2 Episode results for "Jim Younger"
154 - The Outlaw Jesse James and the James-Younger Gang
"Jesse james was one of the most infamous bank and train robbers in the history of the american west the image of the outlaw narrowly escaping capture after another brazen banker train robbery the guns blazing saddles topic galloping getaway steed is an iconic image of the american old west james lee members of the james younger gang of outlaws men men involved in numerous hold-ups left far too many men dead does he robbed and killed for the entirety of his life and he made a lot of enemies and also gathered a lot of admirers during along criminal run robert pinkerton son of allan pinkerton founder of america's first private detective agency not ended mirer when speaking to a reporter reporter for the richmond democrat on november twentieth eighteen seventy nine he said i consider jesse james the worst man without any exception in america he is utterly devoid of fear and has no compunction about cold blooded murder then he has about eating his breakfast. The editor of the lexin lexington kentucky's questionably named nineteenth century paper the weekly caucasian wrote about jesse and his fellow gang members and nothing but glowing terms in an article written on october tober seventeenth eighteen seventy four all the annals of romantic crime furnish no parallel to the exploits of missouri's bold rovers since ishmail hung out his shingle thirty-seven centuries ago in the desert of eden as a dashing untameable boss brig and they have been unsurpassed. They've laid aladdin in the a shade and snuffed out all his marvel hatching lamps. They've eclipse the wildest wonders of the arabian nights and rendered commonplace the most incredible achievements of the said did they've made the tales of the crusaders and the buccaneers stale nursery crooning achilles and hector barabbas rob roy dick tarpon in sixteen in string jack dwindle to ordinary marauders beside them john edwards editor of the sa- dahlia democrat also seemed to have a lot of love for jesse she james writing the following for james april eighteen eighty two obituary we call them outlaw and he was but fate made him so when the war closed jesse james had no home hunted shot driven away a price upon his head. What else could the man do accept what he did. When he was hunted it turns savagely about an hunted his hunters summing up the legend jesse james decades after his death early and mid twentieth century american poet carl sandburg said jesse james is the only american who has classical who is to this country. What robin hood is to england whose exploits are so close to the mythical. James was a hero to some and a cold blooded murderer thief to others his divided legacy reflected the divided time and place he lived in jesse was born in missouri a state far more culturally split than most in the years leading up to during immediately following the civil war officially missouri fought for the union but culturally it was a southern dixie state through and through missouri was a border state tucked into the mid west sharing traits of all the regions around it. The the industrial most of the northeast the pioneer self-sustaining family farms the north west and the slaveholding plantation traditions of the south seventy five percent of missouri's population nation was from the south or from other border states comprised of people primarily from the south jesse's own family heritage with southern clay county where he was born and raised was especially southern culture in missouri as a whole slaves accounted for only ten percent of the state population but in clay county they constituted twenty five percent percents missouri was a very atypical union ally. The state entered the union in eighteen twenty. One is a slave state following the missouri compromise of eighteen twenty twenty when congress agreed that slavery would be legal an all louisiana purchase territory north of the thirty six degrees thirty foot line of latitude except upped missouri missouri was a northern state with a culture that was largely pro confederate and pro slavery and when the civil war broke out much of missouri went to battle with itself itself and james family as confederate sympathizers ended up on the losing side during the civil war james older brother frank fought on behalf of the confederate with the band of guerrillas willis making him an outlaw since he was legally required to fight on behalf of the union and towards the end of the war jesse joined his brother became a wanted man himself. The first criminal acts of jesse james were undoubtedly political. He was fighting for the south in a northern state. It was the war that initially made him outlaw and when the war was over and he began to rob trains and banks confederate sympathizers continued to see jesse's ex not as criminal exploits but his acts of political defiance he was seen as fighting the union oppression shirow southern culture he was a hero his robberies and murders played a part in what was perceived as a confederate effort to achieve post wartime political goals by violent means however whoever had jesse james existed a century later he would have simply been called an anti-american domestic terrorist and his crimes continue to get harder and harder to rationalize as any sort of revolutionary and it got easier to see him as a ruthless killer and a thief exploiting pro confederate sympathies for his own personal financial gains were his motivations political or did he kill robin murad just to make a quick buck and spread his growing infamy. The legend of jesse i see james and the old west gang he rode with is a complicated one and we enthusiastically dissect and explore it here today and the times these men lived in in this yeah wild west ala historical edition of time suck. This is michael mcdonald and you're listening to time suck estate happy monday. Meet sacks dan come and sir sucking ten the big suck big daddy suck master the suck and he who suck the longest horace in the deepest and you're listening listing time suck you beautiful curious bastards. Welcome to the call to the curious. Don't be scared. Don't be scared stefan in take your clothes off. Prepare put don't wanna ropes. Grab a ceremonial sword power amulet and start chanting so normal. It's all very normal. Hail nimrod hate lose safina praise good boy bojangles and yacht rock bad boy michael motherfucking mcdonald. Today's time suck is brought to you by nitsa the national oh highway traffic safety administration. Do you think it's okay to drive stoned. 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Surgically urgently replaced the script keeper high priests also here pulses for queen to suck run and everything else in my family's today like she usually is like the like the bad ass <music> sexy runners shit bitch she truly is hell is athena thank you so much for the recent ratings and reviews and the bad magic productions youtube channel final subscriptions over eighty five hundred ratings which really helps us show fi new listeners it has been finding new listeners listenership has doubled since january wrote to two million total downloads unloads a month now incredible very thankful. You can also find the trailer to my new podcast scared to death on spotify and youtube on the bad magic productions channel. Are we trying scare the shit out of lindsey with two allegedly true horror tales you know each week starting september seventeenth at midnight pacific time two episodes at first nice. 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Thanks so much for showing up to the stand up shows more and more time sticker showing up seems like you guys have been loving the new material to having a lot of fun onstage and now it's time to have a lot of fun right here. Let's have some fun here you guys. Hey bud one. Let's do it. Let's get the topic time. Yeah jesse woodson james one of the best remembered and most exaggerated characters of the old west. His tail is a story of a man who grew up without a father got really good at killing and guerrilla warfare became became a famous outlaw even married and had kids with his first cousin before meeting his own violent yup more cousin fucking suck incest in history. Go together like <hes> <hes> well like first cousin pizzas and i guess jesse james was seen by some as a heroic robin hood like figure legends persist to this dave is berry return treasures coded diaries and treasure maps both jesse in his older brother frank. I learned to kill during civil war more on that in a bit jesse james also at at the center of a number of conspiracy theories that linked him with secret societies like the freemasons in a pro slavery group called the knights of the golden circle conspiracy theorists include jesse james alleged great great grandson who has claimed to have extensively researched written and spoken about his family's crazy history for more than twenty years. We'll get into the conspiracies towards the ended this episode before we get into today's shoot 'em up. Robin reid away timeline deal detail on the crimes that may jesse famous. Let's take a look at some of the context that helped form his life life. We'll start of course with his start. A jesse woodson james born in clay county missouri on september fifth eighteen forty seven now legend has it that he shot his way out of his mother's uterus with colt walker six shot revolver came out with the bandanna hiding his face cowboy hat on his head thick beard stubble on his face. Not only could he walk birth. He could write a dog like a horse. That's exactly what he did. He wrote the family sheepdog in town and killed two men in a saloon robbery. Within thirty minutes of taking his own first breath of air port himself glass of whisky swelled at one gulp and said his first words fuck milk records will do just fine yeah yeah now to be clear. That is a real jesse james legend. It just happens to be one that. I just made up. No one else cares about jesse was the son of kentucky natives twenty two year olds carell james and her husband twenty-nine year old robert james aka bobber james well educated a man who received a masters of arts graduate with honors from georgetown college. That's not georgetown university lesser-known georgetown but his georgetown he went on to be a baptist minister wealthy ham farmer. That's right hint pla- bobber getting high as fuck on the james farm introduced young jesse to reggae taught him how to hacky sack showed him how to use water bong like a champion now hampton marijuana look the same but doesn't doesn't have nearly enough skews me t._h._c. to get your high bummer. Jesse would have grown up harvesting smokes. We'd probably would have lived longer had a happy life. Robert barrel james migrated missouri after visiting sarah's mother and stepfather who already lived there. They liked to fertile countryside. I saw the agricultural potential the rich farmland once in missouri after briefly living with relatives parents robert invested in two hundred and twenty five acre farm in clay county missouri and eventually owned a reported six slaves. Yes <hes> the james were slave owners and i know that obviously can be a you know a huge turn off and i'm not saints shouldn't be for a lot of listeners just remember. This happened a long time ago. When people grew up and essentially didn't really know anything different. I mean sure in that sense even in the times ethically not good not not good to do that but if we cut out people who were around that kind of culture well we lose. A lot of very interesting sucks fox so just want a little disclaimer. I know yes not good again. Longtime ago very different culture as you mentioned already jesse was born into the world to older brother named alexandra franklin james better frank who've been born four years prior to jesse frankly jesse's partner in crime for the rest of jesse's days two years after jesse was born born jesse sister susan levin new james was born on november twenty fifth eighteen forty nine for the first few years jesse's lives james kids by all accounts lived a prosperous farm life and their dad fucked everything up by heading further west the reverend robert james was asked to serve as a chaplain on a wagon train heading to california during the gold rush and he decided to leave his young family forever. His daughter was just a few months old. In search of gold he would claim somewhat that he was going to save souls but the contemporaries contemporaries around him seem to think that he got the big dollar signs in his eyes and thought he could just make a fortune out there little jessie two years old wrapped his tiny arms around his father's like begged him not to go would go he did and then a year later he was dead. He made it all the way to california but then on august eighteenth eighteen fifty he died of cholera and plas reveal california came down with the bad case of the devils but flu and the next thing you know macgill's pop blues boho clean off used and seconds. That's little donner party sucked doc joke shown backup in this tale. If you're a new listener don't worry. You probably can't blow off your butthole. If you come down with cholera rob's death left his family and financial shambles than a year the congregation congregation the deceased reverend robert used to preach to was taking the collection plate. <hes> you know past inflation plan on behalf of his now destitute family before robert headed west he borrowed money money from locals also pledged money to fund william jewell college college. He helped open at eight hundred forty nine. A college still exists today. In liberty missouri little small liberal arts college college about eight hundred students actors creditors coming to collect from his widow zelda and when her cash was gone many possessions were sold at a series of auction a state dates or a state auction skews me to <hes> get cash needed to live on a sounds heartless but other missourians hurting for money to at this time. The whole area was going through a the regional economic crisis. Thank you farms being abandoned before the crops were harvested in the wake of ruthless cholera and measles outbreaks in eighteen forty nine in eighteen fifty sure here is nice not having those outbreaks now. It's pretty nice. Thanks doctors. Thanks desperate now. Twenty five year old zarella entered a marriage of convenience on timber thirtieth eighteen fifty two. She had a fifty year old. <hes> widowed and wealthy farmer who lived two miles away gross <hes> a fifty two year old. I believe his is fifty my notes here but my memory says fifty she married a dude named benjamin sims who loved his hot young wife. Maybe loved his bit strong lusted. He lusted a woman half his age. Maybe a little less than half is eight also hated her kids. So in giralda moved into his home. She had to leave nine year old. Frank five-year-old jesse league not quite three year old susan with some friends who took over and ran what was left of her farm. Can you imagine imagine like that kind of made. We need to get married to the financial. Stay afloat and then you're you know soon to be husband is like all right you but not the kids. What a fucking asshole. There's listen sugar. Marya sure she would only if you did chose whining booker picking wilbur snappers again. How do you tell the kids take good news. Money problems are over. Get married to wealthy farmer two miles away a great big house butlers and maids cooks the finest food big yard lots of shade room to roam batons that is you can't come. He doesn't get kanye to no one's surprise. The marriage didn't last long israel the left benjamin within a year to return to her kids. I can only imagine the fights they had had during that marriage time period again south lebanon by michigan you brats want tears and my supper made me pow roast seeing sing me happy song woman wanna marry crybaby. I would've actually married a baby. Lord knows i considered it twenty five year old lady bitter bitter right for me to want to stick metal parts. Benjamin died just a few months after israel left him on january second eighteen fifty four in a horse accident saranda according to what friends of hers would say years later was overjoyed derailed away little time and had a had one more estate auction to settle the last of her debts was able to keep most of her land wasteful time getting back on her feet and then she married her third and final husband dr archie reuben samuel on september twenty fifth eighteen fifty-five r._t. Samuels was twenty seven at the time she was thirty thirty a little more evenly mashed his time upon their marriage her request he gave up doctrine whiskey and he worked at the james farm he helped grow tobacco tobacco also adopted susan jesse and frank and then they'd have four more children together even signed a prenuptial agreement guaranteed zarella ownership of the farm and their slaves after after his death something extremely uncommon if not entirely unheard of for a man to do at that time in that place a reporter comma decade archie was under zelda's dominion and now numerous contemporary said things like you know she wore the pants kind of thing <hes> after some early childhood unsteadiness with his father's death and then being briefly abandoned during his mother's other second marriage things seemed to settle down for young jesse now eight years old after his mother's third marriage and jesse might have grown up to be a missouri farmer himself but then the civil war showed up and changed everything for everyone the war would drag his older brother frank james into a life of fighting and then jesse would soon follow. Let's take a quick beak. Quick beak aac do that quick peek jesse's older brother frank the forgotten james brother who would also be one of the leaders of the infamous james younger gang franklin james lesser-known own older brother of the legend was born clay county missouri as well over four years before jesse january tenth eighteen forty three as a child young jesse <hes> excuse give me young <hes> frank showed interest in his late father's sizable library especially the works of william shakespeare franks profound love shakespeare it would inspire him to carry copies of the barge is plays in his saddlebags years later while being pursued by union soldiers and later law officers cute also memorize lines and recite them to other bandits but he's pretty funny funny image onto dusty cowboy sitting around a campfire hideout after a heist and frank <hes> maybe after a couple couple of drinks stands out. This is daegu chassis before me handled for my hand. Come let me clutch the half the not now yet. I see the still are not fatal. Vision sensible feeling asked who sat or dow but a dagger of the mind false creation proceeding from the heat the press brian. I see the yet informers. Palpable is this which now i draw tarshi blown by frank. We don't care air continental about nobility shakespeare. Dan l. frank received much better education. Most rural missouri farm kids at the time. James fame is only a mile for the somerset schooled. Frank contended regularly until he was eighteen long. That's old to be to be school kid at that time. Frank reportedly wanted to become a teacher was an avid learner and and then frank was going to attend william jewell college continues education studied the school. His father helped establish but instead. The war happened civil war in the u._s. Beginning eighteen sixty one after for decades of simmering tensions between northern southern states over slavery state's rights and westward expansion jesse james just barely a teenager only thirteen when the war broke out too young to fight initially frank was eighteen though and when the war got going the james farm had slaves james stanley felt that slavery was necessary to keep their farms their livelihood going and so frank frank found himself in a tricky spot of being expected to fight for the north whose victory could spell financial ruin for his slave owning family so now that we have a solid understanding any other circumstances that would pull jesse into his future criminal ways. Let's examine jesse's entry into his outlaw life in today's time. I'm so timeline right after a quick word from sponsor time. Suck is brought to you again today. By the belle gunness norwegian massage assange parlor let bill put her murderous upper body strength to use revenue down wall. 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When you had to go barber i moved shave and you hope you didn't cut your throat raft eighteen sixty and today's times halftime shrp on those boots soldier where marching down a time sucker timelines in november of eighteen sixty anti-slavery advocate abraham lincoln is elected president and the south not happy lincoln only received forty percent of the popular vote one fifty nine percent of the electoral college votes but he wasn't even on the ballot in some places in the deep south the following in months south carolina becomes the first state to succeed from the union in their declaration for secession they state the north have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery they have encouraged encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes. The next month january eighteen sixty one florida than alabama georgia mississippi and then louisiana secede it has declaration ration- of secession georgia states for the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non slaveholding confederate states with reference to the subject of african slavery they have endeavoured to weaken our security to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility and persistently refused to comply with their expressed constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property and by the use of their power in the federal government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common territories of the republic then on january twenty ninth kansas becomes a thirty four state enters the union as a free state lot of people in missouri and in particular county get real anxious there now surrounded on on three sides by states opposed to slavery the james family washing all of these developments very closely. They feel like the union is closed in on them to take their farm. In february eighteen sixty one texas secedes jefferson davis inaugurated as president of the confederacy at the missouri state convention missouri votes to remain in the union despite many in missouri wanting in to join the southern coast many including the james family on april twelfth eighteen sixty one the civil war begins with the battle of fort sumner and then a lot happens in missouri in the the coming weeks on may tenth volunteer union army regiment led by union brigadier general nathan nathaniel lyon captures a unit of secessionist at camp jackson outside of saint louis louis while marching the confederate guerilla soldiers into town to parole them hostile pro secessionist crowds gather a shot is accidentally fired linesmen ended up firing firing into the mob killing twenty-eight civilians several days of rioting follow martial law is then declared and union troops are dispatched into the city to calm things down and many missourians are pissed union soldiers soldiers. Not from missouri have been sent to control them. A renegade confederate government is quickly the established and is led by current missouri governor clairborne fox jackson and we're fucking great name by the way i middle last name all solid clairborne clairborne fuck yeah fox jackson strongest names of course he was governor. You have way better odds become governor. If your name is clairborne fox jackson than you do if you're saddled with the name like flappy weasel sour patch. No one takes flappy sour patch seriously. No one trusts the weasel anyway. Forum is always through. Somebody named that anyway former missouri governor sterling price is put in charge of the missouri state guard are pro confederate state militia union general yeah general lyon takes over the state capital in jefferson city pushes through legislation to kick out governor jackson and and replaces him with the pro union governor and then pro confederate general prize goes to battle against jim line that things are happen real fast lot of inner turmoil and in the midst of all this in may may eighteen sixty one frank james joins the confederate army goes to battle for general sterling price and the destiny of his family is now changed forever in the summer of eighteen sixty one the union and the confederacy struggled for control of missouri brigadier general nathaniel lines army of the west camped at springfield missouri with confederate troops under the command of brigadier general general ben mcculloch and major general william price bass approaching again. You know frank james one of those troops august night. Both sides formulated plans to attack the other about five five a._m. On the tens line in two columns commanded by himself and colonel franz sigel attacks confederates on wilson's creek about twelve miles southwest springfield rebel cavalry. Sorry received the first blow and fell back from bloody. Hill confederate forces soon rushed up stabiliser positions to confederate attacking forces three times a day but failed to break through the union line and then general lion killed during the battle major samuel d sturgis replaced him meanwhile the confederates route singles column south of skaggs branch ranch following the third confederate attack which ended at eleven a._m. The union forces withdrew. The confederates had won the confederate victory with a shot of adrenaline for southern sympathizers. This was in missouri served as a springboard for bold thrust north to carry carry price and his missouri state guard as far as lexington and late october. A convention was convened by governor clairborne fox fucking jackson and passed an ordinance weasel. Oh weasel sour patch game but he did come to his meeting. They come well. You guys fuck. Shut the fuck up flappy. No one's coming to your convention. Conventions convened by governor claiborne fox jackson they passed an ordinance of secession the battle of wilson's oh since creek had given the confederates control of southwestern missouri missouri found itself now in an odd place of having to governments essentially each pledging allegiance to different sides of the civil war. The southern government recognized missouri or at least part of missouri is being the twelfth state of the confederacy and the twelve star on the confederate flag did represent missouri however the union army would soon regain much much the state and pushed the confederate government into exile while in the missouri state guard frank james serving the battle of lexington where an estimated one thousand seven hundred seventy four union troops lost their lives lives after this victory franks followed price as far as springfield then he got sick then get left behind when price even though he'd won the victory lexington abandoned the entire area to union forces assist frank was captured and forced to take an oath of loyalty to the united states union years later when frank visited springfield as an official starter for the horse races at the annual ozarks. I am fire fair. He granted an interview to a local reporter and it appeared in the springfield missouri republican september twenty seven eight hundred ninety eight and he said how well remember that old courthouse and good 'cause i have to remember it an eighteen sixty two hours regular enlisted with general price in confederate army and was with him and springfield took sick with pneumonia while in the city was placed in that old courthouse price retreated in curtis. The yankee general took possession of the town as the yankees marched by the courthouse house twelve abreast. I looked out the window and i thought i would not have any comrades. Soon is there were enough yankees and curtis army to kill every revel in the south in six week's time i was able to be about but was prisoner and could not leave the courthouse then commands to plan how to escape and one not managed to slip through the rear of the building and and crawled out a window into the alley are found a yankee officers horse which i mounted a wanted to join my regiment but was cut off from price and knew that the chances were greatly against me if i attempted to get pass the yankees who are between me and press so i started north one evening road into cointreau camp on this side of the missouri river. I remain with quantrill for some. I'm tom and finally became. One of his regulars stayed with him. I consider cointreau. The greatest guerrilla leader founded the yankees are a fought the yankees for ears and the whole world for fifteen years a surrendered to governor chris patten crittenden not critter us. We're a surrender to governor crittenden in eighteen eighty two and was glad to lay down my guns. I wish his name was governor. Critter become a fan. Let's talk about quantum wells raiders now the group that would bring jesse james into the outlaw life the group that frank joined right after he left that courthouse july eighteen sixty two frank joins william clark larque quantrill raiders quantrill raiders were group of approximately two hundred men dedicated to southern the southern cause and by the summer of eighteen sixty to the union army had regained gain control of almost all the missouri by august would have no regular confederate presence missouri's confederate government banished into exile went down to texas but the fighting in missouri didn't stop instead of official confederate soldiers groups of men primarily slave owners with southern sympathies would band together into unit of guerrilla fighters and the most famous of these units was quantrill raiders led by william clarke quantrill a man who lived all over the place in utah texas ohio kansas missouri a man with southern sympathies who fought right alongside frank james for general price quantrill and his men ambushed union patrols they ambush supply convoys sees male occasionally struck towns on either side of the kansas missouri border and cointreau madman didn't attack soldiers they directed much of their efforts against pro union civilians attempting to drive them out of the area cointreau. Guerrillas attacked hacked jay hawkers their union abolitionist guerrilla fighting equivalents union militia members and regular old farmers. They felt were too loyal to northern aggression. The the confederate congress never formally acknowledged the union viewed them as nothing but criminals they certainly weren't robin hood's merry men and neither other groups jayhawker. Yes the jay hawkers freed slaves but they also so ruthlessly attacked confederate families burning down their farms stealing their livestock in some cases attacking and killing unarmed men women and children. The civil war was a dirty war and parts of missouri had practically descended into anarchy at this time while some of their plunder was sent to the south. Most of the plunder cointreau raiders gather was kept by the writers themselves offs and the band of these raiders included outlaws thomas coleman younger and also jim comments and apparently jim collins is one of my great great great not sure how many more greats rates ankles for real at least according to my regular uncle phil comments victim genealogy research talk about jubilee with more later many of the men who later ride ride with jesse james and his gang i met each other in quantum raiders contreras medication with the regular confederate army fighting in battles as the battle of prairie grove arkansas december of eighteen sixty two to on august twenty first eighteen sixty three quantrill led a massacre of lawrence kansas in lawrence kansas in the early morning hours his raiders tour through the free state town on robbed two banks lou other buildings and then set basically the entire town on fire and they killed between one hundred fifty. One hundred eighty men boys many of them on armed frank james was a member of the raiders was part of this barbaric attacked. There is some doubt as to whether jessie was involved however he was said to have bragged about being evolved later. Sources sources are murky when it comes to pinpointing the exact time jesse james joined the raiders. It seems as if he joined them sometime in either july or august eighteen sixty three in late eighteen sixty three an incident occurred that would feel jesse's hatred of for the union for the rest of his life a party of union soldiers invaded jesse's mother's and stepfather's farm in late eighteen sixty three looking for information about the location of quantum wells camp jesse just fifteen at the time was questioned than horsewhipped when he refused to answer the soldiers questions and then union soldiers roughed his mother zarella up and then jesse stepfather doctor samuel who also denied knowing where the raiders camp was located was dragged from his house rope was thrown around his neck back and he was repeatedly hang from a tree in the yard somehow the doctor managed to survive this interrogation and torture but it was never the same afterwards suffering from major head trauma. Tom and all this you know really of course bothers. Jesse and jesse is not a big fan of the union. It wasn't a fan before really not a fan. Now in eighteen eighteen sixty four young jesse is shot in the chest while trying to steal a saddle from pro union farmer. It would not be the last time he gets shot in the chest and live his legend gend begins also eighteen sixty four character named bloody bill anderson enters jesse's life jesse would soon join bloody bill anderson guerrilla forces wild wild time and place to be living in. I mean just talk about that for a second. Can you imagine what life in clay county missouri was like this time. You're surrounded by the civil war. Young men are being conscripted dipped into the union army while other men from the same town. Sometimes from the same family run out to fight for the confederates outside of the regular union and confederate armies have all these different malicious springing up no matter what side you're on. You're having to defend your farms livestock businesses and lives from someone. You don't get to abstain you. Don't get to be neutral unless you wanna get attacked in plunder from both sides. If you're a slave owner you either have to renounce your family's way of life entirely in fight for the union or become an outlaw and fight for the south with jesse james. You're sixteen eighteen years old the age of a high school sophomore you're hanging around dudes like bloody fucking bill of course jesse james became and there were all kinds of allies this time do i should i should point that out as well from the end of the civil war to the hour of james death various governors missouri proclaimed rewards for the capture of criminals more than three hundred times. Only a four of those proclamations would be jesting his brother frank. There were hundreds of other outlaws along with hundreds and hundreds more who failed to attract gubernatorial attention men who committed murders broke jails rob stage coaches banks and trains even killed a u._s. marshall and burned a county courthouse jesse. James is one of the few you name. It lasted until today but he was phenomenally crazy crazy times. I can't imagine that kind of life. I'll give back this bloody. Bill fucker man jesse went to fight for and with eighteen sixty four william blood he was born late eighteen thirty s grew up missouri moved to kansas in late eighteen fifty s arriving arriving to settle on his father's land claim east council grove anderson was sued immersed and bitter fight over slavery the gave the area the nickname bleeding kansas again insane meantime to be live there before the civil war he traffic stolen horses escorted wagon trains along the santa fe trail. When the war broke out anderson joined the anti-slavery pro pro union band of guerrillas that i mentioned earlier known as the jay hawkers and then he soon switched sides and joined a band of pro confederates called bush-whackers and this is all starting to sound what these names like like like some kind of w._w._e. Tag team wrestling match get ready to locate locate team. We have the j. hoppers making their way to the ring these guys love white and raiding burning down barnes and they hate slavery very popular bumped african american wrestling fans all so making our way to the ring we bushwacker very pro slavery loving extremely unpopular missouri african-american wrapping fans flat-screen in in the partisan warfare kansas and missouri. These groups were often mortenson robbery looting personal gain than the advancement of political cause us and that's why these guys will sometimes ride with one group in bouncy their site some members willing to die for the anti-slavery or pro slavery 'cause many if not most routes exploiting the chaos most of the time to make some quick money with whoever they thought was the best band to kinda ride with so how did bloody bill anderson get drawn into guerrilla fight and hopefully enjoyed that little thing that was very refund. I was very fun to snap into for second. <hes> the war drew in bill anderson just like he <hes> you know the war withdrawing the james brothers he has family believing in council grove now <hes> ah at the start of the war after cointreau raiders rated aubrey kansas on march seventh eighteen sixty two kansas jayhawks came to investigate southern sympathizers living nearby were sought out and accused of eighteen quantrill raiders williamson's father and uncle were named among the simpsons died the sympathizers when the jayhawker company arrived at the anderson far in march eleventh williams his younger brother. Jim were delivering fifteen had cattle to the u._s. Commissary agent at fort leavenworth and when the brothers returned to their family farm they found their father and uncle dead they'd been hanged wind in retaliation also the family farm had been burned to the ground and all their possessions stolen so pretty bad day for billy bloody bill and his brother jim track down the man in charge of hanging their dad and gunned down and then bill became the head of a local band of confederate guerrillas and his activities cast a shadow suspicion over the rest of his family than a union commander mandalay general thomas ewing arrested several wives and sisters and some of the members of quantrill raiders. We'll anderson commanded his own band of men he was he often collaborated with cointreau larger force as a result the group ewing arrest including three of anderson's sisters who are now imprisoned in temporary union jail in kansas city missouri and then on august fourteenth eighty it takes three this jail collapses and kills one of anderson's sisters along with several of the women quantrill and bill fucking pissed they assembled more than four hundred hundred men to exact revenge against the abolitionist community of lawrence kansas jayhawker president on august twenty first band killed at least one hundred fifty resumes burned down much to town and anderson personally was credited with fourteen murders that day gentlemen mm-hmm and tonight. We have a single elimination cage. Match the jayhawker the raiders bodybuilding the bushwacker all the sand lawrence kansas left it already to after this massacre anderson went to texas that winter mary return to missouri eighteen sixty four with a band of about fifty fighters jesse james joined him and then he embarked on a summer violence leading his group on a campaign to kill hundreds possibly get the you know the name bloody. Bill is <hes> yeah. It's some bad should happen to his family and he <hes> you know enacted. Some revenge big time on september twenty seventh eighteen sixty four bloody bill led a raid on centralia missouri where a gang of more more than one hundred guerrillas robbed the passengers of incoming train twenty four unarmed a wounded union soldiers were dragged from the train by the frenzied ruffians and murdered in cold blood. Ken bloody bill didn't fuck around the band of guerrillas followed by an experienced federal infantry about three miles south of centralia. The union forces were bushwack by the band and were nearly annihilated over over one hundred and twenty federal troops were killed. Only three of the guerrilla fighters were reported to have been killed in this battle. Both frank and jesse were part of this battle. Jesse is said to have killed union major a._b. Abby johnson and is credited with taking the lives of seven other men this day alone unclear a franken jesse took part in the massacre of unarmed union soldiers earlier in the day on october twenty six bloody bills guerrillas ambushed by union soldiers independence missouri. Several guerrillas were killed. Bill anderson himself is killed decapitated. <hes> jesse james and a few other guerrillas escaped the dead body of bloody bill. The blood drenched savage as he referred to by some pro union. Journalists was placed on public display before they cut his head off. Also anderson kept a rope to record his killings and there were reportedly fifty four knots found on the rope. The time is death. You can find picture taken of his body several hours after he was killed online if you do enjoy nightmares and he's only twenty three years old when he died and yeah and that is how you get a nickname bloody bill after death frank james follows quantrill and his raiders in kentucky jesse takes off with archie clement oney bills to tenants bushwalker known to be especially violent silence very bloody man himself after a winter raid an ambush late eighteen sixty four early eighteen sixty five quantrill raiders ambush themselves by union soldiers james wakefield's farm arm in kentucky on may tenth eighteen sixty five were many are killed and captured a cointreau himself shot twice paralyzed from the chest down. He soon dies from his wounds. In a military hospital the following month one of the captured guerrillas jim younger who recently joined the guerrillas future member of the james younger gang frank james revised ambush avoid capture. Jim younger captured yet but you know we're again you know become free and again joined that gang later for some more abandoning by the spring of eighteen sixty five all the principal confederate armies have now surrendered and when union cavalry captures the fleeing confederate president jefferson davis <hes> may tenth eighteen sixty five georgia resistance collapses and the war is is now over for for most in may of eighteen sixty five seventeen year old jessie rides in missouri carrying a white flag. He's ready to surrender. He's ready to be done with the war but the union troops he's riding towards are interested in accepting his surrender to this day. They opened fire. He gets shot in the chest for the second time barely survives crawling away to safety his legend and now grows further as does his hatred of the union. He'll make them pay and he'll never try surrendering again by early. February of eighteen sixty six now eighteen year old jesse has healed up and jesse and frank james meet with cole younger to form that gang the james younger gang and plan their first bank robbery. The war is over but these guys are far from done with fighting the jesse james. The james younger gang is fucking here sunday sunday sunday liberty missouri. The james younger gang takes on anyone standing in between them and the clay county savings bank. We'll sell you the whole seat but you'll only need the edge on february thirteenth eighteenth eighteen sixty six over ten members of the james younger gang robbed the clay county savings bank in liberty missouri of as much as sixty two thousand dollars a fortune at the time equivalent to over a million dollars today. This robbery was the first armed daytime peacetime robert in u._s. History the james younger gang pioneer the wild west outlaw bank hold up. I didn't know that before this suck tuck sadly a seventeen year old innocent bystander is a shot and killed accidentally during the robbery on june seven june thirteenth eight hundred sixty six james brothers helped bus. There's two other former members of quantrill raiders out of prison and independence missouri someone from gang kills the jailer henry bugler in order to do so on october thirtieth eighteen sixty six five members of the james younger gang robbed the alexander mitchell and co bank in lexington missouri making out with over two thousand dollars. No one's injured this time. Franken jesse said you impart this robberies. Well semper sixteenth. James younger gang loses one of their tough remember. This little story provides a nice little peek into the type of dudes who inhabited the world digest. Yes live in the type of people his orbit tough motherfuckers for the few previous month archie clement former lieutenant of bloody bill anderson when he was a riding with james younger anger gang he was leading bushwacker voter intimidation campaigns in missouri now that the war was over politically motivated confederate band is focused on the elections of eighteen sixty six it everything they could to make sure the pro union politicians didn't win any of these elections archie and his band of at times well over one hundred men were keeping union republicans from voting at various polls on election day. The governor missouri sent in some militia led by major bacon montgomery to stop bill and his men in the little town of lexington next in missouri and yes. I really was bacon. I'd looked at up couple sources verify it really bacon. I'm sure he was teased. More than a few times growing up l. bacon old thick slice. Oh maple cured ran clement and his men out of town but then clinton has been returned on december thirteenth montgomery just back to cement men to arrest archie who had went to the city hotel bar for a drink. Aren't you is wanted for the february. Thirteenth james younger gang liberty bank hold up the majors men find signed little archie drinking with an old friend call him out to surrender and clements who was only twenty years old was basically nope thaw look that shit shit draws his revolver star shooting wild gunfight ensues spike in shot in the chest archie manages to make it outside leaps onto his horse and then we'll riding down the street. A soldier <unk> from a militia detachment stayed into <hes> stationed up on the courthouse shoots him again and knocks him right off the horse and he's still alive when montgomery runs up to archie who was badly busted is it up from the fall clearly died from his gunshot wounds. They find him trying to cock his revolver with his teeth so he can keep shooting at him. Legend has it. One of the soldiers soldiers asked him or just said to him arch. You are dying. What do you want me to do with you and clements allegedly responded with i've done what i i always said. I would do die before i surrender and then he did die. Major montgomery ole smoked homestyle bacon himself later later later stated when recalling clements final moments. I've never met better grit on the face of the earth. I mean these outlaws. Whether you agree with their tactics or not you can hand disagree with the fact they were tough as fucking nails march second eighteen sixty seven james younger gang robs judge john mccain banking house of savannah missouri on may twenty second eighteen sixty seventy rob again with twelve members of time the james younger gang makes off with four thousand bucks from the using watson bank of richmond missouri three three men shot and killed in this robbery and then on march twentieth eighteen sixty eight the gang really pisses off nimrod the gang history nimrod long banking co russellville kentucky and takes off approximately fourteen thousand dollars. One person's wounded. No fatalities nimrod is furious. December seven eight hundred sixty nine the james younger gang <hes> holds up the davies county savings bank of gallatin missouri killing cashier captain john w sheets wounding clerk william mcdowell is he runs for the door and they make off with seven hundred bucks jesse james himself believed to have shot and killed captain john sheets mistakenly believing him to be samuel peacocks the militia officer who would kill bloody bill anderson a three thousand dollar reward offered for their capture. This robbery jesse's face but on some wanna posters also gets tim an unofficial p._r. Agent started in late eighteen sixty nine. John newman edwards massively contributes to the legend of jesse james gang by writing glorifying articles goals and dime novels about guys in fact we actually much of our romanticized lord jesse james and the james younger gang to edward. He's a fellow of the wrote a glowing obituary. I mentioned i should start the episode so let let's meet for secular born eighteen thirty nine edward was a native virginian who came to missouri in mid eighteen fifties to work as a newspaper printer he became a hunting and fishing companion of a man named joseph shelby and when the war broke out and shoved went out to fight confederacy edwards served as his eight part of what may have drawn edwards suggests james in his violent exploits and hatred the north was that edwards had fought against north himself and bravely he had more horses shot out from under him than any other managed shelby's command when the war ended shelby and edwards refused to surrender crossing over into mexico living there in exile for almost two years like jesse he too had a very hard time accepting northern victory so she come as no surprise at after he returns to the u._s. Edwards tries to portray arm successionist as innocent victims of the north and heroes in eighteen sixty seven edwards returns to missouri works as a reporter suny takes on the important political role of editor for the recently launched kansas city times edwards composed glowing tribute to his former over bosco shelby and his men and tries to convince ex confederates to get back into politics when edwards here's the next bushwacker named jesse james who would use the bank robberies drying the advantage the death of guerrilla leader bloody bill anderson edwards is intrigued. He makes contact with the james brothers and six months after the robbery the first public statement from jesse she appears in the kansas city times in at the young outlaw asserts his innocence while simultaneously claiming that the unionists are the real criminals this jibes perfectly with edwards on beliefs and he begins a campaign to convince the world that jesse james has not a murderer and a thief but instead a valiant confederate hero a few years later in the run up to the election of eighteen seventy two edwards devote much of his editorial venom to denunciations of republican president ulysses grant corrupt tyrannical administration his words not mine and then when he hears jesse's during sunset robbery to kansas city industrial exposition. Which will you know mentioned later. Edward turns his attention back to the fierce rebel in a hyperbolic doc editorial called chivalry of crime edwards said bushwacker might have sat with arthur at the round table and called on readers to revere the robbers for the very very enormity of their alary soon edwards who became a leading figure in the confederate wing of the democratic party would be full myth making mode printing a letter from jesse in which he made the baseless claim that gang members robbed the rich and give to the poor acclaimed it no series james historian has ever agreed with an eighteen seventy three edwards write a twenty ed page newspaper supplement glorifying the james gang twenty pages devoted these guys he later tried to get a bill passed granting frank and jesse amnesty for their crimes as well canals house go back to eighteen sixty seven and the james younger gangs ongoing crimewave and by the way that does also speak the edward stuff to just culture the time too because as much as edward revered these guys he wouldn't be putting out these articles if a good portion of his audience didn't agree with them and enjoy what he was writing so yes. Let's head to so let's take a closer look at some of their members numbers and then get back into the gangs x. points <hes> experts. Many of the members of the james younger gang met during the civil war most of them road together with quantrill raiders. The younger brothers actually came from a pro pro union family until a band of union supporting guerillas known as the red legs so many guerrilla groups <hes> robbed murdered their father now would send them down a path that eventually intially lead into cointreau quantum gang bushwack motherfuckers were involved in a number of similarly deadly conflicts mostly missouri but also in surrounding states most of the gangs members is it fought the civil war battle tested men the gang consisted of course jesse and his brother frank as well as the younger brothers jim john bob and coal lot of outlaws the pop in and out coming along on for a few robberies here and bound now for some other bandon out lawn and maybe come back in for <unk> drain robbery or stagecoach robbery there they didn't get captured or killed some other other members included john jarratt who was jesse james brother-in-law clo- miller arthur mccoy matthew nelson charlie pitts bill chadwell of course my kin james robert commons aka. Hey jim collins aka windy jim for real about the winning nickname and jim isn't even the first western allah with the nickname of wendy. We've met here in the suck way back and suck twenty four th ability kids suck. We met frank windy kale. I man billy murder okay now. Let's meet the younger brothers. Thomas coleman cole younger was a confederate guerrilla. One one of the leaders of the james younger gang cole was the seven to fourteen children born to henry washington bersheeba laden frisco younger <hes> he joined william quantrill with guerrillas in eighteen sixty one when he was just seventeen took part in the lawrence kansas rate masturbating sixty three left some two hundred men and boys dead and the city ransacked and burned when he was just nineteen so young all these guys to eighteen sixty four he moved on to serve in the raider confederate army was soon made captain led his men into louisiana later in california where he remained until the end of the war or after the war coal continued to associate with his old war comrades in the midst of the tumultuous reconstruction and missouri out of his own embitterment over the outcome of the war he went full full outlaw taking leadership role the james younger gang he participated a number of bank train stagecoach robberies over his crime laden career though he would insist until the end of his life that he never robbed a single bank and his beloved missouri. I don't think through the next younger brother is jim. James jim younger four years younger than his brother. Cole was described as a quiet. Well mannered guy. More of a listener talker grew up to follow his brother. Kohl's footsteps and join quantrill confederate band of pretty much pirates on horses. Jim younger was later captured by union troops in the same ambush that resulted in william quantrill death. He was sent to alton prison illinois until the end of the war afterwards. He tried his hand. The number of jobs including starting a horse ranch served as deputy sheriff in dallas county texas eighteen seventy thousand seventy one and then two years later. He joined the james younger gang. I find interesting to in these wild west suck how many guys would be law enforcement officers and also outlaw gang members kind of go back and forth the next younger john harrison younger three years younger the gym john was the eleventh of fourteen children again born to younger clan. They're poor mother. He was one of the youngest youngstown when brothers cole and jim join william quantrill guerillas during the civil war john and his brother bob or too young stay home to look after their mother and sisters after the war was over when john and bob driven their mother and independence missouri for supplies in january eighteen sixty six a soldier recognized the family and began to make some rude comments about their brother about his brother coal when fifteen year old john told him to be quiet. The soldiers slapped him on the face with the frozen fish seriously. That's what the sources say. This guy slapped his kid with a cold fish in the face and then john pulled pulled out a revolver and shot that frozen fish lap son of a bitch right between his eyes and then to make the story even weirder after the dead soldier's body was examined. It was revealed that a slingshot links shot had been tied to his wrist i had he you know obviously privatized himself so because he had the slingshot tied to his own risk the killing was ruled as self defense you know because has guided weapon on him so no charges were filed against john's the whole things such a weird little story there sheriff john younger shot a soldier out between the is killed him dead will david deputies tough talking to me and go arrest him sheriff. The soldier did slap him in the face with a fish. We asked no provocation for murder arrest arrest him at once share. That fish was frozen frozen. How different than isn't it. You slap a man with the frozen fish asian to face your practically big for bullet but we're still learning to bring them a trial so you go grab a sheriff. The soldier did have a slingshot tattoos wrist really really wrist any slept. Step down with frozen face-to-face all right recollect. I don't really see a crime here anymore. Why don't you tale john. Hello and tells mom good day and thanks for filling me. In then we have bob younger robert bob ewing younger thirteen fourteen kids youngest youngest boy two years younger than john and even younger younger younger younger young to- manufacturers and why whatever during the war he witnessed his father being killed by union soldiers and his home burned to the ground after his brothers formed the james younger gang he would join and spend the next ten years robin banks trains and stage coaches along cross missouri kansas and other nearby stage before finally caught spent his final years in prison where he like a lot of nineteenth century prisoners would die of t._b. Consumption and i'm just blown away by how the story have backstories where you know either parents or families were killed by their confederate or union soldiers. I mean this particular story led by a lot of union soldiers and just just like places burned to the ground. That's not how you win over locals now you get him to yours. That's how you win hearts and minds by just fucking killing their parents and burning their shit to the guy. That's how you create alex say create. You know the the equivalent of a terrorist now. Let's talk a little more about that. Little tough son of a bitch earlier gang member archibald j little archie not clement archie joined the confederate grows under captain william bloody bill anderson in eighteen sixty one by the time he was seventeen. He already become lieutenant. Who's very small man weighing just about two hundred thirty pounds standing just over five feet tall he made up for a smaller stature with fearlessness and this quick and accurate pistol shot he quickly took a prominent role enersen enersen military operations including that bloody raid on lawrence kansas clement also participated in centralia missouri massacre or twenty union soldiers were robbed and shot when bloody bill anderson harrison was killed by union forces on october twenty six eighteen sixty four climate to command the unit until the war was over and after the war clem continued to create problems for the government by intimidating emanating voters and elections and becoming part of what would be the james younger gang he would lead the gang into that first robbery that resulted an estimated sixty two thousand dollars worth of cash and bonds before having those tough last words before moving onto more gang excellence. Let's go over three more members. Arthur c mccoy was james younger gang member born in ireland in eighteen twenty. Five mccoy immigrated to united states. I settle in california during the gold rush by the eighteen fifties he was living in saint louis missouri where he works as a copper smith but eighteen fifty-five mccoy mary louise gibson and the couple would eventually have five children. He then formed partnership and started a painting business called farmer and mccoy during the civil war he became a captain under confederate general jo shelby and was said it worked as a spy after the war he would join with the james younger gang where you'd be consistent member until the late eighteen seventy s where he suddenly vanishes from the history books gestion franks brother-in-law allan h palmer also road with james voice for years born and raised in missouri palmer armor road with william quantrill during the civil war was paroled with frank james and kentucky at the war's end one of the first members he would join the gang immediately effort formed palmer also snuck in a little schooling when he wasn't pointing a pistol of someone demanding money attending bryant and stratton business college in saint louis and eighteen sixty seven and eighteen sixty eight that just cracks me up to par. How are you paying for tuition. Don't worry about none gong farmer. You only had no regular job. You folks folk saying rich how you paying click. I said don't worry about it. I wrap up on machines may stop. Parma was a killer. According to some of the men who were there. He killed more men during that lawrence massacre than anyone else on november twenty fourth eighteen seventy power married susan lavinia james sister of franken jesse james and the couple would have six children and he hardly ever talked to jesse and frank about fucking her sister like a rarely came up rarely kind of went there last up uncle uncle jimmy jimmy jim cummins was born and raised in clay county missouri near franken jesse james. They were close friends fought for the confederate militia together during the war. The cointreau raiders raiders roster listed james a cummins and james robert cummings. They're likely the same person i get i get mail is both dan collins and dan cummings. Sometimes sometimes i get mail is don cummings. Jim was a founding member of the james. Younger gang also had fought previously for archie clemens. <hes> some also believe cummins was a night of the golden circle super racist pro slavery organization that wanted to annex a golden circle of territories in mexico central america the confederate states and the caribbean and then turn the whole area into a nation built on slavery to be led by maximilian the first some austrian do briefly the emperor of mexico from eighteen sixty four eighteen eighteen sixty seven jesus uncle jim. This is awkward. You're embarrassing me your windy. Jimmy random not about wendy. Jim he became a farmer in arkansas after the break-up of the james gang and still wanted man and then he tried to turn himself into authorities on several occasions but they didn't believe who he claimed he was just several times. He's like yeah. I'm jim. Did you arrest me now like out here. Ke manage now. We're w i mean aimed feel good on one in one sense but also just kind of bears him. He committed crimes. Get away with them. You feel bad your conscience gets you in the go to turn yourself in there like gary goofball not up now. Really i killed some. I killed some. I wanna i wanna do a try. I want to serve my time. A lot of money. Gave out sure you cut up a nasty. I stuck my figuring queen. Mary's going gaga august here. He's gone get jim would publish a book about his life and crimes and ninety three with the absolutely terrible title of jim collins book written by himself the life story of the james younger gang and their comrades including the operations of cointreau guerrillas by one who road with them by true but terrible tale of outlawry jesus christ whose can no editors back then you can you can buy the hardcover edition on amazon this book for six hundred dollars not kidding and it doesn't exist in any other format because i'm guessing there's zero demand for it because i'm also guessing is fucking terrible herbal. Dammit uncle jimmy even bears. You're embarrassing me again. If only uncle wendy jim could have had access to our next sponsor. Today's times is brought to you today by renown author randy shock and his master course in how to write pretty good book titles and everything else really really well l. Let randy explain how he will teach you to become a master writer in his own words hello. This is an ad for randy chuck doc. I am ready shock. I wrote this randy. Shock wrote this himself me to teach others you to write right really well period. I have written many books with titles that i enjoy too right n- affiliate anew nikki the and the greys planet drifter nine five seven that is one of my books not kidding. It is about what i just said a moment ago. I thought of that book and many other fine fun to read titles at the y._m._c._a. Do you know jim torben. I saw him there once. He used to work at wendy's but something happened i think. Do you know paul harvey. He's dead now. He he was my dad's best friend. I used to answer the police phone. Okay time to wrap up. It's sunny out and i want to be done now now. See you later. Oh randy shock still cracking a cracking up about the guy from last episode. Let's get to one last real responser now. Times brought you once again by longtime supporter of the show lisa lisa believes that abed is more than just a place to sleep. It's a place for relaxation arrest and they believe that everybody has the right to rest. That's why they make too awesome. Mattresses plus accessories and basis to give your body the depressed it needs needs the all foam leesamattress improve featuring cooling l. s. a. two hundred foam for enhanced pressure relief for side sleepers. I'm one of those their superior hybrid mattress. Actress is the perfect combination of foam and spring for pressure relief and edge to edge support. Lisa donates one match for every ten. They sell organizations that work in causes like foster oster care prevention. 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Dot com slash time suck promo code time suck lincoln that episode scripts now to wrap up a few more james younger gang hang member mentioned before we get back into their exploits other members of the james younger gang alexander donovan donnie pants his brother tom thomas edward bud pence pence redmond red monkeys charlie pitts the shepherd brothers george and oliver charles fletcher taylor almost all these he's met again <hes> soldiers the confederacy confederacy also almost all denver had road with william quantrill now back to the time line. The james younger gang just kept on misbehaving june third eighteen seventy one four members of the james younger gang robbed the o clock brothers bank of corden iowa taking six thousand dollars well over one hundred thousand dollars ars in today's currency. No one gets hurt this time but the pinkerton get called in remember those pioneer detectives from suck one sixteen agency founder allan pinkerton dispatches his son robert pinkerton who joined county sheriff in tracking the gang to a farm in civil bend missouri <hes> missouri where a shootout ensues but again escapes went full southern missouri era on june twenty-fourth eighteen seventy one jesse james wrote a letter to the kansas city times claiming republicans were persecuting him confederate loyalties by accusing him and frank of carrying out these robberies riding but i don't care what the degraded radical party thinks about me i would just as soon they would think robert is not now what's interesting about this jesse's willingness to help create his own legend and his lack of truthfulness his willingness to put out some propaganda. He was a bank robber. His buddies weren't giving the money they took to. Any pro. Confederacy causes in many cases the people who lost their money also confederate sympathizers on april twenty nine eight hundred seventy two the james younger gang robs the bank of columbia in columbia kentucky killing cashier your r._i._c._o. Martin when he refuses to open the safe the gang made off with another six thousand dollars then as a twenty six eighteen seventy two jesse franken one other member of of the gang robbed the kansas city exhibition ticket office and get away with eight grand daughter struggle with the ticket seller. A young girl shot. Luckily she would live hurting. The girl bothers others just enough to write a letter into the kansas city times on october fifteenth eighteen seventy two letters published by the kansas city times while it wasn't signed by jesse. James historians ends fully believe he wrote it and he wrote as great deal has been set in regard to the robbery which occurred at the city exposition grounds. I will give a few lines to the public as i am one of the party who perpetrated the date a great many say that we the robbers deserve hanging. What have we done to be hung for. It is true rush shot a little girl though it was not intentional and i'm very sorry that the child was shot in is the parents will give me their addresses the columns of the kansas city weekly times. I will send them money to pay her doctors bill and asked to mr wallace. I never tried to kill him. <hes> only shot to make him. Let go my friend. If i've been so disposed i could have shot him did just let a party of man commit a bold robbery and the cries hang them but president ulysses grant his party can steal millions and it is alright. It is true we are robbers but we always rob in the glare of the day in the taste of the multitude and we never kill only in self-defense without out men refuse to open their vaults and safes to us it when they refused to unlock to us. We kill interesting rationalization here do we you know yeah we do but only in self-defense. It's almost like he doesn't sell defense means when i point my gun at a bank teller not tell him to open up the vault gimme all that goddamn money and he says he doesn't know the combination or he won't do it for some other reason. I feel threatened. I suddenly feel very unsafe. Breath and then i feel compelled to defend myself by shooting that dumb son of a bitch between the us and important my gun someone else and ask them to give me that. God damn money money in that field in my life is in danger once again if they refuse to cooperate with me. Nothing makes me feel more safe than someone refusing to give me a goddamn money. <hes> jesse's letter or at least let us to be written by jesse continues but a man whose goddamn enough food to refuse to say for a vault when he's covered with the pistol ought to die. There's no use for man to try to do anything. Winning experienced robber gets going on him. If he gives alarm resists or refuses to unlock he gets killed. If he obeys he is not hurting the flesh but he is in the purse all right i i he seems a little more self aware there some editors call us thieves. We are not as we are bowl robers. It hurts me very much to be called. Faith makes me feel like they were trying to put me on par with president grant and his party. We are bold roberson. I'm proud for the name for alexander. The great was a bold robber and julius caesar and the polian bonaparte and sir william wallace not all ben wallace and robert emmet. Please rank me with these not with the granitz grants party has no respect for anyone they robbed the poor and rich and we rob the rich and give to the poor as the author of the letter the public will never know i will close by hoping that horace greedy will defeat grant and then i can make an honest living living and then i will not have to rob taxes not be so heavy again interesting rational as i mean yeah i mean i you know i wouldn't have rob if what i don't have high taxes house was taxes without real hold up banks and stagecoach and trains like the claims to be a freedom fighter like william wallace but he's not waging war against you and he just take a random people's money. He's not hurting the government. He's he's attacking private businesses. He once was a political fighter. Now he feels a little bit like a like a thief in a revolutionary janeiro you know clothing may twenty seven to eighteen seventy three or four members of the james younger gang steal four four four thousand one hundred dollars from the saint genevieve savings bank think of sainte genevieve missouri. No one's killer injured in the robbery. The union government also not injured. No loot given any confederate revolutionary costs after the heist the gang steps up their game from bank robberies to train robberies the james younger gang robs are first trained near adair iowa july twenty first eighteen seventy three during the robbery the wreck <hes> they wrecked the chicago rock island and pacific railroad train overturned the engine. The train engineer died in the accident and the gang made off with three thousand dollars from passengers and funds retrieve retrieve from the express car and it was the first train robbery of the wild west. The first to occur west of the mississippi journalist john newman edwards published that that glowing twenty page story on the gang after this robbery on january fifteen to eighteen seventy four jesse james and four members of the gang robbed their first age coach near hot springs arkansas beautiful place by the way they took cash and jewels approximately three thousand dollars. No one was injured years later. After jesse's death gold watch taken from one of the stage passengers would be found amongst his effects on january thirty first eighteen seventy four five to seven members of the younger james gang hold up the saint louis iron mountain and southern railroad train at gad's hill missouri. No one's injured they make off with twelve thousand dollars in early eighteen seventy four after the gad's hill missouri train robbery the adams express company begs the pinkerton to please bring the brothers frank and and jesse james to justice finally express companies paid to carry valuables on the railroads and they rather than the train companies typically suffered the largest losses during robberies pinkerton accepted the assignment and sent one of his detectives to clay county missouri to investigate and make another attempt to capture the james brothers on march tenth eighteen seventy four or pinkerton agent. Joseph witcher arrives in clay county missouri do a little reconnaissance and then if you recall <hes> us going over this pinkerton sucked you know that this mission goes really really bad phrasing witcher which are planned to go the james farmer become acquainted with jesse and frank and then capture them and he's warned before he does this by local sheriff that that'll woman's ranaldo although will kill you if the boys don't the next day his dead body is discovered. He'd been shot three times. It starts a gang member. Arthur c mccoy. Was this killer but more more fun. Maybe two things arrested did it which is death scares off the express company but not the old abolitionist pinkerton who vows vengeance on the outlaws her you know the saying there's no use talking. They must die. That's what he wrote. Regarding james brothers pretty direct pinkerton style he doesn't he doesn't mince words our house we deal with the james brothers alan. They must die alright in the following months. When peterson's men are on their trail jesse mary's his longtime loves her elda yup april twenty third eighteen seventy jesse james mary's his blood relation this mother fucker didn't fuck his mother but he probably had already been fucking his first cousin who is now getting married to. They wanted to make the union legal. They can now legally try to have a beautiful two-headed. Three armed incest grins on april twenty third eighteen seventy four jesse. Mary's is cousins geraldo surrender amanda mimms in kansas city missouri a woman named after his own mother because you know she was her aunt now she would be her mother-in-law mother-in-law aunt not backwards at all doc. Hello here yeah known dang dang dang. Thank thank <hes> picture that being played at the wedding. <hes> don't meet a lot of relatives these days by the way i did find a few on instagram dow will deliver have another suck though featuring two different relatives and same story short. I rela zor elda zelda. The inspired legends zelda was that a game about sets of tracks zane. Jackson's zelda zelda have been engaged for nine years while the james younger gang was in full swing so they shared it who could stay engaged that long and not do it other than maybe tim tebow on their wedding day. Jesse stood tall and slim has dark hair neatly combed his hazel is pure announcement or dark eyebrows dorada a beautiful woman high cheekbones <hes> they made for very attractive couple is about fifty. Their mutual friends assembled for the occasion. The ceremony was performed by jesse's uncle william. Who's a methodist minister and who i'm guessing was also carr's second or third cousin or some shit. Industries have very confusing branches after the wedding the newlyweds honeymoon in galveston texas also said handful of jesse james baggies that he took his gang with him on honeymoon and the rob a stagecoach. What a what a workaholic work work work also getting some of that sweet first cousin love and down on the gulf of mexico reporter from the saint louis dispatch does with pinkerton do not tracks down jesse james. The reporter asked why would a woman mary the world's most notorious outlaw and according to what jesse told the dispatch report that dan galveston it was love so also a romantic the and again because the relative had the same name jesse's mom she she would go buy a sh- <hes> abbreviate version from then on a z. That does sound better than elder zelda z. Go onto become a strong woman who's also agenda and gentle loving wife and mother fiercely loyal and trustworthy she also would never take part in any aspect of her husband's. Criminal exploits little more than a year later. The young couple assumes the aliases of of dave and josie howard and they settled edgefield tennessee on the north bank of the cumberland river across from nashville jesse decides to honest living and try for the first time in his life j. j. k. g. he kept pointing guns strangers and threatening to kill them if they did get all this money. You'll know the same month yes he gets married in april eighteen seventy four his gang robs a stagecoach in austin texas then on june six hundred seventy four frank james gets married as well to any roulston omaha nebraska and he was the daughter of a wealthy independence missouri zuri businessman named samuel ralston. Perhaps franks one time has to be a teacher. His pension intellectual pursuits attracted him to miss ralston who was working as a schoolteacher when she met and married him now that both of them are married. Jane's boys were really done with thieving for good j k. They ended the robbing. A rating was still t._v._d. I am h. O. r. o. f. l. t. y. L. two months later on august thirtieth eighteen seventy four the waverley lexington omnibus stagecoach robbery blamed on the james gang and they're not a close to done few months later in december seventh. The tissue mingo savings bank robbery and corinth mississippi also blamed on the james younger gang ten thousand taken from the bank. No one injured however however <hes> th the blame for this robbery does seem somewhat unlikely as the james younger gang robbed a train in kansas the very next day so maybe they did that. Will maybe not december eighteen seventy four the gang commits. One of their largest ice. The kansas pacific railroad muncie kansas was held by jesse and his cohorts which made them fifty five thousand dollars richer. No fatalities these are injuries but fifty five grand quite into well over a million dollars in today's money. How are they gonna spend it all those fucking metal and pinkerton around trying to track them down surveillance of the james farm was become an ongoing issue because of the pinkerton in january eighteen seventy five a pinkerton agent named jack lad was posing as a field field work on the farm across the road from the james farm the farm belonging to a neighbor. Dan askew served as a hideout for this pinkerton spy undercover work mark one of the many types of detective work at pinkerton pioneered. If you remember that from that suck one afternoon this agent thinks he spots jesse and frank at the farmhouse and and contacts other pinkerton agents to come in and raid the james farm you ready for tonight's championship match. Welcome the clay county missouri showdown years in the making prepare to get struck by lightning because pinkerton bringing down under under they're taking on the world champion stagecoach train and bank robber though james brother frank and jesse who lived who died great bullets down from the sky there wouldn't be a showdown because agent lad fucked up. He was wrong members. The james family would pay the price for his error. In judgement on january twenty six eighteen seventy five thinking the james brothers were hiding out at the family farm. Six pinkerton agents surround their mother's home near kearney missouri in an effort to lure them out the agents tossed a smoke bomb into the house and then jesse and frank nine year old half brother archie samuel thing and it was a loose stick from the fire. Toss it back into the fireplace where it explodes whoops. The explosion kills a young boy wounds jesse and frank smothers geraldo <hes> windsor right hand arm so badly she later to have later had most. I have a right arm amputated this attack as you can imagine little bit of a p._r. Nightmare for the pinkerton 's they don't catch james brothers they do kill. An innocent boy almost killed their mother who never robbed anyone. The people in the press in missouri rally against the pinkerton rally behind jesse and frank james they were seen not as criminals but his victims of violence violence dealt out by union thugs. The james brothers don't waste any time of engine the death or half brother and their attack on their mother less than three months later in april twelfth eighteen seventy five. Dan askew the neighborhood sheltered jack lad the pinkerton spy found dead with a bullet in his brain in his home later that same month pinkerton undercover agent jack lad also found a shot and killed after last pinkerton give up their pursuit of the james brothers for good which is pretty crazy the the the pinkerton for like four fucking doc enough now for these assholes admits this chaos jesse and zee have their first child jesse edwards james born on august eighteen seventy. Five jesse is the father for the first time it only twenty seven years old amazing. How all this has happened. Only twenty seven years old fatherhood does melting slowdown his crime spree. He was a career criminal. Oh for sure on september seven eight hundred seventy five james younger gang robs the huntington bank in huntington west virginia another cool place making office somewhere between ten thousand twenty thousand bucks new gang member. Tom mcdaniel shot and killed another new member. Tom web caught trying to escape with the money. Another big score for the gang occurs on july seventh eighteen seventy six when robbed the missouri pacific railroad train and rocky cut missouri take fifteen thousand dollars if a keeping track the james younger game and robina rating for ten years now and they haven't lost any of the younger or the james brothers but then that changes in september of eighteen seventy six the good luck of the james younger gang comes to an end with their infamous failed attempt to rob the first national bank of northfield minnesota on september seventh acting bank cashier joseph lee heywood refuses to open the safe in ducks down and jesse doesn't care for it feels threatened scares him. He doesn't feel safe and he needs to clearly defend himself. He had been very foggy clear in that letter. Jesse put a pistol. All of the cashiers had shoots him dead and the shot is heard beyond the bank when the bank alarm goes off northfield citizens respond by opening fire upon the gang to northfield citizens killed in the shootout gang members charles pitts bill child well <hes> shot and killed bill chadwell. Excuse me cole jim bob younger all shot but managed to escape briefly. We do too their wounds their lot easier to track all three are captured over the next two weeks franken jesse escape make back to missouri unharmed but they're gangs over with with the younger brothers gone rather than give up on crime. The gang becomes the james gang and they just take on a little <hes> you know rating intermission lay low in tennessee for awhile but they'll get back to crime here shortly cole and jim younger would both spend the next twenty five years in the minnesota territorial prison in stillwater paroled in one thousand nine hundred one. Jim younger becomes engaged but is not allowed allowed to get married due to the terms of his parole and he kills himself in a hotel room in nineteen. Oh two at the age of fifty four cole reunite with frank james and toured the south frank <unk> and wild west show called the cole younger and frank james wild west company baba dived as i mentioned earlier at the age of thirty five in eighteen eighty nine in prison as the turmoil ensues around in the james brothers still live in their domestic lives on february six eight hundred seventy eight robert franklin james franken and he's only child is born franks walton. Inform your nashville on june seventeenth eighteen seventy nine. Mary susan james born to jesse james. Mary was named after jesse sister. Susan and z's mother mary shortly after the birth of mary susan jesse and frank recruit new gang members and get right back to robin and raden cow tow rate eighteen seventy nine and chicago all saint louis trained in glendale and glendale missouri rabbi the james gang of about ten thousand bucks over two hundred thousand dollars in today's money the following year september third eighteen eighty two brothers brothers make off with eighteen hundred bucks from stagecoach and mammoth cave kentucky in february of eighteen eighty one b._j. Woodson frank james alias rents a house for eight dollars a month on farland orlands street nashville tennessee a man by the name of john davis howard a- jesse james alias comes to visit these brothers continually planning new heis in march march of eighteen eighty one fifty two hundred dollars taken from a paymaster as he leaves a bank in muscle shoals alabama. The james gang is blamed on july fifteen dates ninety one the james gang robs robs yukogo rock island pacific railroad train your winston missouri of two thousand bucks in an altercation during the robbery frank murder man named frank mcmillan and also the train train conductor william westfall the gang robs another tradenet september they hold up to chicago and alton train at blue cut glendale missouri on september seventh. They make off off with three thousand dollars in cash and then take jewelry from the passengers on christmas eve in eighteen thirty. One a man named tom howard actually jesse james and his family rent a house in lafayette street in saint joseph missouri with the ten thousand dollar reward over his head z. Try to get jesse to take on a more normal life. Jesse agrees but only after one last bank robbery. Just one more in platte county missouri jesse had finally decided to retire early but as the cliche goes he just wanted one more score he hopes to come way was enough money to become a gentleman farmer. He planned the robbery with bob and charles ford young brothers in recent gang members who had worked with bit in the past. The four brothers visit the james home in saint joseph on the morning of april third eighteen eighty two bob ford with his brother. Charles enters jesse's home at about eight twenty seven a._m. While outlined his plans for the robbery with bob charles in the parlor of his home jesse notices that a frame needlepoint picture done by mother was hanging crookedly on the wall jesse turns his back to the ford brothers straight as is the picture and then he hears the sound of bob ford caulkins pistol. He starts turn around and ask turns around bob shoots jesse james in the back shoots him right below the ear killing him instantly so i mean he shoots him in the back as far as his back stern doesn't actually literally should him in the back suits in the head jesse's body hits the wall fall to the floor ends up lying on his back dead before makes to ground word quickly spreads throughout the town that jesse james world-famous allah has just been assassinated. He was the only thirty four years old at the sound of the gunshot. Jesse's children run into the room. How sad is that. His wife z. follows. She desperately tries to stop the blood pouring out of her husband's head. Bob ford leaves a z runs in charles spends a few moments trying to tell her how the gone had gone off accidentally then he to make a quick exit runs after his brother after after his death jesse packed on ice taken by train to carney where he has displayed and viewed by hundreds of friends admirers curiosity seekers because that's what people used to do as as you learned here on the south previously fucking weird nineteenth nineteenth and early twentieth century people used to love to look at the dead bodies of criminals and i bet people do the same anything today if they could get out of here if ed camper you know died next week. How many people do you think will pay a hundred bucks or more to come check out his dead body. Guess dow's why motor when most steer me and my chapels will be getting real stick happy. If i was still alive boy howdy where i fucked the next layer jessie was buried on the farm in a plot the family farm in a plot near the house so zarella could keep an eye out for trespassers or souvenir hunters. It's coming over to dig him up. In no time word spread the shooting crowds indeed began to gather around the home talking incessantly about the killing of the notorious outlaw young jesse junior. You're who was six at the time didn't even jesse james was he thought his dad was john. Davis howard he's on his own name. Was tim howard all these aliases. So why did did twenty one year old. Bob ford kill his former gang leader for two reasons. The first was at ford had killed a man by the name of wood hite january eighteen eighty two and sought a pardon for it. When word of the shooting resulted in ford's arrest he informed the officers he had access to the much more wanna jesse james and missouri's new gover thomas crittenden crittenden such a fucking weird name kristen kriton din doesn't flow off the tongue thomas critter here on governor critter governor governor critter who is sick of jesse's al antics secretly cut for deal kill jesse james and get a pardon teeny weeny bitter legal but that's how bad he wanted jesse yes he did he would let a murderer get away with murder. If that murderer murdered one more time the second reason was the reward some road and express companies had come together and collectively offered ten thousand thousand dollars for jesse's captured debtor life meanwhile some jesse's other gang members had been killed or captured in the face of you know governor critters relentless pursuit ironically jesse is he thought the ford brothers were the last two people could trust before his death to bob's hand jesse getting increasingly paranoid and his gang was falling apart had he not been shot by ford someone highly highly likely someone else would have would have shot him soon or would have been captured. Jesse recently killed gang member ed miller appear. Annoy also scared away jim comments after he began to suspect suspected of treachery. Got damaged a windy. Why you continue to humiliate me. I you're a shitty author and now you're treacherous a few weeks before bob shot him james had invited the ford brothers to move into his new home and saint joseph. The ford said yes wait for their chance to strike initially ford was charged with murdering both would high and jesse james but then true to his word governor critter parole him while he stood trial for murder as for the reward money received only a fraction of the reward damn dirty deal and rotate rotate coons returned to their hometown of richmond missouri. Bob and charles not greeted kindly residents found the killing of jesse james distasteful and they made life unbearable for the two brothers brothers. Charles ford fled richmond when he heard that frank james was searching for them to kill them in revenge for his brother's death and charles kept from town to town for the next two years changed his name several times the stress of wondering if frank would find it or not at the beginning of symptoms of consumption led to an addiction to morphine and then charles committed suicide two years after jesse's murder eighteen eighty four bob ford now run hide initially tried to capitalize on the notoriety. He gained for his betrayal of jesse. Take into the stage apparent in a stage show titled outlaws missouri several nights ford retold his story carefully omitting the part about james bax being turned when shot him his charade was short lived as he was greeted with catcalls calls jeers hoots and challenges then for short time posed for pictures in those low brow die museums. We've talked about in previous sucks as the man who killed jesse james people could come these little curiosity carney type places and get a picture with bob for far left missouri traveling all the way to las vegas new mexico then decreed colorado where he was shot down in his own saloon on june eight eight hundred ninety two by man named edward kelly kelly walked into bob slim with a shotgun ford's back was to ed ed said hello bob when four turned around oh kelly emptied both barrels of the shotgun killing forward and becoming known as the man who killed robert ford ford was initially buried in colorado but his body was later moved and reinterred at richmond cemetery in ray county missouri. The man who shot jesse james is inscribed on his tombstone. He was thirty two years old when he was gunned down. When jesse died most people assume soon he left a wealthy widow and z but that was not the case at all in fact the only valuables that they own. We're a few weapons stolen jewelry and some assorted memorabilia in late april eighteen eighty two the distraught z. James was forced to sell to sell almost all of her husband's possessions to earn money and then she and her children moved in with her brother in kansas city. <hes> donning only black clothing for the rest of her days poor z. never remarried and became a recluse which is exactly what i want you to do. If i die nice terrible reverend dr joe horse cock johnson to look after but never touch her do not fuck an advertiser anyway young jesse. This james junior forced to go work at the age of eleven helps support his mother and little sister. I do want my son to go to work bypass soon and the doodles penny ginger i want. I'll fucking. All three of those candy asses to go work. They can all tough enough little bit though the family suffered emotionally and financially for the rest of life she refused all offers to publish books or any information regarding jesse's life. She was a good wife and good first cousin to super as far as first cousin wives. Go up top shelf. One of the best on october fifth eighteen eighteen eighty two and defeated frank james surrenders missouri governor critter after fighting ratings since may of eighteen sixty one after over twenty years of being hunted he wanted to be over franquet banqueting credibly be acquitted of all charges and lives a freeman until nineteen fifteen when he died at the age of seventy two he died where he was he was born clay county missouri spending earning the final few years of his life after working on jobs all over the west turn with cole younger in that stage show throughout the south and then given tours of the james family farm and how crazy is that spent the last couple years of his life given a tour of the farm dude rob and murder for years and then gave tours of where he grew up. I mean that really is pretty similar like letting the unabomber out of prison and then having ted kaczynski who back to montana and just give tours of cabin where he made all the bumps and here's where i made my first bum i was sitting right are there when i found out i blown up and killed my first person. She didn't a sandwich. I was eating a ham sandwich thinking about how much i hated technology <hes> z. james in deep depression ever since her husband jesse's death dies on november thirteenth nineteen hundred z would be buried at the mount olive cemetery in kearney missouri sorelle two samuel mother author of jesse and frank dies of a heart attack age eighty six on february tenth nineteen eleven. She is buried at the mount olivet cemetery four years later february eighteenth nineteen fifteen frank james aims dies at the age of seventy two and just over a year later co younger dies on march twenty one thousand nine hundred sixteen the last living former leader of the notorious this james younger outlaw gang and while that is the end of this time so timeline it is not the end of today's story good job soldier older made it back so what is is there left to talk about regarding jesse james. How about the rumor that he faked his own death and lived long after bob ford supposedly killed him fans. Are you ready for tonight's event. Jesse james takes on grim reaper. Oh oh came step aside undertaker. Lee outlaw takes on ten. Amanda goulette can kill his own assassination. The nation find out it's nice cage match referee by none other than our fast shelby at how they do it in hollywood would seriously did. He fake his own death. The whole shot in the back wall street now the picture which is far too mundane for the rabbit jesse james jesse james jesse james and the for the rabbit jesse jesse james fans to accept and conspiracy sprung up almost immediately regarding james not actually being shot according to a man named j frank dalton jesse james for sure faked his death in the spring of nineteen forty eight the elderly claimed jesse james was still alive and well and living in a cabin just outside the meramec caverns missouri and how dull no because dalton alden claim to be jesse james and if you're thinking when i make him like one hundred years old yeah yeah it would and i should know before examining this possibility that when james died these scars from his multiple gunshot wounds chest and missing middle finger helped police identify his body so case closed right. I mean he's for sure dead right not necessarily not for some something. Dalton really was jesse. James don really was born around the same time as james possibly exactly the same time he was actually a hundred years old or possibly if he's lying to just it's a bit older and his body appeared to have been through hell. He had several bullet wounds a rope burn around his neck. A collapsed lung a damaged fingertip for some who met him. His wounds were consistent with jesse. James wounds as a very least does seem dalton had been <hes> pro confederate guerrilla in world war civil do in the civil war. Dude probably didn't shoot himself to kill all those scars. Dalton died at age three and august fifteenth nineteen fifty one in grant texas and his death certificate was recorded with the name of the man he claimed to be but that doesn't make kim jesse james. So how did you say faked his own death. Here's what he claims happened. He says the real murder victim was charles. Charlie bigelow an undercover pinkerton detective give who is posing and jesse james committee robberies incurring the wrath and vengeance of the real jesse james but did this agent bigalow guy even really exist his his name to show up in the usual credible places. I tend to find records of the deceased when i searched for dalton's theory hold it. There was a murder hoax conspiracy involving several people all close friends the real jesse james who conspired together to murder someone and who then all swore before the investigating officials at the murder victim was jesse james. The goal of the conspirators was to manipulate a._p. Late and or control the murder evidence in such a way that the law enforcement and judicial authorities involved investigating the murder would certify the jesse was legally dead. Thus setting jesse james free cool story bro night <hes> then what then just the ford brothers endured a shit ton of public scorn for years because they were just really good friends with jesse <hes> <hes> and his family fake their grief i guess and law officials and friends who had met him or known him you know well. We're duped into thinking dead. Body put on display was was really him now. Do i believe the ship no now for a second i don't believe jesse james would abandon his wife and his children and let his family live in utter misery and financial ruin for many the years which for sure happened. I do think good for you old man dalton again cool story way to enjoy your bonus golden years. I mean do do trade quite a little fancy life from self over one hundred years old. He tricked a fair number of journalists and authors he was looted in able to. We've quite detail quite the tall tale that age. I hope that i can live that long and be still be able to fuck with people on that age. Also jesse james body was exhumed in nineteen ninety five d._n._a. Was tested against that of a descendant and the results proved that it was highly likely that investigators educators were indeed examining the remains of the outlaw basically d._n._a. Testing confirmed the jesse did die in eighteen eighty two as much as familial dna testing can jesse esi james potentially faking his own death is an elaborate conspiracy revolving around the infamous allah but it's not the most elaborate one another interesting theory come from one of jesse's own <unk> descendants and it includes not only different fake story but also secret societies and even connections to treasures like the oak island money pit a man named daniel j duke a man who claims to be jesse james great great grandson has allegedly put twenty years of research into his family sorted midsized hyperbolic history duda. Eh duke takes the romanticized versions life and turns up to eleven one lada in his two thousand nine hundred book jesse james and the lost treasure secret diaries coded maps and the knights of the golden circle something jesse james left behind some secret diaries and some you know coded treasure maps and duke apparently has one of jesse's diaries and has copies copies of a few of these treasure maps and working to decrypt these maps <hes> do claims to have revealed a number of hidden treasures yet to be recovered as well as connections between the infamous train robber and freemasonry henry of course the knights templar of course <hes> the founding fathers and even jewish mysticism so you know jesse james was a fucking space lizard. Yeah the the book also explains how jesse james techniques involving sacred geometry esoteric symbols to hide his treasures and encode the maps do claims to coating of some of the map secrets do confirm the the existence of jesse james treasurer in oak island of course do also explains how he thinks jesse james faked his death lived out his final years under the name james l. courtney an eight hundred eighty two he became apparently became a freemason under that name do claims to uncover truths about james affiliation with the knights of the golden circle that super pro slavery secret society that is reportedly portadown buried confederate gold across u._s. Do claims that his famous ancestor was not a member of the group but actually linked to much older secret societies like the road secretions due goes to great lengths to win the reader over with not just a family history. He claims to possess which includes the one supposed diary several artifacts <hes> <hes> but also also information on the d._n._a. Testing jesse james in which he claims that their family was <hes> the body dug up five was actually not true in fact his mom even wrote a book. David duke's mother wrote a book titled jesse. James lived and died in texas and she claims approved that the body jesse james you know that was dug up and d._n._a. Tests actually somebody else. There's there's a lot to digest and his claims for millions of dollars of gold buried under lake somewhere to fucking oak island two stories about jesse james robinson donkey train transporting tens of millions of dollars worth of gold since duke is mostly pushing his book towards conspiracy shows and popular and tinfoil hat kind of circles is best to approach coach his story with a grain or two or huge goddamn mound of salt. Do i buy history. Fuck no not even for a little bit but it's conspiracy conspiracy that is out there so i thought i acknowledged it. Comes across to me as randy shock type of insanity. You know like like randy was writing about. I just high. Did you know jessie. James was a knights templar and also a freemason satanist and he used blood. Sacrifice is to bury magic gold in dwarf mine that leads to oak island arc of the covenant. Did i tell you what paul harvey told my dad about. Rosicrucians asian gold jesse buried in atlantis eschola mirian. If you don't believe me see you later. There's no need to try and make jesse's. Life is bigger than it was. It was already legendary in the twelve to fifteen years of his criminal career. Jesse james took part somewhere between nineteen and twenty six robberies including banks train stage coaches his crime crime stretch from mississippi to west virginia to minnesota some of estimated he yelps deal around five million in today's dollars between seventeen twenty people died as a result of his gang's robberies including seven of his cohorts law enforcement of private detectives failed repeatedly to catch jesse <hes> missouri earned the nickname the robber state because of his activities jesse fought numerous civil war battles guerrilla skirmishes <hes> who knows how many men met their deaths at his hands when he ran with men like bloody bill cointreau raiders the dude live long and bloody life and as an outlaw he never got caught which is crazy to me he he robbed time and time again for years and got away with it and was he a hero. I don't think so. I think he's a seriously tough son of a bitch. If i lived around him i sure as hell wouldn't across him but i don't think he was here. I think he was really good to be an outlaw. I also do feel some sympathy for him. It's easy for us to get on our moral high horses now and just simplistically say slavery was bad south wrong should just lay down their guns and accepted that have been and better people but we didn't live one hundred fifty years ago we weren't raised as if that was normal we didn't grow up and then run farms and plantations that we thought depended on slave save labor to work. You know we also were beaten by union soldiers. We didn't have our homes burned to the ground or family. Members assaulted and killed jesse did experience all of this if i was him i'm guessing guessing out of fucking hated the union too in the sense of you folks with my family now. I'm gonna fuck with you. I i get some what he did. I get his teenage joining of the confederate guerilla forces for his going on for your after your after the war i think he just like stealing people shit. He could have left the area to start a new life for himself but he didn't he robbed and killed over and over again outlaws cool word but really the end of his life. You know he was more of a thief or terrorist is a highly celebrated psychopath with a good p._r. Guy <hes> all that being said i still love story so bold and brazen and his crime so tough and there is something romantic about the about the notion of the wild west outlaw not hide behind a bulletproof vest or snipe people with a rifle or walk into a mall an open fire on unarmed people superior weaponry. I mean i know the bank. Tellers and railroad employees were armed either but you know the way these guys robin rated i. I don't wanna say there was something cool about it but their crimes seem how are somehow sima ema. I dunno more dignified to me in some way than a lot more modern. I don't know maybe it. Maybe i just watched too many westerns grownup. Maybe this romanticized a for me maybe to spend too much time dreaming about being an outlaw myself right off on horseback after taking a bunch of cold hard cash from a from a train i mean i know it's fucked up even thinking about right now now. Mike sounds sweet probably just rationalizing about a guy who may have been a total derby. Let's get out of here. Let's go to today's top five takeaways yeah he are high. Hi take away number one. It's important to to have a solid nickname or sell the name. Just you know so. If you want to be remembered billy the kid while bill hickok solid jesse james powerful good alliteration frank james not as cool sounds like an accountant frank sounds kinda bummer windy jim cummins dumb. You need a cool name to be a memorable outlaw reverend. Dr paisley could be an outlaw now. How's his new nickname of horse called johnson. That's fucking. That's powerful. It's alpha way better than micro pain. They're scared me. No one one gives a shit about the criminal exploits of micro micro pin is running off with fucking weasel with with flappy sour patch not horse johnson. He's with james younger gang number two jesse james married his first cousin and they had kids to survive to adulthood jesse edward james junior and mary susan james while two others died after birth. Maybe because her parents were cousins. Don't know that for sure but i think it is important to spread those genes around meet sacks. A one of the books we reference for this episode was written by jesse son john lot of misspelled words in it. When i came across them i did keep thinking maybe would have spelled out right if his if his dna halo more balance if a jeans rubio liberal more spread out the pool was a little deeper number three jesse. James didn't fake his own death. He didn't have coded diaries and treasure maps leading to oak island. Stop it funny thing about the number four jesse james was not the robin hood type character. He's often portrayed us the gang he belonged to didn't bury the money to pay for the poor to finally bury it for themselves to find later. They spent the money they stole. They didn't steal from the rich to give to the poor. They stole from trans. Banks and taste goes to keep that share for themselves number five new info something we didn't discuss apparently jesse james son jesse james worked for the very man who procured his father's death missouri governor tritter governor critter thomas t crittenden story goes like this when former governor thomas t crittenden was asked if he'd employed in his office jesse james junior whose father was killed through mr clinton's instrumentality governor critter replied if i were to build a monument denials as high as that erected to washington at the capital. I don't suppose i could effectively stop the continued existence of the story. The facts indicate that several years ago my son thomas j crittenden junior then real estate dealer in kansas intercity and now county clerk of jackson county in which kansas city is located advertise boy to work in his office on the morning following the advertisement of number boys ron hand and my son reported ordered to a kind of civil service examination tester merits. The boy whose papers were best was called forward and asked his name. My name is jesse james junior he replied my. I son was more than amazed instead. Do you know who i am. Yes sir you are governor crittenden son well then you go home and tell your mother about all this and if she is willing for you to work for me at the wages ages i offer come back tomorrow morning very well. Sir i have got to help my mother and sister and i'll come back and back. He was the next morning at this time. Mrs jesse james james was living in the suburbs of kansas city. Let me tell you what became of the boy remains my son for several years being honest and faithful to a degree then my son secured him a place place an armored packing house in kansas city where he is now employed respected by everyone and having a number of men under him and he is but twenty years age that is the whole story so just weird little twist there. We are little side story. I mean i don't know if i could do that. I mean could you work for the sound of the man who hired an assassin to kill your dad time talk by jesse. James and his involvement in the james younger gang has been sucked what a life got to be one of the most beloved search murderers in history. Thank you to the time suck team. Thanks to queen of the sock lindsey combines high priests other harney valley camp now here in the sucked engine reverend for dr joe horseback johnson paisley <hes> thanks to the bid elixir app design crew new update coming soon. I promise thanks to access a pair of all the recent coup last march. Thank zack script <unk> even coming out <hes> thanks zach script keeper flannery in those <hes> hammers of knowledge sarah rebecca lily for the research assistants on this one also oh thanks to the time suckers and med students nick lachey and jessica lung for lending their expertise to the antibac- saination conspiracy sucked sorry. I forgot to thank you two weeks ago. I blame enlist fina distracting temperatures and for some reason i blame mongol. When did jim gal gadot jim. Thanks to all the space that there's who came to the time talked to gathering on saturday and made it such a big success saturday before this past center saturday as you're hearing it now <hes> looking for social interaction with other suckers head to the cult of the curious private avid facebook group now up to twelve thousand members <hes> around twelve thousand members. It's getting close to becoming a small virtual city somewhat like mighty curious beautiful weirdos hill nimrod the next monday leonardo davinci painter architect inventor student of all things scientific guy with the name cool enough to be used for ninja turtle many years later a genius who crossed so many disciplines he epitomizes the term renaissance man today he remains best known for his art including two paintings that remain among the world's most famous and admired munnelly said the the last supper but he did much more than paint largely self educated he fill dozens of secret no books with inventions observations theories about pursuits from aeronautics to anatomy he he was far far ahead of his time. The rest of the world in the late fifteenth and early sixteenth century is just beginning to share knowledge in books made with movable type. The the concepts expressed davinci's. No books were just difficult for them to interpret. He was truly ahead of his time. As result is temporary didn't appreciate the full scope of genius the combination of intellect and imagination that allowed him to create at least on paper and vengeance the bicycle the helicopter and airplane based on the physiology and flying capability of a bat but did he kill anyone is he hiding treasure in the oak island money pit dono list next week to find out now. Let's get to some time sucker updates times editor update this i update it comes from someone identifying themselves elves as general nonsense mystery like it they right greetings master sucker remember when the u._s. government was investigating russian email probe relating to influencing u._s. elections since i do while rummaging through piles of data authorities ran across references to a russian top secret program it roughly translates to project week body supply supply otello something it was a project created during the cold war and was designed to spread propaganda across the countries of europe and united states regarding the dangers of accedes. The end goal of this project was to convince russian foes to not vaccinate their children so that in the event of a war russian armies would more easily defeat those who oppose russia. The project was created by none other than vladimir putin while he was still working within the k._g._b. When the berlin wall fell he claimed to have burned russian intelligence documents but since he was the one that created those documents detailing the plans it is questionable whether he actually followed through with the destruction or if he did it's presumed <hes> created new plans from his memory or ads is presumed. This is how the whole antibac- movement really started as the brainchild of russian intelligence in order to conquer western civilization. The plan was put in place and inconvenient patsy. Patsy was found in dr wakefield wakefield silverman maintains his innocence <hes> and has his own conspiracy theories regarding pharmaceutical companies that are out to get him and discredit him. This was all cleverly crafted and well thought out by putin decades before wakefield came into the forefront so the antibiotics movement is just another part of russians plans lands to conquer the west and the only way to truly combat this sort of subversive planets vaccine our kids not only will it help their immune systems but it will also counteract russian plans to destroy troy the west hoping that read it's entirely made up and false but i think someone who's anti vaccine believe it enough to actually decide to vaccinate their kids you you can't be crazy with facts and logic. You have to be more crazy and outlandish hell nimrod general nonsense. That's fucking great love the creative misdirect in the message nonsense. It's really the idea of creating conspiracies. They get conspiracy theorists to do things that are good for their lives and for the rest of us when we need to come up with conspiracies that make people want. I spend more time in the library. <hes> go back to school. Enjoy school takes them critical thinking courses and love self-improvement what if more people watch videos about that kinda shit on youtube youtube instead of watching stuff on kim trails in the building. I i really would be amazing. I love your heads at all kinds of topic hill number that was great all kinds of topics getting touchdown touchdown by <hes> super sucker meg a and this update meg writes dear master sucking tin warning in advance this e mails going to be all over the place. I'll start by saying thank you this week's. Week's episode gave me a huge laugh right when i needed it this. I started listening to the episode on my way home from work. It was on the verge of tears due to money stress over our wedding that is less than three weeks away now now but when you started reading randy shocks author bio from amazon those stress tears turned into tears of laughter by the time you're done reading. I felt much better <hes>. I love hearing stuff like that. That's that was great about tom. Selleck even in the dark episodes find some humor to inject as i continue to listen to the episode on my way back to work today got me thinking about how many creeps i've encountered in my life. It made me realize how with more paranoid brain it really is easy to see evil conspiracies everywhere. The first flashback came when you were talking about the world's biggest piece of shit pediatrician and he reminded me of my own former pediatrician. I never liked him because he was a mean old man. He <hes> tip over into creepy man when i went to was a teenager and he insists that i had had to take my bra off so he used his stethoscope to listen to my heart and lungs which no doctor has ever requested sense and actually on that note really quick several messages from other times doctors who who had other doctors in the past talk about that exact same phenomenon so fucking creepy. Luckily after that my mom said i never had to go see him again. Then you started talking about the catholic pre scandals it reminded me of my aunts neighbor for many years neighbor was a priest who was a nice guy or seemed to be nice guy was friendly with him he would hold mass in his backyard and sundays in the summer and would let me fish schoff his docks when i would visit her or fish off his doc yeah then he got busted for pedophilia. It was such a shock because you never would have guessed. It's the people you never would've suspected that. Make it all that much more scary now backtracking last week's episode i meant to write in last week but note the aforementioned wedding stress my soon to be sister-in-law and her husband antibac- sers part of me wants to make make them listen to the episode but i fear there already too far gone. They've gone to multiple rallies and are planning on home schooling their older son after gets kicked out of school for not having the proper vaccinations it looks i bet they said quote. It looks better for future lawsuits than pulling him out ball then pulling him voluntarily <hes> that's crazy. They wanted to get kicked kicked out so they can sue on fucking believable. Oh well on one hand. I can respect their desire to not have the government. Tell them how they have to raise their kids. I can't say i respect their lack of inoculations. In an ideal world. The government wouldn't have to force vaccines because every parent would want to vaccinate their kid to keep them safe. I think the problem is that were so far removed from where these diseases were huge deal agreed. We no longer see hundreds of thousands thousands people dying from them so we don't think catching measles is a big deal or an issue. I just feel kind of bad for my future nephews since they complain about him not having anyone to play within their neighborhood but are now planning on taking taking him out of the place where he has friends and kids to play with just for their own agenda well. This is already gone a long enough so let's move on to all the emails you have to read. Keep on truckin. Make a thank you meg further information. Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure it resonates with other listeners yeah covering a lot of interesting information and it is scary. How these people you know be around us that you mentioned earlier an email <hes> funny family whack a doodle lost technology update coming in from sucker robin kibi who writes doctor reverend sack dan. I've listened to your podcast as my boyfriend's showed it to me almost four years ago. I've like this is a knock noodle. <hes> it's only been out for almost three years but because it become a part of people's lives i hear people say all the time now like oh listen for like five years which i love. I love i love. It feels like it's just been around. I loved her comedy ever since can't wait until i turned twenty wants that i._c._u. Spectacularly air banjo person actor tony. Thanks tom thank fucking beautiful. You'll you'll tear up. I'll tell you that you're in tier up. I just finished listening to your technology episode and i thought you would like to know about my parents. I grew a mormon in utah which i'm sure you know means that was surrounded by my religion constantly my dad being smart person saw sauce through some of the leadership leadership of the church the nonsense it was going on and my parents became inactive when i was fifteen at first they still believe in the teachings of the l._d._s. church just not the leadership they found a group of friends who believe the same thing they went on to have sacramento on sundays together. I get that flash forward five years later my parents their friends are deeply involved in some new age shit. My mom keeps crystals in her car now and they believe in aliens etc. My favorite part is that they watch ancient aliens religiously watch it seriously my mom watches aliens with the bible on her lap taking notes about all the crazy shit they talk about believing every word there was an episode about the pyramids specifically that they are all connected by some sort of energy and if they were still connected there would be a power our goal. Do we more powerful than any tech. We have today season five episode. One and my mom bought all of it. She said maybe if they were all connected with some aliens or angels or maybe christ himself there are passages in the book of mormon the conveyor affi- this you talking about the pyramids reminded me of that incident and i thought the team might get a kick out of my crazy but loving parents. Eh love the work. You're doing with this passion project. Look forward to seeing you live. I would love to see latter day saints episode because they have <hes> you know so much information on them and have somewhat of shady history. I will gladly give you the articles in books. I have an about that history if you're interested thanks for your time. Keep on truckin. Robin yeah actually rob yes. If you want to send in those books you can send them into p._o. Box three eight nine one corden idaho eight three eight one six. We are going to be doing an l._d._s. Suck later this year and i'm excited for it just to learn more about the interesting history of that organization and thanks for sharing that about the pyramid power grid. I love how serious your mom is about it now. Some stock love coming in from roman catroga. <hes> <hes> this fantastic time sucker rights. Hello big daddy suck. My name is roman khuda. I'm from moldova. I currently reside in st louis missouri. Okay showed up londres tale. Love the the podcast and your standup. I and i cannot wait you here in saint louis working on getting there for twenty twenty by the way i know you aren't coming here anytime soon but when you do i definitely will buy tickets. Bring some friends long american because the podcast is the only thing that helped me from going insane at my job. I work long hours. The podcast makes the time fly by my favorite episode is split between our filthy and crazy vlad the hokey pokey and samrai's. Did you know that there's a graphic novel called vagabond that is about the life of miyamoto musashi. It is very good and i recommend man. I wish i had more time for graphic novels but i have heard that one. I just haven't read just wanted to say thank you. I'm glad that i found a new family here. In the space hazard army praised me bojangles keep on suck and much love roman aw praised raise beat the spaces roman yeah thanks for support and show and thinks that update next update comes from cold member mike copy and it's probably one of the cutest shoutout requests ever dear masters sucker written and before but this raises because i saw the court elaine little league team made it to the regional finals the little league world series the unfortunate lost in the finals else on august tenth but they should get a shot off since those boys played their hearts out on that field and went down swinging literally they may not be old enough to listen but maybe in one of their parents or family members does it may lift a spirit or to <hes> you know if need be p._s. I'll be your minnesota. Show hope to meet you. Since it's big deal all well. Thank thank you very much <hes> mike for right. Yes big congrats to the kids here. In cd who almost made it back to the little league world series a lot of amazing baseball being played by these kids in town. <hes> i saw that in the paper but forgot to mention it very cool. Hopefully they can get washed in play when these days what a what a great game to love baseball. This next update brings me. <unk> joy is it sounds like the time suck. University is taking hold in another mind or two from time sucker. Nick layton writes dear master sucker. I wanted to say thank you for the various influences you've had in my life. My brother introduced me to your stand up. Take thank you for that. Actually i paused 'cause i was thinking of. I always think of ridiculous shit to say right when you were saying such nice thing whatever funding dork and he was like move. Let's move onto the next one. No i'm glad glad my brother introduced me to stand up and then your podcast broadcast shortly afterwards you've remarked <hes> o of it re sparked my interest in learning about various subjects. They might be considered dark the biggest influence so it's been on my brother himself after starting and listen he started making serious steps to further his education. This is important to me because he never showed much interest in school. When we were growing up now he's going to college for green architecture seen the spark in him has been amazing. I hope this message find you will hoping you could give him a shadow. His name is dylan and he's made a couple road trips. For the heart of branson missouri missouri his are- branson missouri for the sole purpose of senior stand up well. Hail nimrod inhaled dylan. Get that fucking degree. You beautiful bastard do so much good in the world love it love it now very cool backstage just a couple of very cool vaccination info commoner from super sucker matt baker a guy who works in vaccinations. He writes insert technical jargon. Hey time suck power stream. The anti vaccine nine circle colts loved them. Thanks for the good info have a couple of things of lights note. You'd like you to know about vaccines and specifically as part of my job. Administer vaccines like tetanus hepatitis a. and b. influenza etc and someone who thinks critically and if we're being honest suspiciously i always read the manufacturer's information with these the portions we commonly referred to as package inserts are included in medicines to be administered and give us data used for more most of the studies what he's done the drugs for example a specific manufacturer now uses canine kidney cells to conjugate their flu shots helping bypass allergies to eggs and chicken and part of the population easy enough to ask for and if your nurse medical assistant clinician has read knows their stuff they can spouted off easily also of technical boring note individual dose the packaging for vaccines like the flu shot not generally required preservative ingredients see <hes> the mirasol the organic mercury preservative depending on the manufacturer. They ship refrigerated to eliminate the need for additional ingredients multidose vials. We usually contain the preservative in small quantities to keep the vaccine stable for the volatile us for several patients but you've i've already pointed out how miniscule the amount of mercury contained actually is thanks to reading. This crap kind of my job used to do workplace education training for my job until a corporate takeover. Shit can mace on back on on the floor of my patients. Doing what i enjoy most anyway aggravating my co workers also making the nervous with random unprompted serial killer stats also for the love of god if you have a question about medicine or healthcare. I know you have the best team freezers but i'm happy to answer questions provide phonetic pronunciation guides for medical jargon see education drain also also something i'm thinking about for a while. I think take my help is sucked. Please tell me if i'm mistaken. Dan okay yeah. Can you drop some more anchor. Points in timelines drop an anchor point to refer back to such as x date. Why date so we're three months from now help add cohesion to a narrative also realistically drawn a timeframe. Dan does is occasionally but i think more reference points in addition to listing the sequential dates would help show a flow of time a little better especially for those of us that have listened to suck on one and a half speed and the ad for so long we can't go back to normal speed just dot hope it helps happy to have a place my rabid morbid curiosity. Thanks always met <hes> man. That's a yeah that's awesome. Thanks thanks for the notes about vaccinations that people can actually get things that don't have certain preservatives in them. They can find out what ingredients is in those vaccines if that will make them feel better about getting vaccinated and also for the constructive criticism. This isn't about how to lay out these long and sometimes very long now narratives. I liked the anchor point idea. I will work on including that in future sex to left aft- little quick once sweet ass psychedelic viking mushroom update coming in from space as our christopher wallin rights. Hello dan the man suck it in the first. This is your fateful space. Under christopher wallin on the vikings suck you stated that the beserk irs woody mushrooms but just had to share this was <hes> amanita moscow area that they would eat think of center. It's the world's oldest fungi or fungi and the same mushroom uses super. Mario bank thanked thanked president putin. Don't know it's red with white spots and a lamp banana when he makes you feel drunk dental and online at ben done it looks to me but forgets processed your liver against whose jenner properties only through the consumption of their own urine. Donald trump aren't frapp bonk bonk dum boom so he'll eat mushrooms and then the following day before going into battle title to drink their urine and hallucinate which made them extra brutal. That's fucking fasting thought you might enjoy this yup. Fill my name. Keep on second. Thank you crystal wallin and then the last shadow from time. Sucker nate has to warm. Even the most chilly of sociopaths meet bumps nate rights. Master selker introduced my wife to your stand up before we were married married. Jamila fell in love with it. She's an avid listener. I will walk by our bathroom and hear snippets of the secret suck when she's getting ready or getting her car and his plane as long as our two and a half. If you're old is with us we bonded over the stand up in the podcast. This is why i was hoping you could give her shadow from your possible. Her name is jordan and on august twenty second this year. We'll be married four years ears so i think i've i've missed that what days it's joe. Is it way past the twenty second no one days as the twenty third so we're gonna be way past and by the time comes out okay so a little bit late but close. I couldn't think of a better anniversary gift to give her the master of all the sucks they happy anniversary. Thanks for all you do. You keep on truckin can't wait to indianapolis at the end of september your loyalist or nate well congrats jordan congrats on the anniversary guys hale jordan jordan gordon nader owned. Are you ready for tonight's. Birth pre matt's make his way. The cage is mate eight walking tall and rock power and ready to rumble joyti to him tonight. Epic book is short n._a._t._o. Led to take it off and get it on the celebrate that love naked sweaty grown eestyle hailu safina see you to weirdos indie. That's all for today's time sucker updates. Thanks time sucker. We all did <music>. Thanks for listening to spread the suck me sacks enjoy your week subscribe to scare to death whore podcast <hes> come see me in san diego and hollywood showbiz. Don't don't robbie trains the name of the south. The war has been over a long time now and you know what mostly just watch how. We just keep on talking if you would <music>.
Shaker Heights - Episode 5: The Crucible
"Welcome to Shaker Heights episode five the crucible floating floating falling on the ground I freeze on children's eyelashes and blurred. They're altered vision of the world. They see a different earth than I of candy and playgrounds and eternal smiles. I see the truth cold. Bare trees stripped of life and hard ground. That poem was written by a sixteen year. Old Girl named Lisa. Pruitt not long before she was stabbed. Twenty one times and left for dead behind her. Boyfriend's house in Shaker Heights Ohio in September of nineteen ninety in the hours after her murder. A small group of close friends gathered away from their parents away from the police and made up their minds. The person who committed this crime was the weird kid in school. The Kid who wore metallica t shirts Kevin Young one by one. They went to police and pointed the finger at Kevin and although was not one piece of evidence linking Kevin to the crime scene regardless of the fact that he had an alibi the small town police were taken by the children's stories and they decided Kevin Young was their best suspect. A tragedy was playing out in real time. Just outside of Cleveland and the name of that tragedy was the crucible on September Twenty Sixth Nineteen Ninety several detectives from Shaker Heights traveled to Ohio State University where Kevin Young was beginning his freshman year. Because of what happens next Kevin. Young's life will be quite short. He will never hold down a real job or have any long relationships with women no family of his own he will die at the age of forty four and two thousand and seventeen the detectives have consulted with FBI profiler who explained how they could extract a confession from Kevin speak to him late at night. They said Bring Lots of Candy and Soda. Be Good Cops. Try to make friends with him. Let HIM FEEL SAFE. And so it goes Wednesday September twenty sixth nineteen ninety. Deputy Chief Jim rosiest detective sergeant. Dan Villardo detective top Kosinski officer Ben Hur Secretary Roz and I drove to Ohio State University. We arrived about six. Pm and met with captain. John Petrie and detective Jim Younger of Ohio State University Police Department also present. Detective Sergeant Tim Reid and detective. Tim Ward who had gone to Columbus earlier in the day. The cavs police assigned one of their officers to watch the dormitory to let us know. When Kevin Young came in we planned to make contact with Kevin About eight PM. We then went to the Ramada Inn to get settled and have dinner as of about eight. Pm The Columbus police had not located cabin. One of their officers called the phone. And Kevin's room ask for Kevin and was told he was not in this office than set up surveillance on Kevin's room about nine. Pm We decided to return to the police department. Upon our arrival detective younger explained that one of his undercover officers has just located Kevin Young. He explained that. This officer was dressed as a maintenance man. It was clean a trash room that gave him a direct view of Kevin. Young's dorm room. This officer had just reported that Kevin had left his room. Gone down the stairs and returned with pop. He added that Kevin was wearing a blue woodbury. Run T shirt. I followed detective younger to the dormitory. Rob Houses one of the dormitories. Moral Tower located on the campus at Ohio State University. Detective younger I entered the third or the main floor. This is the only entrance into staffed by students who provide security and limited access to the building. Detective younger identified himself as campus police and we went up the elevator to the fifth floor. There we met with the campus police officer who had seen Kevin Young. He told us that Kevin's roommate and a girl had just left but that Kevin was in the room the door to the quad dorm room number. Five fifty was open. As was the door to Kevin's room which was five fifty four. The open hallway door entered into a small living room. Type area to the rear of this area were four doors. Each leading to a dorm room shared by two students. Detective Young entered the quad dorm room through the open door and knocked on the door. Way To Kevin's room. I waited outside in the hall where I could both see and hear detective younger. Detective younger displayed. His badge identified himself as a campus police officer and told Kevin that someone was here to talk to him. Kevin said to ask him in and detective younger said it was private and suggested they step out in the hall and away from his roommates. It should be noted that we had selected the hallway because the room to the other quad. Dorm rooms were all closed. No one was in the hallway and Kevin's other roommates were in their rooms with their doors. Open Kevin said he needed to get off the phone. Kevin Young detective younger than walks into the hallway. I deduce myself as Tom. Gray from the Shaker Heights police department. As I said Shaker Heights police department. Kevin said the words with me. Kevin Nervously said he had been expecting to hear from us. I told Kevin I'd been interviewing a lot of people who had information about Lisa Pruitt. I added that rich mullany and Jim. Brosius had told me that during his first interview he had offered to come whenever necessary to help us with the case. I told him that since I needed his help. I thought it made more sense for me to come to Columbus. Kevin invited us into his room. I told him that I thought it was private and best be done away from his roommates. I added that I had asked detective younger to get me into the building because that would attract far less attention than the Shaker Heights. Police I went on to tell Kevin the we could use a room at the campus police department and he appeared to get very nervous. I then told him I was staying at the Ramada in about five minutes from campus and that we could use my room Kevin agreed and said he just needed to get some shoes or call home. He dialed the phone. That put it down gotta shoes and asked if he could call later. I told him he could call home in every wanted detective younger. Kevin Young and I walked towards the elevator. Kevin said the stairs were faster so we walked down stairs. Detective younger got into his auto and went on to other duties. Kevin and I got into sixty seven. Eighty to an unmarked Shaker Heights police cruiser during the drive. Kevin and I did not talk about the case instead. We discussed college life dormitory life and classes. He mentioned that he was glad to be at school and that it was an opportunity to begin a new life. He explained that he had not decided on a major but was interested in business. He added that his real interest was in economics and we talked a little about economics. The Adam Smith Foundation. He started in high school and Mr for Resou- his high school economics teacher. We discussed the adjustment to college classes. Kevin said it was an easy transition because what he was doing. A college was a review of what he did in high school. He said he tested out of enough credits. That he will be soft more mid year he also talked about the honors program in Ohio. State that he is currently enrolled in Kevin. I arrived at the motel about nine forty five PM. We parked by number two and took the elevator to the fifth floor room. Five twenty was around the corner to the right as we exited the elevator as we entered the room. Kevin remarked that it was a nice room. He mentioned calling home and asked if he could wait until after we finished. I told him he could call what he wanted and offered to. Let the city of Shaker Heights. Pay For the call. I suggested a seat and make himself comfortable. He sat in the seat on the couch. Nears the window. As I sat on the other end of the couch there was a loud noise like a helicopter from outside Kevin that we could close the Windows. I got up closed both sliding doors and turn the air conditioner on low. I begin by explaining to Kevin that I spent the last two weeks talking to people then gathered as much information as possible in an attempt to figure out what happened to Lisa. I told Kevin I needed some insight from him in addition to just discussing his involvement. Kevin said he was eager to cooperate in any way that he could. I told Kevin that this trip to Columbus was important to me. I explained that we were under pressure from the media and there were some loosens questions I had about his involvement with the case. Kevin responded with a few comments about how bad the television stations are how bad he felt about what they did to Dan. He added that he would like to resolve this before the media gets a hold of the story given us how long we would be and I told him I wasn't sure I explained to cabinet. Since I came to him for help. He could decide when he was ready to stop talking and I would take back his dormitory. He mentioned that he had an eight o'clock class but added that he was a night person. We could take our time. We discussed class schedule and the classes he was taking. I offered Kevin pop and he chose a coke from the CAN I offered I offered Kevin pop and he chose a coke from the can the only way I drink it. I then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer that I was investigating a crime then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer and that I was investigating a crime in which he was still suspect. Kevin said that detective mullany had explained that to him. I told him that he had a right to remain silent in. Didn't have to talk to me. Kevin said he wanted to help. I told him that we could stop or take a break whenever he wanted. He said he knew that as I started to explain that he could talk to an attorney. Kevin interrupted me and said that he understood his rights. He explained that detective mullany had explained all his rights and that he signed a paper that he understood. I asked him to tell me what he thought about the incident. Kevin replied that as he told detectives mullany he was afraid that tax can workman had done it and what scared him even more was that. Tex might have done it for him. Kevin Kevin went on to explain that he didn't know how he could live with the guilt if Tex had done it for him I ask Kevin Y. Tex would do it for him and Kevin replied that he Kevin had been at Arabiya on Thursday. When Tex came in Kevin said he remembers that at the time he was sitting alone at a table and was real upset about a good friend of his that had been sent to the Middle East. Kevin said he remembers texts coming in sitting at a table with him and saying something about going over to Dan drivers and that Lisa was coming over. He remembers the Tech. Said something about hating to be around when Dannon lease are together. I then ask Kevin why he thought Texas would do this. Kevin replied that texts knew that he kevin had a crush on Lisa for a long time. Even though Kevin insisted the crush was over Kevin out of the text was also worried about having an alibi for Thursday night. Kevin explain it. He was feeling extreme guilt even thinking about the possibility that texts might have done this for him. I asked Kevin who was friends with that. Went to the Middle East and Kevin said it was Emmanuel Robinson. He then went on to explain that. Manny was not really a close friend just some when he went to high school with Kevin added that he really didn't even know if many was there but that he had heard that from other friends. I asked Kevin of menu into the service right after high school. He explained that many and he had just graduated together and that he didn't know manny very well. Kevin added that he only spoken to manny a couple of times throughout high school. Kevin just scared him that a kid his age was going to come back. Dead from the Middle East Kevin went on to talk about the draft and how because of his January birthday he would be one of the first kids drafted. He explained that there were going to start the draft next year by drafting nineteen year old kids. I ask given what he thought about the draft and he said he didn't really think they would do. It can then went on to add that he thought the draft was unfair since they spent all that money all those years on a volunteer army. Kevin added those volunteers and reserves knew the risks when signed up and that they should not need a draft Kevin Pause as if in deep thought and I told them I remembered worried about the draft in high school and that they stop the draft. The year I graduated I then ask Kevin if he was worried about the draft and he said not really he did not really think they would have a draft. He then begin to talk about settling through economic means supreme markets and why we were in the middle. He went on to explain that he remembers having long arguments really discussions with students and teachers at Shaker. High School on topics like this when Kevin was done explaining his views on the issues. I asked him if he enjoyed thinking and talking about things. Theoretical kinds of terms. Kevin said yes he he remembers. Kevin said yes. He remembers doing that a lot in economics. And I said with Mr Fabrizio and he said Oh you know him. He's a different sort of guy but we used to have a lot of long talks about economics world politics at anything. Kevin added that his own views were kind of conservative and had allowed him to have some long discussion with with some kids at school. That had really strong views and then he enjoyed doing that kind of thinking and that kind of mental thought process. I then told him that was what I needed help with. I explained that it would be great. Help to me in figuring out what happened to Lisa Pruitt. I asked him to put himself in the place of the person who did this to Lisa. Pruitt tell me a little bit about what he thinks happened. Kevin looked at me with a kind of puzzled look and said just between us and I said Yeah just to kind of help me think. Through the thought process. I begin asking Kevin if he thought Lisa was riding her bike or walking. When this happened looking at me but without constant eye contact. He said that he thought she was riding her bike and that the person grabbed her bike and the bike then rolled into the bushes. I asked him to go on and Kevin Thought for a minute and then turned and looked up the sliding door window and began to explain that the person who did. This really didn't plan on it to happen. He didn't really think about it ahead of time that he was just walking around that night and kind of wandering and Salsa and when these two people got close something snapped something snapped in this. Anger came out that he could not control. He knocked lease offer by grafter and something happened and she was stabbed with a knife and she was stabbed and she died so fast that he got scared. He did not want that to happen and he started acting frantic and crazy and running around and doing real quick because he was scared Kevin Positon. I asked what happened next. And he looked at me and said that he ran from there. Kevin added that he was sure that he will never kill again and that he was sorry. That Lisa died. Kevin said that he probably has a new life away from their Kevin thought from moment then repeated that he got out of there. Kevin added that he was sure that this person will never kill again and that person was so scared. When Lisa died that he will never kill again. I told Kevin that I was afraid that something might snap again that this person might hurt someone. Kevin said he was sure. The person wouldn't because the person had gone on to another life and things were better and this could never happen again. I asked Kevin to describe what he thought happened to Lisa. He said she was stabbed. And then he added. He heard on the news that she had been stabbed. I asked him to explain in greater detail and he said that he thought she was stabbed from the front. Kevin said that he just walked up to her and stabbed her once twice. Maybe more because there was a lot of anger going on giving us to use the bathroom and in fact got stuck in their due to a sticky door. We joked about it. He decided that next time he wouldn't close the door completely. He also got another pop about this time after a couple of minutes stretch I ask Kevin how well he knew the area where this had happened. He told me that he often walks around at night when he can't sleep but that he usually doesn't go to Lee road. He added that most of the time he just walks near her house. He added that he added that most of the time he just walks near his house goes across the street and sits in the stadium at the high school. He explained that he often doesn't sleep well and that he uses the time to think things out for himself. I asked Kevin what kind of things he thinks about. And he said that over the years he has had a lot of problems with dealing with kids at Shaker and he often needed time to think things out. Kevin said that happened when he would say or do something to others. That bothered him. He mentioned dealing with girls specifically but added that things were better now that he had his new life at college. I then ask heaven to describe the area and he said there was a sidewalk and some trees but he didn't remember too much detail. I asked him to try to remember what he could about the area to think in terms of the person who did this and I think what he would do with a knife. Kevin said that he would get rid of it. Only idiot would keep the knife. I asked how he would get rid of it. Kevin real quickly replied. That would be easy. There will be a lot of sewers around if you throw it hard enough. No one will ever find it still thinking in terms of the person who did this. I asked Kevin where the scared person would go to wash. Blood off his hands or to change clothes. He looked right at me and said that the way Lisa was stabbed. This person didn't get any blood on him and didn't get any blood on their clothes and that he didn't know where they would go if they did. I asked him if he was familiar with the lakes and parks in the area and he again said that he did not know where this person would go to wash change. Then ask Kevin to tell me how this person felt and how Lisa felt before during and after Kevin Thought for a minute and said he didn't feel anything before because he was just walking around and didn't know it was going to happen. Kevin said he then felt scared angry because he couldn't stop what was happening to Lisa. I asked Kevin how this person felt. Afterwards he paused and said guilty he added. He thought the person felt a lot of guilt. He then looked right at me and quickly that he thought this person would feel guilty because he kevin always made himself feel guilty about things he couldn't control went on to explain that he felt a lot of guilt about Lisa's death and that he felt he should have been there to stop this person even though he knows logically that he shouldn't feel that way. I asked Kevin how he thought Lisa Feld he thought from in looked out the window and said Lisa knew him and that she felt surprised and that she looked real scared when she realized what was happening. I asked Kevin what this person might have said to Lisa and you said that he didn't think this person said anything to Lisa. We then talked about the possibility that the motive was robbery or rape. He paused lean back on the couch and said that he didn't think Lisa had anything to steal that he didn't think that this person wanted to rape her that it was anger or something snapping and that he didn't think the person was criminal. I ask Kevin if he thought this person heard Lisa screaming and he looked right at me and said of course he would. He added that he is so. Close that the screams would be like yelling in your ear right now. We talked a little bit about what happens to people under stress. I told him that there are policemen involved in shootings that don't remember hearing the shots. He simply said he didn't believe it. We then talked a little bit about how people believe different things. He mentioned long arguments with other students over beliefs and added that he sometimes expressed an extreme view to get people to argue. We talked a little about crimes and how different people have different views on. What should happen to people that commit crimes? I then ask Kevin what he thought should happen to the person who did this to Lisa. Kevin had been very relaxed. He sat right up. Looked me right in. The eyes spoke slowly and deliberately and said that the person that did this should be electrocuted. Should hang or should at least spent his life in prison. He paused then looking away to the center of the room adding that if he is under twenty one years old he should be treated like juvenile. Because we don't have any real rights up until you're twenty one years old anyways and that this person needed help. This person need guidance. And that I should understand that the person didn't really mean to do this to have your Fab to have your fit and your fun. Each satisfied. There's one premium women subscription box to fulfil all your needs FAFSA. Funds Mission is to deliver happiness and well-being to everyone everywhere. And let me tell you Fab fit fun fun keyword right there. This box. Subscription box is a lot of fun family fund is as the captain just said so much fun. It's GonNa make you feel fabulous and it's going to make you feel fit as well and you WanNa talk about value man. There's so much value in each box. 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I told Kevin that that was exactly why I came to Columbus that we shared concerns about the person who did this that I agreed with him that I thought Lisa knew the person who did this that I felt during our investigation. We interviewed the person who did this during our investigation. I explained to him that I felt that it sometime. I would be interviewing this person and that in order to help this person I needed to get through to him that I was from our juvenile unit and was used to help kids get help that the reason I was involved in all the interviews was that I had convinced my boss that this was a kid who needed help and who was not a criminal. I told Kevin that time was running out. Our detectives put together a case to send a criminal jail. I asked for advice on how to convince this person that I understood that he needed help. And that the only chance I have convincing others was for this person to trust me. I explained that someone has to present the case to the prosecutor and that how the cases presented determines what the person is charged with I added viewed myself as a neutral outsider in the judicial process. Whose duty it was to gather facts and put pieces together and present it to a prosecutor explained that if the fact showed evidence of a cold blooded killing then I would be forced to present those facts but if the fact showed that someone needed help then I would present those facts. I told Kevin that my fear was that the person needed help and I would not be able to get through to them. I ask Kevin for his help and asked if he thought that I could get through to this person and told him that I valued his opinion. Because I thought this person was one of his group of friends. Kevin told me he thought that I could get through to this person but that it would not be easy because it would be very difficult for this person to admit what he had done. I then ask Kevin how I get through to this person. Kevin told me that I would have to meet again and again and again with this person and that I would have to push them real hard and get them real emotional and force them to want to talk about what happened. He added that he thought it would really be in the best interest of the person involved. If I kept doing that to everybody until I got to the person so that he could admit what he did and get the help that he needed. I talked to Kevin about how important this trip down here was to me. I told him that after interviewing people most of the day I decided that I had to talk to him and that it couldn't wait. I explained to Kevin many people including my boss believe that Kevin had been involved in what happened to Lisa. I told Kevin I needed his help to explain this to my boss. I asked him to help me explain and told Kevin that I needed help from him to explain his involvement to my boss. Kevin became very defensive and said in a strong voice quote. I didn't do it then. Kevin who he thought did do it and he said he was very scared for texts and that he thought text killed Lisa. I asked if he thought tax was capable and he said the techs had been at his house Friday morning and that texts had threatened to kill Dan Dreifort because he thought Dan Dreifort did it. We then talked about whether Kevin believed that Tex really thought damn driver did it and the conflict between that and Kevin. Thinking the text in it Kevin. Finally said he did not really think texted it but was not sure who else could have done it. I told Kevin I had a lot of unanswered questions and asked him what he would say. If I told him that someone had seen him out of House that night. Kevin quickly replied. No one saw me out of my House. Then he added. It was too dark out there for anyone to see me. He went on to explain that as he had explained to detective mullany. He went to bed that he woke up and was unable to sleep and that he just got up and walked around the house he added that he had gotten a sharp pain while lying in bed. About twelve thirty a M expanded. This made him feel extremely guilty because he felt he should have realized that something was going on that he should have been out there to do something about it but that he stayed in his house he also said that he had talked to his next door neighbor and that is next door neighbor had had the same pain the same time of the night and that he thought that was kind of eerie because he thinks it was right about the time that somebody was doing this to Lisa. Pruitt I told Kevin I was thinking about loose ends again and asked if there was any reason he might find his fingerprints on. Lisa's jeans Kevin. Got Very Defensive. Said his fingerprints are not on. Lisa's jeans and insisted that I take his fingerprints to compare with any fingerprints on. Lisa's jeans. Iceland Kevin that a lot of evidence such as that was still being examined and until such time as we had fingerprints to compare something to we would not be collecting fingerprint cards from any the suspects involved. I explained that his answers met more now. Before we got the evidence back I then told Kevin I wanted to think back to his description of what happened to Lisa. I ask heaven if he was familiar enough with the area that he could draw me a sketch of the area. He explained that he often walks at night. That he doesn't go toward Lee road. I then should him four pictures of the area I asked if he could look through the pictures and see if they gave him a better picture of what happened. He looked at the pictures then. Went Back to the third picture of what was looking northbound at the sidewalk. Only road where the bicycle was found. He stared and looked at that picture as we talked for the next few minutes. I told him that I needed the truth from him that I needed him to be honest with me. He told me that he was being honest and that he did not do anything to Lisa that he did not do it. I told him I needed his help to resolve this either way. I told Kevin detect a mullany had told me that during the first interview he had offered to take a polygraph test. Kevin stated that he was still ready to take the polygraph and added that he would like to take it at any time. I explained to Kevin that it was important to do the polygraph. When it was good for him I added that I appreciate it as cooperation in the in the investigation and that I could arrange to set it up for next week tomorrow whenever he wanted. Kevin asked how quickly we could get the polygraph operator down because he wanted to take it as quickly as possible. I asked Kevin if he wanted to go back to his dormitory and get some sleep. I also told him that if he wanted he was welcome to stay here. He said that if we could do it early the next day he could stay at the motel. He then thought about the fact that he had eight o'clock classes and was concerned about missing classes and wanted to get the polygraph over with but didn't want to interfere with his classes. I told Kevin that I had prepared for the trip. And it brought a polygraph operator with me. I explained that it was up to him. But I told Kevin if you wanted to tonight I could go. Talk to the polygraph. Operator and make arrangements for the polygraph. I explained that it would take some time for the operator to prepare the questions for the test. Kevin said that he would rather do it now. Whatever it took so that he could prove once and for all that he didn't do anything to Lisa Kevin appear to be in a very emotional state. He was smoking heavily. His muscles tensed up and he had a lot of intensity in his voice. I tried to just talk more about things for a while. In order to get a more relaxed for the polygraph. We talked about polygraphs. Police investigations then spent time talking about college in about Shaker at approximately twelve thirty in the morning. I asked Kevin if you wanted another pop. He took a break and went to the bathroom. Kevin was out of cigarettes and I got him a fresh pack. I told him I had two options. Either bring the polygraph operator down and we talk in general about the setup or go to the other room and brief the polygraph operator. Kevin said he'd like a few minutes to sit and smoke a cigarette. So I told Kevin I'd be back in a few minutes. I met with our officers room number five sixteen and explain to our polygraph operator. Tom Cahan Sqi where I was at in the interview. And we discussed key points for the polygraph. Thompkin ski ask if Kevin was rested. Enough to take a polygraph. I then return to talk together while the polygraph questions were prepared. I asked Kevin if you've ever taken a polygraph before then he said No. I explained to him that he needed to be rested. And calm and prepared to take the polygraph. We talked about the late hour and I again offered to let him sleep either at the motel or in his dormitory. Kevin said that he felt good that he felt relaxed and that he wanted to take the polygraph. And get it over with. I told him we had some time until the polygraph operator was ready. We just sat and talked about the adjustment to college. We talked about how easiest classes were and his preparation from high school and said that he was real excited and that he had a whole new chance to get a new life started and was hoping that we would come down and get done with this and he wouldn't have to deal with it anymore because he was really comfortable in his new life that he had started. Kevin also talked at this point in time about his roommate and how somebody college must do a really good job of matching roommates because he has roommate clicked right from the very beginning and he really liked the Guy Lot. He had a nice girlfriend. Kevin then mentioned that he had already met a couple of girls at Ohio State. And how much better things were going at college. He added that just today a girl had walked up and talk to him in one of his classes without him ever having to talk to her do anything and he didn't think about getting a number but he was excited because he would see her in class the next day and would be able to get her number and she would be a new friend to be able to talk to. After we talked for a few minutes there was a knock at the door and he was Tom Cahan. Sqi I introduced Kevin Young and Thompkins. Reggie Thompkins ski then. Brought in the polygraph equipment and began setting it up on the table. I talked to Kevin and asked him if there was anything else I could do for him and he said No. I told him if there were any questions or problems. I'd be in the other room and they could call me at about two. Am I left? Tompkins ski and Kevin Young in room. Five twenty. I went to room five sixteen to wait for the polygraph. To be completed we again discussed the interview. We were just discussing a number of options and I contacted Special Agent Jim. Right of the FBI at home. Jim Wright provided direction for the interview. If it should continue and reminding me the cabinet I could be getting tired. I decided to focus on the polygraph as a break and use the next session as a new time of talking to Kevin. About two forty five. Am when the polygraph test was over. Tomcat Cahan ski left Kevin In Room. Five twenty and came to room five sixteen to discuss the results. He told me that there was slight deception on all but two of the questions however he added that Kevin had an extreme high stress heart rate. That could be related to the interview or just being tired. Thompkin Hansi explained that he had not confronted Kevin with any of the results. I took the note pad with Tom. Cahan skis notes and questions on it and went back to five twenty to meet Kevin. Kevin was still seated at the table. Where Tompkins Haski had conducted the polygraph? I pulled a chair directly in front of Kevin and told him that I was concerned. I explained that he had not done well on the interview as I had hoped. I explained to him that there were a number of questions for which he showed deception. I told him it was late and asked him if he thought being tired had a lot to do with it. Kevin said he thought that that must be it and that he was sure he was telling the truth. I looked right in the eyes and asked him if he did it. And once again he replied. I didn't do it. I then reminded Kevin that we both had been up all day and then gave him some options in terms of what he might like to do. I told him that I was down here to learn the truth from him and to help him and then I would do whatever he wanted to do. I told him one choice was that I could take him back to his dormitory. And if you wanted comeback next week to see him a second choice was to take him back to his dormitory and see him again after classes. The third choice was to continue to talk. Kevin said he wanted to continue talking and that he wasn't tired and felt that he could best help by continuing to discuss the incident. We took a short break. Kevin went to the bathroom and I got him another pop. I didn't start by talking to Kevin. About how important this was for me personally to get through to the person who did this to Lisa and get them the help that they needed. I explained that most of the police department and most of the investigators had kids and that they were only out to solve a crime. Kevin said that he had heard a lot of things about Lucasville prison and he had been thinking about that and that it would be really awful for the person who did this to Lisa to have to spend the rest of their life in a place like Lucasville prison within talk in general about the need to punish adults and to help kids within reviewed how he heard about what happened to Lisa. He talked about texts coming over to his house about his mother. Walking him up about the fact that his mother knew because she'd gotten a call but that his mother didn't tell them Kevin talked about how text was real wild and upset about the whole thing. Kevin said he didn't think much about it until he was at Arab later in the day. I told Kevin I had some concerns about what he said to others about Lisa while he was at Arabic he said he only knew techs told him I asked him what techs told him and he said Techs told him that Lisa had been knocked off her bicycle bludgeoned and raped. I then confronted Kevin with the information. I had that he was insisting that should been stabbed and not beaten and that he was insisting that she had not been raped. Kevin denied that he said that and added that maybe sometime later in the day he had heard on the news or otherwise that she had been stabbed and that she wasn't raped and that he remembers at some point hearing that Friday night and that he figured that must be what the kids were referring to again started to focus on. Kevin and I told him that I was scared and I thought he was involved and then I will really hate for something to happen to them like him going to prison for the rest of his life. I told him I really urgently needed him. To tell the truth. Kevin began moving into seed looked around the room with quick. Darting is he then looked at me relaxed back in the chair and told me that he was tired and then he needed a break. He offered to sleep on the couch for a couple of hours. Kevin said he wanted to get up. Talk some more. And then take the polygraph again to prove his innocence once and for all I discussed my concern that he be arrested for the polygraph. Kevin again offered to stay in the motel room and asked me if I would help him explaining to his teachers if you missed the classes because he had a couple of quizzes coming up. I told him I would help him in any way possible. I asked Kevin if you'd rather go back to his dorm and sleep and he said he was afraid he would spend the rest of the night explaining this to his roommates. I asked Kevin if it was a normal day and he was up till four. Am The current time how late he would sleep. He said probably until ten or eleven am. I told Kevin that I would move my bag out of the bedroom room. Five twenty as a two room suite and that there was a large bed and bathroom and that he could have the sweet himself for the night. I suggested that he just rest and go to sleep and wake up when he was ready to go for the next day. Kevin asked me if he could call his parents and I said sure and offer it again to pay for the call. He then thought about the time said he did not want to worry them by calling at four in the morning and asked if he could call what he got up. I told him sure he then went into the bedroom in five. Twenty and close the door. I straighten up room five twenty little and winter room five sixteen and advised Deputy Chief. Roche's that I was done for the night. I left a note for Kevin Call Room five ten if he needed something. Before I returned it was four forty five. Am Been Retired for the night. I got up about eight a m a little before eight thirty. The phone rang and it was Kevin. He said he was up and ready to go. I told him I was taking a shower and ask. If you've got a chance to take a shower. He said no but he would love to. I told him never towels. So Shampoo and everything in the bathroom sweet and it was paid for and he might as well use it and make himself comfortable and I will be down shortly. I got dressed and went down to room. Five twenty as Kevin was coming out of the back room. He told me he was ready to go and he felt good after the shower. I asked him if you'd like to start with some breakfast. And he said that. That sounded like a good idea. There was a complimentary paper from the motel. I gave them the paper and asked if he wanted to look at it. I asked him again if he still wanted to. Take the polygraph. He said yes. He really needed to prove that he was innocent. I told him I thought he'd be more relaxed. If thompkins Sanski went out to breakfast with us he agreed. I explained that Tomka Handy had gotten up early and gone for a walk. I Left Kevin. Reading the paper for about twenty minutes until I located Tom. I then returned to Kevin's room and told him that Tom Clancy would be along in a couple of minutes. Kevin I discussed the Middle East and a couple of other current news items until Tompkins ski knocked on the door. We ask Kevin where he wanted to eat and he said anything was fine as we walked out of the room door Kevin Remember that he had forgotten to call whom I started to walk back into the room and said I would charge the call to the city. Kevin thought for a minute then said No. He'd rather wait until after the polygraph. When it was all over Kevin Young Tom Kamsky and I then walked to the area of the front desk. Where the Motel restaurant was located and we debated between eating there. Or at the Bob Evans. Next Door Kevin said he liked Bob Evans. So we walk. Next door came at breakfast of coffee and orange juice in French. Toast with about an hour to eat breakfast. Relax and talk. Kevin talked a lot about computer games in dungeons and Dragons Tompkins. He expressed an interest in dungeons and dragons and Kevin explained in detail about using the book. Being the Dragon Master and being a player he said a lot of the kids asked him to be dragon. Master he added that it was tough to be a player after. You've been a dragon master because you knew the book. He said that. A dragon master to come up with a lot of obstacles when players had been dragged masters. Kevin also talked about video games and Nintendo. He was proud of the fact that he had mastered Super Mario Three. He said that it took him like three hours to complete the first time but that after he played at once he could do it in about twenty minutes. He said he played intend to a lot. But that it was really his brother's game. He jokingly said that he has to get along with his little brother or his brother won't let them play. Kevin said he realized he was a little old for some of these video games but said they were at great challenge and a lot of fun. We took our time and walk back to the Moto. Tompkins ski went to prepare for the polygraph and Kevin. I began just talking about things in general I was working to have him very relaxed for the test. I ask Kevin if you felt pretty good about taking the polygraph and he did. We discussed again calling his mother and he repeated that he wanted to wait until after the polygraph. Kevin asked if we would be done after the polygraph. If we could talk a little and I said it was up to him and he asked if I could get some more pop and make sure that we had cigarettes so that we could take some time to talk after the test. He said he already missed his classes. And basically the whole day was spent and if we need to talk about that we could Kevin also said he'd like to talk awhile before he took the polygraph by now he was about ten. Am and we talk until about noon. During that time we discussed the incident again. We talked about how Kevin learned about the incident. And who is friends are? I asked who his best friend was and Kevin mentioned a letter. He was writing to John Hilliard. He explained that he was writing the letter but probably wouldn't send it because he expected to see him in a couple of weeks. He added that in the letter. He told John how well things are going at college. He also said he wrote about his roommate in his roommate's girlfriend. He said he wrote about her. Pda public displays of affection. Kevin added that she didn't really bother him but he just kind of jokingly said those kind of things because people expected to hear that from him. We then got to talking about computers. He said he had an apple computer at home. And it just learned to write in print on it but that was about all. He added that he had to give the computer to assist her. A ninth grader Shaker. Before he left to come down to Columbus I then asked him when he had come down to Columbus. He said he brought all of his stuff on the ninth of September. To try out for band. He said that he changed his mind about band left his stuff in the dormitory and went home. I asked him why he changed his mind and he said it was a lot of things. He said that he was nervous. About being away from home that most of the kids had been down there practicing for two weeks he added that bad also took a lot of time and was only worth two credits he also said he was never really into marching band that he enjoyed music but not marching. He seem nervous discussing band and change the subject. He mentioned a couple of girls that had come up to him in classes and talk to him. He added that they just came up to him and that he did not have to talk I. He went on to talk about how glad he was to be away from Shaker. Who's excited to have a whole new life and was glad to be away from the problems. He had schicker. He felt the kids Shaker. Were tough and related that he had a lot of friends but that they make him feel like an outcast I asked if he was referring to the G G C Kevin laughed and then talk about the girls and boys in about Prom night. He brought up the after Prom Party and told me that he has a tendency to build up his expectations and that he really felt angry. About what the girls did to him. He brought up Arabic and said that he basically hung out there the summer. I asked him how Dan Lisa fit in he described. Dan is best friend of his for a long time and that during the time that Lisa was in town he and dance a lot of time together. He went on to say that between Lisa being back in town and Dan being in the hospital that he really hadn't seen Dan much lately. I then ask Kevin what clothes he brought back from Columbus for his last week. Here I explained that we did not find any of his clothes when we wrote his house. He said all of his clothes were in the clothes. Shoot I told him the kids all remember him wearing one set of clothes he said most of the week. He wore a skateboarder t shirt. Blue Jeans and MOCCASINS. He said on the cool nights he wore a blue plaid flannel shirt. He added that matched what we knew and I said basically I thought from it and asked if he saw Dan the day Dan got out of the hospital. Kevin explained that even though he considered Dan best friend that he had not felt it important to try to get in touch with Dan or to talk to him the day that he got out. Kevin said he was aware that everybody at the high school was excited to see Dan and that Leeson Dan had been around together and at least it was very excited to see him. We talk next about tax. Ken Workman Kevin was in a very talkative mood. During this time period and I was basically listening and letting him talk around noon. Kevin said that he felt good that he was ready to take the polygraph. I left him in room. Five twenty. I told him that I did go to Tom. Geoghan Skis Room and talked to him about setting up for the test. At this time I learned that we had a problem and had to be out of the room by two PM. Jim Brochures had made arrangements for another room if needed also while heaven was waiting for me and five twenty. I Call Jim. Right from five sixteen. I discussed my concern that Kevin felt safe here and was prolonging the interview. I felt that Kevin did not want the interview to end. He felt the Kevin felt safe with me. We agree that we had to confront him and end. The interview. Arrangements were also made with Thompkins skied around the polygraph. And that if it came up clearing Kevin Young of any involvement that he should discuss that with Kevin and that if it came back with obvious deception that Tomkins ski should confront him with the deception and be prepared for the fact that Kevin might look like. He's about ready to admit. And that at that point that Tom Clancy should stop the confrontation and leave the room. And that Kevin thing for a few minutes until I return to the room to complete the confrontation I then went back and talk to Kevin and told him that either we had to be done by two PM or that. We had to move to another room. I gave him the option of taking the test. Right away or having lunch I while. Tom caskey changed rooms and set up his equipment in the other room. Kevin Thought Lunch sounded good and ask. We could go for Pizza. Specifically Pizza Hut. If there was one around I went to ask Thompkin Haski to change rooms and Kevin asked me to get some more coke and cigarettes in case we needed to talk. After the polygraph we again talked about calling home and Kevin said he wanted to wait until after the polygraph test. I saw Tom Jansky in return to the room. Kevin and I then walked to the front desk asked if there was a pizza hut and got directions to one nearby on high street. We agreed to split a pizza and Kevin ordered a medium Pepperoni Pan Pizza. We took our time and again talked about college and college life and being away from home and he talked about how it was scary. It was basically casual conversation. Kevin kept coming back to talking about his friends from Shaker. And how good it felt to be away from Shaker. Returned to the motel about one thirty PM and went to room for twenty one as we walk there. Kevin said that if the test didn't work well he would be willing to spend another night. He added that he felt very comfortable talking and felt confident. That if we talked long enough that we would be able to resolve everything when we got to the room. Tom Hinchey was waiting there for us. Kevin was very relaxed. He asked if he could use the bathroom. I because of the large coke for lunch Kevin went into the bathroom. I met briefly with Tom and told him. I thought Kevin was very relaxed and ready for the polygraph when Kevin came out of the bathroom. He noticeably more tense than he had just been moments earlier. He was all tensed up and rubbing his hands together nervously. I asked Kevin if he still want to take the test and he said he was ready to go. I wished good luck and told him. I would return after the test at a few minutes before three. Pm when the polygraph test was complete Tomkins he left Kevin by himself in room. Four twenty one and came to room five sixteen to discuss the results. He said that he ran two tests that he had cleared exceptions on most of the questions dealing with Lisa that he confronted Kevin with a deception and that Kevin got tears in his eyes but said nothing Tompkins he said he had confronted Kevin directly about his involvement with Lisa and Kevin Again said. I didn't do it at about three PM. Jim Brochures and I went into the room. Kevin was sitting by the polygraph machine on a chair with a concerned almost teary look in his eyes. I ask Kevin if he remembered deputy chief brochures and Kevin said he did. I asked Kevin if he remembered deputy chief brochures and Kevin said he did. I told Kevin due to the pressure on this incident that they had sent deputy chief down to Columbus. Deputy Chief Brosius then left the room. I asked Kevin if he minded if I open the drapes and he said that that would be great. I sat down directly in front of him got very close and told them I was concerned. I sat down directly in front of them got very close and told him that. I was concerned and a little scared about what happened. He knew machine couldn't lie but he didn't understand why the machine was doing this to him. I paused for a couple of minutes and begin to slowly explained. Kevin the situation as I saw it. I told him that if he really was not involved in what happened to Lisa that things would work out then told him. I was afraid that he was not telling the truth. I told him I really wanted a chance to help him. I repeated that the person who did this to Lisa needed me both as a friend and as someone to present objectively to the prosecutor. Exactly what happened? I repeated my feeling that this person really needed help that this person really didn't mean to hurt Lisa and that this person didn't deserve to spend his life in prison or to be executed. I told Kevin I had a number of concerns about his involvement with Lisa. I told him I wanted to go over them with him so that he understood why the pressure was on us to resolve his involvement. I told Kevin I had concerns about how he found out about Lisa and his reaction to her death. I explained that he said Techs told him that Lisa had been pulled off her bike. Hit in the head murdered and raped yet. Kids at Arab told us by one thirty in the afternoon that he kevin had been insisting that she had been stabbed and had not been raped. I told Kevin we didn't understand why watching the five o'clock news listening. Dan as a suspect made it obvious to everyone that Dan didn't do it. I told Kevin I was worried that he kept saying texted it yet. He told us that TEX wanted to kill Dan for doing it. I told Kevin that I was worried that he had made repeated threats against Dan and Lisa. I told Kevin that I was worried about his relationships with girls. I read from his journals. Quote I'm in the popular crowd but I don't like them or quote. I speak on a lonely Saturday evening or quote. My luck will change for the better in the next few months between high school and college each time he asked for and I showed him the paper that I was reading from. I told him I thought the affection between Dan Lisa bothered him and I read again from his papers quote. It really pisses me off when I see couples paired off. I am worth absolutely nothing. He replied that changed and I reminded him what he had said about his roommate's girlfriend's PDA public display of affection. I told him I had concerns about his fantasies with girls and again read regarding. Prom night quote it is not a bash. It is three girls and myself and they are ditching their boyfriends so they can spend the night with me. I asked if he really thought they were ditching their boyfriends on Prom night. He continued to look at me but did not respond. I told him some of his thoughts bothered me like quote. I will kill all undesirables. I must I am hated by virtually all my classmates males think I'm a loser in psychotic. A scar on the schools mere existence females despise me. As if I was the ugliest person on this planet which of course I am. I read the one final thought of his quote if I ever lose control of Myself. Withdraw into an alternative world and let animal instincts takeover. I headed Kevin a copy of that. That was I had Kevin a copy of that passage that was founded his house. Paused then told Kevin that you can't stay in this alternative world that the truth must come out. I Kevin Than I had enjoyed the time with him that it had been a long day and then I had to get back to the real world. I told Kevin A he had to get back to the real world too. I paused for a minute and told Kevin that I felt that he had a number of options. I told him that I felt confident that he was truthfully not involved. That things would work out however I also told him that if he was involved in any way in what happened to Lisa that he could never escape it. I said I felt that until he shared. The truth was someone who could understand him that there would be something deep down inside him. That would never let him get away from this. I told him that until this was resolved. He couldn't go back to Shakur because everybody in Shaker would think of him as being the suspect. I added that he couldn't go back to college because everything in college when now remind him of Lisa? I told him he couldn't go back to anything until he told the truth. I told him he had to clear his conscience. And tell the truth Kevin reacted. He leaned forward. He got real tense and he looked me right in the eyes with tears welling up in his eyes and deep emotion in his voice. He said he could have told me he did. It spent a couple of years in the hospital then got on with his life but he said quote. I've got to tell you the truth and this is the truth. And if I don't tell you this I don't know how I could ever live with myself. He paused for a couple minutes. Then slowly he said I'm scared. I feel suicidal. I have nothing to live for. I feel more suicidal now than I ever have. Since I was hospitalized two years ago he said that he quote needed to be in the hospital. He said for the first time in his life. He realized that he really needed help and that he needed to be in the hospital. He said he couldn't go anywhere but a hospital. I told him that I thought he oughta calls parents and talk to them about getting in a hospital. He said no he couldn't call home. He said No. He couldn't call home because his mom wouldn't believe him and she wouldn't let him go into the hospital. He added that he really needed to be in a hospital in away from his parents. He thought for a minute and asked if he could call his doctor. I told him we could. We walked over to the phone. He had a card in his wallet. For Dr Melvin CEVA NSEN. He gave me the number and I dialed it in. Charge it to the city credit card. Kevin asked if he could talk to his doctor privately and I agreed. I started to walk out of the room until Kevin told me he got the answering machine. He left a message on the answering machine at about four ten pm and said something to the effect of this is Kevin. I need to talk to you. I'll call you back in a little bit. Kevin and I talked for a little while and I told him that I thought he should leave a message with a number for the doctor to call. Kevin felt confident. His doctor would call during his next break between patients from four fifty pm to five pm so we left a second message at about four twenty pm while we were waiting. We discussed a number of the points. We discussed I again. Ask Kevin what he thought should happen to the person that did this to Lisa. He replied that the person should kill himself because he had nothing to live for. And if the person didn't kill himself then he should be killed. Kevin told me he really had nothing to live for and just needed to sit. He said on the bed and was silent for a while. He talked a little more about making friends and how hard it was. He said he had a deep pain inside. And that was so deep. He couldn't tell me he added that he wanted to tell me what it was but that he needed help and he couldn't say it he then looked at me and said he wasn't even sure what it was as five or five. Pm Dr Shave had not called. So I called Shaker. Pd and got detective. Clemma as he was leaving the station I asked him to go knock on the door. Dr Shave Anson's office two three three zero chagrin Boulevard Suite. One Oh five Dr Schloffmans and finally called about five fifteen. Kevin Answer the phone but asked if he could talk privately. I waited outside the door after a few minutes. Kevin came to the door. He told me the doctor Chad Benson could make arrangements to get him help in the hospital however Dr Shave. Hinson told him he had to call his parents. Something About Insurance Kevin the Nasty Pekar call his dad instead of his mom because his mom wouldn't believe him Kevin Tried but got no answer for his dad. Kevin hesitated and didn't want to call his mom. I told Kevin that I felt he knew what he wanted. And if he was strong enough I was sure his parents would support him. Kevin asked me if I would visit him and help him through. This and I promised I would. I again told him he really needed to call his mom because I couldn't stay with him forever and I couldn't leave him alone. He finally called his mom and again stepped outside the room. Kevin came to the door after minute and asked for a pen and paper after another minute. He returned to the door with tears in his eyes. He said he didn't know what to do that. His Mother didn't want him to talk to me and wanted him to call an attorney. He showed me the paper with the attorney's name and number on it. I told them the decision was his but suggested that if he wanted. His parents help that he should follow their advice. Given them call the attorney they talked for a couple minutes then. Kevin came outside. The Room told me that the attorney wanted to talk to me. The attorney asked me where Kevin was and I told him we were in room. Four twenty one of the Ramada Inn on Olatunji River road. The attorney also asked me not to ask Kevin Anymore questions. He then spoke to Kevin again. Would Kevin got off the phone? He told me he was to meet the attorney out front and that I was not even to walk him out Kevin with tears in his eyes. Ask If this meant. I couldn't visit him in the hospital and I simply told him that. I needed to make those arrangements with his parents and attorney. I then walked Kevin to the elevator. He gave me a hug as we waited for the elevator. He went down to the first floor. I went up to the fifth floor and prepared to drive back to Shaker Heights after the detectives were unable to force a confession from Kevin Young at Ohio State University. They returned to Shaker Heights more determined than ever that they had the right man. They needed a real expert to help them. Break Kevin. The next time they spoke enter renown psychologist Dr Murray Myron a professor at Syracuse University. He agrees to consult with them on the case but first he has some questions about Dan. Dreifort I understand that and indeed. That's a very powerful Alibi That the father indicates the Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together. That's that's very powerful. There is some. I must say that we we had some difficulty still however with Dan subsequent behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property in and I'll go back into the home apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area or whatever and they can't find anything unusual. Apparently Dan rea exits the house to find the bicycle. And then in fact without telling his parents Calls nine one one on his own to report what he believes to be now suspicious circumstances but then when the parents here the pruitt's outside on the lawn you know and they're distraught in here. All these police vehicles. The CRIME SCENE BEING ESTABLISHED UP. Dan goes to bed falls asleep while the parents are waiting for the plain clothes. Detective to come in and interview them. I found that I found that unusual. I'm in somewhat disconcerted but what we decided here was that Dick and I decided that well. That's not that's academic right. Because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating. It's Kevin and whether or not he's the guy or not. We want to give the four shot to use the best psychological coercion. We can. This episode is brought to you by hallmark cards. I recently gave my Buddy Morgan Card to let them know I appreciate them and met so much even cried a little bit. You'll need a special reason. Give it a try. See what a card can do to show how much you care visit hallmark dot com slash garage to shop cards for any occasion and use our Promo Code Garage to get twenty percents off your card. Purchase VISIT HALLMARK DOT COM SLASH GARAGE TODAY. Shaker Heights directed and produced by True Crime Garage co-produced by the Philosophy of crime and narration written by James Renner. Stay tuned for episode six.