2 Episode results for "Joe Leafy"
Paving The Way For Technology In Media
"Welcome to techno vatian a weekly conversation with people who are shaping the technology landscape peter. Hi president of meta strategy advisor technology executives ford's columnists author and your host. Each episode of technician features insights from top executives thought leaders at the intersection of business technology and innovation. If you like what you hear we be grateful that you give us a rating on itunes or through. Whatever other sources you use for podcasts. Please subscribe so you. Don't miss a thing. Thank you my guest today. Is mary johnson. Mary friend is the founder. And chief executive officer of mary. Fred johnson media in the host of leadership live on cio dot com. She's also the former at her cheap. Cio magazine was executive director of id's cio programs. In this interview he discussed marie-france career path including her non traditional pathway to covering cio's we discussed why technology leaders should not look to align with the business but instead to accelerate. We spent a good portion of the conversation discussing her take on cio board leadership including some common factors cio's who make it onto boards. We also cover the benefits to companies. Who have cio's on their boards and lessons cio's who were on board can take back to their home companies. Lastly she offers advice to. Cio's looking to joint boards among a variety of other topics this interview features insights for my upcoming book getting to nimble how to transform the company into a digital leader is available now for the order on amazon or through getting dot com. Sick around after the interview. Tiller moore mary frank johnson. Welcome to technician. It's great to speak with you. Thanks so much. Peter i always enjoy talking with you. I do as well so please on the record at this point. I'm i'm as somebody who is a luminary ao space. You do not need a big introduction with my audience. I don't imagine but you are perhaps best known. As former editor in chief of cio magazine the the moderator of the cio leadership live broadcast which is just a phenomenal phenomenal series of interviews with with leaders in the tech space x os with a healthy dose of course of chief information officers as the name suggests and a prolific writer. Somebody who's wisdom. I know my team. And i have have gained mightily from across the years as well so i'm so pleased to to have this more formal conversation after many many informal ones with you okay. Well thanks very much peter. I we've got a lot of great stuff to talk about indeed indeed wipe. We begin at the beginning at least as relevant to the cio space. You're not somebody who grew up with immersed in technology You are somebody who The written word came the more easily to the dentist too many others. Perhaps and and you were focused on journalism. I wonder what was what was the genesis of your time In focusing your skills on the cio. Space okay thanks. Exxon question and i love telling the story because i think that it reflects so much of how many of the it leaders cio's that we both know today ended up in the positions that you know they were music majors or they majored in english literature and history and then they got really interested in data side of things for me. I had started out. I spent ten years at daily newspapers. In florida and ohio in washington state and i reported on everything from city and county commission beats to k twelve education to police even state politics when i was two bureau chief for gannett news service out in columbus ohio and then we were moving to the boston area in nineteen eighty nine. My husband was an atmospheric scientist and he was taking a job in cambridge and so naturally i went reached out to the boston globe and to the boston herald and the it was. Nobody was hiring. So i was. We were arriving in the boston area. And i had heard about a very vibrant technology publishing world here and so i had examined it somewhat and made some phone calls A lot of this was so far before the days of regular emails. And you know we weren't living on our phones. Then so i was just applying my reporter skills to it. And i ended up getting a copy of computerworld mailed to me and sat there. I remember sitting there in my living room in ohio looking through it and feeling somewhat reassured that i could understand about what have the stories were about And then on the drive from ohio to massachusetts. I basically grill my husband One side down the other about the computer industry. Because i was coming into it only knowing that ibm made typewriters and the rest of it was kind of a big mystery. But i had been using some of the very early unix. That was vi editor on unix. That you could use to do work on. He had some sun workstations and very early versions of sun and unix workstations at our house and so i used that a little bit. And i remember when i was in my interview for the computer job with The executive and executive editor in the editor chiefs of computerworld. I think they were very impressed. That i was referring to things like vi editor in youth so but computerworld at always hired. They hired reporters who could learn the beat. And i think that's pretty much the way almost everybody on the tech journalism side got into it. They were journalists bite training. Then they do. They dove into their beats. Because one of the things we discovered trying to hire people over the years if you try to higher in a technical person and hand the technology beat they wouldn't know the story angle with fell on them so it was really important if you were genuinely out there reporting And then i found enjoyed it. I just enjoyed it so much and by the time i was a couple years into my job at computer world when the boston globe was to interview people and hire all. But i wouldn't left for anything at that point it just it was such a. I just enjoyed the way. The story kept changing and advancing and moving forward. And i think that that's what's kept all of us so interested in this field for so long. Is that the change aspects in the transformative work. That's going on is nearly constant. It's just you can probably remember. There was a time in the late nineties. When everybody thought that well microsoft was going to take over the world and that was that and and we hadn't even heard of google yet you know and the iphone had made its appearance. I mean there's just so much. That advances whereas daily newspapers. You find after wild at the course of human events tend to be very circular. You know when you've covered you know one hundred and eighty school board meetings. You know there's not going to be very many surprises. But the wonderful thing about technology is how it keeps transforming itself so the profession itself has just been incredibly engaging very interesting i wonder if you could reflect back on what the cio disciplined was. Like when you first started meeting people with that title Very different from today and and love in your own thoughts kind of reflect on where it was in the late eighties early nineties. When you to meet these. These men were had that role. Well yes the eighties as were late. Eighties to nineties was probably the the apogee things were booming technology publications. It was an incredibly competitive space. And i still was needing an interviewing people with titles like data processing manager and then after that it became. Is managers for information systems and it was probably not until the early two thousands that we actually started using the terminology of it leaders. Especially from i was. I was with computer world for a good while. Like for fifteen years so all through the nineties and into the early two thousands and then i came to cio magazine. A little bit later around two thousand eight but what was always infect cio magazine was a sister publication of computer worlds. Because all of these anything that had a tech publication world on the end like in a world macworld computer world network world That came from the genius brain of patrick mcgovern. Who was the ceo in the founder of international data group or i dj and he was he was quite a visionary and one of his publishers was joe leafy who got cio magazine started in nineteen eighty seven. It was very early on. Because i know later on when i was running the cio one hundred innovation. Awards program i would. I almost got a little embarrassed. Right start telling people well. This program has been around for more than thirty four years and of course in technology very few things last that long. But joe was the kind of the brilliant Brilliant behind The fact the cio profession and that attaching home magazine. Around a growing sea level executive presence in the boardroom was going to be as important as it was. and the i've run into so many So many ceo's who still thinks. The i o is publishing in print and it's not anymore not since two thousand fifteen. But my colleague amy bennett at cio dot com. She's the executive editor there. She keeps it going. They do a digital edition recorder now. in fact i was admiring one of the reasons. The january issue is all about digital transformation and how the impact of covid nineteen is changing it and my favorite part was that the the verb for that was accelerating digital transformation. And now as always one of my hobby horses. Even when i was still with computer world i didn't like to hear technology leaders talking about learning with the business all the time. I wanted them to talk about. How technology could exceleron the business so for a while. I went around saying that the alignment was the scarlet a of of it leadership. Because if you're only talking about catching up and doing what business people have figured out and you're just delivering on it. You're really not part of the strategy piece of being into technology leadership So that was you know all those things kind of developed over time. And as i you know as i mentioned i just got totally hooked on the advancing story and the way an and my transition from computerworld onto cio magazine was very much kind of it was a it was like following the bell curve up as the profession itself got more and more strategic to the business and most of the cio's that i interviewed today. You'd be hard pressed to say that you weren't talking to any of the other. Cx owes around the table. And i know you. And i have both track this very much. As at as it has become so much about innovation and business strategy and leadership And in the when i was at cio magazine. For about ten years. I was running all of the cio events that the magazine was putting on. And i used to. As i was creating the agendas i would simply develop the themes under any of those three big umbrellas. The stories were about innovation. They were about leadership they were about business strategy and if they happen to be talking about upgrading system or bringing in you know a whole new telecommunications infrastructure that was really just a detail in the stories and i think that that more than anything the way the profession itself has just really taken its place at the senior leadership table. We used to have all those stories about getting a seat at the table today when you talk to. Cio's they they're more interested in talking about how you keep that seat at the table and how you work with your board and your ceo and you know that but you know this. I'm not telling you anything you haven't heard no but always good to get your perspective. Certainly wall so More recently you've been been working as part of your own company. Mfg media you are the m. f. j in j yes very johnson media was forming my business the the former editor in chief is cio magazine is very good friend of mine. We stay in touch. Abby lundberg and i think her name is just as well known with ceos own and when i was figuring out her she is lunberg and i thought the one you know the biggest asset i had going into my own solo partnership for my own consultancy was name recognition with all those hundreds and hundreds of ceos and Vp's of it it managers people that followed our work. Computerworld later cio magazine. And so as. I was figuring out what to do with that app he was one of the people i talked to and she said use your name brand. I mean it. Just kind of it made a lot of sense. So the un. I think you and i've talked about this before how it is when you first get started I used to joke that my elevator pitch took a fifty story building. Because i was so busy figuring out. What am i knew more things that i didn't wanna do. I didn't want to develop sales leads. I didn't wanna monetize my network. Cio's i really wanted to keep doing what i had always enjoyed doing. So much as the editor chief both at computer world and cio a continuing to connect ceo's and digital leaders with a whole variety of opportunities ways to grow their leadership brands. 'cause that's another one. I mentioned one of my hobby. Horses was about accelerating rather than aligning another one. Is that ceos i believe. Are we too modest about their capabilities and about what they are doing for their companies and so constant. Whenever i get on the phone with them i tend to go. Of course the first thing you do is look at someone's linked in profile and they readily admit most of them that they're linked in profiles could use a little work. And then i give them my little lecture about how important your own leadership brand is because it's really a professional reputation in the world And then i send them some slides that i put together a you know. Say just do these few things to your profile to improve it. That sort of thing. So i i got started with that. I felt like connecting. Ceo's in digital leaders with opportunities was really just an updated version of the way. I used to describe my editor in chief job that the magazine. Because i was doing both i said i was always. My job was really filling pages and stages with cio's and that's what i wanted to continue doing. A when i was just off on my own. And i only left id because it was getting repetitive. It was a vent businesses are. They're very habit bound. The you know you get to the point. Where if something's working in the sponsors and the advertisers are happy nobody really wants to mess with it very much. And so i woke up one morning at one of our dallas events and i realized that i was facing another ten events for the rest of twenty nineteen and i felt like it was getting kind of too easy. There was not a lot of challenge. Left there for me and so and now one of my One of my best clients is still i d g because you mentioned my cio leadership live. Show i've actually been doing those. Since the end of twenty seventeen and they have been a big success with cio's of course but there are also very popular and and very well received as video productions from i g and from cio all a lot of viewership And when we first got it started the the video crew. Id came to me and said we'd like you to interview cio's on camera. I said sherwin by love that you know i've just. I discovered that along the way. In addition to enjoying editing and interviewing people. I also just enjoy being on stage. And that's that's something that sets me apart from a lot of other editors because editors tend to be fairly background fairly introverted. But i'm i'm kind of outlined that way and i just i joke with people that i've never met a microphone i didn't like whereas with our people the cio's if you were to give them a choice would you rather hold alive. Reptile or a. Microphone in your hand. They're going to pick the snake so so that Going into the leadership live a idea. I said well. How long would you like these interviews. Ten fifteen minutes and they said oh no a full hour and i said really said who's going. Well i mean. I think ceos are fessing. Do we really think that people are and and the answer was. Omg yes you know. I just got a note the other day from an executive at cap gemini and he was telling me how much he enjoyed not only watching the interview and listening to the because we also produce them as audio podcasts. Afterwards he said that he was kind of marveling at the fact that the conversation held him for the entire hour and that You know my big skill. That i bring to. That is the knowledge about how to keep people talking the fascination part the compelling part is really what these what these. Cio's have to say and so we started that in november of twenty seventeen. And i now do them twice a month and with the with the support from cio dot com. My friends they are also our cio executive council. Which is a professional association. That is part of idc now. International data corp. That's great appreciate that overview. Well one of the things that you have been covering Somebody who enjoys your writing and your cio leadership live show is the the continued to chief information officers all the way into the board room and this is something in nineteen eighty nine that those mis manager is wouldn't have dreamed of this is really representative of a function a disciplined as i say in a sense and recognition records recognition of a how critical how truly strategic technology has become for all businesses a little bit about what you have learned in terms of. Cio's joining boards. I would love to get some of your insights around You know why this change happening in your own from your own point of view and perhaps we can also get into a little bit about What you see as some of the differentiating factors of the cio's who have joined board successfully so far great great. Yes and you're just you're knowingly tapping into my favorite vein of conversation. The time i thought it would be. It'll be hard to get me to stop talking about. Just told your hands and wave a red flag to be too much one of the things that i noticed over the many years of running our innovation awards program and also the cio hall of fame which is part we established that in nineteen ninety seven that actually got guk. Oh and ten years. Before i even got to cio magazine. But there are now. I think over one hundred and fifty. Cio's who have been inducted into the hall of fame and over the ten years that i was running that program i had many lovely dinner conversations with cio's who were there picking up their hall of fame they're little glass statue and inevitably. We would talk about and many of them are within two to five years of the retirement or moving onto another type of raw. Of course what i've found is that see. I don't really retire. They go forth and they have career serving on boards or they join Private equity companies or they become advisors They get involved with startups. you know. They're they're usually they're never done. I mean especially the ones that are in their late fifties and sixties. You know it's it's So the one of the a constant topics that came up. When i would ask cio about well you know what next for you if you weren't being a cio. Today what would be next. They often talked about well. I'm very interested in serving on boards. Public boards fortune. Five hundred boards. Private company boards a lot of them. Already are doing some sort of work on a nonprofit board. But then when i would you know in typical obnoxious journalist fashion. Ask more questions about that like well about that. And what is your next step on. That there were generally they they didn't know and so when i was starting Mary johnson media. I talked with my friend. Amy bennett at cio dot com. And i said i would love to write about this journey toward the other side of the boardroom table. But also i've i've been trying to. Actually i do one or two columns a month. And i've been trying to kind of split the attention between ceos who need to be in front of boards and some of the skills that out requires and then also. Cio's who end up on the other side of the boardroom table. How does that happen and it. I think it's been. It's been a very fun journey for me. Because it was nothing that i had really interviewed a lot of people about or new a whole lot about and i was relieved to know that most of my audience also not much about it and so i started and because i've got a big fan of linked in and so i was using the lincoln search tools to find how many of my currently practicing. Cio's or even former ceo's are on boards and it's a pretty huge number. There's increasingly Ceo's are showing up on that other side of the board table. Well i say a huge number. In terms of overall board members people with backgrounds in technology leadership are still very small percentage of all those seats out there. But that's great because what a growth opportunity right. So i what i've found is i've interviewed. You asked what. Like some of the common factors of people that the cio's who end up on boards they do tend. I've found i often start with my cio friends who talk about servant leadership. They are often. They've started with nonprofits. They're very involved with charitable organizations. In fact we were talking earlier on my friend. Angelique oakham who i just interviewed for the last leadership live show she has been she comes from a service oriented family that we're always you know. Get out there and joined nonprofits. And what can you be doing to help your community. And so there is a definite tendency toward that they tend to have also a really deep deep and abiding interest in the business side of things. They need the supply chain the distribution problems they are they truly are business thinkers who happen to have an expertise technology. That really seems to make them stand out many many. Cio's today of course have nba's so they understand a lot about the business side. They also they generally they have set board services one of their career goals. They're thinking about it in an intentional fashion. I it is very rare For especially a pain seat on board of fee based seat on a board to just fall into anybody's lap the pursuit of service on a private or a public board. It has to be very intentional. And once they decide. They're interested in that. They do their homework and they look around. There's lots of programs right now for board readiness A friend of mine bob. Zukas runs the digital directors network which is an advocacy group trying to get more technology leaders on boards. It's free to join for qualified technology executives and there are numerous other programs through universities The sim the society of information management will hold panel discussions on this sort of thing. I think that there has been in the last year or two. I think early in on the trend which is always nice. Because that way you're your column get some readership but i do think that it has been growing in terms of interest on the cio side. Found that to you. Talk with a lot of you talk with more probably as many. Cio's it's i or more. Yeah absolutely mary friend. I am finding that to be. The case a trickle has become a you know. Let's say a small stream with the promise. I think of this becoming more of a you know into bigger and broader bodies of water Analogy i think that if anything the pandemic has underscored the need for this sort of leaderships as as of course says so. Many companies now are leaning on their digital sources of revenue on digital tools to help them remain productive You know data in order to help run their operations and so forth so absolutely a trend that i think is is Is growing as well. I wanted to ask you Talk a bit about some of the What you see companies gaining from Adding a board member with a who is a cio with technology digital background. But i'd also be interested in your perspectives on What's what the cio. In that company. That the that a cio joins the board of also gains from that experience as well. Well that's a great topic in. It's a really fun thing to talk with them about Because it some recently wrote a column basically saying. Here's five compelling reasons why you mr full-time mr or ms full-time working cio. Why you should be thinking about board service and why this is such an ideal time to do it. You mentioned all the attention on how far along a company was in their digital transformation has had so much to do with how successfully they've been managing through the pandemic. So i keep likening it to having a a golden spotlight on technology right now an in so many boards. Have i mean they were aware of course for quite a long time about the risks of of cyber cybersecurity break-ins and things and they've all heard the presentations about digital transformation projects underway. And you know. They've looked closely at why we need to put so much money into it and that sort of thing and all of that has It has just been so exposed to a very beneficial light of day. I think during the pandemic and what companies gain what. Ceo's in a couple of them that i've talked with you know i've asked ceo's directly. When i've talked with them what did you get out of this. Why should you let your cio go gallivanting off to help some other company and of course it's never accompany in competition 'cause cio's are c. Level executives their fiscal responsibilities and they are essentially. They can't go. They can't go into areas. That are going to be problematic that way. But there is a depth of knowledge and an understanding about company operations and digitizing businesses. That when you look at the average board today they are sixty five year old white males generally from either retired or near the end of their careers. Ceos and cfo's so there is An absolutely acknowledge need for real understanding about digitizing the business and that if anything is what. Cio's are providing when they take a job on the other side of the boardroom table or when they're in front of the board as members of their ceo's team. I really think that it works well. For the on. Both sides of the table. It's a tech startups. For instance gain a lot of insight into the customer mind when they get ceos on their boards the companies that bring this kind of diversity of thought and the sort of operational depth that a good ceo cio who is going to attract a board nominating committee and is going to go through that process. they are generally. they're not just technology experts and that that was one of the things one of the many. I always start out with my list of fairly dumb questions when i'm calling up. Ceo's and board expert sin and analysts. And talk him saying why. Why why do you want. Cio's where did they bring to the board they. Also we've talked about it many times of years that We used to call the helicopter view of all the company operations. I've taken lately to switching over to the idea of the. It leaders as part of a central nervous system through a company. They know how everything works because a lot of times they have to fix it right if something something goes wrong in their distribution warehouse and it's a problem with software so they have an in-depth knowledge of how all the systems and everything operates in company but the ones that i think are most attractive to boards are the ones that bring a whole diversity of experience with them especially in united. Both know a lot of ceos who have worked as chief information officers across multiple industries. And you can't show up at several people that have gotten these seats have assured me you can't show up as a one trick pony. You don't wanna be you don't want to become the tech person on the board. You actually wanna bring all of your business experience in perspective to To that board for the discussions because boards are a team. you know they. The the board members are operating together. They don't want rockstars or people that are going to try to you. Know swan in and tell them what to do. They're really looking to operate less team. In oversight mode and every time. I've talked with a cio. Who was made that transition onto the board side has said what an incredibly eye opening experience. It is to be sitting back and to be responsible for oversight. There's there's no hands on. It's not managing staff so and that actually gets back to your original question of what do companies get out of this companies. Get a broadening of executive capabilities and mindset when their cio. Go elsewhere and get on that other side of the boardroom table. They gain new insight into how companies operate the impact of company culture in. Hold it for an industry. It's just when When i was talking with antonio common my interview recently about this she likened it to professional athletes. Who also you know. Maybe a footballer who also takes a yoga class. You know because you're essentially you're exercising different muscles and your growing as a smith's leader and i think if there's any thing that is common common to all of those executives you and i have talked to over the years the ones the really standout. Cio's the kind that are going to appeal to boards of directors when they want to bring technology leaders onto their boards Those are folks that have this intensive interest and focus on business operations and they just they love all of it and they are not narrow it. They are not you know. That's why i think when we interview them we hardly ever talk to them about technologies itself. They see technology is the tool and what the job is really about is change management and leadership of the company cultures. That are changing. I've had so many conversations recently about return to work and how that's going to end up playing out in so many different industries. And i know that that is very uppermost in the minds of a lot of board members And the the people that can bring that on the ground perspective. It's hard to think of anybody Better at that than cio's because they because of that helicopter view that central nervous system. However you wanna look at that. I think it's It's just a very compelling and they so they bring that kind of expertise to the other side of the boardroom table for those who are interested in joining boards. Given the fact that you've learned so much from others who've done that already what advice would you have for them to follow in the footsteps of those who successfully navigated the patch. Words board membership excellent question. You know how much i like to tell people their lives. Peter's this is great The first thing to do if you're really thinking about this for the first time look inward to your own motives. What is your why for this. If if you're thinking oh this is an easy way to make money. When i'm retired. This is not going to be for you. You have to be someone who's fascinated with business strategy. You wanna get your real world executive education. You wanna share your expertise. It's not it's it's really another job and especially if you have a couple of board positions. It's a lot of work. A lot of reading i recommend if they are currently vp's or cio's. I say start your search on the home ground. Talk with your own. Ceo in your board. First of all make sure that they're okay with you getting the word out there. Because that's the i. Think the oddest thing for Technology executives to realize is that you have to go public when you're interested in board service. This is not like that quiet confidential conversation you would have. With a recruiter this is practically hanging a shingle out. There you have to expand your network in fact you have to mind the gaps in your own current network all those wonderful fellow. Cio's the people that we love so much to engage with. They're not going to be all that helpful. You have to talk you can talk to. Cio's who already have a board position may be at a private or a public company and ask them how that happened and they will end up telling you that it was a personal network connection someone in their business network. You also have to. And i mentioned this earlier. How important it is. You have to consider your professional reputation as it's reflected in your linked profile. You know when a the first thing that Aboard nominating committee will do when they hear a name of someone who might be great for this open board seat. Is they go right in there and they look at. What is your leadership brand and your reputation look like to the world. So don't ignore that and then you also have to be ready with a bio and a resume that is rewritten with all the board issues. In mind you have to tell more of your own personal leadership story. You have to showcase a broader set of business acumen that you wouldn't necessarily need for an executive resume if you're going for another cio job and then finally you educate yourself on the world of boards. There's a there's an extremely good podcast if you don't mind me dropping a name of another podcast. During this i listened to alexander. Lowry has got a podcast called boardroom bound and he got their way before i did. And he's the one who has the trademark on it but he doesn't mind me calling my column that on cio dot com. Fortunately it is a wonderful podcast. It's no relation to mind work. We he he's a digital kindred spirit as it were and he has Every week he interviews various people board members and board experts a lot more business executives than. I've got a chance to talk to. So i've recommended people follow his boardroom. Bound podcast because he talks about so much of this stuff and then look around for board readiness programs. All you have once you start googling once you start asking around among your friends you'll find that there are more and more of them out there and it's a wonderful education even if you don't immediately use it to go out and find a board seat it will help you understand a lot more about your own company board and their point of view and i've just i don't think either of us have ever met a cio. Who wasn't in learning mode and always interested in in expanding their business executive capabilities so if in fact a lot of them just have a lot of fun doing that. Yeah that's great. I wanted to ask you before. I let you go as you look to the future. You've talked about some of the things you're writing things you're looking to do. What are some other things that excite you as you look out into the future things that you're planning well let me see i've got as as i mentioned you start when you start your new business. You're not exactly sure how it's going to evolve. I thought i was going to be doing a lot of travelling. Around and it i ended up pivoting to a lot of virtual moderating i i love i just love run. I love being in conversations with these different executives and so i'm excited about The continuing to research and talk to people about the boardroom bound column. I've got a great lineup. Coming for my leadership live. I've been very busy. Doing some virtual cio keynote interviews For a little. While i had podcast that i was really enjoying tech career ladder and it was bringing in a different people to talk about that and About as technology leaders are technology managers. Who would like to one day be. Cio's how do you make up that ladder. I also engaged with some private clients. I do some writing and editing. I i just did a spate of coaching sessions about how to win an award for your team. You know 'cause there's just and this was something my friend. Abby pointed out early on you know we we go into this thinking. Well we're editors and if we don't have something to ed what do we do but it. I think it is all about the vitality in your engagement with your network and it's just it's endlessly interesting. I guess to to be doing that. And i just had some conversations this week with some new potential clients who have seen cio leadership live. And they're just interested in having someone who can really get into talking to. Ceo's they're like we need somebody that really Understands them and also can make the conversations interesting and get no that that has essentially. That's kind of at the heart of what i'm doing with my own media company right now and i think like. Cio's themselves their jobs in their interests. Go in so many different directions and what the with the future is exciting to me about is having the privilege of being able to follow them in those directions and essentially to provide what they need to filling pages in stages. Ceo's and digital leaders is still pretty interesting work. Yeah well that's great. Well i certainly hope you continue to do all of the above as a as somebody who's been such a fan of your work and somebody who's benefited from your wisdom and your ecosystem you sit sit at the center of such a fascinating group of people and the extent to which you share all that with the world. We all gain from it. So mary johnson. Thank you so much for joining me today tech nation. It's been a great conversation at same here. Peter thanks so much. Thanks for tuning in. Please join me on monday. When my guests will be the president of zo timothy caspi this interview featured insights that you'll find in my upcoming book getting to nimble how to transform your company into a digital leader in an era of unprecedented technology progress and disruption it's imperative the companies transform themselves to keep up with their digitally native competitors in getting to nimble i explore companies including capital one fedex carmax domino's pizza the washington post walmart and others have modernized their practices related to people processes technology ecosystems in strategy can provide a framework for companies looking to do the same to learn more visit getting to nibble dot com.
"Iheartradio presents inside the studio I'm your host Joe Leafy? Now, this time around I got to sit down with Steve Perry. Who is the singer for? Journey provided the soundtrack somewhere between seventy and one hundred and ten million high school proms as well as several billion trips down the highway. And the final episode of the Sopranos. We talked about his new out traces his return to music after a two decade absence. We talked about the loss of a loved one. That motivated that return. And, we talked about the pressures pains that led to that long absence a time when he found, he couldn't even listen to music. Let alone make it. When Perry Join Journey in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven, he was twenty six, and he'd already been through several bands, but never landed an album deal. For their part journey had already recorded three albums to not much notice. They were technically gifted guitarist. Neil shown and keyboardist great. Rowley had played with Santana. And at that point journey was a slightly prog band that saying about walking across the clouds, and then backed it up with five or six minutes of Sky Scraping Guitar Solos. So they had chops what they lacked was a rock and roll heart. Barry provided just that. The first song he ever wrote with Neil shown, patiently was packed with personal longing. Both I love. And success. Career it's it's really a story about where at that moment talking to them about patiently waiting to join that band to be under the lights that they were under or your lights inside of me this we bring to you. The opening track on the first album Perry recorded with journey, nineteen, seventy-eight, eight fifty was lights, which is familiar to anyone seen as San Francisco giants game. And you can hear the classic soul music. That Perry grew up loving in those opening chords. Once again. This song is packed full of longing. It sipped in this case. It's not about wanting to be under the spotlight. It's about wanting to return home. In some sense, those two impulses, and the contradiction between them would define everything Perry journey did over the next decade. He helped create a stadium packing monster of rock, seven consecutive multi platinum albums eighteen top forty singles from these speeding ticket inducing stopper any way you want it. To these slow waltzing arms, which will be one of the cornerstones of the Power Ballad Hall of fame if they ever get around to building one. Sure. Know how. And then there were songs that combined both stomping and power balloting like don't stop believing or Oh Sherry. The nineteen, eighty, four single Perry's first solo, album. Street talk. Steve Perry was a guy who could combine prog rock with soul. Music, Or the classicism of Bruce springsteen with new wave since and drums. He had a voice that was operatic Freddie Mercury style, but one reason is music became a soundtrack to everyday life is that it actually felt rooted in it? It. Really doesn't matter that. There is no such places South Detroit. What matters is that? There are lonely people who feel the way, the small town girl and the city boy in. Don't stop believing field. And who want to both experience that feeling and get some relief from it for the four minutes and nine seconds. That's on West. There were a lot of those kinds of people journeys. Greatest Hits has sold better than ten million copies. But in February of Nineteen. eighty-seven Steve Perry played the last of seventy four dates on journeys tour for their ninth album, the aptly named raised on radio and he returned home. And for a long while that was it. He was done. Perry was suffering from what he describes his PTSD and he went back to the San Joaquin. Valley in Central California where he grew up in order to recover. PTSD's actually something. Other musicians have spoken with refer to when they talk about how difficult it can be to adjust to the real world after life on the road. In case, it was something more than that. A burn out so severe that initially he found himself unable to listen to any music other than the soothing sounds of ambient. He spent time writing his Harley caring for family. And trying to reconnect with himself. Though he'd make another solo album in nineteen, ninety four. It was a little out of step with things at the height of grunge. And though he'd reunite with journey for an album in nineteen, ninety six. He did not want to tour for it. He seemed to be done with the spotlight that he'd been longing for back when he wrote patiently in Nineteen, seventy seven. But. Something happened during Perry's time away. The music he made with journey, critically dismissed at the height of its popularity is corporate. Rock began to be more beloved, which is the kind of thing that does happen is cultural gatekeepers begin to change in the people raised on radio when it was defined by journey, begin to make culture of their own. In Perry's case. Patty, Jenkins who go on to direct the blockbuster wonder woman. Contacted him about using. Don't stop believing in a scene for her two thousand and three independent film monster. Shortly after she made the request Perry turned up on asking how he could help her with her movie. The two became friends. Four years later don't stop. Believing turned up again in the two thousand and seven finale of the Sopranos after which it shot right up. The I tunes chart becoming be number three selling download twenty four years after its nineteen eighty-one release. And the journey revival would only continue from there. It's at that revival did nothing to coax Perry back into public life. But eventually he met a woman who would ultimately do so. In Two thousand and eleven, Patty Jenkins directed an episode of five policy of TV movies about breast cancer and its impact on people's lives. Perry was visiting Jenkins one day when she was editing, and he was struck by one of the extras in a scene that featured real cancer patients. It was Kelly Nash. Los Angeles psychologist. Perry asked for an email introduction, but Jenkins wanted him to know nashes condition before reaching out. She had been in remission, but her cancer had returned. and spread to her lungs and bones. At that moment, I had the opportunity to send no email pullback. No harm no foul. Perry told rolling stone recently I would just go back to my safe life. Instead I said send the email. And an email turned into a phone call that lasted more than five hours and soon enough the two were living together. They had just a year and a half together before Nash passed away in December of twenty twelve. reached. Before her death. Nash asked Perry for promise. That, he would not return to isolation. In fact. She urged him to return to music. As part of the remarkable story behind traces. Perry already been working on some music before he began recording traces. To the most heartbreaking songs on the album, most of all in the rain, we're actually written before. He ever met Kelly Nash. But one reason. The recording of this album took five years. Is that Perry actually built a home studio so that he could work his own way at his own pace. And he did that work very much in private. Those who participated signed nondisclosure agreements. The album certainly has music of Lawson heartbreak, but it also has songs that have had healing vibe with Perry's return to his hometown like Noah racing. which involves a high school reunion reconnection in some time in the back seat of a car? And then new songs that involve both. heartbreak and human. Like Peres, remarkable cover of the Beatles I need you. That cover was actually a long time coming. Harry had been thinking about what he might want to do with that song written by George. Harrison since he I heard it on the soundtrack to help in nineteen sixty five. He told me about playing his version of it for Harrison's widow Olivia. And about how music? Something? He swore he'd never returned to. became once again. The most powerful focus of his life. Is elsia to say. Lovely. Steve Very welcome to inside the studio. Thank you nice to be here. You've got the motorcycle boots, and you actually ride I. DO motorcycle boots but I soon my back. I had to get rid of it. I was afraid I was going to kill myself, but it saved my life when I first left the Bam first thing I did was go back to my hometown and jump on a Harley that I bought that I never owned before I bought a software custom was a beautiful motorcycle I bought it in. California and I drove to Hanford. California put it in a storage unit which I rented, and it lived there, so every time I go to bed hometown of mine I just park the car and jump on that bike and ride out in the country where the Vince Posts and the jackrabbits were of my youth to be honest with you. I did that a lot back then it was no helmet. Law was just long hair behind you. You know it. Kinda helped. Put My head back together again. Did you grow up writing? No, but I did have a Honda when I was a young. Get trail-bike. It's where I used to drive to school, so I kind of like scooters like that right, you know, wait so this Harley. This is like the fulfilment of some sort was it was finally bought a harley and it was evolution engine, beautiful and software accustomed, had a cabernet color tank and vendors just really. I used to drive out in the country and then. After it helped. Put My brain back together and give me. Comfort. I actually just gave somebody here. Because I just didn't think I should be on. I'm. I'm just not that talented writing anymore. We're in an accident or well when I used to drink, I certainly would lay it down a couple of times right because the truism is that there are two kinds of motorcycle riders those who've been in an accident and those who will be in an accident tribe. That's right. How bad was it when you lay down I? was actually just coming out of a bar. Bar had had too many drinks and I just went to write it and start it and I lost my balance in dropped it with people who don't ride. Don't realize matter pounds. It's heavy. It's heavy I'd have to buddies. Help me straighten it out right. So that's kind of taught me that number one I shouldn't drink writhing number two is to me me I'm just not that skilled of a writer. You've said that when you left, the band bought this Harley it helped. Put your head back together. Did you've talked about that as a period where you had a kind of PTSD? It, what form did this PTSD take for you for me I could not listen to music of any kind and I could not sing or write music of any kind. The thing I could listen to stuff. That was called ambient at that time, which was like liquid mine. Steve Roach had some music out. This was like ambient, and there was no drums. Guitars was no voices. There was no. Anything like that and it was just something I thought that especially liquid mind the changes of liquid mine. A sort of Or emotionally putting back together a little bit at a time, but it was quite some time before I listen to the music of my youth, which was the army and Sam Cooks, and all that took a while to get back to that in just to stick with that notion of putting your mind back together that PTSD. It sounds like also you were self medicating at that point, self medicating. How was not medicating? Well? Drinking is all. There's no doubt that before I even left the Group In some sort of behaviors. Okay and that contributed to the emptiness that was a feeling of disconnect with the passion for music. It was a pretty scary thing so I didn't just go back to my hometown in disappear I, reconvened with some feelings and streets in the country roads and the old ice cream parlor plus I had at that time. My father's sister was still alive and I wouldn't help. Take care of her because she was into nineties and got. Got Her situated and visited her a lot because she was going from from one home of living to another, as her needs became more required for assistance, so I was taking care of her two. It was a big thing I was doing at the time. You mentioned the music that had I met a lot to the music that you grew up on. Yeah, tell me more about that. who were the singers that you learned from? Oh my goodness. The once I learnt the most from were pocket. Singers had rhythm in their phrasings. The Sam Cooks Jackie. Wilson's the Levi stubbs from the tops. Even smokey Robinson in his own way was very light and loyalty, but so soulful. Marvin Gaye of course then later Kim. Gladys Knight. I love the supremes when I was growing up. I was really big Motown Fan. So besides the songwriting and recording in the music I grew up with there was this other factor of what were they doing meaning? How are they recording it? How does it sound that way? And why does it feel that way? And how did they get that? Drum sound, and what kind of echoes on the Voice of Levi Stubbs and the Song Bernadette her baby. I need your. Your lovin or or the Marvin. Gaye troubled man I mean there was just another focused? It started to show up in my heart of trying to learn from all that at early age, so those are production engineer. They were, but they were invaluable things that I thought I needed to pay attention to and I started really early on listening to to the whole thing 'cause I realized. Very early on like about seven eight years old. Why does it feel and sound that way? It wasn't just a forty-five what went into this. Why does it come out like that I? Wanted to know what's behind it, so I slowly started to just go to school so to speak with going into these tracks. Listen to the echoes, is it? Stereo isn't model my goodness mono. Wow, okay and start really getting into why it works the way it does in, and then all of a sudden years later when the Beatles showed what I found fascinating. If you listen to motown. Most of those were on four-track. And if you listened to early, like Beatles for sale record. It's four track because you can hear that. They've recorded like three tracks ambassador to the left of the Bam and you can hear that they have a no reply. For instance they have. Ringo and I think George and maybe Paul in the distance on the right side one track accentuating downbeat of the chorus, no reply. Do! Okay, so you got ring on the right Guam. And pinching symbol with A. Boom Okay see you get that in time with what's already there on the left side when they the basic, so they're accentuating with an accent stuff that works with the main track. In the most cool way, and then they have to tracks left them to mess around. Do vocals down the middle. Now, what's really fascinating is listen lead vocal of John in the Middle, the echoes on the right Tom Left, so when they're mixing the stuff these things these decisions have decided to make to give spread to give it this inclusive feeling. Dude four channels. For, channels, What that means is that they had to really make a commitment. Once, you commit to these tracks. You can't go back his unlike today. When he got tracks to choose from. In like recording right now you've got multiple tracks can choose from. No, you got four channel. We're talking about the Beatles. There's a Beatles Song on traces on your new album is I, need you? How did you come to choose that one? What drew you to it? When I was really young love the helper, but there was one song by George Harrison called I, need you? That was so beautiful and it was a Boston older. They were kind of into that Bossa Nova thing at that time they did a lot to. Though I liked it. I thought it was a bigger song. I wasn't being degraded. I just thought my goodness. This is such a great song I. Think it needs a different treatment and I knew that as a kid so that when it came time to do the traces record. So this is one. You've been thinking about feeling for a long time. Then well. That was been the back pocket for years since I was a kid, so I turned to my co producer engineer. Tom Flowers is at Tom you know. I got this idea I got this sketch of majors with acoustic voice on one of my drives Kinda played for you. It's a Beatles song called I. Need You by George Harrison? So I played it for him, and he loved it so the next thing I know. Vinnie Calcutta was over her recording some drums I think for no more Cryan I, said Vinnie I got this other song. Would you mind just doing a pass on it? She sure what he I played it for me, says yeah. Vinnie does kind of a feel from heaven. Heaven so he went out there. One Pass just nailed it so from that point on that song became what I always envisioned it to be. which is the piano and voice in the beginning then coming in and growing and growing with background vocals, I wrote different background vocals, the Tro, then on the original, and with a drum brake going into them and. It's on my record. I wouldn't have that wasn't Libya. Because I was only going to put it on my record if I got. So you played her, the finished version so I brought the CD into a Livia and. She, turned it on and listen to the whole thing top to bottom and I was very nervous. Because this is a living, you know and I love George so much. She listened to the whole track one time, and she grabbed the remote and click a restarted it and I went. Oh, my goodness, you hear something. She wasn't pleased with I thought you know. And she got halfway through the second. Listen turn the volume down said George would have just loved this so much and I'll tell you what I felt his soul just give me approval through Olivia and I needed her blessing. So that's why it's on the record. You know it's also interesting as well. This is a song you've been thinking about today, I heard it now that you've had in your back pocket as you say emotionally, but. Fits a record that often deals with love. Loss A record that you said would not exist without heartbreak I. think that's very true. I've said it before and I guess I should say it again. That Hardee's and complete until it's completely broken annuity. You lose somebody that completely breaks your heart. Here's just not probably as seasoned or completed human being as you could be, and I can only tae. That's been my experience at didn't feel great losing Kelly. was horrible. From time to time I still go through the. The heartbreak like it was yesterday, but that's just I. think affirmation of. The strength of what we had. It's just an affirmation of that. But The record traces is not all heartbreak. It's about rock and roll. It's about class reunion moments it's it's about we're still here. It's about you know there's a lot of great music on the record, but there are a couple of songs do deal with the loss of somewhat well. You just mentioned a reunion. Moment I think you might be referring to the first track on the record. Your. Spare? Data. And the first words that I know it's been a long time coming since I've seen your face. Which is interesting way? It's reintroduction for you. It's been a minute since we've heard. So the minute for your, but that song tell us what inspired that song. It originally started as a sketch. David Spring at my house and Is, starting to grow and I love the word nor Reysen I've felt this way before, nor racer. No running anymore. That's how it started. And then when it came time to do the verse that just came out I know. It's been a long time coming since I. Senior Face are since I saw your face. I can't remember now. So the song itself evolved into a reunion song where these people meet each other to class reunion, and they get together God side and talk a little bit about old times, and they both have lives in different cities in the world, but they're together by themselves, and they get into her car and go for drive in my town. People will go smooch at this particular players. Do they just go for Dr during the backseat jumped in the back seat car and you know I don't know. No. Let's you figure that out okay. I'M GONNA. Tell you what happens all right, okay. You were saying that where you grew up. There was such a spot. Oh, yeah! I grew up! There was a place called Pier, nine or four or five canals, irrigation canals converged, and in that spot there was actually oil drums out there where people could leave their cans, or whatever, so it was a very well known spot to park in Smooch, or whatever and so That's kind of the the vision of what the spot is that they go to the back seat of her car. You know I mean I can't be the only one to feel this way because I grew up on your music. And I grew up again. Interesting while put, but to start with that kind of return, did the highschool smooching spot as it were right? Do something very fitting. About that, don't you think that everything comes from high school? Don't you think that we leave high school? Our trying to do is become a little more powerful a little bit more. But the truth is. We're still all in highschool. Emotionally I mean there is the old saying about Hollywood being like high school with money. You know that's true. I think rock and roll is high school. Money Really Oh, yeah. Well emotionally. I. Think the whole thing. Hollywood and rock and roll can be. Wow now that you mentioned. I have a theory about for instance Hollywood when you go to a set, which I did a lot. While was on vacation by the way because I love film, and I love directing and so many of my friends are directors, so been hanging out a lot of sets if you walk onto a set, what's fascinating is the food to Tana said. Is Children's food. It's are you. Able where there's always cookie. Donuts to. Its Children's food. It's like a dream. Come true kind of like candy store, so I think it's fulfilling this dream that you're living. The dream which starts with you can have anything you want. Almost like Pinocchio or they all go to the island where they can do whatever they wanna grow ears. You Know I. Really Think There's some truth to that, so there's never never land. Quality backstage can be the same by. Presumably along with the EMS have other. Things. You can have no sure backstage famously can be that way well. Let's talk about rock and Roll I. Want to go back to a moment. April twentieth seventeen the hall of fame induction. It was the first time some of US had seen you for a long while and I wanna go back to something you said in your induction speech talking about growing up. Being in Los Angeles in the mid seventies, going to see journey at the Starwood. Yeah, before you were a member of the band and I quote. Are you fucking shitting me. Any civil would give his asks for that Shit. I mean they played so well. Now. Steve Let me ask you a question. Okay, that's the way you wrote it out in advance. I was up there and I just kinda turned into Joe Patchy for a minute. Tell me a little bit about what it was like to see. Those guys at the Starwood when they were amazing. I mean it was greg. Rowley was Neal Schon. Ross Valerie Needs Dunbar I. Think George. Tickner at that point had already left the group. So that was the lineup. Now you know that the band was originally built around Neil Sean and the great roller used to pick him up in high school when he was like sixteen and brought him into Santana, so that when Greg? Brought Neo with him and they formed this group around Neil. So that was the beginning of journey, and I would see them play all the time and I knew people could get me backstage. I got hang around and meet him and just sort of like you know. Make my presence like high. You know they're thinking. WHO's big nosed kid, you know. What's he doing evacuated? All I know is I. Remember Star would like it was yesterday. I can see that stage in the corner. They would be just cranking and Neil would have one of these fender amps leaning back and he'd have one strap again to awhile up it'll you don't use the Wa Pedal Stroke Tony? He really didn't do a lot of my mom wants to. Use it to like have it. Screaming sponsor pulled back a second tone. Very very creative. His retirement sorel. Sanjay really was it was amazing. Chill when I got the call from Don Ellis who is running Columbia records at that time you love my demo. My Bass Player of the ban was in that he loved got killed a car wreck the fourth of July weekend. So the next thing I, know I. Get this call from Don Alice and he wants to know if I'm interested in a band. That's on the label. Sorry here. What happened your Bam? Journey's looking for a singer and they want to write songs and WanNa make musical change. That's exactly what I was told saucer movie. Yeah, okay, next thing I know I'm in Denver Colorado. Would Neil. Sean were rooming together after they opened Emerson like Palmer and we wrote patiently. That was our first. So Well. And that's the song that you sat down and wrote together because you had this other band. So I imagine you might have had some songs on your back pocket. Right? Did I had great source of my pocket, but they were not the kind of songs that journey was probably going to be good at writing playing just out of curiosity. What kind of songs were they up? You listen to my Steve Perry greatest hits album. You'll hear that demo. The Got Me Gingrich journey his on there. It's called if you need me, call me. She play that. And we will. Talk. Pay The truth. started. Does? If you need me. Call me is a song that was the first saw that got me the demo action with Columbia records, and that's the one that Herbie Herbert. The band's manager heard and convince them to fly me out to right with, so you flew out to right with them. They were already for e. l., p., yeah, and so you had yet to perform with them. You just sit down. It's literally after a show and you sit down to start writing. Just catching, just catching some ideas and I mean he had. These changes were just beautiful, so I started singing here stance. Oh patiently! Your to shine on me for your song inside of me this we bring to you. Just started to go, that's just came quick. If you listen to the lyrics, it's really a story about where I'm at at that moment talking to them about patiently waiting to join that bannered are to be under the lights that they were under for your lights inside of me this we bring to you, you know. When you were writing these songs that have never left the radio, did you know? No really no I think owning anyone can do. Is Chase after the honest emotion of making it the best, it can be just. Making it great and then turn it over and hoping that people get what you're trying to put into it. They all got that kind of concerted effort including. Don't stop believing that one didn't get any more than any of the other ones that there's so many other songs that I love just as much, but that one has been embraced by a large amount of people so when you came back. To recording when you came back to writing for this record winning and how did things start? Because you've been working on this? For a number of years, several songs were written the For you knew Kelly. While they were written before, I met Kelly, the to your Vicini is actually most of all and in the rain, and those are the two songs. I never played for because they they worry about loss, especially in the rain is about. Grieving. Energy into her struggle. She was already going plenty so. That was the only secret. I, wish you. He. After, I lost. Out On the hard drive. And decided they now are about my life after losing her. And I wrote them before I met her, so it was kind of an interesting bizarre thing, and so that's why they're on the record. Then I built a studio. And that took some time and get not dialed in the way I want. It took some time once that was up and running with the proper equipment. started recording so this home studio is something. You built to make this record, yes. And when you were recording writing demos before that I was recording approach tool rig on a laptop, but I had outboard gear I'm I as Mike, and I had an API recalled a lunch pail which has preempted E. Q. and A. compressor limiter in it, so I can go right in the into my computer, and so the vocals on this record, a lot of them are just some of the rough sketches. Because the first time I sang it, it had a magic to it, and then I started surrounding musicians around some of those vocals. Listen to this record. My first reaction was holy Shit it's Steve Perry. Again, it had been a minute, but the vocals who there there is a certain difference to them. You've got a little more wisdom in the vocals. Now they're a little worried, more grainy, a little bit more spicy. I think a little bit more soulful. I think a lot of ways. I gotTA. Tell you I think Patty. Jenkins is a big part of that. Who is one of my close friends and? I played her one of my early sketches. And I didn't know if she would like it or not, and I was afraid to play for anybody but her 'cause I trust her. She had seen me go through a lot. We were close friends. And so I played it for after we had lunch one day the car. And I looked out the window to laugh, because I didn't want to watch her reaction after it was over, I looked to the right, and I said. What do you think she said? I think it's amazing, as but the vocals are done, it's just there's lyrics I'm just mumbling this and that's that she's I. Know All that, but it just sounds so much like you, but it's exactly what I was I know, I know I guess. I had to turn all that thinking off because I was new for me to leave. If I was going to keep that going turn. What thinking off what do you mean? I guess to walk away from an amazing ride. And leave the group and look at anything that you're saying. I had to turn my heart off to keep walking away from the music business. Including the fact that people love me perhaps and I just couldn't look at like any relationship. You know if you're leaving a relationship. and. You need to leave even though it's. You love it, but it's painful. How many people done that? No matter what the relationship is, bands are no different relationship that relationship sometimes to walk away. You've got to keep walking. You can't fall back into it. In order for me not to fall back in at that particular time when I left, I had to turn the volume down my heart, but it's so interesting because I absolutely understand what you're talking about and at the same time when you leave a relationship. You don't always walk away from a relationship. Thinking that's it I can never have another relationship, but you left music and for a moment that was it. You couldn't hear it. Only because I was toast, I mean. I was so PTSD burnt that whenever I started getting back into music. I would twinge. You know had one. So when did that begin to change? In how couple years it took good two years, honestly two years out of of leaving the group I started to listen to music again and the music of my youth. And Radio again, and I know by then. By the way, Nirvana showed up. and. I'm going wow, good for you guys man. Now it's your turn, fantastic grandch- love, garage, man, go get it. Go get some, and so here came all be Seattle groups, so the music had turned another corner I was just happy for everybody and just thought well. I had my time now. They're having their. So, what began to draw you back into songwriting? I think that the passion for sketching some rough ideas. Cave me a moment occasionally where I go. Wow, that could be cool and I would do what I call going under where I wear the headphones and I turn the echoes up in very very large amounts to where I can just zone out. And pretend. There's a landscape of possibilities in my mind, and I just love some of the interaction of the harmonica changes, and my voice melodies, and see what actually becomes complementary to those and I listen, and I wait and I start to follow those little moments whenever they cross like that. That's started to feed me. Some hope possibilities that may be. I could ride some music again. What about performing? That's something we're gonNA. Talk about when I get back to west coast. right now. I'm just talking about this record and I'm so glad it's finally out. It's really been a long time common really to be honest with you, and that's the most powerful focus on my life right now. That I actually have completed something that there was a time I swore I'd never do again, and it's really crazy. Never say never sometimes be careful I gotta tell you Steve. We're so happy to have you back in were so happy to have you here inside the studio boy. It's been my pleasure. Thank you very much. Own. Inside the studio is an iheartradio original podcast. This episode was written in hosted by me Joe. With light to give a big. Thank you to Steve Perry. Fantasy records, you can follow inside the studio on Iheartradio or you can subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.