20 Episode results for "John Anderson"

Conversations with John Anderson: 2 years old

John Anderson: Conversations

49:30 min | 1 year ago

Conversations with John Anderson: 2 years old

"It has often been remarked on in this series of conversations with John Anderson. Did we are living through a time of great change and tumult as the world faces up to what is likely to be the most devastating global crisis in a generation? That observation is more true than ever like with so much. We usually take for granted? Our broadcast schedule has had to adjust to account for the new conditions. Were living through. In the meantime we have put together. This highlight show summarizing the series. So far it is now over two years since the former deputy prime minister of Australia launched his video podcast series conversations with John Anderson in that time our videos have been viewed millions of times and we have gained consistently growing subscriber numbers via YouTube podcast and the John Anderson Dot net dot. Edu website if you haven't already please subscribe. It costs nothing. The conversations project is a response to the poor quality of public debate and the lack of viewpoint diversity and much of the mainstream media identity politics and political correctness of stifled debate. Many views are not given a fair hearing. Careful reason and consideration of evidence is lacking. This is not good enough. And so through. Facebook twitter his website and especially through this series of conversations on Youtube. John is seeking to engage with prominent thought leaders from Australia. And around the world even some who've been marginalized by the broader media for failing to toe the line for the launch of conversations in March two thousand eighteen. John was fortunate to sit down with international media phenomenon. An academic. Dr Jordan Peterson in Sydney. This first episode in the series is now being viewed well over one million times. They say I was in a very dark place. I was addicted. I was I was drinking too much I had fragmented relationship with my fiance and I wasn't getting married Things weren't going very well with my family. My relationship with my father was damaged. I didn't have any aim. I was wasting my time some variant of some combination of those and they said well. I've been watching your lectures. I've decided to establish a purpose. I'm trying to tell the truth and things are way better and I've and so. Let's say I've done maybe eight or nine. Large-scale public talks in the last two months. So That's probably twenty thousand people and about half of them third to half of the mistake afterwards to talk to me. So that's about seven thousand people who've said that to me and then people stopped me on the street all the time and tell me exactly that story which is just wonderful like you can't imagine how good it is to be able to go to places you've never been and have people start feeling the streets spontaneously and say look. My life is way better than it was. It's like it's so good and so and I've got like thirty five thousand letters from people's last August. It's more than that. I can't keep track of them and it's exactly the same thing like three quarter a quarter them say. Well you've given me the words to say what I already knew was true and thank you for that. I can see that in the audience. It's so interesting because I can lay out a story. People go like this and they're doing that all the time it's like the lights are going on and that's a really while there's almost nothing better than that to watch lights. Go on when you're talking to people it's like that's just absolutely fantastic but to get this response from people my father. I have my father's about eighty eighty eighty three. That's eighty one. He's eighty one and I put him in charge of going through my viewer email. Which is an overwhelming job. But no we've had discussions about this constantly. He's overwhelmed by the fact that so many people are writing and saying the same things like long. I have a purpose that my life actually matters. I finally realized that and I'm putting it into practice. I'm burying up under the heaviest load. I can imagine and it's really helping. It's like God and that's tens of thousands of responses. Now so it's it's you couldn't hope for anything better than that there's zero harmon it right. It's just people putting their lives together they're not mucking about with other people are trying to make broad scale social transformations about which they have no idea trying to make their immediate environment better and it's working great. Well right you say zero Hamad odd size. A former legislator there's an enormous amount of Gouden a country has some titles of the people that make it to the extent that they put together resilient. I've contribute to ask others to help them. The stronger the nation and rapidly. I I mean I think I was thinking the other day. Some journalists asked me why by people are responding so positively to what I'm saying the young men for example. I thought yeah. That's a good question says well. I'm actually on their side pretty happy that I'm really happy that they're not wasting their lives. I'm really sad to see that. People are disenchanted nihilistic and depressed and anxious and aimless and perverse in vengeful and all of those things. It's terrible to see people question whether that's necessary and then to start to rise out of that it's like it's so fun like last night. I was at after my talk so overwhelming usually think about these things but I was. I was after my talk last night. And so all these people line up you know they have their fifteen fifteen seconds. And they're kind tentative. They're excited inattentive women. Come up to talk me. And then they have fifteen seconds of time to tell me something. I'm really listening to them. And they're hesitant about whether or not to share the good news about their life you know and I think it's often because when people share good news of their life people don't necessarily respond positively. No they don't get encouragement and people need so little encouragement is just unbelievable and so they'll come something good on the carpet us so good you know somebody says. I'm getting along better with my father. I haven't seen him for ten years. Now we get along crate and then the power of that. You can't overstate the power of that for individuals to get their life together individuals unbelievably powerful force and every single person who gets their act together. A little bit has the capacity to spread that around. The it's it's a chain reaction and so it's a lovely thing to see John. Howard is Australia's second longest serving prime minister unarguably. Our greatest living statesman John served under him as deputy prime minister six years. Nhra special poll. Would you say you're a better leader for the fact that things went horribly wrong at times and you must have felt it was never going to be the opportunity again to serve at high level. I have no doubt that. All of the setbacks experienced Miami Quipped when on. Gothi now that is shit with all the benefit of Hans. Soy and in the knowledge that I finally did get there and stayed in the role for a long time. I've probably didn't feel S- out time. But there's no doubt that. Adversity hardens people. Is Niger out. That chip Bax test where the people have resilience. I look at the great figures of history. It'll I mean like Churchill. I often sigh of him because he's such an example of this the mind thing in public life he's to get the big things right political figures or indeed anybody in a position of authority who takes over a big role and says Oh. I'm never going to make a mistake is doing idea. We all make a lot of mistakes along the way the important thing is to get the big thing fraud. Churchill was an example of somebody who got the and did the big things that really mad at about along the way. Myeloma stikes citing Britain back onto the Gulf Standard. Lot of criticism of these roles. I we see go over to the strident in relation to the dodd. Nils criticism of you supported with the item. The application cross as he was allies opposed to India's independence. Things like that yet when you think of the crucial moments in the nodding thirty. We got something about the dictator's destroy us. And he was absolutely right on that and go see is been regarded by histories one of the towering figures of the twentieth century. Jonathan Height is one of the most important academics working today formerly engaged supporter of the Democratic Party. In the United States his work into the moral foundations of our political views and is concerned that the fracturing of political debate and especially the lack of balance in the university where progressive views and activism dominate has led to his work in developing tools to help us better understand and appreciate the political and religious opinions of people with whom we may disagree. What I discovered was the basic inside. John Stuart Mill. Which is that. You can't really know your own side of an argument until you know the other side and all of us are so incomplete. And so blinded by our team loyalties that we can't understand the truth unless we engage with people who challenge it and so by the end of the book. I didn't become a conservative but I basically stepped off the team. I just said you know. There's t t to understand what's going on it blinds you. If you're on a team there are good ideas all over. And so I became a sort of a non-partisan moderate Jon Stewart Mills. Quick to that effect is actually a very strong. Isn't it I or less says if you can't if you haven't understood the other perspective no matter how passionately hold your on. That's right. It's actually pretty use. He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that his reasons may be good and it would have been able to disprove them you're beginning to paraphrase But if he does not know what. The other side's reasons are Then he can have no confidence that he has gotten it right himself and even says it's not enough that those ideas should be brought to you by your teacher who does not believe them himself. You must hear them from people who honestly hold them who believe in those ideas and so this is one of the problems that were were having a has at least in America as all institutions purify and those universities are they lean left the regular reasons for that. That's always going to be the case. But as they've gone evermore left and there aren't really conservatives available to back. The teachers students are not able to get a full understanding politics and this damages our our civic life. It prepares the students poorly to go into government service. Eric Metaxas on the abolition of slavery. The earliest abolitionists in the United States of America were all Bible carrying Bible Thumping Evangelical. There's no question about it and so if you want to see where abolition started. It was always evangelical. It's absolutely undeniable. So when people say things like Oh you know. Christians approved of slavery. People may have been technically Christians in that. They weren't Muslims. They weren't atheists. They weren't Jewish so they say they're Christians. Well what Wilberforce and ilk illustrated is that. They're Christians and they're Christians there. Chris who live out their faith who see these things. These injustices and abolish them. Do what they can to abolish them in work against these injustices and then there are people who simply call themselves Christians and go to church that has never Been any different. I mean you can even say the same thing about the the ancient. Israelites are the people of God. And then there are the people of God and and just because you are technically Jewish Just because technically you're part of the The Nation of Israel doesn't make you Moses. You know there were people that bought into these ideas that had a relationship with God and then there were other people who are dragging their feet and even opposing things. So you have the Church of England And then you have. I would say you know establishment figures in the church in the United States who were strongly opposed to abolition but the Bible thumpers the serious Christians whom would call today evangelicals. They were the ones that pushed for. And then eventually it caught on with others. But let's not kid ourselves. That's the provenance of abolition period. End of sentence in this series John Seeks to engage with a wide range of different people with divergent views. He recognizes the importance of dialogue between people with different ideological outlooks. He sat down with his one time. Political adversary former leader of the Labour Party and current governor of Western Australia Kim Beazley and found both plenty of deep insight and much common ground for as Americans the leap Martinez Freedom here. Australians the League Motif is famous and freedom. In the United States have many different aspects to it in many ways they're more family oriented than we are. They more tuned tomorrow to bite than we are loud voice right than we have great religious participation all sorts of different to the Hollywood portraying very different the. Us is not Hollywood and not by any shei-pa full in any shei-pa full but having said that the supply of that with the concept of freedom which means that and because in this society The experience of the average American citizens to struggle with anonymity. There are a lot of it is very hard to get sort of ego-satisfying provinces United States. And and you don't get the about being shrinking violet. So are they've got all these counter elements to the if you like the Divisive character of of The sort of atomised narcissism. That you that you talk about They still is that struggle against anonymity which helps to drive that atomization narcissism here in Australia. We tend to value the collective much more we tend to sink. That the All of us have the right to be re as opposed to the right to rise fitness. More of saints. Hear that part of the job of governor is to sustain levels of equity in the community that have that concept in the United States nominal. Jonathan Oreo on religious freedom. Let me speak of religious stratum in the West. We're speaking about a particular rendering if the idea. It isn't the freedom to go about and wholesome for a Sharia court or someone elstein someone to diss. Because they're not respecting the particular rules of the doctrine. Talking about Western freighter religion. That has been heavily influenced by the Judeo Christian tradition in the second century. I Day Christians were accused of atheism because I wouldn't worship the gods of the stage and they wouldn't worship the gods of the stage impact because I had a scriptural justification for not doing so Christ said Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and undergo the things that are God's Christianity provides the ultimate defense against totalitarianism. It has a screw defense of the limited stage. Moreover Christianity provides the scriptural basis. For what we now as liberal democratic stage based on the idea of universalism the inherent worse and Deacon shaves a person and the secular model of government that we've come to appreciate all of those based Christian scripture. It's lost on Meister society now because in a straighter as in many other parts of the waste way becoming less and less religious Christianity she Is losing its popular appeal impact because people are no longer reading the word of God out encourage papers rate at evenings? They're isis encourage Dorgan has said rate the King James Bible just for the beautiful language in appreciated as a cultural artifact. Even if you don't have that yes because of the supposed language because it provides a great listen in the English language and we're now getting to a point with such a cultural cringe about Christianity. The people can't even appreciated from an acidic perspective. They don't want to look at how the belief in the divine has inspired the greatest art and music and literature of Western civilization. So when we start to talk about doing away with Christianity and addressing the question of would we be better off without shirt because it's the basis for Liberal. Democracy is the basis of the secular state is the basis for universal morale. Shay that Gods Lord out political systems and it's the basis for that absolutely critical western conception of individual human worse. That is Imago Day. The British journalist Peter Hitchens is a friend of the channel and has been good enough to talk at length with John on three separate occasions. His understanding of history and how it relates to current events is unsurpassed and as such he brings a singular and searing perspective. People are very distrustful of the system politics the institutions of society the Church and a badly fractured as will the fragmenting into groups that very hostile to each other. Has it come to this to this? Because ultimately things have an effect loan after. They've happened when I was just move child. I lived near the Great Support Support Smith and Southampton and would go down to the beach and watched the great ocean liners which still then went back and forth as the Atlantic. And this game you could play. You could watch say the Queen Elizabeth Norris Ship Poss- by about two miles out. And you then waits for the by wave. Sometimes you wait so long. Forgotten was coming and then you turn your back on. Track you in the back. So how'd it would not over? There was a huge distance in time between the event and I think we see now the effect of the collapse of particularly of European unity which I think began Ian and then followed on from the first World War where the Checchi's made the great mistake of supporting war which turned out quite patently. Not to be a Christian actor to be Great Wolf Civilization that had been portrayed as being and so associated themselves with wickedness on such a scale that they could never really recover them or authority and it began to draw away from that point. But of course people continue to act. You don't send get an audible. Click people suddenly stop behaving in the Christian fashion because the churches collapsing the the Cultural Christie? Ask the general understanding of Christian rules. General Knowledge of the Scriptures descended on the mat persisted in the population. Still persists people have sutton age but has pretty much vanished. I was reading the other day that thanks various Films and children's fiction many English children. Now no the Greek myths of the near the Gospels. They should not taught. Gospels is not they don't know the parables which would be a huge influence for some new them. You can't expect this kind of cultural earthquake to happen for town affect the amazing thing is that it's taken so long but the wave has finally struck the beach and people seeing the two great consequences to to write material consequences of Christianity for the societies. In which is being a trust on which almost all Serious choose must be based on the rule of A. How can anyone accept that little should be more should be more authoritative than temporal Unless they believe that it has some sort of divine origin and once that goes it goes to these things a departing from us while we continue to live in highly advanced Physically technically advanced as well. Civilizations Weather's advances are also be based on trust the law in the end as they depart the society's we'll see to protest done. I think it is an electoral process. Which we're lucky to be seeing the beginning of Gabbing Ashington on the sexual revolution first week. Feminism bringing in the new as a vanguard as Utopian equality and it had some good effects and bad effects and then we have gay marriage and this is very recent. We're not quite sure we can judge the effects yet so people like me. You're saying actually guys this. Is this bill very thin? Ice and the outcomes. We are not looking promising and the rest of society says could. Let's let's let's give people some slack and see what happens and that. We're doing that. The next the next stage and cultural Marxism develops and transsexualism. So this is this fluid identities gender identity and this looks like freedom but actually gender dysphoric also looks like mental illness. Now how do we tell the difference between freedom and mental illness? William James was very good on this. He was a early professors of of both psychology and philosophy in America and he said just look to the outcomes. The outcomes will tell you whether Jesus said something similar. Stick William James William James said. Let's look to the outcomes now. The outcomes are that that the mental health of our children hasn't been very good in the last thirty or forty years quite serious problem. It's been quite a everywhere in the way absolutely whether it's it's kids smoking skunk which which which causes real problem with with with paranoia or whether it's it's the uncertainty of of sexual freedom and responsibility in the damage to go with it and the ghastly abortion rate seven million eight million in England sixty million in America Vic cost of our new libertarian. Experiments have not been good but suddenly with the rise of transsexualism. We've moved from one point. Zero seven percent of society experiencing discomfort between the biology of the body and the psycho gender geography of the brain to to to to an exponential increase. And actually the one thing you might give an adolescent to cling onto for some kind of mental stability is their gender when everything else is up in the air and now we've taken that that stability away from them and the the explosion of Gender Dis. Fauria is quite extraordinary if our kids didn't have enough mental confusion trouble. This new element in Cultural Marxism is causing dreadful pen. And then you get a number of wouldn't just just wouldn't it be those who would say well that was because it wasn't a lot to talk about it before we suppressed it we've now given people freedom to all the elements of truth in that? Of course there is the have always been a small tiny proportion of people who suffered some kind of aspirational either The biological tiny tiny proportion or mental. Yes WE WE'VE HUMAN BEINGS. We come in in the widest variations. But the more you bring into question. Our frailties our all businesses eccentricities particularly. If you're the the scale the greater uncertainty there is and people didn't manage very well with uncertainty but if you compare the two things I buy side as you quite rightly do than the number of people who who function perfectly adequately even if they were of that end of the spectrum compared to now is enormously different now people are given the freedom to explore. They give him the freedom to be told me about this and their functionality is really very badly flawed. Neil Ferguson another friend of the channel is arguably the world's foremost economic historian although his expertise ranges far wider than that before a live audience in Parliament House in Sydney he spoke with John on a host of different issues from the rise of China to trump's America economic regulation brexit and much more one assesses China's defense spending. Maybe defense is the real word. There's a very rapid growth. A China's offensive capability China is for example building up a missile capability that would pose a profound threat to US aircraft carrier groups in the event of a conflict euro familiar and I didn't need to repeat it with China's construction of military facilities in the South China Sea. But there's a whole bunch of less visible stuff. Going on as China invests in in effect is a new generation of military capability. The drones swarm is going to be an important part of any future conflict and China as a natural edge given its capacity for building drones. So number one. There's no question that China's spending a lot on its military and to call it. Defense is to stretch the meaning of that term. Secondly one characteristic feature of America I as a policy is the President. Trump has not exactly been reassuring to traditional. Us allies in the align system was a great source of concern for both general master his former national security adviser. General Mattis is former defense secretary. They've gone An I think one has to worry a little bit about how firm the resolve the United States would be towards any of its allies in the face of a conflict. So when you put those two things together. Australia can hardly be complacent about security. Look let's just do some basic history here history's mostly the history of 'em pause. Not Actually the history of nation states and it's most of the history of conflict not the history of peace. You get peaceful periods. No question we've been in a relatively peaceful time Since the end of the Cold War but to assume that this will continue indefinitely would be to ignore the lessons of history another obese lesson of history which is being true throughout the centuries. Is that if you want. Peace prepare for war and vice versa. If you want war act like it'll never come. Allow your defense capability to atrophy. For an enormous island that is thinly populated in relative terms compared with Asia that has a Voss store of natural resources for such an island to be ill defended seems like most spectacular historical fully in particular when it is in relative close proximity to a one party state with oviously imperial ambitions. It's quite a long way away from its principal ally. The China's imperial ambitions is obvious the more Chinese leaders in this speech beaches say China. Never does conquest the war. I'm like seriously you really GonNa make that argument. Chicken Pie was taking chunks in Russia just over a century ago. So let's get really a this is not a good situation. It was okay during the American era when the Chinese were like okay. It's no problem. We'll just sell you stuff cheaply and underpay all workers and lend you a cool. We'll buy trillion stuff not a problem market price. I much to want. That was all fine but anybody who thought that that was gonNA lost indefinitely was dreaming because the whole point of America was a temporary illusory relationship and that at some point China wouldn't need it anymore and the charges account of getting to the point where they don't need us anymore on the bets that we placed from the Clinton era that they would liberalize all the Internet would somehow turn them into democracy. All that's gone China's actually going in the opposite direction. Politically Xi Jinping has increased. The central control of the policy is reimposing trial. Orthodoxy is cutting out such free speech as it developed in China's Public Square. I mean how many more flashing red lights do you need. So I think this is kind of getting to the point of urgent. I'm what I see in Australian. Politics is a debate the if it was going on in a regional council in Scotland would seem parochial. Parochialism is stunning true. A considerable efforts being made by the intelligence and national security community in this country to wake people up to the potential threat. The Australia faces by is in any way prepared from a naval point of view for Chinese. Active aggression no way. So I think this is a moment of truth. Actually I said yesterday that we were entering a new Cold War we should stop pretending otherwise. That's right on this cold. War will be very different from the last cold. War will be fought in different ways. It will be an arms race for everything from artificial intelligence to put computing more than for nuclear or rockets to the moon. And the battlefields will be different. When you consider what China's belt and road initiative has become. It is nothing less than veld politics than a global policy. It's fall extended beyond the original concept that was essentially a central Asian Indian Ocean confidence become global and the search for commodities is not a trivial part of what is involved and pause some level acquiring commodities below-market prices. That's kind of an PAS or at least not trusting to the market to deliver you the commodity so it's better than in the mind control the supply chain and not be at the mercy of the market all the most of a Navy but China currently is the US Navy. We need to clearly understand the historical logic of China's expansion to have security China account will be dependent on imported commodities and market prices. When you think about what implies for Australia it's really quite scary because strode is prize. Australia's a hugely attractive place from Chinese vantage point and not just a vacation destination or replace to study in English and I'm stunned by the lack of awareness of the strategic vulnerability of Australia. When everything should be screaming to you prepare. Helen pluck rose came to prominence for her part in the so called. Grievance Studies affair where she into colleagues sought to expose corruption in the academic field dubbed Grievance Studies by submitting bogus papers to academic journals remarkably some of them were actually published one of your papers tattered insights and I'm quoting from the newspaper here into Mile Ripe Culture based on the inspection of ten thousand dog genitals. I mean really what was what did a claim to show. And who published it that was Gender Place and culture that say in a feminist geography journal. So we're not worried about geography. It's not one of the high up geography generals but when you get a kind of identity study attached to any other discipline like feminist geography feminists social work. Then that is when you see some real sort of madness appear so yet our DACA paper as we call it. It argued that by examined by looking dogs in a dog park and instance of unwanted humping among them and how humans reacted to that we confidently state that send both dog parks nightclubs where rape condoning spaces and that we should train men like dogs and we submitted a first draft of of this and it was received positively one of the review is suggested it could be benefitted by the addition of black feminist criminology. So we did that and it really is an absolutely absurd is also very dark element there because the reason it went down well was because we were claiming a kind of implicit bias. If you've seen the referenced implicit bias is we can't see Racism and sexism so easily anymore because it's been criminalized and it's also frowned upon. But it's still a believed to be there so a lot of scholarship looks into ways to dig it out and make it visible so by making these claims about how people responded to their dogs. We were feeding into that. And by making men the villains of the piece we were also flattering. The political bias. Is Melanie Phillips? On brexit over the brexit fight is a war to the death over these two views of the wool. One view of the world is as you suggest Half the population a little bit more than half who voted for Brexit. While they're voting for walls to have a a a situation in which they could democratically ruled themselves as a nation bound together by a common culture which found expression in laws. They pass to the national parliament. Which could not be overturned was would not be subject to any foreign interference. That's what a nation is independent sovereign and it comes to it all boils down to the fact that they appreciate love want to cherish wants to continue on protect and defend this idea of a shed national experience which is bound together. That doesn't mean you can't be different within that bought. It means that there is a common shared project coordination. That's what people wanted and that's is absolute anathema to the progressive ideals All of Universalism in which the very idea of a particular culture based on particular moral precepts is anathema. Because it is particular and therefore excludes according to this dogma. Everybody else so. You can't have a situation which not everybody in the world can immediately share it and consequently must destroy it. And as a result the nation is illegitimate and as a result. Anybody who voted for that. In brexit is themselves illegitimate. They themselves must be racist xenophobic. And so on. And so the new ways think that the people who voted for Brexit are basically troglodyte S- and therefore can be completely ignored. Their view counts for nothing. They say so because they are unheard of people Senate right so we should America. So they're writing. Off is the essence of democracy if the Toronto. That's rising off many of my fellow citizens. Views are so illegitimate by shouldn't my lad. Have they say but you can see from that point of view why they have to stop this because first of all they purported to stand for everything good in the world and that anybody who stood against that view of the world was just not really entitled Apart Society Tool they could be written off the door of the deplorable. But you can do that with a few people you can do with a few hundred people you can do with a few thousand people but fifty two percent of the population. What they're all racist. That old xenophobic. So this call. This company author journalist. Murray is tireless in his determination to expose the Apocrypha Anna rationality of so much of today's political debate. Especially when it comes to the dictates of political correctness and identity politics. Yeah this is this is. There's a pattern in all of this as I say that chapter you. Can you can see the intellectual underpinnings and they come from this idea that if it's a it's a Marxist idea but it's just transferred to the modern era where instead of talking about society in cost structures you talk about minority interest groups structures and you lump people like this. What what is what is the primary aim of his Among other things it is a different interpretation of society which is therefore intended to segregate and pull apart societies as you and I might understand them so that people primary affiliation is not that. I'm an Australian but I'm British but I'm a member of the lgbt community in the greatest Sydney area for instance You can predict with one hundred percent accuracy. The people who encouraged this the people who will grab the latest claim by an interest group and run with it and it is always people always people who in the past had another way of trying to attack US societies had a radical Marxist view of the world for instance. We know this with the green issue. Where and again like like rights issues. I write about in this book. They succeed because they're not onto nothing. You know him. The green movement is onto something with the environment and with our planet but it has this hideous red interior which keeps exposing itself as desiring not not a better relationship between ourselves and our environment but for instance the end of capitalism. And it's the same with this. I expose in each of the chapters that the people who make repeatedly and desperately plane that they believe for instance that being a woman is should be merely the first step in a wider mission to bring down capitalists now. I don't think most women were on board with that. Most we'll be rather surprised to be utilized in this fashion but that is very clearly and explicitly and I quote the the various scholars and writers who've been pushing US for years. This is explicitly the aim. And it's why as I say you can always predict exactly who is going to latch onto the latest claim when when for instance the big bearded man with male Genitalia. Wins the women's weightlifting competition. You can predict with one hundred percent accuracy. Who is going to say yeah? What's the problem with that? And the people who are going to say. I'm not short climb. The big weightlifter should be winning the women's category. You can predicted and the people who say. Why have you got a problem with that? Bigot always the same people who believed in the past that our society's needed to be pulled apart in another fashion and now they'd like to do it in this fashion Claire. Liman is the founding editor of Australia's groundbreaking magazine to quote their mission. Statement quote is a platform for free thought. We respect ideas even dangerous ones. We also believe that free expression and the free exchange of ideas help human societies flourish and Progress. Coletta aims to provide a platform for this exchange. I mean the the left right divide can be useful but it's often too simplistic for we're talking about today. And I often find that the access of authority versus liberty sometimes more useful in. I think what we're seeing today with the left is he thinking of I. I think about my parents and back. When they were young in the nineteen sixties and seventies there was a lot of focus on liberty. If among for the left you know liberty from social conservativism and so on and so forth and free speech was a huge pot of what it meant to be a leftist family values by the way yes family values. Feast defenders. Shaw Mom Dad and the kids. Yeah well the The that's part of defending the working workers is to defend working families. But I think the shift what we've seen is a shift towards more authoritarian leftism rather than Li liberal leftism. And sorry I find that Liberal left us a really easy to get along with and to talk to debate with and they're happy to have debates over went any of these topics or any topic at all but it's the Authoritarians who are not are open to debate and unfortunately the kind of progressive that we're seeing in younger people. Today in that is being taught within universities is awesome authoritarian strain and and that is Unearthing and one thing that concerns me is how it gets reinforced by social media and social meteors. This great engine for confirmation bias. So it's really easy to find people who agree with you. A hundred percent on every single issue So it's I think it's really easy for young people to get into these little echo chambers. Where they're reinforcing each other. And then once they come across someone who they disagree with in the real world not equipped to be able to handle that disagreement so they go straight for the AD hominem straight for the appeal to emotion and It's really not constructive situation. Thank you to our audience for your support. If you haven't already done. So pleased. Like comment share with others and subscribe doing so means we can reach more people with this vital content along with the rest of society. We are adapting to the lockdown situation. We find ourselves in under these conditions is able to meet with his guests face to face so we have launched a new series of interviews. John Anderson Direct so John can continue share in the views of important commentators. Even more important at a time like this. Please enjoy because I should stress you but I make no claims to expertise in what I have done. Is I've started from the basic principle Islamist old journalistic inquiry and indeed inquiry cloudy and milk in the modern world. Which is the great statement. Biotech Fund is not never leave. Anything until it's been officially denied stopped from a position that you don't know And the the authorities necessarily know either and ask questions. What I have found is that a number of prominent highly qualified people and I will name them in those cases here Have Serious doubts about what we're doing. The best of them is professor. John Your need. It's of Stanford University in California. Who believe that the supposed talented rights Nineteen which you've been suggested a completely awesome misunderstood by those in Ford and based on just is not what is well what and south. Secondly of this is by no means the only person that's very prominent and distinguished professor of microbiology. In the University of months when the main seats learning jeopardy professor at Bharati has made two major interventions in the politics of his country. Saying that shut down of the economy is is wrong and disastrous particularly. He argues this disastrous for the very large number of healthy old people in our society. See rely very much on on social contacts on an exercise to sustain that health. And who if this is prolonged will will be severely and permanently damaged and he sees a quite a large number of deaths resulting from this and so trying to put this as some people try to suggest accrued question of life versus money. It isn't the the loss of life from his policies potentially considerable and you see also in the experts from Sweden continuing to insist that they govern behaves like a normal go unto takes a moderate proportion of action run precipitous in extreme action they also dot very considerably extraordinary social economic and political experiment being engaged on by so many major Western countries.

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John Anderson - Political Leader

Faith Collides

36:24 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson - Political Leader

"Hey guys just a heads up. This episode includes content that may not be suitable for young listeners. Also the political views expressed fire valid. Guests are their own and their appearance on. The show does not necessarily imply any endorsement of theirs or any entity they represent the prime minister who is and the awesome applying that went into the Pentagon. I was at high as acting prime minister and we thought it models Dana Thurston series of rolling. A task was a time when I to face the reality that I didn't know what was coming that I could make terrible I- constrain. His dies result. It's a horrendous feeling and I remember coming Super Forgotten Simul any self interest aside. It's time I come jump up and breach accomplish the ship. The buck stops may help individual as best. I can from LEX Monday. You're listening to faith lights. It's a show about industry leaders and the stories behind how faith plays into life at work. I'm grace walk on today. Show John Anderson. The former Deputy Prime Minister in Australia which is similar to the vice. President's role and rank in America was a farmer turned politician. Who played a critical role in a reformist government that boosted economic growth restored Australia's triple credit rating and saw average household income significantly increased during his term today? The economy is something understandably on our minds as we seem to be facing an impending recession fueled by the KRONA VIRUS. Pandemic as the world tries to navigate a global crisis. We may grow wary of government and politics as each country response in its own way with different degrees of effectiveness. Now today whatever you might feel about governments or politics I want to challenge you to put your thoughts aside for the moment to listen to the story. It's a story of how John Anderson got into politics. How you kept his faith through personal tragedy and allowed it to shape the way. He led his country for over five generations. John's family was in farming. They grazed sheep in Australia where they made a good living selling fibres wool used in premium apparel but his family never felt complete. John's mom die from cancer when he was only three years old leaving behind him and his younger sister Jane so there are taken care of by different people. One of them being governesses who are like nannies governesses various bath children with various times at a fan. Ever nicer my to be honest. Remember some horror but one or two. I remember enormous affection. My Dad kept us in the same. Heim kept us with him and I'm very thankfully didn't didn't try foster's out. I remember one of us. Governors such blinding me on a afternoon walks as toddlers. You must where the moon trump for quite a reasonable explanation of creating God being from that point on crystallize subservient so I grew up on a farm and it was quite isolated. I didn't go into a classroom until I was nine. I was told around the kitchen table with my sister who didn't apply mum. And but if we finish the billy we could go a and playing well sometimes. We have to work on the phone near prime to be a farmer or you were just expected to help on the farm an interesting story. I didn't know this until many as light of an author writer Polka Bapley biography. He got my school records. My parents were asked one. I was to be prepared for so it had the boys to be prepaid full dog up and my Mama had written in Milan but mains farming. My father had crossed it out and put university because my father wanted to do other things he had been in the army during the second world. We'll and he thought land was unreliable and difficult on that. I should be the first of my family to break away and do something else so I went to university. But we thinking what your major would be. I thought I wanted to be loyal. Stopped studying loan to be honest fed up very appealing. I didn't enjoy it at all. Do you think a lot about politics. So they didn't have any involvement in student politics as a university student. Not at all friendly enough. I enjoyed the conflict bodies. Been interested. Obsessive One of those people. Who believes that you learn or About statecraft by studying history but should consider to pass the future in common with Edmund. Burke I think I came to the view that the one certainty one thing you have to recognize never changes is human nature at guide me sort of birds. If you can't great influence it was to have on political views. John was quite fascinated in history. The conflict of political ideas and decisions political leaders had to make in the face of extraordinary circumstances so after John got his masters in history he went back home to be the first from his family to get any university degree but says he didn't get quite the response. He thought he would from his father. Arnie was when I came home and I love being offered a job on the graduate. The look on his face muffed. Father was in many ways around long but the look shattered. Sunny Sisal extraordinary. I realized that they don he didn't want me to go away. He wanted to come and help in. I did the edge of twenty one or twenty two. I would agree on my bills. I sort of walked away from all of that. Went Back with father spent ten years or so actively farming. Were you able to help grow his farm during that period left her will she'd actually lived money. Sosa spanned of his wealth. And so I was not working for. My Dad is in top shape. I enjoyed it. We're talking tonight and top and if you were smart it was still a very good living to be had but it was a bit loudly to at the time. It wasn't just John and his dad out on the farm for too long. John eventually married Julia and got himself involved in helping political organization while Johns Dad wasn't into politics. John Says Pretty Much. Everyone from his hometown belong to the national sparty because the nationals represented the rule minority who live far away from the big cities often feeling like second-class aliens so Jon really wanted to work on this rule city divide and realized that because he had a university education in could ride a bit. He quickly became qualified to run for member of parliament which can be compared to a seat in the US Congress and what happened to get you into the political arena. Might sound strange. A little contradictory come to the conclusion. I should drop the idea running for public office. Just help out on the organization and they never tiring member retiring. Federal member of parliament rang me and said he was retiring. He wanted me to run any splice. And at that point Julia think started to grapple with that. Mock Lock. We encourage. Julie's father was very very strongly supporting this kind enough to sign the often. You will be prepared to step up to run as a very young person for a seat in the parliament of Australia. You are described to be as charming as well spoken. That's what people broke. What were you thinking when you first got the opportunity to speak? Don School headmaster reputable credible later on my mind. Space of cool the maidens page saying. He had neither out that one day or would lead lot conscien- possibly. I was taken aback by that because he none may since I was twelve. I would've thought he's more likely sponsor Bay will absolutely stunned the delay. 'cause that's what you'd be very lucky to make. I can't let it be honest. Answer is that. I've found there a real emotional rollercoaster one to bring price delayed. Gremlin pump zinc. Jesus is good. The next year being criticized uphill downhill for something. You've said it's an extraordinary thing in public but I think the reality on a sign that it's not gonNa make. After John gave a speech. He was elected in nineteen eighty nine to fill a vacancy. He was just thirty two years old one of the youngest members in the House of Representatives at that time in a way he was an underdog because not only was he from a junior party but he also represented quieter one of the smallest districts in the country in starting off his career in public service. John had to quickly learn how to speak. In a way that would be politically sensitive well or people that loss. I won't to be locked but the experiences otherwise it's very hot in a democracy lead particularly in the twin criticism is turbocharged by social media and by the unbelievable things people say when they think they never say the offense at the Montana now than when I was in ninety. Do you remember an incident when you said something similar after the City Rajya America which were winless and the research showed it something. Seventy percent of the Rodriguez had not had a relationship where they filed a staggering number. Two need not follow walls. Carelessly constructed though will intended not think accurate observation about a civilization being doomed. Dads weren't going to be in both Nain sensitive unarmed. Feel really bad humiliated in particular in relation to people way this choice dot com be. There stayed that was on one. You can be seriously missed on the sometimes. You bring it on yourself other times in this terrible game of entrapment. That's plight over time in public life in West Allis trip. You Up and you can have a dickens of the time getting people to listen to the ovation bacillary during this period the Labor Party which is like the. Us Democratic Party was in government so in Nineteen ninety-two. John moved to a role that allowed him to challenge current government with alternative policies. It was difficult to be an opposition. But in one thousand nine hundred. Six A turn of events happen for the nationals had formed a coalition with the Liberal Party which is like the US Republican Party and the Liberal Party leader. John Howard got elected as prime minister in a landslide. Victory Demotion of all fairly that of humility that these people have given me the privilege of leading the government of this country. I will lead. I tell relation government and I look forward to working very closely with Tim. Fischer as the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia. The Prime Minister then appointed John Anderson Cabinet member which meant John was now in a position to look at government spending and national debt. Describe to someone who's never been in the political environment. What was it like when you went in reviewed reforms and how to make those judgment calls was unbelievable. Electron balancing a family household there. He tough choices. Ninety s the five of us six when the prime minister joined us when we had a really tough decision. You guys her long ball on everything. The money was spent. I was very unpopular. Their aim was to reduce government debt. A challenging task given the complexity of budgets. That could not be touched. He calls those entitlement driven because people were entitled to their pension funds and health care. Australia has universal healthcare so John and his team had to make cuts in other areas very hard with entitlements then silent what we kind of touched those written into little how we find other areas like riots transport him like research like education where we can make cuts so readily hardware so the principles that were guiding you and your team removing intergenerational fished because they say the problem is of society doesn't live within its me and is why is it. Goes it lows data guys. The next generation the generation after that which what Western countries have dumb. How Guiding Principles would that? It wasn't that money was the pagans money and the deck wasn't added. The debt belong to the taxpayer funding. We did look very unpopular things at varying some program that had been chopped. Oh we needed that. You ride wide. You put it off for five years so they were tough. Your family members will be that you for the things that you don and inside the. We just had to do this. As like a rundown business or rundown found we have to cut down on the holidays. Put off a kitchen renovation. Stop spending money on going out to dinner on Saturday. Not they get up Louise for a while just to get the fundamentals right but the cut seemed to pay off as they started to see growth in Australia's economy. We will all excited out after one term but after that the rewards roll of that work out flow and the Australian pink decided. Well actually we can say that this was was doing. I think that was an enormous satisfying thing. Meanwhile John's personal life took a turn in nine hundred ninety seven John's wife Julia was pregnant with their fifth child. And when they found out that the baby would be born with a birth defect. John started to think about how this would impact his career. We were told would require around not often enough to restrict public law. Because my when your cabinet minister? Your job is unbelievably on. You couldn't do bus so advised. Pm To step down and a couple of weeks later he died. It was very very tough time for my wife and an easy time for all the children. While John had to grapple with the tragedy of losing his son he was also growing weary of his work as John mentioned earlier public. Life isn't easy. From the day he got elected into office. He faced public scrutiny. And since John was part of a reformist government which meant they change the way things were done. They had to face a lot of resistance so much John Austin felt like he had enough. Let's take a break and when we're back will get into why John Continued in politics. And what happened when he was second in command? Hey guys I wanted to take this break to share what we have in store for next season. It's GonNa get personal and possibly more raw and relevant to what you might be going through in your careers. The reality is the corona virus crisis as going Lenny also heart and it'll be our second economic crisis and a ballot deck so we might need to brace ourselves for a lot more twists and turns at work than the previous generations and with our faith. We might need to be ready to limit out and ways. We never expected so as we take a break from our monthly episode out. What's in store for nuisance on the Wimbledon connected with social? Welcome back in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. John wanted to call it quits and public service. But he wasn't the only one from his party. There were two other leaders from the nationals. Who are thinking the same thing but with the possibility of all three key leaders stepping down at the same time John had to really think through this decision loss can present cheering with some very challenging Manas and I filled under God that the right thing to do was dying in in the pound. Strong sense says so. John Continued as deputy party leader and in Nineteen Ninety Nine. Tim Fischer resigned as leader for the nationals. Which meant John at the age of forty two was presented with the opportunity to take over as leader of his party and become Deputy Prime Minister of Australia which again is similar to the US vice president role very wanting position inside that now because the time we call it the chart to Harry the dignity of the office to the best of your ability. So that's what I do at. Interestingly enough the initial media reaction was he sucked calls in a League final wrist of the trump. He'll never wins for for went here price. Go see you had a tough start. He had a tough start in this strategy politics videos and frankly pretty tough judges on the latest but on the other hand once I get the you'll measure it challenges and so once not bad and people started to relaxing so actually. Quite approachable have many strengths. But I the principle that that sort of as quickly. But that's a nice group politics. John continued to persevere as deputy prime minister and became someone. The Prime Minister could rely on while traveling abroad building. International Relations and on September tenth. Two thousand one. The prime minister was in the United States meeting President Bush from Minister. Welcome thank you. The United States has got a great friend on what to put on record the admiration to these people while we were doing. The news conference the Third Plane Flight. Seventy seven drive into the Pentagon and we pulled back the curtains and we saw this Mike Rising and we museum beyond any argument that this concerted terrorist attack on the United stikes while it's easy to look back on a crisis after it's all over to see how things played out. The prime minister barely escaped the September eleven attacks. And no one knew who did it and what could happen next. So John Anderson was now in charge of Australia. And in those moments he had a lot to think through a strategy to ailerons which operated Mr Green Internationally. One of them fail that we just a couple of days nonliving acting prominence is a prominent sexually in America and they then non living half the prime minister was Anisimov from applying that went into the Pentagon for a moment or two. We didn't even know the prime minister he was many very quickly to getting to the Bison they they'll straighten embassy in Washington and we thought it models Dana I in the series of brawling attacks. We note was made the but they've run out of talk trying more pilots plan other sectors. It was very tough time because as a time when I had to face the reality that I didn't know what was coming that I could make terrible. Steichen stranded dies result. That's a horrendous family. And I remember Homing Mo- Sofa forgotten sign the look. I had to put any self interest as Tom Account. Jump over the bridge a Cop. Does it the ship docks salted may so help me to do my job as best. I can and feeling a great sense of Traum as everything came at me. So what do you remember the overall sentiment to be the next day and picking supertalk straight sometimes and say that they so appreciated my appearance on television very early the next morning to seek to calm? I remember saying this is a path remind of even remains with us we. We should Y we have to be paid to remain vigilant and vice of the reality of people WANNA do. Terrible things Willis goodwill ratio them. The promise was arrived that we would be. I refer to as quickly as possible to its Olea a spice three days. There was an incredible amount to be done and we had to try and kick pickle informed thing the management of crisis particularly animator age social meteorite demands regular updates and greg transparency from leaders amazingly to me the government's the Country Cigar. But the will certainly changed through it all after nine eleven. John focused his efforts on areas like introducing goods and services tax tightening gun control and creating a reform in areas like immigration and industrial relations. One Reform John was quite proud of maybe because of his background and farming was his contribution to how people use water straight is a very dry competent. I put a lot of work and you're trying to develop a better approach to handling water. Water Resources catered the basis of where I could. I look off Make pickles by Human consumption third for industry. That could be unaccounted. According to market principles create the greatest wealth Joel's and we go to very what the always say. Day described Development by sin. Paris is absolute best management plants by two thousand and five. John says he felt a sense of pride of where Australia was. And where democracy had reached in the world that year Australia was Outta debt and living standards were rising but John Started. Having health issues a prostate condition that was stress related. I was I was just because continues in cabinet by that time. Seven years in the pound on had enough enough of living in Lot. Klein's right from high etc and I thought I want to leave this while my family is still young enough for me to play some role odds so it didn't too many times people. They love their work. And they find so much meaning what they're doing to make a difference than they realize. What about me? And my my life. It is true to the particularly in public. Lachmi people become hopelessly addicted and I stopped to confuse the broader with their interests and I felt that night. It's not gonNA contributions. I couldn't thinks abrasive he sounded. I want a family. Time and I honest divert Service I believe in Sims audibility. Find Yourself until it yourself refunded insomnia your loved ones and the people around June community. Even though the Night Insane Listen appreciative spicy site. But I think more than that. I don't think on entity episode. Editing should be taught up with what we do is we taught up with who we are and how we relate a lot of types of Christian creative under a fellow human beings. John reached a political standing. That very few will ever reach. He was second in command of a nation and was able to pivot and move up in the political ladder in less than twenty years and to think that it wasn't even on his radar when he was in university but like what John mentioned. He doesn't think our personal identity should be tied to what we do. Because if we love what we do we're good at. It can even make a difference in it. What happens if or when it's taken away from you. John had a deep conviction of who he was where he's been and who his creator is because he was confronted with these tough questions at an early age when he least expected he was thirteen years old with his dad and twelve year. Old Sister Jane out on their massive front lawn one afternoon on his spring break. Father was very kings bulletin. So we would be practicing. Unfolds will hate the tickly love cricket and one often in. We're applying creek. I found the sweet spot and was building all over the place. He was only batting and in one of them is eight explicable and extraordinarily almost unbelievably freaky accidents. Drivable straight postion very hard and my sister was playing with just being this dad and her brother two daughters. Both I suppose particularly Dan James. Playing with a little kitten and she looked up scoreboard coming. Full ACHIEVE. Instinctively turned away the ball in the back of the knee. She staggered through fake. Some prices towards my Father Cooling Daddy Nissans and took to apply so extraordinary loveliness unbelievably. Guba still friends. Teachers GonNa replace where nobody can really understand. All now I'm guessing in a in a long life is not meant to three hundred zero baynes through such freaky experiences where they have been the initial course or somebody else's dates and I suppose obey night through at least on the stand inside of the place where you feel not only right and that your child is. I suspect it's gone. It's finished longer than things. That are me as a child remission. It's probably true to say a problem. We can be frank about this you to or repelling premiere of a Christian. God Who is China's GonNa love but I found that I needed to work through it in a school where they were able to helping. Let's pretend to fully understand it. Now how did you process it all? And what part of the Christian faith drew you when it could have repelled? You like it did with her father Well I think I'd probably kind of is three sided is free great dilemmas that I've grown up and you try to use it. All obvious. One is software. Why is this allowed to descend on maters terrible thing and then even the sense of that while I may not my sister was not the other way round signed general? I think I drew the conclusion that that we can understand. In broad terms of this is a broken wheel and it will always be painful. Can they'll always be swift. There will always be cheese. Which leads you to the second point. Does anyone understand or are you lung? And of course the story of a Jason Stein a completely evil Trou- in which every lull even rimal was ten months hate or node innocent man's condemned base and gruesome horror. This not only in the physical sensor does mill Mel Gibson sizes in the passion. Those are saying that maybe but also the theological sense a god who feels things multiple degree than we do. So there's somebody out there does on the stand and who cares enough to do something about it because that's the point. He dies Given to the things that I have done wrong because he has done nothing wrong. Then those the food and really important side of the triangle that has been lost in our very comfortable societies and as we speak their norms challenges abroad. I suspect Butch Huskey big now about is the hook. Can we go into tomorrow? We count operate without. We got even operate economically without hype. It's a really important point. The Christian messages Yes a east high winds will be bound up the pine will end and we will live in unison and harmony. I think that's incredibly important. Hug is something. We can't really live with us as a teenager. John had a hope that got him through the darkest and loneliest days by trusting in what God had done for him. What hope are you clinging on today to get through what's happening in the world with Cova Nineteen? What makes your hope strong enough to whether any tragedy any type of business failure or economic storm? After his sister passed away. John didn't know where his life would take and he thinks that's a good place to be those in reality. You don't know what's Kinda. Come across you'll pass you know. Opportunities will be there. You Dot unexpected twists and turns will happen what you believe what you vanities. Hey you're going to relate to Allah what sort of Chris. You're going to be one way of putting it not. Beta say you should be comfortable in your skin at life is tough win on who should be. We know that Dick down the Moyo realize falls short of a your debate and resolve those six backout difference in the world. But when would you say that you were able to figure out your values it's been a long journey? Audit sees a actor set. Very early on model was different Christian beliefs. That's not a popular thing to do. A STRAIGHT IN SOCIETY MIAMI CONVICT UPBRINGINGS MANAGEMENT. Still Alive though meant to be tough not meant to show. Their feelings are Look like control is no suffice to native crutch like religion. Because you're going to be able to do house. While John had a deep conviction of his faith and values he worked in an environment where politics was separate from religion. And that's pretty different to what we see in the US so even his sister's tragic accident. John didn't openly speak about how defining her death was for him and his faith until after he retired from politics in two thousand five. So how can faith play into politics from John Story? It's about serving the country to the best of his abilities. Relying on God when it was out of his control and doing what he believed was in the best interest of entire nation and for future generations. John served in one of the longest serving governments in Australia. Creating reforms that put it in a debt. Free position before the global financial crisis and while John has since retired from politics. He hasn't stopped caring about the people. I think probably would have been quite heavy founding again but I did become very concerned after Ed Greg. Financial crash in this state of the public by and the polarization. That's at that. Governments have not been to this Saudis Ford and get them in a good place for the next shot. The Knicks Sharks here. We're in a bad place to do with it. That's the lesson this one and get real about Nike show that we visit the sort of stuff. Children grandchildren leaving them. Unable to cut with the setbacks of the shocks and the things a role I really admire that you are someone who cares about influencing the generation. Even after you're out of public life trying put something back. While they broadcast on many unique position. I can be flexible with Montagne. Icon was kind of nineteen but nobody can travel and take kindly willing to come on just recently. John started a show with prominent leaders. Who Talk about faith and their political world of you. We try mobile is a long phone conversation. Marseille. I'm interested in getting folks on the title and we WanNa do it in a similar way where we invite people to stop and walk in our shoes. While and think these issues for trying to stand out the spectators. So what has it been like for you to have? This platform took very fine young stranded a lot lower guy told me you brought the impact. It's had in his lots not that's one of tomorrow's leaders and he's told me at. Sunday's off upside down for the better and I thought well that one person might resulting list while if you WANNA watch more of John in these conversations visit his website John Anderson Dot net dot. Edu or you could find the link from our show notes and beyond John just sharing his story to us on Faith Collides. We also captured some of his political views. What do you think politicians are thinking right now at this moment regarding Cova nineteen imagine the nineteen. They'd it wants to be in command when everything guys custom and one false move even if it's just specifically the removed that sort of brings the economy down costs all sexually the economy. They jobs increase prospect with respect to now praise. Whenever you can sense of trying to do the right thing at the end of at the end of this we are going to have the mother of old about how we move all now if you liked what you heard about John his insight on how the corona virus might impact. Our Future is one. You won't want to miss. Make sure you watch out for the free bonus content just make sure to sign up for a newsletter on our website this Grace Wong and thank you for listening and I hope you and your family stay healthy in every way have a blessed weak faith collides hosted and produced by me. This episode is edited by Me and China lead audio mixing by Joshua.

John Australia John Anderson prime minister John Continued United States Deputy Prime Minister of Austr Prime Minister John Story John Howard Tim Fischer America Pentagon Jane John Austin China Cova LEX Pandemic cancer
John Anderson  Political Leader

Faith Collides

36:24 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson Political Leader

"Hey guys just a heads up. This episode includes content that may not be suitable for young listeners. Also the political views expressed fire valid. Guests are their own and their appearance on. The show does not necessarily imply any endorsement of theirs or any entity they represent the prime minister who is awesome applying that went into the Pentagon. I was at high as acting prime minister and we thought it models Dana Thurston series of rolling. A task was a time when I face the reality that I didn't know what was coming that I could make terrible I- constrain his dies result. It's a horrendous feeling and I remember being super forgotten simul any self interest aside. It's time I come jump up and breach accomplish the ship. The buck stops with me so help me did my job as best. I can from LEX Mundi. You're listening to faith lights. It's a show about industry leaders and the stories behind how faith plays into life at work. I'm grace walk on today. Show John Anderson. The former Deputy Prime Minister in Australia which is similar to the vice. President's role and rank in America was a farmer turned politician. Who played a critical role in a reformist government that boosted economic growth restored Australia's triple credit rating and saw average household income significantly increased during his term today? The economy is something understandably on our minds as we seem to be facing an impending recession fueled by the KRONA VIRUS. Pandemic as the world tries to navigate a global crisis. We may grow wary of government and politics as each country response in its own way with different degrees of effectiveness. Now today whatever you might feel about governments or politics I want to challenge you to put your thoughts aside for the moment to listen to the story. It's a story of how John Anderson got into politics. How you kept his faith through personal tragedy and allowed it to shape the way. He led his country for over five generations. John's family was in farming. They grazed sheep in Australia where they made a good living selling fibres wool used in premium apparel but his family never felt complete. John's mom die from cancer when he was only three years old leaving behind him and his younger sister Jane so they are taking care of by different people. One of them being governesses who are like Nannies governesses the various Paphos's children at various times at high fan. I am of my to be honest with some horror but one or two are men with enormous affection. My Dad kept us in the same. Heim kept us with him. I'm very thankfully. Did he didn't turn fosters. I remember one of US got us. It's explaining rate on a Austin walks as toddlers little taller than undreamt-of and she got caught a reasonable explanation about creating God daffy existence of going from that point crystallized so I grew up on a farm and it was quite isolated. I didn't go into a classroom until I was nine. I was told around the kitchen table with my sister. Who in the play mum? And if we finish the billy we could go a and playing. Well sometimes we have to work on the phone your prime to be a farmer or you're just expected to help on the farm does an interesting story. I didn't know this until many as light of an author right up ochabamba biography. He got my school records. My parents were asked one. I was to be prepared for so it had the boys to be prepaid full dog up and my Mama had written in Milan but mains farming. My father had crossed it out and put university because my father wanted to do other things he had been in the army during the Second World War and he thought. Lan was unreliable and difficult on that. I should be the first of my family to break away and do something else so I went to. What were you thinking about what your major would be? I thought I wanted to be a lawyer but I actually stopped studying on to be honest fed up very appealing. I didn't enjoy it at all. Do you think a lot about politics. So they didn't have any involvement in student politics as a university student. Not at all friendly enough. I enjoyed the conflict bodies of one of those people who believes that you learn or About statecraft by studying history but should consider to pass the future in common with Edmund. Burke I think I came to the view that the one certainty one thing you have to recognize never changes is human nature at guide me sort of birds. If you can't great influence it was to have on political views. John was quite fascinated in history. The conflict of political ideas and decisions political leaders had to make in the face of extraordinary circumstances so after John got his masters in history he went back home to be the first from his family to get any university degree but says he didn't get quite the response. He thought he would from his father. Arnie was when I came home in offered a job now. Undergraduate the look on his face muffed father was many is around long but the look shouting sunny sisal extraordinary and I realized that they don. He didn't want me to go away. He wanted to come and help him. I did the twenty one twenty two. I would agree on my bills. I sort of walked away from all of that. Went back with father. Spent ten years Actively farming were you able to help grow his farm during that period left her. Will she'd actually money. Sosa expand a bit as well and so I was not working for. My Dad is in top ship. I enjoyed it and we're talking tonight and top on. If you were smart it was still a very good. Living to be headed loudly institute is that it wasn't just John and his dad out on the farm for too long. John eventually married Julia and got himself involved in helping political organization while Johns Dad wasn't into politics. John Says Pretty Much. Everyone from his hometown belong to the national sparty because the nationals represented the rule minority who live far away from the big cities often feeling like second-class Australians. So Jon really wanted to work on this rule city divide and realized that because he had a university education in could ride a bit. He quickly became qualified to run for member of parliament which can be compared to a seat in the US Congress and what happened to get you into the political arena. Might sound strange. A little contradictory come to the conclusion. I should drop the idea running for public office. Just help out on the organization and they never tiring member retiring. Federal member of parliament rang me and said he was retiring and he wanted me to run his class. And at that point Julia think started to grapple with that. Mock Lock. We encourage. Julie's father was very very strongly supporting this kind enough to sign the often. You will be prepared to step up to run a very young for a seat in the parliament of Australia. You are described to be as charming as well spoken. That's what people wrote about you. What were you thinking when you first got the opportunity to speak school? Headmaster reputable credible Biden stage of cool the maidens page saying he had neither out that one day or would lead dot com Possibly I was taken aback by that because he none may since I was twelve I would have thought. He's more likely sponsor Bay will absolutely stunned the delay. 'cause that's what you'd be lucky to make. I can't let it be honest. Answer is that. I've found there a real emotional rollercoaster one to bring price delayed. Gremlin pump zinc. Jesus is good in the next year being criticized uphill downhill for something. You've said it's an extraordinary thing the ban in public on a sign that it's not gonna Mike. After John gave a speech he was elected in nineteen eighty nine to fill a vacancy. He was just thirty two years old one of the youngest members in the House of Representatives at that time in a way he was an underdog because not only was he from a junior party but he also represented quieter one of the smallest districts in the country and starting off his career in public service. John had to quickly learn how to speak. In a way that would be politically sensitive well or people that loss. I won't be locked but the experiences otherwise it's very hot in a democracy lead particularly in the twin criticism is termite charged by social media and by the unbelievable things people say when they think they never say the offense at the Montana. Now that the ninety ready. Do you remember an incident when you said something? I remember once after the City Rajya America which were windows and the research showed it something. Seventy percent of the Rodriguez had not had a relationship where they filed a staggering number. Two need not follow walls. Carelessly constructed though willing tended not think accurate observation about a civilization being doomed. Dads weren't going to be in both Nain sensitive unarmed. Feel really bad humiliated. In particular in relation to people way choice DOT com. They stayed that was on one. You can be seriously missed on the sometimes. You bring it on yourself other times in this terrible game of entrapment. That's plight over time in public life in West Allis trip. You Up and you can have a dickens of the time getting people to listen to the ovation bacillary during this period the Labor Party which is like the. Us Democratic Party was in government so in Nineteen ninety-two. John moved to a role that allowed him to challenge current government with alternative policies. It was difficult to be an opposition. But in one thousand nine hundred. Six A turn of events happen for the nationals had formed a coalition with the Liberal Party which is like the US Republican Party and the Liberal Party leader. John Howard got elected as prime minister in a landslide. Victory the deepest emotion of all phillies of humility that these people have given me the privilege of leading the government of this country. I will lead. I tell relation government and I look forward to working very closely with Tim. Fischer as the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia. The Prime Minister then appointed John Anderson Cabinet member which meant John was now in a position to look at government spending and national debt. Describe to someone who's never been in the political environment. What was it like when you went in reviewed reforms and how to make those judgment calls was unbelievable. Electron balancing a family household up there. He tough choices. Ninety s the five of us six when the prime minister joined us when we had a really tough decision. You guys her long ball on everything. The money was spent. I was very unpopular. Their aim was to reduce government debt. A challenging task given the complexity of budgets. That could not be touched. He calls those entitlement driven because people were entitled to their pension funds and health care. Australia has universal healthcare so John and his team had to make cuts in other areas very hard with entitlements then silent what we kind of touched those written into little how we find other areas like riots transport him like research like education where we can make cuts so readily hardware so the principles that were guiding you said we're removing inter generational fished because they say the problem is of society doesn't live within its me and is why is it. Goes it lows data guys. The next generation the generation after that which what Western countries have dumb. How Guiding Principles would that? It wasn't that money was the pagans money and the deck wasn't added. The debt belong to the taxpayer funding teacher generations. We did look very unpopular things at this very some program that had been chopped. Oh we needed that. You ride wide. You put it off for five years so they were tough. Your family members will be that you for the things that you don and inside the. We just had to do this. As like a rundown business or rundown found we have to cut down on the holidays. Put off a kitchen renovation. Stop spending money on going out to dinner on Saturday nights. They get up Louise for a while just to get the fundamentals right but the cut seemed to pay off as they started to see growth in Australia's economy. We will all excited out after one term but after that the rewards roll of that work out flow and the Australian pink decided. Well actually we can say that this was was doing. I think that was an enormous satisfying thing. Meanwhile John's personal life took a turn in nineteen ninety-seven John's wife. Julia was pregnant with their fifth child. And when they found out that the baby would be born with a birth defect. John started to think about how this would impact his career. We were told that he would require twenty four around. This often also will have to portray public law. Expect when your cabinet minister to? Your job is unbelievably on. You couldn't do bus. Saw Him to step down and a couple of weeks later he got. It was very very tough time so my wife had an easy time for the children. While John had to grapple with the tragedy of losing his son he was also growing weary of his work as John mentioned earlier. Public Life isn't easy. From the day he got elected into office. He faced public scrutiny. And since John was part of a reformist government which meant they change the way things were done. They had to face a lot of resistance so much. John often felt like he had enough. Let's take a break and when we're back will get into why John Continued in politics and what happened when he was second in command. Hey guys I wanted to take this break to share what we have in store for next season it's GonNa get personal and possibly more raw and relevant to what you might be going through in your careers. The reality is. The Corona virus crisis is going to hit millennials hard and it'll be our second economic crisis in about a decade so we might need to brace ourselves for a lot more twists and turns at work than the previous generations and with our faith. We might need to be ready to live it out in ways. We never expected so as we take a break from our monthly episode releases. Be Sure to look out for what's in store for our new season on the millennial career path and please get connected with us on social media if you haven't already welcome back in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. John wanted to call it quits and public service. But he wasn't the only one from his party. There were two other leaders from the nationals. Who are thinking the same thing but with the possibility of all three key leaders stepping down at the same time John had to really think through this decision loss can present cheering with some very challenging maynas and I filled under God that the right thing to do was dying in in the pound. Strong sense says so. John Continued as deputy party leader and in Nineteen Ninety Nine. Tim Fischer resigned as leader for the nationals. Which meant John at the age of forty two was presented with the opportunity to take over as leader of his party and become Deputy Prime Minister of Australia which again is similar to the US Vice President role very devoting position inside that now because the time we call it the chart to Harry the dignity of the office to the best of your ability. So that's what to do. I'd interestingly enough. The initial media reaction was he sucked calls in a league. Final wrist of the trump. He'll ever wins for went here. Surprised that see. You had a tough start. You had a tough start in this threaten politics videos and people to frankly pretty tough judges on the latest but on the other hand once I get the you'll major challenges and so once not bad and people started to relaxing so actually quite approachable. I have many strengths but I the principle that that sort of as quickly. But that's a nice group politics. John continued to persevere as deputy prime minister and became someone. The Prime Minister could rely on while traveling abroad building. International Relations and on September tenth. Two thousand one. The prime minister was in the United States meeting President Bush from Minister. Welcome thank the United States has got a great friend on what to put on record the admiration of these people while we were doing the news conference the Third Plane Flight. Seventy seven drive into the Pentagon and we pulled back the curtains and we saw this Mike Rising and we museum beyond any argument that this concerted terrorist attack on the United stikes. While it's easy to look back on a crisis after it's all over to see how things played out. The prime minister barely escaped the September eleven attacks and no one knew who did it and what could happen next. So John Anderson was now in charge of Australia and in those moments he had a lot to think through very toughly strategy to alarms which operated Mr Green International. One of them fail at wait. Just a couple of days or non living and I was acting prominence prominent sexually in America and been nonliving half the prime minister was Anisimov from applying that went into the Pentagon for amendment. Oh two we didn't even know the prime minister he was. I've met very quickly to getting to the bison the embassy in Washington and we thought it models Dana System series of brawling attacks. We note was made to be but they ran out of. Todd tried more pilots plan other sectors. It was very tough time because as a time when I had to face the reality that I didn't know what was coming that I could make terrible. Steichen dies result horrendous family and I remember humming Muskoka forgotten. Sign THE LOOK. I had put any self interest silent as Tom. I come jump over the bridge. Accompanies it the ship docks? Salted may so help me to do my job. As Best I can and feeling a great sense of Traum as everything came at me. So what do you remember the overall sentiment to be the next day and Sukhum uptrend straight sometimes and say that they so appreciated my appearance on television very early the next morning to seek to counter remember saying Mrs Pather Mile of that even remains with us we? We should y. We have to be paid to remain vigilant. And the vice of the reality of WanNa do terrible things goodwill ratio them. The prime minister was awry. That we die he to getting as quickly as possible. But it's all a spice three days. There was an incredible amount to be done and we had to try and kick pickle informed the management across this particularly animator H. S. I shall meteorite demands regular updates and greg transparency from leaders amazingly to me Off THE GOVERNMENT'S THE COUNTRY SAGA. But the will certainly changed through it all after nine eleven. John focused his efforts on areas like introducing goods and services tax tightening gun control and creating a reform in areas like immigration and industrial relations. One Reform John was quite proud of maybe because of his background and farming was his contribution to how people use water straight is a very dry competent. I put a lot of work in trying to develop a better approach to handling water. Water Resources catered the basis of where I could. I look off Make pickles by human consumption third for industry. That could be unaccounted. According to market principles create the greatest wealth Joel's we go to very what they always say. Data's Grog Day Organization Breaking Calculation Development by Sin. Paris Scott's louis-based water-management plants by two thousand and five. John says he felt a sense of pride of where Australia was. And where democracy had reached in the world that year Australia was Outta debt and living standards were rising but John Started. Having health issues a prostate condition that was stress related. I was I was just because continues in cabinet by that time. Seven years in the pound on had enough enough of living in Lot. Klein's right from high etc and also. I WANNA leave this while. My family is still young enough for me to play some role so it didn't too many times people. They love their work. And they find so much meaning what they're doing to make a difference than they realize. What about me and my my life? It is true to the particularly in public. Lachmi people become hopelessly addicted and I stopped to confuse the broader with their interests and I felt that contributions I couldn't thinks abrasive he sounded. I want a family time and I analyzed. I've Service consumes audibility. Find Yourself until it yourself refunded in Serbia. Your loved ones and the people around June community even though the night insane. Listen appreciative spicy incite. But I think more than that. I don't think on entity episode. Editing should be taught up with what we do is we taught up with who we are and how we relate a lot of types of Christian creative under a fellow human beings. John reached a political standing. That very few will ever reach. He was second in command of a nation and was able to pivot and move up in the political ladder in less than twenty years and to think that it wasn't even on his radar when he was in university but like what John mentioned. He doesn't think our personal identity should be tied to what we do. Because if we love what we do we're good at. It can even make a difference in it. What happens if or when it's taken away from you. John had a deep conviction of who he was where he's been and who his creator is because he was confronted with these tough questions at an early age when he least expected he was thirteen years old with his dad and twelve year. Old Sister Jane out on their massive front lawn one afternoon on his spring break. Father was very kings bulletin. So we would be practicing. Unfolds will hate the cheekily love cricket and one often in. We're applying creek. I found the sweet spot and was building all over the place. He was only batting and in one of those eight explicable and extraordinarily almost unbelievably freaky accidents. Drivable straight postion very hard and my sister was playing with just being dad and her brother two daughters. Both I suppose particularly Dad James. Playing with a little kitten and she looked up scoreboard coming full achieve instinctively turned away the ball in the back of the knee. She staggered through fake. Some prices towards my Father Cooling Daddy Nissans and took to apply so extraordinary liveliness. Unbelievably Gudiberg still friends teachers. Swear nobody can really understand all now. I'm guessing in a in a long. Life is not meant to three hundred zero billions through such freaky experiences. Where they have been the innocent Coles or somebody else's days and I suppose obey night through at least on the stand inside of the place where you feel not only right and that your child is. I suspect it's gone. It's finished longer than things. That are me as a child remission. It's probably true to say a problem. We can be frank about this you to or repel from all a Christian. God Who is China's GonNa love but I found that I needed to work through it in a school where they were able to help me. Let's I don't pretend to understand it. Now how did you process it all? And what part of the Christian faith drew you when it could have repelled? You like it did with her father Three is free. Great DILEMMAS. That up or not and you try to use it all obvious. One is software. Why is this allowed to descend on? Maters terrible thing and then even the sense of that while I may not my sister was not the other way round signed general. I think I drew the conclusion that that we can understand. In broad terms of this is a broken wheel and it will always be painful. Can they'll always be swift. There will always be cheese. Which leads you to the second point. Does anyone understand or are you lung? And of course the story of a Jason Dying a completely evil Trou- in which every lull even ramble was ten months. Hayden or node innocent man's condemned base and gruesome horror. This not only in the physical sensor does mill Mel Gibson sizes in the passion. Those are saying that maybe but also the theological sense a god who feels things multiple degree than we do. So there's somebody out there does on the stand and who cares enough to do something about it because that's the point. He dies Given to the things that I have done wrong because he has done nothing wrong then those the food and really important side of the triangle that has been lost in our very comfortable societies and as we speak their norms challenges abroad. I suspect both asking now about is the hope. Can we go into tomorrow? We count operate without. We got even operate economically without hype. It's a really important point. The Christian messages Yes a east high winds will be bound up the pine will end and we will live in unison and harmony. I think that's incredibly important. Hug is something. We can't really live with us as a teenager. John had a hope that got him through the darkest and loneliest days by trusting in what God had done for him. What hope are you clinging on today to get through what's happening in the world with Cova Nineteen? What makes your hope strong enough to whether any tragedy any type of business failure or economic storm? After his sister passed away. John didn't know where his life would take and he thinks that's a good place to be those in reality. You don't know what's going to come across you'll pass you know. Opportunities will be there. You Dot unexpected twists and turns will happen what you believe what you vanities. Hey you're going to relate to Allah what sort of Chris. You're going to be one way of putting it not. Beta say you should be comfortable in your skin at life is tough win on who should be. We know that Dick down the Moyo realize falls short of a your debate and resolve those backout difference in the world. So when would you say that you were able to figure out your values? It's been a long journey delegates. He's I actor. Very early on model was different Christian beliefs. That's not a popular thing to do. A straight in society convict upbringings management still alive though meant to be tough not meant to show the feelings of Look like control. He's not supposed to native crutch like religion. Because you're going to be able to do with house. While John had a deep conviction of his faith and values he worked in an environment where politics was separate from religion. And that's pretty different to what we see in the US so even his sister's tragic accident. John didn't openly speak about how defining her death was for him and his faith until after he retired from politics in two thousand five. So how can faith play into politics from John Story? It's about serving the country to the best of his abilities. Relying on God when it was out of his control and doing what he believed was in the best interest of entire nation and for future generations. John served in one of the longest serving governments in Australia. Creating reforms that put it in a debt. Free position before the global financial crisis and while John has since retired from politics. He hasn't stopped caring about the people. I think probably would have been quite heavy founding again but I did become very concerned after Ed Greg. Financial crash in this state of the public by and the polarization. That's at that. Governments have not been to this Saudis Ford and get them in a good place for the next shot. The next shocks here. We're in a bad place to do with it. That's the lesson on this one and get rail about Nike. Show that we visit the sort of stuff. Children grandchildren leaving them. Unable to cut with the setbacks of the shocks and the things Rome I really admire that you are someone who cares about influencing the generation. Even after you're out of public life trying put something back. While they brought can't Midi unique position. I can be flexible with Montagne. Icon was kind of nineteen but nobody can travel and take kindly willing to come on just recently. John started a show with prominent leaders. Who Talk about faith and their political world of you. We try mobile is a long phone conversation. Mersa Interested in getting folks on the title and we WanNa do it in a similar way where we invite people to stop and walking shoes wall and think these issues for trying to stand out the spectators. So what has it been like for you to have? This platform took very fine young stranded a lot lower guy told me you brought the impact. It's had in his lots not that's one of tomorrow's leaders and he's told me at. Sunday's off upside down for the better and I thought well that one person might resulting l'islam if you WANNA watch more of John in these conversations visit his website John Anderson Dot net dot. Edu or you could find the link from our show notes and beyond John just sharing his story to us on faith collides. We also captured some of his political views. What do you think politicians are thinking right now at this moment regarding Cova nineteen imagine the night they'd it wants to be in command. Whenever guys custody one false move even if it's just specifically the removed that sort of brings the economy down costs all sexually the economy. They jobs increase prospect. I really respect the now. Praise whenever you can sense of trying to do the right thing at at the end of it at the end of this we are going to have the mother of old about how we move all now if you liked what you heard about John. His insight on how the corona virus might impact. Our Future is one. You won't want to miss. Make sure you watch out for the free bonus content just make sure to sign up for a newsletter on our website this Grace Wong and thank you for listening and I hope you and your family stay healthy in every way have a blessed weak faith collides hosted and produced by me. This episode is edited by Me and China lead audio mixing by Joshua.

John Australia prime minister John Anderson US Deputy Prime Minister of Austr Prime Minister Julia John Story John Howard Tim Fischer WanNa America Paphos John Continued Jane Pentagon China Cova
John Anderson Direct: Featuring Douglas Murray, Author and Journalist

John Anderson: Conversations

1:11:12 hr | 1 year ago

John Anderson Direct: Featuring Douglas Murray, Author and Journalist

"You're listening to John. Anderson direct featuring Douglas Murray. Please note that John Anderson Direct is recorded live via online streaming which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum. Thank you very much indeed for your time with us in Emma and tremendous reception amongst the big old excess accusations in this country to what you had decides which travelled farm law but the risen quickly from the Tremendous Company and Greg Compensations is at in that show. Time has changed beyond belief Celebrating celebrating the extraordinary reception of your madness crowds in which he talked about the way we up to end the stool liberalism and we're trying to create a society on some very unstable at Upton legs of that stool had braids raging but since they added. The whole outlook is completely changed. Fully lift was made an election which produced an extraordinary results. But we now have something. That's changing the way we live in the short term and likely to mess of the older guides ahead along will do the permanent damage. I think the Global Liberal Andhra economic future and sadly the other thing. I'd love to touch on this very good friend of yours loss to us all cerro description but if we could counted corona virus. I can you give us a European perspective. A what's happening in particular London and across your yes. It's was speaking. I think you know pretty early still in this crisis time in which the seriousness of it has now become clear. I think everybody everybody advice. Wool number of of people The government by some countries has had to take extraordinary measures. And we've seen announcements that. I think most of us would not expect to all is a by MRS telling everybody over the eighty seven thousand homes Future encouraging no more than two people the gallery in any one place encouraging also keep a distance from each other societies and much more and and these are things which very few people with thinking about until a few weeks ago. I'm extremely reluctant to make any pronounce occasions on it And remain silent on the whole issue because I do believe in expertise and there are a relatively small number of people who have spent a lot of time in their lives studying and Iris. By all in I think that these at these moments Mon So incredible testing Ahmad Things for society and they all the moments when we not only have to acknowledge humility and recognize that humility but drawer upon what reserves. We have and by that I mean the reserves of resilience and courage and fortitude and more which will be among the only things that will make sure we get through a crisis like this as very liberal. It most of us can do other than follow government advice. The scientists advice some people decide they would light cavalry with that and as I say. Hold themselves out as having some. Alvis petits or some people are still of course still fighting political battles Through the prism of coronavirus pro and a Pro. I feel office context saying the certain degree of contempt. Because a moment this is when everything changes and we get to remember what it seek fixture internal one. Motari citizens can do. Stay calm and carry on this. I think the past who is actually put up rounding boom but we will so what set of England in the style of the forties. Massive cultural changes that have taken place since. Then you've just on how much of that resilience that willingness to pull together in the face of across you think Can still be drawn out in Great Britain did I will. We'll see like with every country. I have tiny Feeling which I I try to Abacha way of the feeling of sort of In a way pleasure seeing A cliche I we will keep calm. Carry a sort of aggravating cliches nation to think of itself as having because I thought for a long time it's had been slipping away. Shall we say I think that Britain is no different from any other country in away? We'll we'll see. I say as Australia will what what personal resilience who's like but it's it's it's not getting the easy for people because there's such a degree of Pacific about it. There are lots of things we should not do but it's it's very harmful on people know what they can do. Enormous cruelties of that. This virus the cruelty of Encouraging people to be basically wary suspicious of other people having to distance ourselves on neighbors Rather than Dirk laced them The horrible thing which many of us have had moved all parents and their children not being able to touch each other to hug each other. These are these a meaningful personal cruelties. And we will have to find a way to get through. That and I would suggest that one way to do so is to put it in a kind of historical perspective and to say if this is A great test or even the great tests of this age than we should consider ourselves relatively lucky because it hasn't come about through having to kill people and it hasn't come out through wars come about through something which commits us to a passivity bottles demands resilience of us which I rise to like everyone else. It has been I should say I just add. One thing has been enormously to see people across the world particularly for me. I'm from across the continent of Europe. having to do things which they just were not expecting ever have to do in their lives and people celebrating the people who are showing resilience in that you know. The people actually have suffered greatly in recent weeks greatly and the thing that we want to talk about do talk about rightly is not just the suffering but the heroism which they've shown it's mostly she services no medical solve but also people you know it's it's videos of the. Italians standing on that balcony singing the gone around the world. And that's that's the those are the things to hold onto. I think understand what you're side actually. Despite the fact that way Pinson unfortunately imagery news school of as that Ab- roll of toilet pipe in the supermarket had become a front page story in the Scandinavian newspapers. And that's pretty impressive. Added perfected police. What is happening in some quarters strategy of of all countries need? Not Worry about supply and stuff. Cnn Mums all of Britain's sufficient in food is remarkable for a seventy nine in paper lung area. That's about the same as the victory once represented in the central problem straight might Will the senior journalists referred this very issue last weekend said that this cultural individual non-citizen now goes on trump with mutual sessile support? Now survival repair. It might be in the gun. Just as they did the honorable thing in the first second were will never lies behind very bad and very opportunistically balance. I think middle aged middle of strategies that they will be measured calm festival this icing setback for the terrible narcissism. That's blinded to the public way behind in in recent jobs. Yes it could do a I. I'm wary of making a predictions about such things because in my observation everything can always go in any direction. You know I'm I'm enormously fond of Of a quote the Great Czech writer Milan Kandara. Who said in his late works testaments betrayed? He says mankind is we operate in fog. We we stumble off some we. We find may the missed when we look back. We see a man we see off but we don't see the fog. What he's saying of course is that everything appears to be inevitable once you've got there because you got that and you forget the the difficulty the complexity the impossibility of knowing where you're going to get to as you're going through and in that lies very important humbling truth which is as. I say that some people will say well inevitably. This crisis will diminish. The cult of individualism is possible. It could have and that equal might actually be more suspicious of might be more wary contact number people. Imagine if if this pandemic gets really bad. Will people want to live in cities? Will they want to physically isolate themselves a bit more? That's possible as well. It's incredible nothing. Could look to the future to unfold. And one of the greatest announce frankly is how much economic damage. This will do already very serious. That impacting massively on people's lives. But at the end of this they will be. I think I furious the by now that I have recently about the people of Indian behind about where to from here. The reason really important to make is the I think the right financial crisis as Matthew Paris right at the time and you'll country Faisal. Bright Nolan wanted to face the fact that collectively we had been irresponsible with built up horrendous those public sector debt both that problem and the attempt to if you like a comment by creating slashing which my big assets via made it harder and continue out young people who won't get into that first time whatever build wealth harder for him at a real Fisher the put. The claims concerning to me is not well prepared for this economic calamity entities calamity because we didn't holding in the broader national interest in our individual countries in after the Jay Z. We will have to stop. We really will so the sword Ladyship we get will be very important. Not Buzz Hope. What a unitary series we can will buy what we lack just print money. They'll be those not actually. This is terrible hanging. I have a we have to prepare for the next downturn. We've gotTA get housing order. Who WINS THAT DEBATE? I think we'll be incredibly important to the West absolutely but You know you know very well. But off to the financial crisis two thousand eight countries which were Princeton's merely reducing public spending In order to service the debt among other things were presented as going through periods of great austerity. I mean remember the use of that word austerity austerity for a slowdown in borrowing for instance. It would not seem to be austerity in the eyes of of many economists. I wouldn't feel like Oh surety in the eyes of many of the public but yet that was what it was always presented as Britain was was said to have gone through a period of great sturdy. We didn't And I yes I do worry like a lot of us who would like to like to have responsible levels of art and levels of debt. I do already about what this leads to embrace. Unlike other countries inevitably autom- has considered trump's in Kosovo government have approved a massive fiscal stimulus at and that may well be righteous may be very hard to say how you could You allow the number of businesses small businesses on Oughta go under He personally many many people I know who self employed of on now facing incredibly tough times Key public workers will in this one respect. Be Okay but there are a few sections of the economy. Which just what bay and the correct response probably is neutral concept of the quarry of me. Like because I don't like to see be approved Lov The economics of delayed fantasy. We need to prepare ourselves for that debate in will be very very important one. The the was raining announcing night in Australia. In many other countries is often bring cold stimulus packages. I know the risk packages unnecessary leave people. A hug from without means. Fadi themselves numb. The reality is that In Britain Alon something about fifteen percent Gdp just paying added to national. Australia win over already. Already and Dennis is already threatening wasn't threatening future generations within absolutely levels of Texas will require next time not to shy Y. I think for some very tough decisions to give up on the native tools. I I probably the only way to do that. Even politically the only way to do that is to make it clear that what we are going through in a stimulus or rescue package is something we will that it is that it is this is the the the the baroness but it will require pay back. There is something it's all about Borrowing you expect to be paid back by the next generation and that is not that it is it is not a it is not a decent way for society to treat itself. I agree I agree strongly prepared to live within our means we've out of STAC Exalted ideas about how we should against our children. We need to ask ourselves tough questions. And this will throw a lot of tough questions by the way so at one of the on that. Which is the basic presumption of it is the the the next generation will not go through anything similarly challenging isn't it? I mean that is the when Britain invented itself during the second world. War Did so not just to survive. But in the presumption that this Second World War would be something which would not happen again and therefore the debt would be able to be paid through the succeeding. Decades is anyone confident but something like the Wu. Han a corona virus will not happen again in our lifetimes. Let alone something similar happening in the lifetime of the next generation. You know that would be. You'd have to have some kind of certainty like that to legitimately morally in debt to the next generation point. I think it's credible when to stop the crowd file thinking around those issues we have to. We'll be future shocks and by the tonnison ugly we will use. Almost all of the shots in law had low interest rates. We've had the printing mummy in various forms and guises liquidity every way and we haven't wound back out public sector dates now Cited the space. But I do want to say we will have to be more realistic and more honest than we were opt- GMC on children and grandchildren site. But that's a good segue into a Politics as it is to die since we five extrordinary victory by or Jones turns electoral map on its hidden. Almost in Great Britain won't tell you about Britain and does it mean That bring successful. As a new sense of unity on the political front there is the crisis inevitably produces a certain amount of political unity At least common purpose The election in December already feels like a lifetime ago a different this extraordinary consecutive victory It's a It's it puts. It puts Britain in a very good position for lots of reasons. We were in a horrible trap. It was like being trying to jump off a cliff and getting snagged on your shirt on a twig on the way down like some like some cartoon character what it felt like since the referendum and then the May government era and since have missed a strong. They charge means. The they're all these things. The Cath when militias like from a different look on Abbott and the Johnson of them office seven put the E. U. Withdrawal Vote back to the Commons in many of us had a slaughter. Ptsd like Shiva Ono that putting the e U withdrawal bill back in front of the Commons. It'll be rejected. They've gotta go boss with them with a vast majority because the government had a vast majority and all these people who we had to worry about in recent years deciding whether they personally wished to A allow this bill hostage more with over and And and and it passed and and that's what he's been light. Legislation is being being passed that has put us in a in a good position for law in lots of ways and And indeed Britain might be Ole miss the best lyrically these days in in Europe says something And as I say obviously everything change at least in class go into south `isolation you know. I mean it's so who knows what a strong all week government looks like in the next few weeks and whether that term is metaphorical not anymore. All purely political or not But yes The the one additional writers were saying is that the EU itself is once again on the unbelievable crashes because of the the reassertion of the very thing that the EU since Maastricht sought to overcome which is the nation states and during the current crisis as with the migration crisis of Trendy fifteen which I wrote about the strange death of Europe. We see this thing in which a political construct whatever one thinks political construct of the EU is is tested and indeed shown to be an ideological project is practical boundaries or at least questionable by the fact that in the face of a crisis in Twenty fifteen nine twenty twenty. The Nation states reassert themselves even in the face of the insistence that they wouldn't do so you know it is it was not the e. U The closed its borders. It was the announcement and closed owners. That FRANZ SOCO's its borders in Italy and Hungary country after country closed their borders. It was in each case. Done as a unilateral action and as as everywhere in the world You know having having talked about full about traveled throughout the whole issue of borders for some years. It some if you'd said to me a couple of years ago what are the Sich. What are the circumstances in which Justin Trudeau announces but foreigners will be out tomorrow? I can't see like let's see how that happens. Then Lo behold it does but they're very. They're very interesting things in this. That again gave back to this thing of you. Know the mine. My fear of of Of any kind of prediction but it is interesting that the when societies the a fawing where than natural points of resilience are important natural feeling of unity lies disguise back to something you mentioned where the scrutiny is going back to something that scrooge and wrote about a lot which was what is what is the widest most legitimate form of the first person plural of what is the what is the best form of we. What do we mean when we say we? We is who and we the nation's best as his being by we all know it's not a Is by no means a failsafe is by no means is not exactly as if it is not something that can go wrong. You know we we own. Anyone knows history knows how nation states can go wrong. It's not as if it's it's the perfect answer to everything. But it is will continue to be impact. Now we'll be rea- searches being the widest way in which you can talk of we with legitimate feeling of ownership to finish you yourself may not necessarily have contributed that meaningfully to an entity which you can also draw something you can Chad. Says you feel pride. When that we'd ASSUMP- Undo Bentley? Yes everywhere in Europe everywhere in the while. The recession of the we of the nation state is one of the most remarkable things going on as we speak. I rinse lots of the Undeniable so I mean it's simple way starting out as they decided to an understanding wide attended doesn't look to Brussels sort of government and look at how an and by the way and that self requires some leap of faith among the Italian people Full I don't seem to be making some kind of Anti tiny point but I mean to put one's faith in the Italian government is is Requires what kick a gods may have. Fed was a leap of faith Italy as a country since last will set up to be ungovernable Bought it is very striking and quite right. The Italian people look to their government because once again during this crisis the supranational government the EU actually has tended smack quite outrageously in my view upon excellent. And and this will will teach its own lessons. Not all of them by any means A good there are other signs the president of Serbia the other day extraordinarily You making remarks about how the youth which has been of course seeking to join. I'd never been. It's true. Fending that shoes true fundamental countries aid in his hour of crisis was China. Now these these off in in in statements like this which will pass many people buy it in statements like this where the president of a contract. Serbia claims that at this moment of crisis is China. The proof to be the truth and in moments like this one can see some of the fault lines in which the the era after this crisis will be run along and an enormous amount is going to depend on whether or not that lying faint buying of mercenary political infighting bill Thinking whether that is the properly tested and indeed com tested on not without issue of rising earlier device. We have options will be another way of looking at this with great aside presumably. Hopefully somebody will come up with an editor at soon solution within the country in which that happens I'm sure will be very keen on exploiting until they have enough for their own needs therein people. Yeah that's a little hardware is emerging as a clear acceptance globalization has limits. Yes I mean it is. That is one of the things that we have We've talked about in recent years and haven't been very willing to acknowledge You know some. It's it's very interesting. The way in which people talk about these injuries which globalization as a term is is one of those tricky ones. Isn't it because it's it can be? I would use it as a description of a demonstration a description of facts of the fact that we live in unprecedented connected while some people are used globalization it as meaning an ideological project. And it's it's worth making clear which one of those while means. I think that the globalization of fun only use it. The description of the interconnected world is which is a morally neutral point. I think in a way is to say that that is neither a good nor bad it means that it has good and potentials within it but like everything else in in life but it is is a description of a natural state will also have drawbacks full to that extent we are currently learning and seeing some of the doors by every single one of these things look at the advantages of technology. The advantage of technology that allows John Anderson me to be toll king literally on opposite sides of the planet is good but it is. It is the same technology that can be used. Terrible bad for the pumping out of of bad and untrue ideas and nation at two on a saying had we get the balance right. How do we ensure we see through as we move through this terrible crisis way? We WanNA guard the end of it because you talk about. Soviet saying China's framed now that he's going to be the subject of some very heated discussions because a one little piglets. Saying well Authoritarian very feisty concerned J. This trial in this is on the other hand. Now go everybody from will slogan is I should downside Jonah mob job of containing because sued Place down fake deadly. Then you go to a wall if you like between China and America John. Cy denied a civil weeks when we could plan properly. China tools or something will the dysfunctional and immoral wish. Engler probably be very interesting to bytes about a half hour. We give up how we discern the one in which to capture. The benefits of technology was of free try without sacrificing. Things like essential supplies all testing. Yet what have you EVAC sites? I cover the I. I would say that in terms of Chinese self reporting as it were I would. I'm sure you would treat it with enormous degree of skepticism. I know nobody who does business in China doesn't say that they don't believe any of the books that show you know. Let's assume just as financial books in China are not to be trusted so this statistics on this latest virus on not to be trusted and I think that would be my starting point and again it goes back partly to a political truth which may have forgotten which is that Countries which have governments that are responsible and on several to the people by and law. Jr are likely to be in fact. I think every situation able to be trusted more than regimes which are not remotely accountable to the people and who can cover up. Lies and perpetuate lies with zero consequence. Should they should. They wish to do so so that suggesting second thing is I'm very struck. By the fact that is as important out that that may be an axis which turning on here Australian Very interested in recent of watching shift in opinion towards China. Something has gone museum as well which is not gone on in the same way. In in Britain for instance it has in America. But we were just until this crisis. We were in Britain this in about to have a really meaningful Scott about law. H and bat debate about whether who I was allowed to be a provider of five gene. I thought that was going to be the moment where we could have the discussion about China in the way Australia has had it in recent years and and I suppose I would the way. I think this is the we were always on a balanced sach with China. Which was we recognize Laura Nature. We didn't like it. We weren't wild about anything off of the financial benefits. It could bring us now in that situation. What you do is is rather like country allowing a lot of all the gods from Russia to arrive. You have a social tipping point moment on the one hand you you you like. The fact that is a bit of fiscal stimulus succumbs. Some very rich people spending basically dishonestly crude money in your major department stores and that sort of thing but at some point there is an ethical price to pay for it and it to China which is far bigger than the other example. I just give in the examine of China's seems to me. The question was always financially from. And what is the moment at which we stay off selves in some great her way through this so we were always in some kind of calibration of precisely when the moment might be that we knew as it were to put it in highly moralistic terms that we were losing our soul in some way and I wonder whether again it could not it could be the case that this has no impact on this the Chinese by and Peel and deflected way out of responsibility with much more or it could be the point to which we realized what we should have been a bit more honest about all along? Which is there is a price to pay the doing. The kind of deals doc. Countries had been willing to do with China last very strenuous because they are fighting and she countries in the world. The big train service child now regionally thanked the Russian on Carol. Call Hell's settlers said to a regular as I think I did worry. I'm stuck with something that kissing you. Say along a guy said in a in a contest between prosperity and freedom a little trained lost control E B Guy And Freedom. Once lost can never be yes. That's right freedom is perhaps Until we'd lost perhaps we hadn't benedict properly yes nor fulfillment -tarian recently commented that we should never have lost our understanding of the simple fact that communist communist in the aim. The communist behind is quite bleeds. Freely to the question of the breakdown of clear thinking about political ideologies can be separated to ask you whether you think there's anything Rabi turn serve concern in England today Well as I say. These are highly unusual times. There's nothing conservative about it spending habits at the moment I'm I'm sort of willing to give them. You know a considerable leeway given the situation wherein I mean. Let's put it this way. What are they to behave the moment in an extraordinarily ideologically rigid conservative fashion when it came to the fiscal stimulus is also It'll be exceptionally bad for the country but a much less significant order priority not a particular boon to conservative conservatives. Lose I mean cops like this point and that node principles we must do. Ext- hand led. The people lost their houses and so on. Have the homes? Repossess you know I mean I'm I'm ideological. School card is has to be very carefully. Mock such times But I take the point to you. May Of course. In every country conservatism is different. Isn't it because among other things you know? The left is different because the the choice for the British put lots of Johnson's consecutive party. Oleg part give Durham equal or Incredibly conservative entity because but because it's not populated by mouth loving Marxists. Who THOUGHT THAT? Broadly speaking nine thousand nine hundred and nine have been the sad this year the twentieth century. I mean we were facing easy to laugh about it now in a way because we soldiers civilised right off but you know we were facing a late led by the most extreme political ideologues of thaw far left the Labor Party. It ever been led by in it in its. Longman and and partly noble history so from that perspective. Boris Johnson government looks very. I don't doubt at all that from other countries including Australia. At this moment it doesn't look But this is very well the question of whether London potty now goes as it. Set THE BOISE. Six A new leader. Yes I mean. It's very hard to sum up any calf for which of the soda creations that have been offered to the Labor posses. A membership to vote for is is guy me they did. You mentioned this has been rumbling on since the December election I mean a kiss. Dahmer is a is a is a dislike Qabail but relatively competent figure Who may well be the person who leads the party. As as hard to summon up much care for it the they all look like including him. They will just looked like to me. I people who are paying an instrument that's gone out of fashion People playing some form of music long after interest in that full of music is poss- and not of the he good form of music. I might add. I these people who've been having weeded ideological battles about the nature of being a woman as I just you know. I just look at this in the current crisis for an and thing. I don't know what your four really I don't. I don't know I mean maybe I can try to make it more positive by just saying that you know those of us who have lamented the lack of told Tyler in recent years of partly lamented this hallway. Which is our politics is is is the setup of politics deliberately avoids all of the most important issues and as a consequence involves itself in minimalistic a deeply issues and as a result. The talent doesn't go into politics and throughout my entire lifetime. I've I've I've wondered. Why the politic talent it's being so clearly drawn and and obviously you have to keep in mind that you know if you look at the Commons at any point in history you know. There were remarkable people but most of the place was filled with not remarkable mets Asia. Things you have to remind yourself that in order not to get stuck in some false false memory syndrome. Nevertheless it's been striking me thought my adult life that has been the when people entered politics in my lifetime. One full less of them than I did before which is exactly the opposite way round and how it should be that if somebody became an aide you thought that sad they promise role that do not and and and that's because that's because because the the way in which politics have been set up in recent years in all of our countries meant who would go into adds an increasingly who would go into it if they were you know intelligent and had great ideas and and you know Were funny and talented and also capable of great depth. Because if somebody hangs you in such a person came to you and said look I'm thinking of going into politics. You Know Nine. You say Whoa. Whoa that's a terrible idea On Day one you'll say something You know the true and you'll be crucified for it on Day. Two you'll have. Oliver is later on day. Two you'll behold into the whips office. You'll be told never to do that again. And by day. Three and be just like Louis other guys in Parliament. And that's been the case he is And I'm I'm interested three this crisis and often how we can change that one way is to be more more tolerant of the danger of ideas which is something it'd be much mind to recognize. Scott is dangerous because you need to try things out and the enormous reduction of the acceptable political debate in our time has not been constructive in the end for US sihities Connecticut. I also think that they loss of commitment particular thinking of Christian Democrat. Senator left with you talk about crossing levels when you talk about conservative whether in fact communist once people lose a vices from which the amount political campaigns out of conviction out of a clear understanding. Oh wait I think. The wolves who got society should gut and the mole People civilly lost they convictions from differently. Respecting the more you slide managerial ism and I think that is a great problem. Safeway into well two things. The first is that. Perhaps this is changing. You tweeted recently speaking event and you tweeted early. In Las Nights. There was a small servants accusations of TRANSPHOBIC and other crimes. The ENTIRE CAPACITY AUDIENCE TURNED ON PRACTICES. Who escorted out very make me? A pathetic practiced chiding proved my arguments and didn't bother me. I thought that was encouraging. You must have encouraged this will ease their debris rationality returning to the public debate and the challenges we face and the absurdity of the public divided recent news. Yes I thought. I suppose that that's evening in question where I was on stage in London being questioned on my last book on the Philis I think possibly recombination Melanie. I'm me on. The sage was just too much for this tiny band of protesters. Who Were there? Yes I think there are a small number of complete Nostra's who I feel sort of pity for as well as contempt who you know basically mis-read the whole world misread what life is about mis-read where you should find purpose in your life. Mis-read everything to the extent that they think that they should try to shout me down. Good luck with that They should come to an event and try to shut me down by the whining and public long before the Cuban any started I think there's several things by his. Yes I wasn't surprised but yes. Entire audience tend on this route. Pathetic you from. Geigo protests is married meekly left I mean I I any things interesting. The way is the fact that you know there is a broad feeling. I think in the country dressing and I suspect is now. It's been awhile. Your Muslims have been Australia's having to come back soon. Looks like it might be a little wild for I can but I my sense is roughly saving Australia. That a small number of people in all societies and had the disproportionate effect through being able to sort of bully and intimidate people and by now Is One of the bottom isler self appointed tasks not least in my last book by now. We've sort of on dumb quite a lot of that. Some of us have tried to expose what they've been doing how they've been doing it. And how we can basically ignore them and take if any points that Worth take them in and then invite them to move along Yes I think that I think that there is also there is a distaste in general for hecklers Distaste for people who think their own opinions of so important that they should turn up and tried to interrupt people who have come to here and there shouted wrestling's but but the primary thing on this famous an attitudinal one quite a lot of people. Why this why sent out that tweet. I rarely tweet had anything as you know. But the attitude I would like to say is the one that I was doing that night. It's not like it's suppose. Just why do I want? I mentioned is that is not to say. Oh my God there are people who don't like me or my God. There are people who disagree with me. I assume that I assume that that's fine. We should all assume that but I also think it's very important is people rise. How deeply unbothered. I asked about the disagreement. You know how deeply deeply does not concern me a jolt? And that if they think that someone like me or God knows someone like Melanie. Phillips is going to change her mind because of some of the thebte`aining little Gakhal well. They've got a hell of a lot of growing up to do. What a great thing. The audience A RE related deep. Because I can't think of too clearance thinking Peyton Melanie and I coming to people who want to be when other remarkable vigilant. You very close Frenchman's not well enough known in this country was described his personal view. Yes it was. It's still a very painful He Was a remarkable man and he was in my own. Life is extremely important for lots of reasons one was. He was one of several people when I was starting off who is enormously not just inspirational but personally enormously important. Roger. I got to know each other and not is enormously lucky a just as I was starting my career writing politics. I'd already written about literature but I was starting off again. Was intern is a small website. Which used to try to bring Left and right together at their best. The dog you points you know. They're real essence. Rather than you know. Soldiers Punch and judy as it were of cool. Sid Failed And but the only Description Act it would vary occasionally ten off at the office and who I started to read and he. He noticed that I seems to be somebody will not entirely dissimilar views. And he said to me failure. Leon allegedly inter making a coffee and occasionally allowed to write a blog. You know and this is how you saw the Rojas one day. He said you've probably worked out by now. Darcus this whole thing is about fifty thousand leftists versus oss so it's a fair fight and thus the fringe it was formed and But that he was also one of those people who understood the deep importance. Not just all of a nurturing people in ideas and inspiring them but the practical things that often mean as much. If not even more you know he would. He would tell you that. He had struggled a lot in his life and struggled a lot particularly Three years and sort of political wilderness that he'd lived in when his thinking was deemed to be wholly unacceptable. And he had to find it very hard to to to you know. Basically A to to live. And so he was very encouraged. Clocking out come up had a small if you did this you could for that menu could use them on the book and then and that sort of guidance is you know that actually is sometimes. Illness is important as as the personal ideological inspiration some device. But that's just the pencil fell on. I mean he even think who he wrote Molin fifty books. I think the end he he wrote only aesthetics of music political philosophy lost at fee on a specific thing. 'cause you remark book. He was the full. Not just that philosophy but act in the world if all of cutting the beauty in the while we cannot do without yet we. We seem seemed to be willing to deprive ourselves off and he was a thinker. Who is our mutual friend Rabbi Jonathan Sacks once said to me I think in some ways seemed greater than the age And he was diagnosed with cancer sudden he'd been Other visibly ill had terrible. Sort of shocks last year He is very pleased as he when he came to my birthday. My fortieth birthday last July and I think it was the last time he went out. It was diagnosed the next day and he was very clearly he had something that was wrong and he had ignored it or being distracted by all the things and he was given a very bad diagnosis and he survived on the six months. It's enormous personal blow and a blow to an awful lot of people who looked to him as a source of guidance and as a rock in the midst of the turbulent not just of of politics of life because to great extent he not only fought about things but leave them as well and demonstrated to other people how to live them but I thought at his funeral. Mom's free in In January at what I think. Now which is there are lots of ways in which we we we think about can think about friends and loved ones you died and obviously the religious have their own very complex but consoling on to this which. I don't or in any way reject but the nonreligious can have their announces or lease not ons responses to this as well in a one which is on my mind. Some has something. Matinee miss the novelist to Raja wouldn't add very much to all that much admiration for love for pass on. My name is once read in his memoir experience which I think is best but he said you told the death of one of his relatives and he said that I don't have one. He said he said how much everyone was feeling. That positive friend rally even What he what he aim is said there is what I think. Roger Annoying along with people. I said that this is where we go when we die into the hawks of those who love us And I think that's the case. And everyone loved Roger and admired him and everyone who will go onto love and admire him and discover his work Part OF HIM. We'll go in them and They and we are all incredibly lucky people full that of course I wanted has been going on. It's very very good friend in. He was outrageously alive because he was a conservative misquoting his numbers. He lost a post which he was eminently suited as as a national architectural. A Conservative member cycle conservative governor before Doggedly shoes the real transcript of getting sick which completely exonerated him. And I would've would've night the person responsible for destroying these standing in that way because it hunting very deeply WanNa do very public mea culpa and some people are very snuck in this overanxiousness I mean I I didn't make any because In Raj white legacy down to hover over it but yes I mean in the law. Some of his friends feel very bitter about this Some people think that what the New Statesman did Toronto in last year of his life At the very least distracted from realizing what was happening to the body and others put the blame will clearly on that and I don't. I don't see anything about justice. That is something. A lot of people angry about the New Statesman under the editorship of Jason County. Yes they lied about Roger and because I love him and my at him and respect him and I wanted to defend him and I did and As you describe on manage to reverse the situation And I often worry of the number of people of paps. Less Eminence. Who similar things have happened to? You haven't had people to defend them in that way and the horrible injustice. They must feel having their lives. Ridden over in that way by dishonest. Disreputable Figueras I am. I don't like to sort of Morally Judge Watson someone so but I cannot understand how somebody could live with themselves. If they'd off to they done what. Those journalists tried to do to run an eye The editor of that magazine in particular who I have met and I thought to be about a decent man to how you could live with yourself to know that if it hadn't have been for somebody else exposing what you dom. Raja would have gone to his grave with his reputation in tatters and identify how they live with themselves. So that knowing that they had spread on truths and knowing that those untruths had an impact in the world at a deep impact on a man's and his family's life You know it's not for me to judge but I I cannot understand how somebody can live with themselves and not feel at the very least desire to deplete humbly and genuinely Beg forgiveness dishonest behaviour. Thank you because I think what you just said. Very Pathway Burger in Poland rule is to consider. You know we're all capable of doing the wrong thing. We all need to be all when we do. We need to learn up not run away but he in very generous with you talk. I sincerely do make a stride in when rule frame to move again and to funnel as Greg questions if you put up the ones related Described as a great thinker. I hope people reading more widely interviews. Talk to yourself having. He's thinking quite powerful very challenging and as little as put as a perfect gentleman police things courtesy consideration which is something will. I think he's actually crying. I really enjoy Major but those are very below the other thing that I think you said it before it was a great challenge if what do we do just encourage the flow. Because he's back into a bag had wayne courage really good men and women we have. We have quite a few of them in Australia but we need to pay a hand up for the most notable of all public service positions is of Representatives. So the cried but someone believe me if we get this right as cynicism will become a self fulfilling prophecy him we is leading well. The is a two way process. The fast is the demands people to step forward themselves and the second is the imams the public to have if an attitude towards B. We agree the game a cash to the mountains and say and then pummel them or take one example the gaff in the gaff which people are found to be guilty of very often again Is saying something true which are not meant to said? Well how about? We just haven't agreement that when somebody says something true they are not be punished for it. That's a good place to start and the press and the public that in our hands you know. It's in our hands not look at another one. The U-TURN we've all seen this in recent days have been Thad self-appointed virologists who were previously just tax. You know who who say. Oh My Gosh. The government is you turn. When did the youth come in this? I if I can tell you Dr Village for an straight into a wall I stop and I do a u-turn. It's it's not it's again. It's not morally always determined move. It's perfectly reasonable maneuver. In the face of certain circumstances. It isn't government has so-called U-TURN. It isn't sign of imbecilities necessarily might be very wise. It might say these games as a played in the letter imposed on it. How about we you know. I have confidence in the British government. I have confidence in Australian government and I have. I have confidence that if they change their mind on something in a difficult area in unprecedentedly complex situation you know it isn't because eighth Turned or shown themselves to be in some way malign but simply that they're trying to do their best in a horrible situation and that we should have a degree of tolerance and say it is just the reciprocal thing between online and the politics On the wider issue. I think flip dedicated a time like this. This is this is a deep moment drawers reset at the very beginning on our reserves. I I think Something that Strand said his students Chicago I think it was on the death of Winston Churchill when the announcement came of the death Winston Churchill and I actually just pulled out the reference. I go to in front of me. He's Strauss said on the occasion of Churchill's death. He said he said we have no higher duty. And no more pressing duty Lynch remind ourselves and our students of political greatness of human greatness of the peaks of human excellence that we have the moment in our self isolation an opportunity to demoralize ourselves own opportunity to among other things re moralize ourselves. We have the opportunity to wallow in self pity all to dig deeper and to do better and You know I think that all of our countries have deep wells that we can draw upon Australia has an exception leagues extraordinarily deep. Well of people thinkers an incredibly rich tradition which it can drawer on a tradition in literature and art and much more. Maybe we could use these days meaningfully by reengaging with that. You know we've just been talking about Roger Scrutiny but another friend of mine who died since we last spoke a less New Pretty well. Taking in recent years with Clive. James and I adored clive and My life alone. A feast a library books and the mortgage and deep thinking as well as he's perhaps better known for which is his incomparable. Huma and ability to make life happier You know this is another great great person. Great figure and you know you can have a wail of time as well as a very very significant time in the coming days if you just reached the shelf and got some of. Clive's books off you know and then so many others around clean coal so I suppose what I think is less. Let's uses time. Well Andrew Drool well upon it. Well thank you very much for that. Because in Census. Sasha wanted to talk to you tonight we to use opportunity. The circumstances are provided with might be to do some hard thinking because they'll be be decisions to be night at the end of we're GONNA rock paper. Latest strove sincerely hope you do get to a strategy in an autism future sincerely plenty of people get the heat what you got the site including particularly those people have to lead us. Four out of the Car Malaya's an enormous pleasure inversely and to you John Take. Yeah you've been listening to John. Anderson Direct for further content visit John Anderson Dot net dot a U.

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John Anderson Direct: With Peter Hitchens, Journalist, Author and Broadcaster

John Anderson: Conversations

50:23 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson Direct: With Peter Hitchens, Journalist, Author and Broadcaster

"You're listening to John. Anderson direct with Peter hitchings. Please note that John Anderson Direct is recorded live via online streaming. Which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum between it. It really is a genuine. Plays A to see you again. Have the opportunity to tool. Godfrey shouted hugely. The circumstances are extraordinary. You're in Oxford in England. I'm not no switched Yussef wiles on farm and yet we're able to communicate by means of mob technology and thankfully the sound and visual quality. Look very good not but I wanted to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time about Nineteen Colorado arse way known as much about it as we did tonight we might extraordinary decisions right across the what we do now is that it appears that it isn't as dangerous not to diminish the important so during brought as modest being on the other hand what he's now around is coming on the back. All the mess was never cleaned up after the financial crisis all ten or twelve years ago. This is going to reshape. The global economy asked the Saudis. The strategic architecture will will be very different day. Some came to talk to you about the very interesting things. You've paid sign on the disease but you really have an extraordinary and valuable generalists perspective. I think if I can put it that way of history all different sorts. All government regime societies around the winter. Establish Some Principles. I think in the wished particular as to how Margaret Establish how freedoms and some degree of economic tawny and future. So thank you again for joining us now. A touchstone. We know surprising to alignment has no sauce Just how little we seem to know even now about the epidemiology of tomatoes. It's non union making the point that some We have three essential problems a lack of knowledge of the necessary diners bars. The fact that many might get it which is nice symptoms and we learn more about that every day and the crucial distinction between as you put it so succinctly between dying with say nineteen and dying all can. I ask you just unpack the very interesting and I'm thinking Suspected you had on US tonight. It's a cool it's an. I should stress you but I make no claims to expertise in what I have done. Is I've started from the basic principles was old journalistic inquiry and indeed only In the modern world. Which is the great statement by telephone is not never believe anything until it's officially denied stops from a position that you don't know the authorities don't necessarily know either and ask questions and what I have found. Is that a number of prominent highly qualified. People and I will name them. In those cases here have serious doubts about what we're doing The thrust of them is professor. John Your needs of Stanford University in California who believe that the supposed mortality rates from Kevin Nineteen. Which you've been suggested a completely awesome misunderstood by the Ford based on statistics not working well-worked insulting secondly of this by name is the only person that's very prominent and distinguished professor of microbiology in the University of mine. Since one of the main seats learning jeopardy professor Bharati a has made two major interventions in the politics his country saying that the shutdown of the economy is is wrong and disastrous particularly. He argues that this disastrous for the very large number of healthy owed people in our societies. We rely very much on social contacts on an exercise to sustain the health. And who if this is prolong will will be severely and permanently damaged and he foresees a quite a large for deaths resulting from this. And so if we're trying to put this as a a some try suggest accrued question of life versus money. It isn't the the loss of life from his policies potentially considerable and you see also the experts from Sweden who continuing to insist that govern behaves like a normal government takes a muggeridge in proportion of action rather than precipitous extreme action. They also dot very considerably the extraordinary social economic and political experiment the engagement by so many major western countries while who are in truth the outlines the ECCENTRICS S of shutting. Down there economists of making a tax on personal liberty. I the At it seems to me of the intensifying economic crisis you mentioned earlier which is almost entirely dropped off front pages of newspapers. The major spite being an enormous and grave events in the history of Tumbling stock markets the the full sutton tarnishes. The general declines economic. Does what by to start with. But if you survey what's going on in my country the absolute devastation particularly small businesses service industry. Count them bills. The growing number of companies which have Sunni threatened themselves on the mercy of the Government. Which from somewhere. Other wet is proposing Something like that. He'll forty billion pounds sterling to pay people doing nothing of for several months with. I've never seen anything like it in my life. I think is is the world be run by teenagers? Does nobody know anything consideration and when I raise these issues because instinctively I felt when it began? That's that that some sort of questioning needs to take place. I thought the purpose of having a free society was that policies examined in public debates. It and it's always been my view that no government is is does not benefit from having serious informed. Opposition will its policies will improve their post. The other people in the media for people in social media was Viking Parisian Valetta words insults. A shout to rage should even death question as I find this astonishing this atmosphere of total belief. It what big brother tells us in this collapse into the big brother. But supposedly free societies belong his his most disturbing life. I fight against it but I have their moments and I think it's a really be have each something very end zone but I think that's an interesting set of perspectives. I take it. To Divert Vermont. You'll have seen written very very kathleen about the way in which the authoritarian regime that you experienced in Russia. Strip the soul out of the place people in a very bad state indeed and as you were saying why would we voluntary? Tikal on the attributes. Seventh Oratory The poppy is always right in the West When we've seen how ugly it is when it's forced upon what quite on here's the Thing will though the Soviet Union demanded of a public concession DOTS. The government was always rise in the body was always rise to the Communist. Party's regime everybody. Knew that from the intelligentsia done what's right down to the minors of Canoga in Siberia. Nobody took any of this stuff seriously. People went to the marxism-leninism Trusted out in Paris in the rubbish. They were told they didn't believe it was absolutely astonishing. Modern Western societies is that people actually believe the government propaganda which fed and get quite angry if anybody challenges it until I I'm watching at the moment. The first John I've had The the the extraordinary dramatization of the bill a fat which which is not available One of the striking things about it is the initial desire of the of the authorities to suppress newsworthy. That they couldn't have done it they could have done. And of course Oh said to prevent the expression of dissent that is why the builders off to happen because there was no dissent because there was no examination of government policy because competence was not valued. Highly enough because authority was valued to highly. Because debate wasn't allowed. I look alike with already. Why would anybody wish to recreate one of the most disastrous societies? That ever existed on the face of the planet. We seem to be tending in that way. There's also something remarkably Soviet almost Frankenstein Stein in about the belief that by government action you can slow the spread of virus. I it's it's It seems to me to be hubristic. To imagine of. Human action can fight such a natural phenomenon and I noticed a tool show that we even understand the nature. What is with fighting? That's true I think we do but not to be entirely sympathetic. I'm not a legislator in Hamburg mom and I look at the dreadful pressure that legislators are on the very real concern in the community Ill about health. Younger people about the jaws and they future medical stuff and frontline people. Mayan deliveries while trying to how to manage the price in an age when the has not been much in. The answer's yes from full hearing a range of perspectives. I think they jobs playing extraordinarily difficult. Wealth interestingly here in Australia. It's imagine now that they caught a little popular support for the Government. Here has tried to respond. Had Do we ended. I H way we tell you one another Until something comes along and then we demand simply the government which would not in the way that we we undermined tack all institutions in the paper. Who Man if I can use that expression in the generic sense. How when we have confidence in them does have been turned out that we place trusting them to get us through something like this demand essentially wartime like control that lives and our economy. Will this point which is being made by one of them missed experienced? It's actually accomplish Lewis. John Lewis Johnson formerly on what we loving go last Supreme Court. I came out last week and said that one of the public is demanding. These measures of a effectively repression on the government was was giving it to them. I think a lot of this has to do with the of the very serious effects of of the sirens losses. Sasha's which discouraged maintenance what you might Cologne intellectual elite of people who would confident of that the knowledge in their their ability to reason and would therefore able to challenge governments and also. The other thing happened is that politics is not largely needed. Such people security at the level of of Cabinet appointments which tend to take place people in these days in that size as in the thirties and forties who simply have not been educated to think independently. was examined things probably so suffering in all imagine western countries from an absence of independent minds in positions of of authority flights. It was notable when John sumptious spoke last week of have very different. He sounded literacy not an Akita. Cnn coherence from the politicians who criticizing it. There is a an absence societies of what I regard as judge leadership. It really showed like this as the public goes. The evangelization of the Mass Media and social media we conformism which they promote is is increasing these and is Seems to me again to be to be a major problem which I've warned against informed on this on this occasion as shown itself to be a very dangerous influence on Sundays Direction. I have had some support in raising the issues that I've done. I don't support that I've even seeking. It's the it's the willingness of the to debate the issue at all but in this battle all the supposed supposed safeguards breaks out on civil society. Failed Parliament failed the official opposition site. The the media almost entirely sale as soon society failed in general courage among individuals. It's simply hasn't been discussed. The act of discussing it is to not just descent. Launched a rebellion on society in which that is the case. Count seems to meet well-governed. It's interesting that they're strong parallels with things that we talked about the full. I've had a big concern that since the financial crisis all by seven I liked that believe display in the West chronic reluctance to added responsibilities. Really we created that miss and in a whole range wise if you like because of absolute filing culture move on Else having As I think Messi Harris right very interesting article in the Australian at each one of your Rod cousens I'm let's face it with Brooke. We have to face up to this but now I would. No one would do a steady. No one would take the tough measures to prepare for this one will. Do you see the film. The big shored fascinating because it examined in beautifully simple terms the simplicity. That any of those who fully understand the subject can do exactly how the lead the two thousand eight crisis came about and points out all the elements which led to it was in place and it was bound to happen again and here it is happening obviously in a slightly different fool and we're making it was. Let's just look at you think it is. The nobody knows what's going on on the enough. It's one of the prime minister's Senior in Britain than notorious. Donate Cummings famously. Said if you years ago you think when you got into politics it'll be like in the James Bond movies West someone's room literally intelligent people but I'm afraid the truth is there is hush room if it's suicide divorce. We imagine that these know what they're doing and sometimes it's best to do that because otherwise this is but an you just have to live your life thinking somebody who's in charge but on this occasion where it appears to me a severe mistake as me at one with consequences which written down the case for thought longer than I will be allied on it went into the lives of my children and grandchildren. We have to protest and say what you're doing then stop and listen to those who might have a different point but there is no sign of the it comes back to the whole we by now retool amount but let's look at the rule numbers he. I'm a strategy was mic section. We're not law By not being unduly smuggling are great Was Tributary government. That actually list Astrid with money in the Bank Justice Jay Style. They walls not call him. It was mounting in the back. Oles unique but most western countries started off typically with forty forty five percent debt to GDP as they to private sector bits on the books explode. European countries typically got up to eighty ninety hundred even one hundred twenty percent debt-to-gdp America similar was always going to be another shock and those countries with those levels of indebtedness added done nothing about the country would say Rising quite rapidly again. We now face a situation where in Great Britain you're going to add another fifteen to twenty percent them to jd. Pay The gates an wartime supposed to be one of the reasons why the ceaseless Houston Which doesn't hasn't stopped forty five continues but we're asking if was what people think cat goes into the debts which we can try to join second. Well what would you could reasonably argue? We're contracted Absolute necessity that our national survival. These continue to high over us as an economy. Well into the nineteen sixties. A people who grew up in the authority Britain of the nineteen fifties on the late night. Remember US Griffey Haas. Hawthorne Rebuilt Country Bad food and poor public services air and all kinds of the other. Things go a that looking back on. It now understands. These were the consequences of the gigantic debts with which we left the Second World War which we eventually paid off dozen is good and the without contracting debts at the same level people. That seem to understand how long it takes to pay this off of. What can what kind of bug is going to be? There is a genuine so the government is could create money at will and I don't think history really supports that Dawson's that'd be one of the great debates comes out of this. I think because it'll be a lot of people particularly yves you lie might be supporters of things. American new green deal. What have you? Let's all have a bicycle. Living Wide New Theory all the rest of it. We can just print money. It's will in history. It's already damaging our economy now. It's opened up the gap between those with assets keeping Chrissy Const on federalists. What for living have you can't accumulate assets most people than your completing the messy currency which might do anything and your savings and your pension's a deeply on safe levels wages. I hear all the time at the men to Britain of actual white cups thing which has not been a feature of life in this country since the nineteen thirties. People have being preached by Have to cut your wages. We can't afford to pay you for this has never happened in my lifetime and against small businesses. I visit particular shop. I used the They pay the rent yesterday to the college which from They rent premises and they have no idea where the next month's rent is is is coming. They have stalk but the analysts no customers all smokers kinds either closed. is limping along without any customers encounter what people think economies get their lifeblood from get it from all the things which the British government is preventing people from today I. It's I often get the impression I live in a country as the Soviet Union was mad a driven by all kinds of strange dogmas but somehow to distract me as I have now to graduate something. That's very you've just commented on the Douglas. Murray I lost him. This question of attracting people of Dig Knowledge of service orientation and cyclists skeptical about these things but I do want to taste them out a little Who might be able to pull us to give up at a time like this as we start to. We already we are. It's it's a very uncertain unconcerned situation. But do you have any thoughts on how we might find as other royal strategy? I do see some very good and capable land and selfless people putting their core up but then I think one of the best of this country said to me at Christmas time when I look at the way in which a couple of mistakes on he was talking about Prime Minister Junior I look at it nothing. Why would you Bala? There's never any forgiveness. No one will forget by tell you do especially. I'm telling you I'm asking you say any hope I know we've talked about this before And if you did wade you say that we can somehow find it within astles to throw up and support assuming we want them. I'm awfully sorry I don't. I wish I could end. It is no pleasure in in this mission side. I looked at the night betsy until I see a society which is out in the cool of tearing south to pieces and the things you mentioned the the the the complete unforgiving nature of politics when someone makes a mistake the the misery Which in decreasing. It was one. You can see why a lot of decent people are going to public because it's candidate you to pieces peppers and private life is destroyed. And what kinds of things happen. Which which must put off anybody worth a combined with the fact that we just don't seem to be our elise institutions no longer to be producing prepared to do the things which I think is sustained Olsen lies in history producing people with the civil courage and the confidence in that that knowledge and Training Lewisham say actually. No Prime Minister The node treasure. This is not necessarily the right policy. We haven't got that So I I just feel better. I suspect a lot of people do and say. Why did you post but how I? I'm not familiar with the system of politics in Australia. I have that in land country but in my own country and here's system the political parties. Choose of those candidates will be selected to stand. It's volunteers. They choose them in quite smoke. Salata influences exercise to make sure that certain people and soon Influences assessment said another on. I know other that neither of the major bodies in the country would ever let me anywhere near safeties button. We'VE BY ANY CHOPS MASH to slip. Toss -fensive submarine net. Got In. I'd be on my own and there's nothing will useless in the world and the lone member of parliament in parliament dominated by with Fox's who can reduce an individual to total insignificance. You might one speeches full minutes in six months. That COMES BACK ON GETTING. You have full to conform to a certain set of ideas in that size is increasingly civil service and public service where the daunted ideology of because diversity is such that anybody questions any of this is simply not recruited it it same. Semitic if it's one thing that's horrendously unsuited to the the the difficult policy choices that will have to might collectively. Women have taught way of finding our way out of this. It's this thing that might be called identity politics in a way. We come together without those with grievances and instead of saying what can we do for a community our country we site where road with Grades Way Nate Shelman to look after its disastrous model in the circumstance. Where actually have any hug yes? It's nicer this issues disastrous. But it's a reasonable response around the people do it. Because they look at the way when he says not nice and they can see if they want to get anything than this is the way to get it and it works. That's why it's it's IT'S A it's not a identity. Politics is a driver of this. Just I think it's a consequences system. That's that's really pretty much. The politics anyone could engage into any sack tied a fractious Azzawi. I did so much. Blame the people who engage in it. I blame the people who created a system in which it is successful ineffective to babe that an unsuccessful ineffective to behave in ways which might be most advice and as part of this told about Dong withstanding of nearly every institution that undergirds wished freedom so unless we gain establish some degree over God on respect for those institutions and that will be to crisis. We have to be willing to respect. The Naidoo will But then I have to be worthy old that respect we saw bright that soccer distrust. And it's going to be extraordinarily difficult because the reality is one of the things happened. Now is the nation's of back nationalisms back even in Italy it wasn't to the Will Health Organization that the Italians wasn't to Brussels despite the common currency insistence that they'd be Ni- borders like tend to their own government and that's being replicated everywhere they're probably imprisonment is what anybody much wanted. I Italian now is as hot breaking vote on the BBC. The other night of Italian food down to their lost small change in their pockets Who's totally on? The country was awful. Lot of small business and people are just haven't got any money left ops weeks and weeks. The being confined to that hymns unable to work unable to trade ladies going broke a what is the effects of this anyway to get back to the Kobe crisis. We have not at any point that I can see established any connection either by correlation. All by let alone by causation. Between these shutdowns is countries which are being engaged in in seventy and seventy places and between any reduction in the number of deaths from the disease. I see no reason looking. One looks at the countries which you've had outbreaks Kevin Nineteen blocks from China's career on Kong seaport Japan United States that in America to the European countries you count see in any of them Which which in any way connects any action by government on any result people? Praise for instance both Hong Kong and Singapore having acted promptly infected in in both in both places the the Cars down after the actions taken but the interesting thing is if you look at the actions in Hong Kong simple they different yet similar result so we have nothing to go on to say that this this will even work on. Its own just goes on question. I guess all the time. There's a fascinating article in tweeting in National Review on April the sixth sweet pointing out that. It's it's the it's the other countries which are engaging in the rash experiment While Sweden is actually behaving as a normal country would be expected to do in the propulsion as a matter well. I think that this wage isn't that I'd have a very strong understanding. That what they call a good society can only continue while you have a strong economy that identify what it is. I think this is a lot of this little reason behind it. I I find. It's it's slightly odd for me. As a as a as a social in northern subject to find myself standing up for basically a social democratic and politically liberal and secular country but nonetheless in this case of Sweden's educated at it seems to me to be being in a more rational tolerant and unwise other than that of my own country and I have to say to come into the pundit autism alluding to remember you'll see your guy and I think the riot Ross nationalism that can be it's well done and there's a degree of solidarity around principles globally nothing to be feed in fact in many ways it can be welcomed on the other hand. It could be very ugly so I'm proud on thinking that America's capacity to lead on my social issues has been anything evident in this crisis. Sadly what it's telling us about this such nationalists thing. I'm not sure whether wants the wants to nineteen dry. Subsided with a really will be a real on recrudescence of national sovereignty. That's a maybe of national sentiment. The two things at different I think some people in looks with a considerable distaste what's going on and the OBAMAS Hungary of used the abuse. The event is an occasion to make further tax on Lucian Navy blue. I countries nuts Some people confuse that with Nationalism I I tend to patriotism nationals myself anyway. I think the the the huge power of international organizations under international regulation and of International Trade will continue Entirely convinced that the this is going to change the United States is under very police ship and has been for some time and there isn't any argument that whether under a different president things would be any better. I'm not sure but that's just a fact in the United States is no never will be against as strong as was the floor of the great folly of the Iraq which I think was real which is national decline in really serious fashion of this is just a fact of life which those of us who who grew up with the United States bright stars go selection of of international town have got to get used to the United States is not what it was economically politically or indeed any other way and a as a result of his other dacas. Dawes begins to To donate the heavens and we will. The China may become increasingly. Don't which was converted to Kim sufficient while they as one of the aspects of this. Is that as we contemplate moving ahead when this is one of the things many nations. We'll be asking hot questions out at comes. Dependent upon eighty ninety cents in Australia's Christ America's respectively pharmaceuticals on China founded Outside we have to set these things up here. We've got to be able to produce. Maas we have to reduce risk Oxygen Machines and what have you. I'll think it will on running this. Buying set. Some limits on globalization on Roy's made in very much in favour wrapping up trying always believed that it builds understanding we always hoped that it'd be like as China advance liberal passing so you advances in its politics towards more democratic site. That hasn't happened. Let Zion. I think it's a very interesting question. Would require a lot of deafness. I think asus about yes. Well maybe I think that I think the real problem I is is always people will will take the trade policies which suited them at the time. When Britain was taught nation industrial honesty? Paphos was Favored free trade. Things got less successful less Australia I think has never been a major manufacturing in his has to have a different attitude to trade for one which which has been But I I can't see how the the the levels of global trade which have been established in the as what you might cool the Deng Xiaoping era Can now be going back upon a very easily. I didn't see any sign of any great national political. National sovereignty is increasing extremely difficult to exercise and often those countries which do exercise have sanctions and other things this gentleman. I want one country which would love. I think if it were allowed to be to be part of the international system the because it isn't the moment this uses sovereigntists position is Russia and Russia and Iran AH countries which Which calls the sanctions isolation and an impression of of the diplomatic and and Military type to be because they stand outside the the globalists' system and I didn't see any side about ending. Isla once this oldest subsided and the dresses is over. Will we again find ourselves within terrifying tensions in the Middle East between Iran Saudi Arabia? Which still seem to need to be in grave danger exploding into very very least the original war and perhaps one much widely not because of the the the way in which Iran Saudi Arabia have strong allies in elsewhere in the woods. I remain very frightened by that. Prospect will require extraordinary ladyship but to come back to you like guiding principles. One of Spain's saved a lot. More strident at the moment is a rating blew our relevant. We have to get through this together and I understand that that's important but you know we have normally normally conservative government. America doesn't surprise you could size wealth Does on and yet now Seeing these command economy these massive massive intervention in our lives winding. That back seems to me to be very important. It's GonNa be very difficult but it needs to be subject to some principals it saves. May that the the great strands of Western thinking of Lasi out mets. Lift a Swiss at Hawkesbury and with a great deal managerial. That isn't going to be enough. We'll have to have people who can articulate a vision. What sort of countries People we want to live in and how the global load of might work any thoughts on the sorts of Principles. That should under good thinking as we go forward. I'd say to me that principals matter is what I'm saying we we just think we're going to manage out way out of this. We got to get the one thing that I concluded of Living Abreu. It's slow several years and then travelling to live. I lost counted up as fifty seven countries. Sandwich exists was that the absolute basis that civilization is the rule of law bind with. Liberty. These are actually the principles of the government which I fundamentally scrounging Newell Lucy at the rest of it is stretching. Live and the problem with both of these things isn't they? Don't exist. Grow naturally grown touch consultation under security conditions and I think these conditions are rapidly cease to exist and one one of the things which allowed the particular full of Lohan Literacy which will country on mine have until recently enjoyed a was the the long period of islands government in the in the British isles particularly inning which allowed for a development and institutions of habits of a respect for which if you look at areas the world such as the Balkans which in many ways culturally and and many other important areas of great human development. They've never been able to develop these modest institutions and habits which we have because of the constant interruption of war and invasion which they suffer and now we have a different form of of invasion in in full of globalist tonight pressure which makes it harder and harder for these basic principles. And I I feel for it. I I think that whatever I examined any seems outcomes a stock. How will this fact of the fundamental principles of those little humanity which seem to me basis assume is society now almost invariably the ulcers badly? I think this is another example of it. I part of the reason for that is because Lewis Riggs inexistent Hans Tree people if they themselves out what he to defend it when it's attack con long survive and if you have a people which actually believes that it's it's the becomes a. I think this this alleged condominium has alleged because I think we may possibly restaurateurs has created fear fear in which people will repose all that in the State and in power as because when you do that pound along really needs to lure does it. Knowing really needs to be about the concession people power becomes a a a straight food crude hubs in Bahgat we protect you from the terror with that and you give me freedom to us and this is what this is. What's really frightening under? I mean I'm scared. The economic consequences of this unscheduled social consequences. But really really beyond that. I think the education that I've had in the past few weeks trying to stand for free. Debate and discussion has given me a really really quite worrying lesson. In how much less freedom I? Anybody else has Ten years ago in this country than any Western country governed by the middle of it. I haven't potty because I've exercised Great Elephants Providence. Which I won't go into here which was allowed to exercise it but the truth is that it's much more circumscribed My Life. It's a very profound thing to site. One of the American fell Father Founding Sakani which one commented that anyone who lab FIA to a compromise freedoms was William. Nato I think Benjamin Franklin Second pledged temporary security deserve neither. Yeah you're the sort of wish to ideal for you seems to give him. Why the rights? That discrimination law machinery everywhere sets off a system of competing rights instead of writing freedom practicing freedom wanting to advance it that might not be fully enjoying. That was what not Lizard King. Us buys was trying to do so. I have some people even awfully enjoying the freedoms that they will be entitled to as American. What donald she writes right seemed to me to be granted by the that for the whole the whole theory of rights seems based on the idea that we don't have any of these things unless government groups whereas the English Principles I understood was always. That man was free unless he was contrived by by laws which had themselves be nine by repugnant. And the the the idea that government granted certain rights at the moment the government. Grunts me under certain conditions limited. My her I'm allowed to do certain only if I have reasonable excuse to leave my home where I am in in England where I think the jurists of the the seventeenth nineteenth centuries crime that teeth if they saw this going on that is my current legal. Fortunately where I live. It's not too officiously enforced but there are other places where it's Where it is a police force is actively encouraged people to inform on the neighbors they go out to notch. I this this is actually Abbott. I'd imagine it but it is so I I'm freedom. Kennel be express rationed in in rights. Freedom exists and you grant government sudden opposed to limited by law. You hope of course in a in a in a pro property goes to Saudi. Most human behavior should be governed festival conscious of the law should any into the in as a last resort so whole whole lexicon of rights seems to me and acceptance by. Shankill seems to me to be a mistake. I it's it's unfortunate that the great documents of of modern Western treason Philip Rights in the United States. The one hundred years earlier of England a cold bills rights rather than those freedoms. Because that's what actually. Aw I know the Show. The bill writes Dotted English Lords. What it actually says. This is what the government cannot do we. The people can't do. This is what the government cannot do. Those are the those are the anything's having is housing. I took cook very well but not bill of rights. It's been contentious. They're Nice Walter. But we don't have we really do it. Heated the the model at least in theory that this is prescribed. You are free to do it about what has happened in this country is we've now had either fifty years all Moore more and more anti discrimination legislation setup supposedly secure people's rights but then. I end up being classy rights and machinery has done nothing to stop in Aden. Aden a bit. The price of unquestioned wanting down of social capital all increased loneliness of action all anxiety. Depression self harm is not a happy story. We'd be cheering freedom. I would have thought but show and yet. It was done in many cases with the best intentions. People who did it didn't set out to achieve on that. That's been run. The difficulties inaugural against I think some of the initial for the the the the early race relations is in. I find it impossible. Although the seems to me to be sort of breach of principle in both I find it impossible to opposed because of the horrible things which were being done before they existed which they prevented the difficulty is can you limit that's legislation or does it go too far that ultimately is is a problem for for the individual humans involved in coming. Were catching have. Make gone to find these ways. But I I do like very much to start on the assumption that my opponent's have good intentions. I ask the same in the interesting thing is is getting. I'm assumed to be acting of marital mischief Good intentions. That's another part of the the gradual darkening freedom in my country while it says Johnson High Absurd again to make your point to bat at discrimination often with the best intentions. We've actually raised at children belabored. Lots is a battle between good people and bad table which tends to play into the hands by politics which tends to undermine the idea that you've got to find you. I food collectively site. The rule of law is is something that unifies because respect all with King must respect the president's business perspective King. I'm it's just. It's such a crucial principle guide. You why do power has something overarching which controls it is so crucial addition or a limits on? And when you see it happen when you see a cooled stripe down. Its Radical Act by government and the government as the court. It is so moving it happens. Any such thing would be celebrating without pay these very very uncertain times It's hard to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel and get hype Springs Tunnel and I love a strategy daily. I want to see A. It's best dies somehow still being in the front office. But it's not gonNA happen recounts cluster around key issues Principals as you've just put it and I do thank you very much for your time. I'm always intrigued by people. When we've had conversations he'd come up to me in the street and I Peter Confront me with reality and found that very valuable. You've done it again. Do not they do not thank you very much. But it's kind of you. We conclude with Cromwell made to some particularly obstreperous sponge dogmatic puritans gentlemen and this is I address this to my opponents in the argument about how we treat. Karenna Vars gentlemen I beseech she in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be sticking of course the PRI- Rosa Crumble is quite mild language after ten. Let's question pride is that we need to be humble enough to admit that the other person's arguments should be hood ever. I found the best way. And have people own that whites Lord Joe? You've been listening to John. Anderson direct for further content. Visit John Anderson Dot net dot Edu.

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John Anderson Direct: With Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Professor of Medicine at Stanford University

John Anderson: Conversations

32:41 min | 9 months ago

John Anderson Direct: With Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Professor of Medicine at Stanford University

"You're listening to John Anderson direct with Jay at the charter. These notes that John Anderson Direct is recorded live by our online streaming, which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimal. Jerry Better Jara. Is a professor of medicine at Stanford. University. He's research focuses on the economics of healthcare around the world. With a particular emphasis on the health and wellbeing of vulnerable populations. He, became a will non commentator on covid nineteen when Ikbal this year he showed that the vars is foulis deadly than the world. Health Organization initially stated. Giant. I'm really thankful for your time today. It's very good view. The US. Currently as I understand, it has a little I have a five million confirmed cases of COVID nineteen. Record something like one hundred and sixty, five, thousand deaths. It's emotionally and politically charged to the extent that I think it's hard to get a real handle on what's happening and what ought to be done now can you give us a feel for what is happening? In America. And why so hard To get the facts on the title. It says you said politically charged in a that I in my lifetime never seen a medical issue before and the other thing that's challenging the United States it's and we talk about the United States as a country. But in fact, it's it's lots of different regions that are experiencing the epidemic very, very differently. So creating a single national policies, a very challenging thing I suspect similar similars same as turned Australia's well, it's it's very. So it's it's a card, some parts of the country like New York New Jersey. In the northeast had their bit with the a massive pain of the epidemic in March April and they look like come out the other side that very few cases and very few deaths there. Now, the the South Sun belt up seems to have gone up now are starting to get on the other side have been through a very rough last few months, and then the rest countries waiting nervously to see what happens next cases of finally start to come down after a after the after the rise the it's that it's not one. Country it's multiple regions I think that is politically incredibly challenging. And you've been responsible for putting some very hard numbers on the table. As I understand it the World Health Organization initially estimated that. Around three percent of the people who contacted the covid nineteen would die. You put very different numbers on the table more. I think in line of one or two thousand. was proven so difficult to get a real handle. On the mall the Taliban right Of this disease I mean it's it's a it's a question was visible and what's what's not visible at hard to see in how to move forward it's very easy to see people who identifies having covid the test positive, but fashion of them die. and. That's what they were reporting that three point four percent that set of people in the early days who were identified as having cogut three point, three percent of those died and that's That's just a a undeniable fact. You look get the number you look at the people who died and say why this is going to be a terrible epidemic and it has. It's true. DENIC. But not as terrible as a three point, four percent epidemic would would be. in particular what's we found out since the the the those early days January-march is that in fact, it's the disease watch more widespread than you expect that we know this from studies from around the world is not fifty or more studies around the world started lose track of how many 'cause they calcium story. People spread the disease and but half of them somewhere on that order don't actually get Bernie symptoms. They don't show up for testing because they don't think they're sick. They have antibody evidence of having the disease. And so when antibody studies are done they are they in the United States for instance, CDC to study found the ten times more cases, and about ten times more people had antibody evidence than the cases. So you started five million. I. Mean I think it's probably more on the orders fifty to seventy five million have already got got a cove in the United States that sounds really alarming. I thought study on in Poona India fifty seven percent or fifteen percent very, very, very high rate of a of COVID. Words, the cases would indicate US very small fraction. There's an invisible epidemic going on at the same time as visible. And invisible epidemic is much less severe than divisible. One that that that's that's a really important fact which is like we're all of our policies focused on visible epidemic at our fear is based on the statistics that comes out of visible epidemic. But in fact, if you want the whole picture, how really deadly is to me want to take into account the invisible identified as well. As I do Oscar Lemus Christian. You said it was a terrible thing that the number might be my time. Couldn't it also be a good thing that it points the way to hood immunity is that a possibility is that something that might be the other side of the coin? Yeah. It certainly is a possibility I mean I think Some sense That also is politically charged hurt. Her immunity means what hurt him meetings that enough people have got the disease that if an additional person gets it, they will infect only one at one other person they wanted to with three. You'll get an exponential growth by so that so that there's a lot of controversy in the literature over by Samsung Scientists. What that that number actually is, is it eighty percent of the population that twenty percent I've seen credible reports on both? So that that the larger number in some sense is actually. means. We're much further along the up endemic and you might expect that's that is a good thing. Absolutely also needs more people. Got It. which is happening. It's it's it's it's both at the same time. It's also means that it's less deadly than the three point four percent it's much more on the order of one. To say two to three, hundred thousand and for children and for young people, it's even lower than that. In fact for children. Now, I was looking to numbers for the flu. The flu kills more kids than the United States I then than Kobe has. The Season Yeah well that the the age difference is important while lot come back to in a moment with some interesting work was being done in Australia, but firstly, just on this how bad easier I think back in April you said it might be not much worse than nasty bouts of flu or flu epidemics broadly speaking is that studio view I think it's a revised my since April it's a little. It's worse than the absolutely worse with maybe two to three times worse than the flu I think it could be it could be more times worse than. What your view of the fluids fluids, self as a nasty disease. If we didn't have back scenes be facing this every season. So I got a I don't want to play it by saying it's like. Think the internal policies as well. This is much worse than the absolutely it also has different patterns age patterns really important here because it doesn't spread the way the flu dust children aren't aren't as as important to the spread of disease as as it is for the flu and the diseases less deadly for the flu for young people and more deadly from that's for very for older people. At this is you know we keep. Learning more. I from my point of view I was quite a strongly of the view that we will overreacting earlier on on I'll admit that that one of the things it's temperament on that I think in this country, the research shows that younger people are actually more wired about the disease, an older people even though they listened likely to get it but there's another factor, and then that is that he can permanently damage the. Of Victims as I understand of you're a young person, you might be worried about dying, but you'd have a very legitimate concern about permanent damage to your body. Might high out horribly the rest of your life. Let's something identity got. It earlier on I mean I think that's true for many viral conditions that are are are bad I mean. So you for the flu, for instance, are neurologically that important even hearts equality. We're seeing some of that and Kobe the question is how frequent is that? I think once you account for the fact that is invisible epidemic we're talking about with so many people already it's. It's it's likely going to be clinically important thing to think about, but it's it's not a is not as common as you'd think for reading press about it I mean it's it's the I still think it is I mean serious condition we should think about carefully but we live our lives with lots of streets conditions that we think about carefully instill in yet still we live our lives I think the to me. I'm health John I always think about trade offs and the question is what is a trade off year if we if we sh shut down our, allies For an extended period of time, what will we get from it? What will we lose from it? and. That to me is the key policy question. Right if we think about shutting down our lives for for a long time, we get unemployment we get we get poverty especially core people getting hurt we get depression we get suicides we get. Out Long run health effects of of of the lockdowns on the one side versus the the avoided cases from the up from Kobe nineteen on the right. That's benefit Is it worth it while the questions, can we expect the lockdown to permanently address cove it? Masters No. I we have not ever obscured or eliminated a disease with Lakhta. US Zuma's just discovered that. Indeed. It has. I mean it's unfortunate but it's it's up I mean New Zealand of course isn't it is in some sense unique places in island five, million people you can actually maybe if you could work anywhere would work there. I basically they stamped out the disease thought and and yet it's popped back up I think I was seeing like seventy, one, hundred cases already and just as week it's an incredibly infectious disease hard to stamp out up and you can't isolate yourself from the world for hours. And yes. So you rise, I think the really important point. That there are trade-offs and we're going to have to make informed decisions on very wide in my own country. We liked the united sites. Federation. So many of the sites here imposed incredibly severe boundary restrictions border restrictions. But, the premiums and the state governments. The political cost of ice top, the seasons which are very popular. The Commonwealth does because the Commonwealth providing the financial support for people who are out of work looking for work in these very difficult circumstances. So at vast cost to the next generation Waikiki, our economy going. and but the damage is being exacerbated by the lockdowns. And this leads us back to the whole crippling wisdom problem if I can put it that way of no longer being able to have rational bites about trade offs. And I'm wondering just how much economic and social damage we're going to do if we can't advance this device and yet on the other hand of it's not conducted rationally and. Sensible precautions not type and you got the sort of problems in areas that you've seen in. America. I mean that's what I'm really afraid of is up. I. Mean we premised our policies on this. I think false idea that somehow. We can just go back to a time before the disease was here. And eliminate the disease that that is not true. It's not possible. We have to accept reality and say okay how can we learn to live with this disease? And this update damage and the cost of the lockdowns shouldn't be more than the cost of the disease I. It's hard because pointed out in sterling context to everywhere of the cost of lockdowns our fallen different set of people than the people who've. Disease. You're choices between lives and lives lies on one side lies on the other side issue is that The lockdown is going to impose costs on different people than the than the Kovic well I and it's not simply dollars. I mean unemployment of courses is bad as dollars but also lies right. So suicides on. Unemployment itself and Economic damage itself. Itself poses cost on health and we know that it's long term costs life expectancy goes up with with rising income I was looking at the the IMF forecast for for for Australia and it says, it says right now it's four and a half percent reduction in court. GDP just for this year. And, that's before the most recent shutdown. Who exactly? Will be more on that as a former legislator and somebody who is at the heart of an economically reformist government that. Upset many times and for some people will ride incite, stop telling us but we actually eliminated all Commonwealth deb Nostra a now we're full day back into serious debt and our children are going to inherit that and it will impact on they lies but but just on the. Economic Costs. And I must want I'm very critical of some of the media who all for lockdowns, the site people's lives and sets important but it can be. Very, emotionally lot sired or lopsided in terms of the emotions of that feeling vice of as reporting Bicester is modelling conducted via Sydney University's Brian Mind Center, and backed on Talbot Strenuous Medical Association says that the annual right of suicide in this country can rise from an already pretty staggering free thousand. A country like strident. already three to four and a half thousand, another one and a half thousand. Suicides and youth suicides would make up half bat increase. It's a very powerful pointed to some of the human naughty economic costs always lockdowns at a not being taken into account. John that has been very very worried of the suicide cells but also even more broadly we're we're taking we're asking our youth to pay the cost of I mean that's pays its costumes while you're delayed schooling up essentially. Schooling online instead of in person we have Young people are meant to be in company with one another we're not meant to be alone It's extremely costly offer social development, one of you. To have that in those young people that are paying those costs. It's I mean, it's fine for me. I can sit in my my nice office and talk with zoo and keep doing my job. That's fine. But that's also poor people that are paying the cost people can't afford to do to do what I'm doing. I think the the unequal distribution of this is absolutely devastated it's it's it's poor people young people that are paying the cost of the lockdown and and. They're not the ones that benefit because they are experienced the damage. Cohen are much lower rates. That is the poor the young people. On this leads into another concern, I have about what's happening in the wish with our atomization fracturing of society. Where United Fewer for Mas you'd say we will send to be at war with one another. You know. Gender Lonzo. Rice divisions. And what have you but now? Heating up into generational battle as well on I think that is really troubling. The lump reality is that even when this is over with found some accommodation pretend to some degree of normality assuming we do the debt hangover will four unbelievably on the shoulders of young people and I find deeply disturbing they will be very resentful. And many older people will not only be probably insured but the in following on the patent sense, the great financial causes their assets seem to go up in value I become wealthier and younger people locked out of opportunity locked out of the to advance the housing interest and they live. So I don't think enough account is being taken of these things. I with you John I. Mean the United States I think we're at. Twenty seven trillion dollars in debt and counting There's debate over how big the next list pack is going to be where does that money come from? Doesn't it's going to require it'll come from young fifty off to pay for it for some. Sometimes, it's going to come from my kids that's GonNa come from the young generation who will have that debt hanging over for the rest of their lots Is it worth it? I. Mean. That's that's the thing we have to wait. We almost have asked that question we just said we have this cova disaster. Let's pay any cost whatsoever to get out of it. But. But it's not as you said, it's not just economic cost the social cost and even the cost of lives as we've in the Sydney University study suggests maybe far higher than the actual disease imposes on us and it's not being reported people not having this information put before them. So many many puzzle listen to this and us with sort of questions that arise out. I think it's You know if you WANNA make rational policy, you need to have projections. So this is inevitable and we've seen our Phil Disease. Projections. I mean, they're all your everyone. Everyone is talking about what? What, what will the track of Cove it looked like if we lockdown down if we don't lockdown what are these epidemiological models say just completely reasonable, you ought to have them. But at the same time side-by-side when you're making decisions about what about policy you WanNa look at the both the benefits and the costs we should be have we should have. Projections about the the lies that'll be that the cost of these lockdowns, but the cost lies lockdowns. Will Be. What would know how cost suicide rates unemployment how many people will lose their jobs and thus be does not develop experience so they can at their human capital they can. They can constructively engage with labor market later. And we know all that kills as well. Right it's not. It's not simply COSTLO's lose money I I go on with my life If you if you cut down ruling lower well less well educated populace will be less healthy ten years from now. So I think it's it's a and you can say these are uncertain. That's true. They're uncertain. That's why we have models to try to address that uncertainty as best we can. But at a disease models, themselves are uncertain. They haven't done a very good job either and tracking diseases probably know. Projecting Z. so it's it's it's a it's uncertain both sides. It's not an excuse not to consider all the cost and the benefits together when you making decisions policy. Do you feel we can do better? How do we do better at engaging people in a real debate about the trade offs and the need to make more rational decisions? Because we're not very good at it, and now in our cultures we were wants, but we're not now how happened we? Have can we get better divide around this? So we get better policies for the sake of the children in particular. John I think I think part of it is we have to address our fear I first and foremost I mean I think that more than anything else has driven the division over Colin Policy. Abject fear what the disease is. It's it's it's it's a deadly disease. One should be concerned but she one. Put aside ones rational faculties in order to in order. Just because of that fear, it makes no sense. Let's look at the let's look and see how deadly is it. Let's actually consider all the costs and benefits. I, I, think we have to get back to that kind of thinking that there are trade-offs we can't live in a utopian world where we can pretend that the virus will somehow disappear from just shut down hard enough. We just pay pain cost it'll it'll go away I mean that's not feasible. I think that kind of reality I'm actually in some sense, John? I'm Kinda hopeful I. Think I'm starting to see some sense that look we we have to think about the cost I I saw just yesterday I saw a story that apparently in South Korea was a massive protest over the very severe lockdown patch were very, very long time. People around the world of fueling these costs. Really, feeling them and again, it's not just to their pocket. Awesome. Is there entire lies like what's the purpose of our lives if not to live them and. I think that kind of thinking will will start I will start to take over because it's too real. John You can't. You can't just pretend like it's gonNA. Just end. When will it end? and. You know we hope for vaccine I hope for vaccine. But do we really premise all of our all of our livelihood on the on the weather vaccine can be. Produced. In absolute record amount of time. I mean it's it's it's I mean we should invest in it. She do the science rapidly decaying make sure that the that the data auditor clear so that we understand you feel vaccines use it safe, but she'll be better entire society that one outcome seems like an unwise bet. It does very interested in your professional opinion on the chances of US having something. reasonable. Body, into next year because here in Australia, the experts said look we might have something that causes the optimistic but I don't believe it would be available in any significant numbers until the end of next to you. That's why. The US what it's done is it's made a bet. So at we've we decided to purchase large quantities of vaccine candidates. That have not undergone phase three trials yet we have not gone safety and efficacy testing large-scale. Up If those trials show that the drug that the vaccine is not safe effective that that. if they show that there are effective or safe will then now will be have have a large number of doses to deploy very very quickly The the thing that scene trials is. You have to have sufficient numbers of people, employing them at scale. The. Entire population you expect to have the vaccine, right? any drug you give the entire population you see some funny side Effects Year or some interactions there you wanna sufficiently large database of having tested it to tell the population honestly the yet safe for you. No matter who you are. Will we have enough experience with the vaccines to convince enough of the population take it. Safely in time even if we have enough dosage, that's that's the thing I'm wondering about I don't know I mean I'm I'm more optimistic. more wasn't April. But. I have to say I don't I don't WanNa bet aren't higher society on that I think I. think that's bad bet. Which countries do you think of Madison Beta the knowledge on very conscious that. We are very obsessed with what's happening in. Iran. Countries in the West. And particularly in this country, Massey coverage often driven by the political districts for that elaborating point for the current president you know. This trump man. Delusion or syndrome. Just paper lose their rationality so he's saying to mishandled. Side there's massive sort of talk about hats mechat. America's handled it, but putting that aside and you'll view. Who has handed perhaps wisely, and in a way that might be seen to obtain more effective. In retrospect. I mean to ask that question the long run we're not in the long run. That's yet. Tell you the thing that metric that I look forward to see whether a country's high handling. Well, it's actually very simple number. We we know with certainty who vulnerable. Older people, especially older people living in nursing homes and other environments where they're they're closed in. Our countries handle, it well managed to protect those populations. And countries that haven't managed to well that you've seen or or states that haven't managed it well, that population has suffered severely. That's particular case in New Yorkers I understand it to take a pot of one country in New York but his true around the United States I think we have not handled as well as my stations on better than others admittedly. We have not handled at have not protected our nursing population as well as might have. I, think in the or Sweden versus someone's held up as a successful example I think any early deputy they actually saw some spread in nursing homes that the testing might have been avoidable. They corrected course I think afterwards. So I think in the long run when you're judging weather, our country's done while i. think that's because you have to judge based on what information you have at the time. We knew that that this that that the elderly were vulnerable in March, we saw that in the Chinese data particularly vulnerable. And we knew that the the disease spreads in tightly closed environments in the policy in March was let's protect our hospitals. We're looking at Italy and thinking oh my gosh that hospitals are overrun there. I think the United States is a fantastic job protecting hospitals to the point where hospitals were empty for months. So many of them going near bankruptcy. And we've forgot about the nursing homes. Those months so I think. There's both. The, successes and failures. It's relative to what you know the time in retrospect. That's where I'm going to judge is how well did we actually take advantage of the information? We'd have the key piece of information who's honorable I think. In many in many ways a mean most countries in many countries. Australia's done well as far courses. How will do going forward if you look at statistics. It is skewed toward the older population where the deaths are the number of desk. But but you all are not in the long run for the in the intermediate. So the question is, how will you protect? Learn. The lessons from world around you. To protect the nursing and then. Imposed fewer costs on everyone else warrant really at high risk from this from this disease. Right. So that's the other thing I'll look at how you're looking at Tutton suicides before I'm GonNa look at those numbers i WanNa know how many? Mental health problems he'd be causes resulted lockdowns. How type of do the tight lockdowns affect the poor differentially do their their kids not being not not to the gap between poor and rich in educational outcomes expand as a result of the lockdowns I to look at those kind of those are numbers. Also, we know those are scientific facts we knew in March along before March. So I think. It's hard to do an assessment on the fly, and obviously, as you said, people are People's minds are distorted by the political. Races that are happening in front of them. Really. If you WANNA do a clean assessment of the at the end of the day, it's it's what do we know? How well do we act on information now? The new. I think one of the problems is that people obeying? Lulled into a sense that. Governments can solve these problems. Now I'll be Johnston how will they do regardless of how much Mari, money I'd Borrow Orange Day effectively print and there's an assumption particularly much many young will become disillusioned with democratic capitalism. That the sort of control good, you've just gotTa, get the control settings right. On not certain that win all. Seriously damaging our understanding of personal freedom and personal responsibility, which may be very damaging politically in the long term. Even to the extent that people think well, that doesn't matter just print more money it's not true. He doesn't happen money that's not backed by real wealth in the in the real creation of wealth is false money and when confidence in it is lost as we know, the desert results can be disastrous. His tells us that we are on I. Think. A very, very dangerous precipice with all of this, we need to be very careful indeed. And I think what I'm getting I was I just wonder whether we got the collective will find out the sit down properly and analyze will was calmly learn the lessons and sober up. Rather. Than Lurch into even more silly political decisions for the down the ride and I don't want to buy the US election I'd love to in other contexts but I'm going to ask you to do that but you can see an awful lot of emotion and an awful of feeling. And if I can say, so somebody just looking for me outside not a lot of highly sought through rational discussion it bodes very ill for future policy in my view. Now I share your concern I think A. Democratic capitalism has yielded enormous benefits. Obviously the would also developing youngest statistic of a billion. People lifted out of poverty in the last. Ten twenty years. Around the world. And I think our. Our understanding the importance of that has has shrunk in ways that has astonished. and you know you said something really interesting I think is really right out. We have this sense that somehow we are in a position that we have this knowledge. The government has this knowledge. You can just do the calculations you run the model and you figured out how to make the economy go out of the covert Galway we can solve it. If one thing that comes out of this course, I hope is that we we lose that faith world is a complicated place and the reason why democratic capitalism works is because it lets the distributed knowledge of billions of people have their say. You try to centralize all incision place. You'RE GONNA YOU'RE GONNA make mistakes and we've learned that lesson the hard way over and over again I hope we don't have to learn our way again. May. I'm tend to be optimistic by nature. So I'm hopeful that people come out of this crisis instead of guy you know. These these computer models really didn't do west do a very good job for us. And I agree with you about the debt I agree with you about the about the. Problems were basically imposing on on on younger populations, go pace for generations to come The the borrowing is beyond my experience I I would've thought it that that we will pay the price already now at. Three trillion dollars four trillion dollars later in only a few months. I mean I don't see how is camping paid. There's always trade-offs. Yeah. Well. To get back to your opening remarks. Agneta under former US president. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself will see is an emotion that always clouds clear thinking and the need to move ahead in a way that is going to maximize the opportunities into the future and I think your contribution to it. If I can say in conclusion on thanks is in New Orleans and I just hope by. The including my country that many people what you have to. And antic- heat over. Your champion of thank you John, appreciate I'm honored beyond to be able to talk with you. Thank you very much indeed. You've been listening to John Anderson Direct for further content visit, John Anderson, dot net dot a U.

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John Anderson Direct: With Coleman Hughes, Writer and Podcast Host

John Anderson: Conversations

48:14 min | 10 months ago

John Anderson Direct: With Coleman Hughes, Writer and Podcast Host

"This is John Anderson direct with Coleman Hughes, please note the John Anderson Direct is recorded live via online streaming, which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum. Coleman, who's it's incredibly good of you to join us on a very sensitive been credibly important topic, black lives matters. You've recently here. You're jazz musician. No well established public intellectual in America you've written for the New York Times itself a very interesting. Entity these days you written for the Wall Street Journal for Quillet. You host your own podcasts. And I'd have to say your very brave and committed a data and rational argument. So. Thank you a gain for your time? We hear this term. Systemic racism bandied around a great deal now. What I'd like to do. That is to take a helicopter view all. If you like? The whole issue of racism as a horrific. Blight really on human nature, and then look at the way in which it's played up. The reality is that. The cruelty and the dreadful thing called slavery has. been a constant battle throughout human history. And when you stop and think of just how ugly the African slave trade walls! You can see the origins of some of the terrible tensions in America. That was systemic racism. That was the idea that one man could bind sill, another man or women and children, as they were goods and chattels. Gradually in particular America in Britain had with very courageous leadership from paper lot wilberforce himself Oh. That was wound back. On the tried itself was abolished and then slavery in the from. Seven hundred, thirty, three, then in America. You had a terrible civil war forever, nonetheless systemic racism. Mud vayne ended in the sense of slavery was stalled, but what happened than some America was appalling right until the civil rights movement of the nineteen sixties to what extent? Is Systemic Racism. A realistic term that means anything today. So yes systemic racism. Is a term. That is very confusing. And I'm I'm not sure it's necessarily. Uh. It's a term that comes. That didn't exist before nineteen sixty seven. When the Book Black Power was written by stokely Carmichael and Charles Hamilton. And they came up with this distinction between institutional racism as they called it then and individual racism individual racism is It pertains to some something some stuff. You just alluded to know a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Lynching a black person as happened? Frequently in the south around the turn of the century. That's. That's what they call individual racism, but they wanted to carve out. A A kind of racism. That was more subtle. That was less violent. that. Things like a real estate agent steering perspective homeowner into a black neighborhood. Rather than a white neighborhood or a a banker would only lend to Weitz rather than blacks. That's what they men in nineteen sixty seven one day. coined the term institutional racism. So on that definition, institutional racism still exists and. It. Should absolutely be opposed. In the strongest possible terms with antidiscrimination law and cultural norms. At the same time I think there's less of it now than there ever has been in American history. So. You know and the other part of this. Is that the word that phrase gets used? In different ways, so a Lotta Times what people mean by systemic racism nowadays is not what. What they meant fifty years ago? which is just kind of subtle racial bias that is? Less than violent, but still important. A lot of people mean by now is. Any any kind of departure from statistical equality in terms of income wealth incarceration. And, so forth so anything not if in America black people are fourteen percent of the population. But less than fourteen percent of some desirable secular society. That people call that gap systemic racism. That's A. Very naive notion because it doesn't take into account, all of the many ways in which. Different groups of people are different like have different levels of have different levels of education. Live in different parts of the country different cultures. And you know to expect this kind of perfectly equal world. Measured by group averages I think is naive and dangerous, but that's part of what people need my systemic racism today. A If I understand you correctly I, think we're on the same page. He the systemic racism. Might be useful if you would to say. Pose? The question the laws of the land in themselves racially discriminatory. As I were applying the when slavery was allowed full when it was impossible for people in the south to vote faily in elections as recently as the ninety sixties design the standard. It could be very difficult to get a license divide. So there's that sort of institutionalized racism. And then there's the it has its origins of course in the attitudes of the half I can put it that way. The White Paper regard one another always been astounded at capacity for hatred. And not always between racial verticals, just the ability of one human being. To be dehumanized another human being. Is An astonishing and a terrible thing it comes from the HA I would assume rather than from the lure of the land on the if you like the legal Saddam and it seems a tremendous progress is being made. Nobody would deny that racism in terms of people's attitudes to exist and will exists wall, ever human beings. I file of you like. To be sincerely thoughtful and reasonable offer human beings. Yeah I like that distinction you make. It's very helpful. So legalized racism ended in roughly nineteen, sixty seven. You could quibble about the day, but. Within a decade of of the late sixties. Legally sanctioned really that is racist. Laws cease to exist. And, what we're left with is what. SYSTEMIC RACISM! Meant when when the coin was. The term was coined which. Is really more accurately put as? As you sort of racism of the hearts or of the mind, or of the even barely conscious variety that many people have varying degrees, not just white people of course black people to. and that's. A harder. Target, to, actually reform. because. You can't legislate if a COP is. Is has a racial bias against black people and is more likely to be suspicious of a black person than a white person in a similar circumstance. That's a much harder thing to regulate away than. A. A outright racist law preventing black people from voting. So we had a massive change in this country in the late sixties, which is that? The the fight, the fight, which was previously previously thought to be unwinnable was one. Black people you know had equal rights under the law could vote. And so on and so forth have the right to housing. But we're we're still left with. The reality of racial bias, and as as you said I'm no racial biases, just one species of human cruelty. Of, it's always worth remembering that the the the racial slavery system in America grew out of the system of indentured servitude. That's colorblind, but that disproportionately. impacted White Europeans at first in the seventeenth century, there was very little slavery of Africans in America. It was always a lot of indentured servitude of other Europeans. And it was you know? If, obviously didn't let it was not a life sentence, but it was equally cruel and system of racial slavery evolved gradually out out of that. so yes. That cruelty has has ended and as well as legalized racism, but we are left with this more subtle kind of racial bias. And there's two attitudes can take to at least two. One is. To. Look forward to a world in which there is. Literally no racial bias whatsoever. and. To try to get to that world at. At any cost, no matter. How CONAN you have to be electrically. Or to understand that. There are trade-offs involved that. Just like we'll never get to society zero murder. We'll never get to to a society two zero racial bias because we are built slot. And just like you know what it would take to get the murder to absolute zero would be a kind of dystopia police state nightmare. That wouldn't be worth the trade off. The effort to get to society completely devoid of the last vestiges of mental racism may also involve trade offs that are not worth it. So. There has to be a conversation. Between different factions of society that are. No seeking to on the one hand to reduce to reduce racial bias and seeking on the other hand, not to infringe on people's personal liberties not to. sick. You know not to start witch-hunts people not to get people fired for false instances of racism not to define racism so widely so that. Any opinion that you don't like falls in that category, so there has to be that. Back and forth. Said something that I think incredibly important. used the term with built floor. That's acknowledgement. That that eighteen needs to take on board, we are all capable of doing the wrong thing. We're all capable of behaving nobly, and if you get back to the Anti Slavery Movement just for a moment. Think of a man like John Newton. Who wrote the still my sung, him. Diaa gather amazing grace. Hey was a dreadful pace. Engaged in the brutality of the slide, tried he himself, and he's on. Dar Es recorded. Just how polling he behind now I had a dramatic conversion experience and became an incredible anti slavery campaigner. He switched as a flawed human being from docker. Angels resigned to the better and became a great campaign of a good twist, remembering that he points out that he then became worried about the fact that it was some African tribes themselves who trading in slaves were finding them. Bring into the coast and on selling them. What is my point? My point is that all of us. Can do the wrong thing. All of us can undergo a change of heart and do the right thing and always been struck by Martin Luther King who seem to want to say the cultural? This shouldn't matter. It's the content of character, but now he's be turning it around on saying the color of skin really does matter. Yet, so two things there I I couldn't agree more. I think. The, the more you learn about human history and especially world history, the more you are absolutely unsurprised when any group of people is incredibly cruel to another. Skin color has nothing to do with it. As you as you correctly noted the vast majority of African Slaves Central America were not made slaves by Europeans. They were made slaves by other Africans and sold for goods by those Africans. Who Profited? And sold to the new world. There is a massive. Slave trade perpetrated by. which evolved millions of Africans also involved enslaving Europeans China's had slavery since ancient times. I think it's it's easy to be. provincial having been born in the modern era. About how commonplace! Cruelty has been. Throughout the world throughout history, and therefore, it's easy to make mistaken thinking that somehow white Europeans have been uniquely cruel. Very few people that the largest contiguous land empire history was the Mongols Right They had almost as much kill the only the only larger empire was the British and all of all of this. The conquest whether it was the aspects or African nations or the Mongols in the British, they were all cruel, and we can quibble about which ones were cooler cooler, but think that's missing the point. The the fundamental principle that is important is that. As, you noted we are all capable of enormous cruelty. and. We have to have some kind of universal moral moral principles. That, discouraged cruelty regardless of whether that Kunsi is. Directed at people once killing skin, color or another. Regardless of whether it's justified in the name of. A. Of making up for history of compensating for history. We have to have. A principle that recognizes the human being as a fundamental. And Valuable Unit in IMMA. Herself That is not that does not take into account there's. The one of the things that dismissed as we now know there are more slaves. On Earth today than there ever been in the past as a percentage of global population is probably much lower than in the worst days of the Africans life try it and indeed Middle Eastern. Slide tried and Chinese, but that's an estimated forty five to fifty million slaves to Diane I find almost none of community, activity and uprising about that the some, but nowhere near enough. So nothing's changed. We are still capable of trading one another justice inhumanely as AVA. Yeah. Yeah yeah absolutely. I don't really know what what? Can. I think in in some African countries Mauritania her. They have A. Problem Slavery. I'm not sure what can be done by us about that with the UN can be doing about it, but that's definitely a compensate. You know there is something a little bit grotesque about. The level of interest people have in slavery that happened hundreds of years ago without sort of knowledge ing slavery that exists today. There is something I always find a little bizarre about that. And, and the other thing that's concerning is that it's it seems as though. It can be fashionable to tackle a problem in some areas and blood out of all. One you ignore a much more serious problem where there is systemic evil. Use It to use a term somewhere else. That's as. Some people matter. And some people matter less and can even be airbrushed out of public consciousness. We Need I. think to be able to walk and Chew Gum at the same time, but to come back to. And the next thing I wanted to ask you about. It does seem to me I am not from moment denying the problem I think it really matters and. I'm not trying to trivialize airbrush out. The challenges that people might face in yours or my society. Certainly an aboriginal communities in Australia there are many challenges I just think we misdiagnose them, and we often remove agency. That's the worst and most patronizing thing you can do all in in my country, but. As I understand it African Americans on the sort of Sasha and economic scales have been doing better fences sixties about the time. Martin Luther King was active preps a third of American and African Americans who middle-class on middle class incomes. It's probably closer to sixty percent now, so there's a trend line. As I, understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong. That he's not all bad. No. I would go even further It's hard to find line. That starts in nineteen sixty and ends in two thousand twenty. That isn't good. basically all the trend lines are good with regard to wealth health income. Even the you know. I'll I'll just say that for now, but the problem is that people don't look at it that way. in the media especially. People do rather than compare lack Americans today to black Americans. Fifty years ago is compared black Americans today to white Americans today. and. So. They don't see any progress. a common statistic for example is that? A hundred years ago. Black people had one tenth the wealth. Of White people on on average, and that's still true today. so in their minds they'll say will actually no progress has happened because black people still have one tenth of wealth. That white people have. Of course. The math there can be read any number of ways it. Black people are enormously much much much wealthier. Than, we were. Fifty or one hundred years ago. So it it all matters whether what your benchmarking, so if you compare white Americans to Americans, you actually find White Americans on the losing end of that income disparity. And that incarceration disparity virtually any disparity so. The benchmark you choose. Ends up determining the. Attitude have towards whether progress has been made I'm I personally think that the benchmark matters that there's A. There's a proper benchmark to choose an improper bachelor choose. Ultimately what we care about. Is What we want to see is every generation doing better better than the last one? I think that is a realistic goal, and it's a goal that doesn't require this unhealthy. Comparing between groups that have completely different histories, and ought not be compared to each other reminds us. Why always compare blackout comes to white outcomes? If white people had several hundred years of have start? Only be if you're running a relay race and you inherited a ten yard. Disadvantage from the last runner. It's not a failure. If you don't recoup the ten yards necessarily, it's what you want. Make progress. That's how I view things that's. Somewhat controversial position in the American commentariat. But I think it makes sense. That's very valuable insight I think. Can we come into your very strong on data and facts? Which Seem Matt Lessen the age of identity politics on our ad, then emotions and feelings and tribalism, but what are the real numbers in terms of? Police killings in America and the if you like the racial background of those who who are shuttle. killed. As I understand it. They caught revealing, and in fact in a nation of what three, hundred, thirty, three, hundred, forty million. With the reputation America if I can be, frank, has now full full violence, the numbers of people, the men, and who, in mining, in any way, who shot surprisingly love, but can you give us a bit of a feel as to just how racially bro? They, they breakdown. Share. So Act Russell. This is on summarizing from the past five years of data. Roughly a thousand Americans are killed every year by a police firing a weapon. Of those thousand. Usually ninety five percent are armed at the time that they're killed. And the police, men or women made a decision to pull the trigger on an armed suspect who was viewed as dangerous on on account of being armed. Now. Not all of those were justified, perhaps but it's it's generally succeed to assume that most of those cases where. AQAP is doing his or her job correctly by. You know. Eliminating a genuine threat to other people. So that leaves about sixty on armed Americans killed every year in a country three, hundred, thirty million. That? Has Something on the order of ten million arrests. Every year. Fifty end up with a prison who are getting killed? Of, those fifty. The majority are white. or at minimum, the largest group are usually about forty to fifty percents of of that subset are white and almost all men. Usually anywhere from twenty five to thirty five percent. Of that. Of. Armed American shop at a cops are black and and the rest are. Hispanic largely and very fury's. So. If you look at that disparity f.a.s.t as valued, it can seem like there's racism there because black people make up fourteen percent of the population total, but about thirty five percents of. unarmed Americans second shop cops. You can say wiesner fourteen percent. Doesn't that indicate that there's a racial bias? Will problem with that is you have to adjust for? Other variables that the cops aren't. Randomly. You know knocking on people's doors and encountering. Different citizens of different races equal. The cops are responding largely. They're responding to nine one one calls. and. The cops get more nine. One one calls from black neighborhoods because. Of the underlying facts of racially disparate crime, which is to say. Black people are about seven times more likely to commit and suffer homicide. for which we have the most reliable data. Which means that if you're getting if you're getting seven times as many homicide calls from the black community, as you would expect based on population alone, you just have more opportunities for things to go wrong to begin with so once you control for. That variable. Once you control all these important volleyball's. All of these studies are the majority of the most rigorous studies. Especially, the one done by Harvard economists role in Freire. Minute that the result surprised him. Is that there is not an Ansi Vajpai's in cops likely to pull the trigger, but the other thing studies tend to find is cops are quicker. To put their hand on. Or Roth up a black or Hispanic suspects. We don't I think the the we have a clear picture of. Why? That is. It could be due to racial bias. And no doubt I think there are racist cops and. There are. there's a wider set of whether or not the racist cops bad cops. And there's a huge problem of the police being held accountable when they abuse people, so I'm not minimizing any of that I'm just to the specific question of there is. An epidemic of? Tops killing unarmed black people snotty. Chimney that you you made a very important that they non one one colza different numbers in our country, but emergency calls and. Often originate from Blackwill looking for protection. They have every interest in I would have thought building a better. More effective. More wisely trying to educate if you like police force rather than deconstructing police horse, which is. Obviously the objective of a lot of wide elites who are arguing it seems in your country for deeper lacing same to me to be the worst possible relation than she is a real lack of understanding, perhaps even interest in fact. I agree with everything you just said except that it's not just a light elites. It's also activists, a black activists white activists activism every are. Calling for. Who are in their own way, a kind of elites. You're pointing we'll take. It's not the typical person. Black white or other who is who who wants to defend the police? And polls show that the majority of black black Americans do not think that's a good idea. And as you also say, you know. Often. Improving a given institution require funding at Morrison of often when we talk about public schools failing in this country. Known suggests that the few people suggest the seniors just to de-fund with public schools, as if taking away money from institution will magically translate into them being more efficient at the jobs. often. It's the case that police officers in America are undertrained. Often, it's the case that they're overworked. Both those solutions, but both of those problems. Call for more funding not less so again. Don't. I don't ever mean to minimize the the abuses which exist and the fundamental accountability that is to say in America if you're. It is extremely hard to get punished anything. Short of shooting someone. while. They're lying face down in the back. Short that it is extremely difficult to face consequences for anything. And that goes whether the victim of the COP. Is White, black, purple or whatever? So that's a problem and we have to find a way to fix that. Without going too far and Making it impossible for cops to do their job. That is a genuinely talk problem. Anyone who says the simple answer is selling snake oil. It's just a tough. Tough thing. I can I can really except what you're saying where. I think my biggest takeout would be the worst light or practice. Problem is to simply Roussel's attack. Police has an unwanted evil that simply we're all human, Thou just turn inward on themselves and become defensive. You've got to start with an attitude that says we need policing. It's an honorable profession. How do we fix the problems rather than we want to get rid of you because you all a pack of? Stalinist nuts drew I mean. I've attended many of the protests. In New York and Washington DC and the the rhetoric is. I. Can I curse on your show? just suggestive, faithfully described rhetoric. NYPD SUCK! My Dick is one of the main chance. And would. Get in the police face in flip them off in almost you can. You can feel them almost hoping for some of them. Most of the protesters don't do this. Most of the protesters discourage it, but there's a minority within them who love provoking tops getting close to their face, almost spinning in their face. And you know using profanity like that. What basically whether or not the see? A lot of these cops by the way are Black Hispanic New York like half the cops in the city or black in this. So. Yes! Yes, it's a it's a strange situation to be in to be. To be a black police officer. Is hearing. It's though one situation where a white person. It's acceptable on the American left for white person to say something horrible to a black person is if the boxers happens to be a cop, so only time. Though allow that kind of salary or perhaps like a black conservative. But. If we want. We need police to be an attractive profession. Is One of the big problems and Ray. Kelly former NYPD. Commissioner! Near Police Department Commissioner, made this point is that? A lot of times, police departments are hiring their problems. They're hiring by bad apples. I'm not saying the problem is only a matter about apple's. It goes far beyond that it's matter of systemic incentives and so forth. But there is in addition to that problem of hiring people who should not have been cops who should not have passed the screen. In into being cost. Why did police departments have to do this? Because not that many people WANNA be cops. It's It's a dirty profession in some ways, it's like it's one of the twenty deadliest options. A cop get shot almost every day in America. That's another thing that's not true in. I imagine it can't be showed. Your after you're gone reform. It's definitely not in Europe. But during America copy shot almost every day. In addition to that, there's a portion of the country that hates you because you're a cop. Most jobs like that you. Don't want to sign up to aided. The average salary is something like fifty thousand dollars, fifty thousand dollars, which is good, but not great. So we want a bigger applicant pool to begin with so we can get the cream of the crop. while. We want to be able to theory. Bump up the salary for so that we can attract people who would have otherwise gone into a higher paying hang profession. To become cops. That's part of the way that we're going to. Get to a more healthy relationships between police and civilians and higher quality police. How can we do that if we denies the COPS IF we may get? The I imagine what is the typical black twelve year old in America? Of. You know who isn't going to go to college because it's not really for him. Howard his attitudes being shaped towards the possibility becoming a copper. If you grow up in this era. You to you almost have to be crazy to WANNA. Become a cop. You'd have to have a really strange level of. You know being able to. Shun, the Zeitgeist into go against the crowd. Which means that you know there's going to be fewer blackouts. May maybe even cops I don't know and and the ones look in any way. It's just going to distort the applicant pool I've I worry that it is i? Don't have necessarily strong evidence this, it's A. As trust and goodwill and fighting are institutions breaks down right across the West is actually true of a lot of professions. For many years was in public services in elected member, but the disincentives ironically people sort of say, are there any into law and the Rand Nester all corrupt Lisera? Let and that just disguises. Good people, the very people you want from taking up the profession that makes it a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. They're not good. They end up being good. You don't solve the problem. You actually make it worse. which is what sort of worries me about the extrordinary emotion and hate the develops around things that are. Potentially real problems. Can we get back to? Your died around. You argue path. The evidence is strongly supportive of your position as I understand it that blacks are not badly I've represented in in the prison numbers for example In terms of what they've done. Then not so much more likely to be arrested and incarcerated. It's more the fact that as you yourself said. There are a lot of calls particularly things like homicide from black communities. It seems that. You've got a lot of particularly young black Americans falling by the wayside. That men sorry and ending up incarceration there Allah factors than simply the color of the skin. Can we tease out a little bit? What are the factors? creating the problem. Know that many lack American are doing very very well, but plenty there many young men in particular because they've asked the represented versus women in your Giles what's going wrong? Fool them well. It's hard to begin, but you know. I I think you have to say it begins in the home. you know roughly two-thirds of black children are born. Out of wedlock, the the rate of Single Motherhood in the black community is much much higher than in the white community and has been. Calling on fifty years maybe fifty sixty years now. more than just the reality of you know not having a father in the home. is where you have whole neighborhoods. Wear very, there's you houses with. Father's settling home. I think frankly if you grew up in a nice neighborhood, any raised by single mother. I'm not sure you're going to be ruined by that necessarily if you're in a stable environment of you, certainly have feelings about not having your father in the home, but it's not like A. You know a pipeline to prison, but if you're in a neighborhood where there are. There are no there are very few stable family units where like ninety percent of families are not. A. Married couple. Raising their children. This is this is true medically. In. Certain black neighborhoods. It's you know it is very hard for the government to come in and six. That was public policy. so much of stability and so much of the nourishment that can come. From having multiple adults, raising their own children in stable units, adults or not shifting around with partners, whatnot. It's very hard to correct for that chaos. That social chaos when it exists and When that is the norm you get into. You can easily get into a cycle of that kind of behavior. Few grow up, and it's just normal to to father kids on wedlock. That's all you know. If. It's if it's if it's normal to commit crime and Aba criminal lifestyle. And the you know the menu grew up idolizing. Or Criminals then. Again. That's all you know, and you can fall in. It's just much easier to fall into in that context, and it's very difficult to break a cycle like that once it's begun. So. You know all of those. All of that is to say. there are very difficult problems here. There's a reason we haven't figured out how to solve this problem easily third. Fifty years because it's hard. You can't really Yeah, you can't just sort of change. The pattern that people have grown into even if it's a result of past government policies in some sense. Even if you can trace all of all of it back to slavery, I'll grant for the sake of argument that that's the one can do that. It's still difficult to fix a problem that has become a cultural problem, and that has become a cycle of poverty. with with government programs it's difficult, and it's not confined to the black community. Although there's a big difference in degree, we've also seen this increasingly happening in rural white communities as well although past twenty thirty years. It's common right across the Western world. I think we've known for very long time. That boys in particular. Learn by imitating by modeling following modeling. And ideally in most efficiently and most effectively. That is I think in the presence of the biological father who'd who teaches them how to treat? Others had a trait, then mother Hata Trade. The community members around them with respect. If if that's not there well because boys look for model Alfond the black next door, and if he's not there, then they'll join a gang, which seems to be a particularly disastrous outcome, but he's he's the point. My I would have thought that one of the most effective things you can do if you wanted to low the right of. Incarceration and Terrible outcomes full. African American men just as full white American men. You'd address this issue of the home environment that I grow up in. That would be more effective than protesting on the streets in the long term, but not as you call them in your country, the liberal establishment wind have a barbeque because you're not allowed to cast judgment. On on the sort of environment, in which we rise at children, anything guys in the name of civil liberties, and then when it turns into a disaster for people, we ride on the streets. The American left. Has a kind of. An you alluded to this earlier in the conversation position on agency that is fundamentally flawed, which is that? If a black person does something bad. He's not to blame. Ever get is always society and to blame him. Makes you a racist? That's that that's the quintessential. Example, of racism among American progressives. If a white person does something wrong. Then, it's very much valid to blame them. What does that say? What does that actually say? I'm not dismissing that. Society has a collective responsibility. To. remediate issues that. Wrongs that are done by individuals. Like. We do have a responsibility to use public policy to. Try to reduce crime and incarceration. Absolutely, that is completely true, not denying that what I'm saying is. If you can't ever. Take a stance towards another human being. which blames him and him alone for his actions than you actually don't seem as someone who is capable of changing his actions. The reason you appeal to blame in the first place. Is because you think it can get someone to act better. What are your child? Does something wrong? You know that by shaming them. That is possible for them to change their behavior. To develop a better care. They're they're a person with reason that can be appealed to. To Act, better or worse into merit, when they do the former and blame the latter as you're saying nothing, a black person does. He ends up in prison because he murdered someone. That's all society's fault. It's not his fault at all or if he walks out on his his children. Then that means you don't view black people as a whole as a group of people that can be appealed to do right. You're essentially infantilized thing. All black people in the name of anti-racist. It is it's it's It would be funny if it weren't so sad because. That is the that's the essence of racism. The essence of racism is to say we are not an agent. That can be appealed to to improve your behavior. Your some lesser kind of thing. but On the American left today that's viewed as. What it means to be not racist. Can I ask a personal How does it feel for you? Who you know very dedicated to reality you. You see the problems. The problems for moment. But you see the importance of actually and assembly on a real understanding. What's happening before you then try and launch into finding solutions. What's it feel like to To be out of a society that's less interested in reason to buy more interested in a motion. Does it put you in a difficult position in practice there just whole swaths of media that. Aren't that interested in irrational conversations. I feel often planning a different game I'm playing I'm playing a sport that has a different set of rules than some other people I'm playing. A game that has rules like. You have to use facts in evidence and logic to tobacco your argument. The fact that something that comes out of white mouth or black mouth doesn't matter to. It's being true. That's the kind of that's my general approach. I think I could defend that Roach that approach. If I had to. but other people have completely different approaches. They view the world surely in terms of groups of good, good and evil people. The evil people are often divided by their identity. and. It's all a matter of wresting power from them. It's simply a matter of using rhetoric arrests rest our from the good people and give it to the bad people. So if I'm if I'm put into someone who has even a little bit of that. Software operating on their mind. Conversation breaks down extremely quickly. Because we're, it's again. It's just like. They picked up the baller. which you probably fall with their hands and destroy, go along insisting that they used their feet to kick it. Melissa literally fuel courage feel calmness and fuel reason. Progress is never my particular democracy without those qualities. So all strings, your right arm and I hope you feel you can keep carrying on. And that people everywhere will recognize you any. Get good public policy when you have a good debate and good. Ultimately depends on facts and reason. Not Agree more. Thank you so much for your time. You've been very generous, not really appreciate it absolutely. You've been listening to John Anderson Direct. Further further content visit John Anderson. Dot Net dot Edu.

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Conversations: Featuring Dr Jordan B Peterson and Dave Rubin

John Anderson: Conversations

1:38:16 hr | 2 years ago

Conversations: Featuring Dr Jordan B Peterson and Dave Rubin

"You're listening to conversations with John Anderson, featuring Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin. Ladies and gentlemen. Please. Welcome John Anderson. We'll do it in and dive. Thank you so much for giving us your time. John Anderson dot net is basically dedicated to something that is very very dear to me as someone who is very wide about our country, and where we're going, and it's that you can it cannot get good public policy without a good public debate. And it seems that we have to bytes anymore. We just have abusive emotional mudslinging. So that's the sort of the background theme. But then we come to this incredible opportunity to die to engage with these two gentlemen. And I want to to get the ball rolling by talking about a number of issues firstly, personal responsibility. Then I'd like to move onto freedom. What is it because it's not licensed? It's not what many people think it is today. And how do we make it with our then want to talk about courage because we're going to need a lot of gang food, and you're gonna hear a lot or see demonstrated some real courage. I think he and what we're going to talk about and what you're going to hear what you're going to witness then a bit about social media and how we make it all work. And then it's over to you. We live in an ideal. When. It seems that. There's a crisis of trust in our culture. It seems that we are very uncertain of our institutions and the people who Mike them up and what they motivations might be. And indeed the research backs that up the strategy National University has been tracking strategies confidence in the politicians and the political process now for many decades, we are in Untited waters record numbers of strandings. No longer have confidence in the system record numbers of a strategy. Now, distrust, the political process and the players in it. Just more recently. We've had the lightest of a series of Royal commissions of inquiry into various institutions this times banking and the financial services, and we learned that we couldn't trust bankers. Now, there are many, trustworthy, bankers in cases or any here. But plainly people were deeply concerned by what emerged and you stop. And think about this. When people are in relationships of trust harmony and progress can be my when it breaks down. How many and progress are impaired and people flee for safety. If you don't feel safe with someone else you'll look for the rule book and you'll look for policing and you'll look for protection. So it's a good thing. We've had the Royal commission of inquiry. So we know what's been going on. It's a good thing. We've got the rich seventy eight recommendations new laws everywhere you surveillance new policing. But it's a tragedy that it was necessary in the first place people have not been doing what they've should have been doing without coercion. So now, we got a great big battles to how to resolve these things you say the law by surprise. But Jordan, you've said something quite different in the midst of all of us, what you've said is that the redemption of the world is not political. It happens at the level of the individual. That's what we hear on the million every not there's a new scandal. It's we need more rules. We need more policing. We need most violence. We need a different path in path. You're not saying that you'll sign it comes back to the individual. The first question is do you want that? Do do you want a more a state with more regulatory power? Do you want to state with more surveillance? I mean, first of all why would you think that that would be, trustworthy when all the evidence suggests in the past that as a state expanded surveillance power actually becomes less, trustworthy, rather than more? And why would you want you might think? Well, I certainly want someone looking into Europe fares. What I don't want anybody looking into mine. Well, good luck with that. Because you know to the degree that I have someone elect someone to look into Europe. There's there buddy well going to be looking into mind as well. And that just doesn't strike me as particularly positive development practically because I don't believe it will work. I don't think surveillance states do make people more honest. I think all the evidence is the opposite. And then I would say from the individual perspective. It's like I believe that the fundamental. What we got fundamentally right in the west because there is a number of things we got fundamentally, right? Even though we don't like to admit that anymore. Is that the alternate moral responsibility for the state relies on you? It relies on your moral integrity. And you know, you can it's not that hard to think that through. It's like well, first of all you have the right and the responsibility to vote, and we could say, well, that's not exactly given to you by the state. It's something that exists in some in some sense outside and before the state, it's part and parcel of your intrinsic value. Okay. So that's a decision that we've made in the west that each person, regardless of their flaws is characterized by a value and intrinsic value that so deep, and so profound that the very regulation of the state itself rests on their shoulders, and that's really something. That's that's why you have the right to vote. And that's worth thinking about the first question is well, do you think that's a good idea or not do you believe that we are in fact, sovereign individuals? And then well, let's assume that you believe that we are the alternative is some sort of autocracy right at some sort of tyranny. It's it's the it's the parsing off. That sovereignty to a bureaucracy or to some arbitrary form of leadership. And maybe you can believe in that. And you'd like a strong leader and fine, but you want to think through because if if it's not that then it's you well, then it's if it's you and you have to make sure that the ship of state is sailing properly. Then the first thing you might want to ask yourself is. What makes you think you're anymore, trustworthy, than the people that you're that you're despising or criticizing? I mean, if you are well more power to you. But it is self evident that you are. And my suspicions are that. It's not even self evident to you that you are because it's a very rare person that you come across if you talk to them with any degree of seriousness, you know, they're able to lay out a whole litany of of ways they fall short of their own value their own values, not values that other people are putting on them certainly that as well. And they can name innumerable ways that not only are they not doing what they. I shouldn't be doing. So they're falling short of the Mark in that way. But the doing all sorts of things that they definitely shouldn't be doing. And they know it it's like well. We're going to put that right or not. And my sense is I wrote a rule in my book put your house in perfect order before you complain about the world before you criticize the world. What's the idea? It's like, well, you're the sovereign man. If the states if the ship of state is listing and sinking. That's you. That's your problem. It's your fault. You're not doing it. Right. You're not educated enough. You're not awake enough. You're not ticketed in Atari articulate enough. You don't know enough about history, you're not taking on enough responsibility. You're looking for other people to blame because it's convenient, and and and that's kind of understandable, because it's the dispersal of responsibility who wants all that responsibility. But there's a huge price to be paid for it. The the first price that you pay for it is well there goes the adventure of your life. It's like you could get yourself together and be the bedrock of the state, right? That'd be hard at call on everything that you have that would be your adventure. You're gonna pass that off to someone else. And then then what do you do you've got nothing left in your life? But triviality, and you can't live. I don't believe that people can live ethically trivial. That's why think the pursuit of the idea that life is for happiness is wrong because life is too difficult for that to be the case. Our lives are too profound to characterized by suffering and malevolence the world is to characterized by trouble at every level for happiness to be the proper solution. The solution is something like a heavy burden of ethical responsibility. The kind that sets the state straight. And then in that you find. And the purpose of your life. And so not only if you want the external monitoring and the surveillance state, not only do you sacrifice your privacy and invite all that invasive attention and lose your impulsive freedom. You lose everything that's profound about your life. And someone takes it from you. They take your destiny from you. And that's no way to live. That's just that's the tyranny that we've struggled against in the west successfully for I would say in one way or another for for for a number of thousands of years and with a substantial amount of success to draw dive into this. We met in LA a couple of years ago, but breakfast die. If you're a great defender of culture to now when we met very interesting, you sit out the reasons in a way for me to think he's a card carrying progressive. You know, you you tell me what you came for Allman. What you believe in what you didn't. And then you said, and I'm guy married, man. And then you went on to say I thank God every day I live in Christian America. And I thought that's a surprise turn in the conversation on we had a fantastic breakfast talking about it. You're defender of culture now Ovau cultural roots at a time when the west seems to be its own worst enemy doesn't believe in its cultural roots can you elaborate? Yeah, of course. Well, first off as you guys. I'm sure know, Jordan, I just left in the opera house a few minutes ago, and we've done about one hundred twenty semi chose where I've opened for Jordan. And it just struck me in the last two minutes that having to follow you is much less fun. I've had. Having to go before you that's easy. I'm usually just setting them up. You're not going to have the park. But okay, I'll try. We'll just quickly on on what your intent about the individual because it links exactly to that. You know, people ask me all the time in the QNA's. And in our meet and greets what what is going on. Why is it that people are following this psychologist talking about lobsters all over the country? And and actually that question is what I believe is the answer. There is there has been a complete obliteration for young people to understand what being an individual. It is what being a person that owns your own mind that decides to get out there and live the life. They're supposed to live that doesn't want to take from somebody and give to somebody else or just take for themselves, and that has really been lost. And what's been amazing to me as we've done? Now, twenty countries is that the same things that you guys are thinking about in Sydney are the exact same things that people are thinking about in Toronto and Los Angeles and stock home and and all over the country, and that's absolutely fascinating. So. Your question because I am an individual that is what led me here that. That's I think what led you to wanna have breakfast with me in Los Angeles that the differences immutable characteristics that we either have in common or or separate us, whether it's sexuality or gender or skin color are completely irrelevant. If we really want to be a society that is truly free that truly respects each other. It makes no difference. I mean, I do when I go to colleges I usually just single out somebody in the crowd. And it's like how sad would it be? If I just looked at you. And I was like, oh, well, you're a white guy. You look like you're in your early twenty s as if that would give me any inclination that I would have any insight into what you think or how you should think actually is the better point because you should think whatever you think and hopefully be willing to have that exchange of ideas. So I'm very appreciative that I live in a Christian country because the simple fact is while the media will imply that you know, every day there's another story on how evil Christian. White people are something like that. And by the way, I see that spreading all over the world as well. I mean, there's there's a weird thing going on with the media where I thought it was really an American crumbling of the media. But now, I see it all over the place. I live in the free country in the history of the world period. The United States in two thousand nineteen is the freest place in the history of the world you can with with the most tiny exceptions on speech around yelling fire in a crowded theatre or direct threat of violence. You can say whatever you want and even being here in Australia where you guys have it pretty good on speech. I can tell people are jealous of of what America has. And certainly when we were in in the UK, where they have all sorts of things where you know, this this YouTube crater count dank you'll up had his dog do the do the Nazi salute and gotten all sorts of trouble. I mean, we won't have this forever. And that that's very clear to me. And I would just add this that Douglas Murray who I'm sure you're familiar with in the UK. He's also gay, and I and he's a brilliant thinker. And I didn't even wanna ask him anything about that. Because it's it's completely irrelevant in a certain way. But the last question I had him on last time. I said to him do you think your? Sexuality has a little something to do with your sensitivity about freedom because you know, it might be you I and he said that he thought his skin was a little thinner because of that. And so I do think that people that are on the outside for whatever. Whatever that is. It doesn't have to be sexuality could be obviously a myriad of different issues. I do think you become a little more sensitive sensitive to it. And for that reason. I mean, credibly. I'll go a step further. I am blessed that I live in the United States of America. And I can do I can I'm a free man in the freest country ever. And I'm very appreciative that because while we get on. I seriously. Can anyone push back against that on yet half time when you listen to the elites who have a hands on the levers of influence today. You would think we lived in cruel and oppressive cultures. Think of the Fulbright revolution is the American war of independence on what came out of that think of the French revolution. Think of the Russian revolution. Think of the mouse revolution, which has produced a real understanding of the individual. And secure their freedoms integrate y and win a strider Cosa unbelievably blessed fuse, you'll wear it again because we have inherited what's called a wash minster the best of the British house of congress. Sorry, house of representatives based on the house of Commons senators closely modelled on yours and it works unbelievably well, but you wouldn't think it the single the public commentary today. Now, let's come the freedom. When you and I talked in Sydney back just before Easter last year. We had a great conversation then tomorrow, and almost a lot found that we had a friend in common Alexander, Celts nights. They you guys a federal graph him. Now, it doesn't look very happy. When there's a good reason for that. He would have been probably busted up physically and all sorts of otherwise as well when that fighter graph was taken. He was a hero in Russia in the second World War. But after the war, he dead to disagree with the regime in Moscow, which was an unbelievable evil regime for the price. The price for disagreeing was ended up and the gulag in a prison is a remarkable book. A write about he's experiences said this was the only one I smuggled out to the west is night out that he's writing shortens the life of that evil regime. But the bit that Steig with me in which you referred to and have many times, you wrote a great sl on what I have. Sl on what I have at Christmas. I recommend to it was published in the times and then in the strategy or you can Google it was at this flack recorded that one. I was lying any cell oughta magin freezing called probably ilL incredibly. On happy, and he circumstances. His the thumping of God down the rows. Belting another prisoner up the screams of the prisoner. And then he writes off that it dawned on me as I listen to it that the dividing line between good and evil actually doesn't lie between captor and captive. Can you imagine a prisoner in those circumstances saying? The blood doing the bathing is captive towed. He's not free rather. He said the dividing line between good and evil laws somewhere across every human hot. It's not between man and woman to let the some of people in today's movements. It's not between Catholic and Baptist man. And woman the dividing line between good and evil. Lies somewhere at crossed every human hot. That was very profound for million public life on. I was telling these friends on the way out that for example, a point that kind of made to be caught realize a young federal member of parliament in the outback town of welcome and a very very angry young aboriginal man came up to me each Suarez head off at a said use on size, you stall from us you ruined issued United an absolute litany of crimes. And now you're gonna pay us back. I remember thinking stop stop remember that this guy has the stamp of nobility on to just concentrated at the moment. In and I'll go to do him. He's like me a mixture of good and bad. But let's take this out this incredible. Right. Who eventually was freed found his way to America the Americans and the west refused to listen to these warnings. It was they lock Kanda prophets. I got losing your freedoms. What did he mean? How do you find freedom when it's not physical? You can't move your fear of your life. But in some other why hate found freedom? Can we unpack that because I think it's important? Well, one of the things that social it's indeed. And this is something I think. We're thinking about I mean, I thought about it for decades because it's such a remarkable story. It. I think he tells it in the second volume of the Gulag Archipelago because it's a three volume book the full book. And it's all worth reading, especially the second volume, and especially the second half and in that he details his transformation, I would say, his, psychological or spiritual transformation. Now. He was on the Russian front, which was not a pleasant place to be because Stalin had signed a pact with Hitler and Hitler broke at and the Russians were completely unprepared. And so to be on the Russian front at the beginning of World War Two was a very bad place to be and he wrote letters to compatriot his complaining about the lack of preparation, and that's what got him thrown in the camps. Now, it's interesting to note that Stalin through all of the Soviet prisoners of war into camps. So if you were a Soviet soldier, and you would go onto the west and fought, and you were captured and put in say a German prisoner of war camp and treated terribly because Stalin didn't sign the agreement. It was from Switzerland to Neva Geneva accord on the treatment of prisoners of war and the Russians were treated so badly that the allies used to feed them, you know, it's not like they were not hungry. And so you would end up in a POW camp there. And then when you were done with that when you went home to Russia for your hero's, welcome. You were thrown into the gulag because Stalin believed that the mere fact that you'd be exposed to the west now made you a class enemy. So that was the sort of place the Soviet Union was now social to spend a lot of time in the gulag. And he observed that there were people there who he admired. Now, the camps were mostly run by the prisoners. So because most prisoners many prisoners became trustees. And then would move up the administrative ladder, and that's pretty interesting, and it really dark way, right? Because it's like a hail that's run by the devils. And they could escape at any moment. If they just realized that they were the ones running it for they didn't. And so. And so that that made the situation even more brutal that it might have been because he noticed too that prisoners who became guards were often more brutal than the civilian guards maybe to justify to themselves what they had done who knows anyways, social knits. And at one point noticed that there were people in the camps, whose comportment he truly admired who seemed incorruptible who wouldn't deceive or lie or take the easy way out, regardless of what it was that they were being threatened with and they wouldn't sign the confessions that everybody had to sign guilty or not guilty they refuse to play along and some of them certainly died for that. But many people died in the gulag. So that was hardly an anomaly, but he said that many of them many of the people who ran the camps were terrified by these people. And that also that many of them were religious believers, which was quite interesting. And so what he learned was that? Under terrible circumstances. There were ways of being more or less noble. And I suppose it would be under terrible circumstances where that sort of thing would be put to the test, and it really made him think about his own role in his own demise. You know, like he had Hitler to blame. Right because. Well, there was the second World War, and they had Stalin to blame. And I mean, if you need people to blame for your misery, those are credible people to blame especially both of them at the same time. And yet he started to consider, you know, what did I do in my own lights that increase the probability that I ended up here, you know, as a citizen, for example, who is responsible for the way that the country operated because you know, like an east Germany, one third of the people in east Germany were informers and everybody in the Soviet system. Lied about. Everything to everyone all the time. Which is of course, what you would do if one in three people were informers because that would be like two people in your family. And so the whole system was set up and maintained because everyone lied if think well if I stop lying, I'm done for. It's like, yeah. Fair enough, man. But if you keep lying, and so does everyone else you're also done for. And so is everyone else. So that doesn't seem to be much of an option. And so it's a noted that there were people even under these extreme circumstances that would tell the truth, and he decided that he would go over his life with a fine tooth comb had nothing, but time to think about every time he had acted in some manner in his life that transgressed against his own conscience right there where he did something he knew to be wrong. And then to see if he could figure out how to set it right, then now, obviously could necessarily apologize to the people against two. He had transgressed, right? Sometimes you have. To pay for something you did in a currency other than that, which you took and his determination was to chronicle his experiences in his truthful a manner as possible, which was basically an awesome. It wasn't like he had paper and pencil and and time to write and privacy had his notebooks ever been discovered. Well, he would have been in serious trouble. And they would have been destroyed in fact when he got out he had two copies of the full manuscript h out to a different typist secretly the KGB. Go to hold of one destroyed it and the type is committed suicide. So he basically memorized the book, and it's twenty four hundred pages long of eight point type like it's it's one remarkable. Work. It's one long scream of truthful outrage in oh and that came out of his decision to set himself. Right. And then it was as John said, it was smuggled into the west where it had walloping impact it completely demolished at least for a long while the moral credibility of communist completely from nineteen seventy two on if you knew about the existence of the Gulag Archipelago, you didn't get to say anything good about communism and that lasted for a long time and even convinced French intellectuals that there was something wrong with communism. And there's no doubt that it was one of the historical events that caused the Soviet Union to collapse. And that was a good thing, and it collapsed relatively peacefully all things considered. No, thermonuclear war Yugoslavia was no picnic, and but. For the demise of one of the most evil empires that ever existed, it was pretty damn smooth. And certainly the world's being in way better shape, especially Africa since the Soviet Union has disappeared because the African economies are booming like mad now, and it's partly because they aren't doing things that are insanely foolish under the guide guidance. You know, communist direction and so social instant decided under these conditions of absolute powerless than privation right to put himself together. And to say what he had to say. And that was enough to knock over the Soviet Union. Wasn't wasn't all that knocked it over. But it wasn't nothing. It sold thirty five million copies. It's arguably the most influential nonfiction book of the twentieth century. And it's unbelievably powerful, you think. Well. What power? Do you have? If you're willing to tell the truth. It's not easy to tell the truth. It's complicated. You have to take yourself into account right over the long run have take your family into account. You have take your society into account. You have to think it through you have to think strategically, and then you have to find your words, and that's hard to find your words because you tend to use other people's words or India logical words are words that mask or hide it's not easy to find your own words. But if you find your own words, and they're truthful words, there isn't anything that can stop them. You think well, do you believe that let's go back to the sovereign idea? Are you sovereign citizens or not? Well, if you are we'll why is that on it's because you have a certain faculty a certain power. What are you have? You have the power of your convictions in your truth and your ability to communicate, and that's what's supposed to set the state straight. Okay. So you have that. It's like, well, then maybe it's true that you're pursuing. In seeking if you have any sense. And what's true? Well truth is the best reflection. You can manage of reality imperfect because you're in 'perfect, but it's the best you God. It's like what what's going to be better for you than to have reality on your side. And what's going to stand in your way? If you have reality on your side live. I don't think so that isn't how it works. And I don't think anyone believes that. Because the other thing I've noted and discussed with people frequently is if you have someone that you love child, let's say you're trying to raise a child in a decent manner. You don't tell them look kid. This is how the world runs. Everything's corrupt beyond belief, including you, and your parents, and society and nature for that matter. It's just complete bloody hell everywhere and the only possible way that you can make it through life, effectively is to learn to lie as brilliantly and undisguisedly as possible. No one does that. Well, why not? If you believed in falsehood, if you believe that that was the way forward, then that would be the right thing to teach. But you don't you teach your children to tell the truth. Even if it's painful, and the reason for that is that you actually believe in the power of the truth a finished out with one thing. There's a very interesting scene in revelations is a very strange document appended to the end of the primary book in the western canon. Right. And it's a hallucinogenic nightmare revelation and in it Christ comes back to earth and he's not the merciful savior of the gospels. He's the judge. And there's a reason for that, a psychological reason the reason is is that if you have an ideal and whatever Christ is metaphysically, you're psychologically. He's an ideal. If you have an ideal ideal is a judge because the ideal judges you right? Okay. So he comes back as a judge as a sword in his mouth, and he judges that saved and the damned and it's not pretty, but here's something interesting. It's so fascinating he saves. His worst contempt and uses contemptuous language says I will spit you out of my mouth reading these. I will vomit you out of my mouth gnawed if you were a bad person. Not if you were good person, not if you're a bad person. But if you sat on the bloody fence, right if you were neither warm, nor cold you wanted to play it both ways. Well, I'll lie when it's in my favor, and I'll tell the truth when it's expedient for me. It's like, you're you're in the category of the damp, and I think that's absolutely right. Because that's real cowardice. If you believed in falsehood. It's like good get on with it, man. You could be a criminal and lay your life out and see how that works. And if you believe in. Ruth. Well, then perhaps you put yourself on the line for the truth. But you don't play the the two sides against the middle. Because there's there's nothing in that that isn't. Self-serving out the cost of your own wellbeing end at the cost of everyone else's. So you have to think about you have to think about your relationship with the truth. There isn't anything more important that you can do that. Because you're you're you're I've seen people in major corporations that were corrupt and failing spend three years doing nothing but telling the truth often out their own peril. Fix the companies, and it's such a relief to the people that they were talking to because they'd go talk to them that companies run by people who are not doing what they should be doing. And they're questioning it's like, okay. Well, what's really going on here? Well, no, one wants to talk because they're afraid, but the person who's doing the questioning actually wants to know and people start opening up he gathers information. It's like, oh, I see. Here's the real problems here. It's like we've got all sorts of problems here. This is why the company is in trouble. But it's okay. If we know the problems, well, then we can fix them. And we'll go ahead and fix them. And then the company will work and everybody who's terrified won't say anything, it isn't really working hard anymore because they're so dispirited and believing that the projects are corrupt, and that the leadership isn't doing what it's supposed to they start having a bit of hope it's like really mean, you're actually willing to admit that that is the problem, and you're going to give me a problem that is a real problem that I could actually work on and actually solve and benefit from. That and the whole company switches around and that works it's not naive to believe that. And I'll say one more thing about trust. That's very much worth knowing. So this is what you learn. If you're a clinician. Most people who trust are naive and naive is not a virtue. It's a fault. It's partly a fault. Because if you're naive, and you run into someone who's malevolent, including you, they might do in calculable damage, so that you will never recover. So that's not a good thing. You don't wanna be naive? If you're not naive. That means you've been burned once or twice or three or four times. Once you've been burned in that manner. Well, then it's hard to trust. Because you think well, why would I trust you or me for that matter knowing full well that I can be betrayed. And so then you're cynical, and you think that's an improvement over being naive. You know, it's you're more mature cynical than you are naive, even if it's premature and it's often premature in young people. So like, okay. So how do you get out of that conundrum? Well, this is a crucial thing to note. You trust people because you're courageous. That's why it's the same reason that you're grateful. It's a Mark of courage to Mark of commitment. It's like you. And I we're going to make an agreement and your full of snakes. And so am I and there's lots of ways this can go sideways, but we're going to put together an agreement. We're going to articulate it out. We're going to try to find something that is of mutual benefit to both of us. We're going to put our hands out and shake and we're going to try to stick to that. And we're going to risk trusting each other. Right. It's a risk, and that's the risk upon which the state is based really like I believe, and I think the evidence for this is very strong, by the way. I don't think that there is any other natural resource than trust. And for trust you need, courage. Not ninety fifty and you go to overcome your cynicism. So that you trust. And then you ask yourself to if you don't trust your institutions. It's like, hey. There your institutions. Why don't you go out? And do something about them. You say, well, I can't it's like that's not true. That is that is absolutely not true that there's there's nothing vaguely Acura about that in a society. Like, this almost all of our democratic institutions are crying out for people to participate. They can't find enough people to do it. And if you participate, and you and you do it diligently, and you have your say, and you're careful, and trustworthy, and you, and you and you, and you speak your mind, you can have way more effect than you think. So if you're cynical about the institutions, it's like look in the mirror because those institutions the corruption of those institutions is a direct reflection of your inability to get your act together. And that's what it means to be a sovereign part of the western community. So it's not someone else. So. This issue of trust. I would have thought that after what he'd Baynes through a new outlined? Not alone by any means. But some of these people who have warned us of the need to be responsible and a hade history. Sultanate's is a clear example, what has happened you made the point that for a very long time. We understood how dangerous that sort of drift towards Tallaght -tarian is AMIS. It seems to have washed out of the system. Now, it seems as we don't take history. We don't respect it. We dined understand that it can teaches valuable listens. And what worries me about that is the L saying if you don't understand history, my very will repeat it why do we walk away from people? We can trust warning us of the consequences. What an interesting reason for that that sort of brings this alternates in story into twenty nineteen which is that he was. Truly oppressed. This was a life of actual oppression. Right now, we have people that are walking around everyone in this room has this in their pocket. And if you have this in your pocket. Yeah. Hopefully turned up, but if you have this thing in your pocket, and you think you repressed you're very confused. We live in a time with such absurd. Freedoms in the west that are so. Beyond imagination of what people could only dream of two generations ago even one generation ago, especially with this that people now are have a perceived oppression instead of a real oppression. So one of the things that I find when I go to when I go to college campuses is that these kids will protest, and they'll scream and that, you know, the everyone's all right and everyone's a Neo Nazi and the rest of this. And I I always find. All right. Well, how do you how do you break through to somebody like that? How do you actually when they have you've talked about this when they have that look in there, I truly a possessed look. And there it's this this post modern monster has become sort of a secular religion. And I think that's also one of the reasons why which Ordonez doing is resonating because they've they've removed religion from the equation. And now, they have no meaning, and they put it all into this, really competing set of ideas. What we call the the oppression Olympics where they're constantly competing for oppression. Because they believe that victimhood is virtue and victim. But of course is not virtue. What's virtuous is getting your life in order and going out and doing something? So I'm always looking for a little trick to get through to these kids, and it's really hard because when they have that sort of glossed over zombie. Look, it's it's tough. And I found one trick that actually kind of works. If you can get it to them in in the most simple personal way, and is particularly works in the United States. And I have no doubt that it would work here in Australia as well. I'll say to them anyone in this room. Does anyone in this room? Have it worse than their grandparents? Now, I've done this. I don't know one hundred times probably nobody has ever raised their hand. Nobody ever if you live in the United States, you basically short the I mean, the only outsider case would be if your grandparents were oil barons or something like that. And they lost all the money in which case in which case, the leftist would actually love that too. Because we show that well, it would show that that accumulated wealth doesn't stay beyond generation. So they're all about that. Right. So, but if you can do something like that. I mean, if you say, I mean, everyone in this room can do it like can everyone picture their grandparents. Do you better or worse? I mean does anyone in your have it worse than their grandparents and that shows you that it's perceived oppression? Not a real oppression that that the thing that they're fighting this patriarchal post modern capitalistic thing that they're fighting, and they can't define it. So it's hard to define it for them that it actually has bent toward Justice, always always and one when you get what you can plant that seed in them. I think it's a little bit of something. But it's very hard to break them out of that. But I think the key here is under saying that it's perceived depression if you live in a free society in the west in two thousand nineteen you're not oppressed. You may be you maybe don't have as well as your neighbor does. And maybe you came for more, and they came from less or maybe you're sick. And they're not or a series of other things, but you've got a chance, and that's all you're supposed to have in life. And I think getting that through to them as opposed to the system is horrible. And I have to know. Destroy the system as if they could magically reconstitute a system that really would just be affect throwing away thousands of years of human history that they're so wise, they're so wise at twenty four years old is there shouting down speakers that they could they could build up what nobody before them could. And that's the danger there. So I think getting them to to think about their own lives where they come from. I think is a pretty effective way of getting through to people. Well, we could also say like look. There's a claim that the west isn't oppressive patriarchy. And so that's actually true. The the problem with the claim is that it's not just an oppressive patriarchy. And there's a big difference between something being completely something and something being partly something. Because one of the things you might point out is that. You can look at human history anywhere. And what you see is a complete bloodied nightmare. Right. It's it's death and struggle and privation and war and horror everywhere with some progress in oh, some ability of us to pull ourselves out of the mire in. The west is the same is there's plenty of catastrophe in our past of all sorts, and I think it's it's necessary to know that. But then it's necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. You know, one of the things I see with readers who are. Unsophisticated and intellectually arrogant is they'll read someone great. Maybe they'll read Nietzsche, for example. And they'll find the odd thing that Nietzsche said that grates against their current moral sensibilities, whether they do that in context or out, and then they'll throw away the whole book, it's like. You don't throw away the whole book. It was Nietzsche. You don't throw away the book. He's like one in a billion, you read it carefully, and you think well, okay. No to that. But yes to this. And you do the same thing with Dostoevsky. And you do the same thing with Tolstoy. You do the same thing with the great writers of the past that have been passed down to us. You you read intelligently you separate the wheat from the chaff. Right. And you gain wisdom that way. Well, you do the same when you look at your own history. It's like well. Of course, it's a bloody nightmare. What do you expect? Like, what's your point? What are going to? We're going to burn it down. And then we're going to have something better as a consequence. Well, not so easily not so quickly. Maybe we read our history carefully. We think. Okay. Well, what did we get? Right. Well, what did we get right while the sovereignty of the individual? That's pretty good. The fact that you have right to property. That's pretty good. You can argue about the limits on that. But you know, you don't want someone just taking your purse. You know, it's it's helpful that there are things that you can earn own you know, the dignity of the individual. That's another one the in this since before the law. God, that's that's a miracle that we ever came up without idea. I can't believe that that idea exists because in most cultures. It's like what you might be guilty. Okay. You're dead because well that's easier. You might be guilty. You know, why go through all the trouble? There's plenty of people where you came from. It's like the trouble of presuming your innocence. It's innocent. It's even hard for you to do that for yourself. And and the idea that each person has an intrinsic worth regardless of their while externalities, let's say that's another idea that's a complete miracle. It's like what what what are we going to do? We're gonna throw all that away. With the statement that we live in an oppressive patriarchy, and then we're going to be left with nothing. And and what what good is that how about we'd look at our history, and we take responsibility for it. We think. Okay. Well, here's some things that need to be fixed. There's plenty of them. Right. There's plenty of them for each of us to fix and we'll go fix them. And maybe then we can atone for the bloody -ness of our history and for our so-called unearned privilege, you know, some of which all of us have and that would be good that would be part of the adventure of your life to and that's that's a far more, sensible and wise approach to the diagnosis of what's wrong with the west, then, well, it's an oppressive patriarchy, and it should be overthrown or whatever that, you know, current. Low resolution and resentful ideology happens to be and and there's something to be said for a bit of humility as well, it's like really you really think that you're capable of making large scale social transformations and getting it, right? Do you really think that you're twenty five thirty or forty? I don't care. You know, what makes you think you're smart enough to pull off something like that? It's very very difficult. Very very very difficult to take a system that works not too badly. And to do anything to it that doesn't make it worse. Much less to radically reconstituted and make it better. That's really hard. So, you know, if you're upset about your culture. Well, maybe you could think of some small ways that are local that you could go out and improve it. I think you should start with yourself is because. Well, then you're only harming yourself, and you're not a bad person to practice on. And then you could extend that to your while. At least you suffer for the consequences of your own experiments that way rather than having someone else do it. And then maybe you can work on bringing a little more harmony into your family, and maybe you can get a job and see if you're any good at that. And then if you manage those three things half ways respectably, well, then you could dare to put a toehold out into the broader community and think. Maybe I have an idea here that we could tentatively attempt that might make some small things slightly better that we could measure carefully and assess and that would be your contribution. And maybe you get real good at that. You know? So by the time, you're fifty or sixty and you have a solid life behind you. You're actually capable of generating large scale improvements carefully. As you were saying that I was thinking, I mean, this is exactly what Alexandria Akhazia Cortes is. I mean, this is a failed. This is a bartender with four thirty credit score, which is pretty terrible. But you all she's ever done in our life has been a bartender, and that's fine. I've been bartender at times. But the only accomplishment is becoming a congresswoman with I think around fifteen thousand votes by saying the exact thing that the that the media wants you to say the time, right? The idea that she could write this green new deal, and that somehow she is the one that can now, of course, she didn't really right at your, you know, we're not we don't know who really wrote it. But the idea that she could present this as if she has the ideas that could re-jigger the entire United States economy, and how we deal with energy, and transportation and everything and we're not gonna have planes, and we're going to pay people unwilling to work, although then she deleted that part and put that you know, it's like, it's the lack of humility there. That's actually staggering that she thinks no one before her might have. Tried to move some of these things on the margins a little bit. But she, but the crazy or the or that moving things on the margins isn't enough. Well, they don't believe it's enough. But the really crazy part of this is that pretty much. I think the five or six democratic candidates that we have now have all basically signed on board. This thing this thing. Which is I think you could probably argue that it's unconstitutional on on the grounds of it's just taking more for the government. But everything we know from history about how economic yards. Well, she's admitted you can't take an olive. She says will tax the billionaires. And then she also tell you tells you that the billionaires are the blight on society. So it's like, well, which one is it because you need the billionaires to pay for it, even though it won't pay for it. And if you don't want billionaires when we can't pay for it. So what are we doing? Give me give me one writers. Australia's longest serving prime minister is man called Bob Menzies, and he was a man of incredibly powerful intellect and very very deep learning, and he wrote fascinating -ly that democracy is not a machine it's a spirit in which the peculiar Christian conception. That. No matter what your station in life is. Each of us has a spark of the divine, and every soul is available value before heaven. What do I mentioned that partly because I think it's a very relevant point personally. But it's because in the mocking and the ridiculing of that respect for Feis out of the dual. We've knocked at one of the pillars of democracy with knocked out the idea that whether I agree with you doesn't matter. I have to respect you because there are higher authority places as much value on jozy dozen me. Now, it seems that the problem is that if you did disagree with me, I don't have a reference frame for good and bad anymore or full. Respecting you therefore, I'll have to assist on. Right. So you on goat. I have a model of and you data challenge me because you want to be going out of a us. That's your naval person, though, you're a Rice's story or something terrible. We lack a framework full. Respecting one another. And it seems a messy problem for it's the problem with the collective esteem point because if if you're defining characteristic is that you're a member of collective, then you live or die by the propriety of the collective the the antidote to that. Is that strange metaphysical claim, which is that? Well, which is fundamentally that we have a spark of the divine Innis. You think well it's easy to be cynical about that. But you shouldn't be because you act like, it's true. And that's worth noticing. It's like if you have friends or family members, and you don't treat them like they have profound intrinsic value. Then they're not happy with you. Right. You can't you can't have a loving relationship without that. You can't have a relationship of reciprocity without that you can't have a relationship of respect without that none of it. And they also want you to treat them like they're in some sense masters of their own destiny, which is also interesting, right? Because if you have a say a twenty one year old child, and they're upset with you say, well, I'm twenty one years old. I'm I'm able to make my own decisions. And you say, and they want you to agree with that. And you want to agree with it because you hope that there are ready to make their own decisions. And you think well, maybe they have matured to that point. So what are you saying what you're saying that they are gifted with the ability to take the responsibility to. Shape, the reality around them. And they insist upon that they insist upon you recognizing that in them as a hallmark of respect and love, and you know, you might be rotated because they're not acting responsibly enough to deserve that. But it's still what you hope for and want it. So like what was so what is it? We're the sovereign cornerstone of the state each of us. Are we going to dispute that we know the cost of that? Okay. Well, do we have that spark of divinity? Well, what do we struggle with day to day, we struggle with the potential that's in front of us and transforming that into the reality that could be that's as close to a divine faculty as anything I can think of it's completely mysterious that we can wrestle with the fabric of becoming and turn it into the actuality of being and that we seem to do that. As a consequence of our ethical choices. Right. You make bad choices. You think they're bad bad things happen, right? And you think they're bad. And so it's you took the. Tential that was there in front of you. And you made something bad of it. You can do that. And you can also do what's good? And we know that of each other. And that's part of the reason that we're granted let's say the right and the responsibility of being the cornerstone of the state, and so that idea that there is that divinity us. I think that's associated with our consciousness, whatever that is. Because consciousness is mystery. It seems to give reality to being right? What's being without consciousness? There's no one there to perceive anything there's no one there to shape anything. So is there anything there? Well, our consciousness itself seems to be what participates in in the reality of being and the transformation of potential into into actuality for better or for worse. So there's an ethical domain to a two. It's like there's no reason for us to be questioning these this fundamental assumption unless we think we have a better theory. What is that? Well, it's your race. It's it's your power structure. It's like that's what. You want you want to be judged on by collective standards. It doesn't matter. What you did in this forward? I wrote for this ocean. It's book, you know, the red the people who ran the magazine red terror, that's a hell of a magazine red terror. So I said, well, look if we're getting rid of the bourgeoisie, you know, don't just be start stopping with the people who own businesses you want to get rid of their children to because they're infected with the same damn evil spirit and just to be on the safe side. How about you take out the grandchildren two six year old ten year old doesn't matter? Everyone goes, you know, and what happened in the Soviet Union? Everyone judged on their collective identity. Right. That's how you're going to be judged. I'll find something about your collective identity. That's not so positive, right? Some manner in which regardless of how press you are. You're also an oppressor, you know, for you, it might be your mail without would do it for you. It might be that you're middle class. I can. Find some dimension of your multiple collective identities on which you're no presser, and that's good enough to do you in. If you take the collectivist route, the alternative to that is no, no, no, no. We have that spark of divinity, it's a societas with a deep deep responsibility. And it's and the ability that goes along with that. And we play that all the time. We played out every time we play fair games with one another. We have we have decent honest relationships with women other. We have business arrangements that are honest and work, and we can cooperate for long periods of time. We'd take care of our children properly. We take care of our old people properly, it's all predicated on the same thing, you have intrinsic value. And even if you do something terrible, let's say, and I still have the the conviction that you have value. Then it's incumbent on me to say. Well, you did something terrible. But you aren't necessarily something terrible. And it might be possible for you to shed that and to tone and to rejoin those who good, and that's something too. And it's built deeply into our political and economic injustice system. And it's it's no time to be abandoning this, you know, especially when you look around the world you'd see as spreading. And it's spreading quite rapidly. Everywhere. It's spreading things are getting way better. So enough crisis of confidence in the west. Like, we've got our house to put an order. There's no doubt about that. But I see no reason why we can't do it unless we lose faith in ourselves. And and this reason for that like life is brutal. There's reason to lose faith, but not in the final analysis. It's a Mark of. It's a Mark of malevolence and cowardice to lose faith. So the Robin though are just very briefly is that the people that are that are promoting these ideas, they actually believed that the experiment of freedom, which is all that it is. They believe it is bad. They believe that America is bad that the freedoms that you've won here are bad. And what's interesting is I've seen such a massive, look, I I was a lefty my entire life. Yeah. And I should be judged accordingly. But I mean, look what I've seen. What I see now is like I could sit up here and give you my my lefty credit rights on gay married, progressively pro-choice. Although I'm really struggling with that one lately because the left has now especially in America gun. So is on the issue has gone on. Komo completely crazy. I mean, they're literally quite literally talking about post birth abortions. I mean, it's it's it's really nuts. I'm against the death penalty for reforming the prison systems on four strong public education. I mean, I give you a litany of less. Fifty ideas. Right. But I can't get invited anywhere by the left or a democratic group or anywhere by any of these people. But you know, who invites me the conservatives, and I go up there. And I tell them all the reasons I disagree with them. And the libertarians I mean, I like the libertarians they're mostly stone. But like. I'm also pro pot. But but why is it that almost everyone right now? I would say if you're a conservative if you're libertarian if you're if you're a classical liberal or sort of a disaffected lefty, if you're an independent and a couple of other things if you're if you're any of those there's a great group of people right now that are willing to agree to disagree and get to exactly what your question was. Which is how do you sit down with people without impugning them? The only people were talking about at the moment that have institutional power because everyone every time you talk about this someone says well, but they're four white nationalists here and that and it's like they have no power. No, one cares about them. The media promotes them to make it seem like they're massive. And they're not no one even the right? Does a pretty decent job of saying that these people are no good. So all we're really fighting is this hysteric. What was that studying the Atlantic where it's only something like eight percent? Yeah. And the only about thirty percent of them think it's gone too far. So something like eight percent of the people believe really in. In this post modern progressive view of the world. And a lot of them are shaky within that belief. So it seems like a big monster because the media's always pushing it on us because they're allowed. But I'm extremely enthused that we've gone all over the world and met good people. Who are I think needs to be a little braver perhaps? But but are here are willing to go into that bribery in amendment that? What you've just said reminds me of two remarkable men in history g k Chesterton and George Mitchell disagreed on just about everything you could think, but I love the company now, isn't that incredible? They couldn't wait to be together. I have another good argument and a good fade together. That's what we need the genius of western hominy Scholley is lion in our -bility to respect one. Another even over our deepest differences and one day Chesterton was huge. He was six foot four and very very heavy. George Manchu was in great Shacklock, you'd say fellas and and. At JK tested on looked at George Bennett shoal, slim as a Reich, and he said. By g George he look as they must be a famine in England remnant your shot back as quickly as you. Imagine this great big gug Indian Mant, and you look like you'll the cools off. But you just mentioned courage. I want to get to some of the terrific questions. People who put up before I do. That courage is something you've both displayed in spiteful, and it's incredibly important. We live in a culture. Now, where I think there's a lot of fear when I was lost was you were Chatswood, and there's a thousand people in term a lot of young men. Looked around thought these terrific young Australians. They're pretty concerned about whether they masculinity might be toxic. And they pretty fearful about speaking out because we had once used to burn people the state good way. And then we went for the guillotine. And then we went for us. Now, we kill people in social media, and we do people get kneecapped everyday. And Woosh, I think we are you dick both of you actually because you've dad break the ceiling, and I've actually asked Jordan about this. And know why this is the beauty of modern even cooled off a bit. Who'd you will come precise? And you said did you do did you expect when you started on this journey to for end up like this? And you asked him what it's like to break through that. How do you feel about it when you're attacked, and you a very open, very honest. And you said it's very tough winter journalists does your over. But you might like to repeat that question to Jordan. Yeah. Quickly on the bravery thing. My my partner hates when I say this, but I don't consider myself brave. I am doing what I think is. Right. That is it that really is it I wake up every morning, and I feel that I have a I have something to do that's relevant and important and being on this tour with Jordan has been life altering not only for I lie for all the people that show there. But I don't I don't view it as bravery. I couldn't not do it. I guess is the best way to say it. I couldn't go to just go to a point. I think you'll probably being very tough on yourself. I think the reality is that carriage is not much not knowing fear. It's overcoming it, isn't it? And they must have time. When you've wanted to sort of sites. I don't want to be onto this attack. Well, I guess I saw enough when I when I started waking up to some of what was going on on the left, and I had seen the tactics over and over and how they destroyed. Good people, I suppose that as that went on and as I woke up and got out of it. I just became known to that. And I just wouldn't I just wouldn't live like that. I would think but the question that I asked you in Norway in effect was you didn't set out for this. When when c sixteen came around, you were doing all sorts of other things you had to practice you teaching all of these other things and yet you've survived these. It's not even the attacks survived a road that you didn't plan on being on. And the bravery that you've shown along the way is why people keep coming back. They keep their rooting for us more. As you often say, it's like these hip pieces come out and then in a weird way. And now, I see it with me they've moved on from you, by the way, they're working on me now. But yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy. I'm happy to help. But in a weird way. It wasn't that you reveled in it. But you made a point of saying look every time they do it. I'm still here. And I think really took me awhile to understand that. Because I always want, you know, I wanted to defend my friends, but I also wanted to defend myself. And now, it's like all right. Keep coming. I'm still here. We must be doing something, right? Because I don't spend all my day attacking other people, gladly attack ideas. But I don't attack people. I mean, I don't think we've done anything up here where we attacked a singular person. Right. And that's a that's a huge difference. So the question really was you invert Mark way. I'm not a big fan of cortex. Okay. Fine. Fair enough. Yeah. Exactly. So every now and again though, but I think I talked about her ideas talk about that. In the public sphere. I talked about her and her credit score. But not her as a as a person, but then she is in the public sphere. And it's also impossible to never talk about people. So it's you you you can't be that lofty all the time, but you can try to be a little bit. But basically you inadvertently ended up in this position where now by virtue of showing bravery, well, you sold out the Sydney Opera House and five minutes. Pretty it's a matter. I think it's a matter of being afraid of the right thing. That's the issue. It's like I decided longtime ago partly from reading soldier in. It's in that. I was going to try to be very careful with by words, and I was only going to say things that I thought well to begin with we're lies. Let's say I was going to try to formulate my thoughts, truthfully. And the reason I decided that was because I thought that the opposite was hellishly dangerous. And I really I really I really believe that I truly. He believe that. And so I if I say things, and I think they're true. And they get in trouble. Then I think. Well, that's not as much trouble as I would have got into. If I would have said something that wasn't true. Like, it might be more trouble right now. Who knows right because you don't know how these things are going to turn out. I had this interview. Most of you know, about it with Cathy Newman from channel four right? And that was a pretty strange experience. So what you're saying? Is it was a great interview? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And you know, she was pretty professional when we went to the studio like someone like that is professional kind of hard surface, and glossy and media presentable, the TV turns you into that. And she was perfectly polite in a professional way until the camera went on. And then, you know, and then she went after me and. And then the whole interview went went the way it went. And I thought I I had like twenty interviews that day, and and so I walked away from that. And I thought oh, God they're going to take seven minutes of that and broadcast it and make me look like a complete monster. And that'll be the end of that. And that is exactly what they did except they also posted the entire thing on YouTube not knowing at all that it was a train wreck. They have no idea wasn't like they thought. Oh, this is a train wreck. Re better put it on YouTube. Wasn't that at all? They've thought it was a perfectly fine interview. So then it went on YouTube. And so well, so like my mood changed a lot. It was first of all. Well, this interview went catastrophically. And then it was well, they're only going to use seven minutes of it. That's gonna be a drag, but I'll probably get over it. And then they put it online. And then there was just an incredible reaction and then five ten newspaper. Came out to play the victim cards for poor Kathy. Which was now all the online trolls were after her. And I thought that really really struck me. I thought she's one of the most powerful people in the UK one of the thousand most powerful, let's say or the five hundred most powerful, she's no bloody victim, and she's played paid plenty wealth for what she does Jordan, by the way, don't forget that night that this all happened. She was she did a video in her car. Reading the troll the comments by the trolls. Because at that moment, she didn't realize she should play the victim card yet. Yeah. She was lab reveling, right? Right. And it wasn't until she realized that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so then her employees said, well, we had to call in the police to investigate unbelievably crooked thing to say, it's like anybody can call in the damn police to investigate anything. It's like, well, what constitutes a credible threat? There are ways of assessing credible threats. They have to be direct. Act and detail. That's not how you assess suicidality, for example, if you tell me that you have a plan, you know, when you're going to do it, you know, where you have a gun you've thought it through. It's like that's a credible threat. Sometimes I wish I wasn't here. That's not a credible threat. And you see the same sort of thing online. Well, then ten newspapers play the victim card that poor Cathy was being troubled by at that point a million. Trolls knew there were that many trolls. But apparently, they were and then I thought well, God, the whole thing's going to go sideways again because I'm gonna come out of this as the villain who called four th you know, the all right armada to take down poor innocent, Cathy Newman. And so it looked like it was going to shift that way for about four days. And then well that didn't work. There was a couple of other interviews that started to push back that narrative and then switched back to my side. But look, I'm making a point with this is when I do an interview like this interview, I. Don't. I follow this rule in my book rule, which is. Let's say I think it's eight. We we've been doing this for seven do do. What is meaningful? Not what is expedient. Okay. So I come to an event like this. And I have an opportunity to say things, and I don't come in here and think okay? Here's a bunch of things. I want to convince you, you know, it's I I don't care if you're convinced it's not like, I don't care about you in the sense that you care for people and hope the best for them. But I don't care if you're convinced the so what I'm here for what I'm here for is to hear the questions and try to figure out what I think about them. And then to say that and then to see what happens like who who the hell knows what's going to happen. But there's here's if if if the world is properly constituted through truth, then faith is the willingness to have faith in truth. And so then you say what you believe to be true. And then some things. Happen. And sometimes they're not so good. Which is why people often lie. You know, you tell the truth to get in trouble for it. Every kid knows that it's like a wide you lie because I thought I'd get in trouble. Well, obviously, it's like, well that's not a good long term strategy. It's like so you say what you believe to be the truth. And then you have the faith that no matter. What happens if you've said what you believe to be truth. Whatever happens is the best thing that could have happened. And I believe that I think that's how the world's constituted. And so it's not bravery exactly I would say it's more like faith. It's like I'm going to say what I think I'm going to try to do that as carefully as I possibly can. And I'm going to detach myself from the outcome because sometimes they'll comes terrible, I'm at McMaster University or queens, and there's like a bloody mov of zombies pounding on the window. You know, what's a little slice of hell, you think this doesn't seem to be a very good idea. But you know. The tide turns two or three times in the next three weeks and something comes out of it. And so if you're going to have faith in truth, it can't just be. Well, did I get what I want in the next second. That's not that's not faith. It's like, no. It's an this is the other thing that you gotta understand. I think is that without truth. You don't have the adventure of your life. You see because if you tell the truth that means you revealing you're being that's what you're doing. When you're telling the truth. And when you when you reveal your being, then you're you're living in the world. You're there you're present. Right. You're you're you're you're that's being there. Let's say, that's you. That's your destiny. That's your journey. That's your adventure. That's what's going to justify your life the adventure. It's not going to be easy. But man, if you hide from your truth. Well, then. You hide from yourself. And then you not even there. Then who the hell are you? What are you the puppet you're the puppet of some coward puppet of some dictator or some second rate philosopher, some idiotic idea or a bully? You were afraid of in grade six God only knows, but it's not you living your life. And then you lose your life, and you lose your soul to so that's what I'm afraid of. And so, you know, journalists. Well, they tried to take me down. It's like, yeah. Well, that's annoying, and it usually takes me three days to recover, but compared to. Not having my life. And and and and not saying what I have to say. That's that's nothing. It's it's nothing. It's it's minor inconvenience. And and then generally, if you can if you can just withstand it, you know, two weeks, you get Maude, you guys might only to know this. You're going to get mobbed on social media. Okay. So what do you do? Unless you did something wrong. Don't apologize. That's the first thing because then no one can come to your defense. So don't apologise maybe you'll even double down carefully carefully, not vengeful -i, right carefully. You say no, that's what I meant. And if you don't like it too bad, and you get more. Then you apologize at different. Log comes after you. That's not helpful. And no one can defend you if you can hold out for two weeks, you'll win. Now. It's a pretty brutal two weeks because you know, if you're a reasonable person and one hundred angry neighbors show up at your door with pitchforks. You might be thinking there's something wrong with you. You know, like, you think that unless you're psychopathic, and you think well, maybe I made a mistake and it's easy to waiver and to and to back down. And maybe you're also afraid, but you know, if you scoured your conscience, and you're careful, and you said what you had to say, then leave it lie. And if and they'll throw the p. People who are. Playing this game will throw everything they can at you for two weeks. And if it doesn't stick. You're done. And then the next time they try it. It doesn't work as well. As it did the first time and by the fiftieth time, they've try it like as far as I can tell carefully. The people who have enmity for me are out of ammunition. They're done. I read hip pieces now, and I think oh, you just copied the hip piece from two months ago. It's like I'm perfectly habituated to that. They're out of munition. And maybe you know, like someone creative could still come up with some more beautician. Maybe that'll happen at the QNA. But. It's not bravery. Now, it's faith in the in the redeeming power of truth. And that's different that's incredibly interesting and encouraging. That's come through a couple of questions. Yep. Just preface is. To research on this and one of the things that people size love hangers stories. And I love hearing you being open on. I love it. When you connect personally with and somebody wanted to connect with you Tammy Tammy is here with you on the I think very conscious of incredible tai-bo that you'll setting. So as Elsta the you wanted to ask about how this works for you. It's celebrate having you in person in a moment of uncharacteristic courage, close to two years ago. I got married again. A woman who on any objective measure completely outranks me. Congratulations. Thank you. Now. She's very high on a sort of nece, and I'm very Hong consciousness, which you will fully understand. And so we contend we contend a lot, and it's good and we're going somewhere. Good. And I'm very proud for what it's worth. I'm aware. And I imagine what you'll loss is like I'm talking to you, Jordan. But I don't want to exclude you either, and I mentioned your life being one of constant exhaustion exhilaration probably favored at Tara as well. And the would contending is one that you actually used a few days ago on a different platform in a different city. You're talking to young people, and you challenge them to marry a might with whom they would contend, and I think of Tammy, and I think of you, and we don't hear a great deal of Tammy. But you guys a I'm sure working really hard. You'll contending you're confronting all this stuff. And you're processing it, and I'm sure you'll marriage strengthening trust it is. And I'd love some insight on that. If you can speak to what you'll learning about marriage in this season of your life. Well, the first thing we're doing is the Tammy is traveling with me, so that's very helpful. And she's paying attention. You know, so and we talk a lot about what is going on. But. Also, a lot about our family because there's complicated things going on in our family like there are in most families, and we do our best to communicate, you know. And she says what she thinks. And I say what I think, and we don't always think the same thing the old, but we do our best to listen. We do our best to assume that just because the other person has a different opinion doesn't mean that they're wrong. Even though it would be lovely if they were. And then we try to come up with a negotiated solution. That's mutually acceptable. You know, and we discuss strategy as well. I mean, for example, when we started this tour, which was more than a year ago, we thought, you know, there's a lot of competing things that you could think about a tour, especially when we had no idea how long it would be like, what was this was this vacation? We were going to, you know, spectacular cities all over the world. Was it time for us to spend together. Like, what was it what we're redoing? And we spent two hours thinking, it's like, no, this is work. We have a remarkable opportunity here. And and and we're going to do the work. We're going to hit as many cities as we can. And so what does that mean? It means we get the hell up in the morning, we make sure we're packed. Our suitcases aren't too full. We don't carry anything that goes underneath the plane. We make sure that I don't get hungry because then I can't perform properly we make sure that I met the theater at the right point in time. And we make sure that our I is focused on the fact that it's a great privilege, and it's very unlikely that we can do this. And so we thought okay, that's the deal. And then we thought well, and then we can take an hour or two here. And there if we're fortunate to see some of the city and to take a break, and to do that when we can't and we've negotiated other details about exactly how intense the scheduling was going to be. But it's a constant negotiation. And it is a contentious negotiation, which is good because. These things are complicated. You know, and to think something complicated through you need a good argument on this side. And you need a good argument on this side. And then you gotta have at her and see if you can come out with an even better argument as a consequence. And so that seemed to work now there's other advantages turns out the Tammy is very suited. I I'm sure I'm speaking from for her, but she doesn't have a microphone and actually prefers to stay in the background to some degree for various reasons. She's very suited to a lifelike this. She's quite stable emotionally. So she she doesn't suffer from a lot of anxiety. She likes to travel. She likes meeting new people. She likes the adventure. And she's supporting what I'm doing. And so that's working and thank God for that. And she also keeps an eye on what I'm doing. Let's me know. When it's going well, and when she thinks it needs improvement, and and and and she helps me figure out where I'm going next because for the last two years, my schedule is being so busy that I don't know what I'm doing next usually maybe the next day. And so her job because we've also parceled out jobs is to make sure that I get wherever I'm going next on time and ready, and so far that's brought I would say incalculable benefits fundamentally, and and because we agreed on it. We had our little constitution in place. We were able to handle the stress because I think we've been in one hundred it's damn near one hundred and fifty cities in three hundred and fifty days, and so it's very heavy traveling schedule. But and the other thing too is I trust her. She tells me the truth. It isn't necessarily what I wanna hear what you can tell that's the truth, man. What you don't necessarily want to hear? But so she's a very good counselor. And that's turned out to be exceptionally helpful. So. And I'm like their son who refuses to leave. I like him. I think we ought to give Tammy round of applause. Dave, I think one for you comes from Monica Wilkie, it's about dealing with difference. Thank you, John. Dave. I wanted to ask is it possible to come to a resolution with someone who has different values to you. So for example, if I have free speech is my highest value, and I'm talking to someone who believes that diversity at a quality is a high of value, and therefore free speech should be quelled in order to achieve. This is a possible to reconcile these differences. I think it is the best example that I can give you an I'm sure some of you have seen this. I've had a couple interviews and debates with Ben Shapiro now. Ben is an orthodox Jew. He does not believe that gay people should be married. He well, he believes that being gay is a sin is the loose word for it. Right now. Ben my studios in my home. I live with my partner, and my home, obviously, Ben, and I we're friends to to a certain point. You know, what I mean like you've got like your best friend in life. Who knows you the way your husband or wife or partner knows you then? And then you have sort of other tiers of friends, Ben will never as long as we have this disconnect. There's you know last time I had him on when we discussed this. He said that they caught fire on the internet. He said he wouldn't bake me a gay wedding cake, right or even come to an anniversary party because it would be celebrating something that he doesn't believe in. And I remember when we were having the discussion I thought, well, here's a really interesting moment. I can now berate him. And I can demand that he acquiesce, and and put aside whatever his beliefs are so that he will believe what I want him to believe, even if I think it is the right thing. I mean, I I I'm a good person. I'm doing I'm just doing my life as I see fit right then sees the world differently. So can we ever truly get through that? I would say, yes. Because what we agreed to for what we were going to disagree on. What we agreed to agree on was that it's not the role of the government to decide who can get married now. He's less thrilled with that than I am because I think that's perfectly fine position to take heed. He this. You see this a lot with conservatives. Now where they when you ask them about gay marriage Bill take the libertarian position they weren't taking it five years ago. But they suddenly now that they realize it's the law of the land in the United States, and it's just the easy way out. It's like, well, you know, I don't really care about gay marriage. It's anyone can get into any contract that they want to it's easy way out. I don't mind letting them slide on that. Because we're equal. We're we we made it. So it's okay now. So I don't know that you can ever. Well, let's put it this way. I think there are issues that you will have existentialism. Profound differences with people that you will not be able to get over. But that doesn't mean you have to cut them out of your life. And as I said to Ben last time, we talked about this. I hope that we'll remain friends to whatever degree our friendship is for the next. Let's say fifty years, and I'm a little older than him. But when I'm ninety two and he's thirty seven or whatever it is or thirty seven sorry what he's eighty seven map is not my thing. But when I'm ninety two and he's eighty seven. That may be the long game would have worked here, and he'll look back and go, you know, Dave, you probably were right. I suspect I will get him on this one. So I would say just generally try to be try to be as tolerant as the other people say, they are they're not really that good at it. They just talk about it a lot. But if you actually try to do that and realize that the world is not designed to bowed to you. And that you can show people you're a little bit better. I just I'm a firm believer that that is what will ultimately get there. But no, you can't get everyone right there. And it's for you to judge. What relationships you want to be in? I think it bring it home. Then a question, I think very potent than probably troubling guys out of something. That's troubling a lot of people now Rechelle on the men in the metoo era. I know bring it home at that point. But ratio was ratio. Brought to you. I just wanted to be clear I've never had a metoo incident with the woman. That's really good. Yeah. Festival. Thank you very much for being here and helping us to wake up, I really appreciate it. So my question is as a redeemed progressive. What is the K two empowering men in the may two eight while maintaining healthy boundaries and strong behavioral expectations. Was the redeem to progressive as. Well, no one's born guilty. No one's born guilty. If you haven't raped anybody, and you have in a costed anybody, and you haven't done anything untoward, then you have nothing to be guilty about. I mean, this is the consistent theme that we've talked about here about why you should judge people as an individual and not as a collective, but they've created a situation now where people are now being born with original sin euro, white heterosexual, usually Christian male that you are the worst thing that exists. And that not I mean, it's the essence of bigotry. It's you're prejudging. Right. So that's prejudice. You're looking at someone and you're prejudging them. And you'd think that you know, everything that they're not only about but capable of. So I would say the further we can get away from that. How do you? How do you negotiate those relationships while if you've done something bad, it's on you, Jordan address this all ready? It's on you to figure out how to make penance for that, I suppose, but if you haven't done anything and most people haven't that's why this thing this idea believe all women. That's that was like saying believe all men believe all midgets believe all I mean, it just doesn't it's not midgets. Now, you're going to get us in trouble for sure see you just walked into. Yeah. You did it to yourself this time. But it may I mean, really call little peep little people believe all little people. But but really I mean, if you could just take the riverside, they say believe all limit. Well, now, just do the or believe all men does that sound right. Of course, you shouldn't believe all men, and you shouldn't believe all women. And by the way, every time that this happens with one of these people saying believe all women, then the accusation gets turned on them like our governor Gavin Newsom in California or when it happened with Cory Booker or a series of these guys. And then suddenly they go wait for evidence. When it was cavenaugh. No believe all women. So it's just a ridiculous untenable way of holding a position. And if you're not guilty of something I mean, the fact that this is happening to young people in the west, especially especially young white men that they're walking around feeling like they've done something when they've done nothing. What are what a recipe for disaster, and the type of totalitarian society that we've been talking about up here. It's also reflective of of a technical problem. I would say. We've had relatively reliable birth control since nineteen sixty okay, that's not very long, and we underestimate the unbelievable technological. Triumph of birth control. It's it's the hydrogen bomb. It's the transistor. Like, it's a major league transformation in human interaction. Women are now free from involuntary report. Reproduction that's never been the case in the entire history of the planet. Okay. We don't know exactly. What to do about that? Okay. So the first idea in the sixties was hell, let's party. And you know, you could see why it's like what the rules for not engaging in. Promiscuous sexual intercourse seemed to have vanished. So we had a couple of decades of experimentation. It's like well. How'd that go? Little hard on the family. I would say that's not so good for kids. Aids. There wasn't a plus have killed us all and it mutated particularly to take advantage of promiscuous sex because viruses are very tricky things. So turns out that sex is a little bit more complicated than we thought. Well, it actually turns out that it's a lot more complicated than we think. Okay. And now it's four fifty sixty years later, and we're trying to sort this out. It's like well when is it okay to have sex exactly and win. Is it not okay to have sex? And what does it mean that it's okay? And what is consent Mead an answer to that is well, we never used to have to think these things through because the rule was don't have sex until you get married that was the rule now that isn't the rule. Okay. So what's the rule? Well, we're not having a conversation about the rule. We're waiting 'til someone does something that seems like it might be untoward and then mobbing them and trying to. Extract the rule out that way, and it's not very effective way of doing it. You know, you want decrease campus rape. That's easy. Get rail hall. No one has that conversation. So I I did my PHD work on alcohol. Fifty percent of the people who are murdered are drunk and fifty percent of the people who kill them are drunk and almost all the date. Rape situations are consequences of excess intoxication, but the yet, there's a party culture on campuses and anything goes, and you also have this strange thing, especially on the radical left, which is which is unbelievably paradoxical where absolutely every form of sexual expression. Imaginable is one hundred percent permissible because sex is fine. But it's so dangerous that well, you're dancing with someone at Princeton mixer. You have to ask them two or three times if it's okay for you to continue. You, and that's that's actually the case. By the way. I'm not making that up. It's like well, both of those things can't be true. Now. What's happening? I think on the metoo end of things and the affirmative consent end of things is the old sexual taboos are reasserting themselves. The idea that we can extract sex from emotional intimacy, and especially emotional intimacy. I would say psychological intimacy, maybe even from long-term relationship is I don't believe it's tenable idea. I don't think we can do it. And a lot of what we're seeing is the backlash against that. It's like, well, I feel used you know, because one of the things that's happening on the really radical end of the anti sexual abuse movement is the idea that well, if you have intercourse with someone, and then you regret it the next day that's evidence that it wasn't consensual. Well. It is in the sense evidence that it wasn't consensual because it's evidence that you didn't bloody well thinking through right? It was good for last night. But it's not good for today. It's not very wise. The question is what what constitutes consent, and we need to have very serious conversation about that like under what circumstances is it acceptable to give consent. But we're not mature enough to have that conversation. We want both ways we want to be able to do whatever we want with ever with what with whoever we want whenever we want with no consequences, and we want their never to be any trouble about consent. So like. No, that's not going to happen. I don't think that sex works. Very well outside of committed relationships. I don't think there's any evidence that it does. There's a strong proclivity across cultures for for the enforcement social enforcement of long term monogamy. And there's reasons for that. And I think you deviate from that at your peril. So now, if you if you want to deviate from that, there's all sorts of reasons to do it, and I can understand why people are interested in adventure and all of that. But it, oh my sense. Also as a clinician is you don't you only really get to try out about five people in your life. You have to make a decision pretty damn quick, you know, like between twenty and thirty. There's a lot of things to get straight and long term mate is usually one of them. And most of the time people should be more careful with their sexual behavior when they're young specially when they're drunk, then they are. And I think it I just think it's so interesting that all of the taboo, reconstruction is coming from the radical left. It's not what you'd expect at all. You'd think it'd be the damn right-wing Christians complaining about sexual immorality. It's like, no. It's the radical lefties, you know, you have to have signed consent before making any physical move. And then that's what really who thought that up. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You know, how awkward that would be? You know, you're supposed to be able to do a little bit of non verbal reading. Right. I mean, that's part of romance. You don't see you ever see a movie where the? Two people who are dating exchange consent notes that doesn't happen. So it's an unrealistic solution. But but I think the real solution is that. Despite the fact that we have reliable birth control. We're going to have to relearn what the acceptable rules of propriety are with regards to sexual relationships. One of the things I often tell my young clients is don't do anything physically with anyone that you wouldn't talk to them about as if you're too damn embarrassed to talk about it. Well, maybe it's a little premature in the relationship to actually do it. And then there's harm in it. You know, there's emotional harm in it for on both parties there's the cheapening of both parties. So. So it's going to take us a long time to sort this out. But hopefully, we can do it in a serious manner. And and it won't be merely. A matter of mobbing those who seem to have made an error, so dive you've given us unbelievably generously of your insights of your ideas of your experience of your wisdom. And you've done it with immense. Warmth and humanity icon. Thank you enough. I think always good Australians, what would agree with me. That's about it. Giddy. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson, the further content. Visit join Anderson dot net dot a u.

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John Anderson Direct: With Eric Metaxas, New York Times #1 Bestselling Author

John Anderson: Conversations

55:16 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson Direct: With Eric Metaxas, New York Times #1 Bestselling Author

"You're listening to John Anderson direct with Eric Metaxas. Please note the John Anderson. Direct is recorded live via online streaming, which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum Eric Metaxas. Thank you very much for joining us again. You're an author speaker and a radio host. You'll will not in your country fuel Christianson, or the way that you defended and promoted inaugurates highs. You've written multiple. Remind The New York Bestseller Lists New York Times list. On Hoffa I. Think is bearing the biggest Ciller of all. It was quite well known in Australia. Because we had a prime minister was invited the over. Yeah, we had amazing grace, which I think is the best summary. The best overview will laugh at honor rid I often give it away as a matter of fact if you want to understand culture, read this full because he was so influential. In the hour of the day and it's. Places like Australia which was set up Britain. You Heist. You're on radio chart and also soccer in the city where you explode right onto these and then meeting for the modern world so and you've just written another book which are crop way to get home all the seconds. On seven. interesting lauds on remarks over to that thing Martin, Luther King. But the tremendous have you with us? Can Either Saas works it like in New York City at the moment because we watch from Australia we get the news yeah looks pretty bad. Well it's an interesting thing. John First of all. Thank you so much for having me and as I I, said to you the first time you had me on your program I'm I've only visited Australia once, but I was very impressed. I thought that of all the countries. I've ever visited in a live other than than the United States. You all seem to get the freedom thing. There's a there's something that I am saw and felt in Australia, which gave me a lot of encouragement, speaking of which living in New York. You don't see so much. Much bit if you live in Texas or in the heartland of the United, states you see people who have sense of what it is to be free self-government, they take pride in those things of but in places like New York not so much When people ask what it's like here in a way, you could say it's like anywhere else. It all depends on where you go. you know if you live in a in an apartment you say in your apartment, but If you wander the streets, you can see different things right now. This coded Quarantine period. For me, personally has been a kind of enforced. Sabbath. I've been forced to be quiet and not to travel, and it's been a good thing for me I've been working on a new book. We have our daughter home with us, so it's been a really blessed time and I have seen very little of the horrors. That I know are out there, but you know that brings us into the bigger conversation. There was There was a little bit of fear mongering going on that hospitals would be overrun and so dramatic measures were taken a to prevent that dramatic measures were taking all around and I think in retrospect. Would say that the matter the that the measures taken were too dramatic that we too quickly, too easily gave up. Some of our freedoms because we thought it was the right thing because we were told it was the right thing. We have very little experience in the united. States of. Really having that kind of direct engagement with our government. We're free to do what we do. It's very rare that the governor or the mayor anyone has any direct effect on our lives, but suddenly for the first time in in my life you realized the person that we elected for governor. In Our case Andrew, Cuomo the person that we elected. Mayor the Blasi. Oh! They've really they've come up short in some ways. They have a view of things that. At a time like this, you see the downside of their of their view. mayor Cuomo I'm sorry, The the governor Andrew Cuomo. Did something that under normal circumstances he would have resigned in disgrace over it, but in an overreaction to. To the the news of what was happening with covid. And this fear that hospitals would be overrun He signed an order demanding that state run nursing homes except covid patients because he thought the hospitals would be overrun the hospitals. Didn't even begin to to be overrun in other words, we never even got near to that point, but by sending hoven patients to nursing homes, which most of us now know, are populated by people who are the most at risk by far when old people get this disease, it is highly likely that they can die that they will die. And that's what happened. And so some thousands of people died these are mothers and fathers died because of government policy because of the poor leadership of our governor, and I thought to myself. This is a new thing in my lifetime. Generally speaking, it just isn't the kind we just don't have that dramatic clarity on how policies or government vision affects people, but it happened in our time. It's one thing to talk about taxes as what there's an we, we have a number of ways where we see these things, but it's never been so clear, and so direct, and I also think because Americans as I say are so used to freedom we. Were Very It's a it's a good thing and a bad thing. We're very amenable to to do what we're told you know. We WanNA be helpful We don't want to cause trouble and when somebody says unless you do this, people will die everybody. leaps to to comply, but I I think in retrospect. It's been a kind of dramatic lesson for us about what we're willing to give up. For Freedom and I think that I wrote a book called. If you can keep it, where in part in that book I discussed this idea of what does it mean to be free? What does it mean to govern ourselves and I think we've been so free and so blessed that we've never really dealt with the price. People have paid the price. People have died in wars. People of people have made great sacrifices. Most people in my generation and younger. We've never really had to make sacrifices, and we've never really thought about. What is this What's the equation? What went when you give up something? When you when you give up some of your freedom for safety, point Do you give up too much freedom, and anyway that that's the long version, actually no kidding They're supposed to be Demonstrations in Times Square and they're supposed to March up. Madison, avenue looting the stores, so the stores on Madison Avenue, are being boarded up some of them and I think to myself. This is because we have a mayor who is unwilling to use the police to safeguard people's property. It's a mind blowing failure of leadership that if you have a very expensive store, an apartment building whatever it is on Madison, avenue, you don't have any guarantee that this mayor is really committed to keeping you safe now if it were mayor. Bloomberg or a Mayor Giuliani you have no doubt that they would do what was necessary. They understand their job. This mayor is very politically correct in the worst sense and. I think has given orders to the cops that make the cops get the idea well. WE'RE NOT GONNA WE'RE NOT GONNA risk our lives. You know to save. A department store were gonNA were GONNA. Stand there. We're going to watch it happen. I have to tell you sitting here as a father and a husband, it's it's outrageous. It's absolutely outrageous, and it's the first time in my life where I have seen. That the lack of leadership in folks like this mayor hit home in this way so covid and these. These riots they're using the excuse of the death of of of George Floyd of, but it's not A. That's not what why these writers rioting and most of them. Unfortunately, are not. They're not even from the area. It's kind of A. That's a long story. So you'll patio different picture of New York in particular in America in general and. The one that we're getting from the meteor in Australia I remember the media in Australia is. Very liberal in your language, lifted century house, and like cheekily dislike the tar. Occupant of the White House. Waste getting this of country tearing itself apart the New York. You you? You've just described situations visa himself from. Dominance. New Yorkers a price that was massively acclaimed opera, mighty Saif by good policing. Is that Bangla just the variety all? It has slipped away dramatically. It hasn't slipped away completely. We haven't gone back to what it was when I was a kid when I was a kid new. York was a very dangerous place though I grew up here. It's why we left here when I was eight and a half years old, because it was a horrible place was crime ridden. And because the democratic leadership. was unwilling to confront these things Giuliani by the grace of God was able very dramatically to change things. I mean every now and again. I think about how dramatic how dramatically things changed and I thought what extraordinary thing that the leadership of one man can dramatically change the city when I dramatically I mean I can hardly say. Early New York became a safe clean city. It had been a filthy dangerous city so amazing things can happen with you know the right kind of leadership and so to see things. Be maintained under Bloomberg a was good de Blasio has been nothing less than disastrous does vasteras there will be clear? A is not liked by anyone. The liberals don't like him I mean he is, he's he's just about as Atta mayor as you could have, and we have seen it daily nother as the change you see street people more and more and more that had been dealt with under Giuliani and Bloomberg. The idea that street people ought to be free to effectively abuse themselves by living on the street in dangerous conditions. In case you know, it is the role of government to take them off the street, which should belong to everyone and to put them in places where someone will care for them There's no you know. There's no proviso that says Oh, well, you know, anyone can just sleep on the sidewalk. And whatever it. At least a disease leads to crime at least it every kind of terrible thing property values plummeting, and so a good leader understands those things. The this mayor is particularly bad. I mean I. Think he's willfully myopic. On this issue. I have seen the city in the however many years. He's been mayor about five. Vary dramatically a move in in a bad direction. You know you just walk down the street and you see things that you haven't seen in twenty years so There's no question that policy matters political philosophy matters in a very very prosperous country. You see at very little, but in this country more recently you have seen it illustrated in our daily lives, no question about it, and as far as the way, the the media treat this president. Never in my life have I seen anything. Like this. I have never seen anything like this what? The the accusation that he has Instigated trouble and division is rank nonsense. The problem with trump is that when people challenge him or when people in Seoul him or when people criticize him, he fights back other presidents. Typically have allowed the stuff to go on the problem. At some point is you're playing patty cake with evil and other words when China? Let's just go to China. When China is is doing nefarious things doing things that communist dictatorships do if you don't confront them on stealing intellectual property if you don't confront them on all kinds of. Malfeasance you're derelict as a leader, the president of the United States before trump have all been derelict or naive in dealing with China, and they have allowed. China to more and more effectively oppress its own citizens and so the idea that trump for years has been talking about this and suddenly says hey, what about this? Excuse me? What about that? What about these trade policies? This doesn't seem right. When when when somebody has the guts to fight, you know there's going to be some trouble in a sense, but if people had been fighting all along the way, we never would be here and I think that's the case of I refer to China, but it's the case with trump and the the liberal establishment. What we now call the deep state as as well. They've gotten away with murder in some cases literally, but but they. They have been allowed to to prosper and real leadership would have. would have taken them on so the idea that trump is taking them on they they've never been taken on. They've been allowed a free ride to to do as they like and to do many things that are fundamentally UNAMERICAN and fundamentally unconstitutional, and so he's taken them on, so he's willing to go to war with the press which I I've it breaks my heart John to see what happened. to to journalists and to the press. The I'd say to America. It's you know they effectively, don't they? They almost don't exist anymore. Really but also what's called the deep state, the big bureaucracy that exists in American government, which is fundamentally antithetical to who we are supposed to be were supposed to be small government self-governing the idea that that he has dared to to. To confront them has enraged them, and in their rage they taunted him more and he you know he won't take it lying down and so we're living in strange times, but it's it strikes me as a sign of great health that we have a leader finally willing to call us Betas Bait and say this is wrong. Help me understand what I missing because this seems to me wrong. Most Americans agree with him and incidentally cool elected Donald Trump. Here's the simple answer America every four years. We have a presidential election. We elected him so the disregard that some in the league classes have for him. the the the contempt that some of them have for him is a contempt for the American voter I. Don't know how else to see it. Every four years we have an election were bound to respect who occupies the office when Obama occupied it most people myself included who disagreed with his policies, sometimes strongly nonetheless respected the office of President and were compelled to respect him as the holder of that office that has gone away with trump, so it's a we're living in in very strange times indeed. I have to say no question. that's a very interesting reflection. You just magazine in other countries who say the among certain late Zeno stranded. Profoundly anti-democratic a Eddie. Democracy you dont support a latest. Full. Denies Legitimacy. You'll actually denying the. Choice? Your exulting it was ordering and that that is a big shift in America, but to pick up on the. Comment. You referred to New York, not being typical America. The reality is I think there are many America's and the the view we get of America in Australia is often Hollywood. Will Wisconsin race cuts? Yeah, I'll the former ambassador. WAS A. Legal later in Australia, men are enormous Gazal. Served it for very long in Washington and he might this and said you know we miss. The essential cultural family and should strength of Middle America that's snow commonly portrayed a you saying that stool strong and vibrant, and you'll you. There's no question. It's been strong since Tocqueville in eighteen twenty six. It's been strong since seventeen seventy six, and since seventeen fifty when George Whitfield was preaching up and down the thirteen colonies. It is the backbone of our liberty. We would have no liberty and no self government, if not for those good people who are virtuous, who govern themselves and by governing themselves enable self-government in the larger sense that is what has enabled America to the freest and most prosperous country in the world and. and. It's not because American people are better. American people are precisely like other people around the world. It is the the culture of self government that needs to be taught, and that was taught for generations, but that since I was a kid. A roughly speaking has ceased to be taught, so people don't understand how it works why it's good why it's fragile, and we have to make sacrifices to keep it. and we don't really talk so much about why it's worth fighting for and so most. Tend to take it for granted a tend not to see that it is a glorious privilege to live in a truly free country to govern ourselves. It's glorious privileged. None of us deserves it, and the least we can do is preserve it for future generations and try to help give it to the rest of the world, so that other people around the world can live this way, and not live under of you know tyrannous bureaucracies or tyrannous leaders. Leaders dictators it's it's just something that without any question I didn't discover until later in life and some making up for lost time by writing about it and talking about it, because I think that everyone in the world deserves the opportunity to really be free to be self-governing and to have economic freedom and economic opportunity. All of those things are are wonderful, but they don't exist in the state of nature. If we leave things, you know. Just to go as they're going to go, eventually you devolve whether to anarchy or tyranny to something less than what we currently still have on San. What your sign? It's always. A battle of the price of freedom is eternal vigilance as assayed Who's going to win in America, because it does seem that what you call the? What we might cool? The the elites, the mega fines the the the pretty powerful of pretty powerful pushing back against the traditional bases of American freedom. You get the impression. That that America is changing on this. This is Kim. Basinger former invested his point. He was saying. Don't miss the Great Bolo of Middle America. It's still much stronger than you think, but you yourself just saying they're not being told anymore. The kids opening tool. by Sal Freedom. remastered. Mostly that is true. When I see I speak all over America and meat, oftentimes young people who have gone to strong Christian schools, private schools of more often than that I meet people who have been home schools. They are going to take over the world. They are so well educated and so well verse in everything. We're discussing that they give me tremendous hope for the future of America. We are in a fierce battle, but I think the battle in which we find, ourselves is sign of Health and strength I think that the so-called deep state these bureaucrats who are really globalists in who are fundamentally anti. Anti American Anti Freedom Anti Liberty in the American model These people realize that they're in the fight of their lives. They don't WanNA lose and so they're fighting with all their might and main. They've never had to do that before they've gotten away. As I said earlier with murder figuratively and literally under previous administrations. This president is forcing them to fight, I think the strengths of. Those Americans who understand America and who love America is greater than the strength of our enemies, and we are willing to fight I also think if I can be blunt that God is on the side of those who WanNa fight for freedom God is not on the side of tyranny, whether it's bureaucratic tyranny or global cultural elite, tyranny or the tyranny of Kim, Kingdom John. Thune, so I really do believe that these things. Are. They may be a battle, but I have I have great hope their days when I have less hope, but most days I have absolutely great hope I see the decline of what have been the cultural leads that have held power I see their decline. the new. York, times for example, has devolved into A. Absolutely opinion journalism, they used to be the paper of record and they and many others who have a great name a great brand. They're living off their passed. When we say the New York Times, it means something while it isn't anymore what it means. The same thing could be said for all the elite institutions Yale and Harvard. They have gone so dramatically downhill and have have failed so spectacularly in the last decades there, simply clinging to their name and to their brand, but they are, they're effectively dead of you know whatever they were once they no longer are and I think that these things more and more and more are becoming clear to people I think the Kobe. Has Gotten tons of people to rethink the basics. Why don't I home school my kids? It hasn't been so bad and by the way they've been behaving better when they're home. What kind of influences have they been in at under at School You're seeing a lot of that. I. Think is going to be a lot of home schooling. That's GonNa go on, and this is you know below the college level, but I also think a lot of people are wondering. What am I paying for him? Sending my kid to this college maybe I. Maybe I WANNA rethink that and I. I'm just I'm convinced. John that. This This country America is was created by God to be a beacon of Liberty Lincoln. Our greatest president said that we are God's almost chosen people what he meant by that was that we've been given gift that we don't deserve. And that gift is to hold high the torch of liberty for the rest of the world, not for ourselves for the rest of the world to be a beacon of liberty, so that those in the Soviet Gulag would know that there. There are people out there fighting against them that there's a president named Reagan who speaks against The wall in dividing a Germany there are people all around the world looking to America and John winthrop of the governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony quoting the New Testament talked about about the Massachusetts Bay, Connie being a shining city on a hill which is of course, a profoundly Christian idea. It was picked up a by JFK and then by Reagan. It is an idea that people are looking to us for something, so we bear responsibility that goes far beyond our shores. The whole world wants us to continue to be free to cherish freedom to spread freedom a to spread opportunity to spread religious liberty. We forget how little religious liberty there is around the world how many people would face death for converting to a religion other than Islam for example and so I really I I have to say I'm hopeful and I don't think that. God is inclined to let America. Get what we deserve I think he's been gracious. Gracious to us, and has continued to be gracious, says in the bees these battles these the tumult in which were finding ourselves at present is a sign of health in the way that a fever is can be a sign of health. There's a battle going on. The staff of complacency is being ripped off by events that I'm falling around a sin what we see! The disastrous consequences I think authoritarian. sang's China's revealed. In recent times must have a lot of to say gee, He's a contrast, died actually WANNA lose our freedoms what we have eased that. And Islas Intrigue Salzer Lady rootlets not far from you recently in New York, and she was trump heiser, so it was a hospital. She was quiet stored. There was some of all. She looked at me intently and said that. What's your perspective is a strategy. You know strategy you see. What appalling leader cycle dis is he done? He's done nine. Go to told us from actually frontal stranded respect these cold out the Chinese. And she immediately backed off and she said yes. I'll have to concede he has done that. Is What that is. What that is huge if he did nothing else, if he if he never did anything else, that is absolutely huge. Imagine how derelict their previous presidents have been. How how impossibly inexcusably naive President Clinton was in allowing? you know most favored nation status to a country that so oppresses own people that has enforced genuinely racist policies. If you're a weaker Muslim in in China God help you. If you're a I. If you have a different religion. If you have a religion that you take seriously got help you. Most people in America were ignorant of this, but for the president of the United States to be ignorant of this, and then to help it then to use their ability to make policy to execute policy to contribute to the oppression of literally hundreds of millions of people in China is absolutely scandalous, so the fact that this president for everything that people say about him understood. The situation has been dealing with the situation. I just I. I cannot imagine what could be much more important than that. It's one point three billion people over there. It is a communist dictatorship former mayor Bloomberg of New York Insanely, said on on firing line on our PBS station here with Margaret Hoover that no, no, the it's not you know. Presidency is not a It is not a dictator I mean. You have to a wildly out of touch global elitist, not to see that human beings are suffering under communism around the world, particularly in China and not to be able to cheer someone who is trying to draw attention to it I'm really so thrilled. That trump is is is doing this and it's drawing some lines, isn't it and other you see that there are people you know the the National Basketball Association the NBA Nike Apple and others. They have been doing business with the devil. They have basically said if we can make some money. So what if there's slave labor going on or something like slave labor? We're going to look the other way. How is that any different than people who opposed wilberforce? Then? People who said look were making a pretty penny here. There has always been slavery. There's not much we can do about it. Let's at least make some money off of it for ourselves. There is nothing more despicable than that, and we have American companies that they don't deserve to be allowed to function in America if they don't have a modicum of appreciation for what American values are and the values of of Freedom Amar were. We're seeing this for the first time because this president. has done some things to allow us to see it, so we're. We're in in very good place in some ways. I would say that way. A very good place was caught up in a navy from some businesspeople in Australia freckly. About the Chinese and what they will take non the objective of the Chinese is brain disrupt full fair trading. Bryant's around will sit up inauguration supply chains, and to ultimately locked smashed capitalism, so not are they. Anything suggs. It's like dealing with the Mafia. If, we treat them nicely. Maybe they'll be a slightly nicer mafia. Maybe they'll kill and torture and maim a few less people. We can work with them I mean if those are our moral values your. You're the worst kind of Of Hypocrite and I have to say John. I have been most disappointed over the years in corporate leadership corporate leaders. Have lacked vision and have been the most craven cowardly shameful leaders. I have to say that That's something that's. You wonder what the founders you know Madison and Jefferson and Franklin and so on would have thought of some of these very very powerful corporations, which of course didn't exist to it in fifty years ago. Yeah a good question. Feleipe Yorker of Yours Henry. the commented that a little tried lost can be one back freedom. He's never accountable, and it was a free pretty in software map. Come to something that I thought was really interesting Utah Strong. You touchstone. It's the idea that knowledge is paps that some of the people who were kids that are being privately educated now taken out of the mainstream. Sermons veteran full. It reflects the fact that the mainstream educational institutions in Moscow the whist so woke us up Muslims or the. It's been the Long March to the institution. Their crippled with Cultural Marxism. There's no question about it. It's horrifying to say and to see, but there is no question what you're saying is a very interesting thing that the kids who frankly groups yeah will have massive disproportionate influence because they'll know what they're talking about in the future, they'll be able to critique. Problems point to answers and. He'd written a law is a historian. That's really what the hall wilberforce. It was without not. England was a very appropriate in a moral and bankrupt sort of it was a mess. When will before Sunnis? Holly righted gently researched. Always Spicy. So under country around turned to cultural. While listen first of all. We have to say that you know. In the Kingdom of the blind. The one eyed man is king right. It you have a world where people are ignorant on any number of levels, those who are less ignorant or who are not ignorant, will rise to the top, and we're talking about reality here. In other words we're talking about educating people along the lines that are continent with reality. This is not just my point of view versus someone else's point of view. We're saying that these are the systems. You know a healthy capitalism of virtuous capitalism a free market. Freedom of religion, a robust freedom of religion, and robust freedom and self government. This blesses people. This helps everyone to prosper. If you care about the poor and your for socialism, your fool, you are going to harm the poor if you wanNA claim that you care about the poor, you can do so, but in reality you're harming them so when you educate young people along these lines at it. It's no different than math. You're simply explaining this is the way things work historically. This is what happens when you do this. This is what happens when you do this. It's fairly simple. We can argue around the edges, but the basics are there and those people who have these ideas. Given a level playing field. There's no question that they're going to win. So as I say I I think that the election of trump. Itself Shows Great Health in America that people finally got fed up and and that even the. Republican establishment, many people had come to see that they really and truly were hardly any different from their Liberal Democrat. Colleagues said they weren't willing to fight the fights. They had been elected to fight, and they were allowing things to go in a certain direction, and that we needed to disrupt our. We needed somebody from outside the system so as I say I am hopeful, and I think there many many young people in America and many many very very faithful Christians who you know. They may not be invited to be talking on NBC or CBS or ABC or PBS, but they're out there and I. Meet them and I'm impressed by them and I i. know that they're the future. You know not just of America but of of free world. Well accrediting before as who listening, forgive me before opposite trade the church you in a little non. Spoke other derided nonentity straight comment. Any culture that wants to preserve freedom Moscow Saunders Jovan the story of its sights and a heroes. And that if you don than you live young people. Easily swayed as MOTT's fluid. Now you've been in the business of riding boots, particularly about heroes, and I give them walk freely like Confetti. the the by particularly. Your story on will be full. On grabbed. It's you give away are physically the young one understand culture. Member on the striving distance in America. Read this and you come away quits now you've written another one on era have near. Off The early one I haven't seen the new. If you get hauled up, so we can see it on the background. I'm sure I do someplace well. Basically John I never, and this is where I. I make no bones about the role of God. In my life, I can never pretend to have had the wisdom to say I I'd like to write biographies. Biographies I'd like to tell the stories of heroes, because it's an inspiring and because we need inspiration, nothing was farther from my mind, but God led me a circuitous way to write this book about Wilberforce and after I wrote the book about Wilberforce, I thought maybe I can write another biography who rises to the level of wool divorce. Dietrich von Hoffer. After written those two books, you know everybody's GonNa write about next and I thought there are so many stories and so many lives that need to be told in that need to be known, and that are not known, and so I thought, let me write. A book called seven men, telling the stories of seven men obviously much easier to read. Because you know you don't have to read the whole book, there's just a chapter, but it gives you the basics of it, and then I wrote seven women, and then finally really wrote. wrote seven more men because the list is virtually endless, and when you read these stories, you realize what you're not getting in school. You realize what you are never getting from Hollywood from TV from the Internet. These are real heroes. These are the kind of people who are not heroes, Du Jour like Bruce Jenner or whoever we want to throw up as wow, this is the new you know. Everybody should try to be like that. No, these are heroes who stood the test of time who have been self sacrificial To a huge extent, and that have done what God created them to do, and we're all beneficiaries of what these people have done. That's true greatness and I think that we used to tell those stories I think most cultures tell those stories. They celebrate the great figures in their culture. Something happened in the last. Let's say fifty or so years since we became you know woke since nineteen sixty eight. We sort of We have this anti Western narrative anti-american Narrative anti-heroin narrative. We talk about anti heroes. We celebrate Bonnie and Clyde, but we don't celebrate George Washington. That's a AH tragic mistake, and so in writing these books I'm really trying. To help educate a new generation about what real greatness isn't. Of course, these books aren't only written for young people written for any adults who can read, but you cannot fail to be inspired by these books, because the stories are real when you read it when you when you come across a life like like any of these people you say I i WanNa be like. Like that I I want my life to count I. Don't want to to just be a nobody doing nothing, I want even in my small sphere to do the right thing, and so I, do think it's important, and you know I'm one person, but I I'm doing what I can, and that, so the new book is called seven more men, and it has. Martin Luther about whom I wrote a biography. He's the first character. The second characters George Whitfield one of the most fascinating figures I've encountered in my life and evangelist. I would say is equal to George Washington in the role. He played in bringing about what we call. The United States of America absolutely stunning stunning story, so he's the second one, and then there are many others George Washington carver. I didn't really know his story. He was a black man of born during slavery times who rose through tremendous humiliations and difficulties to become one of the greatest scientists in the world, and a very humble Christian man worth the of knowing he, he's worthy of celebrating and The the second to last person in the book is Alexander Solzenitsyn another figure who? Many younger than we are might not know who he was and I think he was one of the greatest characters the twentieth century. If you want to know about freedom, if you WANNA know about totalitarian, oppression and communism read about needs, and so I think that you know they are. These are fascinating figures, and so I hope people will pick up a copy. While other to on Willison czar cannon, but tell me Martin Luther King Living Keaton as Smart Melissa. Is Zebra No, no, no no Martin Luther. King is not is not in my book, although I will tell you. It's good that you bring him up because right now. What is happening? Yeah, Floyd Situation I think to myself. There is no one who would be more horrified. No one who had been wrong it up. Then Martin Luther King Junior he was a Christian minister who went out of his way to do the Christian thing, he said we have to We have to behave with dignity. We have to be above. Reproach Rosa Parks was was the same and Jackie. Robinson was the same two great civil rights, heroes and leaders who also were profound Christians. They had a tremendous dignity and nobility that spoke volumes. What's happening now is a joke. People are using the excuse of what happened with George Floyd simply to loot to cause anarchy to burn down. Down the system to do what they can, they don't care about. George Lloyd a any more than a real racist. Would they are just using him? And he himself was a Christian. It's a grotesque thing when I think of how many African Americans I know who are profound Christians who believe in forgiveness not revenge, not vandalism and looting this is. Criminality it's nothing it's nothing less than criminality and the idea that these people ought to be given a pass to do this most of them. Honestly if you're protesting in a in a civil way, you have every right in America to do that, but to commit crimes as so many of these people are doing I also believe there's evidence that many of these people are not even from the local areas that this is a it's all ginned up and that through social media they're kind of gathering in these cities, and it's kind of a planned. You know anarchists rebellion, using the excuse of the horror that was perpetrated on. On George Floyd and we have to understand that these are you know are the equivalent of carpetbaggers these are not people from the neighborhood that most of them are are. Are you know they're they're? They're troublemakers. They despise America and any excuse. They can find to bring about you know cultural Marxism and or anarchy they will use, and that's exactly what's going on and I think that you know. The news will eventually catch up with that much more slowly than should. Yeah I I'm stunned at the way in which. I now. A little bit Martin Luther King an admirable man in many ways. We now know that he was a flawed man as well. but he, he wrote in the tree. Pacifism on nonviolent resistance is a courageous confrontation of evil by the Tau of lopped. It seems to me that many who claim follow these footsteps is civil rights activists. Display anything but love. It's more of a soda hydrogen content. Tools. This the is the antithesis of Dr King's vision, the absolute antithesis they celebrate hate. They revel in hate. There's no question they revel in hate. They celebrate revenge. Christians do not celebrate revenge. We may be tempted toward revenge, but we condemn it When we think of the Charlotte shooting, this this this young disturbed white man, killing nine Christians in cold blood I interviewed a number of the survivor's on my radio program. The Eric Metaxas, show which is also and Youtube. And they have forgiveness, and they preach forgiveness. It is the most dramatic example of Christian faith that you've ever seen that. These people who have every reason to be outraged to to be to be furious with anger and wanting revenge are saying no. No, no, no, we're Christians Christians. We don't see it that way. We pray for our enemies. We love our enemies We don't condone what they did. We don't make light of it, but we are humble enough to know that we too are sinners, and so we preach forgiveness, it is so dramatic and stands in such contrast to to the vile displays of revenge and criminality that we see happening right now that. That you have to know that if there is a god I believe that there is, but even if you're not sure you just look at the situation, you think. What are these people hoping to accomplish except you know getting out of their parents basement, acting out their fantasies of of mashing plate glass window, maybe stealing something's being hero among their friends, but they have no great goals. They have no great vision they they are failures, their societies, failures, and our leaders are enabling them and it will be to their eternal discredit. It said so it's a it's a grotesque paroxysm in our culture right now. I think we'll get through it, but it's. It's fascinating to see it happening. The the best non court in in this country. Anyway, visiting would be the one that. I think not into full wasn't drained when Macho of the judge on content of the act that the. He would surely look at the turn situation and think well many of my people many. African Americans now feel Johnston by the color of their skin. This spot the fact that in fact I mean. Jimmy Carter the hall something it was Mommy Signs Australian about. America was a disgrace. Civil rights movements achieved an enormous amount. Now Minder standing. Is that in fact the ticket on the trump? In recent times you live this. The major doesn't suit but middle black Americans might gripe. Progress Sabrina lot of jobs in a dramatic improvement in the disparity Thomas. C. By That's that's the difference between saying that you're for the poor or saying you're for blacks and actually helping them I think that. The Democratic Party they have had more than fifty years of taking the black vote for granted very cynically and to say that they've done nothing for. The blacks would be generous understatement. They have destroyed communities with their policies. When you look at Baltimore when you look at the inner city Chicago all around the country. These places have been under the power of democratic leadership. Leadership and the the living conditions the criminality, the lack of safety is unbelievable, and so I think that the democratic establishment is scared to death that black people will vote for Donald, trump or certainly will at least stay home and not vote for Joe Biden. Who his comment about? You know if you if you have trouble figuring out who to vote for, you ain't black. That level of condescension has always been there. But nobody's been You know dumb enough to say it. He said it and I think that there are a lot of people thinking. I'm not doing so well, before this pandemic. You know I got a job under this trump economy, I really think that the the Democrats in. In large part because of their fear that their number is up finally. They are doing things that are. Much worse and were dramatic than anything they've ever resorted to before. I think that the the the Mueller investigation, the Russia hoax I mean. Can you imagine years from now? We're going to look back at this Russia. Thing and we're simply going to laugh. That did that really happen? I mean it's like the Salem. Witch trials. It makes the McCarthy Communist stuff. Look like you know it made sense. It is a a a level of madness, but. But they've been willing to do almost anything and they've had enough power that they've been able to get away with it. Maybe not ultimately, but they've been able to pull it off to impeach the president on run I I think that there's a level of desperation which reveals that they. They know that their that their days are numbered. and I think that's as it should be I think the American voters will do the right thing. Thank you so. It's a different view of America to the one. We're getting round meteor monmouth that you've given us today. I think Australians Newfield affinity with America and. at a time when look really had used the term. The scaffold places he pulled off in Australia. We've managed covid nineteen quote will out this four hundred thirteen about four or five. Did your at around six hundred million America? Would think because of the wind the New York Saints Spring, Light Up. was the worst bison will, in fact, as man is much better than your you'll. Men In that how? Maybe Little Hof. Europe's sing. So, it is a different story, Eric Buxom it would certainly be my hope and my prayer that America can rise above this division. It is will sort of Bacon full. Freedom and hope. And for some degree justice globally we need to recover because democracy frankly spanning French grams lows. Well you know John I. Think I feel very strongly that the truth will win in this in this situation I think that again. The media that the democratic leftist establishment. They know that they've had their season and finally people have seen through them and they. They are They're acting out very very dramatically. These are these are death rose ultimately. There's a battle. It's a fierce battle, but it's a battle worth fighting. How many people have died for freedom over the centuries over the decades I think it's a battle worth fighting. There are many many people around the world. Who See these things? Maybe they don't. They don't talk about it or somebody calls them. THEM UP, says who you're voting for. They don't they don't say anything, but people see what is happening and I I really do believe that you know there are. There are great things ahead I. don't say that lightly. We're going through a very tough time right now, but I'm absolutely convinced that God has his hand on the free countries. Countries of the West and once historically has created them to spread that freedom to the whole world so I I really don't think We're about to go down for the count by any means. I have great hope and every day on my radio program I interview fascinating people who who talk about these things because I do think we need to. To talk about them, and so I'm I'm so grateful to you for letting me mouth off on your wonderful program for for as long as an hour, but I I I just want you to know that means a lot to me that you give me the opportunity because these are these are very tough times, and these are important things to talk about. Lyric again, thank you very much. You mentioned that we can get on your radio program by so. That's. Applying for that, and can I just say a guy I, love your books, and and the one of things a clear and Chris writings terrific. You've got a tremendous sense of humor comes through it brilliantly, so those are great reading for anyone who is what it means. To me I think that's very important on my radio program as well. I think that we. We ought to have fun You know as a Christian I say. I've I've read the book. and things turn out in the end. God Wins and we need to know that when we're going through it and we've been going through it, and but we need to. We need to celebrate in the midst of the battle. So spent thanks for appreciating that, and for your for your kind words. It means a lot to me that appreciate books. Thank you, thank you. You've been listening to John Anderson Direct for further content visit John Anderson Dot net dot Edu.

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John Anderson Direct: With Dr. Warren Farrell, Author, Educator and Activist

John Anderson: Conversations

59:14 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson Direct: With Dr. Warren Farrell, Author, Educator and Activist

"You're listening to John. Anderson Direct with Warren. Farrell, please note. That John Anderson direct is recorded live via online streaming, which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum. FERAL! It's just terrific. Talk to your guide. We met in your hand on the West Coast of America some months ago and recorded a compensation which I feel very valuable, which many Now we find ourselves in vastly different circumstances, and on talking to from the living room of my home in northern New South Lyles on farm. Your time I'm sitting here with a copy of your book yours in John Gray. The boy crosses, and I'm going to give it another blog I decided. Not any of I founded valuable I think people should get themselves a copy and do an ID then get several copies and give it today, friends and anybody that I think might benefit from it i. think is incredibly valuable work. But I wanted to talk to you in the context of the impact of covid Nineteen Karen Avars. On families and individuals who suddenly found the world turned upside down. They thrown together. You recently published a very interesting. Pay solve a WICCAN. I was copied in. Talking. EVATT, how many people when they together find in family circumstances in fact, grownup hop on that's very difficult and shows off in the numbers and clothing and countries like China and Japan was to stick suggests that. The Vossen domestic, violence. Are OPPA known astride a domestic violence reporting has risen quite substantially. And you talk about the opportunities for families to be quite intentional, particularly in writing the boys and I'd love to explore these issues I. Thank you very much indeed for putting up with before seconds on or Totally a pleasure speaking with you, so this is not a putting up fish. Side could we begin? What what can you tell us you're? You're brilliant. Researcher keeps a finger on things. On what's happened? On intensive family relationships, what's happening? In lockdown. Around the world and your country perhaps I we know from some of the work that's being done in Australia that there's some good news people reporting more time with their children and cycles of quite a bit of bad news about the stresses of peddling thrown together. When perhaps they're not on the sideline in the why they will be. There's a huge difference between families where they are. The have live paycheck to paycheck, and you know the the. The covid experience of being unemployed Ed End where the father and mother are unemployed, and then suddenly that is really a key economic catastrophe and know there. If they don't have family that they can turn to for earning money that family. That has a little bit more than they have They're oftentimes quite in crisis and and there's also a there have been checks coming from the government to almost all these families and so that's taken a little bit of the crisis off so. So that's that's the that's the group that is in the most precarious situation. the second group of Hoy. D- that Dad's especially who have had more time with their family than they've ever had before, and in that group of Kobe's allowed a mini dads to discover that his children need a dad's time as much as they need dad's dime. And that's a discovery that most fathers had never had a chance to the to make, and once the data sitting down, and even inadequately mathematically because he doesn't remember Algebra tried to struggle with his son on Algebra, Algebra or working with his son to share some family responsibilities. Dad's tend to do a lot with their sons daughters, and so if they're if they're making pancakes, a teach them how to make an Outta, crack the eggs, and so on they they don't of their. Inclined to the Child, sit and watch them, but rather do with the emperor both chilled. Both girls and boys works well for boys at works exceptionally well, and so that creates a bond that oftentimes has never been between a dad and child before a mother is experiencing the father because he's home if he's unemployed, and seeing the the father can and. And Will share the housework and share responsibilities that he hasn't shared before. allows a lot of women to see that the real difference was that the father was out air forty hours a week in commuting another young eight or nine hours a week and the, but if he was home, he would be able to be more connected with the children. The big challenge is whether the family knows how to communicate when they have more time together, and that's the one of the big differences between families that are really discovering each other during the Kobe crisis or discovering each other in a more negative way that you know. Why are we married and and And that's of course led to the enormous increase in filing for divorce in China and Japan and many of the other countries that are sort of moving through the process of having ahead extended period of time where the families have lived together. Well. I'd love to school. At aspect of relationships with children fathers in a moment, but before we do. You're right and I find you'll, you'll live with which is printed. Recently But the catch twenty two. Is often in the area of communication, and you said the Achilles heel of all humans is our inability to handle personal criticism from a loved one that becoming defensive. Love solve a problem because the more deeply resolvable vulnerable. We feel vulnerabilities mosque. He's anger to avoid anger. We walk on eggshells and soon bank together leads to feeling pop. And so. Just like to explore for a moment if you'll thoughts on. What advice you would give to people who a finding that thrown together. They haven't apart, so we're really talking about moms and Dads e because that seems to be critically important. Phil have children do. It's great for getting more time with that. But what are they saying? Mom and dad come patch You do a lot of work in this area, not really like to hear your thoughts on. My work in this area started from seeing that when I did. You know what I was doing research for what eventually became the boy crisis I started to see will the boy crisis often results from families who divorce and divorces of? Often, leads to a lack of father involvement, and particularly the boys and girls who didn't have a significant amount of father involvement after divorce that was a strong component of what became the boy crisis. The girl suffered from lack of father involvement, but the boys suffered more intensely, both the girls and boys suffered in more than fifty developmental areas, but the but the voice suffered more densely those areas. The boys were far more likely to commit suicide before depression. Withdraw into video. Gains withdraw into pornography. and sit have become alienated become purposeless become failures to launch, and there were much more likely to move back into their families homes. It used to be after college. women would be much more likely to move back into their their families homes Go into the basement, and so on now boys in the United States is sixty six percent more likely. Move into their families, homes and so. I started seeing a lot of this was happening so I started tracing it back and saying okay, if the if the boys are particularly suffering as a result of divorce, what? We need to try to prevent divorce, but you can't legislate against people. Getting divorced is very dysfunctional keeps a lot of people together. That's that are not meant to be together. But would you can do is improve the communication to keep people together. However, I started seeing that. The Achilles heel of all human beings is inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive so I said I started saying to myself well. The couples communication workshops that people do that must teach them up defensive, but I found that the couples workshops that work that were existing around the world. Ra- mostly giving couples insights insights to themselves insights into relationships with the moment criticism occurred, they lost the ability to attach to those rational insights all the all the rational learnings they had done in couples workshops went out the window, and they moved back into city, becoming defensive with each other, so people became afraid to bring up to their partner. What was concerning them because the last five times? They brought up with their concerns. Were there owner their par- became defensive, the and the the whole process escalated, and it only became an angry battle back and forth the children. We're witnessing it. They were they were just saying themselves and less might consider. It is super large I'm not going to bring it up at all. And those things oftentimes became a anger inside themselves at that that at one point on came out likable Keno, and no was taught to understand that anger is vulnerabilities mask people when they see anger, they see power. They develop fear. Fear as opposed to being able to be trained to look at that angered say anyone that gets angry at me with my child, my wife, my husband underneath that anger is almost always vulnerability, a feeling of not being heard on, and so I started asking myself well. How do I get couples to respond non defensively to personal criticism and the answer was it? It's biologically natural to become defensive when you're criticized, so the job is to do a work around to that biologically natural propensity to be defensive when criticize and the workaround is a is. Is Altering your natural biological state so what I teach couples to do is. Only do concerns or criticisms once a week, and only one the May report concern you have. And, the rest of the week to develop a conflict, free zone and I teach people how to sustain that conflict free zone. During the course of the week, so if somebody brings something up during the week that is upsetting to them, and they're ready to pounce back their partner for bringing for a different perspective on that I I teach them to take. Take that anger and. And to do something like journal on it, and the first step of the journaling should be that you write down all the reasons why you're right and your partners off, and then you then step two is writing down this one thing that your partner might have been right about step three is maybe a few things you could have done differently, and then ultimately you do all the sound of an empathetic type of. Possibility for with your partner, then when it comes to that the the end of the we are whenever you set aside each week as what I caught carrying sharing time at that point, you move into a number of mindsets before you hear your party's criticism so I. I received from Your partner, a couple of appreciations and teach people how to do Grecian's much more specifically than people are trained to do, and then after you hear very specific appreciations from your partner, you move into hearing, just one concern that your partner has, but before you hear that concern, you do these six mindsets that I've. I've found were the best one of those mindsets. Is What I call a love guarantee, and that love guarantees saying to yourself okay of if I provide a safe environment for my partner, being able to say whatever sheer he wants to say, my partner will feel more heard by me if they feel more heard by me, feel more loved by me if they feel more loved by the loved me more so by providing a safe environment for matter how much anger my partner has I'm the more anger. My partner has the more impressed. My partner will be that I'm just sort of. Providing a safe space for them to be able to express their feelings, but the irony is that the moment you provide that safe space your partner senses that you're providing the space so that they don't need to become angry in order to be heard, so the anger disappears because the arteries feeling heard, and you know another thing that I do. That's really fascinating is having everybody in the workshop? Fill out privately a an identical piece of yellow paper in which they answer the question if your partner was about to die. And you knew with one hundred percents certainty that you could save your partner's life, but you'd have a fifty percent chance of dying yourself. Would you do it and then step? One is as one is yes, answer to is no answered. Three is uncertain. Thing that's changed from normal life as I say, Olympic make believe you didn't have childrens. Children are concerned, but in terms of caring for your partner. Would you die for your partner or not? Will over the these couples come to my workshop? Maybe a quarter. Then we're coming. Julie for improving the relationship about half had a rocky relationship, and maybe another quarter coming are the verge of divorce, nevertheless about ninety five percent of the men say. I be willing to take a fifty percent risk of dying in order to save my wife, and about eighty five percent of women say they would do that for their for the man that they're that workshop with some married some nut, and so it gives l. most everybody in the workshop. This enormous experience a wait a minute. If I would die for this person that I love, certainly I can listen to them. Dying is a lot more challenging than just listening for fifteen minutes, and so with mindset's like that they alter their natural propensity for defensiveness, and they hear out there partners concerns, but they have that caring and sharing time on the calendar every every week all the time. They know that if there's something that happens in, they're really angry at their partner. They must go through a process of doing things like journaling. And many other options, and then that they will always be heard more during that carry insuring time, and they will at the moment. In which they can be guaranteed pretty much that the fight will. The disagreement will always escalate and allow people not to do to do that once. The the parents learn that the children see the parents communicating that way. It prepares the children to be able to handle different difficulties. They have with their friends with their boyfriend or girlfriend, because they have so many things built in the first time, I daughter came to me and had problems in a relationship and She and her boyfriend asked they could see me privately. And I started sharing some of these things my daughter goes. Oh! That's you mom do all the time. Now I didn't even know that she was picking these things up. So is almost every pair. It will will acknowledge their children's see a lot of things. That are by example that they don't even really articulate that they've seen her understood, but they start behaving that way accordingly. That's and so that is what. Needs to is an example, the primary thing that needs to happen and and then the secondary thing that needs to happen is Is this type of behavior happening at family dinner nights, and so stood up in the boy. Crisis Bendix that comes up so frequently. During the the the the course of the of the book. That I decided to sort of. Construct the each of the steps that a person needs family needs to take to make sure that every person in a family dinner night does not have a family dinner night. To evolve into a family dinner nightmare, but everyone knows how to listen to everybody else that family. And listened to them no matter how fiercely they disagreed. With with them, listen I, and then then and not only the Perez to listen to the child, but also the children learning to listen to the parents, so that children learn that our family is a team I'm not the only one that gets listened to Everybody at this table gets listened to hurt. Wore I think that's gold of Iowa on potted up and provide free of charge to every family in the country. But given a lot of people at the moment, probably cop move around unsure about way to get good advice. The heating what you're saying the importance of getting their relationships into a good place, not just for themselves, but for the children. Where did I fawn resources support from your book? What can you put them to? And and we'll put it up on the screen as well. Yes and I didn't have a really good answer to that. Question Sir Percival doing counseling with any good counsel you get a reputation has a good reputation in your area is almost always very helpful. However, this beans, a great many families cannot afford this and some of the families with the least amount of education and emotional training at training, incident, nuance and things like this. Can Afford it and so the great. The the one for me. One of the things that this copay period has has allowed. Is it because all my flying to speaking engagements and workshops in these issues have been? Canceled! Is Giving you the time to take this couples workshop and put it on in zoo, and so at the end of June. It'll be available so and I'm GONNA. Make it available for very inexpensive price, so that families don't have to be middle class or more to be able to to to be able to see. And experience, this material and away one of the things that more valuable than me being there is that once I go through the entire workshop with a couple of couples and other people can see it they can. They can go. They can review it. Review it as often as they need to. to be able to refresh their Just refresh their their training of themselves in that area so. Agree happy to say that that's something. I'm looking forward to to making available to so that you'll be able to say, mention it to people, Australia and and have that available for them. Let me! Move on to. something else that interests me Do you think that for a lot of parents? In a night when the suggestions in there that if you're not happy in a relationship. It's in your interest to get out of it. And it's in your children's interests, not to be unhappy around them. Do you think there's an incentive? For a lot of people now. To. The derives from seeing their children. Not Thrive. To sold out their relationship to recognize the importance all doing better in their relationship with the repair. I cannot I. Have I. Have Been Educated Myself on this issue. from was as. Somebody who always believed that people should live be fulfilled, and so on I used to feel that. You know if you don't get along and you haven't got long for extended period of time and. You should be able to get divorced, etc. Yes, you should be legally able to get divorced. However, the culture needs to send the message that that a great many a good part of the reason that people don't get They? Get get divorced and don't stay married together. Is because they don't feel heard by their partner. And they endure number two I've said have gone over that issue already. That number two is that there's no cultural appreciation for the value of Dad's style, parenting and mom style parenting, and the difference is that are natural to that. Those two different styles just pick up something that does concern me Many of those who listening will be thinking well. Unfortunately, we've already banks for the divorce prices or not in contact with my children. I was will be signed on looking after children, but the mother or the father's usually foul courses to six reveal that. You Got I. Think Probably Third Off. Of? Tonight's children who are not living with Vice Chancellor, some sections over community DABAL. Advice without being judgmental wanting to be fast, can we offer? At two people who look after the children, but The relationships between the parents not intact. Some not how India moves to do the best possible for those children on two things, one is to the most frequent Way. This breaks out of course is the mother has the children more than the father has the children and and so one of the values of Ma? If if among okay, let's take the bigger picture this throughout history we've every generations had its war and when we sought, we told been. You are needed to serve. Men were willing to give up their lives in order to serve to because they were told they were needed. While when a mom tells learns what the value of Dad's style parenting is, and tells a Dad I real- you well I'll give a specific example from my wife, said about her former husband He used to allow her to sit of the. He used to loud. The children to sort of get involved at situations which which she felt was dangerous. Now in retrospect, she realized that they really were a dangerous, but they might get a little bit hurt, and so she would always of like withdraw from valuing the fact that the children might be put in harm's way minor harm's way, and so he after while withdrew, withdrew, and eventually got involved with another woman who seem to want to have him around her children, and so, what what the first thing that needs to happen is a mom needs to study. Study one of the values of the different types of ways at Dad's parrot, and then you late need to let him know two things one is that you knew that these have values like the rough housing like the the willingness to have the child climate tree, and number two that the children don't you usually evaluate? But the children need that input from him and that you didn't realize you that you didn't realize that before and hit and he never said that to you before. Except maybe an anger or sarcastic terms, and so and now you're willing, not now. You're not really hearing that, but you need him to be part of that child's life, and you need him to not only set boundaries like you do as mom, but also to enforce the boundaries that you said and be willing to have the children be Be Angry at you for forcing those boundaries on which often a mom was set boundaries statistically MSA set boundaries. More frequently than Dads do a bit dad's enforced boundaries much more frequently than moms. Two moms have to be able to communicate with DAD's that they're really of value and know that there needed that said maybe the dad is really a very destructive personality a violent person. is not really a good a good. Being or at least has learned to develop himself into being good human being if that's if the is dangerous to the child, then there are other options. It's really important for you. As a mom to get your children involved with the faith, based community with where you have a good of minister, priest Rabbi Imam to be able to WHO's good leader that you trust and make sure that you encourage that leader to get get boys on your child's age, or girls, your your daughter's age to be able to talk with each other about their feelings and their fears. Girls are much better about doing that. Naturally boys are. Are, terrible. Doing method that naturally hard of masculinity is wearing a mask by which you sit a project that you're strong. Even when you're feeling weakened insecure, it's essential that boys be exposed. Other boys in a confidential setting that the that the children are that the boys are allowed to talk about outside of that circle so that no, there's no fear sharing their abilities That's very important. It's very important to get your boy. Your son and daughter involved with sports. All sounds to me like a recipe full sound. Real. And alike disciplined approach to parenting into law. If I have a huge with Jonathan Height, this dumb. And he says. Often No attempt to do the wrong thing, just the opposite the right thing we rice children to to, if you lot full for three major fallacies -versities. That what doesn't hurt? You will make weaker instead stronger. I. We don't take resilience. Toughness had learn from the things that got wrong. Because things do your own. The second thing he says is always trust your feelings will. That what looks Nice I think I'd feel good. If I had a swimming ignore. Last saw says there are crocodiles in he. But the third thing he says that I think he's really interesting is teaching our children. Law is ballots went good people and bad payroll now properly, functioning family, which with husband or with the mother and Fowler or father figure. We hype they can be the. Demonstrate the reality. People have differences. That were all a mixture good bad. No one has a monopoly on perfection thing Rydell on that tough things. Do happen the way we was bombed as important we cannot. Pretend. They're not there all. Remove out children from all difficulties. That's not real. And we need to learn to sink. What he is saying! Is that a properly functioning family with all of the things? The option Danza family laws. Will be very well equipped to teach their children. The realities of life, and that part of it because a firm. Self discipline on the part of the parents, but also an appropriate discipline of the children. ABS-, absolutely I totally agree with height and also feel that. Even if you have those insights at highest talking about, and you have those insights, but you cannot. Feel that those insights will be heard by your sister your brother. Your mother your father. Or your children That leaves you oftentimes seen as the parents that sit of. Unnecessarily mean, and what I need to do is ask. That question of my mother has permission for that from my mother as permission for that or If a if a if daddy has a girl a daughter that he can wrap her wrap him around her fingers. you know jet? She goes to daddy to get what she wants a on some things and goes to mom and things, and so when that's not disgusted, a family table and everybody is in her like the brothers doesn't say no I feel like you often give into Krista much more frequently than you do to me and use the double standard that I see that makes enough. You'll love devalued and the and the and. And the parents just interrupted say while you're very lucky diet, and this in the in the boy just feels dismissed as opposed to really hurt like it must be really challenging to be feet AC- this happen, and you know feel love by us. and what would if you were? If you were in our position? What would you do? It's very important to ask your children. Lots of times make believe you're us now and were you How would how would you do that? I remember asking my daughter that wants. One of my daughter set ones. and. She just came up with We. Were being I was. We were doing something a little bit discipline and she said I said to her. You were the pair of what would you do here and she said. I do exactly what you're doing because I see what the purpose wasn't that. She reeled off the entire purpose of it and the value of it. She says but I'm the kid and I want to argue against you. And, so but the thing is a. she got it in the back of her mind, but be what the question did was a asking her to role play. The Parrot got it brought that for just a short period of time to the front burner as opposed to just sandwich conveniently on the back burner and so. We need to ask her kids to. Perform and disciplined and have that discipline. And the the attitude that we've come to know the helicopter parents that over protects is definitely training a child to not have a life which that is able to to to go through the To go through the top things in life, which require discipline as well as a dream, having said that sometimes a dad in particular will be will take the tough love role without allowing his child to hear and I mean verbally here that I wanted to. I love you it you as a dad. You've got to tell that your children that you do love them. Sometimes when the when the father overtakes the tough position, he doesn't share the love position the below feeling and a hold, his child and nurturing child often enough, and so the child feels more like the father is. doesn't like him or her or doesn't respect them or just around somebody to be. Ignored because he's too, or he's always going to discipline me so interestingly, when a father is in a divorce situation has the child in by himself, he tends to do a greater balance between the discipline, and the nurturing the of the the love in the holding and the discipline, whereas when the mother is in the picture very frequently, the father will leave the nurturing, and the I love you, and the I protect you to the mother, and take the the tough love position but the tough love is called tough love because the love needs to be expressed as often as the tough and so important message to dad is. A is don't let ma. Don't let the willingness of MOMS to protect love and nurture Take away from your letting your children know how much you love them. How much you care about protecting them, and that your method of protecting them, which is less protection oriented is not is because you want that to to give them long term, protection and long term effectiveness in life. And all of that happens best around a family dinner table which is constructed in such a way as to be A. To be a fascinating dinner conversation. Appearance often say to me I can't get my children to put down their religion phonics at the dinner table while soon as I hear that from appearance I know at the that that parrot. that. The children are in charge of the parent. Not The parent in charts of the children that. Yeah, there is so many things you give to your children that you can just say No, it's the electronics are not allowed at the table, and if you wish to, you have the electronics of the table, your be no dessert tonight they'll be. Be No this they'll be no. That won't be paying for the for the for the bill on that The computer will be taken out of your room the kitchen, so we can know what you're doing and sooner or later, the child will get the point that there's no There's no electronics at the table or she or he will suffer a lot more. Than than they were before, and also the importance of that those conversations when you are able to when everybody at the table is trained to listen to each other, the conversations can be extremely controversial. They can talk about things that most families will talk about things like sex. Two things about politics, things that are that are politically incorrect and boys in particular light talking about controversial things. oftentimes they don't like talking about controversial things with their parents, because their parents will just squish it, the conversation or just of Yo. They'll give politically correct answers When their feelings can be fully heard, then it becomes exciting, and when kids who are neighbors or friends or from school, come over and have dinner, and they hear these conversations going into college into controversial areas, but everybody being will to be heard at the dinner table I mean the kids neighbors friends school. They're very interested in in having to being involved at having dinner with the family that could really talk with each other, because that's an exceptional family, and so this ends up bringing. Admiration and respect from schoolmates to your children's lives and creating much greater, social psychological development and emotional intelligence. Science I on we. You're not going to because we. I think both care about human flourishing of what happens to children along those lines. That let's shift what it means. Rap Culture FRAPP countries for future. It seems to me that. A wise American senator is nine montcalm about forty years ago. I read said something along the lines of America in the end is nothing less and nothing more than sometimes you all individual Americans and to the extent that individual Americans flourishing in Ireland contributes and some sample, the nation flourishes to the extent that the damaged Martin laws. Culture, Sophos there is a very real dimension. Time in lost. To the Hull Christian. Families? Coherence and Cooperation, this is bright down the wine which children arised? And the sort of future, the Thi- themselves will enjoy. Now you have actually put a lot of how numbers around the very real cost taxpayers. Of family disintegration, and particularly all of men falling through the cracks can be just briefly. Be a good thing to remind ourselves. That there is a very high cost to family breakdown absolute in just a couple of real. Quick examples of says that. As. I studied every school shooter in the Twentieth First Century. Since the year, two thousand that we look at the the ones that killed ten or more people every single. One of them have had in common two things. One is being male and number. Two is being male, a male who deduct minimal or no father involvement. What I call it. Dad depri- mail. And we look into the prison. Population of the prison population is about ninety three percent in the United States mail now, but almost about ninety percent of those males are dad. Deprived males what what we what we see. Is that the the cost of this what I calculated the cost of children being brought up with dead dad deprived children is about a trillion dollars in federal spending each year. This is just federal spending to say nothing of state and local spending on nothing about the the cost of cleaning up the crime, the cost of keeping people in prison the cost of homeland security. This is almost all is almost all triggered by DAD deprived children. And, mostly by debt deprive almost completed by dad deprived male isis recruits was as a third area Isis recruits are not only ninety percent male but there're but the males and the females who are isis recruits are are booth, dad, deprived males and females for the most part, and so the the the price that we pay for the divorces from the lack of good communication that leads to the divorces that leads to the lack of father. Involvement is an enormous price. When may would boys hurt voice? who heard tend to hurt us? they act out girls who heard will with will withdraw. They will be depressed or Withdraw Express their feelings. Though cry. They'll ask for help. Girls are far more likely to ask for help than boys are, and so, who has a result of girls asking for help? They're far less likely to get to the place of being so depressed and withdrawn that the end up doing school, shootings or mass shootings, or are or being isis recruits, being a being criminals and so There's an enormous economic costs and it cost in terms of having huge government become a substitute husband What because leaves the? The when boys too badly, then girls are willing to marry those boys, nor should they marry those boys and young men when they don't marry those boys, young men. They're bringing up. Families by themselves are often overwhelmed. They they have They can't keep up with both the the family and the type of job that they would like. They often need money from the government to do that. So, the government becomes a substitute husband. For for the girls and young women, and the and the and the government is a paying enormous cause for homeland security to protect themselves against isis recruits. Their. Over securitising. Schools and an and the the Washington. DC Now almost every building which used to be beautiful buildings that you had nice access to as a has these barriers in front of it to prevent cars or Trucks from going up in Butler putting a bomb in front of the building, and so you know the not only does the feel of the place look less free. But the costs of maintaining those securities against A to bed, the the secondary outcome of families dipping deteriorated, and therefore individuals in those families, being failures to launch being suicidal, being depressed taking drugs, taking opioids do in schools, not preparing themselves by being unmotivated, not preparing themselves to be good workers by not being good workers this set of Paying taxes they ended up being a drain on the taxpayer, a unan taxes and creating a bigger and bigger government to take their hair, people or less than less emotionally, healthy, less functional, and one of the solutions to this needs to be every single school needs to be have have communication training in first second grade early schoolteaching his head here each other listen to each other and because the bullies, and the believed have a lot in common, which is usually a lack of self esteem. Over at makes a resounding sense to me not to move to a topic. That's highly sensitive. Get you can get you a lot of trouble, but seems tomato be unbelievably important because I think a great deal more honesty and we say in the public to buy. In, the context of the mates huma. The horrendous issue family bombs in this country. is now seeing as saying. Women are always right. Whenever Domestic Baez is involved. Is Boy suspenseful now? I dont from excuse any man but involved. I find it about I. Don't understand I can't comprehend how. Man Produce Physical Strength to attack. A PERSON! That's that's made personally, but what really worries me about this? Is that what you're not allowed to talk about it seems. Is the men not doing well? You've written extensively about this men, and all doing well and you sight men and doing well. That native safes is doing well, but you're not allowed to talk about. In Orlando. Talk about and you'll also not. Academy allowed to talk about the. Influence all. The Family Hon. On young people, particularly young men. This really worries me that we need to be more Osman Biblical suicide numbers tell you. The figures of you've just talked about. Tell you. Population numbers. Men In many ways. silence sufferers, not doing well and whip pretending and I think that's would use advisedly that we can fix up the problem of the mystic spa, simply science. All man's false. where? I actually think mandating have a long hot looking. Way Audio of ballots bang acceptable. To Arise Not Wanting to be too long winded because we want to hear you, not me, but. An Alderman I respect happily married, NAFTA probably sixty years. said to me the other night when he was growing up. He was told. In no uncertain terms buys She was threatened the COD will. She had groceries, but he was to stand aside. Let her through the door I. When I went back into the house, and if he didn't listen to, her, mom would come down on breaks. And he might combing. That he wanted so I posed this question whether a man who had taught as a kid to respect women in that way. WOODALL could even turn out to be violent. So, there's a bunch of issues in there. Don't we need to be honest about the fact that? I'm in a not doing well, and it starts with a hive environment. Yes, yes, there's a huge amount packed in there and the huge amount of on sort Sorry I'm bring more as this. That's wonderful. really is. So I first of all the the best solution to domestic violence is being able to hear each other if you're if you're hearing your partners upset and your partner then has no need to have to raise her voice. to be sarcastic, sarcasm raising one's voice. Comes as a result so for example, if F F. my wife is talking with me. and and she says you know Warren. You really did this terribly thing today and I go. Wow, tell me more about that. The chances of her hitting me. go way down the, but if I, if I, if I listened to her for a few seconds, and then I interrupt her then I argue with her, and then she tries to, and then I distort what she's saying, and she feels really frustrated and then so she starts to back and explain what why, how I just distorted it, and then I- distorted again and interrupt or again and argue back to get accused Roh something I keep sidestepping counterattacking should get angry, angry angry, and she might hit me because she's so frustrated and I'm so interface and. And so and so, what's just happened? There is that by not hearing her effectively I've made her feel more and more vulnerable, and that Boehner ability has led to her slapping me because she was out of control at that moment, and so that's the fundamental. Let's be behind almost every time. Someone hits another person. is that anger is almost always vulnerabilities mass as the first understanding they have to have that the solution to that is learning how to hear the people we love and have a hear anybody, but particularly the people we love is the single biggest solution to domestic violence number to. Somebody might be listening to this or Creating an excuse for men being violent to women most deal with that strain on. I would never seek to avenue, but it's. Certainly wouldn't put somebody trying to. Understand that yeah, and so we now have more than one hundred studies mostly American Besam from. England Europe and Australia as well that have been done of domestic violence. The first ones were done in the nineteen seventies, and they asked men and women. Who Were Who did you ever hit your partner? Your partner ever hit you. And the and the results were in the nineteen seventies that the men The the women hit the men as. As the men at the women will shamanists objected to that and said wait a minute. You haven't asked the women. The women tell the truth. Men Don't and so the. There's a real problem with leaving that. Only one sex tells the truth, but we'll get to that moment. The Joe Biden is finding out the problem with that. And the and so the the next thing that happens was it so they is nick surveys that were done. Asked two questions that were different. They asked the women. Were you the first one to hit the man or was the man the first one to hit you? They found that more women in relationships said that the man that they were the first one to hit their husband. or their male partner Ben Than than the other way around, so the women acknowledged that they were the first ones to do it and of the male more than the other and the mail said the same thing that the women were the first ones to hitting. They just said into a higher percentage, a the male the female acknowledged it so the next response on the part of him, as was her will wait a minute. The when the men had they really hurt. The women and women hit. They don't hurt the man, so they started doing a scale of the amount of violence, and and then that was at became. The seven dimension scale from You were slapped by your partner. You were punched by your partner. Your partner hit you with something your partner through something at Your partner stabbed to your art air Shochu your part, and then of course is the partner killed you? The people aren't around to answer. The question is that what has entered a little bit differently but let's take the first six holes I. The the first six levels the women and even the women answered that they were the ones to be more violent, and this is only slightly more frequently. Than the men at each of the seven different levels of violence of a six different levels and violence short of the killing. The men answered that the women were considerably more likely to do. The the women just entered very slightly more likely to do it at each of those six levels. except for the. In dating relationships dating violence, the women acknowledged much more islands toward their male dates. than the female, then then they were the first. They were the first ones to hit their boyfriend versus their boyfriend hitting them, so the gap is much larger female to male violence among data dating people once they're in relationships, and once they're married it becomes more even. So the the the big thing around this is. Why do we only think that data? The violence domestic violence is female as male to female and not male to female and not male female to Male, and so the feminists said well, that's because it just isn't true so many feminist to started doing the research on their own, and so about seventy eighty percent of the studies of the hundred studies that I was mentioning of domestic violence around the world We're done by women, and about eighty ninety percent of those women were some version of of strong feminists are identified as moderate feminists when we were able to find out that the answer to that question and so. To the feminists, credit? Almost. All of these studies found the findings that have just talking to you about so the feminists were honest enough to be able to say well I. Didn't think this was true. Therefore I was challenging the credibility of this early research in the seventies, and I found out that to my surprise. This this. What I'm just saying now is true, and so we need to really so now that requires entirely different solutions was we know that this is a to sex problem? And the solutions are being able to hear each other. That's the way you reduced domestic ballots, but the solutions that currently exists is we have domestic violence shelters for women, and not for men, and so that's really unfair to women, because if there's an argument between a man and a woman, it should not be the woman that has to leave the home to go into a shelter is. Is should be either the man or the woman that may need to leave their home for the day and have a place to be without the man having to be out and be homeless, and the women have shelter. Second level of problem is domestic violence shelters are teaching women that once a man is violent. He will always be violent. Do not go back to that man as As opposed to teaching a a woman when she goes into the domestic violence shelters, we're going to bring your husband. We're going to bring your boyfriend in, and we're going to train you to go through couples communication training where you both learn how to listen to each other, so that the level of of the level of out of control will allow. We'll be substituted for by being able. Able to be heard, and therefore when you have disagreements, you'll learn how to turn those into love rather than turn them into a domestic violence, and so that's the path we need to take. However, we are far from taking that path, and unfortunately that panthers most been taken by of in the United States by the Violence Against Women Act and vice president. Biden was the person. Most behind that act and. The and the setting up a shelters and everything that I'm talking about all that fallacious reasoning has only. Has. Is only perpetuating a problem which with one tenth of the money being spent on could really have minimized of. That is very significant and beat needs to be paid attention to, and this is reinforced by hashtags like Hashtag believe women. As really enormous distinction here Um and you know. Vice President Biden was very strong supporter of Hashtag believe women, and now he's experienced himself, being accused of being a sexual molester and quasi rapist on the verge of rapist. By what he what he's accused of doing, and he says one hundred percent untrue, which contradicts completely what he said before which is Hashtag believed women and women like men are no better and no worse. We have shadow size. We all we all lie We all exaggerate. We all remember things differently. Any person who knows memory who studies memory knows that everyone tends to remember things from the past in ways that they see. See through a filter that teaches the tells them that they're right, and the other person was wrong, and so we need a that's the value of due process into disregard. Due Process, we are colleges in the United States and say that if a woman says something, she is to be believed, and the man is not even allowed to have his lawyer cross-examine the the the the the the lawyer of the woman who's. Saying, she was violated in some way. This is. This is the type of. Lack of due process that will come back to haunt on people like Vice President Biden whether no matter what level of interest as it and so, this is good, her and if you respect women. If we respect women, which is extremely important. If we respect women, we must challenge women to to have the same due process applied to them as to as to men if we protect women. Unduly in relation to the way we protect men. What we are really doing is saying women. We feel your children women. We don't expect you. Again fascinating insights tax me back to heights point about teaching our children that lodges a dividing line between good and evil. This tendency to set men against women that I. Think is so at the moment. Will only. Culture, we got into the very very difficult. died Be Resilient, strong at based. On fascinated by the compensation. I really must that you've got four, we do. I think one of the important points. Some that Andrea about Africa arises out of this. we come at it from different perspectives and it's important to I. Think recognize. That, something's are above party politics. A journalist I quite like and respect said the other day when not nights remarks about the so? Behind environment for the rise of, children? Alwaleed expecting, decide that because he comes from a political perspective, some things above politics you, I would have different perspectives on a lot of political issues And yet you would say I think with me. That human flushing depends entirely over willingly on the sort of environment which we. The next generation absolutely absolutely. Why minute span incredibly good of you to give his side generously reveal Tana, guide I can talk forever. That's my critics would be quick to point. But I think he'd get some fantastic thoughts. I'll look for very much diamond. We can heist you to visit to this country. I Guess Heist along Damn era. And in the meantime Olivieri Best, we not circle back win at the end of you've got some more material weakened. Simply permit for the value. Anybody WHO's prepared to? Engage very forward to visit you in in very doing work with Australians who care about communication and care about men and women, really understanding and having compassion for each other you only thing I, disagree with you about is that I don't think you're a Talker I. Think you're wonderful Talker, but you aren't talker your wonderful listener and a wonderful wonderful facilitator of of what I hope. Was a value to share. Well he was fantastic and I. Think you've gone. You've been listening to John Anderson Direct for further content visit John. Anderson Dot net dot you.

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John Anderson Direct: With Victor Davis Hanson, Historian and Writer

John Anderson: Conversations

59:20 min | 10 months ago

John Anderson Direct: With Victor Davis Hanson, Historian and Writer

"You're listening to John Anderson Direct with Victor Davis. Hanson. Please note the John Anderson Direct is recorded live via online streaming, which means that sometimes the audio quality is less than optimum. Professor Hanson is the. Martin and Ille- Anderson Senior Fila. In classics military. History. At the Hoover Institution, at Stanford, in California. He's one of America's must publish respected public intellectuals. He's written dozens of books on warfare and classical history and his latest books are history of World War Two and all sign account. Donald Trump's coming to path. Victor thank you very much for joining us from Rural California. Cal. To north, West New South, Wales. Can I ask to open the batting satis fake in world history terms a we now at some sort of Maija tipping point gang are traditional period when old order is being replaced by new on in your view. While the old order I think has been replaced. It's analogous to the post war decolonization of the British are the the emergence of new engaged America. This is I. Think a little bit more dangerous because. We were embracing jobs ation and I think people very naively thought that everybody was onboard. With the Western paradigm of consumer capitalism. Transparency Individual Rights Constitutional government. Respect for minority opinion tolerance and diversity of religions, and that's in that did not true and one of the catalysts. List as Colin. Contagion because learn very quickly that China was neither transparent are censored. Many of the world international organizations have been warped by Chinese influence and then we learned that. Getting from San Francisco to Shanghai and sixteen hours, which we had praised for twenty years was maybe not such a good thing. As the virus was leaving Wuhan wrecked likes San Francisco and Los Angeles time in the Chinese government was forbidding flights should London domestic destination so The virus reminded us. It's very hard to globalize along this. The assumptions and presumptions of we thought would happen under levels as some of us were very skeptical, but we were ground out. I think now I think we don't know what's ahead of us. And the. circling pattern of period of uncertainty. But I don't think there's many advocates of unchecked levels ation in the United States these. I'm sure that's true. Everywhere some of the Wecker, the Henry Jackson Society in Britain has done on the dependence. All the five is nations, which, of course, Britain America New Zealand Canada Australia and they dependency upon China's Manufacturers and materials, and what have you at full they supply chains is really deeply concerning. It's going to be very, very difficult to unwind that dependency. Shooting ourselves in the foot it's aims to May. Even in the case of Australia where. Australian farmers your on Australia experts a high percentage of its food production than any other country in the world because we have such a small population. We would appear to be as self sufficient as nice in the world and tons of food production, and yet we're not dependent on certain key chemicals in cycles now from China. Same Jill even to a greater degree. There's the same apprehension we keep talking about returning industries to the United States especially protective equipment medical supplies, pharmaceuticals, strategic materials. Military. Applied Technologies but what we're learning is that our education system. HAS BEEN IN DECLINE AND And the so-called stem graduates or the people necessary to ensure us not the not the original research. But the level of operational research we don't have enough graduates and we're not competitive yet less we. Re engineer our universities, and it's going to be an a lot of our corporate magnates feel that they want move back but they're gonNA lose capital. They're going to lose bank accounts and it's making it very hard to do so. One of the problems we're having in the Western world is with the rise of progressive government. In. Its emphasis on race class gender issues. The Chinese are much more brilliant in terms of propaganda than we are. so by any measure of classical liberality Chinese, very reactionary, they have a million. As you know evil concentration camps I could use that to reeducation count. They've silenced Democracy Extinguished in Hong Kong they've destroyed indigenous culture are back. In terms of mercantilism there, an international trade outlaw they bullied their neighbors and I think we're GONNA learn that either out of laxity you're worse or responsible for a half million deaths. Cova and yet yet. When this crisis arose, when we had a travel ban, they were very effective in suggesting that we were races. This is a very diverse society saying that we are racist and every time that we try to make a concerted effort. To push back us that left wing you're racist you're insensitive. That's the yellow peril again, and they've really infiltrated the United States Entertainment Industry Hollywood and even the NBA the NBA is very vocal in their criticism of. Supposed-. Social Activism and things in the United States and yet. When China crush Hong Kong in a pretty much silence oliver players in fears, they would endanger that six billion dollar enrolling NBA market. China. So they're a very insidious rival. I don't think yet. We have any imagination of their potential in their capability in terms of Baba Ganda Message. That's very chilling perspective to come to the question of education to comments festival in relation to the stem subjects as an Australian movie in America we still see this remarkable capacity renovation Still Dominate the markets, a applications and what have you. The impression you had is that in the stem subjects American, very strong. You're saying that there's been a shortage of graduates in that area. That you haven't got the people you need to kick the technology. Age? I think what I was trying to say is that when we look at the quality of engineers that are being trained at Caltech, Samper Mit, they're the best in the world but. The next tier of people translate abstraction into operational efficacy we have about seventy percent are foreign students are necessary because we just. We've had a radical readjustment, fifty years in higher education and were not allowed were most talented people unfortunately have been going into wall. Street finance and law. And to a lesser degree in the humanities and we haven't we haven't for the ambitious programs we have for the sophisticated innovation that we develop were not utilizing in a way that self interested because we're so dependent. So when we say we want to become autonomous in China. A lot of are more informed scholars than other right something like that. In an op-ed, I get a call from a very distinguished person off the records as Victor. Or we only have twenty percent thirty percent of the HDZ electrical engineering or you know nanotechnology that we need and we're very defended on foreign students and we've got to be very careful that we. This divorce is done in such a way that we're not punished in the short term. So it's something that I think we're all aware of and. Kind of frightening how China does not is not competitive with a Western world and absol- in. Pure research is more than competitive in translating that your research into viable off and innovative designs consumer product. And part of it is it's not just that they're renegades and they don't follow patent and Copyright Wall but. They. Have the fusion of government. Private. sector. We can call it a private sector and then the whole. Machinery, of government. They understand American politics. I think much better than Americans do some arms. That's that's very frightening. So and the other side. The second question on on Education Simpson is the nonstop stem areas the humanities. If you lie, it seems to me the wrought across the West for fifty sixty years at least now. There's been this relates bliss attack on the institutions all our own freedom. This undermining and reinterpretation of history that has left people actually in a state of self loathing of Western culture and part of that has been an incredible. Naively I would put it to you about what communist communism is actually visited on the world whenever it's been trial. Let's a very good point in the ancient world people. Of Plato Aristotle and. In the Roman world, some of the neal like zone or joining us and even in there, and then our critics in the German World Nutrient, and Hegel what's not base spotted these two characteristics of Western. Central government market capitalism that create so much wealth and so efficient in providing material bounty where citizens and yet it also. Protects individual expression that if we're not careful and we don't have the break. So to speak or the bridles of family religion tradition community, then we can be you know we can. We can decadent and begin to excess and part of the problem in the crisis of the postwar world is in the English speaking world in particular. But also in your, we were very affluent very leisure time we pushed the boundaries of of freedom without any. Historical reminders that we were destroying the community. The religion. Traditions that said, yes, that's free and in your your legally free to do that. But I wouldn't say I wouldn't do that because it's injuries to the body politic and so. That was something that it's plagued Western civilization for a long time since the beginning that iron and then we in the West with the decolonization movement and the United States is radical change in immigration we brought in people. While you're in the former. British Commonwealth. And in your country in our country that we felt. we were going because we're the only civilization. Western paradigm is the only civilization that says were about ideas were not about blood and soil anybody can come to Australia. If they embrace Australian ISM in Western tradition in there is there is Australian even from China or from Africa as an Australian we have the same concept. Unfortunately, that is a very fragile concept depends on the host having confidence in its own values and saying you came you're you voted with your feet, it's our duty to instruct you to assimilate to integrate you. Embrace, our culture doesn't mean that we say in the West. Oh. We want your food. We don't want your music. We don't want your fashion. We don't want your family say that can all? Enrich our core values but were not going to change constitutional government free speech in the whole the whole paradigm on unfortunate people coming. So rapidly in such numbers to enjoy the bounty of the Western paradigm, and then we add the cynical lead where we just talked about we didn't prepare people. Joel. Culture right in there and then we it was worse than we said that equality not freedom as our only value in its equality of results of you're not eat will when you get to Australia, let's save from the Philippines or China or South America or you're not equal when you come from Oaxaca Mexico to California then worked Because, we did something wrong because you're you have less money. In the old paradigm was, it would take a very ambitious project. It might take two or three generations We weren't going to condemn the host because they didn't provide instant parody but. It's Revolutionary Times. Now because we're not assimilated integrating are immigrants are elite is lately intellectually immorally suspect. I sympathize intoduce abuse I find them very, very concerning. CanNot post you the just perhaps China China's handling of covid nineteen and the extraordinary on a agree with you and you say that. Like, probably understand I democrats systems better than US Kunas only knows how and with I mean inch peddling influence, and we've been very conscious of that now in Australia, nonetheless. By the way I've handled covid nineteen and the belly cuss reaction. From them. On issues such as a proper inquiry into covid nineteen. Do. You think that my yet serve as a as a massive wakeup coal and if so is it in time? Can we turn this around? The. Question something that I read deeply about an and try to think and talk with people were work. And? I I would say it's ambiguous. I think you're absolutely right that. Trump is no longer in the United States voice in the Wilderness of a warning about China everybody is now grinder outdo each other in concern and worry about China. And we we've kind of broken through the Chinese. Tabu now can say. What you're doing with waivers is wrong and what you're doing to Hong Hong as long whereas before corporate and university interest in a very strange symbiosis silence. I know is a pop up Ed columnist when I wrote critically of China would get a call from the console in San Francisco with the problem. So and that's good. I. Really do but I think we're in a second very critical phase now because I think if I should be so bold. You imagine the Chinese response it was something like this. Oh my gosh. This virus has ruined our brand. It's united our enemies. It's woken up the Western world what we were planning to do a now we've got indigenous people within our system that are angry. We've got Japan South, Korea Australia Philippines our neighbors we've got the united, and that's good. But I think now they're becoming a little bit more. Machiavelli. One I'm reading about China it's more if I could put words into their mouth is yeah, we screwed up. And the virus went out. And maybe our narrative that came from wet Margaret wasn't quite right and it came actually from the Huang Lab and maybe or maybe not it was an engineer not for a weapon maybe but maybe vaccination, but we don't really care. So what? We screwed up. Now what are you going to do about? In fact, what are you GonNa do about because Lincoln Naughty can happen again. And if a virus can shut down the entire Western world with quarantine, it's never happened under any other way ruined the economy caused the biggest power the history of civilization do fall on sneeze and internal divisiveness the United States. That's something we should consider because achieved far more roles even though it was Neil Listrik or accidental than anything we've done in the past propaganda, and now we've got a deterrent. Proposition that anytime the United States or the West tends to galvanize against this we can have some dissident general on SPEC say there might be a virus loosen. A province of China. So I think it's pretty scary because I. Think now after their own initial of. Apologies, if I could set, it wasn't much of a policy, but they're defensiveness is now been transmogrify into a new assertiveness and they're starting to realize that are not going to be apologetic at all and they're going to be more on demand because they feel they found a weakness in the entire social cultural. And Political Matrix of the West that they had no idea. About in this virus is really explosive. how would you in that context what you size? Very chilling. Respond to those who would say well, China still needs the West dot produce semi conductors that cobs prosper without tried I. Suppose All. It still depends on US having the willpower in the West to pull ourselves together doesn't it and that's what's perhaps the biggest question of all. Can we raise? Did you belief in astles and that's why the black lives matters protests come into the deep self loathing about it seems to me to be almost impossible turn-around now. Very difficult because just as justice in the last forty, eight hours in the united. States. We've had a moderate writer for the New York Times resign and suggests that the climate there were so antisemitic censoring us that she couldn't even write any more. We've had a number of prominent black entertainers voice. Nick Cannon of. Entertainment host voice, some antisemitic racist things that. I. Mean that you can't even imagine. But then he basically said I'm African American. I can do what I want I'm not gonNA Apologize. Though. There's a new assertiveness there and I, think what people are saying in the United States we've we've now transcended from we want quality. And we want a portion representation. And if we don't have proportional representation, we all despair impact there has to be an implicit bias somewhere we would have the same number weeping people color would have the same number. Brain surgeons at Stanford as others, but we've gone beyond that now. And where I think he will make a mistake. They think that black lives matters of sophisticated Marxist organization they're not interested in class. They believed that ultra are Lebron James, just a much a victim of somebody in the inner city it's a racial. In a racial movement and its ambitions, Branson wack nationalism of the nineteen sixties, it's saying. That thirty percent of the United States is going to go by the one drop rule the old confederacy we're not white and therefore superior and weren't we. We don't share in this legacy of racism slavery oppression the people who are white it's absurd. Somebody could come from any country and we don't know what their pigmentation as we don't know what their DNA is. We don't care but I think we have to be very careful because this is not a liberal movement. This is not a Marxist Movement Ryan on. The traditions of even the Soviet Union this is a weird racial angry over and it's Down it's it has an element of races racism NFL it's getting more and more pronounced, and you can see the reaction of A. The, progressive white. Liberal class in the United States they feel that the crocodile is gonna eat them last but it's gonna eat them and they're trying to appease it They just fired the head of the San Francisco. Museum of Modern Art a very distinguished art historian for the crime of saying I'm not going use forbid white artist from being a display their work because I don't believe in reverse discrimination, they fired him. And when you take Teddy, Roosevelt statue down from the Museum of Natural History, the pressure is there and what it requires is all of us here in the United. States and indeed the Western world because something analogous. Is happening everywhere especially in the English speaking world is we have to say, no were not ashamed of our traditions you don't have to be. Perfect, you don't have to be perfect to be good. We don't measure somebody by their bad characteristics along we we measure them up. Great. Good they give. And millions of people, own slaves but millions of them were not like Mama's Jefferson. That were aware of LEXI's the immoral issues involved. We're not getting enough voices because right now they feel that there's a nexus between corporations with money depend on emerging markets and the universities, and they've they just in case of. So in the case of black lives, matter in this cultural revolution, they have been welded together. very ugly phase. Indeed, it seems to me that one of the problems you've got. I is indeed as use sites, it is actually in itself, a reemergence of racism. Racism that says Whites Marlene fear and culpable for. All over the place. And yet, they must be many many middle African, Americans who are themselves deeply disturbed by this I? Mean there are many many wonderful gracious, and frankly middle class African Americans Nafta whom America has not been such a terrible place as I. Understand it when Martin Luther King was active or on the around thirty percent of African Americans Middle Class Mukasey gums eighties now to sixty percent. Now under is that there are problems because all human beings are subject occasionally the bank racist denied out about that at flies every which way I was a member of parliament for many years I saw racism directed against whites, but also racism directed against minority groups by the minority groups. It's an ugly aspect of human nature that. We will seek to correct, but you don't correct with hatred. And you don't correct scholley with denying. In this case. Some actual facts that in many ways must be many African Americans. For whom America's main a land of hope despite what has happened to they might have happened to the full forbe's I think there has some of the most eloquent critics of the black lives movement and this new racism have been shelby steele soul, all of mine who runs. As well as Senator Scott. and. John Order we have in the middle class as well and I think what's happening though is. For a lot of the African American middle class, they don't know which way this is going to end up. They don't know whether black lives will ultimately be successful and. and. Push this agenda down America's throat, and then they'll be punished. and. So they're like in some ways, the white middle class there they have their finger in the proverbial error just as the mob during the reign of terror and seventy, nine three, and they don't know whether Robespierres waiting to get all of them are he's going to get gigs in himself. So there's a waiting period, but they are privately I think most African. American. I live in an area. It's about ninety percent mexican-american. I can tell you that the vast majority of Mexican American people are appalled by this. And? So. The left says that there's a monolithic white and non white population and they say that because by the nineteen sixties and seventies, their agendas of our larger larger government, less less individual freedom more and more spending more and more therapeutic was not working and there was the Reagan Revolution. And so they they again saw that they needed new demography a new messaging to re constitute the demography of the United States while you're legal immigration and through new. Anti Martin. Luther. King Messaging Niane ration- intermarriage not assimilation, but separatism, and we as the White Liberal Atri Arc's will mentor you indoor medical and I think a lot of people don't like that and they're starting to rebel the problem is that in the Republican? Party. The official, a political. Organization this country that supposedly spouses and protects conservative traditional thought they were not sensitive to these issues. So traditionally, John McCain Mitt Romney supposedly our most progressive. They only got eight to ten percent of the African American bio if any major candidate were to get fifteen percent of the African American vote. That would mean that the entire progressive project blows up under our electoral system that means that. A Democrat could not get enough votes in Milwaukee Philadelphia. It's for. Detroit. And Columbus Ohio to balance conservative surge in the rural arts and would lose those states don't achieve the inexplicable when he wrote that Blue Wall because he got about ten percent of the blackwell and he got a huge I guess we would call Reagan Democrat Ross Perot populous nationals though but if There was a poll yesterday that said, he had fifteen percent of the blackwell. And that would suggest defunding the police in dismantling the police, the wages of that insane Wallasey almost heavily as we're seeing from these epidemic of shootings and places like Chicago New, York on the inner city, and once people realize that what they say to their leaders in their community organizers in what they do in the ballot box could be a different thing and if you were to get a few percentages as Paul suggested, that would be a watershed event but. A lot of what we're talking about at least as far as this country maybe indeed world the subtext is the two thousand, eight election. So how you interpret the? How what your views are on the warranty what your views are on the violence it's all predicated on what degree is that. Impair the reelection abilities in dumb I know that's a reduction statement but I can tell you that talking to people on both sides. That's where we are. Now the this next one hundred days are going to be something that we've never seen before. Yeah. I congratulate not up to come to that in a moment. Can I ask you a couple of questions I presume is not just intellectual late and the. Newspaper Editors in Saiful's who are the full-frontal. Backing this movement, many ways they must be serious money and night at some of that comes from seriously wealthy elites does. Your does that's one of the strangest thing. I think that's happened throughout the West worlds I know I followed Australian Europe and had seen some of the United States that much of the great money that was made in finance high technology north country Silicon Valley. is left wing and progressive. And when you look at our Forbes list of five hundred billionaires, no not millionaires billionaires almost all of them residents. So the great monied institutions in the United States Microsoft the Bill Gates Sports are the Warren Buffett Fortune or the Zuckerberg faithful or the Google fortune or they apple fourteen. are the Mike Bloomberg Media Fortune whatever fortunate we look at all of these people feel that they have done so well in the United States. that their theories of Utopian canal be imposed white on democratically unless will people and they feel that they're never going to be subject to the ramifications of their own ideology. So they want in California open borders, they have walls around their own home. If they WANNA stop your patient transfers, not stopping drinking water grand spurs to the bay area. If they want very high power rates, they can afford it. They live in a pretty temperate climate on the bay area in the bay area, but not others out in the desert around. So that's been a very dangerous thing in the West that in the old days, the so-called robber barons of the great nineteenth century magnets built my country in your country. There was always a sense that system allowed them to do that that they were very racist and they had some gratitude that freedom in a constitutional system protection of property. Tax Code allowed them to be prosperous thereby to lift everybody up with them and then. Private. Philanthropy was something that religion in community and tradition. Urge them to give back I think what's happened now that I did is legally gone in this new progressive billion class feels that whether it's climate change or whether it's racial relations are whether it's High Density Mass Transit, congested living that they have the answers and. They're going to impose on others. We got a glimpse of unfortunately. Rock Obama because of a series of. Statements that were quite astounding. He laid out a philosophy Leo was he said, you know it's time to shared wealth. You pointed person now's not nine to proper at some point. You got know when you've made enough money don't need anymore and you didn't build that most. Notoriously you didn't build that business, the government did and that ideology. Really. Sent investors into the shadows and. Part I think psychologically explained are sort of static inert economy in Joel two, thousand seventeen but it also reflected this new idea of these of these different billionaires are very different growth than what I remember the wealthy. As a young person might see them very closely at Stanford University of I write a column that's critical of them. I will get a call from one of them, and if I ever meet one of them and I do on occasion, what do you do with a guy with at awesome flip walks in a t-shirt as word five, billion dollars now it's an insidious. A, it's a very bizarre social makers. I'm very worried about this is. Said Europe in a students and writer of classics. And History let's turn them to preps. What we learn from history the early democracies filed by themselves out from within Grace Rhyme What can we learn? From from the history, you know democracy is not something that has a guaranteed survival. We thought it might have back when the Berlin will wolf fell. In the end of history and all the rest of it by history real history shows it's not secure needs to be nurtured. We in risk at risk in fact, all those who've given up on democracy owns just that we need to wake up. Cool. While requires a great deal of investment to be an Athenian citizen are citizen of Asian thieves or members of the Roman republic a great deal of. Time and commitment, and traditionally, these democracies were associated with a viable middle crowds and there's a shamanism and Gregan woman literature about the ten acre former. Business version, and the idea is that they were lake since they used their hand they use their muscles were responsible for their own defeat and failure. There were Tom. What they warned about is when you have rate concentrations of Mayan a few hands, the aristocracy was not meritocratic but based on or you at a red circuses one million people with no means of support by the second century in Rome than you were not. You're not democratic. Wasn't a you have too many people to want subsidies from the government and they thought that the rich going to pay in the richest their biggest. Occupation it seems like from forensic speeches of angels, how to hide their wealth. And they were not in how indulgence as we see in a lot of a Roman imperial ledger. So what I'm worried about is that. Here. In our country have middle-class gives with one point seven trillion dollars in aggregate student debt. except. No moral hazard gray showing these laws as they jack up tuition above a rate of inflation. Until two, thousand, seventeen, we haven't had a rise in middle class wages in about twelve years and We have a static unemployment about six to seven percent for a number of years. And so. If you don't have a Bible middle class than you're not going to have the core constituency consensual government and that when turns into with. The lower classes wanting subsidies from the government and the wealthy using their power and influence to get exemptions and that's what's happening I'm speaking on a state. That was once a model for the United States California in the nineteen seventies on terms of freeways housing. reservoirs recreation hauer. Hauer plants it was by far the best. Entry and we've lost about ten million. Middle Class people have fled and they have been replaced by enormous amounts of wealth. In Silicon Valley and then enormous amounts of poverty. We have the highest already rate in the United States twenty one percent one third of all welfare recipients live in cal- When Homeless saw that California's a canary in the mine what now? The other thing that comes to mind you touched on it a moment ago. I was the French revolution which same tomato be the. Early example all just how ugly identity politics can ultimately be. Think of Fulbright Revelations I've a recent sentries, the French the American the Russian and the mouse revolution only one produced freedom. What can we learn? It seems to me that America's increasingly looking like I. Think you might have made this comment yourself certainly looks. Increasingly like Like. France before the revolution, which goes turned into a complete disaster unlike the American revolution this incredible emphasis on this the detachment of virtue from from the classic. Understandings of virtue if you like and writing a wrong I and what have you and it's realignment with people and causes. You get into a situation way. The world really is a battle between good paypal naval papal visit just got rid of the evil label. Everything will be all right at always seemed to me to be a very dangerous mistake that conservatives dont Mike One group who understand human nature never changes. We're all mixture of the gooden able and the pool scum. Tendencies to want to do the wrong thing. But is America. Able to learn something from understanding its own origins and his own revolution versus the French model ally determined. Are we reaching a point where we're going to replicate the terrible mistakes that through France into a mess? That's the subtext of all of the discussions that we have every day in this country whether they're on television our debates on talk radio or the OP ed columns or in local and regional state elections that it's basically a to paradigm, the French Revolution, a mouse, the Bolsheviks versus the American revolution and the code words throughout history are always the same when you start to hear. Equality rather than freedom liberty. and. Here, internationalism the Bolsheviks were always talking about international, Bolshevik present those mouth what Asian model. PAN-ARAB ISM baptisms another one and the French said they were going to sweep all of Europe into a French Revolutionary Immune. And whereas the United States was always that we have a particular problem in the United States, and we're going to solve that and within our borders were going to not. We're GONNA not presume that we can go out and slavery gains that was sort of the idea of America and we're going to if we give people Li a freedom and liberty than we have confidence in human nature, we have non-governmental. Agencies operations traditions that will inculcate virtue and the person who makes money rather than take it from him or are define how much you can make deleterious. Consequences on the economy when you do that is that we can encourage them and persuaded him to give back and that was a pretty good model American universities were all product of our and we have the largest private lawns. Lampy in the world you're doesn't have anything comparable to Harvard Yale Princeton stamfor-. Caltech. Do of his private endowed universities but. When you get into this revolutionary year one mo where you're going to be holistic and systematic role than were mouth suits I'm not. I'm not generating. That's what we are in the United States. These people WANNA tear down and replace all of our statuary. They want to replace very date. The United States was founded in seventeen, seventy, six, the sixteen, nineteen in that way it's almost uncanny how. Close it is to the years zero movement in the French revolution than they had a cult of the supreme being lack lives matter is almost eighty now and I I'm again I'm not exaggerating the chief CEO of Chick-fil-a, who said that it was time for everybody to take a knee and wash the feet of African Americans and then he got down on his knees and shine these sneakers from African American raptor on we have. In the colonnade of the US capital Nancy. Pelosi. kick off. Supposedly symbolizing, you know the aristocracy. Africa recolonial Bass than taking a knee and it's almost a religious experience in it is it is It's very scary in. This'll be a test of the American traditions and resiliency and the constitutional or thought of our founders. We've we've had a civil war before. and. Anytime when these ideological differences polarize our crystal is around geography it gets very dangerous. We saw that eighteen sixty one but what were happening now in the United States and I think it's maybe somewhat similar to you in. Australia. But we have two cultures that were beneficiaries of levels. From Boston, to Washington, from Seattle to San Diego and maybe a little loose far around the Great Lakes. Orlando but that culture is central to the other culture. I can tell you at Stanford all my colleagues have never been to Bakersfield, Fresno but they've been to Shanghai in Tokyo and when I go to the East Coast, they've all been in London earth but they've never been to Youngstown Ohio. CARE, we have two different cultures and they're they're very angry at each other. And the one was a loser of globalization in one was a winner. And a lot of what we're talking about I think was. Nobody. Thought Donald Trump was waiting to win. It was supposed to be a sixteen year `regnum of Obama in Hillary, and then when he won, they thought, he really didn't think you would win a really wouldn't go through these policies of. Energy Development. Rationing option awards in the Middle East getting tough with China bringing industry back a populist nationalist middle class, and it wasn't just that they were hosted that they were Democratic Party was very scared. This was the first time. A Republican elite had actually talked about jobs and had a following among lower middle class people that might even is it seemed to transcend race. If we have this conversation in January of this year, we would probably be talking about a win and how he was able to create a class coalition that transcended race and I think. There's no surprise that the reaction to this contagion in the lockdown have been. have been aid that stopping that effort are cancel. Let's explore exploded in a moment. But before we do, can I ask you a question as I look back at an pretend for a moment to read much of the federalist papers, for example, nonetheless when you look at the incredible intellectual depths of the and the extent of the thinking and the writing that took place. Amongst America's founding fathers that would profoundly influenced by what might be called. Christian worldview all individuals the sultanate's an idea the dividing line between good naval. He's not in fact between man and woman all black and white captor and captive it lost somewhere across every human hops. The Great. Experiment was to. Maximize freedom. But underpinned by deep awareness, a bad excess excess influence excess money would go to people's heads because we're fallible pride would undermine everything. That's all washed out of the system. Now has an, as you said, it's almost the David hot at good Hadid from Brexit with the someways and the way as vice who still have some attachment to traditional values will view their on community at to they. They faith versus does who have become international citizens on and frankly become quite contemptuous. Of people who hauled traditional values and that same tomato be the most massive shift in America and yet you still have the impression you've alluded to. That in middle America in a geographical sense they they might still be some residual strengths and understanding some. For one of a better would some good old fashioned Holson realism. I think that's a good point. Totality the federalist papers when you look at what? Especially Hamilton was writing about was in. Jefferson in his own way. There was a great distrust of Cities Jefferson said when we all are piled up in cities, we're GONNA lose this country, and when we look at writings like John Dick. River core letters from America armored even later. By what Tocqueville saw Tocqueville saw democracy in America's. On. The agrarian and the person who was not a subject you popular fad camp independent guy on his farm and that was ball that was sort of the essence of the American. Experiment You know that transcended into the dust, you'll revolution when we had. Auto workers and small tract homes and independent families in the suburbs all throughout the Midwest. And they saw that in the institutionally, this country has some very weird quirks I don't think you happen or Europe Housing Electoral College was designed. So we wouldn't have a national referendum where people just visit. The Bay area are L. A. or in the past cities in the we had we have two senators in every state, Wyoming only ask four, hundred, thousand, four, hundred, fifty, thousand people one senator is worth two, hundred, fifty do twenty here in California Michael. I have twenty, million percent. And that was by intent to balance the popular demagoguery or the. Danger of that, we could go on and on but within our Constitution there is a characteristic balance and check balance check between the three branches of government and within the states federal system that is not radically democratic they they opted for the Roman Republican, not the Athenian Democratic model which they were terrified. So. What's scary now is when you? distill the Black Lives Amtra progressive agenda, and you look at what the elites are saying. The universities they have an agenda. And it's anti founder. In other words they want to seriously within four years repeal the electoral, College They WanNa make senators popularly elected they want to expand the number in the house Zoom they want increases Supreme Court of nine while or sixteen, and the locus classes of all of that is we've gotta give more people. A direct power without constitutional checks and balances and they want people. I guess I'll just finish your by saying they don't see anything unique about a citizen citizen to them as a resin versus comes across the border illegally. He's a resident pages payroll taxes. He's just as American, and he should vote you should have all the concentration protections of the citizen and that's what they're encouraging is. It's I've used that word too much for this insidious. Every aspect this revolution is three, hundred, sixty degrees. Twenty four seven, it's less I never sleeps. Victor than to come to the next few months. As you said, the next hundred days will be a breathtaking. Significance at full for America in full the world quite frankly I think you're right that It was almost to the surprise was not that. Trump one was a took. So long for something like that to happen supplies another way putting that trump's not the problem trump was the re the product of the problem and That I think you also. Him, years, preps, chemotherapy You know the patient was in such bad why we had to take on something very tough unusual that we knew might be unpleasant. How do you? How do you? So now as as as you sit there I see it's pretty much the same way I've used tragic hero problem solving latent tragedy analogy are with great western John Wayne. In the searchers or Shane I know that he's a person without military experience he's on who can be very rude. And his e came in with a certain set of skills are. No investment in the bipartisan establishment and therefore, no worry about what they thought of him and he wanted to get an agenda and yet he's now learning that even before these these three crisis. That the more he was succeeded in the more people hated him. And the people I've talked to around him and talk to him too and it seems that. He I think he has to be aware that. When this is all over people are not gonNA like him. And they're never going to like it and he's never going. He's going to be a gunfire that people say you used a gun to clean up the town. Now you've lied nets the dilemma of where he is but. He can do something. You can do a lot of good still and he's done a lot of good and we have not had that type of person at this late date. I don't know what we were dumb and what means in foreign policy is that He would talk a lot and if you still what he's saying is that he does he's very skeptical of Europe. Is. Almost. suicidally pro-australian. Row ready she wants to be broken avian and he really believes that the Anglo speaking role in traditions of England specially that we all share our unique and yet. Say that in this climate is suicidal because it is Demagogue was being racist, but it's not. He's trying to say that all of us have every race, you have a lot to learn from the British system. And so I and he's very pro Japanese I guess what he's sort of like reminds me of. A phrase itself barb soul was not a good guy enrollment Republican history, but he said no better friend no worse than. If he thinks you're a friend of the United States I think there's no better president come to your a if he feels that. I think I'll be candid. I think he feels arrive historical and contemporary reasons. Germany. is now not an ally the United States, it is a day a day Ura. Ally but it's not. So I feel that relationship on both sides is seriously jeopardy and I mean permanent. Unless something's. that's tragic but he feels it. and. Yet I. Feel that is relationships with our traditional allies written especially but Australia's especially and you want to be. That way with Canada and Japan South Korea. Have never been tiling have never in Israel have never been better. And I think when you go to these countries, a lot of times people recognize at least private. But. You know when the left and the left has a minority of the of the democracy still, but it controls the foundations can be the university. The Popular Culture Hollywood. So it magnifies importance got a much bigger mega. That's certainly Australia around a third of Australians. Now, self identifies lift wing and that's up considerably on what it used to be, but it makes it took third do not yet virtually all the public commentary that people with megaphones come from that particular perspective and have a great deal of Si- the future of them just a on this issue of. American. Attitudes towards trump trump. I recently met an American from the East Coast. and. She started to froth at the mouth. At of May, mention of trump's nine and listed an unbelievable set of. Real and imagined. Ills. She said to me then how do you feel about his no stranded not said, well, one thing I will say is that he had the courage to call out the Chinese women's crisis China the new and Obama did nothing about the militarization of the islands that are noreen China's a territory. And at that point, he immediately backed off and it was quite interesting said, yes. I. Will Give you that. Although it was a very interesting remark. or inside left is in a dilemma because some of them had been. Solitary Voices Lane about Human Rights Hongkong Tibet waiters. And Obama was not interested in that at all his Asian was not anti China's approach. And Trump Komo came along and he empowered those people. So it's very funny to see people who are now coming out of the woodwork in the laugh. and. They all have to throw clear before they make their statements and they said, well, you know I eight on from but he's no good just what you're talking about but he allowed us to speak about. Chinese. Human rights violations so that that that's something. As important. But what what you're also describing is in the United States, a lot of us I know that I've had a lot of friends and family that don't speak to him anymore because I wrote a book. On how trump won and they created a climate? That it's not socially done if I were to put on mega hat, make America great and put American sticker on my car and drive to town I've didn't follow. That'd be sad. Some of the people who shout at me might, in fact when they get into the ballot box. and. I. Think. That's the big unknown. How many of them in the fall? I talked to a person yesterday mexican-american fellow. Law Enforcement. And I said. So who you voted for trump I civil, you have you ever been contacted said, yes I said who do you say your? Said by I said, why said because if I tax big text me a question I'm going to be on some lists and now they're gonNa go after me and that's not that's not anymore in this climate. So it's Telltale signs we had a congressional. LS special election for somebody who was removed Congress in a plus while democratic see. About two months ago, and we had a conservative Mexican American candidates down the bowl supposedly eight points you won by ten. So. It actually happened last year with a reelection of Scott Morrison. As Prime Minister, he was given no chance at the polls Olga wrong. Even, the US study center now on the. Same Day. At Colbert riots at in relation to trump, and you've got this quite distinct reality now that a lot of people simply went to what they really think that in itself is profoundly troubling. We now feel obliged not any to hide what we really think, but to denied in public and so my final question you've been very generous with your time. A decent middle American worried about a country just wanting a return to some degree of civility. What advice would you have for them because the simul apply in my country. When I think this is kind of. CONTRARIAN or counterfactual or I don't think that appeasement in. A basement work anymore in other words. I think people like yourself who said that the American where he's been pretty good on China We need to be a little bit more assertive and we we need to have people in Middle America that say you know what? I'm not GonNa, the flame that please sorry I'm just not going to do and you know what? I'm not going to allow you to jared author And they stand up they don't need to do it acrimoniously rudely, but they have to be much more forceful because you mentioned these revolutions they all had one thing in common they started out with a minority of population. The Jacqueline's were minority bolsheviks worm or the mouse were minority and everybody said they're going to devour their own and they give and they're and they're going to lose their message and they did and they're going to be suicidal and they were but they want least for a time because nobody spoke out against the either fear or because they thought they had no chance. We're GONNA. Wait see what happens in member of finish in there's three or four things that we don't know what's been out here that the virus is GonNa. Wayne if it wanes by November, trump will be elected lockdown. Stops, and the economy starts to show real signs of recovery a win if Joe Biden on the trail and seems to be cognitively. Impaired in some degree will win and if If trump has a greater degree of discipline in his expressions your win if that does not happen in the loop. So it so We're all waiting to see which of those four or five factors will play out howling play out there on everybody's mind they govern every every policy decision, every editorial interpretation of them. We just unfortunately everything is weaponized in this country. I've never seen anything like it like sixties and it was not even that was not like us. Scary but civilization I really believe is in is on the brink because of these forces come to full power. They'RE GONNA be taking names and they're going to not going to want. A union, of bought we're not GonNa want the not going to be gracious about victory they're not going to want unity and eating. Hundred out in radic opponents of ultra revolutions always do they'll do it again. Well on that very cyber night but very, very important night. Can I thank you very much indeed view time I've enjoyed it immensely I appreciate your very deep learning and understanding it's been terrific. Thank you for having me Reseda Jordan. You've been listening to John Anderson. Direct. For further content visit John Anderson Dot net dot Edu.

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John Anderson - Political Leader - BONUS

Faith Collides

23:41 min | 1 year ago

John Anderson - Political Leader - BONUS

"Hi Guys this is Grace Wong. And you're listening to some additional content. We have with John Anderson Former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia. If you haven't yet heard historian on regular episodes you might WanNa check it out before you listen to this. And as we said before the political views expressed by valued guests are their own and their appearance on. The show does not necessarily imply any endorsement of theirs or any entity they represent so now with covid nineteen happening right before us. What do you think is going to happen with our country or with the world? I think it's incredibly hard because we got a not speak. Now it's going to go on for and how bad the health crisis will be and how bad the economic him that will result. But it's likely to be extremely serious and they will be dreadful. Hang up the ticket a debts and a very high levels of unemployment. They will be a furious by between say rockets king big government interfering free end of the president's die love young lost confidence in capitalism. Ooh This interview with John was on March. Twenty Third Two thousand twenty which was the same week. Australia's current prime minister. Scott Morrison urged Australians to stay home unless it was absolutely necessary to go out so while John had planned to record from a studio in Sydney he ended up sheltering at home to speak to me and what was supposed to be an interview about his faith in career story turned out to be much more because perhaps as former politician. John had foresight on the broader picture of this pandemic even when nations were just starting to respond to cope in nineteen in this bonus content. We get into John's views a bit more. He shares the personal story on war and allows us to see through the lens of a political leader with what's going on today and the issue surrounding it now and the future John. I'm very curious to pick your brain on what you feel about war and how your personal experience may have impacted you to think the way you think about. It is terrible brutalism and the effects of a mitral can carry forward for many generations. I can shape societies and have a negative impact. I think for many many years. We've been born pencil quite all. Because they lost interrupted by the Second World War and a delight. My mother and father getting married for many used because that was very very badly wounded. So your father. He was about how old when he met your mom and had kids. We actually met my mother when they were in their last year at school so when he was about seven. Dana writes she'd eventually get married but then the wall. Kinda Dad said he wouldn't marry her the fear that he might get killed Neil deed and time I finally married though bus willing to the which was all interest is so what kind of injury did he have a shrapnel injuries for very bad ones he goes expected believe he's friends founded the end of the second day of Battle of Alamein which was the first major battle allies actually manage to stop the Germans and was one of the battles that Australians played a critical role in I was appointed which Churchill said will. This is the end of the beginning. Perhaps a big setback. But my father was Manning Orleans. Free antitank guns. The giants found the Ryan trapped inside exploiting will around them. My father was about twenty four. A young man panicked jumped up out of the trenches was excited. My father went up to pulling back down and was massively injured. His friends in the hospital ten at night. He was in a COMA DOCTOR CITY. Wednesday the night out by indeed and he eventually recovered. He paid a terrible price awards. Given it. A BARNES OF HUMAN CONFLICT SALSA CONVICTION. That given conflict is something we will never say. The annual Chinese proverb is right. If you say peace prepare for war so growing up on the farm it. Was You your dad because your mom passed away when you're three years old. What was your view about life or death growing up especially without a mom. I don't know how much a young person can comprehend it when young. You think it's never going to probably tell you footings familiar. My dog went over thirty five and I remember driving. Do Not thinking to myself. Well the three score and ten that seventy years and it struck me that life is actually incredibly sure and I think that happened cemented at about thirty five to forty. They suddenly realize that. If you think back thirty five years you can remember when you were a little kid. You think four hundred thirty five years and you're going to be seriously all life doesn't last long. I'm not sure Kim even losing my mother and deeply conscious was not being there and we do long. We remember this. We do actually long the now fouts in nights it's pot and possibly the weather would widely certainly Mr and wanted to know more author was who is fascinated labels spoke about a deep sense of you lot my own mortality rausing when you're a member of the national cabinet back in. Nineteen Ninety six to about two thousand five you shared about how for years you've worked on cutting debt and Australia how it wasn't easy at first as a form of government what happened after. And how can that relate to what's happening in our world today in Australia? What happened? Was that the fridge arrived. Imploded strutted Ross strongly and wages real white Strongly added particularly for a few years guy. Young people a tremendous set of all is by came out of schools and when investing and went into the job market and the Anton That shift to the best friend in solving. But now we're GONNA guy because the We had the Otieno crosses the trio Lehman Browse filing go. See that is a lanes for saying what happened. economic collapse. The public sector took a whole lot of bits on from the private sector which means text pies now had begun. We sold the debt cross with more on. Then we've had covered nineteen catching it us at a time when we were still deeply in debt not having done the hard reform to fix our economies probably and that applause to America as well as being very strongly at paypal Beta enjoying the jobs in the Beta prosperity until covid nineteen. But what has been really wiring? Millions and admire of America's ally in which the public sector debt is growing growing growing pains particularly of interest rates have gala. Tomorrow's taxpayers will be absolutely heat hob is not around in the dishonesty of some of the popular Inability coma solutions that are being bandied around that Pale superficially to young people but actually to Britain for example. When I was a young man Nedbank spending too much money at had tried the very things that are bank provided a gang now some people in Britain the very things all the same things. History doesn't necessarily repeat exactly but it rhymes and Britain ended up by simply broke Countries in the world had cap in hand of the International Monetary. A Bilal Amend very later came along and forced reforms tightened up spending the country. Dying again to the Things we need to learn the list history. So are you saying countries are in a lot of debt and it's becoming a big problem. Gross Western countries up crony. I actually see it as a real full line lining up in Western society now with assets which is mostly older people become wealthier and wealthier people who are trying to get assets whether it's safer time we'll signing young on powder and a very nasty unfortunate gap and. I actually do feel very sorry for young people. There's been a researcher out saying that they know become for for them that all but I have to say that is I. He asked some of the policy promises. Being my will. It's spelled out by the Kuhlman Standards in Marietta appealing to younger angle. Cancel you'll call me station. Settle without explaining. That means is that when I do have to pay back even more in taxes. There's no such thing as a free lunch. A The you know the asked or if you've been told beat school you'd recognize active. They just land you in more trouble so now with cove. Nineteen happening right before us. What do you think is GonNa happen with our country or with the world? It's incredibly hockey. Because we saw as as you're not speaking now how long it's GonNa go on for an how bad the health cross will be and how bad the economic night him that will result. But it's likely to be extremely serious and there will be a dreadful hang up particularly a debt very high levels of unemployment so be government sector probably Cobra de and possibly personal. There are people who are still ice spending much because traveling then donning at home and they will be fierce by between those bits. Big Government interfering free enterprise and it's Di Lago now lost confidence in capitalism. Anytime side of them is you cannot. I honestly cannot nine another system. That is really this big little Tony and giving them opportunities lots of Awol. What about the command economy out of Beijing? But in fact China I decided to move forward when allowed a fair degree of capitalism. Open their doors. Open the doors to the rest of the Marlboro Mike Think it's going to be taken wife went to says they'll support it all. Come history takes you very clearly the systems November. I can because a step charged. What do you think politicians are thinking right now at this moment regarding Cova nineteen think in some ways in many countries? I think in my country Australia in some ways to high better than some of the this Debbie site You possibly say that John but which people behaving in some cases very very responsibly. When I think governments leading role in the face of a very Brooklyn smug and it gets worse every night. Now imagine that they strongly worry very weird Later wants to be in command whenever guys to custody in one false move eight. Nev It's just specifically the removed that sort of brings the economy down coastal section of the economy. They jobs into rainfall prospect. Really whether the event respected appraise whenever you consensus. They are trying to do the right thing. At the end of it at the end of this we are going to have the mother of old about how we move on with is going to be some Theory ideas is nothing new about the toll level. They tried that voice file. But whether we're going to go through. The high discipline refused Sipping all right. We've got a one time accepted the only way will restore prosperity Will be ready for the next show. 'cause obey it should let listening. I seventy eight. Didn't have to let it out of this easy suspect. Most of this again have to lower our little in terms of living standards throw or his administration just projected that this would create two trillion dollars in debt for the nation given that we already have debt that this will create that much more debt. Where do you think this would go? Choirs ball occasionally may away because the father and grandfather. I don't know how we're going to resolve it. Because we've never seen indebtedness the sole normally saying interest bright setups levels for such a long time. These are uncharted waters. But in the end we have to remember that he steadies dead. You Kennel aid they. Your fellow countrymen you to full days on hyper kick Looking at what happened somehow meant any sized Stopped wine them back in. It's a long grind just as it is for that gets into you. Can Hobby declared bankrupt or the Dawes? There's no about it out. And how do you feel like a leader with the Christian? Faith should be leading the country right now. I do think our pride has to do so. The problems that we face so think later. Ideally should project great humility we have device about. We actually lead At children and grandchildren down in the West. I genuinely believed that some site we decided pride was a greater the to then humility and modesty and other persons It's now all about me the results I think disastrous waiting to rethink Drake Kathleen. We need leaders. Who Will Model that? Australia's lead Brahmanic amendment. Who I think essentially understands he must serve. He's all database in an age when unfortunately government has become for too many people as Substitute for God. There's a terrible prostate pie to get it right now. It's very to get a drive. But it's also to people in the community for the inner democracy particularly it's vitally significant to -nificant that politicians are humans to they want always get it right in with the best will and if you just assume that all always acting out all self interest it always soil serving always selfish will become a self fulfilling prophecy. We have to be prepared to reward and encourage men and women in public life who are earnest and sincere and well motivated. If we don't recognize that they went come forward and up and coming young politician. Who are writing Australia of me recently. I just watched allied done the prime minister ever during the summer because he had very bad some of the media three in this country on its site is guys don't show. I want to continue in public office and I sent her and understand how you feel but if you feel discouraged we really are in trouble trouble. No one wants to be in that position because he'll be judged by everyone this is a problem occurs so judgment we so automatically. Should we know based concerns become so philly prophecies so John? I see your strong position democracy. I mean you're the leader of a democratic nation. What's interesting is you seem to understand. Both how painful it can be to lead a nation that can be quite opinionated and difficult like you said now turbo charged by social media. But at the same time you do believe in the beauty of the system to advance society to be for the people and by the people but I think a lot of people struggle with where democracy is today because it seems to be what's defining our country at least in America in recent years. How do you think this issue can be addressed everywhere? Society now has become incredibly traumatized. And this is now one greatest threats to to Going forward with a so focused on the things that divide us and so reluctant to identify with that country. That is very very for us to agree on a way forward. Awful latest defined a ally four Agua very hot at with this rural city. Divide in Australia. real problem people lived The Big Cities Phillip Black second-class citizens is a parallel in the United States. Today goes very close flow so I understand what with a gentleman greats as Pasa grievances that went the full of government and to address when they're inequalities for example in health delivery services or in my ball find zones. Izzo Maths and sciences schools. Things I've met with very high. Try and give comfy paykel the tools. I needed to ensure that they didn't say them spills neglected second second-class citizens who went respected or appreciated. So is it fair to say you represent a marginal group in Australia? So when you came in you had to understand what everyone wanted and so you created something that would work for everyone versus someone who would only understand what the majority view and forget about everyone else. People look if you just want politicians to represent your particular interests. You might be asking them to do it at the expense of the population. Lives trump the right way to do it in the interests of all. They're all Australians. Often the things that they have been called siphoned. Your better not want to be strategically safe. You WanNa Storm Ghana me. Want Doboj indies reasonable. Atm's get those things right off the back of strong governments you can then. They even disadvantage scripts unforeseen. What have trouble food he can go? Insists that Bailey's we may regardless of the indications full the interest to the hull as donal of the hole in the first place that is the nature of what we now call identity lifts king. I have dreamed one day. My children will be judged to going to content of their character. Not the color of a skinny. And then you think of Kennedy Site. Ask what you can do to you but what you can do if you country. Buzzes is. Our peels forced to sink of the Commonwealth. The common good thinking yourselves as fully members Zoll in that case the American family. Now we does return that on its head. We say I have grievances. I pick a lot me had been under any traded they will dented fi with a grievance scoop with a victim of grip in my country. Must I demand that my country's means my fellow countrymen must make money? That is not the siping. I'd have legitimate news I do but to the greatest degree possible. We should ask ourselves how to include everybody. In the family rather than create new one member of the list in Australia called recently an aristocracy victim. There was no one disputes. That but what we actually want everybody to feel about todd of the family. We don't want to create some sort of new. I'll even my king role only needs grind at the wine wench. Now you have to elevate somebody status on the bicycle. Economy seem rather than as he nauseam as flee John Presents quite an interesting view for those of us who may feel like. We are part of a disadvantaged or marginalized group but keep in mind that John's no stranger to this as he represented the rural farming minority as the leader of the National Party in Australia and new wet beyond party lines to focus on the common good at the nation which was lower debt and boost the national economy as a whole oftentimes getting misunderstood or underappreciated from his family and friends while we might never be in a position to have to think on behalf of an entire country we might need to at our company or Foreign Organization. We care about at during these times when there can be division or differences in opinion where you work. How might you consider leading in a way that can bring care to all concerned and get? Everyone rallied around common goals or objectives. We hope you took something away for how you can be a better leader at your workplace or community especially at a time when our world faces an uncertain future and businesses need to get through complex challenges if you like to hear more thought. Provoking conversations on politics values the culture from John Anderson. You might want check out his podcast and videos from his website John Anderson Dot net dot. Edu in a new series called John Anderson Direct John. Stay safe and continues to talk to high profile leaders on today's issues direct from home. This is Grace Swan and thanks for listening. We'll be taking a break before we launch our new season in the fall. We hope you and your family stay healthy in every way until then and in case you missed the preview for the new season it's going to get personal and possibly more raw and relevant to what you might be going through in your careers. The reality is the coronavirus crisis is going to hit millennials hard and I'll be our second economic crisis in about a decade so we might need to brace ourselves for a lot more twists and turns out work than the previous generations and with our faith. We might need to be ready to limit out in ways. We never expected so as we take a break from our monthly episode releases. Be Sure to look out for what's in store for our new season on the millennial career path and please get connected with us on social media if you haven't already.

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Conversations: Featuring Konstantin Kisin, Comedian, Podcaster and Writer

John Anderson: Conversations

53:12 min | 1 year ago

Conversations: Featuring Konstantin Kisin, Comedian, Podcaster and Writer

"You're listening to conversations with John Anderson Featuring Constantine Kissing please note that this episode was recorded in Twenty nineteen before the Kovic nineteen crisis concentration camps. And it's great to have you on your very very interesting guy. You grew up in the Soviet Union. You eventually moved to Britain if forged here a career as a successful comedian. Yet as a comedian you've written some very incisive. Conservative commentary on the State of free speech and the direction in which the progressive lift is trying to take us like many great comedians. You seem to be able to fuse. Comedy with incredible incisiveness in terms of political commentary and social commentary. You've been asked to contribute your ideas on free speech to numerous papers and two television channels not to mention numerous podcasts. But can you begin by telling us how a survivor of Soviet communism comes to be a comedian in Britain? Well let me correct one thing you said. He was all great and the U. Bigamy up as much as you could but I'm not a conservative and my Colville. Yeah sorry and my commentary is not really conservative. This is one of the biggest problems with the position that we now find ourselves in. Which is that. Anyone who in any way challenges? The radical progressives leftist narrative in any way is automatically right wing is automatically conservative best. That's the nicest thing they'll say about you. I'm not conservative. I've I have conservative views on some things. I have very liberal views on many other things. I'm in the center politically I think of it But I it boggles my mind that we are now in a position on that freedom of speech which is a fundamental cornerstone of Western civilization has become a conservative value. That isn't absolutely insane position to me as someone who came from a society where freedom of speech did not exist and when I came here. My parents essentially sacrificed their life. Savings too to get me here right. They didn't move over. They sent me to boarding school here with the only money that they had. The reason they did that is so that I could be in a free society and to think that that happened. And now this fundamental principle of this country is a marginal issue that supposedly is right wing at best. It boggles the mind your underscore. Something's really I think fascinating which is the infected in the past. It's usually been the left the same the value of free speech because the current debate would have you believe that free speech is You know just a something that conservatives believing so they can build up on everybody else but in the past those who felt oppressed understood how important it was to them so they can have their grievances. Heard well even if you go back as far as slavery in America the slaves who were protesting about that condition would demanding freedom of speech in order to be able to argue for the liberation. It's a fundamental principle as I say So the idea that we now live in a society where it's the opposite. I think the reason for that is actually very simple. John which is the a lot of these narratives whether it's intersection nalty. Or these structures of oppression. All is stuff. They don't actually have any logical or reasonable underpinning and so the only way you can defend them the only way you can defend them is by shutting down people who don't agree with you because if you have a reasonable rational argument that views crumble like a house of cons because they know built on anything the built on fallacious logic and just assertions without any basis in fact. So that's why I think now the left the radical left not all of the left but the radical left have come to this place where they have to shutdown and label and Smith. Anyone who doesn't agree with them because their ideas and not based on anything so to the language. We know it The most innocuous remarks about somebody else can be kind of as bigotry as Hybrid. The duty of the mall racist because that's the ultimate slid. I think to be called racist to judge somebody else by the color of their skin is shocking today. Will it is. But it's used as a weapon against people who simply want to discuss differences and the basis language we had Lionel Shriver on my youtube show called trigonometry recently. One of the points that she met is the word racist has been you so much and so in appropriately. That is why we now use terms like white supremacist. Because being racist is no longer enough you have to take it up a notch. And that's why the word of white supremacy has come back and the point that she made which I thought was Berlin. Was The you know in her childhood? White SUPREMACIST WITH PEOPLE. That if he walked up to them. And you said you white supremacist. There'd be like hell yet right. That was what a white supremacist look like. Now it's these people who are on the coven. Pretend they're not. Apparently this is what we're being told so this rejection of that pass because that's what it is. I mean these great concepts of freedom freedom of conscience probably the first album ready done burn others at the state holding a minority view freedom of speech freedom of association. You have freedom of speech if you don't have the right to associate or not associate discrimination is painted as a terrible word but is often a normal part of living you discriminate when you decide not to invite made at dinner but to ask your next door neighbor but not complain. Monte. I'd like to companies. Well you might be complaining after this. Yeah but to what extent now you've come from society that you'll parents wanted you move out all that was Marxist in origin It was communist to what extent wasn't real. Communism apparently keeping told though by eighteen year olds on the Internet. Yeah right so that it wasn't real. Nothing wrong with the theory was just nosy because the theory was hopelessly wrong and the theory was wrong because it was in some senior that people would give their loyalty to the Party and the state ahead all of those around the ones that I love the husbands wives children their answer uncles. They community not wild like that. That's exactly it They ignoring fundamental human biology and human nature human nature. Exactly that's what I mean. So the way we evolved to be there completely ignoring any of that and that's why the theory doesn't wake. You might be a great theory but it doesn't work in practice because human beings as you say not wired in that so the point to take out of that because I think it's very important point is it's not just that it filed because wasn't even made it probably the theory is not a great theory is not a workable theory but to where I wanted to go with. This is where we've got to understand we've got to now so your family wanted you to come to the West where there was a different If you lack set of foundational principles evolved I a lot of time a lot of blood sweat tears we dismiss it now. We don't take it. It's parents doc But you got back to the twenty s and it was obvious to a lot of people who are committed to Marxist will view that there was at least one major problem the working class when not rising up. They didn't seem interested. They seem to lethargic Perhaps I'd been opioid too much by religion. Whatever two other? Thri the terrible capitalist societies that they were in so you had this push to say well. We'd better accelerate the process Mechanisms to smash democratic capitalism introduce Communism became known as Cultural Marxism because the model is to attack the cultural institutions of western to weaken them family church academia. Whatever community community. And then I have a time. That's moved into. Let's accumulate as many people with grievances as possible. Stipe BUYS GRIEVANCES AND WELD THEM INTO bodies at oppose everything wisdom. You think. That's what's happened. I think that's exactly what's happened. But it's exactly what's happened. The Long March institutions. Which is what you just described as a way of capturing power in a capital society. The one thing I would say on that which I always tried tried to make a point of there is a reason that communism and radical socialism is making a comeback now particularly among young people. And the reason. Is that young people. Douglas Mary who I know. You've spoken to recently talks about this as well. If you're young person today yeah living in London over south east of England or in many big cities in America. Imagine in Australia. It's similar. I have some friends that too. I do Charley Young People Young Comedians for example and the reality for young people. Today's that the ideal of buying a property in London is completely out of the realm of the possible. And if you live in a society where people have no access to the one form of capital that traditionally you would have a chance to accumulate. It's very difficult to expect people to be capitalist in that kind of understand that I think. That's a real concern and Tom and government. I believe in sound economic management. What people miss is the government and economics in the West is downstream of culture. And that's highly significant because I think capitalism is in a been badly traduced in many ways. Almost crony capitalists Ryan. We have today exactly you get back to Lehman Brothers. The breakdown of prudence of integrity said bankers stopped asking. What is the right thing to do and instead what can I get away with? How can I prosper? Most rapidly and it ended in tears because unsustainable on unconscionable and economically very stupid decisions we might but to come back to your point about Grievances my wife sent me this Experiment Very Literally. A couple of days ago where they didn't experiment with a group of women and they put scars on their faces and they told these women that they're going into a job interview and the purpose of the experiment is to find out whether people with facial disfigurements face discrimination They showed them this cause in the mirror. The women saw themselves with these 'cause announced they lead them out of the room. They said we're going to touch it up a little bit and as they touched it up. They removed scarring completely so the women went into the job interview thinking that they are scarred but actually being their normal selves and the result of the experiment is that those women than came back reporting massively increased level of discrimination. Indeed they many of them came back with comments. The interviewer had made that they felt were referencing. Their facial disfigurements. And this is why I think this ideology of victim too dangerous because if you preach to people constantly the we're all oppressed the were all being discriminated against different levels the because I'm an immigrant. I'm to magically disadvantaged the because I have dark skin I'm automatically disadvantage than that primes people to look for that. And it's like you know when you buy a new car and you see that car everywhere else as you drive around. It's not kind of effect which is why this ideology of teaching people. The victims is so incredibly damaging and so incredibly dangerous. We have to teach young people in particular that they're strong the capable that they're able to overcome adversity not the victims. It always seems to me that the the idea of elevating if you like people who might or might not have suffered real disadvantage or been sidelined to a sort of caste system and with into sexuality you can add onto it if you have other characteristics balls over the central idea of wisdom freedom which is all over the of dignity and of standing because a higher thirty says that but we'd walk let audio completely. We haven't found a substitute for valuing one another that's workable. I think what we have. Actually subsidy is very simple if we believe in not discriminating against people in not in the way that you define that earlier but in in the negative way we believe that people should be treated equally and given equal opportunity based on their skills and talents. That is a perfect solution. And what we now have is because we've elevated certain groups to above that mean above that medium point We now have a society where we promote certain people ahead of others we have what supposedly it's called positive discrimination. I don't think any discrimination can be positive in that way. So actually the solution is there But the reality is that As Douglas Murray says some people enjoy the over correction some people enjoy the correction and power that comes with it and the ability to shut down any one and go well speaking as an immigrant. You're not allowed to say that speaking as whatever you're not allowed to say that that's power in the society that tries to debate ideas that is tremendous power and people don't want to give that up. They don't want to give that up and I think that's a big part of a why this is happening. And the other thing is of course this whole ideology of victimhood. It's weaponized empathy. It's weaponized our empathy. I'm using your empathy against you. Because if I say well look as a blah blah blah. I've been oppressed for fifty years. You empathize with that right as a human being. You naturally empathize so anything. I then tack onto that. I've been discriminated against. Therefore we must now overturn. Capitalism is harder to argue against against simply the slogan we have a ton capitalism. So it's weaponized empathy and that's why it's become so powerful so corrosive because it's very difficult to argue against. Excuse me when people project this a former oppression the victimhood and there is discrimination society. People some people are racist some people bigoted and DIRAC groups which have been marginalized directly and we are now at a point where largely we've addressed. Many of those issues The industries that they've created around those Korea feminism career. Whatever else it is. Those people are never going to give up if you've got a successful Career as a TV feminist. You're not gonNA give it up. You're not going to go. Look THE GENDER. Pay Gap is pretty much closed. Uninfected women under forty out. Earning men you're not going to. You don't want to hear that you're not GonNa want to spread your status and your power derived from being a victim. Yeah you have to remind you busloads victimhood result. Absolutely why would you want to give up your power? Yeah number wants to touch on something that I think's very important that no one would say Assad's perfect or of a has been what has had those unique capacity because of the I think the Judeo Christian commitment that laws at the heart of Western civilization I really do believe this others push back against it but I think it's pretty clear that we have a commitment to others that we are obliged to la La la and due to the most we'd have them do unto us Even when they deliver enemy. You've got that capacity to right wrongs and the objective ought to Beta see people who are waco oppressed downtrodden no marginalized give them the opportunity to enjoy full citizenship. If I can put that way. Join the family It sounds kind of catastrophes ing but I do feel like if we're not careful we may the we're living through the last days of the Roman Empire. We have become so unwilling to maintain our immune system as a as a as a culture as a civilization. Which is what what this is about. This is all about. We've become completely unwilling to defend values. Yup absolutely we're embarrassed about them where ashamed This we had a debate in this country ten years ago. Is there such a thing as British identity? What are you talking about? What on Earth Are you talking about? Every culture has its own identity every culture has its own values. And there's nothing wrong with that and the thing that drives me mad about it as well as all the things that terrible that were done by the British empire and Buy America undoubtedly. These things happened but the question for me is. Do you think that if it'd been other way round if it was Russia ruling the world is a Russian? I say this or if it was China ruling the world now or if there's lameck nations of the fourteenth century had continued their advance through southern Europe. Do you think that they would have not done any of these things people in Venice Ma B. Instead of riding on pronouns studying the Koran right and The this is just the flow of history. And as we know the lessons of history. No one learns lessons of history but I think and hope that we can be the first generation of people that pay some attention to it. Because if we don't if we don't who's but who's going to teach the history hasn't been taught or taught through various lenses yes. Grievance Lenses says not understood yes. That's the problem absolutely but what we have to do is strengthen our immune system because if we don't civilization will collapse and the plenty of others waiting to take place believe you me. I come from Russia and smooth. I know lots of Chinese people then then talking about gender pronouns in those countries they get ready so western civilization needs to defend itself needs to defend its valleys. The needs to remember what they are. And then defendant was so intense the on describing in here in Britain. I I come from Australia. We will once a colony. The original seen it seems in Britain. Today is that it was once a colonizing country right now in fact as months that was good and noble just as it was clumsy inappropriate and some downright evil Things were done in the name of colonialism. We know them but we just don't seem to be able to adapt it with balance Norwood. We seem to be committed to learning what happened well enough to see if you WANNA putting it a better way. What worked and produced good APP comes and freedom and what didn't work because you need to lend from both nobody signing. We didn't get things wrong to everything wrong. And that's terrible and the question is what is the purpose of identifying the rooms of the past if the purpose of them is to learn from them. That is a useful exercise at a level of individual. If you look at yourself and what you've done wrong can improve. But if you look at yourself day and night and focus solely on your errors and your weaknesses and your failings and you do nothing else. That is a recipe for depression and that is a recipe for disaster and true individual. It is True Society. It is true civilization which is why focusing solely on that and failing to see it in the broader historical context. It's the death knell of Western civilization. And I hate to be the do. Do Dum Sand and talk about all this stuff but I see it coming anyone. Who's who knows anything by history sees coming. It's literally yourself. Why would you not try and break the circuit? Well the reason is that we live in a very prosperous society will go nothing today. We've got nothing better to do than sit around the naval base and then we're fraught and if we do actually step out and try and challenge some of the stupidity around says you say we get clobbered so it's more comfortable to stay calm. Yeah absolutely look John. Most people have got busy lives. They've got food to put on the table. I've got kids to bring up. They haven't got time for the culture wars they have time to explore gender pronouns. They're just trying to get on with life as best they can. But those of us who as Douglas says the only people who are allowed to speak now authors comedians and maybe some people who are rich enough that they don't care about the consequences those of us who are in this field we have a responsibility to call it like it is and the situation where now potentially is very very dangerous and the direction of travel is no good direction of travel is no good and we have to do something about it as a comedian. It seems that Part of the immune system for healthy society is it can laugh at itself and I think we've also understood that it contains a great deal about ourselves. You able to operate freely as a comedian in Britain more or less. I don't know if you know this but I was performing a comedy club just around the corner from here and some students were in and they saw me. They liked me and they invited me to perform at the university. And when they did they sent me what they call the behavioral agreement contract which said the interest of creating a safe space for comedy. They had zero tolerance policy on racism. Sexism Classism ageism ableson homophobia by four but transferred uniform Islam Phobia Anti Religion Anti Atheism and also said. The old jokes must be respectful. And kind of just trying to think with this any sort of could not be potentially caught up in one of those categories particularly the respectful. And kind I mean even self deprecating jokes are not kind to you if you make jokes about yourself the deducted various rallies it it was one of the things about British culture. Yes was that you took in good humor a good ribbing is would call it no strider absolutely lafferty so it didn't take yourself so seriously that you immediately resorted to date. Defense is a sign of maturity ability to live for yourself is the sign of maturity an adolescent struggles with that that's why youngest societies including Russia. There isn't that culture at all. No he brushes. Don't like when I make fun of Russians know so the British attitude. They make fun of themselves. Will you are Russian? But yes Russians count McConnell. Who's the kind of little bit but it's got to be very careful? You can't be too biting. I remember as a schoolboy he and a hearing the one about Sergio ordering a cop and he's told A. Rod. In seven years Tom on such and such a dight You know I'm sure you've heard yes. And he says well let me in the morning off. I said well. What difference does it make whether it's just that I've got an appointment with the dentist that mooning yes so I'd rather pick it up in the afternoon? I think Nixon was a big old Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was a big Fan of those jokes about the unit. He used to tell them. Well I think he used humor to devastating effect. Actually Yeah So in the cold warrior but coming back to our discussion about British culture. I this is not even a joke. I just I sometimes say on stage. The I love this country and I say so publicly. Which is how you know. I'm not really British. Geno what I mean. There is this I think there was a point when this was healthy. But we've now reached the point where the desire to to smear and play down everything that makes you who you are is going a little bit too far. I see all the time when you go to a comedy club and you've got a a guy in his twenties token about how a straight white man. He's obviously evil. Bob And then there's a joke and and I think we're getting to that point where the desire to be self deprecating has become self-flagellation. And I think we've got to be careful by any comes from the thing that we've just talked about which is a fundamental failure to remember own value your value and your own values that something that you have to come back to and coming back further to your question about what it's like operating comedian. It's becoming very sensitive. People are becoming very sensitive I did my show in Edinburgh This year that festival about that contract and about everything that happened And I tried to push some of the boundaries of just just just to make my point and overall this is the other thing about this John. Is that ordinary people the public if you like a completely not on board with this progressive ideology but they're palace few palace to the. Yes. I'm busy as you said. Yes but particularly powerless and this is why people look up to Canadians. Writers Authors youtubers. Whoever who speak out against this and actually ordinary people feel like they can say what they think a lot more than I do as a comedian. Because I'm on stage every night and I broadly speaking I kind of kind of count. Say what I think. But if you're an ordinary person I mean there was a guy who was fired from his job in a supermarket a couple of months ago. 'cause he shed billy connolly routine about religion on his facebook right One of the things I talked about in my show is or let me ask you this In Russia lost you. Four hundred people were arrested for things that they said on social media. Four hundred people in Russia. Obviously this country very different. How many people do you think were arrested? In Britain for things. They sat on social media. Loss jet go take a guess. Three thousand three hundred really arrested for sit on social really. What sort of things get your example? I've given my show is There was a young woman from Liverpool Chelsea Russell and people can look this up Her friend was killed in a car. Crash nineteen year old woman and she posted lyrics of his favorite song on her instagram. The lyrics and there was a rap song so the lyrics contain several instances of the N. Word she was arrested prosecuted found guilty given five hundred hours of community service on the fine tagged and four years. She was eight. Pm TO A. M. Curfew goodness in Britain in Britain in two thousand eighteen. So we talk about the China's system of social credit right And describe it as the creation of merging of a digital prison. But we're doing it to ourselves voluntarily in the West satisfied absolutely and we'll cancel people socially if I say the wrong on Social Media. But you're telling me now that three and a half thousand people were visited by police farm over visited by the police. Rommel their cases just tough year ago and I defend the job. Randa British comedian over this. She made some comments. Would you know it wasn't a great job? But she. She talked about this during the milk shaking episodes. Why people having milkshakes them she said that well it'd be five doing some acid over them right. That's there's not a great joke but she got a visit from the police on the basis that she was quote inciting violence and they eventually decided not to proceed with was prosecution but he was obviously a joke. She's a comedienne she was on. She was on comedy program. The context is very clear right and The the defining case actually in recent British history on this was the tanker incident. I don't know if this is a Scottish youtuber who made Okay so his. This is quite quite an interesting one to explain his girlfriend. Had PUG dog. You know those ugly dogs I'm GonNa tell you about spectacle your dog and she thought it was the cutest thing in the world and he wanted to annoy her for a prank so he trained the dog to be the most horrific thing that he could think of. Which in this case was a Nazi so he tried this dog to do a Nazi salute. Right he posted it on Youtube to his three. You've subscribers at the time and overnight. The video went completely viral. Three million views in like a week he was arrested. Convicted found guilty fined eight hundred pounds and he is to this day so I was the judge I it was hate speech. I tweet speech. Yeah oh no sorry is grossly offensive. He was being grossly offensive. That's that's the correct legal terminology And he to this day. Hey criminal when the papers right about him they legally allowed to call him a naughty Hickory. Wow that is where we are and it really started with that. I talk about all of these things in my show where we are now in a position where in that core case the prosecutor argued that context and intent irrelevant and the judge accepted this so even by retelling the story to you now I am potentially engaging in grossly offensive behavior context and intent. According to these people are irrelevant. Now get your mind around that and think about the potential implications of that was extruder. That is where we are is funny like I said I was. I was I was chatting before. I think we thought that I was having dinner with a friend from Saudi about this and I told her and she couldn't believe it you know. So what does that say about us? General and was like really in Britain. Business a Free Country. That is where we are. And that's why I say we have to push back against it and go back to ward off fundamental values of civilization. John What are they for speech for association as you said right and respect for the individual and the rights of individual. That's not to say that community isn't important but there's a level of rights that will have the point about the individual wing important which which are to me though is that if i Sai- I have value as an individual artist. I said You yes and I cannot diminish. You will do correct. That's where the community bid comes in chores. Exactly unless of course we get to the situation where we are now. Well I have more value because my skin is darker than yours. I have more value because I come from abroad. And well actually in this case you do as well but you know what exactly what you meant. But it's Jonathan hotpoint in a way to. We're raising our children to believe that life is a battle between good people and bad people not was one of your countrymen. Celts nights said if it was if it if it was just as if only it was a simple as that yeah if life was a battle between good people and bad pipeline you wanted to goodwill will you just eliminate the bad paper wouldn't and then you'd have a good world but that's how these people think that's why we need others to help us along the way and you mentioned slows units and one of the great things and I wish everybody read the Gulag Archipelago. Not only did he detail the camps. Which in that moment in time was not something anyone knew about it was smuggled the books out absolutely nuts other become known exactly but da the point that he details in the book is his personal journey from being a committed communist. From fighting for the Soviet Union on the eastern front and believing in everything decorative and yes absolutely going to that to the full from pride the full from pride when he spoke out when he wrote some private letters about Joseph Stalin to a friend and he details for. It's a. It's a great scene in the book where he details. How as he was being escorted back to the Soviet Union? There was a German soldier as part of their convoy who? He made carry his own suitcase because he felt that he was above him. And you can see for the rest of the book. This idea of his feeling of superiority. Percolating is this something that he needs to reassess and that is what this lack of humility is something that I think as an individual. I've gone through this myself. You know particularly when you're young you don't have any sense of humidity. Thank you the bill and Endo as you grow a new mature you need other people to help you position yourself correctly and society and realized that you are not the center of the universe and if we have a culture now which we do where every young person taught that they are absolutely the center the center of the universe the center of everyone's universe. That's the problem. If they would just the scent of they aren't you know this. Is You know if I am sensitive to noise. No one is allowed to clap as we know from one of our universities which banned clapping if it's bad clubbing. What he's supposed to do to stay right well. Jazz jazz head which of course discriminated against blind people but they haven't seemed to consider that yet so blind people will come out next. This is going to be good web. We weave way he's GonNa keep getting woven is that's the correct word because I'm predicting right now to you and check this a year from now. We're going to have a conversation about privilege because as you know ninety percents of fortune. Five hundred CEOS over six toll and the risk discrimination against show people in just is just how we evolved right. We perceive big people as being better leaders stronger. Whatever whatever my baby. We're GONNA talk about that we're GonNa talk about attractiveness privilege attractive. People get treated differently on track to people and we're going to keep going down this mental rabbit hole. I was wondering how you're doing so well Yes exactly am I a five foot. Seven high has really helped me. John this is this rabbit hole is gonNA keep getting deeper and deeper unless enough of US. Speak out against it. You mentioned right. What you're doing is so important. You mentioned prime. So yes Louis. Absurd that laws at the heart of every human fighting and he said pursue humility. With every ounce of your energy but neither the minute you think you making progress you know you're not the we've abandoned that it's good to be proud now. In fact at some point we decided that pride was a move valued human characteristic than humility. And yet if you stop and think about that for just a moment the people wait I must comfortable with unlike most of those who are not full of themselves who are humble who do consider others of significance and importance and look after they needs and seek to be helpful and this is what happened to us. We become so blind. Well this is where we come back to what you're doing right now and what I do with my colleague Francis on trigonometry because this and I know this is why you came back after your Days in the desert post politics is using the Disney. Yeah well what's actual? Tom Did this biblical town for it. Sounded like the wandering in the desert or something something like that When you came back you did it because you wanted the conversation to return to the Public Square. It's I don't know of blood or go remotest with it's just contribution. Yes a modest contribution to demonstrate you can have a civil conversation right but duels. How important are these absolutely? We get this constant trickle of young people his love listening to these conversations and I love podcast young Mabel now because we can't get the sort of variety of us at school strike university striped workplace. One young man said the other day he'd watched everything on produced an music to my ears. I mean strike my vanity. I have to be honest but he said it is helped me for the first time since I was a kid living at home with mom and dad to believe could actually own my real views instead of having to deny on the on what are really thought things. I didn't believe absolutely we've really got to that. We have we have got to the demise common common. The we get on videos on trigonometry is. Why don't I see this in the mainstream media? Why don't I go to in the mainstream media verse? Simple the mainstream media dying and what we're seeing is the death throes of clinging media establishment trying to hold onto power as best. They can which is why in my experience. When I've written an article for and I write for several publications it is inevitably the case that I write what I think is a reasonable well-balanced fought for piece and the headline that gets attached to. It is the most provocative incendary thing that you've ever seen the mainstream media and now the ones who are doing the click. Yes they are. The ones who do click and that is because the numbers are plummeting. They see US coming. Air Fight the terrified because ordinary people who want the truth or one. Not even the truth. Just an honest conversation I swear to God I find myself enjoying people whose views I completely dislike and disagree with if they're honest so to a much more thing and I think that's healthy by the way. I don't think that's a healthy thing for society to be that way but if you create a vacuum of truth than any objectivity or honesty then people will be drawn to honesty on authenticity. This is I think one of the reasons that Donald Trump was so successful. He feels authentic. He feels like you know who that guy is. You know what he says and why he says it even if a lot of the things that he says you don't person agree with but he feels authentic to a lot of people and vacuum of authenticity. It's like George Collins the great comedian he said that the most important thing in show show businesses authenticity. If you can fake that you can do anything. That's kind of. That's kind of where we are where anyone who seems like they're attentive. The prime minister in this country right. Now we'll get an advantage by having that feeling of authenticity because everyone else is a great cardboard cutout politician. The you have no idea what they stand for. You have no idea what they are. They've been media trained out of their brains and they can't ever formula a thought the ordinary person go get. I agree with that. Because it's all been prepackaged pre tested and it's not real and that's why people will gravitate towards people like us doing what we do and that will only continue on. That's why the mainstream media terrified that absolutely terrified. Look at the interview. The Caffeine did Jordan. Pitas news I can't understand how no one channel four so that and when we count possibly put this out it's embarrassing but they did and they got the attention they deserve but what they don't realize these people is. It's one time attention. You Watch that interview and you will never watch into with calcium and again comedy surely the APP that really goes to the human condition. What is it? That's unique about comedy. Let's cut through to who we really are the point of comedies to cut through the bullshit. It's to cut through all the things that we pretend to believe and get to what we actually believe. That's why your most memorable moment from comedy will always be listening to someone talking about something that you think but you don't realize you think yeah that's how it always works and I actually myself more eastern satire than comedy in quite a difference between the two My Good Friend Ondo. Light is kind of a quote from someone who I can never remember which is the comedy is kind and pessimistic. An- satire is angry and optimistic in other words comedies about accepting the will does it his and being kind about making it okay to to laugh at whatever the human condition maybe where satire which is what I lean into more Is Angry optimistic? It's angry because it's not happy with the way the world is and it's optimistic because it believes things we just can charge you and I am much more interested in satire and the reason is coming back to the Soviet Union very much. We didn't have Sata in the Soviet Union. We did not have Sata Sardinian in Stalinist Russia. If you made a joke even privately the go pass down to authorities. You will be killed. You'll be sent to the Gulag and worked death or you'd be shot even in nineteen ninety s. Russia. Boris Yeltsin. The first president of Russia came to power. We had a brief moment when there was liberalization. There was an opening up and we had the equivalent of It was a puppet show equivalent to spitting image. And you guys had your own one in Australia. I can't remember what it's called the I remember what it was cool. I was on I was on the TV program with Julia. Gillard recently told Ryan by the actually interestingly So it was the first time in modern history on will probably in any history of Russia. Frankly where you could see the people in power be brought down a notch and be made fun of and I remember as a young boy I would have been twelve the whole family and this was true of all my family friends and everybody would be sitting down whenever that show was on and watching. Because it was so revolutionary. It was incredible today. The Putin came to Pyla they won. He called up the TV channel. He spoke to the main person and he said you can continue the show two months. You Never Fun. Make Fun of the President you never ever make fun of the President and they had a bunch of other things that they wanted and the Satra refused the channel. Shutdown taken away from the People. Who did they were persecuted in left? Russia and the main saturate the man convicted. Derovic has never worked in that way again. Size very valuable. It is unique DEVORAH. It is read to have a society where the powerful are up for scrutiny. In that way interrupt for laugh in that way and it's very very important. Yeah I wish I could do it but are calm on the other end of afraid. You know I'm just a broken down farmer but just related out of that. Different types of humor love it. I'm incredibly impressed by. I wish I were good at it myself but I love it when others are very very quick. Repartee flies. Behemoth is what I don't like is degrading or per fine ole obscene humor I don't like the sort of humor that puts down and destroy. She's somebody else's dignity the pomposity perhaps but not the dignity house difference so thin line is a thin line. It's it's an everybody's interpretation of those words like pomposity indignity will be different. This is the thing about comedy is people take differently and we never know really when we say things which of them is it. Something type of dignity overtime show pomposity. So that's why I always defend the COMEDIANS right to experiment and play and make mistakes. It's very important Because without it there is no comedy. There is no humor because we never know. I don't know I'M GONNA go on stage tonight with some new material. Temps percent of is going to be good. Ninety percent was going to be terrible. That's how it always works. I wish he would. I hope you don't come. I'm GonNa make sure you don't come in. I'm not going to tell you where it is. But that's how that's how it works so We have to preserve the right of COMEDIANS. But actually everybody to make mistakes I understand that and then we need to be prepared to give them you. You really A very thoughtful. You've quite at Benjamin. Franklin the American founding father does who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety what is essential liberty to me is the freedom to speak your mind. Sa- freedom to speak your mind because by speaking your mind. You Guarantee Yourself Zola freedoms if you have the right as the slaves were demanding to argue for your freedom then you will eventually win if the truth is on your side and you will eventually plame the rights that are owed to you by society. That believes that everybody's equal you can advance some progress through freedom of speech. That's why I call it the cornerstone because it's the founding principal. And if you don't have that you don't have everything else freedom of speech and the things that come with is the reason that the West has been so successful because people since then lightman have been been able to pursue science study exploration because of and that is why the west of the successful as it is and it's a guarantee of a strength to guarantee of competitive success to guarantee of Our economic success. It's a guarantee of everything that's why it's essential liberty one of the things that strikes me as interesting about the current debate. I take your point that but is that many of the people who on now exposing the absurdity of the position we find ourselves in which is being driven lots of self climb progressive members of the left is that it's people from left who have been very quick when they're honest to show the dangerous say you stop and think of some comedy Some comedians who that how'd to be conservative? I suspect him in the many You know it will. It'll in saying that but people who will will not on a strategy to Ron Atkinson. Stephen Fry John cleese Bill Ma. They all attacked this emerging humorless the ticket by the Progressive Left. What's going on? They're probably coming I. It's a fundamental threat to what we DISA- lift critiquing liftoff but my point is those people because they comedians because they come from that background they recognize without the freedom to explore ideas and sometimes by the way John to cross the line. This is something that people forget is we're human beings all of us and if you have a culture where you make one mistake and you're done one mistake you'll done forever that's not GonNa work. This is part of this sort of unbelievably pompous self righteousness the MAG companies the idea that works the center as you say of the universe That we We just can't cope with the idea that somebody shouldn't have something. I said. Fifteen or twenty years ago held against them and Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in this town in the city makes the point that the washing out of forgiveness at Great Judeo Christian demand that we be prepared to forgive and our relationship works. If you can't forgive how does a marriage relationship work? 'cause you gotTa do the wrong thing from time and you've got to be reflective enough to say when you spouses to you. You've done the wrong thing is I will think that through. Perhaps I have and then apologize. I mean when be forgiven and then to be forgiven. But it's it's a really important concept a family. A Community of society can work if you wash forgiveness out but not with might have worse because we can't forget everything's been recorded by social media so if forgiveness is gone then perhaps you've got the height but people might forget. Let's on his will now. That's why forgiveness is probably the crucial thing right now because as you say things can't be forgotten but also touch on religion and I'm someone who's not. I'm a non believer but I can't help but think that what we've created as a society won't be killed God is the vacuums that inevitably has to be filled and when it gets filled it gets filled by new religion which is what social justice and Intersection. -ality and all of that now is they have priests having questions. The only thing they don't have in that religion is redemption and forgiveness. Ron and that is a pretty horrible religion. Can you imagine a religion with no forgiveness and redemption while you stray once and your forever tormented and help or in living hell? It's not gonNA work. It's not sustainable. And forgiveness is the crucial thing which is why. I'm always encouraged when I see politicians Andrew Yang. I see him trying to introduce some of that. There was a guy who said some racist things on a podcast who got hired for comedy program and then got fired and Andreanne came out and he was racism about Chinese people and said well I forgive him. You know people make mistakes. That's reassuring to me. We need more of that. But it's got to be a shift that happens at the level of society if we don't have forgiveness. I don't side understand how this world is GONNA work. I honestly a absolutely concur with you. I really do. I think it's an incredibly important a matter that we're only now starting to think about if we can't forgive we can't move on what's more. We Rubber Society of many good and capable people who had judged full something they said in a moment of anger or lapse of judgement twenty or thirty years before. That's absurd the other absurdity. Is it locks us into a view that you can't grow? You can't become an old and I'm not as now that we seem to think well adults of made a complete mess of the world and we OUGHTA handed over to the children. Some academic speed putting forth the idea that we ought to give children as young as six. The vote obviously wiser than adults. Who have ruined everything. So we've Gone Mad. But thank you for unpacking some the value of your perspectives. I think Enormous because as is so often the case. You're able to look at it all from the perspective of somebody who's been locked into. Dhaka sawed well. I hope he keep doing what you're doing is very important and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing it. All it takes to make the world a slightly better places enough people who had done the right thing which is what I think. You're doing. Thank you very much. Have become to a strider. Thanks for much. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson for further content visit John Anderson Dot net dot Edu.

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Conversations: Featuring Niall Ferguson MA, D.Phil, Senior Fellow, Stanford University

John Anderson: Conversations

1:40:37 hr | 2 years ago

Conversations: Featuring Niall Ferguson MA, D.Phil, Senior Fellow, Stanford University

"You're listening to conversations with John Anderson, featuring Neil, Ferguson. Ladies and gentlemen. Please. Welcome John Anderson and Neil, Ferguson. Thank you very much being with us less time, you off spike in your place. So if you'll place of con- residence on the west coast of America, we were talking about freedom. And the threats to the freedoms that we value and should value more. And you saw those threats in ascending order as being first radical Islam. Secondly, the rise of China, a one party state and the risk of miscalculation superpower versus the risings of. But Thirdly and interestingly, I thought fascinating use the greatest threat is our self loathing, and a lack of understanding all around he streak so culturally shoes, if you like what we've become now plice future in some jeopardy. Now preps the most respected on preeminent of stranded print journalists editor at large and here, Paul Kelly wrote recently, and I thought it was a very sobering. Woods if I can quite him said that it may not be possible for leaders to succeed in societies that have lost their traditional virtue. And much of a civic glue that held them together. So to start off with a simple one. Do we in the west individually and collectively need to rediscover those virtues, and I had to go and have a good look to make sure what the classic virtues were prudence Justice temperance on courage. We need to rediscover them virtues on an I think civic glue is perhaps the more important variable. There. If you live in the United States, you'll constantly assailed by the noise of the culture war. The culture war is tearing America apart tearing it apart along multiple lines racial generational gender. You name it. Those those division that somebody's trying to explain and alert these divisions. Not knew what I think is new is a completely uncivil quality to discourse the old rules of engagement the rules of debates that I I suppose I I grew up with in the west of Scotland whether there were certain rhetorical rules. But generally speaking an argument had to be supported by facts in the culture war that doesn't any longer apply. Why in the cultural what you try to do is to destroy the reputation of the person on the other side, you simply attack their good, faith, and doesn't really matter. What facts they may bring to the table. The question is simply one of of the approving that that about faith. And I think this atmosphere is deeply unhealthy. It's very difficult to to have a democracy function. If it's being torn apart in this way. And if rational arguments is no longer a legitimate moods of settling differences. Why wife is much more interesting and wonderful than I'll ever be on her see Ali said in a in a recent speech in vol- places, chili that we no longer live in a democracy. We live in an Emma, Chrissy with emotions Trump facts. I was profoundly struck by this. I wish I'd said it myself. I said that's an amazing idea. Because that that's absolutely right. It's not a question of of being able to debate of conventional debate in which arguments are deployed with with evidence. It's now just who's emotion wins. Who is most upset who has been most wrongs. That's how we are. Now trying to settle issues issues often of great complexity. So I do think that that he's writing the something amiss in the way that we in the way. That we debate not virtues thing about virtues is that they are as Perennials vices. One of the hardest things to understand about human history. Is that there are certain things that are constant in the human condition, which enable us to understand to cities or Shakespeare? I was recently reimbursing myself in Shakespeare is a kind of mental diet really mental cleansing mental restoration stop listening to podcasts and watching you'll Twitter feed. Listen to Shakespeare, and the most striking thing about about reimbursing myself and Shakespeare, which was was wonderful, I discovered lots and lots of old nineteen sixties BBC recordings pull Scofield as MacBeth was the realization that we can completely understand the dynamics of MacBeth we understand Beth somewhat unthinking ambition and we understand lady, baths, more intellectual mission. Self-destructs? We completely get Beth. I took a seven year old son to see MacBeth in London over the holidays. And he got it to. I mean, that's a long time ago. We we're talking about half a millennium apart. We understand that the Nomex there. And yet we all playing out virtue in vice I'm Bishen and revenge who Brisa nemesis in a technologically transformed landscape that Shakespeare would be baffled by where he to wonder it and wonder what we would doing. So I think the key here is don't expect us to be more virtuous than the Elizabeth ans and don't expect us to be much worse than them. But the virtues and the vices have been in this endless struggle over the centuries. That will never change. The question is whether we have institutions of civic life that encourage incentivizes today virtuously, and that's I think the problem, right? I think it was a colleague of yours Thomas. Soul who noted recently crib. A little lines to here. It's not that little Johnny doesn't know how to think it's not the little Johnny doesn't know how to feel the trouble is that little Johnny can no longer till the difference. That's a perfect cue for a glass of scotch to anything. I want to assure you that I'm having this appeal medicinal purposes because I have a slightly ticklish throat and only whiskey can prevent me from coughing convulsively. That is the only reason I'm drinking lift break tonight, the freighter, delicious island, single, malt, my favorite, he's monopolizing. It. I might add you you're very welcome to have it John. But I can't forward into that glass. This way too much water. Whenever you're ready. Well, we had a good question on this question of of feelings versus reality from paid a Madden. Just back from a stint in Ghana helping out with their conomy and prudential arrangements pita. My question Adam Smith wrote the theory of moral sentiments before the wealth of nations Smith recognized people in a community tend to share sense of mutual sympathy for one another. I think this is what led to trade and commerce, but after life in sub Saharan Africa. I see the west is Hypo occupied with social personal feelings, including in the workforce. From your writings on civilizations. The role of finance and economics, generally. I'm interested in your thoughts on how does his new? Moral sentiment looked to be affecting. Asocial fabric. Thank you to welcome. Welcome back from from Ghana. I I think everybody as pulse of a good university education should read both the wealth of nations and the theory of moral sentiments, I I grew up in in Adam Smith Landon Scotland. And I remember one day I was ill and couldn't go to school, and my father who didn't really believe in illness in his own children news, doctor and didn't regard illnesses legitimates in his own children came in before he went to work and handed me a copy of the wealth of nations with the words, you'd better read that. He never had the theory of moral sentiments, and I came to that much later, but it's natural companion to the wealth of nations and the key point to understand this spits observe -ation that one regard the market economy in isolation, it's embedded in civil society. And we don't really have a functioning market economy based on exchange without trust. And and empathy in particular, which is really key idea in Smith's thinking. So we all need to make sure we don't just read the wealth of nations. I sometimes think a generation of economists were only really thinking about the wealth of nations. I'm not sure that even read the book, but they kinda read the Wikipedia summary and not realizing that that if you just do a marketing Kona me without civil society. It's unlikely to work this really well at a straight by what happened in the ROY. Russian economy after the Soviet collapse. The political scientists in Komatsu Russia to advise the Russians essentially said, oh, you have to do very simple old elections. And then have a stock market and dumb, and they didn't realize that in the absence of civil society in the rubble of the Soviet Union. If all you do is is elections and privatization in the stock market. Then pretty quickly the agok said in charge because there wasn't that foundation of civil society that Ditz did exist in the country like Poland that hadn't been on the communist rule for so long. So this is a crucial insight that Smith that Smith gives us on a reminder that we call how economic without the the social and cultural foundation within which market economy Qanoni function. It's same really is the rule of law. You expect a marketing comedy function without the rule of law. So. So I guess that's really a really general and universally applicable insight. Now, if Smith were around today, he would have to rise different book, and it would be cold the theory of moral outrage because the default setting for anybody wishing to make a points in politics. Today's outrageous one has to be states of of moral indignation to to get anywhere. And so really, this is echoing what I said earlier, the tenor of debate tends to be almost the opposite of that empathy and sympathy the Smith soul is so central to functioning society. If you really want to be outraged and get yourself what top into a state of righteous indignation. You must first off, the empathy. No attempt to see the other person's point of view because that would make it much halted to be outraged. Empathy is what a good parents teaches a child as soon as possible children start off, very pathetic. A new train them to be pathetic. Dig think that Joni really didn't particularly enjoy that punch. You gave him on the nose. I say that's a Tomas on a regular basis and gradually Thomases a quad as a quad empathy. He'll lose it again when he becomes a teenager, of course. But you know, you you you live in hope that you'll embedded, but I the sense that the the social Justice war is of American campuses, a engaged in some round, the different process to try to stamp, out empathy, don't fat heaven sake, put yourself in the position of somebody who voted for Donald Trump because if you what's empathize for a moment with that. Mission a say a relatively unskilled white working class votes from middle America, if you were to empathize with them. You might forget for second that they are nothing other than the instruments of white supremacy in the patriarchy to be crushed. So we are actually witnessing a sustained campaign against empathy in order to keep the level of moral indignation high enough for whatever goal is in in the minds of the social Justice movement. You touched on the issue of trust as being vodka important in this whole question of the relationship between if you like a civic society and good economic and political outcomes. This research everywhere in this country demonstrating that Australians have lost trust in the system. The levels of distrust in politicians is at record levels, the lack of trust is at record levels. We just had a Royal commission of inquiry into banking and financial services with confronting something. Like, seventy seventy five recommendations out of it. You could say it's a good thing. We had it because it turned up all sorts of things that people were horrified by a good thing that recommendations, but the issue it seems to me is that every time trust breaks down. And we find that people won't do voluntarily. What we expect them to do. We rushed for the rule book. We looked to coerce them. And I actually have come to think that this quarter relationship between the breakdown of trust and the potential for the loss of freedom. Those new rules the policing that will go with the censorious attitude. That's developed it will cost it will cost. It will not be a good thing for our economy over society. It would have been far better fitted never been needed relationship between trust and freedom. Any thoughts? Many thoughts. Fukuyama roads that book about this year's got in the nineteen nineties on. I remember being very struck. By the vacation that the trustees a kind of social capital that some societies have and another stones. He's just was in Africa. There are some African societies. Whether really is almost no trust and one relies on on the Kalashnikov RAV of entrust. I remember a friend of mine that Chinese friends saying, you know, the big difference between you guys beating westerners off is that your default setting to trust someone when you meet them in all's is the precise opuses. So how did you say that this was about ten years ago? I wonder if he's I hope he'd still say what he said in Singapore north in mainland China, and yet he was from mainland China. I think if one looks at the decline of trust in institutions because that's a different thing from trust in a stranger. There's been a steep decline in in the trust that people feel in institutions in most developed countries if you look at the polling on the United States, very few institutions. I have not seen a marked decline in trust over thirty to forty eight time period because we have Gallup data the US greenback. The nineteen seventies. The decline interest in congress is very striking. I mean, it's been down in the single digits some points in recent years, but you've also seen a decline in trust in the supreme cool and surprisingly the presidency, but that certainly predates Donald Trump. The military is an exception in the American case trust is actually risen in the ministry. Relative to the nineteen seventies props. That's not surprising because the seventies was the time of Vietnam. Still high levels of trust in the police, but most institutions of experienced a significant decline in trust and amongst the worst non-political institutions in these terms of the banks. Jonasson the banks vied to be bottom of the trust league table. Now is this calls people have for whatever reason withdrawn that trust capriciously lows because the banks and indeed the media in most developed countries of people's trust, by the way, they've acted. I'm not going to get into the details at the strolling. Thanks. But let's let's look at the biggest banks in the world and the ones that in many ways with the epicenter of the financial crisis. The American banks. They had behaved in a range of ways the were no illegal. They were compliant with regulation, or at least the regulators tolerated them, but the consequences for ordinary people would catastrophic not just because of the misspelling all financial products that were bad, but because the whole thing turned into massive systemic crisis that nearly blew up the world economy the way, the nineteen twenty nine crashed it we had a very close. I mean, you kind of forgotten it. But that nearly was a great depression because of the way the backs will run an book about this sense of money and spent some time thinking about what had happened one of the striking features. And this goes to your question John about the banks is that they were actually the most regulated entities in the US financial system on the eve of the crisis. People had worried the hedge funds would cause the next financial crisis all the unregulated derivatives markets. No, it was the highly regulated which a whole bunch of regulators was supposed to be watching over and. And he hit me as I was writing the sense of money. The culture of banking had fundamentally changed over the twenty or so years before the financial crisis from a culture, which was based on informal understandings relatively light supervision in which you try to do the right thing to culture in which you simply complied with the regulation. All we compliant is a very different question from always doing the right thing. I read a biography of man named secret Warburg really unusual figuring financial history because he didn't really mean to be a banker he was really a- a Stoler intellectual had become a Bank because of the way the Nazis forced him from his German homeland. He started over in in London. Name built of financial business S G Warburg that was fundamentally based on his own sense of integrity. And Warren was the kind of person if you didn't like the look of somebody wouldn't do business with them. No matter how much money they had role. But maxwell. Walks into Warburg's, walks out again and Warburg says we will have nothing to do with that man that scene in which a moral judgment is made about a potential relationship that kinda scene had simply ceased to happen on Wall Street by two thousand six seven the only question was we comply and can we do this? Can we do this is this? Okay. And that's a completely different mindset from the one that Warburg saw central to a successful functioning financial order the bankers in America. And I think this was treated, and perhaps even more true in Britain lost the trust of people for a reason, and they have to win it back and then going to win it back in a hurry anymore than the media companies who've pedaled fake news misrepresented stories opted for sensation over factor anymore than those media companies are going to win back trust. So let's blame Audrey people for losing trust. Whether it's in the US. All banks. They have every reason to lost trust. And institutions have got to win it back, and that's not going to happen overnight. Your question regulations. Interesting just isn't Assad one of the institutions that came out of the recent inquiry. I think with the most bloodied nose, frankly was the IMP stranded mutual problem society. It was set up quite a while ago by a clergyman and Jeffrey blinding, one of strategies most imminent historians wrote over that it was became after the church is one of the greatest forces for economic and social good in the country. And it was trusted to an extraordinary degree. My point is that was happening in today when there was very very little prudential regulation. Indeed that was simply trusted to do the right thing without coercion. Well, the problem is that in the aftermath of the crisis. And I imagine it will be true in the aftermath of this commission. What people say is. Well, look dreadful. These people are what can we do about it while we really must regular. The more tightly. So let's have even more regulation with even more detailed prescription of this or that bad practice. Let's have it runs a hundreds and thousands of pages. I mean, certainly the regulation that was praised in the US after financial crisis is enormously long complex. And surely once we've written a regulation for every possible misdeed, then good behavior will ensue, and this is just an amazing illustration of our ability as human beings to keep doing the wrong thing in the face of all experience because clearly the more complex regulatory framework them more the mentality becomes are we compliant, and can we gain this? So the big problem with regulation is not just the the unintended consequence that people stop asking. Is this the right thing? They ask is compliant. There's another problem. And that is the big players are actually protect. Added by complex regulation. A new entrance are excluded. Because if you want to run a Bank in the United States today, you need a compliance department the size of ten times this room, if you wanna be in view Bank for startled back. Forget it. Because the costs of that compliance department are going to stop you getting off the ground. No new banks were formed in the United States for ten years after crisis because it was too difficult to start a new back. Never American history. Has there been appeared after crisis? When no new banks were formed, so regulation has doubled down side the more complex. It is the more actually protects the incumbents and reduces competition. So we need to fundamentally rethink the idea that if there's a problem, we can fix it with regulation. The only law of history is the law of unintended consequences, and it really applies in. This domain are written book about this called the great degeneration. I wish it had been widely read and its lessons applied. I'm sure it's all. Willing Australia will I I will it sold in in a strategy. But may maybe maybe maybe tonight, we'll give it a lost recommend recommend not even a long one. Shortest. It's much shoulders of one of its central themes is that regulation is the disease of which it pretends to be the cure. Call cross was a brilliant Vini Sanchez who was my hero. When I was in undergraduate at Oxford Christ said that psychoanalysis was the disease, which you pretended to be the cure. So I had this to regulation, and it is true. I've been the the reality is the financial crisis arose from the way that the regulatory system was so complex that nobody really applied the rules, and we've made it even more complex. Luckily, luckily, Trump administration actually moved to simplify the regulation and guess what banks once again being created. But, but I do think that the law of unintended consequences in the realm of regulation is not well understood and voters are still rather inclined to respond to the situation. News bad, people did bad things financial institutions by saying something must be done about this that something should probably be regulation and politicians fetus and journalists feed it I mean. Paul Krugman on American. Journalists used to be an economist has often argued that the financial crisis all happened because of a deregulation, which is absolutely not true. And therefore the solution must be more regulation, but the kind of plays. Well, invoices are kind of that sounds right. Yeah. Probably if the were no regulations, they were bad, therefore, what we need to regulations. But but it's actually completely the wrong way of thinking about the problem. What's needed is? Simple regulation. Very very simple regulation, and then regulators with discretion would not complex regulations in the financial system that Walter badge. It wrote about in the late nineteenth century in the remarkable thing about the extraordinary complex system operated. London late night issues. I little regulation that was but it worked pretty well. That's precisely the point simplicity regulation, powerful, discretionary oversight. That's what a financial system needs. And surely a culture that recognizes trustees integral to have freedom and the trust is good for business because if institutions are competing to win trust, then you end up in a much better place. If the question becomes how can we win the trust of our customers back? No, how can we fleece the suckers you get a very different outcome. So I do think that we do we need to get back to some of the key insights of the lists if era, but don't kid ourselves less at doesn't mean it's a free for all that the were powerful regulatory instruments mostly wielded in those days before the first war by the Bank of England. The phenomenon of the governor of the Bank of England's eyebrows. You may be aware of the governor of the Bank of England by moving his eyebrows. Could have a profound effect on the Baber of an institution. I've always tried to persuade my Merican economics friends. I know you guys love rules, but actually what Walter badger is saying is nor but you need very rigid rules, you need actually powerful regulators with discretion. Those regulators need to have some some ethical sense themselves. But but I think for the Victorians that was self evident. Neil to Chomsky's and got back from to civic glue as we look in this country to America. And we certainly have since the second World War as our great protector in our great friend. And as I think as sometimes said, we Martin always. Be totally comfortable with the way. They go about things. But they're not great issues. We can resolve that the without the help of the Americans. It really does look to us that the civic glued bounded together and made it so successful ease dissolving. And I just wanna ask you Trump is often depicted. I think as the problem. By many. But it seems to me that in many ways, he's more the product rather than the cause of that tribalism, and that distrust and that division that NASA blots western countries. And he's on of course, America. Yeah. That's clear. Charles Murray brilliant book called coming apart, which I think it was published in two thousand eleven there. Then abouts. Joel's all use in it that the United States is experiencing social polarize ation between a cognitive leads in the super zip codes that has absolutely nothing to do with a low ploughs the is exclusively culturally sealed off from from the elite. Coming hall was a remarkable appreciate book brilliant book. If you read coming apart, you soul Trump coming because you understood the the polarization it created a fundamental sense of alien Asian amongst the latter group. I think Trump was a manifestation of the kind of social problems that Charles Marie Roosevelt and coming apart. It was not difficult to see in. The course of two thousand sixteen that for people in the so-called fly over states for middle America for non college educated, white Americans the woods something so badly wrong with the political system as personified by lary Clinton that you needed somebody to come in and disrupted the two things that most neatly summed up Trump's appeal was sent to me by a one. Wonderful man, Jerry Blake who's one of my one security detail, and Jerry is is no fool. He's former New York police department detective he previously was in the marine cool. He didn't go to college. But Jerry is no fool, and as a New Yorker Jerry knows quite a lot about Donald Trump's defects because you would have had to be blindfolded with knows cancelling headphones on as a cop in Jerry's time. Not to know about Donald Trump's defects. Jerry was the first person to explain to me in early twenty sixteen. Trump was gonna win. It's gonna be it's gonna be Trump new just gonna be Trump like share a Kim on curia break. All my Harvard. Professor friends say he has no chance and really just because because he tells it like it is he tells it like it is which men's he. Tokes like me and my mates. He doesn't talk like a professional politician with eight talking points. They memorized before they went on TV. And the second thing was even more telling he said Neal he's gonna shake things up. He's going to shake things up. And I thought that's it. He he's voting Trump four disruption. Trump's are wrecking bowl from Mike and Jerry the political system had become so disgusting. Hillary Clinton, so personified all that. They hated about the elites the hypocrisy climate change in the private jet climate change in the private jet that inability to speak in normal American English. That it was necessary to bring in Donald Trump and blow the whole thing up. So I think you erupted derived on this is a symptom of underlying divisions that had reached breaking point. It took me months to realize that Jerry was right. I mean, I had this kind of learning experience in in two thousand sixteen we'll maybe come back to it during Brexit came out of Brexit. Okay. Now, I get it. Because the Jerry's of Britain had voted for Brexit, gradually came became clear and clear to me that this was going to happen. And from the point of view of Jerry. There wasn't gonna be a miracle. All the manufacturing jobs were not magic you're gonna come back. Trump was not going to be some superhero. Jerry had no illusions about Trump and understood that the probabilities of making America great again when on onto percent, but the point was take this chance to take this chance on disruption because it was preferable to the continuation of the same old same old the Clintons. I mean, the choice. They were initially presented with Clinton Bush, which dynasty would you like your next president to be from and the revolt was essentially against that? And it was as much a revolt against the Republican establishment as it was a revolt. If people do forget that. Revolt against a against Jeb Bush against older establishment against the Neo conservatives, that's where it began actually in some ways less important the revolt against the democratic establishment. The big revolt was the one that go in the nomination. So yeah, I think all of that is right. And most of the things that people try to blame them. Oh, terrible toxic political atmosphere. Come on. It was already there. The polarize ation you can measure that it was a ready. They're the divisions were ready painfully abuse that you know, academic America completely cut itself off from middle America. I can give you an illustration of this. There was an academic group on the campus close to me that how to compensation along the lines of. I wonder if anybody here has ever, you know, meta Trump supporter and somebody said, actually. I am a Trump supporter, and it was like one of those Bateman cartoons wherever he goes. Because it Kurtz them in hacking. A B M pencil professes. The might actually be Trump supported the question was had anybody met one. So that level of distance that complete isolation of of the academic elite from the rest of the country was part of the the pathology that Trump was elected to deal with tell me something you often make the comment that the six killer apps at the west has Mike it more successful. One of them's free speech at allows for free debate. The testing of our rejection of bad ones for innovation at the very least. It seems to me that Trump by saying the unthinkable, according to the elites that happened to accord with what people in the street with thinking, surely it's been if nothing else good for free speech. It's interesting that Trump recently opened up a new front in fact, debate by saying in a speech that he gave at APEC, the he was gonna come after colleges the didn't allow free speech on campuses by withdrawing federal funds, very interesting development. But he should wait into that debate. If you take a step back, obviously, it is a reality. That free speech is become more circumscribed on American campuses is also becoming more limited on the on the internet. And there's no question that the skew is against the rights rather than against the extremes on the left. Trump's contribution is an interesting one because one defining feature of Trump's discourse is the is not very truthful, and the president has a relationship to truth that is casual. Best bond, so endless op-eds get written about all. This is the one thousand nine hundred and thirteenth lie that Trump has uttered since becoming president. And that is true. He suddenly. Is not somebody famed for his veracity. But they're also intrudes that Trump has uttered that are in some ways more politically salient an important than his many, many untruths. And I think people forget that the substance of Trump's campaign was more important in the style doll was important. He tells it like it is that matter, but if it just being Trump kind of winging it like a guy in a bar is that a couple of drinks that wouldn't have been enough the Wisconsin the and it was powerful and important contents. At Trump, essentially observed that the problems of middle America were consequences of globalization that had gone too far that there would be. Unrestricted migrations, including substantial legal immigration previous. I'd impacted the lives of ordering Americans that Chinese competition and outsourcing manufacturing jobs to China had been something that affected the lives of ordinary Americans. And that America's trade deals had not been fed deals actually being harmful to the United States. And I think that's the key to Trump's victory. Both parties signed up essentially to the audio legit globalization and free trade, and you weren't criticize that Trump was regarded as a compete maverick starting to talk about tariffs and saying the Chinese were guilty of bending the rules, but it was through. It was absolutely true. That liberalisation had been very beneficial one percent of the top of the income distribution. And actually not great for owner. That was true. And because Trump was the first politician to come out and say it to challenge the globalization. Senses. That was why he want so. Yeah. Lots of little lies about stormy Daniels and much else bonds. The key truths about the situation of the media, American hustle. Those are the things that go him. Let not the lines. So that evaluation of not being heard someone say full plays out in the form of a controversial president lying things up. The other side of the Atlantic it results in Briggs. It. They tell us a lot about the price we pay when trust breaks down when we stop understanding others, and they perspective when they feel alienated from their own society from their own leaders you so from had. Something of a change of views on breaks. But what does it tell us? And how do you say unfolding now? Brexit. Was suddenly clear to me one night in a pub inside wells. The prince of Wales, which is wonderful pub, my favorite pub in the world. And I was sitting in the prince weaker so before the referendum I should make. I was in the side of remain. I was against up Brexit. I'd I'd written a variety of articles and given interviews and speeches and the core of my argument was essentially, this is divorce and divorced coastal more and takes a lot longer than you think. When you start at any divorcees hear anybody wanna disagree with that. It's certainly no easy. And I also felt politically that the consequence of the referendum going full Briggs would be the full of David Cameron. The prime minister that I thought was talented, and I had the strong suspicion that the beneficiary would be Theresa May about Houma had a much lower opinion. So my practical political reason to sitting in the public, South Wales. And I am Knicks to Amanda, and he's introduced to me as the man who. Who owns the biggest liquor store of license? What do you call them? Here place that sells booze. Enbridge end. Like, go, very nice to meet you. He's do do, you know, the most popular beers. We sell. An conversations are always interesting in the prince of Wales. Saigo no, tell me what was popular beers that you sell and he says polish and Lithuanian beer. Oh, well, I said very naively that must make you a big supporter of remain if you'll principal customers happen to be employees from the new Member States of the European Union working in Britain and spending their hard earned money in your store. He looks at me. As completely demented says, no. Brexit, but it was just shows home much bloody money they're making here. Now, the whole basis of the remain campaign was the Brexit was going to be expensive and George Osborne. Then chance of the exchequer these mandarins at the treasury calculated exactly how much it was going to cost every single Britain to the last penny. I said to George we have a problem because they don't care. About the coast. The guy in the bridge and off licence doesn't want to be selling beer to polish workers. So Brexit was in the economics. Brexit was not about economics. It was about immigration mainly and a no prejudice. It wasn't that he had any prejudice against the polish. Lithuanian buyers of beer that the striking thing about Briggs is it's Khanna racism free because if you have been supported into Lithuania, but people from Poland Lithuania, look exactly like people from South Wales. If you couldn't tell them upon so this couldn't really be softened. It is racism. It was just the sense that too many people were coming to South Wales over that of east of England and the usual arguments, you know, services are overstretched, which they will was on in the case of the national health service crucially, this is the thing that I learned in the last couple of years people don't vote about past immigration. They votes about future immigration. And the reason that Brexit happened was not the poles Lithuanians that were ready that was the perception that many many more people are gonna come why? Because the German government had just let one point three million people into Germany, mostly as it happened from was limited to countries in an extraordinary policy, volt fast by angle Merckel, and the killer argument, I heard it more than once in pubs up and down the country was so Neil about the one point three million people that they've just let into Germany if they get German passports. Can they come here? And the only stance to that was. Yes. So that was the essence of Brexit. And I can remember realizing that this was a problem conversation with somebody like this. We should talk about immigration. That's all anybody cares about night. We gonna go the so the campaign was third talking immigration. Just talk about the economy, and the great British public was we don't care about the economic costs of this. That's not the point mate. It was very unlike the Scottish independence referendum, which I've also been involved in. If you tell the Scots, this is gonna cost an awful lot of money. Okay. Forget it. Like that. And so the state that they've covered in Georgia's Boone made was they tried to play the same gamers they'd played in this referendum by saying. And Welsh voters. This is going to cost a lot of money. And English of also said we don't care do it. Sure enough. The problem was that on the one hand. Always right. It is like divorcees berry, costly more cost in you expect it takes longer than you expect. It's not necessarily the solution to all your problems as a friend of mine said after I published that particular article. Yes, new, but you did get divorced and yet Britain is getting divorced, and is just as messy as my divorce was, but when you finally confronted with divorce terms years after you embarks the process, and you think exactly the way people react to the withdrawal agreement when Theresa May proceed back. I mean, I can remember the night. This thing dropped every reading it going. Holy. Expletive. This is terrible. And it was I feel exactly the same way about the of divorce. I'm like reading gang. Oh, no. Backstop, which was the key problem for many people the backstop with respect to like the terms that govern your children under a divorce. You can look at it. No, no. But it's that's it. That's the divorce. There isn't another better divorce available. And that's why I think eventually some version of this gets dumb because that's what divorces like I mean. It's awful. But I think Britain ultimately. Needed to get divorced from the European Union on I came round to the view, the actually the English the Welsh voters were right? Why? Because because the projects of a federal Europe is not something the United Kingdom can be portal. It just isn't. And that's really what Europe's leaders have being bent on since the nineteen eighties. That's what Maastricht was about was the money to you was about I didn't do the bunch of union because they thought it would be cute to have euros. They did it in order to further the cause of the federal Europe. They did it. So the eventual after a crisis every say, okay, we'd better have a federal budget as well. And that's exactly where the French president macro is now you see you need a budget. So the next Rable moves towards a federal Europe carrying on much as Margaret Thatcher came to see Leighton term and office. They would so Britain at some point was going to have to get out because there's no way Britain is going to be a federal state in the in European United states of of Europe. I come to realize that you know, I was probably on the wrong side argument. David Cameron was too because what he should have done when the Europeans came back as they did was February twenty sixteen with terrible terms like we'll make the following concession to you you can have one tiny little bone that size. When they did that which was a question of immigration. He should just said actually that's not good enough. So in backing Brexit that was his fatal mistake not calling the referendum. The fatal mistake was not to say to the Europeans at that moment. Okay. If that's the best you can do all by Brexit. If you've done that he was still be prime minister. As you say, it was more about immigration and future immigration dent economics. But Hannah had a question that goes to the economic issues. Wonderful to be here with unitl at Neil and John. So the last six months of British politics have been dominated by the seemingly futile quest for an exit deal with a you. How important is it? For Britain's economic future that lays with deal or can it go to learn in the global economy. Bugs HANA, I think the no deal scenario. Is not a realistic one. Where you say what in that case would just going to crash out without any agreement. So on the standings by how trade between Britain and Europe will be conducted. I that would be like me some portent divorce. Just tearing it all up and saying, well, I'm just going to walk out. The truth. Is you really do that on the circumstances? Because he could only be would be very disruptive for time. I think the people who argue for that being disingenuous about how disruptive it would be an old people would be affected in a way that they haven't been thus far because that's fine. She normal services being maintained, but hauled no deal brags. It would be a complete disruption of cross-channel traffic. Traffic. It would be. I'm absolutely sure. A self-inflicted disaster. So I I think you gotta have to do the divorce that Yuna Goshi it the better for worse for all its imperfections. This is this is what's available. This is what she negotiated probably that could have been a better to deal with the better prime minister. But this is it. I don't think the futile quest to come back to what I said earlier, I think Britain needs to follow through on this. The proponents of Brexit need to recognize that. There was never going to be a perfect Brexit. I'm very suspicious of people, and they're clearly some people in the European reform group who having come thus far. Would like. Brexit to fail. So that they can say, well, you see Brexit was never done if only and being dumb, we'd be in a place. That's the game that they're going to just claim that Briggs. It would have been wonderful. If only it'd been done, then I want no part of they made this happen. They campaigned for it. They greatly understated the costs. They fairy stories about money for the NHS. And this is the result. And they need to earn. It. And to make it work. I'm very against the referendum. I don't think that would be a toilet good outcome. Imagine imagine if they held another referendum. Feel completely cheated whatever the voted for Brexit will never trust the established political system. Again, they will leave the Tory policy all mass trust again. So try stinky. All to you'd rerun the referendum, and they leave win again, not what would that achieve? So I think we should dismiss the idea that there is some robotic Churchillian no deal that is not nonsense that is just recklessness. And that's recklessness. That will affect the lives of ordinary people. And by the way that to would lose trust. If the conservative party presided over the con of economic upheaval annot do Brexit would 'cause they would fall the confidence of the public for generation seal tone this point that would be Jeremy Coleman, but most left-wing leader the labour party's asthma hide. So it's a matter of political responsibility, not to make Brexit an economic disaster that that seems to me the strongest argument forgetting this withdrawal agreement through with all its imperfections. Is she going to do it? She seven competent that she probably will fail. Again. What will then happen like students who haven't quite got the essay finish that lasts for an extension? And I always felt that two years was too little time. So, you know, getting divorced to four and a quarter years as long as the first World War with very similar results. Wouldn't be surprised. Brexit takes another two years, and then probably drags on too. That with negotiations about the implications. That's what divorces like an I just wish the people who who'd made it sound like it would be a quickie in Vegas had been a bit. More honest about divorce was really gonna be on. Coming to divisiveness and polarization. The Democrats understandably in America accused Trump of sowing division do continent that many ways been divisive, but the solution seems to me to look very much as though they think the answers to move further left themselves. Surely that in itself, only exacerbates the very social polarization. That they say they're trying to fix their a one of the things that that I go, right? Was that once the populism of the rights? What tends to happen is the next thing is the populism of the left. So you can't the way. Yeah. And if he doesn't work at as what is you thought, you think I should have voted for Bernie Sanders. So it was not surprising to me. The Democrats began to shift left thing will happen in Britain. New sooner had we embarked on this. Road to Brexit. Then the labor party's swung laughed and Jeremy Corbyn was leader. And the next thing, you know, he's appearing Guston Brienne is for briefing. Thankfully, not too serious moment. The the most popular politician in Britain. We know seeing the similar process unfolding in the United States in the more glamorous figure of Alexandria cows you Cortes, or Alexandria occasionally. Correct colour AMC, which is easy to say them that low name AUC is a very interesting figure because she has burst onto the scene with a set of radical policy recommendations of which the green new deal is the most impactful, but actually it's it's also her style has been striking. Because what is he is done is to learn from Trump, how you use social media for politics that that that's the key to the new politics, the two kinds of politicians that those want to stand social media and those who lose and she gets it. And the key societal media is not truth or facts, as she herself said, it's all. About being morally, right? Not factually Ryan's. She's mastered. This off that Trump early mustard of being always in the news. Then the way to be always in the news is to say things on true. Then people say all true. And then you say, well, actually, I didn't really mean that because that becomes news to you say not any that you're going to stop American economic growth and. Essentially surrender economic be shipped to China, which is what the green you deal with do. But then you issue a an FAQ sheet that says you're actually going to abolish air travel and cows every hurries heads explode at this point. No, no, no, no, no. We didn't really issue that you try and unissued is every runs around for two days. Trying to find copious of the original FAQ. That's how you were in the news the whole time in some ways AFC's, a very Latin American figure, you know, the idea of being kind of halt and kinda really fall left. That's very Latin American idea is new to Americans because remember up until now being a socialist was Bernie Sanders who is in all kinds of ways interesting, but not halt. So as he is like, wait, socialism and halt. And this is kind of the American media intoxicating. I mean, if you're from Argentina's like. Not again, no, no lipstick, plus socialism. But I think it's going to be interesting where this deeds. Ooh candidates full. The democratic nomination have had to get on board at some level with the AFC express and the speed with which the front running candidates dos. The green new deal, which I prefer to call the green leap forward because it's Maoist implications. You should all call it. The green league forward, by the way because a good joke. And they all said they were in favor of it. Even though if you look at it implies essentially zero growth for the US economy, I think she may turn out to be the greatest gift that don't Trump has ever received. Because as these countenance move leftwards because it kind of it's the site guns. We'd better get with it. Remember all these kind of mainstream candidate baby boomers like the client known young. I can say this because I am a baby boomer technically the baby boomer generation stops in nineteen sixty four annoyingly because that was when I was born I'm technically a baby, boomer. But so is Kamala Harris an with Warren? I think is a senior. So they're all like, oh, yeah. We're totally done with the new deal, which is hilarious. When you think about what that's going to be like when one of them is the candidate an up against Trump debates. I mean, he's just going to destroy. He's. He's good at destroy them. Because socialism. In middle America. Is an obscene word. I mean, you may be able to say socialism on the campus at Boston University where AO see apparently Learntech Nomex. I mean, I like teasing my colleagues at most universities like, she's one of yours, really. So you can say a while socialist. And if he goes, oh that is so woke have another latte. You. Inland and say the word socialism. Just say socialism. So the fact that they're having to endorse all this stuff. I mean, it's just it's just insane. The longest suicide note in history up until this point with the labor party manifestos Eighty-three. They have come up with the longest suicide. It's the green new deal. So yeah. Great carry on luck. Look, good luck with this into twenty. Let's tease out something that's very important to you. Now, we have children on one step. He of view. I've got grandchildren will I decided to have my own grandchildren cuts out the middleman, so. Sixteen month old son. I told my eldest is twenty five euro juicy. No, rush, this Grunfeld thing or ready. Well, but Britain and America us sort of saying this. Attraction the young people who feel that the futures are being blocked ninety two percent of young Australians don't think they'll have the same economic opportunities. Parents had an it's largely because of stagnant ways Rausing asset prices, you know, if a young people trying to buy the first residents in this country, it's a horrendous problem. So that's playing out. He as it is in America, there -tracting superficially, to these sorts of simplistic solutions, which ultimately must work against they've very interesting. We just tell you plainly economic rights, very strong in America at the moment. Addicts exploding not ago, the green new deal would stole the growth. Presumably and push the debts for the roof is if it wasn't ready. The biggest losers would be children, grandchildren. They're the ones who are lift with its if you like a breaking of the contractors Edmond Burke, put between put it I think between. In the living the yet to be born and those who have gone before us. I'm really exercised. And I think you ought to and motivated by this need to ensure that young people actually understand what baby boomers may be doing to them with these which sound good like free educational, you know, solving a climate change problem. But doing it in ways that actually will cripple opportunities later on. What do we do about it those young a right that they will be worse off the parents if those policies are pursued it's kind of guaranteed. I think that the young they're idealistic it looks grim. But how do we get to them many of the solutions that are being put up simply gonna make grim on the the challenge? Here is this. Firstly? We don't really teach young people about socialism. So if you actually knew anything about his socialism, which being tried in many different countries in many, different ways, and is always failed. Then it'd be unlikely to think it would be a good idea visit over confusion around. This would socialism means on it turns out when she quiz people. They re just talking about Sweden and the welfare state, and what they really mean is we'd quite like to have more redistributive progressive taxation, and my response to we're going to have a different system of single payer healthcare Myra supposed to that is well, that's no actually socialism because those policies were devised by Christian Democrats as well as social Democrats after World War Two to prevent socialism from happening save if that's what you were in favor of then don't call it socialism because that's a catchier because socialism is about the state controlling the means of production and. That state controlled designed to prevent free enterprise has been a disastrous failure wherever it's been tried because it is a recipe for corruption and economic failure. And if you don't believe me Venezuela is kind of that way. So please can we try to just have a little bit of conceptual clarity point to young people have not been well educated about fiscal policy. Distributional implications in the great generation. I made the point that if people understood their own self interest in the United States, they would all have been fans of Paul Ryan's roadmap for entitlement reform, which never happened because reform was scrapped as an idea by Donald Trump, but entitlement reform is is crucial. Because the main reason the federal is growing inexorably Jere is that there are a whole bunch of 'em from did liabilities and social security and Medicare and Medicaid that we don't have any way the fording. And the problem gets bigger with every passing year the loses from these fiscal policies are clearly younger voters and the unborn. Larry Kotler cove ironically at Boston University and professor of economics at Boston University. She must have taken none of his courses. That's the only explanation because Larry Cole has argued for years that this this massive generational imbalance and the current policy does it transfer resources from the young and the unborn to baby boomers and seniors in massive generational inequity that as you rightly say, violates books a contract between the generations. They ought to be right wing. They should be campaigning for entitlement reform. They should be campaigning for the kind of policies that would bring the under control. So there is used to be called false consciousness at work here. Ironically, many young voters are. Lewd into siding with the very interest groups that have their interests Lista heart EEG, public sector unions, not public sector unions in most countries are villains of the piece who wants a cre- us law Bility's in the form of pensions for them members to be funded by future generations workers. But young people will be for some reason deep into aligning themselves with those very interests that have their their interest lease to harm. So we've had a double failure of education. I'm an education person. I've been a professor most of my career trying to teach young people, I've totally failed total an abject failure. I failed to communicate to more than must be a handful of people. The socialist doesn't work. Then communism is a total disaster. I mean, it's just the extreme form, and I've failed to communicate to mow a very small number of people that the way that public finance works deep. Plea against the interest of young people. And so hot kind of concluded the teaching doesn't work. Bulma handful of young people hit or not you you convinced by what he's saying. I live in hope. It's not cause you to my classes, if you've come right into this vantage point, so we we we have a problem. And it's not surprising because let's face it. I'm rather unusual figure in the academic world. Most universities, a not teaching people what socialism is really like in most universities in teaching people to think about public financing rational way because most universities are staffed by liberals, progressives, and socialists, and they're on conservatives left pretty much. So I we don't be surprised if the young a wondering around with stars in their eyes about about redistributed policies and canceling student loans and free this free that I mean, that's we educated them to think that way. On the the issue of. Social activism on the part of people who if you like have come to have their doubts about capitalism and businesses not in good standing in this country old say that I don't anybody dispute we've got some magnificient business leaders, but Bon lots they seem to know that they're not liked. So they're out there saying we'll put out cool responsibilities to shareholders to one hand behind us. And we'll Cape Cod about that. And we'll go looking to win some cute offs by backing popular causes this is leading into some pretty difficult areas. An old friend of yours ticky Fullerton hit or not. And I think she's got a very important question about it. My favorite singers. Yes. Neil just on this subject and has Jones says at a time when big business here. Elsewhere has has lost trust. What do you make of this latest pressure on huge investment companies superannuation to then put pressure on big business company boards to change we've seen this? And and in the context of the culture was we've seen this with climate action one hundred plus and Glencore, and it will happen to others. We've seen this with diversity and they've been very successful. And as you will have noticed in the last couple of days, there's some alarm about industry super now with union representations on boards, but much more broadly than unions that the sees of this world. Will move in a world where wealth inequalities could be the next big moral challenge of all time will move to go directly to these big investment companies to push for wage hikes. Thanks ticky. Well it. I should've known that. You'd ask a really difficult question. To you know, Oaksford together hardly anytime go just a few years ago. And it's it's lovely to see see you can hear night. I unconscious that something institutionally peculiar happened in strategy. You've accumulated these these funds the unions representation on them, and they clearly going to be playing political part and leaning heavily on on a stroll in corporations this is somewhat unusual. Typically, if you're a large American company, you'll move terrified of a hedge fund activists than you all terrified of a trade union activists. So the story is somewhat different in the United States, but not wholly different because you'll describing here is a general phenomenon Webuye campus, politics spreads out of the campus and into the marketplace. And it does this in a number of different ways. It does with incorporations because they hire people who've been educated and. Book in Stanford and they start to take that campus politics into the workplace, but what also happened on campuses in the last ten or more years was successful campaigns by the student left to fourth university. In diamonds, the the source of of the wealth of American universities to divest from this move out, which of a particular industry, they decided they didn't like, and I think this is really where this began the audit. You can politicize the investment process. And once you've figured out how to do that for a why didn't I guess it common going with a on so Africa than econo- spread more widely into don't invest in fossil fuels don't invest in the arms industry. Stop don't invest in Israel. Once you've kind the hop. It's of forcing people to make investment decisions on the basis of whatever. The fashionable issue of the day. His then this can become a major problem for corporations corporations in buying lodge run by courageous people when they get to a certain size run by bureaucrats the entre preneurs of long left the scene, and the bureaucrats kinda busy dealing with like all the different things that come up if you weren't even corporation have that corporate PR people, and they are the most risk of people in the world. And when those people sense anything that could be negative headlines. Their first reaction as to capitulate. That I think is a really important factor here. It's not just that. There will be pressure. Yeah. They'll be pressured to says they'll be pressure from activists shelled. What is distinguishing here is the tendency for large corporations to fold when they come under that kind of pressure instead of all Ewing back and challenging these increasingly politicised forms of pressure. So I think that's the way to think about this. I guess the something very distinctive about the trillion institutional structure, but he's not that different from what's going on the other way in which you see corporations dealing with this problem is virtue signaling so virtue, signaling is a con a very standard response where you say, yes. Yeah. We hear what you're saying. But how would you like to look are animal rights program? How would you like to listen to all of philanthropic story? Would you like to all that we are doing for you mentioned diversity? So the kind of standard feature of corporate responses a smokescreen of chew in the hope that nobody will will necessarily scrutinize the specific investment or employment decisions. And I think when it comes to to demands for higher wages that that may well be Watson Suess book, if you still folding wages, then it's goodbye margins. And it's goodbye stock price. I get I'm enough of a believer in the the discipline of financial markets to think that any company that is so ready to fold that just decides to destroy it. So in business model isn't gonna isn't gonna last long. At least the CEO isn't isn't gonna last long. So the correct responses do not fold, but do some vote you singling. They usually by. If we can shift gears from the things that are challenging from within if I can put it that way in a western democracies? Let's come to the one. That's you've been talking about a lot here in Australia. The and we talked about you sort of second Maija threat to to way of life, the relationship between the superpower and the rising superpower. First question in my mind might be. That China's staggering economic Greis plainly has been critically important to its rising status in the world to its intention to as it's so confesses to at least rival you might America the power of the Americans. Can they keep economic growth that so critical to the desire to be powerful in the world, including militarily going? Possibly, but it gets harder with each year at the moment to meet a growth target above six percent. China has had to revert to increase credit creation. This is going to be a reversal of of some importance because last year, the talk was all about de leveraging a ni- tons to keep growth up above six percent. You have to re leverage, and there's been a sudden increase of so-called, social finance. So I think they can keep growth going above six percent. But it gets harder and harder. And it requires ever-larger piles of death. With leads is unclear because China's not got a financial system like a strata or United States. It's it's a clue system with capital controls, the state controls, the banks, and therefore we shouldn't anticipate a two thousand eight stuff and crisis in China. But it's clear that some points. Something's gotta give I inclined to the view that wouldn't be a China crisis and people who have been predicting that for the last ten or twenty years of being disappointed. I think you get a China slowdown becomes a point at which the demographics overwhelm the leverage. China's workforce shrinking the principal source of China's growth was a large scale migration of a growing working population into the city's an into industry that game is over between now and the end of the century, the working population will actually shrink by up to two hundred million people under those conditions. I think China is bound to end up in a more Japanese like situation of much lower growth and meaningful deflation, so that's where we're heading. And I don't think there is a policy in the world that can keep trying to growing at six percent beyond. A few years from that that growth rate is coming down with a con of next Rable gravitational force, which is probably a good thing for a bunch of reasons, including environmental reasons, I mean, I have all the greet new deals in the world in the western world. You can stop growth dead in a stray Leah and in the United States doesn't matter at all for the climate issue. China continues to pollute on the scale that currently does. So one thing that would be kinda good would be China slow done the question that you raise the Jones is is not just economic it's geopolitical even China's growth slows down to low single digits, even if it's growth rate falls down to Japanese levels over the next Hannele or twenty years it still, but he's one measure a large recalling me than the US and. Might well end up being by current Dollah measure a larger economy than the US Cajun was in time today Chinese economists based at the lungs school of economics, but a appeal citizen, and she said it's inevitable that we will be number one of maybe. That's right. What does that mean for the world because there's never be a bigger economy than the United States since the eighteen eighties the Soviet Union? Never got close noted Japan noted west, Germany. I think this is a huge question because if China's not economically number one, but increasingly able to compete with the United States in the realm of military capability in the realm of technology in particular in the realm of autism intelligence, potentially in the room of quantum computing than we all renew old, and that new world is one that I find many people are in denial about because they would like to believe that what I cold all in ten years ago. Chime Erica is still in business. Not in two thousand seven America was real China. Plus America was the key to the world economy was a symbiotic relationship. Chinese the saving the Americans did the consuming the Chinese the exporting the Americans the importing. But the argument of that original chime Erica piece was was a PUM that was era. This wasn't sustainable. I'm sure enough to America wasn't sustainably snow falling apart, and it's falling apart. Just because of the trade war that that President Trump began, but because of a bunch of other reasons, so I think the question that we really confront nine is all we on the threshold of a new Cold War because this rivalry between two now roughly the same size economies, which is also ideological because let's face it, all hopes the Chinese. We're gonna liberalize politically have been. Cashed that seems to me to be the really interesting. The really interesting question for twenty nineteen. And this is a very troubling question for strata an on that question, Marcus has a question Marcus on that issue. Thank you very much guys for coming tonight. So in recent times, stri has a seam that America will defend our interests in the event of national conflict and only spent modestly undefended it now. Appears this American defense capability and even willingness to help us maybe severely reduced and at the same time, China's military might be growing rapidly. Greg Sheridan has said that there's a national defect in our character. And we should be taking defense. Much more seriously should a strike be taking more responsibility protecting our own freedom. Yes. It's a great question. One one assesses China's. Defense spending. Maybe defense is the role word there's a very rapid growth in China's offensive capability. China is. For example, building up a missile capability that would pose a profound threat to US aircraft carrier groups in the event of a conflict euro familiar an IRA need to repeat it with China's construction of military facilities in the South China Sea. But there's a whole bunch of less visible stuff going on as China invests in. In effect is a new generation of military capability the drones swarm is going to be an important parts of any future conflict and China's a a natural edge given its capacity for building drones. So number one. There's no question that China spending a lot on its military and to call it to fence is to stretch the meaning of Tom. Secondly, one characteristic feature of America, I as a policy is the President Trump has not exactly been reassuring to traditional US allies in the alliance system. It was a great source of concern for both general master, his former national security adviser and General Mattis is former Defense Secretary Fave gone. An I think one has to worry about how thumb the resolve. Of the United States would be towards any of its allies in the face of a conflict. So when you put those two things together strata can hardly be complacent about security. Look, let's just do some basic history here. History's most of the history of 'em. Pause. No, actually, the dribbed nation states, and it's mostly the history of conflict not history of peace. You get peaceful periods. No question, we've been in a relatively peaceful time since the end of the Cold War. But to assume that this will continue indefinitely would be to ignore the lessons of history. Another obese lesson of history, which has been true throughout the centuries. Is that if you want peace prepare for war and vice versa? If you want war at like, it will never come allow your defense capability to atrophy for an enormous island that is thinly populated in relative terms compared with Asia that has a Voss store of natural resources for such. An island to be ill defended seems like the most spectacular historical funny. In particular, when it is in relative, the close proximity to a one party state with obviously imperial ambitions. It's quite a long way away from its principal ally. The China's imperial ambitions is obvious the more Chinese leaders in this speech is say China never does conquest the where I'm like seriously, you really gonna make the argument chicken pie was taking chunks in Russia. Just over a century ago. So let's get really. This is not a good situation. It was okay. During the American era when the Chinese like, okay? No problem. We'll just sell you stuff cheaply and underpay all workers, and lend you money cool. We'll buys trillion stuff other problem market price. I must you want. That was all fine. But anybody who thought that that was gonna lost indefinitely was dreaming because the whole point of America was it was a temporary illusory relationship, and that at some point China wouldn't need it anymore and the charges account of getting to the point where they don't need anymore, and the bets that we placed from the Clinton era that they would liberalize or the internet would somehow turn them into democracy. All that's gone. China's actually gone in the duration politically she's paying increased the central control of the policy is reimposing. Trying to offer Oxy is cutting out such free speech is developed in China's public square. I mean, how many more flashing red lights? Do you need? So I think this is kinda getting to the point of urgent and what I see in. Australian politics is a debate that if it was going on in a regional council in Scotland would seem parochial. Parochialism is stunning true. A considerable efforts being made by the intelligence and national security community in this country to wake people up to the potential threat, the Australian faces, but it's it's a straight in any way prepared from a naval point of view for Chinese active aggression. No way. So I think this is a moment of truth actually said yesterday that we were entering a new Cold War. We should stop pretending otherwise that's right on this Cold War will be very different from the last Cold War. It will be Fulton different ways. It will be an alms race for everything from ossification intelligence to Putin computing more than for nuclear weapons or rockets to the moon. And the battlefields will be different. When you consider what China's belt and road initiative has become it is nothing less than Veld politique, the global policy. It's fall extended beyond the original concept that was essentially central Asian Indian Ocean concept become global. And the search for commodities is not a trivial part of what is involved pause. Some level are acquiring commodities at below-market prices, that's kind of an pause. At least not trusting to the market and deliver you the commodities suits better do in the state owned the mines control the supply chain and not be at the mercy of the market all the most of navy China currently is the US navy. So we need to clearly understand the Stoorikhel. Logic of China's expansion to have security China count will be dependent on imported commodities and market prices. When you think about what implies for a Leah? It's really quite scary. Because strode is a prize. Australia's a hugely attractive place from Chinese vantage point and not just as a vacation destination or replace to study, learn English, and I'm stunned by the lack of awareness of the strategic vulnerability of Estrada. When everything should be screaming to you. Prepare. All agree that six streaming sobering. With nineteen. That strategy became a nation in not one. The federal government of that time read what was happening in Europe better. I think than the Europeans did realize trouble was coming and in nineteen seven just six years after we became a nation. Like older. What was what could be described as a t to ninety from the Brits at arrived? He just five years later. By wife, come trust in two thousand nine it was decided and generally agreed as a matter of national urgency. We needed twelve new state of the art submarines. By the time. The first one is delivered. It'll be twenty five years from that decision. At the earliest that is the length of time that a clip st- that elapsed between the beginning of the first World War and the end of the second world. Thank you. I have to say to you. I believe that's a very very timely warning to us all. On this this question of the technological rice. You bring talking about. I there's a bike gang on about. Whether in fact, the Americans might note of lost out already to the Chinese and that rice, but to feed into a specific we're starting to understand the extrordinary control with Chinese communist. Now exercising over the people, including the deployment of very sophisticated technology to monitor the people, this horrendous ideas, it seems to me of the Social Credit system, which is obviously a great user and deployer of technology. Seems chilling. How should we understand it? What are you familiar with what's happening in China, which is the the internet's as in Nabil's, the Chinese governments have access to data about it citizens without parallel in history of Thornton regimes. I'm. With the deployments of surveillance, technology cameras and facial recognition technology. The government is edging towards having real time coverage of its its populations every move. The the amazing thing happen was the China was able to keep the American internet companies out allow its own internet companies to flourish by Alibaba. Tencent. Created an extraordinarily vibrant ecosystem in which Chinese citizens like their American counterparts gave up their data to the network platforms. The difference being that the Chinese government was able to say to the network platforms. Oh, that's interesting will like to see that. And they can see it. And so what has happened is like this extraordinary variation on a theme by George Orwell. If you remember nineteen Eighty-four, which you should all read if you haven't read it recently, the tally screen is on the wall of every apartments and everything that Winston does is seen by the telescreen. But this is a very different kind of telescreen because we carry around with us, and we kind of volunteer for surveillance Social Credit is kind of beyond regular credit. Your credit score is not just going to be. Did you remember to pay the 'electricity Bill? You'll Social Credit score is going to be what you good citizen when it came to fill in the blank, did you in fact, fully live up to the ideals of Xi Jinping fold? So this is kind of beyond nineteen Eighty-four because the level of surveillance is far greater the ability of the citizens to bay outside the range of monitoring will be greatly limited, and we should all be scared about that. Because this not something that necessarily stays in China. The other hand. On the other hand. It's remember two things. Any regime that is so little confidence in its own people that it has to spend more money on domestic surveillance and policing. Donald defense is not strong. Secondly to town materialism, even with twentieth century technology failed. And although he didn't have facial recognition Stalin pretty much had every Soviet citizen under as good surveillance because in the Soviet Union. You didn't really know if you'd be watched that you really didn't wanna take the chance that you'll being washed. So even if you will completely alone in an empty room, you actually like you. It'd be what's I know because I remember going there. So it's not like this is completely new you acted in the Soviet Union. If you will being under permanent surveillance, just don't the chance that you are. Not system failed failed completely failed completely because human beings a note. In fact, designed to be on the twenty four seven surveillance by big brother or anybody else. Zucca book for that matter. We are not supposed to be under that level of state control or corporate control those skis notes. Rhonda grind is a must-reads. So Dostoevsky's notes from underground is great because he says. Somehow intuitively sensing where Madonna she is going that we will be supposed to live on the some time tabling so precise that already remove will be precalculus and unforeseen, and and. It's an amazing thing for somebody's right in the middle of the nineteenth century. But it's like a vision of the future of vision of the future under surveillance with a anticipating every move until syfy says, no, no mine will revolt against this man will insist on his right to do the irrational on his right to defy what became big brother. So I think while it's very chilling. The Chinese state is embarking on this enterprise. It will fail. Because all projects to achieve total central control of very large numbers of human beings fail. And they they fail because that is know how we are designed by Lucien to operate with actually designed operate in relatively free willing smallish networks. Actually, quite close to the Dunbar number here tonight, which at the right number of people, we could all get to know one another and we could quite effectively cooperate together. To solve all of trillions problems. That's kinda I would designed and we sat here in these nice leather armchairs very much, my mom chair. And we've been the kind of guys on the platform that we've you know, we have a very much more informal dialogue that we could actually swap it. I have a couple of you come up here. That's that's how we're gonna defend you to understand. That is surely y Marxist theory is wrong. It wasn't just the practice to the theories wrong. The. That people give loyalty to the state a hater of the policy, the loyalties to the policy on the notion that you will going to have a head all personal right? Yeah. This is no Radi ever gonna work. So I'm outta me confident. The we will and this this this may apply to strata as well as to the United States. We will do the right thing when all the turn of being exhausted and at the same time, I'll reverse Sary's because their fundamental model is flawed will not prevail. This is going to be a very different ten years from the last ten years. The next ten years ago to surprise us in a lot of ways, not least the technological innovations lad, but I think we shouldn't lose sight of the lessons of the twentieth century. It is not likely the highly centralized systems. Veil over relatively decentralized systems that is not the lesson of the twentieth century. So although I was somewhat somber earlier in in wanting us trillion not to be complacent. I I to end on a on a relatively optimistic note, a free society wins freedomworks, it it was the great insights of the enlightenment that free speech free fault. Superior. To central control to unthinking beaches to thority. What we must not do in this brings back to where we began our conversation. John. Well, we mustn't do is kill off the real strengths that distinguish western civilization. Yes there. I said it from its historic enemies, the things that distinguish it special. All that openness that readiness to compete to challenge. One another to challenge, our ideas that ability to say things that are contrarian may even seem heretical that's been the secret sauce. That's the real killer app. And as we remain true to that don't live various. Elements within our own society to shot down free thought and free speech. Then we shall be fine. We can screw it up along the way that's definitely being part of ice dri. But we haven't oatmeal edge over an unfree society. The open society will defeat the closed society as long as the open society doesn't become closed at self. Nail that answer. The second issue though, I was going to rise which was a young person who's heated not said to me before we came in. Can you give us can you? Give us in college -ment. Way who see the dangers wanna make a difference? But it's very hard. You've just answered that question. So you've been very generous with your time you've imparted enormous amount of wisdom on amazed at how many people listening to these conversations on podcasts and one of the things that keeps us guy and in making them and enjoying this conversation, ease the number of young people who come back to since I have fantastic, it is to be able to hear range of views and you'll tonight, you'll range of us, and what you've given us as Bain unbelievably valuable and enormously. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson. The further content. Visit Joan Anderson Dawson, don't you?

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Conversations: Featuring Dr. Andrew Stone, Economist

John Anderson: Conversations

39:18 min | 1 year ago

Conversations: Featuring Dr. Andrew Stone, Economist

"You're listening to conversations John Anderson Featuring Andrew Stub well Andrew. Thank you for joining us for a conversation about economics. I have a great interest in economics is very committed to economic reform in government. I still think it's incredibly important but on not a professional unlike you. You're very highly qualified. Economist tell me a little about yourself and then I'm going to ask you what's the point of. Oh good economic management a little about yourself. I sure Calvin Klein if you signed a very well qualified because actually my actual background is not actually making all mic's on a mission by training originally worked as an economist but twenty five years now So I I have a graduate deployment economic spot but my mind training is having worked for five. Vs for the Komo Treasury and can use for the bank and then I had the great privilege to work for almost five years as the chief economist. Tiny opposition later in Minnesota And so that got me exposure to very wide array of different areas of public policy and economics. And that's I guess picked up. Why training Largely Impractical Sanson as one of the policies. That will actually help to improve. The operation is trying to help you stroll in people. Because we're talking about your Book Restoring Hope Very title tells you that you think economics. He's not just about a sweet set of numbers it's a bat producing as you put it. Hope what is economics Meta to the person in the street matters tremendously because it is so influential about the opportunities that people we'll have the the scope. I have to do all the things that I would like to do to to be all the things that I would like to be So this is a point that you know a theoretical sense. Economists automates are always talking about. They would say technically the distinction between utility and output inside fulfill these differences between how valuable something is versus. The you know specific way in which you measure dollar output so let's we'll understood at theoretical level but I think it's often forgotten actually by By columnists and more generally in the public debate the you know we're not trying to grow the economy because we want to get a good set of jd pay figures because we're proud. If the number has the annual growth has a three in front of it instead of a two the there's a purpose to that which is that after all if if people want to be able to raise a family if they WANNA give their kids the best possible opportunities if they want to have to make the most of themselves than they need to be able to get a good job have an income to be able to pay for that that the educational opportunities to help kids through the things that I wanted to and even then. Can you tell you even more fundamentally with things like jobs. That's actual foreign ally in which you provide. Look People Find Greg purpose and meaning their life in the discipline and so forth that helps them to to have I full and satisfying life through work. So if you have a situation media columnists not functioning well where unemployment is high with people. Find difficult to find jobs. Where if they find a job at the white very low and that means they're constantly struggling just to make ends meet that cramps? Petunias it. It it makes life very difficult there. There are those subscribed. I think I'm probably one of them who thinks that there was a period of really exceptional exceptional economic management in Australia and to be bipartisan. That really extended from the election of the whole government until say two thousand five six seven when the great financial sensual crisis started to rock. Everything coincidentally we took. I think the is audible. Our eyes off the ball here in Australia. But during that period massive economic reform sometimes strongly resisted transformed the Australian economy. I think though with very the good results for Australians and I think Australians appreciate that that was a period of good management. How do you see that period? Oh I think that's broadly Roy. I think the quality of economic policy advice south has always varied from from the The postwar period the men's. It was a pretty good policy period. But then through the seventy s a lot of pot of the sixties and seventies We went through a period. I think And then I think you're correct correct to say that. The economy was in considerable structural difficulties structural. I consider structural problems by by the early eighties. But there was some significant reforms. Brought in by the hawks getting some difficult ones. And so. It's tha to their credit. That fibro Zine it's also to the credit at the time of the opposition. They actually supported a lot of the more difficult reforms that might be different than being able to get them. Enacted this very important point there was support from the opposition. That wasn't just just we will oppose for the sake of posing strategies. Found that very frustrating. When I say I I think they do we? It's important ought to overthrow of idolize. The Pasta was a lot of back and forth a lot of five different issues but it but it did fundamentally matter that there was a general support and that and actually made it easier. I think the Labor Party in some ways to introduce some reforms. It's still require a lot of guts to introduce some of these ones But it might easy because I knew that would have much more difficult for the Liberal Party. Lottie to oppose those. That was tremendously helpful. And then you roll forward to the government which of course you much more intimately connected with. But they were really significant. Reforms particularly in the early part of the government will through that period in terms of tax reform especially But also in particular in terms of Budgetary performance that was tremendously important in the lead up to the financial crisis that for how government which you're on my part for considerable pot Ran Ten budget. Surpluses purpose is out of twelve budgets into that crisis with doubt any Netcom Wolf debt. In fact we had about forty billion dollars in the bank as Komo's level and that was one of an array of factors very hopefully in helping Australia to come through that crisis much better shape than than many other countries. I was on what what was known as the rise again when we were looking for savings to get rid of the deficits and payback would it And sometimes till paypal it. We spent three hours one one day. Debating whether distracting techs prior was getting value from and should continue with a ninety thousand dollar wreck biting program on Norfolk Island. It's an illustration of how finely we went through absolutely everything that Australian taxpayers as with supporting. It was very tough work yet. It had a major impact. But how would you describe ride the Australian economy People in this. I often demonize the idea of capitalism and of profits offorts And yet it seems to me that I wished and democratic capitalism has developed the best levels of freedom and prosperity ready for people. It's not less fear those at it's not as if it's really let it rip. That's not the way we do things Australia. So how would you describe our system. No no I'd say it is. Fundamentally is based on freedom and the opportunity to try different things so you need that freight until the businesses that have ideas can set themselves up up and then they. It's great if you can have new ideas and business can set itself up Mike. A prophet employ people pay them. Good wages that's great outcome for everybody. the idea of saying it's it's not lice. I fear that that Moore gets. I mean it's correct to say that that Moore gets to the point that as again according to the theoretical understand but single. I think too often forget. Get practical level. You have to focus on the particular features of every market to understand. The potential risks. Is there a risk in particular market all monopoly developing or oligopoly. We we say this particularly I think in in sort of outcomes that have developed in the `electricity market where we've had for Roth raisins really disastrous outcomes. Develop I've lost fifteen eighteen years which have been very damaging to businesses and to and to households in terms of escalating electrician. Gas Prices But that's a core example where you have to look at this particular. The structure of the market and the risks that develop. There's nothing in free market. Comex says you don't have regulation in fact at the absolute foundation of a good free-market bicyc- regulations about fundamental accounting standards legal stands and so forth so people can know that they can enter contract that it will be enforced and honored that people who are nothing even besting in something now that can trust the numbers on which which they the information they provide on which the guy who invest those critically laying a foundation so so there's no sense in which it says anything colors that's that's not what capitalism free-market economics is about it rather saying we should try to provide those basic foundations nations. And then as best as possible. halbe leave it to people to figure out their own arrangements into look at what works best. Because that's how you get productivity. That's how you get vacation that's development development so we reject the idea of a centrally planned economy. Where the government decides who will do what jobs what will be produced and almost invariably early in the end? We need to be pragmatic. Some things. Don't work centrally planned economies so far away. I can't think of any examples where it's we've delivered really good outcomes people. They don't they never could deliver good. Economic outcomes isn't even more fundamental reason. I think why the disastrous which is that the phrase of I think power corrupts and absolute power corrupts. Absolutely if you if you provide pal Central Command things you'll get people who like exercising exercising power over other people and trying to tight there every every like every women so forth so it's even more disastrous. I think in some of the sort of incentives gives it creates for people to be tyrants and that's why almost always when you see centrally planned economies. I become associated with tyrannical regimes. You deeply invested sit in economics on invested in history. All good economus understand history. which is what you're reflecting? We need to learn the lessons. What's won't hasn't but a bit more recent history? We talked about that. Twenty five years of good management in Australia had the country well for paid for the global sometimes called the the great financial crisis from about Oh seven on when it emerged that in fact most Western economies had not been well run at all all governments had been racking up too much debt. But there's another side to it it comes to this issue of who regulates. What the laws are I? Don't think you can avoid the conclusion that a great deal of what happened in the aftermath in the human pain and suffering that resulted from the financial crisis had to do with the loss of prudence even integrity but people in the business world. What Lehman Brothers and I was big crash that started the whole bull? Raleigh like what they'd been up to was I think pretty unconscionable the there was a lot of unconscionable behaviour by financial markets it gets very tricky that also because the trouble is again. It's what are the incentives have been built into the system There was a finance chief executive of one of the Big Wall Street banks that might Chuck prints I think it was. I said you know the difficulty is when the music playing. You've got to get up and dance the and what he was trying to send me is trying to get. There was the idea that it's even if sometimes some of those people realize that some of the risks they were taking were outrageous. I just I felt the trouble was that you never knew. When this cycle this bubble as it were was GONNA wind? And if you went join in Titan Ms Risks Doing doing that then you would have you find Sunday you'll shareholders or the other investment. I'm what's going on. Oh let lazy capital their full so I don't say that to excuse here's some of the unconscionable behaviour that went on the pump. The problem here is to try to address systemically. How your move incentives that make it very difficult for people to resist that add Just to talk about unconscionable behaviour I think also what has really shocked pipeline. This is thankfully more true. In other countries particularly Europe and North America. Erica that much much worse affected by the bad financial behavior in also the full out of that is what happened after the financial crisis and the way in which a whole lot of firm that had behaviorally badly it will be held out goes thumb. You will know I think you know often bandied about often very unfairly. Bandied about fries about a UH privatizing the prophets and socializing losses which would be flung farmers. But I think it was awful unfair there but what people are often fought had happened. In the aftermath of the financial the crisis was that the financiers the heads of many of the national market firms in Wall Street and in Europe had managed to privatize the profits and socialize the losses it was the extraordinary things as you know if you're going to have all this title his prophets then you have to suffer the consequences when you'll firm files when those risks don't fruit but it seemed a whole lot of people. The Bio Delta and indeed the by many Central Banks has had the net effect of meeting the a lot of ways the people who who drove drive me that outcome to not suffer the consequences of that though some amazing things happened as I understand it for while the American taxpayers owned the biggest Medica Company in the Will General Motors. Yeah it was resolved but as you say if you want the right to have a goal and succeed you probably also need the right to file while and I think there's some very bad listen the other aspect of it that's really wearing is it. A debt crisis was resolved with vastly more debt and the terrible financial position of many Western countries at the moment means that the next time a shock comes around the central governments and banks will not be able to do very much to insulate people and turn it around. Well exactly this is a worrying thing. In some ways justice wearing the fact that debt in a lot of countries including Australia strikes writers much better placed still than most European countries many European countries than North America and so forth in terms of in terms of public debt. It's important to distinguish been household debt. Stepping public didn't focus on public story is much better off. Nevertheless we have the highest public debt that we've had in at least fifty years because the budget pipe has gone as a proportion of economy so not just in dollar terms but as a proportion Commun- has a hot about twenty percent about twenty percent compared to let's say Great Britain. UGH like Britain I think is about us for example seventy percent. I think Britain's I eighty to ninety percent. There are quite a number of countries while over one hundred percent in Europe. nope there's a lesson in this because as you say we're still relatively well placed When the government that I was pod off was swept up in seven of course there was money in the bank? That's still relatively will place but there's a couple of things we need tonight that I think very concerning one is our debt has been growing very rapidly until the recent much better performance by the current government the second aspect of the issue early that were not so terribly far from being on a trajectory with would match up with those countries that lost control of it with a nasty shock. That's what happens if you get in. It looks all right and then suddenly it's not right. That's exactly what happened. Ethica that that figure twenty percent that's commonwealths share of the economy If you're adding the sites and begin to pros and so forth and the land and wishlist drag the resort sites and a number of comments also announced big plans to ramp up de bit hopefully to be investing in useful assets but nevertheless more manly national figures about thirty percent which is probably comparable one to places like America and Europe and so forth. You still. That's a lot lower and that's comforting on on the other hand I will does. Countries aren't nearly as dependent on foreign barring foreign borrowing as we also exposed in that sense but also that's about the level all that many of those countries were before the financial. The United States was a thirty five percent net. Jd Pay the federal government directly before the crisis and infuse it was up seventy eighty five percent on the scene. So that's the thing things can get out of control quickly and that has all sorts of flow infix. Unfortunately I so unfortunately but I take a long time to flow out. So that means that the causality is difficult for identify but one of the country's handled that and in fact many people kind of think I think. Well maybe date isn't so bad is because central banks have responded by Cutting interest rates cutting policy right short-term interest rates so low. So you GonNa have a situation in which have negative interest rates belong to volunteer in many parts of Europe extremely low writes in America now also Australia and and that will have all sorts of long term consequences fiscal tremendously on the minds. The incentive to save the incentive full thrift and self reliance France is much reduced which is a damaging thing I think in the long run. It's also undermined the incentive for governments themselves to to get back into balance and stop paying down some of those debts at some point. Someone has to repeat on his dad's but the trouble is by having interest rates so low cost upholding. Those debts at the moment is is very low and so politicians you'd have to make a they make a calculation. I have to say. Do I take all the risks of trying to make the difficult decisions to actually reduce peoples benefits or You know or I have to put off tax counsel whatever to to reduce that debt Well it's not actually costing very much at the moment whereas in the past in the nineteen eighty PSI in one thousand nine hundred. You know when you when you nearly does. The government introduced tough budgets to try to remove the deficit. Not only because there was an appreciation that you don't want to fire into debt but also an appreciation that actually the interest costs were very high. And so your head to head to deal with this simple Michael banks unfortunately one of the things. I've done removed that pressure and so now suddenly find unsurprising politicians around the western world noodle around the world a starting to discover that. Don't want to take those difficult decisions. And that's a real worry very bad in the long run because what would doing is engaging in to use the term often used forgive me if I've done it but intergenerational theft this is kinda come against our children they won't have the same opportunities. They'll have text burdens. That I I I'd be really wired to be a young Brit today looking at the future and wonder how going to support all of those debts and the unfunded liabilities looking after an aging population but the comeback to strategy We need to be responsible for future generations the very title. I love your book and it's opening emphasis on better outcomes for people points to your conviction Russian that we need to get it right for a strategy in the future. You've let a lot either last twelve months or twelve years or side looking at government government very closely. What's happened to the policy formulation process that has led to the inability to fix these problems? Will that in such as the wearing thing. That's also part of the Genesis for the book. My sense is that the public policy debate has become a walk worse in Australia. And that's at the political level but also at the national level until the op-ed pages of the use type Scifo the discussions that occurred on television full There were Ryan defectors. I think at the governmental level. There's actually been hollowing out of the public service. I I believe if the quality depth of the advice in the innovativeness of the advice. That's coming up to governments My judgment it's not nearly as good as it used to be Bowen Topa et this. I think the whole debate about public policy has become much less Much with while much less is is is not helping tossed form good solutions to the problems. We face their range of features of that debate. That I think have come to your type. One is the the general acuity. It's become much more common for people just to call for reform. Maybe this is one of the troubles of having period. We've had good good reform outcomes. People just think I just need to call for a full. Let's have micro economic reform wall. Macaroni whatever whatever industrial relations reform. And then you just want somebody else does. That's why that's why you make the call and then you walk away and that doesn't advance the debate at all. So you have that problem. You have a lack of coherence in people's policy thinking thinking about policy issues also has the tendency often these days. I think to focus on one issue and anything we must do this. And what reflect that other people saying his another show here. We must do this policy proposal. He might be going to make things much worse over here and to give a couple couple of examples say both parties professed very concerned about housing affordability Stra and it's fair to the point that housing zinc prices have gone up enormously since since mid twenty twelve even with the correction of saint since mid twenty seventeen now more than fifty percent hiring in Sydney and yet a large part of. What's it's driven at has been a massive increase in demand heavily driven by increased immigration and yet both parties at the same time saying we're terribly concerned about housing affordability site? We need to keep an extraordinarily foss. Nash San Extraordinarily Foster Immigration Program. Another good example is what's what goes on with energy prices at the sign Thomas potties talk about manufacturing jobs and we need to support and restore strategy manufacturing industry and make sure we support those manufacturing jobs both parties remained committed to renewable energies policies that are driving Christie prices that are causing lots of Australian manufacturers to relocate their production facilities overseas the irony of that of course is you get what's called emissions Sion's leakage if you're not careful you make level problem worse while you bring your own emissions down and it does worry me to highlight what you're saying is that there's a lack doc of focus on the raw facts in each of these cases so people can make realistic informed decisions about the policy options before them in other words. There's a lot of rhetoric a lot of yelling. But there's a substantial lack of focus on the real cost opportunities the nature of the policy choices. But the but the proper debate about the costs opportunities and also a proper understanding of exactly what the implications of particular policyholder base as you say with with something like the climate change debate and discussion about new missions. I'd I personally think this is nearly mark as important as lots of people say it is but let's presume that you people think it is important. Then you would think you'd care about what the total global emissions with global problem. That's right supposedly global problem. So you'd think it doesn't help if you take in stride in film that subject to strong environmental regulation and causes production facility sporadic relocated to some west. I in join real somewhere else where the environmental regulations much less strict with the emissions electricity to produce a certain quantity of things elected to be much higher in rational sensible. Will that would provoke a debate that took that into account and also said for example therefore that's the whole basis for example look at emissions by storm production within a country is a bit of a crazy easy approach after all if if to take strategist frustrations continued to consume exactly the same things that involve executives editions but there will produced disease. That hasn't done any good at all. In terms of global emissions so what mad is the emissions of carbon dioxide emissions. That are implicit in the things that we consume you and invest nodding what we produce and yet that has been the the completely opposite approach has undergird the entire approach. Discussions admissions for the possibility of the Kyoto Paris. According Tony Based on production which is just completely wrong headed I I must say to get something off marches. That really really frustrates strikes. Me As it. You hear Took off oh the big dirty amid as we're GONNA hit them on the pass which WHO's the user of the. Aw You get the same thing in farming for farmers waste water. The consumers of the water the people who got w-was yes people don't understand that a glass of orange juice. It has the equivalent of about seven glasses of water in it to make that one hot small glass of water. A man's suit has hundreds of thousands of liters of water from the shape. Crying Wolf through to putting it on your back is not. The Pharma has the end user of that order. It's we as consumers these matters. Assemblies will complex and table. It'll lead on so I think we can agree that a big part of the problem is in fact the way we debate the issues. We can't get good could public policy as I often say out of a bad debate but you hone in on many of US policy failures and come up with. I think some very clear thinking that should be appealing to Australia's across the political. Divide to be fair. You come from a certain perspective we we all do but I think you'll ideas can be adapted examined adapted played with from all sides. Can you wit me through we. Some of you will thinking around what strategy should do now apart from the obvious which is restall the quality of the National Vice. That's essentially what one of the things particularly tried to. This book is to think about what I thought was problems in the debate. And then try to Concretely address them so in particular provide concrete options across a range of areas in a way that would create a coherent policy in the different areas of policy that I've I looked at them. I thought a vital if you full credit sort of overall agenda Pretty Connie range across housing market and immigration areas around strengthening growth strengthening productivity so higher education reform fiddles type relations reform energy prices. We've touched on which a critical nickel and in areas that are critical to making strenuous communists. Vulnerable to shocks that includes in particular budget repair and then issues around the the structure and operation monetary policy and financial system regulation. So I try to cover all of those different areas but I've tried to be different in this book in looking at H.. One one. I'm anxious to say I don't want to be able to be accused of just sighing sighing. Do something here's the problem is do something about it. I would have provided specific suggestion having worked through the issues and say how would you solve those in practice to go again back to something really billiards pragmatics. I try to solve that issue in practice. Here's a specific concrete proposal and also have Leonard across the proposal. I think thank any chance of actually possibly buster in the parliament because again and other the problems debate where you can say. Oh we should do this. And even sometimes people will say we should do Xyz L. specific but the specific about something that has has absolutely no chance whatsoever all becoming reality so that's been what focusing this book. Actions try to say. Let's let's focus. Look look at all these different areas. which are the ones that alive into flight is? I think the K.. Things where policies need to put in place to address core issues that are affecting strand and families and striking workers an intruder propose problem solutions. That will actually be able to pass muster potential politically popular. And when I say that that that requires you to go to your point about being not being built on one side or other of the political divide I'm undoubtedly conservative conservative in Wendy's position in the sense that you know what I mean by that is like you know in cold. Excessive get I think is a bad thing you need. Someone has is to pie if we bought a money. Now it's unfair to require future generations. Street things I think. It's fundamentally important. Try to give me the opportunity to to have a job on a good job. And that's fundamentally much the outcome than putting people on Welfare things like that though actually in some ways it from politically controversial things like that today but I used to be absolutely cool positions unsolved. They woke Labor Party so in that sense I think why gold has been tr. Try to provide practical solutions. Many of which I think will could easily Some of which near I could easily picked up by either side of politics. I just depends how much people prepared to argue for the for the importance of issues. I've always remembered something that the light Paddy McGuinness very gifted journalist and columnist as article right at the time of the debate about the introduction introduction of a juice and Australia and he made the very simple observation he said the debate should not be about whether we need to move to a value added tax system we plainly mainly due the debate should be about who can design the best one and he's underlying me. He was on the law. Nothing really important point there quite a few things and we need to note that that we need to do in this country. Both sides of politics known the heart of hearts. They need to be dumb question. They should be who who best and how to rather than with a two. I think that's true. I put in a word of caution that sometimes the fact that two sought the sides of politics agree on. Something doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good thing I'm like. Classic example of this. Is the MOM. Bipartisan agreement that immigration the right of immigration which which was already at an extremely high level under the Jala government for the whole kidding was I checked the figures in in my book and we had the fastest pace of immigration of any developed country and he always country with the exception of Israel because it had a messy inflexible people from the former Soviet Union. If you look at the past twenty five years of that twenty five year period so we had a very rapid pace and then starting light and how government especially ramped up during the rudd government. We double that price and that's created a whole a lot of ramifications in terms of wages growth because they've been a massive influx of additional into the huge addition to supply of Malaga market. I added hugely to housing prices. That's it's having also to implications and yet but so as politics remained strongly committed to this for reasons that I don't think reflect the national interest but reflect cold political calculations this particular factions of his party of cautioning having said which it is true that there are various there. Lots of things we're there they could perfectly happily. It'd be sensible debate about things and sometimes we have arguments when it's entirely necessary. Have arguments for the sake of having arguments and give a good example from recent times Belabor. The party has a very proud history on pension reform. Actually it was that government would start a story in terms of altering the pension to reflect like the fact that life expectancy has risen saw so dramatically when united patrons introduced cassette at a access at age sixty five for men at a time when I think the average life expectancy agency was about fifty nine. Something it was below sixty and at age Nathan Davis every life expectancy of main roads into the eighties. And that's it's not a sustainable thing you can't go on. And on two point of huge huge proportion people's lives eligible for the pension so the Katie introduced reforms festival to align the CMO pension age with a mile pitch on the rudd government to give it credit critical mini things about the government but the government introduced important reform in two thousand and to raise the pension nineteen sixty five to sixty seven and that was supported by the coalition at the time but then when they Abbott Government in the twenty four hundred fifteen budget might a proposal closer to just continue the same gradual increase that the government had had had had prescribed to graduate. Continue that to to I seventy by the twenty thirties. No it's fine to my seventies too far. What have you could have had a good debate at to your point? Good debate about. What exactly is the right thing to do? Should stop at sixty nine but instead did actually the lead party's position. They just decided to have a big argument about that because it's politically advantageous at the time. And so instead of getting a good reform compromise one We had a silly silly to bite which was completely contrary to the principles that he had pursued and greatly to its credit had pursued food for the previous twenty years so it would be great if some of these issues where there is appreciation of bipartisan appreciation of a problem. You could just have a sensible debate about how best to solve it rolling interning to political football but to have a good debate. You need a lot of information now. Just unpack from. There'll be a lot of interest I would think in what you have to say about immigration because a lot of people are talking about it and what it means my understanding is probably a lot of legitimacy to the view that Kaji DP growth has really been held at quite high levels no recession for long time because of that gross this but what is disguising is that per person. GDP has been static or slipping and other words people in the community. Feel that because Jose wages are not rising that been flat lining while asset prices have been going through the roof. You houses I think when I left school Eh. In the mid seventies the cost of an average Australian house whipped added around four times annual average earnings whereas knots eleven or twelve and more in Sydney and Melbourne. That's a startling rise. I've Lofton Maine's my children have a completely different set of opportunities in terms of a refers to to what I was fortunate enough to enjoy it although it was expensive enough of the Don but these unpacking these conundrums so high immigration. Mike's GDP gross look stronger than it feels individual in the community and and they probably right but they all right in fact the data show that under the howdy element JD. Pay Per person rose almost two and a half percent year which is a very rapid rapid pace normally would extremely good genre outcome but for the corresponding period since then the dozen years since the Howard government each one point nine percent saint. So that's that's well less than half the price and that's what matters to people after all it's doesn't matter to the Australian people to prop up a measured growth theo by jamming people in the analogy. I think obvious imagine if the strategy to annex New Zealand. Tomorrow well we'd end up with a much better rugby team which would be a helpful but no one would hope no one would be so ridiculous to say as to say. Oh that's a great thing because our economy grew by fifteen percent this quarter and yet that would be over fifteen percent whatever the appropriate finger would roughly that no one would be saying. Isn't it fantastic. What a great growth outcome yet in a sense? That's actually what we've been doing will slightly more slowly over the past dozen years even for time before that the over the past we've taken in About to Adelaide's with a population of taken in if we keep the sign of immigration going for another seven years we will effectively in the space of two decades have taken in the the entire New Zealand population in spite of just two decades Chinese population just in new immigrants late aside the new children that are the in board that immigrants and so forth so that point that may or may not be a good thing. You can argue about all the pros and cons in terms of all the cultural social economic other implications. But you should never site to good thing just because measured. GDP has been increased as a result of that and so we should be focusing on what are the actual outcomes of. What are their outcomes in terms of their wages growth which is a a proxy for the living standards which is the GDP capita figures those mentioned before what happened? What are the implications for housing markets? Housing Prices The capacity of people to get into the to to get in to the market to start a family again one of the reasons. It's often advance why this extraordinarily rapid immigration program is to prevent aging of the population because immigrants tend to be on immigration program. Excuse to people typically in their twenties and thirties and younger than the average of the population that that is helpful in the short term but it's not helpful in the long term because they themselves age and unless employees. Like why you keep ratcheting up the size of the immigration program. You grinded up you end up almost no different than the writing a fifth year one hundred year horizon. You need to think carefully through the implications and that's what I try to do in my book and actually understand. All these linkages pitches between the demography the issues the economic implications for struggling families in terms of housing and wages and so forth the guidance for General Economic Growth Control Crash. Landreau think you've just given us a fascinating insight into the depths of your thinking and its clarity And the purpose of all good books books is to promote a debate. Doesn't mean people have to automatically agree with that. I've got to come to grips with what you're saying. We need to end the sloganeering. We need to engage ideas. We we need to get back to the facts. We need to proceed with reason if the West including Australia's to find its way forward I'm certainly recommending the book. I know that John how does written a commendation foot former Treasurer Peter Costello in the nation's longest serving treasure and says neal fix and the world's Dell's most prominent economic historian. So you'll backed by some people who I think have real credibility on the subject of how we manage future best. I hope it sells well. I really do because I think it's accessible. It's well researched and it's understandable. Welcome William Thank you Joel Natori coin. I hope people will read it and I hope they'll they'll be able to find it interesting accessible as you signed and most of old because it has concrete ideas. I hope you'll be able to let advice ideas and have a good debate whether you agree or disagree. Let's let's conspired with us and big thinking a really important. We need to expand on stuff. The business of closing them down. Thanks very much. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson. The further content visit John Anderson Dawson dot a U.

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Conversations: Featuring Douglas Murray, Author and Journalist

John Anderson: Conversations

1:08:46 hr | 1 year ago

Conversations: Featuring Douglas Murray, Author and Journalist

"You're listening to conversations with John Anderson Featuring Douglas Murray. Mary thank you very much for giving us your time. This will be. Yeah I think what the appreciated in Australian particularly where you will not. Now's a writer commentator. Ann Appear on television programs. A writer of great night you've written about in the strange demise of Europe and now you've launched a second book the madness of crowds gender rice and identity which is all SI- flying flying off the shelves and creating a very ideal interest. Look forward to talking to you about that but before I do that can you just tell us a little about yourself and in how you came to your current positioning while I'm I've just turned forty and the author. The five books I I. I was very young Book literally biography came out when I was at university at Oxford. As I've been a writer all my life I write journalism while Right for almost all newspapers in the UK and various broad including the Australian And I it's a rather unusual career path in some ways because I think that I'm in an incredibly fortunate position and I don't underestimate that in any way and the fortunate position I'm in as I see it is that I am allowed to say things that a true even if they are unpopular up ya all politically incorrect or Likely to be howled down by some group or other Some people mind that sort of thing and for some reason probably just having land along the way don't especially and I think it's the job of the a small number of us in any society who are not beholden to some wobbly boss all week week hierarchy to say things that lodged numbers if not majorities of people recognized to be true but cannot say themselves. So that's my self appointed role terrific now before we start unpacked some of the things that you do say can I just say. I think the book is fantastic. I was lying in bed this morning. A early thinking to myself just for the writing. It ought to be a textbook. Doc in schools then this incredible research very detail but thirdly the thing that struck me as takes a lot of guts to do what you've done regardless of images sort of said you're in a position where you can be your own boss. You can say what you believe to be true protects a lot of courage. You know I don't think your person is simply seeking to be controversial. You think truth I and the exploration of issues actually matters yes. Yeah I'm there are people who simply seek controversy. I don't I mean the British English philosopher Roger Screen said of me a little while ago that I'm I'm actually a very Amiable Person Says I've been bullied into being occasionally not amiable by not amiable people. And I. Ah there's some there's some truth in this. I think that all ages engage in forms of self-deception Yup and we are very very good at looking at the past and identifying that what were they thinking why did they do that. And we are inevitably rather bad recognizing our own age is likely to be doing things that are successes will back at with at least equal amazement. Moment what were they thinking so I think one of the self appointed roles of a writer should be identified. The things now that we are doing that are successes will recognize is to be insane and tried to stop doing them. Early sounds terrific cat. Line of reasoning to me one final point on this issue I think it was Robert. Louis students once observed as a kid. I read that he'd said something. Courage is not knowing no fear. It's pushing ahead and I've a-coming the FE- yes the truth is I always say people people who if there's something that wide about saying which they think is true. They should probably say it anyway. Say early get used to saying Adani because otherwise you'll find yourself. In the whole world of how way you have to sustain allies sustain ideas you know not to be true true it's profoundly demoralizing demoralizing for society and it's demoralizing for an individual. I don't think anything I do is is is courageous. I I know a lot of courageous people from all sorts of different walks of life. But I think that it'd be very sad situation if telling the truth breath as you see it was deemed to be any kind of act of courage The water is always slightly warmer than people. Fair you know. People people are very fearful of putting even dipping a toe in to certain issues so again one of my or my beliefs is that writers should try to as I say in the madness of crowds tried to clear some of these minefields of our time. So that it's safe everyone else so so all safer for everybody else to cross as well. I think that's very valuable fits with Jordan Peterson who told an audience in Sydney and when he was asked a question. Shen about big batted bicycle. Media said we'll get it out there after a couple of weeks. Fury blows out and you can move own. But you've gotta you've established a bit of a base hit an but also I've I've just not that much tolerance for the people who think that for instance being being flamed on twitter. Is that big a deal. I mean my parents grew up in post. Post war rationing and then under the shadow of total nuclear annihilation. My grandparents fought in and lived through the war. We've got a very damages in day. So when people boast about being really attacked on social media I think Oh yeah that must be helpful you again. Nine useful perspectives. Well the end of the book the contents page tells you that you're not going to back away guy. And then there's an interlude the Marxist assist foundations women into the impact of Tech Rice into lewd on forgiveness which I found really interesting. And we'll come up to that four trends and the conclusion where to from here. What can we do now? You'll see this as I understand it. In essence were living through modern ear the Ground Land Meta narratives of the possibly lasi discounted. We've moved away from the Judeo Christian basis of Western culture in fact The six to be determined attempt now D. authorize it into Pint Ziebel and terrible and oppressive and cruel And even political structures all the main political philosophies essentially broken down and you see managerial ISM and add hawkenberry and lack of conviction and great cynicism in the community about that. But you're saying we're trying to build a new metaphysics yes on by sees that simply won't sustain it you say put together as a new foundation blocks as a foundation blocks of a new morality in metaphysics They form the Bison for general madness indeed more unstable basis for social harmony. Money could hardly be imagined. The products of the system cannot reproduce the stability of a system that produced them and then this very important Roma when asked her gracing we cannot believe yes. I became fast. I like you had less the new but I've had to do a fair amount of media in my time and one of the things I saw the notice lost fifteen years in particular was that effective in new metaphysics. That is the new a new foundation. Morality appear to be getting installed in our society and it went something like hi this And again one can one can regret this or admire it but I think most people recognize something like that not very long ago. If you wanted to be seen to be an ethical good person. There were certain things that were perhaps expected of you. Broadly speaking they were the inheritance. The Judeo Christian tradition and this included things like Charity forgiveness that too you as as understood in that tradition and a lot more and then at some point the last fifteen years I I say sped up very clearly in the last ten years and then weaponized in last I five we see this another form of of morality not totally dissimilar in some of. It's some it's appearances and that is that in order to it'd be a good person to be seen as a good person society like Australia. Or Britain you would need to stress for instance that you anti-racist as if everybody else in society was profoundly racist and you're one of the few brave souls willing still to baffle racism you would need to present yourself as being entirely entirely on the side of women in any and all circumstances and really talk about it an awful law your man stress your feminist credentials a tendency which is you know from reading the madness of crowds. I'm Tennessee skeptical off you need to talk about. LGBT all time or at least as often as possible and And these well as a few other things you might add in a green pass a couple of other things became what you stress address in order to show that. You're a good person. Now these these in the end is is not derived. were becoming a load bearing walls which I became very worried about an adverse talk about. Because they don't they can't bear the load. My view is is that. LGBT rights equal rights for women equal rights for people whatever however. The racial origin is very desirable and point but it's an end point of liberalism in the good sense as we might understand it. It's a hideous hideous foundation. Why for two reasons in particular the first is that all of these? These Basi's renew morality have intense friction among themselves. So as I point out in the Trans Chapter Trends and women have intense friction As rights claims for reasons I explained Trans and gay have intense friction between them for reasons. I go into the madness of crowds. But there's a second reason as well which is of all of these things that we have been in societies like Australia trying to based on morality on our themselves much more unstable components than we've been willing to admit admit so I say in the gay chapter the outset and I do gay at the outset. Hot It's the only only one of these minority things I can came to have any any crampons on on the wall of the important Everest of of liberal rights Gay is much more stable than we're willing to admit Mitt in our societies. We still don't know very much about it. I think we have to be a bit more humble about some of the issues around it as a result of that but I get on to the women chat. Try say we. This one also is much more unstable than we're willing to admit all women and men exactly equal Ahmen more competent than women in certain areas. Are Women women were competent the men in certain areas or have we just convenience for the time being landed for instance in this strange place. I think we're in where we have to pretend that women Alexander the same as men and also magically better. We're very uncertain about this. Tend to be totally certainly very answered race race absolute mess. which we're we've been trying to think about and deal with as well as we can but there's a whole lot of hell waiting for plus if we keep leaning on this hard and then trans which we know almost nothing about and our society is pretending to be incredibly certain about and and if I can sum up the problem in this in a sentence it is that this new morality trying to construct relies is on US pretending? We know about things that we don't know about Trans and simultaneously demands that we pretend not to know about things that we all new till yesterday relations between the sexes. It's very interesting to me that you clearly spill out the thing that you've just said in the book On guys that there are almost differences within each each grouping under the hitting so guys lesbians and so forth and enormous differences. Even frictions between in them. Yes and in many ways. It's I would imagine quite deeply resented on enjoying the guy managed by Australia. Anybody who's watching the debate closely could see there. It was quite a range of views in the body quite a ranch and in fact there were quite a few who said we've never believed in marriage. Why would we want to do it? Yeah there was something. Yeah because you didn't say that in the meteor didn't suit the narrative you've got other people at Saint often. Using in inverted commas the groupings dive put together and insist stock agent. Right hang together to pursue a man of agendas. There will often often to pursue specific political objective. Yeah I mean. I wrote a piece in the spectator. You can't support gay marriage before as popular to be in support important gay marriage and explain what I regard as being the conservative case for it which was an article which David Cameron used as a basis for his first main speech on the issue I defended the right but I also am worried by having white for longtime by the extraordinary intolerance of elements of the gay community which I say so called Khazar. There is no such thing I mean so this is one of the interesting aspects of this that there must be a lot of gay people. Don't want to be defined by. This sexual sexualizing the things they citizens they mockby boilermakers. I might be Sydney city executives or whatever you but but suddenly there's an insistence that define themselves. Yeah and this is this is coming in very recently. And it's come in each of the ones I described and it's a basis for madness when people say the gay community who you talking about. It's like women think this a really fifty percent of the species all agree on something. A blacks save this really Now this is let me put it another way. If somebody said I just love the working Kloss us who yeah. I just love the middle class who I love the APP. Who you talking about? And it's the same. Why why would we be? Why would we be falling for this interpretation of society as depending solely or primarily on interest interest groups based on gender slash sex sexual orientation race and a bit more? Why would we be doing that? Why would we be taking the individualism? Vigil Ism out of individuals and lumping them in these demonstra ably incoherent bodies. That don't even exist. I don't even exist the LGBTQ community. Take me to your leader. Come on especially in a way you know in public gophers. The thing that struck me about this is that it it actually ends up dividing is hopelessly so we're forever focusing on the on the differences on the things that divide vodka citizens rather than the things that you not us and that we have in common. What if that's the point? Well let's just that's the point. So that's the second chapter is really on on the mocks on the Marxist thing now now this pulling to get off of disparate groups who I have grievances that can be stoked and sort of if you like used as battering rams for political objectives often without them probably even realizing that innocence. They've been used the preps the modern version of Lennon's useful idiots. Yeah yeah this is this is. There's a pattern in all of this As I say not chapter you can you can see the intellectual underpinnings and they come from this idea. If IT'S A it's a Marxist idea but it's Just transferred to the modern era. Where instead of talking about society in cost structures you talk about in minority interest groups structures? And you love people like this this. Wha what is what is the primary of his Among other things it is a different interpretation of society which is therefore intended ended to segregate and pull apart societies as you and I might understand them so that people's primary affiliation is not that I'm an Australian alien or I'm British but I'm a member of the LGBT community greatest Sydney area for instance you can predict with one hundred percent accuracy. The people who encourage this the people who will will grab the latest claim by an interest group and run with it and it is always people always people who in in the past had another way of trying to attack societies had a radical Marxists view of the world for instance. We know this with the green issue where yeah and again like like the rights issues. I write about in this book. They succeed because they're not onto nothing. You know the Green Green Movement is onto something with the environment with a planet but it has this hideous red interior which keeps exposing itself as desiring not not a better relationship between ourselves and our environment but for instance the end of capitalism. Yeah and it's the same with this I expose in each of the chapters that the people who make it repeatedly and desperately plane that they believe for instance that being a woman is should be merely the first step in a wider mission to bring down capitalist title is now. I don't think most women were on board with that. Most we will be rather surprised to be utilized in this fashion but that is very clearly and and explicitly I quote the the various scholars and writers who've been pushing us for years this explicitly the aim. And it's why as I say you you always predict exactly who's going to latch onto the latest claim when when for instance the big bid man with male Genitalia Genitalia. Wins the women's weightlifting competition. You can predict with one hundred percent accuracy. Who is going to say yeah? What's the problem with that? And the people who are going to say I'm not sure clients. The big weightlifter should be winning the women's category you can predict it and the people people who say. Why have you got a problem with that? Bigot always the same people who believed in the past that our society's needed to be pulled apart. Pardon another fashion and now they'd like to do it in this fashion. So this is what might be called. I think accurately cultural Marxism people grind here. We go again but in reality it is the case. Isn't that from the twenty S on Frankfort School. When the thirties you had Graham Scans title saying there's a problem in the either thrive capitalism the working classes and not rising out they always a letdown always a letdown? I haven't done the job for FORCI. We need to find different. Y Two J design objectives and has to attack the cultural underpinnings of Western society in particular I would have thought things like capitalism itself dementia but also Christianity and family. uh-huh famine. The great loser out of a lot of this frankly awkward side these culture wars our children. Yeah you know we've deconstructed the family and so in many ways and this further attacks environment which our kids grow up. Yeah I'm never quite understood. How the Cultural Marxists managed to capture academia in the West and particularly the same in the English speaking countries? Oh that's yes that's easy. I mean the the first of all academics can be. I think Fannie characterized as north among the bravest people in the world That once they get tenure they become very comfortable the position they all. This isn't always the case. But they ought to consider extent as long as they take the right boxes and have the right views an unusual oh beast in nature and they have no predator They are able to have a very comfortable a position in which they can should express perhaps uncomfortable discoveries but the comfort of recent decades has become the comfort mm foot of exposing and following basically coach remarks. His view of the world I the the literature of the evidence of this is so overwhelming now particularly from America it has to be said and there are. There are reasons within that why that's the case. I mean look the amount amount of money that is not the the people. Now run up to get an education in America. it's happening in the UK as well but if you if you massively increased the number the people who who who go to university and think they should go to university you can't keep up a system that rewards people for having gone to these universities and you create create a Ponzi scheme which is what Academia has great extent become a social science departments grow and grow where the human and resources departments grow and grow common the multiple now. But it's like three or four times. More money is spent American Academy on the purely bureaucratic Eurocratic elements of it than even twenty years ago. Which means that young people in countries like America running up massive debt in in a Ponzi scheme that cannot reward them because there aren't roles at the end of it all these people with degrees that give him? I think by the way a massive amount of resentment coming in the next few years this from people who realize they've had I think this is one of the dangers frankly for wishing society review but but to go back to the origins of why academics in addition I mean. Let me put it another time. This is one that will make me normally unpopular with some remaining friends in academia. But it's also the case that degrade extent. This isn't where the bright people have gone in recent years Tell me outside of specific sciences and competences tell me a situation where In the last twenty years we would say this is a really big problem. Let's go to the universities and ask them for the answer. When when in recent decades we've had massive issues have we been saying we must I Oscar? Professors what they think no. We haven't for all sorts of reasons but one of them is that not very good at giving us says anymore and and and by the way the place you'd go last finance that would be the gender studies department of a West Coast University. Let's go and see what they can tell us about. The sex is. Oh there. Aren't sexes as just one hundred genders including two spirit people we just invented yesterday. Oh great they're useful. This is a useful department. Thank goodness kids are getting into massive debt. Being lied to by these people. They've they've lost. They've lost in large part. The competency had and I think there's all sorts of reasons for that as I say among other things massive expansion attention of that sector beyond where it should have gone a one of the reasons that matters as at such a high proportion of young people in the West go through university. Yeah and then. They filter out into teaching our children into the media and do all sorts of influential prices. Now the boardrooms they'd be crying centers of Great Whiteness Business. Yes in our country yes. Of course the use of the knees small C conservatives you would find on university were generally in the economics departments they would also always have Marxist economics departments but you. You often find that was where some conservatives were because he economics still needed conservative thought. That's not the case so much anymore. And certainly not the case in the humanities and the evidence in the the what studies have been done show us the overwhelming helming preponderance of Marxists self identifying SOC this and others off in recent years and the only place you can really find open radical Marxists after the cold. War Closes is in the university system. Although now we also have it in our political system so that's a development development I have to say I'm still amazed at how willingly how Ridley how lazily people give up that much heralded sort of AH shoot of evidence based reasoning problem solving that surely laws at the heart of Western progress. Oh my goodness well but I accept your dog. You won't be one way of also think about this. I think is the pursuit of truth is now gonNA massive blockade in his way and the blockade is me I so south so you and I know this we. We are so many examples of it some of which I give him the book but don't go into that very difficult area. Why why should I go into this very difficult area because it offends me now? The obvious thing that the adults in the room do at that point his so so do we become hostage to these people any people. Anyone who says don't go though it offends me and are we step back and as I like the other issues I mentioned earlier. There's a good reason for that. There's an advantage. We're generally speaking our site. Is We recognize. Being nice to people is better than not being nice to people are being polite not offending people is a good idea. It's not the view throughout human. History is not globally at the moment. But but in in societies like straightaway. Broadly speaking we okay. I'm sorry I offended you. Try to avoid that but if this means that there are whole areas we don't look into let me give you an example quickly issue of child rearing child production parenthood. There are whole set of very painful issues with him. Now almost unending lending number of painful issues and a lot of truths that need to be said a lot of facts anita be explored many things though we you know about. We've we've been doing it flying off as a species However if somebody says if if one person says in a room that offends me we are likely to step back? We're trading one of the most painful important things in the person's life So we're hostage to that and it means that you can very easily as a society wants. You say we're not going to talk about. Oh explored difficult and painful things. It's very pretty easy. Society as a result fullback and rely on lies all untruths. And you nasty the consequences of this. I'm now a forty. I see the consequences of my contemporaries who for instance were told at the outset of their careers. You can have everything. Yeah that was an easy thing to tell people. It was a nice thing to tell. People is a very encouraging thing to tell people and it was also a little bit untrue. This is really important stuff talking to one of my neighbors at home in rural a strategy a highly intelligent man very thoughtful men very pragmatic man and he said to me John. You are too much about about the stuff. People have got a lot of common sense. These three kids. They're being educated in systems now with madness taken. My Interpretation Shen of your society. Correct me if I'm wrong is audacious thing to explain from Australian offers. You can explain Britain to me but I was in in Australia. Lost some some for us and I was very started multiple city toll. I was very started that I thought that that the I I have relied and I'm sure he's having around for lying in recent years on the assumption that your average Australian retains the common sense that is perhaps absent from the average American these days not to mention patsy average breath. There was some Coal all sci-fi down the road the why we would normally put it and while that may be true for many people. I was very struck in city after city Australia and New Zealand. That what I describe in the madness of crowds was with at is now absolute heart in your country. That and I was trying. I've been trying to work because I read a little bit about Australia. In the previous strange death of Europe as well as you know about the immigration question and specifically on the historical auricle guilt issues and it seems to me among other things that I love. You too. Correct me on this but it seems to me among other things that Australia has had a massive shift in it. Sense of itself is all lifetime and as a result very vulnerable to this sort it has I agree with him and another man who agree with both Frank Peretti now he would not identify on the political spectrum. Where you and I'm not but he too would say yeah? Yeah Australians still display a lot of common sense etc etc but I said to him Do you think our universities avoided the worst of this and he looked at quick shopping he I said now I think you've fallen laser into the worst. Yes of the British and American yes but to come to the Australian salk. Because it's something I want to draw you. Think the preps are most pronounced sports fan. Certainly the one that I think I respect most personally long gone across now. Donald Bradman right unbelievable believable Australian cricketer what was known for his character and it was saying to him is what we thought method in character. He was extraordinarily gracious in victory on humble indicate although I round he was extraordinary. Gracious in defeat and humbling victory. We admired him enormous. He was a legend for that. At what point in Western culture did pride which is another word for a self centeredness eclipse humility as a premium value. Something to celebrate V lack. What it comes down onto the same axle shift as everything else? Which is broadly speaking? Do you think you'll society was a force for good. All was it evil evil from the start. Since nineteen forty-five every Western society has has gone through this shift at some point usually for similar reasons and again the basis of it it has some good things accounting for historic Lara's for instance by the way the oddity of this is for instance all the countries the made to feel worse. The moment all the places with the least reason to feel worst. I mean we don't see massive self interrogation Gatien in China. There's a reason there's a reason. And there's a reason by the way which we should be proud of our countries which is perhaps perhaps the free free companies. One of our freedoms is to beat up on ourselves. Yeah agree short. But we have the capacity to self examine And work how long were better position. Right is a large part of the thesis of Your Book. But we've done it will but having almost arrived at the railway station. Suddenly we've decided with no progress at all. We've gone backwards with absolutely terrible in the Trans. Just run off down the platform US right. The generation comes along with with believing in many cases. I mean having been light into the societies like Australia and bits are the most racist. Society's most sexist society is on all homophobic or at Sarasota compared head to which societies precisely in the world so the staggering lack of geographical and historical context in our country. I mean this is another. This is another fading of the university system. If the university system had merit it would it will be inculcating in young people among other things a sense of damn gratitude for status doctors. Just for starters some sense of perspective on the world. I've been very lucky. My career traveled extremely widely goes across every continent in the world. And one of the things I know everywhere I go is how lucky I've been how lucky I've been component of society. I've been born into at the time. I was born here for abused even privileged and and center hard thing to measure as you sign the book but Yes but But as I say eat all of our societies at some point got shifted onto this idea that actually we went very good we weren't very virtuous that we done so much wrong and this is where we become susceptible enormously susceptible to anybody eh claims to have a different way of doing things and who claims to have the answer for instance to everything. Let me just tell you this out a little. The loss loss of historical knowledge. A background seems to maybe be terrible. I don't think you can work at where you're at where you want to go. If you can't establish where you've come from by upbraiding if you like it seems to me not one of the Gripe listens I would've thought of history is it to ny to deny people freedom I'm of conscience. Belief religion is to Ny to deny them the must fundamental freedoms of all and again Frankfurt. He made this point. He said the first first freedom in a way in the West was freedom of conscience. We Buni one another strike because it was barbaric it was not Christian and it was also a stupid uh-huh today's minority might not be tomorrow's majority. You talk about that a bit that it appears at some people who have been pushing shing for rights having achieved them than turn the Jack but that they once we're on the receiving end around an attack. Although in fact you Mike There's something in here that really jumped out at me. You said almost immediately the after gay marriage became legal in Germany acceptance of it was made a condition condition of citizenship in the state of Biden. Wittenberg a condition of citizenship. And I'll ask you stop it. Does that leave the left. Those figures and Free Country they run to believers who don't believe in marriage at all they suddenly have actually gone up. And we've I believe in marriage and it's new but only for gays. That is everything that are on history store so to say we ought to land at history segments of it has given us the freedoms that we have. But if you want to understand where we've gone wrong we can learn from the things we've gone wrong as well. It went up a pay even lend the things we go wrong or from the things that we got raw things we got right. Well one of the reasons why the the new metaphysics new religion I describe in his book is identifiable is because the people who follow it behave with all zealotry that religious fanatics fanatics of behaved within the past. It's not enough that they believe something you have to believe it too. I wrote in The spectator recently. Recently about the It's a minor thing but the rest running. America called CHICK-FIL-A CHICK-FIL-A Sound the people who've Family is Christian family business. Pretty Big China. It's a big change third largest chain restaurant. America opened a a the first time in the UK in October and announced shortly. Afterwards it is closing Because a protest by local self-appointed gay activists because Chick-fil-a in America Christian family found it gave donations about ten ten years ago to a family challenge family oriented charities which included opposition to gay marriage and so and so forth. So here's the thing with that. Like with the Equinox Gym controversies season the summer in the US is. It's not enough that that these people choose not to eat the chicken nuggets at this place. You mustn't either. And they mustn't serve chicken nuggets. And they must close well even if the family who run chick fillet of most opposed hosed to gay marriage ever I still think if some people want to eat their chicken nuggets they should have the damn right to do so but that that instinct is not out there in the social justice is time. It's not just that they want the thing. They don't want you to do the thing. I ought to have the right to do the thing. Because only by total decimation of their enemies can they win. That isn't liberalism now. In any interpretation of time any interpretation on and how does it fit with the insistence of guys in America for example but also we say this in Australia that you know the the bike issue the vikings waiting TYCO and I know you cannot possibly exercise your conscience If a gay couple want a wedding cake you you must provide it. Has It fate with the right on the side to close a business down because it has a different perspective talked about going back to the courage issue. Maybe these people are all just incredibly cowardly lazy. Maybe that's what's going on. It's quite easy to say. I refuse to eat my chicken nuggets at that place in reading. That's quite easy. I'm GonNa have spent all my life ducking eating chicken nuggets and reading. I can keep doing if I want. But if you think that's the main issue in that rights issue it means among other things you can avoid the hard ones well. Here's a harder one. There are still dozens of countries in the world. where it's illegal to be gay? They're still around a dozen countries where you can be executed for Ping game. If you're gay rights activists might not be a place to start might in that it might not be one closer to the boat as it happens I Serbis meant say anything at all Praising him but as it happens Donald Trump has said he wants to make this a priority. It should be he is his administration is looking at trying to stop the countries which still make being gay illegal from doing so they can tie it to aid and all sorts of the things that strikes me as being a very good laudatory gay rights move. Let's let's try to make sure that there's nowhere in the world you get hanged engdahl stone for being gay. It's also for many individuals a bit of a hard one. Why well it means you have to make a value judgment means you have to to say? Actually I think the way we do things in society is better than the way they do in that society well imperialism deep cultural imperialism. Who you to say that? They shouldn't shove the wall on the gays and again much of the lazy cowardly social justice movements. Pretend they're incredibly brave. Don't want to get into that run an awfully long way very fast power seems to be at the heart of a lot of this new if I can put it this way anger the desire to operate everything. Why is it that we don't see the pursuit of path for the ugliness cities I mean acton was surely right we should be warier? Pat It does corrupt absolutely patent does tend towards absolute corruption. We don't I seem to value things. I love hominy community turning the other cheek forgiveness they seem to be under ruthless attack. As belonging to an era we despise which enjoyed a Christian conception consensus in terms of the way we viewed the world. Neither one of the striking things about going to society's radically different from your own and why hi it's worth doing is because it can wipe you of some of your presumptions. About what the natural state of mankind is you know. A lot of people in countries like Australia. who think that? For instance loving your neighbor is the natural default default condition of people have an awful shock coming to them not just in their own countries. Of course nobody can entirely up to that. Very strenuous come on but in all sorts of countries and societies around the world where people act acting behaved differently with a state of nature's ways is is different from off societies put a premium or did put a premium. I'm in the past as you mentioned earlier. CRICKETER example on magnanimity in victory for instance humility and defeat or graciousness in in defeat. Ma Things these are not the natural defaults. These are learned behaviors learned because there was a deep undertow beneath the told. Hold you that these things were worthwhile. Charity for instance is not the state of nature of mankind which had let alone charitable people. You haven't even met very unlikely to meat. He's learned. Behavior taught behaviors from a very specific tradition. That isn't to say the other traditions don't have elements with themselves. They do they have versions of it. But our societies today have become fixated in the post Christian era. have become mm fixated on power as the primary dynamic and understanding mechanisms human society. My view is as I say. Pot this book. I think this is a really deeply perverted way to look at society where we interpret interest groups and others forever scurrying to achieve power and we entirely ignore what for most of US remain. The more potent drive is not lives. If you say to somebody what drives you wouldn't have the average person Melbourne said. What drives is you? If they said POW you'd step away slowly more likely they would say something along the lines lines of love my family friends. They might have a wider group of people. They express that towards community town Civic Pepsi Nation. They wouldn't say power now the reason why. Hi We're talking about. This is among other things because it's a more embarrassing. A key thing to talk about the power to purely look a power dynamics of men men powerful over the women are white people powerful over people of Color and so on and so on Ad Infinitum. Is it slightly easier to do than talk about the flip flip side of that which is love forgiveness charity and more and I think conservatives have been bad about talking about some of this as other people have Conservatives in recent decades have to a great extent for the point of that philosophy is to talk about the marketplace and economics and leave the rest. That's been a disaster in a disaster. One thing that border time I I'm. I'm reviewing a book at the moment in which he an economist is bringing About the collapse of Lehman. And when you actually. His thesis is essentially that the abandonment of the classic virtues prudence integrity courage sound inside fourth. was what led to that fruitfulness. In other words the abandonment of morality has disastrous economic outcomes and conservatives have have bond lodgements status. I think those who might have been classic liberals are now smaller Libertarians Bond. Lots have missed it as well. Short termism and by right into the hands ends of those who disliked capitalism in the first place. Yes I mean. Well there's been I mean because the capitalism is produced a better assists than any other system. We know of course doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws within it. One of the floors always has been Short termism is white y family the businesses can offer be so successful because as you know the If you were to raid the whole thing strip it presents a false version of itself that you're going to suffer for it. There's a phenomenon. I've often noticed of family. Businesses this is for instance ending up in the hands of outsiders who squeeze maximize profits because they want to run off quite shortly afterwards and having having made their pile conservative approach to this small c conservative prices. My other things but say but this is A. This is an immoral thing to do you in itself. Because it's not your right to simply squeeze the value that's been accumulated by others. Run Away with it and then allow it to collapse laps. That's not a decent thing to do there by the way there are versions of this. I'm sure there are an Australian have been public versions of people who are now being shamed that kind of behavior and is very advocates. I think is a positive step People like Philip Green who asset stripped two major high street chain him based. Yeah but it's a terrible thing that's happening and it's there's a sense in which it starts the one back freedom so we had a commission of inquiry into Royal Commission of inquiry into the banks and the financial sector in Australia. Reveal some terrible behavior to be fair OUGHTA PEOPLE BEHIND VERY decently and I get tired of the same brush but nonetheless as a massive problem and the reaction is people. Say Oh thank heavens. We had the Royal Commission of inquiry. Now we can have seventy eight new sets. It's of the pieces of legislation more surveillance more monitoring Greta fines and then we find that credit starts to become a problem because everybody becomes cautious. I in the problem in instances of the bank is went asking themselves what they ought to do. Rather what can we get away with. There is a As an additional problem we've put upon our shoulders. which is there are a German term for this but there there are categories of problem which we don't dress because the only people who've been trying to address some odd people with the west possible onces capitalism? I think falls into this basket The people who have been critiquing it. The most for many years have made a lot of other people not want to critique it because those people who've been critiquing it all along have an answer. And it's Marxism. Yes yes so. We avoid that we avoid having the discussion. Because we simply don't want the same thing with the inequality quality discussion I think which is there is there are so many discussions have inequality in the and there's been quite a lot of literature about them about that issue issue over the decades. It's sort of been run already. It's nothing new that debate that we're going through but it's very striking to me that again. The political rights tended to avoid inequality debate. Why because the people who've been thinking about it have an answer? It's Marxism sure. We want to be absolutely sure if we have that conversation now. They're not going to smuggle Marxism when we're not looking if I can get back to this issue the way in which we've actually completely turned on. Its head now. The beliefs and values that underpinned western society. I mean we really have. I mean the Christian model all of relationship with the numbers established by the idea of cross dying on across nuts friends. Even but freeze enemies turn the other cheek Do unto others. You'd you'd have them do unto yourself And then the I spy is sort of the the sort of a minimalist version of that at least do no harm out of mill. But it's all gone. We've actually reversal together. In the in in in the interest of the big May of Sufism off radical autonomy. That says I will do with my life and my body the and my money and my time and my relationships what I choose. We've actually inverted the the world view if you like that. That drove our freedoms and I think the me as has someone of Christian belief the greatest question except that people have absolutely the right to choose or not choose faith but the greatest checked ah question of all the greatest challenge for the secularist. On what basis will we establish a whiff Qabail respect Ferrara's because no society of a democratic tradition can possibly survive. I I believe it's impossible to survive if you can't find a basis a rational basis that's enough the change people's behavior so that we break free. I mean you might point. We're reverting to type progressive side with moving in to see to a better future but in reality. Is You Cypher. Looking at other societies as you travel the world will losing if you like what we had on reverting rather than progressing well. What's the single hardest Kamombe within Christianity? Game you can get almost everything of Christianity from uh-huh earlier or other sources. You can get almost everything. Christianity of Jesus teachings from the ancient Greeks A lot of the wisdom is very what is the thing that is totally revolutionary. About what Jesus says it's the commandment to love your enemies if that is a an demonstrated in Christian belief But I'm actually dying for. He was dying for. This is this is. This is a world historical change of a command. The demands Monday world historical change. My own view of this is that it is possible in individuals on occasions with exceptional exceptional grace and that it that it is almost impossible for most people most of the time but the the commandment to to do that God at the very least rains in the worst of our nature knowing how we should behave. Ideally means that we can to step back from the west of ourselves which we know in tears. This is an easy to replicate without its foundational claim claim which is a foundational claim. The claim made within Christianity. It's what I quite strange death of Europe German Jurists jurist Balkan Ford. Who Pose this question? The ninety sixties Cana- society can't -ociety the short version of his of of his Challenges kind of society continue in the same manner if the thing that gave the source to the society is itself now off off and as I say strange death of Europe. Possibly for a time when you're running on the the fumes still yeah that invocation Candidate sustain forever. No because if you don't if you don't I believe in the driving force of it then once the people who did believe it have died out. You're you're still going on a memory of it and then that dies out so this is a very big challenge. And it's a challenge which I think the intersection lists social justice warriors and so on have knowing thing me or otherwise recognized which is why they're trying to dig in new metaphysics fast the metaphysics of LGBT women race CETERA. And I am absolutely convinced that this book is right. That cannot sustain a free functioning workable society. Just isn't it's hopelessly inadequate to the task. Hopefully hopelessly inadequate divisive and doesn't provide very much meaning So so here's here's here's the big big challenge and I wish I could get more people to think about this. I given the chapter on forgiveness in the madness of crowds. You know. Am I'm a challenge. which is we live in the most unforgiving era that history could ever have known because we live in an era in which action in the world has had an errand puts sit in the S if as I quote lesser has merely fifties action? The world was always our biggest problem as human beings because we could never do our actions. And we always knew that it's it's one of the main catastrophes as being human. Yes we didn't know how words will reverberate. We didn't our actions were right and we can never undo them. Never what's the only mechanism is on. Aaron said what's the only mechanism we came up with. Tried to deal with this terrible catastrophe strategy. It's forgiveness or something like forgiveness mechanism to try to undo the undoable thing. Yeah now nobody societies today spend any time thinking about forgiveness at the moment in history when acting in the world has never been more precarious risk. Where a young person can tweet story that lie that Yup where they modern burning Bernie state and it can happen dance? A I love this photo face by giving samples terrible pitiful examples of and that's why I resent the the looking the looking to millennials and after his being snowflakes or you said they've got a they've got a very good reason to be worried and to be tiptoeing like never before because say the wrong thing whichever ones only agreed is the wrong thing twenty four hours ago. And you're toast you're over. You may not ever get a job. You're online forever for the you're stuck with a worst joke. Your worst photograph only slipped. We thank goodness grew up in an era before this where we could make mistakes and they weren't with us forever so there's two aspects of that really has figured this forgetting and Rabbi Jonathan Sacks observed that with the abandonment of the main source of the concept off forgiveness and endocrine systems that we practice it to the best of our ability and that we looked to it for relief when we know. We've done the wrong thing in society Judeo Christian Jones with its loss. It's washing up to the I said to him. Well what happens when that's gone. He said when you have to hope that people will forget about the social social media makes that impossible so you have neither forgiveness nor the capacity to forget pretty devastating for young devastating situation. I'm very sympathized. Young people growing up. They need a lot of help and advice and can love. I think to try to get through this and the adults have disproportionate duty to help them. I mean they always did but they especially now so the adults should be careful About joining joining in the retributive era. Here's the other thing the bigger point if I may which is we don't know exactly what we're doing. Maybe we never did. But it's worth trying to think of US your onset nuance of a lot of people. Is We knew what we were doing till not long ago. So why don't we as we're going through this unbelievable believable fog them. Why don't we remorse ourselves? Remorse also to origins Jin's in religion. Faith that's that's one onset by the way it's so striking that answer so he's not given by the churches themselves. I mean the believable exceptions with some honorable exceptions but by and large the the the bishops seventy nine became comedian. Web Auspicious. Welby was once again this week. Discussing Brexit In a society where the Archbishop's talk about Brexit and awful lot not very much about the resurrection. The church that one of the last places places you'd go for Christianity that's terrible terrible letdown by the churches decided in large part to jump on the bandwagon of the day. Jump on green to jump on social justice issues and so in the beliefs masculine Christianity if you might captive to the rining culture ultra yes and and one of the reasons why people flee but the churches at any rate should and those who follow the teachings of the church should I think much more distinctly say. There's a reason why we hold onto this and there's a reason why we think it'll be good for you as well now. All sorts of reasons I've written about my my last book vision being a believer myself a lot probably first office. I described as a believer in belief. And suddenly you're beneficiary of elements of it. I think that those who are in a position I am in on this also have a lot of work if not a lot more worked do and particularly for and with young people on this because we all have the same questions we always had as a species. We tried to work out. What the Hell it is doing have we? We don't really believe we're just a collection of atoms do we. I don't think we do. I think there's something very instinctive in us. I one shorthand is safe. This is if you if you said to me well as a consumer Douglas and I said well sure I mean I'm a AH bitings Cosima but but there's a bit more to this a bit more. I said Justice says more to myself in that as you do as we all do. And that's why we think we're a collection of atoms right. We don't we don't live if we're merely the thing we have. We are in a very deep sense in which ourselves know something about ourselves. We find it extremely hard to communicate but we know it and this instinct is to the generation growing up now in the West. This instinct stink is only being spoken to by people saying okay this death meaning but you can find it you can find it an endless retributive wards For Justice Issues on smaller and smaller minority points so you will find meaning in the world by insisting that the big bid guy with a penis can win the women's weightlifting competition all the people that say otherwise bigoted gopher at guys now at the end of this process. There is a presumption that there was the presentation that somehow we get to utopia within our lifetimes. uh-huh you type. You is grasp and it looks like total equality for everyone all the time and even if we got there and I I would submit that whenever we never could seems can be better but that never gonna get that even if we did. What do we do? Then we're still stuck with the same questions Christians about ourselves for ourselves and I have some aunts that some suggestions for that which largely rely on suggests into people that we should live the lives? We recognized be good lives until yesterday and lives of meaning can be found in the twenty first century. Not with great ease with significant. Challenge was awful lot of work a lot of commitment but they can be achieved and deep meaning can still be found but the first thing people need to do is to realize that it cannot be found in the things that are being offered and so in away. What I've tried to do as a matter of crowds is to say again to take apart this senior being offered to show you why it isn't going to work? I'm doing that because I want to. Then say do something better with your. Life's what is better almost anything often this but get off this. Get off this foster. Waste a minute more of your life on this on working out where you are in a hierarchy on working out when you have a right to speak or think or how privileged you have privilege you are compared to the person beside you or the person to your left. You're right in front of you and where you're to speak and way allowed to think and don't spend a minute longer doing this game this unwinnable horrible game because we live in an era of history where we could do so much. We have accessed information that we never dreamt ripped off from your grind up. I can I can get to the source of any book at a clicker press of a button. We can save so much time we can get access to so much. If you're smart person anywhere in the world in the developing world or the developed than you have access to youtube and Google you can do. Miracles ancestors collectively could never have don so why spend time during the retribution privilege game. Why not work out what we should be doing and start doing it now that I don't think you could finish on a more important nights? I I think the one thing I would say as someone who admires your work enormously and think that you provided an invaluable service with this book you've given us a mirror which we look into it shows just how ugly studies and Shuli any thinking person can only respond by saying need to rethink is to encourage you to use that very powerful mind. You've been blessed with as a gift tool of us to Cape teasing using out those answers for me personally. Who has in my lifetime comfortable profound belief? The resurrection was real I have to say that. I think we need something. Extraordinarily powerful to change assholes. In other words we can be renewed by the transforming of Amazon's and that is no small thing. But uh thank you so much for the which you tell us about ourselves and challenges side deeply. It's it's admirable and I wish you will very best with it. It's a treasure. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson. The further content visit John Anderson Dot net dot a U.

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Conversations: Featuring Helen Pluckrose, editor-in-chief and academic researcher

John Anderson: Conversations

43:46 min | 2 years ago

Conversations: Featuring Helen Pluckrose, editor-in-chief and academic researcher

"You're listening to conversations John Anderson, featuring Helen plug grows. Helen, thank you for taking time, you'll busy schedule in Australia to join us for conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about the sort of academic work you do? And who you see as your audience and what you'll seeking to achieve that listed the last few years, but particularly intensely for the last couple of years, I've been looking at the development of what is probably best called social Justice scholarship. So that, that includes all kinds of theories, which them from Postmodernism, postcolonial theory quiz theory in sectional feminism, and I've been looking at some problems that I see with that, with a, a sort of a pistol, allergy knowledge, claims, which aren't supported by evidence and ethics, which aren't consistent. So my colleagues and I have just finished a year and a half project of trying to get inside the system and show the problems with it. I think my audience is, is the is the average person really the moment because we trying to get through to academics that there is a problem going on. We're having difficulty with that. And I don't think the average person really that they see some symptoms of the problem, they might call it political correctness identity politics. But I don't think they always understand where it's coming from and how it works. So I'm trying to break all that down. Thanks you. I think it's a good point. Your Mark, we should never underestimate the until Johnson thoughtfulness all people in the community. I learnt that in a longtime in public life, but they must look ahead at the moment and think good grief, the world's going mad. We've gone the of right up the sign, we've got to go back to a golden ear that probably didn't really ever exist. We got the Luna lift saying, we want to take you to a future that will never be achievable. Some sort of Nevada, we've got if you like a rise. In religious extremists with people saying, I can save myself by blowing out his off, and then we've got an atheist movement that saying if we just get rid of all religion, everything will be alright, none of those are true, the person the straight knows it. But can we begin? I'm not sure the old lift versus right? Distinction is very useful anymore. We, would you put yourself and how do you see the issues of how we describe ourselves on the political spectrum? I think we're looking at two different things hit because in political culture, when we're talking about ethics, and how the world works left and right doesn't work so well as binary anymore because the. The argument then between the authoritarians and the anti authoritarians and the people who want freedom of speech, and the people who want to censor speech. And then we have all kinds of arguments, going back and forth about identity and this, and, and the value of science and reason an evidence versus experiential knowledge and that, so we've got this big messing culture. But I think that the left and right, those still make sense on a political level, because we have to vote for particular policies. So when it comes to policies, we're back to a very sort of practical thing, how it affects the how it affects people living their lives. And while the coaches certainly feeds into that we still need to be having conversations between leftist economics and rightist economics and social policies. So I consider myself a left liberal, and by that I may in I am economically left. I would like to Tex. People quite lost in them. Pay for, for good welfare services. I thought nationalized healthcare and this kind of strong safety net, but I am a liberal, which not lefties all, and I know in Australia that's often more associated with the riot. But some liberal, this is more associated with the left in the UK in US. I am a liberal in the sense that I. I won't to see more more freedom, more individuality more more focus on the equal opportunities for the people. And the we'll sort of fairness that very broad label of, of liberal. That's an interesting question. The, the, the issue of. Equality. I take it that you ADR distinction between equality of opportunity and of outcome, yet we're never going to achieve equality of outcome. But I think we do have to be careful to make us a certain as possible that the reason that isn't an equality of outcome is, is not because there are disadvantages getting there, and they can come at all sort of different stages of life within education outright, discrimination, or social socialized ideas about who should be doing what so I don't disagree with the identity left is that disadvantages can exist as an economic lefty. I'm I'm generally more concerned about close disadvantages than identity disadvantages, but I accept both exist that I think when we get to the point of, of outcomes, we do need to accept it people people differ, generally, they're not going to make the same decisions and they're not going to have the same abilities. Urine, you're to American colleagues James Lindsay and paid up ago Zain with behind the grievance study scandal, which is achieved quite some attention around the world, and he earned you've been talking about it a great deal. You obviously thought that something in today's academia, needed exposing, and you've succeeded in highlighting, that there are some real issues the what? What do you mean by grievance? Studies has should we understand grieving studies grievance. Studies is the kind of scholarship that begins with the assumption that they will be a power imbalance, and then seeks to find it in very specific ways. So we have been accused of being against all scholarship into an social Justice issues or identity issues, which, which isn't the case, what we're looking at is a very specific kind of theory. It's rooted in the post modern idea that knowledge is a constructive. Power. It sees society as working within systems of power, which put white people above non white people men above women. And then it looks for evidence of this, and it will read it, very interpretive Lee into anything. So we've criticized this quite straightforwardly. But many well-meaning academics have told us that I think we're overstating the problem. There's just a few mad papers out there, generally the premise is good. The motivations of sound. So we out project essentially gathered together. Says many terrible papers as we could find and cited the moral absolutely sincerely in order to make really horrendously on ethical, and on evidence dog Yamin, Sal sales to just try and show, how easy it is to get this kind of scholarship except it is known each, something like twenty hoax pipers and a significant number of them would take him by academic journalists and published often with some quite notary remarks about the excellence of your scholarship. Yes, we, we retired six of them as unworkable, but we had seven accepted and seven more were in the process when we had to call a hoax. So we were getting better and better at it. We could have carried on indefinitely, getting out a couple of papers of months that said increasingly mad things and drawing on itself, but we obviously weren't going to do that, because that would be on ethical. Don't want that. Understood as knowledge out, in out, Tanaka -demia. But it's, it's worryingly easy to just millions yourself with these ideas, and right, horrible things or some of it's just absurd. We're talking into ago about that. And let's, let's be honest, about them clever thinking people in it by this idea that they're super smart, people, and lots of dumb people, which are here lot of now, we've just had an election in Australia. There are many, particularly in the commentary today, who applied the now disdainful of ordinary Australians, who voted in wise, they disapproved of so lets dispose of that. But when I hear some of the sort of stuff, they're going to say, what on earth is talking about one of your papers touted insights, and I'm quoting from the newspaper here into mile ripe culture, based on the inspection of ten thousand dog dentals. I mean, really what was what did it claim to show and? Published it that was Jim Deplace and coach that say in a feminist, geography journal. So we're not worried about geography. It's not one of the high up, geography generals. But when you get a kind of identity study attached to any other discipline, like feminist geography, feminists social work, then, that is, when you see some real sort of madness appear. So yet our dock pulp paper as we call it. It argued that by examined by looking at dogs in a dog park and instance, of unwanted humping among them. And how humans react to that. We could confidently state that both dog parks and nightclubs were right condoning spaces, and that we should train men like dogs, and we submitted a first draft of, of this, and it was received, positively one of the review is suggested it could be benefitted by the addition of black, feminist criminology. So we did that and it really is an absolutely absurd. But there's also very dark element there because the reason it went down well was because we were claiming a kind of implicit bias. If you've seen the reference to implicit bias is, we can't see racism and sexism so easily anymore because it's been criminalized, and it's also frowned upon but it's still a police to be there. Some a lot of scholarship looks into ways to Dickie tout. Make it visible. So by making these claims about how people responded to their dogs, we were feeding into that. And by making men, the villains of the piece we were also fluttering the political bias is so. And I understand one of your colleagues is now facing a really nice de backlash designed I would think, to intimidate, and to SME rather than to acknowledge that he's exposed something, you have exposed something that needed to be exposed yet, but we almost worried about Peter. There's constance. Worries for him at Portland state university, there's only so much we can talk about it because he's, he's not allowed to tell people a lot of what's going on with the internals of. Reviews and things, but he has yet he's been found guilty of not getting an ethical clearance to, to test journals, which is ridiculous. But that's that's that's doesn't seem like it's going to be a huge thing. We he's been cleared of data fabrication, because we did reveal it ourselves and had the papers withdrawn data February, what was what was behind him being accused of falsifying data. Well, I hope you went less of us, but we didn't actually examined ten thousand Doug genitals. What can you? What we've tried, we've tried to point out to people that, even if you're not responsible in stupid for publishing this rubbish they've done the wrong thing because you didn't examine ten thousand dog genitals yet, initially, Jim, this is one of the criticism, that a few of our papers had data and it wasn't real that the we did need to test whether highly implausible data, would raise any concerns with them. I mean, how is it possible to have ten thousand different dogs in one town and to examine their genitals while asking the owners about their sexuality? It's, it's really should have been questioned. And even if we had been able to show that we had done that it wouldn't justify the claim that, that dog poke some nightclubs, a rape condoning spaces so this focus on the data whether or not, it was real is, is really a red herring to get away from the fact that we shouldn't have drawn the conclusions from it. Then we that we did. Anyway. There are a couple of doozy's that you've referred to here in Australia. One was another recycled material from hit those mind camp with feminists rebadging and third declared that bodybuilding was fat. Exclusion, really. Yes, fat studies is one of the smaller and newer fields that he's is really quite worrying because it. It kind of it draws on, on queer theory. And it goes back to co in his idea that science decides what is true and what is healthy, and that it's done to oppress people. So fat studies explicitly rejects the claim that obesity is unhealthy, and it puts pressure on research organizations, and medical authorities not to advise people to lose weight. And so we wrote this paper with the help of what with the permission of a former bodybuilder and academic, Richard Baldwin who claimed to be donated us his name. And we argued that the only reason people admire bodybuilders who have built that what he was muscle and not a base people who built their body with eating huge amounts of food is because there's a prejudice against fat people and so- bodybuilding could benefit from including the noncompetitive display a fat. Bodies alongside muscular ones, and there was that paper just has an offload of silliness, and it's an I take that one quite personally, because I've been trying to engage with that studies, as I don't precisely how thin privilege myself, and it's very difficult to talk about the health problems and a for people who are trying to lose way to trying to get healthy. This kind of activism going on in the background preventing them getting the right advice, and the right medical treatment is, I think it's going to be much more of the problem than is currently recognized. It brings to mind. I think georgia'll will not he wouldn't describe yourself as a conservative. He writes, ninety ninety four of course, and I started things. And he, he had a quip once the fix that somebody's so stupid that eilly unacademic would believe them. A man in the street would say through them in an instant this rise is very real questions about the object Tivoli and professionalism. If you like all big slabs of academia, can we just drill for moment? Not all of the articles were published, and they're applying the many academic journals, and the and they editors who, who, who did not publish. How do we know who we can trust? And who we can't who's reliable who does a high quality job? How does the man in the street? No. When he picks journal op that this is a journal, it would have done a proper due-diligence, who want a bit of a word and won't be publishing rubbish. This is the problem. The average non-academic person is not qualified to judge. What is coming out to of identity studies in the white same way I couldn't evaluates a physics paper? So we do need people with expertise in those fields, and we need them to be doing their job properly. So a lot of our work was aimed at people in the humanities who are reasonable who value evidence, who value consistency to try to get them not to out of some kind of loyalty to colleagues or a feeling that any kind of what, which looks at social Justice issues must be good. They turn a blind eye to the really terrible scholarship, and we want them to stop doing that. We want them to criticize it, and we want them to be able to criticize it without being accused of being white supremacist misogynists o or whatever. Else. So we that that whole field that whole process of social Justice scholarship, and how it is evaluated really needs to be. Overturned, it needs to be made rigorous so that people can trust it again, because the worst thing that could happen from this is that people will no longer trust anything that's coming out about social injustice, they are going to be inclined to dismiss genuine cases of racism, sexism, homophobia, unless we can make the information that's coming out. More reliable one thing that worries me enormously as somebody who was involved in public on is the breakdown of trust, and our institutions, and the academic work in a strategy can rely on in this field. I knows straight initial university work on trust. In federal parliament. A distrust is a very, very high level. Trust is that are very, very low level by historical standards. Quite frightening stuff. You could say the sign of a number of other institutions immense damage is done to the standing of many institutions by the Royal commission of inquiry into child sexual abuse we've had one into banks, we've got one into is K. In this country universities are on a knife edge. I don't think they realize it yet, but they're in grave danger of losing the confidence. I think of the people who support them this stranding taxpayers. We see it on a whole number of fronts, but internationally where do you think academia, stands now, in terms of Bank, trusted, and being trustworthy, then this is something that, that worries us potatoes is what we put up at a pace a principal Defense University before we revealed anything because our greatest fear is that the undermining of, of confidence in certain kinds of identity. Studies is going to feed into populist and anti intellectual demands to, to dissolve universities. They are go there. There is so much danger that, that people will generally lose confidence, not only in some bizarre theoretical scholarship, but isn't scholarship itself. So that, that is something that I think we need to address people have criticized us saying that our project feeds in to the undermining of confidence in the universities. But I don't think that argument works, because if there is genuinely a problem, we cannot deal with it by pretending. It doesn't exist in hoping the critics don't notice either. They've noticed we need to be seen to try and fix it. If nothing else comes out of this conversation, it's that when there's a problem, it needs to be put out into the into the sunlight so that people know there's a problem that copy escaped, you can't get around it anymore. So I think that's a really important observation if we accept the Postmodernism as a prevailing orthodoxy now and most campuses across the western world, it might be useful to start thinking about what it is. And you actually have said, nothing this is called verdant, the defining quality of Postmodernism is a move away from the aim for. Objective truth. Both morally and factually. Can you elaborate on that so that Lyman might have a better understanding of what Postmodernism really is? I consent any breakdown. They send conception of society, which I think he's is important for people to get a grip on. But I think when we say Postmodernism has control of campuses, I think we're looking at an involved form of it, which has some power of the campus culture and some departments, I still insist that the majority of scholarship that is coming out of universities sound, the majority of students, and faculty on not post modern thinkers. But that's not to say it isn't a dominant a dominant orthodoxy at the moment when it comes to, to social Justice and identity issues that yet at the post modernism has what we've called a, a knowledge principal, and a political principle. So the. Critical principle is that society is formed, a structures of power and privilege, a marginalization. So societies set up to protect the interests of heterosexual, white western rich men and everybody on the other side of those as well as disabled and fat people on the bottom of this hierarchy of power, and this works through discourses. It's the way we talk about things we constantly keep each other in our places by talking in certain ways about things that sweet, say things which indicate we think, men should take the lead and women should take a backseat, and the doctor should be white, and your Gardner, should be non whites. And so it's these kind of discuses, which they see as permeating society and keeping everybody in their place, so objective knowledge. And in this sense, it comes from this conception of society as. Is constructing knowledge through these power discourses so Phooko called it power knowledge. So we think what seems so obvious and untrue to us is actually just a construct of these systems of power. It'd be useful for us. I think. If we had some understanding of how Postmodernism has evolved. If I could preface my remarks giving away my own bosses little JK Chesterton, once observed, that when men stop believing in God, they stopped believing in anything it does seem to me that we were promised that this new secularize would lead to a greater objectivity more rational thinking, more reason less subjective thinking on yet. We seem to be list, committed to objectively than either yet. I don't think that's the post mutton and culture can be considered secular in any meaningful way. It, it has an awful lot at the same qualities as religion. And I we've, we've talked a lot about wanting a kind of secularism, which includes a social Justice ideas in that you can hold them, you can practice them. You can live your life, according to them. You can't institutionalize them. So in that sense, I think we all thinking very much. Modernism as not a religion itself. But as equivalent to one in the sense of fulfilling social and psychological needs. I don't think as many conservative intellectuals have claimed recently that the problem of Postmodernism is a direct result of the decline of religion that doesn't seem to fit geographic. Not I wouldn't have said that either it's just that there's been if you like a mock decline in objectively in thinking that we, we were told would not happen, if we broke away from the change of religion yet, what we are seeing of with Postmodernism as a break away from religion certainly to a certain extent in the sense of Christianity. It can be very positive towards minority religions and spiritual practices. But we're also seeing more importantly, a break away from liberalism, from Madonna from that. That understanding of society in which I'll have to be reasoned. Evidence has to be provided ethics have to be consistent. So the post modernists are cool such because they are in opposition to Madonna tea and by that they do mean this rise of secularism this rise of liberalism, and this scientific evidence based way of looking at things they see this as a construct of the west which is really a product straight white men that it disadvantages unfairly other forms of knowledge, which seems to belong to people of minority racial, or cultural identification. It disadvantages women transpeople the disabled because it's all been constructed in the service of dominant groups in society. So the postmodern the original post modernists would, I would call the first wave of them. They appeared in the late nineteen sixties, and they are best understood. Good as a manifestation of complete despair at the breakdown of Marxism, Marxism had proved itself not to work. There is a great disillusionment amongst leftist academics. And Postmodernism really compared to be defined as can we trust anything anymore? And so they then they talking about methodologies that those large overarching, explanations for things, which keep us sort of unified them focused, so they could slice Christianity. They criticize Marxism. They criticized science and then we're left with a big mess. Really, because we can't count on anything even language is unreliable. So the original post modernists are characterized by despair, but then in the late nineteen eighties, we saw a second wave and that's recovered, some hope and some attempt to rebuild things. So we have people like Mary Pouvien feminism Kimberly crunch. Title in critical race theory, and they appeared all at once and they started saying will Postmodernism has some good ideas with cultural, constructivism and systems of power, but we have to success that some objective truth exists, if we can't say that there is a group of people called women and they experienced certain disadvantages because they are women. We can't do anything. So what became true in the second wave that we call applied Postmodernism is that it was accepted, as objectively true that these systems of power and privilege, exist, and everything else is culturally constructed, so we have to start with the assumption that the imbalance is going to exist within any interaction that happens. And then we have to look at how the prejudice has been constructed in language, and in attitudes around it, so that that was the next wave. And that's what we see most in theories, like Chris Therien post colonial theory, critical race theory. And then in the last sort of five to ten years, we've seen a new wave altogether, which has brought all of these theories theory and critical race. There in feminism old into a big mess that I just tend to call social Justice scholarship, and it has it's, it's making a really strong objective truth claim the language now is really certain in the first post modernists it was difficult to follow what they were saying because it was so obscure, it was so doubtful. They couldn't be sure of anything now we have things like, oh, what people are racist. Black people cannot be racist, and these tones of absolute certainty, which is the third stage. And I'm in a way it's a hopeful thing because we can understand them. Now we know what they're saying, and we can argue with it. The return of absolutism is a very interesting development because in Marl. Relativity doesn't allow for it says there's no such thing as truth there on now. Absolutes. Yeah. Except for the absolute that there are no absolutes. Exactly. You're saying, we'll move beyond that. And we're now seeing the emergence of some episodes, anybody who days to argue with social Justice warriors, will very quickly. Discover I think today that I do actually believe in absolute s-. Yes. So to backtrack from that if Postmodernism doesn't think truth, though, is really attainable. Even if they moving bit on that, that evidence has to be discounted in favor of looking fool, the social drivers if you like an construct of the world that we live in how can that be anything other than corrosive for the idea of a university, dedicated to the pursuit of understanding and truth? Well, you're not gonna get an argument family. That it can be considered any other way. I think that this, this some good stuff coming out of this. But the premises are so very bad. So often when I'm reading some papers and books around these kind of theories, I see some really shop thinkers, who are thinking rigorously, but they're starting from very bad premises. So I am actually quite a fan of, of Jose Medina in Christie Dotson, who are pissed them logistics, and they do some really solid work, but they started from the premise that knowledge is tied to identity. There is a way that men think there's a way that women think black people white people, and the, the building from that. And so that the theories kind of work because this is simply isn't the case that all men think, say moral women do this, this doesn't work, but I am hopeful if we could change the tide. There are some good scholars in there who could apply. Their ideas, productively so that I think is the, the silver lining in there. They're all still smart people. They all still ethically motivated. But I think they've gone wrong, but on top of that there's an awful lot of scholars who are really just taking advantage of the ability to write total. Theoretical fluff without substance. And I have no sympathy for them. It raises the question for me, given the experience, you had with your hugs pipers as to whether a post modernist is actually capable of establishing clearly with a something's, evidenced by still can. They do it. Will they the what they would do with this is they, they would they can understand what they call the correspondence model of reality? Whether what we're saying actually corresponds with three. But they, they not sympathetic to this. They would call this the western philosophical tradition, and say that it is dominated unfairly, so, an example that is given. I think it's Barbara Applebaum book, when she's looking at different kinds of knowledge, she says that there was a survivor of Auschwitz who reported seeing all four of the chimneys burn. And when her testimony was taken in court photos were shown the only one of the chimneys had been. So her testimony was discounted, because she hadn't remembered accurately with the correspondence model of truth, and what the theories pointed out was the that women's memory may not have been factually accurate. But what she was recounting was an experience. So maybe her experience of what had happened had produced a memory which wasn't factually accurate, but did speak to experience and we are interest. In experience, at least as much as we're interested in facts. And I think to instill some degree. That is true, if we were to talk to this poor woman, we would want to know how she coped how she felt is she recovering. And we wouldn't be interested in chimneys, particularly. But when we're talking about scholarship. We cannot have truth claims which have social power that a used for social engineering, which are based on the experiences of certain groups of people who believe in these theories, because it isn't the case as they would imply that we listen to say all all black people, and then we obtain knowledge from their experiences, and go ahead with it because you're going to have middle-class black people up across back, people working close back people conservatives liberals that this just isn't a black knowledge. And so when this kind of theorist says that they are, are listening to black people, and they using this kind of knowledge, they are really only talking about the ones who already agree with them. If we could move to the practicalities then. What? Does this confusion because I don't think you can put it any other way in academia main for society's. I the, the thing that universities is that knowledge isn't meant to remain there. The whole purpose of them is that they produce it, and they disseminate, it throughout the population, and that, that is what's happening people who have been university, who studied these identity theories go onto become teaches about children, heads very industries, and these ideas get a pitch waited. They get simplified and, and they trickle down. And so we get activists who have a very sort of simplistic idea of these power structures that they're arguing full, but may never have read Fuca for, for example. So I think we need to tackle the ideas, where they all at the roots in the universities, we need to make them, we need to show the problem with them, we need to make them fall out of faith, though. We need to make it a bit embarrassing to not even. Try to have evidence so make sense. And that's that's how we used to feel about these kind of arguments, and I think we need to reinstall institute that, and when it's coming to young people who is starting university now, I frequently get letters from them saying that they want to set up some of their own groups. They want to push back at some of this moral orthodontics. And I'm I'm hoping to start to stop visiting some more student groups, giving them, some support, and getting them going because I don't think generations that is going to put up with this. I think we're going to see a pushback from the younger people. This idea this post, modern idea is really quite, quite old now it still tries to pretend that it is new and radical. But it's the regional theorists. Have mostly died and it I think it seen it's day. So if we can support the youngest people those starting university now to challenge it. That's what my book is hopefully going to do, it's going to break it down for people and get them to. Back. I think that's what we need today anecdotally on here. I am saying you've got to look at the objective, Videon evidence, but I met, an extremely bright, young man. I need a couple of weeks ago at one of the best universities. And he just observed to me studying the humanities allies will citing Domic's. He said he said to me. I honestly believe that eighty percent of the students I interact with believe that they've been fit a lot of ideology, they see through it. They don't believe it, but they will play to it to get through because I know they have to. That's pretty chilling. I'm not surprised by this Maqassad. I can't no numbers, but I would be very surprised if more than a minority of students were genuinely radical, cultural construct this, with this ideological understanding of power language. I don't think they are, but it is a worry that they're, they're having to speak through this system. And it's you know, in that sense Kobe was was not far from being rights. We pallet language does have power. We all at risk of accepting this conception of the world. If we don't keep pushing back at it now, one of the points that you've made while you've been here is that, of course, the people who go through university systems then become not. Johny leaders of industry, but also at teachers so this filters for very quickly into what happens in the formation of the minds of our young people ask students in classrooms. I think that's the concerned Australian parents, I think it is. I don't want people to despair of this. I think some of the most of us now are bit spoilt through from having lived through many decades without an extreme ideologies, you know that it was only. It was only sort of seventy years ago. The we saw the rise of fascist and communist ideologies, which have been which have been overcome. They were in universities, people were arguing this and we did overcome it. I think we can overcome Postmodernism. I don't want to encourage people to catastrophes. I think it's the end of the world, we need to end universities or or ban any kind of speech. That's not what we need to do. We need to win this battle of ideas. And I think there is enough of this to do it. The story that you just told about the young men, what we need to try and do is get the eighty percent who don't agree with this to see the importance of together saying that they don't and having the good arguments against it, and I'll take them well, and pushing Beckett, that's why I think hearing from people argue with what you said today said very valuable it starts to quit people who are interested by definition will be supposedly. Leaders the innovators the people who want to pick it up and stop the stop them the, the whole back. I think that we've, we've forgotten how to defend the values of maternity, because we have taken it for granted for so long. The, the general culture has been liberal, we have just assumed everybody should have fish or the everything regardless of gender race and sexuality we have these ideas of fairness in the importance of evidence and they've been dominant for so long that we've forgotten how to argue for them. So I think we need to learn that again, I think this needs to be taught in schools. I mean, this is one of the dangers with pitas. Joe big constantly under threat. He is one of the few professors, left to teach critical thinking along these lines and if they succeed in getting him out. I'm not sure they'll replace that. So we need to get more of this going on in universities and a lower level as well. I remember that Helen, one of the obsession. That you've might that, I think use the Jhelum it and important in the prep sets while I think it's legitimate and impotence. But you've said that no one pretends that in our age in the mode night. We've got everything, right? But what's important about it is, it would be able to see we haven't got everything. Right. And we've been able to move to fix things and I'm into that. I think that's right. The. Scenes. We've seen on our television sets with two million people in Hong Kong Massey, proportion of population, they might get very plain that they prepared to be very courageous to defend their freedoms. I should remind us that in the western tradition. We've gone a long way down the ride all the stem wishing the frizz societies Ray the world has ever seen easy to knock that idea. But it's true when you stop and think about it. Absolutely. I mean, I think we do take Africans granted we take democracy for granted. I went when I see a rain, Ian seminarists the pulling off the hitch Arabs, and demanding the right not to have to wear them. And I think we'll feminism feminism is important that an I am I am grateful to the feminists, who went before me and got got me access to will the things I have now, so I do think we need to not take this for granted. I do think we need to push back at that very cynical pessimistic idea that we're that we're not still at lancing that this is some kind of patriarchal colonial system and be glad for what we've got an awesome keep improving. It. Pharma. So from furious aggrement, it seems to me that one of the keys to this is that we simply have to operate on the basis of respect and civility in a democratic tradition on, that's being challenged, and went on to say civility, it sounds like you know, we just want to be nice to one another in the way that we talk, and you should hold your often full properly, and also I please and thank you. It's much, much more than that. True. Civility, I think is a very robust virtue. It means that we can deal with that deepest disagreements by arguing the issues, not denigrating one another, and there's a terrible patent now where starting point is if we disagree, your ideas immoral, therefore, your immoral before I went he you, I think, yes, I made a similar argument to this, but Sam used to charity. Much more. I think that we need to talk to people that we disagree with strongly, and we need to say, so we don't have to hedge around those disagreements, we can express them very strongly, but stop from the principle of charity, believed that the person you're speaking to is both sincere. I'm willing tensions and then go from there prison laws, and how commented Bunce that you should never judge a person's motives. They wisdom. Yes, but not the motives, I think that given the range of us in society now and the enormous challenges, frankly confronting the whist economic environmental strategic diverse, serious as at the same time as we face grave self-doubt, even self loathing, and our culture, we have to, to reestablish the ability to be able to argue as vigorously as we like, but to not personalise it to not give way to the desire to demonize the other person or allow sills to be demonized. And if I have a worry about the modern debate as I hear it, including out of that university's eighties that we go to demonize first, and then talk lighter and bobby's time, it's often too late. I agree at. Hello, spayed terrific. Thank you so much for giving us your time. Thank you for having me. It's been good good public policy out of a bad debate. That's ass strep line on this show yet, I'm with that. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson. The further content visit join Anderson dot net dot EU.

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Conversations: Featuring Tim Montgomerie, political activist and newspaper columnist

John Anderson: Conversations

45:35 min | 2 years ago

Conversations: Featuring Tim Montgomerie, political activist and newspaper columnist

"You're listening to conversations with John Anderson, featuring Tim Montgomery. Tim, welcome to Australia terrific to have your own compensations, ura freelance writer in Britain. You've been the editor of the commentary pages in the times, and they're, of course, legendary, you're very Studebaker over what's happening in western societies in general. And in your country in particular ways Briggs going like goodness. I've come to a straight don't just gave him. Thank you, first of all, for the woman doctrine, and for having me on your commerce in this conversation, but. The vote for Brexit was a huge moment. I think in British history, the largest votes of its kind largest popular vote for more people voted for Brexit than, voted for Margaret Thatcher voted for Tony Blair hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people who, don't normally vote came out to the polls to vote for this great opportunity to leave the European Union, a real, I think, restoration of the nation state as a sovereign nation, not overseen, by foreign courts able to control is borders master on dusty just rights and freedoms, Australia. Tate's for, for granted and the political class promise that whatever the result, this was a once in a generation decision, they would implement what the people decide it. Now, the, the victory for leaving the U was not huge fifty two to forty eight percent. But it was decisive, and there was a still their obligation there to honor the referendum result, but seventy five percent of the current members of the house of parliament voted for a main and large the large number of them still haven't come to terms with result, still trying to resist that historic decision. And not only I think, is the Brexit project. Therefore endanger, I think faith in democracy is in danger as well. We should worry everybody. Well, it is concerning. Isn't it because? Even the idea of having a second referendum would be treated by many, many Britons. I would've thought as a denial of the right to have this, I in the democratic process, and one wonders how they would then participate in British society, what attitudes. They would then take some people probably of those particular people, I mentioned you normally voting elections, but thought it was worth thirteen EU referendum probably what again, and I've been out on the on the doorstep in recent weeks before I came here and there's real anger people are very angry at parliament's failure to deliver this. Decision to leave the European Union. Now, I suspect a lot of the remains of the parliamentarians, who are denying the referendum, what mind, the idea Brexit is not voting again. But the other danger is that actually some of these people will keep voting but they went for the mainstream parties, they'll vote for increase in extreme parties, extreme parties that really are trying to throw the whole Westminster system democracy up in the air and replace it with something God knows what literally God knows what, and that possible ushering in Iraq. Extremism, should worry anyone, I think that you're absolutely right about the dangers of second referendum. And I think those people who are trying to resist the will of the British people expressed in that referendum should know that they're playing with fire. It does raise a lot of issues. But come to let me come to one, the idea you've really rise there. The rear assertion of the idea of nationalism versus transnationalism. It's a red hot debate, one not really understood in Australia. That'd be stopped. This, why is there a good form of nationalism and bad form of nationalism? I guess it's obvious. There's a bad fall. But what's good nationalism? Justifiable nationalism. Look like. Well. One way, we launched during this question is to look at European history. And I think it's why Britain fundamentally has a different view of the nation states in the European project the most nations on the continent for Britain, national independence and self-determination is incredibly connected with the wall Winston Churchill lead against Notts Britain standing alone for a year with Commonwealth empire allies against what was the greatest that human civilization of all time out of Hitler, and Nazism, our general view, I think the nation is, is a good idea. But of course, in Europe, they remember the constant conflicts caused by nationalistic leaders and it's understandable, perhaps that they therefore see moving away from national self-determination to what is a pooling of sovereignty in. In the European Union, as, as a good thing, and that really is the heart of the divide, I think between remains levers in the UK levers want Britain to be back on the world stage playing its full part. And I think a lot of levers. Lots of remains forgive me a lot of remains see Britain is a nation pastas, best. It's a nation in decline. It's a middle ranking power a nation all to linked with ideas of the superiority of western civilization ideas that they're uncomfortable with, and they want Britain submerged in this in this European project, and much more than economic issues. I think it's that view of the nation view of whether something special and better about Britain and western civilization. That's driving the levers and something more humble, you could say something more negative. About those historical features. That's driving remain raises as issue that some people now put it in the west, the west greatest enemies, the wish. Yeah. There's some many people who self love their culture. It's funny that it comes out in an age when most people are reluctant to own any of their own failings. The old idea that we ought to be modest because we're all mixture of good and bad. There's an enormous self righteousness and now amongst a lot of the people who at the same time say, our culture is terrible. How did that happen? How long have we got to talk about that? But you'll see, I think it was debating Australia's L. But we have had those terrible bombings in attacks on the judges in Sri Lanka recently following the terrible events in New Zealand, quite rightly after the tobe events in New Zealand. World leaders talked about it being an attack on Islam and those missed that there was ready acceptance and I wouldn't quarrel with this, that there was legitimate questions to be asked about extremist westerners. And what responsibility we might have? Have four. Happening Christ's church, but after the Sri Lanka attacks, there was a reluctance to even recognize that this was an attack them churches. There was a reluctance to recognize that it was jihadi elements. A perpetrated these attacks daily remember term Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in their tweets wouldn't even use the word Christians. They talked about Easter worshippers and for some reason, there is an embarrassment about what I think is some of the best aspects of Judeo Christian, western civilization. This isn't about this isn't about white supremacy, people seem in a rush to conflate western civilization with white supremacists. All sorts of people have different backgrounds and colors were part of western civilization. It's a it's a set of values of democratic liberal principles and. Deepen universities. Now, deepened, so much of a media culture is a reluctance to say that our civilization is, is a very good one. That's flawed has problems, but we should be defending it. And we think actually it superior tool, turn, it is that seem to be much. One of the most controversial things you could possibly say, and so many newsrooms and university lecture halls, let's have a little bit Blaise PASCAL. Brilliant thinker. And writer absurd very simply that main hike religion and of course by that he meant Christianity. Yup. He wasn't talking about anything. Ellison takes time that he was writing in front men, height religion for fear. It may be true is something Mike up that wants to deny the concept of truce of it's uncomfortable if it doesn't suit will view, it doesn't suit where we're sitting at the moment. I think at a fundamental level. That's true. And I think it's true in so much of our political discourse at the moment, there seems to be. An unwillingness to wrestle with facts. People seem so dug into that political, philosophical cultural positions, and they can now in a in a media culture, weather, so many voices, they, they confined, voices on arguments that reinforce what they want to believe the don't just chew on the left on the liberal side of thing, we can be guilty of on the right conservative classical liberal side as well. One of my biggest worries about the west in the populist ages following some very extraordinary election results. In a time when technological coach will economic and social changes happening. Simultaneously, everyone thinks the same as they did before these events happened newspaper editorials. Spitting the same lines think tanks coming out with the same ideas and policies politicians, repeating the same ideological positions if facts are changing on the ground, and we're thinking exactly as we did before these events occurred asking for change in principle change your principles. But the application of those principles should change in times of tumult. And I think we're seeing that the entrenchment the group think the lack of openness to reason, in fact, which underpinned into the Christian based enlightenment that worries me a great deal. So you've touched on something very important. And I try very hot on shore from filed to remember it myself not. None of us have a monopoly on episode rotten have to wrong. We all occasions get it wrong. And whether you from the left or the right, one of the things that seems to have lost out of the system is the idea that the dividing line between good naval somewhere across every him and hot. Now, if we talk about evil that would call seen. It's usually in the in the sort of you're a dinosaur start using those what is turns. But we actually do to in very disparaging terms about the, the terribleness, if you lock people we disagree with, with that understanding that we have shared humanity. We're all mixture. It's been washed out. And if we talk about able, it's usually in terms of a lack of quality between the racial groupings and the inability to get on, but even between men and women now but it's never made. It's wrong, somehow it's youth wrong, how kind of democracy function if that is become a events, become understanding of rotten row. I think it's partly because we are not trying to get to know it other anymore. I think it's partly because of a breakdown in community that suddenly been exacerbated by social media. I think it's so much easier to say in a we're face to face now and. I think if we can see the reactions on each other's faces we've just had coffee together before this interview, I think, to be cruel to someone when there is some basic human connection is a much harder thing to do than when you're complete disembodied in social media over Twitter and Facebook, what has happened is forms of incivility have grown in the. The trysts fear, and the online world. And we creasing Lee seeing those forms of behavior seep into real life. If you like. General political a national discourse, and I generally find that. If someone has been horrible, cruel nasty to me online media, if I ever, do meet them in person, there's an immediate crumpling of their position apology that something when you are with someone it's not always the case, of course. But when you have that real meeting people, people are different somehow, we reestablish community between opponents. How do we find four where we're connecting with each other? Again. I don't know the answer to that should be what we see a huge issue to sort of frame it up the way I say it is that we now have a virtual global public square care, once a publicly was a place. Raymond Senator, whatever then it became if you like the houses of parliament in Britain. Then massive expanded on newspapers. And then by radio and television now social media, go to virtual public square given that everyone can express the point of view on it and do so. And that we've become so atomised. The question becomes, how do we learn a gain live without differences and? The has to be surely at least a willingness to hear the other person as well as talk to the more at them if we're going to bridge that divide again. What they is. We are early state. Sometimes it's hard to find causes of optimism. When you're confronted with the worst of what's happening the moment. But my hope is partly based on the fact that we're in the relatively early stages of this social media phenomenon and throughout human history. There's often a move towards a revolutionary technology or revolutionary idea takes hold for periods. And there's often a reaction to it. And I think we're beginning to see that reaction with a lot of people for closing down their Facebook, especially young people. Yeah. Because they don't like the distraction element. They don't likes the, the, the whole nature of a lot of the debate the personal nature of it, and it may well be that now on my iphone. I have a monitor of my screen time. And when I say the number of hours, I spent on that food it's horrifying, maybe they're going to be technological, as well as other cultural responses to this. Much more profound than those are the ones that I've just mentioned that will allow us to recreate community that will that people will start judging. Very nasty reactions on Twitter, and that will become the greater sin in a next generations, cultural development that what we occurring living through a rush to take offense rushed to think the worst of people that. As a first resort people will come to regard people engage in that behaviour very badly. Maybe it's for loan full-on hope. Well, it's hope we have to bring to go on a reality. Now this new numous. If you like contradiction of the heart of all of this, we live in what's called an empathy culture, where one level would tell the worst of all is to offend another person, the tickly that person's self identified victim must not offend them that is to confirm. They victimhood on the other hand, often the same paperless aims to me, armed with the keyboard will absolutely shred anybody who to disagree with them. How do we fit wise? At the people say the contradiction. There's. One of the biggest growth industries in the world of the is the victimhood industry, and I worry that it's taking place on the right as much on your left. And I think one of the leading characteristics, really of the whole Donald Trump phenomenon is he's turned a lot of the right and thinking that they are big Tim's of cultural economic content. The logical technical, some of them are, there are some real victims of the changes that we're seeing out there, but to think of yourself as a victim not masters of your own destiny. Captains of your own ship, if I think it's an infantilism really of people and culture. So don't think I'm quite on during your question directly. But the anyone can. But I think the beginning the beginning just as we took into position meter few minutes ago. The beginning of solution finding a solution is no of the problem. An awareness of how we're bagging and to recognize our own tendency within each of us. You talked about in a sit sitting passes through the hearts of every person. That's right. But the tendency to see us houses victims and unjustly treated is to pops. We can all we can all look to personal reform before wider social reform Jordan Peterson. He makes the point that redemption will not be at the level of political by being involved in politics. But rather at the level of the individual on I'm sure that is a profound insight and we talk about collective action. Of course, we have to act collectively, but we need to be coming, if you like to apply when we want to engage in collective activism from a will sort of personal view, so we're not out. So they simply say to smash and destroy because we're angry or we're victims I think we need to find out feet again. And what's really interesting about the whole deal. Peterson thing is that so many young people in this country. Anyway, that the venues that he spoke at was sold out, within minutes, guy online, same in London. Big wake-up, coal full. I would have thought a lot of today's intelligentsia, who have been very, very reluctant to grapple with the fact that a lot of young people are not all that taken with the cycle empathy culture. I know there's more to life that they do. And it's a very encoding phenomenon that he's emerged. But Lincoln, some of the things we've been talking about the hostility his faced when you see a university like the university of Cambridge supposedly one of the elite academies of learning, I think of learning as a should be of openness to new ideas when university like Cambridge in my own country refuses to engage with Peterson turns him. Way. I think it sort of another illustration of the problems we've been talking about what actually is, as an aside, as we've seen in our country resistance, the idea of teaching western culture, universities because of the tool about what's Premacy and what have you. The real reason is a lot of universities that have those courses were offered a lot of students would give up the pretty fluffy stuff that many of those universities are offering. That's part of it. And this is the Ramsey found the ranch. Senate. Soviet western civilization. I don't see how you can locate where you are. Let alone work outweigh to go an uncertain time. If you don't understand your past. You know, big lib on whitewash it, you can live from the mistakes, as well as the things we got. Right. We always. Learn more from mistakes. Yeah. So why not teach them properly inaccurately and personally, I'm not saying any great shakes, but if I've ever grown advanced as a human being very often because I've had to here's something very uncomfortable. I think we grand more out of realizing sometimes that we've filed we've got it wrong. We're not as good as we think we are. That when we're being patted on the back until the, you're the center of the universe, and everything, you believe in his absolutely Ryan, we'll for capitalism is sort of a parallel example of this. I think people look at capitalism is driven by profit, actually, I think it's most driven by loss, because when you're making money you carry on doing pretty much what you started to, and that, that's the reward for a successful innovation. But it's loss when things start turning down when businesses and sectors hit trouble. That's when you get the real of new competitors emerge, or you closed down doing things that aren't working anymore. That's what makes capitalism the huge dynamic force. It is in the world, often, I finding government, you'll be a better person having served in government. It's actually the reverse incentive structure, I think it was Milton Friedman told about about this in government, when things going. Wrong softener tendency, could you don't want to be come a mattress public more money is thrown at the thing that isn't working because you don't want to defeat and it's, it's willingness to react to loss to react to mistakes to learn from era to learn from criticism. If we stop doing that, then we really aren't doomed. Well, I can't argue with that Ola to pick up something you've just said they profited off. Nah, pint duty would in fact, properly understood. Prophet is very good thing. It's lifted countless countless numbers of people out of poverty. If the ground rules are fair and produce two sweaters, but I only need one. Your producing a fat lamb and you've got an excess one and you'll we wanna do you should be the one. You know, we can do a trial and we'd both profit. We're both in our own view further ahead than we would otherwise Bain and the retention of providence plowing back into further production. What is lifted countless countless people out of poverty? About your answer to this question of Bieber. If I could have given this. The opportunity to live in any time in world history. I think it would be now similar to now because this is a time when because of people pursue profit the medicines that we have the freedoms technologies, the escape from boredom unparalleled really if you are a woman or a minority, the opportunities much greater than they were in imperial of, of greater prejudice. There are plenty of things going wrong in the world at the moment, I think the weakness of family and community social media culture that we've been discussing, but I think these are problems that we need to strive to fix and to be grateful for, for world, western civilization produce. I think most of these benefits have been produced on the back of western civilizations commitment to learning and reason, and to the Christian ethic of looking after one's one's neighbor. So among. The gloom. Let's be grateful for what has been achieved off the back of this of this set of the Rijn Harrison to enjoy life on that hard to argue with. It's useful segue into something that I think you and I would. Pose which is that? Sound economics, which would be painted as conservatives by some. Actually, I think can be and ease probably very compassionate. The left will often argue that compassionate mains heart levels of taxation and levels of redistribution. In fact, I would argue that, that can be a title fight, or, and deliver very bad outcomes. You've often used the term I think, compassionate conservatism. What do you mean by that? The best book. I've read on boggled Thatcher was a book by Shirley, Robin Letwin. You've come across it personally, but it's a book written by all of the Letwin, who's currently because mother and she frames Thatcherism. As a creed of individualism, but not to creative individualism. I think is understood today. I think a lot of people think of individualism as a sort of. What I want me. Now I am indifference to anyone else of a selfish. Individualism and. Robbie let win in this book, if you look how Mrs Thatcher always understood, particularly, and I think one of the best beaches, ever given on the league between Christianity and public policy speech, the Margaret Thatcher gave in nine thousand eighty eight the church of Scotland the speech, I know you're familiar, it's remarkable. The seven on the mound. It was named in the business of trying to give speeches and listening to speeches and it's up there with the best road rage. Which vote and easy to find online for any of your watching listening to to this. But in that speech in one thousand nine hundred and how should they wrote me, let win describes? It was an individualism absolutely rooted in a social context of family community neighborhood of an individual's and taking the best from went western civilization. An idea of noble, individualism and shut rubbing Weltman talks about Mrs Thatcher really believed in the vigorous virtues of courage of uprightness of sacrifice of people who would do the best for other other people, Mrs Thatcher was first Methodist, background, and one of the great Methodists of history, Wesley's, his, his most, which Mrs Thatcher wolf people earn as much as you can save as much as you can give as much as you can so long onset your. Question. But this is a I think, is the heart of compassionate conservatism. No setting people free to do what ever they want, but setting them free in the context of a Judy Christian civilization, an ethic of community where they serve other people. They have people through lampy through job creation through public service and Mrs Thatcher world horrified towards the end of the probably why she starts giving speeches like she did to the church of Scotland that when her policies help a lot of people come ridge. Yes, there was a lot of social benefit to them, creating jobs, off the back of their own wealth. The, the products that they created that reduced the price of consumer goods allowed people to be liberated from the homes from backbreaking labor etcetera. But she thought that the very ripples of give much more that they would be more than throw pick. And she was very disappointed that lack of willingness to, to be. Socially responsible. And I think that's part of the challenge for considers today is to remember that we are not just an economic creed. The most important thing in life is not is not money. Will you read the book by David Brooks, where he talks about the difference between resume values hand eulogy fires? What do you lead your your life? Or do you take decisions for what you can put in your curriculum vitae? Do you live the life will when someone's giving a eulogy at your funeral? Do you live your life for what could be said of U than? And sometimes, I think too often, the right looks like a resume party or resume philosophy rather than a eulogy philosophy. Eulogy politics and the me, compassionate. Conservatism is moving us back to the best of our traditions. There's a bunch of issues, there voice tried to siren people said, you believe in the individual OPEL that view I've said, yes, I do. But if I believe in the individual, then I have to say you're Olsen individual and you of with your value now. That's the Christian creed do unto your neighbour, as you would have them do onto you pretty paths stuff that's applied to capitalism, than it plays into what you're talking about the capitalism that is easily character today, because it's true. On the fried of too many wealthy people. Too many influential people we've seen here with the commission of inquiry into the. Bank's financial sector. The gives gives banking and capitalism bad nine women's, it's it seems to be purely profit-driven for the benefit of those in the guy rather than people doing what they ought to do without coercion and behaving honorably and generously. So it raises an interesting point for me when you talk about taxes disappointment, in people approached news, newfound wealth. What comes first the fracturing of western society people in this country compliant. Endlessly about the political process, breaking down revolving door. Ladyship what have you? I'm not denying. It's not a real problem. But what comes first? The fracturing of politics in a democracy, all the fracturing of society than being reflected in a fracturing of that politics, undoubtedly, the fracturing society comes. I, I think I think if one of the Krizan you could make a lot of people on the right. A lot of the generous donation, donate donors to political parties on the right, is that we focus, too much on politics. Politics is downstream of education and religion and culture, the values all that we see in the Hollywood films that we watch in the plays on Broadway in less square. The the what is taught in universities. What is what is preached in pulpits? And in synagogues in Moscow. These are the big values from which later how vote flows, and so it's very difficult for a political culture to be strong, if all other parts of them society of a week. So I think the challenge for those of us of the conservative disposition to pay an awful lot more attention to the institutions that the left purposely March through. We've won a lot of economic battles in, in recent decades, the John Howard is which you were principal parts. The fact she is the Reagan years, but during those periods, I think the left were marching through the university's they were marching through religious institutions taking over the commanding, cultural heights of our society. Somehow we have to inspire the next generation in the way that Jordan Peterson and other people a beginning. To do to, to, to mount Tyrone. True. Those institutions or state start creating alternative institutions to those one institution. I would love a conservative government in Britain, and I most small parts of a campaign to do. This is to set up a museum of communism. If if I took off my shirt in this interview now. I worked to frighten, you view as MRs, but if I had a swastika t shirts with a swastika on brightly, it would be regarded as an appalling, if I took off my shirt, and I had a picture of Lenin. Red star a hammer and sickle. I know you'd be disappointed in me, but it would not be regarded as socially unacceptable in the Nazi and rightly would be. But if you look, communism you look at that philosophy. Many more people died many more people are still dying. So this week trucks, please trucks, those of echo chinaman square over running protests invented, in Venezuela, somehow, I think we need to teach the young that when you have land scale collectivization, when you do school, individual and feed him as communism and socialism. Never typically do in that in logical progression toward greater, and greater state control is an evil and dangerous philosophy. And we need to start creating 'institutions like that. That begin to change the culture, not everything could be done by government. But I'm not Senator station something that could be done by government. But it's hard, a conservative government conservative governments of certain kind in London, but there's no real interest or enthusiasm in doing this. I don't know if it was proposed in Australia, whether the liberal the liberal party embrace it. In those terms, you're seeing a very deepening rapidly awareness of how, how, how serious cultural Malays in this country, and I would say quite unashamedly that tissue institutions in particularly to realize how losing it with people now they're being saying to be contend dismissive, and the Ramsey center of study of western civilization. The reaction to it, and the clear implication, that many academe makes believe that would terrible watt supremacists that were the sons and daughters of Neo colonialist forces that have been horrible and Fafa, bring free and open societies. And good places to leave. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves doesn't wash with ordinary people. But how do they push back when you starting to push back and that's important, but it's going to be very, very long haul. Indeed, one of the main reasons that I believe is the lift following Karl Marx dictum. That people deprived of the history are easily persuaded of made certain that we don't understand our history. So for everyone who wants to point to some ugly aspect of colonization, and it was the I would wanna put up a winning move before. So Lord chaff spree or even an ABRAHAM LINCOLN. And so these were great know who did incredible things think of a Wilberforce, yet everything to lose, as a man of high position and great Wilson as a future prime minister by identifying was with people who are not even seen as human beings. I say Goodson chattels slides, but he did. It was an unbelievable. How can you take away that nobility, but it's not taught me more was it? Not well confronts, you with a terrible problem. He is a man who planned the actor out of deep Christian conviction doing things that no one could criticize no one could criticize leading the greatest human rights movement of all time. You don't want unfortunate fact. Facts like that getting in the way if you want to demonize past and site was all bad, and they're awful, lots of aspects of British empire, which are shameful. Yes. But the story is also once William Wilberforce. It achieved his aim and a huge part of that goes, he was forty years of fighting is perseverance is one of the greatest qualities that anyone can bring any 'cause he had so many defeats along party. He kept it. And of course he was technically as well. First of all, only wanted to campaign, the addition of the slave trade, not so purists got this slave. Yeah. And he didn't think that was possible that pragmatism is sometimes missing from Christians and other morally serious campaign. Sometimes half cop is better than no capital. And, of course, as soon as he had a chief d- his first mission of abolishing the slave trade. He began the movement of bullish Lavery altogether. What happened, of course, once he it's exceeded. That was we had the Royal Navy going around the world and Africans labels destroying those rules, the British navy that in so many universities would have only been seen in negative terms as a tool to in history, performed an incredibly important moral function. And yes, I'm not for the worst possible. I history to be swept under. It'll be taught untold. Honestly, the good and the bad tool. Honestly, we learned from the things we got. Right. We learned from the things we got wrong. But if we don't understand either we're right? Where we're at in wishing society. Now it seems to me unable to locate where we are. Because we don't know where it would come from unable to identify how to strike out in the right direction yet. And I think we out children better. I think they looking for. I'll have four children. And I now have grandchildren children in law, which is wonderful. I'm looking to their future. I've had a wonderful life in a free society. That's giving me great opportunity, I've desperately how much older grandchildren will enjoy the sign, given the fractious, given the challenges internal, and external actually confronting Australia. And let's face it, your country is will what qualities of leadership that everyone's crying out for leadership. Going to be needed in your view. That besides three things one would be conviction. I think we desperately short of leaders who absolutely no particular, right? Absolutely no. What they stand for. I've been in Australia. I've been talking to the center for independent studies about my Thatcher. There's someone you always knew where she stood for. She wanted to release the potential of the British people again, which have been suppressed, I think by union and government power misuse of that power. The second thing was. Pragmatism, she displayed a pragmatist them much of Britain was left untouched by her. She didn't reform universities. You didn't reform the national health service, she basically touched the welfare state, she knew that there were certain of battles. She had to win because they were urging I'm pressing the battle against the unions. The battle against Russia. The evil empire to unions them was the code will she needs to win the battle of nuclear deterrence station, nuclear weapons, and Britain and the third quality conviction pragmatism, but courage charge courage because there is, there are plenty of people in Britain. The plenty of people politics shared misses that GE's beliefs and outlook but were they willing to fight for it were they willing to put up with the flack, that, that she took I partly, I think, one of the reasons why she was so strong and had. So much courage, which she was still a man's world to a large extent now but the nineteen seventies, she emerged throughs to become Britain's first female prime minister, we're much more sexist much misogynistic than anything is true now and she had to fight to get to the to get to the top, and she had to fight to stay at the top, and I think that grit that determination allied in conviction meant that she was able to achieve victories. That many people before her tried to fight but Rene to win. I was amazingly encouraged here Jordan Peterson site, too young strenuous that when night sold themselves out, they should go out and be as noble as they can be. And set themselves. Hi, BAAs and strive to meet them. We need leaders of that sort of character. Now, I'm certain that there are people who prepared to pick up that challenge we just need to make certain. We give them the nourishment and the encouragement they need to do so. Absolutely. I, I really haven't admire of trying to do here in these conversations, and as one contribution to just helping people along that path. I think these are great. These are great works, and my favorite film is. It's a wonderful life usually show Christmas. I don't know whether you're a fan as well, but that whole idea running through that film that. Often. No, the, the little things that we do in life, the encouragements that we give to young people neighbors. They may not look like they match at the time. But if we had the advantage of angel Clarence to show us what our life. Contributed to I think it might well be the little things that we did mattered most. And I think encouraging the young emboldening the young encouraging the young to really strikeout for their ideals and beliefs, not much not many more important to us than that, as long as we're almost until him is not going to be easy. This thing that you here at school speech Nolato. Nolato inside all the time. You're gonna have you needed to you can do it all. It's not true. It's not true. You actually have to make tough choices. And if you want to make a difference, you've got to be prepared to put a lot of things down and sacrifice great deal. Yeah. Yeah. Linking that without conversation about William Wilberforce, he absolutely was one who had to fight hard again. And again, and again through much ridicule and opposition. But he didn't do delone. He was someone of great perseverance. He was part of the Clapham sex of as it was called of other evangelical and other non nonbelievers. They were there to support him through that task great tasks need application than sacrifice. They need courage, but they also need community, and perhaps the final was eventually move, we should hold up as an example was that he was a man Boone into fortune preps in today's money in Australia around four hundred million go, he died with virtually nothing in one of these children's because he'd spent not only innings but also capital, trying to create a better world, now, that's sort of model. We ought to be describing your children. Almond. Thank you. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson. The further content visit John Anderson dot net dot EDU.

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Conversations: Featuring Os Guinness, Author and Social Critic

John Anderson: Conversations

38:03 min | 2 years ago

Conversations: Featuring Os Guinness, Author and Social Critic

"You're listening to conversations with John featuring Guinness. Those welcome. Today's conversations terrific have you back in Australia and to have this chance to tool. I am deeply invested in this country. Loved very dearly on deeply worried. I have to say to see that the data reflects something happened seems out there. We're living in Tom's of unprecedented to breakdown in trust the trust deficit, no strategy now in parliament's in our politicians in major institutions financial. And otherwise is in uncharted waters. At the same time, we send to be polarizing the research shows that more strandings than ever are denting with the political extremes, particularly the left, but also the rod and the middle in the land of the fig with a would always believed that Jackson's good Aziz might the middle Bank squeezed. And I don't think this is just a strident what's happening to the western democracies? What are you touching on a whole number of things as yamba just start with trust? You can see the reasons of various levels, the one hand, many of our institutions from the political ones to the church ones have misbehaved, and they've squandered whatever credibility and trust. They should have had, but then at a different level altogether. We've got contemporary philosophies like post modernism, nothing is what it appears to be those always an agenda behind what's being done or said. So with Postmodernism, we're all schooled in suspicion and cynicism and mistrust or gain at the very simplest level. Trust is a matter of each one being person if there would nine don't mean huge things like say marriage vow till death to us pot. That's massive. But I mean, simple things see you tomorrow. All let's have lunch if I don't turn up or Moore's an hour late. I will not be seen as a man of my word. But. When in the simplest things, we do what we say we deliver. What we promise them. We become predictable to other people and that creates the social capital of trust. So trust is broken down in our modern societies at all sorts of levels. And those those who follows Jesus have to know how to begin, you know, not very simple things like being people would turning up only say and delivering an provinces and so on. What aspect of this particularly interesting concerns may because spent a lot of time in the Australian federal parliament is it when trust breaks down when people don't do what they ought and feel others are not doing what they should do. One of the responses that inevitably you end up with more laws and more regulations and more control, which seems to strike at the height of freedom load Multan well, put it the freedom is Abedian since to the unenforceable. In other words, freedom requires a framework and the only appropriate framework for freedom is self restraint. Not external restraint restrained by bustle. And I side you, you know, free. But the trouble is when freedom breaks down license, permissiveness, whatever it is people think, oh, we're going to have new rules and regulations. And then you lose freedom you've got to teach truth and character and virtue loyalty honesty, and so on to really know that people are living free, and they don't need external regulations. We live in a country where one of my neighbors. So to me other day said well. Well, freedoms heated stay, we're a strategy. And that's the way we do it. And it has been we've had a very laissez faire approach. We've always taken the view, even if I disagree with might down the right if he wants to do something unusual audits long as it doesn't interfere with me. That's fine. But it reflects something we live in this wonderfully free country. We didn't have to fought fort, we fought vigorously, and we're very proud of the way we fought to defend freedom, but unlike many cults, we didn't have to fought fort in the first place, we didn't shit Aaron blob in terrible cataclysmic events to establish freedom. If you look at the English, speaking world, America's rather different their revolution was buying tension, and by ideas, but if you look at Britain, Australia, Canada and much of the rest of the English speaking world, it just sort of came organically. It was there, and we accepted sort of in the water supply or whatever. But now, we've got ideas that are really Lian. So if much of English speaking freedom, basically came out of the bible and the Christian background today. Many of the radical ideas on the liberal left come from the enlightenment and the French revolution. And its as such as nature and Michel Fuko, and they have very different ideas. And they are undermining all that we used to accept and we got to be aware of that. Because if they win finally and at the moment, they are winning Sutton's phys. Such as the university world, the press and media and the entertainment world, but if they win culture wide freedom as we've known it, the English speaking world will be thing of the past. And that brings me to the point. And you've written a great deal about this. The it seems right to say, well, we've taken it for granted. We don't think about it. It's been like, I swat it's just there, and it's wonderful. And we assume it a little ways be there. The press we need to ask ourselves some hard questions. What is in the classical western Judeo, Christian and enlightenment? View the nature of freedom. What he's freedom. You know? It was one said a roses Rosas arose. And people think freedom is freedom is freedom, but you can see there are many many different views of freedom and many of them unsupported, and they lied in very disastrous directions. And so you haven't time to go into great depth. But one of the differences is freedom internal or external most modern freedom external only, whereas Jews Christians, most people in religion would save freedom has to start internally in the hot Jesus would say that or another huge distinction is routine negative positive and Isaiah Berlin negative freedom is freedom from an anyone constrained by anyone or anything outside themselves is not free. Whether it's alcohol or drugs or a bully or colonial power. They're not free you need negative freedom freedom from and we Christians say that. Redemption and salvation freedom from sin and its power. But then positive freedom is freedom full freedom to be that requires an issue GMs truth, which your gayness an unpopular topic today, but a strong biblical view. Freedom includes both the negative and the positive and not just one or the other whereas Mudan views tend to be the negative only libertarian views and people think that's enough. It isn't. So we've got to contribute to the discussion saying what actually is freedom. Let's be clear about what we mean. And where's it grounded? For example. The Greeks the Romans the Syrians and the Babylonians and the Old Testament say or modern atheists so determinist through naturalistic science. They have no grounding of freedom for the Greeks. We want free. We were fated, you know with. Modern naturalists we're not free. We're determined re to think alike, say Sam Harris on the so-called new hist freedom is a fiction, and that's very common among secularists. In fact, it's only Jews and Christians because of the bible that have strong grounding for freedom. God is sovereign. He's truly free. We're not sovereign with significant though and freedom is that gift of God through which we most resemble God himself. I had a very vigorous discussion quad recently with a young man product of one of bit universities in this country. And he was very angry with me said you're being incredibly exclusive saying that's only the Judeo Christian creed that is committed to the idea of freedom. And if you like the the concept. It's based on we in Judeo Christianity of the individual value the worth and dignity of every individual says, it's common to all of the great, creeds and religions. That's absolute nonsense. I mean, I just mentioned Sam Harris, you go to Jamie Watson bef skin numerous others. I mean, Jack, no chance and assess ity, you know, you cannot find freedom in the new atheists and tell your friend to look read the books while he did, you know, what he said what it's a standard thing. He said to me. Well, I've got my tablet here. I'm going to look it up right now. And so he tapped in freedom in a certain other religion. And of course, nothing came up. But that didn't discourage him there was a mindset was reluctant to engage in the debate. I started into guru. And I was in my twenties. You know, the Hindus talk of Mark Shaw. That's the sense would for freedom. But what does it mean it's freedom from individuality not freedom to be an individual almost they talk and freedom, but it's transcending this life and just assault nudges in water the. River flows into the sea. So we lose our individuality, which is caught in the world of allusion. And we go round and become one with the ground of all being well that is freedom as they understand it. But that's a very different thing say from biblical freedom, which is freedom for the individual to be whoever got his created them to be very solid view, which gives you also political freedom, you know, and I'll western freedom owes a huge amount to exodus let my people go. You know, the first example of the consent of the governed in exodus all the load says we will do the first separation of church and state you had the monarchy the priesthood and the prophet and the prophet was the counter cultural social critic holding the other leadership people and their feet to the five you down the line, many of the things that are basic to western freedom. You can find in the. Hora and particularly in the book of exodus. So the nonsense that everyone believes the same thing. It just collapses when you actually look at the differences. So to dig into this a bit more, it seems to me that this modern sort of view that's taking hauled. It's been pushed for educational systems, and so forth and young people little awareness, Avera, cultural history, and so forth. The actual results again in the data concerning if we talk negative freedom freedom from forget about political oppression or not having the rule of law for amendment talk about freedom from in a personal sense. The data suggests that an awful lot of young people are now note fray, tragically anxiety depression. Fear addiction and has many guises. To be bound any of those. I would have thought is to not be free classically. So it said the first danger to freedom is X tunnel. You find someone stronger than you a country or a person is out to beat you up or whatever. But the second danger of freedom is internal and it comes through the corruption of freedom. So freedom becomes permissiveness becomes license becomes addiction or free people love to be safe secure. So they wanna be so secure they surround themselves with it one nation under surveillance. They're no longer free big brother, watches, everything or they love freedom so much. They will fight to the death for freedom sacrifice for freedom. And they'll do anything even things that country freedom. So Americans say in Iraq, you think of the incredible things they did have. During the Iraqi prisoners things that were opened an I'll of American freedom. But I I say to my American friends, they call themselves the land of the free, but they're the land. They have more addicts. They have more recovery groups and any other nation in the world because their freedom has spiraled down to addictions. I've not using the Australian parliament representing a rural electric one of the things that people used to often side of me, I think it's a way of expressing the same thing. I don't know whether they still do it my success as get it. But very often if I had a meeting in the Bush, so to speak, which is what we call the country in this out of the will someone would say, I'm really wide. Now about the way we never stopped talking about rights, but you've got to balance it with our responsibilities. Isn't that a way of saying that if you want you to continue to be responsible in how you use them personally, and in society, Noah's rights assume required duties and responsibilities, and you can see in the book of exodus, the heart of the covenant system that they signed onto was a mutual responsibility of everyone for everyone you love your neighbor as yourself well out of those responsibilities. The neighbor had rights, but today, it's all rights. No responsibility, and the notion of entitlement is incredibly selfish. And so rather dangerous position. Yeah. I do worry about this idea of identity politics, where it seems that it's very easy now to be somehow elevated above the pack if you can describe yourself as a victim. And when you're a victim, you owed somebody else would fix it up for you usually starts with the government's Golder if the government doesn't then the victim says we'll I'm hated. I really am victim. You'll confirming it if someone does try and make that made there's thankfulness because it was an entitlement Novick. Tim politics is catastrophic and you think of Jewish friends they would genuinely victims six million under Hitler. But they realize to play the victim cod was self defeating because those who perceive themselves as victims and then. Portray themselves as victims victim politics, eventually paralyze themselves as victims, and that's the danger. So certainly those follows Jesus, you know, they talk about homophobia is I'm a phobia. And there was a group in the US who said Christians when they're attacked should play the Christophobia cod. And I've seen us dreadful. You know, Lord told us to pick up our crosses and follow him. Christians should be broad-shouldered through crust carrying. So we should never play the victim. 'cause if we catch in the neck because we're faithful he called that pot of what it means to follow him. So victim politics is absolutely self-defeating and disastrous that use understood that quickly and Christian should follow them. It's a terrible way of approaching. You know, the background is used say, though, is the ideological multiculturalism knows people are individuals. But the members are group's multicolor. Tras and things only in groups, and then you have tribal politics, and then you have victim politics. So so you is the difference rather than the things we have in common. Yeah. Which is a disaster. I think listen to an individual's so I'm a white male, and although white male so me you'll put in a category. And then you say is dismissed as you're bound to be that I might have used quite different. But no matter your immediate. They put like that. And so it's a dreadful way of discussing society. We are individuals people have voices, they should be given a hearing there, right and wrong, listen to and so on so we should crack the political correctness of victim, politics and identity politics. Whether they interesting things about these conversations, we're putting together a library. If you like of a hook quality content that people can access easily as we're talking to people from a variety of backgrounds, and I recently spoke to a man of the left in this country. Respect very greatly very clear thing it's been rotting extensively on the importance of freedom of speech, for example. And he made the observation to me that the labor party that he joined many many years ago. It was committed to universalism and saying that the weak the oppressed, the disadvantaged should be fully if you lot bought into the family of straightens, and I'm on this universalism, and he decries identity politics because it says it's creating a new elite, and as part of that often we missing the most marginalized of all the people who really need the help. It's sort of the squeaky wheel gets the oil Noah in the post modern world a world without truth where the principal is now power. And so what we're talking about it identity politics. And so on is a power tool to silence voices. They don't like, and they will look the marginalized, and I always say who were the first strong voices on behalf of the press. And the poor and the people know kid about they were the Hebrew prophets Amos and mica Hosea and Isaiah Jeremiah and Sonal. Thank god. They tackled it. In other words, they tackle the elite the kings and various people like that. Because they had no the who cared for a widow. God did and the prophet speaking in his behalf they cared to. So Christians should be in the forefront of those things because they are the forgotten people in the marginalized people, and there are many on the left who still care for that. But left wing politics as a lodge simply doesn't well to come to another man of the left who thinks very very clearly England's Frankfurt. He Saint a lifetime of left wing activism on campuses and says it in the sixties we were about expanding people's minds young people with testing the boundaries. Now, they're being pushed into a cookie Katamon. All where they may not differ. An indeed hall courses Saint to be designed and universities to avoid offending. So they're not about teaching and exploring and expanding our understanding truth there back if you like avoiding offense and staying Saif, but he made a very interesting observation coming to the issue of how we think about the framework. Religiously framework full societal freedom. And he said that the first freedom wasn't the way we often talk about the right to speak. He was quite adamant about it. Now, the first freedom was conscience, we lent to stop doing terrible things to people who held a minority view. I e said, I think he was very unwise anyway because one day the people with the minority of you might be in the majority, and you don't want them to turn around and due to the new the old majority minority what what what off suffered. But I think this idea of banning people at the stake because I had a minority view. We write these as repulsive said preps, the definition of or an understanding a starting point for understanding the legislative framework for free to Mr. say that it ought to seek to ensure that no one faces sanctions for holding expressing a minority view is that a workable concept, of course. And you know, the American alternative town for freedom of religion. And conscience is the first liberty knows you take the basic three conscience speech. And assembly or association. There's no hierarchy and they're all into locked, but freedom of association, assumes, the you want to get together with people to speak to them about something that matters and equally freedom of speech, assumes the while you could if you get together talk about the weather if you want to you want to talk about things that matter to you sue prematurely because you're convinced of them based on the dictates of conscience. In other words, the one that's the deepest logic cly. And also the first historically is freedom of conscience. It's the first liberty. But in a secular society Bill people believe freedom of the press freedom of speech. That's the first no conscience is the first. Now, if you look at it, historically, and we will follow Jesus have to be honest of this. The First Voices were Christian to Tallinn, the second century them, lack ten tears who's very. Very important because he was the tutor to the emperor Constantine son, and the Embry constant times the man who gave the edict of Milan. Which was the first grade edict of toleration probably affected by like Tanzania's. In other words, their idea was simple a free God invites people to believe in him freely and worship him freely. So you grunt freedom of conscience. But then sadly when the church came into power. There were terrible notions. Like era has no rights and later practices like the inquisition, the false baptism and the Jews horrendous and evil, although that notion era has no rights you hear among the new atheists today, but modern freedom of conscience came in the seventeenth century from the nonconformists Thomas house, Roger Williams, William Penn people like this. And so Christians should be proud of the fact that freedom of conscience, which came from these great people have faith is one of the contributions to modern human rights, but freedom of conscience is the first freedom. This is Putin in Australia at the moment because following the legalizing of same sex marriage. The prime minister determine that in his words freedom of religion was even more important than the marriage question on he was supporting same sex marriage, and we'd have an inquiry into it. So we've had an inquiry. And and as you, and I tool that's before the government, and they're going to consider it, many Australians might say. Well, we agree with freedom of religion. And in fact, the survey show, I think it's important. But I wonder whether they would say, well, actually, it's preps. If you like underneath this inquiry lies, fundamental issues that are even more important than the right policy debates at the moment when they think about their jobs, and the security and economic terms and all of those sorts of things in other words. Freedom of religion, really copy separated in my view from freedom of conscience and belief. The me many Australians who might say, I'm not actually religious for their no strategist who would say, I don't have a conscience, and I'd have beliefs. They really all belong together. This inquiry guys to the hot I would have thought of that right to speak to the things that I must deer and important to us and to be heard with respect and to keep in mind that my view might be a minority today, but it might be a majority view tomorrow. These things change I always referred to freedom of religion, and conscience and put the two together because the problem is the would religious freedom, which obviously includes conscience was coined at a time when pretty well. Everyone was religious, but in our society with the diversity of religions and the growth of atheism religious freedom sounds like or can be made to sound like freedom for the religious. And it's not it's freedom for everybody at that level of conscience because everybody believes something. Well, there are certainly those who would say then that religion should be acutely private matter and not be allowed into the public square. So to speak. I would argue that. Yes. It certainly true that there are stains on the record of Christians and they behavior down through the centuries, but the rule so magnificent things so there's enormous opposition site William Wilberforce who active at the time. It'll strategy was settled and the views that he was expressing in public. And yet, he's legacies extraordinary. The abolition of slavery and day, the tiny round of the audio that slavery was acceptable education for the poor even humane treatment of animals, the IRS PCA was active on so many fronts had he and he met very pine that he's might have. I was deeply Christian had he chose to remind private had he chosen not to be active in the public square. I would argue we'd be the losers. So I actually think there's a great interest in allowing a free and open and robust discussion around deep issues of belief motivation. Good naval how we should live. That's essential. I with you. But today, we have three very recent attempts to remove religious freedom. I reduced them to three hours. One of the reduces who claim religious freedom just freedom of worship and every dictator office that in other words, what you believe between your two years so long as you're keeping a mouth firmly shot they'll allow that. But that's nothing and the UN declaration is very expensive comprehensive view the right to to espouse and practice and share and change your belief. Is it can't be reduced to freedom of worship the second little hours the removes and someone like Richard tokens classic example, we want to remove religion from public life because it's messy extremist violence. And he said he got coming as a new atheist after. Nine eleven when he saw the ugly face of Muslim extremism in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the third law those who call themselves or a call by others as the rebrand us. In other words, religious freedom is not a positive chew, it's a way of weaponising discrimination. So people are hiding behind religious freedom. They say in order to be against the gays or whoever, and you can see the reduces the removers and the rebrand does are all over the place in the left now so religious freedom, which is incredibly positive idea. And it's for everybody's you said is now painted darkly. You interestingly talk about the two extremes Asikin public square and a naked public square identity. Either of us would see those two extremes as desirable. Can you explain what you mean by the naked public square, and every time she has to choose a model an option for how they put together religious, freedom and diversity and so one extremely of the sacred public square. Well, some religion Christian faith, Islam Buddhism, or whatever is either preferred or established or even a heavy monopoly, and you go mild form so that the church of England is a sacred public square. You've got very extreme forms of that Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, people that don't share that faith. They're in trouble for their lives. Take say the fate of the buy in Iran, or you even have Buddhist. Versions take the fate of there. Inga who are Muslims in Myanmar. The former Burma so that's the sacred public square, which is not just unworkable for everybody. If you don't share the faith the other extremists. The naked public square all religions removed in a strict separation kind of like the French-style. But of course, most of the world is religious eighty percent. Who knows what religion they believe, but they are religious. And usually when you have a sacred an kid public square you smuggle in secularism and give it a preferred place that you smuggle them in through the back door. So I reject both of those and argue for civil public square, which is a vision of public life in which everyone is free to enter public life engage public life based on the dictates of their conscience that's freedom of conscience. But within a broadly agreed understanding. Of what is just and free for everyone else too. So I am a Christian a right for Christian is a right for eighth. Easiest is a right for Jew is a right for a moment or a Muslim. All God bless Emma Scientologists like Tom Cruise a right for one is the right for another and responsibility for everyone. Now, you got to teach the three RS is that cold of religious, freedom rights, respect, and responsibility. And if you teach them, then people know, how to negotiate for example, I expect anyone's right to believe what they believe that doesn't mean I have to accept what they believe, particularly if they argue for it in the public square 'cause it might be very damaging to the public good. It might be intellectually muddled, it might be socially disastrous. It might even be morally evil. So I respect the person's right to believe it. But I have a right to challenge it and its political implications. If necessary. So you need a tough minded robust abate along with this acceptance of the the three RS is a very important point in that because we've loaned the by on that tough-minded civic square in this country to say we're getting to the country the point now, and this is across the west Frankfort. He's talking about it where we don't want to offend people. But actually in any robust civic square dedicated to freedom. The clash of ideas, surely means whilst we should always be against any physical Hammo violence. They're going to be times when some people are going to be offended. And in fact, I would say the times in my life when I've had the greatest wakeup calls. I think have probably been frankly felt pretty off Zog with some remarkable even hooked I we in danger of in the name of political correctness. So. Constipated in the public debate by. Trying to restrict cycle hate speech, and so forth that in France, we kill freedom for those who order speak, no unquestionably in the last two years. I've twice being the university of Berkeley. And I reminded them. I've I went the fifty years ago, and I met Mario Savia who led the free speech movement in Berkeley in one thousand nine hundred sixty four he would be horrified to see what's happening today because you can see two faces of political correctness one is what I call Milken water. And so you have these areas safe areas where students Eliaba to be offended. They can play with play Doh and stuff like this. What absolutely pathetic we don't have tough binded robust discussions. But then you have the sort of blood and iron response and thugs coming in beating up voices, they don't like and even tackling professors. And so on in the American campuses, you can see both and many Americans have become highly a frontal. Are you offend me? You dismay you can't raise anything. This is pathetic. We should have a tough minded robust debate. Jefferson says truth truth wins in debate. And we should have confidence in that struck me was a great hypocrisy here. In the many of the people who are pushing this long, we kinda faint anyone and you sit in our universities, mockery aggression warnings trigger warning Saif places platform denying you can't be subjected to any that modified you at the same time often, the very people pushing that using social media and using disgustingly the way they sometimes talk about people have different views reflect a deep hatred and a deep projection of respect for other people, and as Neil Ferguson point Saudis frighteningly class to the sort of level of distaste for others that can spill out into violence. So there's a double standard guy Christian contribution. We have to think through everything Biblically today. Right down to national things like truth. A what you're describing is the biblical view words words are incredibly creative. They created the universe. But in. The Fulham world words can be incredibly creative, and they can be incredibly destructive. And the idea the sticks and stones may break, my bones. But words, never Humby is actually not right at all. And we're the social media the destructiveness navene months of the ad hominem. Insults. And so on is a disgrace. And again, we'll follow Jesus we have a high view of human dignity, a high view truth. We should also have a very high view words watching words. I mean in America, the crew the lewd, and the re rude have just become common that people think this is freedom and I'm appalled. You take something. Like, the f word it means nothing in terms of content, but it many Christians headed in this sentences routinely, which is appalling. So we've got to think through our words, and speak with woods, truthful and gracious and constructive and so. Oh on we've got to make a contribution in America game where I'm living. Currently it was always said that the election of eighteen hundred was the worst and how bad things what they wanted us bad as eighteen hundred but twentieth. Sixteen was worse than eighteen hundred and twenty sixteen wasn't an election. Now, we're beyond that we're back to normal. It's continuing and the daily viciousness of the assaults is absolutely appalling. In Washington DC in America America is tearing itself apart. Well, that's not Benny Australian way we need to be for Warren forearm. I think in this country and just close off by saying, thank you very much. And if anyone doubts that it's real in this country. We need to be alert. It was in the woods that young fine. Young man that you and I met while you're in Sydney who said he now feels absolutely afraid. To speak. He's mind in his educational setting for fear Bank, condemned and hectic paces per social media. That's not the sort of a strategy. We want to take food you've helped us think they sings for you in your visit here, and in this conversation as your true friend who has all thank you very much. Now, it's a privilege, but you remember the words of pasta Monte niemoeller after the wall, you know, we all know people like Bon her for another's, but new Mullah said, they came first for the trade unionists, and I wasn't a trade union sudden speak up, and then they came for the Jews, and I wasn't Jewish. So I didn't speak up, and then they came for the Catholics, but I was Protestant. So I didn't speak up, and then they came for me and those no one left to speak up so things from the left. I'll getting worse and it's time for everybody with confidence and the goal. Spool and courage to speak up. Now, whatever it takes. Thank you very much. And thank you, for example, in the model that you've said my privilege. You've been listening to conversations with John Anderson, the further content. Visit John Anderson dot net dot you.

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Conversations: Featuring Jonathan Haidt (Part II), Professor of Ethical Leadership, New York University

John Anderson: Conversations

39:25 min | 1 year ago

Conversations: Featuring Jonathan Haidt (Part II), Professor of Ethical Leadership, New York University

"You're listening to conversations john anderson featuring jonathan height. Don't thank you very much for agreeing to a second conversation. This time you know strider last time we talked in new york and you've been here talking about. You'll let us book coddling of the american mind and i want to say up front now. I'm going to hold it up in front of the camera. This ought to be on. Everybody's christmas list this year. I think it's superb it goes to the heart of the challenges. We're facing socially and therefore in terms of economic and political freedom going into the future. It's beautifully accessible to to points up front one would be neither of us want to sound like we're anti young people. We're actually only saw. We think the problem is that we're giving seeing them. A bad set of rules to live by on the second point is that i'd love to explore a bit is that you've been very frank in warning us that i very freedoms are at risks since you're bringing a hero strider so we'll we'll thank you johnson pleasure to be talking with you again. <hes> when we talked in new york last time i was just finishing up the book and we spoke mostly about my previous work on moral psychology. My first book was actually called the happiness hypothesis finding modern truth in ancient wisdom. It was about ten inches ideas and what's been going on in the united states. At least is it's as though some people read my first book on ancient wisdom and then decided to do exactly exactly the opposite of what the ancients recommend and so this book the calling the american mind <hes> the subtitle is how a good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure <hes>. We've been teaching young people some very bad ideas. It certainly isn't their fault but i think we should probably start with what's wrong in the book. We say people shouldn't catastrophes but yet we are gridlock yonathan. I are in a way catastrophes because we think something very serious is happening. Which is that kids born. After nineteen ninety five which in other words gen z. or jen's said here in austrailia you might say <hes> jen's said has extraordinarily high rates of anxiety depression self harm and suicide much the higher than kids were born just three or four years earlier and so there is a mental health crisis <hes> people all over america britain canada australia so you see this and so the book is it turns out while it started with what's going wrong on american campuses it turned into what did we do to generation nations e- what is going on with him that they have such high rates of of mental disorders and one thing. I'll say up front is that one of the best things i've found about jen's e is that they're not in denial at all. They see that their generation has problems. They understand that those problems are intimately tied up with the move of social life from normal interaction to online or social media interaction and so this is the puzzle. We have to unpack what happened. Why what do we do about it. Just talk to jonathan rabbi. Jonathan sacks in great britain. He makes the same point that he thinks i think-i fawns it's fair to say some hope the fact that those young people are so realistic about the situation they found themselves in and as you sites in the data some young people who say look everything's going to ripley in all the rest of it. It's <unk>. It's not going well. No that's right so let's let's. Let's frame this discussion. The broader context in which overall on this planet for for our species things are generally going well. Poverty is declining prosperity is rising so steven pinker has two books about how the broad trends are good. How how people have for centuries or millennia overplayed the negative. They've been too pessimistic. God would he's right about that overall but as you say it's in the data and so in chapter seven of the book we go into the data on mental health and is just stunning. It's not a small effect. If you trace out levels of depression anxiety diety to american teenagers it's fairly steady. Girls have higher rates than boys especially the gap opens up around puberty girls have higher rates boys but in for both both sexes they've number bounce along until right around twenty twelve twenty thirteen and then suddenly the boys go up and the girls go way up that's true for depression and anxiety nothing else so it's not as though they just suddenly are happy talking about things they're not. They're not suddenly loosening up diagnostic criterion saying oh i have schizophrenia. Oh i have bipolar disorder now. It's only anxiety and depression. The rates are way up for girls and if you look at younger girls at t the the preteens eleven to fourteen that's where you often see increases more than one hundred percent the rate of self harm the rate at which preteen girls are hospitalized because they cut themselves deliberately is up one hundred and eighty nine percent in the united states. <hes> similar sorts of data in britain canada australia have found self-harm data but anecdotally it's happening and it's very hard and i have been catching up. That's right used to get it wasn't so much of a difference in the taped between boys and girls but boys more often succeeded well. The the general finding is that girls make any more attempts because they use reversible means means and it's a it's often seen not as a deliberate attempt to actually end their life but cry of desperation in please so girls in every country looked at girls make many more attempts at suicide but they usually actually use pills that are reversible boys make fewer attempts but they tend to use guns or toll buildings and so they're more likely successful but the rate of completion for both sexes is up and in america at least girls are closing the gap with boys because their rate is increasing much faster wrote as you said now social the media can be so powerful that people can be cancelled and as we've learned in this country that can literally result in people taking their own lives. It's pretty profound. That's right that is thought to be one of the reasons why teen suicide is going up in many many countries because look it's hard you know i think myself is fairly tough. I'm pretty good in an argument demint but the times when i when my reputation has been attacked publicly on social media. It's very painful. In a way that i hadn't anticipated a reputational destruction is painful full in a way that is unlike anything else and it is a reason throughout history when people have committed suicide when you reputation sullied. It's common common thing to commit suicide. Tell me it would be useful. I think a lot of our listeners deci little about the difference between anxiety and depression and as i understand it anxiety audie is something that is perhaps more concentrated amongst goats depression amongst boys. I'm not as far as they know. Anxiety and depression are related in that almost all mental disorders. Almost all traits are heritable and if you are more at risk of depression than you're also more at risk of being zayed's one way to think about it is your brain set to seattle and go after them or is your brain set to see more threats threats and be careful about them and neither one is really correct. Although in a modern safe society you'll be more successful than happy if you're more set to the positive reproach side so we've known for a long time since the nineteen eighties that mental health or susceptibility depression anxiety is highly heritable but your genes means. Don't determine your fate they just say how likely are you compared to others. When we see a whole generation shifting we see a whole generation with something. Let me much much higher rates of depression anxiety that tells us that there's something in the environment that is changing kids the kids who are born with an immunity to it her born to be a happy and approach oriented. They probably are not very depressed. Now they're able to handle social media <hes> but the kids who were in the middle and wouldn't have been depressed twenty years ago now our being sucked into depression and anxiety well just to go back to you over useful. Let's framers up. There's a lot to be optimistic about. Globally there really is longevity. Javadi the tackling on on background ruler such cycles the progress. We've made in feeding people long way to go but it's an incredible we now have more baseball than we do undernourished which is a issue in itself and again even in the west is much to be positive about must be dom <hes> if people feel them as challenges to be overcome rather than to be iva come by. This is a western problem in muggeridge's famous words were in danger committing ourselves out from within and we want to find positive solutions to come back to a gun. I'm going to plug a guy and i'm going to say. I think it'd be terrific. Perfect every parent intending parent probably their children as well with a raid this highly accessible book. I'd love to explore your what do you call. Three terrible ideas the rate from the flyleaf very well written fly life as well. You say that the new problems on campus cy young table have their origins in three terrible ideas that have become increasingly woven into american. We could add west really charles education and firstly what doesn't kill you makes you waker and people immediately remember the all saying yesterday. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger but you're saying this is one terribly cloudy always trust your feelings which is a mantra everywhere at the moment and law is a battle between good and evil evil people these three great untruths contradict basic psychological principles about wellbeing an ancient wisdom for many cultures so that's a great stop. Can we explore rule this idea of what doesn't kill you makes you weaker and the notion of anti fragile you tell a fascinating story about peanuts yes. This is the a key idea in the book. If you don't get this idea you understand what's going wrong and if you get everything else seems easy and obvious so the central idea of the book is it comes from the same the lab <hes> the guy who wrote the black swan he he was trying to understand there are certain systems that <hes> that benefit from shock and disorder and challenger and failure he he's one of the few people correctly called the financial crisis he could see that our banking system had not contested so that if anything went wrong it was all going down and so he's thinking about this after the financial crisis what is the word for systems that actually need to be tested and challenged and he comes up with anti fragile because there is no word in english language. We use the word resilient. If you ask people well that's resilience no as he points out something is fragile. It's going to break if you drop it so you have to protect it something. That's resilient won't break but it doesn't get better so aplastic cup if you drop it on the floor doesn't break it's resilient but it doesn't get better from being dropped and he wants no. What's the word for system that have to be dropped. That might sound weird your to your to your viewers but think immune system. That's the best example. The immune system is a miracle of evolutionary engineering. It created an open system that learns about the environment what toxins and bacteria what threats in the environment then it develops antibodies to that if you protect your kids immune system if you use a lot of bacteria weitz if you were to raise your kid in a bubble like oh. I don't want to get sick. I want to protect my child. Since the immune system is anti fragile that would make the child fragile because the child would fail to develop normal responses and so we opened the book with the story when when my son max was going into preschool we had a gopher parents orientation night and the teachers are going through the rules and they wouldn't stop talking about food issues nuts. Don't bring any peanuts. Don't bring any other other nuts. Don't bring anything that was ever in a factory with nuts. Don't bring anything has the letter p. in it. Practically i mean they were insane with the anti peanut rules that what you know what's going going on here and as i looked into it what we learned is that rates of peanut allergies are indeed rising. We know that but only in countries where the medical authorities authorities tell pregnant women don't eat peanuts and right there. You see the clue so a study was done by doctors who realized this looks like we're actually we are advices backfiring. They randomly assigned about six hundred women. <hes> who recently given birth who had kids who are at elevated risk of peanut allergy half of them were signed standard advice. No peanuts and half of them were given bags of this israeli snack food. It's popcorn bit a peanut powder on it tastes like peanut butter a little bit. Give it to your three-month-old three months old beloved little things they can dissolve in their mouths. Give them peanut powder and guess what five years later when they they followed up on every and they they looked out to make sure everyone it was safe five years later when they tested them it was i think seventeen percent of the kids who followed standard advice had a peanut allergy for life. They're going to have to worry every meal. They eat the kids who are exposed to peanut dust three percent in other words we could nearly wiped out peanut allergy's by doing the opposite of what we've been doing an argument argument. The book is it's the exact same thing with kids develop more generally. We have been massively protecting kids from bad experiences no teasing if if someone teases the kid in school that's bullying now. You can't teach someone in school. <hes> we want to protect them from bad feelings. We want to protect their self esteem. We don't want him to get hurt. We don't want them to take any risks. We think we're helping them. It's just like it keeping them. Safe from peanuts where weakening and so our argument in the book is is that there are two main reasons for the explosion of depression anxiety number. One is social media. We'll we'll get to that because that is a lot of discussion the others the massive overprotection action that we began in the nineteen nineties when i speak about the book i was asked. At what age were you allowed out. What age were you without without any adult supervision and wherever i go i did it last night here in sydney and people some of his eight eight. I was out at six. Oh we would play the cows came home. Oh it was great. You know everyone talks about how they were out playing with their friends until the nineteen nineties at least in america. I think actually you're doing the same thing here. We just stopped. If you let your kid out they'll be abducted. If you let your kid out and they try to cross the street they'll be hit by a car. We can't let kids cross streets until their ten or twelve and so when we don't give kids the chance to develop normal human defenses toughness ability to be teased abilities back when we deny them all that we're not helping them were harming their development. That's what we think happened. Bunch of issues used to explore in the new yorker closer probably siphon out in the roads when you're greco. It's the crime rate in new yorkers back down to what it was when my parents were young in the nineteen thirties very very very little crime and then of course you know everything else is safer. You know less likelihood of bricks. Falling off buildings fewer cars going out of control less alcoholism so yeah. Life is a lot what's safer but we don't trust our neighbors. We are freaked out because of the media. If some if a kid is harmed we're gonna hear about it on the news so for variety of reasons the world gets safer and safer but we're protecting our kids more and more and the result is damage interestingly exploring this idea of a the gentle teasing along the way being part of the package. Australians great teases actually traditionally is becoming incredibly incorrect. Now that's right english working class prediction edition of teasing each other and it can be fun it helps now it can veer into bullying so the key thing we learned that bullying is the original definition of bullying in the nineteen eighties required that at the over across time so if there's one kid harassing another humiliated him day after after day that can lead the victim to not want to go to school. It is important to crack down on true bullying but we have what's called concept. Creep invented by australian australian friend. Nick has limit university melbourne bullying the definition of it gets lower and lower lower to the point where if one kid says you're stupid. That's not considered bulliest. Eh you can't protect kids from every little thing interestingly. You'll fellow american warren fouls written a very interesting book called the boy crisis an he actually makes the point the that gentle ribbing and part of the hull sold of interaction between father any children can help sit a kid up up to be able to laugh at themselves and to cope with a bit of ribbing in a few setbacks in the classroom and out in the workplace. Although he draws a distinction he says it a child will find ribbing from hotter to cope with that looked mum for support and warmth and understanding they expected stimulate them and have a little bit of a go within the bounds of reason. I haven't read the book but there are big differences in the way the boys and girls interact and some of them relate to the way they use language and boys are more likely to tease and compete. We have a problem the united states in that as the the mental health community the psychology community. I'm a psychologist as it's sort of modernized shifted and changed politically. There's in much more the idea that masculinity is in and of itself bad or toxic so i i think the guidelines veer more towards i think how to raise the girl and i think boys don't quite fit into that so i need to dig into that. I need to read farrow's book. I need to read the new american psychological association guidelines before i critique them. I'm too heavily but yes i think competition ribbing teasing normal healthy parts of boys development and if we protect them from this in the guys is that the teasing bullying. I would guess that we're harming them. Overall the reason that i rise is it seems to me as i look back out of mind left which is increasingly increasingly looking like a long time now if they're buying tom's and they might be able to say well. You've never grown much bud if there've been times when i've gone and when self reflections and useful frankly thank leads often because people told me with a nasional something i needed to know about a self to shake missile. That's and that's i would've sort anti-french the anti fragile <unk> exactly that's perfectly put. There's a brand new book. I've just reviewed it two weeks ago. It'll come out in october called the power of bad and by john tyranny who signs journalist roy bound meister is a very famous social psychologist and they review enormous area of research showing that in general bad is stronger than good. If you have a relationship and you say one bad thing to your spouse and you say two or three good things to your spouse. That's the ratio you're in big trouble because bad is four or five times stronger than good on average in the in those contexts most importantly that is turned within good as a teacher feature so you can reward good behavior you can punish bad behavior and research shows fairly consistently that we learn more from punishments we we learn more from setbacks and failures and so of course you need both and it's nicer to give rewards <hes> but if we protect kids from bad experience it's from bad feedback. Were cutting off. Perhaps the majority of their learning you can tell kids <hes>. I'll i'll give you <hes>. I'll give you a nickel every time you don't bring your finger on the stove while cooking but one time burning your stove on the finger while cooking and dan your nervous system. You're going to be careful yeah yeah. That's a i think it incredibly paths at a point went to mike that we also have corporate history by the way which we now want to ignore and scrub out of the system sound the same way you learn not to burn. You think you don't do it a gain. There's a lot of things ass assadi auty has i think in terms of knowledge and understanding built up over the ages we now want to discredit history so we lose at corporate memory as well. Will i mean what what do you mean about corporate memory. What do you mean by that. Well the wisdom of our. We don't bring it forward anymore. We don't bring to the table so we have to relearn listens that really were there for the taking simply by listening to all wisdom because it leads into the second point. Which is that always trust your feelings will there are plenty of thinkers down through the ages of said. Don't trust you think you failings think carefully and ensure tool that if you lock your heart and your mind or in sync that your mind as analyze what's true and what's not that's right so a lot of ancient wisdom are techniques from proving you're thinking a lot of the ancients east and west is especially clear in the buddhist tradition in in the east and the stoic tradition in the west taught hot us that we we have these emotions that warp and bias us they make us more worried than we need to be and both buddhism and stoicism our techniques techniques of practice that allow a person who practices that allow them to get some distance some reflection to question their nishel reactions of our brands are set to react strongly again because bad is strong with good. We tend to react to fearfully. We tend to see negatives so the ancients were very good at telling us to get past. Ask these biases and this is these are important schools for young people to know. A big connection in our book is to cognitive behavioral therapy rig lukiana okay on the story of the book. Is that greg. Lukianov who runs the foundation for individual rights in education is prone to depression and when he was treated for suicidal recital depression in two thousand seven he learned cognitive behavioral therapy where you learn to recognize these distortions catastrophes over generalizing black and white thinking emotional emotional reasoning which is if i feel angry at you. You must have done something wrong so greg learned these techniques and then he sees college college students doing this in two thousand thirteen fourteen. We'd never see he had not seen this before but suddenly college students in america were reacting as though if this book is assigned if the speaker comes cbs to campus people traumatized. They were catastrophes about it. <hes> so cvt cognitive therapy is basically a way of taking the wisdom of of buddha and and marcus aurelius and the stoic philosopher and learning to practice it yourself especially in university. We should not be telling only people hey you feel this. I feel that i can't tell you what to feel no in a classroom you say you believe this. I believe this. Here's my evidence fort fort. What's your evidence and then you work it out. That's what critical thinking is. That's he made progress towards the truth and if we validate or hyper validate feelings if we say feelings are guy i to reality were harming our students ability to make progress towards truth don coming back to this whole question of wisdom and receiving saving the wisdom of the ages of the accumulated wisdom of the ages. You might reference to some of the past the great thinkers. It seems to me that we live in a culture now. We're it's not valued. We don't teach we teach our own history. Yes and plenty of very significant leaders who have said that people oh cutoff way he's from the history allayed anyway by the nadia's or at least open to being late anyway by the nights. Don't have a sense of place a sense of so on a sense of if you like where where they're at now i think that's right and this to me is the essential conservative insight. When i wrote my book the righteous my day read a lot of conservative writing progressive writing and edmund burke in the history of the revolution france. He has some ladies meditation on how breath how the french they'll throw everything out and start a new but we english the gist of it is we we would not put a man to trade on his private stock of wisdom. That's the key quote we understand that an individual trying to figure things out isn't going to get very far that it you actually need to build on all that has been learned previously and i think that's correct. I mean you need a balance of conservatives retaining what is old and useful and progressives pushing for changes. I'm very much a yin yang sort of person but if you think about it in that way what happens when social media comes in what happens when now how young people are connected so closely to each other. There's not room for connection to anything holder and so anything back to my childhood. I have no idea what the ratio issue was but i was in touch with things from several decades before i watched t._v. Programs from the nineteen forties and fifties. I threw my parents. I had a real sense of what life was like new york city in the nineteen thirties so i felt as though a lot of what came into my to my eyes and my ears was more than ten years old some it was more than one hundred years old edgy read shakespeare you read history so it's good to have have things coming in from all different eras fast fast forward to two gen z. if they are hyper connected to each other than an enormous amount of what comes in is no more than a couple of days old and very little of it is more than ten years old especially if it's not in digital form. How could it get. It hasn't been digitized so i think we can say that that that jen said in addition to the mental health problems we've given them. This technology has given what you might call wisdom deprivation disorder. There's an enormous hunger gra from meaning. This is not just true for young people. This has been going on since at least the nineteen sixties seventies eighties the west western progress cultural change the rise of individualism has has left an enormous sense of emptiness and we've been talking about this for a couple of generations. This is not new for jesse but but i do believe that people who don't have a sense of where they fit they don't have a sense of overarching meaning are more vulnerable to cults to faddish ideas is <hes> two stories about the cause of our problems. It's all them. It's their fault. They're the ones who we should blame so i do think that traditions which evolve evolve over time do concentrate wisdom and that any generation that stops attending any generousness cutoff is worse off for it. This rise of individualism of self is among the big millions. David brooks calls it. Daniel altman prices it to the sixties. He's says we gave up on the mit. Narratives rule to hardwood rejected a judeo christian heritage. The seasons that followed communism fascism humanism it is an optimistic and pessimistic at all that down so we'll just live for me now and enjoy ourselves cheap credit we could live pretty well and when we ran out we demanded more format congressman and i gave it to us now. We've got the horrendous debt problems. It does seem to me that <hes> the abandonment of a lot of that ancient ancient wisdom and you refer to new book you quite sultanate's and you quite <hes> rabbi. Jonathan sacks both of them pathway arguing arguing that if i can put it this way the idea that i'm rotten everybody else is wrong is very dangerous that the dividing line between good and bad good and evil <hes>. It's a very dangerous thing to draw between you and me or on the basis of gender or sexuality or rice. If we're to stop stop being fully human we need to recognize that dividing line crosses every human heart and you talk about that a lot in the book yes so there's two ideas and what you just said one is the rise of individualism vigilantism and as older forms of organization that often suppressed individualism and and brought out or pulled from people more of a communal orientation and and religion would be preeminent in that <hes> as those forms of organization become less important people are still religious in the united states the fastest growing religious religious logistic nation is spiritual but not religious so as people leave formal churches that do tend to suppress or or encourage people to not think of themselves in in the big me actually love the night at using the bad philosophy so as so there's a lot there's a lot that is good about the large the large organized religions that have dominated on this planet for the last few millennia the slot that's good about them in that way and so- conservatives especially notice notice that the gigantic inflation of the self that happens when people leave those forces that kind of constrict selfishness or self orientation i quote in the in the happiness i said quote the opening line from the purpose driven life bunny then jellicoe pastor rick warren and i'm jewish old thirty four min the yet that's right one of the biggest selling books in modern times and i'm jewish atheist but when i read the opening line of the book it's so simple. The opening line is it's not all about how you and the power of that line because in a sense a lot of us know we have the sense that like oh yeah like i've been so focused on me. We a lot of us know that this big inflated self is not good. There's something ugly about it. So i do get religion a lot of credit for having evolved ways of constraining this tendency tendency to inflate but with that said of course religions often refi certain ways of being that if you don't fit there's no room for you and so in the western the situation especially gay people in particular certain obvious there's a bible passages it would be hard to have religion maintained its maintained its hold over us and still have societies which everybody can flourish in ways that they freedoms that they need to flourish so again. You need this balance of progressive impulses in change with conservatives surveillance. I believe that's one piece of it. The second piece you were looting to is the the what jonathan sacks calls the pathological dualist human beings evolved. I believed to be tribal. We evolved in settings in which we often formed groups to compete with other groups often violently. We are so good at doing us. Versus them that we invented team sports. There's no it's it's huge waste of time unless you understand that it satisfies our deep deep desires for tribal conflict we enjoy it so religions evolved in that context as well. I believe both the religious themselves evolved culturally and our minds evolved biologically. That's that's the story telling the righteous mind religions often foment a pathological dual ism within any religion you can have more fundamentalist sects within the religion that will play up us versus them and then i in many religions especially christianity. You clearly have more <hes> more loving elements that that tried to play it down to try to be more universalistic. I listing that preach love so each of the major world religions is complicated there elements that would seem progressive there elements that would seem conservative. What we say in the book is that we're seeing on campuses. The rapid rise of a form of identity politics that really plays up the pathological dualist this we praise the identity politics of martin luther king of nelson mandela the identity politics that says there is injustice stice <hes> we appeal to our white brothers and sisters were all brothers and sisters were all americans or all south africans. If you draw a larger circle around the people and you humanize others you appeal to the humanity that actually works whereas what we see on campus is a form of identity entity politics sometimes called intersection -ality. Will you teach people to see lots of binary dimensions and while it certainly true that these dimensions direct the point that they intersect intercept is a very valid point but if we're encouraging people to see to look around a race gender sexual orientation good bad if we're encouraging people to make more more binary distinctions and to attach moral importance and emotional importance to it. There is no way through to a good point at the end. If you wanna create a tolerant divers first multicultural society and you start preaching hate hate these people hate the people who are high on power hate there. There is no promised land at the end. I don't know of any community that has embraced this kind of identity politics in gotten to adjust equal and peaceful place so that's a third of the great untruths life is is a battle between good people and evil people in a sense that's already built into our our minds and the goal of education in modern western society should be to downplay that to to teach kids. No don't look at the world that way. Don't see life that way all of us have the potential for good and evil people make mistakes. We have have to have forgiveness. We have to have due process for adjudicating. When there are transgressions there has to be some some grace some mercy. Ah one of the areas where i think we have a real problem is areas of forgiveness and forgetting and they do seem to be particularly judeo-christian ah christian concepts which like very much at the foundational instincts that built america and the great western beacons the freedom and let's face it. We're talking about a collapse in those cultures. That's what you and i've been talking. You've been warning us here that washing of forgiveness and forgetting and forgetting out it seems to be a real problem and one of the issues i do have with progressives is that they instinctively gafa hatred rav and forgiveness and understanding indyk well yeah i wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to say that progressives in general gopher hatred. I think what we see is that as as the social the justice movement plays out on social media and on the internet what we see is not across sections not the average overseas the most vocal progressives who have developed a form of social social justice that has some real really problematic elements to it and so social media facilitated a call out culture makes it effortless to accuse the people of racism sexism homophobia anything else and if you're gonna call that justice if you're gonna say justice is calling out transgression justices. This is holding power to announce okay. You can make that argument. There's some truth to that but if you're going to have justice with no due process you just make cassation's your and that can destroy someone. That's the end of it. There is no process for judy getting so there's no due process. There is no process for forgiveness there. There's no way people can simply apologize then be forgiven. Now people go through the motions of a maoist style formal apology but that doesn't mean that the reputation is restored. They're still destroyed and left by the wayside. A common were now is they're canceled. They are cancelled rare erased. They no longer exist so if you have justice us with no due process of no forgiveness no mercy and as as you mentioned of forgetting you save re-getting there and no forgetting that is very inhumane society. There was recently anecdote. I heard <hes> ruth bader ginsburg the justice of the supreme court in the united states with <unk> bitter ginsburg said when she got married long ago her future mother-in-law told her she said you know in a marriage. It's it's good to be a little deaf. It's good to not hear certain things because you have to just ignore a lot. If you're gonna live together where all imperfect we all all make mistakes we all have flaws you have to be able to live and let live and one of my great fears is that while democracy has always been difficult social social media has made it that any flaw and not even a flawed anything that can be misinterpreted as a flaw will be magnified will be prosecuted and is imagine imagine intermarriage if you married someone who always interpreted everything you did in the worst possible way and always called you be completely insufferable and that's the way life is becoming in some corners of our society. We should start to draw your clothes but let me just put it to you this way. This issue of forgiveness seems to be incredibly important bolton. I do think it's a judeo christian concept identify writ large in any of the other great belief systems. I think he's being critical mission freedom but we've not reached the point where we're very unforgiving and social media which were both a green a wonderful to use wisely but it's being used very unwisely means. You can't forget now either the very point you just i might you make a mistake. Use is something that the mob thinks is unacceptable. You get cancelled. It can't be forgot so you have neither forgiveness nor the capacity the forget and move on yeah. No i think that's right. I would just say that while i'm not a scholar world religions there are so many elements of buddhism that about non-judgmental is about love. There are a lot of similarities. I found between buddhism and christianity in particular. I i'm not sure about your statement about other religions. Although it certainly is true than the judeo christian christian tradition forgiveness is extremely important. It's one that does let's face. It lies at the heart of the formation of western democracies. It's now being rejected on. I think they're hard questions to be honest with you about with paying very big price for the the i think we are because if one of the most important goals especially for progressives in recent years is creating more tolerant it open diverse society. That's the goal that i go that. I support but if you're going to do that you darn well better preach and teach and encourage people to be more forgiving to have a thicker skin. They're going to be the more diversity you have. The more misunderstandings they're going to be that has to be the case and if if you create if you increase diversity versity while also lowering the bar for what counts as offensive you're guaranteed eternal conflict well done. Thank you very much indeed economics guy and i think it should should be on every parents <hes> christmas present list. It's brilliantly argued brilliantly researched. It's absolutely on the money as i see it as we try in our own wise in our own places to turn things around and his terrifically readable and accessible so thank you very much indeed thank you john. I would just urge viewers. If you wanna get a taste of the book and see variety of videos and materials you can use go to the coddling dot com tom. We have a right of materials there <hes> and otherwise i thank you. I always enjoy talking to you. I always enjoy seeing the way you dry out ideas from my own writing and apply them to society in politics a thanks for having me on again well. Thanks for their contribution. You made by coming to this country talking so i've been warning us. We take warnings on board. You've been listening to conversations with john anderson for further content visit john anderson dot net dot a u.

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