4 Episode results for "Jim Fallow"
Loneliness, Tyranny, and the Coronavirus
"This is the political scene a weekly conversation with New Yorker Writers and guests about politics. It's Thursday may seventh. I'm Dorothy Wickham editor of The New Yorker. The Corona virus has brought with it a new vocabulary. That's familiar to everyone not just previously arcane medical and scientific terms but phrases that apply to our daily lives social distancing self-isolation and shelter in place to name. Just a few. Even begin to reopen millions of people around the world remain confined to their homes vast numbers of whom live alone. The experience of acute isolation has never been so pervasive and it brings its own dangers as former surgeon. General Vivek Murthy told. Cbs this morning in two thousand seventeen years before the pandemic hit it turns out that loneliness is associated with a reduction in your lifespan. That is as severe as a reduction lifespan with smoking. Fifteen cigarettes a day. It's greater than the impact on mortality of obesity. And part of this is because it loneliness actually places us in a stress state me evolve to be social creatures in thousands of years ago with you connected to other people. You are more likely to stable food supply. I and to be protected from predators. So when you're disconnected you'RE IN STRESS STATE. When that happens chronically it can have a profound impact on your help. Masha Gessen New Yorker Staff writer joins me to discuss the social and political consequences of loneliness and the hazards and potential for a post pandemic world. Masha welcome to the program. Thank you hit or anything so great to have you here. I wanted to talk to you because you have an unusual perspective on loneliness that I think is going to be helpful to our listeners that I know it has been to me. You were born. In Soviet Russia and have shuttled between the US and Russia throughout your life you written a lot about totalitarianism in Russia and elsewhere. So in thinking about loneliness you turn to the political theorist Hannah Arendt and her book the origins of totalitarianism. What did you find there will yes? I'm anxious I turned to the origins of totalitarianism or two are so in the very last section of the book aren't has an exploration. I think one of the most profound expirations of the ideas of isolation loneliness and solitude and basically what she writes is that isolation is necessary for tyrannies. It's sometimes a precondition always the consequence isolating. She means separating people from one another not necessarily physically but politically so that they can't act together. Loneliness is the loss of connection to the world. The loss of the ability to contribute to the world and the loss of what she describes as the reflection of oneself in others and she writes that loneliness is the defining condition of totalitarianism to tell. The terrorism aims to rob us of the ability to act with others and of the ability to form opinions right and so long as an isolation accomplished that and sold it is the opposite of both of the state's solitude is a protective status estate when you can think and you can create which of course. I think this is what we so desperately need right now. You know it's interesting. A couple of other writers have told me that as they try to make sense of how they're experiencing the lockdown that superficially their lives really haven't changed that much. They're used to spending days at a time in front of their computer screens. They communicate mainly through phone calls texts and email it but of course everything else is radically different so they do talk about feeling lonely in a new way exactly in a strange. I think have also gone through stages At first I felt almost a little bit liberated. I no longer had to go from New York to Amherst to teach my classes. I could just stay wherever I was even more. Interestingly there was a kind of erasure just of distance right. I started zooming with my closest friends in Moscow every Sunday. Suddenly it was almost revelation. But but there's no distance we can just get on zoom. There's no difference between talking to my friend in Moscow and talking to my friend in the one St over right. There's no distance anymore and that felt liberating for a minute and then started wearing very very thin. And you know there's been a wealth of writing about why Zuma's so frustrating exhausting and anxiety provoking But it's a whole other level. One that anxiety is layered on top of your closest relationships not just in your relationships with students for example and this must be particularly difficult for people who are living alone. I you know you hear about people missing. Just you know casual contact touch and the kind of interplay of emotion that is just not present on the screen. There was a beautiful post by the art curator. Ruth Knock. She boasted that. She hadn't been touched in however many weeks and hadn't touched anyone however many weeks and she said. I wonder if in in the Africa quarantine people will be divided into two categories. Those who were touched in those who weren't and that struck me as as as an extraordinary observation right. I mean those of us who are stuck with in in in quarters that are too close for comfort. Sometimes with our families have the incredible luxury of all kinds of touch which which people who live alone. Just just don't and I think that that's a mortifying experience right that usually is reserved for people in solitary right the the experience of not having any touch for weeks on getting back to the bigger political picture here that the pandemic is obviously creating both political problems and rather frightening opportunities. And we've seen that one of trump's talents if you can call it. That is his ability to stoke fear. Could you talk a little bit about that? And what checks remain in the United States against his autocratic tendencies. So I think this is fascinating. If we weren't living through it would be really an extraordinary kind of theoretical problem because the elements of Of autocracy are usually talked about as terror isolation non-participation in politics and this weird situation that we find ourselves in we are I think having the experience in some ways of the subjects of Italian society because we're living with this In in what could be called tear. It ord least is state of constant anxiety because there's an actual threat to our personal safety at any given time right and and then we're by going home and by Sofi isolating we're creating or we have created the closest that we have probably seen to textbook definition of authoritarianism in a storage area in St. You'll have one authoritarian leader. Were a group making the governing decisions. And you can't do anything about it. You're just supposed to tend to your private life that's authoritarianism. We went home over own volition in made. Our lives consist entirely of the private just while the government is making decisions that have immediate immediate impact on our lives. People have compared trump's response to cove nineteen to the Soviet response to the chur noble nuclear disaster in nineteen eighty. Does that seem like a proper analogy to you? It's a useful analogy. I mean obviously with historical analogies there you can focus on the differences in their and their plenty that there's some really interesting and scary similarities and probably the biggest is just a under disregard for human life that was a feature of the Soviet government. It again is. I'm going to go back to our end. it's a feature of society are android that the only societies that can beat. The Taliban are ones that can disregard massey population. And this is what we're seeing. We're seeing trump now again with talk reopening America again. We're seeing that just complete lack of regard College meant of the scale of death. Because he doesn't care it's completely chilling. You wrote a few weeks ago that the biggest gift the pandemic may give trump is the opportunity to develop a greater number people in his reality. And I guess that's version of what you're saying here. Yes what we have lived with for the last now. Three and a half years is a kind of bifurcated reality where you can sort of accept. Trump's view of the world and one of my favorite examples is of course they inauguration when he said that the sun came out when in fact we have seen it on TV. And we could. We could re watch it and see that it was actually raining. It was a kind of moment when trump basically Make choice in you going to believe your own physical sensations or what I tell you you can live in the anxiety. The extreme discomfort of constantly trying to carry two irreconcilable realities in your head or you can just embrace my reality and then you you're no longer cognitively stressed. You can just live with me here in this box. News Affirms Reality Bubble but now of course we have a lot less that has given to us in in physical sensation in lived experience. Especially those of us who were not going outside much. A choice between two realities has become an away starker. But it's also much easier to just enter trump's reality but will that change as some red states reopen trump supporters get sick. Is there any point at which reality actually does penetrate well? I'm not holding a whole lot of hope for sort of reality changing individual worldviews because the thing about entering a kind of trump in reality is that it's entirely encapsulated that than anything that happens to contract it can only be used to ferment just to to try to strike perhaps somewhat more hopeful note way. We have a piece in the magazine which you haven't seen yet by Shia Tolentino whose whose writing about some of these mutual aid organizations these scraps roots groups. That are springing up around the country to deliver food and medicine to people who need it and they're also were all seeing a number of local leaders and governors who are doing everything they can to fill the void in the horrific federal response and and to lay out the truth. About what reopen the economy is going to mean in terms of new infections and deaths. Are they any match for this? President who seems to have given new meaning to the term the bully pulpit Well it depends on how you think about it. I'm not I'm not despondent about November. I I have some hope but I'm really worried about in particular of the political the largest political implications of the mutual aid societies Because you know I think that American Culture American political culture is really terribly terribly suited for crisis like this. We have away in our political speech to of always framing everything in terms of individual action individual responsibility because there are other ways to think about us and to think about a public health crisis as a problem of community and society rather than a subject or an object for individual action so mutual aid societies. Worry me for the same reason. Even though of course people acting together is it's absolutely essential it reflects our basic humanity but it is also it also perpetuates this vacuum of government I don't have the same worries about governors. I think that's governors are actually at some governors are actually doing their jobs and that's a beautiful thing to see but I wish there were more reflection on. Just how necessary government is and how new amount of community effort can or should substitute for a lack of actual government. This is what we create states for. This is what we made politics for two to solve problems that can't and shouldn't be sold individual all of the underlying problems of our democracy or just grotesquely laid bare right now. You know I was struck you you had mentioned in your most recent piece an essay by the Indian writer and activist Arundhati Roy that she wrote for the Financial Times noting that historically pandemics have forced humans to break with the past and she thinks that nothing could be worse in the months ahead than a return to normality and since so many of us are now seeing all of the things in government that are broken and just how badly we need the federal government. Do you think that there is a possibility that substantive political changes can emerge from this crisis? I think there's a possibility I don't know there's a likelihood But certainly crises are always moments of politic opportunity Klein who pointed out that ideas. That seemed marginal just a week before. The Corona virus pandemic seem almost mainstream few weeks such as Universal healthcare but also the idea of universal basic income. Those things are kind of hopeful. But also we need to rethink so much. There's so much that is that is it's not just our federal government and it's not just older very importantly our attitude government in this idea. That government has kind of a necessary evil rather than common good. But I think that there's opportunity here to rethink for example education. I don't think it's ever been quite so transparent Would schools are for schools in our society for warehousing children? But it's so that parents can go to work in. What is this thing that we have created for kids or for for our industry so that so that parents can go to work so there are a lot of things to to question and I wonder if we have the capacity and the will to show just to follow up on on the coming election? What does give you hope? Well it gives me. Hope is that trump hasn't had as much of a pandemic bump as other western leaders even ones who haven't done a terribly good job and even though his ratings his approval ratings were have been higher during a panic than ever before. They're so pretty low for sitting president so that gives me a little bit of hope. I had The amazing journalist Jim Fallow speak to one of my classes recently and he said that he thinks that trump is going to lose if the laws of physics still obtain so. My question is do the laws of physics obtain. I'm not sure about that so that that's that's the part that I fear. I think that the laws of physics maybe stopped obtaining in two thousand sixteen and in that case. Maybe my hope is misplaced. I'm you know I'm terribly worried about our inability as media to to keep amplifying the election campaign I gather Joe Biden is doing a lot of things from his basement. One wouldn't know about it by looking at the front pages of the newspapers or the television screen. The right now this is happening because there's just this overwhelming sense of urgency to report everything on the corona virus. Which of course I feel too. I feel like all my attempts to write about anything else have left me very frustrated because I I can't like all I want to know and try to contribute toward is is is the Garona virus coverage but But the picture of the world that creates is all trump all the time. That's a sober note to end. I'm Annika gets you to come back a little bit closer to the election and we'll we'll talk further about that. Thank you so much Marcia. Thank you dorothy. Masha Gessen is a staff writer. At The New Yorker and the author of eleven books including surviving autocracy and the future is history how totalitarianism reclaimed Russia. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker and your podcast APP and find more political analysis and commentary on New Yorker Dot Com. Feel free to rate and review us on Apple podcasts our theme music by Russell. Gillespie this program was produced by Alex Barron and Kylie Warner For New Yorker Dot Com. I'm Dorothy WICCAN.
PURPLE EPISODE 1: Is Democracy up for grabs?
"Hi this is Katie. Rogers executive producer of on the media this holiday week. We're featuring a series of conversations about an alarming loss of trust faith and devotion ocean by Americans for American democracy. This mini series is part of a month long campaign called the project for democracy as strictly nonpartisan apolitical. A political effort are very NBC. Garfield is one of the Purple Project organizers. We recommend that you listen to this series in order this is episode one in which bulb explodes with our form of government truly is up for grabs. Democracy is in trouble not necessarily because for current Erin political mayhem or even because of the accumulated sins and failures of American society but because vast swaths of the public are giving up the system that has governed us for two hundred and forty three years. Here are some alarming data points. One in two thousand eighteen. Only thirty three percent of general population expressed trust for government. To in another survey among fourteen hundred adults asked about the importance of democracy. Chrissy only thirty nine percent of younger participants said absolutely important three. In Twenty Eighteen Democracy Fund survey of five thousand Americans twenty four percent of respondents expressed support for a strong leader who doesn't have to bother with Congress or elections and eighteen percent for army rule of course eighteen percent of Americans believe in alien abductions and there is still overriding for writing majority support for democracy across all polling but the expressions of disaffection are growing and the metrics of trust are plummeting. The question is what as society we are to do about it and who exactly will be doing the doing. Will it be the schools. Will it be civil society. Will it be membership and fraternal organizations. Like the boy scouts. Aarp and the Rotary Club. Will it be political leaders and not. Incidentally will it be the media in this miniseries will be talking that over but will begin with the actual state of public public sentiment and public participation. Eric Liu is the CO founder and CEO of Citizen University and Co Chair of the American Can Academy of Arts and Sciences Commission on the practice of democratic citizenship. A two year survey of American sentiment's and civic participation meant to to suggest solutions for widespread disaffection Eric. Welcome to on the media so good to be with you. Thanks for having me all right. I described those various data. Points as alarming. Am I just being you know alarmist. I don't think you are. I think the the body politic is sick democracy works only if enough of US believe democracy works and that's not a totality is actually a statement of the fragile mutual will agreement that has to unfold. You know many millions of times over for US actually sustain a sense that this system is legitimate enough to not quit on it and in normal times. We don't even notice that millionfold mutual agreement but in abnormal times like today. When he started sending evaporating he realized just how fragile blue sustain that sense of civic safe? You're blue ribbon. Commission on the practice of democratic citizenship has been Documenting the trajectory of public sentiment for more than a year. Now and I know it's report won't be issued till May but there are preliminary findings some having to do with propaganda some with the lack of civics education. Some having to do with filter bubbles thousand social media some having to do just with our current political chaos. Is that a good short list of root causes for disaffection. There's another big ones that I would add. And that is of course the tectonic levels of inequality and concentration of wealth that have unfolded in the United States. And actually you know there's societies around the world over the last generation. And when you get that kind of clumping and hoarding a voice and money and clout and political power you get it's the kind of Fragility that you see. In our political system you get people on both the left and the right who are angry and populist and their willingness to burn down the system and into to mistrust experts of any stripe just to de legitimize the whole endeavour because in many ways the whole endeavour has not delivered for them. And so when you look at the ways in which you know. Russia for instance is deploying to exploit our divisions yes. That's a malevolent set of act that they would just bounce right off us. Had we had a healthy body politic take the immune system of the body politic and strong enough to resist these viral efforts to exploit our divisions in our fears and our anxiety so when we look for career what to blame we can't ignore actual failure and betrayal whether the economic inequality injustice that you described or countless other sins and slights and scandals and surrenders from the original sin of slavery straight through the frustration. Astray Shin isn't just imagined right in many ways left or right democracy has just plain disappointed. I think that's right. Let Democracy has compounded. Is this market fundamentalism. And it's hyper individualism in this globalised. Textual Economic Age. That has made made it more possible. Culturally ethically morally to pretend that it's truly every man or woman themselves the way that democracy has become become a handmaiden to this mark imperialism. Right now is what has left so many people so cynical but we have to think about how we can take responsibility for things if asking. How do we create a sense of invitation? Back into a public sphere that does not feel like a suckers game to not feel like a thing. Hey come on in here so that you can be taken advantage of again. Withdrawing from civic life is perhaps rational response to legitimate grievance but Geez you know even during the thick of the Vietnam War which was simultaneous with civil rights protests around the country in the sixties there was was no broad sentiment for ditching democracy abandoning the government trust in the system of government at least according to tracking being polls at the time remains quite high winds changed one of things that is driving. This loss of faith in democracy is this depth of inequality during the Vietnam era economy was still growing robustly and prosperity was much more widely shared than the prosperity of say. Save the last decade since the great recession when you think about the ways in which overnight percent of the gains of the quote recovery from the great recession and the financial collapse have accrued to the very top one and ten percent of Americans. You don't have a feeling that we're all together. You don't have a feeling that a rising tide will lift all boats. You have a feeling that a rising tide is GonNa believe me beached so that's one of the big ships. The other thing that has changed you know when you ask the question you know. Why is it that even in that crisis fifty years ago people still maintain faith in democracy part of the reasons? If I may be honest. Is that the public square back then was still predominantly white and relatively privileged and we now have far more inclusive public blue square. We have now far wider dispersion of expectations of inclusion among people who fifty seventy five years ago just knew right off the bat. They weren't going to be included included. Eric Liu was not getting interview. National Public Radio shows fifty years ago. Talk about the State of democracy in the United States. The commission isn't just coating survey data. You are hitting the hustings talking to Americans border to border coast to coast about the state of the society. Eddie and their sentiments. Is there anything that's jumped out at. You perhaps especially sally enter just unexpected from the interviews that you're conducting acting of course all of our tension is being sucked up by the psychodrama of what's going on in national politics right now in DC but in communities around the country there are people trying to re rig rules. They're trying to include people who've been excluded whether by race by excelling status by class in other ways to reincorporate breaking into civic lies and decision making their efforts to just renew faith and democracy. That isn't about blind exploitation but it's about creating opportunities for for people to serve together trying to solve problems together that story that is emerging from the bottom up in towns across America is under hole in my view and our work. As a commissioned we have seen and heard a lot of that and heard kind of a plea from people we've spoken with and spent time with. Please make this part of the story. Not only because it's true. And we feel under heard in Kansas City or San Bernardino or Akron or Brownsville Minnesota wherever it might be but also because we need to have the belts so that it can become contagious so that people can realize that all hope is not lost in that even as things sink more deeply into crisis in in DC that we the people retaining capacity for renewal and responsibility both at the local level but in a way that networks to other people working at a local level. And that's what's different today. Compared to fifty seventy five years ago at the wedding that is possible of these kinds of bottom up efforts. It's funny that you mentioned San Bernardino because that's one of the key locations for deb and Jim Fallow in their book where they went to find democracy working A. and located in about ninety percent of America including their hometown of San Bernardino California. It's easy to be distracted acted and become dispirited. By what happens inside the beltway or in state capitals but if you want to see democracy work why go to your city council. Insult most likely. It's doing its job. Just fine right there. With the honest there are plenty of places where it's not it'd be eight is still far more possible where it's not working to reread the game to insert yourself into the map of power to rewrite bat map by showing up by organizing people and ideas and and attention in a way that is far more palpable and achievable at the level of your town. Your County your neighborhood again. I don't probably in many of your listeners. Live in places where the game is rigged my only plea. There's to say this is an arena where you live where you can actually rig the game. We should observe that the disaffection action and doubt that is now so unsettling the United States of America is not occurring vacuum around the Western world. uh-huh spurred mainly by immigration authoritarianism and nationalism are on the rise. You talked about virus. Is it a global contagion. It is at one global contagion and at the same time the thing that is unique about the way this plays out in the United States. Is that the United States. There's a particularly distinct bird actually because often put it this way. We in the United States are trying to become planet. Earth First Mass Multi Racial Democratic Republic there have been other societies and history of human societies. That have tried one two or three Those marks but no one is excessively. Hit all four and it's hard especially hard economically. You have this undercurrent of both concentration `concentration of wealth and And the increase of scarcity and anxiety and status things -iety but I think what are exceptional burden and responsibility is right now. Is that the United States. It's still even in the midst of today's age relative native ISM. We still are the generator of the hybrids that the rest of the world needs. There are so many ways in which our responsibility right now to resist. But I call purity thinking purity of bloodline the purity of the folk of a people the purity of an ideology. That's what spreading around. The world is kind of because people feel quote contaminated by the other. We in America have a special responsibility to resist pissed. That call for purity and in fact double down on our strength which is hybrid eighty and creating combinations and mongoloids mixes of ideas taught music and humanity that the rest of the world need when I was a kid. And maybe when you were to civics and history we were taught with a bit of jingoistic flavor. Greatest country on earth beacon to the world shining city on a hill. The whole deal. It May. It's not have been indoctrination exactly but it was indoctrination. Wish our curriculum now are a little more forthright right about things like the trail of tears and the Vietnam War and the internment of Japanese Americans during World War Two to slavery and that is great that we are reckoning more with the less inspiring part of our nation's history. But could we do. Maybe with a little more inculcation you know. A reminder of our blessings of our exceptionalism if that really exists exists would that be useful. This is not a country defined only by enslavement by the trail of tears and by displacement and genocide of native peoples or not only defined by these points and I think what a grownup approach acidic would be able to do is to synthesize the thesis and the antithesis to merge the good the bad and the ugly into a single-story and to recognize that under girding. That story is a set of ideas and promises. They're not about exceptionalism the sense of self-congratulation much less jingoism their exceptional in the sense that they were an exceptional burden upon us. That says the people in the government needs to live up to this standard deseve promises that were a baked into the experiment from the beginning and that every single decade every single day that the country fails else to live up to that set of baked in. Promises is a day of shortcoming and failure and even the trail there is no such idea and other countries we have that idea and it is a great burden to us us And it's a creed that if you actually take seriously and I don't mean as an individual philosopher. I mean as a society if we do in fact believe in equal justice under law. Well well that's a great burden to deliver upon it. That means we're going to have to do a whole bunch of things and that requires both understanding when we've gotten it right How we persist in getting it wrong long and how the one can actually inform the remedy of the other that is a full spectrum view of our history of ourselves and our civic Inheritance and responsibility Eric. Thank you so much. Thank you for having this conversation really enjoyed Eric. Liu Is the CO founder and CEO of Citizen University and Co Chair of the Commission on the practice of democratic citizenship. Its report will be unveiled in May of Twenty Twenty this holiday week. The Purple Project for Democracy is hosting the Great Thanksgiving taking asking young Americans to hijack the evening program to turn it away from arguments about politics toward thankfulness for our freedoms and reflection on where we're headed learn more at we the Purple Dot Org
Solar Probe Takes Closest-Ever Photos Of Sun; Zadie Smith's Essay Collection
"From NPR and Wbz Robin Young I'm Jeremy Hobson. It's here and now, and while the NBA bubble remains intact so far major league baseball hit a snag in its restart. The League has cancelled game set for today in Miami and Philadelphia, because a number of players for the Miami marlins tested positive for covid nineteen, meanwhile, the top health official in Starr County Texas Jose Vasquez has formed a committee to drop guidelines for doctors to choose patients in the county's only hospital, who will not survive covid nineteen, and may go home to die with loved ones to free up resources, baronies, Garcia is with the Monitor newspaper mcallen Texas. She joins us from Alamo Veronese. How is that announcement of this committee resonating there? A lot of people are having reactions that you would expect. They're very armed by the news, but you know Dr Jose Vasquez. He's trying to express it. This is not completely out of the ordinary. You know that hospitals do have the communities that make these types of of decisions, and unfortunately he's saying that they're reaching a point there at star, Star County. where they're having to make these type of decision because of the lack of resources that they have their. and. We understand that this is a very rural area. This is the only hospital and some healthcare workers there who have also come down with covid nineteen are saying things like you know they. They really don't even have an ICU normally and they're having to do this kind of work. Yeah. That's right. You Dr. Baskets as soon as he would say that. As soon as you had a patient who needed to be intimated, who will required those intensive care unit services? They had to automatically be transferred because they just don't have that at that hospital. And he reported to us that he was searching as far as New York to try to get these patients, Abed, but it was. It was too much on. Thankfully, they've received some. Some services I believe from the Navy recently the Governor Greg Abbott, not certainly that they were sending two navy teams to grant city where the hospital is located. So there thankfully, receiving I believe it was chew. Intensive intensiveness and Several nurses who are helping with that, so they are able now to care for some of these patients, but again those we are limited, so they're having to make decision based on their probability of survival well, and you're right. This does happen. Elsewhere Arizona is starting to roll out care standards four when ICU beds ventilators are in short supply, and it's something that decision that doctors. have to make outside of covid nineteen. When do you stop treating someone? Of course, this is different in that. If there are no other hospitals to take them in the area, we see that patients from your county are getting helicoptered out to other areas. If there's no one to take them. They may be going home to die with Sirius cove in nineteen. Is there a fear about that? Yeah absolutely I mean already. There's just this Under reporting of deaths at home, and that's another problem that they're facing down there. So yeah, it complicates so many things and I'm just wondering, too. We understand. Star County was a success initially few cases at the start of the pandemic reach Texas. But then the state reopened are people that are thinking that. Maybe that had something to do with it. The Spike. You have now? Absolutely because you know back in April, they went I believe. It was nearly three weeks without a single case. And towards the end there they did have like one or two cases pop up within a single family, but those weren't. Community spread right. It was just like a single family. You know unfortunately infecting one another, and that's how that happened, but then after. Governor Abbot kind of opened the the state reopen the economy? That's when the case numbers there exploded. And that to win, we saw hospitals. All across the valley, being completely inundated with. Kobe Hospital Kobe cases, and that's just how it's been. Since the economy reopened and I mean you'll hear it from county officials during press conference. No, it's very clear to them that what the differences they will, they will say the only difference is that our economy reopened and we're no longer able to enforce shelter in place orders. Bernie's Garcia. Normally we'd be asking you about the flooding from the hurricane in that area, but just. It can't be helping the situation. No, absolutely not, and so the good thing that I did speak to I. Did ask about hospitals and how they're doing here. Thankfully, none of them are putting any flooding. So that's great, but they have said that few of the employees have called in saying that they were having trouble getting to work, but then those cases their. Hostels are sending out trucks to pick up those employees. So, that's that's okay for them, so your. Furnace Cassia reporter who covers Star County for the Monitor newspaper based in mcallen. Texas baronies just wish you well with everything going on there. Thank you so much. Thank you. Florida overtook New York in the number of coronavirus cases over the weekend, and is now second to California so some officials in the state of Florida are looking at more creative ways to reach out to the younger generation who've been making up a bigger share of new infections than they were before for member station W.. L. R. N. in Miami Veronica's arghovie reports. Carol beaks had been hoping she would get a break this summer from dealing with the pandemic. She's the chief nursing officer at Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami. And we've more younger people falling ill to the virus. Her message to them is direct lot of Muslim ages. Will here for US Open were masks for us. Definitely her hospital is part of Florida's largest public health system berry young healthy. They workout every day somewhere. Vegans and we have people that have. Progressed the young people that not done well, and we see it around the country around the world, so no one is immune regardless of age. You know now you're seeing an children. Her colleague Dr. David. They'll last their that the hospitals. ICU medical director says young people need to get the message about how dangerous cove in thousand nine nineteen is they gone? Die From nineteen so. That the people with a lot of medical decisions died. That's-that's will we see young people with no medical issue. Stein Twenty, eight year old Jasmine Padron of Miami Gardens says the early focus on older people left younger people feeling less at risk I feel like a lot of people within my age group are not really taking seriously since at the beginning of the pandemic, a kind of sounded like it only affected people so I feel like they just act like I'm young. I don't have a problem with that. Miami Beach Mayor. Dan Gelber has been trying to reach young people. He recently posted this video like college age daughters. Sophie and Hannah recently informed me that I might not be the Best Messenger to deliver that admonishment to younger people who currently seem to be spreading the virus disproportionately. Here is a key message from one of our residents. Who is slightly more current. Shock Miami Beach Mayor's committee, Kobe recovery DJ cabin and our talk to the YO world. Our talking everybody doesn't matter what age you are. This is very serious. We have to wear masks Mayor Gilbert. Tapped DJ Kelly the popular hip hop artists to get that message out to young people, because who delivers the message is important. That's according to Justin guest a professor at George Mason. University in Virginia and author of mass appeal, communicating policy ideas in multiple media, so imagine if some of Florida's most famous. Famous celebrities I. Most iconic individuals were actually featured all over on poster art, and and billboards, wearing masks right that sets norm, and that picture as they say is worth many more words than any kind of op. Ed that glorious, Stefan or J. LO could possibly be writing, so there are so many creative ways to communicate your ideas, especially as simplistic as can you please wear a mask where those messages appear is also important, says Dr J. Butler he specializes in infectious diseases at the CDC. That can be used include social media We're exploring law Koksal. PSA's are a bit older, but that is something that in the right media can help to reach younger people as well I don't really turn on the news. This is about Bradshaw. She is twenty three and just finish nursing school. My Mom Trinitron so I hear a little bit of that, but I don't that's. That's not my main focus of media. It's actually like grab. She says she follows the CDC on Instagram and read Cirkovic related content whether you use instagram Tiktok the APP for one minute videos or cable television to get your information. What the message says is still key, says Kathleen Hall Jamieson. Who Directs the Annenberg? Public Policy. Center of the University of Pennsylvania Jamison. Says Cova. Messaging should. Should avoid words. People don't usually use and do a better job of explaining the science beyond words like a symptomatic, so the thing we have not taught the public to the extent that we ought to is what we mean when we say a symptomatic transmission, so even if you don't have any symptoms, you might still have covid and spread the disease. Jamison says that information needs to be. Be Included in mass messaging and the message she says shouldn't be mixed at the beginning of that pandemic all reminds says experts didn't recommend public wear masks, but preserve them for healthcare workers, scientists message is always going to be one that is is updating when you're confronting something that is brand new. We highlights another communications challenge how to handle a changing message in a quickly evolving pandemic. For here and now I'm bid on I. Go of yet in Miami. As Congress races to pass another one trillion dollars plus of emergency, coronavirus economic relief with just days to go until extra unemployment benefits are set to expire. Let's get the view of one of the country's top economists Mohamed Al Arian Chief Economic Adviser at all eons and president elect of Queen's College. Cambridge Mohamed and welcome back to here now. Thank you for having me. We're hearing that this stimulus will include another round of those twelve hundred dollar direct payments to Americans. How helpful do you think those have been for families and for the economy? They've definitely been helpful, and as you point out that have been helpful, both for the people who them and for the economy as a whole, we continue to live in a world where people cannot get jobs for no fault of their own. Certain states have gone backwards now on the economic opening because of health reasons, people are losing jobs again. And there's a sense that household economic and security is going up and some people are really suffering, so there was a good case for it. The problem is that we need to find a better solution than simply repeating the same thing over and over again, why? Because fundamentally there was a conflict that must be resolved, and that is the conflict between lives and livelihood. We can't beat this pendulum swings which Wean we opening and then closing again we opening and closing, and we have to reconcile health with economic opening, and you look around the world. It is possible if people change behaviors. Republicans don't want to continue these six hundred dollars a week. Extra unemployment payments. Here's the White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, speaking yesterday on ABC's this week. The original unemployment benefits actually paid people to stay home, and actually a lot of people got more money staying at home than they were would going back to work, and so the president's been very clear. Our Republican senators have been very clear. We're not going to stand that provision. What do you think about that? Because this has been an argument that's been made a many times. Especially by small business owners saying I can't get my workers to come back because they're making more unemployment than I can pay them at the same time, people who are without a job are still suffering a lot and they need the extra money. and. Desta balance now. It is true that full some people. They were better off staying at home than going back to that jobs. That argument was valid when we were reopening, and the hope was that we were going to continue we opening. It has become less so now and I think it points to a fundamental. Issue which is how should a safety net be set if there are few people that benefit more than they should do you penalize? And, if the economy is going back to normal, the answer is no okay. You shouldn't allow people to get paid more for staying at home, but if people can't get jobs if it's not a question of willingness, but it's a question of ability. then. There was a good argument for continuing support. What about the spending part of it? The House passed the three trillion dollar additional stimulus bill in May. This hasn't been taken up. In the Senate, the Republican proposals expected to be more like one trillion and here's Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer speaking on Morning Edition today. He was asked about all this federal spending. If we limit our spending right now, we will be. Be In greater debt later because the economy will get worse, the recession will get deeper and could turn into a depression. What do you think about that? Should we even be talking about all of the money? That's being put on the country's credit card, so yes, we should be talking about it and talking about it in the following way Jeremy. We should ask the question. A, we doing things that promote economic growth, because ultimately whether it's a country or whether as an individual. Your debt load is a function, not only what you own, but also what you earn. So if we adding debt and not growing. then. We have a big debt problem however. Adding debt in order to grow fasting future. Is the approach, then we doing the right thing and that goes back, Jamie that the four buckets that Congress should focus on over time, and I say over time because it will not take up all four right now. One is talk about pure relief, helping Americans during a period of pain and suffering. Does the second one that they should also focus on right now, which is making sure that we can live with covert? In a healthy and economically productive fashion, because that's what we can do for while until we get a vaccine that's about funding for testing for health care. And then the third bucket is to make sure that we address downward pressure on productivity growth over the long term, and the final bucket is addressing long-term household economic insecurity I suspect that the most we can get is congressional action on the first two, and that has to be done in a way to promote growth, and it can be done. What about money for state and local governments which are really struggling right now? Should the federal government be giving them more money so that they can stay afloat at the moment? Yes, because once again they have lost revenue in a big way. Not Because of anything done wrong, but because of the situation, and it's not just that when you go into this mindset of how do we live with covert nineteen? In a healthy manner, you look at activities that support productive engagement of individuals and businesses in the economy to keep things going because we want to keep things going as we make progress on the health, issues and support for kqed and local authorities is a key element in this regard. When asked about a couple of other things, new home sales went up thirteen point, eight percent last month and sales of previously owned homes jumped a record twenty point seven percent in June. What is going on with the housing market right now, and is it likely to last? So whether it's the housing market whether it will retail sales. All the backward-looking economic indicators who looks like a V.. Things coming back very sharply why? Because we started off up. The end of May and in June and there was optimism, and there's a lot of repressed desire to do things including. Housing and housing was also benefiting enormously from very low mortgage rates. However if you look at weekly jobless claim, if you look at retail traffic if you look at mobility, if you look at Western bookings, all those have flattened out so I worry that wanted and continuing v. we may look at square root where things come back and then level off and I think that as we go forward. We're GONNA see different economic series are going to start being less dynamic unfortunately than they've been in June until. We sort out this health issue. One of the things that stayed with me from our last conversation is I asked you if you were concerned about emerging markets like Brazil and Turkey and south. Africa and what cove nineteen will mean for their economies. You said you weren't concerned. You were terrified. Do you still feel that way or what terrifies you now? Oh absolutely terrified. And if you look at the numbers of Brazil and India, you see an outbreak that is out of control and healthcare facilities there on not what you'd like them to be facing such a health emergency. When we last spoke what I mentioned at the time, was that what developing countries? Experiencing was the indirect effects of this virus. The outbreak had happened in China around China in Europe and the US and few a developing country in Latin America. What you've felt is lower exports lower tourism lower workers admit and lower fonder investment now. These countries are dealing not just with the indirect effects, but they're dealing with the direct effects. And this lives versus livelihood equation is much trickier in developing countries. I remember an African friend of mine telling me you know we don't have the ability to throw money at this problem like you do. So if we have an outbreak. The choice we may end up facing is do we die from infection or do we die from hunger and that that? Way of putting. It is really a way to show why one should be terrified. The last thing we need right now is an outbreak in countries that don't have the health facilities to deal with. just based on what you're seeing right now. Do you think that in January of this coming year? We are going to still be talking about. Can Schools reopened? Can people go back to work or will we be passed that at that point? So I'm not a health expert but I. Read The news today that I'm sure you have. The Google has gone to its employees and said you can expect to work from home until the middle of next year. I think we all live with. It's uncertainty. The good news though is every day is a win in the sense that we learn more about this virus, and the basic problem is our own behaviour. I live in. California Hawaii can tell you that in southern California people are not wearing mosques enough. It's not because. Mosque song available is because they have a different assessment of the individual risk from the risk facing society, and until we align these risk assessments. We're going to have this big uncertainty about whether. Our school's going to reopen or not. So, it's really it's up to individuals to just realized we can actually solve that issue with. He's minimize the disruptions. Mohamed El area and the chief economic adviser at all EONS and president-elect of Queen's College Cambridge always great to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining us I. Really appreciate that. Thank you Jamie. The future looks bright for a new solar probe that recently began orbiting the sun. The first images taken by the orbiter stunned. At the European Space Agency and NASA, they showed miniature solar flares all over the sun's surface and unexpected early discovery in the mission that will take the spacecraft inside the orbit of Mercury Theresa Nevez Chin Chia is with us now on skype. She's NASA deputy project scientist for the mission today said the orbiter completed its first close pass the sun in June and recently sent its first images back to Earth. Tell us what they show. So these images reveal a movie two-thirds more loops, APP, Tina Brian is sports and darks repealed for the first time. These images has been cold campfires. Camp fires is a funny word because we don't really know what they are, we leave the like Nano flers. So, sometimes scientists, they think they are the little nephews of their solar flares. It is possible that this none of. These tiny it features can be the main responsible of the heating in the outer atmosphere of sand surface. It has been a mystery that the temperature in this region increase almost three hundred times determined were below as you would expect as you go farther from the SAM, the temperature decrease right, but in this union crease, and we don't know why. An has been I mr for years. Will learning more about the sun also tell us more about the earth. Right, so we leave in the extended atmosphere of one. Is that our son? This is John, Pablo of magnetized plasma ride, and we have been protected from these hearts environment with our magnetosphere, but as we are more technologically candy dependent, and we aim also to explore this space. We are more and more exposed to the somebody ability so by knowing the sun we will be able in way to predict the sun, and therefore to protect our societies, and meanwhile just tell us how you protect the orbiter itself from the temperatures it is getting by flying so close to the sun. So right so the astounds that we are GonNa get, which is our quarter of San Earth, these towns will receive thirteen times the magnetic flash that any spacecraft receiving at one you other these air. We have what we call the Heat Shield. Which is the Italian? We fiber, a carbon one each Easter meant are also protected by these technologically advanced material as a NASA scientists. How exciting for you! When you get to see these photos for the first time I mean this is amazing and we have been working for many years. To make this happen is a very challenging mission and society in an. We are actually having a lot of fun doing what we have been. Always wanted to go the science learning about our star. That is today sudden. You have Tim Chia who is NASA deputy project scientist for the solar orbiter today, said thank you. Thank you very much for having me. The moment we're in pandemic. Racial reckoning is going. We are realizing to lust of very long time, so Zedi Smith seems to be saying her new essay collection. Let's not wait to jot down some thoughts. Thank goodness because the some of her essays in the new collection intimations captures this time like a watercolor in the first scene. She's stopped. Fingers curled around the iron bars of a New York City Garden. Garden, fence her face, poking through to look at a tulip in the garden, enclosed inside. It was a few days before the global humbling began. She writes when we would all be looking through barred-windows yearning for tulips to observe not the thing encaged. We are the new. York Times called intimations ultra timely with a spirit both searching and brilliant ends Eighty Smith joins us by skype from London. Now Welcome. You you know, and as you point out on the forward. It's beautiful, slim, elegant book you point out, there will be many books written about the year two, thousand, twenty, historical, analytical, political, as well as comprehensive. This is not any of those what is this? Good question I I think. Was My way of doing something. Almost instantly, I was aware of my. uselessness, I guess novelist always feel to some degree useless, but I think it's compounded particularly in Revolutionary Times by having family. Having small children construct the families by nature, the most most bourgeois institution in the world right? You can't get out on the march. Cyber stuck with anything. I can do which is right. And I suddenly thought it as a way of participating of raising money of being active, because the proceeds from the book will go to the equal justice initiative and the COVID Nineteen Emergency Relief Fund for New York where you were for the worst part of the pandemic, and we know how horrible it was. In New York City and described how everyone was feeling as being suddenly confronted with the problem of all artists time and what to do with it. I suppose I thought like a lot of writers that I would be good in this situation. They assume that you know if they were stuck in a situation alone unable to go out, they would somehow function, and the opposite was true I found it just as impossible as everybody else I was just as. Stabilized by a complete revolution in time and space, and I guess for the first time in my life I realized what I use writing for to control. What's going on around me? It's not something I'm particularly proud of it as a personality trait, but I thought as that is the way I. Respond may be the most useful thing I can do is make the situation clear to myself. Questions than I. Know came to everyone. What is it to? Suffer, what is it to know that other people suffer more new? What is it to know? You're in a transformative moment in history I wanted to. Make those things cleared for myself and I've been reading. Marcus Aurelius and what struck me about that book? Meditations Thousands of years in the distance, it was actively helpful to me. was about structures of thought how to think and I could use it to apply to lots of different contemporary situations. I loved this and not. I'm going to be far less eloquent than than you are. Although you do have this one sentence here, you say you picked up Marcus Aurelius for the first time to read meditations with the same attitude. You bring to the instructions for a flat pack table. It's likely. How do I own fold this thing but I loved this notion of you always hope that if you're going to be. Historical moment you're going to be elevated and you're gonNA. Feel what you're supposed to do. In that moment, and everything's going to be different and have this kind of fairy dust sprinkled over it, and instead were you know knocking around in our apartments and houses, not quite sure what to do right and I was just in really of everybody else. I was at home with children watching people in the streets watching people's volunteer activism at every level I know it's become common for everyone to describe themselves. The neck of his I have too much respect for the woods to pretend that I am one. I'm not one I'm a writer. May Only! Role is I saw it still the very large one with how can I have crate? Structures of thought will help the kind of people who act. That will help them do what they have to do. And you mentioned to? You had an in one of the essays you go into a deep rumination over what is suffering. You get thrown into well. Is it suffering because I'm stuck in my house? I have to wear a mask I. mean you read a new store? You write concerning a young woman of seventeen, only seventeen who had killed herself three weeks in lockdown because she couldn't go out and see her friends. She was not a nurse with inadequate. p. p. e. in a long commute arriving at a word of terrified people bracing for a long day of death, but her suffering like all suffering was an absolute in her own mind. She could not overcome it, so she died. You know the nature of suffering am I really suffering, if people can't breathe on ventilators or with someone's Neon, their neck. They can be different and equality. At the same time you can be having a different experience from someone else and yet the extremity of the you can feel equally extreme, but there's a to hard thought to contain simultaneously and I guess I noticed especially with speed of communication online that it's hard to express those two things simultaneously. I think my writing as a full off. Resistance against exactly that speed resistance against one hundred forty characters resistance against the idea that mine thought should be given to me day by massive capitalist conglomerates of a social media companies. Just I wanted to try and give readers the thing I i. Try and fight for myself, which is space to think your own thoughts whatever they might be. Your postscript content as a virus, you compare the pandemic to the virus that infects so many white Americans, although some may be symptomatic, filled with hate and racism, others may be a symptomatic and still shedding virus. If you will I mean those are my words far more eloquent, I mean just this notion of deep seated thoughts about while I'm a liberal and I'm this or that, but I'm not sure how many blacks I won't living in my neighborhood. I mean that would be more of an asymmetric. Carrier that this notion of racism being a virus to I guess the difference I feel from a load of American on this topic is I'm not actually interested. In personal morality I'm interested in structures that are strong enough to keep us from behaving the way we are. We tend to behave. And I was very struck when I go to England, I went to my little brothers, but if they keep, and I was standing in this very slow garden, with about forty people, standing separately two meters from each other drying, and they were of many different races, religions clauses. I saw that my family was struck by this and what I noted about is. It's not that England is such a multicultural, happy, happy post-racial societies, none of those things, but that garden represented structures that have been put in place that allow people to live near each other to go to school together to expect the same healthcare. UH, at the same point for free that allowed full relations of equity, not perfect. There's no such thing as totally equity in England in Europe or in America, but that was a deep foundation of that book. You know in that book. You felt that way, but that's the truth. That's why. It's not an accident. Structures allow them to live in such a way that party that was far more likely than I'd ever experienced in new for example. He you right I used to think that there would one day be a vaccine against this. Virus of racism that if enough black people name the virus explained, it demonstrated how it operates. You know look at that statue. I'm thinking as as i. read this video it's affects. Look what's happening. George Floyd I think protested peacefully revealed how widespread it really is. How the symptoms arise, how so many Americans keep giving it to each other irresponsibly and shamefully generation after generation, causing intolerable and unending damage, both to individual bodies and the body politic. I thought if that knowledge became as widespread as could possibly be managed or magic that we might finally reach some kind of her. I don't think that anymore. So. You think it's the structures. It can't be the people. Yes I mean whatever faith had imposed. The round key is long gone. So for me, symbols even statues I. Doubt the strong feeling around these symbols, but for me they are nothing next to equitable structures economic social. That's Eighty Smith her new collection of essays about the moment or in is intimations. Sadie, thank you so much, thank you. So people left to own, devices can't erase racism. Maybe it's the same with the chroniclers. Businesses. Churches and schools are all advertising. They're deep cleaning regimens as evidence. They're protecting people from covid. Nineteen starbuck says it sanitizing high surface areas frequently, retailers like target are cleaning baskets between uses and Jim's like planet, fitness, or boasting about their cleaning routines in ads. Planet fitness. We're committed to keeping the judgment free zone cleaner than ever. There's no surface. We won't sanitize no machine. We won't scrub because when it comes to keeping our clubs safe and spotless our team. Arlene not mean cleaning machines. Our next guest says that kind of cleaning is more show than substance Derek, Thompson writer and editor at the Atlantic joins us now. Hi, Derek Hey Jeremy. Well let's start with the science. Everybody's talking about how clean surfaces are but what do we know about? How the virus actually spreads on surfaces. The CDC has come out and said that touching a surface quote isn't thought to be the main way the virus spreads. It is thought to spread via airborne via large droplets or smaller droplets that linger in the air, unventilated indoor spaces, other scientists I spoke to came to an even more forceful conclusion. Emanuel, Goldman is a biology professor at Rutgers, New Jersey. Medical, school and And he told me that surface transmission of COVID. Nineteen is just not justified at all by the science, so we are still learning more about this disease, our knowledge about it is incomplete and I. Definitely don't want to suggest that it's impossible to contract this disease from services, but it seems far far more likely that we catch it from other people through airborne transmission. cleanings inactive hygiene theater, and compared it to some of the stuff that was done with airport security after nine eleven right, so we're all familiar with security theater. After nine eleven, the TSA took it upon themselves to pat down. Grandmothers and children for possible explosives. And lots of people including people the Atlantic like my colleague. Jim Fallow called the security theater. Well, I think that America's new found obsession with deep cleaning is a kind of hygiene theater. We are obsessed with ads like that planet fitness add about. Cleaning every single possible surface to an inch of its life in order to stop a disease that's actually not traveling mostly from surfaces in the first place. It's traveling through the air. So you have planet fitness doing what? They said they were doing that. AD. You have New York City subway, shutting down every night for a few hours for the first time, and it's one hundred sixteen year history in fact to blast the seats. Seats and the walls and the polls, all this antiseptic weaponry national restaurants like applebee's are creating sort of sanitation czars to oversee the constant scrubbing of window ledges. All of this is happening in a world where scientists are converging on the consensus that it's not spreading from surface to hand to face. It's spreading through the air. We have misallocated our attention and should be focused on unventilated indoor space is not on soap obsessions. I think about this when I go to the supermarket and still not allowed to use a reusable bag because you have to have a new plastic bag or new paper bag because they won't allow that, I? Don't know exactly how that keeps the virus away, but. Is there a problem with this excess cleaner. Shall we say you know what if it helps? People think that they're being safer than what's the problem with? Let us do everything possible to stop this virus. If someone listening likes washing their hands, I say, keep doing it. Keep washing your hands. If you want to scrub down your kitchen counter. That's fine. Keep doing it. The problem isn't so much individuals. It's when companies used their deep cleaning regimens as an excuse to allow people to come into spaces. They shouldn't be in the first place so for example if you. You have gyms restaurants with large unventilated indoor spaces that are essentially telling patrons. Come on in. We're scrubbing down the ellipticals and the tables. You're using just warped logic. You're inviting people to still come into your space and share these unventilated indoor spaces where they can get sick in the piece. I compare it to like an oceanside town that stalked by a frenzy. Frenzy of Ravenous Sharks and urge people to come back to the beach. They say you know we've reinforced the boardwalk with concrete like what now people can sturdily walk into the ocean and be separated from their limbs. You've totally misunderstood the nature of an airborne threat, so I'm definitely not calling and the scientists I spoke to are not calling for people to stop. Stop washing their hands. Keep doing that. If you're in public recently, don't immediately. Stick your fingers into your mouth. You know, take precautions, but still understand the three most important ways to stop this epidemic masks, distancing and moving activities outdoors. That's really it that is one scientist said we can beat this thing and deep clean, so often are just an expensive distraction. Derek Thompson senior editor at the Atlantic Derek. Thanks as always thank you. Robin, there's a market that I go to where they make you put not just a mask. Of course we all wear masks. When we go into a public face, they make you put plastic gloves on your hands to touch the fruits and vegetables. I'm like wait a minute. I'm going to wash these. And so is everybody else. Why would you anyway just young person who's gainfully employed wiping everything all the time so I'm thrilled? So at least it's. It's causing jobs to to go up. Here now is a production of NPR and Wvu are associated with the BBC World Service I'm Jeremy Hobson rather young is here.
Jill Abramson on BuzzFeed layoffs, "Merchants of Truth" and the local news crisis
"Today's show is brought to you by Microsoft's, Azure, startups governments and ninety percent of fortune. Five hundred companies are built on the Microsoft cloud with Microsoft, Azure. Teams can stay productive with tools. They already know how to use and they can develop and deploy anywhere in the world with a consistent hybrid environment. What will you achieve when you come to the cloud? Get started with a free account and twelve months of popular services at Azure dot com slash trial. That's as E U R, E dot com slash trial. This is Recode media with Peter Kafka. That is me. I'm part of the vox media podcast network here in New York City talking with Jill Abramson, former executive editor than York Times. Now, she's got a great new book called merchants of truth business news and the fight for facts. Welcome Jill, thank you. This is a great book. If you listen to this podcast, you're doing right now, you will like this book because this is about technology media their collision what that means for journalism, you spend the book Folkestone four companies in particular, New York Times, she used to run Washington Post vice and BuzzFeed, why did you pick those four companies focus on I picked those four because they were very much ascend at the point I began researching the buck and hanging out four five years ago. Yeah. This is right at the end of. Twenty four two and beginning of fifteen when you have time on your hands. I didn't act. Yeah. But no as I after I I was. We'll move from my job at the times in may of twenty four teen. And I immediately signed up to do a few things including teaching journalism classes at Harvard, which is my Almodovar. And so, but it is really a question of whether I had time on my hands. But at the point I was gone from the times, I was left with this like just insatiable curiosity about the new digital news players. And you know, Arthur, Greg souls burger had just written the innovation report. And your my sense was that it dripped with a fair amount of envy for both BuzzFeed and vice especially because of they were ahead of the times in an area called audience. This was an internal memo created by AG Salzburg who now is the publisher of the times explaining how the time she'd do better in the new digital landscape in hunt to not get huff poed by huff PO at cetera. That's a great way to phrase that. Yeah. In the book, you describe that memo as an epic fail for you. Personally. I felt that it was why why was it because as managing editor which I was at the times for eight years. My biggest project was uniting the times is news room. So that there wasn't something. We called the web news. And then the newsroom newsroom, which was a standard sort of cleavage for a long time. But you know, it created duplication, and my sense was that we were rapidly becoming a digital first news organization and combining the the two newsrooms was. Difficult. You know, there was still a lot of kind of cultural opposition or even snobbery that some of the definitely I'm revenue newsroom. People had and you know, I was gargantuan. In piece of were that I felt like was that recognized at all. So you felt like you've done all this work to bring the times into the modern. I was you know, that was my signature. I was going to be the editor that brought the New York you run the person who ran the times we've got digital get digital. Actually, we're way behind kind of the nature of digital. Right. Like, you keep up your on top of it. And then there's always something nip I wanna talk to you about all the publications that you you tell you about why these hosts I mean the times because from the inside I had the best ringside seat ever to see how dislocating and exciting going digital was. And during my tenure or the times was in the deepest financial trouble at had been in in a K and the adjustment was hard. And I thought. You know, the str-, and I thought that the post was doing well at that point which was the beginning of twenty fifteen you know, Beza said taken shorter. I thought their apps were really great to us and their website was very category user experience. So I was interested in in them because of the change over an ownership for one like like the times that was one of the great traditional news companies owned by a great newspaper family, the grams, and that had stopped, and I just thought it would be really interesting to take to so-called old media and new media, and I was copying David Halberstam's structure for book. He wrote in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine or was publishing seventy nine called the powers that be which you know was book. Chronicled the news media at the height of power and embed yourself row. You already embedded in time. So he didn't need to embed yourself. Right. She got a lot of access from particularly BuzzFeed looks like you spend a lot right or maybe a little less so advice in the post. But that would be true. Although vice you know, let me interview anybody I request at that time they were pretty open. They were what's a better than open? They were exuberant. They were exuberant. Yes. They had just started vice land the cable channel, and I was always scratching my head about that as 'cause in my book, I'm really go deep on the business models that all of these places had and I didn't really see where you know, running programming on a cable channel that had been history to was going to. Really push vice into news. Him about it. And they basically said we're getting paid. Brian, then some more bluster, and I think actually not only had has not worked up at that has been devastating because you can sort of spin a story talking about digital stuff for quite some time. But if you and someone like, Jeff Bugesera Murdoch might buy into it. But if you see a zero point zero for vice land, and you know, what that means. Nielsen terms, it's very hard to make that case, exactly. Let me ask you about BuzzFeed in particular because there's news as recording this BuzzFeed announced layoffs. There's a thousand total layoffs across the media landscape this week we go by the time. You're getting it today in particular. We had the first real cuts in BuzzFeed news. Buzzfeed news had been spared. Downside prior national security. So you're deepen BuzzFeed, your washing them very closely for several years. Did you see these cuts coming? The glimmer of them certainly towards the end of my report, and because at that point Jona parody the found or had moved to LA, and you know, BuzzFeed was operating what was to my eyes because I spent a week there, a mini Paramount Pictures, but for you know, video and so they were making the abors of whereas. Exactly. And these, you know, young stars some of whom had been just web producers for BuzzFeed, you know, being recognized on the street by young people. I mean, you gene of try guys is like a rock star to a, you know, a young cohort. So they had were already shifting sort of where their financial emphasis was and making you know, you, and I probably both, hey, all of the industry cliches, but they will making the pivot to video. Yeah. They were going hard and a video the news operations glimmer that like old model that was so successful in the beginning. Maybe was an and then the news was hived off as a separate Brett then that was where to sort of solve the tension between Penn smooth and save Franken, we've talked I think at this point about that. It makes them the news operation was really big. Cost a lot of money won. A lot of words degrade some great journalism didn't make any money lost money lost money for sure. But for a long time joining Brady said I like, I like it. I believe I called him seriously by the week until my galley couldn't be changed anymore. Like are. You sore your commitment to is real. And while outlast the publication of my. But by the way, I'm sure he was in the room today. Say Mike amendment to newsreels. Yeah. I know he would but it has to get smaller than times had layoffs and. And he, you know in this year is facing like what you know for a while. It looked like winter is coming and now winter is clearly here for digital news operation coach chilly in this room. Well, digital news operation. Okay. I know you like BuzzFeed got that was a while ago now, but that big, you know, investment from Comcast and this Bank forever. Yeah. So she ended quickly. I did want to ask you about sort of reporting on a book like this stuff is moving. I guess it's the nature of any book that when you're reporting on news operations in the thesis of your book is these things are all influx in. That's an interesting time. How do you try to? I mean, this a little process he, but how do you sort of try to give yourself as much room as possible to allow for major news at BuzzFeed that you want to squeeze into the book? You you say you were calling Joan until. The less like. A couple of weeks ago months ago. Maybe two months. Yeah. So was is there a temptation to go? Oh, man. I got to add a new chapter on this or that not chapters, but in firm Asia, and and I did how do you balance that with going? I want this to be valuable to someone reading it five years from now or two years from now, I think you make it valuable and immutable by focusing on the core important things that will always be really interesting. And to me that's always history, and the story of people, you know, I I don't want to brag on my book. But I think you know, we're talking about BuzzFeed, and and vice you know, just the characters and the foundation stories of those two companies and then their impact on the news. They've both had a lot of impact. Packed. So I know a lot of their history. I report on this stuff. I know these guys talked to them they've been on the podcasts at cetera. There was still great stuff through that. I hadn't seen before. It's fascinating people. They're colorful characters and there's important stuff in the book, and there's juicy stuff in the buck a lot of it's gone. I was not really that worried. I would say in some ways my biggest worry in terms of staying current with very important material was Facebook. And I was reading the Facebook chapter again last night, and you've got stuff there that goes up through the summer of through the past Cambridge Analytica. So, but right that all I had to go back, and and and and fell, you know, the story of the power of the algorithm and Facebook becoming what I think is the world's biggest publisher that that wasn't enough that like you had to include. All of the already was onto the Russian fake news sites. But these breaches of people users confidentiality, and, you know, hiring a bare knuckles upo firm to, you know, go up against Facebook. Critics. I mean that all is really important. It was going to ask you to armchair times editor later in the bell. Ask you now. I think the times has done mostly really great reporting on Facebook. They've obviously turned the lens on them this year Facebook, it's been reported. And I've talked to them sort of confused about why this is happening to them. And and and you you you'd get that sense of confusion from them and defensiveness, I get I wouldn't say confusion. I think that there are executives and people who work there who think the times is out to get not. That's what I heard. Heard. So that's defensiveness. Do you think they're right at the time together, I'm giving a big fat softball here? But I wanna hear you answer. Right. My answer is no because you know, I helped run a lot of big running stories about companies and countries. And you know, what what you do? It's just the old Watergate rule when you got a great stories stand at and what you're going. And if you keep discovering fascinating and important information for you know, your readers and audience to know, you've got to publish. So, you know, there have been a lot of stories and more stories about Facebook, certainly in their tech coverage than anyone, you know, deep deep investigations. But that's how a big story should go. You think if you were running times, you would have got to Facebook sooner? Or was it something that until the election didn't really crystallize for you yourself as like, oh, this is a giant story. Now, it I mean it had already crystallized for me. That was a giant story when I was still at the time, and I can remember I wish I remembered the year, but having a hiring conversation with Jenna worth and she starts times. Reporter a just a great great podcast are great purse. But she really, you know, lit a fire under may. And you know, we grew the technology group it's much bigger nad. But it's funny, you know, at the times, and this may be too in the weeds, but technology was covered as just an Eddie and side light of business. And what technology is covering life. You sound like you work at Recode. And you know, it just so naturally their coverage of tech grew. And I think at some point they're not gonna even call the reporters who focus on at the tech grew. But no, there was sort of a technology was a subset of business. It was almost a regional story. I mean, if you go way back, I can remember, you know, covering reading stories in the times when they would say, we'll until has a new chip, and it's this much faster than the old ship, and that would be a story. Right. And, you know, well, you know, Facebook becoming a big deal, you know, the the start of that was when they launched the news feed, and that happened to be about the same time as the iphone went on sale and for my books narrative spine, that's really where it begins because. It was also close to the financial crisis, which compounded all of the, you know, endemic financial problems that newspapers were dealing with companies rickety now or my right now you've got a phone in your hand that can replace a lot plans. Buzzfeed was built on Facebook's back and vice in my book. I write a lot about how vice was built on YouTube is back. So it's sort of 2017 back to two thousand and seven a new we're gonna cover a lot of ground. I'm look we are we'll take a quick break perhaps from responser perhaps not from sponsor. It's going to break we rip back. Today's show is brought to you by fund rise the future of real estate investing. And I used to write about commercial real estate with my very first job fund rises revolutionary model. Transforms the industry, thanks to software. The cuts out costly middleman and old market inefficiencies fund rise delivers the. 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We were talking off air before we got started about the book tour, and how it started earlier than you thought it would in response basically to to criticism the book had gotten before it even showed up on anyone's shelves. I think there's two spines of criticism to use your metaphor one is mostly on Twitter saying you've got some facts wrong. I'll let you little gate that with your with your Twitter people, and the other is Jill Abramson doesn't like the internet. She doesn't like digital media. She's nearing at this stuff. And that's informed. Some of the original Twitter criticism. I think to there's a new Republic interview of interview story, we says some of the sections where you're talking about BuzzFeed and vice read like Abramson is speaking from a place of ill informed bitterness over prince loss of supremacy jewelry bidder now. And you know, I am an acolyte of clay Shirke and in his fantastic article about newspapers, dying his conclusion was you just have to stop morning and focus on there as a human need for great, storytelling and reliable information. And wherever it's distributed. It's great and just stop at. And I you know, I've believed that since probably before he wrote that article which was a long long time ago. So you're not just talking about whether the times is delivered to your doorstep or to an app you're talking about whether it comes from some person on the internet. You never heard of versus enough start versus the times if they're good. In fact, checked and verified your. Happy with totally obviously. And you've read the book, I really don't think it has that. I was I I will say I got the book, and I read to the stuff the initial complaint was about someone who worked advice news who's who's upset with the way you portrayed her. And when I read the Twitter stuff at that. Oh, this is Jill Abramson sneering at the people advice, you read the chapter, and you're not you're kind of admiring and how cool they are. You definitely sell admiring of their durable. Yes. And and you have you have real criticisms of Shane Smith in in in some of the misogyny there, but you taking vice seriously. That's why you're writing about it. And then BuzzFeed in particular, I think I mean, you've real admirations for a lot of journalism. They're doing for Ben Smith, you can just sort of comes off the page, and I was a little I just figured, oh, there's going to be dichotomy where you've got the old guys who is on the side of. And here's the young sort of Callo upstarts, and how's it going to work out? But you take them very seriously land to me what I loved about the narrative. Spine of this story is that, you know, at first buzz feed in vice are really, you know, doing content that event real news Zun, it's doing content with a capital seat. Not news. Yeah. And Joan parody described his audience as the bored at work network, which I love and at the point. I started reporting both Feis and BuzzFeed had jumped into news. And I thought by says weekly show on HBO was really sort of addictive fen end informative of and you know. Buzzfeed's just BuzzFeed site. I looked at every every morning, and they always had kind of an interesting hard news story that I hadn't seen anywhere else. And I recommended in terms of sneering, I recommended, you know, people to both companies who were hired while I was working on the book because I thought they were glass in it. And it looked like fun and interesting to be in their newsrooms. I think it'd be easy to discount both those organizations for a while. Because when even when vice Digital's him a lot of stunt journalism sending Dennis Rodman to North Korea. And I for a long time thought that what BuzzFeed was doing was the huffpost playbook, which is you get a lot of all you m-. You don't publish a lot of stuff. That's that's great. And then because you wanna be taken more. Seriously, you hire a handful of people from the times or places like that. But you don't really intend to create a news organization. You. To sort of show them to advertisers and deserted get a little credibility. But clearly, especially in buzzfeed's case, they spent a lot of money building, a very big staff there and Smith the editor handpicked peop-, very experienced people like mirror mail. Dr Who does internet that editor for international news is like from Syria, and they stuck around. He didn't just show. Like look at Rosie gray. She had left to go to the Atlantic. And now she's coming back. One theme. You talk about a lot in the book. Whether you're talking about the the new companies or the post and the times is this conflict or tension between the edit side and the business side this is inherent. I think in any media company journalism company, everyone I've worked at it was an issue for you. When you work there at the times. And if I'm reading you, right? You think the business? Edit divider has gotten too small at the time. If you think that problem has gotten worse over time since I. You know, it's it is hard for me to say. I mean, I am first of all like so happy that the times is in such better financial health than it was when I was there, and that would be the argument, right? Like every time something when the business size of encroaching on a traditional. It's like this is to help save Keller's frit Bill Keller was my predecessor as executive editor. And a fantastic boss. A great journalist, but he always say it comes down to keeping the Baghdad bureau ope, and you know, it's hard to say absolutely, no when you get down to that. But you know, the thing that worried me the most was that the journalists in the news room were seen by the CEO as being responsible. For the development and creation of new products, which are revenue produced saying, and you know, none of the journalists at the times were ever involved in you know, revenue producing things before. And you know, I was disturbed the I guess the first class was when and this was even before Mark Thompson arrive, but Arthur Sulzberger, jR, the publisher and his cousin Michael golden who has a senior executive decided that the head of video was gonna be a dual repeal honor to the business side, and to me, and before this new blended position was created the head of video was very distinguished document. Literary news make our who. I thought was doing great were. But like the business side was really down on her and being very forceful about. We need we need to make a big change. And you know, that that was new them. You know, the I was spending three quarters of my time as -secutive edit or in business need, and and definitely senior executives on the business side. We're weighing in on personnel and other things that just. Had not happened during Bill Keller's period, and one of his predecessors who I'm still close to his Joe leli veiled, and they just drilled into me that the independence of the news room was the most critical fans, so I was very sensitive and on guard about this. And I write in the book, you know, maybe too much because it's not like there have been you know, any even close to scandals there. Aggressive Facebook reporting, and they're also through their brand studio creating news like articles about Facebook considering clear, which which is which very clear as is the book about why that is it's because you know, Facebook and other social platforms completely disaggregated the news. So you know, you weren't going to the the time they're creating ads for. All right and clear. Look, clearly, they're they're the revenues not being affected by the aggressive reporting. The aggressive reporting isn't being affected, by fact that they sell at. Yeah. And I mean that duality is existed. You know, since I ate off hawks is Tom do you think it's reasonable to Astor's leaving aside like the top executives, but do you on the ground reporters to be thinking about how they're the value of their work and how it's received and whether their stuff is well read or for moving now towards a subscription model, whether they should be thinking about whether people want to pay for their the work they're doing, and if not should they be creating something else, or do you think that's someone else's job? And they should be going out and focus solely on creating news, solely creating news involves the distribution of your store is in the world, we live. That's a new idea though, it sure is. But it's part of what is going to say. When you why Slee read we? Directed me was the disaggregation of news where stories appear in people's feeds from many different sources, you know, people don't necessarily notice like that. It's the time story or CNN story. And so the journal asks start the times has is had star journalists, but they were always mainly of the New York Times and New York Times was an ice in the book. I have an anecdote where I tell Nate silver's lawyer that he said to me I represent the prettiest girl at the party, and I looked at him. And I said in a very sarcastic voice Ono's are the New York Times is always the prettiest Susan's date was deciding whether or not he's going to say, but my point is just, you know, journalists have become. Individual brands that pendulum swings back and forth. But in your book, you say, the the clear signal within the times in two thousand eighteen twenty nineteen is if you want to succeed if you wanna have job security, you do need to be a star reporter of some sort and you need to make sort of cliquey popular stuff or articles about Donald Trump. Nice segue. I wanted to ask you what Trump spent a bunch of time talking about it. Obviously the times has done. Great Trump coverage. You are also critical of an overly negative tone in the times in particular. I mean, I guess you said too much their stuff is is negative. Here's a quote from you, given it's mostly liberal audience. There was an implicit financial reward for the times running lots of Trump stories almost all of them negative. And now that I'm reading it for the third time. I finally figured out what you meant you meant the stories about Trump are negative. Not reasons are negative. Oh, yeah. But you then go on to say, look, it bumped traffic and help sell subscriptions bud undermines trust in the paper. And that's that's where I'm stuck. Why you don't think it does? Well, if the stories are negatives in the papers trust in the news media broadly. All right, no, tone of coverage at headlines had become markedly harsher and more adversary in part to appeal to a growing anti-trump readership. The pushback. Fries. But the but the pushback, we look we're reporting the facts, this is in I'm going to edit. Tori lies but free to do. It's my podcast against a real crisis. Here. This is a real problem, and we should tell the truth and the truth in almost all cases. We'll be negative if he respond to that. Because they support us great. If they responded that because they hate Trump great because they'll go away over Peter. Not sure that the eggs are from the book that you read is criticism. I'm just it's true. Trump has been a gold mine for television ratings and for newspapers. So that's all on. That is true. I wanted to talk about this pew study and people have a general distrust for the media and in the suggestion, I get from reading the book is that if we tone that back a bit that would help the media regain trust. And it seems like we're well beyond then. Now, I I'm not talking about Tony down. But I am talking about maybe better module. Relation like often. I'll open let's say the Washington Post's app and one of their apps, the posts most actually interchanges news story is an opinion as they aggregate and seriously on not few days. I I have to scrawl pass like eight or nine thin set aren't Trump Trump, Trump Trump and the other day, again, I those are Trump stories that are negative there. Feeding on negative stories. Less. Find interesting is that they all get clicked on. So there is an incentive. I just think I'm not that is an criticism. It just is sort of. It's Michael Kinsley is rule that the biggest crime is to say what is true a gaffe? He does define a gal right deaf. Ashes fact checked you live on the podcasts. Yeah. Well, it was a long time ago. That's I think that's you have a younger memory. I kinda want to quit while I'm ahead. But instead, we're going get quick break. Looking at Golda. We'll be right back. Displaced is the podcast. Listen, if you want to bet on the stand the largest global displacement crosses since I'm ready gourmet it I'm grand cordon in this season. We're going to focus on one of the most important issue shaping the displacement crisis. That's how the nature of wars changing. We will look at how technologies like drones cyberwarfare. And social media are changing the ways that conflict start and how they play out Schwab to season to displace now on apple podcasts or wherever you get. You podcasts. I'm back with Jill Abramson. We could talk for a long time by your book. Go read it. It's great. What surprised you about the Washington Post when you spent time writing about that company that thing that surprised me immediately? When I started going there to interview journalists was that it seems so happy because you expect them to be complaining about Basil's and the new not necessarily, but it was such a contrast to you. I spent twenty two years of my career in Washington in the Washington bureau of the Wall Street Journal, and then I was Washington bureau chief of the times and during all of that time, I mean, they were so reducing their staff, and it was just depression city over there. And. Yeah, people whose criticism. Awesome. I respect a lot like Jim fallow. We're saying in what they wrote that the quality of the newspaper was suffering. And so was you know, misery alley and then you know, what I found on day one was Happy Valley. And and that's just you know, it was surprising. It's not like I expected them to be sour grapes about Jeff Bezos spot just to have such a quick turn. Or I figured their honeymoon period where you've got money and someone says they want to invest and they've been losing assets and losing people for a long time. And then after a while the billionaire in this case, the tech billionaire would go what am I doing here with this company? And actually, I don't want coverage of this all or the other version B, I'm a technologist I'm gonna fix the company with my own special software or management mandate. And. Fits of that. But you haven't certain haven't heard complaining about it. Do you do you only criticism that is comments only journalism circles as that they don't cover Amazon as aggressively as there, what do they say to that? When you bring that up day say we have covered Amazon and point to the links to stories which are good, but pretty infrequent. I think as an undercover company generally the times at one big takeout on the work culture there decanters greater, and and I think it is a hard company to report on geographically as far away. I think those certainly going to get more scrutiny over time. Yeah. I mean when I have regrets about the people who said, no to interviews for my buck is side tried very hard to get to. And in the end he said now. He's after months and months and months of I know he was considering he's difficult to get to. I don't blame him. I'm sure the upside of I mean, he's he's public a bit on his own terms. I thought with the vile way that Trump has attack what he causing his tweets that Amazon Washington Post and falsely sang that they don't pay their fair share of tack. If as I thought, and the, you know, the enemies of the people, and the fact that the post has the new slogan democracy die than darkness. I thought I thought he might lean in in sim question for the times, right? Which is kind of a trick question. Because you're at the times a lot of what you're reporting on in. There is your personal story in some cases was their stuff that you went back and said all right as a reporter, I'm now an outsider. I'm actually going to go ahead and call people, and I'm assuming you did that did. What what surprised you about that experience? Or how did what you were hearing differ from your recollections? I asked for there's one small part of the buck and New York magazine eggs are pted that part. It's the middle New York Times chapter which has some pages where you know, I kind of agonized over this. But where I ride in the first person about some of the trouble, I had is executive editor on my firing. And I actually did do reporting with other reporters, some of whom I didn't know whether they'd been fans of mine are not to kind of get a reality. Check on how I'd been perceived and that was hard and occasionally painful, but not awkward. I mean, anybody I can't think even the I say at the very beginning of the book, which is true that the times deci. Sided not to coop or a I talked to just about everybody I want, and you mentioned where you say then this thing happened in these. Then you've got an aside setting the time said that all right? I go by the rule. No surprise. And I s an investigative report or I felt no one should read a story about them or that mentions them and be totally surprised. So was there anything on both the New York Times and vice saw they knew almost everything and actually saw. Draft of what there was nothing in your reporting said, well, obviously, it happened this way and someone's at no, no chill. You have it all wrong or you didn't realize this was happening stage. And and I I don't want to make it too obvious who it was. But in fact, checking something where I said, not only it was one of these murder merging of someone's job. And that had been news and making business and news. I said that this person was as unhappy as I speak because like we met in my office right after and they were like up this ably upset to me, but in talking to them, you know, more recently what they told me is. They were not really that upset, but they knew how sensitive I was about this merge. And so it was sort of fo- upset now. All right sure at times Kremlinologists you can go back to that chapter. And check it out you end the book talking about local news or one of the things we talk about the problem with local news does not get covered enough. But I think anyone who looks at it and thinks about it seriously goes this is a real problem. And I don't have yet to hear of a good solution. Do you have a decent solution for the the what seemed to be brutal economic realities of running amid ten scale not one that can scale I- propublica, the Texas Tribune men post, and I spent a lot quite a bit of time at men post. I mean, they're wonderful digital news organizations, and there are some in California there one in Chicago. But we need a wealthy person. But. Subsidizing was managing editor of the times. I was behind. I think it cost all of three hundred thousand dollars, but we were inserted and we were having times reporters do local news, and like four places where the local paper had been degraded and tried to do to like two pages inserted of local news to try to plug the hole, but the holiest too big at can't be plugged and the times to save money Kanthal that program, anyway, maybe they saw it as too little and ineffective. I mean, we had your successor dean became onstage in our conference a couple of years ago. I said what's your solution? Basically with look like union shrugged and turn to the rich people in the audience at I hope you guys can help out essentially short of billionaires or sub billionaires buying their own papers. Great nonprofits, it it seems. I mean. Vice in BuzzFeed are gonna go through some sort of per mutations. But they could certainly survive times the post look very healthy journals doing fine. I mean, are you looking at a future we're five ten years from now like, lots of papers, just simply don't exist. Well, if trends continue as they are. And I don't see why they are at. I mean, we lost half of all journalism newspaper jobs half in the past fifteen years. I mean that is incredible and hundreds of local papers have closed, and you know, in the book, you know, one of my my big points because I think the lowered trust in the news media local news sources consistently rated as the most trusted because they're closest to their communities. They're known, and it is a real real crisis. Zlin they're going. Away. We live Peter I'm in year brilliant at covering this. We live in the Europe of big where my worry is like, you know, the the Washington Post says already been acquired by. But one of the reasons the post is in trouble because it was pursuing a local strategy now look at you know, net flicks an app or jumping into news that may be that. We just have behemoth news companies where news is, you know, a relatively small part of the business, and that worries what what do you make of Google and Facebook each saying, we're putting three and a million dollars into news with the local emphasis and to push subscriptions. He just made it great face. I did I'm, you know, skeptical because I don't really think they understand `ournalists them. Would they tell me when I say things like you should just be taxed, you should just have a tax that gets distributed. Okay. You're going to have utility. And they go now or or just make it a straight subsidy. Just go ahead and cut checks all the local papers. And they say, listen if they have failed business models. We we can't you know, what we're we're gonna help them. Learn how to run their businesses correctly. But what they don't understand even vice and buzz feed, and certainly the New York Times and the Washington Post I found in report in my book, they have a sense of mission. And I'm not saying there's no sense of mission of doing important things to better society. You know, but I think they absolutely think by the way, many of those folks that those companies are ideologues. And I think in a good way they just don't think their mission is to save journalism, which may be fair. Well, journalism is fundamental to saving democracy. The first amendment is first for reason. Can we leave on an up note? What's the most encourage? Ging thing you found the most surprising encouraging thing you found in your reporting that young people are now a lot more interested in news. Stay all are. And that's crews Shaw. That's something I worked on at the time. Like inculcating a new generation of subscribers, and I think that's gonna turn out happy. I hope that's true. Jill this is great. I was looking forward to this for some time. So thanks for doing it. Thank you for having me, Peter and thanks for telling me that was brilliant those break, thanks to you guys for listening. You can also tell me, I'm brilliant. You can leave a review saying brilliant on apple podcast or wherever he was in the podcast. You can follow me on Twitter at peacock as you know. Jill do you? Enjoy the Twitter, I lurk or don't tweet Jovan. Thanks to our sponsors. Thanks to cadence. Thirteen in box media who bring those sponsors to you. So you can listen to Recode media for free Joe Robbie edits this show gold. Arthur Eric Johnson produce it. They are awesome. This is. Rica media. I will see you next week. Everyone Scott Galloway here to talk to you about the show. I co host with CARA Swisher hit by the way. I clearly didn't write that. She co host with me. I'm sick of being meek at a Joe, I am not a pip to her Gladys anyways every week. We'll talk free markets privacy. And everything that's come out of the Pandora's box known as big tech. You'll hear us talking about Zuckerberg days os and other dark lords that have turned to the dark side of the forest giving you context that you need to understand our moment in tech, and in time care brings on the ground reporting and all attempt to pull out some of the key things that help you understand the world we live in and give you the full picture for all this and more, please, listen and subscribe on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening.