deal and the best chance of getting a better deal is to take all regard and try and beat into shape so you will reserve the right to vote against the latest date stage my mind majority might not be stabilize I think would would you just be tempted to go for an election now keep pushing keep pushing them and make that make them pay higher political and so it will have to produce the forecast for the next budget on the basis of the vision of Brexit that the government has now agreed so and that will be covering of course actually lots of this aren't on the face of the bill because one of the other things the government is doing is arming itself with lots of powers to make the EH which actually was sort of pretty honest about this sort of possibilities and they could look at one of the scenarios which was called a moderate FTA big vested interest in us getting this right Yeah we actually Y- you need to do our job and you're not letting do our job properly So I think into company this with an economic assessment what they could look at is the government's own economic analysis published in November lost now as well as the brexit deadline looming one of the biggest current parliamentary personalities. The speaker John Berko has said step down on October the thirty first the House of Commons we'll see this more seriously is when the Obiara has to do a forecast for the budget and then we ought to see what the OPIOID did you win. MP's a considering this deal they don't have do they appropr- economic assessment from the Treasury to look at work out what the pros and cons might be no the chancellor has how many of you say how many more wicked issues nasties are locked away in there's one hundred more strong couldn't explain the concept mechanism yesterday when he yet she got it wrong when he was blind brexit by Boris Johnson. Okay we'll leave that there for now but there's plenty more to talk about we'll come back to brexit later we'll be right back can't function without speaker said we're GonNa new on quite soon afterwards but what exactly does the speaker do here's in the mix to take over after Berko steps down from the chair and how do they the economy they're saying relative to a future in which we were member of the EU but will has taken its basis government policy onto follow on from the current speakers legacy the Guardians Political correspondent Peter Walker has this report missile country you're GonNa be all of these things and actually a few percentage points on GDP or price worth paying for Brexit that you can't measure the value to democracy on her on the speaker in the most basic terms is the person chas the debates in the Commons who decides who speaks how long they can talk for but they have to duplicate lots of assessment all these focus are always received are some sort of slightly distant point ten fifteen years in the future and they don't actually say what happens in absolute terms take the view it's not the economy stupid chances view not usually you something for you here from the Treasury's it no I mean the interesting time is the next time we you and Parliament Taketh away speaker I must express by disappointment of the House has again voted for delay rather than a time next five years we sort of forecast parrot so we'll then see the official assessment of what is brexit look like people said threes may was offering a blind brexit they're now being offered an e worse than staying in the EU membership is worse than membership with the e end the customs union oh they could just take the view like such takes view that it's not about the talking bout it Julian Smith just given quite torrid session from the DP and the new long defense committee this morning most of issues that really parliament should be iterating which is when this will come to an end so I understand and I respect what the naval part is the good enough at all I'm in a position where stones are in substance the same Saturday circumstances my ruling is there for the motion will not be debated today all the matters so for example we saw John Berko earlier this week that he didn't allow the government to present meaningful vote in the brexit deal twice today Sir and look layers of six hundred and fifty different. MP's so I asked to how do they do that and you know if she's have wrong yes it's not always easy it's particularly difficult at the beginning of a new parliament which I had to do in two thousand fifteen and then again in two thousand seventeen there were a lot of new in both of those parliaments it gets much Westminster but also everything from just making sure even the catering works is this kind of astonishingly multifaceted job and almost sitting in the speaker unless they also show respect to colleagues I asked her what she thought about the currency John Berko and how it should be different oh style years also being slightly controversial in the way in which he has helped parliament hold the government to and it is true that keeping order in the chair can sometimes be a bit of a challenge but I really hope that when I have done it I've account sometimes the government gets annoyed about that sometimes not has made things rather more difficult for the government but I don't think he's wrong over the next few weeks the new speaker is going to face a lot of challenges immediately and the new speaker is going to be thrown into the depend I think having on each way that has never been discourteous or demeaning to my colleagues the occupant of the chair cont expects to gain respect he's done that he has achieved a huge amount in bringing parliament just about into the twenty th century yes his own images put up another until eventually you get one even though the process doesn't take place for a couple weeks there's been this kind of unofficial campaigning on for quite some time whatever gene deputy speaker for six years at least I have an idea how to swim I think Elena Lang is a conservative MP but like the speaker she doesn't vote the moment and she's also one of the peoples can be standing the job so I spoke to her about what she wants to do I think that mutual respect is terribly important and the clock the conservative MP who's in place as the longest continuously serving member and all the speaker candidates and there's going to be anything up to nine of them will make it is probably the smallest particle Berko steps down on October thirty first and then on November the fourth we have a special session which is chaired by the management of the Commons everything from the kind of workplace culture and John Burke with has criticism for not doing enough over kind of bullying of people who work in the process doing that one of the things I also asked about is something that I think even speaker which luckily I'm not I find difficult and that's remembering the names and faces you're two years into a new parliament I've only once notably made a mistake and then the member I had cold was and she's quite diplomatic about two obviously he's kind of work colleague but she's quite clear on what she do differently John Bracco has been an amazing speaker he set up to change the role she's one of two deputy speakers who basically fill in the role when Jim Burqa combat because obviously the common sits along time and Tom Brooker works very long hours become there every single serious with me because the member whose name I had used by mistake was twenty years older than him and he didn't think but but brief presentation to the Commons and to say what they want to get the job and then there's a series of votes is all a secret ballot and they do a series of votes eliminating apart from that I hope I haven't actually made any mistakes it's not always easy it takes a lot of concentration you have to just get the photographs of the new people apiece who is a kind of bit of Parliamentary Geek even though I think he quite happily himself he's written a two volume history of parliament I also spoke to him because he and make yourself from them when the MP's who put the hat in the ring his Kris Bryant who is labor an MP he's he's a long serving labour he wants to be speaker I love parliament itself I believe in parliamentary democracy. That's partly because when I was a child we lived in Spain under Franco so I know what to do by and the dictatorship so I believe in parliamentary democracy and I think we got some problems at the moment at the heart of that in our system at least is having an Indian endent speaker which is why I I've said hundreds of times now I want to be an empire not a player it's not about you know the speaker mouthing off Matt this the next thing it's about making sure that there is good order that there's respect across the chamber I liked to us a little bit of light gentle humor I think that means I'm able I would be able to ship feels like an in fact them when I trained to be priest I did part of that in Argentina and Chile and some of my friends had been tortured and then some of our friends into was subsequently murdered running the building in a way that is efficient and make sure that it's a safe environment for everybody to work he was basically saying that he admires look the stuff that John Burke was done for example on the substance rather than with Bernard but I just thought there was no need for long lecture from the chair so I left the room I couldn't bear it bonded chat at the kind of changing moods in the chamber which can it can change on a sixpence sometimes but I'm also determined to make sure we do better it's made me personally therapeutic is institutionally disadvantaging he's made the job his own it would be good pulled giving MP's more scope to screw tonight's the government but he was quite open about how he approaches slightly differently so I'm going to say anything now which I haven't said directly to Jones face salons done lots of good things we have a nursery in parliament which we didn't use to have we have an education center thousands more kids get visit the place we have urgent questions which mean the collection Labor have the power and the numbers to block that so what does Boris Johnson do then we're just incomplete status so there are big problems for the burdensome opinion is of the essence of politics there isn't enough combination
Can Boris wriggle out of an extension request?
"Just before we start listening to this podcast reminded that we have a special subscription he can at twelve issues with the spectator for twelve pounds as well as the twenty pound Amazon voucher the go-to. You spectator dot com forward slash voucher. If you'd like to get this offer unwelcome to coffeehouse shorts spectators this data politics podcast Hoffman I'm joined by cables and James for Saif who Boris Johnson is in Dublin this morning for talks with the shock and and the opening remarks haven't really gone in his favor James. Is that a surprise no because portable restaurants is that European leaders he does look him see a man with a vow to anyone anything near a parliamentary majority now whip having ordinary twenty-one. Tory rebels and so they'll move prepared to point school on West inclined to compromise and they would be saving that live. Radka is obviously slightly playing no deal brexit blame blame game. He's trying to say look. Don't don't think simple way to deal with this and don't let me know that brings a clean. Brexit is trying to suggest these arguments. It's going to have to go on for ages and ages natives. All you think interesting question here is what that there is some movement from the UK element. I think more interestingly from the DP on one bit of a alternative into the backstop now which is this idea of an all Ireland. SPF The ideas entries PS being sanitary so essentially cultural stuff basically the argument goes like this which is which even the DP DP MP's would accept him private. which is there are? There's actually surprisingly few areas whereas an all Ireland economy in most areas economy Noland is far more economically integrated with all UK fun. Fun Is with the Republic however the exception to that is agriculture which is genuinely does seem to be an jenny is an Orlando so what Boris Washington is essentially floating is on agriculture. Norlin would stay longer. EU rules even environment but it was not aligned with the rules in person I this is kind of acceptable to dup because there are already some way too much young terms of animal implant health the bodies one unit and treated as a different unit famous quote from impey's which is taken using touches which is your constituents and British but my cows are so you can you can see that the live Radka view is that's all well and good but only solves one of the backstop. I've culture isn't not sent full but bought. This is warranted kid. He's making more progress where it has more to it than that. Ah Knowing suggests the checks on agriculture all the moist invasive than the ones that have to be done closest to the border if if you were to combine those cultural with something like the bony a d. dramatize checks on goods that he proposed when Tris may was saying that she couldn't agree to a northern arm up you might begin to have summing. I also think that there's a there's a realism point here which is on terms of manufactured goods. It is home to believe the long scale reputable companies would involve in deliberately exporting goods that they knew were not allowed to be sold in in one jurisdiction in Tibet jurisdictions. I mean they're all barrel ways you can be in the bill but in the current UK situation what incentive does the Radka have have to compromise. I would say pretty much the yeah and I think this is essentially the view which is let's just wait and see what happens here because we could be about to have a UK you take general election that returns parliament the House majority second referendum and then everything goes up in the arrogant so I we're where we all today so let's just look at that current. UK Political Situation KT number ten have have been saying that the actions of the rebels and on Barada over the past week have wrecked that negotiating position. Do you think that's true pleasant as a blame game. I think the reality is is very hard to negotiate when you opponents if you want to call them that believe that there is an intimate general election partly because numbers have been saying that and secondly that Lou has been passed or will receive before the Senate today to say that you have to delay Brexit and request an extension a diagnosis where you could call holding all the cards in the nation on the burs Johnson Front on so much harder for number ten to do what they wanted. I didn't think to be honest when they ended number. Ten and Boris Johnson had a working majority of one off to the by election. They really sense that this was going to be plain sailing and all these rebels would ruin behind the NAS wake but what has happened means that I I think is tricky to see how these decorations are going to go in the way that they wanted a win. Boris Johnson Maverick European leaders and I think people really latched onto if if you optimist comments there where Angela Merkel said thirty days come solution it feels like the deadline has shifted again and I think this is something that repeatedly happened under Theresa Theresa May for different reasons the fact that for example would hold off on their that Cooper Rabble amendment to give her a couple of weeks and then they get another vote on it see he never really felt there was pressure up. I mean the even number ten is the only way you're going to get a solution and fresh something at the last minute that doesn't work when the last minute never never exists when the idea that you're always gonna get an extension now the some talk that Brussels could veto in extension. I still think there is an expectation that Brussels property grunt one so so I think we are in this circle which is going round in my head like a helicopter which caught land just waiting to. We're going to actually be able to have this confrontation that has been brewing for months of years which I will be eventually when we get general election. There is a report that Boris Johnson could implement the will of the Ben Bill which is to write the even Austin Extension rollercoaster writing another letter very Boris Johnson saying he doesn't want an extension extension is that going to fly for those already a debate going on about whether that would be abiding by the bill by the law and if Boris Johnson Breaking the law tearing now the report say that number tending that this is a way of Rhonda you seen. I think Charlie Falconer suggests that this wouldn't be a way around it. I think it was interesting right now. Is that if you look about the full APP from android resigning at the weekend at the moment you have Nicky Morgan writing in the Daily Mail. Today is it does seem as everyone is staying on board but I think the next point of tension is going to be whether or not Boris Johnson's deemed to be breaking the law. We do that we can. Njit Robert Buckland coming out and actually saying that he wasn't going to resign because he had a conversation with Boris Johnson about the importance of the law now that sounds like a strange strange situation that and so I think that he does understand the little the prime minister and you can start to see have I think that would be the next breaking point on this and I think as full what actually planning I think tonight we are going to be getting another vote. We expect on a general election. I think that there is an effort didn't expectation that worked. Try and point out to opposition parties and Emmys a this could be a last chance to get general election before he wants to stop and no deal that the public decide because we are going to try some things you don't expect so. I think there's a pressure Ataman. Yes Jones Dominic. Cummings has reportedly told people that those who are cross with his tactics up to this point. We'll melt when they discover what's going to happen in the next few weeks short of him moving the earth closer to the son. What do you think he's got planned female very keen to find some alternative to either requesting the extension or resigning. I mean the problem with the the plan outlined on the front of the Daily Telegraph is the one senior cabinet minister said to me in the current political circumstance the E. U. Is going to grant an extension hybrid. It's requested I Saturday's Times revealed the sheer extent of cooperation between these rebel. MP's and the European Union and I think what what would be quite clear what e- You grow all natural extension is they would know that a general election it's coming so from the point of view it's no particular harm and granting short extension see what the general election results. If general elections that bronze combat for majority you can say right the extensions running out. We're not giving you enough once. You've you've ever going to accept the deal. We're offering all leave deal. If you came back to the parliament that was more remain inclined to lean the second referendum. You could say take the time. You need to have that vote. I mean that's being issue. I think if it comes down to it I mean bortles may do much better to resign them to request extension because I think that he has made it. He's saying that he's not going to request a six engined. Ramadan and ditch and he's also said he wants to leave the I I think he resigned. I cannot takes out of the EU despite all my efforts was parliament is blocking me that I think would be something that voters would be moonlight want to stand and they wouldn't view this as yet another broken promise on Brexit okay do you most of the hostility in Westminster has been between the Tories and and ex Taurean piece. You were kicked out of the party last week but there's there's also a lot of <hes> aggravation towards another much less recently acts Tori. MP Speaker John Berko who the Tories and now going to stand against the threatening in his seat of backing which is not normally what happens with the speaker the other parties what he's normally stand down. Yes I think this is another example of defying convention but then again. I think you better really cut from Your Cup of tea in the morning when when hit someone is doing that these days the Tories plan to run a candidate against Becker there has been some outrage about this move from people who like John Berko from opposition. MP's Oatman think no matter what using John Burkett is very hard to argue that he is a neutral speaker. If you look at what happened in like the bullying reports where it was at that you need to remove sat and people in senior positions to completely change the culture you actually had labor. MP's yet Margaret Becker basically say that the the reason that they were going to keep John Back in place rather than go along any attempts to move him was because the brexit trumped some things so there was a sense he works in the favor with the Tories and anyway standing hundred got Strom Becca. I think he looked at the voters. The Conservative Party are aiming at they will probably already be fatty sense. Jump back has made it more difficult for them on Brexit. The jumbo has caused many problems and I think it's just another side of the direction. The conservative savage party is going in because if you think about I suppose previous times twenty ten twenty fifteen if you think about a Lib Dem Tory voters now. I think there might might be some he would think ooh. That's a bit much but ultimately everything we can telephone number ten so far in Boris. Johnson's positioning is going full voters he afraid to leave and that is the first priority and I think most voters register even feel passionate about brexit feel passionate. Perhaps about John Burke but in a negative way thank you Katie and thank you James and you can listen to this podcast an owner of the cost on ice chain store and please do send us your lovely feedback. Even if you don't quite know what our names teams are our podcast email addresses cost spectator Keta. Thanks for listening.
The Evening Briefing: Wednesday February 5
"Good evening I'm Chris. Price with the briefing from the Telegraph bringing you up to speed. In two minutes is Wednesday February. The fifth and British passengers have revealed. Their ordeal being quarantined on corona virus. Cruise ship it was six thirty in the morning. When the voice of the captain came over the speakers of the luxury redeemed princess. The message told all passengers to head to their cabins immediately and said they should remain there for fourteen days. The ruling came from from the Japanese health authorities after fourteen passengers on the cruise ship. Tested Positive Corona virus is left three thousand seven hundred people on lockdown in the Japanese port of Yokohama. Nicholas Smith has an interview with two British holidaymakers on board. Since then another cruise ship has been docked in Hong Kong S. passengers on board attested and it comes the scientists in UK. Think they've made a significant breakthrough in the race to develop a vaccine. Francesca Marshall. Well has the details. You may have heard former black rod. David Leakey this morning expressing his views on a potential peerage for John Berko but but his disapproval claiming the former speaker would at times fly into a rage has sparked a controversy involving demand. Abbott Labour's shadow home secretary tweeted. It was unlikely unlikely. Mr Leakey would have been bullied by Mr Berko. Why she said it's because he served in the Military Danielle Sheridan details what. MP's think of her comments and if you're planning to do anything outdoors this weekend you might want to think again. The Met Office is warning. Britain will be battered by winds of up to eighty miles per hour from storm. Kira forecasters revising people to keep their mobile phones charged because the windy weather could bring down. Power Lines Jimmy. Johnson has everything you need to now right. Stay put if you're listening on. What apple send you those links. Now if you're listening on spotify apple or wherever you get your podcast you'll find them in the show notes as well as links is to stunning pictures of the wreckage of a plane crash in Istanbul. Where amazingly there have been no fatalities and with Donald Trump set to be acquitted in his impeachment trial? This evening. Read how how. American politics has become increasingly polarized. That sits you up to date more from Danny tomorrow morning.
Boris Johnson denied second vote on Brexit deal.
"Northeast Syria City pelt departing US troops UK Speaker Denies Boris Johnson Second Vote On brexit coming up on five minute years residents inequality health and climate delivering honest verified and truthful World News daily October Twenty one I'm Anthony Davis angry fighters leave Boris Johnson has been denied the opportunity to hold approval from Johnson's last minute deal until the legislation enacting it had been implemented that then forced the government to comply with the requirements of the northeastern city of commercially according to video by the Kurdish news agency the video showed people pelting vehicles with potatoes and shouting no American the US withdrawal residents of a Kurdish dominated Syrian city hold potatoes at departing American military vehicles as they drove by today the scene encapsulates the Kurds feeling of betrayal and added a new indignity to a US withdrawal that has been rushed and sore several close brushes abandoning the allied Kurdish back fighters ahead of Turkey's invasion the Kurdish led force was a key ally in the long and bloody fight that eventually with Turkish backed forces the Kurds was stunned when Donald trump two weeks ago abruptly decided to pull US troops out of Border Areas Ben Act and send a letter to the e U Twenty-seven requesting a delay Brexit had Johnson one vote today the letter could have been rescinded but no deal brexit and allow more time for parliament to scrutinize the withdrawal agreement they amended the government's motion to say MP's would withhold their like rats. America is running away one man shouted in Arabic at a convoy of armored vehicles flying American flags passing down an avenue in the the second vote on his brexit deal in the House of Commons off to the speaker John Berko ruled that it would be repetitive and disorderly Berko said brought down the Islamic state groups rule over northeastern and eastern Syria the US troops near the border were seen by the Kurds as insurance that Turkey would would break long standing conventions for MP's to debate and vote on the agreement struck in Brussels last week little more than two days after Saturday's historic the boarder handing it over to Turkish control a senior Kurdish official reduce Khalil said today his forces are complying with the agreement one of the vehicles reverse down the street and over a sidewalk a several people walked off through it shaking their fists in the Air and shouting insults not attack after being abandoned by US forces the Kurds agreed to a ceasefire deal brokered by Washington that requires them to leave a swathe of territory alone Northern Ireland is set to decriminalise abortion and set the stage sitting the government was defeated on Saturday by a Cross party group of MP's led by the former Tory cabinet minister Oliver Letwin seeking to avoid the risk of legislation of same sex marriages as of midnight bringing its laws in line with the rest of the UK this is happening because British lawmakers plans despite having reluctantly being compelled to send a letter asking for an extension to article fifty which Boris Johnson childishly review Berko said that did not in itself constitute a change in circumstances significant enough to justify a fresh consideration of the government's Brexit I used to sign his government still hopes to push the legislation necessary to enact brexit through parliament in time to meet the October thirty first deadline and are preparing to complete the withdrawal he called for an international mechanism to protect Kurdish civilians who want to stay in their towns off the Kurdish lead a- and America liar in
The sting in John Bercow's resignation
"Just before we start listening to this podcast reminded that we have a special subscription offer he can at twelve issues with the spectator for twelve pounds as well as the twenty pound Amazon voucher the go-to. You spectator dot com forward slash voucher. If you'd like to get this offer hello and welcome to coffeehouse shorts aspartame aged eighty and these days Davey today. I'm joined by chance aside for an Jason Stein. Special Advice left a in the twentieth Friday. Just suck leaving Saturday evening designed now. We've had a morning post. Oh cost ready but looking forward. The Big News in Westminster. Carton is the fact that jump back the have common speaker has said that he will not be seeking reelection that he is going to stand stand down as speaker and he's given to dates if MP's vote for a general election tonight as the government hopes will do he will resign immediately if if they refused to do that he will stay on to thirty fast October James in number ten ligament popping out the champagne. I've been a stay in the tail burqa announcing because no one expects house going to vote for an election tonight and it's highly likely the house comes can so we don't have the thirty first. I bought means that the newspeak would be chosen by this house. I'm this House of Commons is into again pick because this house is obsessed with Brexit more than any other topic comes is again likely to pick an activist remains speaker now obviously Boris Johnson were defining election winning thumping majority of the <hes> the speaker would would be a minor irritant to him. It's the hung parliament that is given Berko so much power an opportunity the defense but I the government will probably have preferred for book of simply just stood down when the election came meaning but the speaker will be Chosen Avenue House of Commons Jason. Your former boss amber rod some he's referred to jump back as an active speaker use of workplace if the One Nation Cokes Focus Group of conservative. MP's tend not take the same approach to Johnson on Brexit. Do you think there is some conservative. MP's who'd be sad to see John Burke ago absolutely John Burke has always been a thorn in the side of the government really and I think they will be James said desperate thousand comments to get someone like Harry Hormone where she'd be available someone like that who will take the same approach to for straightening the government and frustration brexit frustration convention Osberg dead. I think it will be quite something anyone to match the lengths that John Berko has gone to say but they wouldn't have to match them because he is now creating precedent yes in the the way the the way the British system works berries now precedent for the next week the next week. You won't have to change the rules next week. We'll just say well as as as happened previously and I think actually one of the great tragedies of John Burke is and this is a highly unlikely scenario to vote but let's imagine that Brussels and came back with a majority which is a a slight structure in the moment and then even even biggest rush a big enough majority to do what he wanted. I think if I was a Tory majority of fifty plus which is we get into the realms of highly unlikely the first act because of Berko the first act of government or the first actively government our strong majority is going to be applying speaker in evacuating because Berko GEICO has basically so expanded the powers of the speaker by any government with a big majority is going to say right. We want someone who's just going to be on and do our staff off will do it straight away when the House Commons comes back and the hope but new did acted. MP's will be more inclined to defer to executive. I mean I I think the what John Tuck has done for. Speakership is absolute tragedy because you could argue about the exactly more sponsored palm. You can only give it the balance it's that poems had ceased to be the copy of nation that too much stuff was happening in the newspapers raw than in the Commons chamber you can make all of those cases on Huntington thirty to all of them but what the market has made the role so point is on in how it is conceived. He's never come on procedure. He's never surprised anyone finding procedure in suddenly suddenly breakfast favor which nobody expected has he and I think he's from. I also think there was a massive problem which is when. MP's said we're going to leave on buck in place despite the Cox report into bullying what it said about beneath an urgent need for new leadership because breakfast is more important I mean not just an absolutely awful message but essentially these issues all minor compared to these big questions of state and I mean that I mean that was a very bad message to send. CHANC- thinking charity will be restored good. I mean it's very hard to see how neutrality is restored because this is what's so tragic at the office. We live in highly polarized times right. Whatever the result of that action the next ex government is going to be a fairly polarizing government I would suspect and because he has made the office pointers on Vats not going to be getting that neutrality back doc once lost is going to take a very long time now on the subject of an early election Jason you set the cat among the pigeons today and an interview prior to this interfered. I didn't worry want the first which she suggested that there's been polling in number title polling number ten seen which are desolate whether an election did tweets are actually lose seats. Can you tell me about that. Yeah I mean I'm surprised at this because firstly polling as potentially be pointing out. Is that be beaten. This is is a projection of what would happen if election took place under the current circumstances in the current conditions as we know elections and campaigns completely change polling that was done prior to this shows number ten no that we are going to lose a party seats in areas that we he picked up in two thousand fifteen because our message simply does not work in its current format in areas that David Cameron took from the Lib Dem's and band is to say I'm. I'm surprised that number ten onto the pushing more the fact that they will be able to outperform this on the key to that of course he's talks you get the election election first place. I think number Tan will still be able to manufacture an election in people versus. The establishment people versus parliament conditions. I think they will be able to do that and do you think that the Conservative Party party in its current trajectory so appetizing. It's leave credentials can make up for the seats. They use just released. I think those people say you name places like Scotland Metropolitan Areas Skeptical about a to have what I call a Bolsover I approach it didn't work in two thousand seventeen although it would be done on steroids in twenty nineteen. I'm not convinced there are forty to forty five areas of this country desperately waiting to vote conservative that have never vote conservative before but frankly I'm waiting to be proved wrong. Theresa May in two thousand seventeen much much week accompanied too much week. A message was able to win areas like stoke on Cleveland in these areas so theresa may can do boardrooms do a better job of it James in your son call them at the weekend he wrote. It's about how one of the reasons that there is a sense of unease in the conservative party at the moment even if a number ten they're very focused is ministers and MP's. Don't not necessarily feel like understand the strategy in terms of the seats. They're going to pick up. Do you think it is is becoming clearer. We can expect more clarity over the coming days. The number turns Rushdie is essentially to run the twenty seventeen strategy better. They've got so much better. Campaign intrigues may not gonNA come up with Dolph. Manifesto has lots of e agrees proposals easels in that people don't like and this time unlike in twenty seventeen brexit forget the phrase but is clearly endanger is quite clear. The mind joined the Tories do not win a majority or do not win a majority in combination with the DUP brexit ain't going to happen because you are in a situation where the best result also break stay could hope from from the next parliament would be a second referendum and it would be a second referendum wave votes for sixteen yards votes. EU nationals you name it all these things stacked act into the deck to try and ensure of the result returned was remain so in a way but is your message honey number ten is a twin track strategy of in those Labor leave seats rates. BREXIT's endanger the establishment trying to steal it from me. You've got to go out and vote for again and by way same time. Have you seen all spending review winnowed party. We're going to spend more money on the jess. We're GONNA spend put more money into your Oh kids school. We're going to put more police on the beat clamp down on crime then I've an attempt to hold onto those seats vote which have harmed portion of <unk> remain voters. Tori voices award about no deal is essentially to say this election is about whether you want Boris Johnson Attorney Corbyn Prime Minister and you might think no deal is going to be economically disruptive even but have you thought about how economically disruptive Corwin government is going to be and remember that the coping governs economic disruption. It is easier to make the personal to people because it's going to come in the form of increased taxes on you personally. That's claimed to wear number ten looking. I think thing is getting to a majority. The Paul is hard. I was looking to one poster whose judgment I respect act. He said they'd run the numbers and giving the essentially the tourist the Tory stretches essentially sees them full back to probably about two ninety and then they've got a basically he come back up. We're not going to find the gains to get back over the hill. They're all a few ladies which are quite easy pickings with small majorities where the Labor rampage standing down essentially indicates that confident of holding onto the seat. This posed was saying that they'd run for they worked out where they fall things were and they come up with tourism. The DP combined free shorts from majority and that person was assuming that essentially number ten campaign framing what so getting a majority is going to be hard having one of the reasons why two of the reasons amber rudd resigned from the from the gum and she objected to being taken away from twenty one tory. MP's one of the reasons number Tan belt where they had to do that is they think that if they win a majority it's going to be a slim one and they cannot tolerate a situation where they win a majority and then they come back and end up in the same situation that they are now because they have fifteen to twenty two ramp up saying well actually on not with you on Brexit so I'm going to vote with the oppositional not one on this why the Labour moderates are absolutely mad not to be taking on Corden because in an election in the produces results similar to what you diagnose James Coalition talks are dead on arrival. If Jeremy Corbyn is the man who who was the replacement minster but this is what I mean this is what I would criticise about the twenty one Tory rebels and amber rudd to be frank which is British politics politics. Essentially this is the choice choice Boris Johnson Attorney Gordon and you pay your money. You takes the choice this whole idea. There isn't some magical third way auction. I Eh people aren't going to get to suddenly make somebody else. Prime Minister in it is however fracture of politics is I find it very very hard to imagine that someone someone who isn't either the leader of the Conservative Party over Labor Party would be the prime minister after general election now talking about Casey prison focus about scenarios where someone's going to be prime minister for three or four day. Maybe that could be someone who's not believe if we can so it's not I doubt even that but the idea that you're going to have a long-term occupant of number number ten who is not believable. Conservative Party not believable party strikes me slightly for the birds and I think people who own reflect on that aren't being serious. Now finally parliament will be provoked night. The government have announced and that means that poem suspended for several weeks before returning mid October before we get that there every few plans the opposition. MP's have in mind given the brochures and doesn't have a working majority and one is a humble address. Try and get the communications on no deal between several special advisers and politician James what they're trying to do here trying to Barris the government. They essentially want to show that. Perogie was about brexit not about according speech. I even have argument that they can then say that Boris Johnson has misled the house because he said it was about Queen Speech Rollin about Brexit. This claim is in this Hubbard is audacious to say the least it is essentially seeking everybody's private messages whatsapp Taliban especially the C. exactly it does remind me of a story that one special adviser before Jason's time told me that he was used to read the reports on terrorism some cases because he found that the ways they found communicating an untraceable ways but very useful. He's what's on the web. Having a geometric you never actually sent the g mail but you let other people look into it and and read it in the draft but there was never any record of it actually having been said so. I would be surprised if this address were succeed and I think again. There's even a suggestion that transport cost comes but it's too much even for John Burkett even John Burqa would regard granted this one. I was having this again this humble the address the very bad precedent government legal advice. I think there is a justification for the government keeping that confidential sure I mean this is a kind of again David. This is particularly sensible situation Jason. You've very recently been in government. This is an attempt to get hold of what Zaps of various communications. How'd you think you would if this had happened to you if it was on my work phone I can tell you that thing thing is was only ever used a torch. It was never used to communicate so I would say if the rebels trying to get hold of people's phones have not specified whether they personal or work votes. I'd say the stuff is could get round that by hunting in the workfare which will be completely clean because no one does anything on those as for handing ending in personal fans. I wouldn't want my what's up history. Necessarily read out to the House of Commons buzz. James says loads of the trick nice ways to get around these things confirmed sources and methods shouldn't be discussed by intelligence agents. It will wind up this podcast episode. We make it much harder to do our job. Thank you James. Thank you Jason <music>.
Tuesday 10 September
"You're listening to the briefing first broadcast on the tenth of September two thousand and nineteen on monocle twenty four the briefing is brought to you in partnership with Rolex. Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you live from studio one here Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Miller coming up. It will be hard to deny that John Berko pompous man but he's also stuck up for parliament`shall. Britain's democracy the UK is Combative Speaker of the House announces his resignation. How mischievous is the timing wing also ahead. We'll look at some of the other pressing issues in UK politics that have been swept aside by the all consuming brexit juggernaut when the prime minister just to finally older and inquiry into Islamophobia within the Conservative Party something which he promised on national television later in the show will ask what Iran hopes to gain from doing exactly what it said it wouldn't will assess the chances of the American presidential contenders does trying to unwholesome donald trump from within his own party and the excruciating near success of India's latest Luna mission all that coming up right here on the briefing bring on local twenty four and welcome to today's edition of the briefing with me. Andrew Muller the UK's Parliament Element has begun. It's five weeks suspension which is obviously fine as there's nothing much else. All that important going on the House of Commons made the most of its last night however sitting until nearly two a. m. some indeed quite a lot of that time was consumed by the speaker of the House John Berko. Indulging tributes is to his own sagacity upon the announcement of his resignation. There was also an amount of singing and bitching about an election which the government wants but claims not all too and the opposition doesn't want but claims to here first of all is monocle twenty-fourth Paul Osborne making what sense can be made of any of this. It's thirty years years since TV. Cameras were first allowed into the House of Commons. Straightaway was obvious the speaker was box office gold John Berko is the fourth common speaker of the TV age by some margin the most divisive to his admirers. One of the great reforming speakers to one critic has stupid sanctimonious dwarf he has it is fair to say a unique style exceptionally boisterous fellow and in the course of your boisterous interest behavior at ups could chew some gum. Parliament has its own often very odd ways and John Burke certainly played to the crowd the need for the honorable member dues breach chanter all hoy ask from US secretary betty eccentric behaviour the sort of thing I would ever have done as a backbencher Cheryl Trump Berko entered parliament twenty two years ago very much on the right wing of the conservative party but his politics slowly became more socially the speaker he formerly has no party loyalty but critics short. He's batting for the opposition especially on brexit time and again he sided with the opposition against the government's making it easier for opponents of a new deal brexit to have their say it eventually became known as the Berko doctrine. If we always abide by precedent. He said nothing would ever change. I'm old has changed onto John Berko. The Commons is a more modern maltin workplace but he also faces as yet unresolved on a Gatien's of bullying. It will be hard to deny that John Berko is a pompous man but he's also also stuck up for parliament's role in Britain's democracy ministers are routinely hold into the Commons to account for themselves and that is largely down to him in going now. He is trying to to make sure that this anti no deal parliament chooses his successor not the perhaps more pro brexit wall may follow. We degrade this the parliament our peril. He's not going quietly and be on Tuesday morning. The Arcane in process of proroguing or suspending parliament began a highly controversial five-week suspension and peas summoned to the House of Lords but speak Berko Co did not move this is not a standard or normal per Gatien represents not just in the minds of many colleagues but huge numbers of people outside an active exude eventually he went along with the suspension of parliament but it was was an act of open political revolt against the government from a man who is meant to be impartial. This has been let me put it explicitly the greatest privilege an honor of my professional life for which I will be eternally grateful. It's fair to say a lot of conservative. MP's at least will be glad to see the back of him from Oracle in London. I'm Paul Osborne thank you you pull and I'm joined now by Lance Price Foam Director of communications for former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair Lance. We will come back to John Berko and his legacy Z. presently but just last night as an example of parliamentary theater how we'd was it and it was very weird. It was pretty irrelevant. Actually was a demonstration of summon piece continuing theory of the fact that the house will be sitting so the next five five weeks at but it didn't amount to very much there have been demonstrations of this soap before some people might think it was a little bit childish a bit light so the student politics but I get the impression the burqa itself is actually quite enjoying it the fact that they were trying to sort of hold him in position say that the house wouldn't rise medicals it had to arise because they have no choice on this at least at the executive and the prime minister held the cards. How significant is his resignation not just the fact of it but the timing of it. He says you'll go on October thirty first which is of course supposed to be brexit day except of course for the fact that now it apparently apparently can't be but we'll also get to that yeah. I think the timing of it is more significant than the facts of it in the we knew that he was gonna go soon. He had said that he addu nine years. He's now ten so it was it was always a question of when the weather at of course by going down as your report earlier are indicated means the current parliament will elect the new speaker and that significant because we know that there is an anti at Komo deal majority in current parlance and and who knows what the next parliament will look like so I think in terms of his legacy and in terms resolve electing a speaker who liked him will stand up for parliament against the executive. I think he sold that. This was probably the best time to do it. Well one of the last things this is parliament did of course was passed this law which means that if Boris Johnson the prime minister cannot secure withdrawal agreement. He is obliged to ask the U four another extension rather than taking the country out without a deal on October thirty first. What do we think Johnson is actually likely to do when and or if the crunch comes. I don't think anyone knows that and I'm not even sure Boris. Johnson knows it to be frank. There are still at five six before that crucial summit in the middle of up Tober and and a lot could happen in that time the mood music coming out of the Dublin yesterday when the prime minister met the Irish prime minister it's the first time was very much that he's looking for a deal and of course if he gets a deal and then all these guns in parliament fall by the wayside wayside provided that deal can get through the House of Commons so his first option and I think he has to be taken at his word on this is his preferred option has to be to gotta deal because that way he can go to the country will be a general election he can go to the country savings delivered on Brexit at now I wouldn't put anything past I him and his advisors in trying to find ways of getting round that legislation that was passed at all sorts of different suggestions have been made as to how he might do do that but if he can't get a deal. I don't think he's going to take it lying down and SIP. deseo parliament says they'll have to offer these stages so I will just as a final thought how oh united. Do you think what remains of the conservative benches are likely to be behind Boris Johnson at this point because I think it's fair to say he's he's parliamentary career as prime minister is not after a glorious start in fact if I think I've done the math right. He's now lost more votes in six weeks than your former boss. Tony Tony Blair did in ten years something like that yes and that's not a fantastic record which is why he wants to get rid of this parliament's but of course he is now going to start going around the country for the next five weeks when parliament isn't sitting talking about all the things he wants to do on the domestic agenda about the health service about police about the Kassovitz in and and education and the sense. I'm afraid for the people of this country. The general election campaign starts now is going to be a very long campaign and and on those issues I think he will have the conservative party behind him. Because on those issues he's got to present himself as a one nation liberal conservative of the salt that could bring all wins the Tory Party together. It's on the it's only on the brexit issue that the fishers run deep but of course it is parliament does come back those fissures the will matter. GOTCHA lines price. Thanks as always for joining us. You're listening to the briefing now with a look at the day's headlines here is models. Daniel Beach Thank you Andrew. Donald Trump has said talks with the Taliban are in his words dead. The president called off negotiations between his administration the Taliban and Afghan leadership planned for Camp David over the weekend and following a suicide bomb Campbell last week that killed an American soldier. They thought that that killed people in order to put themselves in a little better negotiating position were they did that. They killed twelve people. What happened to be a great American soldier. Trump has said a planned troop withdrawal could still move ahead without assigned peace deal but with fears of renewed violence ahead of the Afghan election later this month the commander in charge of the US military has said operations will ramp up in Afghanistan to combat an increase in Taliban attacks Hong Kong's embattled leader Carrie. Lam has said interference in the city state's affairs by foreign parliaments is quote deeply bleat regrettable. The beijing-backed leader was speaking after more violence in the city which she said would not help to solve social issues in Hong Kong thousands thousands of demonstrators rallied outside the US consulate over the weekend calling for help in bringing democracy to the Chinese World City and India says it has made contact contact with the spacecraft it was trying to land on the moon but has yet to establish communication with the lander. The Indian Space Research Organisation said the craft made a controlled landing ending near the South Pole of the moon on Saturday when it lost contact with ground control. We'll have more on India's space ambitions later in the program. Those are the day's headlines. Now Back to you Andrew thanks Daniel. Let's get the latest business headlines now. I'm joined by you and pots at Bloomberg. You and we start with we we work. The flexible office types that torquing of postponing their share offering Andrea is a fascinating business and Goldman Sachs early this year talking about the valuation of sixty five billion dollars for where we work but now Bloomberg on the stance that the companies under discussions with its largest investor Softbank Japan about postponing its share offering altogether now that valuation number has been coming down in recent months. There's been talk that it could be as low as twenty billion dollars but but Softbank is not happy with that they've plowed ten billion dollars into we work and if valuation coming down then Softbank we'll end up writing down some of that investments now we haven't come across we work then you need to walk around some of the most expensive parts of many of the world's biggest cities in London. We've got UH lots and lots of branches. If we work they offer flexible office space for workers on for small companies and people who work on their own are they very plush a lot of their customers thinker the businesses fantastic driven by one man Adam Newman. It's he runs with. I kind of got like back control of the company. It's a real company with real character but it is a company that says yet to make any money in the first six months of this year. It lost nearly seven hundred million dollars bringing its total losses to almost three billion dollars over the past three years. The problem for investors is that the company buys and takes on long leases on property but so customers inevitably take on quite short term agreements with Softbank an honest report. Just I out recently says that the company is going to need seven billion dollars over the next four years to see through its cash flow negative period and that could be a lot worse if we hit a recession session so very interesting that the company could be putting off a sheriff ring Fennell and moving seamlessly along on the subject of companies companies with gold like CEO figures. Alibaba bar is going to have to find a way to live without Jack. Ma Yes fascinating rags-to-riches story. John was English teacher just twenty years ago when he founded Alibaba which of course is China's biggest internet company. He's stepping down today from his role as has executive chairman with a fortune just under forty two billion dollars that makes him the second richest person on the planet he started. I started the business I work out of his apartment twenty years ago and he's built a really phenomenal business with worth four hundred and sixty billion dollars taken on Ebay and Amazon operates on the world's largest cloud computing businesses. It also runs a logistics network that delivers millions of parcels every day. He became the richest man in Asia in two thousand sixteen and since taking over as executive chairman six years ago Alibaba's revenue surged more than one one thousand percents but today he's stepping down and he's going to focus on his philanthropic endeavors so as you say more stepping back from Alibaba you and thoughts. Thanks for joining us. You're listening to the briefing coming soon monocle. Rolex bring you the pioneers the Pioneers Brand new series that tells the stories of people improving the planet. You'll hear how rolex suppose innovators with whom they share a passion to safeguard in the F- future generations gain precious insight into the fresh thinking that is disrupting received wisdom for the better and learn how Phyllis action continues to be the crucial driver change the pioneers coming soon twenty four. You are listening to the briefing with me Andrew. It's time now to take a longer. Look at the day's big stories with our news panel which today is is Tom. Edwards monocle twenty four executive producer and Hussain Fani journalist editor and producer and author of the new book follow me Arche the online world of British Muslims well. Let's stick with the United Kingdom and not just in the interest of using that name while we still can where we basically are right now. Is this in fifty one days the UK UK is due to leave the European Union however it is now against the law for the prime minister not to request an extension in the absence of some sort of withdrawal rule deal four four very far from the first time during this fiasco it feels like the UK is trying to make its way around some Esha- designed obstacle course it is obviously a bit soon in proceedings to start apportioning historical judgments but we are not this Tuesday lunchtime going to let that stops Tom. First of all we were talking about John Berko. The outgoing speaker at the top of the program widely regarded. I think to have had a good brexit. Has Anybody else you invite not me to play the blame Game Andrew. I think burqas done rather well. It is pretty difficult to say the same about many other key protagonists in the in the houses of parliament. I must admit when it was put to me. This was going to be a thing today. I was invited to play brexit limbo don shoes but there's really nothing funny. Ah about I think what's good about Berko is he has unashamedly attempted to facilitate what he sees as in principle the best course of Action Kboi shaping where he can the machinations of parliament to deliver a better outcome a least worst option and I find the vilification he suffered confusing and yet unsurprising because that is the job that he is there to do now. I know some of his critics have said this is the first step towards a politicization of the the speakership such as we have in the US nothing that would be a very bad development. I think the problem is that it seems likely from here on whoever follows him in that role is probably going to be a more neutral more muted figure and I think that's regrettable at a time when whatever happens from here on in this brexit which will come to the role of the speaker as the arbiter of the parliament's day-to-day functioning is going to be absolutely critical his attempted to ask you the opposite question I who has had Patten notably bad breaks it but we are unfortunately limited for time doesn't strike you though that this has been a test which has revealed and Nisa leading question how extraordinarily mediocre or incapable a lot of our politicians are I think for many years the United Kingdom's being quite an easy country to being impe in and all of a sudden. They've been asked to do something difficult yeah. I think this is like it's a really extraordinary moment because I think with like and as a kind of Brexit the has almost lingered on a what we've seen is like and a memorable parliaments like the thing that is supposed to function within the parliament was supposed to be the example of the world like how it's kind of breaking paw and how these things that maybe we took for granted in terms of how parliament works how because I think these problems outwit kind of very evident now whether that's in terms of like talking about safe seats or if we're talking about like people being parachuted insulate particular political roles like things that we kind of accepted for a long time now all of a sudden they become a problem because Brexit is such a polarizing issue so I who of wonder whether it's more a perception by is now is more of an illusion but is now kind of being seen for what it is rather than a formerly very well-functioning in parliament like very falling apart told me there's something to be said for it in that sense in the in the way that I I've made the case before that there's a it's possible supposed to argue that Donald Trump's presidency is overdue stress test for America's institutions is it possible to look at Brexit in that way as far as the UK's institutions go. I think it's certainly possible to look at in that way. I struggle to to buy into that narrative. I think what's interesting to reflect on. What you've both just said is that actually these imperfections wins have long been visible and even if you come to something where seems to be broadly public support the for example the progression is a bad idea. Joe Major did the same thing repeatedly short-term political expediency China avoid scrutiny various. Tori misdeeds back in back in the ninety s these fishers have always as being there. I think it's unfortunate. The I mean you'd have to go back to probably probably the mid to late nineteen seventy s fun time when you had this meeting of critical public problems with fallibilities in the effective functioning of parliament and I think that's why it's it's regrettable and we'll come on in a minute the real negative impact this is having on you know the and I used in speech marks issues that affect people in the country because because of this stasis because of the inertia in parliamentary process really significant very long term damage can be being done to things where you we can. Ill Afford it before education health service etc.. We'll come to that in a second but I think it's that meeting of the critical issue of the day being so divisive and these fishers being being exposed in a way they haven't before has seen three years into this nonsense. There's also a generational subtexts that wasn't there three years ago which is basically varies now well that generation voters born in the twenty first century which is as old as I am as a terrifying there but they have not been asked a Niagara. They are of course the people who will have to live longest with this. I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of the youth of Great Britain but but nevertheless the less. You're the you're the closest closest at this table we have to is it. Your sense that there is a that's something that has not yet been properly league factored in an and my voice heard whenever this election happens yes and no I think it's less to like I think some people posing this question. Well young you know people people who are now eligible to vote at one before like either like the low end of millennium like the low end of being Gen Z. that kind of gray or if they have asked about brexit. I think that actually the question. There's a much bigger thing at play which is about like this is a this generation has grown up like they've kind of grown growing up at a time of real kind of political polarity and like to a degree like radicalism as well so them like Berisha's on just about like the feature of Britain being in the European Union bought. It's also about being under like a Tory government for you know the whole political experience being under a Tory government and but he's like fishes when we talk about about country like has seen kind of historic level of inequality you know the things that really angry about anything to do with like NHS to like mental mental health gaps to things like you know legally a lack of access to legal aid grenfell being like a big thing in terms of you know how that conversation is shaped. How like pulpy if you'd like housing that poor people live in as well as just like general stuff about how they're gonNA live in terms of the you know again like not being able to afford like houses like no maybe not being support education so during these free as a lot of like issues of kind of come up which I think lots of people work news media and in politics they have been like pushed aside. I'm because we look at just like the Brexit theater in fact. There's all these other things are in play which contribute to that conversation this younger generation. It's like much more chain team. We will come to those other issues presently before we do that tomorrow. I want to ask you a question which transparently sets up next point of discussion and also will enable you to despair the internal intellectual machinations of the British public which is something enjoy a are- YouGov poll published just showed that fifty five percent of Tory voters and sixty percent of Lee voters think that no deal would mean a clean break which which would mean the country could focus on other things I mean I is truly staggering isn't it. I mean all jokes aside. Whatever your own politics on this. It is literally impossible to believe that unless you know absolutely nothing well they go. This is the other thing that's been exposed as this staggering bring deep rooted ignorance of certain key parts of public life. I mean I mentioned I think this program or others twenty four hundred this fact that what is the e U so you know the most googled phrase in the UK the ofter decisive referendum vote. It was interesting to pick up saying about you know this this long period of Ah Tory government to my political memory you know I grew up in the eighty s and ninety s when that was a real you know era defy it was an epoch of torey governmental power and there was a significant recalibration of the political landscape through the mid nineties started by John Smith and and sort of finished by effectively but Tony Blair who you secured than this long period of Labor Labor government. Could that be one Raya of light here that maybe there's a recalibration. It's pick up on those teams. I knew talking about that. There aren't binary solutions to these problems and actually sleep. Fragmentation politics could be a good thing. Can we finally get point where we're issue lead with how people cast their votes make their decisions and we may see you know that that could draw people back to the center because you have to be a bit more pragmatic expedient about how you might your personal decisions but let's move on and slightly if not wistfully on that focus on other things idea and gratefully embrace a parallel universe in which the two thousand sixteen referendum was either not called or went the other way and the UK has been able to spend the last three years doing something other than wasting copious quantities of time energy and money to come up with something which might if we're incredibly lucky leave a slightly we're off than we already were the UK was not without problems before twenty sixteen of course but how many of the might of been solved by now or ameliorated one one voice who has managed to break through the Brexit Din was ten months seeing daisy MP demanding the prime minister apologize for his previous Islamophobic comments comments Mr Speaker. If I decide to wear a turban or you decide to wear a cross or he decides to wear a Kipah Skullcap or she decides to wear a Hijab Burqa. Does that mean that it is open season for right honorable members of this house to make derogatory and divisive remarks about our parents for those devos who from a young age had to endure and face up to being called names such as tower or Taliban all coming from Bongo Bongo land we can appreciate Cornwell phone well the hurt and pain felt by already vulnerable Muslim women when they are described as looking at bank robbers letterboxes all those points about Boris Johnson's journalistic knocker belt have been made before doubtless will be again but that speech cut through the Brexit Rex didn't why do you think I think partly because it was not anything to do with Brexit and it was nothing simple and I think also like you know we talk about. Is there going to be like a new you you know. recalibration of sorts. I think about is the fact that you've got Labor government or you've got like a bench here. like some like one of the most diverse benches inches that we've seen in a long time so bs other she's and by isn't just do if like racism Islamophobia also to do with like social housing is all set to do with Welfare like these issues are like things bat these groups of MP's who are often come from marginal communities and people of color like vis-a-vis issues that they acted on so. It's something that they're thinking about and also thinking about. We'll put in a post brexit environment gods. What about looks like like you know. What things do I want to achieve and I think this is where new conversations are kind of starting to break for the Tom and do you have a wistful wish list of things that you would prefer the UK spent the last three years doing of them this. Oh absolutely I just on that point. I think that was a good moment to reflect. We were despairing. Hiring is the sort of failures of the storied Houses Venerable House of democracy. What a great moment that was that is parliament functioning as it shouldn't hadn't had real impact so it can still work fleetingly a couple of things one is general economic mismanagement had this big an ounce more about money being thrown it education this week but if you actually crunch the numbers and critically look at what brexit including still potentially an ideal brexit could do to the economy the value of the pound you could end up with this funding increase leaving. US worse off than we are today. Far less addressing drastic cuts that we've had on during your thirty thirty years and I think again another of these recalibration is a challenge. Perhaps more ought to the notion that the Tories as well as being a party of government are the Party of good financial eventual management because I think we've exposed that ruthlessly you got local governments twenty-five thirty percent down on budget in real terms since the start the coalition critical problems and as I said the effect of those cards will be felt for several generations potentially well finally finally on the news rap to the latest expedition of the American financier and adventure at Victims Vescovato victis Kosvo has both a name and private submarine like Coban Villain and has now become the first person to visit the deepest pointing all five oceans. We are of course taking his word for that. He's final dive wants to the molly trench. Five and a half kilometers below the surface of the Arctic Ocean. I chose Mister Vancouver explained to have some adventure whilst also doing something which would move us forward as a species Hussein adventure obviously and finances Monday good luck to him. Is he moving forward as a species. Do you think I didn't I didn't know if it's as far as moving forward is a species. It reminded me Love I. I hadn't heard this story until I was reminded me of Elon Musk's adventures where it's often framed as being like well because I have all this money and I can do things things that no one else can do like car in space but even though it's kind of like thon it's actually we're actually doing something. We just don't know yet. It's like they kind of used old kind of old anecdote from the Soviet Union days. which are you know building will be trying to build all these weapons and like you know mind? Control stuff is actually really a useful because they'll lead to great civilian like you know tools in the infamous to Mr Visco though they have deployed one hundred census slash landers to various ocean floors and I have discovered forty new species on route of I think is probably nothing terribly spectacular. I mean just to kind of this still it. It might seem like it's it's. I'm sure it's amazing feat and I'm sure about like it'll be really useful for like some people opens up even though this is such a fun story opens up this big question about like you know visa people with extraordinary power and extraordinary amounts of privilege who basically using things you know we'll taking ownership of like oceans and stuff off right like pete things that should belong to every time when we're talking about things like climate change and how that impacts people especially like the poorest in society like Doc. I think this really opens up a question about who actually benefits from that. What kind of cost benefit from these types of experiments is the point here tolmie a semi serious and depressing one that this may be excuse me is going to be the potentially the future of pioneering research and it's an it's not going to be a a like an enormous state enterprise like NASA which was massively inclusive employed hundreds of thousands of people that is just like some billionaire decides I want to build a submarine and we have to lawmen to do that. Unfortunately I think the envelope in exploration now is being pushed by the private sector now. You don't necessarily have to say that good or bad thing and private money is capable all of doing a great deal of positive things in philanthropy in discovery and exploration and the rest. I think what is interesting is if you look at these projects which for so long seemed vainglorious until the likes of NASA or the Soviet Space Agency tackled them the the they seemed prohibitively expensive even now NASA says it will be thirty billion to put a man back on the moon bringing back to the UK for moment. I don't understand how it costs thirty bit into a man on the moon but it costs seventy billion to tinker with the railway up to the north of England just going to show that none of these things make any sense whatsoever do either of you have any sort of ludicrous vainglorious project. You would pursue in the event of journalism making the review billionaires because the the which does happen frequently. I'd love mine private submarine identity. Should we give the private submarine you have. I'll be I'll be okay okay well. I shall leave Tom and Hussein to argue for what they going to call it. for the moment Tom Edwards and Hussein thank you both for joining us. You're listening to the briefing. You're You're listening to the briefing with me. Andrew Muller Adrian Dario won the Iranian oil tanker seized. It's by Royal Marines off Gibraltar in July and released the following month has been spotted off Tartus in apparent contradiction of assurances given by Tehran the two point one million barrels of oil aboard would not bound for Syria Iran. Meanwhile claimed to be preparing to release the British flag chips Dana imperio which was seized in the strait trait of Hamas in apparent retaliation. I'm joined now by Holly Dogmas non-resident fellow at the Atlantic Council and editor of the Iran source blog holy wolves the ever any doubt that Syria is where the Adrian Doria was always going well. It seems like this is something that the Iranians plan for a while and from what we've been seeing in the recent weeks though they were as you mentioned saying that they weren't going to send it to Syria. It seemed like that was the ultimate destination destination having been said it's worth noting that despite the tack that the tanker had turned off its tracking device off the coast where now hearing from tanker trackers akers which was a website that uses satellite imagery to look at these tankers across the globe that it's actually been docked in Syria and still hasn't unloaded this oil so I think that's it's worth noting. Is there any way though that a new quite correct to point out that so far at least the oil does not seem to have been offloaded but is there any way that Iran didn't think they would get cold. I don't think it was about that at all. I don't think Iran's in the situation where they really don't care what the international communities during given the fact that the United States withdrew from the Iran nuclear agreement in May two thousand eighteen and the EU and a fellow allies is including Britain France and Germany have yet to make good on their promise that they would help Iran and Iran's economy flow given all these sanctions sanctions that have been reimposed despite the fact Iran had not violated the Iran nuclear agreement initially so for them. They're in this awkward situation in there is that they need to solve all this oil or get rid of it no matter what to help make their economy. FL- leaving aside the question of the oil for the moment and returning to the nuclear deal the DC yet that Iran has an end game in mind where that is concerned. Are they trying to preserve it or do they want to sort of re join up to a modified version of it well from my understanding is that they're trying to preserve it and does seem counterintuitive given the fact that every sixty days since since July they've been reducing their commitments to the Iran nuclear agreement but in their minds as kind of a way of signaling and pressuring Europe that Hey if you guys don't do something we're GonNa to pull out of the steel and doing something by means of helping Iran stay within the deal by avoiding these. US sanctions on the country which are crumbling Iran's economy so when there is this is kind of signalling to Europe to do something and they've actually come out and said that there they these efforts are actually ways that they can actually return to the deal that they are reversible so it's clear what Iran is trying to do here but how strong does Iran think its position is news. It doesn't appear to have a great deal of negotiating leverage. Does it well. It depends on what what you look the way you look at things for starters. I mean we have other. US President that may or may not win a twenty twenty election. We also have a region marred in conflict that if something was to go wrong let's say hey that. Iran was to recommence its nuclear program that this could actually lead to a war that the United States or Israel possibly would lead so and there is these are two things that Europe is looking at very carefully especially the latter because Europe definitely doesn't want another war in the Middle East and doesn't want to be involved in that so in there is they have somewhat of the upper hand especially given these recent weeks the way they've been taking these tankers in the Persian Gulf and the fact that they shot down a hundred and thirty million dollar. US Strode now these calculations can also be dangerous because with all things are miscalculation something could lead to more next thing and then everyone's pulled into another Middle East conflict so it is something that has to be done carefully and cautiously in one would hope that cooler excuse me cooler heads would prevail by Ah given the circumstances to truly hard to say on the subject of President Donald Trump. He has declared again this week that he could solve all of Iran's problems uh-huh in twenty four hours if if only he was permitted to President Hassan Rohani of Iran has replied by saying we have no intention of holding in bilateral torch with the United States never did and we never will from Iran's point of view. Why not well very Iran right now the situation relation that's been happening since the. May Two thousand eighteen withdraws the sanctions being reimposed. They've also been acutely aware of the dealings with North Korea that the United States is had was was a two page paper that was sign a photo op. Nothing has progress on the front when it comes to North Korean nuclear weapons. Iran does not have these nuclear clear weapons but what's problematic for the Iranians are these sanctions soi unless the United States is able to actually provide some incentives like sanctions relief by actually removing them beforehand beforehand or even props returning to the Iran nuclear agreement. I think this kind of signaling is the kind that will bring the Iranians table otherwise they know full on the full well that if they just meet with trump he's going to use this as a campaign opportunity and he's not GonNa do anything after that because he wants to signal to his supporters said he's done something on Iran and the Iranians are fully aware of the situation Holly Doug Rose. Thank you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four coming soon monochrome Rolex bring you the pioneers for the founder of Rolex Bill Stove Stove. The world was like a living laboratory he began to use it as a testing ground for watches from the nine hundred thirty s sending them to the most extreme locations supporting voting explorers who ventured into the unknown but the world has changed as the twenty first century unfolds exploration pure discovery has given way to exploration as a means means to preserve the natural world to make the planet perpetual learn more with the pioneers coming soon to twenty four. You're listening to the briefing with me and Ramallah over the next eight or nine months most host the oxygen in American political discourse will be consumed by the race to become the Democratic Party challenger to President Donald Trump in next year's election however the Democratic primary will not be the only one conducted the field of Republicans hoping to unseat Donald Trump as their party's nominee has swelled to three with former South Carolina congressman and Governor Mark Sanford Joining Illinois Congressmen and Talk Radio Bloviating Joe Walsh and Massachusetts Governor Bill. Weld will joining me to discuss whether or not they have any hope is Ryan Williams who was Mitt Romney's campaign spokesman in two thousand twelve and is now executive vice president at targeted Victory Ryan that big question I would betting on any of these candidates to unseat Donald Trump your wise investment absolutely not these kinds of have no shot winning this race against trump and I think all of them know that hit a into it so that being the case the next question impromptu these. Why are they doing it. Well you know sometimes you launch a hopeless presidential campaign to try to prove a point or to raise an issue which I think we were seeing seeing in the case of former Governor Sanford. He came out of the gate saying he wanted to run to highlight the the debt deficit. You've seen this in previous years with other candidates candidates like Tom. Tancredo who ran solely on immigration platform so some of them want to run to get their ideas out there. Some of them want to run. I think just because it's fun and it's something to do. Do I think that's the case with former Governor Weld. He's been out of politics really since nineteen ninety eight and I think he enjoys it. He's been kind of a long shot candidate for a number of different offices. He was the libertarian vice presidential nominee so I think it's just something to do when he doesn't like trump himself and then former Congressman Walsh. I don't quite understand then what is the what he's doing. He's a one term congressman. He's been at one point a tea party radical now. He's an anti-trump guy. I'm not quite sure what his standing on things is. It actually widely strange that there's not more people doing this in anticipation of say a post. Donald Trump reckoning and and people wanting to be able to say after all this is over look. I was one of the good guys I tried. No I don't think so if you ran against an incumbent president especially this president who enjoys voice tremendous support from the base of the party you're GonNa ruin your your future prospects. They'll never forgive you so even a guy like John. CASICK who would be a stronger candidate against trump trump but we still lose by quite a bit He's not going to do this but I think he wants to. preserve as options for the future not only the the base of the parties with trump donor classes all of the traditional donors who have supported Republican candidates for president of the year with trump they like his policies. They may not like him but they're stuck with them so it would just rub people the wrong way. You wouldn't win you would not position yourself for the future really is just a losing proposition to run against him. I I mean is historically speaking challenging a sitting president from within their own party usually regarded as a pursuit of the non serious as anybody ever given the incumbent real fried. It's usually not serious. There are certain times when it was when incumbent presents were not just they weren't just on popular with the population at whole they were unpopular with their own party case in point Lyndon Baines Johnson when he was considering running for a second full term in nineteen nineteen sixty eight the Democratic Party his own party was upset with him because of the Vietnam War he suffered he he he won some of the early primary contests but one by a small margin and that convinced him to get out of the race his Vice President Hubert Humphrey got in the race and then Jimmy Carter who is a fairly lacklustre president had not a very good job faced a very serious. He's challenged from then Senator Ted Kennedy Carter held on but that was because he was the president use power incumbency it was still a real race and it was because because Carter was doing a pretty bad job not very well liked in office at the time so if just finally then if either of these three candidates or any other Republican contenders for Donald Trump spot on the ticket came to you asking for your strategic advice. What would you tell them. I would just say have fun but you're not not really GONNA win. I don't think you're going to raise an issue. The basically GONNA start trying to cancel most the primary so there's not even a chance to take dead up trump so I would just say enjoy the process S. get on TV as much as you want. Razor your profile because that's really the only thing you're gonNA. You'RE GONNA get out of this process wyndhams. Thank you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing. I think uh-huh you listening to the briefing with me. Andrew I'm join now to review the morning newspapers by -bility who is in the process of dismantling the studio around him angry so the newspapers of Meiji so angry you have knocked the pop shield off the microphone. Yeah why not I should reassure listeners that it has now been satisfactorily replaced. It's I am a professional and and I've got to like what has gone on in the world stories and then a juicy spy store okay well. Let's start with what the hell is going on in the world story. One Washington Post is to lawsuits and seizures in pursuit of medical debts. It tells the story of these two people who have lost their four bedroom house. They're going through a divorce that children are selling shoes on Ebay. They've closed on Ebay kind of get some extra spending money. All the calls the University of Virginia health system a a doctor's private doctor Dr Surgery has sued them for one hundred sixty four thousand dollars for emergency surgery. One of them had back in two thousand seventeen and they're not alone over six years health system. It says here has has doctors have sued former patients more than thirty six thousand times. This is one of those things that I think outside. America causes people to onto it is mind blowing the fact that you can end up as well as being seriously. Ill bankrupted by being seriously. Illinois happens to hundreds of thousands of people every year whereas being ill in any other developed country. Is I mean. It's annoying and everything because you're ill but it doesn't actually cost you money or leave out on the street. Leave your homeless exactly and I get it. You know these businesses is private. Companies may need to be paid for what they do but people not saying coming up. I'm going what the Hell is going on here. I mean people so scared that they still think that anyone that wants. Public health services are communists. It's apparently saw aw it is extremely weird and and the thing is bizarre. That story sounds. It's actually not that exceptional no not at all and it says this is this company is one of the I but there are many many many more basically hunting down poor middle class patients for almost all they're worth. It says moving along this isn't going to get church through the what the Hell is going on story to this is from the Los Angeles Times has a huge homeless problem there they've recently extended and apparently temporary law banning people from sleeping in that 'cause over sixteen thousand people in the in the city sleep in their cars so now they're saying oh you. You can't sleep in them so they're kind of been pushed out to. I don't know where the streets where it is currently still legal to sleep. However plans and new plans are afoot to limit where people can sleep so basically under the existing rules. They're not going to plant supposed to sleep in doorways drives. They're are also not allowed to sleep in the parks which seems like a good place for people to sleep overnight fifteen percent of the city. Now these plans are saying okay you. You can't sleep schools so you can't sleep on certain roads. You can't sleep near big public places like parks and beaches again. I get that it's a problem of to have these people in certain places. There's kind of drug use. That kind of thing needs people need to be kept safe but then offering any other suggestions or was going to ask ask what seemed the obvious question which was has anybody looked into suggesting where they can naturally sleep so they're spending all this time and money telling people where they can't go and not telling people where they can go okay so those are too depressing stories. You've led with bill. You said you had a slightly more cheerful third run the New York Times rescue. CIA spy left left blindspot at the Kremlin so this is a story about the CIA who recruited a mid level Russian official. Oh they pick the right one because he they nervous borough Gal. They got like pushed up through the ranks suddenly top level Kremlin access the highest they can get the sending all this information but this seems like a result by the Soyuz. They've done well haven't they. However when they released the information about the two thousand sixteen presidential election the interference the level of information and kind of yeah the the amount of intelligence eligible that they had was so high Russia GLOB is suspicious and they were like we've got a mole. We need to find the mall so they're kind of the Kremlin's going around trying to find who the spy is the. CIA TA obviously says to the spy don't aren't you can come back. We'll save you but the spice has no. They don't WanNa come back so the CIA like Oh my God they've they've been sending false info what's going on. The spy said it's because my family won't be safe here. The CIA says you have to come back. This is really really dangerous. Finally they agree three two now the heading out to the US however couldn't be a more important time to have a top level spy in the Kremlin. We've got a big election coming coming up we have the US is now almost completely blind as to what's going on within the Kremlin. Is it possible that that's what the want us to think. Dot What Andrew is why your sat there building. Thank you very much for that. You are listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four with me. Andrew Camila zero the now it seems in many respects we add to quibble with any enterprise which actually land something on the moon. You have a crack got it and see how far you get nevertheless. India's space agency is row remains in mourning for the contact lost with its Lunar Lander Chandra onto which went quiet hi it's shortly before touching down on the moon. South Pole at the weekend the Landa has now been spotted from the orbiter from which descended it appears to have tipped over onto one onside and is remaining obstinately quiet it has not yet been possible to deploy the Lunar Rover it was carrying on join now by society to Mohanty. CEO CEO of Earth to orbit India's first space startup submitted. Do we understand entirely at what went wrong here Andrew. I think it would be a little premature to speculate what exactly happened. Why Vikram the lander instagram soft landing made a hard landing ending so I think we'll have to wait for the Indian Space Research Organisation to trouble shoot and make an official announcement. I mean it. It does seem like in itself a strange strange question to find oneself asking about something which has fallen over on one side somewhere as far away as the moon but is is it theoretically feasible that the situation Maltbie recoverable. I think the best one could hope for as possibly being able to make contact with the Landau. The a tricky situation with the moon is that we have a lunar knights coming up. We have a fourteen day windows starting the seventh of September and after the landing site we'll be plunged in darkness. the other thing to remember is the Landau can communicate with the orbiter the Indian deep space network and the robot which by the way still sitting inside Orlando so I think the chances of getting the land to pop back up and become operational is highly unlikely I'm in any space agency including your own understands that they are undertaking exceptionally difficult work there any amount of things that can go wrong and I think I think people are there for probably pretty inclined to forgive them when does but how big a setback will is Roe feel this is to be honest Andrew it isn't that that biggest setback for two reasons one there were two segments the orbital segment and the selfish segment. It's the service segment went way we run into anomaly the cell the orbital segment is doing fabulously well and if we manage the mission precisely the orbital will last a good seven years. It has seven instruments on board so we can get a lot of science out of that as for the soft precision landing Andrew. Let's remember that the historical record for soft soft landing on the moon is way below fifty percent the last landings were made recently by China in January and before that they made yet another the lining in December of nineteen sorry twenty thirteen so and Russia landed back in nineteen seventy six as in Soviet Union and the the US landed back in nine hundred seventy two so so we have a long way to go when it comes to soft precision landings on country senses but to Israel feel under under particular pressure as India State Space Agency that they the the vehicle of National Prestige and if they get something like they get something like this wrong then that will reflect badly on the Indian nation has always always had unveiling during political and public support Andrew so no. I don't think so I think people are really rooting for Israel and the Landa so in terms of public opinion no. There's there's no way to bring it all. I've never never seen any major so I mean just to point of comparison. How important is is ro then to India. Now is it comparable with the role that Massar occupied in in the American national imagination in the nineteen seventies absolutely absolutely let's not I forget Israel made its first experimental rocket launch in nineteen sixty three which makes it As oiled space program as any of the other leading spacefaring tag nations so what are the limits of Israel's ambitions now obvious serious plans afoot to send you crewed missions to the moon I think so yes I think anybody who's going to the moon will start off with robotic missions sample returns and eventually make human sir you know think of human outposts probably around somewhere around the South Pole which is where we were headed by the way just finally I should ask about birth to all but the your organization. What are you working on now. So odds to orbit the first seven years we enabled international satellite makers is to launch on the Indian. PSLV rocket the last three years. We've been busy using Earth observation data and big data analytics to solve problems a here on earth. problems related to cities to agricultural solution and what have you is that something do you think that he's yet adequately. He communicated by state and private space programs all over the world. These are not just you know Grand Glorious Adventures. They do have have practical applications back down here. I think most of the Space Agency's most of the leading space agencies are falling short in communicating indicating that to their people. I think Andrew they need to do a better job at and finally the day to go back to where we come in came in rather within any spice organization whether it's a state one or a private one. How much does this set back like the one that Israel has had affect Internal Maral Paul. How hard is it to get people back up an excited about either fixing this problem working on the next thing any space mission of this magnitude endo take a good six seven. Moya's so yes I think the scientists will feel a little down but I think the spirit of the scientists into society and I know many of them. They'll bounce right back and we'll be stopped working on the next mission India's planning missions to Venus There's also another commission big plans are which is to study the sun so I think they're very exciting missions on their plate and they'll bounce back and andy back to their work sushmita Mohanty I anti at Earth to orbit thank you for joining us that is all for today the briefing was produced by Daniel Bates and research by Goffin and Charlie Phil mccord a studio manage. It was steph stronger. The briefing is back tomorrow at the same time that seven. AM in New York City midday here in London. I'm Andrew Mullet. Thanks for listening breath
UK politics in chaos.
"Coming up on the news a opposition MP's rage at Boris Johnson after he suspends Parliament US National Security Adviser John Bolton is fired and diesel cars emit more air pollution on hot days. It's Tuesday September Tan. I'm Anthony Davis opposition. Politicians rage to the Prime Minister Boris Johnson's five weeks suspension of parliament before the deadline for brexit which drew angry and unprecedented protests in the House of Commons outside it and even across Europe parliament has been prorogued all suspended at the government's request until October fourteen addressed it move that gives Johnson arrest bite from rebellious lawmakers as he plots his next move and tries to lead Britain out of the European Union by October thirty first opposition. MP's chanted shame on you and held up signs reading silenced as Parliament was formerly shut down in the early hours of this morning as legislators implored House of Commons Speaker John Berko not to comply. He expressed his displeasure saying this is not a standard or normal almost prorogation. It's one of the longest for decades and it represents an act of executive. Fiat Berko said the suspension came off to MP's MP's inflicted a series of defeat some Boris Johnson's Brexit plans they also demanded the government released by Wednesday emails and text messages among aides aides and officials relating to suspending parliaments and planning for Brexit amid allegations that the suspension is being used to circumvent democracy opposition dishes Labor Party leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Johnson of seeking to crash out of the E U and seek a one sided trade deal with the United States that would damage Britain and a no deal brexit is really trump. Deal Brexit Corbin told a union conference. No one can trust the word of a prime minister who is threatening to break break the law of force through a no deal Boris Johnson has acknowledged that a no deal brexit would be a failure of statecraft for which he would be partially to blame and he said he believed a deal could be struck by October eighteen when leaders of old twenty-eight. EU countries hold a summit in Brussels some MP's continuing doing to meet and debate parliamentary business informally as they feel now more than ever parliament should be sitting Donald Trump has fired. He's National Security Adviser John Bolton Lifelong proponent of American hard power off two months of division between the men over the direction of foreign and National Security Policy Trump announced the news earlier in a post on twitter Bolton tune was trump's third national security adviser and continue the pattern of departures by advisers who proved a bad fits for a White House leads by the president with no prior experience with the military national security or elected office Bolton's aggressive positions on Venezuela North Korea and Afghanistan clashed with the comparative reluctance of his boss to entertain new confrontations and wind down some old ones Baltin meanwhile communicated hatred in old school terms to leaders in Caracas Pyongyang and Tehran with threats about direct action from the US military and Bolton was was also said to have been a crucial force in torpedoing an agreement between trump a North Korean dictator. Kim Jon earn angry North Korean officials later Toco Bolton dim cited the some of positions like these and others was a national security adviser with a view about American strategic ways means and goals at stock odds with that of the president tensions eventually reached the point at which Bolton reportedly was excluded from meetings about about the war in Afghanistan these kinds of differences between trump and Bolton eventually spun the two men too far apart emissions from diesel cars even knew and supposedly cleaner models increase on hot days a new study has found raising questions over how cities suffering from air pollution can deal with urban heat islands and the climate crisis research in Paris by the real urban emissions initiative found that diesel car emissions of Nitrogen Oxides rose by twenty to thirty percent went when temperatures dropped thirty degrees centigrade a common event this summer emissions from a range of vehicles found to be many times higher than those declared by manufacturers in laboratory tests confirming earlier findings following the Twenty fifteen diesel gates scandal in which Volkswagen cars were found to emit forty times more nitrogen oxides on the road than during the Bartram Tests Call Obese Dismiss residents complaints about asthma and allergies as anecdotal title evidence and contest city halls measures to discourage car use in the city center. You can subscribe to the news with your favorite podcast APP or ask. Your Smart Speaker to play the news with Anthony Davis podcast leave us a review on I. Teens uh-huh and follow us on twitter at the news underscore podcast for daily updates. The news is an independent production covering politics inequality health and climate delivering honest verified and truthful World News daily.
"You're listening to molecules house. Few broadcast on the fifteenth of January Two Thousand and twenty monocle twenty four this is molecules house few coming up today. On the one hand they want the United States to remain very very involved in Nathan and his on his to be the main pair in NATO Tayo but at the same time particularly with trump in the White House they don't want America to dominate. When NATO is going as NATO's military chiefs gathered in Brussels? My guests married to Jeff. Ski and Jonathan. Fenby will be discussing. What's on the agenda and the day's other news including how retired Pope's should spend their time? and Ah AH. Expenses scandal handle potentially plaguing former speaker of the house. John Berko plus so long Frank Lloyd. Wright by Simon and Garfunkel still takes the award for the best use of an architect in a song. Andrew talk asks how to honor an architect. I'm Andrew Mullah Monaco's house few starts now welcome to the show and joined today by Mary. Jetski writer for the independent and The Guardian and Jonathan Fenby Chairman of China Research and director of European opean political research at Tes Lombard and author most recently over crucial on the making of our world after World War Two. And let's look first at NATO the actual military autry chiefs of which are shortly to convene in Brussels. The United States brass's TAT chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Mark Milley has burned one interesting. Item him onto the agenda in advance prefiguring a potential drawdown of American forces in West Africa. This extremely likely to prompt and unenthused response from France which is extensively deployed in theater which it believes not without reason is a key frontline in an ongoing global campaign against Islamist extremism. Mary what is going on here. One is the United States. Apparently losing interest in West Africa. Well I think there are two reasons. one one of them is because President Trump particpants -cially. I think the top brass in American intelligence. They are very fixed on what they see as the future threat coming from China and that they are increasingly concentrating their resources looking in that direction. The other thing is that trump came to office and this is often forgotten Saying that he wanted to stop American engagement in foreign awards and this I think was one of the one of the reasons why he was elected. It was a very popular policy For A lot of Americans it's and it remains so but right through his time as president trump has faced quite a lot of opposition from the top brass about cutting back on Americans abroad that have been various attempts. He tried to pull Americans out of Afghanistan on the top brass objected. He tried to pull Americans out of Syria. Immediate outcry from all the allies and saying he was betraying the Kurds. He tried to pull out of Iraq. Similar things West Africa could be seen as a sort. Take them slightly soft touch because the only people he's going to offend particularly by that again to be the French as we've seen well on the subject of the French French being offended Jonathan they going to be aren't they. And not without reason. France already has four and a half thousand troops deployed in West Africa. There's two hundred and twenty more due to go shortly and it's not like they've been doing nothing. They have found somebody to fight once they got there. Oh yes they've been very active there and suffered that quite a few casualties as part of that but also this fits for the Frans into broader attempt. By President Emmanuel McCall to reset it Franz. His relationship with former colonies in Africa lands going ahead on the economic front and on other fronts And I think ah the question here is how much France wants to take responsibility for this region of the world how much it sees this more as an international national global issue which the. US should continue to be involved with Mary. You made the accurate point that trump's big pitch in two thousand sixteen was that he would bring troops home that America would not engage itself in pointless ridiculous interminable wars overseas etc.. He probably does understand. The best. PITCHY can make this. November Is along the same lines. He walked a very narrow path to victory in two thousand sixteen but if he can go back to the American can people in two thousand twenty and say the economy's all right now. I haven't started any stupid wars. That's probably his best shot. That being the case They do we wonder how nervous other NATO military chiefs are going to be at the prospect of trump. Actually winning this thing. Is it then possible that the rest of NATO total really has to stop thinking about the United States as the cornerstone of the alliance. Well I think that Quite a lot of NATO but especially in the European Union That that sense has really been strengthening ever since trump came to office There was quite a lot of diffidence accordance Shall we say through the campaign. When trump seem to cast aspersions on the future of NATO suggesting that it wasn't necessarily in us the US interest to Continue to be in NATO And you saw the ructions from that right across Europe but especially interestingly In Britain of course but also in eastern Central Europe where they see the United States and NATO in particular as the protector the big protector the security against Russia. Now it seems to me that all though trump seemed to have been brought round a bit About the sort of survivability and relevance of NATO non the less that trepidation in Europe remains and we've seen just just in the last few days with a paper I think originating in the British military Where they say that the new you British government when it does it's it's promised Security and defence review has got to look ahead to a time when the United States may not be Engaged as it is in Europe and when the UK will have to look to being more autonomous in defense and security terms and that is a complete rethink For British military finds itself in classically horns of dilemma. Whatever whatever Cliche One canoes there on the one hand they want the United States to remain Invoked very very involved in NATO and if one is on his to be the main player in NATO and supplier of troops And so on but at the same time particularly with trump in the White House. They don't want America to dominate. When is going so you get this whole debate about? Where is NATO after the end of the cold? War Matt Coles remarks by being brain dead and having to rethink its future and so on but Europe has first of all to decide what role it sees for the United States and whether that allies with what trump things marriage jeff ski and Jonathan Fenby. Thank you both for the moment. We'll have more from you both in a moment but first here is Monaco's Bill Lucci with some of the other stories. We're following today. Thanks Injury Henry the UK. Franz Germany have formally accused Iran of violating the terms of a landmark agreement to curb its nuclear program. The European Palace say they're seeking to avoid a crisis. Isis is a nuclear proliferation. It could lead to the return of sanctions that were lifted following me. Twenty fifteen a cord. Boeing has reported its worst annual orders in more within two decades as the company struggles to defuse a crisis over at seven. Three seven. Max The model has been grounded since two deadly crashes last year the crisis means is the. US company has lost its title as the world's biggest plane maker to its rival Airbus. India has partially lifted an Internet blackout in the part of Kashmir. That it administers is it. Follows a ruling by the country's highest court that the restrictions were unlawful. But it's understood that mobile data services and social media and the restless region will remain blocked and the Monaco minute reports. This year's at wake up prize has been awarded to the Swiss city of Baden for revitalizing. Its main hub. The Swiss Heritage Society's top Gong Gong given to cities that have successfully raised the quality of urban life. Back to you Andrew. Thanks bill this is Monaco's house view. I'm Andrew Mullet here with marriage. Eski the ski and Jonathan Fenby and let us now move onto the rare problem of what a retired pope should do with himself. Pope's usually leave the office. Only when recalled to barracks expire the omnipotent overlord benedict sixteenth. Buck this tradition in two thousand thirteen. When he handed in the big hat voluntarily since then benedict has mostly maintained tained inappropriate silence but broke a few weeks back to speak up in defense of priestly celibacy apparently concerned by reports that his successor Pope Francis favors the Church church taking a more relaxed attitude? It now appears that benedict is walking it back. His name will be removed from future editions of the book in which he made his is feelings. Known Mary. Is there a good reason why anybody should still care what benedict the sixteenth thinks about anything. Well I think because he still has the rank This extraordinary sort of rank of pope. Emeritus it's an extraordinary thing keeps on these credit cards. The the that doesn't get you a hotel upgrade exact but by keeping the title even emeritus That puts him effectively on apart with the current pope And I think that was always going to create difficulties and it's probably remarkable really that we haven't seen similar difficulties until now But I think that's also when you when you look the two characters when you look at Pope Benedict as being What appeared very reticent? Bury 'em theologically based Very you traditional minded German pope. And you look at Pope Francis who's latin-american And this in fact is where this whole troubles blurs arisen. Because he's talking about part of the Amazon where it's very very difficult. Priests this argument is being going on for quite a long time as to whether if they lifted the celibacy requirement. Then then maybe it would be easier to find priests for those very remote areas But it does seem to me that in terms of character as well as in terms of everything else you're looking the two very very different people and so church which has still a very strong conservative. Whatever the president pope says and tries to do has a very very conservative lobby Maybe majority I don't know in the and which you know. Find it useful to appeal to the power hour of the pope. Emeritus Jonathan I. I will confess to our listeners that I am not myself and especially accomplished a Catholic theologian but you think I am. I'm hoping you know more about this than I do. Just benedict the sixteenth quoted views on the issue in question itself. He says it doesn't seem scene possible to realize both vocations by which he meant the priesthood and marriage simultaneously. Now other married people in my experience have jobs boy wait. Is this one any different. Because when you become a priest as I understand it celibacy is part of your decision to to remove yourself from the material every day human world and become. Somebody somewhat different. Mary I would like to expand this conundrum onto the more general principle. Here which is which is what happens when people leave office once you should that be the end of it once you are off the stage as it were should you therefore just shut up. Well I think one of the reasons may be the reason currently for the continued existence of the House of Lords in the UK is exactly to give a sort of position under role for people. WHO HAVE I think? Kerm terminology is stepped back from public life But they can also make trouble even when they're in the Lord's even in what is regarded as subordinate position. vis-a-vis the comments I mean. We saw That Margaret Thatcher gave her successor. John Major a very hard time when he was in office And it's been I think it's quite it difficult for people who've been to that extent engaged on the front line Actually to say nothing when they see or seems to them that they're successor is behaving such foolish way to become used to that. And when you're still relatively I mean that's one has a number of quite young presidents prime ministers and so on retiring. Tony Blair Bill Tinson others. Who I think we'll find it very difficult just to say I'm going off to take long walks in the countryside and say nothing? I'm sympathetic to that. To an extent because it must spe- the heck of it adjustment from having the sort of the world hang on your every word to suddenly you know once you've sort of signed a piece of paper handed off. Nobody caring anymore but is there Jonathan away that you can do. I guess constructive backseat driving. I mean I've just come back from Australia. Where our current Prime Minister Scott Morrison has been weathering the bushfire across to a chorus of criticism? Some of it from one of his predecessors Kevin Rudd who broke with the protocol of differential respect and and sank the boot in with what unmistakably like relish but. Is there a way that you can actually be helpful as former officeholder. Yes I I mean you can bring the wealthy experience that you've had and good judgement etcetera etcetera a t to bear if your success was wanted of course they may not want aren't they may not want somebody who was there and was perhaps more successful on them Sitting on their shoulder the whole time. So it's a very very difficult situation I think you are a lot of ex-leaders find their way into leading a foundation for good works and saw but almost inevitably they get caught up in in what they used to do. I mean I think one of the one of the strongest conventions about not interfering and not even commenting on your success was in the United States. where past presidents were not supposed supposed to say a word about their successor? But that's been broken by Barack Obama who has been quite vulnerable On the subject of what he sees as the errors of Donald Trump's ways and on the one hand you know. There's a lot of us who would say well. You know good would on him quite right for doing that on the other hand. I think there's a very very sensible place for this convention. That says you should find something else to do. Just about and Donald Trump defeated in November. I don't think he'll silent. I wouldn't have thought so no. Finally on today's news panel sticking with the subject of X.. Office holders is to former House of Commons speaker and future reality show fixed. John Berko an enterprising hack from the daily mail. Find filed a freedom of information request for Berko macos expenses and was richly rewarded. Indeed nearly as much as Berko had been himself it turned out among the line items for which Berko build the tax. Payer were a thousand thousand quid for a taxi from London to Nottingham and twelve grand for leaving parties for his staff prior to his departure from the job it is of course right and proper for journalists to take the moral high ground on this issue as we are as a trade proverbial for our punked Tillis Hon- honesty in this respect Mary first of all to John Burkhas actual claims especially. He's thousand pound taxi ride from London to Nottingham. He could literally have bought a car less than that It claimed That he was unable to take the train for security reasons but but really well I mean yes. It seems very strange that it was regarded as safer to take a car than it was for him to take the train but it does seem that he had taken the Triton once before on a previous visit savant accounts for So the idea that he he went to different ways seems indeed to have had some some Russian all to it but it does seem strange. I mean the other thing that seems strange to me about John Berkers expenses safaris. They've been reported is the the amount of expenses for instance going on lecture tours of the United States and all these sorts of things. I mean if you go on Elektra tour if somebody invites you to speak then I don't understand why he all. The British taxpayer should be footing the bill because it should be the people who you know. If I go to speak university they pay my expenses And I would have thought that that's that that's it's the way round it ought to be I should confess that I have once in my time. Put an actual intercity taxi ride on expenses. But it was it was it was Belfast is to Dublin. Wasn't across Australia Belfast. Dublin and I think about the mid nineties and it was like fifty quid or something so my my conscience is relatively easy on that but Jonathan. This sees the point at which we must confront the regrettable fact that it is not entirely unheard of for fellow practitioners of the journalistic trade to to take. I know exercise. Awesome to certain creative liberty when when filing their expenses obviously none of us present ever would have done any such thing. But what is the most polling thing you've ever heard of in this respect or even even the most admirable. Well I to to follow on from what you said. I will. There was the old tradition at the end of a lunch among among journalists. Who wants to take the bill? Yes S. who's going to use this thing There was the famous story over an American photographer. Who went for for a long assignment on an aircraft carrier and on his way back when he returned filed an extensive travel expenses for this trip and the accounts department said you own aircraft carrier and he said bloody big ship and there's another another photographer again American? WHO had a train train not just to see like John Burke Trade in South America the expenses he put them in on expenses says the expenses were sent back to him? He redid his expenses for exactly the same amount and wrote at the top of it. Find the train Mary Mary has. Has Anybody ever arched eyebrow anything. You've ever foiled only in my view extremely unjustly obviously goes absolutely without. Because I I actually post date the whole journalistic lunch culture and I would also regard myself as an absolute horrible puritan re US regarding expenses but also Admit that on one occasion I was a party at least To chartering a private plane emesa yeah and this wasn't actually stupid thing to do and we I would say accounts department considerable amounts of money because several of US had to get following Mikhail Gorbachev when he made his first visit to the Vatican he was then going on to molter and we were. We're supposed to go on to Malta. Getting from Rome to Malter in time to cover these two events was actually impossible other than by chartering a private plane and we actually saved everybody. I think an awful amount of money by having an absolutely terrifying ride ride through a storm descending practically vertically into Malta which you can possibly say was our just deserts Marie Jesse and Jonathan Fenby. Thank you both in a moment. We'll be asking the best way to celebrate an architect work. Listening to molecules. House feud do stay tuned. This is molecules house. I'm Andrew Mullah finally today if you will to write the story of architecture what kind of story would it be. A gothic romance. A brutal EST thriller well. No according to Monaco's editor Andrew Tuck it would most surely be a musical sound Cloy Simon and Garfunkel surely even today day the most famous for doing it creating a song or a celebrated architect gets picked up in the lyrics. Yes we know that David Bowie sang about a few architects. To here he is and I quote stumping along on this big Phillip Johnson. WHO still looking to Joe's scheming dreams to blow their minds? But so long Frank Lloyd. Wright by Simon and Garfunkel still takes the award the best use of an architect in a song even if. It's apparently more about Paul. Simon hinting the impending break with Art Garfunkel who trained as an architect rather than the work of the prairie schools leading figure. Does it really wouldn't make much sense. Otherwise here are the lyrics. Dan Cloyd tweet it until now. This has been the star ton many architects hoedown or sing along. Oh Oh yes. They love a sing along those architects but now a new song has arrived to shake things up the British one woman pop hit factory. Three do a leaper has a new track called future nostalgia and get this for retro but on the money lyrics timeless song and I want to change the game like modern architecture. John Lautner coming your way. Yes John Freaking Lautner just in case your less excited than us. Lot numbers are prolific architect. Who mostly practiced in California and bill several celebrated atomic age houses and helped create the futuristic? gooby style his work gains fans every year and one of them seems to be. Julie leaper is a song that is already a shoe in for every architects ball in twenty twenty. But we're hoping should also do the honors for Van der Rohe Funder Rhyme Fizeau Hadid aid perhaps give a shoutout to David Chipperfield monocle magazine's editor Andrew Tuck. And that's all for today. The show Monaco's house view was produced by Daniel Beach and Baluchi and research by to me. Ask Studio manages was Steph. Chungju David Steven's coming up at twenty hundred brand new edition of the Entrepreneurs Molecules House. Few is back at the same time tomorrow. Eighteen hundred London. I'm Andrew Mullah. Thank you for listening.
UK Parliament prorogation to go ahead.
"Coming up on the news you K- parliament's suspension to go ahead Hurricane Dorian survivors not welcome in the United States and nearly all British Airways flights canceled as pilots go on strike. It's Monday September nine. I'm Anthony Davis the five week suspension of parliament. We'll begin later after. MP's expected to again reject government calls for a snap election opposition. MP's confirms they would not back the push for for an October fifteen Paul insisting law blocking and no deal brexit must be implemented. First ministers have called the law lousy and said they would test attest to the limit what it required them. Boris Johnson has been warned he could face legal action for flouting it. Common Speaker John Berko says is he will stand down at the next election or on October thirty first whichever comes first speaking in parliament Mr Berko said his ten year tenure was nearing its end and it had been the greatest honor and privilege to serve if there was no early election he said thirty first of October would be the least disruptive and most democratic date his faced fierce criticism from Brexit is who have questioned his impartiality on the issue of Europe and claim he has facilitated title efforts by MP's opposed to a no deal exit to take control of Commons business. Mr warned that if the appointment of his own successor was left until after the next election newly elected MP's might find themselves being unduly influenced by Ponti whips in their choice of figure it will mean a balance. Let's he's held when all members have some knowledge of the candidates. This is far preferable to a contest at the start of parliament where new MP's will not be similarly informed he you told the Commons in an emotional speech he said he had been proud to stand up for the interests of MP's and to act as the back benches backstop hundreds of hurricane Dorian survives crowded into a ferry anchored in Freeport Bahamas on Sunday evening after days on the sweltering islands with limited food water and power just two and a half hours across the ocean a safety and relief waited in Fort Lauderdale Florida then an announcement blared from the boats into com- speakers please all passengers is that don't have a US visa. Please proceed to disembark a crew member said in a video captured on board since Dorian devastated the island's earlier earlier this month hundreds of Bahamian refugees have reportedly come to the United States after going through a screening process with only a passport and proof of no criminal record the more than one hundred refugees forced to disembark Sunday night were baffled about why they were turned away at the last minute like this. It's kind of disappointing Reynard Oliver who held his infant daughter said it's hurtful because I'm watching my daughter cry but it is what it is on Saturday. Nearly fifteen hundred refugees traveled to the United States on another cruise ship reportedly without requiring visas. The refugees plight comes off the bipartisan partisan calls to waive all visa requirements for Bahamas survivors on Wednesday Senators Marco Rubio and Senator Rick Scott of Florida wrote an open letter to Donald trump urging him to allow in refugees with relatives in the United States eighteen other. Florida lawmakers made a similar appeal. He'll British. Airways was forced to cancel virtually all flights for Monday in Tuesday. After its pilots went on strike for the first time in the airline's history the strike was called by the British Airlines Pilot Association amid eight a heated dispute over pay with the airline that shows no signs of abating Palpa is planning another strike for September twenty seventh and said today that further strike dates may be announced nearly two hundred thousand passengers would do to travel today and tomorrow pilots are unhappy with as offer of an eleven point five percent salary increase over three years. They want a greater share of the airline's burgeoning prophets be posted operating profit of nearly two billion. Leeann pounds for two thousand eighteen an eleven point six percent increase over the previous year the average salary for be a captain is one hundred sixty seven thousand pounds sounds plus flying allowances. The offer of eleven point five percent would take the average salary to two hundred and two thousand pounds with another strike planned buffet said it would contact passes traveling on that date if their flights were likely to be impacted you can subscribe to the news with your favorite podcast. APP or ask Your Smart Speaker to play the news with Anthony Davis podcast leave us a review on I iteens and follow us on twitter at the news underscore podcast for daily updates. The news is an independent production covering politics wchs inequality health and climate delivering honest verified and truthful World News daily.
104: EDGE OF DESTRUCTION: Time runs out with guests Roland Smith and David Allen Green
"Hi, I'm Jay Farner, CEO of Quicken Loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card that may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken Loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage the rate today on our thirty year fixed rate mortgage is four and a half percent APR four point seven eight percent. Call us today at eight hundred quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com. Rates subject to change. Fifty percent receives just kinda great call for cost information in conditions. Equal housing lender. Licensed in all fifty states MLS number thirty thirty. Hello everyone. And welcome to the you know, when you've been fur-coated issue of maniacs at the time of recording. The closest the government has to apply forward on Brexit after speaker John berko rule. The Theresa May not bring her deal back for third time without substantial changes is to kick the can further up the road with a short extension. How short whether the will grant it. And what difference it will mean make remain to be seen? We were seized Brexit cards describe this week as Erskine mayhem. And we have to take our hats off. We can't improve on them. I'm Russ Taylor. I'm with me sporting thousand yard stare and visibly flinching at the words amendment probation at Mark Francois. And p is done CAC fig away their politics Koto UK. Hello. And how are you on those? Pretty good. How is my general sort of existential disposition pretty shit actually pretty pretty pretty gloomy? Yeah. I didn't play before that. I never pretty. Pretty pretty bad. Do you have a copy of Eskin may because it's one hundred quit on Amazon. On me. Sorry quit. And I wasn't meant that wrong. That isn't necessarily how I choose to spend my NAS four hundred zero getting higher all the time. I expect. Yeah. Joe NBA coat might be pushing his on EBay soon. So keep an eye out set up. A smart search we have not one but two special guests this week Rowland. Smith is a lever turned article fifty provoker in the run-up to the referendum. He made what he called the liberal case for leave citing largely economic arguments for disentangling Britain from centralizing gear opinion union since the vote he's become increasingly disillusioned with the reality of Brexit. And he eventually included we should call the whole thing off indeed Ely earlier this week he described the current scenario as a traveling shit show, and he's definitely one. The most interesting episode for maniacs for former lever to appear on price. Welcome to the show Roland very nice to be. We're going to talk about your Brexit journey in detail later in the show. But was there a specific moment that convinced you this cannot be done. Oh heavens the been so many moments. I think it's just been a very gradual journey a very gradual steps over very long period. I think checkers was the the moment though, that I saw this going in the wrong direction completely. And that's when I tweeted the I'm going to withdraw I support from leave. I didn't say much more than that. I didn't switch to remain or anything else about revoking article fifty. But yeah, I think that was probably the moment. I just thought I with this. I cannot put any more and all the lies on the nonsense that have just gone on people doubling down left right and center, you just can't morally stick with it. And that's where I got to. Also with us is a man who was so excited by the events of this week that he actually unprotected his tweets. Policy commentator. And self confessed Jabbour to sound like David Allen green. Welcome back. David. Thank you not. Cokes. You are now the autism formerly known as Jack of Kent because you killed him off this week. Why to go, you know, ten years ago, everybody had sorts of fancy blogging names. And it just seemed to be told after a while. So yeah, I just let him go. I don't know. He's doing now is probably wouldn't doing round. So. Probably close to here. Yeah. This week has been legal Greek Christmas for you, hasn't it will you ever be able to come down from this? Hi, this is the most exciting time to be a constitutional lawyer since the sixteen ninety s. It's not it's not concentrate. Well, it's been quite splendid is even if the ends, politically disillusioned and depressed moment constitution itself has shown itself quite well. In checking the government the government did not want to get its way, and it didn't solicitor general calls constitutional crisis constitution working. But we still don't know whether how we're going. Do we? This but will free ultimate destinations of office. Christian is not any which one we're going to get these sorts of stuff. We're going to do on the way. None of these extensions by themselves. Takes us to any of distant Asians. We just could be deal could be no deal could be revocation plausible pathways to all three of them. Right. We'll get more detail later, and we've got to quick reminders. Now. It's the big put it to the people much in London on Sunday, the twenty third and the Romania ex blue block will be assembling on the corner of Park Lane and Curzon street for twelve noon. Come and join us and remember you can print classic protest banners. Created by Jason Hasely and Joel Morris of filming conch fame for them. Right remain ex patriot page, apparently Jeremy Corbyn will be in Lancaster on Saturday for a national campaign day pushing for a fair society labor governance in more common loons Dale, but if you can be there instead. And don't forget, you can also see remain axe. And the cream of political podcasting at the podcasts live politics day in London on Sunday, the seven to eight Pearl among the shows that have just confirmed a politicos EU confidential. The new European podcast. Sophie, rich on Sunday at our archrivals Brexit cost from the BBC. There may even be adults off in the car park and command-style tickets are on sale now podcast live dot com. Patchy supporters, get a discount on day tickets as what has admission to the right Burr maniacs. Joe? Search patriot Romania ax to find out more. Okay. The gates have Heller open and we woke straight in on Monday. John berko ruled out the dreadfully named m v three leaving the government's Brexit plans in total disarray and extension of the exit date of nine months longer seems inevitable in can you concisely some up that disarray? Please. Okay. So what we thought was that she was going to put forward as sort of two pronged extension request, which those no guaranteed their anyone's going to tolerate. What we didn't think it? I mean, she sort of said it. I mean, she put the motion forward was was framed in the typical of contorted way that made you think someone's up to some depreciate. Here's some web. I wonder which parts it is. However when I mean, the the factual statements that were put out by Dixie by the palm in order to substantiate. It very Katie said there will be an extension. It'll be a OB being short being long and David Livingston about as clearly as you could possibly get when going for the government on Thursday, sort of basically said, look, it will be long show that we're going to go for if there's no deal done by the time we go for the extension. It has to be long. It cannot be short because that would be completely irresponsible in a bunch of other things lo and behold this morning, it turns out I haven't got to do and they're gonna go for short. Anyway. However, there are I mean, there's a lot to be quite quite. Vigorously cross about about the stuff that went on today. Just fucking catalogue of lies that we've been treated to over really just this morning by the prime minister. However, I would put one warning before we get that which taking a look at the letter she sent to the EU again in the same that we saw on Thursday for the motion to language was extremely contorted all over again, and it sort of had these potential exit routes are going, I don't want to take part in the European elections, etc. Etc. So you could imagine on the basis of it. But even after extension it started if we get it once again trying to extend it once she got to the point that she thought no deal was that. But I think at the moment you have to think it's a bit of a glimmer of a hope because it seems over and over she will keep on capitulating to the G and that this morning seems to have brought us to a place where she's asking for a very short extension, which I would treat as basically a defacto ploy to get MP's into a position where surprise surprise once again, it's huggy overseas. No deal. But of course, it's entirely up to the U. Anyway, whether they granted extension on how long it is. And there are rumors today that Macron Emmanuel Macron, the French president is not going to allow much extension to do you think that they will roll over and let us have an extension even if we ask for it. The current messaging is or eight we don't know what's going on mcchord, and it's perfectly possible. The fringe of always been I mean, there's some figures that are quite senior in sort of fringe politics. You've suggested actually for a while they could handle no deal, but better than than we think actually in the medium-term strategic sense for FRANZ. It might not be the most terrible things happened. Thrones. Even though it would be destroying for them in the short term. The statements that we saw suggested that they would be talking about may media sort of about the same time as you'd be having the elections. Or did that expect extension to go much longer? Now at the moment. It doesn't seem any demands from the British odd for the extension to go on much longer. NPR quite scattered at anything, we can expect labor. It's put up a strong fight on this. So seventy her request, which is for the end of June gets narrowed down to about half way through the thing. The thing is is absolutely absurd. I mean may is no time whatsoever. I'm talking about the month in on the prime minister. There was just no time whatsoever. There is talk. I understand that we have to notify the EU that we're going to put forward candidates in the European elections by mid April will parliament rises on the fourth of April. That's about a week after we're supposed to actually leave. The just is no time. And this is the real frightening thing about this. She is absolutely blatantly run down the clock, and we'll continue to do. So she's teasing you in with this. Hope she's dangling it in front of you on experienced. No, I know. Pleasing symmetry. If and said, no because the UK's you opinion adventure started with president French president to goal. No. Now, French president, no. Bookended as we go berko Zwilling. In hindsight. It looks as if it was inevitable. But actually, it was an expected and berko did not have to make a bowling. He could have destroyed stepped at all because an MP asks for willing to speak as the give one it was entirely plausible. He could have given a different ruling because he made his decision not just for applying precedents, but deploying precedent in the circumstances and context of his particular situation, and it wouldn't be that difficult to have found an exceptional circumstance to distinguish this from previous locations of president. But. Wasn't inevitable. What was going to be inevitably this week? Difficulties in getting MP free for and what berkers intervention has done. It's a convenient thing to be blamed for not even trying any more with pretty envy free. And so where we are. Now legally is that we all going to be leaving next week on Friday at eleven o'clock, your that's where we've always been Nikolay. However, I mean certain things I think have changed. I mean, the the burqa ruling limits downing street's ability to bring back a deal in some context. Now, we don't know exactly what that is the legal advice that I was hearing that morning, which is not the way that it turned out, but for most constitutional experts, I spoke to what actually the one we talked about the substance of emotion. It was meant in quite a Broadway. Where the speakers judgment would include an idea about the will of the house and by virtue of that he will be opened him to hold concessions with MP's to try and substantiate. Some of those weekend reports in the newspapers about people moving over to her deal and that would be treated as a difference in substance. That is no I said to beco- basically said you have to come back with a change in the deal itself. He kind of I think sort of opened the door to saying that an extension attachment to it would constitute that. But it didn't confirm it to one of these perfectly post which you can come back with that. And even then he would say, you don't have anybody to change. All the change to the political declaration. Yes, exactly. Because there were two documents on the section for the act which has to be placed before the common. So let me tell you will change in only approval would be substantial change for for that, motions purposes. So and so it wouldn't be difficult to get round swirling. What does the government to Mohib us? Clearly, John is found a wonderful excuse not being the MVP free back and not to have up for defeat. Yeah. But they weren't acting that way on the day. I mean on the day, they were I mean, they were they were fucking chaos to be honest. I mean, well, we all were really I mean, no one was expecting it to go that way. And the government certainly seemed completely astonished an angered by by this stage. I mean, that's so foot of sort of tribal conspiracy theory, ten Hatton nonsense economy detail, I mean, they've they've definitely drunk the Kool aid so to them. He is basically like an enemy competent who's just sort of unit behind enemy lines and change the moves to the game. Sorry, it it. It was a supply, but he was not entirely for city facility. Forseeable I'm full downing street's be blindsided. Is yet another example is best case scenario government has done a hold of Brexit in rabbit doesn't actually if include contingencies of things not working. It's like its own sort of just-in-time ISM. Berko is the perfect scapegoat. He's he's democratically immune effectively he's in the Osman's career. Here's an author pain in the arse, and he has been for years and conservatives I'll say propagates evidence hated him from years when he was the chairman of the federation of conservative students. He is just that waiting to be a scapegoat. So I just looked at all the front pages the next day thinking. Yeah. This is the perfect guy to stop Brexit. Because no one else is going to take ownership of this thing. No one is going to stop it. Because will of the people some team point four million minus one and just no gain to some. They're all waiting for something to turn up and Burke turned up and he three now. Yeah. He can do what he wants county. Yeah. Yeah. So the only other circumstances in which Bonnie might extend. Much greater extension would be if we had another general election or another another referendum, isn't there? A child says of that increase to know. Hey right now. Neither of those things are looking good at two of this morning with looking pretty good last night when I went to sleep and not so great when I woke up, I think there are the context I mean bunny keeps them sort of going. We'd be perfectly opened coming up with a bigger idea on the future relationship document. You know, basically, you know, making pretty is it cool because they're quite like, the general sound of Kuban stuff around that because they basically think what that really means a single market membership and cousins union membership is really what you're talking about. When you talk about that kind of thing. And they think they could probably do that relatively quickly. Donald today was saying three months, I don't you might be able to do that in three months. It was very wishy washy you wouldn't want to have to you might want to just give yourself a bit longer. Because of course, here is the rational case for it. And therefore, of course, completely irrelevant to anything that we're doing an all politics right now. But if you're a Russian. Actor you might as well take the long extension. If you get the deal, you can leave whenever you like if you go for a short extension. You haven't got the deal you have to ask all over again scenario, which extremely uncertain to grant it. So it makes no sense to go shopping. You'll simply narrowing your own room to maneuver, but I would say that that, you know, some kind of change in the future relationship document alongside and other election a referendum the sort of things you can do with extension and just for completeness, though, is another way of changing date once Fidel is a great because once Fideles agreed. It can be posted. But sneak on the section fifty which allows in date with one as an extension to article fifty. But once Dale will is executed ingred and modified by both sides, it can be post dated to take account of any of the VAT stop service any article fifty revocation because off the what we've oh Conseco fifty stops. Once fee agreement has been ratified by soins. I'll be interested in your view on this thing that's coming from the last twenty four hours actually whereby we could almost end up with Schrodinger as no deal whereby the EU grants is an extension, which we of course, accept, but we can't get our own domestic legislation changed in time for the twenty ninth of March. So you have this really weird situation where we're kind of in the EU. I it's it's a kind of a no deal, but we're still in the EU at the end of it. So it's sort of we've done Brexit. But we haven't done Brexit. It's actually something genius. Awesome. And how how how? It's going to be really wonderful because you go the internet as much we've international law. You're you only party to the tweet is where you're not. And once you not party to between his and you are no longer under any obligation diverse treaties, and we into known to no obligations to us. Matt is a Boina situation. He's boy article fifty uses for ways treaty cease to apply because as a matter of what's called public international law you out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You could eat does not have a so of legal system, which means treats his have immediate effects internally. It has what's called did y'all system which means that it has to be somehow enacted, and you've been community European Communities out is method which feature it is affecting. That the you've been communities that is to be repealed on the twenty ninth of March varies point. We legislate human says about I'm not sure about the legal status. It's been put into effect yet. But on the statute book decipher and to get widow effort needs a statutory instrument may not be enough time fulfill that. Extensions of article fifty has to be to a specific day for has to be a day wherever Tweety cease to you only test me specified. So we can't do what the Disney copy pointing of copyright terms. Being determinedly Moines is one day. Just so you could actually have a certain period, it does have to be specific date. So it can't be for further notice or anything like that. From the show from Hansel society roadblock, especially this issue the gap between the domestic and the international Brexit day. And she's just the latest that we could pass such tour instrument to change domestically was Monday. Now, there's no indication politically that anything would have changed that we live in. I mean, even looking at the EU right now talking about talking about this next week the same thing with the government. So it seems that all of the political decisions are being made post the point that is the last point of return for changing the in domestic law is that you take as well Monday is the latest could bail? I think you using the usual methods of putting such instruments before the house. Yes. But if it was an exceptional situation of all the ways you could address the situation you could have -mergency legislation to repeal the relevant provisions. You could have an Sony to actually not give a fit to certain provisions for well over vase rounded. But they would take planning they would take time, and you just really hope fought these sorts of things. In other words, they have sure. Recline employers of very good. I've never said anything used to be lawyer myself say very good. But they all good as as you instruct them. And the problem is is that so many of the ministers a grading in arrogance. She listened to useful voice departments. So so we could actually drop into a domestic legal. Void. But the politics politics catching up with where we are. Now have a foot out phase. And if we have a foot out, what is that going of this movie of a delicious ingredients nervousness is? The meaningful vote is just one bit of ratifying the deal. Section fourteen for relevant ads provides four things which need to be done for Infinity stones which need to be collected by government before they can go out and actually fly as as I can understand concepts without relating them to the mall for you. But. Thrones of okay, one of them is the meaningful vote, but but also has to be an entire app to parliament passed to implement. That after parliament has not even been published as a Bill they will probably parts of it. Which is so who Rick, but they are being kept in a shed of a back of one of government departments because nobody can dare show it to Brexit in peas. I'm that would have to pass before the end of may. E- even for the deal to go through as well as remaining vote. I'm what you could have is. Gluing situation where for meaningful vote is passed, but the implementing legislation is blocked by or you overlords or whatever. And then we'd still got crushing out. And my one of one of her meaningful vote. I think that is on the price. The idea that the legislation itself is holed up pasta. The point of no return that must be on the price. Well in Europe revoking now has this week Brutus any closer to revocation. Do you think? So that's a very good question. So I've taken the view that whenever the risk of no deal rises the risk of if you can call it a risk probably not in this August company. The the revocation likelihood also rises by a corresponding an equal amount. We just don't really see it or talk about it. So on that basis. Yes, I suppose it has. But I still think it's a long way off. I as I said before I just don't see MP's really wanting to own this, and they should be asking themselves. Even if only in private what is my preference between revoke and no deal. And I'm not sure whether MP's really asking themselves that hard question because it may come it may come and it may hit them, and they need to have an answer. I don't think that public even sees it as an option because it's not disgust. Their mental. Yeah. And of course, it will just be treason, and Boston's and get rid of them and saw writing and all this nonsense that the the Brexit is really pushing David I take it. You agree that with occasion is just a way of on us. On the politics of it. But it would be quite legally difficult. I'm sorry to keep on these legal difficulties influence of everything. But some lawyers think the prime minister could just with oak could just send a letter to view being council, and he would have the opposite. But equally effectively regional notification and persistently continuing the only requirement seems the only explicit requirement. It seems from the UPN caught to Justice decision is that it has to bring process to an end. So it can't be used in an obviously cynical way. But as long as it meets fairly low requirement, then wouldn't sweeping council accepts it then. Yeah. Over lawyers clever me, no dealt with double firsts. Don't stop. Save you actually can't just do who point ministerial discretion ITO actually has to have point we legislation just like the notification at but again, equal and opposite. You can see symmetry going on here. I think all lawyers agree. It would be legally safe. If it was important we that decision because when he can't be judicially with you'd by anybody, but you'd have to get legislation through. I'm not would not to be be easy for reasons. Which Rowlands has agreed mean then pays what she had to own decision to to vote on. I don't see them owning us this. This is where I think really you do have to put it back to a referendum. I think MP's here's. No. But empties just revoking. It's just not going to wash politically. It may come to it just through sheer desparation, which is why I say he's really need to think privately about what they would choose in those circumstances against no deal. But really the should be going to another friend. Yeah. I mean, speaking may lose sorry. You may lose speaking. Speaking of that have the latest polls into the jets amaze me that if you put no deal against remain, and you put May's deal against remain people actually prefer no deal which extrordinary to me given the choice between the two. But that seems to be where it's going at the moment, but the internet chatter among Brexit to seems to be more and more that maze deal is is worse than remaining. And do you feel that that's that's the route winter down which going it's it's splitting fundamentally there are some people taking that route. On there are some people taking the other side. So some are absolutely convinced that no deal is the right way to go. But you, and we'll probably trying to engineer it, but you have people like Hanan, for example, Hanan 'cause well, particularly who openly talking about twenty one month extension and shouting it's praise praises doing a little bit. But they can see from their perspective. The. That might buy them time fundamentally to get it. Right. Knowing of course, that the prospect of revoke remain rises as well. As the prospect of no deal rises. You would take the house. Well, if if you're going to watch need Brexit, do it properly and get the twenty one months don't keep doing it. As a as a pace stop trying to treat a complex situation as implement an honor. I would be the site, but perhaps on a little BAAs these days, but I would be the same. But I mean, the other thing I would say about this is twenty one months is no time whatsoever. We're all sitting here looking at the current situation thinking week is just a horrific -ly short time longtime whichever way you want to look at it. And twenty one months is just mentioned actually twenty one months is no time whatsoever. And it will be round in no time and nothing will have changed fundamentally. I don't think at the end of that couple of smaller subjects before we move on labor and a people's vote. It's Donald Cobain have issued contradictory statements that signals to that's bit of an understatement. But of the mind so often that it's impossible to know where the party stands in. Where does the party stand on an vote as of Wednesday off? Noon at two forty four PM I'm going to sound like a broken record. The basically is no fucking pie. Okay. So it's basically just a series of warring tribes. That's what it is. And so when we keep on thinking, whereas labor now is no it doesn't exist. There is no labor. There's basically just a bunch of teeny little mini parties who have opinions at any given moment. I mean, one of them's shames, melanin, whatever he says, whatever she pushing against having another a friend them one of them is kissed alma, whatever he says, we'll be pushing towards having another referendum Kuban is in the slipstream of melon knowing tardy the best metaphor. I've used them. But nevertheless, but occasionally gets tugged. Now, this is getting worse and worse for the fucking moment. I always say this chained to a radiator. But anyway. Experience. So at the moment, he's quite clearly trying to avoid any mention of a referendum almost to the point of it. He's almost sort of mocking it in a way because he keeps on saying that needs a people vote, and the people's vote will be a general election, you go back to basically go. Now, you cheeky fun son of a bitch. You're basically side eyeing us. The talks he's had this week. He seems much more positive about the concessions. He's had with the soft. Brexit 'as with a bigger pardon. What does it the Commonwealth two point? Oh, or whatever. Well. Yeah. And that's where he seems to be right now. But look tug of war keeps on going on week after week after week. So there is no specifically position indicates you the tribes that happened to be winning the bachelor this week. Do we give much credence to the idea that he's he's tied on he's an old man and he wants to step down. Always that just wishful thinking wipeout, anyway, I can't read into dot com. I'll just like we spent the last two three years looking to resume in Jeremy Corbyn blank fucking faces and trying to read in some kind of psychological motivation. There isn't anything there that just empty Russian does. But there's only one DOE. Watching the politics of office. One of the worst things about having to deal with Brexit. He's actually having to watch for and it's just crystal. I'll be so glad when it so you never have to watch any recession again. But watching today. What was quite? Strain. May instead of just tearing into your position was tearing into a house. Yes, she wasn't blaming for house like specific naughty school children and bows has got to live with its consequences for houses, just totaling or something along those lines and was just. Peel, June, the call crisis Gladstone home rule crisis. I'm buttered point ministers. No reframe started taming into the house as a whole conflict of any of appoint minister who is actually started attacking van tire house of Commons four not getting very way. That's why I feel more constitutionally nervous than you. Do. I think that like, you know, this week was good. It was good moment. Constitutionally it showed. There was something some part parliament standing up, but she has proved herself with this idea of having this sort of popular sovereignty a hit back this referendum result, which is an entirely new source of legitimacy to the one in parliament just proved itself to be quite a quite disgraceful prime minister. And I'll agree that moment today where she seemed to be talking the institution of parliament, not MP's the institution of parliament full reposing hoods, you I mean when she says parliament is a so did the haven't really did it. I mean, they've twice told you can fuck off. I mean, that's quarter rejection. That's not dithering. Look a political. Andrew look, at least go breakdown was off expecting to stop singing daisy days any moment. She she just does not know what to do of of 'intertwine keep getting through. And I remember watching goes as home secretary because obviously Duma law and policy store for had an interesting, and she was very good at forcing legislation foo she did it with the data retention and regulate you Paris Bill. She actually got a upn court set. Everybody is really time critical of got to force his he's actually quite good at these very very narrow determine tasks, but he's not very good at complex thinking. And it's it's almost painful to see her. She doesn't know what to do apart from just bouncing off the wall again, she's just a battering ram fundamentally. She's just going to keep going and keep going until she has a deal through which is everything. Right. Undergo a Bonier said yesterday when he said you need to show us a plan for extension. And instead she comes back and sends an actor my plan is I'm going to try and put my deal with the United. You know, Harry. I want that she might get it through an everyone will hate her. And everyone hate the position we're in levers Andhra, maintenance included. Before we move on. We couldn't let this week's podcast go by without mention of Niger for our March to leave the Gammon boob run as it became known. Maybe two hundred people for its first leg in Sunderland on Sunday by the end of the day, nausea for gymnast. He wouldn't be completing the Marta tool leading leaving friend of the show James O'Brien, describe it as the perfect metaphor for Brexit sixty or seventy poor souls, abandoned, the in weather by wealthy business media and political figures who are back in London, dry war. I'm by Tuesday. There was a crowd funded to pay back the fiscal school people who had paid fifty pounds each to participate. Is it is it wrong? If we find this funny because after all they mock they mocha marches, and they say, they're lightweight tros cues. And so on it, maybe we should refrain from mocking them March. I'd know what what do you think that I disagree with? This this this spr attempt to notify defend who there's about thirty people walking by the sea. I mean, they're not Representative of millions of leave voters. They just people who are foolish enough to believe Najjar fraud is a fucking word. He says Amtrak pay for the privilege of going on a protest. I love what you can do to people who've never gonna protest before. You're like, oh, actually, it's a silver tray protests that you have to actually pay money for. No. Of course, you can start people off of being morons. Fuck may if you can't do that. There's nothing that. One one participant said it's like walking in the Falklands following the flag. Is Nick Kevin's point. If we keep. Mocking law. We sort of make him into making him into a joke figure we underestimate. This is somebody who even VO the full. So apparent is one of the most successful politicians of recent years by the Shia test of actually getting politically he's way, I accept that. And far be it from me, generally speaking. If anyone says Nick Cohen says something then Defoe, I agree with him. However. I do think mockery is a not just a sort of important, but a necessary to in politics, like I can't stand when people whether or my side or the other pop up it'd be like, you really shouldn't do it that way. It's unhelpful is if it's as if it's part and parcel of the abusive coacher, no, I think it's important that in journalism and also by the public themselves that you mock and reduce politicians that is part of the way that democracy has to operate. So whether he's affective on north I think he is a prime target for mockery and the one makes the world a better place by doing so, yeah, I'm not saying anything about the leaf mulch mulches because I'm just going to get into more trouble with Levi's. I was never leave her in the first place. My my head up married and that kind of stuff. So I'm keeping quiet. I've never done ever since one did a school play called for walking class where I was going to about a bunch of berm comprehensive school children who are going to March to London for jobs news, probably the worst play ever dick on a school stage and ever since. And that's put me off Marty's of all also. Could come basically like protests democracy. Tired? We'll play straight for ROY Moore wouldn't trust me. We've anymore. Once again this episode of Romania comes to you with support of beer, fifty two dot com. The world's most popular craft beer discovery club. If detour offering a free case of quality craft beer to every listener. And then new special offer could not be more remained X friendly. This month's election is a special citizens of everywhere case, featuring amazing small batch be collaborations between British brewers and their counterparts across the European Union. Get yours from beer fifty two dot com slash remain. All you pay five ninety five for next day shipping. Citizens of everywhere is the biggest ever pan-european craft big elaboration matching twelve breweries across the UK with the different European country. Each celebrating a different achievement of the in fact, they're doing tap room takeover across the country this very weekend. Find out more citizens of everywhere dot beer, this special beer, fifty two case contains the one of a kind Citra Grizz at a collaboration between Britain's finals fine with a Y and be a blue tech from Sweden. -an there's mango milkshake EPA by tiny rebel from Wales. Versus mount select from France thorn bridge from Sheffield of teamed up with brasserie Delasin in Brussels. And there are many more. That's beer, fifty two dot com. Special citizens of everywhere. Case other maniacs listening. You can try your first case for free you pay only five ninety five next day shipping. There's no minimum commitment. You can just take the free case if you want, and you can pause or cancel at any time. So go to beer, fifty two dot com slash remain to claim yours. There's no better way to toast, the end of Brexit. That's beer five. Two dot com slash rain. New customers only full terms of beer, fifty two dot com slash terms. We're delighted to have lever turned article fifty revoke Rowland Smith on the show this week Rowland. Who do you blame for the collapse of Brexit is it individual leave leaders or the donating reality? Oh, goodness. What's very good question. I think levers for some time have been at war with reality. And I was saying that perhaps though so explicitly during the referendum campaign itself and in the run-up to the referendum campaign. But I was certainly a part of a group pushing the Norway option the was very dismissive of vote leave and business for Britain before them, and what they were saying because it just to us it didn't stack up what was slightly curious is that before the end of January twenty sixteen vote lever actually incredibly soft on pretty much everything. In fact, we were having a go at them for not really wanting to leave at all they were into reform, and they talked about reform all the time. And they talk about second referendums if this got so far, and we needed to ratify what came after it was quite bizarre actually at the time. And then suddenly Cameron steel came back, and they just gradually turned. It wasn't overnight. I think g-o-v speech, I think it was the end of April where he finally ruled out the single market and Cameron's all the banks open free Monday. We're bound to win now for remain. As did I. And but it just went down hill from there. I think once the single market was ruled out there was just no getting back, and they have just doubled down constantly ever since. So he wasn't. Without getting too conspiracy theory about it. It isn't that? They always wanted the hardest possible form of Brexit. And they've just been lying to us about that all the way through its they've gradually moved towards the hardest formed Brexit, here's nothing. So I mean, I personally theories is that none of us thought we were gonna win this. We just weren't going to win. This remain was going to win. It was all about maximizing the percentage. And that was talking about know, we just need to get into the forties. Yeah. Be great. And we can kind of move on from there and migrate. We're saying exactly the same thing privately. This just wasn't that we were supposed to just blow the bloody doors off that the Italian job. And that was what was meant to happen. And unfortunately comings and vote leave just utterly Arte Lee went for it and just told a whole load of shit. I still think to this day the campaign was bloody appalling, everyone leaves thinks it's absolutely brilliant. It was bloodier polling. It's just remained was even appalling. You've described the WTO option. I it's SE. I have no solutions in can't be asked to think option. How did we get to the point where WTO is even an option? Never was an auction as you leave vote leave campaigned and saying it's going to be the easiest deal in history. And we want to deal it's going to be a process, not an event and yada yada, yada. And it was again coming back to this this real softness. I think is just got here because they have not accepted reality. They all still have what I call the leave instinct, which is where all the starts for for levers, in my opinion, and I must stress that's just in my opinion. I have the leave instinct that we are moving towards a country called Europe. And that is the nucleus of all of this. It is not free movement. It is not the money. It is about a country called Europe and identity being stolen. And once you believe that and you start moving down a particular parv, which in this case was coming out of the single market coming out of the customs union, basically coming out of everything having nothing to do with it. And then you get a prime minister. Who wasn't lever? Basically inhaled all relieve narratives of leave courtesy of Nick Timothy then you are on road to nowhere. And eventually you either fess up and say, okay, actually, you know, what this is bollocks. All you just keep going, and you say, okay. Well, everything else has been ruled out. What's left not do? That's what we're going for. Hey, it's gonna be brilliant. It's going to be the best deal ever. And all this complete and utter nonsense. And you just you just paint yourself into a corner, fundamentally, and that's all there is left. This is the end of the road, the leaders flicker of recognition from them. When you I mean, when you say things that are critical in they're not gonna be able to question your credentials from haven't been there in the campaign is there ever a flicker of a, wow, if my own is sort of peeling off that's bad, or you just instantly written offer some sort of traitor Judas. It's mostly the latter. I mean, I tend to be I think it'd be rather, humid. I mean, there was some back channels going on in the campaign had a back channel to someone very senior in in vote leave not not Cummings. No elliot's. But. Yeah. In the end, they we're going to do what they were going to do. We would just kind of people on the edges. I mean, banks humidors, particularly Aaron banks. So he was trying to claim he had bound all of the Brexit groups together. And he was he was claiming that pretty much from September twenty fifty and eventually he went with Norway option, basically flex it by Richard north which was the group was in. And was going to re budget with Richard north, and this was going to be leave dot EDU solution. It was going to be the market solution. We're we're all in the money and everyone's happy. But unfortunately, it just went down in flames within within hours never mind days because everyone in you tip. Just totally attacked and said you must be bleeding mad to go down this route including for ours. And I don't know this. But I think banks was fooled by it. Because Farraj has previously big up the end talked about going to the as a first step, and I'm told on very good authority from within UK, you policy Farraj with still toying with it in the autumn of twenty fifteen and I think banks was just fooled. So it was fundamentally about sovereignty. I think what you were saying amounts in a in a sense to to the idea of sovereignty, but it the reference the referendum booth one on the back of some very different ideas. Like the Jess and opposite Representative freedom of movement. So it moved into that. But what is it? Now what what is the driving force of the leave movement? What is the most important thing that they must hold onto it, it it it still sovereignty or is is it got much wider. No, I think it's still suffering to I think that's always there. It always runs through everything free movement is actually a very recent thing, relatively speaking. And I've been on this thing for thirty years outrageously pleased to young. And you know in the one thousand nine hundred and immigration wasn't a thing. It wasn't the thing emoluments sketchy times during Maastricht it was never about free mental. Well, suffering tape is being put into a position wherever you would never be able to get out again at least not easily. It was about federalism and European superstate. Never closed the union and all those. Yeah. Never never about freedom. Yeah. Absolutely. But you know, this is a I mean it then comes to well, what happened to the Neue from what happened to all that. And was I naive was at group. Not even I think in the end the answer has to be. Yes, I mean euroscepticism has been taken over. And that's what the euro skeptics of all the Maastricht area. Skeptics like me why David Hannan as well. As a whole stream of them that go back a long way for them. Twenty sixteen was making amends from ostrich. It was revisiting Maastricht. It was getting own back. That's what it was. I mean, my Twitter handle originally was white Wednesday, which is a throwback to Blatt Wednesday. That was the eurosceptic name for it in one thousand nine hundred two which was the whole Maastricht. Reagan. But what we had refused to say. I think and what Hanan interestingly, I found it had in a very interesting character, and I do know him from those those old days. He seems to just sort of carry on on this route this master's route just not seeing what's going on around him, and occasionally lamenting what's gone wrong, but never really sort of coming and confronting what has gone wrong. And I think in the end, certainly the whole noise ocean thing, I mean, I've said the Norway option in the end was was actually on reflection just political theory. You look back on it. It was never going to fly. The skeptic. Critique sort of ran out of steam after Lisbon because being street, Abe, eurosceptic what one point of view of the build was was an antagonistic view towards each new treaty each new treaty amendment. Stage-by-stage European Union was taking on more competencies was becoming more complex institutionally and so on treaty after treaty. Well, after Lisbon after there was not going to be animal treaties. If there's probably never going to be a Nova European Union treaty of of the same scale of Lisbon. And so in a way part of the essence of Euro-sceptism Mostra routinely use kept some fellow away. Because it was it was to pit yourself against for next big move of European integration that well fail and pound I robot it was when the u kipps logo was a pant pantheon. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you haven't got a thing to be against you often don't have the same sort of steam, especially what happened. We we've you're skepticism. And so boy every time we swear for Windham came about euro-scepticism in. It's sort of speech Maastricht sense was actually quite dormant. And what then happened were the sort of boy personally think like Balan ISM sort of. Let's break it. Let's say let's see what happens sort of approach fill the void. And another aspect of why US skepticism just disappeared. Was appoint Ken Clarke made when he voted against article fifty notification he says until two years ago one year ago is it it was conservative party policy to push for single market to push for membership of European Union and just very quickly. Very shallow support for veterans wind. And so what you had people coming in who were not historically eurosceptics because the key to skepticism from my point of view was you were skeptical. You aren't absolutely against it. You trying to make it work as a very good point. I mean, just just going back to the nineteen hundred. That's an excellent point. I mean, it was about genuine skepticism. And if you want to about leaving the European Union, I mean, it was just like, you know. I mean, it was just like, you know, trying to find under the counter porn or something or drugs. No, don't go and talk to Fred he talks about that. No one no one cents. It was it was very much either the bruised groups logo speech speech itself, if you look at. You. It's incredibly team. And that was kind of the died guiding lights of the Bruce group, which was actually full of academic is actually back then. So I do tell you I'm in the point about Lisbon as well. I mean, that's that was set to me during the campaign. It's been said to me subsequently. And and I do take the point. I think. Just psychologically, and I come back to this point about we didn't hide didn't make that leap. I just didn't make it. I thought this is this is payback time fundamentally and Lisbon had its own issues that came out of the constitution or the constitution is a state with back to a country, all Europe. And there was the whole thing about Cameron's betrayal, and he was going to give us a referendum. And then he wasn't. So it was just picking up on that. But what we found in the referendum is those of us who were arguing things which we thought euroscepticism it always argued for. It's kind of an after kind of solution. It was kind of technically. Right. But it just lost sight of the politics. Totally when you look at that Kemp now as I do, and you know, I still have an awful lot of sympathy for it. It is it's a technical solution. I it's kind of wool does it stop as paying massive amounts into into the EU coffers themselves. Well, technically, yes, does it only allow us to take on twenty five percent. Or is it ten percent of the laws will technically? Yes. Does it allows the stoppers free movement, technically? Yes, all it's all technically. Yes. An appeals to a kind of technicians mind, which unfortunately, I have I work in the technology sector and also someone who's not really plugged in day-to-day, politics know, really roll street politics, and that is very catcher characteristic. I find with people in that camp. And includes me as well. You know, I've always been someone who learns this stuff for books. I'd I don't go out on the streets, tiresome and tedious, and I'm not physically gregarious person. I quite lime iron company if I'm honest, I'm being myself, and that you want to leave well. Yeah. You kind of learn things from your kids as well. As you get one I have three lovely daughters growing up, and they have their challenges, and that's very difficult. But but they have their issues that we have lots of ADHD in the family and the question's been. Where's that come from? And you know, I'm reading this dog noses thinking shit. That was me. What's the wall? The only point making here is it appeals to a certain type, very intelligent. If I social. Very intelligent slightly on the spectrum. Does everyone is in the technology sector, and it's just the way of things and very much technicians mind, but it is detached from the politics, and it is become detached. And we just missed it. And you can't see any way that it might sort of swing that way. Now with gonna come sessions that are going on between labor, and no no, I don't because it confuses Norway. Plus or common market does not come on wealth too. Never talk about the empire. It confuses with pure Norway, which we were only Norway which comes onto another thing. Which is when did we talk about customs? When did we talk about Northern Ireland? We didn't say nothing and even flex it. Which is incredibly advanced really cannot take that away from north is incredibly advanced. It's the most advanced thing outlet. But in February the south of this campaign body said a thing about it. And that was that was the issue across leave moment. Nobody even thought about it. We've just gone to meetings for years and years and years talking about this island nation, and it turns out we're not actually an island nation that's pretty bloody fundamental around. Noughts around completely that's border. We've seen several of the leave intelligence here recanting in public like all of the Norgrove, and Ben Kelly is there a tipping point or a Walker. Walter Cronkite figure who would change the game with a withdrew their support. Oh, goodness. Me. It would have to be someone very senior. And very visible very credible. And yet you can start to see this is going rogue already. I don't have a big issue with Hanan. I I know how your parades. I we go back quite some way. I'm certainly not friends with him as such, but we go quite close at Oxford in the one thousand nine hundred and had lots of drinks together and whatnot arrange things together and had events. But I I know how your race. And he is he's he's the guy that I thought, and I think I even said at the time if we're going to have any reconciliate reconciliation here remain is have to learn to love them Hanan. Well, that is not going to happen. It just isn't going to happen. I can see it. And in fact, I'm now in the space thinking, if we're going any reconciliation leave as need to learn to love Ken Clarke, it has turned completely hundred hundred years. But I would have said he's. He's not likely to do it at all. But he would be a massive moment. If he came out and said, look I have been for years arguing for an after solution. How has it come to this which you've actually has said in tweets, and recognizing this is the last bit that the hasn't done that it's levers if brought us here it's levers who have doubled down. It is the leave narrative, which he was apart of he was a key figure in vote. Leave the has transferred over to may this is where it has got two daughters to. May to be fair to all she's done actually is put flesh on the slogans that in the end is as I'm not as disastrous in the leave movement as soon as you make a plan flesh. Everyone turns against it. She's also recognized the trade offs. She has actually recognized she's made some trade offs. It's all about free movement, you know, bug and everything else it's about stopping Freeman. So to be kind to fetter she has grasped this in that way. But. I I can't see Hanan moving. Now. He's he's career restaurant it, which is something. Mine doesn't and that is the case for Oliver. And that is also the case with Ben Kelly. We in the end are just three or three blocks out there may in Ben have families. We have mortgages we have normal day jobs. We have come into this via a tech platform Twitter. And it's been a ride it's been a journey. But actually that probably should have been the first warning sign is that we are ordinary blokes we all being elevated. We are being elevated up higher. I'm appearing on news. I'm appearing on Sky News. How did that happen? This is should be long. I mean, there's all sorts of along should've gone. Gone many many years the whole thirty years of this. But that should have been one alarm bell. The end of the show is looming into sight and cannot be delayed. David Allen green has already contributed Brexit time capsule. And now Rowland Smith, it's your turn. What's going into our underground locker things, we'll miss or need if we leave the EU? So I would like to put it in all the terms that we've grown to love. So what sort of terms we had we had the backstop we've had the backstop to the backstop momentum. Stop the Brady amendment Malthouse compromise Malthouse be and I would zone of possible agreement. I would like to get all these batches them up and put them into the times caps. And the reason I say that is because if this comes to an end, then I grant you those very big if but if this comes to an end our lives will lose meaning to some extent, I'm in here a little bit. Experience. This whole experiences provided we don't realize this. But it's providing shape and form and meaning to our everyday lives, and I experienced this when Maastricht so I wonder if David did as well is it comes to an end, and you anything, oh, God there's name or late night votes. And there's no more papers full of things, and it's sort of looking through Ceefax as it was back, then which is sort of weird. Most repeated. Yes, I've met point. Noised aftermath? Strict it would always be too much effort to much cost to for the UK to leave. And so like some sorts of Jacobite coming to terms with Hanover in succession. I just sorta. It's over but set of questions been settled of this. You're not going to be very happy with it future amendments. But the key question of UK being inside or outside of that was the moment, and it went it did go didn't it absolutely went. And the papers. There was you're scanning the times everyday teased by newspapers back then there's nothing in here is empty. Well. My life was then filled because I got married I had kids. Iranian Jewish skepticism about points. And then twenty years later van come across the same people who for twenty. For twenty years ago, but vague. That's exactly an I was one of those people. So I came Argo Meriden ninety nine five life intervened. And I didn't take too much paying too much attention to this. So all I would say is we will miss it. And we'll get to a point where we got to retirement time. We'll meet up, and we'll want to open that time capsule inside log about the motels compromise who was mold house anyway. And I'm starting to us that question even today. And we'll just have it'll just give our lives media and before we fall asleep and finally drift off. In the temps persuade Italian fascist. Not to veto an extension of article fifty this week's European language. Click clip is an Italian or their listener Frank sourby. Thomas says I'm told by Italians, but my accent sands German. So who the hell knows Pushtu melody Brexit known dementia? Karema mile Terry Bill effort Goania cows auto-pay die fell mentally Dacosta. Governor that means the Bill his bloodied Brexit. We will never forget the terrible. Shame inflicted on the country by the failures of this government. Send us your European language? Clips that info Atra maniacs dot com will use the best ones. And that's the end of the show. Thanks to our special guests rolled Smith. That was great fun. Will you come back home for meeting full vote nine whenever it happens? Thanks, David Allen green. What are you going to do with that legal minutiae to worry about if Brexit just with us away, we talked about this earlier, that'd be meeting will your life happened to whatever happens will legal implications are going to carry on for bit. And so and up some point but book will actually come out as well. Which details living leave madness is and idiocies of Brexit going to write them on from almost finished. If every time I come to a natural end to like, oh, I'll just wait to see if there's any new developments, which I'm not expecting Vigne madness idiocy comes out again in a way, which I haven't quite expected Chilcott type inquiry as well. Of course. Yes. So one day people be looking back at this point to learn lessons. And we're also will happen is all the pundits. So many pundits will look back and go, oh that was inevitable along of quitting fact. It's still open. We don't even know what's going to happen. Tomorrow off. Obviously, I emphasize how fascinating visit is. But at some point we're going to have to look back and go, well what actually did go? Go wrong it like we did with Iraq. And at that point. Each would be really quite useful to have time capsule documents because people need to understand at for time, these options open, we didn't know what was going to happen and hindsight's is going to remove fat. Listeners keep an eye on your podcast app. There may be an emergency podcast before the week is out. In the meantime, here's our theme. Tune demon is a monster by corner shop and a salute to some of our Patrie and bekker's see what the March on Saturday. Thanks for meter Robert Stephenson, John honored, Veronica van the worst. Modern tau, Robert. Let's it Jane knows THEO Sanderson sue charman Anderson at Brookwood Hearst. And Nick, and I probably tries to everyone whose names I just catastrophically fucked up. Hello producer. Hello cheese. Sam James Jonathan easer. Tom Kent, not Jack of Kent David Harley, Richard Bordman. Lynn matthews. Robert wells aged Dole's, which is possibly abound. Who knows Killeen pit and Jeff Hogg Antelo for me to Thomas Awa fellow field. John Vassall Xiaodong Daniel block Giles Wilson. Richard Whitehall, Eric new stat, Nick, Brooke and Matt coy. Romania was presented by Ross Taylor with Indians. The producer is Andrew Harrison an Odia production was by me. I like trees Romania is a monsters production.
Unilever Pledges To Reduce Plastic Use; Preparing For A Recession
"Aimed about being forced to abandon his plan to host the G. Seven summit at one of his resorts and he was dismissive of a constitutional clause that forbids federal officeholders from from NPR and Wbz you are I'm Jeremy Hobson Im Tanya Moseley it's here now speaking to reporters before meeting with his cabinet at the White House today President Trump complain affairs that part of the world they should know a good deal about what US policy has been there. Yeah then there's Mick Mulvaney he keeps saying things later in the week possibly other people from the Pentagon and they too are people who have expertise and have had responsibility for Ukrainian Russian spend backpedaling on what he said last week Mulvaney told reporters to get over it regarding political involvement in foreign affairs he then tried to distance himself from those testifies to house investigators tomorrow meanwhile White House Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney continues to walk back comments he made last week about a quid describing this entire situation which he has to know intimately and has certainly intimated that he does know and does have a lot to say about now so getting himself into yet another contortion the argument here seems to be that quid pro quo is some kind of magic incantation like advocate homage and he was actually on Fox News on Sunday how has mulvaney he's backpedaling been going over in Washington not particularly well he keeps trump spoke negatively about the constitutional clause I mentioned this of course comes at a pivotal time for the administration remind US quickly about this clause is tomorrow he was the diplomat who texted Gordon Sunland the message I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign which Oh quo and Ukraine there's plenty to discuss with NPR senior Washington editor and correspondent Ron elving and Ron let's discuss this cabinet meeting for a moment Duffy from the office of Management and Budget on Wednesday as well He has a similar portfolio in that agency and finally Laura Cooper from the Defense Department he is making clear that the president was looking for information about the Biden's looking forward to twenty twenty the White House has recently been trying to make a distinction by happy that he had to pull back on his plans to have the G seven conference next year held at his own resort down in south Florida the Durrell and book description of a quid pro quo and he has tried to walk that back by saying he never said the magic words Yeah Yeah and there's a lot a lot of people are wondering we'll is in reference to the administration's alleged efforts to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Biden's house investigators and what do house investigators hope to learn a billion dollars to be president and that's okay between what I lose in what I could have made I would have made a fortune also former top diplomat to Ukraine William Taylor not who else can we hear from Phil Reeker from the State Department on Wednesday he is the person with the portfolio for Ukraine Russia Eurasian affairs a Michael All it says is the president shouldn't be profiting from being president he shouldn't have business deals going on that make him richer because he's the president of the United States no from Taylor tomorrow first of all they wanna get his testimony on the record first hand of some of this has been coming to secondhand third hand so they really want to get him Republicans yet many of the Republicans as well and we'll talk a little bit about that support but I wanNA talk a little bit about the impeachment inquiry a reminder for folks William Taylor testified when the UK there is more brexit uncertainty House of Commons speaker. John Berko today rejected Prime Minister Boris Johnson's request for another vote on his brexit deal action is conditioned on another action you do this I'll do that and there is no necessity to say any magic words in Latin what Mulvaney said last week was attacked thing is therefore the motion will be debated today as he would be repetitive and disorderly to do so oh you mean that's a word we don't usually use anymore and the president apparently attacked this as quote the phony emoluments clause in the constitution because he was on the United Kingdom is scheduled to leave the European Union next Thursday October thirty first I spoke earlier with BBC political correspondent Rob Watson and asked him what today's ruling from finding Ukraine that's what we were asking them to look into nothing in the future so they're going to want William Taylor to weigh in on that and there are other folks on that list as well that Democrats d'abre and that if you don't say the magic words there's no there's no problem so look quid pro quo is a lawyer term for any arrangement where one Congress where do you think this will go from here there are lots of people who are saying that they no longer are supporting him they're still supporting him with respect to impeachment Berko said the request was basically the same as the one debated and decided on Saturday when lawmakers voted to delay approving Johnson's latest deal here's Berko my rude president demanded that this morning and I think probably at this point most of them are going to stick that's NPR senior Washington editor and correspondent. Ron elving thank you Ryan Thank you Tony I saying twenty twenty two thousand sixteen we were really just looking into that missing server that the Democrats lost back in Twenty fifteen twenty sixteen that's what we were trying to action but neither of those options included no deal brexit I I would think that is unlikely as I say it's not impossible but if you think about it so mister Johnson's hoping he'd be on the chopping block because we have seen it before I guess time will tell a with the twenty seconds we have left with you there's been lots of dissent between the White House and Republican members of the deal is so small and given the sort of the challenges and complexity of the law and the complexity and challenges of getting stuff through parliament's is now the entire and this he said was the very best place to have it and everyone was going to be better for it and he did it for the country and now we had a pullback because he got a lot of criticism including from anybody Johnson will in the NBA able to find a small majority that is an enable to get his deal through parliament either on the thirty first of October or whether a longer now here's where we are it seems to me we're going to find out there are two possible avenues between now and when Britain is supposed to leave the EU on the thirty first of October either Mr is that they want to do but but I suspect when push comes to shove if Britain hasn't been able to do that by the thirty first of October and it may well be able to I'm pretty speaker Berko means for Brexit we know that everybody listening knows Boris Johnson reach this deal never mind whether it's good or bad when with the EU last week world is witnessed from the UK the United States and beyond there is the other path is that the whole process collapses and the has to be a general election during some extensions of the brexit process. It's those two things you many either gets is deal in the next couple of weeks also all all thing collapses and we have another generally is Boris Johnson I'm five years old and I've been very northey and I think even now Mister Johnson's supporters would either smile at that one but but serious serious point with the he's either going to get his deal through parliament between now and the next few whatever it is how many days left the thirty first of October possibly technical extension if that doesn't happen from NPR sponsor mind body mind body connects millions to the widest variety of local fitness classes and the offer the same experience when it comes to falter we'll be broadcasting from the BBC next Wednesday Thursday and Friday this message aside and Acupuncture Spas and salons find book and pay all in one place owners can join the network at mind body online dot V. E. would grant an extension one more thing rob there was a huge protest in London over the weekend maybe hundreds of thousands of people saying sign it and then sent another letter basically saying I didn't mean what I said in the first that's right and you know no one could say that we Brits have lost our sense of humor because I I was the maker of big brands like dove soap vaseline and Ben and Jerry's ice cream is now making I I smiled at night because I read I then read something from an opposition Labour politician who said that there was a mystery third lesser that Mr Johnston written saying my name doc but the there was a letter that had to be sent later on Saturday by Boris Johnson to the EU bylaw asking for an extension and he sent the letter but didn't Sri wrestles with the demands of consumers like you and me who are frustrated by throw-away packaging the big question now how will they do it joining us now is part of our series of conversations with leaders called view from the top is Richard Slater he's Unilever's chief research and Development Officer Richard Welcome to here now climate crisis that we're dealing with your company relies heavily on commodities like palm oil soybeans and dairy this idea of cutting plastics they want another vote by the people on the issue of Brexit. That's right I mean I m people said it was probably around a million who certainly seemed technical extension and Britain will leave the European Union the other path is the other avenue the other possibility it seems to me that the majority any likely majority he has a bold pledge Unilever the third largest global consumer package goods company says by twenty twenty five it will cut in half its use of non recite else new forms and formats is going to involve I think helping people make the right choice making it easy for people around our labeling offering great solution one presumes that reluctantly the European Union will Grozny extensions the brexit process because they don't want no deal and then of course in the UK we would have to have it we're gonNA find out the answer to that in the next few days but I don't think there yet and so I think a second referendum would only come if the entire brexit process if you like between what was said in two thousand sixteen by the very people now leading the UK government is so wide that they're not happy and I think that will store up trouble it's really a big next step in it's actually a very bold promise because we've all found how hard it is to reduce the number of plastics in our everyday lives news What are the differences in what are you asking people to do as you move through an offer these other options that don't rely so heavily on plastics then you go into I think the more innovative examples you were talking about so in laundry for example using concentrates where we have to get used to maybe having buying yeah now that's a great question I think in to some of this it involves very little change for people so if you think of your Helman's Mayonnaise Your Ben and Jerry's for the brexit tears in the months and years ahead that's BBC's political correspondent Rob Watson in London Rob Thank you and we will see you next week in London thank you very large to me so here's what I would say about that at the moment I just don't think that the numbers are quite there in parliament for that to be a vote for second referendum gold or virgin plastics it also pledges to collect and process more used plastic packaging than it sells over the next six years this comes as the goods in a little bit but I really WanNa talk about how the everyday consumer will be impacted what will this look like for the consumer for instance with the everyday products that we waiting for this reason that they feel that the the the deal that was reached by Mr Johnson with the European Union as they would say is so different to what was promised by vote leaving com slash NPR mind body your access to the largest consumer wellness network and marketplace general election just bring us back to Saturday they were calling it Super Saturday in the UK there were supposed wife you've probably had to work all day long for example Aluminium Deodorant Paco or a superb looking Skin cleansing product pack could stay out proudly by the sink Lucia Planet Products Oil seven generation laundry product. The idea is to move as far as possible two hundred percent recycled content unto mate these recyclable so really there were people can make the right choice without really changing any behavior which simply asking the where is available people then recycle sixty percent less plastic seventy-five lighter and so it's a little bit of a habit and behavior change there to to utilize concentrated pack and twenty sixteen they said it would be easy we'd keep all the same economic benefits that would be no threats to the unity of the United Kingdom I mean remains fill the distance absences and there's a general election and then possibly referendum but here's a bigger point I would make about it I think one of the reasons why the brexit tears are in so much trouble even if they get go right through two examples that I know you've talked about before like Luke where we actually effectively we continue to own a pack of very high end that Brexit is that people on the main side I think that finding it very hard to accept the results of the referendum I mean leave it was say because they're bad losers how do you plan to do it yeah we'll the goals we've announced you're right they are I'm vicious and stretching surrounds using plastic where we use plastic we want it to be all a pack on the shelf that lasts just long but in in laundry for example in seventh generation we've got concentrates coming to market the half half the water it's a spot that innovation and drive internally and also to stimulate the whole system of partners in the ecosystem outside as well let's talk about that innovation sometimes that requires a lot of plastic how has your company and how will your company navigate this in terms of you so better answer that question so that the EU they would dearly love Brenta just got this this deal agreed to get on with Brexit and then we can all then they can get on with what it is recyclable as possible and also use recycled content onto collecting process MOLNAR footprint so it's going to involve innovation is going to actually get consumers to use these refillable containers and then get refills delivered like the milk used to be but it's going to cost more for the consumer yeah I think it's a great question because you know my philosophy with all of this as we need to make it really easy and seamless people so I think we've got in general around the sort of waste collection processing and packaging in the US it's a complex landscape today actually and as you know it varies by state it so this is to make sure that plastic isn't seen as a commodity that can just be thrown away and wasted effectively is plastic wastes the issue here not offer fantastic solutions that convenient and the right price now for loops are very specific example early days in piloting it if you bought a refill so you have I use of normally cycle division plastic as you said earlier and so we creating through a large demand for recycled thank you great to be with you Richard Unilever for several years now has marketed the issue of sustainability as an important value in the face of this cereals and not over packaging but it but it is a complex landscape and working through the moment one other big part of this pledge is to collect back and process more of the used plastic packaging how will your company actually reused that plastic yeah we will also look it's a not how much water plastic and transport involved so I think the emphasis on us as as consumer companies to innovate and come up with solutions that are great from the US and we actually heard from an investigative reporter Sharon Lerner from the intercept she talked with us about how very little partnerships and investments and that will be in countries like the US Europe but also where the waste infrastructure isn't strong today some of the developing world change one big battle environmentalists have been fighting is to change the strict regulations here in the United States over the packaging of foreign goods people there are the it will in some cases need a bit of behavior change and shift but if we make it easy for people and bring people along than I think we can we can affect the doc markets like India Indonesia South East Asia have you found any challenges with that because we know that China isn't taking recycled plastic anymore is something we're very active in in terms of looking to influence the whole system invest in recycling infrastructure and also to work with the people that have less plastic and or even know plastic I'm getting ready creative and innovative and that's what he's going to take and that's part of the reason we've made the big the big announcement section all here that we have to get rid of plastics thinking about industry-wide have you all talked about collaborations or coming together or even all of the recycled plastic and the US is actually reused has it been a challenge for you and finding those partnerships with other countries as we learn more about recycling getting a lot of local demand in the US for the material and what we're actually seeing with our commitments and others and also with China's but goal is not elimination of plastics if we can keep plus circular than that's important important reason for that is if you simply them positive investment and change the whole system and we're actually we're able to move our entire portfolio is Unilever to fifty percent recycled We pick up and provide regular refills too that with minimal to no plastic yes we actually feature that company on here and now we featured loop accepting gifts from foreign states I don't think you people with this phony emoluments laws and by the way I would say that it's cost anywhere from two to five and we always aim to buy utilize our material locally wherever we can so if you take the US for example helmets moving such a huge company and I'm interested to know if you have heard or talk to other industry leaders about the use of plastics and just the sheer volume of plastic. Yeah I mean we're always looking to partner an invest where he can make most difference on the for recycled material and then that helps the investment story in the business case for collectors and purses is one of the whole in ace tissue we're really committed to an environment free of plastic waste we need to use then plus it responsibly mayonnaise me from two one hundred percent recycled content Ben and Jerry's Love Beauty Planet these examples are moving towards one hundred percent recycled content therefore breath regulators and government to make a difference there you know to make the right rules and regulations and the support recycling use of me don't plastic if we can keep plus circular than actually we keep the volume the system and we don't create that waste issue in the environment so so that so mentioned the intercepts share learner she said the head of our in D. at Pepsi Company told the plastics industry leaders at a conference that quote we all for a homecare products or laundry product in theory can actually even be cheaper for people to use because offensively not only we're getting those environmental benefits it's actually cheap turn by the end of this year which is a major achievement earned big step along the way to to waste free Unilever is said in trading ideas on how to get through this yet great question one thing I think we should be really clear on plastic immaterial so we're looking to fix sort of a helper and improved both sides of the circle if you like the system so one is to create a lot of demand policies recently is there's actually investment going into the US and surprise to sing and waste collection so although it's been challenging situation it's actually creating the simplistic view of trade off with another material and replace all plastic glass or metal is going to have adverse environmental impacts in other sources say no way transport energies Cetera so we have to take a balanced view on if there are technologies that we can share or others can share that can make a difference we cast terms conditions and quality standards apply financial markets have been weighed down lately getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates gently announced pledge to half its use of non recycled plastics by twenty twenty five Richard Thank you for joining us thank you so much and when you need to hire fast accelerate your results with sponsor jobs new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR pod in October of two thousand seven it's just nearly impossible to try to figure out when to get back in so what we know is that over the long term market questions is there a recession coming and what should I do with my money Jill Schlesinger is our business analyst with CBS News and host of Jilin Money and she senators these anxieties about the economy and joins us with some advice. Hi Jill Hello Okay so you've been giving people financial advice for a long time how spooked her folks industry rather than simply changing Unilever so for bronze light resume talks to be able to recycle the packaging around those so that's an example I think the headline it starts to a nervous and the real issue is because we are human beings we want to do something with that anxiety I would say that a couple of times this message comes from NPR's sponsor indeed when it comes to hiring you don't have time to waste you need help ended up doing a great job and the real reason why is it even if you're lucky enough to get the first part of the equation correct let's say you are smart enough to sell timing the market and what we have learned time and time again is that those folks who are trying to out guess or find the next move in the markets they just never so much age based but it is as you say when you need the money and I agree I think that there are some folks who are saying to themselves hey wait a second we're in this really long bull market would concerns about the trade war with China the impeachment inquiry Brexit I could go on and on it's a long list but people who worry about these things tend to have too big year it's gotten to sort of a blinking red ish feel and that is just happened last week when someone called my podcast they said what should I do too for Armageddon and it was like okay and you're telling me that's happening probably not call me right right exactly I know so let's talk a little bit about some solutions when people fear a recession the instinct is let me pull all of my money out of the market but you say that's a fool's errand y you know this is just some variation on the theme called H who may be thinking they just WanNa take all of their money out of their four one K. is your advice different for those folks you know I think that it doesn't have to be to allow that material to be recycled that's in in trials at the moment and we'll share that with anybody out there to try and change the whole timing just does not work and anyone who says they can predict the top and the bottom is basically pulling your leg I'm actually thinking though about those at retirement age agree with you I really think that we should be collaborating in the St Louis Richard Slater is Unilever's chief research and development officer he is the man behind the company's re right now compared to moments of uncertainty in the past a you know we go through these things and I get you know every time there's a big move in the markets or Abi I'm going to wait until the next bear market to make move well no that's not the smart advice but the right advice is to imagine this I've got some money in my 401k or IRA I don't need all that money. The day I retire in fact my retirement is just the beginning of the next phase of my financial life and phase can last an awfully long time you might retire when you're sixty seven years old and lived twenty or twenty five more years so what we're really talking about is due you have the appropriate amount of risk that you can really tolerate going into that period for those folks who are just carrying a whole bunch of risk right now young or old you just feel like wait a minute this gotten ahead of me I need to make a change that's okay but stick to that allegation going forward don't second guess yourself yeah with less life pay down consumer debt including your student loans try to accelerate that build up that emergency reserve fund six to twelve months of your living expenses and take of his than twenty seconds what's one smart money move that folks can also make right now given this uncertainty I would say just pay attention to the three big things in your financial both parties joining us now is Democrat who lost her Senate seat last year in North Dakota to a Republican who has been very supportive of president trump former mm-hmm and they want to do it as quickly as possible right now house Democrats haven't formerly voted on impeachment they've only started an impeachment inquiry and there are big political stakes president trump said today the Democrats want to impeach Democratic Senator Heidi heitkamp welcome thanks so much for having me on well first of all do you think looking at what's going on with the impeachment inquiry right now and looking for on exactly where this whole thing falls out but I think that the Democrats have clearly coalesced around actually conducting the inquiry which will save that the president was not aware however what we've seen so far is is incredibly troubling and I think once we get to the public hearings we're going to have a much better idea such action as you can in contributing to your retirement thank no it's hard yeah little bit yes Jill Schlesinger business analysts for CBS News and host Joel isn't true a month and a half ago and so give me a sense of what you're hearing from people in your home state of North Dakota do you think that there is any appetite for the investigations that are ongoing there may be something that exonerates this president there may be things that are told that would forward that there's any chance that the Democrats don't end up impeaching this president you know I think that everybody is got kind of the cart before the horse basically driven by the president they have a constitutional obligation to do their job of checks and balances I'm just saying that they also have their obligation states in this country North Dakota does it concern you that Elizabeth Warren who is on the left wing of the Democratic Party that she's doing as well as she is in the primary process Johny Twenty and the Democratic primary that's going on there's a new poll from Suffolk University and USA Today that shows former vice president Joe Biden and Senator Elizabeth Warren next didn't rural America I think it's across the board people just want things to be more normal so it seems like what you're saying is your message to the Democrats would be don't move impeachment right now I think there's two groups one the president is getting picked on he's our guy and even people like Senator Kramer who defend him repeatedly talking about it and this none of this is helpful in moving the country forward and so I think there is a level of exhaustion in America and I don't think it's just board with impeachment based on that no I think that I think the speaker absolutely has a point when she says I wasn't looking for this it was handed to me it was Lee dangerous to look at Iowa and just look at public opinion polls you've gotta look at what's happening on the ground and who's got the best organization and by all accounts neck in the early state of Iowa Biden with eighteen percent warren with seventeen percent what do you make of that I think it's Shen to make a very targeted and I think specific case for why this president should be removed at the ballot box and one of the concerns that I have is that teach meant basically sucks the oxygen out of the room in making the case for why Democratic leadership would be better for this country okay so let's talk about uh-huh about a major initiative like Medicare for all then we've missed the message and that's the danger the danger is that this has to be a referee so far I mean she's not breaking out she's in competition with a whole lot of other people and again when you when you look at those numbers both binder a lot of people being more direct about their message you saw already with senator close shower and I think mayor Pete moving forward so there's a lot of times holing below twenty percent and that's pretty remarkable and so let's not overstate it I think that she has a message she's clear about why she's doing it that and exhaust all reason in defending him they're still not defending Munaf and then there's a second group I wish it would all go away I'm so tired of conditions and we're GonNa take away your Medicaid expansion which has been critically important to rural health care we need to make this about the president and his policies not just the between now and the Iowa caucus do you think though that the Democrats and Republicans who say that Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders would not be able to win against president trump. Do you think that they're right no I don't think they're right I think that everybody needs to take a deep breath and realize that if this be Elizabeth and Mayor Pete and Swipe expect that what we're going to see the is a mixed results out of Iowa but we're also going to see a lot of candidates compelling to people because they are tired of people who will talk around issues and not address them directly so I expect that what we're going to see will be on any government insurance and so let's move ourselves forward in terms of The direction of universal coverage without doing dramatic get things within the current tax code that advantage very very wealthy people things like the difference between earned and under did come in terms of tax rates there's a whole countries that have actually imposed wealth taxes the majority of them have backed off because it didn't achieve the results that they hoped so my advice is look take a look what they would do well they're not doing well does it concern you at all as somebody who represented a state that as you've said is further to the right than than a lot of we're buying that we're not getting good results from but it also gets the president off the hook he's in court right now saying we're going to eliminate your protections on pre exist and on this president and the frustrating part for me is when I listen to this argument about who's going to pay for healthcare number one it doesn't address how much healthcare corruption and not just the crazy that comes out of the White House but how he is hurting Americans every day with the policies that he's promoting but if it is a warrant or a sandy the high even among Republicans You know I'm a former tax commissioner from North Dakota so I look at this kind of from how do you administer it and I think you'll see that the attic things that are going to frighten people and take the focus away from what the president's doing which is taking away healthcare from millions and millions of people in the this country what do you make of what Warren and Sanders are saying about taxing the rich right now they're they're talking about Elizabeth Warren and Ultra Millionaires Hannah who in the last debate many times reminded voters where he's from here is but this is why people here in the Midwest are so frost political challenges and I think that's what he's saying in he's from Indiana I'm from North Dakota we understand that Democrats used to win those states but they won by being a paper published today in the Journal current biology identifies the world's loudest bird it's the male white they are true believers will see what Elizabeth says today or in the next couple of days about how she's GonNa pay for this but I think at the end of the day they are who they are capable or that were better than the next person but we do come with a different perspective if you grew up in the Midwest and also I think a greater sense of the tax people would pay a two percent tax on every dollar they have over fifty million dollars is that something you think makes sense for the party to get behind right now I'll tell you as polls there's that ends up getting the nomination do you see them backing off of their medicare for all plan to try to appeal to a general election electorate no I don't I mean I think tastes and by not over promising things they couldn't deliver and so I think if you look at what his message really was it wasn't one of superiority knocking doors and I think he is surging that is Heidi heitkamp who's the former Democratic senator from North Dakota thank you so much for joining us you bet thank you but he's been at thirteen percent for awhile and again in Iowa I look at who is the ground game who has the enthusiasm who has people who are true believers we look at you know the majority of people in this country would love to be on Medicare if they could my point is there's a fair number of those people who don't want to be the things that you can be talking about that actually achieve I think a better result but like I said this is enormously popular not just among Democrats and indeed ah that's what makes them compelling candidates the question is can they sell those policies it's going to be up to them to sell those policies Bernie constantly reminded this bird had a six pack the Burj Abdomen was five times thicker than that of a normal bird clearly had to be morning session expertly mimicking a few tunes from his Repertoire Amazonian songs do you think that he could be a surprise winner in Iowa Yup I do you know it was interesting nate silver today said look
What does this week's Brexit vote actually mean?
"Spectators daily politics, but cost is by hardman, and I'm joined by Katie booze and James for safe. Now this week we have another big vote on Brexit. But it's not the meaningful vote on Brexit. Katie. What does this vote mean? So this is thanks to motion that was passed. And what it means is the government data motion on Brexit and empties can add their in amendments. And some of these any political force seventies amendments are saying what they would like the highest today where they would like to see the government day and a few of them would have ledge to force. So if they were passed and peace would vote on a Bill the government would then be pushed into doing something. So it wouldn't be a choice of the right? So there's a range of the two that currently look the most likely to pass or at least a two which have the highest John's on one side the vet keeper amendment, which is trying to take no deal off the table. Now that has forced beyond just political. And that means that is that poces if licked like the government was heading to the NATO Brexit. They would have to try and extend to fifty at the moment that is by nine months, but there are talks going on from the labour front bench keeper chime at two free months because I think a little bit more palatable to explain to people that delaying Brexit potentially. Then that doesn't mean that stopping Brexit, basically. Well, it doesn't mean as some people think is can be used to stop Brexit, was wise made people nervous because you're alternately saying that in that she had a deal you not going to leave and you can extend it probably more than once. So that's why the nine month figure is particularly skydiving lots people actually think that will ever happen. Probably delay Brexit by free months just legislation for says not as as big a deal. And then on the other side, she had the Graham Brady amendment as revealed by James on coffee has which basically means that all the Brexit tears coming together. And that saying that. They would support the deal if you replace the backstop with alternative arrangements. So the idea that you wouldn't be stuck in the backs indefinitely as still some debate over what cancel tend to arrangements, depending on which Brexit speak to. But the hope is that they can get the DP and the BreX test back that show there is a majority in the highest fool Theresa May's deal on the proviso that you change the backstop, and there's a belief that might help gang concession from Brussels. Dame's what's the most likely situation when MP's vote tomorrow, I'm inclined to the Muslim majority or anything that would be most in keeping the process, so far I think that case at the two amendments that are on a knife-edge foot? The versuns- moves a little bit depends on what John Burke decides to call. There is both keepers amendment down on Tehran's hate no deal for table on one dollars from Carlisle. Bellman dreamy the currents Bowman Jack driving one frankly doesn't have any teeth. I'm for that reason it we're certainly points if John berko selected it, but I suspect given John berkers views. He would he would prefer the motion that actually had consquences and teeth Robin the one that doesn't so he's putting more lights pit Cooper. I think it is very touching over poces. Then you Brady now the mass o'brady the Brady amendment all challenging even for them. What is a hind at the master still challenging because first of all they're all depending on who you doesn't that report? Fifteen twenty people in the G who would vote against any deal. Come. What may almost they always actively prefer not to anything else at the same time? They're all been about nine or ten Tories who want to second referendum. They probably wouldn't they wouldn't vote for Brady again. Come what may? So what you're doing is even if you get the DP onboard and the vast bulk. VR g and the government which would be big moment for the gunman because it would essentially be saying that they won't they won't fundamental changes the backstop, which we know is that position. But this this is more than just a bit more clarity on the exit mechanism. You still need quite a few labor votes to get this Fru. I think that's why you've seen in recent days. You know, extra protection for parents coming back to work. You see lots of little things which are sent and the the waving of the Vive es in terms of applying for permanent settled status in the UK. What you're saying? Here IS NUMBER ten trying to show on SAFA isn't the top line. Stop it isn't the customer union. They're prepared to give her MP's in order to get bit more support in the hope is that might help him a few labor votes that might just get is over the line. But but the mass on play for these amendments is very tough. And I always think the most difficulty in the comment is how do you tell? Whether people who are uncomfortable something while without abstain away against one of the reasons threes maze defeat went down to such a heavy. It was almost nobody abstained pretty much. Everyone voted one or the other. What we don't know about keeping Brady Brady's whether people have doubts about them will abstain vase against and whether whether they pose think well tongue on that very hard to read five Katie what as trees amaze approach at the moment to she trying to get as many Euro-sceptics in her party to support her. She tried to reach out across the comments. She's trying to get your skeptics support her and trees made made the decision after saying cross party talks and having some cross party too. Is that because they didn't go very well. She never intended for them to go very well. I think she went through the motions I think to some degree that she had to forces. And it's been quite loud reported over the weekend. That does some number ten he would like her to go look for labor votes. But there's also a strong very loud contingent which involved chief whip the. Posse chairman, perhaps even to raise maize and husband. He think that will push the party to breaking point so bench face choice of latching probably closer to labor BreX position of a permanent customs union threes. My husband decided to try and bring back together, the conservative MP and DP alliance as she still needs to get labor votes on that. But what was saying with things like the Brady him is a an attempt to take that loss of two hundred thirty votes and show to Brussels that don't read it as going for softer Brexit, which is higher. Lots in Brussels reading it instead of read it that we can get this fruit while keeping the Tory party together. He just changed the backstop also of notion that drove we made it easier for because Jeremy Coleman when you've lost one hundred sixteen votes. Right. You can't falling hundred sixty position votes for anything official position playing ball from the moment recordings at all. I'm not coming to today Tate. No deal for table for the classic condition. He knew she couldn't take out. He made love easier. For her because it wasn't if it's up on cheese. They said, right. You've lost vote on not good call confidence now, but I'm going to reassure to you what I said labor conference, which is if you go for a pump customs union and dynamic of the workers rights and environmental protection, I will whip my piece about fuel deal that point may would come under huge pressure to take the deal. But instead he chose gave for confidence vote which going to reset politics back to it's going to tribal default and made it clear is worth telling him David leading Tim leading corresponded to the government. This is someone who who would be intensely relaxed about customs union even e- concluded that that wasn't a majority for it in the Commons without a the official labour party position being favor. Voting amazed deal plaza customs union and also because the yes, they're all three hundred twenty six customs union, but lots. One of the things the other MP's would find unacceptable. So you didn't free movement that loses. You somebody's I didn't second referendum about these as you think relaunch votes. But I think is the problem. We've got Boris Johnson's telegraph column as well in which he's proposing his own plan. Katie yet Boris Johnson has rested on the surface. Looks like a Saudi helpful caught him factories may because he is that if Theresa May indeed is he is head so strongly from senior dynasty sources who he does not name and reopen their drawers agreement. Something brussels. Don't want today, then she'll be a hair. Oh, everyone will come round celebrate. And she had the backing of many many Brexit is actually puts to resume in a tight spot though. Because with this Brady, which is getting to the back stop. There is a division in the Breck stick amp of walk cancers attend arrangements to the backstop say there's some took affir- codicil. So what you do is have a separate agreement which would be legal. And they'd laugh a cost withdraw agreement any light. Now, there's some Brexit such as birth Johnson. He'll I think that would probably struggle to be sufficient for they want to wrote agreement property reopened. And there's a suggestion here because Boris is urging Theresa May to let me know exactly what she is asking for for ahead of the vote on the Brady amendment that she's going to have to say and their full that might of some Brexit is in the process. So I think actually made probably put more pressure on ten because it saying we don't want just vote saying you gotta try and do something on the backs. We've heard that. Now, we want you to say exactly what you're doing. And I think depending on what number ten said, they would gain more Brexit is the USA could lose some of as they think is unrealistic. Classes this both. Since he's unique species in politics. He's basically an important is taking his private conversations until the proof is still very jealous and turn them into a front page. Splash Daily Telegraph saying this is telling me like to do in private. I'm gonna keep it private. I'm going to put it publicly as Katie says puts more pressure on number ten climate. I think one of them to movie happy about is the Boris's now. Now his objections down to the backs. It used to be the objected to a whole bunch more obvious deal than just the backstop, and that will give them some soccer number ten that people who used to say, oh, it's not just the battle. Like, this is on our you do waiting all of our attention the Basle Jesse. If she he get it change that which is not an easy almost by any stretch, the nation by no means, particularly if she could get that. Then she would be business. Thank you, James. And thank you, Katie. And you can listen to this podcast on the I chain store. It's called coffee house. Shots. But you'll ready waiting to hear about our author, which I don't think you've heard enough about the past few weeks, and I have bad news, which is at it's nearly over the end of this month, which is this week. You will not be able to claim your amazing twelve issues of the spectator for twelve pounds. Plus, a free twenty pound Joan Lewis Faucher, don't sit there with your calculator workout. How that works out for us. Just go to spectator dot coach Kaye Ford slash voucher to claim your wonderful offer. Thanks for listening and do join us again to Maury.
Explainer 157: Oh Brexit, where art thou?
"Uh-huh. The beginning of this week, and such is the effect. Brexit has on our perceptions of time the beginning of this week. Now feels like something that happened before the ball war. There was a gathering consensus that didn't you want to the Brexit fiasco was at last looming. The UK's Prime Minister Theresa may now making the limbless and defiant black Knight from the one and the holy grail seem model of philosophical pragmatism was seeking to put her EU withdrawal deal to parliament full the third time uncowed by the fact that its previous to submissions had resulted in the biggest and fourth biggest defeats ever inflicted on British governments Bill the is to the right. Two hundred forty two the nose to the left three hundred ninety one. View was nevertheless forming but maize plan for another. Go was not quite as mad as it sounded that with the March twenty ninth deadline looming. All but the most crazed of Brexit ahead. Bangers would understand that maze? Root out of the EU was now the only one realistically on offer and fall in behind it, a vote cast reluctantly counts the same as any of them. They might still have been a delay. It is far from clear that parliament has time to enact all necessary legislation before much twenty nine but the two thousand and sixteen referendum result would be honored. The UK would be leaving the EU may had emphasized and correctly that any delay without defined end. Would risk this blessed event not occurs toll. And as I say there is a danger. Failure to agree. A deal that actually could end up in a situation where we have no Brexit as. On monday. However, the speaker of the house John berko in the manner perhaps of a boxing referee, taking mercy only battered barely conscious contender and calling the fight confounded may scheme. Bucko invoked a splendidly vintage president of parliamentary procedure dating back to sixteen four which precludes governments from pestilential repeat introductions of bills previously voted down. The government kennel legitimately do is to resubmit to the house the same proposition ball substantially the same proposition as of last week, which was rejected by one hundred forty nine. Thanks main seemed genuinely surprised by coz intervention, though, she should not have been mostly because berko a piece to have a legitimate point. But at least, partly because throughout the Brexit process bucco has given every indication of very much in. Enjoying the bright of the neutral spotlight has shown upon the speaker's chair. Unless substantial changes were made to Theresa May's Bill ruled berko, it would not be readmitted, given that substantial changes to not seem possible without the acquiescence of the EU who have already made it clear that they won't be any that would appear to be it. Unless inevitably this being Brexit. It isn't. As we go to a various ruses being suggested for dragging maze. Withdraw agreement back into the ring including vote to overrule. The speaker will even asking the Queen to prorogue the current session of parliament and then open a new one. Although again with barely eight damn days to go until Brexit is supposed to happen. It is debatable that there is much more time for such nonsense. If it's hard enough to make sense of what has happened making sense of what will happen is like teaching dog to play the banjo. You can try, but what would be the point. It's possible to say what the possible outcomes are the current default of a no deal Brexit, an orderly Brexit next Thursday as planned a delay to Brexit general election, a second referendum, but such has been the up ending of logic by breaks that VO one of these surely has to occur. They all seem somehow unlikely we have reached the point at which an invasion of England by Scotland wouldn't seem all that surprising on balance and mood in many respects be a relief. Meanwhile in keeping with the satirizing tradition, which has characterized Brexit from the off this past weekend. The unrig generate Brexit ultras of the leave means leave campaign commenced, an epic March from Sunderland to London to protest what they perceive as the imminent, betrayal. In miserable. Cold, pouring, rain. The few dozen would be golden souls who reported for the March to leave as it is known will lead by Nigel Farraj at least for about the first five hundred yards. Very arguably, not the first time Farraj has got a bunch of credulous saps round up about some vainglorious fully and then left them to when the going tough. As we go to where little is known of whatever survivors applauding grimly own on shed. Joel seeming they have not given up a run wild and resorted to cannibalism these full-on footsore stragglers shortly June Pontefract, they are entitled to observe. However that lonely wet and or deluded though, they may be they have a better idea of where they're going than the rest of the country. Does. Twenty four. I'm Andrew Miller.
141. THE ZOOM WHERE IT HAPPENS: building a digital society for all
"This as reasons to be cheerful with ED milliband Jeff. Hello Hello how are you? I'm well. How are you? How's the family? Has Tony well actually? We had a real dog this week. What yes a real dog! Dylan, who we occasionally sit for our neighbors, she they they. They stopped being our neighbors. They moved out for few months while the house was being out. And you know it's interesting because I death and. Just? Did the launch of the work with La Belle busy working, but but she was busy touring what to, but the I accepted that Dylan was only going to be brought on condition i. Could just do nice kind of Pats, but didn't have any responsibility. But I really really liked having him here. It, was really good for my mental health how Chutney react to have another dog in the house to get jealous. I kept saying Chutney. Don't be Jealous I. There will some sort of you know? There were a few issues I said look. We love you as much as we did before, but you know Dylan's just hit for the day I, mean they? They had they had some sort of staking each other out situations going on. So I was the invisible dog sniffing the real, Domo vice versa. What you mean by invisible Jeff. What what does that mean you denying my reality and wet wet? Does Dylan Sleep at night when when? He said he didn't stay actually this time. But when he does what he's, let downstairs. Right in the kitchen. What should you? Going to look y'all. Have! You Been I've been find nothing to to report. Particularly I tell you I did as a called a few friends in Sweden this week just to catch. It's not been going so well. Well, what was interesting is everybody I spoke to is. kind of like minded similar progressive. Of Person and they were all extremely supportive of the Swedish approach and the and the technical. WHO's the epidemiologist? So they were quite defensive about whether not even defensive. I mean they just. They just seem to genuinely think he's. He's doing a good job. You know there are definitely critics of him over that, but at the same time he's. He's become this hero two Swedes. They were telling me that. Young hipsters, a and the technical tattoos. Well, then you should get one of the young hipster. Chris Witty Tattoo now I I was gonna say the relationship between Sweden and undertake millions obviously very similar to the relationship of Britain to dominate Cummings. Notes Right. On this week's show. This we were talking about how the coronavirus crisis has affected our reliance on the Internet and digital connectivity of the loss few weeks. Lots of US have become much much more dependent than ever needs an obvious to stay in touch with people. What from home shop? An educated insane I kids? We'll be discussing how we could have been better prepared. However Lonzo needs net will change in the long term and had to prevent this leading to a new new forms of inequality. I explore why Estonia known as the world's most advanced digital society was better place so that social distancing the most countries given how much they were already doing online. Then we're talking to Hell A. From the things foundation about how the law few months of Expos new divides digital access, and what she thinks, it's time to treat inch base utility. Then we're talking to Stanford economist Nick Blue about why he thinks ship, the homeworking will continue after the crisis and are cheerful person this week. Former House of Commons speaker John Berko. We're going to be speaking about career. What? It was like to be speaker what he's planning to do next and. He he's. He's a man with a lot to say. We! Also if you. He's not a man of few words. You quite right. He'd be good if he ever needed to filibuster. Because John. Goodman he won't be good on that. We had such a good time chatting team. The conversation went on somewhat longer than we were expecting so this. This is a taster and we will put out the full interview as a special episode later in the week. Who Older? Was your reasons to be cheerful. My recipe for this week is our friend Gavin Osborn who performed live with us on stage he came on and the singer, song and ad. You joined in in the Middle Eight. He wrote you in. It was a great joy at that the two of you did He has released a song called born in the NHS, which is raising money for a charity called above, and beyond which is based out of Bristol, and it's extra money for patient care, and so on and hhs hospitals, and it's fantastic and I'd love it if everybody bought a copy of x is such. And Gavin is fantastic, and it's a brilliant song. You know we've all been going out and clapping for cameras and a system that really taps into that so pride in the NHS's ready good. To find it will. Link. In in description of this episode, but also if you just Google governors born nowy on the endpoint, NHS, you'll be able to find it quite easily, so that's my reason to be cheerful. This week is a great reason to be cheerful. I is just pound, but you can pay more if if you want to good. I know you have a reasonable that you. Actually know I've got to the first is. I think we are reasons to be cheerful this week. One of them should be Joe. Piss who saw program going and his business birthday today. Let's be honest. He would not have chosen to spend his birthday with US necessarily. we've done absolutely horrendously failing to remember that it was his birthday today. I think we should do a massive jet. He absolutely Berlet. Jawbone this program. He does all the research he he's he's. He's I I. Think we can agree that he was. A brilliant as he wouldn't be happening without him would know. Now is an absolute diamond. The weird thing is as we're talking to each other on zoom call I can also see Joel. It is very difficult for me to be this earnest and complimentary about somebody, and have some kind of contact at the same time, but you did a great job there. We appreciate regularly. We both feel humiliated that we didn't always his birthday. We're hoping that this goes some way to to rectify. Puts my birthday faux. Pas in relation to you can't help say in some kind of perspective. I mean at least a cake late. An okay, it was A. But I'd be at least what you're saying. He's got no chance of getting a lake cake from. You know this will suffice. He definitely not no I'm I'm I think he's definitely in the. He's definitely in the game now. The other injury with I talked some months ago about some. Trainers which enable you to? Run Faster and I purchased some. It's the first of the PODCAST. I'M GONNA I'M GONNA. Try Them on enough on the poultry off. This is great. I was telling you before we started building a very popular genre run. Youtube is on boxing videos. Well, get new things and. Take them out. A live and people get very excited, so you'll do that for a podcast. You could be tapping into a whole new audience for his era. Why why you faithful that will I said? They're very old material I. Mean they're like? I haven't seen them up close. They're like sort of. The very thin material on tall. Thick on the bottom now I'm fearful. They're gonNA. Be Too small because they they go small and I wasn't sure what size to order, and as I am pushing them all. They are indeed to small. Now, but you. Decide to big yeah, but that the half to is not big enough. It's quite disappointing. Their extremely awed got say they feel extremely. Sorry. You'RE I. I just. The problem is. Anyway well. I'm glad we had the Joel reasons to be cheerful because. Slight disappointment really well. I very much enjoyed senior space-age trainers, and you get to do a whole new in boxing a few weeks when the new power arrives. podcast about ideas with. An Jeff Lloyd. Start this week in Estonia with a net Numa, who is a digital transformation advisor at Estonia which advises policymakers around the world on this stony digital approach. Hello Numa before we get into Jenna. Tell us how lockdown. There's been fear and very happy to be here today. I mean it's been also challenging for everyone I would say and something new that we are experience for the first time ever. But I would also say that not much has changed. Just dip the one being able to now to be more often in a nature to go to Michael chose more often because I can have so meetings forever. I am network. Will you meetings not all on Zoom Anyway Estonia, but that's we're going to get onto you the most advanced digital society in the world and that I must say reading about Estonia made me incredibly excited about what you've managed to do, but we were lots of your meetings on zoom already. They were partly, but we still like to see west focusing Clinton's. And, even been in a cottage, somewhat remote rural cottage would have good. Broadband access and good spades. Yes, so this is very important before you start building. To Society which we started already as since nineteen, ninety four, I was a year when the first decision by parliament will sign that it's time to start building the state of the. Can, you imagine? I was born in Nineteen Ninety four so Since that time we said Kay. If. You want to have this kind of services online. You also need to be access to Internet and bite it. They are almost one hundred percent of Estonia has been covered. By very create Internet connection. We have so many islands here by the way, if you ever happened to visit there so many tiny ones, and there might be only like five ten beep, letting third as that's why good Internet connection was very much needed so that these people could. Actually lived there and not having to waste your money and time by going to the city to get something done, and what are the other factors that may custodial digital society where the drive behind it come from, and what was important in building that digital society. So if you think back to our background where we came from, we gained our independence at nine, hundred ninety one. We were under the Soviet Union. It wasn't the easiest time for us so easily, so when we came. Does independence at nine hundred one actually relies that we're lacking resources in many many sectors, so our government that time said that there has to be different ways to go. I mean. We didn't really see any examples from any other country that time, but we were like okay, but maybe actually. And the -nology is able to help us here and today I can to tell you that this really has been a huge success here and talk to me a little bit about how that developed over the years I know and. Thomas Hendrick. Who is president there for two thousand, six, two, thousand, sixteen for a whole decade, a lot happened. With him being the driving force behind it, what? What else is Stonier made digital? What were the priorities, do they? H-honestly you can do everything except only two things that are still happening on for happy guys about this two things that are stony that still happen on paper birth. registered. US Navy when someone is born here in Estonia, Tony, I'm very happy to say that everything happens online of course concrete. Really give birth online. At all these strike guidelines ration- things will happen Nestle online so at at the hospital. They register a baby by the person at Goto. Predication goes nine to parents can also register baby a name online without having to go anywhere ma marriage divorce and the transfer of property. You got it I'm afraid I read. I'm afraid I read it from a briefing. So say say you re tweet things. Happy to say now that after the crisis, we changed this buying property. The now we have an application called very life. They're a company that provides education where you can verify ourselves on the phone. And then you can even buy property without having to leave your Safaa or. Your your. To paint a picture just because I think he may be hard for our listeners to get their heads around it, and maybe for us to give us just a sense of the things in your daily life that are online that may be would not normally be. Expected to be. And let's let's take case and that side That's Michalik at in the morning at nine am is sending me a document and she's asking me add to that. She needs my signature for. It has to be on her email. In the next ten minutes maximum. I could to my son here. Is that I just open my laptop here on opened? Commend an idea, you a digital signature. It say now that we would have parliamentary elections also happening today here. I do not have to go, and all the way to any kind of polling stations I. What I do here? He's the digest. Open an application on my computer. I log into the system by eater, my light, D. or electronic light carts and I see. Like the name of the candidate I would like to the four and I just clicked there. I confirm and I use my pin number two an I in curbed my vote, and this will be sent to the bullying station without my name on it, and all of the sudden in the next few minutes I had voted without having to do anything and just in terms of the recent situation with the pandemic. How has it gone in terms of? We've talked about homeworking, but what about homeschooling? So I'm very happy to say this this. This has been one of our biggest in here for for many years that we have a wonderful east coast system. As soon as I finished high school nine approximately seven eight years ago, not long time ago, and when I was at in school in high school already, I was able to use already. Eastwood Systems Imagine so. It's also happening for like the past fifteen years already since we have had this systems so for for deeds, surprisingly they are doing good I mean, of course they miss their friends and everything, but all this classes and everything is happening online by one Mary plus thinks that I also wanted to mention here. Also there are still families. Who might have like? Let's say around three or four gates at him and right now the parents also have to stay at home. Obviously, they have to work remotely from Hayden, and I don't think there are many families who have mordon six computers attain, so we started this kind of movement. They, if they even created this kind of community where everyone who had computers at home that they didn't use good offered these computers to gets a WHO did not have a computer yet. I felt this was a very positive thing in our society here that we changed now as well. Now this sounds to will sound lots of people like a brilliant set of ideas and brilliant. Lee Advanced Way of going about things to some other people they will think when you talk about electric signature latronic voting, all of that they will immediately think or at least they will in Britain one about privacy. What about security? What about not just data breaches, but the state having all data on me? How do you respond to? These issues of privacy and security. That's fantastic question. I'm very happy that you asked us so we are actually using very secure system, so as said everything is is pretty much encrypted, and what we say here is that the city's in? He's actually donor off its own data. So we know exactly what enough institutions, what powerful nation about store and our system is very much, distributed and decentralized, so there is no institution here in Estonia. Who Know about my medical records I? Let's say my my my family relations. My salary intonation my taxes. There is no there is no institution who knows everything about you. They know only varies very small amount of information about you, so the doctors say you only the medical records, but no one else knows the medical records adventures. The doctors and crater stinks we. We use principle called trust by design. So that means here bad. We tried to get everything very transparent. We have this kind of fantastic things. Such as lock books system every single time that look into the system of my state platform I can see a list of different institutions. And what kind of information they have been looking for about me, it say. Visiting doctor recently. When I log into the system of my state, platform and goater on Sunday. As a set the logbook system, there I can see the name of the hospital I can see the name of the doctor, and I can see exactly what part of the information my doctor was opening of my medical carts imagined it. Would you ever get the chance? If your medical records are based on paper to new who has seen information and that's where the trust is coming care because we see that I am the boss here. I'm controlling mind who nation and this is so much fun to have this kind of feeling that I actually own might information than I can decide which government agencies are able to see my information. And I mean you. You've told us a lot about what he has done a much, which is very impressive. What do you think if you had to sum up the lessons from Estonians approach for all the countries? What would what would you say? Try to keep everything as transparent as possible. Because again respecting the privacy letting people know how these systems being built, and on one more thing may be here. Is that be willing to very very like? Beak because I mean we were such. A small country were just one point three million people here and we came from, so it's union like this wasn't the most premium background that we had ever had. So you can even start from scratch. You don't have to be a rich country to build this kind of system, which is have to have a good leaders leading the state, and that's what we had an again on really encouraging. Auto. People that are working in public sector, the bigger and just try to do things and not be always so afraid of failures. We're not afraid of failures, and that's why we're here today. We'll look on that Numa that great note to end on dream big. Don't be afraid of a of a failure. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. We'll talk about the situation. In the UK, having heard about Estonia now las to be joined by Helen Milner, who's chief executive of the good things foundation a charity work on digital and Social Exclusion Helen. Thanks so much for joining us. It's a pleasure. It's great to be with. So, just to start off Helen. Can you explain what the Good Things Foundation does? Yep Gif Things Foundation. We're at digital social inclusion charity, so we work in the UK, and also in Australia and so we're here to help people to be digitally included to get the basic digital skills that they need to embed that in their lives, and we do that by working with thousands of community organizations, so community centers public libraries small likable charities who can really reach into communities and support those local people. So Helen tell us what is the scale of the problem of digital exclusion in the UK and Played out during the current crisis. So. In the! We have. Over eleven million people who we think of as being digitally excluded so that people who. For whatever reason are not using the Internet to its full potential, I mean think about the digital divide the chasm rarely, that's leaving people behind, so you think of the people who are online and the people offline, and it's really important to understand. It's not that binary. It's not like. You got a small and magic media going to be fine. Over seven million people what we call limited uses so they they use the Internet very infrequently, or they just use a few APPS or websites at any one time. Main various access motivation and schools so on access. There's one point nine million households a lot. One point nine, almost two million households who don't have access to the Internet so that's fixed or mobile, and that's mainly due to affordability a there's over eleven million people who don't have what we call essential digital skills, but there's seven million people it's. Abu Can't turn on and APP. Just to make a real fear, and motivation traditionally has been a really big barrier. So that's almost like the stubborn lot of people who say the Internet Internet's not for me. It's not relevant I can't understand why they would want it. And actually during coronavirus there, a group of people who have now seen the Internet is really really important. I think you coined the phrase during this crisis is data poverty. To us about data poverty, and how much of a problem it's being during this crisis, we think about one point. Nine million people who don't have into higher ed probably have gone on. Digital poverty so they don't have devices. They probably will have very low skills, but for data poverty, these are the people who for me as well I've been working for a couple of decades digital inclusion, and they were pretty much invisible to me, so these are the people who probably have got secondhand smartphone or old smart fine. and. Who previously have been using fire in? Cafes or libraries, all McDonald's. And as soon as lockdown happened, and all those places shot, thank more completely without the Internet. We even have a met people during the COVID nineteen crisis who are choosing between data and food. One woman we met. Actually had reduced her and her children's meals to just two meals a day so that she could put danger on the one smartphone. The family was sharing, so the children could do home schooling. Jesus. What has been done so far to address these issues. Helena. What more do you like to see Donlevatar big question. Yeah. Because I've nineteen because we saw that people were just suddenly cut off so both the people with data poverty, but also those people who are locked in who was shielding particularly, those were shielding. Essentially end clinically vulnerable. That day no longer kid. Could connect with friends and family. but this also influenced people who've never used Internet so working with future dot now that's an industry led coalition. We've created a campaign. COULD DEVICES DOT now? So that's toget-. Low cost tablets with SIM card in it, and with support from thousands of community organizations across the country into the hands of people who are digitally excluded, so we've Saif always managed to deliver two thousand of those tablets, and that support to those people, but we could do a lot more. This has been entirely funded a through businesses and Bono by good things, foundation, and all of the community organizations involved on the ground I'm so. That's something that we did really quickly. So given how imported digital connectivity is in how reliant we are on is? Is there a case for treating it as a basic utility? And what would that look like Labor? At the last election? They had this pledge about free burrowed bond for all. Is that the way to do it? What what your ideas around that? So I absolutely think that we should have one hundred percent digital included nation. I. Don't think we should add that. Find ourselves in the situation that we're in now where we're isolating millions of people just because they can't afford the Internet. I, think that treating the Internet as utility is a brilliant idea, so we could have an odyssey. Government could pay for it. We could have some kind of of levee within our own broadband packages. Am I think the one thing I would say because also? This is about reasons to be cheerful. Is that I would really want. A utility, but without the problems that we've got with. Energy So, for example, we have a poverty premium. And so we know that the people in the lowest incomes have to pay the most, so they can asks have access to it, and they got to be credit checked, and it won't be turned off when they can't pay the bills any longer, but we know that privilege. They have to pay more than you and I have to do, and I'd really like to be one hundred percent digital included nation, but where everybody can afford it. How important is is the the actual broke and infrastructure in? An I guess also. Equal and infrastructure in different parts of the country in terms of where it goes, and how fast is. Obviously by structures important, because if you don't have that, the pipes in the ground, and if it's not good enough, and if the quality is not good enough, then people won't be able to access it. Through the devices dot now campaign, we've also heard about people in rural areas and not being able to get access to good for gene, for example, so the tablets with the SIM cards actually very useful to them. Vickers icon have access to decent mobile broadband either I think that most of the people so most of the eleven million people or the one point, nine million people who don't have access at home. Live in. Areas whether it's decent broadband. And also if we look at. The broadband infrastructure, and and we look at the investment in it, so this current government has promised fines billion pounds to deliver a good broadband infrastructure all over the country. If you guys majors point five percent of that budget. Than, tomorrow I could have one hundred thousand people to get devices and come activity and the skills that they need so that investment in infrastructure far far outweighs investment that we really need to make sure that people are included. That the way that we've seen reliance on technology during the last few months, think that will reframe it in people's minds will continue and that. Will you know ultimately? Main change for digital exclusion and improvement in the area. Yes I think that's absolutely right because. One thing that has changed since the corona vars crisis is the I think everybody understands how critical is. The imagine not having the Internet over the last weeks. It's just unimaginable. Both the work, but also. Social life our mental wellbeing, so you know essential services like getting through delivered so I think that those people who say well it's OK. People can manage without it. Those people won't exist anymore. They won't be saying is okay. You can manage without it. I think to whether or not important enough for that to be proper investment I'd show that I've quite got that message across yet. Let's finally. Ask You about the Jeff Oh Chrissy. Let's say Jeff made you. The Minnesota Digital Strategy Inclusion in general the wellbeing I mean I've just just first off I'd like to make sure. The WIFI is very good in my presidential compound. That will after that. It's over to you. You have caught plunge now. What would you? What would you be saying to him that you wanted to do? In the first one hundred UNRIG as an adult? Is going to be a pretty hands off leader. If you get good wife size, so you've got pretty blank blank of check really. And while for one hundred percent vigilantly, the six point plan I'm not is all about ambition setting a target, you know I want the supreme ruler to support that, and secondly it's about making sure that we do tackle motivation, thirdly, absolutely supporting that network of community organizations who are reaching those vulnerable people and getting them the skills. We mustn't forget four about access. We need to make sure that absolutely every single household has brought and utility. It's affordable and the two million people who can't afford it get for free. Businesses also have a role and finally I want to embedded in all social policy, please. Jeff can make it a seven point. Planet include my very high quality, Wifi. You're on I'll give you a blank check for it Helen. Milner! Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I'm delighted to say that we are joined now by Nick Bloom who is professor of economics at Stanford University, even advocate of homeworking. Long before the crisis current crisis. Tell us about that. You Know Windy Enough I actually did was go to randomized controlled trial on working from home in your home. which yeah like it's an experiment. It is so. If, you look at the way drugs or evaluate you get like a thousand patients, and he randomly give half of them the actual drug, and the other half that CBA new testament evaluate them before you unleashed onto the market, so we decided to try and do something closest could like that I'm working from home to a large Chinese company could see trip, which is like China's version of Expedia and they took a thousand people in two divisions and Austin, who wanted to work from home? Only five hundred of them did a lot of people. People don't WanNa work from home. But of those five hundred then randomized them. Literally, the chairman pulled a Boola Ping Pong Ball Vernet said even and everyone with an even birthday. So have you born tonight? The second fourth six eight tenths of the month work from her four five days a week for the next nine months ever an odd state in the office. Let me track to them mainly for like eighteen months and the jobs that they do data entry making phone calls, so he can measure literally what they're doing minute by minute. Turns out. Working from home was usually positive for productivity. So these guys, the guys a home you know we thought do off and like what she know. The Chinese version of Oprah Winfrey play computer games a horrible fool asleep. I mean the saying is the three enemies of working environment, the the bad television and the fridge I mean still. Full victim. To one of them in the end, they were thirteen percent more productive home, which is like huge. That's a huge amount. That's like extra extra day a week. And then like, how can that be? Will it turns out and you look at the data? Three and a half percent. More per minute. I mean it's quieter says some of it was more productive, more productive paraly-. It's then the rest of travel. Yes mostly say the three and a half percent or more productive then the remaining. Nine half percent as you work more minutes so just to because these guys are shift workers, so they're doing like nine to five Monday to Friday another reminding remaining nine and a half percent about two-thirds is they literally do their fault shift so they start at nine? They take less tea breaks country as you can see it in the day to their lunchtime. Lunchtime even like going to the toilet sounds ridiculous. You go to the toilet drinking coffee five six times a day. Takes you an extra three minutes on the office. Because his big, the adds up to fifty minutes a day so that you know that was another chunk, and then the remainder of it is sick days so taking less sick days and working from. I mean these quite dramatic and profound implications. Doesn't it yeah? I think. Coming back to Co. they're like three. Re regimes this free covid where about five percent of working days we spent our home. So that's Pretty Rad. Only about fifteen percent of people ever work from home this during covid where the numbers of a big survey with the Bank of England, and Nottingham University decision by Kapanen in fact, some of your listeners are probably in this in. In the survey, but it's about forty percent of time right now is working from home postcards against five percent normally. Yeah, exactly so during covid. We've seen an eightfold increase in working from home. We then all firms what you plan postcode drops back to twenty percent, but that's still a fourfold increase versus before I think postcode is like the Promised Land of working from home. Right now is horrendous difficult because of kids being around because of sharing bedrooms, poor internet connections so I think off to. This is all over. We're going to be this kind of Navarre of two three days a week home to three days a week in the office. The really interesting about this is there's there's that. And then an this is like speaking with you data on this. Under very conscious. They'll be meeting where I would never have imagined doing it via zoom or video link before the crisis, and I will definitely think well. There's no point in that person schlepping forty five minutes to come and see me Oh meech lapping forty five minutes to see them. We can just do a video cool. I mean presumably that could have massive implications around productivity and indeed carbon emissions, and goodness knows wall completely. There's a huge number of upsides having to be. So I think we WANNA. Look like working from home to three days a week. So you do need some interpersonal contact. To two days a week at home for sure, and then you can deal, you'll meetings and lunches and coffees and you know the. Monday Wednesday Friday and the office and everything else you. We can be more productive. You think of the people who weren't able to work from home. At the start of this crisis, there is a number of those roles that will be adaptable in the future. He just I mean again I've been collecting data is only about forty percent of people can work from home and. And you can imagine it's. It's very skewed towards probably to be honest, a lot for your listeners outside more educated people higher on us, so have. You got a university degree in much more lightly? It's a lot of jobs that you just can't do it. So if you look in the data a lot of food, you know working and shops, but even some very high skilled jobs. High paying jobs are being a dentist or so jen or an airline pilot. There's a bunch of stuff you can't do. There rose a bunch of jobs that are somewhere in between so I think. Most jobs would be great too bad to do them two days at home and three days in office officer view designing could easily the office three days, not the other two home so I don't think five days. Is You know very few people want that? Most people seem to one to three days. As said you avoid to commute, and you can also live a lot further away. You can be off of the of the office, which basically means you can live just anywhere, but you are warning US kind of music class divide, which is going to be thrown out by this. Yeah. I think there is A. On the negative side, there's potentially increasing inequality positive side though I could go to address their food ability crisis. Look if you only work in office three days a week. You probably don't need to live in a centrist big cities and I think the central big cities are going to kind of reduce in popularity and it's GonNa make it cheaper and easier for people that do need to be and work in face five days a week away. What we've been talking about today is about how with with the reliance on digital connectivity. There's this need to make sure. That people are connected equally in terms of infrastructure in terms of devices. Do you envisage it a situation whereby you could go for a job interview and it wouldn't just be about how qualified you the job, but also check in your postcode to chat you've got. Brand so it's a long winded way of asking how important infrastructure is in this is a great point I mean advocating like you know rolling up national broadband, the urban parts of the country. In fact I now live in the US whereas this is much more extreme mission. If you. Look the rural parts of America does Eka. Passed by broadband and they don't really badly. Economically of the loss forty years, central cities have done great out in the countryside is not done as well and I think we really need to spend money on making sure. The whole countries covered by broadband has stimulus, but of helping you WANNA help people to lockdown so that you know the most important thing is that it can actually work from home so. So yeah, exactly Ito I. Don't want to be turned down because my post goes the wrong postcode, so you completely need policy to roll up robot, the Spurs, the biggest, no brainer policy that comes out of this. I know that you you were the treasury at the same time as add wondering what the two of you would have thought. with Gordon Brown would have made of working from home. I. Don't think it's the sort of nick bloom vision of what's. Actually. Out doing a working when you don't commute I just big misunderstanding. The thing we want to encourage people to do is do nine to five in the office and then work from home. After it was with, Gordon was. Let you do your whole working day again, ah. Working Day. In the office, so I, think that's not. That's not the kind of That's not what we're. That's the were off the. Just to end, you know people have been through terrible times, both in the US, new K., and across the world, and still all goods returnable tons this crisis. You know there's this phrase. Build back better. Do, you think this kind of idea. Voice in from home can be part of that vision completely I'm so positive. I'm working from home as a long run. Technologies the promised land off to code before co that it had a bad reputation during Cova. Doing horrible with our kids around and full time and the broken equipment post coverage you can get it right a bucket school. We can from Hud and three days a week I think it'd be fantastic mood time more productive less meeting. That stress I think it's a win win. Okay, NICK BLOOM! Thank you for the positivity. I hope we can come and visit you. saw. Thanks thanks for joining us. Thanks, thanks, Jeff thanks. So, what did you think well? I WanNa live in stony. California. I'll take stone here. It sounds great. Yeah, never does know. There's something really positive. Helen said in that I. Think a year ago. There would be a lot of. Who are sniffy about digital. Connectivity they would see some kind of luxury, and it's awful that it's taken something like a pandemic to change our minds, but I. don't think many people would think like that now. I. Mean He is interesting it just. The the. The new thinking new the sort of pandemic has has folestone us. I mean. And and also the that it sort of it's taken this terrible tragedy to make us think again about certain things, so so you know the absolute centrality of digital connection and I thought what Helen was saying was just actually incredibly sad about you know the terrible sort of the terrible things people have been going through. That digital divide which you know. It sounded like a theoretical thing before it didn't it sound like it's of a divide in terms of not basic necessities, but sort of not on luxuries, but somewhere in between, and now it's been about basic necessities about where the kids can be educated whether you can work, you know whether your kids are going to be going bananas because they've got nothing to. Do you know in lockdown? It's about being some very very basic things. I thought that was really. Really, striking. And therefore the importance of digital access and then nick stuff about. You just sort of potential voicing from home, and I think that is the kind of the running theme of loss of the episodes. We're doing which is. Even in the face of what the terrible things have happened especially in the face of them. How do we build something better? Reasons cheerful PODCASTS. Dot Com follow us on twitter. Cheerful podcast search facebook page breezes to be cheerful podcast. And this week's cheerful person I am incredibly excited because as my first time speaking to has a new book detailing his life and career. It's unspeakable on on the phone now. We joined by John Berko Hallo. Jeff good afternoon to you and thank you having me on this podcast now. Lots of people on the phone they have the telephone voice, and then you have the voice you just use around the house. You have a third voice, which is Your House of Commons voice. Do. You get to use the anymore I. Get to use that. Royce, anymore! Children are never on the receiving end of it I'm nothing abusive cooling order. We teach used all of us to shout order at some point in the home, but that was not at each other. It was when we were addressing our beloved cat. We had a cat. Named by twitter poll order. That cast is not with us now cap has a new and safe home, and that's a great thing, but the reason they reason now for the word order to be uttered in the Burqa residents, and and what is what a strange life it must be for you. Having just spent a decade of your life living in the Palace of Westminster. Can you just tell us a little about the changes that you've experienced over the readjustment over the last? COUPLE OF MONTHS I. Will now living in our own. Don't get me wrong. It was an enormous privilege to serve a speaker and I loved it from to finish, and it was a privilege to live. In the Palace of Westminster in speaks house, grace and favor residence provided to the speaker, but of course it wasn't ours. We didn't own it. The pictures weren't hours. The decor wasn't hours. The furniture wasn't ours. Say the best great changes that we're now living in our home I'm you know that's a great joy? The second major change I suppose is that you have to become used to. The withdrawal. Of your previous structure. That is to say. The pattern of commitments to which you'd become accustomed over a long period, certain fixed points in the day when I would be doing certain things whether the internal office meetings or Jarring providence questions obviously by definition. All of that goes. John I think you'll be to talk about the volition of your career before we get onto your ten year as as speaker Talk to us about how you first Claude into politics. How how did you come in just a political Paul and I think it was I believe he was at university, and then then a bit about your trajectory into the House of Commons. It was really A. Combination of Factors was a negative and a positive the negative. Was the. I was. Experiencing the cycle winter of discontent, nineteen, Seventy, eight, seventy nine. When the streets went on sweats, some sick people went untreated and dead people when buried. And it was a pretty wretched winter for the country I. Thought at the time will in fact in retrospect I think Jim Callaghan was a very good and decent man. He was keeping as best he could in extremely difficult circumstances that time I thought wow! This person is completely. Lost in the office of Prime Minister in the country ungovernable. That was the negative. Provoke interest on my thoughts in politics, and the positive was the. Is a school. In finchley. I didn't actually live Margaret Factors constituency, but I was at school in her constituency. In towards the end of the nineteen seventy nine election campaign, she came to speak school. I. Arrange to Wangle my way to the front of the whole. Listening on a tunnel outside, but I wangled my way to the funded the WHO. At the end and got myself introduced. And said that I enjoyed her speech, and she said to me. Are you a member of the young in seventies and I said well Mrs Thatcher. I'm not, but I have come to this in and much inspired by what you said. Well you most assuredly should be. She said to me. A little while later I did and I joined the young conservatives and that I got more involved. At University. Tell us how you found your way into Paul because I think it's important for our listeners I. Enjoyed my three years the University of and then after that. I got involved in local government I became a local councillor in the London borough of Lambeth was quite soon encouraged to apply for the conservative parliamentary candidates list now I didn't seriously expect to get into all of might twenties, but you will. You'll be well aware, but a lot of people stops. At that point to have a go. And I stood for the Conservative Party, the nineteen seventy election at Motherwell. And I then stood again in Nineteen ninety-two in bracelet I resolve. The next time in the run up to one thousand, nine, hundred seven to apply early for very very very safe, conservative seat because I was. Then still very very much. A hard line radical thatcherite conservative. I nevertheless had A. Real apprehension of premonition of electoral of nominations. The Conservative Party I came to think that. The. Conservative Party was getting not just the news, nineteen, ninety seven election, but to be. Slow said. I was very fortunate in the end to be selected in separate nineteen, ninety-six as the. Prospective Conservative parliamentary candidate for Buckingham on the. I. Did feel but. Barring some completely unforeseeable event or God forbid a by action that I might lose. The chance were that I would get into parliament at the subsequent election. Say fruitfully for me. It proved. Let's talk about your time as a speaker. Plus about what you think of the most important changes you made in your decade also speaking of us won't change actions. The biggest change in the chamber was the renaissance in urgent questions. Outside the chamber. On the parliamentary state. The most significant developments were. Establishment of the nursery. Talked about a forty years, but never previously delivered. The creation of an Education Center, which is going to allow eventually under thousand. More young people to come to parliament to learn about the journey from the signing of the Magna Carta, the rights and responsibilities, which doesn't enjoy today. And I wanted to engender greater opportunities for women and Ethnic Minorities to occupy senior positions. Now's did that with appointments of. Speakers Chaplains the, speakers, council. And indeed the Sasha thumbs. For example the first. And second. It'd be Ame Sajjan. Saddam's in the history of the house. Say I make Pudgy for making some of these changes, some of which I was able to do on my own and others, which required support from across the House that I just make the point that in a sense. You can. Either be a reforming speak or you can. I'm controversial speaker. But you can't be base and I made my bed and I was happy to lie in it. John! We asked you excited. Speak to you and your hair is guest. I think it would be remiss of you. Remiss Avaz not to ask you about the bullying allegations. When you hear the things that have been said is, is there anything you recognize in your own behavior that you you would do differently? TO BE HONEST I. Simply don't set the. Charges or allegations of the be made in many cases several years off to. The alleged misconduct took place now. I'm passionate. I'm insistent I pressed for Change. I could sometimes be impatient if I thought obstacles were. Unreasonably an unnecessary being pushing the way. But I look forward to clearing my name I've never heard anyone anywhere in any way at any time and I think. Frankly I should be able to demonstrate not very very very clearly. What are your must looking forward to doing in your new life? How do you think you'll be spending your time? What's the most enthusiastic about? When I have been doing a loss of. Public speaking. This with Nelson Sally surprise you read. Still less would it surprise my late father who? said at the dinner table, I, think in nineteen, seventy five Johm generally speaking. Is. Speaking. Weapons surprised that. I've been doing a lot of public. Speaking to business school sanctions, lunches, dinners, conferences, one sort or another. I'm also. Doing some work as a part time professor of Politics Rollaway College London University I. Really proud to be Johnson this is. An Pedro and only role but. A role that I cherish as of my Alma Mater, the University of Essex, and so I'm eighteen to devote time to one of these things APPs. WHO'LL SAY to? Watching more sport when we're being well, macron has come. We'll look. Joel embiid account you. You've been a Berlin guest Good luck in everything you're doing. Your book is unspeakable. scrolling recommended available good bookshelves rise oppose pushed. Will Online in today's. Climate. Stay safe and thank thank you so much for joining us. Reasons to be cheerful with Ed. Miliband Jeff Lloyd. Well we're in the. People have thoughts on this week's episode. All ideas the future episodes please do send your and we read all the emails. Website chip PODCASTS DOT COM and you find out about a fantastic newsletter. Written by Zoe I, and and also had vol stuff about this week's show, and indeed previous shows, we will come back to some of our listener emails because I've had very nice emails about the chief theory. Jeff not from the tooth fairy well. Starting to worry about you emails from the tooth fairy. Chutney the dog that only you can say well Dylan's a real and Chutney. Right I'd like to thank Newmar Helen. Milner and Gloom and thanks to Joan Berko for telling his at length about his life, and as we said he went into much greater length than that is going to be a podcast in its own right Emiko. Cushion produces our podcast with research. The birthday boy himself Guy Happy Birthday to you. They to shoot. People. Did Joe. To. Style phone playing what it once was. Sorry to interrupt that was that was a lovely, a lovely birthday present for. Worried about Sunday mcnabb now that was a wonderful rendition. Joel is supported by were can in the aforementioned newsletter by Zoe Gelber and joke. Kenyan cal. Lofton's desire announced the James Deacon may be identified seed composed the music and the artwork was designed by. Henrico he's being Ed band. He's being Geoffrey Lloyd and these fame. The reasons to be shipped.
Another failed Brexit summit and bullying in the House of Commons
"Welcome to f t politics, a weekly discussion on what's happening in Westminster. From the financial times. I'm spiced in pain in this episode will be looking back at this week's summit in Brussels more. It means of the state of Brexit plus being into the Cox report on bullying, sexual harassment, and parliament whether speaker John berko needs to go. I'm delighted to be joined by our buses Bucci Alex Barker columnist, Robert shrimps the chief political correspondent. Jim, pick out and cost one Laura Hughes. Thank you for joining. And if you'd like this episode of politics, don't forget to subscribe the all the usual channels to save it every Saturday morning. So another summit and another disappointment for Theresa May. The prime minister went to hoping to unlock the stalled negotiations between the UK and the EU, but you failed to make a breakthrough instead, she was told that would be no special summit in November until more progresses made. And just as before it's the Irish backstop remains the thorniest issue and. The chief obstacle now to secure withdrawal agreement. All the prime minister offered was the prospect of a longer transition period which has management few eight. Both remain is an levers in the conservative party. Alex spark. Let's begin by looking at the expectations and what went wrong. If you could say that about this summit, it wasn't quite as disastrous as the Salzburg meeting last month where Theresa May k. more humiliated, but she's left this time with no real progress. And as we all Cutie aware time is running out, I'm not sure the people organizing this summit would have seen it as going wrong. I think one of the main objectives was to avoid what happened in Salzburg, and to basically convey the message that the negotiations weren't going fast enough while making sure that it wasn't done in a way that jeopardize them restarting and potentially trying to overcome the big obstacles that are left. And so you saw this mix of tone from the leaders. On the one hand, they would be saying we can't call it November summit with thinking about no deal tighening and so forth. And at the same time will bring nothing courage meant to give a sense of this. Negotiation can still come to a conclusion in the coming weeks and months the same time. One thing you've got to remember there were a lot of leaders in that room who with thinking, why are we hit discussing this? Because not much has moved on really from their perspective since Salzburg, they didn't have something on the table to look at. Told you need to come and bring new fresh proposals if you want to try to unlock these talk, but she doesn't really have anything new to offer accept this idea of somehow extending the transition period, former twenty or so months into maybe almost three years. What's your thoughts on that? I'm afraid this point. There's not much new in this Brexit negotiation, and they will often her to come with fresh ideas. But what we hearing at the moment in terms of the transition extension concepts about linking the backstop to kind of UK customs union in a future agreement, these old bits and pieces the negotiators were playing around with last week and they basically brought together something that looked like a package. I wasn't quite politically sellable for to resume and the moment we're seeing bits and pieces of that emerge, but not the whole outline and we don't know what to raise maybe saying in the bilateral. With other leaders, there may have been some more detail of there, but I think from the UK's perspective, they were pushing home this point about the backstop and how difficult anything that basically split the UK customs territory would be heard to sell them Westminster looking at to his position here, she went into summit hoping for some Ploeg SO maybe not quite desperate for it yet and didn't get it. Again. This is raised the voice of people in the conservative party saying she's failing. She needs to be replaced and the strategic not going anywhere, and you can see why they make that argument because Alec said nothing is changing at all, but at the same time as hard, see what can be done out, unlock this and get this deal over the line. Yeah, I don't think by the time she went to the summit. She was expecting very much. I think that the dog was caused the weekend on this under a number of one thing I think is pointed with making, which is that actually is a fundamental culture clash between the way the. European Union does business on the way the British and Irish governments appreciate on business over Northern Ireland, which is that actually, you try to avoid forcing the issue. I covered the Good Friday agreement as a reporter. I'm one of the key things about that was that anytime you hit a real struggle, you fudge the issue came up with the words. You try to work your way around it. I remember Tony Blair into Northern Ireland, try and sell the deal and come with three solemn vows that he put on a holding three solemn vows considerably less than legally binding treaties on progress has come. All practices come by fudging when you hit an obstacle and trying to work your way threatened by yourself time. And so I think Theresa May's looking for ways to blame herself time as a classic British response, and the extra gives you an extra of course, actually is not evident from what we've seen so far that time is any friend to the prime minister in these issues. It took two years to get an agreement within hiring cabinet and that fell apart within a weekend. So actually, to some extent, I think putting people's backs against the wool is possibly the only way that she has left, which actually to delay. Until they reached a point where you can jam the whole deal through. And I think our backbenches understand what she's doing now. Hence the rising volume of concern. I have to say from what I've seen over recent months, I'm not overly impressed by rising volumes of concern from hiring bench. This has been going on for quite a long time and in general, the mole, the noise, the less the action. So the loss of noise, maybe it will have an impact unless we see something that really changes it, like a real effort to force her out. I'm not convinced this noise amounts to much. I think that's very true about where the party is at the moment of his lot of unhappiness AUSSIE boys. Johnson makes this point in his columns pretty much every week now that we didn't new direction, but few Hanes him to say. So no. And few people actually saying, we need to change the prime minister. At this point. You have seen those voices beginning to increase, knitting always who's very Brexit biking MP. She said that and you, this talk going around of tweets made being removed to be replaced by David Davis as the man who come. In deliver breaks it as it was originally envisaged an life will go on his off, see a few obstacles at that plan. Yeah, I think the endorse has probably been fairly anti the province of quite long ties and richly very supportive. I've lost track. I think I remember seeing her embarrassed his press conference on the morning that you decided not to run. I think in one sense there, right? Which is that you're not gonna get a change of strategy with the same prime minister. So if they really do want to change the strategy, they do have to get rid of. The problem is implementation. They may well have the numbers to force a challenge to her, but under the Tory leadership election rules, it's a vote of confidence on no-confidence. There's no other candidate in there until she lose version of confident. The conventional wisdom is that she wouldn't lose that vote of no confidence. Therefore, the only way for that to happen is if the party sees that it can just impose a new leader without a contest. Hence the David Davis idea. He seventy years old. He comes in, does the Brexit deal that he was manifested unable to secure his two years Brexit secretary, and then steps aside for younger more promising candidate will. Maybe I don't believe that you can have a leadership contest in the conservative personalities uncontested. 'cause somebody will contest in the moment. It's contested. You're into three, three and a half months of contest. And that's pretty much all the time we have left to get anything done. So you still hit this fundamental point. It's very, very hard to remove her. And if you do then, what, Alex, let's go back to our favorite topic, which is the Irish backstop for change and where we add on this the moment because there was some report yesterday, the trees may head told representatives from the Irish government that she acknowledged that that couldn't be a time limit on this. And we've heard some comments from people like Jeremy hunt's, British Foreign Secretary to say that, yes, there may not be time limit, but there does need to be a mechanism that Britain can end key see any way through this. Actually. I mean, I think the time limit point the Irish would say she signed up to in December, and then in a further letter to Donald tusk in March, you've got to remember where. They're different punts of this deal seat. The backstop is a self contained thing in the withdrawal agreement and its Northern Ireland specific, and we'll the British negotiators are trying to do is replace that or voided with an arrangement. The would be UK wide on customs and parts of that sits in the treaty withdrawal agreement. But most of it is in a declaration of future relations because you side not just legal reasons, but for political reasons thing, you can't negotiate a fool customs union with a level playing field provision will the state-aid issues, the things that make it work as treaty lofting treaty. You can't do that in three weeks. They say for the whole UK is basically core because if she tries to get the full customs union into the treaty, so it's workable and the Northern Ireland specific kind of a replaced. It means on the rights of the party. It looks like Britain's going to be trapped in a customs union for a very long time if you want to keep the union together and this is the dilemma facing the plummets robots, the DP who support a government. She may not need them to get to deal through, but it's gonna be tricky if they do walk away, they're not particularly to accept it. Any of this language has been toughening over the past week towards any proposal as has the right the conservative party towards this idea, we would be in a customs union. I never leave. So even if she does manage to get some agreement in his Alec says, get some kind of legally binding sense that in a future relationship that would be UK wide customs union as the backstop. How does she begin to make that fly at Westminster? Well, I think the key issue is the UP. I think if the Democratic Unionist is a very hard line unionist can be persuaded that what she has negotiated as acceptable, then I think she can just jam it through. But my hunch is if the DP brought on side that reduces the number of potential conservative rebels, she pushes something approaching. A customs union policy through parliament as part of the deal and parliament will sign to that would be my best guess if she cannot square the UP than I think it's extremely difficult and I'm not sure that I see how she can get the numbers for deal. Obviously, I don't want to predict anything at this stage, the foolish as very ska-. But if you have a look, if she does go towards this direction of having a customs union, at least for a good period that would bring more votes from the labor party. One would think you see what you did this. You said you didn't want to predict anything in the new all to predict something. I think it's it's exactly right though that if the UPS squared off, then the number potential Tory rebels will full. But all the other point which we haven't mentioned yet is it reduces the Scottish issue because one of the things that I think three's my wouldn't of expected over the last week with the interventions of breath Davidson, the leader of the tourism, Scott, David, Mundell, the Scotland secretary saying we can't accept the kind of backstop was being talked about for Northern Ireland because it will. Place in told pressures on us in Scotland and precious on the union there. So I think the unionist issue in general is one reason I has to come up with a solution for if she can come up with that solution. I think her problems wall still substantial, and it would be a full to predict the she is gonna get this through. I think how problems have eased well to continue with this line of predictions, Alex water is still doing Alex. What's going to what's going to happen next in the coming weeks following this summit. I'm not gonna go down that, right. What I'm gonna say in studies, the biggest problem facing these negotiators in political terms, ease the fact that whatever way you look, the backstop issue, whatever the UK decides to do in the future, be it a customs union and FTA beat new way. Plus, I mean, if we said the full single market and customs union, the EU would still require a Northern Ireland. Specific backstop in that withdrew treaty has provision, maybe not explicit, maybe disguised in all sorts of clever ways. But that would basically split the UK's customs territory and I don't know whether that is ever acceptable to the UP, whatever other arrangements kind of packaged around it. And the thinking now is, is there any way to change course on that? But I think a lot of big gambles it'd be made different points in this. Negotiation, and we're seeing it or crystallized now around that. I think one other point to mention his, if you think as many observers of the Westminster seen do that Theresa May will be challenged after twenty-ninth much off the Braxton's completed. Then you have to the equation of the backstop that somebody else is going to be prime minister under the British policy may have changed. So there is how ever maddening it is to the British government. There is a real logic in making sure that you pin Britain down by treaty if you can, because you know in five months time, you could suddenly find yourself negotiating with the prime minister who's from the very hard Brexit wing of the conservative party on when you look at the politics, the conservative party one shoes is going to go into more Brexit direction in terms of who's going for place. I don't think anyone sees Dominic grieve becoming promise. It's much more likely to be at Dominic Robb or Boris Johnson who would want to go in the Canada direction, which from the us point, Alex means that apps it does need to be a back stop there. Absolutely. I mean, the idea of it being goal weather is that it survives. The kind of of British politics over the next few years, and it's gonna be a really difficult negotiation on the future. And we tend to look at this backstop in kind of into Dr way. What will this do to Northern Ireland civil? You look at it as a negotiator off, the Brexit, Northern Ireland is leverage for one of the other side. If there isn't a backstop provision the UK at different points of a future, trade negotiation would be able to say, oh, well, you know, this isn't quite good enough. We'd have problems in Northern Ireland. Can we do better on there? So better on that. And it would always be an issue for the EU because of Arlen since two on it. Once you have a backstop provision in a withdrew treaty, you kind of neutralizes that as leverage for the UK. And in fact, for the EU whenever you're getting to a stage where the free trade agreement is close to being agreed that uses all well, sorry, this isn't good enough. We have to use the backstop and would give polls to the UK. So it's really vital in so many ways to this negotiation. And shaping the future UK you relationship. It's amazing to me. Actually the the beginning of this process, we didn't realize how it would come down to this, but they have. I think the conservative party when they do have a leadership election, assuming we all where we think we're going to beat the contest will be entirely about Brexit. It will be entirely about what each candidate strategy is tool Brexit, which is disastrous place for the conservative party at she'd be. They want to be in a place where she, we've done breaks a now, we're going to elect to lead to take us into the new challenges of our country and have somebody who can create an attractive alternative to Jeremy Corbyn instead of which I think it's almost a given that if the contest comes next year, it will be termed entirely on who is the most faithful Brexit and finally question for you both wedged, you feel we are on the prospect of eight note deal exit because of course the long of these talks go on without any sign of breakthrough on any softening of the politics a does continually raise. The question is Britain going to stumble out the block next month without a formula agreement, Robert, whether your thoughts, I think balance that I don't think the prospect of a no deal Brexit has gone up for one reason which is that. The other issue that is gaining momentum over the last four or five months is the question of a second referendum. And I think the alternative to know deal once a deal is off the table is a second referendum, and I think Paul will force one if there is not a deal they vote for and I think in the circumstances of second referendum, I think Brussels probably would have an incentive to stop the clock. An Alex. I think the risk of an ideal has gone up Polly just as a function of time passing. We're reaching the point where the threat of a no deal has moved from a kind of negotiating point to something that is impractical to something these governments are gonna have to work wars trigger plans, don't spending money and thinking through what an ideal scenario would actually be from week to week and that changes people's outlook on it, that county relations about it, what the cost would be become more real and in a way, what can be averted in terms of contingency measures is also clearer and in a way. May politicians might get to a point of thinking, well, maybe this is the best we could do. This week, fake critical report was released into bullying and sexual harassment in the house of Commons. A former high court judge said there was a coach of deference subservience acquiescence and silence towards complaints, mate at the heart of Britain's political life too. Often, these things brushed under the carpet and a wholesale. Cultural change was needed starting at the toll for many amperes and beyond. This means speaker, John Perko. He appears pretty unwilling to step aside low Hughes, let's begin with this report. This all began with accusations that I think really started with the metoo movement. Advised in Westminster and questions about the behavior of MP's even ministers, and then it went on with the treatment tools. The clocks, the Ablett, go stuff that run the house of Commons tells about the report and its conclusions. Well, I think it confirmed for a lot of us. What we already knew is happening in parliament and that that as a culture. Of covering up accusations of bullying and harassment dot was the most striking thing. I think from the report we knew it was already going on, but now we've had confirmation that people have actively sought to cover these things up and sweep them under the carpet. It all came as a result of occupation of bullying against John berko that speaker in the house of Commons. That's what prompted Andrea lets them the leader of the house to invite Dame, newer coats to come and do this independent inquiry because one of the main issues that we keep saying is that any sort of investigation to any kind of allegation is not independent. So when these accusations came up against John Burke, the standards committee which is made up of MP's voted three, two to not let the standards Commissioner, Catherine stone investigates allegations into Joan Burke, and this report has confirmed what a lot of us knew the question now is, what does it actually mean? What's going to change the really interesting part of her report. He didn't look into specific allegations and the Valotti of those allegations. But what she did say is that she can't envisage the seismic shift in culture without senior management, changing the top of the house of Commons and making those comments. She is talking about John Burke. That's really interesting. Crucial. That isn't accurate communication. She is. She has made. We'll come onto Mr. burqas role on this in a moment. But for those lists, not aware. Parliament is such a strange place in how it's operated because people see as one entity where it really isn't because you have the common staff who employed clocks and the eight political officials. But then you have all your MP's and peers directly employ people. So in a way, it's lots of small businesses, there's no coherent structures for HR. They've stopped to introduce a complaint hotline on ways of porting this, but you're only real avenue for course, is through the party whips and too often, I think one thing I took away from the report is the partu obviously invested in sometimes brushing these things aside and one of the things that thou MP's who are very well known. I'm sure we know who these MP's are, who have these allegations made about them. So it's not just a couple of bags, and it's the coach of everybody knows about this, but nobody is willing to do anything about it. Yeah. Even when there was a debate on the report, I ever heard a woman's voice. I seem it was an MP saying, we all know who they are. So for years, everybody in that house knows who the bad eggs are, and nothing has happened, and we had all the stories. And really I still don't think anyone's being punished. No one's lost this seat. They may have been suspended temporarily, but no one's actually lost the privilege of sitting in parliament and now this report and no action Rudy coming off the back of it will once again just reinforces I did that new change is coming. It's not within the interest of anyone to change it. That was a moment in PM cues, wet LeBron Piazzi stood up and said that she had a constituent who had been harassed at work and the prices had been awful. What advice did the prime minister have to give her to encourage to come back to work given the employ at? Was this house? That's pretty extraordinary. The report is what we knew. But again, I mean the main point from nothing has changed since it came out and so much of this. Because a coach within you've worked in the house of Commons press gallery for many years and parliament is not like other workplace because it makes his the professional and the socializing together. I think thirteen Basel drinking establishments within the house of Commons. So the clear boundaries you might have an other workplaces on not necessarily so obvious in this 'em piece of said about policing this and trying to change the coach. Or here it goes the very heart of what makes parliament will some might say unique in quite special compared to other workplaces in other legislatives around the world. Yeah, I think the drinking coach could be saturated in terms if you change, if you go back twenty or thirty years people drinking at lunchtime, you had the late night, say things that really happen anymore. And that we had always MP's hanging around drinking inbetween votes to very late night. Now a has become more confirm friendly, full. The MP's I suppose I'm not. Keesing anything to. I think the issues, patronage as lower was pointing to Eliot as you as saying because loads of the people working pond all were confirmed piece of self employed basis, that atoms of patronage whereby you wanna become a politician in ten years time of fifteen years time in UC being the dog's body for an MP is the way forward. That means the people in the past been winning to put up with some quite unpleasant behavior in appropriate behavior bullying because the prize on the horizon is one thought maybe it's worth it in the way the junior reporters throughout the decades have enjoyed bullying because they don't intend to remain training reporters forever. They want to progress, but the something about the fact that self employed businesses, these MP's, that means the HR processes are not in place, and that's something that really needs to change and peace have a sense that they can get away with whatever the hell they won't because they have because of the way that parliament a setup that closed private offices, these on open spaces. It's very. Easy to imagine how you could get trapped into corner how you can shout member of your stall without anyone ever really overhearing said as an issue of witnesses and the whole place gives MP's sense of entitlement. It's an extraordinary building to work in and they have this sense of grandeur and all looked at as gods by many of the stuff that welcome parliament. Let's talk about the issue of speaker berko, Jim. So John berko has quite a few enemies amongst MP's most on the conservative side who seems this form of a right winger whose progressively gone left. I think it's fair to say, and they really want to our themself example. James dodger at conservative brags MP's someone who's campaign for many years. Those usual folks jumped on this report to say this example of why speaker berko needs to go now. But as Lois said earlier on that looks like it's not necessarily going to happen a talker, Stu what's happened with his position, whether you think there's any chance of actually getting pushed out. So all positions have been on some kind of journey. Quite often. It's from left to rise a burqas traveled on the opposite direction. He started out as young conservative is very right wing young individual mino- mice touristy so, and yet somehow long the way his drifted into a much more kind of lefty type position. His wife, Sally Burke, how is very much of the left and he he's often very interested in LGBT issues, quality issues, but his critics sort of suspect that sometimes he's using this is a kind of PR from self and disguise. Whereas actually this unpleasant behaviour emanating from him in terms of how he deals with his immediate colleagues. Employees as there was a sort of moment earlier in the week where it looked like his position was not very tenable and then Laura has more clarity of this maker. She writes, it looks like he smells to hold off for another year or so, and what's fascinating labor and peas who came to his aid. And we had that extraordinary debate earlier in the week where lots of female labour MP's from the party. This. Let's be the party of workers rights on the party of equality. Propping him up in his position and seems to be all about. They think he's more useful to them over Brexit. So this was Arctic lated by Margaret back at the former foreign secretary and long-standing labor MP lower. When she should have been said, basically, to some is bullying is very bad should be dealt with, but Brexit is really important and we need jumper to stay there. And the reason for this is MP's of very nurse about having a meaningful vote, and they were spooked particularly this week by papers coming from the government saying they're going to try and avoid making, not as meaningful as possible. They see John berko as their guy to make sure they will get that many for vote in have say. So in that case that willing to overlook these accusations. And we should also note that John berko reject so these accusations against him. Yeah, been. I'd I a swear on your podcast, but it's a load of rubbish to suggest that that is another speaker that could step in June beco- and ensure that parliament had a vote and had. Essay on issues like Brexit. It's thirty disingenuous to suggest not. And I think actually summarizes the whole issue in parliament and politics. And if you're young victim of salt, there's this idea that if you'll part of the project be the labor party, the big project is getting into government. You do not do anything that goes against an hurts the project. So if you really want to make today shin publicly against them, you really need to think about it because this could stop us getting into government and your hurting. The family knew harming the project and politics. I, it's not about the victims and it's the hypocrisy of this, the labor party, and they are not prepared to stick up for that own workers rights or treat their own workers in parliament with respect. I think it's staggering have used excuse. It makes no sense to me. The best comments on that was done Hodges the columnist who said the if Britain's I change prime minister in the middle of World War Two, then surely we can have a different speaker of the house of Commons just because Brexit's very complicated. Margaret Beckett comments. She said abuses, terrible, it shouldn't happen. It should be stopped. This behavior should change anyway, whether the speaker goes will not. But you also had Emily Thornberry the current shot, a fern secretary saying, this is absolutely not the times be changing speaker, and then other such as Angela regal former from Benca saying, if we change speaking out that way, lies Arctic Eos and submitted to earlier this past all about this debate shaping up when threes. My comes back from Brussels before Christmas sometime with Dale, we're going to have this meaningful vote, and this is gonna sound a little bit tacky for those who aren't deep in the weeds of Westminster, but it's all down to whether they have a, yes, no vote on the stale followed by light of amendments, by which time the amendments coming too late in the kind of meaningless or whether you can somehow force the amendments, I are head of the night, which is what normally happen. And this leads from Dominic Robb to the procedure committee made clear that he. He wants the yes, no vote to come first. And he's basically saying anything else could undermine will the people the rest of it, and the British public wants a clear decision and business wants Klay this, there's no arrested. So they're trying their hardest to prevent this and unsurprisingly the really hard core preview and peace, especially on the opposition benches very unhappy and finally lowered just at the slight bizarreness of this hotel speaker berko said, he's going to go anyway. So when he ran for the speakership following the MP's expense, his whole pitch was to clear the board restore forty and reputation of the Commons and many respect. He has done that palm much more the center of politics and it was if you consider doing the financial crash, Gordon Brown only two statements to the house of Commons. Now, every major statement pretty much comes in in the house of Commons, but he said he would be there for nine years. That was last summer that's now passed, and he's made it known to his friends that he's going to step down next seminar overseas. Left wants a could slipped again, but that does seem to be a pretty firm case he should go before then. But in flav rampage aren't willing to do anything about it as Jim was just saying because of Brexit looks like he's really going to be safe. And I think VO speaker berko has done many good things. Restoring parliament, you're not going to get that coach or change until you have new management starting at the top until you have politically willing to say that because both Jeremy Corbyn spokesman, Andrew may said it's a matter for the house, but I'm John back has serious power. There is a reason why MP's don't necessarily want to challenge him. He is the one that she uses when they get to speak in in the comments, chamber and many referred to go against him. He's not gonna make. He said, he's gonna move next year, but that is not at admission of doing anything wrong, that as civility, not him setting out his own timetable, no one, three wedding to challenge it sends another message to people working parliament that your experiences on more important than the big political products of various parties and of government. And if you were going to create the position of speaker and you would never give one man or woman so much pallet. This is what happens when you give 'em peas this much power. And this is what happens when you give 'em pays the opportunity to Mark their in homework and decide whether or not colleagues should be investigated unnecessary for this week's episode. Thank you very much, Alex, Robert chip and low of joining us, or we back next week for another installment. And in the meantime, if enjoyed listening to this podcast and we'd like to see some more f. t. journalism than do take a look at all subscription office which is ever you can find f. t. dot com slash of fifty f. t. poltics was presented by may Sebastian pain produced by Robertson until next time. Thanks for listening.
99. WRITTEN IN THE STARS: the argument for a codified constitution
"Taste vase as reasons to be cheerful the fall from the festival southbound. Please welcome to the stage band and jeff law. Hello oh. I see you going full both sleeves down but you cuff some buttons. Yeah i think i might go for the ones sleeve up fashionable. Look do the ad anyone know. The fashionable look once. Leave anyone else during the ad today you that's interesting shirt. You know when you say interesting. Nobody ever takes that as a clam shack moore. I'm afraid thank you come in anybody. Being one of these before okay anybody not being one of these before either way. It's good if they haven't then. It's fresh blood if they have them work ever the closer to start in a cult which i know you have to rush. We do our reasons to be yeah. I'm just gonna have the shirts as my reason to be cheerful. In defiance of your unkind remarks some shirts your voice went very high actually was cheerful. Well my reasons which actually relates to the podcast which is is that p._f. Park rum who does park run so i'm really proud of myself because so the podcast got me winterpark wrong i i went on we went in the beginning of december and then i went on christmas drag my family there on christmas day which sort of not great for them but <hes> <hes> and we went apart from this saturday i went with my kids and park roma's off because there was a festival going on the park but i did it anyway. It's like i did my own park. Run catches say that on christmas day ad also came through my front door and we all just sat there pretending not to be an we did. We didn't know you without words but we trying to persuade toge- room with you. I would try to come to park otherwise otherwise engaged. Should we talk about what we're going to talk about yeah so we toolset constitution you want. What is this a beatles there. There are banned from the i popular culture so so we're talking about our constitution or asset of non constitution and really water water we do about the fact that we don't have a constitution or don't have a code defied constitution and i think in a way brexit has kind of raised the agenda because people will see the dominic robb with threaten to perot parliament in the middle of the tory leadership election. People weren't quite sure whether that could be done or not. Parliament has spent two years not being quite sure what it can do and so i'm delighted to say that we've got professor jeff king with us who is professor of law at at u._c._l._a. and dr hannah white from his government talking. About why don't we have a constitution. Should we have a constitutional. What will what would it mean for else. You might be sitting here thinking that sound exciting. Does we've got away exciting. He'd be very good lesson by jeff king and in hawaii onto the stage. Thank you both the come in just just to start. Can we go through the basics of what is constitution. How common is it for countries is to have one. Are we that unusual. Do we have a constitution despite the fact that is not written down. Can we go through those things. First of all what is constitution share so a constitution is that set of rules customs principles judicial decisions that tell you what the main organs of government are the legislature the executive various branches of government the courts and so on and which also provide rules for how you resolve disputes between different branches of government let's say local and central government or and most commonly between citizens and the government and what what point in the country's history the does the constitution typically typically get up every every country has has to have a constitution because it has to have those kinds of rules especially those rules that define how you make law if you don't have those rules. You don't really have a legal system. At the moment. There are only three countries is that i know of that. Don't have a code fide written constantly recurs in the whole world that's right new zealand israel and the united kingdom so it's uncommon to not have the the constitution codified in this that doesn't make it bad but it's it's uncommon and what is what is the overview of how it is here because we hear about not having a written constitution. What do we have so what you have is good. Seven hundred and fifty years of development of customs conventions often called like the queen must give royal assent to a bill. That's been passed by parliament or that. An act of parliament is the highest form of these things have evolved slowly over seven hundred and fifty years and many of them predated the arrival of democracy by many hundreds of years so the view generally is that the amongst many scholars is that the constitution has adapted eventually chilly in every case we needed to reform the lords reform the lord's. We needed a legislatures in the in the devolved areas that happened eventually but we haven't. I'm really reformed move reform the lord's bids but right move keith out the hereditary peers sold. Is that right yeah. I'd say that that's true. That lords reform didn't quite finish all the way when when some political parties stopped it from happening. I think it was twenty one. That was me. Apparently i don't think so but what what why why don't we have a written constitution or code divide constitution so i think there are historical reasons and there are reasons of principle and there are also oh reasons because of vested interests so historically in most countries you have some great upheaval and then there's a decision to either create the institutions nations of government or fundamentally reorient them and that's a sort of big bang moment in countries politics. Britain's never really had that so. It's not quite hot that it's it's been a process process of evolution rather than having that big bang moment so that's one reason another is that the principal political argument that arguments achievements of principle and grand design really not that welcome in political and constitutional affairs in the country so edmond burke in particular had that view the thought was was we don't like the sort of american german style grand theorizing that the people rise up and have a constitution but that we just we have a good one. That's working and we make adjustments adjustments as they're needed along the way so it's a preference for incremental reform rather than big reform. I think it's more democratic in it. It's just it's it's harder to do it all at once so that's the principled argument but then i think that a really important reason is that there are vested interests in both of the leading political parties the current constitution allows either of them which have alternated in power in the last hundred years to do essentially what they want once they're in power the elective dictatorship the elective dictatorship point point is simply that <hes> whichever party takes a majority of the house of commons can basically do it at once and it often takes that majority with less than fifty percent voters behind it kind of you worked before he is for government work to the clock in house of commons for ten years. What was it like implementing. Our sort of non co defied constitution. Well i think one of the aspects of the region but non-qualified on qualified constitution that we have is that parliamentary rules are part of that poem that you will also one of the things which are written down and not have to be interpreted to decide decide how the country show from my job was to interpret those rules and help a members of parliament and the speaker and so and understand what they meant and what they meant for what should happen and so for example one of the things i had to do was when a new law came along called the freedom of information act and i was wondering a committee and it's not the case that committees in the house of commons are covered by something called parliamentary privilege and parliamentary privilege is a convention that m._p.'s can't be prosecuted for something that they do in parliament something they say in parliament it's important to protect and cars liable someone in parliament exactly you can't be prosecuted prosecuted for libel if you say something so when freedom of information came along i had to think from the point of view of the committee is running what would take precedence freedom freedom of information or parliamentary procedure a parliamentary privilege in relation to what the commission was doing and this turned out to be quite important in relation to the expenses the scandal because what some m._p.'s try to argue with that they couldn't be prosecuted for having mislead misuse their expenses because because what they were doing was covered by parliamentary privilege wrote and the courts actually found that claiming expenses was an administrative places assist the privilege didn't reply but that's just an example of where on a daily basis i had to decide how to do my job by interpreting interaction between law aw and convention and this has been very clear with brexit because you know it has felt very much make up as you go along from from the beginning camera called the referendum fifty plus one percent very narrow obviously then you know he's been subject to the courts and parliament of all doing and trying to workout what its power is. I mean sorry would that have happened in a in a different system. I mean really they. They have a way of governing referenda in these systems constitutions they often they often do but i think the direct answer to your question is i don't. I don't think that there would have been the degree of uncertainty we had an important supreme court case which had to clarify that that prime minister could not notify the european union that we're leaving and start start the clock on the negotiation period until an actor parliament was passed that was contested by government. It took a supreme court case to answer that question. I think in most countries of the written constitution that wouldn't have happened right what about the amount of discretion that say john berko had that would that be different if it was if it was a mortified constitution listen i think not necessarily i mean what it depends on the constitution and we've had a lot of people say over the course of brexit that the lack of clarity over what's happened in parliament means. We're in a constitutional crisis but actually in lots of ways. John berko has just been playing his wall to interpret the aspect of the constitution that is there any constitution is going to have to be interpreted it. There's a question about who gets to do the interpretation and i think it's like to say that in a more okay defied situation it's more frequently nor as judges who get to interpret slutty crazy situation though isn't it that i i mean i was talking to a conservative m._p. Usual remain nameless and he was he was incredibly depressed about boris johnson winning because he just felt he was going to power through the ordeal. Take take us out without a deal. Even though there was a majority in parliament for the walsum sort of there wasn't listen to kind of kind of lockdown way of stopping him doing it. I mean that just seems it. Just don't quite know if parliament album votes against no deal can stop him not stop him. Would he go to col- so one of the practical difficulties with with the constitution is that there are a number of anachronisms lying around in the constitution like loaded guns essentially the idea with prorogation est that the prime minister to advise the monarch to parague or terminate this calendar year of parliament and stop all business in this calendar year and it will restart and say november the idea was that by stopping parliament for meeting in the default position of no deal on the thirty first of october would which just happened anyway we look to another country where there was this not just uncertainty about the issue but uncertainty uncertainty about who could do what a no latte to an to an extent it. It looks an acronym. It's true that in canada and australia they've also had incidents with prorogation parliament so it's not and they both have written constitutions. It's not like you get rid of them right away but it would be rare. I in in many say most countries. This kind of situation just wouldn't arise is it's just that the interaction between the prime minister and the monarch under our system means that some of these old powers of the monarch are just left there on the belief that they'll always be d._a. Exercised according to democratic principle but when you get into crises like this it exposes that it's very problematic what would you do. You're thinking that brexit the the brexit sort of mess might not have been prevented by written constitution well. Oh i think that is as jeff said what brexit has demonstrated is that people don't understand constitution. They understand lots of aspects. I like spend a lot of m._p.'s. I spent a lot of my time on t._v. Trying to explain happening in the house of commons and that's just not desirable for any country. Everyone needs to understand in my view the rules of the game now. It's not the case as can just pointed out that just watching things down necessarily makes everything cpa mcclair and one of the important things to remember is that the act of writing it down will involve decisions because they're things that aren't clear there will be decisions to be made and and so it's a process it's not just you know one day. We might decide that. She had this all in one place so we just do it actually would be an active process to say. We want to create a file a constitution jeff. Can we ask you about your idea. Your proposal assure reconstitution sure so this is jeff. Oh chrissy jefferson yeah j. jeff. Oh okay well my my jefferson. He is quite democratic. I mean that's the point of the so so the the argument that is often presented for having a written constitution is that it would clarify the constitution institution. It's just what we've been talking about or that. It would protect people's rights against majority decision-making in parliament or amongst the people in my argument is slightly different and i think there's some merit to both of those arguments but the fact is is actually the way that countries performed protecting civil liberties does not always go along with its courts capacity strike down legislation. <hes> organizations like freedom house. Keep track of which countries are best to protecting civil liberties and the majority the top countries. Don't have this practice. Actually that's a bit embiid. Don't have the practice of courts regularly striking down legislation that violates they will have they will yes. I do exactly do so. You don't need to these powers. Don't necessarily go together. The clarity argument is is a bit better because we've seen there's a lot of uncertainty in the constitution solution but if you know you might be purchasing that clarity at a very high price if they're if the constitution that you adopt has a lot of features that are not good so if it's really hard to amend it means you could lock in policy if the courts become central political players that might be bad for the reasons we see in the united states so it says about constitution. I i feel it does yes. You probably want to know why it's remarkably hard to amend you need majorities in both houses of congress as well as i think it's <hes> three fifths of the states to agree a representation in the senate is not proportional to population when you have two senators regardless of how large a status and so and hillary clinton could win the electoral win the popular vote by what was it three or four million and still lose and then there's no chance for either mending the way that works. I mean for future elections yes. This is another issue with it. Although electoral systems systems are not always regulated by russians but yes that's that's another problem so my my case for the constitution is simply that the people should be involved and have the right to decide what the laws are in the country. We always accept that for acts of parliament. We accept that the government sometimes makes delegated legislation or regulations with authority given to it by parliament. I'm saying that all of the rules and principles of the constitution should also be decided by the people or the representatives of the people on how would you go about doing it specific proposal about how it should happen indeed so my view is that you can either point you can have the executive try to do it could be tried to be run by an ambitious prime. Minister gordon brown had tried this or you can create a commission of experts what i don't like about those. Is that ultimately you'll have to send whatever you you come up with to parliament now. Why should parliament not be the one with its its hand on the reins. It's because constitution making should be across party affair fair and it's the nature of parliament that a majority of a single party can with much less than fifty percent of the popular popular vote behind it. Stop up things from happening. There and it's also not in the interests of either the conservative party of the labor party to pass this through so i don't think parliament should have its hand on the reins. Neither should it be the executive what i think it should be as specially convened assembly technically a constituent assembly sometimes called the constitutional convention which would be composed of people that would right the constitution and put it directly to the people for referee approved by referendum now the ghani irish dude didn't do that but they have used a constituent deliberative processes and the lost indeed so let me just distinguish between a citizens assembly and a constituent assembly citizen's assemblies. He's get together and deliberate about important issues and then they have a report and then that will go to the legislature which will decide how to act on it. What i'm talking about is different aren't they would actually write it and it would go straight to the people that consult parliament but parliament wouldn't have veto power on this and that's important for the reasons i gave already so the the constituent assembly would be two-thirds directly elected and one third appointed direct appointment of citizens chosen by titian and i understand that you're great certificates. You always have been apparent since two thirds of people come from where two thirds would be directly elected. The people <hes> in my proposal is at it's done by a proportional representation system and and for those policy labels exactly and that's crucial in my proposal because you i have to remember writing. A constitution is really complicated business. It's not like one issue abortion or gay marriage this the whole constitution. How'd you avoid it. Just a snapshot of where country is at that particular point in history it could be and it's part of my argument that i don't argue for any particular constitution but only for the process because if if you say what it it should be that it's not really a democratic argument but what i expected happen is that a lot of issues like lords reform the voting system the rule of parliament in adopting treaties the nature of the bill of rights. These will come up necessarily for discussion. It's that's just how these exercises work and i think once they're faced in this kind of context when the results do not dominated by one party then you're going to get different answers we now have and when you were working for gordon brown decided we've told the story on the podcast at ed founded on blackberry decided last year history of a different address to the digital detox year got rid of his iphone blackberry and you found an email from christmas day two thousand two thousand four i think from two thousand six with hip hit proposal for a written constitution that i was annoyed that he emailed me on christmas day back clearly. I should have paid more attention to social fault but it's basically my my fault. I still got the email somewhere but the time yeah did it not feel like an exciting ideas exciting i did i tell do you think the problem was. I remember having a conversation with tony blair and he said to me. Look this constitutional thing that brazil's not gonna this is i think after he don maybe after gordon to take over just before it's just not gonna butter any pass tips really going to do in your tony blair impersonation. What about any parsnips. I mean i think we kind of re re christened this the uncle melvin question yes so how would we get a call an uncle melvin. How what does it why don't melvin care about this right so for the same reasons that that you believe that you should be able to vote for parliamentary elections the same reasons that you think that that acts of parliament are past that you should participate in that process you should also be even more concerned about the most fundamental rules in the society not just the dangerous dogs act but what the constitution itself is. That's the main argument of principle and how with governed i suppose he precisely where does power lies more local government the house of lords all of that exact. I'm bridging me the monkeys up for grabs in this too seriously i i'm i think it will still be there after the exercise but the extent of its powers you know whether roy how does royal assent function house prorogation function <hes> the the prerogative of mercy. These questions will be on the table. So you know you talked about these different points in the country's history the beer revolutional a some kind of major event could brexit be the time post brexit to to think about this and think about his way of unifying the country. I think it could be whether it unifies. Countries another question but what you see with brexit as i don't think thatta written constitution would have necessarily stopped brexit. I think it would affect how it happened. What i think though and neither do i think it's doesn't lie in my mouth to say here's a constitution itution that would have prevented brexit or would have stopped it or made it better so i don't want to suggest that my argument will will do something to ameliorating the breakfast situation but i think at the same time that brexit is a crisis. It's a crisis for both parties internally as as well as facing the electorate. It's an occasion where we see a surge of populist variety of politics that is incredible. It's an occasion for nationalist politics six in scotland which have which could be destructive of the union <hes> to become incredibly powerful at this time and so i think there will be a doc multi-layered complex crisis and it may be that really inclusive constitution writing process could provide some palliative to what what do you think about this proposal just drift government or personal. What made you choose here. I think yeah i think if people had felt engaged in the process of deciding these questions and they would have a better idea how they were going to play out in a situation like this. I think the issue for me with jests. This proposal is really a practical one so he's talked about how to constitute his assembly in order to essentially break the stranglehold of westminster mr over over the process to ensure that you got these people who are part of the constituent assembly who've who've been appointed three roussel titian but my question is how you get parliament to a point where it would initiate this process because my sense is that parliament's latest encounter with sort of more direct democratic process hasn't been a very comfortable one although the vast majority of m._p.'s are tasty we signed up to delivering the outcome of the referendum the idea of giving away power which i see your argument of evolving the parties in order to make not entirely seemed like that that the idea and also there's a i mean just to be totally practical at the moment is a massive bandwidth issue. I mean this would be a massive process. Opening up all these fundamental questions about the way our country's run and therefore it would be really important to get it right and at the moment you know government is completely <music> a sort of subsumed by the task of doing brexit which is a massive task legislation. We organizing systems setting up new systems bringing all this legislation nation back from the e._u. And just a capacity point that doesn't mean it's not a good idea in principle is something started to sound like his voice of moderation here but it says something short of doing a written constitution on the blinds that you talk about which might make the the whole <hes> some kind of avoided kind of brexit mark to situate- situation i mean look address some of the sort of disasters of befallen us you know the nature of referenda that the referendum with fifty percent plus one palm not knowing what it's doing you know the potential lead no deal without quite knowing whether they promised a kennel i mean he probably know really unless you have a written jewish and you can't stop any of that you you. I mean the advantage of having had a written constitution in this context text is that there would be a process for amending it and you'd you'd have text there that says we are part of the european union. We have to remove that text right now. We have to use the formula for removing yeah. Someone would have thought well what what's the rule of scotland wales northern ireland in this formula. <hes> you know is it. Is it entrenched as a supermajority. I tend to think that it to answer your question more directly if you think is there a halfway house between what i'm guessing what we have now well i was inclined to say a statute that would specify a constitutional amendment formula lista process for deciding these kinds of things but unless you have a definitive list of what is constitutional you. It's very hard to do that. You can't really do it and there is not here. Which is that constitutional. Change has happened in the last twenty years. You had division to scotland and wales. European convention of human rights incorporated into british law the fixed term parliament act which is a sort of bolted on thing exactly yeah so. Are you mean were you. Are you suggesting we could do more piecemeal. Change slightly piecemeal change without anything for it to sort of latch onto excuse me i was just sitting here thinking that the fact that us as an m._p. Suggesting perhaps we could do it. Not the full thing a little piecemeal way of doing. It is a very classic k. way that we would resolve this. We say well. That's too difficult that for just a little bit we could deal with on the edge. That's your your arguments that some people think that served us well but actually when you get into a situation like brexit where so many things come come into play something fixed term parliaments act was created in a very particular contexts to deal with the situation the coalition government it was essentially created to give a liberal democrats confidence that the conservatives weren't going to pull the plug on government part way to the pollen and nobody would have thought at the time about the situation. We're currently in with a minority government supported by the dp and what happens if a prime minister party alexis someone is prime minister who turns out the confidence of the house of commons and what does that do to elections and so right. Let's go to the audience. I if there was a written constitution. Is there much appetite in this country for more of a judiciary supremacy the interpretation of the constitution by the judiciary really good question about the role of the judges <hes> <hes> which is one of the object potential objections did so. I guess i'm still not sold on the problem. Statement feels to me like where we do have written constitutions. That's soft just a situation where the debate gets moved into a different realm effectively. It's not like an america as you pointed out that they have written constitution that those issues. I don't still end up being very hotly debated or very complex to try and work their way through if the politicians want to do something they tried to find their way so i'm not sure why why congress saying that a written constitution is definitely better. Let let me ask you to hold it to microphone for a second so i guess my wasn't the deal i authorities said when i i guess my thing would be i definitely bad written problematic written constitutions botch ward you say to the argument that brexit is the is the kind of guiding is the problem sort of thing that if a country can get into such a mess so an american can joe scarborough presents good morning joe in america said to me he said what kind of country has like one referendum them on one day and then that's it for the you know you suddenly yo your taste that this kind of massive kind of short term and there's no checks and balances and and i don't know what the answer to that question walls so i guess in my mind that was the referendum was foolishly worded right could have set it up in a way where was it was better managed. It was clear the question was was around didn't give any detail that we needed to be able to actually act on right so with a specific problem with the nature of the referendums zoo the nature of random but also unclear to me why if we had a constitution that would have changed the result of not not the result of the referendum but the what's come after it and how to interpret it and those other issues around the ref interesting i think so i think if you look at sort of polls which is people who have confidence in judges come pretty high at the amendment certainly higher than sort of members of parliament but so you could say that there's appetite their four for judges to have you know go in our system equally when we had the mill case with the courts being bought into decide whether parliament and had to pass a law in order to article fifty to be triggered when that judgment was handed down then we had popular newspapers arguing that these were i can't remember the phrase but enemies of the people you know and that is you quite unusual in system the actually the rule of law would be you. Decisions of the judiciary would have been questioned in that way. That's a new situation for us to be so. I think it's not necessarily clear that people. You have massive appetite for judges to decide everything. Judges will be more engaged if we had a written constitution but the judge seem pretty engaged have been pretty engaged throughout this process. There's definitely an argument that if you're k. defying this strong possibility there's going to be more laws and its judges bowl all is to interpret and apply the law as passed by parliament but that's the last year i think is important. So if you had a situation tonight the constituent assembly was coming up with the constitution and then that had to go through parliament and then then judges have to take into account what they think ponant meant where louis paul also. It's not just judges coming up in in bow with what they think should happen but they're all worlds i think jeff i remember so your proposal weather doubt show putting into law of the of the constitution in your scenario would happen directly from the assembly or whether the still have a role in that at the end it it parliament's role will be consultative during the writing of the constitution nothing greater and that's one of the reasons why the argument we don't have time for this doesn't apply here because you constitute a separate assembly to do that and then government gets on with its business managing the disaster the question about is there an appetite to give judges a stronger role well. I think the general answer is no there isn't such an appetite and there is also virulent opposition to doing exactly that why not yeah well. Let's just someone who who believes in in bills of rights and myself and many of my colleagues we're not so keen to massively increase increase the role of judges because we don't want the judiciary to become politicized. We don't want the process to become a circus like it is in the united states and because we think the balance that's shown of restraint but good faith interpretation of rights that exists presently is fairly good at interpreting things like the human rights act so there's no strong strong call for that and certainly not in my argument but <hes> would having written constitution by the very nature of it being written constitution not increase the role played by judges use my view on that is that typically historically. There are two sites in which judges get very involved. One is enforcing the bill of rights and the other isn't dealing with federal questions you know which is it scotland or is it westminster that has these powers we already have legal frameworks for both of these now and contrary to what some say the rule of judges has is not been not spectacular. We've been very little litigation about devolution and the human rights act cases that have led to legislative amendments have been very very small mall in number much smaller than what you get in canada or germany or even france. What about the problem case. The the problem is let me let me missile solving a problem. The other ways to solve sold the problem exactly so first of all. I just want to comment on that. I mean if i'm saying that in a true democracy you people representatives should decide what the law is. I don't have to prove that will also do all these good things like raise g._d._p. And so that's the reason that i like this argument but i think let's pick brexit as an example so i don't take you have one thing. You need to remember about random questions. Is that if they're if they're to nuance people. I don't know what they're voting for. That's why we have electoral commission to do this. It has to be a really straight shot and that means sometimes oversimplifying now. What what a us having had a written constitution have done so i think it wouldn't have stopped brexit for this reason the decision to call the referendum would probably have been an act of parliament wants the referendum decision. Even by slim majority was yes. I think at least two thirds of parliament of m._p.'s would have supported carrying out brexit so let's say your amendment procedure requires two-thirds. That's not what i advocate but most countries have something like that. It's still got through so what's the difference then well. If we the written constitution the role for the european union the role of scotland the procedure would have been spelled out. We wouldn't have had to have the supreme court case because everybody would have known. There's there's a specific way. You amend the constitution. It's these following steps. We're going to need an octa parliament. I also think that if as what i'm proposing <hes> unita eater referendum to ratify constitutional amendments then in the current situation we would've had a second referendum because the first referendum was about whether to leave the second referendum is to decide whether the specific proposal for how to amend the constitution in what the relationship with the e._u. would be what itself have to go again to the people now. That's not in my sort of you know remain our way of trying to regional repo- kary no the rug. If i'll i use it from now on that that's not something that i built into. I just realized shortly before giving the electron which this articles based that that would follow from from my proposal proposal and lastly. I don't think we have a situation with royal assent propagation of parliament food co. Defy the constitution within the last twenty years okay. Do we talk about the jeff or chrissy. Yes yes finally so. I think i'd be <hes> <hes> amenable to <hes> constitution in the jeff crecy if the with the g j yeah but this is a beautiful moment j._j. <hes> jeff sharing a stage definitely lovely thing to witness what what if i put you in charge of the constitution the pair of you first thing day one what do you do i think or they benevolent dictator we should be curb your powers and all the podcasts and work out who the presidents and let me i tell you and then we should know this is your one shot had been prime minister. Thank you know that i know there's sometimes to higher price to pay but yeah i think we need the buy in of the of the podcast audience to ratify the powers that you should have to just oh gosh well if i were put in power in true jeff crecy with j. it would be. I'd probably want to keep the first-past-the-post system and keep things as they are because i could. I could have much more power but if if if if i was being true to my beliefs i think <hes> what i would do is suggest that we would have this. I mean look there. I have my views about what i would like to see the constitution. I think you might be getting this. You know i think we should put social rights into the constitution for instance but a lot of my work has been about but my case this the rights to health care social security so that's another thing that written decision to do it. Could we put that. I think that probably they might be there. They might not probably not in the current climate <hes> i would argue for including them but my argument today the democratic doesn't talk about content it only talks about the process and it also has something to say about how deeply entrenched the constitution because if your argument is democratic the people should decide whether you can adopt a constitution that will stay in force for for many generations. It should be something that to or should be kept in force against what a majority of people presently want so to answer your question more directly. I would say that you would. I would institute this constituent assembly. Let them get on with their work and i would suggest that to <hes> abide by the democratic argument the constitution should not be deeply entrenched should be amendable by act of parliament and referendum and that the whole package should come up about once in the generation for renewal that is that the constitution would automatically retire. Would they be elections in this situation. I think just not keen on elections with the that all right jeff. If it's everyone else has elected its finance retired is. I'm not sure that's the way it will be there ex-officio. Maybe okay jeff king white. Thank you so much for joining us and let's bring you on this in which you say we've made a real message of a couple of puffs occur lord. Thank you come in you. A yesterday. I was mundy's. Saltzman was recording his podcast quite often. I know it's from twitter that your mom was keen to come yesterday yet but you didn't ask food but none of your family extra tickets to come today so yes my mom my mom and dad really love and these oltman sman because if you don't know andy's osmond he's brilliant satirical comedian and he's also a cricket writer who writes indian cricket website so zolt has an inexplicably cobley large asian fan base two of whom are mr mrs koma so they didn't wanna come eight now. Basically i forgot to tell tell the dog is doing this podcast and i'm gonna be angry text message when this when this means released also that your in-laws podcast your your girlfriend's movement or the podcast funds all them with you pod save america yeah yeah yeah they didn't worry. I basically forgot to tell ever rose doing this and so i'm going to get a a string of angry text messages from my parents and my partner's parents and your partner is dealing with a with a big issue. Listen we got we. You got a fat bug in the house and it's like in the drains outside our house. There's a big like and the thing is. I didn't really deal with it last week. I just kept saying also out on saturday morning. There's sort of a deluge of human faces in our back garden and it was like what does your supposed supposed to deal with it. You're supposed to call someone knows. I don't know plumbing and part of the metropolitan liberal i don't know how to do plumbing even even pronounce the word without saying the b but yeah so anyway. We've called a guy and he's sort of got a big anyway yesterday. As i was standing there in a mess entirely if my own making fell very close to leave us for the first time just refusing to knowledge you being blamed in the office in the house for this for this no no i think what's happened. Is we have moved house very recently and i think we've essentially inherited a fab berg. It's like when people move into a house in scooby doo and there's it goes there except instead of a ghost a lump of human feces. Now i want to ask you you. You did a big toe around the country recently but you've also done some shows in the states as as you present situation as you see it to them. How insane do we look well. It's difficult because because i think i feel like all of the americans that i met believe that they are in more trouble than us and i i think i don't know where that you may be able to correct me on this. I feel that we are in more trouble than america because they have a constitutional. If he wins next year they deserve everything but they still have a constitutional. It'll mechanism to scrutinize the kind of catastrophic decisions i make but they will also be gone. After a i mean he'll say it'd be gone after eight years. Gain fingers crossed. It's like we hope that he's i saw really upsetting time magazine digital from cover last week where they just had billboards for trump campaigning for the next election for the next four years almonds almonds number tonight but in theory he has to go whereas we are trapped in a ceaseless groundhog day nightmare. They're very downbeat. Don't be about their prospects and the more i think they have faith in us. The completely unfounded still still yeah. I still think they feel or certainly the americans i i mean i perform to it. When i say americans it was in new york so i mean americans in the loosest form of the term life but yeah they definitely definitely they definitely were very they would more be about our prospects than we are about those but they're very baffled by the whole thing in my experience as a way an some ideas we actual potential reasons for tiffany. If we pass them focus on activity i won my first. One is anyone who refers to ah climate change from now on is forced should have to be strapped to the exhaust of a car for a full day and have the fumes pump directly into their lungs like i i think this point you gotta be using the phrase climate crisis or fucking nightmare like those are the only two acceptable terms for climate change. That's right now like i think that that phrase climate change is such a rhetorical problem for all of us because it just seems like us climate change before and global warming sounds good like like that sounds like something that's positive and we sort of words that we use to describe a mortgage was should we easing than hitler. What should i be used. Should i be using something crisis voices. You say those words and terms matter. It sounds to you just to soothing sounds fine change. You like oh yeah that means. It probably routinely like that's. I think that's genuinely how people view it rather than you know. There's a meteo oh five minutes away from here and we need to change though with climate rebellion is the message has got through to a lot more people even in the past year or so yeah i feel like that but on the other hand there seemed to be a lot of people based on the news this week who are in favor of strangling climate protesters by the nag lake the fallout the the way that that's been written about. I mean i saw julia hartley brewer who is not a good bellwether for anything except possibly the majority of the british electorate say something like within a few years later. She said well a few years. We'll all feel like doing this. She said on radio program and you kind of like lion aligned y you annoyed without getting into any of the issues that people shouldn't strangle other people which i can't believe i'm having to say is the thing that's bad going to relearn that. We've already freeland that lesson. You can strangle women. We could put in the constitution in that in the law but yeah i think the way that you the way that the fallout is i think is very very weird. I don't know what it is but for some reason this week has really bummed me out like like i know the justified not justified if anything the fat burg has been a bit of light relief. Hey guys western democracies collapsing the other hand. There's a big. I love pu blocking madrid for some reason. This week is really bummed. Me out like i feel like the way that the boris johnson story has been reported. That'd everyone's been like <hes> accom. Believe those bloody remainders pulling the police because a woman was screaming the the mail this morning has done like syms house house recreation of the flats and he like it was someone's job to do that. Well the fuck is wrong with you. People and then the fact that donald trump this week has had another serious allegation levelled at him and he's just shrugged off without any problem seems fundamentally depressing to me and the fact that you you know an m._p. Strangled a woman and lots of her colleagues. Lots of his colleagues have come out kind of being like well. She could have had a gun. He strangled was is the gun in her mouth. The hell is wrong with these people. I suppose what is also disturbing is the first time that brexit the poison of brexit bread to a different issue because because that wasn't about bricks complete i mean yeah you know it's yeah but somehow it's all now part of like there's a sort of culture war that you find yourself either side of and somehow it's able to take in your position on brexit your position on women's rights your position john gabe rights and for some reason also your position on whether or not humans should continue to live on this planet. I would have thought that that would be a pretty universally like we're all all in favor of that but actually suggest something which is maybe it's only the people on twitter who are in this war or at least it's a lot of people onto the problem is some of the people on twitter are members of parliament. That's the issue really is that we can talk about the culture wars being something that's happened on social media but johnny mercer is a member of parliament and he was out defending marshfield this week and johnny manziel is going you know he's going to have a say in the direction of the next government <music> as we go into the crucial phase witold. The late is brown of crucial phases. Now i will hold on the most people don't think walmart offi will did as acceptable so do i. Club the climate crisis israel. You know what i mean. Yeah i'm so struggling because it feels like culturally and i think brexit is done. This is created this polarization where it's not really just about where you stand on the european. It's actually emblematic of all all of your values and you find it with your audiences. Now my audiences are i made self selecting in verse as well. I i think my audience might be living somewhere to the left of the like my audience i literally walked out in birmingham and there was a row of people wearing pride tee shirts. Let's and a man had bought an e you flag to wave and you're like this is not representative british public. You get to live in a parallel universe some yeah i totally live in a completely different like adjusted reality where everyone is just very groovy and like it's really just this audience. Give yourself the chair for being group. It's like the you know. I'm very aware that i've like i did whatever is sixty dates over a period of about six months did did you beat voter. Yes sometimes the ones that this types of vote the come to see me. One of them is people who are like. I still think you funding like it's like a sort of badge of honor that they they're able to enjoy the comedy and unite all right. I don't know i don't know what you got out of it but a fair enough and then there's sort of another leave. Oh who gets angry and on two two or three occasions tackled me and i tried to sort of open up a meaningful line of dialogue with them and on every occasion they walked out and i said to mytalk manager. Why is this happening. I'm trying to open a line of dialogue and he's like listen. They love to leave. If you funny you children's it's very funny. It's like if you're opening up on the state to find yourself in opposition to a group of people who likes to leave things there is a chance they going to walk out because i want to defend devotes most well. I think many votes would find you funny and yeah fine of values in common yeah yeah. I think that those aren't the kind of lead vocals the kickoff they they're not going to kick off if they come to the show right so they're not the kind of leave it you really and that's sort of the problem i think with brexit as a whole the at no point sit for minute one when she said brexit means brexit are no deal is better than a bad deal. She immediately beat. It deleted the existence of non hard brexit. It created a paradigm by which the only way to deliver lever brexit was to be in favor of a kind of no deal hardest of hard post phya erection hard brexit but that was the only the only way that it could possibly exist cities and the city she did that and i've seen people of various discussions going on about that and i've seen people say well. It's people it's kind of hard remain as who drove things the other way and but i feel that by coming out and immediately say no deal. Is that a bad deal. She created the idea that the only family version of brexit is the hardest possible brexit. I'm we're sort of living in the consequences of that decision because even when boris johnson criticizing here he would often refer to the mansion house speech page as being an example of when he was in favour of theresa may's brexit policy so she created stick by which her opponents could beat her with another idea initiative every decade you lose another form of social media like every decade i think every decade you should have one social media taken off view and i don't mean like randomly. I mean specifically. I think if you're thirty years old and you're still on snapchat you should be on a register. I think absolutely absolutely unacceptable snap. Okay okay place for teenagers. Let's have you of their hanging like. Hey guys remember blur a._c._s. Get now. Let's have some honesty who here is over thirty on on snapchat stray off auto register register pedo pedo paid life returned to you. Lou snapchat gone forty what happened you lose instagram people before to posing like this fuck volchkov then then fifty twitter. You got to go to a six-month <music> countered by komo count and i quite like enforced retirement for yeah. I think it might you know. I think it might actually help everyone. Then it's sixty facebook the thing people over sixty having political arguments over facebook is so i have a great uncle india and so in my family in this country. There is no real skit like we all voted remained. There's no we don't have that thing that i have white friends of mine that like have have to impose no politics takes conversations rules family dinners and stuff to maintain order and decorum. We don't really have that broadly in my family but both sides of my family is from india and the kind of great schism zim there is over whether you are pro or anti moldy and i see those kind of arguments play out on facebook and like my grandma's brother other is like my great uncle is like seventies. It's thought posting memes like dank names on facebook and you're like you have grandchildren like like this is not okay dang bug electoral. The equivalent of a blockbuster never thought about the price tag. It's it's it's like trolling. It's posting and the to whom you're the other half the anti b._j._p. Section of my family and what are they doing back. They're sort of like big like each piece of shit. You know these are all it's so funny what they go because in some ways we're very nontraditional indian family but in other ways we're very traditional indian families so like when you greet your elders the idea is if you're a younger person literally bend over and touch their feet so we are now in a situation where people are coming in touching watching the eldest fee and then standing up and being like you piece of shit. It's such a way it. My mom won't let me join at her indian family whatsapp group because she says it is and this is a direct quote so filled with bile. I'm worried it will affect your mental health because i just think that if you're looking if you were sixty and absorbing the number one source of your information is facebook. I think is the sixty actually because also so i think the delgado was having an all your someone on the train about agenda twenty ones anyone ever heard of agenda twenty one. It's some innocent u._n. Document that's become a big right wing conspiracy theory and i was only going with the woman who lives in stoke-on-trent that it wasn't the world wasn't the world wasn't going to have some massive. This is why you shouldn't people on. I saw twenty twenty one that wasn't going to be some kind of communist homosexual revolution which is which is agenda. Twenty one is <hes>. I said it was absolutely true. And then i said and then i said honesty. You shouldn't believe what you read on on facebook. Things are the b._b._c. They're more reliable aww shit baby now that re- did test my i mean facebook is a disaster in that respect but i do think there's something about when you grow up with the internet if you've grown up with the internet from an early age and i mean this is not entirely true but people are closer to being what's called digital natives. I think how are you now. I think i'm just on the job just to pitch native. I think basically yeah borderline exactly yeah. I think that when you grow grow up we is the guys i'm allowed to be on twitter for another four year term rubber in your constituency yes millennials. I think yeah right yes that guy carriers yeah you uh-huh honoree millennial status but in four seventy five th. I don't think there's anything left lane off. Link tenants seven take if if the if the career recruitment hasn't happened by seventy it's not gonna happen between sixty and seventy faraway link to end because there's the limited amount of damage in all seriousness. Isn't it better just to not look at these things. Yeah i mean i went through a period of three months where i was off. I think in late two a. j. t. and it was really really found it. Good being not honor can again. Why did i don't know i just don't know thrills. Also we're all i mean you guys are dank imposters. You guys are pervasive dank names. You feel great when you change your name on twitter to chaos with military seventeen eighteen thousand forty two. It's all sort of playing with your head. Isn't it yeah i mean i think yes i mean there's is a certain level of professional obligation for some like that's the facility currently the most effective way to promote shows and promote tors and stuff like that. I just find people kicking the shit out of each other on twitter so awful jim eighties. I mean the identity. I never thought i'd be in defensive twitter twitter but the only thing i will say is that big onto definitely opened mind too because there is no editorial filter on the one hand. You're seeing the worst most of humanity but on the other hand. I don't think you know like i would have almost no awareness of trans issues without social. That's like a really positive thing reading trans rights on twitter israeli positive thing i think things like black lives matter a facility and even the metoo movement facilitated by hashtag attacked by participation and i don't think that those two movements could have grown so organically in an older media landscape so i think the six months left enjoy linked to sweat for another towards what she left. Idea politicians are not allowed legally to appear on comedy panel shows. I've turned down every client. That's why i knew i was like yeah. I respect the hell out of that yeah. I just think it's not done us any. He good looks at it out but i get twenty and so i'm everyone's going to be like thank goodness trump hosted s._n._l. That really was a satirical jab in the eye for his prospects so created a bit of and listen. I am part of the same problem because i also think this has to work the other way. If you can't have politicians on comedy panel shows you can't have comedians on question time and i'm happy to forgo that day of stress and why i think what's been the lasting arm. I think boris johnson <hes> yeah i think boris johnson is the straw that broke this asians back. I think the good news for you. A lot of farraj has been on jacob. Bruce morton has been on and the thing is i think it was on nick clegg in many ways the worst he's the worst he's the apps is the facilitator of it. These the richard hammond of this dynamic announced to those of us team. That's duly routine about top gear. Clegg is the richard hammond of the destruction of bridged political discourse anyway. What was was. I saying nick legs the worst anyway it. I had to stop my father from yelling at him garden event once. My dad is so angry about nick clegg because my dad feels that he's portrayed anyway all of that stuff so what he was going to yell. I think it wouldn't have been particularly coherent. It might have been something like like fuck. You clegg mistaken for nick leg which happens to me whatever i mean. I get mistaken for romesh so in many ways we've all got problems. Why guy in a suit i guess i just think that it's generally he part of. I think that the line between politicians and entertainers should be as blurred as it is right now. I don't people hold say to me. Are you going to run for office and i go. Are you fucking height like what i am not qualified and the very fact that people are even having entertaining entertaining conversation about it. Why do you say yes to question time them because i also have this okay. I got really drunk and question time was on and it was a bunch of people that i disagreed with and i have been asking me and i said no because i know about really watch comedy found especially what she might risk risk seeing that thing that comes on after question time. It's like the first god gone at anyway. I would not say anything oh by andrew neil because he gets he does not like me and he has made those views very clear and i do not wish to stoke the beef any further in the gammon. That's your your phrase. I'll phrase. I am disassociating myself. I think outer nail is a very every respectable broadcaster and his hair is definitely real. I think all of our think all of those things he's one of our nation's leading lights and a utah oughta wig. You agreed to go out and basically i've been on a few times because i also have this weird deluded when your when your brow i unaware that sometimes you feel an obligation which may be it completely deluded sense of self-importance. Wherever you have a i sent to you have to say yes to these things because you are somehow representing your community and you are representing the views of people of color and because they're so a few of us that achieved prominence in the kind of media landscape when you get asked you sort of have a responsibility and how was it you know experience transfer you well three and the experience was sort of like it was the first time i did it. I was physically sick all day like literally a unwell like non-fat berg. Let's put it that way flight very thin but it was fine because i was on with piers morgan which actually made your felt made me feel legitimized because he like he's on it. I can definitely be on like. I'm an idiot but he's much stupid of them right. So it sounds like the only time it was properly. It was a bad atmosphere because i had an argument with melanie phillips and i slightly lost my composure in that moment which i regret ah because you shouldn't. I don't think you should give these people decide. Spark should've knowing that they got you but she did really get to me this anything that you need to to get people to buy tickets to edinburgh. I'm doing edinburgh the last six days of the cold. It's in your nature to destroy yourselves. It's it's both the description of our current political climate and a quote from terminator two and says a reason to be cheerful. Is that a reason to be careful. We'll be say we know you will feel optimistic at the end yes. There is some really contrived. Optimism at the end is in no way genuine. Just is designed to end the show with the sort of got misusing. The fat bug will be defeated by then. I think hopefully i'm hoping once i take my phone off airplane mode the fatburger will be we dead. Do it now imagine if i get a text message thank. The house has been consumed by the phone book. This is the first time i can honestly say that i have done a live live commentary on whether a fat burg has been disciplined eliminate. This is worth losing general election forms <hes> <hes> it's dead this. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you king and uh-huh why thank you to you. You've been a brilliant audience. Give yourself a big round of applause. He's speed that milburn jeff loye as of reasons to be cheerful.
"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the twenty ninth of January two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Andrew Miller on today show. Buddha. What I'm doing? Oh. Another busy day for the speaker of the house. My guests joylin deco and Lance price will be discussing this and the day's other top stories, including a dramatic escalation of the United States spat with war way, the climates and fallers in transparency. International's latest corruption perceptions index and. A final item teased by honking Lee. Obvious musical cue. That's coming up on Meduri house on monocle twenty four right now. And welcome to Madari house. My guest today are Lance priced political commentator and former special adviser to Prime Minister, Tony Blair enjoy LA deco columnist with the Evening Standard. Welcome both. And we will start tonight. He in the UK, and with Brexit a thing, which as things stand is going to happen in fifty nine days, not that you'd necessarily know it from me leisurely pace at which British legislators are continuing to propose and debate means of accomplishing it, which obviously won't work today's exercises in dick share rearrangement in the shadow of the iceberg have once again, four grounded the role of the speaker of the house, John berko who has become the subject of international attention like few if any of his predecessors, and has given very little indication that he isn't enjoying it all immensely Lance festival. I I shouldn't be laughing at this point. I have to leave here as well. Theresa May is going to ask it says he the EU to reopen the rural agreement. I is Mike what are they doing? Well, it's interesting isn't it because it's not so very long, and she was telling us that. There was no possibility of reopening, the agreement has a you have reiterated about a dozen times today alone told they have a piece of paper ready to issue as soon as the house of Commons voted saying that there is no prospect of a renegotiation. However, she has back to self been backed into such a tight corner that she's running out of options. And this is the one she's chosen to go full. So she's actually asking her own MP's tonight ineffective vote against her own agreement that she goes you to the European Union, or at least to say that it isn't adequate as to be changed, even though as a said, she's been saying for a long time that accomplish joys, Sarah tendency, still in British politics that well, I don't know whether they either think the EU is bluffing or what we're witnessing is the political version of that that old school British belief that they're basically two languages in this world. There is English. And there is English shouted. I is there just a feeling that. If you yell at these people are not these these these querulous jerked foreigners. They will eventually do what they're being told. Well, I hate to give Theresa May any credit, but she does do one thing read fewer which gets his idea that sometimes when she needs to change something. She wait herself stand down, but she will place the idea it an get somebody else to do it and grain Brady who is the man who's bringing this amendment to reopen. Negotiations is lead with nineteen twenty two committee, which governing committee of the of the conservative party and the amendment will do something which the EU in a sense logically has to concede. So the EU in theory would Knicks EU several only extend article fifty deadline would that be general election or referendum? That's the word that keeps coming out of it. But Theresa May I think he's via Brady basic saying if our parliament is also came to change, which is not that different from, you know, the the weight of general election or referendum, Sean. Early at that point. You have to go back to the table. If the British parliament says this way, do will the twenty seven cave in will by asking will they cave in? I think that they don't they begin to look unreasonable. Wall. We are following the precedent established the by joy extending ju- credit to people to whom we might not normally otherwise granted in the last few minutes all of elect when the conservative MP has stood on the floor of the house of Commons and said woods, the fact that he's frankly past caring what sort of agreement is reached as long as an agreement is reached has all of Letwin for the first and possibly lost time in his life spoken for the British people. I was going to say that all of let win is not normally what you would describe as a man of the people say, I should say not only what you would describe as a man of the people. But I I'm sure that there is a very large proportion of the British population. If not of jersey the population feel very much like in that they just want to see it sorted outs. Cleaner said almost exactly the same words as I left the house to come to the show this evening. She said that all of. She's just sort it out. I mean, come on. Yes. Feeling and people look at the house of Commons. And they think you know, what on earth to be elected people to do. They've lost track of the debate. They've stopped following the debate. I think most people, and they certainly wish and pray that the house of Commons could come to some sort of resolution that were when the deal that the prime minister Goshi it was voted down. So massively by two hundred thirty those there were two ways you could have gone. She could have tried to seek cross-party agreement which she said she was going to do. But she really didn't try to do at all. And that was ability because you could find an agreement within parliament of this difficult because the EU no that there could be an agreement that could be a majority within parliament for something that when closer to the labour party's position, including customs unions that option is there. She chose not to take that option basically because of the risk of splitting our party, and and leaving conservatives out of office for who knows how long she. She went the other way, she's decided to carry on allowing the Brexit here tail to wag the Tory dog and try to appease both her own hardline. Brits, it is. And the joy, we did want to talk about the role that the speaker of the house John berko has played in all this. What do you make of suggestions that he is enjoying this rather too much? But it's the theatrical hasn't it has been quite the, although it is a theatrical role to very large extent, the speaker of the house of it is there's a could Quentin let's of the Daily Mail who's both theater critic and their sketch writer, and he seems to call. I mean, he's been having a book I for years and years now and up she enjoys it. It's like giving him a one star rating for every single performance and the way berko shouts order order, which is not far off audio ordure. Burke has been very controversial figure because he was originally a right wing. In fact, he was part of libertarians twenty five thirty years ago, a group that were accused of having printed hang Nelson Mandela t shirts, and this is sort of long slow journey from that right wing of the party to something that is very centrist. And he's been accused of almost turning into a social 'Socialist, and he married social law married, a socialite socialist who has a sticker in the back of the call the wife burqa claims, which says bullocks to Brexit. So, you know, so he's become a politicized figure. Is he enjoying this? Yes. It's great theat caro-. But previous speakers have also enjoyed it as well. Is he pushing through amendments or changing the nature of the house in order to change the story of Brexit? Well, all give me with Dominic grieve amendments a couple of weeks ago. Yes, he was. He was a upending precedence all the way in order to make sure this debate the parliament RAV than the government was leading it. And so I was not surprised for example, find that. I mean at a right to be on there. But the vet Cooper's amendment and Dominic grieve amendment ones that we're going to be on this evening because it moves the power from the speaker to parliament rolls into the executive final quick thought on this one lunch. Do you think the speaker has these schools, not sure that phrase means? I only this sense in all of joys as -solutely, right? But what John berko is a great defender of parliament. Now, he's had terrible run ins with the executive with government with ministers with the prime minister and the previous prime minister, they loathe each other. But what he is huge defender of parliament in the decisions that he's taken. They've nearly all been about empowering parliament to use its influence uses power. Now, those who think that parliament actually is basically made up of a majority of people who actually rather we're leaving the European Union a tool which may in their heart of hearts beat true that empowering parliament, maybe Tilton tools. The remain side all the softer Brexit side. But I think he would say in his own defense and also foreign as he's not here with seasoning that I think is about democracy and the power of parliament against the executive more than veils even more than his own ego. Okay. Well, let's move along. Now and look at the recently, Rick. Not relationship between the United States and China, which has become even rickety to your which the announcement by the US department of Justice that it intends to pursue a bunch of criminal charges against Chinese mobile phone leviathan railway, the allegations include Bank fraud technology and obstruction of Justice and attentive listeners will recall the all ready ongoing rail concerning the arrest of way, executive Ming run Joe in Canada last month and the subsequent probably not coincidental. Arrests of a few unfortunate Canadians in China far away denies everything. But then they would joy is this part of a bigger picture. He do we think about a possibly overdue reckoning between governments and tech foams of all kinds of it is the nature of technology that it tends to outstrip at least initially attempts to regulate it and the story is safe as native. That's correct. It is about a reckoning with tech firms. It's also about a reckoning with particular Chinese culture, which is that of espionage, which was runs through everything they do, and it also relates to Trump in the US, China trade walls, and you know, the great quality competitor is apple and quays stealing market share. What heavily and we saw Apple's stock price full. The other point about technology is it it is actually so disempowering governments because these technology firms have more power more -bility to gain information, you know, the the security agencies every country kind of racing to keep up with any firm that can do technology at very false rate. You know, the US is going against apple itself to unlock thing to awesome to unlock phones because they can't get into them lunch. Do you think these charges by the well being pressed by the DOJ are actually entirely separate from the widest between the US and China China, resolve Asli going to claim otherwise if it hasn't already not entirely, I mean, there's two things one is the breach of sanctions against Iran. And that was that was what Ming Ranjha was originally held. And we those of us who disagree with Trump's position on sanctions because the raw maybe more sanguine about that than the other allegations. But the other Gatien's about using the technology to spy on either on individ-. Usuals or? As a form of industrial espionage, encouraging Stathis industrial espionage. If it was just the Americans. We might think hang on what's going on here. But don't forget, the Australians and New Zealand. They've both band claw away from bidding for their five G contract. Big questions over whether they'll be allowed to bid UK Canada's. Well, the European Union of race here is questions about it. So I think that an all of those people have looked very closely at the evidence before reaching those conclusions. So tempting though, it is to say it's just part of Trump's spat with with China. I think it's clearly goes deeper than joy, do you think western countries, the United States United kingdom and destroy your New Zealand as Lance mentions have hitherto been possibly complacent in outsourcing so much of their communications infrastructure to a foreign country whose friendliness towards the west blitz say count, always be taken for granted. I think they probably have been because we have known it China as a cultural espionage for a long time. This curious services are whether espionage is now Paul of almost the industrial strategy of China and its pricing that it's almost taken this long to work out. The way may be. I mean, it's corruption it's fraud. It's technology theft. It's infiltrating mobile phones. None of this is probably surprising to the community experts who will be saying this to government for very long time. But it has taken this long to get some action on it. You might say look at China's rapid industrial growth. China's never had is now beginning to have a stronger copyright policy, but incense in census, communist and communal in its interpretation multi-use own intellectual property. Oh, this is just the sort of the role, the nausea flipside of it. Which is if you go to. Into foreign countries. You are wanting to steal military secrets secrets and steal the technological secrets to gain the hand again in advance and China arguably has done that pretty down. Well, they're also, of course, and their attitude tools tech companies is very different to the that we have in the west. So if you look at the the fact that they banned Google and then try to open up negotiations with Google about sort of Google Lytle, Google, heavy whatever would be a very constrained version of Google that didn't allow search for everything that you wanted to. In some ways in the west where we fret about how you can challenge. Tech companies. The China's have shown that it is possible to do it. But if you want to do it that way of that model for doing clearly is something that most British consumers would have very considerable doubts about just to follow that up. Quickly lands should western countries. Think of our way and other Chinese companies as effectively arms of the Chinese communist party, even if they're not should they be regarded as VAT kind of potentially dangerous to deal with an or to allow to embed too, deeply in your own countries communications infrastructure. I wouldn't go that far. I mean, they're not an extension of the Chinese government and the, but the the nature of the relationship with the Chinese government is pretty opaque. So it's very hard for those of us outside of China. Probably most people inside China to be able to answer your question directly. But it does mean that we have to treat them with great care and caution and. And I think that the evidence has been presented to governments clearly suggests that there's a very very big problem. Okay. We're gonna take a short break. Now. You're listening to Meduri house with me under along with lots price. Enjoy a deco coming up next further evidence that electing a private property spiv and chronic Griffin. President might not have been the brightest idea. The United States has ever had. Perk up and tackle Markle's fit February issue. This is an essential guard for those looking to get in fighting shape for two thousand nineteen. I thought we take a look at the people leading the way in whittling nations waistlines from Catta to Tana to Norway onto the business section where we sit down with Airbus's see about what's in store Fabian before checking out the company streamlining and speeding up to liveries in culture, we meet Rome's top art restorers and in design we touchdown in Palma to meet Ola. The smart architecture firm transformed palace to a sleek hotel. February issue is out. Now, get your copy today also describe at Monaco dot com. You are back with Meduri house with me under Melissa with me. I'll join the deco and Lance price. Now in most advanced western countries citizens are fond of complaining that this society is hopelessly corrupt. These people are buying lodge wrong. Certainly when compared with most of the rest of the planet, Transparency International has released its annual index of corruption perceptions ranking a hundred eighty countries in order from least corrupt to most as usual, the top places more or less a lookout for Scandinavia and northern Europe give or take Canada New Zealand and Singapore, arguably the most catching development, this is the slide of the United States, which finds itself outside the top twenty joy index isn't always basically just an argument in favor of democratic institutions is a fairly obvious correlation. And we will get onto the horse versus caught aspect of this argument shortly between relative lack of corruption and relative surplus of democracy. She look. Look at the map and transparent national puts out a map, and the countries that are deemed least corrupt or yellow in those most corrupt Allred, and it is just a pool of northern Europe. You'll see beginning to turn tools, orange in southern Europe. Canada is lovely bright sunlight yellow the US has gone orange. And then there is a kind of deep orange colour and then fulling to read so yes, it's kind of constant confirmation of a particular set of values that transparence Nash international. Cold weather keeps people on us. But does not necessarily kind of correlate with, you know, it's not it's not on living standards notes on growth of a country its potential the country. So. You know, you y we decide that democracy is always the finest valley that which aren't to uphold lens to most citizens. Do you think of relatively on corrupt countries like this one, for example, the United Kingdom ranking at eleven equal with Germany between Luxembourg and destroy? You do people enjoy overestimating? How bent this societies are? Yeah. I think so I hope because I believe it to be true that most people in this country don't think we live in a fundamentally corrupt country. Now, if you go to some countries in southern Europe, even in France in a lot of citizens fronts would would say that they felt the country was at a degree of corruption that concerned and far more so than we have in this country. But did we should get holier than thou about it? I don't think we do live in a particularly corrupt cruncher within the country at all really. But we certainly collude with corruption. And it may be that we are full. To do that in order to win contracts for sending arms to Saudi Arabia or wherever else it may be. But it's not the the fact that our hands are relatively clean domestically. Doesn't mean that we don't muddy them when we get out there into the international market the freedom to complain about corruption is part of an aspect of democracy, which should be upheld Susan title, and it's transparency internationally. It's actually the transparency that goes with democracy that should be the best ball against corruption. Yeah. Because I mean, the the argument that I think a lot of British people would make or those with memory stretching back to the MP's expenses scandal of about two thousand eight two thousand nine was that it revealed a culture of endemic corruption. But but land all put this you did it really on the one hand corruption was clearly occurring. But on the other hand, it could be argued that those who corrupt GOP court. Yeah. I wouldn't wanna get into semantic argument about it. But I think I actually wouldn't class that as. Serious case of corruption. It was the Sears wrongdoing. But it wasn't serious case of corruption. Corruption is more about you know, I'll let you build a house in St. here, if you put ten grand into my private accounts that nobody else can trace what we had with the expenses scandal was MP's being told that they could claim for certain things and then thinking, okay, well, a Royal do it then and that intern at happened because the prime minister at the time of Thatcher wasn't prepared to give him a pay rise and agreed to a system of expenses and allowances which bumped up the an income of of of MP's artificial now when all that became public through the efforts principally the data telegraph, but of the media will generally then people were horrified about it. And rightly horrified about it an MP should have said hi on a second. We know we're not going to collude in this. But I wouldn't say that was corruption in the sense that we're talking about all windy that Transparency International Mitchell about that. Put me in mo-, enjoy of something I was once told by a senior politician in country with corruption issues, and I thought it was it was an interesting an interesting perception, he he said that in his view off gotta get this the right way around. He's people don't corrupt system systems corrupt people you need to change the system how easy difficulties to turn it around. Do you think they have been some improves this year, Stony Cote, d'ivoire, Senegal and Ghana and? Historic example, which is Georgia the former Soviet state which managed to turn from bring pretty much the most corrupt nation in the world to one of the cleanest a series of Georgian politicians studied in US, universities when back took over this onto Saakashvili absolutely cleaned up the system, so that you know, when you were driving down the road to policeman could not asking for a bribe. They were they were filming they didn't have live streaming of police busting into corrupt businessman's houses, and they managed to change the system and the culture in a matter of years and everything started working again, I'm not quite sure what the state of play play is now. But so it is possible to change it. But it is a system of the people, and what you can get away with how indicative all those those small transactions between the citizen and the state of being that example of police officers, I've been in places where when a police officer cost you they they are basically rent-seeking these understood that you will pay them a bribe. But I can also remember talk. Talking to a career British police officer knocking him if anybody ever offered him a bribe. And he said, yes, only once and I said, how did you react? And he looked at me absolutely Gosden said, how do you think are reacted nickname for that as well? And and I think that is indicative, and it hasn't impacted shows the way in which a corrupt society corrupts, the individuals within the society in that people become complicit within if they can afford to pay that bribe to get off a speeding fine or to get a driving licence for this or to, you know. You know, get hold of a flat. My always be able to get. There are plenty of good people in countries like Italy in the past Bob still now, it's certainly in India and African countries who would do that good people who allow themselves to become corrupted because it's the only way to defeat the system. Well, that puts me of something that an opposition politician in another country with issues of this once said to be he said, you keep asking me questions about the system being corrupt. You'll misunderstanding here. Corruption is the system we we will move along. However, finally tonight to eleventh place, Germany, a nation, often stereotypes not altogether without reason as country characterized by tilles observance of rules and regulations down to and including don't walk warnings on even the most tumble. Weed strewn thoroughfare, an exception to this rule about rules has long been the autobahn network large stretches of which have no speed limits beyond the power of individual cars and the nerves of the drivers despite. Opinion polls suggesting that a majority of Germans now favor limits to battle climate change. Apparently, it has been confirmed that no such compulsion. To take your foot off will be enacted a joy in general. What do you think of no limit roads? Are you are you enough of an unoccupied -tarian you'll perfectly okay with that idea? Now, I didn't know I wasn't that. She I've I've never actually driven on a no limit road. But I do the idea of the sense of freedom and this audio you can do what you want. But I also believe in a rules based society intellectually. So no, However, I think Germany taking that once trying to stop the no limit road is a tragedy for the country. It's the one place the one thing the Germans can do. They can just let loose a nobody's gonna stop them for what they're gonna do. But my follow up question to you would be joy does the auto Bahn system only work because it's Germany, and because it's Germans, yes. But also because it's BMW's coming down there. And you know, they've got some of the best cars in Europe. Can you imagine all system where we sort of clunky? Little kind of what do even produce any more mini Coopers or you've got your landrover constantly breaking down. I mean, I didn't think I'll kind of limitless rates would get beyond one hundred the thing is I have driven rather as a non driver. I've been driven on they weren't officially no limit roads. But they were in practice. No. Limit roads. And they were absolutely utterly terrifying. One of them in Georgia, in fact, that you would just extol e earlier, which is possibly the most frightened. I have ever been in my life. Think of the kind of the way gems do business with each other. They will find a way of driving those roads, which is courteous, which doesn't infringe on somebody else's liberty. But they can still boom it down there. And they, you know, this isn't on stunning every every every city every country has kind of culture of roads, and they'll be able to do it. But there is there's a question here. I think Lance about whether that kind of free for all does only work in fairly rigidly rules by society, a friend of mine who worked in development in Afghanistan did give me an anecdote of unintended consequence. When at great expense to the west and tax play. They repaved many of the city highways between the great cities of Afganistan, kabul-jalalabad Kaunda and so forth. Now, I'd been on those roads in the late nineties and often it was possible to get out and walk alongside vehicle. You could barely move. Therefore, it was actually impossible to do at he series damage. But once the roads was smooth, they became apparently absolute death traps. Yeah. Foss driving on motorways is not particularly dangerous because on the number of accidents military's is remarkably low they are very very safe pieces of tarmac. Now. There are reasons why the Germans have one of them is it's not quite corruption. But it certainly and the influence of the car industry in Germany on the German government that based in the variably based in Bavaria the right wing governments in Germany depended on the CD you see s you which is based in Bavaria as well. But the Germans have got used to it. The trouble is that you haven't gotten this wonderful European Union that some of us still admire you haven't got joy while thank you. You haven't got borders anymore. And so I drive in France. And and where there are strict limits. There's been brought down in the French people. Don't particularly like the five of those feelings have been brought down. But the people who know those speed limits are Germans driving the BMW on French motorways as if they're still at home, and that is very. Dangerous. I did want to close by asking you both briefly to name the most terrifying road you have ever been on. I was going to nominate either the highway from two to believe or the highway from Cairo to Alexandria at night. Never again will. I remember bombing around Poland in the late nineties and a five hundred jumping over Porto jumping into an out of potholes, which was quite something. And somehow that fear five hundred get up to about seventy miles an hour. Which is I think beyond anything the fear. It could manage the full the wool the the current war on I hired a car in Syria and drive around Syria. Lot nips, absolutely terrifying. Where people went to a roundabout and simply headed for the exit. They wanted by the. Any particular rules and would happily go down the wrong side of a motorway? And you would come across a wholesome cartoon the same thing on that happy note learns price enjoy the deco. Thank you both very much for joining us at Midori house. The show was produced by Gerston match. Larry research by Nando, Augusta per and Martha LeBron studio manager was Kenya. Scarlet music next nineteen hundred monocle design, I'm back with more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Dory. House returns at the same time tomorrow eighteen hundred London I'm Andrew mullet. Thank you very much for listening.
Tax Reform Hits Foreign Profits of Some U.S. Companies
"Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash W. S J that's indeed dot com slash W. S j. What's news? I'm Charlie Turner in New York for the Wall Street Journal, the two thousand seventeen tax overhaul that was supposed to help multinational companies has instead dented their profits will get more from the Wall Street Journal's Richard Rubin. I hear some headlines. British Prime Minister, Theresa may has reportedly told members of her conservative party that she would resign if her deal for Britain to leave. The European Union is endorsed by parliament May's Brexit agreement with the European Union late last year has been rejected twice by parliament. The prime minister wants to put it to a third vote this week, but has run up against the speaker of the house of Commons. John berko who said lawmakers couldn't vote on the exact same deal twice if May's deal would get past. She would resign ahead of the next phase of negotiations. UK's parliament was set to vote on a range of Brexit alternatives in so-called indicative votes, which maze government has been opposing for the latest on Brexit had to WS. Shea dot com. The Wall Street Journal says Boeing needed the redesign of its crucial seven thirty seven jetliner to go swiftly and smoothly. So it pursued a path that reduced regulatory scrutiny and accommodated its biggest customer by requiring as little training for pilots as possible. Many pilots now say Boeing's choices for the seven thirty seven. Max left them in the dark about a new feature whose malfunctioning has been implicated in one deadly crash, and is under scrutiny for a possible role in a second disasters that have claimed three hundred forty six lives pilots flying the 737 max, which entered service in two thousand seventeen received no training on a new stall prevention system and saw almost no mention of it in manuals, according to the pilots and industry officials most would get no visible cockpit warnings when a sensor used to trigger the system malfunctioned, and they had no access to simulators that could replicate the kinds of problems believed to have down lion. Air flight six ten last October the journal reports that eight. T and T's Warner media is offering buyouts to employee's at its Turner unit. This applies to workers or at least fifty five years old, and we'll have ten or more years of service by year end the buyouts at Turner were widely expected as AT and T started to fundamentally reshape Time Warner the entertainment empire it acquired for more than eighty billion dollars. After the last antitrust hurdle was cleared late last month. Still ahead. Why tax reform is denting prophets of some US companies instead of boosting them. Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates? He's an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash W. S J that's indeed dot com slash W s j. The tax overhaul that Republicans pushed an inactive in two thousand seventeen was designed among other things to change the international tax system, and thus help multinational companies that make much of their profits overseas. It hasn't quite worked out that way and more than a year later. These multinationals are saying that the new law could hurt their global competitiveness and discourage domestic investment. So what is the flaw in the tax law that has made many of these companies unhappy here to answer that is Richard Rubin. US tax policy reporter for the Wall Street Journal who joins us from Washington rich at the root of this problem seems to be a new minimum tax designed to prevent companies from shifting their profits too, low tax countries, isn't that right? Yeah. The idea behind what congress did in two thousand seventeen international Texas was this said, look if you're US company and you're making profits abroad, we're not going to impose US tax on top of. That companies have been complaining for years in the previous system that made them uncompetitive in foreign markets because they would compete against companies from other countries that didn't have that second layer tax on top of whatever they were paying in those markets. But US lawmakers also realized that you can't just say that because then companies would go stick their profits in places where there's almost no taxes on. It'd be hard for the US to trying clawback any of any money you'd see profits going even more abroad. So they impose minimum tax that said, okay. If you pay really low rates will top you up to ten and a half percent, you'll have to pay some US taxes on top of your foreign taxes. And then if you pay some substantial foreign taxes sort of a signal that you're operating in real far markets with real significant tax rates than we're not going to the US is not going to impose that minimum tax on you. But it's that latter group where we started to see a problem will the tax has the acronym of guilty GI. L TI global intangible low taxed income many multinationals figured they'd avoid paying this tax. Isn't that? Right. Yeah. Because was sort of this simplified example in the conference report that congress put out is it. Well, it's your tax rate is over thirteen point one five percent, then you are going to be fine. But that was a simplified example, and what it masks was notice expense allocation, and that basically says that wouldn't companies calculate their foreign tax credits. They have to essentially recalculate their foreign taxes for US purposes. And what that means they have to say, all right? Well, some of our far some domestic income interest research headquarters expenses is really in support of foreign prophets. And so we're going to have to allocate those expenses abroad in the is going to make your foreign income look smaller, make an limit your foreign tax credit and that so that limits than what companies can use on that far. Tax credit to offset this guilty tax. Now, how large is the guilty tax the tax. It really varies by company. Overall. It's going to raise one hundred and some billion over a decade, you know, for Procter and gamble which sort of the companies we talked to they think this is going to add one hundred million dollars to their tax Bill. It's gonna take their foreign tax rate from eighteen percent, roughly two twenty one percent. So it's you know, that's a large company with billions in revenue, but one hundred million dollars is still entre million dollars. The new tax system could incentivize companies to put jobs factories and headquarters outside the US is this because of rules that congress did not change in two thousand seventeen. Yeah. Those are those expensive location rules because if you what companies are saying is well instead of having to pretend that those US expenses are abroad for foreign tax credit calculations. We could just move them abroad. And then. It wouldn't be a problem at all. We could you know, just. Count them as far in expenses. And they they wouldn't hurt us nearly as much and so that's the incentive. We haven't seen company actually doing that gap. But that's the incentive that companies say exists under this new system. Rich, could you go over this again, what was the point of guilty? I thought the goal was to have these companies pay fewer taxes and not more the goal. Guilty was his backstop. It was to say that you can't just make it look like your foreign income is in really low tax places. And then you owe a lot less in taxes to the US. It was a recognition of what companies particularly in the technology and pharmaceutical industries have done which to take patents and trademarks and put them in low tax places and say that a lot of their non US income is earned in places like Bermuda, the Netherlands or. Ireland or the Cayman Islands, and so guilty was designed to basically stop that stop those kinds of companies from from from avoiding all US taxes an end foreign taxes. Well, so it was a backstop to that that system it's just about who guilty is affecting. That's that's causing consternation right now will is there a widespread recognition of this in the government. And are they open to making adjustments changes? Yeah. Very little on this the happening, congress Democrats actually see the opposite problem. They think the way guilty is structured actually encourages companies to go overseas because it makes overseas earnings really attractive, and so they're they want to take it make guilty more onerous. And so and Republicans Joan so we're sort of in a standstill in congress. The treasury department is well aware of these companies concerns has already softened the rules. A little bit for interest expenses. And is definitely considering further changes as it makes those rules. Final and tries to continue implementing the law. This is this is not a a secret to the tax professionals over the treasury department who've been working on this for quite a while Wall Street Journal US tax policy reporter, Richard Rubin. Joining us from Washington. Thanks, rich. Thank you. And that's what's news. I'm Charlie Turner in New York at the Wall Street Journal.
Sept. 19, 2019: Speaker John Bercow; Kids And Plant-Based Milk
"From NPR and W I'm Tanya Asli Broadcasting Today from member station K. J. Z. Z. In Tempe Arizona Jeremy Hobson it's here and now Iran's foreign administer had a warning today. Mohammad Javad Zarif told CNN that if the US or Saudi Arabia strikes Iran the consequence will be quote all out a newer. I'm making a statement that we don't want. We don't want to engage in a military confrontation but we won't believe it learn more at to defend those comments came after that attack last weekend on Saudi oil installations the US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo as said Iran is to blame Iran tonight joining us now is Jane Harman President and CEO of the Wilson Center. She was the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee during her time in Congress. Welcome back. I I thank you Jeremy. And where do you see this headed for the. US and Iran was given a sentence. I think it's tough talks fairness and much more modest actually I I think that's the right thing will end up doing is ratcheting up sanctions and we may ratchet up some asymmetric attacks cyber but I don't think we're heading for all out war. I don't think trump wants it and I would point out the irony that if we had stayed the Iran nuclear deal the twenty fifteen eighteen deal. I think we would be a much stronger position now to ask more from Iran Iran would have been willing to do it and we would have had a coalition on our side. Now we are fairly isolated and I think we have a weaker hand. Do you think that the US may try to get back into another nuclear deal with Iran. Ah Yes I don't know about back I mean I don't think trump would ever do admit that any deal he made had some resemblance to the Obama deal. I think car foreign policy is anything but Obama twenty four seven but I think if there is a deal to be made that fences Iran on certain nuclear activity for a longer period of time than the old deal that in brains in Iran's missile testing and activity which Watson Austin cover and that range in some of its its maligned behavior in the region. I think that's a better deal but again I think we would have achieved it more easily by staying in the old deals which let me point out to a majority of of members of Congress supported staying in the old deal whether or not they were advocates initially initially of the old deal. What do you think that Iran is taking from at least what I would call mixed messages from the United States. You've got Mike Pompeo. A saying that Iran is to blame for the attacks. President trump has not gone that far punishment found that inmates right. I don't know the intelligence case. I think pompeo on death row got to nine. Iran is responsible faster than perhaps the intelligence proved but I also think not being definitive. Genitive is giving us some wiggle room and coming up with the policy short of all out war which again I think trump doesn't wanna do I think is probably a really bad idea. Uh so leaving the wiggle room is useful right now. I think the the current claim at least in in public claim is these drones were launched from Iran not from Yemen. Even Yemenis claimed responsibility. I don't note that there's definitive proof yet. That was the case they would have flown over a lot of airspaces niane. We'll know when we know but I'm one who thinks you saw. The intelligence case really matters when we get it right. We have better policy won't get it wrong as we did. In Iraq we have worst policy. Also there is if Iran did do this. Why would they do this in the media. I think Iran is trying to get our attention. Sanctions are are biting and they're getting our attention so I deal I think North Korea does same thing North Korea. He does provocative tests and then we talked to them so I think they think. This may be the playbook with trump. It also points out to me by the way something we should factor in. Dan is how weak the Saudi defense and most people think by the way that they're fighting capacity they bought billions of dollars of the military assets from us is poor and then in Yemen the progress that was made to offer. We really call that progress in the civil war there the fighters who were impressive where you way e riders not not Saudi fighters. Finally I want to ask you about another powerful full player in the Middle East Israel. There was an election this week sort of not election right exactly and delivered a big setback to the longtime Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Do you think he's finished prime minister. I also don't know yet for big too but I certainly think the hills that he's climbing got steeper and if he has the same number of seats or maybe one down from a blue and white party the party and they get a chance to form the coalition. I think they have a decent shot for me. Your coalition that is not just with far right parties and frankly I don't want to say I think maybe Netanyahu in Yahoo has offered some bold leadership over the years but I also think he has made it much harder to achieve two state solution which I am strongly four and I think that there is an indictment over his head which may come in two weeks. I think that Israelis me we have decided to move on and moving on could could deliver something. I'm strongly for. She has a better chance for Israel to be a pluralist democracy democracy in a very small piece of real estate which also offers possibility of a separate Palestinian state with secure borders and responsible leadership understand I just said secure borders and responsible leadership not be cheerful but if if the parties on the ground there are can get to that I think that would be frankly more in Israel's interest in German and offices annexing norrland and Jane Harman Director President and CEO of the Wilson Center. Thanks as always for joining us. Thank you Jeremy Have Day. Let's turn now to some research about toddlers. Cutler's endearing guidelines released this week by a panel of health organizations city kids under the age of five not drink plant based milk in replacement into dairy milk that includes bridges derived from rice almonds or coconut. Some soy milk can be an exception. NPR Senior Science Editor Maria Doria joins US Maria Eitan recycle so we kids under five get a lot of their daily nutrition beverages. There's so many choices cases now more than ever before. Why is this panel cautioning against most plants gay stocks. It's yeah the whole plant based milk sectors growing growing in popularity and they have everything from two almonds coconuts as he said but the panel says most of these products don't have the same nutritional profile as dairy milk for instance they may like the same levels of protein vitamin D or calcium phosphorus and these are nutrients that are really vital to proper growth and development for kids who are five years old and under some of these plant based milks may actually be fortified but so that their nutritional profile is made to match dairy milk but the pin also says there's actually not enough evidence to know if these nutrients are by available in the same way and what that means is if they're readily absorbed by the body and same way that they they would be from dairy milk. I WanNa get to some alternatives but I I want to know what organizations makeup this panel well what one of the organizations this was an she next panel drawn from leading health organizations including the American Academy of Pediatrics the American Heart Association the American Academy of Pediatric Dentists and Academy of Nutrition and dietetic their convened by a nutrition research group called healthy eating research with funding by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and I should know that same foundation provides funding for NPR okay. What are some of the best alternatives. If you don't want your child to drink cow's milk or if they can't really well so if they can't is a big issue because of obviously there's dairy allergies there's allergies and there's also lactose intolerant and there are kids who grow up in Vegan households one of the things that the panel said is that milk can be used as an exclusive replacement for for dairy milk. the evidence for its nutritional profile was stronger also if you were kid can't drink dairy for medical reasons or Vegan or reasons being being Vegan you can have plant based milks but then really talk to European attrition or a Dietitian nutritionist to figure out what else your kids should be eating in their deitz. Make sure they're getting those key nutrients from other sources even with soy milk and some of the other milks they may have higher sugar content or there's just a plethora plethora of choices out there and you go to the island. You see you have to really look to find the unsweetened versions of those right. I mean that's another big concern. Why this group was issuing cautions against plant based milk is that a lot of them are Sweden adding sugars to the Diet and there's a ton of research showing that these earlier's when when kids pallets forms and they grow more used to sweeten drinks they don't need sugar in the Diet. Not none of us really need added sugar in our diet so yeah what we should always be watching labels right. The panel also says that we should really limit fruit juice because of the high sugar content as well right and this is a big thing of mine because I think juice still has a halo but it is high in sugar and calories. However juice can help meet some of those daily fruit intake for for kids and especially where affordability issue because whole fruit can be more expensive expensive than juice? They do say you can you can have it if you're limiting it to forty ounces a day. NPR Senior Science Editor Maria Godot thank you so much we could talk about this forever wherever what happens when Ronald McDonald walks into a poor immigrant neighborhood in the south of France and sets off a supersized revolution the story of how company slogan to sell shakes and Burgers became a rallying cry for Workers France. That's NPR's ars translation. You could call him the man at the center of Brexit he sits right in the middle of the two sides in the House of Commons and often has to calm everyone down speaker of the House have comments John Berko has been in that role since two thousand nine but now he could be a crucial check on the power of the Prime Minister Boris Johnson who wants to take the UK out out of the European Union deal or no deal on October thirty first parliament voted against a no deal brexit but right now parliament is suspended by the order of Johnson a move Berko called a constitutional outrage. John Berko joins me now here in the studio. Welcome Jermaine good off into you thank you so. I want to ask you first of all about the news of the day you said in a lecture the other day that the only form of Brexit that we have whenever that might be will be Brexit at the House of Commons has explicitly explicitly endorsed and that you'll do what you have to do to keep the prime minister from ignoring parliament and taking the UK out of the EU without a deal. What does that mean it. It simply means that the three possibilities as the brexit debate continues and moves towards perhaps an initial conclusion as far as withdrawal is concerned turned. I there can be a withdrawal agreement approved by parliament's and therefore an exit with a deal secondly there could be a withdrawal from the European Union without a deal if if no deal is approved by the House of Commons if the House of Commons explicitly endorses the idea of a new deal brex which they've in other whistling by default it happens by explicit endorsement thirdly the could be a scenario in which parliament says. We haven't approved a deal. We didn't want to leave without a deal so he wants an extension of article fifty to find a route to a potential mechanism to saw the issue once and for all so there were those three possibilities the simple point that I was making was that we cannot have a situation in which we leave the European Union by default. The House of Commons will want to be in the driving seat stating explicitly and emphatically an unmistakably what it wants my only point there's concern about that right now that that maybe the prime minister would just ignore the law that was just passed in the House of Commons and signed by the queen that says that he cannot leave without a deal on the thirty first of October well. I think everybody accepts that. A law is binding and everyone has to adhere to the law period be you you ever stay high. The law is above you. Tell me about the role of the speaker. because people are looking to you in a way to to make make sure that the law is abided by in this case the principal function of the Speaker of the House of Commons is to chat in the chamber to chair Providence's questions to CIA question time sessions to Chad the delivery of ministerial statements to Chad debates on US miscellany of different topics in that capacity. The speaker is not a player in the match but it's referee or umpire. That's the function of the speaker not not try to secure one outcome or anothe- but to facilitate the House of Commons in order that it can arrive the decision which by a clear majority it wishes to reach so what do you say to people who think that you have gotten too political in the role of speaker well. I simply reject AH judge. I don't think I've been to political tool. I have not argued for a particular point of view on the brexit issue. In the Chamber of the House also comes at different times there have been important minorities to accommodate in the debate so the bricks of tears had their chance when they were in a minority now the dissenting view of the soft brexit details or the would-be remain irs has also to be heard said the point that I'm making to you is that the speaker has to try to ensure that all of the different voices are heard is not for the speaker to implement the government's. Government's position is not for the speaker to implement the opposition's position. It's not for the speaker to implement any particular view. The speaker's Rica's job is to try to ensure that the different points of view heard. I think the truth of the battery if I may put it this way very fair is that sometimes when people will have their own view heard when they desperately need it behead that pleased when somebody else's view which is in very the hot competition with their own is given an airing. They don't win. They would prefer it not to be there. Quick to criticize the speaker's job is not to court what popularity but to try to facilitate colleagues and to say the word that you've become famous for which is I'm going to let you do it or a must come to order then. Did all the previous speakers. Do it like that or if you put your own stamp on everybody puts his or her own standpoint my predecessor. Michael Martin was a Scottish Labour member of parliament and he had a distinctive Scottish accent. He said the word in his is way. Betty boothroyd the first and so far the only female speaker had her own iteration of the word. Everybody does it differently. They say that it is preferable to anybody else's but simply mine as you have been speaker for so long and throughout the whole brexit process if we think of Brexit as this as like a ship in a storm right now where are we. Is this the the most dramatic part so far that you've been there. Or how does this feel compared to right after the referendum happened a few years ago well it feels different and yes. This is the most traumatic point that we have reached to date but in and that's I part of my sentence. The words to date are of the essence. Nobody knows what is going to come next and I think what I would say to you. Is that anybody who predicts success with certainty or even. Alacrity the eventual resolution of Brexit and when that will be is either through an extraordinarily clever person or frankly a reckless fool. Are you allowed to have a public personal opinion about what should happen open with brexit not in terms of the outcome odeon terms of the process. I can have a view about the process and in my view it is absolutely critical in the the efficient effective and responsible functioning of parliamentary democracy. The House of Commons takes ownership ship of the issue and has a say well. One of the fears that people and we've we've covered breaks a lot on this program one of the fears. I think that people who don't want Britain to leave the EU have is that Britain is going to lose its place kind of at the table of all the major decisions that happened in the world we think of of the UK as one of the leaders right now and that if it's not part of the EU anymore that's GonNa lose some of that clout notwithstanding the fact that you can't tell me what you think should happen do you do you think that the UK has lost any of its global stature through all of this drama over the last last few years well that she is a sophisticated and charming way of seeking to inveigle me in pressing view automatic which by the it was. I will say to you. Jeremy is look. I have heard that view. We all really approaching. Only the end of the beginning with talking talking head is important for your listeners to be conscious of this about a potential withdraw rel agreement to be submitted to the House for its possible approval that is ready stage. One could go even use them to that. The were withdrawal agreement approved in that remains to be seen there is a whole discussion to be had about trade relations about security cooperation abouts cultural relations between the United Kingdom and the European Union and the approach kingdom adopts to the rest of the world so I think it is very important that as soon as possible in the interests of a wider set of issues a whole gamut of topics being addressed by government and parliament is bandwidth for education nation for transport in the fight against crime and doing what we can to most raw social caste system and so on and so forth but the idea that it is a question Russian in the next few weeks of simply sorting Brexit the issue of our future relationship with Europe and with the rest of the world is a consequence of this subject having been addressed will be a staple feature of UK political discourse for a long time to come. Let me just finally ask you. You'RE GONNA leave the speakership at the end of this parliament. What are you gonNA miss the most about it. The cotton thrust of debate listening to my colleagues seeks disagreeing sometimes fiercely occasionally angrily putting their points with real passion. I respect that and over of course I understand. A lot of people are very frustrated. I hugely admire my colleagues. I believe the House of Commons is a wonderful awful place. It is overwhelmingly filled by people who are motivated by the notion of the national interest by that perception of the public could and by the duty notice delegates but as representatives to do what they judge to be right for our country if you do for a living something that causes you to jump out of bed in the morning looking forward to the day ahead as I've done for the last twenty two years as a member of politics in the last ten speaker. Frankly you up lest. I have no plans to die tomorrow but if I were to die tomorrow I die happy feeding. I've been incredibly lucky and that's what causes me to say to all of my colleagues those who've supported me and those who have not thank you that is John Berko the speaker of the British House of Commons. Thank you so much for joining US Jeremy. Thank you and you can see a photo of the speaker in our offices. This is at your house. Southeastern Texas is underwater that sound of a flooding highway near Cleveland Texas about fifty miles outside side of Houston. The remnants of Tropical Depression Imelda is dumping heavy rain throughout southeastern Texas and southwest Louisiana causing major flooding sitting there since Tuesday. There's so much water in Texas some local officials there say this flooding is worse than what they've experienced during Hurricane Harvey for more on this. Let's bring in Gil delattre. She's a transportation reporter for Houston Public Media High Gal Hi Tania. I know that there's so much going on there right now. We know that the Houston area has about four to five leads a year but give us a sense of how this storm compares and what you're seeing mm-hmm. Well you know it really depends on how much rainfall you get in your particular area and also what waterways you're near if you're going to flood or not if you're going to have watering ordering your home or if you're going to have water on the roadway that impacts your ability to get around basically what we're seeing right now to kind of give you a picture of what's happening here in downtown Houston. I in a lot of people came to work today. A lot of schools are still in session so people are kind of you know still trying to go about their business but a lot of the action right now is to the north and the East in Houston. We're seeing a lot of flooding going on in areas about fifty miles east of Houston and the community of winning smaller community. They're also they've had problems since overnight in the Beaumont area. That's a little bit larger city about eighty miles to the east of Houston here in the city proper. Were getting reports right now. Some fairly high water in some of the northeastern suburbs reports of were going into homes. Also people getting stranded in their neighborhoods. The big airport Bush Bush Intercontinental. They've come to a total ground. Stop and there was also a lot of flooding around the airport as well. We just saw photos that someone put out on social media of one of the Metro Transit Transit buses totally flooded so it's not only the plane's getting in and out but people actually physically getting to the airport yeah and we saw that Houston Bush airport is back open but flights are still delayed in the roads surrounding the airport as you mentioned are flooded. You also mentioned Beaumont so the Beaumont Police Department tweeted that the nine one went operation center is experiencing heavy calls more than two hundred and fifty high water rescues and nearly three hundred evacuation requests Hauer. Those water rescues going whether getting as many as they can. You've got the Fire Department Police Department other entities since we're on the coast. All of these communities have emergency. Does he plans for weather events like this. It can kind of come up by surprise but then there gets to a point where you need some help from outside so what we see in a lot of these flooding events civilians going out in their boats to rescues. We have the organization you've probably heard about called the Cajun Navy from Louisiana Group of volunteers who goes they go to different places to rescue so there comes a point where civilians with boats or pressed into service to handle a lot things revenues there's so much going on there we are also hearing reports of Tornados happening and then there's the impacts to hospitals and nursing homes and I guess that's where all those civilians come into play assisting folks as well as officials assisting folks. You stay safe out there. Thank you so much for this update. That's Gail delattre. She's transportation reporter for Houston public media. Thank you for joining us. Thank you if you look up. Louis Czuczka name on the Department of Agriculture website. You won't find his biography. That's because has after more than two decades. Working is one of the departments top scientists looking at how climate change affects plants. CZUCZKA quit saying the trump administration was trying to silence his research search. Lewis Cisco is now associate professor at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University and joins US professor. Welcome glad to be here. Thank you well. Let's start with with the research. What was it that the trump administration you say didn't want to get out. We were looking at how rising carbon dioxide levels have have a impact with respect to nutrition and we wanted to focus on rice because rice is one of the primary staples globally prior to submitting the paper approve of course we have to get permission from higher ups at the National Program Level and the paper was accepted as part of the overall process wants the paper had been peer reviewed and was getting ready to publish the editor approached us and said look you know we think this is going to get a lot of press. Would you mind doing a press release. I said no no problem but after the press release was put in we were told that no the conclusions of the paper were not supported by by the data. If you had a problem with the paper you would have done it initially not something you do after the papers then accepted so so indicated to me that they were not going to support the scientific findings even more than that they went out of their way to touch base with other groups that were involved in this and also urged them not to do a press release and to me that was sort of crossing ethical line in terms of what shoot what you can do and I wanna get to the politics of this in a minute but first of all what were the conclusions the conclusions were that as co two has been rising facing if you look at the integrative nutritional content of rice what we found was that the protein levels are going down that key elements such as iron zinc that are important portent for human health are also declining and that at least for some of the the data we didn't have a chance to do this for all the different sites but for the ones we did what we found was that there was a drop in B. Vitamin content and races an important source of violence for for many people in the world and we focused on when those countries in the world that were more than fifty percent of your calories come from rice alone countries like Bangladesh or Laos House or others at least fifty percent of your diet comes from only from rice so those the ones that we felt less susceptible to the CEO to induce change inch now. These were data that were attained in the field. They were data for C o two concentrations that we are almost certain will happen before the end of the current century so the fact that it's going to have an impact on the health or potential health of over six hundred million we thought was something that was obviously important. Why does the climate climate and the carbon in the atmosphere have an effect on the nutrients in rice and other plants. What we think is happening. Is that plants are very adaptable to their environment. They can't exactly pull up the roots and run away so what they do is they change chemically and what's happening right. Now is an unprecedented increase in carbon in the air is not keeping pace with other elements such as nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium that come from the soil so what we're seeing in a number of different instances is that those compounds that require a lot of carbon may be benefited by the change in carbon but those that require like more nitrogen or phosphorus. I in fact maybe going down so when we looked at the nutritional profile of rice what we found was that vitamin E. to cover all was actually going up now. That's a compound that it's only carbon so it may benefit by the rising co two whereas something like vitamin B Nine B twelve which have a lot of nitrogen. We're actually going down so what this implies is not just for rice but for all plants at the bottom of the food chain is that as co two changes they may be adapting in that in a way that's going to affect their basic chemistry and that of course has implications for not only human health but for all animals animals who rely on plants as their primary source of food and are all of those adaptations as far as you know going for the worse for human health not necessarily necessarily so if we see for example that vitamin. E. is going up then that may have a benefit but one of the things that's most worrisome about what we're observing is the change in protein and what we find is that protein concentrations are going down across the board. Now you can argue and some have that this change in protein is result of of breeding for higher and higher yields and crops but we also went to the Smithsonian Natural History Museum and you look at some of the samples overtaken one hundred fifty years ago. Oh prior to the start of the industrial age and we were looking at not people food but we were looking at solid egg or Goldenrod and Goldenrod goldenrod pollen is a major source of nutrition for bees for pollinators and what we found there was that in addition to what we had been observing for rice and other other props is a similar decline in protein for the pollen and that has implications for be health pollinator health as well so we can't say it's universally awful saying is that plants which are the basis of all life are changing and how they're changing is going to have implications not only for human health but also for the environment as a whole so to the politics this the US Department of Agriculture has denied having suppressed any climate-change-related age-related reports or information in response to your resignation. The department said that preventing the promotion of your study was not political but was instead based on scientific disagreement agreement. How do you respond to that. If there was issue of scientific disagreement then prior to my submitting the paper they should have come demand demand said Oh. We don't think the science here is feasible. We don't think the science is appropriate. They didn't do that. They did it. After it's gone through peer review you don't do that after the paper's getting ready to be published the people that disagreed with it. The Best of my knowledge are not people that have any background and looking at climate change danger carbon dioxide effects on nutrition. The person who contact me told me about it was actually a soil scientist not someone who had published in this area at all so this doesn't sound like they're disagreeing with the science it sounds to me that they're disagreeing with the outcome of the study and the fact that the study did not fall into what their political purview was so it was. It was very unusual this never I've been with as you mentioned in your intro. I've been with USDA for over twenty years. This never happened like this before I of course responded by saying. Hey let's meet. Let's talk about this and and there was no follow up meeting. There was no effort to come back and say specifically how what happened or why it suddenly at this point in the process was not acceptable. It made no sense now. You're not the only government employees to recently leave over the issue of climate change Do you think you're going to have a bigger impact on this issue outside the government then you could inside the sad. The sad part is that I think I will but the the sad part of that is that they're very good people that are still at USDA good scientists good technicians who can make a difference but if you're not allowed to work on this if you're if you're steered away from doing this kind of research then what impact are you going to have and yet at the same time you have in in real terms you have farmers that are dealing with unprecedented rainfall fall you have farmers that are dealing with unprecedented pests threats to their production and you have on the other hand folks of Agriculture Research Service. They're good people. That can do a lot in this in this regard but you're not gonNA use them because it's politically inconvenient to begin to address a a problem that the administration believes is not a problem. This is it just isn't right. This is what what USDA and other scientists at the federal level are therefore is help address problems of national importance to ignore those problems to say. Oh no that's political science. That's not evidence based. I don't have the words to to express why that's so wrong. Why that hurts so many people not just the scientists but ourselves as a country in terms of our ability to be a sustainable producer of major food crops for the world is a whole Yes I can from a a personal level. I'm very very grateful for Columbia to take me on but from a larger perspective I think it's going to hurt the research that it needs to be done overall to begin to address these challenges to food security that Lewis Czuczka who is now an associate professor at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University. He quit his job as scientist at the Department of Agriculture Lewis. Thanks for joining us. Thank you very much and you can hear more of our stories from covering climate now at here now. Dodd in twenty nine states have the death penalty and more than twenty six hundred people are on death row until recently that included Tennessee inmate Abdu Ali opt Rochman but in August more than three decades after he was sentenced a judge. Is there reversed Abdurrachman scheduled execution for first degree murder. He was given a sentence of life imprisonment citing questions about the fairness of his trial. The the ruling ended a drawn out legal process that took a toll on the defended and the victims and it's become a common scenario and capital cases Samantha Max of member station W. P. L. in reports from Nashville when Lee Abdurrachman and an accomplished stormed into Xuan Norman's house in February of Nineteen Eighty he six Norman Hayden a bedroom she and her sister Katrina who are nine and eat at the time could hear everything as their mother and her boyfriend were attacked. We we were so scared when when I ran back in the room and told my sister that it was men in the living room with guns the Mamas Head in Patrick said and we were shaking so hard and our beds are beds were knocking up against the wall after the men left the girls found their mother Norma Jean Norman on the floor bleeding from stab wounds. She survived but her boyfriend did not the normans were relieved when Abdurrachman was given a death sentence in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven but then came the appeals the hearings the endless letters from the prosecutor's. Katrina says she dreaded checking her male talk about it. I don't WanNa hear you're bad if something comes on the news I'm GonNa cut it off. I just want to deal with the but last month. The sisters finally got closure when obda Rochman waived his right to all future sure appeals. He'll still spend the rest of his life behind bars but won't face execution. I'm just glad that it's family over. We've I've had to do with this for a long time. It took thirty two years for DIRAC MONTH'S CASE to wind its way through the courts and evidence suggests death row inmates are waiting in prison longer longer than ever before the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Most recent report on capital punishment found that inmates executed in 2017 spent an average of twenty twenty years and three months on death row in nineteen eighty-seven the average was just over seven years Austin. Sarah is a law professor at Amherst College College who studies the Death Penalty. He says capital cases take longer to resolve than they used to because of growing concerns about the execution of innocent people before you're going to carry out a death penalty. We want to be as close to certain as we can be that the death sentence is warranted and that the death sentence sentence was arrived at we're expecting the full legal rights of the person whose life is now in jeopardy the Death Penalty Information Mission Center reports. The number of executions has decreased substantially in the past two decades from ninety eight thousand nine hundred ninety nine to twenty five last year in most those cases. Sarah says death sentences are ultimately overturned in the lengthy appeals process. He says it's comment on cover evidence of prosecutorial misconduct this conduct a trial there is a lot of intense focus on the case both in the media and obviously from the point of view of the surviving living relatives and that pressure can lead prosecutors to cut corners. Sarah's defendants also also regularly argue in their appeals that they didn't have proper legal counsel at trial especially if they couldn't afford a private attorney both were true in Iraq. Month's is case. His original defense lawyer admitted he didn't prepare in any way for the trial. Abdurrachman also claimed that the trial prosecutor withheld important evidence and rejected multiple potential black jurors now. That's why Nashville District Attorney Glenn funk decided to offer Abdurrachman a new deal at an August hearing he he said there was enough doubt surrounding the death sentence in this case to throw it out. Russell bias has no place in justice further and most in pursuit of justice is incompatible with desertion abdurrachman case could signal a path forward for Tennessee's three other other inmates scheduled for execution in the coming months similar agreements could also offer relief for Victims Stacey Rector of Tennesseans for alternatives to the death penalty not says victims suffer when capital cases languish in court traumatize it goes on for so long and what I often hear people say is we just wants informality but after hearing rector said she doesn't think the solution should be to expedite death penalty cases there are too many issues that do not get addressed and that take years getting through the courts to finally get hurt and addressed and if you speed the process up people people like a boo. Ali Get executed a states like Tennessee grapple with the future of capital punishment. The federal government is pushing full steam ahead in July Attorney General William Bar announced that the Justice Department would resume executions after a lapse of nearly two decades he said the Justice Department owed it to victims the Norman sisters however say they understand why Abu Ali after Rochman sentence was overturned they haven't forgiven after Mon and they were looking forward forward to his execution in April but they think the new deal will finally deliver some justice to everyone involved for here and now I'm Samantha Max in National Nashville the here and now is a production of NPR and WB you are in association with the BBC World Service. I'm tiny Moseley. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This is your Yeah uh-huh.
When MPs erupt into incivility, the Speaker is to blame
"Just before we start listening to this podcast reminded that we have a special subscription her he can at twelve issues of the spectator for twelve pounds as well as the twenty pound Amazon voucher the go-to. You spectator dot com forward slash voucher. If you'd like to get this offer hello and welcome to coffee shots spectators what is daily in these days often. Mullan Dedi politics pocus. I'm Katie Polston joined by Fraser Nelson and James Recife so Boris Johnson finds herself back in the comments unable unable to find a retailer. We've just had the confidence motion to have a short free day recess said the tourists can go to Manchester has been vetoed by the rebel alliance of MP's conference will likely still ahead. They're saying it will just might have few politicians there. Perhaps a people's conference now phrase it looking at the Commons woman's we've had this is the second day since it's tanned last night. We had very angry. Scenes is very bad tempered and it looks as though this is just going to keep going we have seen John. Try and calm in his own way. Perhaps is debatable but talking about the need for all employees but particularly the prime minister interesting to look that language and that's here clipped. I I think there is a widespread sense across the house us and beyond the yesterday the House did itself may credit ah the walls and atmosphere in the chamber worse than any. I've known in my twenty two years in the House on both sides passions were inflamed angry words what uttered the culture was toxic. Faith jumper has a point. He does and I wish she. We listen into himself a bit more last night. He kept the prime minister on his feet for hours. It was basically a punishment beating being administered to Boris this Johnson by John Berko now. What would it be learn yesterday. Nothing I mean the idea. Let's just keep borders. Tethered goes dispatch box and all of his enemies. Sri Three cats him for hours on end and let's see if he might lose his nerve little bit. Let's see if you might make a verbal slip and he did. He made a rather clumsy analogy about saying the buoy of best honoring Cox's memory and the way of bringing the country back together is to give breaks done now. I know the points that he meant to say that it makes sense Joe Cox adding it's too. It makes less sense but this was the game. This was the game this was. Let's just see we can keep them on here for her hours and hours on end and let's see if you can terminate him because parliament's can't do anything more now than torment the government it can't pass any em legislation other than that intended to harass the government can come to an agreement on Brexit nor can it come to an agreement on no brexit. This is a parliament whose indecision is final and listening to the debate last night. It just reminded me of the reason I didn't use twitter anymore anymore. You see people who are quite clever and you respect saying and doing crazy things because they think the Dutch auction for outrage so I think John Burke who he is the one who set up who created the conditions for last night's pylon. He probably regrets it work up this morning thinking well. That wasn't exactly exactly edifying because let's face it. It was pretty difficult to look at any of the scenes in parliament yesterday in think great. I'm really pleased. Parliament is back. It's beginning to look like a shambles enough to say the government's narrative of this being parliament of democracy dodgers is beginning to gain traction so Berko might be backtracking but what are we to do it by the first time ever denying the tourism recess during Tory Conference James if we look at what happened last night so the crux appear to be when pull the Sheriff Osborne Johnson to tone down his language he stopped using words like surrender what they used to describe the anti not legistlation the reverence passed and in that she invoked the memory of Jaycox the Labor. MP He was murdered and set the is not safe safe. MP's as it is and it was the responsibility of figures such as Boris Johnson the prime minister's no add that environment when the government uses attempts surrender. We've heard today that Berlusconi has no plans to cease using it. Do you think they are trying to whip up sentiment against these. MP's who was made that they just is trying to make the point that they think this legislation ultimately does see power to Brussels. I've been trying to do is they are trying to suggest that these. MP's so or handing power to the EU now I mean there are two things. Gordon's was overly flipping say Humbug as his response. We'll sheriff but I think if you will get into a world where we save it. Surrender actress surrender bill is unacceptable political language then I think a whole lot of stuff in the House of Commons is going to have to people who have to stop accusing borstal staging a coup of you're going to have to stop accusing him of being a dictator and I mean this is part of the problem. Now which is it all seems like what about well you salted at us at this USA dot and I think what the person you should reflect the most this morning is John Barker because undoubtedly out to the one of the reasons why everything is getting so out of hand is the Speaker of the House of Commons is no longer scenes in neutral officer. I was talking to a very mom mandatory. MP This morning and he said he when he heard but what Burke said he for Half Evenings Burqa was right that last night and I'm sitting in the Chamber for the Boris Johnson Jeremy Corbyn changes true. This is the angriest I've ever seen the Commons chamber and it's not healthy but John Burger has played a massive role because close normally the speaker would be able to calm things down but because the speaker has chosen to become part is an actor that doesn't work. It's like in a football match when everyone's flying. Amos todd showing so we're getting out of hand if the referees wearing the kit of one team he can't turn around to the other team and say please calm down now not from the other thing. I'm struck by today is that both sides are so full of righteous anger both sides think they are passionately convinced. They're on the right and this is just going to get worse and worse and worse. I I can't see any way to break this cycle of and the general election in the new parliament. That hopefully would have a majority one way or the of aw you'll be able to be done. One Cabinet member described it to me last night as trench warfare. I mean that's what the Tories feel and and they're actually getting quite Duggan in here. Now this of course is the trap for them if the other side is using hysterical language if they're seeing outrageous things you do not respond in kind angie needs to contrast your composure and your generosity with their shrieking and shrillness now it is difficult act to pull off because as as with twitter the great temptation is that you row in there you would try to attack fire with fire and if the Tories end up being sucked in ambitiously behaving like mirror images inches of their two mentors then I'm afraid to save neither of those two signs are gonNA emerge very well. The only way that this can have a positive effect for Boris Chris Johnson is if the government manages to look composed insensible in the face of provocation. This is a parliament whose only function now is to be sort of forum for hysteria. I kind of a backdrop for him. Videos that you can let you put on on social social. Media isn't anything more constructive can do apart from stage moments of drama now. If that's going to happen theresa better be sure. They're behaving well in that drama and looking at parliament today. I do wonder if they're going to succumb because let's face it be telegraphs pollster comrades. Labor mature reason level pegging now that is the case. They've got nothing to believe. They're going to 'em emerge well as a general election which they seem to be so desperate for if you look at what the opposition. MP's the phrases that they use you often hear things like coup dictatorship. The Lib Dem's what bollocks to Brex now really on the tour aside from Bros Johnson. We are going to keep appearing. Was I surrender this. Tom's portrayal but phrase did you think overall where we appear to be heading even if MP stopped to watch their language slightly is two very divisive. Election campaign is since to me from the language coming from all sides of the chamber when it comes to you how the parties are going to pitch themselves is going to be that type of rhetoric continued potentially. Oh yes very much so this will be a hugely divisive election campaign that will be a fusion of the old referendum campaign plus the the party lines where each side were regards the other as b o portrayed the other is basically being much maligned as well as confused. We saw this. Scottish referendum is inject poison into the political bloodstream. It takes a very long time to wash out and the paradox here. Is that the actor Maneuver Briggs is worse than it was midday after the result after the results people seem to have absorbed acceptance about that be other side was annoyed. They lost both okay fair enough. We lost then somehow we ended up going through the stages of grief in reverse -SEGO from acceptance all the way back through to anger and that's what we're what we're seeing right now and again the Tories can only win this cycle if the void the anger and as you say some of their language is like James I think Ren Deville is fine and consistent with the general election. That's going to say in the campaign. We want to fight Jeremy. Corbyn Corbin wants to surrender. We're seeing election. Language used right now but earlier on when we had Valerie vase the shadow leader of the house saying that's returning general should apologize feezing were Turkeys Recchi's. He said yesterday that MP's were Turkeys who wouldn't vote for Christmas couldn't avoid it. The knee do end up with a situation where voters looters might think plaguing all of your houses and the he had see what we can expect for the next few days as I mentioned in the introduction that there will be no conservative competence reese ask ass but we do so expect to have a conserved conference so James. How exactly other Tories going to hold what's supposed to be a conference with Sunday to Wednesday in Manchester. When parliament is sitting and be the all the other employees to be there and it and expect them to vote so one cabinet and so were saying to me they essentially energy minister is not that far away and they they should they will say take a couple of hours? Dinners may count like miles away the the north is two hours well. I've been the division lost eight minutes and so if you get ambushed it's a long time share. Ah Commute longer than thought so the biggest problem I see is I think the speech is meant. The same time as PM cues and Vizo opposition sometimes makes positive there is no way won't Boris Johnson Abba dispatch box for those that I was gonna say but it never is often obvious days our ah then putting him under pressure on holding into account and there's no way they're not gonNa want out so how what they do abortion speech is difficult for the Tories but but I think the conference will have to go ahead because Ada parties need the money and be of inevitable so be labor and other dams got the traditional boost publicity and attention from that conferences. The brew grew causes traditionally run more than treated as a big story so they will do the same. I think I mean the Tories will try and have have quite positive language. I think one of the things that they view about better. Opportunities now is because they now the only policy that the conceivably get brexit done quickly lived promising eighteen describe it. They were GONNA have enough referendum. Bagan want to suggest that the party you want to get this done and then move onto creating future and talking about things but the public who wants to talk about more we all basically now in pre-campaign period. It's going to feel more like a campaign rally in a traditional party conference and and also the prime minister can give his speech. I mean really these not going to be prevented from doing that. And then you've got various fringe events teachers hosting a whole bunch of them giving away free gin and tonic connick by the way if anybody listening all the booze will be there they might not even need to worry. We will be doing live coffee house shots because we had lines some exciting guests up the the most exciting guest list. Sat Cardini in this room conference and I'll just give the details details now for listeners you all still planning to Conservative Party. Conference is cheese days insecure Zane. I will give the exact room occasion on the next podcast and it's between alerted got into dating me a Gut Free Gin and tonics out the weirdly. Apparently we can't afford to prejean terrific for the Coffee House shots because 'cause the room's too big. It's only on the future of the real industry CETERA. Do you get to bring your own bottle anyway. Thank you phrase that thank you James and and do join us again tomorrow you too.