20 Episode results for "Jeff Shane"

Episode 9- 25 Miles South Part 2

The Piketon Massacre

34:42 min | 2 months ago

Episode 9- 25 Miles South Part 2

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Welcome to the piped-in massacre production of iheartradio and katie studios. Somebody pretty important in ohio. Once asked to be why. I was so vested interested in this case in sex trafficking. I had to be honest with myself and i had to say when i first heard it. I didn't believe it. i didn't think it was widespread. And ever since then. It's been like these women aren't lying and they deserve all lavar. This is the pectin massacre return to pike county season. Two episode nine twenty five miles south part to. I'm courtney armstrong a television producer at katy studios with stephanie lie. Decker and jeff shane throughout the series we've examined abuses of power by authorities in ohio from law enforcement officials to city councilman investigative reporter. James pilcher drew a through line in the cases of pike. County sheriff charlie reader michael moran and the corruption that has infiltrated the southern ohio criminal justice system happening in these kinds of counties. So much either. Hey you had ineffectual or corrupt or both law enforcement right. You had a community or a culture of lawlessness that has descended on upon many places in rural america. And i think that's one of the reasons. Nobody's watching nobody cares to watch not to enhance or blow up importance of journalists. But if you don't have some kind of watchdog or Somebody holding officials accountable i. It doesn't always work in two thousand. Seventeen reported nikki. Blankenship uncovered an affidavit filed by the drug enforcement agency. The document detailed and fbi investigation into a portsmouth. Ohio lawyer and former city councilman michael moran. Its content supported stories. Nikki had long heard from area. Women who claimed that moran was involved in sexual digging and prostitution. It should be noted. That michael moran has strongly denied the allegations. So when i got this affidavit. I i mean they took it to my publisher my editor and they wanna prove that it was real it was authentic and all this was real and so i contacted private investigators that i knew had the look into the document further. I call people in court systems. That i knew and had them looking into it. I verified it over and over and over and ultimately they said that no we're not going to publish gave my letter of resignation that day and the said ethical differences. I left during the course of her reporting on sex trafficking and southern ohio. The issue had become personal for nikki. She often spoke with the families of portsmouth women that had fallen into prostitution and others whose family members had gone missing or been murdered after her resignation. Nikki had a crucial decision to make. I made a promise to the families little bit. But i promised these families and i shouldn't have as journalists thomas them but i did. I promise that i was going to scream until someone listened. So i felt like i was just repeatedly be shut down. I feel very helpless. I had to do something. I had to put it out there somewhere. And social media's. I knew even if only local families were able to see that i thought it might them in some way give them something and as a local journalist a lot of people locally were on my facebook page so i went ahead and i publish him. I went to sleep. Woke up the next morning. I had hundreds probably thousands of whites on the close already traits if not thousands of shares and messages for everyone. But it kinda went crazier than i expected to win. You saw the affidavit. What ran through your head. I was not a bit stunned and people. They want me to be stunned. But i wasn't. That's katie lancaster. Speaking with producer. Chris graves katie's best friend and sister-in-law megan lancaster went missing twenty thirteen. Katie alleges that megan worked for michael moran as a prostitute moran denies these allegations. What went through my head is. Oh my gosh like. I'm not the only one that sees this. You know like the fbi sees it like it was just so just a sense of relief. News of the affidavits spread. It soon. Caught the attention of cincinnati inquirer investigative editor. Bob strictly who had once worked for the newspaper. The portsmouth daily times initially was sports editor in portsmouth and was elevated to managing editor. And during my time there there were always these rumors about michael moran and the women that he was around in circles he he ran in and at the time early in my career it just seems so far fetched or smith if nothing else is a remote so a lot of things get tossed around without substantive evidence to back it up but it was quite surprising to receive or that there is something that could actually back this up. We got a copy of it ourselves and verified through various attorneys and around the council. And i went back and looked through notes that i take and i 'cause i never throw away notebook for my time. Working enforcement was like a lot of this tracks. And here's a government official saying so and it's in a sworn affidavit. So it's time for the chips allah table and get involved says too. Big of a story took more even. If it is a place that is not traditionally in an area where type paper covers it. I don't know if initiated a sense of responsibility as much as it triggered a pretty huge amount of guilt that motivated me to go pitch the story of our bosses despite paper being two and a half hours away from the subject that we were covering and luckily bosses were hospitable enough to allow us to explore that dig real deep in this story and turn over some rocks that needed to be turned over decades ago the puerta. Jane's kilter was writing for the inquirer at the time mob. Boss came to me. Because i was investigative reporter and said what do you think about this. You wanna take a look at this guy. Trafficking women all over the country from this little town. This burned out shell of a town. It's known as the epicenter of the opioid epidemic. Is he doing. This is it. Sure can we prove it. I really thought there was no way. There was no way this could be going on for so long and nobody did anything about the other interesting thing. Was that the paper got. This wouldn't publish it. I mean it's a federal affidavit and they still wouldn't publish it right. There in the hometown of mike moran picks it the big city newspaper from two hours away in cincinnati to come in and do this investigation now granted. We have the resources of usa today behind this but why not at that have been published or if the local newspaper had been truly and independent harm or an independent high with some of this stuff have gone on. I don't think so the first time i went to portsmouth. I didn't know what to expect. Nate partnered me fulltime with photographer. Who is also on the story is she and i were just shooting some footage out at the. Us shoe factory and there was graffiti. They're talking about a prostitution and drugs and things like that and this guy writes up on a bicycle san What you guys doing. We just kinda tell them so. By the way you know michael marine he said oh yeah that guy runs women point where like oh my god. Everybody in town knows guy on the street knows this guy. We didn't even ask. In twenty tilt to begin the difficult task of locating area women and asking them to open up to him about alleged experiences with michael moran yun of that year. I got the first woman to come forward and say. Here's exactly how he did it. And then by july we had one or two on the record and if these allegations proven true this guy was in the seat of power. He had these vulnerable women coming to him for help from a legal perspective. Any offering the other way out do this. And maybe i can get these charges less than for you. We heard that story over and over again. Do this and you won't go to jail. And how much of a worst abuse of power could there being. He started this story. not believing. this is possible. How does that make you feel. I'm six seven to forty. I looked like a cop. Got a big black tea. Where black fedora. I'm not warm and cuddly and people don't immediately warm up now. A good conversationalist by i was the government kind of accountability reporter and getting women to open up. Tell me these awful things to happen to them. That was eye opening and it was a new skill. I had to learn. I also had to be the reporter. I also had to be the objective reporter and the hard part was i also had the fact. Check all these women. I couldn't just take their word for my publications reputation was on the line. My reputation was on the line. I had to elite but be skeptical so when they would tell me all. I remember that. I got arrested in this particular place and i have to say okay. Where when what can you tell me. i'd have to go. Look up the court records all of those things and try to make sure that the timelines never since then it's been like i. You know these women are lying and they deserve boulevard. The more pilcher investigated the deeper ties into the portsmouth. Legal system grew. We reported several times. The women were saying that moran would brag about his relationship with former scioto county commonplace court judge william marshall now william marshal was one of the marshall boys the in his brother where the son of the former judge marshall in that county so they'll marshall took his dad's place as one of two commonplace courts judges which oversees all the serious cases and all the felonies and all the high end civil cases at a county level. It's an elected position. There were allegations that iran was guiding them to have relations or go to parties with judge william marshal. It should be noted that judge. William marshall has staunchly denied these allegations or any illicit ties to michael moran. Though a judge is mentioned in the affidavit marshall has repeatedly insisted he is not the judge referred to as working in collusion with moran and has not been charged in connection with that probe but the allegations made by area. Women didn't stop at a local judge. One of the women who did go on the record for that first story told us that she partied with the former police chief. She partied with former members of the police department. All because moran said it up these women came forward and said these guys used their position to either traffic me. One lady got sent up to chicago not knowing what she was getting into and then turned into a prostitute up there and then other women were talking about how the probation department is brother. The guy ran. The probation department was using his position to lessen her probation. That's how deep this went. One of the best lawyers in a politician and a sitting judge all possibly involved in this network. And that's when we knew we needed to get more women who had been through this experience to talk about what they'd been through the following audio interview the cincinnati enquirer did with women named heather boots. She claimed to have been a sex trafficking victim in portsmouth. She went on the record about her. Alleged association with michael moran many lives for decade because the judges is the corruption thorough. All of its in fact any any house in a sale. That will tell you everything like it's seek james. Pilcher began further exploring the megan lancaster case. Katie lancaster thanks very strongly. That michael moran lured meghan into this life. And it's his fault. She's dead or missing now whether he actually was directly involved all we know she left behind a heck of a lot of notes about oliver different liaisons and all the people she would go to for money she kept all of it. Katie founded chess copies of everything. We called every single number in that some people acknowledge yeah about sex and she became like a slew of women went missing or got killed. Were addicted prostitutes. Sex workers up in ross county in chillicothe iw which is two counties to the north. I mean we're talking. Does dozen more win so meghan. A lot of people theorize the meghan might have been wrapped up in something that got those women killed by. There's a lot of thought. And there's a lot of Theory or rumor that no that that was separate from what happened to her and what happened to her points back to possibly michael. Marine michael moran has denied any involvement or responsibility and meghan lancaster's disappearance moran has stated numerous times and interviews that the only involvement he had with making lancaster was in the case involving a former client. Where lancaster acted as an informant. He has said that he had no other relationship with her and that she did not work for him. Additionally authorities have not brought any charges against him in the case at this time it's unclear whether they have questioned him in the matter throughout twenty nineteen cincinnati inquirer published a series of articles by james pilcher and his colleagues about michael moran and his alleged ties to human trafficking. Everything that was in that affidavit. We reported it out as outrageous as it sounds allegations that he was running women all over the country. He was promising women drugs for sex. He had relationships with judges and with members of law enforcement all of it so those allegations all of this is in the federal document and yet they never moved on moran now the. Da says we ended all the stuff about human trafficking over the fbi. Says we're not going to comment on any potential ongoing investigation so you can see how frustrated we were with like okay. Why doesn't anybody move on him. What's going on here bob. Strictly shared pictures frustration. Very important thing that the press does when they're when it's done well is is to shine lights in you know and to offer a vehicle for those people stepping forward right. Do you find a sense of kind of responsibility of making sure. Those those voices are heard. What set this one apart was just the amount of women at stepped forward and said something about this to us talk to us about it and then also the apparatus that has to exist around a person michael moran for an operation as we reported on to exist in the first place a lot of people have turn their heads kinda damn ability of people who just turn the other way. Don't care about what's going on right in front of them in their communities more prevalent than maybe we all realised initially going to take a quick break. Here we'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. 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Track down michael moran to get his side of the story moran vehemently denied all the allegations about being involved in any prostitution or sex trafficking rings up. Talk to michael moran three times at length and we. I talked to him i said. Are you a sex trafficker. People have said your sex trafficking it says here in this affidavit your sex trafficker what do you say to that. She tried to play the dumb country lawyer. The following is an audio recording from that interview. With michael moran. I don't even know. What a kimmy. The definition of a sex trafficker. So then we get all these women lined up. We come back home and say okay. We've got these women now saying that you're the guy and he says okay and then he was more angry. He would not go on camera with a second time during one conversation pilcher. S moran specifically about making. Lancaster moran denied being her pimp or being involved in any of that kind of activity but when james pilcher brought up the possible whereabouts of megan lancaster. He got a shocking response. Pilcher related the story to producer. Jeff shane a joke with me. Hey maybe she's in my basement. Maybe she's in my backyard. He thinks that the joke because he knows what the rumors are late. What you so. You asked him directly about it absolutely. I said you have anything to do with meghan lancaster and he said no. But you can check my basement. everybody else wants to. You can check out back. He said i. I've invited the cops in to take a look. Well i'm not going to surmise whether he's trying to get away with anything because i i don't know whether or not he had anything to do with her disappearance. I really don't are reporting. Didn't lead down those path. But he had this attitude that he thought he was smarter than you that he thought he was smarter than anybody. And i think what probably from my reporting in my history on all this is a. I read a lot of stuff about him and leading up to them and i'd see stories here and there but nobody but nikki blankenship kept adam. Nobody kept on him. And i can tell you that we never went away. The photographer person that i worked with was always in the courtroom blogging. Blogging him. That she was there was always taking pictures or getting video of him in action in the courtroom. We never went away. In twenty twenty authorities finally made their move phillies rated. The home of a well known lawyer suspected of running a national sex trafficking ring for years march twenty fifth state and local police raid. Michael moran's house with a search warrant in dave used. the attorney general was personally present for that enforcement. When you get the state attorney general showing up to serve a search warrant. You know that there are some very important people watching this. I'm looking at the story. I did and you can see. Iran is sitting on his porch in his stocking feet while police are searching his office. Slash house now. The thing you've got to remember too which is interesting is brick two story house. It sits on the corner right across from the courthouse and right across catty-cornered from the local prosecutor's office. So he literally can walk back and forth from his house. Slash office to the courtroom and walk right in front of the prosecutor's office. Just seven months later it all came crashing down for michael moran longtime defense lawyer and former city councilman has been arrested in an alleged sex trafficking operation friday october. Twenty third to twenty twenty state and local police teamed up in arrested. michael moran. this comes nearly seven years. After that initial affidavit issued by the da for nikki blankenship. It was a day that marks the culmination of years of tireless work and a victory for dozens of portsmouth women. When my father was arrested october twice he was arrested on the eighteen charges that included sex trafficking racketeering telling 'em promoting prostitution when that came out. That was a real exciting day for me. I was screaming iran screaming. Because i worry that no one was ever gonna check. No one was really ever gonna look into it. I really worry. I know that the cincinnati inquirer they had to do their own investigation but it was approximately a year before they started releasing things and when they release things. I still didn't know anything was ever going to happen. And so finally i was like okay. At least somebody's finally checking. Did it kind of validate journey started on. Yeah yeah it definitely did. There are also a lot of people who are saying. He's a great man. And i worried about that. I'm like did i make a mistake. Am i wrong. And there's no way. I have seen that i i was at this point. I'm like i have so much evidence. But still i can't. I don't want to hurt anyone's life. So yeah i was like okay. Something i it was valid and everything i have time for for a decade is olive yeah katie. Lancaster also felt a great sense of relief and was struck by the uncanny timing of miranda arrest. Maria was arrested october. Third twenty twenty the day before megan's thirty third birthday. I mean i was on my way to columbus not jumped out the damn car while it was moving. I couldn't speak. I couldn't talk. Couldn't tell anybody what was going on. I was just like oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Like i just couldn't believe it and four to happen the day that it did it was almost like a sense of okay now i know this is a god thing like this happened the day before. Megan's birthday almost eight years into it like it could not have come at a better time. It was like oh my gosh we did it. We got this far. Megan look what you have done like. I just wanted five minutes. Heard say that she's done. Let's stop here for another quick break. 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After his arrest michael moran appeared in court it was arraigned on october. Twenty six pled not guilty and then he posted a three hundred thousand dollar barn and was released five days after his duress he was also suspended by the state bar association so he's not allowed to practice law at all both from the bar perspective but also from his bond agreement but that didn't stop moran from trying to pull off an audacious legal maneuver so michael marina actually initially filed to defend himself in court. He had the intimate knowledge things that these women would never want to know publicly and he he could cross examine them on the witness stand so i actually talked to the attorney general about this and he said there's no way that we're going to let them do that. They strongly strongly objected. And moran is since Backed off of that. He hired attorney. It didn't take long for moran to violate his bond agreement. As it turns out moran represented somebody against the court order he represented somebody municipal court and file paperwork for somebody in municipal court in portsmouth. As part of his bond agreement he was supposed to have not represented anybody now state attorney general's under the direction of dave ios. The state attorney. General is prosecuting. This case against moran in association with a prosecutor. Shane team so when they got this day immediately filed with the court to have his bond agreement revoked. And i'll take anything seriously. And don't know i don't think the court is really pushing him to have to take any of this very serious either because they even though he violated the conditions of his bond instead of sending him back to jail. They believe on house arrest. Currently michael moran is awaiting trial though. A date has not been set. He continues to maintain his innocence. If these allegations proven true. This wasn't a one-off you did this many times. It was part of a network but this was a part of a repeating pattern of criminal activity. He's looking at seventy years or more. If convicted in their concurrent sentences. I think in small communities like in southern ohio and there's just been beaten with poverty and drug addiction and and so many things. I think that it is so easy to feel helpless and powerless against these kind of the lake. My night this can get by with us and do whatever they want. And i think people and areas prey on the community areas like this. I think i've always said that. All the way down to the drug epidemic. That people come in offering to help and really. They're just looking out. they can profit. And as a lot of wilson sheep's clothing at me very hard to trust your officials your local government your local law enforcement because those people are supposed to be there to help you. They promised to be there to help you end to fight these problems with you and really. They're taking advantage in and property as much as they possibly can also be issues that the rest of us after bottle every day. If megan was sitting in front of you right now what would you say to say to her again. We love you so much and we've missed you so bad and a little boy. He's wonderful boys. Doing grays doing great. Thanks just like you are key play scorch. it's like q. did you need to know. Great things of the rate changes that you've known saudi county and in ohio and in the world for that matter. Your story is reese london in what you've done great things and you will continue to do them because i will continue to for you and we love you and we miss you always journalists and their end up reporting played immensely important role in exposing the michael moran story however as we've progressed through this series. We've often wondered how our storytelling impacts the legacy of cases like the road and murders their families and the pike county community in general so in the next episode we delve into our societies current fascination with true crime stories and our role and responsibility in covering them. We were talking about the media machine and entertainment versus covering true crime. Their compelling stories. And i think we are seekers of truth. How did this happen. That's why we rubbernecking car accidents. I've interviewed crime victims for i mean the totality of my career. The flip side of you know hoping we help people give them an ear is also being really careful that we don't do further harm and that's the thing i worry about and i know we can do better more on that next time for more information on the case and relevant photos follow us on instagram. At kt underscore studios the pike and massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves the pike and massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows shell brothers is now building new homes in ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything. Shop brothers has to offer visit us today. At shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment only switching to gyco is a good idea especially when you consider everything first off gyco makes it easy to switch. 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michael moran moran portsmouth megan lancaster william marshal ohio cincinnati inquirer iheartradio meghan lancaster james pilcher dr lori katie studios pilcher lavar courtney armstrong katy studios stephanie lie fbi jeff shane
Episode 5- Air & Opportunity

The Piketon Massacre

37:34 min | 1 year ago

Episode 5- Air & Opportunity

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Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the pike and massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios in april. Two thousand sixteen when eight members of the road and family were murdered in their homes. The media descended on the sleepy town of piped-in ohio clearly shaken after this morning's multiple homicides people in this small community being told to be on alert tonight as news of the unthinkable and gruesome killings spread. The small rural communities left reeling and rumors began swirling murder. Scenes are now advancing. The theory killings could be related to a drug cartel. Authorities aren't commenting on whether they had any potential suspects all the bad stuff in the big cities but the devil works in neverwhere but in the aftermath of the arrests of six members of the wagner family attention turns to the very people responsible for the investigation. There was this belief among almost everybody. I talk to about incompetence when it came to law enforcement in that county. There's nobody watching the watchers in these small communities in many cases that can lead to major corruption in the dark secrets of a once. Quiet town or slowly brought to light. There's been a lot of murder here that have not been fall. But if i say what. I think i could probably end up in the river. This is the pike massacre episode five air and opportunity in the days after the killings the road and murderers became an international headline and it was a sensational story. A series of murders multiple potential motives. All taking place in a small town in ohio. I'm courtney armstrong tv producer at studios. Where i work with stephanie. Decker and jeff shane. We've been following the case for a long time and through. The course of our investigation learned that the town of piked in ohio has its own story to tell journalists chef. Winkler wrote about the story for the website the outline. He told me about his impressions of the initial. Reporting coming out of piped-in it was a big media story for about two weeks. And you know everybody from all over came to cover it. All of the world and water people have been similarly executed in the middle of appalachia and no one knew what was going on. I mean i grew up in the ozarks in arkansas. And these are people. I feel familiar with you. Know when i go up to new york california. That's like a disneyland And it's a strange will. They're in place. These these areas in and folks like this are not bill wilderness to me in the same way that they worked the people who came down and covered the story. Originally you need to get a lot of talk of look at these people. Smoking in you know wearing cammo and you know a lot of gawky. Just the sort of quotes from sad sort of backwoods people how they're perceived And that's that's just not where i come from But i think the thing that stood out for me was just how human everyone was heighten resident. Angie montgomery shared her view of the media coverage with producer. Jeff shane how do you think pike like the pike county. Generally gus has been portrayed in the media. I don't think they've been very kind to us. I've a lot of reports where they call us an educated Hill billy just dumb and think we're doing they think We're a bunch of inbred. I've actually seen that in some reports and and it's bad while it's easy for some to view the town piped-in through this kind of provincial. Almost stereotypical lands. It's not what we found. We visited the area. It's pretty far removed from the big cities of ohio. It's about an hour and a half south from columbus an hour and a half east of cincinnati and just under thirty minutes from the ohio river which basically separates southern ohio from northeastern kentucky. There's a walmart. There's a restaurant. There used to be great dive bar that has since closed. I believe and look for the twenty. Two hundred residents piked in his home. Native barbara in jaffa actually spoke a bit about that when we were there pike considered a village and it is a small just a small little town that has a grocery store and a pizza shop and gas stations. And there's a tire shop. People sitting talk at the gas station wherever wherever they go they people know each other and they just sit and talk. You know at the tire shop. You're waiting for a oil and oil change or whatever you the sit there and chat with your neighbor. Whoever happens to come in you probably know who it is. You know somebody everywhere or you know somebody that knows somebody everywhere anywhere you go. I imagine that is probably like sometimes kind of enjoyable. And then other times it's probably pretty maddening. Yes sometimes people know. When when i spend the day in my pool or when when i skip a day if i if there's a day goes by i don't get my full next time i see someone else say. How come you weren't bull the other day so it's crazy the majority of people. We spoke with depicted piked in this way small town. Usa everyone knows everyone. Nobody ever locked their doors growing up but when we started to pull back the curtain it was clear. That piped-in harbored some dark secrets secrets. That didn't start with the rodents. it seems like there's two sides of piped-in which is one is like the blue collar hard workers who you know. Want to raise their families the right way and yet somehow something horrible still did happen to this town. I think it's like every town you're gonna that wherever you go. There's going to be the ugly part. pike. Dan how's it. Jeff spoke to stefan a former piped and resident. Who had recently left town. She shared barbara sentiments about the community. I want to ask you so you. Now you're in florida and you're away from piped-in and all of this but it still seems like it's very much a part of your dna right. I haven't been home since july a year before last since one thousand eighteen and i i just. I don't know if i'll ever really like go back and live there and her. You know if you look back through the history piked and you know. There's there's quite a bit of things that just happen you know. There's no explanation for get swept under the rug. I don't know. I think there's more evil there than the just what happened to those eight stephens remarks left us unsettled but when we followed up with investigative reporter bar. He seemed to corroborate her thoughts with some troubling stories. He had heard during his time covering the road. In case this was national news the day the day after a few days after it happened but you know as it typically happens with the new cycles the national folks move onto the next big story we were left with that and we will get emails and consequential our phone call about new information. Is there anything to know. And there was nothing to nose. Slow boss came to me and said hey. Can you go over and start digging into this and see. If there's anything at all that we could find out. I was in pike county a lot and i kept getting stories about other homicides in pike county i thought man if there were that many homicides in a county this small. There could be something here that we don't yet know it's taking a look through. His research showed to discovered that there have been at least three recent cases in by county involving multiple homicides cases like the january twenty sixteen murderers of candace newsom and her teenage daughter christina. They're both shot execution style in their home. Police finally did arrest. Newsome's neighbor for their murders and twenty nineteen neighbor christian are davis was indicted by a grand jury but did not plea nor has he been convicted. But there was plenty of chatter on social media. None of which can be confirmed mentioning the possibility of an accomplice to the murders still at large. Kansas new sister darla has even spoken publicly. She thinks that her sister and nieces murder may be related to the rodin's stating that. They ran in the same circles. What struck me about. Kansas and christina was just the fact the similarities between just the idea that in the middle of the night. These people were gunned down in the in their homes while they slept. Just it is striking before even any other details. Just hearing matt when you wrote. In case like whoa. That's weird fifteen minutes away. It's the same exact style of murder. Yes it was just so odd that you had that type of crime it happening in a place like that. Then in april twenty sixteen just weeks before the rodents were killed. Douglas edman and caroline and tomlinson were shot execution style in their home according to jodi bar. One detail of the crime struck a familiar chord double homicide four children left alive. This is very similar to the road. In case i mean again. It's a striking coincidence. That in the same area this is happening in the same month. You know the same month and year that the roads murdered this also happened. That's what led us down the path of even looking at these cases because we had heard that there were other people who were shot no the night execution style in their homes. And you're looking at the road in case and then you see these other cases in a county that small you start asking yourself what the hell is going on because this it doesn't make sense and this is happening there unless there is some sort of common denominator and it's still hard to believe today that there were these types of murders that took place in a county so small with so few people living in it. I mean you don't hear about the big cities and then you sit back and you wonder to yourself what is going on. I mean why is this happening. Fortunately police arrested. Douglas eastman's uncle charles. And his cousin james allen on suspicion of douglas and caroline's murder each faces twenty to fifty years or life in prison with enhanced sentencing for capital offenses also a possibility. The pair were indicted but have not pled or been convicted. The case is ongoing. According to investigators it was a drug related killing the motive for candace and christina newsome's murders however remains unclear but beyond the methods of these killings. There's another thing that jodi told us about the ties them altogether then. In some cases people get away with it for extended periods of time. Candice newsom enter a teenage daughter christina. It took four years. Four charged a neighbor of family friend with murder in that in four years and the alleged perpetrator in that case. Is what a next door neighbor. And it took four years the piece that together. It's just you wonder. Pike county if people were getting good at committing crimes particularly getting away with it. One case that remains unsolved is a two thousand and six murder of thirty four year. Old curtis francis and thirty year old jennifer forget kurt francis and jennifer et both shot and killed in their beds in their homes in the middle of the night. And you know what. I'm looking through these incident reports of these murders. Whoa this sounds very similar to the road case. Two people shot in their bed in their homes in the middle of the night. And i thought this is. This is what we need to pursue. But no one would talk. We could find out any information. All the search warrants were sealed at the courthouse. And there's absolutely no arrest ten years later. There's nothing here we are today. Still nothing we're gonna data and may never be solved and unfortunately there are other cases like that or that just did get the. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Look into your kids. A break from screens tribe. Tanna pinna is the only audio streaming service that combines thousands of podcast episodes audio books and music for kids three to twelve all in one place that means no unwanted ads and no screens giving you peace of mind while they listen. Keep your kids entertained from breakfast. 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It's the way that's why modus was honored by washington post as best place to buy a diamond check out reviews at moves diamonds dot com again. That's modus diamonds dot com. Let's take one quick step back for a minute and really look at the curtis francis and jennifer brigade case. That's the couple who was also shot in their home while they slept in two thousand and six. The only lived about fifteen minutes down the road from the road property. Fifteen minutes into this day. That case remains unsolved for. Angie montgomery curtis francis. Cousin remains a devastating memory without closure she spoke to jeff about it. I was shocked. That i had never even heard curtis jennifer's case because it's a pretty egregious that this happened and it unsolved and it just seems crazy that another in such a small community that something like this could happen again and so what i would love to do. Maybe it would be to like walk. Through kurt and johnny's case and kind of like explain who they were and any of the facts that you know about the case. Well i'm curtis very hard working good guy. Levy stanley loved hunting and animal and fishing and all that stuff and he would help anybody and he was very protective. That's one word to use to describe him. Very protective of the people we loved. Jimmy was the good girl is always taking care of others. I think they just Got messed up with the wrong people. The wrong people referring to our local drug dealers. Most of the crime that happens around here like Car tests and breaking and entering and things like that or is from drugs. There's a huge problem with opioids in methamphetamine. Here huge and that probably does play a part in every almost every murder. This happened probably in the past ten years. I think the people that killed my cousin lived. I think four or five minutes up the road from current ginny they were big drug dealers and Curtis didn't some money supposedly for marijuana. So you feel like you know who did it. I don't wanna be that person. But i'm i'm pretty blunt an upfront and the law enforcement. Here they have mishandled curtains genie's case from the rip when ngos law enforcement she's talking about the pike county sheriff's office the same agency heavily involved in conducting the rodent murder investigation in twenty sixteen. A plumber discovered a well that had seemed to have been mysteriously hidden with rocks and dirt. It was on a property that according to eyewitnesses was the last place. Curtis francis was seen on the night of his murder. The pike county sheriff's office was called into investigate officers lowered. Plumbers drained camera into the well and discovered what appeared to be burned clothes and a gun. It was a dirty at thirty six was at the bottom of the well in Pistol that was taken the night of the murders. And that's what they were. Shot with a thirty six curtin jenny with a potential murder weapon. Line just thirty feet down a well. The pike county sheriff's office decided to use a curious tactic to recover the gun. They called in a fire truck to pump water into the well to try. And push the firearm back up out of the well shaft so investigators could get their hands on it. It did not go as planned. They bleed water down the whale which in turn made the ground break puzzle the force of you know a fire hose can blow the skin off of So many did that. This is what they told us that happened when they did that. It busted the grand loose. The guns went down into the ground and that they don't have the money or the equipment to get them out so hired a guy to seal the well shut. He's a welder. He welded the well shut. And that was it. I think after this fiasco with the guns in the well when the guns were found and how they handled that situation in handled the possible murder weapon. I think they're ashamed and they should be. They took hardly the only hope. We have of any type of physical evidence in blue ridge. Another means basically. And nothing's been done with it with curtis jennifer's case go and cold andy decided to pursue the killers herself. I've spent years and years. I've got file after file after file of things i've done i've actually went and got names. I'm went and talk to people. Well i'm just going to be honest with you. I've done with the police. I've tried to do what the police haven't done. Which is talked to people get information you know get date get time. Get people talking you know. Oh you think. Kurt that day okay. Who was with him. What was his demeanor things like that. There's eyewitness statement and I've tried my best to get somebody or anybody just to listen. It's pretty cut and dry. You know i've had a few people out of state that are like retired homicide investigators and stuff look at the case and tell me that they can't for the life in them figure out why there hasn't been interesting for the town that we you know the size of our town. There's been a lot of murders here that have not been fault. It's ridiculous but if i say what. I think i could probably end up in the river. According to jodi bar angie's thoughts about the pike county sheriff's office shared by many in the community. The impression i got from the people. Pike county when i was working there covering the road murders. There was this belief among almost everybody. I talked to about incompetence when it came to law enforcement in that county in the lack of that sheriff's office ability to do a large scale murder investigation carry that through till prosecution and the man at the head of the pike. County sheriff's office is none other than sheriff charles reader. You've heard about share frito. Before he's the officer. Who stated he would stop at nothing to solve the rodents case. I've got a message for the killers. We will find you the family of the victims. We'll have justice one day to a lot of people watching these news. Conferences readers passionate campaign for justice was admirable but to journalists like jeff. Winkler readers determination belied his mishandling of the road. An investigation from the very start was the largest mass murderer In ohio's history and law enforcement beginning a local law enforcement was always comically inept to handle such a large and bloody incident. They just they were equipped to handle it from the very beginning the investigation and they bungled a lawn stuff. Rights on the get go was one all after another nearly a month. After the bodies were found sheriff reader had key pieces of evidence including the rodents mobile homes and automobiles moved to a warehouse in the nearby town of waverley. Jody bar was on the scene and told jeff what he saw. So i'm out of the warehouse where they moved these vehicles the equipment from all the road and properties where they moved the four vogel homes where these murders happened. There's a large fence around this huge outdoor lot and it is full of cars at atv's farm equipment backhoes huge trailers so as a reporter with at least a a small knowledge of the chain of custody of evidence. I know that with all this evidence. Just fifty yards away from me that you've got to have it's secured somehow there's gotta be a peace officer someone there with a gun and a badge swore swear an oath to uphold the laws and constitution that state of ohio. They're guarding that. That was not the case. Yes this it's largest in criminal nessin in the state's history right and the main evidence is not getting watched. There was no one in that parking lot watching that evidence so we drive up to a warehouse. And you're looking. There's nothing between you and hundreds of pieces of evidence except aaron opportunity if that doesn't raise a red flag. I don't think you're doing your job. I knew at that point in time that there was something to explore here because potentially this evidence if it's unguarded they can't establish a chain of custody. This entire education could be jeopardized. So that's why we took him. We took mike allen the former hamilton county district attorney. We took him to pike county. I call us that. Hey i want to take you to county. Here's what i found. I don't want to show you what found yet. I just want to take you to this. And you give me your impressions of what we see there through the eyes of a prosecutor. Here's mike allen. Jody was on this thing like white on rice. And i went up their wedding. And that's what i noticed too and you've got it seems to me. It was close to thirty forty. Maybe even fifty vehicles that had a fence around them. Well that's fine but it would've taken an old man like me about ten seconds to climb over that fence and take something out of one of those vehicles plant. something put something in one of the vehicles it just. It just was not done right. I mean anybody involved in launch worship from that first week that you're at the police academy you learned that you must preserve the evidence and you must preserve that chain of custody of the evidence. And i don't know what if anything they pulled out of any of those cars spot. If i were defending this case and they tried to introduce any of that evidence i i would be all over. I would move to the evidence excluded because it just was not properly secured Sogeti began preparing a report about the evidence fiasco for news station fox nineteen and cincinnati soon after jody and his crew were approached by sheriff charles reader who presented them with a curious offer. The sheriff's office declined to comment. But here is jody side of the story. He tried to make a deal with us to to not ear that that warehouse story and the deal was that he was going to give us his unfettered access. Where we can do this. First hundred hours with charlie reader after he learned the murders. If we wouldn't do this that always still sits me today. It pissed me off then. Because i'm like what. What do you think we are. We don't make deals masataka for an hour. You got in the car. We're what the hell does happen. Never have we ever experienced that. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment to show you how easy it is to file a claim with geico. We hired a soap opera star. Gracious me my car has storm damage. And i had to file a claim. Could it possibly get worse when my claims team leave me for someone else. Someone less intense. No actually when you file a claim with geico you get your own dedicated claims team. Who promises to stay with you throughout the process. I've never known such loyalty. I can't wait for the second season. Geico great service without all the drama. Look staying healthy isn't easy watching your diet hitting the gym avoiding stress. A good night's rest helps boost your overall health and wellness and it couldn't be easier. The new sleep number three sixty smart pet is the only that effortlessly adjusts in response to both of you result. You wake up ready for anything. Proven quality sleep is life changing sleep and now the new queen sleep number three sixty five. Smart bet is only seventeen ninety nine. Save six hundred dollars. Only limited time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com And june twenty nine thousand nine reader was indicted on eight felonies and misdemeanors. These felony charges are not directly related to the an investigation. He was accused of conflict of interest theft in office and tampering with evidence among other nefarious activities according to reports that are also allegedly stole cash seized from drug arrest to fund a gambling problem. Here's investigative journalist james filter. Yeah he had a gambling addiction and he decided all use my own off forces money to feed it Yeah Man in places like this. And i'm not gonna say it's necessarily a lack of journalistic outlets keeping tabs or whatever but there's no accountability. There's nobody watching the watchers in these small communities and in many cases that can lead to major corruption. It's definitely worth noting that sheriff reader has pleaded not to all of these charges however jody bar. It's just another surreal events too. It seems like a never ending. Bizarre story rear was shoulder to shoulder with mike. Dewine the now governor who is then the attorney general when when these murders happened they together. We're updating the nation about what happened here in in those days after the murders and where you're going is this real than you read. What the guy who alleged and you read what the grand jury handed up. And then you know you just have to assume if a grand jury is heading up a document that there's been an investigation conducted there have been facts gathered. A prosecutor has reviewed that i mean. Ev it's tampering in tampering with records. You're talking about a guy who led the sheriff's office and who for a time a moment in time when this first happened. These murders i happen. Who's also leading that investigation until the state came in and took it over. You just sit back ago. Let's see where this ends. I mean pike. County has been crazy ride ever since the end of april twenty sixteen. And it's still right now. You've got people awaiting trial base in the death penalty on eight murders. The sheriff indicted removed from office. It has been an absolutely crazy half a decade. They're still the people of pipes and are torn about cherif reader. He puts his town before him. He cared about pike county. Here's road family friend. Brittany talking to stephanie. Lie decker if it wasn't for him. He for charlie reader. They wouldn't of came close to even finding out about the wagner's honestly. That's my opinion. How come because he worked his ass off to find like that's all he did was investigate all of that what. He didn't like it in like he's done his job like he went in. You know like he was doing really well and bike. County like keeping the Getting the drugs off the streets and whatnot but he's still made effort a lot lot of effort into the rodent case. Charlie had dedicated himself to getting justice for the road and family and then he got booted not that long ago. Apparently he was taking the money from the road in case for gambling. But honestly i don't believe it because know i just don't believe that they just were finding reasons to get him out of office. Angie gumri holds a much different view of sheriff reader. He's blaming his gambling habits on because the the the rodent crime scenes have haunting so much. She couldn't sleep so he would go gamble charlie thirty years and he thinks gambling way before this happened. And that's just that just to me shows you his character. You know i'm gonna. I'm gonna use the death of eight people to try to smooth over but i'm still a money off my county and gambling and that is discussing to me i. I just think there's a lot of dirty deeds. That going around here. And i think that they will do anything making keep them covered up. Do we have a lot of crime here because the drugs do. We have a lot of Drug activity here. Yes way more than there was fifteen years ago. Is it safe here. I'm more scared of law enforcement than i am of the people that killed my cousin. You're afraid to say anything when in all reality. Yeah some things are out there that you think 'cause you go down a tunnel rabbit holes when when you talk to three hundred people like i have over the course of two and two years you find a lot of crap and it does take you down this rabbit hole. Is it true. You don't know if i got. It looks like something isn't right. County is it's beautiful. As far as landscape beautiful place were full farmers and just down to earth people. But there's a lot of dirty people here to and most of them are in power so with sheriff readers ethics being brought into question. Does this impact the charges brought against the wagner's. Here's jeff winkler again. I would assume the charges against reader the felonies and misdemeanors about being treated through corrupts when it came to both law enforcement and financial dealings. Yeah i would assume this is going to affect a lot of things in fact the Prosecutor for the titan area. Also just resigned. This makes you start thinking about everything that helped getting now. You're seeing these charges. And and these resignations ends. You know it doesn't speak well about finding any answers to this thing. Every answer we get about what happened to the road and seems to leave more questions. So how through. All of these other crimes did officials zero in. On the wagner's police received over eleven hundred tips. They conducted over five hundred interviews tested about seven hundred pieces of evidence that serve close to two hundred search warrants subpoenas and other things so this was something that was huge. So when you read these indictments They were talking about the wackos. Move even months before these murders happen. Four months to plan this out. I mean that's every day from four months. That's the full time. Job there hacking computers and surveillance cameras on this property. If we are to believe that the prosecution has alleged. this paints a very dark. Everybody has argued basically attacking then the community Accusing them of murdering those people on one day she was. I can't believe they just won't leave us alone. They just will not leave us alone. Were starting to get really worried that we're going to be arrested more to come next week. Massacre is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane and andrew. Becker the pipe massacre is a production of iheartradio. Kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows love can make you stupid so think smart about her dream. Diamond before you take the plunge visit mervyn's diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is the region's first choice. At mervyn's you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and with a leading designer rings from tacori verragio. You know why. Movers was honored by washington. Post as best place to buy a diamond check. Our views at movers. Diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamond. Dot com mattress. Warehouse knows that buying a mattress can be tough with so many choices. Where do you start introducing bed match a patented diagnostic system. That determines your pressure points and recommends the mattresses that are best for your individual sleep needs and it's found only at mattress warehouse. Come try that match at a mattress warehouse near you. Visit sleep happens dot com for locations and get free next day delivery on select purchases man house peppers dot com.

pike county sheriff's office ohio pike county curtis francis curtis jennifer reese jones Lost hills katie studios courtney armstrong jeff shane christina Angie montgomery Jeff shane Native barbara california candace newsom Winkler Douglas edman jodi bar
Episode 6- The Victims Need a Voice

The Piketon Massacre

38:58 min | 3 months ago

Episode 6- The Victims Need a Voice

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So sign up online advance. Your career with courses from management concepts get a catalog management concepts dot com or call eight three three five seven eight eighty four sixty six welcome to the massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios. A lot of what i do is i can tiptoe into people's tragedy but i get to pull my toes out as opposed to the families who their entire lives. Are you know shattered. And in some cases destroyed and decimated which certainly happened in this case but as the story unfolded as we started piecing together things and talking with family members and law enforcement and people in the community became clear to me. I guess this a special place. This is the perfect massacre returned. Pike county season two episode six. The victims need a voice. I'm cording armstrong a television producer. Kt studios with stephanie decker. And jeff shane the day. That eight members of the rodent family were found murdered. Journalists chris graves began covering the story for the cincinnati enquirer. Her insight is crucial as she spoke with members of the victims families. The rodents manley's gillies in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's the only journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the wagner family. Just weeks after the rodents were found dead grave sat down with jake wagner who has now pled guilty and has accused mother angela. We finally got chris graves to sit down for an interview after many tries. She speaking out now because she feels it's imperative that the victims have a voice in this story. This is highly significant due to the current gag. orders here. She is speaking to our producer. Also named chris graves. When did you. First hear about the road murders. So i i heard about the crime the friday and which it broke. I saw a tweet. As i recall in the first news of this was there were people dead in pike county and that the police were beginning to investigate so my news instincts kicked him. And then i texted our editors and said this is our story. This is what i was thinking. Multiple people found dead in more than one location along. Union hill road in piked. In this morning. I two pm. Investigators say they found eight people dead seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy all from the rodent family shooter or shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody right now. Whoever they are They were trying to possibly wipe out this entire family. I was trying to get somebody. Who's on the ground. Who has is who can help you as a reporter because when stories like this begin to unfold. There's just so much you don't know you don't know anything. There was a church right across from union hill road and i managed to get reverend fill on the phone and i just started interviewing him and during the course of that conversation i could hear the reverend fulton talking with what appeared to be a family member who turned out to be leonard manley. Leonard is the father of dana manley road and also the grandfather of cana. Roden chris junior and l. advocates. So i asked him if he could quit. Leonard manley on the phone and he did and that was the first time i talked with a family member. He was able to tell me in that conversation who they believed had been killed and it was his daughter who found the first four victims. Who made the first nine one one call which we've occurred. I was trying to on the phone piece together. Who all these people. What their relationships were who were they. What were the relationships. It was certainly horrific and tragic hiked in small community where everyone knows everyone and as you can imagine. The town is just stunned shock. Thinking about the whole family realized it is hardly. it's such a useless tragedy but you stone understand why it happened here. Pinch me wake me at times. I'll wake up dream on april. Twenty four th twenty sixteen. Chris graves made her way to pike county. That church became a place for both law enforcement and the family together. And i asked the reverend fulton if i could attend his church service on sunday which is what i did. I went down into church and listen to his sermon. What was that sermon like. On that sunday it's a small church. It's not a big church. Pastor fulton sort of lives in the community has lived in the community sort of grew up there. He had preached there for forty three years. He talked a lot about this. Is what a church does. It's you know it's a shelter. A refuge A safe haven an dark storm. He talked about the need for the community to come together and support family. There was a lot of singing. Turn to the scriptures for inspiration on solace. He talked a lot about and what evil would descend to do. This small country church just up the way north of thirty to helping some of the family and friends as they come to grips with a unspeakable event. Can you describe the evil committed this i. I don't think you can really describe. It is just unbelievable. These things that's happening going on at such tragedies like this we should not have you were faced with this giant puzzle. Very tragic puzzle that you were trying to put together so that others could learn what possibly happened right. You're trying to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who is in a relationship. With whom and our these people connected what could have happened. Where did they work. What's all the you know prior criminal history of everybody and you're sort of left as a reporter too. I mean really kind of do knock on doors talk to people. Try to figure out you know. Talk to the people who who are closest to the information and begin to sort of piece stuff together. And what was the result of. I think this part of america gets a little bit of a wrap that it's a very and it is. It is insular but it's also kind people were were kind when they maybe shouldn't have been you know at least to me and i just i really just wanted to understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. So i spent hours sometimes. Oftentimes interviewing not just family members but people who lived down the road and across the way. And you know the the library in. And i mean all kinds of you know certainly the sheriff and the attorney general and all of that people call it and we did a to the road in case of the road and certainly their family lost the most people which sounds horrific even to say i mean i just like there's no good words for any of this but i mean they're three family units the manley's gillies and the rodin's hannah kelly is a little often turned into a road in or footnote right. We don't get to explore the world nearly enough and that's the other thing i think about hannah hazel. That's what they call him. He's guilty to make a distinction between. Hannah may road you know she became. I think by default a rodent so when we first started writing. I did think about that like how we're sort of saying. Well let's rodents. And i thought well she's essentially a road. I mean she was engaged to frankie. They were gonna get married. Had a child together. She lived for her son was really into nursing in the health of him and was trying to eat healthy to graduated from high. School was totally in. Love with frankie. They were you know. It's everything building a life. Her south as a road having said that she still gilly amount of devastation. To essentially three families all of whom live in close proximity to each other and their their families are in have been in various stages differently intertwined and the ripple effect of that and the children which is what hit me the hardest. I'm a mother two and the idea that there were three very small children at the crime scenes and they were found alive and physically unharmed resonated with me ohio attorney general. Mike dewine giving an update. Three children did survive a four day. Old a six month old and a three year old. I think what makes us. grisly Is the fact that you have these children involved Who obviously were there when executions took place. You know it's heartbreaking. I mean you know the one mom apparently was was killed with the four day old right there. I mean it's you know. But just how is hard to believe. Then i went and did my first column and i just went driving pike county. It's pretty rolling hills. It's absolutely beautiful and it was starting to warm up. Things were beginning to bloom. There were fields of yellow and purple. I mean it just. It was just absolutely beautiful. All of the things is that as someone who looks for ways in which to tell stories you look for as this county was going through. Its spring rebirth. It struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort of these beautiful fields of yellow flowers. And i just could not get those three children head. And i just started looking out and i started to cry truthfully and sorta became. I don't know overwhelmed. But i came. I came around or down a hill. And i saw house sort of out on. Its own with a couple of rocking chairs on the on the porch. And you know they were just rocking but nobody was am. I sort of started thinking about this lullaby. It's called the appalachian lullaby and just it just started going through my head and i was remembering pieces of it and i just couldn't help but think about those children and who would rock them to sleep and who would hold them tight and who you know who would sing them. Lullabies to sleep and i thought that's what. This is a pout. This was more than just a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mass killing. It's about who takes care of those babies in what in the world happened here and those children's lives will never be the same. These are families so many lives affected in the ripple effects of that which will go on for decades and generations. they now are and will forever be bound this horrible tragedy but both their strengthen the resilience in their resolve and their pain. I mean it's incredible to me. I don't i don't i'm struggling with words because i don't know the right words. Truthfully it's It's heartbreaking and on an awe inspiring. Somehow they're survivors. So that's what i wrote about. Nobody can imagine what this family has been through. Only the other families the manley's the gillies. Those families are suffering as much as we are. They only know what we are all going through. Every day we lift with this and never goes away. I can tell you that. Even though it's extremely hard that. I know our family will never stop. We will never give up. We will never give up trying to find and bring people. Whoever did this to justice we will not give up. Can you describe your first impression to the wagner's my first interview with jake wagner and his mom. Angela was made thirty first twenty sixteen. You know so. What is that six weeks after the homicides. I had talked with other people who said oh. They probably aren't going to talk to you. They're pretty to themselves. But i knew that. Jake and hannah had been on a relationship and hedged had shared a child. So we'll you know we'll go try. I showed up and he and his mom agreed to the interview. He and angela outside their home which was searched two years later we sat outside on a patio area in talked for two and a half hours. Maybe there were children's toys everywhere like those little little cars that drive that are motorized. Little pikes you know the slides and all of that seem like wow. Here's a family. Who really digs their kids and grandkids angeles case and there was trying to establish who were the wagner's who are the wagner's win. Did you start dating hannah. What was that relationship you know. He didn't dodge questions. Looked me in the eye. When i interviewed him really nice. It seemed to me as if when we had talked that very first time that he was truly in love with whatever that means but he thought that they were going to be that it would all that there would be a reconciliation and they would all come together. He had this idea and has had about what that would look like. And i told him this. Like wow for a young man. Us seem to have everything lined up you know. I mean he was saying well we were going to do this. He and hannah we were going to do this. We're going to do this. My plan was assisted. I was like wow. That's a lot of. you are really linear. I think there's what i what i said. Everything's has to line up. Then i was. I was sort of taken by that. I didn't quite know what to think of it. But again i try to keep my mind is as possible. When interviewing people if in fact what jake wagner said true and he committed five eight murders and then went to sleep that night took a shower and then had the nerve to sit down with you straight faced said. I'm good like a regular person that's soul unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. Life said for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It gets harder the longer you do it. Because the world you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things are very just. There's not sometimes these clear things they're not. I have a lot of questions as someone who's talked to jake before. I have tons of questions as you can only imagine but yeah i mean it seemed to me as if as i just painted you know. There were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all the time he talked about. You know for instance. He could name movies. They all watch together the books he would read her before. They went to bed. What he told her about where her mom was. You know that. Mom's with jesus now He said you know. I don't know how to explain to her. That mom is coming back. Did you ask where his daughter was that night. I mean it was my understanding that this was his week to have the child and he had gotten the child day earlier than he would normally have done that fast forward. Five years if jake wagner is to be believed by what he said in court what we still don't know is where all four of the wagner's or the night and early morning of the twenty first and twenty second so there's an assumption. I think that all four of the wagner's participated physically in the crimes. I don't know if that's true. I i simply don't know that What jake said. And as you all know what jake said in court is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for five of the eight victims. So i don't know where his brother was his dad or his mom you. What was angela wagner. Like jake talked a lot more than angela. Angela would add on things as jake talked but any in person interview. I did with jake. Angelo is there and didn't leave. I mean she was a mom. I mean that's how. I saw a mom hear her again as the six weeks after these homicides when i you know and again i'm not trying to be sympathetic to the wagner's right now. I'm not but but again nyland back. Five years i show up on your doorstep and if i'm the mom and my son has just lost the mother of his child i guess. I thought she was just being a protective mom. I'm here for my kid kind of thing again. Let's all looks different today than it did. Five years ago at the time. Did you feel like they might have been guilty or did you believe what they were saying. Or do you not put yourself in that position. Even have an opinion. I had somebody asked me even a couple of years. What's it like to look into the eyes of pure evil. I said i don't know. Sometimes i think that people think it would. You would just automatically. I don't know that. Some i have some kind of radar that go off. That we're we're we're you know but They suspects so i wasn't approaching them without in the back of my mind. Like oh now you're suspects and miss. It was more information gathering. They didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me because sometimes in interviews people will say oh. Don't use that. Don't use that and that makes me really nervous. I mean i don't recall any of that you know any like we can't use that. Or what are you doing or any of that. But i don't you know again you. You don't know what you don't know and to be completely honest. I did ask them angela. Jake once via email just straight out. Did you kill them. And they never responded. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Shell brothers is now building. New homes in ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware twelve models available to virtually tour. You can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything shell brothers has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment. Only after all that planning it's happening your diy closet. Renovation is finally becoming a reality question is where do you put your things while you work. Cube smart has you covered with month to month leases and self storage solutions that make it easier to get organized online or in person getting self storage. It's convenient and fast and because diy renovations can easily go over budget. It's great to keep smart is offering up to twenty five percent off your monthly rent sieg by two before and hello to after with qb smart self storage visit. Cube spar dot com for more details in twenty seventeen. The investigation ramped up more than two dozen. Investigators are focused on solving one of ohio's largest mass murders in his street. As of today we received eight hundred eighty three tips. We've conducted four hundred and sixty five interviews thirty. Eight search warrants have been issued and sixty. Cyber extractions have been done. They made significant progress in the investigation. Believe more than one person committed the crimes today. the killers are still on the loose. When did you hear that. The wagner were suspects. All of a sudden i got a tip from somebody they said. Hey you heard about the search at the wagner's and it became really clear to me that they hit me must have had something because you'd have to have probable cause so whatever it was that got them probable cause to do the search. I thought well they've found something because it isn't just going to be a fishing expedition rate. So i got my car and i drove there. And there were helicopters up and there were law enforcement lake on four wheelers. I was sitting there at the search and someone said. Will you know the house is sold. I said no. I don't know that. And then i sat on my car and looked up the property records and saw that that was on the market. And then you start connecting the dots in your own head right. And i was like whoa wait a minute. Wait a minute. And then i found out they were in alaska though. Agnes were in alaska. And then i went to the editor and said i need to go to. Alaska need to talk to them developments tonight in a bizarre and tragic murder case with ties between ohio and alaska. Investigators want any information. The public has about the wagner family permission. It really isn't it interesting components early information or not messing around. We're laughing people. If they're the folding from so it's in their interest to come forward they went somewhere where you had to really wanna find them to find them right. They seem like they were trying to get lost. In a way they lived in a rural part. That's keanae peninsula and alaska is expansive. But i mean everything is so far from everything else i talked with people in you know A little mike. A little cafe people knew that they were there. But it wasn't any big deal. They were like oh you mean the people who are wanted in ohio for killing all those people attorney general dewine said they. Were you know the while. not calling them. Suspects said they were laser. Focus of the investigation. And i'm like well actually. They're not really wanted. You know. I mean that was the thing that was really interesting by the time. The news got their. Most people thought they were wanted. But that didn't seem to bother people. I remember quoting a guy saying will. This is where people come to get lost. You know it's no surprise. I remember being struck when we drove there. That will of course they live here. It looks just like pike county. You know it's wooded. It's beautiful when i knocked on the door. She came to the door. And i said angela. I'm here let's talk and she was sort of startled. I think to see me. And then jake came to the door and the little girl came and jake wagner says. Oh my gosh chris. It's great to see you. It's great to see somebody. I mean there was no trepidation. What billy did yell. I never saw him but he yelled from the living room. Hey angela what are you doing know. Get back in here. And she's like oh don't mind him. You know his barks orson as by. I mean they were like well. I don't know about this. We've got a lawyer back in ohio. I don't think we should say anything until we talked to him. I was like wow. I'd really like to do a sit down interview. It really liked to record it. Then it became a back and forth about will. Who's your lawyer. How do i talked to him. Where do i get him what we do. I need to talk to him. And then i had a long conversation with him on the phone but he was in ohio. So i go all the way to alaska to talk to somebody in ohio and he was the one who made it sound like dewine harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done nothing but be cooperative. They cooperated one hundred ten percent. They've given over their laptops or phones They provided dna They've agreed to any number of interviews with the bci. Which has the high bureau of criminal investigation they've told authorities that they were going to alaska. Estate is making them look like suspects when they haven't called on suspects then he he said that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to to give the interview like the basically agreed to it and then said knelt never mind. We've changed our mind which is really unfortunate. It was the last time chris graves with ever speak with the wagner family however she recently returned to pike county for the first time in years after hearing some shocking news exactly five years after the road and murders in pike county one of the four defendants jake wagner is pleading guilty to all counts in exchange. He avoids the death penalty and will serve multiple life sentences with no chance of parole. His father mother and brother are similarly charged and they've pleaded not guilty. Prosecutors say that jake will testify against them hearing the prosecutor sort of described that he you know he was in a change changes plea an outlining the terms of the plea arrangement and then when she shared some details of the crime. It was Just like oh my gosh. This is really happening right now. I mean i'm a journalist. So i just sort of think about. What are the facts. What's happening what are they saying. I don't even know if. I really believe he personally killed five people thought. Is he trying to get his mom off. Is he trying to paint the picture but his mom wasn't there or or his dad. Somebody wasn't there so he's gonna like shop the majority of them all four were in. But what does that mean does that mean to were involved in the planning. Other people did something you know. Somebody went in and pulled all the trail cameras but weren't involved in the actual shooting. I don't again. We don't really and i've know i'm saying all the time but we really don't know a ton of these details a lot of it at even even with his guilty plea is speculation. So i don't know. I'm like well trying us spare as he trained to lie. Ambled is there and these lied before. So i would tell the complete truth now. Let's stop here for quick break. 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I want to know the answers. I want to know the details. I wanna know like how you come up with this. How do you do you. Are you all sitting around the kitchen table. Like plotting this and at some point. Why is it that out of four people doesn't say No no it's one thing to talk about it but now we're doing it and we're building silencers and were plotting things as i mean as it's been described in some mental way. You're imagining you're doing something. Good for the benefit of your kin your grandchild but why would you put your own kids in the heart of murder and again the idea that a four people four people who were supposedly religious people not one of you said thou shalt not kill. Not one of you really. That one of you had a moment where you said this is wrong. This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly don't. I cannot under second that like without a surprise to you that it was that it was them. No the thing that startled me or continues to i. Guess what. I have a hard time wrapping. My brain around is that you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over the custody of your of the youngest member of that mind ca joined family but i kept thinking. It's got to be about more than that. My gosh i mean who does this or custody in destroying a family decimates a family and in essence than destroying that child's life to protect that it doesn't. It doesn't reconcile with me. I remember interviewing tony roden. He's the brother of the victims and uncle and all of that. I remember just saying chris. I can't i mean. Please don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true because that little girl does not deserve this for her sake. I just i hope this isn't true. He meant it. I mean it came from very deep and meaningful place. But i guess for all always looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What has been your experience being back in. Pike county now. Five years later crested. I've asked people here is do people still think about this case. Do people still talk about this. And the response. That i've got is yes and i guess. I talked to a couple of people the other day in a public setting and they chucked in terms of how tragic it is and how it's inconceivable but yeah i think it's a battle assey and not just on this case but in all cases to think the bears like a closure thing. I don't think that exists. I drove past crime scenes and they. You know interestingly a couple buildings that remain there a little bit more weathered. I noticed but it feels like chime sort of standing still there waiting for an end to this so i don't think this brings anybody closure. I think that's some hollywood ninety Version of well. Now you get to move on with your life. And i think that's frankly b s i think the amount of loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be felt for generations but truthfully has become the most important and meaningful story of my career. At the end of the day. I was doing my work And i try to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding as well as trying to find facts and being hard. When i need to but it but then i get to leave. You know i get to leave And certainly they stay with me and they will always stay with me. But i don't you know i don't wake up every morning without a mother without a son without my grandchildren. Without you know. I don't wake up. Having to figure out how to tell those children what happened to their mother and fathers and cousins and uncles. And that or i mean my goodness the conversations that are going to have to be had with chacon. Hannah's daughter i mean. I i don't have to do that and that that's what i want people to think about. When they think about this crime. I think sometimes we become fascinated with the inner workings of. How would one family do this to the other family. These are people's lives. And i cannot say that enough And and that's what should not be forgotten in. All of this is that they're all of the horrific ness of the crime needs. There are so many people left behind in this wake. Family was decimated so i guess that's what i hope people take away from this as opposed to its delicious story on june. Twenty twenty-first twenty twenty one accused brother george wagner will head back to court for hearing. When could change the landscape of the case moving forward but as we wait we turn our attention to another story that has had a lasting effect on a different community just miles away from pike. County it centers around notorious lawyer named michael moran. He was arrested in twenty twenty eight thousand charges related to running a prostitution ring. He's pleaded not guilty to all of them and is currently awaiting trial. He's accused of trafficking women all over the country from new york new jersey to florida. A lot of these women are part of marginalized society right. Nobody was listening to their stories before or seeing them as even human we were seeing them as criminals people who would rather them people who were going to break into their house but nobody was really hearing from them. I wanted to continue to investigate these stories. But i think now at that time how big this was more on that next time for more information on the case and relevant photos follow us an instagram at kt four studios. The peyton massacre returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. We'd like to thank the on hammond. Flaying faculty research fellowship grant which supports faculty research at the university of nebraska lincoln where chris graves teaches journalism. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows shell brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floorplans. From the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring show. Brothers has to offer visit us today. At shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment only management concepts delivers the training federal employees need for every stage of their career. Over two hundred. Seventy five courses taught online and in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership and acquisition courses available for twenty twenty one management concepts dot com.

jake wagner chris graves wagner pike county jake gillies angela manley ohio katie studios cording armstrong stephanie decker jeff shane leonard manley dana manley Roden chris Leonard manley Chris graves Pastor fulton
Episode 10- Hopper Road

The Piketon Massacre

32:46 min | 2 months ago

Episode 10- Hopper Road

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Tell you can take a virtual tour online and get directions to the store at home. Sense dot com welcome to the pike and massacre returned to county a production of iheartradio and katie studios. You've got all these scenarios in your head. I think this may have happened her navy. They did this. Every family of a murder victim does that you lay in bed and you think what happened. Why did they do this to did this. There's someone out there roaming around that killed two people that you could be standing beside in the grocery store and scary is the pike massacre returned to pay county season two episode ten hopper road. I'm courtney armstrong a television producer at katy studios stephanie. Lie decker and jeff shane over the course of producing this series. We've spoken to several members of the road and family because of a gag order and impending trials for the wagner family. They have been unable to go on record but earlier this year. One member of the family told us that her friend a pie. Tin resident named angie montgomery wanted to share a story about her own family and a loss they had suffered some years back. Coincidentally that same week a listener wrote in asking about that exact case so for this bonus episode as gear up to the season finale. Next week we decided to look into it. Angie perhaps more than most people can empathize with with. The roads are going through when we spoke to angie. She had just heard about jake. Wagner's plea deal in the road murder case. This news hit angie especially hard. She told us that she immediately reached out to her. Rodent family friend. I remember texting her just telling her. I was sorry that had to hurt so bad knowing that you sat down to eat christmas dinner with these people. You went to church with these people. So i can't imagine finding that out. Angie reflected back on the day. The bodies of eight members of the rodent family were found. I think we lost our innocence. That day we lost our wholesomeness our trust. We lost everything it was like you weren't a days this is happening. Your like where am i living. What's going on here. it's crazy angie's bewilderment is no doubt informed by her own tragic loss ten years before the road and family was gunned down. Her cousin curtis francis and his fiancee. Jennifer forget were also murdered and pike county. Angie spoke with producer. Chris graves about it. I know this probably hard. But can you describe for me. What happened to curtis jennifer on december. Ninth two thousand. Six curtis at his friend's house visiting he had been drinking that day and having a little bit of fun and jennie had came down and told him that he needed to get home and he laughed about ten thirty that night and went home and his mother talked to him before he went to bed. Belt midnight. I think in jenny had talked to a friend. I think about eleven thirty so they were going to bed and the next day. Nine one one call came in that genie's mother had found curtis jenny they had been shot in their bed was horrible. Curtis jenny were good. People you heartbreaking. It was just a shop. it's unsolved correct. Yes fourteen years unthought. It's a roller coaster. You go down every day you go up and down you know. Today's going to be the day something's going to happen and nothing just before their murders thirty four year old curtis francis and thirty year old jennifer. Forget where recently engaged. Couple living in piped-in ohio cousin. Curtis can you tell me a little bit about him and what he was like. Curtis was a good guy. He had a good heart. What help anybody he was. A hard worker loved family. He was very loyal and he was a a very good person. He was a little bit older than and we would see each other. You know when we were younger but we really hung out or when we got older teenagers in her early twenties. During that time we were pretty close. He was like more like a big brother to me. What about jennifer his fiancee. I like to call her a caretaker. She liked to take care of everybody. She loved in a move. She liked to fish. She was a good soul shannon goodhart. And what were they like together. They were a cute couple. They were neighbors. Always joke around. Curtis like joke a lot and laughing and they were just a normal couple. I guess hard working couple their murders just before christmas in two thousand six. Where a shock to everyone. Who knew the couple. Curtis jennifer were shot while they lie asleep in their home. On harper road in piped-in it was later determined that the bullets that killed them were fired from a lever action. Rifle i assume you guys try to work with the police on this right. How did that work at first. The family as being told jeannie and curtis's family. You know we don't know who did this. We don't know what's gonna win. You know law enforcement you. Trust them if they tell you. Hey we're working on this we're gonna get him. You know you gotta be patient which Everybody understands that you can't solve a murder in a day. Sometimes it takes a long time but after fourteen years of being told going from working on it to not contacting at all too well. We've we've went as far as we can go with this case. There's not really anything else we can do unless someone confesses or you know something. Drastic happens that hurts. I think there was one article on it when it happened a few days after it happened in the local paper and and a few other media outlets picked it up and did a couple of articles but after that there was nothing. You feel. like you're never gonna get justice and then you worry about. Hey you know. There's someone on the loose that could do this to other families. And then that turns into kind of aggravation. Why isn't anything being done. Why isn't this case important. Why the mafia important but authorities had no answers eventually the case that became known as the hopper road double when cold then twenty twelve there was suddenly some movement as part of his ohio unsolved homicides initiative then-attorney attorney general mike dewine revived the case urging anyone. With information to come forward he caught wind and he went on channel ten news station on columbus and Beach urge road. Murders talked about it. They had a deputy from the sheriff's department. Talk about acting tips. You know anybody. If they have any information we believe there are person or people out there who have information who would enable us to solve the case me had gotten a new sheriff and he wanted to reopen the case. And try to get some help with it. How did that make you feel feel like someone was actually paying attention. You guys. yeah we were excited. Do you know this is it. Somebody's gonna do something. We've got the attorney general on this and something's going to happen. Dave followed a few leads and a few tips but nothing came about in two thousand fourteen. The investigation was handed back over to the pike. County sheriff's office and it just went cold again. Two years later in two thousand sixteen jody bar than an investigative reporter at fox nineteen in cincinnati received an email from a woman named paula horn. Saying something to the effect of my son who was wrongfully convicted of murder. It and she says. I've got information and another cold case. So of course that got my attention. I go and meet with this woman and what ended up happening. Was paula horns son. Eric was convicted of a separate murder in pike county. A few years before curtain ginny were murdered. He was convicted of murdering paul. Show shouting kilby. He was convicted of that. But i'll a horn was on a mission to have her son. Eric horn set free from prison. Paula horn was convince. Her son did not do the murder so she pulls this huge box out of a closet and it stacked full of papers and files. Paul horn head collected massive amount of documentation tied to her sons murder conviction. But it was documents within this archive pertaining to a different case. That caught. jody's. I the murderers of curtis francis and jennifer get on hopper road as it turns out. Erakor new curtis francis and was with him hours before he was murdered in this box of documents. That paul a horn had or email communications between the prosecution. It eric horns zone attorney. In their plotting hell eric corned would plead guilty in one case in the state would use him as a witness in the double murder on harper road. This was essentially. Eric hordes saying i will trade information about this double murder for a plea deal in this paul show murder so eric. Corn had written out a statement. It's called a proper where he's getting. Investigators information in one case to essentially help him in another. Erica horn gave this to investigators somewhere around september of two thousand and eight so over the next month. Or so eric. From prison writes his mother a letter and he tells her about what happened the night that kurt francis and jennifer forget when murdered according to his letter. Eric corn told authorities that he was at a house on winn road. Piked in ninth two thousand and six that night. A group including curtis francis had gathered at the home for a party horn claimed that he left the wind road home at around ten thirty pm and never saw curtis francis again but horn said that just weeks later he ran into a man who was at the party. The man told horn that he was forced to go to curtis and jennifer's house that night his housemate who shot the couple over money dispute. Eric corn never admits to having direct involvement with the actual murders and sales. But eric horn wrote in that letter that there was a lever action rifle that hung on the wall of the house home on winn road in that after these murders happened. That gun was no longer on the wall. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it using in-depth genetic analysis in realtime bloodwork forward top top-rated doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plans to help guide you to achieving long-term health with forward you get unlimited in person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com. Remember the saying if you love something. Set it free. If it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with well when it comes to identity the folks at lifelock totally disagree all those nights working overtime saving up all that money paying off all that debt and now some identity thief wants to try and set it free. They say that's crazy. Talk and we agree. That's why lifelock by norton helps monitor your info and alert you to potential identity threats. And if you do become a victim a dedicated. Us based specialists will be there to help fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses but when identity thieves. Try to take what she wears. You don't have to take it lying down. Save up to twenty five percent off your first year by going to lifelock dot com slash piped-in. That's lifelock dot com slash payton for twenty five percent off The files collected by paula horn contained not only air corn statements but accounts from other witnesses about the native curtis francis and jennifer gets murders. What i was reading on them was unbelievable. There were witness statements out of an investigative files in the pike. County sheriff's office contained in this box of records to this box records contained every document. That somebody like me could only dream of having when you start investigating a murder. That's ten years old at that point in time and what she had in her possession documents that ultimately provided a whole lot of answers for jimmy's family. We win every shred of paper in this case file. I made sure. I understood who every person was who these players are how they were connected. Next job was then to go talk to the victims families. So i went to judy conley. Who is kurt francis. His mother jody bar revealed some of the other statements taken by police in their investigation into kurt. Jennifer's murderer to the family. These accounts however seemed to contradict what era corn initially told authorities. Here again. angie. Montgomery one statement is from a gentleman whose house courtesy was at the night that he got murdered. He stated that his brother and his friend eric corn had left after curtis had left about ten thirty or eleven and took a rifle off the wall and went in killed curtis jenny and that they came back with bloody clothes in the shower took a shower. Got the blood. Often them took their clothes out in the yard and put them in a black trash bag in burnt them all at the command of his mother. Because apparently curtis owed the mother's fiance. Three hundred dollars is what i was told. And then there's another statement and they told the same story that they took a rifle off. The wall came back. Bloody took a shower bird. Close eric. corn denies any and all involvement in curtis and jennifer's murders. Jody bar knew that the information he had could help track down curtis and jennifer killers. But there was one problem. Jody couldn't get any more information from investigators. We can't pull the records in this case. They're all under seal. This is still considered although it's cold it's attending open investigation regardless of whether investigators are actively working or not. These are not records. You can get a hold of under the open records. Act so what you have at that point. The only thing you have are the witnesses and family members who may have been in contact or who may have remembered something from from back when this began. But i knew there was something here. I just had to get somebody from the family to work with us to help us. Then all the sudden this guy was huge. Winter jacket walks in from the backyard and greasy. He's been working on a car. And it's paul francis. His brother is kerr trances and judy. Introduces us and i tell him why why i am there. In his whole demeanor changed he looked angry. And i'm thinking okay. This is this going to be one of those where i get hauled out of the by collar belt loops and paul tells me is. Let's get your car. i've got something to show you. So get the car and we drive from his home over to win road and he walks me out to the edge of the property and he says this is a well and then he starts telling me the story about the story that this well told that he just happened to find. Paul jody that in july of twenty sixteen. He was doing the plumbing job at the same house on winn road that curtis was last seen at the night of his murder in two thousand six. By this point the previous owners had moved out doing plumbing work. So he sees a waterline running outside with an electrical wire running out alongside the pipe. So he's trying to pull this water lineup and it gets to a point where he he can't pull it up out of the ground any longer so then starts pulling this electrical wire and it snakes across the yard and it goes down a hill under a pile of junk in the yard as you described it and he digs down in. He finds this well. Shaft paul told me in the back of his mind and suspicion was that this could hold some sort of answer to his brothers. It sister-in-law's murder. You told me. He had a gut feeling about it. So paul francis called the pike county sheriff's office into investigate by two thousand sixteen. The department was headed up by charlie reader who as we know would later be jailed on charges related to corruption in office at the moment when an twenty six. What were you guys feelings about. Charlie reader were you hopeful. Yeah you're hopeful with every new. Sheriff he also had his hands full because the road and massacre had just happened. We knew that resources were probably stretched. But we also thought the bci the fbi. They're already down here in our county that gave us a little bit of hope of maybe The sheriff will say something and and pick up on this too. We were very hopeful that he would do something and something would happen. So the sheriff. Charlie reader paid a local plumbing company to run on plumbers camera down the well they were able to capture images of a handgun ant then this lever action rifle been that is very similar to the gun that air corn described in his two thousand eight letter that he sent his mom from prison. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. Okay so i gotta tell you about shopping at home sense. Oh yeah. I need to check that out. Is it good. It's better than good. trust me. it's a whole new way to shop. Maybe even life changing seriously. Oh yeah see. Home sense is part of the homegoods family. So you know going in that everything will be less than you expect to pay. I love that. And here's the best part. Home sense is never the same store twice. They put out new items all week long. So there's always something new every visits kind of like a treasure hunt the other day. I've found zebra print accenture. I could use a new chair. Home has stuff to plus every room in your house. There's so much to choose from furniture rugs lights hall decor so many throw pillows while art and bulls. Okay you got me. I've got a check out home sense. You can take a virtual tour online and to get directions to the store at home. Sense dot com o. And when you go yeah take me with you deal like most people. I barely have time to get everything done. Let alone make a healthy indecent dinner for my family every night. Luckily i found hellofresh. This is not your average meal delivery. 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America's number one meal kit a authorities also found burnt clothing a detail relaid in eric corn statement. This could have been the break in the case the only physical evidence that we know of was down a well shaft and the sheriff's office just feet away for being able to get their hands on it baggage process if potentially prosecute somebody in the hopper road double-murder so then they were faced with the task of. How do we get these guns out of this. Well it's it's an eight inch pipe. You know that goes down into a well so they tried with a magnet. I was told and when that failed. They called in a fire truck. The idea was used the fire. Hose to fill the well with water which wouldn't turn live the guns back up to the surface authorities to retrieve but things did not go as expected. Nate place the fire hose and the pipe and turned the water on it. Blew the bottom of the well out and knocked like an eighty foot pole in allow. Took the guns with yourself. This ultimately ends up getting a welder out there. The welder wells a plate over top of this well. And that's where it's at july two thousand sixteen and here. We are years later. The likelihood that it's ever recovered. It's not looking very good right now. How did that feel horrible. Muscial and don't horrible anger. You know this is that was probably the biggest break will ever getting in this case ever. Despite potential evidence being lost jodi buyer pressed on with his investigation in two thousand seventeen. He went forward with a series of reports on the hopper double murder case the pike county sheriff at the time charlie reader when i was looking into this case me that he developed a cold case unit within a sheriff's office and he had some season law enforcement officials investigators criminal profiler 's on this team and they were looking into the hopper road cold case. So i got an interview with those four men. And i wanted to know more about the well. I wanted to him about this evidence in the bottom of this. Well i wanted to know a named all the names that were contained in these witness statements had all four members of this cold case unit sitting in front of me interview inside the sheriff's office in all i got from this cold case. Unit was no comment. Every question was no comment. Have you been able to develop any type of motive Profile of the suspects no comment. So you know we were. At the end of the road jody's reporting on curtis and jennifer's murder also received some pushback from the pike county community do to his interactions with sheriff charlie reader at the time the people in pike county that scene jody's airing of the hopper room murders had a different perspective on mr bar because of the investigation. He did at the road warehouse. With mr reader. Mr reader had got on facebook in had a huge rant aimed at mr bar and i like to say they drink mr readers. Kool-aid people were saying. This guy's just down here to make the pike county sheriff's office in charlie reader look horrible and so i had a lot of people message unique saying i can't believe that your family would let that guy do a report on this case. And he's just a troublemaker. He isn't even from around here. And i would always buy back and say at least he cares. You know he's the only one that cares. He jody. I mean as with all my heart and i hope i can get it out without crying. It's he really does care about my family. He is in constant contact with me. He has helped me. He has listened to me cry. He's just it's aggravated as we are. He's a very caring person in he and he was he the gods. Jody bars reporting helped raise awareness about curtis and jennifer's murders. The police were seemingly unable to make any progress still today. No one's been arrested. Kirk james family have no more answers today than they had. When we rolled out of pike county for the last time and aired the the final broadcast into this case from your extensive investigation seems as though investigators know what might have happened to curtis and jennifer and who may have done it. Why do you think there has been an arrest. That's my question. I don't know why there hasn't been an arrest. I don't know the investigators just didn't have enough. I don't know what else was needed to finish investigation. You've got people in these statements telling stories that you fill out what happened when you know the people who were adelphi in these statements as having gone to this murder seeing committed these crimes. It came back home. So i don't know why. Or what or where. Investigators art at this point in time. This is where fifteen years down the road. No arrests so as far as families concern and i talked to them regularly still today i mean they they feel like this is a miscarriage of not even justice. They didn't get that far. It's just an incomplete investigation. You just hope one day you'll be able to finish the story because at this point two people are dead in. It appears that whoever did this is you know gotten away with murder but that won't be the case fangio. Montgomerie has anything to do with it. You're still on this mission to get answers to get justice and also to make sure that it doesn't happen to another family right. I got my kids up. Were they were a little bit. I had a little bit of time on my hands. So i started going full force with getting hopper case out into the public. Speaking i went to the prosecutor spoke with him a few times. I went to the sheriff's we had an interim sheriff. When mr reader got suspended we're told just helps coming and it never does and i noticed that it's always when i get really rowdy. Squeaky wheel gets the most grief. When i start squeaking. I'll get a phone call. Hey just hang on. I'm going to figure out and nothing happens in. We're tired of it. That's like the most emotional about is just feeling like nobody cares. And i can't imagine what curtains anyth- mom their mothers feel like. That's another thing that puts the fire under by ass. It's never it's not going to bring them back. You'll always have a hole in your heart from that. But i would love to see someone get arrested for curtis in jennifer's murder and get prosecuted and that we get justice more information and the case relevant photos. Follow us on instagram at. Kt underscores studios next week will be bringing you the season finale where full panel of contributors will answer listener questions. So please write us with anything you wanna know this week. Is your last chance to get the questions. In the piped-in massacre returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows do you wonder where your food comes from more. And more people to america's corn farmers work hard every day to grow a crop that you can be proud to serve your family. And they're doing it with an eye toward sustainability caring for water air soil and resources that fuel healthy families and more sustainable products. Take a look to find out how farmers in rural america work to make life better for all of us from cities to their rural communities learn more at nc g. dot com in cg a a commitment to the future in a rapidly changing world. People wonder more and more about where their food comes from. And how it was grown farmers who grow america's corn understand how important this is and want to share the stories from our farms of how we are working to grow an incredible crop that can be an answer to sustainability questions and has grown by men and women who value the air water soil and our natural resources just like you to find out more about how corn farmers are working to feed and fuel a vibrant economy and healthy planet visit. Nca dot com a commitment to the future.

curtis francis curtis jennifer angie curtis jenny pike county Eric corn paula horn County sheriff's office jody bar Angie kurt francis Curtis katie studios courtney armstrong katy studios stephanie jeff shane angie montgomery eric
Episode 8- Truth Be Revealed

The Piketon Massacre

40:10 min | 1 year ago

Episode 8- Truth Be Revealed

"Your shows right. Well then listen up. If you've expanded the internet entertainment starts at free with flex so you can get really into your shows. Find your favorites faster with just your voice. The office from peacock to hbo. Max end disney plus the whole squads here the falcon and the winter soldier. And he's losing. It's a way better way to watch. Restrictions apply subscriptions required to access streaming services including disney plus requires postpaid xfinity internet excluding essentials one device included additional devices. Five dollars a month. I'm dr larry centers. I'm a psychology professor at yale. And i started to notice that a lot of my students were all that happy so i created a new class longtime everybody to psychology and the good life. But it's not just my student who need to understand the science of well being and that's why we launched the happens lab so you can learn about it too. Are you ready to feel happier. Head to the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or if you like to listen brought to you by discover- discover something writer. Welcome to the pike and massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios episode. eight truth be revealed. Over the course of seven episodes. We have examined the details of the murders of eight members of the rodent family. The investigation that was launched in their wake and what led up to the arrests of six members of the wagner family. Now we're gonna look at where the case stands and what lies ahead next week's episode burning questions. I'm courtney armstrong a television producer at katy studios with stephanie decker. And jeff shane. When we left off last week it was june twenty six twenty nineteen and frederico wagner was in the defendant's chair in pike county courtroom. She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury in connection with the road murderers. Here's frederica zone. Easter aa defending her aunt's claims earth. The prosecutors falsely believe bulletproof vests were purchased before the road and homicides both sides know that it is not true they were in fact purchased on may the seventh two thousand sixteen fifteen days after the day of the road homicides. So that's proven we know there's like receipts right. Yep got receipts got a. We have everything second. She guest and thought that she bought them from amazon. Now why they made a big deal about what what were they came off the internet. She ordered them off the internet. Whenever you go on the internet a bunch of places come up usually amazon's the first thing that comes up. She did that a lot but they made a big deal about it so they went back through her books and they found out that she did buy them but it wasn't from amazon ebay but criminal. Defense attorney mike. Allen told jeff that frederica statements are a much bigger deal than ray thinks. Well obviously when you have a situation like this and someone involved with the people that are charged makes purchase of to bulletproof vests whether it's from ebay or amazon at something that the prosecution would be interested in and she apparently was before the grand jury when she misrepresented if you will where she bought these things from it it. it's it's relevant and and also too. I think it would be fair to say that the prosecution probably wanted this Put onto the charges put on her to have a little bit elaborate with her to. Do you think that her explanation of to sing o. I don't remember confused as an attorney. Do that makes someone look more guilty yet. Does especially something. Like this. And i know she's elderly but boy she certainly seems like she's pretty sharp but a rather big event in most people's lives if they purchased bulletproof pass Online or anyway you purchase some. You would think that you would remember where you purchase them from so yeah it doesn't make her look good at all. Ultimately frederico wagner's lawyer filed receipts that proved. She made the purchases fifteen days after the slayings. This led the defense team to turn over. Potential evidence is required to the prosecution too late to meet the criteria for a speedy trial. They dismiss the charges against frederico wagner while reserving the right to charge her again. My gallon broke down. What all this means with respect to the ohio speedy statute. It's generally you have to bring a felony case within two hundred seventy days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running. Out of time so strategically i think they decided to dismiss it with the option and the right to refile it again. If that becomes necessary soc- he gets hard with the same crimes again. Oh yeah they were dismissed without prejudice. Which means that the state can refile them at a later date but it seems that frederico wagner doesn't foresee that happening here she is speaking to the press after hearing trust in the lord with all your heart lean not to your own understanding in all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your path and as my turn will tell you. It was just missed because i was innocent. They had no evidence against me. I never lied about anything. Frederico wagner's freedom validates with diriye has believed all along. She has never in her life. Anything wrong she's not capable of and you know if she thought that her kids would have done something bad. She would have recommend that they turn themselves in for anything. I mean she. She loves she. She lives by what she says she lives by which is what she gives all the glory to god. Angela billy jake. George wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem and billy wagner's mother frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes. Innocence until guilt is proven. But one thing. That doesn't help. Frederico agnes case is a revelation by the prosecution at a pretrial hearing for her son. Billy and twenty twenty the state submitted evidence showing not the night before frederica testified before the grand jury and twenty eighteen. She had searched the internet for information about penalties for perjury. Here's our anonymous wagner family relative. She shared her thoughts with jeff. Do you think that his mom. Billy's mom frederica. Do you think she had an involvement. I believe i believe she could've yeah. I'm elated that she definitely I don't believe she tried to stop it. you know. i don't believe that she. I i believe if anything probably influence to encourage it and her son to do what he did. Others like rodent family friend. Stefan thinks that frederico wasn't just involved in the murders but could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing. I don't take for a woman at all. She's a business woman. She's probably shrewd. She's the head the monarch you know so the monarch is usually the one that that has their thumb on everybody. She's wanted to control over. Everything seems to me like investigative journalists. Jodi bar the alleged involvement of frederico wagner upends conventions of who actually could be capable of being involved in murder. I think this case if it ended today as it is alleged. I don't think there's anybody on this planet that can look at those people and say those people look like a family who could slaughter eight cuban beams if you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like i think this case in pike county is showing you you have no idea So here we are four years later. Two of the six defendants are free and four others are in prison facing death. Penalty charges accused of killing eight members throat and family deaf unie followed by jeff as it stands now the trials for billy angela. Jacob wachner are slated to begin in the next few months matter. Really understand this case and where it stands and what's to come. We'll have to examine some of the most important points in the five thousand pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence. There are more than three hundred thirty. Two thousand files of evidence in this case one of the exhibits in the prosecution's arsenal is related to billy wagner in his copy of the nine hundred ninety. Nine movie the boondock saints. The film is about two brothers in boston. Who exact a form of vigilante justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals. It's extremely violent and over the top but the big takeaway for this case. Is that the brothers. In the film you silencers on their guns. A method that members of the wagner family are accused of using to execute the rodents as we covered in the last episode. A homemade silence are was discovered at a farm once owned by jake and george wagner but d'auray thinks the connection is tenuous at best. I read that and i had to laugh. I had to laugh so hard. Okay so you have to remember that. This was a very organized. Brilliantly darn execution. This is something that you wouldn't learn on a dvd. Some buying with military background navy seals. I mean whoever did it who was growing their professional. These people are not professional killers. Mike allen told jeff that the dvd could be a building block and the state's case. You can't watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your take on that. I don't think they could introduce it for the for the proposition that that's how the wagner's learned how to do that. I think if the state Introduced it or attempted to get it introduced which is be kind of peripheral to like. Hey you know somebody in that family watch that movie or ordered that movie or bought that movie and it's a movie about vigilante justice. But i would certainly try at least because apparently in this case the allegation is silence. We're used and they were used in that movie as well so it would be one piece of evidence that they could add onto other evidence It'd be a piece of evidence if admitted that they could talk about in closing argument. So while not determinative in any way shape or form it is evidence that could be helpful to the state. There's a mountain of other evidence. The prosecution plans on using one that stands out as an excel spreadsheet that contains five hundred nineteen entries of messages about child custody. I spoke with my gallon about it. Another piece of evidence that's been talked about. Are these excel spreadsheets. Apparently they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about child custody and facebook screenshots regarding it what does that tell you well. It tells me that could be a part of the motive in this case. And that's pretty strong evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things screenshots and it seems that they were kind of obsessed with his desire to get custody and control would be circumstantial but circumstance. You ll evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence because evidence is circumstantial. Doesn't mean that it's not good evidence strong evidence but you know it's like you're you're dropping You know pebbles into a pond every little pebble makes a ripple and you know you build on those things and at the end of the day at the prosecution. Does it right every little bit. Helt with respect to building a case the discovery documents also include information about a person that some speculate could be an informant. Jody bar told us about trying to track down this worse. The name of the informant has been published. Which is why it's bleeped in his interview. Only thing i know is that was a name given very early on. Who i was told did business with chris rhoden. I was never able to even find it. This person exists. I guess they did i. It really does exist. But when i was given a list of names of people who could potentially either been involved in this new about this this is what personnel tried to track down at find over inside iota county which is just across the line from pike and i was never able to find this person but i told that this person new christine your plea as far as know. They were together a lot and they were in some business pitchers together but again i was never able to find this person or to verify anything that was ever told me about him. Prosecutors for the case claiming another confidential informant told them of a specific meeting at frederico wagner's home. It occurred with the other accused family members and allegedly included talk of quote taking revenge on a special agent then attorney general mike dewine and pike county. Sheriff charles reader. Their evangelists allegedly planned. Family was arrested. Jody bar dissected these claims with jeff. It just seems so careless that the people accused of this would be bringing outsiders into a home. Although we don't know who the confidential informant is but they would risk getting caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like this where they're number one admitting it essentially but secondly you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law enforcer pike county and achieved law enforcement for the state of ohio. But that's an interesting point that it doesn't compute that if they were like ninjas and they could do this elaborate crime why would they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with with other people. When i see confidential informant men. A part of me goes. I wonder if one of the wagner's as rolled over and is helping. This investigation is still something under there. Have been some plea deals already made. Here's charges dismissed. But you've gotta wonder who is this a format because if it's a member of the wagner family and i think that's a twist no one saw common. Let's stop here for quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backcourts. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors. 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Dna evidence both as a prosecutor and as the defense attorney. That's not good news for the defense. If they've got almost three thousand pages of dna evidence evidence that would have been sent to the lab and comes back. They've gotta have something. I mean i would be shocked if they didn't have some credible. Dna evidence against at least one of these defendants probably more of them. That's bad news for the defense There's just no way of getting around it. Because dna evidence if extracted properly and analyze proper properly. It's pretty much lights out if they did it correctly so i think it's problematic for the defense here. Stephanie followed by jeff. In addition the report also lists one thousand one hundred and seventy crime scene photos cyber forensic reports of the wagner's their cell phones and their computers and hundreds of pages citing reference to the recovery of firearms and ballistic testing in fact at the pretrial hearing for george wagner. Just a few weeks ago. We got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have so this hearing was for emotion the defense was making to get george wagner. The eldest son released from prison on bond in response. The prosecution laid out some of the evidence they have against george wagner basically an argument to keep george behind bars one of the lead detectives on the case testified that he and team have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides with guns believed to be owned by the wagner's including a twenty two caliber long rifle a forty caliber handgun and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence that shoeprints from the exact same shoes purchased at walmart by the wagner's to allegedly frame dana rodin's brother. You remember james manley were found in dried blood at two of the crime scenes and get this in fact receipts for those exact same shoes. There are very specific walmart. Athletic shoe were found. During a search of the wagner property in two thousand sixteen there are also over five thousand recorded statements from interviews with george wagner who claimed there really was no issue regarding custody between jake wagner and hannah roden over their daughter sophia and that we know is just not true right so with all of this. The wagner still continue to declare their innocence. Is it really possible that they did. In fact have nothing to do with it over recently. One of the wagons lawyers made statements to the press saying that a loose custody arrangement between jake wagner and hannah further daughter. Sophia was being formalized by another attorney in ohio at the time of the killings but due to the fact that hannah was murdered. The agreement was never formalized. So it's not permissible in court. I spoke with about her second cousin. Jake wagner to see if we could get any more information on the custody arrangement between him and hannah roten. Do you know anything about like. They were trying to get custody of sofia before the murders. I don't know anything about that. Okay yeah. I was just curious because you hear a lot about that. I never heard you know. I talked to my analyze. That was that was never mentioned. So do you think that that is fabricated as well. I if i'm hearing you right. I don't believe that it has anything to do with it. I don't believe there was a custody battle. i think that's another made apply. What makes you say that is. I never heard anything about it. I mean somebody did it but we don't know who and we're for sure it wasn't the wagner family. It's a tragedy and most of the people that i talked to. They're all thinking. It's drug related something that had to do with drug trafficking. We don't know it's who knows it's a ministry. We found it strange for woman who covers her family's case closely not to know anything about the custody issues that other family relatives disclose to us before. Even stranger is something else that was presented at george. Wagner's most recent pretrial hearing again. He's the eldest son. Prosecutors pointed to a screenshot of a message from hannah road into one of her friends in this message. She's discussing the wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents. The ones that we've talked about in previous episodes now get this. Screenshot was found on the wagner family computer seized during the investigation and again allegedly the wagner scott it by hacking into hannah. Rodents facebook account. The message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and i quote. I won't sign papers ever. It won't happen. They'll have to kill me. I end quote. It does seem clear. The wagner's were sort of obsessed with custody and control of sofia and speaking with people close to the family. This actually wasn't the first time custody became an issue christina howard sister tabby was married to george wagner for several years. The two had a son together but eventually split up. According to christina following their divorce the wagner family tried to force tabby into handing over custody of their son. This is christina's recollection of events. She spoke to jeff about it somehow or another. Angela like manipulated her with different papers. Sign and stuff and they had taibbi finding over the rights in custody to george. You know they had money for expensive lawyer. Tabby didn't and so they had custody plum up until they got caught and stuff for the crimes. Do you think that she was obsessed with having custody of all her grandkids. Oh yeah definitely why do you say that tabby like whenever she would try to reach out to george like. Hey come i come visit. Might son and angela get on there and be like all bees. Not your son anymore. Tell tabby like old. You might have gave barton by on his real mother. Because i take care of him. And all these nasty things and christina told us that in the aftermath of tabby and georgia's custody battle hannah road contact a tabby for advice on how to deal with their own custody issues with wagner's i knew that hanno was struggling to keep custody of sofia. Because she wants to her. My sister were pretty close. And you know tabby straight up told her like a sa present you with papers. Do not sign them gives them to a lawyer. I let the lawyer read it over and proceed from there because they will try to still custody afia even if they're trying to act like they're understanding and all of the swords not listen to them because they will screw over christina's account of george wagner and tabbies dispute in addition to everything we've heard about jake wagner hannah roden clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when it comes to custody but when jeff asked array about george and tabbies custody battle she soundly refuted christina's claims. I want your side of this. People say that like george custody situation where he tried to get custody of his son. Jake a similar situation. People are saying that like angela was just obsessed with the kids wanted all the control of the of the children. I don't i. Don't i don't believe that i don't believe that. I know she loved them. But i don't believe she is obsessed. I think she's a normal grandmother and choose an excellent role model. While we don't know all the details of george wagner and tabbies custody case there is evidence that the wagner's did deceive hannah roden by trying to convince her to sign fake custody documents here. Stephanie followed by jeff. It seems being locked up in prison hasn't even stopped the wagner's for one second from trying to manipulate those closest to them as we discussed in september of two thousand nineteen angela wagner tried to discuss k. strategy even influence testimony from prison prosecutors also claim that angela wagner called. Her mother. Read a new come. She's the one that's accused of forging those custody documents. She called her several times and basically asked her not to testify against the family and also told her how to explain away the custody documents that she's accused of forging as a punishment. A judge suspended angela. Wagner's in jail phone and mail privileges. Mike allen told us that this is just another blow for the defense any criminal defense attorney. That is doing their job. And i'm sure every one of these criminal defense attorneys are doing their job. They tell their client from day. One and do not under any circumstances discuss the case on the phone because you can guarantee that the conversations are being kate. prosecutors can use those conversations If the person is talking about strategy make some kind of admission intimidates witnesses. The recording doesn't lie and that could end up to be pretty strong evidence against her at the end of the day. A wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request. He made after five months in prison. He asked to be transferred. From general population to solitary confinement. Usually solitary confinement is given to a prisoner. Who either is a threat to other prisoners or who may be in danger in the general population. My gallon told us that george had a different reason is stated. Recent was that he wanted to be able to study the bible in peace. That's a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary a lotta times although they may not say it. They're asking for that because they've been threatened and you know they wanna make sure that there is safe as they can be in jail. But when i read that i kind of wondered. Is that the real reason. I mean you know you just have to wonder what the motivation is. So how does all this evidence up. How strong is the state's case against billy angela. Jake and george wagner. I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be a prosecutor as a criminal defense attorney. You never say never As far as you know your chances in front of a jury and said that that the evidence sure seems strong. And we don't know all the evidence we know what's public so the old adage that a prosecutor could entice a ham sandwich is true but smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they can win beyond a reasonable doubt and i think mike dewine who is in the driver's seat in this thing. There's no way he would have indicted this. If he didn't think he could prove it or ultimately someone could prove it at the end of the day. Let's stop here for quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. You want to see miss. Wouldn't have you been hearing about the new government modernization efforts. aarp as data science. Things are changing at this agency and people will need new skills. I'd like you to get some training management concepts catalog. Wow over two hundred seventy five courses. That's right and local classrooms or in stricter online classes. We still have budget in this fiscal year. So sign up online advance your career with courses from management concepts get a catalog at management concepts dot com or call eight three three five seven eight eighty four sixty six your time for real summer fund is here so ditch the boredom and hit up your local mini dealer because the many summer of driving then is happening. Now get a new mini cooper. Hardtop two door starting to twenty nine per month for thirty six month. Low mileage lease with two thousand nine hundred ninety nine due at signing visit many usa dot com slash east for details. That's many usa dot com slash east. And see what. It's like to drive something this fine at the summer of dr event with many. We've been covering this case for over two years and in that time we've examined not only the details of the eight murders themselves but the multiple theories that have surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection. Discoveries of the murder scenes are now advancing. The theory killing could be related to a drug cartel. The rodents had a pretty sizeable crop of marijuana plants on their property. So you know. There were indications that they were involved in drug dealers and drug trade with marijuana. We explored the rumors of small town revenge. There had been reports of scuffles with other people in public his message in his talking about. I'm not break his fucking legs and curb. Stop his ass. We also investigated a series of eerily similar killings. We have had a double homicide. Four children left alive. This is very similar to the road in case and we had heard that there were other people who were shot nolan. I nets security style in their homes. And when you're looking at the road in case and then you see these other cases in a county that small you start asking yourself what the hell is going on. It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless there is some sort of common denominator but in the end it was some of the people who are closest to the rodents that were arrested for orchestrating the brutal cold blooded massacre at the sar of this case or members of the wagner family whom we believe the evidence will show conspired together to kill these eight people as we struggled to make sense of the crimes we've listened to the impassioned arguments of family members who insist that their relatives are innocent. Our family joke is there's no way that betty crocker in the doe. Boys could ever go to an extreme of murder. Somebody did it but it wasn't now we've heard first person accounts from relatives that support the primary motive in this case cake with their little girl. There was a custody battle. And hannah wasn't allowing jake. See her in. It just sent him to the point where jake. He made the comment that he were going to kill her. But there are some who are simply torn in wagner's were arrested. You had your fifty fifty. You had people that said yes. I knew that they did that. And then you've got people that a. There's no way those people. I don't think anybody would believe that a family could've put together such j. d. cold kit on another family that they had created life with. It's still too difficult to accept into hard to believe. Many in the piped-in in area believe there is no doubt that the wagner's plotted this horrific killing spree people wanted to paint the through feud between the roads and wagner's as something like the hatfields and mccoys doesn't make sense me if they are innocent. Because who else would do that. Whether the wagner's are innocent or guilty doesn't change the fact that the lives of eight members of a revered local family. The rodents were taken on april. Twenty second twenty sixteen dana roden thirty-seven-year-old mother grandmother and nurse living in her brand new home. Chris rhoden forty year old loving father and grandfather. Dana and chris's oldest son twenty year. Old frankie roden frankie's fiance twenty year. Old hannah gilly. Who was in bed with their six month old. Baby rooker frankie. Rodents three year. Old son brantley. Both of whom were spared. Hannah may roden nine year old mother to two year old sophia and her five day old newborn kylie dana and chris's youngest child sixteen year old. Chris junior who had just gotten his drivers license. Cristina's older brother forty four year. Old kenneth moton father of three and his cousin thirty eight year old gary roden who is staying with christina. That night horrible to this day in dana and her family will never never gets the celebrate birthdays and have parties and get togethers barbecues and stuff like that. It's it's it's terrible. It's it it just really hurts my heart in all this. It's sometimes easy to forget. Those whose lives were spared that fateful night but who lost everything in the process. The road and children. It's two families really have been destroyed and at the center of tragedy is. Are these kids whose families are torn apart and lost so fi is one that is losing the most at this point in her life because she's lost her mom side of the family. She's lost her father's side of the family and she is in child protective custody where no one knows where she is. She has lost on both sides. She's lost both of our families. Does it supposed to be happy for her. This is her childhood. The tragic legacy of the road murders continues to loom over the town of piped in ohio. You know whatever happened that morning on union hill road. It impacted a lot. More people were killed. I mean you've got their family members and you've got people in that area are to remember this forever. This is never going away. Part of the horrible. I mean just absolutely awful act. You know that they'd destroying other family completely. They have changed family life for the rest of their life Though that they you know like well the are has changed as well you know. We get tortured daily with the thought of how our family could have done something like this and we still have love for them. I do film though. Terrible for the roads. And i've always wanted to be able to address. How sorry i am and just because we still love angela. Jake doesn't mean that we are sorry. For what with trials for billy angela jake george wagner potentially just months away the residents of the peyton area sit anticipation awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter in the town's history and a conclusion to ohio's most notorious murder case. I've been in the system for over fifty and that is extremely rare that you got for people for defendants facing the death penalty. What will happen is anyone's guess if they walk out of that courtroom without any convictions. Can't imagine how the rodents go on in the public to i mean. How do you not known for sure exactly who did this. It's to be brokenhearted. It's gonna be broken hearts. I honestly think that that the wagner's is it's going to mistrial. Its search for the truth and you know that old proverb from shakespeare that the truth will out in the end. I believe that as it applies to this case The mystery will be solved the truth all eventually and inevitably discovered and it looks like that's the way they're heading. I like everybody else. Wanna know. I wanna know how the story reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions were on instagram facebook and twitter. At piped-in massacre we look forward to answering your questions in upcoming episodes. Payton massacre is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane and andrew becker. The pectin massacre is a production of iheartradio and katie studios for more podcast from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows in the land of diamonds services king maker queen with a gorgeous nervous diamond before you go down on. One knee moves diamond importers with a huge selection of high quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is washington's. First choice at mervyn's you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Make a statement. They say you know value. Nine of ten brides choose movies. The tenth is still speech us. Check out of us at movers. Diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamonds. Dot com management concepts delivers the training. Federal employees need for every stage of their career. Over two hundred. Seventy five courses taught online in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership an acquisition courses available for twenty twenty one management concepts dot com.

george wagner frederico wagner wagner frederica jeff pike county jake wagner Jody bar amazon hannah roden billy angela billy wagner Mike allen katie studios dr larry courtney armstrong katy studios stephanie decker jeff shane Defense attorney mike
Episode 5- To Protect & Serve

The Piketon Massacre

34:42 min | 3 months ago

Episode 5- To Protect & Serve

"Your time for some real summer fund is here so ditched the boredom and hit up your local mini dealer because the many summer of dr event is happening. Now get a new mini cooper s countryman. All four starting at three sixty nine per month for thirty six month low mileage lease with two thousand nine hundred ninety nine due at signing visit many usa dot com slash east for details. That's many usa dot com slash. And see what. It's like to drive the most versatile. Many ever at the mini summer of dr event after a long time off summers back and whole foods market has the exceptional ingredients. You need to make the most of it that means air chilled animal welfare certified chicken sustainable while caught sockeye salmon. And have you seen those organic peaches epic so whether it's succulent pork. Ribs or a towering plant based burger in the backyard. Take the guardrails off and summer on at whole foods market. Welcome to the and massacre production of iheartradio and katie studios. We are here today. For the case of ohio versus charles reader case numbers. Twenty nine thousand nine hundred. Cr six eight The quarter now here from mr lean. I stayed here before you today to take accountability for my actions to accept responsibility for my conduct share of ohio. I should is me thing that i've worked for professionally and honorably for twenty. Five years was trip to me with nobody disappointing but my stuff. If i could go back and jaded i would a million times. This is not. Hawaii never ever did. I imagine myself on the victim side. This court group. That i've spent twenty five years of my life in this down in law enforcement. I am a good person. Make bad decisions and choices prayed. Quite mercy on me this is. The massacre returned. Pike county season two episode five to protect and serve. I'm gordon armstrong. A television producer. Kt studios with stephanie. Decker and jeff shane on the morning of april twenty. Second two thousand sixteen the pike county. Sheriff's office responded to calls of multiple homicides in what would soon be considered ohio's notorious mass murderer seven adults and one sixteen year. Old boy were found in four different locations along a country road in pike county. We know all of these victims. All members of the road in family shooting. Sift town of piped-in numb a lot of unanswered questions as to how this unfolded and who is responsible for them as news of the tragedy emerged. The nation. turn to the area's top law enforcement official for answers. Pike county sheriff charlie reader to give a brief update on what we are doing at this time. I have Deputies from my county and other counties that are keeping the scene secured. here's reporter jane's culture. He's the one updating the media. he's the one who's available. He's the one when you wanted to ask how things are going. He was the one that you call so he began. The face of the investigation early on this investigation is very large. One probably the largest in pike county than we've ever had been a part of this very tragic. I want everybody to be patient but understand that we are working around the clock twenty four hours a day but this is going to be a very lengthy process. Reporter engineer levy covered many of readers briefings during the course of the road and murder investigation. You know he was out in front of this standing next to the attorney general at the time doing press conferences with him and he often became very emotional and people. There were a lot of people in pike county who really really liked ten. You came in like thieves in the night and took eight. Life's some being children. We are getting closer. The family and the victims will have justice. One day charlie. Reader by all accounts is somebody who grew up in pike county. He did not come from a well to do family or anything like that. A lot of people out in pay county or poor. he worked for many years for the pike. County prosecutor rob john his investigator and at some point charlie reader was appointed the sheriff by the democratic party in pike county criminal defense attorney mike allen remembered readers two thousand sixteen landslide election. He got seventy five percent is opponent got twenty. Five percent is pretty unheard of in any kind of election so at one point he was pretty popular. Sheriff there were a lot of people in the community who felt that he did some good things at the sheriff's office when he first still felt like he. cleaning up crime in the streets southern ohio has very major drug problem with opioids in methamphetamine. Sentinel and all of it and a couple of members of the community claims that reader really was there for the family after one of their members died from a drug overdose and health. Plan a memorial tree in his honor so he was very approachable. Key was out and about in the community. Much more charlie. Reader printed himself as the people sheriff during the height of the road and murder investigation. Sheriff readers passionate pleas for justice earned him the trust of his community as a sheriff pike. County were at three hundred fifty six days into this investigation of got a message for the killers. We will find you. We will arrest you and you will be prosecuted. As this case niche forward. The spotlight grew brighter and brighter and that area. Because of this case and i think he enjoyed the spotlight to a degree. I think he had greater political aspirations as well. Here's producer chris graves speaking with investigative reporter. Jodi bar he covered the road. Murder case for fox news nineteen in cincinnati. What kind of power does a sheriff wheeled in a community like fight county. He was the closest to the people. Pike county and you see that with a lot of elected officials in more rural areas that you know the sheriff is literally the top dog in the county. He is the face of law enforcement. He controls what happens with law enforcement. Where patrols happen and he so as far as an elected official as far as a person holding. Power your sheriff in these areas demand. Something like that. Go to someone's head you've worked in law enforcement yourself for quite a while. Oh yeah you see it. a lot. Police chief sore sheriffs or somebody who's recently promoted to a supervisory position. I mean thank goodness. That doesn't happen to a lot of them but some of them the dodge now whether that happened here not i don't know but yeah that that very much could happen as the rodman moved into. Its second year. Some disquieting rumours about sheriff reader began to surface as we began to spend more time out there. We started hearing the rumblings that arison corruption out there. We had heard rumors about him. Intimidating people and possibly taking money from people who were in the drug dealing business. I know i for one was told by some of my law enforcement sources in the cincinnati area. Hey you need to be careful around him. He sturdy and these were just people that were my sources who said you know. Look i just want you to be aware. Be careful was because they were afraid. It didn't trust him. They did not trust. Charlie reader a rumor that he was Sexually harassing some female employees when he worked at the ross county at juvenile detention center records from his personnel file said that He wasn't the right fit and there were too many questions yet. A lawsuit in small claims court in nineteen ninety five and gala police for not paying a debt and there was a warrant issued for him but he ended up paying it. So i mean there were some things out there. There appears to be two sides of charlie reader. One that you know the public sees and they saw these nationally. Televised broadcasts press conferences. Where readers very emotional talking about these rodent murderers very early on and then there is something you see in charlie reader aware when readers challenge you another side of raider so he's he's got a very public face in a very private face. Then oh yeah. Investigators recently towed vehicles. That had been part of the homes where eight members of the rodent family were found. Shot to death in pike county ohio last month before mobile homes themselves where the bodies were found will be removed from the scene to be stored at a location in nearby waverley again right outside investigator reporter jodi bar live in pike county. While i was in pike county i started seeing things that i had to question what we found at that evidence warehouse where the trailers vehicles the equipment that all belong to the rodents was shared office and bci took that so we found problems with the security of that evidence and the security of that warehouse. I'm not an attorney. I've never prosecuted the case. I've never collected evidence for what i do know. Is that evidence that is collected has to be secured. I've seen prosecutions lost in courtrooms in the states. I've covered because someone's fail to secure one piece of evidence. And of course charlie reader was so central to what we were looking at. Is the man in charge that we had to go find him. We scheduled the interview and we sat down. And we had this conversation with charlie reader. And i wanna say lasted maybe forty five minutes to an hour and again back to watching the two sides of cheerleader. You had the emotional charlie reader early on in the interview where he's talking about. You know the roads and you know what this is done to pike county and then i broke out and ipad and on that i've had. I had visuals the images that i taken from that warehouse at the gate standing while another game cheered with a piece of thin wire days and nights of no law enforcement at that where how and i think reader new during the middle of that interview that this was not going to look good when we recorded it that will we found there looked terrible and it reflected on the job he did. So i saw charlie reader change but he changed into defensive at red face but rear finally admitted that they did not have a deputy posted at that warehouse watching that evidence. Twenty four seven. What sheriff reader did next destruct seasoned reporter. Jodi bars troubling. Here's dodi's firsthand. Account of the interaction so the interview ins and photographer and i are tearing down the equipment and trump walks out. The front door of the old sheriff's office in waverly were standing on the porch of that sheriff's office in reader. Wants to make a deal and he says if we'll just hold off on the report of the evidence where how and wait until they can return property to the family that reader would lead us in full access to him and turley readers story of the first one hundred hours after the road murders and i just told him no. We don't make deals several months. After that report aired. I got messages from people in pike. County what after the other telling me that there was a raid underway at this road. Evidence warehouse in waverly well. I dropped everything i was doing at. Cincinnati intro the two hours east to this warehouse. In when i got there there. They were shared. Charlie reader deputies. The pike county sheriff's office carrying things in and out of this warehouse. And you know. I'm standing there wondering what is going on here. This shouldn't be happening unless there's something happened. We don't know about involving the rodent murders. This was a great public concern but that night reader would not return my phone calls. It was very contentious trying to get information out of pike county out of the sheriff's office at a point but after that we were never able to access him again. Despite scharf readers apparent mishandling of aspects of the road murder investigation authorities were able to put the wagner family behind bars and twenty eighteen however just weeks later area journalists got word that a different investigation unrelated to the road and murderers was underway. One that placed sheriff charlie reader on the other side of the law. The state auditor's office released documents to all of us. That stated an anonymous tip had come in to the auditor's office in which someone stated that everyone was scared to death of reader that he was basically a monster and investigators need to look into a safe that was in his office. That contained money seized in drug deals and it also said something about him possibly gambling in. Is this really wore on. The investigation continued and then word started spreading around pike. County really took. What was going on with charlie reader to a whole new level in june of two thousand nineteen. A grand jury brought forth sixteen charges. Against sheriff charlie reader as a result. He was suspended from office bringing his three year. Tenure sheriff to a close. The indictment laid out details of the investigation and his crimes. Reader originally faced several counts of theft in office which is a felony on aisle as well as tampering with evidence which is also a felony in ohio. So what happens is charlie. Reader has a pretty sizable amount of money. He's taken from alleged drug dealers in pike county. Sheriff every law enforcement agency and the entire country much less than including ohio is allowed to seize money from suspects if they think that that money or those goods are being used in the commission of a crime money that was seized it in drug cases to supposed to be secured in a safe or in a bank account or something and you can use them for education purposes for the sheriff's department You can contribute to appropriate charities but in these cases at least on two occasions the allegation was that he took cash and converted it to his his own use so the state auditor does their annual review of the books on the first passed the state auditors. Find some money missing out of the seizure account and then they go back to reader and apparently he tries to put it back by the that leads to the state auditor's office then diving into getting warrants and diving into his personal finance records. They find multiple expenses in multiple trips to casinos. Both in the area and out of state and tens of thousands of dollars spent a casinos impossible. Depth records are pretty clear that showed some pretty big losses at the race track and also They found that he would through more than twenty eight hundred dollars from Machines that the atlantic casino so it was pretty clear it was from gambling. Some of the other allegations were that a lotta times in drug cases cars are forfeited and in a couple of charges The allegations are that at the auction. he rigged it and engineered at that either era frank friends of his would get those vehicles and then turn around and sell them so they were very serious charges on september. Twenty four th twenty twenty sheriff. Charles reader pled guilty to five charges filed against him. They included two counts of theft in office two counts of tampering with evidence and one count of conflict of interest. A few months later he appeared in court for sentencing. It was the day that net levy would not soon forget. What was the mood like through all of this. I couldn't believe it when i got out there that morning. The street was blocked off. There were members of the us. Marshals service air the us marshals service bomb squad. Was there it. There were sheriff's deputies. There i mean this was quite the operation. There were snipers orioles. Actually have a photograph of a sniper on a roof and there had been some rumblings online apparently people encouraging people to show up at the courthouse to protest the sentence. There was some fear that people who were really hard core supporters of his might show up and try to do something dangerous in order to keep him from being sentenced to prison. It was crazy it had never even been like that for a wagner court hearing. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment last year. There was a victim of identity theft. 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Don't wait offer ends june thirteenth. Shell brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique carbon peel and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything shell brothers has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment only inside the courtroom. The mood was much different today. For sentencing in the case of ohio versus charles reader. He's number is twenty nine thousand nine hundred cr. Six eight reader had his sentencing in front of a visiting judge patricia. Cosgrove who had actually sentenced three previous ohio shares on corruption charges. Now we're five charges and all of those could have gotten him more than twelve years in prison. You see charlier eater. He's sitting court sitting beside his defense attorney at a table to the left. And at the table to the right the prosecutor who went to the grand jury got the indictments against raider. Who got the guilty plea from raider butts before and you see these two tables in opposition to one another and the judges in the center. There's a empty podium in the center and then you see people walk up to that podium. And they start telling these stories of the good deeds charter reader. Did in certain instances around that county. He went through one of the most horrendous crimes ever committed in our counties to my memory what he went through. I can't take the night. he went sleepless. What is family went through what had done to his health. But i believe in his heart. Charlie reader is a good man. Has charlie made mistakes. Yes ma'am he probably has. But in the bible it says eager without sin cast the first. I could though many rocks at resolved made mistakes to one fact. I know charlie was to count on when you need them and would vote for him today. Houston shortsighted standing. God is my witness after these people have said what they said you see reader. Walk up to the podium. Now hanson misdemeanor. He's instantly emotional. He's in tears. And he's asking the judge for mercy to be lenient with him and sentencing. This is where he is laying it all out and asking. The state of ohio for mercy said bad light only sheriff. I only ask that their families. The community in my family was here today for him from the undue stress. Like those. I have an i l. prayed that work will fight mercy on me the same that i have. I feel that i have betrayed. Just play the trust of. I had with my staff the community. Please send me to prison. I have roamed. But i'm not. I still have a lot of good. Lifted during the proceedings. Details of readers crimes where luminated would note that the defendant was laughing county. Sheriff who committed these crimes is position is county sheriff Used his position to obtain control over evans bags and then use that control to remove the fines and use them for his own benefit. The majority of the funds involved were removed from the four evidence. Bags cut open by defendant. A fourteen thousand seven hundred. Seventy five dollars was removed fryer to defend in his attorney turning those bags over to investigators for the author states office the different currency new cases uncirculated bills was were put into the currency bags so that restoration would have been taken care of that point. Additionally there's a total four thousand eight hundred fifty dollars outstanding three thousand five hundred from the purchase of the nissan versa. Which was the profit made by the sheriff on that action. Three hundred fifty dollars the purchase of people who purchased the chevy silverado. In one thousand dollars seats never made it into the ovens so judge. Patricia kaas grows. She has a reputation for being very tough on sheriffs in in ohio who have been engaged in corruption and she is no nonsense and she questioned reader from the bench. During the judges questioning. Sheriff reader did his best to explain his more motivation behind his actions. Why did you cut open these evidence envelopes and take the money out and some cases you put back although newer caught because the envelopes had been unsealed in seal again improperly end. The denominations did not match what was taken at the crime scene from those individuals. I guess why did you take the money. I took the money in mind you. This does not excuse the from drug dealers that took it from parents. Very poor people in this camp that money regardless of what the and what the media has claimed in the past years of a gambling problem and that money being used for gambling was used when there was a tree planted in the name of the shelton boy. It's at the in terms of western high school to the left. As soon as you pull in. Nobody can pay for that treat. Nobody offered to pay for that tree. A drug door did when schools had cheerleading or peewee. That had car washes and such. I would have our cruisers taken down there. My men and women did not make good money so some of them would give them two dollars five dollars. I took money from that. And i provided it to those people in psi the presents the gatien the psi officer. Notes that there's no documentation that you use it for those things. I did not document. He didn't produce any receipts to back. These claims up. And we're still stood process by which those are tracked and you have to produce An accounting of all of that money so he claimed that he was essentially a robin hood. The judge certainly didn't believe it but then the judge started asking him questions about gambling. There were a couple of times judge cosgrove all the economy and she. She sounded very very skeptical. Let's stop here for another quick break. 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Check out of us at movers. Diamonds dot com again. That's mervyn's diamonds dot com. Did you lose three thousand dollars. Gambling at this downs received between june. Two thousand seventeen in september two thousand and seventeen. Yes not by myself. They have cards an of course again. You're on our guilty to this but they have carte that you put in a machine. I can have a card in my name. And i can have a card in my name that my wife is so i could be at one machine and she can be at the other and the money that she spends the money that i spend. They count on the same card and calculate the money as one obviously doesn't answer the question where the money in the checking account come from. Okay also yes you late june. Two thousand seventeen. You took a trip to reno nevada for the sheriff's conference and then you withdrew twenty eight hundred dollars an atm. This state believes that some of the gambling talking life go over almost six thousand dollars in a couple a months that you are asked expended on gambling that point we were making almost eleven thousand dollars a month and that again was from my checking account where it should show miodrag deposits my wife rex deposits and that. It came remark evid cards where i retrieve that money darn came from debit cards. The question is worded the money. Come when to check in. That's i guess. That's that's where that's where. The media reported that. I had marital problems because it came from our joint bank account. My wife made very good money at the time. Then i took that money and that's all the questions important. Has she really let him have it. She took no grief from him whatsoever. Be underestimated the damage. You have caused to the citizens of pike county to launch forcement. Yup face the same sort of stresses you do they all home at night They get up in the morning. They don't know if they're going to come home. The sacrifices that these men and women. And i think he made a mockery of i could have imposed a much greater sentence that i have as i said i've taken into consideration. Some of the mitigating factors but punishment is appropriate to sentence you to i consider the minimum power to sentence you to anything Less than three years in prison would demean the seriousness of the offense and not adequately protect society for future criminal conduct by yourself an honest the judge handed him three years in reader walked out of that courtroom and into jail sale to pay for throwing away. His career embarrassing himself and air thing is family she. He became a victim of his own power. You said a sheriff in the county lake. That is top dog right. Maybe he started feeling. He was above the law. The only fifteen years of doing this job looking at people like charlie reader in multiple states with multiple different schemes of crimes being committed. There's a trend with just shares. In general where a lot of them get in trouble is it because they feel so powerful and touchable. I don't know but man you look at it in the final analysis. What we have here is a guy in pike county who had the county by a streaming who had the trust of people who live in that county. So is it power. I don't know all that. I know at this point. Is you had an elected official. Who makes a pretty bad decisions and he's paying for it now. Have you gotten a sense. What the implications might be for the wagner cases that readers now going to jail there early facing down prison for whether or not that had anything to do with the actual investigation. No one knows by. If i'm a defense attorney all i gotta do is throw it that smokescreen at some point and see what happens and if i'm a prosecutor i'm thinking okay. I need to have a contingency plan to how to answer this. If you're the defense. I'm assuming you will bring it up in court. You'll you'll point to that if the judge allows it and say you know. How can you trust investigation. This man was out there on the scene that morning. I think it makes people in the county question. What's really going on there. While we wait to see how sheriff readers conviction will impact the wagner trials. One journalist continues to grapple with the legacy of the road and murders story. That forever changed her life more than five years ago. More on that next time for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us on instagram. At kt underscore studios the pike and massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay cownie a production of iheartradio. Kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. 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pike county charlie reader charlie ohio Pike county iheartradio katie studios gordon armstrong jeff shane sheriff charlie reader chris graves pay county rob john arison gala police Jodi jodi bar
Episode 7- 25 Miles South

The Piketon Massacre

28:52 min | 3 months ago

Episode 7- 25 Miles South

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Welcome to the painting massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios. There were always these rumors about michael moran and the women that he was around the circles he ran in this guy trafficking women all over the country from this little town. It's known as the epicenter of the opioid epidemic public knowledge. That was the crazy thing. Everybody knew the rumors and had known somebody that knew somebody that worked for him. Abors in it to michael ryan's name his cell phone number. I had all this remains that really impacted our area a lot of closure to these families who are told nothing by our local officials are local for this is the pike and massacre returned to pike county season. Two episode seven twenty five miles south. I'm courtney armstrong a television producer at kt studios with stephanie. Lie decker and jeff. Shane in episode five of this season. We explored the allegations of corruption and the subsequent arrest of pike county. Sheriff charlie reader but his story is just one of many that has illuminated alleged abuses of power perpetrated by those involved in southern. Ohio's criminal justice system so in this episode. We wanna focus on another case that has long affected a community. Just twenty five miles south of piked in in a town called portsmouth. Ohio in two thousand fifteen reporter named nicky blankenship began investigating rumors of human trafficking in the town like many small ohio. Town's portsmouth has a long rich history of industrial might preceding an era of rapid urban decay. Here's james pilcher. Reporter for local twelve news and cincinnati. Speaking with our producer. Chris graves the county seat of kyoto. County which right below pike county. So it's about thirty to forty five minutes out. The pike portsmouth has this. Rust belt burned out industrial field. There are half empty to empty factories in the middle of the city at one point. Us shoe had biggest plant there. And then obviously you know the global economy and we all know what happened to manufacturing in the mid west it still has a small profitable steel mill. Downtown it's barely hanging on. So kyle a city that was forgotten when the manufacturing industry began to disappear. Portsmouth was besieged by the drug trade nikki. Blankenship grew up in the area and saw the devastation firsthand. Your areas been really hit by the opiate crisis right. Yeah we call ourselves. Ground zero for the opioid epidemic. I've lived in ohio. Since nineteen eighty-four insider counties. Yeah lived here my whole life. I remember in highschool people around me. They would start out with small pain pills and oxycontin hit and it was no longer recreational drug use. That people were doing that parties. You're seeing people become addicted very very very quickly in two thousand eight. Nikki started writing about the issue for a local newspaper. I started out covering the drug epidemic. I was the first in the area to do stories on oxycontin looking at overdose rates in the area and started asking those questions from the coroner's office. About how many of these deaths that we're seeing are connected to opiate use and then started looking into komo's and we ended up shutting down over twenty three helmets inside a county nikki's reporting helps at a late on the areas drug problem but other elicit industries sprung up around it. Nikki was there to cover it all and twenty thirteen. I did a series that ran for months on prostitution and i was walking the streets with these growth. I also talked to you like parents of one then that we're working on the streets and talk to officers about the problem and local businesses about how it affected It was interesting. Because when i was doing these stories i started seeing a lot of names. Come up from these girls. The one mentioned most often was michael. Moran michael moran. He's in his mid seventies long-time defense attorney. You know the you is drug offenses those kinds of things yet. His own firm in portsmouth and at one point in the late two thousands got himself appointed as a city. Councilman of portsmouth is a very public person. So if there was a red cross danquah or something covering he would be there. So he's he's been around my whole career pretty much now. Rumors had been circulating about mike moran for years they stories about him being involved in prostitution prostitution god way back to the seventies. A lot of those stories are just about him. Hiring grows stance and Apple local parties and poker gangs. It was a secret the everyone choked about but no one really talked about and it was pretty common knowledge. I think. I mentioned like a red cross bank. I had to cover once. He was air with a girl known to be arrested for prostitution known to be arrested for drug abuse and she was there you could tell that. She was under the influence her behavior. She being very loud. I'm on a cell phone with this. And speaking very appropriately for the study and like just laughing with her at westerly councilman at the time. Actually wendover towards me jokingly elbow me in the side than said. There's mike at one of his girls. It's just always been known as nikki began exploring maran's ties to the local sex trade. The story grew much darker. I was interviewing some people who were in an inpatient treatment facility. And i found out that one of the women over the program was involved with a human trafficking program and so i started talking with her about human trafficking and she said that when women are arrested eleazar major moran has been going to see them in jail and charges and exchange floor doing sexual favors for him and working in prostitution nikki. Further explain the allegations levelled against moran by area. Women that the crux of what he does is. He offers his legal services to get these women out of jail and then put some under his employee. Yes he gets women out of gel and basically gets into his clutches. Our stories are the people are hired as dog walkers or as cleaners and and said are actually working in prostitution. An affidavit filed by the. Da would later support these accounts. James explained that this method of manipulation marks the distinction between prostitution and human trafficking from people will say oh well these women knew what they were doing. They were just trying to make money. These women were prostitutes. Well if you talk to the experts it went one step beyond that. It went into trafficking because some of those allegations moran was holding over them the fact that they were drug addicts even he would withhold their money or withhold. Their money wherewithal to get drunk so the statute says if you withhold or threatened to withhold money that women need for drugs or withhold. The drugs trafficking. 'cause it's coercion anytime you can prove coercion. It's traffic both in ohio law in federal. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Remember the saying if you love something. Set it free. If it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with well when it comes to your identity. The folks at lifelock totally disagree all those nights working overtime. Saving up all that money paying off all that debt and now some identity thief wants to try and set it free. They say that's crazy talk and we agree. That's why lifelock by norton helps monitor your info and alert you to potential entity threats. And if you do become a victim a dedicated us-based specialist will be there to help fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses but when identity thieves. Try to take what you were as you don't have to take it lying down. Save up to twenty five percent of your first year by going to lifelock dot com slash. Piped-in that's lifelock dot com slash biden for twenty five percent off. Shell brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring shall brothers has to offer visit us today at shell. Brothers dot com models currently open by appointment. Only some believe michael moran's reached goes farther than even human trafficking in two thousand thirteen. A portsmouth woman. They meghan lancaster disappeared. Michael moran has denied any involvement or responsibility in her disappearance. Additionally authorities have not brought any charges against him in the case at this time it's unclear whether they have questioned him in the matter. Megan is probably the case that is closest to my heart than that's mostly her sister-in-law catering catcher has screamed in screaming the screen on her behalf. My name is katie lancaster the sister-in-law amvest friend of megan lancaster who's been missing from soda counties since april third two thousand and thirteen who was Megan lancaster and how did you meet. We met at a called saturday county joint vocational school. We were taking calls mythology and she is a wonderful loving. Give the shirt off her back person that i know for a fact that this tragedy had to happen to anybody. She would have given everything she had to save the next person. Megan katie formed and unbreakable bond and soon became family members. I was spending about every night with megan. Pretty much donskoy. Megan would say my brother wants to take you on a day. So as to the okay. Okay like i'll take me for dinner so on and so forth and i did that. Well i never left. I was seventeen and we just hit it off and ellen rob katie and megan's brother jimmy were married in two thousand and five a few months later. Katie became pregnant soon after. Megan did as well. I went into labor august. Thirty first had my baby. September first like in the middle of the night and she had her baby november force. Though we were legitimately only you know a couple months. Apart in two thousand six meghan gave birth to a son named reese. Being a young single mother was tough but megan seem to have a bright future ahead of her. In sports she played she played to the fullest. She was there for her team. Always tearing everybody on the softball. She was the pitcher. She had a full ride scholarship to shawny state. I mean emmy nagin couldn't have been any smarter than what she was. Despite her intelligence and athleticism megan fell victim to the drug epidemic. That gripped the portsmouth area. She was that you know that she used drugs. That she used a needle. It was rough and i would tell her. I would say meagan. I would try to play. Both sides like her friend and her sister-in-law. I would say megan. You need to get helping. You need to change for you first and foremost what at the same time. You need to do it for rees because he needs in. Our answer was katie. Why change it. Now everybody's gonna look at me the same way. I'm never gonna live down the things i've done. I'm never be able to change that opinion that people have of me. She just couldn't pass the past. He you know of things that she felt people would never forgive. And then the point took over megan and it led to more years later a strange encounter with meghan would leave katie forever. Suspicious of one local man. Michael moran. I was in walmart with jeremy. And all of a sudden i see megan gump bouncing down. The i'm unlike what the l. was she wear. It was literally lingerie to be honest. Because you said. I'm here to get something for this party. I'm doing for moran. It's a bachelor party. And i'm dislike okay but again what what. Why are you in here in the. Is this what. I'm wearing to the party. And i'm like get whatever you're getting and get the heck out of here before you get arrested for indecent exposure. Can you describe april third. Twenty thirteen april third twenty. Thirteen meghan went missing that day. She was with her mom as she went to her. Mom's early in the morning said mom. I need to pay my insurance. Because she had been pulled over in cold war record been impounded for literally like sixty dollars in back child support or something so her mom followed her to portsmith nagin got in her mom's card imports with they wrote down to the bonding company. They paid her insurance then got back in her own car her mustang and they went their own ways later that day. Megan culture mother marcie to make arrangements to see her son. She said mom. I'll be there to stay the night with race but that night meghan never showed up in the next day march Get a hold over. Couldn't went buyer apartment. Her car wasn't there more stop. She's out running the streets or whatever you know run in the roads much more about it. Two days later on april fifth megan's car was found in the parking lot of a local fast food restaurant. She was nowhere to be found. What second about the car was the fact that it was up on the curb and megan would never have parked it like that. She especially she might pulled in if she was in a hurry again. God out and got something got right back in the car and left but she would have never pulled in there to leave it there like that inside. the car. police found megan's wallet and a small notebook that contains some suspicious entries. She left clues as to who she'd been working for which even up to yes. She left abors in it. They actually said dance. Four and michael. Maran's name his cell phone number and how much he paid her to dance. We know we have. This problem is missing and we know we have this problem with women. Hope if found dead in their cases never their murders of never been solved and despite that car set her mom talked to twenty thirteen. And there's Documents where they took it where they took. The car to evidence dated showing that and it was really katie. And megan's family that did all of the investigating and hire private investigators. They took get any cooperation from local police. So it's megan's case really. It's the only one that has really been made public so people can see exactly what these women have gone through and how these things have happened. My an was running a decades long sex trafficking operation. We're talking about some serious abuse of power. What are your thoughts on that. Abuse of power makes me completely fucking sick. Excuse my language. But i don't know how else to put. It makes me sick because you know. He's in this position to help people to help rebuild their lives if a vin in trouble once or twice drug charge whatever they send them to treatment. They do this. They do that but he takes it a step further and takes them like bison what they want courses them into these things that they've never had before and then boom. That's on drugs back to doing what they were doing. Back in trouble and to me. That is sickening. And there's no excuse for it. Do you think. Mike moran is involved in making spirits. I do believe. Michael moran is involved in megan's disappearance and i do believe that we will eventually tie mike moran q. megan's disappearance. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back. In a moment we're making lower emission. Vehicles are priority reusable packaging our priority and carbon capture research to offset emissions our priority because earth is our priority at fedex. We knew sustainability. Means a lot to you and we feel the same way. Our goal is to be carbon neutral by two thousand fourteen. We call it priority earth fedex. Were now meets snacks. Hi everyone this is tamra bridget. And adrian habit and with host of sweat the details a brand new podcast from under obama and iheart radio. It's a show or women by women. Aim to spotlight leading voices in today's fitness industry. The bigger relationship the more fun you have with your team at south carolina and ah dallas slings. It wasn't so much of my teammates was more my sister's it was a sisterhood. That was our circle in nothing. Could break our circle or von. We're ready to shake up what it means to be a woman in sport. Today it's compensations fueled by the latest scientific research about personal fitness. Listen to sweat the details on the iheartradio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. What's it like to go through losing a family member or friend but not actually knowing what happened to them it's hell. I was talking to my mother-in-law about this today. You know people lose people all the time and they have a grave to somewhere they can go visit that they show that that person is there or they have ashes. They have for whatever. What have you. But we have a flipping sign with missing on it that we decorate and it is heartbreaking heart. Not to know whether she's hungry she's cold. She's meeting her to abuse or worse she's dead not to know that is so hope i see her. Mom susser daily on courtly. I see her. Pay me boy suffer very badly and i'm not saying that you know. He cries every day or no not saying. Here's a lot of questions we can't answer but i can guarantee you. I will stop talking. Answer surmount care if he's twenty five thirty thirty five forty Around that long. I'll fight until i can answer this questions for him. In an interview moran claimed that he only knew megan as a police informant who is tied to with drug case. He tried years back when asked about what may have happened to. Her moran believed that she may have been murdered though. He had no information to support his statement. It should be noted that there have been no other specific allegations tying moran to the disappearance of any other women nikki. Blankenship continued her investigation into human trafficking in portsmouth but her attempt to report on the areas missing women was met with some pushback. You kind of started this with this story. The seemed to have been local knowledge that no one was reporting on right when i was. I saying. Talk about the missing women. I was told that it didn't matter if there was proof it was. Can we talk about the missing women. Can i talk to their families. I was told nikki. Didn't let that stop her. So i i have seen these things personally insider cownie. We say that everyone's affected because if it's not your friend is or your family member. It's at least you went to school with everybody. Know somebody who's been affected by the drug epidemic and everybody knows somebody who has turned costitution so this is a pretty personal story for you. Yeah i spent highly my whole career. I like working on this and nobody was listening to their stories before or seeing them as even human. That really made me connect with a lot of these people in their stories. Living here my whole life these are my friends and my family members as well not specifically. I have so many friends overdose. I have so. Many inset have battled addiction and a lot of people i went to school with are are gone now. I have several friends from high school that ended up working in prostitution. People are human and yet they're seen as a prostitute or inadequate exactly and that makes people not really care what happens to them that makes people assume that they chose some lifestyle that is dangerous. Amex assume that they somehow are asking for that. Or whatever happens as a part of a lifestyle they chose and so they just turn a blind eye. And i think that's another thing that has made it so easy for to happen and the habit right in public as people see them as prostitutes addicts. Nikki didn't give up. Searching for proof linking michael moran to portsmith sex trafficking industry. I was at home. A lot At night just going through court documents than talking families because l. all these families we always made trusted so then for me it was like how do i get something more than a story from family member or even a girl. I need some proof. Finding some kind of document in two thousand seventeen. She got it. A man named mark eubanks reached out to her and pass along. A copy of a sworn affidavit filed by the drug enforcement agency mark eubanks. He had been reading my stories on human trafficking and on the heroine epidemic. And he smelled me. A copy of the silt. Affidavit was actually a part of his case and had told me history which was he has been arrested on charges and when he was arrested he was immediately taken a given lie detector tests about missing women at dead lemon. Mike moran human trafficking the affidavit lee out southern ohio drug task force and fbi that had been underway since twenty fifteen investigating michael moran and his ties to area sex trafficking. He's accused of trafficking women all over the country from new york and new jersey florida racketeering and compelling at partying prostitution and other thing. That is in the affidavit that he was working traffickers and there was a wiretap where they were able to hear some of the conversations between moran drug traffickers and he was getting drugs from these drug traffickers in order to provide to the females a he had or for him the athol david reciprocally talks about whom working web liberal judges and law enforcement and adult probation. Macy's things happen. Nikki finally had to prove she needed that validated. The stories told by portsmouth's most vulnerable women. But when she brought the document where editor she was shocked. Nato told me no. We're not going to publish. Michael moran would later be arrested and charged with eighteen. Felony counts including promoting prostitution and trafficking in persons He was released on a three hundred thousand dollar bond which was later revoked after he violated the terms of his agreement. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and staunchly maintains his innocence. He is now under house arrest while he awaits trial. We'll bring you the second part of the michael moran story in episode nine but next week will be hearing from some of our regular contributors who will discuss updates from accused brother george wagner the force. Most recent pretrial hearing for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us on instagram at. Kt underscore studios the piped-in massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and katie studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows a shell. Brothers is now building new homes in unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour. You can discover shah unique curb appeal and sensational floor. Plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything. Show others has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment only been thinking about mcdonald's all day can't get it off my mind i can already tasted. Oh my mind on my mouth and my mouth ready for some mickey. D's deal is a deal for every moment at mcdonald's right now get to your favorites for just. Three fifty makes magic. Classic mcchicken a hot and spicy chicken or a juicy mcdonnell price and participation may vary cannot be combined with combo meal single item at regular price.

megan portsmouth michael moran nikki pike county Michael moran moran mike moran katie studios meghan courtney armstrong kt studios Megan Sheriff charlie nicky blankenship james pilcher pike portsmouth Nikki
Crime & Media

The Piketon Massacre

29:57 min | 2 months ago

Crime & Media

"The business roundtable stands with the millions of americans across the nation calling for policing reform. We urge members of congress to continue working together to pass. Bipartisan policing legislation. That can be signed into law before. August recess paid for by business roundtable the greatest diamonds in the world of found at service. Before you pop the question visit moves. Diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices moves. Diamond is the region's first choice at murders you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Say you know value great and fabulous prices. It's the modus way. That's why i was honored by washington post as best place to buy a diamond check. Our views at moves diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamonds dot com. This is the. Pike massacre returned to county season. Two bonus episode crime and media. I'm courtney armstrong television producer at kt studios with jeff. Shane and stephanie lie. Ducker ceo and founder of kt studios and producer of the pike and massacre over. The course of the last decade. True crime has exploded as the go-to genre across media platforms and telling the story of the rodent family in their murders. We've often asked ourselves. Why are we as creators of the series so interested in the story. And why are you the listener so fascinated by it so we gathered a group of experts to explore these questions and ask ourselves. Is it a crime to love true crime. The true crime podcast audiences seventy five percent women. That's kind of an astounding stat right. Well i think as we are more socialized to know that the world could be dangerous in us a place. That's dr heidi horsely. She's a psychologist specializing in grief. Counseling and his co founder of the open to hope foundation or constantly looking at our bass being very aware of our surroundings nothing in allies at night. you know. we're very very aware that we be victim us. So i think that and i also think women are very social we. We're very connected. One understand other people. I think we tend to be very people oriented earned maybe in family oriented. Nothing arch but often slim our remorse. And maybe that harbors. Well like protecting our pack. It's an interesting thing. Because i hadn't realized the true crime audience was quite as skewed towards women as it is and i'm certainly a watcher also and i think it allows us to feel to. You know we see something that's like love based or brings us laugh films. Get to make us feel things that maybe we don't necessarily want to feel jeff as a man. What do you think about that. It's definitely a different experience. Being a man like i don't have to look over my shoulder in the same way. After a certain age. I think for most men. You're not prone to being a victim. And i can walk through a parking lot without fear which i think is a privilege that i have not fully appreciate until working with courtney and stuff on crime projects so being aware of that privilege i think is has been eye opening and i think putting myself in your shoes in listening to a podcast i would like. Oh yeah that's a red flag. You could see how a toxic relationship between jake and hannah or however you describe it. What can you learn from that. It's way easy to spot things in other people's lives in our own to you know so there is a real tool from that we can look at anybody and say oh. I see the red flag bear and is that bad from psychological even for listeners. Who are listening to this driving on their way to work or you know doing whatever it is we do when we hear a podcast is it because we are desperate to hear other people's bad stuff because our lives feel better. I don't think so. I think it's people are desperate. Hear really extreme tales because it helps us categorize things in our own life and maybe look out for things differently because when you're in the thick of it it's really hard to see out of trouble. Sometimes we don't spotted as cleanly in our own lives journalists. Chris graves covered the road. Murders for the cincinnati inquirer. She was in pike county just days after the roads were murdered. Twenty sixteen her reporting was important and giving a voice to the victims families in the early days of the investigation. Chris gave us her frank assessment on the rise and true crime content. You know this will sound Sound really really basic. But i think you you start from a place. If this were me how would i want to be treated. We have to rise above the tiny story that just hurts people. You know the showing up in jamming the microphone in somebody's face. And how do you feel. And i mean if i were going to be completely candid. I think constantly thinking you know is it information or is it entertainment. We have to figure out a way to move beyond that salacious entertainment. Whatever there are fascinating deep stories to be told and lord only knows. This story has so many elements of storytelling. But there's a way in which you can tell it with. I hope i hope. Without taking advantage of people you know we did go to pike county and you know to your point knocked on doors without a microphone without a camera for all the obvious reasons and it is. It's it's hard on the heart. We do try to be thoughtful knowing that that would be really difficult if it were my door that somebody was knocking on. But i don't know. I don't know what the answer is there. If nobody hears it then also we're not doing our job either new say entertainment. We have a standoff in that. Because i don't really see it as entertainment. I also think bigness is sometimes. We're in the emotion business right. It's almost like a shout from the rooftop of here. This see this this happened. This is a time stamp on something. And what's the balance of that. How do you balance being respectful of people's lives and also people want to know every detail of the story. How do you balance that in terms of making it respectful to what happened but also allowing people to consume it. And take that in. Yeah that's a good question. i think you try to. You know while using finding fact. I think you also tried to approach people with compassion and empathy. Focus on the person's life. You know be accurate. There's nothing worse than getting stuff wrong especially with someone who doesn't have a voice anymore. Avoid gory details. Just because the ori do they need to see that. will it. cause unnecessary harm to people. Will i re victimize people but the gory details to some extent is what differentiates one thing from another in the spirit of making sure that people are being emotionally charged and mad as hell. Is that wrong. It is extraordinarily a gory case. There were three children. Left alive live at the scene and very hideous circumstances. Imagine a four day old being in her mother's arms while she's shot two times in the face right. We know that is disgusting. But some of this is shocking. And if you don't feel shock then you don't hear the story. How much is too much in terms of sharing an over sharing the gory. So i think my point in saying that is being careful that we don't just report for lurid curiosity. Some of that is also making sure that. Hold the power in the interview and again. I'm not talking about politicians but those who get thrust into this horror through no fault of their own and they deserve that power and that voice. And i see myself just sort of as a conduit you know i'm an ear and macondo at and i tried to share a story hopefully in an empathetic compassionate way But your approach matters a lot. Chris i just wanted to say something about approach is i completely agree with what you're saying. The flip side of all of this is when i work with the nine eleven families for ten years. Initially after the nine eleven events the media descended on people and they did not show up not endorse the hid in bushes. They were intrusive in invasive. They wanted to catch the families that i work with in their most vulnerable positions and it was extremely overwhelming for the families and it wasn't helpful in many cases not in all cases because more people that were there for the reasons but there were other people they just wanted to get the story and then leave what we ought to be asking all the time you know. What are we doing where we at. I guess my challenge to all of us. doing this. Work is to think about minimizing harm. And what does that mean and it doesn't you know i also want to be clear. That doesn't mean that. Sometimes when i'm interviewing people i'm i'm sure i'm causing some harm. I'm asking people to relive and tell me where they've gone and what they've experienced when i did the interview with bobbi jo and and certainly went into fairly graphic detail about what she found. Now again i tell you. I didn't write everything But i thought you know in that balance in constant balance all the time. How much is too much. What isn't enough you know. I thought her description. Of bending. Over the bodies you know of frankie and hannah hazel to get the baby was compelling but my point in saying that is i thought that scene said more than just the gory detail to in my way of thinking like okay. She comes upon this. You've got two people to obviously you know shot multiple times I mean she didn't tell me that but the way she described it sounded like that but yet they leave the baby alive As that interesting so that to me. Was i mean again. I didn't put it in just because it's you know. Wow that's a really interesting thing. In boy i could be in all. It is interesting. But i think it's interesting in what it says about at the time. What it said about the killers that you know. They didn't kill everybody and what's up with that. Why would they do that so either. The person kellyanne was absolutely one hundred percent monster or at had been somebody who knew them who couldn't kill a child. So what does that say. That is the story that i think certainly for myself personally. Relieved tipped me over the sheer horror of putting yourself in bobby. Joe manley's shoes even if it's a stretch to be able to do so i can't imagine anything more hideous right. Of course we put ourselves in that position very quickly realized. Wow that is something. That's really hard to come back from. In maybe had you not reported about it. I would personally be as mad as hell as i am about it right. Oh in we wouldn't feel as hyper connected to the victims and the victims families. Certainly if you're not a relative or you're not from the hometown of the exact same place you have a different perspective coming into it where you could step in and say well. That doesn't really add up. Why would it cartel hit equal babies alive in dodd's allied like doesn't really seem like the emo but again if you're super close to it it's hard to see that potentially and i really applaud that as an example of something that makes people emotionally get attached to making sure that justice is served. What you're saying so important. I mean we need to get people. Return to care and dwayne do that is to them duty stories into that into that wall capturing the moment and bring listeners into that monster so they can kind of visualize embi there and like you said stepney. The anger is how and you're creating awareness and you know you're building a platform for the story and in long creating change. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Shelf brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything. Shop others has to offer visit us today. At shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment. Only it's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. Using in-depth genetic analysis and real time bloodwork forwards top rated doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plans to help guide you to achieving long-term health with forward you get unlimited in person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more that's go forward dot com reporter engine levy and forensics expert. Joseph morgan join the conversation. What compels you in terms of getting to the bottom of stories and telling stories that happen to people. I've never been satisfied until. I know every detail and i think that i always want to know what happened and make sure that i know the true story of what happened. You know somebody kinds our stories where you don't know what happened you don't know the truth or you feel like you know the truth but not the whole truth and that was one of the things for me and especially with this case one of the things that was just so awful you know we. We've ever awful things in the business. We don't go to work every day and get to do happy stories most of the time. It's something sad or something serious. And i just think it's bad enough. When one person is killed in a story to have eight people killed all in one night. Eight people in one family to have one family wiped out with little kids a baby newborn babies sleeping right next to her mother Sick and i think that it was a different kind of case in that respect because people should be able to lay in their homes at night next to their children and not fear being shot in the head or or killed or shot in any way you know that is. It goes against every kind of human feeling. I have as a human being that we should be treated each other the kindness and humanities. You know i got into this business to tell true stories to make a difference so You know. I always try to go the extra mile and this this case. Was you know just particularly horrifying and he can't let your emotions like influence. How you tell the story that you have to bring some humanity to it chris. Why did you become a journalist and specifically in true crime. I like finding out information. I think i'm insatiably curious. And i like to find out you know why things happen. And how they happen amend big wyan how person and the thrill of finding out information. What can i do in a day. They just started covering it. This world of knowledge that different pieces of people can figure out to me and they can piece it together and they can. And then there's justice right and then you use all of that for the you know seeking of justice and how the systems work is really interesting to me. Hell things work how. The court system works why what's going to happen. What do they need to prove as all. It's all part of the same sort of ingredients in the soup. I think joseph. How did you get into this line of business. What made you grow up. And say i want to be a medical examiner for me. It was fascinating. You see it from the perspective of all the peripheral issues that come up in that you see what's left behind and their weight. No life that they live. What's in their chest drawers at home. what's sitting beside the chair That daddy said in all the time lazy in front of the tv. You know the little table there where he kept his piper. Maybe what was mama hiding in the kitchen cabinets stuff that people don't see and i think this goes back to the bigger issue. The reason i think that this this is so compelling with all of these other cases and is dictated by geography is dictated by personality of a place pipe in pike county. It has it's i it is in the story in the story of these lives lost. It's it is a care. What is our obsession with true. Crime as those who follow it closely and dedicate our careers to it. What's up with that or storytellers. I mean back from the beginning of time right. I mean even caveman time. We were drawing pictographs to communicate so we we have a human desire to communicate and their compelling stories. Something bad happened and we want to find. I think we are seekers of truth or seekers of fact. How did this happen. That's why we rubber neck at car accidents and truthfully it's the classic good versus evil right good and bad. I think that's what draws us two things. I mean religious text. I mean most novels. Most i mean are you know. There's there's a protagonist in an antagonised. Also i was reading about why people love true crime as the adrenaline russia. Vet that you get this kind of your heart rate rises and you feel like what you feel like when you go on a coaster. I agree with you jeff. I think that listen to true crime. We're going on the trip taking the trip with people you know we. We might be just watching like you said our heart races. We get anxious. I mean you know it takes us into those phases and it does give us an. I come here through my own story my own trauma so you know. I don't know our people stories but you know my brother cousin giant dramatically when the car they were driving in seventeen years old love and i was extremely traumatized by the way that they die how they die and to my journey i was in a very dark place into my jury or darkness is the lying and you know us what how helped me to help on the people you know worked your firefighter families for ten years after nine eleven same families watch them he'll and research shows that peer support is one of the main things that help people out dramatic losses and like you said listening to other people had dramatic losses and not only survived but thrived house ours ended also helps he bowl. It normalizes people's experiences when they're going through dramatic loss to hear other people that have been that even the losses are different. I also think we're a little obsessed with death right. It's like one of the few things that we all can agree on. We all going to die at some point in the circumstances by which we do is very unknowable. For the most part and listen. We know we're going to have there's always going to be life in. There's always going to be death in how we die in. The circumstances is something that i have to assume slightly intrinsic for all of us to be curious about. I agree with that. I think every single time somebody dies. You're sharing at your mortality. I think that's why death is so difficult like you said this puts every time you you read here about these things like the massacres. You think about your own holiday. You're on safety your own death you know it. Just you start obsessive. Think about these things. i think. That's pretty normal. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. Love can make you stupid so think smart about her dream diamond before you take the plunge visit moves. Diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices moves. Diamond is the region's first choice. At service you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and with a leading designer rings from tacori and verragio. You'll know why. Movers was honored by washington. Post as best place to buy a diamond. Check our reviews at moves. Diamond dot com again. That's service diamond dot com. This is urgent. It's been more than a year since george floyd's murder but this isn't about one event it's about fair policing and safe communities business. Roundtable stands with the millions of americans across the nation calling for policing reform. We urge members of congress on both sides of the aisle to continue working together to pass bipartisan policing legislation that can be signed into law before august recess. Paid for by business roundtable. If something tragic happened to you or your family would you want a podcast. Or a documentary about the story of your family's tragedy. Is that helpful. Does that move the needle. I kind of thought about that before. When people won't talk with media you know. I show up on doorsteps and a lot of times. People don't wanna talk and that they have different reasons for that. And i understand that but i always think to myself. Gosh if i lost a loved one. I would probably be doing anything i could to try to bring attention to the key to figure out how it could be solved. So i don't understand how some of the stanley make it through. Know i guess they say settled saying whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger by you through the will some of the people. I just admire their tenacity and their ability to live and move forward. If i were the victim of a crime or a family member of mine victims of crime. I i would want something done anything that could help. Bring some late to the case that would generate louis. There were generate anything that would lead to the truth being uncovered and somebody being held accountable. I was always info transparency. Thought why would anyone ever partake in a crime documentary or podcasts. And working in this podcast in particular. It made me realize that people who didn't know the victim don't speak for them or speak about them. Then we're just going to get the story wrong. It's impossible to know the intricacies of someone's life hearing it secondhand through you know through an article or youtube video so in doing that. I think being able to hear details about dana wrote in being an incredible mother and hard worker. Like that's what paints the picture and makes you care court. What about you. So something from last week really stuck out in the case of curtis jennifer forget angie montgomery has been tirelessly tirelessly looking for resolution that has yet to come and one thing she said and this was even in dealing with law enforcement was. Hey guess what. The squeaky wheel gets attention and can reinvigorate an investigation. And you don't know if you're walking around in town and the person guilty of murder of your loved one is checking you out of the supermarket so to be able to bring attention to what is paralyzing. Many families in unknown grief and just not knowing. I think that's really important. I sort of feel strongly that if somebody has experienced something very traumatic and the rest of us are not made aware of it from a human perspective in that we are not forced to really care about it and get mad about it and make sure it doesn't continue to happen again then. Maybe that's not okay either. We're all sort of connected by the stories. We share good and bad and some of these being so wildly extreme. I would always say if something happened to me or my family. Please please do a podcast. Or a documentary or shout from the rooftops that we did this in our good times and that whoever did this to us would be brought to justice and then i pose the same thing to joseph here years ago. I attended the first grandson on over bentiu as guest of people that were present in there. I was on panels. And all that sort of thing. And i didn't really know what to think about it. You know because when i think about something says khan in it always thinking about people dressing like cartoon characters you know and living out these alternative universes you know that they kind of exist in private lives and that sort of thing so i didn't know what to expect and i got there you know and as an old investigator Have people know that would approach me and they call me up at night. You know late night while it'd be there on desk at the emmys office in atlanta and they'd say looking for my mom she's been missing ten years and entertain sending people years and years and listen to their stories and they just want somebody to talk to. But this took on a different tenor from me. When i was there. Something that kind of hunch me that gut. These people were showing up and they weren't just true. Cram fans they were flying. All the way from places like seattle and these people would show up and they had files papers and there would walk up to bus tears in their us. Say please. can you help me. My sister was raped in dallas. Texas in nineteen seventy five. It killed my parents is still unsolved. Please help and they're openly weeping. You know and i was. I found myself in that moment. Tom surrounded by people like this. And there's this great unknown and unseen massive people out there that are not served and the reason they're not served is because right now as we speak don somewhere right now or across the nation and there are people that are in mourning. And can you imagine always being in morning and never being sock lot of people closure. A heat had the opposite because no one ever gets closure and a homicide. It doesn't happen. They just want answers. So you know for me personally. Yeah got bit. You know that anything would happen to me mine. I'd say yeah. Let the hod come with a hair. You know do it. I mean if it's going to bring about information not closure closures something that's abstract if it brings about more information's going to help people. Yeah i say let's do it for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us on instagram. At kt underscore studios the pike and massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves the pike and massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows shell brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything shell brothers has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment. Only do you wonder where your food comes from more. And more people to america's corn farmers work hard every day to grow a crop that you can be proud to serve your family. And they're doing it with an eye toward sustainability caring for water air soil and resources that fuel healthy families and more sustainable products. Take a look to find out how farmers in rural america worked to make life better for all of us from cities to their rural communities. 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kt studios pike county courtney armstrong Ducker dr heidi horsely open to hope foundation Chris graves cincinnati inquirer jeff bobbi jo hannah hazel kellyanne Joe manley Joseph morgan Chris washington post stephanie Pike Shane
Episode 7- 4,000 Miles Away

The Piketon Massacre

39:45 min | 1 year ago

Episode 7- 4,000 Miles Away

"In the land of diamonds mervyn king maker queen with a gorgeous nervous diamond before you go down on one knee visit diamond importers with a huge selection of high quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is washington's. First choice at murders you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Make a statement. They say you know value. Nine out of ten brides choose moves. Tenth is still speechless. Check reviews at diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamonds. dot com. Lost hills is a new podcast about a mystery. And i- billick malibu california when a man goes camping with his two young daughters and doesn't make it home alive after his death the cops follow a crumb trail of clues and arrest survivalist. They find camping in the woods. That's when things get complicated. Law tells is a shocking story that uncovers the dark truth about law enforcement in malibu california. Listen to lost tells on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the pike and massacre a production of radio katy studios episode seven. Four thousand miles. Away i'm courtney armstrong television producer at katy studios with stephanie decker and jeff. Shane after own family was brutally cut down in their homes. Authorities embarked on what would become the largest homicide investigation in ohio's history. Over the course of the cases first year law enforcement officers began compiling a staggering amount of clues that they hoped would lead to the killers. Ohio attorney general. Mike dewine giving an update in the pike. County received eight hundred eighty three tips. We've conducted four hundred sixty five interviews line. Says there have also been thirty. Eight search warrants issued but so far no arrests that we made significant progress but by early twenty seventeen the evidence that authorities had collected was pointing them towards one group of people in particular the wagner. Family that spring. With the case heating up the wagner's decided to leave the piped-in area With jake wagner and hannah rodin's daughter sophia until they sold their farm packed up their belongings and joe. Four thousand miles north to keanae alaska. A city of about eight thousand people southwest of anchorage. It was a move that wagner relative array not only encouraged but conceived of laid been wanting to move to alaska for a while because the pastor of the church known there he he's very important headstone and their family. I'm on told them. Go to alaska number one. The state of ohio cannot afford extra right you from back home. I just thought it was the greatest they took off. I said that's the best in the world for the kids and it's the best thing in the world for you guys. The family quickly got settled in keanae. They live together in a double wide trailer. On a large piece of property billion. Angela even registered to vote. Jeff talked to one of the wagner's family relatives who kept in touch with them while they were in alaska. She has not to use her name but told us about their life once they arrived. What was their life in alaska. Well jake has got a job stretching type business. Angela didn't work. I think she might have done some things from like home over the internet or something like that and bill. I'm not sure what he did exactly. But they did have a very nice home in alaska that they were in the process of trying to buy from what i understand anyways and Jake he had sofi at the time and they just kind of were getting the wagner sudden departure left the whole town of peyton bewildered and suspicious. Dana rodin's friends steph. Van remembers the day. She heard the news. She shared her thoughts with jeff or when they left for alaska hours like. Oh wow they're gonna they're they're ramat iran and then i thought there they'll get away with if they did this. If they did this they will get away with it or people talking about the wagner was the feeling that they might have been guilty or what. People thinking or speculating in town. Yeah they pretty much off the you know. That was the that was the deal. They were running traumatic. But the wagons relocation didn't hinder the investigation according to reporter james pilcher. It only helped to move the case forward. They moved to alaska which raise even more suspicion but then the very following my law enforcement actually finally searches the properties. Where the wagner's left so that was really the first public indication that the wagner's were possible suspects if not people of interest so that started to tighten the news in terms of the wagner's on june six twenty seventeen as the investigation pressed on attorney general. Mike dewine appeal to the public for information connecting the wagner's to the crime. Investigators want any information about the family including information about vehicles. Guns and ammunition. Anyone with information is asked to call the investigative journalists jodi barr recalled the attorney general's announcement other than being on the ground pike county and hearing wacker's names. Come up from time to time in you. you had no verifiable leads or you would exhaust all. That was the first time that anything was said in public from anybody with this investigation that they may have people that they looking at and who potentially at something to do with this time. When new stent of the evolvement of the investigators believed the wagons may have had it was just. They were asking for help. And that seemed really strange but it also the other end it connected some of the pieces that we have heard in the beginning know that maybe gave way to the custody issues that we were trying to dig into before but it was still just There was still confusing. That they would come out and say that and no arrests made no indictments made but yet they were asking for help. Does densify not unusual that they would just kind of like blatantly. Say a name and be like. Does anyone know anything about this person. Who's not had official suspect or someone. We've arrested even. It's just confusing. And i would love to have a male governor. Mike dewine played in the way they played it. Did they know they needed to know. Then were they. Try to the wagner's misstep when they nail this might winds press release prompted the wagner family attorney john k clark to accuse law enforcement of harassing his clients. Here's jeff followed by stephanie. In a statement. The cincinnati enquirer. The lawyer said that the authorities were clueless incompetent or they themselves were involved in a cover up in short. His clients were innocent. That's because according to clark the wagner's were cooperating with officials and had provided authorities with everything they had asked for including laptops phones and dna willingly and they also agree to repeat it interviews with the ohio bureau of criminal investigation. Clark even said the wagner's told bbc agents that they were in fact moving. I spoke with former prosecutor. Mike allen about the legal implications of the wagner's cooperation. What about the wagner's and their compliance with authorities. I know their lawyer has said they've cooperated one hundred and ten percent. Can you talk through the details of that. Sure i mean from what i understand. They did turn over some things. Laptops phones that they submitted to dna Getting exemplars which it could be compelled to do anyway Some of them at least were interviewed by ohio. Bci agents. and i guess they told those agents that they were traveling and and about the move to alaska and they claim they have been thinking about that for a long time. So i mean from what i can see. There was some cooperation but it was one hundred ten percent. I don't know. And frankly. I doubt because the rarely happens. Does that do anything when it comes to. Juries does that hold sway. it can You know in closing argument. The defense lawyer could stand up and say to the jury my client you know. He cooperated one hundred and ten percent. You know meaning that he has nothing to hide. The cincinnati enquirer even track the family down in alaska in july of twenty seventeen in a published article jake wagner said that he had moved to give so fia better life. This is jody bar again. The cincinnati enquirer obviously went there and they found him. I mean if they didn't try to slip off in the middle of the night it didn't seem i mean if a reporter could find him. Obviously law enforcement knew very much. Were they were at that point in time. I mean as far as the level of cooperation. We haven't heard anything. Yet that said the wags were operating with law enforcement. Did they do it. We want to know now. Obviously everybody wants to know right now you know. Let the process play out but man if they're cooperating as attorney says they're giving over computers laptop. dna whatever retakes you know people who aren't expiration criminology. We look at that and go man. That sounds like an innocent person. An innocent person will be doing that despite their involvement in a very large and very active investigation the wagner's were trying to start a new life in alaska and didn't seem to have any intention of returning. Here's our anonymous wagner family source. When i look at how things going you know winter. You guys get come back and visit or so for. She was kind of just really backwards about it. She never would really tell me what they were doing. She never really said when she would be back home to visit just that she misses you know and that she would love to be able to come home but right now. She can't and that she made the comment or and said that if she did get to come back that she couldn't tell me over the phone that she would just basically have to show up and that once she made it here then she would come. I let me know. But that she didn't want people find out about it in alaska. The family went about life as normal. They tried to fit into the local community and became parishioners at the local church. Their pastor even described them to the dayton daily news as quote. Good country people. We reached out to the pastor. Who declined to speak with us. It was at this same church jake. Wagner was introduced to another churchgoer. Elizabeth armor the couple dated for several months and then in march twenty eighteen. They got married. This is jody bar. I've seen you know people on no loss of spouse in their married again six months if he's innocent and he got remarried. He wanted to carry on with his life and maybe the nets it but if he really is guilty of having a hand in killing eight people and one of those being the mother of his own child and then he enters into valve with another woman in love that i don't know i don't know what kind of person you are dealing with here. Here's stephanie talking about what she learned by looking at. Elizabeth armour's facebook posts. She took to facebook to let the world. Now just how dangerous being involved with the wagner's could be elizabeth set in one of her post that god told her to come forward about her relationship with jake wagner according to her posts. Elizabeth met jake through the church and then was encouraged to get to know him by her pastor but she maintained that she had no idea that the wagner's were involved in such large murder investigation and when that news of the road massacre came up. The pastor had vouched for the wagner's telling her that the charges were just slander against the family. However in another post she said she wanted to just be a mother to sophia but that she ended up marrying her worst nightmare. All of those posts have since been taken down. We've tried to find her and contact her directly and she's literally nowhere to be found then. In the spring of twenty eighteen two years after the roads were killed. The wagner shocked. Everyone again this time. By returning to the piped-in area are wagner. Family relative explained why they decided to come home from what i have understood just a little bit. Let's talk to angela and then our family. In general talking they had earned came back wrong because belts family. Father got sick and they couldn't afford or they were losing what that home and everything that had their in alaska so i basically just like a handful of that type of stuff so they decided that they were gonna come back down here and they were just get everything basically situated here once that happens and once i got back on their feet basically than they were planning to go back. They wanted to go back. Angela wanted to go back there. She made that clear To her father multiple times that that was going to be you know they were really looking forward. She believes in just wanted to be there but they had a bunch of stuff is thought. Take care of in order for that to happen. The move seemed baffled. One in peyton. Here's local resident. Angie if you think about it the wagner's scott they went to alaska it took off and nobody could ever seen them again ever but they came back here. They came back now. By the way did i am. I would never do that. But if i had pulled something off like that and got away with that room in which alaska new unpacking my shit and i'm hitting the woods and nobody's ever seen again. I sure the hell not gonna come back. The only way i would come back is if i thought my ass covered upon returning to peyton. The wagner's tried to fly under the radar and return to life as normal but are wagner family relative told jeff that their homecoming was anything but welcome when they came back. Where people kind of like has that story died down or people like. Oh the wagner's are back. It would probably quiet for about. I don't know two three weeks at that. And then everybody found out that they were back in town and they just absolutely tortured daily. Everybody had parted basically attacking then the community Accusing them of murdering those people if they were in town and people identified Their vehicle they would throw balls at them Angela had actually went into a store. One day on some woman had actually up behind angeles. She was coming back out of the store and through a glass key bottle after and it busted her in the back she was constantly getting it was left and right like anybody that knew them or that new. Our family like where we've lived on there was a handful of people had drove by my house and then they were throwing stuff. 'cause i live kind of right on the highway and my house is very easy to but i have no privacy. So when they i was getting trashed people were throwing their trash out In my yard in my driveway they were trying to hit while we might me and my son the you know they were just doing my work. Place My vehicle was parked outside and my vehicle got keyed. They had of course threw eggs on it. All that type stuff wrote a murderer on it. When i had absolutely nothing to do with any of that as things began to unravel for the wagner's law enforcement was tightening up the case against the family. It seemed like it was only a matter of time before they were arrested. Brushed the gators now. Believe there were multiple attackers as according to information from the ohio attorney. General's office you'll high attorney. General says investigation is progressing. Wayne adds his office knows a lot more about what goes on in those pike county hills. Now i know a lot more today. I have cracked the case. Have we come up with enough evidence to arrest someone and get them convicted. Now we have not but we made progress. Oh yeah we've made a lot of progress. On halloween of twenty eighteen authorities conducted yet another search on a wagner family property this time a farm formerly owned by jake george wagner during that raid investigators uncovered a homemade silencer at the bottom of a well. It would seem to be the final piece of the puzzle for investigators as we discussed in great detail. In episode two on november thirteenth angela and billy wagner and their two sons jake and george wagner. Were arrested for the murders of members of the royal family major developments tonight in a bizarre and tragic murder case to two and a half years but arrests have finally been made in the pike. County massacre george. Billy wagner the third. He's forty seven. Also 48-year-old angela wagner twenty-seven-year-old george wagner the fourth and twenty six year old edward jake wagner now facing charges attorney general announced two more arrests of people accused of being involved angeles mother renuka new and billy's mother fridge rica wang we're also arrested today conjunction with the cover of these cry. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. 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So sign up online advance. Your career with courses from management concepts get catalog management concepts dot com or call eight three three five seven eight hundred four sixty six angela belly jake. George wagner were charged with aggravated murder. angela wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem and billy wagner's mother frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. Six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven at first blush. It seems farfetched to believe that these two grandmothers had a and conspiring to pull off. Ohio's largest mass murder. Jeff spoke with mike allen about the charges against frederico wagner frederica has been charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. So how do you explain that to someone who like me who never been to law school or doesn't know what it means well. Perjury is pretty simple. Under ohio law it just basically says that you cannot knowingly make a false statement in an official proceeding while you are under oath. It's real simple. And the obstructing justice is pretty simple as well. Law provides that you can't With purpose hinder the discovery apprehension or prosecution of a person do anything that would assist someone in doing that. And that's one that That's pretty frequently. You don't see perjury charged a lot. Because it's so difficult to prove but convicted opposed. She would be facing for years. Max plainly stated prosecutors think frederico is lying to them and trying to hinder the investigation to cover up for her family. We'll get into the specifics of her leader for now. Here's stephanie followed by jeff. We wondered if there was anything in frederico wagner's past that could have indicated that she would be involved in something as gruesome as mass murder. As we know the wagner's were well known and well to do family in the area and frederico wagner was at the helm abyss a self-described entrepreneur she owned properties oliver pike county that spanned over seventeen hundred acres and we're valued at more than four million dollars. She also found to nonprofits lucasville mission. A church that helps underprivileged children and the crystal springs home a facility that provide services to developmentally disabled adults as we've learned throughout the series frederica had her detractors. As well as her supporters in the community growing up christina howard spent a lot of time with frederica in fact her mom worked out the crystal springs home. She was pretty well known by everybody if he wasn't doing a charity or something outside of church and she was doing more in church she over two hundred acres of land than a lot of people that lived on her property at sea ran out to sea would say hey you know if you come to church then. I won't georgia diamond rape. And all she ever asked of them was for them to go to church. She was always lies to me. Br on up. She's never yelled at me. She's never really told me. No there would be times. That i would go to work with mom and i were just paying out at friday's all day. Long woman mom was working. You know i would just hang out feed the horses in baths brush james. What early like grandma to build up paint similar portrait of fredrika. She told us about the pastoral surroundings over. Grandmother's fine w farms and her family's legacy in the area you go to their house. You go eight miles out of cincinnati east on thirty three. And i'm telling you you were in that hills the appellation ohio at this. Then all of a sudden you'll see something to the right. It looks like a real nice entry. Way splenectomy forms on and you look. We see a trailer sitting right next to the entrance and nice insurance with wrought iron gates. It's got foreign. Then you look away up. You see all these little houses. Some of them were categories. And then she's got the pig house and then she's got the old walking horse barn and she's got the shop the new come to her her colonial style home and it's very homey feeling when you walk into the home you feel like going home and i see all my grandmother's catholic little statues around in pictures of the kids on the horse theories pictures of all their famous horses. She developed a breed of horse called the georgian guerande that she named after my uncle which he takes no credit for the horses is what the driving passion was for fredericton. Boggled to be together. Stay together work together. Because that's the problem. I think with with people who get married today pay so it's natural to want have relationships it's national. They wanna have kids. When you're young all those hormones in your head to keep you together gotta have salad salad and corn that you have to work with together to keep your family meeting them legacy and that's what rica wagner. Did kit hurry. Baugh developed a breed horse over years. They have a two thousand acre farm. They had three kids and they left them legacy. We're not talking about people who are trained murders. We're talking about real people. Who had real honest to goodness god-fearing lives frederica. Wagner's attorney described her as a god fearing woman who taught sunday school for nearly half a century and lived about as close to the cross as anyone can we all struggled with this contradiction in frederico wagner. How could this sweet grandmother. Who was charitable and kind be involved in any capacity with the murder of eight people so we decided to look a little deeper into pike's most giving resident and what we found was not all virtuous. Jody barfield send after the world became familiar with the wagner family. You know of course. Reporters start digging into their backgrounds. And it's just some of the things that come out you learn about the business dealings and you know what frederica is accused of doing pass. This is good background information to have when you're trying to understand who these people are. But i have to say when. I was only granted. Pike county ohio. When i was hearing their names when i went by flag w far it is a peaceful quaint farm tucked into the rolling hills of eastern ohio. When you drive by there nothing on the surface points to anything. That's been alleged now that any of the people involved in any of this could've been involved in the killing of eight people s the beauty of action against is that you just don't know the whole story until you know the whole story. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment after all that planning it's happening. 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Geico fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percents or more. Let's start with w farms. The farm breeds horses as well. As dogs and pigs typically found in new zealand in the nineteen nineties. Frederica got into legal trouble with a group of customers surrounding the sale of these picks. Here's my gallon again. She was sued by a group of customers. I guess the allegation was that her place. I think it was the flying. W. it didn't meet the standards promise for the sale of exotic animals which is interesting I guess the group said that she defrauded them in the sales they gave them some animals. That didn't match the advertise description. Dana rodin's friend. Becky told jeff that flying w. farms had been whispered about and piked in for years. I one point time. You're fredrika was a person speak feared in the county is. There was always rumors jacket while all the rooms was everybody's like oh you don't wanna get back. Their bad things happen to people that go back here so you i wait for my area back. Where because form. I've always heard things about it. So yeah somewhere. I would never go. Piped-in local barbara told jeff about one rumor in particular day made their money in horses and miniature horses and there's some shady dealings that i've heard about their like them stuffing the horses with drugs and send them back and forth to mexico. And you know just awful things like that now. We obviously can't prove that but it's worth mentioning it's this type of thing that people in piped in like to whisper about one thing we should talk about is this quote unquote life changing rent to own operation. Frederico wagner designed to help lower income residents over the decades frederico wagner entered into at least one hundred thirty two land installment contracts and these contracts basically allowed the wagner's to retain deeds on land as buyers attempted to pay off the principal and the interest. The idea was that if the buyers made all of their payments they'd eventually become landowners but it rarely played out that way in fact as it turns out only twelve of those contracts were actually satisfied twelve out of one hundred and thirty two and looking into all of the deals nearly eighty percent of them are ultimately terminated without a corresponding di transfer and that basically indicates despite somebody making payments at the end of the day the lan stayed in frederico wagner's possession there are countless examples of sour deals. Just like that where people really did feel that frederico wagner took advantage of them and again does that mean that she was involved with a mass murder. Of course not but it does point to character which i do think is valuable. Yeah there was one tenant quoted in the story saying that frederica had raised her run by twenty five percent following the murders and twenty sixteen and another described his rental property as a one room home with an expose toilet standing just a few feet from the foot of his bed again. This doesn't prove their guilt but it does speak to the type of woman. Frederica was or at least how the public perceived her at the time. I spoke to attorney. Mike gallon about fred. Rica's land deal contracts. When i was in piped-in i spoke to some people in these are Just personal accounts but saying you know my family rented land and he ended it for years and years and years and then had it pulled out which i mean the court seems to back that up but yeah land contracts are tough and you know for the person who is you. Know not the The owner of the property but the person trying to buy it there are a lot of pitfalls with it and someone smart Which barely frederica was. They can take advantage of people in a land contract situation. Frederica also runs a nonprofit called crystal springs a group home that provides housing and rehabilitation services to developmentally disabled adults. And according to some when her son. Billy married angela. Nukem who we now know as angela wagner. Frederica wasn't happy about it christina. How're told us. The relationship between frederico wagner and her daughter-in-law always seemed contentious. She never really had much to do with angela unless they come to billy and grown up by her friday call angela. Evil woman tomor to like a nasty woman one time. Angela tried to keep friday from saint her grandkids georgia and jake because they were talking about moving away and all this and i never heard freddie say that she hated anybody but she said like oh really disliked this woman. She's just a nasty woman. Perhaps frederico wagner has reason to be suspicious of angela. Christina howard gave stephanie thoughts on angela. Wagner angela today was shady for sog tour. Like you feel like there's more to were the and stuff like on the outside. She's all happy talks with anybody and everything else but he just get a five farmer More to it turns out that the seemingly devoted hardworking mother had a bit of a checkered past in two thousand and one angela wagner along with billy wagner were charged with improperly handling a firearm and in two thousand twelve they are both charged with receiving stolen property which is a fifth degree felony. Jody becker put the wagner families. Criminal history into context for us. You're looking at improperly handling a firearm charges when you look at those two charges in even the details that were reported to support there's charges. I'm back to where. I was in the rest of the wagons background when you look at this as a whole across the course of their lives the charges of improperly handling a firearm. I mean there's charges came fifteen years before these murders. It was alleged road rage. You know there was a gun pulled out but the charges are dismissed. No one got hurt. I mean that is something that i see multiple times a week. A leisure police reports the charge of receiving stolen property came four years before these murders. When you look at the criminal record. Nothing in this says to me. You've got murderers in the hills of pike county ohio. This could be your neighbor next door with these charges here again is frederica sneezed array reading a news article about her aunt's involvement in the road and murders. So but let me summarize it for you on november thirteenth. Two thousand and eight. In the ohio governor elect my d- wine held and internationally broadcast news conference and announced the arrest of for rica wagner and several of her family members. Governor dewine accused frederick. His family members of the rodents homesites and he specifically accused rica masterminding the cover rock. When i heard that i wanted to call him up and tell him that there was no way and that someday you will have to apologize to my aunt. I do not know who came up with that theory and tried to put it out there. That is someone with an evil mind. I think that that it's that that it's the devil tran- trying to test us because there's no way possible that fredrika could something like ever. She is not that kind of person. She carries the light of jesus with her everywhere she goes. And i am i am. I am convicted on that. There's no way she would have ever done something like that. Ever the idea that the entire wagner family allegedly conspired to kill the rodin's cold blood still baffles. Jody bar to this day nothing. That is the common theme of this entire story about pike county about this road. Massacre is missing. Just too far fetched. Now when you try to connect the dots to the histories of how. The wagner's conducted their business. How they live their lives. I don't know that. I have seen any reporting any fact brought out about the wagner's that would say yep there you go mass murderers i think that is the draw that continues to to keep people interested in. This story is that you would have never seen any of this comics. I don't know what a fairly capable of a mass murderer would look like or how they would conduct your business but this was out of nowhere still just hard to believe. On june twenty six twenty nineteen frederico wagner headed into pike county courtroom for a pre trial hearing with frederica sitting in the defendant's chair. There was a stunning courtroom revelation. Charges against the grandfather connected to the road and family massacre have been dismissed. It was just missed because i was innocent. They had no evidence against me while grammar. the frederico might be out of the woods. The rest of her family await their day in court where he stunning number of truths promised to be exposed. Its search for the crude. I believe that is it applies to this case. The mystery will be solved. The truth all eventually be discovered ano- struggling to keep custody of suburbia. A straight up told her essay present. You with papers did not sign them because they you've got to wonder who is this appointment because if it's a member of the wagner family. I think that's a twist. No one saw common more on that next week. Reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions where instagram facebook and twitter at piped-in massacre. We look forward to answering your questions in upcoming bonus episodes pectin massacres executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker. The pike massacre is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. 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wagner alaska jake wagner frederico wagner Mike dewine ohio george wagner frederica jeff jody bar The cincinnati enquirer angela wagner Angela Dana rodin billy wagner Lost hills katy studios courtney armstrong
Episode 8- A Pike County Roundtable

The Piketon Massacre

34:12 min | 3 months ago

Episode 8- A Pike County Roundtable

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Find a specialist today at children's national dot org slash stronger. Welcome to the patron massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios season. Two episode. eight expert. Roundtable i'm courtney armstrong television producer at kt studios with stephanie. Lie decker and jeff. Shane on june twenty first twenty twenty one accused brother george wagner the fourth appeared in court for a pretrial hearing and the road and murder case assist. Long defense pretrial motions. It was the first full hearings take place in stores younger brother. Jake wagner pled guilty to killing five of the eight slain members of the rodent family and twenty sixteen and it was jake's plea and what he potentially told authorities that became the defenses primary focus during these proceedings. I think we need more than sixty days to investigate. Whatever we learn. Jake's prophet because we've been provided that even though it's been available to all we have not received that we are entitled to that under sixteen and once we get it. I understand. it's more than ten hours of record statement but once we get that we'd inadequate amount of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate and we'll certainly comply with our every out. The state agree to work towards providing. George wagner's attorneys with jake's confession the court also scheduled georgia's next motion hearing to take place on september thirteenth but before court was dismissed judge randy during provided one critical piece of information. George moving forward we lose case for four with accused brother. George wagner said to begin trial on april fourth. Twenty twenty two. There will surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But just a few days before. George wagner's most recent hearing we got some of our regular contributors together for discussion reporters and jennifer levy and jodi bar and criminal forensic expert joseph morgan. We covered a range of topics that span their years covering the road and murder case. We started out with a talk about some of the details. They had heard leading up to george wagner's trial last week and what they expected the outcome to be engineered. Levi's started us off some documents filed by george. The fourths lawyers saying they still haven't received jake statements to law enforcement and they were led to believe that jake's interviews were between ten and eighteen hours so they subpoenaed great myers. Who is the lead counsel for jake and they filed a motion demanding that the additional discovery including jake's interviews be turned over so we don't know you know veracity of his statements or how truthful they are other than he allegedly led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used so i mean he did quite a bit of talking jody. How rare is it for. One attorneys is the peanut another attorney. I don't recall a specific instance of that. But i mean that that is a clear indication that one side does not feel that they are getting the information. They need to defend their clients. So i think it's of worth a deeper look at. Why either the state or jake's own attorneys or are not playing ball here. That's been a complaint. The entire time that defense attorneys have complained consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as they would like and you would think they would just make a copy and send it over. And this one i would venture a guess that it was at least audio recorded. Perhaps if not video recorded the statement that jay gave so they need to produce this. I don't know how these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial when the there's this huge evidence dumped from jake wagner's mouth at apparently they don't have access to right now. You've got one of the four. Saying i did it. I did it and What did he do exactly. I didn't hear it in court. You know maybe he. He told that story in the statements but ten to eighteen hours. A heck of a long time to have a conversation. Cover a lot of ground in that time so at a quote normal. Pretrial what happens. What's the broad strokes. They usually ask the defendant if they're happy with their lawyer and they're meeting with their boyer enough and they discussed the pace of discovery. And what have you. But i feel like in this case. Nothing ever happens. I mean they go into chambers for an hour and they come out and put something on the record because these are death penalty cases now. They're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that off the table. If jake testifies against everyone they typically are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some of the motions hearings. But i haven't you know these pretrial tend to be pretty dry. Yeah i thought that too until. What was that april. The twenty first of this year the night before jake wagner pled guilty. I was told by some family members that we see. I reached out and said you want to be at the courthouse tomorrow. Pike county and then that was just dock as a pretrial hearing and there was no indication that jack wagner will be pleading guilty other than the state calling the family is suggesting they be there so that actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So man i think if you get a call from the family anyone of these pre-trials it just seemed like a routine. Where are we in this prosecution. Does everybody have what they need. So we can try this thing man. I think you gotta be careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. I mean jake was. I think a complete surprised everybody even the family or your thoughts on that day. Just of none of us were expecting this. You remember. We were all texting between one. Another one the hell off because the same drop like thunder are the heavens and we never saw it coming. I didn't certain had no idea that this was about to happen. So you could knock me over with a feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he could come. In and plea. I don't think he's going to plead guilty if he if he was going to plead guilty. I don't think as lawyer be like filing a demand for discovery in a trial date so just my opinion but i now probably get out there and something crazy will happen the pike to massacre. You never know where this is going next coming this story. Who did you guys. I didn't i thought it could have been related to the pot. You know the marijuana growing operation. But i had been told early on by some law enforcement. Sources federal law enforcement sources that the cartel thing wasn't true because they ran that down because of the level of violence that was involved in it and it didn't seem like messaging so much to me as you would see with an organized crime hit. There's generally something net will be left. That is substantial. You know the elements that we've talked about quite a bit relative to overkill in cases obscene and then you know displayed before us. It seemed very intimate to me very very intimate and cartels loved their money. But they're not intimate with intimacy comes that level of familiarity and the fact that in tight little space you know and it is a tight little space when you travel down that road you have these locations where all these people inhabited this. These very specific pinpoint locations and there's other structures and other families around that area. They knew where they were going. There were no mistakes many times if somebody's not familiar with area and they're going to go out and kill somebody. You'll have mistakes. Along the way that they had pinpointed. Four separate locations and that again goes back. I think there's connective de with that. Seed of intimacy. The whole thing about the dogs not barking. Because they said those dogs would have. That was very strange. We knew there was a baby. We knew there was a child. You know we knew about the little girl. And we knew about the wagner's but i didn't hear the wagner name and any association with the murders or suspected association until may of twenty seventeen and then jodi was that your experience as well. I got over there heavily in june july right after the murders and made people you talk with. Even the family members had already. And i don't know what the reasons were but had already suspected something to do with the wagner's i mean they had already floated farm out as being the base of operations for this family. There was also a drug case in adams county. Which is just right. Next door to pike that the rumor mill believed could have been linked to the wagner's the wagner forum. Or at. Least you know what happened over as far as drug angle that ended up not being connected in the end or as far as we know it's not connected but you know we went as far as you know covering a court hearing over there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs on them so anyway there was a lot swirling around but the wagner name. We heard early on that. Some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know back. Dan is like how do you even. Where do you start on something like that. I went out past that the flying w. farm. You try to dig it in the property records background these people and i off there wasn't a lot to background. What these folks and secondly it's just you know what you did find didn't scream mass murderers i. I didn't see anything there. That would cause me to continue digging. It was nothing that i found at least in looking into the wagner family then went okay there. It is smoking gun. The rumors are true. It's just collected it as information you try to vet it you get nowhere you just move on and then it yeah. I'm curious your perspective. On certain to develop an idea of them. I started looking into them. And you know when you see that. Jake and george and the house and the mom lived there with them. I was kind of like. Oh that's weird. And then i remember being out there in hearing a little bit about you know how they lived in learning more about george's wife now ex wife. It all started kind of sound very interesting so I remember specifically going up to the flying w. and you go up there and it's like this steep would say it's like a sixty or seventy degree kind of like driveway gravel driveway in driving up there and being basically told to get off the property just seeing if they wanted to comment so it was a little creepy a little scary as a beautiful property. Don't get me wrong but when your cellphone doesn't work and you're driving up somewhere to go. Try to talk to somebody and somebody you know basically comes out and tells you to out of there. They felt a little weird you know. Obviously it wasn't very welcoming. I started digging around on facebook quite a bit too and it didn't seem like on the surface that you would suspect anything. You know the mom. Angela was running some type of little organic farm. Type thing at that peterson road house. You know she was trying to breed animals and sell them and she had pictures of the children on their on facebook. So you know at first. It didn't seem weird. But then i contacted her and said look. I'd love to do an interview with you. And then some of the things angela wagner said to me on facebook messenger kind of made me feel a little uncomfortable the way she was trying to dictate what i said what i would be reporting about our conversations on facebook messenger. She said you know. You are not to report any of this. What i said you know. I do not give you permission to report anything. I just told you. She said that. She was being slandered. She and her family. Do you think jake is lying about being personally responsible for five of the eight. I don't know what is incentive to lie about that is not that afraid of the death penalty the economics of that equation. Just does not make sense to me where he would openly confessed to murdering five people. Probably the worst act you could commit as a human is taking the life of another and he did that five times over. I think we got a good idea of what happened here. Jaguar told his story in court and he took the guilty plea and said he did it. Five of the you know i. I think that's the best shot we've had so far at some confirmation of repealing the story back in the world to know what happened when they woke up that morning. Put this plan in place. Who went where did what as i think. All of us have done since april two thousand. Sixteen when this happened. Is you roll. Around these scenarios in your mind trying to figure out first off what's the mindset of someone to pull this off and then to just run free for what two years afterward and you live with this every day of your life it may have been passion driven and it was certainly anger driven. But it wasn't like somebody just suddenly flew off the handle and decided to go and visit hell down upon roads. This is something that took planning in my estimation at least so in began thinking this confederacy. What do you think about when you're moving from some place like the last house. Itchy hit with multiple pink linen drive out kim's house at some distance away you know. What is that conversation of. You talked about what music you're gonna listen to radio talk about. Who's going to handle what. I don't know ultra jake said. He killed five. Oh but i can't imagine to jody's point wine a world. That man would say that he killed five people in an open court. He didn't do it so that leaves us with the other three. Who do this and do it in the presence of these babies and just leave them. And i can only imagine having wallet around about net blood. I don't know it. It leaves me dumbfounded. That's harder hannah gilly. She was attacked on only second to her throat and she was shot this woman five times in the face which is an unbelievable overkill. So the thought is a y. And then also is it possible. Be a connection or rage. Because her brother charlie gilly is the father of hannah. Rodents new baby. That would be my suspicion. But i i really don't know for sure i mean i. I would be speculating because of that connection. There's a whole lot more going on hanna. Julie shot five times in the face. You looking anger well. Is that a message. Being sent one shot is a message. You know five. I don't know what you're doing at that point. J wagner least set out with a plan that night to do what he did to five of the eight you know who killed the other three. I just i just hope we all get these answers now. This brings us to the point. I'm gonna reflect back to an old old case real quick that many people will be aware of an absolutely horrendous in its dennis rader with btk killing and kansas. He stood up and he said. I will in fact admit to everything i've done. Since nineteen seventy three or seventy four winter winter. Was he started this horrific murder scrape his serial killings. They put this one caveat in there. They said okay. That's fine we'll take death off the table and you have to stand in court and you have standing delivered this moment. Tom and he was compelled to what is framed as an allocution. He had to stand there. And it's one of the most chilling things you've ever seen because this guy is a psychopath and so when you listen to him. Give the details behind these horrific crimes. He participated in. It really. makes you wonder if you want this thing that people talk about they frame is closure causes horror show but in this particular case it. This is the route you're going to go. I think that these individuals should be compelled to aliquo listening but these babies that are left behind. These children don't think they're going to explanation at some point. I mean yeah no the community does but what about. These kids was just assume that they do get convictions on all frontier. What are you push them off into deep dark hole never to be heard from again and we'll never hear anything else about this and people keep talking about well. We'll never hear the story will never because deal was cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators if if it is them and they are so convicted. They were never compelled to say okay. This is what happened. This is how the planning took place and this is what we did that night. And those questions will always exist and on a a abroad or no. You're always gonna. Have you know people sitting in their basement with tinfoil hats on saying well. It wasn't now You know they'll be crazy conspiracy theories that will created for years and years to come but what actually happened that nine. We're going to take a quick break. Here will be back in a moment. Shell brothers is now building new homes and ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover shaw brothers unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring everything shell brothers has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment. Only remember the saying if you love something set it free. If it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with well when it comes to identity the folks lifelock totally disagree. All those nights working overtime saving up all that money paying off all that debt and now some identity thief wants to try and set it free. They say that's crazy talk and we agree. That's why lifelock by norton helps monitor your info and alert you to potential identity threats. And if you do become a victim dedicated. Us based specialists will be there to help fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses but when identity thieves. Try to take what she wears. You don't have to take it lying down. Save up to twenty five percent off your first year by going to lifelock dot com slash picton. That's lifelock dot com slash biden for twenty five percent off. But you're siri on the mastermind. Is i don't want to indict anybody. Obviously but we have jake wagner confessing an implicating all of his family members in this at least billy angela. And his older brother george the fourth angela. Few really kind of watched these hearings very closely. She was apparently on jail calls. She was calling her mother against the judge's orders and telling renew come. You don't have to testify against us. People who are completely innocent. They don't call their mothers and say you don't have to testify against us and her mother came out in court and said she asked me to lie about notarized. The documents the custody documents the forged custody documents that have been discussed in this case it was stated the they were declaration documents and it was stated in read. A new comes case because she was the one accused of charged with forgery or obstruction. It said that it was declarations for the children of hannah. Roden george the fourth and jake and so basically these documents designated a guardian should any of them die in these documents. Had been signed and notarized nineteen days before the murders at designated the children go to angela. Should any of them die. Let's just one of those puzzle pieces that i felt like showed that angela. She may have been the driving force here since she was the one that had the facebook message. That's been referenced in court. That showed that. Hannah said they'd have to kill me first before i gave up my child and she showed that message to jag. Angie kappa said that in court. When jake pleaded guilty the next thing i wanted to talk about was alaska when they all have been moved to. Your point together. Sold all of their stuff. I went through. This doesn't look good on paper. It looks like what you would suspect someone involved in a crime like this would do is to go to the other side of the world so i mean that was just my initial impression of it but to end up thinking everything. You own. Up and burrowing in multiple trailers in moving to alaska. That's not like moving just out of state. That's that's a long way to go and then to come right back. I would love to know more about the reasons behind that. Did they feel the heat at that point in time where they really trying to get away. I think what i'm so interested in. Is jake's wife who we don't know all that much about but obviously he goes to. Alaska meets a woman and then ends up marrying her. This other woman. I mean what were those conversations. Like i mean i would love to be able to sit down and talk with her now about you know. She watched that video. Feed of jake pleading guilty to these murders. I mean if he hid that from her to you know it's like a whole 'nother level. Another layer on this sadistic twisted personality turned out to be. Elizabeth then came back to pike county with the family and then she went to the police claiming threats harassment and potential identity. Ray it's been very frustrating because that case is now years old and they won't release anymore records about it or any more of the report than just the first page which basically says a name and you know a complaint lodged doesn't say anything else. I talked to a lawyer about it. Awhile back who did not think it would be successful to pursue obtaining that it still listed as an open case even though it's been many years this of course all speculation on my part but because to elizabeth filed those harassment charges. Because she was living with jake and his family. And alaska came back to piped-in it seems like a possibility. She could be the informant. Who do you think the informant or informants are. I think jay wagner's wife. We have edited to find her so many times so many ways and roadblock after roadblock just we haven't been able to speak with her well i kind of suspected for a while now that it was it was her and then what i thought was interesting in this was said in court someone or more than prison referred to the informant as she right ryan scheider said she during his testimony last august so that was the final thing to lead me to believe it was her but it could be could be wrong. Could be a curve ball out of nowhere though. What if it's grandmothers. I know that's hard to believe. I don't know how impossible it is about the grandmothers. A obviously they're also tighten it. And i do think it's interesting. Frederica has not said one word knowledge. Probably since jake has made his confession but even with no come. I can't imagine the pressure. She was under when she had to talk about. You know my daughter said she did have something to say and they were pressing her for time again. That's why you know it's like there's so much left unknown with this one day down the road we could rip this case file opening when it's all said and done and it's more of the truth here and tonight and jody. I know you live pretty local types than have been there joseph. Can you tell us what you recent first trip was like. It's not unlike a lot of appalachian towns and communities it's You can tell you know church just about every corner and the people are found. Were very warm. They didn't put it in the vernacular they can give us the side. I when we got there you know they were very friendly and welcoming by even now live in southern appalachia. So i wasn't too far removed from my home from that location but when i got there from the perspective of a forensics guy and a debt investigator everything has got to be contextualised for the environment which it occurs. You know these these horrible events and horrible events occur everywhere no one is immune to but you know for me going to heighten and kind of seeing that you kinda get a feel for the rats that people would run and that there there are a limited number of points of egress. I think to get from point. Eight point be. It's not like you got multiple surface roads where you can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially there's one way in one way out. This is not a location. Where if you pull in your average joe and just slapped him down. They're gonna know where to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever ran these routes in rando route knew the area because several locations along union hill. Where essentially only one car can pass it atop in certain locations of predictably dependent upon the vehicle. And one other note. If there's someone that is not of their of that place you will be noticed you will be noticed. People will take notice of your presence there because it is not heavily populated sparse and so to move through that space. You have to know where all the twists and turns are. You'd have to know what to avoid what point of view. It's no one might have a location. All of these things are going to play into any kind of scenario that you're constructing your mind where you're thinking. How can i go about getting away with slaughter. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment like most people. I barely have time to get everything done. Let alone make a healthy indecent dinner for my family every night. 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Today that's friends without the our best fiends So if the four wagner's committed this crime together who was watching. Jake and hannah rodin's daughter. Was she in the car which is unimaginable. Or was she home. I mean that's a special kinda crazy if you're gonna take children along to kill people and just have them in their car seats so i can't imagine anyone would do such a thing so i would think somebody had to have been with those children. Hopefully we'll get that question answered. I mean in the end. Does it really matter now. It's been alleged many times that each one of them had a role in this. I mean we've kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah because to your question of does it. Matter i mean in my mind would certainly is if someone outside the four is because then that person has been living with this secret knowledge. That is hard to imagine bearing. It's not like you just dial up a baby sitter and say hey. Can you come by. Watch my kids for the night i mean. Can you imagine or my grandkids. I mean you would think they would have spoken to that person already if there was a fifth person and watching the children or something like that then he kinda closing bites engine and thoughts at this moment. Yeah i mean i. I would love to see what jake told the. Investigators what was behind this. Was it just the child. And why and i know why jake jake confessed. He found god. That's what i. That's what i heard so don't be all the you know. If you've ever covered a bond hearing you think some kind of find god. I think some find god and i guess he. He really found him how. 'bout that it will be interesting to see if it was more than just the child because to wipe out eight people for a child is you know that's it. That's a whole different type of thing that i'm you know you hear about domestic violence incidents over children and divorces going ugly and a spouse kills another spouse over control but to kill an entire family. Because you want one child is. It is hard to wrap your head around. Fat is indeed. All this was about so right now all we know is what j. wagner did so i think we can all speak with with certainty that he had a major role in this. But you're you're looking at trying to make sense of this. It's the custody issue but then on top of that. It does luke hannah gilly to some extent because her brother apparently he got this. Hannah rodent pregnant. You know. it's not just hannah in this child. It's hannah her mother her father. You know all centered around this baby. Everyone who could get custody of this baby you. That may be driving him at that point but then you now have. Hannah guilt looped in through her brother in that tied to hanna road. And i don't. Is that enough. I mean what if it comes out that and i know we all. We've all heard the theory from from the state at this point in time to this was a concerted effort by four members of the wagner family. But what if it comes out that you know jake was truly the trigger guy and the rest are are. On the periphery helping and supporting you know again. I mean this is just me shooting the breeze here about this but you know it's just you try to put yourself in that mindset of doing what we know jake did at this point in time and the result of whoever's actions you still got eight people dead children laying in the blood and the aftermath of that so the hell of a situation over there will continue to monitor movements and george wagons trial as well as any developments regarding accused father billy wagner and accused mother angela wagner but while we wait we want to turn our attention back to the michael moran story that we covered an episode seven. I really thought there was no way. There was no way this could be going on for so long. Nobody did anything about it. One of the best lawyers a politician and a sitting judge all possibly involved in this network. That's how deep this win. And that's when we knew we needed to get more women who had been through this experience to talk about what they said they'd been through with michael. We'll have part two of that next week. For more information on the case and relevant photos follow us on instagram at kt underscore studios the piped-in massacre returns. Pike county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew better and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and katie studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows shell brothers is now building new homes in ten unique communities across tax friendly coastal delaware with twelve models available to virtually tour you can discover others unique curb appeal and sensational floor plans from the comfort of your own home. Spring is the perfect time to start planning your dream home to start exploring show others has to offer visit us today at shaw brothers dot com models currently open by appointment only. Do you wonder where your food comes from. More and more people to america's corn farmers work hard every day to grow a crop that you can be proud to serve your family. And they're doing it with an eye toward sustainability caring for water air soil and resources that fuel healthy families and more sustainable products. Take a look to find out how farmers in rural america worked to make life better for all of us from cities to their rural communities. Learn more at insead g. dot com in. 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jake george wagner jake wagner wagner katie studios children's national hospital courtney armstrong kt studios Jake wagner judge randy jennifer levy jodi bar joseph morgan facebook george jody murders or suspected associati Jake angela wagner
Episode 2- Cinnamon and Hay

The Piketon Massacre

44:56 min | 4 months ago

Episode 2- Cinnamon and Hay

"To show you how easy it is to file a claim with geico. We hired a soap opera star. Gracious me my car has storm damage. And i had to file. A claim couldn't possibly get worse when my claims team leave me for someone else. Someone less intense. No actually when you file a claim with geico you get your own dedicated claims team. Who promises to stay with you throughout the process. I've never known such loyalty. I can't wait for the second season. Geigo great service without all the drama. Dr larry enters. I'm a psychology professor at yale. And i started to notice that a lot of my students weren't happy so i created a new class. Well if i'm everybody to psychology and the good life but it's not just my student who need to understand the science being and that's why we launched the happens lab so you can learn about it too. Are you ready to feel happier head to the i. Heart radio app apple podcasts. Or if you like to listen brought to you by discover- discover something writer. Welcome to the pike and massacre production of i heart radio and katie studios. Who brown in such a sweetheart. Every bank her he originally pleaded not guilty to the murder of eight. Rhone family members say that he was guilty him. It just gives you the complete personally. Killing five of the eight and to trying to burn and get rid of evidence will now avoid the death penalty and the rest of his life in prison from making that outrageously mad he to killed to ocean or tonight just answering to the jones here live control. All the special prosecutor said the laggers were a cult like family. I think it was still angeles behind the scenes control of everything went a little puppet master. This is the piketty massacre return to pike county season. Two episode to cinnamon and hey. I'm courtney armstrong television producer at katy studios with stephanie lydecker. And jeff. shane unable twenty-second twenty-one jig pleaded guilty to twenty three counts including eight aggravated murder charges in the road and murder case. The motive behind the killings back in two thousand sixteen according to prosecutors was a custody dispute between jake and victim. Hannah may roden over their young daughter as it stands the other three wagner's accused in the murderers jake's father billy mother angela and brother george have all pled not guilty. The day that jake appeared in court for his plea deal we caught up with christina. Howard her sister tabby had a relationship with the accused eldest son george wagner the two were married and had a son together but eventually divorced when you found out for a fact that jake was guilty. What was your reaction. My reaction was like wow and away speechless because me and him were friends. When we're ghandour new. Never really think about somebody who is or once was a friend being able to take seventy live like that. Won't last season christina told us a little bit about a custody dispute that ensued between tabby and george wagner couple split up it piqued our interest when we heard about it since it foreshadowed what was to come for hannah. Roden christina was a little hesitant to divulge too much last time we spoke but in light objects plea she chose to delve into tabby story a little more and what we found is far darker and much more disturbing than we could have ever imagined. What follows christina's recollection of the events christina's relationship with the wagner. Family goes back to her childhood. Her mother began working for grandmother of the accused. Frederico wagner whom christina affectionately refers to as freddy when she was a kid and she was like a grandmother in a way out good work with my mother and i would hang around freddie a lot and featuring my family pretty kindly on holidays she would always get me and my sisters person then have christmas dinner than easter dinner and it was like you know the part of her family. It was pretty nice eventually christina and her sister tabby mit frederica grandsons george and jake wagner christina jeff george and tabby hit it off and soon became a couple. They got together when they were young teens. I think my sister was like thirteen fourteen. You know and they ended up liking each other. You think the georgia's bad news was a little bit of a troublemaker. Christina tag along when tabby went to visit george at the wagner's home. They had like this little like house up on the hill and they have like their own. Little pond. affair was pretty isolated. They had a privacy gate bottom that in order to get in somebody up at the top of the house would have to come down and unlock it. Me george jake and taibbi. We would like go outside and you know these young teenager kid type stuff and play pat Jump on the plane and the tree house and all that it was really fun and we could be rowdy and noisy as we wanted because they didn't have no neighbor whatsoever while jordan tabby hanging out christina's struck up a friendship with jake wagner. Jake was actually a really nice kid mayhem okada friends. Here's pretty cool He was really nice. Kinda shy. Who played video games all that. Good stuff as a kid. Jake struck christina as kind and almost unusually empathetic. I remember in greek bedroom. You know he had his own little. Tv and a video game with them and all that stuff and he had this one duck and it was like hanging on the wall or something and it kinda gave me the creeps whenever a little kid and he was poisoned enough to take off his wall and hide it in a closet or something because that game or the creep. The more time christina spent at the home the more familiar should became with the boy's mother accused murderer angela wagner. She sometimes referred to as angie christina told stephanie that on the surface everything about angela wagner seemed to personify the typical all american mom front would like this my little walkway flowers and the white picket fence except in the country. Kinda deal and then like you go and find the house or the kitchen and then the kitchen and the living room and it's pretty big. They got this huge sectional and an i big. Tv house smells like it. Kinda smells like cinnamon mixed. Hey i dunno. She couldn't really imagine that but like takes the may around everywhere sentiment in it. And that's what my wife angela. Make us some snacks or from launch. Or whatever i think even like maybe twice. She made us. Dinner was pretty good. She sounds a homemaker which is again. What makes it so shocking. To imagine that she had the ability to do something so her thick but the more time christina spent at the wagner home the relationship between the wagner boys and their mother came into focus they were always around their mom no matter what their mom wet always is. They wanted to play outside longer. If angie said no it was no and they wanna play video games longer and said no it was no even if like they leader so better she put her foot down main and like you better listen to me. I'm gonna book your but and they're just like all right mama it matter. What energy said of what went as the kids got older angela wagner seems take more control over her boys lives especially. Jake riyadh a job somewhere and his mom actually made him quit the job because she said that the job wasn't good enough for him. Meaning angela wagner jake. Wagner's mom said this jobs over. It's not good enough real. Yeah it's like you know your mom controls your whole entire live. And it wasn't long before. Angela turned her controlling ways towards christina's family. Angie may george break-up or tabby. Because angie like my sister because you know george and jake were mama's boys and ain't nothing in the world and be able to still her boys from her she was just so control wearing seen angela. Wagner's true colors began to shine through her all american facade and some photos that i've seen a vanja she looks smiley and she's pretty and just looks like an all american mom but then in other pictures like her mugshot for example she sort of grimacing and has a scary vibe what was she like imprison and parson see was the tide. You know Saw about everyday stuff like how you doing. How's your family and everything else like that. But it felt like whenever she would talk to you. It felt like an act. She was putting on like you know she was working down on. Your kind of thing is at least. That's what i always picked up. See things like putting on math Make people think that she's all right or whatever. But i never really did liker. She's a boop me. After the wagner family was arrested twenty eighteen. The families unusual dynamic became a key building block and the state's case against angela. Billy jake and george wagner on august thirty first of last year george wagner appeared in court for a pretrial hearing special agent ryan scheider of the ohio bureau of criminal investigation testified that day. He provided details of what authorities had uncovered about the wagner's over two years of investigating. Here's prosecutor angie kanada questioning agent. Scheider how would you describe the wagner family. The widener family from what we found through the investigation as well as their own admittances very close. When i say close they lived together. They've always lived together. There's not been a period in time. Where george wagner has not live with his brother or his mother but their finances are intermingled. They worked together. They always worked together. They home school together. They raise their kids together. Everything is done together. cell from birth. Dating were arrested together. Yes do you have an opinion as to whether or not one of them might strike out and go commit some time out the others. Knowing about four participating we have an informant who says every decision within that family is made as a family decision years after angelo wagner for storage wagner and abby howitt's relationship to end the couple of rekindled their romance soon after victim. Hannah may rodents started going out with jake wagner and the rodents wagner's and how words became very close. Hannah's brother of victim. Frankie roden even joined the fray and And hobby were best friends. Hannah jake were together. And tabby and george would have gathered and frankie would hang out with them a lot because they were like best friends. Frankie i suppose so they were always wipe going out hunting and fishing and stuff then one day tabby came to her family with some surprising news. She george wagner. We're getting married. We didn't know anything about it until shortly before it so hair. Aaron salt lake is like wow. That's crazy instead of excitement. Christina felt something much different based on her time spent around the family and accused mother. Angela wagner in particular. They're just didn't feel right to me. And i thought i think my mind about it. I told her i said listen. You don't wanna marry him. And she said worldwide on. I said because his mom is very controlling. I said you want to wait a few years and see how things go before you jump in again married them and stuff and she said well. You're just Full love you don't know what you're talking about. We love each other. And everything. And angie just trying to look out for me. So that par. I feel like and the you know. Like kinda turned her against her family. A bit more of like a. I don't need you. And i'm going to spend my time with my family. I get more her to get married. Because of the way i felt but i felt like it wasn't my place to intervene. If she's happy letter. Be so figure it out on july first twenty twelve all three families gathered for tabby howard and george wagner's wedding knows a normal pretty wedding. It was kinda country. 'cause you know tabby see how they Camouflage dress and george. He had a cameo tugs. Everybody's camouflage crazy around here. They love hanging up. Somebody wants her. Favorite color is and they're like oh it's camouflaged. And two of my sisters and hannah or her bridesmaids the bridesmaids we war black dresses and jay was georgia's best man. Obviously the wagons were. There was friday and angela. And billy than some of the other rodents were there and i was walking down the aisle with frankie smash cake. I guess you'd call it where you smashing faces good wedding. We talked last episode about the photo of the rodents and wagner's from tabby georgia's wedding and we can't stop looking at it because it's just so chilling the happiness in everyone's face is palpable but christina now seen details in pictures she never saw before and my mind i feel like the people in the pitcher should be sorted out there for you know like in this placement as like tabby and george is set off to the side because even though they're getting married they're not like the main attraction and angie is blog top center where white dress like lacking in their faith by hogs all beneath me. Yeah i was gonna ask you because people have different views but some people think you don't wear white anyone else's wedding why would underwear white to another person's wedding. I mean you're supposed to do that. Because that is like supposed to be like bad juju on the married couples like saying that. I have bigger wedding on. Why long contemplating. It's clear. That george wagner and tabby howard's wedding marked an inflection point in the lives of all three families. After that day nothing would ever be the same shortly after the wedding. We stopped here in from her. The last thing that we heard from tabby was that she was pregnant with my nephew and she was giving birth him and that was it. We didn't get no pictures of him. We didn't hear anything from tabby. Nothing from angela. Or george or antibody. They just like straight up appeared. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. 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Make the most of your flexible spending account take the guesswork out of your ffa shop now at ffa store dot com and use the promo code flex or fifteen dollars off orders over one hundred fifty. That's ffa store dot com promo code flex. Nobody knew where they were knew what they were doing or anything and it will like that for a couple of years. Everybody was so concerned about my sister. Because we're like you know. We literally have not heard thang from her. Then one night tabby suddenly resurfaced like a random call in the middle of the line from gas station from a number. we didn't and she's calling us telling us hey. Can you come get me. I'm here at this gas station. And you know we're forgetting out what's going on. We ain't heard nothing from the nfl years. she said. I don't really have time to explain. Can come get me And all that so. We packed up in a car. It was me my mom and dad to go get my sister and then we get there and she's bawling her eyes out. She wrote there in the middle of the night Raining cats and dogs outside. She's all wet and cold. She wrote bear on a bike and the police showed up and put my sister in a car in the cop car aston or what was going on and everything and apparently her george got into fi. angie called cops owners said that she was beating georgeanne. Anyone not by four and everything else and Charges stabbing what scissors and all this than tabby said that. That wasn't how it happened. She said she was know. I guess you got into a fight. With george. And angie after george what why let her go and get his hands off ever have any Mark zoning to prove tabby had beaten him tabby didn't have any marks on her to prove that he was putting his hands on her so nobody got arrested. Just copy just got questioned and all that and then you know. She comes home with Yeah we're sitting there trying to catch up on everything with tabby howard told her family. That night was deeply disturbing. Here's christina recollection of her sister's story according to tabby angie wouldn't let her like have fell. Man she always said that tabby was crazy and she was telling us all about how she was control. Laying tabby said that she wasn't allowed to Do anything with her kid. And angie always said no. You're not you're crazy. You're an unfit mother. She said that she would all time. George about what's going on and everything and george was like. Oh it's okay. You're just being dramatic. Mom would do that to. And it's all for your own good blah blah blah. We're just looking out for you. But why would they do that. What would they have to gain from. you know. sitting there chemo. Line sister is basically a prisoner and sitting there like mentally abusing our everything else. What what would they have the game from other than you know. When i ask you. Christina story about tabbies escaped from the wagner household may sound outrageous however it was convincing enough for agent. Scheider to testify about it in court during george wagner's hearing last year. Was george remarried. Yes he married tabitha and did he stole them in the family at the time during the time he was merely taboo topic. Delivered with your okay. Are you aware of what happened. The ended that relationship. Yes she fled. the relationship. There was an incident on one particular day on her and george had gotten into an argument. Sider included a few frightening details. That christina hadn't told us eventually there was a comment by angelo that she was going gonna kill tabitha so she fled to a gas station and ultimately never returned actually specifically she. I hit on the property until nightfall biden and drove to a gas station meter escape that way and never went back to the soon. After tabby howard fled the wagner's household. The family became too much for victim. Hannah may roden to bear as well. Hanner i guess. She told my sister that that was really courageous. Ever she's proud of her. She was saying that she was tired of it. Tired of always being controlled and told what to do and everything so a hand. I decided that she was going to leave to it. Seems that hannah may roden left. Jaguar do the same reasons. Tabby howard left george. Some of these details were illuminated at that same hearing for george wagner last year. Here's prosecutor angie connect questioning agent ryan scheider about some messages anime had written. They were two other rodent family members and whereabout jake their break-up and her relationship with new boyfriend charlie. Were you aware why he made last Domestic violence issues between shake salty. Her and you observe specific communications about that. Yes she made it aware. She made people aware of did she also make comments out the wagner family as a whole being controlling. Yes after she had left jake she started seeing another individual. In ultimately conceived a second child with dot in the digital correct. Yes and that was surely dealing in. Are you aware as to whether or not told jake that she was pregnant and she also told him who the father of the child she. She told jake as well as angela that she was pregnant. And charlies gillies child okay during that time after she was penetrated dealings child In the months leading up to homicides did she make it clear to jay that they were not getting back together very clear and has he asked her to engage in dialogue with an attorney in order to try to work out custody between them. Yes he made attempts to get yours and she interested in doing that. By the time. Hannah may road and left tabby howard was in the middle of her own custody battle with jake's brother george wagner while we don't know all the details of george wagner and tabbies custody case there is evidence to support christina's account of it was a preview of. What would come to bear for hanna. May in the following months sister was gonna do joint custody My mom tried to help a sister go through core and all that with all that. You're trying to help her. And my sister tom my mom she said no. It's okay ngo help me out with it. And why she just. Angie with the is beyond me and why she's still wanted to trust her was core auto now head but somehow she got tabby the sign. Some paperwork saying that george would Get full custody of my nephew aired that tab would only get visitation rights like on their terms. She wasn't allowed to leave. The the property was my nephew. Tabby howard's custody story was also highlighted by eight scheider. last year. There was a divorce with some child. Custody issues where she was forced to give up all control of her son to george so she gave up all her rental rights. And you see. She was forced to did someone gun to her head. No okay But in fact what she pro se in custody proceeds in not not represented by an attorney crowd And yes despite the wagner's repeated attempts to keep tabby away from her son. She tried to visit him as much as she could. Whenever we would try to reach out to. George hey come. I come visit might son. Angela would get on their all bees. Not your son anymore. You might have gave barcelona in on his real mother. Because i take care of a and all these nasty things. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Mattress warehouse knows that buying a mattress can be tough with so many choices. Where do you start introducing bed match a patented diagnostic system. That determines your pressure points and recommends the mattresses that are best for your individual sleep needs and it's found only at mattress warehouse come. Tried that match at a mattress warehouse near you. Visit sleep happens dot com for locations and get free next day delivery on select purchase. 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A tabby howard made one last valiant effort to see her son. It was an easter. Because i remember my sister made her son an easter basket. You know wanting to give it you for easter and everything. I went there with her It was me her. My mom and mom stayed in the car. And i got out of the car with tabby and we walk up there. You know Offer normal award 'cause she had previously called george asked If she could come see her son and give him an easter basket he said. Yeah that's fine Come on over and you can see Your son and give him his easter basket and she said all right so we went there and then once we got their energy answered the door and tabby said oh. I'm here to see my son. Atmosphere managed to you know spend. A few minutes was aim for easter decide. Let me go get george. And and she's slammed the door and my sister's things out their way in a good ten fifteen minutes and then towards comes out she stored. She said what was that about. Why was your mom being able. I didn't do anything. And he was like. Oh a she's a good move today and she said where where's our son you know i'd like to san. You said i could come in. And he said oh he's in there With a fever right now. He's sick from staying. Are ball my day throwing a fit and everything else you know. Just coming up with another is then. My sister started crying. She said wanna just wanted to see my son. You said i gotta what's the problem and was like old old cry and everything's all right and then a wide tried to hug her and she said no on a wanna hug you know she said. Don't touch me and he's like all right. I won't touch you. you know. She was like wiping away. Tears and stuff. She said well. Can you at least give this to our son and if you have time whenever he gets it can you send me. A picture of him wasn't even if it's just a pitcher. I'm happy to see my son. I don't know if he ever got the easter basket or not or if they throw it away i don't know like tabby howard victim. Hannah may rodent. Kept up the fight for her child after she and j wagner had broken up but the rodents had one advantage tabby. Didn't we didn't have money like the romans got money. They had money to Maybe not as much as the bay still they feel. You live pretty damn comfortably if they wanted to. you know. Take andrew to court. And all that then angie would have a real problem on our hands especially since they have money to and hannah was the mom and here in ohio. The mom has had the right and they weren't married. Your sister and george were married. Which immediately changes the city discussion from the start. So unlike with the two of you had and jake unmarried so he legally had no rights so that became an added trigger potentially right and it seems that the wagner's knew that we talked last season about forge custody documents the wagner had drawn up in order to get sole custody of hannah wrote in and jake wagner's young daughter agent scheider discussed the genesis of these custody. Documents also called declaration documents in great detail. George wagner's hearing last year. Here's an excerpt from that testimony. You seize the computer. From wagner's that correct correct okay and that computer was analyzed for evanescence crash during that review of the content of the computer. You discovered that there had been documents. Google search for on april thirty two thousand six hundred right declaration documents correct and then you also see that. Those documents will print it out of the computer on the same day. Yes the bottom of the pages that says april third twenty sixteen like computer sometimes deal when you print something. It says danger predrag. Did you ultimately recover those documents. The actual physical clocking yes. Okay and schwartz testimony. That one of them was a declaration. Reportedly made were apparently made by where it for. What was intended to be her signature. Correct did you submit all of these documents to be examined by the drive inexpert within. Okay did you find out if in fact that was we did. It was not for signature. Additionally you talked about the empathy with dated at a prior time in clear are you saying that they were in fact that yes dot is backdated as if it were signed in two thousand fourteen correct okay. So they print out of newspaper april. Two thousand sixteen. You see evidence about in the computer toss a printed out that same day you later also recover the original documents. We have raised stamp on and that didn't exist in two thousand fourteen correct so could not have been signed up correct prosecutor. Angie connecticut noted the unusual settlement on the wagner's forged custody documents. Cannon is to meet her denies fia should go to jake butt if jake meets his demise. His child goes to his mom correct. Correct last season. We highlighted facebook. Message that hannah road had written. During her protracted custody battle with jake it was discovered on a laptop owned by the wagner. Family agent scheider spoke about that message and the warnings she received from someone who is intimately familiar with the wagner's to fairus ways at the hearing. You talked about the fact that this relationship between was not going well that he was bugging her to sign stuff getting custody. Obviously documents that if she were to die would get custody. Wizard ace specific communication. That sticks out in your mind that hidden made made to another person rags became aware of yes facebook message. Okay messenger message okay. So messenger message. And who was that message to. Patricia would be tabitha's mother tabs on his ex wife. You said it was kind of messenger. Correct yes and so. If i'm understanding correctly private messenger is not something that anyone else would be seen except for the two people that are messaging correct. Are you aware whether or not the wagner's became aware of that conversation. Absolutely we're aware of that There's a screenshot of this conversation found on the laptop that belonged the widener family. The device was registered to jake butt. There's strong evidence that angela to be the primary user of that. Can you tell us. What were they discussing at the time that she made the statement. The theme of the conversation was basically patricia. Was telling hannah you know. Don't let what happened to tabitha. Have the you don't keep fighting for your kid. Don't give up your kid you know. Basically saying don't become another tabitha. And what does he say in response to that. This is the copy of the body of their techs conversation and her replies. I won't sign papers ever. It won't happen. They will have to kill me. I have not only did. Was that these sentiments. At the time that she would not sign papers ever that they would have to kill him. This was her sentiments on december tenth. Two thousand and fifteen and you know for a fact that the radnor saw it in fact the same data. She said that in just four months later in dollar per family are dead correct. I'm question after the rodent family was murdered. Christina howard and her family were panicked party much. A whole bloodline get marked off over the custody of one kid and you know my sister is. She's got a kid with them too. And you know after we heard about. We've otit better up on security because we ain't we ain't about to get crossed out. But when the wagner's were arrested in two thousand eighteen tabby howard's nightmare finally came to an end once they were arrested He was in like a child protective services for while at after few months she was finally granted full custody of her son following. Jake wagner admission in court. Just weeks ago. Christina had to come to terms with their feelings about the one wagner. She thought she could always trust grandmother. The accused frederica gullible. They probably told her some crazy stuff. Like all the people are after they're trying to frame us for murders blah blah blah. Well of course if. I'm gullible i'm gonna hi. I'm not saying she did or ernie thing but like and in that kind of situation. Yeah so what does the wagner sorted history mean if angela billy and george decide to stand trial. They all maintain their pleas of not guilty. It may force jake wagner to go to court and sit in front of his mother father and brother in front of a jury spillers guts in a lot of things. We have it known in the last five years or going to be known. Then you know who went into what home. who died. i why they died. You've got to believe we're going to learn things we never knew before it here things you would have never believed. And if the trial's move forward the stakes for pike county. Prosecutors couldn't be higher the case the prosecution is building against the wagner family. It's not a single story ranch. It's a frigate mansion and they're investing a lot of a lot of hours a lot of capital in this thing and they don't want to fail because if this thing fails can you imagine what a nightmare this is. If one little thing goes wrong with the whole case can be destroyed. But on april twenty as twenty twenty one less than one week after jake. Wagner's plea deal took place. His brother george appeared in a pike county. Courtroom reporter ange net levi was on the scene george just found out and the week prior that his brother had confessed and implicated his whole family. His attorney had been so steadfast in court documents in saying my guy didn't do this he wasn't involved clearly now. His brother was saying. That's not the case that george fourth was very much involved. I think we were all wondering. What is this missions hearing going to be like steward wagner going to change his plea more on that next time The peyton massacre returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker kris graves. Tim hamilton and haley nielsen engineering by jason freeman. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and katie studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. 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george wagner christina wagner george jake angela wagner angie angela jake wagner Hannah tabby howard Scheider ryan scheider hannah roden geico katie studios Geigo Dr larry enters piketty
Episode 4- The Houses on Union Hill Road

The Piketon Massacre

37:52 min | 4 months ago

Episode 4- The Houses on Union Hill Road

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It is this is orchestrated if you orchestrate something that goes to planning everybody understands and their position in the orchestra they understand what notes to hit. They have a specific purpose. And the job they know the area and they know the pray they know the nature of these individuals. Hell they know where their homes are. They know were security cameras. Are they know what they have to defeat to get past these whether it'd be locked timing wilted the bed. Tom they know all this. That's why this is so shocking. When you begin to think about it is the level of orchestration involved. A pull this thing off road. This is the painted massacre returned to pay county season two episode for the houses on union hill road. I'm courtney armstrong television producer at katy studios with stephanie. Lie decker and jeff. Shane hundred investigators and police officers have contributed so far to this ongoing investigation. Today they say they received eight hundred. Eighty three tips conducted. Four hundred sixty five interviews did thirty eight search warrants and sixty cyber extractions. I'll question this has been by far the longest most complex and labor intensive investigation. The ohio attorney general's office has ever undertake as investigator. I've worked Any number of mass killings. i've never covered these just. That's coroner distinguished professor and criminal forensics expert joseph morgan. It is not a normal thing to walk into. House and symbol and mass. It's something that waters only apocalyptic from the outset. The sheer magnitude of the case posed huge investigative hurdles for the pike. County sheriff's office johnny. It's it's a rural county. Of course they don't have a lot of money. It's not judgment just of when you begin to think about those detectives that were from this little area. They are pipe from pike. County sheriff's department this something they'd never worn witness to it leads to limitations in your ability to processing so it is Herculean under undertaking for for these investigators and less than a month into the investigation authorities made would seem to many leg. An unusual decision has already begun to move the homes where eight members of the road and family were found shot to death last month in pike. County ohio the judge has authorized his people to load the four mobile homes and transport them about four and a half miles north to the investigation command center in waverly to preserve the crime seeds while we talked with joseph morgan. We looked over aerial photos of the crime scenes before the mobile homes were removed. They're all we have to go on as no crime scene photos have been released. There's a mockup. Showing the placement of the properties on our instagram. The first few images were of the property where chris. Senior and frankie rodents trailers were located. Jeff got morgan thoughts on pike counties relocation strategy looking at these aerial photos while we're talking about it. What really struck me. They lived in trailers but these look more like homes that are in the ground. That aren't going anywhere to me. That the crazy is the most important part and moving them. That seems like that would not be so easy after the termination of this case. And when it's finally these cases are all adjudicated. I'm gonna want to study this from a crime scene perspective. Because i want to learn how did this i wanna teach this because if they did it effectively. It's something that somebody could write an academic paper on. I mean it's it's that big a deal. If you look at this image you would have to detach that mobile home completely. And it's probably a foundational structure so it's it's at least has a cinderblock foundation that is built around the thing so that they can build a stick build a structure around it and then attach it to the mobile home. Just the sheer logistics of detaching this thing from the ground. I've certainly you know never worked a case that involved. Multiple mobile homes that where people had been dwelling for years that are plumbed and have electricity run to them and have foundations and that they're just lifted up the crowning taken from their this monumental task and order silicate this. You gotta make sure that nothing is going to be disrupted in transit because everything is relative relative. There's distance relationships. There's time relationships because things degrade change. We've got bullet holes. Well this is not like going into a static home. It's moving back and forth as it's going down the road. So it's shifting well what is it shifts just a few millimeters relative to if you're trying to pull trajectories bullets so to that end. It really gives you pause to think. Why was it that you wanted to move it from this location. By any measure investigating the road and murders was a massive undertaking. Eight bodies spread out across four bloody crime scenes and soon after the victims were found ohio bureau of criminal investigation and fbi agents were called in to help lead the charge. But according to. Joseph morgan before the rodents mobile homes were moved. It was imperative that authorities analyze the scenes in their original state's viewing that body in the context and environment which is found. That's where the tale is told at that point and you have to allow the body to tell you. That story made me personal space. Now they'll say in bed composition. Someone walked up on them when they were unaware. Maybe they were sleeping at close range like that a single round into the back of their head. Well i don't want to move manipulate the body until it's tom to remove it from scene after spending measured and examined for things like postal changes and documented foot graphically. I don't change the body at all. I want to see what the body is telling me. Current the bodies lead biggest piece of evidence that you have because that is obviously in this case the target of what individuals were strived debts where the most force is brought to bear this where the muslim violence takes place. That's where you have the most transference it's gonna take place from one. Object to the body of from one body to another body the violence perpetrated by the alleged. Assailant's the wagner is in the road in case was unusually brutal thirty two gunshot wounds between eight victims. All the one shot in the head and the evidence collected on the scene and in the lab will all contribute to chronicling what transpired on the night of april twenty. first twenty. sixteen in light of jack. wagner's plea deal will be integral for the prosecution's case against the other three wagner's murders exactly five years. After the road and murders in pike county one of four defendants jake wagner is pleading guilty to all counts in exchange. He avoids the death penalty and will serve multiple life sentences with no chance of parole his father mother and brother are similarly charged and pleaded not guilty to help them avoid a possible death sentence. Prosecutors say jake will testify against them. I spoke with joseph mckellar about how jake wagner's plea will impact upcoming trials unique understand the larger narrative. Here he's now on the outside jacobs on the outside. He's no longer for all intents and purposes part of the family. He is going to be a state's witness at this time. So you're going to have defense counsel. They want to prevent the state from validating. Anything that this young man has to say. So jake's alrighty pled guilty. He's already implicated his family. Why is how these murders happened important. Now they want to try to either put all the blame on him. Say that are our defendants had nothing to do with us whatsoever. It's all him and he suddenly got a guilty conscience. Had you know what we say a come to jesus moment inside roll over on everything and it's all him all bomb sell. It doesn't matter what we think what's gonna matter is what the jury thinks. Moving forward at the end of the day everybody else will be able to draw their conclusions. But how in the world is this going to be presented to the jerry. You're gonna need play bill to keep up with all of the all of various permutations here because if you got you know four different parties here. I'm including jake in this and what he's saying to to prosecution you've got four different parties here That are giving you different scenarios. It's gonna be tasked to someone to try to make sense of all this and that someone that that that group of people are going to be the jury it will be explained before the court and people in that jury box and before the judge they will say. Well we know that at this hour on the twenty first this occurred and then moving forward this is when the bodies were found will what occurred between these moments in top studying the aerial photos of the crime scenes. Stephanie put into perspective just how overwhelming task it is putting the story of the road murders together to seeing these photos now firsthand walking through them with you only offers up more questions for us not a small operation. This was huge. The volume of this case is one of the striking things for me. I think you know out. With every case that i cover. I don't recall case like this. That's blood sub and it is spread far and wide. There's so many pieces that have to be put into place this year. Leapfrogging from this bloodbath to another bloodbath. The forensics alone or highly complicated just from a geographic distribution standpoint is like a beautiful mirror. Okay that someone had hanging on the wall and somebody with specific intent went in and destroyed this mirror and crashed it down into thousands and thousands of pieces. And then is your job to make sense of these broken pieces and try to put it back together not necessarily to make it usable again but to try to understand what happened what affected its destruction. To what degree is it destroyed. What what instrumentality may have destroyed. And what the timing was like on this. How long has this thing been destroyed. Spoke with joseph morgan about the importance of time line. Multiple homicide case. Tomlin is essential here because you know we just have these bits and pieces coming out about the order. Ah death. they're going to be really focused on the body and changes in the body and traumas the bodies sustained. And all the things i think that. That's that's something that's critical as we studied the aerial images of the crime scenes along with the autopsy reports. Morgan tried to piece together the chronology for us because his body was in a more advanced state of decomposition. It's been speculated that victim. Chris road and senior was the killer's first victim. So we started by looking at the layout of his trailer. Joseph pointed out could have been the killers way in here. He is talking to stephanie. The a poor parking pad right there. And there's like assad walk that extends up to. that's a ramp. yeah walking up into this little walkway into the porch area and therefore into the front door. There's this entire runway which was likely where the assailants entered cracked. So that brings me to this point. How many locks would have had to have been defeated on that door in order to gain entrance. And how can you gain interest to the door without making noise but if you're going into that porch it also speaks to the fact that they did have multiple trained attack. Dogs surveilling this area. Why didn't those attack dogs attack. Because there's a quite a bit of runway for you to get up to that porch and a possible that they knocked on the door. They knew one another. They family was very close or had very close bonds angelo. Add no. is there a woman imam. So wouldn't you go to the door a little more. Even if you were at odds if the dads for example christina and maybe billy wagner odds over something. We've heard this but you know his wife is there and july. Oh what's happening more likely to open your door. It seems implausible that they would draw them to the door. You know it makes me. It really makes me think. Why would they be in the bedroom. And how did the perpetrators get into the bedroom without these guys know that tells me that maybe there was a hidden key. It does make sense about perhaps a hidden key. Certainly we don't know this is fat. This is speculation but we do know that they were running serious surveillance on the family. They have cameras at each of the locations in the homes. Really doing some top level surveillance on the family and jake. The youngest son was there quite a bit because he was sharing custody with the youngest daughter and for a long period of time they would tick tock between homes you get to know the location in the area very very. Well just speculated about why. Chris senior may have been targeted. I he apparently was identified as primary target or at least as a primary threat in our language. And you hear this in the news media quite a bit on television shows that there really is truly something that is to his. Kill chris seniors case. He shot nine times. What do you make of the brutality of that. It kind of begs that question. Well either you view that person as a threat. Maybe see that they're going to charge you. Maybe you have an awareness of what their potential for violences and that you want to prevent that. There's evidence that he attempted or reacted at least to the point where he raised his arm. He's taken one round in his right forearm but this is the part that is very very curious. It says that around pass through a door. I don't know which door he was in a bedroom. Maybe it was the door to his bedroom. And maybe he was hiding behind a door but then it goes on to say that that round intern passed into his body. So we're we're learning just in the sequencing with With the senior among among the road and clan that there was a lot of firepower that was essentially directed toward him. You know he resided in a trailer with gary. So we can samoa's that christina was first then gary would have had to been second because they occupy the same essentially saying space. They had separate bedrooms. But gary didn't receive the same amount of attention that christina. He was only shot three times but these three gunshot wounds. He sustained two or to the head. And it's kind of nonspecific in the descriptors. We know that one was in the face and this is kind of a theme that that you see running through the nature of all of these killings and off on that kind of interesting because anytime someone has shot an individual in the face from a profile standpoint that gives you the attitude that the individual is looking at them. That's year when their fire upon. We're going to take a quick break here. 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That's modus diamond dot com Victims christine and gary rodents crime scene potentially held cachet of clues for investigators. We know that the scene in particular was very bloody. Okay because we know that. Chris senior was shot multiple tom so when we examine examined scene that is a treasure trove of evidence collection there. If someone has tried to clean themselves clean. Their hands washed out a weapon. Maybe try to repair an injury of their own. You've got evidence sitting in the drain and this is something they would have had to have accounted for so all of the drain traps everything within there would have had to have been secured. What if got flushed down the toilet. Well you know because now that's gonna go into septic tank since this is so isolated. They're not gonna be city sewer system logistically. It's a frigging nightmare. I mean for a crime scene person. It is an absolute nightmare. You have to make sure that all of your bases are are covered. Outside chris boden senior's home was potentially even more evidence. Here comes the big part that portrait there which is a point of egress. You need to keep that in mind. That is a point through which somebody entered this damn dwelling. Just let that sink in for a second. That's gotta be detached and moved now. It looks like they have a concrete slab parking area. This actually very nice. It's got a trailer truck. A great truck in a small car that sparked right by the sidewalk in the sidewalk is poured. Concrete is well. that's all going to contain potential evidence. We know that that is an important piece of. It's almost footprint right. That has so much potential dna or blood or something that seeps into it potentially blood evidence more than likely they traipse out of that house this would have required a herculean effort upon the authorities. There as we mentioned crime scene photos were never released there. Were also very few ground photos of the surrounding area because the entire road was closed to the public however the aerial shots provide valuable insight into the crime scenes. Most likely the killers then moved to the trailer. Just a few hundred yards away. Where frankie roden and his fiancee. Hannah gilliam were living with frankie's toddler and the couple of six month. Old baby boy. I'd always pictured it much further apart from one another. It looks as though and again this is an aerial shot. You could on foot run from chris. Seniors home to frankie where he and hannah where sleeping making it up to two franken. Hannah would be. That's no effort whatsoever. If you've been surveilling the area and keeping you know detailed notes on movements of people in this sort of thing. It wouldn't be a problem at all in order to facilitate that. The proximity of the homes most likely forced the killers to utilize some critical tools. Silencers we know from courtroom testimony that a homemade silencer was found at a property owned by the wagner's having silencers when these crime scenes are so close together. Seems like they would have to and it does sound as though from what. We've researched that frankie road in and his fiancee hannah gilly in their three year. Old son frankie's three year old son. They were sleeping at the time. Absolutely and the other thing is this is not something that you would do in the dark. You want to make sure. Because you're you're going there to specifically execute these people to kill them. You wanna make sure that you're going to shoot them so unless you you've got flashlights. In your hand which they bear will might have. You're gonna flip the switch soon as you walk through the door lights which is right there. The element of surprise allowed the killers to get with an intimate range of their victims was a gunshot wound. You don't think about that as being intimate but if you start scoring headshots particularly multiple headshots you know that there is kind of a close approximation of the perpetrator to the victim and that particular case so it tells a different tale and would gunshot wants to head particularly multiple ones. You want to think about well. Where are they shot in the head if it is an execution style to the back of the head. That's one thing that. I'm not saying that the person is being humane this doing it but they want it over with and done as quickly as possible when you start talking about shooting people in the face. This is something different particularly if it's multiple tops first off the individual has the potential to visualize you doing and you're visualizing them that brings it up to another level execution style means from the back of the head so you don't have make eye contact with your victim which makes sense classic interpretation of it like when i'm talking to somebody a fellow death investigator fellow friends excise person if i say it was an execution style shooting automatically for me. I would assume for most of my colleagues. We're gonna think okay. They're probably shot in the oxford. Which if you put your hand you know your fingers on the side of your head and you fill it big not the back of your skull. That's your oxford where you're sara bellum dwells where your promo brain dwells in there's mercy there's mercy in docs foot back there you know why there's mercy because if you fire into that area it's almost an instantaneous but if you start shooting people all over the body and you do it multiple toms and particularly if you approach and then shoot them in the face. There's no guarantee they're dead instantly. No no guarantee whatsoever. According to morgan the killers likely traveled a mile and a half up the road. Where victims dina. Chris junior and hannah road and lift. I can't imagine that dana hoses the same threat level. Say for instance as chris senior chris pretty robust county guy. Big guy worked outdoors with cars and whatnot. He's familiar with weapons. I would imagine he could pose a threat but this mother living in her trailer with her kids. What threat did she did. She pose is she. The focus of a tremendous amount of anger. Well when you combine the fact that they have committed overkill here with the sheeting her in her skull so many times and then they moved to shoot her in a manner in which could potentially disfigure her the seems to me almost a messaging that sent out in the people that are portrayed s purpose to them. We have the other hanna. And what kind of person could stand over a young woman and fire round into her face while staring at her. And her baby you're visualizing this. This is not something that's done in abstract. You're not a long long distance away. Your up close and personal and these rooms are there. You know it's. It's not the taj mahal here. I mean i. It's not rural tiny but they're pretty small You're gonna be on top of her when you're doing this. Jeff wondered how the brutal precision xtra by the killers could play into the prosecution's case. Does that come into play. They shoot another holding her baby twice in the head. does that make it worse than shooting her once. This is a prosecutors during. If you're talking about narrative right it takes so savagery on the part of an individual to do this. He look at chris. Junior who's in dwelling this place. He's hey shot is kind of nonspecific. We do know that that he was actually shot Multiple tom's in the head and he's sixteen year old kid. What what threat does does he pose. Well why would you take the life of the sixteen year old boy there. I don't. I don't understand that i think at the end of the day when we analyze all of these these shootings. There's thread. obviously. I've talked about about the overkill that the goes into all of this. But there's a a proximal issue here to that. That is that you're getting into the space of these victims. Then it's likely the killers targeted their last victim. Kenneth wrote in who is sleeping a trailer a few miles away on left fork road however kenneth crime scene was strikingly different from the other road victims. This is the end the big finale and they shoot this gun the i now you know. This idea that he shot in the ogden goes to another level of violence here literally. Did he see this coming at that. Moment top then to kind of you know. Put the icing on the cake. Mean you drop dollar bills around again. That goes to motive. You're you're trying to put the police on the sense that this is something other than what it appears i've worked cartel related homicides with the There's messaging that goes along with the sort of thing but again. Is that what they were going for. This is a different type of staging. You're not trying to mitigate the idea that it's something other than homicide still homicide you're trying to to the motivation behind outside to put them offset and that's a very very interesting narrative and you begin to think about it and your professional experience. Have you ever heard of a family that operates as a foursome to different locations in this manner. That's pretty uncommon. I would assume never a good working to major metropolitan areas as coroner medical tannin investigator. I've never encountered it. The syrup our bertie of the road and murders will be a critical part of the story but one element in particular will be crucial to convince the jury. Jeff joseph morgan about it. I'm just curious like how the prosecutors were gonna wanna talk about question of whether or not the victim for aware of their life was going to add end and how that might impact for jury going to be critical for the prosecutor to be able to the information that the investigators had developed in the field working these scenes in particular the time. These little markers and tom along the way how well were. They able to document the actions that took place within the environment. If they can get that information out into open court than they'll begin to talk about. I can envision closing statement in particular prosecutor. Stand up there and say they took their time. We have them document is being in this location. This particular time and use jury have to consider this. What were they saying. What were they doing while they were in there. Did these people know that they were about to die. And of course the prosecutor. It's their job to put this horrible. It is but the jury members in the place of the victims to help them understand. Because everybody's been in fear of their life the end of their life at some point. Tom so you have to make that almost. You can't do it but you wanna make it. It's almost tactile as you possibly can. So the people in the jury. They feel it stirring within their soul where they understand okay. These people were at a critical mass and they knew that it was about to happen. What would i do in that moment. Tom realized that malign was actually coming to an end. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment in the land of diamonds. 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That's diamonds dot com. I think that even a trained assassin would find it foolhardy to go about trying to kill eight people on same evening covering this much territory there too many things. That can go wrong unless you have somebody watching your back. You're going to have to have a person that potentially the lookout transporter you're going to have to have somebody that can muscle control the intended victims. And then you have to have shooter. And ideally you would. In fact need somebody. That's doing overall coordination because this logistically. It's a daunting task. I think to say the very least you know in this particular case There are too many variables involved. But even after you klan perpetrators are not crime scene. Investigators they don't think like crops and investigators. They're so very rare most of the cases that that we work as investigators. There is a huge opportunity where these people to screw up long white to leave something behind that is a direct indicator of their involvement or presence When these deaths occurred and in this case what was left behind included three young children. According to morgan despaired lives go directly to the heart of the presiding motive of the case the singular driver behind us. It has to those those children Hold value the attachment to the children as the driver. When you get overkill in in my experience at least it goes to a lot of anger it goes to a lot of passion and you'll see it and domestics you go to all the trouble but yet easily these three babies alive and you have to you to kind of question this and it has an investigator down a specific direction who would attach value to the shoulder to see. Continue to live and still exists among the land of the living of their cam. When accused killers billy angela george wagner had to trial prosecutors will paint them as the main characters in a gruesome multi-layered horror story. Good prosecutors are great storytellers. That's their heartbeat. If they are affected they take all these little pieces of evidence. All the stuff we've been talking about. And they tighten that thing down and they walk into the courtroom and they start talking about mamas and they start talking about babies and they start talking about these familial ties and it will be powerful in court. It will be very powerful. And i can. I can almost see it now. Envisioning right now when he starts talking about this and you can that jury. They'll be a slow turn of their his toward the defendant's table. No matter who's on trial up particular. Tom as they will talk about mama and they will talk about those babies and they're gonna stare that individual town. They don't think who in the hills in the courtroom with us. Right now while we wait to see if billy angela and george wagner will head to trial there's one man intimately involved in the road murder case who has already seen his day in court. Tie county sheriff charles reader after the road murders. He became front and center of all of the coverage. She was giving information alongside the ohio. Attorney general at that time people were looking to him for information and they wanted reader along with the state of ohio to solve these murders from all of the coverage that went into pike county in the months after these murders. Charlie reader was a central figure in that but sheriff reader had a quick fall from grace in june twenty nineteen he was indicted on eight felonies and misdemeanors targes included theft in office and tampering with evidence that was huge news not only because of his involvement in the road murderers. But i mean you're talking about the shitting sheriff. The high sheriff. Pike county is now the subject of an investigation evidence of misconduct evidence of corruption by a politician. You're going man. I don't know what may act with this. on march. twenty four th twenty twenty one. Sheriff reader appeared in court to face. The charges leveled against him. Guilty verdict would have major consequences. If you're a defense attorney working on this case and the sheriff of the county gets indicted. I would think you know. If you're a wagner attorney you look to have a field day with that that might be part of your defense more on that next time for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us on instagram at kt underscore studios the peyton massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves the pike and massacre return to pay. County is a production of iheartradio. Kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to. Your favorite shows management concepts delivers the training federal employees need for every stage of their career over two hundred. Seventy five courses taught online and in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership and acquisition courses available for twenty twenty one management concepts dot com. Love can make you stupid so think smart about her dream diamond before you take the plunge visit moves. Diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices moves. Diamond is the region's first choice. At mervyn's you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and leading designer rings from tacori verragio. You'll know why. Movers was honored by washington. Post as best place to buy diamond. Check our reviews at movers. Diamond dot com again. That's moves diamond dot com.

Joseph morgan jake wagner jake katie studios mervyn courtney armstrong katy studios County sheriff's department investigation command center wagner ohio bureau of criminal invest gary pike joseph mckellar christina stephanie ohio Chris road frankie
Episode 1- Ties that Bind

The Piketon Massacre

41:57 min | 4 months ago

Episode 1- Ties that Bind

"I'm dr lori santa's. I'm a psychology professor at yale. And i started to notice that a lot of my students all that happy so i created a new class longtime everybody to psychology and the good life. But it's not just my student who need to understand the science of well being and that's why we launched the happens lab so you can learn about it too. Are you ready to feel happier head to the i heart radio app apple podcasts. Or if you like to listen brought to you by ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire lost hills is a new podcast about a mystery and idyllic ilic malibu california when a man goes camping with his two young daughters and doesn't make it home alive after his death cops follow a crumb trail of clues arrested. Survivalists they find camping in the woods. That's when things get complicated. Loss hills is a shocking story that uncovers a dark truth about law enforcement in malibu california listened lost hills on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the pay massacre season to return to pay county a production of iheartradio and k t studios heavily. We are gathered here today. Power does a really good wedding. She having a camouflage stress and seattle cammo tugs eight bodies have been discovered in all members of the rodent family the largest case state investigators have ever seen. I told her i said listen. Don't wanna marry him and he well wide on. I said mom is very controlling. These join him from what we hear. The relationship was intense. It sounded like field of number coys taken to the instagram. As you all four members of the wagner family have been charged with eight counts of aggravated murder. I have never encountered querying. Entire family is accused of the mass murder of another family. Something so horrific has occurred in. Its own yawn explanation when i look at one particular pitcher from the wedding day. It's impossible to aleve that. Nearly half of the people are dead and half are accused of their murder. this is the pike. The massacre season to return to pike county episode. One ties that bind. I'm courtney armstrong television producer at katy studios with stephanie. Decker and jeff shane. On the morning of april twenty. Second two thousand sixteen authorities found eight members of the rodent family brutally gunned down across four different crime scenes. Pike county ohio two years later in november of two thousand eighteen four members of the wagner family were arrested for their murders. It was a gruesome crime that shocked the nation. We've been following the rodent family murder case since we made a documentary about a few years ago we were in the middle of producing season. Two of this podcast suddenly learned shocking development that none of us were expecting anniversary of the murders are social media. Folks started hearing people posting. There's a hearing today. You gotta be there. There might be something big going down. He told the rodent family to be at the pike county courthouse at one thirty four a hearing breaking news tonight shocking developments from pike account on april twenty second of two thousand sixteen eight members of the road and family were found dead at four. Different properties investigation lasted nearly two years before arrested. Jane wagner along with several members of his family people care about a lot of people know about it and a lot of people are talking about it today on thursday april twenty second twenty twenty one the five year anniversary of the murders. He sat at our computers watching a live stream from the pike county. Courthouse and there he was jake wagner flanked by his two attorneys judge. Randy deering entered the courtroom a record drought. I trust here. I'm here on behalf of the state of the highest on state of iowa as j whiter. That'd be pipe fatty companies case. Twenty sierra four vade marks the fifth anniversary of the homicides of eight members of the rooms daily families in his fifth anniversary. This is of force that we have reached an agreement with the featherbed edward lacquered to resolve this case prosecutor rob junk listed off the names of each slain member of the royal family christopher. Rigging seton gear room clarence frankie route through yearly data manley hannah routine christopher ridden junior when judge deering s jake how he pled to each aggravated murder charge. He replied with simple phrase won't league. I am joking We've realized that this whole case had blown open and we'd be following in real time. We immediately got on the phone with some of the journalists and experts that have been covering the case the closest across the board. There was one pretty consistent. Reaction absolutely stunned. I mean honestly you could have knocked me over with the federal. I didn't see it coming when we heard the judge. Say i understand you're here to make a plea agreement and we're like. Oh my gosh this. I was really surprised especially as long as they thought it was a shock. I was sitting in a restaurant. When i got the call and i almost fell out of the after all of these years that somebody is going to suddenly say. Yeah you know. I i know have said you know several times over. The last five years vehemently denied any involvement in this acted offended and then all sudden like oh yeah well. One of them changed their mind. It was a little bit stunning jake. Because everybody Who's really covered this case closely. Thought if anybody wavered it would have been george our first question. Why did jake wagner finally break. I don't know that any of us would know. Is he gonna tell us why. Why would you make this deal. Was he doing this to save their lives or was he just turning on them. I can't say for sure. Is there a likelihood that the other family members will plead out. I mean at entirely possible just weeks. Before the hearing we had received a photo from pike county native christina. Her sister tabitha was once married to the eldest accused son. George wagner in light of jake's plea deal. The image is nothing short of chilling. We posted on instagram at kt underscore studios. It's a picture of both the rodent and wagner families gathered together to celebrate george and tabitha's wedding back in two thousand twelve looking at it. It's impossible to imagine that aside from the bride half the people pictured would be dead the other half accused of their murderers yet. Here they are embracing in happier times at the left of the photo is jake wagner. The youngest accused son who just heard plead guilty. He's smiling his right hand resting on his accused. Mother angela wagner arm standing behind a six foot. Six is accused father. Billy wagner noticeably emotionless. Standing next to billy wagner in the photo is father and victim. Chris rudin senior family. Friends stefan remembers chris. Expert craftsmanship and genuine kindness. He was an amazing carpenter his imagination if they said money's no object. You would be amazed at the things that he can do. And you couldn't ask for a better person. Coroner distinguished professor and criminals forensic expert joseph. Morgan tried to make sense of the road and murders. Starting with father and family patriarch chris senior. Some of this will be hard to hear particularly if you're personally connected to the tragedy but it's important to understand the magnitude of what happened that night. He shot nine. Tom's now for me is a forensic investigator. I would look at that and i would deem that as overkill and now why would somebody need to be shot on. Tom's they're saying that there's evidence that he attempted or reacted at least to the point where a raised his arm his right forearm and it shattered one of the bones. When you've got an individual that has gotten defensive once that person has an awareness so that goes to the level of callousness at this rossouw to standing just in front of chrissy near in the wedding photo with his father's arm draped around his shoulder is the youngest rodent victim. Sixteen year old chris. Junior affectionately called little. Chris britney was chris juniors best friend. Oh chris he taught me how to love life. You know look at life differently. I can't explain it like it makes you wanna cry rodent. Family members spoke to reporters about chris junior soon after the murders christopher d get few just kind of driver sliced teenagers and sixteen year. Old chris. junior shot four times including twice in the top of his head he was found wedge behind his bed implying that he was trying to hide from the or killers just in back of chris junior in the photo stance his older brother twenty year old victim. Frankie roden christine new frankie growing up breaking. He was on a guy like he did it for sure hundred vision and all that but he did like derby as bad working on par stuff. That was his passion. Frankie rodent was engaged to victim. Hannah kelly not pictured just before the murders. The couplet had their first child together their six month. Old and frankie's three year old son were left alive at the scene. Frankie and they did want more children than you know they. They had a bright future. And just it just it just hurts my heart to think that you know the never get to go on with their future plans. You know twenty year old. Frankie road was shot three times in the head as he lay in bed next to his fiancee and their sixth old. We talked about gilly hicks shot five times she. She catches one in the eye. It poses this idea lying. She didn't these people in the face. What was the purpose of it because not only shooting. I share multiple. What what did she. Oh she she's laying. There was her child in the bed to the right of the group photograph. We see the two newlyweds. The accused eldest son george wagner and his new bride smiling excitedly. We believe that dana victim and matriarch of the road and family was behind the camera. Taking the photo christina remember dana road in that day in two thousand twelve seem pretty bubbly. She's along with her family. I seen her laughing with the but mostly she's going around taking pictures of everything. Dana rodent and chris boden and senior were married for thirteen years even though they divorced they remained friends in fact in lived just down the road and a home that chris. Senior burgess for her two weeks before their murders. She had just returned home from a double shift at her job as a nurse. That fateful night here is fan. One of dana rodents closest friends. She was such a good person but you know she would fight her family. She would literally fight for her and good hearted lot of fun. You know always laughing cracking up here. She was like really strong willed and really smart. Yes she was too. She was a very very diff person. She's very smart. She again like chris. Senior were shot multiple times and now only was she shot multiple tiles but specifically reports. Have her having been shot five. Tom four. Tom's tom's in the head. Now why the hell would you shoot somebody four times because you know one should suffice but the shooter took the time to take that muzzle of that weapon. Stick beneath daynuss chin. Stick it beneath her chin. This is a common location for suicide. All right this is atypical for homicide. Victim gary roden chris. Seniors cousin also not pictured was a beloved member of the family. By all accounts gary and christina were very close. Here's an ginette levy. She's an emmy nominated. Ohio reporter who has been covering the case. Since the beginning. Gary just happened to be chris's home that night. He was actually from kentucky so he didn't even live in the area in the neighborhood. He lived close enough to where he was staying with chris. That evening do know that. The shooter was very close to gary when fired because they talk about what is your as press. Contact shot wanted if our listeners will essentially take your index thing okay and pointed toward the palm of your hand and extend the tip of your finger. Maybe probably about half an inch away from the surface of your mom. That's kind of what. I two as a contact moon and what that means is that you're going to. Have you know the bullets about the only thing coming out of the end of the weapon. You're going to have the fire that actually the ignition of a bullet in the round. You'll have this burning powders. Come out you'll have unburned powder this coming out. So this is a very intimate event. Kenneth roden chris. News brother who is also missing from the photo was not with the family that day. He was a great father and he would do anything for anybody. You'd go kenneth who was actually again shot and face and not only was. He shrugged his shot in. I in a what. Does it say that they would take the time to put theirselves in a position where they could be face to face with kenneth. She was found covered with dr bills. That were string bass body keeps his guide. Any can't can't make this up. Standing front and center in the picture is then fifteen year old victim hannah roden. She's in a black bridesmaid's dress and leans in close to her boyfriend accused younger son. Jake wagner their child together would eventually become the alleged center point of this crime. They had been dating for a few years. When the photo was taken and appeared very happy. Jake wagner was hannah rodents i love christina. Told us things between them. Were getting serious. I heard manner day talking about how good and pretty taibbi and georgia's wedding that they hoped whenever they get married that it'll be pretty like that. All my brittany was also friends with hannah. She was great she was funny. She was really funny. She was really really nice. She knew everyone everyone knew her and she just like talked every everyone as she wasn't stuck up or anything like that and she lived life to the fullest prior to the murder. Hannah roden had broken up with jake wagner. She had started dating someone new and the pair had a baby together that she gave birth to four days before the murders hannah roden. She was shot twice in the hit four day. Old newborn late cider may be curls fetal posture along with her baby this curled in a fetal posture. Mama slowly stroke and the head of the baby. Try to You know com- suit the baby. During the night maybe she she awakes. Breastfeeds by the night while she's sleeping it's a position people slept in for thousands and thousands of years is physician of comfort. Imagine you're laying there. You're there protect your baby. Curled up on your side. There's an awareness. The only people left alive were three children. Infant frankie's three year old son from a previous relationship and the six month old baby. He shared with his fiancee. Hannah kelly the choice despair. The children lift investigators perplexed. Here's james pilcher. He's an on air reporter for local twelve news and cincinnati ohio and a longtime investigative journalist in the area usually when you have a mass shooting or a mass murderer. Everybody's killed so to see the three kids all under the age of three years old. Some infants were left unharmed next to their parents. Were shot dead. Very very unusual scene after the murders members of the road and family gave a statement to the local media pleading for help in finding their families keller's we know what follows is difficult listening but we want to acknowledge the pain the entire surviving rodent family has gone through a lot. People they lose one family member when you lose eight. Nobody has any idea what we've been through. Our lives has worked now. Who never been su. They stole some tremendous the killer stopes so much lace stole their lives but did they stole ours too because we live with every day. My brothers were good people. They would do anything to help you. Dane was a wonderful person to always tried to help to my mom is fiance. The we're taking away from their kids. They were taken away from us. My knees hannah may. She had a baby that i haven't even got to meet the kelly's carries mom and dad. They only know what we are all going through. And i know that in their hearts in their minds. They're hoping and praying every day. Just like we are that whoever did this will be brought to justice. Looking back at the wedding photo was hard to wrap our heads around. Is that all. The players are in this one picture. Christina gave us there they are the wagner's and the rodents smiling together and just six years later in november two thousand eighteen the wagner family would be arrested for the murders of the rodin's promised that the day would come when the rest would be made in the pike county massacres today is that day billy wagner his wife angela and their two sons. George jake are accused of multiple counts of murder billy angela. George jake wagner were all charged with eight counts of aggravated murder. Additionally angela wagner's mother read a new. Come and billy's mother frederico Will use of and obstructing justice for allegedly misleading investigators. Angela's mother renuka was also charged with forge in custody documents to cover up the crimes. Well what surprising was that you had these. Two grandmothers arrested frederico wagner and then Ngelo wagner's mother beat newcomb. You had two grandmothers being charged with helping to cover up these crimes because then your mind kind of goes wild you naturally think well did they know before it happened that you know if you're alleging they report of a cover up what happened. Though rita joe nukem reached a plea deal in which the bulk of the charges were dismissed and the charges against frederico wagner where eventually dropped the suspicion around the family grew and the ties that bound the wagner's and the rodents came into focus. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. 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That shakespeare from one of his unpublished works would be not for awakening. Nee give it. Though the berries fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more no. It's from gyco 'cause they help save people money. I hate to break it to you. But geico got it from shakespeare darko. Fifteen minutes could save you. Fifteen percent or more. We talked earlier about the baby. Hannah roden and jake wagner had together in two thousand thirteen the couple and their daughter split time between the rodent and the wagner households for everyone involved. The situation worked well however when the couple broke up in two thousand fifteen the families became bitter rivals broke that they were actually being indicted and charged. Felt like this must have been something personal. The animosity thirties to pinpoint one salient motive. In the case they say that the wagner were obsessed with custody really obsessed with their bloodline custody of the daughter that hannah roden shared with jake wagner. The prosecution says that was the heart of the motive in this case they wanted sole custody and they weren't going to stop until they got it investigative reporter jodi bar shocked by these allegations. I have never encountered this in my fifteen years of journalism where an entire family is accused of the mass murder of another family over. What's presumably if we're to believe the prosecution and the investigation over custody of children. I think it was the toughest part for me personally. Was dealing with what happens to those kids and then it comes out later. This was all about the kids and there was a fight over the kids. That was that was troubling to me. Personally like who would do that to have custody and to be able to love and nurture a child and yet have that act of violence within themselves to do that on their behalf. Those are two things that i just can't rectify in my mind was human nature to ask. Why why would someone perpetrate something so horrific that means we're we're going to radically eight you off the face the planet that's that's so on a biblical scale when been by god. We're gonna make sure that they're not just dead there. Julius caesar dead after their arrest the wagner's continue to maintain their innocence and their families with them every step of the way here's grandmother frederico wagner responding to reporters when asked if she thought her family was involved in the road and murders so -lutely not surrounding were deer that lysenko in the two years since the arrest most of considered the wagner's the most likely suspects in the road and murders. It appeared that they were very close group who greatly plan this massacre for months but at the same time it just beyond the pale to an entire family over custody. And now. After jake wagner's bombshell plea deal we wondered was the wagner bond breaking wagons were a cult like family and if the wags are accused of doing to the rodin's i mean. They're accused of doing this together. They're accused of trying to cover it up together as a family and the old cliche blood is thicker than water. Well like i don't know what the probability of in a colt one telling on another Especially with the consequences. That would come down. If one wagner told on another one went to prison you know the state had to depend on one wagon on another the chances of that happening or likely not very good now. Finally they're made some answers. You know who went into what home. who died. i why they died. You know why they chose to spare the children. So i would just hope we get to hear finally from someone at least jake wagner's case i mean where's the remorse remorse for what happened. And if not man this is again. There's a level beyond cold blooded evil if there is a level beyond that i think we have seen it. I don't know that we know what to call it. In all jaguar guilty to all eight aggravated murder charges as well as to fifteen other criminal counts that included conspiracy aggravated burglary and tampering. With evidence he also named his father. Billy his mother angela and brother george wagner as co conspirators in exchange for his plea. The death sentence was taken off the table for him and the rest of his family. But perhaps what's moshe shocking is at jake is actually going to testify. Against all of his family members it seems that the bare minimum. There's not a wagner that stepping out of prison anytime soon. The following real time audio from the courtroom when the prosecution laid out the charges against shake bag ner clarity repeating he in each members of his family to include billy Recliner and being hilty of all the counts continue investments filed in this matter based on the information now known by stating including a forthright statements of the overwhelming evidence. Defendant in the senate members of the family are in fact responsible for planning carrying out the size. Jaded mitigating the league hours of the twenty first two thousand sixteen inch early morning hours a bit. Twenty seconds and sixteen is when they admitted his side's we know that they trust hasn't eaten for residents were found intact anything. We're armed with firearms at two. Which means that. It's down when they did so we know that they conspired together in the end the time the science for the months that led up to the offensive. And they're all four come. You took part in that as well as making various purchases to accomplish urkel. You know that they knew. The phones ought to of the victims and cameras and other equipment of the order to away cassian. Jake also admitted to personally killing five. Members of the rodents himself though the victims were unnamed at this point is not dryer defendant has assets confessed and apologize committing these offenses with his family to personally causing job actors and either committee. All of the other offenses contained the very directly or by being complicit in that it was also noted that wagner provided investigators with information that led to the recovery of the weapons and vehicles used in the murders most sat down this statement. Many more details regarding instance someone which were very consistent with what the seat when hugh and would be had already been collected some of the information however was provided by a new in addition to the information they provided us what he told us let us to discover. Some evidence had yet specifically in the weapons that we use your offensive along with eagles reuse. Your these offenses including one. That was specifically tuesday night. Though jake was spared the death penalty prosecutors pulled no punches with the sentencing part of the green business investments of occasion in exchange for defending the state making joint recommendation to the court that the the eighth consecutive life without parole sensors forest lease council. Regain the environment. Jake slayers responded. We're fully satisfied that he's gone eyes wide. Open this agreement. He knows to die prison without a judicial release and as he said. I appreciate you mentioning it. S i'm sure you'll save more one. But they assessing arrives as horrifying as this is for all sore is one moment from the court. Proceedings stood out to us when the judge was running through each victim and got to hannah. Wrote in it was impossible. Not to notice when jake wagner had an audible pause and day noticeable smirk. What do you make of this smirk. When he is pleading guilty. He kind of smiled. I don't know if you noticed that. Oh i hear did that's my gallon. He's a former prosecutor and now a criminal defense attorney in ohio. He's been covering the case for years. I don't know how you could work up a smile. I don't care what you're thinking for something like that. What does that say about jay He's got a depraved mind. Anybody that could do that. I would not meet obviously the legal definition of sanity. But you know there's something wrong with them that you can beat that cold to go about doing that. I mean really. That's all. I can say i've been at this stuff for a long time and i've never seen one is i guess it comes to. My mind is hard core as s whenever being the little part working with like fascinating to canada by he was trying to hold back a lab or some ally okay. I don't know if you're hornblower shower. Or if you're carlos one of those awkward there was a different reaction when hannah's name came up maybe his reaction like that because by a personally killed or something. Ohio governor mike dewine who presided over the investigation as attorney general was at the pike county. Courthouse as jake's hearing unfolded. Well we've all read or heard of the book in cold blood. This was cold. Cold cold one. I mean this was calculated planned out. And just you know i mean it just chills you to think about the calculation that goes into something like this five years ago. Today i was here. We met with family members in the church. I committed to them that we would find who did this. And that we would bring them to justice. Justice done today and there was a collective sigh of relief from locals in southern ohio. Hi county resident. Barb explained her initial shock. I can't imagine that he would admit to murdering eight people and if he didn't do it he said guilty. I thought are you lying. What are you what are you doing you know. But then i thought oh my god i just i blew my mind. Britney tried to come to terms with the news. i'm just focusing on the good and good thing happened today. And i know they're in heaven looking down and just thinking how stupid. The walkers are thinking they would get away with christina put the day's events in perhaps the most poetic way possible to me and karma is a bitch and a catch up with everybody eventually. Run all you want. But you'll never outrun. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment ago. The greatest diamond in the would have found at movies before you pop. The question visit moves. 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He was doing it to keep her fell from getting the death and pretty much cowling all the rest of his family. Like yeah. we're gonna drag. You guys dow but i'm gonna save my but from again the fan. Was he pleading guilty to save himself for his family. The family has done nothing but fight. Fight fight in profess their innocence. This whole time and you know. I thought that they would fight this to the bitter end and tickets trial and see what they can do trial. So now you know if billy the controlling figure among the controlling figuring distant around jake's there to think for himself he has information on a lot of them and yes he did throw them under the bus but perhaps he saved their lives him. What's in store for. Jake's co conspirators. None of the other wagner's have pleaded guilty. So what could we see if they go to trial. I just think for a family that was so united and You know did things like take votes on finances and while nights and children. I mean they were. They looked you know as one unit. The prosecution has said in court papers. These people did nothing without consulting the other. This is a massive break a massive shift. I guess a huge crater in the middle of the wagner family kind of united sign. He is going to testify against his family members. Now i mean i. I don't know. I don't know anybody in hollywood. That could a better script in that know. How compelling is that something that that has this kind of gothic undertone to it. You know in rural america where these individuals are going to come forward and And stand and stare at him you think about staring in to the eyes of your kin folks across the room as you're sitting in the dock there and you're looking at them straight in the eyes and People that you've spent thanksgiving with a christmas is You know the moment's wretched life and you're looking at them and you're potentially sending them to bourboule gallows bumper to what you're going to say but what happens if the other three wagner's reach plea deals as well if any other guilty plea in this case in the way jake wagner's ended. We still may not know exactly why this happened. The thing possible murder it. You go back to april twenty second twenty sixteen in a month after. I mean everyone had assumed that this was a drug cartel hit it fit. It made sense. The only way this could happen is a highly skilled. Trained assassin would come in to pull this off and get away with it. I want to know exactly what happened that night you know. How do they get in the homes. We know the end. We've got some idea what happened in the middle. But i wanna know about. The beginning was is truly about custody. You know i would just like to know you know exactly. Why from j wagner. When did the switch flip to where the only resolution to whatever was going on between him. And the rodents that point was to go and kill them all makes absolutely no sense One thing is certain there's only more bombshells to come. We'll be tracking the case in real time as they develop proved that the investigators and the prosecutors did their job was the biggest murder case in the history of the state and they got their man the relationship fractured. However you want to describe it. You know there's no turning back from his family now. The prosecution now hold on the coach and it seems justice has begun to be served now. Three more wagner's to go. The peyton massacre returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared ten additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and katie studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A management concepts delivers the training federal employees need for every stage of their career. Over two hundred seventy five courses taught online and in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership and acquisition courses available for twenty twenty one management concepts dot com in the land of diamonds mervyn king mcqueen with a gorgeous nervous diamond before you go down on one. Knee visit nervous. Diamond importers with a huge selection of high quality diamonds. 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jake wagner wagner pike county george wagner hannah roden chris chris junior jake frederico wagner billy wagner angela wagner Hannah kelly christina Jake wagner Hannah roden dr lori santa Loss hills Tom courtney armstrong katy studios
Episode 9- Piketon Uncovered

The Piketon Massacre

35:45 min | 1 year ago

Episode 9- Piketon Uncovered

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Las hills is a shocking story that uncovers a dark truth about law enforcement in malibu california listen to lost hills on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the. Pike massacre episode nine. We're gonna do something a little bit different for this episode and go into the process of producing the podcast and also answer some questions. We've been getting over social media. I'm courtney armstong i work at. Kt studios with stephanie. Lie decker and jeff. Shane where finally together again distance but together yet because of covid. We've all been recording separately. But we're actually in the same socially distance space today for the first time in many months and we were sitting outside to keep safe one of the things. A bunch of people have asked about is how we came upon this case. And jeff do you wanna speak to that. Because you really were the impetus for yeah Kt studios we do a lot of troops crime programming and so we're always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that are layered and complex. That could make for compelling television documentaries and you know when it first happened when the roads were first murder. Got a fair amount of attention at the beginning and as we've talked about pretty quickly the media kind of backed off when there weren't and that was kind of all there was to it and in terms of our knowledge and then in june of twenty eighteen. I read an article by jeff winkler. Who you've all heard during this podcast that he wrote for the outline long-form article about the crime. That really he did such a good job of laying out the story and what happened and the people involved and it immediately struck a chord with me. Just the human element of it all and how tragic it was and so reached out to jeff winkler and started the conversation about figuring out how we could make this some sort of long form documentary. Yeah so here's an excerpt of him. Talking about peyton and part of what drew is all in so i remember that very specifically was a big media story for about two weeks and you know everybody from all over came to cover it all of the world and then They left and they murder still unsolved. How did you end up writing because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was the Tell me about that. I wrote a piece about a year later. This was after all the sort of Fanfare media attention. When away. And i went to piped-in a year later almost to the day after about a year to the day of the killings and i wanted to see how the town was doing both the community and people were directly involved in it because at that point there was still Knows that specs. No one was really arrested or being prosecuted for the crime and it was the largest unsolved murder and ohio's history and the second largest mass murderer that year in united states after the pulse shooting in florida. We've been tracking this case since it happened. And when we first got involved the wagner's hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at as suspects by detectives so we pitched the idea of this documentary to rod esa and corey abraham who are executives at nbc universals oxygen network. And really the spirit of that. Was that this. Huge crime had occurred to the poor road and family and the killer was at large and there were still out there. Cut to the wagner's get arrested and our executives at oxygen. Call us and put us on a plane to pike's yeah i mean let's talk about we've spent. I mean i think between the three of us weeks in piped-in over the course of many trips and yet you guys spent more time there than i did so i'd be curious what your take on. It is my first time was when we were going to do the doc And i flew by myself. I think like thanksgiving and met jeff winkler. Who of course wrote this important article who we were just talking to brainstorming with. Initially this trip stephanie. That you're talking about was literally nine days. After the arrests you know they. The wagons were arrested on november thirteenth. Two thousand eighteen. She's on a plane on november twenty second and so it was really soon after that the team was there and i mean the town was an i think a form of shell shock at that point. I think the mood in the town was really palpable. There was something very big about what was happening around You know we've said this before. It is a very small town. Two thousand people so to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand. Every single person in the town is affected to some degree or know somebody six degrees of separation who was either on the wagner side or on the road inside so everyone was very affected and asking questions about this huge crime. At that time you know can can be hard. Because it's a sensitive topic and it seems as though the town of piped-in specifically in many of the family members of victims or on the wagner side that in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press. So we want to be very sensitive about that. Yeah another thing jeff. Winkler talked to us about was his visit in two thousand seventeen kaz thing that stood out for me when i went to visit was just how human everyone was and i know that sounds a little trite but i mean i grew up in the ozarks in arkansas. So coming up in the ozarks and then spend time texas and tennessee This is where. I think the stories are in the coverage needs to be done more. And you know when the initial coverage happens you know it was just the sort of Footage in quotes from sad sort of backwoods people how they're perceived but everyone. There is full of faith in humor. And you know real real. Sort of american Mentality people there who had family members Still had it's sort of a grim humor About things so as a way of coping and People found faith in the local church. And you find these sort of avenues. That people from anywhere finds To grieve and to sort of move on and that was. I think that was the biggest thing when i went there. Definitely clear ended up becoming the greatest. We hopped in a car and drove. I don't know probably fifteen hours a day. Door to door to various peoples homes between kentucky and ohio jeff winkler. He knew this area. He'd been to piked and many times prior so he had already been there and had the lay of the land. I haven't we've been tracking this case from far far away. It's articles it's newspapers. It's news clippings you develop this relationship with the victims victims families and now the accused simply by staring at their photos excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating even just getting off the plane and renting a car to drive to piked in seeing the water tower as i had seen in so many photos and wanting to kind of understand better where the high school was and you know where everybody lived in. I remember being emotional and it's hard you know. We may prime shows for a living. But then sometimes when you're submerged in the place and you know what. The grief is that everybody is experiencing on the victim side and on the accused side. It's a town ripped apart and a to jeff's point there's not a single person at the gas station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant that isn't either a thought is in talking about it or thinking about it to your point about showing up and just knocking on doors as tv producers. Were used to being able to call people and book. Some of these shows over the phone. Pike i think is a little bit of an outlier you know. There's not a lot of cell service they are. People live in the hills. And it's hard to get someone on the phone and so the really the only way to do it was to show up. Knock on the door. You know with a smile and a box of cookies or a pie and just hope that people would answer the door and be let us in which luckily the town of piped-in was really for the most part very kind and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah the first place. I went with rita and knocked on her door and she was lovely. Invited me right in you know. She was in fact wearing an ankle bracelet because she had recently been released into be truthful. At the moment i didn't realize how embedded she potentially was in this Investigation and the first morning i was there was the arraignment of jake. Wagner and Is an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent. It was delayed by almost forty minutes. Was supposed to be nine o'clock. Start and i've never sat in a more silent room filled with people And it was very interesting experience. Seeing jake walk in and hearing his plea and sitting near members of the rodent family where people on both sides on his side where people on the road inside like what was your experience like yeah. People were definitely on both sides and the rodents was absolutely filled and the wagner side was much more sparsely filled. Doing that speaks to what we've been hearing. And what we've been trying to convey with this podcast. Which is that the road and family was so incredibly close and as we were told family over everything yeah absolutely and just the devastation that ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend So people were definitely there. People were definitely very sad. Very tragic and but there were there showing their support. I remember when courtney was at that arraignment calling you just to see what was it like you know again. We have these visions in our head based solely on photographs of the wagner family take wagner being the youngest just to kind of be able to see him face to face air quotes or at least kind of look in his eyes to see. Does that look like a person who could actually commit something. So heinous in the truth is it's really an unanswerable. Question a lot of people understandably a lot of listeners have asked about where the children are. now yeah brantley. Who is frankie rodents. Who was frankie. Wrote and son is with his mom. We actually and i knocked on Her door in hopes speaking with her she declined which made complete science. But we we met brenton. He seemed like a great kid. He's smiling and laughing and in a few minutes we had with him seemed well adjusted. Which is a relief for us as human beings yeah just as a reminder. This is the small young boy who crawled under his. Dad's bed who he was sharing with his soon to be stepmother and waited for police to come. This is the kind of terror that this family was put through and to jeff's point when we saw him we felt a great sense of relief. That he he looked like he was thriving pilot. Who is hannah. Rodin's newborn baby is with her father. Charlie gilly shows the infant. That was just born five days prior to hannah wrote in. I would say for all of us to in. This probably would apply the listeners. To the fact that there were such small infants and young children left alive at the scene. Just kind of puts a dagger in your heart so Unfortunately sophia wagner. Who is the child of jake. Wagner and hannah road is in the care of child protective services and that's something i know the road and is unhappy about and i know specifically in the wagner side of it to ray is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there are people who are blood related to sophia. Who could give her a really good home right now. So here's a little bit from d'auray about that so you're actually hoping takes a fia in and give her safe and comfortable home while all this is happening. Yeah absolutely. I mean. I'm i'm professional. I mean i take in children with trauma. That's my profession. That's what i like to do. I have two boys with me. now who have autism. They're excellent children. They are well up there. Proof in the pudding and we would have had a really good time so they couldn't even. You couldn't even see sophia. If you wanted to. I could not i wanted to know. Is she's loved. I don't want her to think anything's wrong. Something yeah that we've been asked about by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast has affected the people that we interviewed and the people that have spoken out about it. And i think for the most part. It's been pretty positive in terms of who we've talked to in their experience in piked living in piped-in barb for example told us that she felt like the podcast represented the town well and story in a fair way. Angie montgomery who we talked about. her cousin. Curtis and johnny's case felt happy that we were finally shining light on something that people haven't really been talking about. That was a really important piece of this for us. Because we care deeply about piped-in first and foremost we've been there many many times. The town has been extremely kind to us at a time that not everyone has been not kind to them and making sure that we weren't coming across in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and the victims families understanding that there's a gag order understanding that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials it's important the stakes are actually extremely high. And where widely aware of that. But it's hard not to be emotional about it or to get emotionally attached to an answer or want to really understand. The is who's responsible for something so horrible and as a result i think every time we get involved deeper into this case we want to know more is possible that hopefully the mom isn't involved. This couldn't be if angela wagner was at the center of it is it because she was being forced to be so by her husband or is that just a lie or was angela wildly manipulative and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her family. Defending her sophia. And if that's the case silly plan because now you're never gonna see your boys again. You've all been separated if convicted you'll never cross paths unless one of you on the other in court and with four people you know if indeed they are deemed guilty There's the question that we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and who that is there is an informant who's been written about and if it is one of the four you know if they've turned on the rest of their family. How that would bear out because You'd be hard for to manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accepted. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. 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Although we're desperate to now add for years four years separated there's zero chance at all. Four of them will stick to the exact same story. Not have the exact same amount of guilt like somebody's gonna crack. If that's the informant. It makes a ton of sense. And if that's the informant who was either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow that to me would make a lot of sense The fact that george wagner is requesting a bible and requesting solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time to me has always been a bit of a tell. You know jake yes. You're caught up if in fact. This is true that you need to have custody of your child and your heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody else and just had a baby with somebody else in. It's it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We may crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money or revenge defending your family. This checks all those boxes but that was then now add for years realizing you're not around your daughter any longer you've committed mass murder from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack is my point. Just legal reminder angela billy jake and george wagner were charged with aggravated murder angela. Wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem billy wagner's mother frederico were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes. Innocence until guilt is proven. Can we talk about one thing. That has always i. I'm going to speak for all of us. But is the thing in my head that i can never get out of it in terms of whether or not we believe which frankly matters for nothing if the wagner's are in fact guilty or not. It's the hacking why were they hacking the rodent family for as long as they were according to the official documents that we have seen It has been reported about also that in fact they were busting into social media. Why in such a mass in such a way to. It's not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be trump if incorrect. It doesn't appear that. Say for example. Jake was hacking hannah. Rodents facebook because he was wildly jealous about her new relationship or that she had moved on and a new relationship. That is terrible to do under any circumstance but that seems like a young person's effort but it doesn't seem like that was the case. It was a fairly high level surveillance operation happening to all of them. And why what has been brought up in court is that it was deeply organized i mean. There were excel spreadsheets. Done hundreds and hundreds of entries about child custody. They put up cameras and they were in all of their computers and phones. Who's really elaborate. It was elaborate and they were. The wagner's were often together. So was this an activity just because they wanted to track. Hannah's relationship or like where were they tracking you know what makes the most sense on the surface and again allegedly is that they were tracking the coming and goings and tracking the property and understanding the dogs. It did seem as though big dogs were common. And we know for a fact that the rodents had attack dogs. Why didn't the dogs attack. That really does make no sense. Still however if you knew the dogs and you had been to the home many times as certainly jake would have been many times and you had an understanding of kind of how that worked and what their habits were. It does feel like an indication that the wagner's were up to no good if they were legitimately cyber stalking an entire family just months prior to that family is tragic. Death clinton from texas asked us. Why sophia wasn't with her mom the night of the murders and was it. Under unusual circumstances that she was picked up by. Jake wagner and yeah. It's up for debate. Why sophia wasn't with hannah. Jake wagner has admitted that he did pick sophie up a day earlier than he originally planned and that says she wasn't with her mom that fateful friday evening jake wagner said on the record i reckon we missed it by just a few hours and by he means the murders and so. We don't know what happened between jake wagner and hannah wrote in the night of the murders are why he told her he was picking her up early or why he did pick her up early but we do know she was supposed to be with her mom that night and for reasons we don't know jake wagner did take her home early and my expectation would be if we have text exchange exchanges just based on the fact that we know that people tech so frequently because the reception between phones can be spotty these rural places. There has to be some sort of a message. Saying i will pick her up early or requesting to pick her up early. I think that is another huge smoking gun the fact that sophia wasn't there that day and was picked up by jake off of schedule. He's changed his story on this a couple of times and i think this was a key place where there wasn't inconsistency about this topic but regardless it is suspicious and we disagree on that i think things happen and what seems the simplest explanation to me. Is that harrison had just had a bb days before and maybe she wanted to break with just her infant and not a toddler but something. We don't know jay from storm like asked us what happens. If the wagner's get off will get custody of sophia. I can only imagine that if the wagner's do get off they will attempt to get back to normal life and it's possible they would want custody of sofia but former prosecutor. Mike allen told me that because they were so closely linked to the murders. It may be difficult for jake wagner and to obtain custody. Which if he's innocent is tragic to think that because he was mixed up in this he wouldn't be able to get to raise his daughter. Here's an extra of that conversation with my gallon. so let's say jake wagner does dead off and has proven not guilty. He's to do you think he doesn't. He doesn't have a chance of getting sophia back. Probably has a chance of getting her back. But i think a judge would be hard pressed agreement custody for someone who was named as a defendant in a in a multiple homicide case even if he is acquitted. You just don't know But i know what that's not going to be decided. I don't think for for many years to come even. Let's he really didn't do it. And he's being held wrongly accused that he never gets his daughter against universities. Here daddy like that. Even alone is such a tragedy. Well if there's no evidence or or no strong evidence against him and he's acquitted and people are scratching their head thinking more. Why was he even indicted. Suppose he would have a chance then But you never know. I mean you never know what happens if it's criminal trial. The custody battle is one that will probably outlive the the criminal case That will probably go on for years and years and years. I mean obviously it was a contentious subject before the murders Again many believed that that was the primary mode of but that will continue to go on They'll probably be numerous court hearings for years until that's finally settled and that that's a shame because the children if they're not already hurt which of course they are. They're going to continue to be victimized. Probably for a long a long time to come susan from new vienna. Ohio asked us win. The trials are supposed to begin. And that's an interesting question. Obviously the wagner's did waive their right to a speedy trial But now because of covid. It seems that the trials have been delayed Billy wagner's attorney. Mark collins said that the trials have been put on hold angela. Wagner's attorney said something different. He said the trials were supposed to begin this fall which would be very soon if not imminent so it's unclear about what exactly is happening but we do know that right now. The pretrial hearings are happening. George wagner just had his last week so things are starting to move in the right direction. There was an attempt to be made to get him. released on. bond seems very different than somebody being held in solitary confinement with a bible waiting for their last days. These are death penalty trials. That's not to be underestimated. Four separate capital punishment. Trials are a big deal in one shirley effects. The other in any inconsistency from one to the next has to be paramount to all. I would imagine you know. I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question because they are four separate trials. So i don't know actually if one has bearing on the other i mean you know you'd assume the evidence some of it will be similar but it's it's all going to be dependent for example. I remember reading that. Dna was there is confirmed that the prosecution has dna evidence. Let that evidence is. We don't know but there's been made mention of it so you know the fact that there's differences in dna is going to change the course of those four trials completely. I just suggesting that those trials the i guess the narrative from each of the wagner members family members has to be pretty buttoned up. If there's one inconsistency between jake's story and his mom's story or their dad story that's a big deal. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment after all that planning it's happening. Diy closet renovation is finally becoming a reality question is where do you put your things while you work cubes. Smart has you covered with month to month leases and self storage solutions that make it easier to get organized online or in person getting self storage. It's convenient and fast and because diy renovations can easily go over budget. It's great to keep smart is offering up to twenty five percent off your monthly rent sieg by two before and hello to after with qb smart self storage visit cube smart dot com for more details your time for real summer fund is here so ditch the boredom and hit up your local many dealer because the mini summer of dr event is happening. Now get a new mini cooper. Hardtop two door starting at two twenty nine per month for a thirty six month low mileage lease two thousand nine hundred ninety nine due at signing visit many usa dot com slash for details. That's many usa dot com slash east. And see what it's like to drive something this fun. At the summer of dr event with many another question we got was from coal from belfast ohio. Who asked us if something happens. And the wagner's are found not guilty. How do we think the town would react to them. Being back in in and would they be able to stay in town. And it's a it's a good question based on what we've heard and the reaction to the wagner's i personally think it would be really hard for them to stay in piped-in we to a wagner family member who wished to remain anonymous who gave us some pretty horrible details about what happened to them before the arrests dabbing said you frederick does have a lot of land in piped-in and they have a lot of ties to the community so they might. That might be where they would call home. Frederico wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle. By all towns she is the great matriarch of the wagner empire and she looks like such a beautiful grandmother would conjure up in your head or if he were casting a movie that you wouldn't believe somebody could look so perfect. She was as little black lace veil over her face. It sort of an overlay. But it's really a look that makes you think oh she could never be involved and she so beloved by the town and has done so. Many charitable things. That's a real cross section of opinion by so many some people say that she is a pure saint the kindest nicest the most genuine. The most charitable human that has ever walked the earth and other say. She's downright wicked. I mean listen. There's two sides to every coin. And i think both of what you said bears out. It really depends on what your perspective is. if you are one of the people who frederico wagner has helped along the way and provided food and assistance you're going to see the godly woman that so many people speak of. And if you are one of the people who were renting land that you were supposed to be buying at the end of it and then you allegedly had that land pulled out from under you and revert back to frederica. Then you're going to feel very very differently. Both things are true. Both things are true. That's what's so complicated about this. So you know. Discovery continues and these trials. I think would be set sooner than later. I would imagine the hope. The defense of the wagner is was trying to move the trial outside piped-in because getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging and they were ultimately denied that privilege. That's kind of a strike against the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is that they are accumulating. A lot of evidence at this point and much of it. We can't get our hands on so there have been pretty tight. Lipped outside of the silencers. The vests the shoes that were bought at walmart Dna evidence that's said to be found to add one if not multiple crime scenes but outside of that they've kept a lot of things to themselves understandably so and that. I think we're going to hear about sooner than later. Because who goes i. I think is very interesting. Who do you guys think will be up. I you know. I'll i'll go just by the arraignment and i believe i'm correct that jake wagner was the first of the wagner's to be arraigned so i would bet jake and and a lot of the thought is that you know since custody. Allegedly is at the center. So as jack wagner. I was going to say that. The eldest son george wagner would be up first but wow what a shocker if jake wagner is up first because then to me. There's no question that his involvement with the rodents center of these trials at the bare minimum. Whether he did or did not do it. That one piece would follow all of the trials i would imagine. Reach out to us on. Our social media outlets with questions were an instagram facebook and twitter at piketty massacre. We look forward to answering questions in upcoming episodes Pectin massacres executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker. The piped-in massacre is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to. Your favorite shows management concepts delivers the training federal employees need for every stage of their career over two hundred. Seventy five courses taught online and in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership and acquisition courses available for two thousand and twenty one management concepts dot com. Love can make you stupid so think smart about her dream diamond before you take the plunge visit moves diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is the region's first choice. At mervyn's you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and with a leading designer rings from tacoma and verragio. You'll know why move was honored by washington post as best place to buy a diamond. Check our reviews at movers. Diamond dot com again. 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jeff winkler wagner jake wagner sophia jeff George wagner jake hannah Lost hills Las hills courtney armstong Wagner rod esa corey abraham stephanie Pike Jake wagner jake walk Charlie gilly
Episode 3- Wagner vs. Wagner

The Piketon Massacre

46:17 min | 4 months ago

Episode 3- Wagner vs. Wagner

"It's all about getting the most out of summer and with certified refurbished from ebay. You can enjoy one hundred percent of summer with up to fifty percent savings on top brands. Plus a fifteen percent off coupon through memorial day so tackle your to do list and break out the playlist. Life new products from the brands. You love we're talking goes works. I robot and more all at up to fifty percent savings now through memorial day. Get an extra fifteen percents off coupon to save even more with certified refurbished shop memorial day savings at ebay today. I'm dr lori enters. I'm a psychology professor at yale. And i started to notice that a lot of my students weren't all that happy so i created a new class longtime everybody to psychology and the good life. But it's not just my student who need to understand the science of well being and that's why we launched the happens lab so you can learn about two. Are you ready to feel happier. Head to the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or if you like to listen brought to you by discover- discover something writer. Welcome to the pike and massacre production of iheartradio and katie studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a visceral standpoint when he heard the news that this kid had rolled over on this case one thing. That kind of came to mind from me is kind of envisioned. His mother in a almost a a mob barker kind of way that she's kind of the puppet master that's controlling everything you sitting there all along and suddenly he has this lucid moment where he's out from under the thaw and he realizes i'm going to get the needle for all of this. This is the pectin massacre return to pike county season two episode three wagner versus wagner and knee armstrong a television producer at katy studios with stephanie. Lydecker and jeff shane on april twenty. Second twenty twenty one. Jake wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated murder charges in the rodent family massacre as part of his plea deal he implicated his mother angela wagner father billy wagner and brother george wagner as co-conspirators in the killings also agreeing to testify against his parents and brother were also charged in these murders. Here's reporter and net levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was going to do this. So it's it's a pretty stunning development to see. Jake widener the youngest of the entire family. Who would you would think would be. you know. Maybe the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest but to see him just break away from his family. I don't know it's pretty interesting. The significance of jake wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated but what does it mean. Moving forward in criminal defense attorney. Mike allen told stephanie that could signal an impending legal chess match in terms of jake wagner's admission of guilt. I'm just curious about what that means. Altogether he's confessed to killing five of the eight rodents personally. Is he trying to save himself or trying to save his family. you know. obviously you know if he did five out of eight you still have three left and you know it'll come out who who actually did the killing on those other three but was probably a strategic move on the prosecutors part not to let that out yet and you know prosecutors not gonna show his cards or in this case she and when she's got three other defendants to try so they're still going to hold it close to the vast. I think stephanie asked reporter james pilcher if they were still moves left for jake to play. Is it possible that he'll say that jake could say. I was in a very controlling environment. My mother angela wagner controlled us. My father was a bully and said i had to do these things and we were coerced into it. Is there any value in that. Even i mean that's entirely possible and some of the reporting. That's what we've heard cow. The other thing i will say is that the they're going after bigger game than jake and they figured we'll cut this deal now. He'll give us what we want. And then we can go get the mom and the dad but clearly they were going after the people who plotted this was not jake's idea rate or at least not according to the prosecutors. This was the family coming together. That's what the prosecutors are. After is that okay. We get jake the help us. We get jake to plead out. It shows that this really did happen now. We can go after the people who actually landed on april twenty eighth just six days after jake. Wagner's hearing his accused brother. George wagner walked into the pike county courthouse first court. Hearing since last week's surprise plea deal in the pike county murder. Trials took place today. This hearing for george wagner was supposed to center on a few defensive oceans involving discovery evidence and net levy was on the scene that day. She spoke to producer chris graves. Kikinda described the mood and what was going on. The mood was a lot lighter than it had been in the past the rodent family. The little bit. That i saw that and they just seemed happy for the first time in a long time and i think i saw hannah kelly's mother and she actually seemed happy. They can start to finally look so it was just a a much lighter mood. But you know george the fourth. Obviously it wasn't later made for him. He looked very stressed to look very thin. He doesn't look you can see it on. Its face in the aftermath of jake. Wagner's shocking confession. Many wondered how accused older brother. George wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at length about george in the last two episodes. It was at his wedding that the last known picture of the roden and wagner families was taken also george and his ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues. that would foreshadow. What would happen between victim. Hannah roden and jeff wagner his lawyer. Rick nash has been very assertive and maintain that george the fourth there was no case against him. There was no evidence against him but now he's kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit. I think and realize that there may be some really good evidence tying his client to this and ocean hearing was per like all these boilerplate death penalty missions. Death penalty is off the table. Now people following the case wondered would george wagner strike. A plea deal as well. My opinion of george. The fourth is that he's kind of is the weakest link in his family because he's got the most to lose. He has a son who he loves dearly and he wants to be with his son and so i was wondering what storage going to do instead of a guilty plea. The court heard something far less dramatic in five minutes for george do the fourth to ask for more time to evaluate the situation. No judge. I don't think so. I think everybody agreed. That given recent events aggravate needs to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an agreement to reschedule the motion for june twenty first. Twenty twenty one. Though there were no bombshell developments. It's clear that the next few weeks will be pivotal. George wagner and has accused parents angela and billy wagner must now decide how they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible. That now that jake took the plea deal and admitted to the murders that we may see billy angela and or george doing the same thing. I think it's possible that the others could plead out but at the same time what's the point. And they have nothing to lose by going to trial because they either plead get life in prison or they rolled the dice and go to trial. Maybe they can hang jury as my gallon points out. There's no one case. That assures a conviction. Is there any version of this. Where one of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent. I it's possible. Yeah i mean it it just it all depends on what the individual juries wanna wanna do. Yeah i mean that's very possible and it's happened on trials that whether to defendants that have been severed where is found guilty and the other one is not. You know different. Juries are different. And it'll be a different jury for every one of these trials and you lawyers will tell you Especially criminal lawyers. You never know what is going to happen with the jury. And i've been at this for forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I don't know why but they are but an answer to your question. Yeah that's a possibility. Last episode we heard bureau of criminal investigation agent ryan scheider testify about the wagner's family dynamic. We're very close live together. They've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled. They home school together. They raise their kids together. Everything is done together as well as we have an informant. Who says every decision within that family is made a family decision without any of the other. Wagner's coming forward with plea deals. There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered about the family that is alleged to have carried out. Ohio's most notorious crime. It's worth noting that while jake wagner pleaded guilty angela billy and george wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state is kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy had their earn role. They had their own kind of part to play. And you know it's going to be interesting to see how strong the evidence is to support their assertion that each person had a role in this conspiracy. At this point one thing is clear jake wagner holds the fate of his family and his hands and the united front the wagner family has built is beginning to erode how it will all unfold is anyone's guess. We don't know exactly what jake said. And how he said we just know that he confessed and led them to evidence. So they're still a lot we don't know based on what the prosecution outlined in court so let's take a look at the evidence we know about based on what we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years. One of the most informative was a hearing for accused. Brother george wagner that took place on august thirty first twenty twenty that day georgia's attorneys requested that he be allowed to post bail arguing that there was no evidence to tie him to the case and net levy was at the pike county courthouse. That day. it was actually a fool's errand because in the state of ohio someone charged with aggravated murder. In which the death penalty aside can be held without bail automatically. There's really no question about it. So they were kind of wanting to. I think get some more information about the evidence in the case and the bci agent on the case elite agent ryan scheider took the stand and answered a series of questions about the evidence in the case that they have against george burns. See that special agent ryan scheider of the bureau of criminal investigation taking his oath in court during the hearing. George wagner's attorney tried to distance his client from the crime and his accuse family his attorney headset. Something to the effect of the evidence. You know if it tied anybody to us. It was jake and angela. Not george what texts were digital communications. Find to or from him. You think is relevant specifically about text messages with george. I don't remember any. Did you collect the cell phone from george. I don't believe we ever collected georgia. Where connection does george has to do with that laptop. The device was registered to jake specifically. Angela seemed to be the primary user of that but there was some evidence that implicated george wagner along with his brother. Jake and the crimes one of the most striking parts of agent schneider's testimony had to do with the type of guns used in homicides reno the three calibers of firearms were used these murders and they were a twenty two caliber. Long rifle and thirty caliber. Cider went on to make direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings found at victims dana. Roden and frankie rodents homes and the property owned by the wagner family. Here's agent scheider. Being questioned by prosecutor. Angie canepa we recovered twenty two caliber shell casings and where we recovered. Those at two sixty peterson road. Which was property that was owned by george wacker and his brother jake. Aided were those showcasing submitted to the lab for comparison to shop that have been recovered from both frankie's daynuss residents ear. And what was the opinion of the the weapon that fired this shell casings at two sixty peterson. road also fired the shell casings. At amazon and dina's residents wellspring. He and hannah gillies residents so the same firearm had fired on the same properties said he exact same the same firearm. Okay forensic expert joseph. Morgan explained the intricate science involved. In tying shell casing back to a specific on the inside of a handgun like this is got rifling that means it's got lands which kind of flat plateau looking formations and also because these are soft metal brass casings. That are being ejected. Once the round is fired you have referred to extraction marks. This spent case in at least these little marks that are unique to the interior housing of this particular weapon. And even you can have a weapon. That rolls also lawn with fifty other weapons. That are the same same model. But they're all going to be unique at a microscope and that's how they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. Another suspicious item was found during a different search of the same wagner property. The police some went back and they found what the atf says was likely used as a homemade silencer for a gun. Agent scheider elaborated a mag lite flashlight. Turn into suppressor adapter. One in that is a solid adapter. It closed in and the at the other end who had They threat adapter. And it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm. But it can easily be converted into a suppressor. They determined that suppressor as defined by federal statute then fired at least one time because they could see april strike inside the suppressor now. It's pretty interesting because that wasn't found that was found in. I think october of twenty eighteen right before the indictments came out and that property. The peterson road home had been searched in may of two thousand seventeen when i hear that it sounds like someone told him about it. We know jake lead them to the gun. Is the murder weapons. The car used purchase the news. And so who knows maybe during cross examination by george. Wagner's attorney agent scheider highlighted some of the other evidence. The state has george including wiretap surveillance could approximates to the nearest hundred. How many hours you had regarding this recording of george wet hours not really but i would say over one hundred hundred days or days and so i want you to focus on those hundred days and maybe your answer but i'm gonna ask you to dip away. Could you tell us over that. One hundred days of recording george wagner would statement. He made you recorded that ties into this case. I mean he never confessed if that's what you're getting at but he may incriminating statements at a different hearing george wagner appeared in court for an unusual request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's deaths speaking with my gallon. What about george wagner asking for solitary confinement. What do you make of that is stated. Recent was that he wanted to be able to study the bible in peace. That's a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary a lotta times although they may not say it. They're asking for that because they've been threatened and you know they wanna make sure that there is safe as they can be in jail. It's hard to. It's hard to know what's going through his head. But i mean either. He's immersing himself in the holy bible. Somebody saying that they're going to do something to him. Either way i is mental state is probably not good but when i read that i kind of wondered is that the real reason i mean you know you just have to wonder what the motivation has. Since his arrest in two thousand. Eighteen accused father billy wagner has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy wagner's attorney has been very adamant that there's no evidence there's no case against billy wagner but there's nothing they have nothing that ties him to this last year billy wagner made an audacious move to separate himself from the other members of his family and move his trial forward. He took it upon himself to file a motion court. It has to do with his right to what's referred to as a speedy trial and ohio procedural rules stipulating that anyone charged with a felony must be brought to trial within two hundred and seventy days of their arrest while accused father billy wagner had initially waived his right to a speedy trial it seems he suddenly had a change of heart. The heart received a handwritten motion from billy wagner asking that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and that he was draw his waiver of the speedy trial right. He was pretty frustrated. I guess that he's sitting in jail. He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this to the courts that it was some fairly good jailhouse lawyer assuming he had somebody in the jail. Hendrick this for him and his attorneys. They became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew it immediately. Mike allen gave us his professional opinion on. Billy's homespun legal strategy. I don't care how small your jail is. You're gonna have jailhouse lawyers and criminal. Defense attorneys instruct their clients. Do not listen to the jailhouse lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about if they did. They wouldn't be where they are. So that's every criminal defense lawyers. Worst nightmare is when your client files of motion without consulting the eternity It's a very stupid thing to do. So i'd only wagner's lawyer. I'm sure probably add some strong words for him for doing that. While billion george wagner been busy filing legal motions to help their cases. the same can't be said about accused. Mother angela wagner bob. Cray pence is what you would call. You know another. I share on this case for her defense team. And he's been very It's been very quiet on that front. However angelo wagner has appeared in court for other reasons at a hearing in twenty nineteen judge randy deering revoked angelo wagner's mail and phone privileges after she was caught trying to discuss k. Strategy with her family. Here's her lawyer. Speaking in court that day which stipulated that tashi was fact. I started this contact co-defentats this case on his team nationals out of this wasn't information violation of that wiley or some of angela wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by agent scheider georgia's bail hearing last year. He testified about shoeprints that were found at a few of the crime scenes. This evidence points directly to angela wagner's role in the conspiracy. It's eighty nine. These are the impression that were lifted from chris. Rogan seniors residents are hsun passes that are later determined to be as specific shoe that is determined to be sold by correct in. Did you ultimately executed a search warrant up on stage formula. Just you describe what you were searching. There were two pickup trucks and re trailers were at that location that belonged to the wagner. Family finance yes. We did was walmart receipt. And and and jake specifically in a tub marked important things or something. What was the significance in seat so the walmart receipt is for the waverley ohio walmart on emma avenue it is dated april seventh twenty sixteen timestamped sixteen fifty eight hours on their. There are the purchase of two athletic brand tennis shoes which is consistent with the shoes that we were looking for. And you indicated that the angeles told me a statement to your fellow agents that she purchased those shoes specifically for jacob george correct and you were asked if you recover those shoes if you found shoes You did not react in. Isn't it true to the interest That she had thrown those shoes away very same day that she bought them because wasted life issues. Correct but jd. George told they deny knowledge shoes. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a still looking from home. The dining room chair is still a pain in the back or neck right. I'm reese jones a designer at human scale with leading makeup of economic office chairs and the problem with most chaz. Is you have to conform to them. That's why human scale. We developed a new kind of chat with a built in mechanism at automatically adjusts to your body. Let you work comfortably. Elevate your work from home. Setup with a human scale chat for a limited time you can use the code home hato me to save twenty percent on all about jazz at human scale dot com. The shipping is free and you can try it for thirty days. If you don't love it send it back to us. And we'll pay for the return so remember human scale dot com code word home to save twenty percent human scale making work even from home more comfortable. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it using in-depth genetic analysis in real time bloodwork forwards top-rated. Doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plans to help guide you to achieving long-term health with forward you get unlimited in person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com Altogether it appears. The prosecution has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the wagner. Family here is agent. Scheider telling george wagner's attorney just how much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. What reports you have that you feel are relatives working some evidence here. In this case we have approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the biker individuals family. You know we also have interviews where i feel there was incriminating. Statements made within the interviews. If got wiretaps in this case they have video surveillance evidence they have you know countless interviews with people the prosecution has said you know. This is a voluminous file. They've said it's takes up terabytes and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space on a computer. So that gives you an idea of what they've gathered the sheer volume of evidence shocked even seasoned my gallon here. He is talking to jeff. You as an expert is that a high amount is a normal amount of evidence. No that's that's just astronomical. I would not have expected to be that high. It's not normal at all according to investigative reporter jodi bar george and the other accused wagner's could have implicated each other without even knowing what we don't know is whether the wagons gave statements and what status they made to investigators before during or after the charge. We don't know what the contents of any intercepted phone calls. Does they've been in jail. A mike beings who knows what the state of ohio has is far as whether states may one wagner could almost assure a conviction of another. So how could we see the legal battles. Play out in the courtroom. If the wagner's aside to go to trial as stands billy angela and george wagner have all been charged with eight counts of aggravated murder if convicted. They like jake will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never have i seen anything even remotely close to this case. I've been involved in some bad ones but this one is by far the worst one of many things. That's so unique about this. Offense is you do have generations of family members just taken out completely. Excuse hard to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one. It's just it's so unique in so many ways. One of them is the enormous burden. Trials will place on the legal teams and the ohio criminal justice system. You're trying occasion in the small county with limited resources. I i don't know how they're going to do it. It's just gonna be a logistical nightmare. Can the wagner lawyers work together on the defense or does it all have to be separate. They can work together and that happens. Sometimes when you have co-defendants. I think at some point you've run into some strategy problems but to a certain extent they can but the lawyer Obviously have to represent is client. But if it's in this clients best interest to work with the other lawyers. Yeah a definitely would witness testimony could also prove to be a challenge. You're going to have witnessed burnout. Because many most probably the witnesses in one trial will be witnesses in the other. And you know that's a that's a burden. Upon the witnesses prosecution has no choice they have to go forward and nature and other obstacle seating a jury of twelve impartial pike county residents. Here's chris speaking to reporter james pilcher. It's ohio state law that you initially have to try and see the jury in the county. The crime was committed correct so angela wagner has already requested that her trial be moved out of pike county but under high legal procedures. You have to try the jury in the county where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it so they've got a toll from a jury pool of registered voters narrow it down to twelve plus a couple alternates and that process can take anywhere from three days to a week depending on the complexity of the case. I mean that's going to be really difficult isn't it. I mean there's only. I think what twenty seven twenty eight thousand residents and all of pike county. You have to pick jers for faces out of a jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to see them. Have to move some of these trials to another county again. Here's my gallon. That's probably the judges Biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able to seek separate juries. That can't be fair both to the state into the defense. 'cause i think you'd be hard pressed to find any county in the state of ohio. That just was not inundated with media coverage about this It's important to keep this in mind. If a potential sure says under oath that yes. I have seen things in the media about this but i can divorce myself from those things and render a fair and impartial verdict based upon the the evidence that we see from the witness stand testimony and the instructions given by the judge. That's been a good and acceptable juror. And that's the only way that this case is gonna work. Because i unless you're living in some kind of cave. I don't care who you are. You've heard about it and you know you just not going to be able to seat a jury of twelve in any of these cases where they've not heard anything about how our each of the case is likely to affect the other. Are there things that we should be keeping an eye on the first one that goes. I've been kissed the top rope and the guy going last or next to last They're gonna have an advantage. By knowing which way the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of that nature. They'll had the benefit of of watching the tape so to speak like like football coach would but there could be one overlooked factor that determines the outcome of the cases. The drive of the prosecuting attorneys. When you see a case like this and see the position these these young kids have been put in. What does that make you feel when you see cases like this. It's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just know that that is going to permanently affect that child. There's no way that it couldn't prosecutors driven by justice for the victim and the victim's family but if you had a particularly violent and heinous crime like you have here it's tough as a prosecutor. Honestly it makes you wanna work all the harder to get a conviction and yeah. That's just the way it is. No we've heard special agent ryan scheider mentioned witnesses. Who were close to the wagner's and excerpts of his testimony since jake wagner's confession. We haven't heard anything from grandmother of the accused frederico wagner last season. We talked about how she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges pretending to bulletproof vests she purchased for her son. Billy wagner ship. Purchase the best for him to use in the killings. Her charges were dropped. After hearing and twenty nineteen as the prosecution feared not being able to try the case before the two hundred and seventy days speedy trial statute but hasn't closed yet fredrika. They've they've indicated in court documents that they may charge her again with obstruction. Frederico adner has vehemently defended her family's innocence but is it possible that she knows more about what happened. The night of i twenty sixteen and she's lead on depending on what jake wagner knows and reveals. It's possible that grandmother frederico wagner could be looking at new charges. Do you know what jake pleading guilty. How that will impact his grandmother. Well they can always be Reindicted if there's additional new evidence he kinda seems to be like he's the key to this entire case so yeah i suppose it's possible to our knowledge. Frederico wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes nor has she made any plea deals with the prosecution but the same can't be said for the other grandmother who was charged in the case. Read a new come angelo. Wagner's mother initially told investigators that she had notarized signs some custody documents for the child that jacob and hannah shared in the event that they died but then later as her trial approached on the day of trial all of the sudden. We were all out there. Ready to go and the trial was cancelled and then short time later. She pleaded guilty and in court. The prosecution outlined how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied in that her daughter. Angela had asked her to lie. About signing a notarized those custody documents. Here's the statement. Read a new ca- made during her plea deal as anyone promised you anything at all threatened you in any way all in order to induce you to withdraw your former plea of not guilty into to the original charge of obstructing justice fifth degree felony count four and to enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of obstructing official business a misdemeanor of the second degree. Now i feel that it's not a good christian thing and i couldn't come. This is all despite angela. Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate her mother during court hearings for angela's mother read a newcomb. It was stated that angela wagner was on. Jail calls telling her mother. You don't have to testify against us. Mike allen told stephanie about the challenges read. A new testimony could present at the trials. Move forward if it's obvious to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be testifying to the state. The judge can in probably would designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile witness if the prosecution has to call a witness to establish or help one of the elements of the fans and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense In all likelihood and the judge would designate that person hostile witness giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask leading questions so it's not a matter of whether they get up on the stand and act crazy. Act like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person gonna cooperate with whoever is calling them. Another possibility is hearing from one of the long rumored informants we discussed last season. My gallon discussed the role. Informants usually play in cases. Like the wagner's are you able to mike. Just tell us what an informant is. It usually is a situation where they go to the police. With some information mean please can seek out people to and and you know just say hey you tell us what you know about this and i mean. It happens both ways but more often than not. It's it's the police know that somebody there's a good chance somebody would know something and they seek that person out but the thing of it is it. It's a confidential and reliable informant so it has to be someone that you can. You can build a case that they are reliable. At george wagner's bond. Hearing last year agent ryan scheider told the court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that the wagner family was planning carrying out it included then attorney general mike dewine pike county sheriff charles reader and scheider himself witness the testified that she was present win shores his brother jake mom and his dad were basically abe retaliation plan. Should they get arrested and charged specifically targeting myself and the wine thin sheriff reader and according to the person jesus information was that state summer. Twenty eighteenth antoinette. Levy heard agent schneider's testimony that day. I think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in this case and one of them which is very interesting happens to be a woman who married jake wagner when the family went to alaska. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. Geico knows there many reasons why you ride from the exciting adventure of the daily commute to the peace of mind that geico always has your back with twenty four seven access to claim service and legendary customer service but pamela had one reason in particular. My skin is extremely averse to most fabrics except for the soft buttery feeling of leather thankfully. I found my clan of leather lovers in the biking community. It's been life changing geigo motorcycle. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more to show you how easy it is to file a claim with geico. We hired a soap opera. Star gracious me. My car has storm damage. And i had to file. A claim couldn't possibly get worse when my claims team leave me for someone else. Someone less intense. No actually when you file a claim with geico you get your own dedicated claims team. Who promises to stay with you throughout the process. I've never known such loyalty. I can't wait for the second season. Geigo great service. Without all the drama last season we talked about the wagner. Suspicious moved to alaska in june twenty seventeen at the height of the road murder investigation. They said this had been planned for some time. The boys were looking for good jobs up there and the end jake met a woman at church. They became married and In the discovery documents that detail what was handed over by the state to the wagner attorneys. It states that there are several interviews between a bureau of criminal investigations agents and the woman that jake wagner married while he was living in alaska so there are a number of interviews with her and recorded phone calls between this woman and jake wagner. What about the witnesses who were left alive at the scene the road and children who were spared that fateful night in twenty sixteen one of the kids was a three year old toddler if that child witnessed the murder. I don't know if he said something. When the investigators came in the pointed to possibly someone in the wagner family because they would have all known each other He's eight now if he had any memory or had said something at the time when they found him is there any potentially he might be called as a witness although eight now you know high. The rule is a child under the age of ten is presumed incompetent to testify now. If a judge does what they call a dire of that potential witness and determined spat the young person does know the difference between telling the truth telling a lie. It's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy any defense attorney are gonna fight like crazy to keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability. Is it a reliable state. Can you rely on something. Three three-year-old saw something that an eight year old Years after the fact is is trying to explain. It's tough Not impossible to get a statement like that in. But i think highly unlikely mike allen pointed out compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in terms of the discovery list. That is the or something that really surprised you. The others definitely one thing says trash poll from a two thousand seventeen and that can only mean one thing that dna is involved in this case. What a trash poll is is when somebody sets their trash out at the curb. They do not have a privacy interest anymore in that trash so it's open season for the police if they want to go route through somebody's trash and that's how in many many instances that's law enforcement gets. Dna evidence is from crash. That's the thing that closes the deal right like that closes the case essentially. That's the part of the csi thing that you know jurors watch and that's one thing that's accurate. I mean if if it gets into evidence. It's just devastating another revelation. We're likely to witness at. The trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports. Though the documents were released months after the murders in two thousand sixteen they were heavily redacted due to a gag order imposed by the judge on the case just a situation where a trial judge who shepherd. These trials through fairly doesn't want the public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons being you don't want a tainted jury pool and of course boss shen. They don't want to telegraph anything from that autopsy. With respect to their strategy reporter. James pilcher told us what journalists were able to glean from the initial releases. Basically laid out where they were found. How many times were shot. You know where they were shot and you know. They live specifically where the kids. The young kids were found. So what can we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy will will tell you a lot about how the victim lived and how they died and get a critical piece of the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the killer would know but the most powerful part of the state's case could come from the prosecutors recreation of the events of april twenty first twenty sixteen according to forensics expert joseph morgan. This narrative helps give voice to each member of the slain family. It's something that will be revealing in real time. As the trials for billy angela and george wagner precede in the case of the massacre in in piked in every single human remains every body that was there has an individual tale to be told. The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here. And they're going to do that. Through these bodies there that's going to be vessel. They're going to travel through here and the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture the more effective shocks the conscience of just people that go about their normal daylight. They don't expect this type of thing to happen. And it has period more on that next time for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us instagram at kt underscore studios depicted massacre. Returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows still working from home. It's time to get a work from home. Chad fits. I'm reese jones a designer at human scale out. Chas have a built in mechanism that automatically adjust your body and let you work comfortably for a limited time. Use the code word. Ho- h o m e to save twenty percent on work from home. Chaz at human scale dot com shipping is free. And you can try it for thirty days. If you don't love it send it back to us. And we'll pay for the At human scale dot com code home to save twenty percent. If you're a small business owner growing your business is what it's all about. That is if you have the space to do it. Keep smart self. Storage has the solution with a variety of storage unit sizes helpful online resources and easy to access facilities cube. Smart self storage provides a self storage experience that puts the focus on you. Because you and your business matter most and to help you grow cube. Smart is offering up to twenty five percent off your monthly rent. Say goodbye to crowded inventory and hello to your business. 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george wagner jake jake wagner Billy wagner angela wagner wagner george ryan scheider pike county Wagner scheider bureau of criminal investigati billy angela james pilcher stephanie angelo wagner Mike allen iheartradio
Wild Country

The Piketon Massacre

32:28 min | 1 year ago

Wild Country

"To show you how easy it is to file a claim with geico. We hired a soap opera star. Gracious me my car has storm damage. And i had to file. A claim couldn't possibly get worse when my claims team leave me for someone else. Someone less intense. No actually when you file a claim with geico you get your own dedicated claims team. Who promises to stay with you throughout the process. I've never known such loyalty. I can't wait for the second season. Geigo great service without all the drama lost hills is a new podcast a mystery and idyllic malibu california when a man goes camping with his two young daughters and doesn't make it home alive after his death the cops follow crumb trail of clues and arrested survivalists. They find camping in the woods. That's when things get complicated loss. Houses is a shocking story that uncovers a dark truth about law enforcement in malibu california. Listen to las tells on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the picton massacre production of iheartradio and katie studios. This is episode ten wild country in this episode. We're going to be answering a bunch of questions. We've received over social media. We are also going to be going deeper into some subjects. We've only touched on and talking about some stories. We haven't been able to tell. I'm courtney armstrong. I work at katy studios with stephanie. Linebacker and jeff sheen just as illegal reminder angela billy jake george wagner were charged with aggravated murder angelo wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem and billy wagner's mother frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes. Innocence until guilt is proven. Allie from florida asked us about the drugs and how they relate to the case. And if there's anything else in the piked an area that pertains to drugs that we should know so one of the big theories behind the murders we explored was drugs And the fact that the rodents did have a pretty large marijuana grow operation on their property. But it's not just specific to the rodent or even specific to picked in. The immediate area is kind of a hotbed. That's been affected by drugs in myriad ways for starters. There's not a ton of jobs. And that has really taken a toll on the town and is generally speaking ohio and the southern part of the state and has been devastated by drug abuse. Mostly prescription painkillers and heroin. In pike county the drug overdose mortality rate from twenty fourteen. To twenty eighteen was more than seventy one deaths per one hundred thousand population. The rate for the rest of the country was twenty seven deaths per one hundred thousand. That's nearly three times. The mortality rate of the rest of the country a lot of these drugs. Come in from portsmouth portsmouth. Ohio is the neighboring town japan. So about a fifteen minute drive. I spoke to investigative reporter. James pelter who didn't incredibly deep dive into portsmouth into the larger picture of what's happening in southeastern ohio portsmouth which is In the next county over on the river south of pike county and piped-in is known as ground zero for the pill mental epidemic. That's pill mills and the opioid epidemic is known to have had a major hotspot early on in the late nineteen nineties early. Two thousands wenatchee con. I hit the market and tell me what a pill mill is. A pill mill is where a doctor who for. Whatever reason isn't there to see clients. Somebody who shows up and you just hands them prescription for money and then they get the prescription there and then right. Next door is a pharmacy and then they just put it in. And then those people get the pills because it's legal in that state. They might drive them home. Florida and then sell them for ten times. The price or trade them or whatever but it was unregulated in ohio. At the time and kentucky was bad to kentucky had the same issues. So right there in portsmouth right there on the ohio river bordering kentucky. So you had both sides of the river. So there were cars lined up from florida in west virginia and georgia up and down all over town for a decade and it's just ravaged the city which had already been decimated by you know the pull out of industrialization and so all of that kind of flooded in you have all of these. You know an economically depressed area. All of a sudden addiction becomes a major major issue. People are driving from all over the country because it's easy to get the pills there and then of course there's also the people who get into kind of the illicit activities to make money right absolutely absolutely a cottage industry of crime and drug associated crime kind of sprung up and you know started to do my own reporting on it. So one of our editors worked as the managing editor the portsmouth daily times. Which is the daily newspaper there in nearly twenty tens and so. He was very familiar with the rumors that had been circulating. A roundabout michael moran moran had already been a city councilman. But he wasn't on city council anymore but he was still well known within the legal circles and cheaper of commerce and he did some work. Pro bono work for about Legal defense but he always seemed to have a pretty girl in his arm. In december of twenty eighteen a now former reporter with that newspaper put out on facebook segments of a federal affidavit from the drug enforcement administration which basically laid there and put out for public viewing that's the federal law enforcement was investigating the very thing rumors that have been following moran around for years that he was running girls running drugs and that this was who he was. It's important to note that. Michael moran has not been arrested or charged with any crimes. Also that moran has categorically denied all of this my editor at the time and i was working as investigative reporter at the cincinnati enquirer would be interested in taking a look at this. And i'll be honest. I thought i didn't think it was real at first. I thought there was no way that this is as bad as as they say. It is and whatever so. I took a drive out there. They partner partner me with a Woman photographer who we went out there a couple of times and they'll never forget it. We were doing some biros few shots in front of a pseudo abandon shoe factory with graffiti about hookers and things like that and a guy comes running up and says what are you doing and i told them i said by the way you ever heard of michael marini says that guy runs women so this was not a secret in portsmouth. Everybody knew the rumors and had known somebody that knew somebody that had worked for him. It was going on that. He was running women all over the country. He was promising women drugs for sex. He had relationships with judges and with members of law enforcement all of it. So you know all of this is in the federal document we're talking about. It's a human trafficking right. Yes so so you know some people that this is an interesting distinction. Some people will say. Oh well these women know what they were doing. They were just trying to make money. Well if you talk to the experts it went one step beyond that went into trafficking because moran was holding over them a the fact that they were drug at. I've seen that. He would withhold their money or withhold their money or wherewithal to get trucks which under federal statute in ohio statute is a form of trafficking be. He was attentively promising more lenient sentences because he had friends in the legal system. I'd like to point out here that we reached out to michael moran as well as the prosecutors involved. Neither side got back to us with comment. So i talked to some folks getting those first initial people to talk. That was their big fear is they. They've these women just weren't afraid to go to jail. They were afraid for their lives and the reason they were afraid for the lives is the is the name of one woman. And that's making lancaster. Meghan was a known prostitute in the late two thousands in sierra county if you talk to her sister-in-law and you talked to other people who knew her she worked for. Mike moran meghan got hooked on drugs early on in high school shortly after high school. If you talk to her sister-in-law who has led the charge He started partying later in high school in and out of high school. And that led her into according to our sources into the circle of moran some moran would hire her out for bachelor parties and You know katie lancaster. Her sister-in-law even tell the story about her running into meghan worrying. Christmas lingerie in walmart. Picking something up on her way to a christmas party where she was the entertainment for a bunch of marines friends and she mysteriously disappeared. So we can't ever say she was murdered. Her car was founded blood on the door was left wide. Open half part in local fast food joint. Dare in downtown portsmouth and they've not found hide nor hair of her. And i can tell you. There are a lot of places in scioto county where you can hide about haulers and dips and in forests. It's it's wild country. They've really is wild country. The glaciers came through. Cut a bunch of stuff and it's it's beautiful but it's also wild country and a slew of women. Went went missing or got killed. That were addicted prostitutes Sex workers up in ross county in chillicothe which is two counties to the north since twenty ten more than a dozen women have either been killed or gone missing in ross county which is the county north of pike county which is probably an hour. Forty five minutes north of piped-in in chillicothe coffee so meghan a lot of people theorize the meghan might have been wrapped up in something that got those women killed play. There's a lot of thought. And there's a lot of Theory or rumor that no that that was separate from what happened to her and what happened to her points back to possibly michael marine that he would want to silence her for some reason. Yeah these are powerful men. Taking advantage of addicted unempowered women. And so how would you like. Michael moran in tying this back to the road incase michael moran and the situation in portsmouth. I think just speaks to this community. Which i think include piped-in as pe- you know these men in power are kind of doing what they want and when you look at sheriff reader who handled the investigation for the road and murder. He was also doing what he wanted. He now he's indicted on all these charges of Staff from the county. Yeah and so you know you can the parallel if you wanting to make a parallel to the road cases absolutely either. Hey you had ineffectual or corrupt or both law enforcement right. You had a community or a culture of lawlessness that has descended on upon many places in rural america. I will also say there's a major issue in small town. America with the quality and quantity of of law enforcement that happens there and the lack of accountability. Because nobody's watching. You might be wondering how the crimes and portsmouth fit into the road and family case while we probably know that michael moran and what's happening in portsmouth is not directly related to the murders. It does speak to distrust and lack of accountability in law enforcement. It's this idea that all these men in power from judges attorneys are involved in these crimes and their cover-ups it raises a pretty nervous question. Who do you trust if you can't trust elected officials and law enforcement. Furthermore this influx of drugs and lack of accountability from law enforcement and the haphazard way piked authorities tried to recover some seemingly very important. Evidence is basically exactly what reporter james pilcher outlined so well in his work. Yeah it seems really systemic in the area and specifically to peaked in and that impacts everything from the top. Let's stop here for quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for. David impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. Using in-depth genetic analysis and real time bloodwork forwards top-rated. Doctors provide you with in depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. 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We'd heard from people along the way that hadn't made it into the podcast and here are a few that stand out to us. The relationship between frederico wagner and angela wagner her daughter-in-law has been the basis of a lot of conversation that it was a troubled relationship and that angela and her husband were vicious fighters and we even have heard from a very close source. That angelo would actually have to put a little sedative and billy wagner shakes every day because that would lower his temper and that's how she would survive the day. It just paints a picture whether this is true or not here. Angela enters the wagner family. She's feuding with her now. Mother-in-law the matriarch of the family frederica her husband. I don't know how tall he actually is. But he's a tall presence of a man and allegedly hot tempered so angela is trying to survive this new dynamic. Homeschooling her boys and sedating her husband's and feuding with her mother-in-law. It just paints a very complicated picture it does. And because i can be pedantic of allegedly drugging or allegedly but other stuff. We did here. Because i spoke to the same person who was a family member someone who was a family. This is apparently first hand account correct and part of that which i thought also painted such an interesting picture was like you said. The owners were known fairly widely to have get into it with fights and what this source said to us was that she was at the family home at the wagner family home and she commented that angela had very many decorative baskets all over and she said those who very beautiful and angela allegedly said well every time we get into a fight and billy needs to apologize. He buys me another basket. Because i like him. And so just picturing this house filled with decorative baskets each one emblematic of an argument. Just an interesting picture. Here's a rich question. And it comes from aaron from malvern new york and she asks how to sheriff reader play into the investigations and how mighty play into the upcoming court trials. He complicates this. I mean he's been accused of many things in court documents filed just last month. They alleged leader of misappropriating about fifteen thousand dollars and cease funds and borrowing six thousand dollars from employees which can be seen as coercion. The records also accused him of circumventing rules at auctions to improperly get impounded vehicles for his family so to his benefit additionally the court alleges that reader on june two thousand seventeen seized seven thousand dollars that prosecutors call quote possible proceeds of drug trafficking so these are charges that have gone for several years. And there's even new allegations that charge him and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity which is a first degree. Felony and prosecutors have long used the charges a way to attack organized crime figures and major drug dealers by seeking long prison sentences. So the fact that they're using this against a sheriff is interesting strategy. You know the issue is now that his character is being called into question. And according to sources we've talked to the criminal. Justice experts agree that the re that if reader is found of any wrongdoing it could pose obstacles for the prosecution in the trials against the wagner's reader was the front man of making everybody feel at ease. The investigation was being handled but frankly was kind of doing a message from the jump. Yeah i mean in theory you could look at. Every single case sheriff reader took the lead on and wonder what he was doing behind the scenes in order to make an arrest which would include the rodent investigation on the other side of that. Though you know what experts are saying is that the prosecution might argue to the judge on the case that readers criminal history isn't relevant to the wagner trials and shouldn't be heard by a jury and they'll do that by downplaying his role in the investigation and that becomes the case. Then it won't necessarily be a a death blow to the state's case. Another expert was quoted as saying in the press. Officers are human beings like everybody else. And so sometimes juries can weigh in on that and decide what kind of credence they want to give to. His behavior share frieder potentially jeopardize the investigation by having the rodents cars and mobile homes moved off site which attorney mike allen and investigative reporter jodi bar talked about an episode five so sheriff readers involvement is far reaching and it has the potential to affect in multiple ways. Not only during the investigation but moving forward with the trials yet. There was something else early on in the investigation that happened. That really did cause a star and that's the road an autopsy reports and for some reason. These were held up in being released to the media outlets which is something that happens occasionally in criminal cases but it garnered a lot of attention specifically with the wrote and case. Probably the reason why is oftentimes. Autopsies are not released to the public because there might be a tell or something very significant in those autopsy reports for example. This is just top of head not related to the wagner or in case at all if somebody had a certain tattoo marking or had been cut in a certain way that only the perpetrator slash killer would know then. Authorities don't want that information to be wildly known because it's something that would be helpful to know if there was a confession for example so if somebody confessed they would know that information so that is not entirely uncommon although in this case it seems that was not the reason. Why yet speculated that. It's not the reason why in this is this one actually all the way up to the ohio supreme court to outlets the columbus dispatch and the cincinnati enquirer sued the state for the right to the autopsies. The suit was filed against the pike. County coroner david kessler and that came after the dispatch was denied three separate times officially asking for the final autopsy reports. And what the dispatches claim was that the final autopsy reports are of great public interest and quote significant value to the dispatch and our news gathering activities authorities. Really were active to release the autopsy information. Arguing that the release could hinder the investigation. I wonder just too hard on this longer. Like wha what was the city like what was pike county really trying to protect in a four three times seems like a lot of times to continue to fight the release of this and now that we know what they say like what in there was so damning to the investigation. You know it's just seems like a lot. Well i actually spoke. With attorney jack rainier and he was one of the lawyers who filed the suit on behalf of the dispatch and he had some really compelling thoughts. You have to kinda wonder. In light of the troubled sheriff baltimore he got into what was motivating desire to keep things quiet because this is a pretty good example of in my view law enforcement overreacting and i say that kind of cautiously because you know it was multiple murders and a gruesome situation by. I think the idea of You know you just have to withhold as much information as you possibly can from the public and even maybe more information than you're allowed to With hall is to me an overreaction. And i think we saw that in this case you know that somehow you know of any piece of information out there somehow derail the whole investigation. I just i don't buy into that. The enquirer really argued that it was in the public's best interest to know what the topsy said and to review. I mean what we learned from. The autopsies is pretty important in terms of what happened to the road ends. We learned how many times they were shot. Where they were shot really did speak to how personal the crimes were. some of. These family members were shot multiple times in the face with a shotgun and so this was a drug cartel head. you know. it wasn't once and quick. It was personal and it was an overkill. Which is what we learned from the autopsies. When these autopsies would be released here we go again more questions with few answers and sure enough. That's exactly what happened. Thankfully we have this information and we could actually look at these autopsy reports in great detail. And i can speak for myself saying it was really dark and twisted when you really do see just how much to your point. Jeff of an overkill. This really was. Yeah it made me think. Like what releasing. This autopsy would do to the town of piked in in speaking to a fair amount of the residents and just the feeling of uncertainty. I don't know how it would if it was a good thing or bad thing. Because the people in piped-in we're thinking it was a drug cartel who did this Prior to the autopsy release and that created a sense of fear. But then i think after the autopsies release people started circling in on the wagner's and really thinking they did it which created a whole other set of problems in terms of this kind of small town justice that the wagner's faced whether they deserve it or not Creates a whole new problem for the sheriff's office who let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment after all that planning it's happening. Diy closet renovation is finally becoming a reality question is where do you put your while. You work cubes. Smart has you covered with month to month. Leases and self storage solutions that make it easier to get organized online or in person getting self storage is convenient and fast and because diy renovations can easily go over budget. It's great to keep smart is offering up to twenty five percent off your monthly rent singing by two before and hello to after with qb. Smart self storage visit cube smart dot com for more details. Love can make you stupid so think smart about her dream diamond before you take the plunge visit movers. Diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices moves. Diamond is the region's first choice. At mervyn's you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and the leading designer rings from tacori verragio. You'll know why. Movers was honored by washington. Post as best place to buy a diamond. Check our reviews at movers. Diamonds dot com again. That's modus diamond dot com. So we were talking about the informant which we've covered in the past. But i know there's been some other questions out there so woody from komax. New york asked us on social media about the likelihood that the informant is in fact one of the wagner. Four i'm obsessed with understanding more about informant personally so you definitely think it must be a family. Member who turned must is a strong statement. I think the likelihood i think it seems likely only because if this family allegedly did commit this careful careful planned out murders that they spent months planning why would they then be so careless and have someone else involved enough with the information that they could turn states evidence so to me it says if they kept it all within the family the necessarily it would have to be someone in the family. It's unknowable at this point. But that's what makes sense to me. Is it possible that it's rita angela. Wagner's mother because she would have been witnessed as some of these conversations. I mean it's possible that it's any of them assuming it's one of the four. Let's just play this out for a second. If courtney if you're correct in it's one of the four of the wagner's that are the accused to me. If one of them was going to fold george. The eldest son seems the most likely. And for that i say simply because he had the least amount of skin in the game if he wasn't fighting for his niece solely you know he wasn't. You know maybe supercharged by love. The way jake wise. He was in supercharged about protecting his children. The way angela may be was about her son jake in her granddaughter. We know the dads potentially had some sort of a confrontation leading up that could be charged by emotion. But that said he turns now. He's the one asking for solitary confinement and a bible the fact that they were trying to get george wagner off on bail very recently. That would speak to this as well. That as the informant be just through the basic ways that you would be released from prison on bail. They made that attempt. It was unsuccessful on the behalf of the defense but that is interesting strategy. By the way how shocking would this be if george wagner. The eldest son had to actually appear in court and testify against his mother and his father and his younger brother. Jake that would be shocking so while it is all speculation it is all possible and several reputable sources have said. It's not the most unlikely thing just as illegal reminder angela billy jake george wagner were charged with aggravated murder angela. Wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem and billy wagner's mother frederica work both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes. Innocence until guilt is proven. Jody bar who we heard from throughout the course of this. Podcast is summed up. Well how the three of us feel about this case. So this is a case it i think about it. I'm pretty sure every day in again. That's why i'm very eager to hear from. I just wanna see this trial. I want to know more about what happened here. In if they really do. Have the right people. Sales like they do. These indictments are very linked to very detail. But that's only one side of this. I want to hear from the wagner's and see if they have an explanation because at the end of the day when when this the last trial is held in the jury gets to that point you know i would hope that the rodents family can walk out of that courtroom and know for sure that the people who did this are the people who go to prison for it. I can't think of a better way to Him down justice We've talked about this a lot. People ask why we work in crime investigations. In general i think truth is victims. Have a voice even after death and for us we really do want to share our deepest sympathy with the rodent family. I think the point of this podcast is to really angle towards shining light on the injustices that the rodent family faced and help bring a sense of closure in answers to the surviving rodent family. Well i think also in the wagner's finally do have their day in court. Our hope is that the rodents finally see justice. Massacre is executive produced by stephanie. Decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound designed by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker. The piped-in massacre is a production of iheartradio. Kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A management concepts deliver the training federal employees need for every stage of their career over two hundred seventy five courses taught online and in classrooms by expert instructors new leadership and acquisition courses available for two thousand and twenty one management concepts dot com. Love can make you stupid so think smart about dream diamond before you take the plunge visit. Movers diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds. At fair prices moves. Diamond is the region's first. Choice at murders receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy and with a leading designer rings from tacori verragio. You'll know why service was honored by washington post as best place to buy a diamond. Check our reviews at moves. Diamond dot com again. That's movers diamond dot com.

portsmouth michael moran moran pike county Michael moran ohio cincinnati enquirer wagner angela billy jake george wagne geico Joe nukem meghan billy wagner iheartradio Geigo kentucky katie studios courtney armstrong katy studios jeff sheen
Episode 6- The Investigation

The Piketon Massacre

36:15 min | 1 year ago

Episode 6- The Investigation

"We've all got a lucky friend. The one who wants a big new tv boom suddenly that tv's on sale. Some people always seem to get the best opportunities or the best deals. Well now some people are people at. At and t. because and t.'s giving all their customers both new and existing the same great deals. That's right everybody can get in on great. At and t. Deals all the time visit att dot com slash best deals to learn more restrictions. Apply i'm dr lori centers. I'm a psychology professor. Yale and i started to notice that a lot of my students were all that happy. So i created a new class longtime everybody to psychology bias. But it's not just my student to understand the science of well being and that's why we launched the happen slab so you can learn about it too. Are you ready to feel happier. Head to the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or have you liked to listen brought to you by discover- discover something writer. Welcome to the pike and massacre a production of iheartradio and katie studios. It's been one year. Since eight members of the rodent family were found murdered in pike county now surviving members of the family released of leave for information a year after eight members of the royal family were ruthlessly gunned down in their homes. Ohio authorities are on a relentless search for the killers. Eight hundred tips have been called it to police commitment to the people of by counting fat day. For not leaving until we solve the many different facets of law enforcement collaborated to crack the case. The people that carried it out. Were trying to do everything they could to make sure that they didn't get caught. Law enforcement officials began tracking down a series of leads that point them to another group of potential suspects. The wagner's the wagon shop and local walmart's regulation magazine cliff and materials to build brass catcher. According to the case indictment the wagner's began conducting. What seems to be almost like reconnaissance on the rodin's you mean a camera with their with connected. Something still to this day wonder why she mentioned that. And why that conversation wasn't allowed to go any further to revelations lead those closest to the family questioning their innocence. He was upset that because she had been murdered or what he had said he done it. This is the pike massacre episode six the investigation in this episode. We're going to dive into law enforcement's investigation into the road and murders how the wagner's allegedly pulled off this gruesome massacre. And why. I'm courtney armstrong and i work at kt studios with stephanie. Lie decker and jeff shame. We produced a documentary about the case for nbc universals oxygen network and twenty nineteen and have been following the evolution of the investigation since then to understand the crime and the possible motivation of the family. That may have committed it. We want to look at the months. Leading up to the murders authorities movements after by any objective standard was a long arduous investigation. Spending two full years during that time many different facets of law enforcement the fbi the da. The pike county sheriff's office and the ohio bureau of criminal investigation all collaborated to crack the case. Please received over eleven hundred tips. They conducted over five hundred interviews tested about seven hundred pieces of evidence Serve close to two hundred search orange subpoenas and other things so this was something that was huge. That's my gallon. A defense attorney former ohio county prosecutor and legal analyst for cincinnati news station fox nineteen the attorney general to wine at the time said it was a pretty sophisticated operation in the people that that carried it out. Were trying to do everything they could to make sure that they didn't get caught. Attorney general dewine and sheriff reader. They both said that the investigation was going to be a long process and boy sure has played out that way. But how exactly did investigators circle in. On the wagner's the suspects and eventually compile enough evidence to make arrests in previous episodes. We discussed some of the conflicts between the wagner's and the rodin's in twenty sixteen. There was a custody battle between jake wagner and hannah roden and a physical altercation between billy wagner and chris and senior it seemed like the relationship between the two families was reaching a fever pitch in the months leading up to the murders but these two families didn't always have such ill will towards one another. Here's journalist jeff winkler early on People wanted to paint the feud between the roads and wagner's as something like Hatfield mccoys excuse. It was sort of hills of appalachia backwoods and thing but it really wasn't like that right like people like to say the hatfields and mccoys. But i think they were probably closer and friendlier than that version of it right. Yeah i mean the fact. They were split. Time between the two houses The fact that the actress in the area for a long time as well just as the romans had they just you had to families who were Intertwined by both blood and work. We got some more intimate. Observations from d'auray she's billy wagner colin and frederica wagner's niece d'auray spoke to jeff about how she saw the relationship between her family and the rodents. Do you know anything about billy. And chris wrote and senior. I ant said that they were very good friends and of course he was the grandfather of sofia. And so was billy billy. sophia's grandfather. I mean it's like their inlaws. The related i mean there two grandfathers at the same little girl. She's adorable angela dana. I got along in the same way. It looked to me like they were clearly ding along and she never said anything. Bad about the rodents never spoke one negative thing about just about the children about. They went fishing. And they're over at frederick and you know small talk for normal talk you have with another mom about raising kits right exactly and it's just like that's all it is is just family talk. We of course know that. Hannah and jack wagner had an intense relationship but through the ups and downs most would say they were in love and their relationship brought the two families together. Here's producers stephanie. When we started doing our research. I personally became a bit obsessed with better understanding the intersection between these two families and really struggle with the motivation. What could possibly cause one family. The wagner's to allegedly murder eight people that they knew so well. They knew them intimately. In fact. we came across a photograph taken in two thousand twelve at george wagner the eldest son's wedding and the rodents and the wagner's are both in this photo seemingly so happy the only person not there is dana wrote in and she said to maybe be taking the photo because she later posted on her myspace page. But it's mind blowing. The people in the photo do not look like killers. Posting with there would be victims but sharp enough in four years. The majority of the people in this picture would be dead and the others would be standing trial for their deaths throughout the series. We've been talking to a relative of the wagner's who's chosen to remain anonymous. She spoke to jeff about her family's reaction in the wake of the road murders. What was the feeling like in the family after dot happened all an upset because it was the mother of her granddaughter. She was just really sad. You know that. That had happened. And i talked to jake tell like i'm so sorry you know like if anything i can do. Please tell me angela. She did ask me At one point probably about a month after The murders having. If i come down and pick up the and jake and takes afia to a friend's house and i did and in that time we need j. humor in the car and he was an absolute wreck and of course i did not. I didn't know how to react. I didn't know what asked him. I didn't know what to say. i was kind of. Just let him have his moment and he was absolutely devastated. I mean he couldn't talk. He couldn't breathe. He was having someone attacking my car. And i'm like oh my gosh you know. I don't know what to say. Fill course when. I find out that they were wants to done this I keep thinking back that you know in the car. And i'm like oh my gosh like i know he was upset but was he upset for You know the right. Was he that. Because she had been been murdered or what he had done it and he knew. I don't know it was just an awful eerie. Feeling it really truly was county massacre. It's the title of what has happened out here. The tragedy that we've been covering the victims ranged in age from sixteen to forty four. Each were shot anywhere from once to nine times which is off brislin relation. Let's ruin to summer two thousand fourteen hannah daughter. Sophia is eight months old. Here's producer stephanie. This is why this case is so complicated. Because just when i think the wagner's could be innocent. I read something like this around this time. According to the case indictment the wagner's began conducting with seems to almost be like reconnaissance on the road and family over the course of the next two years. They allegedly began hacking into the rodents personal computers. Their phones even their social media accounts. The even reportedly used surveillance cameras to spy on the roads. But why would they do that. Especially according to most accounts. Jake and hannah were very much still dating and very much in love at this time. So why would they be. Spying was angela wagner the mom obsessed with her youngest son. Jake wagner's relationship with hannah. Roden where the dad's. Chris rhoden or wagner senior embroiled in something big were the wagner's simply trying to get familiar with the family patterns in better understand the road in property. Why would they possibly be spying. Here's investigative reporter jodi bar. He's talking about a conversation. He had with kendra roden the daughter of one of the victims. Kenneth roden ginger eroding brought up with me in discussions. She mentioned a few times. Were camera setup. Around chris is home while kendra road and actually saw cameras on the property. That now it seems as if allegedly the wagner's had put their. She told me that christian years home that there was a camera on that property. Is you said it was in sort of not in the wooded area but the field like it hadn't been mode but it was right near the garage christine yourself and of course naturally you start questioning her about the cameras and we mean a camera with their. who was. It connected something did you look. Did you try to investigate. The very strange encounter in when she mentioned that and then the conversation window further the was probably scared right. possibly i mean but she's talking to a reporter. That was always something that i've wondered about because you'd never got an answer to and it was so strange and i still to this day. Wonder why she mentioned that. And why that conversation wasn't allowed to go any further. Yeah but i find so like the most screwed up thing about it is at that time the summer twenty fourteen is when jake wagner and hannah wrote and we're like hot and heavy and planning a wedding and to know that he was also sort of maybe planning her murder at the same time starting to at least spy on her in some way is like just very dark. I mean there's a lot of interest obviously still in this case and you know with every criminal prosecution state. They have their version of facts. Defense will have its version of facts but if this turns out to be true man what a story would've terribly tragic ending to these live to everything that was going on if we are to believe the prosecution has alleged it. This paints a very dark picture. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accepted. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. 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I'm reese jones designed human scale with a leading maker of economic office chairs and the problem with most chaz. Is you have to conform to them. That's why a human scale. We developed a new kind of chat with a built in mechanism. that automatically adjusts to your body. Let you work comfortably. Elevate your work from home. Set up with a human scale chat for a limited time. You can use the code word home hato m. e. to save twenty percent on all about jazz at human scale dot com shipping is free and you can try it for thirty days if you don't love it send it back to us and we'll pay for ten so remember human scale dot com code word home to save twenty percent human scale making work even from home more comfortable. It seems that the wagner's became obsessed with getting sole custody of sofia. Jake and hannah broke up. But how exactly do they think they would gain control as laid out in the indictment. The wagner's began methodically. Plotting a scheme. That would take several months to actually carry out here again. Is jody bar. So when you read these indictments talking about the wagons movements even before these murders happened and the investigators believed that they were planning this for quite some time before that. The indictment says that detectives believe that planning began january. One twenty sixteen murders happened april of twenty sixteen so you got four months of planning. That's alleged to have happened here. Four months the plan the south. I mean if that's every day for four months that's a full time job so what exactly went into the planning. In previous episodes we talked about how in april twenty sixteen the wagner's presented hannah roden with custody documents. But what hand didn't know then. And what police. Later uncovered is at the supposedly legal documents. Fake and that angela. wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem was allegedly at the center of the deception. I spoke to my gallon about it. So rita joe nukem angela's mom. She faces three counts of forgery account of perjury. And she's a notary. Can you speak to what power does a notary have or. How does that come into play in ohio. Notaries don't have a lot of power they are allowed obviously notarized signatures You know they have to make sure that. The oath is administered properly when they are notarize rising something. They're kind of hard to come by here in ohio. But i'm certain that because of this so probably lose that notaries license. If she hasn't already moving forward a bit in time prosecutors ultimately claimed that rita lied about the authenticity of these documents. To a grand jury. But in an unexpected twist nukem agreed to a plea deal with the prosecution. She pled guilty to a misdemeanor. Charge of obstructing official business in exchange felony charges of forgery and perjury were dismissed. Here's nukem speaking in court a good credit thing and more. It's difficult to hear her because of the recording but she says i just feel that it's not a good christian thing to lie and i couldn't live with it. No more jodi by there could be alterior motives to nukem steal. The prosecutor said in court. Though that i had ready expert concluded that rita nukem did not sign the documents or sell nukem admitted to falsely telling a grand jury and investigators that she did so only because her daughter angela wagner who was among those charged with the killings told her to do so. I mean there were some heavy charges dismissed. Were investigators trying to squeeze the grandmothers to get some information outta them. Mike allen seems to think so now there's a lot speculation and in the normal case the first thing you'd think of as okay. They gave her a reduced charge in return for cooperation. And i i would not be surprised. That's not the case but again we won't know until we get closer to trial. Can you be compelled to testify for the prosecution. Sure i mean they receive a subpoena. Unless there's some kind of legal reason why they couldn't Yeah i mean. The prosecutor could issue the subpoena. If there's testimony that prosecutor would probably asked the court designate. That person a hostile witness and then they can use leading questions according to court records. The documents appointed a guardian for jason. Hannah's daughter in the event of their deaths when police later searched the wagner. This document was found in a box. Belonging to angela wagner at labeled important stuff. I asked my gallon about the legal ramifications of these forged documents. How does it appear that. These documents were forged on april third. One thousand nine days before the murders. I tell you what. I've been doing this for a long time and i've never seen anything like this. It's strong evidence for the prosecutor Defense attorney has to find a way to explain that away which is probably next to impossible but yeah it. It's that strong evidence from the prosecutors perspective as we've discussed before it was around this time that chris rudin senior and billy wagner got into a fight as well. Here's my gallon recapping that confrontation mid april two thousand sixteen supposedly there was a fight between senior and wagner. Nobody seems to know what the fight was about or what caused. Things are obviously becoming strained between the two families but the beginning of also brought a lot of joy for the rodent family that month. Hannah celebrated her nineteenth birthday. Here's rodent family friend steph. Ham is a happy occasion. You know family together and lots and fallen because they were fine. They're always having get togethers birthday parties. Anything like that. They were a great family unit but as the rodent family was celebrating. The wagner's allegedly. Were busy planning their murders. The wagner's already had a cache of firearms but around this time they began making their own silencers. If the wagner's did do it. It seems likely that these would have been used on the night of the murders. The family also bought ammunition magazine clip a bug detector and materials to build brass catchers. Jody failed to san on. What some of this equipment is used for is a bag on the side of a firearm. It will catch spent cartridges so every time you pull the trigger a cartridges dejected and If you were really interested in not leaving anything behind as far as ballistic evidence to sound like a great story this bag will collect showcasing. So there's evidence left behind the bug detector. the purely that helps someone listening devices. Sometimes create white noise moisture muffled sounds or discussion. The indictment includes a reference to a specific pair of shoes that the family purchased from walmart. But why would they need a particular pair of shoes to pull off a murderer. Here's stephanie one. Such theory is that the wagner's were trying to frame data rodin's brother james manley. He significant because if you recall dana wrote in sister. Bobbie jo made the first discovery of bodies and called nine one one. She also called her brother. Who rushed to dana rodin's house and also found their bodies. His prints were allegedly at the crime scene. However just one day before the murders. The wagons drove two and a half hours to a specific walmart to buy a particular pair of boots. They're seen on surveillance buying these boots in other same kind of boots known to be worn by james manley. Why would they do that. Here's reporter jodi bar diamond. I mean there's a lot of assertion by the prosecution. They have evidence that these boots were purchased to fray james manley a family member for the murder of james live. The closest to dana in the chain ended up being one of the first to discover dana in hanover bodies. That morning of the idea is that they went and bought these specific boots knowing the james malay wore them and then they would in theory wear them the night of the murder so it looks to police like he was the one walking around and it sounds like four period of time. Investigators night of believed that to be the case. Because james manley was one of the first people brought in and interrogated given a polygraph. I mean if you're to believe what's written in that indictment now like you may have been pretty close this all on it was so detail oriented. Yeah and you wonder this too. It's like it seemed like a lot of detailed planning to preplanned that. I don't really know what to think of it again. I don't know anybody who's capable of doing that. And we know it happened. It was pulled off by somebody. But i mean if they really bought boots to try to frame james manley may and again. This is a heck of story drew up who thinks april twenty sixteen the same week. Hannah's birthday her mother. Dana threw a baby shower to celebrate the upcoming birth of her new baby girl kylie it would be the last time the road and family all gathered in one place. Becky rider was a close friend of dana rodin's. She told jeff about the excitement surrounding the baby's arrival. Nfl overwhelm joy. Marvelous rushes getting another grandbaby as she can love and spoil. She always loved her grandkids. Yeah easily yeah and like hannah must have been happy to because she was she had a new boyfriend at that point who was jack wagner and she was about to have a new baby and kind of start a new chapter of her life right. Oh absolutely yeah and photos from this event. Hannah smiles with her daughter. Sophia we also see other family members in the photo including frankie and his fiancee. Hannah gilly in just a few days. Eight members of the road and family would be dead. But to raise recollection the events leading up to the birth of kylie is different. She says at that point that things were still going well between jake and hannah. I believe they may have disagreements. And i think there was disappointment. But i don't think the resenting any hate we've discussed in previous episodes how the people of patan were immediately affected by the murderers and the shroud of fear that hovered over the small town. Don't understand why happened here. Really wondering thing like the mafia or anything like that because it just crazy and find live down there. I wouldn't stay there. I would be so afraid. But in the wake of the murders many news outlets portray jake wagner as almost a sympathetic figure this is how the cincinnati enquirer described him in july thousand sixteen article a fulltime single dad with mounting legal bills with a new job. That pays half of what he was making to ensure he is close to sofia but close still means. The twenty-three-year-old makes daily commute to cincinnati. A two and a half hour daily drive anybody who's connected to this family. There was a lot of emotion from the public. If of these children. No surprise at jake. A lot of people felt for jay here with a very young daughter. And he's fighting to get her back but it's what the family did in the wake of the murders that raise some suspicion. We know that just six days after the rodents were killed. Jake wagner filed for custody of two half year old sophia his daughter with hannah rudin previous episode. We talked to ohio criminal. Defense attorney mike allen about how this looks from a legal perspective extremely strong evidence for the prosecution. I mean six as less than a week after the killings to go ahead and file it can take months You know maybe a year a little bit more a little bit less. It's not something that goes quickly at all and i think that That is going to be some evidence. That's problematic for the defense doing it that quickly after the murders. It was around the same time that angela wagner suggested. Her son create a gofundme campaign to help cover the custody expenses to the tune of twenty thousand dollars. Jake wrote a personal message on the page saying these were not expensive. I was supposed to have. I was just supposed to be able to spend time with her and give her a happy childhood. Sophia and i are just asking enough to settle the fees that we acquired due to the horrific tragedy to her. Mommy he finished. I hate seeing my daughter cry. We want to get our lives back but these legal action seemed unusual too many in the community he is investigative reporter. Jodi bar remember seeing that in the roden massacre facebook group talking about that. And just you know they were. There was a lot of angry comments about it. That a lot of people in those groups have already poo vicar. the workers. They already believe they did it. And guilty and so to see that and and how vocal the wagner's were on social media. It seemed to rubble people in that group. The wrong way that. That was the wrong message. they believe the wagner should have been sending that point in time but you know a lot of people showing that the brazen this of people wrapped up in this to make a move like that to ask for help. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. You're time for real summer. Fun is here so ditched the boredom and hit up your local mini dealer because the many summer of driving then is happening. Now get a new mini cooper. Hardtop two door starting to twenty nine per month for thirty six month. Low mileage lease with two thousand nine hundred ninety nine due at signing visit many usa dot com slash east for details. That's many usa dot com slash east. And see what. It's like to drive something this fun. At the summer of dr event with many to show you how easy it is to file a claim with geico. We hired a soap opera star. Gracious me. my car has storm damage to file a claim go to possibly kept worse when my claims team. Leave me for someone else someone intense. No actually when you file a claim with geico you get your own dedicated claims team. Who promises to stay with you throughout the process. I've never known that loyalty. I can't wait for the second fever. Geigo great service without all the drama in may twenty seventeen with the investigation. Full swing officials searched the farm of a peyton resident named bernard brown. Mike allen phil. Descend on why police may have been interested in. The property agents searched his farm. I guess he's a friend of the wagner's new them for a long time. I guess they they fix cars together a lot of cars on the lot. I guess jake stored some cars and some other things on the property. And i tell you what cars and vehicles and equipment are all over these farms that That have been searched. So i mean maybe something could have been hidden somewhere Somebody must have given law enforcement a tip that there could possibly be something there or they wouldn't have searched bernard brown was not charged with anything. Authorities searched to large trailers and took one smaller utility trailer owned by the wagner's from his property. According to brown jake wagner sometimes worked for him fixing cars brown said that the wagner's had dropped items off at the property a week prior to the search. It was clear that investigators were becoming more interested in the wagner's by the spring twenty seventeen. The family had been interviewed. Several times bay thirties. It should be noted that jacob angelo were interviewed five times billy. Three times and once d'auray spoke to jeff about a conversation she had with angelo wagner as police narrowed in on her family. One day she she goes. I can't believe that they just won't leave us alone. They just will not be by the loan she goes. It's terrible. She were starting to get really worried that we're gonna be arrested. They felt that coming because they they wouldn't leave everybody alone. Rumors of the wagner's potential involvement in the road massacre quickly spread and soon they were being targeted not only by police but by pike county residents as well. Everybody had parted basically attacking then community Accusing them of murdering those people like if they were in town and people identified their vehicle. They would throw balls at them. Angela had actually into store one day and some woman had actually pulled up behind angela. She was coming back out of the store and through a glass bottle after and it busted her in the back in may twenty seventeen community continued to turn against them. Angela wagner took to social media to publicly declare her family's innocence. Here's jeff reading from her post okay. I have decided to tell you all a couple of things about me and my family. What has happened to us in the past few weeks has been devastating and it will follow us for the rest of our lives. Hannah was a daughter to me. I loved her dearly. Her loss still hurts to this day. Especially when i see her every day in my granddaughter. We did not do anything to hurt. Hannah's family we want justice just like everyone else. It is real disturbing. If you really wanna know you guys are doing. Your accusations. Now will hurt so feel later in life when she really understands what happened. Let's try to find the real monsters. Who done this. So let's unpack this for a moment. Because if angela wagner is in fact a martyr and had been targeted by the town. I mean having a bottle thrown out you. If you did not commit these crimes would be hideous especially the town that you love so much. Angela and her husband lived there for generations. That had to be really difficult however if they did it and they just went about their lives speaking to the press openly photo. I know i've said this before. She looks like a mom but then she's also grimacing in her mugshot and even during her pretrial hearings. There's something sort of smug about the way she presents herself. It also makes me wonder. Could she possibly be at the center of this facing violent backlash from locals and increasing attention from authorities. The wagner's did something that left. Everyone piped-in stunned. Here's f winkler again. Their lawyer had said that they were be primary suspects and so around that time may twenty seventeen that the whole family emptied out a few cargo facilities. They had some sheds one odds Loaded up and then up and moved to alaska when they left for alaska. I was like. Oh wow air running. And then i thought they'll get away with it. I'm the one that told him. Go to alaska. The state of ohio cannot afford extradite. You from alaska back home. But the wagner's relocation didn't hinder the investigation investigators rated three properties in adams and pike counties in the middle of may we had previously reported. Those properties are connected to the wagner family. Now investigators say they believe. The family recently moved to alaska. Investigators want any information. The public has about the family. they moved to alaska. The very following law enforcement actually finally searches the properties. Where the wagner's list that started to tighten the news in terms of the wagner more on that next time reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions where on instagram facebook and twitter at pike massacre. We look forward to answering questions and upcoming bonus episodes pectin massacres executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker. 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wagner angela wagner james manley jake wagner hannah hannah roden stephanie jeff Hannah jodi bar Jake wagner dr lori katie studios jake courtney armstrong kt studios pike county sheriff's office ohio bureau of criminal invest Attorney general dewine billy wagner
Episode 11- Finale: Whats Next?

The Piketon Massacre

31:26 min | 2 months ago

Episode 11- Finale: Whats Next?

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Take ten percent off your first order with the code. Healthy only at hella whisk dot com. That's hello w. i. s. p. dot com. This is the pipe to massacre returned. Pike county season. Two finale. what's next. I'm courtney armstrong a television producer. Katie studios with stephanie. Lydecker and jeff strong for the finale of season two. We wanted to devote some time to answering listener questions this season. You've really helped lead us down some interesting and unexpected roads. We called through a bunch of submissions and picked out a few questions that we felt needed to be discussed. We also invited group of our regular contributors to join reporters james pilcher and engineer levy as well as forensics expert joseph morgan. Walk into the finale. It's been quite a surprising season. It's been a shocking season. I think i mean we started with a crazy turn of events and now as we're learning more about the accused and the victims themselves. There's never a moment where we're i'm not surprised by this case. And what happened. And i think as we learn more as these trials start to happen. I think that's only going to continue. That is the thing that i think i loved. Most about. This season is some of the unexpected. Turns that we took willie. This show sort of unfolded real time obviously starting with the initial plea with jake wagner but then also we've done a couple of stories that were guided by listeners that we dug into to really look at the area. We really spent a lotta time this week. Digging into questions that we've been following along the way over the course of both seasons the three top things we got were. What are the details of. What happened in alaska where jake's wife elizabeth and who is the informant and those questions drive each of us every day and we do not know the answers and we an journalist and experts have been digging and the answers thus far have been impossible to come by but that will not remain the case forever. We had a conversation today with two people that hopefully we can report back on. That is mind-blowing and a little bit of a piece of the puzzle. Right as we produce this podcast as we produce anything There are certain conversations that happen on the record. There are certain that happened off the record. Obviously legally speaking we have to have perfect releases in order for us to air certain pieces of information. You know gossip conjecture things that are a matter of non fact are not usable and because of the gag order at this exact second. It's maddening because we get to speak to certain people. And we're not able to share that information. Mike from asheville north carolina wrote. Why did you guys do all these break off. Episodes like the michael moran story and the curtis francis story listeners wrote into us and gave us a heads up to be looking into these stories deeper which was fascinating because truthfully. I don't know that we would have gone down. That path had listeners not reached out an alert us to other stories that were happening in the area which really does speak to the totality of crime in a release pacific pocket of the country. They definitely spoke to this theme of injustice in the community. And i mean these were happening in the rodents backyard and so two not mention them would feel like we're not telling the complete story of this community and like the road in case the curtis case is so complicated and so tragic and the benefit of having a season two is really being able to explore some of these stories more in the same. We were able to expand on the in story. The story we were able to do that with curtis francis which is an honor to be able to do that. And so my question to you james. So you reported extensively on mike moran. Why was that important to you. And how if at all does it relate back to the rodent case As i said in the episode. And i still feel this that i feel. I owe these women the truth that you know. There's always a part of me looking at it from my male white privilege perspective. That this stuff didn't really happen. You know i had no idea So i almost didn't believe it at first and so when i found out it was true. Became like almost a mission of mine to say. You know what more people need to know about this kind of thing. So that's for the moran stories specifically in sex trafficking. I've done Subsequent stories about sex trafficking and the numbers state by state. So yeah. that's been a major focus of mine since i started reporting this story as illegal disclaimer. We should note that. Michael moran has been arrested on charges including human trafficking and promoting prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and denied any ties to sex trafficking. He's currently awaiting trial howard. Release back you know. I wouldn't say that you know there's not a direct correlation between the wagner's and michael moran or the roads and mike moran. I think it just gets to this aspect of rural america that most people don't see and that law enforcement in that part of the country in these parts of the country just isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted in-depth complicated Investigations and you guys covered it when you covered the hopper road episode. I completely admire. Which rhodie bar did with the hopper road story and how even if they don't get a conviction at least people have an understanding of what might have happened to jodi bar for what he did in that story because he really did. He changed people's lives. You know exactly you know. I saw something today. I won't name the publication but there's a story out there saying that true crime is booming and whatever but it is nothing more than a love letter to law enforcement and i wanna write the author inside. Have you listened to any of this. Have you listened to some of the stuff that you guys have done some other. My colleagues have done no. This is about unsolved. Why isn't this mystery salt. So i completely you know there are people who think ultra crime is nothing more than making the cops look at. Well no i completely disagree with got. It's as much about holding the cop accountable as it is about telling stories of the victim by the way things go away in the night. If nobody's talking about something it just gets swept under the rug and likely when you take a closer look which we get the benefit of doing a podcast of again the totality of the abuse of power or real. Look at how things are being covered in. Are they being covered enough. In our these cases being highlighted enough. You know oftentimes listen. Investigators are investigating as much as they can and as fast as they can. We get the benefit of being a little bit courtside and taking even a closer look with the benefit of tons of time in the hope really always is to hopefully move the needle to either move forward and or to make sure it doesn't happen again. Zack from wilmington delaware asked have there been efforts to reach back out to the wagner. Family members whatever happened to ray the wagner relative from season one. We've spoken to gerais numerous times since the hearing she was one of our first phone calls and is obviously very raw for her. I mean she spent as listeners. Know a lot of time proclaiming. Her family's innocence. And i think is heartbroken and that is the only way to put it and she declined to participate this season because i think she is not sure how to feel and how even if she was sure how to feel how to explain that to the masses. Could you imagine anything more horrifying. Of course we defend families and my understanding was. I'm not sure if durant had had directly spoken to jake. But i know that jake was giving the impression to at least his grandmother that he was innocent and so they shocked that all the sudden. He's in the courtroom saying the opposite of that. So what. I spoke to the day of the hearing. She was confused. Thought did someone put him up to this. is he. not in the right for my mind what. It wasn't sure what was going on because this was not the person that she had known for his entire life. So my question ange net is. What is your experience. Been reaching out to the wagner family members if you have I've only really reached out to the lawyers Philly wagner's lawyer got back me very politely. And just you know said that anytime. There's a crime with multiple defendants. You know that one of them may or may not see. They'll see that there's always that chance and they're gonna look at the case that thing I didn't really reach out to fredrika or anything like that any time. I've done that. It's not been fruitful. So i just didn't see any points. I've restuffed were in the past. And she doesn't say anything for. Greg had been very vocal and speaking to the press and as of today she has not said one thing publicly about her family since jake has played out so i'm curious what's going on with her personally and also what. The implications will be in the upcoming trials. Same with rita joe. Nukem angela's mother. I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers fritter rica to be a complicated person. I mean frederica. As we know is a staple in the community in terms of her presence with real estate and businesses i just think about the ripple effects of the crime and how it's going to affect my county for years to come and she's from carlsbad new mexico wants to know how covering the story. How has it affected you personally or professionally. I would say. I think it makes me think about trust. Certainly about who you have in your life and the relationships you have because whether it's jake and hannah rodin's relationship or it's now jake wagner and the rest of his family. I think it is a little bit. Be careful who you trust. Yeah this is one of those real cases of the boogeyman is not out there. It's in your circle and not only in your circle. These people that were really close friends. The wagner's and the rodin's we know are extremely tight way more than was earlier reported so i think for all of us. That's been the nauseating element here. That's been the part that you can kind of shake where you think you'd have a sick sense about it or you would meet somebody in. You would know. They're they're bad news. We're going to big very bad things to our family yet. That wasn't the case at all. They were at the same wedding hugging chummy. And you know. Willie shared beautiful times together. So at what point does that tip over. I think has been a real fascination of ours. And then i'd oppose the same thing to you. Joseph let me just say in two thousand sixteen. I've been you know kind of negative and covering crime for a while now on a lot of networks and and what really big cases in hareb there were a lot of cases in two thousand sixteen. But i have to say when the in case hit. I was actually covering with a chilean and nancy grace. And we've gone on to you know to talk about it. Nancy and i extensively on air and particularly if that. Tom and one of the things that struck me about it being a guy that comes from these rural routes like i do you know country. Mouse comes to the big city kind of thing. I've never seen a heard of anything like that. Non tire life. I was just amazed. And then when you go out to those locations you get out and you look at this property. And i don't know the word emptiness but there's a of vacancy to and you know that you get out there and you see what may have been there and it's no longer there. Isn't that really really something that kinda resonates with you know how. How leaves us this huge scar throughout that community. You know this this vacancy but yet it's on it. It's haunted in you know not. I'm not saying that in the sense of you know some kind of ghost or something. I'm saying it's a haunted place in this sense. This is the kind of vent that years. Now kids are gonna be sitting around campfires fifty years from now and they're going to be saying. Hey you wanna hear go story you wanna hear about the worst thing that ever happened so right now. It's a very urgent thing. They don't trials and all that sort of thing in it it leaves open into into the mythology of a place. And that's going to happen. That will happen. And this'll be something that'll be remember. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. Using in-depth genetic analysis real time bloodwork forwards top rated doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plans to help guide you to achieving long-term health with forward you get unlimited in person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com. Remember the saying if you love something. Set it free. If it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with well when it comes to identity the folks at lifelock totally disagree all those nights working overtime saving up all that money paying off all that debt and now some identity thief wants to try and set it free. They say that's crazy. Talk and we agree. That's why lifelock by norton helps monitor your info and alert you to potential identity threats. And if you do become a victim a dedicated us-based specialist will be there to help fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses but when identity thieves. Try to take what you were as you don't have to take it lying down. Save up to twenty five percent off your first year by going to lifelock dot com slash. Picton that's lifelock dot com slash piped-in for twenty five percent off has covering this case had an impact on any way you report now or has it affected you personally or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. I think some you know some stories changed the way you report or make you look at things differently kind of approach this like i approached any story. I just wanted to know the truth and figure out what happened and try to help you know if we could bring some light to what happened though i mean i. It was very sad to me. I mean i was just. It's just awful when you watch the family and go to vigils stuff like that and you would see what they were going through. And there was some times where i felt like the family wasn't treated very well by some media. You know. I feel like. I tried to treat them the family the family with kindness as i do everybody on a story with unless they're you know like a politician and then you take them straight or whatever but i i just feel it may be gave me a greater appreciation for the loss that people really suffer just because of the children involved in this of course but just you know. Just the senseless. This is true. You hear people say well. It was senseless will all killing. They're pretty much senseless. But this was really really on another level and so i think The humanity just talking to leonard manly and seeing the pain that it at brought him and his family and things geneva roden and could just see the pain on her face when she would come to court just dutifully coming to court. you know. there's no elevator out there at the pike county courthouse because she has to like walk up the stairs each time with her cane and she has a bad foot and in telling the story. Just really try to focus the best you can on the loss or at least bring that through in the storytelling. I feel like. I learned something from every story cover and it probably changes me. You know in some ways that you're in love earn evolved a couple of parents and it sounds so cliche but it's so true like even when i have my mind in this case particularly it's really makes you grateful for what you have knowing what can be lost like that. Oh yeah i would agree with you. One hundred percent on that. And i feel for the kids. Obviously i don't know any of these children but just the thought of children throwing up not knowing their parents now because of this. That's going to happen. I try to keep my emotions separate but it's hard you know. Sometimes you come home and you look at your own children and you just thank god. What would happen as my child was left because of that. And you try to really put yourself in that way. And it's just i can't even imagine. I hope this kid know we get up in the morning every day and think about people who've never met and think about families who we never will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit of doing and i can speak for all of us to say if you speak to a person whether it's on the phone or on zoom or ida i in the same room and their entire family has been slaughtered and they can sit before us and tell their tail and have the wherewithal and the composure to be able to push on in their world certainly we can tell their stories and we also can push on in our world and i think that's very inspiring in a way We've been wildly inspired by this. This case in ways. I can't quite describe the rodent. Family has become a piece of dna. Do for short georgia's trial will be next and do we know what the order is yet. All we know is that georgia's trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might schedule mom and dad earlier than that. They could still do that. They very well could still do but as of right now. The only one we know of is next spring. We're going to have a trial unless there's a plea deal he's prosecutors have been dealing with this case for years so i assume they've got some type of game plan or they think they know who could go next or who they want to potentially offer something to next. I mean i'm sure they have a plan i. I don't know that they have a plan. I'm just kind of surmising. No i'm sure they've thought about this over the years i think it's so compelling to better understand how one trial will influence the other. It is unusual to have four now. Trials of family members back to back so imagine one trial of course impacts the other in the bombs that come along with that particularly jake widener facing off for the first time as now stipulated in his plea agreement that he will testify against his own mother. His brother his own father is mind blowing. There's no way this can play out in any universe that is not shocking. If they are turning on each other that is a a piece of the equation that we really never thought would happen until jake appeared at that hearing. How do you throw your son under the bus in. How does your son's throw his own mother under the legal bus. That is a legal mess. And i'm so curious to see how it plays out. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment like most people. I barely have time to get everything done. Let alone make a healthy indecent dinner for my family every night. Luckily i found hellofresh. This is not your average meal delivery. Kid hellofresh cuts out stressful meal planning and grocery store trip so you can enjoy cooking and get dinner on the table and just about thirty minutes or less with hellofresh. Making meals with my entire family is a total joy and our hands down favorite recipe is the white cheddar wonder burgers crispy fries on the side. You can enjoy a wide variety of easy delicious options for all three meals a day plus every snack and special treat inbetween within the hellofresh market. And you can even customize your order on the app in minutes so if i feel like steak instead of chicken i can quickly and easily adjust delivery preferences. Don't take my word for it. Chai yourself go to hellofresh dot com slash in fourteen and use the code piked in fourteen for up to fourteen. Free meals. Plus free shipping. That's hellofresh dot com slash in fourteen and use code piped-in fourteen for up to fourteen free meals plus free shipping hellofresh. America's number one meal kit in a rapidly changing world. People wonder more and more about where their food comes from. And how it was grown. Farmers grow america's corn understand. How important this is an wanna share. The stories from our farms of how we are working to grow an incredible crop. That can be an answer to sustainability questions and is grown by men and women who value the air water soil and our natural resources. Just like you to find out more about how corn farmers working to feed and fuel a vibrant economy and healthy planet visit. Cg dot com nc g a commitment to the future colleen from aspen. Colorado asked what do you think is going to be the end result of the case when all is said and done other going to be any more surprises i would predict at this point. They're all found guilty. And i think there's probably no plea deal and we're going to see these. Trials happened one. After the other. Starting with george. I think it will be starting with angela. Wagner and george will follow and angela's trial will set the stage for the remaining two. If jake is lying. Is that a possibility to anybody. That jacobs lie if what takes over that ten to eighteen hour confession if that's indeed you know the story. And he said it was all true and he led them to murder weapons and vehicle used But some pretty compelling evidence so you know there may be another domino or to to fall and maybe there will be somebody that fix it out and says now i'm gonna roll the day and go to trial but it before they're either. You know with jake steal the death penalty bafta table so you either plead guilty and get life in prison or you roll the dice and get convicted and get life in prison or you. Roll the dice and get a hung jury. So that's kind of how i look at it jeans. Will there be any more surprises. Well i think it depends on your definition of surprise jake pleading guilty a few months ago. That was a surprise us at this point with that on the table. I don't think anything would be surprised. I don't necessarily think someone deciding to stick it out to say yeah. I'm going to go to trial. Would be surprising or pleading out would be surprising. I think it's gonna depend on how hard in which weak link the prosecutors decide to push on where they see the weak links if they see a weak link. I mean they're all being kept in separate prisons and they're all being kept with separate council now. Those council can talk to each other. But the wagner's can't so. I i don't know at this point. Nothing surpr- would surprise me in this case anymore. Apart from they went to trial and got a not guilty verdict. That would be a shocker. A really really sincere. Thanks for your time information. Passion all of it really on behalf of kt studios. Just thank you to the listeners. You know we. We hit number one in all categories because people kept in and as we talked about lettuce in the right direction in terms of other things to be discussing packing. So thank you. As we bring season to close one piece of the puzzle has been solved. Jack wagner changes pleaded guilty and said he was responsible for five of the eight rodent family member deaths here can guilty. Jake wagner faces life behind bars and has disclosed details of the plot to kill the rodent family to authorities tortoise evidence specifically weapons that were using offenses. He's also implicated his family. In the gruesome murders her angela wagner and george wagner the fourth allsteel face charges including aggravated murder jake wagner has actually agreed to testify against his mother his father and his older brother well angela billion george wagner continue to maintain their innocence questions remain the wagner is the suspected mastermind the conspiracy to kill eight members of the rodent and gilly family prosecutors. Say the wagner's lived in insular life focused on control of children and the young women who entered their lives but with judgment day for accused brother george wagner the fourth just around the corner trial date has been set for april. Four hundred thousand twenty two. What will happen in. The meantime is anyone's guess. Will there be another plea deal to see where this case goes from here. Now they have someone who is cooperating. They have someone who can give them specific evidence. What exactly is jake gonna say understand what happened with the you could grandmother renuka make an appearance on the witness stand notary and prosecutors say she forged guardianship documents three weeks before the rodents were murdered defined details of this plea. Agreement are under seal with the court. So it's still a question about whether or not new come will be required to testify in the trial. Or we'll grandmother federico adner end up back in court the seventy seven year old wagner face two felony charges of obstructing justice and perjury. I never lied about anything. I was innocent. They had no evidence against she can be charged again. In this case later perhaps most importantly will the victims families finally see closure and the case our family will never stop trying to bring whoever did this to justice. One thing is for sure. There's much more on the horizon in this case it just keeps on coming. I still wonder if there was much more to this that we don't know what would drive someone to do what happened here. Still to me a whole lot of questions here more on next season but check in next week when we'll be bringing you a special bonus episode before the break for more information on the case and relevant photos follow us on instagram at kt underscore studios the piped-in massacre returned by county is executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound designed by executive producer. Jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker and chris graves. The pike massacre returned to pay. County is a production of i heart. Radio and k studios for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows switching to gyco is a good idea especially when you consider everything first off gyco makes it easy to switch. They have licensed agents available twenty four seven online or over the phone. If it's so easy you might start thinking everything is easy even big wave surfing and it's not as actually quite difficult. Well if you switch to geico you could save hundreds on car insurance and you can keep saving by bundling your motorcycle. Bow and rv plus your home renter's insurance but saving money might lead you to make some questionable purchases like a twenty foot feather boa and do you know how hard it is to clean a twenty foot boa well. They do have an industry leading mobile app. You can use to pay your bill file manager claim or adding new driver when life gets a little easier. It makes you confident and you start calling everyone. Ace your better well. Geico has a ninety seven percents customer satisfaction rating and has been saving people money for eighty five years. It's hard to beat that but switch to geico. It's obviously a good idea. Are you one tree hill. Obsessed our brooke peyton and haley. Your bff goals joins soapy bush. Hillary burton and bethany joy lens on the drama queens podcast to relive reload and rewatch every one tree hill. Minute carreno fans like one tree hill fans. There is no family like our family. So we got together to do. Watch podcast to relive the show as so many of you have. 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jake curtis francis jake wagner michael moran wagner mike moran courtney armstrong Katie studios Lydecker james pilcher joseph morgan Michael moran ray the wagner Philly wagner rita joe Nukem angela hannah rodin hareb Pike county
#225  Jeffrey Shainline: Neuromorphic Computing and Optoelectronic Intelligence

Lex Fridman Podcast

3:02:05 hr | 3 hrs ago

#225 Jeffrey Shainline: Neuromorphic Computing and Optoelectronic Intelligence

"The following is a conversation with jeff. Shane line a scientist at nist interested. In optoelectronic intelligence we have a deep technical dive into computing hardware. That will make jim. Keller proud are urge you to hop on to this rollercoaster ride through near morphou computing and superconducting electronics. And hold on for dear life. Jeff is a great communicator of technical information and so it was truly a pleasure to talk to him about some physics and engineering to support the spot guests. Please check out our sponsors in the description as usual. I'll do few minutes of ads now. No ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting so hopefully you don't skip but if you must please check out the sponsored links in the description it really is the best way to support the podcast. I use their stuff. i enjoyed. Maybe you will to this show is brought to you by an amazing new sponsor that i think makes life for businesses easier and better on earth. The sponsor is stripe. It's an amazing payment platform that has helped thousands of companies of all sizes make processing payments simple and borderless stripe his engineered. The world's most powerful and easy to use api. Is you can get up and running minutes nowadays. They also have a new. No code solution called payment links that allow you to sell online by generating link. You can share it with your customers to get paid fast. All with no coding required. It was actually a bit surprising to me how difficult it is to get online payments right and When i first started interacting with stripe from a user perspective they just got it right and they make a super easy for the business to this is is just an incredible company and credible solution. You should definitely check him out. Whether you're an online or in-person retailer software platform marketplace or subscriptions business visit stripe dot com. That's stripe dot com. This shows also brought to you by code kademi the website. I highly recommend you go to if you want to learn to code. It doesn't matter if you're totally new or someone experienced there's a course there for you. I recommend use sign up and take their learn python. Three course they say it takes twenty four hours to complete but it is so clear so accessible even fun. I think time will just fly by probably. We'll take less than twenty five hours. It gives you the most important basics. Which is what. I think a great course that gets you into program they get into to by thon should do i think. Programming is empowering not just two people programmers i think many disciplines many jobs strengthened if you learn how to program it expands the way you see the world expanded set of tools. You can use to take on problems in the world. So i definitely recommend you learn to program just to Make yourself a deeper thinker and problem-solver get fifteen percent off your code kademi pro-membership when you go to code kademi dot com and use promo code legs. That's promo code lex. At code kademi dot com to get fifty percents off kademi pro the best way to learn to code code. Kademi spelled c. o. d. e. c. a. d. e. m. y. Promo code lex. This episode is also brought to you by leonod lindbergh's virtual machines. It's an awesome compute infrastructure. That lets you develop deploy and scale what applications you build faster and easier. This is both for small personal projects and huge systems. It's lower cost than aws is better than aws and a lot of other ways to but more importantly to me is the simplicity and the quality of the customer service with real humans. Twenty four seven every single day of the year. I can't say enough about the importance of compute infrastructure making it accessible usable making problem solving into bugging super easy and just make an enjoyable to us and i think leno delivers on this. Of course the financial benefits to me usability overpowers all of that because the best way to save money is to make a product. That's just fun to use easy to use efficient use. If it runs on lenox runs on leonod visit winnow dot com slash legs and click on the crease. Free account button. He get started with one hundred dollars in free credit. This episode is also brought to you by better. Help spelled h. e. l. p. help they figure out what you need a match you with the licensed professional therapists and under forty eight hours. I've always believed in the power of Talk therapy of exploring your own mind with the help of others to understand sort of the darker parts in the mind and i think that exploration in itself can help you grow and can help you deal with things that hold you back. I think there's a lot of ways to do that. But i think you should also consider having professional therapist. Help as part of the solution as part of this Talk therapy toolkit and saw recommend better hope because it's easy private affordable and available worldwide. Check them out. Better help dot com slash lex. That's better hope dot com slash lex. This is the legs. Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with jeff. Shane line I get a chance to read a fascinating paper you Authored called optoelectronic intelligence. So maybe you can start by talking about this paper and start with the basic questions. What is optoelectronic intelligence. Yes so in that paper. The concept i was trying to describe is sort of an architecture for building brain inspired computing that leverages light for communication in conjunction with electronic circuits for computation in that particular paper of the work. We're doing right now in our project at nist is focused on. Superconducting electrons for computational. Go into why that is but That might make a little more in context. If we i describe what that is in contrast to which is semiconductor electronics. So is it worth taking a couple of minutes to describe semi-conducting electronics. It might even be worthwhile to step back and Talk about electricity and circuits. And how circuits work rob before we talk about super conductivity right okay. How does the computer work jeff. Well i i won't go into everything that makes computer work. But let's talk about the basic building blocks transistor so and even more basic than that. a semiconductor material. Silicon say so In in silicon silicon is a semiconductor. And what that means is at low temperature. there are no free charges. No free electrons. That can move around so when you talk about electricity you're talking about predominantly electrons moving to establish electric currents and they move under the influence of voltages. So you apply voltages electrons move around those can be measured as currents and you can represent information that way so. Semiconductors are special in the sense that they are really malleable. So if you have a semiconductor material it you can change the number of free electrons that can move around by pudding different elements different atoms in lattice site. So what is the ladder site well. Semiconductor is a crystal which means all the atoms that comprise the material are at exact locations. That are perfectly periodic in space. If you start at anyone atom and you go along the water called the lattice vectors you get to another adamant and other adamant another adam and for high quality devices. it's important that is a perfect crystal very few defects but you can intent intentionally replace a silicon atom with say a phosphorus atom. And then you can. You can change the number of free electrons that are in a region of space that has that excess of what are called dope ins so picture device that has a left terminal a right terminal. And if you apply a voltage between those two you can cause electrical current to flow between them. Now we Add a third terminal up on top there and depending on the voltage between the left and right terminal and that third voltage you. Can you can change that current so what's commonly done in digital electronic circuits is to leave a fixed voltage from left to right and then change that voltage that applied at what's called the gate the gate of the transistor so What you do is you you make it to her. There's an excess electrons on the left excessive electrons on the right and very few electrons in the middle and you do this by changing the concentration of different dope in the lattice spatially and then when you apply a voltage to that gate you can either 'cause current to flow or turn it off and so that sort of zero and one you if you apply voltage current can flow that current is representing a digital one and from that from that basic element. You can build up all the complexity of digital electric circuits. That have really had a profound influence on our society. Now you're talking about electrons. Can you give a sense of what scale we're talking about when we're talking about in silicon Being able to mass manufacture these kinds of gates. Yes oh scale in a number of different senses. Well at the scale of the silicon lattice. The distance between two atoms there is half nanometer so People often like to compare these things to the width of a human hair. I think at some six orders of magnitude smaller than the width of a human hair Some something on that order so remarkably small. We're talking about individual atoms here and electrons are of that length scale when they're in that environment but there's another sense that scale matters and digital electronics. This is perhaps the more important sense. Although they're related scale refers to a number of things it refers to the size of that transistor so for example. I said you have a left. Contact a right contact and some space between them. Where the the gate electrode sits that that's called the channel with or the channel length and What has enabled what we think of. As moore's law or the continued increase performance in silicon microelectronic. Circuits is the ability to make that size that feature size ever smaller ever smaller at a Really remarkable pace. I mean that that feature size has decreased a consistently every couple of years for the since the nineteen sixties and. That was that was what more predicted in the nineteen sixties. He thought it would continue for at least two more decades in. It's been much longer than that. And so That is why we've been able to fit ever more devices. Ever more transistors. Ever more computational power on essentially the same size of chip so a user sits back and does essentially nothing running the same computer program but those devices are getting smaller so they go faster they get more energy efficient and all of our computing performance just continues to improve and we don't have to think too hard about what we're what we're doing as say a software design something like that i. I absolutely don't mean to say that there's no innovation in software the user side of things. Of course there is but from from the hardware perspective. We just have been given this gift of continued performance improvement through this scaling that is ever smaller feature sizes with very similar Say power consumption that power consumption is has not continued to scale in the most recent decades but Nevertheless we had a really good run there for a while. And now we're down to gates. That are seven nanometers which is state of the art. Right now Maybe global foundries is trying to push it even lower than that. I can't keep up with where the predictions are that is going to end but seven nanometer Seven nanometer transistor has just just a few tens of atoms along the length of the conduction pathway. So a naive semiconductor device physicist. Think you can't go much further than that without some kind of revolution in the way we think about the physics of our devices. Is there something to be said about the mass manufacturer of these devices right right. So that's another thing. So how have we been able to make those transistor smaller and smaller. Companies like intel global foundries. They invest a lot of money in the lithography. So how how are these chips actually made one of the most important steps is this. What's called ion implantation. So you have you start with sort of pristine silicon crystal and then using photolithography which is technique where you can pattern different shapes using light you can define which regions of space you're going to implant with different Different species of ions that are going to change the local electrical properties right there so by using ever shorter wavelengths of light and different kinds of optical techniques different kinds of lithographic techniques things that go far beyond My knowledge base. You can just simply shrink that feature size down and you say you're at seven nanometers. Well the wavelength of light. That's being used. As over one hundred nanometers. That's already deepen the v. so how how are those minute features pattern while there's there's an extraordinary amount of innovation that has gone into that but nevertheless it stayed very consistent in this ever-shrinking feature size and now the question is can you make it smaller and even if you do. Do you still continue to get performance improvements. But that's another kind of scaling where these these companies have been able to so okay. You picture a chip. That has a processor on it. Well that chip is not made as a chip. It's made as on wafer and Using photolithography you basically print the same pattern on different dies all across the wafer. Multiple layers tens probably probably a hundred some layers in a mature foundry process. And you do this on ever bigger wafers too. That's another aspect of scaling. That's occurred in the last several decades. So now you have this three hundred millimeter way for it's like as big as a pizza and it has be thousand processors on it and then you dice that up using saw and now you can sell these things so cheap because the the manufacturing process was so streamlined. I think technology is revolutionary as silicon microelectronics has to have that kind of Manufacturing scale ability which i will just emphasize i believe is enabled by physics. It's not i mean. Of course there's human ingenuity that goes into but at least from my my side where where i sit it. Sure looks like the physics of our universe allows us to produce that. And we've we've discovered how more so than we've invented it. Although of course we have invented it humans have invented it but it was. It's almost as if it was there waiting for us to to discover you mean the entirety of it or are you specifically talking about the techniques of photolithography like the optics involved. I mean they the entirety of the scaling down to the seven nanometers the able to have electrons not interfere with journalists way that you could still have gates like that's enabled to achieve that scale spatial. Temporal seems to be very special and is enabled by the physics of our world. All of the things you just said so starting with the the silicon material itself. Silicon is a unique semiconductor. It has essentially ideal properties for making a specific kind of transistor. That's extraordinarily useful. So i mentioned that silicon has Well when you make a transition you have this gate contact that sits on top of the conduction channel and depending on the voltage. You apply there you pull more carriers into the conduction channel or push them away so it becomes more or less conductive in order to have that work without just sucking those carriers right into that contact you need a very thin insulator and part scaling has been to gradually decrease the thickness of that of that gate insulator so they can use a roughly similar voltage and still have the same current voltage characteristics so the material. That's used to do that or i should say was initially used to do that was a silicon dioxide. Which just naturally grows on the silicon surface or you expose silicon to the atmosphere that we breathe and Well if you're manufacturing you're going to purify these gases but nevertheless that that what's called a native oxide will grow there. There are essentially no other materials on the entire periodic table that have as good of a gate insulator as as silicon dioxide. And that that has to do with nothing but the physics of the interaction between silicon and oxygen. And if it wasn't that way transistors could not the they could not perform in nearly the the degree of capability that they have and that that has to do with the way that the the oxide grows the reduced density of defects there. It's it's insulation meaning essentially it's energy gaps. You can apply a very large voltage there without having currently through it. So that's physics right there There there are other things to silicon is a semiconductor in in an elemental sense. You only need silicon atoms. A lot of other semiconductors. You need to different kinds of atoms. Like a compound from group three in a compound from grew five that opens you up to lots of defects that can occur where one atoms not sitting quite at the lattice site. It is and it's switched with another one that degrades performance But then also on the side that you mentioned with the manufacturing we have access to light sources that can produce these very short wavelengths of light How does photolithography occur. Will you actually put this polymer on top of your wafer and expose it to light and then you use a acquiesce chemical processing to dissolve away the regions that were exposed to light and leave the regions that were not and we are blessed with these. Polymers that have the right property where they can Susan events where the polymer splits. Where a photon hits. I mean you know maybe maybe. That's not too surprising. But i don't know it all it all comes together to have this really complex Manufacturable ecosystem where very sophisticated technologies can be devised and it works quite well and amazing like you said wavelength. Like one hundred nanometers or something like that you're still able to achieve on. This polymer precision of whatever. Whatever said seven nanometers yeah. I think i've heard like four nanometers being talked about something. Like i guess i if we can just pause on this and we'll return to super connectivity but in this whole journey from a history perspective what what do you think is the most beautiful at the intersection of engineering and physics in this whole process that we've talked about with silicon photolithography things that people were able to achieve in order to Push the moore's law forward is the early days the the invasion the transistor itself. Is it Some particular cool little thing that Maybe not many people know about like. What do you think is most beautiful in this. In this whole process journey. The most beautiful is a little difficult to answer lending. Let me try and sidestep it a little bit and just say what strikes me about looking at the the history of silicon microelectronics that So when when quantum mechanics was developed people quickly began applying it to semiconductors who is broadly understood that these are fascinating systems and people cared about him for their basic physics but also their utility is devices. And then the transistor was invented in the late forties In a relatively crude experimental setup where he just crammed a metal electrode into the semiconductor. And and that was that was ingenious. These people were able to Make it work. you know But so what. I wanna get to that. That really strikes me. Is that in those early days. There were a number of different. Semiconductors that were being considered they had different properties. Different strengths different weaknesses. Most people thought germanium was the the way to go it. It had some some nice properties of related to things about how the electrons move inside the lattice but other people thought that compound semiconductors group three and group five also had really really extraordinary Properties that might be conducive to to making the best devices so that were different groups exploring each of these and that's great. That's how science works. You have to cast a broad net. But then i what i what i find striking is why why is it that silicon one. Because it's not that it's not that germanium is it useless material in. It's not president technology or compound semiconductors. They're both doing doing exciting and important. Things slightly more niche applications where silicon is the semiconductor material for microelectronics which is the platform for digital computing which is transformed our world wide silicon win. It's because of a remarkable assemblage of qualities that no one of them was the clear winner but it made these sort of compromises between a number of different influences at had that really excellent Gate oxide that allowed it to that. Allowed us to make vets these high performance transistors so quickly and cheaply and easily without having to do a lot of materials development. The ban gap of silicon Is actually so th in a semiconductor. There's an important parameter which is called the band gap which tells you If they're sort electrons that fill up to one level in the energy diagram and there's a gap where electrons aren't allowed to have an energy in a certain range and then there's another energy level above that and that that difference between the lower sorta filled level and the unoccupied level. That tells you how much voltage you have to apply in order to induce a current flow so germanium that's about point seven five electron-volts that means you have to apply point seven five volts to get a current moving and it turns out that if you compare that to the the thermal expectations that are induced by the temperature of our environment that gaps. Not quite big enough. You start to use it to perform computations. It gets a little hot and you get all these accidental carriers that are excited into the conduction band and it. It causes errors in your computation. Silicon's band gap is just a little higher one point one electron volts but you have an exponential dependence on the the the number of carriers that are present that can induce those errors decays exponentially with that voltage. So just that that slight extra energy in that band gap really puts it in an ideal position to be operated in the in the conditions of our of our ambien buyers kind of fascinating see like you mentioned errors decrease exponentially With voltage so. It's funny because the air thing comes up you know when you start talking macaw quantum computing. And it's kind of amazing that everything we've been talking about the errors as we scale down seems to be extremely low yes and like all of our computation is based on the assumption at extremely low yes not digital computation side digital computation so as opposed to our biological computation. Our brain is like the assumption is stuff is gonna fail all over the place and we somehow have to still be robust to that. That's exactly right so this also this is going to be the most controversial part of our conversation where you're gonna make some enemies. Lemme ask because we've been talking about physics and engineering a which group of people smarter and more important for the. Let me ask the question in a better way. Some of the big innovations some of the beautiful things that we've been talking about how much of it is physics. How much of his engineering. My dad is a physicist. He talks down to all the amazing engineering that we're doing in The artificial intelligence and the computer science in the robotics and all that space. So we about this all the time. So what do you think who gets more credit. I'm genuinely not trying to be politically correct here. I don't see how you have any of the what we consider. Sort of the great accomplishments of society without both in you absolutely need both of those things. Physics tends to play a key role earlier in the development and then engineering optimization these things take over and i mean the invention of the transistor or actually even before that the understanding of semiconductor physics that allowed the invention of the transistor. That's all physics. If you didn't have that physics you're you don't even get to get on the on the on the field but once you have understood and demonstrated that this is in principle possible. Moore's allies engineering batman. Why we have Computers more powerful than then old supercomputers in each of our phones is. That's all engineering. And i think i would be quite foolish to say that. It's that's not valuable if not a great contribution It's a beautiful dance. Would you put like silicon. The understanding the material properties in the space of engineering That whole process worked understand that it has all these nice properties were even the development of Photolithography is that basically. Would you put that in category of engineering. No i would say that it is basic physics. It is applied physics material science. It's x ray crystallography. It's polymer chemistry. It's everything stephen thrown in absolutely. Yes just know biology or we can get to biology or the biology's in the humans that are engineering the system at seoul integrated deeply okay. So let's return you mentioned this word. Superconductivity so what does that have to do with what we're talking about right okay. So in a semiconductor. As i try to describe second ago you can sort of in induced currents by applying voltages. And those have sort of typical properties that you would expect from some kind of conductor those electrons they don't just flow perfectly without dissipation if an electron collides with an imperfection the lattice or another electron. It's going to slow down. It's gonna lose it's momentum so you have to keep applying that voltage in order to keep the current flowing in a superconductor. Something different happens. If you get a current to start flowing it will continue to flow indefinitely. There's there's no dissipation so it's crazy. How does that happen well. It happens at low temperature and this is crucial. It has to it has to be a a quite low temperature. And what what. I'm talking about i for essentially all of our conversation. I'm going to be talking about conventional. Superconductors sometimes called low t. c. superconductors low critical temperature superconductors and so those materials have to be in at a temperature around. Say round for kelvin. I mean they're critical. Temperature might be ten kelvin. Something like that but you want to operate them at around four kelvin. Four degrees above absolute zero. And what happens at that temperature at at very low temperatures in certain materials. Is that the the noise of atoms moving around the lat is vibrating. Electrons colliding with each other that becomes sufficiently low that the electrons can settle into this very special state. it's sometimes referred to as a macroscopic quantum state because if i had a piece of superconducting material here. Let's say niobium is a very typical Superconductor if i if i had a block of niobium here and we cooled it below its critical temperature. All of the electrons in that in that superconducting state would be in one coherent quantum state. They would all the the. The wave function of that state is described in terms of all of the particles simultaneously but it extends across macroscopic dimensions the size of a whatever material the size of whatever block of that material. I have sitting here and the way that the way this occurs is that you know we. Let's try to be a little bit light on the technical details but essentially the electrons coordinate with each other they they are able to in this macroscopic quantum state. They're able to sort of one can quickly take the place of the other. You can't tell electrons apart. They're what's known as identical particles. So if this electron runs into a defect that would otherwise cause it to scatter it can just sort of Almost miraculously avoid that defect. Because it's not really in that location. It's part of a macroscopic. Quantum state in the entire quantum state was not scattered by that defects. You can get a current that flows without dissipation and that's called a super current that's sort of just very much scratching the surface of of superconductivity. There's very deep enrich physics. They're just probably not the main subject. We need to go into right now but it turns out that when you have this material you can. You can do usual things like wires out of it so you can get current flow in a straight line on a chip but you can also make other devices that perform different kinds of operations. Some of them are kind of logic operations like you like you get an a transistor the most common or most I would say diverse in its utility component is a josephson junction. It's not analogous to a transistor in the sense that if you apply a voltage here at changes how much current flows from left to right but it is analogous in sort of a sense of. It's the it's the go-to component that that circuit engineer is going to use to start to build up more complexity. So these are These junctions service gates they can. They can serve his gates. They can so. I'm not sure how how concerned to be with semantics but let me just briefly say what a josephson junction is. talk about. Different ways that they can be used basically if you have a a superconducting wire and then a a small gap of A different material. That's not superconducting an insulator or normal metal and then another superconducting wire on the other side. That's a josephson junction. So it's sometimes referred to as a superconducting weak link. So you have this. Superconducting stayed on one side and on the other side and that the superconducting wave function actually tunnels across that gap. And when you when you create such a physical entity it has very unusual Current voltage characteristics with in the in the gap like the weirdest entire circuit. So you can imagine suppose you had a loop setup that had one of those weak links in in the loop current would flow in that loop independent even if you had an applied voltage to it. And that's called the josephson effect so the fact that there's this phase difference in the quantum wave function from one side of the tunneling barrier to the other induces current to flow. So how as you change state right exactly. So how do you change. State now picture if i have a current biased coming down this line of my circuit. And there's a josephson junction right in the middle of it. And now i i make another wire that goes around the josephson junction. So i have a loop a superconducting loop. I can add current to that loop by exceeding the critical curve that josephson junction so like any superconducting material. It can carry the super current that i've described this current that can propagate without dissipation up to a certain level and if you try and pass more current than that through the material it's going to become a resistant material normal normal material so in the in the josephson junction. The same thing happens. I can buy it above its critical current. And then what it's gonna do. It's going to add a a qantas amount of current into that loop in what i mean by qantas is it's going to come in discrete packets with a well-defined value of current so in the vernacular of of some people working in this community. You would say you papa flux on into the loop so affleck's on you papa flex on into the loop yes. Gabe border talk. Hello sorry go ahead. A flex on his one of these quantities Sort of Amounts of current that you can add to a loop and this is a cartoon picture. But i think it's sufficient for our purposes so which may be useful to say. What is the speed at which these discrete packets of current travel. Because we'll be talking about light a little bit. It seems like the speed is important. The speed is important. That's an excellent question. Sometimes i wonder where you how you became so astute but also this Matrix for is coming out. So maybe that's related. I'm not sure. I'm dressed for the job i was trying to get did become an extra metrics. Ford didn't work out anyway So was speeding these packets. You'll have to find another gig. I know i'm sorry So the speed of the pack is actually these on these these sort of pulses of of Current data generated by josephson junctions. They can actually propagate very close to the speed of light. Maybe something like a third of the speed of light. That's quite fast. And so one of the reasons why josephson junctions are. Appealing is because there are signals can propagate quite fast. And they can. They can also switch very fast. What i mean by switch is perform that operation that had described where you add current to the loop that can happen within a few tens of pico seconds. So you can get you can get devices that operate in the hundreds of gigahertz range and by comparison. Most processors in our in our conventional computers operate closer to the one gigahertz range. Maybe three gigahertz seems to be kind of where where those speeds have have leveled out so gamers listening to this are getting really excited that overclock their system to like what is it. Like four gigahertz hundred. His sounds incredible. I can i just tiny tangent is the physics of this understood. Well how to do the stably. Yes the physics is understood. Well the physics of josephson junctions understood. Well the is understood quite well to the reasons why it hasn't displaced silicon microelectronics in conventional digital computing. I think are more related to what i was alluding to before about the myriad practical almost mundane aspects of silicon that make it so useful you can make a transistor ever smaller and smaller and it will still performance digital function quite well. The same is not true of josephson. Injunction you really. they don't they just. It's not the same thing that there's this feature that you can keep making smaller and smaller. It'll keep performing the same operations this loop. I described any in circuit. Well i i wanna be collection say any josephson circuit but many josephson circuits. The way they process information or the way they perform whatever function it is. They're trying to do. Maybe it's sensing a weak magnetic field it depends on an interplay between the junction. And that loop and you can't make that much smaller and it's not for practical reasons that have to do with affi. It's four fundamental physical reasons about the way the magnetic field interacts with that superconducting material. There's there are physical limits that no matter how good our technology got those circuits. Would i think would never be able to be scaled down to the the densities that silicon microelectronics can. I don't know if we mentioned. Is there something interesting about the various superconducting materials involved. Or is it all. There's a lot of stuff that's interested in it's not silken it's not silicon no so like it some materials that also required to be super cold for galveston and so yes. So so let's dissect a couple of those different things. The super cold part. Lemme just mention for your gamers out there that are trying to it at four gigahertz and would love to go to war kind of cooling system can tell the four kelvin. You need liquid helium and so liquid. Helium is expensive. it's inconvenient you need to cry a stat that that sits there and the energy consumption of that christ stat is impracticable for. It's not going in your cell phone. You're not so you can pick holding yourself on like this and then something the size of a keg of beer or something on your back to cool it like that makes no sense. So if you if you're trying to make this inconsiderate devices Electronics that are ubiquitous across society. Superconductors are not in the race for that for now. But you're saying so worth ju just to frame the conversation may be the thing. We're focused on is competing systems that serve as like as servers like large. Yes large system so so then you can contrast what's going on in your cell phone with what's going on at one of the supercomputers Colleague katie shuman invited us out to oakridge a few years ago. So we got to see titan in that was when they were building summit so these are some high performance supercomputers out in tennessee and those are feeling entire rooms the size of warehouses. You know so once you're at that level okay there you're already putting a lot of power into cooling you need cooling is of your engineering tasks that you have to deal with so there. It's not entirely obvious that cooling to four kelvin is out of the question it it's it has not happened yet and i can speak to why. That is in the digital domain. If you're interested. I think it's not going to happen. I don't think. I don't think superconductors are gonna replace semiconductors four digital computation There there are a lot of reasons for that. But i think ultimately what it comes down to his all things considered cooling errors scaling down to feature cise all that stuff. Semiconductors work better at the system level. Is there some aspect of Just curious about the historical momentum of this is there some power to the momentum of an industry that's mass manufacturing using certain material is. This is like a titanic shifting. Like what's your sense when a good idea comes along. How good does that idea need to be for. The titanic start shifting. That's a that's an excellent question. That's an excellent way to frame it and you know. I don't know the answer to that but what i think is okay so the the history of the superconducting logic goes back to the seventies. Ibm made a big push to do. Superconducting digital computing in the seventies. And they made some choices about their devices and their architectures and things that in hindsight were kind of doomed to fail. And i don't mean any disrespect for the people that did it was hard to see at the time but then another generation of superconducting logic was introduced to say the nineties Someone named liquor of and Semenov they propose an entire family of circuits based on josephson junctions that are doing digital computing based on logic gates and or not these kinds of things And they showed how it could go hundreds of times faster than silicon microelectronics and it was. It's extremely exciting. I wasn't working in the field at that time but later when i went back and read the literature trash. Wow this is this is so awesome And so it you might think well the reason why it didn't display. Silicon is because silicon already had so much momentum at that time but that was the nineties. Silicon kept that momentum because it had a simple way to keep getting better you just make feature smaller and smaller. So you know it would have to be. I don't think you would have to be that much better than silicon displace it but the problem is. It's just not better than silicon. It might be better than silicon. In one metric speed of switching operation or power consumption of switching operation but building digital computers a lot more than just that elemental operation. It's everything goes into it. Including the manufacturing including the packaging including the The you know various materials aspects of things so the reason why an even in even in some of those early papers. I can't remember which one it was. Liquor said something along the lines of you can see how we can build an entire family of digital electronic circuits based on these components. They could go hundred or more times faster than semiconductor logic gates. But i don't think that's the right way to use superconducting electronic circuits. He didn't say what the right way was but he basically said digital logic trying to steal the show from silicon is probably not what these circuits are are most suited to accomplish so if we can just linger and use the word computation when you talk about computation. How do you think about it. do you think purely on just The the switching or do you think something a little bit larger scale circuit taken together performing the basic arithmetic operations that are then required to do the kind of computation. That makes up a computer because when we talk about the speed of computation is boil down to the basic switching or. Is there some bigger picture that you're thinking about well all right so maybe we should descend big you eight. There are a variety of different kinds of computation. I don't pretend to be an expert in the theory of computation or anything like that. I guess it's important to differentiate between digital logic which represents information as a series of bits binary digits which you know You can think of them as zeros and ones or whatever. Usually they correspond to a physical system that has to very well separated states and then other kinds of computation. Like we'll get into more the way your brain works which it is. I think indisputably processing information but where the computation begins and ends is not anywhere near as well defined. It doesn't depend on these two levels. Here's zero here's a one. It's there's a lot of grey area that's usually referred to as analog computing also in conventional digital computers or digital computers. In general you have a concept of what's called arithmetic depth. Which is jargon that basically means how many sequential operations are performed to turn an input into an output and those kinds of computations in digital systems are highly cereal. Meaning that data streams. They don't branch off too far to the side. You do. You have to pull some information over there and access memory from here and stuff like that but by and large the computation proceeds in in a serial manner. It's not that way in the brain in the brain. You're always drawing information from different places. It's much more network based computing neurons. Don't wait for their turn. They fire when they're ready to fire. And so it's it's a synchronous so one of the other things about digital system is you're performing these operations on a clock and that's that's a crucial aspect of get rid of a clock in digital system. Nothing makes sense anymore. The rain has no clock it. It builds its own timescales based on its internal activity. So so you can think of. The brain is kind of a dislike network computation where it's actually really trivial. Simple computers Just a huge number of them. and they're networked. I would say it is complex sophisticated. Little processors and there's huge nerves are not are no offensive. I don't mean to offend. They're very complicated and beautiful. And but we often oversimplified and yes. They're actually extr. Like there's computational happening in europe right so i i would say to think of a transistor as the building block of a digital computer is accurate us a few transistors to make your logic gates you build up more. You build up processors from logic gates and things like that so you can think of a transistor as a fundamental building block or you can think of as we get into more highly paralyze architectures you can think of a processor as a fundamental building block to make the analogy to the neuro side of things. Noorani is not a transistor a neuron is a is a processor. It has synopsis. Even synapses are not transistors. but they are more they're lower on the information processing hierarchy in sense they do a bulk of the computation but neurons our entire processors in and of themselves that can take many different kinds of inputs on many different spatial temporal scales and produce many different kinds of outputs so that they can perform different computations in different contexts. This is where enters this distinction between computation and communication. She got the governor honest performing computation and the inter networking. The inter-connectivity of neurons is communication between neurons. And you see this. With very large server systems of in a mentioned offline talking to jim keller whose dreams to build giant computers that You know the the bottleneck. There's often the communication between the different pieces of competing so in this paper that we mentioned optoelectronic intelligence you say electrons excel computation while light is excellent for communication. Maybe you can linger in say in this context woody muba computation and communication. What what are electrons. What is light. And why do they accelerate those two tasks. Yeah just to. I speak do. Computation verse communication. I would say computation is essentially taking in some information performing operations on that information and producing new hopefully more useful information so for example Imagine you have a picture in front of you and there is a key and that's what you're looking for for whatever reason you wanna find the key we all want to find the key. So yeah The input is that that entire picture and the output might be the coordinates where the key is so. You've reduced total amount of information. You have but you found the useful information for you. In that present moment that's useful information and you think about this computation as controlled synchronous sequential. Not necessarily it could be. That could be how your system is performing the computation or it could be asynchronous. It there are lots of ways to find the key it depends it depends on the nature of the data depends on That's a very simplified example. A picture with a key in it. What about if you're in the world and you're trying to decide the best way to live your life. You know that you might be interactive and might be there might be some recurrence or yes. Absurd a synchrony. I gotta so. But there's an input as an output and you do some stuff in the middle that goes from the input. You've taken an information in output different information and hopefully reducing the total amount of information and extracting what's useful. Communication is then getting that information from the location at which it's stored because information is physical as landauer de emphasize so it it is more in one place and you need to get that information to another place so that something else can use it for whatever computation. It's working on. Maybe it's part of the same network in your all trying to solve the same problem but narain a over here. Just do something based on its inputs. And it's now sending that information across the network to another location so that would be the act of communication can you linger on mondo and saying information's physical roth. Landauer not to be confused with lev landau. Yeah and he. He made huge contributions to our understanding of the reversibility of information. And in this concept that energy has to be dissipated in computing win. The computation is irreversible. But if you can manage to make it reversible than you you don't need to expend energy but if you if you do expend energy to perform a computation there's sort of a minimal amount that you have to do in katie log to and it's all somehow related to the second law thermodynamics and that the universe isn't information process and we're living in assimilation. Okay sorry sorry for the tangent. So so that's the defining the distinction computation and communication. But let me say one more thing just to clarify communication. Ideally does not change the information it moves it from one place to another audit is preserved. Got it okay. All right that's beautiful so than the electron versus light distinction and why are electrons Good computation and light. Good at communication. Yes this is There's a lot that goes into it. I guess but just try to speak to the simplest part of it electrons. Interact strongly with one another. They're charged particles. So if i pile a bunch of them over here they're feeling a certain amount of force and they wanna they wanna move somewhere else. They're strongly interactive. You can also get them to sit. Still you can. An electron has amassed. So you can. you can cause it to be spatially localized so for computation. that's useful. Because now i can make these little devices that put a bunch of electrons over here and then i change the the state of gate like i've been describing put a different voltage on this gate and now i moved the electric over here now. They're sitting somewhere else. I have a physical mechanism with which i can represent information it spatially localized and have knobs that i can adjust to change where those electrons are what they're doing light by contrast photons of light which are the discrete packets of energy that by einstein they do not interact with each other Especially at low light levels. If you're in a medium and you have a high of bright highlight level you can get them to interact with each other through the interaction with the medium that they're in but that's that's a little bit more exotic for the purposes of this conversation. We can assume that photons don't interact with each other so if you have a bunch of them all propagating the same direction. They don't interfere with each other. If i wanna send if i if i have a communication channel and put one more photon on it. It doesn't screw up with those other doesn't change what those other ones were doing at all. So that's really useful for communication because that means you can sort of allow a lot of these photons to flow With without disruption of each other and they can they can branch real easily and things like that but it's not good for computation because it's very hard for this packet of light to change. This packet of light is doing they. They pass right through each other so in computation. You want to change information in a photons don't interact with each other. It's difficult to get them to change. The information represented by the others. The the fundamental differences is there also something ball the way they travel through different materials. Or is that just the a particular nearing no. It's not that's deep physics. I think so this gets back to electrons interact with each other. And photons don't so say say i'm trying to get a packet of information from me to you and we have a wire going between us in order for me to send electrons across that wire i i have to raise the voltage on my end of the wire and that means putting a bunch of charges on it and then that that charge packet has to propagate along the wire and it has to get all the way over to you. There's that wires going to have something that's called capacities which basically tells you how much charge you need to put on the wire in order to to raise the voltage on it and the capacity is going to be proportional to the length of the wire so the longer the the length of the wire is the more charge a have to put on it and the energy required to charge up that line. Move those electrons to you is also proportional to the capacities and goes as the voltage squared. So you get this huge penalty it you if you wanna send electrons across a wire over appreciable distances so distance is is an important thing here when you're doing communication distances and important thing so is the number of connections. I'm trying to make me to you. Okay one. That's not so bad. If i want to now send it to ten thousand other friends then then all those wires or adding tons of extra capacity now not only does it take forever to put the charge on that wire in. Raise the voltage on all those lines but it takes a ton of power and the number. Ten thousand is not randomly chosen. That's roughly how many connections each neuron in your brain make so it a neuron in your brain needs to send ten thousand messages every time it has something to say. You can't do that if you're trying to drive electrons from here to ten thousand different places. The brain does it in slightly different way which we can discuss. How can light achieve the ten thousand connections and wise it Why's it better in terms of like the energy use Required to use life for the communication of the ten thousand connect right right so now. Instead of trying to send electrons remedial i'm trying to send photons so i can make what's called a wave guide which is just a a simple piece of material could be glass like an optical fiber or silicon a on a on a chip and i have to i just have to inject photons into that wave guide an independent of how long it is independent of how many different connections i'm making it doesn't change the the voltage or anything like that. I have to raise up on the on the wire. So if i have one more connection if i add additional connections i need add more light to the wave guide because those photons need to split and go to different pads that makes sense but i don't have a capacity of penalty. Sometimes these are called wiring parasitic. There are no parasitic associated. With light in that same sense so was just. This might be a dumb question but a hi. How do i catch. A photon the other and What's is immaterial. is the palmer stuff. You were talking about for the for a different application for all for the photography mike. You catch photo. There's a lot of ways to catch. A photon his not a dumb question. It's a it's a deepen important question that basically defines a lot of the work that goes on in our group at nist One of my group leaders say unum has built his career around these. Superconducting single photon detectors. So if you're going to try to sort of reach a lower limit in detect just one particle of light superconductors. Come back into our conversation and just picture a simple device where you have current flowing through a superconducting wire and A lupu gun. Or let's say yes you have so you have a a superconducting wire. Go straight down like this and on on your loop branch you have a little am meter. Something that measures current. There's a resistor up there to go with me here so your current by using this so there's current flowing through that superconducting branch since there's a resistor over here all the current goes through the superconducting branch. Now a photon comes in strikes that superconductor. We talked about this. Superconducting macroscopic quantum state. That's going to be destroyed by. The energy of that photon so now. That branch of the circuit is resistant to and you've properly designed your circuit. So that the resistance on that. Superconducting branch is much greater than the other resistance. Now all of your current gonna go that way. You're an meter says. I just got a pulse of current. That must mean i detected a photon then where you broke that superconductivity. In a matter of a few nanoseconds it cools back-off dissipates that energy and the current flows back through that superconducting branch. This is a very powerful superconducting device that allows us to understand quantum states of. I didn't realize Loop like that could be sensitive to single photon and that That seems strange to me. Because i mean so what happens when you just barraged with photons if you put a bunch of photons in their essentially the same thing happens just drive it into the normal state becomes resisted and it's not particularly interesting. The has to be careful. How many photons you sound like you have to be very precise with your communication. Well it depends. So i would say that. That's actually in the in the application that we're trying to use these detectors for that's a feature because what we want is for If a if a neuron sends one photon to synoptic connection and one of the superconducting detectors is sitting there. You get this pulse of current and that synapse says events. That i'm going to do what i do. When there's a synapse event i'm gonna perform computations that kind of thing but if accidentally sent to there or three or five it does the exact same got it. And so that's this is this is how in the system that we're devising here. Communication is entirely binary. and that's what. I tried to emphasize a second ago. Communication should not change the information. You're not saying. Oh i got this kind of communication event four photons no we're not keeping track of that this neuron fired this up says that neuron fired. That's it so that's a. That's a noise filtering property of those detectors. However there are other applications where you'd rather know the exact number of photons that can be very useful in quantum computing with light and our group does a lot of work around another kind of superconducting censor. Call transition edge sensor that adrian alita in our group does a lot of work on that in that can tell you. Based on the amplitude of the current pulse you divert exactly how many photons were in that pulse so was useful for just one way that you can encode information. In quantum states of light is in the number of photons you can have what are called number states and a number state will have a well defined number of photons and maybe the output of your quantum computation encodes its information in the number of photons that are generated so if you have a detector that is sensitive to that. It's extremely useful can you achieve Like clock with photons or is that not important. Zor a synchronicity here. In general it can be important Clock distribution is a big challenge in especially large computational systems and so yes optical clocks optical clock distribution it is a is a very powerful technology. I don't know the state of that field right now. But i imagine that. If you're trying to distribute a clock across any appreciable size computational system you you wanna use light yet wonder how these giant systems work especially like Supercomputers do they need to do clock distribution or are they doing more at hawk parallel. A concurrent programming like there's some kind of locking mechanisms or something that the fascinating question but the let's zoom in this very particular question of Computation on a processor and communication between processors. So what does this system look like that. You're envisioning One of the places. You're envisioning is in the paper on optoelectronic intelligence. So what are we talking about. Are we talking about something that starts to look a lot like the human brain or does it still look a lot like a computer or the size of this thing. Go inside a smartphone. or is he said. Does it go inside at something. That's more like a house like all. What should we be imagining. What are you thinking about when you're thinking about these fundamental Systems let me introduce the word neuromorphic. There's this concept of neuromorphic computing. Where would that. Broadly refers to is Computing based on the information processing principles of the brain and as digital computing. Seems to be pushing toward some fundamental performance limits people are considering architectural advances drawing inspiration the brain more distributed parallel network kind of architectures and stuff. And so there's this continuum of of neuromorphic from things that are pretty similar to digital computers. But maybe there are more cores and the way they send messages is a little bit more like the way brain neurons sense bikes. But for the most part it's still digital electronics. And then you know you have some things in between where maybe you're using transistors. But now you're starting to use him instead of in a digital way in an analog way and so you're trying to get those circuits to behave more like neurons and that's a little bit quite quite a bit more on the neuromorphic side of things. You're trying to get your circuits although they're still based on silicon you trying to get them to perform operations that are highly analogous to the operations in the brain. That's where a great deal of work is in neuromorphic computing people. A yakimo into very and gir- calemburg jennifer hasler countless others. It's it's a rich and exciting field Going back to carver mead in the late nineteen eighties. And then all the way on the other. Extreme of the continuum is where you say. I'll give up anything related to transistors or semiconductors or anything like that. I'm not not starting with the assumption. That i'm going to use any kind of conventional computing hardware and instead what i wanna do is try and understand what makes the brain powerful at the kind of information processing it does and i went to think from first principles about what hardware is best going to enable us to capture those information processing principles in an artificial system. And that's where i live. That's where that's where. I'm doing my exploration these days. So what are the first principles of brain like. Computation communication right. Yeah this is. This is so important. And i'm glad we booked fourteen hours for this because i only have thirteen okay so the brain is notoriously complicated. And i think that's an important part of why it white can do what it does but okay let me let me try to break it down. starting the devices neurons as i as i said before they're sophisticated devices in and of themselves and synopsis are two they they can Change their state based on the activity. So they they adapt over time. That's crucial to the way the brain works. They don't just adapt on one timescale. They can adopt on myriad timescales from the the spacing between pulses the spacing between spikes that come from neurons all the way to the age of the organism also relevant. Perhaps i think the most important thing that's guided my thinking is the the network structure of the brain so which can also be adjusted yards. Different scottsdale yes. So so you're you're making new. You're changing the strength of contacts. You're changing the spatial distribution of them although spatial distribution doesn't change that much once you're a mature organism but that network structure is is really crucial. So let me dwell on that second You can't talk about the brain without emphasizing that most of the neurons in the the neo cortex earth prefrontal cortex the part of the brain. That we think is most responsible for high level reasoning and things like that. Those neurons make thousands of connections. So you have this network that is highly interconnected and i think it's safe to say that one of the primary reasons that they make so many different connections is that allows information to be communicated very rapidly from any spot in the network to any other spot in the network. So that's a. That's a sort of spatial aspect of it. You can quantify this In terms of concepts that are related to fractionals scale and variants. Which i think is a very beautiful concept. So what i mean by. That is kind of no matter. What spatial scale. You're looking at in the brain within certain bounds. You see the same general statistical pattern. So if i draw box around some region of cortex most of the connections that those neurons within that box make are going to be within the box to each other in their local neighbourhood and that sort of called clustering loosely. Speaking but a non negligible fraction is in go outside of that box. And if i draw bigger box the pattern is going to be exactly the same. So you have the scale and variance and you also have a a non vanishing probability of a neuron making the connection very far away so suppose you you wanna plot the probability of neurons making a connection as a function of distance if that were an exponential function it go to the minus radius over some characteristic radius and it would it would drop off up to some certain radius. The probability would be reasonable close to one and then a beyond that characteristic length are zero it would it would drop off sharply and so that would mean that the neurons in your brain or a really localized and that's not what we observe in instead. What you see is that the probability of making a longer distance connection it does drop off but it drops off as a power law so the probability that you're going to have a connection at some radius. Our goes our to the minus some power nuts more. That's what we see with with forces in nature like the electromagnetic force between two particles or gravity goes as one over the radius squared. So this and frog does. I love that. There's a like a fractional dynamics of the brain that zuma the draw the box and you increase the box by certain step sizes. You're gonna see the same statistics. I think that's probably leave very important to the way the brain processes information. It's not just in the spatial domain. It's also in the temporal domain. And what i mean by that is incredible that this emerged through the evolutionary process that potentially somehow connected to the way the physics of the universe. Works i. I couldn't agree more. It's deepened fascinating subject. That i i hope to be able to spend some of my life studying. You think you need to solve understand this. This frackdown nature in order to understand intelligence and come in Cashing they're deeply intertwined. Yes i think. Power laws are right at the heart of it so just to just to push that went through. The same thing happens in the temporal domain. So suppose you had Suppose you're your neurons in your brain were always oscillating at the same frequency. Then the probability of finding a neuron oscillating as a function of frequency would be. This narrowly peaked function around that certain characteristic frequency that's not at all what we see the probability of finding neurons oscillating or pulsing producing spikes at a certain frequency is again a power law. Which means there's no there's no defined scale of the temporal activity in the brain. It's you don't what at what speed your thoughts occur. Well there's a there's a fast speed they can occur in that is limited by communication and other other things but there's not a characteristic scale we have thoughts on all temporal scales from you know a few tens of milliseconds which is physiologically limited by our devices. Compare that to tens of pico second-set he talked about in superconductors. All the way up to the lifetime of the organism. You can still think about things that happened to you when you were a kit of. You wanna be happy than across multiple organisms in the entire human civilization. you have thought that span organisms right. Yes taking it to that level. If you're willing to see the entirety of the human species a single organism of the collective intelligence that to spatial and temporal scale their starts occurring. And then if you look at not just the human species but the entirety of life on earth as as an organism with thoughts that occurring that greater jurists. The fiscal thoughts. There's different spatial and temporal scale. There this is getting very suspicious. Now hold on region. I just wanna just tire. Bo is and say that. The the spatial and temporal aspects are intimately interrelated with each other so activity between neurons. That are very close to each other is more likely to happen on this. This faster timescale and information is going to propagate any encompass more of the brain more of your courtesies different modules in the brain are going to be engaged in information processing on longer timescales. So there's this concept of information integration where most neurons are neurons are specialized any given neuron or any cluster of neuron has its specific purpose but they're also They're also very much integrated so you you have neurons that specialized but share their information and so that happens through. These fractional nested oscillations that occur across spatial and temporal scales. I think capturing those dynamics in hardware to me that's the goal of of neuromorphic computing. So does the need to look so first of all that's fascinating. We stated to clear principles here now. Does it have to look like the brain outside of those principles as well. What characteristics have to look like the human brain can be something very different will. It depends on what you're trying to use it for. And so i think a lot of the community asks that question a lot. What are you gonna do with it. And i i completely get it. I think that's a very important question and it's also sometimes not the most helpful question. What if what you do with his study. What if you just want to see What does it what you have to build into your hardware in order to observe these dynamical principles. So and also i ask. Sometimes i asked myself that question every day. And i'm not sure i'm able to answer like woody. What are you. What are you gonna do with this particular in your morphing machine. So suppose what we're trying to do with it is built something that thinks. We're not trying to get it to make us any money or drive a car. Maybe we'll be able to do that but that's not our goal. Our goal is to see if we can get the same types of behaviors that we observe in our own brain and by behaviors. In this sense what. I mean the behaviors of the components the neurons network. That kind of stuff. I think there's another element that i didn't really hit on that that you also have to build into this and those are architectural principles they have to do with the the hierarchical modular construction of the network and without getting too lost in jargon the main point that i think is relevant there. Let me try and illustrate with cartoon picture of the architecture the brain so in the brain you have the the cortex which is sort of this outer sheet It's actually you can delayed structure you can. If you can take it out of your brain you could unroll it on the table and it would be about the size of a pizza sitting there and that's a module it it does certain things it it processes as your bassac would say it processes the what of what's going on around you but you have another really crucial module that's called the hippocampus and that that network is structured entirely differently. First of all this this cortex that described ten billion neurons in there so numbers matter here and they're they're organized in that sort of power law distribution where the probability of making a connection drops off as a power law in space. The hippocampus is another module. That's important for understanding. How where you are when you are Keeping track of of your your position in space and time and that network is very much random so the probability of making a connection. It almost doesn't even drop off as a function of distance. It's the same probability that you'll make it here to over there but there are only about one hundred million neurons there so you can have that huge densely connected module because it's not so big and the the neo cortex the cortex and the hippocampus. They talk to each other constantly. And that communication is largely facilitated by. What's called the dallas. I'm not a neuroscientist here. I'm trying to do my best to recite the picture of the brain gudgeon. Yeah something like that. So this is is coordinating the activity between the neo cortex and the hippocampus and making sure that they they talk to each other at the right time and send messages. That will be useful to one another so this all taken together is called the philan- critical complex and it seems like building something like that is going to be crucial to capturing the types of activity were looking because though those responsibilities though separate modules they do different things. That's gotta be central to achieving these states of efficient information integration across space and time by the way i am able to achieve the state by watching Simulations visualizations of the thumb acoustical complex. There's a few people. I forget from where they've created these incredible visual illustrations of like visual stimulation from the eye. Or something like that. It in this image jake flowing through the brain. Wow i haven't seen i gotta check that. So it's one of those things you find the stuff in the world and you see like i knew like one thousand views these like these visualizations of the human brain processing information and like key. 'cause there's This chemistry there could because this act from actual human brains. I don't know how they're doing the coloring but they're able to actually trace the Like different the chemical and the electrical signals throughout the brain and the visual thing is like whoa because it looks kinda like the universe. I mean the whole thing's just in cri-. I recommend it highly a probably posted. A link to begin can just look for One of the things they simulate the Thelma court Complex and just visualization. You can find that yourself on youtube. It's it's beautiful The the other half for you is How does memory play into all of this because all the signals sending back and forth. That's kind of like That's computation and communication. But that's kind of like you know processing of inputs apas to produce outputs in the system. That's kinda may be reasoning. Maybe there's some kind of occurrence but like is there a storage mechanism these think about in the context in your computing. Yeah absolutely so. That's gotta be central. You have to have a way that you can store memories and there are a lot of different kinds of memory in the brain. That's yet another example of how it's not a simple system so there's one kind of memory one way of talking about memory Usually starts in the context of hop field. Networks you're lucky to talk to. John hartfield on this program but the basic idea there is working. Memory is stored in the dynamical patterns of activity between neurons. And you can. You can think of a certain pattern of activity as an attractor meaning if you put in some signal that similar enough to other previously experienced signals Like that then. You're going to converge to the same network dynamics and you'll see these neurons. participate in the same network patterns of activity that they have in the past. So you can talk. About the probability that different inputs will allow you to converge to different basins of attraction. And you might think of that. As oh i saw this face and then i excited this network pattern of activity because last time i saw that face that you know what some movie in that. That's a famous person. That's on the screen or something like that so so that's one memory storage mechanism but crucial to the ability to imprint. Those memories in your brain is the ability to change the strength of connection between one neuron and another that synoptic connection between them so synoptic weight update is a massive field of neuroscience and neuromorphic computing. As well so there are two polls to that on that spectrum. One in okay so in more in the language of machine learning we would talk about supervised and unsupervised learning in when. I'm trying to tie that down to neuromorphic computing. I will use a definition of supervised learning which basically means that external user. The person who's controlling this hardware has some knob that they can tune to change each of this optic weights depending on whether or not the network's doing what you wanted to do. Whereas what. I mean in this conversation when i say unsupervised learning is that those synoptic weights are are dynamically changing in your network based on nothing that the users doing nothing that there's no wire from the outside going into any of those synapses. The network itself is reconfiguring those synoptic weights based on physical properties. That you've built into devices. So if if the synapse receives a pulse from here and that causes the neuron spike some circuit built in there with no help from me or anybody else. Adjust the weight. In a way that makes it more likely to Store the useful information excite the useful network patterns and makes it less likely that random noise useless. Communication events will have important Effect on the network activities. There's memory and coded in the weight sir the synoptic weights yet about the formation of something. That's not often done machine learning the formation of new synoptic connections right. Well that seems so again. Not not a neuroscientist here but my reading of the literature is that that's particularly crucial in early stages of brain development. Where newborn is Born with tons of extra synoptic connections. And it's actually pruned over time. So the number of synapses decreases as opposed to growing new long distance connections. It is possible in the brain to grow new neurons and Assign new stop to connections. But it doesn't seem to be the primary mechanism by which the brain is learning so for example. Like right now sitting here talking to you. You say lots of interesting things. And i learned what i learned from. You and i can remember things that you just said. And i didn't grow new accidental connections down to new synopsis to to enable those it's plasticity mechanisms in the between the synoptic connections between neurons that enabled me to learn on that timescale. So at the very least that you can sufficiently approximate that with just wait updates. You don't need to form you connection. I would say wait. Updates are a big part of it. I also think there's more because broadly speaking when we're doing machine learning our networks say we're talking about feed forward deep neural networks. The temporal domain is not really part of it okay. You're going to put in an image and you're going get out classification and you're going to do that as fast as possible. You care about time but time is not part of the essence of this thing really Whereas in spiking neural networks but we see in the brain time is as crucial is space in their intimately. Intertwined tried to say and so adaptation on on different time scales is important not not just in memory for formation although it plays a key role there but also in just keeping the activity in a useful dynamic range so you have other plasticity mechanisms not just wait update or at least not on the timescale of many action potentials but even on the shorter timescale so a synapse can become much less efficacious it can. It can transmit a weaker signal after the second third fourth That can second third. Fourth action potential to occur in a sequence so that's what's called short-term synoptic plasticity which is a form of learning. You're learning that. I'm getting too much stimulus from looking at something bright right now so i need to tone that down you know There's also another really important mechanism in learning. It's called meta plasticity. What that seems to be is a away that you change not the weights themselves but the rate at which the weights change so when i am in say a lecture hall and my this is a potentially terrible cartoon example bullets. I'm in a lecture hall and it's time to learn right so my brain will release more perhaps dopamine or some neuro modulator. That's gonna change. Though the rate at which synoptic plasticity occurs so that can make me more sensitive to learning at certain times. More sensitive to overriding previous information and less sensitive at other times and finally as long as i'm rattling off the list. I think another concept that falls in the category of learning or memory. Adaptation is home stasis or homies static adaptation where neurons have the ability to control their firing rate so if one neuron is just like blasting way too much it will naturally tone itself down. It's it's threshold will adjust so that it's it stays in a useful dynamic range and we see that that's that's captured in in deep. Neural networks. where you don't just change the snapped quits. But you can also move the thresholds of the simple neurons in those models and so two To achieve the spurs biking your networks. You want to use like you want to implement the first principles that you mentioned of the temporal and spatial frontal dynamics here so you can you can communicate locally can communicate across much greater distances. And do the same thing in space and do the same thing and time now you have like a chapter called superconducting hardware for your morfitt computing. So what are some ideas that integrate some of the things. We've been talking about in terms of the first principles of near morphou computing and the idea is the outline in optoelectronic intelligence. Yeah so let me start. I guess on the communication side of things because that's what led us down this track in the first place by us. I'm talking about my my team of colleagues at nist. You know sayyed. Han brace primavera. Sonia buckley jeff giles adam mikan to name alex tait name a few are group's leaders say nam enrich mirren. We've all contributed to this. This is not. This is not me saying necessarily just the things that that i proposed but sort of where our teams thinking has evolved over the years. Can i can't quickly ask what is nist. And where's this amazing group of people located nist is the national institute of standards and technology. They the the larger facility is out in gaithersburg maryland. Our team is located in boulder colorado We nist is a is a of federal agency under the department of commerce. We do a lot with by we. I mean other people at nist do a lot with standards. You know Making sure that we understand the system of units international system of units precision measurements. There's a lot going on in Electrical engineering materials science and historic mean. It's like this one of those. it's like. Mit or something like that. It has a reputation for many decades of just being this really A place where there's a lot of brilliant people have done a lot of amazing things but in terms of the people in your team in this team of people involved in concert talking about now. I'm just curious what kind of disciplines we're talking about. what is it mostly physicists. And electrical engineers some material scientists But i would say yeah. I think physicists and electrical engineers. My background is in photonics. The use of light for technology. So coming from there. I i tend to have found colleagues that are more from that background although adam khan more of a superconducting electronics background. We need a diversity of folks. This project is sort of cross disciplinary. I would love to be working more with neuroscientist and things But we haven't we haven't reached that scale yet but your folks on the hardware side which requires all all the you mentioned. Yeah and then of course sizes may be a source of inspiration for some of the long-term vision. I would actually call it more than inspiration. I would call it sort of A road map. You know we're not trying to to build exactly the brain. But i don't think it's enough to just say oh neurons kinda work like that. Let's kind do that thing. I mean we're. We're very much following the concepts that the cognitive sciences have laid out for us. Which i believe is is a really robust roadmap. I mean just on a little bit of a tangent. It's often stated that we just don't understand the brain and so it's really hard to replicate it because we we just don't know what's going on there and maybe five or seven years ago i would have said that but as i got more interested in the subject i have read more of the neuroscience literature and i was just taken by the exact opposite sentence. I can't believe how much they know about this. I can't believe how mathematically rigorous and sort of theoretically complete a lot of the concepts are that's not to say we understand consciousness or we understand the self for anything like that but why is the brain. What is the brain doing. And why is it doing those things we have a neuroscientist have a wad of answers to those questions. So there's a lot if you're a hardware designer that just wants to get going whoa. It's pretty clear which direction to go in. i think okay So a low. A love the optimism behind but In the implementation these systems that uses super super super connectivity. Heidi make it happen so me. It starts with thinking about the communication network. You know for sure that the ability of each neuron to communicate. Many thousands of colleagues across the network is indispensable. I take that as a core principle of my my architecture my thinking on the subject coming from coming from a background in photonics. It was very natural to say okay. We're gonna use light for communication just in case listeners. May not know light is often use in communication. I mean if you think about radio that's light. It's long wavelengths but it's electromagnetic radiation. It's the same. It's the same physical phenomenon obeying exactly the same maxwell's equations and then all the way down to a fiber fiber optics now. You're using visible or near infrared wavelengths of light but the way you send messages across the ocean is now contemporary over optical-fibers so using light for communication is not a stretch it. It makes perfect sense so you might ask well. Why don't you use light for communication in a conventional microchip in the answer. That is i believe physical. It's v we if we had a light source on a silicon chip that was as simple as a transistor we would. There would not be a processor in the world that didn't use light for communication at least above some distance. Hummy light sources are needed. Oh you need to let source at every single point a light source per neuron per neuron per per little but then if you could have a really small and nice light source. Your definition of neuron could be flexible. Could be yes yes. Sometimes it's helpful me to say in this hardware. Noorani is that entity which has a light source. That i can then there was light. Explain more about that but Somehow this like rhymes with consciousness because the people often say the light of consciousness so that consciousness that which is conscious. I got it. That's not my quote. That's me as my quote. See that quote comes from my background. Yours is in optics mine in light minds in darkness. Good so what's the point i was making. There is that if it was easy to manufacture light sources along with transistors on a silicon chip. They would be everywhere now and it's not easy. It's people have been trying for decades in. It's actually extremely difficult. I think an important part of our research is is dwelling right at that at that spot there. So is a physics or engineering. Visit so okay. So it's it's physics. I think so what i mean by that is as as we discussed. Silicon material of choice for transistors. And it's very difficult to imagine that that's going to change anytime soon. Silicon is notoriously bad at emitting light and that has to do with the immutable properties of silicon itself. The way that the energy bands are structured and silken. You're never going to make silicon efficient as a light source at room temperature without doing very exotic things that degrade its ability to interface nicely with those transistors in the first place. So that's that's like one of these things where it's why it. Why hasn't nature dealing us that blow you. Give us these beautiful transistors. And you give us all the motivation to use light for communication. But you don't give us a light source so well okay you do. Give us a light source compound. Semiconductors like we talked about back in the beginning an element from group three in an element from group five for away where every other lattice site switches. Which element is those have much better properties for generating light you put electrons in light comes out. Almost one hundred percent of the the electron hold. It can be efficient. I'll take your hookah. However i say it's physics not engineering. Because it's very difficult to get those compound semiconductor light sources situated with your silicon in order to do that ion implantation. That talked about at the beginning. High temperatures are required. So you you've got to make all of your transistors first. And then put the compound. Semiconductors on top of their. you can't grow them afterwards because that requires high. Temperature it screws up all your transistors. You try and stick them on there. They don't have the same lattice constant. The spacing between adams's different enough that it just doesn't work so nature does not seem to be telling us that. Hey go ahead. And combine light sources with your digital switches for conventional digital computing a convention digital computing will often require smaller scale. I guess in terms of like smartphone like so in which kind of systems can does nature hint though we can use Light and photons communication. Well so let me just try and be clear. You can use light for communication in digital systems. Just the light sources are not intimately integrated with the silicon you. You manufacture all the silicon. You have your microchip plunkett down. And then you manufacture your light sources separate chip completely different process made in different foundry and then you put those together at the package level. So now you have you have some. I would say a great deal of architectural limitations that are introduced by that sort of package level integration as opposed to monolithic on the same chip integration. But it's still a very useful thing to do. And that's where i had done some work previously before he came to this. There's a project led by vladimir rich. That now spun out into a company called. Ar labs led by mark waid chen sun. Where they're doing exactly that. So you have your light source chip your silicon chip. Whatever it may be doing. Maybe it's digital electronics. Maybe at some other control purpose something and the silicon chip drives the the light source chip and modulate the intensity of the lights. You can get data out of the package on an optical fiber and that's still gives you tremendous advantages in bandwidth as opposed to sending those signals out over electrical lines. But it is somewhat julia to my that they have to be integrated this package level and those those people are so smart. Those are my my colleagues. That i respect a great deal. So it's it's very clear that it's not just. They're making a bad choice. This is what physics telling us. It just wouldn't make any sense to to try to stick them together at. Yeah so there even if as difficult it's easier than the alternative on flash. I think so. Yes and i again. I need to go back and make sure that. I have not taken the wrong. I'm not saying that. The pursuit of integrating compound semiconductors with silicon is rootless and shouldn't be pursued it should and people are doing great work may allow and john bowers others. They're they're doing it in. They're making progress but to my i. It doesn't look like that's ever going to be just the standard monolithic light source on silicon process. I i just don't see it. Yes nature kinda points. The way usually fuel resists nature. You're going to do a lot more and it's gonna be expensive and not scalable got it but okay so let me. Let's go like far into the future. That's imagine this gigantic near morphing computing system that Simulates all realities currently is mentioned matrix force so this thing This powerful computer. How does it operate like so. So what what are the neurons. What is the communication. What's your sense all right so let me let me now. After spending forty five minutes trashing light source. Integration with silicon. Let me now say why. I'm bill basing my entire life professional life on integrating light sources with electrons. I think the game is completely different when you're talking about superconducting electronics for several reasons Let me try to go through them. One is that as i mentioned. It's difficult to integrate. Those compound semiconductor light sources with silicon with silicon is a requirement that is introduced by the fact that using conducting electrons in superconducting electronics. You're still gonna start with silicon wafer but it's it's just the bread for your sandwich in a lotta ways. You're not using that silicon in precisely the same way for the electronics. You're now depositing. Superconducting materials on top of that. The prospect for integrating light sources with that kind of an electronic process are certainly less explored. But i think much more promising. Because you don't need those lights sources to be intimately integrated with the transistor's that's where the problems come up. They don't need to be lattice matched to the silicon all that kind of stuff instead. It seems possible that you can take those compound semiconductor light sources stick them on the silicon wafer and then grow your superconducting electronics. On the top of that. It's at least not obviously going to fail so the computation would be done on the Superconducting materials while yes the computation has done in the superconducting electronics and the light sources receive signals that say hey neuron reach threshold. Produce a pulse of light. Send it out to all your downstream synoptic connections. Those are against superconductors elec superconducting electronics. Perform your computation. And you're off to the races. Your network works. So then if we can rewind real quick so what are the limitations of the challenges of superconducting electronics. When we think about constructing these kinds of systems so actually let me. Let me say a one other thing about the light sources. And then i'll then i'll move on. I promise because this is probably tedious. I this is super exciting. Okay one other thing about light. Sources i said that silicon is terrible at emitting photons and that's just not what is meant to do however the game is different when you're out low temperature if you're working with superconductors you have to be at low temperature because they don't work otherwise when you're at four kelvin. Silicon is not obviously a terrible light source. It's still not as efficient compound. Semiconductors but it might be good enough for this application the final thing that mention about that is again leveraging superconductors as i said in in a different context. Superconducting detectors can receive one. Single photon in that conversation. I failed to mention that. Semiconductors can also received photons. That's the primary mechanism by which it's done a camera in your phone that's receptive to visible light. It's receiving photons it's based on silica or you can make it in different semiconductors for different wavelengths but it requires is on the order of a thousand few thousand photons to receive a pulse now when you're using superconducting detector you need one photon exactly one. I mean one or more So the fact that you're synapses can now be based on superconducting detectors. Instead of semi-conducting detectors brings the light levels that are required down by some three orders of magnitude. So now you don't need good light sources. You can have the world's worst light sources. As long as they spit out a few thousand photons everytime neuron fires you have the heart. You have the hardware principles in place that you might be able to perform this optoelectronic integration to me. Optoelectronic integration has. It's just so enticing. We want to be able to leverage electronics for computation. life for communication working with silicon microelectronics at room temperature. That has been exceedingly difficult. And i hope that when we moved to the superconducting domain targeted. Different application space. That is neuromorphic instead of digital and use superconducting detectors. Maybe optoelectronic integration comes to us. Because there's a bunch. Of course it was a one is temperature so in these kind of hybrid heterogeneous systems was the temperature. Would some of the constraints to operation here did. Does it all have to be callans. Well four kelvin. everything has to be at four county. Okay so what are the other engineering challenges of making this kind of optoelectronic systems. Let me just dwell on that for kelvin. For a second because some people here for kelvin. Need just get up and leave. They just say i don't. I'm not doing it you know and to me. That's very earth centric species centric. We live and three hundred kelvin. So we want our technology. Stop right there too. I totally get it. It was zero celsius. Zero celsius is two hundred. Seventy three calcutt. So we're talking very very cold here. This is in boston. Call real cold. Yes iberia We're not just for reference. The temperature of the cosmic microwave background is about two point seven kelvin. So we're still warmer than deep spa. Good so that. When the universe dies out it'll be colder for. It's already colder than four k. In the in the expanses you know you don't have to get that far away from the earth in order to to drop down to not far from forty you're saying is the aliens that live at the edge of the observable universe are using superconducting material for their computation. They don't have to live at the edge of the universe. The aliens that are more advanced than us in their solar system are doing this in their asteroid belt. We can get to that a because of the the can get that to temperature easier than sure. Yeah all you have to do is reflect the sunlight away and you have a huge head start so the sun is the problem here. Lucas warm here on earth. Yeah okay okay. So can you So how do we get to four k. Was well the okay. So what are different kinds of forecast temperature want to say about temperature. Is that if you can swallow that. If you can say all right i give up applications that have to do with my cell phone and the convenience of a laptop on a train and you instead for me. I'm very much in. The scientific had space. I'm not looking at products not looking at what. This'll be useful to sell to consumers instead. I'm thinking about scientific questions will. It's just not that bad to have to work at for kelvin. We do it all the time in our lives at nist. And so does i mean the for reference the entire quantum computing sector usually has to work at something. Like one hundred million kelvin. Fifty million kelvin. So now you're talking of another factor of one hundred even colder than that a fraction of a degree and everybody seems to think quantum computing is going to take over the world that it's so much more to have to get that extra factor of dennard whatever colder and yet. It's not stopping people from investing in in that area and by investing i mean putting their research into it as well as venture capital or whatever so so based on the energy of what. You're commenting on getting sense. That's one of the criticism of this approach. Is forecast for kelvin. is is a big negative. It is the showstopper for a lot of people. They just i mean and understandably i am not saying that that that's not a consideration of course it is for for some okay so different motivations for different people in the academic world. Suppose you spent your whole life learning about silicon microelectronic circuits you you send it designed to a foundry they send you back chip and you go tested at your tabletop. And now i'm saying here. Now learn how to use all these cryogenics. You can do that at four kelvin. No come on. It is that that's still momentum. The titanic of the turning. But you're saying that's not too much of finding one we're looking at large systems in in the gang potentially get from them. That's not that much of a cost and when you want to answer the scientific question about what are the physical limits of cognition. Well the physical limits they don't if you're at four kelvin if you can perform cognition at a scale orders of magnitude beyond any room temperature technology but you gotta get cold to do it. You're gonna do it and and to me. That's the interesting application space. Not even an application space. That's the interesting scientific paradigms. So i personally am not going to let low. Temperature stopped me from realizing a technological domain or realm that is achieving in most ways. Everything else that i that. I'm looking for in hardware so that okay. that's a big one is. There are other kinds of engineering challenges. That you envision it. Yeah yeah so. Let me take a moment here because i haven't really described what i mean by neuron or a network in this particular hardware yet. Do not talk about loop neurons and there's so many fascinating but you just have so many amazing papers that people should definitely check out and The titles alone are just killer so anyway go ahead right so let me say big picture based on optics photonics for communication superconducting electronics for computation. How how does this all work so a neuron in this in this hardware platform can be thought of as circuits based on josephson junctions like we talked about before where every time a a photon comes in. So let let's start. By talking about a synapse a synapse receives a photon one or more from from a different neuron and it converts that optical signal to an electrical signal the amount of current that adds to a lube is controlled by the synoptic weight. So as i said before. You're popping flux into a loop right so a photon comes in it. Hits a superconducting single. Photon detector one. Photon the absolute physical minimum. That you can communicate from one place to another with light and detector than converse fenton electrical signal and the modern signal is correlated with some kind of wait. Yeah so the synoptic. Wait what tell you. How many flux onto you pop into the loop. It's an analog number. We're doing analog computation. Now working linger on what. The heck is affleck's on. I was supposed to know this is. This is a funny Is like the big bang is is a funny word for something deeply technical. Now let's let's try to avoid using the word flexible because it's not actually necessary when a when a when a photon say though so So it's very necessary. I would say when a when a photon hits that. Superconducting single photon detector. Current is added to a superconducting loom. And the the amount of current that you add can is an analog value can have eight bit equivalent resolutions something like that ten bits. Maybe as amazing by the way this is starting to make a lot more sense when you're using superconductors for this. The energy of that circulating current is is less than the energy that photons so your your your energy budget is not destroyed by doing this analog computation so now in the language of of a neuroscientist you would say that your posts synoptic signal. You have this current being stored in a loop. You can decide what you wanna do with it. Most likely you're going to have it decay exponentially so every single synapse is going to have some given time constant and that's determined by by putting some resistor in that in that superconducting loop so synapse a synapse event occurs when photon strikes. A detector adds current to that loop. It decays over time. That's the post and optic signal. Then you can process that in dendritic tree. Bryce primavera and i have a paper That we've submitted about that For the more neuroscience oriented people. There's a lot of dendritic processing a lot of plasticity mechanisms. You can implement with essentially exactly the same circuits. You have this one simple building blocks circuit that you can use for a synapse for denver right for the neuron cell body for all the plasticity functions. It's all based on the same building block just tweaking a couple parameter so this basic building block has both an optical and electrical component and then is you just build arbitrary large systems that close. If you're not at fault for thinking that. That's what. I meant what i what i should say. Is that if you wanted to be a synapse. You tack a detector. Superconducting detector onto the front of it. And if you want to be anything else. There's no optical component got at the front optics in the front electrical stuff in the bat electrical. Yeah in the processing and the the output signal that it sends to the next stage of processing further though the dendritic trees is electric. It's all electrical. it's all electrical in the super gang. Jemaine for anybody. Who's up on their superconducting circuits. It's just based on a dc squid. The most ubiquitous it's which is a circuit composed of two josephson junctions. So it's it's a very bread and butter kind of thing and then the only place where you go beyond that is the neuron cell body itself. It's receiving all these electrical inputs from the synapses or rights. Or however you've structured that particular unique neuron and when it reaches its threshold which occurs by driving a josephson junction above its critical current. It produces a pulse of current which starts an amplification sequence voltage amplification. That produces light out of a transmitter. So one of one of our colleagues. Adam khan and sonia buckley's well did a lot of work on the the light sources and the amplifiers that drive the current and produce sufficient voltage to drive current through that now semiconductor. So that light source is the semi-conducting part of a neuron and that so the neurons reach threshold. It produces a pulse of light that light then fans out across a network of wave guides to reach all the downstream synoptic terminals. That do perform this process themselves. So it's probably worth explaining. What a network of wave guides is because a lot of listeners aren't gonna know that. Look the papers by jeff child on this one but basically like can be guided in a a simple basically wire of usually an insulating material so silicon silicon night-ride different different kinds of glass. Just like an a fiber optic. it's glass silicon dioxide. That makes it a little bit big. We want to bring these down so we use different materials like silicon ni- tried but basically just imagine a rectangle of some material that just goes and branches Forms different different branch points that target different sub regions of the network. You can transition between layers of these our talking about building in the third dimension which is absolutely crucial. So that's what wave that's great What will why. The dimensions crucial. Okay so yes you were talking about. What are some of the technical limitations. One of the things that i believe we have to grapple with is that our brains are miraculously compact for the number of neurons. Earn our brain. It sure does fitness small volume as you would have to. If we're going to be biological organisms that are resource limited and things like that any kind of hardware neuron is almost certainly going to be much bigger than that if it is of comparable complexity even whether it's based on silicon transistors. Okay a transistor seven nanometers. That doesn't mean a semiconductor-based neuron is seven nanometers. They're big the the. They require many transistors. Different other things like capacitors and things that store charge they end up being on the order of one hundred microns by hundred microns. And it's difficult to get them down any smaller than that. The same is true for superconducting neurons. And the same is true if we're trying to use light for communication even if you're using electrons for communication you you have these wires where okay. The elect. The size of an electron might be angstrom. But the size of a wire is not angstrom. And if you try and make it narrower the resistance just goes up so it it. you don't actually win to communicate over long distances. You need your wires to be microns wide and the same thing for wave guides. Wave guides are essentially limited by the wavelength of light in. That's going to be about a micron. So whereas compare that to an axe on the analogous component in the brain which is ten nanometers in diameter. something like that they. They're bigger when they need to communicate over long distances but grappling with the size of these structures is inevitable and crucial and so in order to make systems of comparable scale to the human brain by scale. Here i mean number of interconnected neurons. You absolutely have to be using the third spatial dimension and that means on the wafer you need multiple layers of both active and passive components active. I mean superconducting electronic circuits. That are performing computations and passive. I mean these wave guides that are routing the optical signals to different places. You have to be able to stack those if you can get to something like ten planes of each of those or maybe not even ten. Maybe five six something like that. Then you're in business now you can get millions of neurons on a wafer but that's not. That's not anywhere close to the brain scale. In order to get to the scale the human brain you're going to have to also use the third dimension in the sense that entire wafers need to be stacked on top of each other with fiber optic communication between them and we need to be able to fill a space the size of this table with stacked wafers. And that's when you can get to some ten billion neurons like you human brain. And i don't think that's specific to the optoelectronic approach that we're taking. I think that applies to any hardware where you're trying to reach commensurate scale and complexity is the human brain. So you need that fractional stacking stacking on the way for and stacking of the wafers and then whatever the system that combined this stacking of the tables with the way for his and it has to be fractured all the way. You're exactly right because that's the only way that you can efficiently. Get information from a small point. To across the whole network it has to have the power law conic ten photons optics throughout. Yeah absolutely once you're at this scale to me. It's just obvious. Of course you're using for communication. You have fiber optics given to us. You know from nature so simple the the thought of even trying to any kind of electrical communication just doesn't it doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying it's wrong. I don't know. But that's where i'm coming from. So let's return loop neurons. Why are they called loop neurons yet. The term loop neurons comes from the fact like we've been talking about that. They rely heavily on these superconducting loops. So even in a lot of forms of digital competing with superconductors storing A signal in a superconducting loop is a a primary technique in this particular case. It's it just loops everywhere you look. So the the strength of synoptic weight is going to be set by the state the amount of current circulating in a loop that is coupled to synapse so memory is implemented as current circulating in a superconducting loop. The coupling between say a synoptic identified or synapse in the neuron. Cell body occurs through loop loop coupling through transformer so current circulating in synapse is going to induce current in in a different lupu receiving loop in the in the neuron cell body so since all of the computation is happening in these flood storage loops and they play such a central role in in how the information is processed how memories are formed all that stuff. I didn't think too much about it. Just call them loop neurons because it rolls off the tongue a little bit better than superconducting optoelectronic neurons. Okay so How do you design circuits For these loop neurons. That's a great question. There's a lot of different scales of design so at the level of just one synapse. You can use conventional methods. They don't they're not that complicated as as far as superconducting electronics goes. It's just for josephson junctions or something like that. Depending on how much complexity one ad so you can just directly simulate each component in in spice we've been with spice it standard electrical simulation software. Okay so you're just just explicitly solving the differential equations that describe the circuit ellen and then you can stack these things together. In that simulation software to build circuits you can but that becomes computation lee expensive so one of the things when when cove it hit we knew we had to turn some attention to more things you can do at home in your basement or whatever. One of them was was computational modeling so we started working on adapting abstracting out the circuit performance. So that you don't have to explicitly solve the circuit equations which for josephson junctions usually needs to be done on like a pico. Second timescale and you have a lot of nodes in years circuit so it results in a lot of differential equations that need to be solved simultaneously. We were looking. For a way to simulate these circuits that is scalable up to networks of millions or or so neurons is sort of where retargeting right now so we were able to analyze the behavior of these circuits. And as i said it's based on these simple building blocks so you really only need to understand this one building block and if you get a good model of at tiles and you you can change the parameters in there to get different behaviors and stuff but it's all based on now. It's one differential equation that you need to solve so one differential equation for every synapse denver right or neuron in your in your system and for the neuroscience out there. It's just a simple leaky integrate and fire model leaky integrator. Basically the synapses leaky integrator addenda is a leaky integrator. So i'm i'm really fascinated by how this one simple component can be used to achieve lots of different types of dynamical activity and to me. That's where scale ability comes from and also complexity as well complexity is often characterized by relatively simple building blocks connected in potentially simple or sometimes complicated ways and then emergent new behavior that was hard to predict from those simple simple elements. And that's exactly what we're working with here. So it's a very exciting platform both from a modeling perspective and trauma hardware manifestation perspective where we can hopefully start to have this Testbed where we can explore things not just related to neuroscience but also related to other things that connected to other physics like critical phenomenon ising models things like that. So you're asking how we stimulate these circuits. It's it's at different levels and we've got the simple spice circuit stuff. That's no problem. And now we're building these network models based on this more efficient leaky integrator so we can actually reduce every element to one differential equation and we can also step through it on a much coarser time grid so it ends up being something. Like a factor of a thousand to ten thousand speed improvement. Which allows us to simulate but hopefully up to up to millions of neurons Whereas before we would been limited to tens hundred something like that and just like Simulating quantum mechanical systems with a quantum computer. So the goal here is to understand such systems for me. The goal is to study this as a scientific physical system it. I'm not drawn towards turning this into an enterprise. At this point. I actually l. short-term applications that obviously make a lot of money is not necessarily a dr- a curiosity driver for you at the moment. Absolutely not if you're interested in short-term making money go deep learning you silicon microelectronics if you wanna understand things like the the physics of a fascinating system or if you want to understand something more along the lines of the physical limits of what can be achieved. Then i think. Single photon communication. Superconducting electronics extremely exciting. What if i want to use superconducting hardware at four kelvin to mind bitcoin as my main interest. That's that's the reason. Wanna talk to you today at one is not. I don't know what's bitcoin it's a it's a look it up on the internet. Somebody somebody told me about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is So but let me ask. Nevertheless about applications to machine learning. Okay so what like if you look at the scale of five. Ten twenty years is the is it possible to. We understand the nature of human intelligence and jal intelligence. Do you think we'll start falling out of this exploration of your more system's system's ability to solve some of the problems that the machine learning systems of today can't solve. I'm i'm really hesitant to over. Promise so i. I really don't know i also i. I don't really understand machine. Learning and a lot of senses. I mean machine. Learning from my perspective appears to require that you know precisely what your input is and also what your goal is usually have some objective function or something like that. And that's just that's very limiting. I mean of course a lot of times that that's the case you know there's a there's a picture in there's a horse in it so you've done but that that's not a very interesting problem. I think when i when i think about intelligence. It's it's almost defined by the ability to handle problems where you don't know what your inputs are going to be and you don't even necessarily know what you're trying to accomplish. I mean. I'm not sure what i'm trying to accomplish in this world but at all scales. Yeah at all scales right. I mean so sometimes. So i'm i'm more drawn to the underlying phenomena the the the critical dynamics of this of this system trying to understand how elements that you build into your hardware result in emergent fascinating activity. That was very difficult to predict things like that. So but but. But i gotta be careful. Because i think a lot of other people who if they found themselves working on this project in my shoes they would say all right. What are what are all the different ways we can use this for machine learning. Actually let me let me just definitely mentioned cawley. Get nist mike schneider. He's also very much interested in particular in the superconducting side of things. Using the incredible speed power efficiency also can seagal at colgate a other people working on specifically the superconducting side of this four machine. Learning and deep feed forward neural networks. They're the advantages are obvious. It's extremely fast is so. That's less on the nature of intelligence and more an various characteristics of this hardware the un. Yes i'm gonna use for the base computation as we not today. Yeah communication one of the things that mike schneider's working on right now is an image classified at relatively small scale. I think he's targeting that nine pixel problem where you can have three different characters and You just you put in a nine pixel image and you classified is one of these. Three three Categories and that's going to be really interesting to see what happens there because if you can show that even at that scale you just put these images in and you get it out and you can. He thinks he can do it. I forgot if it's a nanosecond or some extr extremely fast classification time. It's probably less probably hundred pico seconds or something there. You have challenges. Though because the josephson junctions themselves electronic circuit is extremely power efficient. Some orders of magnitude for something more than a than a transistor doing the same thing but when you have to cool it. Down to four kelvin. You pay a huge overhead just for keeping it cold. Even if it's not doing anything so it's you h- it has to work at at large scale in order to overcome that power penalty. But that's possible. It's just it's going to have to get that performance and this is sort of what you're asking about before is like how much better than silicon would it needs to be in the answer is i don't know i think if it's if it's just overall better than silicon at a problem that a lotta people care about. Maybe it's image classification. Maybe it's face recognition. Maybe it's monitoring credit transactions. I don't know then. I think it will have a place. It's not going to be in your cell phone but it could be in your data center So what about interest of the data center. I don't know if you're paying attention to the various systems like Testimonies thing and now announced a dojo which is a large scale machine learning training system that again the bottleneck there is probably going to be communication between those systems. Is there something from your work on The everything we've been talking about intern in terms of superconductive hardware. That could be useful. Dare throw i mean okay tomorrow. No in the long term. It could be the whole thing. It could be nothing. I don't know but definitely definitely When you look at so. I don't know that much about doj. Oh my understanding is that that's new right. That's just just coming online. Well i. I don't even know where It's it hasn't come online. And and when you announce big sexy let me explain to you the way things work in the in the world ed in the word of business marketing as not always clear where you are on the coming online part of that so i don't know where they are exactly but the vision is from ground up to build the you know a very very large scale modular machine. Acc basically hardware that's optimized for training you'll networks and of course a lot of companies that are small and big working this kind of problem. The question is how to do it in a modular way. That is has very fast communication. They interesting aspect of tusla. Is you have a company that at least at this time is so singularly focused on solving a particular machine learning problem and is making obviously a lot of money doing so because the machine learning problem happens to be involved with autonomous driving. So you have a system that's Driven by an application. And that's really interesting because you know of it. How you have. Maybe google working on news and so on your all all these other companies basics. They're usually more kind of always thinking. General so i like it when is driven by particular application because then you can really get to the. It's like it somehow. If you just talk. Broadly bought intelligence. You may not always get to the right solution. it's nice to couple that sometimes the specific illustration of something that requires general intelligence. Which for me driving is one such case. I think you're exactly right sometimes. Just having that focus on that application brings a lot of people focuses their energy and attention. I think so one of the things that appealing about. What you're saying is not just that the application is specific but also that the scale is big big and that the benefit is Is also huge so financial and to humanity right right right. Yeah so. I guess let me just try to understand. Is the point of this dojo system to figure out the the parameters that then plug into neural networks. And then you don't need to retrain. You just make copies of certain chip that has all the irs established or no it. Straight up a retraining. A large neural network over and over and over. So you have to do it once for every new car. No no you have to So they do. This interesting. process is a process for machine. Learning supervised machine learning systems. You're gonna have to do. Which is you have a system you train. You'll network once. It takes a long time. I don't know how long but maybe a week to train. And then you deploy on. Let's say about a million cars. I don't know numbers out part. You just write software that update some weights in a table and yeah but there's a luebbe. Yoke each of those cars run into trouble and rarely but like they they They catch the edge cases of the performance of that particular system and that send that data back and either automatically or by humans that weird edge case. Data's annotated and the network has to become smart enough to now be able to perform in those cases so as to get retrained. There's clever ways retraining. Different parts of that network. For the most part i think they prefer to retrain the entire thing She of this giant monster that kinda has retributive trained regularly. I think division with Doj is to have a very large learning focused driving focused supercomputer that then is sufficiently modular. They could be scaled to other machine learning applications but like so. They're not limiting themselves complete to this particular application but is this application is the way they kind of test this iterative process of machine learning. Is you make assist them. That very dumb deploy it get the edge cases where it fails make it. A little smarter becomes a little less dumb and that were that iterative process achieved something that you can call intelligent or is smart enough to be able to solve this particular application so it has to do with training you'll networks fast and you'll know works that are large but also based on an extraordinary amount of diverse input data. And that's one of the things so this does seem like one of those spaces where the scale of superconducting optoelectronics. The way that You so when you talk about the weaknesses like you said okay. Well you have to cool it down at this scale. that's fine. that's because that's not. That's not an app. Too much of an added cost most of your powers being dissipated by the circuits themselves not the cooling and also you have one centralized kind of cognitive hub if you will and so when if we're talking about putting a superconducting system in a car that's a that's questionable. Do you really want to cry out in the trunk of everyone. Your car it'll fade. It's not that big of a deal. But hopefully there's a better way right. But since this is sort of a central supreme intelligence or something like that and it's it needs to really have this massive data acquisition. Massive data integration. I would think that. That's where large-scale spiking neural networks with vast communication and all these things would would have something pretty tremendous to offer. It's not going to happen tomorrow. There's a lot of development that needs to be done. But you know we have to be patient with self driving cars for lotteries. We were all optimistic that they would be here by now and okay. They are to some extent. But if we're thinking five or ten years down the line it it's it's not unreasonable. One of the things. I just let me just mention the getting into self driving cars and technologies that are using. Ai out in the world this is something nist cares a lot about l. too bossy leading up a much larger effort in ai. At nist than then my my little project and really central to that mission is this concept of trustworthiness so when you're going to deploy his neural network in every single automobile was so much on the line. You have to be able to trust that. So now how do we know. How do we know that we can trust that. How do we know that we can trust the self driving car or the the supercomputer that that trained it. There's a lot of work there and there's a lot of that going on at nist. We're still early days. I mean the rodman all that but there's a fascinating dance in engineering with safety critical systems. There's a desire in computer science. Just recently talked don canoe to to You know for algorithms for systems for them to be proved corrective brew ably safe and you know this is one other difference between humans and biological systems as were up proably anything right and so there's some aspect of Imperfection yes that. We need to have built in like robustness to imperfection Be part of our systems which is a difficult thing for engineers to with. They're very uncomfortable with the idea that you have to be okay with failure and almost ingenious failure into the system mathematicians. Eight it to. I think it was. I think it was turning. Who said something. Along the lines of i can give you an intelligent system or i can give you a flawless system. But i can't give you both and in in sort of creativity and abstract thinking seemed to rely somewhat on sta cassidy and Not having components that perform exactly the same way. Every time this is where like the disagreement i have with not disagreement but a different view on the world on with touring will talk to robotic Robot colleagues that. Sounds like i'm talking. Robots colleagues at our robotic assists the goals perfection and to me is like no. I think the goal should be Imperfection that's communicated and through the interaction between humans and robots that imperfection becomes A feature not a bug ray. I together as seen as a system. The human and the robot together a better than in either of them individually but the robot itself is not perfect than any in any way. of course. there's at a bunch of disagreements including with mr ilan about To me autonomous driving fundamental human robot interaction problem. Not a robotics. Problem -til honest robotics problem. That's actually an an open and fascinating question whether humans could be removed from the loop completely. We've talked about a lot of fascinating chemistry in physics and engineering. And we're always running up against this issue that nature seems to dictate what's easy what's hard see of this cool little paper that i'd love to just ask you about it's titled does cosmological evolution select for technology so in physics there is Parameters that seemed to define the way our universe works that physics works that. If it worked any differently we would get a very different world. Says seems like the parameters of very fine tuned to the kind of physics that we see all the beautiful equals. Mc squared that will get these. Nice beautiful ause. It seems like very fine tuned for that So what you argue in this article is it may be that the universe is also fine tuned its parameters that enable the kind of technological innovation that we see that technology that we see q. Can you explain the yeah. I think you've introduced nicely. Let me let me. Just try to say a few things in in my language lay what is what. Is this fine tuning problem. So physicists have spent centuries trying to understand the the system of equations that govern the way nature behaves the way particles move and interact with each other and as that understanding has become more clear over time it it it became sort of evident that it's all it's all well adjusted to allow a universe like like we see very complex this this large long lived universe and so one one answer to that is well of course it is because we wouldn't be here otherwise but very satisfying that's sort of. That's what's known. As the weak anthropic principle statement of selection bias. We can only observe universe that is fit for us to to live in. So what does it mean for. University fit for us to live in. Well the pursuit of physics. It is based partially on coming up with equations. That describe how things behave interact with each other but in all those equations you have so there's the form of the equation sort of how how different fields are particles Move in space and time. But then they're also the the parameters that just tell you sort of the strength of different couplings. How strongly does it a charge particle couple to the electromagnetic field or masses. How how strongly does a particle couple to the higgs field or something like that. And those parameters that define the not not the general structure of the equations but the relative importance of different terms. They seem to be every bit as important as the structure of the equations themselves. And so i. I forget who it was somebody when they were working through this and trying to see okay. If i just the parameter parameter here call the say the fine structure constant with shells us the strength of the electromagnetic interaction. Oh boy i can't change it very much. Otherwise nothing works. The universe sort of doesn't it just popped into existence and goes away in in announced a second or something like that and somebody had the phrase. This looks like a put up job. Meaning every one of these parameters was dialed in. Its are you will. How precisely they have to be dialed in dialed in to some extent not just in order to enable our existence that's a very anthropocentric view but to enable a universe like this one. So okay you maybe a. I think the majority position of working physicists. In the field is it has to be that way in order for us to exist. We're here. we shouldn't be surprised that that's the way the universe is n. I don't know for a while. That never sat well with me but i just kind of moved on because there are things to do in a lot of exciting work doesn't depend on resolving this puzzle but as i started working more with technology getting into the more recent years of my career particularly when i started after having worked with silicon for a long time which was kind of eerie on its own but then when i switched over to superconductors just like this is crazy it's just absolutely astonishing that our universe gives us superconductivity it's one of the most beautiful physical phenomena in. It's also extraordinarily useful for technology. So you can argue that the universe has to have the parameters that does for us to exist because we couldn't be your otherwise but why does it give us technology. Why does it give us silicon. That has this ideal oxide that allows us to make a transistor without trying that hard. That can't be explained by the same anthropic reasoning. A says is asking the why question i mean. The a slight natural extension of that question is a wonder if the parameters were different if we would simply have just another set of paint brushes to create totally other things that when let the wooden look like anything like the technology today but would nevertheless have incredible complexity which is if you sort of zuma and start defining things not by Like how many batteries it needs and whether it can make toast but more like how much complexities within the system or something like that. Well yeah you can. You can start to quantify things. You're exactly right. So i know where my arguing that in all of the vast parameter space of everything that could conceivably exist in the multi-diverse of of nature there is this one point in parameter space where complexity arises. I doubt it that would be a shameful waste of resource but it might be that we reside at one place in parameter space that has been adapted through a process to allow us to make certain technologies that that allow our our particular kind of universe to arise and sort of achieved the things it does. See i if nature in this kind of discussion if nature is a catalyst for innovation or ceiling for innovation so like is it going to always limit us like these talking about can is it. Just make it super easy to awesome stuff in a certain dimension. Bogus still do awesome stuff. Another. it'll be harder or is it. does it really set like the maximum we can do the. That's a good thing. That's a good subject to discuss. I guess i feel like we need to lay a little bit more ground work. So i wanna make sure that I introduced this. In the context of lease nolan's previous idea whose lease molin. And what kind of ideas does he have. Okay lease small. In is a theoretical physicist who back in the late nineteen eighties published a paper in the early nineteen ninety s introduced this idea of cosmological natural selection which argues that the universe did evolve so his paper was called the universe evolve and i gave myself the liberty of titling my paper cosmological selection or just cosmological evolution select for technology in reference to that so. He introduced that idea decades ago now he primarily works on Quantum gravity loop quantum gravity other approaches to Unifying quantum mechanics general relativity as you can read about in his most recent book i believe in. He's been on your show as well. So but i want to introduce this idea of cosmological natural selection because i think that is one of the core ideas that could change our understanding of how the universe got here our role in it. What technology is doing here. But there's a couple more pieces that need to be set up first. So the beginning of our universe is largely accepted to be the big bang and what that means is if you look back in time by looking far away in space you see that Everything used to be at at one point and it expanded away from there. There was a era and the evolutionary process of our universe that was called inflation and this idea was developed primarily by alan guth and and others andrei linde another others in the eighties. And this idea of inflation is basically that win A singularity of begins this process of of growth. There can be a temporary stage. Where it just accelerates incredibly rapidly and based on quantum field theory this tells us that they should produce matter in precisely the proportions that we find of hydrogen and helium and the big bang. Lithium him to lithium also And other things too. So so the predictions that come out of big bang. Inflationary cosmology have stood up extremely well to empirical verification the cosmic microwave background. Things like this so most scientists working in the field think that the origin of our universe is the big bang. And i i basically all my thinking on that as well. I'm just laying this out there so that people understand that where i'm coming from is an extension not a replacement of of existing well-founded ideas in a paper. I believe it was nineteen. Eighty six with a alan guth and Another author far he they. They wrote that a a big bang. I don't remember the exact quote a big bang is inextricably inextricably linked with a black hole the singularity that we call our origin is mathematically indistinguishable from a black hole there. They're the same thing and lease molin based his thinking a on that idea. I believe i don't mean to speak for him but this is my reading of it. So what lease molin will say. Is that a black hole in one. Universe is a big bang in another universe and this allows us to have progeny offspring so A universe can be said to have come before another universe and very crucially small and argued be argues. I i think this is potentially one of the great ideas of all time. That's my opinion that win a black hole forms. It's not a classical entity. It's a quantum gravitational entity so there it is subject to the fluctuations that are inherent in quantum mechanics the the properties. That the what. We're calling the parameters that describe. The physics of that system are subject to slight mutations so that the offspring universe does not have the exact same parameters defining it's physics as its parent. Universe they're close but they're a little bit different and so now you have a mechanism for evolution for natural selection to this mutation. So there's and if you think about the. The dna of universe are the basic parameters governance laws. Exactly so so that so what small and said is our universe results from an evolutionary process that can be traced back some. He estimated two hundred million generations. Initially there was something like a vacuum fluctuation that produced through through random chance Universe that was able to reproduce just want so now it had one offspring and then over time it was able to make more and more until it evolved into a highly structured universe with a very long lifetime with a great deal of complexity and importantly especially importantly for at least molin stars stars make black holes therefore we should expect our universe to be optimized have its physical parameters optimized to make very large numbers of stars. Because that's how you make black holes and black holes make offspring so we expect our physics of our universe to have evolved to maximize punditry the number of offspring and the way we small and argues. You do that is through stars that the biggest ones died in these core collapse supernova. That make a black hole in child. First of all. I agree with you that this is back to her. Fractional view of everything from intelligence or a universe that is very compelling in a very powerful idea that unites the origin of life and perhaps the origin of ideas and intelligence so from adopt perspective here on earth the evolution of those and then the evolution of the laws of physics. That led to us. I mean is beautiful and then used stacking on top of that that may be. We're one of the offspring right okay. So before getting into where. I'd like to take that idea. Let me just a little bit more. Groundwork there is this concept of the multi-diverse and it can be confusing different people. Use the word multi verse in different ways in in the multi verse that i think is relevant to picture when trying to grasp lisa mullins idea essentially every every vacuum fluctuation can be referred to as a universe it it it occurs it borrows energy from the vacuum for some finite amount of time and it evanescence back into the quantum vacuum and ideas of Guth before that in and andrei linde with Eternal inflation aren't that different. You would expect nature due to the quantum properties of the vacuum. Which we we know exists there. They're measurable through things like the casimir effect and others. You know that there are these fluctuations that are occurring. What what small and is arguing is that there is this extensive multi verse. We this universe what we can measure and interact with is not unique in nature. it's just our residents. it's where we reside in there are countless potentially infinity other universes other entire evolutionary trajectories. That of evolved into things like what you were mentioning a second ago with different parameters in different ways of achieving complexity and reproduction and all that stuff. So it's not that the evolutionary process is a funnel towards this endpoint. Not at all just like the. The biological evolutionary process that has occurred within our universe is not a unique route toward achieving one specific. Chosen kind of species no we we have extraordinary diversity around us. That's what evolution does and for any one species like us it might feel like we're at the center of where the destination of this process board just one of many Nearly infinite branches exact process. And i suspect it is exactly infant. I mean i just can't understand how with this idea. You can ever draw boundary around and say no the the universe i mean. The multi-diverse has tend to the one quad trillion components but not infinity. I don't know that. That's i have Cognitively incapable as i think all of us are an truly understanding the concept of infinity and the concept of nothing as well and nothing but also the concept of a lot is pretty difficult. Could just i. I run out of fingers. And then you're screwed and when you wearing shoes and you can't even get down to your toes. It's like it's like our thousand fine million is that what and then the gets crazy in crazy right right so this particular. We'll technology by the way. I mean there's some not to over romanticize a thing but there is some aspect about this branch of ours that allows us to For the universe to know itself. Yes yes so to be to like little conscious cognitive fingers. They're able to feel like the scratch. The head right right right To be able to construct equals squared and to respect to have to start to gain some understanding of the laws. That government is in that Isn't that kind of amazing. don't okay. I'm just human. But it feels like that. If i were to build a system that does this kind of thing that evolves laws of physics that evolved life that evolves intelligence that my goal would be to come up with things. They're able to think about itself right. Aren't we kind close to the. The the design inspects the destination. Pretty close. i don't know. I mean i'm spending my career designing things that i hope will think about themselves exam. You and i aren't too far apart on that one but that may be. That problem is a lot harder than we imagine. Maybe we need to. let's not get. Let's not get too far. Because i want to emphasize something that what you're saying is isn't it fascinating that the universe evolved something that can be conscious reflect on itself but lease molins idea. Didn't take us there remember. It took us two stars. Lease molin has argued. I think right on almost every single way that cosmological natural selection could lead to a universe with rich structure and he argued that the structure the physics of our universe is designed to make a lot of stars so that they can make black holes. But that doesn't explain what we're doing here you in order to in order for that to be an explanation of us which you have to assume is that once you made that universe that was capable of producing stars life planets. All these other things were along for the ride. They got lucky. Where were kinda arising growing up in the cracks but the universe isn't here for us. We're we're still kind of a fluke in that position. And i can't i i don't i don't necessarily have like a philosophical opposition to that stance. It's just not Okay so. I don't think it's complete so it seems like whatever we got going on here to seems like we have here on earth. Seems like a thing you might want to select for big process xactly so if what you are truly if your entire evolutionary process only cares about fecundity it only cares about making offspring universe. Because then there's going to be the most of them in that local region of of hyperspace which is the set of all possible universes. Let's let's say You don't care how those universes are made you know. They have to be made by black holes. This is what this is what inflationary theory tells us. The big bank tells us that black holes make universes but what if there was a technological means to make universes stars require a ton of matter do because they're they're not thinking very carefully about how you make a black hole they're just using gravity you know But if we devised technologies that can efficiently compress matter into a singularity it turns out that if you can compress about ten kilograms into a very small volume that will make a black hole that is likely highly probable to inflate into its own offspring. Universe this is according to calculations done by other people who are professional quantum theories quantum field theories. And i hope i am grasping what they're telling me correctly somewhat of a of a translator here but so so that's that's the position that is particularly intriguing to me. Which is that what might have happened. Is that okay. This particular branch on the vast tree of evolution cosmological evolution. We're talking about not biological evolution with in our universe but cosmological evolution win through exactly the process that lease molin describe got to the stage where stars were making lots of black holes but then continued to evolve and somehow bridge that gap and made intelligence and intelligence capable of devising technologies because technologies in intelligent species working in conjunction with technologies could then produce even more more efficiently more like faster and better and more different new. Start different kinds of mechanisms and mutation. Perhaps that kind of stuff and so if you do a simple calculation that says all right if i want to you know roughly how many Core collapse supernova supernova have resulted in black holes in our galaxy since the beginning of the universe. And it's something like a billion so then you would have to estimate that it would be possible for a technological civilization to produce more than a billion black holes with the energy and matter at their disposal so one of the calculations in that paper back of the envelope. But i think revealing on the less is that if you take a relatively common asteroid something that's about a kilometer in diameter. What i'm thinking of is just scrap material laying around in our solar system and break it up into ten kilogram chunks intern each of those into a universe. Then you would have made at least a trillion black holes outpacing the star production rate by some three orders of magnitude. That's one asteroid so now if you envision an intelligent species that would potentially have been devised initially by humans but then based on superconducting optoelectronic networks. No doubt and they go out and populate they don't they don't have to fill the galaxy they just have to get out to the asteroid belt they could potentially dramatically outpace the rate at which stars are producing offspring universes and then. Wouldn't you expect that that's where we came from instead of a star so you have to somehow become masters of gravity solely or jonah's early gravity so stars make black holes with gravity but any force that can Make the energy density can compact defy matter to produce a great enough energy density can form a singularity. It doesn't it would not likely be gravity. It's the weakest force. You're more likely to use something like the technologies that we're developing for fusion for example. So i don't know The large ignition facility recently blasted a pellet with a hundred really bright lasers and caused that to get dense enough to engage in nuclear fusion. So something more like that or tokamak with a really hot plasma. I'm not sure something. I don't know exactly how it would be done. I do like the idea of that Especially has been reading a lot about gravitational waves and you know the fact that us humans with our technological capabilities one of the most impressive technological accomplishments of human histories lie go be able to precisely detect gravitational waves. I'm particularly Find appealing idea that other alien civilizations from very far distances communicate with gravity gravitational waves. Because as you become greater and greater master of gravity which seems way out of reach for us right now. Maybe that seems like of effective way of sending signals especially if your job is to manufacture black coals. Right so that that. Let me ask their whatever i mean. Broadly thinking 'cause we tend to think other alien civilizations would be very human-like but if we think of alien civilizations out there is basically generators of black holes however they do it because they go stars Do think there's a lot of them in our particular universe out there in our universe while okay. Let me ask. Okay this is great. Let me ask a very generic question. And then let's see how you answer it which is How many alien civilizations are out there. If the hypothesis. That i just described is on the right travis. It would mean that the parameters of our universe have been selected so that intelligent civilizations will occur in sufficient numbers so that the if they reached something supreme technological maturity. Let's define that as the ability to produce black holes. Then that's not a highly improbable event. Need to happen often. Because as i just described if if you get one of them in a galaxy you're gonna make more black holes in the stars in that galaxy but there's also not a super strong motivation. Well it's not obvious that you need them to be ubiquitous throughout the galaxy. Ma so so one of the things. That's that i try to emphasize in that paper. Is that given this idea of of how the our parameters might have been selected. It's clear that it's a it's a series of trade offs right. If you make. I mean in order for intelligent life of our variety or anything resembling us to occur. You need a bunch of stuff. You need stars. So that's right back to two small roots at this idea but you also need water to have certain properties you need. You need things like the the rocky planets like the earth to be within the habitable zone. All these things that you start talking about in the the field of astro biology trying to understand life in the universe. But you can't overemphasize that you can't tune the parameters so precisely to maximize the number of stars or to to give water exactly the properties or or to make rocky planets like earth the most numerous. You have to compromise on all these things and so. I think the way to test this idea is to look at what parameters are necessary for for each of these different subsystems and i've laid out a few that i think are promising. There could be countless others and see how changing the parameters makes it more or less likely that stars would form and have long lifetimes that or that rocky planets in the habitable zone are are likely to form all these different things so we can test how how much these things are in a tug of war with each other and the prediction would be that. We kind of sit at the central point. Where if you if you move the parameters too much stars aren't staple or life doesn't form or technologies infeasible 'cause 'cause life alone at least the of life that we know of cannot make black holes. We don't have this well. I'm speaking for myself eat. You're very fit strong person. But it might be possible for you but not for me to compress matter. So we need these technologies. But we don't know we have not been able to quantify yet how Finally adjusted the parameters would need to be in order for silicon have the properties. Okay this is not directly. Speaking to what you're saying you're getting to the for me paradox. Which is where are they. Wear the the lifeforms out there. How numerous hartley. That sort of thing. What i'm trying to argue is that if this framework is is on the right track of a potentially correct explanation for existence we do. It doesn't necessarily predict that intelligent civilizations are just everywhere because even if you just get one of them in a galaxy which is quite rare it could be enough to dramatically Increased fecundity of of the universe and i wonder once he started sharing the offspring for universes black holes. How that has effect on the. What kind of effect does it have on the other. Candidates civilizations in that universe may be as destructive aspect or that could be some arguments about once. You have a lot of offspring that that just quickly accelerates toward the other ones can't even catch out it could but i guess if you want me to put my chips on the table or whatever. I think i come down more on the side that intelligent life civilizations are rare and I guess i follow max tag mark here and also there's a. There's a lot of papers coming out recently. In the field of astro biology are seeming to say all right. You just work through the numbers on on some modified drake equation or something like that and it looks like it's not improbable you wouldn't you. You shouldn't be surprised that an intelligent species has arisen in our galaxy. But if you think there's one the next solar system over it's highly improbable. So i can see that. The number the probability of finding a a civilization in a galaxy. Maybe it's most likely that you're going to find one to a hundred or something but okay. Now it's it's really important. But at time window on that i think because does that mean in the entire lifetime of the galaxy before it it so for anarchist before we run into andromeda i think it's highly probable. I shouldn't say. I think it's tempting to believe that it's highly probable that in that entire lifetime of your galaxy you're going to get at least one intelligent species maybe thousands or something like that. But it's also i think A little bit naive to think that they're going to coincide in time and we'll be able to observe them and also if you look at the span of Life on earth the earth earth christie history. It was surprising to me to kind of look at the amount of time with i. All the the short amount of sanders life is surprising. Life sprang up pretty quickly. Cellular must single salsa. But that was. That's the point. I'm trying to make his like so much with what of life on earth was just single cell organisms like most of it most of his like boring bacteria type stuff. We'll bacteria fascinating. But i take your point. No i i get it. I mean no offense to them this kind of speaking from the perspective of your paper of something that's able to generate technologies. We kind of understand it. That's a very short moment. Time relative to that That fool history of life on earth and maybe our universe is just saturated with beccaria like humans ray but not the special extra agi superhumans that those are very rare. Once those spring up everything just goes to like it. It accelerates very quickly. Yeah it's it's we just don't have enough data to really say but i find this whole subject extremely engaging i mean there's this concept i think it's called the rare earth hypothesis which is that basically stating that. Okay microbes were here right away. After the haidian haidian era where we are being bombarded well after yet bombarded by comets asteroids things like that and also after the moon form so once things settled down a little bit in a few hundred million years you have microbes everywhere and it could have been. We don't know exactly when it could have been remarkably free that that took so it does indicate that okay life forms relatively easily. I think that alone is sort of a on the scale for the argument that the parameters that allow even microbial life to form are are not just a fluke but anyway that aside yes then there was this long dormant period not dormant. Things were happening but Important things were happening for some two and a half billion years or something after The metabolic process that releases oxygen was developed. Didn't basically the plan is just sitting there getting more and more oxygenated more and more oxygenated until it's enough that you can build these large complex organisms and so the rare earth hypothesis would argue that the microbes are common in everywhere in any planet. That's like roughly in the habitable zone and has some water on his. Probably gonna have those but then getting to this cambridge explosion. That happened some between five and six hundred million years ago. That's that's rare you know. And i i buy. I think that is rare so if you say how much. Life is in our galaxy. I think that's probably the right answer. Is that microbes are everywhere cambridge Explosion is extremely rare and then by the cambrian explosion kind of went like that where Within a couple tens or hundred million years all of these body plans came into existence and and basically all the body plans that are now in existence on the on. The planet were formed in that brief window. And we've just been shuffling around since then so then what what caused humans to pop out of that. I mean that could be another extremely rare threshold that a planet. Roughly in the habitable zone with water is not guaranteed to cross. You know to me is fascinating for being home. Bullet like the humans cannot possibly be the most amazing thing that such if you look at the entirety of the system. That small and you paint. That cannot possibly be the most amazing thing that process generates so like if you look at the evolution was the equivalent in the cosmological evolution and its selection for technology the equivalent of the human eye or the human brain universes. They're able to do some like they don't need the damn stars. They dairy will digest do some incredible generation of complexity. Fast on like much more than if you think about it. Think most of our interest pretty frigging boring. There's not much going on a few rocks flying around and there's some like apes they're just like Doing podcasts on some weird planet is just seems very inefficient. If you think about like the the amazing thing the human eye the visual cortex can do the the brains nervous everything that makes us more powerful than single cell organisms like if there's an equivalent of that for universes they're like the richness of physics that could be that can be expressed through particular set of parameters. Like i mean that. That for me i'm So from a computer size perspective. Huge fan australia tomba which is a nice pretty visual way to illustrate how different laws can result and drastically different levels of complexity. So like it's like. Yeah okay so we're all accelerating look our little sell your tom and is able to generate pretty triangles and squares and therefore we achieve general intelligence. And then they'll be like some bad ass. Chuck norris type lake Universal tori machine type of cellular automata. They're able to generate other celje tahmina. A of a does any arbitrary level of computation off the bat. It the those have to exist and then we're just like this words will be forgotten this story. This is a this podcast just entertains a few other apes for a few months well i. I'm kind of surprised to hear your cynicism be not a very odd. I usually think of you as like a one who celebrates humanity in all its forms and things like that. And i guess i just i. Don't i see the way you just described. I mean okay fifth. We've been here for thirteen point. Seven billion years in. You're saying gosh that's a long time was get on with the show already. Some other universe could kicked our but by now. But that's putting a characteristic. I mean why is thirteen point. Seven billion a longtime. I mean compared to compared to what i guess so. When i look at our universe i see this extraordinary hierarchy that has developed over that time so at the beginning. It was a chaotic mess. Of you know some plasma nothing interesting going on there and it even for the first star to form that a lot of really interesting of evolutionary process. He's had to occur by evolutionary. In that sense. I just mean Taking place over extended periods of time and structures are forming then and then it took that first generation of stars in order to produce the metals a that then can more efficiently produce another generation of stars. We're only the third generation of stars so we might still be pretty quick to the to the game here so i don't think i don't okay so then. So then you have the stars that you have source systems on those solar systems. You have Rocky world you have gas giants like all this complexity and then you start getting life and the the complexity that's evolved through the evolutionary process in life forms is just. It's not a let down to me just and there's some of it is like some some of the planets like i see different flavors of ice cream there. I see but there might be water and again all kinds of lifeforms. Some volcano right all kinds of weird so no no. I don't think it's beautiful. I think our life is beautiful. And i think it was Designed by by design scarcity. The whole thing. I think mortality as terrifying as it is is fundamental. To the whole reason we enjoy everything. Now i think is beautiful. I just think that all of us Conscious beings in the grand scheme of basically every scale be completely forgotten with. That's true. I think everything is transient and that would go back to. Maybe something more like lao tsu doubt aging or something where it's like yes. There is nothing but change. There is nothing but emergence and dissolve and that. That's it but i just in this picture this hierarchy that's developed. I don't mean to say that now it gets to us. And that's the pinnacle. In fact i think the at a high level the story. I'm trying to tease out in. My research is about okay. We'll so then. What's the next level of hierarchy. And if if it's okay we're we're kind of pretty smart. I mean talking about people like lease. Molin alan goose max. Take mark okay. We're really smart talking about me. Okay we're kind of words we can find our way to the grocery store whatever but subliminal. But what's next you know. I mean what if what if there's another level of hierarchy that grows on top of us that is even more profoundly capable and i mean we've talked a lot about superconducting sensors. Imagine these Cognitive systems far more capable than us residing somewhere else in the solar system off the surface of the earth where it's much darker much colder much more naturally suited to them and they have these sensors that can detect single photons of light from radio waves out to all across the spectrum to gamma rays and just see the whole universe and they just live in space with these massive Collection optics. What what did they do. They just look out in an experienced that that vast array of of what's being developed and if you're such a system presumably you would do some things for fun and the kind of fun thing. I would do says somebody who likes video games is i would create and maintain and observe something like earth and so in some sense weird like all what players on the stage for this Superconducting cold computing system out. There i mean all of this is fascinating to the the fact that you're actually designing systems here on earth. They're trying to push this technological at the very cutting edge and also thinking about how does the like the evolution of physical laws lead to the way we are is fascinating that that coupling fascinating. It's like the ultimate rigorous application of philosophy to the rigorous application of engineering. So i Jeff you one of the most fascinating. I'm i'm so glad. I did not know much about you except through your work and so glad we got this chance to talk. You're you're one of the best explainers of exceptionally difficult concepts And you're also the speaking of practical able to function intellectually at all levels of the stack. Which i which i deeply appreciate this was really fun. You're great educator great scientists. it's an honor that you spend your valuable time with me. It's an honor that you would spend your time with me as well. thanks jeff. Thanks for listening to this conversation with jeff. Shane line to support the spot guest. We shut our sponsors in the description and now leave you with some words from the great john cormac who surely will be a guest on this podcast. Soon because of the nature of moore's law anything that an extremely clever graphics programmer can do at one point can be replicated by merely competent programmer. Some number of years later. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time

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2:02:21 hr | 1 year ago

Dopey 261: Jake 'The Snake' Roberts, coke, relapse, recovery, sex addiction

"The. Time for. Thing thumb to. Chris. Now with warning. While we do. David Chris going out you. You're not terrible you might learn something. Third. PODCAST. The trauma in your. Sobriety. THEM OUT ON. Of. The. Body whilst. Started throwing visual lessons. Now you know. Good. Support start. Let's get on the role Hillis A. Dope. Chance to start. This dope dopey podcast is brought to you by our great friends at Alloa, recovery located in Sunny Southern California Allah was created by the Great Bob, forrest and his friends Evan Jared and Bob. They wanted to create a facility which treated drug addiction. But in a different way, they wanted to use compassion and connection rather than control they have decades of experience treating drug addiction as well as Co occurring mental health disorders including. Sm I, which of course is severe mental illness. 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We put up three patriots episodes of last week we put up Gawker editor and chief Aj area check it out the week. Before was my dad you never know who's going to pop up on Dopey Patriae on throw a few bucks subscribe to the Channel Five. Bucks gets you into the dopey. Patriots Zoom Ten bucks gets you a sticker pack plus the bonus episode thirty days in front of everybody else. So that means the dopey. Patriots Bonus episode is coming out soon, go to www dot patriots dot com slash dopey podcast, and sign up for dopey patron also buy some dopey Merch we are running are incredible Halloween skull misfits inspired dopey hoodies the first ever dopey crew neck sweatshirt, and of course, new dope tease. They're also dopey mugs goaded DOPEY PODCAST DOT COM. We are in a partnership with Sro Prince who are also a bunch of recovering drug addicts as well. So by some dopey gear at Dopey podcast dot com I still have snap backs I. still have beanies and I still have stickers if you WanNa then mommy I am happy to ship them out to you enough with the ads here is the show. Hello and welcome to Dopey the podcast about drugs addiction and dumb shit and I'm Dave and I'm here with my good friend. Ray. Dave, how are you feeling right? Nice to be back in the kitchen we're back in New York City and my dad's kitchen table I mean it's fun to come out to your house. We have a good time and watch. TV. But this is a lot easier. Also like roots robots. Fuck in how man it's crazy says word I'll know this is not where it all started. This is not where it all started, but this is definitely where it all continued. Wait. Did you change your pants or that was what you had on now? Do you think I walk around in Pajama? Pants well, because I just remember when you and I used to me, you cats is. Your apartment you would immediately change into pajamas got in like just like they were burning your legs to get these genes off I, always thought that was so weird. Yes, it's true and. I didn't WanNA record the show wearing jeans. So I excuse myself and I wondered if I had left Pajamas. Here and I had and when I did I also found one of the original red dopey thought that was new. Now this is one of the. The last red and black eyed ob? Really Nice. You should make some more red and black nice. Nice. Combo Brian Hot Wheels Connelly asked me if I would make blue and red dopey heads that would be cool I don't think we still have black and dopey ads. That's where we have blue and red contrasting colors I. Think the bears Colors Orange Purple Orange and blue is what I would like orange and blue it'd be nice that's a Nice Knicks I. Think we did a few orange and blue dopey s I think Brian Actually has I love I love contrasting colors like yellow and purple and all that Shit Gallon purple is not good yellow and green is dope. Are you. Are you are you a winter? What do you mean was that? Are you summer? What does that? By mom my mom was obsessed with seasons. For, fashion what closed what colors you can wear and we goofed on her but you know she's right like I'm a winter and I can't wear yellow and orange it makes my skin look washed up. I don't know I. Don't I don't I don't wear all the same colors I wear black green blue that's it really but I bet you I could wear yellow and red, but I don't. Yeah I don't wear. I wear flannel and black and blue and green room. And Ray, and I met up. It's a very exciting show by the way. Welcome to the show I. Hope You guys are well, very excited to be back in the city. We have a very exciting guest Jake Snake Roberts. Yeah. That's stories. Incredible. Short interview because I was just forced to listen to it. fucking. We've case I call up I, call this morning I'm like you want me to pick I'm. Doing some work I'm like, do you want me to pick you up on my way home? He's like sure and I ask them again of the car did you listen to the interview and he's like no and I'm like, what do you mean? No 'cause you wrote to me and you're like, I'm sending you the interview and then you're like, don't let actually don't listen to it. Know I. I told you. A? Bitter. Screaming at me for Dewsbury I'm walking by this car that's like beep beep and my who's this fucking Beeping this homeless guy. This is how that Ray is not a real New Yorker and explain this real. New York. You're not a real new, Yorker and I'M GONNA explain this to you real. New. Yorkers need to look at everything number one especially if someone's honking and real new, Yorkers ignore everything around now those are not real New Yorkers if somebody says, excuse me, you ignore them and just keep walking always are not real new. Yorkers. Real new. Yorkers engage. They want to know what's going on. If you say to me, can you give me directions I'm like right on it but if you don't say that in the first two seconds I'm gone dude I text you I'm going to be on fourteen between six and seven and I'm walking to six and this car beeping at me WanNa Bicker about it I sat outside I honk the Horn you ignore me the homeless persons like Hey, do. Those. Things. They had those kiosks that give people free Internet and you can charge they all of the city but. When they thought of them, nobody had like wireless or nobody had. Now. Just for bombs to plug their phones into jerk off watching born. Will tense around them. Now raise trying to say, is that on every other corner, some phone company or wireless? New York wow. The city of New York probably a shrewd partnership with some wireless company. The Internet was first invented there like we need to put these Chiasso everybody has internet. They didn't think that everybody would have it on their phone right and they also have a USB port where students and drug addicts and homeless people tend to charge their phone. You know a huge population of people at the kiosks are going to meet their guy and their phone just die and they know they're fucked. So they need to charge it but it is a very awkward thing when there's The charging port is like four feet above the ground. To stand with yesterday's and hold your hand up housing, it's very off. When you see people on their phone, they're usually screaming into their phone or you some people are talking into the kiosk screaming into the they're calling somebody who to help them or somebody they're with but sometimes they build tents around the kiosks and they live like with the kiosk. It's their source of electricity warmth in. It's like it's like that's post. That's going to happen pretty in New York people aren't going to build ten, and when when did the WORD KIOSK COME TO BE? What is that word? It's been around forever what does it mean sounds Russian it's a terrible word Kia I. don't like the word. I don't like to use IT I. Don't I don't want the word kiosk to exist. To describe some fucking bullshit informational like. Odalisque what is fucking kiosk what isn't? He ask is like I don't know office. I. Don't know anyway. So Ray I went to. Bandido TACO. That's it has a name, Bandido. TACO which was. A spin off of one of my favorite new. York City fast food restaurants called Fresco Tortilla. Oh i. in the early nineties, they were everywhere Fresco Tortilla came into the city to offer took over chinese-made tex-mex food fresh fresh tortillas ninety nine cents ninety nine cents case India Sink Coronado or something like that synchrony. And they take too delicious fresh tortillas put Monterey Jack Cheese and case it did out. But the one below Allen's apartment is the best one I think and years ago David we're going to a meeting I think and I was like before we go I know the best Taco place in New York it's like cool and. They're saying this place is like under my dad's apartment I know this place I was expecting some Buji Taco spot that had like. Roasted. Root veggies. And some amazing Tortillas I'm amazing shrimp TACO and instead it's fucking FRESCO Tortilla I'm like, FRESCO I saw three Mexican guys at. Frisco Tortilla. English arguing with the Chinese guy they were trying to order a beef and Broccoli and he's screaming it's not Chinese restaurants well, for people who don't live in New York, you have to understand that that these they're not called fresco often anymore they're Taco Bandido Bandido Loco, blah blah blah. Whatever they're all Chinese they're these tiny takeout places that resemble a Chinese restaurant but tex-mex. So somebody who doesn't know what's going on to demand beef and Broccoli? That make sense. Chinese restaurants are disappearing old school well, I believe this is a belief I have like I live in a town you know miles outside of Manhattan and mostly the Chinese food is terrible. It's fucking terribly and same in Westchester I believe that if a young pioneering Chinese person or another person who really liked Chinese food had a dream of bringing quality Chinese food to the suburbs. I think they'd be a rich person I think you could be that rich person I. Think we could do that. My nephew wants to open a Vietnamese restaurant in Saint, John's Newfoundland because there's not one. I don't think I'm thinking of a high this is like a franchise. He doesn't want to suggest it. I'm thinking a franchise that they make pancakes. This is good for you and I- Panda Express is not good. Is the worst so bad but a restaurant that's kind of like Pratt Amman J. or like a fuck in what's the Mexican one? With the BURRITOS. To Portland chip. PORTLAND. Billy love Jabballah. So if you take this concept, apply it to Chinese food I think we could very wealthy. Let's do that. Instead of dopey lists do that. But I think it could be good for some. You're GonNa we were going to form a painting company at one point. So do you want to hear my dishwasher story or do you WanNa, talk about my dad's cookies while you. I just had two of you. You Dan Yeah I. WanNa talk about that. I, took a I took a picture of you with the cookies Gimme the cookies he's looking for your phone raise hopelessly like I am and like probably all of you are raise hopelessly addicted to. Penis now to. Telephone he's just fucking. I'm not holding phone. He's sick but I took a picture of you the cookies to send the bulk is boy and is in that picture back and forth to don't put them in front of me. Now, I have to say this Keebler I'm powerless over these book. Keebler. I've always been a fan of Keebler. It's too loud to wrap it up. It's too fucking loud. Okay. Sound on the floor who care what does it matter? Here has not. fucking screen. Keebler is one of like it's A. It's a low quality cookie keebler however, I feel like the L. thing and the idea of els in a tree. Crackers into Fudge I find it incredibly appeal. And doesn't really good chopped up put in ice cream the fudge striped cookie. I've always been a fan of and my dad probably went to the supermarket and saw that these were on sale for a buck. But these are called woopsie fudge stripes and the Gimmick is that the Elf made a mistake and if you know anything about fudge stripe cookies, they is just the back the woopsie cookie or their striped on the top. This is no stripe it's just Eight two of those I took a picture of that package and I didn't even I thought those were fudge stripes and I looked at the package and read it. What they're telling us is that the Keebler elves made a mistake sees build the chocolate all over the cooking and they were once stripe with fudge. So if you if you took the layer of chocolate, you'd think there were stripes underneath. I remember when Keebler started I'm getting old enough that I remember all this weird stuff like I remember when there was no yogurt in the grocery store. Is that why you make Your Own Yogurt I do make and I remember we got Deli in Tallahassee and we're like, what is a Deli? and. It's a place you buy prepared foods. And they have bagels like what's a Bagel that was the first time I had a Bagel that's how that's how it's very clear. You're not a real New Yorker anyway. So, check it out months ago. My dishwasher broke I was. When I was there, it was leaking all over the kitchen floor Linda refuses to wash the dishes. So I watch every dish how much a new dishwasher five, hundred dollars I was afraid new dishwasher was really expensive but then I looked it up and it's like a the cheapest one is like three hundred and fifty bucks. The most expensive one is eleven hundred bucks. So get a five hundred dollar one. So I decided that I can buy a dishwasher. So Lyndon I block out time to go to Lowe's to buy a dishwasher because home depot supposedly support trump. So we decided to go to lows, which is my first very political move and we're Linda's like you got to measure the dishwasher. 'cause we're not going to be able to get the right size and I'm like we're like seventy year old Jewish people now and I'm like does turn Jewish and I'm like I'm like I think it's a standard size dishwasher. So confusing and she's like she's like, where's the tape measure? On that. And I. I don't know and where's the tape measure and we couldn't find the tape measure and she's like I'm not going to the store if if you don't have a measurement so I took a role of string and string across the front and I cut it and I put it in my little dope pocket and we go out and she's so embarrassed. That I'm going to pull out the string in front of. In front of the sales like billy like a hillbilly and the the sales person was the biggest hillbilly. And he's like Oh very nice string. Sir. They have this new thing called tape measure. We bought a tape measure when we were there and they didn't have any they didn't have any dishwashers. So we wound up going to home depot and buying a dishwasher there to how many. I have how many take a wild guess me say four fifteen. So why aren't you a gas that I use the stringed? I've done. I'm measured this if I don't have all use this my elbow to my finger and then use that as a measurement. So you're like me but it's so I bought a refrigerator recently it's really confusing. That's the next thing is the refrigerator it's too late. Fourteen hundred dollars I'm sure everyone wants us to be dopey the podcast on refrigeration fascinating and appliances. Is Not. Ray. When you first came on the show many years ago. And we and you made me take down the show. You told the story about shooting up. Angel Does Oh you're thinking it was heroin. We can. You tell that story a fucking nightmare that we wit they stopped selling dope in the East village operation pressure point came in and they just put you know like how what happened with that like one day there's like an open air drug market on Third Street between. A. And B. and C., and then like. The police obviously know it's happening way out in the open hundreds of junkies, and then the next day that we're doing operation pressure point had to be tied in real estate gentrification and all that but so. Where dope now, we went to Williamsburg, which was free. boosie was has seed Hasidic Moh. We know they sell dope in Williamsburg summer, but we couldn't find then. They were selling was guys our corner in Park Slope Fucking Park Slope. We went to them and said three D. or I said three D.. Meaning three bags of Dope Yeah, and so we know wait. I'm. You're out there looking for three D. glasses no no, but anyways, some three days. Whatever I said maybe IT'S A to D. and. Took it home and they gave you two bags. Yeah. I, also got. What do you call it like robbed? beat. I got beat by these guys like, yeah I. I've got inside the bomb going to go in the bar wait outside and then there must have been a back door so they took our money and somehow got out but then these other guys. So to d took it home shot it and like and you asked me years ago. How did you know I'm like I, knew right away that we'd been beat this was not dope and it was horrible. Oh, my dad's for phone. On he has dopey nation if you didn't know my father has. Maybe five phones in this apartment. So there's two in the kitchen one in the living room, which is not three feet from the kitchen. To his office, maybe six phones one in his bedroom it feels like you're in a telephone and the phones are ringing in a telephone store and it's like I don't know and I say dad when he has a cell phone. and. He's addicted his cell phone to back to the angel dust the dust. Yeah. So I immediately knew it was not dope and it was not a good feeling. It was I can't remember the details. I remember not being able to stand up and crying, and then it lasted a long time and I knew right away. The dust. These phones. All right that was more spam calling my poor father back to the dust back the dust when my father was dying he was getting these spam calls and I screamed at one of them I'm like you motherfucker don't ever call here again. My father is dying and you're in the guy was like I'm just doing. What my boss told me to do that. What the Nazi said is that what you said and then I told my father and he got very upset that I like yelled at telemarketer. That's funny and my mom was dying my dad almost attacked some dude in the street that went up to him for money Oh. Man. It's the grief the grief brings out the violence. Yeah. Well, my father's phone rang like this every ten minutes and and also suspected them of like having gotten some money out of him for something. But yeah, the does it was just like a terrible feeling. I can't imagine why anybody would want to do that twice and I couldn't walk I couldn't. was uncontrollable crying. I had to go to work the next day and I got to the subway and I broke down in the subway and I called friends of mine from a payphone who lived nearby and can you please come get me and helped me take me all my couldn't get home lasted a long time was horrible. Did you ever do it again? Oh You know when I was in high school somebody saw me some weed and like I give them the money and they handed me the bag and they're like by the way it's dusted and I'm like, no thank you. I gave like, I, don't want this dust was famously the only drug that Chris and I had never done I had never done. GHB. Neither of US had ever done dust. It had gone offered to me. You know one time. I I think I've told this story like a million times on the show. But when I was in college, I would smoke weed everyday and I would I would take whatever drugs I could find the night we had just transferred to purchase. and. There were pretty girls sitting in the field smoking a bowl and it was dust and I was like, no thanks it was a bad girls. They were bad bad girls but I can't believe I didn't smoke dust with them but there's a bunch of guys that I know from. That work where I work that became dust heads and like now they're fucking selling scrap metal at the junkyard all. Day. Took them down like big time I did not get it at all. It was the worst feeling. I mean, maybe I got bad dust. dopey nation. If you guys smoking dust sending an email, you asked me on the show. You're like, what did you do and I was like I, cried would it be people usually turn cars over and kill cops and I just cried in my apartment Dust supposedly makes you crazy. I'm managers crazy. He always smokes dust. He's got his own room at the back of the bus who's that? That's the BBC boys. All right. So I have taken a real interest in my program I. Don't know if you know this, but my program is fucking on fire. We've noticed all notice they've well so I was I'm working with this dude. Sixty two year old guy and we read the book every week he calls me every day in a way. It's made me like better and other ways it hasn't done anything. But in some ways, it's made me better and I was sitting and I was reading it's not going to cure you overnight to like me sure there's. It's going to little tiny increments and it reminds it reminds me of. Work that I should be doing. So I'm working with the sponsor realizing that I have so much work to do with my sponsor. So after I got off the phone after I stopped meeting with my sponsor I called my sponsor and we started talking about resentments and he's been asking me to Redo my fourth step for. Two years or something have you started writing it? So yesterday I started writing and I was writing. I'm writing I'm trying to think of who I. Mean I did a very comprehensive fourth step four years ago or something but I'm like you know I'm a little bit spiritually blocked and I I wanna like do it again and I want to do the steps with the new sponsor. So I am writing on people and I'm kind of like. Mike not, thinking of people that I really have a lot of resentment for like it's difficult and I wrote down even wrote you down and I. Think trump grasping at straws trying to come up with people that I resent what is your resent I crossed off the list I was just thinking maybe I resent Ray I, cross you off the list but Making the list of he came the list and then I'm thinking about dopey conto and I was thinking. You know who would be so great to have at Dopey CONTO. Is already. So I start writing. I start writing an email i. thought you going to say Dylan who's Dylan Bob Dylan Bob Dylan fucking sells whiskey. He's not coming to dopey time Victoria's secret I. I don't know why he sells whiskey though it just seems so strange to me Ma'am please don't talk already again. So. That by if I talked know I had a concept driving into the city. You're a talk show called stocking right the stock show that maybe that could be a and the idea is you pick a famous person and you stalk them until they're on your talk show you hang out does basically. But like I was thinking of stalking Howard Stern I mean that's dangerous because he has armed bodyguards well, he lives not that far away from me in a in A. But the Moat Right? It doesn't matter. So back to the. I'm writing out my fourth step and and my mind wanders to Dopey Khan and. Managers. Information. So I start. Writing him an email and I'm like, you know what and then it catches if Dominican guys says, no, what they don't say you know what they say matter of fact, they don't say no. So like. If. They were telling this story they'd be like so I was writing my email matter of fact, I'm going to give this guy a call you know. So that's what I did. I said matter of fact, matter of fact, I'm going to give this guy a call. and. And I called the dude and the dude never picks up but he picked up and I was all scared. You know what? I mean like usually it's a voicemail like hub. Remember me. Usually. It's a voicemail for his comedy. I was like Hello Tommy. My Name is David I do this podcast called dopey and he goes yes I, remember you David and I said well, I'm working on a project it's called don't be too and I was wondering if maybe Artie could come on the show and I was just wondering how already was doing was your voice dot high now but that's That'd be like, hello. And I talked to Jim please that's how me and my friends would college other. So like fuck in Tommy's like ours, he's not doing anything. He talks like this is or he's not doing anything for the rest of the year. and Said Okay and he has maybe next year. I said okay that's great. House already doing he said he's doing great spending a lot of time with the family. He's healthy. He's doing great I say great. I'm so happy to hear it and he goes. I. Go listen. Just. So you know I think you'll be great. If he came on the show I, think it'd be great for already I. Think It'd be great for the show I. Think it would be great for the audience. He has 'cause you're definitely on my radar he said I was like Greg could be bad. Then he said he said what I don't want is I don't want you showing up at Koumas studio with a hat anymore right So, then I take out your own radio I take out my fourth separate resentment list and guess who's going down on the list. Already manager and already and already exactly. Yeah. Failsworth thinking as a making this list if anybody pisses me off there on the fucking list. But little do I know the list is going to boomerang back to me? Isn't it? What was my part in that with like my part was stalking already and getting his manager mad at me. How did I get his manager mammy because that's his manager's job is to protect Weirdos like me. I mean I when I was writing mine, I like this person works like well because that was their job to make sure that thing happened perfectly and I could have been the fuck up in it even though I wasn't. Well I'm enjoying this fourth step and I, think that you might make the fourth step by the end of today. Why? Don't know better. Walk the straight line. What do you think of the stock show idea? I think it's bad. You think it's already this show and like. The worst. Aspect of dopey stocking these people to. Have guests if I know percents no cheesy I thought you were chasing Maryland across the park. It was Steve. And that's another news who liked my music while he doesn't like by only known like if you like my music come on the podcasts that was before you were on the podcast, Daddy liked your music. And Steven? Obviously, if you know anything about Steve Earle his son recently died of an overdose that was such an awful story and that kid is talented but my point is because. I'm so persistent borderline stocky if you will. I get the show made, which is basically how I got this guest on the show Jake. The Snake Jake, the snake. I don't even know how it happened I. Think I was. Commute on the train and I was looking for movies to watch and I saw this documentary called the resurrection of Jake, the snake and I was a huge wrestling fan as a little kid and. I Love Jake the snake and this movie is like this crazy redemption story I've got to see this movie now basically jake the snake was. At his bottom super heavy over weight drunk in a wrestling circuit that he shouldn't have been in a a life that was out of control and it had gotten like he went to some match really drunk and and something embarrassing kind of happened in on TMZ and there's a guy called Diamond Dallas page big. World wrestling. Federation. Guy. Jake had. Was His mentor. Do you have a mentor? A mentor yeah. No me neither I've never had a mentor nobody decided thought. I wish you were my manager and you would like because I never do anything for my music career but you would be like you'd have me at the garden maybe I wouldn't I have me and my dad's kitchen right away. Anyway so Diamond Dallas page set up this yoga program this wellness program, and he invited Jake as house and basically got jake back on his feet and the movie is kind of the climb back into sobriety and that was around probably right after Kris died that I had heard about the movie and I started reaching out to jake the snake long yes this is what I'm talking about with my persistence slash talking. I had a woman named Sarah West Strip who was very helpful in making the show she got US Alaska, Thunder, Faulk, the the great. What he called Drag Queen. She got US didn't like that one I did she got US Margaret Show. The the comedian and she got Jake, the snake number and I jake the snake already to go and it didn't happen like a year and a half ago and I've just stayed on top of stay on top of it and I wound up hearing back from his daughter and she hooked up this interview. But the thing about is that Jake's very sick. He has COPD. For Chronic Something Pulmonary Konica obstructive pulmonary disorder I think and he has a very, very hard time breathing. So he said if he has a shortness of breath, he's going to have to get off the phone and a couple of times during the conversation his lungs he got short of breath and he had to end it short but talking to him was an honor and. I thought it was pretty amazing. It's a it's a rough story and that like wrestling is like the one of the lower rungs of show business don't say that it's not tell that to Dwayne the rock. Well, it's the biggest were most they'd started as a weird wrong. It's like carnival is a carnival, but it's it's very, very weird but it's it's like theater arts whatever and it's kind of like like rock and roll in the Seventies. Off, the you know it's not mainstream. It's like anything goes. Exactly and Jake the snake came up in the craziest era. But enough with this introduction here it is jake the snake, Roberts? So basically, this is a big honor for me. I've. been watching our next guest since I was a little kid. Jake the Snake Roberts welcome to the show Jake. And I was trying to tell Jake about the origin of the show and just so you know like. With a buddy of mine who I met in Rehab. Yeah and to tell her stupidest drug stories. and. and. We did it for two years and he wound up relapsing and overdosing and dying. Is Terrible and but we've built up this audience of drug addicts and they call themselves the dopey nation and it's very beautiful thing you know. I want to be a part of you are a part of it man you now you are a part of it. About. When he died I think I watch your movie. The resurrection of Jake, the Snake Roberts and it is insane. And I've just been absorbing you for the past you know long time and. I've been watching one documentary after the next and it reminds me when I was a little kid I would watch you on like USA network. You know going up against Junkyard Dog and Ricky the Dragon steamboat and all that Shit, and you were a superhero you know. That's so crazy that you're not a superhero did and you're also obviously a drug addict. So how did you deal with that sort of fantasy? Well. I. Never had a problem in the ring. Okay. I can figure anything. Anything you know, hug you make sense of this. Stupid idea ever I can make it work. But. My problem started. When the matches over. Okay. Over. I wanted to keep going. You know like the high the high. One that German rushed you go along the Angie's emoluments. And of course, what happens is? Illegal building. With all the tears and the fans they're all the bullshit. And you get into function rental car and you drive the fucking Bullshit Hotel. And you go tearooms you such shutdown as soon as you search your ship down the phone starts ringing. Solicit. She's lonely. She's miserable. Why aren't you home? I'll my God have nothing to do. The House got some property just do whatever you want. Something called me. Right. You know. The. Wonders for my rooms. And Looking for any type clubs. Information. We're still a man. We've got our shit together. that. I'm cool I'm ban JJ. Whatever. Yeah, you can get out of your ad, right like you're you're you're this character during the day you it's like a Rockstar you have all this time to do nothing, and then all the sudden you're everything in front of you know twenty thousand people and then you go home and your wife is pissed and you need to get out of your head. Yup. So you do. Much choice was drugs Nolan. Women. Yeah. In all of the absorbing your story. Obviously. You know you came from. A very tough childhood. Like even saying the word tough doesn't do it justice. was. To be molested is. Not. Is Horrifying. Does to you. It doesn't even register what it really does show you can't tell ally visit slumped you up. All your relationships moving forward. DidN'T TRUST WOMEN WHY? Well because my mother pretty much abandoned me. My brothers and sisters for giving away. Alcoholic Grandfather, and my grandmother. Job is constantly look for liquor bottles so she can pull them out because my grandfather's alcoholic your grandfather was such a bad alcoholic. I think the audience would relate to the story he was young he was injured and. You tell. Loyal job accident was. Shania, ratified he'll back in those days they would drill everywhere hearings north sanctions. and. Coworkers you'd drinking. got into the trump was doing. donuts in the. Bud. Slid into the racks pipes and the the pipe rolled. In these pipes should very heavy on three hundred pounds each. crushed his legs and The first thing they to do is anti and he refused that now no. I'm thinking of the world as Leeson. So he refused the amputation and in those days in the twenties or thirties. The way they dealt with that was they would let the boat he'll, and then they would re brace. Relying more. Little by little. So they broke his leg like four or five times. Over a year. Now because hosein diesel except the morphine. In those days, the junction was out of words. Now, how could anybody how could they released because he was on morphine for for six months or and then they just send him In here and they charge him out. Well, she's got a little bit of Niche. World. Now you move forward forty years. He's been drinking the whole time thirty straight. Every day he has a bottle. Not He'll crazy. Absolutely bank ship. Crazy. and. By the time. I started realizing what was the on Eight nine years old. Point of. Gilead Amazon is the fact that the big deal you know Patriots dollar fine she bill. In the sixties. But. They didn't trust you to take this call of news interview says, of course. It works it works I tested. Canadian eighty and I am I can't that Shit. punctured get sick. Oh. Shit. Anyway. They didn't touch. Thank you. So you would tend to take a taxi. To the doctors on every morning seventy. Wall missed shot. They aren't. All right. Go outside get in that same taxi. In. Drive four miles to the nearest liquor store. And get a bottle of liquor knowing that he's done. Shit himself notes out a lot. But that's what he's going to be like. So I came home from school, my grandfather would be pass out of the chair. Sometimes you told opponent sell sometimes we pissed themselves sometimes, it should herself. Not many people come into my house other. You. Know. Everybody else I was hiding I've been hiding all my life. You know I wasn't hiding from my stepmother was hiding. So my grandparents live the horrible things that I was seeing there if it wasn't that he was my sister who was wound up great you know after murder. I'll always hiding from something running running running. So. Added Team of Star I had to do something about that because people wanted to know what I was about. James Tell people about. People this whole shit. To, get Holly Outcome Star in Geological Adult Find out they were like me. Right that's four I will ginger I when I was watching the movie. I wrote down this quote and it was very emotional and you're talking and the man that like. Basically helped save. Your Life is Diamond Dallas page and he invited you into his his home in. His Yoga and helped you e-right and get right and and you had this moment where you said Jake, the snake is supposed to be a bad motherfucker that don't give a shit about nothing. And that's who you were supposed to be and the audience needs to know your mother was twelve years old when she had you like this is not. Thirteen. He was. Conceived from rape. It's like a myth and you wound up carrying the myth to the highest of heights and like the fact what happened. You know. You're obviously not to blame you know what I'm saying. But there's some. Of course. You know that's what people need to understand every second kids that are out there. It's all their fault they're themselves. World of suicide. Folks out there in order not kid right next to you. What they have to everybody that everything's Okay and they're happy kids. Live launch. So yeah. That's that's one of the reasons I think I was so good doing interviews and stuff. Is a very young age. I was forced to learn how to lie. To the point of my life depended. You hundred geologist by note, what's going to happen? Right. I don't I don't say the right thing fishy might may be the fucking shit out of me which she did write often. Yes. Absolutely. Bernie was something boiling water. Poured in my lap Oh, my God that's an interesting day. Stalled eject I love that. Shows like it is an unfair situation, but it's also like the craziest thing is like you said, it is the perfect storm to create a wrestler Jake, the Snake Roberts, who's who's a hypnotic speaker everyone talks about your ability to speak to the to the audience and and the psychology of it. They talk about you know. And, and you're talking about the pre attic manipulator that came out right. It's it's unreal I when I was a kid and I would watch you. You did you had that ability to transfix the world To make you believe my life to Doc. Do. You think you hypnotized yourself with that kind of style. Absolutely. Absolutely. And Win as a kid you know you had just the worst experience like when did you discover the ability to escape yourself through substances? Calmly a very young age Probably. Fourteen fifteen. Okay. The alcohol started Gel I started when I was ten or eleven. And that was just you know I'm fine. My grandfather's Shit I would say the big slug of it. Simply. Schaus little. Downloads fourteen or fifteen man I realized the. Boost I got from alcohol. How much better invading the he'll about myself and didn't make me feel better late me not she'll. Brink you had a break from your misery. And that's what people don't get. You know how will you giving a break? Why don't you? I'm better we'll because this is a real. Real are real quick. It's not real and you're on a timer. You know it's not GonNa last. I wake up, mushrooms go to. Because I know up doing I'm fucked up. It's unreal. Live is out of one thing. You said that someplace in one of the things I was watching, it might have been high thirty years have been fun thirty years ago like like, but it changes I mean I know that when I when I finally Got Jersey Orbiter Jill Yeah when I finally got got to it I was forty one you know when I got so or the last time and and one of the things that I kept telling myself was there was no way I was going to get higher. You know what I mean like there was no higher i. Did. You convince yourself that you might be the first person ever to do that. Wasn't me? You know how it is. That I ever genius myself I get there somehow and I did. I get. found. The. New Guy. In. The Way I get high today is. Is, I, do something positive. Impact somebody else's life. When you start helping people mad. No this. It does when you when you get that I. I contact with fucking drunk. said. He just out. Got It. The light went on. Man Does that you'll hugging go to what it takes innovative nothing else that takes you out of your head. You're not. You're not in you anymore. Exactly. Shoe the. Live on this spoke out of here. Yeah. I mean I can't I mean I've been trying to get you on this show for like years because when I watch you in these. On Joe Rogan or in your move or whatever the transformation is so emotional, you know what I mean watching you you when you went into the wwe hall of fame. I mean like, and this is an interesting question. I don't want to offend you here right when I when I watched the documentary and I watched into the hall of Fame Right? The emotion is so fucking real, right? It's so high. But then I think about your psychological performances how Do. You ever watch yourself when you're being sincere and get confused like what's real? No Okay No. What I'm sincere. Sick deep though, right? Yeah it is. It's very. You know I, I don't go out and play that card. I don't go out with and works to have magic. There's all. You know. Performance. For Instance Are Out there in the next day, they will have a couple of writers get with you and. They'll say we're not be flipped metron that didn't talk about inch know Blah Blah Blah I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm thinking to myself. Up to riders ride my ships. To you. All of it. We worked for about four and a Half Hour A. Trigger Amar Year Okay you when you say this out Yonder Elgin. That'll kill. It come time to go out I wanted. For my shoulders. On How? Thought, that? I sacrificed enough years down what everybody wanted. That, I should be able to stay in five minutes from Fuck Mike opponents saying what I really. Enjoy my grandson up there. Light you romantics so many surgeries It's crazy. To take. Each. Letting out today I'm able to do things. Without. Getting. Angelo. Bottle. For getting a hold of a crack pipe. Her grabbing some girl. Do these things down and handle. The, right way. Life on life terms I got out. For us on. That much. Mud? Drums. GonNa. The veil and everything else on. Them all at once. I understand what you mean. So let me ask you this. When you A. Whole occupation no, it's it's It's a sport it's athletic. It's theater. It's you know it's showmanship and when the wwe wants you to say something at the hall of fame, they scripted script match, right? You're and you come out and you speak from the heart and like it's so emotional I mean it's very powerful How did they respond to it? Well. They were really happy. Here's what I knew. I knew. That states hit something. Longest home run of the. I watched the People's luggage as out there. And In the under how strong it was. So. Vance although he did not get what he wanted to. Right. Off The charts. the people that were under coming to me. Tell me what a great job I did that interview. They turn around their attitude by this because it wasn't what he wanted society. But he's the ultimate control freak. He's the ultimate control. Right, absolutely you know these lobby, the bubble, the bubble will be. You know as a kid when I watched the WWF, I didn't know that he owned it i. didn't know how the ownership work and I was like who is this fucking guy? Like I love Nin gene I loved What was the guy? The gorilla monsoon I love that guy. He was cool. was he a good guy and realize gorilla monsoon? Because she was and Jesse the body was so great. Special News. As a commentator with gorilla monsoon, it was green hundred. Four million. Yeah he's. He's a he's a he's a big time crazy politician and it's so funny that you your journey to see all these things all these people along the way and obviously like with the movie like the Mickey Rourke Movie. The. Wrestler. All of these documentaries that have been coming out the last few years you know the Sheep Andrei your movie it's obvious that drugs and alcohol were at play in sport. Play everywhere bro Yes. Sir That's for sure. Corner Drugstore car somewhere. That's true. It doesn't be cocaine. Marijuana, but they're still driving. The alternate Really. Whether it's Abaco. Or? Go. Jake. Still. Yeah I still live for cupcakes and the drug that I miss. The most is tobacco I mean I smell somebody's smoking and I'm just there you know I haven't smoked in a couple of years but like that's something. Don't hate me Jake. You're fighting it got I had a little kid and and she started to smell it and my wife just kept bugging me about it. You know. And like describing when you're on the road and they call and she just kept bugging me about it and I had I had long issues. You know what I mean like I would just cough and cough and cough and cough. Cough up thick disgusting Mucus and I kept promising I would quit and. And I knew it was the same thing as like an a one is too many thousand never enough. There's never going to be a cigarette doesn't last forever there's no one cigarette there's just not one cigarette. which is what killed me. So I finally like I just drilled the kind of twelve step thing in my head around smoking, and then I bought one of those Shitty blue vapes. And I was like I'm just GonNa fucking hit that I'm not going to buy another pack of cigarettes. then. I hated the blue vape but I didn't buy another pack of cigarettes and that's how I we off of it. I mean I don't know if that's GonNa help you what's going on with you in smoking. Yes same. Fates worse than serous right. Popcorn lung. Or. Jeff Shane state visit are cigarettes looking doing such. Right but. How Progress brother about a half a pack you days so. I think the craziest thing for me is like, I, was a heroin addict. And I was scared of not smoking like I was going to go through withdrawal. You know like I wasn't going to be able to tolerate it. You know and it was bad. But it's nothing like fucking quitting drugs like in terms of physically. Knows knows. Or? Or it's. It's it's all fucking. Hell. What was I going to ask you? So what was the scene like? When you're dealing with professional wrestling and drugs like everywhere. Is it like? Wide Open. We have talked to seven of the builders writing stretch elected we wanted. It was crazy. And like was there camaraderie in using like did people get high together was that part of the thing? Sheer. Allot. honor Jerry users. Worst Shock. The door. By us. Right you're alone. Out, that's what killed. Right. And and following your your career, you know All of the Times that like you were supposed to like. Win A win a title or and your temper would come full. Never needed sign confirm I've watched. You were the best I mean like just the fact that you would. Like DT Hulk Hogan and the crowd cheers for you it's like doesn't that tell the story? Twenty million dollars. Right. And one of the biggest as a as a nerdy childhood wrestling fan the Ricky the dragon steamboat. Beef or or whatever you rivalry like when you wound up DD teeing him on the floor of. The concrete floor did he actually get hurt? Oh. Yeah. He was bad. You didn't WanNa do it right now bottom over there I said I can't do it. It'll chilly. Such. And he was he was adamant that he wanted to do it outside like Richie, you can't do it man I'm telling you I will kill you. And favorites are guiding George Scott. George. Shop was visiting dry and manage time. In fact, if you watch that Clinton he's the guy that option rain with her. light-colored suit Auden Tan colored at some point him on pointed a symbol. Deli. That's your fucking fault. I. But was dad but I knew he was sucked. Because, I had to pick you up at it damn chicken up weight like that is. Right. But I got him into the rain in. Two weeks for his and it gets swelling. Is it swelled out four inches. In. About ten days for his is turning by when they did turn Manley your. God it's terrible. But you're putting on a show, right? Yeah. You're putting on a show. Was He your friend? Over he was amazing he was he was fun to watch and you guys together were great to watch and and like so you hurt your friend and it's supposed to be what you wanted to do. So you need to be committed to the performance right Bright Roy. It was large. Crazy when was the first time? You did a coke oh gosh. Probably will as. Nineteen. And Nineteen or twenty. Mandalay's. Late shorter. Yeah. I wasn't going to. Get the planning. So I do he did what you had to do. When did it become something that became habitual? Gosh. Not until. Eight eighty nine ninety. You're making crazy. Money. Yeah. Should. Send the money. Just part of my my ship that I've ever done. To me was no different than having tape in my back. To. The snake observed McConnell. Okay I'm ready to go. Social you gotTa have a drug list leading. Yeah it's cranes. And especially forgive one. Oh my God. Now what are you GonNa? fucking. Like. What would you forget? Seventeen months looking don't get. Your weekend. So CIANCI bugging brings nothing. Lung. Cancer get shattered. Believe shedders by guy didn't show up. And how often when you would get to a town like there's a crazy like one of my favorite. I'm a big grateful dead fan and. Jerry was obviously all strung out on everything. and. They would send heroin ahead of the dead. So he didn't have to carry it you know. And they get to Philly or something, and he's sick. So, he like he didn't want to do radio interviews ever but because it didn't have dope, he goes to the radio station and he basically starts asking on the radio for people to bring it does. Yeah. Sure. I've done that. So how did that work it rockets through a story like that? You just you don't get area. So yeah, you Blah Blah Blah. He's just your story do this. Take John. Doe, my friends. Radio Station Sixteen bullying is out there shells. Because we get the message, right? It's like. Really. Hard for US SARS whereas. You has. Say. I lead by. Housing. ATLANTA. CHICAGO. I'm wrestlers Chicago. And then the next day I'm little wrestling Milwaukee. Over. So. In Chicago. And In my mind I'm Jamil, get to cover rental car mobility jail works out bags out on clean up all eight I'll build a building say. Out to play them talking she gets them baggage claim and there's this guy there you know. And he has a limo out short for you. Really OJ. So. Little. Get. Side their street naked women. With a big cocaine in the middle of a tape. I don't think I'm going to the gym now. Nobody ever paid me up nobody ever pick me up at the airport like that well. What happens you wind up doing shit all day all night. G. Get you to the airport at ten o'clock, Gordon. Wines Ego's own. Ego in the next town. Oh guess lot? got another friend their old. So, you just keep going. Don't you? Get. Two. Yeah of the next day. I. Do the same down again you know maybe. Where it's like you were being enabled and you are also being used at the same time. They, the girls of. Accepting involve. You're right in the middle of it by any watch put out there. You know they wanted to have fun too but. Really it was. My expense. I was on call all the time Shell. And you were also the main event you know they got to say they were partying with Jake, the snake. Had to tolerate your life and that was the high point like we were talking about before escaping escaping like self doubt and like not thinking that you know you don't feel about yourself what twenty, thousand, a million, four, million people around the world think about you, right right. That's the bay that always ate a whole list is like. People take pictures and shit with them. Now with their schedule, whatever it inside my mind is screaming slit shoot don't fucking know me. fucking Nelly. You know. How dare you want me to take a picture with your child? Realize what a junkie I am. You know what? I, what a loser I am. I'm living a lie and that was very that I hit a lot of. Guilt. Shame and guilt guilty. No. Shame as. They get. Yeah. But you got to put that on yourself. Everything else people lately? Legal you a shame you do that yourself you have to accept that and when you do that, that's that's when you really fucked shames a bitch. Yes. Yeah. I mean my when my daughter, my wife was pregnant we go to live birth classes. My pockets would be full of heroin and CLINETON's Zanex I for I know what it feels like. A great guy. It's funny though because just like you can only claim your own shame, you can only diagnose yourself as an addict to right right to. Your. As. Part of the turmoil managed all own mass confusion amass. Just bullshit. You nominee things we put ourselves through when you're an addict. The chances we take. In. Say. I've seen so many veins that I don't want to repeat. Because they were just horrible to watch. In the engine know that. As a society we we we've gone that far though seeing young kids addicted to crack. Crack cocaine and heroin. Turning tricks to get hot you know. The Fun and really. It's it's out there. It's fucking needle. Yeah is out there brother. There's lots more than we do. We know. and. The dangerous ones are not the ones that are admitting it the danger Forbes awards living lie. which you did and I did they were they will do anything to keep. Says when it gets dangerous, we both said it. But For me when I started. When I started, get straight started being open about it. That's you know that was two edged sword. One. Hand. Come opening up in doing the right thing. But on the other hand. the careers of the shock. Describe that. Because what I really also want to know is like the difference between riding high and the wheels coming off, it's like a weird gradual thing, right? Well. Some people. Did you happen overnight for others? You know can blow up in your face in the. Rambler good buddy minus bulletin face a year. Scots had a little problem and. You know the. Service again bureau anytime his services. It's fruity and that Scott Hall the Razor Ramon Right Right Sorry No, no, no, no no, it's fine. But and I I had more relaxes I had more fuck ups than I could count Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's only one counts. Let's the last one. Right it right. And that's how I know God's not a woman because God forgives and forgets. Woman may forgive you but shingle something forget share. Yes. Yes. You know and you something for those women out there. I was a slime. Dog Pitch. Nothing about me at that time my life. Happy face during the right things at home. Something I love my wife of course on my watch. Them I did respect her I. Didn't I didn't love it the way I should somebody. Destroyed that relationship. Destroyed it. Because I had the beats them to the punch. You Know Ryan goes I have my my idea of relationship with. So screwed up. that. I can look back through my relationships. Brethren pinpointed times when things were getting so good with being the lives that I had to call turmoil to get up a little bit because. I was getting really old. Right. Being real to to right. There's no there's no way that she's going to stay with you. Once she knows who you are. So you fuck it up first, right? Right because I didn't go let her get one that'll make sense at bitch. How could anyone of us? Stupid right I don't deserve. You know Blah. Blah. Blah I wrote down I'm out there for the guys get is early John. Jay, say that but I'M GONNA. Tell you. Here it is. Out It's In Party in, sell your wild oats if you WANNA call it that. And you start having sex with many different partners. Not, only you don't beat yourself up to get a it's. Some other disease. La might even name one after you say. The probably doing the three Oh maith but I will tell you this. I reached a point. With. Too many partners. Such. A real goddamn shore. The second united keep quiet Augusta point that hung dreading going home because San the pressure of having a Russian rice. And why? Why slogan is well, the problem is. Out. Many people, and now it's quite some fucking entourage just to get excited anymore. Right. One girl doing this girl doing that than you guys make the mental dropped as deposed under the spray to. Them Su I'm bringing clowns. Whatever just to get going right now that's not real pressure as. Other. It's also. It's also another level of the fantasy. You can't have that in everyday life. It's always trying to top something and and love is in that picturing usually. You destroy the opportunity of have a healthy sexual relationship. Right right now, what did you? Tell me. What else here's what's working for me. Stage for about four years. Four years man. And I'm taking baby steps. No. I desperately that sixty five. What most people have in very young age less healthy. Relationship with with a partner. Someone else to have a partner that I've never cheated. To have a partner that I've always done. Right I would argue that I can be some intimate with. The loan feelings that I've had in my life. That's the one that I created the most of because I. Because I never allowed myself to have that Adams. Gentle you guys out there that you're really putting notches on your sword stuff brothers. You're not. You're not. Doing is just taking Jeremy of bullshit fantasy. has nothing to do with the size of your penis or whether you're doing, right? You're you're guaranteeing more loneliness. Damn right. Did you want to be? Happy. You're really committed Get, really tied with with one versus nuggets seeing you can't implausible and make it work and be. And let her love you basically. Let her love you. That's beautiful. Let me ask you. You're fine. You're fine until you plug up. Or? You. Plug up just what? You've destroyed. It can knock jump back to that but yet. I forgive you which she will ever forget e. I I I got I lost my. My I never got married but me and my wife had a kid, she called me with heroin she left me and then five years later I got her back and we have the second kid now and and and it's obviously it's not perfect but it's working and sponsor said what I constantly fuck up Jake is that I don't keep my mouth shut my sponsors like you gotta keep your mouth shut. You gotta you gotTa stop. You know like like, what do I need more than a happy home nothing you know what I mean? To keep their mouth shut. Up to information this. Or just my well like what I want out this. Is You gotta remember that when you're staying stuff, you gotta remember not the also. Is less you're hurting someone else. Exactly. All that shit out there unless it's been called for specifically. So. You gotTA mighty free. Series. Well. Exactly. Exactly. Helpless like in wrestling men. Why did say works so well, well, because I never destroyed my own credibility, that's that's the bottomless. Jake, the snake said Jade's nate did. Stay with. Bad motherfucker no doubt. Guess. What? You don't have to say sorry to anybody can just don't do that. All right. All easy. Part is the other inactivation. For me is like. It'll be like you and your girl and. You never cheated on her you've been together for fifteen years but then I jake Roberts comes down jaising shopper dinner in Oh. My God. You wind up a little tipsy and You. Feel? Really bad about fucking Mitch Mitch. Not Cheated on your wife, ever lover. Just what you're going to Tell me you're gonna go and tell her. Don't want anything in between your relationship, right? Seems like that might be a good idea but it's not. Because here's what happens to send you say I cheated on you? She. fucking words you had to save the middle. Class. Destroy your credibility. Now. That only she got trust you, she's going over her mind. Sucked around although you just got them saying you've never cheated before she does trust you at all now there's especially with them. What? Exactly whereas because you're you're trying to get him slowly that you'll run out. Yes. But. The thing is you've destroyed that credibility and you get back. It's the same thing in the region to destroy your credibility in a match. For forgive. Let you start over because they seem to your bullshit. Once. They see the bullshit is done. It's over. Who Have you seen that happen with? Who Have you seen the which which which big time people have you seen that happen with? Thousands of. The. Worst. Probably lex Luger right. Right, let's go. To. CHARLOTTE, and everybody snowed actually TC skipping and hop into the ring. He is on a destroyed, his own credibility. To do it. You Need Elaine. People see. Tony Mother's right. Right guys are pros. He'd never seen never J. J. gravitate every guy with three clotheslines. Because Three. We're balls. Liars were both twisters, right? You need. Any man, this man with an open shots like clothesline. Anymore watch some. There's bullshits. And it's phony shit. I. Don't care. If you are if I can cook and clean. Little bungalows line and you know stalemate autumn I do Netflix. I have no business in. and. That's the reason Jake Roberts because I didn't let people do that Shit Mix was where fantasy and reality kind of blurred for a minute right as well. Let's I. Always believed in what I was doing. My Grandma and my Stepdad Jami Sunny doesn't matter what you're doing whatever you're doing to the best of your ability. As allergy, it doesn't mean it's your washing cars or your brain surgeon do dudes the best your fucking built. As long as you do that, you're in good shape. Let me. Let me ask you this now I agree with you. You when you go from the top to like fucking bottoming out like. Do you remember the last bottom and like I always ask people about that on the show because I think it helps to recognize obviously even after you got into some sort of recovery, there were relapses by what what was it like when did you start to feel like you couldn't do it anymore or you knew that everything had gotten away from you? Well. Unfortunately for me, I lived on the bottom for. Awhile. Okay. There's not a nice place to be. So. not a later you. Struggling to make ends me. Others good in life. I. It's and That's when Dallas stepped in. It was all about the time. And John, it's not add money. From It kept going for a while. It's. Just got to get rid of all man you gotTa, you gotta be desperate to WanNa make that change. So when he came in and brought me out of where I was at. The. Deal was was when he told me. Going to be but. If you do it. I will take care of all your bills. While you're doing. Me Right. I'll tell you I'll play your plugging this up that your that your insurance I'll play everything. Even, pay your lives. When he said that I'm like I'm in right pill. Because I was tired of dodger that bitch. I was tired of running. The anger, the bullshit. Shame. Now. Got Guys. Obama bills. While did I get into the? House. What's the first thing? Some parents. Eighteen pounds. Shit I'd love twenty. There's. When those good things started registering in my mind. I was actually making a physical change myself. Legions League making a physical change twenty dollars. That'd make me feel good about myself did. How long have you been since I? Feel good about myself. Here's. Here's. And that's what you sir grasping boys those good moments. Those, they are real. Yeah. and. That's what brought me back. But I'm glad to get all your fairly quick under the real short of breath. I've got the oxygen on it so. I appreciate you being on with me. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Definitely I do this about once a month. All right. Well, I'm here so I'll call you next month. Bro Jake you're an inspiration and thank you for coming on him. So the question is first of all, what an honor. For, me to have Jake, the snake Roberts on the show I think for a lot of people in dopey nation is going to be a cool surprise. Well, I also just think that this guy has been through the mill like you don't hear life. You don't hear stories like that. It's like or maybe you do but it still just such a fuck in. Crazy real salt of the earth crazy humility story and two survived a man with a little a little problems. But to have survived I mean some people have that and don't make it through some people had these lives and their seem unscathed by like somehow can like like shut it like a second skin when they're adults that was my life, and then some people have a little bit of residual from the student has a lot of residual. I have like the nicest childhood with like. Almost nothing bad and I'm like hanging onto the one too bad small things. You know when you mean just like whatever total sex addiction and drug addiction. Depression, a guy like you care obsessed. No. Perfect childhood nothing to complain about but I've found like things to complain about. But do you really think that's the story of your addiction that you found things to complain about. I. Don't understand your tying. Somehow you're saying I have sex addiction what you've been saying for like a week now a sex and love obsession. I don't think I'm any different than any other human listen I'm not saying that you're different than any other human and I'm not listen I. I think. And I don't think you're alone here and I'll put my I think that you use sex and love as an external thing to make you feel different, which is something that Jake the snake talked about to jake the snake craves intimacy because he's seen the emptiness of. Addiction. Because he's used people as drugs well I know that like it hasn't like all the things I've done. It doesn't add to anything. It's like it doesn't lead anywhere doesn't lead anywhere good and it could potentially lead to terrible plan if you think like I, WanNa sleep with like. A whole bunch of hot. Sexy people and then when you do it like it doesn't do anything. Well often I think a lot of I don't think Europe blown out pronounced sex addict I think you're I mean you said you had sex with five thousand people I don't know how many that's the number you quoted. Thousand People. And I think I've had sex with. Forty I maybe there's some people can't have pornography and they're. Now Dude some people can't look at like we talked about Chris Rock. He has he hasn't masturbated. He hasn't looked at porn and six months and he said he's living the life beyond his wildest dream I told that to a friend of mine and the things you said, no sugar. No Porno. Something Video Games and no. No facebook. My friend was like I've done without those things for long periods and it has made no difference in my life. Meanwhile, you're sitting there eating homemade ice cream masturbating wrestling. Youtube. Playing Video Games. I will say I'm not a video game guy but whenever I've encountered them by accident, I can't get away. I cannot stop playing it. I think you're an addict ray. Look up and it's like eight hours later when you did your fourth step. Are you done with it yet I haven't even started dude ray explain that to the audience so. My sponsor who also said to me all them by the way is there anything before you do that? Is there anything else about jake the snake that you'd like to say wouldn't it be awesome Jake, the snake came on next month like. I wasn't thinking about having him onto it because I was thinking about he said I'll come on next month. And I was thinking like Dow it'd be like a reoccurring guess it would be awesome I. See what's happening I would love to know I would love and he wants to be part of the doping. Though could be cool. He's like every two months we get an update call in from Jake and tells us what soap and his life or just like crazy wwf starring man crazy Hobie store I wonder if he signed. nondisclosure with WWE, definitely not because he's out there telling the stories also he has a book coming out in the next few months about his early career. That was something we were supposed to talk about but we never got to it i. saw he was in the Mexican Wrestling League and he was in a few other leagues or what we call those things organizations I think they were called territories. They were wrestling organizations that they broke up the United States into territories and it was like basically it's like just like you said with rock and roll and or the chillan circuit. For the title wave of corporate of greed in this industry like I remember watching wrestling when I was young like a child and it was a local thing and it was from like where they had cattle, they would turn the cat like a barn into wrestling and it was a local show but dusty Rhodes was on there. He he wear ringleted he that was another thing like it was a way for like a young me to see like half naked men. It was very sexy. The gains of wrestling is never. It's never discussed. I don't understand it was drawn to watch it. I'm like I. Don't know why. I WANNA watch this but I do I don't know what about these sweaty gigantic men and span making me so fascinated. But Ray the other day you were telling me. that. Something happened around your knee. That would be a really funny dopey story Oh well I. I've had problems of my knee, and now my doctor says I need a knee replacement. In the future not like tomorrow but I played this rooftop gig with this really cool girl who puts on every Friday night she has a rooftop Gig band she asked me to do it and then afterwards. We were in her apartment and she's like. She made some black garlic which minted garlic. She makes tons of it. It's like a career as a witch, right? Well, it's a Korean thing and and then we I she's told she cast a spell on the all the black but her being a which has nothing to do with being Korean, right? No. Okay. Her she was raised Jehovah's Witness. But. Then I ate the black garlic, which is like really good. It's hard to describe. It's kind of like a berry or a date very sweet is blackened fermented and then she said. She read my Tarot cards which I'm like okay whatever. I don't really believe in but the Tarot cards like rebirth than New Beginnings I'm like this is cool. I like that she was very excited but she's like I see a cop with share. On your future she was like these. These are so excited but she didn't choose the car I shuffled the deck, and then she had a spirit guide come into the room and choose the cards for me, and then she would you like me to do some healing energy on your knee and I thought she was like a wave waiver hand around for a second and she started waving your hand around my knee. Then she went into like my past lives and she found where the injury happened like hundreds of years ago and our previous lying listen lady I hurt myself painting I hurt myself a diving, the rainbow. Painting career of squatting. What did she? What did she find in the past? Like then she's asking she's talking to somebody who's not in the room she's like. Is He male female. She was getting answers and then she was talking to like a dragon fairy and is he Irish Irish? No, I'm. Not Irish. So. But then she's like the he hurt is like three feet below your feet. It's like in a shock with it's like below you and anyway she did all of that but I have alarm on my phone every day at six, twenty, nine, it rings so I call my sponsor. I thought she was going to be five minutes doing this. It was like thirty minutes and then they alarm goes off as she came out of her trance and she said, do you have medication you have to take and I was like knows my aa sponsor. I'll call him later. And then she just went back into it and she was doing this for like. Forty five minutes all but I wrote her last night and I was like you know what? My knee feels completely normal now. So maybe it's cool. Maybe it worked I don't know. Maybe. That wasn't as funny as I thought. It was. Well I. Think it's interesting and I think it's She cast a spell on your knee with fermented garlic. I think those were separate spells. I. Don't know what this has on the garlic was I should have brought i. have some house show. Oh. It's so funny. You know that video has been watched like a thousand times since we did it and I sing a new song I got a lot of people riding to me. It was very. I've worked with her a lot and she's very cool very talented and always fun to work with. When I lived in? La I had a job as an associate producer on this very shitty show on channel nine out there was called nine on the town and. I was. Really strong. I was deeply addicted to heroin. Did they know your job? They knew but they fired me But but I worked for a little while really high on heroin there and I've I've talked a little bit about this with Chris a long time ago I was so high on heroin at that job I worked there for probably six months in the bathroom. There was like a cabinet with drawers in the middle drawer I had I put like five twenty comics like I put a tissue box and in the tissue box, it was just full of Syringes Syringes and tournaments and. decided that was my drawer so I would go to the bathroom I would shoot heroin in their bathroom and read comic nobody would look in that drawer I. Don't know but it was pretty fucking bad that I would do that. So they they they had me like research stories and setup stories to produce and one of the stories I had to produce or I. Think I pitched it was witchcraft in Hollywood and we lived in North Hollywood. And like I like, yeah. We could shoot it at my house and we can have the witches do as ceremony at my house and my house it was really Jeremy's house. It was Jeremy Jeremy Todd lived in this and this other guy fell lived in this house this gigantic house in North Hollywood, Orange Central and I had all these witches came over to like burn some shit in the yard and like do a whole ceremony in the yard and I like spent the whole time in the garage shooting heroin. Jeremy was like what the fuck is going on I was. Like they're they're doing their coven their ceremony but I missed the whole thing basically but like. It's like one of those things that I wish. I could travel back in time and see I think it was just I was on so much xanax and Contin that I don't remember but imagine your half conscious and you're setting up a witches cut to come to your house. I had like a video, shoot it, and I was just way too high on it. It was like insane and you sound like David boy when he's He called his manager like there's witches in my yard casting a spell on you in the manager like those are your friends they're like in the swimming pool pick. So you believe that this spell worked on your name well, I would. I would like I believe in anything and it's just as logical anything else. Why not as I always, our positive thinking your optimism crosses the line with denial as often as it possibly I try to. You wanted to voice mail or email. I wanted to say about fourth step that. I read mine to my sponsor. He also said you didn't do the forceps. Explanation I'm still practicing, but he's also said be very careful mindful about who you tell your doing a fourth step because I mentioned that I told somebody and he's like well, that's problematic since you're on his show that discusses sobriety it's hard for you to not talk about four but I had to bosses that I had a resentment against for like was like stealing money from my paycheck and the other one like said, I, wasn't doing my job right but like on on heroin and I was stealing from the register and on the other job I was on crystal meth every day and I, did fuck it up because I was out on my mind so. Like. There's there's both sides to that story when you're writing your fourth step like when people piss you off, are you like? All right you just made the list I've put some on. That were very current but we're still rehearsing I haven't started writing. Have you ever heard of that I've never heard of that? No, I've never I've told some people in the program I've never heard we've done like two months of rehearsing I've written. I've written ten pages with that. Wow. What that tells me is your sponsor is a very, very rigorous motherfucker I feel like he's very well qualified and I feel kind of weird when he says like don't talk about anything with the program and I, come on here and I do that but he knows it I do that and he knows about the show but he's like, yeah, it should be anonymous. You should never talk to anybody that's not in a meeting people sometimes right in and say like what an amazing twelfth step dopey is like carrying the message of makes sense. Yeah that's. and. I've I've told that to my sponsor my this is some of the positive things I've had from talking about anything of like people right to me and they're like you've helped me so much like how did I help you? I'm just like a loser and I, but J.. Figure out how not to pay to wash clothes. But just by people saying that it's like well, all it was doing was talking about my stupid life. It's help somebody somehow people said that about the show and then about me specifically, I think it's great. I never thought about that. The show is a twelve step I want to ask you this would you rather hear a voicemail or read an email? Let's hear the voice mail. It is from an English lady and she is responding to the DJ fat Tony Interview. You Eddie Yup. Okay. I'm going to try and do my first bit dopey story for you Dave I felt inspired by the. Incident. Thought Tony who is Kind of a big deal on the scene I was partying in my sort of active using policy days so. I was working in the Nightclub Heaven Nas working at the coach check. This is about two, thousand, two, thousand and one something like off and there was a big party that we will all the staff at heaven went to after it's cooled trade. Tony talked about this club and trade with this. Incredible after Hours Day party just bananas like they used to have dealers like tape like an open markets and people queuing to get whatever they want. Bananas. Techno hard house funky house drag queen celebrities, gays lesbians whole. The whole nine yards. It was such a spectacle. and. It was a time when Katimin was coming onto the scene as well and I never really did well with. Cattleman my friends absolutely try and steer me away from it. I was the time kind of following the fashion that's going on on the scene where people would wear. Belts on the side Sumo's backwards. For whatever reason that was kind of like a fashion at the time and. I was at this party at trade. Dj. Tony was playing and there was a woman who starting to show an interest. In Me and we don saying it was like eleven in the morning ten ecstasy pills later, cattleman cocaine the whole thing. And then it was think eleven twelve and midday live in in the morning and she said Oh do you want to come? To a chill party where Tony is and For me as I said that basically a kid, you know like twenty year old this was a very, very excited ticket invitation. I was like. Okay okay. I'm just going to the toilet. So I went to a toilet and I'm so I'm really hammered of taking him in and. Being a human is becoming quite difficult by this point coordination. Basics it's difficult and the bell has slid. So the buckle was behind me. I suddenly occurred to me I. Don't know how to undo the buckle back. And Kept trying try. and. Then I got point or it so desperately needed to take a piss the. Dawned on me I. Don't know how to do this I. Don't know how to undo the buckle behind. By my back and Then, there's this moment Morris up something gave up. And I, just I released. Its folks. And so that it. Could appearing myself it also becomes clear to be. This is not how I see myself making an introduction and. East in a circle. So I ended up going to the Woodward. Really. Liked rethink. Support Myself. Out. I hope no, one would notice others Saddam really saw. Come. Up to my usual grew fifty eighth who I knew, I could just tell them because like we see each other do. PYSSLING. Home. And so I went to another. Grey friends where it was fine and they do trials. So just they seem to that fat Tony Story. Baby, remember that day I got invited to chill out to hang out with him and others and my bladder and this fashion of wearing a backwards. Anyway I know it's not like. Super Super. dopey but it's kind of funny space story which I'm sure Chris will be enjoying from. From the beyond. So Anyway fucking toodle for Chris all of us take. Great story that was hilarious. Love the laughter and that's from a time dopey listener. I. Don't know if she wants me to say her name I'll just call her fe but it's a great. I was I was laughing out loud here listening. Could relate like although I like taking ketamine in a nightclub like you just won't know how to function like you all know how to walk how to undo about. Seems Dangerous. Yeah Ketamine folks you up. Do you ever do ketamine? Did. It Ketamine. Ketamine I did once on purpose and a lot of times by accident mixed him with dope. Well I mean it was mixed in with my dope and know it I think it like you remember the old This is one of my favorite jokes and and nobody gets it. Do you remember the old folger's Crystals Commercial Marshall and the commercial would be we secretly replaced favorite coffee with ultrasound. So like basically secretly replaced my hero. When I would shooting dope and it was ketamine and like that was the story where I like I would sleep walk all day. Locked out, your apartment would get locked out of my apartment and. Calming. Down Komeda fucking. But. I was thinking she could have gone to the party I. Don't think anybody would have known. Now, no nightclub. That was another also reminds me of. Something that I shouldn't say that I repeat everything on the show and over again but we have to I mean the shows five. Into Todd when todd do coke his fear was that he was always peeing his pants and that they would see really they would see that he was peeing without knowing he was doing that like they would see the he wasn't being his pants, but he would think he was and then he think people would see the urine a weird one. All right. We gotta go feed the meter. freaked out because I thought I was going to get a parking and I totally forgot. I thought you were going to get a ticket well, I put money in a meter, and then when I went out to get the guitar I, had my guitar fixed when I went out to get my guitar fix I put more money in the meter. o- forgot that. So then now meteorites up. I just want to say we it was more than two hours Oh. Yeah. I wanted to say that Ray I did the first dopey Patriae on Zoom, which was very fun and September. It was beautiful right? It was great and like a lot longer than we thought but it was fun till the end. Conning up is the dopey Patriot on Halloween zoom with stash word, which means it is a game show that anyone in the dopey nation who is a patron and wants to come on the dopey nation Patriots Stash Zoom can play and you my friend are going to be like Vanna White. I'm going to turn the letters something like that. Maybe you'll read the questions maybe a call on people to answer questions. Okay I don't understand any of this. I was so bad at the first one and then I learned I learned on the job. So it's probably going to be the same thing Yes ben Crawford help you out. Week our next week on the page on zoom, it's going to be a game show an interactive dopey game show. Prizes. I'm going to open up the zoom with nobody on it or maybe I'll get somebody to be on. So I can figure out how to do all that stuff like how to raise your hand how to how to. On Mute. I think maybe you should do a practice how be patriots how to turn the letters yeah I didn't practice that at all, but I thought Ben would be my co-host, but then I didn't set it up so that I could have a cost so far sounds like you should do a dries zoom run I'm going to do that like tonight. The twenty, four, th. Yeah you got another week maybe this Saturday night. You should do a test. You know what I'll do. The test is like the day of the twenty fourth like during the day. That's how I but they're gonNA get worn out do it the night before the night before all right here's a dope email not that adobe. Damned, Dave, try a little patients with dogs. They give unconditional love and trust their humans to take care of them. If the dog was throwing up his shit, maybe he was sick take him to a vet. That's what they're there for. That's no reason to throw him away and give up. So soon, however, still love you in the show I just can't believe you guys gave up on him. So soon, try. Another dog, they are great for kids so many get killed every year because there's not enough love. It's so sad love you and the dopey nation. Anyway this is the best podcast and my listen every day to get caught up. Just try a little patience next time I. Hope that when you get this, you'll try have another dog hopefully a different breed. This is not to Piss you off. So stay calm. There is one in a million dog. This most dogs are cool but there's one in a million that are not cool. Maybe you got that one our dog was fine. We just we don't have enough love in our home to share with the dog there's a lot going on in. Your House. Like Bedlam. Yeah. In like it's just listened. Nee. Day. Dawn I see people with no no hairless rats either. Hairless rat that's what Linda wanted to get. God listen it's this. I. See men with dogs I don't dislike docs and I have to say this. I love my family. I Love my children that a rat terrier rat terrier but you've seen me with my kids obvious. How Much I love Mike Oh yeah. I Love my children. I don't have enough love to share with the dog I love Dopey Dopey is my dog. Is My dog I don't have time to fucking train a dog walker dog curb a dog in dopey is the dog. If I have a dog, your kids can't play with dopey. No, the kids cannot play with open. But true the kids play with the cat. I, had the cat I. Think they're not quite old enough to take care of a dog themselves. They're not quite old enough to take care of a dog themselves and it's so much work and guess what guess who would have to do I told you that you're going to do everything with that dog and guess who is incapable of? Taking, care of you. I can't do it. It's a lot of work. So so dopey nation fucking pita whoever listens to this show that wants to have a dog think of the dog the dog shouldn't have me like maybe in like two years, you can go down to SPCA and look at a bunch of dogs and choose the one. You're like now not two years I'm thinking tenure. We, do not need a dog with these kids like the the kids aren't going to do it I. Love that she's not going to do it. I'm going to have to do and I can't do it. Happened go to the track or tracks get a greyhound. The fact I heard Dre greyhounds aren't nice breeds. Greyhounds the fuck are they nice they're so nice. Won't you get a Dog I? Oh, this is I fostered greyhounds for years. I've had like fifteen greyhounds in my house and they're the sweetest dogs. Yeah, they're really nice I have another dopey story. An actual drug store and you want to hear. This is you. Know I mean I ever? Did you ever take drugs days every year. I there's a dopey story I never told on the show and it's not like a killer story or anything but I always thought it was funny which was when I lived in La and I had no work. Eventually, I was like I need to get a job. I wasn't working my girlfriend was paying my life. I've just found out about this episode of Your Life. The you live there for eight years or something I lived there for eight years and I was supported by my girlfriend and I didn't work and I just did drugs. I thought you were there for like six months. Now if it was a really long six month and North Hollywood do know I lived in North Hollywood with Jeremy and tied, and then I moved to echo park with my ex girlfriend. And I got a job. Working. Working at a school working for a kid who had some kind of like issue you know what I'm saying he was like slow or like he had some sort of something issue and I was assigned to him as his aide. Okay. Years drug addict and I was high. You know what I mean and the kid was probably ten or eleven or something, and I would take him to school and I would sit in class with the class. So it'd be a class of ten or eleven year olds and this old junkie that teacher and me and I was proud to twenty five. Thirty, thirty two and I was like an Adam Sandler movie it is. It's like okay but it's worse. Do you know why? Because this is how fucking retarded I am an excuse me for using the word retarded. This is how fucked up I am or was that when I was in the class, the teacher would ask the class questions and I would raise my hand. and. I would share in front of the kids. Oh. My God and then I would and then I would ask questions like we're the teacher would call on you it is but I would ask questions. Wait a second did Thomas Jefferson did this and I would make points and I think for the first time in my life I felt smart when I was thirty in the fifth grade. And I don't remember how it ended, but it could not have ended. Well, this has to be in the movie I. Know It's So sad I mean it's funny but it's so sad right imagine that where's that kid I don't find it I find it just air you think that kids like strung out in downtown. Is like when I was in the fifth grade, they gave me this old man to hang out with and he was like obviously high and he would answer questions at my school. It must have been so embarrassing people like I don't believe you that didn't happen. Anyway through what agency did that happen? I took too many bands those to remember anything. It's the same reason I don't remember the witches coven. Just you know I don't know. All right raves another pleasurable show. Did you have fun I love the last last thing on the list is very funny which I don't think we're going to talk about. Well We're in a meeting and we were talking about I think we were talking about love or family or something and I think we're talking about God and love and I shared how my father like. You know has his issues with God. He doesn't doesn't believe in God and he doesn't. He says he understands. How a higher power in God equate but he really doesn't he really what he's doing is he's humoring us that we say higher power and he's like well, if that keeps you off drugs. He doesn't understand that a higher power could be everything. You know because my dad is very literal. He's he's a very literal old man higher power is like the universe. Yes. But I'm speaking to my dad right now. I think you're very young man my dad is at the. End of his young part. That's how I feel. You are to the two of you. I had a terrible fourth stuff experience. My sponsor wants me to have a name not like some dude in highschool. So I got my high school annual yearbook and looked up this guy and I got his name and then I thought, let's see what my teachers are up to and I started googling my teachers all my teachers are dead. They're all dead and one of them had like on her vase mccur on her deathbed. She's like I'm terminally ill and I'm committing assisted suicide think I could stop Google googling them. Like a friend of mine put up a video of like us in College at a punk rock thing and everybody's dancing and punk rock and they're all dead. They're all dead. There are a bunch of them are dead some of them from like heroin the rest of them died of old age they they've died of old age. Reminding, age So. Anyway, I'm sharing something nice about my father I was just joking that my he's a very spry seventy, seventy six. That's that's gives me hope I have fifteen more good years but he and he didn't live hard like you'd it. Anyway so my spout how. Dove into a crowd of teenagers at a Rainbow Joel. Might add never licked urine toilet rim nor flaws his teeth with pubic ever shot. They. Never shot. He never collected pubic. Enemy, you Bake Care Bosnia bottle of whisky there. I'll drink a bottle of whisky. That salad dressing right. That salt. Now that's Maple Syrup. Drinks a little bit. He drinks socially anyway. My sponsor said was that his father gave him one piece of advice things which was to marry a woman with small hands. So his penis would look big. Only when she's old in it. Right but that Time Quick Grab my Dick. Well, my sponsors a very spiritual person and it was a joke and he's so spiritual that even the women at the meeting laugh. That's that's a fine. Story in Manhattan, it would not have I've seen plea people go down like saying things they think is going to fly and it's like, Oh, just killed the room. There's big news coming up by the way in the Thilo world. Those, going to get made, let's say a certain top CHEF CHEF is interested in collaborating with me on the Othello and we have a tentative meet up in November chef that's been on the show. It might be it just might be enroll Agasi. He's never. Stay strong. Don't be nation and fucking tools for Chris. Peters out. Doping Asian peace out doping. Later. Thank you ray I. Wonder. act. One. Man. Take. Long. League.

Jake Snake Roberts Ray David Chris New York City Grady Dopey Khan US California Park Slope Fucking Park Slope Hillis A. Dope Dylan Bob Dylan Bob Dylan heroin PASSAIC Google DOT Dave Dan Yeah