18 Burst results for "Jeff Skilling"

"jeff skilling" Discussed on American Scandal

American Scandal

01:38 min | Last month

"jeff skilling" Discussed on American Scandal

"After nine am in early december sherron. Watkins arrived at enron headquarters. She squeezes past local news. Crews as they set up tripods she takes home to gaze. The various cameras trained on reporters. Standing patiently with their microphones in hand. Ready to go live walking. Shakes her head. She never thought she'd lived to see the day. When the downfall of a corporation would attract the same level of coverage as a natural disaster she and hers and ron's main lobby. She expected a grim scene but nothing could have prepared her for this shell shocked former. Employees had towards the doors in a mass exodus their personal effects piled into cardboard boxes. Any of them have put their boxes on the seats of eight hundred dollar office chairs. They're wheeling out like shopping carts. Men and women weep openly the layoffs have begun walk walking systems. Sure where to go what to do or who to talk to. She's waiting for the elevator. When a man approaches she recognizes him. I can't remember from where as they step into the elevator. He reminds her that. He's one of the company's lawyers now that enron is bankrupt. He says with a smirk. It's lawyers are the only ones with job. Security walk ins wonders. Exactly what that means for her as the doors open to her floor. He tells her not to worry her job safe for another month at least walk ins asks. Why man raises his eyebrows. As if he's just been asked the dumbest question in the world and ron still needs her. He says she'll probably be asked to appear in court as lawsuits against enron begin to land in the coming weeks after all. You're the one who tried to warn. Lay the company was in danger right. You're famous

Jeff skilling Skilling skilling new york city federal bureau of investigatio jeffrey paul mr skilling enron
"jeff skilling" Discussed on The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

05:59 min | 1 year ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

"The piece I wrote was shell musk's flaws and show. How always a truth teller he can. can be a bully who is an a liar and someone who is going to line his own pocket and I. Think those are all valuable facts to know as we think about Tesla, bigger picture, but you could also make the contrary argument that maybe those flaws don't matter, and so in the broader sense, maybe the peace will prove to be wrong because musk will be everything. Has Believers say he is both true? You have somebody that does. I'm trying I'm struggling to think of an example of somebody who's exceptional at anything. That doesn't also have incredible flaws in other areas and I'm not saying this with you, but just in general like we look at these these very exceptional people, and often were looking at one aspect of their life, or they might be exceptional, and the rest of their life could be falling apart right so they're not maybe not well rounded individuals in that sense. That's so interesting Jeff Skilling used to say that he liked people. People with spikes and what he meant by that was that he didn't like well rounded genial average people. He likes people with a really exceptional characteristic that defined them, and that may come at the expense of other characteristics, and I think we took that when we wrote smartest guys as a bad thing, but your question makes me think about that and think. Maybe he was right. Maybe there is something to be said about that. But maybe as you think about people in in a business context, the trick is which flaws matter, right? So in the case of Elon Musk doesn't matter that he doesn't always tell. The truth doesn't matter that he's a bully. I'm not sure it would be really interesting to try to think through what flaws matter. Just what particular right? Thinking locally here is I have friends who are incredibly successful. But if you told them to drive their kids to school, they'd be like. Where's the school? I have no idea right so they're not necessarily. This wall rounded family person. but they are incredibly successful at what they do in part because they have this relentless focus on on that to the cost if you will Yes, but I think re relentless focus on one thing to the exclusion of other things, the different argument than a character flaw right that said we we all have character flaws, and sometimes I've thought just a little bit analogous to the visionary and fraudster argument that life sometimes turns on whether you end up in a situation in which particular flaws are on full display. Right because we we all have them and some of us just get lucky and. And our flaws aren't pulled out. Highlighted at other people just stumbled limelight. Other people just stumble into situations where their flaws become the pivot on which all else turns, but we're all flawed right, but in the in the context of a business as you look back as a CEO's character, our leaders character what flaws matter to the success of the enterprise, in which which ones don't come back to that question. I'm going to actually pose that on you, but. I was thinking as you were saying that. Maybe that's not a character felt. Maybe it is right like if you're not there for your partner, or you're not a good father. Is that or mother or is not an aspect of character Steve Jobs would provide that right? Could you be the exception we draw rule from this, or is this say he could be an part of part of what's gone wrong. In modern Silicon Valley is that. That everybody believes is the rule of right, so all sorts of character flaws have become forgivable, because hey, look, Steve Jobs and look what he did and flaws of almost become a good thing, because that those sorta towards your philosophy, a marker of brilliant strikes. You can't possibly really good unless you're really suck and all these other ways. That's fascinating. I hadn't even thought of it in that way. Right like you can't be exceptional unless you. Talk to me, but some of the flaws that. We think don't matter if you're running a business so I think people tend to see this intellectual charisma or the ability to intimidate others around you into belief. As a good thing because we all follow that kind of blindly, but I think that's probably not a good thing. At least if you believe that a collaborative environment and being able to second guess and question, and here doubts is what makes for a better outcome at the end of the day, then that personality type would be utterly antithetical to inspiring the kind of collaborative open environment that we all say we want yet, so there's. There's a hypocrisy in that or a conflict of the in in that we all say we want this collaborative environment, and yet we tend to follow people who don't foster that because their own cult of personality is so strong. Do you get more skeptical as you dive into something when you see somebody with a strong called personnel, I do I do just because I've seen it in so many cases where it hasn't ended well. Are the cases where a dozen real well Steve, jobs right? That's total cult of personality. Maybe again. Maybe it comes back to your argument about I'm trying to think of another one there I'm trying to think of another one, too. I'm sure there are others wasn't the founder of Genentech. Right I'm just blanking on his name, I think he had a cult of personality I think. Phil Knight Phil Knight at Nike, who arguably Belsen, incredibly successful business I think he had something of a cult of personality I think Jamie diamond does. And I think he is a fantastic CEO but I don't think. I think I guess it's different I. Don't think from what I've seen of Jamie diamond. He does actually foster an environment in which people ask questions and push back and are quite an are quite are quite open, so maybe that's what it what it hinges on other other flaws in people that get you Get Your Business. Look. You're writing side excited where you're like Oh. This is getting more and more interesting other than this cult of personality well, certainly, when people are obsessed with their their company stock price right, but that's an obvious one, but that relentless.

Steve Jobs Elon Musk CEO Jamie diamond Phil Knight Jeff Skilling Tesla Silicon Valley Nike partner Genentech Belsen founder
"jeff skilling" Discussed on The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

06:06 min | 1 year ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

"American Apple Pie thing about stocks rising and believe such that the you you would think in a rational world. It would be exactly as you said somebody who has a skeptical view. That view would be just as welcome as somebody who believes, but it's not. There's this idea that shortsellers are bad people, somehow because they might profit if something fails and that was true back in the day when I wrote about Enron even journalists said to me. Will you took a tip from short seller? How could you do that I I thought everybody's. Everybody's biased. Company management is biased. The analyst who is a buy rating on the stock is biased if for no other reason than confirmation bias, right and portfolio managers who owned The stock biased and so yes, shortsellers bias tube. Everyone is but there is still this in you. Even see it on twitter today in the Tesla battle that somehow shortsellers are less valid. Human beings are their point of view is inherently evil, because they they don't believe in the company direct line from that to sort of like people getting hurt or losing money, whereas the opposite is not equally true. Right or you're selling something that might hurt somebody in the future, but it's not as visible. It's not as tangible. Although. Counter argument would be that a rally overvalued company who stock eventually collapses under its own weight is going to hurt a lot of people when they happen 's. So why not have the view out there? So that doesn't happen and then catch up. Innocent people in that in that plunge taught me a little bit more about this bias towards belief that we have. How does that affect people inside? The corporation is is why we don't have more whistle blower I think it does I've I've often thought about this because. I left an investment banking job and went to Fortune and I guess ninety five and I thought well, if I had gone to an executive recruiter, and they had said there's this great energy trading company down in Houston Texas what about a job there and fight ended up at Enron what I've been whistle blower, or would I have been a believer and I like to think the former, but I suspect the truth is probably the latter, because I think I think culture is so so important, and so if you're inside a company and your pay depends on that company. That's the Great Upton Sinclair. Quote, right. We can never tell him. Anything of his wallet depends on him. Not hearing it. Something like that. If you're inside a company and e-, everybody else believes and your economic wellbeing is dependent on the company doing well and the stock doing well the idea that you're going to be able to again shift your perspective and step outside that and be able to see something that isn't in your interest to see I think that's beyond most of us. There's a reason that whistle blowers tend to be outsiders right. That's a really interesting observation. You also covered valiant. Talk to me about the differences between valiant Enron can talk when I start with a similarities, please gene so I think the way in which they're most similar is not super obvious, because most people think of Enron as a giant fraud right, but it, but it really wasn't. Most of what Enron did was actually perfectly legal, so I I coined. This term wants which I love, which is illegal fraud, and that's what what Enron was. Because most of the transactions they engaged in even the ones that appeared to be the most problematic, actually met the letter of the law. It was very much a follow the rules sort of. Of argument, but totally violate the spirit of the rules managed to follow the accounting rules, but totally misrepresent the economic reality of the business and valiant in that way was very similar, and that most of what valiant did was actually legal, and that's why you didn't see any prosecutions. After very few prosecutions after the fact, just a few lower level people in the subsidiary business, so they're both equally problematic companies in different ways, but they have that in common, which is the way in which an ethical failing can actually be more damaging than illegal. If that makes sense, oh, and here's another way in which they were similar. I'm doing that around the similarities. I am on the differences, but I think about this a lot that if a company makes a lot of enemies as it's on its way up, you have to be a lot more skeptical about that company than about an average company. Because when the tide turns, it's GonNa. Turn viciously and what I mean by that is that everybody hated Enron because of their arrogance and their callousness in the way, the company and its employees behaved other people. Their competitors hated them. Regulators hated them, and so when the tide turned, it turned viciously in the same thing was true. True valiant everybody else in the pharmaceutical industry hated them particularly after the battle with Allergen David. Pie was beloved and Mike. Pearson was not and so when the tide turned against valiant at turned viciously, and so I think that's a an interesting, an interesting broader lesson, the ways in which they were different I. Don't think the substance of the valiant story was accounting misrepresentation the way the way it was with Enron you could actually see pretty clearly that what valiant was doing with its with its numbers. There are a lot more of Enron shenanigans that were really hidden from from plain sight valiants. Wrongdoing to me, really centered around the price. Increases the way they were increasing prices on drugs to transparent. What was happening with valiant? Why did so many smart people get fleeced I? Still struggle to figure that out because that is actually a remarkable difference from Enron in that with Enron. When you got to what was commonly considered the smart money people, either weren't invested in Enron, or they were short, and it was largely long only funds an index funds and what we think of. In terms, but the dumb money that was that was invested in Enron in valiant, that was not true. Some of the smartest investors we have from SEQUOIA TO VALUE ACT TO BILL Ackman were big believers in in this company and I still can't quite figure it out I think a lot of it comes down to the power of personality and I think Mike Pearson. WHO Like Jeff Skilling was a Mackenzie allom had just this incredible intellectual charisma, and for both men was somewhat unlikely Skilling was kind of a door transformed himself into this naven..

Enron twitter Upton Sinclair Jeff Skilling Mike Pearson fraud BILL Ackman analyst Houston Texas SEQUOIA executive recruiter Pie David Mackenzie allom
"jeff skilling" Discussed on MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

11:14 min | 2 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

"He's he's passed away. Yeah explain who he was and who Jeff Skilling is and what their roles were an Enron. They were at different points in time respectively the CEO's does of Enron which at the time it filed for bankruptcy was the seventh largest company in the US by terms of revenues very large company. What did they do. That's a great question and that was a big part of contention in our prosecution. The way that Jeff Skilling describe the company he said it was a logistics company they were sort of an intermediary for essentially in the gas and power business but they also had some sidelined businesses they got into broad-band they got into retail energy provision of services to businesses that failed really spectacularly and actually formed the basis have a significant part of our indictment against the to CEO's but in truth and I think what we proved at trial what really Enron did is it was a a gas power energy trader and the reason why Jeff Skilling in particular we alleged improved wanted wanted to create this other narrative of it. Being a logistics company or inner mediator was that traders just a pure trading in company because it's quite risky the stock price tends to be volatile volatile and trade at what they call a much lower multiple all much lower price to earnings multiple because it reflects the risk involved at some days. They're up some days. They're down is volatility and what the market weekly then was looking looking forward sort of steady growth and so what Skilling's kind of plan in particular was okay. I'm going to construct this narrative that this company is. It's actually growing year-over-year at sort of a steady fifteen percent. It's a stable company. Earnings are smooth every quarter and in order for them to achieve narrative win. The reality of the company was it was a speculative trading house was they had to sort of concoct all of these accounting honing manipulative activities to create a picture of the company that was very different than the reality that was false that was false the broad and that's the fraud that's a crime under the securities laws and so that's the the case that we tried and that's the case that we proved a remember a book by two wonderful reporters called the smartest guys is in the room about the Enron scandal and even as a federal prosecutor and even as someone who had handled white collar cases. I was struck by the complexity complexity of the fraud in some ways. It's incredibly simple. It was designed to conceal what they really were from the trading public and from the markets on the other hand and some of the transactions were very complex. How you'll learn that stuff. It was really hard and we could not have done it without cooperators than I imagined with some very very good agents some very good agents we had primarily the FBI meals such a different time because today regardless of how big the white collar cases I I. I don't know you could get the resources that we were able to get but we had. I believe you know roughly around forty agents most of whom were. CPA's we had some really fantastic agents is working on that case. It was a full-time noticed. Actions is all any of US did slept it. We breathed it. It was an all consuming experience. It's that we needed people on the inside to really explain to us where in a very complex transaction the problem was and without those guides we had a really cooperative the cooperators who we were able to persuade that they had their own you know exposure which they of course they did and to plead guilty and to work with us in explaining the case and one of the cooperators. I worked with really closely. He was the former treasurer of the company. He had been very involved in designing some of these complex structures who was the treasurer his name was. Ben glisten. There was a particular transaction that they referred to at Enron as raptor the raptor one two three and four and it was unbelievably complex transaction he Bangladesh and did something that is very unusual. In these types of cases he basically pled to a five five-year conspiracy offense with no cooperation deal. He just said I'm just GONNA plead and I'm going to do my time. Why would you do that because he we made an assessment that his kids were at age. They were reasonably young that he could be of more value to them if he got this over with earlier her and was there for them and accessible in fighting for years inviting it for years. We weren't entirely satisfied that he was mentally in a place where he would be ineffective cooperator for us and one of the things that's really challenging about white. Collar cases is that people go through lots of different stages of denial and rationalization. I've seen it happen with a number of individuals where it's hard to accept that you know you committed fraud and that's not how it felt to them necessarily when they were going to work every day lots of times. I saw people would rationalize each small all decision as being what they needed to do at the time until you're too far down the road and you look back at all these small decisions and they constitute a very big fraud. That's exactly exactly right and it's hard to come to grips with that. You really have to sort of lay yourself bear. You have to just come to terms with all of it to be very effective witness the government you have to just be willing to just tell it exactly how it is in terms of your own culpability as well and so that's a process usually for most people has been gleason the treasurer of Enron ultimately able to do that. He was you know we spent a Lotta time I think reflecting when after he was sentenced I would go to the prison to meet with him so that he could explain to me. How this rafter transaction worked. You know sit down with them. We we'd have absorb secret place because obviously you know he didn't. We didn't want the other inmates to know that he was meeting with the government so it's all done in a very clandestine way and we worked the bureau of prisons to do that and I'd sit down with him. He was at a federal facility. The first place he was in Bastrop Texas then he moved to Beaumont he would explain explain it to me and I would say okay drive back to Houston is about two and a half hours. I'd say I got it and then I wake up the next day and I'd say it's is gone so it really took a process of just staying added. It was like learning a different language. I remember cases where I would do the same thing I I would hear it. I understood the words and then I realized I couldn't explain it to anyone else and that I didn't actually understand that would have to just do it again right. That's right and it's the you know what what's difficult for. People to understand is because you're talking to a jury of course says no background on this whatsoever. There's no way that they could possibly Sibley understand the complexity but if you as the prosecutor don't understand the complexity you're never going to be able to explain it in a way that they can understand stand it. You're going to be killed by the other side if you don't really understand the complexity so one thing I've always said about juries is that they may not necessarily understand exactly all of the nuance in the complexity but they know who's getting the better of the other Hey it's Chris Hayes from MSNBC every day. I come to the office and we make a television show and every day I think to myself itself. They're so much more. I want to talk about and so this is our podcast. It's called. Why is this happening and the whole idea behind it is to get to the root of the things that we see Lee out every day. They're driven by big ideas each week. I sit down with a person uniquely suited to explain why this is happening new episodes of why is this happening every every Tuesday. Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts did Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling trial they did. They did a new report of that trial. Trial was with whom with Sean Berkowitz. Who's my partner now? Leith unlock and Sean was in a USA in the northern district of Illinois. That's right. He worked with PAT FITZGERALD WHO. I know you've how does a guest on who great prosecutor and a guy named John Huston was the prosecutor in the Central District of California and we sort of you know wacked up the case as you do. John gave the opening statement I gave the closing argument and Sean gave the rebuttal and that was about a four month trial very intense since you know there were three completely packed courtrooms with journalists so there is the main courtroom and then to overflow rooms where you probably ably don't remember this Kathy but I was detailed to Houston for about a year and actually sat and watched you. Try that case well. I knew you were there. Because of course you are incredibly helpful to US and getting US some office face and things like that which we were grateful for the Houston. US Attorney's office which temporarily ran in who was recused from all of the Enron cases and so that's why people like you and John and Sean Matt were brought in from other parts of the country to handle that matter that's right there was a story in the Houston Chronicle that referred to us as the Evian drinking carpet baggers or something you know which a we all thought was not very nice. Were you drinking a Vietnam of course not carpetbaggers. Yes we were. We were Houston's one of those places. That's pretty parochial like a lot of districts around the country and but the judges were very fair to us and it was uh really hard. Fi ks it was one of those once in a lifetime cases you know it was difficult to explain and we were under enormous pressure in. I think back now I turned thirty five during the trial and so I was the youngest member of the team and I remember coming back to Doj after we got the guilty verdicts in that case and there was a it's very senior prosecutor in the asset forfeiture money laundering section and she said to me. I just have one question for you. How did you not just stay in in the fetal position every day it. was you know it was such she was. It was a very genuine questions. She's just like how did you cope with. That kind of pressure and the answer is is just that you just do because you have to. When you step into the well of the Corden the world's watching and you just have to hope that you know the case better than anybody and trust your gut we started this conversation talking about a USA toiling in a Superior Court in the district of Columbia in anonymity where nobody knows and nobody cares and we are now.

Enron Jeff Skilling USA prosecutor fraud Houston treasurer John Huston CEO Sean Sean Berkowitz FBI CPA Doj PAT FITZGERALD Chris Hayes Ben glisten Houston Chronicle Ken Lay
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Newsradio 1200 WOAI

Newsradio 1200 WOAI

05:11 min | 2 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Newsradio 1200 WOAI

"Change. Kevin you're on the Michael berry show. Go ahead, sir. You know, you mentioned that you know, somebody like skilling, and these guys, you know, they made some mistakes. Do they serve some time? And, you know, look at all learn from their mistakes, but I like to offer that these weren't mistakes. These guys exactly what they were doing and the level corruption that was involved. Most people have idea. You know, if he ever did get in front of skilling might ask him about the the failed natural gas plant in India. They were trying to get a no big contract for a pipeline to save it. Billions of dollars over budget. You know, Dick Cheney's evolve. No, big contracts CIA's of all Taliban. And let's not forget about the the grand larceny. They were doing with electric company from California. So. Mistake. Now calculated criminal enterprise. Call it whatever you want. But a crime is also a mistake. I didn't say it's an honest mistake and say it was an oversight at say they accidentally did something wrong. They made mistakes. They by the purest definition of the word mistake. I I didn't say they did non-criminal things he criminal things and he went to prison. He was sentenced to fourteen years in prison. How many? The smartest guys in the room. What's that? The documentary called the smartest guy in the room. Yes. Yeah. I was there. I was I know the people who made the film. I'm very familiar with what what is the point. Kevin. He he was sentenced to fourteen years. Do you want me to have him on and go? Hi guy, your criminal. Make sure you tell us your criminal. He was sentenced to fourteen years. We don't send people to longer than that for far greater crimes. I'm not saying that the guy's a Saint. I said he committed a crime. Would you rather? Hey, committed a crime rather than he made a mistake. It doesn't matter. What you call it. You can still learn from somebody in that situation. But what are you saying? Nope. Don't talk to that guy. He committed a crime. I didn't say that. Your quibbling over the use of the word mistake as if I think that. Okay. I granted. I see your your point of it. I would just saying that, you know, the, they're not honest mistakes. Okay. I'll. I know people who were wiped out, I know somebody who was wiped out that was a career employee at at a very low level who personally knew some of those individuals and trusted them and stayed with the company for all those years and was wiped out. I mean, devastating. There were people who committed suicide it was awful. I'm simply saying that when we look at the sentencing levels, he was sentenced to more time in prison. Then a lot of people who did more than him. That is a fact. Okay, that's all I'm saying. And I feel that there is something to be learned from an individual who has fallen down who we use Kevin's term who has committed the most heinous crime in the history of mankind, which were these financial corporate frauds? Yes, they're awful. But people have to. Understand. We have a peel code that has tears. It has levels is like when people say to me that so and so should get the death penalty. What should he get the death penalty for for for raping a child? Okay. He didn't kill the child. Right. Yes. That's correct. All right. The reason you have a death penalty for one of the reasons is for people to stop short in the commission of a crime of killing another person. Because if you say, well, basically, if a child is involved at all you're getting the death penalty when you do that you're gonna make it. So they're going to go. I'm better off killing this kid and hiding the body because I'm going to get the death penalty. Anyway. You can't let your emotions get the better of you when we're trying to devise a system Dennis rational and reasonable. It is very easy for people to say, we go soft on criminals and those same people when one of their loved ones is falsely accused or has been accused and has made a mistake. Sorry has committed the most awful heinous crime. And you're only asking for a fair trial and a fair sense of Justice. It's so easy to just say, well, just hang up all Michael death penalty for a mall. I hate when people quibble over words like that to try to make some big show of their emotion. Okay. Jeff skilling didn't make mistakes he committed the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind. Is that have have I used.

Kevin Dick Cheney Jeff skilling Michael berry CIA India California Dennis fourteen years
"jeff skilling" Discussed on KTRH

KTRH

05:18 min | 2 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on KTRH

"Don't change. Kevin you're on the Michael berry show. Go ahead, sir. You know, you mentioned that, you know, something like skilling in these guys, you know, they made some mistakes they serve some time. And you know, we can all learn from them. But I like to offer that these weren't mistakes, these guys you exactly what they were doing the level corruption that was involved for most people have no idea. You know, if he ever did get in front of skilling from about the the failed natural gas plant that they're building India. They were trying to get a no big contract for pipeline to save it. Billions of dollars over budget. You know, Dick Cheney's evolve. No, big contracts of all Taliban. And let's not forget about the the grand larceny during the electric company from California. So. Mistake about calculated criminal enterprise. Call it whatever you want. But a crime is also a mistake. I didn't say it's an honest mistake and say it was an oversight. I didn't say they accidentally did something wrong. They made mistakes. They by the purest definition of the word mistake. I I didn't say they did non-criminal things he things and he went to prison. He was sentenced to fourteen years in prison. Called the smartest guys in the room. What's that? The documentary called the smartest guy in the room. Yes. Yeah. I was there. I was I know the people who who made the film. I'm very familiar with what what is the point. Kevin. He he was sentenced to fourteen years. Do you want me to have him on and go, you bet guy your criminal? Make sure you tell us your criminal. He was sentenced to fourteen years. We don't send people to longer than that for far greater crimes. I'm not saying that the guy's a Saint. I said he committed a crime. Would you rather he committed a crime rather than he made a mistake? It doesn't matter. What you call it. You can still learn from somebody in that situation. But what I hear you saying is. Nope, don't talk to that guy. He committed a crime. I didn't say that. Your quibbling over the use of the word mistake as if I think that. Over. Okay. I granted. I see your your point of it. I would just saying that, you know, they're not honest mistakes. Okay. I'll. I know. Wiped out. I know somebody who was wiped out that was a career employee at at a very low level who personally knew some of those individuals and trusted them and stayed with the company for all those years and was wiped out. I mean, devastating. There were people who committed suicide it was awful. I'm simply saying that when we look at the sentencing levels, he was sentenced to more time in prison. Then a lot of people who did more than him. That is a fact. Okay. That's all I'm saying. And and I feel that there is something to be learned from an individual who has fallen down who use Kevin's term who has committed the most heinous crime in the history of mankind, which were these financial corporate frauds? Yes, they're awful. But people have to understand we have a penal code that has tears. It has levels is like when people say to me that so and so should get the death penalty. What should he get the death penalty for for for raping a child? Okay. He didn't kill the child. Right. Yes. That's correct. All right. The reason you have a death penalty for one of the reasons is for people to stop short in the commission of a crime of killing another person. Because if you say, well, basically, if a child is involved at all you're getting the death penalty when you do that you're gonna make it. So they're going to go. I'm better off killing this kid and hiding the body because I'm going to get the death penalty. Anyway. You can't let your emotions get the better of you when we're trying to devise a system Dennis rational and reasonable. It is very easy for people to say, we go soft on criminals and those same people when one of their loved ones is falsely accused or has been accused and has made a mistake. Oh, sorry has committed the most awful heinous crime. And you're only asking for a fair trial and a fair sense of Justice. It's so easy to just say. Well, just hang all Michael death penalty for a mall. I hate when people quibble over words like that to try to make some big show of their emotion. Okay. Jeff skilling didn't make mistakes he committed the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind. Is that have have I used better.

Kevin Dick Cheney Jeff skilling Michael berry India California Dennis fourteen years
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

02:37 min | 2 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

"We're back in how prescient yes, you are. Correct. My friend Enron. So Enron was the creation of guy named Jeff skilling. Jeff skilling was McKinsey consultant for twenty one years when Enron collapsed. He actually went to jail he did relatively rare for a lot of financial crimes MacKenzie reportedly fully endorsed the dubious accounting methods that caused the company to implode in two thousand and one and Enron reportedly used McKinsey for twenty different projects and. It became a situation. Where MacKenzie consultants would say, you know, Enron is kind of a sandbox for us. Let's just shake things up. Let's roll the dice make it interesting Vegas, baby. Yeah. Let's see what we can do. We can get away with does this make money if we just say this or we just do this. It's pretty brilliant. And if you've ever seen the documentary, it's called Enron, the smartest guys in the room. I would recommend it highly. Go check it out. If you get a chance find it somewhere. We have we done an Enron episode. I think I don't know if we have we've talked about it a lot. I think it's worth it. Like just taking this expanding it onto a whole episode. Just because there's there are a lot of details in here about the weirdness that occurred there, right? Okay. So. The high level quick and dirty. Look at this Enron was the largest bankruptcy reorganization in American history at its time. It was also called the biggest failure of an audit. The scandal went public in October two thousand one Enron was an energy company based in Houston, Texas, and it was formed in nineteen eighty five sear doing the whole episode right now, this is a whole episode vessel. But yes, I to hear the facts section. I feel well a lot of people went to jail. It had. Intil I think until WorldCom went bankrupt. The very next year Enron was the largest corporate bankruptcy in history. Because I think it was valued at sixty three point four billion dollars. And then all went kaput. Yeah. Just sean. So maybe we'll do an Enron episode. Yeah. There should be worth it. It might be dry a little bit. But I think we can pull some stuff out of there. Just from I in the insanity of our financial systems like as they work.

Enron Jeff skilling McKinsey MacKenzie WorldCom financial crimes consultant Houston Texas sean four billion dollars twenty one years
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Rocket

Rocket

01:37 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Rocket

"I think that there will probably be a settlement in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, it, you know, it depends on and even then it depends on kind of what they can prove it mean Jeff skilling. And this happened this week, Jeff. Skilling was just who was the the of Enron which is like one of the biggest scams of all time that you know was publicly traded company and and which which makes some things different in, you know, cost a thousands of people their jobs and and was truly kind of terrible thing. He served eleven years in jail. I think he was sentenced to fifteen in the news released early, so but his trial, but he fought it and it took them a long time to get through trial. And in fact, he and he and the the, the CO or other cofounder, whatever other guy can lay, the chairman were both convicted, and then Ken Lay died before he. Be sentenced which meant that because he died before he was sentenced meant that like he died not having been convicted of anything like it was able to be expunged from his record, which you know made his family happy, but, but everybody else kind of incensed that you know he was able to whitewash his legacy a bit, but that shook a wile. So we just kind of depends. I would imagine. Like I said, I would imagine there's a settlements. I think that it might depend on like who turns on who you know what I mean point bell, Wannian homes broken up and ask about that broke up when she kicked him out of the company when things were going badly, she dumped in and buy them and sa- me, I mean, I kinda get that, you know, look out for yourself..

Jeff skilling Ken Lay Enron Wannian chairman eleven years
Enron fraud architect Jeff Skilling released from prison

Houston Morning News

00:35 sec | 3 years ago

Enron fraud architect Jeff Skilling released from prison

"Oh five former Enron CEO Jeffrey Skilling. Released from an Alabama prison living in a halfway house undisclosed location sixty four year old sentence in two thousand six to twenty four years in prison and a forty five million dollar fine after being. Convicted on multiple counts of fraud conspiracy and insider trading his. Sentence was reduced five years ago in a plea deal the Enron collapse in, two thousand, one was the largest bankruptcy in. US history founder chairman Ken Lay convicted along with skilling he died of a heart. Attack six weeks later while his case was under appeal and so that conviction was thrown

Houston Enron United States Texas Disneyland Park Jeffrey Skilling Director Andy Challenger Rabies Joe Webb Challenger Gray Fraud West End Turner Administration Scott Ken Lay Alabama Ross Department
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

Invest Like the Best

03:11 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

"And then I think on an individual level as unpacking what makes you until actually honest. And I'll give you a little example. I still today Jeff skilling was a master of two things. One was a sort of intellectual intimidation that made people pretend to get things even when they did. And the other was what somebody told me was the McKenzie. Data jump was just being able to spew an enormous amount of information when he was asked a question such that you just really couldn't stay with him in order to say, but you still didn't answer my question and I despise knowing those lessons. We'll still pretend I understand things that I don't, and we'll still along with things in a room because I don't want to be the person say, I don't understand, but what makes me intellectually honest as when I sit down to write, I realize I didn't understand it. And that's what keeps me honest at the end of the day. I won't necessarily be honest and conversation and Minnesota Minnesotan. I'm not. I'm not naturally confrontational, but I will be honest when I sit down and write and I'll be forced to see, I don't understand this. It didn't make sense to me, and that's when I'll get tough and sort of dig in and go back to people and say, no, this doesn't make sense. And so I think whatever your method is, it doesn't have to be confrontation in the moment. But whatever your method is of knowing you didn't understand something or something doesn't sound right. You just have to find it. Kicking what you've learned and then building something that your own from it and then opening that up to feedback. Like that's kind of the process that is. And for me, it's less. I guess it is feedback ultimately because it's going to be public. But it's also for me writing as an active finding clarity in it's an iterative act and that you try to write you realize you don't understand, do, go back and try to figure it out. You try to write again, you realize you still didn't understand something, but it's an active fighting clarity, thoughts you have on the role that empathy has played in your career in your style in your affective, nece, or just thoughts on empathy in general? That's a really interesting idea. And I guess when I said earlier in the conversation that you have to care, that was my version of empathy. You have to really care and be curious and be open to what the person is telling you what their point of view as. And even if you can see where they're skewed and their point of view, why it is that they would be skewed. And I think I guess by nature, I think I am pretty empathetic. I don't have a. I often think that if I had ended up if after I had left Goldman, which is where I worked right out of college before I went into journalism with an executive recruiter had said to me, well, not an executive recruiter. Junior worker had said to me, there's this fascinating energy company down in Texas that is doing all sorts of neat things. And if I had ended up working at Enron in the finance department for Andy Fastow, what I've been the person doing creative structures or what I have said, no, this is wrong. And I don't know the answer to that. I like to hope it would have been the ladder, but I actually don't know. And so if you try to visualize in order not to be pathetic, you have to really believe you're a lot better than than other people. But a fascinating thing about listening and silence my eight year old daughter just pointed this out to me, which I thought was great, which is that you can actually make silent out of listen their anagrams and it's so great because in order to listen, you have to be silent, right? So anyway, pro from the mouths of babes closing question for everybody, which is always interesting..

executive recruiter Jeff skilling Goldman Enron Andy Fastow Minnesota Texas eight year
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

Invest Like the Best

03:11 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

"And then I think on an individual level as unpacking what makes you until actually honest. And I'll give you a little example. I still today Jeff skilling was a master of two things. One was a sort of intellectual intimidation that made people pretend to get things even when they did. And the other was what somebody told me was the McKenzie. Data jump was just being able to spew an enormous amount of information when he was asked a question such that you just really couldn't stay with him in order to say, but you still didn't answer my question and I despise knowing those lessons. We'll still pretend I understand things that I don't, and we'll still along with things in a room because I don't want to be the person say, I don't understand, but what makes me intellectually honest as when I sit down to write, I realize I didn't understand it. And that's what keeps me honest at the end of the day. I won't necessarily be honest and conversation and Minnesota Minnesotan. I'm not. I'm not naturally confrontational, but I will be honest when I sit down and write and I'll be forced to see, I don't understand this. It didn't make sense to me, and that's when I'll get tough and sort of dig in and go back to people and say, no, this doesn't make sense. And so I think whatever your method is, it doesn't have to be confrontation in the moment. But whatever your method is of knowing you didn't understand something or something doesn't sound right. You just have to find it. Kicking what you've learned and then building something that your own from it and then opening that up to feedback. Like that's kind of the process that is. And for me, it's less. I guess it is feedback ultimately because it's going to be public. But it's also for me writing as an active finding clarity in it's an iterative act and that you try to write you realize you don't understand, do, go back and try to figure it out. You try to write again, you realize you still didn't understand something, but it's an active fighting clarity, thoughts you have on the role that empathy has played in your career in your style in your affective, nece, or just thoughts on empathy in general? That's a really interesting idea. And I guess when I said earlier in the conversation that you have to care, that was my version of empathy. You have to really care and be curious and be open to what the person is telling you what their point of view as. And even if you can see where they're skewed and their point of view, why it is that they would be skewed. And I think I guess by nature, I think I am pretty empathetic. I don't have a. I often think that if I had ended up if after I had left Goldman, which is where I worked right out of college before I went into journalism with an executive recruiter had said to me, well, not an executive recruiter. Junior worker had said to me, there's this fascinating energy company down in Texas that is doing all sorts of neat things. And if I had ended up working at Enron in the finance department for Andy Fastow, what I've been the person doing creative structures or what I have said, no, this is wrong. And I don't know the answer to that. I like to hope it would have been the ladder, but I actually don't know. And so if you try to visualize in order not to be pathetic, you have to really believe you're a lot better than than other people. But a fascinating thing about listening and silence my eight year old daughter just pointed this out to me, which I thought was great, which is that you can actually make silent out of listen their anagrams and it's so great because in order to listen, you have to be silent, right? So anyway, pro from the mouths of babes closing question for everybody, which is always interesting..

executive recruiter Jeff skilling Goldman Enron Andy Fastow Minnesota Texas eight year
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

Invest Like the Best

03:36 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

"And sometimes I think it's actually a simple as whether it works the enter now, whether whether you're able to get away with it because it works in the end. But when people convince others to believe, they usually believe themselves. And I remember saying it one point when I was working on the Enron book, I was really struggling with this because I said some, I was very close to. I said, but Jeff skilling he believed and having trouble with this. He believed and this person looked at me and said, Bethany, the worst crimes in human history had been committed by people who believed. And so these themes about human nature resonate not through business, but through human history. And that's why. I find them so fascinating. You betcha this idea between visionary and fraud. This is a really interesting binary and I'm sure that people listening, we'll think about people like you on musk probably is the biggest example of it today for sure. But maybe we could use the story of tesla specifically and a company that shortsellers love to talk about a company that believers equity holders love to talk about. I'm curious your take on this as it's playing out live where we don't know the outcome yet. Obviously, you could paint a picture. One of two ways you cut. I have not written about tesla, so I don't know enough to know, but I do find it. Elon Musk obviously says all sorts of things that aren't true and makes all sorts of predictions that don't come to pass in those details. He is somebody you could see getting in trouble down the road. And if you read Ashley Vance's great book on him, the first half of it just lays out all the ways in which he skirted the rules, essentially lied to people but thought away with it. And so I think in this case, one of the lines between the skeptics. And the believers is he's like, he's not telling the truth. This isn't happening in the believers who thinks somebody who's that brilliant. And has that big a dream while they're just all these details? Don't really matter. The details are unimportant you, you know, grungy little detail oriented people who can't see the big picture and it's really fascinating because that is exactly the crux of this debate. I just finished this book called free radicals, which is a really interesting book about all the frauds basically perpetrated by great scientists, and there's this great line and by Isaac Newton's biographer who talks about him throwing clouds. I'm gonna get it wrong, but throwing clouds of exquisitely crafted fudge factor in the eyes of the scientific opponents and says, basically, some of his most famous work was deliberate fraud. He knew he was right about the idea and he just didn't want to didn't have the math skills to back it up and it makes you realize that this theme is larger like everything. It's larger than the business world of storytelling. Narratives in businesses just amazing because of the power that it can create like. Literally, you can create something from nothing with a great story and create your own momentum. Looking back on all the things you've investigated. Was there a moment where they're sort of this visionary fraud, like you're not sure that stands out in memory? Is there a person or a situation where you really didn't know? I don't know that I can answer that at the moment in time, but looking back at it, it's fascinating if you think about Enron because Enron broadband, which was a fraud for all intents and purposes for the nitty gritty reasons that shortsellers focus on reporting prophets that were basically manufactured out of thin air as lies about the status of the business. But Enron broadband was Netflix. I find that incredibly interesting because if it hadn't been for all the other manifold problems and Enron's businesses, perhaps they would have gotten away with it. And so it's it's unclear, I'm not sure. I wish I could identify that pivotal moment where you can tell the difference between who's a visionary and who's a fraud star. But I, I sometimes think it's only clear in retrospect because the luck of weather. Not at all works, whether or not you get the.

fraud Enron Elon Musk Enron broadband Jeff skilling Bethany Ashley Vance Isaac Newton
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

Invest Like the Best

03:36 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Invest Like the Best

"And sometimes I think it's actually a simple as whether it works the enter now, whether whether you're able to get away with it because it works in the end. But when people convince others to believe, they usually believe themselves. And I remember saying it one point when I was working on the Enron book, I was really struggling with this because I said some, I was very close to. I said, but Jeff skilling he believed and having trouble with this. He believed and this person looked at me and said, Bethany, the worst crimes in human history had been committed by people who believed. And so these themes about human nature resonate not through business, but through human history. And that's why. I find them so fascinating. You betcha this idea between visionary and fraud. This is a really interesting binary and I'm sure that people listening, we'll think about people like you on musk probably is the biggest example of it today for sure. But maybe we could use the story of tesla specifically and a company that shortsellers love to talk about a company that believers equity holders love to talk about. I'm curious your take on this as it's playing out live where we don't know the outcome yet. Obviously, you could paint a picture. One of two ways you cut. I have not written about tesla, so I don't know enough to know, but I do find it. Elon Musk obviously says all sorts of things that aren't true and makes all sorts of predictions that don't come to pass in those details. He is somebody you could see getting in trouble down the road. And if you read Ashley Vance's great book on him, the first half of it just lays out all the ways in which he skirted the rules, essentially lied to people but thought away with it. And so I think in this case, one of the lines between the skeptics. And the believers is he's like, he's not telling the truth. This isn't happening in the believers who thinks somebody who's that brilliant. And has that big a dream while they're just all these details? Don't really matter. The details are unimportant you, you know, grungy little detail oriented people who can't see the big picture and it's really fascinating because that is exactly the crux of this debate. I just finished this book called free radicals, which is a really interesting book about all the frauds basically perpetrated by great scientists, and there's this great line and by Isaac Newton's biographer who talks about him throwing clouds. I'm gonna get it wrong, but throwing clouds of exquisitely crafted fudge factor in the eyes of the scientific opponents and says, basically, some of his most famous work was deliberate fraud. He knew he was right about the idea and he just didn't want to didn't have the math skills to back it up and it makes you realize that this theme is larger like everything. It's larger than the business world of storytelling. Narratives in businesses just amazing because of the power that it can create like. Literally, you can create something from nothing with a great story and create your own momentum. Looking back on all the things you've investigated. Was there a moment where they're sort of this visionary fraud, like you're not sure that stands out in memory? Is there a person or a situation where you really didn't know? I don't know that I can answer that at the moment in time, but looking back at it, it's fascinating if you think about Enron because Enron broadband, which was a fraud for all intents and purposes for the nitty gritty reasons that shortsellers focus on reporting prophets that were basically manufactured out of thin air as lies about the status of the business. But Enron broadband was Netflix. I find that incredibly interesting because if it hadn't been for all the other manifold problems and Enron's businesses, perhaps they would have gotten away with it. And so it's it's unclear, I'm not sure. I wish I could identify that pivotal moment where you can tell the difference between who's a visionary and who's a fraud star. But I, I sometimes think it's only clear in retrospect because the luck of weather. Not at all works, whether or not you get the.

fraud Enron Elon Musk Enron broadband Jeff skilling Bethany Ashley Vance Isaac Newton
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Great Women of Business

Great Women of Business

02:31 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Great Women of Business

"A dish that she found sitting underneath a plant holder she would also candy fruits for the other inmates and at one point figured out how to make a poor man's custard she mentioned that her chore was to clean the shoe for special holding unit to which conan joked quote i bet you were very thorough and quote on david letterman when she set the record straight on rumors that she'd been in a fight i slipped on some wet floor and i got a really bad black and blue mark on my arm and people notice that got called right down and wanted to know who i had been in a fight with she knew she could repair reputation with good humor of course to stewart the biggest joke is that this entire ordeal could have been avoided if she would have kept her shares in imclone due to the scandal prison sentence and trial by public opinion stewart lost three hundred thirty million dollars between two thousand two and two thousand five by selling her shares in imclone early she saved a measly forty five thousand dollars some would say that stewart pay twice for her crimes her downfall evoked a sense of blood thirst in the public lynagh riskin easy of the daily news summed up these feelings aptly quote she is to confident to competent to rich she's even to pretty and quote writer david plots with slate pointed out that while martha did indeed commit a crime there are many male ceos guilty of far worse who have yet to serve prison time kenneth lay and jeff skilling of enron for starters plots writes quote this trial was more about reprimanding this cunning businesswoman for her personality than about punishing her actual criminal offense and quote and indeed over three million people watched her get sentenced to prison on national television treating it like a sporting event for many it felt like she was being punished for being unapologetically successful stewart once joked that people would prefer she dig a hole and jump in it and hide instead of continually assert her dominance in a male driven media industry although for some the thing that makes her so repelling is the very talents that made her famous in the.

david letterman imclone stewart david plots martha enron conan writer kenneth jeff skilling three hundred thirty million d forty five thousand dollars
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Conspiracy Theories

Conspiracy Theories

01:49 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Conspiracy Theories

"When she set the record straight on rumors that she'd been in a fight i slipped on some wet floor and i got a really bad black and blue mark on my arm and people notice that like got cold right down and wanted to know who i had been in a fight with she knew she could repair reputation with good humor of course to stewart the biggest joke is that this entire ordeal could have been avoided if she would have kept her shares in imclone due to the scandal prison sentence and trial by public opinion stewart lost three hundred thirty million dollars between two thousand two and two thousand five by selling her shares in imclone early she saved a measly forty five thousand dollars some would say that steward paid twice for her crimes for downfall evoked a sense of blood thirst in the public linear skin easy of the daily news summed up these feelings aptly quote she is too confident to competent to rich she's even to pretty and quote writer david plots with slate pointed out that while martha did indeed commit a crime there are many male ceos guilty of far worse who have yet to serve prison time kenneth lay and jeff skilling of enron for starters plots writes quote this trial was more about reprimanding this cunning businesswoman for her personality than about punishing her actual criminal offense and quote and indeed over three million people watched her get sentenced to prison on national television treating it like a sporting event for many it.

imclone stewart david plots martha enron writer kenneth jeff skilling three hundred thirty million d forty five thousand dollars
"jeff skilling" Discussed on P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

01:47 min | 3 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

"Tesla automobiles they do not burn fossil fuel test the company burns a lot of cash here to tell us more about the company is gordon johnson managing director alternative energy metals mining and equipment analyst for vertical group gordon johnson always a pleasure you were listening into the call yesterday wanted to share with our listeners what you heard and what you took away from it yeah i mean what we heard on the call surprisingly i think not just to us but many whereas a very defensive management team from tesla specifically elon musk and you know historically they've been very open to taking questions and it seems like very important questions with respect to surprisingly low april model three deliveries what's going on with the deposits on the model three given the cars have been delayed significantly questions around these items were essentially deemed boring and they turned it over to a youtube blogger who says he owns fifty four shares so when you're shutting analysts from the institutions that you are heavily relying on and heavily rely on to to do your business it's it's very concerning you know it's reminiscent of you know in the second quarter of two thousand one when jeff skilling called an analyst on our hearings call and when the stock was fifty five and by the end of the year is at nine dollars not we're not saying tesla is enron but we are saying that this is a definite shift in tone from management to tesla so gordon given given that shift why aren't the shares of tesla down more there down more than six percent.

analyst gordon johnson tesla elon musk jeff skilling managing director youtube enron nine dollars six percent
"jeff skilling" Discussed on The New Yorker Radio Hour

The New Yorker Radio Hour

01:34 min | 4 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on The New Yorker Radio Hour

"Clearly i decision was made at some point sort of to steer away from individual charges are how is it possible that a bank would demand that its shareholders pay sixteen billion dollars in fines to the government yet there was not an individual at that bank who could be charged with committing a crime it it just defies logic and you can contrast that with other whitecollar cases in the past there were handled very differently now one one that comes to mind as enron and the enron case was a very complicated case that took years to build there was a dedicated group of prosecutors and fbi agents who were put on that case they didn't have anything else they were supposed to do there were only working on that case and they were given resorces to really follow it and they ultimately ended up uh convicting can lay and jeff skilling the ceo and chairman of the firm and they did not have any email evidence where those guys are saying something stupid in selfincriminating in an email the dick the case was much more diffuse but they had witnesses and just by really working hard over a long period of time they're able to build the case without the kind of evidence that i think people have become accustomed to seeing now which is somebody gun smoking gun an email where somebody says i know this is a criminal act and i am engaging in it ha ha we got away with it i they didn't have any of that yet they did manage to put these two top guys in jail and that does not happen any more amazing so so listen i'm gonna i'm gonna tell you a story then so.

enron ceo chairman fbi jeff skilling sixteen billion dollars
"jeff skilling" Discussed on Politics and More Podcast

Politics and More Podcast

01:34 min | 4 years ago

"jeff skilling" Discussed on Politics and More Podcast

"Clearly a decision was made at some point sort of to steer away from individual charges how is it possible that a bank would demand that its shareholders pay sixteen billion dollars in fines to the government yet there was not an individual at that bank who could be charged with committing a crime it it just defies logic and you can contrast that with other whitecollar cases in the past there were handled very differently now one one that comes to mind as enron and the enron case was a very complicated case that took years to build there was a dedicated group of prosecutors and fbi agents who were put on that case they didn't have anything else they were supposed to do there were only working on that case and they were given resources to really follow it and they ultimately ended up uh convicting ken lay and jeff skilling the ceo and chairman of the firm and they did not have any email evidence where those guys are saying something stupid in selfincriminating in an email the the the case was much more diffuse but they had witnesses and just by really working hard over a long period of time they're able to build the case without the kind of evidence that i think people have become accustomed to seeing now which is somebody gun smoking gun an email where somebody says i know this is a criminal act and i am engaging in it ha ha we got away with it i they didn't have any of that yet they did manage to put these two top guys in jail and that does not happen any more amazing so so listen i'm and i'm gonna tell you a story then so.

enron ken lay ceo chairman fbi jeff skilling sixteen billion dollars