10 Episode results for "Joe Bernstein"

Ep 70: Understanding The Stories We Tell Ourselves w/ Joe Bernstein

The Super Human Life

1:17:25 hr | Last month

Ep 70: Understanding The Stories We Tell Ourselves w/ Joe Bernstein

"I created a life based on those beliefs. A- scarcely lovable being tracked being smart about myself. That twenty five years old his three hundred forty pounds. I went to college actually dropped out with this. Didn't believe i was a student. I found myself stumbling into a career with those corporation. You could work me sixty hours. I didn't have much of a personal life. So i was all about. I spent about five years in my twenties involuntarily just locked away my desire. Welcome to the night. Anger host frank rich. And this is the only podcast in the world dedicated to helping men break free from shepherds of addiction through the power of faith and fitness. It is with every episode. Help you take back control and rebuild your body mine and sphere and we do so by bringing real involved conversations with people just like you aiming to find a place in this world while dealing with the everyday struggles and battles that the all fits now. It is my belief that we raise specific purpose and if we can harness that belief or faith than take all of our mind and body for fitness then we can ultimately create the life that we've always dreamed about our own super human life. I wanted to let you know how grateful and blessed into having here with me today. Let's get onto today's show. What is going on everybody. Welcome back to another amazing episode of the superman life as always guys. I just wanna remind you how incredibly grateful and blessed. I have you here with me today. I'm your host frank rich in guys. We had a amazing incredible conversation Today's guests which gets you introducing him here in just a minute Was just a few weeks back by a friend of the show. Many of the guys know the teen coach. Chris wilson over there critical bench They had on his show in obviously kris knows the mission of what we're trying to do here. He's been a guest on on the show all the way back in episode. Three guys haven't done so yet. Make sure to check that out. So out but chris guessing and he spoke with our guests in. He's a hey. I think you're great for frank. And i looked into him and i was fascinated by his story. intrigued by the work. That he's doing and what he's putting out into the world. So i wish unless make this happen so Our conversation was A mix of you know me interviewing him me. You know really getting a chance to know him a little bit better. Because i didn't really know a lot about him. Outside of what i was able to find in just a couple of hours of preparation for the show but it really is a back and forth conversation. You guys know. I love having just those those conversations type of of interviews and in shows that's really what today is all about Before i get introducing a to you guys let me just remind you how you can help us you know. This show is driven by your support. This show is a service that we're trying to put onto the world. Really help you breakthrough bears in arrive to really help you take back control surfer getting value out of these stations. If they are speaking to you in having an impact in your life you can help us and support us in these two ways first and foremost whatever platform. You're listening on whether it's youtube apple. Google spotify wherever it is just hit that rating and these are written review. If you're getting value out of the show and more importantly if there's somebody in your life there's somebody that you know that needs to hear either. Today's message or any of the conversation that we've had over the last few months mixture shared this podcast with them. That will help it. Get into more people's ears get into people's lives and have a bigger impact on the world so with that in mind guys. Let me introduce our guests to you. His name is joe bernstein. Joe bernstein founded the the on wellness. Because he's on a mission help other mench feel the love and freedom that he learned to cultivate in his life when it fell apart all back in two thousand and thirteen after learning to thrive romantically in response to a divorce losing one hundred and sixty pounds without diets in leading his first career to build a mission focused. Business became lit up top. Other men. do exactly the same job. Clients are often times successful business owners executives in high tech leaders creative entrepreneurs personal growth junkies. They are big hearted men that often feel stuck in their heads stuck in their careers in his. Ira better health. That sound like a lot of you. Guys out there Now job health center. Let go the overthinking in the beginning you stress motivator beginning us fears a motivator. Was the big topic in our conversation here today to life rooted in a clear head and open heart in solid guts. So i think with that mind guys. I'm sure that introduction spoke to a lot of you so a lot of you that resonate with type of men that he's helping so make sure to stick around in our conversation real explores a lot of his pass. We go all the way back to childhood in in how much of his upbringing really begin to shape the stories that he told himself Shape the reality that he was creating in his own life it took some trials and tribulations and like we said some setbacks To really allow him to unlock his tools. Unlock his purpose in this world. So this is incredible conversation. God i hope you get so much out of this So before we move onto the conversation. I just wanna add one more thing here. You guys know that We are a faith driven show. You know. Christianity is one of the three categories that we are listed in Through our distribution with that in mind. I'm never opposed to having people on. I never post having conversations that may go against a little bit of my world view in may to go against a little bit With the way that. I see things so that in mind guys. I just want to prepare you that towards the end of the conversation Joe says something. That perhaps. Maybe i don't slightly agree one hundred percent with i struggled with removing this part from the show but my whole goal here. My whole focus is full transparency. It's full vulnerability. And i wanna give the guest. I wanna give the people that i bring on an opportunity to really share themselves really share everything. That's going on in their life and everything that they see So i just wanted to to set the precursor there that there is something that's shared towards the end That i don't fully agree with and that's in has that doesn't change the way that i view our conversation. That doesn't change the way. That i view joe. It was amazing to get to know him a little bit. it was. I is a relationship. That i think is going to manifest over the next couple of months and years and i'm on incredibly grateful to have the chance to speak with him and really looking forward to what else he's gonna put onto the world. He's definitely somebody that i'm gonna keep my eyes on. I just wanted to share that small bit before we jump into this conversation guys so we let everything in there. I haven't altered in any way. I just want to set at precursor. Because i know many of you identify yourself as christian many of you identify yourself as a faith so when you hear that Just know that this is what. I'm talking about so without further ado guys. Let's get into today's conversation with none other than joe bernstein understanding the stories we tell ourselves. Let guys hope you enjoy so joe my brother. You know it's. I haven't started a podcast. This question in a really really long time but when i look at you and for those of you that are on the audio. You're going to check out the video. Go check out Joe social after this. Podcast i need to know the story with the beard because man did not have a beard on the space That nature without a story behind it interesting. Oh wow i gotta make up a story for my peter. So there's is something to that right to that the about to that about past identity current identity. i is. We'll probably break into a lot of my time hiding. I spent a lot of my time very heavy very very big body hiding my motions hiding my desires and soon as i could grow facial hair i mean literally fifteen do just. The beer could grow at the medicine can strap and then but there was something to that. There was something to always desiring some sort of facial cover. Because i had the extra chin stuff you know that people would make fun of and hetty so that being said i remember when i really was digging in and learning to lose weight to expose make myself on rable to women to connect with myself to understand by versions and understand my you know nervous system i did. I want one point. I was like when i hit two hundred twenty pounds shaved this thing. Ceo actually look. I shaved it. And i thought i had a face but i was like no. I'm a facial hair guy so so literally. During that time. I was still a store. Manager retail store manager for boats. I love disney first career until i burnt out fell apart and i started my coaching practice. But i can really keep it. An advocated reasonable. I had to keep it professional as soon as i quit. Said you know what. I'm getting out of this like corporate employment stuff of good work for myself. It was almost like a game. I'm like i'm gonna see how crazy i can walk and how crazy my beer to get so that year. My beard just got i learned this about your. It doesn't get any longer than this. It just starts growing sideways and so there was a point where i didn't i didn't trim it or anything like six or eight months and it just looked crazy like a little bit of a homeless. Look but i smell so. That's a little bit of story behind the beard. Otherwise i just enjoy it. I really feel it looks good on me. A blessed to have a lot of the like color. Different colors whitehead. Yeah that's as it has some dynamics in personality there in. I don't know if you went back. And you know you mentioned listen to You know one of the episodes the original photo. You know still the branding that we're using is is of season in in my life where i had a very similar shape to miami. Might have that same thing would get to a certain length and then it kinda would flare out get this kind of curling effect. It would start to kind of blow in the wind and office thing But i resonate so so much in in. I'm so glad you kind of you know you hit on a few things. They are with with identity. And you know the shield in in in you know kinda kinda false trying to cover things up. And i think you know in in doing doing the worked at a preparative similarities kind of in both of yours and mine story so i appreciate you sharing that kind of just a fun way to kinda kinda kick it off without a few guests that have had pretty monumental beard so thought it'd be a nice way to kind of kind of lightning light it up a little bit but i think you know for for you. You know it's interesting because people on here you kinda you kinda see people. Doing you made this massive career shift you mentioned the vos you know store manager and and now you're running coaching practice. No lifetimes when you see people That are doing the type of work that you're doing that are that are really no building. Try building a community of manage. No really helping them kind of step into their own best version or whatever whatever. Your terminology is that that use a lot of that as a result of that that don't man's journey you know what what we're doing here is is a result of transformation in my life so you know sometimes it took a point you know. Maybe in their twenties maybe in their thirties. Maybe it was even later in life with that for you. I knew your store starts all the way back at the beginning So why don't we kind of go there. You know we kind of go back to you. Know you know the upbringing of joe And then one thing. I want to really hit on and i've heard you talk a little bit about is how your upbringing. How you're kind of gaming dynamic kind of shape this story that you begin to tell yourself so. No maybe take us back there in in in in through this. There'll be kinds. I probably interject in you know. Try to pull out some nuggets. Yeah let's go back to joe and you know like i said it was kind of kind of focus on the environment that you begin kind of shape that story because i think it's so important you know because we all have this story that there's a story that were actually living. You know what is actually taking place in in reality but then we have this kind of false story many times kind of going on inside our own heads In under for you you know a big part of what you don is really breaking breaking that false belief that was that was going on inside of you eat instead it with with the beard thing here like you always had this kind of false identity of who you are so yeah. That's another talking here. So joe take us back to the beginning and We'll make this thing a lot of fun here. I appreciate that because you know what stories we tell about ourselves or what stories you tell about. People are starting to tell about the world. Really have a deep impact on us. You know i just wrapped up with a client. Today don't six months and He loosened when most powerful things he got was he now recognizes all the patterns. He created it as life. Based on the stories he was telling himself and he can own choice the moment of choice where he. Here's the story in his head and decides it's not true and decides to take a different action. Usa feel like that is power owning our story knowing. My story is like really. It's so many people story mine just manifested my version right so we go back. I grew up in the eighties. Nineties middle-class. I had a dad who worked out of poverty. He grew up in brooklyn like nothing. You know and found himself in a good government job making six figures taibbi and my sisters were born but his whole world was still based in that that growing up in poverty and scarcity engines like never enough time never enough money. Every opportunity was met with all the reasons why we can't embodied that now. Meanwhile my mom's just like she's just pure love to this day dislike like if you're on her right now she would tell you a million reasons spectacular and how you're so handsome and you're just like she's just pure law mom energy but she's also really based features left year and scarcity to love is important your valuable but the world that they're not safe so i'm buying a lot of messages about like the world's not safe you staff to shoot watch when i go down to my friend's house three doors down in a very very very safe suburban neighborhoods and headache call related. Couldn't just rome. So basically. I had all the privilege in the world came to like material. Things didn't want anything but there was a lot of fear scarcity and anxiety and stress in my family and my parents just never learned Emotional tools and techniques that we get today like my generation our generation gets today and so they often just at each other's throats all that scarcity turn into bickering turned into fighting turned into emotional. Violence never any physical violence. My family and how. I handled it and really how we all handle it like. We're not we're not addicts. Nutritional sense known in my family has been addicted to drugs alcohol gambling but we became addicted to comfort seeking. I became addicted. To comfort seeking again addicted to using food to soothe my emotions to sue the feelings of powerlessness and fear scarcity. And i use tv video games in any way to check out for my reality so the time i was young you didn't like four or five years old. I was already a heavy kid. I was already overweight. Doctors would call me obese. Which had me now in a home environment where they're scarcity everywhere. Nothing is safe. Never enough time energy. Your money and i was teased every single day. Whether it be kids on the you know out on the playing field if you will whether actually coaches and teachers there's a lot of weight there probably still today plenty more back in the eighties. So keys made to feel different or less than by people. Even you know who are supposed to be wall model roles leadership roles adults in my life and so i then took on all those messages. And so i find that. Having a few learning disabilities but be too prideful to take the accommodations. Identifies another thing. That was wrong with me. So now i have recipe were like i'm always different. Always see for being the fat kid or the slow kid and not athletic. Nasr learnings abilities. So i am not smart. Not traditionally the academe. You don't fit still. Don't today so i had all this idea. That can't be good school. You're not faster athletic. you're not attractive. They'll never be attracted to women by the way. Love is full of toxic emotional energy. Anyway it's like the belief system. So i just limit myself. I was a guy who literally in my teens remembered. Consciously know people talk about unconscious beliefs. I consciously remember thinking like well. Why should i go to college. I'll never never do good in college. So i'll never have a good job on ever make much money. Never be happy of this. Have some mediocre career. I remember thinking like no woman. Ever like the of dignity known woman would add or good enough to be connected to be attracted to be sexual with so i really hit my zeier. Believe i'd ever have a good life when it came to love sex and relationship. And i thought i just always be obese. I just always the peace over three hundred pounds multiple times in high school. I played sports over like three hundred. Fifteen pounds one summer. And then i'd play football wrestle eddie. Down to fifty mother next summer gained back. So so that was the basis of my life. And i basically created light based on those realities and now of course. There's the whole thing which. I'm sure we wanna talk about which is like what change what triggered the change transformation. What happens that now. I'm a coach. And i help people change my life but like we slow down there and and just see how that lands for. You will question you have at this point for move until the next level. Yeah journey nope no. That's that's that's that's great We're definitely going to definitely gonna continue continued us all. But there's there's a few things. I really want to kind of pick apart there You know you talked about kind of your thinking. Always always being obese. Was this kind of the the norm within your family like everybody. You know maybe not obese but but slightly overweight me talked about your your family. Come from food. you know. Alcohol addiction drug addiction gambling addiction sex addiction. Not any of the typical dixon's when you really begin to kind of look at the research a type associated with addiction food addiction. Isn't everyone addiction in in in the world you know and and how you know certain foods on these comfort foods at that you probably were were eating. It has kind of same triggering fire in those dopamine responses that you get in your brain so many times. We don't correlate it with it because you know food is something you just walk into a grocery store and buy so. It's like we're not really you know. Many people don't really see it in in in the same winds but just last eighteen months in a really diving deep into how the brain works. So was that just kind of enormous with everybody raji. Like you know you'd be at home or you'd be at a family gathering you're looking around like all my family just kind of more round than everybody else you know. That's something i dealt with like. I i you know we were talking about you. Know arno of Before you know before we we we started here. And you know i i would see. I would see guys like arnold in the magazine around the guys you know. This is back in the ninety s as well. I think we kind of grew up in the same era. You know this is when espn was was. You know broadcasting the olympia They had a lot of workout so coming onsite. See these guys within be my females. I we're just a little bit more around so maybe were just. Maybe we're different like i. Didn't you know as a young kid like you don't really understand so. Was that kind of the seen the same for you just you. You're living in this environment where everybody was just acceptance of being being not fat. But i don't know that's a password. I feel you on this question. Yes and no so. This is a complex one right so my immediate family. I have two wonderful sisters younger sister. An older sister My parents still together. God blessed this day late and we were all we were all heavy. I was the if you were like compared to other people my age i was probably myself now that being said i saw pictures all the time with my parents growing up. They weren't heavy till they had kids. My grandparents will but none of them were heavy until late life. So there is this powerful situation that happened because happening a lot of homes growing up their scarce. Come from jewish heritage. I come from families that didn't have much and then within a generation or two we had enough and so we're in this place of wow there's abundance of food meanwhile the seventies eighties nineties where food chemistry was going crazy and there was all these new ways of having cheap easy non nutritional dense calories meanwhile the health fad the fitness. She was getting but wild. Same time to pretty unregulated stores today but but at the same time. So here's what was happening. We were like an acceptance of this identity of our family has had you know. Our family is heading but we had this dueling consciousness of like. Yeah let's go to the chinese buffet because for thirty five bucks. My dad was always worried about money. Could feed the all family but then at home we were on slimfast. We were doing tight. Now what's the tai bo tapes and richard simmons and lean cuisine. And we try to act. I people to act or being like twelve and i was like i just lost. Fourteen pounds eating bacon sheets like what does that about within a gain of back so we can also be the most positive memories. I have big family. Jewish holiday meals for my grandmother mcgregor. Another could cook bakes and we. We rattled in food and we enjoyed it and we saw ourselves as identity of being overweight. Also always battling it to also always each shame about it too also always in this place of trying to change it but then not really having the capacity. Dig into the roots of like. Why is it that we're drinking a slimfast at home. And then downing three thousand calories china affect you know so. That's a really powerful complex question. I do mostly coaching with men. These days i do what. I what i call information from consumer to creator from consuming an okay or kind of a boring life to a little. Fuck up life right. So i do. Large-scale life coaching from that basically who want more passion or excitement when it changed the way they have been relationship career but i started after lost all the weight. Because that's part of it. We've you get to this part. I went through divorce. I lost one hundred pounds. I realized my career passionate about stale on it. It was time to change and do something to help people. But i you know i started out thinking well. I lost all this weight when i stopped trying to. It was when i started focusing on my emotions. When i started started focusing on by beliefs when i finally gave myself a chance to believe that i could have love and excitement and joy when it comes to dating and sexuality a doodle this inner work and that motivated me to take care of my body my spirit my mind and the way starts coming off so i thought i was going to cure the world of obesity and so i am training and eating psychology coach. Actually our certification so it's so complex our relationships with our relationship with body. And it's something that you know. Hint hint dudes women have been in the state of working on this in some way shape or form whether it be healthier unhealthy relationship to body relation food for a long time. We have a lot of work to do there. I have plenty of clients and you look at them. You're like their fit and they're like to. But for whatever reason i binged or for whatever reason i i look great but i can't i look in the mirror and all i see. Is this little bill belly you know. And so we have a low minimum opportunity to work around identity around food a relationship to body etc. I went off on like seven. Tangents really beckoned. No that's going to resonate so much with that. I mean it's something you see you see You know. It's been a decade in competitive bodybuilding Space you know competing getting prepping people show and that's something you see. You know you'd talk you. Di di di di for sixteen weeks you get to the end of the show and then you know waiting for you the minute you walk you know you walk off. The stage is entire boxes donuts. And it's like you. Almost you know you reward yourself to train yourself in in seen that happen so many times Resonates so much with that that that store their like the the chinese Buffet like we had a I wouldn't call it a prayer because there was no real association to you. Know spirituality or or any higher grown up but there was times my dad would know before we eat. He would say this little thing and it always ended with the fastest one eats the most and conditioning part of like. Wow like our goal is when route to eat. Eat the most like okay. Like i'm gonna turn into a competition in it carried into my twenties. I mean there were times. Like i don't know if you remember all garden these endless Possible thing i would gather with my buddies and we would put money down the table like who can eat the most pasta It would be crazy. We would throw it out. Six seven eight deposit to the point where literally you felt like adiga with a hospital so i resonate resonate so much with there i want. I want to get back to you You're you're working coaching. And this identity stopping you know. Continue on with the story but there is one more thing that really jumped out at me. in in your upbringing i think it can resonate so much with today in kind of the times that we're living in you know you talked about kind of you know you're this kid had been surrounded by fear you know f- scarcity mindsets It was just something that was kind of. It wasn't your year can because you know it's like we're we're scared of you know the monster underneath the bed we're not really scared at the world around us But if you can't maybe you know like because we're going to have to parents listening and honestly we're living in a crazy time. I won't take this conversation to off track But but but we do see a kind of a lot of fear. Just kinda take it. You know. Just really manifesting itself in the world. I don't want you know. We don't really need to get into opinions of mass in a vaccine. Because i think no matter who we are we can agree that that the world is living in fear right now so maybe just talk to perhaps the parents that are out there you know. It doesn't matter if the kid is to five ten or fifteen how they just maybe need to be aware of how you know their own. Fear is going to impact their their children. Because i think from personal security. That's such a great question I've had a lot of clients that our parents don't have kids yet. I started late. I was married. And we didn't wanna have kids. And i got divorced thirty one and took me a few years even realize like i want children. You know i'm with my partner now and we're building a life and we're ready to rock soon but so don't i wanna i wanna practice. That is i. Don't wanna give parenting advice. But i can tell you this from what i've learned about human beings what i've learned about people's development of our belief systems and what i've learned about patterns and our habits one thing that i'd love to see more people do whether this be in our relationships between partners or between business partners between friends or especially from parent child is for human beings all of us parents who ever to learn to understand our own fear and to own our fear rather than projecting it and placing all of our fear based beliefs on other people aka. Your kids your wife your boss. You know your friend right so as a parent my aim. When i'm a parent is going to be like to really get in touch with the belief systems that i have generate fear with the scarcity thinking that a cousin a human being because we're hardwired for safety security acceptance love belonging which actually needs fair every emotion. I talk about every emotion is imprinted. It's hardwired into our dna for reason. It's part of our survival so to get to understand way. We operate around fear. What are my tendencies around. Fear or my false beliefs around your. What do i do in relationship. When i'm in fear. How do i learned to expose myself and my vulnerability so that i'm not just printing it upon my child on my from my wife you know. So essentially here's an example right and this will really resonate for dudes in relationships with women. I saw my partner is going through some health stuff and like early in our dating. She had a really top health crisis. And we'll go into the details because that's her alright but about a week ago. She was like yeah. Maybe i can push back this. Because other thing and i started china reason with her and convince her to why. That's not a smart idea. And that's not a sound idea what could happen in ultimately i had to slow down and i just check myself and i stopped. I said actually abiola what you do. You want your grown ass woman. And i trust you but the truth is i'm terrified. At the idea of yucatan terrify. It scares me and that being said do what you need to do. So i do believe that if more partners more parents learn to own their fear without seeking other people how to behave so that they're responding and i want you to so i'll be less afraid because that's what we do. That's what my parents did. That's what they still do. I could call my mom right now. One of the podcast like she would find a way to take takes. She's afraid of and massage it as like teaching. Something is giving me guidance. You know so we do that. I hope that make does that. Make sense as far as life. So what i was even people learn about your own your favorite learn to express it a conscious way. So it's not dif- leaking out sideways as objective realities children. Yes so i mean just maybe kind of kind of even died in a little bit deeper there in kind of kind of drive home and maybe give you know somebody listened. Kinda got an aha moment like fear kind of control my life like how can we. You know maybe learn more about our fear you know without without kind of over psychoanalyzing yourself you know. Is it a You know You have any tips in in in tackle strategies that you work with your clients and identifying where the root cause of the fear is coming from and then how to kind of get through it concrete work through it use it as more of a motivating factor. 'cause i believe fear can actually be a very strong. You know driving force of of of motivation. Wanting i have you know my clients to You know early on in in in our province. It's it's it's we you know very similar to you know i. I look at myself as more to life coach and just you know peer addiction recovery. So i to help you kind of paint division You we're kind of trying to reset this this reward center. If you have a that we're working towards we had a goal. We can move towards going to help us kind of reset our dopamine but in in doing that we want to have the vision of where we're going but i want you to kind of understand like if you don't get your act together you continue down pat. How bad kennedy. So i had them write out a you know if i fail you know life you know five years down the road if i don't get my act under control if i don't you know stop this compulsive or dictate behavior with pornography. This is run gonna lead you because it's not just you know way on that right now because it's going to continue to compound you look at any addiction. It's always got the escalation of sex. So so what do you do with know in your life to to identify feared the root of where it's coming from and then kinda maybe tactical strategies to work through it. Since i work with men. And i worked at a lot of men that identifies like really smart intellectual. Hetty kind of guys. I would raise my hand. Say over thinker and they are too usually by default. A couple of things are gonna show up first of all. I like to do some intellectual teaching. About what fear is an all the different language that we use to not just say that were anytime. You're moving fast unless it's in an athletic competition. There's there's an opportunity right that slowdown. What are you afraid of happening losing. If you don't fuchs view slowdown right. So where are you moving fast. Where are you procrastinating. We don't just magically procrastinate. There's some outcome of the action that we're afraid of. These are all ways you can look like fear showing up whenever you say. I'm really stressed about tried to sing. I am afraid. Cause stress is actually the physiological response to fear So when you say. I'm worried or i'm concerned. All these things that we've been taught to massage language to fit into like the corporate world into not look vulnerable right to be nacho or masculine like that were still allowed to have just check them and recognize. Let's a fear like that's a natural human experience and understand. I try and do the teaching really early with people's like what is each primary emotion or looking at fi- primary motions joy anger fear. Shame guilt sadness six. They're they're chanting. Guilt can hang out together but Essentially we look at them. We break down. What is the message behind it. What does the meeting behind. So fear is very simply a perception of friend evidence appearing real false evidence appearing real. So can we learn that. That's actually a really good thing. That we were taught keeps us keeps alive if we don't have fear done right. So here's a good thing. It's our allies friend. Can we understand it. Annual intellectual level because dude loved understand stuff in intellectual level. And then i start to look at with people are right so now you know. Where does it show up in you and your body right hard. That took me years of doing personal growth. Integrate work to be able to understand the embody reaction. Here a lot of us. It's going to show up right in the stomach. Right under the solar plexus some people it might show up like you know the back of their neck or their head or whatever but like. Can you start to do so. I'll take someone through a process of like think of a time that you were really pissed off. She's really live at about something. Close arrived scenario intimate a little bit. Inevitably you start to feel. Where's it show up where to sphere. Show up your body so those are some of the things that i do What someone could do without having a coach in front of them and that's having someone guide them is just walk through your day and which on your on one of the no pets found every time you say to yourself. I'm really stressed really worried or every time you find yourself moving fast engines examples go ahead and just not like. That was a situation that out there. So so those are some examples I love things like the theor inventories as time out. You know your deepest the're list and what if the fear comes true to life etc so those are the things that i think are really important that we could do these. These lists of fears go back process experiences. Where hey any launch human being would have been afraid but you told yourself you weren't afraid i mean there's so many ways but but some of the basics are just learn what it is on it understand where shows up in your body learn the language use. See you don't have to say i'm afraid. Yeah no that's great. You just just just bring it back to to kind of where it started here with the language in in in stories that we tell you know In being able to look at you know a sense of fear or you know as as more of a trigger of hey. Maybe there's something i need to kind of you know explore a little bit deeper work on like i believe many times like something that we're afraid of or fearful. That's the opportunity. I mean it's it's it's it's it's gonna show itself under story. You're like you know this this this this fear of who knew who could potentially be you know. In in manifest itself in weight gain so Bringing it back to kind of where we saw we went in. We went off on a couple of tangents here. But i think it kind of it. We we kinda kept things moving here in the same direction. So you know you briefly glossed over. It landed amazing job. You know working working in the corporate retail space with those you know you went through this dramatic way chain so so take us you know kinda if if you can you know not taking too much time. Let's bridge the gap from the upbringing to fear based identity to kind of losing control. Not really having a sense of purpose really thinking gonna be able to accomplish anything to was there. An aha moment you know. Was there a single defining moment in your life was a series of events was a key mentor. Kind of you know. Maybe maybe take us through that. And then we're going to get more into kind of what you're doing here with withdraw armor. Yes so essentially. What happened to me. Was i created a life based on the beliefs that were all based on scarcity being lovable and not being attracted not being smart. I found myself at twenty five years old. I was three hundred forty pounds I went to college. I applied to colleges. That really wasn't jazzed about college. But where i came from either were dominant to the military offensive military price. The smartest people. I've ever met nowhere in the military. That was the bowl. Bullshit culture my of my reality grownup up. It's like oh if you're not intellectual you go into the military or you do some sort of handyman job or you went to college. So i applied to colleges. I went to university for a couple of years and just live live that life. I eventually dropped out. 'cause i just didn't believe i was a student. I found myself. It's stumbling into a career with those corporation right place right time. I was really gifted at presenting demonstrating gifted at sales. And before i knew it. They grew into management again by the time. Twenty five twenty six. I'm running multi-million dollar store chabosy and i loved it out. I mean you could work sixty hours a week. I didn't have much of a personal life. So i was all about and i love the values and the mission of the company. So something even some the do something good excel. And i spent about five years in my twenties involuntarily celebrate on a date. I was afraid to talk to women. Just didn't even know. I just it just locked away my desire and i shut that part of myself down. Just focus on work but you know at a certain point. I decided i gotta be something so online. Dating was new. You know back in the day so the story goes like i stumbled into a much better life than i thought i could have. I met someone through online dating. We got married. We both had good incomes. we traveled. Well we ate. Well you know joy. We foster kit old thing that we did so here. I am in this life. Where i'm like or what life turned out better than i gave myself a chance to have. But what happens when you stumble into a good life or what happens when you follow missile. Most guys will do they follow the path. They were told they needed to go to school. Do well be a nice guy cena right dick's where the tie where the suit you know. Make sure you get pluck your nose hairs do all the things you gotta do to society and you find yourself in something that feels stale. I found myself in something. That was better than i thought i could have. But it happens to guys find themselves in lies. They think you're supposed to have you'd have a multimillionaire business that he thought you're supposed to do that. Wasn't truly based on your values your serving other people's belief systems. And what you do in those scenarios is once you get to a place of comfort. I a lot of people do this. Hold on for dear life. don't take any. I wasn't taking any risks. I wasn't being honest a lot of time with my ex wife. The white at the time. I never really stated by desires all about pleasing and placating her and in a very needy way always wanting her to be happy and trying to do everything i could to make her happy but not the same thing at work iran these stores. I was the one who scheduled myself but at the end of the day. I felt like prioritize else's needs. I had to be the one to take care of everybody. So here i am holding on for dear life trying to look like i know what i'm doing all the time at work trying to just not rock the boat at home. We got ourselves into a pretty rough situation. We we struggled in that relationship and so the four. I knew it had health crisis has had like three or four kidney stone needed to have a surgery it was a miserable two thousand twelve. I realized that. I stopped going promotions in my job. I got myself no place. We bought a condo right next to my store walk to work. It was a comfortable position. I didn't have to expose my weaknesses. Didn't have to put myself out there and do all the things. I wasn't good at lauren and grow any further. Because i was really comfortable and so it comfortable at work on marriage is a kind of a mess and having this health crisis i realized i don't want the next job. I realized i don't know if i want to do this anymore. Do for the rest of my life and then unlocks my my partner at the time to go you know. I haven't been happy for a long time when out the door. So the catalyst was all those things career health. My marriage falling apart very rapidly appeared about four months by the time she walked through the door and said. Hey i'm done. I wanna divorce. We've been in couples therapy something starting to shift from me. Once i got therapy i never been there before. She gave us books to read early. Five love languages and a fellow the classic relationship books. I was fascinated by that stuff. Just like i was fascinated by the psychology of sales in psychology leadership. Which is what made me a good at my work. And so essentially. I just got the bug. She walked in. I was devastated. She said she wanted to divorce at something had changed in me. I saw the opportunity to learn. Had been relationship. And i started going down the rabbit hole. I started learning everything. I could about mind body connection and our stress our nervous system and about attraction about sexuality which led me to men's work which led me to spirituality which let it just became this. I i had consume everything i could about personal growth and so before i knew it i was on the other side of huge transformation in a year i was happily divorced dating multiple women that were out of my league with competence with power with integrity. I had lost net year about one hundred pounds. Truth was already lost about forty fifty pounds because my ex wife taught me how to cook taught me how to eat local and taught me how to eat. Organic cells are starting to lose weight and finally at the divorce within about a week. Said you know what you can take responsibility for your life. You can change the way you show up all the beliefs being stuck in stagnant. Just this is. I am had dissolved and it was like look. I didn't give myself a chance to have a great life. I found myself in a pretty comfortable which is better than i thought have. Now it's all falling apart. I can either go down the rabbit hole of failure negatively and dislike believing that this is what meant for or i can give it a shot. I can go after it. There's nothing left to lose. Basically what happened. And so. I decided like i'm gonna go after it. I'm going to transfer my body. i'm gonna find love. I'm gonna find some social life and some power which led me to the point where after losing hundred fifty pounds a totally different person that came to love women at saks and really being a high when it came to like understanding how we operate. I just woke up one day. It was like this doesn't happen by accident. This happens for a reason this year. Says i gotta help other dudes the truth. Rank was the stuff i learned it. Wasn't that complicated. It was just about doing hard work and being consistent. And so i i just it hit me. Like people. aren't teaching us how to be happy. People are have healthy. People aren't teaching us how to embody your sexuality really live into that do well in relationship. It's all out there. There's coaches there's authors. There's teachers leaders teach this stuff so badly one day says i got to be one of them and Saved up quit my job sold on this stuff like got my living expenses really small saddam figuring this out no matter what i gotta help people so it's six years ago. The transformation started in in two thousand twelve so it was about a two year process for you to kind of go through your own personal transformation lose away. I'm sure there was obviously some time spent you know you don't want to be launching the business while you're kind of deal with the legalities of a divorce. I'm curious what were you know. You mentioned the five leveling which is what. We're maybe some of the other kind of kind of men's men's workbook I'm sure you're familiar with dr robert. Dr robert levers work nice guys finish last or no more mister nice guy. I'm sorry we had. We had robert on a few episodes back. And as you're kind of explaining you know going to work in a put everybody else. I and i'm coming home and trying not to make happy. It's like nice nice. It's just kind of all this kind of bells. Bills went off consuming. I got so many messages about that. that episode. It's like that's me. I didn't even realize it so You know i'm i'm sure robert was was was some of the initial working. What were some of the other men's worked at you. I i found myself Dignity nice guy doing every single one of the practices very early in that process. There's no question. Now is an important book in my life and really what i did do was i. I did a read a lot of books. Just bow humans and our emotions and our bodies for people who are into the to Food and nutrition the powerful book by mark david. He has a nursing wisdom in the slowdown diet. Greek books about a relationship with student body more recently. Actually i know that this is just mentioned on one of the recent episodes but in the past few years. Read a really transformational book on every man in the world to read in most women and most not buyer people caught fire in the belly by sam. I actually think that now that i've done a lot of work on myself in many many ways. One of the most powerful books i've ever read about men was by a woman is by women in bell. Hooks called the wealth change which is a really laboratory approach to men and our emotions. Our souls spirits. Those are some powerful books. I mean there's so many a book that i really use a lot in my work with people. These days is the empowerment dynamic. The power of the impounded anti david emerald. It's really about how to transform being caught in victim consciousness or the drama triangle and turning it into empowerment shifting from victim or what. I like to talk consumer today. Most of us are more consumers than we are. Victims into creator had stopped. Be a perpetrator and looking for perpetrators and see challengers be at challenger at stopped finding people who who who went to rescue you where you're going rescue people in the rescue and find coaches or coach people. So that's a huge. I love that book. it's so simple. It's so powerful. There's just of the ones that come up. Yeah no that's great. No in in in s guys will get all of those books mexican as we do on every single show. Listen down down in the show notes. one thing. I want to make sure we. We hit on. Because i mean i could. I could list. You know hundred books that that every guy should read but reading and doing are two different things. So i know this is something i've heard you talk about as well. It's like you know. You don't want to just i don't think it's what you're saying when going from consumer to creator but you know i i feel sometimes this this is happening in my life. No really for probably a seven year stretch just became this consumer of information and knowledge. I was like i you know i. I felt if i was going to that. I was going to the seminar like that. That was me winning. If i was reading a book like ten pages a day like journal. I was like okay but then i never actually actually applied any of the learnings or any of the knowledge. That was. That was gaining. So if you can't speak to you know obviously consuming but but the need of implementing what we're learning. Yeah we'll consumption is a part of life You know. I think most of us were or unconscious with how we consume so the key is to get conscious with how consume and when it comes to personal growth work i see a little bit are type. C dudes who we wanna be all up in our heads. You know my work. I talk about my trying to leave. Men do place of clear head and open heart and a solid guts. A lot more work. Isn't it guts in the heart but it isn't head from using head our whole lives so there is a shift that needs to happen. You know. I see one of my coaches trip. Linear is also got really cool. Podcast in a good book man trickling here check out you know he coined the phrase coined or if i just got it from him. Which is the personal growth. Jonky the guy who turns his addictions personal addictions. I got a girl gonna change all the time which is a beautiful place. But when it's all about consuming information or not creating transformation knowledge turns into wisdom. We take that knowledge and we take consistent action to create. Change our lives and so. That's a huge thing is it forgot an. I'm talking literally talking to you. These are all my clients is this. I can be when i get unconscious. If you're in a thought where you keep going to the seminar going to your men's group going to your therapist reading the next book listening to all the podcast like you are right now and you're like hey but really changed. Marley show my body or know. What ab- stealing that data job. I'm still still not up to my boss or but me and my my wife my partner. We're still not getting on as much as one two or a dating. Just find myself in this place. Where i get close to someone back away right because of intimacy. If you're not changing the patterns in your life there is a need to do more creation were more action work more implementation or integration work and less the consumption worth. Their guys were literally make an agreement work of me. I needed the first two months and shut off the podcast. Stop reading books. You're going to do the work of messenger journal. Journaling do the experiments you'd hard conversations. You're going to do the meditation and workout. You're gonna do. Instead of laura right and learning as powerful it is transformative. We have to implement to create if take action to create that to me. Is the part a lot of people. Don't take enough action. They wanna consume that. We're going to the next dance to looking for the next easy peace information that will change their world. I've had those michigan breath and slow down on this one but ultimately it's really going to be about if you read a book read one chapter. Do something do something. That's why people the coaches average person. They're going to read the book and they're going to be inspired and they're gonna talk about it and they're gonna understand it election and they're gonna feel as ego hit when they're like in talking to their buddies are also the personal rose. Dr glover. yeah. I learned this covert contracts But ultimately it's gonna take support from other people good men's group therapists good coach pushy. To say what are you gonna do to expose your cover contracts this week. What are you gonna do take action to start moving towards quitting the sugar addiction. Quitting the smoke. Starting your meditation practice and for all of us is next for me. There's always the next level for us an excellent. That's why we we have coaches still and why we're in group programs and why we have you know meetings that we go to whatever it is community so that we involve are involved in because it takes human beings to help push us conference on against the next level eater absolutely. Yeah no. I'm gonna steal that one part there from you from from your coaching. You know cut off all the other consumption of information you can listen to my podcast cousin. You know it's it's a lot of this is built into no there's parts of yours and is conversation that will be taken into my coaching program. But slowly i was having a conversation with a client. this is probably going back to weeks now. He was early. Use fresh in it and you still struggling. He's like yeah. You know like struggling with doing the work. But then i'm watching these videos on no fat and i'm like why are you watching any more videos like i. I'm laying out the system for you here right now. Like he was just he was approached by analysis like he wasn't doing our work. Because you know in. It's not that you know. Maybe the message was was contradictory. I don't know but you know like it somewhere. There was up there. There was a disconnect from what he's watching this video that maybe had i don't know how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of users like this. A lot of people are watching this in in frank. You're not really saying the same thing over here. So he's not taking action on my work with. He's not really taking action on this work because he paid me in. It's like that's why you're still kind of struggling with the same problem. Had since since the beginning. So that's that's that's that's that's that's nassar. They're in bugs and really keeping going on there. It's go ahead. you're gonna say the key point. I still wanna hear. That was just great hitting on you know hitting on your ability and hitting on hitting amity and being in those environments and having the support You know having a support is one thing that's group having accountability is is another thing. Your group doesn't really hold you accountable. The accountability gotta come from their time. Maybe no little bit. You talked about you. Having you know coach i count. Ability comes when there's something. That's actually at risk of losing. Like if i if i joined this program if i pay if i put skin in the game you know Dr meltzer dini talks about the importance of investing in something in his book influence. But you gotta you know either by a program paige coach or one thing. I'd give you know if you're not gonna hire coach stroke at checkout to charity that you don't support in the minute that you slip on your own actions mail it out. That battle hurt really hard So no i just wanted to cut touch touch on any kind of intini there but what. I wanted to do really quickly as well as like. I'm pretty tense. Repre- intense we've to have we do our work obviously and i even laughable that when you described the guy it's like when actually wanna do right now it's pause speak to people who are in that pattern and actually have compassion and say i get a been there. We all do it someplace. The reality is that's not your fault you've been conditioned to lur- into base your identity having the right answer and on taking in information and you'd also been conditioned to do enough to feel like you're making some kind of change but still stay comfortable still safe off that guy you described. That's a learned pattern. Men are always taught. Will you have to actually disprove. What other men believe. He's in a pattern of unhealthy mock masculinity or competitive nestle. Whatever it is going like. Hey will hard scott healthy. But i'm still gonna go ahead and taking more information rather than dude i'm still gonna go ahead and try and find holes in his theory. 'cause that's been taught to do is now with each other is compete rather collaborate to challenge rather than trust right and so i just wanted. I just wanted to put that out there like dude. You're listening you're you're definitely listening like it's okay. It's okay no need to shame yourself for being that but it might be time for change. Might be time for change and so so. That's just important. A big part of work. I do is like gotta look at how we release the shame and negatively and guilt for being where where to say. Forgive yourself for how long its taken you to get here for how much further you still have to go. No matter where you at your at your has really important to creating change is to come from a place of love. Compassion and challenge and accountability. Can't one of the other distant gonna work got to bring a book yet. No that's great. And i appreciate you there and and yeah i'm i'm intense not a little bit intense but it but it comes but it comes it comes through the heart. I mean i i. I fully operate from a place of love so If that you know that was aggressive or or intense in any way that's me and and that's what people always gonna get. And and that's why. There's i i think it's so incredible that there's so many unique in and you had this kind of soft kind of delivery of a about how you kind of articulate your words but i think we you know. We got a little bit of differences. You know i'm going to attract certain guys you're gonna talk sir god. I really appreciate you kind of kind of point that out. I think that was gonna credible points I wanna hit on this word. Kinda giggled nelson note. That guy is been. Because i i. I've been there been there before. And i and i wrestled with it every day. I have a business coach. Said i pay a significant amount of money to every single month yet. I still challenged with like okay. I'm in this program but this over here looks really good. I gotta pull myself back on speaking from a place of real personal experience there I wanna i wanna hang musial touch on if you can't creator. I see it's a big word you know in in your content. i see. it's a big thing you mentioned molting times here You know in in some just curious like you know you have a defining definition of the word grader. How do you typically what it means to become this creator with capital c in reu spell. You capitalize every word. So so what's the meaning or kind of how you define what it isn't emigrated sa- creator to me. Someone who is taken themselves the creating a lot. Consciousness of their choices in life whether that be story that they tell themselves whether that be a patterns that they say like just your aunt. This is now my family is or whether that be a choices of whether or not. They're going to get that snack like ten pm recreating a lot of consciousness in our choice and so we're not on autopilot where we're just consuming and we're making choices that are base in our own values and that are based in what we want and are based in our vision for life so it's about being generative instead of being reactive and it's also about learning to have a grounded place where you feel the things that suck and you acknowledge the things you're afraid avenue you the pain shame or the problem but that you realize it every problem is something that you can transform into a possibility and it into a prajit every obstacle and you turn it into an opportunity and again i want to be real clear because i did the toxic positive stuff in the beginning right. That's not what i'm talking. I'm talking about the glasses pollyanna but like feel what you feel and then learn to create from it. You know so. That's what it's really about. It's also about someone who takes the right like. I'll take the lead at times when i want something my partner. I also known to learn how to follow. It's somebody who takes the lead at work. I mean i've clients all the time it's like well in my company like no one ever takes vacations. I'm like dude they're paying you have pto. But just because you're boston take medication and the guy doesn't take vacation when the take vacation doesn't mean that you can't so if you feel burnt out you aren't that space. You do the bold strokes. The vulnerable things courageous thing go create the vacation. Well my partner. She's never in the mood. She's never this she'd never that. Guess there's opportunity for you to learn about how to cultivate your own sexual power your own reality and to do that work on yourself and then bring it into the relationship so it really is about not blaming others not shaming yourself looking at like. Hey maybe it's not my fault. But it is not civility so we have vision have emotional fluency we have the capacity to learn here are self talk negative and we can really transform. Our situations are problems or challenges in the more what we want in this life. It's i it's like. I could go on forever about this but it is. It's about an is. We'll try and out-muscle it with their heads and you can't do it in your got. Open your heart gug into your guts and learn about what's your intuition is gonna take risk. You take risk and learn to be vulnerable. Put yourself out there too hard stuff. No manager energy and really learned sanjay relationships not just the ones. You're aim but like your relationship. The relationship work. We should the money they through your relation to love whatever it may be so. That's a creator man. I could go up this stuff creator. You're lining head heart and guts. You're practicing yourself care. You're grounding into a sense of self trust because you're consistency yourself care and you're opening yourself to self love which is like really the bad aspects in this world come from like human. You said it's like your ten. Th you come from the heart so slow down there. Because i could keep going i mean. That's that's that's incredible. I mean it's just coming off last week last week's episode bs stephen press not familiar with his work. The war and you know he. I'm just gonna see a quote you've heard on on you know the last episode by it just resonates so much with what you're sharing here know. Creative work is not an a selfish actor bid for attention on the part of the actor. It's a gift to the world in every being in it so don't cheat on your contribution give us what you got like. Every single one of us was given this a powerful ability to create whether it's creating life you know whether it's creating art literature music creating powerful meaningful conversations that can then be shared with the world and had a deep back every single one of us walking. This green earth has the ability in has the power living inside of us. And i think you and i both agree on this that that our role in this life our purpose in this in this world is to find that creative misl- is living inside of us in and bring it out to to serve others and make the world a better place so in tune with with with what you so. That book is another one that show notes the world. You can translate that booking into anything into lung your relationship your body to your work. You don't have to be a writer. Author artist creator. You don't have to find that one thing every day of your life. You can be a creator. I wake up. I do my morning routine i get to work. I say i am conscious of the things that i say to my partner you know and the things i say myself we create our day when you create your day consistently create your life. You know the fuck life rather than holding on for dear life which is one of my one of my tag arts you know. I love that. I love that. Create you know instead of instead of be reacting in in in in so many people in this world you know we live in this constant reaction along goes off. Hit snooze rollover start looking at instagram where responding to the world. You know the news on cnn or screaming at us you know. Corona virus is going to kill. You know it's got two point. Zero zero one percent always constantly Living in this in this reactive state in in. And that's where you know some of these you know we didn't get a lot into you know health in in in sickness and in all this but understanding just bring all the way back to to fear like like. Don't allow fear to control your life so brother joe. This has been an incredible conversation I know that people are gonna. I got so much out of this on it. It it things resonated things you know. Obviously there was. There's a new kind of kind of spins on things that i that that i heard. He thinks i'm going to start implementing like i said in coaching in in my life. So i wanna give an opportunity for the men that are out there. I'm sure there's gonna be some net that resonated with it you know and maybe wanna go deeper with you So where can people connect you do. Work they learn more about the drop the armor you mentioned Getting let you know maybe even defined like what it means to to get later. Live life So yeah just kind of you know kind of kind of comes cher where you're hanging out these days. What are some big things That that you're working on any exciting things kinda kinda coming up that you can share with us and then we'll just being a home here sure Be up simply about being passionate every day in our life throws at you know even if you're in a depression it's like you're passionate about what that depression is giving you teaching your soul. You know so that you can come out of it. Be even more empowered by and no yourself deeper right like that's it's about being lit being excited about the director of your life in a place where you have a vision for what you want after it and maybe that beijing is dislike a job. I love my partner I want to stop yawning. Kids maybe that vision is like to be wrapped up some work with where he was like he'd worked for google in his early twenties. He hated it. He's been on this journey to figure out what he works and he's now creating products in doing a plant medicine. Shamanism starting intentional communities for him. It's like part of our work was removed to brazil. Because i can live off told her bucks a month in brazil and do whatever i want and take five six years to build all this by That's so it doesn't matter which end of the spectrum your arm it could just be a matter of being lit up about the day to day stuff that you do or could be full-scale transformation in your life and creation where people can buy me so. I do have one on one coaching macho when this is gonna air but at the moment got a couple of slots open so people are ran in connecting with me. You can just straight up. Email me at joe drop the arbor dot com. You can also find the on facebook on instagram. search joe bernstein or dropped the armor and facebook. You want to hang out with some dope humans of all gender identity. Not just dukes then Checkout drop the armored doja. It's a place where we're working hard to make the choices of love revere courage over comfort and chretien over consumption. It's a really beautiful community. People are sharing up life sharing their challenge sharing their beauty their goal. You know in this really amazing way like a men's group but online but for for people of all genders. Because i gotta get love to women and non binary folks too. I can't can't just serve. And even though i work with them directly so that's it yeah no finally got it. So we'll we'll we'll get all. Joseph plugged in down near that. Joe at drop the armor and a are mor rex. You already know right. yeah joking. Dot com amazing amazing. Yeah we'll get we'll get all that stuff plugged in aching biggest citing you know kinda kinda kinda working on or any fear that you're currently working through yourself Yeah so yeah absolutely. I mean there's no question about that There are some big fear is going on in my life. There's things working on this able i. I'm taking april off of social media. this was probably the last thing i would even consider doing that. I call this building. I'm serving the clients that i have right now in my You know. I got a couple of talking to you about joining my work. But otherwise actually taken breeder. And i'm looking at like. How do i wanna frame the next step in my work when i want to create going lower and i'm i'm afraid i'm afraid of losing the momentum sprayed of trajectory afraid of the social media algorithms forgetting about me and all that stuff but i just decided it was time. Do it my partner. I've got a place out west. Virginia so now have retreat space. I go into the woods. I could just be. I can work on deeper levels of creation rather than the daily grind creation. I'm excited about excited about building my life partner natalie. Run our two years in getting closer and closer to buckling down to create that family. Could she's it. She's just a lover rat together a little bit of one on lit up about a little bit afraid of the small. That's awesome note for secrecy sharing sharing that. I'm excited to see what comes out of this this this month for you. I know You know. I spent some time up in an inordinate entire month i spent seven days there In early two thousand nineteen in in in in this that we're doing Is a result of that. It was you know this. This podcast was developed in a cabin in the mountains People what got to go to the mountains to put a podcast together. Because that's how i roll That's really exciting in Excited to see what what what comes up your manso so out it so much. This has been an amazing conversation. We have one question. We end every single episode with You know it may be something that has been shared here before And maybe kind of a combination of everything we talk about here but obviously the show is called a super human life. It is a direct result of a transformation that took place in my life. You know. I lived in this kind of false identity. Fear state you know running from who. I was inside building. This shield of body literally put you know two hundred and fifty pounds of muscle on to prevent myself from the world for people really getting to know who i truly was. When i was able to break down. I literally had to break my body down. It took me dropping fifty pounds of muscle. I went through a dramatic transformation You know there was a there was a spearsville component to that is as well and i realized that you know i was created here for a very specific purpose. I was put on this earth at this time for for calling. And i feel worse than i'm doing here. Is that so. When i talk about living a superman night for me it is. It is more of a a a deeper philosophy or belief or or way about how i just kind of see the world But i always love to get you know the guests take on on the day superior is so join as we bring it home here today. How would you define living supreme in life. I love that question Being super connected to your humanity is living a super human life. And what i mean by that is an one hand owning your unlimited possibility potential that created that we spent the last hour talking about and on the other hand deeply identifying with the reality that so much. We don't know much. We'll never know embracing the not knowing racing the marooned in parts of ourselves embracing that light can be a mess and we're not perfect. No-one world hasn't altogether and we disconnected ourselves from so many of our our our our our natural ways of bees human can we reclaim the body. The spirit soul attention. That's stolen from us so often by modern can we lean into being driven by love and not just no money and status and looks and can we be really human and natural own that we are a mess and possibly capable of everything we're capable want paradox of owning all of our humanity either creates a superhuman credible. So so we'll guys you. You heard it here you were. You're giving the power to to create lift life jumpy armor but for for frank joke is join. This conversation obviously get connected with joe where all his information plugged on it in the show notes from all those books for you guys as well But don't just consume consume and and take action in apply shared with with you here today and obviously if you guys found value in this conversation or conversations that we've had here on this podcast we we always appreciate those. Those ratings reviews. That's what helps us continue to grow. That's what helps us get this message out there to more and more men just like yourself so if you haven't done so yet we would appreciate if you let five star rating and review right there on apple whatever podcast. You are listening to but for frank rich joe. Burstein love you guys and we'll see you next week. Hey guys thank you so much for sticking all the way till the end here. If you've been around for a while seeing listen to abor episodes i haven't done in altro like this before. But because of what i mentioned in the beginning of the intro towards the end of the answer right before we got into today's episode. I just wanted to add another layer of context into what i was Speaking to so if you guys listen to the entire episode than you probably heard joe mention when i when he was sharing Where to connect with him socially where where you can find him more online That he's building communities building. Try on and although he does working with man he did explain. That group is open to men women. binary anybody that identifies in any other any other way So i just wanted to share you know I don't wanna do this on the controversial perspective. And that's not my goal here just you know as i said we We're christian show. We're all under the category So like i said. I'm also proud of myself on having conversations that maybe don't always align with me. We've done a handful of times and It's it's something that i always want to give the guest the opportunity to fully share themselves and give them a platform to put their message out there. And that's what. I'm doing here with this show but with mine guys. I just want to From my perspective. From the way that i see things Genesis one twenty seven does tell us that god created man in his image both men and women and i believe that our sex in our gender our one in fact the same thing. They're just two different ways of of explaining this. And i don't want to you know overly spend time on this because we're not a political show Where where show to help. People were show To really service the world and that's really. My goal here is to have an impact on like i said. I wrestled with removing that But it doesn't align with who i am and it doesn't align with what i'm really trying to create here so i didn't. I wanted fully leaving in there. Like i said multiple times so with that in mind guys. I just wanted to thank you for joining us. Thank you for lending us your ear all the way till the end or whether you're watching on on youtube. Thank you for watching all the way till the end. I hope that this episode spoke you in one way shape in. I hope that maybe you're gonna look deeper into some joe's works if you're one of those men that identified with type of people that he works with you know just reach out to In continue of all like. I said. I'm i'm really excited to see what he's going to. Continue pound this world so i thank you again guys. I really hope that this episode was valuable to you. It was mixture. Tither subscribe their leaves a comment on youtube or whatever podcast platform. You are listening on mixture to hit that subscriber follow button and it was a five star rating in review without further. Ado guys. thank you once again from frank rich. I love you so much. We'll see you next week

joe bernstein joe frank rich chris guessing Joe bernstein mench Chris wilson Joe Di di di di adiga taibbi
Ep 155 Is It MANLY to Share Your Feelings? ft. Joe Bernstein

Strong By Design Podcast

1:05:33 hr | 2 months ago

Ep 155 Is It MANLY to Share Your Feelings? ft. Joe Bernstein

"We believe that you are strong by design. And you were made in god's image to have a strong body mind and spirit. You're listening to the number. One strengthen health authority podcasts in the world. So let's get ready to unlock your potential and transform your life in today's episode. Hey there and welcome to another episode of the strong by designed podcast show. This is your host coach. Chris wilson and i have the luxury of hosting another strong by design episode. I feel like doing a lot of these lightly. But you know here. It's strong design. We take turns Coach tanya does episodes Michael episodes even once in a while. We have Samantha do one. And that's what makes it so much fun is that we all bring something different to the show and with the guests that were able to connect with and the conversations were able to have. But i'm so happy to have this guest today who you'll get to me in just a second but before we get to. Who joe is i want to. Just thank you so much for choosing our show. It really means a lot. I try to say this in every episode at some point that you've chosen our show with hundreds of thousands of options out there There's a there are a lot of great podcasts out there we understand that But we do feel like we're one of them and we just feel so So thrilled that you've found our show and you are continuing to listen to us on a weekly basis so thank you so much and if you take a moment after you've listened to this episode just click that five star rating and review for us Really helps us You know to be more visible and move up in the rankings. So that other people can find our show so we thank you so much for that and now our guest today. This is a transformation co. Coach so i mean he is right in our wheelhouse if you want to transform yourself body spirit and everything else This is a go. Go-to guy is a great is on amazing transformation which i want you to hear more about in just a minute. Our guest today is joe bernstein and he has been around the block. He's helping people in all walks of life in their professional life in their relationships He's helping people to get through things maybe difficult situations. He's like a life coach and he is doing wonderful things In in the world. And i really am so happy to have him on the other side of this conversation because i'm curious to know more about him and his back story so jo. I welcome to strong by design. Thanks for having me chris. I appreciate it. And i appreciate you start up so if gratitude to listeners that to me is amazing that people are offering time energy and attention to be spending time with your company with us today. That's frigging amazing. So thank you for that. It is man right. it's it's always feels In some of the podcast. I listened to. When you're podcasts are usually have you listen to podcasts. And the ones. I like the most are the ones that that gratitude felt right from when they hit go and they they re. There's a genuine feeling that i get from those other. Podcasts shows that. I love so much that they're just so happy to have even just one listener on the other side and knowing that they're connecting to somebody and helping somebody make some some radical change in their life for the better and so i know you've you've had a great story to tell And i really wanna get into it. So if you would let's Let's just dive deep here and find out about who you are and let our listeners into your world a little bit so i do as you mentioned. Been transformational coach. Coach growth coach. Would to call it and i worked mostly with men End today live life. That i like to call pretty pretty exciting mind. Body spirit had heart guts. But i didn't always to set. Some context actually need to go way back all the way back. I grew up in a middle-class. I'd say fairly privileged suburban lifestyle and my dad did well for us. Everything was taken care of material for the most part and i grew up in a generation. Where my parents maybe. Your parents didn't have a lot of the tools for learning emotional development communication relationship skills that we have today. We are so privileged and blessed with so much of this what i wanted to like emotional intellectual and spiritual technology that our parents didn't have so my parents love hard but love through them comes with stress and anxiety and scarcity and when we were young. It was a lot of arguing yelling bickering. And i'd say outright emotional violence. I love him to death. My dad's probably listen to this thing but my parents just went at each other's throats all all day long when we were kids. We did. We grow up in the same house probably like we. We grew up in the same home man. Well it's a joke but like a lot of it was interesting. Because i did see a lot of the same experience where people's parents for like bickering and fighting in the yell in front of the friends and stuff. But you could tell like there's just not a lot of skill set when it comes to how communicate you know. Marriage is hard. Parenting is hard. There's no question but no one said hey. Focus on on growing these ways of being right so we have a lot of people who had all the safety love comfort in the world but who were emotional volatile environments. I was one of them and so my family. You know we didn't drink. We didn't do drugs. We didn't gamble. Known was a sex addict but we basically eight watch. Tv got addicted the soothing behaviors that were running amok and so i live this childhood Three or four out twice as big as other kids and not muscular. I wasn't like bench precedent. Doing i wasn't doing your workouts at four years old and so i grew up that way. I also have some different in the way. I learned so the eighties. They call learning disabilities. So the tony. Young guy already know pretty different. I don't quite learn not quite performing in school. That teachers may want me to their kids. Do teased or picked on all the time. And i got family fighting at how parents like the role models fighting at home. The make a story short by the time. I was sixteen. I took in all of these beliefs. What parents they loved so deeply. But all i saw was like the bickering and the scarcity the stress and the fear of time and money took an all these beliefs about you know a heavy kid. Or let's just be honest. What of constantly called the fat kid right growing up. There's something wrong with you. there's less your less. then you're slower. Never picked joke. I never pick lasts on the on the plainfield second-last as at least athletic for a big kid is always like the came with the glasses that i couldn't even catch a ball every but the point is you know i took these messages and also still live in a world. That's changing that says. Hey your body isn't beautiful number lovable. very attractive. probably won't have much success with the opposite or same sex depending on your orientation. I thought stop sixteen thinking like well. I know i'm smart. But i'm not gifted school so i'll never have a great deliver a great college career. I'll never have a great career. Make good money doing something that i loved. I never be successful with. Women had rude as they say nowadays. Like i always fantasized about women but just believed i couldn't at love and really did think that since i was born almost born this way i'll always be heavy. Always be obese or overweight and i even thought consciously like i might be one of these guys who has a heart attack strokes early in life. I just thought that as who. I am so scarcity. The're emotional numbing believing lessons kind of just how operated to it all. I didn't think there was anything wrong. This is just made as just to i. Am i guess. Some set for mediocrity. I was up and down over three hundred pounds in highschool. I date at all fast forward. Twenty five on three hundred forty pounds. Wow found my way into a career that actually joy and succeeded out after failing college. And i just kind of like jerked around in college really. Try hard and believe i never tried. But i'm three hundred forty pounds working retail career. I'm on my feet forty sixty hours a week and i'm struggling with that. You know i see that as my only option and then i didn't date for many years in my twenties because of all these beliefs and all this consumption of what society told me i should be. Finally i dated. I decided i said okay. That's online dating. I've heard about this online dating sites that i go online. I date like two people. And i've fallen love in a very toxic and codependent way with the woman. Mary her so the tunnel. I'm twenty eight. I'm over three hundred pounds in a career for ready years of successful in the career and a married. Like i remember thinking like kinda gone have more than i thought. I could have a stumbled into a life. That was better than i believed. It was possible but to thirteen came. I went through a health crisis with kidney stones. Because you're carrying around that much weight. Something's gonna start. Malfunctioning kidneys yup My wife at the time came to me and said that once you come to therapy with me. 'cause i've not been happy for a long time and i looked around me and realized i got comfortable in my career leading multimillion dollar retail stores. And i wasn't trying for the next level. It didn't appeal to me. I wasn't going after promotions anymore. I got myself a condo walk to my stores. I was like sentinels comfortable. Some thirty going like wait a second. The career that i was excited about just better than i thought i have. Maybe i'm plateauing losing passion this marriage which i thought i'd never have something's really off the rails here and obviously thirty starting to getting hit with all these health. I have multiple. Christ could you tell us the biggest one. Yeah so luckily for me thinks fell apart. Even worse i joke but it took us about five months of being in couples therapy together for my ex to come to me and say she wanted a divorce and that was the dividing line like the moment catalyst in my life where i looked at myself and something changed. I was trained in leadership of trained in heart center sales. I was trained to train people and motivate people a net in my stores when i was a successful retail manager. Everything was your responsibility. Anything was possible if no excuses like the economy. The recession traffic didn't come in. It's gonna make it happen. So it's almost like the professional trading but i learned for decade. I wasn't applying to my personal life. And that moment of crisis everything changed and actually saw that i had a choice to change the way i operate when it comes to love and relationship change operate rate with my body. Even i could finally get healthy. Part of the story is lost. A bunch of weight just by eating whole foods over the course of a few years being environmentally friendly. Cut a foodie. I started eating great and losing twenty thirty pounds. And so i saw the light for you know it's like hey it doesn't have to be deprivation and crazy diets and richard simmons right to to lose weight right so i i saw possibility for the first time in my life and i also got hooked. I started reading some of the books therapist recommended. I was completely lit on fire to learn about how we operate our mind body connection our beliefs or emotions relationships attraction sexuality and before you knew it a year after that crisis point i had lost honor pounds. I went on to lose one hundred sixty pounds. I was divorcing in dating with confidence and passion multiple women that were quote unquote outta my league. My whole life and my social life had changed and actually at the time was performing better in that retail career before eventually left but that was the big story. That changed everything for me. Eventually i woke up one day. It was like look if applying things that people are teaching out there in the world about how we lead. We love how we live. How we think how we feel and how we can actually create discipline after a life of having no discipline that i've got to go out there and help other people do it. Just hit me like. There's no way i can just transform so much mind body spirit without going out there and help you know so there's plenty more story about. How did i just decide to leave retail and start coaching and figure it all out over the years but will stop there because that was really where everything changed and for me it was about emotions. Strong emotion strong mindset in a strong beliefs about how the world works and strong relationships with myself and others and just applying continuing learn grow. Our team would like to thank you so much for listening to the strong bydesign podcast. And if you're enjoying today show please share this episode with at least one friend or family member who will benefit from this message and please subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes goto strong design. Podcasts dot com. that's strong bydesign. Podcast dot com. Let's get back to the show. Say i think that's what makes somebody in your position. Now somebody that can help coach someone through a transformation or just major change in their life. It makes you so much more credible. Because you live that in that same position you lived in you were in that same place Going through the same struggles. Same comfort The life of comfort the existing. But not living you know and there's a lot of people there and you were that you were there for quite a quite a few years. You got married in that in that in that comfort zone you were working in that comfort zone and and i think that's that's what makes you will probably lead to more success for somebody like yourself or Just people see you as someone while like this guy did it and once they know that back story it's just say no one. I say that because you know the the great t like people look at michael jordan right or something you know the best basketball player who lived doesn't necessarily may make him the best coach because you can't really think in his career where he was ever but if you saw an evolution of a player go from a not so good player to a really highly skilled or exceptional player. But maybe not even at the the the level of like michael jordan. But you see that that struggle and that breakthrough moment and then it's like i want to tap into that like. What did that person learn. What did that person start doing. That brought them from eight. And of course you know. Everyone has their own version of that. Not everybody was. Was tom brady from the womb or michael jordan from the womb. Right and i always equate. It's easy to quit things to sports when you talk about like being a high level or or or a coat a highly skilled coach but even the best coaches weren't necessarily the best athletes or the best players there was just a process that they were able to To create based on you know be being surrounded by you know by athletes or or seeing what worked what didn't work and they're just really really good at putting everything together and fitting those puzzle pieces together and it sounds like you know you're obviously reached that point in your life where the struggle is real for you and now you're at a place and in a position where you just want to give back which is the best place to be where it's just like this work for me and i know it can work for you and this is how i did it and you're not holding back it's just you're an open book with with strategies and tips to help people. Yeah get through those dark times absolutely. Thank you for seeing that i. I do believe that people have through big transformations big change. Have a place where we can both hold people in compassion for the struggle but also hold a fire under the but say. There's nothing special about me. If i could do it. You can do this past person. Were going to do it. You could do it these five people. I can find examples of trying to do what you wanna do could do it. So can you. So so it is easier to have both. And i do think a good coach. It'd be a strength coach or a life coach in out our football coach. Like you're going to have both they're going to be able to hold people see them where they're at meet them where they're at a compassionate and challenge them and you mentioned comfort being in the comfort and that at the end of the day is a big part of my story is life was emotionally challenging and so i found ways to avoid emotional challenge wherever possible yup and i found ways to stay comfortable whether it be physically or emotionally or mentally and that comfort led me to believe that it wasn't safe to take risks not applying not trying not stretching and so i like to say that instead of creating life i was holding on for dear life and there's so many people who story sounds nothing like mine where it looks like they're winning where for all intensive purposes of paper. They should be happy. Who can identify with that holding on for dear life energy because we can build a life that looks wonderful and then at times we're not truly expressed in it or not living our values or there's something that has not been attended to in our inner world or we're still living ourselves. I know people who like multiple businesses are multi dollar from. Like truth is really wanna go. Do excellent z. Yup something tells me. I can't so anyway i. It's about getting out of that comfort zone on multiple levels it really is and there so obviously there's so many different life right where we can get. Comfortable can get comfortable with our fitness. We can get comfortable in our relationships and we could start to dial back the effort that we're putting into those things because you know change and growth sometimes requires like taking a few steps back before you can take that big leap forward you know and a lot of people that don't want to put themselves out there. You've said you know they don't want to risk it you know. You don't want to risk anything. They're holding on for dear life rather than kind of letting go and letting these changes leading things happen to them. 'cause when when times are are easy you know when things are all going our way. We don't really learn a lot. There's a lot of growth happening. It's it's overcoming of things where we love like last year. Twenty twenty is a lot of people that were just itching to get out of that year. You know couldn't wait. But i look back. I look i was looking back in while we were still in twenty twenty and saying you know. There's a lot of great lessons. Being learned this year this year could be the reason for hundreds of thousands if not millions of people's amazing stories going forward how they had to adapt overcome. Get through things navigate through life's challenges and also. I made some great memories in that year. You know did some some some simple trips with my family that maybe we wouldn't have taken And some of my favorite trips where we like just with my family and it was just not around groups of people or anything And just in the woods in national forest or out on a farm. Where my wife's family's from where we're just kind of isolated by ourselves and those are some of the best trips i've ever had in my life and i wouldn't give up for anything. Thank you so much for listening to the strong design podcast to help our show reach more listeners. Just like you please let us know how we've changed your life by leaving a five star rating and review on i tunes go to strong by podcast dot com. That's strong by design. Podcasts dot com. Let's get back to the show when you're in the in the crap when you're in the in the d- tough times that's where all the all the great things are happening to our to our spirit and two are given us a thick skin and an inability to deal with those tough things that are undoubtedly gonna hit us down the road. You got it got it. We have to train that capacity that resilience in in every day moment sexually sometimes to be able to really handle it when a twenty twenty hits or when something big happens and don't wanna make light of of anything. This year's been crazy for so many people in hard so many people in there has been a lot struggle. But you're right. Is that struggle something. It's going to be used as a catalyst for growth change for deeper connection for transformation for acceptance of like wedeman. Life's great of an hustling and pushing and look again the day. I've got most of what i want. Which 'cause i don't wanna. I don't wanna confuse comfort with contentment correct. We wanna be content. Have that capacity still grow. But yeah that that's so such a big part of it. Such a big part of it is the that strong mind develop that in times when things are comfortable so that when things get hard moretti. We're ready to pivot ready to grow. Will you talk a little bit about in your experience that mind body connection how the two are are are really one and how they have such a dramatic impact on the other. It's nothing that you can do for your body that doesn't have an impact on the mind and vice versa. Could you just down there a little bit right. I can go down that road and we could get into all kinds of wild roadmaps on that one. Because i do it primarily work with men and i actually think that men have been very much taught by our world to do one of two things either deeply value the body from perspective of how it can perform. Yes and how it looks i could lift a bunch. I run fast. I can catch a ball or look great or been taught to disembodied dude who my whole life. It easy for me to disembodied my whole life. I've gotten paid by by basically by talking about having conversations by listening right like thinking and applying that And so a lot of men are like me whether it's been through conversation and communication or whether it's sciences and finance and things like that a lot of men have been taught your value is only in your brain right only your so essentially what happens is we either. Get overly reliant on our body and then as it starts to age. Maybe you haven't injury. Maybe and this is true for me like maybe the diet and exercise routine. You've been doing. Your metabolism changes your body changes and all the sudden. You're looking at a star tire something right. If we're so identified with looking and performing great we really struggle when things change or we get an injury or something you know something goes on right same with the mindset. You know if you're just focused on her intellect you're gonna be missing. A lot of opportunity allows central opportunity allowed opportunity to experience motion because motions happened actually in our body not so much in our mind their hormonal reactions inside this beautiful endocrine system that shoot through our our limbs and our body everything right and our inner gut the second got so when we're just all head were missing a lot of human experience and we typically will have a lot of problems with relationships relations ourself relationship with others. We try and outsmart every problem we try. And every problem intellectually. When sleep problems can be dominated. They have to be danced with third. Love deduct cuddled if you will and then overcome and so the mind and body are so vital and so i wanna say that for both ends we wanna be able to connect them and then even bring it out to more. Solar spirit is not just mind body specifically. Let's talk about our emotions and our emotional wellbeing. It's normal but i work with a lotta guys fit. And they love their body that everybody that they're very heavy and they have a lot of anxiety. Liquor identifies over thinker. Well you're over thinker and you're not literally taking care of your body and i mean taking care of it in multiple ways where you know how to relax and rejuvenate you know to take care of yourself more of with some mike golic effeminate way you take a bath and enjoy some sense jewish some good foods and take a mindful meal right like actually care for pamper your body or if you're not expressing it you're not using it physically to get out during energy to get out your emotional energy to get out some of the excess and that you have in the body. Chances are you're going to end up being someone who's thinking a lot anxious. We have to almost move energy from being head. Top-heavy done in the body through movement and through relaxation. And through self care. And what we're not taking care of the body the mind can go quite crazy We also could talk about depression or anxiety from a clinical perspective. Now snow psychologist not. Don't have a psychologist or therapist but just about everyone on. I have a lot of friends that i've met through personal growth work people who are very addicted personal growth work like me. We may have some problems in our tasks right. So it's i have a lot of friends who experienced a deep level's anxiety. Traumatic pass have experienced depression. I gotta tell you everyone. I know who is actually creating a life that they really love. That manages that anxiety. Well they're not relying solely on pills and therapists. They're really using exercise and nutrition as a way to manage the hormonal system to manage their energy to manage the feelings that come off in some way shape or form so we really have to be tapped into caring for loving and challenging mind and body and for me you know this is probably not your average listener but for me someone who is carrying around a very heavier overweight body. For so many years it started with my beliefs. I didn't believe in the mind that i could live healthy lifestyle. I didn't believe that. I could create the discipline to go to gym all the time and believe that i could actually had a relationship with food. That was loving nourishing and positive and exciting and still eat healthy. So that's another element of the whole mind. Body connection is our beliefs slope dictate. What we create with our bodies to go on forever there. Those are just and it's it's gold. I mean it's it. You're absolutely right. That the two are intertwined. You can't really separate them. And we've done a lot of work in the past with a gentleman by the name of mic gillette. Who is i. Don't know if you've heard of them or not but he he is a an amazing Life story at reads like a Like a hollywood movie all the things that he's been involved with and done over the years but We have a program from years ago called strength psychology and it's really all just about mental toughness and all the different things that go into it and toughness has less to do with your muscles and a lot more to do with your mindset But it's it's you have to be willing to to do some stuff some work on yourself and for some guys that that can be either scary or they just feel like. It's maybe not manly. Like why do. I need to tap into my emotions and my feelings. You know 'cause so many guys who consider themselves themselves mass-scale in her manley. They don't wanna talk about. Why do i need to talk about my past or my childhood with like you know my buddies or whatever what do they care but that could be some of the the most beneficial conversations. You'd ever have in your life. Why you deal with things in your life now. The way you deal with them is because of how you grew up and having that really what i'm getting into is i think having a really close friendship as we get older with with a handful of people that you have conversations with on a regular basis is so helpful. And of course you know there's there's therapists anders other like like yourself in life coach coaches and stuff that are out there. That are can become amazing mentors for you but just having a close connection with some friends where you guys are willing to to to share and reciprocal or you're both give this giving and taking and stuff but where you're a sounding board for each other and i do Quite a bit of reading myself and just how important that is from our younger years when we develop friendships all the way into our older years. How important is still have those friendships and it can. It could be one or two people. It doesn't have to be a huge group. It can be a kind of select few but where you engage. That person regularly Because that getting things off your chest and hearing back from someone else gives you perspective on things helps you release. Maybe some things that are painful and helps you deal with them on a much healthier way looking to win some free critical bench. Swag here's how subscribe to the strong design podcast on itunes and then visit us on instagram at the critical bench to let us know your subscriber. Dms to get your free gifts. Have joke that a lot of guys. They've that mesylate may vacillate between emotional constipation and emotional diarrhea. like i'm keeping it all in. I'm snuffing it all out and then all the sudden you can't hold anymore right and you get sick and you either go into a depression or anxiety or you rage out your partner for like thirty seconds and then you regret it for two weeks so or you like people in leadership to. It's like they're trying to act the nice guy. A good leader emotional intelligence. Daniel goldin at harvard business review and meanwhile they're not learning to actually feel and and and own an express in a generative and creative connective way. What's really going on for them. Right put up the mess. I actually named my business drop the armor wellness. Originally my original training. Coaching was an eating psychology. In mind body attrition. And i thought it was gonna be all about health way and really do a lot of great work around health but also really with people with men around relationships and if they want to make a career move and just getting grounded sense of there being so they can create wherever they won life. But i thought it's me all about that and in reality is a lotta guys listening whether they're extra pounds weather listening and women too. I shouldn't exclude women or whether they're really getting strong and buff in big where at some point in our life young and happens young Product bringing up the youth. You know life experience around at some point in life. When we were young we felt vulnerable. Something happened we didn't feel safe. So masculinity has taught us the construct of masculine is. We'll get big. You're safe if you're being so people are up whether it's at the gym or whether it's at the buffet line the armor up big physically grounds us makes us harder to move but at the end of the day a lot of the time really just trying to protect against vulnerable emotions that are never going to be protected by our biceps Doing the doing the workouts. Never gonna get you there. When you're having a real crisis with your your parents are aging and your girlfriends. You know on the verge of breaking up with you and your boss is like wondering where the report is what armed making up scenarios but the reality is those things are never. They're important abbad important. But if we're not creating resilience emotionally and with our mindset. We're not creating capacity to really turn the save problems into possiblility projects intern setbacks into solutions and obstacles and opportunities like these things can sound cliche these days but sultry so true it really is. It's a great point I don't know anybody who i've become close to in the last you know. Let's say decade of my life or so who hasn't had some major struggle or struggles in their past and we've confided in each other and talked about And these are people you get to a deeper level of In your relationship with people men or women when you're able to talk through some of those issues Especially when there's you've had similar backgrounds similar experiences and there's a there's a connection there An unspoken an unspoken thing that happens where you just feel more connected to people because you've both gone through some tough stuff that you're willing to share and confide in each other and it really helps it just helps unleash. It's like releasing pressure from one of them pressure cookers and so many guys are living with all that inside of them and at some point. They're gonna pop like you said it's the constipation diarrhoea. You know it's like you're it's building it's building it's building and finally the top is going to pop. It's going to come out in some way in your life and it might be a mess things up For you a pretty big and some for some people. That's what it takes for them to realize like i gotta change here Some people have find a way to live their whole life like that and then at the end of their of their life. They live this bottled up life than realize all the things that they missed out on because they were unwilling to drop that armor. Like you said just open up with people and connect and which makes for better relationships that for me. That's like the number one thing whether it's a relationship at home for me with my wife and my children are relationship with my my coworkers. My relationship with friends that come and visit us here at the critical bench compound for workouts or demand. I'm i do a saturday morning. A zoom call a men's group and we and it it's it's amazing To connect and for me. That's the biggest thing The connection i'm kind of an extrovert. I'm a talker. You can't really shut me up from for me. I can't live in isolation. Like i'm a i'm a guy that i like my moments. But they're moments. They're just brief periods. Where maybe i'm i'm in prayer Reading a devotional. Or i'm just going for a walker run or bike ride by myself but for the most part. I really liked to be surrounded by people that i love to be with and and i like to. I like them to see all of me. Not just the parts. That i'm willing to show them. Yeah that's so true and it's so powerful when you can show all of you when you feel strong enough to show up and go you know jim might judge this part or he might not get it and but this is an experience i've had this is thought i had a feeling i had or this is just part of who i am at the corner. I'm tired of hiding. That is truly a moment of strength that that that's like a six hundred pound list for a of people literally just go. You know what. I'm going to start to show up more and more authentically in my relationships and i'm always blown away that when i'm coaching a guy to do that that's a lot of work. I mean i. I've got guys. It's like okay learning to show up until the truth more at work but in a way that doesn't get you fired actually gets you hired more and paid more and more sales. Were running the show and tell the truth with something that you've never told your partner for two years but it's always been a slight thing that weighs on your shoulders or a guy. I know who like throw work together. He quit smoking. He quit relying on marijuana. All the time for numbing equate a bunch of like doing chrome and all this stuff like all the time. Just feel some sense of energy. He quit all these things. He never told his parents who is still close at the thirty one number told his parents who live like ten minutes away. I do all these things had these addictions. Meanwhile he's disconnected his dad. 'cause his dad started with a bunch of addictions got sober when he was like a team. And he's not connecting with him here and he's not connected with the folks sister and he's like hiding this stuff and now he's got something huge to celebrate. You spent a few months like totally kicking. Clean up his life. And so even the courage to just bridget conversation of hey this has been a part of who i am and i don't want you to give me all the questions right now. Why the heck do in that stuff. But i want you to celebrate with me. The fact that i'm changing my life. These are bold moments and their moments that change our lives change our relationships and that. That's i talk about. Like what. Am i really help people do. It's it's getting lit up like an passionate. It lit up and feeling on fire about their life and that ability to be authentic and vulnerable with obsessive grounding. That like i'm going to be okay. How they react but chances are they're going to love me more fat superpower and it really is our team would like to thank you so much for listening to the strong bydesign podcast. And if you're enjoying today show please share this episode with at least one friend or family member who will benefit from this message and please subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes goto strong by design. Podcasts dot com. That's strong bydesign. Podcast dot com. Let's get back to the show you touch on on the fact that everything in life in your life all the different areas right your your your career your relationships your fitness your overall health all these things your financial all those things you can't just put them all in little boxes and be like okay. I'm really good here. So that's i'm checking that box like they all have an impact on each other. You know and we just kind of talk about whether you know whether it's a word like you wanna use the word balanced or or being you know in your approach to putting the effort and the energy into all those different of your life or or worse. Should someone start if someone feels like. Oh my gosh. Like where do i even begin. You know i got my finances are messed up. My health disaster my relationship suck. It's like if they feel like. Do i have to do everything at once. How do i. How do i begin. I know that's kind of a crazy question. I just asked just john touch on that. Yeah well i'll tell you. I'm so part of my story. Reads like none of my shipments together fingers and figured it all out right but but the truth is you know. Until if they hit the fan. I was happy and comfortable in my relationship. Someone else wasn't. And if i look back i was kinda numb to it. I had a career for many years of my whole twenty s but really loved and truthfully when things fell apart in that marriage. I was stable career wise. I knew i wasn't passionate but it's like you know this one. I got this on lock down. But here's this other stuff. My relationship my body. My love life not working. What had to say about balance a lot of time is that people stressed out about being balanced like this things often that things off and that things often and i work on this and then this things off and i said the people look balances beautiful over all. We want balance. The chances are you're a human being and chances are you've got one or two of the major legs of the stool of life under control. So really i challenge people focus on one or two things at a time. Make those deep focus. Heck even focus on one got Have one body right like this isn't likely we're listening here. It's like strong. Bet is ii Mind body and spirit but up the check that social media teaching me how to do you know single leg slots and things of that nature right. So it's about the physical body right so at the end of the day. What are you going to focus on. You can create balance over time. If i have a guy who's like look you know my families great. I'm happy with my wife. My kids are growing. I feel like i'm a good dad. Sometimes i don't spend too much as much time as i want to own a business but i'm not taking care of my health like let's take care of your health. Let's focus on that. And then guess what. Maybe you can have been teeter totter and put a little more energy back into the business six months from now and maybe at that point you realize you wanna take a vacation. You didn't think that they should have the family for a while. I think it's okay for us to focus on one or two of the major important parts of life. At a time and let other things be good enough for now serviceable. You'll get to that thing you'll grow that thing. There'll be a moment where life will say. I want you to want you to put more energy into the relationship with your wife you to have been stagnant sexually for awhile to put some energy right or there's times like hey you know what let's go show up university in her wisdom. Something is going to happen. That's a little genus temper. Kids so actually don't stress too much about people being fully balanced all the time you look. You can only do one you can. You can only work do one strength training workout at a time right. You're not every muscle every moment. I know that metaphor doesn't work because our full body movements that totally. I get exactly what you're saying. It's prioritizing it's like there's a book called the one thing the have the have the book on my shelf there that the author's name escapes me for the moment. But the one thing is like what's most important thing in your life right now that you need to put all of your time and energy into as a first thing you know first thing in the morning first thing in the day and it's just prioritize iq so you know the most important thing do that i give your best effort and your best energy to that one thing and then that over time that might shift but you've you that now that one thing like you said you've moved that from like being at the bottom to a much more acceptable level or in your life. It's now it can run a little bit more on idol so to speak while you now make something else the most important thing for a little while and just keep shuffling net deck. Because it's really hard to keep all the areas of your life it running at an a plus right. I mean let's face it. Yeah finally totally. But it's just it's just taking inventory of of where you're at. I think in in whether it's a daily or weekly or monthly type thing and and being being willing to shift And being open to. That's where having i think a mentor or someone like yourself a coach someone. That is deeply connected. Knows your life knows you. There's there's been lots of conversation there. And i'm just lucky and fortunate to have people like that in my life. Who hold me accountable. We talk about accountability. A little bit because a lot of people taking ownership of things Is it can be very hard for people. Yeah yeah absolutely yeah. Accountability is an interesting one because people often hire a coach. And they're like. I'm just looking for accountability And i tell people that simply having a relationship with a mentor with a coach with a trainer with jim that tracks your attendants and calls. When you're not showing up. Like i said small studios i. I'm always blow eli here. That like cross-stitch call. Because i haven't been in two weeks stick with that jim forever. So right that's true. That's true know networked plenty with a gym owner is and of course the people i care about her like you know unique Business experiences so i know about this stuff. But it's like here's the deal. Put yourself in what. I might call a container that automatically makes you a bit more accountable. A men's group The coaching relationship has talked about some sort of mentor. Shift you know puts me. I love it when i see like my sister. I don't have kids yet. And my sister's one of my heroes. She's got a thirteen year. Old eleven year old. And i see that they have like a chart on the wall with how much money the kids aren't doing their chores in which chores are exactly like you walk. Every day. they eat dinner there now. They breakfast lunch and dinner there but every day eating dinner there and so that's literally something that creates a bit more accountability just by default. Support yourself in a position in a container. But ultimately i tell people in other person's never going to be able to really old you accountable. What's really going to have to happen is. You're going to have to become more and more aware of your choices and more and more. Mindfulness practices actually so much more important than even Talked about everywhere but it's so important they have to have the consciousness in the moment to start to see choices for making because the the brain can go on. Autopilot life has inertia. We've already people sat on a morning. Routine i wanna marry to. It's like you have a morning routine you just haven't designed in craft at one that's right everyone has one. We're making thirty thousand decisions each day so to me account while right so accountability is actually a process of getting more and more aware of my choice plans in more and more conscious to slow down and make a choice when i do have to work with someone around accountability. Say job just going to be honest. I didn't do you know. We're gonna work in the morning routine and i was going to have that hard talk with my wife like i kind of have talk with my wife in the morning teen only three out of seven days. Whatever you on your whimper saying you're not doing the work that how's that gonna help as going to help you with your life so we're gonna do is we're going to turn inwards we're going to look at a what feelings are coming up around that what beliefs you have about your life. That made it so that you had competing commitments and you've chosen other commitments dead. And then as well. I can't if i want two or three or from abc. But that's my mind works. But i think on c. but see is the reality is at. What was the point where you made a choice. At some point you had a choice right. I have a client who young kids owns a business with another partner. He's got like six dental offices. He bought a house to renovate his wife and him did most of the work from like eight to eleven nice nuts just everywhere doing everything under the end of the day. You know we have this exact bingo on. He's like look. You've helped me with so many things. But i still don't have my morning routine down at five years ago. I was so focused on my health. And so really. What we did was i asked him take ownership of. When did you make a choice that you weren't gonna go. You know we. We started real low. He's always is doing the thing that we do. Which is like well haven't been to the gym at five weeks so should sign up for a sixty bootcamp. Go five days a week right. Yeah they can't see your face if they're listening but he's he's he's waving down fast. Start small start with a win and build right is that we don't get taught school but of course he chooses. I say no. No no no Right now i want you to take a ten minute. Walk five days a week. We're start there or to go real low and slow for mayor. It'll be a run and from there will be strength training stuff and then after months then do the six am boot camp right so it comes these like i. You know. I did it most days but didn't do the last two days you it's about. Do you want to look at the choices ebay. The i didn't have time in the morning because we had an early meeting. And by the time i got home i just wanted to like relax in england. My kids great you know. Where are you taking ownership the choice you make. You chose the morning meeting your shows hanging out with your kids at any point in the day you could have stopped me the choice. So when did you realize you didn't take your walks. Well when i got home. Did you make a choice in that moment. Either go on the walker. Having two kids. They made a choice to kids. So essentially at that point. I said look. That's the thing you wanted to hang with them you on with them. The thing is right now. Are you telling yourself that you couldn't have done both. Where's that competing commitment as you believing that both so so. Count abilities tricky. It's never as easy as to sing like you know. Check in with me every day. Text me every day or yell at me. When i don't do it you know what yourself. Plenty shane yourself. Plenty if you're listening to this new shamed yourself more than you ever need to in your entire life. Guess what it usually doesn't work or it works still certain point and then we burn out that willpower that shame muscle so it's really about getting more creative checking out competing commitments noticing the moment where you create choice and just continuing to work more and more towards that. Because it's you know chris. I can't hold you accountable. you have to learn to develop that for yourself if consistency for your house. It's great it's a great point. And the the the thing i love most is what we do here and talk about quite often start. Small small small habits And replaced bad habits with good habits. That are simple and just do one thing at a time Like you said that ten minute walk at ten minute walk inevitably becomes a fifteen twenty minute thirty minute walk because ten minutes goes by so quickly and you're like i i barely even went anywhere so start there and then all of a sudden you kind of start to crave it's like when you when you eat healthy foods and omit bad foods you get cravings for healthy foods and you lose your cravings for the bad stuff so it works like that in all areas of your life. Thank you much for listening to the strong design podcast to help our show reach more listeners. Just like you please let us know how we've changed your life by leaving a five star rating and review on. I tunes go to strong design. Podcasts dot com. That's strong by design. Podcasts dot com. Let's get back to the show. I was thinking this on the way. I was listening to another podcast. Show one of my favorites The these these two guys that we've had on our show in the past and they were just talking about how how things in. Life typically are very simple but that doesn't make them easy right. The answers and solutions to things are often quite simple but it does not mean that. The the Doing the work is it easy to do And it's just concepts are are typically simple in nature so and i just. I just love that approach to most areas of our life. Icu people say like. I wish i read more read more books. We'll start with audio books. You know if if you really wanna consume more books than we all are driving in a car or or or transportation to and from work somehow we can bluetooth a podcast or an audio book or something where we're consuming really good information. Start there and i started and once you get into that. It's hard to break. Gotta you know so. I feel like i'm i can. I can chew through podcasts and audiobooks left and right because of my commute to the office which is fantastic and so just start. Small ten fifteen twenty minute chunks of things that you know are good for you and inevitably they. Will you know increase in time. Probably and you'll start to prioritize us things in your life. you know. it's funny. You got me itching to talk a little about motivation discipline please. So so people will say to me all this people look at me and they know that i had the past that i had and they know that i'm a regular meditators. All these mindset practices. And that i always exercised and that you know for years and years. I carried our vegan. I'm not even more but like not eating processed foods and stuff that after years of doing that so people often will say judge. Wanna be like you ought to be more disciplined will often say that. It's really not about discipline. It's actually about momentum. It's actually about mindfulness. And central processing of mine experience and knowing that once i got three days working out if i go three days without it and i actually being objective about comparing To be honest with myself. I should guess about comparing experience on the days. I worked out in those days. I didn't work out always choose the workout. Because i'm more grounded more present. My motions are a little bit easier. They're more flow on probably more positive. Gestion was better might energy with better. I slept better. It's not hard right. So so i talked to people a lot about like using willpower to get started and using motivation to get started. But it's not just simply about discipline it's about building identity with doing the things that feel good. It's about building the mindfulness to actually notice the difference in your experience by decided to stop meditating. And i go out and have a couple of margaritas and a burrito and i do that two days in a row. The comparison of how. I felt those two days later compared to how i felt on the day that i actually just made choices. That were not a hardliner when he says. Don't have the the margarita right additives and guac every once in a while right sure but but the idea is. It's so clear to me when people start taking care of themselves. And i'm an example. How much better. It feels how much easier life is easier to think how much easier it is to connect life just gets easier. So what ends up happening. Is people trying to motivate with. I should do it whenever coming from should. We're coming from fear rather than love talk about. We come from love rather than fear. If i think i should do it if i if i think i should work out if i'm calling myself lazy sob. Because i didn't do this didn't do that. I didn't meant forget it. How do we access a part of you. That is in connection to how good it will feel when you do it. How much better life will be when you do it. And if you haven't done it in the past and that's when you use willpower that's when you just muscle your way through it for. I don't know a few days a week two weeks and then really bring attention on the difference in how you experience life. It's hard to go back the other way. We pass through these thresholds divorce. I passed through threshold with what i believe is possible for me when it came to love like literally love fell apart and all the sudden something clicked where i realized i was never taking. Responsibility is taking ownership. I didn't apply myself. I didn't believe in myself so once. I corrected those beliefs. It was like impossible. Go back to mild beliefs around love. Same with disciplined same. Willpower soon practices whether it be meditation. Gratitude movement practices prayer practices reading these habits. Make light so much better and feel so much better that you pass through the threshold and notice. How much better life is. It's hard to go back. Maybe you get off the wagon for a little bit here and there but you crave you crave the way. It feels the vegetable healthy food. You crave the exercise more than you need to shame yourself about. You're not doing it. Yeah it blames not getting very far. No it's such a great point it does. You don't say you know you can't eat pizza anymore hamburger or or or you know. Take two days off a working out or whatever it's sometimes your body needs a break you know if you're really active and physically fit and going after it pretty hard yes. Sometimes you need up. Saturday and sunday to kind of rejuvenate. Just play with your kids and maybe get some just some walks outside and stuff and then get back to it on monday kind of thing but You do build such a momentum in your life where when you start missing those things that you've made important then you start to feel like my energy stinks. You know. I'm at my. I'm not sleeping. Well i'm not feeling right All these other things. And i think that is so important. It's it is early on. It's the discipline in the willpower. But then when you create a net snowball rolls and rolls down the mountain and becomes a giant snowball. It's really hard to stop that. And so if we can do that in all those different areas of our life. Then we're we're we're in pretty good shape. Everything starts kind of flow in together and off of each other. You know again. That's connecting those dots of like. Oh my physical fitness now. I'm really putting in a lot of effort to my own health here but now all of a sudden now have the energy to be a better dad. You know and i have the energy to like make date night important for me and my wife and now entered all of a sudden these things all build on each other and they do impact each other and same goes for getting the rats with hard conversations with emotionally vulnerable moments with your partner with your brother with your parents or whatever they build upon each other. You notice how much more free you feel. You're showing authentically and boldly courageously in your relationships. And then you notice how much deeper you connect with the people in your life too so the pain and the discomfort that. Let's be real being risky when it comes to your emotional life in your relationships going to ask them. Cain this comforts not all sunshine and rainbows and cookies and butterflies and stuff. It's it's gonna be hard but that hard becomes easy easy easy cost to pay off much more liberated and rich life when it comes to how you spend time people spend time of yourself. No doubt man that's awesome. I really love it. I think it's a great spot to send some of our listeners to over to some of your Platforms and stuff. Can you please share with our audience where they can go to find out what you're doing in the world and and consume more of your stuff. Sure absolutely so first thing is if you have any questions about what you heard at. You're interested in what i do. More just emailed me a dude. It's like joe at drop. The armor dot com. That's a. r. m. o. r. so the might be some uk listeners. It's spelt differently but no questions or whatever but but usually the place that people hang out with me After listening to a podcast is facebook. Group that i love. I was very resistant to facebook. Groups i typically didn't hang out with them. It's one of my coaches said. Wanna go create the one that you would that light you up so i have dropped the armor dojo. It's it's a state for men. Women people of all gender identity to come and actually practice the skills of being emotionally resilient of honest sharing personal growth strategies books in practices and podcast. We're having tough conversations within this online community. And i mentioned those thirty thousand choices actually believe that we only have three every day love over fear courage over comfort in creation over consumption and so we are a group of people. It's a few hundred people right now but growing daily that actually trying to live this way that practice being this way with each other and challenge each other in our lives so join me facebook drop the armor dojo now where you can pack the skills wave being you gotta website. Joe bernstein. Coaching dot com. Or you can email me. But the most fun you'll probably been probably most frequent inconsistent content. Going be right there in that facebook group and i'm on all the other social stop. Instagram link dikla. Awesome terrific so good Some really great takeaways. And i think Some things to inspire change or at least some some thinking on the other side. I think our listeners certainly have some nuggets there and some great takeaways especially for those guys The the women are so much better at dealing with their emotions Us guys are so hesitant resistant fearful of tapping into those things. But how much more freeing it is. When you have those hard conversations with peop- the people in your life that you need to have and how much better your life is On the other side There's no doubt about it so please All you listeners. Be sure to check out. Joe at those Those social platforms that he presented to you. And that's great. Joe i just thank you so much for your insights and your wisdom and i certainly hope to to see you again down the road and and and i it's so great you're inspiring such great change and transformation in other people's lives. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and again. I'm super grateful for that. Unity to talk to you and your audience. No doubt about it. It's been it's been a great conversation and we thank you so much listeners. As i said at the start We do the show for you. It's just our way of giving back This this show is just a Such a fun thing kind of almost like a treat things that conversations that we would love to have with people that we get to share with the world and so we're just honored to have this platform and this ability to to touch people's lives all around the world so If you could at this point please give us a five star rating review Means so much to us and really really helps and we thank you so much for joining us today and be sure to check us out next week as always on wednesday at six. Am we released the next episode. Have an amazing rest of the week and even better weekend and we'll talk to you next week. God bless you. Thank you so much for listening to the strong bydesign podcast. If you found value in today's episode please subscribe so that more people can find out about our show. Plus you don't want to miss any future episodes with the amazing guests and topics we have lined up for you.

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September 8, 2019: Watergate

Today in True Crime

14:00 min | 1 year ago

September 8, 2019: Watergate

"Today is Sunday September eighth two thousand nineteen on this date in nineteen in seventy four. US President Gerald Ford announced his decision to grant his predecessor Richard Nixon a full free and and absolute pardon for all crimes committed while in office ensuring that Nixon would not be prosecuted for his role in the Watergate scandal. Welcome to today in true true crime podcast original every day. We flip back the calendar to this date years ago and recount one event from true crime history. Sorry I'm Vanessa Richardson and today were covering President Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon before we unpack the ramifications of the pardon. Let's go back to the morning of September Eighth Nineteen seventy four just before eleven. Am Carl Bernstein typed the last sentence and hit the return key sending the carriage flying back to first position without waiting for the ink to dry he snagged the freshly written article from his typewriter grabbed his coffee mug with the other hand and pushed away from his desk. The thirty year old reporter wound his way through the expensive maze of desks and filing cabinets that made up the bullpen of the Washington Post by the time he reached the desk of city editor Berry Sussman. He had finished proofreading meeting. He deposited the pages on top of a stack of other completed articles and looked around only now. Did it strike. Bernstein that the bullpen was oddly quiet to be fair. It was a Sunday but like Bernstein. Many of the post reporters had long since abandoned and and the antiquated notion of things like weekends only minutes earlier the office had been a buzz with chatter but now there was no one in sight rounding column Bernstein found his colleagues crowded around the small TV in the corner as they often did whenever there was a game on Bernstein hadn't paid much attention to sports for the past two years but he thought he deserved a break on the TV screen President Gerald Ford Sat behind his desk in the Oval Office addressing the cameras by the sound of the things he had already been speaking for several minutes and by these presents do grant a full free and absolute pardon onto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he Richard Nixon has committed for a long moment after the broadcast had ended Bernstein continue despair at the television screen. He was vaguely aware that his colleagues we're watching him and wondered if his expression betrayed his rising blood pressure but before any of his colleagues could speak. Bernstein unturned and strode back to his desk. There was only one person he could talk to right now. The phone rang six times before Woodward word finally answered. Bernstein's partner sounded as if he had just woken up. Did you see it. Bernstein asked Woodward hadn't and he asked what Bernstein was talking about. The SOB pardoned the SOB Woodward didn't ask Bernstein to clarify which Sob's Oh bees he was referring to there was no need the reporters had spent the last two years covering the Watergate scandal for the Washington Post they had been responsible for some of the biggest scoops early on when virtually every other newspaper was ignoring the story it had all started on June seventeenth nineteen seventy two when five men were caught breaking into the offices of the Democratic National National Committee with bugging equipment by tracing checks deposited in the bank accounts of the Burglars Woodward and Bernstein discovered that the men and had been paid through Nixon's own reelection committee the break in and ensuing scandal soon became known as Watergate after to the DC building complex that housed DNC headquarters Nixon of course vociferiously denied that any of his men had been involved even when Woodward and Bernstein discovered that Nixon's top aides had approved funds for the break in Nixon continued to deny that he'd lead had any knowledge of it but nearly two years later a Senate investigation and special prosecutor forced the president to release tapes of conversations recorded at the White House revealing that he had been lying the whole time beginning within days of the Watergate break-in Nixon had orchestrated vast cover up of the scandal he had personally squashed and FBI investigation into the break in and I paid the Watergate burglars to stay silent about the White House's role facing certain impeachment Nixon finally resigned on August ninth nineteen seventy four and Gerald Ford became the thirty eighth president of the United States that had been one month ago since Nixon's resignation Bernstein had walked into the post each morning hoping to hear the news that the former president was being indicted now that would never happen after a moment of silence silence. Woodward asked Bernstein if he thought Ford and Nixon had made a deal. Maybe Nixon had only stepped aside because he expected a pardon. Bernstein thought Woodward was being naive. Of course there was a deal. This was the final perfect corruption of Watergate dozens dozens of Nixon's top aides and advisors were going to jail over the scandal but the man behind it all would never be held accountable. Woodward reminded Bernstein that according to a nineteen fifteen supreme court decision by accepting the pardon Nixon was technically admitting guilt old sure said Bernstein technically but it wouldn't stop him from denying any responsibility for the cover-up just as he had all all along there wasn't much else to say Woodward asked Bernstein to let him know if there were any more developments and then hung up for a moment. Bernstein sat staring at his typewriter since they'd started working together two years ago talking to Woodward had helped Bernstein clarify Fayaz thoughts but now he wasn't sure how he felt. He was still angry to be sure but he also felt somehow lighter. Berry sussman poked his head out of his office shouted at Bernstein. The editor wanted to know if he had time to take on a developing developing story. Bernstein grabbed his jacket. Maybe Ford was right that it was time to move on for the past two years. Watergate head had hung over Bernstein like cloud coloring everything in his life. Maybe it was for the best that it was finally over. There would always be other stories to chase coming up. We'll discuss Ford's just occasions for issuing the pardon and the the political ramifications that followed now back to the story during his address to the nation on September Eighth Eighth President Ford explained his decision to pardon Nixon by saying he believed it was the only way for the nation to heal from the wounds of Watergate. He also said he believed that. Nixon and his family had suffered enough. Whatever his intentions the fallout from President Ford's decision decision to pardon Nixon was immediate and intense his press secretary biographer and close friend Jerry Ter Horst resigned in protest later that day within a week of issuing the pardon his public approval rating had dropped from seventy one percent sent to forty nine percent. Many Americans saw the pardon as a statement that the president of the United States was above the law others suspected that there had been some kind of corrupt deal between Ford and Nixon one month after issuing the pardon Ford was called before the House Judiciary Committee to explain his decision responding to questions from representative Elizabeth Holtzman he stated. I was absolutely lutely convinced then as I am now that if we had had an indictment trial conviction and anything else that transpired after this that the attention of the president the Congress and the American people would have been diverted from the problems that we have to solve and that was the principal reason for my granting the pardon despite his insistence he'd made his decision with the best interest of the country in mind. Ford grappled with a suspicious and hostile public for the remainder of his presidency in nineteen seventy six when he lost his reelection bid to Democratic challenger Jimmy Carter. Many political commentators cited the Nixon pardon as the moment Americans turned against the President and Washington Post Reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein were among those initially actually infuriated by the pardon several decades later their opinions on the matter of changed considerably in a two thousand eleven interview on MSNBC'S ABC's morning. Joe Bernstein stated that he had come to see Ford's decision to pardon Nixon as the right thing to do and an act of courage courage today. Many historians have come to a similar conclusion in nineteen seventy four the United States was facing a flailing economy Konami and was still mired in the Vietnam War as well as the Cold War with the Soviet Union Americans were understandably exhausted from two years years of Watergate without Ford's pardon they likely would have faced at least three more years of a highly public and divisive investigation nation and no one could predict how the country would react to the conviction and imprisonment of former president in two thousand one. Ford was awarded the profile in courage award by the John F Kennedy Library during the award ceremony Senator Edward M Kennedy said that time has a way of clarifying past events and now we see that President Ford was right his courage and dedication to our country made it possible for us to begin the process of healing and put the tragedy of Watergate behind us for more information on Watergate check out the episodes episodes of conspiracy theories as well as the espionage episodes on deep throat which all covered different aspects of the Watergate scandal. Thanks for listening to today in true crime. I'm Vanessa Richardson. If you enjoyed this episode you can find me hosting the PARKAS originals serial killers cults and not guilty among other shows today in true crime is a podcast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all other podcast originals goals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream today in true crime on spotify. Just open the YEP and type today in true crime in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing gene reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at park cast network. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow. In in true crime today and true crime was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler sound design by Kerry Murphy With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro Paul Muller Maggie Admire Carly Madden and Travis Davis Clark this episode of Today True Crime is written by Andrew Kelleher. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

Carl Bernstein Richard Nixon President Ford president Bob Woodward Ford United States Joe Bernstein Watergate Washington Post Vanessa Richardson Berry Sussman editor White House spotify facebook reporter
Bari Weiss Is Right, Part II: Philosophy Schmosiphy

Blocked and Reported

1:07:15 hr | 6 months ago

Bari Weiss Is Right, Part II: Philosophy Schmosiphy

"Katie have a dog jesse. Just i got a sense that you had a dog. How's your daughter doing doing really good as you may know. I recently started a project. Writing about most. Specifically writing about moses testicles. We talked about it a little bit on. I think on the patriot episode last week. I'm not sure if we've disclosed this. Bit of new breaking information on the on the main feed But yeah so. I started a subset newsletter. It's all the rage right now. Called moose nuggets and it's really it's really taking off. I got like. I think i got like thirty billion views last night. Holy shirt yeah. Like thirty billion gumede to everyone on the planet came to your newsletter like four five times absolutely. i mean. It's just been really stunning. I think i've just like blown. Glenn greenwald and taibbi and you just out of the water because everybody wants to know what's going on with moses nuggets so there's moose nuggets subsets accommodates centers on the question of whether you should chopped a little nuts. Offer it exactly so it sounds it. Sounds like a joke. I get that. I think that a lot of people when i said that i was starting a subset newsletter. I was calling. it moves nuggets. A lot of people assume that this was just like just like hers. Log being joker ha ha ha but this is real it has actually been really interesting and i'm realizing over the course of my reporting that this that this issue like whether or not to dissect your dog it could actually make the turf. Wars look like a fucking like day at the water park. There are crazy crazy people involved in the animal world as you would expect and the newsletter. It's going to be about not just my particular dogs nuts. it's going to be about dog. Rescues and animal breeding and it turns out. There's almost some like conspiracy level shit going on in this world so it's been really interesting to talk to people involved in this world and i was talking to my dad. Some people probably know this but my dad is this is he's an anthropologist. Which is the study of human animal interactions. And he's pretty well known in this field. He has a book called. Somebody loves somebody hate somebody what's called. Somebody loves somebody hate some. We eat why. It's so hard to think straight about animals. Actually there's a new edition coming out this spring. Which i think it'd be really good and so i was talking to him about this. Because he's he's like my source of all the all of the data and who'd go to and have you talked to you and he pointed out to me that about like less than one percent of the population like really really gives a shit about trans issues but a lot of people took care about dog issues. So i'm realizing now that i'm like kicking a hornet's hornets nest with with most. But of course that's like my favorite thing to do. So it's gonna be fun. Yeah so it's gonna turn out like you're ready on trans stuff was like a tiny little footnote and the reason people will hate. You will turn out to be much more. Animal related exactly. There's a woman named bronwyn dickey who i know from north carolina. And she wrote a book about pit bulls a couple years ago and it was sort of pro bowl book really but people really don't like pills and they want they want laws passed like basically banning pit bulls in different cities and the response was so vitriol. She had to actually have security at her book readings. Jesus well things have clearly got an senior and more common sure. Yeah totally totally. So it's been it's been really interesting reporting on this and i'm excited about it. It's been. This is the first thing that i've written since co really just like retired for eight months. And i'm like stepping back into it. It's all free. I hope people check it out moose. Nuggets dot subset dot com. There was also. There was a buzzfeed article. By joe bernstein. About how crazy. I could be mixing up pit bulls rottweilers which is probably like the dog discourse equivalent of miss gender but as well like some dog dog greet people have very strong feelings over. Just how fucking insane. The internet is. I'll finally to that included. But yeah this is. It's good that you'll finally get a new group of people who you piss off horribly. So i'm looking forward to that. I can't wait. Yeah it's been too long in the meantime. You are the co host of blocked in reported i to also am that. That was a sentence i get. I get segue. Jessica talk good. This washer reported. What are we can talk about this week. Eighty you're supposed to introduce yourself air. I don't know whatever. I'm jay jesse jesse double katie herzog. And we are talking about this week. What are we talking about this week. Jesse me tell me. If i if i don't know the answer to a question i know exactly who to go. We're going to talk a little bit about this outbreak of outbreak of gender stuff. Which sounds like a sexually transmitted disease got a nasty case and having a real bad flare up of gender stuff just involving video game. This is a story. We talked a little bit about the on the patrons only episode recently. But there's just like new twist. And i just want to. I have sort of a rant about this. And i know you have strong feelings. We'll talk about that a little. Where mostly gonna focus on a big new york magazine article about the inner workings of the new york times and as so often the case it turned out the two of us we're talking. Who would ever have predict shocking. So and then. This story actually ties into another media story that dropped like a half hour before we recorded. We're recording friday november thirteenth. That is mad iglesias one of the co founders of. Vox is leaving to start his own. Subset that is hopefully not going to be. Mostly about dark testicles. Because if so you're only be one sub stack just about testicles okay so we are less patriots. We talked about this story involving helen lewis. Who is a british feminist writer staff writer at the atlantic. Her voice was removed from a video game called watchdogs legion because she is supposedly to problematic about gender stuff. That's that's a fair summary right right so apparently within the game there was like a podcast within the game which i find very rude. You already have a game. You don't need a podcast too. But so in the game helen was was voicing some i guess it was some sort of character in the game and she had a little spiel and the game about antifascism and then when there are some complaints primarily about an article that helen wrote in the times of london and the headline was a man can't just say he turned into a woman. I would like to point out here. That writers rarely right there headlines and this was also we mentioned this on a patriot episode that this also behind a paywall so the likelihood that the employees of video game company or the people who have been writing about this actually at the piece i think is probably pretty low. The headline is sort of inflammatory. But once again the headline and the pieces about gender like gender recognition act in the uk was recently sort of. I guess it was shut down at failed but according to the gender recognition act instead of going through some sort of process of changing your legal sex. You would like self declare. I am a man. I am a woman and then you would be legally entitled to feel only spaces or male only spaces including prisons in domestic violence shelters and etc etc etc. Yeah so i mean there. There's some genuine complexity here. We're not gonna get into because it's like british law but yeah the short version of it is. There is a proposed reform to the gender recognition. Act to make it easier for trans people to transition legally which i don't know based on what i've read about that that strikes me as reasonable. I think right you know it was just. It's always been harder for trans people to transition legally than it should be in many cases like sometime dec- years long process in the uk. Trans people who don't have a gender recognition certificate already have protections under the twenty ten equality act so like right off the bat. There's some confusion here where people think like unless it transfers has a certificate. They are devoid of rights. That's not true. The other thing is like the reason the headline was phrased in that inflammatory. Way is like the self. Id proposal really was like you go in you. Fill out a form and that's it and some people think that that's what the reform should be. Most british people do not agree with south a polling. We have on. This suggests that well people are broadly in favor of trans people being treated in accordance with their gender identity. The idea that all it should be is like a declaration and then you are legally the other sex. That's not a popular view. So helen lewis is a four hundred word column. It's laying this stuff out the headline again people. I understand why people see it. As inflammatory it is accurately describing what this proposal was since that headline this proposal has just fallen flat like in like self ideas basically dead now in part and a link to this in the show notes. Because people aren't into it. I think there's probably a lot more support for other ways of making the process easier. That don't go all the way to self. Id there's some middle ground there But the point. I made on the patriot. Episode is like to fire someone for holding a majority opinion is really fucking bad and toxic and this. This story has just sort of metastasized since then because rock paper shotgun is a old popular video game website that covered this and they cover this in a way. That was sympathetic to ubisoft. Decision to fire. Helen lewis one of their contributors. A guy named tim stone. He's been contributing to rock paper shotgun for thirteen years. In the comments section said he was somewhat sympathetic to hell lewis and he went back and forth and pete with people was respectable about it just like that. he's john. Rock paper shotgun announces not. They don't name them by name but everyone knows who it is that he can no longer contribute to rock paper shotgun eighth thirteen year freelance career with a major outlet. They are a major outlet in the video game. Space is over because he disagrees on self. Id or he has some so-called gender critical leanings because he holds the majority opinion you hold seeing majority opinion yes and and people can look at the stats for themselves and the this survey from yougov asked the questions very specifically about should someone have access to like certain female spaces even if they haven't had medical procedures that that's what self idea comes down to you because you're basically saying if someone declares remainder woman they are regardless of these other usual ask requirements or criteria. So this is something i just think. We're seeing a lot of in our corner of journalism and complaints. You and i have better corner of journalism are if anything more intense within video games because a lot of hobbyist spaces are just sort of more politically radical more angry for lack of a better word. I just. I really wanna lay embark down here that if you're in a position where people can't state majority opinions for fear of serious professional ramifications that that's really fucked up and there's real cowardice among other journalists did not stand up and say so right and that's not to say that all majority opinions are correct. It's now we can maybe ten years from now. We'll be ashamed. We held these positions. We need to be open that possibility shirt but this is a debate that needs to be had. The gender recognition act does have real life consequences especially for women in vulnerable positions. Women imprisons women in domestic violence shelters women and rape shelters. It is a you know. This is not just like the radical feminist. Who are who are afraid of this. And i do think that some of the some of the fears may be over. I don't think that there's going to be a rash of people just like self in order just to like you know sort of like. I don't know a thing or whatever i don't this is something. We get more emails from people who the people really hate us. Don't bother to email us but we do whenever this comes up. We get emails from people are like no. This is a real threat. You're not taking seriously i. I think both you and i think that the idea that huge numbers of people would just like self ide- for nefarious purposes. Probably unlikely. I think small numbers will do it. I don't think huge numbers will do it when this happens. Oftentimes it becomes a new story Because there are there is there's pushback because people are uncomfortable with people want segregated spaces which i understand. There's a there's a mexican restaurant in seattle at the street from my house there. I really liked it and go there a lot. And when they opened up a new location i went to the new location and their bathrooms were gender neutral. And this wasn't the sort of bathroom where you have like. Every stall is like is separate you know and they have a like its own washroom or whatever like a head to floor kim self-contained saying this was just like a mcdonald's bathroom right. Just a regular bathroom and those bathrooms gender neutral. So i could go in the bathroom and there could be a man shitting beside me and maybe i should be comfortable with that. But i'm not comfortable with that and even worse like thinking about someone like an older person like an older woman who has been like using the bathroom for eighty years a women's room which feels like a like for lack of a better term like a safe space to like be like washing her hands or ping or whatever besides some do taking shit like it does feel uncomfortable and maybe like maybe that maybe progress would be less division between the sexes in this particular way. But that's not the world that we live in and so in this attempt to be inclusive of this like like minority group of people. What they've done is make the majority uncomfortable and like there's some real tension there you know i like i like i think trans people should be able to use the bathroom that they identify with. I do believe that. But i also think that if you're a transplant who has done nothing to change your physical appearance like you identify as a female but you have a beard and you're just like a male and for anybody on the street would look at you and see mail if you walk into a bathroom. You're going to be making women uncomfortable and people just need to be cognizant and most trans people are would never do something like that because they realize it's violating the social norm. I should also say like. I just realized thinking about this that i might get in trouble for what i just said about the bathrooms at the mexican restaurant white house my house when i'm saying like sitting beside a man i'm not talking about a translate i'm talking about a literal mail like someone who identifies as a male because they've made the i'm sorry to go back to this but because they made the bathrooms themselves gender-neutral. Everybody is using like they're they're not sex segregated the specifically transpeople. That's about like just like you know. Six people maybe at some point if this is going to keep coming up we should just have like a british legal expert on. But but there's not in the uk there's not like major static over. It's not a major issue because my understanding is except with exceptions like trans people can already use the bathroom. There just hasn't been an issue. I think in part because most people are just trying to live as the other sex. Like there's this focus on edge cases that are very attention getting like buzzfeed. Running an article like this lesbian has appeared. Doesn't care when it's clearly just a male person who's not transitioning but has you know identified as a different sex. I think there's a way to be respectful of all of this but also acknowledged this is an actual policy debate or was before it fell flat and like you people need to be able to express majority of us just has to be like sort of a. I don't know like a red line you could bring in like there's sort of troll ish examples like do you think should be able to people to be able to debate slavery any example like that you come up with there was actual there work. They were abolitionists. They were literally freed slaves arguing for the freedom. Obviously you also needed these civil war but in like like the gay rights movement like yes. There was a massive debate over over radical activism and there was debate like there was conversation and guess what it fucking irked like debate work people coming out like the like there were lots of forces. It wasn't just like there was like one debate and all of a sudden people like let's get married or whatever but yeah so that was a part of the process was was having a genuine new bait and realizing that people have deeply held convictions about these issues and some minds will change. If you haven't honest debate that's an important part of this. When i was in college we had like a floor. Wide vote about having not male and female rooms gender neutral So i think that's been the trajectory for awhile. You know no longer. Late floor bathrooms or for so it was like it. Had the boys room at one end of the girls at the other and the thinking was like don't make people do a long walk. And i think i was the only this was like fucking two thousand three. I think i was one of the only people who actually still a little uncomfortable with that but people at least pretended they weren't so it's like i think you'd like twenty or thirty years. Gender neutral bathrooms will no longer be surprising. But i agree with you that this is just how most people grew up in what they're used to and i you know people are allowed to feel uncomfortable. It's the what was that that showed like legal show in the ninety s with the woman at the curly hair should look this up. Legal show ninety s curly hair turf. Not practice not long alley mcbeal. They had gender. neutral bathrooms. non sex segregated bathrooms and ally mcbeal and it did seem like what the hell this is wild. So how how was it like. Did you feel uncomfortable using the bathroom with women in the bathroom. I think i got used to it fairly quickly my me. At nineteen and twenty there is just such a pile of neuroses and probably undiagnosed mental illness that that was the lisa my concern so yeah but yeah it was definitely at first. It took some getting used to for sure. I don't wanna. I don't wanna like be in a bathroom. Alamance taking a shit. I'm sorry i just don't that's maybe it's sexist. That may i thought. Well we're gonna get a lot of heat for males shit twitter. Bring it on boys. She's always we toilet use number of fans. I've just been died to take up with you in the room. This is this has been. What's keeping them going. I wonder how that affected masturbation rates in the bathroom bar context. I one more thing about this So helen lewis. It turns out she wrote the script. She was speaking on like on the on the video game podcast thing and so they replaced voice but they kept the same language so now is just another voice reading her words that shiro and be put out a statement that sort of let's say they i think they sort of fudged a little bit. Let me review part of their statement while the endgame podcasters are following a pre approve script and are not speaking in their own name or with their own opinions. We understand this. Collaboration itself maybe seen as offensive and we deeply regret any hurt. This caused okay. Sp- following a pre approved script. She their fault. she's falling. Appre appreciate that she wrote. That's bullshit. Wow so the erased. A woman's voice but kept her words. They literally erase all women. Well i think they probably replace her with another woman so they just swapped in another woman. You know it's fine. We're all the woman. I'm assuming that it could be whatever could be. It could be a a non binary gender neutral gender fluid pan sexual actual for furby for all. I know i I violated my own rule against being an asshole on twitter because like one of the people who celebrated this like quote retweeted rock. Paper shotgun was thank. You is this I don't know some some games jerk. I don't know who he is but he someone sent me a tip that back in two thousand eight. He just casually used the The t slur to refer to transfer to the teeth. Ller i am not usually the sort of i was like. Oh my god you used a bad word in two thousand. But if you're going to celebrate a fucking one of your peers getting fired for shit like this fully. Expect people to combeback through and i just have. I have no patience for the sort of journalist or developer. Whatever who wants to see other people fired. I think that's immensely fucked up. I don't want journalism to have people like that in it. i think they're like a terrible pernicious influence. It is such a popular view. That people should get fired over nothing. Should we get the people who wanna get. People fired fired. We should we should whip up a mob so this reminds me of course of his ongoing conflict over abigail book. The book is called irreversible damage. I haven't read it. So i won't comment on it. I've listened to a lot. I won't comment on the content but have listened to a bunch of interviews with abigail. And it's a book about digi rapid onset genesis for reading subtitle which is much more inflammatory. What what is it. Reversible damage the transgender craze. Which is not my style presented the stuff. But i think that's what a lot of the controversy comes from. Yeah i don't think it was a wise title because this is it's hard to have a nuance conversation with the headline like or title like that. Because a lot of people are just going to freak the fuck out about the title and not actually read the book itself. I mean they were going to do that regardless but also a lot of people will view things in that light so maybe it will make people read the book. Sure have different effects. I wonder who the publisher was. I bet it was a conservative publisher. The publisher was which is like a legendary conservative policy house and according to i think there might be some bullshit to the way amazon. Slice and dice disease. These different categories but it is number fifty one in all books that has to be a lot given. How many books are amazon number. One in lgbt demographics studies never wanted lgbtq. That is funny. That is funny. Congratulations apple the reason. I say i think it was a probably a conservative publisher because there's almost no way of a mainstream publisher would publish a book like this. Do you wanna talk about your shopping. Your transplant yeah. I know i mean. I i At some point. I'll tell the story of of my own Attempts to potentially write a book about the stuff maybe not just yet. I mean it didn't work. And i think there's an interesting story there but yeah let's let's dip got for now okay. So long story short like basically. There's almost no way. A mainstream publisher would take a book like this. I think i think maybe the more important point is there is a market for. Oh my god. The trans activists are stealing her daughters. And there's a market for my child who was born two minutes ago. Just said they're a woman there's not much market for treating this like any sort of other bioethical or cultural or scientific conversation with actual reporting and new not that abigail. Smoke doesn't have reporting. But he and i heard on rogin. I understood why people would be offended. But some of what she said. Just lined up with what i've heard. This kind of stuff does happen. But yeah i don't think there's much market for like just seeing discussion on this especially after my atlantic article. Just like immolated everything. This is actually your jesse. So the reason that we're talking about this now is because yesterday on thursday. The book was being sold target and a trans person. I assume complain about it on twitter and target responded so here is the tweet that they put out. I think the trans community deserves a response from at target at target as to why they're selling spoke about the about quote the transgender epidemic sweeping the country trigger warning transphobia. And then the ass target account response and said thank you so much for bringing this to our attention we have removed this book from our assortment. So that tweet targets response has six hundred fifty eight legs in seven thousand six hundred replies of so quite the ratio so target like this is on the complaint of a handful of people. There's like two or three. I can see to at least complaints about this book. There might have been more but like small handful of people and target decides to take this book off their shelves. There's a censorious attitude in the air. But of course any incident like this is only going to drive sales in the bark so it doesn't work of course it's totally streisand effect. But just this idea that companies like that responsive to customer complaints. It's sort of like. I have a problem with the bible. I think a lot of the bible is like deeply misogynistic. It's like pro slavery like it's like very anti anti shrimp. I think there's a lot of passage in the book about how you shouldn't eat shellfish. Should i like if i complain to target. Are they gonna take the bible off their shelves. Women women are being bought and sold in the bible the slavery there's entire tribes being wiped out by vengeful god. The bible is the original. Problematic canceled book. And i also don't like. I don't like sweatpants that say qc on the. But should i complain to target about that. You know what else. I don't like the job. I've joked that covers a so. Nobody heading jesse please. I need him but so this idea. That target should like respond to every customer can play with like by yanking a book author shops. It's ridiculous and a lot of people say. Let's just like the market ideas. We'll no it's not the market of ideas like one person or two people complaining about this does not mean that nobody else should be able to fucking by it. I mean the people who say that's just the market of ideas and people should be open to criticism. Don't actually believe in the marketplace ideas because then when you turn around and point out the book is doing well and amazon till explained that that's why the market is evil and smart people like them to intervene in what people are allowed to read. So i tweeted about this and then a bunch of people said well. The book is transphobic. And i said oh okay so you've read it no. Of course they have read it. You know like there's just this assumption you know somebody says it's transphobic than therefore transphobic on rogaine. She came across. I'm after this. Read this book. Because it's now part of the conversation but on rogan. She came across as milder than the title would suggest and again this is redmi. It's like a conservative. Pretty christian publisher. Yeah she worked for the wall street journal or wrote for the wall street journal. She's not a feminist think by any means l. Pluck grosses has read it and she had a little bit of twitter. Back and forth with helen. Someone whose opinion on this stuff. I i trust to be fair and even-handed because people come for her on both sides and she said that she disagreed with the end of the book with main sort of Sort of more essential positions about like the role of women so but not on the trans stuff. She said that the trans stuff was really like it. Seemed like backed up by evidence and and treated compassionately. Let me see the house. I wanna talk this fucking hell. Louis story just got very mad online about it. Let's move on and we'll be right back in a moment katie. That's you know my favorite hobby other than screaming at people on twitter is lossing. I would fly all day every day every time i go to the dentist. He always says the same thing he says. Jesse you need to stop flying so much you could die. i'm serious. I always respond the same way. Dentist i don't care the problem is buying. Floss is a nightmare. I have to prepare a bunch of tweets explaining that i'm locking off and won't be back for at least ten minutes. I have to get up off my couch. Find my keys leave my apartment wade through a throng of screaming fans just begging me to touch them. Walk all the way to the day. That's three blocks away. Choose from eight thousand brands of floss. Crappy inferior floss. Dig three dollars. 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That's like you can't even get a pumpkin spice For five dollars these days. it's insane. It's insane insane five dollars. Just five buccaneers. Shipping itself is free. So you can save money while sitting on your couch. Tweeting about jesse's transphobic bring delight your everyday brushing and joined the over five million miles brushing quip starting at just twenty five dollars go to get quipped dot com slash bar right now and you'll get your first rebel free. That's your first refill. Free at get quip dot com slash bar. Pod spelled g. e. t. q. q. u. so called e. t q dot com slash bar. Pod quip better health mate simple katie. Do you remember the glorious bygone days of you know. i can't remember. When was the. When was the tom cotton op. Ed times twenty. Twenty twenty twenty. Because i don't. I'm gonna get the exact date on this important okay so back in june when we were coming out of the first wave of the pandemic senator. Tom cotton wrote in the times that we should send in the military to places where like rioting and looting was getting out of control even if governors in want us to and as you may recall recall our q. u. a. l. as you may recall this caused a firestorm within the new york times. I certainly did a bunch of people. Staffers at the new york times tweeted and unison. This caller puts black staffers. And or something like that. yeah. I was very specifically saying this. This call him literally endangers their safety huge blow up within the time. Do you think there's been any like there's been any meetings subsequently like it's three months later. We're any black. Staffers actually put in danger by that up. So what i heard Tip of this reported anywhere from one of the times. People emailed me but that that this was The phrase it that way for hr purposes. Like if you say. I disagree with this column. Hr has no role if you say. This caller makes the workplace unsafe. It might have a role. That's what i heard happened. Which would suggest a bunch of people working for the well. I don't know what was going on. The heads of individuals staffers with like it was very hard for most of us outside of the time to understand how this column could have put people in danger. Maybe it was. Paper cuts was imprint. Not even paper. Because i think it was just digital. Maybe i strain. I think it was ice train. Show so there's also this there was a big shuffling at the top of the editorial page and into this conversation. Step barry weiss the at the time much reviled by her colleagues staff editor on the editorial page. She did a tweet storm saying that what was going on a was evidence of this divide between mostly forty plus staffers who are more committed to liberalism and mostly under forty staffers more committed to woke his them for lack of a better word. And we'll we'll get more to divide in a minute. She was like fucking pilloried by her college for suggesting that this divide existence. There you could say pizza is my favorite food. And she would get pilloried by her colleagues. They would say well when you were at columbia. You said lasagna was your favorite food. You tried to get a pizza chef. Exactly 'cause uses a desire deep cuts for the nerds so okay at the time. We recorded a episode. That i think probably still is one of our most listened to where the was right there in the title. Barry weiss is right or something like that. You can't expect me to actually look up the name of the episode right exactly. But we had barry right. Barry weiss is right in the title. Because you and i both thought bear weiss's right based on our conversations with people the times and elsewhere because this isn't just at the time we thought that this this divide is very very real and you've seen this firsthand the stranger. Yeah bitch about all this this all the time. But let's just like the t. l. d. r. version. Is that basically like everybody. Under the age of like forty or like thirty six thought that i was a little nutty turf. Hitler and the old people like me like is 'cause my attitude is more like old school gen-x like alter weekly paper attitude and that was not the attitude of the younger staffers and this is not just writers. Also talking about like design team and advertising and calendar all of these these parts of the paper that aren't directly involved in the content generation which we'll get to in a second. It turns out way more power than i ever expected within the new york times. Yep so this controversy is back in the form of a big article. A new york magazine by reeves wedeman. He's a very talented reporter It's just about. I mean here's how it appears on the page in front of me times change. In the trump years the new york times became less dispassionate and more crusaded sparking a rod debate over the papers future and it's basically just like a journalist. Doing what i was hoping a journalist would do and and just taking us from basically the cotonou incident or or really from trump's election to the present explaining these internal culture wars of the times what they mean and some of them are more complicated than like woke verse traditionally liberal or whatever but what it comes down to is that barry weiss assessment was correct. This this opinion she had that caused her colleagues too so viscerally hate her seems to be true he wedeman says so in his call in his article he quotes people who think that. And there's a real divide there with regard to questions about like what news is and what evidence is and what the role of journalists are and i mean. There's a lot unpack here but as you alluded to one of the most interesting parts of this is a lot of the pressure to be a lit a bit less journalistic. Because that's when i think it is less journalistic more. More activists is coming from like designers and programmers. Who used to work at google or amazon or uber. Yeah real social justice warriors. Exactly yeah people who. Whose first job out of college was to work for google but who clearly loves social justice so much they should influence how the times covers the president. I don't want to go on a rant about this. But people who really have have no fucking business telling reporters or editors or any of the editorial staff how to do their fucking job and they're just a bunch of these twentysomethings. According to this article you know the election of trump freak people out and it made people want to be more involved in social justice which which makes sense to me but a fair number of people from these like you know very for profit startup world places came to work at the time and they have very different ideas about what journalism is as. You're saying they they don't really have journalistic ideals so that that's part of the cause of the problem. The other causes are like in certain ways. The times has been sclerotic. Not you know it's taken many meetings to just get the call him. The times to call obvious lies lies and to adapt and certain other ways because it has traditionally been a stodgy institution but overall there is a something of any like small-scale civil war going on there. You know over the question of what a newspaper should be right. So there's a couple things going on here and we should. We should mention that. Like most of this is happening on their slack channel. So for people who don't know slack is like an instant messaging platform that a lot of offices us and it can be really convenient like it takes like you don't have to email your colleagues and stuff and way for them to respond. It's also a way of like forcing people to work all the fucking time because you have slack on your phone and so if your boss lexi with like ten pm well you have to respond to it not everywhere but this is like frequently and places that i've worked that so there's a slack channel at the time called newsroom feedback and this became a place where people from outside. The newsroom would give their opinions on the newsroom. I think this is bad. In part because traditionally there's always been a really strong firewall between departments like using and the newsroom and the reason for that is to maintain journalistic and this existed the stranger. Like a stranger. Someone would write. Something and advertiser would get pissed off. I wouldn't find out about it until like months later. When i heard like in like by the water cooler that a pot shop had dropped us because somebody said they were guilty of like that. There's just like there. That's it's really important for the newsroom. To separate from advertising and so if you have advertisers going giving newsroom feedback and saying like oh this you know this is like going to hurt our ad campaign any any like responsible. Newsman would say like shut the fuck up. We don't even talk to you. We're on different floors there. There's a firewall but slack. The slack channel allowed anybody to give their opinion on reporting. I mean this is the idea that there would be a slack channel where i could go tell the tell the like back end developer. What he's doing wrong is just crazy but for some reason. It's like okay for people to give major feedback about their colleagues work in this particular like very public or public within the institution way like i would delete the fucking soccer if i were in charge of the new york times. It should be clear. The article doesn't give specific examples of advertisers per se. But it does. It doesn't clearly you know people whose role was just not aditorial Are you know critiquing their colleagues loudly in the slack channels and the so that the way this was all laid out by one reporter was institutionalists on one side. There's insurrections on the other institutionalists like love working times they feel strongly about its journalistic mission. They're willing to slowly climb the ladder. Insurrectionist don't particularly care about work at the time they don't think there's any inherent value in the times per se and they're sort of more activists and social justice. I wish this magazine article had gotten a bit more into the specific like ideological divides. Because i think like for example that they caught an op-ed thing that you saw people saying this on twitter that relied on this idea that if members of marginalized groups say something. That thing is true. I mean as we both know that they don't actually believe that because if it's like a black conservative saying if they'll criticize it like people really were saying like what. We should listen to black staffers when they say this call makes them physically unsafe. There was no need to like actually make an argument about how newspaper column made anyone and safe. It was just like you need to believe this group of people and it's not even this group. It's a small subset of these group. This group who works at the time that who said this. That's the kind of thing. We're like a traditional old school news. Reporter would be like well no. It's not my job to just believe stuff because someone said so. Evidence is important so to me. that's an example of like an actual ideological divide between the different sides in these conflicts raging newsrooms across the country that we should maybe talk about and debate. The best part of this came so one of the sort of quote unquote problematic people at the time as a recent higher in lisburn She's like sort of a vendor like she's twenty nine. She now has a staff job at the opinion page and she has two children. I haven't given birth. I haven't personally given birth to a single child which is crazy at my age. Not yet fuck you know. This is great. I like her a lot and one of the reasons. She's a good writer. She's like she's not really into orthodoxy for the sake of orthodoxy. She's a catholic leftist. She has smart critiques of certain trends in progressive thinking. So there's this moment in a slack channel where everyone's fighting bruni uploads a pdf of a work by john rawls and important liberal philosopher from the twentieth century. She says the following. This is a quote. What we're having is really a philosophical conversation and it concerns the unfinished business of liberalism. I think that all human beings are born philosophers. That is that we all have an innate desire to understand what our world means and what we owe to one another and how to live good lives so to me. that's like the spirit of i'm in journalism because i am fascinated by the world and i want to talk about the stuff that i want to debate things and not just be told to shut up or listen to some voice just to listen to voice. Here's a response. She got from one of her colleagues philosophies schmuck rotor researcher at the time who slack avatar was the logo for the hamburger. Chain jack in the box. We're at a barricades moment in our history. You decide which side are you on. Just i should deliver a clear message on the off. Chance mr jack in the box avatars. Go fuck yourself. Just shouldn't be a journalism. What's funny is a times person. I think disagrees with me on this stuff. Dnb and said that. This person's is actually like nearing retirement. I had pictured like a twenty something but apparently it's an older researcher. Whatever age you are go fuck yourself you. There's so many people who would kill even just for that entry level researcher job at the times to respond to a colleague saying there are thorny issues here to be worked out carefully and philosophically. With what side are you on like. Just become an activist. There's better and higher paying work in pr for example I just thought that attitude captured at all right. This is the this is the fundamental issue. Is the new york times a newspaper or is it activism. That's the question this is like. This is a result of the donald trump election and people like the the the peace mention that something like ninety one percent of time subscribers a call themselves democrats. And so i'm sure. Within within the the walls of the times it's probably equal if not higher number. An the people who who who don't identify as democrats are probably not just like ross douthat but also know the dnc members or whatever so this is a a an like an overwhelmingly homogeneous politically homogenous institution. And of course with the election of donald trump like a lot of people. There's this impulse to everything that you can't fight back but there has to be some higher ideal and if you ruin the paper to resist this president who is going to be gone in four years. It's not coming back. Like i think the times. The times reputation among my in my head has fallen so much in the last four years because they have shown themselves unable to do the basic work of being a objective of or at least appearing to be objective. Because they don't care about that anymore right well so i mean this. Get to like when the tom. Cotton staffers dangerous. They happened you and me and a bunch of people like publicly and privately being like we. This makes no sense. What are they doing. It's creepy doll tweet. This in unison. Daniel ockrent who was the papers first public editor early us. I think james ben firing was as meaningful for how the papers perceived as jason blair was jason blair big plagiarism scandal. You know. I think there's something to that. I think the times really lost a lot of credibility and a lot of people's is by the way they handle this and yeah i just i. I wish we could drag some of these ideological debates out in the open instead of having it. Just be like. Who side are you on. Do you support black staffers. Or i mean. Obviously this idea that if you don't agree with specific claim that doesn't make sense. You're against racial justice pro-trump. I was also i was a little bit personally triggered by some that stuff about like developers and other ranchos chiming in on editorial staff. Because of the experience. I had myself i tell us about it. I so there's a thing in times columns that seems to happen fairly frequently where they just say stuff. That's completely false. There's not much like quality control there. At least you can notice like pretty basic errors pretty consistently One of those errors had to do with my work it had to do with my a. This will never fucking die. Atlantic article about transitioning trans youth and a trans writer. Just like wrote stuff about my views. That were not only false but i said the opposite in the article so i i shocked that that would be very surprising. I must have been the first and only time. Yes never been misrepresentative. Lord knows it was frustrating. A point i made so transparently in the piece. Saying i believe x. And then the new york times jesse single believes the opposite of acts. Anyway i wrote an email to like one of the top editors there. I was like you know this is just wrong and he let me write a letter to the editor correcting and i think he should have offered to correct. It warranted a correction either way. They quickly they didn't actually correct. It is just a false claim in the most important paper in the world but whatever. Nbd anyway they did. Let me write a letter to the editor. The one of the slack channels. I think was the diversity. Slack was very mad that i was allowed to correct the record and i was leaked. A screenshot of it that included both. She's now departed but like a really not a great writer. She was mad about it a bunch of like way. Can i guess. I probably shouldn't say publicly. Wait let me guess in. Then we'll bleep it out. I was sorry listeners. S worse so it was a bunch of like engineer software and just people who had nothing to do with the editorial process who were aghast that i had been given this opportunity to correct the record and it was just it demonstrated to me how they're just two completely different worlds at work because to me. This was like an easy journalist. Call that you need to at least let the person correct the record. Basic journalism went to one but these people who were exerting influence on the editorial process were just from a different world. I don't i didn't recognize as but i'm sure they were some of these. People like uber and google. Who just didn't understand how journalism work and saw the world. There's like i'm a bad person. How could the times platform me and give me a chance to respond to this. And it was a little bit shocking to see this out in the open our and to know that like obviously this is going on twenty four seven and this was well before the tom. Cotton and stuff really ratcheted to overdrive like this screenshot like blew me. I just i was like this is what's going on at the fucking most important paper in the country. So that's why. I was personally traumatized and people should send me money. You know. it's it's kinda the same thing that happened at target over the abigail schreier book where these minority voices. Who really shouldn't have any impact on your business or whatever somehow executives said they can exert influence how these people have power the like and i don't think the problem is even them as much expressing their opinion as the fact that the higher ups. Listen that this actually. They actually do have an impact like you wrote a piece for new york magazine couple of years ago before we had the word cancel culture but when these callout started happening about how corporations just need to stop listening to twitter. And you're right about that and of course like that's the opposite of what has happened. There's one other Other part from this new york magazine piece. I wanted to bring up. So there's a section about This editor caroline ryan who has been tasked with editing a like the some of the patriots. Like i would say. I guess contrarians ben. Smith is one. Michael powell. Who's done some great reporting recently unlike free speech and identity stuff and the other is nelly bowls and nellie as a tech and business reporter out in san francisco and she also happens to be engaged to bury ways so now we had written a piece about she had gone to seattle. She had gone to chaz and she had a she interviewed a bunch of people who owned businesses around sort of the chaz perimeter including a copy shop that he used to go to like every other day owned by a gay dude. A a gay of color is that the correct term. He's not white anyway. She goes on agok. he's he's a nice guy. I like him a lot and he was part of this lawsuit against the city. Because the city hadn't like shutdown chaz shop and it was destroying his business after his business was already been destroyed because of the fucking pandemic and so wrote this great. Ps that was one of the only pieces like if you had read the vast majority of coverage either local or national outside of conservative coverage about chop chas the autonomous zone in seattle. That rose up in the aftermath of george. George floyd killing in all of the blm protests this summer All of the local coverage including from the stranger and from most local outlets was like unquestionably positive. Including when people started dying i think i think ultimately three people died in this six block radius which is not the area like it's an area. I know really my office. The stranger office was inside of chas and this was an influence on area. Like it's right beside a park. There's lot of million dollar multimillion dollar condos on the perimeter of it and then all of a sudden like it's this anarchist zone it's like like have anarchism and like slash half like homeless encampment And so but most of the the most of the coverage of this was just like unquestionably give nelly went and she talked to business owners in the how this was impacting numbers. And so here's here's the section from the peace. Some of bowls colleagues looked at her reporting skeptically in part. They told me because of her relationship. With barry weiss the accusation was up bowls reporting had become tinged with her partners. Ideology chris merritt come on like. That's a reason to criticize colleagues. Nellie weren't with berry. I don't think they would have this fucking problem. It's because barry is toxic to them. This said they can't just look at the reporting on its face and it's like it's like she's she's very therefore she's bad it was just the level of contempt there'd be like oh berries. Problematic nisa sexually transmitted anneli. Must've it's yeah. It is gross. I would just encourage everyone to read this. This magazine article. We're focusing on one aspect of it. There's some other interesting stuff there. And i think there've been you know actual roadblocks in making the times less white elite institution and make it more diverse. I don't want to downplay that. Obviously from this podcast point of view where most worried about journalists and academics ability to do their job which which is feeling increasingly. Crimped unless you had anything else to say about that article. Maybe they should lead us into marry now. This is this is the good segue. I mean speaking of crimping yup so shortly before we sat down to record this today. Matt iglesias announced that he is leaving. Vox other. he's he's doing a limited run podcast for them for the next eight weeks. But he's setting up on sub sack he's joining other such luminaries as Know andrew sullivan. We've talked about glenn greenwald. We've also talked about this now. Gets moose nuggets moose. Moose's balls as a subset and matt is not the sort of guy who's going to like be a flame thrower and burn bridges on his way out but we are we are. Yeah if you've been watching shit unfold at vox and especially what happened after re-signed harper's letter i. I think it's very clear that it is harder and harder for people like not iglesias who view the world with genuine curiosity agree with him or no and who just sort of our policy minded and careful thinkers is harder and harder for them to really do their jobs at a place like fox right. We should give a little a little background on the harbors that letter so people weren't listening to what we're talking about. Yeah i mean. So the harper's letter google got god. Save your soul for what comes up but katie and i both signed it. Medically signed the harper's letter one of his colleagues. It was a letter defending like bradley. Defending the values of free speech. Defending probably defending is a free speech and say basically saying like people shouldn't have to risk like ruin for holding unpopular one of his colleagues a trans woman advice who's a culture critic named. Emily wonderful. I think i rename rate. She publicly said on twitter that she was sending a letter to the bosses at. Vox because matt signing this letter made her unsafe at worker or less safe And to mean a lot of others like nothing could have better proved the point the letter than someone who is so outraged at someone signing a milquetoast letter on free speech that they felt less safe and that they had to report. They're calling which is what it is you sanity mail to your colleague to your employer about something you're calling did to be fair. Emily said she wasn't trying to get him in trouble. You're being a little overly generous there. If someone says. I'm not trying to hurt you. While they're beating your head in with a bat i mean come on like. She wrote a letter to the bosses. What is she thinks. Going to fucking can happen right. And this gets more complicated. Because emily subsequently blamed me for online pylon which is like i tweeted about it three times every conservative outlet in the country covered it thousand twitter accounts with more people than mine wrote about it. I am not happy she got popped on. She then said that she was getting an an endangered with death. Threats and i said it wasn't true was just me and late and nobody like we did a podcast about this people. Were mad at me for saying this. But i look through all of the like mentions i looked. I spent like a lot of time like combing through these. Mentions also looking up key words. There was some like transphobic. Shit like miss gender and stuff like that directed at her but in terms of like Like actual death threats. I couldn't find a single one. And and so. I said this on the podcast fully anticipating that all of a sudden. They're going to show up. They didn't they have not emerged. Since then so i always vindicated. You think i was wrong about this. But i think i was. I think you were on just in the sense that it is impossible that a trans woman caught in a concert angry. Conservative maelstrom wouldn't have gotten some death threats and maybe not want to share them but that said The point that. I hate that i became a part of the story. I didn't want her piled on. I probably shouldn't have tweeted about it all just sort of it. It's ridiculous To pretend that the harassment was because of me given that this was like a national conservative media story either way if you're mad iglesias and signing an open letter also signed by like noam chomsky and a bunch of people including the most famous people in the world katie herzog jesse single. If that leads you to a colleague publicly. Say that about you. That she feels less safe and being mattis. You have an opportunity to set up your own shop and probably make more money for all. I know you know to me. That would just be such a strong signal. Like i need to get the fuck out of here and there was also some tension between him and as recline one of his co founders where he met clearly. He couldn't speak openly about the situation. I think is a since deleted tweets. But he said so said something to that effect to as rand twitter so places like vox if are just gonna continue to shed. People like mad iglesias and again. He's a guy where like even if you disagree with him. What he writes isn't predictable. It isn't stupid isn't knee-jerk he really is seeking to understand the world and complicated policy issues and trying to understand. Complicated policy issues is not compatible with being a crusader for a very narrow version of social justice. So i i just. I locked already in trouble financially. But you can't really. I don't think you can afford to lose. People like him because he really adds value. Yeah but not to the colleagues. I mean this is the this is the issue. He might add value to the readers. But when you have. You know like insurrection. On the part of your staffers accusing somebody of like making you feel unsafe or somehow putting you in danger for doing something like signing an open letter i mean i would not want to be management at a place like this. I mean trying to balance like the products versus the angry. Staffers braying at you from below would be just total impossibility so it makes perfect sense that so many people are fleeing their institutions institutions. That are already not doing well because of covid fleeing them for independent. Because yeah you can make way more fucking money and you don't have to deal with these headaches you know. It's been great for us and there are some like we've talked about this before with. There are some problems with this model for one thing. It's creating narrower and narrower echo chambers if if if if glenn greenwald or andrew sullivan or matt or whoever can cultivate their own audience that means that people who who otherwise like read vox the intercept or rolling stone or whatever are going to be are going to have these opinions fed to them. These problematic opinions. They might agree with. And i think that is a really big problem. The other issue is just like how many how many subjects are going to make it. How many are going like how many how many independent creators can can be supported if you have to pay like fifty bucks a year. Whatever for matt's newsletter and fifty for glands and fifty for for andrews and one hundred and a thousand years you know well then like it's just a. I'm not sure how many how many can support it. Because i don't know that it's good for the consumer when you can get like the new yorker for eighty bucks a year. Whatever the other thing is that. I think the people who this is really like this movement is really going to hurt our editors because you don't need an editor with with with a model like i know andrew has an elevator and editor. I don't know if glen has an editor. I sorted out it. A good editor can make totally totally the whole point of subsectors writing without one. If you can. I mean i guess so so. I think i'm not sure people understand. How top heavy like traffic patterns are. i mean. let me explain this and this is just based from being at new york magazine and having access to their numbers for a while. The sense i got is that like the superstars in that world. And of course. We don't mean superstar like lebron james and madonna. But ah jonathan chait or andrew sullivan. They get huge amounts of consistent traffic. They have big fan bases. They have built up over decades. Now and a lot of the people i would guess. A lot of the people who sign up to subscribe for a place like new york magazine. Do it in part because of the relationship. Feel to andrew sullivan or john. Eight comey wrong about any of this. I don't think i. I mean at the stranger. Dan's traffic dan savage's traffic was like when we like. We had periodically send out like reports with you with like analytics about who is getting the traffic. Whatever i actually asked them to stop. Because i thought it was bad for morale even though dan was consistently like far away probably like three or four times. The traffic is the next highest person which was usually me then. I thought this was bad for morale. And i complained about and then people were like mad at me for complaining but i thought for me it was like you know i just. I don't think like a personally as a writer. I didn't like paying attention to the numbers. Because i didn't want the numbers to influence my work and i felt like well if i'm at the top of this heap. I should be the one complaining about this because this is really going to impact the people at the bottom of the heap. Something nice but of course. Everybody complained about it. Anyway i just think people don't realize maybe lopsided it is and like i think my theory is borne out by the fact that whenever one of these guys jumps they instantly get onto that front top ten page ugliest. Well he'll be. I think he'll be in the top ten very soon. Just like greenwald while just like sullivan was so this. This nuggets slice no This leaves these outlets bereft of pretty big names that the financial situation better. Because i do think these guys are subsidizing other work in the same way like famous times columnists including ones. We do get a lot traffic and you know. That article pointed out that the opinion page at the times which is where the big personalities are gets. A huge amount of traffic generates a huge amount of revenue relative to everything else that is funding journalism. That is funding investigative reporting. I can cost thousands of dollars a day in some cases. So that's another reason. I'm worried about substance. i'd rather have glitziest like the value. His were generates then part of it getting redistributed for lack of a better word to like investigative journalism at vox. The problem is it's increasingly box. Doesn't really do that. Much valuable work. I don't want iglesias's value getting redirected to eighth fucking article about how we should abolish. The police are examined whiteness. What what else do these outlets have to offer us. When iglesias's got we were talking about there's people at vox. We respected great. Deal jane costa and she's about to leave for the times sean early. He's great Herman lopez Brian resnick does get stuff. On the science side rennes res-. I think far as like the these are all writers who are really good. I don't ask aaron. Rupar does great things on twitter and video. He's really good at taking video stripping and of context and putting it out there for one hundred thousand people to re tweet. He's like he's like on the confirmation bias be and he is really good at that. I look i. Maybe we're viewing this like this confirmation bias or wishful thinking. I don't think there's a big market for the eight million piece about examining white. I think there is a market. For what glenn greenwald and andrew sullivan and mattei. The and others do so. We'll see. also. The economic outlook for these publications might get better You know next year. When when cova debates but i don't think that post trump years you're going to be very good for. I don't think a joe biden in the white house is necessarily great news for place. Like vox no and there are other forces like you can't like like some people say like go will go broke. It's more it's more than that. But you know you can see if you look at who the top riders are on stuff. I'm just gonna pull up the top riders right now okay. Talk writers dispatch. That's a conservative outlet number. Two letters from an american heather cox road. I've not familiar with her. It's about history the bulwark. That's conservative. Matt taibbi andrew. Sullivan bill bishop. I also don't know about him. Glenn greenwald these are all yasha monkeys in there. Like if you look at the top ten these are all these sort of contrary and you know people who were Institutions who have fled in part because of this monolithic homogeneous lack of diversity of thought. So they're doing really well. It could be that go. Woke go broke is an oversimplification. But but there's a longer version that's like going to fail to like express clearly what your publication stands for let bizarre bullshit takeover within hr and within the newsroom. Then your talent leaves and then that helps you go. Broke like that might be true. Because that's what's happening some places. Well the content is like if you look at vice-like it the content is boring. That's my issue with it is vice. Used to be like bad but it was kind of funny interesting edgy bad and now it's boring more more morality bad you know. They're not like like there's no like like guns journalism about doing cocaine off of strippers butthole anymore. It's like you know this. Harry potter book is problematic. It's just fucking blur. Be like wired. Would video game writer. One of the video games covered covered Helen lewis thing was like in this sort of moralizing. tidal wave. Like you know you really gotta do a better job making sure someone higher doesn't have offensive us in the past it's like and it was also like like this assumption that helen lewis is transphobic. Which i don't think is fair at all. You can't you can look at her views and and like okay. You can say that. The headline of of her per piece in the times. The sunday times was a br like problematic or whatever but if you look at her actual abuse like helen lewis says she believes trans. Women are women in trans men are men. she says the platitude but because other people's it's like the jesse single thing we're not people say that she's transphobic in there for she's transphobic. I'm glad you brought things back to me. The real victim in all of course of course. Well i'm the real victim. Because i'm the one who has to deal with you exactly anything else on this. It'll be interesting to see. I anticipate iglesias will do very well anything else on anita. I'm resentful that he had to launch this on the m like that. Loose nuggets launched. But that's it that's it. I'll talk to him about that privately. Maybe you cannot cross post content. that's a great idea. Maybe i'll do a guest post. If you want to get in touch with us you can always reach us at blocked and reported podcast gmail.com the four point six four point seven war on apple podcasts reaches on we are. We are losing people. Men are dying in the trenches. That's not an offensive algae. But this is this is really are normandy. Wouldn't you say. I don't think it's a good analogy. Because we like it. When men die in the trenches says like jerseys white man. Nbc's are dying in the trenches people if you would like to give us a five star. Review on apple podcast. It'd be great as always you can get much more content if you sign up for our petri on that's our premium subscription program. Just five dollars a month. Patriot dot com slash blockchain reported. You also get early and ad free episodes. I think that is it. Unless you're anything else to say about your dogs testicles. Soon i think i'm good. Undock testicles for now asked me in five minutes. This has been blocked in report. I'm jesse senior and remember matt. Iglesias must be held accountable for all the colleagues. He murdered his signature. And i'm katie. Herzog and also remember all beings are born philosophers and lesser born podcasters

helen lewis Barry weiss the new york times bronwyn dickey joe bernstein jay jesse jesse katie herzog five dollars helen twitter abigail tim stone thirteen year mexican restaurant white house uk amazon Appre taibbi Glenn greenwald Jesse
#58 The Purple Gang's Legendary History

Radio Free Flint

30:48 min | 6 months ago

#58 The Purple Gang's Legendary History

"The hello you're listening to radio free flint. This is arthur bush today. We'll be talking to author gregory for near mr for near Is at amazon top award author. And we're going to talk to him about his book. The the elusive purple gang detroit's kosher nostra which is a concise history of one of america's most notorious prohibition gangs the bernstein brothers and their associates. Were the only jewish gang in the united states to dominate the rackets of american major american city from their meteoric rise to the top detroit's underworld to their ultimate demise. Mr foreign here's book is an episodic account the pro gains corrosive pursuit of power and wealth and their inevitable plunge toward self destruction. Mr near is born and raised in trenton michigan. He received his bachelor's and master's degree from eastern michigan university. He taught at laney. High school in michigan for seven years then moved to san diego california where he taught for thirty years in language. Arts program is also taught at a kaya mega college For ten years and he's now retired and living in san diego. Mr barnier is an expert in the purple gang. And i think you'll find his knowledge of the purple gang and of the true crime genre in general to be quite the purple gang also known as the sugar house. Gang was a criminal mob of bootleggers hijackers with predominantly jewish members. The operated in detroit michigan during the nineteen twenty s that was of the prohibition era and came to be detroit's dominant criminal gang. Excessive violence in infighting caused the gang to destroy itself in the nineteen thirties. All this according to wikipedia in popular culture although heavily fictionalized the nineteen thirty film public. Carol number one deals with the hunting down and capturing of the purple gang jailhouse rock by elvis presley mentions the purple gang in the song. You can hear the whole rhythm. Section was the purple gang. Nineteen fifty nine The film the purple gang was heavily fictionalized including details of the gangs rise to prominence in one thousand nine hundred sixty. The second season episode of the untouchables simply titled. The purple gang provides a fictional account of the purple gangs kidnapping of a mobster kirk courier. It's been rumored that the purple gang illicit profits from the rackets in detroit were funneled into building to las vegas casinos at the time. The satellite and the frontier ian fleming refers to the purple gang in his james bond novels. Diamonds are forever goldfinger and the man with the golden gun the purple gang was also referenced by ross macdonald in his nineteen two novel. The ivory grin. Although he was gunned down. In the first scene. Max allan collins identified the roden as a purple gang torpedo in his novelization of the nineteen ninety blockbuster film dick tracy an episode of detroit. One eight seven featured a man whose grandfather was a member of the gang. The purple gang began to terrorize. Detroiters with executions of their enemies among their victims was city. Police officer vivian. Welsh killed on february. First nineteen twenty seven. He was later revealed to be a dirty cop who is reputedly trying to extort money from the purple gang nineteen thirty one and enter gang dispute ended in the murder of these purp- three purples by members of their own gang chicago gangsters who had been imported to detroit to help out the purple gang. The three men had violated and underworld code by operating outside. The territory allotted to them by the purple gang. Hymie paul is the door sucker. Also known as joe sucker and joseph were lured to an apartment on collingwood avenue on september sixteenth. Nine hundred and thirty one. They believe they were going for a peace conference with the purple leaders. After a brief discussion the three men were gunned down. Authorities caught up with gang when they burst into fletcher's apartment and found the suspects. Abe oechsler irving milberg in eddie fletcher. They were playing card from their rise to the top of detroit's underworld to their ultimate demise. This is an episodic account of the purple gang corrosive pursuit of power and wealth and their inevitable plunge towards self destruction. A good morning greg. This is great for near. Thanks for having me. Oh it's my pleasure now. The name of your book which she wrote about the purple game is be elusive purple gang. And the subtitle is detroit's kosher now stra the key word is elusive because so much of the local record is obscured. It's mixed up with legend and frankly a lot of wishful thinking and faulty memories. So to write the book. I had to wade through hundreds of newspaper articles and every book i could find on the subject. An remarkably there aren't that many And the the reigning expert of for the purple gang is park of fire and he wrote a couple of books day images of america photo book. So he's got three books out on the the purple gang very good documented properly side. I wanted to write us. A narrative story And not a documented piece the popular Nonfiction the average person could pick up not only Be educated a little. Bit about the The purple gang but also to get a feel about who these these guys were because they are well. That's where i'd like to start right. There guys were and how they got started in in doing research for this interview. I learned that in nineteen sixteen. There was an act called the damon act which essentially prohibited alcohol. Prohibition prohibition act following year the purple gang and the other gangs The mafia gangs had a two year. Head start on prohibition and across the river to try where you can see the distilleries now. It's only a mile that they were ideally position to get on the ground floor for prohibition and you know once they had that locked up Anybody who tried to to poach or muscle their way in an on territory did so at their great peril for the purple gang. Essentially a was a run and gang. Well they eventually became that they started out. You know just straight punks pushcart Shoplifters in the eastern market area which is where they're from the hastings street area that later became famous for jazz music. And you're talking about the city of detroit. The city of detroit. Yeah and that was when they were young but they Start as musclemen. I went around and intimidated people to join the cleaners and dryers association which they Run ran a bernstein. Was one of three people longed it of from there they They got their name and once they had to notoriety and they knew how to make some money. They did get into the protection rackets snatch racket which was kidnapping high rolling gamblers and gangsters because it was relatively safe. Watch guy you'd pick them up. You put them in house for two or three days. You know time to a chair and then after a while you know whatever. The money was The arrangements would be made and the guy we go home but he wouldn't go to the police so it was a big moneymaker for the The purple gang and of course. They're big big. Moneymaker was prohibition and they were in league with alka. Pony on was not a competitor. Now when you call them the coach the kosher no straights straits a play on words because me up because it means nothing if you really break it down there jewish all ranking members who were jewish and day. They worked with anybody. They worked with irish show. They worked with the italians. They worked the black community especially in the numbers racket where they also made a lot of money again. Lang was a big part of their operation to so they they had to money sources. Two of the brothers ran The gambling and two them Ran the street operations. They dropped out of school. They were troublemakers. they got put into ungraded Which was essentially a crime college and so all these guys many of them not all of them but many of them quit school before they were eight years old they could make money and they had to their big families that were from immigrant families many of these gangs that start out. They start out as of scavenger gangs. They do they do crime opportunity they roll somebody on the street or they and they start getting the idea that they can be entrepreneurial business they became a businessman and they're very successful. How did they get this name. And who gave it to them. While the the name has all sorts of stories About the derivation and the one that is about ten or twelve of them young twenty twenty one twenty two months of young guys. They were the muscle for this cleaners and dyers operation. They all got rounded up In a pickup police stations and get their stories and so on so some of the presser there were these guys and the inspector of the gang and bomb squad. His name was inspector. Garvan told the press oh their purples gang and there was this Heated hired these guys. He was like their mentor and gave them jobs. Intimidate this person or that person so they were connected with sammy. Purple when garvin said that The the newspaper people went home for the first time. They were named got purple gang. Not sammy's purple skin. So the purple gang as a separate entity not to be cute but the the name was very colorful like i said it was shorthand in the press and with the police they became in short order the marquee in in detroit and the jewish gang. That control the whole racket the rackets for a whole city denote influence. I did see some reference that this organization got involved in drugs. they'd A little bit later on and One of the bernstein since particular raymond. Burr bernstein feels see pictures of him. He's got dark dark rings under his eyes. Almost everything you see. Although i haven't seen any direct documentation around enough junkies and people to know what the luckiest you know. He had that that look so believe he was hooked on it and his brother almost got shot to death by one of their one of his own people who was a opium dealer and probably dealt with heroin too but you know opium. Smoking opium was is that while they did and Most of them on two of the brothers got involves With the fisticuffs pretty well and Were always and beat up of people. Ray bernstein and Jeez and joe bernstein. But joe took a bullet in the gut from an opium dealer almost died so he took a step back from the business. the street end of the business but he was the most entrepreneurially athlon word gifted of the brothers and he was the real business man and he was involved in some interesting things in The clare mount pleasant area oil leases and whatnot. This was after the gang imploded. Nineteen thirty three by nineteen thirty five. They were a former purple gang numbers. But the gang had imploded engaged in what some historians have referred to as the bootleg wars. Yeah that'd be michigan bootleg wars. I don't know if that happened. National asam it did there nineteen thirty. I believe it was maybe thirty one. When there were two mafia factions. John they call the the italian cross town. I believe was the label over thirty people. Mostly italian but a couple of purple gang people that got shot in that bloodiest of periods in the whole gang. Land detroit gangland era. Thirty people died within under ten months. The result of that was there was an eastside mafia westside mafia while the east siders were kind of modern. They didn't care who they worked with. If you could make them money referencing detroit. The city of deer he signed the west side of detroit. Okay yeah in. The west side was run by a people. In wyandotte michigan. Gangwar took place and the result is What became the modern mafia of detroit which was called the end. What happened is the the new bloods killed out what. They call the mustache. Pete's the old guard. The old sicilian mafia consolidated their power. And by that time. The purple gang had imploded. In abe bernstein. The for the gang cut a great deal. Gave most of the rackets to the mafia is numbers racket out of the book cadillac hotel. He had a an office on the mezzanine. And you know it was an open secret. But he had the protection. Eliza offers some historians have said as many as five hundred people were killed during this bootleg warm which they claim they claim was attributed to the purple gang now. I don't know if that involve fights with the mafia are not meant. Sure but i think that got number is inflated and you know you worked on the side of the the law. The police often will inflate their numbers of arrests. Or this. And you know for the for press reasons. It seems the purple gang just in and that's when they they were in control yeah part of the reason that they rose so quickly was of course intimidation but they cut a deal with al capone canadian whisky and in particular brand that was made in combat called log cabin. I think hundred proof and there were a lot of old log cabin knockoffs. He got the good stuff from the purple gang. Since two thousand sixteen the flint kids fund has invested over nine million dollars in programs aimed to address and mitigate the impact of lead poisoning and trauma suffered by many children and flint. The twenty year fund support programs and services that focus on the long term health and development needs of our children. You can help. By giving to the flint kids fund at flint kids dot org that's flint kids fund at flint kids dot org the community foundation of greater flint. Who sponsors this fund is a five. Oh one c. Three nonprofit organization and your gift is tax deductible to the extent allowed by law uncut and the purple gang cut most of their liquor quite a few liquor. Cutting plants in town around al capone of course was a mobster in chicago. Yes this pipeline between detroit in chicago was to funnel with the purple gangs regional competitive advantage wise which was access to the canadian liquor market. There were to answer that unlimited supply from canada and unlimited demand in the midwest chicago. Kansas city you know. They weren't on the river. They couldn't see the distilleries they had to have a pipeline and l. capone the chicago organization. I guess what they called. It took all of the purple gang liquor and distributed it through much of the greater midwest. The demand was greater than the supply saw capone and the rest of his his henchmen they were. They were frequent regular visitors to michigan including mid michigan. Yes yes hideout. Tell us about that what you know. I don't know the lake but there is a lake just south of east lansing or you know lansing. The state capital apparently It was an enclave for a- talionis in the area in italian back in those days a lot of Respectable white people did not want to hang out with the talian. They had this lake area and al capone apparently In his gang owned a pretty a nice stretch of beach property. They're all under the table under the radar. If he had to get out of town and hide out somewhere he would go there and he did that quite often if he was going to be in michigan and he also did some independent deals with the the canadians so if he had to be in the area he didn't want to be right in detroit. Somebody would not come off billion. He was not a sicilian. mafia guy. so alka was also seated places like lupton michigan. Seen in places like the the all the grouse sabin which many michigan would would know our campers. The right will river recreation area. What what if any history the know about the purple gang and their activities in mid michigan. That would include claire as well as well as Ross common in all counties mike One armed gal and had the graceland ballroom built in one thousand nine hundred thirty three completed in nineteen thirty three in rose township on the rifle river. Mike how he got his name. I spent a good hour trying to figure that out yesterday. Nobody knows but i'm gonna slow to theory He probably lost his arm and world war one as a veteran. He was a bootlegger and Own sin You know associated with the purple gang and so he said hey. I'm going to build this not only purple gang but other gangsters are on the lam from the police and so they had this Thing built and when i found out was is that might. Y'all fan sister acquired the land it doesn't say inherited but acquired the land. Quite a few acres was thirty or forty acres and he paid is sister one dollar for the lan talk about a real estate bargain. But that's how it came to be locked in west branch or somewhere else. He had Ready access to the land had a plan similar. His wife had plans drawn up. And they built this ballroom that was really for the locals and then guests from Detroit interesting interest in place. Apparently a couple shootouts are in there. There are supposed to be some bullet holes in the walls and the ceilings a lot of its anecdotal but galveston got out of the business in thirty seven. Only four years was was he a you know an owner of it. I found an agency documentation but apparently Rumor has it that The lumber used to build that place was never paid for a one. Armed guy is not as intimidating. Has maybe a bunch of young purple gang guys coming in there because of the lumber business. Since i don't want to graceland ballroom continued on long past thirty. Seven was one golfing. Got out of the business and my source says it burned down in nineteen eighty one. And that's not too far from the rifle river recreation area state park which is formerly no grou- sabin which was owned by the dodge family. Some houses that were built by. Harry jewett who was connected to this family as the founder of grouse saveourn hunting camp. That's boys and thou entirely consistent with what you described This one are mike who started this. Hang out where. The purple gang was notorious. Tell us about. This place called the south branch ranch place. They had an airport Had buildings that were huge and they could do all kinds of they had an olympic pool. They've incredible an incredible Almost like a sports complex of the that you find a lot of cities today. What i learned about this purple game is that they somehow bought this south branch which was actually started and developed by willie durant who those who are listening flint will no. That's the william durant. That's the guy that started. General motors durant built this large ranch. It was known that the purple gang used to hang out there and hide hideout there as well as in the modern era. Jimmy hoffa and the legend goes jimmy. Hoffa may be found out there. If you wanna digging enough sandra now. I heard that they would meet and hide out in aldean michigan which is about halfway chicago. Lvn is a whole other case. There were three fleischer brothers who were all purple gang members. After the gang imploded. They went out to the west side of the state. Albion had a a number of concerns there but they bought a junkyard on the edge of town and obstensibly. They were in the scrap metal. Business reclaiming autos blah blah But really the place was their headquarters Because they had a burglary crew and they they bought a A grand page automobile. Most people never heard of that was had a wider wheelbase than anything else was out there. It had a v eight engine. That was a screaming engine. And what they did is they put on one side of it. double doors opened out this way. Like like a van in the back might do with two doors. While they headed on the side underneath the chassis. They welded out a ramp that they could roll down and what they would do. Is they would steal safes and go into a business. They you know robert and there were. They were very successful throughout jackson. And all that whole area and roll. Get to say as safe bang. Get in and out. Take it to this junk yard. And then they get in there with their torches or you know whatever the they had to open it you can bet they open it up. Now they got Into a An altercation with the police in there were some bullet holes in the car across the street from the junk yard. There's a big barn nose day own debt to They put the car in their thank. You well who's gonna come around soon. It's safe well. A local comes through and then they called the fbi and then there was a big boston. There's a picture of the car. And all the police. Stamina ron i. It's quite an interesting story. That was Three brothers harry. Harry fleisher while harry was one of the big time purple gang people up in the gang in. Thank my is younger brothers. You know he's he didn't want them tagging along with him. Harry was the tough guy. Later on in that area of between adrian and in lansing a few years later again the purple gang defunct but all these guys are former purple gang members and gets an oppressed the purple gang the killed a senator and then they ended up going to prison for it. Senator state senator a state senator. Yeah he was going to pass some legislation or or veto something that the mob gambling people wanted and He was the deciding vote and they just went out. And and now this guy You know a state senator and when that happened the whole state all the police. Everybody had to get these guys and they did and and they did a lot of time in jackson and also at marquette branch prison other rival gangs that's true and there was one hothead who felt he got cheated a deal and he said you know i'm gonna come over here and then you know going to get my money and He did go over there. Wherever that was ali got was a payment in lead and then he was dropped off in a dead end street the implosion of the purple gang and that started a major moneymakers for the ma for the the purpose so that had to be answered. There were lots lots of And there was this was retaliation for that death. And i understand that there were three people and all killed in this inter gang rivalry over territory. Oh yeah yeah. And there were Eddie fletcher they call them the siamese twins because they were in propaganda but they were is together. They ended up Trying to get a piece of the action after they got outta prison. A bachelor was one of the guys so to wind up here. What do you think their legacy is They don't have much of a legacy. They have a reputation and there's a lot of folklore. There were one generation gang so they didn't really have much of a legacy. And when they imploded that was the end was a one generational gang. History remembers them Basically brutal thugs businessmen who were even were outlaws among their own community and with their families. because they're they. The families didn't like it by the time. The game gang imploded. The mafia was the big game in town and all the interest of went went down. They did have a multi generational tradition in the italian gangs. Greg for near thank you for being my guest. Today sean. Radio free flint. We appreciate the time.

detroit michigan arthur bush bernstein brothers Mr near kaya mega college Mr barnier Max allan collins Hymie paul joe sucker chicago Abe oechsler irving milberg eddie fletcher two year al capone san diego twenty twenty one twenty two m alka Garvan
The Media Industry Is Complicit, and Good Journalists Pay the Price

Gaslit Nation with Andrea Chalupa and Sarah Kendzior

1:54:59 hr | 2 years ago

The Media Industry Is Complicit, and Good Journalists Pay the Price

"So what can you do? I money you can give or you can raise money for the legal defense fund. Second gather meet with other women and see what changes you wanna make through times up on your gathering has been the central principle of what we do and has created every action. We have taken. Third, listen, if any group you're in has people who only look like you change that group. It's an awakening experience to hear from women who have different experiences of marginalization. Fourth demand, the women in this room are the most powerful women in our industry. All you in this room, have the power to negotiate for equal pay or grant equal, pay or popularize equal, pay in our culture. Be embarrassed. If everyone in your workplace looks like you pay attention to physical ability age race, sexual orientation, gender identity, and make sure you've got all kinds of experiences represented fifth gossip. Well, stop the rhetoric. Rick, that a woman is crazy or difficult. If a man says to you that a woman is crazy or difficult. Ask him what bad thing did you do to her. That's a cooed. That's a code word. He is trying to discredit her reputation, make efforts to hire people who've had their reputations, smeared in retaliation. Six, don't be shy. Don't shy away from consequences for those who abuse their power. Those who abuse power are not going to have a change of behavior out of the goodness of their hearts. They're motivated by self interest, and they will only change their behavior. If they have to worry, they will lose what they care about. Seventh, and this is a United challenge to everyone in this room. Tell a new story. What if we took a year off from violence against women? What if for one year everyone in this room just one year, does everything in their power to make sure that all the entertainment produced from this room doesn't depict a rape or murder of a woman and the projects you write produce direct act pack. Edge market do not harm women this year. Let's see how that goes. I'm Sarah cancer. I'm a journalist scholar of a third -tarian states with the focus on the former Soviet Union, and I'm also the author of the book the view from flyover country. I'm Andrea Chiluba writer, filmmaker and activist, and that opening clip was Natalie Portman speaking at Variety's power of women event providing practical steps on how to resist the greatest threat facing the world toxic masculinity, this is Gasset nation, and we are a podcast that covers corruption in the Trump administration and the rise of autocracies around the world. And so today we're going to be discussing a variety of topics since we finally don't have a debt Laden pathological lying attempted rapist perjury addict to discuss now that the cavenaugh confirmation is over. So we're going to move on to our usual topic of the international alliance of kleptocrats eroding freedom and Justice around the world. In this episode, we are. Focusing especially on the new attacks on freedom of speech and on journalists, which we discussed bit last week as well. So if you missed that episode, we recommend you catch up and we're going to end the show by discussing media literacy and the dire state of the news industry today and conditions that you should be aware of. And we also have a very special interview that will inspire you about actions were not only the mid terms, but the years ahead to rebuilding our country after many decades of far-right destruction. So stick around for that. All of the news lately on journalists, getting killed abroad or defamed in publications, reminded me of when you talked to me, I think it was like an early seven early, two thousand seventeen. And you're thinking about going to Ukraine and you were worried because you and I had received all of these death threats since we started covering Trump and Russia for those who don't know. About those. You can listen to our first three episodes which were review of two thousand sixteen anywhere, you know, like worried what was going to happen. And I think what you wanted for me was just, you know, reassurance and a hug and some kind words. And you know, me being me, I have courses like, well, Andrea, they're not gonna kill you now because they don't want martyrs. If they killed you, it would signal that you're actually telling the truth about Trump and Russia and are therefore worth killing. And then people will take what you said seriously, which would be really bad for them as what they'd rather do is make you crazy. And so like, well, maybe I'm like the crappiest friend. I think that easy to kill Andrea. You're safe. Yeah. Yeah. And you're kinda like real quiet, Vermont. And then you're like, oh, yeah, you know things, but I went to Ukraine and it was all fine. I know you're building up to really important point, but I do want to jump in and say that I had to go to Ukraine in June twenty seventeen and about a month prior. So the harassment. Started picking up again at my sister's house in Washington DC. My sister again, of course is as you may recall from the first reemphasize she was a long time member of the DNC new worked in various positions there, and she warned everybody in her organization and in the media, very early on in two thousand sixteen about Trump and Russia, drawing attention. Paul Manafort specifically and all the research. She pulled together that was in the public domain at the time. And as a result, she had death threats and attempt to break it on our home. Her car was trashed twice. Her phone was hacked or computer was hacked. A mysterious song was downloaded somehow onto her phone and the lyrics were were threatening. So the harassment had picked up again, right when I had to go back to you crane. So that's why I was really nervous and what ended up happening is at the same time, the far-right pundits on cable news. We're saying, hey, collusion's not a big deal. And we, we started wondering, why are they talking about collusion and saying, it's not a big deal and then suddenly the. New York Times drops, series of bombshells revealing that Don Jr. met with the Russians and Trump Tower and essentially a quid pro quo like dirt on Hillary Clinton hacked emails in exchange for dropping sanctions related to the Magnitsky act. So deflect attention from himself Don Jr. broke his silence on Twitter by trying to blame my sister and Ukraine for hacking the election. So now looking back the harassment that resurfaced again in spring seventeen. It was very clear that they had that strategy in place to try to flip the script in the media and take the attention away from Don Jr. and put it on my sister and to sort of get my sister in a weaker position. They started harassing her again to mess with her head. And I will tell you in terms of getting the media attention away, it did work people or something talking about Ukraine, my sister as though there was something there turns out there wasn't. And so, yeah, that's the background on that story because I just think it's important to know of how the harassment strategies work not just against journalists, but also. Against people who are risking their lives and careers to speak out about what's really going on. Yeah, absolutely. And that you are facing a very legitimate threat and you had very legitimate concerns. And you know my point in bringing this up again is that at the time I felt like we were, we hadn't yet crossed this threshold. We have this kind of dynamic of hit pieces or actual hits. And at that time I think that they felt confident enough that they were going to be able to cover up corruption that nobody was going to take Trump in Russia, seriously, that it was going to be dismissed widely as a conspiracy theory. And by the time people caught up to everything that had transpired, which you know you and I and several others were actually talking about in real time throughout two thousand sixteen. It would be too late. You know, they will have consolidated autocracy within the government and any kind of revelation would be ineffective. And so at that point. It was just advantageous and a better strategy to just label critics particularly female critics as hysterical because you know to to kill someone is to kind of give credence to their claims in a sick way. Now, unfortunately, I think we have crossed that threshold. We'll discuss that a little bit later where they are killing journalists with impunity journalists, covering corruption worldwide, and they don't care who knows it. They want people to know it too. Yeah, this is a, this is a terrifying time to be a journalist, it's terrifying time to be a human general. So I don't want to detract from the broader threat against people who have it. We worse than us. But yeah, so we, it's been a weird time, especially this year to seeing strange things come out in the media that you're sort of wondering, don't you have more important things to cover, especially given the decline of media, the massive loss of news. Room jobs, the decline of local newspapers, which are so essential to covering exposing local corruption and keeping their local community safe. Like, I don't understand why people that are left in these newsrooms jobs are used their power by focusing on such little petty stories that really have no public service value. So we saw a wave of those recently in this year alone. And so Sarah and I are actually going to do a whole proper breakdown of media literacy, just so our audience under looks at the statistics and the hard numbers of what America's newsrooms look like today and spoiler alert they're very, very male. Predominantly male, predominantly white. So white men and white women decide who gets credibility and who gets labeled and it's a very white privilege lens that we're getting our news from. And so we're going to break that down and sort of go into those numbers and look at some room for improvement and some case studies on why improvement is so urgent and necessary. And it's just a matter of. Eamon rights now in America. So stay around for media literacy one. Oh one later in the show. Everybody stay going to talk about casper sleep brand that makes expertly designed products to help you get your best rest one night at a time. 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And using promo code gaslight at checkout terms and conditions apply. Yeah. No, I'm glad that you brought up the problems of our newsrooms because on top of that top of the structural deterioration, we have, you know, as I said before, growing dangers there openly assassinating, journalists who investigate corruption across the world within the last year, that's included, Daphne Galizia of Malta, young Kuchiak of Slovakia, Victoria, Marino of Bulgaria. And most famously in leading to a lot of policy, controversies Jamal Shoghi of Saudi Arabia who was killed in Turkey, but was a writer for the Washington Post. And as I said, these killings are increasingly. Happening with impunity. You know, they're meant to send a message that you know when you hurt one journalist, anybody is a potential target and this is, you know, this isn't new. Journalists have been killed by brutal regimes for as long as there's been public documentation of crimes. But I think what is new is how technology and how digital media has transformed this landscape where you have a thirteen million Cup talk or sees increasingly aligning with each other across the world. You know, we've seen the weakening of democracies worldwide, and they're involved in mutual beneficial in criminal financial relationships. Things like money laundering that these journalists are investigating. And then you also have a digital media landscape that crosses borders. So that when a journalist from one country is investigating a crime, crime that often implicates leaders from multiple countries that is. Read by a broader populous. You know, the world is able to read, you know, an indictment of, you know, it's business and political and other leaders kind of in in unison. And so that's something that's. You know new and I guess. You know, I don't know exactly how to deal with that because I feel like this is yet again an uphill battle against time because what we need is strengthening democracy, strengthening human rights, strengthening protections for journalists, and there have always been NGOs and activists groups usually based in the west that have risen to the fortu- try to protect journalists who are in harm's way in a thorn -tarian states. Now, if you look at say how Poland changed Hungary, Czech Republic, the United States England under Brexit. All of these democracies are weakening. And with that kind of who do you go to for protection. That question is unanswered, and I want to quote a tweet from Gary Khasarov the writer and activist and chess player from Russia who had warned a long time ago that this would happen if Putin was not. Rained in on Sunday. Cass froth tweeted when I said ten years ago, that Putin was a Russian problem, but would become everyone's problem if not stopped. I meant the model not just the man. So as Castro's comments, a little background in two thousand six Russia assassinated dissidents in journalists with impunity off and on for foreign soil. You saw the assassination of journalists and Apollo Costa in Moscow and also Alexander Litvinenko in the UK. Two thousand six is also the year that former Russian spies Sergei screwball who is the target of assassination? This spring was convicted in Russia, and scruple ended up settling in the UK only to be targeted there this year. And so that means that the world had ample time to watch these tactics in action, including the attack on Litvinienko in the UK. And so I guess, you know, I'm looking at this now. I'm wondering why. Why did the u. k. not act then why is it still not acting? Especially now that a British citizen has been poisoned as a result of the attempted attack on screwball. A woman died as a result of exposure to Novacek and in Russia. You know, they've just they've bragged about this. They did these kind of propaganda videos like trying to portray the assess and says these tourists just wanting to look at church spires. I mean, they made a mockery of a woman's death. You know, it's made me wonder like we'll do. We still have NATO like win. Does this count as an article, five violation? Like why is the response? So incredibly weak when we've had this level of interference that its homicide on foreign soil and nobody wants note to be clear, nobody wants to trigger article five of NATO. No wants that and the right. The benefit of NATO is that you are stronger together. And it's a lot of the countries that are on the eastern edge of Europe that border Russia that have this horrible experience of Soviet imperialism. They wanted NATO, they saw NATO membership for their own protection. It's an alliance that strengthens bonds between countries and education on how to confront the threats of the twenty first century between countries. It's, it's an alliance that if it, if it took its charter literally could have triggered the article five, which means an attack on any of us is an attack on all of us. And the one time that that was used actually was under George W Bush in response to nine eleven in, and it could have been could have been used in other cases in the Russians. Lured an Estonian security official towards them and kidnapped him and took him to Russia and was holding them hostage. That happened a few years ago. So so there's been this. Resurgence of Kremlin imperialism. That brings back a lot of bad memories for for the Baltic states for Poland, and other other eastern European NATO members. And they've been way ahead of western countries in confronting fake news and bots, and and trying to counter propaganda. And in many cases, warning Washington warning the Obama administration and and and not being taken seriously. So there's actually a really interesting article by a former Obama official about that specifically, how the eastern European NATO countries tried to try to warn them and they they were too slow. And so I think what you see again and again is that the bad guys are fast and the good guys are too slow. If you look at, for instance, Putin when he first started. Invading Ukraine, he had bigger dreams. He was selling the Russian people on November SIA, basically restoring borders of the Russian empire that expanded under Catherine the great and he was going to go in there and bite off a big chunk of of Ukraine will he was stopped. And that was, you know, that had a lot to do with Ukrainians. Willing to go to the frontlines fighting for a larger ideal which is, of course their freedom, their independence and also sanctions. So when the sanctions started coming from. The u. and the US that did slow down Russia's invasion. So sanctions do work, sanctions do matter. Unfortunately, I think. We've seen a bigger reluctance by this administration to enforce these sanctions and to enforce other things that would deter Kremlin aggression like releasing of substantial corruption report naming names and calling out Putin and and all the money. He's hiding an an all of it in those things do matter. Unfortunately, the west is just very, very slow to an act them, but when they do when they do get United in an act them does stop Putin does slow him down. We've seen that with his invasion in Ukraine. Yeah, that's. That's what's so frustrating. I mean, we've talked on here before about the molar probe and the slowness in that in how that is. You know a serious obstacle to actually accomplishing the goal which is to protect people. It just to stop criminal behavior, which is to clamp down on kleptocratic activity. And I feel like we see the same thing here and you know, yes, we don't want article five to be an acted. We don't want war just to make that clear. You know, there's a lot of journalists had this all or nothing perspective of either. We're going to indulge in engage Putin, or we're going to have like full-fledged warfare, and you know, the obvious solution lies in between and it's targeting their wallets. It's targeting their finances. It says, you say, you know, enacting sanctions particularly on these oligarchs which you know hold so much sway within the Kremlin on whom Putin is dependent. You know, it's a mutual dependency. It's linked to organized crime, and I don't know. It's just extremely frustrating to me. Like I remember back in the spring when the scruple poisoning happened. So many people are like, okay, this is the last straw, like Russia has hacked infrastructure. It's hacked elections, it's, you know, done doping at the Olympics. It's, you know, caused a plane crash on its invaded Crimea and is making moves into Ukraine like you can go on and on about the human rights violations in the violations of international law that the Kremlin committed. And then this was so you know, even by their standards, so blatant and cruel and committed with such audacity that I think people really thought, yeah, this is when the UK is going to act, combine this with Brexit and still still basically nothing and it just I think it just speaks to this Russian of institutions in power in the west, and I don't know how to get that power back without confronting our own weaknesses head on which they seem very reluctant to do. Yeah, and completely agree. And Gary Kasparov. One of the things he likes to point out is banks. Not tanks again, and again, we're not advocating war with you when you have this. The new face of corruption is the new face of the mafia is what Robert Mueller warned us about in two thousand eleven, it's the iron triangles. It's this massive web of corruption between accounting firms and lawyers and western banks at allow money laundering by these criminal regimes. And so it's confronting that and it's being swift with sanctions, going hard on sanctions and also, and we see this with Saudi Arabia confronting the social currency of people that have blood on their hands. So a lot of these Russian oligarchs, for instance, they liked to park their money in the west in London. So there's a reason why London is now called London grad because they buy up a lot of that rich real estate there, and they and they, they finance a lot of cultural events and institutions and things. And it's also fancy and posh and all the glitter Audie of UK society benefits from it and and socializes with them. And in a gives, these these oligarchy are complicit with Putin's aggressive regime. It gives them an era. Of social acceptability, whatever you wanna call it legitimacy that's been going on for far too long with with Saudi Arabia's Royal family and an elite. And now you're seeing a finally a backlash because of the murder and dismemberment of journalist by the Saudi Arabian government where finally, you have these big companies from j. p. Morgan too big media companies pulling out of any type of conferences or anything they, they have coming up with with Saudi Arabia and it's about time they do that because what these regimes crave is acceptance. What they crave is being celebrated hosting the Olympics hosts in the World Cup being the center of attention, throwing a great party with with their countries branding on it. As you've always said, Sarah with with your research and authoritarian ISM is a brand for the dictator. So what you need to do is damage the dictators brand. Right? Absolutely. And I think also when you damage that brand, you know, this is not just. A matter of actual illegal crimes, white collar crimes in white collar, criminal impunity. And we're going to talk about that a little later in the show with the tax dodging of Kushner and Trump, but that veneer of legitimacy certainly makes it much easier for them to carry out those sorts of actions. Along with the kind of flattering puff piece profiles. We sing certainly saw a lot of those from the New York Times on Mohammed bin Soltan. I mean, they now seem to, I guess, to their credit regret some of those profiles presenting him as a reformer instead of e murderous millennial tyrant. And speaking of that, I want to talk more about cou- Shoghi. We talked about him last week. We're now approaching, I guess the eight year anniversary of the herbs spring, which was this time of hope for the Middle East to is time. I think where people thought we were on this wave of. Democracy. I mean, we it was it was a time of pessimism because there's after the recession who was after the Iraq war. But I think you know. Democracies in eastern Europe, for example, we're much more stable than they were now, and I think that many in the west and also within the Middle East thought this, this is the moment. You know, this is the moment we're dictators that have been in power for decades or finally going to be overthrown, and people have a voice and be able to determine their own laws on representation own future, have the opportunities that they were long denied. And so I kind of want to look at where we are now because the murder of his Shoghi is hitting people in the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabians, but just Arab writers in general very hard in part grief for him as an individual and a writer, but also the the broader meaning of this brutal heinous and very brazenly committed crime. So one of my favorite people who I like to read on Twitter about this topic is yet l. bog daddy. I want to preface this by saying neither me nor Andre are experts on the Middle East. We're Rivera gun on the former Soviet Union, but I think you should seek out people who speak Arabic who know the region well, and he is somebody who I looked for that reason. And he had a Twitter thread recently which you know, I'm going to read. Hopefully he doesn't mind because I thought it was really powerful indictment and something people needed to care. So he says, what do I feel as an Arab, activist and dissident, I'd feel immense rage, not at Saudi Arabia, but at the so-called free world, we have been fucking warning you for seven years and you have nothing but fucking ignored us. Well, she can hands with our persecutors. Here's the result. What do you want me to do? Go back to my Twitter archive and re tweet everything. I tweeted over the past seven years or republish everything I've written in the past five. When we spoke, you basically padded us on the back, like freaking idiots who don't understand how the world works and continue to. Your amoral policies, all the same. And now you're faced with the result, fuck you and your mock outrage. And yes, if a journalist, once you get in touch with me, a gladly write this piece though, only if you'll actually print the word cock suckers in an article, they murdered us. They destroyed our lives. They made us into generation of traumatize refugees. They disappeared us. They tortured us. They jailed us and you sat there and feigned concern while you still shook hands at them. Fuck you. You know how we got here. You know, we got to the point where freaking Thirty-three-year-old nutjob is blackmailing the world. It's your fucking hypocrisy if you weren't so fucking hypocritical about your values, they wouldn't be at risk now, hey, why don't you work for think tank? You really good. Why don't you advise on policy? Because think tank and policy circles are full of fucking careerist cock suckers. That's why stability at all costs. We were the cost. And now this is the cost. I'm already getting responses from people feeling but heard about. The criticism. How many of you lost friends? How many of you got tortured? How many of you lost everything for the very rights that you were handed on a silver fucking platter at birth? No, I'm not only talking to the political class. I'm talking to everyone who failed to take their own elected leaders to account if we can speak about democracy every day, and I've never had the right to vote for an hour of my life. What were you doing with your votes? Stop your butter and accept personal responsibility, accept personal responsibility without that change can never happen. So yeah, that was a powerful statement usually doesn't, you know, swear the bunch. They feel like it's completely justified in this case. And I hope that people continue to look at what he's saying and what people close to kashogi are saying because it is not only Saudi Arabia that is responsible for this crime. It is the hypocrisy of western institute. It's the idea that if you just kind of waited out certain people's lives are worth sacrificing, you know that an individual living in a country being abused by their government is just it's fine with them being upon as long as we eventually meet some greater goal. And I've been to so many of these kind of NGOs that he discussed where people talk a good game. But when it comes down to what people need, which is often money resources and real confrontation of these brutal regimes. And again, I don't mean militarily, but I mean in rhetoric and I definitely mean financial consequences. Little fashioned boycott pull your money out, pull your money out. Yeah, or just don't you feel ashamed indulging these individuals like, don't you feel? I don't know. An obligation. Don't give them a stage. Don't give them legitimacy. Don't have you. Don't have the crown prince speak at New Yorker. Communists ideas festival don't have Bannon speak at. Don't give don't give people that advocate. Genocide that actively work against democracy and killing innocent people don't give them a stage, just simply don't and pull your money out, whatever power you have to divest do do so and enact sanctions swiftly. And that's what you do. And then work towards a green energy policy because it's the green energy of really going to put an end to these regimes. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's frustrating now because the the situation was human rights in Saudi Arabia's obviously been bad for a very long time, and nonetheless the US continue to have these very close relationships with the ruling family doodo oil interests and other economic interests, and that was damaging enough particularly in the Bush years. But I'm more concerned now of for the obvious reason of the particular makeup of this White House, which is basically a criminal syndicate posing as a government and one of them. Most dangerous and illegitimate members of this administration is Jared Kushner. Like I'm so exhausted from warning people about the danger of Kushner who has no qualifications who is only in the White House because he's Trump's son-in-law and who is a dangerous person in terms of his utter lack of interest in benefiting anybody, but himself and his family and his blatant abuse of law and protocol in order to achieve what he wants. And I'm not a hundred percent sure what the end goal is, but I know that the results as we've gone along among which I would I would somewhat include the murder of her Shuki are really troubling. Initially, Kushner is supposed to be in charge of quote, unquote, fixing the Middle East, which seems like this sick sort of Inge oak for tightening autocratic measures and partnering with brutal leaders all over the region, what not just Saudi Arabia, but I would include. Israel under Netanyahu as well. And one of the things that's frustrating is that it should be easy to get rid of someone like Kushner, you know, he doesn't have a policy background. There's no reason he should be there and he's committed crimes while in office. He lied on his security clearance forms more than any appointee in history like no one had seen anything like this where he left off hundreds of names of foreign context that he has. He's attempted to set up and has set up a licit back channels to foreign dictatorships. He's been credibly, accused of selling state secrets, and I think that even if he does leave the White House, we're still going to be left with the ramifications of that. I think our national security is permanently jeopardized because of Kushner. And I mean, I don't know, like my litmus test for whether the Muller probe is succeeding, whether it is a legitim-. Challenge to Trump's consolidation of autocratic power is whether Kushner gets indicted and so far we just see nothing we see vonda kind of getting set up to be, you know, the air. We see a dynastic kleptocracy in the making. I know we, we have the giovannio watch on the show where we keep repeating again. And again that the endgame all this is for Donald Trump to see his daughter as the first woman president Xi is her father wrapped up in a prettier pocket. As we always say, and it's bizarre that Nikki Haley when she resigned right before a major election, the midterm election resigned from representing us in the UN and used her speech to praise Jared and vonda like that sent a chill through our country. That's like, what is happening are these? And it's just it just positioning Jared, Nevada to be not only just whatever their bizarre roles are that aren't clearly defined and because their roles are not. Cleared defined. They're essentially the. The head of everything, right. Jared had some like government innovation thing that he was doing for a while and Avante special system that president and travels with her father and represents our country abroad working with some of our biggest allies is sitting next to angle Merckel. It's they're getting her ready. They're gonna flaunt this all as her as her what? What makes her qualified to be president or whatever. Maybe maybe they might be nice and generous and I try to run her as a Senator or something, but I don't see that happening. I mean, her father went straight to running for the United States. Vodka's going to go straight to running for president in the United States, and she'll have that same criminal apparatus that whole coalition of corruption behind her to make sure she gets elected again because that's what's going to keep the coalition from being prosecuted and brought to Justice. That's why they have to stay in power. Yeah. I mean, what we're getting it clear. We're getting a, you know, a political structure that mirrors these. Autocracies in the Middle East and central Asia where you have a dynasty. Yeah. Meanwhile people call us crazy for pointing it out, and yet it just keeps getting worse and worse. And so, yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't know how you can't see it at this point. And I guess, you know. And there have been others in the media, and certainly other scholars of a thorn hearing states pointing out this danger for a long time. Other outlets have been rather slow and have been mostly operating as courts to Niagara Fers for this little dynasty in the making, especially the New York Times. But recently they released what they classified as a bombshell article about how Donald Trump is not a self made man shocked just to shocked by this claim. And in fact, leeched off of his dad and helping me out Donald Trump is not a self made racist either. He was like born into a racist family. It took a village and bills on races little children's, yes. So the, you know, they released this, this giant article that they're hyping up a lot. I don't have a criticism really of the article. Actually, I do. I feel like it kind of played down the mafia connections, the connections with. Denies prime that the Trump family had, but I did do a thorough investigation into some finances would have been nice had that come out in two thousand sixteen. However, I felt like the article mostly Bill on the work of New York journalists who covered this in real time, particularly Wayne Barrett, who's my number one recommended source on Trump? Unfortunately, he died the night before the inauguration. And also, you know, this wasn't knew this was discussed by Hillary Clinton in the first presidential debate. The fact that Trump is not self made and that he. Like built off of his father's schemes and plots and ripped a lot of people. This was all very much in the public domain. I'm not sure you can get a more public viewing than the two presidential candidates discussing this on a national stage in primetime. So you've got to ask yourself, why won't he release his tax returns? And I think there may be a couple of reasons. I maybe he's not as rich as he says. He is second. Maybe he's not as charitable as he claims to be. Third. We don't know all of his business dealings, but we have been told through investigative reporting that he owes about six hundred fifty million dollars to Wall Street and foreign banks, or maybe he doesn't want the American people. All of you watching tonight to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes because the only years that anybody's ever seen where a couple of years when he had to turn them over to stay thority. When he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. So eight zero. So I wasn't like super excited about that article. I think it's a good direction for the New York Times to go in two thousand eighteen with him in office with very little that can be done about this. But you know, one thing I want to add I want. I want to hear your reaction to another thing that they've left out and that really hasn't been discussed very much at all is this article that came out in late two thousand sixteen based on documents from the Czech security services. From back when Czechoslovakia was a Warsaw Pact country working with Soviet intelligence. These documents were released from the time that check intelligence is spying on Donald and Ivana Trump who hailed from Czechoslovakia. They had a lot of little interesting notations in there. They said that Trump had struck a deal to not pay taxes in the US for thirty years. It didn't specify who he struck this deal with. I like to know and that he had presidentially I'm visions and that's something that you know, we all knew Trump started talking about his presidential ambitions in one thousand nine hundred seven right after he went to the Soviet Union and continued to either run or almost run for president for the next thirty years did so five times I want to know what the hell. This is like. This to me is the big story it was written about in the guardian was written about and build. It's not some sort of like fringe discovery. All these documents are out there. Like why the hell didn't he pay taxes like. So now this is even possible and why everyone is signaling it. I just you can't have a president nited states who is a tax dodger. It's just he's supposed to uphold the government and he's supposed to protect. The government's was to keep the government running and be a leader not only for many millions of tax paying citizens, but also for our military. And this is somebody that just. Doesn't know the meaning of the word service. Yeah, and it's just, I mean. I mean, it's another in this thing I know of such a broken record on this and you can't change the past, but I feel like in order to change the present, you need to at least understand the past. And so I don't understand how Trump carried out all of these financial crimes, which, as I mentioned were documented in the public domain by people like Wayne Barrett, where apparently being explored by security services worldwide, I would assume they were also explored by the FBI or Intel bodies in the US. I don't know why they wouldn't be being that Trump was like hanging with, you know, an international cabal of mobsters like kind of tip off and they weren't. So we just get to the point where we have another erosion of norms where he launched his campaign and didn't release his tax returns. And for a while, there is this kind of steady drumbeat of like, well, when is he going to release them? Like obviously he has to release them. We can't have a president who's who's not gonna. Show his taxes and he didn't, and then you didn't divest. And now he's basically put a like going out of business sale on the White House lawn and is selling off America and parts. And the longer this goes on in the more reluctant people are to publish about it. The point that this expose that the times did comes out in two thousand eighteen instead of two thousand sixteen when it would have mattered more, not necessarily in terms of the election outcome of, but maybe in terms of law enforcement, actually, looking into these issues have heard the the New York state governmental bodies is going to be looking into all this. I don't know. It's frustrating, and then you get the same thing. Of course, with Kushner, the times did of follow up with Kushner. You see a parallel of Trump just as Donald Trump mooched off Fred Trump and helped him with his criminal aspirations. Kushner is also from a career criminal family. His father, Charles Kushner, went to jail, actually did face consequences. So that sense. He's. Kind of a novelty and Kushner avoided paying taxes for a long time. And you know the times points out, this is more of an example of him abusing legal loopholes of the kind of normalization of white collar crime. So there there's not something really to prosecute them on. But as I said, there's a number of other things you can prosecute Kushner on. So please go ahead and do that. But yeah, you know, I'm I'm, I'm frustrated by this. I'm really frustrated by this all being right out in the open and wondering who the hell is actually going to bring the consequences down because they need to be prosecutorial and they need to focus on finances. And I just, you know, the money trail is there we're all able to follow it. I would assume Muller and others with actual power can follow it. So like why the hell is nothing being done on. On both sides of the country, both political extremes to their rage to the streets street fights in New York on Friday in Portland, Oregon last night pit far, right activists connected to a group called proud boys against the far lefts loosely affiliated mtpa short per anti-fascist showing once again, how America's political conversation is forgetting to use. It's inside voices. The problem boys say they're inspired by President Trump. I think the proud would and I think Donald Trump drives people that have been disenfranchised by most of the public because they don't fit in the Anti-Defamation League says, violent political speech has given a sort of license to street level violence in part. That's because the ability for people to try to leverage the public discussion on the ground is what brings people out, angry words that may translate into violent acts like a of racism and his family. His father was a clan member arrested with some sort of riot the clan created in New York City, and then you have as children like. Ivanka Trump defending the human rights. Crisis created by her White House on the border with children being locked in cages. Children u. falling sick disappearing. Essentially, the US government is kidnapping children from their parents and the just like the lack of oversight the story. The horrendous stories of lack of oversight there. It's like you have to wonder whether some children are being trafficked like what's happening. And it's just it's just disgusting what they've done and they're justifying it in that and it's a racist inhumane policy. And so it's not surprising. Of course, at vodka Trump and her family were brought to power by groups like the proud boys who just had this horrendous display of toxic masculinity in New York City where they beat up some people out the other night, and it's just it's just take this seriously like when nyah Wilson was murdered in Oakland by a white. Man, right when the proud boys were about to have a meeting there and people are like screaming, others, no connection, yes. There is a connection when this young beautiful woman is sitting behind Brad Kavanagh. We find out that young beautiful women were told to groom themselves if they wanted to job Brett Cavanaugh, and she's sitting behind him in the confirmation hearing and she flashes the white power symbol, not once but twice and people are saying, oh, no, stopping, hysterical. That's just a coincidence. No, it's, we'd keep telling you like the Nazis have been empowered by having actual Nazis in the White House, and they do this to show solidarity among each other, the go and beat up complete strangers to show to flaunt their power and exhibit solidarity with each other. So this story going viral and might be a nightmare to the rest of us. Decent people watching this, but for them, they're proud of it. They're cheering it on and it's viral, and it's dangerous. So you had Milo that famous British of far-right troll saying. That you know there should be vigilante squads gutting journalists than a few days. Later gunman opens fire and the capital goods at newsroom in Maryland. There's a connection here like the far right white terrorists have permission to just like the dictators just just like Putin. Just like in the Middle East, they have all the bad guys now have permission to come out and do what they want to do now because of this utter lack of leadership, this vacuum of power in the White House. Right now, we have criminals as Sarah has just pointed out tax dodgers, you know, the new face of the twenty th century mafia in the White House. And so what else do you expect to happen? And they have a racist agenda, violent agenda, and this is all happening on our watch and in our name. Yeah, I think you know the the ability to act with impunity I think is what's changed so dramatically over this year. And I think you know, it's not so much that the shock were off. It's that people are changing their expectation of accountability. And by that, I mean, you should still continue to expect accountability. We have laws, people should be forced to follow them when they are violating the law in a way that involves physical violence against another person that involves persecuting another human being beating them up on the street. But the the bodies, you know that are supposed to enact these laws. Hold them up like the NYPD this weekend. When the proud boys wrote beating protesters on the street are not doing their job, the various apparatus of government that are supposed to keep people in check are not doing their job, and it is frustrating. I think there was this tendency to dismiss groups as trolls to say that they're on the fringes, but the fringes have been brought to the center and they are part of the Republican party. You know, it's part of an. Ongoing propaganda apparatus, their leading the Republican party. They're gonna make a Vonk of the face of the Republican party. You'll see her father may not run again our or he'll run again or he'll never leave power because remember he did say he could see a president being president of her life and any loved what the president of China did and getting rid of term limits. So who knows? It's all open, but it's I would say that the fringe is the Republican party now. Yeah, and it holds all mechanisms of power. I mean, that's why last week. So episode was so incredibly depressing because it was the loss of the judiciary. And you know, we've as a nation, obviously lost our moral footing. I mean, and I don't mean everyone. I mean, our leaders have, but when there's not norms, you have laws. And now we're just finding blatant violations of law by the government in plain sight with no consequences. And that's it's frightening. I don't know what's going to happen in the midterms, but I am very worried. How about the mainstreaming of these extremist policies, especially when it comes to migrant kids on the border. The fact that Trump in Stephen Miller outright saying that the intended, the policy to be cruel to be tortuous as a deterrent, and that people are kind of absorbing this and thinking, you know, yeah, this is normal. This is okay. I guess this is just how it is. I think people forget a lot of the atrocities of our past. They forget they were country where white people used to Lynch, innocent black people, hang them from trees and gather around and smile for a picture that do sent out a postcard. I mean in many ways, the kind of of horrid things that we see on social media in which the proud boys beating up people is sort of touted as this great victories done in plain sight crimes are carried out with impunity. It's not new, you know. It's just an extension of a really horrendous past that we've tried incrementally to move away from and you and there has been progress. But I think this shows just how precipitous are times are and how easily we can move back unless we're vigilant. And so as citizens, you know, that is the power that we have is to stand up for each other is to document these crimes. And atrocities is to call people out and to to never accept it. Always focus on who's getting hurt above anyone else into not cower before people in positions of power in a thority. You know, we have a constitution. We have a Representative government is failing us, yes, but that doesn't mean that we stopped demanding more from them. Yeah. And if you have power, any type of power right now don't abuse it, but you're just as bad as they are. And so that leads us to our discussion on media literacy. What is not being addressed appear by by the people supporting new media is the fact that at the state and local level, it's America's regional newspapers that are collapsed imploding faster, and that in some ways, the industry itself has been oblivious to it because it's sort of like the shark was eating eating everybody from the bottom and the New York Times and the Washington Post felt it last when they have a buy out of one hundred two hundred people and they have a newsroom with thirteen hundred people. It doesn't feel the same as two hundred people walking out of a newsroom of four hundred in a regional area. That means that all of a sudden there's nobody covering the cop shop. Nobody covering the zoning board the day I run into a Huffington Post reporter and a Baltimore zoning board hearing is the day that I will be confident that we've actually reached some sort of equilibrium. You know, there's no glory in that kind of journalism, but that is the bedrock of what keeps you know, got the next ten or fifteen years in this country are going to be a halcyon era for state and local political corruption. There's a couple of conversation that's there and I have been having lately things that are really concerning us. And so we wanted just to remind people walk them through the current landscape of the mainstream media, whether it looks like through the numbers. I'm so I'm going to read from Pew Research newsroom, employment across United States continues to decline driven primarily by job losses at newspapers, and even though digital native news outlets have experienced some recent growth and employment to few newsroom positions where added to make up for recent losses and the broader industry according to Pew Research Center analysis of bureau of labor statistics, occupational employment statistics survey data from two thousand eight to twenty seventeen newsroom employment in the US dropped by twenty three percent in two thousand eight about one hundred and fourteen thousand newsroom employee's reporters editors photographers and videography worked in five industries that produce news, newspaper, radio, broadcast, television. Cable and other information services by 2017. That number declined to about eight thousand a loss of about twenty seven thousand jobs this decline in overall newsroom. Employment was driven primarily by one sector newspapers. So basically if you have a newsroom job, you're doing extremely well right now, and there's very, yeah, that's that's a massive decline in jobs. Twenty-three percent since two thousand eight. And guess what guess, who has the vast majority of the remaining newsroom jobs white men. This is a quote from an NPR article on the crisis of a lack of diversity in the media and why that matters in many of today's newsrooms women and journalists of color remain a sliver of those producing reporting stories. According to studies from the American society of news editors, the women's media center and advocacy group, vita gender and ethnic diversity newsrooms have hardly improved in the last decade despite increasing demand for more inclusive journalism in the current round the clock news cycle nationally, Hispanic, black and Asian women make up less than five percent of newsroom personnel at traditional print and online news publications. According to 2016 data from the American society of news editors, the organization stop requiring the news outlets to reveal their identities and attempt to increase participation in the yearly census numbers from four hundred thirty, three news organizations that participated in twenty fifty. Eighteen and twenty sixteen show a five point. Six percent increase minority workforce now at seventeen percent at print and online news sites. But the numbers lag far behind demographic shifts in a country where nearly forty percent of Americans are part of a minority group around the country. Local newsrooms remain largely white. By most measures in March the women's media center released its annual report and gender representation. The medium, the latest numbers show a tiny change. Thirty seven point. Seven percent of the news was credited female journalists, major national outlets continued to be dominated by men and women actually lost representation and broadcast news, television and a twenty fifteen survey by the group, vita women, the literary arts magazines with a focus on news and culture, such as the New Yorker, the new Republic and Harper's don't fare any better Vitus numbers show that women of color and minorities in general are virtually absent from the political commentary and investigative journalism. These magazines provide though nearly. Twenty percent of the country's population is Hispanic. Very few of these publications had a single vital respondent self report as Hispanic the implications of this generalized absence or manifold and begin at the storytelling level. So to sum up white men, predominantly white men and white women decide the news. They decide to stories that are worth telling the NPR article goes on here, an anecdote of a black female reporter who was a early on the Colin Kaepernick story in looking at the human side of it, looking at his story as you know, not someone who was war with the NFL or breaking rules just to be a rebel, but looking really at. The human rights crisis, looking at this huge story through a human rights crisis lens and what a difference that may made and how early she was to that, and I can tell you, you know, we have more research that we pulled here for this little segment on why versity matters because it's their communities are are the first to be impacted. It's their lives that are literally on the line and a really amazing anecdote to to show how why diversity benefits us all back in November twenty sixteen when you had mainstream media going pumping out these dapper Nazi pieces and essentially becoming Tenaga Fers with the Trump White House out of this horrible scene of like a Batman movie with all the villains are running. Amok comes as caped crusader, and it's team vogue and everyone's like, oh my gosh. Teen vogue is doing some of the best reporting right now and really calling out the Trump regime for what. It is teen vogue, and at the time, at least teen vogue was the person capped. The captain of the ship at teen vogue editor in chief was a black woman. And so there was a reason why teen vogue did not have time to waste, it's and it's because they understood where this was all headed. They minority groups are very sensitive and take seriously the tremors of a police state, and then God for teen vogue for having a black woman at the helm. Elaine Walter Roth to really show leadership in the media at a time we desperately needed it. Yeah, I agree. And you know, you see this in terms of, you know, who is on the ball and identifying threats to civil rights, civil liberties draw. So just generally the quality of journalism on the Trump administration, Malcolm Nance coming out very early with the first Trump rush of book joy reads show being to my knowledge, the first cable news show that explored the topic in dash. She was one. Yeah, absolutely. I thanked joy Reed. I have a tweet from from July. Two thousand sixteen all in caps banking, joy, Reid for covering Russia being one of the very first. Yeah. And what is incredibly frustrating? Is that of course, within media, you know, you see a move in the opposite direction. You don't see opportunities for non white journalists. You know you've seen opportunities across the board disappearing as the economy of news media shrinks, but more and more they go to the most privileged people that go to people who come from certain networks have certain connections can work. Unpaid can work underpaid that locks out most people. But I think it's been particularly damaging toward non white people who historically have just struggled with discrimination despite showing expertise despite often out writing their competitors. I think there's a lot of fear on the part of white media of what would happen if are actually is America Crecy because I think a lot of very mediocre white men. Lose their jobs to black or Hispanic or other writers who have proven ability in who are more skillful and adept at studying this regime. And another very frustrating thing for me is that, you know, I think one of the biggest issues we are facing is this migrant crisis at the border, and we do not have enough journalists who speak Spanish fluently who've come from that background. When we're perhaps the children and families, there would be more likely to trust them. You know, after having this experience with the US government, I think that it's natural for people to be wary of white Americans coming their way. And is this an about filling quotas? This isn't about that. It's about quality journalism that's about and representation in media about empathy and about, you know, access in different ways in one of those forms of access and. I certainly noticed this with Ferguson is that you will get better interviews often if you're from that community. That's why when people wanted me to go, and because I was covering Ferguson early and I live here, I was happy to talk about the dynamics of Saint Louis has happy to talk about, for example, what it's like to be a journalist covering Ferguson. I refused any situation where they asked me as a white woman to quote, speak for the black community. I was like, come on like there are people here who've been dying to tell their stories to see some Justice for their community. Like there are black journalists in Saint Louis who don't have jobs who can do this, like I don't. I mean, I do know what the resistance to this is. It's racism. It's a refusal to acknowledge the talent and the ability of non white journalists. It's white journalists being comfortable with other white journalists. They certainly noticed that when I worked as a journalist in New York City, we can go on from there. But I guess. This is having a really damaging effect on our news media. It's more important than ever for journalism to be diversified in every respect to get a restore told. This is going to become even more challenging as Trump continues to consolidate. So yeah, it's our, it's our obligation to promote quality journalism where we find it and expand opportunities that means giving up some of our own opportunities then fine. No, yeah. Stacey Abrams who's the first black woman to run for your bible candidate to run for governor in Georgia, and she's up against Brian Kemp who has secretary say of Georgia who's been running Georgia like a third world country in terms of how it votes like a former Soviet state. That's like, how. Deeply rotten Georgia's election systems. Are she said it's not about the Blue Wave in November twenty eighteen. It's about creating the kind of community. The Blue Wave is about creating the kind of country we want. And if you really look at the research, if you want some unifying message for the Democratic Party for the opposition that's going to unite us all and build a stronger progressive nation that really reflects the the overwhelming decency that we do have in America. It is simply this, it's that diversity, greater diversity is great for business across the board. Just look at the research. It's I'm going to read now from two thousand eighteen article in tech crunch. Diversity is good for business, not just from the ethical standpoint, but from the perspective of a company's bottom line according to McKinsey and company as a follow up to its why diversity matters study in two thousand fifteen MacKenzie analyzed more than one thousand companies across twelve countries looking at their respective profit. And value creation companies than top core tile for ethnic diversity. At the executive level, thirty, three percent more likely to have above average profitability than companies in the bottom core tile according to mckinsey's report delivering through diversity. And essentially the same goes for gender diversity with companies in the top core tile for gender, diversity being twenty. One percent more likely to have above average profitability than companies in the bottom core tile in the top core tile financial services are overrepresented for gender diversity while telecom media and technology companies are disproportionately represented in a lowest core tile. So that's not surprising that media fails. Their diversity of different types also matters. MacKenzie found a statistically significant correlation between a more diverse leadership team and financial outperformance. So meanwhile, the article goes on to say the least diverse companies. The ones in the bottom percentiles for both gender and ethnicity are twenty nine percent less likely to outperform. In profitability. So for those who want to make the outdated argument that it's a pipeline problem, McKinsey notes how women received thirty five percent and thirty three percent of bachelor and masters degrees respectively yet make up just seventeen percent of executives. Meanwhile people of color received thirty percent of the bachelor degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math since two thousand yet just twelve percent of executives, McKinsey sample or people of color, McKinsey points to Salesforce as an example of a company that delivers on diversity and inclusion, noting its decision to create a c. suite role of chief equality officer, and it's worked to close the gender, pay gap, crafting a truly effective inclusion. Diversity strategy is no small effort and requires strong and sustained inclusive leadership. The report states, but we and many of the companies we studied indepth believe the potential benefits of stronger business performance are well worth it. Now what stood out to me? One of the many things set out to me and this art tech crunch article from. Early twenty eighteen is a Salesforce. I actually one of my first interviews as a journalist, I interviewed Mark Benny off the founder and now Cosio. He was co for very long time, but he recently switched to co-ceo. So Mark, Benny off one of my first interviews is a journalist, and it was a stupid little interview. We did where I was asking him because I was still young journalist, cutting my teeth in newsroom, and I was asking him the Simon was to find out what was on his desk. What is office was like what he surrounded himself with, and I'll never forget it. Mark, Benny off had a iota doll on his desk, and this is somebody who you know Mark Benny off has been known to quote Star Wars, and the man is a billionaire, and he's achieved over time a company that is a leader and showing that diversity is a strength that diversity is is is great for business and MacKenzie MacKenzie. Talk about like late capitalism, McKenzie's. He first and foremost. Even by the almighty dollar. They're not doing this because it's like Disney's a small world. They're saying, no, the numbers add up looks really good. You guys should really do this for your bottom line and Mark, Benny off being leader of that and really showing that why why matters and why it looks good. I'm not surprised that this is a man who has iota on his desk front and center and is driven by something like a higher ideal and that higher ideal paying them off and a very big way and being very good for business. I was really touched by that because you never know a girl, never forgets one of her first interviews and so that was really nice to see. So all of that goes to say, now, let's look at the dark side of what happens when you don't have a lot of diversity in the media, you get stories like Joe Bernstein and BuzzFeed doing a series of articles talking about what joy Reid may or may not have blog d- ten years ago, I simply don't care, does joy Bernstein not believe in evolution. All of us have blog. Stupid stuff and tweeted stupid stuff. Every single one of us in our lives. It's just human nature. We're, we're, we're dumb like global warming is coming for us like humans are nearly, you know, we're not. We all blog stupid stuff. And speaking of Joe Bernstein provides his own example when he tweeted recently, he tweeted one depressing thing about the US in two thousand eighteen is there isn't a writer, novelist journalist SAS who's capable of synthesizing the moment. Well, he got massively wrote ratio for that with like hundreds of people calling him out and some people calling out Sarah Ken Zere as a prime example of somebody who from the start has warned us about Trump winning and from the start has synthesizes the moment in so many ways. Sarah, like I could objectively point out the fact that your essay be all of us having to be the light now for ourselves that went viral in thousand sixteen when when when people. Our coma toes was shock. Over Trump's surprise election. Then you had a bunch of tech leaders signing a letter saying they'll they'll never fall in line with any authoritarian bharata Genda and they were quoting your work as well. So that had a big impact. And I could objectively say it's a fact that you self published a book of essays being a journalist or writer in a industry that is massively shrinking with jobs, a massive decline of jobs in the last ten years alone. And so you self published a book of essays to support yourself and your family. And it was all about showing the hidden casualties of income inequality in America. And when the first woman candidate for the highest office in our country, who many leaders had pointed out was probably the most qualified when she had her election stolen from her through this coalition of corruption. And she came out and graciously began giving speeches again, try to inspire the nation forward. And one of her first speeches, she quoted your book and then New York publishing finally came knocking and put it out and it became a New York Times bestseller. So I would say objectively, not as your friend, but objectively your record speaks for itself and the fact that you're visible to Joe, Joe Bernstein. You know, it's not surprising that he's somebody if you're invisible to him, it's not. It's not surprising that he just lacks such a self awareness of his own privilege. The fact that he even has a newsroom job and he's wasting his, he's wasting that power that privilege on what joy Reid may or may not have blog, ten years ago. I simply do not care. None of us should care, especially when you have children locked up in cages. Yeah, I don't get it either. I mean, I'm not real broken up about like what you Verne's things are doesn't think of me like, I don't, you know, hunger for the praise of people that I don't think about our respect. I guess you know, one thing I would want to add is that it is. It is a pretty unbelievable comment because there's so many other people who are doing good and vital work during this time. I mean, just in this episode alone talked about Gary Kasparov. We talked about Yod l. Dadi there have also been other female journalists who've been mocked her scorn. Hysterical and alarmist as they cover this. Rebecca Solnit is someone who's very good who experienced that Masha Gessen to some degree experience that as well. And Carol culled Halder was recently the target of a, you know, BuzzFeed hit piece in which they just, you know, nitpicked your career. She's the British journalist who brought Cambridge Analytica and its role in Brexit to the four spurring and international investigation. You know, there have been a lot of people working in very difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions to try to bring these stories to the public. And I wouldn't really say they're ignored. It's always weird when people say that about me, it's like, you know, I have a best seller. I've been on late night TV on TV regularly. Like I have a pretty big audience. I wouldn't describe myself as ignored. I'm like, what you mean is that powerful groups of white men in politics and media. Don't like me or won't recognize my work. And that's not who I right for. You know, I write for the public. I right to try to inform people and I write what I believe, and it's not about the career ladder or social climbing for me. And you know, I'm pretty blunt about my opinions of the media. And yeah, I mean, maybe that's been a problem for me, but whatever, like that's the point especially now, especially in times like that. I guess that's the thing that really blows my mind is prioritizing the stories we're telling because I feel like as a general rule you should, you know, as the old saying goes, afflict the powerful and comfort the afflicted. And that's just not what a lot of folks are doing. It's not even value that they seem to share. Instead, it's this insular attacking of other journalists like the obsessive Wiki leaks style attacks on joy Reid or just kind of ignorance of whole communities of the US. That are being badly hurt by the administration in favor of focus. For example, on white Trump voters or New York Times, it's now soliciting articles asking for non white Trump's supporters to share whether they feel persecuted in. Meanwhile, you have children in cages. You have white supremacist roaming the streets and beating people up, and that's not viewed as as important as the feelings of this extremely small group of people that I think the times is seeking to hold up as exemplars of a larger movement that just frankly just not exist, and you can look at the voting numbers, purchased commentary general to see that that doesn't exist, but they want it to and and that's just it's a problem that we, we all have to face. I feel like the only solution is to just be persistent and be honest and call it out, call it out. So when Carol cod Waller. So she has. She's a freelance that's that's very insecure position of being and financially insecure. And she's been using all resources available to and she was called, but she was branded a conspiracy theorist, and then she went on to win the Orwell prize for her reporting, really showing the friends IX on Russian interference in the Brexit vote and really put in pulling all the pieces together showing how Brexit and Trump are the same crime. Now, the UK government is betraying the British people by not confronting this and taking the seriously and and using it using all of her research as really strong argument why by Brexit needs to be stopped and and the fact that she's really taken upon herself to beat his voice of reason and letting all the research speak for itself. And in here, she has his really petty nonsense attack against her in BuzzFeed out of the UK and here. And so it's really wonderful sort of answer to this pettiness and abusive power primarily by white men in the in the media. You have. Of women in the media, calling it out, which is what's going to make it finally go away and become outdated. So you have Lois Beckett, a senior reporter at the guardian and the US she wrote, I usually love BuzzFeed. But this mornings hit piece on Carol Walla is petty personal on the way out of line. Anyone who has worked on a big multi newsroom investigation knows that the process always messy and always strained. There's always drama, but the impact of these collaborations for readers ability is huge. So Lois goes on to really, you know, call them out and taking the task and then and then another example of this which recently happened Andrew Kaczynski and Chris Massey. Now at CNN wrote some bizarre piece saying how. A Chris Christie Christian cinema who is running for Senate in Arizona, how she associated with a prominent nine eleven truth or and told a radio host that she didn't care if he joined the Taliban rate. Wow, I'm shocked. I'm going to give you some rage. Click bait there on that article of yours, but then Natasha, portraying to the Atlantic stops me because she fact checks it and pulls from the article itself and says, quote, CNN's k. file found no evidence that variety promoted those theories when cinema was a co host or that cinema doors such theories at any time. Basically, she's saying that an entire shipper trend. God bless her. One of our favorites basically went tasha pointing out is that this bullshit article was grasping for straws. So what they like to do is really label women as as nutty or slutty as we saw the need a hill, what she went through and white men in the media, not recognizing that journalists, journalism, newsroom, jobs, it's like, endure. Injured species. Now, like you have to really understand that you have to work harder now to ground yourself in trying and trying to compensate for all the loss of those newsroom jobs, especially on the local beats and get into the weeds on local issues and protect local communities that are losing their newspapers, like be driven by public service, not this bizarre, weird abuse of power that you're falling into. That's just pure pettiness and we're not saying, you know, you can't hold women accountable or go after women or whatever, or not saying that we're saying have some priorities like we're, we're, we're living at a time when we're being hit with multiple crises at once from inequality to global warming to an immigration crisis, which is now a human rights crisis. So please, we need your help and we need you to ask yourself every time you approach a story. Is this newsworthy shirts newsworthy because joy Reid in it or this Senate candidate Arizona's in it that makes it newsworthy, okay. Then ask her. Self, is it for the public? Good is is empathy at the center of this story? Is this going to save people's lives in some way? That's how you need to start approaching your work. You last remaining newsroom employees that are so lucky to have your jobs and your benefits and your security. The security you seem to have left, and so please take full advantage of that power and don't abuse it because we desperately need you to do your jobs and be strong traditional Muckraker journalists enough with this petty nonsense. It's really heartbreaking. So this will conclude our media literacy one on one. So just remember the white men and white women get to decide who gets credibility and who gets labeled and white women. If you try to join the boys club and play along with them. So your work matters. You know, it's, there's report Laura Mcgann and vox rights. Anyone that follows beltway Twitter knows it's deeply insular and self involved world dominated by men who almost exclusive. Wli speak to each other. But now there's research to prove it quote when mail journalists replied, other beltway journalists reply to another male journalists ninety. One point five percent of the time. According to said, it'd be published in the international journal of press politics titled Twitter makes it worse. Political journalists, gender echo chambers in the amplification of gender bias of the twenty-five reporters who received the most replies for mayo, political reporters, zero were women. So, yeah, so white women, you can try to play along and joined the boys club, but ultimately you will be ignored. You will be marginalized. And so it really needs to happen is what Natasha Bertrand was doing. What Lois Beckett was doing is you have to call out this abusive power when it happens. And I do believe that this sort of behavior will get phased out. And I do believe. We are heading towards a fair and free world. We have to fight for it and just like sit at Harry block. Amazon said in our last interview, which inspired me so much when you love a community when you love something, you fight for it, you're not afraid and all your courage to speak out to use your voice comes from that love. Again, a black woman showing how it's done, showing leadership for the rest of us because lives are literally a steak now. And another thing I want to just remind men white men out there who might get a little tingle of adrenaline rush because you think you feel threatened. Do you think were coming for your jobs? It's simply not that and we have to say this because it's our job to make learning fun and that is we love men. Men are wonderful. Men are great. And just to give you an example of what we're talking about when we when we demand gritter quality, it's simply this think back on some of the movies that have come out recently like Melissa McCarthy, any any any type of movie that you've seen recently and remember a time when Christopher Hitchens in Vanity, Fair and twenty in two thousand. Seven wrote a column titled why women aren't funny. Okay. Why women aren't funny now today it's like I could sit here and just list off all the women comedians out there. But what's the point? It'd be like listing off all the men comedians out there. They're just so many of them and we as a country, we had a massive moment of healing where right after Donald Trump became inaugurated, president had states. Melissa McCarthy came out and brought a nation together when she was Sean Spicer. That was a pivotal moment in America's healing like that brought us together. So. And when she did that, I thought of Christopher Hitchens Vanity. Fair article from twenty two thousand seven. Why women aren't funny. So when we talk about greater equality, it's you benefiting from the militia, Melissa McCarthy's in the world you don't. It's like, we're not taking your jobs, we're bringing you value. And if you ever an also ask yourself, you know, like, well, is it going to be a matriarch, the women taking over simply not. It's just we need to balance the playing field for everyone's benefit because diversity is good for business. Diversity protects us. Whenever you think a woman can't be president, it's dates, for example, or all these little like misogynistic pettiness and the media will never go away. Go watch a women's gymnastics video from nineteen thirty six where they're essentially just doing jumping jacks and compare it to women's gymnastics video in twenty-six teen where the women, the Americans gymnastics seems practically a team ninjas so so progress takes time. But we're, we need to excel around that time by fighting for and calling out this abusive behavior. Yeah, absolutely. We have got a contest winner. We have got a contest winner. Okay. So we aghast nation enacted the one thousand knocking on doors, the one thousand doors challenge here, gasoline nation where we're calling on all of our listeners to you. Have a great stroll getting out the vote. It's one of those infective ways to reach boaters. So if the goal is for us to reach one thousand dollars between now and election day November six, the winner will receive a signed copy of Sarah's book and and an invitation to come on our show and talk with us about your dreams for your country. And every week we're going to be giving away a signed copy of Sarah's book from a country to people that go to crush the midterms out org and within seconds Crete their plan on how they plan a crush the midterms and create the Blue Wave on November six, it's very easy to do, and you'll learn about all these cool opportunities to take advantage of your talents to help create the Blue Wave. So on today's show, we're going to just randomly announce a winner just blindfolded here. So the winner is telling me wanna stop, Sarah. Stop only got him. He'll on and the winner of the crush the midterms, gasoline. Nation challenge is at patent pray. Congratulations patent pray. We'll be sending you a signed copy of Sarah's book. If you didn't win it this week, you're still in the running for next week. We're going to announce the winner every week. And now next up, we have a really inspiring interview with a woman who never ceases to amaze me. She's a novelist, a successful novelist and a mother and Antony. She's a civic servant and she's helping us all through a very important initiative on how we can turn state governments, blue an undo many years of Karl Rove's agenda for the Spar right takeover said that interview begins now. Interview that we are very excited or we are speaking with some wonderful women who are going to direct our attention and our resources to bury critical yet overlooked battlegrounds, and that is a fight for states. So could you to introduce yourselves in terms of what you do in this larger picture of trying to turn state's Blue Cross union? Sure. How many Melissa Walker and I am actually an author of team novels in middle grade novels. And since the two thousand sixteen election, I have really turned my attention to state legislatures, and I formed a group a not has raised money to try to flip state chambers from red to blue. And in doing that, I discovered a model for giving circles political, giving circles that I have been able to bring. Ring to elicits organization future. Now, tell other people form similar groups and help states kind of take back their progressive power running is Eliza cast on the political director at feature now, ride privilege or. Asaka and rube slight are seeing that groups, activated motivated unsurprising. When did you ready? Women can corral collective power to have a huge impact on flipping stayed modulated chambers across the country and and going on offense and advancing of Russell agenda in key stays in five concedes this year. So the reason why I really wanna talk to you. I remember vividly November twenty seventeen meeting up with Melissa, the novelist for drinks and New York City. And this was I think, no, sorry, it was October. It was up Tober and it was days before the round of special elections in November, twenty seventeen, and Melissa. You're one of the few people that I came across the actually had any sort of optimism and. You were telling me explaining me all this great science. A lot of these great groups redoing to flip district's blue and it was just like this breath and fresh air. And I was so energized by. I remember calling Sarah Kenzi rapper that and saying, oh my gosh, you would not believe what's happening. I think this is the sign of something much bigger and lo and behold, the campaigns you're telling me about in Virginia and Washington state saw a huge Blue Wave humming. And so a lot of that optimism that you shared with me on the verge of those historic elections with was very much deserved. And so that's why I'm just like rushing to you now for hopefully some some good signs and good news and also some. Important realism that we need in order to get grounded and really win the important battles ahead. Yeah. So I remember that night too. I'm glad I was right to be optimistic. I, you know, I had spent much of two thousand seventeen really learning about the power of state governments and how much they can do for people. And that in itself gave me off them because as someone who doesn't have you know, millions of dollars to donate to political races, I felt like I could not make an impact at the federal level. And when I really learned about the state level was that not only is less money, make a huge impact, but also the impact of electing different leaders at the state level is arguably bigger than changing the federal level my group, and I did all this research and led by Daniel squadron who was kind of our north star on this idea. And we looked into how much states influence all the things that we truly care about education policy, the environment gun safety, healthcare choice, voting rights, civil rights, those. Are all things that are decided in state capitals state by state. And so when we really learned about the Republican takeover object red map, how twenty six states have a conservative trifecta, meaning they have the governor's mansion. They have majorities in both houses of the legislatures and they can really pass anything they want it. And the Democrats have that in seven states when we started eight states. Now. It really, it really honed my focus and I wanted everyone I know to turn their attention to this level of government as well. And so our, our money that we raised for the Washington state election and for the house of delegates elections went very far and added to all the grass roots movements that were coming up some of the favorites state organizations that we worked with in that we talked to all along, you know, flippable. There's a lot of great work being done to state level, and we were really, really proud of them, Virginia. It was our first chance to partner with future now fund because they had just started up in actually, I think they'd launched in October two death, seventeen. So probably right when I saw you and we were really excited to go in with them into Virginia, it's ten candidates with really like not a lot of money was under twenty thousand dollars. Each candidate was like between five and twenty thousand dollars each candidate, and we were in the top three biggest givers to nine of those ten candidates. So it's that kind of money that goes so far in these state races and nine of those ten when their seats by the way and Virginia expanded Medicaid. So four hundred thousand new Virginians have Medicaid because of how close we came to flipping the house of delegates. We got within one seat while and unless I could you talk a little bit about future now how you guys got. Started and what your big goals are and what that time looks like. Are you do you have a ten year timeline? One of your time and like what are your big dreams for our country? We have very Majorie country. We have actually, a big part of our innovation is, is an agenda we have for the country falls. America's goals. America's goals is trying to argue is you know, an author like Melissa wouldn't start a young adult novel without an outline. Someone who's doing the Lena house Bill the house without a blueprint. And so if we really want to get our country arm traffic, we have to have an agenda to do that. So America's goals are it's good jobs, it's health care. It's investing kids, it's getting special interests out of our politics. It's promoting equal opportunity for everyone. It's sustainable infrastructure and clean water. And so we're pretty zealous about. That agenda. And so when we look at states that were willing to invest in the candidates, we're going to support to do that. We look at stage where we think we can meaningfully move the needle to a, you know, against those goals. And we always support candidates that also support, you know these ambitious, but we think really reachable. You know. So with that kind of framing in mind is how we go about doing our heart. We do. We did a rigorous analysis of all nine nine hundred numbers. Interestingly Rosca has camp role. Legislators. That's why here at ninety nine hundred. But we looked at the at the nine Yang chambers. We thought, where is there a path to to building a new majority states and where is the biggest policy opportunity? It's not really enough to just flip states or to just let you know individual seats. It's exciting. It's exciting when you've love ac- but it's not enough. It's about how Bill for a base of progressive power for years to come and how to let people that we know are committed to the same holes. We are so with kind of that, you know ambition in mind is how not to the work or doing this year because of the incredible work that you didn't Virginia through this or of generous groups like Melissa's, you're able to expand. Our work into seats this year in resume. Now, Michigan, Bain, Yoon Hampshire in North Carolina, really excited about what we're seeing enough and no me pick states that are deliberately. No, they're hard to flat. Like we made it our lives like free deliberately, dental, we could've states where we saw kind of an easy street to flip. Upper, we deliberately picked stage where the path is narrow, but we're, we know that if neat changed the majority in Arizona things means forget any Aaron. Shona, for instance, is Bruce known some of the most extreme anti choice mesh on the most streamed anti immigration. And those houses have been shit out of Arizona a non-national. So have you been stopped at, you know, go some outpatients, your own worms, bad Halsey coming from also have not Tunde advanced, really awesome policies, the state like Arizona, that's that's changing the lives of millions of people to do that five times over. So this is really interesting because the work you're doing is very much at the heart of it is the state's rights versus the federal government. And it's such an important reminder. Are of as as your site future. Now, dot org says the Flint water prices. That's a state level issue schools, resources to teach. That's a state level issue, healthcare that costs too much in cures to little voting laws, congressional maps that discriminate all state level issues. So even at the federal government is in the hands of somebody like the Trump family on the state level, you can still fight your heart out and organized to turn your state blue and an enact. A lot of these policies to create a more progressive union a, and I think actually something that's really raw crystallized. The impact of states is the confirmation of accountable. I mean, no matter. I mean, it's really depressing it that you know, even if we flipped congress, and if Trump's a one. Knowing the supreme Horace still gonna have extreme by Justice, conservative majority any away push back against that. This the, the harm and destruction that that five member conservative who are in advance is to do it in the states. If you're someone who's came sir, that s case scenario supreme court is going to allow road diet death, five million confident a worst case is going to overturn it. We to fight in the states if you're concern that Trump core is gonna hold courtroom insurance over the address right people time time. Again, we're tackled corporate interested in know hell or high water that fight that in the seats. And you know, it's really for Melissa made our mission at our field out for. Yeah, we've actually really teared up over that. That's a couple of weeks together and I, you know, one thing. I mean, I think ro is a really good example. You know, a lot of states twenty six Republican trifecta states that I mentioned earlier will really start to absolutely get rid of a woman's right to choose and and blue trick. ACTA states and even states where a couple of couple, maybe the governor in one legislatures blow. It was dates will start putting in laws that protect women. You know, New York's when of New York's first bowls on it, we can get a true blue state Senate is to get our joint spill up to speed. It's not where it needs to be. And so those protective laws can do so much for the citizens of the states where. There's progressive people in power and just to give up kind of a positive spin on what we're talking about in terms of last year in Washington state where we helped the entire state to a blue trifecta. And since that state since that that one-seat has flipped, we've seen the legislature just one session since then, you know, has a bump stock ban and ban LGBTQ conversion therapy and pass a bunch of environmental laws that have been bottlenecked by that one CJ family hidden eliminate yet an automatic voter registration. So in these states that have leur governments it, they make it easier for people to vote, and that's gonna be something that's really important in terms of the supreme court to they're really in a position now to limit people's voting access and in a mindset to do such it states can push. I'm not in its. That's arguably one of the most important things that states can do for democracy. How did they get so bad? How did the Democrats lose so many states over the last decade? You know, there's a few answers to that, but I think one of the biggest answers if that we got really excited about Obama winning the presidency and an controlling things at the federal level in everybody kind of had stars in their eyes. You know, Obama was really elected by a democratic coalition that didn't Goodall fifty states the fifty state strategy and add after he was elected people. I think kind of rest on their laurels a little bit, and we really haven't funded state races in a meaningful way. An Republicans have, you know, the coke brothers and their ilk have come in and really taking things over at the state level. And you know, we lost Voss almost two thousand state seats since two thousand eight and the truth is bad. Losing those seats made people's lives worse. You know the the states that enact right to work laws and you know Oklahoma, many of the schools have four days of school because public education isn't founded, and there are all these things that made people's lives that, but a lot of times people don't look to their state legislatures for those answers in look at the president in maybe they look at their senators in their hours. People going to Washington DC where they should be looking is that their state capital in their local governments because that's where the problems line many cases and it's really where this Lucien lie. Rawlins have all was done a good job. Understanding that states are powerful in their own riot that all these laws that affect, you know, health care education, climate policy that they're they're a large or decided in the states and as a party. The democrat will listen. I included a lean in power of federal government, but that doesn't mean we don't also since are really powerful there. Right? And you know being something that frankly, we still struggle with. Union, you know today as you see democrat rooms, increasing fine religion about about cities that often the narrative is Abou redistricting that states are powered whole because they feel drawn congressional districts and that's true. It's true that huge power. She tap that they're also powerful determining, you know, is your kid get a decent education. There also are they're not teachers air. Those basic things are not determined by it often by the federal government buyer states. So young cry really believe that Democrats, you know, on your came to understand through power, a rare state, I'm in the role that the the plays in their lies. You'll see a lot, our mental, an interest from Democrats mistakes. So exciting is that for people. How really in like stage. Really exciting to support a credible congressional or message were helping. And you should do that. But also you should support state legislators because flipping entire state legislative chamber Haas one heads as much as winning one competitive. He rush hour race like that's huge. Why has this been overlooked? Melissa has explained to me that it's just not as sexy as some of the other causes out there that people could support. If what did you talk about sort of perception versus the perception problem into this? Is Melissa again? I think you know, I think that one thing that happens is that we, at least I had a basic lack of knowledge about state legislatures. I mean, I, I think that ninety nine percent of the people I talked to him not identify with our state Senator or a state house member are. They can usually name their senators in there are congress people, the people who go to DC for them very rarely in someone named for me, the person that goes to their state capital and there's it just it's a body that operates in shadow in some sense because people aren't aware in other governor in other federal ups, but below that it gets really easy for people. And so that's part of it. I think part of it might be like the loss of like good local news coverage in all of us focusing on big national news all the time. I think that part of it too. I can say that Melissa speaks of people don't do their Sheila, lay our hands or no, the power that they have. Album that in. I'm more that late has lived in Greaves national all politics, refreshing Twitter since I was a kid, but I think Marie-Noelle legislator, Jen and how one of the reasons high not future now, fine. Was Daniel Walker in our active director was my state Senator from nearly a decade. And I started flat cool really cold time by me. Vermont. Affordable housing projects at were really gate. People, dignity like incredible Carrick scene. And I saw like in this part that there is a plaque that had the animal's name on. And I said, who the hell is this? The animals lodger like, what is he you are, I will didn't. You use my state legislature, he's my seat center, and I thought, like I guess they do that just like Dr Chow. They have real. And you know when Pete behind card at it pretty clear to see how they are most of you talk about. You share this with me before and it was terrifying. What are you up against in terms of Karl Rove's the brain of the far-right takeover country. What are you up against in terms of the conservative strategy, the conservatives nightmares for our country Baidu a lot. They do a lot of funding at the state and local level in a have for decades. They leave the comforter to announced with. They're putting six hundred million dollars in the state races this year nuts. Just what's been publicly announced. They will definitely be better funded than the Democrats. But the good news is always looking for the silver lining. The good news is that we don't have to fund democratic candidates to the same level. We just need to fund our candidates enough so they can get their message out because when we find candidates enough so that they can not on all the doors so that they can have a Mailer so that they can have a digital ads that it can be out in their district. Tht meeting people. We can win those races because state legislature districts, you can really reach your voters and talk to them in when you do turns out, the democratic message is better people like it better. I'm gonna give you health care. Like we're gonna. We're gonna help you improve your life. And that message resonates with voters when they're able to hear their candidate speak and we need to fund our candidates to get them out there meeting people. And what we see in, you know, there are, you know, in the five saints were working in this cycle, they're obviously different parts of the country with your different types of voters, different touchy issues, but we hear the same things again and again, like the issues like across the top three issues in almost Egypt he's in each of these days is generally the same. It's health care is education among no surprise to me is, is water like clean water is not just read Michigan issue. It's on main issue, or they have a credibly hiring of lead poisoning in ours. Why it's a new water as an issue, North Carolina in. So these are issues were Democrats win and where people in Romney pains do RAV campaigns, armies issues the candidates that I speak to candidates. We've been doors. These are people who are being on thousands of doors in their district and tell us they are not off Trump voters. If they're even if they're hearing about trial on MSNBC or Fox News, not thinking about your top me candidates, they're asking about the roles, their local fly and be able to afford health care. Could you speak a little bit about the conservative plan to call a constitutional convention to change our constitution or towards in a way that would be more advantageous to the Republicans. That's a real thing that they are really gunning for that. I don't think people realize how close they are to calling a constitutional convention. So yeah, they're actually gonna look up the exact numbers, but I know that there's a certain number of legislative bodies within you'd majorities in in order to call it institutional convention. And it's definitely been a goal of the Kirk machine. And one of the one of the main goals that they have with that is the Baid like to repeal the popular election of senators which is terrifying. So it would mean that governors around the country would appoint senators and they have a lot of governors that's been a big part of their plan in the state takeover. Yet the states, you know, in states where legislators draw the redistricting line, they get to control congress, get the governors and get enough chambers to call a constitutional. Convention and eliminate the election of senators. It's a truly terrifying. Future that we've gone in towards and it it's called project, read map and you know, the more I read about it, there's an amazing book called, excuse my French on rat fact by Dave daily about it and about the whole plan, and they've really laid it out. And you know, Colorado had an editorial in the Wall Street Journal that the sub head was whoever controls the state's control towers. And it was just like, wow, they put it out there and they were saying all along and we still really didn't take our eyes off federal level. We didn't find the states where they needed to be funding. Sates also question Palley wanted. I mean, the Republicans have built incredible in-state infrastructure like this. It's not as excitable to talk about it, but they have he'd be Bill Reese worse than muscle memory state Arar elections, where they can seize in. Troll of legislative majorities and Democrats say it's really important farm inspire on candidates fall. He holy informant fund. Yeah, TV's that allow states to have the best you'll program cycle off your the best digital infrastructure, sign alive, simul those things, and now we're all right, right. So it's about building the fifty state strategy that got Obama elected in the first place in two thousand eight and just keeping it permanent and having it set up so that it's not only protecting our elections are democratic candidates cycle after cycle, but also a pushing through the policies. We need to really raise the bar on quality of life. You're in America an undo a lot, a generations of damage by a lot of these Republican policies in some of these states. So there's a two thousand seventeen Daily Beast article, the conservative plan to rewrite the constitution. And yes, it's a thing end they remind us that it only takes thirty four states to call for a constitutional convention and Republicans are. Very close. They have of late two thousand seventeen. There are thirty two state legislatures controlled by Republicans in thirty four Republican governorships. Yeah. Yeah, it's very scary. I think one large is that we should take Republicans. There were like when they say they're gonna do stuff, they're gonna try to do stuff. Shouldn't ask that these things are either that all or in extreme Joe. You are the generally? Yeah. Okay. So how do we get involved? How can people is seeing this involved in help your organization future now and what? What are some practical steps that they can take? Sure. Well, we do have an amazing giving circles program, which is groups of people banding together to raise money for these five states that we talked about. And again, small amounts of money make a huge difference. So we have groups that have just formed in the past week. They've kind of hit the ground running and they have goals of raising some groups are trying to make thousand dollars among their friends. Family. Some groups are trying to twenty five thousand dollars ahead of November n everybody's really activated Energi. So that's definitely one thing started giving circle future. Now, dot or end. The other way is that they're always Beijing giving circles that are on. That are already running and you can support them like each of them is Wayne's. Why doing what they're doing? Why they're not from the adopted, what the stakes are nuking your on it out. Which states are you in again, you're in five states. Now, Arizona. Michigan in Michigan's, really exciting is for the first time, Noor is of in the Michigan house of Jordan on the Canada, democratic candidates, diverse women. So that's an important Michigan flood, North Carolina made a New Hampshire and if somebody wanted to start this in their state and could you help them do that is just as simple as starting a giving circle that's connected with you Gernon plugged in with you, or are you gonna? Do you have a plan on how you plan to enter other states? Well, ahead of twenty eighteen. There's not time for us to go into it launched into another state, but the game. Circle program will definitely expand. There's there's some states that have races in twenty nineteen thinking about Jinya in Louisiana specifically. And then of course, in twenty twenty all the states would be on the table again and in future. Now, fund will expand to support many more states. So if people are interested in starting giving circle for their own state in, it's not one of our chosen stay is absolutely something to get in touch about that can be pursued for the next cycle. Great. So thank you so much this important discussion. Another reminder that you have to get involved now and maintain the long view if you'd like to know more checkout Neutra now, dot org. Gasoline. Nation is produced by Sarah zero, Andrea, and our editor is Colin dago. Thank you Carlin if you want to help us leave review on itunes, every review helps us build our audience. Our out from us is by Nick far. Thank you so much, Nick who want to give a special. Thank you to our donors at the producer level and patriotic and Marshall arena cardia and Peter case we can't do the show without you and check out our patriot, if you like what we do things for listening.

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#117 America's Hottest Talkline

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1:01:42 hr | 8 months ago

#117 America's Hottest Talkline

"This episode. Is brought to you by at and T. Five G. throughout history searches. New Technology wasn't complicated. Ancient Roman aqueducts made water fast, reliable, secure, and nationwide electricity made kindles fast reliable, secure and nationwide today there's at and T. Five G.. Reliable secure and nationwide. It's kind of a no brainer at and T. Five G. It's not complicated. Five G. requires compatible plan may not be in your area see at and dot com slash five G. for you for details. This episode is brought to you by Northrop Grumman. Are you ready to take on challenges to protect and connect the World Northrop Grumman has thousands of careers across the country and around the globe for all skills and all skill levels start defining possible at Nj C. Dot com slash careers. Alex Goldman. Pj Vote. Sounds. Suspicious already So voice we the show we have a big announcement we are very excited about, yeah we're adding a third host at somebody already know. Manual. CIANCI Emmanuel Hello Hi guys, and to be clear adding a new host does not mean getting rid of one of the old ones I didn't tell you. You're not getting rid of any of our existing spur. We are adding Emmanuel as a hosta pile and basically the idea behind this move is like we just WanNa, give a manual more space and support to do stories like the ones he's done like big ambitious reported pieces like his three parter. Alabama. Democrats from the winter or history this summer about white people sending by people reparations on Ben Mo-. You mean the story about like white people trying to like give people what they deserve. Yes that story. But just to say, that is not visit Yes. This promotion is not reparations in action It's just a reflection of the fact that we have a super talented reporter armor staff who is going to get older more stage to tell stories on. monkey PJ. Yeah, Basically. What you need to know listener is that the show is still going to be the show me and Alex are still going to be here telling each other stories laughing at jokes you shouldn't necessarily expect manual every single story you probably isn't soupy NTSC US no unless you're wants to we just want him to have the space to do more ambitious work. I really hope people are even half as excited as Alexander about this. Anytime, we've made any changes to show some people freaked out literally after our second episode. There are people telling us that we changed much and the old stuff was better. Is that true? Yes. Yes. They said that we were doing stories about apps now and we'd sold out. Yeah that's right. It's used to be a really creative show. They do stories best stories house. Basically, the main thing I wanted to say is our show is gonNA keep changing, and while we hope that you like these changes, they are not totally for you making the show is a privilege it is a pleasure but for us, it is only worth it to sent that we can keep it interesting, keep different and keep it challenging. We'd rather stop and repeat ourselves. So. This is we are today on the costs of our shows six birthday. We've got new hosts Emmanuel you under the from Gimblett. Yeah? Okay From Gimblett. Reply All. coachie. and. I have a real bang of story if you guys today, let's hear. Back in April. From. A REPORTER FRIEND OF MINE DOWN IN MISSISSIPPI. She told me about this one really weird event that took place that she hasn't been able to stop thinking about. So, say you fool name for me and what you do. I'm Lisa Xl, and I'm a reporter for the Clarion Ledger. It's the newspaper in Jackson Mississippi and normally she's like pretty big investigative reporter she you and political stuff happens down there but also like their prisons. And I ended. It was just kind of like, Hey, you know it's a weekend shifts as a couple of. Feel. Good news stories buzzing around today. Why don't you just of like right one of these news pieces up. They were looking for some levity during this time and writing `bout only berry serious sad krona virus news for. Like two months now people could use a break, just do a new story. And like that day there was a story that broken twitter the Mississippi Emergency Management, agency nicknamed memo which as the name suggests handles like big disasters and stuff Basically, what happened is Meena and Mississippi Department of Health, and out like this big email to all these regional emergency management directors around the state just offering information about corona virus and how they're going to do with it and in particular the pointed to this one toll free hotline that people can call. All should call if they wanted to report incidents of people not during the social distancing or like. Businesses operating like shouldn't be. Right anyways this is what I'm going to play it for you. This is what people heard when they actually cooled that number. To America Hottest talkline. Now, ladies to talk you into exciting guys free press to connect green. Now, what is that so from what I've heard and just like read right America's Glenn is. Line albeit a very hetero normative one you call and I think you get so free. That's pretty much it. So was the idea like people are stressed out around cove Ed. We're going to tell them that they're gonNA call the hotline. said. We'll just like a very sexy telephone time as the state of Mississippi just take what we know about state of Mississippi and say that's The case of my friend WHO's reporting story was like Whoa. This is weird and of course, you know reporting and connect the state of Mississippi to be like, what is this? Why did this happen? How did this happen and Meema? So the Mississippi Department of Emergency Management they go back to everybody and we're just like, hey so sorry, it was like a mistake and that for the most part was sort of the end of the story, right? Like okay. Funding on this story did they point out were able to say like oh? You know the the the phone sex hotline was like. One. Five one three three three are hotline was five, five, one, three, four like were they able to say what it should have gone to? That's actually we? Do that they just like the email was incorrect and director to inappropriate phone number and that was kind of over offering. But here's the thing like at Lisa she google America's talkline. Just, to see, her could find the company that was behind it basically. But instead of finding a company website, I just found like dozens and dozens of new stories from all over the country of other agencies businesses making the same exact mistake. So you know I found an article about how after hurricane, Irma Bima put out a flyer for people that were looking for help after the hurricane and when they call the number led to America's hottest talkline. When this happened, is it always the same phone number or is it different phone numbers? So it's always different phone numbers as far as I can tell, I haven't seen an instance where ever the same phone number. So magazine is line has also shown up in Maine so like a couple of years ago. Be State of Maine pop of health and human, services like released like a new E bt conflict through stamps and stuff, and you know how? Like on the back of a credit card or something like that there'll be a toll free number you can call. Customer service or any questions, but stay of Mainz EVT's system. So not like a bunch of cards. Whom I, God and on the back of the card if you actually cool that number America's. Klein. Yeah. You got sent to America's thoughtless talkline. Basically, you know it's hotline everywhere. It's sort of like this. This parasite right has latched onto all of these different possible world I have no relation do like I saw headlines that said numbers for the Yankees, both police marvel like all had at one point lead to a magazine client. What the fuck is happening one of the ones I also saw that like really jumped out of me is just like Whoa that's that's not good. Is that there was a sheriff's office summer down in Florida. By, released like a hotline saying Hey Victims of domestic abuse, whole sexual assault, his the number for like a service you can call run by. Motion and incidentally led to like America's let's talk line, which is awful. You know. But the strangers of this kept growing for release like meals. One video that Liza had found from when another reporter had called with Mississippi number and in that video bills like this one little detail that jumped out to her. If you watch the video, it pleases message to America's hottest line, and then it'll automatically. Up as soon as the message is over press two now. which felt like a clue to her beneath like you would think they would weights or like repeat the menu a few times because. The murders instead of just hang up on you. Yeah I'm not. Convinced that this is a real bone sex line. wondered. If like this was just a recording and nothing more. So she decided she was gonNA cool up but number Mississippi as an out and find out for herself. I tried to call that number. and. It's led to some sort of message that said like this is a non working number in your area. That's like that's so bizarre. Yeah. I tried a couple of more times just to see like what is this bizarre glitch in the Matrix L.. But. America's what is talkline was gone like when Lisa told me this. You so many questions like whoever's doing this whoever's behind this? Right? Why was how they making America? It was two grand show movies, different phone lines like this is just a recording and not working phone sex line. It's it's hard for me to see what the point is. You would also think if there if it is it seems like. It some sort of scam. And if it is a scam, you'd think that. Targeting. States over and over again that eventually, you would end up in court. Yeah I don't know but. I told these a I try to figure it out and what I found just like. Reporting this as they Russo many times right right I felt like I was the wrong group of the story like I don't think that my Catholic Vanilla ice cream loving core in pretty major way. Wow. Okay. A. Story from here. Yeah. But I'm going to do after the break. This episode of reply all is brought to you by eighteen, eighty, five g from at and T. as fast, reliable, secure and nationwide. So should you switch? Well, historically, those were the reasons. New Tech was adopted neanderthal saw that fire heated things fast and made their cave secure from rampaging woolly mammoths. The ancient Roman saw that aqueducts were a reliable and fast way to transport water. So they stopped carrying water jugs on their backs and adopted them nationwide. And eighteen hundreds Victorian solectron light brooms fast, and be more reliable than candles blowing out. So they stopped bumping into walls and made it. Nationwide today is no different switching to at and five gene is kind of a no brainer historically speaking it's smarter than candles, water pots, and hungry dinosaurs at and T. Five G. is now complicated. Five G. requires compatible plan five teammate Peter Area. See at and T. DOT com slash five G. for you for details. This, episode of reply all is brought to you by squarespace grading website used to be really hard. You had to know how to Code and have the talent to design it yourself. But squarespace changed all that with an all in one platform that makes building websites a breeze. It got US thinking about other tasks that seem like they should easier. Now when I watched the debate cover and I take the comforter out, then I have to put the comforter back in and that is really where the trope weekends that's Mary Johnson, a project manager at Gimblett because. It's almost square, but it's not quite square and so I make a guess what and goes in what corner and that is inevitably incorrect, and it really is wrestling that comforter into the day we're talking clumps of feathers with square ceases award-winning winning templates you can customize and preview your new sight effortlessly. So you'll feel accomplished as when you finish making your bed. When you're ready to launch had to squarespace dot com slash reply all for a free trial and use the offer code. Reply all to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Welcome back to the show. So first thing I did after it leaves the told me about because blind was Cova under the state of Mississippi out. It wasn't dead animal. Thank you for calling are you or someone in your household fifty years older press one for? Yes. Two for now this wasn't a magazine Gland. The number of Mississippi government had given out was now something completely different they must've just press press. Thank you for calling the medical alert center. This is Jessica on a recorded line. Can you hear me Okay Yeah Hi Jessica I just wanted to say so my name's manage. So with our promotion today, you actually have the opportunity to receive a free medical alert device. So Hang. On saw. That little. Pressing. Just WanNa. Say. You're participating mongering. Actually Absolutely free. I'd reach this other this cooled medical at. which Weigel was basically just a knockoff of life you know the help by full an iconic it up company. which maybe even more confused than I was before. Like Howard Cova hotline taken over by a phone sex line only to be taken over again by with north of medical device company. So I tried another phone number from one of the other instances where America kind of paired and I go to another recorded message. Thank you for calling the fame center. This is Tania on a recorded line you. Okay. This recording was from a company will protect my call which signing Berry Simla recorded message from medical. So the next number I've tried I decided to just wait on the line see if they give me up into talk to a real person. Pre. Thank you for holding up emotion today you have been selected to receive a free medical alerts. Hi Hi hi, I'm sorry. Can you hear me if I can hear you I'm calling because I was trying to reach another service America's hottest talkline for was by this number but I guess it's not alright right downtime the phone number changes the wrong button get. But in the meantime you had the opportunity to receive a free medical lead system you've. Reached a real person but this guy was on a major always because in kick now I asked him he would just tried to sell me stuff. So I just called the numbers over and over and over again trying to get information. Thank you for that promotion today, you have been let it to receive a free medical alert system. So congratulations thank you. Oh Hi sorry. So Interrupt. My Name's Emmanuel jokey and I'm a reporter I'm I'm calling because I'm actually working on a story. And I was trying to get. In touch with like America's hottest talkline are you guys owned by the same? Call back because you know sometimes. You changed the wrong button gets pressed. Yeah. But that's the thing I. Know I didn't press the wrong number though so that Mr. Joji sorry. That's okay I know. Joe? Chee. But it's okay to see. A mentally I got another customer service Rep who gave me information that seemed actually helpful. told me that there was a directory I could call should be able to find America's is talkline. Trophy listing would you like? America's hottest. Talk Line. I. Think you said plan if that's not correct press nine, please were to request. America's hottest talkline. I think you said American concrete. Otherwise I'll check I tried to call him his lines for several days didn't get anywhere I couldn't track down because Glenn but then and got my first real breakthrough. When my colleague Don O. suggested, I talked to a guy at interviewed once named Bruno Tabby whose job is helping companies get one eight, hundred numbers. High Brunner, can you hear me? I can't. So I called him and told him about America's talkline. Have you ever heard of like this thing this phenomenon America's talkline Oh you have Bruno hadn't specifically out of inexhaustible blind, but he fully sounded a lot like the work of the company knew it probably goes by a lot of different names but this is a company that owns a lot of very well known phone numbers. Bruno said, the company mostly worked in toll free numbers that this company also seems to be somehow connected to phone sex. Company now seem to be dabbling in other businesses well. All. Without actually mentioning the name of this company finally I, just Austin what's the name of the company? That doesn't matter because it's public info but they they go by file. Trentham. Miami's initials option was at behind America's Glenn. was some five I nine operator. Some non somewhere having way too much fun. We found tech. But Bruno was. Not Thinking about this over on it, the COPA is prime. Tell Mrs No joke like Does not. Mess around. I would soon come to think of prime tale as a fortress. A fortress that I needed to get inside of to understand how America's host Glenn had taken over. So many phone numbers. And I would spend the next full months talking to people who cowed in shadow if people who studied. People who got it and the people who built it. But to start off, here's what Bruno told me about toe. Both Bruno and prime till I remember toll free number industry. I've always known as at one eight, hundred business. One eight hundred numbers especially, numbers like eight hundred lawyer numbers that spell things are incredibly valuable for any business to have. And so they pay companies like Bruno's business to go to incredible together a full them any numbers that are really valuable. They're not just like low hanging fruit where you just get like we've bought Assis- just because we wanted the phone number. Wow. And yet somehow in his industry where one eight hundred numbers also haunt again. Bruno. told me that prime at a crazy number of them they're behemoth. It owns I believe the numbers about twenty five percent of eight hundred numbers Oh my God. How much his dad like how what are we talking? Nolan's means a phone numbers. That fact that prime token trolls, millions of toll free numbers mansell like could learn from. Bruno. So I started to go other people toll-free industry and they told me prime tail is a really secretive company. The nickname they have is the black hole because it's like we're things went to disappear like you don't know what's in the black hole it's like this. Mystery. And I think that's just the way they operate encounters, his Quebec Cole, who ran and breath I met two of the programmers one time at a conference and they're tight lipped as the whole company is wow. You don't get their names you don't get any information you're not gonNA find somebody inside that wants to tell you about it. All the same guy would go on to combat primed L. without irony to kyw's ASSOCI-. And balloon information that people did know that was super hesitant to tell me like Eichel is one Guy Greg Fernandez who went on and on about how much you respect the person who ran prime until his love. Just just. Take your offer copy just. To see how she takes take. Wow. Oh the person behind. Behind the conglomerates Oh who is that who we see it sounds like. Yeah. It is a she. And I don't want. I, don't know I. Don't know Manulife I'm. I don't know if I want to. Out Her I say very kind things about it. It's everything I said about them is true. They're they're very powerful. Very Very. Like. I don't know I want I don't WanNa make you. Putting Your Business at risk by asking you to go on the record about this is like back kind of power thing I don't. Gosh Yeah I wanNA rock the vote. who was this mystery genius woman and if she was behind to Glenn taking over all of toll free numbers, how exactly was she had company doing it? I am having visions of some nondescript office building somewhere like Bob and Brian is field of employees at DC. Happy hours whose answer to what do you do is debate these working salting even though you know and they know there was a lot more job and they have a lot of power of your life. I searched online for any scrubbing information about prime they have no website no facebook page. There was one win herring a company based in Cyprus. Cool. Prime till it was not then. But then digging some legal documents. I realized that my prime till seemed to have a whole network of Asia's important and companies all with very generic names like national, a one mayfair, all zip line and I began searching for people who worked for those companies. That's how I found a woman. I'm going to go Evelyn. Hello Hello Hi where am I talking to you I am in Beautiful Philadelphia East falls neighborhood and this is my offense nice when the magic does not happen ever like Bruno Evelyn told me she'd never heard of America is talkline specifically but it sounded like the kind of stuff it's time till my run and everyone knows this because she's worked for national a one and prime till in range of capacities for moving twenty five years in fact, he says she helped create it. Although when she joined, she had no idea what she was getting into. Beer was nineteen ninety-two everyone was living in Philadelphia. and She just graduated college. I'm working as a librarian making bank obviously. So I'm looking for should to do and I see this ad in the paper in the city paper and it says. Page it was really Kinda. Any you remember but so it said we're needing. Romantic fantasies romantic fantasies. Fantasies just add asking for romantic fantasies people who'd post would be add needed at least ten fantasies. I'm offering to pay ten bucks for each one which the Evelyn but like easy money especially since her grand plan was to plagiarize from a book, of Nine, hundred seventy s romance. Fantasies. But by the time, Evelyn got around to cooling the number in the address fantasies. They were no longer looking for people to write them. They're looking for people to read them which to Evelyn even easier money. So Evans get to go in and read IT companies offices only when she went into her edition July's it wasn't typical workplace. So describe to me like the day you walked in like when it looked like and stuff on my gosh. So you pretty much walk in and they have to buzz you in because it's like. Killer thick glass. This place was like a little door. The window that you see from the street is just cluttered with watches and. Jewelry. Joe's you went into a porn shop. Yes. Were you surprised when you walked up and you're like oh? This is just like a watch shop I was fascinated and and it was it was just a here's the funniest part is that there's an Old Man like super. Oh. Man on a elevated stool I slumped over like drooling into his chest essentially a sweet doorbell like like. in mushroom of a man, just sort of collapsed on himself and I walked in I thought maybe he was the guy I supposed to talk do because I'm an idiot he's the first one. I just of walked up staring at him and then someone's like y'all in there talking to me behind me and I'm where who am I talking to? It's when I turn around the next thing I know I'm walking down this this dingy stare and I'm in this weird offers like very low ceilings and there's pinups and teddybears everywhere, and she she just like the new a basement. Upson. Teddy. Bears. It was here. NBA Diamond District of Philadelphia, in the strangely decorated basement of a porn shop called the national what's exchange and is porn spelled P. A.. W. N.. But an empire would eventually be born. The ONA of national, which exchange was a man named Richard Cohen. Years later become the Cohen of prime tail but back when she met him evidence that Richard, just a guy who can for the next big way to make money. He said Richard looked like George Fara good which according to my favorite editor and resident expert on white guys from the seventies Tim Howard means which it looks like the dude who sang bad to the bone. Wings like seventies kind of hairy. Okay. Is there I've always thought that's thing I always think of him there his is they're very a lot of people who immediately like Oh that guy's creepy what about his is seen creepy have you ever been into Jill Jewelry store allegation pawn shop, and the guy behind the counter and is like hey. Yes. Richard. Richard says. Evelyn. Would constantly on the hunt for things of that, you use a collector. and. Those Teddy bears that line the basement. Those were crowns collection there. Banking is children. He loves his bears Mike I'm these all just like Teddy Biz their site what is a staife there? It's the Rolex of teddybears my friend. Of his people pay. It's ridiculous. They've been making bears in Germany for like a over one hundred years. Do you have names for them. Yes and lives in every I didn't realize this at the time I've learned sense. But yes, it's real. It's hard core like he loves his bears he loves. In addition to loving his Baz Evan Grad Richard as a bit of a recluse, you'll never get to talk you. She told me. She was right which had didn't respond to my letters calls or emails. He didn't talk to me the story. No one officially representing prime tilted it either. anyways according to Evelyn, back in the early ninety s Richard was family and his poem shop business running it with his brother. When he realize veils another way, he could make money off of customers. He frequented the store, the problems with being a person who didn't have a whole lot of money back in the day is that you couldn't get a phone because phone companies needed you have an address needed you to have a bank account and all sorts of other stuff. Everyone says, Richardson these folks needed phone lines and came up with an idea. He bought a voicemail system and had it installed in his basement? And how it works is that which rent phone numbers out to his clients only? Couldn't make Kohl's on those lines. Instead, people would call them at number and leave a message. So if you a lot of people who are Kinda, shady, you're a lot of people that this is what they did is that they had a you know a block of different numbers in Oh, that's the number where am a insurance adjuster and that's number where I deal out of, and so they they had a system like that in with. Cheap it was ten bucks a for a mailbox. People would just come in with their dollars whenever we have found a back door into the phone industry more and more people were paying Richard. So they could receive voicemail messages. was around this moment figures we might have had another one of his. There's a way to make more money moments. This is just me, but I think he he's Nosey as all get out so I would imagine by listening to the messages. And realize that a lot of people are meeting and that probably game the idea is like, oh, this is kinda computer dating. so He'd bastardized voicemail system and tinkered with it and got it to work as a personal system. Russ comes. It is it really is once we should created his personal service he evan to a new voice of his federating phone system. It would be heard job to recall over prompts menus, riches, different phone services, which are constantly changing I'm curious. Alphabet. Like what did you used to say on these messages? Oh well, it would be something they. Get my voice. So it's pretty much lake. To Talk to me is cute talkers program you'll be set in our chat line while waiting for college, make a direct connection with you. Basel's you. Don't encourage me Richard took his personal system and created a service called. PHILADELPHIA'S NUMBER ONE dateline. People would pay to leave each other voicemail messages. I talked to a woman who helped moderate is dateline. She told me but it was popular with people looking for partners like minded fetishes and fantasies. I wondered if maybe this was a really inclination of what would become America's hottest talkline except without the phone sex. Evelyn told ME RICHARD EXPANDED dateline beyond Philadelphia when regional and then went national via nine hundred numbers, which is way a lot of adult content was back in the nineties using nine hundred numbers though was becoming a bigger and bigger problem parents were freaking out because they didn't want little Johnny cooling up with datelines, fetish lines, phone sevices. Let's send one single clear message. To the industry to the parents of America and the people of America. So lawmakers started introducing bills we do not want we will not allow. We will not tolerate dial a porn in this country bills designed to crack down on nine hundred numbers. It felt like the end for nine hundred numbers was Ni- and it was clear Richard needed to find another way to make money. So he goes to business partner would help them do just fat. Matt partner was a woman named Sandra Kessler. She was the so-called genius I heard rumors about from industry insiders algae such an interesting character only God she's a she's a demon. She could get whatever she wants. Everyone told me Sandra had big hair like friend Russia and talked in a sort of frenetic kind of way that might give president anxiety attack. And if which is Great Love was Teddybears, Evans said, Sandra's was somehow even more unexpected. She's a robot collector. That's how she started a Robo collector bought collector. She would go to flea markets and things like that, and she would just know what to pick. That would be worthwhile and she made Lake Gobs of money just knowing what to grab Richard Trusted Sandra Business Savvy unconditionally, and Sandra confront, which is nine hundred number woes had an idea. Sandra wanted to start a new company and it was actually a type of company. Matt only just been invented quarter responsible organization or rest bog, which goes is the most generic boring name anyways. These west bulbs they were a special kind of phone company that managed and distributed toll free numbers. Is He a few years earlier? The SEC had taught a small group people with overhauling the entire toll-free system. It took years to get every detail, right? I was fortunate enough to the in that whole design and one of the things we designed what became Russ Borg's. Wow. So you want to feel like designers of this current system basically. Yes. Wow. Okay. There were about ten of US around the country that designed the whole system. Okay. So I have so many questions for you. Robin. Christoffersen toll-free industry legend. So I'm curious to in this system that you designed like if I came to nine, hundred, ninety, three, ninety, four almost like okay. I would like to get hooked up with a toll free number what would pathway have been? It's the same today. Okay. You contact your rest Borg and say I want eight, hundred lawyer. Number like that. The rest bore. Determines whether it's available if its spare, which is what they call available than the rest bork reserves the number right then yeah and then nobody else can have the number. So let's say onto no attack career wants one, eight, hundred Burrito we have to go to one of these books maybe a big phone company like we're is maybe a smaller outfit. And if a numbers available arrest Bogle, get it for them from a big pool of available numbers. Over career have to do is keep paying them free phone bill to arrest bog. To. Be in the phone business in the mid nineties or to be in a bona fide one, eight, hundred number feeding frenzy. Everybody wanted a number spelled something and West boggs only happy to oblige. Each eight hundred number was incredibly cheap for them to grab but businesses were so desperate they pay good money just to get them. So rest boggs popping up left and right and even Leah and her colleagues had tried to every detail of how rebels would work. There was one major floor in bed design we thought. The only people who were going to be rest borders would be the big long distance and local companies. So at most we'd maybe have thirty rest sports. Well, you know there's over three hundred sports. Wow, over three hundred. And that was never. The way we visualized. I. Don't know on the one hand. You guys were so meticulous in designing the system, but the thing you didn't account for him. So shocking to me about like people would find a way to make money off of this. We didn't really designed to that. We talked about it kind of on the fringes and somebody says, I, don't know what kind of money grubbing little company would become an independent sport tons out a money grubbing company headed by a robot collector and a teddy bear love. Back, in the diamond district, Philadelphia Sandra and Richard decided okay. We want in on this, we're going to make our own risk. Grab some of you eight hundred numbers and use them all. Chat lines, and then we'll have people pay by credit card to use them. We'll make a killing. Richard realized that all those numbers are worth something if it spells anything dirty that if you look at the traffic at the time, there are men that just sat around spelling out dirty words on their phone wondering if it was gonna be somebody saying something dirty. Bat wrestled with owned company. They created was crime till. Till. was run by Sandra and as she got more and more numbers for riches datelines, we realize he could be making even more money. And a few years later in two thousand, he expanded his business into phone sex. Opened a new call center and movies entire business to a whole new building. Weird move at the time because the few surviving phones companies actually downsizing asking phone sex workers to work remotely. But Richard Gamble paid off all over the country. People were typing in dirty words, phone landing on one of which is phone sex lines and fogging credit card information with a chance to talk to quote sexy young girls, which is funny because of the new operators sitting on the upper end of the line were the most unsexy place imaginable. What into space? What did the office look like I'm discerning surgery to know like what was the setup? Is Very. Much like a call center walking in where there's like a scrolling led sign of like the top bonuses of the month there seasonal decorations up at two in July and so. They're like palm trees of Lay's and like the wall. You know it's like in furnishing held to make it look like it's not as hot place bouncer woman. I'm going to go film she went for Richard in his phone sex calls for year and a half, and she said she found the job challenging from the very beginning. So difficult to keep a corny man who is masturbating the phone for three dollars a minute so that you can get your minute quota in Oh was that the main aim of it was just like keep these guys on the phone. Keep them on the phone calls would Mac Salvat certainly depending on what they paid for and whether they were preferred customer not. Bite your calls could Max out fifteen minutes, thirty five minutes or forty, five minutes forty, five minutes. Wow film is trick to slow these guys down and keep them on the phone was the Taylor Law of jokes men seem to find it hard to stay turned on and laugh something at the same time. But maybe if it was part about the job, well, something I'd never even considered. When customers reach phones line, they could choose race of a woman they wanted to talk to and so phones operators pretending to be women of different races may actually got a list of stereotypical characters they could play for each one but if a customer requests if Mississippi but defoe was a white woman, my initial name that they gave me was I was angel and then they change his Vanna and. Savannah was five three hundred twenty pounds wand. Just serotype that even other white women are like seriously. Had from National Lampoon cheerleader tight movie. Type of thing. Yeah. This is Danielle. Another one of riches funds accelerators, Danielle's self-described. Big Back Woman in back most of the people working in Senate were black women and having to play Savannah really bothered. Danielle. Especially, at that point in my life I was so. I had to do like a lot of a therapy and things like that because I'm being an African. American woman you already bombarded with. You're not pretty enough. You're not good enough. You're less than everybody else like. That gradients yelled starts Ella White Women in Asian and Hispanic, and then black is at the end. You get what I'm saying yeah I, get what you're saying. So Oh, you know it was really bad for myself with females like I can't. So Danielle broke rules just a little made a default character a Greek white woman. Her manages tolerated it but only because Daniel was arguably the best phone sex operator they had she says she was so good that people from around the company used to ease up a calls if all she had to be doing something shady to be that good job. In that it was pretty create Dagnon film that Richard and the rest of management didn't really trust the phone operators as a rule they were purposely kept away from the rest of the company. Says the manager who ran the center with extremely intense about it. We're encouraged not to talk to anyone in elevators not to like interact or other people. Through redid lights. I wouldn't even say second class citizens. It was like we were like rats in the building that other people had to tolerate Oh my God. We weren't supposed to know anything. We weren't supposed to know about open enrollment on the health. Insurance. Changed. Oh. Very, very isolating to work theralac they did not want to have knowledge about anything else that went on in that building, which is why when I was filming Danielle with the calls, you would take him for America, it was talkline Maryland really. We don't know all we did was pick up the phone. The company had a lot of different phone sex lines, but we didn't really have any idea which service for colours were coming to us through. which man? It's totally possible that Oma and Donyo could have answered cools for America's what was to Glen and never even known. But Danielle told me something else that felt like a clue. Every now, and then she would get a call from someone who didn't know very infra some phone sex. Some people oh. God. Bless them you everyone you get like an elderly person. On how did you? How did you get this number grandma? Looking for both of us now, where people like honestly, very confused Yeah Yeah An opting embarrassed. You know especially, if you got to tell them what number they call. Like, no, this is phone sex line ma'am. Sir. I. Can't help you with your working your dryer I don't I don't know maybe I don't know what Model D how. According to office the woman who'd help create the toll free system confuse people ending up on the phone line was a direct result of a move Richard and Sandra made to take their business beyond grabbing sexy numbers and move into the next stage of toll-free empire. They were the first place where I heard about Miss Styles, which is now a big industry missiles missiles. She told me that when like a shoe company announced then new toll free number one, eight, hundred, slipper. Prime till will be watching from cal knows. Thousands of thousands of people are going to call that number. So they get the number may be right below it. You know the get one that's. Really Easily Miss Style. And they probably get the numbers. All of them that are around a number. You know anything that can cause somebody to easily miss style. In the past prime till has denied that they have a strategy. But multiple experts in the industry told me otherwise we'll be the experts told me is that back then most West Borg's assumed out of the millions of toll free numbers out there only a small percentage but ones that spelled things we're truly valuable. Well. They were a dime a dozen. It's almost as if Sandra and Richard realize oh no, those ordinary looking unremarkable numbers are actually super valuable because of missiles. Now, of course, maybe only one of the thousand people call your number accident will stay on the line. But if you had say millions of phone numbers, you'll looking asmal fortune. What I know for sure is that Sandra dedicated a whole floor of riches building Trento and filled it with computers. A. Woman who used to work as an assistant to Richard who I'm going to go Chevy. She hated going down there. What did they look like? Vassal. Oh. My God it was. Computer? I don't know tech at the time, but I probably would be liable. So fucking cold down near some big computer servers probably down there it was like the ultimate we're like. Purposely terrible mork creepy, it was. gave his overall on the inside of a trolls. Digging in mind as. Creepy as until set up was. Technology. gave him a real advantage of the competition. While otherwise balls had employees dutifully requesting numbers one at a time primetime had computer programs grabbing numbers in bulk. And these phone numbers grabbing they weren't only brand new phone numbers that never existed before they were also phone lines people for it was still as they lost because they've forgotten to pay their phone bill at some point. And then though these people realized, they'd lost their phone lines and were very confused. And Evelyn Sherry both employs of national one hand a weird experience of seeing the phenomenon happening in the world in front of him overtime doing exactly why so many people were pissed off. A pulmonary director that ten call to complain. Why is my private office number of fucking for number American idol, all the numbers for their finalists eight hundred. So when people were trying to vote eighty. For their idol, they were coming to me I, DOT calls from people who have numbers and other countries and other places go to the bear thing. I was married at the time to a podiatrist in Augusta Georgia. And their main office number got swiped. So people were calling the doctor's office and will go thanks willing. So they'd have he has number one, eight nine. Your own husbands. Number gets. And when people calling him. Bay hearing you. They know as me thank God. All of this of course time exactly like what was happening of America's is talkline. Tons of people very confused as to how a phone sex line had taken ben number. And I think it sounds exactly like what was happening of America's tool Klein because it is what's been happening of America's Glenn. I am now confident that win needs to be put up Kobe line. One of two things could have happened both totally legal. Some Pool. So I'M GONNA make up in the health and human. Services. Office. I'm going to go them. Zach might have misprinted of a number by one digit when they were bet email. I'm prime till because they have so many millions of toll free numbers Ray just happened to control the number. The Armand's Zach inadvertently emailed to tons of important people. Or? Zach. Bless him. Actually didn't make a TYPO. He published a correct phone number, but he did so without realizing that I'm of earlier. In. Accounting hadn't paid the bill for it. In the meantime, Trimbe Toe, ever seeking new numbers to make a strategy work, snapped it up without anybody realizing it. I know primed did at least one of those things because with the help of my new rest bulk friends, I was able to set database of toll free numbers find out which controls the number Mississippi's out and low behold about risk bog. One of prime tells Paul companies and is registered the Richard Cohen and Sandra. Kessler. Crime Tale was the reason that number and so many of lead to America's hall is Talkline. Thing that did it make sense? It's twenty twenty phone sex is not what Villeurbanne is young people of America turning to. Thelma told me but nationally one, which is company was hit really hard by free Internet porn. And in two thousand, fifteen she and tons of people laid off it was really hard. Do you know how Richard fell about the layoffs or like upper management general. They really did not like to take people's jobs Why? I don't know performing. Wanted to get rid of people until it came down to like. We're just not making the money that we used to make we can't sustain more people. That has been beneficial, but you know that was the thing we weren't competing against competitors who did had similar products we were competing against free. From what I can tell this glut of free online insights meant prime till yet again had to find a new way to make money with their millions of phone numbers. Would you explain the difference services I've found when I tried to reach America's talkline. Thank you for calling the medical alert center does calling the auto saving center. This is I think prime tells alleged Ms Dos strategy is still going on. The crucial difference is that now may renting out phone numbers to businesses like medical and protect my car. So why is it that every once in awhile? Dinosaur of sign like America's is climb posts up. Above me. But after months of reporting I didn't know I'd still never actually even found it. We'll talk to anyone who tell me definitively that they'd heard of it. America is talkline seem to appear and just as quickly banish like some kind of ghost. Because, come to finding it was the one recording Lisa reporter who told me about the service had shown me. According, by contained a clue that had really puzzled both of us. Ladies Waiting Tattoo you press one now ladies press two now. The fact that America's client didn't seem to actually go to a phone sex line Serb is hung up on, you opt paying a short recording I came up with a theory about that. According to an industry insider. If you're arrested like tell, you can't just grab numbers and holds them a service needs to be on each and every toll free number you have oils eventually you lose it. So I thought, it would make sense that if prime wanted to cover their bases and make it look like they were really using numbers, they didn't have services on yet. Have to put something. In place, hold on the line, and in this case, Baid used recording. But, my producer Anna thank God verana. She wouldn't rest until renew for sure that America was grand was fake. So she came up with a brilliant idea to find an antiquated possibly faked business we needed to use antiquated methods. Hope I am has many toll free numbers as we could included the numbers seven, three nine of wise known as s e X. Welcome to America's hottest talkline guys how ladies are waiting to talk to you press one now, ladies to talk to you interesting and exciting guys free press to connect free now. Also of his time, I finally found America's Hall Talkline Talkline and the first thing I noticed was that it wasn't just a recording. I I one to talk to whole ladies, and it immediately prompted me to record a message describing myself Greens record your message, hit any key when you're done. Hi there. My Name's Emmanuel. Joji I said I was a reporter. And I was recording and that I was hoping to interview someone story about America's holders talkline talk to them about their experience pretty quickly. I had short descriptive recordings of women I could choose the talk to. A woman from Michigan described herself as a youth ago, which apparently means she's a lifelong resident of the upper peninsula. Another woman who was looking for a sexy white dude look like Bret michaels. Don't on me. Maybe these women one phone sex operators. These women looking for white guys, we've questionable music taste. And then Someone message me this catfish send with priority delivery. ex-employer you. Fraud. To live with this caller press one, time the message or please record your invitation for this caller to join you him private conversation record after the tone hit any key when you're done. Hi Yes. Oh I'm actually from England but a lot of people I feel like I have trouble knowing accents from because I've listened a lot of places as born in England moved to Belgium as a kid spent time in Ohio Yeah. anyways looking forward to chatting with you. Please, hold while that caller listens to your connection request. They liked what they heard and they're ready to connect with you. Your connected they. Hi. Hi there, how are you? I'm how are you I'm doing well, I'm doing well. Would it be okay if I record it our conversation for broadcast on my show. Okay. Okay. Cool. Also I love your accent Oh. Thank you so much where are you from? Tennessee. Oh Tennessee. Wearing Tennessee are you from? China Ooh you're right on July. Wow. I actually I actually drove through Chattanooga. On, in the summer is really beautiful town. And is. Hammond I'm an Indiana Bell. Quite why did that. Stupid. You got stupid. Thank God. This is Jean. She's seventy seven. She told me about America to grind for one of our friends at she very clearly is not offense operator. Can you just tell me about this this like what is this line about like is it? Is it like a dateline? So kinda you. Can you talk some nasty without some stay now? Yeah. There all the time you know if it's true what they say about redhead. Sent me a message and one of the carpet match drives I went back to him said no carpets. Did. He was burned. Even say a word years married man on here. There are some guys looking? Save Mail to be with him and his wife. I thought you're crazy but you for that. Know. What what are you here for? What are you looking for? Let's say I found a friend to talk to. My then have a filthy mouth gene is not who I expected to find on America's talkline. Housing hub suffered a stroke last year and lost sight as a result. and. Around that time, she started calling up a hotline and became a regular. I don't know sometimes I'll get on every day. Just listen. Don't talk just listen. is on there. A lot of visitors who come see you. Know, we're not allowed to have this. There's right now. Because of COVID. Yeah like stick in a room and you can't go anywhere. So you guys Connie even socialize amongst each other in the nursing home right now. Well, they have finally started letting us go down for either breakfast lunch or Dander. Yeah. But We have to sit far apart from table that I can't say who they are. And you really get to meet them when you're on the table there sixty way at the other end. Aside. Tar I tell people that are just fezzet Bob's I'm sorry L. May need. I've got got. To gene reminded me of my granny. She's an eighties ms alone in England. Actually has one of US medical devices refuses to wear it. Though is a major problem because she falls from time to time. I spoke to heavy every day and I I, didn't get through because she was on another call. Joys seems to be on another call talking to some friend or family member. I, think it's what's made these loss amounts of being unable to leave a house. Bearable. Talking to people. And channing gene I realized she didn't have a lot of that at the moment. I've been sort of Hof right about America's all its talkline. It wasn't a phone sex line or even a dead end recording. Maybe. It was a placeholder and is their overhead unstaffed coal back to Richard's innovation. Primary only bought out and they needed to go online. But it was performing a service. And get people like Jean Company. It was a tonic for lonely. The. Well I hope I have like like provided like some form of of entertainment to break up the monotony today. Say I. Still. Love Your Voice Thank you. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. Jane. Eyre to okay. You have a good day. We'll do same of you. Bye Bye. Bye. Reply All is by PJ Alex Goldman and starting today me. Joji. I'll show it was produced week by Panama Meinie Bannon Damiano, Marchetti, and a Foley Jessica, young, and Lisa Wang. Intern is a mckean mcgauchie our executive producer Tim Howard remixed by Kwon theme song and original music by. The back checking by Michelle Harris additional music production by Meyer Romano, and original music by Luke Williams. Special thanks today to able Joe Bernstein, or fouls, James Brown. Mike. Connors Muratovic Liam Assisi's Matt leader is snuggling up towards an episode of girlfriends after a very long week. Also, we are currently looking for spring and some twenty twenty. One intern's the application is open now. So good old website reply all show dot COM to apply don't wait applications are you in just a couple of days on October Fifth You can listen to show on spotify wherever you get your podcast. Thankfully bugs we'll see you in two weeks. Calm. So what happens on his podcast? The podcast is going to answer the following question. What do we need to do to address the climate crisis and how do we make those things happen? We're going to be answering that question on this podcast every week from now until until jobs done. It's done I'm chas. pre-nup. From Gimblett, how to save a planet out now with me, Alex Bloomberg and me Dr Ion Elizabeth Johnson listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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Episode 362: Andrew Marantz

Longform Podcast

1:04:33 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 362: Andrew Marantz

"Hey before we get going. I WanNa tell you about a new podcast from stitcher called lost at the Smithsonian so they take us if Monte who who is one of my favorite daily show correspondents of all time and paramount with curator's and celebrities guests and they look into some of the most iconic nick artifacts from the National Museum of American history. We're talking about stuff like funsies leather jacket and Dorothy is ruby slippers they trace how all these special objects came to define our culture. It's available now. You can listen and subscribe to lost at the Smithsonian right now on stitcher or apple podcasts gas or wherever you're listening to this podcast subscribe today thanks to them for sponsoring the show. Here's the show hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm your Co Host Evan ratliff and joining me today Max Lansky and Aaron Lamour. You guys guys high another week. Long podcast and other week co hosts together having fun at three hundred and sixty two at some point. These numbers are getting getting arbitrarily right like a three hundred sixty two. It's four hundred eleven. It's two eighty nine. No one's really keeping track I'd like to I'd like this to be known as the Thirty Sixth Season Guest Hey Evan. Who'd you have on the show this weekend this week I had Andrew Marantz? Andrew Marantz is a staff writer at the New Yorker Worker magazine. He also has a book. That's coming out. It's called antisocial. Subtitle is online extremist techno utopianism and the hijacking of the American Conversation Conversation he has written a lot about the alt-right about online trolling about things going viral on the Internet and all of the darkness us that can ensue from that and also as you guys know every couple of years. I like to have my someone from my family on the PODCAST. He is my a cousin by marriage is as he's been to a lot of dark places like your family thinks I happened. listeners may not know that I happen to have married into a family full of writers this will not be the last that will come on castle. I'll say that by my mother-in-law Robin rants handing has been on and this is her nephew entrance dynasty if you've got a writing family you're going to need a newsletter. Keep all that stuff ready a family writing newsletter no no better place to do that then with mail chimp they make it very easy and I'll say this about a male Tim newsletter g Jima really knows how to handle a male chimp newsletter puts it nicely and it's in your tabs it is that's the kind of thing you want nice designed nine customizable. They got it all at Malcolm. Thanks to Malcolm now. Here's Evan with Andrew Marines. How's your family? They're great a couple of weeks. I know I know it's been in. It's been yeah I'm not even like doing the book tour thing yet but already feel like pre book tour you going out like doing some on the road. I'm doing San Francisco Oh. La Chicago DC so like you know a few things it's pretty good. That's a stadium tour yet but I you know like there's a thing where are there is the version of this that would be the pre having kids version having kid in my case version where I would like drive across the country and like do that Hashtag Van van life and like go out and you know see everyone I know in every town and now I'm just like. Could I take her at home. Yeah minimal amount I can do yeah. It's a good problem to have because I just legit WanNa get home but it's also there. I remember being an editorial assistant. Sitting this is like getting getting ahead of ourselves but I remember sitting in an inner ring of desks where like the help sits at the New Yorker and like the important people sit in outer ring and I it wasn't quite open plan office the way it is now but it was when you're in one of the editorial assistant seats you hear a lot of stuff so I would hear people who were a few years. My senior being offered crazy like things that I was like I would kill for that. You know like people who were like stories or stories stories like people. Who would you know I'm trying or anything of where I sat me? I was sitting near then McGrath roffe catch Dorian Keleaf Asana Ari Levy like the staff writers who is most admired who I was like fan blowing out about Jews even seeing them being offered like would you go to Antarctica and like find a tunnel that leads to a volcano oh and like we can get you on the helicopter if you go into days and they'd be like Oh man I dunno I gotTa Pick my kid up at preschool and I'd be like are you insane. Give it to me. I will do anything ah like I and they would be like it's not that safe. I don't care and now I'm like so I should say in a more Fiscal Policy Andrew Marantz rance welcome to the Longford puck and thank you for having me. It's actually it's it's tricky. It's tricky. There were family because it's kind of like I have resisted having you on the podcasts because that seems like do not participate Ya but also wanted to have you on the podcast because you happen to have written written many things you should see the fucking dog years. I have in the book this is this is the things I was Gonna ask you about that would be like an eighteen our podcast. Ah but I feel like the book gave like a very good solid reason to finally have you on the podcast also the titles antisocial and I feel alike the subtitle could be some version of like how did a Nice Jewish kid from the suburbs and of hanging out with trolls and Neo Nazis for several years and that is what I would like to explore so we know that you your family now now but let's go back closer to the beginning because the book does it actually actually does delve a little bit into your own background and you describe yourself as a bit of a continuing child yeah so I thought a lot about how I could. If there was any way I could relate to these people so like these people being people in the alright trolls yet the alt-right slash lights eight slash world of trolley so we can get into how I ended up immersing myself with these people it was not it was not for the sake of like Whoa oh these people are bad dudes and I'm really fascinated by in a kind of ethnographic way just like how they roll like that ended up being an interest but the original interest was more about about the Internet and how the Internet was tearing apart our society and kind of looking for a good case study of how that would work. I didn't just want to write an argument about theoretically what is the Internet and what could it do. I wanted to write a reported chronicle of what the Internet was doing in real time from the vantage point of the people who were using the Internet to fuck shit up a single and there are so many different ways it could have gone it could have been I mean there's a whole part of the book that goes pre two thousand fifteen two thousand sixteen pre the idea of trumpism as a political force. Just you know more with the click bait world of things in how the Internet was allowing our statistics and our economy and our culture of information sharing to be messed up and then it kind of transitions into to how it's doing that in politics and everything else but the part about you you as a younger person yeah and kind of glance at it. It's like not quite like I could have been one of these ample no but it's a little bit like I'm scared of what the world would have been for like a contrarian like anti-establishment teenager in the suburbs yeah exactly who encounters I want you encounter today on the Internet so but what it had that actually pan out for you exactly so this is the way I could find some hinge of connection with these people once I actually found myself in their world obviously what they do is repulsive and in many ways deploraball to use the word that Hillary Clinton used for them but there is something relatable about them and one of the things was this contrarian impulse so I mean I remember there was actually an earlier draft where I went into this in way more detail that I almost thought about sending you but then I was like Mardi asking him to read a four hundred page book but there was you know there was a version of me where I was you know I grew up in the Connecticut suburbs. There's nothing very interesting about the Connecticut suburbs at least you know there's nothing cool about the Connecticut suburbs so you know like I went to punk shows and I liked tried to like be escaped her here for about a week and I you know like I wore like thrift store blazers and got really into rocky horror picture show and like all the kind of signifier of screw you guys I'm different. I'm not one of you because like I don't know I just instinctively felt like there's no way I can carve out an identity out of being like I'm like you you but the cool version that was never gonNA have so it's like I got to carve out something else going. The other direction got to go in the other direction and also it's like there is something about this feeling of secret secret knowledge or a secret identity that there is just an amazing poll that that kind of offers to you where you feel like I'm in this kind of self contained self reinforcing universe but then also once you get there there is a community built into it and so you get to feel like an individual contrarian while also having the backup of a social world. Did you find some version of that yeah kind of I mean I had my people who were like wherever you know the kind of Abercrombie wearing masses are going. We're going to go the other way and that van becomes its own aesthetic unto itself you know so then you know mentioning going to punk shows like then you get into the references that the dead Kennedys cities are making and that you know Operation Ivy's making and then you go okay. There's a lineage here and then when I I don't really know what changed yeah I mean it's weird in a way that I went to Brown and didn't become like a bow tie wearing libertarian or a you know like A. I don't know there's a million contrarian things that you could have been compensated yeah when you go place like that. The real contrarian thing is to be the total at yes. There's death. There's always one or two per class who were like you you hacky sack liberal dip shits like I'm GonNa do my thing and my thing is going to be you know launching Dartmouth Review if you're dementia Sousa or launching the Stanford Review if you're Peter thiel always a review exactly I for some reason that didn't have you know I still had my controlling impulses ahead my like. I had my world that I had kind of built around myself but I think doing that politically. Just wasn't that interesting to me because I don't know but I do wonder if I had had a computer in my pocket that was able to give me these really sharp seductive talking points. I was GONNA say simple but not not simple like something to hook into. I don't really know where I would have ended up so then at the time what kind of pulled you into journalism because I feel like I didn't know the exact timing of your your college years but you are there. Were a couple of articles that were pretty early out of count like it seemed like you went right for that yeah and as a dedicated kid who listeners of the podcast will know your aunt is a journalist rovner as Hennig and but your parents are not I happen to know for my deep research that they're both doctors. was there something in particular that drew into it yeah I mean so there's I definitely learned and from Aunt Robin and from other people that I knew but mostly from our that it was a thing you could do but I didn't have. I was not very goal oriented chanted as they say I was very into exploring and like looking into different ideas. I mean I was that kid who so even though I wasn't a bow tie wearing libertarian I was annoying in other ways and when I got to Brown you know they have this whole thing where they don't have a core curriculum and they say like just go explore and do whatever you want and you know don't even take classes for grades needs if you don't want to and I was the kid the one kid who was like okay. I'll do that and then they were like. Wait a minute. You're supposed to like be a little structured a little link to evaluate you in some way. I was like like okay. I'm not gonNA take any classes for grades. I'm GonNa just try things out and see I took like every course that had the word consciousness in it somewhere and just sorta figured it out and eventually I got my was like okay. I am going to have to pay rent and but I want to contribute something thing. I don't know what exactly there was. This idea that I encountered in philosophy I started in philosophy and then ended up in religious studies and there was this idea in the philosophy of religion and philosophy proper. That's called the transcendental this idea of how you break down reality into its most basic irreducible components and in the seventeenth century kind of neo platonic era that starts being thought of as the good the beautiful the true those are like the three irreducible pursuits that human can strive for that can't be reduced one to the other that can't be broken down and I couldn't decide which of those ones to pursue like I couldn't so like pure beauty would be I'm a painter enter or a poet or a ceramicist and I live in a shack somewhere and I don't even care if anyone ever sees what I do you know I'm like Emily Dickinson. Pure goodness would be you know on the frontlines of fighting battles for social justice and you know I'm just mother Theresa and truth would be maybe like an academic who's like I'm GONNA spend ten years solving for MAS last year Emerson thing and the only one I could think of the touched on all of them was Cernan. Listen specifically long form journalism which wasn't called that then but just like something where you can re describe the world to itself in a way that felt ideally good and beautiful and true that's one of the most both intellectual and optimistic descriptions of German and it was mostly. I just wanted to make serious money and I was like McKinsey journalism. It's a toss up. No I just like an obviously. Obviously you know it's funny. You say optimistic because now whenever I'm asked to speak at a class or someone emails me and says should I do this. I always start by saying no. You should not do this and then you know. Sometimes they ignore you and or they say but I have to and then it's like okay. It's you know that thing of like if it's the only thing you can imagine doing but I really do try to impress on people like it's not just like a pro forma thing that people say like Oh. It's really hard out there. I think when you're in college you Sir here that and you go like yeah but everything's hard. Everything's hard people say that law firms aren't hiring the way they used to and people it's like this. There's no reason into think that there's a market for the shit like there's no like there's nowhere in the constitution. That says we're going to have journalists. It says we have the government shutdown journalist but it doesn't say it's GonNa Fund them right so it's like you can't. I don't know I do try to impress on people. It might not be a thing for very long but to the extent that exists I am optimistic about what the form can do because I think it's not only the truth function of like muckraking heartbreaking and you know ferreting out corruption at City Hall. That's great. It's also the function of that can aspire to be art even though it is written on deadline and it has ads for booze staple next to it and it happens within these constraint Senate has to happen within like a very mundane sort of logistical world. I do think that can be art and like I people give me shit for that and I feel pretentious. Sing it but like that's the thing that motivates I want it to be beautiful in addition. I mean it's like you feel dumb saying but it's like why try to do it if you're not dream is well admit that that's what you're striving for that Zuid if you're not gonNA try to do it yeah so will will will we will return to whether or not they will continue to be viable in the face of what has happened. in the last ten years but you also but you did go to journalism school I was laughing because I looked back at some notes that I had written about questions I wanted to ask you. One of them just said Jay school worthwhile question mark If you don't have to pay too much for I mean if you don't have to go into debt for it it kind of depends like will what was the logic was your your chain of logic that he fought. I had moved to Brooklyn like everyone else. I knew I kind of just like was like where did most of my friends go Muslim. Most of them went to Brooklyn. My Friend From College Jessica Weisberg also along from Journalists Farren. Was We got over on the she's great yeah. She's the best she works in way more mediums than can ever hope to learn she had found this apartment in for green that was like they should like the real world there it was internal spiral staircase and these can built in gilded mirrors. We called it scrooge mcduck mansion because it just looked in saint and so and it was like I paid like six hundred dollars a month or whatever this is how I'm officially old once you're like the rent was six hundred dollars but then so I was like okay I can make this work I had like a bill by the our day job at the New York Times putting stuff online by like converting it to html and I didn't know how to do that but I just taught myself enough html. I I mean really really basic like and you know I remember like messing up a diff- tag in some line of I don't even know what that is but I just was like like had to go through Google. Like why did I mess this up. That was my hourly wage job and then I would you know like find the email address of someone who worked at the New York press and be like can I write a review of this off Broadway play for free and then like Hound them seven times until they responded to that email you know is that glamorous life and I started doing a couple of things that I felt pretty good about like one of them. Was that Harper's peace. There was like mother Jones piece about working at a call center. Those were both before you went to yes so I had started. Doing those and you know I've done a couple couple other things they were starting up this thing at NYU called Kevin Uncle Kevin still makes fun of the name but they called it literary Reportaysia Taj so we still I still every thanksgiving I still get like so how's your report is going but it was the first year of it and they offered me a fellowship so yeah that's the calculation you can get behind and they had ketu mental as their Ted Connor was there Lawrence Wesley was there at the time Adrian Nicole Leblanc doc was doing a thing there so I was like I'll the heaviest hitters totally in this world totally so then did you go straight from there to editorial system The New Yorker. Bi basically early and the The New Yorker job was not a writing job. It was it was an editorial job and I had never done any editing before and actually my experience of being edited had not been uniformly family good but so when you get that job I mean I feel like that job of editorial assistant. New Yorker is the job that x number of people get and kind of think I wanna the writer at the New Yorker and then arrive and realize sometime later. That's not actually the way this yeah but you did eventually so. I'm interested in that evolution. 'cause there's a weird thing about being inside where you actually can't break up higher. so what happened. Would you move into editing at some point yeah that was an I knew enough about about that even before when I was offered the job to be like I don't know. Should I take this because I knew that they didn't want someone who showed up to not do the job and just be like hey can I right. Can I reckon right. They didn't want that's not what the job is so I was like if I'm going to do this I want to do. The job and I felt like I had at the time felt like I've written all these pieces and I'm a freelance journalist and I'm making it work. I actually felt like I was making a living as a freelancer but really what it was is in the process of the job interviews talking to the Guy Daniel who's GonNa hire me and being like Oh. I WANNA be around. People like this is Daniel Yeah like you know the best story editor I've ever seen work and you know the in addition to many other people who work at the New Yorker who are on a level that I couldn't really imagine at the time like I was was still kind of in a mode of thinking that editing was looking over something quickly cutting three of your favorite jokes adding to jokes that you didn't like and like hitting published like shepherding yeah shepherding like Oh. I don't know this this line. I don't know it's like too precious and then like hitting publish and seeing the way that people like thought about pieces like before any a word of it was written more than than I thought would ever have gone into like they what I got to see. When I started was a big part of my job was going to these Tuesday ideas meetings they had these editorial meetings where it was just basically everyone pitches three ideas allowed yeah and it was kind of this rotating cast estimate was mostly editors but writers would come through fact checkers would come through people in the art department people in makeup people and copy and everybody sort of would just sit and say here's what I think would be a good piece in the magazine and sort of seeing the level of you know sometimes? It was just like this person's big deal. I think we should profile them but more often it was like I think that a profile of this could be an embedded critique of this. I think that it could be set up in a way that would make people feel at odds with themselves when they like there was just a level of kind of crafting at the level of story concept that there is just a level of conceptual framing that goes into the piece. I mean going back to this sort of claim that is may be grandiose and pretentious that like journalism can strive to be artful. That's where I really. I just got excited thinking about how that process worked and that was another part of the job was I was thinking about okay going from only thinking about stories that I should do to thinking about stories that other people she had some big. That's a big difference and I mean but it's liberating in a way because there are stories that Jane Mayer could do that. Larry Right Do David grand could do that and cannot do so like that was a very that was a it allows you to you know paint with different colors but then you who I feel like you could have gone kept going down that road I mean I've talked to Francis James Verani. He loved you as an editor like you were. I liked it you you were in position to be editing features. What made you decide that? That's not what you wanted to. I loved the idea generation and the idea conceptualization process. I mean I loved you know James just as an example came in with this amazing multi continent cinematic peace and you know we had two story story board it and take it from fifteen thousand dollars to seven or whatever and do the whole thing. I love that I love the collaboration I love the feeling of being intent places at once like while I was thinking about Somali pirates on the James Piece I was also thinking about Liberian warlords on a Damon Taber piece. I was also thinking about Las Vegas deejays on a Josh Elespe and like they all had totally different tones in different conceptual frameworks. I love that but ultimately I just like writing more. I just like like I just writing. I just it's more risky. The job is less job security. It's less structure Bjorn accountable to go the office every day the same way I think someone said one of the editors there who does editing and writing. I can't remember who's not GonNa say but I think I know but that with writing the heiser hiring the lows are lower and I think that person was using it as an argument for why editing suited their temperament more and ending for me I just I'm okay with the higher highs and the lows logistically was that was a difficult to convince them that that's what you want you would rather be doing yeah. It's I mean you know a lot of people have gone through this period where they're kind of feeling out both and then they sort of have to choose. I really wanted to keep doing both and basically what happened was the subject matter that like I could start to see how I was dipping a toe. Oh indifferent edges of the same lake and that lake was GONNA be this book and I had to actually like hold my breath and swim across and and I just couldn't imagine doing that while also doing justice to lighting other people's pieces like it's one thing to say okay. I don't know how far can stretch this lake metaphor but it's one thing to say okay. I'M GONNA jump off this dock and like do a few laps and then come back which would be like a six thousand word peace while you know keeping track of what else is going going on on the shore. It's another thing to be like. I'm just GonNa go into the depths of this 'cause I. I had a feeling that these things connected up with each other but I didn't know how exactly Ackley and like you know this like doing a book length thing you kind of have to be like. I think there's something here. I've written enough of a proposal that I can convince other people that there's something here but I haven't really convince myself and so I just was like I got to see if there's something here and was this was like there was a time in October two thousand sixteen when I thought I had been the annoying speaking of being annoying ship had contrarian I had been the guy all along being like trump's GonNa win. Bet You money I actually like one a bunch of bets tragically but then remember Oh you know I mean I pissed off a lot of people so I was like and then November was like time to drop everything in about yeah now you so then I wrote a book proposal between then and Thanksgiving and then the book proposal went out and was you know now on inauguration day it was being read by people and then I was off to the races while I was trying to figure out in in looking back at your pieces when when you get sucked into this world a bit because for a while you're doing a lot of cultural stuff you're doing profiles and then you do this piece about Silicon Valley the TV show which contains one of my all time favorite scenes of any magazine story which is the people from the show go to meet someone who's like the person that the Google lax and the guy gets he's mad about the show and then he tries to storm out these were enrolled blitz and the kicker is all the writers who were there to Research Asia. They're like researching material for the show and they all look at each other like we can't use this right because it's too over the top and no one would believe it and they're like yeah it wouldn't it wouldn't play like it's too get so yeah. I'm doing pieces like that. I'm doing pieces about like you know Comedians Leslie Jones and Leslie Jones yet but then I feel like the was it the the story yeah about the Click Bait Guy. His name is escaping me right now. I feel like that to me was a moment where it felt like. You're doing something that maybe people the New Yorker didn't even quite understand understand. Possibly I WANNA say that but there's a bit in the book about how you're trying to convince people like this is a thing and it's the thing we should pay attention to. They're not they're not not like shutting you down but they're kind of like okay man. Do do what you want but I was curious of that. Was that story where we're Kinda pulled you into that world or had it already had ah yes so there's so in two thousand fourteen I think it was I met this guy. Emerson's parts Emerson sparked stream who we ended up in in one of the versions of the headline we ended up calling him the king of Click Bait which I felt was like a little mean but also fair and at the time like yet it's kind of like you're saying they weren't shutting me down but they they were Kinda like invading the other my bosses at the New Yorker were Kinda like all right prove. It prove that this is a big deal because there's a kind of pitch h that often happens at those Tuesday meetings that is there's a business doing something that sounds Kinda dodgy to which I think the appropriate sorta skeptical response is is there's lots of things that happen in the world that are people trying to make a buck and they kind of have to rise to a pretty high level of either outright criminality galaxy or there has to be some kind of real interesting scam. That's intrinsically interesting or there has to be some you know the thing I was describing was not like some criminal conspiracy or is it was just like there's this thing happening and it feels really gross and it feels like a harbinger of really bad things but I just didn't knowhow to conceive of it exactly so yes so they let me go do this thing because they could tell I was exercised about it. They could tell that it had like touched a nerve in me. Somehow they're like just yes you do it and actually that was one of the ones where I was still an editor at the time so I brought it into a meeting just for to put in the hopper for someone else to someone. Just take this yeah. I wasn't thinking thanks for myself and they I think correctly sense like you've got a feeling about this like you should be the one to do it because that's the other thing I mean a lot of these pieces. What matters matter is about? It is the alchemy between writer subject. It's not someone should really write a piece about Click Bait. It's like you. Should you have things to say and you're GONNA say them. In this imbedded way that infuses this is the voice and feeling of the peace so this kid you know I I was randomly seated next to him at a dinner and he started kind of imperiously explaining to me why hi his new media business model which was essentially just regurgitating garbage on the Internet. OMG FACTS DOT COM G. Fax Dot Com and uh-huh gives me hope dot com you know like kinda heartwarming facts chicken soup for the teenage soul for the twitter verse or something was one of their slogans like he would just turn this stuff stuff out and it would be one thing if he were Kinda like you know what man like I gotTa make a living and I just I found out that people will click on the shit if you serve it to them and that's just what I do like if it were sort of presented with some amount of humility but instead it was like the Internet is America crecy. I have figured figured out how to crack the code and therefore I am your overlord and like your dinosaur media will implode and I didn't think he was wrong about the employing part I just thought he was wrong to feel superior and so I was like exercised and I was like and I kinda was starting to put the pieces together in my head like okay and again. These are all obvious steps in a syllogism is just like I had never really liked worked it all out before it's like okay. There are very few checks on American businesses full stop. There are even fewer checks on American media businesses for very good reason like the First Amendment therefore any twenty six year old schmuck can come along mm-hmm and start a website for almost no money and disrupt the other websites such as and times dot Com and whatever like where does it stop what is to stop us from going from and I don't WanNa like paint a a an idealized vision of some golden age like there have always been penny papers burs. There's always been sensationalist. Yellow Journalism. Bob Is never been perfect. There's always been partisan press. There's always been open racism in the in the media but I guess what it was is that there was this tacit assumption that because it's technological improvement from a like cutting the fat you know business efficiency sense therefore it's civic improvement yeah we'll the disruption in and of itself as value yeah and it's like do you guys have ever looked up disruption the dictionary like why are you exalting this per se as a value value. There was just this basic on willingness to look at not even that I had some crystal ball and I was saying this will definitely turn out badly. It was just like it's possible that it will turn out badly and in fact you have to the burden of proof is on you to tell me why it won't as opposed to the opposite where at the time I mean it's hard remember now because this is turned so quickly yeah but it really was at the time two thousand fourteen even two thousand fifteen you show up at these parties like the conference where I met this dude and if you would say like I think this whole thing we're doing here is counterproductive. They wouldn't throw you out but they would like laugh at you like tonight yeah and it went. When did you start seeing the sort of like all right? Let's just say all right. There's a whole thing in the book about how difficult it is to categorize arises things but which we can get into but when did you start seeing that what was the first story that kind of like put those things together that it was going to be. It's not just a media. technological phenomenon people are creating platforms and they're being used certain way. It's actually like a political phenomenon yeah well. I kind of wish I could say that I was like really keyed heat into the Steph Rosie Gray and Charlie Zell and Joe Bernstein were writing and buzzfeed and I was really like following fortune and h obsessively and but that's not the truth is for me. Trump was the moment when I started going. Oh not only does this affect me and my relationships and not only is it annoying annoying when people pick up their phone during dinner and all that Shit but like who is in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal is dependent on the way like garbagey memes travel through these channels that people aren't even designing with any forethought that are just almost like emergent properties of capitalism. Uh so fair depressing yeah. It's not one of many things that I found depressing about your work Andrew. Sorry it's true I mean it's like it doesn't mean that this stuff was faded to happen or that. Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey wanted it to happen or that. They were sitting in a back room. You know going we will destroy democracy but it's not that it's like they wanted to make money. They wanted to make people addicted to their products. Just like any good good business person would WANNA do there. Were no checks on them in the way that like if you're making another addictive product like opioids or you know cigarettes or whatever it's maybe not not being the best example but like there were some there was something there is like a controlled drug schedules yes and this there was nothing to prescription. Exactly like that you can abuse is it but there's still something this was like nothing and also like this literally affects everything else like one of the analogies I ended up coming to was social media was that it's like a party like you started partying. At first. There's no one there and you feel pathetic and you're like how is this going to sustain itself and then a few of your friends French show up and then their friends show up and then you know you want it to be fun and interesting so you don't WanNa like hamper the mood you want to let everybody do whatever they want to do and let their freak flag fly and you know smoke a cigarette. If you WANNA smoke a cigarette like that's why this is cool party and then someone smokes a cigarette cigarette in someone else's like I have asthma really better if people didn't smoke in here and then you're like Oh okay now I have trade offs and I have to make rules you extrapolate that out and suddenly suddenly two billion people at your party. which has you know? FACEBOOK is what two point three billion people now. It's like bigger than Catholicism and Islam even that's too big of a party to control and so by the time you come in kind of ex post facto and start to try to make rules. It's like a little bit too late and also there's a very baked in ethos of we'll wait you said in the beginning of this party you said anything goes like you said this was going to be a cool party where people don't tell me what to do. Oh and then if you come in retroactively and start trying to make rules people start rebelling against you you start worrying that people are going to all decide to leave on mass and go to your rival party and or your or even worse like a party in China so you so you are constantly trying to maintain market share at the expense of making sure that people at your party aren't like burning couches and throwing them out the window. Although I feel like one of the things that is clear looking back that it wasn't like people were trying to control that at least until after the election it wasn't like people were trying to control that failing for the most part for the most part the kind of people people who started these companies were actually principally they had established the principle by which they would not try to do that. No matter what happened yet. It's like like if law enforcement comes to US and tells us that laws are being broken then maybe we'll look into it but other than that free speech and again like like a lot of these things free speech Great First Amendment great freedom of inquiry and freedom to be a contrarian and think for yourself like these are all good things but like all things they have have to be kind of held intention with other things and if you just become an absolutist and you just sort of say like dogmatically free speech is all that matters so therefore you can just shout racist insults at someone all day long and make them cry and leave and threatened to blow up their house like at a certain point there are limits. That's just how this stuff works works. When you're living in a society and these things the more they became less like a pathetic party with ten people and more like a society the more they had to kind of make up rules on the fly like as it was happening and they didn't know how to do it because they were coders who just wanted to make a cool thing? It was like if you had someone build a room for a party and then had them make up the laws by which that would they're like. I just want to make rooms so you have these things coming together. You're starting to see these things in your story. So there's there's the tech end of it which of the people who built these platforms and then there's sort of like the media part of it which is memes and Click Bait and things that that are sort of getting able to generate huge attention in a way that the old school media can't and then you have this kind of Lake right wing movement movement of ideas that's developing and you could write about it as those are ideas that are out there in the world but you wrote about them as reported pieces and it struck me that that raised like a bunch of interesting challenges one of which is the people in the right wing movement alright whatever the trolling and it's very difficult to tell when they're joking not joking. Sometimes they're doing both at the same time and how did you navigate that like you profiled Mike Stern of each that was like one of the big things and then he features in the book. How do you navigate this realm of like wind? Take people seriously especially people who are doing saying terrible things and then saying Oh. I was just joking yeah that that's like a horrible reporting jail. Yeah it's tough reporting challenge. It's also a tough ethical John's because it's like on one level. You're trying to get it right and make sure your correctly actly understanding the levels of irony in that they're not trolling you into printing things that aren't true or into taking literally things that were supposed to be jokes or vice versa. It's also an ethical legal challenge in the sense of like if there are people who are propagandists whose goal is to get enough attention from the mainstream media to smuggle their message through larger channels and and you are being used as an instrument of that like fuck that I don't WanNa be part of that and so that's the kind of third rail that like that New York Times and profile of Nazis and touched and and how do you stay away from that. I thought about it constantly. I I lost more sleep about it than I I mean. It's really really really hard like you again. You have to hold lots of different values intention right so it's not enough to take one and go well. I wrote something true and the point of journalism is to write something true so like yes. It might be true that Gavin McInnes is a naughty provocateur who wears natalie pressed wight dress shirts. Those are all true facts they Kevin McGuinness being the ex vice guy who the Exxon artists thing boys raise a essentially a white white supremacist violence group yes he would be shocked and chagrined to hear you describe it that way but yeah he there's one proud boy party that I was reporting from her were standing next to Gavin and he says it people are calling us a white pride organization but where do they even get that from like we some of my best friends black in like we're a civic nationalist organization not a white nationalist oriented and then he leaves the room and I turned to the guy next to me and like why are you here and he's like because I'm white and I'm proud to be white and then Gavin's always saying you're supposed to be proud to be white so it's like he heard the dog whistle pretty clearly even though Gavin will deny it if asked so again there's these levels of like if I had quoted the first part accurately there would have been no fact checking violation of me just saying then Gavin McInnes a very well dressed man with well sculpted facial hair told me that he denies any accusations of impropriety but if you don't dig a little more it's not even about like both sides or representing everything in an equitable way. It's just like you're not getting the getting fooled and I was constantly petrified that I was getting fooled by these people like they're there's so many layers there's of denials and jokes and you can get fooled by them by taking their denials too seriously you can also get fooled by them by getting so tired of being gasoline gaslight that you start going. We'll no matter what you say I know you're a Nazi and you can denied all you want and I'm still going to call you a Nazi. That's not good either because it's like then you cry cry wolf and you use up all your Nazi cards for when you actually meet the Nazis but then you also have to grapple this question of inevitably people are going to say why don't you just ignore them. Yes I grappled with that all the time and I should say most of the things I did ignore. I mean most of the Times that people would pitch me. Hey I'm a shitty person on the Internet and one profile me like I'm contacts they knew I was and they and and you know and people are constantly vying for attention in this world I mean one of the people who I I mean spoiler did end up spending time profiling. Was this Guy Lucien winter who you know Oh. One of my first big entrees into this world was the deploraball they called it their inauguration party get deplorable. I was there and it was fair. Fair inauguration bash of like we did this guy's we memed trump into the White House so like everyone in that room one meter profile them basically and mostly. I found it all skin crawley and I didn't want to do I mean it's weird like obviously I'm there. I'm reporting on it but I didn't want to be used as a a vector. I wanted to be in control of what I wrote. You know what I mean I didn't want to be I mean again. I think when this stuff is done right a certain kind of journalism awesome it's so filtered through the lens of the observer whether it's there's any first person pronouns in it or not that it's like here's my take on on what it looks like when our country starts going down the shitter so it's not like I'm being told by my subjects what's worthy of attention and what's not that always feels like an important portent distinction but so I'm at this party and one of the people who is vying for my attention is this Guy Lucien Lynch who just is obvious. He's like Milo light like Milo. Hello Milo Yannopoulos Miley pless had decided not to go to the party because he what he wanted to be the headliner and they didn't guarantee him headlined. These people are all just ego driven maniacs so I am so Milo wasn't there but Lucian was this other. You know he's gay. He's very interested in dressing in this very upscale kind of vintage preppy way he kind of really admires Anne Coulter as a kind of Proto troll and I was like go away I don't and then he says you know I'm going to go there. Was this kind Donovan M- all night there were these kind of people making speeches and was kind of this like half political rally half you know like black-tie gala and he's like listened to my speech so I I was like trying to see if I could grab Peter Thiel for like on the spot interviews financier Peter Thiel shows up. I'm like hey there's Peter deal but but I was like okay. I'm like wow I'm kinda hovering around Peter Thiel I'm gonNA listen to Lucien winters from the stage and or I I don't remember which order it happened in exactly but he goes on stage and he writes for this to call it. A tabloid is like mean to Joseph Pulitzer. It's like it's called the Gateway Pundit and it is this extremely popular website that you found this kind of a correlation between how bad website is for the world and how bad a website is for your ram on your computer like there's some websites that you open and you're just like I think computers just immediately GONNA die. The Fan starts worrying being like and you're like it's one of those where the correlation is strong enough. I'm weird. I just want to point out I feel like you also described salon that well actually with the with the exception of Salon I mean there's there's basically two camps there websites that are like that because they feel like they're just messing with you and then there's websites where it's like. We just gotTA run Ronald. Sorry we gotta do it. We will every possible add track will be placed on this site exactly so with the exception of salon but Lucien Lucians so he writes for this thing called the gateway pundit which is like Breaking Hillary Clinton has gum disease and is a member of Muslim Brotherhood then they they are very into counter narratives and conspiracies and they're an important link in the chain lending can't just be Sean. Hannity can't spend all day on Gab like there has to be something transmitting. The MEMES GAB is like a right wing Chat Yeah Cali twitter for yes. If you get kicked off twitter. Yes is kind of bizarre twitter so point being the gateway pundit is a shitty website Lucian winch rights for the Gateway Pundit. When I was at the deploraball he went up on stage age and said I just want to announce to all of you here in this beautiful occasion that I'm going to be the White House correspondent for the Gateway Pundit and then I kind of was like you know what U. N? Lucian I'm gonNA write about because he had made it inside. I mean it truly it was the ultimate manifestation of it was the the gatecrashers have breached the gates. It was like literally this you know the most sanctified I mean whatever we can argue about what kind of journalism happens within the White House briefing room and whether that is the most truly sanctified form of journalism but it's definitely a status symbol that in any other timeline of our universe that was not a demonic simulation lose interest should not be in that room and he got got in that room and even when I was on the mega bus down to DC with him. I was like still this could be a troll but even if this is a troll you know it won't be the same kind of peace. Maybe it will be a shorter piece. He's but even then I'll get a piece out of it like if he was just doing this to fuck with me like if he got to the White House Gates and they were like you're not on the list go away and then he made a video about how they were denying him access because they were censoring him and whatever even trump's America real journalism is still being shut out then that would be a talk peace but that that just highlights romy what is such a mind fuck about what you're covering which is that it doesn't fall into any category like if you look at it from afar you can just kind of say like others a thing hang the alright and they do this stuff but then when you look closely it feels like you have true anti-semites you have true Nazis. He's white supremacists than you have. People that are like dabbling in that and then you have people who are joking about it but also dabbling in it and it just feels to me like impossible to kind of reconcile it all yeah sometimes you could get to the bottom of it in a like investigative way. Then I had a few of those moments in the book where I was like just sat around for long enough that they kind of forgot I was there and then started saying what actually believed and sometimes they will even just say with actually believe like on their own podcast when they think nobody's listening so they'll just sort of let their guard down and you know Richard Spencer will you know go on CNN and and be like I just WANNA fight for a world of equality or whatever bullshit he says and then he'll go on a podcast like the daily show my favorite podcast and say yeah I mean obviously obviously I'm trying to like make sure the Jews leave this country because they are destroying everything like so. It's not like sometimes if you just hang around around for long enough the truth will reveal itself but in other cases like you're saying it's not that simple. It's not like these people just are Nazis and you just have to wait for the mask to slip. It's more like I mean to return to the example of Lucian like so I spent much of the first few weeks of the trump administration shadowing him through the trump White House and watching him kind of just suck at it like he never got ask a question. He wasn't really prepared hard to ask a question he was kind of just enjoying the exercise of being there because just even the fact that he was there was freaking people out and getting people like me to pay attention to him and so like you never to return to your like tradeoff ethics question. You never escaped from that. There's never a time when you go like I am in the clear ethically thickly here one hundred percent yeah. There's always some tradeoff yeah and I was always aware that there was some transactional thing going on and I guess you know you just run various trade-offs in your mind of like how much does it help my readers to be informed about this stuff and put that up against how much the art lighter outright people want me to be doing the thing I'm doing and try to weigh those in the balance will then I mean the other aspect of it is that you're Jewish and you're sitting sort of amongst them and their these moments where they kind of lake like especially with the daily show a guy where he's sort of leg he asks you you. That was a weird moment because I I mean this. This is a person who is explicitly antisemitic to the Plaza's Blake brand brand. I mean he's anonymous at the time of his identity comes out but and you are kind of like spending time with his family trying to figure out who this guy is and then in somewhere in the reporting process he realizes that you are like the target yeah and while it was while he was on the phone with but I mean that feels feels like another layer of discomfort that you would experience in the reporting process totally too difficult one to dislike mentally process when you go home totally. Why actually I was at home? I was on speakerphone with him at the kitchen table and Sahra. My wife was like kind of hovering around listening coming in 'cause she was like home to and it was Friday night. We are actually supposed to go out to dinner and I was like can't go. I've got a date with a Nazi and then I like and I it never occurred to me that he wouldn't know I was Jewish because he had been hearing rumors for weeks that I was kind of circling around him and we'd already emailed and he had already like told me like like uteri blown me off so he knew I was he knew my name. He had access to Google like I've written for magazine. I'm not like what are you doing buddy. I just read some of your film film Avatar. I stand by that Avatar of you. Sahra hates it and told me she almost wouldn't date me because she hated it so much but I feel like like the whatever they're called are the maccabees whatever they're called the doth Raqi or whatever their names are but and also I stand by Avatar is a film I would would see it again right now but disagree but we can. We can address that off. I think my dorm out but they look I actually it's weird because yes it's uncomfortable to be talking to someone who is a professional for a living anti Semite at the moment that they're finding now that you're the enemy it was comical. It was disturbing. It wasn't like a calming experience. It wasn't like I didn't like just sort of get off that phone call and be like art what's on TV you know but at the same time I didn't have the same ethical dilemma because in a weird way my like subject position as a journalist journalist was completely already predetermined I there was no with everything else I constantly felt the need to make clear to the reader and make clear myself that I wasn't getting fooled by the bullshit. Yes I can try to tease out all the layers of her trolling and joking not joking an irony and not irony while also trying to maintain enough of moral compass to be clear about like but they're fundamental enterprise is still a like fucked up propagandistic enterprise and even though I didn't want to have to say in in every paragraph parentheses I know that these people are shitty like you. Don't WanNa make it that explicit but I wanted that to be embedded in the approach in the voice in the whatever ever 'cause there's you know there's a more gawker version of that. which in a way is more honest which is dislike Shitty shithead does shitty thing is would be the headline yeah? The New Yorker is not going to do that version of the story and so I had to wrestle with how to do it in a New Yorker away that felt you know high minded or whatever without giving too much legitimacy and taking too seriously things that don't deserve to be taken seriously yeah with the Anti Semite that was kind of off the table because it was like okay. I don't have to worry about where I stand and where the reader thinks I stand I I am who I am and he is who he is and I can just write the story you know so in a way that was like the clearest one I mean to go back to the what you wouldn't do. Versus what you know like Gawker turn older Gawker. Let's say pre pre retail. Whatever you call it would do I mean this kind of takes us back to the beginning of being sort of like anti institutionalists kid is that it's interesting the story how you describe becoming you are the defender of traditional norms not not just the obvious one like the Nazis but but the people who were just messing around and the tech people who were saying what so bad anything goes is fine right the norms terms of like old traditional gatekeeper journalism young never thought I would end up there like I never thought that I would be the one when I was like a post-collegiate Brooklyn Acklin kid showing up at these like pretentious sort of like all the sad young literary men parties in like walk up apartments in Brooklyn and just having opinions just like all you are is just a machine of just like my opinions are better than Europeans? I was that guy. I'll admit it I was was that guy so those that room of people to them. The New Yorker is the man they're never going to be like we know it's really Great Than Yorker in the New York Times and CNN n. like that's not going to be. That's not the aesthetic so then a week later on working at the New Yorker and suddenly I'm the man like I didn't. I felt not like I had like betrayed. It's like the New Yorkers bad in that world. It's just not like interesting or cool. It's like you know the establishment and then I really had to wrestle with. How much am I really anti `institutionalised because even if I feel like there's some part of me that anti authoritarian anti `institutionalised when I actually sleep number actually had a job before so I'm like anti `institutionalised in theory because the institutions that I've been bucking against have been like ones that have nothing to do with me the other ones that are like my middle school or my college or whatever or like Wells Fargo exactly are well yeah Damn Wells Fargo but then I'm like actually working at a place where I'm like Oh wait? I am definitely the least smart person here and I definitely respect everyone who's here and they're just doing a really good thing really well. Like what am I going against exactly and again like it's hard to separate that from the completely legitimate argument that the mainstream media is flawed in a million ways. Yeah gatekeepers have presented huge problems out history yeah. They've made massive mistakes. They've let us into wars. They've there's all kinds of corporate control issues. There's all kinds of I mean. Those critiques are really robust and well taken but the the problem one of the many problems is that when the disrupters came along and said Hey we got this flawed system guess what we're going to. We're going to disrupt it. We're going top. We're GONNA shake it up. They had no even inkling think of a thought about what was going to replace it. It was just like I think that was just again seen as like a fusty Luddite you know oh well you don't get it bro like we just innovate and then like works itself out and I think we have now seen. It doesn't just work itself out and are you. Who Do you feel like you WanNa continue trying to figure out what these people are doing? Do you WANNA stay in this world or are you done and with this world. There are moments in the book where I feel like it seemed like you. You couldn't take it anymore hanging inside of that world yeah and do you feel like you're going to stay in there air and try to figure out what's going on and kind of like offer up this explanation on an ongoing basis because it's it doesn't stop the it doesn't stop now. I mean I did say throughout the book like my my next project is going to be about puppies and rainbows and ice cream and I don't feel like I'M GONNA burn. Burn a lot of bridges like I. I feel like I'm speaking pretty honestly in the book about how I'm not a fan of these people. I don't try to do the sort of straight ahead. Both sides Colonel Ism where I say like well. You must admit you know I mean again like I do. Try to be fair in the sense that I don't make things up and I don't sort of take cheap shots tonight. Try to keep it to like the ones we're not Caesar Nazis in the ones who are not or not and you know I try to be fair in that way and there are people in the book come off way worse than others and therefore there are people. Oh come up better than others but I don't know how many of these people are GonNa WanNa hang out with me for another three years. After this and I don't think I would want to do that. I think the underlying problems don't go away and in a way there are certain like underlying preoccupations with belief and end sort of concerns of like how do we form our beliefs. How do we know what's true? How do we justify our beliefs to each other that I think will stick with me forever and and I've always been drawn to writing pieces about in a way that I'm not really conscious of at the time but I'll kind of look back on a piece of like Oh that that piece was also about how we form our beliefs in how we make our beliefs intelligible to other people so that I think will stick with me and I definitely think I'll continue to be interested in whether democracy will survive it'll just be happy I mean I'm interested in media broadly concerned concerned and you know there's so many things I think part of part of why it took us as a society as weirdly long as it did to come around to listen even to the point when I was shopping this book proposal around it was still like Oh what are you some Kinda like starry eyed anti-capitalist list Weirdo who just wants to like tear down America's most successful companies and they weren't seen as robber barons they were seen seen as innovators and it was like well if you don't like what's happening on these platforms than you just don't like free speech and you just don't let people's representations of their Inter Psyche and it's like the very subtle ways in which it was working people's psyche? I mean again. I feel like there are there have been amazing investigative accounts of people uncovering documents and showing how people at these companies have engaged in malfeasance and all these things but that's not where my main skill set is my main skill set is trying to tell a story that describes the effect it's having on us and on the world and and that doesn't always come from like original material percent. I mean a lot of it is original but some of it is just taking things that are familiar and re describing them to a reader in a way that makes them go like it's more a feeling even set of logical conclusions like I again to dislike Lamai pretentious cards on the table like I really feel like nonfiction. Kinda gets a bum rap because everybody talks about nonfiction fiction in terms of oh well I have ingested this information and I now have these five facts that I can repeat at a cocktail party and it's like sure some nonfiction is it's like that. Some of it can be reduced to a bullet point primer of whatever but a good book is a good book whether it's fiction or nonfiction it should create a feeling of to create a world. It should be a thing you wanna live in in that tilts the way you see things I mean. Isn't that the point I it's always just been so weird to me. See that it's like if you were like looking at a painting in a museum and then someone was like oh you know those like apples and pears in that still life those actually existed those were real apples and pears and you're like Oh okay nevermind I don't care about this painting any like I don't care about the composition. I don't care about the colors I just you. I should've told me like Oh. It's three apples in two pairs. Okay and you walk away like what I don't understand. It's I don't get why the fact that it is based on real things or based on invented things. It's still oh a book right like that's why when people go oh it reads like a novel. I'm like a good novel or a bad novel. Like what do you mean like like. Could you imagine engine being like all right. I'm GONNA GIVE YOU GATSBY ten minutes. It's like there's rich people and there's like really excesses and Blah Blah Blah but like in the end. It's going to be okay like what again like. I'm not F Scott Fitzgerald. I'm not like that good but it's like. Shouldn't you try to be that good Andrew. Thank you for taking a conversation that is ongoing in our alive and reducing just some part of it into this part is by me Nice Bourbon so that's you know I didn't realize that's what it took. Thanks for coming on thank you. That's it for this week's long-term podcast. I'm Mira Co host Evan ratliff. Thanks to Andrew Marantz for coming in. Did he really have a choice choice. I don't think he did his book is coming out next week you can now it's called antisocial. Check it out thanks to my co host maximum skinner and Lamour and into our editors and Al Pifer to our intern Marina Clementi and as always to our sponsors

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Taylor Lorenz on Internet Culture, Influencers, Trolls, and TikTok.

Bad On Paper

1:47:05 hr | 1 year ago

Taylor Lorenz on Internet Culture, Influencers, Trolls, and TikTok.

"Hi everyone. Welcome back about on paper PODCAST. I'm Becca Freeman. I'm Grace Atwood. And we have such a fun yesterday. Oh such a fun guests. We've got Taylor. Iran's from the New York Times. She covers everything influence or culture in the Internet and I feel like her. Articles are always the ones that all of my friends are reading. Yes but before we get into it this episode sponsored by rent the runway so we are both completely obsessed with their unlimited membership. Which gives you access to a rotating closet for more than six hundred designers soon. We'll tell you more about it later in the episode. But if you want to sign up you can use the Code B O P to get one dollars off your first sixty day trial. This episode is also brought to you by night the makers of our favorite pillow. It's comfortable it's good for your skin and hair. It's basically a win win again. We're going to tell you more about this one later in the episode but if you try the night pillow or any of their other amazing beauty sleep products you can take twenty percent off at discovered night dot com with Code B O P Twenty. So before we get to tailor. Chris what has been your Highness Week. Okay I I've had a lot of visitors. So my friend. Natalie was visiting from Charleston this week and that was really fun but we went out a lot and went to a lot of parties. And I'm feeling a little run down and then The guy that I'm dating is staying with me for a few days so that is really fun. HEARD THE HOTEL. Atwood Hotel Atwood Hotel Stripe That's actually what my friends call it. Because I like wanted my apartment to feel like a hotel. Why moved in. How are your tripadvisor reviews? I'm pretty good pretty good. Yeah yeah no bad. Yelp scores yet How about you? This is a silly one but I brought one of my plants back from the brink of death and I feel so victorious. That's impressive what did you. What did you do to it so I think the biggest thing that I did was I moved it stupid thing but this is a victory for because I and my old apartment not this current one but my old apartment I ha I at one point? I think I bought six plants. I killed them all within a year. All my plans to my new apartment are doing well except for this one. No I I killed one. That's not true. I killed one in this apartment but yeah I killed one my big plant doing great but I had this little plant. It's like green and then it kind of has pink commonly thought it was so cute and all the ends of the leaves turn Brown and I was like I couldn't figure it out. I don't think it's that I'm the watering schedule. I don't know so that anyway. I'd watered it and I just put it on my kitchen cart next to a window and it was already in a sunny spot but I think it like really like son Now it has come back from the brink of death it had like just a little baby sprout and I was like I. Just throw this thing out like I've read killed this but it's sproul is coming along so well that's so exciting job. My mom would be proud. Mum Yeah Yeah. What about your low? My Louis just a dumb one. It's not one So my like urine bonus gift to myself or whatever was. I bought the design within reach bed that I had been saving up for and just like drooling over for so long and it was supposed to be delivered and it showed up broken so they had to take it away and I guess they're bringing it back tomorrow but I don't believe them. There is nothing more frustrating than ordering furniture in it. Not Working out. It was it just. It took two months for it to come and it was such a big purchase and I just feel like Sir like a luxury retailer should be held to a different standard of customer service like If it was I I would have been understanding if crackers on me. I had my old apartment. I had a really tight corner when right when you walked in. Yeah and when I first moved in there I ordered a couch and it wouldn't fed around the corner. Oh so I had to have them. It was it wasn't their fault but I had to have them take it away then. I had to order in a new couch and I just like had the saddest living room for months while I was waiting for the new one. It just so hard because it takes so long to come and then when it you've like. I'd been like building anticipation. It was Christmas morning from me. As like it's coming today and then it shows up cows so devastated. This is like such a privilege stupid problem that my expensive bed showed up broken. But it's thoughts. I will say that At first they were completely unresponsive to my I called them I emailed them and IBM THEM. And then my friend. James escalated it to his friend who works there and then I got like a really nice personalized treatment. But I always say like if I didn't have like a social media following then what would have happened. Would I'd just be still calling them. I would hope that if you're buying a bed that's as expensive as that one is that they would be treating you. Well no matter we I would I would hope so too I. I'm a little skeptical though Yeah but the bet is coming hopefully next week. It's my high that I love it so much. Yeah what about you if two so the first one is I'm getting sick? I just started feeling not great yesterday. I'm a little nervous that you're going to get me sick. I know I have a low fever. I just felt like I'm on the down swing so it's currently Thursday and I was like I feel like we should record now because if I end up getting really sick that I'm certainly not gonna WanNa record then so getting sick. I'm the Weird anticipation state where I'm like. What is this GONNA turn to? Oh we don't know yet. The second thing is so within our division of responsibilities for the PODCAST. I handle all of our accounting stuff and doing getting ready for taxes for the PODCAST. Such a headache and it's funny because we made literally. Can I say how much I think we each made nine thousand dollars from the for the for the whole year? Which is don't get me wrong. Great for hobby is something but we spend on it. It's it's growing which is really exciting. But it is nothing and so now. I'm like dealing with all of nobody. Ten Ninety nine like tracking down all of our tax forms and like. Oh that's so annoying. I was under the impression that if you didn't get a ten ninety nine you just declare as non ten ninety nine income and it's not your fault. I don't think so I think non ten ninety nine income is for like other types of income that somebody doesn't oh you attend ninety nine. I don't know I just always give my accountant. My list of everyone. And what What they paid me and my quickbooks to and then he figures it out while we haven't gotten to that point yet. I'm just harassing people. But yes good times I have over one hundred ten ninety nine so I have to let go log that sucks. It's not have you gotten them though. Yeah I don't know if I've gotten ten miles from everyone I had to make a list of all the ones that we were expecting of them. There's probably like thirty of them. We've got four. Oh that's that's real. Not Great Yeah so okay. The podcast taxes are dark side. That I did not anticipate okay. Anyway if you feel bad for me because I am sick and dealing with the government you know what you can do. Leave us a review. It would make me feel a lot better. Yeah I would love that and even more so if you want to take a screen shot of this podcast and put it on your instagram story to share it with your friends and get them to listen. I would love that. It really makes such a difference in helps us grow and it also just brightens our day. We read on us every single every day. I check in every day and also obviously. Dmz mentions. Did you see the one? Last week slammed Dunkin Slam Dunk in favor of your weight. Can we read it? I love this one. I think. Just the Helmet Dunkin. It was really nice. Yeah it was very cute. This person had a goal to read more after giving birth second baby and she's thank goodness for our recommendations. Yeah it's really nice really sweet. Yeah all right. So we get into the episode yellow. Talk to Taylor. Yes Taylor runs is a technology reporter at the New York Times where she covers Internet culture. She talks about influencers social media and memes amongst other things she was previously a staff writer at the Atlantic and the daily beast. Taylor's writing has been everywhere. She has appeared in outlets including the New York magazine. Buzzfeed and many more. She lives in Brooklyn and we are so excited to have her here. We're big fans Taylor and I met at a four party. Needs to go talk to her. She's really good and we've been friends ever since and Becca in her share a very intense. Take Talk Obsession. True as worldly. What was the other thing you both love? Her little sister is friends with one of my good friends. Yeah there was something else. You both are obsessed with that. I had a range of obsessed with something else what we're obsessed with it. I don't know take talk mostly talk. Which is something else so it was like when like five minutes ago. We're talking about it and I can't remember. We talked for like an hour before we started recording. So I don't know we'll see we'll get to IT I. I'm sure it will come back but Taylor were so excited her here. Thank you for having me. I WanNa talk about weird Internet stuff. Yeah let's get into it. Yeah Okay we before we get into the weird Internet stuff though. Can we hear in your own words like who you are and what you do? Yeah so I write for the style section of the New York Times which people always think that means like I read about fashion which I very much do not I write about so internet culture. Basically anything going on online like trending stuff And a lot about influence culture I've written about kind of quote unquote Internet famous people for a really long time And yes I've covered generations of youtubers viner's now tick talkers all that type of stuff And it's really fun. Irate culture features so less like breaking news and more kind of like longer form things. I'm sure that people have read Taylor's article. She just had a great article in the New York Times about podcast facebook groups. Yeah which everyone should go join ours? Did I linked? Here's I it's okay. Oh I didn't move. It's okay I feel like I linked tried to so many I well when I initially filed it. I like linked to like thirteen of like all my favorite. I think matter was like cut in half. But how does one get this job? How does one come to be an internet culture reporter? I don't think in college. I'M GONNA COVER TECH TALKERS. Okay in College. I was at Frat parties not on the Internet very much at all actually But after I graduated literally Over ten years ago I basically graduated into the financial crisis. Like many millennials and I was working a bunch of temp jobs Kind of not sure what I wanted to do. And this girl at what may temp jobs showed me tumbler. She was like Oh i. Just go and Tumbler all day At this receptionist job. I remember when I found Tumbler. I was like what is this. This is so cool literally so I found it in two thousand nine and I that was the end like I. I was on it like seventeen day the way I am onto. This is the best I started going to tumbler. Meet up all my friends. Were from Tumbler. And I mean I grew up in Connecticut and I would say most my friends pretty offline people growing up and I remember when I first got into Tumbler. It was weird. I felt like I really found my people like I was just like. Oh my God. There's this whole world like creative quote and James. Nor I remember him. I followed him forever and yeah it just became my life and you know that was also the time when a lot of big youtubers. Were on Tumbler. So I ended up building a popular tumblers. People knew me from Tumbler. What was your most popular? It's so funny because when I went back through I like archived and deleted eighty of them and I yeah like a couple years ago. It was like I shouldn't have all this on the Internet just. I don't know I did that. With my blogs. I had like five different blogs. Yeah I did that with my twitter because my twitter was just. I don't tweet that much. And it was all just me complaining to airlines know endless story but they need to make a separate. I was complaining about airline today. Not a specific airlines. We're not allowed to do that. But like was just ranting about flying and I think they need a separate twitter just for like we policy. You're not allowed to. We can't make a tweet at specific brands. They'll they'll the brand obviously freak out and be like your journalist and and I don't really have anything against Pacific airline brands. But I just like they're all bad they're all it's not always gone. Well I might have been on a certain airline recently. I've I've always cursed with lying. I think back as to wait so you delete her twitter. Becker no I just deleted the tweets because when we started the podcast I was like oh I need to like clean this up and I went back and I was like. Wow I was just really tweeted at every consumer advocates back. I suppose but yeah with with three hundred followers. Only 'cause we talk about books a lot and all the authors are Twitter. Becca like we need to be tweeting and she was like. I don't want to tweet and so then I forced her. It's too fast or don't like twitter. I know it's really toxic. But I'm in Iraq. You want people to thank you. I think it's just a hard thing to jump into yet so hard to jump into. It's like trying to drink from a fire hose. Yeah I like I. I got on twitter only to follow my friends from Tumbler so I got on twitter kind of late for media people. I guess I got on it. Like twenty eleven anything. That's when I started using it but for my first year on there I had a lock account and I would tweet it people all the time. I didn't realize this. Yeah that's so funny. I was like Oh. This is having any friends on this website website but yes so after that to basically sort of from tumbler. I like media. Advertising people followed me on Tumbler at that time. And we're like you should get a job like a non shitty temp job so this girl that actually worked at Tumbler. Put ME IN TOUCH WITH. Some people ended up getting a job at this agency. That at the time was like advocaat each agency the year. It was the hottest agency you can work at so I started doing social media for brands like corporate. Twitter ran like you know. Corporate brand accounts facebook pages right when facebook pages. We're still pretty new. Iran bobble bar social media. Oh my God. We talked to each other brands. Yeah were you doing social for SAR clients? Were mostly on Verizon which was so fun during Hurricane Sandy. I was a twitter account when everyone was like you know. I lost my four G. L. T. E. Coverage and I hear my grandmother's dying words on Sorry to curse you can curse but then we also had Miracle Web Chevron a Burger King Bud Light. I did pitched on the bud. Light facebook page for awhile. Fun flintstones vitamins. So yeah it was really fine But I noticed when I was there in twenty eleven that the Daily Mail did not have a facebook page. I don't know if you guys Daily Mail readers. No but I. I'm a WHO weekly listeners. So I get my Daily Mail through that I still I the daily mail top to bottom every single day homepage. My aunt is the biggest Daily Mail Fan. I felt she sends articles on daily. Mail all the time to me. It's very funny really good headline writing. Yeah Oh we got the headlines are full so they tell you everything. It's the best. Yeah when I had my viral moment for Amazon account they did like a big feature on it and it was like one of the craziest things I felt like. They found my whole life story and put incorporated into the article. Yeah well they always try to put like hot pictures of whoever it's about. Yeah like which I think is so funny. Because it's like if there's a picture of you on the Daily Mail will be murdered in cold blood and they'll be like finding your feedback from twenty twelve. I trust them to make me like better than the alternative. If you'RE GONNA dig up my passport photo look like an Svu victim. Like I don't know until like here's the bikini exactly but anyways so I ended up convincing them to hire me. Let me start their entire Social Media Department. Stop. It is yes. I started that from scratch from scratch. I had to build it. I ended up running a Department of eleven people there. I was one of the youngest woman in management And Yeah I built their social media from nothing And Managed. I was a social media. I got promoted and promoted Basically ended up managing team in La New York. London eventually. Australia and Yeah it was great honestly. It was an amazing job. I had never worked news before I never even really considered a job in news But I got a lot of experience like suddenly. I was writing headlines. I was rewriting stories for facebook. I was writing viral news. Try doing all this media strategy and I was like. Oh I love this. So that's when I started writing about the stuff that I care about which is the same stuff that I read about now which is basically like what we're stuff is going on on. Instagram. Yeah but we. How long ago was this? That was back in twenty twelve at the end to end of twenty eleven beginning of two thousand twelve. Okay Okay Yeah. So that's when he made the switch. Yeah and then yeah and then I was a social media director for most of my career Because I I mean I. I wanted to write but I'm very dyslexic and I. I wrote a lot. I would freelance on the side but no one would hire me fulltime. I failed many writing tests trying to get hired but I helped launch this vertical for people magazine in Two Thousand Fifteen that was folks uncovering celebrities. I was very. I wanted to make mound website. I actually did make my own website for a minute. That was just about sort of influencers basically also took it off line. I was writing articles with no editor. Which is really bad. But it wasn't like drama. It was more just like this kinds of stories. I now I finally found this editor Cooper Fleischmann who was at the daily dot and then later Mike Dot com and he he really liked took me under his wing and taught me how to be a journalist. And let me write about whatever I wanted and I developed this beat and I. I really pushed for this to be to be honest because I tried to get hired at every single media company. I don't think there's a media company that I didn't try to become a reporter at and look at you now you now. I got it. Yeah you'd have to try hard enough. You just have to keep keep keep applying and then so that's the lesson here is at the time you felt like. I also talk about it and now you're at the New York Times. They also took a huge huge huge pay cut twice so I tried to me every job. I've talked to pay fame. Sometimes you just have to do that. I took my job at the daily beast and I was making less than fifty percent of what I made it. Oh my God yeah I mean I actually sold on. My belongings moved into this really tiny crappy sublet in Crown Heights. And I was like I'm going to be a writer for year and if I don't get a raise Or if or if I'm bad at it then I'll quit and my parents are like that so stupid. Don't do that Taylor. You're like turning thirty soon. You need to get your life together. and then. I did it and then it worked out so it was good and then I got. I got a raise suck at parents. I love that when I had the same exact thing happens me. I was like twenty eight or twenty nine close to thirty when Zimbabwe bar. My parents were like what is this like your jewelry startup. Like what are you doing like I had a job? Great Beauty Company. I'm like I'm going to take really big pay cut and go work for this company. But I'm going to be happier and they were. They were like you're going to be on. There was no instagram than there was twitter and facebook. They're like you're running their twitter and facebook. They were horrified. Parents ultimately parents always want you to do the job. They would love if I was just like a marketing coordinator at like Deloitte but I also feel like our parents generation nobody was in their job fulfillment like nobody loved their job and they're also not like committed to their jobs in the same way because they emailed didn't exist at the beginning of their career. So I feel like everyone in our parents generation were just like work to live people and like I feel like I've had this conversation many times. My family where they don't understand why. I've made these like on paper. Very weird career moves. But I'm like I just want to be happy. I know it's crazy. We don't know anyone who likes their job. Yeah I know my dad about it. It's like no no no no no you just work to work and then yeah right. Happiness happens outside of work right. It's like no I it's it's different. I mean we also I think people understand now like I mean definitely. The financial crisis affected me a lot and just terms of lake. These companies will never be loyalty. You like they will fire you if it makes sense for them like they can go out of business tomorrow like you attended the Nail. You have is yourself and you got to. I feel also I know so. Few people who work forty hours a week and just punch out at the end of the day and you don't attach their work in some way and it's like if. I want if somebody's GonNa be emailing me at ten o'clock at night like I wanna be excited about what I'm doing because otherwise what's that got to point. I know so. We got a lot of career related questions. Who did the first one which I'm really curious about if you weren't in your current role. What do you think you'd be doing? I know this I- weird. I think you'd be talk star. Oh my God I'm too old. He could mean grannies on what are you could be. We could start like an iron sanctuary beerbaum. John type like older people who don't have talent and just talking to mirrors. Yeah exactly. I think I could do that. I could rant. I do I have one hundred and fifty thousand followers. So it's a it's nothing I've got great. You Tick Tock followers are not like installers tastes of tick tock followers is really crazy like Charlie. Who's the biggest take Tucker started in August? She now has twenty three million followers and she's gotten like a million in the past week. It's crazy also like every random teenager that you click on like some Middle Schooler Demoain will have eighty thousand followers like everyone on the APP. Just has it's like. I like wonder what that's done to being in school. Why wrote a whole story about that about high schools and tick Tock and kind of the way that it's reshaping highschool experience? I didn't read that and I read all articles story. Yeah it's my first one story all my God. I have to read it. I haven't framed in my apartment. That's amazing But yeah it's crazy. Okay so wait what would you be? Oh so okay so I love horror movies. I love horror and I think we're going to get along. I think if I didn't work I'd WANNA work for like plum house Productions it's like this hormone okay or do something in that realm like I love creepy and I think it would be fun to work in that industry. I don't know what I would do in that world. I'd maybe just like social media for like some horror film. Production Company wanted up a books. Oh yeah scary. Books are my favorite. I used to read so many scary books. I was really into like goosebumps and Fear Street and all night worrying on my start. I'll make all the RL Stein. Yeah it was so good but now I don't read scary books anymore. I need to get back into it. Read verity Is it good? Oh great really fucked up. Oh I gotta read it. Yeah let's take a quick break to talk about a sponsor so today's episode is brought to you by rent the runway. I think we can all relate to that feeling of looking at your closet and just feeling like you have absolutely nothing to wear rent. The runway is a membership that gets you access to clothing from over six hundred designers including some of my absolute favorites. Like Ron a beard. Rebecca Taylor Tanya Taylor and more. So here's how it works with a membership. You get to pick four styles at a time and you can swap those pieces as many times as you want a month so. I like to try to have two pieces at home and two in the mail at any given time so that I started doing that. Because if you and it's made such a difference I used to wait till I used all four and then mail it back. No now you always have something new to wear And you can also add extra slots membership to get more pieces. Yes so for media. Membership is amazing because I go to so many events for work so I always want to look good but I'm oftentimes having my photo taken so I don't want to keep wearing things too often. So that's why rent the runway has been so great ir where my basics constantly but I can cool new outfit for early. Fun Dress For every occasion and then just return it. When I'm done and get something else so for me. I initially joined last spring when we were doing. Our first live show tour and I needed six outfits and I certainly didn't want to spend three hundred dollars or maybe even more for a new dress for every city and it also saved me last summer when I had four weddings and four Bachelorette parties. Yes you got me. Hooked on on the service because of that. I know it's so perfect for occasion dressing where it's something that you probably would only wear a couple of times so. I also feel like I'm a little more adventurous with the rent. The runway my personal style and anytime I'm buying something it's always very classic and something that I think is GonNa. I'M GONNA get a lot of mileage out of but I I had a lot of fun. Like I rented this amazing Red Lemay Leopard Blazer. If you follow me on instagram you probably saw it From tiny Taylor and it also has matching pants. I WanNa rent the whole suit But I would never that on my own like because it's beautiful but it's expensive and impractical. It's a little impractical. So I had so much fun wearing. It's a one of my friends events and I got so many compliments. Yeah so rent. The runway also offers two day shipping. And they take care of the dry cleaning and the insurance so it is a totally stress free experience. I really can't recommend this service enough. It's made getting dressed so much easier and so much more fun. I always something new and exciting to where it's that back to school feeling where you have new close three hundred sixty five days of the year. I feel like I shop so much since I joined So if you're ready to try. Rent the runway unlimited you can use code. Bop O P at rent the runway dot com to get a hundred dollars off your sixty day trial so again. That's rent the runway DOT COM use Code B. O. P. And get one hundred dollars off your sixty day. Trial and now actually episode. Somebody wanted to know what your experience being. A woman in tech has been which is kind of a loaded question. But I'll pivoted to say I want to know what your experiences being a woman in tech reporting on your beat like do you find the people are. Do you get a lot of people who don't take you seriously. I. It's funny. I think people take me really seriously. I mean I have been like very active in this world for so long that I think people know me and so they think I'm like old like especially in the world of like Youtube world like I have been around since two thousand nine and I've been really involved in internet since then and I think people think of me as like an old school kind of person in that world now which is funny because like it's not that it's not that it hasn't been that long so I feel like I have a decent amount of respect. Glad yeah I mean. It's different like with tax reporting. I read about tech from the user sides not dealing with like the CEO of facebook. Yeah I'm dealing with like influence right Usually young influencers older mom. Because I'm in my thirties now and I'm like hey kids you know so we read. This book can't believe. I'm bringing this up as justification for this but there was this point in there. That really stuck with me. That people don't respect the things that women like where it's like books that women like movies women like the same thing is true young people where it's like this is stupid. This is a fad. Where like everyone writes off things that young people like? Yeah one hundred percent. They just write off. Young people lied. Or they fantasize them in a weird way. It's kind of like. Oh these crazy teens. Or they think young people are their saviors where they're like young people will save us all like. There's a narrative online. Now that's like oh the youth like they're so woken they're going to save us and I'm like okay. There's a lot of crazy teenagers with a lot of beliefs. I don't think they know what they're talking about there all the time you know. They're trying to figure it out. But I but I definitely take teenagers seriously and I report on that step seriously because it's pop culture and rate you know that affects guy you never make. It seemed dumb. You're never condescending about it. Yeah well because I when I started out in media I mean what I hated about the mainstream media. I hate using that term but I really don't know like how us to call it. I just feel like people are talking about the mainstream media usually kind of like I don't know have like some serious opinions about it but I mean like this. The kind of like the Internet world wasn't taken seriously and it wasn't You know people were like so condescending about it. People were kind of sending about my stupid tumbler projects and I hated that so I just never want to be that reporter. Yeah yeah that makes a Lotta Sense. Wait speaking of age. How many younger reporters are at the New York Times? It's funny in this like channel called Young's it's all. The young reporters are like in their thirties. But there's a lot of people in their twenties. I mean times is like very young. It's very age diverse because especially in like the podcasting division like I mean my editor is like twenty four and she's brilliant So there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of young people. I think like many years ago like I heard that. Like back in twenty eleven. Two thousand twelve. It used to be like there's only a couple of reporters that were like twenty five and it was a big deal but now I think You know the nearest Hamza so digital focus that we have a lot of other people. Yeah can I bring? What was maybe the most controversial topic that we got asked about on Internet things people to know well. We got a lot of negative things that I don't care to go into about the morning host staff can we? Can we talk about? What is your drama with the morning? Toast Oh my God. Yeah I'm trying to think of how to summarize this as questions about privacy concerns. I think our wrapped into that. Yeah I mean. I have serious concerns about that because I was dogs. Dachshund dicey well people use now any time someone like I saw somebody who weekly facebook group today like say that they were docs because somebody said where they worked. And I'm like lady you. Are you have a public Lincoln pile? No one's dachshund you But my home address and parents address was posted. I WANT IS DOXA. Short-form basically like when they release like all of this hyper personal information on you okay. So they'll put like your address your phone number. Your parents information like not very very non-public available in forgotten with the goal to kind of threaten harass you. How did they find it out? Oh God I mean you can find out anything I mean now. It's much harder to find. You couldn't really find my address now. I've paid for a lot of like security services. Go through scrape my stuff off the Internet But before that You could. You could look up a lot more stuff publicly than you'd think. I would encourage everybody to kind of look into privacy services on the Internet. Because there's a lot more information about you that you'd imagine interesting. I'm not very privacy concerned person but I feel like I should be more once you go through something like I'm sure like super into it so I'll give you the one. Oh one okay. Basically all those people hate me because I wrote an article about two years ago about Claudia Austria and her sister Jackie and their history of Kind of racist Islamophobic comments and the fact that their mother is one of the more famous extremists. Hate mongers out there She's literally banned from entering certain countries because they consider her a threat. What yeah craze. Her name is Pamela Geller. It's terrifying Google her. I mean she's this lake extremist monster. And you know look like extremist and what caused or what was just super super super right wing Like like kind of white supremacy. Oh okay like anti. She was the ones that was trying to like. Not Mitt you know. Make sure that there couldn't be a mosque at ground. Zero like she thinks that You know these Muslim Muslim people need to be kicked out of our country. Oh my goodness yeah. It's really scary and bad and You know I look like I don't think you should be judged just for who your parents are like. I'm sure we all have crazy relatives like I. I totally got that. But the problem is is that you know. Claudia and Jackie had really sympathized with these views and seen you know had kind of Claude had posted many sort of Islamophobic racist things on twitter. And you know her fans will say oh but it was back when it was two thousand twelve note. Wasn't she was making them as recently as twenty seventeen in January two thousand eighteen when posted this article she had posted something on instagram stories? Just a couple of weeks before so you know. She was very openly at trump's inauguration You know they've they're very open sort of trump's supporters. She likes. Her mother is Islamophobic posts. An and just recently at her show live show at the beacon theater. She brought her mother out and her mom was doing meet and greet and everyone cheered and clapped for this woman. Who's an extremist? So I think You know it's really bad to normalize those types of points of view. Claudius never really apologized for any she gave kind of. This halfhearted apology. But which has really done as viciously attacked me and her behavior is bad. And so so we talk more about that. So you Russell Story It gone docks while it got there like Yahoo. Show canceled okay. So there are so you know her fans had a meltdown about it They posted in their facebook group. Somebody actually threatened to cut me like a fish oh my God burst super super terrifying things And the and some of those members that facebook group proceeded to post about my home address. go find all of my family members on facebook and you know down. Vote my uncle's business on. Wassall LIKE HARASS. Call the hospital. That might not work at like. Just crazy crazy stuff. They tweeted photos of my access. Children saying you know with the school that they went to what I have this of all of it. It's crazy. Yeah so these people are crazy and look. There's a lot of like totally normal people in the morning. Toast facebook group. I think that a lot of people don't really realize this. Or maybe they see only a part of it. You know like daylight Claudia's podcast. Whatever and like it's a big community so I'm not trying to say like if you're in that facebook group or if you're a morning toast listener like you're a bad person not like look. I have people that I like. That have probably done problematic things in the past. But I think that it's important to understand this context and also just you know not condone that behavior. Just become aware of it and hold cloudy accountable for it. I mean before we started the show. I think I was telling you. I've gotten hundreds of messages from people that have basically been alienated from that group that are members of minority groups that are Muslim that have felt completely out of place at her shows And you know these are. These are people that paid to go to her live shows. They're that big fans of hers that they paid to the show and then they got you know then they see someone like Pamela. Geller being cheered so You know it's just it's it's not cool and I think people should be aware of it you know. I don't cloudy always thinks like out to ruin her life. I literally am not. I think that anyone who you know who normalizes. These types of us should be held accountable by their by their fans and the fans recall Chicago. Devout more I feel like that's very from a casual lens of somebody who knows of her isn't in facebook groups and doesn't list podcast. I don't feel like this is well known. I know I didn't know about it and I think it also just for me as a avid consumer of me my counts and does all these things. It makes me pause and makes new be like I need to research everyone. I follow and support. I know you just don't think about it. I mean this is funny. She didn't have a job she's tweeting funny thing but then you kind of then you kind of start to see the post. Then you notice that. She's at trump's inauguration. Then you kind of like if you look for it. It's there and I think that's what's so insidious she's she's more aware of it now. I think But yeah and again. That doesn't mean that her life you know like I'm not trying to encourage anybody to go like ruined her life. It's just more like if you are going to be a fan of someone you know. Call them out for stuff like that or say look. I'm a huge fan of yours. I've been to your show. I love your comedy but I don't really like higher normalizing these use could you not you know. Can we make sure that we don't share for your mother? I know it's your mother. You're not gonNA disown your mother. That's your personal relationship. But don't bring her to shows You know get her involved in your community and normalized that type of behavior so that leads to a really interesting question. Where do you take into account? Internet trolls are backlash. When you're thinking about writing a story yeah I don't I take into account backlash usually on the person that I'm writing about. Okay more so than myself. Like I don't really care I if I don't I don't care. I mean I've written critically about Logan Paul and Jake Paul who have like some of the most dedicated fans on the Internet. But I don't know who they are. They're these two huge youtubers one of them like film that dead body. And Oh God yeah anyway. There's like you know you're never gonNA write one hundred percent Positively about some of these youtubers. And that's okay but I think ultimately the youtubers respect that I'm going to be fair and the fans know that ultimately severe article so I don't care if there's going to twelve year olds that are in my mentions mad at some youtuber But I do take into account the harassment that somebody will get so for instance. You know I've seen a lot of stories where it's somebody with a really small following doing something bad and I don't always right about that unless it's newsworthy. Sometimes there's just you know how vicious the Internet can be and I don't WanNa throw someone under the bus who's ultimately kind of harmless. I mean. Sometimes people send me things where it's like. Oh this influence or did cultural appropriation or something. And I look. And it's some girl with eighty-five thousand followers and it doesn't seem like she really knows and it's just like I'm not the police of the Internet like alright about something. If there is a news worthy value I mean with with no job. She's so big. And she's getting such massive brandon and You know she was espousing lot of the stuff on her show Which I don't think that the media company that backed it new So that to me warranted enough. You know it was big enough to- sort of weather the storm but yeah but I do. I do try to be sensitive about backlash. There's one story that I've been going back and forth on for like a year that's I still haven't decided whether to write it because I'm not sure whether these two guys really. I know I know that if I write this story the Internet will destroy them and I just I don't know that they are really at that level that they can That they deserve that. Yeah must also be hard with tick talk especially and I'm sure also on Youtube where a lot of these people are underage. Yeah and they're like I mean that's what I feel so bad about Charlie. Demilio sorry grace. But she's like the big talker right now. This girl is fifteen years old. Because I don't know anything about take talk. I don't know Charlie personnel. There's also other people who I think Charlie like super harmless. Yeah but there's other people who are like. Oh you're kind of problematic but it's like you're also sixteen but it's like you have such a big following Switzerland. Yeah I had a flag on I was like twenty four and I wrote really bad things not bad like I would never want my readers that and see it. Well the difference is that you wrote inferior quality articles. Are you like liked outfits like now you were like you weren't making racist comments on your blog? No definitely not but I just I remember like said some stupid shit like stuff. I would never like condescending. Like annoying. Yeah I was just being a Brat I think there needs to be room for people to grow up and I think that that is totally fine. I mean I think that as a culture we're kind of like taking that more seriously now than ever just why. I think it's so funny for people being like quality assessment. She's twelve. It's like no but you know it's fine if I it's it's it's fine if if you You know follow someone and you and you kind of emission. The how to put this As a journalist I feel like it has to reach a certain newsworthy threshold. Not write a story about every problematic teen on the Internet like I said. I don't WanNA play Internet police. That's not my job. That's not what I do But I think it's ultimately up to the fans to kind of hold them accountable and you know a lot of teenagers have an evolution And that's fine. They have to go out in public. That's just part of growing up online now and that's something that a lot of kids. I think are learning I would say that like you know there's more conversation around it now. Yeah Yeah and these kids kind of know when they're doing something nutty like right because they get a lot of backlash from people in comments so they you know some of them still. Don't want the attention I think. Sometimes that's true but I also think on the whole comment sections tend to be so negative. So it's like having separate from like when you do something that really sets people off versus the day-to-day people who are just haters baseline negative to people who have a certain threshold of following. Yeah I know it's so toxic I think you just have to kind of like a good moral code and also I just. I try not to hold teenagers too. I mean I've seen a lot of kids that personally. I just report on. evolve drastically in in views. And they always swing back and forth about their beliefs and that's part of being a teenager totally. This is not on the outline. But it's kind of in line with everything we're talking what about Caroline callaway I got people are obsessed with her people. Also I. You've never written about her. I've never elite of plans to no I never. I know my colleague wrote a whole thing on her and she's been written about in the Times a bunch and it's not that I don't I I think she's kind of unique influence or that's been over covered by the media and so that's not very interesting to me like I cover stories that have not been covered yet and that are new and Interesting Carolina. Every person has written about her. She is a very symbiotic relationship with the with the press her press coverage over coverage like I just feel like why are we still talking about it but like it's also just like these people you know there's all these people are so dedicated to heating on her and it's like I feel like her? Narrative is also just overdone where I feel like for a while everyone was comparing her two and Adele when caroline ever scammed anyone like she didn't steal any money. She never saw anybody. She's just trying to sell her artwork. Let this girl sell her paintings. Who cares it was triggered by logoff? It was like she is a poor planner. Had DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR ABOUT. How big her conference could be couldn't pull it off. Katie topless at buzzfeed the only reporter that actually I wrote a good piece that actually interviewed the people that went and all the people were like. I thought it was great. Like I'm basically paying glorified meet-and-greet. That's what I got. Yeah I mean you guys are sort of like understand the implant world better. I think there's a lot of hate around influencers especially female influence. Can't I can't tell people what I do if I don't know them. Yeah I'm like I'm a marketing consultant and I think that they used his actual job but they like us. I mean I think that like she was this perfect kind of like vehicle to channel that hate into right and You know so. People are just dedicated hating her and because they wanNA hate influencers because they ultimately I mean it's kind of we were talking about this before the puck is it goes back to that thing where it's like almost one degree of separation. It's like oh so. This girl can just live this great life and sell her art. I'm slaving away at this crappy job like. She should tear her down. I thought another interesting narrative. I don't know if you saw this today. So not too. So who's at one colon? Call your girlfriend. Slow clapping for her on the subway when you sent me her story. I love a lot of her like it exists on her podcast or instagram at her thought process around what does she. Oh you as somebody that has an Internet following. And she hasn't monetize her in the same way that grace has yet to use you as an example like she's not living off of sponsored content. Yeah but she had a really interesting post where somebody asked her to create instagram highlights about the books that she reads and she wrote back to them and she was like. I don't WanNa do that. I don't owe that to you. And she said it in a different way but it was like you're asking me to do more work than I stopped creek asking people to do more work than they are already doing. Or something. And I was just like good job Amina. Yeah it's crazy and like you know you can. I is at her name wrong. I love it. She's speaking out against that because I think so. Many people expect especially women to just bend over backwards for them. And it's like. Oh you have this following. You work for me to go back to cal. It's like what does she. Oh you she nothing. Nothing and also like if you hate her. Go look at someone else's totally age. Why why make an entire like Dedicating also the whole scam thing just bothers me so much because I write about Internet scams constantly and Real ONES REAL SCAMS. And you know none of these people that supposedly hate scams are out chasing any of the actual. You know people that are committing bad acts on the Internet. I wrote about this account. Baller busters that calls out these course frauds and these implants are men that sell twenty thousand dollar courses and then what people and then twenty thousand dollars for twenty thousand dollars in these teenagers and learn to to learn quote unquote entrepreneurship? Oh my cousin. You see all these women getting bashed for selling three hundred horses and I would never buy either because I think they're dumb right but like smaller scale thing but that's the double standard. That's double standard. And you see it so clearly when you look at these haters like these these trolls and these Carolina Halloway like people that have dedicated their. You know dazed hating on killing how it's like. You don't actually care about fraud on instagram. You don't actually care about scams because if you did you you'd be holding. Actual you know people that are doing that stuff accountable and I. This girl selling like boo painting. I feel forty seen her art. I didn't even know she was doing our this wishy. That's the main issue monetize now Christine. I'm still behind. I only knew about. It's like you know like maybe the other person in Brooklyn like chief. Yes all her weird art do it. I feel so conflicted because on the one hand I do really like. I'm not above voyeuristic. -Ly like hate following the we already totally standing by to like just like watcher journey total but at the same time it's like when it gets to the point that you're quiet about go on. Yeah you're right about like that's the line for me. I think after carly came on the podcast it really not right but I would casually look at some going or reddit threads to see what was written. I don't think it's that bad compared to still read it. There are bad places on and it depends on the blog. Snark one and I don't think that's that out but I think it also depends on who you are totally. You know we're like no. They're not going after you that they are going after some people pretty hard and I don't I don't want to even consume this anymore. I tried to engage with Caroline. Calloway heater separate it. And it's just such bad faith attacks like I commented on one of Caroline Calories Post. I'm in this Vegan group chat sound like a lifelong Vegan and jazz. At my party. We had like nothing to eat chips all night. There's still drink. Yeah anyway but I'm joie chips and I will make sure that we have a Vegan thing for me is clock as Vegan. And there's a lot. Okay Okay Chips Glock. Something else Also Lake you know. I like in this group. Had there's so much Vegan Internet drama twenty four seven seven this group chat that basically we just like drop different Vegan. Drama Enin Caroline. Calloway got in trouble of course because she says like Vegan but I eat salmon sometimes curl. You're not Vegan then but whatever but follow things to pick cheese. She was trying to be Vegan. But I think like a lot of people can't do one hundred percent so I'm of the mindset that like honestly that's fine if you WanNa do that that's great. That's still better for the environment. That's still better for the animals like so I come into. She's getting so much hate and I commented on her post because somebody dropped in the group chat and he said like go give her some love and I was like all right so I just posted like stay strong any little bit helps you know as long as you're cutting down on me like that's a step forward or something right logoff. Okay got to like two hours later. There's this whole twitter threat and read it thing on like Taylor. Is Supporting Holocaust denial? Yup so I guess on a totally separate you know Caroline Kelly Post one hundred today. I don't like how am I supposed to follow. I follow for a brief second and I was like. Oh this is too much. So Lake on Yeah I follow her but I can't I don't because on some totally separate posts somebody had like a bad faith reading of something she said about Anne Frank where it sounded like she could have been referring to anti still being alive or something. It was something so stupid that ultimately kind of was not true but anyway I guess yeah and so then there's people being like and I guess. She deleted some mean comments on her instagram Patriots. Every right to do it's her page and they're like your silencing Jewish voices and stuff and I was like Whoa I. I don't have anything to do with this. I tried to respond to some of these people on this read. It and I was like hey. I'm so sorry if you felt like that was the case. I really just came to comment this Vegan thing and I'll delete it now no problem and then I see that they're like basically like making up stories about being saying I'm a bitch saying I'm like a cut rate Jia Tolentino which is crazy because it doesn't even have the same job as me like we're we don't. She's like a culture critic. I'm like a news reporter anyway and I started reading this this threat. And it's just this whole Cybernet. That's only dedicated caning on caroline and they post updates. Well those are those are pictures. I'm sorry I'm showing my phone extension. I thought she was painting with her boobs Easter Mint. Anyway these people are these people are like. I think it's like truly kind of at that point. You need to consider blake some therapy because it's not helped. It's really not mentally healthy to be so obsessed with somebody tearing someone down it's like classic troll behavior And so anyway that's the Carolina. Calloway suffered it. I. I'm pretty. Sure violates read it terms like This other journalists is potentially writing about it. She was like yeah. I think they blatantly violated terms as like if you WANNA flag that threat. It you do it. I'm not going to be held accountable for deleting their sovereign literally they hate on me forever but I just kind of think that people like that need to get a life okay. Let's take another quick break today. We wanted to tell you about a new podcast that we're loving called. Gee thanks just bought it so this podcast is right up my alley. It is hosted by author and Shopping Guru Caroline Moss so in every episode. She invites a guest to share a life changing products. That you didn't know you needed so for example. How about. Hand warmers the double as a phone charger the perfect spatula or full face. Ice Masks and some of our favorite people have been guests already. So folks like cookbook author Alison Roman. Pass podcast guest. Hit the PAO APU and I also saw her story that Molly Chen recorded an episode. That is coming out soon. And the PODCAST is brought to you from the producers of forever thirty five and so no surprise Keeton Dory from forever thirty five have also been guests. I love them so I listened to the Allison Roman episode where she recommended in. Nylon dough. Scraper you better believe I bought it. I mean I've never made though so I never would have bought it but now I'm going to make dough just because I got the scraper so hearing how she uses it for basically everything in her kitchen commits me that I needed it. I also heard there's an episode where someone has a forty dollar dupe for the dyson. Erap and I think I might meet that. Oh my God pleased when you find out what that is. I haven't listened episode yet either. Please send it to me. So if you love sessions segment or you're just an obsessive Amazon chopper like us. I'm pretty sure you're GONNA love this. Podcast the goal isn't to get you to buy everything but just attorney onto little known products. That guests swear have changed their lives so you can find G. Thanks I bought it wherever you listen to podcasts. And make sure to subscribe and also let us know if you try any of the products that are recommended over there and if we need them. It's such a fun. Podcast now. Back to the episode. Let's turn talk about less controversial aspects of influence. Somebody asked what is your take on. How influence our culture has changed the way we shop? That's so interesting I mean personally. I mean as somebody that purchase multiple Amazon dresses grace. It's address because I know I know we need to get away from university But no it's totally. I mean I think like instagram has totally changed the way I shop and seniors are part of that because I only buy stuff that influencers Promote now I do think influencers have a big impact. I think it's also like the way that brands can read target. You on your instagram. Although I have stop buying from sketchy Internet brands because I've been burned too many times. He no more instagram. I was buying all these lake in certain amount of jewelry and it was just like breaking bread. Yeah that's terrible. I was buying a lot of dresses from China. That was like this is so cute like summer dresses. This is so cute. Get there and it would be like made of a plastic tablecloth all only company. She and she she she. I don't know if it's on C. N. as H. I. N. I don't know that when it's bad on either by it I I only buy it if like an like an influence or recommends it and they do like a triable one that I trust like anything. Yes I bought UNLIKED POST. I'm down anything Kathleen Jennings beauty posts. I am in but a lot of influencers. I'm like okay. I don't WanNa see another post about your thirty dollars sweater. That comes into colors. Swipe up to by now but sometimes they do and I also like following people who are not larger influencers like when Olivia Mentor was talking about her target jumpsuit. Joining a target jumpsuit. Yeah like there's like smaller people who I think are interesting to find people who you either like really vibe with or have a similar body or coloring or whatever it is to you we're like you can basically just like us somebody as a proxy to try and really get that. I was GONNA say like a similar coloring or similar bodies like I know that like certain influencers like we wear the same size either by the same thing or I wear one size larger than them. So I'll ask by what they're wearing in one size or like another influence. Our would like dirty blond hair and blue eyes and fair skin. I'm like that make up. Pal Is GonNa look great on me. Well that's so my friend. Lauren is really really into make youtube and the problem with makeup YouTube. Is that a lot of the girls. First of all. Have a very different life than me. Because they're going to clubs or putting their makeup on for different things than me but they also like there's a Lotta blonde girls or you know there's a lot of things that's cool in theory but that would look terrible on me. I Yeah I have the same hair type of Taty. Us broke okay. So I honestly anything she does with hair. We both have this fine dark hair. I mean my hair's soaking wet. Now shut up after jarring but yeah. It's like her makeup stuff. I I'm like okay. I'm not gonNA spend an hour my makeup the way she but I got I as gift received the From a friend. The dyson erap the hair curler CA. I've been so tempted to buy it. So taty did a very negative review of it her first time and it actually may be grateful that I hadn't bought it myself and then I got and then I received it as a gift and I was like. Oh my God this is so nice like and I went back to her channel and she'd a second review of it and she was like look the first time that I did it. I was doing it all wrong. Let me tell you how to really work in the way she did it for my hair tape. It works now L. I feel like it has a steep learning curve. You are you bringing over what hair. Everyone's out here guys. Sorry I gotTa go do the dyson. Yes yes oh no. You have to like their party tricks. There is like a total method to it and when you nail it. It looks amazing. And that's why you need to find the people that are like my friend Lorna similar coloring to me so tell me all the Uber's that you follow so that I could go learn how to do my makeup. Yeah we this is off topic. This is funny because Becca. I was at Sephora today and I was buying a Charlotte Tilbury I pal love Charlotte Tilbury. I- Pallets I love them too but I've always just bought them online and ever so they have these like insert displays. They're really beautiful where they have like a models you can see with the look looks like but every single model had your coloring like Olive Skin Brown hair. Brown Eyes Charlotte. Tilbury actually more so than other brands. Always a model who has my coloring color. That is not very common and I was like at the counter at Nordstrom and she was like shade matching me and she was like wow. I've never nobody. Is this color and I wondered who? It's Florida it's funny. I love her too but I was just like getting so frustrated. I was like I need to see what it looks like with Blue Eyes and fair skin like I was getting so mad. I'm a lorimer person and sh- also same thing with the coloring. I have dark hair and light eyes but I recently got of all my makeup and I went to Credo. Beauty the like lenient before. Have you guys been there? You'll love it. Oh my God I love it and I was like I felt like I was starting from nothing because I like didn't have my products and I didn't have my staff and I'm like trying to go through and I found a couple of news sort of like clean beauty lines that have Yeah same thing. I saw the thing on the display and it was like there was a there was a girl with dark hair and fair skin knows. That's makeup line. I have I have my soap held at like I'm like above like lorimer. Porcelain Color. Yeah like in the winter. I'm like it's like looks town on me and so I was like I gotta find something. That's also just as like white but not pasty. Yeah and I found it at Credo. I can't remember the I forgot already. The brand names that are amass is wholly a- owner though it is I love Elliott Elliott. I mean I think that's it. Yeah I haven't had my makeup bag. I Love Ilya Scud. Yeah one thing that we are both curious about. This is a reader question but How do you find all these emerging trends and stay ahead just in time for reporting them? I feel so on the pulse of everything. Oh my God I feel like I'm locked. I get lazy and I. I definitely getting more competition in the past couple of years which has been good because there weren't as many reporters covering this beat a few years ago so it was like you can just sit on things longer and now. I sit on things and someone else does them. And I'm like fuck. You probably got more competition now. Everyone has like Internet recalled. Like yeah everyone has like every media outlet hired someone to cover my beat. Now it feels like and I'm like Oh my God it's kind of flattering. No no totally great. Its validates my beat. So that's great. That means that it may jobs more secure so true like yes but it also means that there's an audience for it basically so it's a good thing but how do I find things. People people ask me that a lot. I don't know I just spent a lot of time on the Internet and just see things. I'm sure you guys have been there. It's like you're just on instagram. Looking at explorer noticing things Alex something POPs up you go down a rabbit hole still lot. Yeah Have accounts amazing like multiple facebook accounts in accounts things like that? Where do you see influence or culture going? I mean I feel like it's such a new cottage industry that like yes telling me so I can take notes and make sure that I do it. Oh my God I know. Except it's like it's like massive. It's going to be ten billion dollar industry or something next year. It's relatively new industry. Yeah it is relatively new It's so funny. They made me for work recently. Like do this and it was like. What's IT influence sir? My mother found it to me. I was getting angry. That's my friend. Mom She's like cool. I got so mad. I basically copy pasted from this boilerplate piece that I wrote about like what an influence there is Not only because I I love my editor so I'm not trying to say it in like a shade way but I feel like people that asked that question in the year twenty twenty. It's like D- just asking it to try to make a point to make it sound dumb and stupid. Exactly what even as a yeah exactly? It's like so rude I mean I think what we're seeing now is like a movement definitely movement towards Mike. More authenticity people want less created. Stuff like they want to be able to trust you. also tractors that trend towards like micro influencers. Like not just doing. The brand deals with Brands not just buying out people that will have like a million followers. But actually working with people that are really gonNA move sales you know even if smaller audience 'cause they're tighter connections I also see a lot of the big trend now. Too is like everybody. Productized themselves like every influence or developing their own line. I'm going to be like working with Nordstrom on like a top line and then launching your own top line later but definitely I think like people are realizing brand deals can be very volatile. And you're kind of always. We were talking to Kate Kennedy about I really fascinated to see that influence. Our brains are starting to raise. Vc money is really speculative to where like some of it is more like brands and actually do have product already and like have that. But I feel like there is. Vc money coming in on the basis of just audience. And I'm really interested to see where it goes. Yeah Yeah there was a techcrunch article that like did a run down of all the BBC's but VC's are obsessed with the the they understand the power of this industry to and they want to get in there and they just don't really know where it depends on the company kind of what they're going to invest in who it's interesting because these people not as a blanket statement but you know they are marketing themselves as a brand versus a product. You know depending on what their job was before like great offer them being entrepreneurs but I think like I've seen some of them be more successful than others like Marianna Hewitt has like summer. Fridays is incredible. Brandon Lake has such presence and has really transformed things but I've also seen other brands like it's kind of like WHOA WHOA launch. And Yeah Yeah. Or they like partner with them like bad manufacture. Yeah totally where it's just having following isn't necessarily an indicator of being able to monetize it successfully an issue or branch being a I always say when people are like what's and influence are I say it's like sort of like a big part of it is entrepreneurship and you basically your own little startup and you have to be a business. You're you know. You're like a soup to nuts businessperson. You're you're running marketing for yourself. You're running Biz. Dev you're doing. You're running a small business And so sometimes people can scale that enter products yet out of it and end up hiring a lot of people and it ends up becoming a billion dollar company or whatever like Kylie But you know a lot of times. Yeah it's kind of thought out or it's they try to do these plug and play solutions where they just slap their name on some generic product and it just doesn't resonate. When are you GonNa want your line? Grace I'd be so scared I I'd want to have my following grow a little bit more before I did anything but I definitely want to have a skincare line someday. I would buy skincare line from you. I would I lie. That's like five years learn like fashion stuff to that. I feel like I have a collection with Amazon coming out in at the end of March. Doing a line of dresses only nightgown dresses. That are not rebuff. Somebody yeah amazing. I'll buy I'm excited. Let's take another quick sponsor break. This episode is also sponsored by night. Pillow if you've listened to this podcast for awhile. You know how much we love this pillow. We are both big sleepers. I need a solid eight. Ideally more hours asleep and I can be a bit of a Brat if I don't get a good night's sleep. This is a product that makes such a difference for both of our sleeper teens. I I am very jealous of people who can function on four or even six hours of sleep but I can't. I love my bed. I love this pillow. We spend a lot of time together. Yes we've been working with night for a very long time now and people always ask us. Do you really like it. Like what's so great about it and it is a little hard to describe it without like taking the pillow off my bed and just giving infomercial which I've definitely done when I've had friends over but What I love about it is. It's memory foam in the best way to describe it is. It's like a perfect mix of soft and firm so forms right to your head but then it bounces back if you move around so it never becomes a flattened out pancake in the middle of the night. And if you turn over it just re cradles your head so you're always comfortable. I really like that. It's not too tall of a pillow. It's it's like the right height and I also love that. It has silk pillowcase. So silk is really really good for your hair and your skin so I can help prevent wrinkles and fine lines and the other thing is with your hair because your hair doesn't snag on the pillow it makes blowout lasts longer and I feel like I wake up without looking like I have crazy bed. Yeah they also have new colored silk pillow cases. We've raised about these. You can use these with your night pillow or any regular pillow so I got the white ones and I love them so much. So if you're a skeptic totally get it. Beca was a skeptic in the beginning to It's hard to explain the magic but I really do think trying his believing and one thing I always tell people is it. Night has an amazing return policy so you can try the pillow for one hundred nights. And if you don't like it you can return it and they also have some other amazing products so we both really love travel neck pillow. It's the best one I've ever used. They have awesome. Silk Scrunchy is which I'm obsessed with and I think you're supposed to sleep in them but Ivan starting just use mine on the all time I have one in right now But if you are curious about night you can take twenty percent off your entire purchase at discover nights out Com with code. B O P twenty so again. That's twenty percents off your purchase at discover Nizam with twenty and also I know so many people in our community have tried and love the night pillow and I also saw somebody getting them as a holiday gift. So if you WANNA share your experience send us an email at bat on paper podcast at gmail.com or Diaz and we may read your pillow story in a future add. We want to hear about it. Yes send us your stories back to the episode. Can we talk about the subject that I'm most excited about? I WANNA talk about. Yes is absurd I did. I fell down a rabbit hole. I had I get into tick tock. Animals Oh yeah animals. I saw somebody posted a that. Lizardo Song of the boys song by Lonzo of Golden retrievers. And I was like I am all in on this. Do you follow the Hound House. No I don hypothe- for dogs and they're going to be a dog shows Da. I'm following the right now. Yeah but I got an undockings and then I've because the way that you browse talk is so different than the way that you browse anything where you have the for you page and it brings in the people that you follow and you can toggle it to just be the people that you follow. But generally like you're just being a creep and like cruising. The INSTAGRAM EXPLORE. Page is like the way that it's meant to be navigated. Yeah so you've got into so many weird ass rabbit holes. I went on and I was on for like a minute and I was like. This is so much we'll also very overwhelmed. insider or it's very self referential. Where like the songs are like there? You'll hear the same song nine million times or like everyone's doing the same dance. Where if you just like went on would be like one is. There's raise Like Madam have you seen the one of my favorite. Ted Talks ever this guy who did this to talk on like. It's like when celebrity strength. Chuck Todd Yes. And he's like celebrities during tick tock and they're like hey guys like how. Do you use this thing like you guys. Got To teach you how to use this thing. And everyone's just like staring at them. Blankly like yeah but there are some celebrities. Do love like I really like how into Tick Tock. Shack is and he's not really good at him hitting. He has a bunch of sons who I think. Maybe I'm seeing it on his sons videos. But like shocker spins son yeah that her. He got her and somebody. Oh yeah that's so funny. It's really funny just to see see shack. Who's like this big super rich super famous guide? He's like try to learn the DADS. You like what reason I love it. I know all the celebrities are so thirsty. Justin Bieber was the worst because like he got on there and was just like people singing his song dance to Yummy. Everyone dance to Yummy. Everyone was like no honestly it kind of works because I see a lot of people dancing to that song really. I never see it. I Lo- we asked making fun of it. Oh interesting oh I see girls dancing to that. Yeah maybe it's maybe yeah. Maybe maybe it eventually worked. Do you think brands need to be on talk. Well I think the space for brands on talk is through advertising similar to snapchat where because especially because it doesn't rely on a follow graph to determine the content that your feet it Yeah I think that there's dedicated units and I think that that's the place for brands. I think establishing a user account as a brand is pretty impossible and probably a waste of money. Have you seen any brands do it? Well not advertising establishing like an actual contact. You know out of brands I haven't really seen any that have popped in. You could say like news brands. Oh Yeah The Washington Post has done well. Host is very out there yet. But that's because they have dave who was like a vine start doing it and he's and Dave is like a phenomenal video editor and he's has zone sort of culture personality. Wait so what is the hypothesis the whole race Chris? Let's go I WANNA know. Anyway they gotta be my story Yeah let's rewind back to December twenty nineteen Would budget basically bunch? Harker has got together and got a mansion in La Which is a thing that you know. Influencers do like wanted to write about clubhouses for a while because there's so many youtube ones But this is the first big tech talk at one. There's also now they're like counterpart called the sway house which is basically a houseful of fuck boys and I'll but they're not like nemeses. Not dating is some people. Yeah House are dating house skies and also I think the people from the house are always at the hypo yeah. They're definitely like friends and collaborators. I would say it's kind of like yeah. I there's there's like the phase house which is like eastport house and then they had the clout house which was like for cloud gang which was a youtuber group and they were very friendly that we're losing grace at right. So what's the hype house? The hype house is a mansion in La. That a bunch of tick talkers. Live at and it's also a collapse group. So it's like the it's like a team ten was rain for it They're all paying for it. They're sitting around. Which is honestly really cheap like they only pay like eight hundred nine hundred dollars a month in rent. Why yeah so are only the people who are living? They're paying the rent. No everyone in brands were paying them or no. Maybe now this brand's definitely like furnished it. Yeah they they done. They're doing brand deals. I mean most of them got signed to dummies. They all have representation now I mean Charlie and Dixie resigned to UTA so that these kids are all IQ stars But I would say. Read my article on it because it gets deeper into it typos and guess. What was the first thing this Earth Taylor's article? Yeah but it's crazy because they're all under twenty one I think are most twenty one and under. Yeah the ones that are under eighteen. Can't legally live in the house so they don't but they they stay there. Sometimes you know with a parent or whatever. Yes but it's crazy because it's like the most famous backdrop on tech talk like I the bathroom. There is very iconic. Yeah they have this giant bathroom. That's like the size of apartment. Also it's fucking gross carpeted it so that whole house is so eighty at it. I loved like after after the story went up because it also green marble and it's tacky and semi green marble. I love it. Do all coming back now as a pillar not as a sink though yeah Some Guy tweeted like I know. We're all those like hideous boomer mansions are going to be basically leased out by the like the. Bi cancels are just going to be leased out by talk stars honestly funny true. Yeah but people like so crazy famous and even like Addison. I feel like her. Following has really yeah. She's doubled in the past week. She has a star quality to her. I think that she's definitely one of the breakout. She also she got a covergirl deal. Wow she's yeah she's she's and she's really tight with Dixie and Charlie who I also think I mean I think I think that those three might sort of evolved beyond the Hi Pal. We'll tell me what it was like to visit the house so it existed coming your literally started. Damning them like the launch was damning like everyone in the house. Okay and the MONTEK talker instincts. Graham you can't on Tick Tock mutuals So yeah so. One girl responded and then another girl. Put me in touch with this girl. Addison has the best browse I've ever seen. I'm looking at that. She's so pretty and her mom is really pretty. Her mom is kind of like her mama's might really hurt for mom is like Into Tick Tock Tuta. We'll addison got tick tock famous. Because she used to dance with her parents taught. Her mom does other dancers too but anyway To say oh so. You're dealing with just to get in touch with everyone which is like aggressively. Dm THEM ON INSTAGRAM. Feel high reporter. Can I come over you go to la? And you're like hi. I'm hired as well. I told them I was like I WANNA do a story on this because it was blowing up any time. There's something that reaches a certain amount of scale I want to read about it K- Also I noticed that there was like all of these other lab groups that were like I said I wanted to do a story on clubhouses forever. I've actually was supposed to do on this big feature on team ten but then they decided last minute. Jake Paul got mad at me and wouldn't let me in the house so I'd never wasn't able to do this story. Basically had all the reporting done on the history of Collab- houses and how it's been affecting La and just needed a house to peg it too. So I like Yeah I I went to the house and everyone was just like honestly they're also young and I'm so old so I really like. The parents are like in their late thirties early forties and I felt like I was related to them. So how? How long did you spend there? I was there for like the whole day. Okay and did you just kinda socialize and hang out and make toxin. I just hung out with them and talk to all of them and basically just yeah after questions so are their parents there most of the time. Yeah there's there's usually parents are managers around Do they live there? Some of them do the ones that are over eighteen. Okay Yeah but Yeah the parents were around And then also a couple of managers so it was. It's a pretty controlled environment. I mean these kids are young enough that it's like it's just like funny because now hanging out at houses. I don't know if it's Boring. It's fun with your friends but like there's this giddiness that they have just from like all being around each other and they're like flirting and one kid goes by the pool and they pretend to push the girl in and then they don't and then there's she's like. Oh my God like I feel like it's just like one giant Freshman Dorm Hall. Yeah that's what it feels like. That's that's actually like the perfect way to put it. Yeah yeah everyone's like new and nervous and but you're so high on your own energy and you're hilarious like you have all these jokes. That are funny. You're like or so amjad hanging out with energy. That like a doll. You lose again yeah. It's this nervous energy and this like like there's a lot of like relationship dynamics At play right in that house and so you know. It's like a lot of that kind of flirting but not flirting telling somebody to tell someone to say something someone stuff it. That's why I was like with the parents being like what's that like. I I feel like I relate to the parents more closer to my age. I thought it was so interesting. Have you listen to the Gary v interview with the whole family? Only part of it. I thought it was really interesting to hear just about how the parents are thinking about their children being so famous because I I need to go back and read the story. Apparently because I didn't realize that you wrote about what does it do to have so many as a kid and like how does it change high school but like I dunno? It's wild like yeah I wrote a story actually ever to feature for the Atlantic About what What it's like for parents when their kids blow up online. Oh interest in back in two thousand seventeen. I wrote that so it's so funny because now it's even more pronounced but it's about the parents it was all from the parent's point of view they navigate it. Have all these kids in the hype house? Have they dropped out of school? I mean a lot of them are over eighteen. Like I mean people. I think people think a lot them are younger than they are Like Dixie is out of almost out of high school. She's going to be going to college in the fall But Yeah I mean a lot of them are are over eighteen and they're not in college which is honestly normal for most kids in La. Like I mean. They're undertaking industry. I got that also just college in general. Why WOULD YOU ACCRUE STUDENT DEBT? If you have twenty three million instagram followers you know I think the millions have a different. They their parents seem more intense on keeping them in school like in having a normal life in Connecticut. Like they're not letting those girls live in the hype house there. They you know they so. I think that they have separate. Yeah set to some of the other kids but You know it's the same as youtubers and it's the same as viner's and it's the same cycle that's been going on And more and more. It's just it's just to a bigger extent. Have you kept in touch with any of the people who were like Youtube and vine hateful who then dropped out of it Yeah I wrote a future for New York magazine about This one youtuber. Actually that quit the Internet and then he ended up coming back. Do you think that Tick Tock will replace instagram? Or is there like a world for them? I think both I think that instagram and tick tock served two very different purposes right now It's interesting that you talk to them. All instagram will. You have to because there's no because of So what you know what musically got in trouble for was this culpa violations for having kids under eighteen part of the part of like the child safety thing is making it a two way opting for For Messaging so unlike instagram which is sort of more open and free willing like where you can message anyone pretty much unless they're accounts private Yeah there's not that option on talk so that's why message on their bet Yeah I think that talk is just a different type of outlet. I think it's actually more competition to Youtube. Okay okay because it's more of an entertainment platform but But if you look at the way tick tock is used in a lot of Asian countries in in India and sort of basically Asian countries and South American countries country basically countries outside the. Us people use it as more of a more of an instagram. More of a daily documenting your life and actually a lot of teenagers. Use It that way too. I think for them to really scale in America people are going to need to use it more as like a memory type making thing. Okay not just a place to get famous right because it's so much like dancing runs like I don't know if the talent for us. Yeah that's how it is now. It's already changed so much to like since like people. There was this whole movement in December. That was like bring back old. Tick Tock and I was like it's crazy. 'cause old tick tock is a year ago yeah but I can't even imagine what takes will be like in a year from now. Probably something different people. It's already evolving. Wait so I hear about from. Becca is the renegade dams. What was just because I wanted to learn the renegade down. She did she learned it but I know I mean I've tried to learn. I'm really bad at it but I just Did a story on the girl that invented it. Which is this fourteen year old named Julia in Georgia she created it on her own and really hasn't gotten a lot of credit for it so she deserves it. I'm very excited to reap up. Yeah I can't do. I don't have the short term memory for any of these dances may ther- I dance a kid so baby at like it kind of comes back to you. Well no it's just you have the brain developed like that's part of your brain do it but I had to watch a lot of. There's I feel like the renegade dance more than other ones. There's slowed down tutorials. Yeah I know it so all in my head. I guess I could probably do it from memory but I haven't tried to while I'm worried I'd like you know. Throw him out or something. What are your favorite talk accounts to follow? I don't know if I just go in the for you page like it's so funny. 'cause like following doesn't really matter on talk like literally until a few months ago. I would just be logged out all the time and I don't know I just saved funny videos. I like the ones that are just like the viral funny videos like some of these people are hilarious. That guy who does the videos where he's God created animals. I haven't seen that. I don't okay so Taylor. I'm going to start texting your tech talks controversial but I don't love getting animal content. I'm sorry no it's not animals. It's he's he's like making weird animals. No He's like it's like theorising Alike making like a horse with stripes. There's E-eh like funnier okay. I'll show you said after Okeechobee. After I know we'll like I have this friend that always I love birds. That's the only kind of I have a bird count. I Love Birds. I really want. You have a bird one. I know I don't Oh we know I don't know. My friend has a loose parakeet. That just hangs out all the time wines upsetting. I want that I think Bert should be loose in the wild but they shouldn't be in houses. Well some some birds are domesticated and but I know I know. I don't have a bird because I can't take care of my schedule. So is it just. Parents are all birds really longtime will sit has two things so the parents can allow outlive you. Yeah like a lot of these birds of a really long time which is really sad because people get them as pets. They don't realize that they're gonNA live tiller seventy there's also a huge resell market for turtles. Oh do they longtime? Oh my God. Turtles live forever. My one of my best friends hasn't younger brother. And he had a turtle and then he went to college and their mom was like what do I do with this turtle and so she felt terrible but she brought it back to the pet store where she was like. I don't want to have this turtle he's like. Oh it happens all the time we we resell them because they like seventy years at like. The only people who want to have turtles are like teenage boys. I had a pet tree frog growing up. Oh I like amphitheatres and birds which is so weird. But I'm not like people send me dog and cat videos like and then I see a bird unum like so bird bird. Tick Tock thing okay. What other quarters of Tech tonkery and to That's a good question. I may entail. I just like go on the for you. Page gosh go down. Whatever random like thing man do I love the Street style videos in Japan. Have you seen those no? I haven't gotten into Japanese. Looks Good Okay so basically the way they film them with like these cameras and the whole thing is to film it as a stocker for like so. It's like they film these talks and it's like a person's zooming in on someone like from afar as they walked down the street and at first it'd be like other just filming random people on the street like a street style thing but then I realized that. No it's just one account documenting and it but it's meant to look like a Paparazzi kind of stalker video interesting. It's really funny. So Gosh but their outfits are amazing they look so put together. It makes me feel like such a slob. I like makeup Tek. Oh yeah that's funny too. I like that too. I've got to spend more time on to helmet. We can we just like. Let's switch gears again. Yeah what are your favorite journalists to follow such a good question? I have to pull up my twitter list of all made us. People always ask me for recommendations and I finally made a list of all my faves. It's called Internet people on my twitter. Is it a private list? Though it's public I made a public because I wanted to You know like I wanted people to be able to follow all the people that I love So it has ninety two people on it and it's just like yeah it's like Katya top list is someone that I loved. She is referenced her from Buzzfeed Right. Yeah she's from bus. She's very weird on the Internet but I just think she's like she always finds things that I'd never seen before. I also love Coyote Checa he writes about like minimalism and design and like the Internet. Okay he has a book out that listen to their eight. I mean your profile co to Go to lists wait. Yeah So it's just like it's like. Amanda has my colleague at The Times who also writes about culture Abio Heiser at the Washington Post. Max read magazine Joe Bernstein Kevin tastic. Yeah I like a lot of business. Insider rip people to There's this girl. Amanda prouty who Writes about influencer stuff? Amanda Mall at the Atlantic is so good. I love her. She writes Tiller. Am I gonNA hang on twitter? You GotTa get on twitter list of people. It's like totally free from politics. Like it's mostly free from politics. I'd like almost successfully blocked all politics feed every time. There's a political term. I block it because they just otherwise it overwhelms your fee. They can take all of our. I'm trying to do my job and I can't because flake you know yeah twenty four seven so those are an you know if there's any good follows the tweet at me but I try to follow a lot of people and just make less got. That's smart yeah okay. How do you manage your Internet time? How do you manage boundaries literally don't have any boundaries? Okay don't manage it. Well right good answer. I don't even know I'm like on my phone. I wanted to write this story like last year. That was like why it's fine to just be on your phone all day. It was like this is just you trying to justify your own rains relationship with your phone. That's fine yeah seek help yeah it. What's your hair routine? Somebody else asks this totally random. Oh my God I can observe frame. Looks Great and it's so kids grow is not derived with wet hair and it now looks like she's ready to go. All I want is like giant hair giant Texas hair like I don't have it as you guys know the I can easily have giant Texas hair but I want sleek pretty silky hair like yours. You always away. Her hair is air. Drying right now I was making hate my life. It's it's too. It's too silky and flat. Nobody's like it's very fine straight and I love it to be giant in curly anyway so my routine is that I basically try to airdrop as much as possible but I flip it over blow. Dry upside down. T's the shit out of it. You're a teaser. I T's it like as big as I can get it and I have the big sexy hair. Volume is So I use that and then I have the dyson curling set now. So I've been using. I gotTA do some Internet research on that. The thing is is that it takes like ninety million hours to master. Oh I was not able to master curling my hair with the flat iron. Okay I is this easier or harder. It's harder oh God but But once you got it. It's good for your hair. I mean the other thing. Is that like fry it with You know like my curling iron shirt. So yeah just want curls. I've thought about getting a perm and my hairstylist. Don't mistake what's one thing that people don't know about you because they want them to know. Oh that's a really good question. I just would want people to know that I'm a nice person. And that I really earnestly like tried or apply to everyone I can and I really don't block people very often. I mean sometimes if I'm getting a lot of spam or like backlash on something like random that I'm just tagged on. I just blocked but like I really. I don't know I feel like because I've gotten into like Internet drama. It sucks because like anyone. That's gotten into Internet drama at like. It's there's like people can kind of stumble upon it and think that you like this way or that like I'm out to ruin the morning toasts and I hate everyone related to it or something and like I literally. I'm not like that and I actually don't have any IRA beef with anyone ever. And that's why I was so shocked. Talk about Taylor. I literally don't and I don't even have anything against like fans of things that I write negatively about. It's just like I just I just want people to know that because I think people think that I'm like some snarky me in person and I'm I'm really really like you're not no and I don't like people like that IRA before we knew your Internet presence. It's crazy but Feel Free Shot. I also love feedback omay stories so Where do people retouching? Where do people follow you? They should we translate into desperation. Minute Yeah I was going to call it that but yeah my wallet expiration minute. You've sat through his interview with us in hung out with us now. We want you to help people where they can find you what they can do for you. All things Find me on Instagram and twitter N. Tick Tock if you wonder what are your handles. I'm at Taylor. The wren's everywhere test at Ti Laurean Z and and just like message manny timers or. Follow me. I love feedback. I get a lot of lake. Sometimes I read a story and people will be like I really think he messed this up and then I ended up like writing another story about that. You know says love hearing from people. Please follow me and Yeah I don't have anything like super special to promote Other than my article so just your articles are pretty special. Follow the Accu. Go do it do it. Thank you Taylor. Thanks all right back. Let's talk about obsessions? Yes I think you'll be interested in mine. I don't know if you already have one. So got this little silicone disk. That has a Suction Cup on the bottom. That you put in your sank to clean your makeup brushes okay and so I saw Emma Golden. Who's her instruments Emma's thing? She's in Dallas obsessed with her. She had like a full Matt. One on her story and she was raving about it. But I don't want such a big thing that I then have to store. I got this travel sized one it. I think it was five dollars like it's no money and it's this little disk and it has different textured areas on it. Yeah I don't know what the different textures or four but I think there to clean different brushes. I kinda just rub my brushes around soap with it. Yeah so I use soap and so I I hope and then the other thing. I did which I don't know if this is how you're supposed to do it. Then towards the end I kinda just like dump some my cellar water on the makeup. Brush to and swirl it around to get the last little bit out. Yeah this thing got my makeup brushes so much cleaner than I've ever gotten. It's like the texture. It's like the little group things I have this big Kabuki brush that I use to put on my foundation. I just like never feel like it's quite all the way clean. I'd use this morning with this brush pad thing like I knew all my Gosh I am. I'm intrigued but I have. The I have the beauty blender blender cleanser and is like this black soap that you rub your brushes over to get them clean and I love that. I guess my brushes so clean. I feel like if this is something like a foundation like not like a shadow brush but something like has stuff deep in it. Yeah it's like it gets it like this is what it looks like. Oh yeah that looks cool. It's only five dollars. That's amazing so we'll Lincoln in the show notes because it doesn't really have anything descriptive in the name. It's called brush cleaning MATT SILICONE MAKEUP CLEANING BRUSH SCRUBBER MAP portable washing tool cosmetic brush cleaner with Suction Cup for Valentine's Day if that ever sounded like an Amazon description that's that's an Amazon description. Sure is so. I'll Lincoln in the show notes but yeah it was a five dollars. Well-spent that's a five dollar purchase. What is your obsession? So last week I interviewed Jenny Han At Sephora Sephora I went we went live on their instagram and at that and first of all Jenny. Han is a complete and utter beauty. Junkie if you didn't know this we were swapping beauty recommendations and after the The live I did so much damage at Sephora like I had a gift card and I spent that and then I spent a couple hundred dollars of my own money. Oh yeah so I I'm GonNa tell you about a few of the things that I've tried a bunch this week in love like this is take this with agreements not take my beauty reviews very seriously. These are not ready for blog reviews. One of them is In it's on my blog but they're things I'm testing and really liking so far so the first one is It's from a brand called Huda Beauty. It's there with lipstick in gossip girl. I did review this on my blog this week. But it's like the perfect casual pink lipstick. It's not like a lot of pinks. I think are either too bright that you'd only wear them like to a party or they're like Brown and like I don't like a Brownie Brown kind of pink like I. It makes my teeth look yellow so I love that. The next is the Mask which I bought. Everyone's obsessed with that table thing. Which is things I bought and liked my favorite person on instagram recommended Amazon. I need that I feel like every time I get my makeup done by a makeup artist. They always have that really. They just launched it the watermelon mask. No this is Oh sorry this is I i. I said the wrong brand. I'm so sorry I love mask. It's the TASHA won. The title one is the one I buy. I do like the one two. That's what I was using before. Oh okay I got confused because I I use little Moscow law. I have three of them. I love it but Tumble Lick was reading and raving Tuchel masks. So I fucked up. But it's It's really Nice as light is lately at like forms here. Like almost like a sheet mask and it's really hydrating It's really good I again. I need to try it for like a couple more weeks before. I have a solid opinion so that Oh and I also bought this thing. It's the Bio San's lactic acid treatment for bedtime. And I love this immediately the next day or if your skin feels like very smooth like it makes a noticeable difference in texture doesn't smell bad no you can smell it afterwards. Because I feel like a lot of the lactic. Acid stuff smells kind of like rancid. Yeah yeah the good gene smells a little rancid castle effective. After this you can smell. It doesn't smell that okay And then the thing I feel like worse about but it actually does make a big difference is the Jillian Dempsey gold beauty bar. Do you know what this is? Is it soap grace? No it's a gold. It's like a gold vibrating device for your face kind of like the new face or something and suggests purely Jenny Han she she goes up to the Sephora beauty director. And she's like I need this gold bar and I was like listening to this conversation. She's like my makeup artists. Used on one half of my face and then showed me the difference. Unlike what's like the side that she did and how it looked and she's like my whole right side of my face was lifted where my left side was just like Blah and I got it? I've been using it. It makes a noticeable difference in lifting so use it like around my jaw line when I want to like deep puff little bit. I also use her on my brow bone to like lift things up a little bit. It's two hundred dollars. I don't feel great telling you to get this. It's awesome. I feel like you need to post a tutorial on your instagram story. 'cause I can't quite picture I will how this thing again. Everything is you do Jedi said. Do half of your fate will again. I want to caveat that these are not formal beauty reviews. These are just things. I'm trying right now and really like so far but the Huda beauty lipstick. I can highly recommend. It's great it stays on. It's the perfect shade of pink. It's really pretty. What on Instagram? You did a thing this week. I made a new account guys so follow my new account. It's called DEM's Love Dunkin. It's just basically of the Democrats Holding Dunkin. You know that Elissa master. Monaco told us that State and local races are just as important as the presidential race. I need I need you to extend outside and to candidate. Duncan I'm working on it because literally it's only Elizabeth. Warren I went. I was on a search. I was trying to find Bloomberg. Some of readers sent me Bloomberg. I think it's like twenty years old because he doesn't have any grey hairs but I'm trying to find more diversity to feature there because right now I've got like Elizabeth Warren. And who's the other one somebody else? Oh Biden Biden likes Dunkin a lot. They're both like really easy to find. Bernie I would think Bernie as like a New England guy would have more Dunkin shots. Yeah but it's my fun little project. Okay I don't even know why I'm doing it. It's so pointless and silly but I love it well. A lot of things on the Internet are pointless and silly true so mine is the financial giant so I talked about their podcast. My obsession a few weeks ago which I'm still obsessed with but I also started following them on instagram around the same time It's not small like it's not like a niche it's being discovered but it's like a mix of productivity tips and things about finance but. I just love their whole vibe. I just I. I really appreciate transparency about money. Thanks I like when people openly talk about it and I don't know I'm just like I feel like they're really good addition to my feet recently. I'm GONNA follow them. Yeah what about reading reading? I'm finally back in like a good groove with reading. I finished the Glass Hotel which to be transparent. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was beautifully written. It's like a fine Interesting story because it starts off with this woman disappearing than it takes you through this Ponzi scheme and then like you're also like like seeing these. Two kids grow up in Vancouver. So how does this all conduct? And it does connect quite beautifully. We were considering as a March Book Club pick and I don't think it's a book club pick because I don't think there's enough discussion around Beck is GonNa read it next on because we only have one copy I really I really enjoyed it and I think that the author is so talented then I read to thrillers so the first one was genuine fraud by e lockhart they. This author also wrote We were liars is just like we were liars. Gutted me years ago it's so good It was like one of those books that you got to the twist in your heart stops. This one was pretty good. It wasn't as good as we are liars. The next one that was from the underlying team they sent that over. Okay the next one you guys. It was my book of the month book. And if you listen to this podcast regularly and you hear as we've been talking about this book but it's you are not alone by Sarah Panin and grow Hendrix. This is the best thriller I've read in so long like I stayed up all night last night. Finishing it I am just so happy. I haven't had a book like like I mean. Think about the other books. They've written the wife between us and An anonymous girl. It's like that it just keeps you up. I loved it so much. I'm like I feel like I'm GonNa have a reading hangover now because nothing is going to be as good that I read next but it was so good. I think I need to read that next. It's so great and I don't know if you're GONNA like it. I'm like having little stress that you won't like it because you're not isn't thrillers as me. But it's also like I feel like there's a lot of thriller angles that are really common. Like the I guess the trope would be a better word to say and this one. I hadn't seen anyone do it. Okay it was great. I'm excited how about you so I finished house of Earth Fire. Which is the first book in. Sarah J mosses new adult series the series called Crescent City and that was a contender for a March book club. I mean not really it was until I received it and realized it was eight hundred pages. Oh that's right. We talked about this last week. We can't make you guys read an eight hundred page book and I think it's like it's a pretty niche thing because it's I guess it's not Sifi but it's like it's fantasy. Yeah which I'm apparently really into. I would never six months ago told you that like I was really into fantasy books but apparently I am because I've now read all of her books and I've read like thousands and thousands of pages of her books in the past three months. You share have anyway. So this new series. It's adult not young adult. There's actually less sex in it than her other series but there's definitely like just like more adult emotions and language. I guess So last week I was pretty skeptical about it. I was one hundred and fifty pages in and I was like. Oh it's just starting to get good grace. I'm actually really glad that I wasn't into it at first because it didn't feel my life and I didn't get into it until Friday night and then it stole my whole weekend because I was so into it. That's the best feeling when book just takes over your weekend. It was so good. Yeah so yeah. I mean if you like Jason's other series. I think you'll like this. I would just say give it like one hundred fifty pages because it's confusing. I Yeah Okay and then once you're into it I like yeah so then what I'm reading now. I'm reading. This book called our stop by Laura Jane Williams. This is what I'm GonNa read Max. Yeah it I'm loving it so it's British chocolate in our one day in December club episode. I told people what my favorite chocolate books were British bookstore and I asked for recommendations and a bunch of people a bunch of our listeners. Who LIVE IN THE UK. Suggested this one and it's been out in the UK for. I don't know like six months or so but it just came out in the US this week so people would read it. But like I couldn't get it so I- preordered it on Amazon's got it. The first day it came out and I started reading it right away. It's so cute. It's basically this girl. It's actually it might be book with like the main character that I've like most closely understood related to like it's just all of the references are so current but it's basically about this girl who she lives in London. She rides the tries to ride the subway train every day. And this guy places a miss connection at about her and then it's about them trying to fight each other. Oh that's so cute. It's really cute. I'm really excited for this. I think after like a really good thriller. It's nice to follow it up with like a fun. Like cute warm light hearted book. Yes so I'm reading that I'm really into it so far and none of those. Wet your whistle. We are having our February book club next week. And we're reading followers by Meghan Angelo. It's so good. It's going to be a really fun conversation to. Yes so it's about told in two timelines one of the timelines as in the present about these two roommates who live in New York City and one's an up and coming writer wants influence her and they end up getting a reality. Tv Show and then the second one fifty fifty years in thirty forty thirty five thirty five years in the future and it follows Basically in a somewhat just hoping but could happen world. All of the influencers live in a gated community outside of La and their broadcasting their life all day long. Like the Truman show spoiler. I am no longer and influence or I mean we don't know yet for thirty five years and it's kind of about how those two timelines tied together and yeah it's it's really good. It's like soapy and interesting but it also has very interesting raises really interesting questions about privacy and about social media and about reality TV And so yeah. I'm excited to talk about it. It's a really fun so pick that up and if you would like more of US join our facebook group follow US INSTAGRAM. Batum paper PODCAST. Leave us a review and you can follow me on Instagram at Beckenham Freeman. He couldn't follow me on instagram. At Grace Atwood and my blog is the stripe dot com. See next week by.

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MBW 720: Microsoft's Riding Mower

MacBreak Weekly

1:53:31 hr | 11 months ago

MBW 720: Microsoft's Riding Mower

"It's time for Mac Break Weekly Rene Ritchie here Andy Nakas here. We're GONNA of course. Talk About Apple's big announcements last week. W W, D see what could go wrong, are we? PC worldwide. Do we need apple silicon? And why should we call it Apple Silica plus a look at the new Air Kit? For? It's mind blowing. It's all coming up next back. Break Weekly. Macro quickly comes to you from twits. Last past studios stay in control when it comes to your company's access points in authentication, last pass makes enterprise level security simple for your remote workforce checkout last past dot com slash twit to learn more. podcasts you love from people, you trust. This is tweet. This is Mac break weekly episodes seven, hundred twenty recorded Tuesday June thirtieth twenty twenty. Microsoft's riding mower. This episode of Mac Break Weekly is brought to you by Caspar Casper is asleep brand that makes expertly designed products to help you get your best rest one night at a time get one hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper Dot, com slash Mak break and using the Promo Code Mac break. Out. It's Divac. Break weekly the show we cover the latest news from apple and it's going to be a really slow couple months. There's still a lot to talk about Rene Ritchie's here from I'm more great to have you back. Miss say Elliot I haven't slept in your exhausted. Aren't you? Bet You are I bet you are. Christmas in in June and it. Just it's so much. It's like all the presents are open, and I get to put the Lego together now. Yeah, yeah, no kidding Andy NOCCO. Also here good to see you Andy! Elo We thought we had Alex. he bailed at the last minute. That's okay. Cause you to get to make it comic book, Central. Guess whether Alex is at an undisclosed location maybe right where Johnny Saruji was last. We allowed. Here now, but okay okay. So? Which one of you wasn't here last week. I forgot. I I was I was hearing. Alex wasn't here so okay. Good all right. I Know Lori was and lorries taken all of this on Sunday. She was on twitter, which was great. That was a great show. Yeah, well, you liked it because it was all apple I heard from a few people. I would have liked it regardless because I like those people yeah and. I did hear from Dan Patterson. Who Said thank God I didn't want to hear any Cova News and I didn't hear any covert news. It was really all about the candy, store. Or the fruit company depending on your. Week same thing with android. I mean just happens a couple times a year. That's exactly what Jason Snell said twice a year. It's all apple time and there's actually you know. I didn't WanNa Kinda still thunder from this show, either but kind of lay. There's a lot to talk about I decided today. To play devil's advocate. Because I ca I. Keep trying. I tried last week with you. Guys at tried Sunday to say okay, but what's the negative on this transition to apple silicon? And play the devil then if you're in the advocate, be the advocate. You'd be okay. We'll on my left shoulder the devil, no, that's Andy on the right shoulder so I have negative street as excited as I am about apple silicon I, do wonder. If. We're. Haven't we been in a post era for a while now, and is it really? Does it really matter I think ultimately I wonder. Does it really matter what chip you're on what even what operating system you're on because I see a world increasingly that operates off data and programs in the cloud on clients that can range from a game boy. To invest tops in client and. You know for instance and I've been saying this about windows for a long time. The next time a business buys a computer probably shouldn't buy a windows ten computer. They should just buy something. They connect to Windows ten in the cloud and run their APPs up there I i. it was a huge benefits to that maintenance operations. Security on and on and on the only negative, the only downside is. Local data if you're living in the cloud and the cloud goes away, then you. You kind of have some problem. Just explain why in Adela is CEO Microsoft now Nazi bomber. Exactly and and you know. We talked a lot on Wednesday windows weekly about apple's announcement because. And completely, coincidentally, Microsoft's closed all of its stores forever. Makes her end mixer and I think it's a Microsoft is increasingly focused on exactly the scenario I just talked about they. Windows is nice offices. Not Cut McNealy east. You know it's always been. It's always coming, but never quite arriving Scott McNealy would talk about the thin and Larry, Ellison we talk about the thin clouds, and the early founders of Google and we're slowly getting to the point where the actual cloud works enough to make it a non horrible experience locally. Yeah, and also with Microsoft you see them. It was it was it was that eight year period in which they decided? They didn't know what they wanted to be or they didn't. They didn't want to admit that they actually like wearing ties. You know you you know that. It happens to like so many people somebody men and women were. It's like wow. I'M GONNA. Buy this rock and roll. T shirts like which I don't wear anymore because I feel like I. Don I just don't want to wear them anymore, so you saw Microsoft feel as though Oh i I'm I'm Gonna I'm GonNA develop a smartwatch and I'm going to develop like a consumer. Have! A special version of windows that works on an ipad sort of thing, and it took them a while to realize that their reasons why they have the market share that they have, and it's because they don't know how to be Apple. They know, but they're no. They really know how to be Microsoft Yeah, so the mattress store was always very very odd sort of choice for them to make because it was. It was such a brilliant choice for apple. Apple because they are, they are a place. Where if you're in a mall, you'll by the sort of stuff that people in malls like to buy in addition to being a service center, but for Microsoft it was like, we really want one of those two, please. Can we have a riding MOWER I? Know that we don't I know that. The neighbor has a big law and we have a small one, but I really WANNA riding mower. It's really long. Hours. That's really true. Think it's differentiated, though is that. If you are something and I totally believe you have the same vision of mobile endpoint. We're all GONNA. Have Little Marbles or mother box in our pockets that authenticate us you know with biometrics connect to the cloud, and recreate our computing environment in a are or opportunistically with whatever hunk of glass we happen to be near with any sort of input method. That's available but I think there. There is going to be at least you know. short-term decade long divide where some people don't care at all. Where all of the operations on that data are completed. They're just as happy for Google or Microsoft to do it on. The cloud is the are for it to happen anywhere, and there'll be some percentage of people that want that's. That's still want control over that data and want. The, more private data acted on locally and having cutting silicon in iphones and ipads and Apple. Whatever you know, the next generation of products will be a competitive advantage for them, because be able to I actually was thinking about that last night. I thought you could build I kind of had this. Notion of it was a FI story. Almost shouldn't everybody every home. Every person have secure enclave. That's stores everything they do, and that is somehow online doesn't matter where it's hosted, but some could be in your closet, but somehow online and accessible with all of these edge devices that we are eventually going to be using because that's clearly what's happening. You just described it with a watch and glasses and not devices. We want to be able to access our data everywhere, but we want to secure. Private enclave and it even goes along with his vision that timber. Bernie's Lee and others have expressed. To that maybe we should have control of our data and then sell it or lease it or allow somebody. They always do that as in euro secure enclave. But. That doesn't seem like much of a role. Here's my problem. Apple just announced the newest Chinese thing I've ever seen I love it. It's the it's the equivalent of Princess Madala starship. You know with Apple Silica by Alex Lindsay Yeah. It's beautiful I want it, but they made this thing in Eero. When you know, we don't really need starship anymore because we got teleportation, you know. quite though I still being spent about the galaxy. I think that I think you. You hit on the head earlier that it used to be that we would think think of computing in terms of mobile and mobile and desktop or mobile and not mobile. Let's say so meeting that the things that are designed to be carried in your pocket more on your risk or a tablet. That's so easy to carry around you carry it even if you don't need it. Versus a something runs a desktop operating system be at a really really slim notebook, or a really really powerful desktop now, however, in the in twenty, twenty and twenty going forward. There's the third category which is I. Don't care. You know where and those are the people for, and that's why I think that apple put so much not only so much development, but so much focus on in the in the their announcements week on Safari, because basically of APPs that run within a browser are the king of. I I don't care computing. It does. Your basic biscuits and gravy computing where I to get my. To do messaging I need to get access to some sort of a powerful, but not necessarily a hammer of gods, powerful sweet. All that sort of stuff is done really really really well by anything that can run in a very good web browser. This is why this is. Why so many old computers have a great lease on life. Because used to be, you'd say Oh, we'll all installed Lennox on it, which doesn't put quite so many demands on it now you might put lettuce on it. Just say all it has to do is. Is Run run fire Fox or run a chromium based browser, and it suddenly a perfectly usable laptop again so I think that that's something that apple is very very wise to keep focused on because as soon as they see that the I. Don't Care Computing category to while they're just gonNA, use chrome, and that's about it That's when they lose. The attention of that's when they lose the attention of their users. That's when they lose the ability to sort of project apple specific enhancements to their users as well well, and of course Apple silicon will have amazing battery life, and has a great low power curve as all all arm architecture STU That is you know maybe. I just feel like apples. Apples designing a Ferrari and we're all getting bicycles. It's it's just not good. With stadium or you look at all these technologies and it's like Yes for like eighty. Eighty percent good enough and I think it's going to take five years to maybe iron all that out. And in the meantime, apple will have their own silicon. They'll be designing exactly what they want and they're gonNA. Make sure like when you look at I forget who posted. It might have been D. H. H, but they were posting the benchmarks for browsers and thanks to the stuff that apple built into the chips to do javascript acceleration it radically outperformance, getting another one and that's. Apple in client. Ryan. And there is a market there, and I guess you know it's kind of the same market It's just a little bit of a different form factor as the laptop market, so yeah, and they're in a way, really your phone and your ipad or thin clients in a lot of the uses so Yeah, I, just I I wanted to bring up the one negative I really saw this move to apple. Silicon is transformational. For Technology in the computer industry. Actually not for technology for the computer industry, and then it hit me. Maybe, there is no computer industry battery life on your on your thin client is like there's all sorts of really compelling feature. Is that once you control the silicon you can like? They have their own eight to sixty five encode decode, and that means that when you watch Netflix Apple TV it just lasts longer and is better process than it is. All of those things I still wanNA computer with apple, silk. Hard drives. A hundred tariffs. We don't we don't know. Can you stall Lennox on this like? We've heard that? You can install like no longer signed versions of Mac os and that means like. If you put it in reduced security mode, you can go in data minutes slow the unpack that one because that's interesting. Okay, so we saw. Of course we saw Lennox running in emulate. Saying that the new apple hardware will not require a sign operating system. So, there's two mos what there's too when you get it. You'll be able to choose between two MOS the first mode, the default mode the modem, going to call it from mainstream users runs exactly like an iphone and an IPAD, and it can run iphone and IPAD APPS, and it's just total security. It's it's. It's exactly like the IPHONE security model. You can though go in and change that setting to reduce security and that disabled system integrity protection and a bunch of other stuff, I don't think it's essentially called Hob. What Microsoft does with secure boot on windows, and what Google does with secure boot on a chromebook, right? Yeah, it's the only difference where the. PC's external. And chromebooks, you can turn it off. It's a little tricky out. CHROMEBOOK PC's you can turn off and BIOS on many PC's. You could never do that on apple, right? You couldn't install your own arbitrary operating system on apple hardware. And then it got complicated with the T to, and then you had to boot into get rid of SIP, and it was a whole complicated thing, but it was a hobbyist thing. And now you'll be able to do the same thing. It looks even more easily theoretically to a duel. Mac Lennox machine. So, we don't know, they did say that you'll be able to run like a versions of Mac Os at Apple's longer time, but they haven't mentioned anything about any other operating really. Exact Opposite Direction. They're going with the IPHONE, isn't it? But but didn't. They didn't say specifically mentioned. relation of Lennox installs. They showed that relation but Yeah hyper visor. And maybe maybe it works. I don't know it's just what we haven't heard anything yet so those. Bring that up. Stressing on. Talk. There's a whole session on apple silicon, and how secure boot works and the two different security modes, and the also this really cool new restore process where you no longer have to hold down those keys or try to remember what those keys are now. If you hold down the power, key all Taichi, it will give you a menu. Hallelujah shoes which boot option, but also it has a conceit a hit, and this is something I. I'm wondering about for the Portland's I. PORTLAND iphone to or Portland. Whoever makes a phone? It's got a hidden recovery partition so even if you annihilate the drive you. The normal recovery partition it's got a completely sealed secure, little tiny instance that it can use to recover the entire machine if it needs to. That's cool. I thought server. So you've watched all, have you watched all the sessions? Most of I'm doing them in order of priority holistic prioritization. So I've done all the apple silicon ones I've done a lot of the interface ones I've done a lot of the ipad Os one them starting on the watch ones. There's so much to unpack. There's. There's so much goodness and. Lasts on twit with Jason. Snell and Dan, Moore and Laurie Gill. Isn't this a better ww? DC It this way. It's so much more inclusive. Anybody can participate. I think so. It's a particularly because I. I think that it also gives apple more I it's it's less of a distraction for apple now because they don't have, they don't have to get the entire. Dog and pony show running for the circus tent up and running for an entire week of their schedule. It's more like well this person. This team is completely ready with their content, so let's just have them. Do all of their sessions right now? Three weeks in advance there in the CAN, and now they're free to do. Do do with actually being paid to do. actually making sure that these features that they just talked about actually worked by by September and it's it's always been a big thorn and people side to get these big circus sorted things running the the the the effect on productivity that effect on schedules, its considerable and the fact that they keep doing them shows you. How important is that they the how important it is, they have these regular events. I. Have to say now that when you talk about this boot. This is a perfect example of why leaving Intel is a good thing because you really were defined somewhat by the requirements of the Exit Essex, chips. As to your boot process now and to work around it. I mean they work. They created a whole day made and stuck in and charged us for all t to chip just to provide some level of security process, and now they can do literally anything they want. which could be good or bad, you know. We've had time now to absorb this We did MAC break weekly pretty much the next day last week, so but as I absorb this. I want to reiterate I feel like this was very good news for people who love Mac. Yeah I I'm I think this is part of my job to point out like Oh. Do we really want a desktop operating system that locks you out a lot of the things that make the desktop experience? Oh Valuable! That's my job, and I, do sincerely feel those things, however I'm capable of feeling multiple things at the same time. What and what? I'm sorry, just completely point but it's also one of the things that one of the advantages of having depending on your where who stats you believe, less than twenty percent or less than ten percent of the market. Share is that you are completely Microsoft has. Has Desktop. Computing covered anybody who needs traditional desktop computing. It's covered. They have that option available, so you should, you should now feel free as a as a as a manufacturer to say, let's go a little bit nuts. Let's push the. Let's push the envelope a little bit more so that people who are using MACs for specific reason because they've looked at the ecosystem of does and decided. That's not for me can get some absolutely unique vantage the that come from A. A company that's not only developing every scrap a code that's on this thing, but every scrap this inside this thing so I hope that apple goes I, wouldn't say nuts but I would be disappointed if they went if they did the switch to a whole new architecture, and they didn't take advantage of all of the freedom that they have now as engineers to develop a computer. That's exactly the way that they think a computer around. Yeah, what are we giving up? And bootcamp besides camp, and maybe not boot camp. That's well. No, so I. Don't know if you saw John Gruber had craig. Yeah Yeah and they talk specifically about what he said was like hobbyist features, but that boot camp was not surviving the transition in the future for that kind of stuff is going to be virtualization. Yeah, and they said it'll be just as good. You won't need it, but of course. People who like to run bare metal, so yeah, so if windows are like and some developers loved the Mac because they could run UNIX and Lennox and. And, MAC OS and windows all in one machine as any a lot of people, windows is not relevant like. If you're on chrome, os or you're on mcelwain, it's not relevant, but for other people. It's an absolutely have to have so they're going to have to. The same way like now gamers just like the other Mac book and they have their gaming PC, they may. Do other things more on their gaming. Yeah this. We have people who are older who grew up through the floppy disk wars. Remember, remember when they tried to give three and a half inch floppies, we said no five and a quarter or I we had. The we we have to understand that there are people that are saying that pave I I can buy an eighty device that fills in the gaps that my my two thousand dollar computer doesn't have and I don't want and just as you said Renee I would much rather buy a three hundred dollars to seven hundred dollar game system, console game system to do the gaming I don't care that that that this platform is not necessarily good for gaming as for what we give up, I'm still concerned. That apple's going to lock. Lock things down more than I would like. I'm still concerned that if I have if my favorite CD ripper is a open source project that has been updated since three years, but still works perfectly fine on a machine that that will accept that. Hey, look I trust this APP and I own this computer, so you're going to run this APP even if it means my doom I'm concerned that we're GONNA. Lose some of that power I. think that's just I. I found less worried about it today than I was after. Let's say our. Eighty one of watching videos, but I'm still something the semi back the back of my mind. Well, it's interesting for instance. This alternate reduced security boot. One of the things apple called out. Was that for those of you who can who needs certain kernel extensions? That were no longer going to allow because that's an. That's a real insecurity. That's the hell out of keeping it. Yeah, you could do it in less secure boot, and you can boot your own kernel extensions. It's that kind of thing now saying that for now, but it doesn't courage me a little bit. Signed right, so that's the only concession apple. I understand that apple is facing a world where there's really two threats to US privacy and security, and they've decided to double down on both, but there's a consequence to doing that which is freedom. So I understand. They're trying to balance those. Dueling priorities, and they're probably going to come down on privacy and security, because that's what most people want. While like default like if you're smart enough to go in and turn it off, and you probably understand the consequences of turning off, and that seems to me like a really good user user interface balance so when percent? You talk a little bit. Rene about The changes in big Sur on I'm more A lot of the concern, try again trying to bring up the the concern or the issues. Please worried about now that I've done cheerleading for about eight hours on this stuff. There are we don't criticize Leo. They can't fix it okay. True and and I will say again the minute they ship the I. Would, it looks like maybe I'm accurate. Thirteen inch macbook pro with. A apple silicon I will be in line to buy it. I can't wake, but there are some concerns. Everybody has all along been concerned about the melding. Of IOS IPAD OS MAC os, and this seems to have been furthered in some in odd ways like ipad Os is more like Mac os Mac. Os is more like ipad os read. Those tea leaves for me Rene. So the thing that that struck me when I was talking to people this week. Is that apple I think a lot of US view these very differently, especially twitter, because as much as I love twitter. It is very loud, but very niche. And a lot of the concerns that twitter brings up. Are things like Oh, this silicon is becoming similar, but you. Operating system components are becoming similar things about the interface layers are becoming similar, and when I talked to people at Apple. They don't look at the products at all like that like those are little. Lego blocks for them, but they're still building. Different Products over them. Them and not the least of which, because both of those products are billion dollar businesses, and until one of them starts to slide. They don't WanNa. Lose those billions of dollars that they get from both of those revenue streams, but I think moreover it's like what we saw and I. I hate to go back to Steve's truck. Analogy, because it's you know it's. It's labored in so. So many ways, but with the trucks are super popular now and in part because people started adding car lake amenities to them, they became more comfortable, started using the same component, so they became easier to manufacture, but we don't look truck and say Oh, it's got tires and an axle and a steering wheel and these kinds of seats. They're merging with the car because on one side. Side you have the SUV on the other side. You have optimus prime, a wide range of these things and I think to apple. That's how they see it. They want badly efficiencies that come from having all the same components for these things, but to them they're still building the IPAD car and the Mack truck and they really don't understand why. We keep giving them static over it. It's more. It's more being worried than anything else. And as the more I think about it. The more I realized that a Lotta. My concern is that I. don't see the same sort of delight from developers. iphone developers and watch developers have a certain amount of delight and coming up with something interesting and coming up with something that's unique i. don't see the same sort of delight universally in the Mac community. I'm sorry. I'm going to walk that back as a half step I'm saying that once we if we encourage people to be iphone developers that then transitioned to Max. If that's what happens I'm wondering if we can convince iphone developers to say no, no stop stop. Don't just use extra screen real estate. There were opportunities here for creating amazing Mac APP that are just as exciting as this wonderful iphone APP. APP that you started off with, and so that's my concern that if apple even in even without intending to send the signal that if your hip if you're new if you're wonderful if you're cool, if you WANNA change the world, you're building a MAC ski. You're able to get an IPHONE APP, and now it's easy for you to actually can make backup to sure if you want to. Kinda won me over. Messages Right, that's an incredible endorsement of catalyst as technology, because that is the most important now for up probably like you can argue safari, but just got out of usage not. And that's one of the things that keeps people when people talk about the ecosystem there. They mentioned messages about all of that and they're at the point now. He's certainly weren't three years ago. Certainly two years ago this year they're putting messages in catalyst, and that sort of thing I look for because it's not word, it's like we're confident of technology that we can finally give you sent with lasers. And But wouldn't it be more significant? At least from my point of view, to create a version of messages for Android, rather than version of messages for for Mac I think that would be the most that would be an important step for the APP for the entire platform and also. Busy making time. It's not in their business interests. They like this I know there. Making I have to say they're making A. For a gated community. It's really nice. Will also say that there's things apple does really badly Internet services and other platform. would be both of those sets. Look at windows. Music, the music is fine on Android, but. It's best in class on android and I tunes never was, so it's. Apples, also they have a business model based approach like what like this has to add to our money, and or our ecosystem does, neither and I don't think people would pay subscription price. They bundle it with TV or something I. Don't know I'm with you. Andy, because I use Andrew, but yeah. Outside North America people don't care about this job. They don't really. Yes. That's actually a bigger problem right? A lot of what apple has been doing is to appease to appeal to other international markets. That's gross. Its line and it's hard to be what's APP all also this this is if he time to put lots and lots of money into developing a messaging APP with end to end encryption, yeah. You might have to Redo it. Now now we have to put some back doors. Yeah, yeah, you may have to do that over there. So Big Sur. Looks more like ipad Os. couldn't help, but notice Jason Snell observed macworld. Those touch targets look very suitable for touch so funny to me because I was watching everybody on twitter, and it became like a Rohrschack test, because everybody who believes that the IPAD and the Mac are merging so low. Everybody who wants a touchscreen, Max a look. The targets are way better bigger. That's a sure sign that it's going to be a touchscreen Mac, and then the people who just can't wait for apple glasses or like. Oh, look. They took all the sharp edges. They know Yar so therefore. This is part of our. Reality. and. Then other people are like. Oh, no, it looks more like an IPAD. They're finally bringing the IPAD and Mac together, and then last people like I. Just I just want Os ten bucks, and you get off my lawn. was just like wholesome spectrum of. So! What they wanted I? I don't think touch screen Max. Shipment heartbeat is like Eddie like member Steve Jobs, said no small tablets to shave their fingers down. Nobody wants that nobody wants to. You want an ipod. Nobody wants a pencil nobody and then like Eddie cues like Oh but Steve. Like, we could get a lot more. Oh, okay, great! You guys go! Up. You're fired, but that's fine. I feel like I feel like and one of the things apple. The burden apple is going to be on these new apple silicon macintoshes. They can't. They have to be redesigned right. You can't just ship. The macbook pro thirteen in the same case with apple silicon, nobody will. Lot Yeah. It'd be an easy loss to take that. You need to do a new design. What a great time to do touch! I just want face ID well. They'll definitely do that, right. I'm not I'm not so much excited about touch much as I'm excited about a an IPAD pro that I, I had pro form factor that runs Mac os because. With a with being able to run to to try out so many different windows, windows designs never never enough that got me like hooked on windows, but the, but when my Samsung sends me like a windows, ten tablet that looks looks in plays exactly like an ipad meaning that when I just WanNa, comic book reader, it will just be a comic book. Readers something. I just want to toss in my bag and uses a book reader or toss my bag and just uses a movie reader, but then when I really needed to be to run my desktop APPS, it's there as well. That is an amazingly compelling vast factor. Now you're! GonNa get. I mean. They said that you could rent a west. APPS ON MAC OS, but if it probably goes both remote, yeah. That's a that's going to be really interesting. Tear down when we went a whole. Bunch of engineers who do not work for Apple. Try to figure out what is actually physically preventing a Mac from running on an IPAD pro hardware, not that I'm not talking about. How do we jailbreak this installed Mac os on it, but we I'm really keen to find out the answers the question is this simply a dogmatic question of we don't make Max that look like ipads, or is there well here? The problems we were run into. If we try to make an eight twelve based MAC inside like really really super. Super Low Ram in zero. Exposed lanes are the two things. I'd have to fix right away. Yeah, but still. Right away in the developer kit. Isn't it Yeah a little bit. Isn't that exactly right? That's exactly what they didn't sixteen gigs Aram and ports. But by the way I think that was too hard for them to do so it's conceivable team is really good. It's conceivable that they could have a a very smooth gradient from the. Start the watch all the way up to the MAC pro, there could be a very set of family of SOC's. People because some people issue you mess. OC means no discrete graphics, even at the highest, and that's the beauty of it. That's one of the reasons that's one of the great benefits they're going to get. It explains why they thumbed their nose at Invidia for so long they pushed metal so hard. They struggled along with his Vega crap. Because they knew we're going to be doing GPA US and you know we talked a little bit about Gamers gamers all. They're never going to be interested in apple silicon, but wait wait these game companies and the gamers see what kind of GPS apple can put together during Tony Frame per second fortnight. Yeah, I see no reason why Apple. To assume that apple doesn't have equally amazing GP capable and also imagine a like. They've put so much money into not just the Mac pro, but the concept of the new Mac pro and the ability to for example if you have Apple Mac and you do a lot of final cut pro work and you're like I'm gonNA, add. Accelerator to it, but if you do something else, maybe there's like a dedicated math, accelerator or audio engine, accelerator and sort lose the concept of what a gp you is, you bring home your your superlight, twelve inch, macbook arm, and you sorry I can't say arm anymore. Apple Silicon, and then you plug that into whatever the DOK thing is, and suddenly you're driving eight. You know nine K. displays. Its is ludicrous. What what you can do when you start controlling it onto looking down, yeah. It's great and again. It's happening at exactly the wrong time because species are dead so I wish I wish they'd done this ten years ago. They'll have a good. They have good ten years before This really hits, but I I honestly think that we're gonNA live in a different world with eating well, it's there. There's the other classical computing known as boring computers. There's there's a reason why boring fleet style cars sell. People Boring stuff. They don't care back. That's not what apple makes they make the. Oh, no, they don't. Four is understood. I thought you're talking about like windows windows tile. Honestly think windows even has much Let many legs too I. Think Honestly That's why such as you said. That's why such runs Microsoft it's. It's going to have tool to me. Glasses absolutely at least for a while though it's hard to make. But I can develop right now. on vs code running on a server on a clay. You could do plenty of developed you don't. There's no. What's changed? Is it used to be? Somebody would sit down at their computer. That this is it and everything would be there, but now we can see. We have many computers many places that we would want access to that stuff. It doesn't really make sense for. Anything to be located in one spot I. You can run busy. Calcutta cloud LaPorte. We have we have sinking, but thinking everybody tries sinking. It's kind of you know that dropbox kind of that's not. That's not the future the future is. A single source of truth successful from all your devices. And there's probably was doing much computing. You're absolutely right and that that's why Microsoft is as invested so heavily in virtualization to make the hardware irrelevant, but to make sure that their software remains completely relevant. When you're when you've got a company that had needs five hundred five thousand seats, and you're Yukon to them saying that here, but by by our servers instead or better yet by access to our cloud, our cloud, a power instead we can add you can add ten thousand seat says whenever you want, and plus you won't have. You won't have uses were able. Able to screw anything up beyond the ability of a remote administrator to put things right again, so yeah, it's it it kind of it also makes me wonder I. Don't think I saw a lot. I don't think I saw any news about macrumors ization not that this is a big deal for apple. They've got every other. They've they've got a roadmap and. That's that's nothing more than than a detour off the main road map, but it would be interesting if apple's simply said that be, we want the we want the Mac of an ability and a mixed os or mixed MIS mixed desktop sort of shop, and if that means that we will be able to we will allow people to at least by seats by virtualization licenses for Mac Os then, so be it. That would be very very interesting to me. Was this is before wbz apple rolled out a bunch of education updates, so they typically get a bunch of stuff out of the way and one of them that I thought was really interesting was google like. They previously had multi user for IPAD for schools, and it turned out that some like some people didn't even want that, so they have a new ability. Where you just pick up an IPAD, you do whatever you want to do, and then it just blows your session away. The next person picks up and it's a whole new clean environment for them, which again other systems have been. been doing for years, but that's literally. You're thin client there. You have an IPAD. That's very capable. That can push pixels around like nobody's business, but it's completely ephemeral from one student to the next. Yeah, well, that's what happens right. As that's clearly future. I know nobody. Everybody's going kicking and screaming. Saying, but that's what we got away with with away from with one person. Isn't ambien computing. Jarvis Friday. No you don't care where the Corey I'm asking you just do it for me, right? That's what you want an apple. Still Carson saying well apple could sell secure boxes. Yeah, but they don't need to be a computer. Apple could have a very good busy, shouldn't they? Shouldn't be apple probably will have a very good business. I! I'd say in twenty. Thirty selling beautiful. Gleaming chrome secure enclave boxes that you put in your foyer. Or you look at the three things that Tim Cook is actually willing to talk about which probably means that the most important things that he thinks that people need to hear about Apple. It's a are in Vr. It's ambient computing and it's Automation and all of those things are what we talk about. We talk about the future of computing. It's things doing stuff for us at our command and popping up things for interact with win, and if we need them, yeah. it's it's very telling that one of the what I think is one of the best technology that apple introduced in the past ten years. back to my Mac is kind of fell by the wayside, certainly not a priority It's mostly been rolled into features that are kind of invisible in other parts of the experience when you get to the idea of at. At does it doesn't matter where you are in the world or what device you're using? We are going to do all the back end stuff to make sure that you can access your files back home or back in the office if you want to, we will make sure that we can find that connection if you want to. run a run a mirror desktop. Device using right here and right now that was so such super powerful stuff, and I used it all the time. Admittedly I used it on a hack and Tosh del Norte, but still I. It's it points out that apple at some point had that discussion internally and decided that we would much rather take the feature. Much ask ourselves. Why do people want to go back to the MAC, and if at all, actually it's mostly files, great will make it really really easy for them to sink into cloud, and do they want to actually have open up their own their their desktops from the okay well. We'll make sure that there is some cross device compatibility that goes on and we don't. We don't the idea of having a fixed piece of harbor that is running or able to be woken up from sleep task toward network twenty four seven is not the most elegant solution to what we see as a problem, yeah! Really interesting all the time. Let's take a little break, and then we come back there. You guys have been busy. I've been relying on you. You. Guys I've been watching some of the developer develop re stuff, because basically actually arcade for me yet. No see I'm doing stopwatch. Kula! The coolest stuff is. It's like I've got at least three things on my list that why the hell was this not in like the the two hour long like like Keno. Really, this is the most awesome thing ever good. That's what I'm going to ask you about when we come back from the break. I've been watching the boring stuff swift, you and you know. I mean you want to code? That makes sense right now. This is kind of stimulate for years. All I did was device independent code command line, maybe a little tiny bit of gooey. The didn't look like anybody's real gooey, but I'm much I much more interested in that because that's the pro. The point of coating for me I'm a hobbyist is thinking about problems and solving them and code, not the painstaking, and now that I'm doing it. I, really remember how bad it is drawing of screens and dragging. My God shoot me now. It feels like ninety percent of Mac code these days, and certainly of Ios Code is gooey designed. but I like the logic underneath I like the model I. Don't want the view or the view model number two years ago when Craig, Change Dot red to blue and every developer in the room and. A lot of that. So that's what I'm watching and I realized. That's the bitter pill to swallow. If I WANNA make an IOS APP, but I do love the idea of making something that will run in the entire apple ecosystem I think that's interesting. It's a fun project for me, and so that's what I'm watching, but you guys watch the sexy stuff so I want to know what the future is going to hold Rene Ritchie Andy and go we are talking about. Well, you know we're talking about the good stuff. The juicy stuff our show today. Thank God I had a good night's sleep. Last night I showed it. They brought to you by mattress. If my mattress could speak, it would be moaning and groaning. Get off of me. Leo You're so fat? 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We freaked out. All, I'm GonNa say is that twenty? Twenty is the worst movie I've I've seen so my God I, know I think. Is going to snap his fingers any minute now. Oh It'd be a blessing at this point in my, if you can find Leo, Matthew Panzer Rano, re tweeted something on the. Kit Four point -O Demos that shows a visualization of this new technology. They have which basically pulls down everything from apple maps, including all the look around features along with the point cloud of the vicinity that you're in all the information you've acquired about that the senity and orientation of your device and everything and it just it. It's mind blowing. How step by step a year after year they've been rapidly expanding a arket Sure for obvious reasons, but just the the the amount of stuff they're showing off. This year is ridiculous so a video, right? It's a twitter video. Yeah, he re tweeted it a couple of days ago. How come they are? If you can get past all the bread, a our kitten time line air kit for I do not think it's possible for anyone who doesn't hoover up. What's going on in a are to internalize how wild this is! This is the metaverse building equivalent to. He just tweeted out. Explain. This is A. He's re tweeting Joe Bernstein. and I take it. This is the apple presentation you were talking about. Any of this complexity. Just missed it because it was only. Attract. Let's see. Here's the video map data from apple maps around your current location. Part of this data is a localization map that contains feature points of the surrounding area that can be seen from the street. Then with the localization map your current location and images. This is not a arket. That's the rest of it is all are. So you mean I can take all this data. That apple's been generating for years for maps and San Their version of what do they call it? They don't call it street view, but around look around. And it's now available as data for my augmented reality. Yes whoa. That's why. You don't make apps but experience. That's why he's talking about the metaverse right, yeah! So. What do you think's GonNa Happen? Grand Theft Auto Cambridge Massachusetts. I hope boy that well the metaverse implies that you would be able to put on your apple branded a are glasses and be in Cambridge, right and I could go and meet Andy at the MIT flea market, and we could wander around right. It would it would be. It would be an interesting application to say that I. Don't know if all I have to do is transmit the part that is andy and I I don't have to translate the the park behind him, but we're not talking about chat here that that would still be a really inefficient way of doing it. I think this is one of those really great features where. The. Opportunities for a really really clever developer to make something great with it, our power enough that you just go ahead and do it and then let those let those folks creates opportunities like a matching an architectural APP where you want to figure out like what will, what will happen to shadow lines if we put this building here or what? What will happen if I want I, I'm considering visiting this location or having a music festival in this location at this time of year, and also I've access to to. Fifty Years of daily weather data for that date in Dayton the year, and now I can actually figure out not only figure out what is going to look like, but also modeled with traffic flow is going to be as to what actual consumers are gonNA benefit from it beyond look around. Anybody's guess I think I think that some features are there for this is such such an interesting we've. We've spent so much money. Developing this data set it will. We would not be realizing the value of this data set. If all we did was used to enhance maps, we want to enhance the entire platform and the only way to enhance the entire platform is to make a new resource available to developers, and that's why they're making this data set available so Do, I need a new IPAD pro with light are to take advantage of this. I know developer I don't, but I would. Probably it would work better. It's bad well. It's going to be in stages like right now. It's on the IPAD pro because they needed to get out into the world, and they showed some demos now with the new depth API and with the new heat map for measuring depth all the things that you can do with that and everybody presumes that's coming to the. The iphone this year and apple glasses eventually, but just just to make Andy's break weekly experience complete. You could imagine like Polka. Mongo or wizards united where you they are actually interacting with the real world. It's not just like a digital thing. Happen stanchly layered on top of you, but it's running around trees. It's climbing buildings. You look up and there's the hogwarts dragon curled around the you know the bank. On Your street down the corner, there's King Kong on the empire. State building because I've always wanted to see king on the Empire announced that two they announced that you can place objects right now with fourteen in what they call points of interest like like major geographical locations around the world this is interesting. This is essentially a heat map that shows not temperature adepts closer to me. It's cooler the half the way. It's hotter and that is a smooth gradient that is very, so that's why you could play in totally excluded, you can do full object collusion with exactly that map. Wow, that's one of the biggest thing on the big steps forward for a are is for the ability. Ability for okay. You're Pokemon to walk a chair and the chair is covering up where as as a a colluding a character that or an option that's supposed to be walked behind it. It's really really cool. It was it was very very cold. Say everybody gathered around. was a three years ago four years ago. WBZ gathered around this strangely. Tech would bring texture table. Play, Ping, Pong ar experienced in. Don't don't move the phone off the table. But it's it's going to be this. This is a great look forward. Looking for when we do have the sort of a hollow lens style wearable ar glasses where it s not just projecting a small piece of information. That's useful. It's not just displaying a widget. It is actually doing magic leap. SORTA stuff because that's when you get things like I'm going to put a display on that wall over there. That simply reminds me of like when someone is online or Knox I. I need to talk to that person and that's when you get interesting I will say hippie like, but really still very very interesting interfaces like like what Google showed off at Iowa a few years ago, but never delivered on saying that well. Yes, we. Yes, we could, when giving you map directions that you're that you're following your walking. Just give you like floating arrows to go around things, but wouldn't you rather be? Be like following Fox that just look the Fox's, and and the Fox's waiting at the street corner and sitting and cleaning pause because he's waiting for you to catch up, and then he's going to actually go left to show you the keep following the Fox. Isn't that more interesting because this it taps into taps into software that that's in our brains. That is not that is pre language. You know there was a time which? which we didn't have, turn left at this nets next intersection. Make sure that you're on ELM street, but simply that. Oh, well I'm going to I i. know that there's a fire over there and I want to go to the fire, so I'm just gonNA walk until the fire is getting bigger and bigger and my mind's eye. That's not just cute. It's not just the the ultimate caveman skew morphism. This is making things that are. In things that you you can infer how it works that you're wired up to simply understand that this is what you're meant to do. As opposed to learning a clever new interface, so this is why this sort of stuff could be a quite transformative, so you're going to point earlier Leo Andy's point now. The reality kid has also added video as texture so you can do things like place a screen on the wall and watch TV in a are, but also mapped the screen to like a an object when have an animated face or map it to? To water like a river and have an animated Texter, so it just ramping up realism that you can deliver and also the the opportunistic interfaces we all see in the movies right like the screen just appears in front of him, and he taps it and the it's really the gestures that are doing the work, but as a human we relate to whatever the physical object is in front of us, so if you're just mapping video of an interface and reacting to what we're moving our hands on, just makes that experience nicer, and that's again shipping in Iowa's. As I. Run this Augmented Reality Vase all over this chair. Howard to be. So Is Apparently doing ray casting I don't see any lighting effects, but at least it knows what carries. She was a kid. Yeah, there, you go now. To the to the surface of that just just like you're, you're running that around the area. That's pretty and the and the objects moving This means I would guess that light are in every future apple device. Yeah! Yeah, yeah I mean. It's privacy respecting to which in ways that regular cameras have been problematic in past, which is a nice benefit for apple, because yeah, lighter and radar are really important technologies. Because you can't, it's. It's very clever to say. Hey, get this this cameras. This device is a cameras taking pictures sixty frames per second. As soon as people say camera taking pictures. They don't want any part of it particularly. If you're in the room that, but when you say well, no, it's actually radar. So, it's not actually seeing anything. It's only taking really really high depth like distance measurements, unless not unless stop mentioned that if it's sufficiently sufficient technology that's actually mapping. Everybody's faces as they go win, so they're getting much much more information than the pictures, but but you know what I mean. Here's the face mapping Demo, that you were talking about, and this is more than meam. Oggi's right this you could, you could map it onto. make What is that snapchat filters? Yeah, wow, wow, that's exciting. I must say is a breakthrough technology. I. Think I think it's more. It's more one of the many things that are impressive for this are when it becomes stuff like A A. A when it becomes like a plug in for movie, not not even final cut, but just I want to make a movie, but it's only me and my two friends, and neither of them are dogs, ORCs and I really I really need a dog in the scene. Let's just make. Let's do motion like on the fly motion, Kenmore Co, that this character right? That's the because I keep coming back to how wonderful how incredible it is that you have all these youtube creators that are well in their twenty s or in their teens who grew up with non linear editing and a high definition camera. On their phones, and just like I learned how to write because I had access to word processors from from basically the first time I tried to use the I tried to learn how to write which met which made me which which gave me certain advantages that other generations didn't have once. We get into this sort of thing where now the generation that the General Z. Double Zero whatever they're calling it these days this generation. Generation says whenever they have creative ideas that involve actually I really want the story to take place in space, but imagine that that the Mongol hordes our space conquering race, and and ten minutes later or twenty minutes later just by downloading some three d imagery or building themselves their story that they're telling us is taking place wherever they want it to happen I'm so excited to see happens when that becomes casual and free. Yeah. What else did you see that you like? Fill me and. Save Time. One of the one of the biggest things was just. There's one I think there's only one area in which apple is objectively failing. They are not doing the job and has reached crisis point, and it is wrong. They aren't moving making visible steps to fix it, and that's the APP review process. Making it so so paik and so nope, we'd made this decision now. You're powerless to change it. the they made some announcements that are basically saying that number one. If we have a problem with your APP, we will still allow you to do bug fixes, so we're not gonna say that security problem. A security problem has to stick because we don't. Don't like the way that you're doing it using a controller and number two. They're giving the they at least giving lip service to saying that Now we're giving you more opportunities to debate. Why we why we made this Y. Your apps not be affected by this change and also not only talk it. It's almost like looking at the a change. Change to the constitution, saying that not only that, but you could also argue that this rule itself is bogus, and you need to change it and the idea that they're. They're even putting that into like a public. A public statement during ww see shows that they are aware that they've been. They've been hugely dropping the ball on this and that they need to. To make changes, I thought that that was one of the biggest pieces of news from ww. DC because that's that is the thing that whether developers complaining in public or complaining and private when I'm talking to friends of mine. That is the one thing that makes my jaw drop every single time that says wow, you make one of the most important There for people that can, T can say this. You're making one of the most important and popular APPs on the Mac Platform and apple is just screwing you around, and you're giving. You're being given no no indication that they're even thinking about this carefully that they're just simply a low level person. They saw like Red Light. Come up ought panels. They press the. Button and that's and that you can't do anything about it, and it's always shock me every single time. I am so glad to see that. At least we'll see if this actually actually pays off but I'm so glad to see that apple is. As regressing, they should probably not be screwing for developers quite. Fully as they have been in the have a chance to see it, but I think it was my changes to the people said were positive coming out of double WBZ. What's the purchase? IEP Out purchases people seem to I didn't have a chance to follow up on it, but some people seem happy with some of the changes that was. Precipitated by the fight with base camp and D. H. H over. Hey, or is it just? Exacerbated by like I think I. Think a lot of things. We've had enough. Also we're stuck at home for months. The entire world insane and like an APP. An APP review letter is just too much at this point. That's IT I. Think. That's true. I think there's so many things in our society that have been bad for so long and I'm not making any false equivalents about where we're always. Happy! It's done every last. We don't want our Google TV raising his prices. I thought twitter explode this morning. We've just had enough as a society. We were saying this floor. No further you will, you will not make us pay anymore. My kid is playing taking clarinet lessons Second House all day, I'm going to be mad at somebody and Apple. It's going to be you. Yeah I did see that somebody tweeted that his kid had taken up violin lessons in his apple. Watch said I hear a siren. All. Stettler Mortar Waldorf APP. For the Apple Watch somebody said that they've been working on the soap absence before covid nineteen. Apparently, they've always into hand wash then. Why is there no brush your teeth that I mean I give Kevin Lynch a huge amount of credibility I mean. He was the flash guy for a very long time. But where's my brush? Your teeth APP I. Agree can only be a matter of time. You're happy about sleep. Though right Mike is so high about that yeah! I I heard. Some people are complaining I myself included initially. That doesn't do as much as other sleep APPs like other sleep APPs. We'll show you a light sleep. Heavy sleep, rem sleep, but when I asked about it, they said like they have no found that they have no understanding how they're getting those numbers. They don't WanNa. Put up on anything that doesn't. because. They know they'll get all sorts like everything will be scrutinized by every scientists in the world, so they want to make sure that if they do ever offer that, it's like those numbers are provable using his scientific models today. Don I'll tell you the other reason. privacy the one of the so the Guy who came up with a lot of this is Philippe Kahn formerly of Borland Turbo Pascal. The guy invented the smartphone camera. His latest business motion XS all about accelerometers and taking data and apply and using his data sets for machine learning I talked to him on triangulation a couple of years ago when he was just shipping. These and they're sold under the CERTA beauty rest brand. I think these paddles are going to your mattress. I've had them for some time. That that gives you all of that information. Deep sleep light sleep Rem Breath heart rate you know resting heart rate. All of that stuff and I've had that for some time I've also had this or a ring which? Know a little bit more because it's right on your fingers, so it can actually measure your temperature. Your heart rate I don't know if it gets. We couldn't get breathing, but but they Philippe. Said is based on machine learning models they collect. Millions and millions of data points, and over time they can kind of understand what they're seeing, and I have to say that the CERTA paddles and the ring pretty much agree you know within say ten twenty percent the amount of time I spent deep sleep and stuff. I think apple may also want to dodge that bullet because in order for them to get those to get that kind of. learning a, they're just catching up the just starting now and be kind of collect data for a lot of did it for dancing. Let me they can detect. Dancing dancing is awesome. Dance dance got is the first time I've ever seen a presenter any tech conference. Dance. We're GONNA play. Jonathan Morrison Jonathan. Jonathan man video again, aren't we? Didn't I. Think I think when when Steve. Jobs announced the termination of Iowa's nine, didn't he dance on the cardboard coffin? That was why. Why never seen that before Ben Policy wanted to in his trajectory column about all this. The funeral for Mac os nine. I had never seen Jeff of Tim Cook dancing at the edge. On Yeah Yeah you too all right, so there's been some dancing I wouldn't necessarily call that dancing dancing. actually Steve. At at the keynote jobs was demonstrating the Apple Watch dance that was good very very well done. I was impressed and the the funeral for here. Let me play a little bit of this. I had never you guys remember this I I guess I wasn't this. Was the funeral. Just wrassling, isn't it? Yeah, that's his theme. Yes, they have a cough and it ain't cardboard. Andy, they have. It was a fancy coughing onstage got the organ music. There's fog. I don't I don't. Yeah, yeah, all I need. Is stonehenge coming down and then Steve Opens? The coffin pulls out a giant box. Nine and reads. It's eulogy. Which is hysterical? This eighteen years ago. AM, one that yeah, eighteen years ago may six two thousand two. Mac Os nine. Was a friend who all? What tirelessly on our behalf. I duNno, it's very funny. It's very funny it made the point quite effectively. Any developer thought the OH I bet that I can. I can still get by without having to support was ten for a little. Oh No, no, no! and. It wasn't by the way he had. It was long ago had been supplanted by Os ten, but he just wanted to tell everybody. Stop Stop Stop Stop and I think the coffin. He puts a rose on the coffin and I think I think it actually descends. into. into the. Into the stay I did that for North today. I made a tiny coffee. Bike they. They say late at night the campus when the moon is full. Curb well. We gotta do that for Mac Os ten. It's over. It's eleven. They took it to eleven. This if you're going to do it, this is the time yeah. Yeah, this is this is so significant that it really is almost like a relaunch of the platform. If anything I think that they were a little bit conservative because if they're if they're going to be this disruptive and I mean that in the in the neutral sense of the word they may as well go for broke but I'm so glad that they have smeared all of these changes, because that one of the reasons why I was for the for the past few years less last year that I've been worried about the future. Future of the Mac was that I got the Mac. Finder in the you by looks so frumpy. Y- looks at. It looks like the first ten minutes of that movie. Where like the male with female nerd is clearly, the the costume department said okay now remember and a half half hour into the movie they're going to. They're going to take all these elocution lessons. They're going to get a whole new wardrobe or they're gonNA find out that there are prince, so we gotta make sure they look really really dumpy at the very beginning at. Mac Os look like compared to every other operating system that I've seen yeah, so I'm glad so that's. If nothing else apple, really really achieve the the the at achieved being able to convince people that no, we're not just hanging onto the MAC as a development platform for IOS and watch Os. We really do believe that they've been saying it all along but I. I'm sure that I've said this time and time again on the show, but looking for is give me a sign. Don't just keep telling me actually show me proof that you intend to keep keeps up and known as a Macintosh for at least the next five years. Do we have any reason to believe Ming Chico? Even saying before, we just say that I do want sneak in and just let a little bit of the air out of the tires of the new messages and facetime APP yes icons just a little because they are so puffy, compared to everything else. Do, so you need them oldest all the developer preview. Yes, so I haven't. And I'm guessing Andy, hasn't I have I? Have rather you have so what you think of it? start with what do you do you is it is it gets? Inflated. No I really like overall I. really really like it is refreshed. That is lighter it's it's like the there's better afford us. Because everything is a little bit more space, it can breathe I. Think the completely transparent menu bar is a little bit bitsy. It lacks the cohesiveness of an actual bar, but you can hide it now, which is great and I think some of the new icons are fine, but I think overall the watch gets to have around icons and Apple TV guests to have rounded rectangle icons. ICONS AND IOS. Has Those Super Lips icons and I think it's a disservice to the MAC to let them lose their own distinction that they've had for years, and that could be like arbitrary shapes or angled rector or something that let's back its on identity, and just make them the same world Super Lips. Is that are on iphone? So I think all of the icons are bad I. Think I think summer flatter and some are puffier. They should normalize all of that, but in general, I think the. Switching the icons to be exactly like Mac or sorry shaped like iphone and IPAD APPS as a service to the yeah. I I I I'm not a design guy so i. don't I don't have any strong feelings, one way or the other. It definitely looks. A little it is interesting like you can choose your wallpaper to be that one, which is just like irs, but they also have traditional Mac, like picture of what they do. have big picture of big Sur that you can use instead you get the and both of them are working light and dark mode. Oh, that's interesting twos year allegiances, are you Hashtag team iphone, background, or Ash Mac that, because the iphone background is the one we've all seen abstract layers of color to sort of simulate big. Sur The water, the mountains the. Ocean, but the beauty the power the beauty those I gotta say those bars are big. Those icon bars are Chai Jain Norma's. Trying to touch them right now, yeah. Yeah I absolutely accept that people are like Rene said that people are reading into these design changes both an Iowa macro was the way they want. It really does look like they're making this much more touch. Friendly whether that's whether that's to have simply to have visual consistency with Iowa's, or whether that really is the idea of we're. GonNa need that the title bars of these windows to be grabble by a fingertip as opposed to a mouse or attract that. I see a lot of error around there. I see a lot of transparency around there that I'm still trying to get used to i. see them trying to. Minimize the visual impact of the menu bar as ift. Part of that message is to say, don't look for features up there. You're supposed to look for features within within content windows. I like it I. I did find it more off-putting after I finish my first day with it than I did this morning when I was messing around with it. it re I really think that the I'm trying to figure out if using safari is going to be the biggest, tell to what apple wants a a MAC APP to look like, and if so I'm kind of hoping that apple dials it back. A little bit been a long time on Safari. Yeah. It just feels like. Remember the difference between. Iowa's seven and let's say Iowa's nine when when they absolutely decided that. Okay, it's time to get rid of the original I iphone interface and start updating a little bit. It was dark. It was. It was like a like salt flat where there is. It exactly the no, let's get all the colors like those. Let's make all of the texts really really skinny. Let's not give you any sort of indication of One thing on this screen is more important than something other that something's is trying to get your attention and but they saw you saw them dial back that back over the next couple of years. I think that we're going to I. Hope that naturally we're going to see a certain once wants lenses off off the off the ranch and into the hands of. Not Real people yet, but closer one step closer to real people in the form of developers who can give lots of feedback It's I'm I'm keen to see how people react to it when the public Beta hits very very soon because if if it doesn't feel like a Mac you've you've Kinda? You kinda messed it up. still feels like a Mac, but it is a big big step, yeah! a couple of things that privacy forward very much. In fact, there's a privacy report that tells you what. Are on a page. A lot of people go straight year other. PLUG INS on other browsers to do that. That's nice. Apple is also and there's some real consternation in the ad community about this Essentially, giving you a pop up, that says hey, you know you have an. There's an ad tracker that's being used to deliver personalized ads for you. Do you want to allow that? You WanNa ask the APP not to do that and by surfacing that. This has always been apparently always been in the settings, but it's deep within. Nobody knows about it by surfing seeing that as part of this new user permissions dialogue that all APPS will have on IOS There's a lot of concern that apple killing. Outside the FA it's. A lot of that I thought was like because a bunch of people who I see complain about. But ads and the and the tracking, and all goes on are suddenly worried about the AD companies. Because Apple's doing it and to me, it just smells like apple headlines, and I think Apple Apple does this. They did this with battery shaming and all we saw was the APPS in the Battery Chamber and then they fixed it. They did it with Bluetooth. And all you saw was always absolutely asking for your Bluetooth. Information and they fixed. Fixed it, and they just did it with the clipboard, and we saw tiktok asking for the clipboard every three seconds, and they fixed it to me. It's like that that's what you do you you you disclose, and you get consent and the AD industry if they if they have any pride at all in their business model. They think it's a good business model that is good for them, and it's good for us, then they should. Should have no problem with US actually being aware of what's happening on those web pages, and if they think there's issues with it, this highlights them and they can. They can fix it I did hear. I do agree with Ben Thompson that it does make it harder for smaller competitors, because Google and facebook have a tremendous capacity to serve you first party cookies that you'll start up. Advertising and smaller networks just simply can't compete with and. And so, it's even with GDP are. It's easier for Google and facebook to handle that than it is for the small companies, but I still feel like looking at it from a business point of view is the wrong end of it. You look at it from the user point and for the user. This is a huge win. Absolutely yeah, and also the commitment that apple has to. This is very very important. I've always thought that. I've always thought that one of the problems that apple had in. It's so we're the only company that really cares about privacy. The problem with that messaging was that Oh, but we really don't care. If people keep it continue to track you and collect information through our website through our web, browser or anybody else's web browser. This absolutely is a reversal of that not only because this exactly the sort of position that is important the in this day and age to not simply say. Oh, he I don't know if you know if there's a fourteen trackers after. Safari as like. Let's let me give you the report on exactly what battlefield what the battle is like behind the scenes right now here is every single instance of a website that's trying to get information and how they're trying to do it. And letting you have control of the situation, and just just this week. their whole bunch of new hardware based Web. API's that got that got released. That apple is now. It's not going to support simply because it allows finger. It's an opportunity for for. For extended fingerprinting identify you even though you taken measures to make sure that your browser and your incident can't be, can't be fingerprinted. This is an important thing for the safari brand. Apple has to for everything that apple does they have to say? Here's what I know. The chrome is the most powerful browser in the world. I know that Fire Fox is the most popular open browser in the world, but we have safari, and here is what here's the unique advantage that we can deliver and then. It's not only It will not bogged down your computer as though it's been thrown into a Scottish bog but it will also not only will not drain your battery, but also it is the most it proactively security oriented browser that you can install right now. Yeah, and a little bit, and saying that you know and not not really Google's fault, but Google's in a position now that Microsoft used to be in that they are so popular that people are voting for chrome rather than coating the open web, and it's not that there aren't web standards is. Sit there like more like web suggestions. Suggestions in every vendor implements them in a way that best suits that company, because it's just natural in Google sees everything as a web. APP and Apple sees everything is a native APP and they have different interpretations, but the end result is, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't work as well on Safari, and the only sort of ability apple has to affect change beyond that is that the web kit engine runs everything on iphone and IPAD which are hugely popular, so by doing things like this? They sort of forced the web a little bit in their direction to. We talked about so go ahead. So quickly. You know that you don't see very many websites right now. At this point that say oh. I'M NOT GONNA. Let you proceed until you turn your adblocker offer white-list us. You see it sometimes but rest. This would be a way that the the entire at community say no. We're GONNA. Force you to turn off Adblocker, because otherwise we're not gonNA. have any content to to pursue in any way shape. Shape or form because they tried that initially, but they got the metrics back and say when we make somebody do something to read an article that we that that this person hasn't even read yet. Their reaction is to leave and go to one of the other eighteen Tara. Billion pages that are Internet are yeah exactly so they're not, they're not. Apple is doing something. They know that they can do is. Going to pop up, saying that I'm sorry, safari is not supported by by this content. Please switch to a less less and security android. Andrew Okay we're GONNA do. Rate I wasn't planning on doing this right now. We can do this right now. I'm just saying because even if even if you change your default web browser an Iowa, it's still the web rendering engine. Like the IT only goes down that stack. Such a good thing that you know we don't have things like APPs on Iowa's stealing information for the clipboard. We never agree with you on. They have they have an unusual amount of control to wheel a weapon on Iowa. What apple did we. There was just a tick tock. Other APPS or just saying. Look at your clipboard. What are you doing? What are you doing? That's good. That's Great Apple. It's it's terrible when it happens with things like hey, where some of our friends. There are some really bad APPs. That apple's in the position to okay bye-bye you make. The only issues when it looks like it's in in their for their business reasons as opposed to to protect users, and sometimes it does look that way. Maybe they can make an argument that it's not, but it does look that way. how credible is being Chico? Is he saying? He's the analyst who sends out these notes and he saying there will be a thirteen point. Three inch MAC book, pro, running apple silicon and I'm back. I have to say. He says it's a twenty four inch. I Mak, which makes me think what why would they? Why would they do that? But it is an all new form factor, and that they would both launch probably in the third or fourth quarter of this year. Or early twenty, twenty, one I like that because apple's not nostalgic, but those I believe are the first Intel MACs ship Oh. That's interesting. Mac, which is interesting, yeah? I I'm I'm just guessing here, but I I'm just surprised. I would be surprised if apple did not want to make the MAC, book air or the Mac book nothing one of the first Max out the gate, because people are buying, people are buying that not for power, and not for flexibility they're buying it for freedom from physical tethers to this curse at ground, and the ability to simply say by the way the back book that used to get ten hours of battery life now gets fourteen fifteen hours of battery life. That is immediately convincing people that this is why we see one of the reasons why we switched to arm. It is flying the flag for. I? I'm trying to figure out if I'm just being sort of like an apple marketing. Do by calling it. Could instead of arm I'm I'm still navigating that choice. Oh, I'm sorry. Eighty six. That's this is the way I mentally. Our PC to Intel, but they do have armed sixty four on the technical slides. It's just it's. It's not an arm set. You, yeah, yeah! I think it's important. Chip Apple. Yes, it's not arm as delivered by. Karm. It's it's my arm. Well. Arm doesn't deliver anything, but they make the CORTEX that people can just FAB- if they want the CORTEX design and design. So it's a nebulous thing because like it's not like like I. do people insist on calling amd and x eighty six chip? Most of them just called in amd chip. With it but I think. I'd doesn't. It is a marketing term, but I think it's also to distinguished from arm. I wish they would announce their new name sooner than later, so we don't have to keep saying it because it's a lot of Celaya onic Ab, it's triumph. They'll, they'll have a new name naming a numbering scheme. I presume to distinguish them from the. Chips or maybe not, maybe it'll just be fifteen or something ex team. Just go right after the X86, heart. That'd be cool. Well I I the reason I ask this for me I'm asking for a friend. because. I I don't think I. WanNa to buy another computer of any kind until I. See these and I can hold out till the end of the year I don't know if I can hold out some you're not Alex Alex wants no part of a brand new machine that he doesn't know how final cut and all his rendering stuff runs on. Much rather you by Leo and tell them in the next year. I'd much rather. Grow. and. He could tell me about that, so we're different people. I, honestly I've been getting this question Cherie all been getting this question. A million times for by people who read less listen to us or Join US for dinner, but I. Keep telling people that if if you need a Mac this year, and maybe if you can wait until the fall, see what kinds of Hardware Apple Releases Parvez first-wave do that but I wouldn't wait a year and have if if I'm stuck with like a ten year old Mac, that is not getting the job done. That I cannot edit videos the way that I want to do it. I can't run photoshop the way I want to do it or any other reason like that. That I still feel as though any Intel Mac you by this year is going to have the at least the five-year utility life that I expect to get from any brand new computer. Yeah, as Jaws told Gruber on the talk show, he bought a sixteen inch macbook pro for his daughter because she's going to college as all she needs. Something now Jason Snell said he did the same thing for his daughter. Although it was just a macbook air, he couldn't afford sixteen, but but actually Mac Bulgars a perfect college To run final cut like I depend on running final cut and I'm sure it's going to run on the Max but I. Know like every plug in I buy. Everything is going to be exactly the way that I need to run for the next few years, and I can look at people on twitter and see how it's working for them, and then make a decision after like I, just don't buy that Revenue Board. I'll be the Guinea pig. I will by the Review Board I by an air in a heartbeat I would buy a apple silicon, heartbeat and apple silicon. Mac, pro, I would. Tell for what if MAC book pro? That was almost as thin as an air like thinner than the existing one which they could do right and had twenty hour battery life. That might be an had no basil. That might be pretty. You know so. It's I would want my I need final cut and so. Yeah Yeah They barely support the three D. APP. She uses on Intel yes. Yes, yes, that was a good tweet. They I mean if if I, if one of the first I apple silicon based MACs that apple releases this fall where Amac mini, which is the undisputable? The desktop computer that I want in my office when I make upgrades, I would almost certainly by it. I would not mind being eating the first generation of dog food partly because I'm retrieved by what An. An arm processor is going to be giving me two years from now, and I can't afford to buy to to fifteen hundred dollar desktops in two years just out of curiosity on a notebook when it comes to a notebook, I'm still sort of like hedging my bets I. Don't know what I want right now but that's I would not hesitate to buy an arm based Mac mini of one released I'm not gonna I'm not gonNA. Buy an Mac because MAC is just. Not Going to I'm still skeptic. I'm still. The the macbook pro is still not necessarily what I want. It doesn't instill joy in me immediately as as conduct. RECON dewitt might say and so I'm still trying to figure out if that's what I'm still even trying to figure out. If a two thousand dollar laptop is still even relevant to how I use computers in two thousand and twenty one as opposed to the mid two thousands, but the but I'm all I'm trying to communicate here is that I. Don't think anybody is going to be host if they buy an Intel based Mac this year. You. You always have to balance My my my advice to people is always the same that. Don't consider hardware upgrade until you have firm idea of how it's going to either solve a problem for you or create opportunity for you but the other thing is that. If you need a computer today, think about everything. You're going to lose on the next year by waiting until next year for a machine that might never actually come or might be irrelevant. Irrelevant to your knees like imagine if I were holding off on a really really bad old MAC book for two years ago. I know there's a there's a major redesign of the macbook macbook pro coming so by the way here it is, and now it has a keyboard. You can't possibly us, so you're kind of an idiot for waiting two years when you could have been using the last generation of good for you. Yeah and certainly I think we've all converged on this. We talked about it on Sunday on twitter. As well that if you need a Mac, there's no reason not to buy a MAC right now. There's no reason to delay. And if you don't then, it might be worth waiting I just I. Don't remember, but my sense is those g. four's felt pretty old, pretty quick, not because they world, but just because you wanted the new Intel Mac. But into the until it was providing such well, there's a tweet Steve Staunton. Smith that he put up yesterday where he said the developer transition kit, which is a two year old IPAD ship runs x eighty six sixty four code in emulation, fasten the surface pro x runs it natively. Doing and that get, this is like the worst that we will ever see. Mac Os running on apple silicon. Apple's done year over year over year improvements this at one hundred times in ten years. Improvement so it and until it's still doing so badly. That is hard to imagine within two three years. They'll have a significant lead, not not maybe not in terms of what Zeon can do, but in terms of power per what and what apple can do in the people complain about map books all the time hot they are. Nobody complains about how hot it is, and it's fast so there there are certain aspects that are highly appealing about what this combination is going to bring, yeah. And the benchmarks are out and I. DON'T WANNA report on them because they're out illegally. Apple was very clear. If you've got one of the developer kits, you're not to benchmark, but they do leak out because people forget that. If if you keep bench and it's going to be posted on the site unless you essay otherwise and you know it's not the it's not as super fast, but it's, but it's pretty impressive. The two year old architecture could run as well as it has, and almost everyone has been running in emulation. They've been downloading. Geek bench from the MAC APP store, which is the Intel version running it through Rosetta real numbers you're seeing is the emulated. Yeah, that's not bad. On Patch. So no I'M I. I mean honestly if my real advice, would you probably don't need a computer? Just stop buying computers. That's your mistake early. Do. You don't need a computer but I. don't need no stinking computer. Apple, design there are other stories we'll go to those real quickly before get your picks of the week Apple. Design Award winners came out and yesterday or today I. Think and Dark Room. Which is a beautiful photo editor? It's you know actually darkroom. An IPAD to me is why I don't need Photoshop Light Room. It's just gorgeous from Bergen. It's so. I haven't played. This game loom with three Os from IRS studio. It's an animation playground. With music creation tools. We'll be doing this on IOS today next week. We're going to do all of the. Demo and play with all of the award. Winners shaper three. D. which is a cat APP for the IPAD wow. That's wow again. Wow, an IPAD and apple pencil. I haven't tried it later this year. They say it's GonNa Use the light are scanner, so you can generate three D and three D floor plans. Why just wow, staff, pat I haven't used any of these. This Converts Handwritten Musical Notation into digital sheet music. That's cool. And then you can use your Apple Pencil with it after you've done that. In the game series I do agree with this the Apple Arcade game. Sinar wild hearts, which is not only beautiful is an album. It's a music album and it's got a great soundtrack. That's from Simcoe from Malmo's Sweden and another beautiful one sky children of the light. which is a social quest that actually comes from? That game company. They did something very similar. I think it was on the xbox playstation that I played that I really liked, and this is kind of a continuation song of bloom from indeed developer Phillips stolen. Meyer us a one guy a one man crew? looks like there's popcorn involved i. don't Songa Bloom. we're cards fall. Go Beautiful, yeah the game band. Publishers Snowman that looks like a kind of platform puzzle game right those one of the inaugural apple or K. Games where like it was just so moody and Atmospheric. Snow. These cards structures yeah gorgeous yeah. So there you go the The winners of the design awards eight developers eight APPS. I would say the ones I've played. They're all stellar. It really just shows you what great work is being done? on IOS well done yeah! APPLE IS A. Category like just to Andy's point man. Maybe they're waiting for the relaunch before they have a MAC category again. They can have a unified category. Just runs the apple silicon category. wimpy, wimpy, great to see like at least maybe a special award or a special competition for shortcuts. I think. Kate, interesting shortcuts these. Almost, like almost like a, it'd be like the best demo it'd be like the best the best use of one finger touch on an apple, watch or the best use of one tap on. co-winner does. Yeah really there's only. Like. I'd also I honestly would love to see things like clips be highlighted because I wanna see more APPs using clips, so there's an opportunity for apple to to promote some of these technologies offer launch these really neat technologies, and then you know nobody pays them any. Day like the when the version launcher they typically have categories that highlights all the apps that best represent what the new features in Iowa SARS on the front page of the APP store you'll have all the clips APPs and all the air kid for APPs, and all the APPs that use whatever other new technology the best widgets probably. All of that stuff apple is adding as fire. Fox has done support for encrypted. Do DNS. And Dot! That's a good thing at a lot of people don't like it. especially in service providers it is not a VPN. In fact, it's you shouldn't use it and a VPN is one of the other, but it does at least keep your isp from seeing what pages your visiting, so that's a good thing, a new way to get an apple cart. If you've been turned down my son, who's just getting started in his credit, life doesn't want to apply for an apple cart because he's afraid of getting turned down. Well Henry. Now you could apply for it and if you do get turned down, they have four months. Plan a path to apple card telling you how you can get approved in as little as. Four months. It's an opt in. Program Leverages Information. That Goldman Sachs used to determine credit worthiness. To outline why they were declined and have help them improve those specific financial markers so that in four months. They can achieve the holy grail. And Apple Cart. Filling Apple wants to. Spend so. It's good for everyone. Rumor up your personal dream, so you can make, you can make more money and by. The way the way another rumor from Mr Cousteau or Mr. Mingji I'm not sure. being cheese on. No, he's Chinese, never mind being. T xin-chang On who says? That apple will not put the charger or ear pods in the next iphone. And I know portfolio, how could they have? How can they take? Idea There's billions of tons of e waste created every year by useless chargers. Certainly by now you have a charger, you could use your iphone, and if not you can buy one from Apple. and You it looks like a twenty. The thing that's interesting to me is that people are like well. I apple cut the price of the IPHONE by the same amount as a charger, believing that the retail price of like I think it's like twenty bucks for the five Watt and forty bucks for the eighteen. What apple pays dollars? They very very little for those things and never going to sell six hundred ninety seven dollar iphone, so the only logical thing like they're probably gonNA eat the cost of five G. like a lot of vendors. Raise prices by one hundred. A Samsung cost this year compared to last year. They're just going to eat that cost, and then they'll hope that you don't notice the loss of couple of threes along the way it's actually. That's what. says he says the number. One reason is margins because of these. Expensive Five G. Components and the Covadonga hit to the supply chain. He also says it's good for the environment. Because it makes these boxes smaller, you can ship them easier. And he says it's the next iphone. It's not going to have ports, so you might as well get. People used to IT I. Think. That's fair. I think it's fair and then. All! To expect a little less yeah, but but wouldn't it be now? This this is this is something that occurred to me after I was working through my complicated feelings, regarding this rumor about. Wouldn't it be interesting if apple's? Did the math and realize that here. Here's the number of chargers. We are not going to ship in this calendar year in this region, and simply said we are going to. We're going to package and like just little like a blister packs, the same sort of like really cheap two dollar chargers, and we're going to basically send them to every apple store, and if someone comes into an apple store with an Apple iphone that they've bought in in recent history and said hey i. need a charger. They just get it. They're just handed a charger immediately so that so so that to say that look if we if you really need A. A charger if you really if you don't already have one, or if you can't afford ten dollars for a charger but by Amazon come into an apple store, we'll give you a charger. We also will take note of the last time you ask for free. When we gave one to you, but not only would that be saying that that would negate the deal. How come you're not giving me what it used to give me, but it also say that Oh my God. I can't believe I lost my charger. be able to walk into an apple store and like the handed a charger that would be the most amazing goodwill things. Through the apple store that's true I. Fine you get up. Fabi's. That's how they did. They did I. Wonder I mean the reason that they extensively they kicked. Hey, out of the APP store is because when you download the APP. And opened it up. It did nothing. And we don't want apps the to nothing. Will you bought a phone and you didn't have a charger in it it, wouldn't you really you'd be Kinda stuck to. Wouldn't you especially in jurisdictions where you can't ship a phone with electrical charge anymore? Yeah, you'd be kind of like well. That's nice. Here's a piece of it. It looks. was going to mandate this anyway I. Know Apple has been pushing back really hard. The with the though is, they're so nebulous like when they said that you have to have standardized charge. Do they mean the plug? Do they mean the cable? Every news outlet covered differently, and it looks like the mean. They're going to actually mandate. No plugs in boxes and apple fought them on the cable, but it doesn't look like they're going to fight them on the plug because the plug doesn't mean anything to lightning, it doesn't care about lightnings. A white white fight them on the whole thing is just I. Don't know what percentage of Apple iphone buyers don't have a charger, but maybe. If you swapped from Android, you probably have a USB see charge for. They'll put the cable in the box or no. Will, then you know yeah, I believe cables. Last I will say I will say they're going to be really bummed out. If the next iphone ships without a charging port, they're charging. Slash data point port. It's nearly time for that yet. No probably a year or two. Wonderful technology like in the MAC. Sorry applying. The apple, so look at where it has that recovery partition is going to be part of their their answer to some of the problems with Portland's devices. Sure Yeah. The. There's I'm sorry. I know that you're trying to wrap event. But but they so long as as my my position has always been. You can't. If you're going to take away something from me, make sure you're giving me something that is as compelling the you're taking away, so if apple rebels if two years from now or three years from now apple's going to make the case that well and thanks to our best in class battery life. Now you can get now. You get three three days. The battery life out of out of a single chart so snow long unlike some of our brothers and sisters, the Android community. You are not going to run out of run out of charge and need to have a USB battery pack with you. You at all times, and by that also we identified this as a point of compromise for people who be government or individuals who are trying to get data off of your phone without your permission, and we've also introduced so many different technologies that allow you to recover this this machine recover your device without having to plug it into. It is that we've essentially we feel as though we've addressed every need for a an actual physical connector and gotten rid of it. I would I would fall in line pretty quickly if they simply say, we decided it was bumming us out that we had to cut a hole. That are beautiful iphone, so we didn't good luck with that. I. Still have a smart connector an adapted. Let you plug it in. About it. That's a good idea. This smart actor on the back that solves all. Keyboard now, right? Yeah, I, I don't think that would work as well because. Of the life that I, the life that I lead with iphones and with android phones right now does not involve by I. Own one charging standard to charging stands. It's that I have a position I I'm if I'm two rooms away from the room where I have my one or two chargers and that's a big problem for me. Where whereas if I were position where at some point? Point in at some point in in in every year I've misplaced my. Oh, that's my three foot charging cable I. Would I need a six foot, one or a couple more from Amazon which means that there's one in my every single blacktop back have one pretty much a within reach everywhere if it were certainly if I'm the one of the of my of my Sony Walkman Music Player As, I as I as I said, but I made it. A pick of the week is that it uses the stupid like you know. Original Sony Walkman style, charge a nonstandard charging port, which means that there times right? Don't use it because I need to I know I'm going to be going for a walk later in the day, but I can't find my one copy of the surging cable, so it goes uncharged through for good amount of time I fear that that if apple decided that Pogo pins is going is going to be the way to go again another set of incompatible cables. I'm going to need I don't think that's going to be as good as simply saying just give. He just gives you a SPEC-. On pro-life phones. Yeah, I take. I take. Are In hurry to get rid of the for two important reasons one the first launch for Space Force is mere minutes away. It's a GPS light, but it is the first launch for Space Force. G. I joe. And I've got a brisket on my traeger that I think. There, we go. That's the real reason. Brisket is always an accessible excuse for ending at any meeting. I've got my get. Rapid flail. Sorry I need this vehicle. It's a brisket emergency. Last story apple is losing apple. News is losing the New York Times. I don't know if this will be the first of many defections. We've talked before about how publishers are not thrilled about the fact. They don't get any customer information from apple that it doesn't drive a lot of traffic. The very few organizations are as big and as rich and as powerful as the New York Times, but starting yesterday times articles no longer appearing on the apple. Feed. So, we'll see if this this means for for only like four countries I mean it's. It's so the opposite on everyone about apple's other services. I just I. I keep checking in I. Just I get too much. Useless material and and it's just not a good feet from me and I can't bookmark in Senate out anyway, because it just sends out a bookmark poll news, which is useless. Fixing that, too. They're also adding away which I wanted. Where if you click on a link to a web to an article that you don't subscribe on the Web, but you do have it through Apple News. It'll send you to Apple News, which has always been my frustration wall. Street, Journal and New York Times. Say Some of these and so I can't see him, yeah. Okay if you know and by the way that's we didn't. We barely touched on Iowa's fourteen, but there's some nice, really nice features coming. Combing the ability to set a different. Default Browser e-mail program which I. THINK IS BIGGER SHOW YEAH! We need a bigger show. But the thing is week by week. We are weekly less dumb about what we what we knew the week before. That's true. And for people who are because a lot of people are complaining. They don't see that. In the Beta developers have to flag an APP saying it's a candidate for browser and for email and apple has to approve it because they don't want some company to make scam rouser that redirects their Amazon affiliate links or shows you a bunch of tracker ads so like if chrome says we're a browser, apple, said yes, you are, but if like, the browser xrays, ed or something comes up and says please now, sorry, do you WanNa? Make promos watched the rocket. Go Up! Is it almost time John? Five more minutes okay. Space Farce food that that could be are like like three hundred million dollar out tro. Perfect time to right Andy NOCCO. You're a week. Unfortunately Colorado passed away today at Oh, not unexpected. But still very very sad. my where you start. Where do you begin to talk about how wonderful he was? I'm just GONNA use my pick of the week to recommend. I was an avid collector of his memoirs. He started writing his memoirs in his eighties and his audio books of these memoirs are amazing. Because he did, he did start off life as As a performer quickly became a writer performer, but you can see how much how often over the previous decades he had told each of these stories, and how he had honed each of these stories about his life, and his his making making his way through to determine straight is honed each story to raise precision an ounce of fat on it and if I look at my greatest hits and my and my audible library. Starting with my anecdotal life, it as are often just Carl Reiner Colorado stories so. As long as we did, I mean he was even doing a quarantine podcast dispatches from quarantine. And he had a great twitter account, and he just never ever ever stopped. That is so aspirational beat to be fortunate enough to have your health and your wits about you and your nineties, but also to not have lost your passion and the joy you you you do take in the career that you so luckily found for yourself when you're eighteen nineteen twenty years old. That is such a blessing it. Well, at least the two thousand year, old man is still alive, so. We can't we will I will go home tonight and watch all of me, so yes, yes, yeah, all right. That's a sad way to go, but yes I'm glad you mentioned that I hadn't heard. I'm big big big Fan of courses, Son Rob, Reiner also very successful director and actor and comedian. Carl Reiner at the age of Ninety Eight Ninety, eight, eight Mel Brooks about five years behind him. And still sharp, Still Justice Sharp, yeah! Rene your pick of the week. Telling me going after Antioch in the Best of Times is really difficult to go with something so self serving as I am doing after he has been ahead on their. Channel? So I got a chance to sit down and talk to. People from Apple. Cecilia, who is part of product, marketing and Katie? who was actually at the keynote? She was one doing the privacy demonstration, and she manages user privacy at Apple and we spoke for about half an hour on the. user interface. Things like messages and maps, and then we spoke for about another fifteen minutes about privacy, and how apple views privacy and sort of the way in which they're continuously. Driving this giant privacy machine there containing and it, it was absolutely delightful. Great way for me to end WDC just some casual chat about the stuff that I I was on this complete espresso in WDC high. So I'm really not even sure what I said. But they were eloquent, informative and she got Craig figured Federico Seat on the ring because I. I see the rainbow outside her window. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's really marcus. Smart People Really Nice. That's on the Rene. Ritchie channel which one must watch it youtube dot, com slash Rene Ritchie, and of course. You'RE GONNA. Be W. G.. B. H. Boston when. tomorrow Wednesday, because of the July fourth holiday moved up, so I'm going to be on one pm on Wednesday as usual tune into Gbh, news dot org to stream it live or later when it gets posted very good and of course Mac break weekly appears every Tuesday run eleven am Pacific two PM Eastern time eighteen hundred ut see if you want to tune in and watch, we have a live audio video stream. TWIT DOT TV slash live You can also get on demand. Versions of the show at our website twit dot, TV slash, M. B. W. of course are favored way the best way you could possibly get. It would be to subscribe in your favorite podcast application. Because after all. Who wants to get up of a Tuesday and not have MAC break weekly waiting for them to listen to. Next week. I don't know who's going to be on. We'll get Lori back. Let's just have all the three of you and see. Alex can make it I. Don't know we'll just. We'll just has once again. You just gotTa. See wonder what what high profile person is streaming live this afternoon. I know I know it's great and he. He only told us yesterday, so it must have been something important earn. Think about that Ladies and gentlemen I am sad to say. It's time to go back to work. Because break time is over meanwhile. Let's exit with my pick of the week a giant. Ship on its way. Nine. Eight into the seven-day. Five. or Three. To. One Zero. GPS. SPACEX launches it. third-generation, whatever that means means the low exactly where you are at all time. And it's part of our space force. The First Space Force launch. Too Bad. There's no base in that in that audio. It sounds like like baking soda and Vinegar Rocket. There you would be able to feel. eardrum. It. Yeah, the first diet coke and mentos rocket to breach low earth orbit. Need something more than in the speed test next to come on this space? National Geographic's going to take down again because they own space. Thank you Rene Ritchie. Thank you. Thank you everybody for joining us. We'll see you next time. Bye, Bye Hey, folks I'm Mike Sergeant host of hands on Iowa's right here on the twit network. If you've got Iowa's devices or watch Os, devices or TV west of any kind of apple mobile device, you are gonNA, want to check out hands on Iowa's. It is the best way to make the most of those devices I walk through tips, tricks and everything in between plus answer your questions, so be sure to check it out. It's twit. DOT, TV slash.

Apple apple Microsoft Mac twitter Rene Ritchie Andy Google Caspar Casper developer Jason Snell Leo Alex Lindsay Casper