2 Episode results for "Jeremy Service"
Score More #15: Three blockbuster trades for Melvin Gordon
"<music> rivers give angling lift and the blame should have been ruled a fumble Antonio Gates one hundred twelve th career touchdown catches the most by the N._F._l.. Tied all time would have figured it out. I just like to play football. This is score more with Garrett system. We are back if the score more podcasts ask welcome back all you score morons and it's an exciting show today because let's talk about trades. Most of you know. Melman Gordon is in store for a whole is aging came out. This week said he might hold out the season if he's not giving a new contract you'll ask for trade a lot of drama going on and I think that it is worth exploring some blockbuster trades now. Some trades would be nice but I WANNA go big. I want to talk about some blockbuster. stor trades like remember winless. Shawn McCoy was traded for Kiko Alonzo. You remember how big of a deal that was. Let's talk about some player trades because honestly we're talking about picks. I mean that's not that exciting but recently bleacher report came out with an article talking about the best possible landing spots in terms of the trae from L. Gordon and the highest pick they gave from L.. Gordon was a second round pick and that seems low to me. I know that running backs aren't that much of a commodity anymore more for Melvin Gordon as a pro bowl or even with his injury history. He's a pro bowl running back. He taught five running back in the N._F._l.. Can easily make that argument easily so that's definitely valuable to some team. I think the chargers can get a first round pick from Gordon but also that's not very exciting to talk about. Let's talk about some player trades. You know a first rounder to the Houston Texans Great. You know that that makes a ton of sense in the chargers give value but let's talk about some player traits. This is not talking about. You know whether Moma Gordon deserves the contract because honestly he does. I think a lot of people are missing the boat on that. Everybody's completely turned on Melvin Gordon which is crazy and I guess that's just fan of you know <hes> either be with my team or don't you know but Mellon Gordon deserves a contract. He deserves to be one of the highest paid running backs in the N._F._l.. He deserves to be up there with the Todd Gurley and the David Johnson's and lady on bells he's hitting the prime of his career and as a player he deserves that so far everybody's saying that he's selfish that he's holding out and you know you could question the timing of the hold out and everything but if it's about money you're crazy because as a player he deserves that that the problem is teams are notoriously snake bitten by running backs on their second contracts. The evidence is out there once you give a running back a second contract after the rookie contract the production goes goes down hill and fast and it's also been proven that you can replicate players production with other players. The steelers were able to get just as much yardage out of James Connor last year without lady on Bell. That's happening all around the league star running backs go down with an injury and somebody else steps up chiefs. Were able to get some yardage on the ground with cream hunt gone. You know it's happening everywhere so no you can't get another Melman Gordon and obviously there isn't another Melvin Gordon on the chargers roster right now but look ban the dude deserves his money all go more into it on the lightning round podcast but I just want to get straight into trades and everybody that listened to last podcasts. I appreciate you tuning into that and asking you a bunch of follow up questions and all that I'll get to it next time but let's just talk about trades no bullshit. Let's just get straight into it. Okay so I've got three blockbuster trades that came to mind nine that would make a ton of sense for both teams not saying they will happen and you might go that will never happen. That's dumb. Teams will never trade for them fine but I'm gonNA give you reasons why it makes sense for both teams. I'm not just going to throw scenarios Orios out there because there was a scenario where the chargers should trade with the Texans Vegetarian clowney which is great in theory because he's a great player but the chargers have one of the best pass rushing duos in the N._F._l.. What do they need to add another end for behind? Behind Ingram and Bosa where does he fit. It's fun to kick Melvin Ingram inside. It's fun have Joey Bosa play three tech from time to time but they can't hold up there for a full season. Entertainment clouding isn't getting kicked in either and with his injury injury history you know none of that really makes sense. It makes sense on paper but then when you look at the chargers roster it makes a ton of sense for the Texans they need a running back that makes sense to get Melman Gordon but it doesn't make sense for the charge to get cloudy so I'm GonNa make sense all this and give you arguments for both sides on why they should make these traits so and this is going to be player straight up. I'll probably add some picks and all that but let's just make it clean. I'M GONNA just go player to player and then for another one off to throw in picks just because it's one sided but let's go ahead and start so here's your first trade the first trade and he's a blockbuster trades okay. These are names. You will recognize for sure. I'm not going for bench players. I'M GONNA go on for multiple role players. These are high end starters. Okay charters gotta get something in return so the first one little crazy charge gonNA have to do some shuffling but how about the chargers trae Melvin Alvin Gordon to the Washington redskins for their franchise left tackle Trent Williams Trent Williams held out the mandatory minicamp. He did not show up he wanted a new contract and also according to Jason Lockenfora <hes> it has nothing to do with money has everything with the franchise and he just does not want to play for the redskins anymore. Trim Williams is the N._F._L.'s best left tackle in my opinion definitely top five and it would absolutely help out the chargers now now in terms of the redskins running back group. You know they have some odd J.. P. Rhine and Darius guys was the guy they drafted to be. They're BELCO back. He was injured all of two thousand eighteen this year. He's got a hamstring injury that he says you don't have to worry about but the teams obviously cautious so it makes a ton of sense to have a running back stable of Somalia p Rhine as your third back getting you know maybe five to seven touches a game and mix dairy guys and Melvin Gordon as you're running back group. They just drafted Duane Haskins to be their quarterback so they've got a rookie quarterback and they need to develop some yards because they're wide receivers are trash. You know they've got Vernon. Davis and Jordan Reed at tight end which is great on paper but you know when you have a group of Josh Dotson Terry maclaurin who they just drafted and Paul Richardson as your three wide receivers they also got Kelvin harmon but he's more of a fourth worth wide receiver at the moment to have a group of Dotson maclaurin Richardson it really help out that offense to have a running back also catch out of the backfield. A manufacturer yards also gotten much better in pass protection throughout his career. Mama Gordon has so could you'd help out Dwayne Haskins in his rookie year and you know there's no better confidence booster for a rookie quarterback than when a running back and get yards all he has to do is handed off and give him second and third and short and Melvin Gordon can do that so this. This makes a lot of sense for the redskins again. They drafted Darius guys to be their franchise back but was injured in eighteen now this year. He's a little banged up. You don't know what you have in him quite yet and it wouldn't hurt to have to premier ear running backs with Melville. Gordon embarrassed guys so for the chargers you know a little weird because they've already got Russell Kun but Russell Kun has his phantom injury while I don't want to call it a phantom injury but he's got this weird injury that nobody can really get a grasp on Anthony. Lynn doesn't know how long he's going to be out. Nobody knows the specifics of it. Nobody knows how it happened. It just happened. It's there and they don't know how long it's GonNa go so at least for this currencies until the nineteen in having a guy like Trent Williams manning your blindside would help Philip rivers out a lot now if Russell Kun is good to go which is obvious the obvious question. You know what happens when Russell Kun back what if he's healthy for week one I think Heathrow in right tackle. I don't think there's really an argument to have Russell. Kun Play left tackle when you've got the best left tackle football on your roster and you know obviously complain out of position is an ideal but you gotTa Help Philip Rivers out and if you can switch a Trent Williams on left side and put Russell Kun right side even with Russell Kun struggling for position he hasn't really played most of his career is better than what they would get out of Sam Tevi period and I know they want to develop savvy and I know they like him heavy. But how do you say no to treat Williams and this is a short term option too. I mean Trent Williams has thirty one. The redskins are obviously at an impasse with trump williams. They're not giving him a new contract or at least having offered him one yet and. He wants out of Washington according to report so at least get something for him much like the chargers at least get something for them and not be like the steelers and have them hold out and then lose lady on Bell for nothing when they could have got something for for him so for the redskins listen he's thirty one. We gotTA move on anyway. Let's go ahead and start that transition and they've got a pretty good offensive line but they're going to be in trouble at tackle. You know there's no way to fix <music> Trent Williams. You have the best in the game. You know you're obviously going to have a dip in production left tackle but you sometimes you got to expedite that process and the redskins can here and he's going to be thirty one so as Russell Kun so short term option and you know Russell coons only signed till twenty twenty so it's not like they have a coon locked up forever. He's only got one more year on his deal after the season so you know you can try the experiment if it doesn't work. He's an easy cut to you know you only lose two point five million dollars and you save about thirteen point five so I'm not saying cutting Russell Kun as the option because it's not but if you bring Trent Williams in and you have Russell Kun switch over to right tackle I mean I don't think it could hurt the offensive line. I think it makes it so much better and why not resign Trent Williams two two two three years. Whatever your window you think is for Philip rivers which will see when they re sign a contract with them? The charters have a two year window Oh to win a super bowl rivers or a three year window depending on what they say why not get him some help and make sure that he has his best options on the field and he has his best chance to win and rivers can win if he's got some protection Trent Williams will absolutely help that no doubt about it because he's the best tackle in the game. Redskins won't have to deal with the contract negotiations. We'll get something forum. The charges will get something for Melvin Gordon. It's a straight up trae because both teams will have to give the new new player new contracts so I don't think you have to throw in picks or anything like that. If you had to I mean a late day three pit could make sense to throw to the Redskins for the charges to make that deal work but getting a guy like trump Williams would help this team tremendously you get Trent Williams uh-huh will also help out your right side which was a big weakness. I mean you're you're upgrading your left tackle ready which Okuno already a pro bowl tackle but Trent Williams is so much better and then you go over to the right side you put a coup over there and things work out your great on the edges so <hes> the first trade melborn for Trent Williams makes sense for both sides. I knew definitely upgrade both rosters all right this next trade is an obvious one and a lot of people have suggested this trade I think they're suggesting it for the wrong. Reasons ends and making a bunch of sense for it but I will go ahead and make sense of it all and I just WanNa throw the Trent Williams trade out first because that's a little weird because there's a lot of movement for the chargers but the next to easy drag and drop starters India roster. They fit perfectly perfectly so next one again an obvious one is the chargers Trade Melvin Gordon to the Jacksonville Jaguars and yes the charges get back Jalen Ramsey now to make this trait work. I think is a little lopsided headed for the Jaguars so I think the charge would have to throw in a pick and I wouldn't go any higher than a third round pick. That's a little rich but if you gotta get a third round pick out there to get the best corner and Football Jalen Ramsey you do it man. Go throw third round pick which by the way Tom Moscow has been tortuously bad with his third round picks with guys that are not named Keenan Allen so he won't have to make that mistake in two thousand twenty they give pick so Jalen Ramsey and a third round pick for Melvin Gordon now for the Jaguars. They're in trouble financially especially after giving the contract they did a nick foles in the off season not only this season but next season so they're going to be strapped for cash in order to make a deal work they'd have to move things around and as you heard from Jalen Ramsey he wants it all and it's going to be hard for the Jaguars to make that work. I'm sure the Jacksonville would like to keep Jalen Ramsey of course but others a couple of things working against him first off. They made a pretty big splash in two thousand seventeen seventy J boo which was a great signing for them because he's been really good. They signed him to a five year sixty seven point five million dollar deal. He's the eighth highest paid corner in the N._F._l.. So they've got a lot of money already allocated corners do they want to have that much cash wrapped up in two cornerbacks when they could allocate it to other positions because you know as a few years ago they went all in and not just signing A._J.. Buoy but signing nor well the offensive Lineman last off season getting guys like Marcel Daria some leak Jackson. They've spent a lot of money in free agency and it's going to be hard for them to not only pay A._J.. Boo But then give Jalen Ramsey a big deal as well and he's going to get paid. A lot more than sixty seven point five million dollars. The dolphins just made xavien Howard the highest paid corner. It's five years seventy five point two five million. That's more in the Ballpark for Jalen Ramsey entering his prime being the best at the position so I don't think they're going to wrap up that much cash in two players at the same position at corner in Boolean Ramsey at running back of course they've got Leonard Fournette they ended up signing guys like Alfred Blue and Thomas Rawles to add behind for net so not a great running backs table and let her for net has been hit or miss throughout his career not averaging more than three point nine yards per attempt so hasn't been great to start his career and to be honest if they want a more dynamic running back Melvin Gordon can give it to him. Leonard Fournette can drop back to rb to and maybe he's better with a smaller workload but had a pretty good rookie year and then his second season not so much and much like the Washington redskins. The Jaguars are in trouble at wide receiver as well. It'd be nice to get nick folsom help but Keelan Coal Marquee slee Dede Westbrook not really those guys they signed Tiro prior to have Chris Conley but that's a tough wide receiver group. I'm not drafting any of them fantasy to be honest with you but they need help and so to get that offense going while the defense is pretty good. I mean they still got clay. Campbell will and miles. Jack was great last year. Janaka Gakugei is good with guys like adding Rodney Harrison and having Jalen Ramsey A._J.. They've got some talent on the defensive side but they got a score some points so they need a guy like Mama Gordon and it makes a ton China's sense so the chargers could get Melman Gordon also get a pick for twenty twenty or whatever your they want at highest third round pick but they can get a pick not have to worry about Jalen Ramsey as a free agent and the fifth year option and having the hold out and all that stuff that comes with it like the chargers they get something for a player that was on their way out anyway so the chargers get Jalen Ramsey now of course everybody's talking about how Jalen Ramsey wants to play with Derwin James again that's great great you know <hes> being Florida state kid that makes a ton of sense and they've talked about it a lot but that doesn't really correlate players WanNa play with other players all the time but that doesn't mean they go to that team would make a ton of sense for Jalen Ramsey and the chargers for Jalen Ramsey. He's now back in the playoff hunt. I mean now real super bowl contenders and with a competitor like Jalen Ramsey is not going to take long for him to Kinda circle the drain there in Jacksonville to get fed up and want to get out of there with the chargers. He's already thrust into one of the best defense in the N._F._l.. gets to play with his buddy derwin James and for the chargers you've got Casey Hayward on one side who two years ago was one of the best corners league and then you've got the other guy that everybody was arguing. Who's better on the other side Jalen Ramsey busy so you've got Ramsey and hayward who were the two best corners in two thousand Seventeen Jalen Ramsey still very good eighteen keyword took a step back and it makes sense for the chargers and to be honest it would make sense to give him the deal he wants because Casey Hayward's twenty nine he signed till twenty twenty one the chargers have an easy out for the next two years and twenty twenty twenty twenty one and you're basically saying Jalen Ramsey is going to be the heir apparent when Casey Hayward no longer can go or it just doesn't work with a team Jalen Ramsey becomes your cornerback one and then you worry about cornerback to later I know the chargers are very high on guys like Michael Davidson Trevor Williams but that's great depth to have as your quarterback three? If an injury happens happens to either Ramsey or hayward so it would make sense to add a guy like Ramsey makes your defense so much better I mean yeah that's a lot of money in the chargers are going to have a lot of people to pay but you can't argue with trying to get Jalen Ramsey at what he's worth and and he's one of the best corners in the leagues were given the contract to make sense then got a button up a guy like Bosa so rather than paying Melman Gordon Thirteen to fourteen million like he wants WanNa pay a corner for fifteen. It's a better position you get a lot back on your return and you're getting one of the best players in the game. I don't think you can make an argument that Mama Gordon's the best running back in the N._F._l.. Because he's not beacon certainly say the Jalen Ramsey is the best at his position deserves to get paid. A lot of guys are GONNA have to get paid after that and you got to probably make some moves and make some hard decisions but if you're signing a guy like Jalen Ramsey your defense becomes damn near unstoppable to be honest with you barring injuries. There's no reason why that defense couldn't be the best in the N._F._l.. In jalen Ramsey is a hell of a talent and have him and Derwin together would just be incredible so getting a guy like Jane Them Ramsey would make sense for the chargers. Obviously <hes> having Trevor Williams Michael Davis take a step back hurts because you'd like to see how they do. And see them develop but you just get better across the board with Jalen Ramsey so trading jalen Ramsey to the chargers for Mel Gordon and a we'll call it a third round pick to the Jacksonville Jaguars so honestly this is the dream scenario Jalen Jalen Ramsey for Melvin Gordon make sense for both sides Jalen Ramsey for Melvin Gordon would be great. You'RE GONNA have to throw in a pick. You might have to throw in pick for all these traits but you know if you've got to throw in some filler I it makes sense but just to keep it clean on his podcast. I'll just kind of making it playoff player but why not man jalen Ramsey on the chargers everybody those arguing Joey Bosa Jalen Ramsey or deforest buckner what if the charges got Ramsey and Bosa that'd be crazy so the first one Trent Williams from Alma Gordon Second One Mellon Gordon for Jalen Ramsey in a third round pick hi. I'm avery trump woman and I'm the host of Nice. Try A podcast about utopia a place that is perfect and does not exist this season were traveling across time and space to explore seven different attempts to design a better world. What happens when those designs don't go according to plan from Jamestown the first permanent English settlement in North America and Levittown a series of suburban developments built in the nineteen fifties to shun Gar a modernist Indian city? That's also responsible for the chairs and Courtney Kardashians dining room and biosphere to an early nineties experiment that sought to create a completely enclosed self sustaining ecosystem and yeah some of them worked out better than others but they're all fascinating. Thank listen and subscribe to Nice try today on Apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast APP from curbed and the Vox media podcast network so this next one is a little out of the box but what I like it and I know you'll like it too so the chargers Trade Melvin Gordon to the Cincinnati Bengals for wide receiver a j green yeah a man so for the bank. I just love this. I love this so for the bengals. They have Tyler Boyd who was their leading wide receiver last year A._J.. Green was out for seven games. I think he played nine last year but tyler boyd broke a thousand yards last year so clear guy that stepped up when they needed them and can be a low end wide receiver one for the Bengals A._J.. Greens entering his last year of his contract trekkies of Free Agent Twenty Twenty <hes> saying that he wants money and it's a new regime in Cincinnati so they might not be as tied to A._J.. Green as the previous regime but probably still unlikely a franchise player a guy that the bengals love but a scenario that would make sense because a wide receiver that's entering thirty two next year. Cincinnati might not be inclined to offer him that kind of money for for whatever he's looking for especially when they have a new young wide receiver that's doing pretty good so while there might be some love because he's the franchise player in the face of the franchise for a very long time and maybe their best wide receiver of all time time at least in my lifetime being the best bengals wide receiver I've ever seen they might not want to trade him but it would make sense to get something for him now rather than you know let him hit the market and leave as a free agent in two thousand twenty. Now I get it. It makes less sense for the bengals because you know fancy you know like I mentioned face the franchise one of their best receivers of all time but also they've got Joe Nixon who is really really impressive last year over eleven hundred yards on the ground Giovani Bernard has been a dud so far throughout his career and they drafted Trayvon Williams and they also got Rodney Anderson. If I'm not mistaken so they've got some running backs but it is hard to imagine a team like the bengals angles not wanting to superior running backs now if you're asking me if they would wanna pay for one I that who knows but for this hypothetical situation having Joe Mixing a Melvin Gordon The backfield would be very very very good for a team like Cincinnati and then rather paying a over the hill as you could say wide receiver who's over thirty rather than paying him going into next season. Why not pay a running back heading into his prime which I wouldn't do but they're definitely teams that would do it and crazier things have happened? Odell Beckham Junior was just traded in the offseason that made no sense and then you saw Antonio Brown go so teams are willing to pay these players. Ears crazier. Things have happened but it's possible maybe unlikely but definitely a entertaining topic to talk about because A._J.. Green to the chargers you'd basically be able to enter switch. Everybody a big weakness for the chargers. They're wide receiver three Travis Benjamin or maybe Arteta Scott or maybe Jeremy Davis or maybe Dylan Cantrell but either way. It's not good enough. It could be better so why not upgrade it have a wide receiver group of A._J.. Green Mike Williams and Keenan Allen. If you were talking about again like I mentioned with Trent Williams a two to three maybe four year window left with Philip rivers as the quarterback why not go all in and get them as much help as possible if you don't have a running back in the backfield like Melvin Gordon why not get better in a pass happy league and add another pro bowl caliber potential hall of Famer Definite Hall of Famer in A._J.. Green Green on the other side of Keenan Mike Williams and you're asking who's GonNa play in the slot anybody any player line up in the slot. Their Keenan Allen probably will get more slot snaps than anybody else but A._J.. Green being able to stretch the field or another red zone weapon somewhere where the chargers have struggled Mike Williams also another red zone weapon showed that last year Keenan Allen still getting work on short yardage situations I mean it's all great so adding A._J.. Green and being able to pay him for two or three years but it makes sense if you're going all in with Philip rivers and a short window and I'm not saying all in like they gotta go up against the cap or anything but for the next two or three years they might be a little strapped because they wanted to bring a guy like Jalen Ramsey and a guy like Williams A._j.. Green if you've got to do that to help your chances you've got to do it because in all honesty and this is a different topic altogether Thompson. Let's go isn't like that. It is building holding the team getting younger and better improving through the draft. Maybe picking off a player to a free agency but not really we're not seeing trades except early on in his G._M.. Tenure when he was trading leading up for guys like Melvin Gordon and maintain show in Jeremiah Tau Chew during the draft but you weren't seeing like in season trades there was that trade for Jeremy Service but that was like way down the line and that was for a day three conditional pick. I think it was a six round round conditional pick maybe seventh but that was nothing player they're going to cut and they got a late draft. Pick for them and the vikings were able to give something up for him but he's not going all in. If there's one thing you can criticize Thom Tillis go for is he's not making the big moves. He didn't trade up to get Derwin James. James fell to him. You know you didn't trade up to get Joey Bosa. They had the third pick they had the choice of Joey Bosa. Yes he hits on a lot of day three picks great but at some point when do you start right to stack the chips and say I gotta go all in because Philip rivers is not getting any younger and making any of these traits would make sense to help Philip rivers or help your team protects US blindsided Trent Williams get better on defense in DB with Jalen Ramsey in a pass happy league no less I mean if your offense is GonNa take a dip was Melman Gordon gone and trading him. Make sure team can't score on you and pick up a guy like jalen Ramsey or help out the offense on the outside signed wide receivers and pick up a guy like J. Green put them on the outside and get more yards through the air than on the ground so those are my three trades Trent Williams Jalen Ramsey A._j.. Green chargers get better. They don't have to pay Melman Gordon the money that quite frankly he deserves but because he plays the wrong position the N._F._l.. He's not GonNa get it while he might get it but probably not for the chargers so those are my trades three blockbuster trades. This has been great. Thank you everybody appreciate you guys listening. Let me know who you'd pick. which trae would you like? I'll probably put a poll up in the article. <hes> don't say the trades because I don't want to spoil anybody but we'll call Trent Williams trae jalen Ramsey trade be A._J.. Green Trade. Let's see which one do you like best. Okay thank you. Everybody appreciate you all. Don't forget to follow ask or more pod. Let's just hope the charter score more on Sunday. Hey it's medically host of the eater upsell before you jump to your next podcast. I want to tell you about a new event. That's happening later this summer in Brooklyn. It's called called Eater youngun summit at a one day celebration of up and coming talent in the world of food. The eater young summit is a day full of talks workshops and tastings brought to you from fellow Vox media publication eater. You'll learn from some of the most inspiring people in the world food participate in.
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Michelle OConnell
"From beautiful templates from world class designers to marketing tools an analytics to help you understand your customers even better. squarespace is the one stop shop when it comes to creating an online presence that not only works for you but as easy to use and totally ready to go out of the box with nothing to patch or upgrade ever and twenty four, seven award customer support checkout squarespace dot com slash crime junkie for a free trial and when you're ready to launch us the offer Code Crime Jenky to save ten percent off your first purchase. Of A website or domain high crime junkies. If you are a fan of our show full body chills, I have some great news. Thanks to a partnership with stitcher premium we were able to make ten more full episodes releasing weekly on stitcher premium just go stitcher dot com slash premium and sign up with the Promo Code chills for a free month of stitcher premia, you'll get access to weekly releases of ten more full body chills, episodes, AD free, and a ton of other great shows to that stitcher dot com slash premium Promo Code chills. High Crime Junkies I'm your host, Ashley Flowers and I'm and the story I have for you. Today is a real roller coaster when a bright young woman dies from a gunshot right after landing Hudson Dream job the local sheriff's Office is quick to declare that she died by suicide but with unanswered questions and issues around the investigation others aren't so sure. This is the story of Michelle, O'CONNELL? In early September of two, thousand, ten, a young woman in Saint Augustine Florida named Michelle O'CONNELL is over the moon excited because at twenty four years old she's just gotten her dream job at daycare center. Michelle's a single mom raising her four-year-old daughter Alexis who she calls Lexi all on her own. So she spent the past few years working multiple jobs at a time to support them both but now she'll be able to have. Just, this one job working full time with one of her old high school teachers. The best thing though is that this job has benefits. So for the first time in her life Michelle's going to have health insurance and she'll be able to get coverage for Alexis to, and she's literally like actually bragging to her new boss that she's not even sick but she's just gonNa go to the doctor anyway just because she finally can. Now even though her professional life is on this upswing Michelle knows her personal life needs some work. She's been having issues with her boyfriend misguiding Jeremy Banks who's a deputy in the Saint John's County Sheriff's office they've been dating for about a year and she alexis live with him at his house. But Michelle has been pretty honest with her family that their relationship just isn't going to last much longer according to Denise Martinez Raimondo and Lauren reporting ABC, News Michelle has lunch with her sister Chrissy. Second Two thousand ten and actually tells her that she has a plan to break up with Jeremy that very same night after this paramore concert that they had tickets to that she was planning to attend with Jeremy and her brother Sean. Now, as talking about this something in Christie's got starts kind of warning about this whole situation like it feels to her like a bad idea and she tells Michelle listen I don't think you should go to this show but Michelle's like listen I already bought the tickets. What's done is done I'm going. So she ends up going and during the show Michelle, starts sending her siblings kind of these weird cryptic text messages. But after the show she texts Chrissy like normal and things. Okay and she tells her that she'll be over to get Alexis. Soon. But she never comes to pick up her daughter. At eleven twenty, five, pm nine, one one dispatch gets a frantic phone call from Michelle's Boyfriend Jeremy The New York Times published part of the call in two, thousand thirteen and here I want all of you to take a listen. Out. Nine one one. Thousand Four, seven, hundred place. On. My. Talk. So we. Just. Ma'am. Into it listen how let me tell you the truth I'm banking. Shares I work with Y'all to someone here now okay and he did it calmed down I. Don't seven hundred sherlock play. Okay. What were their new? My girlfriend just shot herself with my t weapon please. Now. We're doing that why don't talk is she still breathing no blood coming out of everywhere please. Teeth not reading call back on track to get. Them. On. vk. down. Okay. Voice gets. So when I I listen to this nine one call I was like, okay. This guy make Nicole seems pretty hysterical there. Seems to be emotion and panic fear in his voice. But you know what else there is that I didn't catch up verse till. I. Re listened while reading the statement analysis blog on this call was that there is a suggestion as to what happened. He says, I think my girlfriend just shot herself E. L. Like I assume what you think is strange about that is that he's like twenty seconds in and basically Tommy operator what. Happened is that what you found strange? Yeah. Especially, like offering it up the operator didn't even ask you know like he's like I. Think this is what's going on. Yes but to be fair like when I first heard this, I haven't gone through the analysis like you have your like I I hear like what sounds like genuine panic and to me there's things trust me that stood out to me in this call but that actually wasn't. One of them because you know if we're to believe the series of events that unfolded, I mean, he was in the House with her like it would be pretty obvious to him and I could see myself if I was in that situation that being the thing that I say, twenty seconds I'm in house at my partner they've shot themselves. So a little strange perhaps, but I also don't think points to guilt necessarily. Yeah. But he does. kind of center everything around him like get someone to my house. He never really says, she needs help someone needs help etc, and again, like you said, we're only twenty seconds into this call and like any nine one one operator would have to do with me. They're trying to calm him down which makes under percents because like I said, you can hear this heightened emotion in his voice in this call but what they do is they. You heard the call. It's a high-pitched voice at someone who's having a hard time expressing what's going on and operator actually calls him Ma'am Ma'am, please calm down Ma'am you need listen. Yeah and that is where everything kind of completely changes for me because I agree that that was the moment in the call that I think things shift or shore installation analysis blog mentions how the caller says it's Mr It's Mr, it's Sir it's sore and it's more than just correcting the mistake the blog even says it's demanding his respect he wants to be called Sir he wants to be the. Masculine enforcement situation. Well, what I thought was so strange about that I didn't read so much into it like statement analysis blog did but even just like the fact that it took you out of the moment so much like again, if my partner had just taken their own life in our house that we live in together and someone were to call me Sir on the phone, obviously identify as a woman most important thing to you in that moment would not be I don't care call me whatever you want as long as you get someone to my house to help me kind of. Again factly and then this is what kind of kicked it for me when I was reading the post about this call he says listen hang on let me tell you the truth the truth I heard that too and so sales is like What does that mean? Whatever he said before may be wasn't the true? Yes. So that lying stuck out to me like a sore thumb and. I mean he could be trying to kind of dislike. Bolster whatever he's about to tell them like like give some kind of weight to it yet. It just makes like another qualifier for what he saying yes. Yeah. But I mean again I I can see both sides of it because again if I'm making this call I would assume everything I'm telling you, I, think that would be a phrase I would come out of my mouth granted we say it all the time you have no idea. What's going to come out of your mouth but yeah, why make special note to say what I'm about to tell us the truth it almost disqualifies everything he said before that to me. Yeah I don't know I don't know and when you say like bolstering what he's about to tell them I, think we also need to go back to the fact that he didn't use his name. When he tells operator he has he says deputy banks not. Banks. So he's kind of using his authority, his sense of. Duty respect. Honor to make this more important than maybe the operator is taking it. I know to he's now demanding that someone gets there now and at the beginning of the call he says, please please please he's very. Urgent and begging and on top of that statement analysis points out that he doesn't think she shot herself. Now he is now saying that she did shoot herself and not only that but with his service weapon, which is a big difference. Then I think she shot herself in the first twenty seconds of the call. Yeah and this is where there's kind of a shift right? Like you said in the beginning he's like, please please help me asking for stuff and then he starts demanding stuff and telling the dispatcher a little bit like how To do giving her orders yeah right. Yeah. Giving her orders in definitely points that out once that is all out his calmer more straightforward demeanor switches off and backed hysterics of the beginning of the call yet. Again, I can see this both ways right? Like I think somebody WHO's super skeptical will look at this and say you're clearly putting on a show and you're turning it on and off when you need to when you you know when you can't keep the show going or you're gonNA someone upsets you and no, it's Mr it sir. I also kind of look at this against someone who is very Taipei some might call me controlling hope really. Yeah crazy right. So I can see how if I was in this situation and panicking like I'm already making a plan and thinking ten steps ahead and if I don't feel like I'm getting the response that I need the urgency that I need you will shift gears to try to achieve. That yeah. I'll shift gears and I will start giving orders. So I understand I don't know if that's his personality type but I can understand being panicked and being terrified and when no one is giving you the help I think that they should be I can imagine being like listen like you need to do X. Y. Z. to make sure we get this done and I can see myself going. into that mode and once I feel like someone else can take it from there. Then kind of letting go and going back to two panicking, right right and I can like you said like I can see that side of it too. But something else that stuck out to me and I think you and statement analysis is he never wants says Michelle's name Yeah Yeah I notice in every single time. He talks better and just like statement analysis other posts about the call says, he only talks about Michelle as she relates to him and kind of uses language at distances him from her like she's his girlfriend or just she never Michelle or even my girlfriend Michelle nothing like that. No no connection right like you would think it would be if it's only cared about it's their name, it's their individuality. Right, and again, both sides of at Devil's advocate here it also could be maybe part of. The training he's had on the job separation. Yeah. Yeah. where I understand that it's happening to him at this point in its in his home. I don't know that. That's the reason. I. Don't know this guy but that could that be a reason for not saying her name it's more just like here the facts I need you to get here. There's a woman it doesn't matter that her name's Michelle she needs help. Now, obviously, you know this is the call that comes in we could continue to spend on this for gays, but they do get help to the house. So some of the very first responders on the scene are actually Jeremy's co workers. So they're familiar with both him and Michelle just like Jeremy said, there is Michelle on her back bleeding out from a gunshot wound according to Walt, Bogdanich and Glenn Silvers reporting in The New York Times Jeremy Service weapon is laying near Michelle's body with the tactical light still on which matches up with Jeremy's claim that we heard on the nine one one call that she shot herself. Her open purse is sitting in the kitchen and first responders can see to prescription pill bottles inside. But when they look for the pills themselves, those are actually found in Michele's right pocket. Despite the EMT's trying to take life saving measures. It's no use. Michelle, is pronounced dead around eleven forty, eight PM that night right there at the house. Wall, the scene is being processed. The Saint John's Sheriff's Office really rallies around Jeremy I mean there were even. who weren't assigned to the case who were like showing up to support him I mean even his commanding officer who's off duty comes over now instead of taking him down to the station to interview him about what happened here they actually turn a squad car into like this mix shift interview room. So Jeremy can tell his story comfortably with his CEO, up in the front seat listening in. As he tells it they did actually break up that night in the car on their way home from the show just like Michelle poulter sister she was planning on doing and Jeremy says that they argued about it before coming to a mutual decision to end things. Well, at least that's how he first positions it. If you go to the New York Times piece. I just mentioned. They've actually got a full transcript of his interview and what's really interesting is how he shifts from saying it was mutual like this break up was they decided it's best for both of them to kind of hinting that it was his idea for them to break up wait. But don't we know that it was Michelle's idea we at least know that. That's what Michelle was telling her sister. You know what Jeremy may have thought before I told you before I don't know but I would say at a bare minimum even if he were thinking that mutual is probably the best way to describe it right at that point if they were both thinking it than it actually is mutual, right? Anyway he says they'd come. Down by the time, they got back to his house where Michelle went inside to start packing up some of her stuff. Then Jeremy says he asked her for one last kiss when Michelle said no and asked him to leave. He went out to the garage to sit on his motorcycle and he says while he's out there he here's an all too familiar popping sound. Jeremy says he ran into the house looking for Michelle and found the bedroom door locked. Then there was another horrible popping sound at which point he says, he kicked down the door and found Michelle on the floor bleeding where exactly what she shot was he able to do CPR? She was shot basically in the mouth from like the front and she did still have a pulse according to an ABC news piece I read from April, two, thousand, eighteen but Jeremy didn't try any kind of life saving measures which. To be fair even for law enforcement, there's a huge difference in reacting to a wounded stranger versus a loved one. But no, like don't know if he even checked for a pulse I don't know if the first thing he did was call nine one one but he did not try any kind of life saving measures. So at this point is when he says he dialed nine one one and that's his story. Of what happened to Michelle Michelle died by suicide this terrible tragedy and the Saint John's Sheriff's office seems to kind of just take Jeremy's word face value here even though Michelle didn't leave a note and there are no witnesses to corroborate the story. But even though Jeremy's adamant about how Michelle Die, not everyone believes this story including Michelle's family right from the second they're notified they have serious doubts like they are notified. On the night Michelle died in according to her mom and her older sister Jennifer when they were interviewed on frontline that night there told Michelle died by suicide. So within a few hours of her death before you know any kind of I would imagine real investigation can be done, and before the medical examiner makes an official rule, it yeah I guess my question is why are they even saying that if that's not? Even. been ruled her official manner of death yet don't know. I mean the O'connell family is totally shocked by what they're being told and they absolutely do not believe that Michelle was capable of taking her own life. In fact, they think Michelle was in danger that night because her family this wasn't just any kind of break up because Jeremy and Michele's private life may have been much darker than it appeared in public. This episode was made possible by sling. Do you love watching live TV, but are tired of your huge cable bill. Sling TV has the same top cable channels for as little as half the price. So you can save hundreds of dollars while still watching your favorite sports reality TV true crime shows and more not to mention a huge on-demand library with over fifty thousand shows and movies. Ling is a great value. The service starts at only thirty dollars a month for fifty top channels, and they don't force you to buy a huge bundle of channels like cable companies, which has always been my biggest question like. All the idea on all the oxygen, all the Myrtle channels. But like what the heck do I need the fishing network for? Read the room cable companies. Make the smart choice and switch to sling TV get the best of cable for the best price it's easy to switch and save learn more at sling dot com slash podcast restrictions apply. The. O'CONNELL's believe Michelle and Jeremy's relationship was more than just unhappy. They think it was violent and they've firmly believe Michelle was a victim of domestic abuse. And you know we touched on this at the top of the month when we did our episode specifically on domestic violence when there is domestic violence in a relationship that period breaking it off, we said is often the most dangerous time for survivors. So again, we know that Michelle was planning on breaking up with Jeremy the night she died and we know from Jeremy that they did actually end their relationship. Now I think it's important to point out here that Jeremy Banks has never been charged with committing domestic violence against Michelle O'CONNELL and he's always denied being violent towards her but multiple members of her family do make some pretty disturbing allegations about his behavior. Her Mom told PBS's frontline Jeremy was theory controlling and that Michelle was getting isolated from her family, which again, we just did this month that is a huge red flag in any relationship. And according to Michelle Sister Chrissy in a recording from that same frontline episode, Michelle told her about specific things. Jeremy did to her like choking her hitting her in the head and unwanted sexual behavior as well as quote unquote play wrestling that once got. So out of control that Michelle allegedly suffered vaginal bleeding again, these are all allegations and have never been proven in a court of law but you can totally see how hearing about things like this happening in Michele's relationship would terrify her family and make them fear for her safety. According to the O'CONNELL's though when they try and tell the Saint John's Sheriff's Office about this and try to give statements the night Michelle dies. Chrissy says, the department claims the allegations of abuse are basically just hearsay and not useful to them in their investigation. So they don't take statements from her family or ask them anything about how Michelle was acting in the days before her death what yet which again seems totally strange I would think that. As part of any kind of true investigation into some especially into a possible suicide. Yeah. You want to know about what's going on in that person's life as a whole in the days leading up to their dad and specifically like Howard their relationships I mean more than anything I'd want to know about the relationship of the man she lived with because she died in his home with his service weapon seems relevant to me but what do I know? According to Denise Martinez Raimondo and Lauren ephrons reporting. ABC. News. It takes just two days for the medical examiner Dr. Hogan to declare Michelle's death officially a suicide. The autopsy finds she died from a severed spinal cord, and when they do the rest of the autopsy, they also noticed that there is a cut above her right eye that the medical examiner attributes to the shell casing basically being ojected when she fired the gun and when they looked at her toxicology, they found that she did have alcohol in her system, but there's no trace of any pills in her system, which if you remember, she had those two empty pill bottles in her purse that were actually prescribed to Jeremy, and then just like all bunch of. Pills in her pocket. Now, some of the pills were hydra cone, which again, those weren't found in her system nothing was found in her system and when they actually look like what was prescribed and what was found basically all of the pills from Jeremy's bottles are accounted for. So it would seem that she didn't consume any of them well, and finding alcohol in her system doesn't really surprise me she at a concert right I definitely drink when I go to shows and I would imagine that she did too and so I don't think that that was surprised. Now I said, there didn't seem to be much of an investigation, but there was som- because the sheriff's office you know they're getting the autopsy done but they also get Michelle's phone records and I had mentioned that when she was at the show, she was sending some strange tax to her siblings and here I want you to read me some of the messages specifically this one that she sent her sister at eight fifty three PM on September second. Okay. The tech says quote. Promise me one thing. Lexi will be happy and always have a good life. and quote kind of ominous right. Yeah really ominous like it's one thing to be like, Hey, I know you're taking care of her right now can you make sure she gets a bedtime story or something but this is something much different. Yeah. It's much bigger. It's not just this night it's like her whole life and why won't you be there to ensure that I think is the question I have stead and why are we talking about this now while you're concert? Like this is a conversation even if it is just like, Hey, you know always look out for her godparent conversation something would happen to me. Yes. In the middle of a concert, like you said, this is not the time to be having this conversation and this isn't a standalone because the records show that she sent her brother Scott this message at ten. Oh, six PM. So just a little over an hour later she said quote Lexi. Never. Forget. An quote. So according to an internal report from the sheriff's, office they believe that these messages show a clearly upset person one who is feeling low enough to potentially and their own life and I mean I have to say like the Texas she sending are consistent with someone who isn't planning on being around I mean I don't disagree. But I also in this situation feel like maybe she was feeling threatened not like ready to enter own life I? Think that's a great point to make. Because when I see that I see someone who thinks they potentially might not be around but that gives no insight into why they think that. Right right. Like you said earlier with the devil's advocate type thing like we can't say either way we're her emotions were in making these these communications. Now the O'CONNELL, family is devastated and they vow to keep the pressure on what they feel is an incomplete investigation but little do they know they're about to get help from an unexpected source? All the way the country out in Washington state a blogger going by the name cloud writer comes across this tiny news article that grabs her attention right away. Cloud writer runs a blog called behind the blue wall which focuses on police officer involved domestic violence, and she herself is a survivor. So when she sees a small article in a newspaper, mentioning an unnamed deputies girlfriend in Saint Johns County Florida dying by apparent suicide with the deputy service weapon, her curiosity is instantly peaked and she. Decides to blog about it in her first version of the post, which has made on September thirteenth two, thousand, ten cloud writers sites the whole article on her website but she doesn't list where she got it from sure. What news outlet it actually came from she just repose sick and in this blog she mentioned she's looking for both the woman's name in the deputies name, and after some digging online cloud writer learns their names and her post and she says, the woman's name is Michelle O'CONNELL. Now the blog post blows up cloud writers super careful not to pass judgment about what might have happened that night but she's saying the same things that the O'CONNELL's are saying that the investigation just wasn't good enough I wasn't able to find in my research how exactly Michelle's family gets to cloud writers blog but they eventually do find it and the comments section becomes kind of like they're rallying point to spread awareness and galvanize readers into reaching out to the saint. John County Sheriff's Office to request a second investigation I mean basically like their form of a petition or a call to action. It's like on our behalf of you think this is a shady as we do. We're not asking for someone to get arrested. We're asking for a better look into this and the pressure pays off according to the Saint Augustine record in January of two thousand eleven four months after Michele's death. Saint John County Sheriff David Shore Reaches Out to the Florida Department of law enforcement fdle and asks them to do an independent investigation Ashley. I'm going to be honest this is like the best news I've heard in this entire story. Yeah. But it does make wonder like why didn't this happen day one like Saint. Johns County Sheriff's was biased in this case like why not reach out to a third party to investigate this from day one well in not even that they had to have been biased right. But I think at a minimum, there was a conflict of interest there like what if their deputies was found in the home? So this was something at least according. To The New York Times that could have been done day one. But as I understand for my research, it's not a requirement to call in fdle in cases where like one of your own up to that like individual department to make the judgement on whether or not? They should exactly and I don't know why they didn't feel like they should do this day. One is one of the biggest questions I have in this case, but whatever the logic behind not getting the FD l., e. in right away I mean, we're here now right and the lead on the investigation. Now for the fdle is a man named Rusty Rogers and it doesn't take him long to start gathering evidence at the Saint John County sheriff's Office didn't. Collect during the initial investigation and what he turns up is startling according to frontline rusty fines to witnesses. Jeremy's neighbors who say that on the night Michelle died they were out in an open garage having a cigarette when they heard a disturbance both women say they heard a female voice scream for help then a gunshot followed by the woman screaming for help again. And then another gunshot. After that. It was silence. Why didn't this come up in the I investigation? Well, here's the thing. Neither one of them was interviewed by the sheriff's Office during the I investigation none of Jeremy's neighbors were interviewed. What does seem like the first thing you would do yet canvassing a neighborhood is like crime investigation one. Oh. Yeah again, if a podcast or nose to do it, it's probably something you should be doing. Now, frontline also mentioned that both women passed polygraphs from the US secret service. So just finding these two witnesses that had been overlooked for the first time is. Yeah. But it also like sets up a theme that runs throughout the whole course of Rusty's reinvestigation. He keeps turning up things that some how got neglected the first time around The New York Times reported that officers didn't do the required paperwork about what they saw at the scene. They didn't get Jeremy's cellphone records. The didn't isolate him and get pictures like they were supposed to, and they didn't take one of the shirts that he was wearing into evidence. According to Matt Dorans reporting the Huffington Post police photos from the scene even show a bloody shirt with what looks like a bullet hole near Michelle's body but even that wasn't taken into evidence I'm sorry what's yet and here's the thing in fact, nine of the forensic evidence that was collected from the scene life clothes and you know the gun that was used. None of that was turned over to the labs for testing until after the fdle came in and rusty started investigating. So basically, all this stuff is just been sitting there for four months without any DNA test. No checks for fingerprints nothing. An internal report from the Saint John. County Sheriff's Office actually confirms this, but it doesn't say what caused the holdup but now that the FDA elise involved all of the forensics that haven't been analyzed finally do go out for testing. Once the forensic test results start coming back. The raise even more questions. And it's not so much. What's there but really what's not there that raises the questions like for example, you would think that since this is Jeremy's service weapon that was used tests would show his fingerprints and his DNA on both the gun and his gun belt, right? Yeah. I mean at least on the Gun Belqas, you'd be putting out every day. There, isn't any what's Michele's DNA is on the gun but none of Jeremy's even though according to the Huffington Post piece I mentioned he wore the belt and the gun to work the same day Michelle died and Jeremy does deny cleaning his gun before any responders got to the scene. Now in the same vein of missing DNA where you'd expect to find some the tests don't find any of Michelle's fingerprints or DNA on Jeremy's pill bottles even know the bottles were open in her purse and the pills were in her pocket. Okay and along those same lines I read in the Saint John County. Sheriff's Office report that there were fifty and a half pills in Michele's pocket, and there's no DNA on the pills themselves. Now, the report doesn't clarify if that's none of Michelle's DNA none of Jeremy's DNA or both, but I have to maybe assume both since they say, no DNA on any of them which to me like if there's no DNA on the pills, that's one thing because you know you could say she just dump the pills, straighten your pocket from the bottles and didn't put her hand on them. But like you said earlier, we know that her prince DNA weren't found on the bottles either. So. That doesn't make sense at all right right and what about gunshot residue did they do any testing on Michelle and Jeremy, am I got I got super curious about this one because when I was first researching this case, it sounded like the gunshot residue tests didn't happen until months later after the FDLE came in when maybe they don't even count was that you can't do that. That's just not how the tests work like I was like listen I've seen it on TV whatever but I was even like you know maybe TV lies I even went and talked to one of my contacts who's a former homicide detective and I was like, okay break it down for me how would It be possible to test gunshot residue four months later, and he basically said there are two types of tests both tests are like swab or you like swab someone's hand one is instant the other you have to send off to a lab. So I did a little bit more digging into that same report from the sheriff's Office and it does clarify that they say the tests were done at the scene like they should have been but that the results are analyzed until February of two thousand eleven, which is five months after Michelle's debt. So the best I can put together is that we're talking about that second kind of test where they swab but again, until lab for analysis. For whatever he didn't send it off according to the report. There's significant gunshot residue on Michelle's hands, which is consistent with the theory that she died by shooting herself. Now, the report also says the test turned up trace amounts of gunshot residue on Jeremy's hands that quote may not be forensically significant and quote. So what does that mean? On the outside, I mean, both of these things seem pretty straightforward but here's where the results start to kick up some questions because as Walt Bogdanich and Glenn Silvers New York? Times piece mentions gunshot residue tests can come back positive just from going into a room after a guns been fired or from touching person who's been in that room. So Jeremy Claims that he was cradling Michelle in his arms right after she was shot. and. He also claims that he did not wash his hands before the test. So just because he has some on him, doesn't mean he necessarily handle the weapon but. I kind of take that to mean the same thing you even though she has someone hers obviously she was in the room where she was shot I don't know enough about this testing of it's true. One way it can also be true the other way as well. Yeah, and that's the thing I don't know enough about the testing to make some kind of determination either way. I don't feel like anyone has picked this apart far enough at least in anything that I could find to make me feel sure of anything. So aside from getting this forensic stuff that somehow got overlooked rusty also digs deeper into Michelle and Jeremy's homelife. He gets a University of Florida child protection. Team to talk to the one person who lived with them and may have some insight. Michelle's daughter. Alexis. was made possible with article. 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That's article dot com slash crime junkie to get fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more. According to ABC News Alexis, who's five years old now since to indicate that there was in fact, violence in Michelle and Jeremy's relationship. She says, he fights with Michelle and that she saw him hit Michelle one time with a belt according to Alexis Michelle would say stop stop, but Jeremy would not stop now. Again Jeremy's always denied ever getting violent with Michelle during an interview with rusty he says, he did what his hands on her once but only to restrain her after she allegedly charged him. Jeremy's workers at the sheriff's Office. All tend to echo what he's saying when rusty interviews them, they say, they never had seen him get violent but according to frontline in the New York Times at least one deputy this guy named Michael who used a room with Jeremy mentioned that Jeremy has a bad temper like Michael actually calls it uncontrollable and he claims that alcohol makes it worse. But again, Michael reiterates that even though he seemed Jeremy get drunk and he's seen him throw things never seen him turned to violence. Now, obviously you have to get this background info, but you can see how it becomes a bit of a said she said, they said kind of thing, and at the end of the day, what's going to close this case and for all is some kind of physical proof of what happened. So rusty turns back to the physical evidence and something rusty's super interested in during his investigation is how exactly Michelle could have shot herself like why she would have fired two shots instead of just one how she was holding the gun stuff like that. So. As we can see in the photos taken at the scene which have been made public and we'll have on our website. The gun is next to Michelle's left-hand suggesting that she used her left hand to hold the gun and fire the shots. I the so-called test shot then a second shot to her mouth with the bullet traveling from front to back. The second bullet is buried in the carpet on Michele's right side like we can see in the photos. It's like up in the space between her like armpit her side but there's a problem with this whole scene she was right handed wasn't Jae Yup she was. So it's weird then to be finding the gun on her left side, why would she be using her non dominant hand to take her own life as to the second bullet according to ABC News the Sheriff says it's actually not all that weird for a suicidal person to fire a test shot so I mean none of this is impossible right but just like everything else that we've seen in that, I've told you about this story like. Everything you find just raises more questions. Is it possible? She fired a shot? Yeah. Is it possible that she took her own life using her left hand with the gun? Yeah. Is it likely? I don't know. To, help find answers rusty calls in crime scene reconstruction expert. This guy named Jerry he's super experienced because he's been doing this for forty years and Jerry comes back with a different conclusion than the Saint John County. Sheriff's Office. He says, Michelle died by homicide to backup his believe Jerry mentions how the shell casings were found to the back end to the left of Michelle's body as if the shooter was left handed and again we know Michelle isn't. But what was interesting is in a lot of the sources I read, they mentioned that guess who is left hand it's Jeremy Jeremy. Now, he doesn't find anything to indicate that the gun would have been held any other way than basically like right side up with the magazine pointing towards every way that basically, if you imagine someone holding a gun and I know that seems crazy now but just remember that because he's saying like the gun is in a very normal position. Now in Jerry's view it suspicious that there was none of Jeremy's DNA on his own done in addition to all that to Jerry points to how the. Cut on Michelle's face is the same size as the gunsight on Jeremy Service weapon, and he believes that Michelle got that cut before the gun was fired, which would indicate that she was essentially beaten with McGowan before it shot her. So how does he know that it happened before was the cut leading or started healing I don't know my sources don't clarify why he thinks this mean again, we are not forensic experts but I know there are certain things you can look for in a wound. Exactly. What was your blood pumping at the time? Was it not but for whatever he's looking at he things that happened before she was actually shot. So not as a result of being shot or something that came out of the gun or whatever. Right. So in the spring of two thousand eleven, rusty starts distributing his findings to the appropriate people like a state attorney's office and the medical examiner, Dr Hogan who remember initially Concluded that Michelle died by suicide and that he didn't find any signs of battery the State's Attorney's office starts doing their own investigation in April and they actually talk about exhuming Michelle's body. The O'CONNELL's are totally on board with it they'll sign all the forms do whatever they have to do and Dr Hogan agrees to change his findings from suicide to homicide but get this according to frontline the state prosecutor tells him like. Before you like file anything like he just hold off a minute, let's not file an amended death certificate just quite yet. What why not will Dr Hogan Tells front-line that the state prosecutor wants him to wait because the cases about to go in a new direction he doesn't give any more detail about whether or not the prosecutor told him what direction that might be or why he should wait though in October of two thousand eleven after months of working on Michelle's case the. State prosecutor then recused himself dude his offices relationship with the sheriff's Office. So he's like hold on a minute a couple months go by then he's recusing himself, and then after he recused himself, a second medical examiner gets involved with the case and he comes back. We ate shocking new theory. This second medical examiner Dr Bullish says that he believes now Michelle died by suicide and that she used her non dominant left hand to hold and shoot Jeremy's gun with the gun upside down. According to him he's being interviewed by frontline. This explains everything he says holding the gun upside down made the recoil action force the tactical light into Michelle's face, which he says is what causes the cut on her face and accounts for why the cut is the same size as the gunsight now walt bugged damage is actually the person interviewing Dr Boo and he asks him to demonstrate what this would look like because it sounds bizarre and I'm GonNa show you a screen shot that I took from frontlines. You can really get the full impact of what he's saying, okay. I'm looking at the picture and I'm going to be honest this whole theory sounds. Ridiculous and kind of like they're just trying to make things match to what they want to be. True. Right. Why made such a point earlier of saying like yeah the gun was held like anyone would hold a gun i. don't know it just keeps getting more and more ridiculous, right? Like okay. If we're going to say she held it with her non dominant hand like that's already kind of weird enough done to hold. Down why even more unnatural even if you are using your dominant hand yeah. It seems like what's happening is instead of looking at the scene and having the physical evidence, give you clues as to what's happened this is like the worst case scenario we talk about right where someone goes in with a theory and it's like, okay what ridiculous thing do I have to come up with to make the physical evidence fit this idea I already have exactly like you said, how do we make this fits what we want essentially right? According to The New York Times Dr Bullets also puts the brakes on. Michelle's body and I wasn't able to find for my research exactly when in two thousand and eleven Dr Bullet comes on board or when he reaches his conclusion about how he believed Michelle died but I do know that after the state prosecutor recused himself in October of two thousand eleven. The Governor of Florida appoints a special prosecutor in December that same year to take over the investigation. Three months later in March of two, thousand, twelve, the special prosecutor gives Michelle's family. Some devastating news Jeremy Banks won't be charged with homicide. The case is closed and still officially a suicide. Now obviously the O'CONNELL's are beyond heartbroken to them. This is a grave injustice by a system more interested in protecting its own than finding out the truth. On, the opposite side of the coin, the Saint John County Sheriff's Office won't let it go either according to the Saint Augustine record in February of two thousand, Thirteen Sheriff David shore orders a review of the whole investigation including everything his department did in everything rusty and the fd l.. E. Did now keep in mind. He only does this after he learns The New York Times is investigating. A month later, his office puts out this huge report over one hundred and fifty pages long, and it's a doozy. The report does list out things that it's concluded the sheriff's office messed up during their investigation like how they never canvas the neighborhood for witnesses didn't interview Jeremy Properly didn't establish a formal time line of events didn't get Jeremy or Michelle's cellphone records stuff like that. So it's definitely acknowledging that they could have done better but a lot of the report is spent criticizing Rusty's methodology his findings and the F. D. L. is whole investigation. One piece of this that really stands out is the bit about the two witnesses that rusty found those women who say that they heard screaming the report alleges that both of the witnesses had admitted that they smoked pot together regularly and they couldn't remember if they'd been smoking on the night of Michelle's a debt but here's the thing both women say wait a minute we never said that and according to the New York. Times and investigator backs them up and mind you this allegation comes after both women past their polygraphs and even though one of them actually reaches out to the sheriff to have the report corrected as of like the time that I'm recording and as. Of the last update I could find on this request, which was two, thousand thirteen. He wouldn't update it. So I don't know where they got that information. If the women who were interviewed are saying we never said that and I even did go back and look for this in my copy of the report which I got off the way back machine crawl from like two thousand fifteen and there's nothing in there about marijuana but there's a whole block of redacted text in the section talking about the witnesses. So I wonder if it got redacted at the time of release or maybe that was like their version of taking it back because they went in and redacted it later. redacting for public viewing is not the same as amending a statement that the witness claim to be false. Ultimately, shariff shore himself is so displeased with Rossi's handling the investigation that he gets the Florida Department of law enforcement to investigate rusty, and he makes some pretty serious accusations that could change everything. This episode was made possible by Monday dot com before audio chuck was ever the podcast powerhouse it is I was using Monday dot com to keep our team organized an on track and we still use it today and in fact long before I even had a podcast I used Monday dot com in my previous life out of Software Development Company No matter what the industry? No matter what the size business Monday dot com is an easy to use flexible and visual teamwork platform beautifully designed to manage any team organization or process online Monday dot com enables teams to move faster and reach their goals and it is super customizable like I can't stress this enough. No matter what department you're in what kind of company you work for. You can pick a perfect kind of template to manage your projects and see exactly where the project stands at a glance. I'm telling you it's life changing. You can set up your account in ten minutes and you can invite team members to join and collaborate together. So if you want your team to be more effective than ever visit, Monday dot Com for your free two week trial. According to the Saint, Augustine record sheriff shore alleges that rusty coached witnesses and falsified information. So he could get search warrants and sway medical authorities. He believes that rusty stopped being impartial and started acting like an advocate for the O'CONNELL family instead, and in April of two thousand, thirteen, the fdle grease rusty's placed on administrative leave and doesn't get reinstated until two thousand sixteen. Okay. But shouldn't rusty be an advocate for the family I. Guess I'm confused as to why that's a bad thing I. I actually had the same thought. I was like Gosh. I would hope that someone investigating you know my sister's death was now would also want to find justice for my family. Yeah. Yeah. I think though the point that they're trying to make which I do see is that is the same I was right like I don't want anyone trying to fit something into a theory. If you're truly doing an investigation properly, you have to go in impartial. You aren't advocating for a family you art advocating for a deputy you're advocating for advocating for justice and for the. Truth Right. So I I think that that was their point not that like someone's shouldn't be there for the family just shoot me got to like emotionally involved Brian acted right? Okay. That makes sense clouds like I would also want an ad riot maybe I'm crazy right the advocate is in the person who's there to find the truth I. They can be right cordial with you. They can be you know like a with you. They can share information with you but it doesn't mean that they're trying to prove what you. Believe. So then what happened Jeremy so he was actually put on routine administrative leave back in September of two thousand ten and I won't bore you with all of the other like back and forth in two thousand thirteen. But you should know that jeremy actually sues both rusty Rogers and the fdle in November of that year claiming that his civil rights have been violated and basically saying that he's been wrongly accused of killing Michelle O'CONNELL. Now, even though this feels like the case has hit a wall Michelle's family doesn't give up. Time goes on but interest in Michele's case doesn't ever fully disappear PBS frontline and the New York Times do this huge joint investigation that comes out in November of two, thousand, thirteen, and one of the things they make public is that Jeremy got access to the sheriff's offices investigative report less than two weeks after Michele died a how did he get his hands on that? He doesn't say the New York Times. has a link to the videotape second interview that he did at the station twelve days after Machel's death, and he straight up just admits like, yeah, I've read the file even though I. Know I. Probably shouldn't have. So this project from the New, York Times and frontline puts a lot more is back on Michelle's case, but it stays kind of dormant in two thousand fourteen when suddenly that fall a new witness emerges. According to Matt reporting for ABC News. A man named Danny comes forward and tells police Jeremy came into his bar the night after Michelle died and made some pretty disturbing comments. He claims that Jeremy told him. All Michelle did was make him feel bad about himself and that he wasn't going to let her hold him back anymore. The HUFFINGTON Post. Reported that allegedly Jeremy said quote the. Dot which she deserved an quote. Jeremy Denies Ever. Saying this or even being at Danny's bar but the allegation is enough to change everything on October third two, thousand, fourteen, the governor of Florida puts out an executive order to we open Michelle's case and assign a special prosecutor to investigate. It feels like the answer to the O'CONNELL family prayers. What are the odds is gets open again but their hope fades as time goes on and on July twenty, ninth two, thousand, Fifteen, this special prosecutor finds there's not enough evidence to support a murder charge finally in two thousand sixteen, the family decides to do what investigators so far have refused to do exhume. And have an independent medical examiner do another autopsy. The findings are an absolute bombshell according to Matt doorns piece in the Huffington Post the new medical examiner finds that Michelle's jaw had been broken before she died in a way that's consistent with blunt force trauma beyond that he also finds her tongue is in this position that is super abnormal for people who died by gunshot but suicide instead it's like in a position that shows Michelle almost would have been like gagging before the gun went off. So like the gun was jammed into her mouth. By force, as opposed to her choosing to put it there. That's exactly what this is alleging. Yes. Now, nothing in the original autopsy report from Dr, Hogan, mentioned anything, about Michelle's Jogging Broken Jeremy's lawyer tells ABC News that Dr Hogan didn't Miss it and that it's mentioned in his field notes with the gun shop able to cause the broken jaw according to this new medical examiner no. Because the only damage he saw from the gunshot was a hole in Michele's tongue if the shot was strong enough to break her jaw that he believes it. Would have pretty much obliterated all of the soft tissue and done a lot more damage. Now, as I'm sure you can imagine these findings ruffle a lot of feathers in the Saint John County Sheriff's Office sheriff shore is furious about the whole thing and actually here will you read me the statement that he puts out about this the statement says quote molesting Michelle from her place of rest using some freelance type approach is beyond unconventional. It was reprehensible a paid expert witness was hired by these family members to produce a report that of course. Would support their belief about this case and quote for his part the medical examiner who did the second autopsy tells ABC News that contrary to what sheriff shore says he did everything pro. Bono. Once again, though even with these new findings, no charges are brought against Jeremy Banks, and again, the public I eventually starts to move on Jeremy's lawsuit against rusty the fdle gets dismissed in two, thousand, eighteen but interest in Michelle, story never quite goes all the way away and it skyrockets when another death in Saint Johns County raises even more disturbing questions. Some time in two, thousand, eighteen, a thirty, eight year old person in Saint Augustine going by the name ally wash talk learns about Michelle Story from a TV show. I WANNA clarify that we know from various sources that identified as multiple genders throughout their lifetime. But since we don't know how they identified most recently and we definitely don't want to miss gender anyone, we're using very gender neutral pronouns and the name Yang. So anyway when. I. Here's about Michelle they're fascinated by this case and they have a lot of questions. So they start to look into it and see what they can find out. Nothing in my research tells me of ally starts off more casual gets like super interested along the way or if they jump like right into it head first full steam but either way they're serious these start collecting articles and getting public records from the sheriff's Office for their research like the whole nine yards and one of the things Eli does over the course of their investigation is reach out to Michelle's mom. Sarah Mirvish. Reported for the New York Times that they actually develop a really good relationship and meet up in person more than once another thing Eli dies is hire private investigators to do their own digging into Michelle's case like can pretty safely say that he Li- is a crime junkie even though they were focused on just this one case, another level though they are intense. Yes at some point during allies research, they noticed things happening that really worry them like what according to the daily Beast Michele's mom made a facebook comment alleging that ally had told her that a person she calls the suspect ran Eli and their son off the road. This comment alleges that this person was in a sheriff's patrol car at the time by January two, thousand, nineteen, eighty lie is seriously afraid to the point that they tell their neighbors things someone is going to kill them. More than their own safety, they're afraid for their two kids. So He Li- goes to the effort and expense to rent out a second condo on another floor of their building. So the kids can sleep they're both Eli son and daughter spend the night there in that second condo on January thirtieth two, thousand nineteen. And he like wasn't being just paranoid because the next morning on January thirty first before school allies son goes upstairs and right away he sees something is wrong Baloch on allies condo is broken. The boy goes inside only to stumble into a nightmare because they're inside is he lie shot to death Michelle's mom is devastated when she learns about allies debt and she has no doubts about what she things happen to them. She believes E. Y. learned too much about Michelle's death got too close to the truth and paid for it with their life. Nothing in my research shows exactly what he Li- believed. They knew about Michelle's death but I did read in Russell Coburn's peas on CBS forty, seven action news that about a week. Before, Eli was shot on January twenty, third two, thousand and nineteen. A forensic expert hired by Eli made a records request from the Saint John's County Sheriff's Office. They wanted Jeremy's full nine, one, one call and some specific photos from the scene in two thousand, ten in May of two thousand and nineteen allies. Death is formally declared a homicide but to date no suspects have been named in the murder and Noah arrests have been made. Michelle O'CONNELL's death is still officially a suicide and Jeremy Banks has never been charged with a crime related to her death. Even though the story feels like an endless stream of questions and loose ends, some facts are indisputable. Michelle Connell. Is Dead her daughter Lexi has grown up without a mother and many members of the O'CONNELL family. Still firmly believe that Michele's death was not caused by suicide despite with the official ruling says. Ten years on they are still holding on to hope that eventually they'll get the closure that they feel they have been denied. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts are showing warning signs please talk to someone you trust in the United States you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline twenty, four hours at one eight, hundred, two, seven, three talk that's one, eight, hundred, two, seven, three, eight, two, five, five, or text. Hello to seven four, one, seven, four, one we've included links to these and other suicide prevention resources on our website along with our source material and pictures for this episode. Just go to Crime Junkie PODCAST DOT COM and be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crimson podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but hang around for property up the money. Crime. Junkie is an audio chuck production. So. What do you think Chuck Do you approve? An. Okay Ashley, the people have spoken we. CanNot have another sad prompted month. That's fair. We've had some. I can't say that I disagree. So today I'm going to tell you a little bit about Benny the Border Collie which let me pause and like right that children's book right now. And his Human Meghan. So about ten years ago Megan was like a month out from completing her nursing degree and her then boyfriend. And her we're helping his mom do some volunteer work and as a thank you his mom was you know, what can I give you in return making a joke was like a puppy which is all of us I think yes, and again, like she was trying to wrap up her nursing degree she and her partner actually lived in different cities it was totally illogical but regardless, her boyfriend's mom set them up with an appointment at a local shelter shoes theaters. With those famous last words just to take all. These. Guys are all yourselves. Megan's mom drop them off at the shelter and she was like again, just looking and making was like, yeah, totally. One hundred percent. Agree they walk in they see some kind of rough and tumble little puppies honestly just exhausts me just the thought of it. One big. Fluffy white dog which heartstrings and a Border Collie. Megan was like absolutely not. They have so much. Energy are so smart need so much training and stimulation like that's that's not for me I can't do that right now. But they go into the fenced in area in the back and the dogs around whatever and Megan Pin looks over at the border collie and taps her leg. Hey, come here. And In an instance this guy was at her side. So she was like, okay. So she walks away and did it again and of course he flew. And they literally do this for like fifteen minutes and they during this time we found out they had some other tricks up his sleeve. He was Super Smart, super well-trained even though she knew she couldn't take him back to her apartment because they didn't allow dogs. The person at the shelter as they were leaving was like here's the deal. Here's a caller come back and put it on him. You don't decide to take him bring the car back which like that is so mind though. Can you imagine leaving a shelter without a dog but the guy is lake just take the call and then you're staring at the caller. Like this this shelter worker one, hundred percent. So they go home no dog collar in hand and Megan like here's the thing like if you really want this dog, how about I just keep him here until you can take him home and that was pretty much at all. They brought Benny the border Collie home, and he stayed with Megan's mom for about six weeks before Megan can move into an apartment that allow dogs. and. He moved in right away and here's the thing to me is Colleagues, right? Oh Yeah. Like they just like in my imagination just been insists exactly how I was picturing when you gather super smart and high energy like I imagine them like we're gonNA round up all the dogs I'm going to do this. Just go in circles all day long yet he was. Super Chill. He never barked he never had an accident in the house and he really only takes one walk a day like again like this. I can't say anything like any of these things about mytalk. One hundred like I have a pit mix and she seems more high-energy than Benny. and. Megan. said that she loves training him because again or callers Mars Super Super Smart. He would learn a trick in like a day and he now has his huge repertoire tricks but his favorite is one that he learned kind of by accident. So when they were training him, they taught him to sit pretty and he would sit down and it was cute little thing where he'd flip up one paw and then it of became incentives it pretty it's who's Q.. U. Are Benny. And he would exact same thing and this is kind of his party tricks. So whenever people come over, he rushes up to them sits down and sits pretty and looks cute and it's just like, hi I'm here would you like to give me a delicious treat by Chen and I'm sure they all do? That's like when you come to the office, he literally has like bamboozled all of us because he goes up to each and every one of us and like looks as though he hasn't eaten in weeks and like how dare no one gives him a tree and we all connect and find out that he's gotten. Ten treats in a matter of like minutes the last time I was there I was in your office and you gave him like one or two treats and then like. By. Toss something in your office I go downstairs and somehow has like half a muffin and someone's giving him another. Like this kid is eating more than I do. It's so true. But yeah, mega that no one can resist Benny's charm. So Megan friend actually broke up but Megan got to keep any winnings split and he was obviously the best remedy for her during that time companion travel by she went from Canada where they lived to Florida and then a new person and moved to New Zealand girl and then he went them but. He had survived ten days of quarantine during the travel. I was just GonNa. All of this. This is the thing that keep what because we take chuck literally ever we don't go everywhere. That's why I will vote in quarantine like why before I hadn't gone anywhere overseas since I got chuck is because we take him everywhere and my husband had even gotten offered a job. And we it down because I was like I I i. took Chuck to like this beautiful boarding place one time for a week when we went on vacation and it's like literally had like cuddle time at night. He had doggy clay time he lost like when I. The Times I've ever board dogs. It's been like they have their own together with separate bags. They have a TV special blankets they get nighttime treats its yeah. Honestly better than I treat my kids sometimes like it's luxury at its finest. But when I took chuck, he literally lost ten pounds it had clumps of hair falling out so to even think about having to quarantine him like I I'm so happy they're happy New Zealand I just like I wish I could. I wish I could go skip that part. Yes. So are you crying? No I'm really I'm. Actually. GonNa. Like we are doing a happy one I already said that. They've been in New Zealand for a while and Benny is always down for an adventure. So this is like totally his life and her and her new person actually adopted another dog, another border collie named Sika who I want to honor and say, but she did pass to quickly and I'm just GonNa flow over that because again for focusing on happy things. But within two months of seekers passing, they brought home Chica who is Benny's constant playmate she is almost two years old and Benny just. Thirteen which also went to add Megan said in quotes which I fully support. Because dogs are ageless they're gonna live forever and by the way SICA in Chico sounds like you're sequel to Benny the border Collie. Exactly I love it I'm obsessed and even though Benny is slowing down he always has time to play with Chica even if Chica is doing most of the running And Megan went through a reason break up with her partner. But she made sure that I knew that Benny continues to be her most faithful man in her life and she got to keep Chica and the listen I was just GonNa. Say or you said that earlier about the first break up I. was like listen partners come and go proposes forever dogs are for number yet and so that. Is a story of bunny that border Collie and his Human Meghan and his friends Sika in Chica and her true life partner soulmates truly and Megan actually when I was talking to her she said that if we want to highlight a shelter like we always do end of these episodes, she recommends Second Chance Animal Rescue in Alberta Canada because that is actually society that she got Benny from where. People just hand you empty calories and say I'll see you later I love by the mind control they're. They're onto something I hope everyone who runs the shelter listens to this and just like by some extra callers. Totally so we will have any story and pictures of Benny and link to second chance animal rescue society on our website. So be sure to check that out.