8 Episode results for "Jesse Buckley"
Wild Rose (Featuring JD Duran)
"<music> all right welcome to piecing together the podcast where we take a look at a new movie and try to figure out what movies inspired it. I'm your host David Rosen something I do on the show. Do I say I'm your host David Rosen. I don't know I don't think I normally do but hey I am your host David Rosen so nice to meet everybody today on the show we are looking at a he really great movie. I it's limited release right now. It's called Wild Rose Stars Jesse Buckley as a up and coming country singer who is from Glasgow and is trying to launch a country music career while also balancing that with actually trying to be a mother to her two young children is a fantastic film with a wonderful central performance by Jesse Buckley. Who is somebody who has been on a lot of people's radars lately as disgrace upcoming actress <hes> she was in beast and she was in the T._v.? Show Chernobyl which actually haven't seen yet <hes> and she's going to be on season four or Fargo so a lot of Jesse Buckley upcoming but <hes> join me for this one is Jaydee durant from inception film podcast which is a great film podcast that I actually got the guest on recently <hes> but we will jump into this conversation and I do WanNa tell you if you haven't seen seen it make sure to go see it while it's still in theaters. It's unlimited release. You may have to hunt for it but it is worth watching go see all right so today on the show and it'd be talking about wild wild rose and with US Jaydee Duran from insufficient film podcast in session is a show that I got to be on a couple months back. We talked about a long shot which we never did get around to doing an episode on but it was a lot of fun getting on their show talking and I'm really glad to have J._d.. Here J._D.. How's it going? Hey thanks for having me glad to be here like you said my first time. It's been a busy week as we are rounding out. The summer are getting close to it. Funny Enough August for us is a really busy month despite the fact that there's not a ton of interesting at least mainstream films that come out in August but sure any circuit did did Wendy circuit is where August I think really searched the ramp up plus. There's a retrospective that we do every August on our show as well some visiting prepping for that and the lion king is coming out this weekend so that offers I own stresses as well so it's been very busy but I am glad to be here particularly for this specific episode. I'm I'm pumped yeah. I know we were talking about wild rose when I was on your show it briefly and is a great movie. I'll just get that out of the way right away. I was looking forward to it for a long time and it actually did not disappoint before we get into talking about. Why don't you tell people a little bit about your podcast? Yes so like you said we are in session. Film be have to primary shows on Monday is our main show or myself and my co-host burning cassidy. We typically review some sort of new release. Yes we tried to aim for some of your more bigger releases more mainstream releases <hes> with a couple of indies thrown an from time to time or in the case of this last week. We did easier writer because there was nothing great right coming out seldom <hes> we mix it up a little bit but we usually have some sort of Maine Review. We have a top three segments. We have some other news. Discussions are other films that we've caught up with <hes>. It's a pretty jampacked show and on Friday we have a show called extra film where <hes> there are two other hosts that kind of handle the four over there and that show is mostly dedicated to <hes> indie films chiefs <hes> in a of the New Year or sometimes we'll throw in some classic films the guys that Casa Blanca Elastic for example so <hes> it's it's a little little mixture of everything we try to cover the gamut mant <hes> when when it comes to film so <hes> that's mostly what we do you can find us at <hes> in session film Dot Com there you can find links to show you can find <hes> features we have written reviews over there and of course you can find <hes> although all of the podcasts and all the links to show and everything there so again that's in session film Dot Com right on so yeah. I guess let's jump into talking about wild rose. I've got a bunch of puzzle pieces here. I'm sure are you do to you got to see this a while back. Though right yeah it was right before it went on vacation which was <hes> in the mortgage toward the end of June so it's been a good month. Since I've Seen uh-huh Yeah I've I've been waiting and waiting at finally opened here in Vegas this past week <hes> and yeah I mean definitely lived up. I mean we've been I. It seems like we've been getting music film. After music film after Music Film and you know you Kinda go into the next one like well you know. I know there's a lot of good buzz for it but you know I hope it. Does something a little different something. You know interesting yeah. It's certainly lived up to it. Though yeah I think so as well I I mean for listeners of our I shall Dunno that I love this or even. If you follow me on social media I have been ring the bell for this for a month since I've seen it it is currently my favourite film of the year I absolutely love it. <hes> and in particular there for two main reasons one Jesse Buckley Star or performance is stunning. Oh He's so so good and the other major reason is that it's a film that is about music but it's about a single mother essentially who has these aspirations and dreams and she pursues those ambitions to a fault right she <hes> essentially abandoned her two young kids. We'll leave them a strangers or with her mom to go and do what she needs to. In order to pursue this dream and it's this constant dichotomy throughout the film of her having to battle the this ambition addition. She has to be a country singer but she also does love her kids. I think we do see that you know the the the conflict of that and the Roseland character and that film is <hes>. It's something that I'm sure a lot of us can relate with I talked about on our show that you know even doing this podcast and session film or guesting on other shows such as yours right now <hes> that's something that I have to balance in my personal life with my own son so even right now as we are doing this. I had to try to get Santa bed before coming on the show and I was trying to get everything settled with my wife so that way the rest of tonight can go smooth so I could go out of the show with Yoga that is exactly the Jill the dilemma for Roseland in this film and it's handled so beautifully adding and for me. It's my dogs but it's basically the same thing so fair. So why don't we jump into some puzzle pieces for your first puzzle will first of all for a little bit of context as I was doing this exercise. I came to the realization that I might not be great at this Game Abe because as I typically right out my notes and think about certain films and wrestle with them. I tried to be deeply involved in the film itself. It's not <hes> often that I try to think about maybe what has inspired another film unless it's obvious to me when it comes to me as I'm writing my notes so I was thinking through wild rose and I was like what what could have inspired this film. What is it connected to and I struggled a little with this so off but I do have a couple of connections here and the first film that came to mind for me was actually the Jonathan Demme film from just a few years ago Ricky in the flash starring mill streep not sure if you saw that one or now but it's about a musician in that film played by Meryl Streep who gave up her dream of rock and roll stardom <hes> because she wants to make things right with her family and and in a similar way that film ends up going in a very different route and Ricky the street character as much older than Roseland in wild rose but there is similar notions as far as being a musician and for Ricky having having to give that up because she is wanting to you know remedy some gaps within the relationship she has in her family and that's essentially what Roseland is doing in some ways or at least she's having to battle that as far as you know does she give her dream speaking of Rosendo she give her dream of going to Nashville for the sake of her family or for the sake of her children so I do think there are some parallels to be made with Ricky and the flash and <hes> an enriching the flash has music like wild rose? That's that's very good so sure are some great similarities between the two yeah absolutely at and you know obviously Meryl Streep Amazing Actress and Jesse Buckley at the kind of beginning their career but already already turning enroll great performance after great performance. I mean only a few things so far but you know just fantastic young actress but yeah absolutely I mean as I started going through some of my puzzle pieces. Definitely there's going to be some some music. Movies involved at least got three that I wanted to point to specifically but I definitely think that's a great one to kick it off with. <hes> ricky in the flash has a definite you know parallel there. I think so for sure <hes> and I'm trying to remember if I did see certainly remember it's from what was that about like seventy years ago I think it was I think it was twenty. Fourteen or two thousand fifteen saw so not that long that so yeah about four or five two years ago I think <hes> but definitely one that you know came to mind for me given again to female protagonists that are you know having to battle shore very similar dichotomy so absolutely right on well. I'm going to go ahead with my first puzzle piece and before I get into a few music ones I did want to mention this one. I <hes> I it was kind of the first one that came to mind. It's the two thousand six films Sherry baby with Maggie Gyllenhaal one hall as a woman who's just finished a stint in prison and she's coming out and she's trying to put her life together but she really isn't necessarily doing a great job of it <hes> to begin with and just to the struggles that she goes through and of course <hes> she is not a <hes>. You know rockin roller anything like that. She's not a country star <hes>. She's not making music and performing but she is. You know you know risking her rehabilitation in ways that just makes you just just very almost on edge in a way of just like like. is she going to be able to pull this together. Am I not going to hate this person by the movie Geno and you know look luckily rose you know her arc's to take certain a really really great direction by the end by the end of wild rose at which by the way I know worry about spoilers on this show. We always are famous spoilers but yeah so <hes> Sherry baby was the first movie that Kinda popped in my head as a starting to think of this the first non music one I should say yeah. That's an interesting. That's an interesting pig. I will admit I haven't seen it but A._M.. Familiar with the film and it does seem like when you read about that film or even just reading the premise of it that it will have a lot in common with or a wild rose so yeah. That's a very interesting pig right on <hes>. So what are you got for your next one one so the next one for me is it's not so much a film but more so a filmmaker I thought a lot about Ken loach <hes> the British filmmaker with films such as identical Blake and the angels I share his films tend to wrestle with <hes> not just the characters ambitions or whatever it is that is driving them but he also delves into places and politics and how that affects the characters in his films as well so <hes> that is something we also see in wild rose that glass cow and Scotland <hes> it's it's almost a character and the film sure and it becomes more important to Rosalyn as we get to you know the climax of the film and after she goes to Nashville and she experiences that a little bit and has an epiphany of love what Glasgow means to her and I love the that social dynamic of how place becomes a big component for Roseland and while rose and Ken Loach's films are that to a T- <hes>. <hes> dealing with a lot of in Oh the social economics our politics of certain places and how it affects the characters in his film cell. I do think there is big inspiration <hes> in in while rose from Oh you know Ken Loach's filmography sure yeah I haven't seen those movies but I am so very much aware of his like like his reputation as a film maker you know and and and definitely that like <hes> that that very just kinda gritty portrayal of that very specific kind of a place and setting and every and really bringing that out yeah absolutely and and I haven't seen all of his films but of those that I have seen I absolutely love how he's able to to kind of tap into that. which is you know like I said a big component of while rose that that I loved so yeah I I very much recommend Ken Loach? He may not be for everybody because he's quite methodical and <hes> maybe his humor isn't going to work for everybody. There's there's certainly more humor in loach's films than I would say that is in wild rose but <hes> I think fundamentally though there's a lot out of similarities between the two though right well speaking of China capture a very specific place to very specific like environment and in the kind of people in that environment. I'm the first music movie I wanted to bring up because it was the I tried to think what is the one like. This is like kind of the I felt the biggest parallel to and this might seem a little silly but to me it was it was it just makes a lot of sense is actually the eminem him pseudo bio-pic eight mile and the re the reason why is because I feel like they're you know obviously every music bio pic you know their struggles and there's all the struggles they have to go through and it kind of becomes a little bit of a cliche but I think that for both rose in this movie as well as be habit in an eight mile they're already in struggles from the beginning of their career and it's it's not struggles that are hitting them as their rising in through the career and they're not dealing with people you know like New People coming into the picture and ruining things. It's the constant struggle. That's been part of their life life forever. You know and it's just this these people are they. They're struggling people and so I just I felt a real connection there to to that kind of story even though and I guess it's not that far removed the world of hip hop in the world of like down and dirty country yeah absolutely and eight mile is another film where place is significant characters where they find themselves so yeah I do agree with you that the struggles that they find themselves and were immediately the N. there right away in they're having to learn to overcome that and yeah where they live the economics of it the politics of it absolutely affects both Roseland and <hes> <hes> Jimmy Be Rabbit Smith. It's a great pick right and I also before we moved to the next one. I was just thinking as I was writing my notes. I haven't watched eight mile and a while. I gotTa Wash again that movie I mean I don't know how old you are but like I was. I think twenty four when it came out twenty three twenty four I made it was so awesome at the time I was. I was in highschool so I was maybe a junior sophomore or something like that on buds. I'm from Michigan. Oh you are very familiar with eight mile the actual place of eight mile on ice and you know what that's like and and obviously eminem story is very familiar unknown there and so yeah that that film had a little bit of of a connection at that time and I would say in Highschool I was probably more into hip hop than any other shows of music <hes> so now it's a film that very much connected with me. I will say though I don't know if I expected that film or Hip hop in general Toco this cat right after you started talking about it. Just click does was like absolutely. This film has an influence on Melrose for awesome awesome. What are you got your next and it is funny because the next one I wanted to bring up? Here is a very very different than something like eight mile. I actually have here the <hes> Nineteen eighty-three film tender mercies starring Robert Duvall and this is somewhat like ricky in the flash but a little bit different in the sense that the divall character is a struggling musician such as ricky and ricky in the flash and so you do have the parallels they are as far as Roseland also struggling as we just got done talking about so despite the age gap between <hes> devolves Mac character and Rosalyn Redo initially see that they're they're still trying to do music and where I think Mac has some similarities to Rosalyn is that eventually a child becomes involved in his story. He meets this <hes> owner of a motel <hes> Rosalie played by Tesla Harper and she has a son inch and MAC MAC begins to bond with a Rowsley and her son and that becomes a huge component to the film as far as ag- him battling between do I want to continue to struggle as musician do I is that something still WanNa do or do I you know kind of shift gears and you know maybe move my life in a different direction and become this surrogate father to this little boy whose father had been killed in Vietnam if I remember correctly so it's been awhile since I've seen the film button <hes> there is again a similar dichotomy there for Mac and that film as far as musicianship and children and in how Mac is caught between those two ends of the spectrum so tender mercies is definitely one that I think fits the bill hare and emotionally speaking. I think it's it's also very complementary to wild rose right on yeah. I actually funny enough. I had never heard of tender mercies and I see here that that he won best actor for it <hes> Yeah Yeah Yeah and this is a film that I wouldn't have watched <hes> if it wasn't for my father who he grow up in Mississippi so he's much more of a country music fan than I was like I said I was more of the hip hop guy at high school but this was something that drew his eye and so I decided to to watch it with him and like so like I said it's been awhile since I've seen the film but when doing research in <hes> in trying to come up with some connections here I that foam kind of popped into the brain and <hes> yeah I definitely found some parallels there sure absolutely <hes> right on will I'm going to go with my next puzzle piece and to the next one I wanted to bring up is actually the movie that Jeff Bridges won an Oscar for crazy heart and that's on my list here too. You're right on and you know obviously there's a lot of differences when it comes to the actual story being told me you know with rose being at the beginning of her you know would be careered Jeff Bridges being at the end and and you know the the real reason that I was going to get connected and then we'll see what you have to say but <hes> it was mainly mainly because the the music specifically are very much inspired by the exact same country artists those those same like you know real just down and dirty rock and country artists of school country and both have incredible soundtracks. If you're into that kind yeah absolutely that's part of why I had written down here too. I love the soundtrack to crazy art and Jeff. Bridges performances is absolutely wonderful but I also think and you can make a connection in the sense that the bridges character in that film his life takes a turn once he starts <hes> connecting and having a relationship with someone that is not in that same world. I guess I'll say <hes> so this might be stretching or it might be a little bit vague but you I guess you could connect that to Roseland in the sense that her life starts to also turn around one. She starts spending more time with her children when she starts making that a priority such as bridges and the relationship he has what the journalist <hes> that's when you can see both characters kind of making that turn toward a positive I I guess I guess you could say and maybe that affects their music and away not necessarily Bali. It just takes it. Maybe in a little bit of a different direction than maybe what they would have. I saw previously to establishing shing those relationships so do you think there's also parallels there but yeah the soundtrack piece of this Auma Gosh Yeah Yeah great music. I've actually been listening to it on spotify all young the first one fantastic and I love I love that they opened with the cover of primal scream country girl to which I was so good yeah yeah right on well. What are you got your next one so the next one that I have here and again this might be a little bit of a stretch because the film about to bring up is ultimately very very different than wild rose but did you see the Florida Florida project from a few years ago? Yes I love the Florida project so I thought about the Florida project a lot when watching while girls particularly that first half of wild rose when Rosalyn is very selfish rush and her needs come first regardless of the ramifications no matter what kind of awkward situation she puts her kids in as we've said or her mom or even her neighbors having to watch our kids and similarly <hes> brief innate tastes character of Halley in the Florida Project <hes> is very much into herself and is quite selfish and <hes> doesn't necessarily have an eye on her daughter all of the time <hes> I. I do think that we see that Halley has a love for her daughter earlier than than what we see with Roseland in wild rose <hes> I I don't know if there was ever a moment throughout the Florida project where I question her love for her daughter but there is a selfishness. There is <hes> a now. I'm going to take care of myself. You know even if that means I'm going to be oblivious to some of my responsibility right but I do think some of the things that Halley does even in that selfishness is is as actually to in a weird way take care of our daughter yeah and so though the route the arts of both of those characters I would say is as vastly different but there is some similarities in as far as being a single mom and how they are sometimes lost as far as motherhood and responsibility goes <hes> for the sake of whatever's driving both of them regarding ambitions yeah if that makes sense no absolutely. I think that's a great puzzle piece. I hadn't even thought of that now. That's Kinda got me thinking about when I think of the Florida project it just it feels like such a two thousand tens America movie and this being set in a different country. It's interesting that they would have their own kind of you. Know moment that is similar to that you know there's this <music>. This subsection of the population you know is living you know through such struggle and everything and you know and you know certainly her her decisions. Earn you know you know always the best decisions but <hes> you you know she's Kinda. Have a hard deal of of life you know so yeah not surprising that something's going that direction absolutely and another film where places significant speaking of the Florida and that being in Orlando There's Oh an interesting juxtaposition though and that Orlando doesn't necessarily become a safe haven like Glasgow does for Rosalyn but at the same time you could argue that you know Halley's alleys Nashville if you will is literally in the same town where she's she's actually living because Disney and all of that is just down the road so I mean it's like they want to be there but they can't ever be there. That's never a reality for them. So it's interesting. How the Florida project does you know? Parallel wild rose in that and also is you know like I said juxtaposes it but yeah I I love the Florida project so much. You're probably have to stop me or I'm just GONNA keep. I do not blame you. It is absolutely fantastic right on. I'm going to go with my next one the last music movie on my list here and it's kind of even though it's very very surface level it's Kinda hard to escape it and that is a star is born. Just in the entire format of the music movie is just I think we talked. Earlier about how there's just been music movie after music movie after music movie lately I think a lot of that is because the stars born is on the brain within the world of Hollywood and outside the indy communities yeah and I mean this is very much. I almost the opposite you know story wise. I mean it's it's completely different but I do think that especially I mean we've talked about a star is born on our vox Lux episode. He talked about it on her smell episode. I mean it's hard to look at a music movie especially one with a woman as the as the main protagonist and not think about the stars born formula from the the old versions as well as the newest one yeah yeah that was one that came to mind for me as well so I I almost feel like it somewhat mandatory because there there is a lot between the two films that you can you can see as far as puzzle pieces go. I will say though it's interesting that you brought up her smell and I wasn't sure if I should write this down as a connection because they came out just months apart from each other so I don't think we can say that ads. They were inspired by each other in any sort of way but I will say like if we're just connecting the films <hes>. I don't think there's any other film at least in the research that I could find. I don't think there's any other films that has more in common with wild rose than her smell. Shore APSOS to films are almost the same movie in a lot of ways as far as the the rise and fall of the ambition and how you know the the children of those two characters ultimately become. They're saving grace. I mean there's a lot about those two stories that are very similar. They the two films approach it very very differently so ultimately each film does stand out on its own but that dichotomy of mute musicianship ambition and how children save I mean that's very very much the same and it's centered around to stunning performances affiliated with Moss and her smell <hes> man those those two <hes> speaking of Jesse Buckley and Elizabeth Moss. Those are my one a in one be of the my favorite moments as hands down yeah it is it's crazy I again the the whole music film after music film I mean I I don't know how you feel about vox locks and a star is born but I I love both of those for different reasons but to get to incredible music films last year and then to incredible music films. This year is pretty pretty wild. It is and there's a whole second half of the year for this year anyway where who knows what we'll see. I loved his stars born. <hes> that's that's a film. I do quite a door. Unfortunately I'm on the other side of the UH of the vox locks debate and you have to be on one side of the other. There's no there's no middle ground now. I will say though I'm actually in the middle on the film I I love the first half of the film absolutely door it. I think it's <music> as close to being impeccable as it could be but I did not like at all the second half of of that film it I think it's very misguided and as much as I love Natalie Portman and she gives a very committed performance but I don't feel like there's any connective tissue between what she's doing with what we saw with what is essentially the same character that we saw in the first half of the film and because there's a huge time jump between the first half in the second half we there's there's nothing to explain those differences. It's jarring affiliates very jody. It is jarring it is and not that film has to explain everything there is no connective tissue so felt like two very different film right right and and that was my issue with the film <hes> because it was one that I was loving and then ultimately become mm something else entirely that I just feel like second half has almost nothing to do with the first half of the film yeah yeah so that that's that's my issue with it but I get it. I Yeah I can see why people love it though as well right odd well. What are you got your next puzzle well for my next puzzle piece this is I feel like a little bit of a Cheetahs well because I did talk about this on my show a little bit and it it could be a little bit of a stretch? Maybe this is redundant with some of the other picks that ahead here but <hes> when watching wild rose <hes> the the first time that I saw the film a month ago the first film that came to mind for me actually was inside Lewin Davis and that Roseland is a character that while pursuing music <hes> like Lewin in that film he just isn't conscience of the ramifications nations of his choices which is exactly what Roseland is doing as well now ultimately those two characters go two very different territories but <hes> like Roseanne wanting to get to Nashville to pursue her career Lewin. Davis is on the road constantly trying to do the same thing in fact we see in the film he takes a road trip to Chicago sure because he has an opportunity there which is exactly what Roseland is wanting to to do in Nashville. She thinks they'll be opportunities. There and like Roseland in Nashville Chicago does not work out for Lewin. Honestly I think the only difference between the two characters and I find this juxtaposition and fascinating as that Lewin doesn't have any children any responsibilities to save him from is oblivious nece <hes> right he just wants to pursue music but he doesn't have any sort of grounded centralization to to kind of make sense of the world around him he just is kind of drifting and and but he thinks of himself as the next great musician would you might be because has the music of that film is incredible yeah so he he might be the next big thing but he kind of stops himself and where Roselen she does have that saving grace with their children so she's able to kind of realize that maybe maybe she can only go so far or at least she's. She's willing to put a ceiling on herself because of her children so it evokes this question that I find endlessly fascinating what if Lewin did have a child would would his story ended up the same as Roslyn. Maybe it's hard to say because you know that doesn't happen but Rosalyn was just as lost and just as confused as Lewis Film but she had something that was able to push her off the edge and into reality and Lewin just never really has that he has a scare at the beginning when there's a confrontation about maybe he got someone pregnant but you know we never really see what the result of any of that is. There's nothing really due to rain in low and <hes> but I do find the two characters kind of heading in similar directions only only to you know come to that that fork in the middle of the road you know where on the right is Rosalyn Heading Toward Parenthood and Chore Low in heading to The left just not having that for him so <hes> so that came to mind from a lot when watching while rose absolutely I and I always happy to even be thinking about inside Lynn Davis so perfectly happy with you bringing that up as a puzzle piece and I I think those are some those there's some really interesting points of view on those kind of connections and and you know I think they're absolutely you know really good insight there. There's really good so I've got one last puzzle. A._P.'s here and this is a movie. I haven't seen in a while so hopefully I'm remembering things properly here in okay in the way I remember it ending but <hes> the Diablo cody film I'm Young Adult <hes> and which you know the this this person's just kind of <hes> just kinda messy. Life doesn't really seem to be <hes> you know Oh showing any sign of possibly turning around and the thing is is that I feel like that kind of a trajectory is exactly what rose is not doing here and I feel like it's almost like an anti puzzle piece in a way that it's like inspired to actually have an ending where there is more hope in more <hes> you know more heading in the right direction and you know certainly much more <hes> an upbeat finale and a more clear sign that this person's actually going to be okay and maybe start making some right choices yeah. That's a really interesting pig that didn't come to mind mind to me but now that you say that I think that films speaking of young adult and tully actually I think work sure and similar <hes> in a similar fashion there as far as how it is the Anti Weld rose but at the same time they they are very similar. It's like those films are working backwards but then heading in the same direction sure sure <hes> so yeah that does that didn't even come to mind but yeah I love that right on right on and you you know those are also a totally as well. <hes> you know really great interesting movies with like you know very different from anything else I think I think they take on that point of view in a very unique way. She's got got a very interesting way to her with her her right and yeah yeah absolutely yeah I agree now. So what are you got next. You've got another puzzle piece. That was my last one. <hes> the last one that I have here and I don't know if I have much to say about it because I haven't seen it in a long longtime and like tender mercies. This is one of those that I watched with my dad way back when but the nineteen eighty film urban cowboy came to mind for me because that film at least much of it centers around a local country music club and that's something that we see with Roseland <hes> at the very beginning of the film she's like I guess like the main singer of the local country entry bar in Glasgow and at the end of the film after going to Nashville again like she has that epiphany where she realizes that the the local makeup of you know where she's at like like that kind of defines who she is and it allows for her to to kind of be the local country music artists and also she's able to Kinda take care of her kids so the fact that glass cow again has a a significant impact on Roseland and we see that through the catalyst of that local country bar short I think parallels what we see in urban cowboy that much of it takes place at that you know local music as a club and also that film has volatile relationships all over it well we see with Roseland as well in wild rose so that one came to mind for me as well right on yeah. I haven't seen that in a long long time either but I Komo from my recollection of it. I absolutely see what you're saying there with those parallels and yeah it's funny I was when I was thinking about puzzle pieces for this. I was trying to think of a movie with a house band. You know that wants wants to break break then become more of a major thing I guess in a Little Way Lady Gaga House Act in early on yeah yeah absolutely but I guess that AH works too but yeah I love that setting. I love that bar I mean it feels like a bar that we've all been to at some point you know just how energy and vibrancy of it it's great on well. I'm going to go ahead and do the finish puzzle now Alan then we'll get into any of our closing thoughts on loud rose <hes> so that includes ricky in the Flash Sherry baby the films of Ken Loach Including Daniel Blake and Angel share eight mile tender mercies crazy crazy heart the Florida project stars born inside Lynn Davis Young Adult and urban cowboy so we got a great list there. I mean a lot of music movies. Of course I mean it's bound to happen but then a bunch of other movies as well well as <hes> pretty wide ranging <hes> list here yeah. What do you have any any closing thoughts about it? I know you've talked about it a whole bunch on your podcast but yeah I mean I love the film I will say though if any of your listeners <hes> want to point this out to me I I would love to hear what they have to say because when doing research for this I was also trying to think about movies about single mothers or maybe even just motherhood in general and how they are specifically balancing that with their ambitions and dreams and honestly there. Or tons of great movies about mothers and single mothers but I couldn't find a ton of films that was about that specifically chore so either there are tons of blind spots for me when it comes to this or I just didn't research enough off. I don't know I'd be curious to hear what you or your listeners have to say about that or maybe that's just something that makes wild rose unique is that it's about that that I think a lot of parents are having to bounce ever Dan their lives I mean may not just with us and podcasting but every parent has their own individual and in specific desires whether it's to be a singer or to be a filmmaker or to be a painter or whatever the case may be but they have to balance out those things with being with the responsibilities of being a parent and that's a very difficult thing and <hes> I love how wild rose is about that specifically <music> as I said I think it <hes> the the way it explores that is absolutely beautiful and poignant <hes> it's it's. It's really great so any other films especially Non Music Films Mhm. We've we've already mentioned a few that that kind of do that. With <hes> the characters we talked about but non music films that are about that same theme and idea <hes>. I was a little hard for me to come by so but you know again. I've been very busy lately and I'm really tired and maybe I'm just an idiot. Mr Lots things so but I'd be curious to hear from your listeners or even from you if you have some sure yeah. I'm sure as soon as we hear name everybody Oh yeah of course that was like yeah. Read the edge of my mind there yeah but you know I I would love to hear some more <hes> some more picks for other movies that deal with that kind of a story and you know. I think you know the the redemption that this character feels that actually like earns you know. I think it's funny how the music helps her. You know get there you even though the music is kind of what's holding her back the whole time. I think that's part of what about this story. Are you know interesting irony. What did you think about that last song glass? Cow Is the name of that song. I think she sings at the end right yeah yeah. I thought it was fantastic and I I actually found this out today while I was doing a little last minute research that Mary Esteem Bergen Code Oh wow that's I. I didn't know that but that Song Slade me Oh yeah it just it killed me and and perhaps part of it is because like I said I'm I can relate with Roseland so much Rajya regarding that that you know struggle of ambition and responsibility and when she starts seeing about being at home and how much that means to her and how she had the struggle to get there I even when I listened to on spotify outside the context of the film in most needed. Here's like I I love it. I think it's one of the most beautifully written original songs I've heard in in some time and Jesse Buckley things the hell out of it. Oh hell there's one moment as we get to the climax out the song where she really belts out and it just absolutely rose me to shreds. I love it and <hes> I just I can't recommend commend this film enough in Yes if you have seen the film or even if you just want to listen to the soundtrack it's up on spotify in its glorious. It is so it's awesome is absolutely awesome one last thing I just wanted to mention and then we'll we'll finish it up but while I was doing a little my last minute research today I totally forgotten. She is starring in the new Charlie Kaufman Film. I'm ending things <hes> Jesse Buckley. I am so looking forward to that. Oh my I know I cannot outweighed either and if any of your listeners haven't seen Chernobyl yet she does have a supporting role in that mercy's terrific as well side heard yeah. I haven't watched it yet but I've heard great thing and it was it was shocking to me because I I had no idea I just started watching it because I heard great things about it and there was a scene you know kind of early on I think in that first episode and I was like Oh my goodness. I'm just like that's just the Buckley. I had no idea so. It was like this huge delightful surprise before I even got a chance to see a Waldo so she's awesome nice awesome well. This was gray one last thing we always do is I always ask my my guest. If there's something else they've seen recently that they'd like to recommend Oh boy. That is a really challenging question. You've seen a lot I have will in. It's the timing of it is really interesting. As well. I mentioned earlier that I recently went on vacation and when I came back from vacation man live things got really interesting in our hurry because I saw the last black man in San Francisco I saw area astor's mid so mar and then I got a chance to see Lulu Wong's the farewell which is I believe going wider on August second so a lot of markets markets have not seen the film but I got lucky that there was an early press screening here because Luanda's from the Miami area and so she was doing a bunch of press here so I got a chance to see the film those three films are in my top six of the year so far nice and so like I basically almost got to see those back to back to back so the <hes> and I could not wreck act cannot recommend them enough so just this these last few weeks for me have have have been delightful so <hes> I in particular the farewell in the last black man in San Francisco. I can easily recommend those mid. Somare is a much tougher recommend. It's hard to say because that's a horror film. That's not really a horror film. It's an anti horror film. It's it's harming. It's disturbing but it's not a film that relies on jump scares or typical horror tactics <hes> and it's it's very artful. It's it's methodical. It's you know if you like to go and see easy. You know get easily scared with jump scares and in mid so Mars not that at all so it's hard for me to fully recommend but I love it like I said it's in my top ten so those three films victims for me absolutely yeah. We're actually planning on doing an episode on the last Black Man in San Francisco next week and that's going to be challenging but I think yeah yeah I I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it and and the connections that you guys make to it because you know I guess I don't I definitely don't want to reveal anything there. There are few that come to mind so I'll be curious to hear he goes out to say right on this was gray. <hes> I wanNA thank you so much for being here. Where can people find your podcast again like I said earlier in session film Dot Com you can find links to everything social media our on facebook twitter instagram? The Gramm just searched and session filming. You'll find us. I guess said on the site we have links to the podcast we also have written reviews and other refund content. We have bonus content. We have patriotic content of you. WanNa <hes> support us there so again the central Hob you can find links to everything that to everything that's in session film Dot Com beautiful well. Thank you so much for being here. Have you ever want me back on your show. I would be happy to do it again. I know for sure beyond. Thanks for having me I this was a lot of fun. Okay everybody. My name is Michael. E Colin the second and with me is Matthew Haas we are the CO hosts of the all to real to podcast on all to real to tackle pop culture topics such as re watching and reviewing a direct to d._v._d.. Sequels we review any and every all direct to video movies sometimes that we review so you don't have to we also cover <hes> pop culture topics like the history of Halloween misconceptions and things of that nature educational and entertaining entertain and we've just started doing interviews with people from Hollywood and people from pop culture such as Larry Hank in which we just interviewed recently you know from Seinfeld in friends and Billy Madison among other things so <hes> where can they find our podcast Matt they can find Eh iheartradio apple podcasts stitcher and any other place that you can find podcasts on just tune in and enjoy already hope. You enjoyed that conversation conversation with J._D.. About wild rose and I really hope you went out and watch wild rose because it is a movie worth seeing definitely go check this movie out and then check out the soundtrack because it's a fantastic soundtrack to so that does it for today's conversation as always want to remind you all the please make sure your subscribed piecing it together on your podcast App of choice and if you enjoy the show he can rate and review us on Apple podcasts five stars would be amazing amazing. We are of course on all the social media's at piecing pod and we have a facebook group popcorn and puzzle pieces where we continue the conversation about all these movies that we talk about here on the show and you know if it's your first time listening to piecing it together which are a lot of new listeners lately <hes> this month has been the biggest month in the history of the show by a margin of multiple multiple times over <hes> so if you're one all of these new people who've been listening. I'd love to hear anything of this. Show so please do rate in review us or just <hes> you know getting touched on social media or whatever we would really love to hear what you're thinking of this show and we want to keep making it better and better for you. Guys are planning on all all kinds of new episodes and new bonus features and we've got a patriarch in which exists over at patriotic dot com slash piecing pod but there's not much there yet but there's going to be a lot there so we've got plenty plenty. He planned for this show so let's finish this thing up with a piece of music like I always do and you know I don't really have any country songs <hes> to play you guys but here is attract called hero from my my most recent album a different kinds of dream as got a little bit of Twang to it so maybe this'll fit the bill and joy hero from my most recent album different kind of dream and we will be back with more piecing together come in real soon <music> <music> uh-huh breath and breath and uh and uh-huh mm-hmm <music>.
#243: The Mind of Charlie Kaufman Pt. 2 I'm Thinking of Ending Things
"Hello next pitcher show listeners. Recently, we've told you about a couple of different PODCASTS and websites. You can try out to get some insight into the behind the scenes processes that go into making movies, television and other art. Here's a new recommendation for you slates podcast working, which asks creative people how they do their jobs. To Nana's hosts Ramana lomb Isaac Butler in June Thomas talked to Jordan peels composer on get out and us about what goes into composing music for terrifying moments or as they talked to American pickles costume designer about how she dressed two different. Both played by Seth Rogan. Learn how a writer outlines a novel how a museum curator chooses art how a publisher works to amplify black voices and how youtube creator learns to talk comfortably into the Camera Lens listened to working from slate every Sunday on apple podcasts, spotify or your podcast of choice. Do we. Keep the line between the past. Believes or someone passed. Enter take possession of living. We may be through with the past. Is Not through with us. Welcome back to the next pitcher show a movie of the week podcast devoted to a classic film and the way its shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Tasha Robinson here again with Scott Tobias, and once again, we have a film spotting Svu and dissolve veteran and crush writer and editor. Matt Singer here with US substituting in for Absent Friends genevieve Kaczynski and Keith Phipps welcomed the Scorch Matt. Thanks for having me back. Guys away. Now I'm old me Oh now I'm young me which Myemma, I? Guy Too many me's and I can't tell which one is the one that we should be talking to are any of these US smarter about film than any of the rest of them. Let's hope. So otherwise we are in for a long conversation usually are in our last episode, we look back at Spike Jones being John Malkovich. The Surreal Nineteen, ninety, nine feature about love among famous actors and body fees is also the first produced screenplay from Charlie Kaufman at the time TV writer after being. John Malkovich became a modest hit Kaufman went on descript the Movies Eternal Sunshine of the spotless. Mind adaptation, but then he branched out into directing his own work with two thousand Schenectady, New York Twenty fifteen's anomalies, and now the new film I'm thinking of things starring Jessie Buckley as Lucia, a young painter who's contemplating breaking up with her solicitous boyfriend jake played by Jesse, plummets even she's headed out into deep farm country with him in a snowstorm to me his gawky awkward parents played by David vs Toni Collette except wait is any of that plot description actually true were given several different names for the Chia and several different job descriptions when she sits down to dinner with Jake's mom. And Dad, things keep changing her hair enclose subtle details like a bandage on his face and eventually much larger things. Jake's parents age and his relationship to them does the basement she's not allowed to enter. There's a dog never stopped shaking itself and she keeps pushing to leave the house. No one will acknowledge her everything keeps changing. What's going on Kaufman is adapting a fairly celebrated novel by in read and it's a book that plays into some coffins favourite preoccupations, surrealism questions about identity in the self desperately quiet men who largely live inside their on minds and the breakdown of order that. May explain some of the films, more literary pretensions like the scene where the Chia, or whatever. We're going to call her recites lengthy poem by FM HD and claims it as around but it doesn't fully explain the ending as the world opens up into a literal dance number and stage song for out we're going to have to talk through the movie. It's possible to Suss out what's going on and I'm thinking of anything's, but it helps to know the book's plot and it helps to look to that title for clues like so much of this movie, it's more than one thing at once. Support for this podcast come from CDW and Dell. Technologies. At cdw Gee we get the migrating your agency to a hyper converged infrastructure is challenging. DECAF got gotta do it to want to do it but got to do it. Slowdown friend CDW JEEZ experts can help simplify your transition from legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with Dell technology solutions that offer speed and agility. Have you done it is it done yet? Why isn't it done yet rt orchestration by cdw. People who get it find out more at cdw, dot com slash del Tech. In yearly. Much about you. told me so much about both of you to and game. Tells me you're studying quantum psychics Physics. There's something. Profoundly wrong. Yeah. I came endings him. Off. No it was me I tell you I was play my own head. If it wasn't screwed onto my head, I feel like. Seeing. Seeing them after their. Thank you stay here. Excuse me. You don't have to go. To go where forward Our guys. How did you take I'm thinking of endings well, I think, I, know for a fact that there's GonNa be a little bit of contrast on this podcast because I quite liked it at home hatfields I actually do. But I like you quite a bit. I've seen it probably like two and a half times now. The half time. Just trying to be trying to sort it out it is it is least accessible film I think by a pretty significant margin, which is really saying something just saying council meeting. People talk about it. I. Think someone had mentioned how it's like, what if the whole movie where like the last third of? New York which is true in. So you know you Kinda have to adjust yourself to what it's doing. I mean another comparison I heard made to it was like it's it's like an Alan Rene film it's like a the L.. E.. Last year Marian bad type of experience, which is also pretty true. It's just fascinating compelling to me and I felt like I wanted to kind of keep going back. To figure it out and to kind of get into the mood of the thing, which is really what it's all about here because this is so much about trying to find a way to express interior life and exterior fashion, which is so much of what coffin does anyway and very much what he does here and I was grateful for it's a more dour film than he's that he tends to even by his standards but also was grateful for little moments of humor and absurdity that he packed in there is well in surprise and transcendence. So I I found it a very rich text have very difficult film but a film that I. Found rewarding so matt. Scott says that you have to adapt yourself to this film. Do you want to adapt yourself to this film? When let's put it this way when he said he'd seen it two and a half times already I started to sweat profusely. Of subjecting myself to this movie, which you know everything that's got says about it is true in the comparisons he makes our I think very fair and apt, and it's a very skillfully made movie and well put together and I was miserable watching a lot of it and The. Thought of a subjecting myself to it again is. Since chills up and down my spine I. I think in the first episode someone used the phrase quarantine moment and I don't know if I've seen a worse piece of quarantine meant than this in terms of not in terms of it being bad. But in terms of being ill suited to my mood and what I want right now and also the venue I having a hard time sort of like breaking this movie apart from its Netflix's meanness and the fact that you know if I had gotten to see this movie in a movie theater I, think the odds are are pretty good. I would I don't know if enjoy is the right word but I think I would have gotten more. And I think I would have been happier wrestling with it seeing it at home i. just I don't know it was not the best place for me to watch it feeling like we talked to in the previous episode about how claustrophobic movies that I liked Charlie Kaufman's can make me and this one when I'm already feeling kind of trapped and Claustrophobic it's almost overwhelming and I'm not by nature claustrophobic person that's not really a that I generally experience but I did. This movie. I don't know I envision, and this isn't necessarily a Christmas my. Just envision a lot of people turning this movie on on Net flicks after eighteen minutes being like I am GonNa Watch anything else I'm going to do anything else with my time and I kind of empathize with them because if this if I wasn't doing this for my job for this and I might turned it off to. And by the end of it I, I feel like I got more out of it but. I. Feel like calling it. A difficult film is almost an understatement is just confounding and challenging and it just doesn't give a lot back. You have to really work for you have to adapt I guess as Scott said you really you have to really adapt for this movie. So I guess my question there would be I mean there is a literal Claustrophobia to it in that a significant chunk of this movie takes place a small car in a snowstorm and the character the Lucia or Lucy various other names character is literally trapped she's not driving she doesn't WanNa be going where. She's going she gets later in the film driven somewhere. She doesn't WanNa go by someone who won't listen to her. So like all of that and the house stuff where she's ready to leave and she keeps saying, let's go. Let's go and no one will listen to. Her is very like literally narrative claustrophobic. I'm curious if you felt that same feeling of oppression and Claustrophobia when the physical spaces open up, but you're still kind of dealing with the mental implications of being stuck inside a certain person's body and perspective I mean, I. Don't think you really ever offered a whole lot of relief. It is tense I mean I it's a wonder. It's kind of a thing. I feel like with Netflix's almost these like levels in which they make these movies I mean because there's so much that they put on that service that. So kind of disposable and they look look the same but then there's just a craving on the company's part to. Have Tours on board the tourist responses like I am going to take that ball and I'm going to run with it and produced by most impenetrable work yet it's like. So in that sense, you know Kaufman takes advantage in makes the kind of movie that maybe he couldn't have made anywhere else which is relieving and it is it is really resistant to home viewing and I think matters absolutely right about that. It is not sort of like I'm casually flipping around Netflix's and I'm clicking on. This thing and I'm actually going to pay attention for two hours ten minutes every minute of what you feel quite intensely. But I think again, if you make the adjustment to it, the atmosphere of it is so tactile in new. I mean that Claustrophobia is there and you know just the snow globe there's sort of this oppressive sort of snow globe that the driving through is a really vivid the house where she meets Jake's parents and they're in the they're so strange and funny and tragic. Of those are so in the high school because really just foresee there's really for long stretches. There's driving there. There's the house there's driving away from the house and there's a high school and that's the movie But I think I think those spaces are all rendered with tremendous patients obviously in require a lot of patients but they're vivid I. Think. We have not even heard your opinion what do you think of it? Well, I'm not going to get to that just yet that question was intended for marijuana here Matt to answer to it since he's the one. Stuck within this movie and now stuck within this room with US asking questions I mean it's this is one of those interesting films and it is an interesting film even if I didn't really like it where I'm listening to Scott, describe it and it everything he says is true and you can see and feel the amount of care that's been put into this movie and like when I say I've felt claustrophobic and I, you know like I understand why anyone would want to. Turn off the movie especially at home I mean it's it's almost like the movie is daring you to turn it off. It is pushing prodding you all along where you are trapped in this car with these people who don't seem to like each other very much and making just the most kind of all rambling strange conversations that take these bizarre detours. But again, like that is the conceit that is designed to me I, guess where I struggled was it was like I don't mind. A movie. That's GonNa make me feel claustrophobic that wants me to feel anxiety that wants me feel discomfort to to feel the isolation in these characters and their scenario and I don't I don't mind working for it or adapting or whatever you WANNA call it. But I I guess I want something back and I I think that's maybe where the movie kind of fell short for me. It's like I wanNA care about the characters and I really never did at a certain point the characters you know the characters like we already said they. Have all these different names they mutate before our eyes they get older and younger in vanish and reappear, and they change forms they the further away got from any sort of like decks ical reality any sort of thing that I could kind of cling to it to me it just became kind of exercise and it was an exercise that I could sort of admire the craft of and appreciate what was going on. But at the end of it, I just didn't feel like I got much more out of it than that and it was. Kind of hate to harp on the netflixing. Thing too much. But you know the other thing it kind of reminded me of in some ways was like the way people describe like Netflix TV shows where it's like well, if you sit through the first six and a half hours. Right, around the midpoint of episode seven, it gets really good and that's you know that was almost how I would I could imagine someone describing this movie where it's like. Well, the first part is really long and not much happens, but then they get to the house. That part is really long and not a whole lot happens that when they get back in the car and you really begin to see the whole arc of this thing. Will that part is really slow to but then at the end in the in the high school, you'll really begin to understand how it all fits together and you do, and there are some lovely little notes at the end but it didn't feel like an awful lot of of a journey to a discovery that I didn't feel entirely worth it to me. See I think I think you would have been the journey for you? I would have thought was to get to that forget Paris joke I thought that was like that's that's the payoff that drop in that set it I absolutely like burst out loud. What I got to that part of the movie because they'd been so dry and absurdist before then suddenly. Forget Paris comes off up and David. Villa's calls billy crystal a Nancy. Just like this is absolutely brilliant. Tasha. Are you ready to tell us what you thought of this film I mean I think ultimately if if it's a flat scale, I'm probably somewhere between the two of you. Ultimately, my feeling was I thought it was a visually beautiful movie I was engaged with the conversations even as I wasn't terribly engaged with the characters. I. Mean I think Matt is absolutely right in saying that their functions rather than characters you know their interactions past a. Certain point are representative of ideas but not really representative of people anymore, and that's in keeping with Kaufman's questions about identity and his interest in the life of the mind and his big symbolism in his Meta story design. But on some level, you know Ebert, said that movies are machines for generating empathy and this is expressly a movie for generating no empathy. It's expressed the a movie for expressing a complicated and fairly abstract idea and want I like. And abstract ideas they don't feel emotionally satisfying they don't feel emotionally gripping so that last act at the school where everything breaks down into an extended Oklahoma ONA's with a fantasy ballet expressing characters like inner longing and desire, and it's snowing inside the high school, and then eventually it gives way to a literal performance of a song from Oklahoma. I thought of that was beautifully shot but just not very engaging on an actual character level. At that point, we've kind of a second, the physical or emotional existence of the character that the movies spent the most time working on and establishing. The tension that we've set up is she's in a place she's in a relationship. She doesn't think she wants to be in she doesn't see a future for it, but she's putting herself through all of these things for it, and then the movie just sort of let that go there is a huge interesting irony I think in the idea that the story is as I understand it and particularly from reading descriptions of the book that we can talk about this is a huge spoiler I guess. But the fundamental action of the film is that she doesn't exist jake doesn't exist. They're all their characters, imaginary characters in the mind of this aged and very janitor who is dying and experiences this sort of like psychotic breakdown in a way before he dies. And the idea of these characters not being characters means they're not people, and at that point, it becomes hard to relate to them and one wonders why we've spent so much time with them. I had a little bit of the same problem with anomaly. Saga. In that, you spent so much time on this specific humanity of these characters but they're really just kind of representative on idea and in the end, the movie does come back to Lisa but before that it kind. Of abandons both of their humanity and your left in this symbolic space that just isn't really about people anymore. But I feel like the performances give you that though especially Jessie Buckley, it's interesting. That is a composite of so many different things and everything that she is is borrowed from other. You know she has a palm that's not hers in paintings aren't hers and you know she's quoting at length from a Pauline Kale review of a woman under the influence it's not hers. It's so yeah. So the character is not real or is this composite of other things and yet? Jessie Buckley the actresses so powerful in the role, she's the one who kind of takes the reins here and kind of grounds, the movie and some recognizable emotion. I mean I it sort of plays with those ideas of artifice and construction, and then realness they I mean there's some real emotion in this movie, there is real emotion, but ultimately, it's the real emotion of a character that you barely get to now and I think. There's something very clever and very smart and very ambitious in building this story. Basically, you never get to know the janitor, but you know him through the figments in his mind you know you know he's insecure because Jake is perpetually trying to impress the Lucia character. He's perpetually trying to offer her things and comfort her and like even in his own fantasy of himself, even his own fantasy relationship even with this woman that he's invented that he keeps kind of losing the details honor changing the details on he still can't. Quite. A woman that's attracted to what he has to offer attracted to his intellect attracted to his obsessions I. think There's a realism to that. That's tremendously sad and I think it's very interesting to kind of puzzle pieces of the movie to see what we can assemble about the real character in the story from all of these artificial things but at the same time. I like a puzzle can only get me so far in art and emotion, and I'm seeing a lot of the a lot of people saying the same things about ten at right now it's like if a movie is exciting and ambitious and visually engaging, but you don't care about the characters at all or you can't engage with the characters because they don't fundamentally matter if the entirety of the focus of the movie is on. Can you piece these pieces together? Can you read the filmmakers? mind is a satisfying experience, and in this case I enjoyed the experience of it. I can't see myself returning to this movie. I can't see myself volunteering to watch it again the way I would watch being John Malkovich, eternal sunshine, or is Schenectady New York yes. I guess that's the difference I've seen two and a half times and and it just because it's just A puzzle I do feel compelled to try to figure out and it is well realized world that I don't mind spending time in is as oppressive and difficult as can be I like being in the car with those two those two crazy kids talking about cavities in. In poetry see I didn't see it as a puzzle. Could tease out a solution and I think Tasha had some interesting things to say about that in terms of like. Piecing together, the person who's theoretically imagining all of these things I guess the sort of the solution or the answer that you could be finding here. But when I was watching it, it felt to me more like someone had given me a piece of furniture to assemble from. Ikea. Without giving any instructions and I was sitting there going Oh this is a lovely part but I don't see how it fits to this piece over here and I don't know how I'm going to connect it to this one over here, and even while I was admiring the craftsmanship pieces I wasn't really seeing how they fit together and I was more than anything. I was just kind of frustrated that I was the one. Having to put it all. I was having to do so much work and I guess, I don't I'm not saying that I need a movie with an instruction manual necessarily but I think Tasha and I are actually closer on the movie that maybe I'm maybe I'm sounding too negative. But like every a lot of finding myself agreeing with a lot of what she was saying right down to the fact that you know even as you were saying, Scott like the Jessie Buckley performance here is is lovely at. And very true. It's like following her in the beginning of this movie, and then by the end of the movie, the quote unquote revelations or the moments of insight or whatever they might be in that high school you know that her character is the one that is the one that seems to most kind of vanish and it's like if we have invested anything in her. You know she's barely onscreen. She's sitting in the audience as Jesse. Plemmons is performing his big number on the stage and you know it's like if she is giving the most interesting performance, that's the one that's the least involved in that ending in some ways and so to me that was another kind of. Frustration or disappointment, and so yeah again would I see myself getting more out of it if I went back and watched it again and wasn't so focused on the mystery or the plot or trying to. Understand what was happening I'm probably I would do I find myself wanting to go back and experience it. not, especially, no silly here's a thing as I was watching the sequences in the house I kept coming back to David Lynch's eraserhead the whole interaction with the parents and the way everything keeps shifting the dreamlike logic of it. All just reminded me a lot of kind of the nightmare visions of David Lynch and those. Just. Really oppressive stories that he tells where nothing seems fixed in place and everything does seem like a dream but as the film went on particularly at the high school, I started to think about Darren Aronovski mother and that movie was so polarizing and I feel like this movie lives in the exact same place where you can be impressed with the performances you can be impressed with the the puzzle aspect of all you can be impressed with teasing out the meaning but. Because there is no center, there is no kind of fixed point in space for the characters you have to not be there for the characters in the story you have to be there for the larger puzzle and I think some people are going to be in some people aren't just as they weren't with mother it's a clear F cinema score. Lack of a theatrical release as it not a particular lovable film and film they'll a lot of people are gonNA latch onto that aren't really self selected Charlie Kaufman, enjoy irs but you know good you know sometimes movies are made for those made for different types of people. But I, I do like the David Lynch comparison I mean I think and I think there's a kind of this Americana aspect to it to that was also. It's something that Lynch's attracted to that some of that the iconography of being on a farm and with all of that entails something that we might see a Lynch Lynch movie to mother was definitely on my mind watching it to the Serbs divisiveness the. Trapped in this farmhouse with these eccentric people, you can't leave. I think the reason that I enjoyed mother a little bit more than this movie is just because I don't know that movie got so wild and frenetic and crazed, and it was at least kind of if people don't change the channel or turn off their netflix's watching it at home, it's the kind of movie that could easily low you to sleep with those long. Car Rides through the snow. It's dark Movie that I could imagine loved ones of mine. I'm saying this is why a lot of love and respect my heart like this is a movie that would put them to sleep. You know parents I know and relatives of mine they would just say Oh yeah. We can watch that and then you'd look over like forty minutes in and they would just be. Doing the doing the dip in. For sure low pressure. You know even the moments of quote unquote excitement You don't really get that Cathartic kind of those eruptions that are at least in mother so that even if it is kind of all one giant puzzle or allegory there or the characters aren't quite real or fully realized or dimensional, there's at least some you know some. There that this movie is all kind of it's not an. It needed a sad person in the landscape though it's just. That whole exchange again I mean he could still write that kind of thing and just So. Funny of just. People knock comprehending. Eddie the other than you know our that's like a photograph of. Kind. Of blowing my mind a little bit Scott because I didn't necessarily see that as a mission statement for this movie but that is exactly what Matt Meyer complaining about here is the the last act of the movie takes the sad person out of the landscape and replaces them with the sort of vague image of a sad person that you don't know. This ad person, which is sort of what she says where we are. Looking at the landscape perhaps. One of the things I thought I was watching this movie is just I don't know what's important here probably because it's Kaufman everything is important but I feel like you could go through it and pick out a dozen seemingly random lines from a lot of these conversations and take them away as a big thesis statement i. get the feeling that this is one of these fractional films where everything has significance and particularly everything has significance in terms of the kind of the unseen character, the janitor character, the character whose experiencing all of us, I feel like every moment that we have. With the parents probably represent something that happened to him with his parents as they aged you know is he was interacting with them like from youth to eventually their death because he's an older man and they're almost certainly gone I feel like all of it is probably significant but is there satisfaction ultimately in picking out the significance of such I'd like opaque images I think it just really comes down to your personal mood, your personal tastes and like how you interact with cinema yeah I. Agree. Though do have this thought much like you know if you compare him to somebody like. Alan Rene that what's GonNa look like in ten years or twenty years the scope of coffins career, and it's going to be one of those texts I think that come back to you because it is so full of moving parts and those parts look like. discombobulated pieces of ikya furniture. But I can see this is a movie that launched. A thousand. Doctoral papers or something, and just has that feeling of of a rich text that we're GonNa be unpacking for quite some time at least I feel compelled to do that if it felt to me like just a very large itch that needed to be scratched, which watched it more than once for this podcast because it was like, wow, this is something else in m not I don't know what it is. So I need to watch it again. Sometimes you have that feeling like I don't know what this is I don't want anything to do with it, which is another response, but that's where I stand. So what you're saying Scott is it's not bad once you stop feeling sorry for yourself because you're just a pig or even worse a pig infested with maggots. Pretty much. Oh. God I forgot the animated stuff See there's all kinds of stuff for that movie, an animated maggot-infested pig how can you not love it? Everything else in the me, it's deeply deeply fanatic. There's a lot to talk about left in this movie, but I think it's all going to be a little more interesting kind of bringing it into focus with being John Malkovich because these movies have so much in common while seemingly having little in common. So we'll be right back after this break to talk about the connections between being, John Malkovich and I'm thinking of ending things. A. Supposedly Fun things you'll never do again. Read Watt. It's a book of essays by Foster. Walls. I HAVE NOT A. Book of essays. I haven't read. The should we should find someplace. Tump these looking to note. At the couple there's all sticky. He's got this say about television. Pretty people tend to feel. Pretty people. Tend to be more pleasing to look at. The non pretty people but were talking about television the combination shear audience is in Quiet Psychic Interport, twenty images and. Start the cycle of an answer is pretty much his appeal roads of viewers on sense of security in the face of gazes. That's from. The Essay. Interesting. He killed them so Yeah. Yeah everybody knows it. Now, it's time for connections when we bring these two films together and talk about all the things they have in common. So here's the here's the thing guys. Recently, Charlie Kaufman came out with his first novel seven, hundred pages, aunt kind handful of people reviewed it, and I got an early copy and I was very excited to dive into it because I thought you know here we get to see what Charlie Kaufman does when he is not in any way constrained by production budget or values where to put the. Camera like what is he going to do with this infinite tapestry that he has and for the hundred pages that I read before? I put it down. Basically what he did was wallow in the depressive mind of a delusional racist sexist obnoxious solid cystic asshole who just goes on and on and on about how basically the world hasn't kowtowed him enough. The world hasn't deferred to him enough. He's not loved in the exact generous way that he wants to be by the world and yet with like every single page, he proves that he's entirely unlovable. And for the first time ever I started seeing this as the Kaufman theme the Kaufman character I started seeing how all of his works are kind of defined by this look at the sad delusional man who thinks he's the most important thing in the world can't escape his own head in the case of I'm thinking of ending things that feels very. Literal I mean we are literally stuck in the perspective of a like this old sad dying man who's trying to put together a fantasy life for himself to sustain himself. A can't even hold that together and being John Malkovich were were wrapped entirely around the the needs and the drives of Crag who is in a marriage that he's bringing nothing to he is in a relationship with a bunch of pets that he doesn't care about he meets a CO worker and immediately decides he has to have her and he has nothing to offer her. You know he's the equivalent of Scott Pilgrim when we recorded that commentary track work and we're hopefully going to get edited and released. Soon, we talked about the fact. That, he has nothing to offer Ramona flowers except a stale joke about the origins of Pacman and it's it feels like the same sort of thing here like he has nothing to offer her until he finds the magic portal. So what is it with Charlie Kaufman and like sad delusional men who want everybody to bench their whims maybe these are personal. It'd be too slight Charlie coffin but I mean I think he has a personality, these other types of characters that he he puts forward these relentlessly self deprecating portraits of potentially who who he thinks. He is maybe his worst image of himself is what ends up on the screen and gets deconstructed in the harshest possible light I mean that that's kind of where these films get their their darkness where these films get their absurdity in their humor to kind of go to the the far ends of depression in Narcissism and pretension, and all of these other. What we've come to know as the Charlie Kaufman character, I mean, it's hard not to read an autobiographical element into it. When the prime example of it is a character whose name is Charlie Kaufman in the movie adaptation like all the things you're describing our president in that character and that character is Charlie. Kaufman now it's not strictly accurate in the sense that he has a twin and all these things, but it's difficult to not read him or at least his fears neuroses about himself into these men when you see something like that. So yeah, I mean again, I don't know whether it is this is who he is or if it is, this is who he fears he is and. There's an awful lot of general anxiety and fears and neuroses in all of his movies that are not just limited to that that I think perhaps we're being more generous to Charlie Kaufman and I do think he's an incredible writer incredibly smart and funny person so I don't want to be like, oh, he's just he's just this terrible schlub whose managed to make these movies like you could charitably or more generously call it. You know soul baring about his fears of how he is or who he seems to be or how he presents himself more than it is his true nature or or how other people see one thing that I really latched onto with both these moves in with coffin and. is his interest in interior already in life of the mind in how the films are a way of giving very clever expression to the abstractions of of that interior it's all in the concedes his films are so have these huge hooks to them. Being John Malkovich certainly does of this portal inside. John. Malkovich's had to be can't get was like Weirdo. Hollywood. The sense like his movies have these unbelievably big. not this new one. Of anything that would surely doesn't have much but the reason why he's like he's able to use these ideas to. Get into almost like into metaphysics in a way I mean just to kind of just take the things that he's thinking about finding expression in those things through plots where everything's external and amy I'm thinking of anything's is a little different than being John Malkovich and more like the next to New York that you do feel like you're almost going deeper and deeper inside the head of these characters particularly. Jesse Buckley's character. You're already start at such an intimate place. You already start with her narrating and telling you how she feels about how thoughts. Thoughts about how thoughts nobody can fake thought or something like that that she says, the beginning I mean i. just you know you feel this immersed inside this person inside these characters and That's extremely important to Charlie Kaufman's work. It's critical that he find some cinematic way to express interior, which is usually the job of a novel. It's not usually something that films do well, but Charlie Kaufman is Kinda cracked that code whether you think he cracks the new one is another question because it's an adaptation of a book that he didn't right but it's something that he is constantly doing his movies. Yeah. I think it's interesting that I mean the the fundamental setup of anomalies. is basically seeing the world from inside the viewpoint of a pretty banal man who just doesn't see the humanity in other people everybody looks and sounds a to him as he's concerned and eternal sunshine is about literally traveling inside somebody's head and seeing his panic as he starts to lose things from inside his head this he tries to hang on to what's important there. So like looking at that particularly with these two films I think it's really interesting that the first several times people travel into Malkovich's head. He is not doing anything that would be interesting to anybody. You know he's eating toast he's putting water in his Coffee Cup before he leaves, he's polishing down his. Own Eyebrows he's taking a shower. He is going through a cadillac like all of these things that are incredibly mundane and are so exciting to everybody who's getting to experience them because they're a different point of view because they're somebody else's body somebody else's world somebody else's life and I think that that's interesting. Really subtle way of really smart and telling observation iconic gives the film I mean it would be so easy for that movie to be about people falling into Malkovich's head while he's banging gorgeous starlets while he is a meeting the Paparazzi while he's hanging out with extremely famous people while he's on stage in the middle of getting a huge standing ovation like all of. These things that stars get to do, and we're not seeing any of those things through his eyes through other people's perspective. It's all just about how even the most mundane thing becomes exciting. If you get to get out of yourself for a change, I think that that's really neat and then in I'm thinking of ending things were similarly we're spending so much time theoretically like in this man's head and we're experiencing all of his anxieties instead of experiencing his his mundane day to day we're experiencing his disillusion and the slow disintegration of his mind, and it becomes so much more interesting than you can imagine like the day to day of being a janitor being it's funny to. Hear like when you hear descriptions of these two movies that are so different in. So many ways that there are a lot of these interesting kind of echoes of one another I mean just even the the very idea when we boil down, I'm thinking of ending things at the end when we see that essentially all of these characters are not who they appear to be. That is kind of a connection to being John Malkovich where we have people who I look like John Malkovich but I'm actually John Cusak inside the body of John Malkovich and that's very much present in this movie in that all of these characters ultimately in I'm thinking of anything's alternately appear to be. You know either fragments of this janitors, personality or fantasies of this janitor or mouthpieces of points of view of this janitor, and so that's an interesting. Another interesting thing that they have connecting them when I wonder if Kaufman just spends a lot of time worrying about getting outside his own head. Because his characters. So often are either trapped in heads, which literally happens at the end of being John Malkovich or are escaping into other heads or being liberated from other heads through often through artistic expression as much as anything else. Think about this. One thing I think about it to assume that all writers feel as why certainly do is you get tired of your own voice it away and you want to transcend it in somewhat it's like I really wish I could write like this person. Writing. Not Ferociously nodding. I WANNA see the world like that person does that incite God I wish i. had that insight right and that's part of the appeal of movies in general is getting to see the world from the perspective of other characters I mean that's one of the key charms of going to the movies is to see the world through the eyes of another character it's he just has. Made that aspect that's kind of buried subtext store that's kind of intrinsic in all movies. He is kind of made that his kind of one of his main focal points one of his main pieces of text he makes it liberal I mean sometimes very literal in the case of some, these movies were describing where it becomes very much the you know the hook of the movie. It certainly isn't being John. Malkovich. See the world through the eyes of another another's. It plays into another kind of idea connection I. Think we should get into which identity and identity shifts identity theft as you have. That is kind of getting outside of yourself. When you're able to slip like that from one personality to another, we see Lodhi baking the transformation. She makes you we see Craig becoming the type of artists that he wants to become. That's liberating in those movies in thinking of anything, it's not fantasy necessarily, which were you who's a fragment of made up things a lot of ways in the case of. Jesse Buckley's character in the sense that the poetry that she's presenting is not around in the art that she's presenting not around the film criticism she's presenting his own, but it's still done the last kind of exciting. To, have the possibility of being able to be in another form to take on aspects of personalities that are not your own to be able to transcend the body and all that other stuff. I think there's a yearning almost at the center of Kaufman's work that kind of comes out in some of these films that can very much desire for kind of freedom and liberation that you're describing that comes with switching to another perspective going into. Someone else's head to me. That's like directly connected to the overwhelming claustrophobia of everything else in movies like that. We were talking about on the last episode in the seven and a half floor and an something we didn't mention I. Don't think and I'm thinking of anything is the whole movie window box. It's four by three. Every single shot in this movie feels more claustrophobic than at theoretically could if he had shot at wide-screen in some way. And so you already like even in the moments where they're not confined to that house or that car the frame never gets very wide and the characters are almost always shown in close up. So there they just seem confined by the frame of the movie itself. So I, think these two things the kind of that liberation side and that Claustrophobia side they go hand in hand in, they're very president and both movies I think both of. These movies also when you're talking about that desire to escape, you're also just talking about that desire to connect like both of moves are very much about loneliness and in being John. Malkovich, everybody kind of tries to escape loneliness through sex through connecting to each other physically even if they always have to be in John Malkovich to do it, they're all looking for a sense of connection I think the most interesting expression of that though comes down. Leicester eventually deciding to spend the rest of his existence in Malkovich's had with like a dozen other people. He talks about how lonely he is because of his imaginary speech impediment which is executive assistant has foisted upon him, but he seemed so happy in the end to be in John Malkovich with all these other people for most of US hell. Is other people. You know the idea of eternally living in a tiny space with a dozen other people sounds like I said, well, like no exit but also just like hell as far as I'm concerned sounds like the ultimate in Claustrophobia. But for the the person in this movie for all of these people together, it's togetherness it's connection it's an end to. The loneliness, they can't escape, and then in I'm thinking of ending things I mean this movie just drips with loneliness. You you get the impression that everything that's happening in it is happening because this the central character, this janitor character is so alone and can't connect to anyone no one will listen to him. No one cares about him. So he's developed. This elaborate interior order to him and it expresses itself through these elaborate fantasies again about Romance About Lust and love and longing and a connection and violence all of these things that are just a way of expressing into himself like all of these rich and vivid things that nobody in his life wants to hear that nobody in his life can relate to. And everything you're describing now connects to another sort of connection that I was really picking up on watching them this week, which is this sort of kind of fascination. But also this like terror about aging and bodies and the breakdown of bodies and I'm thinking of ending things the characters you know in a blink of an eye, go from being middle aged to being on their literal deathbeds and You know I guess that could be a commentary on how time seems to slip away from us so quickly. But when you look at that in conjunction with being done now Quebec there, you have characters like physically in the case of Doctor Lester like. Trying to escape from mortality by jumping from body to body when they get too old like it's this fantasy of not having to get older and being able to remain eternally young or at least you know avoiding the the last bit of of aging you know he's not necessarily young when they take over body their forty four years old or whatever the thing is but just this fantasy of of not having to get super old not having to die being able to live forever and not having to worry about whatever is is happens when you die I, think that's definitely another thing that connects the two movies and is a perpetual source of. Fascination of Charlie Kaufman that I'm sure we can all think of examples from his other movies as well for sure I. think that's really well observed and I think it also chains nicely in Sioux kind of further iteration of that connection. You know as people's bodies are breaking down as they're getting older as their minds are breaking down either under outside influence or because of age everything in the movies is fracturing and both of these films end up being about breakdowns about disjunction where everything falls apart in a really surreal way. Malkovich like going into his own mind and experiencing the Malkovich averse like that's what people remember about the film and it's Hilarious but. It's also just the sort of this terrifying of narcissism where nobody in the world really exist six up to him and you see that exact same idea iterative out again in anomaly saga. But as far as I am thinking anything's the whole movie is a breakdown in the whole movie is missile disillusion of mind and watching it progress from a relatively stable fantasy to kind of an environment where everything is a reference nothing entirely make sense it's all beautiful up, but it doesn't. It doesn't all hang together in a linear or logical kind of way I think both of these movies are about breakdowns of the structure of I'm thinking many things are so hanky. Unusual in kind of an interesting break from what he he usually does his I think about like you know how like Animation movies all kind of just ultimately have a what do they call it like a Rube Goldberg type of ending right? You know. Where everything just kind of kind of syncopated and there's kind of a chase or something, and there's a lot of action going on I mean that's basically how Charlie Kaufman scripts work like they get to a point where things just go haywire in happens in being John Malkovich with there's a lot of frantic action of that. There's a ton of frantic action and the end of eternal sunshine at significantly New York of course gets completely insane I in its final bit but here it's kind of like if I mean I guess you could say that the last fourth of the film, the High School is its own special sorta crazy but it Doesn't progress in the same way as is other from behaves a little differently which is again one of the things that I find intriguing about it that doesn't have any kind of predictable structure to it or escalation that you necessarily can anticipate. It's it's is its own beast I. Feel like we'd be missing out if we didn't at least note that these are both movies about relationships that are falling apart and where a kind of like clingy desperate man hangs onto a woman who is not into the relationship in the same way that he is like even leaving aside Craig's instantaneous lust for maxine and his utter willingness to portray lobby for. The connection between Craig and lobbies from the beginning. Seems they seem like roommates it always feels weird to me in that movie I'm when we get to the point of them being married because there's no chemistry sense connection and they don't quite seem old enough to be having that that movie thing. I mean to some degree that real life thing. But you know the symbolic movie thing of we've been together too long of a spark is dead I this new sense that there was ever a spark there and in the same survey, find yourself asking what Lucia and jake ever had in common. But that becomes part of the taxed as you keep getting different views on how they got together in the first place as the story keeps breaking down and. Maybe it's about her inability to express yourself and step herself or maybe it's about her actual contempt for him or maybe it's about something else entirely the narrative keeps shifting it's hard to tell but either way that male female relationship in both of these movies is just so fraught and so full of all of that loneliness and longing in breakdown we've been talking about and pretty much every other Charlie Kaufman movie that I can come at the moment as well. He really hasn't done I mean his one really romantic movie is about, how is a good thing to live through a break up? Hold onto memories of relationships that don't work. That's the most romantic film that he's made, which is kind of amazing because this, this would not rank for. As far as This would this would rank on the list of all time worst date movies no matter what you think about it. I could. I could see to some degree I feel like any movie that gives you something to talk about after the movie is potentially a good date movie but yes, sure not a an upper. It's sure not a movie that you go home and make out after unless you're just trying to avoid talking about the movie anymore. Well, being John Malkovich is streaming on Netflix and can be rented or purchased via digital outlets. It is also available on criterion DVD and blu-ray. Things in early Netflix exclusive, we'll be right back with your next pitcher shower. Finally, it's time to catch each other up on films or film related items. We've seen in the interim since our last podcast, we call this year next picture show in the hopes, it will put some interesting choices on your radar in keeping with a Charlie Kaufman kind of like Meta, theme of the night I'm going to ask me hey me what the world has been good for you lately. Usually. We don't make the post go first on these, but I wanNA talk about a different Charlie Kaufman film and it just seemed like the best transition point. It is entirely possible that anybody listening to this does not need to be told to see Schenectady New York. It is possible that you either have an you hate it and right now you're laughing at me or that you having you love it you don't need my recommendation but it just. It such an unforeseen film compared to turn sunshine compared to being John Malkovich. It's always felt like an under appreciated film filmed me and to me it's the film that kind of most clearly and thoroughly expresses the Charlie Kaufman mentality the first time I saw this movie un- unlike error absent. Co Host genevieve like I'm not a movie crier but this movie made me cry and it wasn't because of any of the emotional aspects of the film it was. If, you can believe it because of the structure there are very few films that make me cry because the structure is so like clever that in some way I consider kind of like fundamentally. Insightful about the human condition Schenectady. New York Stars Philip Seymour Hoffman as a playwright who embarks on this like ridiculous outsized quest to create this art installation that kind of becomes in a way his whole world maybe the whole world and the movie is just kind of a process of him falling down the rabbit hole of his ambition of his own creativity of his own desire to express art and to me there was just the way that it unfolds captures so much about both how easy it is for artists to fall into their own naval. How easy it is for artists to get lost in the art and how there is a degree to which no art is ever really going to accurately express real life everything that said in I I'm thinking of ending things regarding the difficulty appreciating art that doesn't have somebody standing in at telling you how to feel I feel that all of that is expressed in Schenectady New York in much subtler way through just the attempts to create this outside ambitious art piece and never really be able to to get it under control to to grasp what it's for. Or what it's going to involve because the attempt to create real life within an artwork is. In fundamentally impossible you know life is big and art is small and like the connections that it makes can feel big but it only ever really captures like fragments or parts or aspects of life I. Loved this movie. It's got Catherine Keener in it again, it's always good to see her it's got so many of Kaufman's kind of obsessions and functions again, including the sad man who wants the entire world to kind of bend over backwards and do what his ambitions say that it should and I've of imagine that revisiting it now would be pretty bitter sweet because. Miss Philip Seymour. Hoffman. But I just never think that there's a bad time to revisit Schenectady New York and of course, it's a on all of the usual streaming services. It's pretty accessible these days it's tastic. It's one of those definitely grows on repeat viewings in just Kinda. Grateful that Charlie Kaufman and they Seymour Hoffman got to work together because of course, those to have so much in common I feel like Philip Seymour Hoffman is played that type of character the Charlie Kaufman type so often so they actually do it is great and I think there's kind of a thing with two key in in adaptation in particular that the is revealing of. Process over the artistic process and the difficultly you can think of ending things, but it's hard to actually put an end to what you're what you're doing to put a conclusion to the artwork that you're working on and so it just keeps building and growing and becoming becoming this this unwieldy thing that you can't tame a think it's fantastic mad have you seen it or do you have any thoughts on it? It's a good movie. But. I will say, don't I guess jumping back a little because I did promise people would get into the title of I'm thinking of ending things that we didn't I. You're right the Schenectady. is about someone who doesn't know how to end things arguably, I'm thinking of ending things some about somebody who Doesn't know how to enter relationship. But at the same time is representative of somebody who is ending his life and doesn't exactly know how to go about doing that. Now again, everything in the worlds of Charlie Kaufman's people is falling apart and I. Think if you look kind of the range of you'll find a lot of people who have troubles with closure you know Joel in eternal sunshine is where he is because. He was thinking of ending things by cutting someone out of his life, and then he couldn't seal the deal basically even if you don't think I'm thinking of ended things is the Best Charlie Kaufman movie it's the Best Charlie Kaufman title because it could be the title of all of his movies. You literally call any of his movies I'm thinking of ending things and it would be appropriate. I think you're exactly right on that. Scott I think you're thinking of beginning things by telling us a different movie. Sure. This is all freely room but I I had a chance to revisit the nineteen sixty three. Paul Newman Movie Hud recently and very strongly recommended because again, it's like every other movie I've seen in the last six months it is a pandemic movie. 'cause it's about sick cows, diseases, cows on a ranch. But what was really interesting to me about it in I think it's very interesting about Paul Newman. As an actor like here is a person and this is nineteen, sixty three. This is one of the most. Beautiful Charismatic Stars to ever grace the silver screen and he was determined to push back against that as much as possible in spent career playing. The rascals. Sometimes you know in films like Butch Cassidy I guess are the staying. But here he's just he's an anti hero he plays a guy who is Is, a womanizer sleeps with other men's wives who betrays his father who's very salt of the Earth who was terrible influence on his nephew who? Who has a very tortured relationship with their housekeeper and to behaves dishonourably from the beginning and yet there's complexity to the character and there's vividness to the look of the film. This is a film that was based on a Larry mcmurtry novel. I can't remember the name of the novel but any case it's beautiful to look at Geelong, how a shot in black and white wide-screen the won an Oscar for it. I think it's worth revisiting. Just you know is a really interesting movie and just a good example of a star you'll pushing back against their image and trying to bring layers of sort of darkness and complexity to a face that everybody is inclined to love Hud. Why nineteen sixty three loom. So large in our the next picture show imagination right now, the whole, the throat because Lord of the flies was a another black and white film from nine hundred, sixty three wasn't. Let's funny that you would bring him another movie about somebody. Pushing back against their image to you. Being John Malkovich night I do my best. See you see now suddenly, Hud doesn't seem completely out of nowhere. I feel good about it. It's all. It's all I would watch it with the Hustler to hustlers nine, hundred, sixty one and also black and white. Also him playing a character who is deeply deeply flawed. So watching both it's all connected. All Art is one art. All ambition is all about the pandemic. Every single damn film is about the pandemic. What about you, Matt any is already pandemic related entertainment for us Yeah. My mind works as a good pandemic. Movie to doesn't have any sick cows but I think. The message I don't. Yeah. Sorry. But it I think the message is certainly timely and It's welcome and my move is. I know what this film is. I'm finding this description hilarious. This this movie is most welcome right now is bill and Ted. Face. The music, the third film in the trilogy. I'm sure it was always planned to happen just this way I guess, the the writers, the original writers who was planned maybe they wanted to make a third one for. Taken it's taken them awhile and I? Guess the the benefit of that is I think that they've stumbled into a really. Nice spot for bill and Ted, which is you know in the in the first movies they have their so young and innocent, and they have been told by prophets from the future by George. Carlin that their music is going to change the world, and of course, we now find them thirty years later and it hasn't because how could it really and so we get to see bill and Ted has kind of middle aged. Same guys but you know things just haven't quite worked out hell hell. They wanted they haven't changed the world and brought about Utopia and it's just. Not. To be too personal but it's a relatable relatable physician to be I. Guess to to feel like you're getting older and maybe you haven't achieved all the things you wanted to achieve when you were younger. And it's also a very funny and sweet movie. They kind of do this lovely thing where they they were able to bring back all the things you enjoyed in the first two movies without really rehashing them. You know you you. You travel through time you see famous people of history the grim reaper is involved, but it's not a simple rehash of what they did before and in terms of it as a quarantine quarantine meant or as a pandemic viewing. You know I think where the movie arrives at in a lot of ways is not surprising the solution to the problem that bill and Ted have in this movie, which is that Basically. There's a some sort of. A cataclysm that's going to occur in the length of the movie. It's almost a real time movie. If they don't finally write the song that's going to fix the world that they've been prophesized for all these years to write. And what you comes down to is this kind of suggestion on the movies part that regardless of whether one song could magically fix the world if. People tried to help one another that maybe that is the kind of thing that could start to fix the world and right now that's a i. feel like is beneficial to my own psyche and it's I watched all three movies. This week I had never seen bogus journey before It's really good. It's just as good as the verse movie and I felt like this one is just as good as the other ones. It's very welcome entry in the series and I, I'm sure it's playing in movie theaters. I. Saw it on a screener I. It's going to be available for rental or maybe in drive ins I think it'd be a really fun drive in movie if you have a drive in by you or I would definitely recommend renting it. and seeing it at home maybe enjoy it with a beverage or two would probably be a very Bodet shis way to enjoy it. Up. And Delivers more than I expected, it would and and you know and and connecting it to I'm thinking of ending things there is a fair amount of talk in that movie about time and time moving through you as opposed to you moving through time. And I. Might. Be Repeated Verbatim and bill and Ted face the music is it lightly more profound way dude but it's also kind of a Meta movie I mean on some level, the idea of villain Ted travelling through time meeting different versions of themselves literally trying to steal the idea for the song from their own future like trying to create something and not being able to get a handle on what they want to create knowing that they have the capacity to create something important but not being able to get their these all feel like really strong Charlie Kaufman themes and a lot of the. Movies. Action comes down to how much they love their wives and the fact that their wives are kind of feeling disaffected present disconnected from them, and there's a lot of kind of the body horror about getting older too in the in this movie as well like there's some. Yeah I think Charlie Kaufman would really relate to seeing all the old man makeup wear over the course of the movie as well. Oh, my God pollock we've cracked it wide open dylan ten three is secretly yet another Charlie Kaufman film. Do you feel like Jimmy Stewart might enjoy the? Yeah the Most, excellent Dudes, why'd you? Break down to its. Core. What you know what they are, Scott. Wild stallions. A lot of thoughts on villain Ted and I don't want to follow up on that any slight bit and all maybe we'll talk about bill and Ted a later when more people have seen it, maybe people will have some feedback about that film. In the meantime, I'm just going to see the stage. Jimmy Stewart as one should own deserve as are more I should say Outgrow. I can read you tell me it's your show. I'm just a guest, your your Jimmy go to Washington they need you there. Well that's it. For this edition of next pitcher show our next pairing will come out. September twenty second and twenty ninth Scott You WanNa. Tell me what's coming up next as parents. One of the effects of quarantine is that your children have very little access to people other than you. So you have a lot of control over the inputs they get their day to day life. Now, as a responsible father, I would never use the opportunity of fuck with their heads but not. So the parents and our next pairing. The New Miranda July movie kajillions air. Evan. Rachel. Wood's stars as the only child of a pair of small time gifters played by Richard Jenkins and Debra winger. All she's known her entire life are the schemes they pull the stay afloat. But her worldview changes when a fourth and more normal person played by Gina Rodriguez enters into the picture. The idea of parents who cruelly limit their children's point of view calls to mind Greek Director Yorgos Latham owes two thousand, nine breakthrough dog tooth. The three young adult children and dog tooth are kept penned into a country estate and terrorized by parents who monitor them. So closely, they've invented their own vocabulary words. In both films once a window to the outside cracks, just a little chaos ensues. If you WANNA play along at home could Jillian air is coming to theaters in a limited way on September twenty fifth but will be on Vod, a week after that dog tooth, which we'll discuss I is up on criterion channel among other options in the meantime would love to hear your feedback on this week's discussion of being John Malkovich I'm thinking of ending things Charlie Kaufman in general bill and Ted Three. And anything else film related you'd like to talk about we want include your thoughts on future episodes. You can leave a short voice at seven, seven, three, two, three, four, nine, seven, three zero or email us at comments at next pitcher show dot net, and we may read it on a future episode of the show finally before closing out this week's episode Matt Singer where can people find you and your work I'm the editor and critic at screencrush dot com on twitter at met singer. Think that's about it anywhere else to find me. A lying in a heap of remedies. Jersey docks you on the. I wrote a I wrote a spiderman book you can find that. His fighter man, you can find that on various book-selling platforms. What is the title of this book that they can find? It's Spiderman from amazing to spectacular the definitive comic art collection fantastic rolls off the town. Scott to my, where can people find you these days? You'd you can find me on twitter Scott, underscore tobias. Mostly. grouse about horrible thing is that things are in the world and then and then you can find my work at the New York Times the ringer vulture guardian other fine outlets job you. Tasha. I am on twitter at Tasha Robinson I am the film and TV editor at Polygon Dot com where you can occasionally find me writing about film you can find. Our Co host Keith Phipps Writing About Film at Vulture mel magazine, the Ringer and many other fine outlets. You could find him on twitter at. K.. Phipps three thousand, our producer genevieve is the deputy culture editor at vulture and she's on twitter at genevieve. Koskinen. You can stay updated on the next picture show by visiting next picture show dot net via twitter at next pitcher pod. And via facebook at facebook dot com slash next pitcher show you can contribute to our Patriots and get bonus content patron dot com slash next pitcher show, and if you haven't subscribed show on the podcasts already please consider it were so lonely we're striving every day for connection our minds are disintegrating it's making us go to very Meta places so we want more listeners we want. More prominence and apple podcasts. Descriptions are an important part getting there while you're there, we appreciate every rating review. Every thumbs up helps us find new listeners and keep our sad man lives going. Thanks to Dan the Snake Jake's for his assistance in producing this podcast. The next picture show is proud to be part of the film's fighting family of PODCASTS. Please tune in next time. GonNa, Leave. Outside. Myself, with Ri-. Give me. Too.
Spoiler Special: I'm Thinking of Ending Things
"This episode of the slate spoiler special is brought to you by or IDA getting your kids to try new foods can seem impossible. But what if all they needed was a little encouragement the makers of ore-ida America's favorite fry have the solution it's called potato pay. It's simple in exchange for dinner free from tantrums over uneaten vegetables just offer up or IDA fries as crispy compensation and Wallah. You've successfully bribed your kids. They get fries in exchange for eating their Broccoli and you get peace of mind. Later in the show, you'll get to your one parent acts used potato pay to get his kids out of their food comfort zones stay tuned the expert journalism in Apple News, plus is now easier than ever to enjoy. Now, you can read and listen to leading newspapers and magazines anytime anywhere on your iphone with audio stories curated by top editors you can hear the week's most thought provoking articles out loud from Vanity Fair, people time and more tune in on your run in the car at the park or wherever you go start your free one-month trial of. Plus today inside the Apple News App new subscribers only terms apply the following podcast contains explicit language. Point my secret now. Charlotte. What's Hello this is Dana Stevens lights movie critic here with another slate spoiler special podcast. Today we're GONNA be talking about the new Charlie Kaufman film written and directed by Charlie Kaufman, called I'm thinking of ending things and me to talk about that very strange film is the very strange in a good way. You are the nights and weekends editor of Browbeat Sculpture Blog. Yes, and you are person I'm very glad to get to discuss this movie with because i. feel like, I mean I. Don't know you super. Well, we met for drinks a few times. I'm a loyal reader of yours, but I somehow have a feeling that this movie is going to match with your sensibility, some sort of interesting way and that you're going to have some maybe some explanations of it that I might not have had and it's an extremely enigmatic movie ideal for spoiling. So I'm really I'm really hyped for this one. I'm really excited to be here to talk about here. So I guess we should start as I usually do these specials by sort of getting evaluation out of the way I sort of ask up top whether you overall liked the movie and would send a friend to it or not so that we're not really doing a review here right we're actually sort of doing a conversation about what happens including all the stuff you can't get into and reviews. So did you like it and would you send friend? I did and I would Yeah, I, think it's a really interesting movie. I would think about what kind of move my friend was in maybe wouldn't send a deeply depressed friend to watch it but on the whole yeah, it's great. Yeah. I. Would Agree I think that I would even go so far as to say that it's my favourite directed by Charlie Kaufman Charlie Kaufman movie I mean we tend to talk about movies that Charlie Kaufman wrote as though they're Charlie Kaufman movies he's one of the very few screenwriters right now working who who gets that kind of above the line Recognition Eternal Sunshine of the spotless mind right being John Malkovich adaptation of that. Particular stamp. But all were directed by different directors. The only three movies that he is written and directed our Schenectady New York which I think may come up in the context of talking about this one because it has so many similar themes anomalies, which was this really under the radar but I thought Wonderful Stop Action movie that he directed a couple years ago and now this one I thinking of ending things. So Charlie Kaufman as director is one thing that I want to talk about with you because arguments have been made that Charlie Kaufman is at his best when someone else's directing him. Mind as his so imaginative and so convoluted that sometimes he gets too far up into the wrinkles of his own brain and that he almost needs like a balancing influence of a director i. think that I might have said that myself with Schenectady which while I enormously admire certain parts of it and we'll never forget them. I think overall I did not worship the way some critics did a normally says a little bit more of just an a beautiful oddity I really loved it but I'm not sure that it's really stuck with me and that I remember it as much I. Think this is the most successful of the the three movies that he's made as a filmmaker. Would you concur with that? I would. I. Would Concur with that But I would say that it's the most successful of the three movies that he's directed that I've seen in that it is the only one of those now fever. Entity okay you. Need to it's one of those. Incredibly embarrassing thing. Around I. Mean if nothing else is just there's so many bar conversations that you will be able to have that you could not. Schenectady New York. Australia's very daunting. It's extremely daunting and while I'm really glad I saw it and say loved some parts of it. I sort of never want to see it again because you think this movie's a Downer connected. New York is really it makes Samuel Beckett look like know. Bird or something. It's a very, very dark vision, of humanity. I've got to be careful with that stuff personal. Level fixate on it but anyway, yeah no, I thought it was a very well directed movie. So let's get into enough of the story that we can at least give people who haven't seen the movie and maybe don't plan to see the movie. Some sense of what we're getting into in other words I don't want to just start asking you questions about g what the hell happened with so And so until we to so and so is and there aren't that many. So and so's in this movie to get to. It's really a small ensemble cast wonderful ensemble cast by the way like if there were an ensemble cast Oscar I feel like this movie should be considered for it because everyone seems to understand exactly what strange kind of movie there in but let's set up who these. Characters are the very first scene of on thinking of ending things begins in a car where we're going to spend a lot of the movie in which a young woman and her boyfriend. Relatively new boyfriend are driving to see his parents there leaving a city and unnamed city and going to farm out in the country where his parents live and the two people in this car are Lucy played by Jessie, Buckley and. Jake played by Jesse Plemmons, and we meet them in the midst of their conversation about driving to the parents farm already in the car before they get to the farm things start to be strange although nowhere near a strange is they're going to get later on and I wonder if you could maybe describe just in that first twenty minute or so setup of their conversation on the drive, you know what kind of? Cognitive imaginative world. Kaufman takes us into, which is not quite realistic. You start with a voiceover which is Jessie Buckley who said narrates it and it comes straight out of the novel navigation of number say name by in read that cannot in two thousand sixteen and I was pretty well reviewed. It's a pretty good novel I like the movie better but so anyway so it starts actually with just voiceover the straight from that and your income Jesse Buckley's narrating and it seems like she's The first words are on thinking of ending things and in that context about breaking up with Jake as they drive have sort of an awkward conversation about all kinds of things the I sort of. Bit of weirdness is they drive past a Farm where there's a brand new swing set but no building the bullies burned out and swings that we've actually seen a shot of it earlier ellos in that shot very decrepit. They're going to see Jake's parents are going to him for the first time. Lucie is not entirely sure stay together. So she's kind of thinking about whether or not. This was mistake to go to do this thing whatever and on the way they have just sort of a young couple conversation jake tells her will be awards were confusing readings. She tells him that she had to get home because you on virology paper about rabies they put on the radio. There's a song from Oklahoma, and that's when one see some of the sort. Of keeps happening, which is that in the middle of this story of these two people on the road trip, it keeps cutting the shots of a high school janitor sort of going about his day you see him eating rapids, watching cartoons see him walking down the hallway of high school in getting made fun of by some students there, and this is kind of intercut with this as the road trip goes. And then the I really strange in happens is after it's been established that Lucy. As a biologist of some sort, they start talking about poetry and she then recites this long boom about going home that she says she's just written on the trip. Yeah, and that moment is remarkable because well, it'll come up later in other weird ways as well. But as you say, it suddenly bronze our understanding of Jesse like wait what is she a poet or is she a science student or is she somehow both? is she changing or are we just learning more about her? That's going to become a bigger and bigger question as The movie goes on but even before that, there's been this sense when he brought up wordsworth, for example that he can read her thoughts right there's these moments where we hear a voiceover as if she's speaking only to herself and I think one of the things she thinks is the child is father to the man line from a wordsworth poem and at that very moment he says, Hey, have you ever read wordsworth but she doesn't seem to know that that line is from that poem. So that's one of the first implications that we get that there's some kind of almost psychic interpenetration of their minds of some kind. Also, whenever she thinks I'm thinking of ending things he seems to hear that reacts not Super Great to it. It's funny that you heard I'm thinking of ending things as being about their relationship both when I heard that this was the title of the movie and when it's the very first line, she says I thought it was about suicide which also becomes a movie later. Oh. It isn't it isn't right. But yet when she thinks it and he seemed to have overheard her jake, he's younger standard the trees going to leave and she when she said that she. The context of Voice of around than, I think implies that she's thinking of leaving the known that loan that sorta stuff, right but. Either way I mean the opening lines are I'm thinking of anything's once thought arrives you can't. You can't get it out of your head. You know it's about. The way you kind of fixate on those sorts of things I suppose you can fix it on the thought of whether or not you're gonNA leave somebody but obviously, but primary people. Roll over and over his. Yet. In general, the opening voiceover is sort of all about fixation explicitly. So self referential. So in a very cough Manian way, you know she seems to be aware that she's having these obsessive thoughts and trying to turn them around. So really what you get the portrait of at the beginning I mean when you still think you're somewhat still in normal and is that you're in a car with these two neurotic young people who don't know whether they belonged together and you know they're trying somewhat unsuccessfully to communicate There's also this this referential begins early on in the movie and continues in. Different ways throughout where other little bits of culture are constantly informing their conversation whether it's you know him talking about Wordsworth or two later on get into a big discussion of John Cavities movie in great detail or him naming all the musicals that he knows and that seems to me like it's bringing up important theme in this movie and and other places for Kaufman, which is you know what culture and especially mass culture does to our brains and the degree to which every human interaction that they have or the people in general have is kind of infiltrated and almost poisoned by pop cultural expectations. Ally the word infiltrated because that happens a lot stuff sort of seems to bleed through from what the brief shots receive genders doing into this story of the road trip that the refugees people are taking like There's a scene in that after they have a competition about no before they have a conversation about musicals the reason they have it is because Jake turns on the radio and Assault Oklahoma is planning and during that conversation. In which by Jake says, something kind of odd which is knows Oklahoma pretty well because they put it on every couple years. For obvious reasons, we see the janitor who is clean and auditorium where a high school cast is rehearsing. Oklahoma and rehearsing that. Song. which he stopped listening to until one of the seniors notices he is watching him gets creeped out. Yeah and so Oklahoma. Because to will be later in the mysterious ending of the movie that I can't wait to ask you what the hell you think it means. So that's the car ride and things that point I would say have A. Sense of slight foreboding, but you know but not necessarily completely trippy. Then they arrive at the parents farm finally, and this all has to do with the editing, which is really remarkable. In this movie, it could be argued the movies a little bit too. Long I, think could probably lose ten minutes and be a little bit punchier and more powerful. But that said there's some really skillful editing tricks that happen and one of them is that whenever they arrived somewhere in the car, it's always right on. Top of some extremely mysterious and somewhat ominous line that someone speaks and it's always sort of unexpected right both for the characters and in terms of the pacing of the movie, and that happens when they pull up to the parents farmhouse. When she says something like jokingly, I can't remember what they're talking about but she says, jokingly, well I guess we must must both be dead I don't remember what the conversation is and right then he says, well, here we are and they're they're at the parents house. They seem to be going full speed and then with no change up to them pulling in parking without any usual stuff you see in a movie to say, okay, they're getting closer to destination. Yeah. It's all very skillfully done. You'll see later on when they're driving in the blizzard to jump ahead a bit that there's very subtle things like the car not moving right? I mean there's there's moments when the car seems to be filmed as if the snow is blowing past, it's moving but there's other moments where they have to be parked even though they're acting as if they're driving which goes to this whole. Question that becomes a huge in this movie as to whether you know time is actually passing or whether they're somehow statically frozen in some moment of time while time as her character puts, it moves through them to give you an idea of how metaphysical this is GonNa get. So they pull up to the parents house but before they go in, they go on this strain creepy trip around the farm and I'm wondering what you think of that whole bit and if you can help me summarize it, he insists that he his parents understand that he needs. To stretch his legs and that before he goes into the house, he's GonNa take on a little walk about on this isolated farm, which she does not want to do because it's freezing out before they go in he walks out to the barn where there are cheap have a conversation about the there are two dead sheep but are sitting like just had the barn been frozen solid and she asks him what's going to happen to them and she says wilder frozen will probably be joined in the spring a memory go to what used to be the pig. are been running on what he keep pigs in to die the pig pen. Style pen and says that they used to keep pigs. They don't anymore and tells the story about how His father was taking care of the pigs that they had and was not paying a lot of attention to the losers beat them or whatever, and one night realizes that they just haven't moved in a couple of days ago over them lifts one of the pigs op NBC's that they are being eaten alive by Maggots and be destroyed or whatever, and there's an sort of ominous stain on the. Floor of the where blue pigs were undergoing they're. Horrible. Yeah. That's that's a horrible image which will return to in a strangely sort of cute forum much later on but but I think it also establishes. It's the first time I think that the movie starts to seem not just like a psychological thriller but like a potential horror movie and something we haven't really mentioned but we'll explore as we go. Is that this movie is you know basically completely gleefully disregarding the notion of genre like is it a psychological thriller? Is it a horror movie? Is that you know a a metaphysical meditation is at a Romance Oklahoma? Round. But that is the first moment and it'll they'll be more stuff later with the basement in the house at Cetera that refers to kind of traditional horror movie tropes I mean after that moment, you can't get the the idea of a pig being eaten alive by maggots out of your mind especially when the mom serves ham for dinner. Tells them everything on the table has come from the farm. And then there's a big shot of a ham. Fisted that's a good example of one of the jokes in this movie that are cruel in Gross. But funny I laughed a lot watching this movie even though I would say, my prominent mood was not humor but more you know kind of ominous menacing fear but there are definitely some some laugh out loud moments. So they get into the house it takes quite a while to see the parents to. Such a degree that I actually thought at this point are we going down the line of the parents or entire figments of Jesse filaments imagination and we're never going to see them but they do eventually show up after a lot of weird things happened that kind of imply that this is somehow either a magic you know in a bad way either somehow house under some sort of spell or that. Someone in it. Just going crazy. For example, there's a dog Jimmy who only seems to appear when Jesse Buckley's character thinks of him. Right. She asks you have a dog and at the moment she asks about the dog the dog appears and we never see him except at a moment when she seems to be asking where he is. Right and we never see him doing anything except like shake. Nov.. Water. Sort of continual seizure things. Only one shot that the dog is in it is a shot of the dog shaking off water like a dog doesn't it goes in but it just keeps going. Stuck in that moment. Yeah. So that's search to be. We start to somehow like this. This farmhouse is some kind of time sinkhole and that is somehow connected not just to Jesse and his parents but to this janitor, the school janitor that we keep cutting back and forth you. But as you can imagine, I mean we're less than twenty minutes into the movie this point and it's Already quite mysterious. So let's get into the parents other members of this caste that I think belong in the Best Ensemble Group because again they just get it I mean this is not easy dialogue to speak and not an easy dramatic universe to inhabit because you have to play a lot of different things at once you have to play comedy and menace and tenderness, and you know. Incomprehension and all kinds of things. But when they show up there played by Toni Collette and David Theophilus, how would you characterize them? I. Think I mean the very first conversation they have is threatening because Jessie Buckley says something like I've heard a lot about you and Tunnicliffe says Oh and you came anyway the juice lapsed like. Way Too long, and then it Kinda creepy sort of Toni Collette fashion but yeah, they come across like. Like semi embarrassing parents I. Suppose there are a little creepy when you first meet them but when they once they sit down at the dinner table conversation is. Like not one of the worst conversations ever between a new girlfriend boyfriends parents, but it's not comfortable. It goes off the rails. A couple of times they talk about. Her work, which now seems to be that she's a painter and vic. Father David, Thewlis does not like abstract paintings representation stuff. So they have that sort of conversation. I'm not sure how would you characterize the Jacob's parents I mean that's the beginning I guess it seems like that first dinner table scene is all about them undermining him right I mean that's the moment when you start to realize that the Jake, you met in the car who is really pretty likable, right the jake that you first meet in the car is this guy who's interested his girlfriend's work has questions about it loves the poem she recites for him. You know wants to talk about all these cultural topics. He's maybe a little overbearing and a little talky movie is very talky. But he seems he seems kind of like a catch to me at the beginning and some of the stuff that happens at the table starts to undermine that image to show that you know maybe perhaps some of it was either a projection of Jesse's mind or that some overacting on his part because the parents as they revisit, his childhood seem to be talking about this lonely underachiever and Antonia call at one point proudly brags that he he wants one a pen. In School for his diligence right and and then he wants out well, it wasn't acumen just those kind of contrast just the precision vocabulary is so cough Manian like I love how much he loves words and how precisely he chooses words but there's this whole discussion about whether it is truly an honor to be awarded for only your diligence and not your acumen and you know does he have any real skills or is he just kind of a hard working slogger? There's the usual thing where he's a little embarrassed when top story about in that, he say that don't really seem to match up with the present guy but they have a conversation where Toni Collette starts talking about how smart he is because he can answer all the questions in the genus edition of. Trivial pursuit just dropped Jack up the wall the she's not saying the genus edition. And that's I. think that's the person he likes seems to lose his temper, but he lives with his mom not with Jesse, right just because she just insists on saying that condition drop them off the wall that Trivia question comes up as well because that's the first time. The story is told of how Jesse and Lucy met in that story becomes important later on. because it keeps being told differently and having different permutations as this movie starts to question both the identity of those two characters and history of their relationship. But according to the first story, they tell they met at a trivial pursuit game which would match with the characters you see in the car who were very cerebral and brainy trading, all these references and talking about ideas, etc.. Guest. The first moment would remark that seems like I mean for one thing is very cinematic effective but also seemed like a great horror movie moment in the early part is when they're all sitting around the table having this Awkward Conversation Stealthily Going Through these things and the camera I can't remember if it cuts her of it of pulls back but the camera isolates Jesse in this door frame so that you can't see anyone else at the table. And you hear her saying as she was talking about the trivial pursuit meet up that all seems so long ago doesn't it doesn't it seem impossibly long ago and there's this sense right? Then that maybe no one else's there and she's imagined the whole thing and I had a strange flash forward like is this going to become like the very ending of two thousand, one space odyssey where suddenly she's alone in a house you know age really rapidly or Something, there's a sense at that moment that maybe she imagined a whole the whole thing and I guess here I'm getting close to a question that's going to become a big over arching question as I ask like, what does this all mean and what is coughing trying to do which is which of these characters I mean protagonists may be the wrong word. But whose perspective? WHO's brainer we inside most of the time right I mean when we experience these Strange temporal shifts or everyone seems to be gone for a second. I'm kind of assuming at least through the first three quarters of the movie or so that is Jesse said that she's the protagonist. She's the one who weird things are happening to, and you know the the weird cinematic things that happened like that camera movement are echoing subjective experiences of hers. I think she's the narrator but I don't think it's happening inside of her head. Can We? It's? This point. Yeah. I mean it's a spoiler special I. Think we can get spoiler as much as we want and jump ahead and I should warn listeners who haven't seen the movie that I, think from here on out, it's sort of all bets are off but hey, the titles spoiler special. So you know what you're getting into. Exactly my read is that it's narrated by Jesse Walkways Carter, but it's taking place in the head of the gender. Interesting. So he almost animating her as a character as if he was the writer of the story exactly I think he is the author of this story. These certainly I mean if I can talk about the novel, he served that certainly the way novel works in the novel the text of the novel are the janitor sort of Henry Darker type and darker was a janitor or custodian at a Chicago Hospital who just sort of worked as a custodian entire life and Len he died they found in his place. These manuscripts one of the longest works that are written in English science fiction epic about a child slave rebellion that he had written illustrated himself in. It's like you know hundreds of thousands of pages and then several other novels he wrote at one point he tried to write apparently. Autobiographical novel that he got about one hundred pages in and then. Got to the point where he witnessed this tornado as a kid, and then he wrote like another thousand pages narrated by the Tornado. which goes about having adventures in very strange very strange guy. But the idea basically that have this quiet unnoticed life but in his private time was creating this just. Bizarre Literary, Work Right, which which was also, we should mention not to go too far down darker lane, but he so fascinating was also illustrated by these extraordinary paintings of yes. Sort of little girls at war with each other this this big cosmic story that he was trying to tell anyway, just a fascinating figure who I'm sure novelist Ian read must have had in mind as he was creating that janitor character. Absolutely all right. But if that's the case and now focusing on the the movie, not the book if this is somehow taking place from the janitors perspective is he somehow Jake as well I mean my assumption throughout the long period of the movie where we're inter cutting between the doings of Jake and company and the janitor was that the janitor somehow was jake in the ultimate university ended up in if you will. You know that that somehow he was in a time loop where he? Kept repeating this trip that's very clearly implied many times. The trip has happened many times maybe with different girls and that the janitor is just somehow the the lonely outcome of all of those failed attempts at romance does that make sense? Did you ever either in book or movie believe that Jake and the janitor one in different time spaces? I think they are I think the basic thing that's going on there is the janitors is thinking of ending things and this story is sort of A. Hypothetical. Booking back then moments in his own past. Get to get to what some of those are the the sort of lightly excruciating dinner scene comes to an end and we start to come to a stranger part of the movie where the time travel elements and you know the the temporal bins that are happening get more weird. But before that, there was a extra textual incursion that you WanNa talk about a moment one. Of the many moments when Charlie Kaufman brings in another sort of work of art from the outside, you want to talk about that. Yeah. The sort of horror movie moment that you talk about where Jessie Buckley is the frame, the doorway, and then it cuts to a full on shot of her that Kinda pulls back in room. The empty is that that I kind of like. As, you said very creepy horror movie moment, but it cuts directly from that to the janitor again, who is now sitting in an empty classroom with A. TV and a DVD player. He's watching a Robertson zemeckis romantic comedy on it. So the narrative completely stops at that point and we go into him him watching this other narrative on his lunch break, which is a very you know it's the Charlie Kaufman deliberately shade. Hollywood movie in this case supposedly directed by Robert Zemeckis the romantic comedy. So this couple one of whom is a waitress the other who is training to waiter following around he gives a big passionate speech about who this woman is that she's not just a waitress etcetera etcetera it's you know it's the end of comedy the moment when all all the customers applaud right that has to happen in every romantic comedy. The, exactly, and then we go back to the house and then things start getting really bizarre. I have to say my first big laugh out loud moment was just when the words directed by Robert. Seconds here at the end of that clip because he doesn't reveal write that name until the end of the clip and there's just something so snarky and hilarious about it but also you know it's it's another acknowledgment. Of what they were talking about earlier in the car about people's minds being kind of invaded by tropes and is from movies and popular culture about what romance is supposed to be, and later on we will see that that is almost like some sort of alternate universe meet cute. The two of them might have had rather than the one that they did have at the Trivia game but I love the placement. That was just a moment. Right? Just had sheer respect for just Charlie Kaufman's audacity and sense of humor I. I love that Transition Smash cuts to that that credit at the end of it just very abruptly this sort of abruptly custom them pulling in places in it's unexpected and really funny this Great Matt I'm going to interrupt his very interesting conversation for a minute for a word from our sponsors this week electric. Some people find them weird. But you know what else people thought was weird social media ridesharing viral dance challenges, and of course podcasts. 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APP because great journalism deserves to be seen and heard new subscribers only terms apply the. So then after that break, we go into a completely different mood, which which really is close to the the closing of two thousand one we see you know cared delay aging in these very fast spurts. There's something like that about this next sequence of the movie where we're back same night same farmhouse, but the parents have changed and keep changing in different ways. So Jesse Buckley's starting to explore the house sort of trying to figure out how the hell she's going to get out of there that same night do you almost want to say that she's not appropriately afraid for how strange the things? Are that starts to happen. But then again, I think that is part of her also getting sucked into the psychological strangeness of this Universe Right, and this is kind of part of what Charlie Kaufman is trying to do is to disorient us and make her disorientation more understandable so that she's not reacting in a logical way like what the Hell's going on here. But letting herself be sucked into the strangeness and the First Manifestation of that strangeness is that she goes upstairs to Jake's childhood bedroom, which is labeled with the sign Jake's childhood bedroom and is met by David. Dooley. Says The dad but he's older he's got he's had a serious application of age makeup since last time and He seems to be somewhat demented as he admits, he says I'm losing my memory. That's why there's the sign on the door identifying Jake's childhood bedroom but there's a lot of temporal things in that bedroom that are off it seems to be the bedroom of a much older person right his memorabilia and his toys and things are would be a kid who grew up in the fifties or so and there's just something about that room that makes you start to think. Okay. Well, now we're in a time travel movie you know where she is slipping between different timeframes. The other thing that's significant about that room when she does there is a sort of bookshelf and on that bookshelf are. There's a copy of a supposedly fun thing. I'll never do again which conversation there's a copy of the novel called ice by a common. There's an anthology pollen Kale reviews and I think it's missing before the father appears there a book of poems by HD that? Jessie Buckley picks up flips through and in the book is the home that she recited earlier in the. Movie in the car that she presented something she had written at that point. So all of these works like the cavities movie that they later talk about or like the David Foster Wallace book essays that he mentioned to her later are real works but there's a way that this movie weaves them into you know the the character stories so that somehow she also wrote this poem that is attributed to someone else on his table, and I suppose that if you were going to be as later on, I'm going to ask you to try to be a total pragmatist robot. Who has just trying to sum up exactly what was happening in some non magical universe that what you might say would be that this was his projection, right? It was a good poem that he read in a book and he wished that he could no the woman who wrote it and he created a girlfriend in his mind who had in fact written that poem young but I've seen that it goes a little bit backwards i. think it's more like the author here, the janitor whatever is creating a girlfriend and has to give her some sort of a character and. In the absence of having an actual person who knows because he is so isolating because he never actually knew this woman who sort of. Populates her head with things that he's been reading and doing and seeing zone. There's also a variety textbook on that shelf. So the first thing she talks about what she's doing is is a pockets in that book and then when she's a poet. What's your poetry like? Well, it's like this film that he just read. The Bedroom and when they start talking about a woman under the influence that what what she does is she literally recites pollen kills review or right extra, which is also on the shelf there. So it's like he's trying to imagine a girlfriend who's smart about filming likes talking about movies well. You. Who Do you model after right I? Mean we're skipping ahead of at that moment blows me away also just as performance by Jessie Buckley just the subtle way was she. She does he changes her voice and I mean without even looking it up i. knew that has to be Pauline Kale it's it's a different voice that she speaking in and it almost had A. Sort of mid-century cadence, it was just a brilliant little piece of performance when she transformed transformed into Pauline Kale for that moment but just talk through these these temporal changes with the parents. So they start to happen kind of harder and faster during the next couple of scenes like the parents go back and forth in age she goes into another room and Jesse Plemmons his character. Is still the same age is now feeding his mother in a wheelchair and she's much much older. Right she seems to be on the verge of death. In fact, later on, we see her on what seems to be her deathbed possibly already dead. But meanwhile than David Hulas pops up from the kitchen and he's young again, not just as young as he was when we. First saw him but an even younger iteration of himself, which also happens to Toni. Collette at one point right showing up in an apron looking like a sixties housewife and so it seems sort of clear that she is I mean in a way that really brings back being John Malkovich or maybe it was attornal sunshine where there's a moment. Yeah. Eternal Sunshine in a moment when. He travels back into his past right, but he's still an adult. This seems to be some dreamlike exploration of the various eras of his life that Jesse plummets character has lived through in this farmhouse and the last little moment at in this farmhouse sequence that I wanna mention is just the closest that this part gets to being straight up horror movie almost in a periodic way, which is when Toni. Collette as one of the younger iterations of herself as as a mom sends Jesse Buckley's character down into the basement which has been identified before and it almost joking way as this. This place that Jesse plummets character doesn't like to go. It seems like it's been taped off their the scratches on the door that he attributes to the dog but it all seems very suspect and you know it's A creepy horror movie basement on a farm, which she has had been hesitant to go down into but the young Toni Collette hands, her this soiled nightgown soiled apparently with Jake's baby poo. So that's how far back in time she has traveled and says, Hey, why don't you go and put this in in the basement? There's a pretty scary scene of her descending into the basement with Jesse plummets character. The top sort of inaudibly begging her not to go in and the movie makes it into kind of a red herring because nothing monstrous does happen in the basement. But what happens I think a good clue to your theory that the janitor was just making this all up in his mind the whole time because as she reaches into the Washer to put in this nightgown, all is in there is. One after another of his uniforms, these custodial uniforms that he wears to clean up at the school that we've already seen with the logo on his body so that some kind of sign that WHO's actually living in the house and once again, this is the pragmatists robots speaking trying to somehow make it. Is it the person actually living in the houses just simply the older janitor who is possibly an old jake and who's imagining all of these other people including the girlfriend being there. Didn't experience that in real time I don't think is just because Jesse Buckley's character is so believable I mean you so feel that you're inside the specific sensibility of a specific woman with a voice she does not at all seem she's not at all written or played like a mere projection of male fantasy. And two things about baseman allegedly one the. Jake from the very beginning does not want her to go down there and before she goes down young Toni Collette from the sixties conversation about how Jacobs so bossy and controlling and tells you that she doesn't have to do what? Jake, tells her and encourages her not to do jake tells you to do. So when she's going down the stairs, Jacobs just does not want to go down there. That's if you believe the Jacob and the janitor are the same person. It's one of those kind of character rebelling against the author moments. The other thing that she finds down, there are a bunch of. not very good landscape paintings and posters for an exhibition of Ralph Albert Lake Lac paintings, which matched paintings that she had showed the father earlier in the thing and Said said, we're hers right and that goes with your Pauline Kale theory right so that the blake lock painter would be a painter he admired and then subs- subsequently projected that painters talent onto his imaginary girlfriend. You just thinking of this. But yeah, the other thing is that during the Conversation Toni Collette says the Jake used to paint but doesn't anymore What we're seeing down, there are these just not very good imitations of Robert Blake walks style. So it's also true that place is for Jake or for we think the janitors is Jay. Another sort of abandoned place where his life could've taken a different turn. If he were a better painter night, which is something he doesn't want to get into but it's another thing where she goes down there and sees work that exists in the real world and was done by a real person that she was previously claimed that she did herself. They're just brilliant enigmas and I love that they're never solved and I have a few things to say about this movie but nothing. So far I would say that for the first hour of this movie or so I was just spellbound just loved everything that was happening and we're still in that part so they do finally. Manage to get away from the House and start driving back home again although the idea of what home is keeps on changing and you know she'll say I really need to get home for tomorrow from my work and he'll say you mean the farm and so we seek to me losing touch with the idea that there is any city for them to go back to it all, and then I guess maybe the next little moment we should touch on is Tulsi town the All night ice cream stand that they decide to stop off at for a snack along the way home. Yes. So if they're driving jake sort of suggestion insists that stopping get blizzards basically in the in the novel off of the Dairy Queen. But they stop at this for some reason open late at night in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard, a Tulsi town, which is a. Dairy Queen Stand in whatever order these. I think burs. Critic lizards I love stuff like that too just like Charlie. Kaufman making up brand names you know he's good. It's yeah like that much later in the film, you see sort of like the Kelsey count advertising that is explicitly modeled after a drive in Africa requiem from the fifties. But anyway so they get to Chelsea town to corpse there I, and if you pay close attention, you'll see that one of them is the girl who was making fun of the janitor in the hallway. One. Believe is the one who singing Oklahoma and it's a little bit creeped out at the janitor watching her right there. The pretty popular girls from the high school where he cleans right exactly. They react Jake in a way that doesn't make much sense if he lives in the city of air often, but it does make a certain amount of sense. If you imagine the way pretty popular girls might interact with their janitor if he showed up at their workplace unexpectedly that whole sort of senior teacher shopping. Thing whether a little creeped out to see him outside of that pet context. But in the context of just about the injustice character stopping there, it's just incomprehensible they're just behaving weirdly and then there's a third character there who comes out to actually make burs and she sort of mousy looking girl we've also seen well. Earlier in the thing while the janitor was walking down one of the hallways and that shot Jake has a a monologue where he says I look at the kids I see at school every day which right off the bat doesn't make sense his jake doesn't sees kids at school every day I see the ones who are ostracized. They're different they're out of step and I see the lives they'll have because of it sometimes I see them years later in town at the supermarket I see I can tell it they carry that stuff around with them like a black aura like a millstone like an using wound. Over that shot, we see this sort of unpopular grown high school hall, and then she peers at Tulsi town sort of and she's nice were the girls are. Rude and she talks to Jessie Buckley about how she thinks that if it's made different because they're pretty or whatever but she's also very interesting very frightened and she has a weird rash her hand that. Matches Barash that we see only in that shot that's also on. Of only one shot where money's on. Jake's. Strange thing I. didn't see the transference of the rash in that scene. But yeah, that that girl was because she seemed to be one of the few lucid characters in the in the film universe outside of Jesse to the that we even know that Jesse is real. She's the person in the horror movie. He's saying something wrong is going on here and you need to get away. Yeah. It's the it's the creepy guy at the gas station in the horror movie confident whatever she says like. You don't have to go with him to Jessie Buckley the don't you don't I think he might say something like you don't have to go through with it while she also implies you can stay I mean whatever kind of temporal loop has been created whether it was created in some universal way various people or only in the mind of Jesse clements character she seems to know about it because she says, you know they'd had that conversation earlier about time and do we pass through time or does Time pass through US and and she seems to be saying you can just stay here and let time pass through you almost as if he's offering that opportunity, she also says this really creepy never explained thing about that smell in the back, it isn't varnish like I said, it was it's something else and then that gives me this ends almost which is also never really explained that there might be some malevolent force above them all that's keeping them fixed there. Right I mean what is varnish? Do it fixes something in time. Somehow this idea that you know the the Tolsey town ice cream places some source of this. Whatever factor it is that's freezing them in time to be pragmatic robot about it I also think it's possible that the janitors preen a place where they've been doing some varnishing at that point in the story but she says, it's not that great. She offers some scary idea that there's some. There's some other substance that's keeping them trapped there and I mean, I do know. that. Not all this has ever explained by the way there are a few things at the end that I wish were explained a bit more and we'll get to what those are. But in general I just loved this movie is full of mysterious red herrings that you could think about forever and not be able to resolve. The scratches on the door. Like way higher than the dog right. There's a lot of stuff just to sort of. Yeah. Left left unexplained in a very, very fun way. So the next stop off that the couple makes after another long stretch of driving which I think this is where they talk about cavities and David Foster Wallace I. Mean. There's something very funny about how how This movie is also very cinematic and you know the camera is extremely important. It's not that it could be a stage play, but they are long long stretches especially in the car that are actually you know my dinner with Andre in a car. It's like about the idea that they're discussing and and I really love that also that there references don't always converge. At moments that you know you feel like I'm hearing a girlfriend and a boyfriend sort of commute about something. But in other conversations like the one about cavities, they really disagree they strongly disagree or the song baby it's cold outside they have a little argument that I've seen often being had on the Internet about whether that song is a song about sexual coercion or not. There's something to me about the fact that Charlie Kaufman is interested in those ideas that he doesn't just want to satirize the fact that they're having these intellectual conversations but that he's he's interested in the subject himself. Yeah. I would agree with that I would also say that if you're an elderly janitor imagining a fight between a younger version of yourself entirely hypothetical girlfriend. It might make sense to. Give them an argument that you've seen a million times on the internet or have. Like I think there's a lot of this stuff that is I. Look back at this script fraternal sunshine little bit after I. Saw this in that movie also I mean Cochran just does this but the the female characters will be particularly talk about things they've been reading about. Kate winslet quotes Tom Waits Song at length and There's a sense in which is kind of a self critique going on here about. These characters that the janitor or whatever I mean again, if you buy my read of it, but the genders creating are not necessarily all that well. Thought out or well drawn. Their. Conversation about babies cold outside whatever is is also just like like as you say, it's a conversation that you've seen it a thousand times presumably as the as the awful. Yeah and so that's almost like a kind of glitch in the Matrix he's created or something right because. Because other conversations that they have seemed to be about their actual subjectivity and I guess this is the my mystery and my resistance to the idea that it's only janitor stream maybe just because I found Jesse Buckley's characters such a fascinating protagonist and I it was very sad to imagine her just being reduced to the Mir figment of someone's imagination. Well, I mean you could say that she'd being reduced to the immagination or you could say that she's a character I mean any movie you see there are a lot of people who are not real people. They're some of them up right Yeah Yeah, no, you're right I mean, and that's that's kind of the mystery of Kaufman is both things could be true at once right she's a real fascinating character and she's obviously a figment of you know both the the author of the novel and of Kaufman's imagination. So their last adventure that they go on after they've gotten their Oreo burs. Apparently. Drink is that they wind up at the school itself and that happens I guess just because Jake is obsessed with throwing away these drunk burr blizzard things, right? Yeah. He's afraid they're gonNA melt where he says he's afraid that they're going to melt and get his couple resolves sticky but he knows who tells. Jessie Buckley that there's a, there's a high school up. That familiar with the a trash can be confirm out in and insists against her objections into. Grinding their advice will and. When they arrive with another one of those abrupt like jobs parking jake gets out of the car with the burs and goes to the nearby trashcan opens it and. Apparently doesn't like what he sees there. And then goes into the high school and disappears and leaves Jesse buffy alone in the car in the parking lot. Eventually, he comes back having thrown them out and they have sort of a fight about the fact that he walked off the mood changes in the of their fight from Jessie. Buckley being furious that he's taking on this crazy journey to throw away the Oreo burs to them sort of getting along and they're about to kiss when suddenly Jake pulls away we get. Like a a psycho search shot of the janitor looking through it looks like like a hole in the wall isn't he supposed to be his car rubbing the snow off of the window of the car is that with that shot I have you're right? Like he was standing in a room so it cuts to sunshine of a janitor and then back to jake and Jake is really mad and he says that this janitor was looking at them and something along the lines of I know that look very well, and she says, you can go talk to him because it's not okay within that this guy speaking palm whatever was watching them and again against Jesse Buckley's protests, he disappears into the high school and she eventually follows him into this But empty school at night in the middle of a blizzard. And after she gets into the high school I mean which which is all in keeping with the theory that. That the janitor is the future Jake. But after she gets into the high school, I feel like reality gets the most bent that it ever gets, and we'll see some of the ways that that happens and I would also say, if I, were writing review this movie this would be the part where I wouldn't say the movie completely falls apart but. Where the tightness of the spell that it extends over the viewer starts to slacken a little bit and a huge part of that may just be because Jessie Buckley becomes a smaller and smaller part of the movie and maybe this is just my conventional last girl. You know expectation that we're going to stay with Jesse until the end, but in fact. She starts to some degree to disappear from the movie. She does have this wonderful exchange with the janitor in the hall this strangely tender kind of encounter with him where she asks if he seen Jake but she can't seem to remember anything about Jake possibly maybe even his name what he looks like the story of how they met has now completely changed and she tells the story of their trivial pursuit meet up. That was so romantic and cute when they told it to the parents. Now as if he was just kind of a creeper who was bugging her and her girlfriend later earlier on, she called this person who we never see her girlfriend and use all that she meant it as a platonic girlfriend. But now she seems to mean that that was her romantic partner and she's annoyed that this man was creeping on her at a bar. So I guess in your theory, the pragmatic, not your but the pragmatic robot, one what would be happening here is simply That the janitor has a moment of lucidity where he realizes that time that I flirted with a girl at a trivial pursuit did not turn into a promising relationship. It was just me pestering a lesbian who was trying to celebrate anniversary with her girlfriend and she says something like you know you might as well ask me to remember what a mosquito looked like that bit me forty years ago, which would be pretty Harsh to hear if you were the old version of that person. Yeah. If you were telling the story to a third party, she seems very angry with the janitor while she tells it in a way that wouldn't be right. If Jake gender were not the same person she sort of annoyed by it concludes with her giving the janitor this hug. That seems very genuine right that they share this moment of her sort of. Thanking Him and pitying him I it. Whatever place she's in mentally right. Then she seems sort of seems to think of the janitor as some kind of help mate or salvation. Well I think that that's a moment where maybe she understands what's going on better than necessarily the audience does I mean I think like one way that you could read it is it's sort of like. If you say the janitor who's dreaming all of this up whatever he's. Created, this hypothetical girlfriend and he sort of been fleshing out trying out different names, different professions, different colors, or sweater. All of that stuff keeps shifting as he goes in it's like he's he's if you say it's among lucidity it's also it's like he's finally drawn that character precisely enough that she can reject him. You know that's like she's come to life more than necessary. Wanted her to is one thing going yeah. It's as if her figment of his imagination side has been overtaken by the actual content of her writings and there are all these conversations that they have from very early on about being seen basically about the gender that he's or. It's Jessie Buckley saying it about the sense of being invisible unless she is with Jay Parker couple and you got to think about the point in his life that. Grow gets to see while they're in the house. It's stuff that he did but he thought was good that he didn't get any credit for They have a conversation he says something about bad about it feels like. People don't see the good that you do in your life and it just all goes to nothing and what you've seen is that this jake character has overtime caregivers parents with. Dementia in failing health and all that stuff and. I think that character has reached a point where she. Is. Sort of reclaims her own identities is no I'm not this person on the we would never dated I was you know whatever talked to goes back to that moment but also is real enough to have kind of seen his life in a way that nobody no one ever did I mean I, think that's why he's kind of dreamed up a witness. I took that moment tenderness between them as real as a real sort of like. It's the Janitors Henderson, the janitor passing. Knowledge on himself but I think she sort of understands like that. Whatever per she was feeling Messori, she's build it. And so maybe in that sense, it makes it makes sense that she would drop out and maybe my sense of deflation with the end is just simply that I really liked the actors and the performance of Jessie Buckley and at certain amount of energy went out of the film after she left it although there's not a lot of movie left after that but what there is. So now, we get into the vortex of weirdness of this movie and Oklahoma comes back in a big way. So after her hug with Janitor Jesse Buckley's wandering through the halls, she does see Jesse Plemmons again they sort of spot each other from a distance down a hall and then this wonderful slash strange incomprehensible dance sequence ensues where a double for each of them dressed exactly like them but you know a dancer in fact, I think maybe the young dancers that we saw before the hall, Rehearsing Oklahoma Or not. Sure I don't I I looked at that but you don't see their faces in that earlier. Yeah. At any rate they echo those two young people that Jenner had earlier passed rehearsing in the hall. The to Jesse's the to actual actors we've been watching all along as these characters kind of drop away and their to dance doubles dressed exactly like them go into this extended a kind of romantic dance sequence that reminded me of the you know like an mgm dance sequence within a movie right? Those moments in Singapore train or American Paris where the. Story drops away and centuries shows up in you know there's this non narrative dance sequence that happens and that happens all over the school. It's quite extended. This is one of those moments where I thought like although I'm enjoying this and the idea of it is great. It is extending the movie to two hours and ten minutes I kinda get the idea. But it culminates Oklahoma style in this fight dance in the gym where a different dancer shows up who's double for the janitor right this kind of older man wearing the janitorial costume suit and and then a knife fight breaks out during the dance something again, that happens in Oklahoma and the finale of this knife fight is that the dancer Janitor kills the Dancer Jesse who then Owen? And Snow is falling, which at this point makes perfect sense for some reason, even though they're in a school gym this same so is filtering down it's been snowing throughout the whole movie which I think really speaks to you know it's a beautiful detail that speaks to the interpenetration of inside and outside right inside and outside of a building and also inside and outside of these people's minds. And To, sweep up the snow after the dancer Jesse has died but the real janitor guy. So now we're at least back in a world where that fantasy dance sequence has ended. But what does it mean? Okay here here's where I just couldn't get into some flat like bring out the pragmatic robot. What does it mean that fake dancer Janitor Killed Fake Dancer Jesse, and you know if you were going to map that onto some kind of allegorical. Graph that was equal to this movie in Oklahoma a I mean what? What happens with that dance sequences the. I don't know the characters names in Oklahoma for the female character Jessie. Buckley character whatever is has taken laudanum and has like a fantasy dream about her two suitors. One of the people who is pursuing her kills the one and so I think like if you WanNa do to pragmatic thing within issue seeing the version of gender killing the young version of the janitor I mean it's it's old age destroying youth right and also the fantasy dream of romance at that dancer. Jake represented right having been killed by the reality of loneliness and old age yeah. Exactly. Do we see either young jake? Jesse again after that sequence I think they just disappear from the movie, right? I think the next time we see them as in this closing that we're about to talk about. That's right. Yes. So you then follow the janitor who has cleaned up this thing or whatever as he leaves school gets into his truck, but he doesn't start it. He just sits there as snow is falling around him and I don't know if it's in dialogue or whatever. But you you get the impression that he's waiting there to freeze to death basically that he's just decided this you first start seeing him. Shiver, and then he just takes off all of his clothing is trying to speed that process along. He also is remembering fragments little scenes from his childhood that we see. So we see some more David through and Toni Collette right moments from his childhood and he seems to be having this kind of emotional breakdown or crisis of some kind. So he's in the car he's got naked and then you see through the windshield like. It's being projected there. This TULSI. Town ad from the fifties of black and white sort of animated. Add about the queen of Tulsi town ice cream, kind of fantasy land, brilliant piece of animation by the way that has a lot of strange scary details in it like the moment when the little ice cream man sort of forms from the ground and then the yes the Queen of Chelsea town steps on him and squashes and. Yeah, it's an amazing thing but then there's this animated pig I think comes from the ad begins talking to the janitor and encourages him to sort of follow it follow me or something like that gender if it's totally naked follows the animated pig back into the. High School and as they go, the pig has this conversation about. A-. sensually. I guess I should say also that this is dripping blood it's barely being eaten by maggots. Yeah. He's. He is one of the Maggot pigs right? I mean he is just that he says, Hey, I'm a I'm a pig being eaten by maggots it is what it is. Yeah somebody's gotta be a pig even by maggots or whatever you know which I think is sort of somebody's gotta be a high. School janitor. You have a shot of this naked elderly janitor falling an animated pig down high school hallway and the pigs or something like let's get dressed and then there's a smash got. To. High School Auditorium where the Oklahoma said it's still basically up there, but there's also a Nobel prize, Putin and. Jake. Not The janitor but jake is standing behind it wearing a Tuxedo old age makeup but bad high school old age make right and this is this is key because we saw a good old age in earlier in the movie on Tony Good Character in David dulas character, and suddenly as you say, it's this clearly amateur level high school make up with big dark creases for for wrinkles, etc which not only Jacobs wearing but everyone in the audience is wearing including all the characters we've seen his mother, his father. Jessie. Buckley even the ice cream girls there. Yes and he gives them the speech from a beautiful mind. which verbatim yeah. purveyed them. Oh, wow, I hadn't seen that movie in so long that I got the reference but not that it was actually lifted. Yep. Also on that shelf in the bedroom is a dvd of a beautiful mind. The speech that he gives us is verbatim for Mac, and it's a the speech about how love is the most important mathematical. Equation of the John Nash from from that movie, I didn't look to see if it was cut the same way, but it has that sort of stuff one-star song about love that cuts. Jessie. Buckley Old Jessie Buckley sitting in the audience of the Nobel. Prize. Ceremony. With tears in her eyes and so on. It's Maria that is gender is trying to kind of imagine what it would have been like if you had a long and successful unhappy life because that's kind of alien to him. To stage that scene is brain goes to. The. End of a beautiful mind which is seeing recently or or or likes very much. I would guess, right? He's kind of making a mash up of my beautiful mind in Oklahoma. That have been meaningful to him and making it into his ideal life, and if you go to your theory that this whole thing is figment of the janitors imagination, this would be his dying fantasy, right? Exactly. Yeah. This is in thinking as he's sort of. Bruising into death or in the. Throat it's implantable. Whatever's happening to him into this one mind is not is the story that he's crafts Kinda fallen apart let's say Jake in old age makeup seems lonely room from Oklahoma, which is a song some by judge for high who is the character in the dream La? Stabs the other love her to death and it's a song specifically about imagine your life where the lines something like all the things that I wished for turn out how I want them to be. It's not the movie, but it was in the it was in the original musical so he sings a song about imagining. A life in which he was happy when she's just on yeah I wasn't familiar with that song not having seen the stage musical Oklahoma only the movie and I thought it had been written by Charlie Kaufman as a as a fantasy edition to the to the cast album of Oklahoma because suits the themes of this movie and in General Kaufman's obsession. So completely. It's very authentic. addition. In the musical because it wasn't it, but it was not in the movie that's was only use in. Okay. So he finishes singing song, and then he gets a standing ovation from the audience and then there's a shot of him standing up. He's wearing the beautiful mind costume White Guy. Wearing a Nobel prize metal in that really really slowly. that shot fades to blue over the sound of all this Waza who's getting first performance and that blue then kinda fades in on a shot at the high school. The next morning sky are buried under snow. But it is not the pickup truck genders driving it. It appears to be from the shape, the carpet All right. So Matt since I keep making you channel this pragmatic robot who has sort of logical shambling. I feel like obviously both of us would agree that this movie doesn't want all those questions to be answered. Right it wants there to be a lot of open interpretations. It wants to be enigmatic and mysterious and I love that about it but I still can't help asking a question about the very last shot that we see after that fade to blue and that becomes the blue sky of the next day right and and we see the parking lot with this shape of a car underneath snow. What do you think for pragmatic point of robot view is happening in that car I mean it's clearly the car of Jesse Plymouth and Jessie. Buckley it's not shaped like the pickup truck of the janitor. So even if they were figments of his imagination there does seem to be some material reality of something that happened in that car the night before. So when you picture, you know getting a squeegee and squeezing off the window windshield of that car are there to frozen bodies inside or there one frozen body? Is there no one? Are there just to Oreo burs I guess those got thrown away but like what do you see as being the code to this movie if there were one? I think it's that some piece of this story that got. Pragmatic robot explanation that some piece of the story has bled into reality that of the general leaves, pickup truck and. Dies or killed himself freeze its death whatever happens to him in the inside the school I think we can assume it's not great end but. In the morning, his car's been replaced with the car from his story. I mean, I, think it's just a gesture towards. Magic earlier or inexplicable way that stories complete into. Its this Meta textual moment. Right where something that seems like it was a fantasy actually reveals itself is true which reminds me of this. I don't think I've ever told you about this but all the time that I watched wizard of Oz growing up I always had this belief that at the very end of the movie when it goes back to black and white and she wakes up in her own bed and you know the farmhands are all there and everything that after she says, there's no place like home that the camera tilts down to below the bed and below the bed or the ruby shoes, and only the ruby shoes are in color everything else is still in black and white. There was some period where I didn't see that movie for many years because you know it was before DVD's or whatever, and then when I saw it again as an adult or maybe a teenager I, remember being shocked at the reviews weren't under the bed that was just something that I had imagined into the movie that I thought should be there because it would prove that there was some reality to her visit to is somewhat immaterial but maybe that's kind of the. The place at the end right I think anyway that's my my take on it. I just have to tell you that One thing that might my mother's was about story? Yes which is that she you know they used to run it on TV every year I think around Thanksgiving or whatever anyway had black and white TV and she'd never seen on film but she loved the movie and watch it every year every year every year and had been told that it was in color. And then finally one year they went over to another family's house where they had a color TV and the movie started up, and of course, it opens in black and white and. She just started crying crying crying. Terribly wrong and it wasn't in color engine waiting for years to see. But then she must have been so thrilled when the color kicked in, they explained it to her and then it happened or whatever initial reaction to the open shots was just extreme. Shouted distress. Swedish right about that. All is that is basically explanation for the car at the end, right? It's the remnant of mystery from. The pragmatic can't explain. Yeah I think. So I mean I think that's the way I read it. All, right. Well, that's our show. Thank you so much that was one of my favorite spoilers I've done in a while because that movie has actual riddles entangle and it was really fun doing. Was a blast you're having. Let's do it again very soon. I should mention that you wrote a piece on the book and the movie and comparing contrasting some of the things about them, which should be fun sleet and readable by time you're listening to this podcast. So if you want to read some more of Matt Decimal. Goad browbeaten look for our producer today was Rosemary Belsen cleese always subscribe to the show and you can request an item as well. If you want to bring other people's attention to the spoiler special and if you have ideas a future movies or TV shows or even podcast that you would like us to spoil, you can write us at spoilers at slate dot com. Methodism I'm Dana Stevens thanks so much listening. Special. This episode of the slate spoiler special was brought to you by ore-ida America's favorite FRY. When you're picky kids caused dinnertime dilemmas don't despair instead used potato pay. It's simple when your kids balk at Broccoli or Chafe at charred offer a bribe, they eat their Greens and you serve them a helping of delicious or fries go to try potato pay dot. com. And learn how to bribe your kids with to the golden crispy fries kids love.
The Art of Self-Defense (Featuring Josh Bell)
"<music> all right welcome to another episode of piecing together the podcast we take a look at a new movie and try to figure out what movies inspired it and today on the show. We're doing one net. I didn't think we'd be covering but went saw it loved it and it was like we gotta Fit something in 'cause this movie is just too good to really pass up. We're talking about the art of self defense from writer Director Riley Stern and starring Jesse Eisenberg as a guy a mild mannered guy who <hes> he gets beat up after work one day and his life is Kinda falling apart and he decided to take up karate and things go ahead very strange dark directions from there <hes> with me to talk about it is film critic. Josh Bell from the other podcasts that I produce awesome movie year and we've got a great conversation for you guys lots of lots degree puzzle pieces and <hes> like I said you should go watch this movie because it is a great one so before we get into that conversation on remind you as always to make sure you're a subscribed appeasing it together and your podcast App of choice and you can also follow us on social media ATP piecing pod so hey. Why don't we just get into this one or I'm in? This is the third of three episodes this week. That's a lot of piecing together and if you've been listening to all these than you've heard my opening spill a lot so let's just get into it <music> all right so back with us today. We've got Josh Bell Josh how you doing man. I'm doing very well. How are you? I'm all right. I'm I I'm on a Quentin Tarantino kick right now but first before we get to that movie we're going to talk about the artist self defense. We are talking about Quentin Tarantino Swan. Mike come up yeah. It's very possible so so this one I posted on twitter that maybe we should try hi to make an episode on this happened in you message me and said Hey I'd do it. Yeah I jumped on it because I really liked this movie and I had been looking forward to it for a while. I liked the directors first movie of faults which I did not see and it's which is different this movie he is a lot more comedic and multi a lot more serious but very very well acted and <hes> so yeah I was looking forward to seeing this and I had gotten a screener in advance because I wanted to be able to talk about it on on my T._v.. Segment and give it a bit of a plug and I really liked it. I mean I know we maybe usually wait until the end to say but I will say that that I like this movie quite a bit. It's one of my top ten movies of the year at this point and I was happy that you had seen it because I'm not sure how much promotion it's getting yeah. I was actually surprised at a guy like as wider releases. It seems to have yeah. It's maybe not warranting that in terms of its office unfortunately Oh yeah yeah. I don't know if people know what to make something like this but obviously people I guess liked it though right. It's it's something that the people who are interested in this kind of thing I think will really like it is surprising to me that it got a five hundred plus screen really whatever including three theaters here in Vegas glad when it happens though yeah aid easy for me to see there you go yeah. I watched it at home but we're there people in the theater. When you went there was and I will say they they were into it? I mean there was a lot of laughter at all of the like the weirdest most awkward parts people were into it and like really laughing so hopefully it gets a little word of mouth. I guess we'll see after this week. Yeah I hope so too. I'm glad to hear that that that people are going to the theater to see movies like this. I definitely I went to see wild rose a week or so ago and almost my friend and I were almost the only one other person who showed up right as it started yeah but <hes> Jesse Buckley's biggest family just in the corner there yeah Sharon something like that but that's more of what I expect when going to see movies like that that's good to hear so before we get into puzzle pieces and important question. Did you do karate as a kid I did did not the least athletic person in the world and karate was not my thing I think my parents did force me to do some athletic activities and I did not choose karate. I remember my younger brother did karate when he was a kid. I remember by that time. I was like a teenager and I remember having to get dragged to wait for him at his karate lessons when we lived in southern California and one of his karate classmates was Frankie Valley's son that is my memory of childhood. Karate is my mom pointing out Frankie Valli sitting waiting for his son to finish karate class. That's pretty cool. I liked that story yeah. I think my mom forced me to do it for a couple years. I Never Vermeille to pass wait built so I guess not even the yellow belt now. No no that's sad I was. I was as unathletic as humanly break aboard. I did breakable okay my mom's still has its at her house so so <hes> let's jump in reverse puzzle piece well. My first one is probably the most obvious one I've seen referenced in many many reviews of this movie but which I think is accurate is fight club and AH in addition to being accurate. I think it's also one of my absolute favorite movies and I think seen comparisons to fight club before I watched this movie was one thing that made me think oh I wanna see this shores. I love fight club and I like that kind of satire and the the deconstruction of masculinity in what needs to quote unquote real man. I think fight club did an amazing job of that and of course the thing with fight club is that a lot of people who saw fight club took it at face value of course was not the attention and this movie is a lot more comedic than fight club. I think it would be hard to come away from this movie thinking that it is pro se right Alexander Novalis character whereas you could come out to fight club in misconstrue that it is trying trying to endorse the antics of project mayhem and Edward Norton Brad Pitt in that movie I feel accent say probably watched fight club and loved it and all the wrong reasons absolutely you could yeah you could see this movie as in a way AH response not only to fight club but to the people who loved Fight Club and took fight club way too seriously but I didn't fight club is brilliant in the way that it satirizes and also sympathizes with these men who feel lost and don't know how to be men and latch onto the wrong thing this expression of violence as a way to take back their power in their individuality and I think art of self defense does the same thing in that Jesse Eisenberg's character latches onto the wrong thing that he reaches out for anything that can make him feel like quote a man or and finds this very misguided thing that ends up being taken away too far and the colts of you WanNa call it a colts shore. They are now yeah sense as called the definitely has a lot of similarities to project mayhem in the way that they're attacking the people in order to sort of bring them out of their shells and move to them that they need to step up and and be a man and things get way more out of hand in Fight Club than they do here but I think it's clearly a major major. If not the number one influence on this movie absolutely and I also I love that everybody massage each other after their fight centuries yes but no absolutely fight club is of course on my list as well and yeah I think all the things that you're just saying about about masculinity and all that and misplacing what what is GonNa make you better or a better man and all that and then also also on a surface level the just the hierarchy in the rules and all that kind of stuff. I mean there are one step away from sayings rule number. One you know talk about Fight Club. You know yeah there's so much I think in this movie that's influenced by that. Yeah I think I even saw one review at made that specific like the first rule of night classes that you don't talk about Nightline Nice Nice. I'll go with my next puzzle piece which is another one that I've heard mentioned before and it was the first thing I thought when I saw the trailers which is Napoleon dynamite which is a movie that I don't think this ended up being quite as much like as I thought it would be. It certainly goes was in darker directions certainly has more more to say like we're just talking about all that stuff with toxic masculinity and all that but they're still just so much awkward weirdness so many weird characters and a search like a strange way of talking. Everybody just talks to each other very odd ways that it just almost feels like a bad dream in a way watching them communicate with each other. Yeah I also saw Napoleon voting dynamite referenced in a lot of articles reviews and I kind of was unsure of whether that seemed right to me but it's been a long time I saw Napoleon dynamite and thinking about it as you're talking about it. Certainly that very stilted almost overly overly formal way of speaking yeah is a big thing and I'm now remembering as Napoleon dynamite his brother or his cousin that he lives with the uncle re. Oh well yeah Uncle Rico is the one that I thought was the closest to that kind kind of thing. Yeah Yeah Yeah but there's definitely a character is. I think it's John Greece's character. Maybe who's very obsessed with proving his own Macho nece when he's clearly the farthest from Mongo that you could possibly imagine my favorite line from that movie is one that nobody ever really seems to quote but it's I want you WanNa bet I could throw a football over them. They're mountains just incredible yeah. I think maybe I it would be worth looking back at them. Because I think the ridiculous pop culture sort of saturation of that movie turned it into this object of annoyance very quickly and of course jared has never really made a movie afterwards well. I'M GONNA go on record good right now and suggest it for two thousand four classic on awesome movie. That is a suggestion certainly a cold movie and yeah. Maybe something that's worth another. So what are you for your next puzzle all right well my next puzzle piece. This is the karate kid and we talked about kids doing karate and I think more than just the fact that takes place in a Dojo and we do see a few glimpses of classes with younger students not really. Very relevant to the plot of this movie but clearly in addition to their illegal murder activities they're also teaching kids karate also teaching kids how to murder it seemed like at least in that one scene tour did but more than that I think the idea of the sort of ego maniacal sense say and the Doj Oh that exists to crush its enemies is very much something that you see in the Cobra Kai in karate kid and and of course there the villains in the in credit kid and and in a way that that mentality is also the villainous mentality here as well the yeah that martial arts should be used to destroy your enemies and destroy Oy the weakness within and things like that which of course is the opposite of what Mr Biaggi would teach from yagi would not approve of sense say yeah yeah. I think maybe the girl will turn into more of them. Yagi like we can only hope. Let's hope so for sure her yeah. I unfortunately my eighties. Credentials are about to be smashed that I haven't seen the karate kid many like literally since I was a child but but yeah I mean of course it's such a classic of the karate. Were so you know what I mean. It's just such a huge impact. I think on so many people right and I one thing that I haven't seen that I wonder I think from what I've read about it sort of calls into question that idea idea what I just said about the Cobra Kai is the Kobe TV series where they're sort of the heroes and I think they've shifted maybe their approach as opposed to when they were fighting Daniel son but I've heard great things about it when I they should watch the movies again I but <hes> I've actually never seen I think any of the sequels although I did see the Jaden Smith Jackie Chan remake ooh fortunately let's talk about that for a while not so I'll go with my next one which is the Martin Scorsese film taxi driver and Jesse Eisenberg's character just going from now more of a mild mannered guy to just life just going incomplete crazy direction and you know lately. We've been seeing this kind of a story being used many times from I reformed and you're I've never really here and it's you know it's a great. It's a great story. You know structure to put something on to put a character into the situation where they're just going deeper and deeper are and kind of just cracking along the way yeah. I wonder if there's some political social thing in the air right now that that makes those stories a popular topic I think probably is yeah and I think it's interesting too because you can take these stories in different directions. I mean in something like like taxi driver or even in. You're never really here. That character character goes off the deep end and just Kinda keeps going off the deep end until certain point their past any redemption or you can get something like this movie where at a certain point the character realizes that they're going off the deep end yeah yes ask themselves back absolutely definitely puts a nice little spin on it something. That's a little more hopeful in its own little weird way you know right. It's weird to call this movie hopeful with double murder xactly putting his finger finger in the guys skull but it is weirdly hopeful. Yes it is we can transcend this toxic masculine culture again next so my next pick is. I don't feel at home in this world anymore. Making they can Blair's Netflix exclusive that also was the winner at Sundance. I think two years ago and it's a similar story about a kind of timid put upon person who is the victim of a crime and decides sites to fight back in an incredibly misguided disastrous way and in that case it's Melanie Linski is the main character who is the one who's victimized and so obviously that's not a comment on masculinity but she ends up teaming up with Elijah Woods character. Who is this kind of weird loaner guy who's disturbingly eager to meet out violence on people on behalf of his neighbor who has been burglarized sure and it all ends in a very violent way but the idea of things kind of getting out of hand where they just try to do one thing to take back the power power the feeling of being in control of their lives and it leads to another thing in another thing in another thing and before you know it there's dead people <hes> and things that you can't take back and I think that is what's happening here too and also the dark humor of it that moves your is is funny which makes the horrifying violence in a way all that much more horrifying because you're kind of laughing and then you're choking on it yeah yeah I forgot about that movie back when I was still catching most Netflix <hes> yeah no that was great and yeah definitely that dark humor feeling mixed with the kind of revenge but like you know just vigilante like yeah yeah? I think that movie is one of the best asked if not the best net flicks original production sure if you I don't know if it qualifies because it was it was it financed by all the the question of whether they produced it or they picked it up but it is a netflix original shore and it's absolutely one of the best right on art. I'm going to go my next one which is kind of a bit of a silly one but based on the the scene before <hes> Jesse Eisenberg's character starts heading down his journey into the world of karate <hes> he goes and tries to buy a gun and he's told that there's a waiting period enter my to me of the simpsons the cartridge family episode where homer tries to buy a gun and the clerk tells them we'll actually there's a waiting period. You're going to have to wait a week to get the Ghani's like if I if I had that gun right now I would kill you just reminded me of just the ridiculousness of just gun culture and it's very simple comparison right there but I just totally early reminded me of it. Yeah I think that's meant to be with what is the line in this movie is. You have to wait so that if you're really angry at someone you can't go kill them right away. You have to do it three days from now. Exactly <hes> yeah this movie kind of a weird way because Sensei is so anti-gun that guns Kinda Save the day and here it is very strange way yeah but but certainly that scene in the gun story is very much and that that clerk is so oh absurdly ridiculous later on when he gets the phone call telling him he's passed his background. Check and clerk is dismayed that he might instead by a night was great. You're not having a kid right that is I wonder that might be one of the most one of the funniest bits the most obviously humorous comedic bits in this movie back and forth where that yeah that's seen very funny. It's great so what do you guys next <hes> well. My next one is for such an obscure movie one that I actually I think brought up on the last <hes> episode that we had or one of the recent ones and that is the Jesse Eisenberg film the double <hes> in which Jesse Eisenberg plays two people who look exactly the same and the dynamic in that movie is that one Jesse Eisenberg is very similar to this movie this kind of shy put upon never she office worker who let's everyone walk all over him and into the other Jesse Eisenberg is the kind of flipside version. WHO's the confident Kinda mean take charge doesn't listen to what people say version of the character who comes in and in that movie movie because there are two different people he kind of steam rolls over the other meeker Jesse Eisenberg and gets whatever gets the girl that he was after and things like that but in a weird way this movie has two versions of this the character sure and the version that's been molded by sensation kind of steam rolls over the original version and gets rid of his affection for his dog and gets rid of his previous interests in learning French yeah changes into a whole new person yeah we see them in all of the same situations just going back but now as kind of an asshole and just totally obsessed with his new <hes> newfound manliness rate and I think <hes> that movie in the double it's it's is almost it's like that but split into different people and I had a few options because I feel like Jesse Eisenberg even though some of the reviews I read this said Oh? This is a different kind of role for him but I feel like he's played the like Nerd sociopath yeah multiple time now in addition to the double I mean you talk about and maybe this will come up by you know the social network or even Batman versus Superman where he takes that nerd persona and turns it around and makes it into the the NERD <music> as evil guy sure sure well you know and that's funny. I kinda just had no. It wasn't a puzzle piece per se but since you're bringing that up bring that up right now I feel like this movie is just so perfectly possibly even inspired by him his just kind of persona as an actor you know and I mean I almost wonder if Riley stearns like ever could have had anybody else in mind for this. It just seems so perfectly Jesse Eisenberg movie right yeah the the cliche would be to say that also Michael Era could start next to be similar and Michael. Sarah has done a little bit of that toxic nerd kind of character but I feel like Jesse Eisenberg has really owned wound that has really been able to tap into that dark side of this what we usually consider an innocuous kind of character sure right on yeah and to the puzzle piece. The double still haven't seen it but it's a it's a decent movie. I feel like it's maybe not as good a movie as the amount of attention I've given but it is an interesting and very good performance from Jesse Eisenberg of course right on well. I'll I'll go with my next. One which is a dark comedy from Jody Hill called observe in report. which is you know very different from this movie? Not any of this stuff is exactly happening but I just feel generally speaking the tone of I think these are like exact tone wise matches. I think that movie which has come up quite a few times on this show. I think it's just a a great little weird dark comedy which is weird. Weird people doing awful things. You know I just feel like the tone of it is just a perfect example of something else that that deals with characters in situations like this yeah that character certainly who is also this guy who feels powerless and goes way too far in the other direction examiner to feel powerful yeah yeah. I'm really not a jody hill slash Danny McBride Fan all and I didn't know I thought I wonder if you were going to bring up there karate movie the foot fist way. It's Kinda come in a little okay. Well sorry I know it's all I've seen observant report. I've actually not seen the way I thought Oh this is clearly something that is relevant so hopefully fleet will come up sure absolutely I can't say anything. I'll stop talking about it. Yeah observing report I think is maybe they're most dark in violent work although I guess vice principals got kind of darkened Erkin violent Oh my God I never watched house like halfway through the first season. People didn't like that show. I love that show like I said I'm not any of their stuff that I've seen has only been out of professional obligation not at all a fan of their the deal for me. It's not for me. I can see how it would be relevant sure well. What do you next well? My next one is <hes> the kind of thing that we sometimes say where it's probably couldn't actually be an influence because most likely it was being produced at the same time but it made me think of this movie a lot especially because of sense as obsession with metal that is the Norwegian region black metal bio-pic lords of chaos which came out earlier this year and that's a true story about the band mayhem in the late eighties and early nineties <hes> but it is is again about these nerdy kind of loser dudes who latch onto something that makes them feel powerful and in that case it's black metal but also Satan worship and the idea of being against organized religion and against any kind of expression of human compassion almost yeah and they take it from something fun and silly where they're just playing music and they're painting their faces yeah and it becomes very dark and very violent and this is a true story where these people eventually ended up not only burning down churches but murdering and one who is <hes> spent a lot of time in prison so you can see how this does reflect reality and maybe this movie is heightened and it silly and no this kind of exact thing would not ever really happen but those feelings are real and they can be taken to that extreme and I think the stereotype of heavy metal is this masculine Manley music which I mean and I'm a longtime heavy metal fan. I just think it's so funny to see it use that way because terse so many nerds love heavy metal and really in its in its most ridiculous form is such a nerdy thing it is told her into and I think this movie uses it well because it is is more than like a real expression of Manley manliness. Its the nerds idea of what being Manley that's really. That's a great point so yeah and again I say that as a big metal fan and with lots of affection for heavy metal music sure as long as it doesn't lead to actual murder as lords of chaos well sometimes I could be extra cool but yeah I think you're probably but yeah and carrying Kokin who plays the main character in that movie also has this kind of nerd rage by going for him that is actually not seen chaos and I forgot about I heard about in sounded great and then I just kind of forgot about it. I should watch that it's an interesting movie. I felt like it was a little muddled. In its approach it also I think like like this movie. It tries to have comedic bits where you laugh at these guys for how absurd they are for taking this stuff seriously but then because it is in fact a true story of people being murdered it has to be taken seriously and it doesn't quite get that connection right but it's interesting film right on my ex puzzle piece we were just talking about it is the fist foot put fish way which I also have not seen actually okay. Yes a lot to both yeah but I mean come on. I mean how can you not don't make that comparison and I could have just thrown out of the way back then when you brought it up but I was like just save it and say it myself but I only have one other after this so why not but yeah no. I haven't seen it but I mean this movie. He does have a lot of that. Jodi Hill dark comedy kind of vibe in Danny McBride kind of just a real just asshole kind of character you know and is a lot like Censeo. What sense is doing right? Yeah I mean it's hard for me to say much about it <hes> <music> but having seen their other stuff I can absolutely see that tone wise being similar and certainly the karate Sensei who takes himself way too seriously is a good comedic yeah. There's a lot of ground onto cover there. That's one of those movies that's like been at the top of my list for like what a decade now. I need to watch that fun movie Yeah Yeah. Maybe we'll watch it this weekend. There you go insert your opinions before we post them. Redo my puzzle piece next my next pick is Mike Judges Office space. I was thinking about that yeah and I picked off space but really Mike Judge in general like is a great satirist of dudes dudes who take themselves to seriously yeah and office space in particular of course is about this guy who works this generic office job much like Jesse Eisenberg's character does in the art of self defense. We get the idea he some sort of accounting guy I but there's never really any sense of what his company does or what even he does for the company just this kind of generic cubicle farm or whatever and that very much is like office space and the character Dr who feels emasculated by being stuck in this environment sure <hes> and there's the sort of glorification of physical Labor in that movie eventually the way to to escape the feeling of being emasculated he becomes comes. What is our construction worker? Yeah which I think in office space is regarded as like a positive. We're supposed to like that character and we're supposed to feel happy for him that he's gotten there but I do think my judge has that perspective of mocking dudes who feel like they need to grasp onto something to feel masculine I mean Beavis and butthead their whole existence is based on the idea of feeling cool and feeling Manley talking chicks that they're going to bang that has never going to happen and going back to heavy metal what do Beavis and butthead love they love heavy metal and Silicon Valley has a lot of that nerd rage stuff thomas middle ditches another actor actor who I think could have pulled off this. Your care could've absolutely and yeah I I was GONNA say Silicon Valley was like where I was going when I was thinking of Mike Judge absolutely and then also should be mentioned that Dietrich Baiter who's is in office space was the sense character in Napoleon dynamite so much about Napoleon dynamite. I remember there being sent. Say Yeah absolutely hilarious but you know I think absolutely my judges of characters like his whole kind of worldview. This could very well come from that same kind of worldview yeah yeah and my judge. I don't think ever gets to the level of violence that this movie gets to know. Maybe on a on a printer support there. Is there a murder in extract. I'm trying to remember extracts the only movie of his I didn't really like yeah and I didn't really like it either but I try to recall if there might have been a murderer just a failed murder plot I. I can't recall now well. I only got one more puzzle piece. I only have one more okay perfect and this kind of goes along with the Napoleon dynamite and things like that <hes> just weird characters and all that and it's just kind of in general films of Wes Anderson. I wish I know you're not a fan of but that doesn't mean yeah but no just these just very strange characters again like are saying just really an otherworldly kind of <hes> interactions between them and where it just just it just doesn't seem normal the way people seem to talk to each other and now all was Anderson's. <hes> movies are that way but certainly currently there are scenes within them and certain interactions between certain characters where <hes> things are just spoken in just such strange cadence in way the way that the dialogue is written and everything just so formal and everything <hes>. I think there's a lot of that wes Anderson feel yeah. I can see that I mean and I think it's also we talk about a lot of these filmmakers and it's taking that sort of comedic or whimsical tone and then adding being this extra level of violence to it sure whether it's Wes Anderson or Mike Judge Jody Hill pushing it in a further dark violent direction sure more so than those filmmakers acres do necessarily somewhat related to this puzzle piece but more just a general thought is there was a part in there when they're talking about the different colored belts and what they mean and then they mentioned that it's not really uniform among Aldo Joe's and it just kind of makes it completely pointless and I just thought that was just so great like which is completely une does it and like just adds to the ridiculousness of that. I just thought that's one of my favorite parts arts. Yeah that is the idea of this this hierarchy that is completely point made up irrelevant but they are become so obsessed with it. Yeah I think in that seem to the character says it's different and other places but then he also assures Jesse Eisenberg at our way of doing it is the best somehow the order of colors could better or worse in in different instances so funny yeah so ridiculous. What's your what's your last one so my last one was when I was kind of debating whether weather I really feel confident about but I'd seen again in a lot of reviews dimensions of Your go-slow anthem OHS and his films and the one I was going to mention his dog tooth because I feel like some of his other films have this supernatural ish element that just really does not apply here now but dog tooth is one where it doesn't have that and it also is very much about creating this artificial hierarchy of things sure and in that movie it's? A family and the way that they've evolved all of this ritualistic behavior and there's a whole language thing there about this these parents are father in particular who's taught his grown children all of these words having different meanings from what they really mean but just the idea of this mnay like mega low maniacal leader who holds sway over people and has created this kind of closed system which they all pledged their our allegiance to <hes> and then in general sense like we were talking about with Napoleon dynamite the kind of stilted way characters talk to each other the overly formal dialogue the way that the emotions seem kind of drained from these Interactions Wins News. That's very relevant I mean it's hard to tell as much in in like dog tooth for example which is in Greek and if you don't speak Greek it's harder to get the nuances of voice but certainly in his English language movies killing at sacred dear badly the and in the lobster as well can really get that sense of the way that the character speak to each other and how it sounds like they're reading some sort of prepared speech every time they talk to each other so I'm glad you brought goes up killing the sacred. There was like in the back of my mind and I just I never thought to write it down but that is like a perfect one for that the way they talk. I would say that's like the closest thing almost yeah so and and I think this movie like a lot a lot of the stuff. That's come up here. I'm like I'm not really that into. I'm not really a big yorgos Lantos fan especially those overly stilted films. I'm not a big Napoleon dynamite fan big. Wes Anderson Fan Judy Hill Fan. I really liked this movie. It take some of those elements in does something with it that I find more effective sure absolutely well. Let's do the finish puzzle getting any closing thoughts. We've got fight club Napoleon dynamite the karate kid taxi driver. I don't feel at home in this world anymore. The Simpsons the cartridge family episode the Double Observed Report Lords of chaos the foot fist way office space. Wes Yes Anderson Films Dog Tooth and I'm GONNA throw in the killing of the sacred dear as well so got any closing thoughts on this one Josh I liked it. I mean as I've been saying. I think it's really good. I hope more people will see it. I hope Riley stearns earns will get a chance to make more interesting weird movies Alexandra Nevada. We talked about Jesse Eisenberg a whole lot yeah but I'll Sandra Nevada is great. Oh I'm saying so funny and I feel like he's one of those actors that he's he's always sort of like the third person in some movie that you're not very memorable. Yeah <hes> and this is the best thing I've ever seen from him. I would say he is so good in this and just just such a just a maniac yeah I I. I could talk about him for a lot longer but I mean yeah just suffice to say he's great. Yes so good in this he is he's very good and imaging boots who I like. A lot is very good here as I think literally literally the only woman onscreen in this entire movie Oh yeah absolutely yeah so yeah I. I don't know I thoroughly enjoyed it. That's that's all I have to say and I would say checkout faults also great performances Leland orser our Mary Elizabeth winstead another excellent movie. Oh yeah he used to be married to her the direct oh did he. I didn't know that thing so right on well yeah. I think that about does it. Josh got any other movie U._S.. Reasonably like to recommend I am going to recommend <hes> Lynch Shelton's sort of trust starring Marc Maron and Jillian Bell and Michaela Watkins of very fun oddball sort of comedy slash caper kind of thing heavily improvised which is out on V._O._D.. Right now and it's a great showcase for Marc Maron as an actor yeah which I think he's been demonstrating more learn more lately watch glow on that flakes. He's really good on that that he's got a lot of depth as a as an actor not just as a comedian and a podcast her but he's great in that movie and I love Lynn Shelton. I feel like she's a really talented interesting filmmaker and this is her return to something more improvised after a lot of movies that were more tightly scripted and then I like those movies to lag as and outside in I think those are really good movies but if you saw Hump Day or your sister sister her earlier and a looser movies this is more in that vein although it's more comedic really than anything that she's done before it's funny. It's got a great weird performance from Toby hus- as a character named Hog Jaws so yeah. I think it's a lot of fun checkout checkout sort of trust on various V._O._D.. Platforms Michaela Watkins's in a two or she's great yeah. I'm going to have to watch that yeah. It's Jillian Bell Las Vegas Native Jillian Bell Yeah very good in it as well right on well. What do you get the plug today Josh well? We have the awesome movie your podcast produced by the wonderful David Roseanne Co hosted by me and Jason Harris and we're in the midst of our first season about the films of one thousand nine hundred four. We've talked about <hes> well. We mentioned Quentin. Tarantino didn't come up after all he did not but now we can talk about them. We can our latest awesome movie your episode episode on Tarantino's Pulp Fiction. We've talked about clerks. We've talked about the lion king. We've talked about north and there's a lot of cool stuff yet to come for awesome movie years so find that on all your podcast subscription places or awesome movie year Dot Com and and <hes> yeah please listen and stay tuned for that Napoleon dynamite episode. I make them do. Hey I'm Danny and I'm jazz and together. We are the feature podcast where we talk about movies and everyday life we should listen to us on stitcher soundcloud Google play in I tunes podcast network and be sure to follow us on social media at twitter instagram at the a feature show and facebook. It's the feature show with backslash Danny and jazz alright that does it for today's episode of piecing it together. Thank you Josh Bell for being here. Make sure to go check out the most recent episode of awesome move year on pulp fiction. It's a good one and <hes> yeah. I thank you all for listening to the show. Seriously <hes> people have been really getting in touch and letting me know that they're really loving this. This show and I really appreciate that so much. If you've been listening and WanNa let me know what you think of it you know you could just email me directly by David Rosen gmail.com or tweet at us at piecing pod or of course go right and review us on Apple. Oh podcasts five stars would be amazing. We love that you're out there listening and definitely thank you and by the way like I said at the top of the show this was a three episode week which is going to be a rare thing. We're not going to be doing that. Any episodes on a regular basis even to is more than I ever planned on but that being said if you haven't yet go check out our wild rose episode that came out on Wednesday and the special interview episode I did with Scott Evans from the Sandlot so that is a fun episode as well so make sure to check those out and lots of other episodes of course as well seventy seven now seventy seven plus a bunch of bonuses and specials and all that stuff and of course lots more coming your way we actually have got. I think we are like four or five in the can right now and we are in the process of recording to Quentin Tarantino episodes this weekend one on his new movie once upon a time in Hollywood and one. That's like a special ranking of all his movies so lots lots of podcasts come in your way you can also join our facebook group popcorn and puzzle pieces where we talk about all these movies and movies that are coming out and share movie memes and all that kind of stuff off and no trolls allowed none of the kind of people you would see it that dough joe in the art of self defense none of those people would ever be allowed in popcorn puzzle pieces so you WanNa come talk movies with cool people. Come join the group on facebook so let's close this thing out with the piece of music like we always do and as since as says you should only be listening to heavy metal so let's listen to a really heavy track of mine. This is burn out from my album head like fire air. Enjoy it and we'll be back next week with more piecing together. Yeah took yeah <music> <music> breath.
Jessie Buckley Seeks The Spotlight In 'Wild Rose'
"Yeah. Broadcast center at KPC this is the frame. I'm Steven Cuevas spilling in for John horn on today's show, summertime ain't so easy for big budget movie releases like men in black international. But is there more going on than just sequel fatigue? Then I receive an actress Jessie Buckley goes country and Scottish and her new film, wild rose had no relationship to country music at all four star to this. And I thought I was I don't know my peripheral was that it was a bit lacked damn. And will meet the singer known as to Cuban James Brown all that coming up on the frame. KABC podcasts are supported by HBO, presenting game of thrones critics have hailed the final season as TV's greatest show of all time and irritating. Emmy eligible for outstanding drama series and all other categories. Welcome to the frame. I'm Steven Cuevas filling in for John horn by weekends and men in black international was hardly in the black box office returns for the latest installment of the franchise were disappointing to say the least as we're critic reviews earlier today, we reached Bloomberg's Lucas Shah, who told me international isn't the only big budget sequel that's got a case of the summertime. Boxoffice blues is the it is the latest in three or four different sequels that we've seen over the past month that have not done so well minute black international gross less than thirty million dollars in North America, and about half of what all the previous men in black movies at open to it. Did alright internationally? So it's. Worldwide. Total is is north of hundred million dollars, but given the budget on this movie, and what it costs to market, it, most people would ask to me, probably gonna gross lease four hundred million dollars even break. Even this is just based on first week in a box office. Some of the foreign returns, isn't it a little too premature to call it a box office bomb. There are a lot of movies that underperform in the US and Canada and then have legs overseas. And so, you know, the end of eking out a lot more than you would have thought the First Pacific rim movie, is one that comes to mind. I remember it, you know, it was really expensive and had all these visual effects, it, didn't it did, okay in the US? But then in particular so well, in China that successful enough that they actually made a sequel to it. So it's possible that that's the case here, but really the best case for this movie. Is that like it ekes out? You know, maybe break, even it's probably it's, it's certainly not going to be a successful movie, and look, it's it's coming out in the. Middle of summer. So this upcoming weekend. I believe we have toys twenty four which we all know is going to be a huge hit and not long after that. I think you've got both a new Spiderman movie and eventually in the summer, we've got Lion King. So it's just got a lot of competition, which makes it harder. Also, to sustain that opening well, despite its underperformance at the box office, how is men in black international doing critically with both movie critics. And with audiences very, very, very poorly, the scores on most aggregate, metacritic and rotten tomato are very low. The audience score on that is a bit higher audiences tend to, to be less discerning. But still not really high. It's not one of those cases. Sometimes he'll have a movie that gets like twenty or thirty percent score and critics, but ninety percent audience men in black. Is, is not that movie. Well, we also saw films like dark Phoenix, and the secret life of pets. Underperforms. Well, so is this a case of sequel fatigue urges bad movie fatigue? I think it's been ladder. The, the thing about sequel fatigue is my calling, and you did a good piece this week on some of the recent bombs, and what's behind them, and then I went and looked on the, the internet. And I saw it feels like every summer, we have some story on on franchise Petit sequel fatigue. And that's because Holly to makes so many sequels. So if you're gonna any summer, they're going to be some movies that work and some movies that don't either because they're bad or because the franchises, just tired, even marketing was not good that district strategies bad movies fail all the time. And when it's the summer in all Hollywood is doing is releasing sequels and reboots and reimagining and things nothing. That's a regional, of course. Some of those are not going to work. Well, speaking of underperforming, you've also been looking at YouTube kids, it's kind of been bombing with its target audiences kids, roughly fourteen and under just a little background. First YouTube kids was created four years ago. Back in. Fifteen can you I sort of tell us how it's different from the main YouTube site? They've used technology to limit of videos from regular YouTube, that get pulled into kid. They're supposed to be those that are really only, you know, the types of videos that you only want your kids to go on. I was just browsing through it last night, just to familiarize myself. And remember what's on? And you'll see what's called an unblocks video work kids open up Toya box and talk about what Senator animated Barbie videos that kind of thing you, don't you don't have the ability to search for anything and everything in some cases, you can have search and it is not one of the main points of controversy with the kids at is that it is not all handpicked or curated. It still does pull any kind of user uploaded video based on YouTube, kind of tagging and its allies him, which then leads to flaws where every once in a while there will. A video that gets through the sensors that should not the real problem that, that you to pass. And as you alluded to in your introduction is that most kids don't use U two kids. So the latest data that we have in our stories this week is that you kids has more than twenty million weekly users YouTube has two billion users a lot more than twenty million of those are kids, because if you look at some of the most popular channels on YouTube, whether it's this guy Ryan's toy review or coca melon, just for nursery rhyme Caesar channels with tens of millions of subscribers that on their own have a larger audience than you do kit. And that's where all that content created by YouTube users and viewers is going. And so the main site is just kind of monopolized it, I guess. Yeah. Kids between age of two and seven. It's a little easier to control what they do. And if you're an attentive parent, who only wants them to use you kids, you can probably pull that off. But if you have a kid between the age of say. Eight and twelve that's a kid, who's already dreaming of being like their older sister brother, who doesn't want to be limited to Justice kids app that has probably seen as pretty they want to be on YouTube. And frankly, the U two kids that might not have enough to satisfy them. And so they're going to want to use regular YouTube, and there just aren't enough safeguards on regular YouTube in the same way that there is on TV network like Nickelodeon, or the Disney channel fact is look, yes, they might go on to watch one thing, they might go under watch, you know, their favorite prank, which, though, being really being name is child friendly, but that could then lead to place because you have inexhaustible library and videos on YouTube. It's really unsafe for children, Lucas reporter with Bloomberg where he writes about the business of entertainment and technology, Lucas, as always, thanks so much. You can read Lucas coverage of the entertainment industry at Bloomberg dot com. Coming up on the frame, the Irish actress who plays a Scottish singer, trying to make it big in Nashville. KPCC podcasts are supported by HBO, presenting sharp objects based on the bestselling novel by Gillian Flynn. The story focuses on Camille precursor a journalist with a history of psychiatric issues who returns to a rural hometown to cover the apparent murders of two preteen girls. The limited series was hailed by critics. Exquisite auntie compelling and a true masterpiece. Emmy eligible for outstanding limited series and all other categories. Visit H B O dot com slash FIC. For more on sharp objects. Welcome back to the frame. I'm Steven Cuevas in for John horn. Thanks for joining us. The new film, wild rose begins with its feisty main character roseland fresh out of prison. She's got broken relationships to meant to kids to feed and his nursing her own hunger to become a Nashville country music star on actually trying to Nashville. Oh, and I'm meeting today's a couple of grandson. And get flights and hotel. And, and it wouldn't it be more than two or three definitely less than five. In of Saric. Give you money. That's what you'll suggest it was. No. It was aunt roseland isn't just a broke single mom show. So lives, an inconvenient four thousand miles away from Nashville in Glasgow. Scotland, the actress who portrays rose Lynn, Jessie, Buckley, sexually Irish and she got her first big break eleven years ago. Appearing on the BBC TV singing competition called. I do anything. Buckley came in a close second. I don't know how I stick through the Nash because I was. And I was so like innocent and ignorant to the whole business of know. Was it the musical theater was your first love? Yeah. Probably was yeah. Like where I grew up that was kind of my peripheral ping, I could be involved with and yeah, I loved us to the point where I remember one night, I was in production of Jesus Christ Hooper star, and I think my pen deke's was bursting on stage. And I was like I've got to finish. When you need to go to the hospital. I just I loved being part of it. What role did you have? Jesus Christ superstar, you know, hurt spear carrier. Hugely important, probably my best work. Well, what attracted you to Nicole Taylor script for wild rose? I read it. I Tom Harper who worked with an warm peace had got sent the script, and we were having a pint news, like, oh, a real of torito's, I would only want to do it, if you did it. So I love Tom and he told me to lie, down train track, and I'd be like, yeah, sure. What times the train? And when we going, but I then met Nicole. And when I read the script it was just I never really read a, a woman as irreverently fearless, and she's like a tornado in lots of ways. She has come out of prison ready to just take on the world. And she's put blinkers on of everything that might stop her. And so she's trying to run as far away from who she as and where she's from water responsibilities are because she believes that's the only way that she can catch. Her dream? Down the track. And you play a Scottish woman who's like insult with American country music, but you're rich were you aware of any, this music? No, I had no relationship to country music at all moist. After this. And I thought it was I don't know my peripheral was that it was a bit like you. Hake when I found it in phone Redick good stuff in the lyrics really in the stories that exist within the songs are kind of three minute movies. It's compe- stolen, my heart and he's quite like Irish music in ways. There's that kind of tradition in Arlon of the storyteller they call it, they call it the Shanna, he, which is this guy. He's a traveling storyteller who travels from town to town with a box goes into different pubs and stands on this box and recites stories about these different characters that he's met on his travels. And an and even within the music, there's a lot of resemblances with folk Irish music and folk country music, and even the Tanada is quite simple. But it's very emotionally deep talking to Jessie. Buckley who stars in the new film, wild rose. Did you have any say did you have any input over what songs were used for the film from up from other artists? When I was, I kind of coming to terms with country music and learning it and figuring out what rose lanes voice was within the Joe Nora. I would and other musicians like new McColl and Jack aren't not reserve music supervisor we all bottled up the shed of Northland and every two weeks, and there is some songs, which I dunno you're looking, I suppose within the film, the songs are an extension of the scene are sometimes not. But Tony you're looking for something which will tell a story or an emotional piece of what Rosalyn wants to say that she can't say, in her real life, and often, it's energy wise. Some songs we took like country girl, the primal scream song, which is at the very beginning of the film, that was only came kind of later but it was so. Right. And so their version is quite punk rock. Whereas our as we kind of arranged it more country. But it just had. Irreverence and bowls in this, and you can get like more like better kind of feel for the beginning of that film, because you have a sense of who this woman is and where that frustration. And that drive is coming from within that song. Contry. Through the. But it's the thing that's kept growing organically, as we did all the music live and saw some the songs, which is take on their own shape within the scenes a rose. Lynn's quest is to get to Nashville to break into country music. And she I think, has a very romanticized vision of what the city of Nashville is. And what it represents? I know you were not that well acquainted with country music prior to this project, but if someone had asked you, when you were prior to this, what do you think of Nashville? What do you think Nashville is or what it represents, what, what was your idea of the place? It is kind of cowboy boots and kogo hats, and, and dusty bars and some old dude sitting in a bar having drunk too much whiskey. Who's got great story. And you end up spending the whole night with kind of chatting, I don't know what kind of my head smell dusty. Will what was what we're jesse's impressions of, of Nashville when you got there. Well, like we nearly didn't make it to national at first because we when we were initially meant to go our visas got lost. So, you know, and you can't book the Reimann willy nilly, just because your visa gets lost. So we actually didn't think they were going to make and our whole shoot went on hold for, like, four five weeks. We didn't know if you're going to even get that part. So when we got there, it was kind of like resembling Rowsley journey itself. So we got there, and it was like this kind of hallowed ground of like, oh my God, where here. Spirit. So the character roseland her employer, whose wealthy kind of recognizes her talent and helps her get onto this larger stage in front of his audience of people that could support her in your career, and she has a difficult time when she's finally up on that stage but she freezes up the way you played that scene that come from any personal experience. Could you drawn anything that's ever happened to you a performer? Oh, I've had like that. It's never stopped me. Even while I was filming while rules and I was in the really like trusting environment escaping, the most horrendous panic attacks like four seeings. There's always interesting. What scenes were would initiate, the those attacks? But it's never. I mean the thing is you can't that's basically if you're on say on, you know, you're part of a team and you've got pull yourself together and, and Tom was incredible because actually whenever those times would happen. He would take me side and say that what he'd be like, are you? Okay. But he's also like this is very honest. This is human, maybe put it into the scene. See what happens does that? Also apply to win performing a musician. Oh, yeah. Yeah. God who so funny the other the other day we were in Nashville, and we were supporting we did like few songs actually McBride and I definitely I was like a black sheep of like who, who. Like this kind of English, she Irish she like, you know, and they're all gone Ashley kind of real redneck, and I go, and I was quite nervous because she's so brilliant singing guilty. And when you have this amazing song coke guilty. And when you have the aliveness with an audience, like you have to be awake to them. It changes how you sing something? Every time. And as always sing is she's got like these quite incredible Molles wearing Bolshie women, and they're like, oh, we're going to give you feel guilty about sweetness, and I got I, I out laughing I needed making three. This song was such an exciting moment, because they gave you something. And it changes, I mean my nerves were like, screw you Jesse like this is hilarious with that. Actress and singer Jesse. Buckley stars in the new film, wild rose in theaters, June twenty twenty-first. Thank you, Jessie. Thank you. Coming up on the frame, the singer who's known as the Cuban James Brown. U s Cuba relations appear to be sliding back to the Cold War era, in April. The Trump administration announced a new policy reversing changes President Obama put into place, five years ago Cubans who want to visit the US now have to travel to a third country to apply for visas. But that didn't prevent a recent visit to LA by Sima funk. The singer who billboard magazine named one of the top ten Latin artists to watch in twenty nineteen the frame contributor, but the art goes spent some time with a singer whose called the Cuban James Brown. It's a Friday night at the no name restaurant and bar on Fairfax, the blaze is backed with a couple of hundred people as Sima funk and his seven piece band deliver a blistering set of dance music. Sima funk is the brainchild of thirty year old Eric Iglesias, self taught singer, moved to have Anna eight years ago from the province of banana del Rio Iglesias did not attend Cuba's renowned music schools, and he doesn't come from a musical family, but he grew up solving a wide range of music, especially American bop, which you heard on cassettes, in the family car every time that I could get into the cassette. I just literally kill the battery of the of the just Lisa music line. Rishi. Michael Jackson's the Albany, this one of my favorites. My St. walnut. Also. Dando looking. Iglesia has got his first break. You successfully addition to sing background vocals for. Pop singer. Row will pass and began collaborating with different bands and projects. Iglesia has joined interactive will collective project with some of Cuba's, most prominent alternative music figures led by pianist Gerbert oh, carcass during the time he was with interactive will Iglesias and a couple friends created a cover band called la-z-boys, and he started to develop his own musical ideas, because I was crazy with the realize I may I need to start to sperm in the how I can I can know this way to seeing this way to perform the the group. So I say, let's make a ban on, we only gonna do cover from stevia for Michael Jackson. Once we understand what is about this problem that they have, then we pass through all the stuff that was the plan, but instead la-z-boys started making all kinds of other music, like this one called what you think. Those boys got a contract to work for eight months on a cruise ship in the Mediterranean on the tour ended Iglesias had saved enough money to buy the equipment, he needed to record his style them. But he didn't have a name, he learned about the Cimarron culture, runaway slaves and Cuba, who created their own communities and live freely in the forest black people from many places for, for many tribes from, as you from places of other countries on all day was living together with difference, as sounds with different groups who different reverie tools with different, maybe different God, even and they all live together in, they have to live together because was the only way to be to live without be slave. He called on some friends and together, they came up with the name, Sima funk, combining Cimarron and funk. County manager is Regis. He says the respected pianist gotta carcass in gave him. Some valuable feedback deco every media your own car. You're in a car leaving concert on when he heard the record. He said, this is going to be a big thing. That's the first time. I heard that Chas. See my phone has been touring the US for the past six weeks, making stops in sixteen cities, including south by southwest and Austin, New York, Chicago and New Orleans. But this is not a normal US store. I recently caught van having lunch and jamming at San Polian park in LA skit row, an area with a huge homeless population. We always try and make everything to as as much as we can bring Cubans and Cuban culture and thought leaders to the US redo shall we bring a lot of entrepreneurs and cultural axe here, that's calling Laverty the man behind Sima funk store Lavery is leaving expert on US, Cuba relations. He runs Cuba educational, travel an organisation that takes Americans Cuba doing the tour laboratory organized showcases for Google YouTube, a Netflix, I asked him why he took Sima fun to skid row. And he told me what the band said to him upon arriving two nights ago. We performed for Leonardo DiCaprio, and so that stretched alone and a star studded lineup on a forty million dollar mansion in Beverly Hills, overlooking all of the shitty and two days later, we're here in skid row. And so, I think in terms of. Getting a taste of America and understanding and also appreciating what they have another night. Sima funk took part in a Q and A and performance Grammy. Museum moderator Scott Goldman s Teague list. Yes. If he considered himself, a renegade changing the perception of Cuban music he was candid. Recycle what he's done the reading. I know changed any of doing things, I'm pulling music Stein. I'm putting this, this stuff I put together in a personal way. After the QNA Sima funk, perform to one adoring audience that good, not stop dancing, Colin Laverty says my funk has the talent and division to become the biggest modern day Cuban artists. So he is going to be the face accu-. He's going to be the cultural masseter of Cuban. I think that serves a very important role in terms of allowing Americans to understand the talent the kindness and the war of the Cuban people, which he clearly represent liberty says, for sixty years, we've been relying on governments to resolve US Cuba relations, and they haven't done a very good job, but he believes cultural exchange can continue to build bridges, especially with artists like Seema funk for the frame. I'm bet our. I bet. Fema Funke slated to perform, July six part of the data of sound festival in downtown Los Angeles. And that's it for today. I'm Steven Cuevas. Thanks for listening. We're back here tomorrow.
The Frame Weekend: Scorsese's Bob Dylan 'fever dream'; "Central Park Five" opera
"He was ultimate social worker for his music. He felt that these needed to go these songs or his children. He would say needed to go to the right family. Susannah Melvoin was a backup singer and songwriting partner of prince today on the frame weekend. We discussed the new album of his previously unheard demos, written for other artists and later, composer, bear McCreary, raise his daughter's toy box for inspiration. When scoring the new child's play to realize I stole her to again. Oh, and her brightly colored bells? And she said, I want my piano. It's my Pano. Plus a new opera tells the heroine story of the central park five, and where does reality and, and fiction begin in Martin Scorsese's, rolling thunder revue film about Bob Dylan. I'm Steven Cuevas in for John horn. It's the frame weekend. The Mon broadcast center at KPCC stick around. I'm Steven Cuevas sitting in for John horn. And this is the frame weekend amid show, we talked with creative people about how, and why they do what they do and about how their arts is shaped by the wider world a little later today in Irish. Actress plays a Scottish singer wants to make it big Nashville in the film, wild, rose. But I win prince died suddenly in April of two thousand sixteen he didn't leave a will, but he did leave behind a treasure trove of unreleased music, since then his estate, and his family have, slowly started sifting through the vaults and releasing, some of the best fine, so far, this month other release of the album prince originals it was first released on the music site. Title now available everywhere, the album is comprised entirely of demos, prince recorded that were never intended to reach the public songs like this one. Like. That was the nineteen Eighty-four demo by prints of nothing compares to you. That song was originally recorded by the band. The family in nineteen five, the family was a group created by prince as an outlet for some of his music among the members with singer. Susannah Melvoin, she was also a backup singer collaborator and lover of Princess in the nineteen eighties. Welcome susannah. I was wondering if you'd had a chance to really sit and listen to this new release originals, and if so what your overall impressions of our as a full anthrax I did. And a couple of interesting feelings, I had about it when I first listened to it, which was some of them, specifically felt that they were designed specifically for projects. I remember at that time when he was doing some of these tracks. For instance, manic Monday being when it finally did go to the bangles it was originally for apple new six so I felt them, there were the finished twenty four track versions of these things that you never just threw out demos. They were finished produced tracks and then some of them felt very personal for instance. Nothing compares to you. When I first heard it this way, again with his vocal. That's how I heard. It when it came to me in the studio, and I was on my way to Los Angeles to do that vocal, the tar part on that is great. Our version had more space to it. We took that came out. It becomes an incredible arm. Be love ballad with Clare Fischer's string arrangements on it, but it's still has a lot of air, and it has a lot of breath. Let's hear a little bit of that nineteen eighty-five version of the print song nothing compares to you by the family between my guest Anna Melvoin. Do the. Mic gas. Nothing compared to you when it was given to us. It was just heart wrenching. You know, a for many, many reasons because I was also involved with him at the time. So it felt communicative and it felt personal. And, and it was there was a, a woman that worked with him by the name of sandy Scipione, who is his personal system at the time who had a death in the family and she needed to leave. And so he was feeling this longing and loss from sandy leaving. And also we'd had a rift and. That is a deeply powerful song for me for everyone. I think so too anniversary. And if for Sinead, who when she heard this, I know that her manager had called, and I spoke with Sinead years later when and horizon, she had just been loving the family record. She wanted to do a cover of it, and she'd had her manager, call prints and say we want to do this cover and, and here's something that's very unique for him that he said. Yes to it. When someone calls and says, I want to do a cover of your song that would never happen. He was the ultimate social worker for his music. He felt that these needed to go these songs or his children. He would say needed to go to the right family to raise these songs raise these kids. I mean, it had deeper fem- than just offering songs out like you can't call me and ask me for this kid. I have to vet you. And if he didn't vet. You didn't know you didn't have a relationship with you. He wasn't going to give that up right? So but because nothing compares to you had been released on the way he want, I the way he wanted it, but it was already out into the public sphere. It's almost like once he's given it away. He's allowed it to sort of sprout itself. Susannah Melvoin is a singer songwriter, we've been talking about her collaborations with prince and much more will you, of course, new prince intimately as a person, I think you were engaged for a time and as an artist as well. And we know. No, that he was fierce in proclaiming his independence, from record labels. And from the music business in general that he was known to be exacting in the studio. And exact a lot of control over the release of his music, and his high quality and wonderful as these posthumous recordings are originals and piano and a microphone. Do you have any idea how he would feel about their release? It would never have happened. It would never have happened. The, the man that I know would have never let anyone have sort of allegiance or license to do anything with his music. So to have released anything just because someone wanted to release these, they need to be heard. It wouldn't have happened. If that makes sense then do you struggle then with sitting here and talking about it. Do I struggle with it? I suppose so although. To be pragmatic and honest, he isn't here, and the that, that's a horrible tragedy. But when someone passes like him, and he has a treasure of music that I do feel as though on some level, it's a responsibility to uphold his legacy, you know. And if I feel it's being done well, and in, in honesty, and integrity that I don't have a problem communicating. You know my experience and hopefully through my experience. I'm upholding his legacy and his brilliance. So the family and the estate acting on his behalf is layered. And I'm and I think that they're doing this particular project with a lot of integrity. Like it feels right to be here and to talk about these things. Thank you. It's pleasure. He's. That was Susannah. Melvoin longtime collaborator of prints. Her Bantu family reunited several years ago continues to perform under the name f deluxe. You're listening to the frame weekend. I'm Steven Cuevas sitting in today for John horn. And joining me now to talk about some of the top stories in the world of culture this week is Lucas shop. He covers the entertainment business for Bloomberg, so Lucas, you've been reporting on YouTube kids, and it's trouble -tracting retaining the audience. It's, it's, it's intended to target namely kids, under the age of fourteen. We're also hearing this week that YouTube itself is under this federal investigation over allegations that violates children's privacy look YouTube is embroiled in all sorts of controversies right now because look, it's got this. It's in the midst of this excess dental crisis and the kids conundrum to me is, is one of the clearest microcosm where what made YouTube great in the first place was that it was his website that anybody could upload a video to end almost little to no cost. Right. And that enabled oppressed people who are, you know, dictator ships to put up videos at the otherwise. Couldn't have because they couldn't get access to TV networks. It allowed marginalized groups that were not being an of that were not attractive to Hollywood traditional entertainment to put videos, a completely democratized celebrity in many respects and created this site that everybody uses not just kids, but that same thing that made it so great also it gave a powerful platform to all sorts of disgusting people or troubled, people, you probably don't want uploading videos. And so what do you do does not want it fundamentally changes and cut that off? But it also recognizes that it has to do more to clean it up and kids is such a tricky spot because we can probably provide some margin for error, or accept because of all our belief in free speech than there are people with the right to put up some nasty stuff that we might not all wanna see, but is legally protected or is speech that should exist somewhere. But you don't really think about that with kids, you want an experience for kids to be really safe because they can be so easily influenced because they have less control over the impulses. And so how you to manage is that when it's currently have in this fo denial that kids don't use regular YouTube. I'm not sure. Well, let's move on to the world of music, spotify's rolling out this, this new redesign, a lot of users don't seem too happy from from what I could gather to. But what's different than what does it say about where Spotify is going the redesign in question? Here is mostly on what the library screen they're three main screens within within Spotify. And the third one is of your library will display your playlists and the artists and songs you follow and all that. And the big changes that it has historically been really focused just on music because that's what Spotify it's been. It's been a music streaming service. But now at the very top, you can you have two big words, you have music, and you have podcast. And so those, they're given equal weight, and then within either music or podcasts. It's sort of your library of things that you have starred are saved or favored over the, the recent history and it speaks. To the evolution of Spotify from company that again, was a music streaming service to what is now an audio service at one if you're gonna listen to anything in, especially on your phone. Spotify wants you to do it in its app as opposed to in apple podcasts, or on YouTube or any place else. Will we also this week, Lucas had news that Jj Abrams is forging a new partnership between his production company, which is called bad robot and Warner media. How big of a deal is this going to be one of the biggest producer overall deals that we've seen in, in modern history? Most people value or estimate the value of the deal at, at five hundred million dollars in the way, it'll work is that Warner Brothers which is a television film studio owned by Warner media, which itself owned by the phone company, AT and T will then get first crack or an exclusive right to make any film and television projects that come out of Jj Abrams company, bad robot. We've seen. Slew of these big producer overall deals over the past few years, because we're in this moment right now. Are all these studios are looking to snag, the top talent to then feed, these new streaming services that they're building a lot of it precipitated by Netflix, which raise the bar or the price for a lot of these producers, because what Netflix did that other companies weren't doing was, it would pay a huge amount of money up front, because it by out all of the potential profit on a show. It's known in the industry has back end. And so you'd you'd see these headlines. Shonda rhimes, get two hundred fifty million dollar deal. Ryan Murphy gets a three hundred million dollar deal in for a year or so it seemed like Netflix with just taking all the big names from Disney from FOX and then over the past year, we've seen these traditional studios respond changed the way that they do deals copy, the net flex model and lean into the relationships. They have none more so really than Warner Brothers, which over the past twelve eighteen months signed Selma director Vernet Greg Berlanti, who produces the most shows on TV of anybody and. Justice past week both Jj Abrams. And John wells, who is producer of the west wing and shameless. Am I often thinking that this almost sounds like a throwback to the old Hollywood studio system where studio has this large stable of in-house talents, producers directors and stars? Yeah. I think that's a good way of looking at it because, you know, net flicks did do that vertical integration, where it wanted to produce an own everything and just have it sort of filter up and had used content. From a lot of other studios to build its audience. You saw every other studio then get very defensive and want to have own those relationships. I was I got got lunch this week with somebody from Disney and I was Lord, they have more than one hundred writers and producers in some kind of deal like that. I mean, that's just a tremendous pool of talent to draw from Lucas, thanks for joining us. Thanks me. Coming up. Martin Scorsese's film about Bob Dylan's nineteen seventy five tour films producer, Margaret Bodey explains. The inspiration behind the documentary bulbs concept for the rolling thunder revue was to really reconnect with both the performers that he wanted to have on the tour with him and with audiences that's next on the frame weekend. Stay with us. Welcome back to the frame weekend. John horn is away this week. I'm Steven Cuevas. Thanks for joining us in hundred seventy five Bob Dylan in a band of physicians that included Joe bias, Poet, Allen, Ginsberg, and the mic Ronson set out to small towns along the east coast. In nineteen seventy eight that footage was used to create an epic film directed by Dylan that blurred. The lines between fact and fiction it was called Renaldo and Clara and bombed, but the concept, inspired Martin Scorsese, when plotting out his new Netflix film. It's called rolling thunder revue a Bob Dylan story producer, Margaret Bodey editor, David Tedeschi worked closely with Scorsese on the film came out of Greenwich Village. I think that the idea was it's almost like a happening in the sixties he would bring the village into these little towns in New England. And so there was this idea of kind of creating more of opportunities for the performers to, to really make an impact on the audiences in place, Muller venues, and travel by bus and car and really go back to their roots and journalists Larry Sloman talks about that in the film. He was covering the tour at the time for Rolling Stone. I asked Bob, he's just kind of trying to think of a name for the tour one over sudden, in the sky here bull from left to. Right. Boom, boom. So he said, hey, let's call it rolling fund Chesley Milliken was on a tortoise, Bob rolling the Indians. And he goes what man and Jessie goes speaking truth. And then I'm glad to hear that man decided not to call this a documentary. And there is a bit of sleight of hand going on in this, Netflix film. Why should it not be viewed as a straight documentary of this very real period of, of Dylan's life and career? Well, of course, says it was very important to him to do something completely different. And in doing something completely different. You know, Netflix has described it as part fever dream, the idea is. It's just something else. It's a film. It's music. It's fantasy. It's all of those things together. And of course, Bob Dylan one point talks about the committee. Larter and how what he wanted to do before this tour was a musical committee. The Larter like the traveling storyteller musicians that will go from town to town, they would literally do that. They derive in Plymouth that before the concert, and they would hand out leaflets and they perform the next night at memorial hall, and we noticed right away that a lot of the people on the tour had a kind of an archetypal presence to them, so you have the Rolling Stone reporter. I got a story in an hour, just need about two three Peregrine's you up. From there. We kind of took off with these archetypes the film crew that embedded with the review captured hours of just extrordinary live footage. Why don't we hear something from one of those performances? And I think this is also in the film. And this is Dylan and his band performing, then brand new song called ISIS at a show in Boston in the fall of nineteen seventy five. It's an extraordinarily vivid performance when you see it because he has white face. Any has a hat with flowers in it, and it has this other worldly quality on the one hand on the other hand, it's very acceptable. Bob dylan. And what's interesting is with the rolling thunder revue tour, those songs were really not known by the audiences. And that's I think one of the other things about the performances that are so unique is that, you know, you really are able to see Dylan performing vocally and just his whole being is just committed more. Recent interviews you that you shot with Dylan for this film kind of reflecting back on the rolling thunder tour. He calls it a failure. How in what way did he see this review as a failure? The tour lost money, you know, it was it was really unsustainable. You know there were too many musicians. I it's interesting because to me looking at that tour in the context of where music is now. And how it's volved you can't even imagine any kind of, tour that doesn't have either sponsored or corporate or some kind of it's almost all about that. And egg this, this this part of history could kind of maybe remind us that there's other reasons to go perform music in front of audiences. It wasn't a success out if you measure success to profit. But it was a sensitive issue, so in many ways. Yes, it was very successful, you both been longtime collaborators of director Martin Scorsese, and of course, he's well known for his fictional films. But also documentaries, like the last waltz shine a light. Do you think there's an overarching theme behind what Scorsese chooses to do with his documentaries? Is there some sort of connective tissue? I see what he does his kind of cultural preservation, he's so eager for a particular young people to be introduced to these musicians and performers, and artists from the past, and that, are, you know, still very vital and with us today, obviously score says he has made these icon and landmark works of fiction if he had only made documentaries, I think he would be an incredible. Documentari-. And so, you know, it's, it's kind of incredible to think that he is so powerful in both genres in both formats. I would just add I, I haven't counted. I don't know. I mean films we've done together, but it's in the range of six or seven and every single project what it comes down to is he ends up saying relatively early in the project. Let's have fun with this. This is something we could have fun with. And that's a truth of the, you know, the documentaries, he's working on. It's not like they're necessarily gonna make so much money you know, but they're giving him an outlet to say something that I think he wouldn't be able to say, otherwise, Margaret David absolute thank you so much. Vick you. This is the frame weekend. I'm Steven Cuevas in for John horn video games are often criticized for encouraging violence. But some creators, wanna make games that do the opposite Connie Gilbert is a video game designer and the co founder of the Berlin based production house jahmai games, she grew up in east Germany, a small fishing village her new game see of solitude aims to tackle, depression and anxiety is a setting until thirty two game is my shoes and hometown badly. No. For twenty years. It's Lucy based on billons but actually reattaching in train station that you can recognize. Okay if you if you play game but I love my hometown. My real hometown on the by I grew up next to the beach, family fisherman's helping in boats often. So it was always like. Wate- and big cities. What I love. Is about this young woman in K, who suffering from such strong loneliness at her feeling the dock nece anger feeding of hopelessness worthlessness turns to the outside, and she becomes a monster? The game is about finding out why this happened to but also how to turn back into a human. And what are the some of the challenges involved in that journey, so story by the biggest challenge for her is to figure out what issues? She actually has she at the beginning has some kind of nesia. She doesn't even know that she has issues. Wait, monster. It seems Milia. About. She sees hunting seems to be wrong so step-by-step buy into acting was other beings. And just words that I connected to her closely, she figures out, outset she actually has issues and step-by-step he out. Okay. This is why right now. Like I am. Let me how. We're talking with Connie gabbert, she's the creator of the video game. See of solitude we talked about how the sea and where you grew up very much influential in the environment for C of solitude. But, but why ultimately did you choose to set it in this flooded world? I would imagine, I guess, knowing the sea, so well that, you know, it's power, it's dangerous wells, beauty. Yes. I almost drowned like sweet times. So I know the day, also I love swimming, and diving everything see of solitude is deeply metaphorical. So the water itself has deep meaning the risings lowering. And let it open for the to integrate. Why is what arising at some point and the main character cannot excess areas anymore? All why is this lowering in between two very open ground? And then she can go there, why. So I mean a player could see it on different levels. They could just see it as a fun game or they can see it on this much deeper level. Yes. Yes. So this is my main goal that in this game you meet them monsters in between that much bigger and size in Coa also Uman that suffer phone different types of luminous. You don't always need to have mental health something we all, like, humans you and me SAPA knows feeling of loneliness. So this, I portrayed to gain. At looks so sad. Alaska when I addressed it at onstage and millions of people. Glue. Afterwards, literally hundreds, offense, wrote me, and like, almost everyone of them told me that just loan because I mentioned to scene that I opened up about loneliness, I've helped us way helpless, lonely and heard, and coach relate and cried in between is looked at the mail that they already felt better, just because someone opened up about an issues half. But was it was a game? I ought to try to show how overcame my issues, and it's not about becoming total superhero at the end of that. Everything is fine. You always would have ups and not. That is we entity. But to get a little bit more occa- with also the downside of life to be more calm okay with how you the bad things of good things. This is what I try to show Connie. Thank you, again, so much. Yeah, thank you for having me the video game. See of solitude is available July fifth. This is the frame weekend. And I'm Steven Cuevas a warning here. The next segment contains references the sexual assault. So it's been thirty years, the violent rape of a jogger in New York's central park, riveted a city and painted this portrait of the accused roaming, gangs of teenagers attack a twenty eight year old woman, hitting your with fists and rocks. Four of them, Raper and leave her there unconscious, the wrongful conviction of five young black and Latino teenagers, and how they were vilified by the police, and the press remains ever relevance. And now there's an opera called the central park five making its premiere at the Long Beach. Opera, the composer is Anthony Davis, hop really went mainstream in nineteen eighty nine. And so I think about how I could cooperate that musical language into mine. I decided not to do you know hip hop lyrics, etc. But to use the speech rhythm aspect of tickling. We are the freeze. Which is George Clinton reference, definitely referring to George Clinton. And it's the way hip hop. Jerusalem. Borrows also from earlier forms of African American popular music. Joan. So I was sort of curious to do that. So in a way of doing a parody of something that the hiphop itself withdraw from it seems to my ears that the first half of the opera, the music, seemed much more discordant than the second half. I think part of it is that in the first half of the operator you see a lot of the interrogation and the interrogation is I looked at it as manipulation. So the an effect using the rhythmic aspects of the music it propels, the district attorney and the mask figure in their territory of the central park, five. So a lot of it is creating that stress for the rhythmic tension. And then there are lyrical moments certainly, you know, when no-one smiling anymore when they sing together, the sort of there's this sections where they're almost drawing from take six and some of the vocal groups of the eighties and stuff. You know. In close harmony and, and using that kind of harmony for, for the voices. And so some lyricism comes out of that. And also, the sense of the so we feel empathy for them how they're feeling when during this whole process of the trial and the way they play on their fears you worked with the librettist Richard Wesley on this work. Can you talk about what was involved in developing the voices of the main characters of the boys? These, these boys aged fourteen to sixteen so, so it really reflected who they were at the time was an interesting problem because, you know, in a way, when we first protest, it, we were thinking of having, you know, double cast have the young right central park, five and try to cast closer to their age. And then the older central park five that became too complicated that was way too complicated. And then we thought about, you know, eventually to have them as the older central power five what their ages would be now reflecting back and then sort of inhabiting the. Their younger selves. What, what they were when this all happened in one scene, in the opera, we hear the character of Tricia Miley, who was the jogger who was assaulted and raped and nearly lost her life. We don't see her. But I believe it's in the trial sequence, and she's giving Dimona we only hear her voice from off stage. Singing. Why did you choose to have her be heard, but not seen because we were more interested in the effect of the fact that she didn't remember, she didn't couldn't remember what happened that the disappointment of the five that she didn't remember because they were hoping that they would be exonerated because of her testimony will the opera's been in production for a while. But the premier now comes on the heels of Eva juvenile for part series from net flicks documenting what happened her series, and your opera could've come at almost any time really in the last ten or twelve years. Why do you think now is the time to? Visit this story. And why do you think it's resonating with so many people? Why fig one of the factors the election of Donald Trump? I mean, we, we've now have a person in power who whose political career began with the central park five that's where his whole playbook of using race and using racial division, using the rhetoric kind of rhetoric that he uses began, and, and we saw that in the presidential campaign, and he still refuses to apologize or knowledge that the central were innocent. He does does Linda fairstein the prosecutor. There was no physical evidence, tying them to the to the rape in salt. So it's kind of outrageous, that, she still holds that view. Anthony Davis is the composer of the new opera. The central park, five produced by the Long Beach opera and onstage now at the Warner grand theatre in San Pedro. Anthony was real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. Final performances of the central park, five or this weekend, June twenty second and twenty third coming up in Irish actress who got her big break on BBC singing competition show is now the lead in a movie the frame weekend. We'll be right back. It's the frame weekend. And I'm Steven Cuevas sitting in today for John horn. A beloved toy has returned to movie theaters this weekend. Nope. Not talking about what he the cowboy talking about checking killer new reboot of one thousand nine hundred eighty eight horror film. Child's play campy and creepy and all kinds of ways down to its domestically child-like score. The frame contributor, Tim grieving gets the story from the film's composer, the original child's play was like the forbidden fruit. It was a tattered, VHS box on the shelf at the rental store. That was like haunting nightmares. There's something so inherently seductive about it when you're a little kid. No. France to the end number this, the end foreign. It was not something I ever thought I would I would get to play around with bear McCreary is a film, and TV composer, best known for the Walking Dead and agents of shield, he scored two of this summer's big movies, Godzilla king of the monsters, and the child's play directed by LARs clev- Berg. I mean he, he has described as movie as e t on acid and basically pitched him this idea what if we scored the movie with toys? I wasn't making the toys creepy. I just found the ones that are. We're in McCreary studio in Culver city all around the room are stacks of Hertie, Gerdes, accordions, and other quirky toy instruments, including variety of toy pianos. This one's my favorite. We sit down on a couch in front of coffee table where a handful of toy pianos of varying size, sit side by side, the tuning, it is not only in a completely different key, and you can see on the keys. It says what notes they are. And it's a lie. Those are not the notes that is not a C but the tuning is, especially weird. Take a listen to this. Played in a different key. You hear it even more. These are supposed to be different notes. Once my five year old daughter got wind of what I was doing. She came in and started looking around and tap, the toy pianos, and she realized I, stole her toyed piano, and her brightly colored bells. And she said, I want my piano. It's my Pinot multiple times pick up this toyed Pano and it's not one of the smaller ones. Take it back into the house said it in her playroom. She would play it for like a minute. And then go do something else, and then when she's not looking I pick it back up and bring it back out here, and, yeah, that was really fun. I definitely borrowed a lot of toys from her room. So you have these sounds. That's Chuck is new theme. So these little things they look like Muppets, but they're called automatons. It's true. They have mummy looking heads, but with a silicone texture and body shaped like a musical note, almost like an upside down, Pez dispenser with a giant manipulable mouth. And they essentially are like a. A ribbon controller synthesizer that has a little face. And when you make it talk it verbalize a sort of a wall wa sound. We were both getting paid to do this. It's ridiculous, isn't it? It's the funniest thing in the world. He pulls out a different kind of Tom atone. This giant muppet like head the larger automaton as a more digital sound. I am not. But what I was able to do within these sort of choir textures. I was able to create what sounds to me like a little doll, and I would stack these and I would play them slightly out of tune with each other. And it just sounds in the middle of this horrific score. Like there's a little dulling. I'm just going to play you the theme. And the first thing you're gonna hear the toy pianos and the auto harps. And then immediately, you will hear the vocals, and my voice is featured very prominently in the film. You might think it's a choir of twelve year old girls, but it's me. In the movie, the consumer version of the Chucky doll, aka the non demonic version program to sing a friendly, little tune called the buddy, bear McCreary knew he would get to write that song. But what I did not know when I signed onto the movie was that they were going to cast. Mark Hamill Chucky and sort of unexpected surprise was that Mark really can sing? Until. More. My best friend and Chucky throughout the movie and kind of becomes twisted and sinister as his relationship with Andy changes my book. Unto and more than. Your my best friend, this creepy, little Diddy by bear. Mccreary is coming to a theater near you for the frame. I'm Tim grieving. I. Go. I am your buddy. Child's play is in theaters now. You're listening to the frame weekend, and now for very different movie with very different music head. Chew. Wild robes is about roseland a woman freshman prison broken relationships demand, and two kids defeat, who also has hunger to become a Nashville country music superstar on actually trying to Nashville. Oh, I'm needing today's a couple of grandson, get flights and hotel. And, and it wouldn't it be more than two or three definitely less than five. I just give you money. That's what you'll suggesting. It was it was it problem isn't just money. She lives four thousand miles away from Nashville in Glasgow. Scotland roseland is played by Irish actress Jessie. Buckley, she got her first big break eleven years ago when she appeared on the BBC singing competition show called I do anything. Well I was coming over to finish school. And I was taking a gap year, and in between is applying for drama school to study musical theater a gap here in the US in the Ohio. I live in, in the UK. I got it. I went Todeschini for this drama school, and I didn't get in and on the same weekend. There was like an open audition for this TV talent show on I'd another drama school dish coming up, so as well. Just go and practice my songs. Anyway. Basically I kept going in came second. I don't know how I stick through the nesh because I was cross leagues. I was so like innocent and ignorant to the whole business of, you know. What attracted you to Nicole Taylor script for wild rose. I read it. I Tom Harper who I'd worked with warm peace had got sent the script, and we were having a pint news. Oh, real of Tarita, I would only want to do it. If you did it. So I love Tom and he told me to light on a train track, and I'd be like, yeah. Sure what time the train, and when we going. But then met Nicole. And when I read the script of just I never really read a, a woman as a reverently fearless, and she's like a tornado in lots of ways. She has come out of prison ready to just take on the world. And she's put blinkers on of everything that might stopper. And so she's trying to run as far away from who she as and where she's from water responsibilities are because she believes that's the only way that she can capture dream. And you play a Scottish woman who's like in thrall with American country music. But you're rich were you aware of any of this music? No, I had no relationship to country music at more started this. And I thought I was I don't know my peripheral was that. It was a bit like damn. Alba damn you hick. When I founded and phone Redick good stuff the lyrics really in the stories that exist within the songs are kind of three minute movies. It's compete me stolen, my heart quite Irish music in ways. There's that kind of tradition. In Arlen of the story teller, they call it, they call it the Shanna he, which is this guy, he's a traveling storyteller who travels from town to town with a box and goes into different pubs and stands on this box and recites stories about these different characters that he's met on his travels, and even within the music, there's a lot of resemblances with folk music and folk country music, and even the Tanada. Is quite simple. But it's very emotionally deep talking to Jessie. Buckley who stars in the new film, wild rose. Did you have any say did you have any input over what songs were used for the film from, from other artists when, when I was, I kind of coming to terms country music can learning at figuring out what rose lanes voice was within this Joan? I would. And other musicians new McColl and Jack Arnold music supervisor we all bottled up to the shed of Northland every two weeks. And there is some songs, which I don't know, you're looking, I suppose within the film, the songs are an extension of the scene are sometimes not totally. You're looking for something which will tell a story or an emotional of what roseland wants to say that she can't say, in her real life and often, it's just energy wise. Some songs we took like country girl, the primal scream song, which is at the very beginning of the film, that was only came kind of later but it was so. Right. And so their version is quite punk rock. Whereas our as we kind of arranged more country. But it just had that irreverence and bowls Innis and you can get like more like better. Feel for the beginning of that film, because you have a sense of who this woman is where that frustration. And that drive is coming from within that song. Contry. Through. But it's a thing that's kept growing organically, as we did all the music live and saw some the songs, which is take on their own shape within the scenes will rose Lindquist quest is to get to Nashville to break into country music. And she has a very romanticized vision of what the city of Nashville is. And what it represents? I know you were not that well acquainted with country music when you got there. Well, like we nearly didn't make to national at first because when we were initially to go visas got lost. So, you know, count book the Reimann willy nilly, just because your visa gets lost. So we actually didn't think that we're going to make. And our whole shoot went on hold for like, four five weeks. We didn't know if you're going to even get that part. So when we got there, it was kind of like resembling Rowsley journey. So we got there, and it was like this kind of hallowed ground of like, oh my God, where here. So the character roseland her employer, whose wealthy kind of recognize talent and helps her get onto this larger stage in front of the audience of people that could support her career, and she has a difficult time when she's finally up on that stage but she freezes up the way you played that scene that come from any personal experience. Could you draw anything that's ever happened to you performer? Oh, I've had like that it's never stopped me. Even while I was filming world rules. And I was really like trusting environment getting the most horrendous panic attacks like four seeings always interesting. What scenes were would initiate, the those attacks? But it's never. I mean the thing is can't. That's basically, if you're on say. You're part of a team and you pull yourself together and, and Tom was incredible because actually whenever those times would happen. He would take me side and say that what he'd be like, are you? Okay. But he's also like this very honest. This is human, maybe put it into the scene. He what happens. Thank you. Thank you. That was Jesse. Buckley, she started in the movie, wild, rose. It's in theaters now. And. The. Can hold onto. This is just. And that's all for the frame weekend. This program is edited by Darby Maloney, and produced by her Monica bushman Jonathan Shiffling, and Julia Paskhin Valentino vet is our engineer under Gutierrez is our news clerk, intern is Paul Ratliff theme music is by Taylor mcferrin, and our senior producer, Oscar Garza. I'm Steven Cuevas in the Mon broadcast center at KABC. You can join John horn on Monday the weekday edition of the frame.
I'm Thinking of Ending Things (Directed by Charlie Kaufman) We're Thinking of Podcasting Things
"Support for this podcast comes from state farm with surprisingly great rates. State farm is the real deal when it comes to home and car insurance state farm agents are in your neighborhood ready to help personalize your insurance and you can manage your coverage, pay your bill or even file a claim right from your phone with the state farm mobile APP visit, State Farm Dot com today to get a great rate without sacrificing great service that State Farm Dot Com. When you want the real deal like a good neighbor state farm is there. What's up everybody welcome to show me the meaning West cracks movie podcast. My. Name is jared and I'm joined here by the wisecracked crew we got Ryan some film fans an Michael Wow excited back. Yeah. Good to have you back. So today we're tackling the twenty twenty movie I'm thinking of ending things directed by Charlie Kaufman starring Jesse Clemens, and Jessie Buckley. At always we're going to go around and see what people thought about this movie if they have seen it twice what did you think of the first time you saw it and what was like revisiting it for this podcast I have a pretty strong reaction to this movie. So I'M GONNA go first which is not something I usually do and I gotta keep it real Hated this movie. I absolutely. I mean I I mean. I hated it so much that it actually kind of ruined my day. I thought it was relentlessly boring. I thought it was pompous. It was super pretentious. And this is strike three for Charlie Kaufman for me because. While, the first one I didn't really like Synnex. Key New York that much I like that I didn't really like anomaly. So very much I really like that. And this one is my least favorite. Did you did you like being? John, Malkovich or at love love being John Malkovich. Those movie had this movies had a sense of humor especially, Malkovich Malkovich had a sense of humor that I thought was great I Like Eternal Sunshine a lot and then there was another movie also had the most creative directors at the helm in Hollywood shirt are all yeah. I'm really good at what they do wasn't there another movie I'm there's another thing that he wrote journals on spouse mind who? Shen adaptation adaptation adaptation is the what I'm saying you liked that movie a lot. It's actually probably my favorite coffin movie. So I hate to start this on such a negative. Negative. Run but Ryan I'm really curious to see what you think of this movie. Look. All right. I'm Charlie Kaufman apologised I love the shit out of the man I think he's one of the most brilliant writers we've got and. So I. AM willing to give him the benefit of that and I loved synthetic. New York which I fully admit is not for everybody but it worked for me and you're either GonNa love this movie or you're GonNa fucking hate this movie there's no between on it and I am right with jared I fucking hated the shit out of this own. fucking off, I couldn't wait for it to be over every minute I was just sitting there. Was Charlie cop and thinking he had a shot here. He added a novel. Lisa obviously huge disaster. Financially especially. And then you'd think he'd Kinda go. All right. What did ever like my first couple movies? Why are they so accessible or they always good about them but he no, he took no lessons from that. He said, all right I'M GONNA make an even more pedantic pretentious like up my own ass telling of the Deke is because to me that's his. That's the work that feels like the most akin to. especially with all the time dilation stuff whatever. But yeah man like like I just. This is not strike three for me because I like those other two movies but this is a huge strike and it is it doesn't for anyone who's on the fence about Charlie Kaufman about whether you know they're gonNa like them this movie will not. Persuade anybody and I really hated it and I am pissed me off and really made me mad i. i. have to Echo what you said it in just how every single minute was painful. Yeah, just just waiting for to end I mean I googled the running time on my phone while the movie was playing at least three times just because like it has to be closer to over it has to Oh my God two hours and fourteen minutes doesn't need to be that long. Please just be a cool ninety minutes. Sorry. To get it. Yeah are GONNA. Get into breaking it down it's not going to be a complete hate fest but. Author I'm curious. About what is actually trying to say, but then also for a guy who spoiler up for a guy who made the edit an adaptation one of the core jokes is that the Donald Kaufman, the brother is making a whole screenplay about with with multiple personalities and how cliche that is just stupid and pretentious it is, and then this whole movie is the three he's making fun of. FUCKING ADAPTATION Just like. I mean you can also think about it as adaptation about him adapting to not be focused on being so pretentious and actually adopt some of the traditional screenwriting methods to actually give something to your audience to make them excited to give them some suspense but it seems like that adaptation didn't actually happen because now he's back to just complete throwing the the book to the side no screen no respect to any screenwriting rules just whatever he wants to do. Yes that is pretty much what it was. It was not fun being that far up Charlie Kaufman's ass for two hours and fourteen minutes. knows. All right. Michael Sorry. We've just been hating our did you feel I can only hear you all a little bit because I'm on my own island far away from the mainland you all in on this island we liked it we. Liked the movie. And another thing on my island, we are a people who feels we feel like we knew we were getting into with Charlie coffin film both. Not, obviously in original screenplay based on a book but screenplay written by directed by him and I know I hearing you all say this I think the thought I've had in in the in the wake of watching this film and talking to people about it I get why people hate it. So this isn't one of those films were like. To defend it such that I would imply someone had bad taste or misses the point that they didn't get it. So I get that but I really did feel like watching it and seeing some of the responses like it doesn't feel to outside the realm of what confident has been. Especially in the films that he is directed. And I don't know to me. It's like a more internal version like I think the way that y'all have put it of him being up his own ass I think there's like another version of that where rather than it being a pejorative thing I think he is super internal and this film is a deep exploration of aspects of his own subjectivity anxiety and the Rosie's, and he went all in on that and maybe it's Too much of that but overall. I liked the film I will say this I think that sometimes you know there's those films that you feel like you either have to watch it a second time or consult source material or read a few reviews till I totally get maybe not even get fully appreciate I feel like this was one of those movies and I always do feel like it's a legitimate critique of filmmaker if I need to do like homework or have repeated viewings to fully appreciate the film. So I would say that is my my biggest allowance, my biggest critique when we get into this more but that was one of the problems I had with it in general is that it took me a while. To appreciate it well, I. I would even a little bit more extreme than that because in all the reviews that I saw, the only way that people were able to piece together what was happening on a basic plot level in this film is to refer back to the book which I think is completely inadequate I'm as the adaptation should be its own standalone piece that makes sense in and of itself. But really like there was an an article in the Guardian that was like, Hey, we're you confused by I'm thinking of ending things. Well, don't feel bad because we had to refer back to the source material just to even explain on a basic level what was happening and yeah. Maybe I'll devil's advocate myself here and I don't even fully agree with what I'm about to say, but we don't hold that standard for like literature. For example, it's totally fine if in literature and author has a book that heavily references other authors from the genre, their cannon or whatever it is, and with a novel, we wouldn't hold someone to the standard of like I should be able to read this without any other understanding and I think especially, you know it's fitting that that the Jesse pundits character brings up David Foster Wallace at one point because. The, self. Referential and heavy footnoted nature of David Foster. Wallace comes through in the film but I guess that's my like charitable take is sure you can't come to it with a blank slate but if you do a little bit of the background work or you watch it a couple times. It's rewarding in a way where certain films watch at once and you get everything you can out of it and that one viewing I'm kind of devil's advocate because I feel that as the one likes, I have to try to keep the dialectics of this dialogue going. That's fair. You have to come to avoid having seen the Broadway play Oklahoma or else you're talked in particular a high school production because the dynamics of teenagers in those characters really help, and of course, you have to have maybe this doesn't not jump ahead or spoil anything. You have to have recently watched the end of a beautiful mind which I do once a week. All right. Let's jump into a recap now, this recap. Going to basically just describe what was shown on screen and not actually quote unquote what really happened? So an unnamed woman is thinking of ending her relationship with her boyfriend Jake on the way to visit his parents on a farm. When they arrive Jake recalls a short anecdote about a pig infested with maggots. When they enter the house, the unnamed woman starts to receive mysterious calls and Jake's parents back and forth in age from young parents to elders with dementia all the while the stories intercut with footage of a high school janitor watching rehearsals, free school performance of Oklahoma. On, the way Home Jake decides to stop her ice cream at a small parlor called Tulsi town after a bizarre encounter with the Tulsi Town Workers Jake decides to stop at his old high school to throw away the ice cream after an argument that transitions to a make out session jake senses the high school janitor peering in on them and decides to enter the Highschool to confront him. The unnamed woman follows Jake inside and meets the janitor. When she sees Jake, they replaced by dancers who are dressed like them. A dance number ensues between dancers dressed like jake, the girl and the janitor. Later janitor goes to his truck and hallucinates images of maggot-infested pig and Jake's parents. He gets naked and follows the pig into the school who tells him that he and his ideas are the same in the final scene. Jake receives a Nobel Prize and sings a song from Oklahoma surrounded by people from his life in exaggerated makeup. He's given a standing ovation and in our final shot we see. The Janitors car covered in snow and of movie our guys move on. I WANNA give a shout out the story blocks for sponsoring this episode store blocks the complete solution for businesses or creators need access to high quality royalty for video audio and images with a subscription. You can get access to an unlimited amount of assets that could be essential to your podcast video school project or small business if. You've tried to license something before you know that a couple second clip could break the bank, and if you're trying to use something in the public domain, your options are pretty limited with story blocks. There is no worry that you will blow the budget or accidentally steal someone else's work. You have permission to use your downloaded assets for everything including commercial projects a highly recommend you check out their. Plans because you can tailor subscription to your needs. There's an audio package of video package or the unlimited option which includes template designed downloads for the adobe suite. They're constantly adding to their library. So there's always new options to explore. Check out all of story block subscription options by going to story block, dot com slash wise crack or clicking the Lincoln the show notes, and now back to the show. All right. So I am going to quote the quote, The Guardian who says here here goes what this movie is essentially about the entire movie is a daydream inside the mind of the janitor. You see periodically the woman that Jesse Buckley plays a fantasy. The man Jesse clements plays Jake is a projection of the janitor decades earlier. So at what point did you guys get that I honestly got pretty damn early to be honest The they're cutting back and forth the fucking janitor the whole time and I guess your mind kind of goes okay. Is this him way in the in the future after she has ended things with him and he is kind of thinking back on the relationship But then with all the weird ass shit going on with the the costumes changing the name changing and stuff it just became very clear to me that this was somebody's recollection of what was what had happened and that. I can't tell you a time code, but but it was earlier than I think that the filmmaker wanted to know. Yeah I tend I think it was like apparent relatively early on like when you see the janitor stare out the window for a second and then they're they show him at a high school production of Oklahoma or whatever it was in the car they start talking about high school musicals I will say that it took me a while I didn't realize until after the fact. that it wasn't an actual memory but a projection. So I think what I thought about halfway even at the end of the film is this was someone working through their own memories and the sort of disjointed memories of something that happened years ago I didn't realize initially that it was more of. A fantasy projection. Right, and the evidence that it's more of a projection is that she's always changing whatever she studying and when she goes into his room, we see a big a big book about Pauline Kale we see the DVD of a beautiful mind and Basically when they're in the car her big monologue about her critique of John cassavetes film a one, a woman under the influence is lifted right from Pauline Kale. There's also a book of poetry in that room and the the poem that she recites in the car early in the film is not actually an original poem from that character, but actually lifted from the text of the book that she finds in his room. So yeah, this is it's it's either a fantasy woman or someone he wants met in real life and he's just projecting all these qualities onto her. Yeah I mean even the fact that her name changes throughout the film that was an interesting thing to catch. Along with the wardrobe changes and everything like that. But I don't know like how much we want to dive into. That's stuff right now but I do think it was it was an interesting way to deal with a person who was a projection and I mean some of this maybe we'll give it up for Jessie Buckley for being a wonderful actor. But the level of of agency and character. This non-real character had I thought was really interesting. And kind of bold move to make a projection and by a certain metric like the protagonist of the film. So I'm getting the feeling that Charlie Kaufman can't get over the fact that he may be a narcissist like that's kind of like what is the defining feature that's defined his last three movies, instinet, key, New York. There he there's all these like people blending and the whole thing is about solipsism and how he thinks you know other people are not extras in the grand play that is your movie basically and in anomalies. Even, his lovers and all the other characters voiced by the same person and you know he's like criticizing the main character because he's not mature enough to have a healthy relationship and then in this movie, He's I dunno criticizing janitor at or Criticizing himself for basically thinking of a woman or lovers as just projections of oneself or of wish fulfilment for an individual who wants to just project all their fantasies onto an individual. It's just it's a strange thing that I think I would like him to move past and it's not something that I think is very appealing. The question is, is that unique to Kaufman and? Most of what I'm going to say is going to have a little bit of my devil's advocate thing turned up just so I don't just fall into the chorus and we. Go ahead, masturbate over, create it but But isn't that aren't we? All like no one wants to admit it right. But we all go through the world to a certain extent, the protagonist and our own melodramatic play, and we over think everything and we think about things from the past and we give agency and traits to people that we project onto them. So pardon me, my charitable reading is Kaufman is willing to be like, yeah, I am this. Neurotic narcissists but aren't we all in a certain way I don't know maybe I'm just a bad person and you both go through the world thinking of yourselves as just like a silent. God that is drama. It's absolutely you're right. It's that's a human emotion I think Juror just frustrated with HAL. How you know there's things that happen in life that would not necessarily translate to a good dramatic story, right? And sometimes, it can I'm trying to think of a movie that features A. Taxi, drivers something where it's just like all about one man's inner psyche and kind of but that movies great because he I don't know the writing is just better. I, guess this one just it's like, yes, he's dealing with being a narcissist meditating on that. But what we get is just these endless scenes of dialogue. Relative seemingly about random topics and nothing kind of but I guess we're supposed to all add up to a feeling atone. For the film and I just think that his that this this meditation on I. Guess You call it living a life at the end of your life and kind of living a life of. Looking back in your life with regret I I guess would be kind of. This film It just isn't very dramatic telling of that predicament that a lot of people find themselves in. It's like he's just he's just rubbing his and everyone else's nose in the mud of just how boring narcissistic and stuff his life could end up being if if he doesn't change I guess. Yeah. I, mean, my biggest criticism of this movie would be that I think we've tried very much to achieve this ominous tone or even like even A. Almost a spooky to sense, and I never was really sucked in I never was really overwhelmed with questions about what is going on everything all the little details of all the small eastern. Trinity's all the small quirks all the small you know like, Oh, the I I mean. This. This is just me going back to shitting on the movie. It Just with a short anecdote friend who I've a friend WHO programs for a pretty big film festival and I've seen some of the movies. Basically, her job is to watch all of the submissions and choose which movies into film festival and a lot of movies are really bad and a lot of them have these really grand ambitions. But for one reason or another, it just falters because it's really hard to tell the story about life. Love. Individuality all the stuff that we all as artists want to tell, and this movie just feels like one of those failed attempts just with way better actors because all the performances in this movie are great i. Feel like. I don't know just little things like. Jake get like having a hissy fit about the ice cream just felt a little bit. Out of nowhere and not. It didn't it none of the weird like we say like Oh Charlie Kaufman is into weird filmmaking. You say the same thing about David Lynch but I don't really think that at least in my mind, it does much service to Charlie Kaufman as an artist to just be considered weird because in my mind most of the quote weird things that happen are seemingly just happening for the sake of being weird and I know it's a very fine line between saying that Oh, well, there's not necessarily any reason why weird things happen David Lynch movies, but he's actually able to achieve a tone whereas Charlie Kaufman isn't but that's just how I feel about. Kaufman's work is it's weird but you can't just have weird without really mastering all the elements of filmmaking and I think that one of the things just to relate him back to Lynch again that Lynch does. So wonderfully is that he does own sound design which really helps bring the audience into like feeling atmosphere that just doesn't really happen in this movie but I digress. Somebody do a knockoff of like a Lynch scene is painful. You know like like you see the you can see the the influence whatever and Charlie cop and doesn't really have. He's not known necessarily for his visually Sediq. He's known as a writer guy that can right like these mind bending twisty whatever the fuck. Head scratchers, and I don't know. What he's three movies as a director in he's certainly. I don't like his style I can tell you. This is kind of like his main thing like this year, very similar in the sense that it's very kind of drab colors with. Yeah like the seat with short scenes. I don't know what I'm saying anymore but I don't like his stomach as a director. He needs a director to guide his awesome scripts into their through their production. Michael Burns. I'd say every time I have to defend something I mean I'll agree with this I don't do I think that. I. Think you guys are absolutely right and that there was something special about when he was paired with people like Spike Jones Michelle Dri I think both of those people brought both those directors brought a certain levity and playfulness to the films on this movie. I don't think anyone really call it a playful movie. There was a few points that I found kind of like funny or charming and kind of a weird way. When it comes down to the details. I don't know I guess it's a matter of do we think that it was a bunch of random shit that means nothing he threw in because he finds those things interesting or is there you know? Meaning to. The woman who I forget what her name is at that point in the film who who shows you know her pictures. On her phone to the father played by Richard. Fuels. How do you guys last name? Yeah so the active as the father and there's this discussion about her art and the father says, it doesn't say anything to me because I don't see anyone there I need someone there to feel something about this art and she says to him no by seeing the painting you are there you're in it you're a part of this. So I think there was a weird discussion interesting discussion there about like do we need to see ourselves in this thing for the art to mean anything, and then of course, after that discussion later we find out that aren't even her paintings. So our whole discussion of authenticity is is masked by the fact that they're a bunch of paintings hitting in the basement. I did think okay. Let's be critical. I. Found the the time spent at the parents house a little overindulgent I don't think we needed to be there for that long. I think we needed to jump around as much that could have been Djonovic quicker although I like the feeling of and maybe this because I'm a glutton for punishment as an audience member. I liked being confused for a little bit i. like that first moment where you're like way was tony collapse hair different a second ago. Did she just get older? is address color different way to they? Wasn't physicist but now she's a poet biologist like I kind of enjoyed watching things fall apart. I enjoyed the chaos of the film in that sense now even though you know why it was happening this -sarily. Yes I will not I will say that I'm not going to like say that anyone who doesn't enjoy it as missing the point, but I did enjoy the chaos. I enjoyed not getting it and I enjoy the the puzzle one point of trying to figure out what the fuck was happening and if it meant anything now I'm not saying it necessarily paid off but I did enjoy some of the chaos of the film. And I guess one thing I kept thinking about in this movie and this is kind of a personal anecdote but I remember being very young my early twenties and I had a a roommate and friend named Dan whenever I had a crush on someone he would say to me don't marry her in your mind because when you do this, you get obsessed and it sort of like you do this projection that takes you away from reality and takes you away from a real person and as I was watching this movie I was like Oh this is like it's sort of like the when keeping it real goes wrong. This is what happens when like Marion idea in your mind goes wrong When you're so committed to an idea or projection that you get lost within it or something like that and I think that part of it was interesting for me. To be honest I. I like that idea for a film in the story and stuff it's like. My experience washing this two hour fifteen minute film was was at the beginning going. Okay. All right. I'm trying to see what the puzzle is. Okay. I'm into this. There's like there's there's stuff under the surface going on in these conversations like what am I? You know he's there's a lot going on with the dialogue. Then when like you said Gerald new brain kind at some point kind of figures out of the correlation between the old man and whatever. Then it became a very much a one note movie from me for the rest of the duration of the thing it. was just okay. We're inside this man's head usually wait till the end of a film to kind of reveal something like that. But like they show you the old man from the first scenes basically and and so once you get that then to me, all dramatic like everything is just lifted and I'm just just watching a bunch of projections inside a got a crazy head at at a certain point and at that point I totally stopped carrying dramatically. I'm just kind of like okay. Now I'm just guessing right what is Charlie Kaufman trying to tell me with this this film. I never got to answer. Support for this podcast comes from Microsoft teams. Now, there are more ways to be a team with Microsoft teams bring everyone together in one space with a new virtual room collaborate live drawing sharing and building ideas with everyone on the same page and make sure more of your team has seen and heard with up to forty nine people on screen at once learn more about all the newest teams features at Microsoft Dot com slash teams. Yeah. Last thing I'll say because I don't want this to just be too much about whether or not the film was good or not is that. I always say that the film has to give me something in order to care, and by the end of this movie, I just felt like, wow, there's a ton of questions in my head about what I just watched, but I don't give a fuck, right you know I because I feel like somebody is punishing me and asking me to go do homework rather than rather than really inspiring me and inspiring a sense of wonder, and then you know that's what I require in order to really really want to think hard and put all those puzzle pieces together like Charlie Kaufman's is clearly inviting us to do. Let's talk about the title really quick. Okay. So Real Quick Michael I. WanNa hear since you liked the movie. What was your? Your process in understanding the movie because actually when I first heard about this movie, we were in a meeting and you mentioned that it was based on a book. How much reading about the book did you have to do to make sense of it because like one thing that I I suspected but it was not something that was verified until I started doing some digging is that The title refers to a relationship ending and thinking of committing suicide, which apparently if you read the book is what the janitors clearly contemplating but I mean I suspected that watching the movie but didn't really find that I had enough evidence to support it but then people pointing to book claim that that is in fact the case yeah. Well Yeah. I mean I. I know that when I got excited when I saw movies coming out of like Charlie coffin lot when I saw his based on a book I started to look into it but then positives is want to see this movie for what it is and look into it afterwards. I kind of you know I found the title created bit of tension because early in the film. The main character says. You know I'm thinking of ending things and in one sense, it's like, okay. Well, she's just talking about her new boyfriend. So this is about breaking up in another sense normally when someone says ending things in that way, they're talking about ending their own life. So I felt like it created attention did almost bounced back and forth between those two feelings like is this movie about someone? In despair over a relationship and of course, this is all before you realize that she is a projection in portly janitors head But is it despair about a relationship or is it a despair about existence itself? In which one of those two things is driving it. So I found that the title created a bit of tension there. And I think of course, then you go and read about the book and hope this. Yeah we this is a spoiler free zone and that we can also. In the book, it's very clear. The janitor kills himself at the end and I think what I was wondering. rewatching the end of the film like are we meant to believe that he is killing himself at the end because there's a scene where Jessie Buckley character says hypothermia is not such a bad way to die before she gets out of the car and goes into the school. So in the final scene, like is that what he's doing is he get into the car naked just to freeze himself out I've never heard about method of suicide it sounds horrific. But yeah, and then I think when you read the film back, it's that question of is this basically just like someone trying to convince themselves. That they shouldn't kill themselves and I know that's that's one reading of the book. I read some of the reviews that it is this person looking back on their life and their failures and thinking about the woman who they never called or they didn't give their number two and trying to create a narrative reason to not kill themselves which I think then touches into the scene where we may be talking about this or the janitors watching the Corny Rom com directed by Robert Zemeckis. And I think it's like this moment of like. A key wants to narratives things in this cute Ron. Conway. So he doesn't kill himself. But the reality seems different from that. So I guess that's one way to look at it in line with the book at someone's weird kind of psychotic meditations trying to convince themselves that their life is worth living the way that I read that last shot last shot as we see. His car covered in snow and it's this wide shot. That kind of evokes the paintings that she was that the girl new Englander iphone a little bit and I think the question of did he kill himself can kind of be like if you look at this image and see it as a sad image than yet he killed himself. But if you look at the same age and say that Oh will you can't really communicate sadness without someone looking sad and the image like the father says that maybe he didn't maybe it's like one of those Ambi did you all catch the after the credits cuisine? Oh no I didn't know there was no I, turned it off immediately. TV out the window and ran around naked to cleanse yourselves. But I'm right at the end they cut back. You see the car covered in snow and you hear someone trying to start the car. Cook Up. Changes everything is everything but I think he didn't things. No No. No. But I think if I wanted to get maybe it's a dumb thing I think the car they shows cargo snow is is not the janitors car it's like Jake and. Amy Whatever her name is car. So maybe the idea is like he didn't end up killing himself and the fantasies still alive or something like that I don't know I'm not good at reading into those. But. If you stayed through the very end, it's the final shot. You see the car covered in snow and it sounds like someone's trying to start it. So what about small things like him freaking out about the ice cream like do you attribute any meaning to like those smaller quirks within the movie? That's that really make the audience ask Wisey freaking out about the ice cream getting all sticky and stuff like that. I don't know I mean. Yeah Okay Yeah I really don't I mean like you know they they try to create something there. I. Do know in the book it's Dairy Queen which makes it more relatable. 'CAUSE TULSI downs not real. You know in one of the opening shots of the film are in the first like ten minutes or so when we see the old guy driving to work, he has a Tulsi town bag. Next to a seat. And then there's the thing where when when Jesse, opponents character gets up there there's already a trash can full of these burs which I think are clearly just version of dairy Queen Blizzard once again shouts dairy queen, which it could have been a film about, dairy, Queen Blizzards. I think maybe it's sort of in that old man's head that were meant to believe. It's dislike comforting treat he uses to feel good about his horrible life and at the same time there seems to be an association with like when they're at the Tulsi town, there's the to. For lack of a better term. Popular Girls He's afraid of and the one alienated loaner girl who seems to be like the comforting sweet one. So some association between that and like the social dynamics of. Feeling judged rejected by students or something. Right, so you did notice that the Tolsey town workers are the girls like are making fun of the janitor in the hallway yeah. Yeah and then other girl me scrolling through the film to figure to find out and I noticed the second time around the woman who's like kind of the alienated with Burns on her arms he's describing seen students later and seeing their sadness and they cut to that student walking around the high. School. Would you guys say that there's a reading of this film that is really sick like this is like a almost like sick horror film like where this guy he's creepy old guy that's just sit in the background with all these women and he's just coming up with these these his own imaginative. Women that he's like projecting all of his own desires and stuff on them. The ultimate Manic Pixie Dream Girl. While? He's also. Saying maybe I should just fucking kill myself to like. It's a weird of horror film to the Book I. Guess What Happens Is this janitor kills himself and they find his notebooks and all the shit is what he's been scribbling down in his August like nutcase and there's all these interludes in the book where before every Chapter Two characters talking about a horrific suicide. So I think and if you look up the book online, it's sort of marketed as a thriller horror whatever. So I think you're reading Ryan like does sound to be what the book is like intone. Gosh I've a friend who read the book and said that it wasn't even something that was unadaptable like the orchid thief. It was actually something that had a pretty adaptable tone that Kaufman just completely evaded for some reason because. If you look up this film on DB or on Google or something like that for the genre, it does say thriller. And and I almost threw my phone out the window and I saw that because I felt no thrills. I didn't like that I ruined me going into because when we got to like the Creepy Country House and I saw thriller my mind started filling in the blanks of all of these like horror and thriller tropes that I wish I. Meant. Yeah. Basement and the scratches I was really hoping that things were going to get interesting and exciting but that never really happened. What do we think about the dance number at the end? Stupid. I don't know I mean obviously. So many of these things are going through the lens of this janitor character who is seen you know Oklahoma however many times and internalize the dance numbers and all these things of musical theatre. it does sound like a big break from the book. In the book you just like locks, the main characters in a closet or locker and kills himself or something like that. So it seemed to be like it seems like the dance number is trying to dramatize like the death of the fantasy or something like that more than the bluntness of locked them in the lockers and kill yourself. Right, because the janitor is the bad guy of the dance number, he kills the. Jake Dancer Yeah and I I guess we're supposed to suggest that it's kind of like. The harsh reality of circumstance coming to kill his fantasy. I think. So yeah, like this you know lowly janitor destroys the romance and love and dance. Of these two fantastical characters, and because Charlie, Kaufman Charlie Kaufman couldn't just be some like blunt I guess murder seeing like it sounds like it is in the book once again, having read the book just read summaries. But now that that's the charitable reading or as Ryan says. To town it's on. All right I mean I could just point to weird things that happen in this movie and say, well, what do we think about this? But one of the things that it would be remiss of us not to mention his the. Erratic aging that happens when they're in the house. This to me felt a lot like. New York where obviously Philip Seymour Hoffman's character is really neurotic about his death really neurotic about creating some sort of meaning before he dies and this seemed to me to be just more of a very Kind of paranoid anxiety about aging. And aging process and but other than that I wasn't really able to discern. I guess anything to mind blowing from IT W-, did you guys get anything different to me the whole? the whole arc is about aging right because it's him at the end of his life being like what did I do wrong? I'm old now I wish I was young and I could make all these choices over again. So kind of to me the when it kind of goes when emily starts rapidly ageing, that's just every time catching up to him in his dreams kind of be like Oh. Yeah, I'm old enough. When we remembering back I think. It's established to imply that you know his parents died a long time ago. It's an old man now looking back on that. I think that's like a not completely unrelated unbelievable experience. If we try to remember people and it's and we we struggle to place like wait how old were they. Then what did they look like at this point life? Sometimes I haven't find it hard to like disassociate. How like apparent looks now, when I remember like childhood stuff like where they always this old were they young ones could they have been young ones know. MOMS. So that kind of dislike memory, the sort of disjointed nature of memory and I would say like ideas wise. That was something I found interesting before we learn a realize that it's a projection and not in memory but I guess with the parents is memory how disjointed those things can be in the way that certain emotions are attached to certain memories and states, and the way that the parents changed throughout seem to be like the trauma of childhood losing your parents and of watching your parents decay. Going off kind of random and non sequentially. In the book, it's also narrated from the perspective of the woman. And it is and I do know that in the book as well. The parents thing is not that doesn't happen. That's a that's a Charlie Kaufman invention like you kind of pointed out jared comparing it to a previous film on the the aging of the parents that whole scene I think in the book it's just like one tenths dinner thing with the parents yes it it's told through the perspective of the Jessie Buckley character obviously, it's not Jessie Buckley in book. How well do you guys know Oklahoma not at all? Relatively well, I they'd played it in my middle school a lot of my friends were in it so i. So is, do you see any relevance to him singing that Oklahoma? Song. At the end while he's receiving Nobel Prize I read after I finished the film. I I read something where apparently Apparently. In the play version but not the film version of Oklahoma there's that scene that he's doing where he's where another character comes in and basically says, why don't you just kill yourself or something to that effect and then he sings his whole song about being alone in his lonely room and so yeah and there's like a girl he doesn't get. I guess the character in the film is fantasize about getting the girl, but another character is who actually gets her. Something like that. So it's the league parallel with the film Kinda. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I wonder what this references and if you what y'all think about this, I mean because so much of what's happening seems like it's the random triggering of memories from like film and Literature whether that's a high school production of Oklahoma or a book by David. Foster Wallace or Holly Kale Yeah Pauline Kale a beautiful mind this random poet whatever it might be. Do we think. Did did y'all think that that? Meant anything. Do you think he's doing anything I mean I can imagine what your answer it'd be to this but he's the coffins doing anything interesting exploring this idea that like. I guess questioning a one way I looked into it is. Are we all just like this weird collection of the references of stuff that we watch and read and is sometimes is it like? Is there anything underneath that at times this this collection of references I do think he's that's essentially what he's getting at. He just picked the weirdest collection of references for one where it's like I. Don't think that his references for pop culture are in anywhere else anyone else in two thousand, twenty S. You know. Whatever but. What he didn't do. With the film with the is is do something like being there something where where where that film Peter Sellars the whole film is kind of about like This guy has been shaped by all of his pop culture references and this kind of sprinkled throughout and you're kind of like all right. You're basically it's a big character study on this old lonely sad man who has who has kind of Let his pop culture that he's consumed filtering through his life. But it kind of really didn't. It wasn't as much of a grand statement. It's something like being there. Makes or something like that. It just kind of like the part of life like, yeah. I watched some of the stuff and now it's in my memories and Is that statement I don't know. The thing the thing that really bothers me about that element is that. I mean this is something that you've seen a lot of woody Allen movies woody? Allen will have his muse whether it be Diane Keaton or Scarlett Johansson or a MIA farrow. They're always like vis idealized image of a woman named Drops Ingrid Ingmar Bergman or Mozart or like all these cultural references. But they're usually just surface level and you don't really need to know much about Bergman more Shostakovich or whatever to really understand what's what's going on or really understand the character. But with this one, you really need to know the specifics of pauline. Kale's criticism of Akasa that is moving in the seventies. On a basic level understanding what's happening in the plot and I mean. To be. Charitable, Charlie Kaufman like we do live in the age of the Internet where as soon as you're done, watching a movie on Net flicks. You can go on the Internet do a couple of Google searches and then you'll be in the know. Or are you going to cost? You can pause it figure that stuff out but I mean really. I. Think Ryan used the word pedantic and Yeah and I have to echo that as being just something that is just a little bit ridiculous to expect an audience, not only put that together but to be engaged enough to put together. No, that's. It is interesting. This Zaid note that when it comes to the references, it's always the. Plemmons character who is kind of the bullshitting seems to be misreading things or sort of pulling things that he only like NASA cursory knowledge of where the Jessie Buckley character seems to actually understand what she's talking about. which I think is kind of funny. The in this person's own projection and fantasy he's like this shallow idiot that only kinds of kind of gets things and his fantasy woman is constantly explaining things to him in a way that paints him as wrong. You wanted to bring up the Robertson Meka's mini movie yeah. What about that spoke? To be I just I found it very. It was like so disconcerting watching because we go from the aesthetics grimes talking dog this before like these weird flat aesthetics of the coffin universe and all of a sudden we're in like this brightly lit diner while two people have a romantic connection over the Santa Fe. Vegetarian. Zemeckis roles at the end. I did read that because I was wondering coffin like talking Shit and being like fuck using Meka's but I guess he okayed it with him or something. But is he not only team to provide some like contrast I guess between? The idea that there's old janitor is consuming Rom coms and leading dynamic effect his unconscious. But then his own projection is this dark gritty reality. He can't even allow himself to to fantasize about something that works out that well, but I don't. I don't know if the film needed that I don't I imagine that's not in the book. Yeah I read maybe it was that Atlantic article but apparently, the editor just as temp put into directed by Robert, Zemeckis Card and Charlie Kaufman thought that was funny and called the Meka's and got him to okay it but. I would watch MEKA'S BEOWULF and the polar express for twenty four hour. For watching this, this just took a turn I hate it I didn't know you hate it. I. I also would say that if anyone has not seen John, cavities is a woman under the influence that is an actual masterpiece such a good film you gotta see it polling Kale's wrong It's great to watch that movie instead. Did you notice that when I think it's right after they talk about that and I'm not saying this as it has a meaning or it makes the film good. Just curious I only noticed this the second time around. When they bring up Keyboard Society of the spectacle, the actress, all the sudden becomes a different person. Yes she becomes the woman. In movie right Oh shit. Sorry. Yes. there. There we go. I was wondering on morning who that was got the meeting showed to use sun the meaning has been shown. That's what I'm here for do I. Don't know I haven't read. Key to bore awhile was do we think there's any connection between choosing the moment of Discussing Society of the spectacle? To switch out the actress real quick or is that just didn't realize that moment? I mean I only know like the basic summer? Yeah, and of DEPOR. Not that I can yeah, I know that's the thing I think there's you can look at a scene like that and a charitable read could be like Wow Kaufman's hidden nuggets in there for me to uncover and explore and the uncharitable reading that you would have while riding the express for twenty four hours is like. Fuck this man why did you throw some weird stuff at me? None of this seems to really mean anything. Well. That's one of the things that bothers me because a lot of people will point to the picture that she looks at when she's in his parents home and she had initially looks at the picture and says opioid weird that looks like me and I guess a lot of people have read that it's like, Oh, well, that's your indicator that this that they are the same person that she's just a projection within his psyche but then there are other things like the Society of the spectacle actor change that doesn't really seem to indicate anything or like the dog shakes and he just like shakes on loop and the dog disappears and that all seems to. I guess you would say doesn't really have a concrete meaning that points to anything but his religious there to evoke a tone and that's where I guess my biggest criticism of the movie is that those quote Unquote Weird Moments That don't point to anything concrete within the narrative do not actually create that tone. Definitely not yeah I was sad did not see the border collies face they're such glorious dogs all I got to see the the shaking movement of it. Yeah, that was a real missed opportunity. Hi, I'm Erica Mandy from the newsworthy podcast where we break down all day's news in less than ten minutes and we know right now all the covid nineteen news coverage can feel a bit overwhelming. Our goal is to keep you updated in a way that gives you the facts and need to know information without causing unnecessary panic. We give you the serious stuff and the actions we all need to be taking, but we also remind you about the positive all in ten minutes each weekday just search for the newsworthy in your podcast APP or go to the newsworthy dot com. That's that newsworthy dot com. is there anything else you guys want to bring up before we go into our mailbag like in terms of the tone thing and I kind of this earlier but just I I have a similar problem about writing scripts where my brain just can't really abstract leaf look at a script as a whole and stuff I can write little scenes and stuff get characters down. But like Charlie Kaufman is great. Just kind of making these things that really fit altogether in it's a puzzle that every every scene fits and whatever however as a director I think he has the opposite problem that I have whereas director it's hard for him to realize kind of way when he's Doing a close of a shot or something that it's really magnifying whatever it is we're really paying attention to his brain doesn't have that I think he's such a writer that it's hard for him to take control and master the tropes of directing very well because it kind of makes them all over the place because his brain is all over the place. So yeah, I think that the other day after watching this is his mind I don't think is really tuned to directing I want to see more of it. I'm going to keep watching him I love him to death, but that's that's my hunch. God I think he needs to. He needs to be a first draft writer and then I think it needs to be rewritten somebody else. By somebody I agree exactly I with you. There I guess my really Kinda deep final thought is that I'm just so excited that because this is on Netflix of random people who've never seen a coffin movie before and maybe recognize like Jesse London's Toni Collette are going to start watching this movie and have a real fucking weird fifteen to twenty minutes before they go back to like great British bake off and I'm excited for those people. The funny thing is on Google Google this movie google. Has Their own rating system in which Google. Users can rate the movie on one to five stars and it's like sixty three percent one stars. I want to rent so much. I want the the literature of like Netflix. Random viewer coffin reviews I I. I just WanNa, read those all day. That was a little bit vindicating to me because if you look at the rotten tomatoes, scores has something like eighty five percent and usually I'm very self critical because when there's a divide between critics and audiences I'm oftentimes on the side of the creeks and I feel like such a pretentious shit for that but I feel very comfortable in this time I get to side with the peop-. People Right now, this is an exciting moment. So I'm glad. Worked out. Yeah the exciting moment look. There are so many other things about this movie little small details that we could pick apart and wonder is there any meaning to that but? I mean I feel like that would be an exercise in futility. Thanks Charlie Kaufman appreciate that. Yeah. All right. So we're going to head into the mail bag. You can send us a voicemail at two, one, three, five, three, four, eight, zero, seven. If you love the movie, you can tell Ryan I had to go fuck ourselves. and. If you hated the movie you could chime in and make us feel like maybe we're not the only ones I mean clearly, we're not the only ones but I mean look I like Charlie Kaufman to and at the end of the day I, revere his efforts but man, oh, man I'd be lying if I said I wasn't dying throughout this whole. All right. So last episode, we ventured into a video game for the first time and correct me if I'm wrong but Ryan and Michael you guys have not played the last of us part to you are not wrong. All right. So most of this mailbag is just GonNa, be me responding to this? So we're going to go into some emails. You can hit us up at movies at wisecracked DOT Co.. This first one is from Bruno about the last part two he says, personally I don't think there should be a third game. The story is over Elliot's grown so much character and I think she finally has the tools to keep growing and accepting the world she lives in. Honestly I didn't even want a second part after I. Beat the First Game I was still incredibly excited when part two was announced and I loved it becoming for part three is definitely pushing it in my opinion anyway loved the show and all the stuff you guys do have a great day. Well Bruno I definitely see where you're coming from here. I think that it would be a sufficient ending to end things where it lend off our were left off i. mean I really like the Character Valley and would love to see how she continues to grow and I'm also just a sucker for the game play of the of the thing and I think that they're still so much to explore with the wasteland of modern America during this crazy pandemic not talking about the one we in real life are in but in the one that they are in the game and I would still love to see part three but I definitely see where you're coming from. Aren't. The next one is from Matt. He says one thing you guys didn't touch on that the cut scenes cinematics were leaked a couple of weeks before release. So a lot of people's first reaction to the game was based on the cut scenes without having the context of playing the actual game I think the reception of the game would have been different if the leaks hadn't happened most of their view bombs on sites like metacritic on the day of release before people at time to play the game would love to hear your thoughts. Yeah. I'm not really very keen on the politics of you know review bombs and Leaks did not see any of the any of the leaks I can definitely see how it would be. A bit disorienting to see all the cinematics especially Joel Staff and You know the heavy emphasis on Abbey, completely unexpected. So I can see how In a vacuum, those leaks would be pretty upsetting however, I. Still think that a lot of the people who played the game and we're still disappointed I think there's a lot of justification for their opinions not that I necessarily agree. Are At this next one is from Brad, Brad says, I stopped playing the game. Once I had to start playing his abby I was so invested with Ellie improving her weapons for all of it to be. For nothing I, put a lot of time in gathering those materials and having to do it all over again. Felt like a slap in the face I watched the rest of the game on. Youtube. And glad. I didn't continue so pretty strong. Opinion from Brad, all right we are going to close this off with an email from geo-. He said just listened to the last of us to podcast when love to share my thoughts about what you said about what is the main reason abbey what to get the WWL F- flight that both part one and to show that the firefly's were idealistic and then the main reason they were formed was to oppose the militaristic government rule post outbreak born and raised in a group like that. It's safe to assume that abby was once an idealist who tried to be a hero in this after world. So in a way. Joel killing her father and destroying the firefly's took that away from her and made her harder and colder person not unlike how Joel Wasn't part one Abby Health Levin Yard because she was trying to regain what she lost the people that she loved her morals and herself when you are asks why she did it, she says, she did it because she needed it that was a redemption Ark at the end of the story she spares Elliott Dina and starts looking for the firefly's after spending an entire game telling everyone that if the firefly's existed in Santa. Barbara, she would go the other way I like this reading from Geo- that there is a redemption from Abbey and similar to jol who was kind of very jaded and cynical at the beginning of the first game. Abby is similarly very jaded and cynical because her father has died the association that had a very idealistic mission statement in the first game has also died and she's kind of stuck in this cynical militaristic group that is looking to do genocide and she kinda reclaims herself and her idealism through yarn left. So I like that reading. All. Right I think we're going to close things off Where can we find you guys on the Internet Ryan? My just released a short film today called Ryan's Tunica Casino Reviews I review every casino in Tunica. Mississippi, you can find that on Ryan shorts on Youtube and. FACEBOOK and all those places, Michael's or anything you'd like to plug on well I. You can find me watching those casino reviews because that sounds incredible. On twitter on Michael Burns, and if you ever want to watch me rant about philosophy philosophy stream philosophy rips at twitch dot TV slash Godsey Burns. WHO'LL OUR GUYS? We'll see you next time and I apologize if you really love. This movie. It's Ok that you like it. Fine It just ruined my day anyway. Why don't you take us out Ryan Goodbye Raw. Faking ending. All right guys.
#358 - Zachary Levi
"Finally on the empire podcast this week. We check a tangled web over Zachary Levi and slow down long enough to talk about she's Zam. I can't wait till the movie actually comes out. So we can talk. So we can talk about the. News and all this and more on the only movie podcast that what's the joker trailer and worried about the amount of bullying that clowns apparently suffer. Let's please give it up for clowns for a moment. Hello, I'm Helen O'Hara. And welcome to the empire podcast. Yes. I'm substitute for your regularly. Planned, Chris Hewitt. I'm afraid he's at the dentist. So instead, I'm joined by two other colleagues of such lethal cunning lethal cunning kind of like the joker like Batman villain. So our very own rogues gallery today, we have pilot man, aka James Dyer, whose fiendish superpower is the ability to mention another podcast in every conversation. He ever has Wellens phony sh- mention that because on the planet TV podcast this week will be dealing with the widow the victim and other things beginning with the great. Thanks. The dentist having let's be honest with canal, which you say, we're ongoing there's a whole west wing thing. Like a parody. We can roll into this week at him in next week. He's had wheat canal walk properly. Yes. But you are in this case you all the Josh alignment of sauce. So I will be revealing onto you just later today. The president secret plan to fight inflation. Happen. But of course, you're not the only one here. We also have a sidekick honest to James's pilot man, and is online lad, Ben Travis. His ability is to publish a new story extremely quickly like faster than a speeding bullet. But somehow like in a deadly way. I haven't quite figured out yet, but we can work Shelbyville slice. Right. Three. All the Twitter's. Which would you say you are? I mean, probably Michael Sarah Roman from the from the LEGO Batman. Let's be honest if ever anything, but Penfold, oh, I don't feel like he is kind of Robin ego. Look at that little face perennial. Hope. Actually like like Batman right now, Jim if. Really working out going. I'm looking for father figure and you're like, Nope. Nope. You own. Mary gray. So a madman. Well that actually brings me onto this week's question while segue. So this comes in from at Remi's gambit on Twitter, aka PJ, Willman he asks with Shiism released this week and Zachary Levi finally getting the movie he deserves which other actors known primarily for TV. Would you like to see take center stage in a big damn franchise film? I mean, the answer here is your cell there, isn't it? He's crossed over to film stuff. But it's never really worked. I'm massively welfare him. He still best known for Luther which let's face it the last two series when not good, I think. They're such a talented guy. And he's got so, much charisma. And he's so ready for some kind of big franchise that is not JAMES BOND. Kind of give him that kind of extra book Pistole clout because he's a he's a blockbuste- guy who's never really had a proper blockbuster like dock tower kind of less about that the better, and I feel like he's never quite made that late. Maybe you never know. Fast and furious helps in shoal he's playing a villain called Brixton a super powered eagle man fighting Jason safe and the rook which just sounds like the guy who have made. So that could be pencilled. Shush. You know, not of what you speak intracellular was the star. He's career peaked in the full star. Be is Molly game, boys. How could he ever possibly? Because of course. That's not a franchise. Thank goodness three star film. Helen, you say that now. But what happens when molly's next game is released Melies replay yet Mali's rematch. You'll be amazing. It's going to be three stars again. He was dollas. Well, I mean come on. Yeah. I guess. The by frost for fuck sake. Yet. He looked like he didn't want to be that the entire time. In fact, said in interviews h didn't wanna be there that he would rather go and be and Elsa Mandela a never have to pretend to be heimdahl ever again. So I just think he he is such a headlining name, and he has not quite like found that role. That's gonna give him that lake Kroll trip beyond. I mean who remembers cruel in star? He was in the whole thing as well. He's another like actor of color who joins a massive Sifi project. Guess slathered in perspex economy tell that is them. So I feel like that doesn't. Next minute booklets. Poros Carrozza still I'm still upset by that everyone. They make. It's like how did anyone look Raziq and go can we make him look? No hot. And that is how much you have to to him. I mean, it took a lot. But they did just get it's depressing James how about you. I would say having not prepared for this question really thought about it before this now Avery Brooks every every from Senju Cisco and start to space to be honest. I don't think I've seen since the finale of these base nine what we leave behind. We what we leave behind. And that was him. I'm sure he has been other things by seventy. I remember seeing him in a while. So what do you want him to do? Anything that requires him to be bold and sporting goaty that signs like another fast and furious. Absolutely. He should be the next false furious villain or giddy. Auditing they could he can be the goody love Cisco. They can introduce them as a goody and as bad and get them to do the worst thing possible. And then turn them into a good in the next film. Take almost anyone from the cost of space because you don't see many of them. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, where's where's oh. These days old Rene went. Where's gone? What's he doing straight? And so many of them have aged super well, either Dax would be fine. Don't share. She has a few things. He was game of thrones. He's well, exactly. It wasn't a game throw otherwise. He's okay. I'm sorry too soon. Okay. I think what we've said is the whole cost of these base should come together for a joint big-screen franchise. Okay. Big-screen knowing are just like a space nine film. I the time has come to their out of impasse with the Star Trek franchise right now, why not to space nine film stuff. Have you been working scullery him? I have been watching this country a lot James turning this into the pilot. Been banned from talking about Star Trek on this pilot TV podcast now just going to have to do. I know thank you. You have on the TV customer, frankly, Terry and both of whom bully me whenever I talk about Picard or the mandolin or anything to Star Trek. But like, I mean, I, you know, I'm hopeful both those other shows I'm not sanguine about felt like discoveries here, and we can see it. And we know it's discos the caucus cooling. I know they do I want the running top with disco in the front upsets me that doesn't then say very on the back like it to have both issued say on the back say should say black. We are so much better. At this marketing, how cool wins Star Trek spin on appreciation. We should do special. Should we should? But answer the question, which we were entering about sixteen hours ago started this I have an answer. Well, half of an answer. Give me a hall. I know the actors it relates to something we discussed the other week, which is imminent demise, RIP of supernatural that gives you that gives you three super hot men who look franchise ready for any franchise. You don't understand how I didn't see this coming. How? Royd flying tools the earth with threading inevitability. Dread. It run ferment super not just. Super not just I mean it had to come on. Yeah. No. That's absolutely fair. I think you know, that was destined desk deal. Big screen erotica is what kind of exceptionally shirtless franchises that. All shirtless could be could be now. That's interesting like magic, Mike three maj. Matching execs XL goalie. No, she genuinely I think it should the criterion should be. We need a franchise that has a lot of plaid shirts in it. We want them to feel at home. What franchise has lots of plaid shirts, some kind of lumberjack film. I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this Jackson cinematic, the kind of norm core wardrobe of the Bourne films. That's the kind of thing we should be going for Neum, call norm courts thing catch up is fashionably unfashionable me. Like what you see random debts wearing let me I'm I'm fashionably unfashionable like practical fleeces, and that that's so a magazine need to subscribe to. Magazine. Yes. Coming with the next issue of empire think so they could what start some kind of norm. Call heavy franchise. I didn't should be woods involved. I think it should be, you know, just like hiking. I'm not quite sure what the plot is. I feel like we can find something that we just give it a bit of a some kind of Bigfoot. Maybe I don't know this. This is kind of turning into through win that was too. He was in that say do old narrow nyc was. We asked him about it when we interviewed him for the poll anyway, so that's my answer. And I feel like we've conclusively. To that question entirely. Although we have lane the scenes for the newest in all empire pod universe. Jason heavens disco podcast. Yes, it's going to be the best ones going to them. I feel like it's an it for an episode expectance talk about this. And then you could be the tone disappointed. All my God. I would love to be a party to degrade. So many arms to do the Saturday Night Fever dance, you live from the my seal network is the discount. It's weird. How big target grades have been in cinema racing. Having a moment. Of course disco lot. There's a lot. And then miniscule biting time for so long. And finally getting the big screen representation. They deserve. Off. Wow. And on that note at Remi's gambits. I hope that answered your question. I'm so sorry. If it didn't if you'd like your question right out in the empire podcast. You can tweet us where at empire magazine and use the hashtag NPR podcast. We're also on Facebook where we are again. And her magazine, it's a bit unoriginal. But we're also Email lable that's word at podcast at empire, online dot com. Are right? So while we're on the subject of kind of learning things and unto in questions and talking about new stuff. Quick mentioned here for two other great podcasts at the right this week. Our sister magazine, q has recently launched their own podcast and this week. They're going to be joined by fat white family, which I know sounds like. On should have. Say stopping races. I know I'm John is and scientist. I know sickening bigot. I am fat positive. But you know, hey, bigger Recep sodas. Anyway, fat white family are in fact, of course, London born post punk band James as I'm sure, you know, well and their third album surf's up is out this month is had great reviews. So far that's surf with an e. So like, it's a play on words. So I like him already any other podcasts. Helmet you love promote well here James I'm going to law you to speak for no longer than thirty seconds on what's in pilot this one. No, no, I would like to see my time back to you. Because clearly as I subscribe and regular listener to politics podcast. You will have many many wonderful things as I about. And I would like to hear what you say. Only between you and Chris and you listen to all the time. Don't you all the time? Every week that convince just been producer giant. Listen to the policy cost. She's she's nodding that was disingenuous. Not unbelievable. Okay. Yes. On the pilots podcast this week. We will be delving into the new prime show. Although it was like TV hit the widow starring Kate back in sale. We will be joining Kelly MacDonald and John Hannah for the victim Aidan gillen drops by which hold him about project blue, which is very starting about queer as folk which is twenty years old this year. I try and find an episode of black books funny, and I will not spoil few. What happens is result that and we also do Toby Jones new comedy. Don't forget the driver. I lift Ivy Jones I love Toby Jones as well. So there's lots of funding hat on the pilot TV podcast subscribe to it immediately. I think that's great. And I will listen to it. He's lying. You should. All right. I think it's time for some news now, what's caught your attention? This week any anything big major. There was a whole thing wasn't event in Vegas. Yeah. There was the whole. Yes. All the big studios have been showing footage of a major coming releases. We lend the cats in cats going to be the size of actual cats. Isn't it like April first is passed? I thought for sure on the morning April. First, they'd be like kidding. Not a real film to be clear. They are cats the size of cats platelet people in mocha outfits, like cats who will get post production for added to them to make them into cats. Yes, giant sets. So that they are in proportion to their proportionately the size of cats, but presumably still on two legs because they're not actually cat cats are like, I'm. I'm. In boots style. I guess, but even some boots had like a cat form. You know, he would go down and foreleg. Sometimes I just I don't understand. I don't why it has no story and it's stupid. And what is it? Jellicoe cat. Why am I supposed to care? I don't understand Phil win not sufficiently cat positive on this. Okay. Well, you go be be cut. Pose? Absolutely. I'm never watching this film EPA. You couldn't pay me to. Against actual cats or about cats, the musical. Oh, interesting question. I. As a cold that cats all the vanguard of some kind of satanic invasion from the bowels of hell, that's I mean, a side note to this. But this this is I mean, I've never seen chasms Icho. I've heard bad things. Most of that was me increased though point you know, what I might love it. Maybe this is the new miss for me, but like lame as has a plot story Aleutian revolution. And which was set an slowly Hamilton weather. But like this has none of those things. Basically, this cat turns up at the beginning goes I'm going to send one cat to heaven. And then all these other cats turn up and introduce themselves, but instead of sort of going, hey, I'm a great cat. You send me to heaven. They all come along. And they go. Hey, I'm a big liar and a cheat. So the plot of this film is killing cats. But is it? I mean because nothing happens because they just come along and introduce themselves. What did it look exit -sential quandaries posed by feline protagonist? That's essentially what this is. But they don't actually deal with the quandary like the quandary is place there at the beginning. And then he Nord for the entire play. Memory Jennifer Hudson singing that so that's going to be good five worthy minutes. I'm interested in hearing that the rest of it. You'll see they didn't actually show any footage of this. I think they showed some like behind the scene stuff. So that people could see the oversize sets. But presumably they spend the next year working on these cats are actually gonna look not even a year. Right. It's out in December. Oh my God. Nine months. Wow. Yeah. But yeah, there was lots of the kind of fits those footage from Latin footage from X men Phoenix. And somebody from FOX kind of confirming that it's a farewell to the X men is people probably have long a would be after the FOX and Disney merger. Disney have kind of confirmed their plans to make more alien films. Whether that's in the sauve Ridley Scott permits ius verse or whether that's going the kind of nail blunt Cam and trying to sequels aliens or the earlier films will have to wait and see. But that's interesting, especially in the context of that Disney deal of women's going to go. Well, it's sort of. It's potentially good news for those who were worried about Disney completely shutting down anything over PG thirteen at the FOX end that would imply at least because you hope they're not gonna make PG thirteen alien movies that they're going to keep up the sort of adult content at FOX was so good. Yeah. I think even though all that talk about kind of yet that this is the end of an era for the X men. They did confirm as well that the the deadpool movies are going to continue as. As as they have been thing. That's going to be pretty good fit. This matter nature that character just shoehorn them into the MC and crack a joke about it will absolutely work. So yes, feels like a bit of a sign that Disney on gonna stop. These of our rated films being made. There was also endgame footage, which I have not read a single thing about because I am just I'm so in I'm so I just don't want to know more at this point. We'll I'm Ben on this. I read the people can hard big spoilers. So I've now avoided, but it's an all talk of wait does this mean we can discuss it right now. Yeah. I haven't seen. It haven't seen the trailer. I haven't read about the new footage. Okay. But like, I kind of said to people, I know Chris, and I don't have time to for their special. But we'll definitely talk about it on the podcast. And you're calling me a liar. Yeah. Well, I feel like if we don't wanna hear it. Then surely list, I wanna hear they wanna go in fresh because Helen there is no time gem to turn back time. So we can unknow these things. Snow? Well, we don't have it. David panels. I saw him do it. If you do it on your desk is actually true. I haven't affinity. All right, fine. So I could do that. But us you my wife, I almost feel like asking you to leave the room. I mean, I don't know what else to do. Okay, guys. Sorry. I guess we're not going to discuss the avengers. We're gonna get this. As long as I don't know anything more than I know now going into the film. I mean, there's a bit with the shaving mirror is really upsetting. Oh, no. No, no, sorry. See the media after I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What you know what we can talk about? It was that keen Phoenix. Let's talk about why the I taught Phillips joke came out what I was expecting. I couldn't tell you what I was expecting. But it wasn't that it was sort of taxi driver versus the joker. It's really quirky and kind of hard to pin down, and I'm not entirely shortest, but I'm actually fascinated which is real step up from could've crushing apathy, which what I had beforehand. So this is good as in. This is very promising looking like psychological drama thriller. Yeah. Crime movie, I think one of the things that getting a lot of people excited about this is the beloved Christopher Nolan films while they did was take the Batman story and put them into kind of these radio expensive crime movies, essentially, the happens, we'll be superhero films, and it looks like this is doing the same. But with those yet gritty seventy style altar driven cinema bit of school Sese. And then I'd say the trailer looks kind of exactly what. I was expecting from the early talk of this film was going to be. And I think it's just a promising sign that taught Phillips having directed this. And also co written it that they just whatever it is. They have a really clear vision of homes going to be allowed to just go and do it. And it looks stylish and dog and kind of weird, and yeah, I'm into it. And I think the thing that comes three most for me on this is they are absent one hundred percent certain on what they're doing is. You know, really clear vision for what they want from this. I think some fans may push back against that. They're looking for. But either way, you know, there's a lot packed with. I'm really interested in it. I have a few reservations first of all as a trailer really liked to as a trailer. I think it's really exciting. Does a really good job has great color pal? Actually looks amazing in terms of. It's just the way short looks beautiful. I've couple of major reservations my first one is a perennial one to joker movie, which is I don't think the joker should have an origin your about I've done. The joke should have a red nose. I sweat you. That's what I thought was coming. My main takeaway from the shadows. He should never read knows. He shouldn't have read now choke. It doesn't have a red nose. Why you have read knows what I mean. I hadn't even picked up on that James. But I guess you do you know, he shouldn't have an origin. And that's because in the COMEX he has never had an origin. That has been cannon for any length of time. And I have read the ones you're gonna throw at me. And I assure you they were not written as canon. Okay. So I worry that when you put something like this on film, people assume that that is your joker origin story rather than age ochre origin story, and I'm kind of not hugely damn with that in principle. I enjoyed the fact that he's legis jerk a plate with that. I really liked that was one of my favorite things in dark night. So I'm I'm not hundred sold on that. And then there's a threat on Twitter by Hallo Taylor. Hallo underscore Taylor. That's via Baker Whitelaw who writes for the daily dot which I one hundred percent cosign. She was basically talking about this sort of. The response to Batman films on the assumption from a lot of she said male film buffs, but is mostly men who see more Olympic guilty and masculine angst as markers of serious cinema. And I feel like this is going to be one of those films that like a certain type of film fund who hates me is gonna love. And and therefore that makes me worry the film, and I know that's not fair on the film. But I just I'm exhausted with it. So, you know, I just feel like this is going to be this incredibly dark serious masculine take on the joker. That really offers me. I suspect very little, but expect me to take it very seriously. I'm not sure if I'll be able to do that that said as I said, it looks glorious. I really like working Phoenix. I mean, he just gave the most amazing performance in. You're never really here. And I can't wait see what he does next and that sense. But I just haven't. Than Jared Leto coming. That is true. So sure I mean, if the people that you're talking about the people who watch the final season, the breaking bad, and we're rooting Heisenberg and hating on Schuyler the entire way it's that kind of like sympathetic to the male EKO angst again. And just like they assume that anything that is dark is inherently better than anything is up domestic which I fundamentally object to as a world view. I don't think that is true anyway, but I'm not going to judge film on the base of its funds. Others I would hate all Christopher Nolan films forever. And I don't or fight club. I would hate fight club and actually love fight club. So, you know, hey, what are you gonna do? For the fans there's a new car Apocalypse Now. Coming of final counts of Apocalypse Now. As opposed to the redux, and we'll see the you original and the school redux on the. Now, this is the final cut. We don't know. What's in it? But I firmly suspect to the end we will have absolute concrete proof that kinda cuts is a replicant. Really this time last. That he wasn't. It's going to happen. Wow. That's a that's a really nervous coming cinema. Soon. Isn't it is coming to Tribeca film festival of as this fortieth anniversary of puck lips now? So as well as being this new Kurt it's a four K restoration. And there's no other kind of screenings confirmed yet. But obviously with it being the Serie with Francis Ford Coppola having worked on this himself. It's going to get a wide release. Don't you worry? In New York, just cross fading. The last two story slightly the sort of four Kanus and the Batman nece anyone see one released the pack shots for the new four K editions of the button and she mecca Batman films. Yes. Great. I mean, there's been a lot of showy si- tweet about last to this. My first Photoshop was bandied around quo. I mean, let's see what they were going full. They all they would think that and the chief they may have. I mean, the thing that bugs me the most is that there are multiple characters and each one on the cover of Batman and Robin. There's no fucking Rovan, but you know, nipples heavens found them. Well, they're not super great. All they think it's just because we live in a time of lake such amazing alternative arts and Fana and amazing designers like Matheson, people do these really kind of gorgeous, alternate takes. And then you see that. And it's chance when they do these reissues to bring some really amazing new arts. Yeah, that's not. It's that's gonna know students bedroom wall that those are I mean, Batman returns is probably my favorite film. And even I'm not tempted to buy that. That's I mean, let's face it. The the Posta going all the new students walls is going to be the joker poster. That is probably true. I mean, we've got no this why because you wouldn't let me discuss avengers. We've barely discuss marvel atoll in that won't stand. Obviously so quick shutout captain marvel this week passed a billion dollars worldwide median dollars DOC's office, which is a big screw you till the people who decided to give it negative chat in advance. I guess it did. Okay. Anyway, guys. So sorry about that water. Shame. I guess you'll try again with the next one on probably the next one the it'd be trying with will. Of course, be black widow. And there was casting news today for that rather. Tasty casting us in the shape of Rachel vice and David harbour, apparently in talks to join the film, the hell boy crossover was unexpected. The hell show crossovers great. We also know that Florence Pugh will be in there. But we literally don't have any other details because you know, marvel hates details or information or admitting things that's a crazy. Good cast though. Rachel vice of the back of another amazing performance in favor. Just the prospect of Herod a mobile film is very exciting and Florence Pugh. Just absolutely killing David harbour seems like he's doing really well in the hell boy film, les, especially considering he's not run Poelman, which is a difficult thing to be when you're in a hell boy film from what we've seen of him in the trailers. I think he actually looks really good. Yeah. Just like bring it on a I think, even though the whole prospects of the black widow film feels a bit belated at this point all of these extra additions to the cast just make it increasingly more exciting and something that are really wanna see. Yeah. Definitely so long that continued, of course, cake Shortland directing that one which is which is good news as well. There was also exciting news. About an upcoming film. And that was a Kira which I feel like we've been talking about a live action version of Akira for approximately twenty years. Definitely. Yeah. I definitely wrote stories about it on the website way. And it's never happened. And it still like might not happen. But there's big people involved Leonardo DiCaprio and takeaway TC are working on it. And if there's anybody who wants to be working on your care movie. Shirley, takeaway, TD comes pretty high up the lists, aka the voice of eighty eight in the Mandal orien-. I mean, that's not I would see. I feel like most people might know him as say, the director of ragnarok and hunt for the wilder people Molson's Coorg, even but sure you do it's interesting timing of with alita having done. All right, but not amazing at the books office, but also being one of the mall. Well, received of Mangga an anime adaptations in that of live action form, the maybe people kind of. Yes, still thinking new ways that you can take these animation based properties and actually deliver them in a satisfying way on the big screen talking that I realized speed racer the other weekend living mental. It's absolutely nuts. But the good stuff in it is incredible especially because the bits a- so intentionally choice that it's you lose all sense. It's not like they tried to go didn't work. They did exactly what they were trying to do with that. Why would they try? Do that. Oh, spend the rest of my life figuring out. But this I mean, the hopeful stuff with us. So obviously, I think anyone who is a fan of the anime film would be worried about an Akira remake the good news. Is that Tyco IT knows what he's doing? I think and he has said some really important stuff like you don't need to remake that film. You can go to the vast sum of books and do something from there. It doesn't have to be the same story. There was a bit of concern. Because one the reasons this came out was that the productions been granted, I think eighteen point five million dollars in tax incentive to film in California. Which makes it sound like they're doing the sort of Americanized version of the story that people have always been a bit wary of, but again Tyco who is no stranger to diverse representation in film is talking about casting Asian American teenagers and getting that side of it. Right. So you know, we've got hope for the best. I think I hope right? I'm with you. Let's hope for the best. Maybe. Tyco we trust in takeaway trust. And on that note, we should probably wrap up the news that we can't we can't because Groot to be an avatar. Yes. Now playing home Trie. Well, we saw this picture, right? If VIN diesel with. Yes, Cameron saying that he'd always wanted to James Cameron and saying that he now wall. So I can only assume that he is also sequel now, obviously, I would love it. If he was playing mother, However, I don't imagine that his now they finished the motion capture aspects of the secret is point. So they're looking at live action, which obviously leads to believe that he we playing one of the human possibly antagonistic type interesting really imagine VIN diesel as a so of big craft growly military men and James Cameron film that seems like a really strong. Yeah. Fits, and if I mean, I guess oh, we know if the live action stuff from the first film was that it was military. So a wonder if they continuing that threat, and if they are. He feels like a really good fit for that. Well, we've seen him in action and seven private Ryan in a more Sifi vein in the Riddick films. You know, it seems kind of natural. When will we see these films James will they ever actually come on will come? Okay, we'll come and as much as a lot of people still going interested in secret believe me when they start showing surf, and then when you revisit the first film in remember, how much fun is people are going to be excited are people going to be as James Cameron's memorably put it shitting selves with their mouths wide open, though, I will be so feel free to join me and. I'm going to be missing that screening this year. I'm Ben on this the vertical time for the top bat. Lash when people call anytime, Ivanhoe have its hall was fine Belotti tastic. It's really really really good. Please go back and rewatch it because he's fantastic. No, I'm sorry. I'm in the same camp. So this is a boring agreement avatar love and now. All right. So I think it's probably time to volun-. Hello everyone. It's me Chris Hewitt's, just but in temporary lead to tell you this week. We are delighted to be sponsored once again by the economist, the legendary magazine that's over one hundred and seventy years old as a whole load of candles to blow out to put that into. Some kind of perspective empire is only thirty years old this year, and I myself ammonium mirror twenty-five. Anyway, we have an incredible offer for empire podcast listeners a free print issue of the economist. It's an incredible offer it unlock a veritable treasure trove and Latins cave of articles about economics. Politics, entertainment, a much much more one article that caught my eye and the most recent edition dated March. Thirtieth fact, vans really nailed my obsession with the robot uprising will ultimately see is also planted and leads the birth of Skynet. You know, I figured they'd come for a weapons I didn't think they would go for our coffee, but there's a really interesting fun article about how robot barista's are becoming a thing. There's a coffee shop in Shanghai cold ratio. Where a man named Gavin path. Roles has invented a robot. Barista canal orders perfectly and produce one hundred cups of coffee an hour with no mistakes was also an American chain called coffee house that's on the rise. Now, this is all well and good. But it won't be too long. Surely before we're being forced a service baristas for grumpy robots in oil shops, how many shots at Castro with that one, sir. Anyway, if you wanna get your hands on a free print copy of the economist and still. Relate your mind, grapes. All kinds of great stuff. It couldn't be simple. Just text the word movies to the following number seven eight zero seven zero and soon you'll be expanding your mind an occasion didn't catch that that word again is movies movies in at number again, seven eight zero seven zero say with me seven eight zero seven zero. There we go. Thanks once again, the economist for Spungen to show. Don't forget to pick up your free print copy, courtesy of the empire podcast. No need to thank me. Okay. That's it for me sorry for the intrusion. Now, it's back to Helen industry. And you know, one I bet you doesn't even say, thanks, Chris some people. Okay time now for a guest as Acharya Levi won the hearts of yours as Chuck Bartelski. The inept super spy in Chuck anybody for our ears as Flynn rider entangle, the best Disney prince really apart from maybe prince, Eric who retains a spa. Place in my heart last year. He played a sarky doctor who was dating the marvelous MS Mazel, and now he's aiming to sort of have all our other bits fall in love with him as the star of Zam. It's the story of a foster kid by Asher angel who gains the power to turn into basically, Zachary Levi. But with like superpowers, so we sent our very own superman. Hang on who wrote this. Okay. We sent Chris alone. Sees. Jeez. Oh, yeah. I sound amazing. Usak are pretty good about it. I think we both sound very sexy. We have that. I don't think I've ever sounded sexier actually, ma'am. No, you're channeling the sexiest pretty much. Am delighted to be joined on the podcast by the star of 'schisms Zachary Levi? How are you, sir? Doing really? Well. Thank you. I am a little jet lagged. Okay. We just we just flew in yesterday morning. And that trip is always no matter what I can never get across the Atlantic without feeling like I've just been punched in the face, and I'm on another planet. Yeah. But I I'm always happy to be able to come back to London and particularly under such circumstances. This promote the biggest thing I've ever been a part of and such a fun joy filled movie where I get to play the big kid in me. You know, it's it's pretty groovy gonna start though by saying you are having a meal at ten nineteen am and your have your meal. Well, yeah. No, it's the second breakfast. We'll be after this. And spreading exactly no. I just I genuinely have to kind of eat all day long, which which for some people like well lucky all day long. But no, yeah. In this transform ation that I've really kind of gone under which has been incredible. And I'm so grateful for specifically of you know, being in the gym six days a week and eating tons of calories in order to put on mass to fill this. You know, fill the shoes of this character of Shas AM and try and maintain all of that, you know, hopefully, the movie does well enough, and we'll have some sequels or something like that. But in the event that that might actually happen. I wanna be prepared. I to be ready to go. I wasn't gonna let all of that hard work goes away. So that'd be like, oh now, I gotta get back into shape. No, no, no, no, no. I'm going to keep this train rolling. That's fascinating. Because I have mentioned if me I have no willpower whatsoever. As you can see just by looking at me. But the second this second they called on the last day of filming. I'd. Just give me ten burgers. I didn't enjoy. I did enjoy myself once I of was finally able to loosen the reigns of it if you will. And I still, you know, enjoy cheat meal here and there, and you know, certainly enjoyed my cheat tequila which I g with two more often than not deployment on the cheap poor tequila all over the cheap meal. Yeah. Exactly. Just pizza. Oh my God. And amazing. No. No, no. But but but truthfully, I having gone through all of this. I I'm healthier and stronger than I've ever been at thirty eight years old. You know, I am really grateful. I'm just I'm grateful for I'm out in my life. I'm grateful for this film, ungrateful for what it's meant to me already with come out yet, and it's already paid such great dividends in my life. And so yes, I'm very tempted to obviously want to consume mass amounts of carbohydrates because they're just have been, but but beyond that. No, I don't I don't really feel that temptation to be like, all right. Finally, I can stop doing this thing. That's been so good for me. Like, I feels good for me. So I wanna keep doing it euros in good shape. We try when we when you shook my hand as I walked in you need to crushed it. Okay. Fantastic. Aiming for judge just I'm just aiming that the person understand just how strong our no the power. When you pull you pull the hand in, you know, like presidents of like heads of state, whatever they give you if you're the one who get your hand pulled to the other person. Apparently, you're in the week seats I but yeah. But but but it's a fine balance. I've crushed few hands in my day. And then there's medical bills, of course. Yeah. It's a whole thing. Do you have a person who tells you who you're shaking the hand of someone to whispered new era? From the podcast. Well, my publicist. I mean, obviously, you should've been immediately jumping in going almost. Honestly. No. Nope. Gordon house saying smiling nodding smiling? Yeah. Well, that, you know, my publish this obviously helps with all of those types of introductions. But no, I tried to be as present and informed as I can because I wanted, you know, I think it's important to I think it's important to be here. And now and respect the fact that we all have a a place in this world and a job to do. And I just love that as an actor. I get to go keep hopping in and meeting so many fascinating people. I mean like as an actor when you're successful in blessed enough to keep doing this stuff. You get to meet so many cool people and do so many cool things. So I try to be you know, just as cognizant of that as muscle. Everyone's gonna story. That's right. Everybody does have a store. Yeah. Everyone's consulting. You might use at some point down the line. Yeah. You never know. You never know. The reason I was talking about your handshake, and the fitness and everything is because you know, the the suit is amazing this film. Thanks couldn't you've cheated a little bit. Well, I guess I could have because I'm in the suit the whole time, and it provides some Augmon tation and contouring whatever fine. Yes. Sure. But that will. But it was more. It's it was honestly kind of more my own just personal conviction. I I wanted I know that there were some fans out there and probably still are fans of the captain marvel Shas AM character and lineage and the various iterations that we've seen brought to life in the various comics. You know, those fans see this. You know, massive dude who is supposed to rival superman. And when they see the guy who played the nerdy, you know, computer, fix it cat at a by big box store for many years. They're like, wait a minute. You know, this doesn't seem right. This isn't right. And which is a bummer because obviously, it's like you're hoping that you get these rules based on your ability to play the. The character so much more. So than whatever the aesthetic is which you can build would you can change would, you know, even Henry Cavill from what before he got superman to now has built into that character. Everyone does end song. I'm grateful that my bosses saw in me. They're like, oh, you've got the special sauce to bring this fourteen year old to life. I'm just a big man child. Really? That's how that will work. But and then they knew that I you know, I could I could go and put on that massacre. Go do that. So just on a personal level. Even though I knew I was never gonna have a shirtless seen. I wanted to know that I was putting the work into onto the character to honor the franchise and honored in these fans who I understand that might have concerned or whatever that is. It's like, okay just know that I'm doing all the work that I can do, and I hope that that's enough for them to feel seen and and appreciated a know that you know, we're all putting in the best effort that we can. So how did this come about? How did you showcase you're in Amman child? To Justice, basically showed up and was myself. That's what I that's what I did. Now. I mean, I look I've always had a lot of optimism or tried to certainly. I've always been a lover of joy and purveyor of joy. I really have always I think that's why I became an entertainer. I really liked bringing people joy, I like I like making people laugh, and and sometimes, you know, going really deepened dramatic and pointing shining light on other other stories, but I've yeah, I I was just having into really kind of my own enthusiasm. You know, I- Billy Batson. The shows AM is a superhero is very rare. I think in all of comic because there are very few superheroes. That are stoked to be superheroes. That are actually like like really having a good time where it's fun for them. Billy Batson one of them. Peter Parker is another. Then I start running out of examples. Everybody else is an adult, and they're very serious, and they take things very seriously, and I didn't have to do that. And so therefore I didn't have to rein in my own. Literal wish fulfillment enthusiasm of like, I get to be the superhero that I've always dreamt of being like like the kid in me that has always being super hero gets to. Now. Do this the actor in me who is wanted to play a bona fide superhero is getting to do this and all of that. I would hope should make you feel pretty frigging good and smile and the joy of that. And so I just tried to take all that and funneled into the character. And then also, you know, look at my my young co-stars, who are so talented an awesome. But also, you know, very truly fourteen fifteen and look at them and go, okay. Like, how do I absorb that energy in? Then I was like, oh, that's right there kids, they have no responsibilities. That's how they're end up able to be so silly all the time. So I just tried to kind of drop some of that responsibility off my shoulders and and lean into being silly. And I think all of that kind of helped hopefully, yeah, can you tell me through the progression of the kind of the process for you. From addition I didn't turn up in his suits. What if I did? That'd be amazing building my own. She's like, wow, that's impressive that costs gentleman. Your search is over. No, well, the the the process was kind of interesting in in that about two months prior to getting the job I had been given an audition or an addition had been set up for me by agency to go into dishes for the roller Suzanne, and I knew at that point that the rock Dwayne the rock Johnson to clarify because people. Give us with an actual rock rock. And I knew he had already it had already been announced that he was, you know, potentially going to be black Adam. And anyone who knows I knew enough about the comics the black adamant and Shas AM are essentially d'appel games. They just have different color schemes because they have different stylists apparently. And so I was like, wait a minute. You want me to audition for a character that is supposed to inferior potentially look identical to Duane the rock Johnson as I have too much hair for that. There's no way I'm going to be able to know it just didn't feel right. And so I thought I might be wasting everybody's time and like thanks, but no, thanks all let this one go. Then a couple months go by I addition for an entirely other role in the film supporting role put myself on tape on my cell phone sent that in and David David f Sandberg our director, Peter Safran, our producer and the folks at new line and Warner Brothers. Also, this and said, wait a minute. We think he could be our Zam. I thought the role had already been cast by that point and it hadn't. And so then I was very befuddled. Excuse me. I'm might be right for this. And then and then through the next week. I mean, basically that it was a Friday. And then the very next Friday by that point. I had done all the camera testing and everything I needed to do to now be cast in the role of Shas AM in through that. I learned a tremendous amount. More about the character in the lineage, and also what they were looking for had I known or perhaps, maybe better questions, two months prior. I would have known that they were looking for more of Tom Hanks big an actor that can bring that to life in a more most believable way. And they and obviously the ascetic is important, but we could work on that. And so once I felt that in clearly felt felt very strongly because they gave me the job those idiots. I can't believe. It's done. So yeah, that was kind of the whole process of the dishing, and and finding myself in this role and continuing daily discounting, my blessings and very very grateful. And and and honored I mean, I know that sounds kind of lofty of a word, but I do think it's important to understand that you're you're given an honor when you are given a job like this. I mean, I think maybe any job is kind of an honor. Because somebody's seeing in you that you have a worth and an ability to do with thing. And they're trusting in that, and they're gonna give you money to go and do that thing. So that's cool in and of itself. But the fact that these characters, you know, this Mike characters been around since nineteen thirty nine that's a long eighty years of people loving this character and some version of this character, and and keeping it alive and buying the comics, and you know, I I don't think you should ever take that lightly. I think you need to appreciate the fact that there have been plenty of the people that have been invested in this. Factor in this world far longer than you and to to bring that to life as best you can and honor all of them honor the role and honor yourself in that, you know, I think it's a it's a it's a very it's a very heady surreal, but super coal responsibility. That I am grateful to to have I'm doing a spider thing to this with with David on Peter as well. The the county edition will become really say who it is. But it's you know at the at the who. Yeah. And who with? Which is cool given that actors connection with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Going on do there were so many. I know I can't wait till the movie actually comes out. So we can talk about. So we can talk about them. Who's in the moment? And. Yeah. That'll that'll be that'll be nice. It'd be nice for all of us to talk about. It. Also, be nice for all of them to be able to talk about it. But yeah, the amount of strange coincidences and a history not just for between me and others. But also just their journey within various. How do we talk? Yeah. So it's very very cool. You said this is clearly the biggest thing you've you've been involved with. Yeah. By far, you do have loan association with the MC you or one of the few actors to kind of straddle both China and haunts is another one. Yeah. He's in two JiJi, both captain marvel. I mean, that's that's pretty impressive, the connective tissue. Diagram is. Marvel. Which is really really cool, but your experience of the MCI to give you something to take into this. And what was that experience? Like because I I guess I'll be planned find drawl you nearly enthused. Didn't quite work out. Then you in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, look the the broad strokes of it all is. I am so grateful that Kevin Feige and Kenneth Rana because he directed the first one and cast me in the first one, though, I was not able to do it because of my schedule on Chuck that, you know, wouldn't Kenneth Brana says I like you and I'm going to and and doing British accent too. I was like oh my God. Really good. If Kenneth Braun. So all of that was Super Bowl. And I was so grateful that I got to even have that turn. And that, you know, Josh Dallas who I think did a great job in the first one. But then his schedule got wrapped up with once upon a time the TV show he was doing. So then it came back to me, which was like, really crazy. And then I was living here in London for six months when we were shooting dark world, very cool. I, but I would also say in and to answer the first part of the question. Yes, I learned a lot from that. But I think we learn a lot from everything we have the potential to learn from every experience in our lives. So what I learned in that world was kind of like that was the biggest movie set and production and everything that I had ever been a part of and seeing all those moving pieces, and, you know, massive action sequences and all that jazz. Like, it was real. It was really really cool. And also, Chris Hemsworth was a great kind of example. You know, like, I appreciate it. How he carried himself on said, I appreciate it. As humility. I pr-. She did the work that he put into the role. I, you know, seeing him doing a lot of the things that I ended up ultimately having to do during during an which was working out on your lunch breaks and eating tons and tons and tons of calories. You know, all of that. And he continues to be I think Chris is quite inspirational, particularly in the whole world of fitness and being healthy and strong. I just I really really lie love how he's leaned into that and his own that. So I, yeah, I gathered from all that, but una creative level fantail, the dashing, though, an awesome archetype, you know, swashbuckling Douglas, Fairbanks kind of letharic. Oh, awesome. Awesome role to be able to take on. We didn't really have that much to do. You know, the warriors three I think could have been a a really a lot more fun had been had. They leaned into it being like, oh, let's do. Let's do a team movie. Even in the first one in the second one. But we were kinda more comic relief in the Kenneth Branagh film. And then in Thor. We got some cool stuff to do. But there wasn't that much to do. And then in ragnarok, we were really just Aker official lambs. So that was interesting. But I look in the moment I felt a little bummed because I felt like oh, well that was that was my chip Dr played my superhero, chip, I gotta spin at the wheel. I got on the board grateful that I got on the board wish you could have been a cooler, you know, little stint, but plenty of people that never make it into any of the universe's. So I was still very very grateful for that. But you know, a little disappointed, and but had I known that that was all part of me. Ultimately, you know, if I had not died in the marvel universe. There's a good chance. I'd still be potentially under contract when I when the versus an came around. And maybe they would have said like, oh, you know, you can't go and be that guy because we still might need to use you as fans like life adventures or just becoming dust win Thanos, which would have been totally my fate. It would have been not only gonna hold onto you. And then we're gonna find you to Atlanta. And then you're just so you can disappear and it's like. I'm glad we did that. So it all worked out, you know, I'm so stoked that I got to be a part of the moral world. I'm well. Well, chuffed that I am on my now Britain. I'm that. I've now been reborn as my own hero as my own leading titular character. It's it's super cool one less thing for LEGO over I go one of moves. Let's both leave the microphones running and just silence. There was a gift good. It's been a gift going around Twitter recently of a scene from believed, the captain marvel movie that came out in the thirties or forties afraid for superhero of for superhero movie of captain marvel just straight up murdering to just grabbing them and throwing them off the Bill building. Yeah. Was there any discussion about incorporating into your? Straight up murdering guys. No, no that. No. We didn't. We didn't. Discuss that. Didn't need to be discussed because it's just in the character, just murderous rage. Yes. So the black and white captain marvel that was like kind of some cereal. It was the first time they'd ever been tackled in. In fact, it was the first superhero to ever be in feeders. But wasn't a feature length film. Serialized kind of you know, they would play a lot of shorts before feature links and all that stuff. And yeah, this is well before we had any of the goal special effects. We have right now. So his flying was really just like probably him hitting some kind of a trampoline, and then like jumping into the frame, and then picking up these gangsters, you know, late thirties early forties. So it was those are the bad guys day. Like, yeah. Yeah. Same. We're gonna get you say, and you know, these guys throwing them building. Yeah. Exactly doughty read. So. Yeah, that that was clearly a very kind of different take on it because and actually, you know, the character Billy Batson, captain marvel at that point win. Billy Batson said the words Zam he transformed into a version of captain marvel that was very much indulgent this version of this more modern version where even though I transform into what looks like an adult. I still possess. My fourteen year old self inside much more like the movie big. Yeah. That's something that they kinda played with and then have kind of leaned into over the years, and I'm really grateful that they did. Because I feel like look they captain marvel originally was essentially just the superman rip off, and and Fawcett comics got away with it for a while. I good on outsold superman is incredible. Then DC was like, no, no, no. And they sued them and they won. And then ultimately faucet went under in DC bought all of that. You know, the the kind of cat. Log from faucet. So then you had essentially superman and his dople ganger of in many ways in the same universe. Well, if that's like redundant. That's your you have two characters that are way too similar how how do you make a fun creative seeing that's interesting and have it 'cause you need different characters to do that. So I'm really glad that they leaned into the child likeness of of the character because that gives me way more to work with and so much more fun than funny. Everything that comes from that fantastic is been an absolute pleasure. It's now ten forty time for another meal. Yeah. I think so sorry leave I think he's very much. He's been playing. Thanks, president Watson nice fellow. So we might as well. Start the reviews section with his them. So as I said, this is the superheroes story of a foster kid who can turn into superman and the latest from DC films and probably their funniest and lightest yet. So he wants to start meal funches them. She's it's really fun, which is something you couldn't say about DC films. A little while ago continuing good streak from Akron, which was obviously a whole lot of movie and all kinds of ridiculous, but it was enjoyable and she's them. Yes. It's just a really fun. Kept Lavalle is I think vase intone, quite it. Feels like a filming three quite distinct. Pause go. I'd say relatively slow build up. You get a. Yeah. Really build up. It's got quite moody atmosphere on the opening and the opening acts then you get the middle acts when when's Acharya Levi comes in? And it just turns into a full on superhero comedy, which really really made me laugh. Did you guys find it funny? Yeah. Me too. I like the lightness of time in the same with the I enjoyed dot com. Because it wasn't moody had a nice lightness time. This hasn't even lied to hut town. It's deliberately comedic, and I think it was as you say, but it's it's an interesting division because it starts in a quite serious and was quite profound in the way, it sort of layers the shoe say antagonists origin story that was really interesting, but it's the kind of big s kind of eighties capability in the middle before the that's the only squad generic that act. The Iranian joy, look, I enjoyed him interacting with his foster brother the anything. I would say is actually Andrew who plays Billy Batson, aka the junior version of this. Character is kind of a slightly sullen submit. Submit -i child. And then when he becomes Shehzad him. He becomes reliever who is the most if you sieve full of beans Vic child I've ever seen in my life. So this disconnect between the two versions of the character. And I thought it was quite interesting. The two of them didn't really interact while making this film. So I wonder whether those could blend it's that said Zachary Levi's energy, I think is what makes us film work like he as so much fun, and he saw a few sieve, and he's so excited just to be sure. Sam and have these powers that you can't help being swept up with that. I mean, I really agree that there is a disconnect that I've been wondering about this. If that was to an extent a bit of a choice. The Billy Batson is katie's Radi hard life. He's in the foster system, and he kind of rejecting everyone around him. And then when he gets to literally be somebody else with superpowers, it brings joy to his life. Yeah. There is an element of carrots to that show. Zachary Levi, the central section of the film is Levi playing off against Jack Dillon Grazer who was also in the most recent film. He was the kid with the with the inhaler with this of neurotic mom, and it's I Carman the namely Ariza, remember. When those two playing off each other. They are so much fun. And it really pokes fun at the tropes has lots of bits of fun improvise Asian it does a lot with that setup of what if you're a teenager inside Nadal's buddy, and the ad was a superhero and of testing the powers Oliseh fee seeing the trailer basically Middlesex on so it's funny because this is a film that felt to me when quite risky because it's coaches, I'm he's got a great big gleaming lightning bolt on his chest. You know, it's not it doesn't fit in in any way with the Y that kind of survive the DC, and that's fine. And that's any decent. And it's a time thing. And I think this for me feels like an achromatic who study actually feel like this the cutting point where I've said like we are rejecting this Welby tried to create with creating now standalone independent things with their own five mythology and all the better for it. Because they don't have the baggage to be kind of already started out with wonder woman, which already moved away from. They stopped wished in Batman v superman, but I agree completely they've stopped worrying about how do we make this quite of dark university rural and how to make each film work on its own merits. Yeah. Into the characters and the tone of each character individually because that's what made the mobile films. It wasn't in trying to homogenize them case. A who is this character on the page? Let's just do that a not shy away from his comic book Innis. And she's I'm does that. I think it's all about two four it for me. I thought it had really nice kind of goonies like tone in all those in though, the scenes with them together in particular, an older foster kids final the foster family is is really beautifully drawn even a few scenes, I think they're really regret young actors and just beautiful writing there. My only slight reservation in terms of this is a family film is it's quite scary at times there is a boardroom scene with the bad guy. That is genuinely quite freaky and certain aspects of the bad guys personality are really unpleasant. And so a feel like they've kind of maybe limited the rodents a little bit, you know, to lower Adrian drainage could have been lower young intone. But then in subject matter of inappropriate hall to pin down what their ideal. Going for the kind of goonies field because the good news and some of those films gremlins and stuff when you are actually quite disturbing at time. So I think they're kind of if you can handle those you'll be fine with this. But do Barrett mind if you have young or nervous kids that you're planning to take law next to Helen in the screening? Oh, yeah. I think I agree that that's probably an issue for people wanting to take kids to this. And maybe you should go and see on your own I and judge whether you take them, I think the older audiences and for me, I've left har- film. So I was really pleased to see that David f San book that director of this who his other kind of big studio films lights out Annabel creation. Brings those instincts in the moments when he needs to anyway is quite genuinely scary. So I think if you like his previous films, and if you like horror stuff, and you probably like those moments just wonder whether you should take kids to go and see them. Yeah. It's it's not full on hard to be clear. There are some disturbing moments. I liked this foam a law. I mean, we gave it four stars. If I'm honest. I think maybe a touch generous. I've probably got more for three many because I think when it's funny. It's funny. It's not a lot funny. I think it's never quite as charming. I think it wants to be either. And I did fail that the third act in particular strong who is fantastic in all things including this. I think he didn't have an awful lot to work with. And I felt like it didn't really deliver. What I needed for the conclusion, I really like thing that happens in the third. I'm not going to discuss. Yeah. See I didn't love it as much as you think. That's really good on a really like that thing. And I think that's a good decision to for film this to take. I think is really interesting for. For the future. What that gives us to work with so living up thing. You may not like it in the way that maybe I didn't like it. But we're not going to you. You don't know don't see the film to find out. Indeed. So four stars then for which is a recommendation next up. This is a remake of a Stephen King add up tation pet cemetery which is the story of a mysterious burial ground, which brings things back from the dead. Only are they as they ever wear perhaps not James tell me more. So this is Kevin cultural Dennis whitmire remake of pet cemetry. The most let's be honest upsetting. Stephen King books. The original film of this traumatized me as as a young. So I was very excited to see this been made. I think this they've made a few shall we say I'm going to get around this little bit met a few key changes to the story on the basic fundamentals of this cell, the Sime wear a catch dies and thanks to a little bit of mystical hokum in cemetry comes back to life as an cats and then later on a child dies, and while you can kind of see what going now that made some interesting changes. And I understand why they made them I think partly to shake this up. I'm partly to change the nature of the threat here, and it works to an extent like a lot of the base of the same. There's a big instant with a truck which were familiar with incident with a razor. Basically the stuff that I've been having nightmares about since. So the first film, but the problem for me on they didn't hang together these better shot than the original films interacted, the original film, just a horrible didn't sit quite right for me. I watched this with Chris he enjoyed it. I think a lot more than I did he review this gave it three stars. I think king Donna halts might take issue with the key traits. But also, the weather's film ends because ends on a slightly different the ending. I think you might be right. I don't think about the plot to us not only because Chris is a king is he didn't too much object to I have read the book can really liked. I like a lot of Stephen King. This isn't in my sort five king books but eighties freely scattered meditation on grief and madness. The extent to it's the mind fractious. The acting is a big step up in this media. Jason Clark alone is is phenomenal. But he's a good Castro. John Lesko as as well. Yeah. Without getting into any kind of spoil the territory. It also does feel like it's been cut up together. Little bit sent. No. And there's a couple of flashback eve sort of, you know, remember scenes where we haven't seen the memory in the first place, and it feels like that was in. There was then cut vaginal issues. I think missing hair specifically in terms of carrot to where you're not quite sure. For example, why he takes him to the scary magical burial grounded expired, but that's fine. I mean, the moves pretty fast as film. I think if anything it could do with like five ten extra minutes, just add a few more carrot two moments. For me. I'm going to say it wasn't scary enough. I wanted to be more scared. I love being scared in films, and considering the idea of the hall of this film is so Italy creepy and freaky and deeply upsetting. I didn't feel deeply upset hill in the way that something like hereditary wed just the the central idea of as so horrendously obsessing. Yeah. I didn't feel that in the film, but it's kind of fun poke Cohen horror film, in a way that I feel like it shouldn't quite be a fun film. Film because it's about such a horrible. I'm with you. Scared enough all stuff enough thought this going to be like weeks of trauma and therapy for me after this film when I come out, and I was like man it had not almost like you. Go to punch of friends around you having fun. You know, what films like he's almost one of those enjoyable horror films, not one of those ready affecting horror films. Maybe that's what they were going for. And if so well done, you succeeded, but I think the original film, sunny, the book stays with you long off finish you. And this doesn't yet. The book is terrifying. But three stars end for cemetery, which is still recommendation. So next up we have an unusual western which is the sisters brothers. This is weird when it has all the beats of a normal. Western kind of it is walking Phoenix on Jones e Riley are bounty hunters and their sent on the trail of a missing person who's played by Jake Joan hall, and they have various trials and tribulations along the way, and then some stuff happens each don't expect, and it turns into a complete different kind of film by the end. I don't want to say too much because I feel it's one of those films with the the less, you know, going in the better is directed by Jacko DR, he wrote screenplays well with Thomas Bigan, and it's it's both kind of a really really typical western, you know, with the horses and the ins and the dusty towns in the writing over wide open spaces, and then something different like, they go to San Francisco at one point. And they experienced the big city Johnny Riley experiments with toothpaste, which is a whole new exciting thing for him. There's a whole kind of scientific experiment angled towards the end of the film that becomes completely fascinating in weird and disturbing way and involves resentment, and it's it's kind of great and kind of strange g get comedy, John C Reilly. Oh, drama Johnson Riley because like so bickering cut a carriage's on they they kind of like playing off each other is he playing in his comedy. Or is he in that more series? He's mostly serious John Riley in various times, he's very sort of drama Jones e Riley who let's not forget can make both Talladega and booby nights. But there are definitely moments. Come to here are there really beautiful kind of riffs hair. But that's not overwhelming tone of the film is very much more serious than that mostly. But not all how does resume at fed does he get mole than he did invent him. Yes. He does, thankfully, this is kind of redemption for the reside, scientists type, but it's just it's a very eccentric film on it sort of their kind of charming. So you don't mind that you're not quite sure where they're going to quite join hanging out with them, basically. So yes, so we give it four stars is weird. And it's not quite like normal western but equally it's just quite likeable. And I can't quite put any better than that. Is it a great twist? Like the net James story. Yeah. I'm really just hit for the pumps. Could. I haven't seen the film. So that is all the films that we here in the room have seen missing link, which is the new film from Leica is also at this week. I am dying to see this because I love them. But I haven't seen it yet. But that is the story of as the name suggests this sort of missing link in the human evolutionary cycle turning up and going on an exciting journey across country. Also this week is last year's Cannes festival entry happy as Lazzaro that's another sort of sunny unusual drama this time from Italy from Alice roar washer and that has gotten four stars as well, which is again recommendation. So do check it out. And of course, a clockwork orange is also getting a release this week. And if you haven't seen that, and if you are a Kubrick fund, it is obviously a masterpiece in you should check it out. So that is it for this week's empire podcast. Join us next week for more film related fun. When will hopefully be rejoined by Chris and certainly joined by Jesse Buckley. His here to talk about her fantastic. New film wild rose until that officious occasion. Eight is. Goodbye from James goodbye from Ben nearby. And it's goodbye from me, I'm off to continue. My lifelong quest to figure out what the fuck Jellicoe cat is Jesus Christ. But I.