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Trump holds firm on border wall as democrats plan votes to reopen government with new wall funding; Time: Manafort pressured by Russians during campaign; Trump holds firm on border wall as democrats plan votes to reopen government with new wall funding;
Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of affordable. Eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five. No ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits. Any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Don't miss the best sixty seconds of football every week Adam left go here. Be our host make sure to tune into the new episodes of the original series gridiron heights. Every Tuesday night on the be our app. Make sure to check it out. I definitely will. Happening now new year shutdown with much of the government shutdown all around him, President Trump the White House cut in this Year's Eve shooting up tweet like fireworks. As he battled Democrats willing quarter wall accused of fine Russia arrests in American citizen in Moscow of fusing him of espionage is that a move retaliate after an alleged Russian spies guilty to trying to influence U. Tallest these during the election campaign. Warren's run Elizabeth Warren announces an exploratory committee for presidential run. But at the same time, she's in all the way, she says Pucci, the democrat to take on President Trump and securing time swear, thousands of police assault units and bomb sniffing dogs will be working to keep Year's Eve travelers irregulars, I should say safe in New York's Times Square for the first time a drone will provide is in the sky. Wolf Blitzer is off I'm Briana Keeler. This is a situation room special report. It's New Year's Eve and day ten of the government shutdown. President Trump is again home alone for the holiday. He began his celebration with Twitter tirade contradicting his outgoing chief of staff by saying he never abandoned the idea of a concrete border wall calling the southern border and open wounds and saying Democrats should come back from vacation and fix it. Democrats are planning votes to reopen the government without offering new funding for a wall. The president also suggests he should be hailed as a national hero for his stance on Syria, attacking what he calls failed generals who've criticized this fruitful out, I'll be speaking with democratic congressman Ruben guy, go of the Armed Services Committee, and our correspondents specialists are standing by with full coverage. We do begin at the White House and with CNN's just convene no movement just on this shutdown standoff. No, no movement from here at the White House brianna as you mentioned President Trump here. Here at the White House after cancelling those New Year's Eve plans to go down tomorrow law. Go his wife and their son down in Florida tonight. But he as an aide says is who's in the Oval Office today. We certainly haven't seen much of him. But we have heard a lot from him on Twitter that's been his primary mode of communication throughout these past several days. He talks about the shutdown in one thing is certainly clear he is digging in on the wall and the money that he wants to fund it. Ten days into the partial government shutdown sources involved with negotiations say President Trump is privately telling lawmakers and officials he will not sign a Bill with only one point three billion dollars for border security. The current democratic offer today the president sending out flurry of tweets on the shutdown taking shots at the Democrats. Saying quote, I'm in the Oval Office. Democrats come back from vacation now and give us the votes necessary for border security, including the wall, but Democrats appear equally dung in taking control of the house on Thursday. They plan to vote on a package that maintains the one point three billion dollars for border security, but no wall funding still following a two hour lunch with the president on Sunday, Senator Lindsey Graham remained optimistic a compromise. Could be reached in the next few days in commit? But I think he's very open minded meantime, new details about the administration's attempted rebranding of the Trump wall outgoing chief. Of staff. John Kelly telling the Los Angeles Times, quote to be honest. It's not a wall. He went on explaining the president's still says wall, oftentimes, frankly hill say barrier or fencing now he's tended toward steel slats. But we left a solid concrete wall early on in the administration when we asked people what they needed and where they needed it. The comments lead Trump to fire back tweeting and all concrete wall was never abandoned as has been reported by the media, some areas will be all concrete, but the experts at border patrol prefer wall that is see through thereby making it possible to see what is happening on both sides make sense to me the president also brought the Obamas into his border wall. Fight tweeting president and MRs Obama built has ten foot wall around their DC mansion compound. I agree totally necessary for their safety and security, the US needs the same thing slightly larger version, the US secret service. Did erect a barrier gate in front of the Obamas home before they moved in the house is located on a residential street in Washington DC, and he also brought the deaths of two migrant children at the border into the fight blaming their deaths on Democrats tweeting any deaths of children are others at the border are strictly the fault of the Democrats in their pathetic immigration policies that allow people to make the long trek thinking they can enter our country illegally. They can't if we had a wall, they wouldn't even try as Trump seems unmoved on the money. He needs for the border wall is decision to remove US troops from Syria may be slowing down Senator Graham telling reporters, the president agreed to reevaluate in order to find the best way to move forward with the withdrawal. And they were slowing things down in a smart way. With the goal has always been the same debate relieve Syria. Make sure I says never comes back. Our partners are taking care of an Iran's contained, and I think that's possible. It's gonna take a little. Longer than everybody thought. But hopefully, we can get there. The president also tweeting about Syria saying he plans to slowly bring back the troops while continuing defied ISIS, and he says brianna this is what he always promised to do when he was on the campaign trail. He's just making good on that promise. All right. Jessica dean at the White House. Thank you. Now. Democrats are pursuing a strategy to reopen the government while denying the president what he wants. Let's bring in CNN congressional. Correspondent Phil Mattingly. Is this going to work if your baseline is reopening the government? The short answer is probably not right now. It's been made very clear Democrats once they take power in the house on Thursday speaker to be Nancy Pelosi. You always made clear she was going to pass something right off the bat reopen the government what Democrats have decided to do is basically six of the unfunded agencies. At this moment would be passed in a bipartisan way with Senate appropriations bills, the seventh the department of homeland security, which is obviously the most contentious part because that's where the wall would go with the president got it that will be passed at the continuing resolution level. So current fund. Raising up until February. Here's the catch Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell. The majority leader has made clear he's not going to put anything on the floor that the president doesn't support. What are these bills? Not have. They do not have any extra money for a border wall. They don't have money for a border while period. And that means that even though House Democrats are going to move forward on something. This is not the answer so long as the president maintains his current position brianna everybody I'm talking to on Capitol Hill has made clear someone is going to have to blink at this point in time. Democrats have made clear they feel very comfortable in their current position. And I just point you to the president's Twitter account. If you don't think he's comfortable in his. So the big question becomes what is the way out at this point in time, this likely, isn't it it's Blake probably going to take another couple of days, maybe even weeks as well. But more than anything else. It's going to take somebody's saying I have to give up basically at this point. And nobody is there yet. So ten days right now could go twelve could go fourteen. I'm told weeks is real possibility at this is stunning. Phil mattingly. Thank you so much. Russia has. Detained a US citizen in Moscow, accusing him of spying and this comes after alleged Russian spy Mary boot, nna pleaded guilty to conspiring to influence U S policy toward Russia during the election campaign. C N N's Brian Todd is here with that. So what are you learning is their connection here? Brianna neither US officials nor the Russians are saying tonight that there is a connection with former CIA officers. We spoke with say, they're very likely is a connection. Now, Vladimir Putin has denied he would ever retaliate in kind. But we're told Putin has been furious over the Maria boot and a case. Tonight flat. Amir Putin's security services could have a key bargaining chip in their ongoing spy operations against the US. Russia's federal security service. The FSB says it has detained an American citizen in Moscow, quote while carrying out an act of espionage, the Kremlin identifies him as Paul nNcholas. Waylon says. Bulla wheel the tonight. There's virtually no other information available about him and the Russians aren't being any more specific on what they accuse Waylon of doing. I think this is a tit-for-tat our relations with Russia a going downhill very quickly we've been identified Russian spies. We've rested who Tina Hooton is furious about it Maria booting up the accused Russian spy who just struck. A plea deal is still in jail in the US and is cooperating with federal prosecutors US officials have suggested in court papers that Bhutan was specifically tasked by her Russian handlers with infiltrating conservative political groups in America such as the NRA Putin recently complained publicly about her case denying any knowledge of Bhutan. No one knows anything about her. At all. The only thing anyone knows about her is that she worked at the Federation Council for one of the deputies. That's it as for Paul Whalen. Former CIA officer Bob Baer says he thinks it's unlikely that Waylon works for the US government, which he says doesn't usually send spies to Moscow unless they're under diplomatic cover. Waylon? He says could have simply been working for a private company and was conveniently rounded up bear says it's possible. The Russians will hold Waylon until Bhuttan case is resolved and she returns to Russia. But he says Putin is under a great deal of pressure inside Russia and may want more for the American than just Maria. Bhutan. A lot of the oligarchs are being sanctioned by the United States. They want those sanctions off they want relief. We're going to have to sit somebody down with the KGB ask them what they want to make this go away main. But frankly, the guy's a hostage in it's up to the Russians. How long they want to hold them. And whether it's serving Putin's interests, Putin Reese. Gently said he would not arrest any quote innocent people for any kind of spice one now so far US officials either have very little information on Paul Whalen, or they simply don't want to save very much. A State Department spokesman telling CNN they are aware of the Americans detention and they have requested access to him. But right now, there's no indication of when or even whether the Kremlin is going to grant that access brianna Brian Todd. Thank you so much now. President Trump wasn't the only one tweeting today. There's been a rather strange message that was sent out by the US strategic command which controls the launch of US nuclear weapons. Let's turn to CNN Hannigan. Correspondent Barbara Starr on this. This is a this is something that had us going is this real? That's right brianna. And it is real the US military says all they were trying to do is remind everyone in the world that twenty four seven the US military's always ready to respond if needed but get a load of this. It's New Year's Eve, everyone is looking for a very peaceful happy holiday, and here's what the US strategic command decided to tweet and let me quote, and then we'll show you the video. But I they say time square tradition. Rings in the new year by dropping the big ball if ever needed. We are ready to drop something much bigger watch to the end. We'll watch the video that they posted with this. This is a b two bomber nuclear capable. But in this video it is dropping in test-firing two of the biggest bombs the US military has thirty thousand pound bombs in this weapons test that was recently conducted and now attached to this meshes message saying if ever needed we're ready to. Drop something much bigger than the Times Square ball. Awkward peculiar up to everyone to decide what they think about all this generally understood that the US military is ready twenty four seven, but they were sending this message out at a time when we're seeing tonight the transition between secretary Madison the new acting secretary Pat Shanahan when the Russians are testing hypersonic weapons when the North Korean situation is unresolved when the Chinese are moving ahead expanding their weapons Arsenault peculiar timing perhaps to say the least brianna indeed Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. And joining me now is democratic congressman Ruben Geico era Zona, he's a member of the Armed Services Committee. He's also an Iraq combat veteran congressman thanks so much for being with us. Thank you. So we have a lot to discuss. I that tweet. I saw you raise your eyebrows. What did you think about that? I think is very tacky power whispers, especially when it comes into relations for insecurity. We don't need to be acting this way. That's how. A diminutive country would act not the world's most powerful country in the world. Is it the timing of it is making light of something so serious? I don't know what they're trying to say. But it's really unprofessional. Whoever did that should really be reprimanded. Let's talk about the shutdown. Democrats are planning to vote on Thursdays, you know, on funding bills from the start of this. They're really going to go nowhere in the end. So what is the endgame? Where is the next step in the one after that? Well, our endgame has always been the be the responsible party and keep government open. And that's why we actually struck a deal with the Republicans and the senators that got one hundred percent of the support from the Senate about ninety nine percent of members of congress. And then was rejected by this president when a couple of right wing pundits decided that they did not like the deal at the end of the day. We're going to both bring border security money to the fold and fund government. Now, we're not gonna do is support a irresponsible use of money for a border wall. That is not needed specifically because the president has not truly even used the money that we already allocated to them in the last funding. So you're you're putting up. Votes on funding bills that aren't going to be taken up by the Senate. So does that mean doing something clearly sending a message? But in the end, not getting something accomplished does that mean that you as Democrats are very comfortable with where you are. You're not going to blink in this. Why the most important thing that we are comfortable with is that we know that we are standing in the right position for this country. We're going to do the best we can to open portions of government that we think we'd find some consensus. Then just because we can't come to agreement when it comes to homeland security funding. Does that mean that we have to keep the rest of government close? Hopefully, Serna McConnell, Greece. It doesn't hopefully Donald Trump. President Trump is with us. Also, we continue to go shooting. But I think that this stance that are taking is typically responsible. You also serve on the Armed Services Committee after announcing a full withdrawal of troops from Syria. The president is now saying this quote were slowly sending our troops back home to be with their families while at the same time, fighting ISIS remnants, are you encouraged by what seems to be a modifying of the time line. If. Even if the total withdrawal stands why what we should do is actually have a proper authorization of use of military force in Syria. So we could actually project what our goals are to both our enemies and to the United States. I've actually had been for a withdrawal of our troops from Syria. I would have done it in any manner that is more consistent and predictable and working with our allies in protecting them at the same time. But the best way to do it for all sides, whether it's the president's position or whether it's a war hawk like Graham is for us actually have an authorized use of military force a real one one that cleared defines what our goals are not exactly what we have right now, which really has been I think a total mistreatment of of the two thousand three authorized use of military force. And I think that's why you're having a lot of confusion with from the president. And from the Senate doesn't seem to be a series, of course of calls for that though. Well, there should be an I certainly will be leading that in the house. And I think there's going to be a lot of senators will Democrats and Republicans it will be doing that. And I think we should have done under Obama. We didn't. And we should continue. You're pushing that under here. President trump. I want to ask you about a video that CNN just obtained. I do want to warn our viewers. This is this is tough to watch. This is upsetting. It shows staffers at an Arizona facility pushing and dragging migrant children and the company that ran this facility southwest key. It's the largest provider of shelters for migrant children in the country. We knew that this had happened that that bad behavior at happened. We knew this back in October. But this video is new. I wonder what's your reaction to this? Also is this seems to I think increase awareness and more concern. But also, the idea of this is what we have now seen their other things perhaps that are unseen was the place to a couple of things are very important number one. We need to have oversight, especially the way that DHS and the president been rushing these separation of families and separation of children from their parents, we as government are the acting parents. And if we have a cavalier attitude, such as John Kelly would when he was asked first time that they're going to be separated or something of that nature or the president's current attitude where he's trying to blame on everyone. But himself we need to have oversight with from us in congress. The Senate the president as well as local officials would finally actually happened. Here was local journalists that got a hold of this. Video enforce the American Coty shift to actually file charges, and it's unfortunate that so we had to do. But that is a really good example of true checks on someone that is probably probably is going a lot of times across this country. All right. Congressman gago. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being with us. Happy new year to you is to you. Up next Paul Manafort reportedly came under heavy pressure from Russian associates, including a former spy the payback have the debts could this have affected his actions while he was Trump campaign chairman, but first we're tracking show abrasions around the world take a look at how the new year rolled in just moments ago in Athens. You know, what smart kicking off twenty nineteen by planning out, which rolls you need to hire. For and you can start by using the smartest way to hire. Ziprecruiter. Ziprecruiter's powerful matching technology finds the right people for you. And actively invites them to apply. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US this rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over one thousand reviews and right now listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash situation. If you love this show show your support to it ends up recruiter by going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash sl. A TI ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Paul Manafort was reportedly pressured by Russian associates to pay back. Heavy debts millions of dollars while serving as chairman of the Trump campaign time magazine cites a former Russian intelligence agent is saying he put the squeeze on Manafort and this comes is Manafort awaits sentencing for financial convictions. And for a broken plea agreement with special counsel Robert Mueller. We have CNN Justice. Correspondent Jessica Schneider. Joining us now, a was Manafort compromise. That's the question. He was certainly vulnerable to it. Right. And that's probably the key question here that Muller's team is now investigating especially because of all the timing Innis brianna. It raises serious questions about how much leverage the Russians may have had over Paul Manafort at the same time that he was running Donald Trump's campaign in the summer of two thousand sixteen so time magazine reports that Manafort was in touch with former Russian intelligence officer Victor boy Arken at the height of the presidential campaign now by boy Arkin was trying to collect on the reported nineteen million dollars. That Manafort owed Russian billionaire Oleg Darrow pasta and pasta has close ties to the Kremlin and Ladimir Putin. And he was even sanctioned earlier this year by the US. So this is what boy arc in told time magazine. He said this. He said he owed us a lot of money meeting Manafort, and he was offering ways to pay it back. I came down on him hard. Now, one of the ways that Manafort reportedly offered to pay up. We'll time magazine says Manafort offered their pasta through another middleman Constantine Kalinic private briefings about the presidential race in an effort to quote, get whole now boy Arken has acknowledged to time magazine that he has been approached by Muller's team as they investigate any possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, and while York and could potentially have some light to shed. Because of course, Manafort ran the campaign at the same time he was in touch with these Russians boy Arkan's actually telling time magazine this about Muller's team. He says, quote, I told them to go dig a ditch. So. Brianna boy Arken not playing not playing nice with the special counsels t in the special counsel though, meanwhile, not commenting about this. Neither is Paul Manafort. But definitely some interesting questions there about what that connection was in. There's any level, and what does nine nine hundred million dollars worth of access look like, but there's a lot going on. There's a mystery case in molars Russia probe. It's been challenged all the way up to the supreme court. Right. That's exactly right. So this is that mystery secret case here at Volve of few details have been revealed on this except that an unnamed foreign government owned company has been found in contempt for not complying with a grand jury subpoena related to the special counsel's investigation. So this unknown company they've been fighting every step of the way, and while the to DC federal courts have said now that the company must hand over information about its commercial activity in relation to this criminal investigation. The company has asked the supreme court to stop the citation. They got for not complying. It's. The citation where they'd actually be fined for every day that they were in violation of this now two days before Christmas, the chief Justice John Roberts. He actually gave that mystery company a reprieve he issued a temporary pause on that daily fine. And now it's up to the full supreme court. They are poised to step in to decide if that contempt order will continue to be put on hold or if the company must start paying up refusing to comply with the subpoena. So all of this has been done in secret all the filings under seal, and so the next step is brianna. And the question is will the supreme court actually side with the company in this? Or will they come down on Muller side? It's up to five justices to decide what happens next because this initial decision by chief Justice John Roberts. It was just the first step in this. Is there any indication of which way they will go? We shouldn't read into this posits a -sarily. Right. Exactly. I mean, John Roberts the chief Justice. He had to read these papers. So there was some. In it that maybe gave him pause to put this citation on pause. So who knows how the full supreme court will act when they all get together. Five justices need to agree. What happens next, it's likely? We won't see anything until after New Year's so that'll be on Wednesday, but any minute now the full supreme court could come down with something. All right. Just thank you so much for that report. Coming up Elizabeth Warren announces she's exploring a presidential run. But at the same time, she says, she's in the fight all the way. So which is it. This is a situation room special report. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends at Xeni optical offer, a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five. You can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Zanny dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame styles and materials there isn't a better way to change it up for every season. Plus is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. That's Z E N N, I dot com slash CNN. Nineteen is about to begin with the same stalemate that twenty eighteen is closing with leaving part of the federal government shutdown. I want to dig deeper now with our correspondents and analysts and Phil Mattingly to you first. So we're in day ten of government shutdown. There doesn't seem to be a hurry on either side to get this finished. Right. There's no end in sight House Democrats have votes for Thursday, but they're not going to go anywhere. Ultimately because we don't expect the Republican Senate to take up their bills. So what's the end game? So preface for the fact that there are staffers in both sides on both chambers that could figure a way out of this very quickly. They've got a lot of experience with this. They know how to thread the needle. They just aren't necessarily being allowed to do that right now. The better kind of way of looking at this is historically through shutdowns, and you've covered them. I've covered them paths. Pamelas covered them is the party that feels the most pain the party that gets bludgeoned the party that realizes there's no way out is often the party that gives in and that's the way that these in. And so the question becomes who ends up feeling the most? Pain and win. Do they give in? I think the thing the wildcard here that I picked up from a lot of staff who's been through this a lot is they don't know if the if the president's the one who's gonna feel all the pain here will he ever feel it right? He's the wildcard because the president wants this fight. He believes that fight is extremely important for his base. He's pledged that this fight was coming for a long period of time. And so even Republican lawmakers on Capitol Hill who weren't too keen on this right now, if the president feels like this is a fight that he can continue to win for his base for the people that he cares about then maybe he never gives in. And if he never gives in I think, there's a real open question now is how this actually ends and the whole point of this the issue here is the fight over his border wall over President Trump's border wall, but his outgoing chief of staff John Kelly is you're familiar. Pam told the LA times to be honest. It's not a wall. The president still says wall, oftentimes, frankly hill say barrier or fencing now he's tended towards steel slats. But we left a solid concrete wall early on in the administration when we asked people what they needed and where they needed it in other. President fired back on Twitter. Because even if it's not exactly the wall. He wants to use that word, right? He said an all concrete wall was never abandoned as has been reported by the media, even though they're just reporting. What countless first and foremost, right? We should note that John Kelly said this on the record to the media. And it's not the first time there has been this public disconnect between John Kelly and the president you'll recall last year when John Kelly went on believe, Fox News and said, the president's views were evolving on immigration and the president shot back at that. And was was upset the president is sensitive about anything having to do with the wall at any perception that it could be off the table because he knows it's a buzzword for his base, he needs he needs the base to believe that he is behind building this wall, and the term seems to evolve each week. I mean, you know, still slats seems to be the latest term Kellyanne Conway was on state of the union yesterday, though, saying border security, not just the wall. I mean, the messaging from the White House is muddled when it comes to this issue. And none of this answers. The question of what the president is willing to sign when it comes to funding for the wall border security Sam Vinograd joy Jackson. I want to ask you about Paul Manafort because there's this report out in time magazine that he while he was campaign chairman for the Trump campaign was potentially vulnerable to external pressure. He was being pressured by a former Russian associates of a middleman between him and an oligarch payback millions and millions of dollars. So joy to you first. What does it mean for the Russian vestige as a whole that, you know, brianna it's so significant than here's why, you know, people talk about oh wise collusion relevant. Why we looking at Russia? There's a thing in law called the conflict of interest. Right. And the reality is that is this. Why does it matter? Whether Trump was talking about a tower in January versus whether he was the presumptive nominee. It's reported. What you just spoke of which is the issue of Manafort, maybe other things or unreported as it relates to people who may be potentially compromised and the at the end of the day. Do you want your policy? There's multiple ways to attack our democracy. We saw it in the elections, and in the hacking and everything else in in terms of turning the elections upside down, but there's another way, and that's the get to the policy makers those people who are in office who are ultimately hold office. Are you affecting their decision? Making is the decision making predicated purely on America's interest, or is it predicated upon they only something they're beholden to me. And as a result of being beholden to someone. It influences what you do and clearly our policy interest in Russia's policy interests are divergent. Right. And so what matters, of course, to the Russian vested Gatien, it matters as it relates Muller's report. It matters as relates as it relates to whether it's only Manafort or with someone else compromise. But it's a big deal. What do you think? Well, I think that Paul Manafort was the best thing that might have happened to the Russian intelligence services what bribery points. Did he not have at this juncture he apparently needed money he needed support in? The ways in every kind of manipulation point that foreign spies typically look for so that they can manipulate us. It's Paul Manafort represented he made their jobs pretty easy for them. And the outstanding question really is how nobody on the Trump campaign either knew or cared that Paul Manafort was so vulnerable to manipulation he was an open book in terms of allowing himself to be malleable for counterintelligence purposes. All right guys stand by me, we have a lot more to discuss. And we'll be back in just a moment. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts is take his taking the first step toward a likely White House run in twenty twenty by forming an exploratory committee, so it is a big day. All of you for Elizabeth Warren is we've all been watching. Let's take a look at how the president is responding. Elizabeth warren. We'll be the first she did very badly in proving that she who is of Indian heritage that didn't work out too. Well, I think you have more than she does. And maybe I do too and I have nothing. So you know, we'll see how she does. I wish you well. I hope she does. Well, I'd love to run against her. She says she's in the fight all the way, Mr President. Did you do you really think she believes she can win? Well that I don't know you'd have to ask her psychiatrist. I want to see what you all have to say about this starting with you Joey Jackson. What's your reaction? My reaction is is that the president never ceases insults his attacks. Most unfortunate it's time to raise the tenor right in this country, and may two thousand nineteen be that way. Elizabeth Warren, certainly is a viable force. She has a voice in the party. There are other people who are in the party as well. We have what has been called an embarrassment of riches and so- best of luck to her. But I don't think she should continue to be demeaned by this president who continually demeans her name calls her and everyone else, it's just most unfortunate seeing I wonder as someone who observes international relations when you see President Trump questioning really her authenticity. Whether she has native American heritage even still as she has proven that she does with the DNA tests. It seems like this is it's a trick. We've seen before in some foreign elections questioning the authenticity questioning of people say who if they are who they say, they are what do you think? I don't think President Trump is really in a position to be questioning anybody pretending to be something that they're not or the qualifications for office at this point, the macro point here is that he'll go low and all the rest of us hopefully will continue to go. Hi, Senator Warren, and whomever else says our hat in the ring will hopefully run as part of an election that we'd hope to see in another country where candidate's debate each other on their policy views rather than attacking them in bullying them from the podium and from the campaign trail itself, but his using fill a racial slur. When he calls her Pocahontas. You know, he's using that pejoratively is something that took hold. I mean, she had to address this. So it's something that's that's working. He may be going low on this. But she has to respond. She's had to respond to it. I think one of this was the most predictable thing predictable response from the. You remember reporting on meetings private meetings with Senate Democrats in the White House where he would bring this up totally out of the blue when she wasn't even in the meeting, and I remember talking to democratic senators scratching their heads. Like, why is this coming up? Why is this an issue? They knew this was going to happen. I think what I'm most interested to SAM's point is what's the response going to be? They knew this was coming house Senator Warren planning to respond and Howard Democrats gonna respond in general. There's always the debate of do you get in the fight with him. Do you have a full balloon fight of Marco Rubio esque fight, if you wanna harking back to two thousand sixteen or do you try to ignore it? What's the most effective way? We're going to see it with a lot of candidates. Elizabeth Warren's I out of the gate, and we'll see how she returns has. You see this reaction from President Trump? Well, you know, it's interesting. We are getting a little bit of a preview. No surprise of some of the info that are gonna come from Trump to the contenders in twenty twenty. But what's interesting here is Elizabeth Warren is going to need to figure out to your point brianna about how to respond to the president because her her response to the Pocahontas comments didn't really go over well when she released. DNA test results that wasn't really viewed as a win. And you know, someone argue that it was imaging to her. And so it will be interesting to see how she and other potential contenders handle this because as you point out Marco Rubio tried to get down with mud with him as well. And it didn't work out. So well for him either. I wonder in this. There are a number of times where President Trump than candidate Trump has done something, and you look at it, and you say that's not going over. Well, but it did go over well with a certain slice of a very important part of the electorate for him. Could it be the same with Elizabeth Warren that even if, you know her response on the DNA wasn't that great overall, it seemed, but she may be speaking to what's your sense of if she's really speaking to part of the democratic base. I don't think we don't there's very clearly parts of the democratic base at wanna bare knuckle brawl the there's no question about that. But I think the beauty of what's going to happen. And then of course, the next couple of months and years, so as we're we're actually going to see and there's going to be a number of candidates. We're going to try to number of different strategies, and I see you smiling. But. You and I both know very well making predictions at this point in time. Bye. Bye. There's just a lot of time left. And so I think a lot of people are going to be trying out a lot of different things. One of them's going to work at least to get through the primary that'll tell you what the best responses for Democrats. And then you'll have to see if it's the best response overall. I'll just wish we recycle. We just want to know we have sometimes thank you all of you. I appreciate it. Be New Year's tight security and a sodden forecast. We're going to go live time swear to check on New Year's Eve preparations there. Remember, the black Dahlia murder January twenty eighth. Don't miss TNT's new limited series. I am the night. She had case and fifteen years old, storing Chris pine and girl does all about it. Inspired by a true story of one girl at the heart of Hollywood's most notorious murder, I'll blow this thing. Why open this girl? She's the key. The new limited series. I am the night. January twenty eighth at night on TNT. The new year is now just over six hours away here on the east coast. New York City is gearing up for its big celebration. Let's bring in C N N national correspondent Miguel Marquez and Miguel. You're there with a bunch of committed people. And I know a thorn are doing everything they can to make sure they stay safe. What are you seeing? Yeah. This is exactly the situation. So there are tens of thousands of people. That's the main event down that way. This is the reason police are here to protect all the people who are here. It is a massive massive effort. You could see on every corner here. The number of police officers literally this is seventh avenue where it comes together with Broadway and all the way up seventh even tens of thousands of more. They're they're expecting as many as two million into this area. All of the rain may keep some of them away. The rate has already quashed one plan of police, which is to have drones up for the first time this year. But because of the weather conditions are not able to do it. If others do fly drones, though, they they do have anti-drug technology that they should be able to use. But they have police agencies over fifty police agencies represented here. Hundreds and hundreds of police officers and agents, even police officers embedded in area hotels to prevent anything from happening from any of those places. So. Just a massive effort for what should be a wet. But great 2019 Brenna. All right Miguel. We'll be watching. Thank you for that report. And all those people there infra soggy night. Unfortunately, as you heard Miguel saying, let's bring in C N N meteorologist, Jennifer gray with the forecast. It's been a rainy wait we can see that behind him for the crowd there in Times Square. What's what's ahead for them L? Yeah. The bearer of bad news here. We are going to see that rank continue, and it will probably still be raining when the clock strikes midnight. So they are in for the long haul. We could get a break here or there. But I'm really not counting on it. I think it's going to be steady rain throughout the rest of the evening. And that rain extends all the way back to the Ohio river valley down to the Gulf Coast. So even places like New Orleans has had rain. But I think it's going to clear out for them. Unlike places like New York where it's going to stick around DC and Philadelphia we'll get a couple of breaks. It's actually moving into the Boston area. So they're night will end with rain as well here. Let's go forward in time. And you can see the range of stick. Looking around. It's really not fast to go anywhere at all. It's going to stay in DC, Philly New York by the time the clock strikes midnight. And so here's the official New Year's forecast for New York City at midnight. Forty eight degrees. It will feel like forty five and we will have steady rain. So it looks like it's going to be a long night for the folks in Times Square. Let's think of it as a metaphorical cleansing, Jennifer. Yes, you're saying happy new coming up there with the government shutdown in its tenth day. President Trump is home alone in the White House. This New Year's Eve he's been firing off tweets as he battles Democrats. He's borderline. All right children. What do you want for Christmas this? Yeah. I want something when I've got just the thing for you. It's a game of sound special episode coming out Christmas day only on Bleacher report.
The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer
Aired 2 weeks ago 83:36
Rep. Khanna: Trump allegedly directed conspiracy from Oval Office
Yeah. There's no collusion. So now, they go and morphine to let's inspect every deal. He's ever done. We're going to go into his finances. We are going to check his deals. We get a check. These people are sick. Good morning. The AM joy after yet another really bad week in his unprecedented presidency. Donald Trump returned his comfort zone on Saturday giving a rambling campaign style speech at the conservative political action conference and Republican pep rally. The clocked in at more than two hours, the longest speech of his tenure so far Trump berated practically every one of his favorite targets the media who he continued to label fake news. His former attorney general Torney general Jefferson sessions who he mocked in eight fakes other next no less and other targets for whom he rolled out a little bit of profanity. We had the greatest of all time. Now, we have people that lost. And unfortunately, you put the wrong people in a couple of positions, and they leave people for a long time that shouldn't be there. And all of a sudden they're trying to take you out with bullshit. Okay. But Trump stopped short of mentioning by name the man who's caused him. The most trouble this week, former personal attorney fix Michael Cohen that maybe because Coen's bombshell testimony on Wednesday has triggered even more house inquiries to come which could potentially reach the man who knows what's in the books. Trump organization chief financial officer Allan Weisselberg as well. As Trump's longtime executive assistant Rhona Graff, and maybe even Trump's adult children joining me now democratic congressman and member of the oversight committee row Khanna of California. Congressman thank you very much for being here. One of our guests. That's going to be coming on after you in the panel said that in his view, and this is Tim O'Brien. Who knows what he's talking about? You ask the best question. Single question of the of the entire spectacle of the Cohen inquiry. I'm going to play that for you. Now. Are you telling us mister Cohen that the president directed transportations in conspiracy with Alan Weisselberg and his son Donald Trump junior as part of a civil criminal as part of a criminal conspiracy, a financial fraud is that your testimony today. Yes, simply answered as many of those answers worse. So congressman at this point having heard all of that testimony from Michael Cohen. And we know he's also done some closed door testimony. Do you now believe that the president directed and participated in a criminal conspiracy? I do joy, thanks for having me back on. And it's important for people to understand the president did this as president. This is not going after the president's financial records before he assumed the office. This is the president sitting in the Oval Office writing checks personally to Michael Cohen and directing a conspiracy when Alan Weisselberg and his son Donald Trump junior to cook the books and reimbursed Michael Cohen, and it goes on for a year while he is president. It's deeply concerning and the southern district of New York's investigation is perhaps where the president is in the greatest legal jeopardy. So congressman did this whole saga with Donald Trump started out really even during the primary. I mean during the presidential campaign in a quest to find out if he was in collusion or conspiracy with Russia is where this Muller thing, we call Muller gate where it's going veering off of that. And onto the many many decades of Donald Trump's financial dealings. Well, I think they're two separate issues. I think Muller is looking at the potential collusion and the Trump campaign's coordination with Russia and Russian interference. And that's a very very serious matter. It looks like Bob Muller is wrapping up, and we need to look what's in that report wholly apart from that there are issues of financial fraud that this president committed as president to cover up some of the hush payments. Michael Cohen made to stormy Daniels and others, and they're the president apparently directed not only has sun, but Allen Weisselberg to make basically commit financial fraud to cook the books at the Trump organization and directed in elaborate payouts game. Michael cohen. And we know that the southern district of New York is investigating that Michael Colin didn't want to confirm that in the testimony. But it's pretty apparent if you look at the whole testimony that this is under investigation at the southern district of New York. Of course, given that you are in congress the questions at hand are primarily political from where you sit would the congress in your view impeach this president based on past financial fraud and wrongdoing if the Muller probe does not find outright evidence of collusion with Russia. Well, I I think it's premature to say that. I mean, that's a decision that's going to be made by Jerry Nadler at the judiciary committee, and of course, Nancy Pelosi. But I do think that we need to look at what comes out of the southern district of New York and the evidence of the crimes, and we need to call in some of the other witnesses like Rhona Graff who was the president's personal assistant like Donald Trump junior who signed these checks like Alan Weisselberg. So that they can corroborate what the documents show. And so that the American people really get a full picture. I think that's the next logical step. All right. Well, we will definitely be watching carpet. O'connor? Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. Thanks for having me back. And joining me now is attorney mid win. Charles MSNBC contributor, the aforementioned Tim, the Brian author of Trump nation and MSNBC legal analyst Paul Butler. Thank you all for being here. I'm gonna go to you, Tim because you everyone I think remembers at this point where they were when they first heard the name, Alan Weisselberg. I are my colleague Lawrence O'Donnell mentioned that he I heard it from. Donny deutsch. I I heard from you. And so I wonder if you think that what you just heard from Rokon con is that they have now a litany of people that they want to hear from in their next step out in Weisselberg, potentially. Donald Trump junior vodka Trump Ron Lieberman, who's executive EP the Trump organization. Matthew calamari also mentioned by Michael Cohen, who's the chief operating officer of his organization and Ronan grab the secretary. Can we talk about Allen Weisberg? Just a minute is he the Lynch pin to the the rest of what we could learn about Donald Trump to defend Lawrence for a moment because it actually gets to what we know about why slow Berg he said that Donnie for solo Michael Kohn, he mentioned that. I I hold him on Weisselberg 'cause was on the show the night that the Michael Kohn tapes came out in which had taped the president and he mentioned on his tape. Let's clear this with Allen. And everyone wondered that evening will who the heck is Allen. And I said, I was pretty sure Ellen Weisselberg. Right. Because they only whites will work has been an accountant and a CFO the Trump organization since the nineteen seventies. He joined the firm working for. Fred Trump at the same time. Donald did he does President Trump's tax returns, he files he signs most of the checks significant deals, but more important than the paperwork is he looks at all of significant transactions that the Trump organization engages in and gives them his blessing. So he has he's sitting next to Trump side for four decades signing off on everything they did. And this is an organization that routinely pushed the limits of the law, and the limits of financial propriety in order to get things done. So the president could get under bag of cash on his desk and Midwood Charles the question, then becomes and this is the question that I had for commerce ro Khanna is that we've all been talking about Russia gate, what we call Russia gate, you know, what three years now. Right. But if in fact, what this opens up is an extensive forensic examination of Donald Trump's business dealings his tax returns. Whether he's done tax evasion. Whether he's committed financial crimes does that become the avenue where this goes. And does that become the primary? The interest of the prosecutors. I think it does. And what we have right now are basically two tracks. We have the mother investigation, and we have these purported alleged crimes and to add to your list insurance fraud, right, which is right. Michael Cohen testified to but I think that that is a level of inquiry, particularly how salacious and how bold these alleged crimes are particularly since they also go into the time in which Donald Trump was in office. Remember, some of these things that Michael Cohen testified to occurred while Donald Trump was sitting in that oval signed while he's president and also from the trust which he was supposed to be divested from that trust was set up. So that he could be at an arm's length in front of this company insulated, and he's writing checks from that from that company. Yeah. While he's still president of the United States in other person. I'm gonna bring you in Paul Butler that was mentioned of more than once by Michael Cohen in that hearing was of course, Donald Trump junior here. He is talking about the infamous Trump Tower meeting, Michael Cohen and Donald JR. Knowledge of it. Our discussions of it. I recall, Don, jR, leave leaning over to his father and speaking in a low voice, which I could clearly here and saying the meeting is all set, and I remember Mr. Trump saying, okay, good. Let me know. So I concluded that Don, jR, was referring to that June twenty sixteen Trump Tower meeting about dirt on Hillary with the Russian representatives when he walked behind his dad's desk that day how about if Donald Trump junior informed, his father about the outcome of the Trump Tower meeting. Donald Trump has claimed not to know anything about that meeting. Then what who who's in jeopardy? There is at the sun. Or is it the dad or how about both joy because both reportedly said something different under oath. So Donald Trump senior when he responded to mothers questions and writing reportedly deny that he knew about the meeting with the Russian lawyer. You're in advance. He's also said that on TV Donald Trump junior allied about that, according to at least two of the congress people who heard him testify under oath to the house intelligence committee. And so Michael Cohen implicated, Donald Trump junior and a conspiracy to violate federal campaign laws and Bank laws with that hush money payment. Abud also involved again in the collusion Muller investigation with these lies under oath to congress. And so, you know, he has not Donald Trump junior has not been subpoenaed by the mother grand jury that probably means that he's a target of the grand jury. The Justice department has a policy of not subpoenaing targets. And so again, I think the last big act of the Muller investigation will be the indictment of Donald Trump junior. Well, let's keep it in the family here to go to Ivanka Trump because Trump is the other person who's very intricately. Volved in Donald Trump's business dealings still is. And also is a White House adviser is her husband, Jared Kushner here she is talking to Abby Huntsman about whether or not she knew anything about the now infamous Moscow tower project. The Moscow project in Russia the Moscow beradino Trump Tower. I've learned a lot more about it. Watching the news, but you did have a role on this. What was it? Literally almost nothing is that possibly true, Tim O'Brien. Can that be no that's not possibly true, Donald junior and vodka got a tour of Moscow from Felix Seder prior to that deal being considered when they were in Moscow looking for sites that they could develop remind people who feel like Seder for the sater's longtime business associate of the president. He has organized crime ties, he's a career criminal. He was an informant right? And he's an informant for the federal government on mob activities in the eastern district of New York. He's a classic thug. And he he had an office to floors beneath President Trump's with a company called bayrock. He went up regularly during the week to talk to Trump about deals, and the people at the Trump organization that he spent the most time talking to actually were Ivanka and Don jR, according to other people at bayrock my interview Jodi, Chris who was a principal there. So the idea that Vonk is somehow out of the loop on all this is silly. She was on Air Force One the night that the. Trump team was trying to figure out how to respond to the New York Times report about the June twenty sixteen meeting in which Russians came to Trump Tower to talk about having dirt on Hillary Clinton. Should the her story for that is that she took an Ambien or a sleeping aid and went to bed that's gonna have to get probed. Yeah. Vonk was the hub of a lot of the business requests around the inauguration. And there was I think one hundred twenty million dollars or so that flowed into the inauguration committee, and she was a conduit for deciding where that money went that's become a subject of interest for investigators. So she's not she's not outside of any of. So what are what are the risks because it's unprecedented. The potentially indicting the president's children because they to Paul point. They haven't been called either are not have been interviewed. They haven't been interviewed. But I think Tim makes an excellent point when he talks about how involved the children are in this company. And we heard Michael Cohen testified to the fact that everybody in that company sort of knows that they have to lie in order to protect Trump. Right. He said, it'd be. Became the norm. Is it dangerous? I don't know. I think this is unprecedented. We are in uncharted waters to the point where we have a president who's both sun the daughter as well as his son-in-law, right? Then we haven't even discussed Jared Kushner in the news that came out this week about security clearances, but it is uncharted waters. And I have no idea where we're gonna go from here. Maybe Eric is it smart one Eric is the Hollywood is used to be staying out of no comment on that common to Tim. How far would Donald Trump go to protect his children and his son-in-law? If at all, I think he would go to great lengths to protect his children. Do not suspect you'd go very far to protect us on a lot. I think he would throw Jared Kushner under the bus if they do that I give his Jared Kushner to avant his favorite child. Well, I think we're going to have to make decisions at some point. Whether she prefers her husband or her father that could be a dramatic moment in all of this could. George to the point though this. You know, the smartest words Representative Khanna said in those questions were and state crimes because the only ways that the president could can protect us kids is by pardons. We'll just what he cannot pardon them for state crimes, and so Robert Muller and the southern district or both preserving that option there working with state prosecutors in order to prevent Trump from exercising that pardon power. If going to be the subject of another block, but I just got to at least get your take on this midwinter Charles in your view can a president. I'd say Spain died while ninety one office. Yes, I do. I do. I know a lot of people have talked about the FBI policy paper, it's a policy it's policy. The supreme court has not ruled on it. There is no statute that that says it can't be done and the constitution is silent on it. So I do believe that don't that. When Charles thank you very much to him. Look, welcome to the show and him and Paul will join us later on and coming up now. Trump comes up empty handed from his meeting with Kim Jong UN, so what Nobel Nobel peace prize? Here in LA, the diplomatic courtship between President Trump and Kim Jong UN hit the rocks in dramatic fashion. When the president walked away from talks about North Korea's nuclear program departing Hanoi earlier than planned the US tonight appearing at least for now to accept the status quo North Korea as a nuclear power, Donald Trump went to Vietnam thinking he'd walk away with the deal to denuclearize North Korea. And an express ticket to a Nobel peace prize. He left his second summit with the North Korean dictator Kim Jong UN with neither that didn't stop Trump from heaping praise on Kim going as so far as to say he believed the autocrats claims that he knew nothing about the treatment of auto warm beer, the American college student who was held for seventeen months in a North Korean prison, and who died days after being released and returned to the United States during his rambling campaign style speech in front of his fandom at CPAC. Trump gave this explanation of events. We have no testing no missiles going up. No rockets going up no nuclear testing. We got a great people back. We get a great great people. And that includes our beautiful beautiful auto auto warmbier whose parents I've gotten to know who's incredible. And I'm in such a horrible position. Because in one way, I have to negotiate in the other way, I love Mr. and MRs warmbier, and I love auto, and it's a very very delicate balance. Joining me now is Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson. The former chief of staff to secretary of State, Colin Powell and Christine on co founder of the Korea policy institute and Christina. I'm gonna go to I Donald Trump left out of that expression of love that series of expressions of love for the warmbier family that he's also said he's fallen in love with Kim Jong UN. I'm wondering what in your view has Donald Trump actually achieved by giving Kim Jong UN to face to face meetings and all of this excessive flattery. Well, joy to be honest with you. He I think he was right that we haven't seen in esscalation of dangerous tensions between the two countries in that era fire in fury. But I think the point about what was an achiever at the summit in Hanoi. Was that eighty million Koreans on the peninsula? And around the world, we're waiting for a possible declaration of ending the Korean war. It's been sixty seven years when the US and North Korean commanders promised to sit down, and it goes to a political settlement and a decisive into the Korean war. And and that's what so many of us were expecting what we understand is that it broke down over stations and contrary to what the president said that North Korea was demanding a full lifting. We understand now that they were only requesting a partial lifting of sanctions the sanctions that were put in place after two thousand sixteen which have been hitting ordinary people the civilians. In North Korea. And you know, if we look at actually what those sanctions are they are targeting industries, such as fisheries and textiles, and and who works in those industries is that Kim Jong UN or is it actually the textile sector, for example, where the majority of women are employed there. And so I think the point for me is that you know, this is not about Trump. This is about the Korean people who have been living in a state of war for seventy years, and you know, as I wrote in an op Ed with Lauria Steinem in the post this past week when we crossed the DMZ in two thousand fifteen we would have never magin what we are witnessing today where the two Koreas have signed to a declarations to end the Korean war. They have d mind portions of the DMZ north and South Korean soldiers have shaken hands, and, you know, remove guard posts, this is a historic peace. That's taking place and unfortunately, Washington and Trump. Must come to some kind of peaceful settlement with North Korea. And, you know, Colonel Wilkerson you worked for secretary of State, Colin Powell, and you know, I'm not a diplomat. But you sort of this billion understanding of the way that these things normally work is that you don't put the entire deal on the table upfront. Right. The regime of Kim Jong Lewin and his father both wanted recognition. They wanted the prestige of being able to meet with American president. They've now gotten that twice. Donald Trump declared in advance that he'd already achieved denuclearization that had already been done that turned out not to be true. Then he said, he didn't believe our intelligence officials. They said it wasn't true. You know, the idea that then adding to that going ahead and preemptively lifting lifting sanctions on North Korea. Would that not just essentially hand everything to Kim Jong UN in exchange for a century nothing? Well, joy, I don't disagree with Christine just said, it's large message. I think the diplomatic aspect of this though was fractured by the fact that you really didn't have you. MD amongst Trump's team particularly Bolton and drop. But let's look at what palm peyot has got to look at this from a State Department point of view. I read the State Department's condensation of Pompeo's telephone calls with Yang Ichi and Beijing with the counterpart in Tokyo and the counterpart, and so and here's what we're saying. We're saying to Seoul, don't worry. We know. We've put moon giants entire presidency at stake here and his diplomacy at stake and peace at stake. But don't worry. And then to Beijing. It's okay. It's okay. Don't worry about it. We're coming back. We're gonna talk again, and the Chinese are probably feeling. Okay. This is all right because he will take failures in a row. So now, the trade talks are probably looking better for us. And in Japan, the sycophancy of hobby if you will the phoning on Trump to try and keep him from doing something in the negotiations that would be detrimental for Japan, apparently has succeeded. No deal is better than a bad deal. Avi was afraid that he would agree to allowing the small weapons to remain that is to say those that would hit Tokyo rather than California. So I'm looking at it from a regional diplomatic perspective. And I'm like, my French colleagues. The fat Vos Jeux, they say it's time to place your bets, and my bets are not on Donald Trump and this diplomatic team to that Christine on it feels like in the region, you have to the point that you made earlier and eagerness to somehow either come to a deal that would be good for the region. Not for Donald Trump, not to give away everything you've already also have the United States in the in the form of the Donald Trump administration say that we're going to withdraw the military exercises that in our understanding show of support for South Korea and say, we are going to defend you. We know that we're here for you and say, no, we're going to take that away. And then talking about what a great economic miracle North Korea could be if they just give Donald Trump what they want. And then on top of that asking the Japanese Prime minister to preemptively write a letter nominating. Donald Trump for the Nobel peace prize. It just feels like all of these negotiations are cart way before the horse. Well, I think the interesting point is that the decision to call off the full legal military exercises. I think does reflect the desire of South Korea. We know that in September when Kim Jong UN and moon Jae-in met in Pyongyang that in fact, in addition to the Pyongyang declaration. There was military agreement that was signed between the north and South Korean militaries where they are basically set in motion. This incredible peace process that you know, declared Parche part the DMZ apiece own the west sea of the PC. And so I think that the fact that the US has halted these military exercises is a reflection of the reality on the ground on the Korean peninsula. And so I mean back to the point about, you know, this is not a political game. This is a game of people's lives. And it's not just the millions of Koreans on the peninsula who have been living in a state of. For for three generations. But you know, the sixty thousand North Korean children that could starve as a result of these sanctions. And I think we have a historic opportunity here in the United States. And I was I was glad to hear row Khanna on the segment before because he has been one of the courageous members of congress that have said we have to end the Korean war. We have to negotiate a peace agreement with North Korea, and whether or not Donald Trump does it it's the will of the American people because most Americans don't realize this. But it was the Korean war that inaugurated, the military industrial complex. It's what set forth the US is the world's military police at what drubel defense spending. And so if we want to achieve the things that we want we have to end this cream war, and it's it's an easy low hanging fruit, and I think Americans want it very quickly before we end Colonel Wilkerson. The Americans tend to talk about career in terms of our security in terms of whether they're missiles can reach us. And that's the way the Americans tend to frame it. But the. Reality is pristine Pristina's made the point that she's made. I think very effectively is that this isn't really about us primarily it's about the Korean peninsula about the people there the separated families at cetera. If this were a normal administrations or typical normal even Republican administration. What would what would be the thing they would be doing to try to end once and for all the Korean war? The first thing they got to do joy is eliminate this poisonous sociology chemistry. Call it what you will. And my students talk about it and their seminars, we did the DPRK and the Hanoi summit this past Monday and their conclusion was that between Bolton Pompeii. Oh and Trump, and perhaps some others. There is a bad chemistry going here. What we've got is Bolton wanting everything everything you can possibly get. He wants to North Korea prostrate at the feet of the United States. You got Donald Trump trying to do a deal over flawed that deal may be. So you've got bad chemistry in this diplomatic team. And they were not read. Ready for this meeting that I think that everyone agrees on that. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson and Christine on. Thank you both. Really? Appreciate the discussion. Thank you. Thank you coming up. Thank you coming up. What does it take to indicted sitting president down? Stay with us. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu came closer this week to being the first sitting leader of that country to face criminal prosecution. Israel's attorney general says that he plans to indictment in yahu on charges of bribery fraud and breach of trust. The allegations include a plot to trade favors for good press. Some of in involving children Adelson, the American billionaire mutual friend of BB and Donald Trump Netanyahu denies wrongdoing and calls the prosecution a witch hunt. If some of that sounds vaguely familiar, you might be wondering if a certain American president might be consulted his lawyers about whether he could wind up in the same boat too. Am joy favorites? Paul Butler and seem IRA will. Join me to debate next. What they're doing. I'm confident is building a case for two things one to go. After those around the president who may have committed crimes and to to build a case if they have one I don't think they have one at the moment. But if they if they were trying to try to build one, I'm against the president for when he leaves office, former New Jersey Governor and one time federal prosecutor, Chris Christie says that it's the southern district of New York and not Robert Muller who poses poses the biggest legal Trump Paul Butler's back with me. And joining me now court TV anchor seem IRA fight. Here we go. Okay. Now, you have to get along. I'm just kidding. We want you guys to get along. Alright, that's our whole point. So let's go and each other. I know you guys do we like having you guys together? Honestly. So let's talk about this. Because Chris Christie says that the SDN why is where the money is where the rubber is going to meet the row, Paul Butler. I I feel that you agree with that do. So again, the southern district is the. Prosecuted that's looking at Trump's financial affairs. That was always the line that you don't cross for Donald Trump. And so I'll myself work I do want to lower expectations about his testimony in congress. So he knows more about Donald Trump's financial affairs, then Donald Trump, which means he's got the same kind of criminal exposure that Donald Trump has. So he's team Trump. He's not cool operating. He's part of that don't be a snitch movement with Roger stone. He's not telling on Trump. He does have immunity from the southern district a limited immunity about those hush money payments. But other than that he's going down with Trump what he's going to take the fifth just to be clear. He's gonna take the fifth almost certainly when he's asked to testify before congress. Okay. So let's say he takes it seem higher does SDN y need that Michael Cohen came with receipts. When he came and testified before the oversight committee. He had these two checks one of which. The one at the top of the giant magic marker signature was signed in the Oval Office. And this was reimbursements for the hundred and thirty thousand dollars hush money payment. Stormy Daniels signed by Donald Trump the other signed by Don jR, and the I four mentioned Alan Weisselberg can the southern district of New York just indict Donald Trump on the campaign finance violations. Putting aside everything else that we that? We know they're investigating the only problem with that is that the southern district has to prove that Donald Trump new those payments were illegal because. Yes, it does fall under campaign finance laws, and he does write those checks. But did he know they were illegal? They still have to prove that part of it. Let's go on phone. Call already proved it again, they have prosecuted. Michael Cohen, he- mitts. Donald Trump junior is Mike Cowen testimony is not enough to prove that Donald Trump new making those payments was illegal making payments alone for me payments, alone of on how to win knowledge but hold on a second. If all new he signed the checks the tax reimbursement would reimburse Michael Cohen for paying off stormy Daniels. How could he signed checks, and he didn't know what they were forced Sima because they have to make that connection between writing the tracks to silence stormy Daniels and the actual campaign. Finance portion is they're taking isn't today. But wait there's a tape that Michael remember, Michael also taped on Trump. And isn't there a tape where they actually literally talk about making these reimbursement payments? If. About the purpose of them. They pretend like they're retainer payments to and again, that's fraud. And so again, he's got the Pru district climb. They called Donald Trump individual one, Donald Trump junior executive to again, the reason that Donald Trump singer is not indicted is because he's the president of the United States. And that's his defense listening Paul Butler. I know you're all up in arms about executive number two budge right after Michael Cohen testified. There were reports I believe in the Washington Post where someone is saying that executive to is actually a person known as Jeff McConnell and not Donald Trump junior. I agree. If Donald Trump junior is identified without question to be executive number two, then we are closer to Donald Trump junior being indicted. All right. But that is not certain yet. Let's let's go. Let's go to I wanna go to really quickly, Maxine Waters, congresswoman, Maxine. Waters who's the chairwoman of the financial services committee? And this was a congresswoman waters on on on the all in program on Friday. Take us. As you know, we started sending letters to Deutsche Bank last year. But now that I'm Charing that committee and the Democrats are in charge of the house. They have said they will cooperate Deutsche Bank is the Bank that he has been dealing with and his family have been dealing with your Bank. They all I think have loans bake loans from chubby we're gonna find out a lot about. Gotcha Bank and his his and that banks relationship to the president. We are very concerned about money laundering, money laundering, and tax evasion. As the potential next round in what started off being Russia gate. We all know Paul Butler that Al Capone was not taken. He didn't go to prison for the various mob. Crimes. He was convicted on twenty three counts of income tax evasion. Sometimes prosecutors get people the way they get them is Donald Trump at risk. Probably more risk. I guess for potential money laundering monitoring tax evasion. Financial crimes he is. At this. Point on Russian collusion. Something really weird. What's going on? With Dutch Bank sell. No one would give the Trump organization alone. Again. Donald Trump is not a good business person. He repeatedly filed for bankruptcy. That's why he had to lie. According to Michael Cohen about the actual value of his properties, by the way, that's insurance and Bank fraud, but DOJ Bank Dutch Bank. They're giving him these loans, and then Trump is doing all these cash deals nobody at this level does cast deals again. That's certainly raises a prosecutor suspicion about money laundering. And so I I r- insurance fraud Bank fraud, money laundering, exhibition is Donald Trump at risk of being prosecuted for those things even while he is a sitting president a Heinrich and fifty percent. Yes. And let me I brought today even more support from my argument that the Justice department regulations that govern Muller's appointment. They say that Muller is allow. Deviate from policy in quote, unquote, extraordinary circumstances, are we extraordinary circumstances. Hello. I think we are here. So the southern district has its own venue to prosecute him for all these insurance fraud crimes, Bank fraud, financial crimes, and this also occurred between two thousand eleven and two thousand thirteen way before he was candidate Trump. So he should not be immune from prosecution on that side. But nor should he be in terms of Mahler and his investigation either. So let me look fo- most the US attorney in the district. We'll follow the deal, Jay guy alone. So it's kind of a. We can't get. The DOJ because this question Paul because it's just the guideline, and I think what Seema is saying. And what a lot of people are asking mid when Charles on the earlier blocks of the agreed with Seema really that we are seeing in Israel completely different legal system, obviously. But the sitting prime minister is about to get indicted for crimes committed ledge allegedly committed right? And that he that indictment could happen while he is a sitting president this sitting president is now in a position that we saw in a sense Bill Clinton, right? The Bill Clinton the quest to get Bill Clinton started with whitewater started with a land deal that occurred way before he was president of the United States, and the congress of the United States investigated at all the way until they then led themselves to the Monica Lewinsky affair in this case. Donald Trump by becoming president has exposed his entire business life the whole past even before he was president right up until he was in the Oval Office. Why would he be immune from prosecution if he committed acts? Actual crimes by Nanteuil, crimes insurance, etc. How does that doesn't that just make him a super citizen who could have committed any crime wanted as long as he remains president? So to real quick DOJ position is based on its analysis of the constitution. It's unitary authority. Basically, the idea is the president is the boss of all the prosecutors. So he essentially would be prosecuting himself. They think that's constitutionally untenable, but prosecution is the key word. So a sitting president can't be prosecuted. He may be able to be indicted, which means there could be a sealed indictment waiting right now for the day that Trump leaves office. I'm gonna give semen the last word. Oh, man. He's saying one more thing you can start even though in one thousand nine hundred seventy three DOJ came out with these guidelines which were affirmed in two thousand Kenneth Starr did not agree with that. And actually the New York Times in two thousand seventeen they published a memo the secret. Memo where lawyers were kind of star said, yes, you can indict. And let's just remember that the sits vice president of the United States, Spiro Agnew was indicted. I'm just saying right debate continues foam there, see, my are we love. This guy's pretty state it and coming up Trump's to see knows where all the bodies are buried in House Democrats wanted to testify and dig them all up stay with us. In the office with me was in Weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the Trump organization, and I was at the time with Alan Weisselberg the bottom signature. I believe is Alan Weisselberg 's Allen Weisselberg, Alan Weisselberg. Alan Weisselberg, that's signed by Alan Weisselberg, always out on Weisselberg on the check their other people that we should be meeting with so Alan Weisselberg among the names that Michael Cohen drafted congressional testimony once stood out, Alan wives, lavar the chief financial officer for the Trump organization. He's been described as a one man outside the Trump family who has all the receipts, including Trump's tax returns. Now, the house intelligence committee wants him to be the next one to testify. Tim O'Brien is back local for MSNBC. All right. So we know that Weisberg signature is on one of the thirty five thousand dollars, which is issued in two thousand seventeen Mark twenty seventeen while Trump is president. We know that he has immunity to testify limited immunity, and we also know he's apparently not cooperating, and I don't think he has much of an interested in cooperating at this point. Because the extent of what he knows is going to open a pin Dora's box of problems about the Trump organization. If you begins testifying about this during a congressional hearing. I think his lawyers gonna probably tell him to be quiet these circumspect. And so you can't remember the name a joint defensive cream, and he and Trump. So that's true. Yeah. So let's talk about another one of the names that was that came up during this hearing, and if somebody that I was not familiar with this guy called Matthew column Mari. There is a book called the loss tycoon in which the quote, here's an interaction supposedly between the two Trump's as you do anything for me. Wouldn't you Mattie? Donald Trump called out from the rear the limousine. Yes, sir. Mr. Trump calamari assured him would you kill for me Maddie Donald pressed, and he said, yes, sir. Who is? Yes. Or Matthew hel- Amari began his service of the Trump organization has Donald Trump's bodyguard Donald was at the US open with Ivana Trump watching a match when he noticed down on the court, a very big guy body, slam another very big guy and the guy doing the body slamming was Matt calamari. And of course, the Trump organization then hires they met. Calamari it's sort of this gorgeous tragicomic element of the people who body slammed my body slam. And have extraordinary names. Yeah, he brings him in. And he essentially rises through the Trump organization to become the chief operating officer. This suggests something else about the Trump organization. It doesn't take a lot of business experience. Become a significant decision maker in the Trump organization because it's a mom and pop organization. Yeah, it's like a licensing, far, basic. It's basically it turns Donald Trump into humans shingle. Yeah. Based what it is and puts his name on stuff. All right. So let's go to the next time because we were talking earlier in the break, and you were saying that you think the most explosive potential next testimony might not even be, you know, there's Rona graphs been floated the secretary there's lots of names that are floated Felix Seder why? Well, Felix sater's get to one of the core problems with Donald Trump's business history and his presidency, which is you have a man who dealt with dirty people for decades organized crime. He went to jail himself for assault. He ended up having a very. Suspect operation the bayrock group two floors beneath the Trump organization in Trump Tower, they jointly built the Trump SoHo hotel together one of the former principals at bayrock Jody Chris in an on the record interview with me. So that he believed bayrock was laundering money out of eastern Europe. I know from my own reporting that some of the money, they came into bayrock came in from Iceland. There's a likelihood that that was money that was being laundered possibly. Yeah. From russia. And I think this is what the US attorney's gonna have to look at are there pipelines of funds that tainted not only Trump's businesses, but is independence that it. Make him someone who could be played by the Kremlin right in order for policy favours, very quickly as possible Felix is informant that he's been telling on Trump the whole time. Well, he's been in an informant for the federal government for a long time. There's a very strong possibility that Felix sater's played both sides. It's a miracle. The Felix sater's still a lot. It's amazing. And it's probably the reason you haven't had another New York real estate guy run for president United States. It's suppose a lot. It's the glass house the presidency. Timothy O'Brien he knows a lot about Trump. What we like having him on drive to the break. If you say something like Russia, please if you can get us Hillary Clinton's emails, please. Much. Steve. Please. And then that fake CNN and others here asked Russia to get the. The. Horrible. Welcome back to AM joy. Well, Donald Trump's one hundred and twenty two minute long speech at the conservative political action conference along this speech of his presidency. Maybe any American presidency was an unscripted punch down collection of Trump fan favorites. A rant against the quote fake news, Robert Muller's Russia investigation. And of course, Hillary Clinton who was a private citizen not running for office. What Donald Trump didn't discuss. In. Those nearly two hours was his former fixer Michael Cohen who spilled all the tea in front of congress calling Trump Aligarh a racist any con, man. Of course, none of that seemed to bother the folks over on earth to who state media outlet, Fox News is still going out of its way to pretend the Michael Cohen testimony never happened while simultaneously joining the Republican party and doing anything in its power to discredit Cohen by saying the star of the hearing that doesn't really exist is also a total liar. You know, I was kinda dragged in a little bit into the Michael Cohen shoe. I interviewed him many times when TV. He was never my attorney. He did apologize to me for his attorney saying that in court, and but I can tell you personally, he said to me at least a dozen times that he made the decision on the payments, and he didn't tell you told me personally he did. And he made the decision and remember this. He's an attorney whatever decision. He makes you supposed to rely on an attorney to make a decision mean. I mean now MSNBC political analysts or Lena. Maxwell Gabriel Sherman Vanity Fair and author media analyst, Eric Boehlert. Gabe. There's a chicken and egg thing with FOX where Donald Trump echoes what they say tweets at what they say. But they also adopt his language they found like him. They talk like him. They say the things he says in addition to Sean Hannity there absolving himself and saying well, that's that inquiry. So journalists give up on that. Here's Tucker Carlson on Wednesday. And the thing that's interesting about it because it has his own inimitable style. But in this clip, he's sounds like Donald. Let's listen. There's no collusion. There's no Russian blackmail. There's no obstruction of Justice there. None of the things that are entire media class has spent the last two years huffing and speculating wildly about if Michael Cohen had the dime. He would drop it. But he doesn't there is nothing there. It was all a lie. Can we go home now? So you didn't see anything those checks didn't exist. It's all I know collusion or Okaloosa no clue this Bill shine who worked at five. Ran Fox News worked with John handy was his EP and now he's over at the White House. Just send the talking points to FOX does FOX in the talking points to him. Well, really, it's just a fluid it's sort of a feedback loop as you just mentioned. I mean, they're in touch with the White House Bill shine is in touch with this former colleagues, but Donald Trump is in touch with the host. I mean, the one of the things I thought about when Bill shine got the job is. Yes, it's helpful. But they don't need him there because Donald Trump picks up the phone, and we'll call the host directly and say I like that. Hey, why don't you say that? So there is just these. Multiple channels going back and forth. And the thing is is part of Donald Trump's Arlene that is deliberately comedic doing stick. He's doing a vaudeville act on the one hand. But on the other hand, there's something about it that is incredibly autocrat, and because in the course of doing his stick. He is creating so for almost cult like feedback loop with the his fans, right? I watched American horror story, that's way, too. I'm sorry. I mean, as you know, I didn't watch the whole entire tours watched clips of it. It's it's a lot to get three hours. And it just it struck me that you know, if you know Castro used to give these this. I'm not saying he's Castro, but they don't cast you just before hours and his rapt audience would just right along. No. I think that both of those things are true. And both of those things are scary. So he is doing schtick. But he's also being an autocrat. And I'm concerned about the fact that we don't have the notes from those meetings with Putin like is he getting some advice about how to deal with the investigation and the media from an actual autocrat. Yeah. Because it's it's very much in line with what you're saying. He's basically saying don't believe what you see don't believe what you hear believe me. And to say that there was no evidence when there were actual checks that were actually did statements. Right. Yeah. I think we're I mean, it's almost amazing that we're all the way on Sunday. And we skipped over the fact that there is visible evidence that the president committed crimes fourteen distinct crimes were outlined by Michael Cohen. So I think that the American people are digesting that and the president's to our speech yesterday was to strapped that's one of those. And I don't know that that's always a strategy. But I think yesterday it was it's almost and it works, right? I mean, the thing is that I think frightens a lot of people is that they can actually say on that news channel. This didn't happen. They even when they give you the numbers vox news in attempting to MSNBC and CNN puts out that MSNBC's spent one hundred and thirty two minutes on Cohen only two minutes on the North Korea summit during its eight pm nine pm and ten pm hours. And then talked about CNN's one hundred forty one minutes on Cohen in less than two minutes on Trump's meeting with Kim Jong UN, it's et cetera et cetera. And Fox News dedicated sixty six minutes to Coen at eighty five minutes to the summit meeting. They spend more time on a summit that was ended early with literally no result. So they're telegraphing to you. We did the important thing which is the follow Donald Trump to Vietnam where he got nothing. Whereas these guys wasted their time on a all day hearing, right? The incredible thing about the Coen thing is this was not about policy this. About criminality? Right. As was explained he laid out all these crimes with evidence. And there was an amazing piece in the Washington Post about quotes from US Senator saying we will not question Donald Trump right about anything at all. Right. And so, and you know, the right wing media provides is incredibly important bubble where criminality is now. Okay. It's accepted. And it's defended. I mean, these are the people who had you know, they were talking about co and he's Aligarh, right? Trump apologists in the house. Having obsessed with lying. You know, Trump is on pace for eight thousand lies four years. Right. These are the people had thirty three Benghazi hearings. These are the people that five years of whitewater hearings and they're concerned about one day of Michael Cohen testify. But the quick point about, you know, the criminality I mean, you know, this is how democracies condi- you have major political party in this country, signaling unequivocally and publicly to the president crimes are fine. That's right. And this is a preview of the release of the Mullery reality is that Cohen. In addition. Everything else. Was there finance their finance here? So he's he's a snuck in hand information. And this is his fixer for ten years. And there's he was there deputy finance chair for the Republican National Committee. There is a sense that on the talk RA skin. We are sliding direction if you have the front page, Robert Costa has a piece out this one in the talks about feel t to Trump is what the Republican party is now over personality cult of personality that if had this been the case during Watergate there would have been no impeachment because Republicans had they done the same crime. As I've reported one of the reasons Roger Ailes created, Fox News was he had explicit conversations about we never want Watergate to happen. Again, we need to create a parallel fact universe where our side can have their own version of history, and this we're seeing this is the test case is this going to be. An example, where if you just create a loud enough, echo chamber laws and facts don't matter. Yeah. And then that means that you have one political party that is literally only in the thrall of a single person. Right. This human being who is their leader absolute that there is no diverging from him. Right. And I wonder how you have a democracy in the sense that you don't have a political party on the one side. You only have one functioning party. I don't think that isn't democracy. Joy. I think that we're we're in really dangerous territory because we also have news this week. Again, not the top story that Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law, which is literally out of the Tigers playbook to put your son in position of power, and you can do whatever he wants and the daughter can do whatever she wants. But the idea that he's not fired today is evidence that we are on that sliding scale on because it is clear that he is a national security threat. It's clear to anyone who knows anything about that space. And so the fact that we're waking up on Sunday days after that story has broken and hey still in his job is evident and after. Lawyer went on the record to essentially right Jared Kushner, lied to him about his status. Yeah. And the fact that you have not only Jared Kushner has a potential national security, but but we've completely glossed over what I think is the bombshell story of probably my lifetime that the president of the United States was investigated for potentially being an agent of a foreign power that lasted about one one hundred as long as these small lead story, right? And cone was very, you know, when he arrived, he you know, he was very specific that Trump was cheering the Russian hacking. You know, Roger stone was on the phone saying, it's going to be a document dump and Trump's you know, anyone else would have gone to the FBI. I mean, Al Gore's campaign got a a briefing book. Yeah. You know, a dirty trick and within hours, you know, the handed over to law enforcement. So yeah, I mean, you know, the collusion stuff isn't even the most incredible story this week. It's now open criminality. And is you as you pointed out, you know, the entire Republican party saying, it's fine and do whatever you want. That's right. Saying any crime is fine. Anything will be excused they've now openly just saying, so I wonder if your reporting is there any any sense of pause among Republicans that the all about the road. They are going down where they are essentially saying if he committed bribery, money laundering tax evasion or even open conspiracy to collude with a hostile foreign power. We just don't care. I mean, clearly this will be the question that will be answered in twenty. I mean right now with Fox News. There is thirty five percent of the electorate that will never break with Donald Trump. The the Republican party needs to decide you know, these are their voters. But if they go down the rabbit hole with these people, you know, that's not a good be a way to win national election. I mean, my concern is that is the Democratic Party. If they go too far in a progressive direction, it becomes less a referendum on Donald Trump, and then they can actually play. Yeah. Exactly. The question then becomes what if it is a way to win national election because we have not fixed the problem that allowed. Russia to interfere in the election. Right. Don't tell left the back door, maybe the front door open. Right. So what if it is a way to just win again and stay in power. Sometimes I think they might know something we don't know joy. Because if we recall from in two thousand sixteen the Republican emails were also hacked, the you know, we we never saw any of those those we're not dumped. So I don't know what's going to happen next. But I think Republicans are going down a dangerous path that they think that what's ever inside. This black box will be fine for them. And I don't think that there's evidence that we find for them. I think that there's collusion crimes obstruction crimes and also financial crimes, and we're and prosecutors are working on that. And they don't care what the thirty five percent things. Right. That's always going to be the bottom owner. The amazing points is new the Republican senators said concerns with Trump are gone entire right there. A lot of those house members who tried to go in between they got voted out there. And so it is straight up cult worship it may. Well, and and on top of that working fact that a sitting member of congress, you know, openly threatened a witness in front of the house representing. Up and he's not even. Committee's? They're him down. Not even on the committee bad gets actually showed right here. And then the fem Inc is not immediately excommunicated from his own party. It's just you know, boggles the imagination. Yeah. But the question then becomes do. We spend too much time thinking about Fox News. This piece of it. Because there's also Sinclair radiates into seventy percent of American homes as the local news, traffic and weather together. There's a whole constellation of these media outlets that are feeding the same narrative, and they are all on the same page if one it would be one thing if Fox News aside. Okay. We're going to be a cultish follower of Trump and a couple other news outlets decided that's not really what went on to. Do. We want to be conservative or not. They have all this is unprecedented. It is unprecedented in American politics and American media did just just reporting lies. Is there an end to the on the right that has the moral authority to counter that? No. I mean, the closest I would say is maybe the Wall Street Journal editorial page, right? Who speaks for sort of the big business country club wing of the party of the base of the party doesn't throw Dato? Yeah. And they're the elites of the global is. So no, I mean, the problem is the Republican party has been. Taken over by this cult of personality of reality TV shar star. It's incredible. And extraordinary that this is not like hair on fire. The new story all day every day everywhere. It's early and it's going to be back. Gabriel storm and Eric Boehlert. Thank you very much. And before we go to break here Saturday Night Live steak, we need to laugh on the Michael Cohen here. Mr. Cohen has played guilty to sh- morgage board a fraudulent activity. Yeah. And then right after that it says at the direction of President Trump at. Fun. Going into that. I'm not into that. We have two investigations mother report that we're all anxiously awaiting and peach mint is divisive issue in our country. And let us see what the facts are what the law is. And what the behaviors that the president one of the media rolled out one of its favorite narratives this week. Re upping the Democrats in disarray me after house speaker Nancy Pelosi again shutdown calls for Trump's impeachment after Michael Cohen testimony. And again after Joe, Biden dot black backlash from some Democrats for calling Mike Pence a decent guy. Both incidents seem to feed the media narrative of turmoil within the Democratic Party. But is this Democrats in disarray or democracy and action in a party that still contains multiple points of view? So Lena Maxwell's back with me. Now joining us Jason Johnson of the root Maria, Theresa Kumar, voter Latino and political consultant Jimmy Williams. Thank you guys for being here. So let's talk about this. So the media mean this week, and I'll start with you on this Jimmy was the. Democrats are in disarray because the liberal these progressive wing of the party, the progressive freshmen are coming after the moderates. There was a piece in the Washington Post talked about Xandra Cossio Cortez reportedly saying that Democrats who break ranks on the federal background check Bill. This is the Bill does the first time a long they passed the gun. Bill would be placed on a list to be unseated by activists in the twenty twenty election. You'll see clarified that on Twitter on Friday, saying the phone. I didn't say they were putting themselves on a list for primaries. I did say that by Dem's distinguishing themselves by breaking off on procedural MTR votes. They aren't inadvertently making a list of targets for the GOP. When for progressive advocates on their pro vote is this a real fight? Or is this the media just watching a party that has multiple points of view in it hash that out? Well, let me just say this. It's clear that congresswoman a causE' of Cortez has never actually been primary. She's run a primary and she's never had to run a real life. Because if she had she would know that any procedural vote that you take on the highest is actually a thirty second ad by the the natural publican campaign committee. So that means that her colleagues her fellow democratic colleagues that may not be as liberal as her who take those votes in swing districts in the in the suburbs of Genio or upstate New York or Arizona, or wherever that is are going to be deemed by those votes, if they don't vote their districts, so that being said does it mean, the Democrats were disarray. No, it means the Democrats actually have a massive tent with lots of different voices from the center center left to the far left fine. I got it. I'm okay with that. What I'm not, okay. With is a freshman democrat either the house or the Senate running around and saying they're going to primary their colleagues who they sit on. Committee's with who they share or have office space next to or what have you? It's really easy to demonize people that you don't want to to I guess like because you don't get to know them. But if you do that to the other party, I get it that's been around since the beginning of the country, but doing it to your fellow Democrats to me seems short sided narrow minded and remarkably exactly what Donald Trump and his acolytes of white nationalist us to do. So we're playing into their hands by doing this. I think it's foolish. Well, it's let let's just hope for second to it. And we just talked last break last block about the sort of undyed looted feel that the Republican party now has to Donald Trump where it's one chorus. It's one hand clapping. They're not allowed to deviate from him. They have to talk like candidate to walk like him soon. They'll be all wearing extra long ties like him and doing their hair like him at this point. But on the right, but it, but but on the democratic side, there is more ideological diversity. It is the more diverse party ideologically as well. As in every other way, diversity means. However, there is a sense that what you just heard from Jimmy Williams is starting to happen inside the party in which they're getting annoyed at the leadership. And that there is the sense that the newcomers at the progressives are attacking their own the Washington Post had a piece that talked about liberals lashing out at moderates in a closed door. Sessions were reportedly frustrated speaker Pelosi lashed out at about two dozen moderates and pressured them to get on board. And we're either a team or we're not and we have to make that decision. It sounds to me like the speaker is trying to really hug the progressives tightly bring them in the fold and it's telling the moderates not to publicly attack them, right? Well, let's let's not forget Nancy Pelosi is from northern California. I keep saying that this freshman class of the more progressive voice, can very be very very well be the class that she's been waiting for. They very much are aligned with her values. But she also understands that in order for the Democratic Party to be that party of a big tent. Not everybody's going to be Spousing the more. The more liberal positions, and they have to give those individuals breathing room. Because no one knows their district better than the person that just ran it I-, I propose really examining Connor lamb, Connor lamb won his district as a veteran. He went against a an individual that basically had won the district by over twenty points in favor of Donald Trump. And he was able to bring in the democrat sensibility of a moderate over moderate democrat to win that district almost by a landslide. So as they are talking about where are they going to land? It's important to have these debates in the Democratic Party. It's important to make sure that we are thinking big in Dacia, but it's also important for individual Democrats to understand that they have that they're gonna be able to take the vote that they need in order to win that reelection. Yeah. And you Jason Johnson. This is kind of on the writ large in. If you want to zoom out this. When you talk about this tension between the moderate wing of the Democratic Party and impressive wing. Nothing says that more than birdie versus Hillary. Okay. It's still there. If you think it's over tweet one of those people's names, and then what's your mentions on fire? Okay. But the reality is it's Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton actually both in Selma Alabama both at the commemoration of the Bloody Sunday March. Bernie Sanders got some shade from Hillary Clinton staffers who said, oh, you know, the king was flying around on private jets. And then you had Bernie Sanders. Go on the byu say he doesn't want any advice for Hillary Clinton. But they're now both have they have to be together and play combat today. Does that dynamic in the party still wind up mattering with him in the race her not in the race? And a lot of other people with his issues in the race. Like, the Elizabeth Warren of the world who had that issue, by the way before you before. It's like when you got it from him. I just wanted me. Right. You I I don't think so as much, and I think we saw that in the Blue Wave in two thousand eighteen I think a lot of people now look people who actually worked for the Clinton campaign worked for the Sanders campaign. They've got the scars. They've got the war stories, and they may never trust each other. And that's completely legitimate. That happens in. Politics. But I think a lot of voters decided look Donald Trump and his Republican party acolytes are so dangerous that we can get past this conflict. It's it's like mama dad can keep arguing but the kids don't wanna put thanksgiving together. So I think a lot of Democrats have figured that out. But I will say this about this sort of Democrats in disarray. And I think this is key. I don't think the Democrats are in disarray. But I definitely think they need to do a better job of protecting their freshman. I think what happened to proceed to leave this week. I think what's happening to congress from Oman. I think the leadership needs to come forward in defend these progressive newcomers because they're being attacked in a way that we haven't seen before. And they need more defense from the people were supposed to be their colleagues in congress. And that's very good point. Because I and I could go go go to you on the Hillary Bernie think right? You work feel free to timing on that. But I, but I the the freshmen are being targeted this war. Particularly I on a Presley ale. See every day right now. Rush to leave an Ilan, Omar the those four to hear the Republicans tell it our president of co presidents of the United States. They are these story every day, and they're being targeted in a way that Nancy Pelosi was to I wonder if part of her defense of them is also she's been there. Yeah. He was the boogie woman for years from twenty fan on. And now, I think it sounds like what she's saying is we gotta stop letting people at tab are people exactly and they should allow our stop letting people attack the four women of color because it's not just that they're freshman congresswoman, it's not just that. They're popular is that they're women of color. So they're easy targets and they needed somebody new. I mean, attacking Nancy Pelosi was getting old ended in it doesn't work. So I think the Republicans need new boogie woman. And now they have four to choose from. But your point about sort of the divide in in in terms of the Democratic Party. I don't think the Democrats are in disarray, but Democrats are allowed to disagree on policy ideas. I mean, that's sort of what a primary primaries about I thought and in terms of the sort of residual impact of two thousand sixteen. I don't have anything against Bernie Sanders. I think that my criticism of him and any other democrat running in the race comes from a genuine place of trying to. Encourage messaging that resonates with constituencies that those campaigns will need to win. Yeah. So if there's a criticism of Bernie Sanders that he doesn't reach out and actually provide messaging for black women that is a valid critique because he's going to need that constituency to win the same is true for Elizabeth Warren and Kristen gillibrand and all the other candidates. And so I think that these disagreements are actually policy based and not just personality base. It's also Jimmy Williams. It's also about how you actually functionally win a democratic primary because there has been this question of whether or not Democrats need to vault over there hardcore base, which is mainly people of color and younger voters and try to go right for Trump voters, even in a primary setting in present themselves that way to primary that doesn't sound like it can work in a in a party that has become as diverse and really as progressive as the Democratic Party is. But I don't know is there is there a stronger case that I'm thinking in my head for somebody like Joe Biden who's trying to sort of run centrists from the jump. Well, first of all the for the in any primary the first person to get more than one percent of the other person or the other people that you run against you win your primary if you don't believe me, ask Alexandria Akhazia Cortes. She did a remarkably good job at that. However, I would suggest to you in South Carolina. So take for example, the the the first early state that's majority minority if you have fifteen people running in the democratic primary in South Carolina. I don't think we'll have that many by that time. But let's say you have six or seven people divide one hundred percent by six or seven, and you can come up with the number that you have to win that means that the black vote, which is the majority minority vote down here in South Carolina is split out amongst six or seven people. So you can't write off white Democrats in South Carolina. You cannot write off independence and South Carolina, which is a growing number of people because of the Trump fatigue that is actually happening on the ground down here. So I wouldn't I would suggest it's not just about putting together minority coalitions. You have to do that in democratic primaries fact of life, just like you. Don't have to do that in Republican primaries because you don't what you do have to not write off white voters in many of these faith do that. If you do you will not win in certain places where we. Joy, just very briefly when we talk a lot about the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party that was just elected. But what we fail to recognize is that the majority of the Democrats that came in actually come from moderate districts. This is the very first class that we had a large large group of veterans running as Democrats in the middle of the road of America. So it's really trying to cobble it together and recognizing that it's going to be all elections are local. But when it comes to the presidential it's going to be very low because were going to have a bigger challenge because they are at this point. I'm more broadly Representative national party, and so they have to navigate that's gonna Maxwell thank you very much Jason to Maria. I end Jimmy will be back later the show coming up Sunday, which means the Republicans are all Sunday shows defending Donald Trump, and we'll have some of that next. This morning. Several democratic presidential candidates are in Selma Alabama to Mark the fifty fourth anniversary of Bloody Sunday on March. Seventh nineteen sixty five peaceful, civil rights demonstrators were brutally attacked by Alabama state troopers as the attempted to cross the Edmund Pettus bridge, Georgia congressman John Lewis was on the front lines of the March and nearly lost his life. Fifty four years did nearly lost his life fifty four years later. He still reflects on his experience. We just kept walking with dignity and with fries. We will walking on on a side wall. Boldly peaceful happened. No one Santa word that was some concern about what what is going to happen to the women and children into line. Without we would be arrested and jail knew. We didn't have any idea that move being. It's not any way to forget. That day. And there's no way we can forget you and what we've come a long way since Bloody Sunday, we got a reminder this week that the quest for Justice is ongoing yesterday. It was announced that the officers who shot and killed von Clark in Sacramento, California. Last year will not face criminal charges. Clark was shot seven times as he was standing in his grandmother's backyard police were investigating a case of vandalism and said, they thought Clarke had a gun, but he only had a cell phone. Stay with us. They'll be more Amdo when we come back. Bother you that Donald Trump surrounded him kept this man as a confidante for everything you've described him as why did he keep them as a confidante you'd have to ask the you'd have to have that bother? You not really does does doesn't it. What I tend to focus on is the amazing record. We've seen into the leadership of President Trump. And you guys want to talk about a lawyer that worked for him for ten years and came in and told all kinds of lies Republican congressman Jim Jordan appeared to admit that the only reason why Republicans are going along with Donald Trump is to get what the party wants back with me Maria Theresa and Jimmy and joining the table now. Well, the virtual table, Jennifer Rubin MSNBC political analyst and writer for the Washington Post. I say that because miss you guys you guys are not here. With me, Jennifer. I'm gonna go to you. I play a little bit more. Jim Jordan on meet the press this morning, and this is him. It's all extraordinary. Extrordinary? But if this is Jim Jordan on how he believes Donald Trump when it comes to Russia collusion. Take a listen. Do you that the president has not always told the truth on Russia? I don't I don't think the presence allied about Russia at all. I not once there's been no clue not about the Trump Tower. Brasco James, you never he didn't he didn't miss country, even James Komi, even James Komi when he when we deposed him said up until the day. He was fired may ninth twenty seventeen said there was no they were doing this investigation. No single bit of evidence to show any type of they didn't want to tell the country that eight up Trump Tower Moscow deal in the works. I don't know that this is the the president said one thing, and then you got you got Michael Cohen saying something else. This is a sitting member of congress is that the opportunity to investigate this to hear the evidence as see the checks written by the president. And you know, we sound like he sounds like he actually could be hosting a show on Fox News. And I wanted just to prove that to you. I wanna play a clip that we played a little bit earlier. And this is Tucker Carlson sounding a lot like Jim Jordan. There's no collusion. There's no Russian blackmail. There's no obstruction of Justice. None of the things that are entire media class has spent the last two years huffing and speculating wildly about if Michael Cohen had the dime. He would drop it. But he doesn't there is nothing there. It was all a lie. Can we go home? Now. Jennifer, what do you make of your former parties ability to pretend the eight hours of testimony never happened? And they're those checks were never seen. None of this happened. And then using Donald Trump's term, no collusion. It's beyond FOX. It's kind of like Stalinist Russia, where whatever the great leader says he'll figure out a way to justify the fact that he'd said something different the day before it doesn't matter. Whenever you ask about the lies. The answer is a complete disconnect. No collusion. No. We're asking about lies. No collusion. That's the way. These people talk and to watch them Hooton and hollering and carrying on its he pack and to watch this kind of performance is just pathetic. It's unworthy of people who are elected is unworthy their Oso office, and they treat their voters like rubes, and I'm and it's question in my mind, how long they're going to be able to play this game. And if at some point the voters get sick of these people right now, we haven't seen any evidence of this in deep red America. Well, I mean, you you also Jimmy Hart people at CPAC chanting, lock her up Hillary Clinton as a private citizen. It's nothing to do with Donald Trump, and they're still doing that chant. Let's play another piece of Jim Jordan this morning. And this is even more extraordinary in a way because this goes to a fundamental fact that is at this point. I don't even know who disputes this on whether or not he thinks Russia even wanted Donald Trump elected at all here is Jim Jordan. But sounds like they believe it's possible that Russians for their own foreign policy reasons wanna Trump not clear. Why would I don't know? I mean, they can they can do whatever they whatever they're trying to do who knows what their motives were what I know is there's not one bit of evidence to show any type of coordination collusion conspiracy whatsoever between the Trump campaign and Russia to impact the election. But, but there is all kinds of evidence to show that the Clinton campaign work with Russians to impact the elections. It's it's disinformation is the only word that I can use for that. Jimmy. It's a lie. He's lying. Jim, jordan. The congressman from Ohio is lying. He's a big fat liar. This reminds me so much people forgotten this. Let's go back to the nineteen. Seventies would Watergate was really happening. And when the House Judiciary committee began hearings on the impeachment of Richard Nixon, the sitting president there were not more. I mean, more I'm sorry. There were more than a handful of sitting Republicans in a in a in a in a small minority within the house at that point in time. But they were still more than a handful of Republicans on that committee who thought Richard Nixon to the entire proceedings was innocent. They thought he was innocent despite all the proof despite John dean's testimony despite everything the overwhelming evidence that Richard Nixon was a crook. They just knew he was innocent. Nothing has changed. This is a party defining moment for the Republicans. They think Donald Trump does no wrong because they're utterly terrified of their dwindling manure. Status in this country. And so whatever Jim Jordan says or the idiot from FOX whatever his name is with the bow ties any of those people, I just don't even listen to them because what they're saying doesn't matter. It's not reality. Chris matthews. Our colleague at NBC says this all the time if you say that the capital Japan is Rocha over and over and over and over again in your mind, in your mind, the capital, Japan Rocha, meanwhile, and the rest of the world, it's actually Tokyo, and that's what's happening here. So there's just they're just sounding boards off each other. It means nothing and all we have to do is just keep exposing the lies, and exposing what Donald Trump and his little white national sycophantic acolytes have been doing for now over two years, and you know, to the point even Moran Cresa where a thing you saw. I mean, the thing that's extraordinarily reason. We're even bothering to play it this morning is that it's literally denying what you've seen what you physically seen. And the fact that it works that you can tell people you did not see that. You did not see those. Cheques, you do not see what you're seeing Lynn patent. Everyone saw her used as a prop as a physical prop to prove to disprove Michael Coen's interactions with Donald Trump. He's saying I was with it when he said these things that we're racist. But to just prove that a silent Lynn, Pat and was made to stand up and show her physical body to say that's not true to just this woman standing here said it's not true in patent was interviewed on FOX and friends this morning about being not being a proper being accused of being a prop. This is more in the sort of disinformation cycle here. She is. The only prop in that room. Was Michael Cohen for the Democratic Party. And what you've seen happening? The last week is the classic racists, double standard that a lot of minority. Conservatives face every day. You know, I was attacked because I don't represent what they're liberal narrative is of what a black woman should be God forbid, I was in that room on my own merit with my own opinion on somebody who I've known just as long as Michael Cohen has known the progress on. In her own giving her own opinion in that room. She didn't speak that she's a black woman that doesn't represent the narrative of what a black woman should be in terms of liberals, what a silent prop is that the liberal narrative that you shouldn't do she's saying that she was there speaking when she didn't even talk not not at all. And I think a lot of majority of Americans had no idea who she was while except for when she was paying into like camera. But I think that the danger that we're falling into is that it's very clear that the Republicans both those that are elected those part of the propaganda machine on Fox News all had the exact same crib sheet. And they are continuously feeding it into a group of Americans that don't have a number of outlets to actually way the information against and that is the problem. So they are constantly getting reinforced that what the president is doing is not collusion with you're constantly getting reinforced what he said is not ally. Whether it is the fact that they are turning into Rush Limbaugh gq and Coulter whether they jump into their car, and they listen to the local news that is dominated by Fox News. Then they go into Facebook. And. They have their own feet of their friends, reinforcing this, and that is the bubble that we have to figure out as Americans how to penetrate and how to break because that is the real danger of the disinformation. It's not by accident. It's very very much done deliberately recognizing that. That's the only way that they could hold onto power. And when you have someone like a Representative Jordan talking saying that he doesn't care is. Because what you said earlier joys that they have broader visions for what they want the one for their legislative policy priorities at any cost at any cost star democracy at any cost to our institutions. Yeah. It's called democrat demagoguery. And unfortunately, it does work Kumar. Thank you very much Jimmy and Jennifer we'll be right back because coming up, I guess we're gonna tell me who won the week. And what time is it your favorite time time from who? With me now day, some Johnson, Jennifer Rubin and Jimmy Williams, where am I going to go where am I going to go where am I going to go Denver Rubin? Who won the week who won the week Representative Elijah Cummings whose sat ahead of the house oversight committee conducted those Michael Cohen hearings elicited real documentary and verbal evidence of financial crimes from the president. And then with really a beautiful soliloquy both urging Michael Cohen to redeem himself. And also a statement about America that we are better than this that we can overcome this. And I found that really in a sea of pessimism and awfulness just a Ray of sunshine. Yeah. I think if a clip let's play a little bit of a clip of that. We're dancing with the angels. The question will be asked in two thousand and nineteen. What do we do? To make sure we kept out democracy, intact type to tell you. That was a sermon it really was a sermon on America. And I thought it was quite good. So that's a compelling compelling case Jimmy Williams, you are under immense pressure. I can't imagine what you're feeling right now the pressure the, you know, you probably the blood vessels in your brain probably pulsating because it's very difficult to follow. What Jennifer Rubin said. But I'm gonna go ahead and ask you because I am obliged to ask you, Jimmy Williams, sir. Won the week. Well since Jennifer stole my pick, actually. I'm I'm having to I mean because who wouldn't pick a logic comings. And by the way, Jason you should have picked a logic comings. If you did. Motto is don't don't have a heart attack. Everyone Representative Alexandria Akhazia Cortes, and some of the other freshmen members of the house government oversight committee, and I'll tell you why they did something unbelievably cool. They actually asked very good, very pointed. Very smart questions of Michael Cohen pivoted off of what the inanity the Republicans were asking or not asking just preaching about. And that was something I have not seen freshman on either the house or the Senate do in a very long time. I would suggest that some of these veteran lawmakers go back and look at that that that Tate those five minutes that to lead and cozy of Cortez. They ask because they did a really Dag on good job and more importantly, they gave multiple committees. And the house of representatives more lines of questioning in inquiry that we didn't have before that. And for that they won the week. You know, I believe Jimmy Williams. We've had theft now. Alleged in terms of who won the week pick. But now by mentioning you'll see you have melted down the entire right wing. They have completely melted. Into a puddle. They are now being days complete. You're not to mention her name. Her name is the one to not to be mentioned, it sends people crazy. But you've also put just enormous pressure on days. I can't even almost feel sorry for Jason Johnson. It's. You know, I rarely have any pity for Jason. But today, I still give you the opportunity, you know, what because you came. Anyway, you wore that. Nice Sunday, go to meet. So I'm gonna go ahead and ask you, sir. When the week VI winner of this week is fifty four year old black activist James heart stern the man who saved black history month twenty nine thousand nine it was reported earlier this week that Jane stern trick the leader of a Neo Nazi hate group involved in the Charlottesville attacks into turning over leadership of the organization to him. He has vowed as a black man now, we're gonna Neo Nazi group that he will expose their leadership dismantle the organization from the inside and give their website over to anti hate groups. This is Clayton. Biggs B and like in black klansman on bond that is a dark good. You yourself your tournament is about actually be okay after this should be giant today show. Those are really good answers. And I got to tell you this never happens on this show because typically what happens with who when the week is you all do your very best. You guys put an one effort. And then I tell you that you're wrong. But in this case one man has stepped forth out of the muck and out of the din of history. He has stepped forward that he has done the extraordinaire. He's given the right answer to who in the week. And I have never done this before. But I'm gonna go ahead. And do it the right answer to who when the week given by Jimmy Williams, James William Alexander Cossio Cortes and the freshman. I have to say, and the reason I say they won the week is because they were in the round to questioning of the epic Michael Cohen hearing, and they're and they're questioning was sharp. It was pointed. It was the Saint ro Khanna actor is quite good too. I have to say, but I'm gonna play the a little bit of Alexander Okaz Cortez is really pointed question that actually illicit potentially new areas of inquiry potential crimes. To your knowledge to the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company. Yes. Who else knows that the president? Did this Allen Weisselberg Ron Liebman, and Matthew calamari, and where would the committee? Find more information on this. Do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them? Just need funded at the Trump org. Hey, one, by the way to Michael Cohen for brevity. I mean, his aunts were actually brief or let me go through. And like, you guys, my new oversight and government reform committee, Jennifer Rubin. If you're on the on the government won't be who would you wanna call next what witnesses comes? Oh, Allen Weisselberg. He's the man with all the numbers. He's the guy who's inside the Trump organization he would know about money laundering. He would know about Bank fraud. Yeah. He would know about tax evasion. The he's the man he's the man Jimmy Williams who who who who do you call? I would call any contractor for the Trump organization spent specifically lawyers and accountants for any entity that Trump owns all about the Benjamins. Who do you call Jason Johnson? I would I would call the appraiser, but I also want to give a shout out to your hotel to a Cortes. Remember? She wanted to be on ways and means which is the only committee that can actually call for Trump's tax returns. Yeah. But basically, she outsmarted them all by saying. Hey, I kind of think we need the tax returns here on oversight. So yes, she did a great job, and I will call for the appraiser and speaker Pelosi stack in that committee with those freshmen smart, Jason Johnson. Jimmy williams. Jennifer rubin. Thank you, all go and have a great brunch. More aimed you after the break. Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday, sit down podcast on the latest episode. We revisit one of our favorites with Emily blunt. I chat with the actress about reprising the iconic role of Mary Poppins, and what it was like to work alongside her husband, John Krasinski in last year's monster hit horror film, a quiet place. You can listen to that full conversation with Emily blunt right now on the Sunday, sit down podcast get it for free wherever you download yours.
Aired 6 months ago 100:26
Before Before the Flood - 053
Welcome friends to the how to heretic. I'm Mark an uncle, Dan, this is your user's guide to life on the outside. That's right. Leaving religion is the first step into a larger better world, but it can also be scary world things were differently now, never fear. That's why we're here. We're your audio locals and with help from good friends experts in all sorts of fields. We're gonna share the stories and seek the knowledge to build a great life after all, you only get one that we know of. So let's make the most. Deed. Well, Dan, what do we. Yes, but we can. We can continue to talk about all that list off the air. Okay. It's a long list. It's it's an ugly, check it twice, but here we are. We don't quite have Corum. Doug will join us in a segment later in the show. Yeah. Yeah, he's a, he's away been called away on on important business. He's on a mission, but yes, he's serving. His second mission is to your bicycle tour of Central America, but we have plenty to talk about, oh yeah, on this show we're, we're going to. We're going to talk a little tech little Chuck, talk, little tech talk. We just because we think it's important to keep keep everybody up on the latest innovations. Oh, yeah. In in religion. Yeah. And then we're gonna we're going to. We got really soggy. God we're gonna talk about is really awesome. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to bring us. You're going to take us all the way back about as far back as we can set the way back machines. Yeah, it's, you're gonna see this one matters more than you might think. And. Fun- fund way in a fun way and then we're going to talk. We're gonna have a how to that is a little off the cuff, and I'm kind of surprised my surprise my my uncles. Yeah, we don't know what's coming with this idea, but I because I think I think it's a, it's a bit more philosophical than most. So yeah. And who more qualified to dial, delve into philosophy than in art school dropout, an acting school drop-out? Yes, lest we forget whatever. Whatever article, Doug is the only you both have college degrees. I'm I don't know. I dropped out Doug. It's just Doug. The only one degree he's got paper who gave Doug a degree. I debris. And one last thing could quick announcement because it's it's rushing towards us. Yeah, which is the how to heretic hang out. Yes. At on October the fourteenth at Wasatch pub and brewery. Yeah, it's gonna be a hootenanny six to nine PM. It's going to be delightful if you're in or anywhere near the area of Salt Lake City in the state of Utah, or you can make it here. Yup. Show up. Come show up. It's going to be fun. Meet us meet, meet. Other heretics will provide. Some snacks will be a cash bar. They'll be some fun and excitement for everyone who knows what's going to be happening. Anything could happen. It could be pants optional. We don't. We don't know, madness will ensue. So please join us again over the fourteenth six to nine PM we'll call it a family reunion, meet your favorite uncle 's Wasatch brew pub on twenty twenty one hundred south and Highland driving Salt Lake City. Utah. Go to the Facebook page of, we've we, we've, we've posted an event there. Or you can check in with us and there there is a an RSVP website so you can. You can let us know that you're coming. Yeah, and it's it. We would just love to meet all y'all. It's going to be a thing in historic sugarhouse. Why would you miss that? So would you miss that? So without further ado, let's get on with the show, hey, ho. Dan, are there are miracles there are there are wonder working things. Yeah, there and but oftentimes there are other helpers along the way. I suppose. You know, I'll tell you this so much of our exploration of religion on the show. Yes, looks at ancient religion. Yeah, looks looks. You know, thousands of years. You know before the common era when or we look at the bronze age iron age, but you know what when everything was true when everything was true? Yeah, and we didn't have any way of testing anything, but you know what? We don't live in those ages. No, this is what space age? No, we're post space-age now. Yeah. Fuck space space. Age was like the fucking Jetsons way posts would like both before. And after that, we're time age. Right. Well, I think we're in what we're what's now called the great pause. We're now the Krino in the grand recession rate grand, revert back to awfulness. All consuming stupid. Yes, India, but you know what this is. Tell me air of tech technology technology technology. Yeah, we're better than all those assholes in the in their barbaric eras. I mean, can you imagine what the internet during the bronze age was like, it was absurd. Yeah, slower than dialup even slower than dial up. It's ridiculous. Also cuneiform dial up and you know if we wanna throw up a pyramid doesn't take no hundreds of years now we can throw that up in in a few months. Not that we've done it, but we could easy. Yeah, it's too easy. That's why we don't. We don't do it because it's some, it's stupid and it's a basic shape. We can't even use it and we're past that we're done with it. We're better. I mean, we did it in Vegas. We got, we got the Luxor and it's wonderful, and it is a beautiful, beautiful piece of engineering. Really. Wonderful. So there you go. Yeah. We're better than they are always. I want tech. That's what I'm getting some technology. So I'm going to introduce you to a guy named Volney Mathison. Oh, also known as this sounds very fancy, dex Volney that was a pseudonym under which he wrote. You've course will remember of only as the author of the rousing book the radio BUSTER, colon being some of the adventures of Samuel Jones, deep sea wireless operator. Among. Tell you how many times I've read that. I can tell me I got dressed up in character for the midnight book release everybody else. It's so much fun. It's it's such. It's so much fun. I was Sammy the severity Weyermann. Oh, really? I always like, I, you know, I always went as captain Jones because I, it's just I should have got his captain Jones because Sammy's brassiere was always gonna snug for me. Yeah, broad chested fellow, but I see, I see the appeal. You can see how it works with my slender ankles, but anyway, that among his other as as that very catchy title may indicate Volney was a curious man who was inclined toward electron IX. Okay. His is official bona feed as seem sketchy. It seems to be basically that he wouldn't tell the job building shortwave radios. And the scariest of scare quotes here was a chiropractor and psychoanalyst. I couldn't find. I couldn't find any evidence of formal training in any of those things. He just was them and it was in scare quotes of I was putting it in putting okay because there early early twentieth century was a really fun time. I guess. I think I think wild wild west unit came to medicine if you wanted to be a polymath with no accreditation that was your, that was the golden age. That was boy. You can just be all the things you know what else? I am a dentist career. I'll do your teeth. You just find a you find a business card printer with flexible moral yardstick, and you can be anything you want. You can be whatever you want your sure. Now you gotta be night to have a license, somebody's hair school. So dumb anyway, Mathis Mathisen. He described having sat in on a lecture in the year, nineteen hundred fifty by fellow an educated psychoanalyst in. Enthusiast. I'll give it to you in his own words in Matheson's wondering if I can guess who this is camping out, but yeah, please do. Yeah. I next attended to series of lectures being given by a very controversial figure who several times emphasized that perhaps the major problem of psychotherapy was the difficulty of maintaining the communication of accurate or valid data from the patient to the therapist. It appeared to me that the psycho Galvano meter showed most promise the controversial figure as you none. No doubt of Gus has have guest is the son of none other than mother Hubbard. That's right. Lafayette. Ronald Hubbard Vel RH to you? Yeah. One Ron l. Ron Hubbard. Yeah. So just dear listener from this moment on this story will be nothing but incredibly sad, right? That's. We're not getting far into Scientology. We're going to talk about what that Galvano meter, psycho Galvano meter. Yes. If volved into right, which is Scientology's most famous bit of tech, the box that does nothing that is the meter. The needle tells the guy exactly what he wants to know anyway. Right. Well, here's the thing if you think that I'm being a bit of a jerk by claiming that it does nothing. Yeah. Well, tell that to multiple courts around the world because on many occasions, they have had to force Scientologists to stop claiming that it does in fact actually do a thing. Yeah. So we'll get into that later, but I, what is an eater, what isn't he meter? Let's I'll I'll try to attempt to describe. Yeah, it's a little box. Maybe. You know a foot and a half by by nine inches. Yeah. And you hold the pre-clear the non the the person who's being audited, what science is on the street call a Mark. Yeah, exactly. The Mark the Mark yet because, okay, here's the deal Scientology I'm what a lot of our listeners will have will have gone into, you know, a lot of the literature, the cool. There's several good documentaries on on the net flicks or whatever about Scientology. Yeah, but if you don't know if you walk into a Scientology church church building, there's scientific Scientology center. Yeah, if you walk in there and they will welcome, you bet they will and you say, hey, what are you guys all about? Eventually you'll be sat down and I, you'll be given a quote, psychological, Taffer, snout tempers. Now that's what it is that will tell you all. All the things that are wrong with you. Write a horse Gopal tell you all the same things that you have fears and challenges in your there are things in your past that are unresolved. Does that sound like, oh my God, that's me. It's like you knew me. Did my mom call you before? I got here. And then. The individually, if you if you stick with the by the way they can solve all of those psychological problems eventually. So eventually. Well, not eventually never. That's right, but they can solve them never if you give them for our your money for a fee, right? So they're not allowed to practice therapy so don't confuse it with therapy therapies bad by the way. Yeah, they'll tell you all it doesn't work. All. Okay. Going back a little bit l. are h basically peace be upon him people, the prophet. He basically just took the the foundation like Freudian psychology one. Oh one, yeah, and said, okay, and failed it and failed it. But he just took the basics of it. Yeah, and said, oh symbolism and dream imagery. And and you know, mother relationships and all the all the things that are kind of the punch lines of. Of jokes about psychologists, right? That's the basis of scientists that you're building block, that that is your foundation. There's aliens in volcanoes hydrogen bombs, but this is what happens when you get a pulp scifi writer, yes, starting a religion, yes, at and and truly the Guinness Book of world record holder for most works of shit ever published, right? Most bullshit pumped out into the public. Oh, it's all crap as anyway. You know what here? Here's what I'll do. I'll read from Scientology dot org, all read their own explanation of what the eater is. Let's get it from the horse's mouth. Let's get the fuck India in part because I've found it so delightful. And this is actually a large chunk, but I just couldn't not bring it in because it's so much fun. Yeah, e meter is a short term for electro. Psychot- her or psycho meter. I don't know how how they say it. I like psychotic that is straight out of a nineteen fifties. Black and white. Right? Scifi movie, right? Woke him up the electro. Psycho SICOM, Sally. You gotta chief people. I analyzed the data, give poop. Here's what they say. Short-term term for electoral commader. It is a religious artifact us as a spiritual guide in auditing. It is for use only by us call Scientology minister, Scientology minister in training to help the pre pre clear locate and confront areas of spiritual upset. Now, you may have noticed that that term religious artifact. Yes, that is the finger bone of Timothy. Yeah, it is literally what they were forced to call it right when they were legally no longer allowed to call it anything useful or medical those those tent pegs of religious words, right? That are pounded into the melon of this paragraph, right? And they have and they had to use it because if they claimed that it did anything they get suit, yes. So it is a religious artifact. Here's next paragraph. In itself. By the way, this also comes directly out of the of some lawsuits in itself. The immediate does nothing. It is an electronic instrument that measures mental state and change and change of state in individuals and assist the precision and speed of auditing. The meter is not intended or effective for the diagnosis treatment or prevention of any disease. They're in the clear right? They've made it there in literally in the clear, yeah, there or at least pre clear. Yeah, they're pretty close in order to understand how the meter works is necessary to understand some basic Scientology concepts. This is still them they are. There are three basic parts of man. So we're going to give you the l. Ron Hubbard theory on human psychology. Okay goes this is he took eight boy. He took Freud and then he added. Yeah, this is what happens when you when you take a Sifi mind and at to a science world, right? There are three basic parts of man, mind, body and the-then Satan. That's right. The Dayton isn't immortal, spirit, spiritual being the individual himself, the Dayton inhabits a body and has a mind, which is a collection of mental image pictures. The pictures in the mind contain energy and mass mass. The pictures. Yeah. Okay, contain energy and mass just in case any of you missed it? Right. The pictures in the mind, energy, the energy and force in pictures of painful or upsetting in experiences can have a harmful effect upon an individual. This harmful effect. Sorry, this harmful energy or force is called charge. So they just like to make up new definitions for words. Yeah. Well, in typical quackery they take words other than faith in which is based on the Greek fada, but the take these take scientific words like mass and energy. They just kind of rewire them to mean whatever the fuck they want them. Right. So it kind of has the veneer of science nece it sure. It sure feels scienc-. Yeah, science Scientology. Tala gist. Yeah, exactly. Obviously, now, obviously, everything that I just read is true. Obviously things ally with L, Ron Hubbard lie. It would it. No sense. He was a high ranking person in the navy he made up, was he apparently he was in the I was reading. He wasn't. He wasn't and it was given command of two ships. Yeah, which was then which both times was then taken away from me. Fucked up. Yeah. Yeah, two little cruisers. Yeah, yeah. Any who? Obviously it's all true. The only way you can get rid of painful or upsetting pictures, of course, is with the counseling offered by scientologist minister who will audit quote, unquote minister, who will quote unquote audit you for a lot of quote, unquote money. They do not call these actually call these people, ministers auditors, but they are ministers of the church, their official deers. They've had to overlay religious words on all of this stuff, but he never intended for this to be a religion. But when but when he realized that the only way that he could practice it without getting sued and having everything taken from him right was if he called it a religion. So we called it a religion. Started using words like ministers started using because he wanted to. Yeah, he kind of co opted a version of the crucifix that Jesus appears nowhere. No in their literature. That's not even Jesus. Yes. Yeah, basically much. He is the the sort of Muhammad of of nearly, oh, yeah, but, but I mean, it's like I think he overlaid a whole bunch of stuff on he wanted. What he wanted to do was be the inventor of a revolution in psychological. Yep, research and psychological help for people, and he also wanted to get rich. And when he realized that like practicing medicine without a license is you know a crime? Yeah, he just did it under the guise of religion and today, no longer a crime because religion is because we're that stupid right in our because we allow religion so much fucking leash yet these abuses, I mean, and Scientology is nothing, but an insane. Abusive psychologically and physically abusive system that is a money vacuum. Yeah, that's it. It it offers. And if you walk into one of the science. Centers. The moment before you hit the e meter, their personality test is the last free thing they're going to do for you. Yeah. Everything else from soup-to-nuts is fee based service, you'll be told to buy books. You'll be told to do this, that and the other. And if you do, if you say no to any of it, you're just denying your own clear auditing is like is there's a pretty high cost per hour and it takes hundreds of hours to get to each level of auditing. It's just a complete scam. It's a toe. I mean, you know, you would have to pay a real therapist for every hour of their time. True. So, but as a real therapist going to ask you to hold to soup cans while they look at a wiggly speedometer and that's and that's we and we should get to that. Here's what this machine is. Yes, the pre clear. It looks like first of all, the the, the modern cabinetry of this machine looks like a dispenser for feminine hygiene products in a in a nice restaurant bathroom, right. I mean, it's got like a, it's got a needle. That that sort of moves on on a on a on a dial. Yeah, so that you can watch it and see what's happening. Yeah. The dial is does not have any numbers or anything. It is just it is a really just has it. It's literally just like, you know, a wedge shape thing and the. And so what? So it's and it's got a couple of a couple of actual knobs like an speedometer. It's just, yes, base numbers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So so the pre clear holds, as you said, basically to soup counts originally was soup cans metal cylinders, and this device sends a tiny, tiny amount of electricity through and that you know am basically what it does is a thing called. It it. It does monitor electro dermal activity like Vanik response, right? Which is basically. Yeah, you're. The the sort of little bit of electronically that's running through your body that's discernable through your skin. Yeah, this is a. This is also technology that's used in polygraphs. Yes. In certain versions of polygraphs, it is not reliable to tell you anything right. We could get into polygraphs to those are probably bullshit. Also going clear. Yeah, in in going clear, they describe the meter half a polygraph. Yeah, right. And it's probably a third of a polygraph. Yeah. So at best it's half as reliable as a fully unreliable technology technology. Exactly, right. All this basically does is monitor some change in the electrical sort of things that are going on in the body. And it doesn't it. There's no nuance to this thing. The you hold the cans, the person adjusts one of the dials until the needles in the middle. Yeah. And then if the needle moves right or left, they know something right. Something has happened. Yes. And then they interpret you have a pulse or or you know, in fact, I don't need it doesn't measure heart rate. It doesn't measure your heart at all. No it. But like, you know, your body does respond in, you know, and, and all of your nervous system is electric. So little electric things do happen in your body. You do respond to stimulus. If somebody asks you a very uncomfortable question, which is which is what polygraphs do do register, right? If they register increase in heart rate, they register, I think skin temperatures like that. And and this and this Galvin this response. But you know what? This actually measures several different things impede ins- resistance. All of these things and it doesn't sparse that out at all. All it does is a needle goes one signal needle or goes the other way. Sure. It tells you nothing. That's what all of these lawsuits have. I'm sorry, I beg to differ what it tells you is how many ancient beings that we're dropped on earth from DC three's from space by the galactic overlord Zeno into volcanoes, right that he then blew up because dropping you into volcano wasn't enough to kill your spirit. He blew up the volcanoes with hydrogen bombs and those souls clinging to you are while you drink too much. That's what it measures. All it makes sense. All it makes us it's the easiest thing in the world when when you break it down like that, it's actually super obvious. Yeah, it's pretty, it's it's pretty funny that the whole the a prolific pope science fiction writer who told the other ga- the guys in the pulp science fiction writing group, including Isaac Asimov said the only way you can really get riches to start a religion. He said that Tizoc asthma, right that later in the nineteen fifties, which was the heyday of pulp. Science fiction. Yeah, and lots of great stories come out of that. But of course it was fertile ground for the idea that technology could solve spiritual problems. Yeah, right. Well, and here's the thing I get I I'm gonna actually give this to this much credence to to l. r. h. I get why you would want a device that could help a therapist or could help someone right determine like the truth of what their patient. Because here's the thing, if you're VERA psychotherapist psychoanalyst and someone's sitting in your chair and they're telling you something hard to know what's true, what's real, right. What's made up. It's hard. It's hard. You've gotta task ahead of you. Right? And if you had, if you had a way, when you ask the question that's going to get to the truth of thing, if you had a way to see the, you know, because a person can mask a lot. Right. We're all very clever. Right? So if you could see, oh my God, his heart rate, despite right or temp. Just went way up or whatever, then just increase. Right. You know, when I asked about his dad, nothing happened hit on Sunday, asked about his mom, you know, x, y, z went crazy. Let's go down that road or whatever, or let's be careful around here. I mean, I could see how that could be very useful tool. If it was real, if it actually was interpreted right, countless years, but many years of testing and and trials proved that that's not the case. This does not help anything, however, is that's only in the world of science in the world of religion. This is the only way to clear yourself of all of those scary. Scary mental pictures. Yeah, that are actually just artifacts of the as you say, the many different criminal Faten that were law Cain owed into your body? Yes, t two hundred trillion years ago or whenever whenever. Was. But yeah, it's. It is really what it really is. An instrument of authority and trust right use, oh my God. This person is knows how to use this thing to get into my deepest darkest secrets. It's right. It's it. How is it different than a tarot deck and a terror reader that way? How's it different than missiles or a good astrologer can can get. I mean, it's a cold read. It is a cold. Read. You sit down with a psychic and they say, oh, you know, tell me about your mother. Yeah. And if you respond, they go down that road and you done, they don't. And these guys just have a needle wiggling at you at them. Right. Which gives it the sort of the air of of science and premature of omega. This is real correct. Right. So it's just it's just a, it's just a a, an advancement of a coterie shell game. It's and it really ended. The device itself has not advanced since the fifties much at all it literally. I mean the basics of it. It looks. A little nicer, but the basics of it are exactly the same thing that they've been using since the fifties. And in fact, the I think the most powerful arm of the church of Scientology there's Ciara which is kind of the clerical class. But I think the most powerful part of the organization is the division of religious technology. And I think that's what David Miscavige was who's now the was the number two now is the the current. I mean, we petite king of Scientology. I, I think that formed shoes kind of a number two. But number two, but he's number one, but he was he's a number one number two in the whole in the whole. He was the head of religious technology. So that's, that's. That's a title you can have. Yeah. In Scientology which should tell you everything you need to know. Right? Because it's not like the us other tech, this is it. This is basically as far as tech goes. So yeah, I don't think there's any other piece of equipment so they have an institute devoted to this. You know, what's crazy is they, they keep releasing Dianetics. And you have to buy it every time it was a scientologist and they changed like a colon, or they write corrected the syntax somewhere and they sell it full price again. Right? How they have not gone. Oh my God, there's a new eater, right? They have, they have. Oh yeah, I see. I mean, the first one was the the. This one is nine million megahertz more accurate, right? Yeah. No, they don't say that. But yeah, I mean that that first patent was in nineteen fifty. And then from then on, here's what's funny. You know, there's this sort of mythos that Hubbard himself invented the eater. He didn't. It was this guy. It was that guy, Matheson decks, but Hubbard from then on every immediate or patent after that had Hubbard's name on it and not the names of the actual guys who who who did the work. But yeah, they kept patenting it. There's the, there's the, you know, the. Hubbard Mark to in the hovered Mark five. And now they're looking on the Mark. I've got a picture here of a Mark, super seven quantum eater home my God. I, you know, the thing is though to be fair to be fair, who gives a fuck for Scientologists they, they don't really sell them, do they. They don't sell them to the. I don't think the public can own them, no, but if you clerical class, but if you rise up to be an an auditor in Scientology you have to buy you gotta buy it, they don't provide it. Nope. Nope, Nope. Nope. Back in the fifties was the first time that they were sued and one of the big sticking points was this God damn e meter because yeah, they were sued by the let me think here. I've got it somewhere the psycho, like some psychological the New Jersey state board of medical examiners decided to sue them dis- who sues Hubbard Dianetic research foundation for practicing. Without a license and and and then in fifty eight, that was in fifty one and fifty eight. The FDA decided to sue them. Yeah, they seized Twenty-one thousand Diana Zien tablets. Yeah, they they believe in taking these huge loads of niacin. Yeah, it was. It was. It was it was just vitamins. It was a bunch of vitamins, but he claimed that that it helped you with radiation. What is it? What are they called? Again, Diana's Zine which is like Dianetics. But it sounds like Diana or he was. He was a branding genius. Yes, he was. And then and then they all in that raid, they seized or maybe this was a different one. Oh, yeah. So. Okay. So in sixty three, this is the one in service love. This phrasing in service of an FDA complaint more than one hundred US marshals and deputized longshoremen. Wow, withdrawn guns what it image rated the founding church of Scientology, you kidding? No. And they, they seized. A bunch of books and booklets and a whole bunch of eater. So several hundred hundred marshals were not enough. Well, it was Marshall's and. Oh my God. What hundred guys? Yeah. Literally there's like seven marshalls, and then they just went to the Dhaka to rough next guys, smashed out doors, put on these badges for a minute. I need you to and take these guns. We're gonna go rough of religion. I've read a ton about Scientology. I've never heard that story. That's great. Yeah. Anyway, they, they were ordered at one point to destroy it by court to destroy all those meters really. And then the church of Scientology appealed because they were because basically the first court basically said, yeah, this is all bullshit. You can't do that right destroyed all. And then they appealed and the circuit court said, no, they're claiming that it's religious. They've never made a claim a medical claim about it, so they got overturned got to keep it and stuff, but you don't get to ever ever ever say that it has any medical value or that it can do. Anything? Yeah, you have to say it can't do anything except spiritually. Right? So that's suddenly the auditors were ministers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that it's, it's just a piece of fucking garbage. But do you have any information about what happened to poor decks, Matt Matheson after I don't probably just became a slave like at? No, he actually, I think he fell out with with Mr. Eller h. and pursued actually for a minute. I know that he pursued he and got patents on on updated versions of e meters. I mean, I think he was basically trying to do what l. h. did. But I mean, right if you don't have that kind of. P.t Barnum savvy at raw sex appeal. Right? How you gonna make it work? Well, I think this is our first many shows in this is our first dipping the tone to Scientology isn't it? Maybe it will not be the last time because there's there's plenty to talk about, oh my God, it's it's a deep well, but it's it's also fairly well covered, which I think is part of why we haven't wanted to also they they're highly legit. So they're not as much as they used to be. Well, now it's all out there. Yeah, I think their their backs are pretty broken at this point praising new, but but yeah, we'll talk about l. r. h. and detail another time because we will. He's, he's just a whole kettle of fish is is a can of worms. The Joseph Smith of the American nineteen fifties. So I'm boy, yeah, what a peach. He was what a peach, so. All right. Well, that's the meter go audit yourself. Yeah. I mean fucking stick. Your dick in a soup can if you want to do the same amount of good, that's the only advice we can give you guys enjoy moving. Mark if I had a shovel, yes, and and a hammer and a desire to to venture into the world of of the supernatural. You know what I might do. I might go to the graveyard of the gods and I would and I'll meet you there. Okay. And this you're going to need, you're gonna need some some hip waiters today. Oh, okay. Watery graph. We're going sub aqua says a watery grave, and I am really, really happy about today's who we're going to dig up today. Oh, I'm excited. This is this is a a person who is forgotten to history for a very God who was forgotten history for very long time. Okay. That became has kind of become very, very important again. Oh exciting. So today we're going to talk about a ver quite an old God. One of the oldest we know of by the name of pitched him. You didn't really do that, did you? I, I did have have. Are you familiar with that? That name at all fish them who pitched him? No, I have no idea. Well, you're gonna find out that you're a little bit more familiar than you. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So this is this is an exciting one. So we we first meet our hero pitched him in what is considered the oldest intact. Long-form story thus far found anywhere in the world. Oh, the epic of Gilgamesh fantastic story. So for those of you who have yet to take your prerequisites for any bachelor. The epic of Gilgamesh is a long form poem from the third. Sumerian dynasty doesn't rhyme very well from the great rivers, a great river region of what is now Iraq. Yeah. So the oldest potato myth. Oh, the middle, the middle of the river of the Petya. Yeah, which is famous for potatoes. Yeah, hippo potatoes. The oldest evidence of the story was a series of clay tablets that were made in about twenty one hundred BC that's many. That's too many years ago. All the way on the other side of the of the common era, right? It's it's on the other side of that that particular arbitrary fence. So, and as we know tradition in almost any place, but certainly near eastern mythology, the story itself likely predates its written form right by many hundreds of years, at least, yeah. So it's safe to say that the epic of Gilgamesh into all of its heroes and gods are approaching five thousand years old from where we sit. Sure, sure. But we would not know which parts of what came from what era, because it as stories do it picked up stuff that's grazes an dropped off some stuff and you know, right. So we may never know the actual origin or location of each of these stories, but as as large kingdoms, like the Samaritans, who then became the Babylonians, did they just kind of get end as the Romans in Egypt? Did you just kind of gathered all together and make a big Gumbo you take your. The ingredients that make the best soup and you go with that gives you the the best explanation for the origin of things and the best way to control the rabble, right? So we meet our friend pitched him for the first time in the story. When our our hero Gilgamesh king of ood Ruch, which is in modern Iraq, is alone in casting about the land mourning the loss of his once enemy turned friend inky do. Okay. First of all, I love the idea of casting about the land. I do it myself on occasion, cast, you know every now and then you gotta go Casten about cast about aimlessly and also I, yeah, I'm very pleased about this. Incan Dinka do fellow, you remember inky do. He was introduced Inca don't, but I, but remind me so key do was a wild man that the gods created like a man of the wilderness that the gods created to challenge Gilgamesh and to keep him from a pressing. The people of rook because he was an unjust leader, these LOKI. Yes. So they fought, yeah, a mighty fight, and then they, they became friends afterwards and then they went on adventures. Sure. They killed the bullet heaven. It was a whole thing and inky doo gets killed for that. And so should supercenter is it was like his best friend ever. So, yeah. So anyway, sad Gilgamesh decides to go on a search for his ancestor and God and Gomez's part God. He's a demagogue, depict him the far away. So pitched him, the faraway lives at the mouths of rivers and has the secret to turn a life which the morning Gilgamesh is suddenly very interested in for obvious reasons. So Gilgamesh finds EDNA pitched him and his wife living at the fabled mouths of rivers. They converse Newton approached him shares his story. Are these the mouths of several rivers or does a place called the mouths of river? It's like a legendary place where all the the mouths of rivers are all of the rivers have share. A single mouth apparently multiple mouse that just approximate somehow. Okay. Fucking story, fancy. It's written. Apparently nobody had time to actually walk all the way to the end of the river. It's wrote out in clay, it's an old story. So you'll get mesh fines pitched him and his wife living at the fabled mouths of rivers. They verse wouldn't epis- shares his story. He was not always a God. He became one through a heroic act of courage in obedience to the ancient gods. Oh, more on that in a second, how very Joseph Smith of him. Oh, it's, it's, it's more like another character you'll see soon enough depict him is unimpressed with Gilgamesh plea for immortal immortality. Any challenges him with this weird test to defy sleep to see if he's worthy of his request immortality. Okay, there's if you can stay awake for x. amount of time make you immortal Gilgamesh is like, I'm I'm a hard ass can totally do it. So of course, wouldn't a pitch them spell him into an immediate and deep sleep. And then I remember reading this in college. I'm like, wow, this is such a weird technique. And then employs one of storytelling, most inventive devices to show the passage of time. Okay. So he instructs, his wife who doesn't have a name so we can already see how critical the story was to to the bible right grafting off of it. So instructions wife to bake a loaf of bread for everyday Gilgamesh is asleep. Okay. So after seven days he wakes him up and Gilgamesh jerks, awake and thinks he's just does offer half a set, but then pitched him, shows him the seven lows of bread in incrementally increasing states of decay. Psych check that mold, mother, fire, check, and mate bitch. So Gilgamesh fails. The test. So as a constellation pitched him tells him about an undersea flower that restores youth cleverly named the this hyphenated the how the old man once again becomes the young man plant. Awesome. I love that. We circle back on one thing real quick. Yeah. The test was stay awake at stay awake for a given amount of time. And the trick. Cast a spell on him. He was never going to give him mortality. That's that is a shitty thing to do, but it's like so much mythology, right? You're given a test that there's no way you can pass. It's yeah, it's like, okay, your test is don't get hit by this baseball bat, and I think it's just a constant expression of the gods. Don't give a fuck and your mortal and you just have to deal with it. Yeah. So at least it wasn't one of those tests where he passes. And then the guy says, no, never mind anyway. So anyway, Gilgamesh goes under the ocean. He gets the flower, but you know, he's, he's going to eat it, but foolishly stops to rest in a spring in the flower gets stolen by snake. So like we were saying, classic of the form his vanity and air against that he should get attornal. Life is rewarded with failure and disappointment. All right. So far so good. But this. Oh, so dumb, because this is not the how the old snake stays and becomes an news, young snake. Again, plant it is old man becomes a young man again, plan snakes, just greedy. Snakes are dumb snakes, super ego, find your own plan. If they were smart, they'd have arms. So you know, this isn't a segment about the Demi God Gilgamesh weirdly, he's one third God. So I'm not sure how that vision works, but whatever you do, your ancestry dot com. You'll you'll figure it out. But rather it's a segment about the once man now fully God Yudina piston. So recall I said, he did something heroic and was rewarded with God hood and obviously attornal life. Yeah, this is about what he did to deserve such rewards. And you know, this is good because I think we can all do this if you want to. Well, I, I'm, I'm going to attempt it after you what it is I'm going to patron patrons of the show will get to see me the tempt what we're about to learn. This is a huge patriarchal. So. Piston was a very pious nobleman of some kind sure in his human life living along the banks of the frady's river so far complete a parallel, your town. Enki the Sumerian. God of water appears to him and tells him that the gods are mad and will summon forth a great flood. Okay. Pitched him is given seven days to build a great arc which she will collect his family, the seat of man, the seat of animals, etc. To survive this annihilation Schorr. You see, Dan dear listeners the so far. It doesn't sound familiar to me at all. Whether you know it or not, we've all met pushed him before. Yeah, we just happen to know him as Noah, right. Ken ham loves this guy. Like Noah pushed him is a faithful man who was warned by the gods to build a floating vault to preserve humanity and zoological life like, no, he builds it exactly to the gods specification. Anki even draws on the ground for him. That's nice. Like Noah. He warns the townsfolk of the. Calamity, like Noah. He sends out a dove to find land like Noah. He emerges from the arc and makes a sacrifice to the gods and his children become the seed corn of all humanity point of order. Yeah. You keep saying the phrase, like Noah. I think what you mean is Noah like Oaten officialdom did all of these? I think you're, I think you're smelling theme here down. So of course, as millions of desperate and truthfully said, Christian apologetic websites are now screaming for me to point out. There are some differences too sure. See pistons arc, say, this is what I'm anxious to see. You do wouldn't officials was a two hundred by two hundred two hundred foot cube. It was the board. It was before. Not a barn on top of giant wooden barge, as we all know is literally was right Hooton epis- them was only adrift for twelve days, not forty, not nearly the perilous forty days and nights, and that drives me crazy as if that's not just fucking assumed right. As you know, the thing that separates the days into countable unit that was that was that was padding for days and nights. We'll know shit. They stopped flooding every night and they went back home to bed. They had a word count that they needed to meet. So super different. Piston was generous and invited all who wanted to come on the ark and many local people took him up. Oh, therefore, in addition to saving species, he was preserving skill and knowledge as well because the blacksmith came came the the the, you know, who are the people in so where Noah was an utter asshole and didn't let any of the desperate people including children on board. Yeah, so no clearly has better also. Piston pissed hymns dove could not find land. So he sent out a raven which did, whereas in order to seem original, the Noah story edited out the raven. I mean, no, super original dove found land. So see, no, no sent out a dove. Originally, the didn't find land and then he did it again just another dove, right. So basically, all he did was the same story, but replace raven second second bird with lacquered with another dove, right? So not even the same narrative universes. Marvel and DC. How could you even how could you even compare them so ridiculous. So most importantly, the fucking clay tablets, tablets, tablets, that the epic of Gilgamesh are on our hard evidence that DNA pistons legend predates the original text of the book of Genesis by a minimum of one thousand years by the most generous scholarship. Okay, route more recent scholarship on the origins of the first books of the bible say it's actually probably closer to fifteen hundred years older than the first books of Genesis. So and because they're liars the story of depict him isn't the only story of a great flood in the biblical zoned predate the big biblical version by many hundreds of years, right? Zia Sudarat is another Samaritan Babylon, Sumerian Babylonian hero who build a ship to survive a world ending flood. So sorry, guys, not super original, but here's where. But if on one. On the less I mean, who doesn't have fun with this, here's and it gets really fun because pitch again, forgotten for thousands of years. Yeah, is a real troublemaker. And this is where I think our listeners are really going to. I really going to give him a second look. Oh, you. I can just see the excitement, bubbling Inya. It's worth doing a little anthropoid Ploger digging here to illustrate how shocking pissed him story has been to the literally Christian heart. Oh, recall that in the broad Protestant world, the concept of Sola scripture was a critical concept. Meaning that truth comes from the bible, not the church that was there where they separated themselves from the Catholic, right? And that everywhere the bible was absolutely one hundred percent literally fucking true, right? Because because they didn't know how to read back then and it was one of four books, right? So. Hearken back a second. The nineteenth century was an incredibly bad one for Christians. When in reality it should have been a golden age. Yeah, they were as happy as clams in a record, breaking high tide oppressing women owning other human beings invading dusky nations, killing half their people and stealing all their shit just as their inherent bible very much approved of them doing. Yeah, there were. They were riding high baby who should have been good times, but dang it. The irrepressible curiosity of the human mind. Something are good Christian forefathers had spent centuries very much trying to repress. Yeah, had reached peak irrepressible by the early nineteenth century, this witchcraft called science could not just be burned or beaten down fast enough, and it started to make life very complicated for biblical literalist. Who at the time was everybody? Yeah, it's it's tough man. It grows on your like a rash, so desire for actual like knowledge. That can be a little knowledge is dangerous thing, fight and stuff since its early codification and long before the sixteenth century council of Trent almost every Christian believe the bible was not only true in a spiritual sense, but was a hundred percent true in every other sense, historically, scientifically, etc. Yeah, most believed it appeared intact as an original, the old test, and then a sequel the New Testament. Literally people like this was delivered on this date. This delivered state as is put together. Boom tree grew out of the ground in a plant called the bible plant and thought that it was not only totally in Falvo infallible, but the oldest story ever since it obviously starts with the invention of people, right? So well, with the invention of light and dark for God's sake and the firmament, yeah, and the vault goes, it goes, it predates rating that was writing probably the most amazing week in history. Yeah, those really strong really strong week. Yeah, everything's slowed down since then. So the emerging fields of geology and paleontology were starting to lay wastes to the absurd calculations of the Irish archbishop. James usher who concluded after carefully reading the Old Testament for clues that the earth was created on October twenty. Third, four. Oh, four BC right. An early geologist declared. He could prove the earth was forty two thousand years old setting off a firestorm of controversy right in eighteen fifty nine Darwin, which by the way he was wrong about that number. He well, he could prove that it was at least that old. He was a little off. He was just a little bit of, but in the wrong direction for the Biblo bible lists warmer warmer. So it eighteen fifty nine Darwin published the origin of the species. And while that did not immediately carpet bomb the Christian world with the full force of what we now understand is the factual theory of evolution by natural selection, right? It was scandalous because it propose something other than God's capricious will in the natural world right. Then as most people know shampoo, Leon finally, cracked the hieroglyphic code via the Rosetta Stone in eighteen twenty four and a couple of pictures weren't just pictures. Now they is more than just pretty pictures as we're in the cartoon was actual meaning. And then a couple of decades after that the for our purposes, even more critically important deciphering of Sumerian cuneiform occurred and the belief that the bible was the oldest story on the earth and historically accurate one was basically fucked, just got decimated. Yeah. So in eighteen seventy two, the discover and translator of the tablets that would become known as the epoch of Gilgamesh. A British guy named George Smith gave a lecture at the society of biblical archaeology, and it was a big deal. All the leading lights of English science and society were in attendance, and he read for them, tablet, eleven of the epic. The story of ood Napolitan in the sensation scandal. The story of today's. Holy Schmidt, Mitch Nim in in the sensation of scale, the followed this once dead. God rose from the waves to create a terrible stir not only was this epic and relatable story thousand years older, at least than Genesis. It was an every important way as we talked about the same fucking stories, nose, art, right? Except let's get real Nepal. Him son doesn't see him naked and bam, black people, right. So Gilgamesh seems to offer no theorizing about the origin ranking by goodness of the races at all, obviously making it deficient relative to the body. So what we now recognize as the muscle polling brain bending, absurdly gymnastic, Christian Christian apologetic of it's not meant to be taken literally right? Or it's metaphor, man. How can you not understand that? Or of course, in looking for logic, bro, you're missing the poetry we have with the whole thing is about breath. It's just literature, man, you gotta see it from a literature point of view. All that shit is post-kyoto mash. Yeah, it is. It is panic driven pressure valves and work arounds from people who in pre Gilgamesh times would have sworn. Every word of the bible was literal truth. If you put a gun to their heads right in all the bible stories, I've research Dan. Yeah, I'd I think you'd probably agree with this. None of the myriad apologetic are as pathetic and laughably terrible as the one surrounding no is stupid floating zoo, right? And they are sadder still when they tried to apologize away or explain away fish them. And his giant cubicle arc. Pardon me? So is box of animals so that you know they're, they're stuck stuck up a flood without irrational paddle to defend this giant wet mess. So let's all give a tip of the hat to Napoleon. Both before we put him back under the water, who was Noah? Fifteen hundred years before Noah was cool, and without whom are Christian friends would have a much easier time defending their basically incoherent indefensible shambles of what was until pretty recently a one hundred percent literally true book well, and is still too many. Let's not forget. There are many people in this modern era in this country of ours who believe one hundred percent that the bible is literally true. Yeah, and that Noah's ark literally happened. Yeah, there's an entire goof-ball giant museum in Kentucky testifying to that very notion. Yeah. And I would say, you know, if if whatever crazy billionaires. Is done giving his money to the GAM cast boys to make their Christian movie parodies right? If you've got some money leftover, give it to us, give it to us. We'll buy the plot of land next to Ken HAM's are making pitch. Fucking twenty story monstrous board cube, black, tar covered arc and laugh at the quivering little plagiarized myth beneath. Yes, I like it. Yeah, so it up. This is this is where we have good ideas on the show. Yep. So doing it hats off to, you know, pitch them now back under the waves you go. Good. Bye bye. Uncle Dan? Yes, sir. We are so fortunate. Are we? Oh, for sure. Okay. If you look at the long March of life on this planet white males in modern America, light sys- gendered, males of above average look, certainly, oh, absolute and almost frightening levels of intelligence. Yeah, we're doing pretty good. We're doing great. We're doing pretty good. And basically worshiped. And in addition to that, are resumes as God ordained right, white people who should obviously be on the supreme court, no matter what no matter what we all your your gay. So you're out because cake is never rape. Anybody. I'm living proof. So we're also fortunate that there are some people who agree with all those things and more and they like to, here's John every week about whatever garbage we've dug up. Yeah, so and and again, we have to be careful because we're almost we're going to be out of episodes because we're almost out of crazy, terrible, awful religious shit from history. Oh, wait. Let me just store and see if there's an, oh, there's plenty of stuff to talk about forever. There's another nine hundred podcasts in there. So anyway, there are people who love to hear our garbage and love to pay us a few shekels for it, and for that we are deeply deeply grateful. Yeah, it is. It is truly remarkable that people are doing this, but but we love it so much and we have to think them. So here we go. This week's beautiful Vokes are Schuyler Stockholm syndrome. Yes, that's great. Apparently we have traumatized them into giving to us. It's right they, they've now at first we. Frightening to them. Now they've learned to trust and depend on us. Right? Yeah. And we'll defend us even to to the police, right and Jennifer, Allen and Jessie. Yes, dear friends will love you guys so much. Thank you so much for contributing indeed. So so these are the people who are giving if you would like if you appreciate the content provided to you and don't want to, you know, and and are glad to know that e meters aren't going to be the saving grace of your life. Yeah. Then you can also become a patron of the show and feel like like a Lord in the feudal times, the only holy technology you need is the patriot button on the how to heretic website, right? So go to their and then click that thing, and then you can. You can sign up, you know, if you go to heretic dot com, you can sign up to be a patron of the show and keep us going for weeks to come. And if you even if you can do that or if you can't, please go to items or any place. There is a five star rating. Just hold the button down. Tell any multiple of five is achieved. Yeah, with fifty nine digits. So give us five star ratings. Mostly what that help helps do is out rhythm. Math thing more people hear about share the love, shared the bullshit. It's the, it's all we can do in this wretched life. Yes, indeed, we love you. Let's move on moving on. Uncle Dan? Yes, sir. Uncle Marquez, surprised for us. Yeah, we you and I do not know what's what's coming. No, I rarely do I, it's, it's we're, we're oblivious people. That's right, but but we're, we're going to dive in. We're going to get back to as the Utahns say our roots are here and go for a how to talk less of milk and appello and appello. Yeah. Well, the best way to go through life is in a constant state of surprise. I find lactose overload. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there's been fellas. Yeah. And again, I'm going to kind of spring this out to on you because I think it's what I wanna do is get some some just honest reactions and thoughts and spark a discussion because this this, how to like many of our how maybe how to drink is not. Here's how you do thing. It's here. It's here's how to begin to think about a thing. Yeah. How to begin to think about how you might go about doing. Thing and we're going to begin to think about a thing. Yeah, and I think this this one is going to have a lot of opinions will vary. Oh, okay. Even opinions within the room. I'll definitely thinks so I'm going to. I'm going to do a little preamble to this how to before. I kind of say what it is. Okay. But I think it's a really important one in recent events out in certainly in our part of the world and even in our own lives then have got me thinking about this a lot. Let me let me jump in here. So earlier this year there was an explosive and very strange recording that was posted on John Lynn's Mormon stories podcast, and on a new site called mormonleaks. Okay. Right. Which is the WikiLeaks of the Mormon room. So without a Julian Assange hopefully. It was made by a woman named McKenna Denson and it was her Clinton's nine conversation with the former head of the Mormon missionary training center in Provo, Utah. This made pretty big splash like national splash and it was guy named Joseph l Bishop. And of course, the MTC is a sacred institution in Mormonism uncle, Doug pass through it. I did. Who knows? Maybe this guy was the head of it, Jessica corn kernel through it. They come out the other end, right, yellow and undigested knowing not a God damn thing and covered with shit except conversational Spanish. So this guy is called Joseph l Bishop was he there when you were there, I kill God. I don't remember anyway, do you know his tenure? I could look it up. So in this tape, McKenna Denson eventually confronts Bishop about the sexual assault and rape. She suffered there in the eighties from him in a specifically prepared basement room under his office that had a bed and a TV VCR with pornographic movies. Yeah, he had little sex dungeon. Yes. This is a guy who's pretty high up in the church. I find his name confusing because he wasn't a Bishop. His name was Bishop. He wasn't a Bishop, but he was. He was considered like that position is a position of some reverence very much. So it's a very, I mean, that's a, that's a career making position in the moment. Yeah. And to be fair. It wasn't a sex dungeon so much as a sex dormitory. It's a sex dorm, my favorites by the way. That's a great movie. Rented your leisure. So what's amazing is he pretty much cops to all of it like once she wants, she gets around to confronting him, right? He's he doesn't Cup to her specifically. He cops to a lot of shit. Yeah. He says, oh, oh. I used to do that. Oh, did I do that to you? I don't remember like you're the one with something, something breasts, and she's like nine flat as a boy always. So he's, he's, he basically rambles out confessions to several sexual assaults. Yeah, yeah, he does that. He's like, were you the redhead who had the mole on her left? No. Okay. Well, that is not a good legal strategy, right? That's the worst way to respond to this. So yeah, he just keeps admitting to things. And again, this was totally legal because Utah's a one-party recording state. Right. And I'll put it up, put a link to the Mormon stories podcast where this recording is on. If you have the time in the interest. It is one of the weirdest most fascinating things I've ever heard on tape because it's also horrifying. It's horrifying fan. You should go into it with a sort of blanket trigger warning. The fact that he doesn't know this is coming and then he completely cops to it is one of the strangest things I've ever I've ever heard. Yeah. So after it was made public, the Mormon church did what any loving tenderhearted disciple of Christ would do they sick there, high-powered law firm honor and tried to discredit slander her in every conceivable way. Right. Exactly. Despite her having a straight up admission on tape. So, I mean, the problem isn't. Him. Obviously, the problem is our right. She's adjustable. She's as yeah. Did you know that she? She's not even a very good Mormon. Yes, she's divorced. She sir. Marriage fell apart, so so we can't believe anything he said on the tape. Yeah, I love that. When the perpetrators of abuse use the, you know, the symptoms of abuse in follow on life to discredit the people of abuse, right? You know what I mean? Like they've, they haven't been able to hold a marriage together. How could I have sexually assaulted her? They struggle in relationships. How can we trust these authority figures? How can we trust the recordings made by these people? I'm sure the moment that tape went went live. There was a massive. We transfer from the Catholic church, the Mormon church. Here's what you do. So anyway, the the statute for criminal charges Lon long since expired official Mormon. Mormon has decided to treat her like a cockroach. And so just about a week ago or so McKenna Denson with the help of a puckish truck. Maker called new name, Noah. Oh, decided to take no action who we know. So they went to Joseph, l bishops, and of course he's a Mormon authority. So we must have a middle initial, right? They went to his neighborhood church in Arizona on the one Sunday a month called fast and testimony. Just just he is still in his position of thirty. No, no bucket because he was just a hapless old man. Okay. Okay. When you hit a certain rank, your middle initial is assumed, right? Exactly. And, and these people. So these people went to a different state traveled. She and her and and and some compatriots traveled to a church in a different state on what's called fast and testimony meeting, which is Mormon, open mic open mic. So back in the day we pass Mike's around. But now you walk up to the pulpit in front of the whole room, an anybody in visitors are welcome under very tightly controlled circumstances. And usually you can go up and bear your testimony about the truth of the gospel gospel or Tele faith affirming, yeah, story about America with three attornal Mayan peasants. So while new name, Noah was secretly taping and somebody else I think there were, I think three p. to somebody sees Mike, Mike, Norton's camera. Yeah, anyway, McKenna Denson got up and spoke, and we'll put. We'll put a link to this video in the show notes, and it's very, very interesting. She confronts. She basically talked about your protecting a rapist to in this ward who's in this church? Yeah, because she hasn't been able to get any kind of relief or even a dialogue with the church about what happened. So that's that. That's that story. Another time this very brave child used her three minutes at the Mike to come out as gay at fast and testimony meeting in front of her entire church community kid is twelve or was yeah, which for listeners. Is. If she had gotten up there and cut a puppy into pieces would have been less shocking to that congregation understand the the decorum. Yeah. The ads, the tedium and decorum of a Mormon church service is so impenetrable. Yeah, that if if you're like to be present for any of these things, I'm surprised the pews survived with the amount of, but puckering happen. Yeah. Clinch the pews into sawdust, right. But how fucking medal is this kid? He's twelve. And again, Dan, did the the unwritten rules about around every moment Mormonism right? So strict. But you know, twelve year old as I was a twelve year old gay kid, and I was not. Remotely in the galaxy, where there was enough courage for me to muster to have done a thin like that. So right. You know, they cut her off of course, which they do and refusing to recognize the incredible courage of this child. So kudos to her just a little point of order, there's the microphone has a turnoff switch next to the Bishop, the Bishop in his chair in his chair. Flip a switch, Kirk. Yeah, can turn off the microphone in the case of McKenna Denson there's always a couple of men who may decide to put their hands on her without permission. Yeah, which it is interesting. Mormon. Men are so taught a that. They're that they're thority is real. Yeah, the it wouldn't. What's funny is the, you know, we now are in a time when a man just manhandling and what an appropriate phrase a woman. Is not okay, but these guys that wouldn't even occur to them now to grab a one, the fact that she was talking about nonconsensual contact. Right? Just get up and go. Hang grabber. Yeah, like you will watch the tape. You will. Yeah. You are salting me. Yeah. Like an unruly drunk at a bar and any by any modern legal standard. I would agree that they were physically assaulted. They didn't beat her up. No, they grabbed her so. So other people have used this once monthly open mic event to bring up things Mormons, don't wanna discuss coming out as a kid, you know, sexual assault, a burning topic these days is the practice of face to face interviews between adult Mormon, lay clergy and teen and preteen kids in these in worthiness interviews that often involve sexually explicit interogations what can be boiled down to as masturbation shaming. Also, Mormon bishops are chosen out of the community to serve a few years and zero training, counseling, pediatrics, etc. Etcetera. It's just old creepers, asking twelve year old children what they fantasize about. So being required to ask children what they're but there's no limit on what they can ask, really. Right. But there are explicit rules about you have to ask you can't demure from asking about masturbation. No, right. So, you know, adult survivors of this practice have described lives of crippling shame, suicide attempt self Atri, etcetera, etcetera, blah, blah, blah. So just same old. Same old, right. And and a couple of those guys have stood up in front. Again, they've been tape standing up fast and testimony meeting and using that using that microphone in that audience to make a statement, right. So in other way, this particular topic is being challenged. That child interviews is by a guy called Sam Yang, who's an active Mormon and a former Bishop himself who's conducted hunger, strike outside of Mormon, headquarters in Salt Lake City, challenging the church leadership to come meet with him about ending this dangerous and useless practice naturally refused. And have instead summoned him to a hearing for excommunication. So that's nice. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, basically the the biggest sin you can commit as a Mormon and as as a member of almost any religion is to challenge the authority of the people who are in charge of that religion, it's far worse than than child rape or like, yeah, talking to a kid about their masturbation is nothing right? But confronting that practice is a big deal. As we have discussed in graphic detail in the show on past shows shooting, the messenger is very much a Mormon article, faith. So let's not let lastly, let's let's revisit the troublemaker. I mentioned earlier, new name, Noah. Who you doc sterler? Well, he's revealed himself. He has revealed himself as Mike Norton, a former Mormon himself. Mike became disillusioned with Mormonism for a lot of reasons. But as he wants explained to Doug and I really hit when he sat down with several official versions of the never changing totally perfect and inherent word of God, the book of Mormon and was staggered by the major differences between the versions, right. So, and Mike, if you're listening, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but I it seems like some of the timing when you started doing this might have had something to do with mitt Romney's run for the presidency. But Mike made it his mission to puncture the sanctimonious, Mormon bubble of secrecy that are the sacred Mormon temple rituals. Right? Mike, pretty relentless character. He figured out the gaping. Paul's of brash say he's quite a character and he figured out the gaping weaknesses in the Mormon temple security faked up an ID or two with a ruler and a pencil and. Cleverly hiding his iphone in a necktie or a book he managed to film or an oxygen tank. Wait, let's not reveal. All right. But anyway, he, he just did a very low tech approach to this end and just walked right into the temple. He's pretty much filmed all of the rituals. They're all these put them all onto YouTube. So if you're interested in boring yourself to tears, you can actually see the tardy of the Mormon temple rich, prepare to be disappointed. Although there are these moments of like Kuku bananas, right? Like sort of built into it. So you have to get you have to Wade through seventy minutes. Like it's my God stop. It's one minute of all that God what it's eighty percent banality and then it's like twenty percent super weirdness. That is mostly a bunch of grown. People dressed as comedic bakers in children's television show. Doing it was spit frontier, Taichi. Oh, really? He'll to that. So that's kind of Mike's black op stuff. As Dan says, if you're interested, just go to YouTube type in new name. No other must be. I don't know how many videos he's got up by now. Oh golly. And and you know what? Salinas is the worst thing they can do is charge him with misdemeanor trespassing, right? But he does drive more than up a Rampton for sure. So I only I bring up all these different people. Because these are several people who've been wronged or have a legitimate beef with the Mormon church. Each is used different methods to challenge confront this hugely powerful monolithic institution in its own space, kind of judo using its own kind of methodology against it. So that is going to lead into what I think is a larger discussion. And I've only I know people have been doing this kind of thing in the Jehovah's Witness universe. I know they've been doing in against some in Catholicism against other institutions that refuse to be held to account for their crimes. So the how to I want to delve into today. And I think this is where opinions may vary is how to went to if to confront your church, your church, how how, when is it appropriate? Is it appropriate? And you know, I think I think what McKenna, in my opinion, what McKenna Denson did. Is one hundred percent appropriate. I well. You, it's tricky. Yeah, this whole thing is so it's it's a quagmire. And and and I think that approp- propriety may need some definition because what we're talking about is, I don't know. I think we need to get to what is your goal? Yes. And this is why. If I may ask the page questions specifically, why I didn't want page here because he would just say, what's your goal? Be? Nice don't right. I would say be nice, right? But here's what I, here's where I'm coming from with this is it's, you know, we have grown up in this monoculture of Mormonism and still kind of live contend with it's over. It's overly large presence in our lives all the time in the public sphere. My my thinking about it is. Re religion in America, specially Christianity, which is very persecuted. We all know that does not recognize that any of the rest of us have safe-space, right? It doesn't Reckitt sees my bedroom as a gay man as their political territory, right. It sees a our schools as absolutely their political territory. It sees every woman's uterus right now. It sees the the physical body of every girl and woman as their political territory. I don't know why they get a place where we don't get to go. And I agree with that. Yeah, I think that that there's nothing sacred about the sacred in that. I don't think they'll claim that they're off limits in terms of in terms of being challenged challenged because you know, you're challenging their their most deeply held sacred beliefs, deeply precious and and to some extent, like I. I think that there are there are reasons to challenge them that are valid reasons that are less valid, of course, and some people want to go after them for something that's just stupid. And it's like, what? I don't even know what you're doing. Right. She Denson. Yeah, clearly not only. I mean, she's not seeking. You know a settlement from the church for herself. I don't think I think she knows that. I think the ship has sailed. Oh, actually, no. She's got a lawsuit in in place. I'm wrong. She has a lawsuit. That's not about she can't sue the guy because the statute of limitations there, but it's the criminal statute has. He can't be tried in a criminal, but civilly she can sue the church because the church put him forward as as a safe Representative of them. And so, and that's fair. And I think also I it came out I can't this, but it came out that maybe she's she's part of a group that's trying to shoot a documentary about abuses within the church and fair game, and there's a, you know, this is publicity for her. Yeah. So I mean, all of that says to me, yeah, get in there and and but it is also she was technically like probably trespassing maybe or could be said to be, I would say in the broadest visitors are welcome. Says, so the broadest possible strokes you, this is a free country. Free speech is as close to a, you know, religious, right? You know what I made for our country. You have every right to confront people. You have every right if you're willing to suffer the consequences. I don't think it shirt service is any more protected or safe or sacred than city council meeting. Then a Senate hearing that a campaign event. I mean, I think if a church service is open to the public, of course, has a church could just say, you know what? This is all of us, but we're not letting again that's saying that they get to make a rule that that they're protected when they decide they're protected, and they've decided that none of the rest of us have protection. A rule about their building. You can't come into my building. We'll be leaving aside for second. I just think that that it bears mentioning that this is a free country. And if you wanna go into service or you want to confront someone on the street or you wanted, you're willing to suffer the consequences of misdemeanor trespassing charge, go, you know, you can go do that thing. Just like code pink does at Senate hearings. And you know what I mean? Like I think that to to separate those things a little subtle civil disobedience disobedience. So, but but in in the case of this, this woman, you know, and then we'll get into this. But I think she was. She was sexually assaulted his rape, but she has a grievance. Yeah. If if I I was not sexually assaulted. I just tattoo shitty twenty two years of Mormonism. Right. I don't feel compelled to go into one of their testimony means I don't feel like a grievance that needs to be addressed. I try and put myself in her shoes and be like. You're going to hear me, you sons a bitches. You're going to hear me. Yeah. I mean, I think that there are a lot of people and apparently this has been blowing up on on x. Mormon, read it pages and, and you know, we need to make this about more than just a Mormonism. But right, you know, we, we're just using this as a as a entry points, right? Exactly. But there are a lot of people who have been filming themselves going up because Mormonism is that has that unique thing where every month they have that open mic night. Yeah, n people go up and you get the Mike and people have been going up and saying, you know what? I found out a bunch of disturbing things about this church. I feel lied to. Yeah, and I feel like this isn't an I feel. And so even if they don't have a, you know, a, they weren't assaulted. They weren't raped. They weren't treated. You may not have even been maltreated her personally a flitted by. There are people who are doing this just to say, I feel lied to our. I feel like this church this, I, I now know fairly conclusively that this church isn't true. Yeah, yeah. And I think you know that I guess to me there is a question of of of what is your goal. I agree with that because what you need to a look out for your own. Sanctity of mind and your own your, you know you need, you need to be, you need to treat yourself well, and so if your goal is to is to get them and you know you become you, you get trapped in. I think I think the aggressive against your former church thing is, is a trap for your own psyche or is dangerous for your psyche. I think you can get you can get into a pattern where you're not looking out your where you you're more obsessed with getting them than you are taking care of you. But I think I think it's not. I think that oversimplifies that getting them is it's not necessarily revenge. I think in in, I'm attributing some some motivations to McKenna Denson and I'm certainly see what I certainly see what's happening with Sam young, who's having the hunger strike. Yeah, he's trying to prevent further harm, right. And I think she part of her motivation may be doing the same thing. Yeah, I think that's an incredibly appropriate. There's that open mic. Yep, there's the sign that says visitors. Yeah. And if you don't have you know if your member of a church that doesn't have an open, Mike, you know, standing outside that church with a sign or just, you know, whatever it is you feel like your protests like, however it ends up looking. That's what we're talking about here. And I think I mean, we've talked about this on the show many times, but leaving religion is an intensely personal journey. Yes, it's different for everybody. My own, you know, journey was part of it was when I realized how silly all of these beliefs were. I was embarrassed that I had believed them and I didn't wanna be around Mormons, I didn't so, but other people feel like they need to have a parting shot or they need to, they need to be heard or confront the people that have lied to them or mistreated them. I think whatever that part of your journey is for you if you need to. If you need to stand up to the person face to face, then I think you should. Yeah, I don't. Agree with you. And I wanna be clear about that. I think that for some people that could be a very important thing for, right. I don't think you can expect good results. I, I don't think you can. I agree. I don't think you can, but I think oftentimes it's, it's coming out of the closet. It's declaring yourself, right? I think oftentimes it is incredibly important that you have that steppingstone of saying this community that I was part of that I gave so much to that. Maybe I got something from but gave so much to have. Now. I'm now in this space where I don't believe it's true. I have been hurt or I am. You know you personally person have caused me harm that if you don't have that confrontation or at least speaking your truth, that may be something that you just carry too long and too unhealthily. Yeah. And I think what I'm getting at is do it if you want to do that if you've if it feels important to you to do that, just remember that you're doing it for you, right? You're not doing it to change them. Because changing them because you're not going to know or you might, but like if but, but this needs to be about you'd doing it for you. Your point is is very valid. You're not going to change a new, it's unlikely. Yeah, that especially when you confront someone in their environment that you're gonna change their minds. I mean, you could argue that maybe you lay some doubt in other people's minds, but it's unlikely you'll have a good outcome. You will burn some bridges. You'll probably sour some relationships and you have to consider that you have to consider that. Yeah, if you're willing for those bridges to burn the do your thing. Yeah. Remember they're not going to be there anymore. Right. Well, and I'm just saying like, and there will be an emotional cost to to doing it and social costs to to this confrontation. So don't go in blindly to that thing for thinking that you singing that you're going to walk out of there. Just feeling nothing but empowerment. Right? Because there's going to be this negative side to it will be complicated. It will be complicated and will be messy and somebody will say something hurtful. And you know there's going to be a lot of shit that's going to go down, but you know, there's okay. There's. There's confronting directly. The person who may have been that UC as symbolizing all the harm that was done to the person that literally costs you harm. Right? A guy got up in in another fast and testimony meeting and said, you know, laid out his Mormon Boniface days and then began to talk about things. Sorry, non Mormon. Listeners like the book of Abraham and where the doubts began to kind of come into him. He wasn't a personal victim of an event. Right? But he wanted to express as you were saying earlier, some of the doubts now he was told to leave, right? But I think that may be for a lot of people sitting in that room that may be the first time they heard any of that. Yeah, that's that's. That's true. And Mormons, of course, are taught to be missionaries all their lives. Maybe he was just saying, now I feel like I have something else to share with you right saying that's wrong, but I think that's where this bubble that allows this thing to be such an institution that causes harm without. Hearing about it? Yeah, it's okay to Pierce that I think it's okay to Pierce that bubble. I think so too. I think the thing that is important most important to me in all of this is the individual's personal happiness and health. Is this going to help you get closer to that goal? Because because look, if you're goal is to drop a poison pill in the well and try and make sure and try and explode, religion, guess what? What's going to happen? You're not gonna do it. So so what you need to do is ask yourself, what helps you, what's good for you, what you know what and and be real with yourself about like what may what consequences may happen? Right. And there's many other forms of confrontation. Obviously, you know, you could do everything from standing up and putting a hold over your head and sacra meeting on Weiss at hood. We're just occurred to me or you can write a letter. You can phone, you can phone someone up and tell them this thing. You wanna tell them, you can go visit them. There's a million ways you can. You can express that confrontation. So that brings brings me to a point that that to the personal where Dan and I both in the recent months have attended funerals for young people that should not have died. All right. And I will be very, very careful in the details I give. So I don't expose anybody for any reason, but you attended Mormon. One funerals are very classic, especially if young, especially suicides classic for painting a picture of a person that you don't don't recognize. Yeah, not honoring the person that died or or even not even, you know, I mean the the, the classic Mormon thing is barely mentioned the person yet and just about Jesus about talk about the church the whole time. So I attended a non Mormon Christian service, someone who died very, very terribly. It was not a suicide and. The person conducting the service took some. Incredibly agreed liberties. As far as I'm concerned with claiming to know things about the last moments of this person's life that were, of course impossible to claim and using it to sell Jesus at the end of it. Right. So, of course, the last thing I was going to stand up at a funeral and say, you stop right Stor. Right? That I think we can make the editor aerial position of this podcast. Don't interrupt a funeral for your comfort nation, right? It wasn't my. I knew I was going to a Christian. I might do that at Mark's funeral, but that's my business. I mean, and and maybe I should amend suicide say no says no funeral. I should've been that to say that like if things are so out of hand leave. Well, I mean, like for instance, recently during Aretha Franklin's funeral, yes, there was one preacher who was saying things like black lives, don't matter as long as black people are killing each other and none other than Stevie Wonder. Himself yelled out black lives matter, like interrupted a funeral because something was going so agreed Disley awry. And and Aretha Franklin's family was horrified by this eulogised is that the eulogise that was kind of groping Arianna Granada guy. Lots of fun shit happened at that funeral. Wow. But like, yeah, I can interrupt a funeral at something horribly agree or your Stevie Wonder or your. So let me tell you I was pretty close at this funeral even though most of the people there had no idea who I was, but I was in, I was in agony. I was very, very, very sad and hurt, and this was a person I was close to, you know, and and to see what was the liberties that were taken. It was so fucking agreed that I didn't sleep for like three nights after that. So I decided, okay, I got write this guy in Email. Yeah. So the way I challenged what was going on there was I had a one on one conversation, you know, Email exchange with this person. I was pretty strident in my tone. I tried to be the lowest level of anger I could be, but I'm still in a very grieving space. And so I just laid out what I thought where I thought a beautiful otherwise, beautiful service went completely off the rails into a heart, high pressure sales event. And and so we had a back and forth. I'm not sure what will come of it. Here's what I would say Michael is given that a it was it was speaking my truth. Yeah, that I'm not willing to put up with that shit, which was very abusive taking advantage of a bunch of grieving people stuck in space who were obviously for proprieties reasons unable to say anything right? And that if at if nothing else the next time he gets up to do something like that, he'll hesitate, right. Might think twice might think twice and that was the goal is just pushed back because I think that was abusive. Think it was bullying, and I think it was taking advantage of the death of a very beloved person to do something that was very crass. Yeah, and very grotesque. So in my little way, I didn't do it publicly. This is the most public. I've been about it and nobody knows what I'm talking about in my in my little way I pushed back and I think that people should fucking here that, yeah, I think I, yeah, I, I agree with you, and I think that especially in that, and frankly, if he had been a dick about it, maybe we would have made it public. You know what I mean? You know he did all the Christian. He did all the things Christians do as he immediately became the victim. He ran to the fainting couch. She did all that stuff now, but he wasn't really dick about it. Yeah, any and and you know, I read some of that exchange. You send it. And I, I thought it was. I thought he did actually like take some of it to heart, and it sounded sounded like he was actually like considered what you had to say. Yeah. Best case scenario? Yeah, I do think to your point uncle Mark is that he had not had criticism in that spear probably his entire life. He was kind of shocked. He's an older that he had hurt somebody bad yelp review, and I don't think he was ready for that. And I think so. I think that maybe that's a critical point too, is that some of these spaces have been so sanctified socially grant that they've never even heard that they could possibly be doing wrong. So it may be that like like bad ass confrontation isn't what's needed. Just a gentle nudge could be shocking to them. Right. Just just just saying to them, you know that actually hurt me, right? You know that don't you and they may not right, that's which is, which is one of the sort of shocking things about. I will give him credit that I think I don't think he's a bad person at all. Right. I think he went there with nothing, but good intentions and love in his heart, but in the vernacular of the Christianity that he's been part of all his life, he couldn't imagine. Right deciding to sell Jesus like a set of steak knives or timeshare was at a funeral right was was anything but glorious right. To it. And that's, that's thing is is in our in our civic life, we are encouraged to call your Senator, call your Representative, make your voice heard you. And I don't think that any religious institution or person deserves any more protection or sanctuary than we give to our political world. Right? So if I think you have every right to to make your voice or they don't deserve peace, if peace is not what they deserve, right. I mean they and they only deserve, you know, when I say safe-space everything I'm talking about right now, I think is the only method is total violence. Not to cause not to cause physical harm or property damage of, you know or anything like that. It is simply to use the the brains. God gave us to challenge them in a space that they're not willing to give us and let me just super, super fine point. I just wanna make a little correction. I wasn't mad because it was a Christian service or he was talking about Jesus. I was mad that he used the incident that the moment of incredibly violent death. As the vehicle through which to sell that that's what was disturbing. If I was ready to send Christian songs, I was ready to bow my head in prayer atheist, and I knew what I was going into Iraq. So I'm not saying that going to a religious funeral or service is in of itself an insult to you, right? You're going there to honor somebody to remember somebody to show love and support for a community or family, and you said outside of that moment? It was a, it was a pretty service. It was, you know it was. I mean, it was his family was amazing. And right friends spoke remaining. Right? And I was so thrilled to be part of that and to see a crowded room for this person that so many people clearly loved then a ghoul swooped in just to. Yeah, yeah. And so so I think, yeah, I think one of the morals of that story is that. A little bit of pushback, right? They're not used to it. And like you said, a tiny nudge, just one Email that's not even a razor just say, hey, man, that was my Grandpa's funeral. His favorite song was ax, you wouldn't let his granddaughters play that song because it's not a Mormon song, right? Yeah, I fucked up and I don't appreciate you have a bad experience in a restaurant. You write a review online. You want it. You have issue that matters to you. Call your Senator. Why does religion get a dispensation right from that? That's all they don't pay taxes for for the trait on the corner in the public sphere, where the rest of us pay taxes to speak our minds, but they demand that they get to stand on that Creighton speak their minds. I think they, it's ok, yeah, they're putting ideas out into the public square. Dare Dirk, you know, they are contributing to the to the the national dialogue, they they're not immune their combativeness from the from the consequence. Of that or from the the, you know what happens they're willing to they're willing combatants in the culture war. They don't get to then say all too willing. This is my secret fort, no, no girls allowed. You can't come in here. We'll launch some submissive out, but I can throw crab apples at you from in here. So anyway, that's that's my take on it. I'm obviously have a little bit militant sensibility. Dan, my my, I think just don't be an asshole, but being I think that's completely fine. Speak your mind. Make your mind, speak your truth and make sure that there's if nothing else you plant that tiny kernel hesitation. Gosh, maybe I shouldn't be addict over somebody's coffin. And remember that we on this side of the aisle, don't use bombs for any of this. Yep, we don't. And I mean, not like don't be this isn't our, yeah, don't burn. Shit, don't vandalize shit. Don't you know use the peaceful tools that we all have available to us because here's what here's what will happen is is especially in this country, Christians the most powerful taken in mass, the most powerful group in this country already have a persecution complex. If you do something that is actually could be mistaken in some way, as persecuting them destroying property, painting a swastika on something, putting your finger in their chest is on the scale watching the same as a thousand burned abortion clinics, right? So saying something mean as enough, that's enough persecuted. That's enough, but at least you can say something me, at least that's communication. Yeah. So anyway, that's my take on it. All right. Well, there you go. I think I think that's volley one. In a conversation that made the may end up happening more later pipe in and let us know, you know, send us an Email or something. Let us know if your opinion on it or if you've done this in an artful or or inartful way. Yeah, I'd love to hear about it. Yeah. All right. Let's let's call it good there and move on. Yeah. Yeah, moving on. Well friends. That's it for this week show. Yes. If you'd like to suggest a better shape for boats to carry all of mankind's future and the animals, please send us an Email how to add how to heretic dot com. Or if you got a cannon, both your hands and it's a little hard to sent an Email, you can leave us voicemails at nine, three eight how to which is nine three eight, four, six, nine, eight. Six were also on Twitter at how to heretic. And of course, our Laureus Facebook page where you can tell us also sorts ship and also you can sign up to to come to the meet up. Yep, please come to meet up to see your faces. Don't forget about that. Thanks so much. Again, once more to our patrons and thanks to Cody Layton who you'll meet at the media meet up for editing show. Yes, and thank all of y'all dear friends for tune in my friends by.
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