19 Episode results for "Joel Anderson"

Joel Anderson

The Right Time with Bomani Jones

50:02 min | 1 year ago

Joel Anderson

"<music> the ladies and gentlemen welcome to the right time. My name is bomani jones. Thanks for listening on the e._s._p._n. Where have you listened you pike as raiders reviewers. Give us five stars. You only give us. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time a week where we do the interview here joining us now from slate used to work here yeah. I can't say that no more joel and isn't as john. Is that sure i'd say the state of it does say cities representing what it is you. You know using guys attribute with me because i like like i'm only kind of from houston. I mean you can't you cannot think so. If you wanna claim houston oh i claim i claim thing about houston to explain this to people houston so damn big. Oh yeah that your houston from over there by ship channel well. That's what my pops from south style city okay. That's still to another world. Oh yeah wouldn't there's no reason to going to north side from latency and there's reasons to go to the south side. South side is believed that the north side is an entirely different municipality. Yeah i mean it's just like y'all version. Houston wasn't really ours are wearing near after world weren't near drumsticks on sticks people from houston we talk yes and also it's is particularly with black people. Oh right rest black houston and south houston yes right. That's what it is. I'll park sunnyside third ward. You know although the black neighborhoods that are on the north side little treacherous then look. I had to learn learn alert. I was like oh. I wonder all good where we can't afford. Doesn't that's no that's not homes yeah. I was like oh okay all the neighborhoods. You heard about that you you know. I didn't realize that was with north. Korea was okay studio. I guess count to order a little bit a little bit but i'm wayne north y'all. That's not. I mean i'm like i'm. I'm at the fringe of what you can call houston. I'm that's what the address is right and then. I didn't go to school in houston using ain't nobody. I'm gonna say like. I don't know how to explain this to you. You don't know i mean you know about those schools because you know about houston schools in houston southeastern wherever because you're from houston yeah like nobody knows about like soccer. Now i mean that's what i was supposed to go right. I got no concept of that. Put the cats in the league at least they used to. I don't know what they were good. Actually i think they want to stay championship a couple of years which is crazy no way i'm sorry saaf air nasty crate after craziest on the world meters oh south wednesday championship because affairs i like it. I mean i mean they didn't even get the brothers and no in that area well it was with there were brothers within that district right but at the time i was there. It seemed like it was like no. That's not what we want. Y'all go. Yes jersey. Jersey village falls came. Yes well. That was the whole flip up it play it right. I was like gave them. A nikki. Okay sees a lot about him. I think that's pronounce mona kate and they would just mispronouncing his name yeah yeah his dad worked at prairie view and they always their monarchy and they get on t._v. and you'll be carrying. What's your name call you. Oh oh yeah wherever majel jobs working on podcast now on the two pac and biggie killings right and so we don't talk a little bit about that. I want to start though with you with what may be your favorite topic in the world. Oh what's if anybody followed jones. You recognize the joel. Anderson's claim claim to fame is that it was his nineteen eighty-eight joel. It was deemed the fastest ten year old in america. I was rolling before. I need to know like did you like did you arrays to be the fastest ten year old in america so what i'll explain what i'll explain is that was i want my region okay which was all a texas basically and so i went to the national's it isn't it isn't a hundred and so then i went to the national's false started started in the prelims in then didn't get to actually win gold but would happen is that i'd run the fastest time in the nation oh <music> so they sent me they actually they literally sent me a certificate. He saying you know you had the fastest one hundred and my co workers at the time it buzzfeed didn't believe me and i had that most hailu mail. I ain't gotta lie. You know let me five used the fog a little bit j._d. Gee win championships. I know i could have beat that. You saw jason johnson for shreveport co back. I could have got <hes> undecided. Tell you now that i do from shreveport. Louisiana had to go through things that you can't relate to eighty two hat once i moved to shreveport. I'll hold that's right you did. She wore a couple of years. Yes okay man where it probably more than four stores one. I'd over the actually i'll tell you gave hey. We're gonna do that thing where we play the music over. Thank you for your patience a representative from the bright time we'll be with you. Shorten your current. Whole time is fifteen seconds. That's not quite like every city enjoyed it as not atlanta. Swears is the second largest city in georgia every single one of savannah augusta columbus making they all the second largest city george. Oh yeah and it's probably only sunlight lawrenceville or something like that. That's that's real talk about california right at the top five cities in california all l. a. san francisco ugly a lie and say something like san. Jose's quietly huge this. I think is one of the creatures population is crazy. Yeah yeah no. It's one of those but he also you play college football. He played at t._c._u. I don't talk about that much because i didn't go as well. That is actually not thought about that talk about you. Actually were a division one athlete and you bring up tallboy budget. I didn't really rack up no stats. There's nothing really to talk about because he's obviously i was there for a couple of years. I don't you know i i'm proud of the fact that i wanna college team that like you know i got to experience <hes> and it did teach me some things namely. I didn't love football that much but <hes> yeah it didn't go quite as well. I remember i did ask you as they did. You was gay passing there. You were there. You're like as the defense coordinator he's. He's the first person to tell v._w. Golf pro southern others. He told me he told me. I'll never forget because <hes> is when the the coaches that have brought me pat sullivan. They got fired so dennis. Francioni was a head coach in bringing in this new offense. Gary patterson was defensive coordinator and he ran the spring drills and so <hes> i'm out there to struggling. <hes> you know just i mean i'd never forget ladainian tomlinson looking at me. At a distance this is because of how bad i was doing and he just looked at me. Dislike just shaking his head and gary. Patterson told me he was like man. You got feet like a like a like offensive linemen and and i was like you're running back running back. I mean you know i wouldn't have a lot of wiggle out run at you. Say i might not be able to get away from me and houses like okay like i'm not you know like. I never thought that i was like i felt like an athlete. They can compete on the division one level but i was like oh. I'm not gonna gopro like and i'm not i don't like this so like why would i keep doing it. Yeah hurts yeah. Oh it's really it's really painful man like i'm. I'm messed up just a little and i didn't even play yeah. I always wanted that. I was like like do you still like how much do you fill it now. Oh man. I have a bad neck and back. I have back problems stuff. My legs sneer thing fine but like neck back problems all covered back from college football. That's that's getting banged up in practice. I mean all the hidden in practice with you. Under scout team like i would uh-huh because you say they needed like that but when you recover into college football for here idea joy vita the rose bowl to be like you know i had to read out his field. Oh man like i mean <hes> do that. It actually every college stadium. I come across. I gotta run across. Just see what it's like and roses some surreal. You look at that on t._v. Like that is the college game growing up like it just seems like it splashed in sunlight and it's beautiful. I like i was there and i got looking to early man. Nobody you know see me die out there thirty yards surprise. You may take no video i should have. I'll still moving a little bit yeah all right. We'll be back in the mid with more with joel anderson but first guys summertime is here. You've been breaking out that baseball cap afford day at the beach or the ballpark to hide thinning hair. You may not have to anymore. Don't sweat hair loss this summer do something now while you still can sixty six percent of men lose their hair by eight thirty five like me and yes that is a big problem why sit there and do nothing about it when they can turn to medicine and science well. There's a solution in its for hymns dot com. It's one stop shop for hair. Loss skin care and other well into supplements. Permit hymns is helping guys be the best version of themselves with licensed positions in f._d._a. 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We've mentioned briefly that you're gonna do pack as late on the two-pack in big killers one of these that a segue into my internet last couple of days oh man i know i know you. You are bad for you know you and i we follow each other for a while now so you've watched the evolution of me on twitter and i'll really get into if people like that no more. I'm kind of out of the business of fighting widow. You don't do you any good no no. I'm not like i'm not who i was in two thousand nine nine at least two other people therefore it's like okay. This isn't worth it. I don't feel like fighting. Everybody you know and sometimes you just wanna say what you think about something without having to get all this input from everybody. Nobody else yeah man out of business but the list came out a couple of days ago and this is hilarious. The ultimate okeydoke right guy just puts up a random list of the top fifty rappers right the hey joe biden number three didn't have scarface didn't have chuck d right didn't have k._r.'s one all right and look. I just think this this is an interesting observation. We have about the same age care as one. We were younger was absolutely on the list of maybe greatest rap of all time i'm he was that when he was in i'm going to get you suck amass sound like he was a legit celebrity. Like you know pioneer the artful you could not do one of those lists with al que are as one in your top. Three forget about utah. Fifty couldn't have been your top three now. He's like completely forgotten and so. I just made the point. I'm just like oh man this. Do will eat your favorite mc alive because any i would argue that there's a better like park. Rapper has one running a battle rapper like whatever what at the most essential form care as one is that dude dude ahead everybody popping up the wadi lose about anneli best is arena somebody that there was like four years old that was going. Apparently this idea has propagated itself out here in the streets and people out here really thinking and nellie was in k._r._a.'s ones facing a port to wrap hands a care as roma's like our dog. You got me right. I mean the thing is is that what they think is what is rarely comment about like a lot of new to the game rap fans that they think the record cells determines who the victor yes right in like so by that standard yeah i mean i guess if you want to argue that nellie so more records fine but like you can't argue that he had more of an impact on the game and you can't argue that he can out rep. He actually tried to come k. R. as one cares wayne came back and crushed him with the problem was it was against nellie right like nobody really cared. I heard right eight. Oh but somehow that nellie one right i mean you know and the thing is is that even monk in that time like people did not take nelly seat like hollywood's a top selling artists but nobody took him seriously as a rapper here. It was the theme throughout his music joe like you. All may not think this is real hip. Hop this type of thing and whatever but this is we'll do and like that's fine people iraq with that but like to take to say that he like out wrapped care one to one like i mean that is asinine but that's i mean. That's has children man. I hope that children like right. Nobody over over thirty five hoax that whole right you know what nearly as though he's the first dude ever limited drive the we was like now we just going to let you know what i mean to be like. Okay see. I'll just let nellie paint m._c. Hammer and went through a bra gets funny. Did you see the chuck. D talked about mc hammer. He loves them. He loves and i'm just like you'll like not only was m._c. Hammer had to go through like some real like. I know you know like i'm an entertainer. You know like this is a different version of hip hop or whatever but like him. It was a gangster man. It was l. I mean the clip of big boy. Thousands run up on jalan brought over here. They have have came back the funky headhunter which none of us trying to hear. I mean little. Did we know that fake hammer was actually the dude in hamilton right right real. Thank you know the a._f._c. starts story right way. So you know there are base. Did the word to your mother. You know all the hammer hammer took that it as an insult to his mother by hammer was like y'all talking about my mama so hammer wanted to kill them and when i say kill i mean kill he had like legit. Oakland sued the bright so at the american music awards the word got out yo. Oh hammas goons coming for you right come with our base and our base cats don't know what to do so what they did to save them. They got them seats but michael jackson thousand russell did russell sims they do they look the way too. We can keep you safe is keep you by michael. Jackson passed canine. Ain't nothing happened to you hammer me. The halo road would death-row and it was like not out of the realm of his worldview. You know what i mean. He was was like you know. Shook respected that do for sugar respect you said something about hannah's gangsta chucks point about hammer always easy just like i don't know how we deem <unk> hamid sell out with hammers. Doing all these black people do right. That was his that was his argument was in his book. We're talking about twitter but he was always all the hammer program. Look i wouldn't want to have a program. Oh ground just to be clear. I you know what i loved him. Really as a kid i went and saw hammer performance to summit in one thousand nine hundred ninety one and i think vanilla i was on was on it too and i mean those dues perform like you might not argue that they were rappers but they were performers right and like i mean. I think that there's a role for them hip. I mean hip hop you so is dancing as a part of the you know i mean it was at that time there was kind of i think hammered doing hammer once he got into high steady. That's been cats all right. No komo dancing rapper for real y'all here dancing no more dancing in the dance stopped and they're big daddy kane dauler in your force meaning to all of this l. dancing you know the wildest thing is jay z and big daddy kane the same age. Oh my god that was crazy right because he ought to know where big daddy kane was gone man. I mean he like after the really like ninety five ninety six. We does not before even that. I would argue man. Yeah i mean i was bumping big aka in middle school in a row he was doing like the hot button highschool came along and all the chronic and everything came out he was done. We had we you try to flush him out big daddy kane of site and gets thrown out the game. Also big mccain was old school rapper by the time big out. Yes you know what i mean like. It was like okay like like they've passed a b. K. crowned at this new dude like those two years ago. Would you know i think i i. I think that is in part. What happened though to k._r.'s was biggie right. Take care as one was care as one was a gangster but then he was the conscious dunes who is like the conscious gangsta wrote these like y'all just because they don't mean that you know. I don't know what's going on in the world. Outright biggie was like just gangsta. Don't mean i'll be at the clue. Don't mean i can't be fly ladies to in the gangster wit completely in that direction right like the conscious gangsta you have guys like kendrick lamar who talk about gangsters and also be like on a conscious kicking nozzles connect- you know in that same type real but the conscious gangsta like killer. Mike is kind of like the last of the gangs yeah absolutely as i guess 'cause like there's no money in it right and that's what so much like. It's hard to sustain a career. If you don't like make party hits bank like other people other people besides backpack heads had like music for you have a career now rab we the gangsta is not nearly as interesting as the gangster used to be back today all right. I mean x clan you. Don't just roll up on you. More of we need more crackpot religion ravil so much better when we had cried poverty. I don't you think oh man. I mean all that five percents for like every saying i mean i whatever happened to the five percents. Is it okay. The only rapper you ever hear talk about. Louis farrakhan is j. j. latronic now. Yes that's right. I mean i think maybe people were kinda. Got onto like okay. Maybe we shouldn't overall. It's a it's a wrap on that like it was funny because you know we begin to think that the views responsible seventy percent of wickedness in the world is how did you calculate that. It had to get out of there and everything and i'm like yo. Y'all shout now farrakhan two years ago this so maybe you don't you from texas. Yes i'm not i didn't understand the jewish thing in that way because there's not a lot of their would not try and skopje chinese playing house house like i didn't understand like the fair guys. I don't know what you're talking about. Real you live in the same unclear right. I knew one literally early one or two people growing up like i'd had no idea like i came to find out later that there's a kind of jewish par town and he was into the exorbitant belair your mylan yeah okay yeah okay. We didn't think that would have moved there. There would catch like with the fair kind of stuff like yeah yeah. What's going on here in church so i don't have any of this. You know like i got no beef over what happened. You know what that is right but i had no idea oh. It was just totally foreign to me. You know what i'm saying is like oh y'all what is the beef about. I don't understand like at that time. Tehran had his little renaissance and early to mid nineties and it was like okay and he's talking about black empowerment. Okay you know this juice. That's that's crazy. I don't know what he's talking. What about right now as you get older. You say oh. That's a little bit more cities. That's wrong. This series just really bad yeah. It's like okay so now so maybe people got onto that like rappers select me. We should start talking about islamic public but it's interesting because like in real life like i am aware that anti-semites exist yes but i don't think i've ever met one one right. When i got bit into conversation and been like oh my god you have to stop never met that person but apparently he's everywhere. Oh yeah absolutely. I feel like that's definitely like a new york d._c. Thing when you're saying like remember when those cats win would covington catholic high start and i was like oh the lights at the yellow house okay. I guess that's like that's where it comes from. You know these as interested about new york of the blog israelites at bates jokela twitter was about blake israelites out. No if you know what i'm talking about no why folks in new york absolutely nobody they camp out over nearby town square so mike they've all come across them and i'm like oh wow that's uh-huh sherry talking about israelites at one twenty fifth and lenox down there white foals were oh you gotta go to believe. I believe the problem to be able to keep coming. I know i guess like they never go really run up on you. They just don't insult. You know what i mean. Yes so the amendment rights black purple leather with the you know man. I mean and they look like a vendetta like black of assam like you know what i'm saying. It's just like okay which woody allen to for real what is it. What is this would is the relationship to god he explain to you but i also wonder like what exactly the chain of events is in your own life and to make you be like off which all right and how much does it cost by augier begin to just be hot outside of climate change. Where do you by saying. I mean not on time fast. Oh you know i guess maybe you see somebody else. Where did they like nine. Gives your life like they don't seem to be wearing this stuff. So is there like a black israelite outlet. Oh you gotta you gotta storefront somewhere over man. Do i was at my bar the other day and like all of a sudden. It's like you just see how it happens. Bob going to prison it had he was just like yeah man. You know you know how they say that. There's <hes> one gate heaven. I was like <hes> yeah auden go to turkey the other than i went to catholic and he's like yeah so actually that's twelve. He shows me on his phone. He's like the twelve different tribes on. I was like oh. They got got you to now to talk a whole lot of those gets. They needed something than they did make their lives better but they are not being our line. Oh they just i mean they've got structure now. They've got purpose. Yes which is absolutely value yes but yes. I don't know if i'm really going to be into that and we can't be half was the hang out. If you keep talking about islam we can all point to all these people whose lives had been greatly impassively impacted by the nation of islam yes but man just don't tell me about right. I'm not your audience. We agree on a lot of things in terms of like you know structures america whatever but like anything outside of that you know he's going to go to the mosque about that. Yes i've read <hes>. Have you read david remedies book world about ali. Oh no i have not it's worth checking second. That's interesting hearing a li like talk about the things that he had learned. Many sounds like every other college student who was picked up some new new religion gone away. Did they come back and he'd be like don't what right right. I got understand. I mean it's it's totally it. It takes you a while because actually i thought about. I say this in public housing high school out of school okay. I was like i don't know man. I i want to go do the things i was off air con- speaker t. s. nineteen ninety-three child keep in mind but i was like you know and then it's just like ooh has absolutely nothing to do with like actual is like well. They are the black scientologists. Oh beg if you think about. It's a very similar setup. Scientology's got levels has got like all this stuff. It is very similar to scientology. They just don't have nearly the real estate footprint around right right you know oh. The scientologists got to set up on one twenty fifth in third. Do they really ask like if you go in one thousand nine hundred and go towards f._d._r. And look on the right you will. We'll stumble upon the scientology. That's how we should've known. They was coming. He's got an early early getting bigger. Who is there for them clinton clinton because that's that's to say i need to look at here but at least clinton got deer. That building was already there scientology and i don't know who's going in there. I don't no no if if they have been able to sprint to the locals because it's not like the scientology is on the street right. One hundred twenty fifth street has anything it is people trying to pitch you on religion. Ooh an on the street right right right yeah. I didn't even know they had a presence so you know i used to live i didn't i didn't know that they presence over this scientology man then over here. Everybody was coming to harlem now man. I guess we all welcome but <hes> we started talking about draft list. You and i both written will you. You still do more to not do but we both been writer. Guys people don't understand man. The list is cash money in this business and people fall for the list every single time. It's just like i mean that list in particular such particular troll because of the the button thing yet. I was like they were trying to get people say negative things about joe biden to make that list and then make joe biden right getting started but yeah i mean like i mean i worked at buzzfeed like that is the place there was no realistically you know <hes> bleacher report that that was how they got its foundation doing list. I mean it's really it is irresistible like people it's one way that you know that you can get attention and penetration ration- with a particular audience. I resisted this last list right our existing because i was just so obvious to me what was going on and i had never heard of the person who put it out it right right and that's what my new things now. Is that like if i don't know who you are right then i just can't invest but so much rain what is the ebro put out his list any yeah j. cole over rock. You and i could not resist at that point lead tummy scarface on it just like no no who you are mayfield disease. No female abc's just like it was off but i mean the only reason i tweeted it out because i wanted to laugh at it. I was just like come on man i i was. I did the spice adams in the car laugh. We follow him out early because i was just like come on man. This is such a evident troll. I mean i mean i guess like plausibly like the first two like they were like. Okay you kinda like okay jay. Z nas like i may not agree with that. I can make that argument then goes off the rail he which joy to joe i heard you. It was like joe camera. Yes joking represents off but come on man right n._c. Joe so polarized because people don't like joe joe dozen things that make it understandable why people don't like and then there's just people that just don't like joe for the sake of but joke rap and that's where the because the worst about something like this is it turns into joking. Ram iago made me defend joe. It's like stop you gotta you gotta disciplined by bringing up pump it up man you know what he did water that feels so now for pump it up blessing and curse song right right but but if it's also not bad it's not a terrible so he's never had another hit single right right right but he has a whole bunch of the joint on that that his solo album like the last one. I think it was like seven minutes or something like joe's like introspective and like a really good rapper. He could do it all but yeah. I mean it's like he's gerald us. They told us in all these lists always and i was like man. I'm not i'm not gonna that what this is what they pops <music> out. You know it's like it's like it's like you could do with any lists like you could do n._f._o. Quarterbacks you could be right. Tom brady all right then <hes> you know joe montana number trying terry bradshaw fred shaw number three and it's like it does it is is just enough of a troll to make people argue and that's the that's the trick you know the hypothetical list and you're the one who made it up and even your cell say terry bradshaw third you about to lose your bod writer. That's crazy uh-huh. He didn't win for super bowl for its own omit woodland high school which if you've been shreveport la it's changed. I i also think robert parish went to would lie. I think so yes also st kitts. Y'all wonder why he always look like that. Hey look man. He had he had to go through a brush. You know the story about robert parish sitting there. Oh man right yeah the basically something to come up and if i'm not mistaken in particular is wrong with this close enough the s he w made it clear that if you took robert perish everybody's taking the reason was that you will on probation right. There was something surrounding scenario's like we'll take him and his friends. Whatever sitting there you know what i mean man i mean he he his his friend is probably the second best player squad of robert. Whatever but again right they weren't and they were right. They never were one hundred percent correct correct that it was never going to be like that. Chain gives a little bit here. I wanna ask you about this. Have you seen n._c._w._a. Aa thing we're rich paul. I'm curious. What i'm going to give you my thought and i wanna see what you think so the people who haven't seen this the n._c._w._a. And i don't think this matters as much as people are making it out to but basically guys if they declare for the draft and they they tow in there now going to allow them to have agents while they do that. As part of the problem was cats were doing this. I'm testing the waters thing but in order to properly test the waters you kind of need an agent like you need to fly places. You know you need you need all those things and so now they wanted. They let them get agents. Okay coup but then they put a set of restrictions on the agent and the first one was age. You must have a college degree right at which point people are like oh. Y'all really just trying to keep rich paul at game bras early. Think here's where i disagree with a one visiting. Keep the cast. The rich paul wants not dipping toey all right yeah. I got to see what my stock you know. They're coming out right. The other part is i don't know enough about aging game to know. Rich ain't the only one out here who doesn't have a college college degree right. I'm sure there are others that are in the same position is rich where i feel like they not so much trying to stop rich as much as they tried to stop the next rich right right right that makes sense i mean i guess i would need to know like what does having a college degree actually have to do with being agent. You know what i mean like. 'cause i mean clearly they are trying to like. They are trying to keep somebody out there trying like when you whenever you do something like that. It's like standardized testing like obviously they're. They're trying to keep somebody out right and i would like to know like would net when they when they were coming up with like who who was in mind. Maybe rich paul was in my but yeah like you say. It's clearly really was somebody else that whoever comes up next and i don't know man i just the thing is is that you'd never think that the n._c._a._a. Doesn't have some sort alterior motive when they do something right is like an first of all like wheat necessitated this change like what made it 'cause. I know he said the players need rondo whatever but it was some sort of a problem before that we unaware what what they were trying to do something that makes it better for the players right because they like to do these little little anything. They look like they care but i don't understand it from the n._c._w. Problem as the point that he thinks that they're just inflating the value of a college degree right like that's that's kind of the point of i'm doing it is that you know it was like you know their their businesses. The college degrees currency and so therefore they need to say that you guys. You've got to have a college degree. You can be a coach and not have a college degree or you got well. You got to get it yeah right here. People don't know that these cats like i used to play in the league table correspondent her all of a sudden yeah right. Where did you graduate. I think it was sitting low n._c. State zone sidney lowe graduate of saint paul's college. I was gonna say with southern new hampshire figuring out quick like man that gets you in some school and you go ahead and knock out that degree that's but that's but i think that this is much more just say dishes 'gate-keeping. It's not even about one person. Pardon is not even really gonna affect anything right. That's just 'gate-keeping right. That's what i'm saying like. I don't like the pool of players for whom this is. Gonna apply like it doesn't even it doesn't even make a lot the sense that you just kinda feel like the kids that are going to do that. They don't need an agent <hes> to be honest like i i haven't seen and like generally teams will make allowances for you so if if you're really somebody that they're gonna wind up. They'll work around you. Make the work out for you. You can have somebody in your family to represent you or whatever i'm just not. I'm not sold on the idea that you even really hire an agent. If that step in the game i mean i see where can make it better but also can see where it's just sort of like a superfluous person added to the system yeah like it's it's also convoluted. I think it's just the ultimate moral of the story but i just love the idea that they just kind of like because the thing with agents that said this on here before not everybody can be an agent right but anybody can be an age. Oh yeah oh yeah absolutely absolutely what would you no actually not that. We're talking about it. You know what else i noticed in that. Is that any of the agents that are certified by the n._c._w. They have to help them with investigation says and i think that's probably is as important as anything else with it because often those agents do what you meant and you know how you get in the game so like back i just kind of feel like for the people whom this applies like it's just not even going to be a thing because the thing is they can't get players. The two players leave right and it's like whatever but they can the i'd have interrupted interactions with the agents rare four. Maybe you can get agent to start. Snitch it right now. I just kind of like. I don't think y'all understand how this is actually gonna go. Oh yeah absolutely agents are not yeah. I mean they can't afford to cooperate. I mean come on. Are you gay too gay. It'd be like when they were talking about all that tampering in the n._b._a. In the n._b._a. was like who would be checking servers thing. Everybody was like you know this tampering thing not as bad as i thought he was fifteen minutes ago right. It's like look mcmahon like nobody wants to. The only way we know that people are tampered isn't when somebody wins. Yes like no other people in the running to what i was like. That's a great point. We only know about every from the people that you're right as they were tampering but you tried to get into. You know what i'm saying. Exaggerate exaggerate right now the all n._c._w._a. Stuff at this point like i'm curious like when you were in school. Did you realize this was this was a scam. <hes> yeah yeah absolutely <hes> will for me like i thought it was great because i got opportunity to get an education right but i'm not ladainian tomlinson. I'm not a cat like lebron for whom you know. My parents probably could not have afforded for me to gonna college like that or it would have been nice. I would right yeah it would have been a a little bit more or something like that right <hes> but so but for the kids that actually have real value. You know what i mean like four or five star <hes> would ever come really. It's just like a few kids at a floating system alone sanford with only a few kids really we're talking about bringing in like this tremendous value value. <hes> demand sells the vince writings all those kind of guys and so i was like oh for those dudes. They definitely should be getting paid. You know what i'm saying. I mean how would hey if you you want to pay me. That's great but like those dudes are the ones that are driving a lot of the value and a lot of the fandom and all that sort of stuff and i was like like they don't have any. It's not even just that like they're not getting paid but they're not even getting a college experience right and you see that with the l._s._u. Locker room thing. It's just like they don't even want them boys on the other side of campus. They just want they want. I want them to do just enough to go to school and debbie over here about the football and like you can just you know once you get into system you already know i know what it is. They want me over football. They got my coast got mad at me for having a science lab one time that started at like six o'clock which meant i had to leave practice a little early. <hes> you know what i'm saying. He's like would he. Do you know i mean i'm this is like okay. I guess it was really nice school. I need these credits to graduate. You know what i'm saying but you know it was like the practice. I mean it's a very in. I would have just had to leave a few minutes early. It was like what are you doing so yeah man. I wonder what it's like. What can you let you come in there with your fancy private school education and that you try to read these books on us mcmahon dude i mean i'll never forget bug casey book as we might run best coach. It's easy you. He goes bo jackson at auburn and advertise. Did you hear about that. Oh man a lot but you know what bo jackson hated him and wrote about it in his autobiography. You bookcases food dothan alabama man he's willing to you know there's the old oh southern cat when he was in college like he's a legend and <hes> anyway. I'll never forget. I just i had difficulty. I just didn't wanna study. The playbook like football was born and by. I told him i got to college. I was like this is terrible anyway. I was having difficulty picking up a play head. <hes> coach coach coach knew my s._a._t. Score and he was like man. You could be governor. What do you know why are you so you know just like it was it was meant as like dog like book learning they helping you here. Saying senate makes a fair point but like they don't respect the n._s. Stuff it doesn't it doesn't matter to to those guys they want you to be smart football and you do have to be smart to play into excel sell a football but like they don't care about what you do in class or anything like that not knew that really really early because i mean the the major ahead like nobody else on the team major in journalism you you know what i mean. I don't go into town by you wanna majors engineer economics. Oh yeah man. I mean kinesiology that comes up so that's the one you wanted to <hes> do can you know carolina and we started like we as graduate students we were. T._a.'s and somebody raised the question like so. What do we do if we get an athlete right like immediately hip game on what could happen and all that and it was explained. You ain't getting no athletes. Don't the day you die. Get no adly. Oh yeah coach coach sees you would on your academic plan engineer and it's only like now we have. We got something else for history. You know what i'm saying. There's some history product too much for that. I thought it another school that they were like yeah. You might get a football player. Are there students getting these other boy. Oh yeah they got more days basketball man. I mean how how they go to class. I mean in the spring corrupts over two semesters yeah man. I mean like they don't have any time like if you if you want a good team i mean you make it a tournament. I don't i don't know how they how they ever managed so <hes>. It's always been. I've always known that it was a scam but you know i mean. I think you feel like you. You know a kid from a good. You know you know wealthy background and you do you. You know play polo or something like that. That's not what you know. What i mean golf then yeah probably a good deal for you but like the cats did play football and they don't really allow you to <hes> you know access everything that's on the college campus which is joining a fraternity. You're <hes> you know. Joining you know the black student union whatever like you'll get to have that experience. We'll just sitting around doing nothing. Oh man i do. I remember i'll never forget i remember house walking across campus one day back to my dorm and i saw these kids kids throwing the frisbee around on yard and i was like look at that list like do that so i never did but it looks like a lot of fun to look like we're just posting up. A significant part of college is just posting up yeah. I mean no now. Don't i mean dude got into video games but y'all we'll. We'll see each other. Oh yeah it was us. You're saying that i was like oh. I thought i knew i thought i'd play video games dues. You guys are professional also a badge in to for you. You would stray jesuit t._c._u. integrated. You know you met some people. You've been around town and stuff like that but i still imagined that you got to this guy like oh. These cats are from different. Oh oh my god man. I mean you know it was a coach shock. It definitely was like i mean how i say. This show talk boy his name on it. I'm gonna put his name is dude on our team are no forget. We went one night to best buy to bed. Then you had to go back cassette single mkx set single. He came with me forever and his role with me. I was one of few people in my car with me and <hes> he can he come back part and <hes>. I just left my car around like this is on and he was just like don't do that don't do that. I was like what was going on. He's like don't do it so i just went back. Lucky that semester. He got kicked off off the team for stealing out of people's cars you yeah okay. He was really trying to help me. Free free state's doc best buy boosted. No no no no. I've been with cast like that before. I mean man those dudes. I mean this dude up. There was on the team to still imprison imprison. Now <hes> it's yeah it was kind of a little bit of a cold seven. I mean i grew up in most yes. Some dudes are really like well why essay though you grew up with most city but i imagine somewhat in a life where a lot of people were keeping you away. This certain things people yes. Did you get to play college football and those guys people are glad they're there to keep them away from certain people wherever they are also is way the certain people that somebody was trying to keep you not all interesting to be clear but it's always a couple oh yeah because because football could definitely be the thing that like a sports could be the thing to keep you away from like you know the folks trying to keep you away for then those dudes. Some of them do the athletes and and i play with a few of them and he's like oh. This has a real gangster santa like just don't don't mess with that do because you know what i'm saying like he could be selling whatever you know what i mean and like you know that was different football team. Eighty-five people is always going to be like like just a couple and i think t._c._u. Got to that point like baylor people about baylor is if you're that dedicated to baylor be good at football. You can't turn dudes down own right there only so many people good football that won't come to bail. You can't be turned into madonna. You don't have to do with football. That's how you wind up. You look around here like dog. What is going on as i just do kinda rough man how you get here but you know what's funny is that when i was at t._c._u. We had a run of due to get arrested so much that we would known as texas criminal universe. We played s._m._u. In ninety seven at cotton bowl in like s._m._u. Had like all these signs about texas criminal university and in fact. I'll never forget we. We want a game that year. Coach was like man. Don't mess up. Don't mess up tonight just enjoyed win. Don't mess up and somebody went and got arrested for d._u._i. At night and it was in a paper the next morning and i was just like you know man. You know it's it's i mean the thing is is that criminals eight boy eighteen to twenty four years old man. I you mean the line between your criminality and just being dumb. Kid is really thin anyway. You don't i mean so you might just end up doing something illegal you know but that's also so just be boys boys but they're just like nebraska back. When nebraska lo de they were getting their collins is who's who's a catholic laws villa. They're not just not as long as i but there's a cat that killed somebody that there was a running back not brass under the car. I think it is thunder garland. Dude johnny rodgers when the husband in nineteen seventy-one johnny rodgers caught a felony charge for like sticking up a gas station at different times absolutely nowhere named joe. How who else wants to go to nebraska. Nebraska figured out who were really attractive to kids. You need to get out to go way far away from wherever there for that's an oregon guy good to get in keeping with the anthony thomas went there and he's i had to get out of l._a. Monosso go. I feel like i got a whole border langston and oklahoma right black house oklahoma at home but it went there eddie toby they'd how y- ultimately wound up there. It's something happened to l._a. And he said he got his home. It was like look. I know me and you got our problems. Would if you really love me then. I'm beat in a couple of days. You go live right yeah. That's how he wound up going. That is like. I have a wave where i am as possible. You can't go back away. Eh what we got. A couple of minutes left before we go. I want you to the feels. A little bit about podcast is coming up and stay slow. Burn yeah man yeah <hes>. We're really early the process we had our first in studio interview yesterday with member junior mafia okay winning six. You'll i think everybody is interview. Sees a has tried to get stories of people heard before and <hes> like it's going to be really unique. I mean think about is like a lot. Lot of people say oh you know this is about the deaths of big a two pack but we're trying to emphasize the people as if this is actually actually going to talk about their lives and how they intersect with each other and how they were friends and like not a lot of people have talked about like that time in their lives when they were friends and like you know <hes> you know they would just seem to be heading heading in different paths and like why the the beef between them was so personal and why got heated so quickly because <hes> you know they're just <hes> you know i. I just want people to know that there's more to them how they died and so that's what we're spending a lotta time on the season on so you know we we people in studio. We got a cub a couple of interviews. That's why i'm in town today. You know what i'm saying. I didn't expect you to be here. You know that'd be a miami man. Do this sounds like a dope like opportunity to because we're at a point now where i i think it's easy to forget that not everybody grew up with this. This is a legendary story now that people know and were far enough removed from it that we you can view it would have different contexts because we're all different points in our lives right. Well you know there were a lot assumptions. There are a lot of substance that were made about two pac and biggie at about what we knew about op them right and and their lives and music that they made and <hes> you know. I thought i was like oh. I thought i knew everything there was no about it. When you read about them <hes> and just like you know the idea that you think that it was like both these camps are going each other east versus west and it was like really nothing. There was a lot more to like. You know a big win and they were never really liked trying to fight these dues. You know what i mean like. They did a lot to you know that some people may disagree with that but <hes> from what we can tell the you know they did a lot to try. Turn down the heat on that. They didn't want anything like that and you know to pacman. You know for everything that people say about him. I mean he was a really sensitive. Do you know what i mean. <hes> a really sensitive he's he's very loyal to the people that are around him and like you could see how things can escalate <hes> you know when whenever we got shot that time here in new york the first time and so yeah <hes> it's just a it was a very personal relationship and that's why the beef got the way that it did because i mean these guys were friends and like you don't win. Some people get you know that are close close and they have a fight or something like that. It can be really ugly. Hey man. I'm looking forward to this man joel anderson checkout slow-burn podcasts at slate. Now's october thirtieth draftees drop yep so we got a little bit of time. They're the fastest ten year old in the united states jeff johnson say man. I wouldn't but eh ladies and gentlemen. Thanks supposed to joining us here on the right time thing a couple of times a week. Mamane gave bassein handles everything behind the scenes. Thank you sir. We do not doing a show on tuesday. Got some gum froyo rian couple of days after that religion no more about that also remember the right time book club with mike freeman tuesday august twenty seventh. We will wrap up the books be sure to check that out tweet about it with the hashtag the right time book club thanks to our sponsor kim's and also check out the woes pot this week. He chats with blazes gar c._j. Mccollum remember subscribe at the right time rate us reviewers. Give us five dollars forced awesome inclined to think you were a hater and we'll talk to you guys a couple of days. Take it easy. Thanks checking out the right time with bomani jones podcast. You can listen subscribe on the e._s._p._n. App apple podcasts or every listen to podcasts go right time with bomani jones.

football houston joel anderson twitter texas america joe joe Hammer joe biden new york ladainian tomlinson bomani jones jay z Jersey village nebraska k._r. shreveport raiders Mike nellie
Season 3 Trailer

Slow Burn

02:02 min | 1 year ago

Season 3 Trailer

"Scandal and the impeachment of Bill Clinton for season three we're looking at another the creative lives and the tragic deaths to the core of the notorious Biaggi what's up y'all I'm Joel Anderson and I'm here to tell you about the new season a slow burn in our first two seasons we looked back at two of the biggest stories of the late twentieth century the Water Black Panther baby but for whatever reason to pock thought that that wasn't enough for him and just a few years they changed music forever they also went from people killed slow-burn season three big into POC Lhasa's October thirtieth wherever you get your podcast stores and we'll tell the stories of building a one-time crack dealer from Brooklyn biggies brilliant he was someone who just outright was like I'm lyrically superior and I'll take your girl into the son of a Black Panther who came up with the bay area he had every bit of St Bona fide that he would ever need as needed within a year of each other and their killings were never saw the worst thing that happened to hip hop from that era was keep it real keep a real got a lot of we'll take you back to the ninety s when hip hop took over pop culture rap lyrics were used as evidence of murder trials and the vice president of the United States called on record companies to pull albums I'm the faces of a deadly rivalry between two rap scenes I truly believe that pock really thought that big he tried to have him killed when big did see him and came back down took part kept ending every sentence would do because he was nervous affleck he had the smoke cigarettes just to get through it because he knew he was downloading something very devalue cheap notice do actually said that. I came to the hospital trying to kill him he got shot how is it the two of the most famous performers in the world last enemies. I was there when big into POC were friends and when it was announced it all of a sudden they have problems woke up that Dan I was like what happened.

affleck Bill Clinton St Bona fide Joel Anderson Brooklyn vice president United States murder Dan I
Joel Anderson

The Right Time with Bomani Jones

55:11 min | 1 year ago

Joel Anderson

"My name is Bomani Jones thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast rate as review of the slow burn podcast over there at slate this season they are exploring thirteen point three seven zero that's pretty impressive that's good man I there's episode of this and it kind of dolled on me because you and I are about the same age right like the midst of big and everything that it was but it's interesting to lives we knew like the big events and everything but we never knew about like all the little developments they were going to publish anyway but then it was late or whatever you know you just never got like those to be the person who had seen it so I'm fascinated by getting into this because I've read more things about I mean that's really the difficulty right because so much of it was like oh I thought I heard this happened you know before then we decided to either you thought was alive or you thought to parking right least credible thing there's nobody could absolutely I always I always thought it was la he's due to like I mean is he would probably tell you himself it has said like he did I allegation was just an indication of how much he hated yes your biggest or just wanted to awesome what she says was a coincidence right right of course of course is happy resemble Biggie in some ways he is there he utterly we are seeing we got somebody out there I mean we can be honest here how much swag must you it'll be the coolest dude out there oh had to have all the swag like I'm the work inspiration but you know what it's just he was famous they're like yeah this dude was standing out on everybody knew he was he was the May I swear you can drop the camera with on this Nice coochie sweater and you can Rowett shores and other stuff and camera have Jodi out here singing. R&B dressed like the cats on the block big except they wouldn't have been like cold right on it that way right back yes you know what I mean like I mean these are not dudes are people that we think of like total the people are going to do with them no matter what you know I have to look they don't have to abide by some sort of conventional combing there's no nice way to really put it but you know that this is a part of the as you know what I'm saying but yeah no it's it's tough you don't want to say it out loud but we know we a record label executive look at all the puppy had it been like puffy it's like man what how big is he how is he is he heavy d also gives us to the quad studios shooting was shot and not killed right like this before we get to fifty cent and everything that happened there not only by five times lived until it's not quite clear on why he did that some people would say off performance side that maybe he even said himself up to get shot in hoping you know that it would even if you don't think that like even if you were inclined to think that you how it would go over showing up after getting shot it doesn't change the fact that performance art certainly it does not change the fact that the do guy shot oh before solve and I'm very curious how that trial would have gone over now because that's another one where there was a measure right like once we get to this point and that's when we started learning the names right that's when we start hearing the the reason we talk about to pock in twenty nineteen the way that we do is because of what happened that day music for the rest of his life he's out and then yes it's like I feel like you I'm invisible bra you know what I mean and so he was after that he was unleased right blessing occurs getting out yeah go into studio everyday he's broke he was bro is crazy he's got all these lawyer bills in like we talk about it in the podcast like he had all coordinator for legal defense because he he had he had so many cases that they oh I mean he went up to the US brothers you know what I'm saying he he stood up sober I mean man they stick with the which I mean really should burnish his legend he shot at undercovers or something like that but he shot at him and the charges didn't stay right they got drop that was the case that caused them the least trouble all the cases right like if you take another that was the case yet to do it he attack the Hughes brothers he had to view do the math on that two pods died in nineteen ninety six so we go seemed the Macgregor's mark gay but he seemed like so old and forever back has we sort of take it for granted because like you like to pock is I mean that's an indelible part of my life an oh I mean dude well first of all you know the the Tattoo on his back that the cross so like he has connections to Houston like yeah man people down there you know people ask me it's not only were they they were just trying to argue with you about that Oh they WBZ might be performing in Houston and she was like now I'm GonNa show up it was pretty good like I couldn't relate to that level anger I didn't have a world had treated because he was not a thug by nature Sam that's that's sort of a role he took on later the quad city shooting we got a little audio from the pack right now let the people here love what he wrote up to the eighth floor then dragged himself to the studio where he was supposed to meet with little bleeding the room was filled with New York hip hop luminaries they'd heard there's held there by the cops to puck was confused upset maybe it had been hastened Jack Maybe the men in the studio knew who done it and weren't into defend to park and if you see that footage you see us come past police so how we try to set you up and we came to hold you down aspect is a theme that a Lotta people although they have the utmost respect for two packing and it didn't make any sense and he's the reason he spotted up for basically if you were biggie and you're like dude all I can say is that I didn't do it right I there's nothing that biggie had something to do with it or knew something was going down and didn't try to after that people were probably in shock they come into the studio shut up and it's like Oh man this is piece of it and then yeah I mean you know he had some time away went to prison and not long after that and you know what I mean so it's plausible that biggie and puffy would having AC- man to show up at night like getting away because he's Jack Right there's other studios how about we just take the night all or biggie smalls and you just like Amen I did not do this is there anybody who's it wasn't him but to pack was convinced that it was them in we're talking about degrees of involvement because stood to the side didn't give him a heads up and that's like a much tougher thing to parse it like the bigger than than to to pack though I think in the people that like to pack you can get a sense of like what about them in the same way yeah that is interesting like way look at it because also big big from the class wise is it seemed that big grew up in a way the to park did not oh you're like so they had a chat a pretty good job living in a nice house how school kids went do but like no biggie came from a pretty decent background he didn't have this sort of

Bomani Jones Rowett shores Jodi
Ferguson Revisited: The Worst Night

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

23:29 min | 4 months ago

Ferguson Revisited: The Worst Night

"This episode is sponsored by Charles Schwab. No matter what tomorrow brings some things won't change like Schwab's commitment to see the world through clients is. That commitment is why Schwab is always here for clients with clear guidance and committed service to help maintain focus on achieving long-term goals. So, whatever happens today? Twelve remains invested in you. VISIT SCHWAB DOT COM to learn how Schwab is ready to help. Looking at the images that have come out over the last few weeks, images of police violence in protest. It's impossible not to think similar. They are to pictures. We saw just a few years back in Ferguson Missouri. Only this time Ferguson is everywhere. And now, journalists who cut their teeth covering the killing of Michael Brown are in positions of authority at National News Organizations. They are helping shape. The conversation Americans are having about equal justice and police brutality. Because of all that we wanted to listen back to an interview I did last year with slates Joel Anderson. In Ferguson! He found himself in harm's way targeted by the police. It's an eerie echo of the images. We're seeing right now. Journalists being arrested on live television teargassed. astral to come on the show and tell me what was like on the ground in Ferguson. I asked him to tell me about his worst night. One No, before we start. This episode has been pretty rough language in it including a racial slur. We've kept that language intact to preserve how people felt in the moment. GonNa Start out by saying the worst night in Ferguson is a really subjective thing. But when I asked Joel Anderson about his worst night. He knew exactly what I meant. You summed it up in this one tweet on your timeline. I cannot read aloud, but maybe you would. Oh. Is that the one with the slur yeah? Joel was a reporter at buzzfeed back then he just went in to cover the reaction to Michael Brown's death. Yes, sent this tweet. I. Remember I was in a hotel room. Watching the press conference at finally gotten home and I tweeted out. Pardon me and my language, but I've never felt more like a nigger than I did tonight. Joel flew into Ferguson, expecting to write about a community and recovery. A few days before he got there, a gas station have been set on fire in the wake of the Michael, Brown shooting. And by the time he arrived that burnt out lot was filled with kids dancing. I remember filming that kid break dancing and that was in the parking lot. The burned up parking lot of that gas station it had like. It was it was sort of surreal is almost corny. His this hope this youth that's dancing for joy in the burned out remains of you know Ferguson and This represents something and everybody was really happy and there was music. And people cooking out and people were still protesting and no justice. No peace would it just felt like we were GONNA? Really turn a corner and I just. I don't think that going into that evening that. I could have foreseen it it. It would have gotten as bad as it did. So you had this feeling like okay, we're turning a corner. When did you know? That wasn't true. Something happened the second and I wish I could. Remember exactly what it was, but. It just like. All of a sudden. The anger took off. For Joel. The worst night was August seventeenth, two thousand fourteen. It was a Sunday. Video from earlier in the day shows how the tension was beginning to build in this state, young men surround a cop car. That's trying to pass through west Florescent. Ferguson's main drag there yelling slurs tapping on the glass. One of them just follows the cops as they roll down the street. He's got his middle finger up. And then a protester approaches tries to move these guys gently away from the police. He's encouraging them to express themselves, but do it safely. At the same time there were kids on the street. Holding handmade, signs and chanting. was watching all of this keeping his eye on the clock. Curfew is set for midnight. Around nine, he ducked into the local McDonalds to charge charges phone. So this is like one place. People can get food in a sort of a community gathering spot. They had chairs and there. It's clean and you can get a big Mac or whatever so anyway. I, just went in there and I was like man. My phone's dying. I need to charge it up. Because you know. Every night was basically the same for me. You know I'll be out. Take pictures, you know record some audio. Need for whatever story that I'm going to do, and I was like I need to charge my phone. Go in there. And then all of you just hear. A crash. Something literally went through the window. Something through the window window smashed. Brooke loose and people started running and taking off. WHO's just like? Oh? I went to find out what it was right. Reporters Instinct Yeah right I'm just like what was was going on it. Nobody could tell it was because it was very You know chaotic I. People Trying to get the hell out of there and I remember walking outside. Walking or running and there was a kid on the ground. They were telling somebody to get milk to clear the gas out of his eyes, and that kid was an agony. I'll never forget that. In as I'm there like there's police around and. I'm just like man What are we supposed to do? I thought the curfew. Is it midnight and I haven't done a lot of international traveling, but I know we do the if it happened here, type, series and I just remember thinking. Oh? It feels like I'm in another country or place. Where like we are absolutely with a lock can't protect you where there's there are no. Jolted through his options I. There is his rental car parked in front of the McDonald's, but when he went back to get it, he realized he was blocked in. Next option leave on foot. But. The police were throwing smoke bombs and tear gas. So we asked to call for help that COP meant I just. Again like it's. It's naive I'm a journalist or whatever and you'd think that there's some sort of protection for you and he's like my advice is get the hell out of here. So. That's what Joel tried to do. He walked straight down the middle of West fluorescent. The sound of the street that night was deafening. A line of police vehicles was forcing protesters down the road firing flash grenades. But at the other end of the block. Joel says online of cops was pointing their guns right at him. He felt boxed in. So you're literally being pushed towards a line of officers who are armed, yes. In the coming down the street at us, the police that does gradually moving everybody back moving the crowd back and people are running back in. Panic and you know they've got you know. The tear gas canisters. Come in got flash bonds coming at US, we sound you sound really calm describing it now, and you're talking about how like again videos getting tweets the in the moment. Couldn't felt like that. You know so. Yes, it felt terrifying, but also This is gonNA sound stupid. I didn't and maybe this is just the way. I didn't actually think something was going to happen to me. You know what I mean like I was just like well. I'm going to get out of this one way or another like I, didn't it didn't I didn't think I would die in in. You know early on at least right Actually when my phone died, I was like Oh. God, I'm really in trouble now like that. That's like when it registered to me that like. Oh! I might not get out of this. I don't have a backup plan I. Don't know where anybody is. I'm out here by myself I'm I'm amidst all these people but nobody is responsible for me but me. Yet you describe this moment of moving through protesters and and seeing police. And someone decides to break a window. Earlier and you don't do that. They're going to hurt US yeah. Yes man 'cause I mean at this point. It's dark. In the cops out of their guns trained on us, and I'm just like. How do you? Given everything that's happened tonight. What makes you think that the cops won't shoot us. You know like I was just so mad at them. Because I was like this is so dumb. Like what are you don't do that right now. Now. All all of like. Let's come back and do that another night. You know but like. Why are you doing it right now? It's already terrified. I doubt there yelled at that kid I was like man. What the fuck are you doing Stop. You have this really poignant paragraph near piece. Where you talk about the moment, you're talking about right now. And you say by now, no one cared that I was a member of the media. I was just a black man among hundreds of them. I looked at their faces scanning for anyone who might know some had tattoos or gold, teeth or extravagantly manicured beards. They reminded me of my cousins or friends that I lost touch with. I wonder what the police saw when they looked at these men. Do they bother to look at them? In their faces I wondered if the police could tell any of US apart. Yeah Oh. Man, that graph like. Reading seriously, Actually funny because exile I started. Oh Man, it. Just it just really It was just really scary, man and You know I just. This is really tough This is really tough to be. A black person, and and that sort of a situation because you just. You know that man. People are doing the best that they can like. You'd think that man you know you take. One of our eighteen year olds away from us like that. You know kid could have been anything and we don't have the right to be mad about it, you know. It. Just that night I'm just like men. All of this is happening. because. We're mad right now and people matt right now and We're not allowed to be mad. We'll be right back. Imagine that your Dole on this night. Your in a strange town. The cops are forcing you down the street. You're moving with a group. A bunch of people you don't know. You don't have a car. Your cellphone's dead. At the end of the block, police have shouldered their weapons and got them pointed at you. This is when Joel realized he needed a ride. So! I've never hitchhiked in my life like if anybody that knows me. They know I would never I would never. I don't want to ride in a car with anybody have to, but I was just like man. I don't know what I'm GonNa do, but we need to get the hell out of here. Because being stuck out here is my phone's dead. I'm not going to be doing things so I saw Stacey man. When Joel I saw Stacey. He didn't know her name. He just knew she was a middle, aged white lady with a picture of Michael Brown on her t shirt. That and she had a car. You just you never know what you're going to end up remembering in life and I'll never forget her. We so you didn't know she was Stacey Ben what when you saw this woman, why did you think? I'm just GONNA. Ask, can I. Can I get in your car? I. Don't know I I would guide. I, mean again. Just like we know from being a black man in America. You just don't walk up on a white woman in a dark parking lot late at night. That's also a no no. But I was, we were really really desperate. By this point Joel had found a friend in the crowd another reporter. They were trying to get off the street together. Desperation will make you do anything I guess and that's where we were. What'd you say to her? I. Think I just said. Can you please help? Can you help as we need a ride to my hotel? And She said get on him. Stacey yes, this is Mary Hi. You don't. We don't know each other hand Molo. Always wondered what had happened with Stacy, he meant to buy a cup of coffee. Meant if I know a bit more about our kids. In the car that night, Stacy told Joel her children have been out protesting to. Their biracial. Their Dad's incarcerated. Five years later I had questions for Stacey. About. What made that so hectic and also about whether anything changed for her and her family. So. One of my producers tracked her down on facebook. Stacey. Is that you? Doing doll of good is good to hear from you all these years later under for yes. I did I. Ever Tell you that reporter, did you did the you remember me telling you that that I worked in news or anything? Yes you gentlemen with you. Both of us like we're news reporters. They won't let us get our vehicle. Where were stranded? Like. Yeah Yeah Okay. I swear to you I like. 'cause I was still in Ferguson for you know a couple of weeks after that and I remember saying I've got to look I. don't even know if I had your number. I don't like I'm GonNa Call Stacy and thank you for saving my life. Every like I think about you like every. You know few months and I. Maybe I should give a cau-. She's doing like that'd be weird. I was like I'm not going to do that I. Don't let her go. She didn't I think you remember that to be honest so. Unfortunately it was a lot that night. Yeah Yeah that was the wall night of all of them right? Charlize us. That night there the air. The air was so cloudy in dense. There was there was people standing at quick trip, said they was just standing there, and the police started shooting them with rubber bullets in spring. Tear grass for no reason. So. I had done laundry that day, so I had a basket of blankets and sheets in the back of my van. And we couldn't get on the main floor. so I had to drive through people's yards. To get out through the back alleyway and there was a group of girls teenage girls. That had been gassed and their skin in their face was burning. So somebody was running up with milk, so I grabbed my sheets and they was pouring the milk on the sheets and rapping a little girl up in the sheets because her skin was burning. It was definitely something. To remember the site I mean it's. If. You was not there you couldn't understand. What was going on, it was something that I'm pretty sure everybody. Who was there. That night will remember. What brought you there that day. I I don't know. I can't answer that. I, don't know. I had the kids there that day? And then for some reason I felt they needed to go home. that evening, so I drove him back home. And then came back. And felt the need to be there. Why were you there so late that night? And it wasn't even really late I guess because it was like nine o'clock or something like that. So, why were you still there? It's something that. I see too often. People have been too quiet too long in this area. About the police violence. I can go back to times when myself was. Trying to move one of my cars off my children's Fathers Property and Police swarmed on us with assault rifles. And all I was trying to do was move vehicle, and it was just me and my children. And some gentlemen loading the vehicle up for be. And they had. They had my children raise their hands like they were criminals as well. the there's. Trust and believe there's amazing cops am my son's role model is a cop. His name is is rich port? But. There are cops out there. Who feel that it's Ok to abuse their badge. And people are tired of of others abusing and thinking. It's okay because they're black. We can do whatever we want that. People are tired of it. Do. You go ahead. No, no go ahead. I'm going to ask her if the Primetime Barshop. Important Person. Primetime Barbara has moved by the way. I was GONNA. Ask you okay. They did move okay. That was really, but knows will follow. Talking to Stacy and They had this easy way about them. I could see where they trusted each other that night. But after we got off the phone, it wasn't just that night in Ferguson I couldn't get out of my head. It was the story. Stacy told about her kids in the car with their hands in the air. Because! This is the story that was in Stacy's mind as she peeled out of the parking lot with Joel. A story about a cops can look at you or your family and just see a suspect. And Joel He had his own memory about about encounter with the cops. When we sat down for this interview, it was one of the. Things we discussed. I've when I tell people. There's people think that I'm lying, but it's absolute truth that I've been pulled over forty or more times about the police in my life. And I remember one night. Is Not long after I graduated from college and I was. Driving back from Houston I was working in Dallas I was driving from Houston to Dallas. It was late at night. And I got stopped in this little town called course of Canada and it's like maybe eleven o'clock at night. And the cops like come up to my car and alike. Do you mind if we search your car? Now You know Sir I would prefer. You not do that and I think. They were surprised that I knew. That I could tell them no, and so they held me like they. Just you know they. They took my driver's license. Went back to their car. They brought their dog out of their car in like just took it around my car like they would just. Because, they can't write and I was just like I remember getting home and crying that night I was just. was like. Why are these like? Why are they messing with me? I just wanted to get home. It was so frustrating. And I mean I've had situations like that happened before I mean since then, but that was one of the first times I was just like damn man when I'm out. In the streets when I'm driving around, some people don't care anything anything that you would think any of the things that you think. Make you who you are. That doesn't matter some people like some police. Officers say that that that kid looks like a suspect. And I'd never forgot that. Obviously, I'm telling you about it now almost twenty years later. Five years after the protests in Ferguson I call. Joel and Stacey to try to understand the images I remembered from that violent summer. Protesters with their hands up. Police dropping their batons. A city on fire. But there were other memories that were closer to the surface for them. Their personal histories! Stories about policing encounters gone wrong. Those weren't being live, streamed or retweeted. Each building that was set on fire in Ferguson got tallied up. The memories of the protesters and of Stacey and JOL. Those were not. It made me wonder if the most important images from Ferguson's worst night. We're the ones I couldn't see. And that's the show. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to go back and check out our whole series on Ferguson. It aired last summer. You can find it wherever you listen to our show or just click through the link in our show notes. This episode was produced back in August of twenty, nineteen by Jason Leone and even Brooks. We're back tomorrow with another episode of Wet next, catching them.

Joel Ferguson Stacey Ben reporter Michael Brown Joel Anderson Stacy Schwab US Ferguson Missouri Charles Schwab SCHWAB DOT COM Joel He buzzfeed National News Organizations McDonalds west Florescent
Ferguson Revisited: The Worst Night

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

26:38 min | 1 year ago

Ferguson Revisited: The Worst Night

"Everybody a quick word about language here at the top for the next couple of days. We're going to be revisiting what happened in ferguson missouri five years ago as we do that you're going to be hearing tape with some pretty roll language including racial slurs. We've decided to include that language because it reflects how people felt in the moment all right here. We go when you listen to the video of the very first moments moments. After michael brown was killed. You can hear the frustration that would fuel so much of what happened next. Laugh perks works later. This tape is from august ninth. Two thousand fourteen just past twelve noon michael brown in the middle of ferguson's canfield drive. He's just been shot by police officer. Darren wilson yellow caution tape is holding crowd back just barely the do you want to call it the shock that they wanted to stay unaware after this livestream brown's body stayed in the middle of the street for hours in the summer sun <hes> <music> neighbor after neighbor came out of their homes opened up their cell phones and started recording <music> paulie shocked is fully out them apartment <music> <music> bailable bergerson units respond to camp pillow. Creek is is very problematic. <hes> after michael brown's death vigils became protests protests turned dangerous. The outrage came in waves from the very start. Every confrontation was recorded but looking back at this video now it can feel like like walking into a hall of mirrors. The emotions are raw an overwhelming five years later. I wanted to slow all this tape down. Try to understand what happened in ferguson by seeing it through the eyes of three different people inside the city faraway people who saw the same pictures sided and took away very different meetings today the worst night <music> oh <music>. I'm david plots one of the hosts of the political gabfest and i'm in your ears right now to encourage you to sign up for sleep plus. I know i know you've got this message before but hear me out for second you see slate. Plus is probably the best thirty five dollars. You'll spend this year not only will you get more than thirty. That's right i said said thirty podcasts ad free for thirty five dollars but as a slate plus member you'll also get exclusive access to private cocktail hours with your favorite podcast past hosts discounts on tickets to live events around the country less advertising at slate dot com and direct access to slate writers editors podcasters into a private facebook group plus tons of extra podcast episodes and segments support slates journalism and give yourself a service. You'll actually use signing. I late plus today. Visit slate dot com slash podcast plus to sign up today again. That's dot com slash podcast plus. Thanks i'm going to start out by saying the worst night in ferguson is a really subjective thing but when i ask joel anderson about his worst night he knew exactly what i meant. You summed it up in this one tweet on your time line. I cannot read aloud. Ah but maybe you would <hes> <hes> oh is that the one with a slur yeah dole was a reporter at buzzfeed back then he just went in to cover the reaction to michael brown's death yes so i sent this tweet i remember i was in my hotel room watching the press conference at finally gotten home and i tweeted out pardon me and my language but i've never felt more like a nigger than i did tonight. Yeah yeah joel flew into ferguson expecting to write about community and recovery a few days before he got there. A gas station have been set on fire fire in the wake of the michael brown shooting by the time he arrived that burnt out lot was filled with kids dancing. I remember filming that kid break dancing and that was in the parking lot. The burnt the burned out parking lot of that gas station like it was it was sort of surreal. Almost corny was like oh. Here's this hope this youth that's dancing for joy in the burned out remains of you know uh-huh ferguson and <hes> this represents something and everybody was really happy and there was music and people were cooking out and people were still protesting and no no justice no peace but it just felt like we were going to really turn a corner and i i just. I don't think that going into that evening that i could have foreseen that it. It would have have gotten bad as it did so you had this feeling like okay. We're turning a corner. When did you know so that wasn't true. I think that something happened. The second and i wish yes i could remember exactly what it was but <hes> it just like all of a sudden. The anger took off for joel. The worst night was august seventeenth twenty fourteen. There was a sunday video from earlier in the day shows how the tension was beginning to build in this tape. Young men surround a cop car. That's trying to pass through west. Florida sent went ferguson's main drag. There yelling slurs tapping on the glass. One of them just follows the cops as they roll down the street. He's got his middle finger up and then a protester approaches tries to move these guys gently away from the police. He's he's encouraging them to express themselves but do it safely at the same time. There were kids on the street. Holding handmade signs and chanting dole was watching all if this keeping his eye on the clock curfew is set for midnight around nine. He ducked into the local mcdonalds charges phone so this is like one place people you can get food in a sort of a community gathering spot. They had chairs in there. It's clean and you can get a big mac or whatever so anyway. I just went in there and i was like man. My phone's dying. I need to charge it up. Because you know every night was basically the same for me. I'll be out take pictures. You know record some audio. Get what i need for. Whatever story that i'm going to do and i was like i i need to charge my phone. Go in there and then you just pick a crash. Something literally went through the window. Yes something went through the window. Window smashed down hill broke loose and people started started running and taken off. I was just like oh. I got to get out first of all. I want to find out what it was right. Reporters instinct yeah right. I'm just like what was that what was going on one. Nobody could kinda tell it was because it was very <hes> you know chaotic. I people trying to get the hell out of there and i remember walking outside. Walk walk your running <hes> and there was a kid on the ground. They were telling somebody to get milk to clear the gas out of his is that kid was agony. I'll never forget that in as i'm there like there's police around and i'm just like man <hes>. What are we supposed to do thought the curfew. Is it midnight right and <hes>. I haven't done a lot of international traveling but i know we do. It happened here type series and <hes>. I just remember thinking game. Oh it feels like i'm in another country or place. Where like we are absolutely where the law can protect where there's there are no joel tick through his options. I there was his rental car parked in front of the mcdonald's but when when he went back to get it he realized he was blocked in next option leave on foot but the police were throwing smoke bombs and tear gas so we asked to call for help that comment. I just again like you're naive. I'm a journalist or whatever and you thinking that there's like some sort of protection for you and and he's like my advice is get the hell out of here so that's what joel tried to do you walk straight down the middle of west florida and the sound of the street. That night was deafening. Being a line of police vehicles was forcing protesters down the road firing flash grenades but at the other other end the block joel says cops was pointing their guns right at him he felt boxed in sear literally being pushed towards a align of officers who are armed. Yes in the coming down the street at us the police they're just gradually moving everybody back like moving the crowd back and people are running back and panic and you know they've got you know the tear gas canisters come in and got flash bonds coming at us. We sound you sound. I'm really calm describing it now and you're talking about how like i was getting videos getting tweets the in the moment it kinda felt like that you know at so yes it felt terrifying but also <hes> this is gonna sound stupid. I didn't didn't maybe this is just the way i live. I didn't actually think something was going to happen to me. You know what i mean like. I was just like well. I'm going to get out of this one way or another like i it didn't it. I didn't think i would die in early on at least right <hes> actually when my phone died. I was like oh god. I'm really in trouble. Well now like that at the register to me that like oh i don't have. I might not get out of this. I don't have a backup plan. I don't know where anybody is. I'm out here by myself. I'm i'm amidst all these people but nobody is responsible for me but me yet you describe this moment of moving through protesters and and and seeing police and someone decides to break a window. Oh man i don't do that. They're going to hurt hurt us. Yeah yeah man. 'cause i mean at this point. It's dark in the cops. Have their guns trained on us and i'm just like how how do you know given everything that's happened. Tonight would makes you think that the cops won't shoot us. You know like i was just so mad at them because this is so dumb like what are you like. Don't do that right now. Now all of all of all like list come back and do that another night. You know like why are how you doing it right now. It's already terrified. I doubt they yelled at that. I was like man. What the fuck are you doing. Stop you have this really poignant paragraph near piece where you talk about the moment you're talking about right now and you say by now. No one in care that i was a member of the media i was just a black man among hundreds of them. I looked at their faces scanning for anyone who might know some of them had tattoos or gold not through extravagantly manicured beards. They reminded me of my cousins or friends that are lost touch with. I wonder what the police saw when they looked at these men. Do they bother to look look at their faces. I wondered if the police could tell any of us apart yeah a man that graph. I'm not to cry reading seriously. Lull how bad actually it's funny 'cause actually i started. Oh man it. Just it just really <hes> it was just really scary man and dan i just it's just really tough <hes> this is really tough to be a black person and and that sort of a situation because you just you know that man that people are doing the best that they can like. You'd think that man you know you take one of our eighteen year olds away from us like that kid could have been anything and we don't even have the right to be mad about it. You know <hes> hit just that night. I'm just like all of this is happening because we're mad right. Now and people are mad right now and <hes> we're not allowed to be mad. We'll be right back. What if you're abbey was an investigative reporter. I'm charles duhig the author of the power of habits and host of a new slate podcast how to how to we answer your toughest questions. It's like how do i fire about employees. Or how do i donate a kidney to my mom. Or how do i tell the perfect joke or how do i rob a bank to listen. Subscribe to how to on apple spotify or wherever you get your favorite podcasts imagine that your joel on this night. You're in a strange town. The cops are forcing you down the street. You're moving with a group a bunch of people. You don't know you don't have a car. Your cellphone's dead at the end of the block police have shouldered their weapons and got them pointed at you. This is when joel realized sized. He needed a ride so i've never hitchhiked in my life like if anybody that knows me they know i would never i would never i don't. I want to ride in the car with anybody have to but i was just like man. I don't know what i'm gonna do but we need to get the hell out of here because being stuck out here is my phone's dead. I'm not going to be doing things so <hes>. I saw <hes> stacey man when joel i saw stacey. He didn't know her name. He just knew she was a middle aged white lady with a picture of michael brown tee-shirt that and and she had a car you just you never know what you're going to end up. Remembering in life and i'll never forget her so you didn't know she was stacy then when you saw this woman. Why did you think i'm just gonna ask can i can. I get in your car. I don't know oh <hes> i i i would guide. I mean again just like we know from being a black man in america. You just don't walk up on a white woman in a dark parking lot late at night. That's also a no no but i was. We were really really desperate by this. Point joel had found a friend in the crowd another reporter. They were trying to get off the street together. Desperation will make you do anything. I guess and that's where we were. What did you say to her. I think i just said. Can you please help. Can you please help as we need a ride <hes> to my hotel and <hes> she said get on in <music> <music> stacey yes this is mary hi you don't. We don't know each other bonello. Joel always wondered what had happened with stacy. He meant to buy a cup of coffee meant. If i know a bit more about our kids in the car are that night stacy told joel her children have been out protesting to their biracial. Their dad's incarcerated five years later. I had questions for stacey a._c. About what made that so hectic and also about whether anything changed for her and her family so one of my producers tracked her down on on facebook stacey is that you doing doll of good is good to hear from you all these years later wonderful yes ask. Did i ever tell you that reporter. Did you did the you remember me telling you that that i worked in news or anything yes. You're on the gentleman cattleman with you. Both of us like we're news reporters. They won't let us get our vehicle. Where were stranded like yeah. Uh-huh yeah okay i swear to you i like 'cause i was still in ferguson for you know a couple of weeks. After that and i remember saying i've got to look. I don't even know if i had your number. I don't like i'm gonna call stacy and thank her for saving my life every every like every you know few months and i just maybe i should give a cau- she's doing that'd be weird. I was like i'm not going to do that. I don't let her go. She didn't ah the onion think you remember to be honest so unfortunately it was a lot that night <hes> yeah. That was the more side of all of them right. Show us <music> that night there the air you're the air was so cloudy in dense there was there was people staying in a quick trip said they was just standing there and the police police started shooting them with rubber bullets in spraying tear gas for no reason so i had done laundry that day so i had a basket blankets and sheets in the back of my van and we couldn't get on the main floor <unk> so i had to drive through people's yards alleyway and there was a group of girls teenage girls that had been gassed and their skin in their face. This was burning so somebody was running up with milk so i grabbed my sheets and they was pouring the milk on the sheets and wrapping little girl up in the sheets sheets because her skin was burning m- it was definitely something to remember the site the m._a. Is if you was not there you couldn't understand what was going on. It was something that i'm pretty sure everybody who's who was there. That night will remember what brought you there that day <hes> i. I don't know i can't answer that. I i don't know i had the kids there that day and then for some reason i felt they needed to go home that evening so i drove him all the way back home and then came back and felt the need to be there. Why were you there so late that night. It wasn't even really late. I guess it was like not o'clock or something like that. So why were you still there. It's something that i see too often. People have been too quiet too. Who long in this area about the police violence. I can go back to times when myself was china. Move one of my cars off my children's fathers property and police swarmed on us with salt rifles and all i was trying to do is this move vehicle and it was just me and my children and some gentlemen loading the vehicle up for b. and they had they had my children racer hands like they were criminals as well. There's trust and believe there's amazing cops a <hes> my son's role model as a cop. His name is it's rich port but there are cops out there who feel that it's okay to abuse. Their badge and people are tired of of others abusing and thinking it's okay. Hey because they're blacks. We can do whatever we want. That people are tired of it. Do you go ahead. No no go ahead. I'm gonna ask her if the primetime barshop important person primetime barbara has moved by the way. I was gonna ask you okay. They did move okay that was really but not follow talking to stacy and joel. They had this easy way about them. I could see where they trusted each other that night but after we got off the phone it wasn't just that night in ferguson. I couldn't get out of my head. It was the story stacy told about our kids kids in the car with their hands in the air because this is the story that was in stacy's mind as she peeled out of the parking lot with joel. A story about about a cops can look at you or your family and just see a suspect and joel. He had his own memory about about encounter with the cops when we sat down for this interview. It was one of the first things we discussed. I've when i tell people. There's people think that i'm lying but it's absolutely the truth that i've been pulled pulled over forty or more time about a police in my life <hes> and i remember one night is not long after i graduated from college. I was driving back from houston. I was working in dallas. Since i was driving from houston to dallas. It was late at night and i got stopped in this little town. Korea canada and it's like you know maybe eleven o'clock at night and the cops like come up to my car and alike. Do you mind if we search your car now. I'm just like you know sir. I would prefer you not do that and i think they were surprised that i knew that i could tell them no and so they held held me like they just you know they they took. My driver's license went back to their car. They brought their dog out of their car in like just took it around my car like like they would just 'cause they can right and i was just like i remember getting home and crying that night. I was just was like why. Why are they messing with me. I just wanted to get home. It was so frustrating and <hes> i mean i've had situations like that happened before i mean since then but that was one of the first times i was just like damn man when i'm out in the streets when i'm driving around some people don't care anything anything that you would think any of the things that you think make you who you are. That doesn't matter to some people like some police. Officers say that that that kid looks like a suspect and <hes>. I never forgot that. I'm telling you about it now. Almost twenty years later five years after the protests in ferguson i'd call joel poland stacey to try to understand the images i remembered from that violent summer protesters with their hands up police dropping. Their batons john's a city on fire but there were other memories that were closer to the surface for them. Their personal histories stories about police encounters gone wrong. Those weren't being live streamed or re tweeted each building that was set on fire in ferguson got tallied tallied up the memories of the protesters and of stacey and joel those were not it made me wonder if the most important images from ferguson's worst night we're the ones i couldn't see tomorrow on the show. What if the store you tell yourself about. Ferguson isn't true the the case that forever most people think about is the one where essentially we were lied to as john ford said you print the legend rather than the truth. That's tomorrow on what next when our series continues.

joel ferguson stacy michael brown reporter stacey facebook joel anderson dole mcdonald missouri officer Creek Darren wilson david buzzfeed houston
Texas Story Time and more with Joel Anderson Of Slate

The Right Time with Bomani Jones

1:01:29 hr | 6 months ago

Texas Story Time and more with Joel Anderson Of Slate

"Before we get started with today's show. I WanNa talk about the right time book club. Make sure everybody's up on that every year we do the right time book club normally. In the summer we moved it up this year and the book is the Jordan Rules by Sam Smith a look at the Chicago Bulls in their one thousand nine hundred ninety one championship season. We have got five guests to join us over five weeks to talk about the book. The first episode is April Twenty Third Jay Don Day will be our first guest from there. We will have Vinnie. Goodwill of Yahoo Sports added that. We'll have Joe Dumars or the Detroit Pistons then. Bj strongest Chicago Bulls. Were wrap it up with the author of the book. Sam Smith also be sure to tune into the last dance of behind the scenes. Look at the one thousand nine hundred. Eighty Chicago Bulls Dynasty series begins this Sunday at nine pm Eastern on ESPN. That is April nineteenth. And listen to the wrap-up podcast hosted by Jalen and Jacoby immediately following the broadcast presented by state farm. At and T. It'd be available wherever you get your pockets. Ladies and gentlemen welcome to the right time. My name is Bomani Jones. Listen to wherever you get your podcast rate is reviewers give us five stars four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater Is that a week where we have a guest on joining us. Now check out. It's late DOT COM also a great podcast. A slow burn series or the biggest to plug murders. You ought to check that out still available his name not my fault. I forgot he was also one time. The facet ten year old in the World Joel Anderson was GonNa Asia with over was of a sound. You'll get to be being once as on it. Is You some of Yoda the country? Because you eleven you gotta run against each year olds so does yeah right so I kinda easy to different bracket you know saying things change people changed so what happened. Us twelve basketball it. Because you want these two. Was your birthday like right at the line. Oh liberties meets when I yeah. I'm I'm really young compared to everybody in my class so if I come along another time when my parents were the kind of people didn't care about my education they've been holding back because they would be as my birthday's August twenty six. Oh no I'd like the youngest into class and then gasket gray and I had no chess athletics success. I mean I wouldn't have made the league. Nothing like that but I do feel like other different circumstances that may have been able to present more athletic legacy. You're right I mean they didn't even give you ten also skipping grades out. The kids even do that anymore. That's happened a lot. We were growing up. I haven't heard of that a long time. I'd say it's a bad situation though. They just really have no choice of like looking back at it. Ages would object because what happened was we lived at Atlanta until right before I turned seven and I went to what I call home school at somebody else's house right and they were just like out in look back on it. I don't know how they got books. I don't know how in the world they made the whole situation. Look but for them. It was like okay so you know how to do this. Oh you can do this okay. We can move you to something else so out then moved to Texas is a public school and I did all that stuff all right well. Above the Obama says she went in and she tried to talk to the teacher. Because they didn't want to move me upgrade is she was like look how about you. Just give them the work and I'll show and what he needs to know how to do at home right and the teacher was like Nam Nam. I teach second grade as she was like. Okay well I guess he go to. Third man see this. You know the only thing I think about because I don't think is bad for a kid occasionally but socially Ziona cousin who skipped a grade like that and I just remembered he always stripped like when he was in middle school high school. You know it just like. He never like found his foot. Yes I caught up right like the key was the cough it is up to what was going on but I will say this. Sixth GRADE LOOKED TRICKY BAY. Because life changing for everybody or not changing for me and then we moved schedule back. It was back on the schedule. Because we're birthday was anyway. It took a little time but by the time college came around. I caught up. Almost you go into college. Seventeen man that just seems sixteen seventeen. Here's the thing though is not there. Ruffie IS NOBODY KNOWS. But you and so you've been at the same pace and do it all the same stuff as everybody else right if you can make it through middle school to get into college part. That was not so bad move. Who's The jungle missiles the juggle of the World Middle School kid? People were terrible terrible people and then merged their merciless and they feel like they put adults in a very tricky place because they grown enough to know what it is that they doing but the law says new not allowed to hit them right right. And that's at that age where they legitimately tempt you not to hit like. Outta disciplined like. We're not talking about corporal punishment. I'm talking about a fight. Let's go right where they just so wild disrespectful. They don't have any of the governors of the maturity to be like t to have the capacity for empathy. Or you know whatever they just. Everything is one hundred. Everything feels so emotional and so alive in electric Middle School. I had a decent tyler wheels. Who'll be even then? It was not a lot of fun if you think about operating on the principle that you came box with them in high school that yeah well. That's what I always like is it is it. They chart with people which is what age you were when you realize that somebody will fight you like you grow man at age typically before eighteen. Oh Yeah Right I. If somebody's Beta clear to you as a new Game Bruin let me give you to rule it out alive and I'll give you the blues. Feel like I was like fifteen or so. My brother made it clear to me. That like new stakes are not. We don't do this no more you can. You can step up this. Yeah the exact words. Were you big enough for me to hit you now? That is an important lesson. A Lotta people need to learn a lot of people do not learn it or they don't learn it in time but I feel like everybody needs to have that lesson. You people will love you. I'm saying like everybody will love. You is an important lesson they will. We need is like a ceremony. Some right of passage to let you know they. You have graduated to a place where you can get your rock. You know what I'm saying like we need to have something some certificate. Something this is to notify you that thanks to your completion of the tenth grade brought like when you get your largest permit right. It is at the same time. Oh absolutely I mean I mean. The thing is social. Media makes it so much worse. Because you don't quite comprehend the stakes that that people on the other side of the messages that are being symphony. He'll sit there received and so I think people really got into habit of talking to people while I was like. Yo At least what I was coming up and I'm not pretending like I grew up in nineteen forty or something. My people got beat up all the time. You might have to fight. You might have to go to the cafeteria dating my head to be a fight. You know yes. Do they. Still fight may homeboy. Who's a principal of a high heat and he used to be a vice principal out of Dulles is food and talking about fighting out there all the time all the time here Dulles he he also he was a AP over will risk to over here and he said they fight all the time and he said not only that he's a girl who worst into dudes girls were fighting all the time all the time? Yeah can we tell? The Best Wheeler is story of all with rich stories. And you know the story. They'll talk now through my like. Please let me. Joe Grew up in different parts of tile. We say made right. You graduated ninety six right right. He says I graduated in ninety seven right but like we don't know each other from home. We did rolled together from home. I don't even think we've ever talked about this. But all I had to say was the wheeler is story. He meeting elite. Y'All got her to say we'll ridge like an hour away from my house so that even by Bun my freshman year of High School Willow Ridge at the Best Basketball TV in St Write their answers awesome. See say right. They eventually won the State Championship. This is well before the TJ four. Daddy you in a Adam McFarland tape right so they bought to go to stay tournament and what are their players who I believe was the starting point guard unfortunately was unable to make the trip and you may be wondering why he was not able to make the trip to tournament. He was not able to make the trip to tournament because he got caught in a girl's room. And you may be thinking wild getting caught with a girl. That's the main is the punishment really that you can't play in the state tournament. No the punishment was getting shot right. The person who beat it out the punishment made this decision and as I recall pops did not go to jail for even a moment this down the street from really from city. I'm from Oh city I was on the edge so it happened within my neighborhood. The shooter and a young man and I knew I mean. I didn't know the girl the girl he got shuttle shopping. Yeah that will do all it was worth. I'm not saying you're shot at Nagasaki. Why is that some judgment? I think he could use some different sort of judgment right. I felt like if you are from Texas. You recognize that. The consequence for trespassing is getting shot right period. Like them's the rules. Trespassers get shot right. This was well within the realm of possibility. I don't care if he had just been in there playing monopoly rights. It's so disrespectful to I mean why. Why the them all for real and understand what I remember is not like he was shot in the Bedouin the hallway yes so it was like the conversation continued. Well that's question is was he running away. Did POPs approach with a pistol moignan POPs heft to go given the pistol right that way but again all foreseeable circumstances testaments Hillary's that they still put championship. That's a great point gets lost in the store to Atsu. Oh Man Player of the year man. From what the old miss. I've always wondered how that wild of habit that was one of the first. I don't understand that you could you go to Ole miss and this is not the old mister. We know today that it's not the push back. This is the oval was only a few years from having a confederate flag. All that was my most vivid memory of the university. At that point does Ali. W- what else is there to note. He wasn't good right right. Rollerball tell you a whole lot? The only thing they could do to finally get people to stop waving the flag was be like you know what that's why we sorry right like you say we can't do this without them right right but it's still it's not like that has been a compelling argument even really. I mean they still I over. That you know there's a contingent of fans are considered alums. That still they need to be convinced. Yes yes this is what I'll say. Is it interesting some over to ask you the difference between like Alabama and Mississippi Estates? Because I think that people look at all those deep southern states as basically be in the same right. Here's what the difference is at Alabama didn't go so far on this but still it they had been waving the flag in Alabama. And Somebody. Come and been like yeah. We can't be good at football. If you do that. Autumn flares we would be on fire. They know more flays. Oh Mississippi Alabama look at like. Yo bad like like like. You're not go with this. One right in that sort of that is sort of the thing that bear Bryant. At least I mean you know if you believe the you know the origin story to San cutting him stored at least he relax. You know what I'm not going to lose them so I'M GONNA do whatever I have to do to turn this around. That's not with his own miss the well. I mean you know. We'll see how turns out you know we still got players down. Yeah well here's the thing I'll give bear bryant though enemy necessarily high bar but I do think that this is worth considering bear. Bryant did not seem to be operating on that okay. Just give me one or two to say that we do with it. Program right when NATO bear Bryant. It's gay he was lying okay. It's cable. I'm Ali News. I'm trying to Silvester crusoe right right. I mean that's I mean that is a very audi supposed to live with the pioneer. Yeah I'm GONNA do what it takes. I appreciate that you know. It shouldn't take that is there should be some. You know some sort of humanity involved in these decisions you know you should understand in equality but if you know not wanting to move is enough to integrated finding if that's gotta be the well. What I do wonder about Brian because I do think that the argument is fair. Like this idea that I'm just not going. I can't just walk in here and do this all by myself right like who knows how it would have gone ear. Bryant head tried like unilaterally in nineteen sixty six been like. I'm bringing in a Black Dude. And thank you need to have your politics and like your office. Politics that line to make sure the player will be protected. So forth is so all right like I tried to be careful. I don't want to give the guys too much credit for some of those early integrators because they were just doing it for the hell of it in ways but also don't want to be too scornful some of these guys but what you should have done was like there's a whole power structure that was set up on the other side that being said Dean Smith walked in one day decided. I'm going to integrate the Atlantic coast conference and didn't ask anybody mission just showed up with Charlie Scott took do a segregated restaurant on Sunday. Took all white church dare somebody to say something man? That's unbelievable man and his playing when he came to. Chapel Hill was soon as I can. I'm GONNA do this. See what do you think would make a deal royal then given that? Because did you read that book? Earl Campbell Earl Campbell those but about ut Studied read. It is really really good and talk about. I mean first of all you see is the reason they were one of the first rules to make standardized tests part of the admission process. Yes which was the continued to keep you know for integrating in due time but also I mean darryl was not like he was before that's something he's always sort of have to answer for is and I'm just curious to know what you think about. I also think though that historically part of why royal has had to answer for it is a little bit of bad luck in that the nineteen sixty eight Texas teams the labs all white championship team right and so they're in. That does Texas Arkansas Games and so they become like a face in fixture of My Buddy Imagine Kentucky always makes this point that if in one thousand nine hundred sixty six Kentucky had lost their national semi final game and not wild up against Texas Western in the final the way that people look at Kentucky might be different. I it off his own situation but who did Kentucky beat in their semi-final to play Texas Western Duke? Now you imagine how we can talk about do given everything that happened like after the fact right magic the way that we would talk about Duke if they happen to be that team at that time who won right so royal and I'm not as familiar with the roll era as I should be but I mean if he had wanted you could he just walk in and say game change right now. I don't know what the answer to that is yes. I don't have a great answer that being said. I don't know how excited he was in the place about the idea of this change it were. I mean he obviously as you can see you see. There were a lot of structural things preventing him from integrating in all time right. But I do think that it today said that we talk about these guys icons legends and you know some of the most important people. They it helps. If you're on the right side of it. Does it really really really really like people need to understand that? Does Lawsuit Filed Got Away Supreme Court to integrate the law schoo at University of Texas and the courts deemed basically? They need over the law. School was it before or after the decision that takes the state of Texas was like well. How about this? How about we open a whole new black college and give it a law school now Texas so there was fired martial law school. Yeah without like how about? Y'ALL WANNA GO. Ya gotTA come two hours. Yeah I mean I mean which is unbelievable. I mean Kevin Cruises White flight is one of the best books I've ever read. It's an outlining the list to which white government of Polish such win at that. Time to keep this integrate. I did not realize the Georgia shut down schools public schools totally or you just haven't integrate which is just beyond block has a county of Virginia. That did that say they where they said out of school. Too Crazy Day goodbye to Atlanta was a statin that book and I can't remember what year was but what was the crazy percentage of Atlanta schools. That had two or fewer white students not to or fewer percent. Right you owe or fewer. Yeah Man WanNa know who those two are. I mean seriously sued white. Mike Boorda your parents. Do They not love you just the other ones? I was working on those chains. Now let let let we wound up just going all over the place because why that is wrote a Tom. You are a former college football player. Let's let's just say that school told you that. Rhona break is over but you were not ready for Rona break to be over. Not You as you know late thirties. Early forty year old man. You as one thousand nine hundred twenty year old. How does this play so the dilemma here is that they're saying it's time to come back but we want you to report? Campus Practice Star. Yes you have to go. I mean I would not have wanted to go if you mean to be in school and so forth. School is at stake here than they have. All the leverage right. The hope is that you can convince enough of your teammates to. Hey are you. Are you going? Let's companies like you see that lesson you go. That guy was a obviously the inclination would be to not want to go back but this is too much. There's too much pressure the SU- much institutional pressure to follow orders. You know that's the thing. I think what I play football. I have a hard time explaining this to my wife. Who doesn't like anybody telling you what to do. How does he play football? And I was like you want to please your coaches want to police. The people with that like it is a big book and also they in control overplaying tire. How you move around the building all these other things. You just want to make people happy. Ain't you want to excel on the field and so you're willing to do things that might not necessarily be good for your health. I had a concussion at practice. My freshman year miss the morning session came back after. Essentially you're like me. I had to do that but it's just I wrote. I can't sit here. You know what I'm saying. I need to get out there and oppress people so be nineteen twenty year old. Joel I would showed up on campus like they told me to. I've been to see people herm Edwards said this Gene Smith Idiot. Ohio state said it. We've seen a few other people make this very rational point. Which is if it ain't safe for the rest of the students to come back houses safe for us. 'cause they'll there's eighty selten dudes on scholarship. Right eight five hundred though scholarship on a college football team. How you going to explain to me? How is safe? Oh is I mean it's horrible? It gives up the game so much man I mean. They can't even guarantee school is going to be happening here to schools. But they want these boys back to play ball ought to be be inconvenient order. And Yeah if you can't. I mean in also just imagine what group of people a- less reliable to abide by the rules of corn team for stay at home order than eighteen to twenty one year old man right. You know what I mean. So you can't coordoned-off enough republican up to ensure they're not gonna step outside endanger themselves or put themselves at risk of getting exposed to covert nineteen and now we go put them all around each other right right and I mean we've seen enough examples of young people dying to know that it is not a given the just because you get it that you're going to recover the awesome players go home and go on holiday necessarily any safer better for some players. Navene ON CAMPUS RIGHT NOW. They get three squares. You know they have you know their own living quarters for the most part but I mean to get these guys together to to play football man. It just seems grossly irresponsible. These are the guys that come to your home. When you're seventeen years old they're gonNA take care and they're gonNA look out for us if they were their own son. And I have a hard time believing that they would be pushing their own children to be out there playing in risking themselves under the business. Yeah that's that part is very interesting. Like I wonder if this because a lot of these coaches. They got their kids all the team right. Like I'd be very curious to know how that affects the way to these dudes view the idea of coming back. Hey man does another part of this and this is just kind of uncomfortable but whenever people were talking about the idea of paying players one of the frequent counter arguments is well then the non revenue sports go away and I'm like well okay. That's a trade that we have to make. Unfortunately somebody's gotTA lose. It's kind of a concept and economic operato ophthalmology like we are at a point where we can't improves. Somebody's condition without unimproved somebody else's condition right. This is where we are. It's an unfortunate break. I gave where you come from but man you start seeing this university Cincinnati. The I think they dropped their soccer program right. And everybody's real sad about that and I totally get it. But in the end they not going to be able to afford to stuff man like I understand why I can't blame anybody for not looking for every way possible to try to get back out there just understand that there probably isn't one but there's some bills that go to come do and there's some people that go get their money and there's a programs they're going to have to go away like I'm Hugh Grant. I gotTA differ. Fear fear by all my motto. Forget about a little program that we got out there and like I feel what's GonNa Happen to the whole school and for a lot of these are the schools but a Lotta. These other people is going to be real sad. When happens but this is the game when you don't make money with a created it in such a way for one that they don't have any extra money they spend all the money that they have so they created this artificial economic reality for themselves. To which way we ain't got no money would they create you create it? You wanted this way. You're the one that had your. Football program has five offensive analyst right. They didn't use the exists. Fifteen years ago. You didn't need that decided you want it. I actually tend to believe that these athletic departments at least the top five programs right like we're talking about Ohio State Michigan Righty bye-bye. They've got the money. But you're like you said. Cincinnati is one of those schools. Like I think someplace like University of Louisiana Monroe. Ain't got no money for a lot of these places not just the non revenues or it's the veteran's Golota because I mean how can they continue to argue funding if they have money if they have difficulty just funding the institution itself right? Well also let me tell you something about those schools that you talk about that. They're going to be fine. I do agree that like the probably the high end top ten GONNA BE OKAY. But College. Football in general has made a bad investment as it relates to the Times that I don't think he's talked about enough which is light programs that carry in heavy debt load off stadium renovations or capital improvements. Right capital improvements specifically increasing the size of the stadiums at more these bleachers. At a time when people are actually attending gains less and less. And that's where I think. A Lotta these programs are going to get stuck in this. Is they've got to pay for these things that they've done for these stadiums they gotta pay for these luxury boxes that they've had built in order to bring in more this ticket revenue which by the way it even that big a piece of the pie when it comes to what they're actually is but the stadiums are not going to pay for themselves and I don't even if they talk about coming back we come back without people think about I mean I know. Nobody's taking pleasure in anybody's difficulty. I think about school like sectors. Am You mentioned him all the time because so much of their fortunes depend on like the price of oil? So they they. They're going to be dealing with that. Plus THE EXCESS MONEY. They poured into the expansion of that program and the stadium. But what are they gonNA Services Rides Africa at that price of crude situation? A deal right. I'd be paying attention to what's going on over there. But they are not lie basically they program Venezuela houses. What else is watching this documentary on Cuba and you know. It was like after the Soviets got outta there You know Venezuela dental Africa but he's been Israeli was door was giving them a bunch of oil and so they give a bunch of all they hold half and they'd sell the other half but did with all price falls eight dollars a barrel. Everything's a problem in Cuba. It is a problem with Venezuela because they get all day buddy off selling that. Aw Man see. I wasn't even a doctor. You watching the ran who coupon libra. It's like an eight episode docu series. It's actually really interesting. It goes like back before the Spanish American war and takes you into the twenty first century. Got like a whole lot made a lot more sense to me after watching that. And it's also interesting because they took great care to try not to portray Fidel Castro as anything. Try Not to make him a Saint. Try Not to make them the devil right. They were just like all we could do as latest up out. There ain't a whole lot of Fidel saying a lot in there because it's impossible to give anything close to a neutral portrayal of Fidel Castro. And you got two sides Oh Castro and they each think the other side is ridiculous right now. They're not trying to hear anything in either way right without getting political I mean. I know that that was part of the political debate this year and the idea that Fidel Castro could do anything. Good is absurd for some people and they just don't have it so yeah I mean I could totally understand that if you have a documentary you don't want people to get caught up on that right you don't want to go cook otherwise you just everything's slowed down you stop you. See some listen everything. But but that'd be a sad or the flipside that people who like embraced Castro full on his revolutionary when showed a clip of female somebody up against the wall? And you see him blow. Somebody's brains out there to be a little bit. Oh I mean it's a very better fan trail. Wow that is what I'll give you a very matter-of-fact trail but yes. I disobeyed connect. Fidel Castro. All came together way that people could never understand et. Al defrauded but I'm worried like the council ball as bad. I don't know what's going to happen to all these these pro teams because we gotta remember man that all these rich cats are as rich as you think. I want to get the hell out of here man. I'm you know what I'm saying. He's not even broke his buddies all the worst places right now when he moves to routes a basketball team right he got no shares zoo right. He's not getting that buddy out of paper now factory. He's got he's got a real nineteen eighties. Ninety s like financial portfolio. Yes loo- brothers. They seem like that was amazing. Oh Casino Money would've casino right out in the in the in the in the tourism industry. That's perfect that's what you're supposed to do man. Ain't nobody going Kemah Boardwalk. No NO NO NOPE. Nope nope no like. All of this for him is just You know here's why I can't feel bad but none of them. Did you see this story in Texas monthly about how they prepare? Yes you don't know. Heb IS GROCERY STORE CHAIN in Texas. It's basically said Tonio. If you're a league pass watcher you see the commercials. A lot with the different spurs in a right like they know forgotten those quirky commercials with Spurs. All right so. Heb apparently with the swine flu. I think was hitting the streets. Heb saw what was going on because it was affecting some of supply chain stuff in China and they said from there. They were like okay. We need to play and so when Kobe nineteen hit. Heb had a plan. They have mask and all that stuff ready for the staff. They hit all the things. They knew everything that needed to be done right. And the fact that they could tells me that everybody else had a chance to be ready. Even if they didn't know this particular thing Wisconsin. They knew this something like this could happen. And they would need to be insulated from it. Instead all these businesses I hear living check to check right man. I mean the thing is it for them. They have to be willing to put people's lives at risk because otherwise the money that come in on Moore you know what I mean. That's the bottom line. Is I heard you talk about this and I just? I'm torn on whether or not we'll see sports again. Ever twenty twenty or twenty twenty i. I'll go money at stake. Man All it takes is one governor. So like Gavin. Newsom says that there are no sports in California this year. Then they're no sports. Twenty Twenty League can function without the role of the California entities. Do you think there will be like an incredible amount of political pressure like especially if we get to October? It was in in. Life is still like this. We flattened the curve. Such as it is you'll think there will be tremendous political pressure on a guy like that to open it up to a crazy people to vote. You know we you know they need people need to give back to work all right. I'll put it like this. Yes there will be an incredible level of pressure. And you're right. They may be somebody that gives into it. At which point there will be a breakout at one of these and now we go right back for God knows how long you seen you seen the story about. What was it in Italy? That one soccer match that was like Ground Zero for the outbreak dare There was an Albany Georgia. You know a relatively small town by seventy five thousand people in Georgia but the the the the next day there was a funeral for one funeral to another wedding or funeral something like that like everybody was degrees of separation to create this outbreak around this town and the Wall Street Journal this week just had a fascinating report that what may have really saved. San Francisco was losing super bowl because the first cases have been reported right around the Super Bowl. University University of California San Francisco's it. they built their corona unit and the day after the Super Bowl. They took in there. I do patients. And they're saying that if they had had a parade and you had had hundreds of thousands of people together in that space that we would have had something far worse than. We're discussing right now now. Are these governors really willing to put really go out there and take the risk of being the person that is behind something like that is hard for me to believe man? We have kind of gotten used to the idea. The numbers I. I've Been Kinda surprised at the ease with which we accepted the idea of thirty thousand people that just did you know what I mean. Thirty thousand eight hundred with dead. And I'd I wonder if because of that because we've sorta eventually used to things. Eventually you get used to whatever the normal and I don't know if a governor but I don't know if the governor will be willing to have that on their head but I think that there's also a lot of ways to reflect in a lot of ways to say that you can't say that that was on me necessarily as well I don't know. Yeah well I mean I guess the Fan free option is near writing this without the fans being present and I keep hearing all these people talk about the possibility but again like I say there is no way to do a football game with social distance. It's not right to who we have my listeners. Right right like we had a Michael Collins Our last week talking about golf. And he's like. How are we supposed to televise? This event with social justice is not possible. You GotTa have the cruise. You GotTa have all these people you gotta all of these things than necessary to take place and I just don't see how it happened so to me. I find the idea that there will be sports. Twenty twenty highly highly highly. Unlikely I agree but also I'm interested in the ideas that these guys are not gonna forever be able to tell people we can't open back up again. This is GonNa be attributed. The thing is we live in a bubble but we live in a world in which the sensible thing is. Stay home. Wash your hands. Be careful with your whole of people. Don't believe in it right so even with them. All family people that are like Yo man so this five jeep. You know that's crazy right or we should get that information from somebody. I talked to one of my homeboys man so I noted like me in a lab. That's what I heard. I'm like come on man I mean I guess I can understand why you believe that I mean you got access to all the same moves outlets to come from you know don't know where the five G. King Crow like who's the person sits around by. How does something like that built? Steam right right like like who? Who is patient zero on the five G. Conspiracy? And how does he get to enough places that enough people that trips over to where meaning you can find out about it because that's the question right like it can stay in a circle of people who have no credibility? Who IS THE BRIDGE BETWEEN THOSE PEOPLE IN US? That makes it such that. We have some understanding that this exists. Man I'll say that instagram is been great sprinting. That bad information I feel like I follow a lot of rappers on Aji and I would say the thirty percent so at least I'll probably undercounted good twenty five hundred. Nobody's many problems. But I'm just saying does a lot of dudes in the hip hop community man. And maybe you know if you went back tweet tweet five years these would have been in the five percent of stuff. You know what I'm saying. So they believe in conspiracies and I understand why a lot of black people believe in conspiracies of but this win does not it just doesn't add up owning the big I will say about rappers. Though in La entertainment types they are privy to a lot of information about things that we are not write their whole world is the real story and then what winds up coming out there like I think a lot of the skepticism that you get from that class of people is because of the level of dishonesty in information in the world that they live in that? It's hard for them to believe that anything is just the way that somebody says it was not a believers in. Arqam's razor that I write an and then the other part is a whole lot of self education a lot a lot of books. No Barco A lot a lot of that has happened to poorly proof-read copy. You know like a lot of that. That goes on out here. Knee streets also. Let's see. Oh Man Cassie Kata stage trying to get a beauty. Greed is like well. I just it is a little arrogance of college me but I was. I mean this is the truth I was way more like intellectually worldly and exposed the most of the people of my age at the top. Because we're a college professor so like I had access to things that people did not have and I found myself be awhile skeptical of anybody. I went to college with try to put me onto some book. Oh Hi how you know like I heard is never daddy talk about this right. How you up on this game we ate. It was always the isis pay us. Forty eight laws Powell. You know there's somebody would hit you with something then like I didn't even know about at the time because I'm not religious so like the idea of like anti Semitism registered with me. Because I didn't know any JEWS TO BE ANTI Semitic toward nor did I have any idea that the Jews may or may not have killed my messiah like none of these things like cup in my life. But you'd asked if I tried to hit you relate the protocols it I of the Elders of Zion know about brother that'd be participated this but we talked about this before me. I in the early nineties for people that were not allowed to not aware of it. That was a little resurgence of the nation of Islam. The Bax movie. It just gave up. I was right there. You know what I'm saying. I guess I'll admit this with understanding that I know better now Louis Farrakhan came to Texas Southern University. I think in ninety three ninety four and my father took me to go see it so I'll just I was high on all that and it wasn't until maybe ten years ago that like I've actually grappled with the idea that Louis Farrakhan 'cause like I hit not and we've talked about this before I did not know very many Jewish people. I NOT EVEN. You could have not even given me any clues to things that he was saying. There antisemitic you. Would you just would have totally went over my head. I it I would have not recognized for what it was and I would argue that he is not anti Semitic Day. I think he is but I just had no. We didn't we grew up in Texas. Where the just was not gonNa Jews that you speak up right so right. I don't know what their last names somebody. Somebody told me. Because you know my theme for Media's Shel Silverstein I thought he was black and they were like Silverstein. You sober sue. You didn't like Jewish name. How how old were you before you realize that like Seinfeld? Oh how many of these jokes are like at the Jewish cookout jokes. I had no idea I didn't know Seinfeld was not had nothing. None I remember sort of the sixer episodes were like Elaine was sort of like attractive to do because she Jewish guy wasn't Jewish and that was like the first time I was like okay. Like all these people here. Jewish. Okay I get it now. Whatever but she wasn't Jewish up this right. Somebody's GonNa tell us we. I was an episode. We either she was attracted to US guys because she wasn't Jewish or something like this. I remember that that's all I thought that was all New York stuff. Like I didn't know about the Way New York in the south very often code word for Jews. I just had no idea. I don't know anything about Jews. Your right not not at all not. I can't imagine that you would have met many out in waller. No no no even even just like in the Porta town that I grew up in not really right. Now it's all by Belair. There are areas of Houston where there are Jewish people. I did not know them. No money like I didn't know that mar part of Ireland was like that was a area where Jewish people like Meyer Myers supposedly like juice day. I had no idea the Jewish community centers over there so by the way. I it's like Chris. Rock said we break white people little right rebels neighborhood and I didn't know no black people right and by the way if the rub east the road and it's going doubt the white coalition is not going to let faith get in the way right ways that matter to us right. There is no reason to be breaking this down into little groups. Oh yeah absolutely I was just like hey man I just knocked people religion those I put my ignorance attained. Its to there's somebody that's GonNa be listening to this nervous as hell about what direction this is. Go go a boy. They look advocated. A story is one of my favorite stories are so I was doing. Dan's Radio Show in Miami and is a cat named lethem. Skuld nick who worked at radio station and they will call him. Ethan Juice Skolnick right and I heard that and I was like wait. What like. What are y'all doing down there right like this is so we were on the air one day and I was like you know what I'm going to go ahead and ask this and I'm like apparently like y'all get down differently here than I thought y'all did like I don't understand like I've been listening and Y'all call y'all be call it. I'll just call him. Ju Like I'll get it. They're like what do you mean I'm like I mean radio. Y'All say Ethan. Juice go nick and they were like no juice. Eight thin juice nick and ally look. Y'All need to start yawning. Toss lower balls in which we juice and skolnick and everybody was so nervous as it was going on and I'll look it up like y'all nervous how you think you. Oughta was here call. It may a Jew. I'm like I'm glad we could get this straight right. I'm glad that we could clarify this. Now we understand. I thought it was something that sounded crazy. It turns out that would have been crazy but that isn't what y'all were doing. We're all safe. We're good but man. They they chest was oh right there they read. Look man I mean. Don't they thought I was going to get everybody fired you? He wrote that situation. Like wait a minute. I think what's going on. Here's a problem. This makes me a comfortable alad like so by the way. This is exactly the right right right. You didn't do anything wrong DA DA. They was cool but just the mere mention right great. Nobody's nobody one of those problems and I was just trying to make it clear. I don't want these problems either. Absolutely as I need to know what kind of office coveted to what sort of work black people real plus please stay at. I know that just because y'all can do I can do out. Just blow it away by the fact that. Y'All could do this the best exactly the Just 'cause y'all could do. It doesn't mean that I know better. It's it's a Ruben. A lot of other people would do well to embrace. But we're not gonNA say have to you see that clip out against that Delaware Lindo show where somebody say the word he had to say he. His approach is what I've been saying for years. Go ahead let me know how it works out the NASCAR KID. All your yes. Yeah Man. Here's what gets me about this right fast right because you know. We got fired by his racing team. This is a quote. The chip Ganassi gave to the Associated Press. There's the team owner. I told Kyle he could come back from disk. He can come back from this with our team but there really wasn't any choice. Why are you so concerned with telling him that he could come back like this thing on the situation like this because as much as we have determined that the N. Word is the most damning word is society? Reality is man. You Ain't gonNA find too many white folks who have not said at some point and I'm not saying that with like a crazy judgment because we treat it like you say inwards equals. You are racist white. People are typically going to do everything they can to let you know. This doesn't necessarily mean that you are a bad person because calling him. A bad person might mean calling myself a bad person and so the message that ultimately get sent in these times is not how bad it is. But it's maybe bad but that doesn't mean that you're bad and so when this large new whenever he returns is going to be a standing ovation. Oh we see that. This is the John Rocker. John rocker is that kid hater. Dude remember who got exposed during the All Star game for the old tweets. That's right I forgot about standing ovation when he came back. If you get caught like this they going. Somebody's GonNa give you a standing ovation at unless you notice. They still got. You're talking about these people like they came back from Alabama scare so that. That's something like this is not. This is an obstacle of your own making. You have to say you know Yup but you know what seemed to be extra Wacko about that to me so this kid is half Japanese. Twenty seven years old. But I'm old now I would call it A. Oh Yeah Yeah. I'm at that age now where I started talking about these things differently But he's like twenty seven years old. His mother. I believes Japanese is grandparents were in like the interment camps and all this he's California and he said that as he's gotten older that he'd Kinda needs to embrace his Japanese side more like he has basically ignored that for significant portion of his life. I and I read then I could. Yeah right like I read that as leave from right around Sacramento. You know what I mean. So we're not like I can see. How does that happen but I read it? As he has tried his best to fit in with the white kids like he is tried his best to get along with them and I wonder if he thought that what part of fitting in with the white kids was is saying the word you know because like the way he said it in the way and by the way the people he said it to they immediately. Ra like the old. We're not a participating right like none of the Vale. Bright met him halfway on that. Why 'cause you man was over there being extra 'cause the dude trying too hard to fit in always dude as out here doing some Mesh and I'd be curious to know like if you were to get in his heart's about why he did that? How he got to that place is it about him. Having like an actual hatred of black people or is that him thinking that this is this. This is how you fit. Well I mean I hate to say but I mean. They're probably a lot of reasons for him to believe that is considered right or that. That is just language you use you know. They may not have anything to do with actually literally hating black people. You know you may whatever I mean. I'm not gonNA ascribe any motives to him or whatever. His politics are whatever but At least using that sort of language I I like you said I'm never surprised. It's something like there's not a white person alive that if you told me they said you're like okay. I'm shocked like I just did not see that you know but like I say I say the same thing about me. Call HIM WIFE. Also board ended his madness. Also right like you have to have a conscious effort to fight it off. You're not just go build up a natural immunity to racism in America. That's not how it works. You gotTa make a conscious thing in your head. I'm not going to be this person. This is not something I'm going to do. And if you think that you could just be like oh I'm good. I'm just GONNA stay by on it now man. That ain't that that's probably not GonNa do it so like for me. I'm which is like you're not going to. You're you're not go shocked me and by the way you tell me that you did this this one time. You told me you did it last week. We might be talking about something different. But when they started going again people like high school tweets and stuff like that. I might do come on man. We even play a fair right now. I don't ever that never high school stuff is never compelled. I mean the thing is though it does suck because they're black high school kids and have to go through that and lose. Go to love those kids. That think that that's okay. That's a way to fit in. I mean what what did they say like in the last three or four years like incidences of bullying and racial topping and so on and so forth at schools up because it's been part of the national language right now right but yeah but you know what I don't hear about that worries me and I'll hear about no increase in fights. That's my one thing I am here for all our anti bullying stuff that we're doing making the world better but I always thought that the greatest anti bullying mechanism that they came up with was taekwondo studio. How many taekwondo studios were kept open by bullies? How many of the Patriot bills appearance being like? Now we got a solution so much for that we are not. We are not our grandparents because I grabbed Bureau saying like yes eat up all I think every black Friday we had somebody has a story of a relative would be somebody ass be seated yes of or or has their own thing about it. The solution or what do you do? Nobody calls you Edward or by House. I'll just tell you what it wouldn't it wouldn't go get. The teacher was that was that how that flow chart with over Monte. Come home would you do you? Thing is honestly it. Never you became down to. What is you do 'cause? The conversation started with got into a fight at school today. Why did you get into a fight? Well Oh okay since the Yup Yup. Yup that's anti bullying at Joe's house right. The illusionist fight. But we don't do that. Nobody they make so much more series at school like you get arrested that started with school and started like putting people in jail behind fight. They were trying to put a cutting down. I'm at you know even when I went to. I'm looking at the Public School for a public high school for you. Signed up straight. And I'm Mike. Capped out of their house. All the time you get people you know what I'm saying then after school then it'd be fights all the time and people do go right back to class you know but it was. That long then is when yes. When they they started putting people started criminal people. I was just part of what we what we thought was acceptable to do to children back. Then I guess it'd be still SORTA deal cops. There's always going to be in their wrestling right before we go. It's Kinda gotta suck it like this. Is your year to be drafted right eight. Oh draft party for you your parents to whole I mean you happy. You might even know if you're GONNA play. You're not gonNA meet your teammates. We're GONNA happen. You're not going to get to the Jersey the hold up your Jersey team. You know what I'm saying at the press conference you'll get to Dapper Raj up. This is GonNa be that depart. Really deflating also think about this too man you know I think so much of the NFL draft processes this ridiculous that a lot of it is unnecessary. And I remember reading a story on Jordan love profile in the story they talk about how it one of the combined interview. One of the coaches as a prospect. Would you do if I were punchy right now that would is that? Tell you about anything brulee writing. You know how. Somebody's play football employees. They're going to be so bad. Part of it has been good in that way but also you mentioned. Abc News in In the taking of them and I think about guys from the smallest moves. Abc using light guys. It would be you know. Low Round draft picks in with a free agents. Like they're really gonNA be hurt as a result of this sort of stuff because they don't have a chance to go out and impress people get workouts in or Man that part of it like that class of NFL DRAFT PROSPECTS. Who would not first round second round picks? It is really really going to hurt them. I kind of wonder what's going to happen with that about way to answer to. What would you do if a punchy right now is only one way to find out a right? That's the only answer right well. Also we're not going to do that though but you not not right. What if I did crazy? You don't know if I did. You have like a certified like Oh by God. He's crazy other. Football team was at. Tcu got a name them man. Well Yeah Okay Man. Yeah that do first of all he had the biggest Laos Stoop Stereo Susu in the dorm it physically dared you to make it turns out that Guy. That guy in your. I'm not gonNA say his name so one night he. I was one of the few people that had Karl campus. Because I was always going home. I mean it was. It was eighty seven hundred six yards. I don't think I had like money but anyway I had to go. I went to go to best buy buy like some music so this came with me. We came back and I just I just. I don't know what else doing I didn't. I didn't like my car door and he was like a payment. You Might WanNA WANNA lock. That was kind of weird. If he said it would seem a year. He had been kicked out of school for stealing other people's cars on campus. Yeah he was he was awhile boy man. I think there's a lot of crazy on you. Know what I mean. There's a lot of news. But he was notably is he was the biggest dude. He's like six foot two thirty. You know what I'm saying. But he was just broadly. Nobody would ever challenge that. Yes well my favorite guys on the Football Team. All the ones that a hood is they wanna be but somehow figure out how to navigate through that university system while being every bit as hood as we are described like somehow they figure out how to make your work without having to change it. They and I don't mean they just figured out how to make work just because they like to play ball at school no I mean. They navigated the social infrastructure. They those coming up and now all of a sudden they are also Dow fixtures of the community. Oh Yeah I mean man. I mean those guys should stick around guys let me get. Let me let me give you some you know. What do you will be drinking but this year. He's like Alka which you took. Which are which are what you'll be drinking by the end of this year? Yuck whenever you told me that. And what not trusting Ed You know guys like that man. You know they are not you know that you could trust because you want people that are not i. You know not necessarily coaches pets. Whatever might be that are going to give you the real about what the system is and how to like men. I mean there was. There was a deal you know. People were Books back you go to jail. I go to prison for them. It's crazy you actually can. Yeah right and they were doing it. I know I was something that was against the law but that was it was a very common thing back then or stealing from an stealing from a cafeteria. Somebody what am I doing something how to the cafeteria and I forget I went. I went to lunch winning odds called Johnny because nobody could figure that is getting his tray and he walks out the back way Johnny Cash Soviet. He's like Sh- would he do it? He got me and I was like okay. That's how you that's so that's how it works out entity I had a Napkin dispenser tinsels offered man and all that I was getting on that stuff. I'd cafeteria another school. I went to this. I was broke like it was hard times at this school. I'm a little ashamed wall. The all the boosting and everything like a ways they we struggled away the back doors we snug in all the time is that we was just like I would just put my head down and just keep all like Alvin. Our just put my head down and act like supposed to be here. I think you care to the college here. You've got to risk the things you know the tests. Yoder as Dr. But Hey bad ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for joining us here in just a couple week. We're may say. And how does everything behind to say? Thank you Sir Joel. Check ABOUT SLATE DOT COM. I don't know how we go describe what we talked about but I enjoyed. It was good times. Thanks for having me off taking down. Every time I hear you I appreciate it. Ever remember Subscribe to the right time. Rate is review gives five stars four stars and McLeod. Thank you are hater without you guys and a couple of days take it easy. Thanks for checking out the right time with Bomani Jones. Podcast you can listen or subscribe on the ESPN APP apple podcasts. Or every listener podcast.

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Being Michael Jordan with David Roth and Joel Anderson

Why Is This Happening? with Chris Hayes

47:52 min | 5 months ago

Being Michael Jordan with David Roth and Joel Anderson

"My takeaway from this is like you. Don't actually WanNa be like Mike. This is a guy who so driven who so driven and so talented and so single minded and so compulsively competitive all of these things ran together to create this once in a lifetime once in history level of excellence that like actually you probably just WanNa like have actual friends and like a good relationship with your spouse and your kids and like be good at what you do but not Michael Jordan. Hello and welcome to wise is happening with me your host Chris Hayes yet another week here in the quarantine closet. Although the weather's improving time is passing spring here. The blossoms around the trees. The Sun is in the sky. The birds are chirping. I'm in a good mood. I'm in a better mood than I've been. I was in kind of a dark mood with the rain. And the cold and all that in the quarantine. But I don't know I don't know what it is I think just spring and son are making me feel better and I thought this week we would do like we do something. We've been doing a lot of heavy topics on this show. Probably because we're in the midst of a once in a century cataclysmic disastrous national nightmare that gives us unceasing misery and grief and so I thought maybe We take a little break from that. What we're going to talk about today is Sports specifically this of basketball specifically the Chicago Bulls specifically the star player for the Chicago. Bulls a guy by the name of Michael Jordan from North Carolina. Now if you're not into Michael Jordan or basketball or sports in general have none of this is kind of your thing. Do not worry because in some ways it's not really a conversation about that. It's going to be a conversation about fame about why people want. Why Guide so much of an interaction with the culture. Also white may not be such a great thing. I mean in some level the story of Michael Jordan and the conversation we have about it are about the most sort of like to temic mythic themes there are. Which is you know what happens when Nicholas flies too close to the sun. What happens when when agrees to the bargain with the devil? What happens when you you get everything you want? And then you tuck yourself in at night having accomplished everything you want and like what goes on in your head. What is the status of your soul? That's what the story of Michael Jordan is really about. You may have heard that Espn just finished a ten part. Miniseries documentary about Michael Jordan ostensibly. About the last season he played for the Bulls the titles the last dance and the sort of concede of it was that there was this kind of behind the scenes footage that a documentary crew shot in the last year Jordan played for the Bulls which was nineteen ninety eight. I think and was the sixth title that he would win that he won eight years and also his last year and the way that it was was like see this never before seen footage in the end it was much more documentary about Michael Jordan's entire career and the never before seen footage was not like particularly striking revelatory. Which will we'll talk about. But this thing I mean I gotTa Say I. I've probably had this before the show. I grew up in the Bronx in the nineteen eighty s and through an extremely weird happenstance. My my father was a from Chicago and he kinda raised Scotto sports fan and in this kind of formative years in which sports really imprints on your mind nineteen eighty-four the Chicago cubs won the division. With Rick Sutcliffe and Ryan Sambergen. I was super into them and then the next year was the Chicago. Bears Super Bowl win. Also Michael Jordan's rookie season and so in this very short period of time it became like an obsessive psycho Chicago Bulls bears and cubs fan. Which I into this day and so I was. I was not just Watching Michael Jordan. I was a bulls fan at Michael Jordan's peak at the age of like ten or eleven or twelve honestly some of the strongest emotional memories. I have about anything from my childhood. Is Michael Jordan Bulls teams? I remember going outside and chucking a basketball against the side of my house until I put a dent into it after the Pistons beat them for the second season in the in the playoffs. I remember getting to screaming your fist fights with my friends in high school. Who are all knicks fans in the series of the year after Jordan left in which Scottie Pippen allegedly fouled knicks jump shooter on the sort of follow through Which was a bullshit call bullshit called this day although in today's NBA would be a clearcut foul but back then was not so basically. When I saw this thing it was like oh it's the nostalgia of like a Quin of some kind of drug. I mean it just could not find something more chemically designed to stimulate like a huge part of the nostalgic reaction. I have and what was wild is the see. I think a lot of people have that feeling like many people. Watch this crazy. Ratings crazy amounts of discussion and partly also because it was a very weird product. And we're all missing sports. Those of us who are sports fans and this was the one piece of sports content that you could watch and connect to and sort of tweet at it real time and talk to other people and so I have a million thoughts about this documentary A million thoughts about the personage of Michael Jordan and what he means and what the the image of him being sold then and now was an is and so. I thought I would get to my favorite writers to talk about this with me. Both of whom are writers who are really brilliant and incisive minds and wits in sort of their own way but also our sports people but not really like I wouldn't call sports writers as like a sort of their their their key. Calling so one of them. Is David Roth freelance writer? He used to be a deadspin before the mass exodus he he wrote about the show. Sort of recapping it for vulture over a New York magazine. You might also be familiar with some of his writing on. Donald Trump with trump. Here is. He's he's written some incredible incredible pieces about our soggy brained president. And the other is Julia. Anderson is a staff writer at slate. And it's funny because Joel Anderson Several he wrote a great piece called Michael. Jordan's exactly what I thought. He was which captured a lot of my thoughts. But you'll Anderson is also when I talked about this over stimulation of a certain part of nostalgia in my my sort of neurochemical system by this the last piece of content. That did the exact same thing at the same magnitude was conceived and created by Joel Anderson which was season three of slow-burn which is about big to park which which was basically the same experience although it was a much better done undertaking from an artistic and journalistic standpoint but like that that season slow-burn which you haven't listened to you have to which is about the sort of big into just transported me just absolutely like flooded all of my sort of sensory systems. I in taking me back to like experience of of high school life and my investment in both of those people so I thought they would be great to talk to about this and I had. I joked on twitter that I have like a ten thousand word essay emmy but no time to write it. So this is going to be the version of that so David and Joel Welcome it's great to have you guys here Thanks for having us. I don't WanNa answer for Joel. I'm happy to be here. I'm a huge fan. I was intimidated to be invited here. So thanks for having real. Oh well so I thought maybe we start with the weirdness of the conceit of the thing which is basically that. It's a documentary about Michael Jordan. In which Michael Jordan was was he a producer is that right. I don't think he had a credit. But the actual producers were like his longtime of business. Managers basically both had producer credits. Yeah it was it was. It was done in teamwork with his production company. I don't know how much she was actually involved with her. Yeah but the general sense is actually saw weirdly. Ken Burns was kind of critical of of this aspect of it where he basically said like. It's not a documentary if the subject essentially has final cut which is basically what this was right like. This was a look at Michael Jordan. In which Michael Jordan. We think basically had kind of veto over the the the end result more or less. Yeah as far as I can tell a which makes the more striking that it came out. So Insanely Weird. Because it was the sort of thing we're like it wasn't a hundred percent advert oriel but it wasn't like ten percent aditorial either so there's like the extent to which Jordan's set the direction for it is known but it clearly is like it reflected the ways in which he wanted to be seen and it was way stranger in that regard that. I think even I'd anticipated as a longtime like student. Of what a weird dude. He is. Yeah I think that he definitely saw. This is his final word on a number of matters but before we get I do feel sympathetic to the challenges at the director checks in hair Face here because I agree as a shitload of behind the scenes footage that is supposedly the spine at this documentary and ESPN is giving you the go ahead. They've given you the resources they've given you all this like you know all this real estate and the only condition is. Hey Michael Jordan might wanna come in and say whether or not this is okay. Would you turned the opportunity down? I know you know that'd be really to your point and I think the thing that three of us all agree on is and what made it such a fascinating product even in its flaws. Is that tension and the fact that you were. You're aware that at some level. This is how Michael Jordan wants to present himself and yet he does not come off well like mental takeaway of this thing is like whoa dude really like this was your like. This is the way you choose. You chose to present yourself because like you come off as a real fucking psycho. No I think Michael Jordan is very delusional about himself in the way he relates to other people in that. That's the only way I can sort of rationalize why he was comfortable with this portrayal of himself right that he believes that being cruel to being abusive to people leadership. That's what he thinks and he doesn't have a problem with you knowing that he has a problem with people thinking that he's seen because of that but he doesn't actually think that there's anything wrong. He doesn't think that there's anything wrong with calling. Scotty Burrell Ho is a means of motivation. Yeah that that's like that's like practice that's leadership. Yeah but then like so. The goal there is to try to explain to people why strategically as a leader and as a team mate. You kept calling this due to Ho all season. And that's like that's a challenge for anybody to make. I think the thing that that I thought was interesting. About like how warped it came out as a reflection of Jordan's perspective. Is that the stories of it. I mean it is the story of a team and of his career and so there's parts of it that are known but then like seeing the the way that they handle different parts of it. It's like you could see what for instance about the publication of the Jordan roles actually resonated with Jordan which was like an iconic book that came out I was in middle school and everybody read it and it was basically like that was the first time anybody had found out that he was a dick. I mean that he was such a hard driving in difficult personal work with and in the film the whole treatment of that is given over to. Who's snitch to the reporter? Which is absolutely the only person that could care about that. As like the SEALY employee of the Jordan rules is Michael Jordan. And so that's what we get is like fifteen minutes of him. Being like will horace grant did hang out with them a lot but B J Armstrong is very shifty so I never know like really bizarre and Jordan Jordan rules. I mean for people that are not familiar. With the documentary I mean basically Jordan Jordan becomes a sort of immediate icon and sensation. Because he's just he's an insane talent unlike anyone has ever seen and that insane talent is very early on married to this iconography through Nike. That creates this kind of larger than life brand even before it becomes a champion and in the beginning of his career the knock is kind of like he's a individual performer but can't lift his team in camp and can't win titles so then he wins first title and it's kind of like oh he's arrived in. This book comes out. That's like you know. Now he's sort of peak nearing the peak of his sort of global icon. Status in the book comes out. Basically being like the guys total asshole. He's a complete bullying practice. He's constantly belittling people. He's constantly and even going after like the twelfth guy on the like these these sort of crazy. Petty Mind Game Obsessive Competitiveness. Near Fisticuffs with people ragging on people to a degree. That's like moves past like the the bullshit testosteronal performance of a basketball court and into something that feels like compulsive in weird like and that's the basic takeaway from the Jordan rules but also basically documentary like that is that that notion of him is not in any means like obscure or denied by what we see in the documentary. It's more that he tries to explain it. This is what makes it kind of an interesting document. More maybe despite itself. Maybe on purpose is that again. It's all this stuff like. He has been very overt about Scotty. Pippin being his best team they won six titles together. Like it's you think of Jordan. Anything Pippen in the same thought and so the idea that all these decades later. They're still a part of him. That is trying to prove that he did it despite Scotty or you could have done it without him or like just chasing the last little bit like the two percent of his legacy that he has to share with all these other players is I mean again. That's that's Michael Jordan. Every day I guess but it is still like a a strange thing to see from somebody. Who has you know outwardly? Gotten all of the things that he famously wanted. So that to me is You know what's what's the fascinating thing about this document is that basically. It's like got the public image of Michael Jordan gatorade space jam. Mcdonald's Nike be like Mike Tongue out. Champion holding the title Dunking from the free. Throw line everything total excellent and I gotta say like just for Sports. He's the best player ever it for from from a kind of stoute's perspective and kind of like full of the game. Lebron James Cream Abdul Jabbar are are both sort of up there. I think that like from the sheer magic of watching someone play I. Just there's just nothing like it to me that's partly nostalgic but but I think partly like technical like the the amount of things he was able to do the way that he dominated a game. That said it's like okay so we've got the icon and then the only time that we've gotten peaks at him at who. This guy is our behind the scenes accounts like the Jordan rules. Where it's like. He's a bully or this very famous hall of fame speech. He gave when he was inducted hall of fame. He was just like in this totally insane. Way like ticking through all his petty grievances to the point where he like was talking shit about and ragging on a decent but forgettable player for the Utah. Jazz famously. Hit the game. Winning jump shot over to to win the last title. And it's like it would be like being at your wedding and getting up for the toast and talking about like talking a bunch of trash about your tenth grade girlfriend like what's the fuck are you doing like. Why are you doing this like it's your wedding day dude like Hallelujah like I was modestly one of the weirdest things I have ever seen in my life? So what's so strange about documents I go into it thinking okay? We got the icon on one hand. Then we've got the behind the scenes weird petty grievance bounds bully. What are we going to see here and your title of your piece Joe is like Oh it's just that dude that dude over the course at ten hours. It's ten hours of that dude. It's sort of amazing that he never for the concerns that they said that he had. He was worried that people going to be. You know think that he was mean. I think that he was a bad person that he never took any measures to soften. This was an opportunity for him to have his kid in something other than the very last episode right. They don't appear they do not. There is no family. The family Michael Jordan's family does not exist for except for two moments. The kids show up out of nowhere in the last episode. And then there's a moment after he wins the title titles like do to do anything he says we handle. Do you WanNa talk to your wife. And they like. You're like alright that I haven't heard about his absolutely the best laugh in the whole thing is like wind. His kids show up at the nine hour. Seven minute mark of the thing. And you're like Oh. Hey Wow cool. You see them at the beginning when they're like five and they're like rebounding shoot around and then you see them later and they're just like grown men like thirty two year old guys. Whatever I remember that Yeah I. He had all the opportunity. He had all the real estate in the world to show another side of himself a warmer family man and he just punted on that. He decided that that wasn't important that it was more important to settle his GRUDGES WITH JERRY. Krause in Byron Russell. Isn't that Weird Jaycox? Who's been dead for ten years? Oh yeah but that's one of the things that Joel wrote about. This is something that I had actually had my last recap and I had to take it out because he wrote the perfect story on it which is fine. It's all right. I've not I keep mentioning when we make a documentary about my blogs. Now calling your but with David yes I got a but he wrote about a book that came out. It's like Jordan rules to basically about Jordan abortive comeback with the wizards in two thousand and two thousand one and it. That book is even more so than than the Jordan. Rules really shows him as beyond like being tyrannical and compulsive but like actually quotes directly what he would say to the younger and less accomplished players that he played with and there's like the F slur fi features prominently in it like end. It's you know it's bad. It didn't look good at the time and left out of the the last dance which makes sense given what the frame of that that thing is but you can see in this. That like as a Guy. That famously does not forget any slights. Not Trying to pretend that he wasn't that way you can see. He's like very consciously kind of savvy trying to sort of reframe it right so so the way he the way he sells. It is not that I'm a sociopath. Not that I'm a bully. But that this was essentially all means to an end this is a strategic vision of how to get people to a place they need to be mentally tough enough to win and what I care about is winning and the thing that I found sort of fascinating which would to me took this to the next level like okay. So I'm walking in being like what are we going to get here? Public icon the behind the scenes bully. There are moments tiny little moments of self awareness. But generally what you're getting is like a kind of self justifying SORTA EGOMANIAC explain to you. Why this kind of single minded sociopathic pursuit of excellence was necessary and sort of quarter. Who he was. And what? Then that then brought me to was is this actually. I did this profound meditation about the cost of it. All because in a weird way might the thing that I ended up coming away from his like my take away from this is like you don't actually WanNa be like Mike like actually there's there. This is a guy who soldier who so driven and so talented and so single minded and so compulsively competitive all of these things ran together to create this once in a lifetime once in history level of excellence that like actually you probably just WanNa like have actual friends and like a good relationship with your spouse and your kids and be good at what you do but not Michael Jordan and like that to me was actually quite profound like once. I switched over into seeing it. That as like a kind of meditation like do you. Is this actually what it takes and like if it is what it takes is this. Do you WanNa be like Mike. Do you want to be and I was like no I do. Not and I it just right your Michael Jordan. You don't really have. You have a very weird social life. You don't have anything. Nothing's normal normal friends. You hang your home is you're not on the tax chain talking like all things that are like make life worth living. Frankly that was when I tipped over to being like. This is a very interesting documentary. Because that's kind of the VIBE. I'm getting from it right and I think in a way that if maybe it's amusing on how distorting famous because there's nothing that can prepare you for becoming Michael Jordan. I mean we're talking about a guy who grew up in Wilmington North Carolina which is a rural area grew up North Carolina. Didn't go too far from home. Then all of a sudden he goes to Chicago in becomes this phenom and arguably the most famous person in the world so you can totally imagine how that may totally isolate you from everybody else who can relate to that. Who can you trust to get into inside your circle and so you may end up with people that depend on you being your circle as a result that he may not? You may not welcome other people into it and you may fiercely. Try to protect your fame and your wealth in your success in the way that he had to so I felt extremely Safran end of it. I mean I don't maybe that's why they shot him in the way that they did to alone in this empty house but you know maybe they wanted us to feel sorry for that director hinting at that without getting Michael Jordan to say it but Yeah that was that was totally the takeaway I had author. I would never WANNA be. I'd rather be Tim. Duncan somebody like that like why would I wanNA be Michael Jordan? I would my thought was I would not trade my life for his kids like I like. I love my wife more than anything in the world. I love my kids. I love my high school friends who I'm still tight with like I. Just you know that it just felt. Yeah the loneliness of it and then one more layer. Where like I find. I find him generally kind of off putting but like and I think. That's partly like my heartbreaking. Someone who loved him with every last fiber being for so long as like my hero. Michael Jordan has a bulls fan as a kid. But then there's a deep level of empathy to which goes to what you're saying. Joel which is like this right Thompson piece that ESPN published. Which is sort of like where he's from. That's like twelve thousand words long and it's just like this pretty incredible piece about just like this is an actual person from an actual place in that. Actual place is a place of like Intense sort of country African American experience. It is a place that came through the war that came through A white supremacist Ku. In the town of Wilmington in which essentially a town that had been quite integrated and quite enfranchised and kind of was represented. A lot of what was best about the project of black reconstruction was wiped away through White Supremacist violence? And and and he is. You know several generations removed from sharecroppers and only one or two more from that from slavery and when he went to his grandparents house he would eat dirt and oranges which is a tradition the brought over from West Africa. Get Iron in the body like it was just as intense thing of like. Remember who this person is. Remember the history that had to produce everything to make this country kid which is sort of the thesis of the peace like this is a country kid from country folk this country kid at nineteen. Go off to be you know after one freshman year to go off to be this person like of course that's GonNa fuck you up like who like know and that and that sort of grounded me back to the empathy that I generally feel when I watch any young athlete and even have I have micro micron of this being a person who has a public profile myself. Where like it definitely has screwed me up in all kinds of ways like my tiny little one one millionth of of NBA fame is a is a battle every day to retain some kind of psychological integrity and not become psycho and so that's the other part of it too it's like. I don't know man like just re finding that empathy for the for for for all of the things that would create this personality. It's a miracle that anyone makes it through it intact. That's right that's right exactly. He's not like literally doesn't end up like with a addiction problem or or or like mental mental health problems that make playing the game impossible like it is actually a miracle of mental fortitude to to to come out the other side in any way and to be as famous as he was to that that like 'cause that's on a level of fame that I really maybe even exists anymore. Yeah I agree that like it was a momma basically more or less like you have to be that and this was the guy that you know played a sport like an an American dude of no. I mean was handsome and charismatic. And stuff like that but this is one hundred percent bought on the sweat of his brow and then like the biggest brands in the world. All pushing him at the same time if I mean beyond surviving it. If you come out of that even as a real person I think it would be pretty miraculous in that. Any you know. He didn't but like it's hard. I say well but there is one. There is clearly one part of his personality that I think has a real kind of pathology to it and the and they it in the documentary really interesting way. Which is gambling and I wanNA talk about that after we take this quick break. Hi Everyone. It's joy reid host of am joy on MSNBC. Did you know you can listen to? Am Joy and all your favorite MSNBC shows as podcasts. You can catch up on the beat with Ari. Melber the Rachel Maddow. Show the eleventh hour with Brian Williams and more anytime on the go. Search for your favorite. Msnbc shows wherever you're listening to this podcast and subscribe for free. Thanks for listening. I'm Lee host of into America. A podcast from NBC News and MSNBC. Join me as we go into the numbers. Eighty three percent of her patients. Don't have insurance right now into the choices. I have to plan a funeral in the age of Corona virus. How is this going to work? And into away through the importance of music is to keep our spirits up into America. A podcast about everyday people and the power that politics policy and pandemic Democrat in shaping. Our lives new episodes every Monday and Thursday. So so Michael Jordan during his career in the first so there's just so that people can get the time on the three peat he he retires abruptly and collectively baseball and then comes back he comes back late in the season they lose the Orlando Magic and then come back three peat again so they they they went six titles in eight years with this very weird break and the break comes right after Two big things happen one is that there is more and more reporting about his gambling and the others at his father's murdered in this horrible tragic crime. Which father's driving back from visiting friends pulls over for nap? Because he's tired in the middle of the night and these guys are I think convicted of finding him and shooting and killing him. There are some questions about whether the ones that did it. I know that that that those have been raised and I've not looked into it enough to have a strong sense. Maybe you guys do. But but the gambling part of it was a huge deal at the time and there was this question of like Michael Jordan. Have Gambling problem. He's Atlantic City to on the morning like he's playing golf with all these people and it's very clear from the behind the scenes footage. The guy is like an obsessive gambler. Spending all this time and money on a quarter flipping game and that is the part where you're like. Oh my God that was like I felt like I was watching a like a smoker. Like pickup butts and putting them together to make a cigarette when I watched that like. I'm like this is Michael Jordan. He's worth a billion dollars and he is there obsessively playing a quarter flipping game banking quarter. Like you would do in third grade during with substance or something with like his bodyguards. Yeah two security guards. That's I mean they would have you know every NBA plane. There's like a high stakes card game going on in the back and then in the front. It's like all these guys on minimum salaries bench guys playing blackjack. For a dollar a hand enjoyed would go up there and be like. Hey guys you might have. I play with you just because these were people whose money he hadn't taken yet and so it was like that was the appeal of it was. I don't want Jud Buechler lunch and I wanted to be and I want that to know that I'm the reason why he did that. She's amazing is how the man's mind is wired but it but it was to me what was wild about. It was very similar to the other parts of it in from from the psychology. Where it's like okay. We'll the the negatives that I know about him right going in our like he's a bully practice right and then it's like okay. Well let's see what happens in the documentary like oh he's a real bowling practice and then again it was like well. One of the negative I know is like maybe a gambling problem is like. Oh she's got a real quick the takeaway of the actual footage when everyone was like. Whoa DUDE LIKE. This is a pretty pretty compulsive behavior. Oh Yeah I mean we know that he at least enjoys all of the legal vices in their fed by his insatiable appetite for competition in dominating the people and it just seemed like. I just remember those this scene in the documentary. Where they're getting onto a bus of leading Scottie. Pippen through a crowd of media. Because he's like. Oh I gotta get Scottie. Pippen out on the golf course. I can take his money. And there's there's funny is that there's actually it's interesting to me too so and I don't. I don't want to make anything big of this accusing. They're having a substance problem in any way but but but it wasn't interesting me. He he does all the interviews with glass of whisky right and his eyes. Look a little like he's he's he's a few cups in which like no. No not no harm no foul but like there's one like they have the craft beers after the game again. That's there's one time when he comes in during playoff game where he said he had like two beers. That's that morning. Did you catch that. Yeah it was talking about that. He was like yeah. Played Piano. A couple Beers xactly. It'll today it's the justice of the game. I think it's the day of game sex. I think it's they with when he's got the headphones on listening to music. That's in the back of the bus. And he's like I was just like man. Dude I was like I would never like for my little cable news. Show which is not a requirement me to physically perform at the level of Michael Jordan and the NBA. Like I wouldn't have two beers early in the day on a day that I was doing the show like it was just sort of interesting to me. Also I think just in terms of like the other thing that I felt like was missing from the the show I felt it sold him short in some ways because the story that they're telling is this story of will uber. All is that like the reason Jordan was the best was because he had stronger will than anyone. But it's also like he was a genius at the game. He was a genius and like we don't get to see his genius at all. It would be like watching a documentary about Picasso. It's just like well. I like to paint more than anyone. There's more going on than that like you. Actually you see things other people. Don't see you approach things the way other people are gonNA pro. You're willing to take risks. Other people aren't willing to take like all of that. None of that came through to me. Well I feel like he probably is bored with talking about that with mere mortals. You know what I mean not to feel that. He can't even explain his genius in such a way that it's worth it. There's a part of me that feels like he didn't want to to again like to share credit with these guys and so while it would have been interesting for him to be like. Yeah Gary Payton Gary Payton really bothered me in the games that I played against the Sonics in the NBA finals. Like he's like here's how I managed to beat him. He can't do that no like he can't say like instead will thing and I showed him. Yes which is bizarre. It's that was defensive player of the year. He's like the consensus that year consensus for like one of the best backward defenders of my lifetime and probably Jordan's as well and yet there's still that link that's the part of it where I feel like the Director. Maybe is limited by the subject to a certain extent. And so that's where you know like do it yourself. Like he doesn't necessarily all to be his vision of things. That was where I got frustrated with it when I couldn't tell was. Is it reluctance on the part of Jordan or is it that the audience they for? This is very big and it's sort of like those those two minute BIOS yet in the Olympics. Which are about the athletes that have nothing to do with technique of their sport. Because like you don't know anything about curling so it's just like here's their. Here's here's their story of overcoming because you can relate to that but like you don't know the curling technique and I couldn't tell if this was like a choice made on that which is that we want people who don't know a lot about basketball aren't invested in the basketball details to watch this and so this emotional story is more important or whether it was Jordan himself. Who's like board or not interested in trying to explain that stuff? Yeah that's interesting because I could definitely be both but I think that there's something there's something to that like the complaint that there wasn't an basketball in the series is also blake. It's hard to tell where that ends. And where my complaint that like? I really want to be watching the fucking. Nba Playoffs right now. So those two things are kind of like overlapping to such a point that it's hard to say you know who's right and who's wrong. It's probably not me. But they're the stuff with the basketball. I think like when you do see it for most of the series. It's these little highlight reels of the different players. Like when Scotty Pippin or Dennis Rodman get their little half episode thumbnail histories. You get two minutes of them doing what they do to some roughly contemporary song. That Jordan as a guy who hated rap and presumably still hates rap would not wanted to have in this series under his highlights the but like when they actually did in the last two episodes like start to to actually show how the plays sort of worked like the flu game for instance or the food poisoning game. If you WANNA do Jordan's version of the story like I remember watching that and being like it was a very profound sports watching experience because he looked like Shit. I mean he was really really having a bad time early. Stand up yeah and then the ball would come to him. And somehow he'd be Michael Jordan again. For like the seconds that it took to like get open or elevate but then after that he was just dead on his feet again and so. There's bits in there where they'd let the sort of the footage run a little bit and you can see how shitty body language that you never see an NBA player have collapsed shoulder sunk and then him sort of stirring back to life and that illustrates it way better than him. Being like a felt real bad in a bar that afternoon but you know a dug deep and I found a way so I thought I thought the flu game was like the apotheosis of the of the art of this thing. Which is that like because in some ways. It's like it's the it's the ones where where this where the the motivations and the and the explanation they're offering delivers which is just like the whole thing is like this guys will is just deeper than anyone. He just he just has some other gear of how badly he wanted. People don't have the the flu game is the illustration of that and the emotion. It triggers a me. The feeling I have watching those highlights is just like nothing else. Like in the end it was like it could have been utter garbage and it was not utter garbage but it could've been utter garbage and I would have watched every second like just the the promise that like in five minutes from now we're going to get a little more game footage of him and Reggie Miller. I'll suffer through whatever it is to get there because you know it like we're all star for right now and it's also like I don't know it's just like one of these. I think generational defining experiences that that that you know might watching Jordan play about playoff basketball was generation defining for like a whole group of people basketball fans. We I mean he is he was probably the first most compelling basketball player my lifetime of forty one years also before that so many of the stars of basketball with these huge plotting creatures from the big men like will Kareem although they're great athletes but they weren't as aesthetically beautiful is migratory even even Magic Johnson. You know big six foot nine plotter still right in in Harry Byrd. Very ground bound guy. Michael Jordan looked on anybody that had ever come before him. And so when you see that over and over again it's like Oh that's why we're watching a documentary about this. Yeah that's exactly right but it's even more than that is that he's he he he. No-one has looked like him. Since I mean that's the other thing like even like that was what was so striking to me is having watched so many years of basketball now cumulative I'm also forty one you know. I've watched now basketball thirty six years probably and for however many years since he retired. There's no one like him like the the sheer aesthetic beauty of watching him even now. There's nothing like watching Jordan footage. Yeah that's it was kind of encouraging. Honestly I was happy to see that that was confirmed to me. Because I remember being like god-like but I was a kid you know so I didn't know and there really is like they're you know there's plate like Kobe modeled. His personality after Jordan's in very slavishly like imitated his game right down to like choosing contested pointers way after everybody else stop doing. And those comparisons only makes sense. When you're looking at like a shot chart like Jordan could fly like he like the footage of him leaping and then other guys is basically going up and then beginning to go down kind of achieve that level is this unprecedented still been replicated for. I don't know what it is because there are other people who can jump like that at some something probably jump higher higher interest. Whatever was happening physics wise. No one has done it. Nothing exemplifies that more than that I think was isn't the first of the second episode where we see Michael Jordan game. Two first round series against the Celtics have four hall of famers on the floor. This is one of the best teams in NBA history in. They didn't have shit form because nobody had ever seen anything like that before. The young Jordan was a guy that I I you know. I Probably Watch those games. But I don't think I really understood. Like how like just like saucy and cool and you know like before. He became the championship. Tony in her. And this like killer. He had like the gold chain Jordan the SLAM DUNK contest. Jordan was like so much cooler than I would have even remember -solutely. Did you perceive a real difference between them and like Dominique Wilkins as a kid? You know what I mean. I A kid thinking all these guys are really cool in athletics and that yeah they were like dunking guys you know. It seems to me that the the marriage of the moment and the person and the media environment that that all came together and him is unreplicated able in the same way that like Mohammed Ali is replicable like and Mohammed Ali. I think is a much more in some ways that the inner life of Muhammad Ali in his and his sort of public mindedness is quite different in kind of more interesting Michael Jordan. But you know you. There's it's very hard to think of alike championship boxer. Who would have the like? Yeah the pull. The global like capture of people's imagination the way that like Muhammad Ali in those those moments did and and I you know maybe Lebron James. Now it's much more of a global game but there's something about Michael Jordan status and iconography of him as an icon in that moment. That just feels to me like you'll never quite see that again. I think it's Lebron is is I think in some ways to human like there's obviously a lot of memorably so yeah and and there's a lot of like God with Lebron too but he's a talker and he's more open and that sort of South America where he remembers every detail of every game. It's incredible like all that stuff Jordan would not do that. That like that's the part of him. That's like maybe perversely that I think made it possible for him to become as iconic and as like famous famous as he was because he doesn't seem human yes he reflects the virtues out but there's no also just reflects you back at yourself right whereas Lebron seems so much more and I love this about Lebron I find him. I find Lebron endlessly fascinating character and and really admirable a bunch of different ways not the least for just the basic idea of surviving. The insane eagleberger would happen just a literal child and and and this happens to you like but he's you know between his instagram and like he's working out he's rapping in the back of his car's Taco Tuesday here my kids like and partly I think that's a creation of the social media environment. We live in now where he just. Feels like an approachable human. Like I feel like I don't know I feel like if I was a bar next. Lebron James I would like we can make a conversation whereas I never would feel that way Michael Jordan. I would have nothing to say Michael Jordan. Can I get your autograph right well? There's a model culture that existed and that simply chemicals in the same way today. There were these barriers around bat the celebrities of the famous people. That time that you just couldn't get around and so you didn't. It was easy to make a myth about Michael Jordan. Because he didn't fill in the gaps like he wouldn't. You wouldn't see anything else you've seen him in a hanes commercial. You seem in a Nike commercial in. That was a unless you were really watching post game interview clips of Michael Jordan Beckmann right but like that made him unique. You know the celebrities. Today they've got to be talking exposure to social media as a different media environment. We don't believe in celebrities fame in quite the same way that we use to You know now we sort of punch it that golden facade so yeah I mean it's this. Nobody could possibly be as cool as Michael Jordan was in the nineties. It's funny whether it's US whether it's the media environment there's an inescapable vulnerability that prowls around fame. Now in a way that didn't feel like proud around frame then he was hounded for sure I mean but it was like the stuff that he was getting pushed for the gambling and all that was like you know there's enough of it in the the movie that you can see that it's like it's a little ugly. It's definitely judgy like in the way that sort of news media would be there. Connie Chung would be like. Don't you understand? You're letting down the children and he'd be like fuck them kids and like they got a dollar. They can play to take their money to just like hustling game. Hungry hungry hippos against the throat slashed gesture that that is again. That's very different because it was like you know has said it was limited to these spaces where that sort of thing would happen as opposed to like him being out there. Twenty four seven like setting one foot wrong and then just being you know whatever in a different sort of world of shit when you like someone who is famous today you can only feel terrified for them right like if you enjoy them. That's such a good to hold onto the moment because you know there's something on coming it's coming it's going to get you. It's like you can't get game. It's just not helpful. That's exactly right and that I've I've talked about this before the show I bring it up all the time. Tiffany's probably laughing because the thing I'm always obsessed with Kevin durant twitter or it's just like it exemplifies vulnerability because it's like this guy is one of the five best players in the world probably of basketball not only one of the best five players in the world basketball like he's better at doing the thing he does for a living than five point. Nine nine nine hundred billion other people are like basically no one will ever go through life. Being as good at thing is Kevin Durant and is as good as basketball and apparently his entire life is like like reading criticism so crazy. It's just like an end in some ways. Like that's a little bit of the lesson of the Jordan doctor right like. He's a prisoner of his own grievances. He's he's he can still recount all the people that voted him. It's like when it's like when Tina fey got up and she got a thirty rock she got a thirty rock emmy and she said she read the comments from some common thread about thirty rock. And she's like take that like Beth are thirty seven and it was clear that it was like an actual comment that she had actually been on these comment boards. And it just like. It's such a sort of obvious cliche lesson about the FAUSTIAN bargain here. But it's like there is no escape like you're going to be happy on your own terms because of the people that you love in your life and the you have and the meaning you derive from your work internally or you're not going to be happy but you are not going to be be made happy by any sheer accumulation of external accolades for how good you are thing. Any external cumulation of EGO stroking will not flocking work in the end. If you want an example look like Jordan right. You can't ever get rich enough or successful enough to stop posting. What a terrible terrible lesson of are not. No David Roth is a writer freelance writer. You should definitely check out a byline. Whenever whenever he's got something new he wrote about the last dance for Vulture Joel Anderson. Staffers Sleet and as I said if you haven't yet I'm I feel jealous of you if you've not yet listened to season three or slow-burn because I loved it so much it was it was a magical magical fascinating informative ride so you should check that out. Gentlemen thank you both. Thank you cut thank you. Thanks a lot once again. Great thanks to David Roth and Joel Anderson for joining me in that conversation. I know that Combo was maybe a little inside basketball. Certain out Among a shared fandom and I can imagine if people didn't watch the last dance May Although there was a period of time in which I used to listen to game of thrones recap podcasts. Without watching game of thrones which was a weird choice. But I found like like I just had didn't had no stakes and it was like oh like Brianna started. This was like I'm not okay. And just listened to game of thrones recap COTS podcast. So maybe that was you during that weird thing aren't they you walk in. You're doing something walking your dog. You listening it's Nice. We'd love to hear your feedback. Tweet US Hashtag with pod email with pot at Gmail dot com. Why is this happening is presented by MSNBC AND NBC News produced by the In team and Kate Shaw and features music by Eddie Cooper? You can see more of our work including links to things we mentioned here by going to Mac. News Dot com slash. Wise is happening. Hey Seth Meyers from late. Night with Seth Meyers. Since you're listening to podcast please consider adding the late night. Podcast to your list. Our podcast is the best parts of our show are closer looks which are deep dives in the politics and the news of the day plus incredible gas the ranger movie stars to politicians to authors to some of the funniest people ever. There's so much to cover at. It's keeping me sane so maybe it will do the same for you. Go to late night. Seth PODCAST DOT COM and subscribe now.

Michael Jordan Jordan NBA basketball Joel Anderson Jordan Jordan Scottie Pippen Mike Tongue Michael Jordan Beckmann David Roth Espn Chicago director North Carolina Chicago Bulls MSNBC Nike New York magazine Rick Sutcliffe
Hour 2 10/13/18

Dari and Mel

38:23 min | 2 years ago

Hour 2 10/13/18

"As someone who lives in breezy college football, I can promise you that this season will bring the mayhem. You'll feel it during huge wins and heartbreaking losses on Dame, winning drive, drives it in a post game Fender bender. This season teaming up with AllState highlight these key moments. The let fans know if mayhem can show up on game day. Imagine what can happen. The rest of the week for expert advice call your local agent today. Cruising along on your Saturday morning week, seven of the college football season week, six of the NFL season. And we're also underway in the major league baseball league championship series as we'll get back to college football, go back onto the radar here in just a few minutes reminder would just had Chris Pollica on the bear with his three college games and NFL game. I tweeted out his picks. You can find those ADS SPN Dari always at one eight hundred flowers dot com. Twitter feed. We're always presented by progressive insurance by the way and don't forget. We're going to start getting out to some of these games. A site to these games will visit with Joel Anderson ESPN he's at Michigan and Wisconsin in Ann Arbor ianfitzsimmonsespn of Freddie and Fitz Simons covering Georgia LSU. We'll get into that game with him as well. As we cruise along here on this particular radio program. Now to baseball, four teams left Milwaukee with a win over Los Angeles last night game. One of the NFC s. But of the four games, of course, Red Sox and Astros fire up their ale CS a little bit later tonight. Who are the most exciting players the most must watch players still alive in these playoffs? Eight is. Hot. You see jumpy a little there. Mike, you see little eager little over zealous on the button. It's all good. All right. Here we go. Most must watch players remaining in these playoffs Mel man. Let's go three, two one. Hoosier number three. I'm gonna go with three Jose altuve and I look at the Houston Astros Doria and Springer Carreira Alex bregman. He was the most impressive hitter this season for the Houston Astros, but when you look it out to about Nick noca-. Okay, Nick, all the kids at home don't have great measurable. Okay. And tells you, Nick, what tells you, Nick is short me. Don't have great measurable. That's not good. Doesn't have great, measurable Baker Mayfield than have great measurable. But yeah, you look at a guy can one day become a major league player. You'll back to Freddie pot tech. All the great players from past years. Jose altuve as one of my favorite players will watch in baseball. I think we had a hot list earlier in the year about their favourite guys and Jose altuve output, any list, and there's others the Astros you could've put, but I'll go out to at number three. All right. Number three, most must watch player in the playoffs still to use to my number three contributed big time last night for the dodgers just wasn't enough, but it's Manny Machado. You know, obviously the the act was midseason acquisition is this just a short term loner for the dodgers many, many things. So he's a free agent at the end of the year. He could very well be somewhere else, but he's got to make the impression now he's, this is why they got him for series like this for a World Series run a World Series. They haven't won in thirty years. You know, we had a home run in the brave series Homer last night to lead off the. Second against Milwaukee almost brought LA back. And then I think it's Milwaukee, but to me given the fact that we don't know how long he's going to be in dodger blue, but he's such a key in that lineup and in the field to, but in that lineup, Manny Machado, the most third most much watch must watch player still in these playoffs. I can't go there for form. No, I know is a heck of a player baby a Yankee pinstripes. You know, Harper may be wearing the Philadelphia Phillies uniform next year. Let's interesting where the stars end up, but no question Machado last night. Come through in the clutch for the dodger. How about your number two most must watch. I got them the two guys. I debated. I'm gonna go at two Christian yelich and Stanton trade through the most attention. Okay. STAN going to the Yankees, but this trade the Marlins. Okay. Sending yell which to the Milwaukee Brewers kind of made that this team helped to make them what they are. He's been exactly what the Milwaukee Brewers needed. Dr. A lot of different ways may let them in batting average at three twenty six home runs with thirty six. RBI's one hundred ten on base percentage during the regular season. There are three games away the Bill walkie brewers are for making it to the World Series. He's a pure hitter is all around the -bility which you have to appreciate the more you watch and play. I'll go Christian yelich at number two Milwaukee Brewers. Yeah, he, he was up there on my list to. I didn't go with them. I'll go with the brewers to though a brewer on the mound. And we saw him last night. This is a to strike strikeout and inning guy with electric stuff. And it's the reliever, Josh hater. This kid is do come kid because he is young. But this guy is hard to take your eyes off of when he's on the mound. The lefty, the three quarter delivery, the wild wacky motion the hair flowing a strikeout machine. There is no more exciting pitcher to watch in baseball than him. You know any and the dodgers couldn't touch them last night. And eventually they got to the bullpen late and it's a great bullpen. Milwaukee has, but. Boil boy, is he something to watch when he's pitching Josh hater my number two most must watch player still alive in baseball right now. Yeah, it's a good call. Dr out almost went with Chris sale because what he did even relief the other day and what he can do is lights out pitcher in that kind of Randy Johnson mold. You'll get what he is right now unhittable basically and as been phenomenal and some others, you can go with as well from the pitching standpoint, but I'm gonna go to position player Dari number one, God. It's been a favorite of mine. Favorite of everybody is one of the best in baseball. Now you could've gone JD. Martinez let the semen home runs with forty. Three with Rb is one hundred thirty. Martinez did the regular season, but I'm gonna go Mookie Betts, and I don't know how you put Mookie Betts in the top group. I put him at number one excels in the field excels at the plate. During the regular season led the Red Sox and batting average on base percentage slugging percentage stolen bases, and it gets done. Job done as well. As I said with the gloved art knows complete players if not the most complete player in the game Mookie Betts, Boston, Red Sox. My number one most exciting player to watch and we agree that one and that one was, I mean, you look at what he's to thirty thirty guy. This season led the league in hitting three forty, six highlight reel plays all over the outfield electric personality, electric player. Mookie Betts, you and I agree most must watch player remaining in the major league baseball playoffs. So you go bats yelich altuve ago, bets, hater, and Machado. Well, it was big last night from a walkie and let me let me throw this out. I did this on Twitter yesterday, but I wanna give some major props. I always love it. You know, me, man, I'm, I'm in. I'm in, okay, right. I'm I'm kind of a small market person. I, I like win small, small ish markets get to shine on a national stage. They may not always have, and you've got loyal fans that that really show out all season just not. Everybody always gets to see it. Well, we are seeing and I think it's awesome from the brewer fan base in this postseason and last night in game. One is awesome. Nobody watches the brewers in the regular season outside of Wisconsin. That's just the way it is. That's not a primetime team or a primetime market because it's Milwaukee. And I don't mean that as a shot it is. It just is what it is, but now they have a chance to shine and the fan base is phenomenal. What a loud. Wow, the environment they provide their brewers and good for them. I'm glad they get to shine and props to Milwaukee and Miller park, and the brewer fans who are getting to enjoy one heck of a ride, and they make it to enjoy it for a few years. Yeah, they've at great rights before. Remember Paul Molitor and Robin yount and and all those great teams that they had the great years they had then and they have it again. And when you have the cornerstones of your franchise said, it was almost I won't say, gift wrap Dari, but the Christian yelich trade. When you talk about a guy that you deal, it was pretty close man at the Geneva, yellowish. I mean to me, you know, you pick up a guy like that that kind of it gets you where you wanna go, and that's what he's basically done. Help this team assisted this Milwaukee Brewers team. And as I said, being three games away from getting to the World Series, hey, there are two guys that have seven year that I can off top of my head that have seven year forty, nine million dollar contracts, Christian yelich and Gus malzahn which one you like and more about. Hey, where are you going to easily Clayton Kershaw on this list for reasons you don't know what you're going to get from this time writing though. It's a, I suppose it is exciting by the way yellow. That was the deal in late January. He's in this was year four of a seven year forty, nine million dollar deal that Miami decided wasn't worth hanging onto what did steal for and the brewers, right? Early same day, who do they get off the for in the free agent market that same day Milwaukee got yelich and Lorenzo Cain to get what a day that was for them, and they're hitting one two. And that order right now just lighten it up. Frankly, that was our hot list after a hundred years making shaving cream Barbara Sol's finally making razors that was a no brainer. Try the barbasol ultra six plus six within blades. They've now at Barbara salt dot com. Barbasol of course. Presenting our hot list on Dorian Mel ESPN radio and the ESPN app. Meanwhile, we move along back to college football, straight ahead more the under the radar games, including a team that I put in the college football playoff when the year was over or before the year started, I should say and a team not a power five team that sitting in the top ten with what many people feel as a really stiff road test that's included are under the radar games from around college football in this week number seven. Dorian male, ESPN radio, and the ESPN app took -nology truth brought to you by code. Truth, teenagers can communicate entirely emojis. How why? Birthday party pizza slice kitten, soccer ball, pineapple truth. It's so easy to switch him. Save on car insurance at geiko dot com. What are you talking about? Paper clips, shoulder, shrug, high, five wizard hat what gogo fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. This is a different feeling. Notre Dame people with very clear path to the playoffs. Where. Oh, yeah. From his own ends hands to Williams world across the twenty two. Me by the way terror. Dame's got some star hall right now textile UCS, ninety seven yards a championship caliber defense NFL polity, defensive lineman. This has got a different kind of talent and a different kind of Mojo in confidence. Notre Dame. One of those boy, there may not be a path to a playoff that is better carved out than there's right now. They've taken care of the business they've needed to take care of now the schedule shakes out what should be beautifully for the Irish Dory, and Mel ESPN radio and the ESPN app always great to have you along with us as we just gave you. Our hot list of the most must watch player still in the major league baseball postseason. Now we dive back into college football. We'll also get out to Ann Arbor here shortly. Joel Anderson of ESPN is covering Wisconsin, Michigan. That's one of the big time games. We'll dive into here again fifteen minutes from now, but we hit some key under the radar games that includes those fighting Irish. Number five, Notre Dame versus Pittsburgh Mel, your Irish are going to be favored in every game from here on out, they've passed the test. They need to pass the schedule. Now shakes out really well. I know they gotta deal with that game at USC to end the season, but you wouldn't think this one against Pittsburgh would be a test the way the Notre Dame offense with the book is kind of humming. Would you that three-touchdown favourite now? And I think you look at where Notre Dame is right now, and everybody mentioned the star power. The game that they survived are in. If you look back on this sees it wasn't Michigan, Michigan, not the same team. They were then either is Notre Dame. Notre Dame's much different team, much better team. It wasn't that king no came. It was that they survived Vanderbilt, okay, you watch game fan, Bill, scared daylights out of me and Notre Dame fans. And Notre Dame then or Bill could have won that game a two touchdown underdog. Okay. Survive what's Vanderbilt on since that game. Absolutely. Nothing. All out there at south Ben, and you can get it done and no-brainer built really a whistle to since then and Notre Dame has benefited from that kind of catapulted them to where they are right now. There's no margin for lose one of these remaining regular season games and you are done. Okay. So you got gotta win every game. You have no championship game conference ship gain to worry about so big adventure. And if you look at the key guys guys weren't even playing back early on one one in book, quarterbacks text waves coming back from the injury, how he's upgraded. Now, Pittsburg can't stop. The run. Extra Williams should be running while miles boykin seems to be on the same page. Nice report there with Ian book receiver. They got it all going. Unfortunately, Alex bars the guard out for the year injured, but they've been able to keep their restores healthy, particularly defense led by Gerry Tillery upfront, divine Coney drew tranquil in the second line of defense, and they have which the shutdown corner and Jolyon love the junior right now on the big board. Julian love this week debuted on the big board. It's number seven. He has been phenomenal as a key cover guy on the best in the nation and been guys locked down for them all year. He tackles, well, it's got to land long arms. He's a great player. They right now. They can keep those guys. I mentioned healthy after losing bars. They're guard. Then Notre Dame has a chance to finish undefeated. I will say this Goodwin for pit last week against Syracuse, two guys quadrille Lison Darren Hall both win for over one hundred yards on the ground, but not going to happen. And Dr you made my top five positional rankings for senior running back. There you go. All right. Number Penn State versus Michigan state, you know what this game is called l.. Dr. Yeah, here's half of my preseason college football, playoff right here. Penn State and Michigan state boy, Sparty beat up at home last week by northwestern. They cannot get any offense going Brian Lewinsky's. Not what he was a year ago. They're not running the ball. Well injuries play a part in that. Now they gotta go to Penn State whose last game was two weeks ago and a game that had to leave disgusting taste in their mouth blowing that to score lead against Ohio State in the last seven minutes of the game, this thing could get ugly. I think this could be one of those games where where Penn State makes a major statement because look the way they lost game against Ohio State if enough things about they're not out of it yet when it comes to the playoff, I think Michigan state's run into a potential disaster here today. Well, they are and there's that about it. And I think with Penn State having a couple of weeks to get ready there, then that lost Ohio State her James Franklin after the game, they wanted to clean a lot of things up. Sure things up and and now. Now you gotta Michigan state team coming to Happy Valley homecoming up at Happy Valley. You Brian Lou work the quarterback for Michigan state last year. Dr. He was sacked once every twenty three point. Two pass attempts this year has been sacked once every fifteen point, seven pass attempts, tack Levin times on the offense. They can't run the football there. One hundred twelve, average three, four carry terrible recipe going to Happy Valley from Michigan state this game. Penn State needs abouts back from that loss in a big way. Number ten, UCF at Memphis. This game is interesting. By the way, this one three thirty eastern on ABC or ESPN two depending on where you are UCS eighteen games in a row, Josh hypol- kind of Kip that nights machine moving. Now they go to Memphis. You know, Memphis, good. They got the former Arizona state quarterback Brady, white, fifteen. Touchdowns one pick. They've got the leading rusher in the country with Daryl Henderson. In terms of total yards. Nine hundred thirty four rushing yards. Twelve yards. A carry almost for this guy at UCF defense is going to get tested now and if they go to Memphis and they win this game by touchdown or two, I don't. I think it's gonna get overlooked, but it shouldn't be overlooked. Now. UCF is sitting in the top ten in the people. I don't know where they're going to be when the first college football playoff rankings come out in a few weeks if they still sit undefeated. But this is this is a test for the nights right now. Yeah, we are crystal fully come on earlier and talk about, hey Memphis as a shot to win this football game. And you look at UCF the key losses. They sustained Ari think about trae Kwan Smith Watterson huge game Monday night for the saints against the Redskins, right? He was catching ball, McKenzie, Milton list your Jordan and the NFL now was catching balls from Kenzi Milton well, they're not. They're MacKenzie. Milton's gone from sixty seven point. One percent completion percentage to fifty nine, six last two games completes the fifty three percent of his passes. Why? Because they don't have the key weapons for. Milton defensive chicane Griffin anymore. He's in the NFL and you got Darrow Henderson kid who has phenomenal Daryl Henderson. Now, only they should in rushing. You know what he's averaging per carry. Almost twelve, almost twelve care. Seven eight a carry, twelve, rushing. Touchdowns got a long, run a forty five or more yards in each of the last five games star. He breaks that long run. He's a threat in the passing game. He's averaged nineteen point, eight yards a catch with a couple touch Darrow Henderson right now. They what you look at. Underclassmen running backs right now. He is in that group. He's number three on my list behind Rodney Anderson's hurt for Oklahoma and mile Sanderson, they, you can make an argument right now. Daryl Henderson from Memphis playing. Good as any back in college football. Number nineteen Colorado at southern cow. Do we buy Colorado yet? Right? We said last week are undefeated record came against teams that were combined one and sixteen, then they beat three into Arizona state new. We buy them yet. This will be their first big test and it's not a great USC t Mel, but it's still a game Colorado could easily lose. Well sleeve, Montas I need. He can run around. He's athletic. He's big US's middle of the pack when it comes to pass the fence and all I have a big time pass rush. Then level ball hawk secondary. You're only have one interception Levinsky schnaut will be the best player on the field long says and terms of the offensive weapons at Colorado has story. But it is the first big test USC. So as good athletes on both sides of the ball. All right. Coming up should Michigan really be a double digit favourite against Wisconsin. We will ahead to an Arbor and discussed that big one in the big ten. It's ESPN radio, ish PM Michigan's probably thinking, yeah, we were about running the ball. We could his maybe some big plays against this wisco-. Secondary, Alex brick has to be able to take advantage if he's average this year, Wisconsin's enough to win the big ten west nest shape Patterson on the road with a Michigan offense, finding a true identity and getting better and better. Michigan and Wisconsin. In an Arbor. One of the biggest games of the day. I, I would say one of the three big big games along with George LSU and Washington, Oregon, Dory, Mel ESPN, radio, ESPN app, great to have you hanging out with us. We're always presented by progressive insurance and we know hit the shell Pennzoil performance line. Joel Anderson of ESPN dot com. In Ann Arbor getting ready for this one, Michigan, Wisconsin. And these are two teams. Joel, like personally, I can't quite figure out, you know, how does Wisconsin get pushed around by BYU and that's still the only game they've lost. They gave up five hundred yards of to Nebraska team. That's still a converts I win. That came last week, Michigan defensively, we know is really good, but where are they? Offense? Ity. What's the biggest mystery surrounding these teams to you in this game? Well, I mean, you go back to that. Wisconsin. Game on there was there was constant BYU and I, I'm sure maybe I'm being a little myopic here, but that is almost inexplicable result that college football. All this yet. Kansin coming into the seasonal stocks have been a national title contender for you to run the ball, being able to defend around and BYU had the way with them. I, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. So I think we really like, I think people have -cluded. Michigan is really good if you go back to their only loss. Like if you think about it in context. Now losing about touchdown to Notre Dame does not sound like a bad loss anymore. Especially consider that they were breaking shaped Patterson, but like Wisconsin is who they are, like, how they're going to hold up in doing. They played really poorly. I guess it seems that are not great. I mean, even play well against the brass, as you mentioned last week, I think we're gonna find out a lot about today. Joe, you look at that defense, Jim, Leonard defensive coordinator is a heck of a defensive mind, but the personnel there unfortunately and been what you would have thought it would be because of injuries are banged up on the defensive line. Coda Dixon on the back end banged up their defense right now. Eighty. Third per carry average allowed. They only right now generated as a team, five sacks. That's the recipe. Disaster against as Michigan. Offense has talent with Higdon coming on. Patterson throwing the football Joel hat is Wisconsin's defense allows badger team to hang in this football game. Limit big plays and hope that again to make mistakes, right. I mean, I, I'm up here in Michigan, the weather, the weather's earned a little bit yesterday. So it's raining cold outside. That's kind of kind of whether that you know is amenable to people that can create turnover. So you know if Wisconsin can like horse Michigan into playing, you know, playing along field having to make log drives, maybe they can slow them down. But I mean, then Wisconsin going to be missing their starting safety for the first half of their game. Nothing he was targeting call Nebraska. You're gonna miss the first half and then start defensive end they allowed built so they, they were already banged up to more started coming into this game. So I didn't really bode well, he SPN dot com. Joel Anderson in Ann Arbor. Joel appreciate your time. Thanks man. Hey, my pleasure. All right, so Wisconsin at Michigan, that's that's. We're gonna learn something about these teams, the losers done. There's no two loss team out of the big ten going to the playoffs so we can. We can. We can dispatch whoever does not win this game, and let's face it. Dr. If Michigan is a final four team, you got to win this game. You got to be doing this game decisively and you gotta show kind of flex your muscle. 'cause you gotta team this wounded right now, they're down. They got injuries on defense. They haven't been able to stop people on a consistent basis, their offense. If you can contain Jonathan Taylor and they should be able to are they allowed to six carry Michigan? Does the strengthen his team, their defence? Okay, and that's what they do. And then you put the ball on Alex Horne Brooks hands and say, hey, beat us with very average weapons, and he doesn't have the big arm. This is a game, Michigan should dominate if they don't. I'm say, dominate, I say, win the game by twenty four points. That's what I'm on. That should win the game thirty one seven thirty one ten and be done with it ended early and say, flex your. SEL show that you are really coming on as a team. They gotta get a run going, okay. They came back to beat northwest, bless. They were desperate there to come back. They put out all the stops, then they beat Maryland. Okay. You was concert who's wounded. You get Michigan state and it looks like down, then you gotta get going that momentum to get you ready for Penn State at the big house, November third, got Rutgers in the an Indiana should be able to score a lot, and you get ready for Ohio State. You kind of pace it through. You can own a role. You get that confidence indepence state at home, then you know, state that's Yankees, Red Sox. Anything happened, throw everything out there. That's one of the best rivalries in college football, and you see what happens. That's the way the season has to go. But I expect tonight a dominant performance on the Michigan wolverines anything. Sure that don't even talk about them as a final four. We're talking final four. We're talking playoff mill. Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State Clemson does are the clear cut for best teams right when you're watching Michigan oral or or Wisconsin. I matter you don't see anything close to that level. I know Michele house headed comeback to beat Penn State. They came back to win at Penn State. That's not an easy thing to do. And if we're sitting here nit picking Georgia for whatever, I haven't run the ball as well as it used to which machine that's what we're nit picking here. That's been a dominant team. Bam has been dominant Clemson with the exception of the Syracuse game, but there were mitigating circumstances there at quarterback. They've been dominant like Michigan's not in the same league. First of all, Wisconsin right now is not the same league as Michigan Michigan's not in the same league as the four best teams in college football, so, and they lost to Notre Dame. They better be dominant if they wanna make any sort of a playoff statement. They had better see show us aside, and we have not seen. Dorian Melbourne to you by Pennzoil synthetics, taking synthetic motor oil performance to a whole new level, make the switch to Pennzoil synthetics today, how much should Georgia fans be worried about this LSU game today? Yeah, it's Dari. We're talking about athletes on both sides of the ball. They have it. Okay. They got guys can fly Radic hydrates green Williams is going to be able to lock down against anybody and eliminate one receiver. Okay. So you say the on tours, are you think about where they are in terms of their football team? Cole, Hartman right now more so than God. When is the key guy. Right? So he degree Williams take him out of the game. Then God wants got step up which he's had an up and down year and had produced the kind of results expected. So that's what l. s. u. does she will do what you have to do in football. They'll take away your strength and four should be this with the other guys and the other guys for Georgia pretty good, and we thought God will be great. He hasn't been. So that's the game where somebody else, God one has to step up and play to the level we anticipate if he doesn't. LSU can hang Joe borough, hey, you know, we knew he was just manage. And then he threw a couple of picks, and we'll see what happens now, the confidences been affected will bit which borough and Georgia doesn't get much of a pass rush. Can they generate anything? But I wanna see borough. He hasn't had this story. He's he's had to low completion percentage, but no, no picks now he's had two picks. Okay. Now in his mind, there's gotta be some concerns from confidence standpoint when you let that ball go. So that's what I wanna see borough bouncing back after that effort. And again is Georgia final four team of Georgia's a final four team. This LSU team you should be able to beat and they're the favorite, their touchdown, favourite for a reason. Again, you're the point in the season where teams have to start showing that there when you look at them the optics or they final four team just watch the game. That's what the committees doing. They're watching these games. They want to go high state. They should win this game and it's Minnesota by fifty five issue. If they their defense has given up yards and points. That's Ohio state's defense right now without Nick Bosa does not. Like a final four defense at all. Agree, agree that started frankly, in week one didn't look like a final forty fence. Oregon state shouldn't score thirty one points against a house eight, and it's kinda continued from that point on, we talked about it. First of all, two loss team has never made the playoff Auburn would have been the first last year had they been able to to to win the SEC championship game against Georgia. They would have been the first they would have been in. But this year you're not gonna get a two loss team out of the big ten. So Wisconsin, Michigan elimination game. You're not gonna get one out of the pack, twelve Oregon, Washington, and Eugene elimination game. So if you're looking around, you're saying, oh, we don't have a massively important, you know. It's not Michigan, Ohio state or Alabama. Georgia type of game this week. You've got elimination games, and that's what this regular season is every week for notary nation in every do not slip up against Pittsburgh after passing the tech, the test in Blacksburg. So there's a lot of stuff to pay attention to. All right. I want this. I'm very interesting. As you mentioned this before the show you said there the four rookie NFL quarterbacks. And of course we're talking darnold Mayfield Alan and Rosen for their starting right before that are starting. You have come up with. Comparisons of baseball comp to a baseball player, baseball players that are no longer playing, correct. None of our plan right racking my brain trying to figure out who they could compare to, but you're going to tell us that's coming up and by the way, this Notre Dame team. The college football playoff selection committee. If you're not already thinking about what I'm going to throw out there, you need to be SPN radio, ESPN app. All right. You know what it's time for mailman it's time for straight. Talk brought to you by straight talk wireless, best phones, best networks, no contracts. You are making the point that there are the four rookie starting quarterbacks in the NFL remind you of baseball players from on as gone by. Mike Antoni you are producer is dying for this. I'm going to turn this into mel's gonna compare to things every week. Well, it is true. Mike, what they every time on doing something for sports, they always want calm, who's who is they'll be saying, all right, Herbert reminds you of, okay, who does Nick Bosa remind you that's just in Herbert was a car, what kind of car? That's the kind of thing. I go to baseball calms I did it because one jump one immediately was automatic. It was like that's a, that's everybody in the world should make this cop to this player from baseball stamp way. Okay. Well, this one looks reminds me and immediately four just Clint, and I said, okay, what do you think? Who do you wanna start with gimme one of the big four you want to start with him this four that are expected. The be family, go with them. I'm going to go with the least interesting in my mind. Ready. Okay. Josh Allen. All right. I'm gonna go. Who who walked on Fogarty there for you. The question exactly. What was the question with Josh Allen coming out? Had he played anybody? Know accuracy. Okay. Just completion. I've Senate was right around fifty, five fifty, six percent Mark and he does ask them, throws it. You say, Josh, Josh. How did that leave your hand and end up there? How did that happen? If you've got to be more consistent throwing the football in terms of accuracy, who was a pitcher that walked one hundred and fifty two in one year, one hundred and forty four. The next year I'm talking about the early nineties and then but it's got into the midnight only walk at sixty five year. Not one hundred fifty to sixty five. It was Randy Johnson. Randy Johnson. Josh Allen is in terms of baseball, Josh Allen, hey, we hope it goes on like Jim, Kelly buffalo to get that team Super Bowls. Well, hey, Randy Johnson after not being able to it wasn't nuclear louche okay. But he was a guy couldn't throw a strike a lot and walked a lot of guys, but he won twenty plus games. Three times he had a twenty four and five season two thousand to seventy one walks two, three, two. We are seventeen or more wins in ten seasons. Let's hope Josh Allen wins. Many games does what for the Buffalo Bills. What Randy Johnson after creator, start off with walk after walk after walk. We'll see Erin after Josh canny get it done. From an accuracy standpoint, we said the same thing about Randy Johnson throwing strike. So let's see if Josh l. ever blows up a bird with a football like Randy did with the baseball. All right. So Josh Allen is Randy Johnson. I like it. Let's go to. Let's go to Sam darnold. All right, Sam, darnold we're going to stay in the Big Apple right. Okay. Say Derrick jeeter and say, why? Derrick? Jeeter he went to work. He never made noise. You never heard a negative word about their jacomb themself in a professional manner on and off the field. Okay. Wasn't physically gifted like a rod, okay. But steady consistent produced in the postseason remains to be seen. Now Sam we'll do once you get to the postseason, but I thought Derek jeeter for what he did in the pinch with the New York Yankees. That's what Sam darnold will do with the New York Jets. Professional doesn't make noise just goes out and Doug job. He's not for New York, Sam darnold. Perfect. 'cause there's not going to be any crazy stuff happening away from football and off the field. Minka Kelly, anyone. All right. Next up, let's go. Let's go, Josh, Rosen next. All right. Wish Josh Rosen. One of the most intelligent cerebral quarterbacks to come into the NFL in years. The most ever. I mean, give me a hint on the baseball player. Well, this baseball player played down here in the land of pleasant living. He also played wore the pinstripes. You got me thick, thick. Think we're UCLA think Pac twelve. I'm thinking of a pitcher who won twenty games once in his career magazine, like you seen considering all neither. Mike Mussina went to Stanford. Okay. Went to Stanford, Josh Rosen, UCLA's considering what's intelligent quarterbacks that come in and said, who was the most NFL ready? Said it for months. It was Josh Rosen who outplayed Sam darnold across town rivalry. It was Josh Rosen who says he knows more than anybody even coordinators in the NFL. It's Josh Rosen, Mike sina coming out of Stanford exactly the same kind of cerebral pitcher to win twenty games once but had a heck of a career with both the Baltimore Orioles and the New York Yankees. I love this is if you're just joining us, you're like, what in the world is Mel talking about earlier today? He said that the four rookie quarterback and the NFL currently starting each have a d'appel gang or so to speak or. Remind him of a baseball player that's no longer still playing. Josh Allen is Randy Johnson. Sam darnold is Derek jeeter, Josh Rosen as Mike Messina. So who in the world is was the first one based. The immediately was automatic thick about Baker Mayfield. Think about a guy who goes out there and lays it all on a line. He'll die. Ps Charlie hustle, right? Pete Rose. I'm with you, rose. This state by the way, I mean much career. Yeah, automatic Cincinnati Reds, the big red machine, Pete Rose. Everybody wanna play the game, like Pete Rose played the game. Everybody wants to play football with the passion of Baker Mayfield. The only thing I was concerned about what Baker was, what off the field would he be professional? They're intangibles on the field on that Lennon the locker room, everything practicing phenomenal with Baker, conduct yourself in a professional manner. If he does that Baker Mayfield could be phenomenal as Pete Rose was all those years in major league baseball. I was the automatic. That was the first one came to mind. Kind of spring board went from Baker and Pete Rose to the other three. You know what you can do with Baker, you can. You can bet on Baker. Okay, that's bad. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So there you go. I like it Baker. That's what I was trying to figure out who in the world. Plus you get right away. And I said that once they get that it's going to, but it's horse. Talking about when he Tycom like how far back are you going. I didn't go back. I didn't go back to. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, the youngsters may not remember if you got the sixteen twenty five year olds may not remember some of this, but I think everybody remembers, you know, I would think everybody remembers three of these four. Maybe maybe everybody need rose play, highlights of Pete Rose. You know, everybody talks about the guy to play the game, the hardest got the most out of his ability and let's face it biker doesn't have the great, the great measurable, either intangibles, Pete Rose didn't have great natural ability, but he made the most of what he had. He was one of the greatest players of all time. So there you go. And so I thought that that was a good cop, the way they played the game, you look at Baker Baker refuses to lose okay, he's got. He just he. He tolerate losing. He's not gonna and Pete Rose. Never did. Pete Rose played the game hard from pitch one to the final out. And that's the way Baker plays football I want. Now I want I want these calms to today's players in baseball, right? Who's your Baker Mayfield altuve. Who you mentioned, how much she can you watch that everything. One show a chance winch. Ace. Got a ton to fair by one. This Mel man. All right. That's that's. Oh, I'm sorry about that. I just saw Mike that you want me to go in a different order. Sorry too bad. You just you guys just keep on playing John Fogarty's instrumental centerfield. We'll be right. It's all brought to you by straight talk straight, talk wireless nationwide coverage on America's largest and most dependable, four g. l. t. networks. I, if everybody agreed with my cops thought was way off base with my calms. These are good man. You're okay with them. Okay. With them. Disagreed with? No. How could I tell me. Tell me nuts like that was something passive aggressive. We're going to have to deal with this during the break now. Oh, great. Ianfitz him and straight ahead. Next, he's in Baton Rouge. Being radio.

football Michigan Wisconsin baseball Notre Dame NFL ESPN Joel Anderson Milwaukee Penn State Randy Johnson Milwaukee Brewers Red Sox Baker Mayfield Georgia dodgers Pete Rose Mike Dorian Mel
The Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce Win Edition

Slate's Hang Up and Listen

1:13:47 hr | 1 year ago

The Bounce Bounce Bounce Bounce Win Edition

"The following podcast contains explicit language. Hi, I'm Steffan fats us, and this is slave sports podcast hang up and listen for the week of may thirteenth two thousand nineteen on this week's show co why cou Kevin arnovitz of ESPN will be here to talk about Kawai Leonard's for the ages game. Seven buzzer beater to lift the Toronto Raptors past the Philadelphia. Seventy Sixers in the NBA Eastern Conference playoffs. Joel Anderson now of slate. Welcome JOL will join the show to discuss the Western Conference happenings, which you might have already forgotten. We're pretty amazing to finally we'll talk with Rory. Smith of the New York Times about the crazy week in European soccer. Manchester City winning the Premier League Liverpool and Tottenham staging remarkable comebacks in the Champions League, Josh Lavina, slates national editor, and he is with me here in our C studios. And we remembered again too. Have me introduced the show. So we can unobtrusively segue to Josh's new book the Queen the forgotten life behind an American myth publication of which is just one short week away. Start your CNN countdown clocks. Thanks deaf. And we should also mention that the Queen podcast debuted today. Debuting today. Monday may thirteenth you can get it in its own feed. So please subscribe to that I would be grateful, and we'll also drop it in the hangup feed over the weekend. So you can find it there as well. Exciting stuff. It is exciting stuff. Josh, congratulations. Thank you. Hi, I'm June. Thomas one of the co hosts of slates game of thrones TV club podcast every Monday slate will be recapping the final season of game of thrones. We'll talk about every big reunion every major and surprising death who's fit to sit on the throne. And of course, what will happen to those dire wolves. We hope you'll join us on this journey to the end of the show. You can listen subscribe, no by visiting slake dot com slash game of thrones. On Sunday night and Toronto the raptors and Sixers were tied at ninety with four seconds to go in game seven of their Eastern Conference semifinal series. And then this happened. Got to be aware of the inbounder here. If you're filling. Yes. Off to Leonard to buy Simmons is the. Hawaii Leonard's shot which bounced four times on the rim before going in. And you can actually hear it. And the clip you could hear the bouncing. It was the first series clinching game seven buzzer beater in NBA history. Which is an amazing to think about joining us now to discuss is ESPN's, Kevin arnovitz. He was in Toronto for the game. Hello, kevin. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? How was it in the arena? It was exhilarating. So I feel like it's been a frustrating in season in the sense that I feel like most of our time is spent adjudicating officials calls and consumed with transactional injury. And so this is kind of been a revival you had the Damian Lillard shot, but then this one if you mentioned just the sheer magnitude in terms of the stakes there are these kind of instantly iconic photos, Stefan of by like squatting on the ground. He had enough time to actually get into a crouching position. He's stuck out his tongue which is blue. Joel Embiid standing next looking kind of depending on what voted I forget expectant or crestfallen. It's an instantly like kind of a hall of fame moment. Yeah. We should give credit. Rick Madonna of the Toronto Star. Mark blend of Getty images, both captured a very similar Tableau. It's almost to me. It looked like a like a promotion. Shot for a play. You know, when the actors put on their actor faces and Jason gay really captured this in his column for the Wall Street Journal, which is the reason that we were gifted with this moment was because of the length of time. It took the four point two seconds felt like four hundred seconds because shot was so high eighteen point two feet off the ground eighteen point two eighteen point two according to ESPN, and then it bounced four maybe five times there might have been some little bounces in there. I think five or six maybe who knows but four distinct bounces before he gave everybody time to settle the suspense built the central characters were forced to to wait and prepare to react. It was really an all time sports moment. Right. It was funny to had that same impression. I was asked to write a quick news story four hundred word somewhat AP style like given a little more freedom. But as I sat there in in kind of sequenced it out it that was that was a weight because initially I. You know, he's squatting, you know, Tom between pursed lips. And it was like as the ball in the air. And actually, no it wasn't as the all of the year. It was that was he got to do all of that. While it was carrying around the ir. So as I was just kind of rolling out that sort of the snap shots within the larger motion sequence. It was like. Yeah. This took forever. Comparatively speaking to most decisive moments of a ballgame where you're having sort of unpack one motion a a pick and roll game winning shot or whatever it is. And this. Yeah. Yeah. Took an attorney. So for our Canadian listeners that's five point five meters. In the air. I also wanted to note that there were a couple shots and NBA history that were series winners that bounced off the rim, although not four times there is the kind of famous Ralph Sampson fling and eighty six with the rockets beat the Lakers with one second on one second on the clock. There was also an Allen Houston shot that that bounced off the rim a couple times. But four bounces Kevin or maybe even five or six bounces. That's like, you know, teen wolf when he makes the free throw at the end two thousand team hoosiers free throw bounces fence around a lot. Did it kind of feel cinematic to you like some of the finest cinema like teen wolf did kill like that to you. It was funny. We they kind of an instant oral history. So I started talking to some the security there were like three security guards right in that corner. And I talked to those guys, and it was funny like between the moment, we left and went through the tunnel. Kind of. And I I got to watch the the raptors gonna run into their locker room off the floor and to start talking. It was funny. How it went from like three of four to five, you know, there was someone post kind of the pack up crew for the arena 'cause they were converting over. I don't know that ice converting to something. It was really loud. But but found that it was just like watching kind of urban legend Bill, you know, for a vote at that that, you know, go ahead and fictionalized why not like, but it was it was interesting like over that hour and a half. Just how 'bout I it became amplified so coy Leonard wouldn't have been able to make that shot if Kawhi Leonard missed a free throw leading up to that co I Leonard too very very. Famously missed a free throw in that game. Six loss to the Miami Heat that led to Rollins game-tying three and the heat, you know, winning that title and taking it away from the Spurs. Mrs big free throws Stephan. Yeah. But and I think this is under noticed because of what why did after that? But I wanna listen to another clip. Kevin. Let's listen to the call of missing the free throw. Because what led to co is amazing moment was Jimmy Butler amazing moment. I mean that was a game winning. I mean it was game time, but it was like a transient saving game saving piece of basket ball Ray. So let's listen to that clarity Butler loves the moment. If he gets the opportunity to take short by Harris. Harris. Tudo opinions Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler is interesting like there's been this real kind of game to game back and forth on him ever since that trade was made about whether he was going to be the guy to sink the Sixers or save them. I guess it turned out that the answer was neither. But in the kind of dying moments of a game where Joel Embiid was the the key figure for the Sixers. It was Butler who ended up making that shot for them. Kevin. What was interesting I thought Kevin is that look the two central figures in this game where two players who may not be playing for these teams next year. I mean, they were viewed by a lot of people as mercenaries, and boy, did they do what mercenaries are supposed to do whatever's thinking how apropos it is this series ended that what you really worked two teams in the playoff field that polished more all in than these teams like the fact that Kowa. Even wrapped or wasn't even massive gamble by messiahs year that the president of the raptors in that organization be they basically traded away. Absolutely beloved franchise store. Anyway, we use that term lightly. Damore to Rosen in Toronto really the first American born you said, you know, I'm setting up shop here. I'm staying here. I love it here. Even though I grew up in Los Angeles like in so acquiring coli, which is huge. There's no guarantee there's still no guarantee that he stay and then you have here. So they have this endearing core. And they went through the process and in all the Macanese associated with that. And then they basically say no guarantee that Butler staying or do we want him to stay with the by Harris? And so the fact that these were the two swashbuckler at the NBA final poker table. I mean, the two teams and said to hell with it. We're going to do this. And and if they leave they leave we'll figure it out, then we'll have a contingency. But no, I mean, we're we're going to go into these kind of isolated especially in the case of Leonard in Butler. You know, this notion that we we don't we haven't had that guy who can go get you a bucket like you just, you know, just the Butler bucket or quite a wing a big wing who can just manufacturer shot because of the playoffs you're off into never works. And you just have to have those guys, that's sort of notion. Speaking of the offense, never working. What had co ago sixteen for thirty nine. That's not horrible Kobe Bryant at one point is watching the game. I think he shooting a little too much thirty thirty nine shots like read that was an all time playoff record. I think except for elder Baylor once in an overtime game. The thing is also. Lebron in Kobe hit. He so quiet. Thirty shots at the end of the third quarter. Lebron Kobe never had that many entire game seven to put them respectively. When we talk about sort of just bald ominous and usage, it was probably the most kind of disappointed ball dominant performance. We've seen then games up. But what options did Toronto have Kyle? Kyle Lowry got hurt his left. Thumb was was said he said it popped out any pushed it back in. He was clearly in pain, and Kyle Lowry always kind of has issues. Yeah. I don't know about an excuse. I'm just gonna say she's PASCAL Ceac. Didn't have a great game. Marcus all is not a high volume shooter. Danny green shot about three times all game. Abaco went six for ten. He was like the only other guy who kinda showed up and what I think it looked to me. Like what really saved Toronto was their offensive rebounding. They were getting offense rebound after offense. Rebound particularly in the third and fourth quarter after Philly when I'm not sixteen nothing. Ron. Oh up seven, and then sort of kept the game from getting out of hand from getting back to a ten point lead, which is interesting because a they've been getting crushed on the glass, all playoff and be nNcholas goes with that massive lineup, right? Where in a league where we're sometimes you don't even see one traditional conventional big man on the floor. You know, Danny green sat most of the second half. We we have Markelle Saul and Serge Ibaka centers by pretty much any definition of moderate basketball Siachen who's a powerful word in coli. If you're looking at your scorecard, the shooting guard now, you know, this massive guy really small ball forward probably twenty eight out of thirty teams in this league and because address a little bit. But but that it short up something that was really destroying Toronto the series. We're getting an island on the glass, so going big a moment when the rest of the league is going small, and and you know, getting the results did that help with their defense down the stretch because they pressured Philadelphia into shock. Violation block shot at the end of the shot clock. Steel at the end of the shot clock in three straight trips down with about two minutes. Three minutes ago. Gonna talking after the game with some of the us as coaches and coaches for the Toronto Raptors, I think we're just tired of getting bullied from size family. I mean, they're physical team. They're great defensive team. But I think it was just like six games of just feeling outsized by Philadelphia's like enough is enough. We've talked about a bunch of different stats, but I think the craziest stat from this game. And we can and here is Joel Embiid and forty five minutes only shot six eighteen but he was plus ten meaning the Sixers outscored the raptors by ten points. He played forty five minutes, you'll note that the rafters beat the Sixers by by two. So the Sixers got outscored by twelve points in three minutes that Embiid was not on on the floor. I wasn't paying attention. I guess closely enough during those minutes, Kevin. But was that just like a coincidence? I mean, the Sixers clearly don't have a guy who can come on. On the floor, and and backup Embiid. But as you know, was it abberant that they got outscored by twelve points and the three minutes he wasn't on the floor. Definitely a little and in that respect. They're better team ambulance worn actually his hand like a boarding the presents. This is does continue Trent which they tried to ban out of experience the other night and it failed. They Monroe actually had an effective game one or two forget, which one you serious just become ethics of. But. Yeah, I mean they were defensively than anything else within be. He just he fixed the game defensively and trying to really kinda lousy offense Obsewrver and some of that was on death. But beat a lot to do with that. He's just exceptionally good at being where you're supposed to be defensively on the floor. He's massive heavy. There was one shot over Lowery sort of having a transitional oppor-. -tunities seeing. Oh crap. There there's Joel Embiid and the paint I'm gonna stop short. I'm gonna alligator arm it, and it was it was it was a crucial moment in the second half. But just a perfect example. I don't even know what it will look like block, you know, just like other MS shop, and it was essentially activism Joel Embiid possession stopping two points on two for one brick and put a bow on it. Collider's final shot was over a leaping outstretched. Joel Embiid who was in a look like great position. I don't know that Joel Embiid could have done anything else. Ben Simmons might have been able to do a little bit more. There was. Want to get a digitalize landing area. Yeah. We wanted that. No, no. But I mean again, so co I doing this over Joel Embiid elevates this moment, even more. Yeah. Let's let's just also talk for a second about Embiid crying after the game. And obviously, he somebody who talks a lot extremely confident and brash and funny and funny and cares a lot and Kevin. I don't know if you got to see him at all in the post game madness. Kind of what was your impression of Embiid? Kind of after the shell shocked and. You know, it's been a really emotional series for them. He's taking a lot of flack I kind of traditional in traditional platforms and channels about always something. And to some extent there is always something, but they'd be. But but I mean, the sheer sweep of this guy's life story expectations really demanding arket. I. I. I would like driving around Philadelphia for much of the past few weeks when they've been there. Just listening to one of their kind of leading for years like the stuff of Alex Jones. I can't even describe what our of listening to to talk radio and Philadelphia's like, but just the sheer expectations and burdens I placed on your money, you can take it. But he was just I think what Jim shell shock in a game that he did again as you head like as for big men chasing around a perimeter guy in a crucial situation beated about as perfectly as he could after plan with athlete shell shock and one of my favorite moments of the game. Without after. And usually there's this sort of solitary the teams go back to the corner. And then they come out and greet. And it was like, I think within thirty seconds. You know, Embiid was being embraced by Marcus. All this sort of season veteran who's just been the international basketball battles and and conference finals, and sort of now getting to be an elder statesman among big mandible league. It just kind of comforting that's beat per started to cry. And you know, all battled him for seven games is one of the better post bounds again a game. But we we don't see the mono amount of big Mandanas much anymore. And that was a real big one of the big kind of chestnut. You sort of games with the games in the series. And to see the sole comfort in Beed was just I, you know, I'm I like, the good sport schmaltz, and that was some of the best sports multi. Now, good luck to Toronto having to deal with s game one of the Eastern Conference finals, we'll be Wednesday and Milwaukee Kevin arnovitz. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you very much for having me. This week's episode of hang up and listen sponsored by Samuel Adams. While the other guys have been doing what they can to cut costs. Samuel Adams has been brewing there Boston lager. Inefficiently for more than thirty years. The expensive imports industrial beers. They're made as efficiently as possible. Many is cheap. Bitterest hops, a few us faster, fermentation, whatever it takes to drive down costs. There have been plenty of opportunities to cut corners and costs. But Sam Adams brewing process remains unchanged. Sam Adams brews with one hundred percent heirloom middle Fru, hops and lagers their beer for more than a month, resulting in glorious inefficiency in every step the branding on the bottle. When you're looking at. Beers that doesn't necessarily indicate the quality expensive imports. They might have fancy stuff on the label, but they often use cheaper hops or quicker turnaround on their beer, which cheapens it a lot. That is not the case with Samuel Adams, which loves that inefficiency. It's an every step the Boston beer company. Boston, Massachusetts savor the flavor. Responsibly before we get to our conversation with Joel Anderson about yet more in BA playoff goodness. I wanted to let you know that in our bonus segment for slate. Plus members we're going to talk to the one and only Joel about Matthew bowling the tracks and sation who goes to the same high school. The Joe went to and who is nicknamed white lightning for reasons that you can probably guess to your that conversation. Join sleep. Plus, it's just thirty five dollars for the first year. You can sign up at slate dot com slash hangup. Plus. We will get to the blazers game seven win over the nuggets a bit. But first, let's remember all the way back to Friday when the warriors and the rockets were playing in Houston with Kevin Durant sidelined with a calf strain, the rocket through totally going to win the series demons, exercised and all that jazz. But somehow that did not happen. Steph curry scored thirty three points in the second half after scoring zero points in the first half. He led the warriors to a one eighteen one thirteen victory and destroyed the ride the rocket souls for the fourth time in five years. Joining us now from the bay area is our newest slate colleague, Joel Anderson he is hard at work on making slow-burn season three perhaps working even harder at pretending to be a warriors fan. Welcome dole. It's great to have you. To be not pretending here. I'm really excited for the warriors Verein, and you know, just can't wait the Western Conference finals, which I know will be not competitive at all. So over the warriors kind of dynastic period. There have always band even in the years when they won the title these moments where just events of kind of conspired to like push them to their limits. There's like Klay Thompson game sex against the thunder years back. And in this case, you know, they only had like three hall of famers on the like Jeff Jeff Han Gandhi says during the game like the warriors are so undermanned like give me a break number one. But number two, it was it was like kind of true because the rockets are really good and not having Durant on the floor was something they weren't used to. And it did make for really great theater in this game and a legitimate challenge for the warriors, Joel. Yeah. No. I mean, it's interesting because it's counter-intuitive think the best player in the NBA somehow makes the warriors Mike, Mike, slow them down and. Pete them for being the best settles their best. But it kinda feels like that is I think like twenty seven in four in the last three years when Kevin Durant doesn't play. Which is if you extrapolate that over full season that puts you roughly seventy two win pace. And so they're still really really good even when Kevin's not dared. So when Kevin went out in game five, I didn't Inouye that. I think that that meant that the rockets for shit had this in the bag at the L while, you know, it might unleash something within the warriors that you know, that we used to see and see a lot more when we thought of them is like this dominant once in a lifetime team at that. We might see like a return to that we didn't necessarily see that game six, but we saw why that team is really really dangerous even without the best player in the NBA. They want seventy three games without Kevin Durant three years ago with the. Same core for then some Barnes, they they overcame in this game against not having Harrison. Yeah. They outscored Houston in the fourth quarters of game five and six by something like fifteen points combined to win. I mean, the heart of the narrative here is that the the warriors. No, I think in their heart of hearts that they can win the NBA championship without Kevin Durant. But they also know that if they have Kevin Durant. The odds of their winning the NBA championship go up by a lot. And so, of course, they're all going to say, oh, we need K D back O K D makes go what are we going to do? We gotta make sure that we fight through in place hard as we can for as long as katie's out because God damn it. Yeah. You want Kevin Durant playing for you. Because you're probably gonna win. I didn't I didn't mention in the list of warriors adversity last year like in they're down three two when Chris Paul hurts his hamstring for for Houston. And so this is Ben Lincoln, incredibly hard fought, you know, series over the last couple of years, are you guys laughing. You seem to add that to the warriors adversity problems. You know, Chris, Chris Paul hurting his hamstring was a problem for for the warriors. Now, I did not it's not what I intended. But I guess the question the question here is after the rockets lose to the warriors again in probably their best opportunity to beat this integration of the warriors. Because we don't know what's going to happen to the warriors after the season, the easy kind of answer that we all come to is that the rockets were weak, and that the warriors were never gonna lose how much of that is just kind of ex post facto reasoning Joel, do you think that there is something to this idea that no matter what happened if Steph curry got hurt? If the words were starting bogut and loonie and McKinney they were gonna win or did the rockets like actually evola chance. These were all these games were decided by six points or less. I mean the point differential. The series is total of eleven points. The rockets I mean, even though people know that that game was like really ugly, and you know, it's not going to be remembered fondly in the annals of NBA history. But I mean, the rockets easily could have won game one. Obviously could've went game sick. So I mean, yeah, I think a lot of that is revisionist history. I mean, thank is the warrior. We always think the warriors are going to win because they pretty much always do except for the one time. They didn't against the the Cavs. In. So. Yeah, I mean, that's that's exactly like right now, we're just trying to fit that narrative because that's what actually happened. But the rockets man, I mean, nobody has played the warriors better over the last three or four years in the rockets. You know, the rockets I argue they did with a lot of other NBA teams did not do which is that they looked at the warriors of said, you know, what we're going to compete with them. We're not gonna roll over in concede. The title just because they have K D. And I think there's something admirable in that. They just came up short. I don't think it means that the warriors like in their heads or that like the it is. No, there's no possible way that if that were true, the rockets would never beat the warriors. They would they would they would they would always fail whenever you know, it any point whether it's the regular season whether it was in the playoffs. I mean, you can't I if the warriors of that much more dominant, if they are really in the rockets heads like that, and they wouldn't even the rockets would never even be at threat. To them. But clearly they are in. If you hear the warriors after the game, they have a lot of respect for the. So I don't I just don't buy this idea that the rockets mentally weak that they're failures because they pushed the warriors to the limit in their done at the last two years, and they just came up short. But I mean who's to say that that wouldn't happen if they played a third time a third series of the rockets couldn't somehow edge them out or play them a hundred times would be ninety nine times. Of course. I mean because then you get the Kvant looney game the Kvant loonies game six where he'd go twenty seven and eleven in like eight, you know, he'd be remind too. So yeah, I mean that could easily happen as well. But yeah, man, I just I guess I'm just really sensitive to the idea that people that lose losers. You know, like sometimes you just lose. And there's no shame in losing to the warriors of all teams. You know, the rockets are way more interesting to talk about I feel like than the warriors. Although I do wanna get to Steph in a minute say more to talk about than to watch. But that is also true. But the round gets you mentioned the rockets being admirable here the Admiral both things about the rockets day constructed their roster specifically to go at the warriors. And had no kind of. I don't think they had any fear about it. They knew at the target was they didn't, you know, tank like other teams, and they are willing to press every possible advantage to try to win. And there is something that you have to respect about that. Now, it's not necessarily fun to watch, you know, them try to get fouled and then complain about fouling. And that's what gets to the fact that they're also there's something like very not admirable about them like their performance off the court after game one was ridiculous and how they turned the series into this referendum about the referees. And how they weren't getting these landing area calls and then just Chris Paul. I think has migrated from. Being just like kind of mildly annoying too. It's like a volcano of annoyance. It's. I don't I don't even know where to begin with him just like the constant petulance and the like, poor sportsmanship. Josh me, you're a warriors fan. This screen hurts me. But Stephan, you don't like Chris, Paul you're willing to admit it, you don't like hard and either I'm willing to that. I don't like watching NBA games that are supposed to be determined by the crazy f- lettuces them and brilliant skill be reduced to a referendum on whether a player seduces referee into making a minor foul call I'm sick of watching that shit. And I'm sick of watching fucking Chris Paul try to get that, you know, eight out of ten or but pose worse than that. Like did you see that play? Where Draymond is like hanging on the on the ram and Paul dislike pushes him. He just does petty shit like that constantly. Come on guys. What are you? What are we doing here? We've watched the NBA our entire lives. Are you really telling me that this is? So this is so aesthetically unappealing that I've been watching the basketball like I don't remember a lot about the Showtime, Lakers the Celtics when we've seen those game. Get sucked in retrospect missing funny, like at, you know, Kevin mccown's like, you know, missing six foot jump hooks. But, but in addition to that we saw the nineties we saw the early two thousand in shock was a referendum on officiating because it was like, basically, how are they going to allow people to play against shack? Like that was a big name. And then in the early part like the arm bar up down the floor like basketball at that level at that point in the season is always ugly in it's always a referendum on officiating in Phil Jackson. Jeff Van Gundy, we're going back and forth about who's allowed to file, you know, they're always working fficials like feel. Like, this is just with the NBA playoffs are. But like right now the rockets standing in for that history right now. So like now, it seems like it's particularly bad. But even then is it really watch. I just don't add it. Maybe I'm maybe I'm clearly the minority here. But is it really that bad to watch? I'm taking a lot of shots. I mean watching you watching do try to beat people at the dribble. Isn't that isn't that ugly to watch? Really? I just don't like Chris. I mean, why why can't why can't you just redundant respect? My hatred of Chris so lovable, you is this New Orleans thing something what is this Mr. Mr. Houston? Mr. like, totally objective. Casting aspersions. I feel like with Chris Paul. He used to be there used to be kind of a zen sort of balance in his game where the fact that he was really good kind of balanced out. The like, you know, you know, he would sometimes kick Julius Hodge the nuts, and, you know, but he like a nice guy like he does state farm commercials, and you know, you know, sometimes competitive spirit, but now he's gone older. And he's not as good anymore. It's just the the petulance to quality ratio is just a bit askew. Draymond green is big Chris, Paul. He's been hitting a little balls. He's not particularly athletic and been working the reps and petulant and yelling at people his entire like, basically that is the thrust of what he does for the war image. Like, Chris Paul has the image of being a nice did like. Like. I feel like this could this could go on for awhile. If we don't if we. On I'm in agony. What you guys doing this in a warriors fan because I just want out of fairness for the rockets. That's all. I had thirty five and Paul at twenty seven in game six so I guess they're. Well, they're okay. And also James harden says he knows what the rackets need to do to fix it. And they'll do it over the summer. So that's the reason to stay tuned. I wanted to say one thing about Steph curry before we move on also Klay. Thompson was great in that game. But there was just this. I felt like the conversation after the game. Stephan was all about oh, like Steph curry was disrespected and clay was disrespected and now they like showed you that. They're really great. I feel like that was a little bit overstated. What people are saying with Steph curry was having a shitty series, which was accurate. And then game six he had a shitty first half. And it's not like it would be accurate to like sit there and be like. Wow, Steph curry is like really playing at an MVP level right now, man that guy is so awesome. Certainly in the second half of game sex. He reminded everyone like this is what it looks like when Steph curry is the best player in the world. But I don't think it's like ridiculous to watch the first part of the series like separators missing a lot of three pointers. He's playing very well. Yes, he has one lot of MVP's in the past. But like, let's, you know, be accurate about what's happening on the floor athletes, don't always perform peak level, and he was probably heard a little bit. You know, we'd hurts to have your finger jammed into whatever t- jammed it into it hurts Stephon Stephan. You're like me move when Steph curry wasn't playing well and the scene from my girl where MacAulay Culkin doesn't have his glasses when he's on the coffin. That's that's right now, you're living that outings great. But Joel do you think sincere so concerned with fairness today? Do you think people were were being unfair to Steph curry, I do think that people were being a little bit unfair? But I mean, Steph curry is a two time MVP one time unanimous win like judging by the standards of the grapes and often, you know, nobody thinks about you know, if Kobe or Michael Jordan or LeBron, you know, any of those guys had the performance and stuff had they would call it in the same way. That's really just sort of the price of being thought of as one of the great the great in the game. So yeah. To your point. He did not play. Well in some of that was yes, he was hurt. But also the rockets really good at defense. They know how to play really well they work him on the defensive end which takes a little bit out of his offensive game. So, you know, in the interest of fairness like the point out that the rockets just also know how to you know, minimizing a little bit. But clearly they couldn't figure that in fourth quarter game six. So Damian Lillard transitioning to the blazers nuggets just clearly could not. You know, live up to the pressure of being gassed up on the hang up, and listen sway plus bonus Agnete last week had a really bad game seven. I think you shot like three for seventeen but his running mate, Mr. CJ McCollum out of Lehigh scored thirty seven and there is some like great kind of old school in BA going on at the end of that game JOL where he just like ice haute against Tory. Crag the nuggets best defender just like went to dribble to the elbow and just like made a bunch of Midrand jumpers in that dude's face, and it was incredibly fun to us. And then talked a little trash about it on Twitter afterward, yet gradients my ass. Exactly. Yeah. CJ who knew the guy from we haven't had that kind of edgy. You know, what I mean, we are? We are. We are. We are the engineers. That really there. Yeah. They're they're fun. That was one of the old fund fights on the next line. Is we drink drink drink drink a thousand beers. Oh. Sit. And I mean, it is in some sort of valley in the middle of Pennsylvania. Right. So make sense yet. I mean, you know, all the talk about how mid range shots have been devalued in this new NBA if a guy can get them off in score them pretty consistently. They do have value right in like CJ McCollum. Yeah. That's that's school MBA, right? There guy that could just get his own shot in get it from anywhere on the floor. That's like that's going to have value in the NBA. No matter what. And man. I just you know, I think back to when I heard about CJ McCollum like if Lee doesn't beat Duke. I just wonder like what his career actually being because I feel like after after that happened like he really of catapulted into this. You know, first round discussion became like player in like if they lose that game. I just wonder if you know CJ McCollum has to play his way into the NBA from like Turkey or something you know, what I mean that going a little. Too far. But I like I like where you're heads that. But I I would counter by saying that Lee high does never loses to do. It's like it's like the warriors. And the rockets it just it just never going to happen. So we don't have to imagine that scenario. Lebron tweeted Stephan. That's exactly why I don't wanna hear all that. Analytics talk in playoff games when it usually comes down to one or two possession games on the stretch. Just get me a bucket. Nerd come on nerd, just give me. To didn't they west take a shot against math in in the Matt does not work in the playoffs. Right. Always greater than three in the playoffs. Look if the rockets had shot twos instead of threes. They would've missed twenty seven straight three pointers against last year. That's just math. You can't argue with that. I mean, the thing it's just so weird. Because I do think they do they do have sort of a point right it like those shots harder to make the playoffs in to the extent that they're harder to make the two pointers. Like, you're gonna miss more of in the playoffs because of the defense because of the you know defenses are trained to know where to find your we try to get those shots. And also, you just gonna be tired from increased minutes and everything else. So maybe there is a little bit of a Colonel truth to that. But the thing is is that like bad teams are not gonna be able to like buoy Eunice like these are still good teams are playing against other good teams in you know, it's not it's not just mass. It's like good teams taking advantage of like would high-value shots. It's not like they figured out some sort of theorem that allows you to you know, game other teams, you know, what I mean. So talking about the nuggets a little bit should we? Yeah. I mean, who are they? They had a seventeen point lead in the second quarter. Then they asked what seventeenth straight threes. I mean joke it's was terrific to greater than three as I always say three. But they were completely reliant on him. I mean, they're they're plus minus apparently was pathetic in the six games leading up to this last one. And then. To not his numbers were crazy. But was there something missing on that team? I mean, this was good basketball. I feel like this is the correct outcome in so far as that Yokich joe-marie her. But really young right? Okay. She looks like he's like eighty six years old and Lillard and McCollum our old, but like they needed to get to the conference finals at like now. And so I'm glad as someone who did not have a reading interest. And either of these teams that it went the way it did. And plus we get to see Lillard as Marcus Thompson talked about last week. You got to see him playing in Oakland, as you know, that arena shuts down that'll be like a meaningful moment. Plus, we get to see Dell and Sonya curry doing some like, you know, I'm glad to hear. They're not going to do like the split down the middle jersey. That is always like deeply lame that they're apparently going to flip a coin and one of them is going to support Seth curry of the blazers one of them is going to support staff. Like, do you have just rotate for the Ford? I mean, how does that even work like emotionally? They can commit to this emotional in advance gonna one of them is gonna root against their other son, go cap and jersey. Yeah. In the cool out here you could wear like clearly you are hoodie over hoodie over warriors jersey. You know, they could just. Each wear the jersey of the other team under the like top kind of garment and then like pull it off and like a kind of dramatic he'll turn. But it seemed like listening to Sonia that they want Sath to do. Well, just because he's never made it this far. And he's he's he's right. You know, he needs motion support. That's right. It's tough being the brother in that situation Steph if they both rooted against him, you know, what I mean? Supposedly Steph, not in possession of any ego at all according test warriors fan. So. He would be able to get over it. He would understand without thirty three point second half yet. Cemented his legacy. So no matter what happens conference finals, we'll never questioned him again, Joel Anderson. Thank you for your objectivity and sense affair nece. We'll talk to again shortly out to be here before we get to our soccer segment. A little news broke today after we finished our taping. The New York Times has a piece out saying that European soccer's governing body UEFA is expected to recommend that Manchester City be barred from the Champions League for a season. Manchester City has been accused of misleading financial regulators is in terms of its spending practices, Manchester. He denies those accusations. But this is going to be a huge fight and thing that we will be hearing about more, and we did not address in our segment because it. Had not been an answer yet. And now on to the soccer. It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say that the past eight days were among the craziest in the history of European football on Sunday and Monday a week ago. Liverpool and Manchester City kept their Premier League title battle alive with late Heroux IX on Tuesday Liverpool overcame a three-goal first-leg deficit and beat Lionel Messi in Barcelona four to nothing to advance to the Champions League. Final on Wednesday Tottenham scored three second half goals on the road. The final in the dying seconds of extra time to beat. I XE of Amsterdam everyone breathed for three days and then on Sunday Manchester City after trailing early and Brighton roared back to capture the Premier League title by a single point in the table as they say Rory Smith is the chief soccer correspondent for the New York Times. He's based in Manchester. Welcome to the show Rory. Having me. Thank you for doing it. You were in Liverpool one night and Amsterdam the next for the Champions League drama. You didn't make the trip to Brighton slacker. But you did write a couple of fantastic pieces about the Premier League action. Let's start there. This was remarkable Liverpool. Lost once in thirty eight games and finished second to city, which one its last fourteen games in a row that just doesn't happen. Doesn't happen as being kind of record breaking season. In ways Liverpool have the third highest points. Total of any team ever in England not won the title, which is pretty remarkable. And I think probably hollow experience for them much of the second highest points total in history and football, the highest rain Manchester City last year, the winning streak is the second longest in history. The longest in Manchester City last year, we are we are in a special moment. I think for full certainly for the elite of the Premier League for Manchester City. I think that Trudell is arguably the greatest so the team of the modern era are being burnished. Every year Liverpool have have made incredible strikes. That's what you're Klopp was was at pains the point on Sunday. I did go to Liverpool is a lot closer to much. I'm want running. The the heat made the point that they were twenty five points behind fifty last year than at one point behind. He told you the biggest. Element jump. He's ever seen. Whether that's true on the show, but it certainly a fairly fairly startling closing the gap before those two this has been a remarkable season. I I'm still trying to work out in my own mind. I think is is what it says if anything kind of more broadly about about the state of the premium that you have to teams who have essentially been on basal city did have three Dame's early on whether relatively on where they they wobbled a little bit. They lost the crystal less than Utah. So they lost lost that Chelsea's while stuff kind of the elite beaten elite liberal too much about it. And they both been on these incredible rooms at the end of the season with the hasn't really been a twist. My my attitude said to me in kind of April that we didn't have to track. Every twist and turn go to every game and ten of right. The same thing over and over again. And I I'd be happy to twist into just it was a straight line. They just won't all of that game. Which is what we've not seen before. That speaks volumes them what it says about the rest of the lead is is maybe a little bit more debatable. This was a very dramatic title tastes in terms of the closeness in England was this. You know, the Manchester City Liverpool fight for the top of the table in terms of, you know, with let's say recent history of the premiership was the scene as one of the great seasons and England football was this seen as something that was epic and worth following and made this great season. Yeah. Absolutely. I think in terms of the talked about the permeate seasons since nineteen Ninety-two. It would it would be in the top trying to send. I guess I it depends one from the season. Whether it's the best of all time if you through it's not like. City championship. It's like the exact opposite of that. That was kind of that was kind of crazy season. I probably morning almost more engaging because you have this incredible story and then spur second and yet all of the teams in in crisis at the same time. So there was a lot happening. It was when that were twist and turns to that the this title rice, certainly would be would be that as as one of the best thing that gold standard is probably either nineteen ninety-five when when Blackburn one for much crazy into say on the final day two thousand twelve when city beat bunch of United in the final minute that that probably the two the two that would down, but this would be without without shut down. And then lower down the table. You had a a compelling battled for the two remaining champions Leeds bouts until the last week of the season. Relegation wasn't sorted properly. Until I think the second weekend of the season. And there was still a few teams in it kind of with say sweets to go so. We're a lot teams with a lot of things to play for which I think in late structure is is what you want you want that to be elements of jeopardy in two or three spots in table until relatively lights on. And we we probably takes pretty much every this year. So it would be that into of in terms of the best seasons ever. But what what was the driving force? Was this incredible. Just the incredible foam, the relentlessness livable, which is something we've saying before normally you get one team like that as we had last year with much to say and they walked the lead. And they win it by fifteen eighteen twenty points, and you would Meyer them. By kind of March is a bit like we'll already over. There's no point thinking about this anymore. Whereas this went right down to the final. I think fifty the second related Brunton in the eighth minute. So you had all but sixty two fifty two minutes of the season. Whether it was some element of jeopardy, and that is a is a pledge of you can't ask notable you pointed out in the times that city manager pep Guardiola just forty eight he's been a manager for just over a decade. But he's already won three Spanish titles in Barcelona three German ones with Byron to now in England with city what's made Guardiola. So successful. That depends a little bit on on who you ask it. There was a full that the walls made him successfully the play is he's had available. So he he was at the win when shopping and yesterday, no messy what kind of in that prime. He went to buy unit the Gemini perennially, but also the time he was probably the strong stored in your report the results in the champions. They didn't always buy that out. And now he's mentioned city. A little bit is at worst the second richest in the world and has been able to finish with with basically players place in every position who fit his needs. So you can make your case the the rightness is based on resources. I'm a little bit more of a romantic than that. I think what makes him stand out in a sport where lots of teams have lots of resources is his attention to detail his ability to to impose his ideas to his players. I to me was Mark fifty out this season made them champions is that they they haven't bl. Linked at all over the course of the last fourteen Dame's when Liverpool of this incredible pressure on they have been able to execute. And and when we think about coaching, which is probably somebody certainly in softer. We don't think about enough. I think the idea of coaching is that when a player has it tonight in a high pressure situation. They know what to do and they make the right choice and Douadi eldest players made the right choice more than all of the players make the right choice. And I think that has really shown through the season another thing. That's rare is if you have an all time great match on a Tuesday. You're probably can have another all-time great match on a Wednesday. But that's what we saw in the Champions League semi finals. And these games were Liverpool. Both overcame huge deficits were V kind of apex of what the Champions League was supposed to be right. This that you know, international flavor of it. But also the stakes and the quality of the game. Game and the motions involved. This was the best advertisement ever for the Champions League. Whenever you think. You think those jobs over lions on soccer continuing to be popular? Whenever you there's always probably the kind of things. We'll maybe we've reached the pay maybe not the dit maybe to eat it self you kinda worry. What what if people stop watching what people to now? And then you see Liverpool beat buffalo phone when they were missing to send that to the taxes and possibly to vessel three or four best players anything. We're probably safe for another few years, which is that there's no that horrible Coney cliche. But you Tom you couldn't come up with a script. If you put that in a drama. It would be thrown out for being realistic totally on favorable and slightly naive. But the the the sign of on a crumbling, the kind of myself who's a psychologist who has worked with messy previously described to contain favors favors that contagion the panic in when liberals still. Once and then throw twice, and you see these buff on the place, you know, the almost defining team. The last decade, not let's not necessarily in terms of how many won't book, but in terms of that that impacts on the value. You see them kind of melt in this told when you see the stadium become a participant. Observer and all these kind of coalesce and you end up with this incredible thing to event of of a weekend Liverpool not basing Boston to restore some pride but not in the mount recording. I think probably has the greatest European in livable's straight. But probably has the greatest champions Thome back of all time. Even if it isn't necessarily the most goals from was jaw-dropping, but have to say the Spurs the following night was was in in many ways more striking Liverpool in terms of historical context. The more impressive combat, but what Spurs store in the ninety six minutes. Just when it seems to had written the storm just when it seemed kind of. Away with it because they have been rocking for twenty some time to go from the noise of the arena to complete signing. When they when when thin that's it. There is no more time left. They outdoing was was genuinely kind of jaw-dropping in a way that livable. I guess because liberal built to a crescendo follow the path and they start early then they got to more. They they never on any thoughts. Not point with thirty minutes to go. Okay. Something's happening. It may not be the livable through. But there is there's a possibility that this kind of thing is going to happen with Spurs. There was no such time. You have no time to do that they strolled the final whistle went. That was it and you have to process all of these emotions all at one for all of that specialness, and for the utterly remarkable turn of events in both of those matches and the attention of drawn to just how great the Champions League is and can be there is talk in UEFA. Of trying to limit the teams that are allowed to participate in the Champions League. I would not be a level of team of club that might be allowed to continue in the competition in the same way that it has now and that brings us back to the premiership where this bifurcation or try for -cation leaves us with six utterly rich far ahead of the pack clubs who as you pointed out in another piece you wrote after Leicester City won the title in two thousand sixteen basically said there's no fucking way. We're allowing this to happen. Again, we need to double down and make sure we are ahead of the pack in even even greater ways. So is there some I don't know if it's a thread financially, or in terms of soccer or in terms dental terms. But is there some threat in the separation of the richest clubs from the rest of the field in the sport? Yes. Yeah. It's genuinely something I kind of worry about the UEFA proposals to change the way does the best example of it always the best helpful because those those changes have been driven by the an organization the European club association, which represents in theory. I think is two hundred and fifty of the biggest in Europe. But in reality is a device by which the really big your vented your pain same. So by unit Ventas, I seem land buffalo Norell Madrid wjm eight that wishes known they tend to drive it. They plan events gem. Andrea nearly had come up with this plan that the deficiently been rejected by but then you Eissa produce this document the times outside of which Baz Stockland resemblance to Anneli had had suggested in the first place, which isn't isn't a tweaking of jumping lead is a fundamental realignment of all of European soccer and Richard student who's the outdoor. Chief executive of the premise lead. And he's not a man who naturally fits the role of good guy. He came out. I think late last week and said that this was it was voted to the York. Major looks to be thinking of doing. This would effectively kill off domestically football in favor of a European Super League. Would it would shift the balance entirely to continental competition? It would it would ruin the risk of saying sock as we know it with her on the vine, and I think that there is this. Now there is now this permanent tension between the laid the big teams drive revenue everyone benefits from but also that they won't ever increase in to the piece of the pie. And this is kind of philosophical tension almost between soccer thrives on variety and drama unpredictability. That's why we all watched sports, which is we want the because we expected might happen. If we knew what was going to happen. Every single time. People. Maybe the Welsh people people would still Choon in the people who know know, what's happening. Wrestling will still what wrestling, but if you knew that going into a and don't into into Trump's campaign the same teams would win it whole soot, and you might switch off to soften needs. The riot. The old sports do the needs that unpredictability. But at the same time the people who who make the decisions the people who who have self interest. Do not light on predictability, they like knowing how much money that they light being able to spend their income as much as possible is the tension between something similar tiny, business and under form of entertainment. And that is something that I guess won't be resolved may well be that these these plans as we've seen them from you. I don't ever try to fruition. The the the leads the clubs someone stops it. It may be that another day and only stopped, but the the direction of travel is is in. Natural. We are moving in slowly inching towards the some sort of relate to a world where the big club say we bring the money we want all of it. Tottenham play Liverpool in Madrid on Saturday June first for the Champions League championship ROY Smith will be covering it. He's the chief soccer correspondent for the New York Times Rory. Thanks so much for joining us. Now, it is time for after balls and as C J McCollum reminded folks after his thirty seven point performance and leading the blazers over the nuggets he went to Lehigh the mid major school Stephan. He was a famous college player despite his small school pedigree because primarily high beat Duke in the two thousand twelve tournament. There are fifteen seed and Duke was a number two. Maybe the biggest upset and history of the NCAA tournament at the time that it happened pre UNBC and the second leading score for high in that game McCollum had thirty Gabe Knutson had seventeen according to give Kanoute sends Twitter profile, which is a photo of him. I think from the Duke game with his arms raised I wouldn't it. He is a professional basketball player turned accountant. Also, a follower of Jesus Christ. He last tweeted on March twenty fourth. No love for CJ come on Gabe to your ex teammate. He had a really great game March twenty fourth. Yeah. I mean, we should praise for not being on Twitter. That's actually a a quality life move by Gabe give CJ a little bit of he just wanna series. I mean Stephan. What is your Gabe canoed send I spent most of last week on the campus of Indiana University at the biennial meeting of the dictionary society of North America. We went on a road trip from Bloomington to Tara hope to see a big dictionary collection at Indiana state. That was cool. I listened to a Slovenian Lexicographer talk about making a Slovenian dictionary and attended talks with titles like how the F word was removed from Webster's third and examining sixteenth and seventeenth century translations of Spanish literature for evidence of antedated. We also attended a screaming of the professor and the madman. A new film based on the nineteen ninety eight book by Simon Winchester, if you haven't read it, the professor and the madman recounts. The story of the first editor of the Oxford English dictionary James Murray and William. Minor and American civil war surgeon who committed murder and was sent to an English prison for the criminally insane from where he contributed thousands of quotations that Murray used in the early years of the creation of the dictionary. Mel Gibson plays Murray, and Sean Penn plays minor. But neither of them will be promoting the film because of years of litigation involving the producers directors and distributors, which is fine because this movie, really sucks. It's not quite United passions are old favored about the history of fi. But it does come pretty close the room full of linguists and lexicographers howled at seem after over and melodramatic scene. They also noticed that the phrase begs the question wouldn't have been used in the late eighteen hundreds which wasn't the movie and Murray at one point mentions the times of London crossword puzzle, which it was pointed out didn't they until nineteen thirty. But let's get to the sport. It's fun crowd before he was hired to create. What would become the James Murray was headmaster of the Mill Hill school in London about five minutes into the movie we see Murray watching his teenage son Harold play. What the script says is single handed hockey for Mill Hill. According to the September nineteen o one issue of public school magazine, single-handed hockey field hockey, but you're only allowed to have one hand on the stick was played only at Mill Hill. So the Interscholastic game depicted in the movie was unlikely to have occurred. Anyway, let's listen to a seemed Harold has just been steamrolled by a kid on the other team who goes down field and scores. You're wrong. Squawking and take take a few breaths mine. The long run down the front see the boot complete PECH don't let employees in all right and trying to clean catch. How about you? Use of what? Good go boy. All right to get it Harold about your use of words because Murray's editing. The dictionary words are important to him and therefore to children, but my takeaways Murray is portrayed as had sports. Dad who calls his kid to the sideline to give him a lecture during the run of play in reality Murray was anything, but a sports guy Harald's daughter, Catherine wrote, a biography of James Murray, titled caught in the web of words, she reported that at the family's house at Mill Hill Murray, quote took great pride in the lawn and games such as cricket which might damage it. We're taboo, although he often won the master's race on sports day. She wrote a conspicuous figure with his flowing red beard and long raking stride. He was not interested in games. And if he came out to watch a cricket match he usually brought proofs to correct he preferred to join the boys in exploring the countryside. All right. So Harold shells, bloody Bolic's hell typical English IMP. Occasion. Right. Except that this single-handed hockey game would have been played around eighteen eighty three. According to the the first use of Bolic's defined as nonsense rubbish or a mess. Muddle. Confusion doesn't appear in English until nineteen nineteen the only existing sense for Bolic's at that time was of course, testicles herald goes back into the game Marie as touching scene with his wife. Who's also at the game, which seems unlikely but then he's distracted. When Harold starts making a run downfield. Sangram? That's it. I Murray as the loudest screamer there among other asshole sports parents who knows if there were asshole sports parents in the eighteen eighties probably Harold scores there, and what he says is how's that you and sanguine d- mules and sanguine means bloody. So Harold, obviously is synonymous ising to get around the refs threat to kick him out of the game for using bad words and also showing us that the Murray children picked up some fancy words from their dads work, which actually does seem grounded in historical fact, but mules does not sub for Bolic's or hell though at this point. Maybe I'm over thinking the script of this terrible movie. Many thanks to ben-zimra who writes about language for the Wall Street Journal and the Atlantic Benz writing a piece about the professor and the madman saga. Not only. Did he procure the film for the dictionary conference, but he also shared with me the script and some other facts about Murray? Josh, what's your Gabe could Knutson? So my gave can as gave conditons sometimes are is also about the dictionary in some sense really about a word last month. Emma, bachelor area of Sports Illustrated tweeted out, a baseball leaderboard from nineteen thirty seven that had the league's best batters listed under the header leading swat Smith's swat Smith's Stephan. Swat Smith's, according to Paul Dixon's baseball dictionary. A swat Smith is as synonym for slugger, a slugger is according to that same dictionary. A hitter with a high percentage of extra-base it's one likely to hit the long ball synonyms slug Smith sack dodger soccer, swatter swat Smith and swats men while it would be easy to get distracted by sock dodger, let's stay on task here. In the first reference to sweat Smith. Dixon says came in nineteen eight in the New York evening journal. But hark, hang up and listens favor website, newspaper dot com. Let's say huge number of references before that the first one coming in nineteen five pirates. Watts myth leads league in batting for fourth time. So direct Chester democrat and chronicle was a nine hundred six describing hana's Wagner, and so on and so forth. My favorite early swat. Smith ry is from the El Paso herald in may nineteen eighteen in the column strolls through sport Ville by William F Kirk I think that was actually the title of every old timey sports com. Strolls through sport Ville, our friend, William F Kirk wrote a poem that day title, div swat Smith and it reads and it's tire beneath the grandstands grateful shade the village swat Smith stands when to the plate starts parade. He'll get a lot of hands. They like the scout who hits them out there. Worshiped. He commands. The swat Smith is a brainy, man. He makes no claims to style. He knows that he can face the tea and swat the pill a mile the pitchers grin. Grows one and thin before the swat Smith's smile. The routers, stand outside the park where each hard game is or they'll wait this crew till he comes through the narrow clubhouse store they wanted. This crew close up view of the man of hits galore. They love to watch his easy stride as down the street. He swings. They love to swarm close to his side and tell him flattering things the swat Smith yearns to fly away and wishes he had wings. Thanks. Thanks to the oath swat Smith. Great for the lesson. Dow has tot that if a gen can slug the ball, he need not have thought that if we might with all our might the rest amount to not. Now. Stephan let us return to the present day. The most recent reference to a swat Smith on newspapers dot com comes from the Saint Louis post dispatch on March thirtieth two thousand eighteen which the baseball writer, Rick Hummel, notes that the cardinals swat Smith's fanned fifteen times against the Mets. The most recent reference before that was also in the post dispatch the previous March, it was written by Rick Hummel who said that Randall gray check has been among the most impressive swat Smith's. In fact, the eight most recent references to sweat Smith stating all the way back to two thousand three were all written by Rick Comal, Hummel was given the baseball hall of fame j g Taylor Spink award for writing in two thousand seven he's been writing about baseball and Saint Louis nineteen seventy-one. He's still to this day covering the cardinals for the post-dispatch in an Email. He told me I'm pretty sure I saw the word swat Smith's for the first time in the sporting news. When some of the veteran correspondents each team had one of. Which I was one for twenty five years later on would use that word and a colloquial sense. Normally when that particular team had some power, I loved it, then and I love it. Now, I love it too. Thanks for keeping it in circulating, Rick Hummel. This is my tattered Valiente after Stephan. You should Email Paul Dickson to let him know that you've had today. Did watts. You can connect me with him presumably absolutely they're excited to learn f- bidding Paul loves today. All right. That is our show for today. Our producer, Patrick fort. Listen to the pashas. Subscribe reach out tells about an anti date. Go to slate dot com slash hang up. You can Email us at hangup, that's dot com. If you're still here, I'm guessing you are intrigued by after balls about dictionaries, and you might want even more hang up in our bonus this week Stephan. And I talked with Joel Anderson about the highschool tracks and sation Matthew white lightning bowling get it because he's a white. I mean, he probably could already like competitive for making the Olympics in long jump right now. Like what point this year? He had the longest jump in the world. You know, what I mean like like from high school here that conversation joins Lake Placid just thirty five dollars for the first. Year you can sign up at slate dot com slash hangup. Plus for Stephan fats, s I'm Josh Levin remembers on Moby and.

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Million Man March (1995) w/ Joel Anderson

This Day In Esoteric Political History

27:07 min | 5 d ago

Million Man March (1995) w/ Joel Anderson

"I WanNa take a moment to tell you about another show Israel story is a national radio show and podcast that produces high quality long form storytelling about Israel hosted by Michele. Harmon the show is produced in partnership with Tablet magazine. It tells extraordinary stories about regular people living in Israel. The kind you won't see on the news or read about online Israel story is often called the Israeli, this American life including by IRA glass himself, and that's just it. The show presents quirky unpredictable, interesting, and moving stories about a place. We think we know a lot about, but really don't subscribe, listen and enjoy Israel story today. I WanNa tell you about a new podcast from wondering that is a hell of a political story from the past, but also has lots of lessons for us in the present it's called Bunga Bunga and it takes on the rise and fall of Italian Prime Minister and media magnate Silvio Berlusconi. It's hosted by legendary comedian, Whitney Cummings, and it's the story of how a master manipulator hypnotized an entire country. Now, at the end of this episode, you're GonNa get a sneak preview of the series. So be sure to stick around and you can find Bunga Bunga from. Wherever, you get your podcasts. So if you're listening to this show, you probably like politics and you probably like podcast till, you're probably going to love democracy endanger a new show from the University of Virginia and Tj you in Charlotte each week hosts will hitchcock and save vital nothing ask not whether democracy is in danger but why and what we can do about it here leading scholars and thinkers discuss losing threats that global democracy from thoughts and trolls to militia groups and authoritarian politics. The show is democracy endanger find it wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to this day in Esoteric political history from radio. Topa nine name is jody Africans. This Day. Sixteenth Nineteen Ninety five in Washington DC, the Million Man March organized by Louis Farrakhan Nation of Islam, along with a number of other organizations gathering was intended to quote convey to the world in. Different picture of the blackmail, a million men did not show up for the March and match will get into a little bit of the controversy about how many people actually showed up and how hard it is count crowd sizes but obviously a big massive gathering at a very interesting political moment. So here to discuss it is always Nicole Hammer of Columbia hello, Nicki. Dirty. And special guests for this episode, and we'll be our next episode as well. Joel Anderson of slate You hear him on hang up and listen their sports podcasts and he of course, was the host of the third season of slow burn, which is about Biggie and to Pock Joel, thank you for doing this. We've been trying to have you on for a while. So I, really appreciate you coming on. Oh thanks for having me on. It's my pleasure. Let's paint a little bit of the cultural and political picture of the moment and then talk about the march itself. But I read that quote Joel to convey to the world vastly different picture of the black male What's the flip side of that? What is the picture of the blackmail that the organizers of the Million Man March are trying to cut against? Well I mean. So we're not too long coming off the presidential election where you know the Bush campaign was successfully able to use Willie Horton as an example. Of like black criminality right and to scare people about the idea that you know black people sort out of control and then that leads us into the Super Predator air right where there's a need for crime bill people focusing on law and order and getting control of these out of control. Cities. Devastated by crime, you know gang warfare drugs, all this other sort of thing. So. That's the sort of thing that's going on in media like obviously there's reasons for why these communities devastated and why people are struggling in that time. But those are the sorts of things that are out there on the media, and then you also looking at like the birth and the evolution of hip hop out of the West Coast, which is sort of this so-called Gangsta rap right and so you're seeing all these other images of black people in gangs, this pathology of black culture and I. You know I was a kid I was you know thirteen years around that time and there was a lot of a lot of talk around hey, man you've got you've you've really got to. Put Your Best Foot forward you know make a good representation of your community and so that's that's sort of the context with which. minister? Farrakhan. The. Talking about hey, we need to really think about Changing the narrative around black people particularly black men. Yeah. I mean, this is just a few years after Bill Clinton's famous sister soldier moment right where he kind of tries to put a distance between himself and black voters by saying, Hey, you have some some personal responsibility which was his goto term that the problem is not just stomach racism but a cultural problem and he gives a speech. I believe the day after the million man, March where he basically doing the same thing he's like you have to understand why white people are scared of black people and black people need to change their behavior. Of other element of the of the political context. When you read some of the reports at the time, a number of them also mentioned obviously that the midterms of the year before we talked about it on the show, this was the contract with America I. Think there was a sense that the conversation you know after maybe Bill Clinton had been elected as the famous quote, the first black president that maybe the conversations about race were coming to the forefront. There was a sense of the new insurgent Republicans were kind of seizing the conversation away, and so there was an a an attempt here to center things both of you got at what I think is the crux here this question of. Personal responsibility versus systemic conversation so Joel can you help characterize why the million man march in this moment gathered and it was about image and personal responsibility and you know individual black men and the image they project verses some of the more systemic things that were also present then and continue to be president well I mean one thing about it is that it gave a black people and black men and opportunity to. Sort of take control of the store here right because I mean it's their event they're saying, Hey, look, we're responsible for what's going on in our communities where the ones that are ultimately the ones who have to deal with the fallout like whatever whatever the systemic issues are, whatever people think are so-called behavioral issues are we ultimately are the ones that have to deal with it and? There was a lot of that back. Then you know a lot of black people then and today still like we are ultimately responsible for our own condition and that we have to take control. Even if we live in poor violent communities, it's incumbent upon us to solve those issues. So you can see the strain of that conversation. Coming out of the. Fair Khan and and I would say that the INA. was uniquely positioned to do that because they were they've always been active in black communities over the years even going back to the sixties, they will working in prison to get people out and transition them into a different way of life afterwards, and so they had some credibility there in changing that narrative that not a lot of other people or institutions could. But on that question of narrative I, mean I'm interested in the kind of. that. The Nation of Islam and this March was was whether the narrative was sort of internal and it was we need to address our community and and we to project an image to ourselves versus external weaned to show the world. You know what black men are capable of a different image of black men and I wonder if there's a tension there where you feel like this event lean on that on that spectrum I, it's probably I mean I hate to not choose. But. I. Think it's both right because I think you know black people internalize a lot of the same messages about themselves that other people do right and so. You know there is a lot of concern you know black people use the term black on black crime you know. It's not that's not something that just was it foisted upon us by white people. That's something we say about ourselves in our communities so. I think probably organically starts with we have problems in our community. Nobody else is going to come to our help. We have to take care of ourselves, but you know as the march grew larger as the idea of it became bigger and they're going to come to DC and they're going to descend on you know the seat of power in this country they're also saying, Hey, wait a minute. This is also a a broader message about what black people do in the ways in which we can. Uplift ourselves without dependent on government largess or whatever. There's also a an interesting radical strain that runs through this because I could imagine somebody looking at this and saying, Oh, this is just respectability politics but one of the things that was organized parallel to it was the day of absence which was basically general strike saying that black people should stay home and they should focus on things like teach ins and worship services, and community rather than participating in the the economy in general communities that day and so I think that there is that broader picture provides a better context for all of this. Yeah, and. I mean it's such. It's such a good reminder that so often the like big splashy event that gets at the time or and certainly remembered many years. Later there's often a lot of hard work behind the scenes of that but you know for better or worse splashy event obscures that You know that's come many times throughout this series and we'll come up and in future episodes. That's why it's really hard to overlook the impact influence of Louis Farrakhan and all of this right and SORTA hits that only his rise to prominence in black communities in urban communities, but also continued importance and black and brown communities right. That, you know if it were up to anybody other than black people like, Louis Farrakhan, who I would imagine be marginalized tremendously right like the there'll be no way that he would have a platform nobody would listen to him because of all the. Very true and very reasonable critiques of his anti-semitism Misogyny, all these other things, right But because he has credibility in these communities, right? He's been there since for five six seven decades working with poor people working with people that are recently out of prison black people have come no Louis Farrakhan in a way that most white people just don't and that makes people scared because he did the he doesn't have to go to them for credibility his credibility comes from his standing in the community. So I totally understand why people were afraid you know to see. The see him Marshall Somebody like that I mean it's it's actually funny. There's the Malcolm X., the movie there's a scene where you know they say, no one man should have that much power and I can just imagine you know all these black men descending on DC and people saying the exact same thing about Louis Farrakhan. It's interesting because Louis Farrakhan looms. So large in the memory of the million man. March. I think we sometimes forget that present there to people who had been active in the Movement for decades as well. So people like Rosa Parks of Maya Angelou. was there Martin Luther, King, the third was there Jesse Jackson was there that they were all of these people who were black leaders across the spectrum who had different levels of acceptance from white politicians and from white people and that it was this kind of broad spectrum event in that way. But I think is meaningful and often gets lost in conversations about it From Farrakhan and A lot of the criticism around this. At the time and I think even in more in retrospect the criticism about this as a million man march and this excluding women from the movement I think has grown and grown. I'm curious how you've how you think that changes how we should view this what it says about the sort of nature of movements at the time that this was billed as directly as a male space. Yeah I mean I think that's just a problem of America right that women in their work and their contributions to activism anything else is often overlooked in force their way to the front of the conversation right and they're so eager to take the megaphone without realizing all the other work and we know that now like Getting better about recognizing that now particulates this political moment, right? The way the black women have been sort of the backbone of the Democratic Party or whatever you know. They lead all this other activism and community driven stuff but. I mean it's I don't think it would go down in quite the same way today because I don't think people would would accept that but I mean that was you know man it's funny to think about that was almost you know that was twenty five years ago. That was a long time ago That's that's more than a generation ago and so I think that we have a better understanding of the fact that men are not just out here doing this on their own that women are very much a part of it I very seriously doubt it would go down and quite the same way today but maybe I'm wrong I don't know. I wonder to what extent it was. A function of the way people talked about the quote unquote last pathology. It was always this idea of like absent black men and that was a very. Gender Segregated Critique and conversation that I think is reflected in the in the shape of the march would nick. That's quick quickest when you think of superpredators I don't I don't think people tend to think of women like they didn't right and you know. This was reaction a little bit to a sense of black men are in the political conversation and so black men need to respond to that in some way but. Again, I mean black women are the people that whole that together right? I mean. They're the ones when black man went to prison you know that whole down families and have to rebuild their communities or whatever. So it's Kinda hard to separate women from black women in that but I. I totally get what you're saying that you know. Black men in the in the popular imagination of America and White Americans in particular that they were the problem and so you can understand why they may want to come together and try to. Marshal, resources to fix it I am curious by this question that both of you hinted at of you know, could this happen today are how would it look today I mean to state plainly the issues at the heart of this have not gone away right you know. African. American. Poverty incarceration, the wealth gap all those are still there. So it's really about kind of what is the nature of the response to the issue So. Joel. If let's see if a massive coalition has happened a little twenty, twenty massive coalition of organizations and leaders got together and said, we're going to bring tons and tons of black people to DC for March so. How does it manifest itself differently now compared to this moment twenty five years ago who man? That's a really tough question because I mean the leader the so called leadership is so much more diffuse. Now you know what I mean like there's not there's not a few people that you can point to anymore like let's just say that Barack Obama happened to be the person. That everybody rallied around. There would be a lot of dissension even among black people about whether he should have that sort of a role at the head of an activist March like that right so I don't actually know how come together. But the thing is though is that we are coming out of a summer where people took to the streets in ways that have not been. In, like half a century so. Maybe. The thing is it wouldn't be such a national march right that maybe you know you're. These marches these these activists events would be a more regional in nature maybe. People have started to do that instead of thinking about making one big demonstration. We've sort of touched on that a little bit on this show that the era of the like big societal remarkable about what's been happening this summer. This fall is just the diffuse in a good way. You know nature in the way that you're describing and they had black lives matters marches in Idaho. And even. and. Even and even in New York where I live, you know I just remember the moment where on a given day there was one march in one neighborhood and then less than a mile away there was another march. And I feel like in in previous generations, the goal of the quote unquote organizers, the number one goal would have been like get all these people together right this needs to be one big unified in every sense, and here's just like, no, it's just going to be March is everywhere and I think is so powerful. So fascinating to see why it manifest itself that way and I. mean part of it is about a media environment right that you get all these people together in one place you can grab the attention of the cameras and you can show like a critical mass. But when you have instantaneous media coverage in all of these different spots where you don't necessarily need a cameraman and the smallest town in Iowa where emerges happening then you're able to. Demonstrate mass mobilization that isn't in just one place and it's more powerful that way right? Because Jones folks in Idaho are in somehow her in a way more representative of the power and the breath of a movement. Then everybody came to Lake New York City. To be honestly black people would not have these Marxists to themselves anymore anyway right I. Mean we've seen that this is a big a much broader multicolored through moment and we've seen like how connected are futures are too together right. So Black Brown people, Trans Trans Rights, LG Other lgbtq communities, all these people. We all see that we're you know we're all marginalized communities in that way, and so I don't think that it would just be a black march so to speak not way. Not On that scale right and and again, that was one of the more I think there's Amazing and heartening parts of this summer was to see that all these other issues I mean one of the biggest marches in New York in the summer was a trans rights issue and it was it felt completely natural that that would come on the heels of March said, it started around police brutality like if you know that people are seeing seeing the matrix to say and seeing the connectivity. All right. But Nikki your point about how you know when you're looking at fifteen tweets or instagram lives from around the country. It gives you the sense of a of a massive crowd. I think is really good and it sets me up to do the thing that I want to do, which is talk about crowd size back then right this was. The president. Exactly. But I will say because I am fascinated someone who worked at five thirty eight and thinks about data science and hasn't sort of soft spot for like rational analysis of things. The fact that crowd size still is like a bunk science and that people haven't really figured out how to estimate crowds of those moments where you just crowd size and traffic. It's like the two things that scientists haven't been able to figure out I I. I'm fascinated by that but first off, you put the number of your of are coming into. The name of your thing, it's going to set a bar and so there's maybe branding mistake there but it really was politicized and it really was contentious and there are a crowd sizes all over the place. The National Park Service initially said four, hundred thousand but then some researchers said eight, hundred, thirty, seven, thousand But then there were other estimates that said it was two, hundred, fifty thousand. So you know other than it was not a million to either of you care about crowd size as much as I appear to. As an inexact art, it's fascinating, right? Those are some pretty. Big. Ranges and you know again with the name. There is a kind of political journalists of gamesmanship that happens around this where it's just like well, if you don't meet a million, then you're not legitimate and your whole event failed where I don't think that that was how it was experienced by the people who were there. Also. Think that half million man march is not quite as catchy like your little young. Right. And so that that helps a lot. But yeah, I mean I kind of gotten the extent to which that had. I didn't I didn't realize that that was sort of the tipping point people giving up on. Doing crowd counts but I do remember at the time it being a big deal and I remember as a kid black kid teenager in Houston thinking and why they lying on why? They know that we're a million people but again, like how would anybody know it's all bunk right? I guess trump continued to be obsessed with it which I think is just more evidence that trump is sort of stuck in the in the nineties of the. Policies that world One Nice thing. I just want to circle back to something you said Abou- kind of the the state of hip hop at the moment and I'm curious about the cultural context here. Obviously, you reported out big versus to Bug I. Think you started to just in that series get right up to the sort of beginning of what's known as I conscious hip hop and I wonder Kinda like what the cultural context is here how that fits into the goals of the March and the unity that was trying to put forward your woman the march was really happened in a really right Tom for hip hop mad there was ship was a very diverse art a lot more regionalized, lot more I guess for lack of a better time, it wasn't. Taken over by like the big labels at that point like like it is today right so you had all these different sorts of rappers with different political points like. Political viewpoints. Public enemy you had NWEA ice cube, Jay Rue, the damage, all these guys that you know whether they were five percenters whether they will full blown members the nation of Islam where they would just consider themselves black revolutionaries. There was a lot of that and hip hop at the time. So it was really like a really good organizing principle, and in fact, if you go back and listen to a lot of the hip from that time, they make a lot of references to the million. Man March Louis Farrakhan actually today I. Mean. There are still rappers throw a little Farrakhan references in there right? Today. There's just not that man it's just change and I don't know what accounts for that. I know that they've been podcasts and articles written about like why that that protests moment hasn't really been captured into music today but right then it really happened at a really rich moment and I just remember thinking like Oh man like this must have been with it felt like to grow up in the sixties. Like my parents did and have all this protests music and there's momentum behind it and it's just not like that anymore and I don't I don't know if that's good or a bad thing. But you know it's the kind of thing that you probably could never recapture again to be honest. All right. Well, we're going to leave it there and actually you mentioned. Of of what was it like to live in the sixties is a is a good place to end because Joel Anderson. You're going to be with US next episode where we are going to talk about the late sixties and some of this stuff that we were discussing. So thank you so much Joel Anderson of sleep for doing this and we'll see you next episode. A lot of I can't wait to be back and thanks to Unicol. Hammers. Thinks Jerry. This Day in. Political history is a proud member of the radio TOPI network from Pri our producer researcher Jacob Feldman. Our other producer is Britney Brown. My name is jody ever again, thanks again for listening and we'll see you soon. Real. Real evil in America. Is Not White Flesh. Black blast. Real evil in. America. These the idea. That undergirds. The set up of the Western world. And that is Thea is called. Whites. All right here it is a trailer from one degrees new series. Bunga Bunga. From. The makers of Dirtyjohn Dr Death and the shrink next store comes. You say Silvio. Bogus Dunga. Bunga. This is the story of the rise of the BRASHEST billionaire turned politician. The world has ever known Silvio Berlusconi, the man who brought American TV. J. American real estate, and reality show style politics. He turned his country upside down and did it twenty years before it happened here? He was able to create this sort of culture around him. He struck me at the time as nouveau riche vulgar. Very Shrewd, very clever men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him. He said is a girl you're ready for the boom boom. Boom. Mansions in. Be. Youth the. Betty. I'm Anne comings and my new eight part mini serious Boga Boga is available apple podcasts or you can listen early and add free by joining wondering plus in the wondering APP. I want to tell you about a new show from Radio Topiary and Mermaid. Palace it is called appearances. Appearances is an audio mind trip by Sharon Meshiah about an Iranian American woman, the family she carries around in your head and the family that she wants to have Sherman's radio always blows me away. So I'm really glad that she has a full series. Here with appearances, it's kind of straddle of fiction and reality. It's sort of a psychedelic series very emotional, very intimate. This is the kind of radio that radio toby is around to make. You can only find here. So you know what? I'm just going to play you a clip that will give you a better sense of how special this series really is. This. Is appearances. You know Jeremy Knife has a Jeremy I don't know why. You're calling me and everybody's journey is different what? Are you. Please call your. Wife. Like at what point does your life get to be yours I don't know maybe never episodes drop starting Tuesday September twenty-ninth. 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Louis Farrakhan America Pock Joel Israel Bunga Bunga Joel Anderson DC Farrakhan Silvio Berlusconi president jody Africans Louis Farrakhan Nation Whitney Cummings Bill Clinton Washington University of Virginia Harmon Tablet magazine Nicole Hammer Idaho
Election Sunday: Podium Protests (1968) w/ Joel Anderson

This Day In Esoteric Political History

25:15 min | 2 d ago

Election Sunday: Podium Protests (1968) w/ Joel Anderson

"I want to tell you about a new podcast from wondering that is a Helluva political story from the past, but also has lots of lessons for us in the present it's called Bunga Bunga and it takes on the rise and fall of Italian Prime Minister and media magnate Silvio Berlusconi. It's hosted by legendary comedian, Whitney Cummings, and it's the story of how a master manipulator hypnotized an entire country. Now, at the end of this episode, you're going to get a sneak preview of the series. So be sure to stick around and you can find Bunga Bunga from one very wherever you get your podcasts. Support. For NPR, comes from nation builder software for leaders whether you're advocating for your community supporting a campaign running a nonprofit or even running for office there are people out there fired up to help you nation builder can help you inspire them to take action it puts your website crm communications and fundraising tools all in one place. So you can focus on your 'cause Goto nation builder, dot com slash P. R., X., start a fourteen day free trial and get an additional month of service free. Hello, and welcome to this day in Esoteric political history from Radio Tovia. My name is jody Africa's. This. Day October Sixteenth Nineteen yes. Again with nineteen sixty eight what can be serious injury Greek anyway on this day Tober Sixteenth Nineteen, Sixty, eight to black Americans. Tommie Smith and John. Carlos raised glove fist in the air as they stood on the Olympic podium as the national anthem played I would imagine many of you had this image in your head of Smith and Carlos on that podium at the moment head down arm raised. So let's talk a little bit about how we got to that moment what came next the legacy of Smith and Carlos and obviously sports and activism huge theme in Twenty Twenty as well. So here to discuss is as always Nicole Hammer of Columbia Hello Nikki. Jody and back with us for one more episode is Joel Anderson of slate. Hang up and listen slow. Burn on lots more Joel. Thank you for doing. Thanks track is my thing. So if You brought it up before I out. Listeners. Let me give you some context here. We'll just get this out of the way Joel likes to claim that he was a very, very fast kid ran track likes to claim he wasn't playing. Claim. Joel you have thirty seconds to talk about how fast you were. If if you bring it back to Smith and Carlos and talk about how fast they were running the two hundred in one, thousand, nine, hundred. Okay. I think I could do that. So in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty hours fast ten year old in the country I couldn't run at the national meet in Gainesville that year because we went to another meeting, and so we couldn't afford to go to that but I got a certificate from the. Amateur Athletic Union stipulating that I had run the fastest one, hundred meter dash that year in my age group. So I take that with a lot of, and you know what? In one of those meets the person that gave me my gold medal was Bob Beamon at the region, and so you know, of course, he was at the nine, hundred, Sixty, eight Olympics me where he did that crazy long jump that set the world record and was there for a while. So yeah. So that's how you get to. You did it you Paula? But you'll see us nine hundred sixty eight union two hundred right. What made you the fastest ten year old woman in the hundred I'd I rented two hundred in high school not in? These, guys were running the two hundred m. we were saying this before we started taping, but like their time was really good still really good. Yeah. I mean I think a lot of that is probably attributable to the high altitude of Mexico. Quite because a lot of crazy records like again like the aforementioned Bob Beamon I mean he shattered the. World record. In such a way that it took probably like forty years for somebody to actually break it again. So The Times that they ran which nineteen point eight is the time the Tommy Smith ran that day, which was a world record that stood for I. Think. So Pietro Mugniyah from Italy. said it in the Olympics of a few years later but yeah, man. I. Mean it was just crazy I mean the times they were running given the conditions given how long ago? It was it was an unbelievable that somebody nineteen point eight, three in nineteen, sixty eight that would win you a lot of meets today is a sprint. So okay. So let's let's talk a little bit about the protests itself, and then we'll back. Up Some of the context, and then some of the legacy because I think there are a lot of specific details about this image as lasting as it is and how as seared as it is and too many people's Memories I. Think There's also a lot of stuff about it that we don't remember just in researching. There's some real remarkable stuff. So jodie. WanNa talk a little bit about the other types of protests that were happening at the same Olympics, and even on that podium itself I mean I didn't know that there were a backdrop of protests going on in Mexico like even like then you know all the conversations that people have today about the Olympics about how a tremendous waste of public expenditures right Now seem to think that that's a conversation that we now have started to have. They were having get back in Mexico nineteen, sixty eight so they get there. And then of course, you know the the group that Tommie Smith and John Carlos, where members of the Olympic Project for human rights I mean they came in with. Some fairly you know ambitious goals like getting, Avery. Brundage. To step down as the head of the I'll see that's a really ambitious goal for a group of activists. Why would he do that? But that was part of their platform in hiring more black assistant coaches and getting South Africa and Rhodesia, and invited from the Olympics and. Getting Muhammad Ali's world heavyweight boxing title was so they had a really ambitious platform the all seems reasonable in retrospect, but obviously back then nine, hundred, sixty, eight, th that was that made them bound to run into some conflict by the time the the Games actually got started yeah and you know the image that sticks with us all I'm perhaps because it's so powerful we we miss out on some of these other images and moments of protests that happen by You know there was there was Jim, hines, who was the one hundred meter runner who refuses to shake Brundage's hand and in part because Brundage had been one of the people who secured the Olympics for Nazi Germany in Nineteen thirty six, you can understand why people would be hesitant to embrace him up. But even in the case of Smith and Carlos, they didn't wear shoes in order to protest black, Poverty Smith wore a scarf around his neck that represented Black Pride Carlos War beads to represent the people that had been lynched and killed in the US and so there's a deep level of protests that's happening here. That's not it's about sports absolutely, but it's also. Couched in a much broader protest movement that was happening in the US but that was happening as Joe pointed out all over the world in nineteen sixty eight. I mean it's it's interesting to think about the mix of the protests and I think we should keep this in mind when looking at current protest movement a lot of the protests was about the I ac- itself you know and people addressing the sort of world that they inhabit as people do and I think it's important when you look to movements to also recognize the internal dynamics within a movement and so much often that is the thing that. Is the engine behind the protest, but then obviously, the larger context purposes were discussing and I think this is where we can talk a little bit about the power of protests during the national anthem. I think Carlos and Smith New the attention they were going to get by taking the stand in this moment one detail that just jumps out to mutual is just so interesting. I've thought a lot about kind of what a protest during the national anthem means. For some reason, a lot of the reports point out that they faced the flag during their protests and it occurred to me that I wonder if they ever thought about turning their back on the flag and like. So many of these little moments of symbolically have such a huge impact but I think it to me it says that they face the flack right during their protest Oh. Yeah absolutely. I think the thing is, is that head they been? I mean they made they made a decision to go I mean there were athletes that did not go to the nine, hundred, sixty, eight notable among them. Cream Abdul Jabbar. Right he sat out the nineteen sixty eight Olympics at the time. So they went there with the intention of making a statement to their country and they weren't going to turn their back I don't want to. impute these are the motives on what they did. Right. But like I, think it says a lot that they were were face forward. We're taking on injustice in our country head on we're looking right at you. And so I don't. You know maybe maybe there was an argument to be made from returning turning away from the flag. But yeah, I find that to be really powerful that they've stood up there right there knowing that the entire Olympic. Stadium I mean. Anybody that's been to an Olympic event and sees like the. Way that it's laid out there I mean, knew that it was going to be extremely powerful I'm I'm actually. Surprised that they didn't think that they might be assassinated or like killed like within within whether from the time they left the metal stand to getting out of the Olympic Village or whatever because it was such a it's such a powerful moment I mean even today just looking at it. It's just you're just struck by like the courage taken for them to done that in. That moment. Yeah, I mean I think that that fear of some kind of retaliation or some kind of response I. Think Carlos at the time was saying I was trying to excatly shield my face because I didn't know if somebody was going to try to assassinate me for doing this keeping in mind that this was a real live possibility that protesters and Mexico had been. Murdered on mass right before the Olympics started that there had been political assassinations in the US earlier that year of Martin Luther King. Junior and of Robert, Kennedy so that fear of violent and deadly retaliation was a real fear and I think underscores the kind of bravery it took for something that today may not seem as risky as it as it really was will. That point about risk I think what's really important to keep in mind here and think whenever you look at an active protest particular around athletes you know I think asking this question of what is actually on the line what are you actually whisking here is really important and so you know with Smith and Carlos will for one there's this is reporting that actually the the. Had, sent Jesse Owens of all people to tell them that they should not boycott and they should go and reportedly Jesse Owens told one of the members of the US track team. You know if you protest, you're never going to have a job again and the guy responded already don't have a job. So. Thinking about kind of what are you putting on the line but Smith and Carlos another thing that people I don't really remember about them. They had aspirations to be pro football players you're not gonNA make a living in sixty eight I don't think as a track athlete but there are other places where you can make money as an athlete including professional football both of them had aspirations to do so and that was basically squashed after these protests as far as I can tell, right? Joel I mean they both got shots right? They've got but but signing with the team. Training Camp in getting a real opportunity is like real. Obviously, there's a distinction to be made there. So I can't imagine given how the NFL has responded to protest in two thousand and twenty that they were more progressive in nineteen, sixty eight about a couple of guys who you know taken a very public stand against their country in racial injustice in it. Right. But even beyond that I mean the Guy Peter Norman I second two, hundred I mean he's not he's from Australia. A hell of a lot too and I mean, he never really got back on track for participating along with those guys as well. Well. There's a documentary about him. Is that right? Or there's some there's some great piece about him that you're sort of looks at things from his perspective but yeah, I. Mean. Again, this question of like what are you actually putting online and what are you actually risking join me? I wonder how you think about that in modern context because I think that certainly calling happening, we see the price he paid you know and the risk that he but. Not that much later right you look at an athlete like, Lebron. James who is willing to speak out and I would say a lot of that is because he has his beliefs but a lot of there's also because he realizes like you can't really touch him. He makes enough money that he's not really risking that much by being pretty political and so I wonder how you think what you're risking plays into these calculations. Lebron isn't so much of a different position and and a lot of the NBA Gaza right because it's the league that's majority black and a league that. Extensively needs a black audience to help support the league right and that's totally different from the NFL where Colin Kaepernick is obviously not had his chance but I even think about Eric read the Guy who was Colin Kaepernick teammate was in the NFL as recently as a year ago but has been very public. In. Calling out the NFL in the country and. On racism in institutional racism and right now a year after he was one of the best safety in the league, he can't get a call like he's out of the League right now right so there's still a lot to put it on and even if you keep it within the Olympics, you've got Gwynne Berry who's one of the top female hammer throws in the country I think last year she made the metal stand at the Pan Am Games and raised her fist, and now she's unsponsored like she's lost a lot of money lost support of the. Hasn't received any athletic grant since protesting last year I mean you. You would think that we would have moved beyond this right? We would knowledge that people have the right to protest but obviously sports leagues and their sponsors showing you that no, we will still punish you if you're willing to. Take a step out there. So it makes what happened in nineteen, sixty all the more remarkable than me because they're literal lives along the line where it's just now it's livelihoods seems yeah. I just WANNA throw in another protester from the nineteen sixties here because I think it gives you a sense of. Yes. These athletes were risking a lot. They also understood that at these moments of Olympic triumph they had an international audience like they may never experience again in their life and they were going to use that moment in order to try to effect some kind of change and in a in nineteen sixty Wilma Rudolph comes home with three gold medals and she insists that her victory parade and Clarksville Tennessee is integrated and it's the first integrated public event in Clarksville in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, and so. You know there is this way that. There can be effective change but of course, as you were just saying Joel comes at such a tremendously high cost in those athletes understand that cost and they do it. Anyway let's talk a little bit about just the specific legacy of Carlos and Smith, I mean Joe what's your sense of how much they are thought of as? Forefathers are they counseling in this new of athlete activism or people connecting with them and what does it? What is their actual role here in two thousand twenty? Yeah. I mean, I think they're definitely forefathers of athletic protests movement right or they're considered that way I mean they've got a statue right down the street from me at San Jose state their legends I mean they've been documentaries of books written about them they've gotten. Their do somewhat but I think like with anything I mean that was fifty two years ago. So some of that fades a little bit. You know now Colin Kaepernick is the face of athletic protests in this country and I know that they've been in consultation with Colorado I, know that they've met and spoken with each other. So it's good to see that they're still involved Dr Harry Edwards who helped to organize some of activism. One thousand nine hundred eight Olympics is still involved in these conversations but it's a long time. I. Doubt Very Few sports fans today remember them in quite the way we do I mean I'm old. I. Of course I'm going to remember it in a way that a twenty four year old doesn't. But in time I mean obviously there influenced probably Wayne's a little bit which is sort of. Sort of said I mean also I, mean we were talking about this earlier. I think it would be really powerful if Tommy Smith and John Carlos would like closer if they were like friends and like they could travel together and go places and do events together but it just doesn't seem like they have that sort of relationship and they've sort of hinted that over the years right? I mean. They were brought together by this moment it's hard to separate it but I mean just because. Your teammates on the same Olympic team doesn't mean you have to be best buds right there was competitors, right? Exactly. Well, that also brings up one other thing. One of the little tidbit that gets lost a history and is sort of an interesting moment here, which is you know Nikki, there is reporting here. That is at Smith who claims that he let. Carlos. Actually win this race of the other way around. So, Smith sets the the world record and Carlos who is like the much more extroverted, much more big man on campus energy strutting around is just like Oh. Yeah. I'll let you win which is such a shitty thing to say to somebody who smoked you in a race right inside a world record by the way. Like Oh, I could have wine but I didn't care as much about winning a gold medal is Smith did anyway and and still to this day kind of Razz him about it when on the rare occasion that they're actually sharing the same space so maybe it was a bit maybe not but he has kept going for decades now but doesn't he also claim that if one than the protest wouldn't have happened that because he would have been so pissed off, he wouldn't have gone through the protest or something I feel like. Something like that by I don't think we need to take him at his word on that. The thing is, is that they were both involved in the same organization. Is that like he had not taken part in that other activism stuff and then just showed up so it it's actually to I mean Tommy's credit I mean, John Carlos is the one that forgot his glove that you know the forgot his gloves you know what I'm saying. So this yeah. This is another like if you do a close semiotics analysis of the food. One of them has his right fist up and the other one is left fist up because they were both supposed to bring gloves but. Someone forgot one. jokey giancarlos forgot his gloves and so that's why they had to split gloves. So Click left in the person whose idea was it was a Peter Norman the guy who finished second so I can just imagine them standing on the Infield of the track will tell me hey I got my glove Saddam not. Well it's a reminder that even remarkable people in a amazing moments who do just incredible things can also just space out from time to time and I find some comfort. Forgetful. All, right. We're GONNA leave John, Carlos, and time. Let's do a few of these also on this days which relate to do from time to time. So on this day in Eighteen, seventy, one president grant suspended Habeas Corpus in South Carolina while going after the Klu Klux. Klan. Good for grant. Imagine having the president wants to go after the Ku Klux. Klan. That's that's amazing. 1931 AL capone famously convicted of tax evasion the jokes are straight. Somebody gets convicted of tax evasion even when it's not there worse crime. Right but this is the famous thing right about alcohol they couldn't get him on all the mobster stuff. So they went after on tax evasion whereas you know in our current situation maybe Donald Trump's worse crimes are related to his taxes and they actually sort of do show show a lot of the the core problem. But yes. A reminder and then Oh and actually another moment of that was fairly recently was the anniversary of agnew resigning over tax pro you. On the show. But yes, another reminder that you can resign from elected office if you get in trouble if you have shame shame, that's a really important. Stretch missing ingredient. Nine, hundred, forty, five, the Soviet nuclear program was handed plans for the United States plutonium bomb from a man named Klaus Fuchs I. Don't know this person's name Nicky tell about Klaus Claus Fuchs was a Soviet spy who had gotten into the Los Alamos National Laboratory. He was working in the nuclear program and he sneaks those plans out and it's how the Soviets end up getting. A nuclear weapon. So quickly, it had been anticipated that they wouldn't get one for twenty years and they have won by the end of the decade. We've done very few spying stories on the. We've got to correct that we got to find some spy. That's fascinating very cover that in his my history classes. Did. They talk about Tommy Smith and John Carlos didn't get to that unfortunately. All right. All right. We're going to leave it there Joel Anderson of sleep. Thank you so much. Oh man it was a lot of finding got to talk about being the country's. Full Circle. So obviously you're on, hang up and listen every week and people can still find slow burn. What else anything else you got Brune? Oh I'm working on a long sports narrative project right now that should hopefully be out within the next few weeks. I don't want to say too much about it, but just keep the look on the hang up and listen feed because it might show up right instead of one of one of episodes come. All right and Nicole Hammer of Columbia thanks to you. This Day. Esoteric political history is a proud member of the radio TOPI network from P. R. X. Our producer and researcher Jacob Feldman. Our other producer is Brittany Brown. My name is jody ever again, thanks again for listening and will see you soon. To the right place to do this. Well You. Could see poverty. Of the man in America, they might play that. You've got it all off. Medal you've. got. Well. The kids around my blood. Group would. Grow afternoon thinking. Literary. Can't even go. Oh cool. All right here it is a trailer from one degrees new series Bunga. Bunga. From. The makers of dirty John Dr Death and the strike next door comes. How do you say Silvio? Bogus. Dunga. Bunga. This is the story of the rise of the BRASHEST billionaire turned politician. The world has ever known Silvio. Berlusconi. The man who brought American TV. J., American real estate, and reality show style politics. and. He turned his country upside down and did it twenty years before it happened here He was able to create this sort of culture around him. He struck me at the time as nouveau riche vulgar. Very Shrewd, very clever men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him. He said is a girls are you ready for the boom boom? Man In. The whole about. I'M GONNA come and my new eight part miniseries Boga is available on Apple podcasts or you can listen early and add free by joining wondering plus in the wondering APP. Before we go I want to tell you quickly about some exciting news from our friends over at the Radio Tokyo podcast ninety, nine percent invisible. They just published their first book, the ninety nine percent invisible city. It is a beautifully designed and illustrated field guide to the hidden world of every day designed like their radio show, but you know in a book. Form so you'll learn about those bright squeak graffiti marks on the sidewalk why there aren't metal fire escapes on new buildings. The story behind those dancing inflatable figures you see at car dealerships, my copy just arrived in the mail I am looking at it right now as I recall, can I tell you my trick for what I want to buy a new book? especially. By the mail, here's what I. Do I pull up a map of the United States and I randomly pointed a city and then I go when i Google Independent Bookstore and that city and chances are I will find one that will be able to order online and have them shipped to me and support an independent bookstores somewhere in the country obviously. If, you have bookstore that you like in your neighborhood, go ahead and buy it there or buy it. However you want the point is by the new book is called the ninety nine percent invisible city. You can find links to purchase the book and also the Audiobook, which is, of course, read by Roman Mars at ninety nine P I dot org slash book. Radio. X.

John Carlos Poverty Smith Olympics The Times Joel Anderson United States Mexico Silvio Berlusconi gold medal jody Africa Bunga Bunga Colin Kaepernick Nicole Hammer Peter Norman Klan Whitney Cummings NPR NFL Radio Tovia Amateur Athletic Union
We Will We Will Mock You

Nickel Package

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

We Will We Will Mock You

"The meantime show featuring Lenny is presented by t so official watch of the NBA shop at US dot T. So shop dot com. No back to the meantime show, featuring Lenny the only NFL podcasts where the term anonymous scout probably refers to a friend that Lenny made at the dog park do people still name their dogs gout like a very traditional dog names. Somebody recently pointed out to me that people are now increasingly give their children's super old fashioned names, like Gerald or ama- Amazon fashion name, but then they give their dogs like human names from the nineties like Jennifer, I've never met a dog named Jennifer Dan, this feel like this would have been a good thing to bring up with Spencer Arcadian correspondent last week. And so last week, you guys know marked the advent of draft season and this week we're going to continue with our draft discussion and analysis we're going to get real deep in it. We're going to drop our very first. I mock draft. I am joined by two guests today at the end of the podcast special bonus interview with one of the draft prospects who might come up during our mock draft, he's a top prospect. You might remember him from the Asian shrine on high noon that public and I built if you watch that show. His name is Taylor rap safety at Washington's a really fun interview. But before we get to that at the very end, I am joined by actually like Spencer, another former correspondent from the morning, roast RIP good pal. Mine senior writer at ESPN who covers college football. So he knows these guys he's written stories about some of them. Welcome to the show. Joel anderson. Thanks meal. And I'm glad I can follow the the white correspondent expensive. Do you have any thoughts on the dog discussion? I didn't mean to exclude you from giving dogs inappropriate human names. I've never really owned own dogs. But I did have sort of, you know, co custody Schick custody of a dog when I was little and not named Dominic after Dominic Wilkins. And I think that's sort of a nineties. So I can see that. But that was actually in the nineties, so wait to tell FOX how did this not come up on the radio show that you had a dog named dominee as I said, I just realized that oh my God. All right. Would you think it would JOL would be on the pantheon of human names that would be hilarious for dogs? Jennifer, Dan, I think Joel meeting someone who my dog pretty would joy four dog. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Glenn was also another one that I like or me your dog like an initial name TJ, but just TJ like not even explaining what TJ stance, vers and other move. So we're going to do a mock draft this week, and we're going to skip the mail bag apologies to people who believe in questions or views keep leaving them. We're going to get to them at some point on my mega mail bag. But at the end, we will do Dixon dunks before moving on to interview with Taylor. But but I I wanna just kinda set the ground rules. Explain to people what we're doing with the mock draft because there's a lot of different ways to mock drafts, you can try to predict what would happen if I was doing that style of mock draft trying to you know. Keiper, big board. You see on ESPN dot com. I would probably have all four quarterbacks in the first round. Now, I do not think off quarterback should go in the first round. And that's the kind of draft you, and I are going to do it's going to be a draft of who teams should take not who we think they're going to take. So is that okay with you? It's fine. I mean, even as trying to I mean, isn't isn't a secret to tell people that we sort of went over this little bit. And I felt that he's in this country. I felt constrained a little bit. But it's fine. You can just get into it. Wow. Well, already preventing against the concert to the show. So to that end Jolie higher going to go back and forth. So that we are forced to kind of make adjustments. If a guy we like is off the board, and I'm picking for Tampa Bay and Joel take someone for Oakland. Who's right above them that I want for Tampa Bay have to calibrate we may have been a little bit free draft to bring alluded to big cities. The friction is not is not. But before we get to the mock I wanted to take a quick second to tell you guys about t-. So the official watch of the NBA each one of those time pieces delivers quality performance and traditional luxury this graduation season get the NBA fan in your life. A T so watch the tea so krono X L is a great watch for those looking for a sporty krona graph with Swiss technology at an unbeatable price shop now at US dot T, soc up dot com. You know, I could have really used a T so watch last week while I was in Denver, and I almost missed my plane because I forgot to make an adjustment for mountain mountain tiny such a scam. What a random time zone two. Everybody forgets about it's the best time. But it's also the one everyone forgets about this really inconsiderate. I think to those of us in the other good normal time zones is their own ah goes I on mountain time. Does my attempted a segue? I'm going to take Zona. I'm gonna go first. So that's the way we're going to do this. I'm going to go you go to I go three is that. Okay. Your logo. I absolutely okay. So we're I I am Steve who's very well. Dressed recently. Cub. I notice looking good these Steve, but really feels like I'm actually cliff Kingsbury because cliff kings pick, and I'm gonna take Murray and we're operating under the should construct and that does throw a little wretchedness like I'm taking very in part because I think they're going to take out, and I think they should take because they want because they think he's the better quarterback because cliff Kingsbury wants to build around him. And I think if you're an NFL team and you like a quarterback and you want to build around him take that quarterback, right? So I'm not sure I've talked way too much on this podcast. Josh rosen. So I'm going to skip over that. I think people are a little bit overly critical of him and unfair about it taking Maria number one dole to me, you know, you'd want to get proper value for Josh Rosen. I'm not sure. If that means you trade him now idea would be to get say Washington's pick at twelve or fifteen rather. But it's not clear if that's going to happen. I just want to ask you before we kinda talk about Cuyler. Like, would you? Hold onto Josh Rosen. Maybe into the preseason to try to get more value would even hold onto him for an entire year. Or do you think you want to get him out the door? So you can focus on Cuyler Zona. I think you wanna get rid of just like there's no friction. There's no confusion. You don't wanna go into camp with like that Robert Griffin cousins sort of situation even though they were both in the same draft. So I just kind of feel like you just don't want anybody looking over their shoulder. You don't want any bouts about which the actual direction of franchise here. Even I mean, they're legitimate questions about the direction of the franchise. You just don't want that over anybody paid. You don't want Kyle, you know, answering questions about Josh. So yeah, I look to get rid of Joshua soon as possible to problem, and it's not this is not a reflection of Kyla. I just and I know you said you talked about Josh lot. I just think Josh isn't as bad as everybody said, he wasn't in fact, if you'd asked me this question last year, I thought he was the best prospect going into the draft last year the best quarterback prospect really just giving us. Oh, yeah. I thought that like this in terms of fit in the NFL like, you know, people talk so much. About us intelligence. But I think they actually are like he has like really good football. He has a beautiful arm didn't work with a lot at UCLA. So was very productive and kept him in a lot of games. I just think that there's a lot there. Maybe it wasn't meant to work. But I don't know. We'll I'm not laughing at you take. I'm just laughing at the fact this podcast get sidetracked by praising Josh Rosen, literally defending him because censoring I had like a twenty minute digression last week defending him defending the situation in college defending his horrible situation last year and the world situation is my concern about taking Cuyler at not getting another first round pick or another high pick just because he is walking into a very bad situation team needs. Why the whole offensive line is a disaster. Haven't knows they could use Nick boasts or polished pass rusher. They need wide receivers. They could use a tight end. The cardinals have so many needs across the board. Which is why I think the Kyle thing isn't. Hundred percent obvious because men if they could get some sort of pick package or something this team has so much building to do. And I'm starting to talk myself out of it. So I'm not I'm just let's take. For number two. So I know it was posted do what the contract that is traffic I'm supposed to take Nick Bosa. But I'm not gonna take it. I'm gonna take it Oliver for the Cisco forty Niners. And it's because he is ridiculous. And I mean, you got sucked about this on the podcast last week. But we just go back to like two years ago when everybody realized Oliver is going to be the number one pick when it comes out that was always like foot of the consensus around this dude in all of a sudden, we get to the eve of the draft is like. I don't know. Maybe he's maybe he's not big enough. Maybe you know, we don't know. Exactly. What position he can play in the NFL? And I'm just like, dude. He's a grenade. He's rolling alive live grenade on the line of scrimmage every play. And I think both is fine. And I'm sure he's going to get drafted here can you picks or so, but I just think that Oliver is like the best player on the board and the forty Niners. They have the need the defensive line that can add him to the mix. They have like a pretty bad pass west last year. So I think the dollar for that and coming out here to the bay. And we welcome you as he Sonian. So you're insane. It should be Nick Bosa, but I love at all of her, and I get it. And by the way, so the Niners there is some complexity there in terms of their defensive line, and they've been trying to draft there for years and out of the guys they've taken divorce Buckner is star to me. Right on the inside there. And my feeling going into free agency was they really needed an outside pass rusher. But they did sign d Ford. So it's not beyond the pale that they would take another interior guy, especially one as talented as that Oliver. I would take Nick Bowes personally. But it's not it's not crazy. The thing is too with Oliver is that he's he's versatile. I've seen somebody drafts and like draft breakdowns and say what hey if it doesn't work out. Maybe he can move to inside linebacker, whatever. And I'm just like, well, I mean, if he can potentially do that like why can't he play it all the positions on the defensive line? All right. So I'm Mike McCann. I'm in the jets breath room, and I just saw tonight or stick at all. And I'm crying tears of joy, and we're high fiving because we make those humane. So. We spent a lot of time talking about Nick Botha on this podcast. And how unfortunately is best comp is brother and feels lazy. But it's true. He I guess Joe is a little bit more athletic perhaps. He's bigger, right. But but Nick, I think is faster and high floor guy. Plug and play has all the moves and the jets need a pass rusher. So we are delighted in the middle wherever. My floor. Most feeling I mean, this if it isn't it was Nick Jackson or Nick Johnson or Nick, Bella czar, like would still think that he would be regarded to I think he would still be considered a top pick. Yeah. I'm not as impressed with Nick both everybody'll. I love it. I could be wrong on this. But I'm just I feel like if you had a different last name, then we wouldn't be like, oh, well, you definitely going to dollars should go all of it. Which is why GM the forty Niners took him. I. Let's move on. Because we've talked a lot about NATO's. I'm gonna get guys. We haven't talked about who will the raiders who should the raiders take it for. Why wouldn't they take Josh Allen? I mean, so you got Mike Mayock? You know, putting his imprint on the draft hair taking a guy like Josh Allen, the good sauce alad, or if I like to call them the black sauce, Alan, he's you know, got everything. Yup. Yup. I know that you left him that you know, he does everything he can drop into coverage. He's good pass rush. She's hold up. We well the room. He ran four six three six four to sixty. I mean, you know, he'd been I twenty five twenty times, he's a great athletes the production. Is there the progress there, you know, being the top offender SEC the raiders ship? So lucky that he was very little to them. Number four. He is a delight. Okay. And to me, Josh Allen. He's talked a little bit Nick Bosa, and you said, hi flora, potentially low ceiling, don't, that's your words. Not my Josh Allen. The ceiling is Mars to me. I mean, the question to me is how is he going to be used? What system because that will go a long way in determining what his NFL career looks like because you're right. He he's a guy who can do so many things like these drafted by team with a four three who just wants to use him as a pure defensive end pass rusher. He can do that. Right. But he can also I think I mean, we think last week we talked about how he could play every position you could also really see him in a three four because his coverage. Skills are phenomenal. His run defense is like a little iffy. I think it's gotten better as he's learned how to play the position, but he started he's a late bloomer. I think played wide receiver in call high school. Right. So go back to the ceiling thing. He's so much to learn in terms of moves and his upside to me is through the roof. And I love it. Obviously the raiders they need to pass rusher. So that makes sense. Slash historically, terrible. I mean they finished last in the league and sex and third they have thirteen and the giants who were second the last thirty Josh Allen. Like if you want to make up for that loss that huge gaping loss of Khalil Mack. Like, Josh Allen is a good place. So I'm the GM the bucks. I'm delighted to still have a job. It's americal. And I'm also delighted because the best player available is Quinton Williams right here. And like we've talked about him. Also in this podcast Ebi. He's he's just awesome. But I don't wanna use plug and play stop using plug play because the rest guys are plug and play mostly. Just works. It. He literally is plug and play guy. Right. He is an AFL player. Already to me. The bucks are interesting Joel because they went in they invested a lot in their defensive line last year. You remember they added j p p. Alan Vinny curry the drafted via but they still had a terrible. I mean, they're injuries all year defense, but they were horrible run defense. Very little pass rush. They brought in tumbles. So it was gonna be some changes on the defensive line. My feeling is just if for a rebuilding team when they're not they probably don't think of themselves rebuilding team. But team that has as many holes as they do as struggled as much did on defense. You take the best guy available, and and we've talked about Clinton and how good he is in. How polished he already is. So I just think that's a no brainer there. Oh. Oh, get really lucky because in any other year Clinton Williams could be the number one pick, right? You can be the number to fifty depending on where to so a quick decide. I think I've mentioned this to you today that I think Quinton Williams agent on followed me on Twitter. You know, maybe a coup- about a month ago because I made a comment about him. And just like the explain it because I wasn't offending him. I just said now doesn't look like he has the face of stock. Okay. Like, he doesn't have a look you look at him in the face. And it doesn't I read like big intimidating player. He doesn't look when I was growing up. We used to call like big dudes just kinda look, you know, whenever we call it a dukes and quickly kind of have like a face. And it doesn't mean that he's not going to be great that he's not also, and you know, the while, but should be really have said that. And then I realized that she wasn't following me. And I'll know things are connected, but I would like to polish is even though I stand by the fact that you have to do for the face. So he has very sweet kind of teddy bear face. I would be. Termite us. And it doesn't help that in the first picture. I pulled up he has braces that really throws me off. But you only reminds me Claes Campbell has a face like that dole plays Cambodia. He wasn't immediately came into the way that he got to career, right? And that that can happen to Quinto quitting means young too. I think was twenty one years old baby. Just turned twenty one. So yeah, maybe he's still growing into his face. But it just seems very young. You've got the next pick Gettleman. A do. I'm I'm David gentleman and people tried to trade, you know, the sandwich bag of doughnuts. And you know, turned all that down. And I know that people think that I should take Dwayne half gives here. Right. Like that's seen a lot of mock drafts that say, hey, well, you know, allow manning a terrible Armitt. He's scared now, he's old and terrible. And he's worse than cover minute. But I guess they should like we building or not I think they are. But I also don't think that have gains is do you want to build around quite so I'm gonna take months sweat at the number six pick when the giants. Has been great. They've had great pass rush. They've had you know, these great defensive end PP's straight hand, you know, you know, they've they've had like these great defensive lines in the past. And I think that this is sort of in keeping with that your dishes, even though that's sort of dumb. But I still think like other giants six great. They have great defensive linemen. And you know, he's he's got all the tools like you're talking about a six foot six two hundred sixty pound guy who ran a four four Flint. And I mean, that's absurd. But I mean, it's like hard to like, I can't believe they're making football players like that. Now, you know what I mean like didn't even seem real. And so I'm just like why not why not try this guy? Why not try, you know, this really athletic tie-sealing most floor like Montesquieu it? I agree characterization of him. He to me is sort of the beginning of that tier below Allen Bosa when the guys, you know, there's to me of very clear top tier? That we've gone through all of them. And then now you're getting into the Montas, sweat, Brian Burke. I think Montas what is definitely the best next best pass rusher available. He shredded the combine you alluded to that. But he he's not just a workout dude his production at Mississippi State was good enough. So that you shouldn't feel worried that you're just taking a raw athlete. I think he could still work on some of his moves. But I agree. He has very high ceiling and giants ABC just. So many needs. It's kind of hard to know where to begin in. I like the idea of not taking a quarterback. I mean, this kind of this is much beer discussion. Windy, take the quarterback. It's not just about like where you like the quarterback. And I realize I'm kind of undermining what I said earlier about taking a few him. But you don't want a quarter about walking into the situation in New York. And obviously they really love Haskins. He probably wouldn't start. But to me. This is undeniably a rebuilding team. That's going to be very very bad next year. So taking the best skiable makes a lot of sense. So Jaguars are not a rebuilding team. At least not they don't view themselves that way, I don't feel that way they paid a ton for foles this year. There's some holes defense after guys of left. There's they could really use a good pass catcher few pass catchers for full. But given where they're picking who's available and given their issues up front. I'm gonna go offense of line and take John Williams, and I'm not gonna plug and play. Again. But he's the most pro ready of the offense lineman. I really the only true negative. I've seen is the size thing the length of his arms. I guess. T Rex arms, which is there like a half an inch shorter than the prototype or something stupid like that. And like there's so he's arms are under thirty four inches. So were Dotan arms. So we're Joe Staley's arms like they get. I just don't. Watch the tape. He's just of the various tackles. And this is not a great tackle draft. He already looks like a veteran to me both in past pro in his run blocking incredible. He really lays dudes out. So I think he's a day one starter. The thing about Alabama turns out a lot obviously a lot of draft prospects every year, a one thing that gets overlooked is like they tend to turn out pretty solid offensive line prospects. You know, they haven't really had eight bust that that's the camera. It's been okay. Andre Smith despite people making fun of him for running shirtless at one ended up being pretty good NFL liming. So I just think that like given that given pedigree giving Jacksonville's me I think this was the smart play right here. All right. The lions. Where would you go? I got a lot of need because the line. But I'm gonna go into white the linebacker out a few who we last crying at the NFL comeback because he ran a four four two of. He's amazing. He's a great athlete. I saw him play a lot this year. He's got a lot of poppies really violent. And the thing about him that Matt Patricia probably would like, then he's still learning the position he was running back coming out of high school shut up to north Webster parish in northern Louisiana. He was running back of high school. So you only played linebacker for few years. You've got a lot more going game. But you've got this physical specimen who as violent has fairly decent instincts. He still me. But those are the sort of thing you gotta learn with reps. Right. And something like that. He's a pretty good. If phone that's her in Detroit plan for that coach. This seems like a good fit for Detroit right now. So the Devon's Deadlight and Devin Bush. Yeah, I've been hearing all it's been all across the board as to who will go. I I to have. Slight preference for Deb and white. It might just be the horse thing. But I I love the way. He I think they're both really good. And also really modern, you know, like, it's sort of like the roquan Smith pick last year, Chicago like to have a linebacker who can keep up with running backs who can drop into coverage you can fly across the field who can sniff out play action is so valuable in today's NFL and white to me the dynasty fences a ways to go. And he's the guy you you build around. I do love that pick. Okay. So Buffalo's next and this an interesting one because there's a I praised their free agency. Earlier liked what they did. I was thinking about taking an offense of linemen here, which was a huge issue last year. But they did add on the offensive line. We talked about that during free agency. They added John Brown, called Beasley some pass catchers for Josh. And I still think they need to both to that area. But I am going to go edge rusher, I'm gonna go, and this might be a little rich for some people's blood. I'm gonna go Brian burns here. Oh, I'm sure he's a fine young man, but two hundred and thirty five pounds, man. But you know, hey. You know seen? He's little so don't. Who's who's the last guy? That's been successful restaurant pass it. That's how is he bigger than Leonard Floyd or smaller than later Floyd. Not that letter for business. Great success. But. So Brian burns. Yeah. He's very small and that's going to be the the rap on him. He's a pass rusher out of FSU. And he was he put up excellent numbers at the combine. But he didn't play like his size to me. If that makes sense, I realize his frame is he's got a bulk up, but he wins in all positions. He went inside outside. He plays with so much explosion and power. He's not just he's going to be labeled as just a speed guy. And I really don't think he's just speak guy and a really think. He could still had some moves to his repertoire, but I really think he has a much higher ceiling than any of the other addresses left Arkansas either they've got a guy who's sort of not quite model because Jerry was built differently. But like, he's not, you know, the typical, you know, six foot five two hundred sixty five pound defensive end that you'd want position and they meant hassle success with them. So I can see the looking at Brian bars and be like, oh, we can make this work and he's any fast. He's got he's got production. We can make this work. All right. Who's Denver taking? So I'm John Elway here. I with mother take a quarterback having. That's that's you know, that's what I just like to compile evac, but men out got Joe flacco. Now, we're set, you know with. I mean, he's best football is a head of accounting. So I gotta give somebody throats to and I'm gonna probably take TJ Hopkinson. Well, not probably I'm going to TV Hopkinson. We're gonna miss them to Denver and mountain time zone. So. Yeah. That's a pretty good record producing NFL tight end. Dallas Clark and San Francisco just got George channel. You know? They've got a pretty good record producing titans here that got two of them this year. He's no offense. We might hear his name later in this mock draft, and so yet, and you crazy athlete man by British jumped thirty seven and a half. Yeah. He's a dude. So yeah. Like, you know, at the C flacco, you know, getting really attached to teach Hopkinson sock loves his tight ends. So with the drew lock is available at ten. Somebody's gonna have to throw a body in front of John Elway to stop him. I think I love this. Pick hawkins. Hawkins is phenomenal. He does it all. That's just my takeaway. It's the dumbest note, but he he can already do everything you want a tight end to do. I mean, he's not he's not like a perfect runner yet. But he's got pretty soft hands catch radius is there. Sure, he played basketball. I'm just going to say that without even looking it up. He played basketball. The do. It's not feels right TJ do can block. I mean, honestly leg I'm not going to do a gronk cop because that's insane. In the same way that Aaron Donald comps are forbidden on this podcast gronk comes forbidden. But his upside as a blocker. I think is gronk which is the grunk is the best blocking tight in NFL history. So it's crazy. The tight ends in this after better than the receivers. We'll see if we how many receivers if any go in the first round, but I'm with you. I'm with you on hawk all, right? I'm gonna I'm gonna move quickly this because I think you're gonna have some feelings about it. So I'm the Bengals of Mary building team. Always dad sad place. I'm gonna take Skains here. I'm gonna do it. It's time. I'm like for. Okay. I quarterback they need to take a quarterback. I think and you could they could wait until next year. It's going to get pretty competitive. I agreed a better class the more. I watch Dwayne Hoskin. So I didn't love in college. The more. I like like about him Warren sharp front of the show put up statistics for the top four quarterbacks against good defenses the best past defenses and the worst and the delta for in Jones was enormous versus how they played very poorly against good pass defenses. Dwayne was not okay. Neither was Cuyler by the way, but Tyler equable or whatever. I to me just I know you don't want to just watch the Michigan game was incredible in the Michigan game. But we watching that. I was just blown away by how comfortable he was moving around the pocket negating his feel for pressure is ability to go through his reads. Now, it's not the most complicated offense, Ohio State. Right. But he executed it really. Well. And I just think he is the again web small sample size with him. But to me he is a prototypical pocket passer, you can build her. I think that's kind of what the Bengals wanna do. First of all, you know, less pay respect Andy belt TCU along. I hate you wanna move on so already like this. But you're saying it's already already. Yeah. I mean, just things like, you know. Small football input. That's on do. I I mean he had a great season. I mean, the thing I just I don't know what I'm holding against him. Maybe it's because mainly the same thing like with kala Murray. Like, we only saw and a year we never, you know, be get a second crack in college. Right. And so maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's sort of. Like my skepticism about it. Because the numbers are ridiculous. He was surrounded by talent. But he also made them. Yes. He he makes veteran shaky Barrett. Like when he took over for J T Barrett. Dickey bear was a great college quarterback. They still looked better under the weight hasta. So he's like, he's a difference maker. He wasn't difference maker college. I'm just a little bit skeptical. But I mean, I, you know at this point in the draft for the the second quarterback prospect. This was pretty good value. And yeah, like why not also the dude looks like meek mill the face places. Here facial analysis we need to bring you on the draft show. Oh to like a little hard ram of you like the to puck election to pop up an analyze every who's got the best face in the first round. Oh, really which looking for right? Like are we talking about like the guy that looks like football player we talking like, Alex Hanson, dude, looks like people would be around it 'cause much sweat isn't good looking guy. Right. Let's get him. And I'm like, oh, he would have been in the nineties RV video. Okay. But if you're looking for somebody that looks intimidating, and this is sorta town into I don't know people will agree with this with the whole package at Oliver. He looks like overgrown, Mike Tyson. Not like look like a, you know like he looks exactly like my. But like his framed the way his body is built keep this looks like they're huge like a heavyweight bucks. And so when I look at all of my type of not not like like, I said, it's not a perfect comparison terms of face, but just like the overall five, but you know, best looking to go, my sweat. We already know what I think about quitting his Green Bay taking at twelve the second Devon. Let's look at the second death and the plays back off board Devin Bush, I've been into sorta underside, you know, five eleven to thirty four, but he was at the center that defensive Michigan which was great until they played Ohio State. I'm sure people will probably use some of that film to knock it, right? And and and Tanakh that defends the whole, but I think Devon, but he tested. Well, he was productive for all the years. He was there. He's got pedigree his dad played and Green Bay needs help at that position. Now, if this was any other year and there were like receivers and titans that I thought were worth helping Aaron Rodgers out. I would prefer to do something like that. Because I think Aaron Rodgers eve a lot of health. I just don't see that here and not for values. So that's where I'm going with Devon to like him. I like going defense, although we I think the Packers have aids set wide receiver potentially tight end, and they will get to those needs later but in. In terms of positional value. We've talked about the wide receivers irt not really up here, and they did add Preston Smith, but they've got guys in contract years at the linebacker position. Blake Martinez who's been solid. Kyle girl broke out last year. Cow sacral, they started calling him don't really caught on over the nation. Cuyler background. I. Sorry. But yeah, I I like Devon I like him a lot. I think again to go back to the reasons why the other Devon he shares a lot of those characteristics in terms of speed and coverage ability, and it makes a lot of sense for me are I'm the next team a Miami. Miami's team needs are everything. Or Miami's is not delusional. I'm really excited for you. Get angry about the Miami is not delusional about. What they are. They are fully aware that they are rebuilding team. Or at least I really want them to be fully aware that they're rebuilding team. It seemed like they're fully their behavior indicates to me that they are aware of their rebuilding nature. So there's not going to be any no quarterback nonsense for Miami. So I think they should take a defensive player who they can build around centerpiece leader, I'm gonna go Christian Wilkins here. Or what I mean? Yeah. Man tests, I could see the fans in south beach, and you know, KENDALL and wherever else all the people on. I'm sure they're really excited about defensive tackle good job. I'm excited. I'm excited by every fan base like Christian Wilkins. He's fine. Ceiling again is the question athletism, but he is an NFL player. And I'm not gonna fight with you who you taking fourteen. I am going to fake another Clinton defensive linemen who I'm not that excited about. But whatever we gotta fill these a lot Clinton Farrell. Right. I mean, they wasn't NASA. San Francisco from they like destroyed Alabama. I'm not excited about you know, what was the best offensive line, and you know, college football history one of them anyway. But yeah, Cleveland Farrell, they need help it entrance. You. I mean, Vic Beasley do great last year and talk McKinley still hasn't quite come on yet. And he think in coined with what somebody here to shore past Cleal. Good size productive national champion. You know, played a system where you know, they produce NFL defensive lineman. So it isn't the wrong pick. I'm just not excited about it. But that's fine. It's another one where I think I worked so much with the Clemson guys that I'm just lumping them together and saying they're very pro ready, but let us his like. Exciting. I've already that. It's because we talked about this last week that there's a warriors thing going on where because they believe together they're kind of getting together. And but that really is true with him. What I said earlier about kind of the athleticism being the question Mark because the technique is there the hands or their footwork. Is there the run defenses there and in Atlanta? Does neat have needed that position. So I'm gonna take a guy next for Washington. Who's? Kind of opposite in some ways in my opinion. I don't. Which I think is fair. And that's another pass rusher. I'm gonna take Rashawn Gerry here who is just pure athleticism. And he's on by numbers are bonkers, but just didn't have the production at Michigan. And so he's there's a big question. Mark there the Washington needs suppose lot of teams need pass rushers which has worked out well with this draft. But the ceiling is very high there, you know, he so so strong so explosive. The question is whether that can translate into solid fell play. Another one of those guys that I just I'm always sort of skeptical undo haven't quite done it. But they're like, oh, he's gonna put it all together. And I'm like, you know, do he's gonna have to put it together in the NFL. You know wherever. The only time I can remember somebody in that position ever doing it with their say, well, you know, he's got all the tools and produced that well, and he, you know, ended up becoming, you know, something closest done tire PO like I like like, okay like it turned up. But most of those guys they never become that guy. So that's why I'm sort of skeptical, but I do agree with you that like like why not like he could be he could be that guy. He could become Hercules, you know, what I mean? Like, he's he's got all the he looks like he should be NFL. So like wanna? Before we get to the second half of the first round. I wanna take a second remind you guys about ZipRecruiter. Hiring is challenging. But there is one place in go where it's simple fast smart place, where growing businesses can connect to qualified candidates. That place is dip recruiter dot com slash Meena. If you post your job there, it will send it to over a hundred of the web's leading job boards, but doesn't stop. There has powerful matching technology that dip recruiter uses to scam. Thousands of resumes. If I people with the right experience invites him to apply to your job. Basically, you're gonna save time. Using this dip recruiter is still effective that four or five employers who post on it get a quality candidate through the site within one day and right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com slash Meena. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash M. I N A ZipRecruiter dot com slash Meena. Ziprecruiter is these smartest way. To hire. You are who's next the Carolina Panthers. Okay. So what's the position you're looking to fill on your team right now? Got this medium sized company based in Charlotte, you know, just typical banking industry, but we need somebody with a little more beef this time somebody that can you know, we're looking for somebody that give a corporation in new look and also the health one of our more important employees may can't Luton. So we're gonna reached out like so many other people from the south that moved to Charlotte. I wanna Reese down in the game Ville and get John Taylor officer tackle out of university of Florida. He's got a lot of potential. There's a lot of growth in him. He's you know, you know, kinda got you know, he's he's he's got technique to work on right? Like, he's not prison. There's a lot of growth, but like I feel like with office of lime. That's okay. That's the crafts that. Don't learn. I also this is also that way about the with office a lot I feel like he can learn that NFL while you know, he he's got the right size. He's got all the tools this needs to put that together. And. I think Cam camping you somebody that can protect him given the last few years for him. Yeah. I mean, I he has it. All right like at Atlantic measurements there and an employer he faced serious competition real pass kinda like Jonas. So he he's battle tested. Sometimes there's footwork issues ham placement tide level stuff like that. But he to me can start day one probably at seventeen we're back to New York. So we took sweat. I'm still not gonna go quarterback. Even though there's room for set. They're gonna take Daniel Jones here. But I'm Gettleman now, and I have inspected by brain into his in. I am going to stop him from doing that. I'm gonna I'm gonna so like I said earlier a lot of holes on the defense east. They can use. They could've used on Taylor frankly, a wide receiver. But I'm gonna go cornerback which is another area of need for them. Obviously. The Jenkins contract has not been great. And we'll come to an end at some point in the position up. Opposite him should be open to I'm gonna take Byron Murphy out of Washington. No, no. Wasn't this other? You follow them. I mean, they turn out a lot back prospects every year, and I'm just like which one of them has really hit. And then if oh, yes. So far, you know. You know? Bauer. Murphy, ma'am, you remember shot. You know, he is five eleven hundred ninety pounds not free. But he can play the position. I just this might be my huskies by it. Like there's three there's about three quarterbacks who could potentially all go in the first two rounds. I think I just think key already has the ability to cover in the NFL. I like it's not about his speed is fine. It's fine. But it's it's more about his technique and his boss kills for me. I just think he's not going to get Bert. He's not going to embarrass you. And I think his upside is I don't wanna say like Pro Bowl NFL corner. But it's definitely long. We'll tell your started for me. So I'm gonna take. I'm not apologizing for that. Okay. Who's minnesota? All right. So yeah, I'm with the Minnesota Vikings now, and we're eighteen take. So somebody's not open things up for presidents down. There. We need. They need a little bit of help on the offense of line the sort of sin there. And so I'm gonna take Cody Ford out of Oklahoma. This been you know, unformed mass of human who we can just shake into a potential pro bowler someday. Maybe right. Like, he he's really raw got a lot of you know, athletic traits. That info seems love. But like I again like with lime is you can do that you can mold them into something. The Vikings have a need here pretty decent value too. So. Yeah. Yes. If the Vikings don't go offense of line. The fan base will probably revolt whatever revolting. That. Just like leaving some Minnesota slightly angry comments. But yeah, I love Corey Ford. So that's why I said, yes, I don't remember. But my only question for him as are you gonna play at tackler move inside. And so it'll be depend on the team that takes him. I guess. I am. Really, he's not like a Mahler true bully, but he he definitely has the size and athleticism despite his size. I think to to block on the inside. He can pass pro. I think he could play right? Tackle in the NFL as well. They they gotta go line. So that's no question. We all right. I'm the titans also have like a shocking amount at needs. When I was looking at their roster. Well, well. This podcast. Never come down. Time we love tighten up around. We love tighten up. So I appreciate it. Well, they can tighten up at the titan. No that didn't work. Well, I'm just gonna. So. Taking receivers, you know, some of their pigs haven't really panned out and indicates Thirdly they've had some losses on defense, especially in that front seven. I feel like they could go there too. But I really liked idea of taking Noah fan here. Who's the second Iowa tight end, and it's a little bit high for him possibly, but he to me has more upside than most of the receiver prospects and titans Delaney walkers like eighty two now, we love the lady. I if this is their whole like we're gonna see what Mario can do season. They got make decision on him. I think having a guy like Fant who is not as all around as Hopkinson. I think people are concerned because Hopkinson ended up taking a lot of his reps last or taking a lot of catches actually targets rather? I think still he's upside his vertical ability. Can run all the routes his catch radius getting guests? He played basketball to make him a good a worthy first round pick. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's got like all all of them in schools that he's probably, you know, Parkinson's three fan might be more of a physical. Upside is greater. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So I mean, I mean the titans needs of moose and things up actually a little bit like forgive, you know, give open the filled up a little bit from area to sock. Ac- him like stretching the filled down the middle of the field. So yeah. Like, I mean, like you said we people fake gonna Marcus mariota. This kind of could help get some sense for like, okay. What does he do what we have like a dynamic weapon? All right who's taking. So I don't wanna be Tweety. But I'm going to take. That was terrible. I tried something that didn't work I'm gonna greedy Williams. I mean, really the see was colonic didn't really just clean out everything. But. Let's try let's get greedy Williams that you know, their coverage was a mess last year. And you know, going to last year he's on the wrong side of thirty. Artie burns is not dependable Greenway as long. He's six foot two. He's fairly fluid which is you know, you wouldn't expect that for corner that size, and you'd think that a little bit more stiff degrees like has good fluid in hips, which is a weird thing to say. But that's what we know about him. So yeah, I think he's a good fit here. And especially pretty good value to I was talking about value. But like sometimes it's not just you get where you get them and greedy way that a lot of people in the air had somewhere around that top ten thing. So to get him. I think it's a pretty good thing. There are people who have him oct- Byron to me. He's more boomer bust, right? Like Barbara safer pick at cornerback. And but you're right zaps elite area need for them already burns. They'd like benched. Remember last year? The whole secondary. Like, I kind of was eyeballing Jonathan Abram here. But I I don't mind, greedy. Either. I think that whole secondary is where I would go first in Pittsburgh, but I like the pick. So the Seahawks are next my beloved. Emotion tied up. Yeah. Do not look up calms reaction to the rush. The the penny pick last year. But the reality is definitely gonna trade down because they have like one draft Ford raffish next year, and they love to John there is nothing. John Schneider loves more in this world than trading down. But I'm gonna let them pick someone trade down is lame for a mock draft. So there's a few ways I mean, obviously offensive line is always always in need. And Andre Dillard is tempting not clear got less. I locked out doing Brown. It's not clear. What's going to happen with Germaine Effendi also guard? Tight end is something being thrown around. We don't know what deals with dizzy was there. Tom pig last year. But I'm gonna go cornerback again here and run a quarter. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. You know that? Rocky acid outta temple. He was kind of late bloomer. He trains LTd up to temple. I mean to be honest. I mean like. Temple the only only quarterback in in the nation targeted. Fifty or more times did not allow reception of twenty plus yards is my rock. Yes. In fact, five eleven one ninety two so, you know, the story of taken taller Bax, and maybe gone more fresh lettuce. And but I don't know I think shack Rufin was really up and down last year the other side, I think should be open to competition. So I'll go all right Baltimore. Twenty two more whole chase for the extra like have you seen this do shirtless? And so I'm taking came back cast wide receiver ole miss that dude's clang bang. You know what I mean? He's just like, you know, I mean, he is the dude in the weight room with this, you know, juggle water, and, you know, his creation college that everything else. So yeah, I mean the thing is that. Okay. So you've decided Lamar actually as your quarterback. And people are divided on the future of Amar's accent? But the thing about him is that you need to give up some receiving options. They don't have a very receiving core in Baltimore and do run block. You know what I mean? You know, I mean wide receiver so into the league beliefs. You got somebody out there that you got him covered. You know, he's he's blocking dude. So yeah, I think became calf is another one of those Bouma bus type guy. He is production doesn't match what his workout tell us, but good value. And. Yeah, like why why not let's parade him around Baltimore without a shirt fans. Excited about ribbons football. Again, says the rap on decay is the production wasn't there. He was injured the receiver ole miss who actually had to production AJ Brown. It is funny that I don't know. He did so much more TK's probably get ready. And I think the other question is can he run like what is route tree? Look like at the combine test off the charts on like just about everything except for moving laterally. It's like, you know, he can run go routes. He's very vertical which is good for Lamar Jackson, by the way. I think that's that's a sweet spot. He really can't throw outs. And it's good news. I'm just gonna skip really quickly through the next one. Because it's it's Houston and much like Minnesota. They unquestionably need offense of line there. Tackle situation is dismal. So I'm gonna take Andre Dillard at a Washington state. Who's just a? Pug and play backing us pro ready. He won't give them tackle play. And that is a massive upgrade for Houston. Oakland's a fun one. Okay. So just a recap with the raiders we've already taken Josh Allen. And then. This is the second raiders pick. This is again the construct of this draft. This frustrates me. Because my heart wants marquees Brown to play with his cousin Antonia bun, then you running back. You know, we don't know what's going to happen with marshawn Don garden. I'm typically not a running back guy in the first round because I was thinking to finally do day where this let alone this guy, but the best one back prospect in the draft is Jeff Jacobs and to the bay area, my friend full year before you go to Las Vegas, the most complete running back in this strategy that it seems like unlike some of the other positions, he's pretty consensus number one. He can run routes. He can block. All right. I think. Why do people fall for Alabama running backs like who's been the best Alabama running back in the NFL? Mark ingram. Maybe like, yeah. Sean zander. Oh, okay. That's that's the the pre sleep sleeping era. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We've got me with. I'm not gonna fooled by Damian Harris. But. Very much that brand of Alabama back who's going to be really not great. I think in the NFL just kind of boring, but. Did not Jacobs's. He hasn't. He didn't have a ton of explosive long gains. But and that maybe he didn't have a ton of experiencing ran a timeshare. I think it's grain that he didn't have a lot of. Tread on the tires, and there's a little bit of recency bias. I think play here. Right. Because we all saw how awesome he was at the end of the season. But the raiders the way they're building the amount of picks. They have it's not crazy for them to go to go running back there. So I got the eagles next secondary's a big issue for them free safeties really more of an e than strong safety mechanisms getting up in the years, but I'm just gonna go best safety vailable and take Jonathan Abram here. They don't have a lot of need ROY doing this team needs for the eagles realistically. They might need a cornerback more than a safety. But I just I just think. Jenkins. They're going to need a successor to him. And I think he's much better than the remaining cornerback. So I'm gonna go Jonathan from there who are the colts. So yes. So we'll talk about one of his teammates, actually, right here. Jeffrey seven state, I'm thinking thinking yet Mississippi State taking Jefferson's right here for the colts a lot wrong right here. Right. He may not be able to play next year because he had injury while working for the combine that he was not invited to because of the incident. We was caught hitting a woman on video when he was a high school senior. So there's a lot, you know, the NFL teams sort of taken game here. But if you look at the NFL dot com rankings of the draft prospects, they have jeopardy summons number two. That's you know, what people think about him and his talent. And so if he can get back in you know, it's not a career ending injury. Then the colts can use a little bit of help though the defensive line. I mean, it's not bad. But you know, one more guy one more to go with Justin Houston who they just signed. Did he go tree Margus hunt? You know, one more guy they can have like a really formidable defensive line. And so yeah, like, I think they can't afford to wait on Jeffrey. So this is great value for them before we get to the next pack because I know you had been working story on Tim's if which probably gonna come. Soon. So, you know, a lot about him the incident which is not domestic violence, by the way was not intimate partner violence. It was a stranger. You know, how how is he talking about that? Now like where is he in terms of how he's reckon with what he did in the video is truly horrifying. If you've never seen it. So it's complicated. Right. I think that she has expressed contrition for it and kept his nose clean and stay out of trouble ever since. And I guess like do you think he's the kind of person that when ever happened again? And that's sort of what we're trying to figure out. I don't know. I mean, it would be a fool there in for me to predict you know, what's going to happen sevens in the future. But but I mean, he hasn't suppress contrition for it. The thing is though is that it's always with the well, you know, they were attacking my mom and sister, and that's why intervene, and so I guess as an NFL personnel person. You have to decide is that a good enough for what we saw on camera. Like, the fact that somebody was attacking your mom and your sister. You know, that you intervene in that way. Right. Exactly one of the strongest men like in state radio. But you're you're the strongest men and making Mississippi, you know, what I mean like you're six foot five to seventy five and you you've seen on. Video punching a woman on the ground. Like, I that. What is that? Yeah. It's there just aren't a lot of this. He's really the only think I could be missing something. But in terms of prospects with these sorts of red flags or these stories in their past he really is sort of the domain of the strap. So it's something we'll hear about more and looking forward to reading your story about it. So the raiders again at twenty seven and we have taken Montas wet. We took Josh Jacobs. They have a lot of needs on defense. Otherwise, I'm gonna go cornerback here. And this might be a little bit earlier than people would want. But I'm gonna take de'andre Baker at a Georgia who's agai where his tape looks a lot better than his athletic numbers his testing, which was not great like it's the size and speed and. The forty eight average. But but he doesn't play average he plays. He's one of those guys where I think is game speed looks a lot faster than his straight line speed. Yeah. I mean, he's solid. Right. And he played for defensive guy excelled in that system. He played against a lot of these. You know, SEC receivers that you know, or coming up at this point the draft and he did fairly well against those. So it makes sense. Like, it's not like, he's a sub par athlete. He's just not, you know in a legal and. Can you be okay with that? Evidently, you are. All right. Well, who are the chargers taking twenty eight. Yeah. So I went back and forth on this about whether or not they should add to some defensive line to have at the last minute. I decided you know, what HA Brown still on the board. Daddy came back college teammate. He was good without a to. He's in some of those pictures. He was the more productive receiver. And man, you know, Philip rivers could use a little bit more help like a gift to your core. Like, hey, look, we're going to say some appreciation. I know we could take boring old tackle, let's give you just another weapon here and help you. I love h Brown. He's my number one receiver by the wide receiver boards for this draft. Aden, totally all over the place. Right. Like there are gonna love the keen Butler. There are people who hate came Butler. I came at half his number one on some boards. He's like ten on. It's just insane. I think AJ Brown is the. The most polished wide receiver the combination of polish athleticism is there they use them a lot. I think people some people aren't thinking number one because he was used so much as a slot receiver at ole miss, although Africa got hurt they moved him outside a bit. But just what's receives a really useful in today's NFL. The chargers does seem like the Richard's position, but actually lost tyrel Williams, of course. And they're counting on Mike Williams to step up into that number to roll behind Keenan. But I do think I totally think it's worth going receiver there. So the chiefs are next I am picking for them. And they need a lot of interesting additions and they lost. Justin, Houston deformed. So they did add manual AGA one might think they would go edge rusher. But they also have a lot of needs in that secondary. As anyone with a pair of is all in the playoffs and regular season last year. They signed the shot Brillon, right? St. Nelson walked their quarterbacks were so bad. They added Toronto new I know Eric berry is still there. But obviously, we know not only did he have injuries. But when he came back, he wasn't really himself, and I'm gonna just look I'm not even gonna pretend like I'm not biased in favor of the he he is the double whammy of my bias in that he's Asian and played for Washington. Love Taylor brand up. And I think he would be a great fit in Kansas City. He can personally is extremely versatile. They could actually I think use him as coroner he can cover tight ends. He's optimal position is as a box safety. He is just eight an extremely he's super hard hitting. He can stop his open-field. Tackling is great. He can cover. His speed is not elite. But I think he is the guy that you can count on for a multiyear NFL career. So that's my. Limbaugh still worked at ESPN. He would say that you would desire of having as an American in fell. But that's that's fine. He's very good. I saw him play, you know, three or four times this year 'cause I'm out here on the west coast. And yeah, he held up very well all the time best. Oh, especially at this point in the first round. I think that's a very good pick just send you in your bias of this. All right who the Packer sticking? So we were just talking about gifting your Beijing quarterback with the little, you know, something to say, hey, look, we appreciate you know, there's been a lot of, you know, nonsense in the media things a little cold between us right now. But how about a j they are Figel Whiteside? So smooth things over. Useful do better air arriving. Didn't chase is a little bit earlier than some Mock's having. But I think the Whiteside is is sorta guy that air watching appreciate he's always open. He's a guy who really post up defensive backs to get open with the accuracy of Aaron Rodgers like I think that's like a good fit for him. He seems like he's a big, dude. He's like six to two twenty five he's fits well in like that climate up there. I could see him having thriving earlier than you'd expect. If he gets up that way. So. Yeah. I love I love. Our CEO Whiteside. I he's the guy where every time. I was watching Stanford football last year. I would complain about it and say, this sucks. This is boring. And all of a sudden, well that guy is good, man. He's always open in the sense that even if he's not open. He's open right because you will go up and get the football can contest. Catch ability is incredible. You will hear about one thousand times over the next few years that his parents played basketball in Spain. He's Spanish that is going to be. I think a very commonly referenced fun fact, so I like him, and I think I saw I think it was Mike runner-up PF who calmed him to Jordy Nelson. So this this is done cine, man. Oh packers. It. All right. So I'm the ram. I got the Rams next. I'm gonna go. Center slash guard and take Garrett bradberry out of NC state who. Yeah. The only honestly like reason he might not be first round mocks is that he was a center, you know? And. It's possible. I mean, so the rant which talk about the Rams ofensive line, which took the interior of the Rams offense align this is why I'm kind of keen on. Replenishing? I guess that position is. That's where they really struggled down the stretch into came back. But John Sullivan was really up and down. He's in his mid thirties. Now, awesome Blyth really struggled at guard. So I just think Garrett Bradbury who is potentially. I think day one starter in zones game makes a lot of sense for Los Angeles. All right. You've got the final pick on the patriots GIO men. Bill. We've been the lab going over plus. You know, we've got I think we have like twelve thirteen draft picks. And this rent we loved draft picks excited about them. And we're just like we're going to do what people don't expect us to do which in subways they're gonna expect us to do when I tell you that we're taking Andy is about number thirty two. And what I'm doing? You know what I'm doing? You know, what I'm okay their own. They're all wheel. Now, we haven't talked about it out loud. But you know, hey, look Andy is about he ran a four three one. He's deceptively fast. And I think he'd be good fit. If our system in New England, so yeah, right right down the road to move get the camp. So, hey, it's even better. We only have to pay for moving stuff. This is a full troll pick. I like India's. My third best wide receiver. I think he has some limitations imitations. Smaller slut guy, very fast, obviously getting three thousand yards and the patriots scored two touchdowns. It's going to be really, but they do need regardless of how you feel about him. They do need. I would definitely go wide receiver to there. So I like, I like that notion. All right. So before we get to tailor rap as always got a few questions for you. And now it's time for Dinxin dunks. I'm getting paid for this right old town road remix overrated or rated just right. Rated just right. I can understand the enthusiasm around. It's like when I liked him C hammer. It's like oh. That seems really nice like time where we're divided as people like to say, it seems really nice and fun. So yeah, it's it's proper. It was also such a relief win Twitter is something that everyone likes. I think that's part of the reason why enjoyed it so much universally positive reception. Who was your favorite college player who did not thrive in the NFL? Oh, maybe you know, this Vince young. I'm Vince young. I don't know. I don't know maybe a half day Kate early. I feel like he played for Jeff Fisher. I mean, I think these McNair case where the hall of fame as if he thrived planning Jeff Fisher. And amazing. And he he was so good. He made me root for the university of Texas, which is something. I I would never do. It was all about fit, and it wasn't a good fit it with the way that it did. Yeah. The Jeff Fisher handicapped hall of fame. It's like. Okay question. Three. Are you pro or con on the following subject? Mascots with giant humanoid heads. Probably as I think you should go with a good animal or like the heat or magic. Yeah. Like, I kinda things like a cop. Sometimes it can go to like really uncomfortable character. So you, you know. Yeah. Just maybe you can spend where it from making humans mascots, and let's just you know, maybe making making wildcat. Do you know do something like that eagle? You know? That aren't being doing. I mean asked Dominic Foxworth the NAR walls, the or you know. Yeah. I mean, why why not yet the banana flood, you know? Let's bring that back horned frogs. But that's so much. You can do. So my, you know, we don't have to do with. Yeah. Okay. You're famous when he came in the morning rose. Would do one's gotta go where you'd be presented with four options and say. Suggest which one's gotta go. I'm gonna just give you a one's gotta go that I came up with. Twitter Facebook, Instagram U2., which one's gotta go. Gotta. Got to get rid of Facebook. Man. I mean, I'm barely on news right now. Facebook has gotten to the point where they send me notifications of other people's post. I didn't even isn't that. We're going to. We're like if I want to know what you're posting like, hey, man. I'm not coming back. Okay. Our relationship with over. But I'm thinking nice and trying to back. Okay. Just like it's accepted. It's over does that to me to it's weird that they think that's the pool like an Email saying your cousin just had a baby. I now I don't want to log on anymore, right? Right. Ability. When you say you Facebook like off sorry birthday. I'm not on Facebook anymore. And I just I didn't there's so many things don't have to respond to Facebook. So Facebook anti last question is always comes from Lenny Dolittle bit of internet research for this one. Oh god. On Twitter dot com. You mentioned seventeen times that you were attraction of being when you were ten years old my question. How come you? Don't talk about. How fast you are? Now. Wow. I mean, you know, first of all linear w way, like he doesn't even look fast enough to really flat my speech start disproportionately long for his body. That's not true. Oh, okay. He seems very stubby. Right. I'm sorry. Well, we'll get followed like I did back when Williams Asia, I'm still fat. Like, it looks good. I know Dominy the Dominic. We know kinda like punk me on Twitter wants talking about. A little bit. Like, I was afraid to raise limits something, and I'm not saying I would beat him. But I would race it. You know what? I mean, if I think I'm fast for a forty year old man who's suffered eleven two hundred pounds. Like, I you know, I could go like I can caveat most people in the world. Yeah. Do you think he's Eleni in a forty yard dash? Ooh. Wow. Sounds like shame. Oh shame. I feel like we depend on how the start goes. Like, I just I I, you know, I put my money on myself. Like, I've got I've believe in myself. So yeah, I think I can take him. There's nothing for me to come down to LAN run against let it, you know. I mean, I'm with forty five minutes. Jill Anderson will come down to LA to race might dog who pretended to ask him a question. That's petty is hey, guys like, pettiness and great sports. Check out the right time with Bomani Jones on apple podcasts. Wherever you listen to podcast this week. Bo has part two of series on the NBA supermax contracts in conversation with NBA executive director. Michelle Robert says, she a really good one also chats with comedian ROY with junior ESPN golf analysts Michael Collins on their past connection in the comedy industry. And there will be some masters talk and next we have Taylor app. So we have been talking about the draft prospects position groups, mock smocks of mock smocks of mocks of mocks, but I wanted to get inside the process a little bit during the lead up, and instead of just talking with my fellow guests bagging bloviating, I wanted to chat with one of the top prospects in the draft a guy whose name you're going to hear a lot in the coming weeks and years once he's in the NFL. He's one of the top safeties in the class and about a comment. She has the highest graded safety right now. Huskies fans like myself bias alert know him. Well, two time for steam all Pac twelve player viewers of high noon, my known from a bit. I did with my pal Pablo Tory about our obsession with Asian American athletes and finding out who is Asian because like yours truly he is a hopper, and it's more likely than not that he will be the highest draft. Did Chinese American player in NFL history. Welcome to the show. Taylor rap for having me on guy. Do you know like who all the Chinese American players who have been drafted? I mean, it's kind of hard to find actually it takes a lot of aggressive pedia searching. Found out or heard about was Ed Wong. I think he's draft in the fifth round up other than that. Maybe Patrick Chung. He's got like a quarter Chinese and him. Right. Yes. He was on the board the shrine that we made all yeah. Joan you kind of tell too. I mean, he's not like you and me we're like, we're it's very obvious. But you know, when when you around Patrick Chung person, you can you can definitely see it. And obviously Pablo and I are always trying to guess do do you ever do that? When you're watching your like, maybe is he? Yeah. All the time all the time. I try to give gets their race. And what kind of Asia they are. So yeah, it's fun. You know, you're right in the draft process. And I feel like this really begins like it really sets in. I know for prospects at the combine what was the part that you enjoyed the most. And what was the strangest part? The best part. I had was just being in a place for four days just being able to like compete in just talk to interact with like all the best college football players and the whole the whole US. Obviously, the strangest part was I say probably a couple of formal interviews that I had to do just because depending on some teams how they attack the former interviews and teams, you know, they they asked about the question real questions or some teams with like put up your bad that film, and then kinda like grill you try to act to that. That was definitely one of the one of the strangest parts of the same. Yeah. Some of the weird questions always get out. I mean, and I remember I can't remember who said it, but it was the Seahawks who challenge someone to staring contest earlier from guys they get. You guys. I was like what animal would you be in stuff? Did you get asked anything goofy? Like that. Yeah. There's a bunch of I think one t- I can't remember who. But they. The benefit another team DASS me like if you were from more would you do with the nice for gun? Definitely a gun, right? Yeah. I I will I like that. Well, I wouldn't kill anyone first place. But then they may be picked. I said I said God just because I don't know faster. There's no gun is definitely the normal person. Right. I think. Great red flag for perserve. Yeah. Definitely a knife. I really wanna feel. Although I think you did the right thing by saying can kill someone right? Have my pin a move. Did. You did you take a couple of weeks ago, or I don't remember it when it was this point I talked to the guys who actually administered the psych exam. Did you take? It sounds like almost like a video game in some ways. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There for the first night that I got there there. I didn't think I was going to have to do anything. But I I was up until I wanna AM doing psychology Tessie when I got there like six o'clock at night. So there was a bunch of psychology testing. But I think I remember the one that the other guy was talking about like the video game. Like literally is like a gaming, you're it'd be like you're playing a video game. You weren't obviously weren't the only husky at the combine their bunch of guys guys. We we'll talk about another one guy. I want to mention like you. He's being mocked in the early rounds for second. Byron Murphy, and you guys are part of this recent tradition of incredible defense. Bax coming out of Washington Sidney Jones barks Peters Baker. I mean, the list is really long anything like that's the case at university of Washington. These days first of all just sound like our our defensive bags coats coach lake how how well job developing young players. I mean, he he obviously recruits great players. But I think he's the best business that -veloping young football players and achieving the maximum potential, obviously, I just look at his track record. It's frightening the result. So I mean, I think it it all starts with recruiting guys. But I think coach like he he develops them like other. Yeah. I don't know if you know, I I did a story last year on Jalen Ramsey, and he actually who's obviously, you know, one of the best cornerback fell. And he almost went to became a word of his. How would? We'll be you weren't highly recruited at high school, right? Like you played at a pretty tiny school worn ball at top. I don't getting recruited like pretty well. But it was more. Like I had to like go out and take initiative, and like get seeing college camps or call coaches 'cause I knew like, no, no college scouts, college coaches. If you bro enough to say, oh my school up in Bellingham, Washington. So I really had to like get out there and try to try to like get seem. So your mom is Chinese Udeze Canadian. And I think I read somewhere that you actually raised partly by your grandparents from China like. Yeah. Or the lot of their day Ereli. I don't wanna say always, but they traveled quite a bit. So when they were travelling my mom's parents had they played a big role in raising my older brother, and I my brother, and I are super close I've gone up. That's kind of how we learn to speak some Chinese because they they didn't speak any English. So we had to communicate with them somehow. So our Chinese was a lot of everyone when you're younger, and we were around them a lot more. But as we got older kind of lost because more around there than we more really around like speaking Chinese as much, but yeah, they played a role in raising my older brother, and I you guys speak Mandarin. Yeah. We yeah. We do you never had to go to like Saturday school or anything like that to study. Well, so my parents actually had my older brother, and I like a Chinese boarding school in Bellingham. But we were only there for like Cup. Of years, maybe here, but that quickly ended. I used to have to go to a little bit of Saturday school to learn Korean, and my brother, and I also quickly quit because we didn't like yard. Just try to communicate and talk to our grandparents and our mom like that. So my proficiency now with Creon I'm told is that of a two year old how about how are you? I mean, it's probably pretty bad. See I I don't know about a two year old. But I'd say, maybe I don't know maybe ten year old, maybe. Okay. Oh, all right. Implant. Well, growing up playing football. How often did you come across other Asians in the game? A lot that I could remember that's that was part that was like difficult for me when I was growing up because obviously there's not a lot of Asians in any major sports like let alone just football. There's really none in the ball when I was growing up. So I mean, it was it was difficult for me not having someone to look up to relate to. Yeah. And how did people react to seeing you on the field? I mean being one of the very few is not only Asian players in middle school high school. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people were kind of weird out by it. You know, I I was always, you know, one of the better players on on my teams growing up and stuff like that. So like, I think it kinda weird people out. But yeah, I mean, it was it was difficult because I think that played a huge part in like when I was trying to get recruited and stuff like that. Just because I didn't look like the typical football. Player or like typical football player. In college coaches is I felt like I got overlooked quite a bit. When I did go to camps and stuff like that. Just because I didn't look like a football player in there is. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I can relate to that. Not just as a woman, but also being Asian. You know, it's there aren't really people who look like me in sports certain that not that many either. Growing up obviously, not a lot of Asian American players playing football. How does your mom feel about you playing the sport just given? Listen, I gotta Korean mom. So, you know. I don't think see really like was following along like picked it up. I I mean, maybe just bought that. Like, you know, it was good to be out there, you know, getting around getting activity, and, but she really didn't like it at first because of how physical, and you know, how dangerous it could be. But I mean, I think it really grew on her. And she really understood like how special player I could be you know, how far that the game. Could take me. I mean, look at me now got four years of education paid for everything like that. And I can't go in the National Football League. So I mean, I at first she she really didn't get it. But now now she's really fully understanding, you know, getting on board time about your tattoos recently just got worth that people are Chinese base type last week when I was home, and my brother, so the first one that I got was is right on my side of my stomach on my. Ribs. They're confused sits five virtues kindness cusses morality with them and loyalty, and those kinda just big five traits that I try to like with my life by and try to you know, everything I do I try to really have those five virtues and traits, and then I have all about solar for my Chinese ODI acts of euros born year of the ox, China nineteen ninety seven and then like a little Chinese proverb right under that me like changed the world make a difference in the world. And then I recently just got to new ones. Like, I was saying I got one on my chest. Just the Chinese character on my left side right over my love in Chinese and then woma calf. So my brother is going. He's role in me growing up, and you know, we always had tight brotherly bond. And you know, he he helped me out and everything I. I did I would be anywhere near where I am today without without him. So I just kinda wanted to get tattoo fate tribute to him. And you know, how much he means to me. So. Exacting? Walking. And then there's one little brother one older brother, all they're like holding hands walking away. If things brothers looking to the big brother and then right over the little brothers head. I gotta Chinese character for little brother. And then he ended up getting the Chinese character for older, brother. But it was it was his first too. So heated jump on the graphic yet. But I think he's he's gonna end of the kids coming up. I'm also your the axe definitely not the same. And that's really upsetting to hear that year. But so it sounds you know, you mentioned earlier growing up. You didn't have a lot of like Asian American football players to look up to DC will like you're getting these tattoos. You're kinda putting yourself out there a little bit in terms of identity. It does is it meaningful to you knowing that, you know, other Asian American kids potentially playing the sport could look up and see you Taylor rap on the field. Yeah. A hundred percent, I think that's probably my biggest mission right now. They're trying to do. I think I'm trying to be an inspiration to the young as Americans who didn't have like a role model look ups you like I did have when I was growing up. I wanna fill that role for them and be able to have someone they can look up to spire and have someone they can relate to just because of the the small amount of Asian Americans even in any any sports. So I wanna be able to inspire them. It's so that, you know, like put your mind through it. You know, try to sound stereotypes resume. Did you know? Kyla Mary's part Korean are good. I did I did know that. I saw my on the board you in Pablo put. It's very important to me that people know. Well, let his mom or are very small. Right. It's small. Yeah. Enough. We're still claiming there for sure right? Right. It is small it's small we'll claim anyone especially someone that talented. Well, let's talk about the draft a little bit before. I let you go. You know, are there any players? You look at right now any safeties in the league at the moment that you sort of see yourself modeling your game after. I like watching. I think a lot of my game come from a lot of of those game. I think I something to do with young things like doing James it's all out of I think those guys are super versatile and what they do. And how how the defense use them in their scheme. Also being from Seattle from Bellingham Thomas plays the game intensity in the motor. He has the way the game is Mexican play. But you know, there's there's a lot of safeties like Eric Weddell Eric berry, and I I really I really love watching. All right last question, if you had to kill someone would you choose between a knife and a hammer over knife. It ahead ver-. Oh, that's a hard. I would say nice because the hammer I don't know. I guess if you hit a one time, I don't know. I don't want to get it to say I of. Depending on the thoughts could really do as fast as possible. But yeah, he's on me other stuff from a gun. Yeah. There's no non non psychopaths answer. What about daily? Thank you so much for. I don't have to answer the questions. This is my podcast, but I would nice.

NFL football Josh Allen raiders titans TJ Hopkinson Josh Rosen Alabama John Brown Joel anderson Denver Washington Nick Bosa giants Josh Oakland basketball
The Name-of-Coach Experiment Is Over Edition

Slate's Hang Up and Listen

1:03:40 hr | 2 years ago

The Name-of-Coach Experiment Is Over Edition

"This episode of hang up and listen is brought to you by Intel. Not the you would open Photoshop and illustrator, and every application on your computer at the same time just for fun, but you could with the eighth gen Intel core processor with Intel, octane memory, you can push your computer to new limits, new computers with Intel. Octane memory are now faster and more responsive, which means you can open load and launch, like never before learn more at Intel dot com. Slash you could the following podcast contains explicit language. Hi, this is Josh Levin is sports podcast. Hang up and listen for the week of October ninth, two thousand eighteen on this week show. We'll talk about New Orleans Saints quarterback drew Brees becoming the NFL's all-time passing. Yardage leader will also discuss the UFC fight between Habib near Magomedov and Conor McGregor and the fights inside and outside the ring. After the officially sanctioned fight was over and we'll look at college football at the season's halfway point where somehow some way Alabama is good again. And Notre Dame is looking like a playoff contender. Stephan fats is, is out this week joining in his stead is our slate colleague Ben Mathis Lilley who recently expressed that he would pay for an app that removed the chargers from his TV feeds and consciousness a sentiment that got five lakes on Twitter. Congratulations. Tweet ever. And Joel Anderson of ESPN on the other line, don't laugh yet. Y'all, because I'm going to mention your tweet. The got a single solitary lake mentioning that mahogany is one of your favorite words and you wish you could find a way to use it every day. I, it's just a testament to the idea that you should never tweet basically. So the notion that the chargers should be a radical from human consciousness is five times more popular than idea. The mahogany is a good word. I mean, I, I think that's just speaks to the color of of us side probably. I know look deep into our hearts and and figure out why Joel tweet was not more popular. All right. Let's let's talk about football on Monday night in New Orleans with a sixty. Two yard touchdown, pass to rookie wide receiver. Trey Kwan Smith saints quarterback drew Brees, broke the NFL's all time record for passing yards which had been held by Peyton Manning here, courtesy of breezes microphone is what it sounded like on the field after he said that record. Does so much. You're gonna camp. Life, you'll the war for right. Let's. So drew Brees hasn't just taught us how to play quarterback at I level and that clip he's taught us about the three different kinds of love in the world. There's the love you have for your children for your coach and for your left tackle. The moment that yes, PIN focused on for the whole night was what he said to his kids, which if you could make it out was you can accomplish anything in life if you're willing to work for it. That's the message that we're supposed to take away from breezes career. He was undersized and disrespected coming out of high school and college. The chargers let them go because of what was supposed to be a career ending shoulder injury, those damn chargers again. But he fought through and he led the saints, the Super Bowl, and he's now put up more yards than manning and farve and everyone else in football history who's more of a prototypical statuesque strong armed quarterback. Joel, what do you think about that gloss on drew Brees is career and kind of what he stood for. I think drew Brees is a testament to the importance of timing in working for a good boss of by which means that. So he started producing under Joe tiller like his first year it produced. He gets recruited to produced by Joe tiller and Joe tiller is not one of those people like he doesn't even get like Bill Snyder type props, right? But Purdue is pretty much a nowhere job for a lot of people like people go there in their career dies in. If you look at the history of Purdue football, they've been to bulk games eighteen times ten of them were under Joe tiller. And this is like before like the liberation of bowl games, right? So like he played before guy like Joe tiller who is willing to spread the field and throw it all the time in overlooked, overlooked affected, like drew, Brees wasn't one of those like tall, statuesque news. Then he goes to San Diego where he's playing for the Mike Riley in north Turner. You know what I mean? Like like like his career, his first few years. Good salt. So release, slow start. He plays for Marty Schottenheimer full little bit. Another kind of one of those like old school. We had run the ball in between the tackles established a run on first down, you know, so we're not playing behind the sticks. And then he goes to New Orleans in place for Sean Payton. Another guy who was willing to like alert his offense to his talent and let him throw the ball around the field in Saul. I the best possible version of which is can be like, it's not. So that's what I actually picked up. Like I drew Brees is talent and like you know that he's sort of he's unique among some of the best guys in the history of the game. But when I think about him also think about the fact that he was really, really lucky that he played for guys that saw that in him and were willing to invest in him despite like what other people may have seen as mutations. Yeah, that's really interesting. Like ban Peyton Manning was obviously going to be a quarterback, given his pedigree and Evan his his attributes. But. I hadn't really thought about it that way. Just this idea that anybody who achieves like the highest possible level of their sport. It's funny to imagine that they just like wouldn't have even had an opportunity, but breezes the rare guy who's like an all time. Great record setter who you can seriously imagine that applying to. I mean, you know, I look at look at Doug Flutie. I mean, not obviously not not directly comparable in terms of the style replacements anywhere you go. There you go and that yet someone who really didn't really never get a chance to to quarterback in the NFL because he he was good at the wrong time. And yeah, now you have guys like Baker Mayfield was the number one overall pick in the draft who similarly short, I think that you could make the argument that that wouldn't have happened if not for drew Brees. What do you think? Yeah. No, I think that absolutely is right that like people saw in drew Brees people started to open up the idea little bit more of what a quarterback could be. So yeah, like you hear your Russell Wilson. Baker Mayfield. I was reading. You know, apologize, reading a ESPN insider, bubble Kuyper and Todd mcshay on collar Murray, who's the quarterback at university, Oklahoma is a guy that is generously listed like five, eleven? I think he's like profiled a guy that I profiled right, and he's already he's supposed to go to the Oakland as you know, he's got that signing bonus, blah, blah, blah. But like they're saying that he'll if he went to the NFL draft that he probably wouldn't last below the third round in, like, I mean, yes, he's a Heisman Trophy candidate. He's a top dude, like maybe even that is sort of underselling. But the idea that NFL teams will be willing to give a guy who's about five foot nine chances the NFL. I think some of that is a testament to drew Brees that he's sort of opened up. You know, people have sort of reconsidered like what a quarterback might look like. So obviously that doesn't apply to everybody. Right? Because some people still look at Lamar Jackson wanted to run, you know, wide receiver routes in NFL combine, but. For guy that sort of pocket guy likes to throw the ball around the field, but isn't quite six, two or six foot three. The ethic drew Brees has been like like big for them, like people to look at him. He's like the patron Saint of the short quarterback, right? Yes. So there's been a lot of pieces kind of in the run-up to this record just because we knew that this was going to happen. And so there are a lot of retrospectives and my favorite tidbit from that was from Marcus Colston, his longtime number one receiver with the saints. He said most of the intermediate routes that he was running. I would just see the ball come out of a pile of folks like breeze so short. He literally him the ball would just emerged and just thinking about the mechanics of that and how atypical it is just makes his accomplishments more remarkable. But Ben, I wanted to ask you just as somebody who is not a drew, Brees STAN and a New Orleans, and like I am like, what do you make of breezes persona like this is a guy who has never turned down and endure. -ment that message that he gave to his kids, which just like so kind of pitch perfect for the moment and they were eating it up on Monday night football, I wonder sort of how he comes off to you. You know what actually made me think what's night watching the game was was like, I kinda wish I'd been watching more fans came throughout the year. I feel like I have this feeling that that like for the last ten years of the NFL I've been watching in many ways like the same nine, two, seven raven Steelers game. Just like all this talking about these. These very grinding offenses, you know, very statuesque quarterbacks and I was watching breeze and I was watching brief throat around the field and score forty points. I was thinking, well, this, this is fun. I enjoy watching this. The saints have a great atmosphere. I kinda wish I'd seen where this guy, you know, you can compare him to to pay manning manning, obviously incredible quarterback his accuracy, his, you know, his vaunted intelligence ability to read the defense, but but watching Peyton Manning is not like a viscerally exciting experience, you know? So you're gonna say, wasn't incredible pitch, man. You're going to hear. They're like. He didn't. It. Maybe more fun to watch commercials than than on the field. I mean, watching Peyton Manning was like watching a lot of kind of slow, somewhat wobbly like eleven yard passes. Go to the exact right guy identified pre snap to filling was own. Whereas watching breezes you know, like like we're saying, watching a pretty short guy, you know, Chuck these, these, you know fast, impressive. You know, laser like downfield passes. So I kinda wish I been watching more thin-skinned and I actually want to turn that on a new Josh and ask, you know, what? Is there something about New Orleans as a sports city that keeps it from kind of creeping over into that top premier brand level, you know, like a in in the NBA right now. New Orleans has Anthony Davis, one of the best players in the league it amid the second round the playoffs last year, but people are still kind of kinda wondering if he's gonna leave, and I feel like there's, you know, there's kind of a parallel situation there. Debris is not being quite as famous as Brady or manning in the New Orleans, maybe is just. Not considered one of these tops cities. Wondering if you had any thoughts about that or what why that might be? I think New Orleans is trash city is the Naito. I totally agree with that. No, I think that there are different situations with the NFL and NBA in New Orleans. The city, you know, has never fully embraced the pelicans and the way they have the saints. There's not the tradition there. The jazz Ravi Asli there and moved away to. But you know, the pelicans have always seemed like they had kind of a tenuous place in the city. You know, with, you know, they moved to Oklahoma City briefly, and then came back and the crowds aren't that great. And it just always kind of seemed like a matter of time that Davis was gonna leave just that's all. That's also just what happens in the NBA these days. And it just his taken them way way too long to put a contending roster around them. And so that's kind of on them a little bit as well. But with breezes Joel said, you know, he's Ben with Sean Payton now for twelve years, and they've had that partnership and he's never really wanted to leave. And the city has this long standing relationship with the saints football city and football state. And so there's that kind of like mutual love and appreciation there. And as far as like why nationally they haven't had the same. Cachet. I mean, they did during the Super Bowl year when they started thirteen an hour. I think it's because they have had a trash defense for most of a decade. And that's also I think why Brees has been able to set the record because they spent years playing from behind and you know, putting up all the five thousand yard seasons that he's put up was not necessarily because he's such a great player. I mean, he is a great player, but the it the causation was because they were always losing. And last year he had, you know, one of his lesser seasons in terms of yards because Alvin Kamara and Mark Ingram both had like, you know, great seasons running the ball. And so I think that's why they've been why that's why he's been fun to watch. But that's also why the team hasn't necessarily always been successful for all the years. He's been a great American city with a trash defensive secondary. True because like is this actually a record that we care about? Like I didn't realize that this was the thing to, you know, like last week that he was on the cusp of this record. Like it's just I don't know. Maybe I'm that far removed from following the NFL that closely the United. I watched it last night and I couldn't even tell you at the number is anymore. I I I knew it for five seconds, but no, I think it's like, you know, five hundred thirty eight touchdowns I think is the record. I mean, it's just I think it's just an opportunity. Two for the NFL to like, bring out the hall of fame dude with the white gloves with for the for the football and for the NFL to like take itself seriously. But yeah, no, I think before this week I don't think anybody necessarily had that is like vaunted number. That guy really freaked out by the way I watch. I watch the game with with my wife and my in laws, and those in attendance watching, we did not follow football were very frightened by the appearance of that whole thing with his glove. They thought he was popular there to murder. Somebody. You got to be efficient. Yeah, he was. He was there to do both Joel. Do you have any thoughts on breeze as a pitch man or as a spokesperson for the NFL? Like one thing I think is really interesting is that as as one of the like five million corporate branding exercises that he undertakes that he launched this flag football league that he's like trying to make this national six on six league and he's even talked about it saving the game as far as you know, having a safer alternative to the sport that I found that interesting because he's somebody that I think the NFL celebrates as being the best of the game and the fact that even he is talking about a need to, you know, make the game safer even as he's using it as a. A marketing exercise is interesting to me. So I guess like what I, what I think about drew Brees is that I mean, he sold advocate people. You know what I mean? Like he's yeah actually makes it makes me wonder like are his finances. Okay. For some of the, you know, because it is. It just sounds like I don't know there's no artful way of saying this, but it just sounds like the why collar like record label t shirt company. You know, I got this product here in Brett Farr in Brit fog, but also behind something that's supposedly going to help save the game, some sort of a product, or there was something that was going to like help like make the game safer. So whatever. I just see a guy, it volved at something like that. I'm just like, what are you? What are you doing? Like maybe maybe your discretion. Maybe your judgement isn't as good as it should be. And you know, in that next kind of reflective in the idea that he was the front man for advocate for so long. It you know drew Brees is just like, basically, you know, he's a a centrist kind of guy. You know what I mean? Like he's never said anything controversial. He's never, you know, you know, when all of this stuff has been going on politically socially around the country, like I mean is, was it his mother that was like a Texas politician fort like maybe it's sort of a local politician. Right? And like he's never taken a position on anything like, he's never, you know, all he is as a pitch, man, which is actually, I mean, I guess that's fine, but I just, you know, sort of leaves you lacking? I don't. I don't drew. Brees story is much more interesting than he is in a lot of times that's about, but like I just kind of wonder, you know, five, ten years from now, you know, if will, sometimes you see guys like Joe Montana. I remember Joe after Joe Montana retired. They tried to bring him out on TV every night again. And I was just like, oh man. This is really said like, Joe Montana has nothing else to offer. I kinda, I kinda. I kind of wonder that about drew Brees to interesting in, you know, we're talking about his. On field. He's he's kind of the avatar of the new like exciting, innovative spread game. But as Joe's pointing out off the field, he he's kind of a throwback. You know, he is the like, you say, he's these centrist white-collar pitch, man. He's basically who you get. If if Brett farve is is like too spicy or painting, man, you know, like they Manning's to powerful for your product. You can't. You get drew Brees and and you know the right. So he's kind of playing a, you know that eighties seventies eighties quarterback role despite the fact that on the field he's he's, you know, he's kind of at the forefront of of the the way the game is actually played. This episode of hang up and listen is brought to you by Bambas. The most comfortable socks in the history of feet. 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That's why Bomba's donates one brand new pair of socks for every they sell to date, they've sold and donated more than nine million pairs. Our listeners can get twenty percent off their first order and try for themselves to Bumba dot com. That's b. OM b. a. s. dot com. And you'll get twenty percent off your first order. That's Bomba dot com. Slash hangup promo code hang up. Before we get to UFC. I wanted to let you know that in our bonus segment for slate plus members, we're going to talk to Joel about his upcoming feature for ESPN on Penny Hardaway the legend of the NBA and the college basketball game tear that conversation join slate plus for just thirty five dollars for the first year. You can sign up at slate dot com. Slash hangup plus on Saturday night in Las Vegas. Habib Noor muggy. Meta defeated Conor McGregor in the fourth round of their UFC title, fight with the Russian winning via the famed rear naked choke to retain his lightweight championship belt. But then after the fight, the Russian demogra- meta of jumped out of the cage to attack mcgregor's teammate, Dylan, Danis. Meanwhile, the nobody seemed to notice it at the time McGregor jump to the top of the fence and threw a punch at one of near Magomadov. Aids, and then two of those teammates jumped in the ring and started attacking McGregor after the match you up see president, Dana await said, it's just really disgusting and disappointing to me. But as Yahoos Dan Wetzel argued in his post fight column, these are surely crocodile tears because this fight after the fight Shirley good for business. This match was the biggest in UFC history, and the inevitable rematch is now going to be even bigger. We can get into the back story and just a minute, but the notion that is a stain on the sport is just hilarious to me Ben, it's like spilling grape juice on grape juice. I don't. I don't think that a stain is really at issue here. Like, how do you feel about how this kind of plays into the UFC aesthetic? I mean, I, I will the opportunity you can make the kind of point here that I did not know about fight before it happened. The obvious fight. The obvious point is that you didn't know about the fight. I Don. His point here is that I as a person very limited emanating knowledge, do not know about this fight before it happened now. I know who both these people. I knew a little bit who regretted was, but now I know who Beavis and you know, I, there's an outside tense. I would watch the second one or you know, chip in. If someone put me in a situation to chip in for the pay per view for the rematch, it's certainly something that's going to be on the radar. And you know, it's these guys punching each other out of the ring instead of in the ring. Obviously I, whenever these kind of things happened, you know, going back to the malice at the palace, you, you kinda wanna find the person who is actually upset by it because everyone like you're pointing out like Dana white here. And when the run our tests happen, everyone knows they're supposed to act upset by it, but mostly people find it kind of exciting, entertaining. So I, I wonder, who is this mythical person who actually genuinely. Feels that that the sport of punching each other and rear naked joke holding. Each other has been disgraced when when like four punches are thrown, you know, slightly after the the bell rings. So I mean, the real disgrace here was in the run up to the fate where McGregor was talking about their Magomadov religion. You know, he's Muslim saying that his manager was involved in the nine eleven attacks McGregor is consistently throughout his career and racist and homophobic. I'm seeing this report on TMZ that the guy Dylan Danis that they're Magomedov attacked outside the ring called him a fucking Muslim rat, like was yelling at that at him during the match and dislike during this prefight kind of hype period when McGregor was doing all the shed and talking all this ship, there were there was another fight. Right and McGregor like attacked a bus than Rittner Magomedov was on with a Dalai like smashed the window with the with the Dalai and he got brought into, you know, the police station and the UFC like used the footage of him attacking the bus as hype for the match. Right? It's it's truly insane as Ben sad, like Joe Rogan on the on the fight afterwards was talking about how this is like a stain on the sport and a dark day for the sport sport. It was like using basically the same exact shit to hype, the fight going into it. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, it's just it's weird because it's interesting. That'd be a male. You mentioned the malice at the palace because it was what a few years ago when grant did oral history of the malice at the palace and like by that point, everybody like realize, oh, this was actually hilarious. Like maybe it looked scary at the moment, but like, oh, that's like an it like it wasn't actually a stain on the game. It's like one of the more remarkable moments in the history of the sport and everybody kind of laughed it off. Nobody really got hurt and it was fun. And so, yeah, that's actually the thing that I'm thinking about. Like we live in a time of like rapidly degrading like rapidly like this rapid degradation of social norms, like from the top down, right? Like so like, why are people insisting that like this is actually a bad thing. We actually know that people don't care about like about certain social dorms anymore. You know what I mean? Like what's acceptable to say about people which they've -ceptable to do to people about how we demonize people, blah, blah, blah, like like none of that matters anymore. Like nobody cares. And so like for people to be like, hey, a fight broke out after site like, that's terrible. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, even if you're looking on social media before these fights are wayans, whatever you'll always see, like little video of fans getting into fights in the audience. Like I saw one of those this week right before the fire. Apparently like some, you know, mcgregor's Irish fan, some other, you know, Habib's Eum I guess, Muslim fans, whatever his fan, Russian fans while out there, kind of, you know, scrapping it out in the audience at one of the way ends. And I'm just like your like this. All that, like people that go to these things like go there with the understanding that you'll man like there are a lot of people who've made that like the fight people that joy, fights. People go there, get drunk, something might. Happen. So I just, I guess I'm just like, why are people pretending now still? Why are we pretend to being the this matters? Well, it gets to the point of what's real and what's fake. And obviously like UFC's cachet is that it appealed to a lot of fans of pro wrestling who wanted the same kind of shit talking and like people grappling with each other, but wanted it to be real and. The thing with the thing with McGregor is that he is like a fascinating character because he takes the like prefight talking to a level where it's like on the borderline between being real and being for show, and he takes it so far in terms of like what a horrible, what horrible stuff. He says, you know, the racist and homophobic stuff. He said before the Mayweather fight, which was basically con that fight was conjured out of nothing just based off of McGregor and may weather's bravado and what six, you know, monetary success that was. And so I've seen some people who are like, well, the problem was Habib didn't realize that this was all just for show and it was all like a game. Well. I mean, like people are like having the so many different ways. So on the one hand, you know, we're supposed to believe that McGregor. You know the that he's just like playing a character, right. Well, even if you stipulate that like the UFC is profiting off of a guy whose character is like horribly, racist and homophobic, and anti Muslim and were expecting his opponent where like we're mad at his opponent for taking it seriously. Like, that's, that's like, that's the argument, I guess. You know, I I mean, I I who who who definitely knows that leads them mcgregor's act is not they, it's the guy who got hit by the flying Blatch charts. No. A piece of feel the win over buzz. You know? I mean that to me indicates that, yeah, if they are stoking this in some way, even maybe they have gone a little a little too far in in letting him play this character. But this is a classic thing and finding sports, right? Jolts like there's always the like interest in like watch the white guy, fight the black guy in boxing, there's all. And this seems to be like stoking like pretty dangerously interested in like watch the like, wait Irish Christian guy go after the like Russian Muslim guy, right? Yeah. So what what Gregor did before Nate Diaz is that he called? I think he he referred to his campus. I cock roaches you know, like Allen suddenly you're all good fun, right? Like he, he told Floyd Mayweather today. I mean, okay. Floyd Mayweather is not like some sort of tragic figures. He's not somebody that people typically thighs with. Like McGregor knew exactly what go to to go up against the line to say, hey dance, where we boy called his team, you know, dancing monkeys. Is so like, yeah, he plays with this and then he did this with, you know, each team in mad, you just can't you you. I guess you can't play with that, but the ideas it like you must suffer racialist abuse, silently in the like the that is not the that doesn't reflect poorly of the state, but that there's somebody might respond to. It is a problem. I kind of, I guess that's sort of a commentary on like where we are right now. Actually people people are expected to suffer racial abuse in silence, and it's coming from his Irish. He, he doesn't have to take it. I mean, what can you say about Conor McGregor anywhere near as inflammatory or offensive, that things that that you guys have just have said. So he gets to dish it out that you know, he doesn't really get to have to take because he sees as the white guy won't. These combat sports ban. It's just a special category where you can just. Act abominably in a way that you can't in any other sport or any realm of other realm of society, and you're still bankable, and I think it's not just a UFC thing like you're saying, and I'm not like calling you specifically because I think I, I probably feel the same way too, and in some sense, it's like it makes it more interesting. It's like disgusting to say that, but why do you? I mean, is it just because we just put these guys in a special category because like they're already punching each other and kicking each other. And so like, you know, it's, it's just like in a corner of the Edward, basically, anything goes, do you think that's what explains it. I mean, there's also the fact that I can tell myself, I'm going to watch the rematch to see McGregor get his ass kicked, you know, I mean, I can say, you can kind of, and I think that's a big. That's a big part of it. You hate the one guy. He liked the other guy and you wanna you wanna see he, you know, revenge taken out on on someone and that's an obviously that's a, that's a big part of the of washing all these sports for probably are what you don't ten thousand years or so. Like, you know, we didn't really get into the fight that much, but it went for rounds. It was like a good fight as you have see fights go and there was a period in the beginning, it kinda even doubt a little bit and then their Magomadov who's a great grappler choked McGregor out in the fourth round. But unlike the first and second round, there were moments when it looked like there Magomedov was going to kill him like had him on the ground and was like punching him like right in the face, or, you know, maybe it just looked like that to somebody who's not a sophisticated fan because you know, it looked to me like he was going to punch through his skull and and if you like, hey, and McGregor, then I guess that's enjoyable. So did you see the actual hold at the end because somebody pointed this out that the the, the choke hold that ended the fight that McGregor tapped right? And he ends up Tokyo. Him the referee, choking the ref had to step in. And then when he was over. I mean, this is a testament. He had just won the fight that's vindication by. That's like, okay, I kicked his guys as he mothership now beat his ask in. He was still mad. The issue, but he did he spit in him? Did he spit it Conor McGregor would say that thi through his mouthpiece. I think he was throwing it in the direction at the guy who has allegedly calling him a fucking Muslim rat throughout the fight. Right. If you if you, if you look at, if you look at the end with the refinery, gets them up of him. There's a moment which she says something or he's spits in mcgregor's direction, which just like the culmination of all this rage. And I was like, oh, no, he normally fighters, tell you. I cannot fight angry. I can't buy with the motion because it will get you out of your, you know, try to your game plan or whatever, but it certainly seemed to have been the fuel for him on. So. So I just heard from UFC. They're cutting this entire segment is a promo for. This is all this all good hype for them. This episode of hang up and listen is brought to you by Intel octane memory. Not that you would launch all the applications on your computer at the same time just for fun, but you could laptops running the eighth gen Intel core processor with Intel. Obtain memory. Allow you to push your computer to new limits with Intel, opt-in memory, everyday tasks, up to two point. One times more responsive with all that power, the possibilities seem endless. What are some of those possibilities? You may ask about launching big media apps and content faster, lying you to create more and less time with the eighth gen Intel core processor, many of your everyday tasks or speeding up to like Email presentations. Even your browser can launch faster with Intel, obtain memory. So not that you would store thirty two gigs of footage on your computer than open them all at once, but you could don't believe it could Intel dot com slash you could now till. To learn more for more complete information about performance and benchmark results, visit WWW, dot Intel, dot com. Slash benchmarks. On Saturday, Alabama, football, coach, Nick Sabin said, I don't think that you really beat the other team when you give up thirty one points like we did today, at least on the defensive perspective. Well, I have bad news, fair, Nick, Sabin. That's not how football works. The crimson tide beat Arkansas sixty five to thirty one which came after they beat you l. l. fifty six to fourteen which was preceded by a forty five, twenty three win over Texas am which came after as sixty two, seven win over all mass. And they also beat Arkansas state fifty, seven, seven and Louisville fifty one to fourteen Joel, you're in charge of writing up the ESPN college football power, rankings this past week, which seems like maybe an irrelevant exercise to me. How do you think about who to put it? Number one. Well, I mean, basically, I mean, you just you start with number two every week. I until have loses. You start with number two. And I mean, the one thing about it is that it's, yeah, we really don't know. Alabama hasn't played a team that can punch back. They haven't really been in any danger. Like I mean, they look like the, you know, one of the greatest teams of the history of college football, but we don't actually know anything because they have been on the road and play team that has like four and five stars just like they do. But I mean, you can read. It's not like the engage in dogfights with these other teams, right? Like there there be like, we know that we can reasonably assume the ole miss has a pretty good team that well, Louisville actually isn't any good, but. That some of these teams are not as bad as Ella bama's making them look. But I mean, nobody his hat stretch the to tag Avello his head through the first six games. I mean, you'll Bill Connelly who's great. Overdose Dacian. You know, he's a stat nerd and he put together, you know you, you sit around last night like this. The six game stretches all these Heisman, Trophy winners it previously, unlike his stretch, like blows out of the water. Like it's it's unbelievable. It's like he's playing a completely different game. Like, I guess it would be like, what if if slam ball was basketball. Like that's what he's playing in football. And so yes. I mean, it's just so his first six games as a starter to his first six games are better than me best six stretches of all of these Heisman winning quarterbacks and like Alabama's flawed to the extent that they've had one in the same era is that their quarterbacks have just been kind of adequate. And that's kind of what you could point to as an opponent. But like now it seems like cheating that they actually have a really good quarterback. I mean, it was it was two years ago. They had the SEC offensive player of the year. That's the guy he'd be out to, you know, hurts was a Jalen hurts is somebody who even as he was the SEC player of the year with somebody who strength was not throwing the football like Alabama ban, having the ability to like throw the forward pass, just seems like it's a whole other level. Can you. Imagine. I mean, it's like I think I think other people have made this observation, but it is like you remember the old onion article about dolphins evolving opposable, thumbs. And it's like, now humans have no reason to exist. Basically, the rest of college football is now the humans in that analogy in Alabama is like the super hybrid genetic super creature. So behind that super creature are the kind of, you know, mostly okay teams that Joel has to shuffle around and his power rankings, and we'd debate who's going to get and the playoff. Notre Dame was one. The you mentioned as we're doing prep ban is like they've kind of gone through the toughest part of their schedule. They're undefeated the entire nation as it as a does roots for them to lose. But it's increasingly difficult to see them, you know, getting getting a loss on their schedule, and this is a team that's like more difficult in college football where it's like, you really don't know if they're any good or not. They haven't lost anyone yet. What? What do we kind of make of Notre Dame this year? I mean, I think seeing all for Notre Dame is that as much as I like everyone else enjoy kind of mocking the there. Schedule and referring to their previous experience making your the was the BCS, then championship game by going undefeated against kind of week schedule and then getting beat about one hundred hundred and nothing or so by Alabama. This year is actually not really Notre Dame's fall. If you look in the schedule scheduled Michigan scheduled, Stanford USC, Virginia Tech for the state. It's not really their fault that maybe all those teams are not that great. I mean, it's, you know, possibly the best team on that list might be Michigan and Michigan might still go eight and four. You know, they get their best this year. They tried to put together a good schedule in in turn up at Florida state and USC are are just very bad. What do you make of Notre Dame? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think they're sort of like this sort of Alabama life right that like they like people knew that they had a decent defensive line. They've got the capability to run the ball, but because they were hamstrung with Brandon wimbush for so long, it really put a cap on what they could do authentically. But this this new. Pass. You're right. You're right. They found somebody who can actually throw the ball with a five yards down the field, and it's it's kind of opened them up like before before in book got into the lineup, they had gone seven straight games without scoring. Thirty points in every start. That in book has had the last three they scored more than thirty points. So is it just like maybe they're legitimately good and yeah, like instead, I mean, they, you know, they've done the best that they can. We like we like, I mean, I don't know. Maybe Michigan is good. USC might be a totally different team by the end of the year that when we when when when Notre Dame gets there and also I mean college football is weird, dude. I mean, they usually lose their Syracuse, you know, like, and that's, we just don't. I mean, these are eighteen to twenty two year old kids like there's no telling what might have they could easily lose pits to, you know. So it's yet to be determined if they'll actually end up undefeated in the same thing with Alabama. By the way. I mean, we, we go through this every year, and I mean, this is even me saying this as cliche, like we go through this assumption that everybody is gonna go undefeated. It just does not happen that way that it's like very hard in Alabama still has to play the SEC championship game where the likely they gotta play LSU. They've got to play Mississippi State. They've got to play Auburn like which is even know. Auburn, looked bad this weekend, like that's not a gimme either. The other thing that I find funny about college football and that forgive me if I've said this a million times on this show before, but it's the one sport, I think just because of the structure of it where if you win or lose an individual game, it's an it's a referendum on the quality of your team full stop. Like nobody would say that a team that plays badly, an NFL game is like horrible. Like NFL teams just have bad games. The patriots started one and two. Nobody's saying that they're not, you know, gonna make the Super Bowl, but like when Michigan loses to Notre Dame, for example, and Ben can comment on this more. With more intimate knowledge when it's just, oh, Michigan, it's fake. Michigan is bad. Michigan sucks. It's not like they had a bad game and they'll potentially come back like that is the most consistently amusing thing about college football, not even, oh, this team is bad. It's the coaches bad, the director who hired him as an idiot. That's what have we all been doing for the last four years thinking that this coach would ever win a game like this? I mean, you could look up the blank. I think you could search on a message board. The name of coach experiment is over, you know forever. Everybody. I think I saw this week with Gus malzahn. You know, you know, Auburn fans reacting to to their play, and it re you're right. I mean, it's it's it's a catastrophe and it's not just that the the players, you know, the, the players don't care. They're not being coach, right? It really like it's like the entire entire fan base. These entire regions engaging in this kind of. Bidder self-reflection, all because you know, in the case of that Notre Dame Michigan game, you know, maybe a couple of plays went the wrong way for dole was saying. It's like the funny thing is that it's like the most capricious of all sports like because these are like kids playing this game because football is like so outcomes of games or like so determined by, you know, turnovers and penalties and injuries like especially injuries and Joel her like place played college football. You know that it's like. It, it's times like totally random who wins or not. And so it's like funny that we have this image of the sport. That's totally contrary to that took me who's better between LSU Florida, Kentucky, Texas, and in you know what I mean? Like we just don't know. It depends win. They're playing in the season where they're playing, who's hurt. You know what I mean? Like we often the thing about college football. That's weird, too. Is that is that like they published injury reports, so you'll go into a game thinking. One thing is going to happen and it's like, oh, by the way they're left tackle is not going to be playing today in their second-string is not a professional. It may just be a rich freshman who's never played a snap before. Right? So we just have no way of knowing, but I think one thing that we can all agree on, is it Mike stoops's bad, Texas has back. That's what we can agree on Texas. Texas breaking into the top ten after losing to Maryland and giving up forty five points to Oklahoma, Texas back. But Joel the central Florida's undefeated again, they, they obviously won the national title last year and they will. They will tell you they're, they're flying the, the banner, they are. They're back and having another good year and are probably the hardest team to power rank. And it doesn't really seem like, you know when Boise state was going undefeated for all those years, they kind of built up this equity, right? Where people counted their success from previous years towards the next season. It seemed like they got ranked high just based on past experience, but it just doesn't seem quite like even we've had two seasons now of data with us UCF team that people are still buying what they're selling, and it just doesn't seem like they have any chance in the college football beauty contest of breaking into the top four and making the playoff. Is that seem right? Oh, that's that's absolutely right. I don't think there's any way that you UCF. Even if they go undefeated again, gets a shot at the play off and they'd be offering last year, so. So why do you think that is? Why do you think we don't respect? It's easy to discount is easy to discount with Auber was even though up until the SEC championship game, Auburn had a shot to play in the playoff itself. Right. But like teams and back to back weeks, they'd be Georgia. But then I think they ended the season with three losses. So well, maybe Auburn actually wasn't that good at the first place. And so people sort of looked past that I don't think people don't take Auburn seriously the way that if they'd be Alabama, Georgia, that would have counted right. But like we're always moving the goalposts for UCS. They're basically playing a completely different division of football. You know, it's weird. Their games aren't on TV in the way. I felt like a big. Yeah, what boys was going through its run. I felt like they always had like a premier primetime game something that everybody could sorta rally around whether it was playing Georgia, Oklahoma state, or you know, whatever. Like we would get a chance to see them UCF like I'm watching their game. It would affect like their game against SMU. This weekend wasn't even really like shot in high debts. You know what I mean? I could look like watching a game from nineteen Ninety-seven and it's like, I can't. You know, is that McKenzie Milton up there? I don't know. So yeah, they just they don't even have. They've only got one year this and they don't even have the program also have the same code. So people probably say, well, how much does Scott frost having to do with their success. So you know, I mean, if you're a UCF like I guess, like, you know, you can, you know, swayed yourself with the idea that you won the national championship last year. Maybe we'll get to do it again without ever actually having to play Alabama, which maybe sort of a win in the in the long run anyway. All right. Let us go from there directly into after balls and the coach of the university of central Florida after Scott frost left is Josh hypol-, former Oklahoma quarterback who's last name ban is pronounced hypol- hypol- AG UP l. you have Josh hypothe-. It's my my dad hypoth- out of the day that he finished a of drew Brees in Heisman voting in two preachers last year in college, which I think in retrospect, we can say was was maybe an error. I think maybe we should have taken it over and in Chris Winky. Also we should point out the Josh Hypo. Went to the Miami Dolphins in the NFL draft the year that breeze came out and dolphins head coach, Dave wants that was reportedly happy to get Hypo instead of drew Brees. We thought that they didn't need breeze that Hypo. Ben, what is your Josh hypol-? My my hypothesis is is agreeing to rant about college. Football commercials revolves around the experiences having had to watch FOX's Michigan, northwestern broadcast weekends ago. So this game was listed in the in the fourth thirty time slot. But when you turned on the television, you learned kick off with not actually scheduled to take place until four forty eight PM after which by my count, there was something like ten commercials in the first twelve minutes of airtime during which two minutes or so lapsed off the game clock. You know, kickoff, three plays put more commercials. So he turned on the TV at four thirty. The first half hour of your viewing experience was two minutes of football and twenty eight minutes of studio filler and truck commercials. Now, Michigan fan named Kevin McCarthy who had the game DDR went back and counted for me. Last night after I put out the call on Twitter and Kevin found that between kickoff and the moment the clock ran out and first quarter of this game, FOX took five commercial breaks. So that's five commercial banks in the in the first quarter. Something like twenty eight minutes of commercials in the first half hour. The game itself, once it started to three hours and twenty one minutes Michigan. My team that I watch every week hasn't played a game this year. That's even come close to fitting in the traditional three hour broadcast mino- shortest game was this weekend against Maryland, which was played with what seemed to be slightly fewer commercial breaks after a rain delay, which still two three hours eighteen minutes to finish. So the bad news about commercials in college football and this is endemic across all games, not just Michigan isn't that broadcasters are not really suffering as a result of all the tedium as sports business daily's Austin, carp pointed out to sports Illustrated's, Richard dyke in around up of last year's college ratings after the season, total TV viewership of the sport is probably at all time record levels, given the big increase in the number of games being broadcast FOX, and f s one have have come into the market. And so there are more games on the never before probably more total total minutes viewed than ever before. In person attendance, however, fell three percent last year marking what CBS is. Dodd has noted is the fourth straight season in which it dropped overall attendances fall in ten percent in nine years in person. Stadium attendance, that's probably a long term problem for the sport, given the way that the unique game day experiences a critical part of many fans, college fans enthusiasm for their teams. The good news is the most important person in the sport has noticed after a win over Louisiana Lafayette. Earlier this year, Alabama coach, Nick Sabin said he was quote a little disappointed which which in saving uses is indicates feary total fury by healthy students were in attendance at the game saving seen to blame this on their insufficient loyalty to the team, but being asked to sit through extended breaks in play after every series. So network could air nineteen consecutive Seattle. Ads probably doesn't help motivate them to show up either. The other factor here is that well, overall, TV viewership seems to be as high as ever. It's now split between more networks. Thanks to FOX's entry into the market and ratings are non-fox networks actually declined to bit last year. So well, TV executives, rare. Really need to listen to fans. They might need to listen to angry Nick Sabin and they could possibly gain some competitive advantage over other networks by not being the channel that makes you hate yourself for spending two hundred ten consecutive minutes, watching a single sporting event, every Saturday. In any case, here's hoping nixed as as upset going forward about spotty attendance as he does about things like is third string safeties giving up an unacceptable amount of yardage in garbage time of of thirty point win over Arkansas. I love the the part of the Sabin rant by the way where he was like acting like the the students had earned. It's like. Got to, you know, you've, you've got to go out there and work for these championships students. You can't. You can't just expect that it's going to be getting that and during which they were ahead of Louisiana Lafayette by by twenty eight points after like five minutes, you know, like, oh, I can't believe no one wanted to consume that entertainment product slower, all Alabama, too. Good to good for the students. Joel, you have a hypol- for us a do, and I hate to bring down things just a tad, but I'm also going to be a company man here and recommend the sale documentary that's running on ESPN. Plus, it's sort of like the counterpoint story to what we saw with drew Brees yesterday that you know if you follow football in the nineties and early two thousand, it would have been really hard to not know who junior say was, you know he was had this high energy big Samoan due to just always seem to have a knack for being wherever the ball was. And you know, you can make a case that he's one of the five or six best middle linebackers to ever play the game. So if you're watching this documentary like it, there is no happy ending, right? Like we sort of know that his death, his suicide was a flash point in in in the discussion on c. t. in how in how the NFL started talking about traumatic brain injuries suffered by former players. The one thing though that I thought about this thing by watching this documentary, which is really sad, really more rose. Like I mean, it's it's like it's it's jarring to see this happy smiling, like dynamic guy like starting off in the eighties nineties. And then like by the time you get to the two thousand you can. You can almost literally see the changes on junior sales face an in his body like the way that he moves how often he's getting hurt out there. But one thing I've thought about it was like, oh, people really did not know junior CEO very well in in, even though I am recommending this documentary would, I would say is that even. Even the documentary doesn't necessarily get so much. It who junior say out was like, you just get the sense that people are saying, well, we had to read his diaries to note what he was feeling like it's family wasn't close to him. He didn't really seem to have really good friends. I, there's one guy who's a like local broadcaster in San Diego, and he's interviewed repeatedly throughout the documentary, and I'm like, wait a minute. This guy wasn't his friend like he's just somebody that followed his career really closely for a number of years. And some of that may be that, like, you know, maybe that's the toll that the game took on because one of the one of the more jarring scenes in there as from nineteen Ninety-four, right? Like Julius stay how retired like, you know, a decade and a half later, but there's this home video in nineteen Ninety-four from his then wife a picture of him, like a video of him in the bedroom with the would you know the blinds drawn. He's laying on the bed. It's very dark in there. He's like, indicating how bad his head is hurting and I'm just like, oh, wow, like it. He continued to play football for many more years after that. So did he rate? I mean, it's during football season. I don't wanna ruin your fun. Like football is a fun sport. I played it. I cover it. Now there's a lot that airs offer to the game, but if you watch this thing, it's hard not to think about what's happening to these guys out there and hard to think of like not just junior sale with all these men and former teammates who in not to be unkind. They seem greatly diminished. And I'm thinking, particularly here Gary Plummer in Fred macmurray. And if you watch, if you watch this documentary and you see Gary Plummer in front McCreary, come back to me, reach out to me and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. You just kinda feel like there's a sad ending at the end of this. And so, yeah, most innings, no come like drew Brees origin. You say house there somewhere in the middle in if you happen to believe the latest news on CTE in Toronto, brain injuries in the NFO those. Index can still end up being pretty bad. So yes, you asked us who are hype abso- who's yours? So I'm going to bring us down as well by talking about Brad Kavanagh. He before he said, repeatedly that he liked beer. He was telling anyone who would listen that he likes sports. He likes going to games with his dad. He likes buying a mysterious amount of Washington National season tickets. He likes coaching girls, basketball, and that's how you know he's going to be a great supreme court Justice because no one who likes sports has ever been bad. But I want to talk about another supreme court. Justice who has a connection to sports and that is the longtime judge on the Minnesota supreme court. Alan page Alan pages, an NFL hall of Famer. He played on the Vikings and the seventy s. He was part of the famed purple people, eaters defensive line. He joined the bears at the end of his fifteen year career. He was a six time all pro. He was the AP NFL defensive player of the year one year. Great player has all of the accolades and also while he was still playing for the Vikings, he was going to university of Minnesota law school. At night. He got his JD. He worked at a law firm and the off season, which is like Hugh hidden played that long ago. This was like in the seventies, but that's like a very kind of old timey idea. Like even something that happened that recently, that player would have an off season job, much less work at a law firm. Then after he left the league, he became an assistant attorney general in Minnesota than a nine hundred ninety two and associate Justice on the Minnesota supreme court. They have six year terms. He. Got was was on it again and again, and again, and then he stayed until he turned seventy two thousand fifteen, or they have mandatory retirement and Minnesota. Alan page is a guy who I think people might have heard of, but in Minnesota, in particular, he is totally revered and just seems like a person that everybody in that state loves and respects, and you really got a sense of that. This local news clip that I came across on Twitter, the other day that honestly, like made me tear up. It was so emotional, like his wife is longtime wife, who somebody who people in Minnesota also know Diane who had an education foundation with died within the last week or so, and and page and his wife would always go to the the marathon. I think it's in Minneapolis and would cheer on runners and for whatever for some reason as does he. He plays the tuba during the marathon. So like NFL hall of Famer Minnesota supreme court. Justice also plays the tuba. And so there's this footage and this news report of Alan page a week after his wife dies wanting to like go out and support runners at the marathon, playing the tuba, and you have all these runners stopping in the middle of the Ron going up to him and offering condolences. And I have a clip of that that I'd like to play. Thank you for more for children in the city. Mike condolences to him. Hickey applying. In writing. So I'm not sure Ellen page is actually that created player. That's that's. That's my. That's my take away their, no, but like to be like at the risk of being incredibly sincere like after this whole supreme court nomination process and the person that we just put on the supreme court to get a sense of like, this is actually somebody who is. Unquestionably an unbelievably good person like just based on reading a little bit hearing the way people talk about him and his career and watching that report. And what he did was just so stark to me and like, I don't know if you guys have had these moments and the last couple weeks as the news has been going on where something particular hit you. But that was the thing that really hit me and seeing the contrast there. Yeah, that's. Maybe airbag Raphy about him out there anywhere now that you mention? I don't know. Like I feel like more should be known about him or about him for sure. Like I, I will confess that he somebody that had always kind of like Ambien lay been around like there's that football player who's on the supreme court. That's kind of weird, but I hadn't. I kind of feel bad. Like I hadn't taken the time to really learn about Hammadi somebody that like everybody should know about. What one quick thing to to go off your part. If anybody out there has any footage of the nineteen eighty two Georgetown prep a high school football team. I would love for you to send it to me here. If like if you play against that team police, send it to me, I just for research purposes. Okay. You know where to find y'all on Twitter. All right. That is our show for today. Our producer this week was Danielle Hewitt tools, pashas and subscribe or just reach out good slate dot com. Slash hang up. You can Email us at hangup dot com. Joel Anderson. Thank you for guesting this week. Thanks for having me on. It's always ten, mass, lily. Thank you. I'm Josh Levin, remembers move eighty and thanks for listening.

football Brees STAN NFL Conor McGregor Joel Anderson Alabama UFC Peyton Manning Ben New Orleans Notre Dame Intel Michigan ESPN saints Habib Noor Texas Oklahoma SEC
How Ferguson Prepared the Protesters

Slate's The Gist

30:31 min | 4 months ago

How Ferguson Prepared the Protesters

"Following program may contain potty talk no guarantee but it just May. It's Thursday June fourth, twenty twenty from slates, the gist, I Mike Pesca. I. Get an email I'm on a list for the Gotha missed website their stories day Gotha. Mystic New, York City news is taking over by WNYC a few years ago. Pretty good here now presented without comment. Seven stories that are headlines in today's. Gotha missed. Corona virus statistics tracking the epidemic in New York what New Yorkers need to know about the city's historic curfew NYPD. Officer is shoot knife-wielding suspects in two separate incidents in Brooklyn and Manhattan. More than four, hundred current and former members of the blasios administration say the mayor is failing at his job and finally. Here's the plan to bring outdoor dining back to NYC. 'cause when the moon hits zero I I could have done when La. Version of this which would have also had protests. Corona virus may oral dissent police aggression, but then the last one would have been richmond woman discovered her nephew cannibalizing her grandmother. Police! Say Guess that would be. His Great. Have Dairy. But actually where I WANNA go is the middle of the country Omaha Nebraska. A young man named James Skirl was shot and killed by a bar owner there as protests were going on, but not as part of the protests per se scurr lock was caught on tape, entering some office buildings and ripping equipment out according to prosecutors, so after that he encounters a bar owner named Jake Gardner who was protecting his bar because it's windows had been smashed Gardner had a gun on him. The Douglas, county attorney. Don Kline did this long presentation where he used all the different pieces of video from CTV two different cell phones to document why he was not charging Gardner in the killing of scurr lock. Here's some of the press conference where he played some of the video, and then comment at the bar did display that he had a firearm on his person at the time that he's talking to these individuals and finding them. In this video we hit. We don't hear there's there's also things on on social media about racial of. Statements are slurs being made. There's an any any audio that we have. That shows any racial slurs. Maybe not to those KEROUAC was black, and Garner is white and race played a role. We know this because of an interview that Alana Minez gave to Omaha, channel seven Menendez was part of spurlock group and she says that as soon as she saw or heard that Gardner had a gun she acted, and by the way it was clear in the video that people knew he had gone. Hey. He's got a gun on. Menendez literally literally jumped into action jumped onto gardeners back as she described in the TV. Report soon as I hear like there's a gun I. run over in the video. You can see Melendez Grab Gardner from behind and tackle him. She says she was trying to keep Gardner in the great t-shirt from firing that weapon, and as soon as I pulled into the ground, like people gathered around us, and he got his hand. Like I duNno positioned in a way, and then just shot described by the DA as warning shots, but Gardner soon got up after being tackled by this nineteen year old woman. Then you was tackled again by the somewhat larger SCURR, lock and Skirl Ach was shot to death by him. As, the interview was going on the Chiron. The label under Menendez on TV, said tackled gunman, which is normally an heroic deed only this time it's what set off a chain of events that ended in killing. Or did it may be bringing a gun and showing a gun was the precipitating action, or maybe before that the words and shoves exchange between members of Skirl Group members of gardeners group were what set things off either way, even the DA who chose not to charge called it's senseless. He also called it justified, but the update is this that do pressure from skirl ox, family others in the community. The DA says he will at least bring the case to a grand jury. Now the odds of a coming out of a grand jury with the DA, who isn't really behind prosecution, not high, but that at least is, let's say some progress on trying to figure out this perplexing and troubling story. On the show today actually shall not spiel. Maybe it's time for me not to do all the talking that does sound pretty grand people are saying that right, but in reality I just loved my long conversation that I had with my colleague Joel Anderson over Zoom. We compared his notes from covering Ferguson to what's going on today we talked about if there is a right way or a wrong way to protest on these issues of policing an excessive force. Now see in the credits Yuri's Joel Anderson and myself. June is pride month in while this year, celebrations may be a little different than usual. They're always ways. We can come together and support the LGBTQ plus community. One way is with bombies new pride collection. These socks bring more love Compassionate Comfort into the world because these socks give back to those experiencing homelessness in the LGBTQ plus community for every pair of pride socks you buy, bonds will donate a pair to someone in need. Someone in the LGBTQ plus communities through what's called the ally coalition, an organization that uses music to illuminate the systemic inequalities facing this community like. Did. You know that the LGBTQ plus community more risk of experiencing homelessness. The bond, this pride collection comes in six colorful styles. With extra long staple cotton, the softest most breathable cotton in the world. and. They're built with a cushioned foot bed that creates a layer of comfort between you and your shoes without adding any bulk pride is usually a time where we can all come together, but because many pride events were canceled. This year is more important than ever to finding new ways to show support. Give back to the community. Go to bomb dot com slash gist today to shop the pride collection and get twenty percent off your first order. That's bombast Um as dot com slash gist. Wanted to talk to especially when it's to talk to you Joel Anderson, who is my colleague from slate is the host or was the host of season, three of slow burn, and he worked for ESPN, and he works for buzzfeed news a while with buzzfeed. Joel covered the Ferguson protests after the killing of Michael. Brown and I wanted to a little compare and contrast and get his perspective is someone who is on the ground then, and is looking at the broad scope of what's going on in America now. Hello Joel thanks for joining. Like. Could you give me the timeline of when you were in Ferguson from the how soon after the killing of Michael Brown and when did the protests really start to become very severe, so if I remember this correctly Michael Brown was killed on August ninth of two, thousand fourteen, and so there were a lot of reports. You know come benign there. It made it seem different because I. mean obviously, would they call officer involved shootings and not uncommon experiences throughout this country like it happens. Happens all the time, but this one just seemed to generate a lot more buzz, and I just remember I was observing it on twitter, and you just saw people activists that were you know very upset, and there's like this morning this story, then what we're hearing here and you know I was tweeting about it like I. I was sitting at home I if I. Remember this correctly I was a supporter for the for Buzzfeed I. It was not really my realm. To cover anything outside of that, and so I do at it fair mark shoes. He was the new investigative editor, and he put me under him because they had nowhere else to put me because eights elapsed are sports. Feed, and so he just saw much tweets, and he said think make a couple of days later. He's like Hey You really seem interested in this. Do you WanNa? Go there and cover this something about it. and. How do you say no to that so I? I think I got. On, Baby August Thirteenth Fourteenth and Just kind of dove right in fluids, Saint Louis drove a Ferguson which is about twenty minutes north of Saint Louis in no just went to. The main thoroughfare was west, Florescent Avenue. which is. Right down the street from canfield drive work. No Michael Brown was killed by Darren Wilson sort of dove right in, and it was. You know I've never covered anything like this, didn't? Wasn't a blueprint. Nobody could explain to me. How do you know obviously a coverage covered us all sorts of things, but it could really prepared me, so what awaited me? Everybody Else Stanford. Right so there. To the extent that there are seasons reporters who've probably been in areas of unrest, possibly throughout the world. Maybe there were some members of the press corps who could give tips and. Tell you what to do with Walk to wash your eyes out, if your gassed or even to you know, put you in good with certain people who were protesting, but I think we have to acknowledge that fine. You add uncovered a protest I mean. For America, for the for the cops and the National Guard, who were called out this was uncharted territory as well, there was a whole, even if you had covered a protest or a riot or looting or unrest somewhere in the world before this here in America, this had not been seen for years and years and years, and so I'm a little less clear on like. Would you know the occupy? Protests were like because I'm sure that you know. There was some element of this conflict between protesters and activism police right, but it was. It was all in. You know clearly defined areas at Zuccotti Park, or the different different camp-mates in Boston, yeah, right right right so yeah, so it did seem. I had a professor in college who had covered Z. A. L. A. Riots in the early nineties right so and he talked to us about what that experience was like in. It was very soon within my time in Ferguson that I was like. Oh, I guess what that was like. You know I had nothing else to compare it to? In the maybe the first couple of nights I was in Ferguson. You're out there really late at night there all day until you know eleven eleven thirty at night. Costed was hot new right in the middle of the summer, intentions were were really high, but nothing really happened yet, and so I think maybe one of the. August. Fourteenth Fifteenth was maybe the first time that. Police in law enforcement. Agencies were using black tear gas at point using pepper spray. Now is the first time owner. Wow, this is. This is totally unlike anything. I've ever experienced before, so we actually had to have our editors. Send us a helmet and a gas mass, and that was. That was at the point where you're like okay, this is really scary. You. I'd I'd not thought. You know before I got. My life would ever be endanger that? Things could ever get so bad that people would be checking on the envy like. Are you okay? Are you okay, but you know within a few days? Things really broke down. And you could just see it. You know we have no idea where this is going to go in. Somebody doesn't die in the middle of this. It'll be a miracle. So while you were in Ferguson, did it strike you that the protesters had tactics, and if so were they just tactics, they invented during those days or was there. A more thought out plan of Attack Attack In terms of tactics and strategy I think all three to be honest. So I got down there, you know it was not quite as organized right eat. Other people were still sort of. Figuring that way through what they wanted to do what they want to say, who should be involved and I think pretty much within a week. You don't experience. Activists Experience. Organizers got down there and help to help you know coordinate action in fact, if I recall correctly. I sat through one of those trainings like one of those. Organizers trainings for what to do when you're confronted with police and you know how to. Keep up with people if they did get arrested or assault or something like that or you know if somebody within your organization ranks. We know you suspected. They were actually the ops or something like that, so there were. There was a lot of wisdom, a lot of experience within those ranks, but also had a new generation of people that just sort of popped up there, so you know you had like mckesson. Neta Britney Pack Cunningham, they were younger than you know unknown people, but they had some experience in leadership in you know. The you know. The activism led them into. An inexperienced lead them into being organized some sort, so they were. All kind of came together organically once they hit the streets once they have some time to understand what even the police were going to do. 'cause I, don't you know? I don't think the police had like A. They were following some sort of a blueprint they didn't you know it kind of came together and time like when they said okay. This is what the protesters are going to do. This is how we're going to respond so everybody is like a football game in a in a way. Okay, we shut down the run now they're opening up with it during the little play action or whatever it was, it was a lot like that. It just kind of evolved over those weeks. Well, it's. It's expand the sports metaphor. Do you think the protests now are like the evolution of the game that what protesters learned in Ferguson or maybe I don't know perfected, but a refined were seeing those tactics and strategy show up across the country on a grand scale with the protests that are occurring right now. Absolutely I mean I. Didn't even think about something like bail funds that you see circulating online like that wasn't something that was all that common in two thousand fourteen. In Ferguson at you know people who've learned those lessons, so they said Hey, look you know. This is probably the way the police are going to respond so will show up here in. We'll have these sort of organizers year and Don't do these sorts of actions. You can see that they've learned a lot from that time because I mean you know people can say that these are quote riots, and that has been quote looting, but it relatively speaking for the scale of protests are how many you know. There have been and where they are and. You know hundreds of thousands of people that have been involved in. They've largely. We've avoided. Know Real big real big problems haven't been. There have been a handful of death, but which is you know, unfortunately, which sort of expect when? People come out into the streets and fighting in those weapons out there, right? I I i. think that the organization that activism of the last few years sort of informed how people have responded to this and on the whole You know I think they've been really effective. In the Ferguson protests was there as much because I. don't see to remember as much on active. Misinformation Not just rumors on the ground using twitter to answer this notion of which may be true to some extent, but wildly exaggerated, purposeful brick, placing an antique, an outside agitators was that as prevalent then. So back then in two thousand fourteen. Ferguson officials local officials in St Louis Missouri there was a lot of the outside agitators. And whether or not you know I, mean sure some people came from out of town because they were so moved in, they wanted to protest but I think. They would try to implies that there were people that joined these movements solely for the purpose of fucking Shit. Up can occur. Curse is love yeah place. Okay Yeah Right I'm here I'm upset that you haven't. That's all I'm a I'm a cursor I'm trying to be restrained but So so there was this idea that there were people came from out of town. flex it up, which was not necessarily true, there will be the came from a town because they were so moved by what happened to Michael Brown that they wanted to be a part of it and sure there was people again like I, said. We're trying to take advantage of. This massive people in that there was opportunities to actually fuck shit up, but this time I think that. Public officials have really tried to undermine legitimacy of the. Anger and the protesters by making that much more prominent argument here that they're saying. Oh you know, none of these people are from here right here, Minneapolis. You know these people that have come from all over the place, and then you know we find out looking at the arrest logs that most of the people were from within Minneapolis. Great Area Right so. I think that there's a a a a a little bit more experienced misdirection on the part of public officials because they don't want. They don't openly went to undermine the protesters. would happen. George Floyd was just so ugly so gruesome. That cannot deny that it was bad, and so they they want to acknowledge that people are angry, but they also want. To say hey, look the reason. This is going on because people are coming Outta town in, they just want us. They want to be mad at each other and I think that is a little bit more attack this time than it was back in two thousand fourteen. Why do you think the protests this time our national in scope, or maybe the better question is. Why do you think the Ferguson protests? There was then Freddie Gray afterwards, but that was in a specific town where specific misdeed and let's just call it that occurred. Why do you think those protests? End didn't expand outside the parameters of those towns. I think there's a few things one of them is that we didn't have video. Of Somebody actually dying on camera like we do with George Floyd that it. It's like it's such a sadistic. Viewing experience now I haven't I should say you know you know. In all fairness and honesty I watch that video because I just can't I just I've. I've watched so many of those over the years i. it just wouldn't be good for me to watch it. Not Trust reporting and people that have seen it. Who say that is as bad as I think it is right so? You know, we didn't have that with you. Know Michael Brown. We didn't have that with Freddie gray video of Freddie Gray right books. You know the moments before he you know was fatally injured, but we don't have him actually dying on cameras so I think that's one thing that people are looking at that are oh my God, but this is. This is actually very real. The things that people have been saying it's not you really can't argue with. Everything that people have been saying about police. Is You know about the concerns about aggressive policing racist policing whatever you can look at it right there and say oh. Wow, while can't really argue that even rush limbaugh. Says it's beyond the Pale so I mean if you have A. Better even Donald Trump says it right. Yes, even Donald Trump exactly. Yes, even Donald Trump says is unacceptable. Right so would people on even arguing over that, so that's one thing. But, I also think that you know black lives matter a lot of the activists for two thousand, Fourteen fifteen. They created the they created. The framework for this protest movement, and while you know we sort of lost track of it in the middle of like ongoing national crisis. You know we had a lot of things going on in the last three or four years, people sorta turned away. From issues of racist policing whatever black lives, matter in a lot of other activists have still been working. Still Been? Compiling data still pressing local police departments to be more transparent into reform themselves and so I. Think you're saying is a lot of that work. Bearing fruit time around, and I mean it's really inspiring I mean you see a very big multicultural movement up there in the streets? You know but I mean this is a really easy. When mant, this is a really easy incident to protest into. BE UPSET ABOUT S I think you know those those two things in particular. Come to mind when I'm like okay, that's why this is different you. Nobody saw Michael Brown. You just saw his body. This. You know this is beyond that. I heard to rape mckesson, who was gained prominence in the Ferguson protests the other day, and he was making the point that in Ferguson there was so little we knew in terms of information in terms of statistics in terms of knowledge of how policing works, and who is affected by it, and now we have that knowledge, so we needed to go through Ferguson in that period to get to now you agree with that. That Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean people would just not even compiling you know most police departments 'cause they had no. They have no reason to keep that data about you know you know officer involved shootings right? They just did not know. There was no standard practice, and not there is now, but there are people that are keeping tabs on it at least right, so we're getting a sense of the scale of the problem. Will. Maybe we didn't have it before so yeah. I definitely agree with derive ended it just it seems like in retrospect it's not. It wasn't uncharted waters because we had you know nineteen sixty eight. We offer mcduffie riots in Miami in nineteen eighty. We had Rodney. King. We all these other incidents, but like that. Really you know that moment you know. It seemed unprecedented and we didn't have a lot of background are a lot of memory needed have been so many years since something like that. It happened that. People just didn't. Sort of came to an unaware. You know sort of my I. I've been you know. I'M A. Forty two year old black man I've been stopped by the cops a lot in my life and. It took me a long time, so I was much older than to think of it as like a structural problem and not like man. Why are the cops keep stopping me problem. Do. You think that there's any missteps that protesters can make. That will discredit the protest or I sometimes wonder if even if they do things you know perfectly, or within the realm of perfectly people who don't want progress will find something to point to in saying. This is why the progress is denied. Yeah, I think that's it right there. I think it's the latter that you. Any former protests is going to piss people. People off and so you know if you're going to be out there on the streets, you kind of have to get past that you know or you know if you're if you're somebody that is inclined to believe that policing is a problem that needs to be answers, and that people need to be serious about reform. You get out there. Need is going to have to overlook the fact that people are eventually going. People some people are going to start out pissed and. The longer you're out there. The gradually more people are going to get pissed. You just have to had to get past that, but it could could discredit themselves I. Mean Yeah, I mean you know there's this indiscriminate violence against people out there right hypothetically, but it doesn't seem like the masses of protesters. That's what they're about. If they were, we would've seen that right. Yeah, right, exactly we don't. We don't see that you know that hasn't been happening so and I think. A lot of people make this point on twitter all the time and I'm GONNA be. Very, basic bid should bring up right now that when when Martin Luther King died in nineteen, sixty, eight, I mean most people most Americans. You know by polling. Disagreed with his tactics like he was you know a not A. Very popular person in the same tactics that he was using today that people say oh, I was protesters use those tactics. Those were the same tactics that people hate it back then disagreed with, and they said he was visited, so it just goes to show that you really can't. You can't worry about you know people are going to be upset. If if something is something moves you to get onto the streets. You just can't worry about. People are gonNA. Be Mad about it because they're gonNA. Be Mad about it regardless right? Just to complicate, though what people thought of John Brown was similar to and I. Think Probably People still think of it today. You know murder murdering babies in their beds, so it's not as if there isn't. It's not as if there is such a thing as too far, and it's easy to reach for the mlk example but. I. Don't I don't see that's where we are in America and I think recognizing that about recently about mlk is true, but there is suppose out there something that would be seen as tactics. That were too far. There really are too far well yeah. I mean. Of course it would be tactics that people could see if I but I guess you know, and maybe maybe I'm not the person to ask this but I. I haven't seen it yet, you know. Know what I mean like I mean I. Think you just have to you know even when people burned down shit, it's you know. I, I hate to say it, but if we had protests where people were just very calm in marching order, and had the police escort them around the city, and you know there was no conflict at all, I don't think people would take very seriously at all, I mean. We have protests like that all the time there. Whether, it's about you know violence in communities whether it's about you know any. Particular injustice in any municipality. You have protests going around this country every year. Most of them are not covered, but conflict in anger showing people. Hey, man. We are sick of this and we need to get your attention sometimes. You know that that's the only thing that will get people's attention in you know. Maybe that's not the best way to do it, but also it appears to be the only way to get people's attention a lot of time. Yeah I. I don't know if this matters. I have a slightly different view. I'm not a hundred percent wedded to it, but I think it's more liked when people really masses, people really want change. It's likely they'll bring along a bunch of people who are very polite and a bunch of people who are more radical, and that's just because they'll bring along a bunch of people. So when we start seeing fires or whatever breaking shit in the street, it just indicative often of how wide the sentiment is, so maybe it's easy to confuse Oh. We saw these scenes of chaos. That's what got people pay attention. Maybe it's easy to confuse that. That to a causation with the correlation then again you're right. There are lots of you know peaceful protests about environmentalism and you know. I I still don't say adequate moving on those fronts right? I think that you. You mentioned about people that are polite that are like okay. I can get behind this peaceful protests I think the issue is. Will they be there? When the circumstances are more murky, you know win. You know what I mean 'cause like anybody can look at this and say this is bad and something should be done about it, but our people committed those same polite people. Are they committed to this sort of action in SORTA? In activism that is required to deal with you know disproportionate. You know racial discrimination within policing. Just just last week I was talking to an attorney ended Lacey P. Legal Defense Fund, and you know in the middle of this while police chiefs all around the country are saying this is a horrid. This is horrible and we need to be more accountable in. This attorney. She was one of the people that one these like. Landmark concessions from NYPD in terms of stock, not stop and Frisk method right, and and so they. They were following up just last week. On the way, the NYPD was policing people in the midst of the pandemic about social distancing summits is right. It shown that. Eighty percent of the people that were cited for violating social, distancing black and Brown in New York and. So. They were going back to court, asking to court to look at NYPD NYPD it was you know not responsive. You know sort of. Making it difficult to get data and saying hey, we don't need to be under monitoring women. I mean that is a real persistent problem within policing in like the same people that mad about Joyce, Loyd will they be mad about that three weeks I? Guess we'll find out Joel Anderson. Rights for slade hosts podcasts on slate, and he's one of the three panelists on. Hang up and listen. Thanks so much Joel Hey Mike. Players! And, that's it for today. Show Margaret Kelly is the gist associate producer. She heard what drew. brees had to say desperate to know where Gardner minhsiu stands on these weighty matters. Daniel Schrader? Just producer knows me well enough to know. I, Think Gardner Minhsiu is the Blake Bortles of amusingly named Jacksonville Jaguars quarterbacks the. To Note, we've not been publishing the musings of Tom Cotton since twenty fourteen. Like some credit hooper that produce crew and thanks for listening.

Ferguson Michael Brown Jake Gardner Joel Anderson twitter America Officer New York NYPD Menendez attorney DA Gotha Nebraska Mike Pesca La Donald Trump mckesson CTV richmond
Police crack down on protests against racism and police violence

Front Burner

35:07 min | 5 months ago

Police crack down on protests against racism and police violence

"Hi I'm Dr Brian Goldman? If you haven't heard my new podcast the dose, this is the perfect time to subscribe. Each we answer your most pressing health related questions and right now we know you're grappling with covid nineteen on those we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus and post some of our own. Get the latest evidence in a way. That's easy to understand by subscribing to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcast. This is a CBC podcast. In Minneapolis. ATLANTA. New York. CHICAGO MIAMI WASHINGTON DC THE LIST GOES ON IN AT least seventy five American cities demonstrators demand an end to racism and police violence, and it's not just south of our border. It's here in Canada, too where people also rallied. Some of them holding signs that read justice for Regis. Regis Korchinsky Paquet, a black woman from Toronto, whose death last week is now being investigated by Ontario's police watchdog. Today the protests and the police reaction I'm out paddock. This is front burner. Law. We're going to cover a lot of ground today in a little bit with senior correspondent, Susan Ormiston who is in Minneapolis, covering the protests and Joel Anderson of slate on the wider police response, but we're starting today here at home with an update gear, a journalist who has worked for the Toronto Star and the sea including right here on front burner. Hyon. Hichiara so on. Saturday, you were at this rally in Toronto talking to people. It wasn't the only rally in our country, but it's the one you attended and a phrase that keeps coming up at that rally is justice for Regis? Reaches Krinsky paquet died last week. She apparently fell from the twenty fourth floor balcony of Toronto apartment while police were in the home. What do people who are at that rally? Mean when they say or were holding signs that said Justice for Regis. Right so reaches coach inskeep. Paquet was twenty nine years old, and she was a black woman from Toronto what people are saying when they are holding these signs dresses for Regis. They're really calling for accountability in regards to police inquest into the deaths of black people here in Canada I. Think the sentiment that is across the board for many of protestors. Is that anti-bok racism happens here in Canada to, and this isn't just. An American issue, it's not just people were marching in the name of George Floyd, but they were marching in the name of a black. Canadian Woman Desmond Cole All I see is that it takes black people being killed in another country for us to talk about that subject here. Because, it feels safer Canadians to talk about black racism and black death in the United States. It's very sad to me thinking that if there hadn't been unrest in Minneapolis, the media might not even be interested in what happened to Regis and so we don't know at this point What happened that night that She died the provincial watchdog of police. The Cy you special. Investigations Unit is looking into this, but some of the details. That we're hearing. About are coming from a lawyer for Korchinsky packets, family lawyers name. Is Nia sing? What is the lawyer saying so? The family's lawyer says that the mother called the police because she wanted help for her daughter. Rediscover Chins keep a cat who has epilepsy, and was under distress at the time was in distress over a family conflict. And her mother sought police assistance to bring calm to the situation. When the police arrived, Regis his mother Claudette her son, reese in Regis were waiting outside of the apartment and reduce needed to use a washroom, so she goes into the apartment and four to eight officers. Follow her in according to families lawyer, so from this point on the family are waiting outside of the apartment and. They don't know what's going on inside after approximately one to two minutes. The mother and the brother Heard Commotion In the apartment. And, then her regis cry out. MOM help. MOM, help. MOM help. After that mother and brother heard silence, the police exited the apartment, and the mother asked one of the police officers whereas Regis and the police officer of returned back into the apartment, and looked down and came back out and said that regis was on the ground. So that is the account from the family that the mother called the police asking for help to bring her daughter to. The Center for addiction and mental health, and she says, but I asked if they could take my daughter to Camp H, M. my daughter ended up dead. I! Don't understand, but do they believe. The police were involved outright in her death. So it's unclear what exactly the family believes at this point. Initially, they were saying that the police were responsible for her death in a video that went viral. o'malley's these murder. My cousin, the police killed to my daughter, came in my apartment schefter off the balcony. And CPI twenty four, not to come here that it's a suicide, but the only people who can speak on exactly what happened are the officers involved and regis who has died once the SL us. Mandate is invoked. Officers involved in incidents like this are no longer allowed to speak on the matter. So reiterating the family did not see what happened and the only people who did at this point can't talk about it. So? What do we know at this point about Toronto? Police Services Account of what happened that day. What is it saying so according to the? report, five fifteen PM. Police responded to what they described as a dispute call and when they arrived. At some point upon arriving, there was an interaction between a twenty nine year old woman, which who was later identified as readers Korchinsky cat, and she had fallen from the balcony, according to this report, so the details right off the bat, or quite bear and vague, and since then on Friday, the Toronto Police Service Mark Saunders spoke at a press conference and he said what happens is you'll have? Have opportunists that will step in and fill in those blanks in those gaps and a lot of it is misinformation, a lot of these lies, and because we're held back by not saying anything, it really does create a very toxic environment, and by that he is referring to the information that is spreading on social media. Because initially it was video that brought this new surface of Regis's death. And again, we don't know this point exactly. What went down in that apartment? But those at that demonstration on? Saturday were there because it echoes other situations as far as what we have much more confirmation around both here in Canada and end in the United States right right. People gathered to protest against anti black racism police brutality, but also to center that these issues are Canadian to for example, protesters were transiting lack mental health matters. And I saw signs of Canadian faces to like that of Andrew Local. He was a forty five year old black man who had mental health issues and July, two thousand fifteen, after police arrived as residents in Toronto video shows Loku with the hammer in his hand, walking towards police in his apartment hallway seconds after he steps out of frame, he was shot to death by constable Andrew Oil was shot and killed twenty one seconds. Seconds after police first encountered him recently in April, a black man named Deandra Campbell died following a shooting involving police in Brampton just outside of Toronto his family, says Campbell who had mental health issues was the one who had called police. The Special Investigations Unit says he was taste and shot dead, and I turned back, and by the time I turn back, the officer had the gun in his hand, and within seconds you should. So? I think generally speaking the takeaway sentiments. Here is a call for reform. It seems and also war police to re imagine deescalation practices. Every on your part of the black community, here Toronto and the larger community in Canada. And as you say the demonstration in Toronto, was in the context also of what's going on in the United States, but here at home, so Minneapolis is looming large. Yeah. I'd say so and I think what is happening in Minneapolis right now. is having an effect in the rest of the world as well and I. Think just looking at the images. The overview images of how many people were there and just attention that is lying. South of the border. It's really remarkable that it was a peaceful protests and for myself as both. A journalist and a black woman. It was important for me to be there to document this historic. Moment this to me this whole experience in this whole. Protests, seeing south of the border, but also here to me reminds me of the Rondi. King protests a bill the the gray travel. I feel that the jury in Femi Valley gave the okay to continue to abuse and our press into breast black people in this country, and it just appears at same issues. Keep occurring, keep occurring, but this time is during a global pandemic and people still came out despite social distancing measures, and despite the risk of nineteen. PM thanks thank. You PM. So. The weekend of demonstrations were sparked by the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Video of a police officer, pinning him down with a knee on his neck, went viral. That officer Derek Joven was charged with third degree, murder and manslaughter after three days of protests in the Minnesota City and the protests go on. ABC News Corespondent Susan Ormiston is on the ground in Minneapolis. I spoke to Susan Sunday evening. Hi, Susan. Hi! I can hear what I think is choppers overhead. What's going on there? Yeah I'm sitting very near a highway and late this afternoon. A protest move from the state capital, a large protests, thousands of people, the whole world is off kilter because of the action of these four men. Why should they be out free walking around? Lock them up. And they occupied the highway walking down there for several kilometers, so the choppers up above watching these demonstrations as these tensions continue here and so Susan you've been on the ground reporting in Minneapolis for a couple of days now you're really at the epicenter of all of this. Give me a sense of the scene. The mood in that city over the weekend. Well. It's consumed by this issue. the death of George Floyd last week has continued day after day, and I can only say what I've observed. There has been lots of violence Friday. Night was bad, Thursday night when they torched the precinct building, third precinct was worse. But authorities really lost control of on Friday. They actually abandoned many areas in the city which were looted and burned. And people don't like seeing their city disrupted, but they also many people. I've spoken to have a sense that injustice has really occurred here, and they are at one with the idea of trying to change and getting justice again for race relations in this city. And you know every morning there's a small army of citizens who come out with their brooms and shovels and clean up the mess. And I've asked lots of them. You know you can't like what you're seeing to your city. And they say no, but we also can't let this go without giving our attention to this issue and trying to figure out how to improve race relations in the city. We need justice for George Floyd. And if people are GonNa, destroy things, I'll be here to help. Clean Up We need justice, I don't think the looting and the of course alluding that right I don't think the writing in the burnings right? But this is so much more complicated than yes or no. This isn't you said that police essentially abandoned parts of the city on Friday, so then what happened on Saturday? What did you see on that day Saturday was very different Saturday night at in another area next to a police precinct. The riot police were ready. They had a plan. They acted swiftly and as I'm sure, many people saw they came out to disperse those crowds and they weren't going to stop until that happens. So full it's tear gas. There was a peaceful protest of Sev several thousand people, kneeling and sitting on the ground, but they were defying the curfew, and when the police came out, they scattered. You mentioned. The change in the police approach more aggressive one on Saturday and you mentioned rubber bullets. Tear gas was also used and you. Yourself got hit. Didn't you Susan what happened? And and more importantly are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. You know I mean a lot of people don't understand, but this is a part of our responsibility. Our job to to to be witness to what's happening. So when it kicked off and the riot police started to advance, we were with the crowd. They were running away and we were trying to stay to watch what the police were doing how the protesters were responding? And there was a lot of gas, they were firing. Canisters pretty regularly, and it's blinding and choking. We had gas masks on, so we could stay in the vicinity. The police line was a typical riot police line shoulders locked moving in a strong line of over one hundred officers, moving up the street, and they had moved up so that they were within our vision, but all the protesters had gone further ahead. We couldn't see them anymore. They stopped. We stopped. We were about maybe thirty meters away in a parking lot. And for several minutes watched them. They watched us and then they fired us. Hooked They fired a some gas towards this The chemistry hit me in the rear end actually and they fired rubber bill. So at that was the message move out of here. Don't matter who don't don't care who you are. You gotta be out of this area, and so it was prudent for us then to back off and go around to find where the protesters had been. Waiting. Or Underpass? Better better. They hit me with the Magnesium Argon. Susan just before I. Let you go. You have covered all kinds of conflict in all parts of the world, many demonstrations the middle. East Asia Eastern Europe and now in the United States where you are based. Put this what you're seeing into that context. It looks very very intense and and difficult on the television or on social media, but given the context of this for you. Yup, here, you know I. Barely had time to process this and think intelligently about all this, but what what I sense is this is a real coldren Timing wise as well. I mean here you have everyone locked down for the last three to four months with Corona Virus people definitely have lost their jobs here like everywhere in the world. You've got an election coming in less than six months. You have the president of this country in some people's minds, really adding fuel to this fire earlier in the week calling the demonstrators, thugs and Several Times telling the mayor of this city in the middle of the chaos that he's weak and can't control his city. You have all these elements at play, and then the primary thing here is this decades old? Deep painful conflict of racism in this country. And you know the nature of that video that almost everyone I've spoken to has seen is so painful. Oh. It's so blatant. That this, it's no wonder really. This kicked off. I spoke to a man at the demonstration at the state capital this afternoon and he said we warn the city. We warned them after other incidents where black men had been killed by white police officers that there was going to be an incident like this when been doing this for the last five years peacefully. Marching. Demonstrations peacefully. We've been telling the city and the authorities. They had to change the makeup of the police department and the general politics of race in this city and they didn't listen. He said this was bound to happen. You cannot continue to oppress beatdown, marginalized red line and kill people and think we ain't gonNA. Stand up and eventually fight back. This is the uprising I'm not with all of the looting, but dammit understanding so of course you know I don't need to tell anybody. This country has suffered through so many bouts of tents. Incidents like this I've been at a couple. Ferguson was one. It's as deep and as difficult, but I think this layer of all these uncertainties right now has just made it up coldren of trouble. And I don't think anybody can reliably predict at this moment where it's going to go whether it, the tensions will diminish or whether something new. We'll kick it off and this will be. An even more difficult situation, but You know I've been. I've been moved. I guess I'll say by. The the resolve, many citizens black and white that I've observed over the last few days. They are really committed to change. There was a young woman in tears today talking to me at the demonstration. A white woman, saying I can't believe in my generation that we're still having to deal with this super unfair. The people can't. Be who they are. Nobody should be murdered just by the color of their own skin gots insanity There was another guy who said he was cleaning up an office soup. an office depot store that was looted and and set ablaze, and he was in their mopping up the sprinkler. Water is a young black man. And he said Yeah people are destroying property, but people are also coming out to fix it, and now it's up to the higher ups to fix the problem. There's there's a reason and hopefully people are listening, and people are watching, and people are going to pay tensing now. But people have fixing themselves here now. The people have taught me to fix the root of the issue. Susan. Thank you. Please take care of yourself. Ok P, thank you. Hi, I'm Dr. Brian Goldman. If you haven't heard my new podcast the dose, this is the perfect time to subscribe each week. We answer your most pressing health related questions right now. We know you're grappling with covid nineteen on the dose we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus, and post some of our own the latest evidence in a way that's easy to understand subscribing to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcasts. As we've mentioned and is you've probably seen on social media. Protests have not been limited to Minneapolis. They've been all across the United States and in many places. The police response has been severe I'm joined by Joel Anderson. Who just wrote a piece for slate about that response? His piece is called. The police don't Change High Joel. To So as you looked out across your country this weekend, the protests in cities from coast to coast. What did you see? Well I saw a lot of anger. you know people are clearly disturbed upsets in ready to take to the streets after the you know the viral video of George Floyd's resume around and it's far. You see it if anything other than that as an expression of you know Cynthia Deep Anger Grief people that were disturbed at saying that on camera and taken to the streets to say hey, this has got to stop one way or another. What did you see in terms of the police response? Well so I covered protests. Two Thousand Fourteen fifteen so that. It wasn't until The police started asking the crowd to move twenty feet back. That things start to get a escalated Baltimore's protesters. Overwhelming patrol cars, shattering windshields, setting cars on fire, left burning industries here at the Staten Island and back then what we saw were. Police officers you know. In all of this like military, a lot of military theater coming out riot gear come got the tanks, and you know setting parameters and everything else, and just kind of really setting themselves apart from protesters and really confrontational pose, and so you'd think Oh. Wow, we'll know. Day should be over. People should have known that that is an ineffective way policing and monitoring protests that they come up with some different tactics of the in the time since then, but no I. I saw basically the same things that we saw in Ferguson in Baltimore. Where you know, police were aggressive agitating the crowd, just generally doing the sorts of things that we thought that they had learned to not do five or six years ago as you say, these protests were of course sparked by the killing of George Floyd. They are about police brutality, so take me through some of the responses to these protests. You have seen from police over the weekend. Well Yeah I. Mean obviously it's hard to nothing to start New York. You know our nation's largest city where you know you saw you know. Police officers driving through crowds of protests and every. You know and there's just. A number of videos showing police officers, needlessly getting physical with protesters, pushing a woman down so hard and she had a seizure later. I was an aggressive towards police officer. Steven I was should have the sulfur for strength to not hurt the people. He's supposed to be protecting. There was a journalist where I. She literally lost her eyesight, so she was shot. Rubber Bullets even in Seattle the west coast this country. They're police. Chief is a black woman. Thought of is fairly progressive. Hit said. Things in the wake of Floyd's death right a joystick chief Carmen Bass released in open statement to the officers of her department tonight chew referred to the death of George Floyd as a quote, tragic murder by the Minneapolis. Police Department. The statement goes on to say I. Have Confidence that something like this would not occur in our city. And then we kept on video shoe of our officers. Beating up a protest you know got it got a poke type approach on the ground and throwing. That sort of stuff. I mean not so many videos like it was basically hard to keep up with. One of our own was Susan Ormiston, who is just talking to our reporter on the ground, was hit with a rubber bullet in. It wasn't just journalists. It was people being hit by rubber bullets fired by police. We saw people getting teargassed in certain cities are flash BANGS. How does that kind of aggressive response by police in various American cities these last couple of days match up with what we've been hearing from police leadership over the last week. Well yes, sure so, for instance. It's right there in Minneapolis. You know the police chief who earned a lot of praise for firing before officers involved employees killing, and he said the right thing you know saying that there was a deficit of hope in the city in as I. Wear this uniform before you I know that This department has contributed to that deficit of hope, but I will not allow. To continue to increase the deficit. By, Re traumatizing those folks in our community, but if you look on Saturday and you look at the response to the people in the streets I mean. We have people that were reporting. Hey! Police Officers State troopers just indiscriminately firing tear gas and people, pepper spray and I mean this is in the middle of a of a global pandemic as well as the public safety matter in another way I probably health safety matter when you're shooting that sort of stuff, if people in the middle of the pandemic right, so that was one example and Houston you know their police chief are off? It'll who is well known you know and progressive circles for being sort of a you know really big reformer and same really good things about what policing does wrong and what it could do better. If you go to look at some of the videos like some of the reports that came out of there that police officers his police officers. We're going after people agitating protesters turning nonviolent protest violent essentially, and so it's just really difficult for their words to hold up I. Mean They can say these things, but until we see them reflected in the behavior of the opposite. It's really tough to believe that any of that matters. So whether we look at Atlanta or many other places, curfews were put in place. people defied the curfew. Song. The police almost everywhere. Also met with things being thrown at them rocks and some cases. Property being destroyed and again, of course, this is not everyone who's on the street, but that that is part of the mix that's out there. So how do you think? Police could have better responded. If not the way they're doing then what? Well I think there's one at things right. Either they don't respond that. They're not out there because their presence alone is an. Know I mean people in it. Having covered some of these protests before. Police show up then all of a sudden tensions rise so I've seen it enough times to know that sometimes. The police aren't there in the first place that people don't have anything to respond to four. There's also you know and I believe. This was in Flint Michigan, where I saw the police chief. Told US officers stand down, and he went out there and join the protesters, and they welcomed them into their crowd right, and that's another way we want to be with. You offer real. I took the helm off the laser batons down. I WANNA. Make this a parade. But. The way that they that they've done it city the city for the most part going out there in military gear, bringing tanks out the coming out and ride gear. That clearly has proven to be ineffective in Tampa down the tensions and anger in the crowd so. A minimum, they could not bring out right here. They could leave the tanks at home and see how it goes from there. As a journalist, and also as a black man, because both are integral parts of who you are Joel it is hard for any of us. to know what you know the new day, so to speak will bring, but what he hopes GonNa come from all of us. Wow Peace and for police departments. To consider the idea that it would be useful to root out. Discriminatory and racist practices. People's patience with beliefs is short now, and hopefully they see that, and they go about reforming their behavior, and also I hope that people you know city council members mayors across the country seriously think about the way in which police departments are funded and police departments. Basically, they're all. Their own plant in within cities and budgets I mean there. When cities and other municipalities cut budgets. They very rarely do that, so police departments. They're sort of impervious all that stuff and I'll just you know you wonder if maybe? These people think about. Hey, you know. Maybe we should attempt to treat them as city employees like they are. You know it'd be worth thinking about you know maybe putting some restraints or putting in more. Guidance of the Police Department is the law. Enforcement agencies rather than just sort of letting operate under. Probably like you go Are you doing I and I ask that, not just in a sort of flipping tower. You doing kind of way am, but. We know and people keep explaining how difficult this is for black Americans and Black Canadians. And how different is for someone like you than many other of your colleagues are journalists who who are white. Well, you know I'm personally fine, but. More broadly I'm really sad and I'm afraid. I mean this. We're truly living in unprecedented times and you know I see people out in the street anger. And I've seen you know the desperation and you know I feel that you know. I mean like you said I'm a black man in America. You know I've been stopped by police a number of times in my life. and it's really difficult. You can understand why people are sort of set up and just hope that. It ended. It's something positive comes of it. and I'm just really worried that. You know you can I thought. Covering Ferguson in Baltimore if they were going to be a sea change that people really going to go about reforming police. you know seeing change and discriminatory policing that people would be much more open to the idea that you know systemic racism as a problem and that we need to attempt about shipping away at that right and it didn't happen, and so we're back at the same place again and in a place where it's actually more danger salad. Who really you know? The the idea that people gathered by tens of thousands in the middle of a pandemic. Really severe risk to themselves they could really get sick. They could really get something out there and bring it home and they're out there because they're so upset and there, so you know mad about what's going on right now might tells you you know. The extent of how bad things are here right now and I'm just like. We're just GONNA. Go. Yeah, that's a long. That's a long winded way of saying I'm very truly worried about the direction, our country especially in the middle of election year to. So many people hope and pray on our on the streets, hoping that this leads to real change and not the same sort of ending told these protests Ferguson, as you say I'm Joe. Thanks a lot. Be Safe and take good care of yourself. Hey! Thanks so much for. Much. Before we go today. I wanted to mention another demonstration. That took place on Sunday evening. Thousands rallied outside police headquarters in Montreal to protest the death of George Floyd Racism and police violence here in Canada around eight PM, please declared the protest illegal and started throwing canisters of tear gas. This is a story. We're going to keep following. That's all for today I'm Piacenza Pat I. Think you so much for listening to front burner. We'll talk again tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts. GOTO CBC DOT. Ca Slash podcasts.

George Floyd Susan Ormiston officer Police Department Minneapolis Regis Korchinsky Paquet United States Toronto Toronto Police Canada Joel Anderson Ferguson murder Dr. Brian Goldman New York Atlanta
Academic Procrastination: A Graduate Student's Story

iProcrastinate Podcast

51:00 min | 1 year ago

Academic Procrastination: A Graduate Student's Story

"Hello, this is tim facial back with another I procrastinate podcast for this Wednesday December the nineteenth twenty eighteen. I have an interview today with Bavin project. Patty. Bhavan and I have an interesting connection Bavin contacting by earlier this year. He had struggled with some procrastination and his graduate studies. In fact, when he first contacted me, he sent me a link to. Post posted he made at the Western Ontario. University Western University now it's used to be the University of Western on Cherry announced Western University in London, Ontario. And it's a really interesting post in I'll put a link to it in the show notes. If you'd like to read it and as you hear them, we're talking he has a blog as well now. But Bavin struggled at one point with his own graduate studies and he wrote to be to reach out and say you know you're I've been a long time listener to your podcast and I think something along the lines of you saved my life, which was an exaggeration I'm sure. But it caught my attention to say, well, let's get together and he made time when he was up in Ottawa twice now to meet and chat, and so the first time we chatted over a cup of coffee in the library and then we thought you know maybe we should share this more widely and that's what I'm bringing you to today. I think I'd like to read you just a little bit of the Post he put at the Western University he said I'm sharing my story because Grad school woes are not only discussed. Maybe it's taboo to do so or perhaps far too often blame is placed on the wrong people on struggling Grad students ultimately depart after months or even years of. The intended deadline they don't broach the subject it's a debt reducted experience and he said he couldn't do that. But when he was reflecting on his and shortcomings, he noted failures and shortcomings or opportunities to define purpose and habituate self mastery with one condition. It's only an opportunity. If you see it as one, it's yours in yours alone once anyone acknowledges this everything to remedy your struggle becomes bearable whether it's reading a book or asking for help from a supervisor. You can see there the honesty the embrace of the struggle and the real optimism in the kind of things he has to say, and that's what you're going to hear in the interview today. It's more it's not truly an interview. I suppose it's really just a sitting down in front of the microphone and talking about. His experience at graduate school and how that danced with his work experience in how the two were solo importantly entwined to lead them to the place where he's at right now, which is night and day difference from the darkest points, his own struggle, and that's what makes it. So interesting particularly for any of you and we all get there at some point in time but maybe some of you are there. Right, now in your own dark night of the soul, we might say I was there in my own graduate studies and I don't know many students who don't get there at some point, it might not be Undergrad studies it could be some other time but that's how do we break that procrastination habit and has said bitchy wait self mastery I. Really Love that phrase and he talks a little bit about what? Prompted that change and what kind of habits what Charles, Duhig might call keystone habits have become foundational for him in his journey to wellbeing because you know that. Progress. On our our tasks that are central to us, the things that define us are things that really contribute to our our meaning and well being in life. So without any further ado, let me take you over to our conversation together this Bavin. Project Patty, talking a little bit about his experience at Graduate School and how he turned a corner. Bhavan I'm just so happy you could make time for a little chat today we we had A. Coffee together a month ago now. and. We said we should do this together for the podcast. As I've told listeners in the preamble I was really interested in. The notion that you are stuck at one point and how incredibly unstuck you got because right now you're just thriving again and so I really wanted to ask you a little bit about. Yeah. What was it like to get stuck? How did he get stuck? What happened during that time, right? So really I mean it's really started doing Grad school like a lot of people especially the audience of this podcast on this law Grad students listen to this podcast and guess to Grad. School I started feeling. Stuck with your Masters thesis or research. Project I would say and And just some context I guess my background I you know super involved in school like I. I was involved in logic extra `collectivities whether it'd be residence life or in student council or in some cases, the university. Senate I was heavily involved in I. Loved what I did. So how had motivations to do things but it was strange when he started feeling stuck with fewer. Which research and? Things like, for example, like what really kind of started the stuck part was as soon as coursework finished, sue start running your proposal. To Send Me Your be to research ethics and I think that's when things started getting a little more stock and I started kind of going towards A. Bit of a spiral but looking back in retrospect and is is probably the seeds were planted much earlier. Okay well. Be Fair, the words stuck and unstuck in mind. So we could should move away from those two and as you began to speak their what becomes obvious that there are just one part of your life that wasn't going well like at school you were really doing lots of things you say and it sounds like the coursework well. It's just when you got into the master's thesis research process that. You could say like stock is one thing. Derail another unable to move forward what kind of words would you put? It was more I really felt like I was moving but I was smoking a hamster wheel made sense have just Well. You say you're you're stuck in the sand wheels are spinning bright and a hamster wheel you're running hard but not getting anywhere where you really running hard in some ways I was in some ways I wasn't so. Good example was I was always reading papers. I was always. Being diligent about what else trying to research and put things together and get organized. But then same time it kept doing that and it. Felt repetitive felt. Odd in that sense and felt unproductive. But I didn't realize at the time unproductive. So you're reading papers but it felt unproductive. Can you give me an example of that? Yeah. Because I was reading papers, our liked all over the place. Right? It wasn't necessarily just bought my thesis or the topic in question it was it was. Everything even. Remotely related to it or even some cases I was reading papers I probably shouldn't be reading. Because because you had access to an incredible database of academic journal. I was definitely there's the element of procrastination there. But what I think what I saw what I didn't want to admit to myself. Is because. I want to go back to their coursework part it was successful. Yes. I did do the coursework however I was a big procrastinator. So, for example, my colleagues would spend two weeks on their papers four hours before it's too but she'd pull it. I pulled off at the State Marcus them. So it justified that all I can do this and I felt good about it felt confident about it actually. Helped because all the super involved in school. So I was able to kind of like do more. Interesting social activities which have actually helped me in many other respects too. So I don't want to say that that bad idea, but it was. It did fuel the. The engine for procrastination of that makes sense. Yeah. We're GONNA come back to the nation. But before we do it's so interesting There's a great book classic called Xenon the heart of motorcycle maintenance, and in that book, talk a lot about education and learning ways of thinking in at one point they the author discusses for says that you know select the best students who do the worst sometimes. So when you're telling me, you're reading other things of say because you've got a really active mind. You've made time to do this for example, and you're writing a really fascinating blog and. And you've and you've always wanted to give back and so you're. You're not. A single focused individual So I WanNa make sure everyone understands that you know the single-mindedness can be just as much a liability as a strength. But at times we need to be single-minded. Exactly right. You wanted to finish this thesis and so that wasn't happening. No wasn't happening and and I guess what added to the fire and or I didn't know it was a fourth time really I mean I I've actually got approval and started doing recruitment recruitment was actually really difficult and I definitely was very optimistic and I had high expectations. I had a set timeline I wrote my my timeline down and I had to do Xyz by this date and the the the my my findings on this day like it was very systematic and very methodical with how I wanted to do things. So two things happen I seen through Kerpen was actually quite tough. To get participants into your study, then obviously doing the research on I was doing. But the other part that was what added and it was personal I'll I injured my knee. And dot kind of injury was I mean I? I was in. I was basically crutches for three weeks, right so that was interesting because now someone who is super active and doing things and was. Able to moving mobile both. Literally. And metaphorically. I was sucked now so that I was literally sucking this point. So now it's like I can't do work right nor can I do other things suddenly you just start going down down and The. That started basically the whole process or or the whole cascade effect on when things really really got stuck. Okay. But then you did note that when you're doing coursework, you're able to pull it off the last minute. But one thing about thesis is that you can't just by definition project is extended over time and. You know maybe it was inevitable. The. Becomes a story that becomes part of your own narrative. But as as a psychologist, I'm wondering I wondered to what extent that just becomes a focal point right? As opposed to. G research is difficult sustaining that attention isn't something you've been doing before. It's still your account and I'm not dismissing just challenging a little bit because. He was three weeks and you know theses Kinda work you're doing participants took time anyhow to. Yeah. So what was the experience like? Then you're you've got your on crutches you've been having challenges getting participants. What did it feel like inside that? You started to say. I not able to because I. Think at some point with our procrastination. We feel like we can do no other do. So what did it feel like you? So baffling came a little later basically like my initial focus was I wanted to get better because I was an active individual. I missed running I missed the gym and all sorts of things and. And, obviously, you're in pain because and I'm a stickler for not taking pain medicine because I was scared of that. stubby. Advil I get it, but it's just one of those things that I had a hard time with. So my initial focus was to get better and I'll do some things on the side once able to. Chair for long periods of timer etc rates. So that was slowly. So I was making great progress on that front now, and the funny thing was I was still. Sort of involved for my phone and my laptop in the bed trying to get involved in school again. So as using starting to to assuage or I guess like like. That's where I started to build like really big voice mechanisms or for the thesis because it's like, okay, I want to get better WanNa feel happy because I was pretty miserable with injury. So women me happy was extra activities. So then that started like me being avoiding the the thesis work, and while he still did it, I definitely could have done more looking back of course, but that's would eventually be that started pushing deadlines again, and that's when things start pushing further and further out so and by better I it was like really better I, was probably like probably like. I was already going to go one semester over right. So that's fine. So what I could do one semester, right? In that but. For some reason I. I As I started doing the analysis. So I finished transcription all all my qualitative Previously I finished my analysis on. All, the resale, all the participants idea and they had and I started. Decoding and starting like to. Call the transcript trying to organize things, flying themes and all sorts of things, and this is the first time I've done. in-depth qualitative analysis like us. That's not just descriptive as grounded methodology to this and I also had. To Go to my supervisor to say, Hey, I need more help because I had this maybe bravado that I can do this on my own but really I definitely need help I wanNA, ask for help. So there is because I was like I'm stuck and finish this. If I keep asking for help. ME. God had his perpetual fear that somehow I is going to keep pushing me further and further out of my deadline because I might be wrong and I just want to do it was we were kind of self deception kind of going myself Blah into. That's really an interesting part of your story that you only ever talked about the I chatted that. Joel Anderson who has been on this podcast before talks about the notion of extended will instead of relying on our own willpower sometimes, we need others in here. You were not wanting to use person who might have been a resource. And that's what copy studying procrastination in the first place I was interviewing students and they said Oh we're not doing anything I said well, is there something you should be working on? They said, they are comp example I said, well, how is that going all terrible I said, well, why is that? This is because we really don't know what to do. I said, well, why don't you ask your adviser? I don't want him to know I'm not doing any rate. Yeah, this kind of. Terrible Ball. Yeah. So so you're in this situation we're actually you know to this point in store I think a lot of this like I am feeling you're doing really well, you've got the ethics clearance you collect your data you did all that transcription, which is a huge job. You're now coating your data. What happened that? What happened then is that it I thought this will be my last semester. Speaker this is I'm already one semester over. It does happen Grad school and it is a reality of research and I knew that going in so that wasn't necessarily surprise to me. What happened was I conflict I guess I made my situation more complicated because. I. Want. You know crap and get a job. So. So what happened was, I, start applying for jobs. And that became I wasn't prepared for the expectations or I didn't set the right expectations for myself because I didn't really network anybody talk to people. What is she like to look for work? In after school and you know I have. A degree in health science and I thought they would be. Thorough jobs I thought they will be openings left right and center, and then see start applying smell I'll get an interview soon. Nope never happened and then you get a really good interview then suddenly just falls apart the basically pattern kept happening where he's come applying for jobs and suddenly you just don't hear anything back and I think that really slumped me. So you had you emotional response. Yeah. Absolutely. That kind of took the Linda your sales in some ways. Yeah. In some ways I as the greater describe it because I think that because now I started focusing on I, got to improve my resume I got to improve. The way apply for jobs and then dot took a lot of my willpower because I'll do that in. For like a good chunk in my day, but it's also a very demoralizing part of your day because you're applying sending resumes. All the time every hour. Regular going at night have to go to work on this difficult thesis and your dislike I don't have the energy or the motivation to do all tomorrow. And you could reverse did, of course, have done a few hours on your thesis and then gone down the other stuff your priority as you said for right or wrong was that you needed a job which is true. Yeah. So you know what's interesting I think what's the elephant in the room at this point for listeners is like why are? These two guys talking. So at one point then the this podcast itself. And some of the stuff that we write enters your life when did went into the half of yeah. So I guess I'll start with how was starting to all in this period of time I was pretty I was very stuck and I was trying to figure things out and what happened randomly I was at the library. Liberal time and I just saw book that I've seen for so many years and I just caught my eye on a bookshelf and it was the Moncus Ferrari by Robin Sharma and. WHO SOLD HIS FERRARI? Yes. Yes. It's an old book from ninety six I believe or something like that. I just picked it up because I remember seeing all my friends, bookshelves some of these executives keep it. In their office. Classic thinks Zen and the art of maintenance or getting things done is a more recent one, the seven habits of highly effective. These are all classic books that way. Yeah, and Now, this time just some more context I almost stopped talking to my supervisor at this point. So I was really like anxious to even mention I'm struggling with us I really fell into a dark crevice in. I wanted to get out I was just basically in this like dark valley essentially trying to find my way when really I can just you know shoot a flare gun and go hey, i. need help and someone will come. I didn't want to shoot that flare gun for some for some odd reason and maybe it's M- is probably related to anxiety could have been dislike. Pride thing there's a whole bunch of things that can explorer. A smaller time. But I guess what happened with when I started reading that book suddenly like I was primed to listen almost and I just kept reading that book I finished it that picked up another book, another book and all sorts of topics there wasn't seeing focus but the fact that was actually doing something productive and reading which I wasn't really which I hit me I I think three or four books in. I didn't. I, haven't been reading I've been doing this. I was almost. A WHEEL ACCENTS? And And essentially like I started reading more about like psychology and motivation and and then suddenly I stumble upon your name through a book that wants to reserve. Procrastination Book, You wrote at the library reserved it but like let me see what Elsie high of nine down your. PODCAST and I just listened to I can't remember which one I listened to I. I. I just picked one to start listening to next thing I went I went through all of them. That's procrastination itself. Camby everyone should know that if you're listening. You can you can dive in? You could do a deep dive but at the same time if if you emerge from that which this? Pattern stories about That's a good thing. So you now into the podcasts what have? Yes. So what happened so Realized that okay. This is not just about the thesis here at this point like there's aspects of my life that needs to be improved. In a very. Important Way and one thing I realize this is kind of talking to. My father. My Father I. Mean he told me about like our roots in. India where we are. POTTERS, right. Solely solely. I. Mean by data for wasn't a potter but the the family there from it's kind of related to that and and potters are known to wake up at three in the morning. I was going to bed at this time at four in the morning, and after reading the Ferrari which is whole. The whole premise is like know the whole book starts are as a whole lessons of the book starting at five am in the story I'd like I'm going to wake up at five. Am that was the first thing I do I learned to wake up at five? AM It took a long time together? I was sleeping at four. So now you have to flip it. And that was a game changer for me just like huge huge game changer in terms of how I approach my day and how I approach my mindset in like how like just do start today to properly was really the first big step in this whole unstuck process on how to actually start moving again. Yeah. But it's interesting too. That is partly because you chose you made it started to make a decision again at going to bed late often isn't a decision it's. Pathetic sort of approach to life should go to bed I. Don't feel like a ten and there's a lethargy that brings about now you're making a choice you're. Exerting you're, GonNa your agency and saying I'm going to get up early. Okay. So that that that's a pivotal moment now in the room much like the knee in your area was a moment where you're recognized. I I. I'm happy. Now you're saying I got root here. So you're up now you're up in the morning early. In the morning s just started reading I noticed that I'm really focused on I I'm I'm I'm good to go like it's like whatever I did in the morning it doesn't matter I try different things I've tried like journaling tried. Reading writing all sorts of things because I I just noticed that I'm is focused with whatever I did. And I'm like this is interesting. So let's start experimenting with US and around this time it's like I'm already. I'm already three semesters now rights and I haven't done any really big progress because again it's I'm still trying to kind of get Outta of this crevice and this point found a part time job. At a out of up in Toronto CAU- builder these social media analytics. And I took a you know what I into it was humbling moment because it's like I just need a job. Instead of being picky about the job says I'm going to pick something and or whatever comes to me we'll come to me I'll take it was part time at first and but it's something to apply. New Routine. So we're in the morning so that really kind of galvanized. Okay. Working the morning at the start of really kind of helped the confidence myself to actually you get up to work. And actually building something like that's actually. Tangible for once. So because I kind of lost a feeling of of a water something, she'll look after work on it right now and I can be like that. Yeah. But that but this is interesting. Now, if I was your adviser, I'd be freaking out great. You're getting up in the morning but you call under another job. Yep what's happening to your thesis? Yeah. So so what happens is I started I I I was so like hyped about them about the work that I kind of didn't really make much progress, right? But eventually, things started moving in my direction and I started picking out out slowly I worked is what I started doing. One of the things I learned from the podcast that was really like the most important thing. Today is implementation. Intention. And Dot was important 'cause I'm a visual thinker. and. contextual Le Think within within the confines environment and I just started writing I'm GonNa work on it for one hour day. But. Then for those listeners who maybe a new, you can go back and listen to stuff on implementation intentions. But Peter, goal what's your defined implementation as tension as in situation ex? All do behavior Y to achieve subgoals at hand it's really conditional and it puts I like the words you use this context, it puts the cue for action into the environment and it helps break habits because you say, Oh, assistant Jewish. This behavior. So how did implementation intentions play itself out for you? Yes. So it was great. It was basically wrote essentially after the gym for one hour I will go to starbucks and work on it yet. So now you everything's context after the gym that's signal I'm going to starbucks has to and I'm going to work for one hour. It's even more than implementation attention. Now, because you know some people call the pomodoro technique or or or even just time limited. But now you've actually said I'm not gonNA talk about being there the whole day I'm going to Sango work for an hour. You can work for an hour exactly how some people might WanNa short in that. But I, think ours a decent chunk especially when you're talking about a thesis. Yeah and and really but again in the morning Dow Dow key thing I couldn't work after. Beasley twelve right essentially. Not that didn't work out for twelve, it was more the kind of work that requires Amory's requires I just felt that the morning was my was my primetime and I once had I started doing one hour and at the same time to start happening I got hired at swift medical. So just some I guess some background I was working eh incubator so take. A company and so there's an y floor. There was an incubator you mean a real incubator as. Like a well, the called an incubator basically, it's it's open floor concept office and each group of tables like a company. Ok almost like an incubator for rec- eggs right it's like a kind of idea you're going to hatch new ideas exactly. So I was working on one and then swift medical moved in beside us and my CEO my CEO, today because I work with medical today. And and they weren't health tech and what I wanted to do. So this is where it gets kind of funny because it's like not gone through all this stuff I would not have been at at at Crowley babble and then. Eventually sinks with medical move in. So it's kind of a funny little story on how. How up with medical but I bow happened was here's a company that wants to hire me there early stage. So was I think the eighth or ninth employee at the time? Now. We're eighty this scale. So it's a really big change then but back, then I was like eight or nine employees, and now I go suddenly this jolt of. Motivation that while this is actually what I wanted to do, and suddenly our of work became three hours. He should know that Bobbins not a student at my university. I mean, because people listened from all over the world, you should know that it's about a seven hour drive from Carl University where we're sitting to Western university where Bobbins studied and so we've met through the literature through the podcast and so But I'm sitting here in my office and I'm an academic and I'm hearing this. Puck, he's not a student anymore on. Framingham that way he's telling, but he's got a job give what about the thesis now we're getting close because I i. hear the Motivation Building that I'm sure you do on his voice to but still like a startup conduct dry the you're kind of to you just left one. Social Media, and now you're going to go into med the medical field where you WANNA be health field How did you get back to the thesis? Yes. A just added because I was doing what I wanted to do. I still walk up in the morning, but instead of the one hour I, I was before three hours in the morning and has got done. I've got you expand that one hour to three hours and you were able to maintain your focus for us. Yeah. It was the weirdest thing I can't explain it. I had so much energy. I had bolt of energy. Because like how House working at this company? Yes. It was a start up and I was working insane hours from that. But at least from six am to nine am thousand time to finish that these. Yeah. It's so fascinating to listen to the story and I'm sure you have more to say that as sit here from my endless into the narrative. On the one hand I'd say, yeah well, you develop some meaning and purpose and that filled your sales again back to that metaphor. But at the same time, you did boil it down to while you bootstrapped it in some ways to with an implementation intention or with the monk who sold his for Ari One of the habit the habits you know a keystone habit. If we borrow from Charles Duke in his book on Habits, you saw this as yeah getting up in the morning was a game changer for me. That's why it's a keystone habit other things changed you layered into that implementation attention after the gym is now taking care of body. I'm going to go to devote some time he started with one hour, but then you are able to expand that to three hours because now your motivation is being fueled by I'm doing things that really invigorate me. As you said, I've got tons of energy. So how long did it take you to finish your thesis after that after that obviously just some added. more background to this I. I was able to get more confidence to also talk reviser really be open about really was was the big thing again really just that stuff changes with medical and just saying, Hey, this is what I'm doing now and I'm sorry I didn't like compared to earlier because yes, I could ask for help earlier but some prisons is built more confidence and I'll be able to be more vulnerable to provide I. think that was the most important thing, but it might be at some level to also had now in perhaps I'm only speculating you has set what felt like a more legitimate reason for being. Put these things together like I have this really cool job. As opposed to feel pathetic put him not doing any work. Because, we all have to have a license that I love the word you just used. The licensed to be vulnerable. So, you need a little bit more behind you to open up and be vulnerable. But as I to the thing is once you became vulnerable, then a gift came to his support. was there all the time? Wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well. Yeah I didn't ask that. I'm not really that sexism. Did make the assumption and that's wrong. One actually particularly in my own discipline, there are more female academics now than their male really as base rate, it was a silly assumption but. All of a sudden now, you're getting support from you. Advise you feeling more motivated? You've got a routine in your life that's giving you time to do your work. Yeah. Yeah. So they take very long finish. No. So I finished it within flaw four months great it was four months but instead of doing the defense, I had the option to do a research project. So I basically sports towards that and it was reviewed by by Third Party essentially, because I got my program, we have at least. workflow and the. workflow and of course, is because I I. Love. Taking class. That I switched to that one and just got approved because it's like looking at the time and stuffy I mean you know at this point like I'm very happy with what I produced. And something I'm still trying to figure out how to get published but I decided you want it's okay I'm about the defense because to me I wasn't at the time thinking PhD or anything so I felt. It was the same depth and and product I would say. It just was defend it essentially no I hear you listen to what you've done and all our listeners probably feel the same way all those interviews transcription, the rigorous approach to collecting themes, all of that. I listen to your story and I'm hoping others here. The same thing that. reflected. On this, it's Not a linear path. As you said remarking on it if I hadn't gone to the Social Media Company, I, wouldn't have been sitting there when this other company moved in and life has that sort of. serendipity. And in fact, even when you were in the library and you said this book I'd seen title many times before. But now in a sense you are ready for. We have to be open to that, and it comes with a bit of self compassion to that if you closed off to that and and beat yourself up. then you would have never been open to opportunity to sands, right? Yeah. So you've been listening to the podcast for quite a while he you mentioned implementation intentions were there anything other things or other things that you read that made a difference on a day-to-day basis for not going down the procrastination? You know just just to be clear I still struggle with it. It's it's not it's not. It's still a work in progress It's probably a life's journeys worth of to deal with and I think the most important thing I've learned about procrastination is I. It's it's not as simple as what we were told the high schools they use putting off. It's a task management issue or whatever you WANNA call it. Yeah or it's really It was really it's a multifaceted layered Phenomenon I think it's it's emotional specifically, but it's also can be added. It can have other aspects to it that that are more in depth and in deep actually to the person whether it be neuroticism or or someone who is not emotionally aware of themselves. So there's a whole there's a whole blankets like can't warm can open with procrastination which I which I've learned to appreciate and everyone has a different flavor report and like how operates because we're all as I teach my personality course, we're like all other people. This is actually a famous quote from the nineteen fifties by personality psychologists. All of the people like some other people and like no other person right and today we're getting to meet Bhavan like no other person in some respects. Here's a very unique are unique. We don't say Barry here's his unique story. Of course it is because you're talking about yours, but other people will say, Oh, you're a lot like me running your life. And then you're like all other people that it is, we're always a work in progress. I don't know anybody who some point doesn't WanNa, put some things off and we struggle with. That's right. In fact if I never. Well every day I use the what is the next action? Mantra right. You know it's it's a flavor of my just get started but it's drilled down to what's the next action I need to take an I mean right now if I didn't do that I wouldn't get stuff done and so. I think it's really honest free to say. We're we're all we all struggle with our own. Self self-defeating nature but you're thriving now. Yeah. Yeah. A but one of the things I wanted to mention actually had to reinvent myself a little bit what's with medical? Because of how much the company has changed but also how much his challenge me and one of the things I, had a hard time. The Guy. I've learned all this from from Grad. Thesis all working hard at it but one of the things I struggle with was that I didn't know what became procrastination and what can became delay. Well, there's so much to do at a startup I mean you're working. After, the these are was over and I actually graduated I'll still working like maybe sixty even eighty hours a week right I mean all you're doing is working working and and even if you weren't working, you're thinking about right that's just the nature of what up is like. This is not a new thing that you know why someone doing this it's like I want to do because this. I really believe in the product I believed in the mission and also loved the work. It was right up my alley and that kind of motivated me but again like. The volume of work and what was happening as sort of grow experience. What I don't know what task became off procrastinating four versus what tasks were delayed because of a legitimate is the best thing yet at that time exactly and so I, to redefine what procrastination and delays in a business setting. Something that I never thought that would happen because I thought I knew from school and impersonal, and this is what it is but it could actually definitely chow especially a startup where the against so much happening. There's too much today sometimes. But then yeah, the question yourself about am I putting this off needlessly or am I putting off this because it's it's a good idea. It's a rational choice. All Things considered yeah and do you have any thoughts on how you do that? Honestly this is something that I tell anyone going to start up. I mean really can apply for anything but I it's really just wanted to one day at a time. That's that's all the only thing you know for sure is there's a tomorrow and tomorrow there's another data battle, right? That's the way Sierra and and and there are times you're not gonNA finish everything or you're just something else to do and the best thing can think about Cape Tomorrow. Let's do it again. Absolutely and I think that's as you said, it's not just for startups. It's all our live. There will be a battle tomorrow. and yeah, we're going to do our best today but it's really an interesting I've had people write to me other academics even Batman battling I want over use that word debating in their own minds were delay stops and procrastination or when they get to an end of the day and they say I just don't have anything left when they're doing what you talked about earlier self deception when it's really like, I, need to stop that's it. I've put it as many good hours as I can. I think there's a lot of wisdom that but that's I. Mean when you get to that point I, think it's fine to yeah exactly and. You. Don't really have a problem with that point other than common humanity that this is part of existence. That this is really exciting for me because I Have, I, told listeners a little bit in the preamble that we met over coffee with a while ago but he sought me out which. He made time you've come up from Toronto to Ottawa for work, and you wanted to just tell me that the work made a difference and that you've made a difference to me in understanding like that's the way all are earning rights and I think that's why I resonate to that. We're vulnerable that we have to be vulnerable to know what we don't know or that we only have a piece of the story and listening to other really powerful that way. So. What's next? Well. I mean I mean just still I guess what's next for me I mean I'm so happy with medical I mean this is a I love the work I do. So basically I mean my job is a senior product manager you're involved in a lot of aspects of the company you're. You're basically a mini CEO of your product and you have to design, build and solution product features and talk to users and. Are being nurses and doctors and clinical administrators and all sorts of things and. which were thesis skills of yours interviewee either. Listening yeah, discerning what the themes are, how you're going to address it as a company. So in some ways, I could say from the optimistic side Yeah your education was perfect background. You're doing at the same time. You could say this is just another thesis you could end up practicing on this couldn't I but there's a there's a real difference in the way you're approaching has. I think the differences are one of the things that. Is a piece of says you're you're kind of isolated in not? But really also professors project as well. But with with the team I mean when I swift medical. Medical was that that Pesky three table service through table START I think you'd better but now it's a full floor office with eighty people. Now, you're thinking about the team. And I, it's like you gotta be very careful with our if you procrastinate. This again, we'll go back to Joel. Anderson. Notion of extended will because now other people are providing motivation for you wouldn't want to let them down where to you're on your own and feeling isolated in your thesis person you felt your affecting was you Articulate so well yeah. You're part of a team and if you're putting things off needless a year dragon everybody down yeah and and don't me wrong. I'm still guilty of putting things off and whether it be progressing delayed that it does happen at the start of especially that start up that's scaling and growing the way we are. Because we are one of the fastest growing sauve startups in. North. America right now. And especially the healthcare sector, which is almost unheard of. But part of the challenges like as we grow people are GonNa Miss Things Burger either intentionally or because you procrastinated in some cases. But yeah. It's like the team is especially the park manager you're involved in basically every team in some capacity. So there's a lot of accountability responsibility that you have to kind of own up to yourself, but also to your other. Colleagues I think that's That's something that's it's so hard to do. It's it's not easy, but it's something that keeps you on your toes a lot more than let's say a pizza. So is a different paradigms and how you think about an operate work it's like one. It's still your individually motivated but there's a whole audience now versus US unit supervisor herself and that's I think that's an important distinction. Now I know that you're. Writing a blog now? Yeah. Maybe you could tell listeners a little bit about it and I also like to know what you're reading now because there was a real turning point for you that one day in the library when you started to read and then you realized you hadn't been reading and then you started reading things that were as you say, psychological things started to feed you in a different way. I wasn't joking I think a lot of good students end up reading things that they're not supposed to be. Air quotes they say this to the because they're supposed to be studying for an exam, but education is more than getting those grades. So what's your blog about and what are you reading now? Yeah. So my blog is about So is called fifty two to fifty essentially it's a I. write a blog post that two, hundred, fifty words or less. Over Week. So I usually write it on Sunday or Monday I spend the week editing and impulsively on the following Sunday. And really right now I just started so I'm like five or six weeks and now and I basically write about a topic. That's kind of like getting my mind for that for that Sunday sometimes and I it's really a practice of writing and expression of with with with a sense of brevity. Guess it's at I. Think you know this so much continental. There's so much. Like there's so much to do and read that sometimes I forget what it's like to. I guess. I'm GONNA put this. Visa. Sick yeah visa sinked and really spend time in thinking about what you right what your point is. Yeah. Exactly I think isn't it Mark Twain that said I'm sorry for the long winter had more time I righteous short exactly I. Think you share that with us that we're talking I. Think it's an admirable quality to try to say what you descend two hundred and fifty words that respect reader. And so people who've met you now keen to checkout fifty, two to v Yes. Sure. Some medium medium. Yeah, and great here's a funny thing like how did not go how? I do in the mornings just like the pieces, right so I take the same mindset i. Purchased and edit my work or or right. It's the same mindset I built from from these days. So. That's something that has original residual carryover. In my life today. That's still kind of because I still wake up four. Am now that's that's. Our. Four hundred four still the middle of the night. Yeah. So so I pushed it back but again, the same, the same theme is still there you know that that is my prime and go time and part of that is also. Working out it's also writing his blog. So that's something that I hope to. Publish volume one after a year, and then we'll do volume later. So. ENJOYING IT guide? You've been putting me in your direction. So as you're writing you, you've been reading reading. So I'm bad at remembering titles. So I do apologize but is a design book. It talks about the apple design. Process. On how Apple Builds and designs software and hardware solutions the interesting approach on how the I guess how they approach on the problem of the consumer and how it solved and but more importantly I think it's well and it's really from my work. It's like how do you present a solution to your internal stakeholders that a company? and. How do you know that this is the right way to do it, and there's some interesting stories about Steve, jobs and and the author of who who's offer engineer essentially, and he was trying to like present like he worked on things like the keyboard, the the actual iphone ipad keyboard, and is great stories about how he would present Steve Jobs and what he's learned from that. Would say Nokia basically. But I'm a famous one where you know he had the ipaq keyboarding two different size of the keyboard. So the user can. Can Switch and. He had he presents the Steve He's like he goes to and then Steve Actually asked them. So, we know what we need one right and to him he didn't even think about which would have to pick his credit to prototypes and what I learned from that that particular lessons about idea design. So when you present a solution or problem I try not to present option anymore. I've I've tried to now streamline insists that this is what I believe in and it's Ok from wrong. It's being vulnerable again rated Galvano, but I really liked even just make that commitment. You can see this in the psychological that you choose to an existential notion of a deep commitment to self. What do? What do I believe? Yeah that's so powerful. In fact, a lot of people that struggle with procrastination is because they don't have that deep commitment to what it is they want to achieve, and sometimes I'll say that students to and. Take this for what it's worth because I don't want people to just run off and do this. But I'll say, maybe you should just stop maybe this isn't for right for you. Now, I think just putting on the table that you make a commitment because then we realize no, no I want this. Sometimes. You say, yeah, I don't want the reason I'm procrastinating on is the procrastination is a symptom of I'm not committed to this write. Another book looking at that Beautiful Sweater Bavin came in. I was admiring you got a new Patagonia. Smart World. It's not smart. What what did they call that the better better sweat. Sweater yet, and I said I'm such a Patagonia Fan and I don't know if you've gone. See the founder has a book. Great Yeah let my people surf, right? Yes. That's where think it's a good to. Convict as we were both talking about what a great company is in terms of its. Environmental Commitment and the rest of it but that's another an interesting read because he's such a put together such an interesting company. Avenue it's been a pleasure to talk today. Yes. Same here and thanks for having. Appreciate it. Thank you. Back. With. Main thing. As. Good. A be the day. Things, away. The. Win. Fire. Big Out scenes. Through. A. Day. Food. Turn. Back. Win. Snow.

supervisor Western University Joel Anderson Charles Duke Graduate School Bavin Patty Ottawa apple starbucks Senate Western Ontario Bavin Bavin Bhavan tim A. Coffee Grad school London Bobbins
S3 Epilogue: Got a Story to Tell

Slow Burn

49:32 min | 10 months ago

S3 Epilogue: Got a Story to Tell

"Hi I'm chow to today. I'm giving you a preview. The sleep plus bonus episodes. We've been making all season for slow-burn in each episode. I tried with host Joel Anderson and producer Chris Johnson about the making of the series and we dig more into some of the stories in themes that they can cover in the main episodes. Then we get to hear extended interviews with some of the significant players from time people who really new to pocket biggie. Who experience everything in real time and provide more insight and background to the story including one of two parks personnel attorneys some of the journalists who interviewed to Buchan biggie during their feud and others? There's who became experts on the two rappers and the whole culture and scene of the time. If you're a fan of the season of slow-burn you'll really enjoy going more in depth with these bonus episodes and you should know that the series would not be possible without the support of sleepless members. So sign up today into your support. It's only thirty five dollars for the first year. And you won't hear any ads on any sleep. PODCAST outkast. You can sign up now at DOT com slash slow-burn. Okay here's a preview. This first clip comes from our first bonus episode. Where we we get to hear some background on Joel and Christopher themselves and we get to hear from Sean Holly and attorney to the stars who once represented to park and you got to see fun and personal side to the rapper? Yeah okay so I want to introduce you guys a little bit. Can you talk a little bit more about your background. We've worked on. Yeah well I am originally from Houston Texas. I went to college at Texas Christian University. Go frogs and have worked all around. my background is mostly in print or online so associated Associated Press Shreveport Times Tampa Bay Times Atlanta Journal Constitution Tampa Bay Times again. Then I moved to New York in two thousand thirteen to work with buzzfeed. And that's kind of where you know. A lot of things really took off for me I was sort of a national news. Correspondent cover like Ferguson and Baltimore Uprising. Lot of that stuff there and that just sounds like a lot of work that got a lot of attention I was like. Yeah like my career was built on my tragedy in some ways Really thoughtful about the the work I do and like not just know that like this could have been anybody. Anybody could have got assigned to those stories. I just happen to gotten anyway after that. I got burnt out and decided I wanted to cover college football for two years And then I'm sleigh. Came to me with this. Opportunity can say something right quick or is this dude is being ridiculously humble trumble which is in key it was consistent. But you know I remember when I was looking into taking this position and working with you and of course did my background research tonight. Found the story that you did. We talked about it on the phone. You story about Jabbar During Katrina right so tragedy but the way that you told. That story told me everything I needed to know about. Like my trust for you handling this kind of a story right so handling the story that we're working on now that it wasn't going to be a sensational project. And and certainly the editors have control over that but the host also in my experience anyway does have a lot of this a lot of states say as he or she should in driving the direction and the voice and the tone tone and the way that you treated the experience of that black man in the middle of this like legal and whether or not even really weather but like this chaos told me a lot of this stuff I needed to know so Christmas Must Yukon and I'm GonNa wait for him to say what his background is before. That's right all right okay. Well let's hear it goes for yes so I was born and raised in and out of Washington. DC BETWEEN DC and Montgomery County I grew up on Gogo and DC PUNK and eighty s rb and soul music. My Mother's fried chicken. I mean that's what that's what raised as me and I went to rutgers university and then I went onto Grad school. I'm kind of in my previous life academic impeached dropout. That kind of stuff off dropped out and went to work for. NPR my first media GIG was at NPR in DC. I was a producer kind of your like grunt producer at morning addition. I did that and then went out to. NPR WEST IN LA started a couple of shows out there today and then News and notes which was NPR's black show Yeah pro I did that. For a while and decided to go freelance Lance in Southeast Asia for a little while and live there and bounced around and then came back to the states and conceived and wrote this podcast asked called one hundred to one the crack legacy which was looking at some of the more contemporary roots of police violence in black communities anti black violence in black communities there lots of explanations donations for but we were looking at the war on drugs. It's kind of like catalyst for a lot of this. Eighty s war on drugs did that and then Hop WNYC was there for a little bit and did a co hosted. A podcast called the real news about the late rapper prodigy half of the legendary Bob deep and his lifelong struggle was sickle cell. Anemia Jamia. I did that with now. Slates Mary Harris Right bringing the team back and exactly at the getting the band back together and now I'm here first of all I'd heard the realness and and so when we go talk to people about with this podcast is and like who we are. Hate to say. A lot of people are not hurt. Asleep we don't have any credibility ability necessarily with certain people in certain communities. You know what I mean insisted. Because they haven't heard is it on who we are and I'm not like a hip hop head like I'm not a dude who's done done music journalism before like you know what I mean like so talking with Christopher I was like Yo like that is the person I need to like. If we're going to do this we need to have. Somebody has like Bonafides in this game and like the real news. Is that like it was like that game changing like a project and I was like you'll like you may not think I know with the hill. I'm talking about but he doesn't even know I was like Yo. Christopher knows exactly what he's done and and this is like I just trusted him implicitly judgment in so slate plus episode elephants. Are you trying to sell the show. How do you explain the show to them? Then it depends But also to start with some of the questions that people raise especially people who have told the story a lot and people who both have told the story a lot and they told it because they were close to one or both of the subjects of the podcast pocket or Biggie and so for them they're there are two challenges one is that they told the story a lot and they have a deep kind of professional understanding of these guys like they understand their impact on the world but they also had personal relationships with them right and maybe a third thing. which is that? If you're black in America you're also thinking about what it means to have have two black men killed at very young ages and whether they're celebrities or not that's just the thing that we live with them in. America lives with that but by like people process that in a very kind of immediate way and so all that kind of triple thing for a lot of people that are just like. I don't WanNa go there anymore. Like I've been going there for twenty some odd years and so so the way that we try to sell it is honestly again. It depends on the source. Part of it is saying we are not interested in reinvestigating their deaths. We're certainly interested in that story but our goal is not just to sit around and kind of go through an autopsy and talk about you know the kind of forensics around around how they died and are they still are they actually dead and that kind of stuff. It's promising people that we are going to go into their lives and talk about the role that they played in American culture and the role that they played as fathers as husbands as artists. You know what I mean as dudes in the community and as complicated waited problematic sometimes men and black men. Because it's true it. We're not just doing it to sell it. That's what we are interested in those kinds of things in the because especially with the life of to Park Doc. That's complicated enough. Like he did so much touched so much and caused so much in his very short live. There's a lot the drama there. Just in his living setting aside how he died and for a Lotta people that seems to open them up and it also gives them a sense of Trust in us that at least you're thinking the right way you're thinking about it in a different way. Yeah they're not corpses to us. You know what I mean. We're trying to make the three dimensional. Where he's like they've been sort of reduced like these? Two Dimensional two PAC biggie that they represent like this one singular moment in American history. And that's it unlike we're trying to get a little bit beyond that talk to the people whose lives they touched talk about how they touch their lives and all of our lives and all the music even listen to today like the impact. They've had on that right because there is that That we have to explore. It's like yeah like there are books documentaries TV miniseries that are dedicated exclusively just is to their deaths and like that just seems boring to me you know what I mean like this background has been heavily trod and again. We're not running from that. That is going to be a piece of the podcast. But that's not it and you know. Hopefully by the time we get to it you will have been so interested in everything else that you'll be like okay. We'll see how this ties and everything else but like that is. It's not like that was not why we wanted to do this. And that is not the only story we hope to tell her. Sleep is important every day of the year but around the holidays. Today's can get even harder to find for those precious hours. Parties with friends and family. Endless shopping lists long flights. When you finally get into bed you want to make sure you can can fall asleep and stay asleep? 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Every week did started com dot com slash slow-burn. That's calmed dot com slash slow-burn. My name is Shawn Holly. I'm a partner at Kinsella Weitzman ISER COMP and Al Desert which is an entertainment litigation and business his litigation firm in Santa Monica. I worked to Johnny Cochran Office for a long time. I was part of the Oj Simpson defense team. And I started out my career as a a Los Angeles County public defender and I consider myself a public defender at heart at this point. You know two thousand nineteen you have sort of the distance to be like well. There is this perception of a one man crime band or whatever but at the time when you get a call from a national legal coordinator and I'm assuming you've heard of two-pack just via movies music. Whatever like what we sort of your perception of him before you'd even had a chance to meet him? Then you get this call. I don't know that I had any perception of him in particular. I don't think that I thought he was bad home. Notwithstanding the fact that you know he was coming to me through someone who obviously was shepherding out a whole bunch of cases he had. I don't think that that caused me data. You know. Make any presumptions about him. But I'm pretty sure that I'd met him shortly. After that whatever I would have thought would have immediately gone out the window because has there was like no more amazing brilliant charming fabulous person than he. So whatever you might have thought it now. If it was bad you wouldn't think that anymore while what can you can you tell me What you remember that? That first meeting is sort of the circumstances of into did he come to your office. So did you go to meet him or how did that work. He came to the office. He was one of these people who you know almost as light glowing. They're so special. You Know Eh and was just incredibly charming and you know a little flirtatious. which wasn't about thing either? Yeah but I think that we just kind of went through the cases. I think that there were probably a couple that were pending at that time that I was going to be dealing with and you know it's so crazy when I think about that time because it's so different now my practice when I'm representing celebrities. There has to be like an entire plan Dan as to how to get in and out of wherever you're going I mean there's just so this was you know before. TMZ or any of that. So I mean I could like meet him at the place place where his deposition was going to be taken which might be some office in Century City right outside the office building like the Grassy area. You know what I mean like. It's just crazy when I think about that because that could never in a million years happen now I remember one occasion because he would always be late and so finally on this one on occasion. I'm like I'm not getting there on time. Because I'm sick of him. Being laid and me waning and me said monitoring him every time this happens and then of course that was the time that he was on-time because he was showing me that he could be on time and then I was late so I guess the fact we were not really in sync so like was Z.. Alone when when you admit really now he would just he would just feel alone which is part of what's so crazy about it like I said that just could not happen now at. Aw ever it doesn't even sound like him either right because having talked to people to sound like they were always dudes around right whenever he McKay moved but on the occasion to around him he came he would just come over by himself. Yeah I mean maybe a dude like you know dropped him off somewhere and picked him up somewhere but where he would be meeting me he would be like rolling up alone just walking up crazy. Yeah scrape really what I found with to park. And then later I represented Lindsay Lohan. For many years I saw similar thing in representing both of them. which is that there would be a perception out in the world that with respect both of these people that they are somehow bad actors but they have a lot of money so I think that they both in in many respects were targets for you know I was GonNa say Predators and I could say that but I'll be a little kinder people knew who thought that you know? This is kind of a perfect perfect opportunity to get something here. Because everybody's GonNa presume that this person to walk or Lindsey did whatever it is. I'm alleging and because these people have a lot of money they'll be willing to write a check to make it all go away. We started this project. I never anticipated the two-pack would be analogous to Lindsay Z.. Lo Han but this episode of slow burn is sponsored by Saks underwear. I'm sure you heard folks I tell you that. It's important to invest in quality items quality winter coats that lasts for years quality running shoes. 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We've worked with saks acts underwear on this great limited time deal just for you right now. You can save ten percent and get free shipping on a pair sex just by going to the special URL saks underwear dot com slash. slow-burn get your gifts now with this great offer go to S. A. X. X. underwear underwear dot com slash slow-burn that sex with two X.'s. Remember that sex underwear dot com slash slow-burn in this next clip comes from our thoroughness episode. which has an interview with the hip hop journalist? Mattie see who really got to no biggie. After featuring him and his unsigned hype column in the source he gets into the dynamic between big into Bach and the role that hip hop media played in their feud so three. This is a pretty big one We start off where we left off at quad studios and to pocketing shot and the other side big. He's been making music. He's been getting some hype it gets linked up with puffy after he releases a song called who Sharjah so. There's a lot of ambiguity about whether the song was aimed at to pucker. Not So do we know what people at the time. We're thinking about that song. Well it's important to remember that the beat for who shot your appeared on Mary. J Blige's Albacore all my life. which is a album that was released for the quad shooting and the beat appears on the song called the K.? Murray elude in. It's like a twenty two second clip. A rapper named Keith. Murray just wrapping over that beep for who shot right and so now she mirror is the producer in you. Hear Him in this episode. Talk about making that beat. So Oh he's the one that knows that that beat was made well before the quad shooting. And I you know. PUFF WANNA Keith. Murray to do a longer song over that didn't it didn't work out isn't mentioned into podcast And then they tried to bring in Elko Jay who was supposed to do something with the beat puffed in like that in so they said hey what. Let's let's give it a biggie. Biggie took it put out the song that we know now is shocked. This is all done before the quad shooting. The problem was is that got released. A few months later After the shooting is a b side to big POPPA and so like it's hard to argue that the song was made with two pocket mine but it's understandable. If you think the timing of the release was made with him in my to like if you WANNA be uncharitable of say. They released it as a way to talk to. You could argue that but the song was not made aid to Pakistan mine and so if you were to park you probably would've thought it was about. It makes sense right like hey. I'm done these guys when the shot me in other taunting me with this song among the general thought around the music industry was at it was either extraordinarily flagrant it. Best or insensitive at worst could happen aimed at anybody buddy else. Nah I mean. It's just reporting remember. Christopher knows Kasese speak toughly in this culture man shooting people in songs is a staple of hip hop. You know what I mean like. It's not it's not unusual to like talk about hypothetical violence against random assailants and enemies and haters. Here's or whatever you know what I mean. So I think it's just the timing of it and because the title seems like specifically tailored to what happened to to puck because it was mystery rounded the theoretically right they like to do you know but Nah that's just a part of course in hip-hop talking about shooting people man you know Yeah and it's interesting. This only just occurred to me but Well let me just. We just wonder allow about whether or not in two pox music to pox version of HIP hop. He's literal in a way. That biggie isn't necessarily literal. Of course there are songs that are autobiographical and there's autobiographical elements of biggies music. But part of the artistry that is in biggies music is not being quite as sort of a literal and blunt in his language as a to pox. Music is and I say that really not knowing box music They may not be true. But what I know of two pox music and it's in fact lake. Take you know one of the things. I think he's known for is is being very direct. Yeah not the two-pack didn't get that you know what hip hop was and that. There's all kinds of versions of hip hop along the spectrum of very literal to extremely abstract. But when you're in the kind of vulnerable position that he's in and he's already has already has his reasons to suspect that these guys might have become for him. It's both easy for him to imagine that this might have been directed to him and also for this to feed his paranoia or his kind of confusion infusion or whatever you WANNA call it around that time because it's like just abstract enough for him to just panic basically anticipate and sort of worry. Yeah we talked about as paranoia. I yeah exactly. Yeah Matty See Matteo Kappa Longo Aka matty. AC join up with the guys at the source and eventually started writing. This unsigned hype column which became really like a kind of This this beautiful portal for a lot of artists who were trying to get on and get noticed in a art form form that was rapidly on the rise and it was becoming increasingly difficult to get noticed and so matty and his colleagues had found a way to bring attention to artists. who were still? I think represented an element of hip hop that. They still wanted to to shine some light on. which was there are still artists out there who want the same shot that the other artists who are now big artists got when they were little artists goes down to still keep that part of hip hop fresh which is unsigned unsigned hype and You know unsigned hype. became sort of that portal for artists like eminem towards the end of the nineties for the Amax for for this group Call poetical profits which became mob deep and also for for Becky and cannabis and cannabis cannot bus right and severe from Hobo junction. And I mean like pre Internet. These magazines were basically like music. News and gossip would spread nation nation wide. Then yeah yeah I mean the sources interesting to me for Wolfer lots of reasons. I had a subscription To the source because it was really wasn't doesn't nothing like it. Oh folks like me love to say things like this It's hard to remember and imagine a time before we had google the Internet. You all these kinds of things but in but real talk. It's kind of true like and not only that but before hip hop was so big that it had like all of these different kinds of magazines is in media covering it they were fanzines as a source writer that we spoke to can a Mayo reminded us. They're all these fanzines at the time but like a a a a journalistic outlet that would treat hip hop like a genuine music and cultural form and really take on not just talking about the artists assists in the music but the issues around them and whatnot and the source did that This is the first wave of hip hop writers coming through. And you know it's interesting testing Joel like several people have said to us like your Kevin Powell's and Mattie see in other folks have and Cuna Mayo also have all mentioned like you know there were the first wave of artists to get on and then as hip journalism really became a thing like writer. Writers come on board and not everyone else out the box like people who really. Wow now you know. We're going to journalism schools. And like I won't say real writers but people just a different kind of caliber of command of the language culture. So Yeah Yeah No. I mean growing up those riders. Were I mean. Dream Hampton to somebody whose name I've known for you know twenty five thirty years of my life. You know what I mean. That's a name and is well known to me is many rappers from the nineties or bones malone like that was a guy like really looked up to as a kid and you know talking about like the influence of those magazines ahead. Nothing about five like I remember when I got five at my house and I wanNA say Rosie Perez was on the cover. I don't know if this was the pilot episode persona something like that and it just looked like it looked unlike any magazine that ever help in my hands before. Just the care in the journalism isn't that they apply to artists that I cared about that. I've never seen anywhere else out. Man Like this is one feature. That was invited. It was called twenty questions in a very smart brothers. They called Vibes Twenty questions. The first black twitter right like it'd be like why was such such seen it. The club scene at the tunnel would so and so you know that kind of stuff you know it was just like there was no way to satiate curiosity about your favorite artists than like I knew nothing about the rappers Black celebrities that wants to know like maybe ebony might do a feature. Maybe you might learn some tidbit during interview on you'll. MTV wraps but there was just no other way and vibe and the source would like the first outlet. SORTA gave us a peek behind the curtain. So that we could see what these artists were doing back there. So you sweat pants on for the day. But you're sick of microwave leftovers. A Rama noodles are frozen pizza. 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Would you download the door dash APP and enter Promo Code. slow-burn that five dollars off your first order when you download the door dash APP from the APP store and enter the Promo Code. slow-burn don't forget that's Promo Code slow-burn for five dollars off your first order for door Dash. This is maddy. See I I am Mattie see Matteo Capita Longos my full name former editor at source magazine. The unsigned hype column. Was this column. I wrote that source and after the source I worked in our at loud records it. When did you get a chance to meet him then? Big When I was coincidentally I moved to block away from him like within a couple of months because out of the blue. You know my friend. Chris Wilder whose at sources well just recommended spot because it was like like nearly half what I was paying in the lower east side and and I was like boom. I'll take it. And it was in a Brownstone grant and gates which is about two blocks away from pigs house and so few days after that was just walking down the street we ran into each other. You know what I mean you big humana or boom L. Rolls on up we went and hung out and then like like pretty much every day after that I would see him on the way to the train. He's blocked was on the way to the train station so almost every day on the way to the train on the way home we bump heads. Let's Oh wow. He seems like a sweetheart he was like the black. Yeah it was really an amazing sight to see you know. Here's this big dogs can you. You know L.. Look into on the corner like you would think he. He scares people off the block. When in fact you see so many people get off the subway and walk via like they all these girls like like you know he's got this personal thing with each one of them and you're like wow he just one of those people that just had that a couple of little lines of small talk that you know makes you remember him in just like you know a charisma? He was a black all-star basically definitely man. He was the mayor of the block. Mary Mary Saint James for sure. So you hadn't written the unsigned hype column by this Point Right. I don't think it was published yet but I probably had written. He was actually she pretty pissed off because I had a line in article that said his ROMs are fatter than he is and so he. He's picking a beef with me actually for that line. Oh what did he say. We like to say that man you'll recall fad. so you write on sign hype column comes is out in like you told the story many times but maybe listeners heard it but You get a call from puffy uptown. Is that right. Yeah that's right. That's right so the article. I'm not sure how to even come out yet. But I'd written it and I got a call from him and I knew exactly why because I also was the news editor and I also did. Did something for radio called the weekly word where I wrote like little blurbs for radio stations nationwide to kind of announce a little news items and one of the news items I had just put out was. MCA signed a fifty million dollar deal with uptown records and this was humongous and even though uptown was mostly arm be we knew. Puff was their father and see he was a rap hip-hop head and there was hope you know I know that some big dollars might get thrown at hip hop you know and so that was that was in the back of my head. I must mention and I knew that was that was why he called. Like you know what I mean. You like Yo what's up. We got some money like y'all got some shit like I was like. Yeah come on up. So you wouldn't have met him went to his office tape. Yup was that like first of all I wasn't leading to his office and it was. It was important. Actually that was at the doors rest in peace. Not Letting me in. Then finally he came back Mattia. Letterman is so he came and went back there and Mesa was is in the office eating Sushi. I'll never forget that too. And I played the demo and again my recollection immediately after plan. It is him asking me about how we looks so good sign you know what I mean. It was excited like pen. Everybody knew he was the fashion guy. That's what puff did. He took an artist and he put the right outfit on him. And you know the style so he wanted to know what he was working with. And I'm not really sure how to answer. I didn't bring a photo. I like to not have the photo when I listened to Demos. I'll always turn it over. I don't WanNa see a photo. I just want to hear it so I you know I wanted him to have the same size played he just. He's gotTa Know Oh how he looked he keeps pressing me. I like the fat fat fat boys fat or heavy fat. I mean in between maybe trying to explain. This is the conversation that we're having friendly's is joking we see showed up in big couple of days later and bank did Doodoo and finally we have a clip from our seventh bonus episode which features an interview with Cheo Coker who interviewed biggie the night before he died and and later wrote a biography on him he talks about what he thinks was in the future for both of the rappers. So there's a sense that in hindsight puffy and biggies trip to the West Coast was probably Liam mistake like you said it was about six months after pogs death so had things die down by then or was anything happening in kind of the so-called east versus West a feud with so at this point to pack is dead obviously should was sent to jail for violating his parole for participating in the Casino. beatdown of Orlando Anderson like it violated the terms of his parole for an early assault charge. So two packs dead sug- Joe Remembered dre left death row uh-huh snoop is just now you know a few months after having been found not guilty on a murder charge So in that way whatever is left of death row isn't much so it'd be understandable if puffy and biggie looked at that and said hey things are cool now things seem to be moving towards like peace in resolution and there were even these events Vince that called for an end to violence around that time it was called Christopher knows the hip hop day for tone mint was organized in New York by the Nation of Islam. This is like a few days maybe a couple of weeks after two pot dies then even a few months later snoop and puffy go onto Steve Harvey show to basically hug it out and say hey where together. There's no beef right but Nashi myrick makes this point and it doesn't come up podcast but like nobody had really check check to see if the beef was over. You know what I mean like. Nobody like. It's still a not a lot of time. Had passed before Biggie and Puffy on this Promo tour of California and I'd like what we would say back home as they didn't really get that bitch a chance to breathe. Sounds like you got to let the bishops say they go right back out into the middle of this this the shit they have a really tested the waters of people still pissed at them or not. Yeah that's what it seems like. Yeah and and one of the things that we've heard from Reggie right made at this point he was ahead of death. Row Security Back in the day he said that you know out of respect and also as a matter of course and to just stay save. You've before you go into someone else's town as crew you call ahead as a kind of a show of respect you call them up and let them know listen. I'M GONNA be rolling around in your town just so you know and everything's things chill and whenever we get up I don't know I can't say I don't know of Puffy made that call or not but it's just a yet another kind of I hope that they took that precaution but I don't know if they did. You know so I mean this will probably come up later in the podcast but there are theories allegations rumors that puffy head occasionally enlisted. CRIPS security is like street security in L. A.. So like he could have made it okay with them right but that is definitely did not make it okay with the my pot route. If you're rolling with southside crips yeah. Yeah and then releases the song going back Kelly on his album. So how did that sound come to be. Seems a little bit surprising tally anthem. Yeah I mean I have a couple of thoughts about going back to Cali which probably won't surprise you. Yeah so so first of all enjoy you can check my facts on this but we spoke with the legendary producer easy moby Dj Jay our launch party ago. But he because he'd worked with both artists and tons of other artists. He'd worked with both to pocket. And biggie it had a lot of affection for both of them creators. His young men. He wanted to make a song that was like. Let's let's squash this. Let's bring the host together. Let's make a sound that invokes this kind of style that had become popular at least out of the death row camp and this is like when we talk about this a little bit in the in the podcast this song from the funk group Zap. Yeah right more bounce to the ounce and that kind of song was like an anthem for those west coast heads the way love is the message by MSF. Be I think the group has called Was For us on the East Coast at least in New York right. So he's like Lomana invoked that west coast. Oh Soundman and make this be in a McGee. Big And I'm GonNa let him do something with it and if I remember the story right big kind of makes the song much fascinating easy moby had expected. Yeah and he's like Oh shit most like Oh shit. I hope that big didn't mix and tag is the way. Yeah because he didn't get the fact check Quality control as it turns out that it's not it's like a it's a it's a love letter. Yes sort of a show of affection but you know I have another thought. This is identical sort of Trivia of hip hop. Yeah ten years earlier this idea of going back to Cali. There was another hip hop beef. That was going on ten years earlier in rap and it becomes a defining beef and rap music and this is between. Ll Ll cool. J. and Kumo d from the treacherous three the claim was in some ways. It was also another kind of at one. Point was a one-way beef and then L L L. L. A.. Sit Down through the way big was like okay right so Kumo de lashes out at local J.. With how you like me now. His claim is that L. O.. COOL JJ Dolan. His Style and he was disrespecting the like the elder statesman of hip hop and all that kind of stuff so L. J. Fires back and he fires back with the song. Call Jack The ripper and Jack The ripper was the B side to a single that L had put out ten years before this version of going back to Kelly called going back to Cali uh-huh so this is the second time that a song going back to Cali becomes part of an expanded be hip hop music is funny because I remember remember when the song came out. The biggie song came out and I was like. He's invoking Elton I wasn't sort of thoughtful enough to be like he's also invoking that beef which he may or may not have been doing what it is interesting that like just a decade earlier in this song was also sort of part of this. Yeah had been raging. That's interesting not that long. I mean ten years. It's not that long. It's a long time in hip hop right. A career can be over is true years right. I'm sure just US talking about this. There are people that will probably totally unaware L. Cruiser had going back to Cali. Yeah Song you know what I mean I mean at the time it sounded like some groundbreaking shit. Because you can hear the Rick Rubin all over you know what I mean. Yeah but like to. I mean ten years later twenty years later thirty years later probably have no idea. Yeah yeah it is a very different local Jay style very mellow yes. There's a departure from the L.. At least we grew up. That's true because it's actually okay. I love bigger and differ. Hello my name is shale. Who'd Ari Coker? I was the show runner executive producer. Sern creator of Marvel's Luke Cage. But before that I cut my teeth is a hip hop journalist. I used to write for the bomb. Hip Hop magazine. Rampages is vibe the source double xl and a lot of other publications. So when you first met him you talk about meeting him at these three different points in your life in his life release and so like that first time on the stoop on Saint James. Do you mind painting a picture for who he was and what that was like the meeting him for the first time it was funny. Okay so car drop me drops me off right on Saint James and big. Is You know on a stoop and he literally is like just kind of holding court. He's kind of challenge. You know and we end up talking and were on Saint James and if you look up the street you see Fulton Street you look the other way is another street. Every other car that was passing on Fulton was playing a different track. Ready to die. I I mean you would think it was like a like a big theme park. It was. It was crazy because that's how much he was in. The zeitgeist speak of what was happening happening. That's where that story came from military interview. Trifling Larceny come up to him and try to borrow a gun so so that they can rob somebody and then and he says he doesn't know where it is and soon as as soon as they leave is I know exactly what the gun at nears. This whole thing about how it's like. He's trying to get these kids from around the way to leave with him as part of his answer us because now that he's about to tour and see the world he's trying to get them out of the craziness of Brooklyn. He was charismatic. I mean he was cool. He was funny he was irreverent. He was just as colorful as the riper whose tape hours of Szeswith. And he was proud of the fact that he grew up in Brooklyn. And so when you went to visit him and you would go to Saint Ain't James. He's right there you know it's like I'm not changing for Shit. was his mentality at the time given all of that like puffy obviously had different instincts for him so like what do you think that partnership like what sort of influence if any did puffy have over big in that way he loved. Puff puff was responsible. Awesome changing his life. Puff was was responsible for telling him to rhyme about selling drugs. Instead of actually selling drugs improving him that it could be more lucrative to write about it the next live it so he always credited puff of that but yet there was always a certain kind of disconnect. I mean like from the standpoint of big big all day could do battle rocks and didn't necessarily WANNA do big Papa didn't necessarily want juicy be his first single I mean big he probably would've preferred machine gun funk I mean because his style that time was really more timberland boots and Carl Hart and kind of Dark Street Corner Type Shit as opposed to do you know Glossy Limited look good club you know wearing up sway leather jacket kind of big poppa video things puffy really understood his expertise taste was giving rhythm and blues hip hop grit because Puffy didn't invent the RB HIP hop blend. Can't I mean you'd have to really start talking about like Ron G and talk about other people with those early mix tapes that were really the first kind of blend them. But puff realize. Wait a minute if I take this formula I refine it and I kind of creep this vibe or this feeling that we're going to call hip hop soul. I can sell more records. Because ultimately women are are the consumers that are actually buying records as opposed to their male counterparts arts who disliked listening to records on the radio so then when it comes to his records and it comes to his first singles. He's like how do I packaged big. In a way that makes them appealing to women makes them appealing to radio and doesn't necessarily cut a street credibility but then save hardcore street records for or the B sides and for the album itself and that ultimately became you know the deal that he and big mate so that everybody it was happy. Is that like if you give me big. POPPA if you give me juicy if you give me the single that I can sell the radio you can always have the B. side. You can go as Gangsta in as hard as as you want. And that's how you get a B side life. Who Shot You you know? That's how you get the Biggie. That would show up on mix tapes like some of the Best Biggie. Smalls records aren't official releases. Its those mix tape cameos did that. He would make you know like a real Nigga do things on when he's rhyming over overall the death row records records the song and had big lived long enough for things kind of accelerate and big had the opportunity to do say what Gucci Mane Or. What Little Wayne name has done with their mix tapes where they have a whole different phenomena a whole different way of expressing themselves that nothing to do with their quote Unquote Fisher releases? I mean big big would've taken to that like a fish to water because he was so prolific. Yeah for people that like only remember him through you know top forty hits. It's that sort of thing. Can you explain to people what made him so good and what made him so so much of a standout relatives peers. And even I guess you know still hunger go today. Part of the way to differentiate big into pockets. Talk about what they did differently To Park was blue artist I mean he would just basically lead cut open his veins and bleed on the track he had this way of encapsulating the pain and the soul of what what was happening in the street and even when he was telling somebody else's story but he would kind of personify it and park was a so quick whereas Biggie was more like jazz artists like a bebop artists. I mean yes I mean. Charlie Parker at times played the blues but his approach was lyrically more intricate in terms of of his rhyme patterns the way that the biggie could embody track the way that historic telling style was different. When you look at how? How big could change his style? Basically using his version appears K.. And then do you know bone thugs notorious stock and then basically use their style to to rhyme and then at the same time also have his own narrative style and then also have his own freestyle style. The thing that was interesting about big was not only was he versatile rhythmically. Not only could he basically change his style to match. Whatever beat was happening? There was a clarity to his vocals. There was a clarity to the way that he rhymed. It was almost like you could see subtitles when big arrives. And then he would turn it on and off so for example like with a gangster narrative like somebody's gotTa die that's incredibly vessel but then again like you know I got a story to tell us. Also incredibly visceral Israel the way they brakes store down the way that he structures his story. I mean like I constantly steal from big screenwriter just in terms of thinking have different perspectives to intervene. I still can't call them the best and the only reason I still say rock has better is because big set rocket was better but he's definitely top three top for hands down the without always described it as that black. Christopher Wallace was too big what Peter Parker was a spiderman. And Essentially Peter Parker's main fear is an OP. Maze GonNa find out that Spiderman and Christopher Wallace's Wallace's biggest fear was that his mom was gonna find out that he was biggie. Smalls not the rapper. But the kid selling drugs and the kid that was you know basically we doing wrong So to speak and it was he was costly trying to balance the these two different personas so the thing was was that he was is always kind of these contradictions. But the biggie that I talked to when we're in his hotel room we're waiting to see him appear on soul train awards so he's back in this chair. It's me Greg Young and big and big S.'s. Room Service Pizza. Lucky a plea a big PACI. He had the the pizza like lean back. It was balanced on his stomach. And so he's Kinda eating the pizza at the same time that we're talking and he gets on the awards and watching it with him. The Booze Warrant really very loud. You can really tell what they're saying. It didn't really seem like it was any big deal of the time. And he was talking about about how he wanted to essentially buy a house in Atlanta and he was talking about how he wanted to give away at her wedding and he wanted to see. CJ graduate from high school all in all these different things that he said wasn't going to happen if he was out there while in in what he was basically describing was that he realized that he could have a rap persona but that he could also live a different life. That had nothing to do with Iraq persona I mean essentially he kind of wanted to do what. Ti in tiny or doing on their reality. Show where you know. Ti makes records and then at the same time is just got this domestic life with his kids. That's was big dream was he basically wanted to be the Suburban Soccer Dad occasionally made hip hop records. It's something that I constantly think about when I'm around my kids now the life that I'm living his life that biggie smalls dreamed about it had nothing to do you know with being the world's biggest gangster or have these mansions and these women or any of the kind of flashy gangster lifestyle stuff. It was a the different thing. So if you want to hear the rest sign up for sleep. Plus now at slate dot com slash slow-burn that sleep dot com slash slow-burn. Thank you for listening.

producer Christopher Cali Puff Mary Mary Saint James New York Mattie Joel Anderson NPR West Coast DC Smalls Murray Texas Christian University Cheo Coker Washington Southeast Asia Houston
College Football Is in the Bargaining Phase

Slate's Hang Up and Listen

19:48 min | 3 months ago

College Football Is in the Bargaining Phase

"Hey Up listeners. You're about to hear preview of this week's episode. The coronavirus pandemic a challenge for us to do the show and a financially sustainable way, because of that were temporarily changing how we do the hang up and listen podcast every other week. The full episode will be for slate plus members only with just the first segment available to nonmembers if you WANNA. WanNa hear every word of every episode we do. You need to subscribe to sleep plus to only thirty five dollars for the first year and your membership will help assure that we can continue doing. Hang up and listen for a very long time. If you want. Subscribe good asleep, dot com slash, hang up, plus that slate dot com slash hangup plus thanks so much. The follow podcast contains explicit language. Hi I'm Josh Levin Slates National Editor and this is hang up and listen for the week of July Thirteenth Two thousand and twenty on this week show will discuss college football conferences, scaling back their seasons major league soccer, postponing in cancelling games and other sports that are an shall we say be bargaining phase of dealing with the pandemic. We'll also look at the case of Bruce Maxwell the black baseball player who kneel during the national anthem does now out of the Major Leagues And then finally pulled talk to Denver, Nuggets Guard. trae Daniels, who made news last week by sharing a photo of his first meal inside the NBA's quarantine bubble. I am still so far as I can tell here in Washington. DC I'm the author of the Queen and Host slow-burn season for joining me, Stephan fats s author, the books Word Freak, if he's seconds of panic, not yet famous for sharing photos of food, but could happen could depends on what food I decide to share a photo of. That is a very true statement with from Palo. The California slate staff writer host of slow-burn season. Three Joel Anderson Man who? Many food opinions I'm hoping that conversation of trade handles is just like a point-by-point analysis of each item. There was little trae. Yeah, we're gotta go off that plate. The ruge the watermelon chips. Chips are good. I like Stacy's chips. And they were on the play I mean I think the watermelon was looked pretty good, but I mean that looked like some really withered spinach leaves, or whatever the hell that was. We should save this for the show. Yeah, we'll get to that I suppose. The Ivy League last week became the First Division One conference to cancel all fall sports I know Morehouse Tuskegee, football classic, and now know Harvard Yale for the first time since World War Two. How will we endure the power? Schools meanwhile are clinging to their football revenue life preservers, but you can already see the fingers starting to slip the Big Ten and PAC twelve announced they would play games only within their respective conferences, which prompted a University of Colorado linebacker named Carson Jones to tweet corona virus must know the difference between conference and Non Conference Games drop your MIC Carson Jones Joel you've been dubious. All along at college sports especially football. Football or should be played this fall. Are we moving closer to that inevitability a think Josh said it right at the top of the show when he said we're in the bargaining phase, because it's getting harder and harder to understand how they're going to be able to pull this off, or at least it's going to be hard to understand their logic for attempting to try this in this climate, so for instance we talked about how the Big Ten and PAC tin have decided to stick to only conference games this fall, great so consider Nebraska and rutgers are in the same league, and they're scheduled to play in mid October. That's A. A thirteen hundred mile road trip probably know shorter than a two hour flight. How is it safer to play that game? Nebraska vs rutgers as opposed to Nebraska versus central Michigan or Nebraska vs South, Dakota State or Nebraska versus, Cincinnati is you know the games that were lost when the big ten scale back its schedule or the PAC twelve. They're cutting back league games, too, so Arizona State is scheduled to play Washington state at the end of October and having been pullman three times. Let me tell you this few places in this country that are harder to get two or more remote timpee to pullman is according to Google maps about. About twelve hundred miles. It's not some sort of short plane ride, so explain to me again. How does this make sense when you cut out? These non league games and you're still allowing these foot college football teams to basically fly halfway across the country to play each other, and that's mostly because they're figuring it out as they go just like the rest of us here. In America, there's no indication that anyone with any authority in this country knows. What a good safe response to this viruses! That doesn't involve shutting everything down. Can we before we get too far into this? Can we just go back to that tweet because it was? UTAH. Who Just your immediate response? When I think it was, Stephanie sent sent us around. You're like that is one of the all-time. Great tweet was fantastic Lake Carson Johns. I don't know if you have a career, you know in professional football, but the the brevity of it be clarity of the conceptualization corona virus must know the difference between conference a non conference games does just amazing. It's a great. It's fantastic. I mean just perfectly timed not a wasted word exactly because there was another another linebacker. Is Larry Johnson who played for Arizona also had a good tweet, but it was a lot longer NCAA, and universities wants to play during the global pandemic, so they won't lose millions of dollars, but can't slash won't give money I'm not asking for fifty K., but you can't break assault three bands, also a really good sentiment and sort of very pointed at the NCAA, but yeah clarity brevity one for fifty K. by the way to go ahead I mean you might as well. I'm not asking for fifty K., but you can't break us off five hundred. Well actually have A. I'm not sure what the answer is to Joel's question. I mean I have some come speculation about why they're keeping it in house. I mean there's just to keep all the money in. Their small circle is a to push back. You know get by a little more time. Because Conference Games are not generally starting in. The beginning of September, Stephan have you seen any kind of explanations or speculation? Well I think they're too obvious explanations for one is that these games draw fewer founds on campus anyway, so the revenue the gate from these Games for the wonder canceling him, he's. Canceling the revenue for those games from gate concessions etc is going to be lower than conference games and two. They have to pay the non conference schools, a million bucks, or so to travel to Nebraska or Ann Arbor or wherever to play these games, so as a as a revenue proposition ditching the non. Games is a no brainer and I also think that one. Possible explanation that I saw and I. Don't know who to credited to. Isn't there some sense that if they play interleague that they could standardize the protocols that they have a much better chance of getting everybody on the big ten, and read on the same page and close to you know these non conference opponents I mean the problem also is that for the non conference opponents. This is a gigantic revenue hit I. mean those two or three sacrifice games, sacrificial lamb games that schools play are really important to smaller schools revenue for the for the Athletic Department. Yes, definitely drew. Is Trying to preserve their football revenue, no matter what size the school as and Stanford is killing. Eleven sports not to me was shocking because we've we've talked a lot in recent months about college, athletic departments and budgets and cutting sports, but Stanford has won this Directors Cup thing for the last twenty five years, which gives schools points for performance across the entire like menu of college athletics, and it's just like part of the schools brand is being good at these Olympic sports, and we know their explanation was people think that we have limited money, you know we have unlimited resources and money at Stanford and that's not true. I don't know if I if I agree with that. You know basically. If Stanford is doing this then it's hard to see how every school in the country is an going. Adjust start slashing. Stanford is basically just given everyone permission. If you're a booster or a student or a fan of some other school, then they're gonNa tell you we'll stanford. So. We're going to do it. I'm going to push back a little on the weather. This is such a bad thing I mean Josh slate has published, and others have written stories about how a lot of these sports are affirmative action for qualified white students. You know you get on the squash team on a cruise boat and you get to go to Stanford where your academic performance indicators are much lower than. The college admissions scandal sailing. Say and they've got like the schools that compete for this cop host like thirty five to forty sports I think Stanford's thirty three or thirty nine some huge number, Brown your Alma Mater Josh a few ago, announced it was cutting sports unrelated to Covid a review that was started before all this happened. They ended up having to reverse course on a couple of sports after pressure from alumni, but there is an argument to be. Be made that. Maybe this is an opportunity for a genuine reassessment of the mission of universities, even ones that have presumably unlimited resources which they'll saying. You don't WanNa waste a crisis right 'cause now it's worth noting that these athlete it cuts sports. They're brought in. Absolutely. No revenue had very little competition, and most of them are funded off the backs of the major revenue sports. So here at Stanford and I know A. A little bit about this 'cause I'm right up the street. Most of those sports that were cut were nine NC Double A. Sponsored Championship Sports, so for instance like field hockey there, only two other division field hockey teams on the West, coast and none in like you know five to six five or six other sports that were cut so essentially. It was Stanford competing against itself like they just had these this bloated athletic. Athletic, budget and the dislike will not cut right now. It makes it sense right. Why not right now and you know and they're still going to be club sports. They'll still compete the flip side. Is that universities like Stanford can afford to do this? And there's an argument to be made that that school should be sponsoring more non revenue sports because that's more in line with what the mission of a university should be. Kind of. got a little hyper capitalism action over there from Joel Anderson like these sports are non revenue generating. We got gotTA dump them to get rid of. That too, but I mean guess the thing is. Is that if I'm torn on this because we've talked about this over and over again, the United States is pretty much the only country in the world that a taxes athletic programs to the institutions of higher learning, and also I mean as long as they fund these non Revenue Sports. It makes it impossible to spread out the money to the guys that are actually bringing in money to the Athletic Department, and so I'm a little. I'm a little less sympathetic to funding squash teams at the expense of pain for guys like Carson. Jones. Yeah I don't think that those are related though I think the. Yeah, they want you to think they are, but the reality is that that that's not how it works. The reason that we're not paying people is that that universities have chosen to take the billions of dollars in revenue from basketball and football and spend on coaches and buildings and fundraising, so I I wouldn't fall for that trap, but also these universities aren't just their athletic departments like there's no reason that football has to pay for these other sports like. Why couldn't Stanford pay for these sports? Out of out of anything else, it doesn't necessarily makes it doesn't make whoever said that sports had to be revenue generating a university. We fallen into this into this trap of believing that in the last forty years and I think that's dangerous. One know that's fair. That's fair, but what again? What I'm saying though is that it strips away another justification. Ultimately, the longer this goes on the more we strip away the artifice of so-called amateurism. We see that the excuses are essentially. They just don't WanNa. Pay Him, you know. Yeah, well. I think Dole. We can't let them divide us. You know by a Siamese. Know what I don't have to. Tell me about they can't. We can't let them divide the squash players and the football players. Stronger together. Calls, but back to the NCAA and this conference scheduling situation. I think what we've learned. Here is something that we've already knew, but it's reinforced, and that is that the NCAA does nothing that you actually would want to do and everything that you don't want to do like this is a situation where if there was a leader or leadership from the governing body for for college sports, then you know. Know maybe we would have a plan and we would have coordination, and we wouldn't have these conferences. You know being out for themselves and and kind of not having any sort of unified anything, but circumstance like this zero. The is just you know it's only the schools like the NCAA has just serves at the pleasure of students, but like you know the NCAA, actually like comes out and force when. Somebody has a Bagel that they're not. They're not supposed to have then they then they actually are. Enforcing the shed out of everything, so they can only enforce things that don't matter. Is the point well? The the obvious parallel here in the Cova crisis is that the NCAA is the federal government is the White House. Lead up to the states leave it up to the conferences. We don't want to deliver any sort of universal guidelines. Every situation's different. How can the PAC ten and the big ten possibly the Patriot League? How can they possibly operate on August? The twenty. I was a kid. Actually. But. How can we possibly impose some sort of set of standards except as you say Josh now if it comes to? Our Business Provision, Oh and our need to prevent students from deriving any source of income anywhere. Well, then we need to to have a universal message from the university presidents. Give me a break. And I mean the thing is. We've talked a lot about money here and I just want to Kinda circle back around to what has been my overall point for the last few months is that we're talking about a safety issue? The players particularly college football are a majority black workforce that are being forced back to work in the middle of a pandemic while we're not even sure if they should be on campus right now and I you know I read at least two stories one from the University of Texas. One from the University of North Carolina that talked about. About how cleaning staff had become infected with Cova in at least one person at each of the schools had died as a result of catching cove it, and so it's not like not. Is it dangerous for the players to be on campus right now? It's dangerous for anybody else. A student from Penn state died recently who was in State College, not an athlete gear, right? We just cannot we like. We cannot continue to think about this in terms of what man we might miss football or you know. How's this going to affect the bottom line of these college? College Athletic Department because we're also talking about a health crisis and there's nobody like thing. Just you talked about the NCW there's no you know. This is where the NCWA should be able to come in and say hey, guys. We're GONNA. Shut this down for the fall, but college football doesn't have to explain ship to anybody. There's no regulatory agency. No Governing Authority that can bring everyone together, and for some sort of clarity among all of these colleges, and it's I mean it's it's I mean it's morally repugnant I mean to be i? You know to to put. Put these guys at risk just for entertainment just to keep the money going? It's just really disgusting and you know the further we get along with this you just you you. You come to see that there are no guardrails that there's nobody nobody is going to come to save us, but the people that have a financial stake in this and the John Branch in the New York. Times had a good piece that really summarize was a good synopsis of Lot of these issues, and I think the main point that I took away from it that he makes. The big schools are asking how to play instead of why to play and they're gonNa get to the point that they're going to be asked. Why are you doing this? They're just not there now. Though to maybe segue to some professional sports since you tease that in the Intro Josh, they're gonNA find justification in major league soccer in the NBA and the WNBA and the other professional sports leagues that are trying to pull this off, even though those startups have been beset, some of those startups have been beset by some some health problems, too I mean major league soccer been postponing delaying games so. It's back to as it always is. It's back to Carson Jones's tweet. Krona virus actually does not care. If you are, if you're playing a regular season game versus next game versus scrimmage versus a practice and I thank the mls restart is an example of kind of what we're going to be in for and I. Don't know about you guys, but it's felt some me like the restart of sports, and maybe it's because I. Don't follow club soccer in the US as closely as I do other sports, but like stuff is starting like a sign of creeped up on me like baseball is turning in. In like a week and a half like Ben Ba is going to be and I guess a little less than three weeks now like it just feels like I like blinked for a second, and all these sports are coming back and it just feels crazy a little bit year which what's changed I mean actually which is changed since sports stopped and March gotten worse. It's gotten worse in now. We're saying okay with we're still. GonNa. Thug our way through. This was still going to play. Gone worse than sports stopped then it'll get better when sports starts again like clearly that science. The other thing I was thinking is that maybe there's been some CDC guidance that Corona virus will die if a strength coach yells at it. That's what we're in for in the fall. That was a preview of this week's episode of Hang Up and listen to hear the whole thing, sign up for slate plus sleep dot com slash hangup, plus it's only thirty five dollars for the first year in your membership will help sustain our show that slate dot com slash hangup plus thanks very much.

football NCAA Stanford Carson Jones Joel Anderson Stanford Josh Nebraska soccer Athletic Department United States Stephan baseball Arizona NBA Josh Levin Washington California Wan
I Just Binged Cheer

Slate's Hang Up and Listen

1:11:41 hr | 8 months ago

I Just Binged Cheer

"The following podcast contains explicit language. Hi I'm Josh. Levin Slates National Editor and the author of the Queen. This is hang up and listen for the week of February. Eighteenth Two thousand ten twenty this week show we're going to talk about the fallout and the recriminations from the Houston Astros signed stealing scandal. Everybody's mad. Ltv Collarbone Tattoo. We'll also discuss the huge changes that are reshaping the WNBA and assess the best player in college basketball. Oregon's Sabrina UNESCO finally will review the Netflix Docu series cheer it look at the triumphs and the rigors of competitive cheerleading joining me as always from Palo Alto fresh off his triumphant live tour slate staff writer and the host of slow-burn season. Three Joel Anderson. Hey Joel Good Morning I'm triumphant. I do not survive you. Did you not only survived? You triumphed which is implied by triumphant. I'M GONNA get into my thesaurus later in the show but I'm just working one word at a time. The top Stephan is off this week filling in for him in our studio. It's Lindsey Gibbs Lindsey as one of the CO hosts of the burn it all down podcast. The proprietor of the powerplays newsletter. Sexism in sports I Lindsay. Thanks for having me back. We're always happy to have you and big news for the power. Plays a cinematic universe. This week you are bringing the newsletter to the next level. It's time it's time to flip the switch and pull out that subscription model so announcing it and Tuesday's newsletter which should be out shortly and then next week starting this subscriptions and then we'll go to some subscriber only post. Starting in the first week of March I am very excited and equally terrified so we love powerplays and we love your work. Lenzi and people should support this work. It's nobody else's doing the kind of journalism you're doing about women and sports so we're excited to support it and support you and for people that here. This that are hang up listeners should email Lindsay Lindsay. You can give out your email address. The second put hang up in less than or something of that nature and the subject line and Lindsay is going to give away a free subscription to one of you guys nice. Yes so email me Lindsey at L. I N. D. S. A. Y. At Power Plays. Dot News powerplays DOT news. So if you put hang up in the subject line you will be entered. But only if you've already signed up on the free list you have to be on the free list to get the get the paid subscription so make sure if you go to power plays DOT news once again. Powerplays DOT news. That's where you can sign up for the free subscription and even after we go paid there will still be one newsletter per week. That will be for everyone so it won't be A waste of your sign ups. I promise it's a it's fun. It's been great last week. The Houston Astros launched spring training with a string of apologies owner. Jim Crane and players. Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman said they were sorry for the teams dealing scheme. Operation that led to the suspensions and firings of GM Jeff Lanao manager Aj hinch but quite importantly resulted in no penalties being imposed on astros players past or present. Let's listen to Bregman performance of contrition. I'm really sorry about the choices that were made by my team by the Organization and by me I've learned from this and I hope to regain the trust of baseball fans. I hope choices were made enters. The Pantheon with mistakes were made. It's even more passive and construction so the Astros peers and Major League Baseball Were now one over by that apology. Cody bellinger kind of came out. First and came out hottest bellinger's L. A. Dodgers lost the world series of Astra's in two thousand seventeen. He told reporters that. Houston stole the dodgers world series. Ring that everyone in the big leagues lost respect for them. He also talked about the video going around telling his teammates not to rip off his Jersey when he hit a walk off homer in the two thousand seventeen playoffs. That footage has led some to believe that Houston players were wearing buzzers under their shirts. Let's listen to bellinger. I don't know what human hits a walk off home run against all this Chapman to send your team to the world series and one has the thoughts. Say Don't Jersey off but to go in the tunnel change your shirt and then come out in your interview like that. It makes no sense to me makes zero sense to me. Because I know me Gary Sanchez said yesterday. You can rent my shirt off my pants off. I send my team in the world series of rallies Chapman and the night at home you can. Do you know I'm going crazy right. So if we do not see Pantelis bellinger. Then we'll know that he has a hypocrite Carlos Correa of Astra's defended Altuve as saying he didn't WanNa take his shirt off because he had a bad tattoo. I mean this is this is where we're at jaw And we must give credit to Stephan here because he predicted that this is how this is. GonNa play out to giving the players immunity to discuss. The science dealings. Came openly was GonNa Backfire on the Commissioner explanation for why no players got suspended. This Ranford says and I think it's true is that a memo was sent out explaining that if any team was caught stealing signs than the manager and general manager would be held responsible as they were lou now and a hinge got suspended and then fired and reporting by Jeff. Passan suggests that Astros management did not pass along the message in that memo to the players and so the thinking is if any astros players got suspended. Then there's no way I would hold up in a grievance and so in that case you would just be suspending players with the knowledge that it wouldn't hold up but to send a signal and so the question than as is worth it to do that justice signal even if in actual fact. Nobody would miss any playing time. I'm actually not sure what else the commissioner could have done just because of the players union. The suspensions probably wouldn't have held up but JAL you thoughts. I just find this really hard to take seriously to be honest and a lot of that is because obviously I'm not out there playing you know my contract my career. You know my legacy is on the line so I'd probably take much a much less serious about this but a further your away from winning the two thousand seventeen world series. I'll just like you guys are like really emotional about this great but you know I read in The New York Times. One of the writers were. We're supposed to be one hundred percent share with the game. Play fairly that is the very underpinning of sports. And that's a good line but it also seems sort of absurd to me because sports especially that were will first and foremost about entertainment like we do them and pay attention to them. Because they're supposed to be funded at good programming and like all of his moralizing about something. That's not very important so I guess for me. The issue is do you really want to stamp out all cheating in sports seriously legs at. Is that what we're supposed to go from here? So how we're does gamesmanship end and cheating begin in baseball Do they really want to go that far? Do we really want to go down that far down the wormhole in figure out like all the different ways in which players and teams are trying to get advantages. That are not legal. That are outside of the rules. Investigate every team in that way they really WanNa be subject to that kind of scrutiny. Because it seems to be with asking for here the thing that's so fascinating here is that players compete against each other on the field and they compete hard and whatever sport. It is but off the field. There's usually more solidarity in this. They're usually on the same team against management but they are the same team right because this is all a union like they're also hiding the Astros hiding behind the union direct. Yeah I mean the Union is kind of behind the fact that the Astros got immunity here and yet the other players in the union. Don't seem very happy about this Lindsey. No because they feel like something was taken directly from them. Which of course you can never know exactly where this went. I do want to say though while you are talking about the very serious implications of this. I really only WanNa talk about altuve shirt and like what really. I think this is the funniest scandal gain the world and somebody who's not a huge baseball fan and isn't tied to it. I am enjoying devouring. Every single second of this drama Carreira recently said that you know. He both excuses. He said I he didn't want me to take your shirt off because his wife didn't want him to take a shirt off anymore when instagram it is full of shirtless said it was that and the Tattoo thing. It was both so there were a lot of reasons here for him to keep his shirt on. But I think what's been fascinating to me is finding out what an open secret this was within baseball. Which once again is someone who's not As clinic clued into the day to day. That was surprising for me. There is a big piece in the Washington Post about how when the nats were playing them in the world series. Everyone kind of reached out to them. Big Help from everywhere to talk to them about the ways that the whether you want to call it gamesmanship whether you WanNa call cheating the ways that the astros were stealing signals and figuring out things so the nats actually went into this last world series with kind of a plan to combat that which I thought was just absolutely fascinating and players knew about it seems like teams knew about it and yet how do we square that with the fact this is going on for years and only now are we hearing the rage from. It's not just guys like You know bellinger was specifically harmed by Mike Trout. The face of baseball to the extent there is one saying that the punishment was week. Yu. Darvish who I guess was actually particularly by saying the astros should be stripped of their title. Does that actually not make sense Jolliffe? Everybody knew about it. Was everybody just mad all of a sudden when we previously discussed this on this podcast. I mean that was the thing that sort of struck with me because you know dusty. Baker came out this weekend and said he wanted to get the MLB involved with this low premeditated in retaliation you'll faithfully pictures on throwing fastballs. His players heads all year dusty. Baker new manager had nothing to do with any of this and he's been called on to kind of steer the ship. Now Yeah Right in. My thing is like we know that about baseball. Like they are have away of handling these sort of issues within the field of play like that is you. Don't throw in the ball or that. Somebody's head is giving US Chin music right so we're to believe that he's highly competitive dudes knew or suspected that cheating was going on and they just let it happen. You know I it anybody they never. I mean I don't understand why now if you if you suspected it. You're mad about it before everything. That was at stake. Then it's going to be a stake in the future but you know you had an opportunity to a divisional series championship series a world series on the line. And you would just hoping that the reps are going to step in the history was going to justify than somebody who's going to him and you guys got cheated out of a world series. I don't I don't understand why now they're upset when they had opportunity to you know showed discontent in that moment throw fastballs if people complain about that sort of stuff. What would what was the hold of been? Why why are they so mad? Day proposed an opportunity to actually do something about it when they were stakes involved. Yeah I mean I think that's a really great question. I have heard that there was some reporting MLB. And then I'll be investigations. Kinda didn't go anywhere throughout the years. But it also it's one of those things it the skeptic in me makes me wonder this because there's so much more of this going on behind the scenes than anyone knows right then. There was so much more of this going on behind the scenes than you would think that players would have it and sent it to shut up about it. The thing that's spent so interesting. Is that the Astros are being treated by their peers as miscreants and outliers and like if there are unwritten rules and we know baseball's unwritten rules about how far you can and should go with signs delaying. It just seems to be universal at this point at least in these kind of spring training press conferences that the Astros with you know looking at the video signals during the game using the trash can signal You know whether an off speed pitches coming Maybe wearing buzzers under their shirts. Like everybody seems to think that if it's if it's everywhere than at least this version of it hasn't everywhere. Yeah it seems like because of how big this has gotten so quickly and how now we know how intricate it was it just given permission to kind of just continue to throw these players under the bus but you do wonder how much of this is gonNA come back in. How much is this a systemic? Not just within the Astros but within baseball at large care also just say maybe I'm wrong. Stepping was right Alec. Midsection was right at first. But don't you just think that in two months in the wires on care about this I failed to believe this is going to be continuing story. The MLB has no interest in dragging the story out in any retaliation that has done. You would think would be done last spring in the first few games of the season. Then the games have to get started. There's a whole new pennant chase going on. Why do we think all this complaining is happening now because the news is out now but I just don't believe that we have the aptitude of the you know the ability to pay attention? You know the the attention span this carry on the story forever out of state plays blow off steam now and the MLB will just all right. Well you you're mad about it. Keep on or and. Joel's future world the XFL DOES NOT EXIST. Talking about this week are we. We're talking about we're talking. We're not talking about the XFL. But I think the analogy with the patriots as always instructive and Pimm or still talking about spy gate. Fifteen years later and you also never heard this kind of concentrated anger directed toward the Patriots from other players. I don't feel like ever from players on every team. And it's also just the fact that this has coincided with the start of spring training it's like reporters are all like fanning out to these sites in Florida and Arizona and they're kicking off the season by Lake reacquaint themselves players. And it's all anybody wants to talk about. I think that that there will be other things to talk about in the next couple months. Joy agree with that that this will fade a little bit but I have a hard time thinking that the astros role in this the fact that the two thousand seventeen world series is tainted. I don't think that that's going to be forgotten by anyone. I don't either but also I think the reason this keeps coming up is because their pr they keep having PR disaster after PR disaster after was astor. Like if they're handling this with any sort of like contrition and adult behavior. I think this'll be different. But just you know this week. We had Jim Crane. Say Oh this didn't really impact the Games itself. Nobody should be held responsible. Awaited did impact the Games. You know what I mean just like within sixty seconds seconds of each other you have. The bregman sounded robotic like. He was rea- streit. They're not that's a thing so there will the players the players that have left the using my same construction about the the further. Your Way from Houston. If you're an astros player like the former players are extremely contrite and about what took place which actually makes the current astros players look worse because these guys who were their teammates are performing. I think the way that their peers on that fans WANNA hear. Yeah I agree with. What do you think they're going to do that? So we've got George Springer. I don't believe I don't believe. Mlb players they. They're really upset about this. I think their their performance for awhile. I'm I'm becoming the formative. Outraged personnel got really reassess. Where I'm coming from it but I really do think that yes the people that feel like they were denied a world series or pennant are upset and they're lashing out right now because yes you probably would be upset if you thought that that team got the best of you and he worked angles on you to win the championship. Even though we know that some of them suspected it was happening at time right and for some reason they didn't protest vocalized. These concerns at that time right but I just I feel like we saw what happened. The steroid scandal that too many guys that emerged from that standpoint will clean at this point. Now they're giggle headed to the hall of fame but then people get a firmly ensconced within baseball cultural again even up to working on. Mlb teams people guys. That were you know. Very much at the center of the steroid scandal side is right now. They're hot about it. Maybe they should be but I just don't see that anger sustainable itself. The Astros did have a pitcher banned for a whole season for Francis Murtaz. Happy that this happened during the midst of the science dealing scandals like nobody cares about doping right now so people don't even know that you got suspended for a year and haven. Nobody's mad at them for all their domestic violence mess ups now so this is taken away. This is taken away the focus there people. I started getting mad at them all that I got started correcting it. Just Kinda metastasized southern thing right. Yeah so you mentioned whether people are going to stay mad at them. So one instance in which peers do stay. Mad is the players that crossed the picket line during the players strike. There were guys. That guy called SCABS for the rest of their careers. And so I think you're right that this is not get to that level jaw like I think if a guy from astros switches to another team now hill like say all the right things and the teammates will get over it. I don't think somebody's GonNa get ostracized so I think that is probably a good indicator of where the scandal sits in terms of how it's perceived by players on the game. I think it'll be a punchline. Infinity say spy gate like this is going to be a punchline and this is going to be dragged into conversations whether it's out of pure anger I don't know and you know if we're talking about how this is going to ender how this is GonNa Fade. Remember that Major League. Baseball hasn't announced its punishment for the Red Sox who are caught up in a similar if not as pervasive and all encompassing science dealing scandals. This is going to be back in the news and people are going to be comparing their penalties. And there's going to be a whole other round of conversation about that out from Houston Jerry Council. Sorry this week's episode of Hang Up and listen is brought to you by COM. Are you struggling to sleep these days? You're not alone one in three. Us adults don't get enough sleep and if you're not sleeping enough it can affect your cognitive functions during the day like learning problem solving and decision making. That's why we're partnering with calm. The number one APP for sleep sleep efficiency does serious damage not just to your brain but to your body. The sleepless prone accidents weight gain and depression with calm. You'll discover a whole library of programs designed to help you get the sleep. Your brain and body need like soundscape in over one hundred sleep stories narrated by soothing voices like Stephen Fry and Jerome. Flynn from game of thrones so if you WANNA see the day sleep. The night with the help of calm right now hang up listeners. Get Twenty percents off a calm. Premium SUBSCRIPTION ADT COM dot com slash. Hang up that C. A. L. M. dot com slash. Hang up forty million. People have downloaded com. Find OUT WHY AD. Calm Dot com slash. Hang up a month ago the WNBA and its Players Association signed a new collective bargaining agreement that among other things allows the biggest stars and women's basketball to make more money this month. Though stars started thinking new deals and changing teams intial macaw Tree Christie tolliver dewana Bonner Skyler diggins Smith all all stars all going to be wearing new uniforms Lindsey. Let's start with a Y. What is the deal? What's explanation for all of this player movement? Well for one. You have an increase in salary cap. It went from. I think one million to about one point three million so that's a pretty significant increase. It gives teams a little bit more to go at second. You had these bigger contracts available before the Max players could get was around one hundred seventeen thousand dollars now. The Max is two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars. That's a big difference in money that I think are making the elite players trying to seek out teams. That can give them that Max contract because of course not everyone's going to be able to get that Another important thing is that as part of this negotiation of this new. Cba The core designation that teams are allowed to give out which is basically the wnba version of the franchise tag and the NFL. That gives the team. Were the player is contract with has gets to hold onto them so that has decreased. They took away a year for that. I think it went from four to three and going forward. It's GonNa go down even last two two so it gives players more availability for movement the big elite stars whereas they used to be tied to their teams for upwards of ten years if they were in a really elite player played their entire rookie contract and then record four times. You know you're talking about a decade so those things really combined to make what has been the most exciting free agency period in WNBA history. And one that I think will change the future of the League so if somebody that admittedly probably doesn't watch the WB as much as one thing the NBA fans media complain about. Is the idea that free agency while it has increase off-season interest in the league. And you know there's like this long running drama but like the constant shuffling of stars and teams in some ways not good because it diminishes the hope for other teams and so on and so forth makes other teams instantly competitive and others. Not so much. Do you worry at all about that or no. I mean one benefit the WNBA has right. Now they're only twelve teams right so they're such a concentration of talent. It really needs to expand so there are so many good players. It's different when you have your leap players. Spread out over thirty teams. If a couple of them congregate you're GONNA have some teams without any superstars at all whereas that's harder more difficult to happen the WNBA because they're such elite talent. And Yeah I mean. I think there's always a give or take with these things right. I think there's of course. There is some teams who love you. Know Phoenix's devastated the doina Bonner. Isn't there anymore. Dallas fans would have loved to see another season Schuyler. Dick Smith you know. Washington mystics fans are sad that Chrissy toddlers gone. That's a part of it but when you look at the new configurations of these teams you have what is essentially a super team now with the Phoenix Mercury with Brittany griner Diana drowsy Schuyler Digging Smith. That could be your starting three on the Olympic team. I'm not saying it will be but it very well could be. You have to WanNa Bonner joining John Jones in Connecticut for which is an instant improvement for a team that made it to game five the WNBA finals last year. So I think seeing this player movement is by far net positive for the League especially when you consider the WNBA season is only five six months long kind of depending on how it goes we. There's been a big need to get more talk about the league during the off season and this is a huge way to do it and you you mentioned like the sparks of candace. Parker Neka Graham Mackay Chelsea Gray and tolliver now the Las Vegas Aces Have Liz Cam. Beija Wilson Andrew McCarthy tree The Storm Have Subaru. Brian Stewart. Jewell Loyd I mean there. Aren't that many teams and there are a lot of very good players so kind of super teams are going to happen organically and now with all this movement. It's just GONNA lead to hyper concentration of talent but probably on more teams that art in the NBA and it's also I think consequences just like an NBA when they raise the cap by a huge amount and a single year and decided not to smooth it out like this was probably the year. We're all the movement is going to happen. And then in the years to follow that. There's probably GONNA flexibility for teams to make deal and it's interesting 'cause it's setting the market as we go because the WNBA has never had this right. Where a bunch of players can earn over one hundred thousand dollars you know it used to be just for the select few so we're already seeing kind of some head-scratching contracts where you're going the phoenix mercury. I thought they were trying to get Tina Charles to their rumors of they're trying eighteen. Charles and they get free a Hartley a guard from the New York Liberty. Who's you know a talented? I think of hers kind of six woman type player. But she's now got a contract for like one hundred eighty seven thousand dollars and I thought to myself. Gosh it feels refreshing to feel that there's like a bad contract money going around but like you feel like some teams are some mistakes with their cat money like that and look. This is nothing and spree Hartley. But you know. She's not one of the elite players in the league. So I think you're going to see some GM's make some mistakes. Which is something we've definitely seen in the NBA. Whenever there's a cap spike you. I mean that's one thing about orders as bad organization no matter. What like a more focused. Now what did you you said Dinosaur Aussie in? I was shocked to find out down. Atrocities ONLY GONNA be thirty this year. 'cause like forty five years old something like that point can the mercury stop counting on her because again in basketball at some point you say oh well you have to acquiesce to age right but without its Rossi. It's like oh she's still going to be a czar in her like twentieth year is wild although she is she's she's missed pretty much all but a couple of games of last season with back surgery that ended up kind of moving into a hamstring thing. Because that's how these things work. You are overcompensating. She hasn't played for USA basketball yet. She's been with the team but hasn't been on the core. She's very motivated to get herself healthy. She wants to be on this Olympic team and she wants to play another season with the mercury but her body is definitely breaking down. The real outlier. Here is sue bird. Who is two years older than Diana Drowsy? And looking as good as ever which doesn't make any sense 'cause I this. Is You know as you get older. You lose a sense of like how old are yours. I had no idea the super bowl to your own. Ross she helped recruit Diana Trask Yukon. Isn't that wild? See I remember watching. Sue Bird in the final four and I just assumed that I like this is the way the Yukon lineage goes Rebecca Lobo to me at least Rebecca Lobo somewhere there diners Rossi. Dentsu bird like there was no way. I wish I could have not told me in any way. That suber sound Maybe subverters fairly. I've seen her up close and you would never ever that. She was close to forty ridiculous. They're only one hundred forty four roster spots in the NBA. Have these players kind of hanging around and you have women's College basketball is only getting better several years. There's so much of a squeeze and these rosters is getting more talented but the really interesting thing about this. Cpa Lenzi is that it really puts the squeeze from what I've read on these Middle Tier of players that it's better for the stars but for the players that are phillies rosters. It's not necessarily the greatest deal. Yeah and I think that what we're GONNA see unfortunately is so. There's yeah there's only one hundred and forty four roster spots and unfortunately I think what this cap. There's going to be a lot of teams just carrying eleven players this year. Because that's the minimum so there's going to be even fewer but for salary cap reasons. That's the kind of thing that the players union is going to be pissed about. I mean maybe they anticipated a I can just imagine in any sport. That's the idea that teams wouldn't be carrying the Max number of players is not gonNa make the Union half it's not ideal and it's a for me that was the one weak spot in their CBA. I'd hope that they would at least expand the roster to thirteen or fourteen. If there wasn't gonNA be expansion because there had been a time when roster sizes were fourteen and so. I thought that we might be getting back to that to getting even more players in the mix and now it seems that there's going to be a backward step but also there's give and take some other way and hopefully over the next couple of years as this particular business model get sustained there can be actual expansion in the League which then will take care of losing some of these spots but I agree. It's going to be very interesting to see how this impacts the middle of the Road Player. So far everyone is benefiting all these free agent signings because a lot of them are bigger names. Right are getting deals even for the lower tier ones that are north of one hundred thousand. Which is you know what only the Diane atrocities were getting before by. Yeah it's a whole new world and there are going to be some losers. There's some losers in every single negotiation like this. I mean there's some rosters that they already have eleven or twelve players and I'm just like how are they even GonNa sign their first round draft? Pick this year like there's just no space She is probably clearly the best lawyer in Polish women's Basketball Point Guard for University of Oregon would've been the first pick in the WNBA draft. Is that fair to say Lindsay Davis? She come out right this year but passed on. The drafter went back to play college. Oregon and now Oregon is one of the best teams in the country. They beat the US women's national team in an exhibition earlier this year in large part because of her. I just wonder let's say that. Cba is done at this time last year. That doesn't affects. The brain is decision to go back to school. I don't think as much because I think rookie contracts are still pretty low. You know I mean the rookie. Contracts have definitely increased. But you're not making the two hundred thousand dollars. If you're a rookie Brandon Stewart actually still eligible for the Max in her fifth year like she signed right now. She has resigned her contract for like one hundred eighty five which is of course way better but she doesn't have the years under her belt. I don't know what exactly it is yet to be eligible for the Max so I don't think that would have necessarily change. Sabrina 's calculation and of course the big thing for her was that they did win the National Championship. And she knew she came back. That Oregon had a good chance to win the National Championship. Although South Carolina's actually been the best team this year so You Know Dawn. Staley might have to say about that but that was the big reason. So I don't think that would have changed her calculation over all but I think in general it might impact some players down the line and we're already starting to see more players come out early because remember. It's not just the money that they can earn in the WNBA. It's the money they can earn overseas as well. That adds up to be a good amount and let's face it. What Sabrina can make will will make sure from Nike will far surpass her wnba contract. She's fascinating figure Rachel Bachman. Outta good piece about her and the Wall Street Journal that noted that Oregon tickets for game against Oregon stay where selling secondary market for almost five hundred dollars the best seats that she's increased attendance. There's a huge amount. I'm curious your thoughts. Lindsey about the fact that a major reason for her mainstream fame as that. She's been getting a lot of attention from mel players male commentators. She has this very well now and had this very well known affiliation with Kobe Bryant. She has been praised on social media by a huge number of NBA stars. Whether you know Lebron James Steph Curry Jami rant. What do you think it is about her that resonate so much with NBA players? And how do you feel about the fact that a lot large part of her famous because of getting this kind of affirmation from men? I don't actually think that that's I think she had the stats before that came right so that might be a reason that some people on the sides are paying more attention but she passed the triple double mark so she has more triple doubles than any player male or female in college basketball after her junior year. So she I mean. She is just shattering records in a way that we haven't seen any college basketball player do and I think that the way she's been able to take over. The game has a lot to do with that. She plays with style and attitude that kind of transcends sport and transfer event her amazing numbers. She does and I think a lot of it looked. She's in Oregon and I think the closeness to Nike has also made her kind of more accessible to these. All these superstars coming in and out of Nike Headquarters and the relationship organ has with Nike. But Yeah I mean I'm not gonNA say she's been in the past year on the cover of the Washington Post sports section on the cover of the New York Times sports section on the cover of the Wall Street Journal Sports Action and the cover of the La Times sports section. You don't see that is huge exposure right within dig about what it took for that to happen because it would like. Zion was great but he didn't have the career resume that Sabrina have got to go back You know what else I I do. Think that be a players. See something in her attitude like achieved visibly taught shit. Oh which is not something. Yeah Right which did I know that that happens at all levels basketball at any point but like with her. It's like visceral. She's she's like she's spitting anger the whole time she's plan and I think that's something people really relate to. There's a video of her playing I think it was against Justin Herbert though Oregon quarterback and like his brothers and she likes stuff's a guy and shoves him when went viral. It's great and there is a small thing that really stood out to me and that Rachel Bachman Peace and the Journal and mentioned that in ask you might play in the Olympics and three on three basketball and for whatever reason the Olympics has not given women's basketball the kind of bump historically that athletes and other sports have gone. I don't think it's given wnba much of a bump. I don't think it's made the best players bigger stars but for some reason. I feel like Sabrina UNESCO in three on three basketball for the first time ever in the Olympics I feel like that could be really huge for her and for the sport. Yeah I think it could be really great. I mean I think seeing her. I can't wait to see her compete with the national team and try and make that roster and I think she's got already has a really great case for it but I actually am curious to see what this Olympics overall does for the WNBA. Because there's a lot more synergy right now between the USA basketball and the WNBA. Diana drowsy and sue bird basically single handedly or doublehanded lagasse between themselves created this year year long national team program. That has brought the national team to around all of these colleges and I'm actually really excited to see what the Olympics can do now that it seems that Cathy Engelbert the Commissioner of the WNBA. Anti meals basketball seem like they actually want to capitalize on some of that momentum that could be created and I. I hope that that's the case. No matter who is making the roster is really interesting because and you ask catch me if you disagree here but the US Olympic Team. His never had a better a more dominant program than its women's basketball team right. Like I mean I can't think of another team program like the even we called evincing the Dream Team but they've lost. You know what I mean. I'll be like yes if Sabrina does play a role in creating this better synergy with Wsbiu basketball rod with. We need to ask the question. Why hasn't that already happened by we? We rally around the women's soccer team in a way that you know as great. We should do that. We rally red all these other socrates but the women's basketball team for whatever reason is good as it's been is dominant is has been has never gotten this kind of support. It's never translated anything else beyond and I think you can't discount the role. The racism and homophobia have played in that and Also just think there's been a lot of taking it for granted you know. There's there's taking that greatness for granted there have been years where soccer team hasn't one right but you really do assume that every time. The women's team takes the court that they're going to win and there will be overwhelming favorites at the Olympics. This year. They're probably third team would be favorites. The Olympics year but international basketball's improving at a very very fast rate. Wnba players all throughout the teams in Tokyo and they almost got beat by. Nigeria in a warm-up tournament a couple of weeks ago barely eked out a win over Nigeria. So it's GonNa be fun and I hope that this is a changing of the guard. Because you're totally right Joel. It has gotten completely lost in the shadows and while the soccer team has been hailed as heroes. We've really taken the greatness of the basketball team. And hopefully this'll be you know we'll get one final Olympics was sue bird and Diana Ross and like let's not take this for granted. I wanted to let you know that in our bonus I went for slate plus members. We're GONNA catch up on the US. Women's national soccer teams equal pay suit and look at why the men's team express solidarity with their female counterparts. If you want to hear that and you're not a slate plus member you can sign up for slate. Plus it's just thirty five dollars for the first year you can sign up at slate dot com slash hangup plus the fire so first of all appreciate Joshes in the middle of putting together. The Four Seasons of a slow burn podcast. He's also working on his podcast. That you listen to right now and yet be found time to binge six-part Cheer Series for Netflix. But that alone doesn't tell you how the show is. But it gives you a pretty good idea. The series takes place at the viral Jimmy College in Texas a little South Dallas. Where longtime coach Guile? Donna has built this unlikely cheerleading. Powerhouse Navarro is one. Fourteen of last night's best junior college championships. In five of the eight grand. National Championships was awarded the overall top sports. So if you remember the last chance use series then you'll get the appeal of cheer last chance you cover these junior college program towns in Mississippi. Kansas he's talented but troubled. Athletes come in search of another way too big time. Football Cheer doesn't quite like that and it's not exactly clear where the Post Navarro destination is even if the future is brighter for the kids. Come through coach Donald Program while they're there in Texas of all places there's much heroes is the football players if not more so you get to watch them perfect their craft in all six episodes sometimes excruciatingly so literally and figuratively. There's a seemingly endless. Tally of broken bones cracked ribs and concussed heads and in fact. We've got a clip from Morgan. She's a member of the Navarro. Cheer team who sort of a Newbie is far as competitive cheer. We'll go right. Here is crazy but we do you think about it. Like clever thought of taking people and a back spot in chucking someone is Aaron. See How many times they can spend. How many times they can flip. That person is psychotic but yet I'm the crazy person because I'm the one that does it does seem crazy. You can really hear the bones cracking and ankles breaking all this stuff throughout the series we in practice probably about a third of the time that the documentary goes and it's all of service of this one perfect moment. That doesn't quite come together and I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it but it's not even pretty at the end so anyway Josh. You finally watched over the weekend what was your big takeaway cheer. Congratulations first of all on getting me to watch it. You've been honest talk about cheer for Awhile and I was kind of you. Know putting it off like yeah. I'll get to this eventually. And then I watched the first episode and then I watched all sex and very Rapids after it's just before we get into all of the like really fascinating conversations. We can have about the show. It's just an unbelievably well made piece of television Docu series. You know you heard in that clip. The sounds of that hundred pound cheerleader. Morgan getting tossed in the air and caught like and the way that they have that Mike. You can really kind of here and feel viscerally the pain every time one of those moves gets made and so it's just incredibly well shot. I'm the sound is great. And the way that they integrate the competition with the back stories of the athletes going back to their hometowns and hearing about their stories. I don't know if I've ever seen a work of kind of reality. Television Docu series like this. That is so transfixed. Saying I haven't actually seen last year. That is also on my list so I don't know if last chance you is this. Good but Lindsey. I just could not stop watching the series I e to just binge it basically over the weekend after my podcast co host had been. Becky meet a lot of very similar. Yeah it was all of the getting to know these people within the context of doing this. I've never been a big athletes. Shocker have been just a sports fan. One of the sideline people most sports though while they amaze me they don't feel like they're in another universe like watching this and watching the things that these these athletes are doing just feels like Bayer completely different human beings than been. I am but I think what I really appreciated about this docu series. Is you think of cheerleading. And you think kind of the GLITZ and the glamour maybe the cattiness. Maybe the you know the Polish and the shine or is this really was all about kind of the humanity of it the athleticism of it and I mean this is this powerhouse program that practices in this bare bones gymnasium in the middle of nowhere. We'll Navarro's both the juggernaut and an underdog. I think makes it a Joel. The perfect subject for a series like this and they have one rival Trinity Valley which is kind of glimpsed very occasionally and they have this coach vantage. Johnson who's like the opposite kind of coach. Monica made me wonder like what would the Docu series about Trinity Valley Have Have Been Because Navarro is portrayed? I think correct like these kids come from really difficult backgrounds. They do have to struggle and yet Navarra wins all the time and Trinity Valley. Doesn't I wonder if you could have made such a compelling series about the rival school or if it had to be Navarro I think it helps a lot because that way you get Daytona in the final championship is the final championship. Competition is and you get this pay off. You get the C. Team defending or not defending its tidal. And that feels a little bit different. Because that's the that's the spine of this story. House Navarro going to maintain this excellence. You know in you see how they how they get to be great in you get to see will pay off at the. I don't know that we would have gotten that at Trinity Valley but the one thing that I thought about was my guy. They don't have a lot of resources there and I thought about that most wind shooters got hurt over and over again and it'd be like oh well you know maybe you should is set up for you should go see the doctor or whatever in it any other major program in any other major sport. That'd be so much. More attention paid to the injuries that were compiled during the course of competition. And it just didn't happen that may actually I mean in some ways I was? It was inspiring their soldiering on in spite of all these limitations but also what it would have looked like if it had happened at University of Texas if they had all these sort of resources and I wonder I wonder why does University of Texas. But it's not until the end you realize that if they're dominating amongst all these other programs that are similarly limited. It's not like community colleges. Junior colleges are well Sunday in any way and sometimes they score four high with a beat and often they score high enough to these other programs right neck repeating at that level but fundamentally their primary competition are these other poorly funded schools in far out places when it has made me wonder what would that look sexy neighbor with that look like. Smu When for me love that brought up the fact that this is cheerleading is not like an NCWA sanctions sport. And I think so much. Sexism goes into that and like the way we viewed cheerleading throughout the year. But also one of the things I did not see coming and would have honestly love to hear a lot. More about was the final episode. You hear about this conglomerate corporation Varsity that kind of has their stranglehold over the sport and I've done a little bit of research about how varsity has kind of fought to keep it from being an NCWA sport right so that varsity gets to keep hold of this sport and keep making the prophets and keep like running this world'll competitive cheerleading. And now that I'm ever ever in favor of you know. Ncaa guy and taking control but there are sort of some regulations on some level of minimal oversight when you are an NC double a sport that it made me wish kind of wonder if this would be they would be better off to have. I don't know what you Joel was. How many times per day? How many hours per day per week do they do all the time? Right notations and don't like there's one trainer for their whole school so basically the way it worked out like at one of the early scenes. The one you know. One athletic trainer was all the way working with another team. Also a across. And then there's a serious injury and they had the like drop everything and come all the way over whereas you know you're getting much more over say in their certain. I mean we know they're not always follow but there are concuss. Some symbolises of Russian protocols. And things like that and the only way I felt like it not being. Ncwa spor really benefited was the fact that I like. These players were able to create these social media followings and off of them which. I thought was a really interesting thing. There was one of the cheerleaders. Gabby I think her name was who had like you. She has almost a million followers on instagram and was really building a brand and of course one half million notes here is not bad and of course if she was. I kept thinking if she wasn't NCW ATHLETE. Of course that wouldn't be allowed. I found that to be interesting. It's the first thing I wrote in my notes as cheer shows what could happen if the NCAA allowed athletes to market themselves. Yeah and that is a benefit that these athletes have that with us not being an NCAA SPORT. They can do sponsored content on their social media And they can make money from you know. Cheer Was about a football team. The all of the people that are in our incredibly famous. If if if you get into youtube and like look at all the stuff that these guys have John like Jerry is on the red carpet for Ellen Degeneres like. They're all doing like every conceivable marketing opportunity. And it's and it's great for them and I'm sure that they're being able to profit off of their names and likenesses which they would not be able to do as Ncaa athletes but the varsity brands thing is so insane. Matt Stoler had a good post about it in his newsletter about monopolies. It's like not only does varsity. Do these competitions. They also sell all the apparel. Stoler pointed out that they had one competition where they actually gave teams more points if they did stunts with varsity brands. Like why US these These competitions are marketing essentially vehicles for Varsity cheerleading outfits cheerleading products. It's like this totally like Verti- vertically integrated monopoly and It's IT'S NOT. It's truly you couldn't watch it on. Espn or anything. You have to buy their streaming platform to even be able to watch this and that was just that was really sunny and so part of this. Was that the camera crew. Netflix camera crew couldn't bring their Crew completely into Daytona Film. They kind of relying on like iphone footage because of this varsity monopoly. Another thing that I thought about with cheer in regards to the people that make the team is how easy it would be for. These kids to be exploited I I. I didn't get the sense that many of them went to school are had much even academic record before they got the which in some ways gives them an advantage junior colleges because they have a much more liberal Insurance Policy Evening Another bigger incidentally affiliated school right so they can bring in people that it wasn't clear that they did. Gary say that she not been to school basically chose longtime. It wasn't clear that there was a lot of academic grounding in a lot of in in for a lot of these players they spent a lotta time a class. It was only at the end when you hear that Jerry gets the scholarship to the university academic scholarship to the University of Louisville other. Oh wow I wonder how you found time to go to class and classes but there was never any sense. Academics put any role in sort of education which may be as far. That was just a huge part of last chance. You didn't watch the most recent season last chance you but I mean in the first season like one of the main characters was the academic advisor like with these play like she was like Almost the star of the series and so far as weird like not having that part of it into it but of course all of those players are trying to go onto academically be able to qualify for these bigger schools whereas I was brought up time and time again. They are these you know. Nineteen Twenty Olds at the pinnacle of their like. There's nowhere to go for from here as far as like competitive cheerleading right. That's it for the roaches weird just in the concept of the sex of the mother because what does Lsu have a cheerleading program where you can go into and get that scholarship and you know you juku Rodman do that. Let's talk about Monaco. Dhamma the coach. She's compared in share to nick. Sabin Bill Belichick. She's struck me as kind of more like coach Taylor from the Friday Night Lights Universe. She clearly cares a lot about the men and women on her team. They all talk about her as the Queen and admiring term. She's the greatest cheerleading coach. That there is in terms of resume and yet it seems like she's putting her athletes endanger a lot of the time Jia Tolentino and apiece for the New Yorker wrote throughout the season all Dhamma uses Morgan's attachment to her in a way that pushes Morgan into physical danger. Her ribs come to the brink of fracturing though she tries to conceal let and also provides Morgan with a new confidence and a novel sense that she is needed and seen yet at times. It's a very toxic relationship in at other times. It seems like a very rewarding relationship for these athletes but I think ultimately that's kind of an uncomfortable truth at the root of a lot toxic relationships is that it's not all bad right at the manipulation part of that and I do think seeing her flippant nature towards injuries for these kids was jarring and I can't overlook at nor do I think it should be overlooked the time she was definitely giving a lot of these kids. Young adults like a support and a love and and attention that they had never received before Joel. How much of what you saw from Monica do you feel like is just endemic to high level competitive college athletics versus being unique to this particular environment. It just reminded me of every pretty much every coach that you might come across at that level or any level right because there is this sense that the coaches care about you and they want the best for you. And there's always a sense that they're going to be parental figures in your life for the rest of your life and they just want the best for you and teaching you sacrifice and commitment determination and all these other values that we supposedly imbue our sports with an end. Especially if you go to the end of this documentary. What was it all four because we get to the end of the documentary and we see that a lot of these cheerleaders that doesn't appear to be like some sort of defined half like there's not necessarily a way forward we get Morgan. Who's just kind of hanging out on campus? When it's all over Jerry was able to use his get it somewhere else but the Darius I mean he found a gym he's working at but I think the argument is that she at least claims. I've won enough. I don't need more trophies. I just do this for the kids and I want to give them discipline and put them on the right path. Yeah I mean I guess we need to know a little bit more about what that looks like after this in a big thing is. I think it's coming back for a second season and a lot of these people are coming back. What I think tears coming back for another season. But who are your sources on that Lindsey announcement amazing? Wow seeing that. I haven't seen that anywhere. You know. Rumor has it. It's coming back for a second season armor has it. Jerry's going to still be involved and Irish Back Navarro now. Yeah because Jerry's definitely back into Varo. He did not end up taking that scholarship one Jones as southern amazing right now but then he left yet and I just WanNa make sure that these contracts for the second season are fair. Tv's cheerleader Omar. God Jerry. Didn't go to Louisville Ky. Wed He went. He didn't stay. He Thought Navarro was the best place for go. Probably because of second season of the show I think it probably had something to do. I don't know right if there's not a second season guide Corsica Texas before in. I can't imagine if you need to spend more than a year. You're half there if you don't have to a quick lightning round for me. I mentioned earlier. That kind of back stories that you hear about of the cheerleaders and just the different kinds of broken ness that the show depicts like Gaby's relationship with her parents who are just around bleed overbearing and I think are seen as villains by a lot of people who watched the show. I'm Jerry and what he overt over comes in and his life with his mom getting cancer Morgan being abandoned by her family laborious getting bullied and abused just the amount of pain and kind of different types of emotional pain that all of these people went through as heroin. And I think also one of the things that I really know VIN mired as the the right word but you see the kind of like depictions of of people that you don't necessarily see and popular media in one of I. I'm transitioning a little bit here but like gay. Black male athlete is like not a category. Like we've obviously Michael Sam Jason Collins but Just like the man on this team or just really fascinating figures and not once they necessarily see and that kind of reality. Television DOCU series Environment all that often there were a lot of things to enjoy about this series amidst all this broken estimate amidst all this possible exploitation but the one thing that kept coming back to how much they all support each other how much they make community for each other and maybe that's you know the cameras there in in some ways. They're putting on a good show but he did seem that those guys those girls really did care about each other into care of each other even as they were competing amongst themselves for spots on the cheerleading team. But it does seem you know all these moments where Jerry Inlet area Room and the talking to each other and it's like very brotherly or or even. Lexi like lexi's hanging out there lexie somebody that we didn't break up Who you know if you get to. The end of the documentary is not a lot of reason to feel excited about. You know her immediate future. She's been Joel by the way she's begging while you're breaking news. Okay what did you do? Did you fall? Instagram accounts? That question and some. There's some out there. Are you have something to look forward to? After we finished recording a podcast. I'll get into that. I think like it seems like what you're getting at is. There's this intense athletic environment without a lot of toxic masculinity which is just like so rare and especially like coming from the last chance you kind of like type series like it was just not that there weren't components of that as far as the ruthless competitiveness. The you know manipulation. I mean there were so unhealthy aspects to this but seeing it be predominantly women and gay men as the stars of this Lake Ruutel. Intense athletic competition made it feel different and was putting them in a different light and showing US different sides to people than we're used to seeing represented and our media. Let's end it there and it is now time for after balls and after just ending at they're going to restart it again because I want to keep talking about cheer for just an another fifteen seconds. So did you guys notice on apparel to kind of around in the background of the show. There's this acronym. Fbi O F M. You know it's just kind of around their little Easter Egg. If you look for server they never talk about it. And I found this article on the website decider which found a tweet from Navarro. Cheerleader named Kayla Colbert that says F. I. O. F. MU is a coded message motto that you learn and earn throughout the year while on the team learning the meaning is entirely special in his only known by Navarro Cheerleaders Navarro Chair Alumni. So we WANNA know what? Fifa MU means. And we need to go to Navarro's. I'm I'm a port. Actually they did highlight deleted urban dictionary entry. That suggests that weather is so this may or may not be true but it perhaps stands for fight it out. Fuck them up. That sounds fine. Yeah all right so F. I. O. FM NEW JAL. What do you got for us? So Yeah My F. I. O. FM YOU IS THE KNUCKLEHEADS podcast and so if you're an NBA fan. You probably settled in this weekend to watch one of the best all-star weekends in recent memory. The three point and dunk contests where each decided single point. Aaron Gordon jumped over seven foot five Taco fall in lost okay. The game on Sunday night was one of the most EH competitive in the game's history. Guys Kyle lowry taking charges in the final minutes and it'd be easy to get lost in the second half of the NBA season to come is a lot to look forward to for Brandon. The Lakers one. Kobe require Paul. George keep them from even winning. Los Angeles is Genesis Year Milwaukee and so on and so forth but the knuckleheads is for those of us who WanNa look backward a little bit in it's hosted by the Los Angeles Clippers first round picks suit thousand so sorry Michael Europe. You'd miss catechists. Maybe he comes in sometimes. But it's going to be starting. Its third season visit today with an interview is Shaquille O'Neill tunnel. Here's this Arctic. Right in the PAC has so much about these star studied guests. Shacks Kobi's Dwayne. Wade's the Kevin Durant is it is about the working class of the NBA. It starts at the top where the CO host areas miles Quentin Richardson. Each began an episode. But the question in its who was the first person in the NBA to bust your ass and the responses open. This portal Time when guys like Nick Band Axel variant Davison Carlos boozer where important parts of the landscape that time of the NBA by the way is so much more delightful enough memories than it wasn't real time but you'll hear about how much the players respect. Naasi Thomas's coach how I made it these various. Aau tournaments around the country. And how the Sean Leonard was. Apparently the most unstoppable player. We don't remember Whatever reason but nobody can stop the Sean Litter? According to at least four players that have appeared knuckleheads five cats so anyway dairying quitting have this knack for getting players over ways. They usually don't in the mainstream media and that's probably because they have these relationships with everyone In fact it leads to this. Great quote because Darius Quentin. We're famous for a time for putting both their fist on their forehead after they duncan made a big play. And that's how they ended up become a problem knuckleheads and that sorta gave the most modicum of fame so much that they appeared in the Van Wilder movie series. And so it leads to this break. Seen it was great. This great clip in the podcast. Daria says Ben. Van Wilder love hit different. And so it's just great so in a time of renewed interest in are working class. Super Tuesday knuckleheads is the window. We need to the heartland of the NBA couldn't recommended more. That sounds amazing. And thank you for your appreciation of the working man. That's a sentiment that we could all we all Us More Lindsay. What's Your F- FM? You okay well I already forgotten that acronym so we talked about women's basketball and I thought I weigh dig backs or one of my favorite powerplays archival fines. I like to go back. In the archives for my newsletters talk a little bit about the first dominant force in women's basketball history in college basketball history Imaculada a small school in Pennsylvania that had about five hundred people attending all women They won the first three national championships. This was when it was the A. W. Women's Basketball Tournament the Association for Intercollegiate Athletics. For Women But they were part of some big moments in women's basketball history. The first being when they defeated Maryland. Eighty two forty eight on January twenty six nineteen seventy five in college park. That was a very first televised women's basketball game and then a just about a month later. They became the first women's basketball team to play in Madison Square Garden and they played against Queens College. And I thought I would read some excerpts from the Daily News Article Setting up this game because as you if you're familiar with Daily News articles than this won't be surprised. It says at one thirty this afternoon. A bunch of longhaired basketball players will step onto the garden court and into history for the first time in a major sports arena the players will be wearing. Mascara role I. It goes on to describe that there are two major differences between the UCLA program. Y'All Run by John. Wooden at the time. And you know the IMMACULATA which. Who's coach was Cathy Rush? Who's making that? Think four hundred and fifty dollars a year at the time so the first major difference that they harp on is the fact that she will allow both genders into locker room. Five minutes after the game so it was really funny reading back on this coverage. Because there's been all this stuff about can women be in the men's locker room but at the time they were there was all this girl? Clutching will the man go into the women's Locker Aldridge or may all so she did laugh? Let them in. And she said it would be sexist. If I didn't to close out this Daily News preview he said the mighty Max which was the name for Imaculada play a swarming eyelash to eyelash smeared the lipstick pressing defense and a run and shoot offense led by their slick playmaking guard. Marion Crawford and Mary Crawford is the one and only Marianne Stanley women's basketball legend. Who is the coach of the head coach of the Indiana fever this year? So full story. There is a grey Comic of course to go with it. That's in the locker rooms of course and It was actually a great game. Unlike the first televised game which was a blowout They be Queen Sixty five to sixty one and what everybody said was one of the Best Basketball Games ever played up until that time. Wow that's amazing. In twelve thousand people were there are so where exactly is the Macula? Well I think it's about thirty miles west of Philly. You not far from Valley forge historical park if you WanNa make like a a road trapping. Yeah I mean look. This is sports history before the big programs started investing in Women's sports. It was a small women's colleges that were really where women's sports were being made. In the coach I love said that she didn't have spending time recruiting. She did have to spend time on the phones reporting her results to newspapers after the game. So so I do not have an F. I. O. F. Mu just spending too much time looking at the instagram accounts for all the cheerleaders as one does after watching chair. But I do want to say that the archival stuff that you have in power plays is amazing and infuriating but also entertaining at times. The one that was the most recent was about a suggestion that women needed to stop playing soccer because of potential. Oh she's by getting hit by the ball. Oh yeah like it's GonNa ruin both your ovaries. The pelvis isn't strong enough for women to play also Yeah the ball could hit the breasts which would damage any ability to be a woman. Really I think that was overall So this is what's wild to me about this stuff is. I consider myself fairly. You know fairly young and I was born in eighty six and I think the article from that archive which was from a Russian news service but it was just ten years before I was born. People were saying you know like we're not talking about the you know the nineteen twenties like this is all within the lifetimes you know that They were saying this. These type of sports are too dangerous for women and it's too threatening for men which is what ultimately came to the women who who created the kind of soccer boom and the US like they were growing up while articles. That were being right. Yeah like it was. That was all part of it. They're women in our lifetime decrypt playing basketball when he was twenty. Four th ranked. Yeah nothing McGraw. I mean legendary coach. Like when she's learned basketball it was you know six on six and she was. She was the rover right. All the more reason to subscribe to that is our show for today our producers Melissa Kaplan to listen to past shows and subscribe or just reach out could sleep dot com slash. Hang up and you can email us at hang up at slate dot com pure still here. I'm guessing you might want even more hang up and listen and our bonus segment this week. We talked about the. Us Women's soccer teams people pay suit in the men's teams recent expression of solidarity there. Some disputes over. What soccer is soccer? Should be you know. There's a lot of drama. Because the money making entities are essentially the two national teams right by the mandate of us. Soccer is not just to run these two national. It's to grow the game of soccer at the grassroots level. Your that conversation joins slate plus. It's just thirty five dollars. For the first year you can sign up at slate dot com slash hangup plus for Joel Anderson and Linda Gebze Josh Levin members on move eighty and thanks for listening.

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