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Episode 146: WrestleMania XX
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108 | Tony Denison: The Ultimate TV Cop
I saw the body. I had to stop. They have built a wall a protective wall around their emotions. It's the darkest most disturbing material you can ever look at in your life. Hey of y'all heard about Madison read, it is hair-color reinvented. Gorgeous along quality lush hair-color d- delivered to your door for less than twenty five dollars. You don't even have to go to a salon. It's twenty nineteen. So you don't have to choose between that outdated box color or the time and expense of salon. Instead, you can get Madison Reed that is crafted in Italy by master colorist, it is professional hair-color. You can do yourself at home, Madison. Reads colors are multi tonal there ammonia free that have ingredients that you can feel good about putting on your hair. You can find your perfect shade by taking the color quiz at Madison. Dash Reed dot com. You can also get an expert color consultation there. That's Madison dash Reed dot com. Best case worst case listeners can get ten percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code best case, that's your first color kit using code. Best-case ten percent off plus free shipping. Good madison. Dash Reed dot com. Alot welcomes of best case worst case is Jim Clemente retired beyond profiler foreign the prosecutor and writer producer on CVS criminal minds. And with me today in the studio is hi everybody. It's Francey Hague's former state and federal prosecutor, Jim we are back together in a studio. Always it's wonderful. Pleasure. It is. Well, everyone doesn't realize we occasionally get comment or she say does Jim really like Francey. I just wanna know for the record were sitting right next record and you're smiling. What record? This hacker. This hacker. Okay. Well, today Francey we have a very special guest in close friend with us today. Tony Denison, formerly of the TNT television series major crime and before that the closer and before that a lot of other different shows. Yeah, what's our favorite one while the favorite one, which is the show that gave me my big break is crime story Michelman show that we did for NBC way back in nineteen eighty six. Yeah. But that way our cell phones. But that way back is actually responsible for how you and I met, right? Exactly. 'cause I was actually visiting criminal minds a shoot right before my first steps owed that I was going to shoot that I had written. And so I was basically sitting on the set watching and I looked great. I was like oh my God. That's right loca. The director looks at me. Like, what are you talking about you? That's rare Luca you're insane. But anyway, then I said Tony Denison. I use his name will I used Anthony Luca as my undercover name when I was in the BI, I went onto cover and so in Chicago and New York. Yeah. She'll wait. Let me just get the street you GM Clementi fan. Void out our timing. This is what I'm hearing. I did just me everybody who doesn't you're right. So anyway, few minutes later, Tony walks off the set over us any said, hey, I heard you use my name, and I'll like oh fist off of me. Any breaks a smile, and he was really give me a hug, and I was the beginning of our now what fourteen year friendship. Absolutely weighed that means you put up with Jim for fourteen years Francey, no more fun. And then Jim took me once I went to when I was traveling east to visit family took me to Quantico, and we went to the FBI headquarters there, and I took the infamous fat stuff. Yeah. Which is a firearms simulation training test. And it's all it's an interactive movie. So you have a laser gun. So he fired just like a regular fire. But it fires a laser. So it actually times your reaction, and it's a shoot don't shoot situation. And what was amazing, and I'm sure Tony will remember the exact amount of time. But as I recall it was under a quarter of a second for Tony respond and shoot accurately in another situation. There was a situation where the agent was struggling with a bad guy and the bag. I was getting the best of them. And Tony responded and shot while these two guys rolling around on the six times six times. And he hit the bad guy. Six times only to one bullet went through the bed. Guys, wrist. We would imagine and went into partners Jolie, right? Yeah. But he hit the bad guy every time. So he goes how did you do that? I just took my time. And then took his time. It was like under three seconds. You know, it was ridiculous. I mean, you've never taken me this let it was fun. It was like the Sundance kid, you know, remember in the movie budget which Cassidy Sundance kid when he's aiming for the thing that he can't hit it. And he says can I move and they said, yeah. Move any moves, and then he hits the target leakage. Well, that's what I said the Jim while I was doing I said can I move and he goes, yeah. Of course, you can move. And soon as I was able to moving my body. I was able to shoot we're accurate anyway, the good old days back at the FBI was lotta fun. Yeah. So anyway, Tony we have you here today. Best case worst case to talk about best case in worst cases. And we're gonna let you decide whether that's from reality or one of the shows you were done or something else. So let's talk about this. When in your career, the first case that you're thinking about before we get to the normal question, Jim, which is our normal question. You've been playing cops in bad guys and mob stuff your whole career. I like a little bit of background onto them account. We I want our listeners to just know a little bit about who. He is. What of where he grew up where he came from? I think that's the way I'd like to start that way. Okay. With you jet. Well view must I must. So where did you grow up? I was born in Manhattan in hospital on Madison Avenue in eighty six street, eighty fifth street, and at the time it was called Gotham city hospital birth certificate says Gotham city on it while I'm Bruce Wayne was born on the next now what it was that's where I was born in Manhattan. My family lived in Harlem in New York and. The blue collar people. But you know, they wanted me to be born in this hospital. And that's where I started out life. And I was there for about seven years until they tore down the buildings to build the projects, and then we moved out to queens, Hollis, queens. And I lived there for about seven years, and then we moved out to when I was about fifteen or sixteen we moved out to hicksville still so far, Tony I think your life pretty closely resembles the life of a rapper. Yes. Pretty much and also all the all the city that I lived in all this area. I lived in Harlem was began with an age, and I lived in Hollis which began with an age, and then I lived in hicksville which began with an age and then Hollywood in Hollywood. So did you do Newman, HUD, Harper? You know, did you always want to be an actor was that's all king was the furthest thing from my mind. In fact, I wanted to do Jim with Jim did I wanted I was really tempted to join the FBI. So I was. Going to apply to northwestern for law school do two years a law school, and then go into the FBI, and then just things sort of just changed in my life. And then I was tired of school. You know, once I graduated from college. I was like that's what I wanted to get involved in different things. So that didn't happen. But it was really it wasn't like I didn't have a fire in my belly about it. But I really wanted to I want to serve people. I wanted to help people and entertaining them, which is really very similar, my, well, I guess to some degree because if you look at what acting is about what movies and TV shows. Ideally, they have like two purposes one is to either educate or to entertain okay? But if they can do both, and it's like really special, but ultimately, it's just, you know, entertain you or educate you in a lot of ways that serves people like I did a movie one time. It was a television movie. It was with Susan day. It was called. I love you. Perfect. And I just was not a movie that I would have normally get cast in you know, in how they cast. Things, but I was very popular at the network at the time. And so I was able to to get it. And I loved it because it was just such a great love story. But it was about a woman who's gynecological clinic or whatever screwed up some information. And it had they not screwed it up. You know, she would have lived and she wound up dying because she wound up getting cervical cancer as a result of it. And what happened as result of the movie is we kept getting a lot of letters and stuff from different people who said that they changed their clinic that they were going to and that they were on a little unhappy with services, they were receiving the places that and they said rather than get two point with something like that would happen. They would change. And and I thought well, you know, maybe ultimately if that save somebody's life than it was worth, the whole entire movie and all the time and all the money spent if one person's life was saved is reading an article this week in with economic uncertainty say the one business that never really suffers downturn is Hollywood is the TV in movie business, and that's because people need entertain. But I think also because people hunger to learn about things, they don't know anything about two from superhero movies, alway movies, like a quiet place. We were talking about horror and family in love and loss and fighting and good versus evil. All of this is encompassed in. Especially when we look back during the depression in our country, Hollywood, flourish and those movies were cost like a nickel or dime. And they flourished because people just wanted to go someplace sit in then like, you know, when air conditioning was just starting out sitting sitting on the lot of those theaters and saying, you know, what I'm in that dark space, and I'm watching this this light on the screen, and it's transporting me someplace else by follow talks about that. And being able to spend like a nickel or dime and be there for orient three double features and to variety shows in between you go to the movies with with the twenty twenty five cents and get popcorn get Googlers peanuts. And and a coke and then watch like to conceals to features. And then if you wanted to stick around you can watch them again. The good old days. Okay. So now we can start in. Okay. Well, Tony where in your career were you when this particular episode or case happened, I think it was in the first year of of the closer as particular episode. So when you're on the closer, did you find out about the top of the case, only when you got the script to read or did people tell you generally what's coming next only one? I got the script -tory. All right. So what we're doing? When you got the script for this particular episode. Well, as always have a certain set routine, I get a script, and I sit down read it right away. But do you read it at home at home? I read it. I read it at home usually over breakfast. You know, read it in the morning on sit down, and I'll I'll look through it or I'll go on the treadmill, and I'll read it while I'm walking three miles or four miles on the treadmill? And then get an idea of what the stories about certainly in. What ideas might wanna bring to it highly? Light certain lines in certain situations. But this always, you know, as an any case this always a distance between you even if the character, I've got to know that character, really, well, you know, thirteen years played that character. But even in the beginning in the first year, it still is much as you're familiar with the character is still a distance that occurs because what's on the printed page when it transforms to the set is totally different. You know? That's why a lot of times for actors a lotta times actors have tough time in addition. Because what they'll do in an audition has nothing to do so ever when you're actually on the set. But that's the system the way it's structured so you try to do the bust you can one little formula. I use. I just say my mind that the audition is the job I'm not additioning for job additioning for the job of additioning just doing that serving the material as best I can then if I get I get the role, then that's a whole nother set Asarco, but is it different? Because. You're not in the situation on in the scene. You don't really know what everybody else is doing or how people are playing. And you don't know how you you don't know where it's going to be you don't know the setup you can imagine. What says inside somebody's bedroom or inside the home, you know, and you think okay? And then when you actually get to the set like this particular one which really still stands out in my mind today, and this was in the first year of the closer, we went to this house, which wound up being the old Ozzie and Harriet house, or you know, Ozzy was way ahead of the curve this guy, God bless him. He had this home where the family lived. And he designed it in such a way that they were hidden bedrooms in the house where while they were filming in the house Harriet could go into a hidden part of the master bedroom. And she could so watch TV in in the end, the boys had separate hidden bedroom inside their two bedrooms that they could go to meanwhile, they could shoot the whole house, and these people could be unseen for hours at a time if they wanted to, but and he and he rented the house out to the studio to the to the nets. As the studio. So he made money not only producing the show he made money as the studio because it was it was it was like I said this guy was way ahead of the curve and the house still exists. But anyway, so that to me was thrill because I remember when I was a kid watching Ozzie and Harriet, which is a great show because Ozzy never had a job, you know, if you ever watch the old Ozzy in Harry's. He never went to the he's either going to the mall. Shop are gonna go play golf. He never said. I'm going to work today. He didn't work. It didn't have a job befuddled concept when you think about the man did not have a job. But anyway, so we're in this house, but it was it was a based on a true story that Mike Burcham who is a former New York City. I mean LAPD detective who's our advisor at the time and then eventually became a producer on the series. He talked about this one case one of the cases, and you go into this house. And it was a case where you knew the story because you'd read it in their reading before we did we actually went to the set, but the son the youngest son, it was like, the father left and went and remarried. Now, I had a whole 'nother family and the one boy his first his first male boy as verse male son was just jealous. You know, when they talk about the seven deadly sins. You know, like an envy you capable if you're if you're envious enough capable of murder in this kid went one night and slaughtered the entire family. But when I remember when we will doing the set when I was walking to set my character discovers the girl, you know, his half sister. And I'm telling you, even though I know it was like an actress young girl pretending to be dead. And it was pretend blood the way the light. It was at night and the way the the moon was coming in or moon are manufactured moonlight was coming in. When I got there. And I was looking at this thing. And I saw the the potty I had to stop in the middle of the scene. And I just you know, guys, I'm sorry. I just need a break for second. And they was like, what's I said, this is like so incredibly gruesome, and I remember, I, you know, Mike Bertram. Came over to me. And you know, and he was telling me because. Yeah. Know, how did you do you do this? You do Jim. I mean, how do you do this you go, and you see this like the absolute Nadar of humanity and looking at the thing and it took me about fifteen twenty minutes to collect myself. And as a result one thing with as a result of that later on in the show not necessarily in that episode per se though, I did a little bit. But later on in the series. I kept in certain crimes situations. In fact, the more gruesome, it was the more. I would add live occasionally some like clever retort or funny led to bring levity, and he said one time at first they said, I I don't know if it would do that. And he said, oh, you definitely bring some kind of humor because otherwise you go crazy, exactly. And that's what I was going to say said, how did we do it in the real world? I'm sure Mike would agree that one of the things that you do because you're seeing as he said the worst things that humans do Uman. Right. Is that you have to interject some dark humor, and it doesn't sound right to people in the outside. But if you don't do it in this comes from the top, psychological and psychiatric minds in the country that if you don't do it as law enforcement officer that you will go and say that it will overburden you you'll be completely depressed. It will crush your life. And the way to relieve some of that pressure is to basically engage in off color humor. But the other thing is that what we did as long force officers, especially in scenes like that is we sort of develop a clinical detachment in other words, just like a surgeon only looks at the area that they're about to cut open. They cover everything of that body up in only have the part exposed that. They're actually working on. It helps them focus on that area in what they have to do and not the person in what they might be going through. Or how said they might be or their family members. Because. As you need to focus in order to your job. So we do that. Whereas when you're acting. I think you're doing exactly the opposite. What you're trying to do is feel the emotions right? You're trying to get inside their heads and express those emotions. So in the certain sense. You're actually probably feeling a lot more than the people who actually have to work the job because they have yet because they have built a wall a protective wall around their emotions when you're actually not used to that. You're used to feeling just like any other Uman, you haven't built up this psychological barrier between the horrific things you have to see in things you wanna feel the same really was true for me as a prosecutor, especially his federal prosecutor focusing on challenge location cases in having to see so much child pornography. It's the darkest most disturbing material you could ever look at in your life. But you have to see it, and you have to deal with it. And you have to show it to a jury and talk about it and tell a judge. What it is. And explain in argue about it, and convict someone of having it or abusing children in order to produce it and in order to do that you have to be able to take a step back. So I think Jim is absolutely right. I was desperately trying not to put myself in the shoes of the victim, which I always found a challenge because I feel like I have a very vivid imagination. Maybe a little bit of every good prosecutor is a good actor because you have to perform in that courtroom, especially when it comes things like closing arguments and cross examination. So there's a tiny bit of acting involved in being prosecutor because if you're acting your little step, you're one step removed from your emotions, or at least that's a non actor. That's how I always thought of it is I was able to be someone that I wasn't. So I entered I'm talking about emotions that I'm trying not to feel his it doesn't able to have that that one step removed where I think gyms, right. It seems to me armchair psychologist that the reason you felt strongly and had to stop when I saw that actresses because you had put. Yourself in the position of detective walking on a crime scene in seeing a gruesome murder on dead body. And that's a motion. There's just no way around it. So I think that's an interesting difference between the two jobs. Hey guys, have you made New Year's resolutions about your health? Well this year you can make health and wellness a top priority with the help of care of monthly subscription vitamin service. Whether you're focused on glowing skin, boosting your energy getting more sleep or just generally being more healthy. Did you know that ninety percent of people fall short of FDA recommended guidelines for at least one vitamin or nutrient? You can find out what your lacking with care of online quiz. It's fun and easy. And it'll help you get back on track reaching your health goals. Once you figure out what you're lacking in place. Your order this obstruction box gets sent right to your door every month with personalized daily packs, which is great for a busy on the go lifestyle for me skin-care is always important, especially as much as I travel, and so now I can travel with my sort of Goto skin-care vitamins in an easy pack. So take advantage of this month's special New Year's offer for fifty percent. And off your first month of personalized care of vitamins. Go to take care of dot com in enter the promo code best case fifty that's fifty percent off your first month of personalized care vitamins at take care of dot com and enter the promo code best-case fifty. All right. So you compose yourself you come back into the scene, and how do you deal with it up? Well, I go back like way back. We went back to when I like, even I come into the outcome. Coming up the stairway to discover the body, and then I just realized that as a professional that there are certain things that I need to do where if I'm feeling certain way as just use it maybe to motivate me to like just be as thorough and his exact as I can instead of allow making it making me become like so super motions that I can't focus properly or also to make 'em make mistakes where I might contaminate incorrectly a crime scene, and because of the more gruesome, it is the more you want him see that person be brought to Justice whoever it is. And what really surprised me about this? I mean, I knew the new was it was there was the saw it was skirl stepbrother. And I realize that you. I don't know if you guys found in your journeys, but I know on the show the crime scenes where it is the most gruesome are mostly related to family. You know, this is like that's like incredibly you could say that's incredibly personal. You know, this is not some random lunatic walk into your house. And you know, I mean, obviously, they're a serial killers. Who are you know, complete space monkeys, and they need to be put put away someplace forever and ever. But there are people from this planet, you know, who can get to a place where they just crossover into this other one, right? And they're capable of you all manner of evil will Tony to answer question. I think yes, there there have been many cases in which you see the just the rage and the anger the motion that's exhibited at the crime scene in the violence. That's there, and you know, that there's a reason for it and many. Times that reason is because there's a personal relationship was then on the other end of that spectrum. There are people that for no apparent reason actually enjoy causing pain and suffering and those people are typically sadistic and psychopathic, and and they do not see other Yuma beings away. We do they see them as a chair or box or something. They use. News read about that. I think you and I have had conversations regarding that situation. But in in cases, like I described where we walked in. And you see I mean, the houses is a washing. But okay, do you meet Leeson as you walk in say, okay. This is family. This is most likely a family situation, necessarily because it you just you always want to eliminate in any homicide case eliminate the people closest to the victims. Okay. Always. So that's let's standard. Yes. And the reason why you eliminate them is because it is the highest probability. However, there are many cases in which people unfortunately, cross paths with somebody. They don't even know. And I think we were talking about a case today Francia night where somebody who literally just focused on a family wiped out that family and stole the daughter and just being this thing that was on the news miraculously, she survived your mind. Tony, I'm really interested. I wonder if it's because that you thought about law enforcement as career it seems to me that it's very important to you to portray not just the character. But the actions of the character and accurate way. Why is that do you think why you care? I don't know. I just I've always been I want Justice freak in that sense. But I like to think myself always the champion of underdog. And in the case of a person who's been slaughtered like that, you know, they need somebody to stand up and be counted for them and just can't let it the idea of somebody getting away with those old expression getting away with murder is reprehensible to me and always has been and hopefully, it always will be I love it. When I read some story on the news and something breaks, and then eventually like certain it's like I remember when I watched that Scott Peterson thing go down. So the minute that story broke. Okay. And when they were at the hotel. And they were like organizing the people I didn't know anything about the case other than a couple of news clips here and there, but soon as they had him, and he was like sort of laughing and joking with the people like, oh, yeah, we got an I remember I said he killed her. What is he's the murderer is I don't care not saying anything yet. But I'm telling you if that were my wife the last thing in the world that would come out of my mouth would be any kind of flippant remark. And the fact that he was sort of joking with the people he's he's definitely the murder and couple of days later, there was this sort of leading right into this. Oh, what you noticed just as a average person, you know, person may be used a little more attuned to people's behavior because you grow up in a in a really intense city. And you had this law enforcement, you know, leaning that you realize that there was something absolutely missing from the husband in this case, and that was profound grief, anxiety and fear. These things that we would naturally look for in somebody who has just lost a wife who's pregnant who basically, you know, reportedly was just stolen away. There's a reaction that humans have and it's pretty universal. And when some people see that and say, well, you know, some people grieve differently. If they don't grieve at all, then that's not greedy. I can see being stunned Okoro, but affect is one thing. But that that what you're talking about is another I would say to that as an actor, especially someone who's been someone who's played law enforcement in Bidin Justice roles. Maybe the bad guy occasionally, not mistaking you play John Gotti. So you've been on both sides as an actor. I feel like you're sort of a human behavior studier being you're kind of profiler in in the sense in a very real sense. Like Jim was in reality. You are also a profile because you have to profile the characters Puglia playing off of the people in the scene who were playing dead. That's what an actor does undercover agent. You know, I mean when when you're undercover, you know, obviously, you or person. So you bring your own reactions to a situation. But then you're this other person you're playing so the person, and you have to think how would that person respond to? The same situation. I have to remove myself from that quesion and only use the tools that this other person would have in bring to it. So I mean, that's I think perfect example of of what acting is. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think we've had a conversation about this. And I know it's not something that I can prove it's just some feelings that I've had that. I think that any act of murder is an act of insanity. And I don't care if it's like premeditated initially. But when you go when you actually take somebody's life, something I think switch off inside of your head. And for that moment that you actually do that. You must be insane. I mean, I just not that it's excusable that you should go to the, you know, the house for the insane. And that's what you do for the rest of your view punishment. But I'm just saying that barring whatever your punishment may be in that moment. I think that everybody who commits murder premeditated or not in that second is gone. Completely insane. Makes a lot of sense to me. It's one of those things where there are. Lots of different kinds of crimes murder is one of them certain kinds of murder, obviously, when you're talking about a barroom fight is a little bit different who you're talking about any kind of premeditated murder any kind of child abuse crime. These to me as a non murderer non child-abuser are impossible to understand. I think on a fundamental human level is. So I'm interested in how you get into a character. Who does things when you're playing the opposite side of the street, the you would never do because that seems to be to be much harder than playing someone that I could see myself being as career while I've I've not ever played a character are the side of the fence, you know, or the other the streets this week where I wanted people to like me like with the character Luca on on crime story. I mean, he was by all accounts. Pretty reprehensible, I mean, it was a rough guide to kill the for Siri the first year the show might characterize the personally will responsible for the death of fifty five people. So. So we're talking about, you know, pretty pretty uncompromising kind of guy, but I ever play a scene anytime throughout the whole series the two years that it ran for people to like me. I only played it for the idea of people to understand me. I think in life that there are people who honestly believe and I feel sorry for them. Honestly believe that the ends justify the means. Now when you get to that place in your life with the ends justify the means sometimes you have to sit back, and you say yourself is the ends responsible for a higher Justice that might not happen. I mean, you can go through all of that discussion as to like because they were episodes of the closer with stuff like that happened where the person looks like they were going to get away with it. And because of certain setups that like curious character did on the closer person winds up being holding the bag, and you know, they're gonna wind up dead not by the criminal Justice system. But by the street Justice, while Tony this is really really compelling interesting. And there's so much more going to ask you about. So we're going to have to continue. This on our next episode, please tune in next time to hear the rest of the story from our great friend and colleague twenty Dennis. I got a million of our. Till next time. Thank you listening to best case worst case signing for now. Case worse-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clementi at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike. Posed performed by Simba sume. And hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. Knowledge is power. And when we know the facts about sexual abuse, we can better protect kids darkness to light his already trained more than one point four million adults to keep children safe from sexual abuse. I'm one of those one point four million Jim using their stewards of children prevention training, they give you and gave me the facts, tools and tips I needed to help keep the kids. I love safe and you can do the same with their stewards of children prevention training, get trained today to prevent recognize and react responsibly to child abuse in your community. Learn more about darkness delight and child sexual abuse prevention at WWW dot D, two L dot org. That's d the numeral two L dot org.
Best Case Worst Case
Aired 6 months ago 31:03
89 | The Kavanaugh Abuse Allegation: Wrongfully or Credibly Accused?
I know. Actually, I worked with him for a couple of years on the whitewater investigation. I sell. It was my duty to weigh the credibility of the witness, and I've put five year olds on the witness stand. Hello and welcome to best case worst case. Worst case scenario, I'm your host former state and federal prosecutor, Francey aches. Everyone will be so excited to know. I'm joined by Jim Clemente retired grow former New York prosecutor writer producer on CBS's, criminal minds. Know it's interesting. We've had a couple of weeks where you did an independent interview without me. And then last week as we discussed, I talked about protecting children without you. I have to say, I hate to say it, but I think we've had way more comments with people saying where's gem versus wears Francey. Where are the hash tag team Francey people there probably was quietly sitting back knowing that Francey will return while we are back and I'm excited today because I wanna talk about something ripped from the headlines United certainly done that occasionally. And I was just on the news talking about this case. It is ripping the headlines and it's all about the allegations against DC circuit court. Judge Brett Cavanaugh of who is pending confirmation to the United States prem- core. That's right. Big job lifetime appointment. He was appointed by President Trump, but he's already go iphone. Going to the DC circuit court, and people seem to miss that in some of the debate. So this, obviously, there are a lot of politics involved in this. You've got Democrats on one side Republicans on the other and what I'm hoping we can do today. Jim is talk about it from an investigative and prosecutor stamp full disclosure though. I know Br travel. Actually, I worked with him for a couple years on the whitewater Vesta Gatien under ten star. And so you said something Democrats versus Republicans? Well, I don't consider myself a democrat though, have some very liberal views, but I also have some very conservative views, and so I'm not. I don't fit very well into one of those peg. Kohl's so, but can I think we can all agree. You're a round hall on a square peg? Yes, could be it'd be, but the fact is that on this particular point, I mean. Certainly I may disagree with Bret Kavanagh's stance on Ireland's second amendment, let's say, or I don't know what other things like. They mostly talked about the secondment abortion as as as it comes to Kevin on. You know, they say that at least the opposition says that he is going to take the country back to a place where women have no rides. Gay rights and other human rights. I don't think he has opened on that. It's one of those things in these confirmation hearings. It's it's like it's like a circus what they wanna say, which is basically, oh, that's an issue that's gonna come before me. I can't opine about it will anyway. The point is that I worked very closely with road for number of years back in. I believe nineteen. Ninety five ninety six and I have to say he was obviously very bright, did not know at the time where we went to school, turns out it was yell and I did not know that he was destined to become a United States quarterback appeals Justice or to be in line for appointment to the United States Supreme court. But I did know a couple of things about him that it was very careful and Anna little, very bright and very honest. We were doing an investigation against the president United States Bill Clinton, and he was extremely careful not to let the fact that this was sort of a news worthy investigation influence him in any way, shape or form. And he was very careful about making sure that the law supporting every move we may so. So I found him to have a high degree of integrity. Even if I disagree with his views. In some cases, I have to say that I am happy that if somebody is going to be in the United States, bring court with those differing views from me that somebody with the level of integrity is Kevin o. hats. Well, that's interesting that you say, Jim, obviously, while said, the one thing I've forgotten the allegations, the thing that I found, I don't know Brett Kevin. I've never heard anything about the man at all until he was nominated by President Trump what I found incredible. I admired about him during the hearings was his obvious incredible knowledge base about cases in the constitution. I mean, if you really watch those hearings, which I did because I'm a junkie, I always watch airings about these different court justices on both sides of the aisle. I was stunned as he was pulling out case after case, not just talking on the cases. But quoting, not just from the opinions, but from the dissents ripe. When memories are memory, that was pretty amazing on top of that, there's two things that I wanna point out about his hearings, but his acceptance speech, and that was the high regard he showed for his mother, the judge who was his idol and for his wife and two daughters. And it's very obvious when you see him interacting with his family, that he has a tremendous amount of love and respect for those women. That's why I think this particular allegation cuts really hard in this case. So I'm happy we got a chance to discuss. Yes, let's get into it. I mean, it's it's a really interesting allegation, and I've handled a lot of cases where there's been an allegation of sexual abuse or salt, and there's no DNA. There's no physical evidence. There's no eyewitnesses. And so it boils down to a, he said, she said, kind of allegation. And as a prosecutor, I felt it was my duty to weigh the credibility of the witness, and I've put five-year-old's on the witness stand. I, I had to weigh that child credibility just like I had to weigh the adult rape victims credibility. And there's really only two ways to do that. Jim one assassin the allegation them itself. What is the allegation? One of the facts where the details does it sound like a credible account of sexual assault or abuse, and to does the alleged victim have any motive to lie. Because as you've seen in court, John, as I have every defense attorney worth his or her salt is going to claim that that alleged victim has a motive to lie to fabricate the account run. And so let's get into a little bit of how we go about doing that are do wanna say one thing though. You said he said she. She said, in this case, what we basically have, she said, don't really have the. He said, because he is not made any statement about this alleged incident. He's said that it didn't happen. He can't say that because he wasn't given date time and place to respond to. He basically hasn't said on that date time place. I was here. There are somewhere else, which is why there is a statue of limitations. Now we've talked about it before. I mean, in certain cases there shouldn't be, or the statute of limitations should be extended. When a child is not likely to report for twenty thirty years after child. Sex crime occurs in that statue of limitations should take that into account. However, because of the time passes evidence goes away. Witnesses, go away. Memories fade memories can be malleable. So I wonder and I hope we get to talk a little bit about the circumstances surrounding this memory on part of the accuser. Yes. Let's let's break down. As we would have done you as investigator in the prosecutor me as the prosecutor when we were assessing a case here are the facts, at least as far as we know them to to have been alleged by Dr Ford. She said in a letter, we've obviously not heard from her ourselves so you can't assess her credibility in her statements or her mannerisms. But in a letter, she has said that on a date she doesn't remember to play. She doesn't remember. She got there or left there. She was on a party and had been drinking herself. She was fifteen and seventeen year old. Brett cavenaugh accompanied by a friend, pushed her into a room and Brett cavenaugh you should pushed us. I heard they said, come on in here. I think I read the letter and I think it said they corralled or think literally, it's like they corral her into the row. Good. Yeah. Well, that's important. What is corralled me? Yeah. Is it mean that the two persons. In one way and see Waffen or does it mean they grabbed her and physically through in the room? We don't know because she won't. She won't elaborate, but it's certainly left the impression with me that she was indicating it wasn't her volition to enter the room. So she was indicating that the violence, if you will started there, it, she was well, I don't. I don't agree. I don't think the word corralled and I'm sure that her attorney at something to do with getting this letter to where it got, and I'm sure that that word that was chosen was very carefully chosen, slit probably was. And that's just that really proves our point front of beginning, Jim is that we need to hear her account for run her own work, but corralled has no violence in it. Corralled is when you corral a heard, you don't beat them. You don't physically take take them. You basically run around or right. Right around the edge and sort of nut or encourage somebody to go particular way. So what you're saying we really can't evaluate what she met. No, but I don't wanna. I don't want to like I've seen in some press reports, take words, and then add something that's not there. I don't want us. I do not believe that the word Corrales indicates violence. Are I disagree differently? I think I thought differently only because of how the account thank goes forward, which is that then she is tossed down. I think on the bed and Brett Cavanaugh is on top of her and she says he is trying to attack her and trying to use those words. Yes, right atop as ackward letter trying to attack her and trying to take off her bathing suit and some other clothes she had on top of her bathing suit Oku. So. All right. That's important to know. Oh, so she had two layers of clothes on it wasn't underwear enclosed on top. It was bathing suit and close on top practical. Adding to her count. Yeah, good on. She says, there was another person in their mandate. Mike judge a who, by the way, has come forward and said, he doesn't remember anything. He didn't remember this event happening and said, he's never seen Brett cavenaugh act in that way that she describes toward any woman. So he just issued what is basically a blanket denial. I didn't see it half, but that's not a blanket denial. Because if he said, I don't remember it period that's a blanket denial. Or if he said, didn't happen to blanket denial. But he also added that he's never seen Brett Cavanaugh act that way towards one. Yes. He said all three of those things that you just had by ZOA about good. I mean, that's more than just a blanket than he also went further and said, I have experienced with Brad Kavanagh, and I've never seen a MAC that way. So I guess at this point in her account, we've got a, she said, they said. Difference resent, which is interesting and say, as an aside, Jim, I didn't get a chance to say this on on Fox News tonight when I was doing the interview about this. But to me, there's a really interesting point here all the people who are accusing Docker Fourtou, lying or fabricating, the account are missing. Something that I think is significant is small, but significant and that is in a fabricated account, would you expect someone to invent an eyewitness who would be expected to simply deny wrongdoing? I find that to mitigate against it being a completely fabricated account because who fabricates eyewitness will would who also acts in concert with malignant intent, agree with what you're saying that she probably didn't fabricate it. But if it did happen, why would one of these guys act in such a manner with an eyewitness there? Who. Could stop it. Yes, also reported. And who apparently did stop it at least according to Dr Ford's account this Mike judge at one point sort of piled on top of Rhett Cavanaugh who was on top of her. Again, this is her allegation and that caused the pile to tumble in her words, and she was able then to get off the bed and escape the room. Are wonder, could it be that was sort of horsing around? I mean, that sounds like horsing around s to me. I also read something about Mr.. Judge that something about his sexuality that he's questioning sign here that yeah. Is it possible that he was in the room to be with Bret and Bret was in the room to be with her, and it got kind of crazy. I don't know. That's the problem, of course, is that we can't properly assess this. One other possible detail she told is that during the time when she alleges that Cavanaugh was on top of her, the music was turned up loudly to prevent her screams from being heard. She says, and cavenaugh put his hand over her mouth is interesting because how many hands does he okay to? And how's he turning up the music and putting his hand over mouth? I'm trying to remove clothes and try. Yeah, that's kind of an internal inconsistency. And what does that tell you may not be true or accurate? Have you heard of Madison read? 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Find your perfect shade at Madison dash free dot com. Madison. Reid is honoring best case. Worst case listeners with this ten percent off plus free shipping offer on your first caller kit. If you use promo code best-case, that's promo code best case. So three ways to look at this with her happened at all with her happened as reported, whether it was misinterpreted and one thing that stands out to me frenzy is what's not here there seemingly was no words exchanged after the component here. If they're those words, I don't know. So what we're left with is. Trying to interpret her version of behavioral events and we know that people can misinterpret events and in certain cases that's very relevant legally. In other cases, it can totally obviate any crime at all. We ask them an to legal principle in prosecution for the defense side to put forward a legal defence of mistake. And so the prosecution always has to be prepared to prove that whatever the criminal act was was not committed by mistake. You're absolutely right, and it's critical piece. So one of the problems of not knowing when the party was or where the party was or who else was at the party was that we don't know what happened in her mind before that. In other words, I've heard that they're very specific details like she was walking up the stairs, and she was three steps from the top, and there's this little landing and she wanted to go to the bathroom and they told her. To come in here and her lawyer apparently reported that she had had two drinks. We don't know what those drinks were. Were they beers or they Long Island is t's with two of which should put any fifteen year old in a really bad way. So I don't know what it was and she may or may not know what those drinks were. But the fact was that see was obviously engaging in underage drinking, and obviously that's a risk factor. It can also affect memory could also affect perception. And so even though she may have remembered this event happening, if that's the case, she may have misinterpreted behavior or misremembered behavior. Now I know that there was some report that she recalled this or I spoke about it six years ago. Yes, twenty twelve was the first time that she ever spoke about this event. At all was when she was in as I understand it couples therapy with her husband and she mentioned to the therapist that she was the victim of an attempted assault of some kind. And the therapist wrote down that she was assaulted by four boys. Now she says through her lawyer is so frustrating because we don't know what she says, but she says through her lawyer that the therapists notes are incorrect. So she's using the therapists notes to bolster her tail that she disclosed this about Brent Kavanagh without ever mentioning his name six years ago, but also says that there abyss notes are unreliable because they contain a key mistake. However, as we know, Francey, that's a contemporaneous recording of event and the vent being the statement that she was assaulted by four boys, right? But even her statement today, isn't she saying that. Quote, nothing happened because she was able to get away. Well, he was trying to do ABC. Yes, but she has also said again through her lawyer that she believes that had he Kevin on not been so drunk. She would have been raked. Wait a minute. All right. Her belief that that was the case is almost irrelevant because it did want it didn't happen and she's not saying, I mean, this is like the classic weren't not assize time, right? I mean, and anybody who went to law school should know that reference of, sorry, I don't even remember the case, but Greg Kavanagh probably does sharing. Yes, it's it's a conditional threat and it's basically it's not a threat because there's an outside condition to it, and she in her statement then is saying bre cabinet was drunk. So drunk. He me to that. He couldn't riper so it wouldn't have been a possibility. But the fact is that unless she says that she can describe with credibility. Something that indicates that he was actually trying to rape her. She's got no place saying, I believe that if this wasn't the case, but it was the case he would have done this buddy didn't. I mean that's why so hard to assess the credibility and I sort of lean one way and where I wish we had time to get our friend Jim FitzGerald in here to talk about sort of statement analysis kind. Dan bark talk about statement analysis because to me, it's very significant words that she uses. He tried to attack me. He tried to remove my clothes that is a long lead, Jim, you and I know from there to actual rape, but wait a minute. There's no stated intention to Ray just because I mean as she described people in high school, make out in that position of they, you know, do heavy. Petting in that position. Rape is an extreme that I can't believe that she's actually allege. Edging in this case, it's just wait a minute. Where is the the stated intention? Where is whether either behaviorally or verbally to rape, what are you really try to rape are in front of us. Other guy will never leave a witness thing that makes it incredible. In my opinion this allegation because she's gone that far because she holy in where she can't possibly know, she should wait. Don't understand whether or not well, I just don't know whether or not that kind of characterization of what might have happened. Had these circumstances been different? I don't know where that came from. Did that come from outside sources who are influencing our or did it come from her and this clearly partial memory. You know, we know that one of the worst types of evidence that can ever be put in a court of law is I witness testimony, and that is for number of reasons. One, our observations are malleable. What we see and what we think we see may not be actually the same thing and what we experience in what we think we experienced thirty five thirty six years later are memories can change. I mean, I was alive at that time as was I right? And I remember let's say, go into my Brahm and I was upset that night. Something happened that upset me and it stays with me. I remember the girl I went with, I remember her name. I remember that she was wearing a blue just because I've seen. Seen pictures of me with an afro and standing next to Mary with blue dress on. So I have some anchors to bring me back there. I have no idea what the theme song was. I have no idea where the problem was located. I have no idea when I picked her up. What I how I picked her up, where we got dropped off when we got home. I don't remember any of those details because why? Because it was over thirty five years ago. One of the things that I've seen and getting some Twitter hate tonight after my parents on FOX talking about this, even though I no way shape or form call, Dr. Ford Aligarh people are just assuming I did because I said, I probably would bring this case, but one of the things people ask traumatic memories of traumatic events like a crime, let us soom. It's a crime in her mind. It was a crime against our violent assault. She says. Are different than just a memory of a prom or something disappointing happening. So how do how do you explain to people the difference between a traumatic memory that may stand out in your mind? Because it was a dramatic event. Right. Will RAM saying this was dramatic memory. I have this memory because Mary ended up leaving the prom without me and it was my bra, and I was very upset. And so even though it wasn't a crime that was committed against me, I remember it because of that. Now I know that I went to the junior prom. I know that I went to proms in college. I don't remember them. I don't even have a memory at all of them, and I'm sorry, but I can't remember who I went to those dances with, but there was significant events in the life of a teenager in high school, and I don't remember them. So I do agree that traumatic events can. Firmly plant memory in your mind, but it does not insulated against manipulation, your brain, and your memory is an organic thing. It is not solid state permanent memory. Every time we recall a memory. We have the opportunity to adjust it. We have the opportunity to use information and education that we've had since that memory to color would happened in that memory, and it's very difficult to strip that added information that added intelligence that added experience away from a memory that existed three and a half decades ago. So what I'm trying to say is I agree that trauma can plant the seeds of a memory that can be recalled later, but that doesn't make the memory exact. It doesn't make the memory. Perfect. And it certainly doesn't make a memory. Absolutely, right. So trauma doesn't equal necessarily perfect recall, no, no, it does help recall, but nobody can get away from the fact that their memory can be manipulated. So as prosecutors, we would assess her her statement such as it is. And I just wanna say, again, I said this ready, but I just wanna say, again without watching her, I never ever ever, but an alleged victim on the witness stand without talking to them, I without visiting them in their home if they were children without having them in my office to make sure I understood what they were saying that I personally believe their credibility. So Jen, I cannot assess her credibility, not at this point. We're not talking about assessing credibility, but we're looking at other factors that we do have at this point and we'll come back and talk about once she does testify, she does will absolutely come back. And talk about that. However, the problem is she's not going to be cross examined by ass. No, not by anybody. She's going to be in a public hearing and it's going to be. They're going to be people who are basically promoting what she saying in. There are going to be people who are fighting what she's saying, but she will not be cross examined f as if this were a court of law. She has by the way, made a statement through her lawyer that she refuses to quote testify in this hearing until the FBI investigates case. Sorry, the FBI does not investigate those kinds of cases. Well, then that's what that was my next point, Kim, you're always jumping ahead of me. Well, I'm actually doing what I should be doing. You are just way too slow slow everybody. Can you believe Jim, I guess, is what happens when I don't say with Jim long enough, I gotta get back in line do my best. I'm going to get that picture of him with the afro Mary address again. And that'll put them right back in his place. So like that, who do you do? Jim, obviously, we have a lot more to talk about whether it's back to Dr Ford and her allegation against supreme court nominee judge Brad Kavanagh. So this is very much to be continued. So until next time, on best case, worst case, thanks for listening. Excuse. Worst-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire. Studios LA engineered edited by Mike thal music composed and performed by Simba Sumberg. And hosted by wondering, you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify, Stitcher, apple, podcasts, and wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to do something about child sexual abuse, darkness delight can help. Did you know that more than ninety percent of the time? Children are sexually abused by someone. They know, Jim, this isn't about stranger danger. It's about learning the true risks. Darkness to lights training can help prevent recognize and react to child sexual abuse in your community. When you make the decision to get involved, kids can be protected. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot d. two l. dot org to take the training in learn more. That's the the number two l. dot org.
Best Case Worst Case
Aired 2 months ago 32:58
107 | Cleared Hot
Rene's or Ganic organs the row pathways that are necessary to survive, we just used a hammer. So now we had to bring whole toolbox able why wasn't necessary for United States seals to protect Iraqi polling places for an election. Hey, have y'all heard about Madison read, it is hair-color reinvented. Gorgeous along quality lush hair-color d- delivered to your door for less than twenty five dollars. You don't even have to go to a salon. It's twenty nineteen. So you don't have to choose between that outdated box color or the time inexpensive salon. Instead, you can get Madison Reed that is crafted in Italy by master colorist. It is professional hair-color. You can do yourself at home, Madison. Reads colors are multi tonal there ammonia free that have ingredients that you can feel good about putting on your hair. You can find your perfect shade by taking the collar quiz at Madison. Dash Reed dot com. You can also get an expert color consultation there. That's Madison dash re dot com. Best case worst case listeners can get ten percent off plus free shipping on your first color kit with code best case, that's your first color kit using. Owed best-case ten percent off plus free shipping. Good madison. Dash Reed dot com. Low welcomes of best case worst case, this is Jim committee retired of the profiler. Former New York City prosecutor writer-producer on CBS criminal minds with me today in the studio is hi everybody. It's Francey Hague's former state and federal prosecutor Jim in studio together again teams back gotta love it. We also have a return guest loved by all laugh by all at Heiner. Retired navy? Seal commander, you have me thanks for being here at our listeners are going to be thrilled to have you back. I'm sure listeners will remember that you've been on twice before talking about some serious things. And I'm excited to hear what you're gonna talk about today to wondering frontier, you're gonna post pictures of Ed on. My reputation Brazil's me Ed the people riding in about you might have commented on the victors everyone. I'm not really sure I shared that. With it. I didn't want him to feel weird about it. But people like your pictures. Let's just put it that way. Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm blushing. You're you're an American hero glass abbey here. All right. Well, we're gonna talk to you today about situation, but you have in mind, and we'd like to know where you were in your career at this point. The see I was about ten years into being a seal ten eleven years when I got into the situation, and what were you doing on that particular day? I was the ground force commander in Ramadi arrack an bar province in Iraq Wrexham. Okay. And what is it ground force commander responsible for as a seal team groundforce commander? Basically, it's a thirty man assault team about eighty or hundred support perso-. Mel intelligence in all kinds of different little flavors that we have our silting. Okay. So could you describe for us for our listeners you, and I talked last time you were here about the new TV show. It's a hit seal team, and whether or not it's real choose to believe that it is mostly because of the star, David. But could you explain to us were what are the normal duties happening in Iraq at this time? What are you all doing one of those thirty seals doing on a day in day out? We can week out basis in what your support people doing the that particular time we were transitioning from what you'd see on TV where the direct action missions with unilateral just seals. We were sent out to Ramadi to start embedding ourselves with Iraqi special forces in Iraqi troops to lead them into the fight. Because remember in two thousand five we're transitioning over to give it to the Iraqis invite we've done here. So that's we we started doing something very new. We've never done before is to better. Ourselves with the same people. We probably fault to three years earlier. And could you give us some idea the setting was look like what are the circumstances where we live in where he working what's going on? Yeah. We first got there. We lived in a building that was Saddam's sons Uday in Koos as bodyguards. It was right on the Euphrates river. It was abandoned. Basically we all powder in there. We had a bunch of tents set outside and like thirty people intense with cots and machine guns everywhere. So is mash it was will mashes very organized. This was not it was filthy. It was just rudimentary just guide there. We just all reponded is no running water for about a month. Yeah. Pretty nice such a girl all I can think of his own my God, my hair, you probably didn't worry about that way about to hear. I actually shared my my my judge is on might appointment shake my head before I go sometimes. And it lets me know when it's time to come home. I visited there I told you I cannot so you're in a very. Rugged environment in a building that has been abandoned. There's no running water. You guys were all kind of squatting there. And what happens what your what's the first thing that happens? Well, the first thing we did when we got there's really we went out with conventional forces. Army rains started getting kind of feel for the battlespace that we're going to deal with we also had mission stacked up. So we're doing that we're doing missions at night day night. And then we started finding ourselves. Iraqi counterparts started embedding with them doing missions with into really like jumping on an airplane in flight and start to build it the lane redoing. So you said that you started doing assessing the battlefront county with that mean what we would do in me and few people that were like the senior people that we're gonna tro elements of the team is we went there couple of weeks early. So we jumped in with the regular forces that I see the battlefield when you say jumped in. You mean parachuted? No, I'm sorry. We got in their vehicles did patrols missions in hit. Tar. Gets hit Bagai buildings with. And we did that for about two weeks to kind of get the land. Because when you go to a place like Ramadi, you drop down a wrong street, you disintegrated. Okay. Yeah. So I'm just interested in finding out. So you said you went with them in you hunted. People in your taking fire your shooting people. What's going up out will various things? Yeah. There was we had some pretty difficult Tartus when I was with some of the army guys always taken fire. Our camp was hit. I think in the eight months zehr. Two hundred mortars inside the perimeter cancer. Yeah. So pretty much it was a standard everyday. Something's getting blown up in these mortars like they blow up an area. How big it depends sixty millimeters in his depends where they were made. If there were some of the craning some were that not very good. So they don't grow apart evenly. If you're twenty meters away might be safe. So so we got one hundred no. No, not wear the mortar coming into Mike tent was made. I I don't wanna know need to know that for for some reason, I just don't picture you attend. Never. I'm much more of a glam ping kind of think you're a radical camping. But you're absolutely right me intense. Definitely not. Enough. So you're you're run around for two weeks with the army and figuring out what the land is right? Taking people shooting at you bombs landing near you. You guys protecting yourself and doing missions thanking people down. Yup. Taking people down. We also just getting late Atlanta. One of the things you you have to go into a combat situation most risky times or the times coming and going when you come in. You don't know anything. Everything's you. Don't know the dangers are when you get with these young. We had some nineteen twenty year old army guys driving around it'd been like seven months in live that long or didn't get ruined about enough to go home. You knew they knew what they're doing. Pretty was pretty wise they had six cents like can imagine. And they were probably eighteen nineteen twenty year old hit nineteen Honey when you said that because the marines came to us with Vero analysis unit and asked us to try to help them determine how was that? They can find you know, they can have two marines. One of them walk down the street and. Sees just everybody in can't figure out who the hell anybody is with the bad guys are and another one that can just in a fraction of a second. Tell that's the bad guy right there. And so I you know, we worked with them for a while. But right from the start I said, I can almost guarantee that the ones who could do it immediately or former cops or they grew up in a really rough neighbor. Those two sets of people will have developed skills survival skills because of how they grew up or Halley were and it did turn out pretty much that way that is we things we all kinda note every seal comes from a very strange background using broken homes. Diversity in the background? That's a pretty much a common denominator think the reason for that. I'm sorry enough track that I think the reason for that. Or the reason for their achievement of the name seal is because of that background because in order to succeed Orleans just survive in those. Backgrounds. They had to learn how to push themselves harder than everybody else you that. And you have to pay attention people that live on the streets or in rough neighborhoods pay attention to things more. Yeah. And I think what people forget all the time. Is that brains are organic organs, they grow pathways that are necessary to survive, and what you do all the time you get superhighway's instead of trickling. So that's why I think people that have grown up that way or live that way actually have developed a skill to process that kind of information visual behavioral auditory, all that information is just goes through the pathways faster. So that it will help them survive. Yeah. So that's what you experienced. That's great. So now, you're on the ground in what happens at this point. Well, after we got the rest of the team in there, we that's when we started figuring out how we're going to go about this mission. How would how do we better selves with these people that we probably new fighting us? A year or two years earlier. So there's really no handbook for is no manual to do this kind of stuff. So we actually partnered up with a green beret Colonel that came in from headquarters just to kind of check morale across the battlespace. And this guy was like a the D in irregular symmetrical Horford so nights, he would set up school me. We were just all about direct action hounding targets. We didn't really understand travel gauge moments how to imbed yourself with locals how to medical services for the locals civil affairs. All that stuff. We use the hammer. So now we had to bring a whole toolbox Zabel, and it was a different as good a learning experience in his Colonel he when he was providing me with this information to Colonel actually my treat him. Let him be turned on her and go out on the nation's east probably the highest ranking tour gunner. He's probably listening. Yeah. That was me. All right. So how did regrets though? Well, one of the things we came into is in January. Fifteenth was going to be the first national elections free elections Iraq in Almar so Allen. Are you mean that we've all heard of this Alan bar province? Yeah. Wasn't that part of some sort of triangle of death death drive, anywhere? From Volusia west was pretty much untained cowboy country, it was Indian country abso- no-one really owned. So that was ours detainment. So yes, we were out there and the elections coming up in January fifteenth two thousand five so that was a really big deal for United States government on battlespace with the locals al-akbar wasn't that big a deal? But our government tends to focus top down versus bottom up, which we learn his mistaken, which we learned everywhere. That's the state relearn from our mistakes keep learning we'll just keep her. All right. So you're in. In a ham bar, the elections about to happen something go on with respect to that. While we were seal team, if you notice really well known for our snipers, you know, obviously, the American sniper and other snipers, so we were we designated to get out and take all the polling booths. And put sniper teams pretty much over the entire city to control the pulling boos when you say to control the polling booths some people might hear that and think oh, you're trying to keep people away from voting. But it's not it's to protect people one of. Yeah. Yes. It's the night before the polls opened in the morning, we snuck out throughout the city and put snipers all over the place. So they had three hundred sixty degree of all the polling centres let serve a little bit about whining. This is thousand five and we certainly have some listeners you may not have been adults or even tension during that time period, why wasn't necessary for United States seals to protect Iraqi. Polling places for an election being for us in America that just does not compute. We certainly don't do it. Right. Are we just generally don't do you don't need to do it today in our history? So why was that happening? Well, this was the first election to have. So in the country was not team. So to speak the certainty that the al-qaeda helped funnel money to insurgency surgency was kind of winning at this point. So we knew if we didn't get out of the country. If we didn't get something happening happened before May June of that year, the west might fall that was kind of orders toss like you have to do everything you can to keep this place going won't these first elections. So the president can show progress in this country, and he's elections are very important and most locals probably want those elections happen, right? Most of al-qaeda locals surgeons until they were danger. Anyone going to the polls me people were literally gonna have to risk their lives because terrorists did not want democracy. Yeah. No. They definitely the ones that did show up were risking their lives. Just having their faces spin being shown. So ladies to you all find it as hard to find a great fitting, bras, I do. I have found the best new bra-. It's called third love. And you know, it's best of all you can find your fit in sixty seconds with thirdlove's online fit finder than you can order tried on at home. 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And ZipRecruiter by going to recruiter dot com slash best case be. E S T C A S E. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash best case. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. This is on the edge of my seat here. I wanted what happened. Well, we sit on a snipers, and we started our I travel engagement with shakes you'd be looking Romani Iraq. There's a bunch of tribes in before we ignore the tribes, but we started to engage with them realizing they have power like mafia bosses. It's really just like the, mafia. So we engage with them paid them a lot of money, and they returned said we'll keep the violence off the streets for just one day if you were like okay, fair enough. So we set a sniper's out and that night during the city the battlespace commander, which was an army Colonel that owns kind of the physical property of the first for his America's concern got everyone off the battlespace. He said, hey, the curfews up. No Iraqis can be out. Iraqi army new American army. No one can be except for us. So no one can be out there except Ross. So anyone moving was fair game to be shot. So let me just make trainer stand that. So somehow word has gotten out to the public and obviously to the military. Which is easier than public. It seems to me. But okay that you shouldn't be out in about on election day or this time period that you're talking about or you risk getting shot by navy seals when they they didn't know they risking shop navy seals, but there was said to get off the battles base was like ten o'clock curfew got at night. So the night before. So the purpose of that out. Imagine would be to make sure that nobody's going to set up a shingle nest plant bomb. Exactly, right. Do something to anticipate. And then kill people when they were trying vote exactly what sort of a reformation of what the US secret service does before the president ration- is hard, you know, all the sewer tops and the mailboxes and gas guests trash cans, so that no one can plan a bomb the night before inauguration on the parade and all that this. This was an advanced party just like, you do personal security detail some different we were disciple people. So I mean, were you one of the people would you have been one of the people who were sitting there with a gun was that something on your dial as commander coordinated in? So what are your people thinking in their heads? Are they just gonna shoot first because of the stakes or are they going to try to evaluate when they get someone in their gun sights. Maybe nine ten at right when it gets on their sites. Are they gonna have to say, oh, wait a minute. That's a woman who didn't understand. She should be off the streets. She's just going to get milk or he's going to get milk. I mean, you wanna say like how do they make that decision robots to stories about? Oh, okay. Sorry. Look at that gym. I'm like psychic about this sounds like a very tense time. And things could go wrong very easily. Yeah. Absolutely very much. Go wrong. It was being watched by the highest levels are administration on your shoulder will. Yeah. Me in the shooter's people in. So that's that's a question. I wanna ask is about consequences. I've always been. Political junkie. I've followed this all very closely. I remember very clearly I Raqi elections in following it all on television through the news channels talk about a little bit about what you knew at the time that if anything went wrong what it would mean not just for you. But your people and for the Iraqis will we knew it was a big deal. We knew that with the war new trying to get a tipping point in the war that this was very strong. It's something that really needed to get done need to be successful because it would give power to the people of Iraq. Okay. We can actually control our own elections. We can have stability we can control will Qaeda because this time I'll kinda was really winning just a few dollars. It took millions of they were sending in it had a big influence on what was going on. There was a huge moult force multiplier. So we were worried about being over and not going in our favor in. So as part of the training for this mission was part of the instructions, I don't really know what you call it for this mission, especially for your people that were set up as snipers. Were they worried about being counter sniper? I'm sure I'm not using the right term. But how did you guard against that? You really don't. I mean, you we we have to take over buildings. And that's that's kind of a tricky thing we sneak into a building night someone lives there. Then we have often did that where we would either sneak in cut the door. Go through one of the windows. Take the family nicely cuff them up put them in a room with old guard. And then we'd take those buildings and uses sniper highs. We pay a lot of money the family repair. Repayable on the money. They a lot of times they, you know, once they realize Americans were not there hurt 'em. They feed us. They would give us information. They would you know, any they're like we can handle satellite phones. And they were call us if someone came in the area, so it became a good network. Just a fact that retreat them really well when I'm kind of trying to make is it you're almost minimizing. When you say, I'm putting sniper teams out around to protect the polling places. This is a major operation to put the people in sniper positions around the bowling blazes. Yeah. Yeah. We we do that all the time. I mean, it was we were doing that Dan day out. But this time we knew it was it was a big deal because it was the elections and that was going to make it to national news. You know, does more will it about I think about zero dark thirty if you will one of our site. You mean it was during a minutes after midnight or you mean it was dark. We don't remember the time. There's too early in the morning early in the morning one of our snipers check in now to say George enjoy. Very seasoned sniper been around the horn lot of combat point at times, he checks in says, hey, I have four people in target. They're all armed on the polling site. So he reports in I call him the battlespace commander the army colonels, his staff might get you. Sure. No one's on battlespace positive knowing's out there in gung timeframe for this. And when you say he called instead of got four armed people is at radio is using a cell phone. I had that actually to encrypted radio that he calls to me. I pick up another phone. Same time cleared it with the battlespace commanders happens real quick, thirty seconds. Maybe forty five seconds. Like, no one's there. William you say no one's there. You mean, none of our people are there and no Iraqis because we had accountability. I know legitimate a legitimate, Iraqis Iraqi police or military. Yeah, he's okay. So we knew we thought we had them all contained, but we didn't know for sure at this time. But we did believe we did. So so then well, I gave George the cleared hot. I say, hey. I say, hey, if you you can positively identify them, they're armed you can shoot them. Cleared. Hot means hot. That's what it means. Fire will that they are. They're determined to be threat. Because how did we get the word out that no one was the on street at this point the conventional forces pass it around for long a week or two to all the locals all the tribal leaders pass it to their people on the military, general the Iraqi military generals pass the word out. We just hope that everyone got the word is that like Adam maybe this is just on the prosecutor can't sort of touchy feely question. Most of us listening to this talking to you right now, I'm excluding Jim, of course. But most of us will never be in a situation where we are responsible for the death of another human being sort of volition really that is we are doing it on purpose. Like, we are saying yes kill that person. Right. In very limited circumstances will that ever happened to us. So can you describe for me, how your training comes into that decision making or whether it's an instantaneous thing in you don't even think about it. Is it something you agonize over later or hanging is in it for about ten seconds before you say you're cleared hot because you know, if four people might be about to die. And so what does that make the cow? Does that make you feel a think each person each scenario? It varies people are different right? I mean, we all have different expectations. But seals understand we go down range into a comments like this. We understand what we're doing. There's no 'ambiguities involve. They don't call you in it's to life or death situation. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's we come in to be the tip of the spear. So you got four people. But when we think he's answering me. The train prosecutor NBC's that you have put it off on seals in general. But you haven't told me how it makes you feel as say each deployment of felt a little different personally. I think the first time I took my weapon off safe included so much face in the middle of the night was a little bit strange. I had I mean, it was I this momentary kind of feeling that hit over me for a second was just I had an aversion to it just didn't feel normal. Yeah. But I mean it goes away, but it has to because that's your job. Yeah. But I I think I think people even sales were very conscious of that. It's not like, we're just steely eyed killers guys are very conscious of it. So you were conscious of it that was very conscious on it. So our you're feeling when you gave him the outdoor. Well, I told him I always told the guys on target know made it very clear that it's your discretion. When she cleared you do what you do. I'll cleared it you can shoot it will drop them there for. Armed sub acute aside. And will George proceed he's very it was very seasoned. So he looked he looked on target in the clear shot only two hundred meters away with sniper rifle that's like no one can miss and some reason in his gut. He just reported back. They just they're not moving. They're bad. Yeah. He says they want. These walking like they belong there. That's what he said. Well, it's up to you. So he just waited and waited for a long time. And he just watched him watched them and watch them. And what did they end up doing? Well, when the sun came up noth- light came up with the actually use scopes versus night-vision, they realized that was four Raqi police officers. Oh my God. Are they are they still alive at this point? They're still alive. Why were they out there? They snuck outside because they were on the side of Iraqi people so strongly they snuck outside the wire to protect booth themselves because our missions were apes seeing. No, they didn't know we were out there about to shoot them in Georgia. I'm sure that's not as real name, but George could have killed more arachne police officers. It would have been a national incident. It would have been horrific. Oh, absolutely. Could have changed. The course of what ever we were doing very strategic decision. He made in the NASCAR. This did George get the highest medal hospital to be awarded to the military for valor for the courage of that decision that did not cause that's right for not fire. The short answer is no the military doesn't give courageous restraint metals. So the things that people don't know could have happened. Thought I get it. I understand like loans. I understand getting medals for taking lives and situations where you're protecting yourselves or others. I totally understand that. And that is incredibly a valorous in it merits every accolade that we can give them. But it does seem like we ought to give like you said, it's a great phrase courageous restraint medal. We fought that for a long time because the things that people don't know could have happened. If you get if you get into bad situation, pick a gun fight and a lot of people get hurt. People get a lot of big medals. But if you leave the situation of you going claimed estime don't get found out we get nothing to it is Senate. It's just it to me. It's like the people who know what was done and not done. They should be promoting and giving medals people who actually participate in stuff even if that never come to light of day. What's interesting to me is to wonder about George so now wondering whether the next time George was cleared hot he hesitated. Because he now has this as part of his mental state. He's thinking to himself. Why could've killed innocent people in that situation. So I have to be doubly worried about doing the next which could actually be detrimental. Right. Well, very that could have happened. But it didn't happen George went onto be we actually left another highly classified job for us. And he did really well. So the next time George was cleared hot George had no good to go. That's great amazing story. It is amazing story. Did you ever get a chance to talk to those cops? Now now, we don't probably have any idea have drawn integrate. I was gonna ask you that. If they had any idea that they weren't a so close to being blown up. Wow. That's crazy. Manley lucky lucky that there was team of professionals on the other side of that scope guy with an instinct. Yeah, they don't walk. They don't look like they walk bat. Okay. Fair enough. It were treatment. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Wow. What's pretty cool? So tell us to consider this a best case or worst case. And why I think it's the best case because I think the people the people listening don't get the hear these stories to be honest with you, you know, in some more of the a shot these guys we do that which happens. But I think they listen to humanity that comes out of this. And that people that are down in combat doing the work for Americans. They see okay. These are not just steal Yod killers are thinkers, and they're good people. Not there. He'll people there wars Windsor. Also, will that was a really interesting and nail biting story. And I'm sure there are for that for everyone. You can talk about there's probably thousand that you can't talk about. But we really appreciate your service and service that you're men provided and women. There's a lot of women in your in your group there, and I hope that, you know, all of them are sleeping well at night because I know people come back from these missions with a lot of bags. Yeah. I just wanna say, thank you. I know our listeners now this posted about it. But and for those who are new at his a double bronze star winning American hero. Thank you. And so we're really excited to have you. I guarantee you we will have you back deal. All right. Thank you will. Thank you. For listening to best case worst case signing off till next. This case worst-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike. Music composed and performed by Simba Suva and hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to do something about child sexual abuse darkness delight can help did you know that more than ninety percent of the time children are sexually abused by someone. They know Jim this isn't about stranger danger. 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