20 Episode results for "Jeff Rosen"

Mr. and Mrs. Spoon

Twinovation

1:08:43 hr | 1 year ago

Mr. and Mrs. Spoon

"This is a head gum. podcast all Asia and invest that money to open a piece of how how how would you folks. Are we all doing out. The welcome to twin invasion the podcast for your schemes dreams. Misdemeanor conscript Sophos anyway. You're making that money. We're here to help you Anne Hathaway as I'm joined by my lovely twin brother L.. Hefei the chef. Jeff Rosen comes in his dreams about to go lure shoot cheese and tomorrow night. She's the Queen Bee who's mind number A. She's on America Nikolic Yellow. Hey baby you guys. That's the crew for new listeners. Out There to innovation is about you know coming up with the million dollar thousand dollar even billion dollar inventions dreams To make all of us wealthy about the Isn't that the dream who need self esteem. When you have money? Why yes? You probably need soliciting to get money. That's true oh right and to get a good therapist you stay. What do you mean you know? Money money talks money screened. Actually when he goes agree agree. Yeah I would say. Hey if anyone didn't listen to a on was on if I were you. I listened to it earlier today. Very funny fantastic. Yeah that Posting it on the Patriot on On bleeped that road that route hand question. What's so funny? Yeah Yeah I mean. I guess. He don't like John. Mayer was the big pieces of information. We got out of that one. I feel like I've talked. Maybe it was on our satellite for feeling talked about it before. I'm going to be more with you on really here. Really irks me. He's a freeloader. He's a try hard. Plus you know. Know what he's really like treated Jessica Simpson. Who is an angel like Shit He's a he's a womanizer. At the end of the night I hear Jessica Simpson's drunk admitted we something's wrong. Something's wrong right. That's fine own and figure it out and post freaking me out like it's something sounds like I'm dead and I'm speaking from heaven is maybe you are you are. Oh Oh right the manhandle you women handle the Michael Too much. You don't respect the Mike I respect it so much. I wanted to sound just right well. And and we don't have a producer anymore head. Gum Cut our budget in half. That's nine that he's true. David talking giving us what. We deserve her blood sweating tears for the last four and a half years. You're right about that sister And we wish Dylan a speedy recovery over whatever he was in the hospital the last week or something we on surgery our producer editor producer. You'll better smell. It doesn't have anything to do. The Dylan will see. Of course I feel better dylan. It would be for the week of the a part of their show where we like to air out our grievances with society with each other more often than An I open the floor of course The John Mayer of course comes to mind but you know I did also see Johnny Depp. Trending this week on twitter. Apparently he got his finger bitten off by that amber heard news from from one thousand. Hearse Howard heard how do you feel that h. e. a. r. d. she with beating them up all right. You know what we don't the need this False in he's Muskie's today as well. Is that a thing yes. That's the thing Tesla Day. Have you been watching those tests on numbers. It's skyrock doc. In his early sixty percent today what manno something like that marks making a killing. Damn I you know I gotta get back into my game. I was just going to say. Please don't start talking. You guys should start your own stock market podcasts. It would just be into rambling know absolutely nothing about all of their stock market information from other people that know even let what do you mean. What do you think we're getting our information from? I think you know I think you're getting. I don't think I know Dave's like Reddit. Thread gritted NITTO. You're talking about wall. Street bet staves no speed. I watch the news I watch. MSNBC Cheddar Cheddar is good. JETER her solid Speaking of read it I think we should call out talking about beef of the week The person who said that they stop listening to to innovation. After hearing the Garbo mcgarvy episodes that like Neil from the Santa Claus like someone who their inner child has died and will. I think they were disgusted. Discussed it about two years ago. Garbo was two years ago or so. Now they're saying they stopped listening after that. We'll look good good riddance. You don't like Garbo we don't like you say and I completely agree i. Well I stand by Garbo its its essence with for Food Sustainability Sustainability. David and. I don't think there's anything wrong with eating food that you know the the garbage disposal is usually taken can offer our hands right there eating our good leftovers. I imagine it wasn't an investor and at the time now sustainability is a big thing. These still have the dish soap in there and everything we know. We actually don't even like to dish soap. We find it to be toxic true David they used on on on Don Siegel's covered in oil. I think it's good enough for you if it's GonNa enough for the lake any type of chemicals on any of the plate or fork than us so how do you clean. Remove order blazing hot water. Now that I know that David you're not gonna be doing the dishes anymore. God God is fine my vote. What do you think about that Johnny Depp Finger Biting I? I think it's news from literally. Like two thousand fourteen discounts or not. He's in he's been out of it since two thousand fourteen so now I use the way back machine sheen on On my computer which allows me to access the Internet from two thousand sixteen. So I'm reading these articles. I Really Hope Hillary wins and tastic. That is really really tough. Not Add up. I appreciate it. I'm actually pretty excited for my idea. I don't know if anyone else had any more beef stew. Sort of You know lay on the floor with the group pretty good here all right guys. I am excited to introduce our our prime rib of the night. He is steak and eggs all over. And you don't need any saucer salt with him. He's baby baby needs a little title crazy. How Dave what do you got for us today? Folks pose a question eh please do. What's one of the best things about cadre? Ling answers the warm armed that's cozy and it's loving. Well let's break down the mechanics a bit more a few. We're so real physical joy coming from I what do you mean an influx say. You're the little maybe. Yeah you're jumping on your back. I think having the heat on your back is better than having it on the front tough core like having it on the front healing. The little spoon doesn't everyone like everyone does look like being held old. Someone else right right and you you know selfish but even when you're the little spoon I will flex stretch spoon. But sometimes I feel like the you know the arm hanging over you can slowly become uncomfortable after a half an hour or so and to me The warmth of the timing to that back in the legs where most of the satisfaction stems. And perhaps this is just my Sciatica cut talking but I think I have a Burnley idea that will woo the nation to their feet. Their feet please allow me to introduce the Hiney holder more more comfort cutler. The first ever seat for your bed right now. Let me paint you a picture. Imagine a chair laying on its side atop off your bed all right. So essentially. You're moving share to a horizontal position. The seat in the back are perpendicular with a mattress right canal. When you lay down in bed not only? Will you be sitting in the spoon position but both partners. If you buy the the two pack can now simultaneously Ashley be the coveted little spoon. You never see the comfort of your funeral. fascinations without worrying about all the micro movements and you often you can see with traditional spooning Mr Spoon and or Mrs Spoon which is a new name of our. His and her product is made from a breathable polyvinyl vinyl than a strapped onto the mattress and frame allowing for minimum movement right. There is even an untouchable people or spoon belt with the Mr Mr Mrs Spoon to ensure that your comfy to the core Mr Spoon retails for seventy nine nine thousand nine while Mrs Spoon is available for Sixteen nine ninety nine for a limited time. Valentine's Day special as you to buy them together for the comfortable price of one twenty nine ninety nine so take care of your and give me a seeded. You did ovation because you deserve. Okay now David. If you wouldn't mind a we open the floor please. Florida has been open. What is this exactly? Is it like a body pillow that you're strapping to the back of you mean. Imagine imagine imagine a chair side okay was there and it's not a chair at all right but it's firm. Is it a pillow. No now it's firmer pillow like a Dick. Yes there's temporary use memory phone and what this does is allows you the back and it allows you the underbelly you know. I'd like when my when my him. My Ham strings are being pushed up up by gear quad. And this is what the chair will do for you right. And it's going to allow you to lay down in that fetal position while also having so you know the comforts of let's say your gravity blankets whenever you call now to share in a gravity sleep gravity blanket. Now let's come away to blink but we're keeping keeping the weight on your hand. Me's and your Harry. Sorry pushing that weight on them though. Because it's how does that happen because you're strapped into it. Yes you're strapped into the tighter you pull it The you know and we even have a strap that can go above your knees around the chair as well and can you need a partner to do this and you can do that yourself. There's a lot of single people out there. This actually caters to a lot of single people. That don't get the opportunity to be spooned They're almost little spoon. Big Big Spoon. I would've same time. So what's missing spoon. What's what what does that phrase? Mrs Poon Little Spoon because now Smaller big spoon. Yes shaw females tend to be a low but smaller than males. What if you want to have? What have you want to be the big spin interesting? It well then you can actually hold the chair strap yourself and back right. So you're staying. In this scenario take to people a couple. They each have after his in her big spoon right. So there's the other way they believe yes they can be back to back that way you know get the toxic breath of someone that perhaps as a rotten core. What about having a middle spoon where you know? Say If on wants to be the big spoon when she can be on the opposite side of your big spoon so you're big spoon. Is Her little spoon. That's interested in big is is like a Russian Dahlem of exactly exactly. Well I am a little worried about how cuddly or Mr Mrs Spoon. Yeah sounds like you're not making them cuddle enough. Why why would you not? I'm so curious. Why would you not make them? Cuddle firm their firm. Because you need you need Ca Speiser firm Homerun your your thighs are up against my Hammy. All right okay your thighs you know comfortable their firm aiding me. All I'm saying I can only speak from experience experienced what. Yeah that's what it sounds like right but you know you know how much I like when you push up on my legs all right David. That's enough what do you like that. What do you like about secure me in the fetal position? I also feel like it helps my back right and I genuinely just feel not only want to be cuddled. You want to be coddled. I WANNA be cuddled and the cobbler and so I called her and Mrs Cobbler. Yes that works that works I kind of wanted to get the SEO from taping like fish qods themed fish different different. So you know. I think this idea is really fantastic. I look back or specifically for you or the just Kinda Alex around you. The memory foam allows you to really insert yourself in there right as you see fit. Of course it's going to have bevelled edges that can curve a little bit around yet to sort of hogwarts hips or like the The peach pit for your back and your legs. It's too don't forget your legs you're putting yourself in a clam again bad for becoming a clam. You're not gonNA space in the bad for all these different Things thank you might think. Oh deep is we have three inch With on the back in the legs. Obviously there's no fee on this So which allows you texture curl your legs around the case. You really want to clam if you say you're moving your legs. Is it moving with you. Because you're strapped to it when you say legs. Are we talking knee down. Does it go that far down. No but you're moving. Your is moving pivoting went with your movements to keep you secure. Looks like a almost like a straitjacket career from from your shoulders to your knees right. That's correct That's interesting. It is isn't it and you said it's strapped into the bed is well you can't you know you don't WanNa rock much. We actually don't think you want to move around once you find that comfy spot so it strapped to you you're strapped to the bed correct correct What do you guys think I mean any more questions? I'm really open to answering any less less than like a memory foam and more of like kind of like like an airport like a like a plane the plane or the neck pillow plane. What's good about what's plainfield firm? A warm thousand giving warmth cause your body audie where using the re commoner technology. What's that just a recall? Mr For comedy came up with the dog. Dogs hold. That was a little bit different. I guess a little like the quack too. Listen the quack quack. Quack is just a box marat box having to do with these breathing warm things that you wanNA sleep. Does it breathe with you on with us. And we don't have that tech quite but we're thinking Q.. Three of twenty twenty one we will have that That breathable tech me. Just see this. Can you like we should add like A. I mean imagine just body is the chair right. Jeff Gannon chair but okay why not and so. This is the chair his his all all his ties. Let's say are in the bottom of the chair. And then his body is the chair of the chair and so what this allows me to do. You is to get the pressure. The a good but pressure that I like I like to help. Everyone doesn't need to know that so many times say. I don't think people people realize how important that is to the spoon edge. But what about the heat or is he. Coming from. The heat comes from the natural Pressure up your bag. That doesn't hold on there. There's he on my back now laying on this couch. The natural friction in the night in the night your temperature lowers i. Don't they're not asleep sweater. I am asleep the weather. I haven't been sweating. I've actually have had been having some pretty insane dreams lately. You know. It's hard to remember. Having some insane dream were Haag actually last night ATV or the new TV With some my college boys going nuts. I don't know what but we were having a ball. Boy Oy then appearing in some dreams too you know. I have a lot of people dream about axed from some. How adult four thirty in the morning saying might tree last night come to my super bowl party Hardest Nice Sir. How Red Red Red Yellow or purple? I don't either. This girl knows that he is with me and noman she. She said bring friends like she wants to get gang. Banged by inviting femininity. Exactly interest fucking. You can't trust anybody. How important for males to have female friends female friends is one thing a random Ho? You don't need to be appearing in anybody's dreams and I'm mad at you for that by the way that should have been actually happy beat him and other people that means I'm cemented myself. I've dreamed about people before it dreamt. And you know you don't have to broadcast that. Hell every sensual undertone undertone to your in this intimate like you were in Ugly Man David You know anytime I get filled with little confidence. You have to rip it away confidence. I tell you every day but it's it's like like I said all the time you eat prime rib every day. Eventually you're out of a crime. How dare you? Oh how fun. It's nice to know that other people are thinking about me. Yeah you know what that's when someone smiles at you or holds the door for you not some Ho being like dream come to my apartment flake. Are you kidding. Me Worth thirty in the morning to like. It was still dark early in the morning. It's still dark. And she woke up and she just yeah message. Well you know I'm I'm definitely offending someone who's dreamy. How that wants to send a message just know? It's getting filtered through his secretary which is me I want you looking at my phone anymore. I would I would fess up to it if that is what I was doing. But you know that I wasn't because I was right there with you. And your a LURKER I. The there's nothing wrong with the lurk. Let me open your phone right now. The phone all the time and I'll see a a lot of nasty text message way. Imagine some guy and play that game searches name in your phone not on this podcast creep creep John Corner telling the creepy if there's nothing to hide short between us as a couple. What is there to hide about? That's what I'd I'd like to know that. His locked lake home screen just coming up at four thirty in the morning. This is like not now. Oh you have the text message thing or says message mine says a message on a very very interesting message anymore. You changed little. I did because you're lurk in two months. The text message the John. But that's not because the Dave. I just don't want anyone to ever see my texts. If they're on my phone I hear you. I don't know why anyone would honestly I. You should have it like just to say tax message which everybody should of change in my path for to change your face. Oh I guess I can't do that now now that kind of gets you Yeah because you could probably open during their sleep giving you. Can you did trait way. That's interest that's a loophole. Loophole for twins. True you gotta Pun even with your glasses on even with your by the thing. I don't have these newer phones. Swipe up a little bit That's scary free your peak and a little bit on the Mike. I think while you just open Dave's phone with your face right. Any of you can actually print it three faiths of anyone in open any little figurines creamed should high of someone's face super detailed getting into her. What's his phone? That's a good idea. I have many ideas about the flipping. Flipper I guessing send Send my cutler around the horn. Yeah I thought it was the cobbler. Cobbler yes yes the Cobbler Mr and Mrs Kotler to U. Ask Valentine's Day sales coming up so John Bonnet Jeff what do you think about that. I think it's a pretty fun idea. What if what if you you added a little IOT Internet of things to the techie nil? Those like bracelets fight you squeeze your significant other gets a little little little. Buzz is on there. You know it's the same thing but they do it with that dildos. A radio rock someone from a different time zone. You're talking about the egg. Of course all the egg I think about the egg uh-huh Gusting Adam and eve is a huge sponsor of art. They're coming back heavy in February. We call that heavy February. I think we have a we have multiple Adam and eve. ADS coming through It's a big time of year. We yard at by someone circe Murli Baby. So for the freelancing red saying for the cobbler you know. If you're getting coddled than the other person can feel the coddle on the other side you know you bring it on your business trip. And then you're Burnett for the big spoon and she feels the little spoon being the little spoon when she has her. You're on a business. Let's chirpiness like three in the morning. Woken up by dump wife like buzzing the funding thing low or you can reach around or whatever all right Jeff. Are you know era crude rude. Dude I'm in as a customer and investor. I liked a lot thank you jeff and I'll try it. If you have like a prototype. Oh type in the house from like working on it but like in terms of me putting my money behind it. I'm just not passionate about. I mean the original prototype is sort of just a two by I four that I can thuggery comfortable. I didn't bring it into the bed next time and see how it feels duct taping. Strap it to you. I really eat is one of those Those like Triangle sort of a sex cushions up. They had a The slope slope her around the hips up the hips up. So I think that is something that I could an-any wants to throw Dozer you'd have to like bend. Dover you'd go side side on it. Yeah we'll see at the lung pillow though. I just want a harder surface ray. Right so you there you have it. That's the that's the neither cod alerted to you or it's just a kind of one size fits non scenario. They were having fun. Make sure to tell your friends about this podcast. Because he's Adam and Eve Aj are GonNa send you come and come into the show. Oh let's do a live show. We have to talk about that right. Yes we will talk about that in due time now. It doesn't always have to be Alamein with people don't over US up enough for Hollmann dope but may is coming up as it's coming up really though the quickly enough enough but you got to prepare for these things. Wouldn't it be nice to perhaps do a live show. Let's say in like March in Brooklyn for her very good very good Dave. We'll talk to Dylan. Maybe he could. He could start looking things for us. Does he do that okay we. Why can't we do it ourselves? I can't we ask someone else to work with us to do it into that. I think we should do it. Why not I think we should be K.? PHILLY PITTSBURGH CLEVELAND. Do we have an offense but even if we just do like a show it's like fifty people it could be nice. Someone brings a friend then. The friend tells their Mama Tom Malay- get one. Get One mobs that our show off your feet on your your hot in growth. The next stuff in the pants rolled up so much jeff Because it's look like a newsy. Well it doesn't look that that way when you're standing melon. They ride up. You know when you're sitting down you're not seeing skin when I stand no senior hairy old man legs find find their normal length. They are normal. And it's actually okay not to be normal next up in our pig pen. He's my abnormal twin brother He's cool to the quarter as any Yoi says the second best ideas on the pocket behind on mine would be third. Well we we. We alternate jazz He's my little big brother and he's got a big car and a small P.. Me Jeff the chef Rosenberg it to you guys. Let me people to pose a question stale ebay founded on Ebay with founded on one. One man's trash is another man's treasure the tag sale yard sale. Yeah bringing the yard sale to the Internet Creighton with third of of course. But what if I were to tell you they were better way to shop for things that a curated craigslist of sorts. You know where people were getting rid of all of their stuff. The state's GonNa State sale exactly like an estate sale. Dave so as you know I've been active on the state sale site fan. And you know I've I've the I've purchased story or not. We did not tell that story. I don't think you guys going to Whitestone. No the White No. I don't think we talked about any of them. Because we've gone on Dave you've got two or three With me to have you gone without me. I don't want to know I did not go to end up just helping the people move out talk about. Nellie couch like you paid to move. That smelly couch one dollar fucking well. There's a there's other stuff like that. That was a mistake on my. We're literally paying to move people from there. What we do here is is that was Oversight early on but it is you know a learning experience Dave. So now I'm finding better couches Founding not cheaper couches but Slightly more expensive expensive with a a good flip value. So I'm doing couches. We do on. Antiques is well we we do. Have you ever done successfully. What do you mean something? Have you ever bought something and flipped it successfully. Currently we're at a known but they were early on in this flip game you know People Watch these house hundred flip shows you know anyone can do it just takes time dedication and the right taste and I think I have a couple of those things things and we're looking to build out the team if David is obviously on board. Now here's not most of most of the buys out of blind loyalty not to you and by the way how's that abusing because you always gonna say yes if you ask them saying yes it will you tell me Geoffrey. You don't always we say yes when we ask you to do. Do you recall being quest moving. I have yeah. That's your one favor that you're always going to drag amount of badgering bad or another example of something that I haven't had done a favor. Wise a fever wise. No you've done this fever wise. You didn't come to my brothers show that time. I'm you said you were going to that time burning in the bedroom no about this. Thanks for so long ago that you remember anymore but we are looking at your TV. That's looked like pretty. Well that's tell them. What else do you want me to mop the floor? Do you leave pretty soon after the podcast. I'm a busy man with things to buy online and of course we're talking couches. We're talking antiquities. We're talking you know. Statues were talking maps books. Anything yeah you'd really want a coke rack may be an I'm of as What are you looking for jewelry bag? We have that as well you out Gucci. We got Gucci Fendi. We don't fuck with Fendi new. Fendi why would you have because I get Fendi now. You don't because you would have to buy these things. I say it would be hard online car cute little Martian glasses this is not how do I do okay. So now we're talking right but where did you get them from them for my state sales. I'm talking Whitestone what I'm talking Jersey City. I'm in hoboken talk. It's luck though. What any money and you buy these estate sales but it's like it's like storage wars? It's like you're just buying like something you don't buy the whole thing up. On the whole estate I get a pick through what I want out. I didn't know didn't you buy storage unit no not yet anyway storage unit because If if you'RE GONNA ask questions you would ask. Hey where are you storing stuff right. Asking the ideas were flipping estate sale stuff. Money Making Idea Fainter Chuck talked about buying baseball cards online. Make Seventy eight hundred dollars a week on really huge part of the team do need people to help me move the sofas sectionals uh-huh and he seemed to enjoy that type of work. I don't think I did actually Impairs skeletal infrastructure. Well that's because he's not not active volcano to get him active. He should be doing this stuff carrying crates carrying the the rope that I buy you know. What else do we get? I got a planter enter. I got a kaleidoscope a Beautiful Antique Kaleidoscope for you know twenty seven dollars twenty-seven only what that cost twenty seven hundred. The could get sixty or seventy that from the haunted market. Someone that's in the market for haunted. And I I set my own page. It's pretty much like what is it. It's it's called Jane de Jeff Dave's estate sales uh-huh if you're interested in Fendi. I thought that you is this. Your is this your real plan. I've been doing it and I think people would would like to see you know a scheme in action you know using ours. hardwork dedication am stooping to so I find stuff on the street a clean it up. I've refurbish it a little bit. I'll give it a little upholstery. A little little gone if it's covered in something that we need gone. It's such an you know what we do is we referred we re Fab. We reform welcome to the future So I'm worried about the margin in terms of the U.. Haul trucks storage unit on not getting storage unit actually I'm glad you brought that up again is as I do laundry in your building. I take a wrong exit right. This buildings got a lot of empty space in it. That is storage for people in this building. Now what about the. What about downstairs downstairs? You have a a piece of property that's been on the market. You know the the commercial spot you know the store from you ever go down there. Rooms and rooms and rooms down their rooms. No one's checking on you don't know that padlock on it. The coughing trespassing in the commercial space in our building. Why of other places? This is distorted as well. Second Question. Okay so your business plan just to be clear is that you're going to store your extra garbage from these things in the commercial space in our building. That happens to be empty right now. And so we keep their head come from. Where's your money? Where do your funds come from like that? You buy all the stuff with give myself an allowance and I choose not to go over that okay and then once we get money from that lot then we put we funnel it back into the system. How do you choose what you buy so that you make sure you can have what I go for the sunglasses people really like to go for the watches? Phases had high mark afraid freight were not going strictly furniture because I need a fulltime helper to help me carry stuff. Lots of Nice clothes and sunglasses and shit. These estate sales there can be some vintage clothes. Dan Purses and sunglasses. And I say hinting at a little a little spike in your interest here thinking it could be called ago. I'm imagining like a beautiful old mansion. Mentioned there's a big weeping willow in the front and lying. I'm walking up to the house and like they're just basically like anything you see like just You can have basically and I give them like a dollar and I get like sale. This is a bidding war online. Okay that would probably so you have to really be like like a gambler. Yes and that's how you SORTA got stuck with the one dollar couch right as have I got stuck with one. Yeah thank you thought someone would bid at leaf if two dollars on the couch right now. How and it won't happen again because I didn't take a good enough look at the photos and I saw? It was quite disgusted. Upon arrival arrival. We were fooled. So so you're bidding on stuff that you don't necessarily want all the time well Dave again in one of the earlier stages is Got Two weeks ago. I got a little trigger. Happy no now I kind of look look up things you know I see what their market value and then I worked from there. David I love to do the street fines which are free right and I I do worry about flip a house like. Why don't you like we like going for my taste? that sense to Colorado get a house on auction shitty own money but he borrow some some money. Get a house for like. I don't know like we've got a house in an auction for like what like fifty thousand dollars or something. I don't know maybe then you you work gone over time you years you and Markey can come sometimes coming up to the house. You're working to pay taxes on that. You sell it for like three hundred thousand dollars. We're talking about how to fix a home dead. You're always building and painting in doing all this shit. Maybe so. Where do you sell this stuff after you buy obviously not on the auction site on a more no we have listing And then you know we do bids and we do outright purchases similar to Ebay but we also have a showroom believe it or not. It's in your building I do. Is I set up little rooms kind of like a Kia and you walk through and you can see a different setups out. We do. Yeah we need to our mid century modern room we do the bedroom. We do the kids room and he can just kind of pick and choose as you please live. What would you say the most prized the item? You've picked up in your short time doing that. We do a lot of gold coins. People are happy about those cases. Obviously you no Personally blown is what they go under the jewels Defenders Obviously Joe and the drool do trunks people like like trunks law We do paintings we do a lot of paintings. We do a lot of a lot of mid century modern winter next pickup We're looking at them now. So I haven't won anything today or yesterday or tomorrow but we have a closing the day after that. We're looking thanks for joining some. Maybe some power tools Dave Maybe a random box of kraft goods who knows interesting and are you A statue maybe and I and I thought we were into the minimalisation Portion of our lives where we keep keep it simple stupid right but you still want to express express yourself without you live you know right right So you're turning trash into well. Let me finish when I was GONNA say right right. You're turning trash into Shinier trash very good David. But I like that. You're into this. It's definitely a fun. Little Hobby Hobby. Got Yourself into and they say you should turn your hobbies into careers. Okay Are you with me because I need to hand on this moving project those eight on both themselves. Well let's stick stay away from the furniture. Perhaps the right. What about the? I'm kind of into armoires right now. They have high markup rate and heavy go three or four five hundred pound probably walnuts. Nice I don't know if my back and take that kind of scrutiny Which is why EH? Hire someone off. you know task grab it. Maybe yeah for sure Jeff I'm in as a customer Far As an investor I need I need to see your books right and those are open to the to the public. Obviously in you know I mentioned the name but you know you're obviously not aboard yet so we are. Now you know Deon Jay Jay Jay's trash premium interior solutions oh just the name Yeah Piss for sure exactly man. That's wonderful honor. What do you think about about Jeff's pissed company solutions by like busy reading your pitch to pay pitch girling going on instagram? She's looking at Johnny. Depp severed things. I am a pirate ticket. I I'm okay okay with this idea I I want you to have success. I want you to find success in your flipping. I know it's your passion and I know it's your dream and if this is if if this is the way that we're GonNa do it then. Let's their neuro positive when he means the new positive on. I've always been positive. I'm just pointing out now. Hangs stay positive on. We all like when you're happy. I I always. I'm happy next up in the pig and she's a sad sath quit. She's Bonna what do you have I today. Well allow me to pose a question please. Do what's the worst part about sports playing them or watching them watching them watching them. I think there's a overabundance of ads in a safer not invested in the players sport. You don't care and sometimes sometimes they're blowouts. which can you know if it's your fits your team? I suppose it's fun but you know a a super bowl that's Forty seven isn't fun to one exactly so all these sports lately have really been. I'm getting me thinking about you. Know we all gather together to watch these sport games like it's the modern day coliseum But you no. It's really like sports. There's so many things can go wrong. You know the people get hurt. People are sitting out on the sidelines. For Vermont's your favorite players which is team all. You never know what's going to happen. Your favorite team loses over and over again. There were the drama moods though. Isn't that the excitement. Well not really That's where my Proposal comes in My proposal is that sports should be casted and acted out lake a ballet more like like or light in professional national wrestling They should be choreographed. This the star should be like we should know more about their lives and they're like personal lake Stories and they should be like it should they should be written. They should be scripted so they could be even more interesting. What about the rigged? Yeah they should be rigged but they should be choreographed and scripted. Lend you lose the whole bettering industry good and on top of it. These people well that train their whole lives to you know win at something now. It's being decided by some Ju writer. It's almost kind of like globetrotters a little bit. Maybe Yeah Harlem globetrotters indeed. No it's like a play right so everything's choreographed so it's like yeah we are the outcome com. WWe everything query graph. They like figure it out. That's the ADS. It is real. You're into their. They're not finished result. Yeah they know the finisher Zoll and then they improvise their way to that result and not right. I don't think you can in choreographing a whole football game seemed super hard while they do they choreograph entire ballet. But they're doing a eh every Sunday they're going to have to learn and that's why they should still make a lot of money they should stake. It's still something they have to be physically fit for your still in Athle- Fli scripted. That could be fleshed out and so is it so the Games are closer. This is so that the games run run on time. This is so away from me. There's less injury but you can injure yourself Being a ballerina. Can you not right. And there's less injuries. Are Men called ballerinas tours. Okay I think Johnson interesting. Do we have a name for this concept the concept okay for all the sports. You're taking your football your basketball your baseball your soccer. Yeah Oliver the court for Yeah I think it deserves its own league right like the XFL like the ballerinas you can call it. It's not ballet. Okay they're not doing ballet it's just like they're doing their sport but it's it's choreographed and scripted. Men There's drama and intrigue Vojka Soap Opera. Yeah they're more interesting than what would happen when you run a play. That's almost like a choreography though. Is it not I guess but you don't but anything thing can happen. This is a controlled. Outcome is important of fun that anything can happen. maybe for some but like I understand that you want ought to be contrary and this is part of that Jeff but just suspend your disbelief for a moment and imagine a world. You could go to the perfect basketball very it's going to be three pointers going to be donkeys. There's GonNa be a fight. They're going to be pulling the jerseys. There's going to be someone screaming. There's going to be like if someone runs on the court. There's going to be all the greater things. So you're sort of combining the circus world with sports. Yes exactly David. We went to the circus just the other week yeah amazing these Trapeze artist especially Apple Apple Circus in at Times Square that in Columbus Circle Center elephants. Now they don't horses cats at add house cats. They do tricks tricks with the yarn essentially ladders and south or the high flying within. Yeah they're not going to high fuel efficient. Do the elephant doesn't go to the circus anymore. I'm just saying even when they did. What's the appeal of the elephant? Stand on his mind learning con- you know now but you know people like to see these are really doing tricks on a time lag for sure it does but upload peanuts and the crowd maybe Oh seen the Hugh Jackman movie movie Mr Showman. Show two the peanuts in the crowd. We'll probably peanuts and the elephants nose mouth isn't there are no no that's good. I guess they don't they. Don't use that for for anything. Drink water through there now. They spray I think that they can just smell. Look data do they drink it directly through their nose like Straw can drink through. Aren't knows it just doesn't feel good right. It's true I mean yeah I mean you probably also drink through like your your ears. It's not connected to the for sure for sure. OUGHTA start out pitching this exactly the right way like maybe I should have expressed op at the top. All about how it really will make each game agree Game right right right and I get that Do you get it I think people you know boring. They can get boring. People get hurt. The Wave Football Games. You have three different acts now. You know the hair. That's why we usually leave it up to the referees. To you know keep it close. Different people people can win Atlanta but that's rigging game which is illegal but this is essentially Reagan. The game right. I guess also maybe you could have both. Maybe there's still all the real sports just the way they are then. Maybe if you'd like this is something that's even better like. This is how you bring your husband to the theater. This is how you combine. This is how you bring anyone like your wife to the football game because suddenly a great football game the football game you have choreographed. They hit a fifty yard field goal. And that's hard and they don't make it Also vote will mean to half court shot. It's tied to a string or like there's some kind of good flash here like that. What's it called it's like projection map it's a magnet and it has to fly into the magnetized the interesting? I think it's an original idea original so all clap it out for that I want your tickets costing to this Forty seven dollars forty seven interesting in that knows as well as front row. It's all a stadium. It's yeah it's sort of how Louis C. K.. Makes every ticket the same price for he was draw right. Dave you may on people making a comeback. Now I know you know who else is making a comeback Adam and Eve so let's listen to that the ad percent sure we have knees thinking it's too. I'm in a custom. I think it's a very fun idea. And as a investor Esther I think it would be fun to see. I like a good show As you know I'm going to the dog show on Saturday you know. There's a certain amount of choreography there. So I respect respect that I respect the ballet and I respect the arts. I'm in I think this is a great way to allow those Dancers and performers to you know have more than just Broadway Edwin off Broadway show. They're now they're very athletic. People as Intel from Netflix. Show Chair and a lot of times. They don't have anything to do you after If you've been watching of course I watched that one fall with brutally honest yes and you can get hurt so it's still exciting. To Watch let fall was Bertel. I hadn't seen in 'cause you leave the room in your on your phone all the time and expect to utilize chair as much as he died in the one that showed you chair. No I brought cheer to the apartment and I'm bringing the chair to the bed. We'll be right back after these messages. Oh Yeah Ah preached up is the best but free stuff that will ignite your Valentine's Day even better check this out when you go. Adam and Eve dot com and select almost any one item. You'll get. How much do you think of failure? And that's amazing mazing by itself. But here's where they load on the free stuff when you enter our exclusive code at checkout not only do you get in the one item also get ten tantalizing free items. I for your viewing pleasure. fixers interest free next of Free Ministry back that includes an item for him a special toy for her. It's something we know you'll both enjoy plus free shipping. Wow that's a lot of free. Valentines stuff so overtime over time DOT COM and be sure use offer code tweens again. That's tea as twins because without it there. Will we know free valentines stuff. That's twins Adam and Eve dot com Valentine's Day pressured. What an easy gift to give due you it to it uh-huh with back Melbourne? It really the catch which folks catch the days this segment of the show where we went to see the schemers and dreamers out Out there in the real world. Who are you know? Counting those fat cats into those fat stacks all right this article titled None Ocean's eleven but Muskogee eight folks of lives at the Casino for five point two million dollars right and they steal it. The scam works. Jeff the one of the four would act as a if a machine needed service giving a you know someone an excuse Houston open it and basically to the husbands were video technicians and were familiar with electronic gaming machines. Right right so one of these. Husbands wit would put a wire to a poor on the machines motherboard which had a coin counting device all right then. The perpetrator tator would attach the other end of the wire to a metal surface inside that machine causing it to generate and record false queen amount totaling thousands of dollars right one of the four would then Caused the machine to generate false credit vouchers for coin in amount and and would present the vouchers to the MUSKOKA gaming in exchange for cash. Sounds like a great graft and so the husbands would do this. And then the wife launder the money move the cash around in a shell game. Well how much did you say. At the beginning. Five point two million five point point two million dollars there last This lasted from two thousand and eleven. Two uh-huh thousand greedy get greedy two years then he get out now are gone the next Griffin. He's a great sure is this but they have people on the inside that we're guy right to the husbands. Were the more the machine guy. That's a fact you gotTa Kill Machine Guy After Yeah I knew true clapping ed how are you doing you know five to seven. Nothing victimless crime. Really you never know. Three financial crime is still in from the. You know the commission you know the Gambling Commission for example. You're not stealing for like Scotts Robin Robin Hood if you will well. They're not giving at twenty one. They're giving it back in the economy. They're buying pizza man. That's very true Now it's time for my very favorite part of the show. It's time for the nation to rag. This is the same in the show where we take emails and voicemails from the nation out. There you can email males had ideas at twenty invasion dot Biz. You can call the phone number one six four six ninety six ten ninety two you. Of course add the discord. There you get on there you know. Talk to the people talk to the family. Talk to the nation An instagram facebook twitter as well. We love to hear hi Dea They're usually on par with ours. Believe it or not So let's let's hear one of these suckers Yeah let her rip let her hip. Hello hello again boys and girl. It's your boy Joel from Los Angeles called in a couple of months ago idea that you guys aptly named glimmer it was the after text you notifications in the morning so he said that you don't feel quite so alone pivoted into a messaging APP. That pays it forward Where you message someone in another country who waking up in the zone ASCII Bravo and thank you so much I'm coming at you with a scheme. I guarantee people come up with but I thought maybe I pitch. Anyway I'm here in Concepcion abseiling Chile. Okay Down South and I just walked over to a mall to an ancient ham or they call us year Achebe. Em Gene and I was trying on pants and I just thought how easy it would be to take a pair of pants that you bought him a place in H. M. or J. Crew. Well That you've worn for a couple months. They've gotten a little worn in. Just Walk Right back to the store. Grab a pair of those passing attack. Pass go into the changing room. Try them on and just walk out with the new pants And we'd be old Tan now. I know what you're thinking You got a little tag on on there that explodes with a BP store. That's still going to happen to you. And you're just going to have to run back. You can probably buy those guns that take off the tax code awesome state sale the other week so I'll be on my website when we get up and running. That's Genius Jeff. I love the idea of putting those old pants back on the rack. Vintage rand now You know because you really only get a you know a good couple weeks Friday off the size or downsize and you. Can you know switch from a size ten to donator ten to twelve you know as you see fit interesting Especially if you gain weight you lose weight you know what I'm saying. You know store. The show must have a return policy if you gain five pounds or lose five pounds within six weeks. Oh they'll exchange. I like that a lot. It sounds like A. It's almost like how how Domino's drop your pie. Get a new one for free right. I love it. Fantastic idea. Joel Keep calling in with those idea. Yeah that's a glimmer. Glimmer glimmer was great. We are repeat You know we've pitched almost two two hundred forty ideas and you realize once you start thinking about it and then you get in the flow open up that creativity so the you know this podcast can almost be a Creative outlet for all of you out there to hundreds of thousands of fans out there that all have their million dollar idea. And here's a great place. ACIS SORTA workshop folks. Our next mission comes in from Toronto. We Love Toronto. So let's give it a listen. Howdy folks no? I'm from Toronto. Here I'm GonNa keep this one simple funerals but before you're dead Zyppah before you're about to die. Ceremony takes place and you can make sure that nobody you dislike showed up awesome. Thank you you can tell him to fuck off one more time. It's good right. I love you guys. Who are still my favorite podcasts? By that that is wonderful and it's great Do not invite two years Jake and Amir. I don't want them fucking Arabian me. alone I don't want them ribbon MIA my funeral. They would've ula well you know. They're known for Ribbon Right. They don't review. Jake is like your best friend. But he gives me the L.. tvos person we know. Jesus do you agree with that is the kind of guy you know. News a sweet pete. That's for sure Jeffrey. And on and what about you who you your funeral most people I just well. I don't want I'm not having a funeral. I don't want to be seen as dead. I want maybe how a party with lots of photos of Oh do I want to be at the party. This idea. Yeah I would think to be like You know faked that in the casket so you can hear what people are saying about what he's saying right are you want you want to trick them into saying mean stuff at your funeral. They're gonNA say mean stuff in front of you know. Yeah Yeah. People won't come the whole room. I'm sure people in back are saying you know although I guess you really. What about people? That don't know they're going to die right right well. In that case I think it has to be kind of a planned thing. You know. It's coming for months. I would do it you know not the day before you at six months before. That's actually like what my pretorious various idea is. It's like you turn fifty. You have a massive like celebration for Your Life Your what Torres Right of course for my age system. Yes yes yes. So maybe when you're fifty. That's the should've brought up on the if I were you you brought up. The cracker. Froze thought the quaker a good example. Eh when a patient now so I think you you know you spread your spread your wings. Yeah Yeah I could have said a lot of things better. I guess I thought it was very good if someone was saying no I thought it was fantastic. Li- it's one of their most highest viewed episodes. I believe most listened to episode. Ever ever facet is the middle shorts. What have you well? Hey clapped-out idea. I want to have both. I don't want him like trying to like network here. You Buddy. Yeah that was fantastic. Is What a wonderful episode. Anything else out there for you guys to say I guess we should Didn't we do like the one. Cool the thing or what. We're learning this. Week is the new thing now. He'll eat never agreed to. What are you? What are you learning about learning how to do my exercises again for on my back? I kind of did a little bit. Moving some of your flipping couches. That'll happen. That will happen. You know I'm really learning the the key to a good exercises exercises to do it before you get hurt right preventative to you. Know being in shape if you're exercising regularly fair enough I know well. What did you learn this week? Miss Smarty pants nothing only know it all. Of course. That's a great screen name for submitter. Named Noah. Remember Smarter Child. Yes I do. Remember her child last time you thought about him. probably L. E. A decade ago. Whose child what do you mean whose child that's the AM thing? Hey I got you talk. They come up with like it would talk to you. It's great. I've responded Alexa a better. I downloaded I haven't tried it yet. Therapy APP THAT'S I. I can talk to. What do you pay for that is free? And what's the name of it. I'll tell you after the show down plug that well. No I WANNA plug it. No that sounds irresponsible. Not Responsible I can't go to a real therapist if you're struggling Dave's fucking robot APP. Make Michael Phelps getting back saying Bella. Oh No it's called EUCHRE. Why Wii P. E. R. I O. U. P. R.? That's an awful name. Sounds like a yogurt. That's that seems so like we need like a personal touch when it comes motions and how you feel and like realize you're fucking robot tell you exploit human uh-huh program humans or program in themselves. Maybe even therapist so devoid of like everything. That's wrong with our society GONNA try it out. Connect you're not wrong. I'll try it out and report back to the nation. Alright Jeff. What did you learn this week? Dave as you know I'm taking that module I'm on week four learning how to learn about learning. I know about chunking I know about you know the words associated out product for process. I know about the tailored to learn. Of course I think we all need to learn how to learn. Well there's a way to do it and there's a way to not do it. You know you gotTa sometimes you need a little. It'll help over that. Mental hurdle talk took time. It took time and still learning. We're we're all still learning. You know you don't have to be in college or graduate school alert to tell to love to learn. We'll be coming out with our own e book soon and you know look forward to that. It's it'll be you know under ten dollars interesting. I would love to write thirty book with you David. let's get started on it. Let's make twenty twenty year where we get her down as always stay. Stay Scheming and stay dream and Donna Show Park Sawday when patients I think that was a Hickam podcast.

Jeff Dave David Jeff Mr Mr Mrs Spoon Adam Johnny Depp Dylan Garbo Jessica Simpson ebay Jeff Rosen football John Mayer twitter Valentine producer Anne Hathaway
Christmas Morning Explosion Rocks Downtown Nashville

TIME's Top Stories

04:33 min | 6 months ago

Christmas Morning Explosion Rocks Downtown Nashville

"Brought to you by audible. Christmas morning explosion rocks downtown nashville by kimberly chrissy and thalia beatty for the associated. Press in nashville tennessee. An explosion shook the largely deserted streets downtown nashville early. Christmas morning shattering windows damaging buildings and wounding three people authorities said. They believed the blast was intentional. The fbi is leading the investigation. Metro nashville police. Department spokesman don. Aaron said police responded to a call of shots fired just before six. Am but found no immediate signs of a shooting. Although officers noticed a suspicious vehicle and called for a hazardous unit while they waited the vehicle exploded. Aaron said three people were taken to area hospitals for treatment. Although none were in critical condition he said some people were taken to the department's central precinct for questioning but declined to give more details. The fbi will be taking the lead in the investigation said spokesman joel cisco vich federal investigators from the bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms and explosives. Were also on the scene. The fbi is the primary law enforcement agency responsible for investigating federal crimes such as explosives violations and acts of terrorism at noon police. Dogs continued to search cars and buildings in the nearby area of philadelphia man. Staying in a nearby hotel said that when he heard the blast he knew it wasn't a harmless noise. It was a very loud explosion. Said joseph for fara. We tried to rationalize it that it was an earthquake or something but it was obvious. It wasn't an earthquake. He said he traveled to tennessee with his family on christmas. Because the state has looser covid nineteen restrictions than philadelphia before a went outside to look at the damage but police barricades had already been put in place. Black smoke and flames were seen early friday billowing from the area which is packed with bars restaurants and other retail establishments and is known as the heart of downtown nashville tourists. Seeing building shook in the immediate area and beyond after a loud boom was heard. Buck mccoy who lives near the area posted videos on facebook that show water pouring down the ceiling of his home. Alarms blare in the background and cries of people in great distress. Ringing in the background of fire is visible in the street. Outside mccoy says he heard gunfire fifteen minutes before the explosion rocked. his building. mccoy said the windows of his home were entirely blown out all my windows. Every single one of them got blown into the next room. If i've been standing there have been horrible. He said it felt like a bomb. It was that big. He told the associated press. There were about four cars on fire. I don't know if it was so hot. They just caught on fire and the trees were all blown apart. He said president. Donald trump has been briefed according to white house. Spokesperson judd deer. Who said that trump who spending the holidays in florida will continue to receive regular rates. The us justice department said acting attorney. General jeff rosen was also briefed and directed all department. Resources be made available to help with the investigation. Tennessee governor bill lee said on twitter that the state would provide the resources necessary quote to determine what happened and who was responsible. Please join at maria lee. Tnn me in praying for those who were injured and we thank all of our first responders who acted so quickly this morning. nashville mayor. Jon cooper said the city was lucky that the number of injuries was limited associated. Press writer eric. Tucker in washington contributed baby reported from new york. This holiday season the new audible plus catalogue. Has everything you need all in one place stream or download thousands of select audible originals audiobooks and podcasts. All you want no limit. This election keeps growing. So you'll always be able to find favourite. Listen or try. Something new like our audibles leaf collection to help you drift off visit audible dot com and for a limited time you can enjoy an audible plus membership for just four ninety five a month for the first six months. Happy holiday listening.

nashville fbi kimberly chrissy thalia beatty joel cisco bureau of alcohol tobacco fire Aaron tennessee earthquake Buck mccoy philadelphia mccoy fara don judd deer us justice department jeff rosen joseph maria lee the associated press
Senators Flake and Coons: The Future of the Senate and the Supreme Court

We The People

43:21 min | 2 years ago

Senators Flake and Coons: The Future of the Senate and the Supreme Court

"I'm Lana over in house counsel at the national constitution center and welcome to the people. A weekly show of constitutional debate. The national constitution center is a nonpartisan nonprofit chartered by congress to increase awareness and understanding of the constitution among the American people. This week, we bring you a special episode of the people who drink Senator Jeff flake and Chris coons in conversation with host, Jeff Rosen recorded live this week at the Atlantic festival in Washington DC. The senators discussed their important role in the cavenaugh confirmation hearings including their last minute agreement to pause the nomination to allow for an investigation of current locations against capital. They also share their hopes and fears future of the Senate and the supreme court and how political tribals today for legitimacy of these American institutions. Here's Bob Cohn president of the Atlantic to get started. Thank you, Jeffrey, Alex. And Jeff, we looked to conclude the day with article one that the constitution, the congress. So we joined a two man at the center of our national conversation right now, both members of the Senate Judiciary committee and together they're the architects of a process that has playing out right now in real time they broke away through a leadership meeting to be with us today, and we're grateful to have them. Please welcome. Jeff, flake Republican, Verizon, a-. And crews. And Chris coons never got Delaware. They're here with Jeff Rosen. Senators and flake. We invited you to this event about a month ago. Thank you so much for precipitating, a constitutional crisis to justify our conversation this morning for precipitating and of winning it. And we are here to discuss gravely serious questions and that is the future of the Senate as an institution, and that is the future of the supreme court as an institution and how as you so eloquently said, Senator flake to prevent the country from tearing itself apart at a time when the legitimacy of both of those institutions is under siege, I'm required though by my editor, Jeff, Goldberg Senator just ask them easy question just to start us off. So this is from Goldberg. The question is, what is the state of play today? And what would it take for the FBI investigation to reveal to get you to consider voting against up. Chris. No, no. It almost works. State of play today is the investigations ongoing. The interviewed, I four that we're named and have branched off from there my understanding and are interviewing additional individuals and as it should be, and I hope that they follow leads that come from those first interviews, the what the agreement that we struck, the compromise that we struck that we'd have something that was limited by time as Chris outlined it in the speech. Before we, we went outside to one week and then we would limit the scope, the scope being limited to to current credible allegations. We didn't want to throw something open for allegations to come out like the Rhode Island boat thing that was out and then retracted or or some of the more outlandish ones out there. And we checked with DOJ. They assured us that this was in within what the timeframe that they can do it. We both hope and have been pushing the White House to to make sure it's Folsom investigation, and it's not unduly limited, and I hope they're doing it to find fact. We have not seen any of the reporting yet. We were told that might come back or in real time. And we might have some decisions to make in terms of where they go. My hope is that they as a interview these individuals than immediately follow up on other leads at they might they might have. So we don't know exactly where it is in terms of what it will take. I. I just hope that we find fact, and I have an open mind just like I had in the hearings and we'll see what they come back with. Don't want to prejudge it. Thank you for that. Chris. Some Democrats have taken the position that regardless of what emerges from the investigation, the nominees temperamental conduct in the hearings is disqualifying could anything from the investigation make you favor of capital. What I think is important. Jeffrey about the moment we have here is that as we ground towards the end of Friday's committee deliberations they got sharper and hotter and more partisan and more personal to the point where I think Senator flake correctly perceived that the nine hour hearing the day before which had presented to compelling forceful testimonies to completely opposite sets of facts and conclusions was really having an impact in a lasting way on the credibility of the institution of the Senate. And if the nomination was forced forward with no more further investigation would have a lasting impact on the credibility of the court. You asked a direct question. I'll give you a direct answer. I had announced a conclusion in my view about judge Cavanaugh based on his jurisprudence before we got to this point and and that's. Is not an opinion that is shared by many Republican colleagues, and I understand that. But what I think Senator flake did that was exceptional and praiseworthy is to say, we have to come closer in terms of our understanding of facts. Even though Democrats Republicans will almost certainly continue to have very different opinions about judge Cav enough from a policy perspective, Jeff's are real conservative. He would like not to speak for you. But my strong impression is he'd really like a conservative Justice on the supreme court. I'm not. I really don't want someone with judge Kavanagh's views of presidential power or views of substantive due process or likely jurisprudence around privacy and around the most recent significant decisions by Justice Kennedy. So I'm not going to change my views on judge Kavanagh's nomination based on that. But I think. Agreeing that we should have a week for a fulsome, but time and scope prescribed FBI investigation, we have to recognize raises the possibility of cavenaugh being cleared of summer all these allegations and the possibility of Dr Ford being corroborated in some or all of these investigations and gives us a week to hear each other and to show the American people that we took a week to hear allegations that we've gotten from everywhere. I've had the most amazing couple of days literally yesterday in the morning in Delaware, where I woke up and at a function late at night at a fire hall. I have had women, I've known for years or decades, come up to me and share with me the most riveting painful, incredible accounts of sexual assault, but they have never shared before that. They haven't shared with their husbands with their sons with their family with their community. And if nothing. Else was accomplished here. It was a strong signal by Senator flake that we are willing to take a week to hear each other and to take seriously the idea of improving the facts that we have. It may not change the outcome whatsoever, but it's a really significant statement that the cooling saucer of the Senate Ken still, though cracked perform its functions and that the response Jeff got from you. When we walked into the room, suggests there is a hunger in the country for this to be not exceptional, but ordinary for there to be reasonableness. Even when we have such sharply different policy views, I genuinely like and admire Senator flake and it's. Even though we opposite ways all the time. He'll come around. That's got to be typical, not exceptional. Let me just say how inspiring it is to hear both of you. Describe your desire to do exactly what Madison hoped senators listen to each other and have the country respect and a deliberate way, and thank you for giving us a week and saving the Senate, but Senator you care so deeply about the institution. What happens next, he will be corroborated or exonerated confirmed or not. The partisan passions will be strong and you're retiring, what will do you believe will be the future of the Senate after you're gone and will it? It's institutional Genesee preserved. Before I say that, let me just say, you know. You know, often hear politicians, save my friend over there before they try to get your eyes out. What I look at. Chris truly is my friend and we have traveled a lot. We both spent part of our miss spent youth in in Africa and Kenya, and east Africa and southern Africa. And we've traveled to the region that continent number of times, and we've been chased by elephants in Mozambique. We spent a very memorable four hours with one of the worst dictators, Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. We've, we've been through a lot and that the trust that you develop. Working with each other on issues like that wildlife preservation or is the Darrow or or other issues of that's that's how compromises are possible, and there's less and less of that going on. Memorably a few years ago wanted to prove the Republicans and Democrats get along. So Martin Heinrich and I- marooned ourselves on Pacific island for a week. Discovery Channel came along and filmed it called it rivals for viral. Just gave us a machete between us and that was not really. You can get it on Amazon for two ninety. Nine still. And I think it's still aired under between episodes of naked and afraid we were neither maybe frayed. But we got back and went on David Letterman. Kobe ran a clip of us and said that flake and Heinrich of prove once and for all Republicans and Democrats can get along if death is the only option. So. Unfortunately, that's about where we are, but but we do worry about the future of the Senate. It's always been the body that the rules of the Senate bring together. It's very seldom that one party has sixty votes, and so the the filibuster rules requires. And that's what I like about the Senate. I served twelve years in the house. I'd love the people's house, but the Senate requires and pushes you together. But lately there have been so many things simply drug us apart, and I don't know how we get back. The incentives are all the other way. There are. There's no currency for bipartisanship. If you are act bipartisan, it shows up in your opponent's campaign ads, and we've got to come to a point again where the failure to to compromise. The failure to reach across the aisle, particularly in the Senate is punished the ballot box rather than rewarded. And, and I don't know how we get there, but we, we need to. Chris, if you had to name the three top causes of this polarization, what would they be? What can do to fix it? And what are you going to do after Jeff link is gone. Miss him a lot. So top causes, we don't live together. So we travel back and forth to our home states every week for Delaware. I've traveled back and forth and my home state almost every day. So I'm an exception. But for most of the Senate listening to Joe Biden, my predecessor and asking him how he and John McCain, for example, built a working friendship over decades. Everyone would come in on Monday and stay till Friday and often move their families here and often leave here for long periods of time. So you'd get to know each other as parents at a baseball game or a lacrosse game rather than just as two dimensional cutouts fighting each other on cable. I second. Cartoon cutouts fighting each other on cable, the disaggregation of news and the. Frankly, steady degeneration caused by Twitter and the smashmouth PO politics of the time. Third, how we raise money there, there's no longer a role really for parties. There should be. It's not as strong as it used to be, but you can raise a million dollars in your first day as an opponent, whose won a primary by being more extreme than the other in twenty ten is you may recall Mike castle a well respected. Centrist Republican was my expected general election opponent, Christine O'Donnell beat him in a primary that had a tiny turn out very low participation. Sharia million bucks the next day on one cable TV show when you can fuel that. It accentuates the idea that you don't wanna live in Washington. You don't want to be part of the swamp. You can appeal to tighter and tighter segments of more and more motivated potential voters donors using social media in cable, and then what provides you the resources to win is less and less connected to having a broad base of support in your home state and last travel. There's three things that I think to answer the opposite. What are three things that I think have brought us together spending time in places where we aren't surrounded by forgive me the press lobbyists staff other folks working out in the gym going to I'm the coach or the weekly prayer breakfast that is broadly bipartisan but is only senators and travelling overseas. I think Jeff and I because we spent young when we were young men, we spent periods of our lives seeing the United States from another part of the world. We understand the ways in which when our democracy is dysfunction. And when the world sees bickering and frankly gridlock, there are competing models for how to organize society and on the continent of Africa, they are ascendant democracy matters and we have to act like we care about it and fight for it because at the end of the day, there's other ways to organize societies. And as the founder saw, if you aren't careful about the mischief faction, you will end up with a country that's no longer a model for democracy. Just listen to you. What do you think are the causes of this polarization and what would you do. He hit not traveling. I mean, when I got here to congress in the house, I read the book by MO udall the job of the congressman. He felt his desire to, you know, talk about what it was like in the sixties. And I remember reading that he said, we have in our Mareille or office budget account enough money to travel home three times a year travel back to three times a year. The rest of the time they were here. Their kids went to school together. They associated it was just different environment. I'm not suggesting we'll ever go back to that period, but that's that's part of the issue now, but I would just add, Chris says, it's not just the friendships that that come. It's just common decency and we saw a great example of it a few months ago. It was vote in the Senate Foreign Relations committee for Mike Pompeo. It was a tight vote and and. And it was it was mostly partisan Johnny ISAACs and was home delivering a eulogy for his his best friend, Johnny has some health issues, tough for him to, you know, in the middle of the night, travel back for one vote and have to pull everybody. And there used to be something in in congress in the Senate in particular called pairing, if one democrat had to be gone for some reason unavoidable and the Republican Republican friend would say, althought the other way, or I won't vote to not upset the ballots just as a measure of courtesy if it wasn't something that would change a huge outcome. But just as a as something courteous and. Johnny called to called Chris and asked if he would do that and and Chris did, and it was the first example of that. I've seen in years and years and years and it it. It moved Bob corker, tears are chairman because it's just so infrequent. And that's, you know, it's not as much friendships developed or whatever else, but it's just common decency that that you just these days. It's it's punished. I remember well, when Tim Caine was picked to be Hillary Clinton's running mate, Tim and I were elected together. We don't agree much, but we worked together on a number of things like an AM and whatnot, but we disagree a lot, but he's a decent carrying smart center and just as kind of playful, jab, I tweeted out now. I have to count the ways. I hate Tim Kaine. But I'm drawing a blank. He's a good man and a good friend. Congratulations. There was immediately unhinged fury from have brought tweets and emails and texts from my side of the, I'll say, how can you do that? And I was even at a Republican event, I kid you not the next day or two days later in Arizona, and somebody came up to me and he said, what's wrong with you? If you can't say anything bad, don't stopped. It was. It was like he, he was reversing the advice he got from his mother. I'm sure Dave is live, but that's just that is the result of shattered politics. That's where we are, and it's going to be tough to reverse because the incentives all push us that way. Chris, this inspiring moment were having like the false peace in the weeks after Sarajevo. Is this the last time that we'll see two senators discussing institution and if Cavanaugh is confirmed, will there be so much partisan bitterness despite this welcome respite that the Senate will never recover and flake is retiring. And will you ever be able to have these moments of bipartisan comedy again, what will the consequences for the country if the Senate explodes in this way, like my my wife and I sat down and had a heartfelt conversation. I'm not up this cycle, but you know, I'm up for reelection in two more years, and we had a conversation last week. I'll just be blunt is this really worth our time? And I don't mean that in a I mean, it's an incredible honor to serve in the Senate the United States, but I am enormously frustrated at how little progress we are making. Tackling huge issues right in front of us that affect average Americans and that affect our place in the world. And I'm facing a Senate without Senator flake without Jeff without Senator McCain, who was a great partner on foreign policy and security issues without Bob corker who was my most prolific legislative partner on foreign relations. These are three folks. I've worked very hard to build good relationships with who've been just tremendous partners. And I said to my wife, I don't know if this is a good investment, but I know this if the Senate doesn't work. Our constitution, our Republic, our nation doesn't work. I cannot abandon this post. If the people of Delaware will have me, I'll do it again and I wanna tell you. But my senior Senator faced a significant primary challenge from the left in a way I haven't seen in my state and longtime and the politics of my party are beginning to resemble the politics of the other party in ways that concern me. So to encouraging stories, if I can. Jeff, and I went to Senator McCain's funeral together in Phoenix. And when I got back, I made a point of going up to several relatively new senators who I overlapped with on a committee and area of interest and area of background, but where we don't really know each other that well and I said, bluntly, I wanna come get to know you. I wanna come to your state. I wanna come to your home. I welcome you to mind. I'd like to go to worship together. I'd like to give the speech together like to find a way legislate together because if there aren't people I can work with, there's really no point my being here. I second, the very kind anecdote. The Jeff shared about my doing some very small thing to accommodate my good friend, Johnny ISAACs, and which should be typical, not exceptional was occasioned by, and this is meant to be an encouraging story the day. My father died. February last year. I was here in Washington, and I got the news in the middle of the night, and I went to the floor and I looked about as miserable as I think ever looked and a Senator who I know through pro breakfast, very conservative, relatively new Senator from South Dakota. Mike rounds came across the floor, gave me a hug, look in the eye and said, whatever additional votes there are today, Chris, I will pair with you so that you can go be with your family that touched me deeply. He is going to continue as a Senator, Jeff has done amazing work on immigration and has really taken hard chances to accomplish immigration reform. Mike is someone who I hope to legislate with on a range of areas. He was part of that commonsense caucus trying to get to a solution on dreamers and border security. There are folks. I am hopeful I can work with. I doubt I will ever get chased by elephants in Mozambique. With them. I think those elephants have little professional courtesy. No, but I, you know, in answer to your question Jeff, I just wanted to say that you know. Are it's up to you. It's up to the citizens of this country to recognize that if you support an advocate for and fund candidates who are unyielding and personally vicious, that's the politics will get. This is a democracy. My father served in the first infantry for a reason. My brother in the second armored for a reason they weren't there because it was expected in a hobby, a great way to build their resumes were there because generations of Americans have stood up for democracy and continued to do so today in hard places around the world. And if we don't feel like we mean it and we're not committed to it, then there are competing models for the world that would be happy to take our place on the world stage and in history, and I am determined that will not happen. Senator you gave a very inspiring speech of for your determination to unite the country rather than tear it apart. Once you have left the Senate, what will you do to advance that crucially important mission for the future of our Republic? I know you're asking fuel run for president and Alaska that, but in addition, what will you do to shore up the institution of the Senate and to heal this wounded country for the future of America. Well. I'm not leaving the Senate because it's tired of the institution of pox on all your houses. This is a wonderful institution with wonderful people. And we've got to find a way to get together. So I, I simply couldn't run the kind of campaign I felt I needed to run in this environment and succeed. That's the bottom line. But. But I will stay involved. Certainly. I don't know what, what level or in what way? But this is important if I mean the Senate. As an institution has to be there. It's the bulwark, particularly when you're talking about foreign policy is Chris Senate has always been six year terms the the body with roles that the house doesn't have in terms of advice and consent on ambassador nominees and president's cabinet and court. But the ability with the longer term to see beyond the hill and to develop relationships, you saw Senator McCain relationships. He built around the world and much of Senator McCain's final year in the Senate or spent reassuring allies that we are still there allies. That's important and whatever role I can play outside of this body. I'll play because it's it's, it's vital. It's important. The Senate has an institution needs to return to. It's a former glory. I guess it put it that way as most deliberative body in the world, and it would be tough to make the case that it is right now. So I, I will. I will play a role. I will stay involved. Let's talk about the institutional jalousie of the supreme court. If just judge Cavanaugh is confirmed, Chris will be some Democrats will refuse to accept his legitimacy because of his statements in the hearings and we face the prospects of five to four decisions of Republicans against Democrats in ways that could fundamentally undermined faith in the rule of law much will turn on chief Justice, John Roberts in an effort to avoid this. Tell us what you think Roberts must do should do in order to preserve the legitimacy of the court. Are you concerned about its legitimacy? And what would be the consequences of sued citizens, losing faith in the nonpartisan legitimacy of the rule of law? Partly why this moment is so powerful and so fraught is that we have asked the supreme court to be the arbiter, the deciding point for some of our most personal passionate, powerful issues as a country. So in the arc of our lifetimes in from. Racial integration to gun ownership from marriage equality to now, sexual harassment issues have been put onto the court that cannot be easily resolved in legislative processes and that have taken a constitutional Hugh. But in some ways, define our sense of ourselves and our scope and our role of citizens, how much can we contribute into whom citizens United can the government survey all our most private communications? How do we treat those who are captured in the course of combat. You know, the supreme court is the place that we look to in the last sixty seventy years to make these values decisions for the country. We've been able to have it play that role and not tear the country apart, partly because of this legitimacy which is intensely fragile the point of the robes. It's to make them all sort of look more similar. They don't have an army as I think president Jackson memorably pointed out there force is in their credibility as independent arbiters of the constitution. It is gravely at risk the way we've conducted ourselves as senators the way we talk to each other the way we described these issues and the ways in which judge Kavanagh's character and credibility have been challenged and put on trial and ways in which he spoke to us as a committee that I thought. Were overly partisan. All of this is a steamy John. Delilah, that goes right at the credibility of the court. Chief Justice Roberts believe is an institution list to understands how fragile the credibility of the court is. And you know, my hope is that we will conduct ourselves even though it is inevitable, there will be deep bitterness and anger and frustration at the outcome of this nomination. No matter how it ends is that we will reduce the frequency with which we describe judges as wearing blue and red jerseys in casual conversation. We now say so and so calm and Obama judge. So so common a Bush. Judge sound so comma Trump judge as if that tells you exactly what they will decide. There are two new federal judges in Delaware where I worked well and professionally and easily with Don Mcgann. They are Trump nominees, Senator carpenter, returned blue slips. They were confirmed nearly unanimously by the court, excuse me by the Senate, and I think will serve admirably and long on our court. Do I. It is fair to them to call them Trump judges with the opprobrium that that brings in my party or to have the other party call them Trump judges with an expectation that that tells you the ark of their judicial service now. And we've allowed that approach. We do wear red and blue jerseys. We are elected as members of parties in his partisans. We work hard to respect each other and know each other across that, but our judiciary has now been profoundly affected by the way we behave in speak. I think we are really at risk of losing that. And so you know, Jeff spoke early on in this exchange about the ways the Senate is different from the house, changing the rules on confirmation of judges. Something Democrats did I and then Republicans followed our lead, not having a sixty, vote threshold, long periods of obstruction, holding certain seats open, refusing to confirm qualified nominees of the other party. I mean, part of Lindsey grams white hot anger was because he voted for soda were and for keagan and cannot believe it is legitimate for someone like me to not be voting for judge Gorsuch, given his credentials. So. I'm just citing an example that Lindsey had a conversation about. So there's a lot of he said she said back and forth disliked distrust between senators on this. If we have a court that begins to behave in a way, you really can predict exactly how they will decide for the rest of their careers based on who nominated them haven't help us because the court cannot become as partisan divided as the congress and as the country. That's just. That's just what what are your concerns about the future legitimacy of the court? What can chief Justice Roberts to? And if judge Cavin is confirmed, some Democrats are talking about impeaching him in the house or packing the size of the supreme court. Increasing to thirteen justices as was done in eighteen hundred and during the civil war. What would you say to those Democrats about the effect of that on the future legitimacy of the rule of law stuff? I mean, that was just Christus gave a tutorial on what and don't expect me. We've in steamy Jumba lia-. Any political discussion? Incredible. But. But I, when I walked into that room on Friday and saw the food fight that was going on between our parties split on the dice Democrats threatening to walk out and not even vote in the final vote. Just going back and forth. Just this vitriol, that's when when I sat there and then it came to Chris and Chris gave a very sober rational. Speech about how we could move forward. I thought that's what we've got to do because the supreme court is still the last bastion of. Last institution that most Americans have faith in and as Chris mentioned, that's how it is worked for us to cede so much authority and give so much power to the supreme court because people still have faith if that faith is gone. Then heaven help us. And so it is a concern I was, I was very troubled by the the tone of the. The remarks the initial defense that that judge cavenaugh gave was something like I told my wife. I hope that I would sound that indignant if I were if I felt that I was unjustly. You know maligned, but then it went on and the interaction with the members was sharp and partisan and net concerns me. And I tell myself, you give a little leeway because of what he's been through. But on the other hand, we can't have this on the court. We simply can't, and you know, talk of impeachment or stacking the court. It's just it's going the wrong direction. And I mean this, this function has many fathers. We can go back to, you know, statements made in the nineteen eighties with Barak or Clarence Thomas hearings, or you name it. You can find a villain anywhere back there. The truth is both parties have engaged in it and have made the situation worse, and we simply have to elevate people to leadership positions and elect people who see it differently and understand the value. And and purpose of the supreme court. I do worry this, this red and blue jerseys referring to each other or these justices by who nominate them. It's just a, it can't go on. As Lincoln said, I'm loath to close, but I can't. If I must ask you each for very short. Final thoughts. Lincoln in eighteen thirty eight. As we talked about earlier warned about mob, aquatic government and fear that when citizens lose their allegiance to the rule of law than liberty and the Republic wolf alter, Chris what is at stake in this moment when the legitimacy of the Senate and the supreme court are under siege, and what do you wanna tell your fellow citizens about what they can do about it? I want to tell my fellow citizens. I that Jeff flake is an earnest decent thoughtful kind man, good husband father, and someone who deeply respects our democracy and the rule of law, and I hold that opinion fiercely about him despite are being from different parties, different states, different backgrounds and different frames of reference. And despite our voting records being so sharply divergent, and if citizens can't hear. Respect and recognize ways in which senators presidents members of the house, Kenya wracked with each other in a more respectful and decent thorough way that I'm gravely concerned about the future of the rule of law respect for core institutions of our society and the ways in which the rest of the world sees us. We are an exceptional experiment in human history. Rarely, if ever has a continental power assembled itself to be governed by its own people in an act of original creation that was exceptional, but profoundly flawed, and then gradually diligently over the decades expanded, the scope of Justice expanded. The definition of citizenship expanded the access to opportunity in ways that gradually made true or more true. It's opening promises. We are an exceptional nation and we are at risk of losing it all. All through a populist mob mentality where no one can win because everyone must lose. It's up to you folks and I just have eternal gratitude to my friend, Jeff for making us take one week and look at each other and hear each other and respected. Last word very appropriately is to you, your thoughts and concerns about the future of the Republic and rule of law, and what is your message about what can do about it? Philip reaching over just dropping Chris's Mike. That. Can can't add to that. This guy is incredible, and and the thing that I will miss most about the Senate is relationships like this and being able to work together with people who I view as as true statesman and every since the word and I, you know this this notion that we have to see each other differently or just one example. I was on that baseball field in June of seventeen, and when the gunman opened fire. And I just remember running to the dugout and seeing the bullets pitch off the gravel in front of me after Steve Scalise went down and whatnot. But if there's a memory of that that stays in my mind, it's that turning and seeing that. And just thinking that seemed like an attorney. Why us? Why here. How can someone look on field that a bunch of middle aged men playing baseball, trying to relive their youth and see the enemy. And that's what this type of politics is Brad, and we just got to get beyond it where we, where we look at each other across the aisle and not see the enemy, but to see, I mentioned last night, it's it's as if. It's as if you want to heal yourself to heal your own brain by taking out your heart, we are different parties but were part of the same Oregon, the same body and you. You've got to worst get together here. We rarely does a party, like I said, have sixty votes. It would be horrible. If that came to be for an extended period of time, we've got to find a way to look at each other and trust each other again and not question each other's motives. And if we can do that, then we can be worthy of this Republic that we have. Ladies and gentlemen for their service to the United States of America. Please join me in thanking senators. This conversation was part of three part of entitled. The constitution in crisis presented live at the Atlantic festival in DC on October second. You can check out video this conversation and the rest of the program at constitution center dot org. Ford slash debate on the past programs. Page program was presented in partnership at the Atlantic and generously sponsored by the John Templeton foundation, and the William and flora Hewlett foundation special, thanks to Atlantic live and their on-site av team from saly this recording. Please remember to rate and review our show and subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcast or wherever you listen on behalf of the national constitution center. I'm Ana work. Panoply.

Senate Senator Jeff flake Chris Senator supreme court Delaware congress Senator McCain Washington DC Senate Judiciary committee United States John Roberts national constitution center Cavanaugh FBI Jeff Rosen baseball judge Kavanagh Chris coons
Remembering RBG

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

25:38 min | 6 months ago

Remembering RBG

"Happy holidays everyone. It's mary this week. We are rebroadcasting episodes. That stuck with us even in this year when the news cycle could flip itself on its head between breakfast and lunchtime today. We're going to remember ruth bader ginsburg. She died in september at eighty seven years old and back then the person i most wanted to process the news with was dolly olympic. Dolly with wick has covered the supreme court and watched ruth bader ginsburg for a long time. Now but it wasn't until a few years back. She realized ruth bader ginsburg was watching her to. She said she liked reading me. Because i was spicy. That was the very first note i got. Which was that. she she had said. I like reading that girl she spicy. There are a lot of ways to remember. Ruth bader ginsburg's legacy choose a feminist a scholar a jurist. But diana says she was also polite old school. Ginsburg was known for sending these notes out on supreme court stationary. She sent one to a little girl who dressed up like her for her schools superhero day. She sent another to a writer and fan. Who'd invited our bg to her wedding on a lark. But it wasn't just thank you notes the thing she was most famous for. I think was like you'd submit your wedding vows. Jeff rosen tells this story but so many people tell the story of submitting the draft of their wedding vows to in the morning edited. Yeah you get back. Jeff's version of the story is very funny that you're sitting in pro forma like this is what we've agreed to do. Will you just read this a two in the morning getting back. Handwritten like And this is a little retrograde. Don't like this maybe rethink this editing. Someone's wedding vows for them. It reveals a precision. That was trademark ginsburg. There was his famous story. Where when she argued a case at the supreme court justice blackmun used to rate give people letter grades oral advocates when he was on the bench and he wrote c. plus when she argued very precise female and like it was it was not it was not a lottery thing but i i often think that very precise female nails it exactly. Whoa have you. Are you morning like a new year reporter. You covered ruth bader ginsburg but have you given yourself time to feel sad. I mean friday night. I felt like i'd been really punched in the solar plexus and that's ironic in light of the fact that we all knew about her sequence of health scares This year and so in some sense. I think everyone should prepared. And in a weird way nobody seems to have been prepared dahlia says after she learned ginsburg passed away. She just couldn't sleep then. She thought backed the last interview that done how the whole time ginsburg had been sipping tea out of fine china loudly. You could hear it when you listen back to the recording. So at four in the morning when i couldn't sleep i got down my mother's old collection of really fine china teacups and made myself a cup of tea and just sat there clattering it into the saucer and that was i think as close as i came to really letting myself feel the loss. I think in some sense because this gut so politicized so fast and i remember justice. Scalia's death was like this two. Where within an hour you had to move on and put on your gloves because we're gonna fight it's hard to really sit with the the hole in your heart and your stomach because already you're getting kind of conscripted into battle today on the show remembering ruth bader ginsburg and considering the fight to come. I'm mary harris. You're listening to what next stick with us. So i think a lot of people especially because it had the whole weekend due process feel like they know ruth bader ginsburg story that you know. She became a lawyer when a lot of women didn't become lawyers and she heard from harvard law columbia to follow her husband but her husband ended up being one of her biggest kits and really being a key to her arriving at the supreme court. She was a founding director of the women's rights. Project the aclu. They're just like so many threads to pull on. I'm wondering if you could just take one that you can't stop mulling over. Maybe it's a case that she litigated. Maybe it's a case she ruled on that you think in all of this. We need to be paying attention to. It's funny one of the things that i always observed. Was that in some sense. She was between generations. Right she was. This really comes out. I think in the the bio pic that she was too old in a weird way for seventies radicalism. And so i mean we just forget you know. She went to law school in the fifties not in the sixties. And so in the movie. If you think about daniel steve woman's movie you know on the basis of sex in the movie what that means is that. She's teaching a law. School class in her students are young. And they have you know would like jan brady hair and big afros. And they're pushing her and she's this very button down utterly proper A new york shoe ish lady and you called her the dorks dork some point. Yeah i mean she just again. I think it goes to her fundamental conservatism. That in the nineteen seventies when women were burning their bras were arguing for the er a were pushing for liberation in a really physical way. Rpg was just a brain in a vat. She was dispassionately laying out the picture for a whole arc of cases that would forever change the way the constitution treats women. She could see the horizon. It fought lake where it's like. She was just phenomenal at knowing her audience being a woman lawyer knowing she was going to argue for women's rights in front of a bunch of men and thinking through like how do i make that argument to this particular group of people. You know early on. She said that she likened what she did. When she argued cases before all male panel she likened it to being a kindergarten teacher. And which i always kind of hated because i felt like hey That's not a very empowered vision of her role as an advocate right. Like i'm going to explain really slowly to you at the supreme court Why it is that gender bias men as much as women but she was very always very very careful to say that that's what she was doing. She was bringing men along in her early career. And i thought that was really interesting. Because at the one level it does seem disempowering. It does seem so beneath what other oil advocates mail order advocates had to do but in another sense it really was the way she approached the world she always said like get the work done but do it without making enemies you know. Do it without blowing up. Relationships and seems quaint. Well it does but also part of it is just pragmatic. Great if you're talking to a supreme court and she argued six cases at the supreme court and it's nine men you just can't go in there like rip off your bra. Set it on fire at counsel table and hope for the best. It seems so retrograde right that she s to not just talk to them like she's a kindergarten teacher but then bring them a male plaintiff because they couldn't possibly imagine a case that impacted women. But i think that even though it's queen like that was what was kind of radical ingenious dahlia says understanding the judicial trail justice ginsburg blazed. It means going back to one of our very first cases. It's versus commissioner. That never made it to the supreme court. It was about tax law. For i promise you. The supreme court's performance in tax cases is an exceedingly funny subject back in twenty ten justice. Ginsburg gave a speech about this case to members of the tenth circuit court. The speech itself was a bit of a surprise. it was supposed to be delivered by her husband. Her husband gave was supposed to give a speech The year that he died he was supposed to give a speech at the tenth circuit. Called how. I got my wife her very first job and he he was the sweetest sweetest speech He died that spring but she went and gave the speech verbatim at the tenth circuit. I i was in the audience. And she read it. I mean people were sobbing. Because she read it in his voice dry. I'd you know perfectly. Bg moritz versus commissioner was a case the ginsberg's to together for client was a man who is suing the irs because he wasn't able to get a six hundred dollar tax deduction for his caregiving expenses for his ailing mother. The tax deduction it was only available to women and it becomes the basis from which she starts to bring case after case after case on behalf of man that was what she did she made visible to men by making it about men. And how sex stereotyping in the law doesn't just disadvantage women because it makes assumptions about who stays home and cares for people and who is. The breadwinner also hurts man for me mary. I guess these are all just a steady and teaching people empathy and that she's trying to say if i can't get you to imagine what it's like to be a woman. Let me try to get you to imagine what it's like to be a man who's being victimized in some sense by a legal regime of bias of bias about what we think the different genders do she believed in systems and and i think while she had a lot of patients for protests and cacophony and bodies on the streets world was never that it was. How do i. Tinker tinker tinker fiddle. Fiddle fiddle persuade persuade. Persuade find male allies where nobody would look and in so doing alienate almost everybody who says hashtag activism. You're doing it wrong and yet hers endures. We have to talk about what comes next year. I mean within hours of her death. It became clear that she had dictated to her granddaughter. This dying wish that whoever replaces her not be nominated seated until after the presidential election and also within hours of her death. We have the president and make mcconnell saying they will not grant that wish. There's been a lot of talk in the last couple of days about the hypocrisy of it of the fact that mitch mcconnell held that seat open was in office but now rushing to fill it but in some ways is that the argument. We should be having. I mean it is juicy to look at tape from lindsey graham saying literally. I want you to call me on this. I will not put someone in the supreme court if it's during the last year of the next president's term and of him say hold the tape and then of course immediately turn around and say of course i'm gonna fill the seat but is that the fight we should be having. Yeah i mean. I think it i really felt like it was sort of john stewart. Advocation of you know. We'll get some gotcha video and that will shame them you know. Here's here's lindsey. Graham saying something different. Here's chuck grassley saying something different. And i felt like that didn't work in two thousand sixteen right. We had videos of orrin hatch. Saying you know who'd be great instead of elena kagan merrick garland and we thought that would somehow shame republicans into being like. Oh i said that. Well then i better be consistent and i i sort of feel like. I don't know maybe that works. In like murder she wrote. But it doesn't work in contemporary politics to have video of someone saying the diametrically opposed thing for years earlier. I think that you just do what lindsey graham did. And what mitch. Mcconnell did which is you say. Oh that was different because This republicans control the senate or it was the second year of the obama presidency. Or you know. He wore a tan suit. Like i just. I'm not sure that a ton of effort should be expanded trying to shame people into having consistent views because this was about power in two thousand sixteen and it was about power in two thousand twenty. It's who controls the senate. Yeah i mean i guess. Let's talk a little bit about what has to happen now. Both if you're a republican who wants to see a new justice seated and if you're a democrat who wants to block this or at least create enough fear and republicans that they don't move forward. I mean if we're talking about getting a nominee through the senate if democrats wanted to block it. They need to peel off. I think four senators from the republican side. Is that writing. That's right because mike pence rate is the tiebreaker. Yep so we're down to the same. People seem to always be having about susan collins of maine who is in a very tight race with sarah gideon. You're looking at lisa murkowski who isn't interest but said the day ruth bader ginsburg died. I will not see someone because it's too close to the election. If cory gardner in colorado you have mitt romney so what is the sort of ground game now in washington as we move forward. I think it's feeling very groundhog day. Ish to me. It feels lake. This is we had this round impeachment like you said we had it on the break cavanaugh. Vote you know. Who can mitch mcconnell release if need be And still get what he wants. And i think it's it's really hard you know. But it's it's there's this other question about whether then happens in the lame duck session rated even if it doesn't happen prior to the election it could still happen in In the lame duck session and that's a whole other. There's nothing to lose exactly. You can lose your seat and still so. I think that there are a set of questions around which of those is more advantageous and in a weird way. I think all of that slightly misses the point which is regardless of what happens. This is fundamentally changes campaigns. This changes the race. This gives At least i think. Mitch mcconnell says republicans a chance to run on a thing. That really really really did clinch the vote for donald trump in two thousand sixteen. Which is i'm going to change the court and rose going to go away and we'll change the race for democrats to i mean. I think the data i saw was that act blue which supports democratic candidates had some of its biggest fundraising the night ruth. Bader ginsburg died. Will this i think is the interesting question is i've been saying for four years and you're probably bored of me saying it. Democrats just went onto screen. Save after merrick garland was nominated. They didn't largely run their senate. Races around did obama is should have been jumping up and down on the white house lawn every day. I having hillary clinton should have been jumping up and down saying this is a stolen seat. It should not. This should not have happened and every single democrat in a senate race. I think should have been campaigning on holy cow. They're stealing a seat. And almost crickets. And just by way of contrast. Ted cruz was openly running on john mccain openly running on the proposition that not only did we steal that seat they were saying in september october of two thousand sixteen but if hillary clinton wins and we control the senate we will hold that seat open for four more years or eight more years. They are not going to see the justice. And i just think the disparity dovetails with this general you know enthusiasm gap around the court that has existed for decades where republicans run on the court and democrats. Say you know if you care about the environment if care about workers rights if care about women's rights if you care about racial justice if you care about. Lgbtq rights vote for me without explaining to voters. You can care about all those things you can legislate all those things and lose the court and lose them all. And i just think. We utterly failed in twenty-six team to have a proportionate conversation about that so one side was chance. Now that's it and you're exactly right that even prior to the blue fundraising. I was seeing polls. That said actually post cavenaugh. Democrats actually really are energy jazzed around the court particularly women and that the two thousand sixteen is not going to replay itself with of general apathy around the court. Even before justice ginsburg died. Those numbers were changing. It's funny because in these last couple of days. I keep seeing quotes from ruth bader ginsburg making the rounds and they really underline what you've said about her. How she's this sort of small. C conservative really believed in the system. Sort of pulling the levers one at a time making logical arguments. Like there's one quote about you know real change during change happens one step at a time and i just. I compared that with what our colleague jim newell wrote about the political process. That's about to happen. And he ended his piece on friday night saying with being in a slow moving political crisis for a while. It's about to get fast. And it made me think how i think. Part of what. We're morning with ruth bader ginsburg. He is the ability of her approach to work. That slow methodical work. That's part of what we lost. I love that because it reminds me of one of my favorite ginsburg stories. Which i can't tell in her voice and do it justice but she always told. The story of there was a famous toward the end of his career. Then chief justice william rehnquist pens this really arresting piece about the family. Medical leave act. And he's on her side of it and he writes this piece about you know stripped-down basically talking about what it's like to be a caregiver and to be pressed and stressed and how you need to be able to take care of your family and it turns out. Of course this is very much while it surprising from what rehnquist is totally informed by his real life view of the world because his daughter at that point was a single mom and was trying to raise kids and was juggling and he was living with that and he really saw what her life was like and ends up writing this opinion that's incredibly solicitous of women and caregiving and the juggle and the pressure and she always told this funny story where she would say you know. And then mardi read the draft opinion or read the opinion in sort of hollered. Ruthie did you write this for him like did you. Did you go straight this thing. And she always. I think told it as a story of how i guess. It's back to those corny words right empathy and that we can bring each other along and listening and that it's never too late to change. I think she felt like her job. And i hate that. She characterized it as being a kindergarten teacher because it was so much more lofty than that mary. It was just to make that which is not visible in this case to man but make it visible help people see what they don't know and i think she lived that dual life. Her whole life freight where she knew. What lilly ledbetter suffered in terms of unequal pay. She knew what the women of walmart suffered in terms of discrim. All of those cases are the function of living a double life where she was both a jurist and architect but also a woman who had been the victim of all those things. And i think what you're describing. Which is the thing she would always describe. Is that it this act of persuasion of. I'm going to try to draw a picture so that you can understand the thing that you can't see and maybe that will at some point lead you to write about the family medical leave act in a way. That understands what you didn't see but do see. That was how i think truly every day. That's what she when she pulled her like little stilettos on and went into the office. That's what she was thinking. I think and i think you're completely right. That not only. Is that broken down at the court but it's broken down in congress. It's broken down in so many of our interactions with each other that benefit of the doubt that let me listen to what you you're describing and see if i can make space for that in my world view so i think in a way you're quite right. I think what we are warning is not this iconic gangsta rapper version of rpg. Who set the world on fire but for me a much much deeper. Sadder belief in the art of empathy and persuasion as a means to get us to work together on things for the collective good. I don't know if that makes sense. But i think that's that's always what i think her project was and i think you're right. I think it's vanishing before our eyes. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you dial. Wake covers the courts and the law for slate. She's also the host of the podcast amicus and earlier this year. She did a project that focused on what happened to the other women in ruth bader ginsburg harvard law class. It's really fantastic. You can check it out at slate dot com and that's the show. We'll be back with piping hot. Fresh new episodes starting january fourth. This episode of wet next was produced by mary. Wilson jason leone elena schwartz and daniel hewitt we had helped getting it ready for rebroadcast from frank kelly. This show gets better every day with the help of alison benedict and alicia. Montgomery and i am. Mary harris all here with another one of my favorite episodes tomorrow.

ruth bader ginsburg supreme court ginsburg Jeff rosen Ginsburg dahlia harvard law columbia merrick garland senate daniel steve jan brady Mitch mcconnell tenth circuit court moritz versus lindsey graham mary harris blackmun Tinker tinker tinker china
 Bonus: A Conversation About Conversations With RBG

Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick

1:07:16 hr | 1 year ago

Bonus: A Conversation About Conversations With RBG

"Hi and this is a special holiday. Bonus edition of amicus. Slates podcast about the court Sun. The law and the rule of law and justice justice. I am Dolly Olympic and cover some of those things for sleet and here. I am popping up over the Thanksgiving holidays to bring you a conversation. I had with National Constitution Center. President Jeff Rosen at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia a little bit earlier this month it was about someone. We're both very thankful for at. And that is Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader GINSBURG. Jeff has just written a beautiful book conversations with repeater Ginsburg and and it's an informal portrait of the Justice that he has painted by drawing on his many conversations with RPG over the years dating back to the nineteen nineties. This conversation first first appeared on Jeff's podcast the people but I wanted to share it with slade in our amicus listeners. Because it really is lovely and so at the risk of being the Meta. Here's a conversation about conversations with Ruth Bader GINSBURG enjoying all right. Well well thank you all for coming out this is this is kind of a groupie thing. Wherein Jeff Rosen and get to see who's WHO's the bigger Ruth Bader GINSBURG groupie and you get to watch but essentially it's just a pleasure to to be here helping jeff spread word about this really really beautiful book? I'm Jeff I think I WANNA start at the very very beginning and just ask you to describe how you first got to know Ruth Bader Ginsburg so it was nineteen ninety one and I was a law clerk on the. US Court of Appeals for the DC circuit. And I was in an elevator. I think I was going up and in-theatre steps this austere very formidable woman in workout clothes news coming from a class called jazzercise and judge. GINSBURG hadn't met had an ability to be incredibly intimidating. Even her her workout clothes and she was completely silent and the elevator. Now those who don't know our can mistake this silence for inaccessibility but it is kind of daunting to have a kind of long elevator ride with the other person saying nothing so just in an effort to break the ice and because I couldn't think of anything else to say I just astor what you've seen recently. I didn't even know she was an opera fam- but I am and I couldn't think of anything else to say as it happened that that was the right question to ask because she really loves opera. As do I and we started talking about the opera's we'd seen in the opposite we were going to see. And that started this magical serendipitous serendipitous blessed friendship that has lasted for twenty five years. So so this book is essentially a collection Shen of conversations that Jeff and the justice had over the years on a variety of topics and trust me. When I tell you any one one of these topics is something that you really do? Want to hear what the justice had to say. But I thought Jeff just a framing question I I would just ask you this justice. Ginsburg always talks about the advice that her mother gave her as a young girl. And at one level it sounds kind of trait at another level. I think it's very deep actually inherently contradictory. She always says her mother told her to things. Thanks always one being dependent to be a lady now bearing in mind that at the time B. Lady Lady meant don't be independent is a life that she is actually crafted in which she has managed to do both and you and I have had the conversation before about how often the of the rapper gangster you know the killer crusher are g that has emerged toward the end of her career somehow disturbs the part of her. That is a a lady very much a lady and I wonder if you could just as a way of setting the table. Jeff talk a little bit about you. Describe her as a minimalist list in the book you describe her as very small C conservative. We know that on the DC circuit. She agreed with Antonin. Scalia and Robert Bork as much as is she agreed with anyone and through the arc of this book. You actually trace that change so I wonder if you can just take us through the Ruth Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That was a lady was very careful. Very reserved still is to the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of today. Who by the way? I have the tote bag. So that's such a great question because it encapsulates both the essence of what makes her such remarkable model and hero personally and constitutionally. And you're right that those two injunctions from her mother and the fact that she tells it shows how significant significant is to her might seem to be attention. How can you be a lady and be independent? I asked her about this during our last interview in July. And I say your mother often told you to be a lady to be independent ended. Yes she said by that. I gather she meant overcome unproductive emotions like anger and jealousy. Is that right. Yes she said. That's the voice of the great wisdom traditions. Yes but it's very hard to achieve in practice absolutely early and then I said so. How do you actually do it? And she said Lauren. My wonderful wife has just arrived. Sir Your seat is right there. It's good that you've you've come just at the right moment darling. Because we're talking about Jesus advice from her mother lady and to be independent so I said so I said how do you actually achieve it. And she said because I realized that if I don't overcome unproductive emotions I'll lose precious time for useful work and it's is that extrordinary self mastery. That is the advice of the great wisdom traditions of the Bible and the Bugaboo Gita Buddhist traditions to set aside your ego so that you can focus on achieving your True Path and serving others that she lives more more successfully than any human being I've ever encountered and it was in the course of writing this book that I saw it in action. She agreed to do the project we began to collect interviews. I sent her the manuscript last January or so and then of course she was ill and and I didn't want to disturb her and didn't know it was going to happen on June twenty-seventh ten minutes after the Supreme Court term ended. I got an email from her. Saying thing I've edited your manuscript will give it to you on Tuesday and I was completely stunned both that you would think of such a thing a little bit. The partisan gerrymandering has just been upheld and the senses struck down and she. She's focused on her deadline. I came in. I said I'm stunned that you did this. How did you find time to do this? Will I did it in the back of cars as and when I was at the movies and stuff like that and every single page of the manuscript was marked up in her beautiful penciled script with both Commas Amazon and type was in Paul Gallen my spectacular editor is here as well and I would like around laws to him because I am grateful to him and Paul is a really great copy editor and Lauren. Read it really carefully to but of course all of us missed typos and stuff that RPG catches her attention to detail is so much greater than any other human beings and she would change individual words and in that beautiful pencil every pages worked up and just the image. I have to share with you. And all of your friends of this great lady with all the burdens of the country on her shoulders and with these terrible health challenges that are afflicting her setting setting aside her physical pain so that she can focus on all of her work. Obviously this was just one small project in the middle of everything that she was doing and always believing that the work work overcoming your ego not getting distracted maintaining the focus because it was so urgently important to continue to spread the light hurt ability to actually achieved that inspires me every single day. And we lauren and I talk about it all the time you wake up and there's the choice I'm going to start surfing or reading and learning and think. Ww Rpg do and you read and you learn and you right right so it's just a model of how to live so I think that's what her mother really meant. She was not raised as an observant Jew. Although she's embraces her Jewish identity so I don't know that she tied the tradition but be be independent and be a lady meant. Don't lose your temper when people are demeaning you with sexist epithets fats at a time when the epithets were appalling never get rattled when judges male chauvinist judges are demeaning. You with you. You know calling him this Ginsburg. And now we know Harry Blackman's notes sort of insulting halting hers. Well never losing your focus. Why Astor because I wanted to win my case you know so? That's so it applies to men to be a gentleman. In the sense of be controlled be achieved self mastery as Aristotle talked about so that you can achieve true well-being by serving among others and that's why I think the two are not intention with each other to be a lady is by definition to be independent because you're a free of ego based emotions. You're not when justice. Scalia saying hang things like your opinion cannot be taken seriously as he did a Justice O'Conner justice Ginsburg stressed. I never responded in kind. I love him but he drives me crazy. She said and she and when people are losing their temper all around you. You don't lose yours. So that's what I think. It means personally. Now I'll stop and we can take another beat about how to frame how that played out professionally. But I'm very glad you noted that central part of her character my my corollary to jeff story. Worry is that when her nephew who was her husband Marty's nephew who wrote the screenplay for the big bio-pic that came out the last year and it took him years to write it and he called and said I love free to have a look at this thinking that she'd she'd give it the Hollywood read but she just blow through it and a day later send him notes and she. She apparently said to him same same deal she received it. He'd worked on it for years and she said page one line one she he said and this on my podcast. He said it took days to go through her notes because she was absolutely ferocious that he get the story right and more than anything she really wanted him to get. Marty right the character of Marty right because jeff notes that was a love story for the ages ages and she would not allow him to sort of fudge any of that but it goes to this underneath this almost myopic topic cartoonish precision. There is such a lofty fence of responsibility to get the story right until one more more again. Editing story tonight were married by her inner chambers and and she said send me the proposed scripted. He'd like to read and hear a couple of samples that I've used before so we had it in kind of forgot about it. We had our mind on another things. Assistant Rodent said the justice would like you're at Spi Four. PM Tomorrow once again. We forgot about three PM. The the justice is waiting for your script. So and this is the middle of the Supreme Court term. You know she's got other stuff to do so we sent in the proposed vows and use the the language that she had used in previous ceremonies which ended with Geoffrey. You may kiss the bribe so we sent it in at three thirty at about four thirty. You the marked up track changes in word come back. And she's crossed out Jeffrey. You may kiss the bride and replace it with Jeffrey. And Lauren. You mainbrace we see each other for the first kiss of your marriage and not only. Is it an awe. But think about it because she's given the traditional thou scores of times maybe hundreds of times. But she's so careful and so thoughtful that it suddenly occurred to broaden it and to make it Gal -Tarian and to take the time to do this in the middle of everything else is absolutely extraordinary but but it does raise the question of how this great judge who on the DC DC circuit. And when she started off at the Supreme Court was viewed as a very particular as a judge would definitely pay close attention to word. Choices is and was a judge in a minimalist and was very keen on narrow opinions that wouldn't dramatically disturb legislative choices became the most galvanizing and crusading advocate of liberalism of our time and I asked her about it and she insisted owed Jeff. I didn't change the court change. She said when Justice O'Connor retired and justice Ginsburg when justice Stevens Stevens retired becomes the senior associate justice. Now here justice Ginsburg stressed understanding a little bit about the procedure. Of how Supreme Court operates is important when the justices hear cases and they go around the table and they vote if the chief justice is in the majority. If he's one of the five he can either right the decision himself or assign it to the judge who best reflects his views if he's in the minority than the senior associate justice in the majority can be a shadow chief and she or he writes the decision or assigns it to the Justice who best reflects her views. When justice Stevens retired Justice Ginsburg becomes the senior associate justice all of a sudden? She thinks her role. Change is is far from being. The minimalist always crafting narrow opinions. She thinks it's important for the Liberals to speak in one voice so she starts writing the main descents and it was in two thousand thirteen that she writes her shelby county descent which inspires the Tumbler. Blog the notorious RPG which goes viral and. She writes the majority opinions when when she has the opportunity to do that. So that's her explanation that it was really just a change in role and in the composition of the court. Not In her Batali. I have to ask you this because you've thought doc is deeply about this as I do. Buy that explanation or do you think that she actually did change. So it's interesting. Jeffrey counts in the book. In a case that happens when our. BG is on the bench alone and her whole career. She's one of two and she was actually pretty. Scrupulous appeals about saying gender. Doesn't matter that much they she and Justice O'Conner jeff talks about this to every single year that the two of them sat together. You're at some point and oral advocate would call justice GINSBURG justice O'Conner and call justice O'Conner Justice Ginsburg happened every single term so much so at the National Women's law center had t shirts made for them. That said I'm Sandy. She's Ruth I'm Ruth She Sandy. It was like a joke but also I think that in in that period which is sort of the beginning of my watching them. It seemed that she was much less anxious because she wasn't the only and she was very aware aware that she wasn't the only that the sort of trail-blazing had been done by Justice O'Connor and then when O'Connor left in two thousand and five live to take care of her ailing husband which is by the way a whole other feminist story because it was really a thing that the male justices would not have have done. She felt so O'Connor steps down to take care of her husband and suddenly just Ginsburg is the only which is a long long way of saying that in two thousand nine when the court argues a case about a little girl in middle school who's been strip searched a for contraband ibuprofen. She's apparently running an Ibuprofen ring at her and she's very very in really personal way searched by school administrators. Who Do not call her parents and give her no option and the oral argument in that case I remember sitting in the room and the oral argument? was this kind of walk. Oh Walk who's on first. Everybody was making jokes. Folks Justice Scalia was joking about whether they searched from the outside in the inside. Out and Chief Justice Roberts was making jokes and then pour justice briar. Who Just Jeffrey Council? This in the book cannot help himself but make a bad situation worse. Start saying things about when I was in high school. Changing for gym people would stick things in my underwear and of course everybody at this point is doubled doubled over laughing and Justice Ginsburg who never loses her cool because her mom is playing in her ears saying never lose your cool actually gets very angry and she sort of tunes up her colleagues from the bench and says this is nothing like aac changing for gym class and she describes how this child was humiliated while the Strip search was going on and then interestingly by the way she gives an interview while the cases pending where she says to Joan Biskupic. I can't believe that I'm the only woman on the bench who thought that was appalling. And if there were more women on the bench it would not have been like that and then she said which is fighting words for our BG. I don't think the men share my sensitivities on this and by the way as Jeff also points out by the time the case comes down all all the judges with two exceptions mostly have conformed entirely to her vision of this as an inappropriate search but it was her wielding in a kind of soft power and I had never seen her do it until then and watching the Ark of that story by the way as that was happening and suddenly you're being looked at as a replacement it felt as though she kind of kicked into some kind of gear. She was very much. I think offended by being the only. She was offended by that kind of the way that went down in the Stafford case. Ace and I think she felt as though just gently by chiding her colleagues she had affected constitutional outcome. That was not what looked like what's going to happen from oral argument and I think that to me is when I- carbon date how she started to change mm-hmm and then you know as you say. Hobby lobby comes. She certainly went after justice. Kennedy in the so-called partial birth abortion case for what she I thought of very paternalistic writing but I think that it wasn't almost accesses wrong. It's not that she changed the court changed. I think she realized she had a really singular role she could play and she was very deft and subtle about playing hanging initially and I think it started to feel comfortable to her. She really really by Hobby Lobby and by a AH Gonzalez and the other cases that came along I think she embraced it so convincing and that is really a powerful powerful count and saying that she felt comfortable in the role seems right to remember. Of course she was an advocate and she calls herself in the book she said back in the days as when I was a flaming feminist. I had these goals but I had to win my case. And that's why she was always so strategic. She chose to represent men. Ah who'd been disadvantaged paternalistic laws favoring women and she always moved incrementally like Thurgood Marshall and her briefs were written in this very particular particular way constantly citing president because she was just so strategic but always. She's a passionate. She's the most important advocate of gender equality of our time and in in American history. Now so I think you're right that once. She both realized that she had a distinctive will to play was as you just said outraged by the fact that her male colleagues Alex weren't getting it. She could find her voice and then the writing changes to the early decisions quote other judges all the time as judge Posner said or as the court said in this case and they're full of citations every sentences footnoted suddenly after two thousand thirteen. So she's coming up with these great metaphors like just because because it's not you're not getting wet doesn't mean that you throw away your umbrella and she writes like a dream and she writes in a really galvanizing way and then young women and other citizens are galvanized responding. Start quoting her so she she's just freed up. She's liberated to say what she thinks and what she thinks she says she does not like. What's going on constitutionally at the court and I asked her what are the decisions that you would most like to see overturned? And she didn't miss a beat she. It's unusual unusual for a sitting justice to say this is the first on the list would be citizens united that was an outrage. And I just described describe. You can clap on a nonpartisan basis but there was nothing nonpartisan about her list because the next case was the healthcare case which after all came out for breath just for President Obama but justice. GINSBURG was outraged by chief. Justice Roberts is a separate opinion which broadly construed the commerce Which narrowly construed the commerce clause in ways that she thought would harm government regulation in the future? The next on her list is the Shelby County case. The voting rights its case and the final. One is Carl Hart and that was so interesting to there. was I wrote an article around the time that car came down saying Justice Kennedy votes with the Liberal. Oh justices in the marriage equality abortion cases and she wrote a letter out of the Blue Sang. You might be right about upholding row in Casey but what about car heart and what about Stemberg and what about those paternalistic stereotypes and she was. She was offended by the notion. That these meek women had to be protected from regretting in their own choices and she said so so it was. I think you're you're right a finding your voice feeling comfortable and then suddenly all the roles come together and you realize what it's like to have the the Thurgood Marshall of the women's we can. We can call Marshall the Ruth Bader Ginsburg for african-americans. Because because this is this just a constitutional hero founder boy so this leads me to one of the things that that you explore in the book is and and we forget this because again this time in her history that we've alighted but when she was first tapped for the US Supreme Court the the truth of the matter is women's groups did not want her. They were strongly opposed her. One of the funny Kotas to the story is that it was was Marty Ginsburg working the refs who managed to get and Jeff frozen by the way who writes a piece in the new republic that bounces her to the top of the list but the women's movement was really really suspicious of her and we've forgotten that piece of history and one of the things that's interesting thing is not just again. She didn't change. She actually had a fairly consistent criticism of row that she had elucidated dated the time that people took very much. I think a myth and it continues to be to this day her criticism of row. So I just want to read to you. What she said when Jeff asked her in one of the interviews why row was wrong and then just think about the fact that at one point that that was so inflammatory? That women didn't want her confirmed. Now it seems that she might have been on the right track and we failed to catch it. This is what she said Ed at the time of Roe v Wade this issue was all over the state legislatures. Sometimes the choice people one. Sometimes they lost. They were out there organizing and getting political experience France. The Supreme Court decision made every line the country even the most liberal unconstitutional in one fell swoop. The people who prevailed said how great we're done we've got it law. The Supreme Court gave it to us. What happened up position mounted instead of fighting in trenches state by state to retain restrictive abortion laws? There was was one clear. Target to aim at the unelected justices of the Supreme Court. This is a decision that should be made. So the argument went by the People's elected representatives. And not nine at the time old man so embedded in here. There's a few criticisms I think many of which have been borne out by history one. Is that the move. In opposition into row becomes the single most powerful and effective movement in the country. That attacks on the unelected judiciary become. He comes salient and organizing and then her third critique which is not in this quote is that she would always located reproductive right not in the due process clauses the privacy clauses not in the right that she scoffs at in row between a doctor and a woman and but in the equal protection clauses that women cannot function as economic equals in a society where they can't control their reproductive rights in many ways. Each of those critiques. Pretty Prophetic but it's amazing that she went from being somebody that the feminist movement at that time in the early nineties I found a way to conservative. And now here she is. She seems to have been ahead of her time. You sum that up so perfectly. And it's a remarkable example and prophetic. Exactly the right word in that sense. She's like our mutual hero justice GINSBURG in mind. And I had to. Justice Justice Brandeis who's a judicial profit. So just to unpack some of the stuff that Dia said. Isn't it amazing at the time. Women's groups opposed her. It's impossible to imagine now and yes. I had just fallen after the luck of meeting her. In the elevator my first job out of clerking was to be the young mm-hmm highly overconfident legal affairs editor of the New Republic magazine and there was the Supreme Court seat and I took it upon myself to make a list list ranking the candidates and put her at the top of the list saying that her criticisms of Ro were present and she was respected by Liberals and conservatives lives and. I know that I'd just gone to lunch with the law clerks at the. US Court of Appeals and two weeks earlier justice clear had been there and he was asked if you had to be trapped on desert island for the rest of your life with Mario Cuomo or Larry tribe who were the front runners for the see. What would you choose and without missing a beat? He said Ruth Bitter Ginsburg. So I told that story I said her nomination would be the most acclaimed since Felix Frankfurter turned her down for courtship on the grounds that she wasn't the court wasn't ready for a woman. Now we are so the role of this piece was that thanks to Marty Ginsburg. And I didn't know about this campaign at the time. Daniel Patrick Moynihan was championing justice GINSBURG's nomination at a time when Edward Kennedy was championing Steven Briar from Boston. So Moynahan is talking to Clinton on Air Force. Just one and Clinton says who should I appoint and Moynahan as he tells me I asked him and he wrote about it had just read the piece and he said Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Clinton the women women are against her. That was Clinton's words and Moynihan said you've got to appoint her and then they were able to fax something comparing her to the Thurgood. Thurgood Marshall of the Women's movement and that brought her over the edge so she's appointed women's groups are against her both role and because they think she's too minimalist who conservative too cautious ashes. Not Enough of a crusader but then think about how prophetic she was. As Dalia said the claim that row inspired backlash that would energize the pro-life side and make a complacent the pro choice side. In a way that stayed what Justice Ginsburg said was a movement in favor of the liberalization of abortion. Laws seem right rogue came as she predicted to dominate our supreme court. Confirmation politics in a way. That blinded other issues like the future of the administrative state for example that it proved just as salient. And then there's the equality rationale and you have to if many of you are constitutional junkies all of you are in spirit because you're here but it's so remarkable that for twenty years. The brightest most brilliant legal minds in America tried to come up with an alternative rationale for road to Justice Blackman's privacy metaphor which was problematic. Both because the Constitution doesn't explicitly protect reproductive autonomy or privacy in that sense and also because it was paternalistic has justice Ginsburg said to conceive of abortion as a private choice between women and they're mostly male doctors and after twenty years of thinking the best. The most brilliant minds could come up with was just Ginsberg's claim that it's a violation not just of privacy but would have women's equality to impose burdens on women that are not imposed on men to prevent women and not men for making autonomous decisions about their life courses and careers and in that sense to violate violate the promise of equality enshrined in the Constitution. And when the court upheld Roe v Wade in Casey versus planned. Parenthood it invoked that equality rationale and now when Justice Ginsburg gave she. She doesn't miss a trick. She's a masterful chess player. WHO's thinking all this out? She she sent us at the Constitution Center. A signed copy of her brief in the struck case which was a case from the nineteen seventies where she represented a service woman who was seeking an abortion and was not able to get one because of military regulations of the time where Justice Ginsburg I articulated the claim that restrictions on abortion violate equality. The case this became moot because the army decided to to to settle it rather than risk losing so therefore. She never had a chance to litigated. But twenty years later i. She's sending us the brief and if we listened to her twenty five years ago. The rights of abortion would be much stronger constitutional grounds. Yeah well ray from the front row my wonderful book agent and he gave a big there. We go hi. This is dial with and I've got a quick message about a really important initiative. We are launching here at slate. It's called who counts over the next thirteen month month's sleep reporters and podcasters will be investigating who counts in the voting booth who counts as an American and whose money counts in the democratic process and also Who doesn't we will be telling the stories of Americans whose voices have been silenced whose votes have been diluted whose power has been clipped? And we need your help. Your slate plus membership will let us assign more stories traveled to Overlook Places Commission Special PODCAST project and pay for lots more reporting. We also want to hear from you. What should we cover share? What's happening in your communities by emailing us at who counts at slate dot COM to learn more about this vital vital project? And how you can support poured it please go to slate dot com slash. Who can't well? We're talking about women's issues she is. I think it's worth just jumping to the very end of the book one of the last conversations. You've captured in the book where you ask her about me too and I actually remember being at an event here where you asked her about me too. And she was as ever quite extraordinary about explaining it as a movement movement and not a moment and what what she'd sort of saw it beginning to change range into shift but there is a moment where you just straight up asked her in one of these very recent interviews. What is your advice to all women about about how to sustain the momentum of this movement and make changes lasting and this is what she says and I just want to quiz you on? Because it's another one of those. She's not hiding hiding the ball at all. She says exactly what she thinks. This is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I've heard from lawyers about women coming forward with reports of things that happened many years ago even though the statute of limitations is long past these cases are being settled. One interesting question is whether we will see an end to the confidentiality pledge women who complained complained and brought suit were offered settlements in which they would agree that they would never disclosed what they had complained about. I hope those agreements will not be enforced by the courts. It's so that's Ruth Bader Ginsburg just blowing up the NBA's and all of the requirements that have really and been used by powerful man to suppress me to stories and were you shocked that she just straight up set it. It's extraordinarily striking striking. She's completely ahead of the curve. As usual she understands the most technical issues far better than any of the rest of us since since are realizing the significance of that statement. I just begun to look into this and I gather there is an argument that nondisclosure agreements made under duress S. we're both parties don't have equal bargaining power could be unconscionable unenforceable but it's a completely cutting edge legal issue and she had she boldly you jumped right into it and said how she thinks that it will come out. It was remarkable. What else did you make her? There's a lot about me to in the Book Doc. And there's this incredible dramatic encounter between her and Margaret Atwood. So when I told justice going to bring that I wanted to collect our our conversations as a book she agreed to support the project and then she invited Lauren and me to spend the weekend with her at the glimmer glass opera in two thousand eighteen. And you can imagine that this was nirvana for both of us the combination of RPG opera the opera. It was great and at least west side story was was great. And then when we went to see Margaret Atwood who was giving a lecture on the three phases of feminism and me too and Margaret Atwood said that there had been three phases uses of feminism and this last one the metoo one she feared would provoke a backlash that it's changes would not be lasting and justice. This Kuenssberg says I think they will be because there's a critical mass. There's so many women in the workplace that we won't go back to the way we did and then they both discussed their joint concern. Learn for due process concerns for the accused as well as the accuser Margaret. Atwood had gotten into some controversy for having said that that was important and in the Book Justice Ginsburg criticizes the college codes. That don't have due process for the accused as well as the user because. She's a civil libertarian. At her core ever since she studied studied civil liberties during the McCarthy era at Cornell which really shaped her conception of the importance of due process she thinks that fairness for both sides is crucial. uh-huh actually proposes in the book impartial arbitration proceedings were universities would put these cases out to outside arbitrators who had have full due process process. So so I was just remarkably complex and it was so her tremendous support for the movement confidence that it would last believe that there remained and work to be done including rooting out unconscious bias. which would continue to lead to discrimination against women but shared concern for the accuser as as well as the accused? What did you make of all? Yeah it's leave it to Margaret Atwood and Ruth Bader Ginsburg to be sort of at the absolute zenith's of woke feminism and also both to be worried about the rights of the accuser. I mean it's an astonishing. Neither either of them are sort of believe all women fundamentalists. They are both so complicated. And I think it's such a useful lesson. Both of them coming. Get it from radically different places to arrive. At this moment where they both worry profoundly about the accuser. And I think it's fascinating at the same time. Every time justice GINSBURG talks about abortion in your various conversations. Her solicitude is always for the poor women and for the women who will not be able to pack up a suitcase and fly to Paris and go to a spa and terminate a pregnancy. And it's it's interesting because I think she has such a deep concern for women who are disempowered powered in a way that is maps onto so much of Atwood's writing and so much of the handmaid's tale so it is really interesting to me that they're both growth again talking on two axes certainly talking about this me too moment and the backlash may or may not produce but they're also also talking about power systems. That are self reinforcing and the ways in which we have to pay attention to that at all costs time. I'm in time again. She says there's never going to be a moment. In America where wealthy women will not be able to get abortion and again when you think back to the critiques. Critiques of her. That feminists were making in the eighties and nineties. Where they said you know? She's functionally just a lady who lunches she. She just speaks for rich privileged lawyer. She has no under. I mean that was the critique of her that she wasn't they wouldn't have used the word at the time but they she wasn't intersectional. They thought she was ridiculously privileged out of touch and yet here. She is at the other end of her career. She seems to be the person person who is most. I think vociferously articulating the proposition that we have two tiers of reproductive justice in this country. And why is she the person I keep saying. I'm learning so much from you on this. I want to ask where that we're you think that came from in her biography and just is to reinforce. Whenever I asked her about road she would always say it will make first of all she says repeatedly? I'm skeptically hopeful that it will not be overturned. As long as the balance of the court it remains as it is now with Chief Justice Roberts in the middle but she said even if it were rich woman would still be able to get abortions just as they are. Now there'd be no remember what happens everyone throws overturned. It's not like abortion become suddenly legal or illegal ever read just goes back to the states either restricted or allow it as they please so in blue states about protections remain unchanged and perhaps even expanded in red states already are almost no abortion clinics. And it's extremely only hard for poor women to get abortions now and raw returned and it were abandoned those states it would be even harder for poor women to Louis the state and go to a clinic where they could get an abortion. Women of means would still be able to do so. So that's why she's so focused on that and my question to you is. It's it's not from her her upbringing. And it's obviously not generational because not all women feel that. Where did that come from I? It's a great question and I the last year. The big big biography of justice. Ginsburg doesn't fully answer that question. I mean this is a child who grows up in tremendous privilege pledge. Every opportunity goes to great schools. Her you know in the manner of Jewish mothers everywhere. Her mother thinks she walks on water. You know she really really does. I think. Have every opportunity beyond anyone could've conceived of in her generation and doors are it essentially flung open at Harvard and Columbia. I mean even though she faced unbelievable discrimination based on gender in another sense she she had every opportunity and Jeff's question I think is really the most apt question which is how does she come to have such an absolutely kapit understanding for an empathy for people who are not privileged and that cuts through all her jurisprudence. That's shelby he county. That's her awareness of a world that I think perfectly frankly because she's been on the federal bench for so much of her life. These are not people. She's bumping into like at the Walmart in El Paso so yet. How is that possible? And I think that the root route of the Jeff the ebook answers it in a way that I hadn't thought about until I read it which is listening to her and I remember when you interviewed her here when she talks about Sharon frontier when she talks about these clients that she had in the seventies and immediately. She's telling telling you the entirety of their biography. She is so absolutely enmeshed in their lives. Their jobs their struggles she. She makes a point of telling Jeff in the book. These aren't clients that we cherry picked for the purposes of litigation. These were people who were working people who were struggling with horrific discrimination in whatever context they were and she remembers this encyclopaedic account of their lives. Lives and it answers for me this question. Which is I think her empathy which is hard to square with the affect of somebody who seems is at this point to just be a brain in a VAT and who is not like deeply emotional and never loses it and you know the emotional bandwidth and with is about this much and yet her patience empathy with people who are not like her I think is a signal quality? She's carried right through her life and it makes her very different. You know when you want to accuse justices of being elitist out of touch. I think her capacity to deeply deeply empathize with lives that are not like hers to imagine herself into someone else's shoes and it in some on ways I think is book ended by the entire beginning of her career. She has to talk to panels of all white male judges and and try to persuade them that even though they think she's super lucky to be taken care of and to not have to worry her pretty little head about jury duty duty or social security or money and she has to say to them. Okay start from the proposition. That I am the luckiest most pampered. A girl in the world but and then she jujitsu is largely. Bright bringing appeals on behalf of man but I think that in itself was Such an act of emotional empathy of imaginative connection to people who absolutely couldn't understand Dan but the her entire career has been an arc of translating lives. That cannot be understood to judiciary that is by definition. Not GonNa move while that is that is I told you Super Fan Rosebud. I think you kind of identified the central quality that I I hadn't realized was so central to who she is. And that's because it's hiding in plain sight as you say this is a woman who was criticized for not having having the big heart that Clinton wanted a big heart and Obama one of the big heart and she was considered the judges judge who was always focusing on the law but behind that particularism was the warmest and most acutely attentive empathy imaginable. So attentive that when she's reciting all the details also those cases she's living those indignities with those people she realizes that Stephen Weisenthal to can't get social security benefits because the law gives those benefits to Widows House but not widowers and therefore he can't be the sole caregiver for his son she gets to know Stephen Weisfeld and she not only wins the case but she stays in touch with them and she performs his second marriage and she marries his son Columbia and she's keeping in touch with Sharon frontier who she's GonNa to go see at the hundredth anniversary of the nineteen minute and so. My mom passed in January and Justice Ginsburg was recovering from cancer surgery. And I saw her for the first time it was her first outing after the surgery. Right after my mom died a week after my mom died she'd just come out of her surgery and the first thing she did was pass along a handwritten note expressing sympathy for my mom which I used as the dedication always thinking of breath others. What a I remember? I told you that. I think that her ability to master her ego and unproductive unproductive emotions who she can serve others is the embodiment of what the wisdom traditions councils. That's why she's a model of how to live. She's just constantly Salihi thinking of others paying attention to the small details of others lies and carefully. Conserving her energy and Precious Times Times that she can devote every bit of of of her time on earth to to serving broader ideals and to thoughtfully engaging with other people glenn that's the irony of the the woman hurt. Marty always used to say you know my wife be. People wrongly thinks that she's cold. She's not like that at all and they can could think because you know when you first meet her. She did what she did to me in the elevator. She's just silent. Just doesn't say anything. It's sort of like a Marshall and unless you have the the Good Fortune to stumble into the right topic this the sixty four dollars question. What do you like what happened to be the right question? You wouldn't get behind all that is just a constant concern for others. What a remarkable model of how to live and thank you for solving? Yeah well okay so we have some questions and I'm going to ask them and then you can either answer them or spike to me. It's the question that I think plays a lot of otherwise uh Stellwagen fans which is did she consider stepping down when Obama could've appointed a replacement. And why didn't she and why. Why are we in this pickle? The word pickle is not in the question. I am sure that we have a very well behaved audience so this a pretty kettle of fish. I asked her. You know whenever a time in Obama's second term when people were criticizing are for now retired and I said people are criticizing you for not stepping down. Why didn't you sit down? And she said what reason is there to believe that anyone better than I could have gotten through the Senate you know as it turned out given what happened a year later. That was not a not a crazy prediction. And so there we go. I will add my gloss to that. which is I think she really watched I? I flicked at this initially but I'll unpack it a little bit. Sandra Day O'connor essentially got forced off the court. Sandra Day O'Connor goes to justice rank west Chief Justice Rehnquist who has thyroid cancer and says to him. I'M GONNA go in a year to take care of my husband and A I'm going to go. Yeah I will go in a year. You go now and he says no you go now because I'm going to be fine. She leaves a year before she's ready by the way by the time she has left within a few months. Her husband has to be hospitalized soon within a short time after that doesn't recognize her anymore so she gets kind of pushed off the court and then of course Rehnquist's answer the answer for why we can't both go at the same time as we can't have two vacancies in the same summer that's unseemly which is true and then he dies almost immediately thereafter. So I think the story as I've heard it is that she felt that O'Connor was sort of a falling calling on her sword to take care of her husband but being forced off before it was time had a year passed. As she had anticipated she would have made a different choice. She could have been on the court for six seven more years and I think that that really affronted her. I think that it's it was sort of a feminist rebuke and. I think she took it very very seriously and I think she also felt that. Why is it that all these men? Dan have been on this court till they're ninety two ninety three ninety six and nobody says he should retire and so right or wrong I think she construed it as a gender attack and I'm not I'm not one hundred percent sure whether that is all legitimate but I think he was deeply felt. What can I ask you one other question that I really wanted to ask you? Yes and then I have one question for you in all right hello. There is a gorgeous answer here where I'm just GonNa read it and I may tear up because it's beautiful but Jeff Asks what it was like for her to perform her first same sex wedding. This is her answer. It's one more example of what what I see is the genius of our Constitution if I asked you the question who counted among we the people when our Constitution was new. Well not very many people. Certainly I wouldn't count certainly not people who were held in human bondage not even most men because you had to be a property owner so think of what our nation and our constitution would have have become over now well more than two centuries the idea of we the people has become more and more embrace of people who were once left out people who were once slaves women native Americans did not counting the beginning. Inclusiveness has come about as a result of constitutional amendments him and the case of the civil war three post-civil-war amendments and judicial interpretation. The idea was there from the beginning equality and yet you can read every page of your pocket constitution and you will not find in the original constitution the word equal or equality. Even though equality was a main theme of the Declaration of Independence pendants the word equal becomes a part of the Constitution in the fourteenth amendment so I see as the genius of our Constitution and of our society. How much more embraceth embraceth we have become? Then we were at the start. So if you're a conlon Dork that just raises. All the hairs is on your arm like it's such an exquisite articulation of something. That is the answer. I think to the cartoon versions of living constitutionalism realism. And my question. You can answer any question you want about that. There's a bit at the end where you ask her about that word embraces but I think I wanna I wanna ask you the question. She says that makes her an originalist. Jeff she says originalism and I wondered if you could talk about that for a minute. Well I I have to say. Thanks for reading quote and yes it just. It does ring goosebumps and it does sum up up what a liberal vision of the constitution would look like that was born at Seneca falls where euros of the women's rights movement wrote a declaration of Women's rights invoking the declaration of independence and insisting that natural rights of liberty of equal liberty and hearing all human and beings and for her in that beautiful paragraph for every word is well chosen to have talked about how the constitution has come to slowly. The embraced not only African Americans and women but then other excluded groups all fulfilling the promise of the declaration and that's a tie that back to the founding ending vision and to view it as a form of originalism is incredibly inspiring and the word I asked her about is embraceth. What a beautiful wonderful distinctive particular word and as I said to her? That's your word. That's not Thomas Jefferson anyone else. Embrace it I said. What did you mean gene by Abrasive? She means embracing she's her reply was embracing the left out. People not just grudgingly but with open open arms beautiful and that's and that's her vision and it's distinctive and that's what she's a hero that's why they were very few Supreme Court justices. There are many good ones that you know. There's some great ones but there are few who transform the meaning of the Constitution our understanding the Constitution Thurgood Marshall through his advocacy Brandeis Rian visiting the First Amendment. Get Justice Ginsburg by envisioning the constitution as more embraceth document. was I surprised that she called herself. Originally I was because I said you know there's originalism originalism and what's the alternative because you're not an originalist and she said no I am but I think the founders anticipated the constitution becoming evermore embrace it and it's striking justice kagan introducing justice. Scalia said. We're all originalists now in the sense that everyone thinks that the text original understanding matters to some degree the question is how do you translate the Constitution. In light of changes in society and Justice. GINSBURG's genius is to to see that increasing embrace it as stemming from the founders own vision so that the promise of the declaration which is thwarted in the original constitution resurrected acted by Lincoln at Gettysburg and in front of Independence Hall. And you know what we have to do for now friends for just a minute. The best part of this building. The reason we're here right. Now let us just have the privilege of inspiring ourselves by looking over there the room where it happened. The Room where the Declaration of Independence is drafted promises that all men created equal God promises toward in the Constitution. Lincoln stands in front of their eighteen. Sixty one and says I'd never had thought politically that didn't stem from the declaration. And then the promise of the declaration is codified in the post civil war minutes. Would you can see downstairs. But women are portrayed and because the women's hour has not come and the word male is inserted into the fourteenth amendment for the first time but then comes the promise of Women's equality in nineteen twenty in an anniversary. We're going to celebrate all next years starting in two thousand twenty of women's Equate yes. We're seeing a lot of a lot. That women are granted the right to vote and the constitution becomes more and more embraces and justice. GINSBURG is great Achievement is both enshrining that promise into the Constitution in her Virginia Military Institute opinion and also in challenging us to remember that the embracing of equality remains to be. He worked out and not all imposed by judges she remained. She's not a conventional something conventional about this genius. This great woman. She doesn't believe that judges edges should just enforce equality according to what they think that you know the philosophy requires she thinks it's ultimately up to us and that's why she's so inspired by a young women who are fighting state by state in state legislatures and in the political arena to get more embraceth vision of equality. Because she says this. Don't rely on Judges Dodge the question about the courts because it's such a big question but her answer would be. Don't rely on the courts. Social Change has never come primarily from the courts. The courts can nudge or put on small breaks or they can codify new understandings of equality after. They've been embraced by hi society as in the marriage equality decision or even in Brown v Board of Education but judges cannot lead and that's another remarkable thing about her. This great leader here. This heroic vision of quality as an advocate is so conscious of her role as a judge becomes more comfortable because of her our newfound voice and because of empathy but still never mistakes it to be primarily the role of the courts to fight for equality. She thinks that's the role of all of us. I'm GonNa take the I learned so much from you and I'm going to ask you the last question which is a version of the you know. What do you think her legacy is but in particular and among other things how does she fit into the fights for women's equality have women and has feminism caught up to her vision of equal treatment? Or is she you know. Has it moved onto another vision. She was she a prophet and insisting on that kind of equal treatment or is she just embraced by young women. Because they think she's such a boss but don't actually share her vision of equality and when you put order in the context of the greatest advocates for women's equality of our time and there are a handful of great heroes for every grade constitutional movement. How would you sum up her cross-regional legacy yeah? I think it's a great question. I think in a complicated way. She's both too early in too late You know in in much the same way when we talked about her vision of reproductive freedom that we are only just catching up to although for a long time a she was ahead of her time and I think in in a profound way she she has said when I've interviewed her that she worries agrees. That young women you know the kids don't have any understanding of what life was like what her life life was like what life was like pre row that we've become so harold bloom's word for it as belated that we can't even imagine a time. Where are there will be no abortion and I think she worries about those things that we have somehow and she she talks about it a little bit in that quote about winning road that you we spike the football? We say it's over and no one believes we can ever go back and I think she's anxious about that. I also think there's a through line in her her thinking it emerges so strongly in the book where she authentically believed that the marriage she and Marty had where did the cooking and she did the writing and he picked up the kids from school and she did the writing and you know He. He went to the meetings when the kids were bad ad and she did the writing he. I think. There's a lovely quote from Jane. Her daughter in the book where Jane Says You Know My my dad. Ed Cooks and my mother does the thinking right and that was. That's how she thought all of our marriage is we're going to look like bat by one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. We were all going to be in that marriage and clearly. That's not what happens when I've spoken to her about this. I think she still feels. Feels that the keystone here is going to be this kind of small granular domestic equality. That she thought she she posits it in different ways in terms of time time off work and maternity leave I mean she has programmatic definitions. I love it but I think she genuinely believed that we as a society would be much more equal in that sense that you know that lofty constitutional sense but also in the guys change the toilet paper roll. It's not hard and you know we're still on the air and so I think that there's a way in which she's always a bit shocked that that you know when you watch the jetsons and you're like wait. We're not flying lying around in the in the air. I think she's shocked that there's still such a massive disparity in just you know work a a organization and domestic organization and you know she talks about. How is it possible that there's parody and law schools and yet women are still not you know partners at law firms? So I think that's the part that shocks her and it's funny because it always circles back to. I think she just really believed leave. That we would come further than we are it that silly domestic level and I remember thanking her profoundly because I have said on more than one occasion. She raised my children because when my kids preschool teachers I would call every single time. They were badly behaved and I could quote Justice Ginsburg who went. Her son was badly behaved and they constantly called her. Never Never Mardi and at one point she sort of very very angrily said the child has a father and I actually Chiles said that to my son's preschool teacher. I don't have to be the only person you call but I think that even that happened with such a massive timestamped differential and yet still the world hasn't changed and even now I think more so than even she would have said five years ago. The space in which women are allowed to exist in and thrive publicly is contracting in front of our noses and so I think in Matt sent again she was both the profit but also kind of disappointed profit that we haven't done the work of organizing ourselves. According to this breath in her view just crystalline obvious. Definition of what quality would look like. Wow well I guess it's up to me is the host to. I'd say first of all. Thank you for taking the time to come here and for teaching the I need to finish the thanks which is for teaching me as much about as I could possibly. Ah for and let her shining spirit which you so. Beautifully identified of disciplined empathy inspire all of us to be better the people and better students of the Constitution. Thanks for coming and thank you so much. Thank you so that was me with Jeffrey. Free Rosen National Constitution Center president and host of the PODCAST. We the people in a conversation that was recorded earlier this month. In front of a live audience at the National Constitution Petition Center in Philadelphia. The National Constitution Center has another podcast. Live at America's townhall which shares the live constitutional conversations uh-huh hosted by the NCC. So if you enjoyed this conversation you can always check out more like that right there. The NCC's shows are available wherever wherever you get your podcasts. Today's show was produced by Sarah Birmingham with thanks to Jeffrey Rosen. Jackie McDermott and the National Constitution Center. Gabriel Roth is editorial director of sleep podcasts and June Thomas is senior managing producer of sleep. podcast thank you so much for listening now and always. I am thankful for you and for your mail. If you'd like to get in touch our email is amicus at slate dot com and you can always find us at facebook dot com slash amicus podcast. We'll be back with another episode of amicus in just over

Justice Ruth Bader GINSBURG Jeff Rosen Supreme Court Marty Ginsburg Justice Scalia Chief Justice Roberts justice GINSBURG justice O'Con Thurgood Marshall US Supreme Court Justice Justice Brandeis Justice Kennedy Justice O'Connor Lauren Ruth She Sandy US Court of Appeals Margaret Atwood National Constitution Center Chief Justice Rehnquist justice Stevens shelby county
Conversations with RBG

We The People

1:08:36 hr | 1 year ago

Conversations with RBG

"I'm Jeffrey Rosa President. CEO The National Constitution Center and welcome to we the peer weekly Chauve Constitutional Debate National Constitution Center is a nonpartisan. Nonprofit chartered by Congress to increase awareness and understanding of the constitution among the American people. Last night I was thrilled to launch at the National Constitution Center my new book conversations with our BG Ruth Bader or Ginsburg on life love liberty and law and it was such an honor to launch the book in conversation with the Great Dali Olympic doc host of the AMICUS podcast veteran supreme court reporter an old friend together Dalia and I discussed the sources of you've just as Ginsberg's greatness Dalia had an important inside about her shining empathy. I offered my own thoughts and together we discussed a personal and constitutional hero. So please enjoy my conversation with Dalia and please join us back here next week for another another weekly show of constitutional debate. Please join me in welcoming the Great Dolly Olympic the and without I have the pleasure of turnover too all right. Well thank you all for coming out. What this is this is kind of a groupie thing? Wherein Jeff Rosen and get to see? WHO's the bigger Ruth Bader GINSBURG groupie groupie and you get to watch? But that's essentially. It's just a pleasure to be here helping Jeff spread word about this really really beautiful book and so we're going to have a conversation talk about the the book and then we will take questions from you all about how much you love Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Jeff. I think I wanNA start at at the very beginning and just ask you to describe how you first got to know Ruth Bader Ginsburg so it was nineteen eighteen. Ninety one and I was a law clerk on the. US Court of Appeals for the DC circuit. And I was in an elevator. I I think I was going up and into the elevator steps. This austere very formidable woman in workout clothes. Those coming from a class called jazzercise and judge Ginsburg hadn't met had an ability to be incredibly intimidating. Even in her workout clothes and she was completely silent in the elevator. Now those who don't know our can mistake this silence for inaccessibility but it is kind of daunting to have kind of long elevator ride with the other person saying nothing so just in an effort to break the ice and because I couldn't think of anything else to say I just I asked her. What have you seen recently? I didn't even know she was an opera fan. But I am and I couldn't think of anything else to say as it happened and that was the right question to ask because she really loves opera as do I and we started talking about the operas. We've seen in the opposite. We were going to see and that started this magical sern deputies. Blessed Friendship That has lasted for twenty five years so so this book is essentially a collection action of conversations that Jeff and the justice had over the years on a variety of topics. And Trust me. When I tell you any one of these topics is something that you really do? Want to hear what the justice had to say. But I thought Jeff just is a framing question. I would just ask you this justice. Ginsburg always talks about the advice that her mother gave her as a young girl and at one level it sounds kind of trait at another level. I think it's very deep naturally inherently contradictory. She always says her mother told her to things. Always one being dependent to be a lady now bearing in mind that at the time B. Lady meant don't be independent it is a life that she is actually crafted in which she has managed to do both and you and I have had the conversation before about how often Of the rapper gangster you know oh killer. crusher are g that has emerged toward the end of her career somehow disturbs the part of her. That is a lady very much a lady and I wonder if you could just as a way of setting the table. Jeff talk a little bit about you. Describe her as a minimalist molest in the book you describe her as very small C conservative. We know that on the DC circuit. She agreed with Antonin. Scalia and Robert Bork as much which is she agreed with anyone and through the arc of this book. You actually trace that change so I wonder if you can just take us through the Ruth Bader Ginsburg. That was a lady was very careful. Very reserved still is to the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of today. Who by the way? I have the tote bag. So that's such a great question because it encapsulates both the essence of what makes her such the remarkable model and hero personally an constitutionally. And you're right that those injunctions from her mother and the fact that she tells it shows how no significant is to her might seem to be intention. How can you be a lady and be independent? I asked her about this during our last interview in July. And I say your mother often told you to be a lady to be independent pendant. Yes she said by that. I gather she meant overcome unproductive emotions like Nick Anger and jealousy is that right. Yes she said. That's the advice of the great wisdom traditions. Yes but it's very hard to achieve in practice absolutely Louis and then I said so. How do you actually do it? And she said Lauren. My wonderful wife has just arrived sir. You're SITA's right there. It's good that you've come just at the right moment darling. Because we're talking about rb. Jesus advice from her mother always to be a lady and to be independent so I sent now so I said how do you actually we achieve it. And she said because I realized that if I don't overcome unproductive emotions I'll lose precious time for useful work and it's that extraordinary self mastery. That is the advice of the great wisdom traditions of the Bible and the Bugaboo Guitar and the Buddhist traditions to set aside your ego so that you can focus on achieving your True Path and serving others that she lives more more successfully than any human being I've ever encountered and it was in the course of writing this book that I saw it in action. She agreed the project. We began to collect interviews. I sent her the manuscript last January or so and then of course she was ill and UH I didn't want to disturb her and didn't know it was going to happen in June twenty-seventh ten minutes after the Supreme Court term ended. I got an email from her saying saying. I've edited your manuscript and we'll give it to you on Tuesday and I was completely stunned. Both the to think of such thing a little bit partisan gerrymandering has just has been upheld and the senses struck down and she's focused on her deadline. I came in. I said I'm stunned that you did this. How did you find time to do this while I did it? In the back of cars ars and when I was at the movies and stuff like that and every single page of the manuscript was marked up in her beautiful penciled script with both commas Hamas and Typos and Paul Gallup spectacular editor is here as well and I would like around him because I am grateful to him and Paul is a really great it copy editor and Lauren read it really too but of course all of us missed typos and stuff that RPG catches her attention to detail is so much greater than any other human beings things and she would change individual words. And isn't that beautiful pencil. Every pages worked up and just the image I have to share with you and all of your friends ends of this great lady with all the burdens of the country on her shoulders with these terrible health challenges that are afflicting her setting setting aside her physical pain so that she can focus on all of her work. Obviously this was just one small project in the middle of everything that she was doing. And always believing that the work overcoming your ego not getting distracted maintaining the focus because it was so urgently important to continue to spread the light hurt ability the actually achieved that inspires me every single day. And we learn I talk about it all the time you knew you wake up. And there's the choice. Am I going to start surfing or reading and learning and I think ww are Biju and you read and you learn and you right so it's just a model of how to live so I think that's what her mother really meant. She was not raised as an observant Jew. She's embraces her Jewish identity so I don't know that she title to the Talmudic tradition but be be independent and be lady. Don't lose your temper. When people are demeaning you with sexist epithets epithets at a time when the epithets were appalling never get rattled when judges male chauvinist judges are demeaning? You with as you know calling him this Ginsburg. And now we know Harry Blackmun notes sort of insulting insulting her as well. Never losing your focus. Why Astor because I wanted to win my case you know so? That's so it applies to men to it'd be a gentleman in the sense of be controlled be achieved self mastery as aristotle talked about it so that you can achieve true well-being by serving serving others and that's why I think the two are not intention with each other to be a lady is by definition to be independent because you're a free ego based emotions. You're not when justice. Scalia saying saying things like your opinion cannot be taken seriously as he did a Justice O'Conner justice Ginsburg stressed. I never responded in kind. I love him but he drives me crazy easy. She said and she and when people are losing their temper all around you. You don't lose yours so that's what I think it means personally. Now I'll stop and we can take another other beat about how to frame how that played out professionally. But I'm very glad you noted that central part of her character might my corollary to jeff story story. Is that when her nephew. Who was her husband Marty's nephew who wrote the screenplay for the big bio-pic that came out the last year and it took him years to write it and he called and said I love free to have a look at this thinking that that she'd give it the Hollywood read you know she just blow through it and a day later send him notes and she's apparently said to him same deal she received it? He'd worked on it for years and she said page one line one. She's he send this on my podcast. He said it took days to go through her notes because she was absolutely ferocious that he get the story right it and more than anything. She really wanted him to get Marty right. The character of Marty right because as jeff notes that was a love story for the ages ages and she would not allow him to sort of fudge any of that. But it goes to this underneath this. Almost myopic topic cartoonish precision. There is such a lofty fence of responsibility to get the story right. Can't tell one one more editing story. Lauren and I were married by her in her chambers and she said send me the proposed scripted. He'd like to read and hear a couple of samples that I've used before so we had it in kind of forgot about it. We had our remind another things at you. Know her assistant. Rodents the justice would like your edits by a four pm tomorrow once again. We forgot about three PM just waiting for your script. So and this is the middle of the Supreme Court term. You know she's got other stuff to do so we sent in the proposed vows and use the language that she had used in previous ceremonies which ended with Geoffrey. You may kiss the bribe. So do we sent it in at three thirty at about four thirty the marked up track changes in word. Come back and she's crossed out Jeffrey. After you may kiss the bride and replace it with Jeffrey Lauren. Humane brace each other for the first. Kiss your marriage absolutely and not not only is it an awe but think about it because she's given the traditional bow scores of times maybe hundreds of times. But she's so careful and so I thoughtful that it suddenly occurred to broaden it and to make it a gala -Tarian and to take the time to do this in the middle of everything else athletes granary but but it does raise the question question. How this great judge who on the DC circuit and when she started off at the Supreme Court was viewed as a very particular as the judge would definitely pay close? Attention to word. Choices are and was a judge's judge in a minimalist was very keen on narrow opinions that wouldn't don't dramatically disturb legislative choices became the most galvanizing and crusading advocate of the liberalism of our time. And I asked her about it and she insisted Jeff I didn't change the court change. She said when Justice O'Connor retired in two thousand six the car. That's a move to the right. And then she also stressed that when she became came the senior. Associate Justice for the it wasn't it wasn't six Roberts was appointed around. Ah when Justice O'Conner retard the court shifted and Justice Ginsburg Justice Stevens retired becomes the senior associate justice now here Justice Ginsburg stressed understanding a little bit about the procedure of how the Supreme Court operates is important when the justice here cases and then they go around the table and vote Eh if the chief justice in the majority if he's one of the five he can either right the decision himself or assign it to the judge who best reflects his views if he's in the minority already than the senior associate justice in the majority can be shadow chief and cheer. He writes the decision assigned to the justice. Who Best reflects her views? When justice Stevens retired Justice Ginsburg becomes the senior associate justice all of a sudden? She thinks her role changes far from being. The minimalist always crafting narrow opinions. She thinks is important for the liberals to speak in one voice so she starts writing the main descents and it was in two thousand and thirteen. She writes her shelby county descent. which inspires the Tumbler? Humbler blog the notorious RV which goes viral and. She writes the majority opinions when she has the opportunity to do that. So that's her her explanation that it was really just a change in role in the composition of the court. Not In her Batali. I have to ask you this because you've thought is deeply about this as I have. Do you buy that explanation or do you think I think that she actually did change. Okay first of all it was two thousand five hundred one paragraph to she would have known that spirit of later Ginsburg goes six. Who's counting precision So you know it's interesting. Jeffrey counts in the book. A case case that happens when our. BG is on the bench alone. Her whole career. She's one of two and she was actually pretty scrupulous about about things. You know. Gender doesn't matter that much you know they. She and Justice O'Conner Jeff talks about this to every single year that the two of them sat together at some point and oral advocate would call justice GINSBURG justice O'Connor and Justice O'Conner Justice Ginsburg. It happened every single term so much so that the National National Women's law center had t shirts made for them. That said I'm Sandy. She's Ruth I'm ruth. She's Sandy. It was like a joke but also I think that in that period which is sort of the beginning of my watching them. It seemed that she was much less anxious because she wasn't the only and she was very aware air that she wasn't the only that the sort of trail-blazing had been done by Justice O'Connor and then when O'Connor left in two thousand and five to take care of her ailing husband which is by the way a whole other feminist story because it was really thing that the male justices would not have done and she felt so o'connor steps down to take care of her husband and suddenly just Ginsburg is the only which is a long way of saying that in two thousand nine when the court argues a case about a little girl in middle school who's been stripped searched for for. Contraband Ibuprofen she's apparently running. An ibuprofen ring at her middle and she's very very in really personal way searched by school administrators. Who Do not call her parents and give her no option and the oral argument in that case I remember sitting in the room and the oral argument was this kind of WHO's on first? Everybody was making jokes. Justice Justice Scalia was joking about whether they searched from the outside in or the inside. Out and Chief Justice Roberts was making jokes and then pour justice briar. Who Just Jeffrey Jeffrey Council? This in the book cannot help himself. But make a bad situation worse Start saying things about when I was in high school. Changing for gym people would stick things in my underwear and of course everybody at this point is doubled doubled over laughing and Justice Ginsburg who never loses her cool because her mom is playing being in her ears saying never lose your cool actually gets very angry and she sort of tunes up her colleagues from the bench and says this is nothing like changing aging for gym class and she describes how this child was humiliated a while the Strip search was going on and then interestingly by the way ah she gives an interview while the cases pending where she says to Joan Biskupic. I can't believe that I'm the only woman on the bench who thought that was appalling. Calling and if there were more women on the bench it would not have been like that and then she said which is fighting words for our BG. I don't think the men ENJ- share my sensitivities on this and by the way as Jeff also points out by the time the case comes down. All the judges is with two exceptions mostly have conformed entirely to her vision of this is an inappropriate search but it was her wielding a kind of soft power and I had never seen her do it until then and watching the Ark of that story by the way as that was happening suddenly certainly is being looked at as a replacement it felt as though she kind of kicked into some kind of gear. She she was very much. I think offended by being the only. She was offended by that kind of the way that went down in the Stafford case and I think she felt as though just gently by chiding her colleagues wanted a constitutional outcome. That was not what looked. Like what's going to happen from oral argument and I think that to me is when I- carbon date how she started to change and men you know as you say hobby lobby comes. She certainly went after justice. Kennedy in the so-called partial birth abortion case for what she thought of a very paternalistic writing. But I think that it wasn't. I think that the almost accesses wrong. It's not the changed or the court changed. I think she realized she had a really singular role she could play and she was very deft and subtle about playing it. Initially Ashley and I think it started to feel comfortable to her. She really really by hobby lobby and by Gonzales and the other cases that came along I think she embraced it. You knew that so convincing and that is really a powerful count out and saying that she felt comfortable in the role seems right to remember. Of course she was an advocate and she calls herself in the book back in the days when I was flaming feminist. I had these goals but I had to win my kicks. And that's why she was always so strategic she chose to represent men who who'd been disadvantaged by paternalistic laws favouring women and she always moved incrementally like Thurgood Marshall and her briefs were written in this very particular way away constantly citing precedent. She was just so strategic but always. She's passionate. She is the most important advocate of gender equality of our time and in American and history. Now so I think that you're right that once. She realized that she had a distinctive will to play as you said outraged by the fact that her male colleagues weren't getting it she could find her voice and the writing changes to the IT really decisions quote other judges all the time as judge Posner said or as the court said in this case they're full of citations and every census footnoted suddenly after two thousand thirteen or so. She's coming up with these great metaphors. Like just because it's Sir not you're not getting wet doesn't mean that you throw away your umbrella and she writes like a dream and she writes in a really galvanizing way and then young women and other citizens are galvanized responding star. Quoting her so she she's just free up. She's liberated to say what she thinks and what she thinks she does. It's not like what's going on constitutionally at the court and I asked her what are the decisions that you would most like to see overturned. And she didn't miss a beat she. It's unusual for a sitting justice to say this was the first on the list could be citizens united. That was an outrage. I'm just describing you. You can clap on a nonpartisan basis. There was nothing nonpartisan about her list because the next case was the healthcare case which after all came out for just for President Obama but justice. GINSBURG was outraged. By chief. Justice Roberts is separate opinion which broadly construed the Commerce uh which narrowly construed the commerce clause in ways that she thought would armed government regulation in the future. The next on her list is the Shelby County case. The voting rights case and the final one is Carl Hart and that was so interesting to there was A. I wrote an article around the time that card down saying Justice Kennedy votes with liberal justices his in the marriage equality and abortion cases and she wrote a letter out of the Blue Sang. You might be right about upholding Roe in Casey but what about car heart and what about Stemberg and what about those paternalistic stereotypes and she was. She was offended by the notion. That these meek women had to be protected from regretting their own and she said so it was. I think you're you're right finding your voice feeling comfortable and then suddenly all the roles come together and you realized what it's like to have the the Thurgood Marshall of the Women's movement now we can call Thurgood Marshall the Ruth Bader Ginsburg for african-americans. Because because this is just just a constitutional hero founder boys so this leads me to one of the things that that you explore in the book is and we forget. Forget this because again this time in her history that we've alighted but when she was first tapped for the US Supreme Court the Truth so the matter is women's groups did not want her. They were strongly opposed to her. One of the funny Kotas to this story is that it was Marty League Ginsburg working the refs who managed to get and Jeff frozen by the way who writes a piece in the new republic that bounces her to the top of the list but the women's movement was really really suspicious of her and we've forgotten that piece of history and one of the things that's interesting is noxious watches again. She didn't change. She actually had a fairly consistent criticism of road that she had elucidated at the time that people took very much I think a myth and it continues to be to this day her criticism of row. So I just want to read to you. What that she said when Jeff asked her in one of the interviews Y ro was wrong and then just think about the fact that at one point that was so so inflammatory? That women didn't want her confirmed. Now it seems that Oh she might have been on the right track and we failed to catch it. This is what she said at the time of Roe V. Wade this issue was all over the state legislatures. Sometimes the choice people one. Sometimes they lost they were out there organizing and getting political experience. The Supreme Court decision made every line the country even the most liberal unconstitutional in one fell swoop. The people who prevailed said how great we're done we've got it all. The Supreme Cream court gave it to us what happened up position mounted instead of fighting in the trenches state by state to retain restrictive abortion laws. There was one one clear target to aim at the unelected justices of the Supreme Court. This is a decision that should be made. So the argument went by the People's elected representatives and not nine at the time time old man so embedded in here. There's a few criticisms I think many of which have been borne out by history one. Is that the move. In opposition to Roe WPRO becomes the single most powerful and effective movement in the country. That attacks on the unelected judiciary becomes salient and organizing and then her third critique which is not in this quote is that she would have always located reproductive rights breath not in the due process clauses the privacy clauses not in the rights that she scoffs at in row between a doctor and a woman but but in the equal protection clauses that women cannot function as economic equals in a society where they can't control their reproductive rights in many ways. Each of as those critiques pretty prophetic. But it's amazing that she went from being somebody that the feminist movement at that time in the early nineties found found way too conservative. And now here she is. She seems to have been ahead of her time. You sum that up so perfectly. And it's a remarkable example in prophetic. Exactly the right word in that sense. She's like our mutual hero justice GINSBURG in mind. And I bet you're as to justice Brandeis Susan judicial profit so just to unpack some of the great stuff that Dia said. Isn't it amazing at the time. Women's groups opposed a poster. It's impossible to imagine now and yes. I had just fallen after the luck of meeting her. In the elevator my first job out of clerking was to be the young highly overconfident legal affairs editor of the New Republic magazine and there was the Supreme Court seat and I took it upon myself to make a list ranking taking the candidates and put her at the top of the list saying that her criticisms of Ro were prescient and she was respected by Liberals and Conservatives and I know that I've gone to a lunch with the law clerks at the. US Court of Appeals and two weeks earlier justice. Scalia had been there and he was asked if you had to be trapped on an the desert island for the rest of your life with Mario Cuomo or Larry tribe who the front runners for the scene. What would you choose and without missing a beat? He said Ruth Bader GINSBURG. So I told that story I said her nomination would be the most claims since Felix Frankfurter who turned down for clerkship on the grounds that she wasn't the court wasn't ready. See for a woman. Now we are so the role of this piece was that Thanks to Marty GINSBURG and I didn't know about this campaign. At the time Daniel Patrick Moynihan China was championing Justice Ginsberg's nomination at a time when Edward Kennedy was championing Steven Briar from Boston. So Moynahan is talking to Clinton on Air Force One and Clinton says who should I appoint and Moynahan as he tells me I asked him and wrote about. It had just read the piece and he said Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Clinton said the women are against her. That was Clinton's words and Moynihan said you've got to a pointer and then they were able to fax something comparing to the Thurgood Marshall the women's movement and that broader over the edge so she's appointed the women's groups are against her both because a row because they think she's too minimalist who conservative too. Cautious is not enough of a crusader but then think about how prophetic she was. Dalia said the claim that row inspired a backlash that would energize the pro-life side and make a complacent the pro choice side. In a way that stayed what Justice Ginsburg said was a movement in favor of the liberalization of abortion laws seem right row came as she predicted to dominate our supreme court confirmation politics in a way that blinded people to other issues like the future of the administrative state for example people that have proved just as salient. And then there's the equality rationale and you have to many of you are constitutional junkies. All of you are in spirit because you're here but it's so remarkable that for twenty years. The brightest most brilliant legal minds in America tried to come up with an alternative rationale for road to justice. Blackman's AH privacy metaphor which was problematic. Both because the Constitution doesn't explicitly protect reproductive autonomy or privacy in that sense and also because it was paternalistic as Justice Kuenssberg sent to conceive of abortion as private choice between women and they're mostly male doctors and after twenty years of thinking the best of the most brilliant minds it could come up with was justice. Ginsberg's claim that it's a violation. Not just of privacy but what a women's equality to impose burdens on women that are not imposed on men to prevent women and not men for making autonomous decisions about their life courses and careers and in that sense to violate the promise of equality enshrined in the Constitution. And when the court upheld Roy v Wade in Casey versus planned. Parenthood it invoked that equality rationale and now now when justice. Ginsburg gave she she. She doesn't miss a trick. She's a masterful chess player. WHO's thinking all this out? She sent US Constitution Centre a signed copy of her brief in the struck case which was a case from one thousand nine hundred seventy S. She represented a service woman who was seeking an and abortion and was not able to get one because of military regulations at the time. Where Justice GINSBURG? I claim that restrictions on abortion violated quality the case became moot because the army decided to to to settle it rather than risk losing so therefore she never had a chance to litigated but twenty years later she's Sending us the brief and if we listen to earn twenty five years ago the rights of abortion would be much stronger constitutional grounds. Oh Yeah well ray from the front row my wonderful book agent and the big there we go. Let's well L.. We're well. We're talking about women's issues. I think it's worth just jumping to the very end of the book one of the last conversations You've captured in the book. Where you ask her about me too and I actually remember being at an event here where you asked her about me too and She was as ever quite extraordinary about explaining it as a movement and not a moment and what what she'd sort of saw saw it beginning to change into shift but there is a moment where you just straight up. Ask her her in one of these very recent interviews. What is your advice to all women about how to sustain the momentum of this movement and make its changes lasting and this is what she says is and I just want to quiz you on because it's another one of those? She's not hiding the ball at all. She says exactly what she thinks. This is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I've heard from I'm lawyers about women coming forward with reports of things that happened many years ago even though the statute of limitations is long past these cases are being settled. One interesting question is is whether we will see an end to the confidentiality pledge women who complained and brought suit were offered settlements in which they would agree that they would never disclose what update complained about. I hope those agreements will not be enforced by the courts. So that's Ruth Bader Ginsburg just blowing up the NBA's then all of the of the requirements. That have really. I think been used by powerful man to suppress me to stories. And were you shocked doc that she just straight up said it. It's extraordinarily striking. She's completely ahead of the curve. As usual she understands the the most technical issues far better than any of the rest of us since are realizing the significance of that statement. I just begun to look into this. And I gather there is and argument that nondisclosure agreements made under duress we're both parties don't have equal bargaining power could be unconscionable and unforgetable but it's a completely clearly cutting edge legal issue and she had she boldly jumped right into it and said she thinks that it will come out. It was remarkable. What else did you make of her? There's a lot about me to in the book. And there's this incredible dramatic encounter between her and Margaret Abbott. So when I told justice going to break that I wanted to collect our conversations as a book she agreed to support the project and then she invited Lauren and me to spend the weekend with her at the glass opera in two thousand eighteen. You can imagine that this was nirvana for both of us the combination of RPG and opera and the opera. It was great and all these story was was great. And then We went to see Margaret Atwood. who was giving a lecture on the three phases of feminism and metoo two and Margaret Atwood said that there have been three phases of feminism? And this last one to one she feared would to provoke backlash and that its changes would not be lasting and justice. GINSBURG says I think they will be. Because there's a critical mass. There's so many women in the workplace that we won't go back to the way we did and then they both discussed their joint concern for due process concerns for the accused as well as the accuser Margaret. Atwood had gotten into some controversy for having said that that was important in the Book Justice Ginsburg criticizes the College Codes. That don't have due process for the accused as well as the accuser. Because she's a civil libertarian. At her core ever since she studied civil liberties during the McCarthy era at Cornell which really shaped her conception of the importance accordance of due process she thinks that fairness from both sides is crucial and she actually proposes in the book impartial arbitration proceedings. Were universities would Put these cases to outside arbitrators who would have full due process so remarkably complex. It was so her tremendous support for the movement in confidence that it would last belief that there remained work to be done including rooting out unconscious bias. which would continue to lead to discrimination discrimination against women but shared concern for the accuser as well as the accused? What do you make of all that? Yeah it's it's leave it to Margaret Atwood and Ruth Batur Ginsburg to be sort of at the absolute zenith of woke feminism and also both to to be worried about the rights of the accuser. I mean it's an astonishing. Neither of them are sort of believe. All women fundamentalists. They are both so complicated. I and I think it's such a useful lesson. Both of them coming at it from radically different places to arrive at this moment where they both with worry profoundly about the accuser. And I think it's fascinating at the same time. Every time justice GINSBURG talks about abortion in in your various conversations. Her solicitude is always for the poor women and for the women who will not be able to pack up a suitcase and fly fly to Paris and go to a spa and terminate a pregnancy. And it's interesting because I think she has such a deep concern one for women who are disempowered in a way that is maps onto so much of Atwood's writing and so much of the handmaid's tale so it is really interesting to me that they're both again talking on two axes. They're certainly talking about this metoo moment a and the backlash it may or may not produce. But they're also talking about power systems. That are self reinforcing and the ways in which we have to pay attention to that at all costs. I mean time and time again. She says there's never going to be a moment. In America where wealthy women will not be able to get abortion and again when you think back to the critiques of her that feminists were making in the eighties and nineties. Where they said Eh? She's functionally just a lady who lunches so she. She just speaks for rich privileged lawyer. She has no under. I mean that was the critique of her her that she wasn't they wouldn't have used the word at the time but they she wasn't intersectional. They thought she was ridiculously privileged out of touch and yet here. She is at the other end of her career. She seems to be the person who is most vociferously articulating the proposition that we have two tiers cheers of reproductive justice in this country. And why is she the person who has to keep saying it. I'm learning so much from you on this. I want to ask where word that we're using. That came from her biography. You know it's such a good. You WanNa give me these too many questions. You guys are not gonNA ask us. Ask them any questions. I also have a question that I want to talk faster than just just reinforce whenever I asked her about road oh she would always say it will make first of all she says. Repeatedly I'm skeptically hopeful that it will not be overturned as long as the balance of the court remains as it is now with Chief Justice Roberts Roberts in the middle but she said even if it were rich women would still be able to get abortions just as they are. Now there'd be no remember what happens everyone if rose overturned and it's not like abortion become suddenly legal or illegal everywhere just goes back to the states either to restricted or allow it as they pleased so in blue states about protections remain unchanged and perhaps even expanded in red states there already are almost no abortion clinics and it's extremely hard for poor women to get abortions now l. and roar returned and it were banned in those states. It would be even harder for poor women to leave the state and go to a clinic where they again abortion women means would still be able to do so. So that's why she's so focused on that and my question to you is. It's it's not from her upbringing. And it's obviously recent generational because not all women feel that. Where did that come I? It's a great question and I the last you know the big big biography geography of justice. Ginsburg doesn't fully answer that question. I mean this is a child who grows up in tremendous privilege has every opportunity. Virginity goes to great schools. Her in the manner of Jewish mothers everywhere. Her mother thinks she walks on water. You know she really does. I think. Have every every opportunity beyond anyone could have conceived of in her generation and doors are essentially flung open at Harvard avert in Colombia. I mean even though she faced unbelievable discrimination based on gender in another sense she had every opportunity. And so Jeff's question I think is really the most apt question which is how does she come to have such an absolutely ca patience understanding standing for an empathy for people who are not privileged and that cuts through all her jurisprudence. That's Shelby County. That's I mean her awareness awareness of a world that I think perfectly frankly because she's been on the federal bench for so much of her life. These are not people. She's she's bumping into the Walmart El Paso so yet. How is that possible and I think that the root of the for me Jeff? The ebook answers. Thor's it in a way that I hadn't thought about until I read it. Which is listening to her? And I remember when you interviewed her here when she talks about Sharon Frontier Antero when she talks about these clients that she had in the seven. These and immediately she's telling you the entirety of are there biography. She is so absolutely enmeshed in their lives their jobs their struggles. She makes a point of telling Jeff in the A book. These aren't clients that we cherry picked for the purposes of litigation. These are people who were working people who were struggling with horrific discrimination discrimination in whatever context they were and she remembers this encyclopedia account of their lives. And it answers for me. This question Shen. Which is I? Think her empathy which is hard to square the affect of somebody who seems at this point to just be a brain in a VAT VAT and who is not like deeply emotional and never loses it and the emotional bandwidth is about this much and yet her patience empathy with people who are not like her I think is a signal quality. She's carried through her life and it makes aches are very different. You know when you want to accuse justices of being elitist and out of touch. I think her capacity to deeply. I'm deeply empathize with lives. That are not like hers to imagine herself into someone else's shoes and in some ways I think is book ended by the entire beginning of her career. She has to talk to panels of all white male judges and try to persuade them that even though they think she's super lucky to be taken care of and to not have to worry her pretty little head about jury duty or social security or money money and she has to say to them. Okay start from the proposition. That I am the luckiest most pampered girl in the world. But and then she. Jujitsu largely bringing appeals on behalf of man but I think that in itself was such an act of emotional emotional empathy of imaginative connection to people who absolutely couldn't understand but I think that her entire entire career has been an arc of translating lives. That cannot be understood to a judiciary that is by definition. Not GonNA move. Uh well that is that. Is Toby Superfan. No you're making a Super Rosebud. I think you kind of identified the central quality that I hadn't realized was so central to who she he is. And that's because it's hiding in plain sight as you say this is a woman who was criticized for not having the big heart that Clinton wanted ended a big heart and Obama wanted a big heart and she was considered the judges judge who was always focusing on the law but behind that particularism was the warmest and most most acutely attentive empathy imaginable. So attentive. That when she's reciting all the details of those cases she's living. Those indignities indies with those people. She realizes that Stephen Weisfeld who can't get social security benefits because the law gives those benefits to widows but not widowers and therefore. He can't happy the sole caregiver for his son. She gets to know Stephen Wise unfold. And she's not only wins the case but she stays in touch with them and she performs his Second Marriage and she marries his son at Columbia and she's keeping in touch with Sharon frontier. She's going to go see at the hundredth anniversary of the thank. You and so. My mom passed in January and justice. GINSBURG was recovering from her a Cancer Surgery and I saw her for the first time. It was her first outing after the surgery in in the end of the December. You're Dan of January right. After my mom died a week after my mom. She just come out of her surgery and the first thing she did was pass along a handwritten note expressing oppressing sympathy for my mom which I used as the dedication always thinking of others. What I remember I told you that? I think that her ability to master her ego and unproductive emotions so she can serve others is the embodiment of what the wisdom traditions counsels. That's why she's a model of how to live. She's just constantly thinking others paying attention to the small details of others lives and carefully. Conserving her energy and precious times that she can devote every bit of of her time on earth with two two two serving broader ideals and to thoughtfully engaging with other people and that's the irony of the the woman hurt. Marty always used to say you know my wife. PEOP- people wrongly thinks that she's a cold fish. She's not like that at all and they think that because you know when you first meet her she did what she did to me in the elevator. She's just the silent to just doesn't say anything. It's sort of like a like a Marshall and unless you have the Good Fortune to stumble into the right topic this the sixty four thousand dollar question what operas do you happen to be the question. You wouldn't get behind all that is just constant concern for others. What a remarkable model of how how to live and thank you for so yeah well okay so we have some questions and I'm going to ask them and then you can either answer them or spike to me but the question is what is the future of the Supreme Court as it moves to the right especially if Donald Trump is able to make more nomination Asia? You know we we can do that and Dahlia's great on this and but let's do another town hall on. Okay let's let's stick RPG because we have this rare opportunity really to eliminate her. So that I want to hear more about I'll ask Cuba other. RPG related question which you also may may want to leave for another another day. But the question that I think plays a lot of other ways stalwart fans which is did she consider sitter stepping down when Obama could have appointed a replacement. And why didn't she. And why are we in this pickle. The word pickle is not in the question. I'm sure that we have a very well behaved audience so this is a pretty kettle of fish. Someone said I asked her. Are you know. Whenever the time a Obama's second term when people criticizing for not retired I said people are criticizing you for not stepping down? Why didn't you sit down? And she said what reasons to believe that anyone better than I could have gotten through the Senate and it turned out given what happened a year later. That was not a not a crazy prediction. So there we go. I will add my glass lost to that. which is I think she really watched? I flicked at this initially. But I'll unpack it. A little bit. Sandra Day O'connor essentially got forced off the court. Sandra Day O'Connor goes to justice. Rehnquist Chief Justice Rehnquist who has thyroid cancer her and says to him. I'M GONNA go in a year to take care of my husband and I'm going to go. Yeah I we'll go in a year. You go now and he says no you go now because I'm GONNA be fine. She leaves a year before she's ready by the way by the time she has left within a few months. Her husband has to be hospitalized in within short time after that doesn't recognize ignites her anymore so she gets kind of pushed off the court and then of course Rehnquist's answer for why we can't both go at the same time as we can't can't have two vacancies in the same summer that's unseemly which is true and then he dies almost immediately thereafter. So I think the the story as I've heard it is that she felt that O'Connor was sort of falling on her sword to take care of her husband but being forced forced off before it was time had a year passed. As she had anticipated she would have made a different choice. She could have been on the court for six six seven more years and I think that that really affronted her. I think that was a sort of a feminist rebuke and and I think she took it very very seriously and I think she also felt that. Why is it that all these men have been on this Court Tiller Ninety two and ninety three ninety six six and nobody says he should retire? And so right or wrong. I think she construed it as a gendered attack and I'm not not one hundred percent sure whether that is all legitimate but I think he was deeply felt. Can I ask you one other question. What is that I really wanted to ask you? I have one question for you for. There's a gorgeous answer here her where I'm just GonNa read it and I may tear up because it's beautiful but jeff asks what it was like for her to perform her first same sex wedding. This is her answer. It's one more example of what I see is the genius of our Constitution if I asked you the question who counted among we the people when our Constitution was new well not very many people. Certainly I wouldn't count certainly not people who were held in human bondage not even most men because you had to be a property owner so think of what our nation and our constitution would have become over now. Aw well more than two centuries the idea of we the people has become more and more embrace of people who were once left out people who were once slaves women. Native Native Americans did not count in the beginning. Inclusiveness has come about as a result of constitutional amendments in the case of the civil war. Three Post civil war amendments and judicial interpretation. The idea was there from the beginning equality and yet you can read every page of your pocket constitution than you will not find. In the original constitution the word equal or equality even though equality was a main theme of the Declaration of independence the word equal becomes a part of the Constitution in the fourteenth amendment. So I see as the genius of our Constitution and our society how much more abrasive we have become. Then we were at the start. You're so if you're a conlon Dork that raises all the hairs on your arm. It's such an exquisite articulation particularly of something. That is the answer I think to the cartoon versions of living constitutionalism and my question. You can answer any question question you want about that. There's a bit at the end where you ask her about that word embraces but I think I want to ask you the question. She says that makes her an originalist originalist. Jeff she says this is originalism and I wondered if you could talk about that for a minute. We'll I I have to say. Thanks for reading. have quote and yes it just does bring goosebumps and it does sum up. What a liberal vision of the Constitution and would look like that was born at Seneca falls where a euros of the women's rights movement wrote a declaration of Women's rights invoking cooking the declaration of independence and insisting that natural rights of liberty of equal liberty and hearing all human beings and for her in that beautiful paragraph for every word is well chosen to have talked about how the constitution has scum too slowly embrace not only African Americans and women but then and other excluded groups all fulfilling that promise of the declaration? That's a tie that back to the founding vision and view it as a form of originalism is is incredibly inspiring and the word I asked her about is embracing live. What a beautiful distinctive particular word art and as I said to her? That's your word. That's not Thomas Jefferson or anyone else embrace it I said. What did you mean by Embraceth? She means embracing. She's this. Your reply was embracing the left out. People not just grudgingly but with open arms beautiful just just and that's and that's her vision and its distinctive. And that's why she's a hero. There were very few us. Supreme Court justices many good ones. That you know there's some great ones but there are few who transform the meaning of the Constitution our understanding of the Constitution and Thurgood Marshall through his advocacy brandeis reinventing the First Amendment just Ginsburg by envisioning the constitution as a more embraceth document. was I surprised that she called herself. And originalist I was because I said you know there's originalism and what's the alternative because you're not an originalist and she said no I am but I think the founders anticipated the constitution becoming evermore embrace it and it's striking Justice Kagan an introducing justice. Scalia said. We're all originalists now in the sense that everyone thinks that the text and original understanding matters to some degree the question is how do you translate the Constitution in light of changes in society and justice. GINSBURG genius is to see that increasing embrace it as stemming from the founders unders own vision so that the promise of the declaration which is thwarted in the original constitution resurrected Lincoln at Gettysburg and in front of Independence Hall. And you know what we have to do for now friends for just a minute. The best part of this building. The reason we're here right. Now let us just have the privilege of inspiring ourselves by looking over there the room where it happened. The Room where the Declaration of Independence is drafted promises that all men are created equal that promises toward in the constitution. Lincoln stands stands in front of there in eighteen. Sixty one and says I'd never had a thought politically that didn't stem from the declaration. And then the promise of the declaration is codified in the Post civil war amendments. Would you can see downstairs. But women are portrayed and because the women's hour has not come and the word male is inserted into the fourteenth amendment for the first this time but then comes the promise of women's equality in one thousand nine twenty in an anniversary. We're GONNA celebrate all next year's starting in two thousand twenty of women's equate. Yes yes we're seeing a lot of has that women are granted the right to vote in the constitution becomes more and more embraces and Justice Ginsburg Burg's great achievement is both enshrining that promise into the Constitution in her Virginia Military Institute opinion and also in challenging us to remember that the embrace it of the quality remains to be worked out and not all imposed by judges ages she remained. She's not a conventional conventional about this genius great woman. She doesn't believe that judges should just enforce equality. According to what they think that Eh philosophy requires she thinks it's ultimately up to us and that's what she's so inspired by young women who are fighting state by state in state legislatures and in the political arena to get more abrasive vision of equality because she says. Don't rely on Judges Dodge the question about the courts because it's such a big question but her answer would be. Don't rely on the court. Social Change has never come primarily from the courts. The courts can nudge or put on small breaks or they can codify new understandings of equality after. They've been embraced by society. As in the marriage equality decision or even Brown be board of Education but judges cannot lead. And that's another remarkable thing about this great leader who had this heroic vision of equality as an advocate. Ed is so conscious of her role as a judge becomes more comfortable because of her newfound voice and because of her empathy but still no never mistakes to be primarily the role of the courts to fight for equality. She thinks. That's the role of all of us. Doc I'm GonNa take the learnt so much from you and I'm GonNa ask you the last question which is a version of the. What do you think our legacy is but in particular among other things how does she fit into the the fights for women's equality have women has feminism caught up to her vision of equal treatment? Or is she has moved onto another vision. She was she a prophet and insisting on that kind of equal treatment or is she just embraced by the young women. Now because they think that she's such a boss but don't actually share her vision of equality and when you put her in the context of the greatest advocates for women's equality the timing there are a handful of heroes for every grade constitutional movement. How would you sum up her legacy? Yeah I think it's it's a great question and I think in a complicated way. She's both too early and too late in much the same way when we talked about her revision of reproductive freedom that we are only just catching up to although for a long time. She was ahead of her time and I think in a profound way she has said when I've interviewed her that she worries that young women. You know the the kids don't have any understanding of what life was like what her life was like. What even life was like pre-euro that we've become he comes so harold bloom's word for it is belated that we can't even imagine a time where there will be no abortion and I think she worries reas- about those things that we have somehow and she talks about it a little bit in that quote about winning road that we spike the football? We say it's over and no one believes leaves. We can ever go back and I think she's anxious about that. I also think there's a through line in her thinking it emerges so strongly wrongly in the book where she authentically believed that the marriage she and Marty had where you know he did the cooking and she did the writing and he picked up the kids from school and she did the writing and you know He. He went to the meetings when the kids were bad and she did the writing he. I think there's a lovely quote from Jane. Her daughter in the book where Jane Says You Know My my dad cooks and my mother does the thinking right eight and that was. That's how she thought all of our marriages we're going to look like that by nine thousand nine hundred seventy nine. We're all going to be in that marriage and clearly. That's not what happens when I've spoken to her about this. I think she still feels that the keystone here is going to to be this kind of small granular domestic equality. That she thought she she posits it in different ways. In terms of time time off work and maternity leave I mean she has programmatic definitions of it but I think she genuinely believed that we as a society would be much more equal in that sense that you know that lofty constitutional sense but also in the guys. He's changed the toilet paper roll. It's not hard and you know we're still not there and so I think that there's a way in which she's always a bit shocked that like when you watch the jetsons and you're like wait. We're not flying around in the air. I think she's shocked that that there's still such a massive disparity in just you know work organization and Domestic Organization and and you know she talks about. How is it possible that there's parody and law schools and women are still not partners at law firm so I think that's the part that shocks her and it's funny because it always circles back to? I think she just really believed that. We would come further than and we are at that silly domestic level and I remember thanking her profoundly because I have she said on more than one occasion. She raised my children. Because when my kids preschool teachers would call every single time they were badly behaved and and I could quote Justice Ginsburg. Who went her son was badly behaved and they constantly called her? Never Marty and at one point she sort of very very angrily. Greeley said the child has a father And I actually said that to my son's preschool teacher I don't you have to be the only person you call but I think that even you know that that happened with such a massive timestamped differential and yet still the world hasn't changed and even now I think more so than even she would have said five years ago. The space in which women are allowed allowed to exist in thrive publicly is contracting in front of our noses and so I think in that sense again she was both a profit but also kind of disappointed. Prophet that we haven't done the work of organizing ourselves. According to this in her view just crystalline obvious. Obvious definition of what equality would look like. Wow well I guess it's up to me is the host to say first of all thank you for taking the time on to come here and for teaching. I need to finish the thanks. Which is for teaching me as much about art as I could possibly hope for and let her shining spirit? which

Ruth Bader Justice Justice Scalia Jeff Rosen Marty League Ginsburg Chief Justice Roberts Roberts Supreme Court Thurgood Marshall Justice Ginsburg Justice Steve justice GINSBURG justice O'Con Ginsburg Jeffrey Lauren Justice Kennedy US Court of Appeals Justice O'Connor President Obama US Supreme Court Shelby County DC Chief Justice Rehnquist Dalia
Mavs-Spurs Post-Game | Doubling DeRozan, the Mavs' Final Shot, Does Kristaps Deserve More Trust?

Dallas Hoops Fancast - A Podcast for Dallas Mavericks Fans

37:47 min | 2 months ago

Mavs-Spurs Post-Game | Doubling DeRozan, the Mavs' Final Shot, Does Kristaps Deserve More Trust?

"Hello everyone and welcome to dallas hoops fan cast. I'm your host sydney. And i'm here with the person that you all listen to martin. That's not true. The mass loss tonight to the san antonio spurs when nineteen seventeen. Lot of things to talk about. I made a list of all of the kind of like highlight points from this game We can start at the end. Since it's probably fresh on our minds right now the not really buzzer beater. But the game winner by damore. Jeff rosen mean. He was killing the mavs the whole night. Actually the entire spurs team. I feel like they made every single shot of a shot. Fifty four percents from the field. Tonight yeah is really high for those that don't watch. It's hard to win a game when a team is shooting that well yeah no matter who you when they make over half their shots yeah. It's tough to win. Well you're going to do But yeah derosa was killing them. The final shot. I thought dorian played good defense. He forced a rose into a step back. Which you know for some players like luka. That's what he wants to rosen. Doesn't take a lot of setbacks not that i remember and it was a tough shot and he swished you. Because he's demar rose and that's what he does. I think both of us both of us at some point in the game we we got more and more surprised that they weren't double teaming demar derozan yup. Do you think they were is a good reason for that. Or what do you think was behind that. First of all carlisle in the postgame talked about how they had guests discuss. Doubleteaming derozen an on a final possession. And it never happened so like it was supposed. Yeah yeah so on the final possession. They were supposed to the ball at rosen's hands which i think we all thought they should have done. Yeah but i thought it could have gone even way earlier then. Even that last shot to rosen was killing them. And i don't know what carlyle sees when dorian guarding two rose in i love. Dorien derozen torches him. There's something about dorian that derozen just gets where he wants to go. He gets his shots and they're all well contested it. Just he's got orients number. And this is now three seasons or or two seasons at our however long rosen's been with the spurs and he has some of his best games against dallas. And in the second half tonight. I freaking thirty points in the second half and just killed dorian in in the last three f- three minutes of the game. I thought we probably could have double team derozen. Because he was really their only offense in the last three minutes of the game and if you just got the ball out of his hands once or twice than you may have pulled out a victory here so they were supposed to double but they didn't. That's what carlisle said on the last session. That's interesting because that's happened before. I think it was against portland. Lillard had potential game winner which he hit and it came out afterwards that they were supposed to double but didn't and so. I don't know how that happens. I don't know if it gets loud in there. Or i don't know how that is usually drawn up and where the miscommunication can happen. But it's interesting that it's happened down twice weird. Hopefully it's just a coincidence. Yeah hopefully it's nothing. So not doubleteaming i mean. Can you think of a reason like i mean. Do they not have the defenders that can scramble. Would that create a dose jerry. Ming does create open shots for the hosing team. And you really don't want to do that. and it probably may not have been a good idea tonight. The way the spurs were shooting and carlisle probably took that into consideration. If they were missing all their shots and he probably would have double teamed him. But the way the spurs shot tonight. Maybe if you know you really think about it. Doubling rose may not have been the best idea you just trust your best defender forcing a guy into really contested. Mid-range jumpers which is what you want and he just happened to make every single one of them because that's what he does against dorian. Yeah well also. They were shooting the three ball pretty well. I mean thirty eight a little over thirty eight percent it. Just don't shoot a lotta three. Yeah but if you leave derozen are you leaving. Open a three pointer and chances are jay. Rosen's taking a two pointer. So i mean if you're doing this mathematically than maybe felt like a contested two was better than open three is okay. This is where. I love analytics but sometimes your gut is got to liege a little bit and i think ten nine it was cleared. A rosen was gonna make his shots. There was just nothing you can do about it. So i think you throw. The percentage is out the window at that point and realise. He's gonna shoot sixty percent tonight or whatever in the second half and so maybe you just don't let him shoot the ball and you force another guy make a three. They're not a really high volume three point shooting team so that may not be what they wanna do but you know they just lost the game and i thought they played well san antonio just shot the crap out of the ball and and you know they. They've lost five in a row and they played tonight like their season was on the line. They played like a really good team. Tonight yes i was watching it. I was like are we sure. They've lost five in a row. You can see than that. They don't really make the shots on a consistent basis because they made him tonight and they lost but they they haven't been making them yeah To john murray was on fire. Yeah lemon for seventeen to four on three pointers. And he probably averages like fifteen points. A game on the season on forty. Five percent He averages fifteen point seven points per game for the season shooting forty five percent and tonight he was just. Oh but that was the whole team. Yeah the whole spurs team and whatever like we were talking about it during the game. The way the spurs were shooting. We're like you know the way they're shooting tonight. I just don't see the mavericks winning this game and sometimes that happens. And i don't know if you take a lot out of it. No i don't think you can take a lot out of it Defensively in terms of like the spurs made a billion shot. The math still played pretty. Good defense i mean. I didn't see anything where i was like. They just don't have the focus or the effort or or mrs on switches or whatever i thought they played normal defense but yeah they just shot the crap. Out of the ball rosen. I don't think he shoots open shots. I've never seen a derozen game where he just gets. an open. jumper like everything is ice contested. So which says a lot about how good he is as an iso shooter but you know they contested everything pretty much. There's a couple open threes. But that's going to happen. They just made him dijon day. Murray and the and marta rose and we're just switching everything yes so i like on that end i feel like you can't over analyze it but on the offensive end of what you did. Then i feel like that's probably where you can take most of your notes from Again starting from the from the end of the game the mavs had the last shot of the game. It was only half a second left. I get it. You're probably not going to get a great shot. I do wish they got a better shot. That a full or a half court. Three pointer from luca. Yeah it's hard to get a good shot with only point five to go when they know probably going for three s so that i don't know like i it's hard to sit here and criticize it's five is point five seconds you know. It's i named me a team that consistently gets a good look with point five seconds on the clock so it's a sucky shot but i don't think it's poor execution or bad coaching thing. It's just the fact that you have point five seconds and you just you have to shoot it the moment you get it anywhere on the core and it just happened far far away. Yeah that's the thing. It was so far out leg if it is that the play you drew up where we're ended up in a half court shot. I feel like. I don't know half of play where it's closer. I'm assuming the play was for who could occur around like he did but the defender was so close on him. He had to go off of him a little bit further. And then just throw it up like maybe you could. I don't know maybe a porzingis hadn't found out than than they could've done awad or something like that but yeah it's tough by. I don't expect a great shot or even a make a better shot would have been nice. Yeah speaking of. Chris is is probably going to be the longest part of this is talking about him. Because there's a lot of talk about kristaps as usual lately. Fourth quarter you know. He felt like he should be more involved in the fourth quarter. In this game he led the team in shots in the fourth quarter. He failed out with a little over a minute. Left or something But still led the team in shots in that quarter. He finished the game with. What was it not sixteen points. Thirty one points fifteen rebounds he had i think twenty points at halftime so that means you got his remaining eleven in the second half which is still good. Yeah it's still fine. You know. I like to me the whole time. I'm thinking like. I'm really glad that we're feeding porzingis. This is this is great. But we're still losing. And i wish we could. Just give the ball to luca. Let him take over like he always. Does you know it's just so much easier. Rather than having to like feed it to him every time and it's just it's just so much easier to just let luke do it. It's a lot more trust in luka. Maybe maybe that's what kills easier because pausing hasn't consistently performed especially in the fourth quarter. I know he hasn't been getting shots but he hasn't performed well all the time. Like he has a few good games here and there or he'll have a five game stretch or an eight game stretch or whatever and then he'll have a ten game stretch where he's not moving out there he just standing there and then sulking or whatever comes for another excuse why he yeah and then exactly so. I'm glad he's playing well again. But i guess at this point it's just keep doing it. Do whatever game. Yeah i think so like yeah. I'm a little. I'm still skeptical. I'm not it's it's not enough for just two games and you know i'm sorry like i'm sure there's other people or other fans that are like they're totally on board with it and they're like this is what he can do but for me. I was a little skeptical. I'd have to see it for more than two games before. I'm before i trust in the way that i trust luca which is fair. I mean we've seen luca for three seasons. Now do this every game so of course we trust him more than crops. Who's it's only been a few games now But yeah it's just a trust factor isn't quite there. Yeah i just get sick and tired of talking about him and and even the broadcast they talk about him all the time about you. Know how specially is anytime. He does a a move you know they got to beat a dead horse like manny is just is the greatest player i've ever seen. It's like over and over and over and over. And he is found a way to just make everything about him and win or lose good game or bad game. It's somehow going to revolve around porzingus in the conversation and it's nothing we're doing wrong. It's just that's what he's created. That's what the the situation has created. Because he hasn't been getting shots in the fourth understandable. You don't say things publicly. He's done this before he did it with this whole minutes thing. Instead of talking. To carlisle privately he said it public to force carlisle's hand and it's just unnecessary. It's always something i i. It was like. He needs a longer stretches on the horia. He needs his minutes. Rotations changed and they did and then we were like okay. If you're going to say that you better show up. And he did. He played well for a pretty long stretch and then he kinda started right back and then it was. He's not getting enough post shots. He's not getting the shots that he needs so they started feeding the post and he did okay for a few games and then in canada tapered off a little bit. And now it's i need the ball in the fourth quarter. So they're giving him the ball and he's doing okay in the fourth quarter but it will fizzle it is like yeah i i think i i said it's almost every episode. I'm so tired of talking about him but there's always something well it's it's also the sideline outbursts that he's had that brooklyn game. I think of or the alleyoop your brooklyn game your member like they were going to him every single possession. Yeah and. I don't even remember why he was kicking a chair or throwing a hissy fit in that game because like dude. You're getting the ball every time by what do you. What do you miss you on a fifth. Yeah they miss you. And then the one where doreen got it and not porzingus. And it's like look you should want pours dory into get an easy bucket you know. That's what you do for your teammate. Instead he was like. I should have got it. All ubani wind kicked a chair again. I don't know why keeps kicking chairs but he you know he's doing that again. And it's like dude you're up by eighteen points and you been playing well but because you didn't get that all you pass and it to you. It's a sign of all the other things that are going wrong free and that you gotta pow in. It's like we're. That's just not how you do things. I just i feel like he always gives us something to talk about because he's always bringing up something. I'm not getting enough minutes. I'm not getting the right shots. I'm not getting enough shots in the fourth quarter and so now we're over analyzing everything it's like okay are are we doing. What kristaps needs. How is he performing with like r- always changing okay. Let's change the rotations. Okay let's let's change the offense little bit okay. Okay let's change our fourth quarter like we're always changing all these things just to try to squeeze points out of you know and it's it's just unnecessary. You know i. i don't know i feel like. He thinks that the only way he can be a true impact player is when he's scoring and that's just not true. There's a lot of great players and winning players that do a lot of other things than just score dream on is one of those guys and i know. They haven't been winning lately. Whatever he he's not the kinda guy that you you put on a bad team and they become a winning team. Yeah that's not dream on but dream on. Is that piece on a winning team. Yeah that he can do everything else. He's a great defender. Greet rebounder great passer So porzingis when he's not getting his shots he's typically not doing anything and that's offensively or defensively anytime he's having a bad game offensively. What's the common theme. He's just standing there when he's having having a good game tonight. What's the common theme. He's cutting he's crash in the offensive glass which he had several of them tonight but he just doesn't do it consistently and and then to expect the team to force feed you in the fourth quarter to cater to all of your little requests when you're not there forty percent of the time so like forty percent of the games you're not out there in the fourth quarter who google does have to do it himself and he does it very well and then when you are. When you're out there now we gotta cater. Yes exactly so it's like how do you think you have a voice in that and then to me. That's in his mind. He's he's one person he's this guy that as a superstar franchise player all of this and that blah blah blah. And he's just not and maybe he might be if he played consistently but he just doesn't so he doesn't play but percent of the games and then half of those a non factor. Yeah so. I published an article today on dallas. Hoops cast dot com of kind of talking about this kristaps consistency. And we've talked before in the pod that to us. It seemed like he only played well against bad teams or mediocre teams. And tonight yeah and there was some people that were like. That's not true. That's just what you guys are saying. That's just the narrative. And so i wanted to look at it like okay. Is this actually true. When i looked at his numbers from playing against sub sub five hundred teams and playing against teams. That had a five hundred or better record in the difference to me was stark. I mean his scoring average against those teams goes down by over five points. His shooting percentage overall pluses. Three point percentage. They both drop significantly like the numbers. Don't lie it is true against sucky teams or or losing five hundred teams. He's a star. He's doing what he did tonight. Against the spurs who are a sub five hundred team he averages twenty three points a game in ten rebounds and shoots fifty percent all the things he did tonight but against the good teams. He's like seventeen points a game and seven rebounds which isn't bad but it's not enough to warrant these sorts of conversations where we need to feed him in the fourth and need to get him shots. It's like you can okay against the spurs. Yes sure you can do that and you think like yes see. This is why. I need the ball. But where were you against the clippers and the nuggets. Yes and the blazers and the knicks this year against those teams. You've scored fifteen or fewer points when his team really needs him the most not when he wants to be needed but when they actually need him the most he hasn't delivered so yeah. There's not as much trust there. You know and it just it is what it is he can. He performed better like we said he's done it the past couple of games this great. But he's got to do it again. He's got to be consistent. Like luca is like these other stars are in order earned that trust his teammates and fans cares about that one. I just don't think there. I just don't think he'll be that because he doesn't play enough enough and so you can never really be a true rhythm. You can't carry a team. You cannot carry team when you're not out there and so the the biggest concern or a big concern that i have is what happens. When we're playing against the lakers or the clippers or the blazers or the nuggets or whatever these top teams are. Let's say a game seven in the nba in the playoffs in its fourth quarter. And it's a close game. Who do you want to have the ball. Luca exactly and it's yes and that's it. You know so luca. Will you'll probably get a couple of shots but you better make them. Because the moment you start missing him he knows okay. He can't rely on you and he hasn't been able to. That's just the facts of it. You know he hasn't been able to rely on porzingis to be that second star for a lot of different factors. But it's just true. Yeah and that's the concern. I have is like okay. So are you expecting to to get all the shots in the in the fourth quarter in a game seven win. Luca is by far the best player on the team. And then if you don't you know are you going to have a problem with it are you. What are your postgame comments. Let's say you lose that game and you went over one in the fourth quarter over to. Are you going to say i need more shots like pick. What are your postgame. Comments can be then know and it's like why can't you just stop making it about you. Why can't we just move on with our lives and talking about africa and the the loss of the spruce whatever you know. So that's my thing is like he's just he's got to do it more consistently and these past few games have been great and tonight. I'm it would be unfair of me to say you know. Look you got all these shots in the fourth quarter and they still lost. Even though i mean that's a thing happen had anything to get it. One game isn't enough to say like. Oh he's wrong. Even though. I think that he's not the kind of player that should warrant. Demanding the ball in the fourth quarter. But you know it's unfair to say that after one game i don't think anything porzingus related had any impact of on the mavericks. Losing the game. It was all the spurs shooting. Yeah i just. I wish luca. I took over there at the last minute but they went down. There were down by eight and they had to save them. I mean when when he's constantly having to look for chris tops. Feed him then. He doesn't do his normal thing instinctively. Yeah and that's again. That's my problem with the his attitude about it and again that that makes me think about a game seven fourth quarter or a game. Six in a three two series. Where you're down you know. And and now is looking to be second guessing his decision making because he wants to make you happy winner lose we gotta make sure krista is honestly it's about about shots always about the ball. Yeah and when luke delivers everybody's fine he can't do it. Every single game is just not practical. It's just not going to happen. And then the one game he doesn't. He uses us an opportunity to make yet to make his okay. So what about the nine other. Yeah april yeah you lost a game now is your chance to jump on it and it was shot and it was a weird game like the whole team. Didn't play well and it's like you didn't play well as a team and yes. Luka missed a lot of shots in the fourth quarter that he normally makes like why. Why make that about you in your chest you say. Hey you know. We played poorly tonight. We know we're a better team than this. And we just didn't deliver tonight and that's it just move on like why make it about you not getting shot. And that's the reason why you lost. Yeah that that's the reason why we lost because lucas shot stops and gift shots quarter. Even though he hasn't proven to be that kind of player that can lead his team to wins again. He's a couple times now but he's got to prove that In order to warrant statements and demands like that. I mean okay so just moving onto a little positive. I mean there were flashes tonight of the kristaps. Luca duo that we all thought we were. We thought we were gonna see. I thought they did a lot more in the pick and roll tonight. Then i think i've seen them do in a longtime. And so chris ops there were you know he got open. Threes or mid range pull ups layups. They were pretty good in the pick and roll tonight and it was a great sign of that. Duo can be you know. And then we'll see. It's like anything chris. Kristaps never last forever. Well let's see if this lasts more than two games. The thing is when you run into a team that switches and then porzingas doesn't have that little open pull up jumper again that That he got all night tonight. Because san antonio doesn't switch they kind of hedge in that left porzingas open a little. Bit and luca found him pretty much every single time a couple of times that he missed in i was looking to see what porzingas reaction was gonna be but a team switches and lucas. Not gonna do that. He's gonna take his man. And you know i guess unless he has muggsy bogues on them. Then we'll we'll post them up because that's a mismatch but anytime it's a switch. It's a mismatch for luca. Way more than it's a mismatch reporting is he. He he gained just because of sheer skill. Yes yeah yeah. Well an porzingas even when he has a small. John doesn't really do well on the post ups. And you know his little turnaround elbow in the face jump shot and then miss it. It's like that doesn't go inconsistently enough. And so are you asking luca to give you the ball when you have a small on him. When luca has a big on them. And it's like you have to recognize luka has the better mismatch. uk is a better place and he has when luca has a big on them. That is a better mismatch than you. Having a small on you and if you're okay with that just recognize that and you know well that happened a few times tonight. Where because the spurs switched they both had mismatches and luca attacked his mismatch. He didn't give it two kristaps one. That's what he should do. Yeah and i was doing the same thing you did. I was watching kristof to see his reaction he seems. I mean. i didn't see anything. Obviously we are master body language readers. That's like our second language so this is what we do in games. With all due respect he does make it very well. And i've been talking about the body language for a long time. It turns out. I was right because remember. All this stuff has come out now about lucan porzingis. They don't really like each other. Have been saying that for a long time. I've been saying that long before. There is an article about how they're best friends. Okay oh yeah from the anyways. The reality distortion mavericks media has created. But yeah i mean so. They did pretty well tonight. I there were some good signs. There were some awesome plays. I mean chris ups. Had some really awesome pleased tonight and it was like that's would we thought we were gonna get and we're like but he three days into this and we got a couple of plays of it. It's like he's done flashes like this. Yeah all the whole two years. He's played yeah all twenty games and in these flashes like okay. This is the guy but then tomorrow when we play philadelphia. Let's say hypothetically him lucas both play. Yeah let's say he goes out there and he shoots six of seventeen against a good team tonight. He played the spurs losing record. They're a better team than the spurs just happened to lose tonight tomorrow. They play the number two team in the in the east in philadelphia. And if he plays you gotta do it again. You've got to perform you gotta deliver because the moment you you fade like. I think luka is officially done right now we gotta do it himself. And i don't think luka minds but it's the fact that he's always got to be thinking about you you don't deliver and it's like so if you get these wide open shots like he got tonight and you get him again tomorrow. You better make them. Because tomorrow's game is a lot more important than tonight's game because they need you a lot more than tonight. Yeah because probably their role players that they're playing a better team. They're going to be a defense. This is when you're stars have to step really. and so. And if he if he comes out and just you know. Six seventeen for eighteen points and nine rebounds. It's like will you know. Shut up. Shut up your show up up and show up like this is when your team needs you. The most against those really good teams because on the the lower teams. Their team defense isn't going to be as great. You know you can rely on guys like tim hardaway junior and jalen brunson dorian or maxi when he's back Against a really good teams that your stars needs to carry you and that's when your team really needs you and again it's like when you look at the numbers against above five hundred teams. He becomes just a role player. Seventy seven percent shooting them. Forty-three percent percents shooting. The numbers are in. The article is so you can read it. Plus there's other details on why this is important and so yeah it's like that's that's when he really needs to show up and i mean if he does it great like if he could be that player then the mavs are set for the future. But he's got to do it again and again and again every night every season. These guys like luca. Not even talking about the superstars. Okay so maybe. Christmas is in that but talk about like the the second star the do. Oh guy the kyri. Irving klay thompson dwayne wade with lebron james. Anthony davis those guys. They do it every game. No comparison they do it every game every night you know they might defer to the star because they're better but they still show up every game. That's what you have to do to have a stop talking like this and to earn the trust of your teammates just hasn't happened. Yeah and and that's really all there is any don't do it. Then like you said shut up shop bringing this up just if you're not talking just show up and do it. If he is a no show tomorrow if he plays. I doubt he plays which is still a factor. Win like okay. You did tonight but then tomorrow your team really needs when you can't even play. I'm assuming they're going to play. Because they maverick. Yeah and they. They look like they are trying to get that. Six seed yeah. Tonight's loss really hurts but they still have time now. The mavericks even to this point in time they played the toughest schedule in the nba. Up to this game so After i believe it's after philadelphia's game i think they have one more tough game but then the rest of it is pretty easy teams that they're playing now. The mavericks haven't played well against the easy teams lately. They're going to have to correct that. They've got so the sixers tomorrow. And then grizzlies. Knicks kings pistons. And they play the lakers back to back which years so it does. Ease up against the sixers against the knicks. That in this game is also going to be tough. Because here's the thing. Let me interrupt you and makeup. Yes thank you so in talking about does kristof show up in big games. You could go by the record but you could also go by the test of what a big matchup is and the knicks. That's a big match up and like this year. I think it was this year. He scored like fifteen or less points against them. So terrible game was big matchups where his team needs him and he doesn't show up but yeah so against the sixers. They'll need him against the lakers. Oh need him and he's gotta do it. Let's hope that by the time they get to the lakers will braun eighty or still out and the projected to be out still i followed. Brian was projected to be back on that on those games. Okay but that was like the initial. Yeah let's see. So yeah we'll see but you know the those games would would probably play a big role in seating. Yes for the mavericks. I think they still have a chance to to catch portland. Because i just don't think portland is really that good As a team. And i know they've they have a winning record and everything like that. But i think it's pretty well documented that they're they have such a poor net rating for they have their. They're the only team in. The eighth has a negative point different. And it's mainly because in what we've talked about this before damian lillard heroics and the clutch and like i said. There's only so many shots you can make when the games on the line at some point the percentages are gonna even out. He is not the greatest player ever so he's not going to continue to shoot sixty percent or something in the clutch. It's just impossible so the percentages are going to even out. And i'm hoping that that will help the mavericks but we'll see tomorrow's game is is just became a whole lot more important because you last night who is sub five hundred team. Which is now all your wins. The last couple of wins. You've gotten oregon's good teams in your losses are against not so good teams. He s so you know yeah. I don't have a lot of trust in kristaps if he does it for you know not just a week or whatever like you like. I said these guys that were you have that confidence in it in them. they've been doing it for seasons. Yeah every game. So i mean it would take a while for me to to trust chris. Tops luca. But i mean if he doesn't he does it but he's got to do it to me. I've given kristaps benefit. If you guys listen to this to this podcast for it took you around. Yeah like. I've always even chris off the benefit of the doubt. We did a whole long episode a couple months ago. Just addressing the whole. Kp thing and should they trade him or whatever and i was always on the lake benefit of the doubt he'll know the injuries have slowed down. He'll come around and all that. But i'm to the point now where i'm like man. You gotta do it. Like i want to believe in you. I always defended you. That the map should shouldn't trade you that they should keep you and give you a chance but at some point like you gotta do it. You gotta stop saying. I need this. I need this. I need this. You gotta just show up and do it. I think right now are beating a dead horse. Yeah we are Thanks guys for listening. Oh okay is this. Like the other night. Whenever i went on. My hour-long ran yeah. I think we're repeating ourselves at this point about porzingis. Clear did have a really great game and he had some awesome plays that were fun to see and he and luca had can't even cheer good kim and can't even when he does something good because it's thinking about the. Yeah so anyway. I'm tired of talking about it. Yeah but you know it was it was it was sake loss. We'll see if they pick it up tomorrow. I hope so. Garri that article though on dallas whose cast dot com because to me. It was really informative. It was beyond just like this is my opinion. And it was like oh snaps. This is what's happening so thank you to everyone that shared it so for and go check it out anything else. You'd like to add martin nope okay. Thanks guys for listening. Thank you for all of your support. I this week have gotten a few messages from people on social media just showing their support for the For the podcast. For the show. And i just. I really appreciated that. I just wanted to say it out loud. You guys have been so supportive and so great like such great listeners. And so thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. I'm here to if you to say something nice about now. All they do is ask about you like this. All have people just randomly on twitter at me. Hey how's martin fine okay. Because i'm not on twitter. Yeah i guess so maybe the purpose to create a mystique. Now i just. I hate twitter. Yeah i get you okay. Thank you everyone for listening and we will see you guys in the next episode tomorrow. Hopefully after a win and stink.

spurs luca rosen dorian carlisle damore Jeff rosen luka demar rose Dorien derozen derozen dallas mavericks marta rose carlisle
The Freight

thebuzzr pod

52:51 min | Last month

The Freight

"On the banks of the greater river high above the alert gorge this is the buzzer podcast. Indie music new releases industry insiders out of the box conversations with guests from june worth from the west coast to the east coast to cross upon and from down under. And now here's shame. Aj here on air indie. Welcome and enjoy episode forty one. I music history trivia for may third this day in nineteen fifty two kitty wells recorded. It wasn't god who made Dog angels disenchanted with your career. Prospects and considering retirement kitschy agreed to the session at owen bradley's studio because of the one hundred and twenty-five unions scale recording pavement. It wasn't god who made honky tonk. Angels became the first number one billboard country hit for a solo female artist. Boston rock band the rate or on the show today. The band's sound is a mix of rock and roll blues rock soul and jam with the modern rock edge. You're going to love the span frontman l. Turbo basis. Stephen anderson and drummer mark lover and join us. Welcome adams stephen and mark. I'll say scrape all the band got top. Three members of the man got together today. Thank you very much for doing that now. With a busy life. It doesn't always happen doesn't always happen. Yeah well you guys have been kicking acids your debut single show me in august. Twenty twenty number one of i tunes. Blue chart was pretty mindblowing. In the debut single we had that we you know really didn't have grand plans to release a single but covert forced us into a kinda which was a good thing and it blew our minds head. Hit number one. That was a pretty incredible feeling updates throughout the morning and it was pretty awesome to climb. It was great fun. Tell me so. I mean it was. It was really like unimaginable. Because i didn't even it's not even something that registers you know our first single. I is an independent artists. There's so much there's so many things to do to like to building up to releasing over song that you know you don't even realize until you actually just do it and so that was my first. Go at doing it and you know. Get all the ducks in a row. You released the song you hope. There's a positive response from the people that are following you and interior music and one of my friends actually texted me. Who is who is looking at the The i two is charts. He texted me like early in the morning. He's like to check out. The i tunes blues charts he goes. Your song is number like i think. When i woke up it was like number. I don't eight or something like that. That's really incredible success. She have on the charts and oppressed. So adam you're the front man for the band. I'd like to know a bit more about you in the other members. Can you tell us. I your background. Yeah absolutely so. I started playing Guitar singing probably around. When i was like i think. Wanna say ten or eleven years old and then sorta stopped taking more seriously around like thirteen and then You know really got into the beatles and the beatles really watch me until like my whole you know love of music like real deep love music and taking it more seriously and Trying to keep getting better as a musician and thinking about music in that way and then yeah when onto berkeley college of music for college and then started playing in bands and doing you know got into the blues and was a really cool blue scene in boston Around where we are. And i got to go to some great. There was some like really legendary like open mic jam sessions around quincy in boston around that time and i got to do some of those. That really helped me like you know really shaped me as a player and just moved on from there and kept going through bands and taking things more seriously and writing more writing more. And now we got the free gone and i Compete compete more thrilled with health. Things ago yeah. You guys really. He formed a really good adam. Incredible and you're one of my favorites and the paul mccartney influences definitely in usa. You can hear alice great. So i'd like to hear from arc next so marcanti to get into drums. Yes so the first time. I heard the drums. I was about four years old walking down the street and a neighborhood friend friend and my brothers friend. Thank was was Playing the drums. And i heard from the street just stopped in my tracks. I remember clearest day. And i stood there for about half an hour listening. I just had to beat my head. I could not shake it. And i went home and i begged my parents play the drums. Begged them as well four and they bought me like a cheap drama. When i smashed up the first day broke it and then eventually liquid awesome first grade. I bought my first trump's node sling. I've been found of the art stuff. Like one hundred bucks with yards so money Bang on that did break that one luckily and kept playing and never stopped and what kind of job set gene play on now. I have a d. W we'll jazz series. I love it so for peace. A bit rock so This is my favorite. I can tell a couple of years ago. Dream said i finally got it a couple of years ago. I've been building up to it for a long time. And then i finally I finally did it. Just it suits me so well just fits perfect some the list out no but i can see his face on video light up. It's amazing what about us. The what's your background. I grew up with music around me. My my family is pretty musical. And i picked up the guitar around. Think about thirteen. Fourteen years old. And i haven't put it down. I play bass now. I've been playing in various cover bands about twenty years and we started the freight about two plus years ago and doing the original music is much more fulfilling as a musician. And we're just having a really great time with it. What made you gravitate towards the base from qatar. Honestly it was work. You get more work being a bass player i find. It's hard to break in as guitar player. Because he was just so betty krakatau players and i wasn't a great guitar player so i can be mediocre basis you good basic issue honest with the percussion part of the band the drums and the bass favorite part of the ban. It's awesome yeah. Yeah great so my cousin mark Do he had a drum set and jimmy was just going eight. You know and i desperately wanted to a drum set but it didn't go over with up freeze that my mom was very patient with i. I don't know how she did. Beings frustrated and coming downstairs and throw sticks in unlike stink. And she's like marco becca staticky plan and i would have been like stop playing please. But she was encouragement. Go on and i love just always just loved. It loved the physicality of Wanted to play an instrument. So are all of you from boston. Area like how did you actually look up to me. So yeah i. I grew up in quincy and actually the two other guys. Who aren't here. The baron john who plays percussion john. Kelly and greg ellis. Who plays keys backups. Ain't they're actually from quincy to and yes so. Quincy's just south of boston. Like just south of boston and then these guys are all from the social area to the social areas just like from boston basically down to the cape to cape cod and does a really great music community in the of of boston and it's like very close knit community. Everyone knows each other. Everyone's like at gigs around supportive of each other and there's like a facebook group. I was on that when i was starting the band. Just put a note out there saying hey you know i got some songs. We're gonna put a rock and roll band together for anyone interested you know. Hit me up and mark was the first one to reach out and then we just kind of went from there definitely put together a great man. Thank you guys are awesome. Now i i love you i absolutely i really not being serious i i i. I heard your music i was like. I'm down down. You provide may. I was surprised. The original reviews over sweden. You're saying you're influenced by police. Upload of the beatles stones and i kept hearing journey and aerosmith alsarai just today because i went down the rabbit hole in reading every reviewed. I'm going and one of the reviews stated era cycle. That's why 'cause air my all time favorite band ever. And and i listen again to a couple of tracks. Yeah i hear. Jerry i hear aerosmith so at your completely different saying you can tell you. Draw a lot of the bullets from that is great. That's amazing thank you so much for saying that will smith and journey. Yeah that's pretty awesome. Thank you i live. Eat breathe music. Can we talk about fish on a bike because next absolutely so fishing bike it came out. That was an early one i wrote. That was like a really kind of you. Know just a a bluesy progression that i had in my brain sort of just the way i played it. Just got a funky guitar if the going on there and You know i. I kind of heard a little bit of beatles. He thing in there. So we added in some sort of you know harmonies greg plays a killer solo and just as far as like writing the song. I wrote it in kind of a funny way. Actually i i was i was trying to think about like analogies and like Ways to say things without directly saying it and so i googled ways. I think it was like we used to say like What's wrong with you or something. Like what's the matter or something like that and it just kept coming up with like animal references and so like one of them was like i need you like a fish. Needs bike in one of them was Being your bonnet. that's one of the lyrics them. One of them was What's the us. Gosh you think. I wrote this. I can remember the other. One is the new bike was the other. So there's three really and then But yeah that's how i kind of. I actually just sort of google. That thought you know what i mean. The sort of analogy thought of what i was thinking about like you know and it just kind of put it together in a blues form with that riff and yeah you know it's a it's a catchy. Little catch a little rock tune. You know you sent that to me still like the way. We realize atom competent An idea for a song and he just a rough acoustic thing on his iphone sends it out to everybody. We listened to kind of figure out what our policy gonna come together in a number harvard square. I was going to see the elevators who were another social. They're paying sinclair that night. And i got that riffles at the hotel in a this is a great song community her the herd the rhythm section on the drums for that in my head. We couldn't wait to get back together to kind of work out and it's about getting out of a relationship the scoring fast. Yeah i think so. I think it's about like i think about like something that's going like. You know getting a little amped up getting laid off. He just want to bring it back down a little bit. You know what i mean. That's the point that it's at and it's either it's either like we can bring it back down chill or we can just call it a day because i need you like fish interbike. Okay i have. I have a few brothers so i get that i get that. So we're going to hear fish on a bike next Oh god Uh-huh june. I need you on july of this this ooh definitely sanding track is great mark talking about the creative process for that song. Is that type of craters Process us all. The time has the reason i'm asking. That is the next track we're gonna talk about Here is me on and it was co written with adam and steven. Did that have a different process. Suddenly others that a different process. Stephen sort of initiated with even sending me the music. What stephen take how he started that a song idea. I had for for a while and recorded. It sent it to adam and it has the cool zeppelin. Feel like definitely one of our biggest influences and the song makes pretty obvious so adam took it. He actually had put zeppelinesque lyrics with just like lustful singing about a girl and so the whole thing just came together like that. We're really happy with it. Yeah totally said he. I remember he sent me. He sent me the parts. There's there's two. There's a few districts distinct parts actually and You know he thought they were also kind of arranged them and this you know there's a bit of a story when i when i i will to full how you how do you tell us. Yeah it's fine. It is what it is but it's so anyway. Silence hanging out by my wife and the kids were away in her family so i was home alone for the weekend. You know just shell out on the couch I i love golf. You know i stink at it. But i love golf and so i was watching golfing with the lpga was on and and there was. The girl who was leading. The tournament was she was just. She was amazing golfer but she was also gorgeous and so the camera with her wherever she went. And just the song kinda wrote itself. I wish i could help. We call this try me on the lpga in parentheses joe tornado between us. So the song's about I mean steady talking on public. He used the word lost. I never you know. I just i just let it come out but yeah i got yeah. That's a really good time. They can only t- so good. She's proud they really laid back. She's good she's cool. Yeah spirited tell me what brought you to do an acoustic Video of song. I feel like with the acoustic video. I just Wanted to. I like to do if i can do it. Acoustic version of all our songs. I feel like that that can help. Make me connect to the song to like. Have it be a strip down thing. You know what i mean like if i can hear it acoustically with just me and guitar. That's i think that's a good sign for me to know that like the songs working. Yeah i agree with you. I'd like seeing those down acoustic and it. Actually it did showcase your vocals very well. Thank you very well thank you. We're going to listen to try me on off this tampa talk when you salinas a so. I notice again. They seem to be a pattern with you guys The you had producer. Jeff rosen and ten gents involved with all three of your songs talk about that leaves. Part of a sound check studios is in boston. So yes so right near us on the south shore. There's this really awesome place. That opened up over. The last couple of years called sanchez studios. And we've been there really. Since the beginning. When they first opened up they are really kind of really inclusive. Place for musicians around the area they. They have like rehearsal rooms that you can rent like monthly. So there's lots of bands around all the musicians of that. It's a great community and our friend. Jeff rosen who is an incredible musician in his own right he When colder hit he had done some producing stuff but like when coverted did he really made the commitment to like the bill. The studio and start doing things like a an amazing ways and so He's a friend of ours so it was kind of like a natural fit to start working with them not to mention. It's like basically in our hometown. You know what i mean. So it's very close to us and was wins. All around jeff is like i mean we've had some amazing nights making music in his studio It's just a blast. He's really become an extension of the ban. Because you know he gets us musically we trust him he trusts us. It's very collaborative. And it's just an historical is just an amazing environment. And he's he's a talented guy. He's been great. And that with ted johnson and the mastering ted jensen is a literal legend in mastering like. He's done you name it. I bet he's worked with unlike. You know you're talking like he did hotel california he. Did you know he's done. Billy joel green day the police. I mean it's unbelievable list so you know when you look up. Mass rang it's You know it wasn't hard to make the choice to go with him. Not in his work is just like it's amazing when we get when we get when we get a master back from him. It's like it's really. it's it's a great feeling. And how'd you to happen. Upon tent honestly searching i i was i was seeking out mastering engineers that were reputable with samples of work that i knew about and he was really top of the list to be honest. And then you know once. I saw how extensive his resume is an how much i love his work clearly. The things that i listened to in love it was kind of like a no brainer. I was pleasantly surprised. When i saw his name on credits. Took me both a while. And it's funny he he. He's a great guy he like. He shared our he. Shares are music on instagram when it gets released on his instagram which is like to me. It's a pretty big deal. You know like someone like that. you know. it's one thing to work on it. But he even like was kind enough to share it on his. You know sterling sound and with him was pretty great. That's awesome of before every talk and listen to the next track was just kicking ass. I want to you guys to talk about your upcoming shows that you have you have won the back. Nine on april third or you did have one on april third. Have another one in a three books. So far yes. We do died those events and the venues and hygiene organized law that. Yeah but where we are starting to slowly open back up. And it's an awesome gig This place the back. Nine lounges is a newer spot and they started hosting bands. You know we're making our debut there. This will be our first gig You know since you know covert or whatever we're still over the moon about russell going great and then the we have played a boxing event. Actually there's a fight event up in new hampshire that were providing entertainment for for that event. That's gonna be really cool. That's up in derry new hampshire and then That's in mid april and then We are doing Soundcheck studios that place. I was telling you about. They are like they're building a gigantic stage inside. It's going to be a killer venue. They're gonna get some really amazing amazing bands coming through the inside when that's ready. They're building it now. In the meantime they do outdoor concerts. They have a huge lot in. It's really like festival style. Everyone sits outside has a great time. And it's fantastic tables separate and all that things all safe and everything like that but it's just an amazing atmosphere the stage big. It's just a great atmosphere. So that's coming up and we're really excited about that too. Great sound mixing in to amazing sold across total. They're very awesome there. That's actually quite amazing. Uplifting a professional in the industry would take what happened with colbert in completely. Do a mind shift and do what he's doing totally. I'm impressed with him. So yeah the people that sound check their amazing top notch. the herman's are the dudes that on the they're just amazing. They started doing shows in the last fall. Even when code was going on you know they were all socially descent all everything they set up tables apart like that they have the space for it outside and they just did everything the right way and they were like they kept the community going You know i. It stopped once it got too cold. Obviously but now that it's starting to warm back up. The show is picking back up the outdoor shows. And it's they're just they are doing. They're doing amazing work. In soundcheck studios in pembroke mass launch. Check them out that pretty awesome. You can find them everywhere. Facebook and instagram and stuff. They're they're they're incredible place. I'd like to check out places like that. They are on my bucket list. I love boston. I used to spend summers in. Martha's vineyard all yet absolute and so saw my to do list of definitely so we're gonna talk about found So found would. I first heard it. I'll be honest with you. I listened to the music before. I read anything about it. I also thought it was a song about friends with benefits. It could be totally. That's what i say. Wow this really good. I'm glad that wasn't off the mark closer to the market. You think and then there was a girl lead new on. That won't stick around so was that did that. Come from your personal experience. I mean it came from personal experience thirty times. It's still know in all honesty a little bit from my past. I kind of do that. I have Some of the songs that right and they're like scenarios in my brain That like a personal experience. Maybe like that. I wanted to go differently or that went differently. Or like i create a scenario. And i think there's a little bit of that in the song where i like created some stuff as well as drew from some like personal stuff in my past but also elaborate on it you know and just let the story happen i i try not to filter anything you know when i right now. You don't feel sir. You know the the wrote with the steepness. They're very universal. Evenly seemed to be very personal music. I think that's what i think. Rock and roll could be. You know i feel like rock and roll is relatable. I try to have relatable songs. You try to write relatable songs. You know i i mean i write them. Obviously you know they come from me but it's not just personal like i love. The people are digging the music and wanna hear it and it's enjoyable. That makes me happy to. I like you know that's cool. It's definitely eighty style rock as fourth overall single and second of this year so an came on march. The reviews have been outstanding. It's been the i have to say. This has been the the reviews for found tech mark. Stephen and john and i in greg. We text all the time and i was found. I'm having trouble keeping up with the the some of the press in the reviews in the promo- like the playlist ads. And all the good things. I'm hearing it's it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming and it's just like. I never would have dreamed it. You know it's pretty. It's pretty wild house dude on charts so the rock charts a different. The show me in fishing a bike with the blues charts bluestar little out little more user-friendly you can access the blues charts. You know which is great. But the rock charts are like. It's amazing. The the rock charts. You go like. I think it goes up to the top. Two hundred. The ones that i looked at i tunes and it's all legacy artists. You're talking all the most famous songs in the world. That people are downloaded every day. So i don't even know that we crapped the top but as far as like ours the i. It's not you know it is what it is. It's bob scrape out of music out there. That people are digging. Our i care about but it is cool to see like it's been like you know you. Spotify is what it is but it does get used to a lot of people. And i love that about spotify and gotten you know it's it's been streamed like two thousand times in the first two weeks which is by far the most dreams we've had a string of a song in the first two weeks which is fantastic. Yeah so something doesn't sound right to me so they blues charts are user friendly and more indie artists freddie. I think maybe Saying that wrong. I think it's a popularity thing i mean. Would you say differently niche market so speaking to write a lot more blue songs threatening the process. So yeah it's it's just a different animal every genres but rock. It's like rock and pop. You know those are the two monsters in country really. Pop country are like those. Are the big players that like you know his charts. Then you're really. You know the stuff that happened in those charts. Yeah so did you think that there should be pressure on these people that do the playlist. two separate independent music with the nhl's that's a great question. That's a great question Great question i think. This is a whole larger thing of the state of music now but as an independent artists. There's so much work to do. And and and the this to keep it separate from a a big label thing i. That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know if i'm the one answer that but it's a it's a great question. Well given the fact that the payout to the artist is based on the of streets. Wouldn't be fair to the indie artists. Have something separate the voted to people. That are unsigned. That will just take a great great great. Yeah we're gonna listen to found right now. I can't see just wanna be found. I see scum. Just won't be e monday bit. I just wanted to be Another great track. You guys really can look forward to a really strong presence. In whatever space you decide to stay in rock or blues Putting out great music so much so. I already know that you in collaboration. That adam would Paul mccartney warren hayes from the allman brothers. I wanna know why seems stewart of diverse and. What are your your other. Two steve march during collaboration. So you want me to take the wipeout i with those ones. I guess i will do the For me like you said that was from another interview. I did where they asked me. Dream collaborations swimmer. The questions. I ask every once in a while i can see. I can see paul mccartney based on your music that warren hayes. I know he's outstanding. Sally artists. But i thought oh okay all of a sudden like chocolate cake in all of a sudden you five vanilla in the middle. No where come from the beatles to me led to the blues and the blues of you know of course led me to the allman brothers and i love warren haynes i mean him to me is like his voice his guitar playing his. You know the way. He manages this band as far as like the stage presence. The songs he picks the live performance love. Warren hands his producing everything. i'm just a A big warnings that would you find you promote better music. Collaborating with him than paul mccartney. That's a great question. I don't know i have to i. S i guess. I guess paul mccartney would be the only guy i would pick over one all say okay. Let's talk about warren. I would think he would choose. I you Steven yeah that's a great question Yeah living our dad. I don't know. I'd love to jam with jon. Bon from led zeppelin. Mugabe's him on drums. That'd be pretty awesome laura Backing up eddie. Van halen would have been incredible making music with them. Must be a phenomenal saw. You know any any of the greats living or dead. Just be amazing as a musician. You mark when you first question. Wasn't there kind of a fight direction. And i i would love to work with mike. Rj to Latronic artist of dj. Because he mixes and live drum tracks into his music. And i love that like dj shower dj or one of those charter set. Us live drum tracks in their mixes. It'd be really to lay down some tracks for something like that It's really cool and we're just more at. He's from oregon from portland oregon He's done some stuff like he did. The mad men theme his most famous piece but like he's got a lot of other around a lot of like Multiple albums of music times is pretty amazing. Show i'll the that. So what is the future for you guys. I know that you aimed put out more singles this year. Yeah we're we're working hardware we're just about buttoning up our next one. Hopefully we'll have that before too long and yet we're going to keep doing a single thing this year and then we're going to see where we stand at the end of the year as far as like what we wanna do. We you know we have material to do a record to just would just sort of weighing our options and see what's working best ross to build our audience and we want to get out there and play some cool shows and we want to. You know we're working on some regional gigs. More gigs around new england where we are We'd love to get out there to some new places and see some new faces and meet some new people and Just get our music out there to to to more people that want to hear. That's that's what it's all about for us. But did you guys get before copenhagen nope. We were gigging before what happened. Absolutely we actually rape bright one colon hit it was around saint patrick's day and We had like we were set to have our busiest months ever like we were really built. An all new rome's we were getting more into some cool rooms and boston and somerville surrounding towns and building up regionally a little bit getting to rhode island. We had some cool things lined up and it all of course got shut down but we we. We were about to be Really busy gigging. Hopefully that'll happen again. You know as as things start to come back to normal a little bit but you know the silver lining is that got us got us in the studio and got us making music. Yeah so total silver lining. They're always a sub online. No actual many artists have said that is they. Were so busy doing Tours and gigs. That that it sort of forced them to in for a better world. Just sit still and create. I think there's gonna be some amazing music that comes out of this from some people that are so many musicians have done. Just that or you know even banned said did some cover shows to make some money while they're writing originals than than last year. They haven't really had focused. On practicing and learning originals. Walk working on a main on covers working on originalist. And i think there's going gonna be explosion some pretty amazing music with you. I believe there's going to be exposed to music I know myself. As i'm dying to see a live gig and people that i know in my small circle other all die dakota alive show and the i think it could be like the nineteen twenties orange where people just said i'd have enough. I'm going to see people. I to hear live music and i think the beneficiary will be The indie bands local gigs Local venues festivals. I think i think people casino. Sometimes people value something more. Someone has taken away from them for sure. And so you know they're not gonna Save up their dollars for a four hundred dollar tickets to see a legacy band Not not to put in a negative on it. But i think people are going to be more apt to support their friends or local bands. A local festivals. Yeah because bottom line is I think people mess for sure for sure. So i hope so too awesome. That's where my money's going. So i just wanted to before we go. I just wanted to talk about you guys have a merch section on your site. Do talk a bit about your marriage. I can totally talk about it. But i'm going to defer to mark because mark is like the merchantman extraordinary just merch like you know. Obviously mark brings so much musically to the bad but mark is like an incredible yet like dot director. He's an incredible graphic designer artist in his own right and he designs like he's designed all our logo stuff. our shirts are everything right and even all album artwork. That's all our album. Artwork is mark lisi. He's that's awesome. Because i looked on your marriage page and i'm like i like it so you are you got to. I went to about mass coach of art. Boston for industrial design actually Working designer my my day job is a shoe designer. Actually but i love. I love creating all the time. So this is a whole different medium for The band gives gives me so much. Draw from every time new song comes out excited to create like whatever the graphic is we're gonna use for the lawrence like a really fun process. These guys are very supportive of that and krimmer has been fun to taking the logo. The base logo mix ended up in china. something that matches what we're working on at the time so involve it. It's fun very well. I would encourage everybody to jump on that merged pace great tank top. I love a good skunk black not yet it could s actually a really good. That's a good ad. had i love the black. I love the. We'll be sure to send you ones on by the way it. Honestly i by merchant indie band all the time. Actually almost you table right now. I have three to via l. Peace and a t shirt that i bought die believe in supporting india so i would love to have what but let me know when you have it and purchase went by so is the best place to download by your music follow you. I'm sure you're active on one at channel that more than others. Yes so the best place to find us like sort of one stop shop is our website. Which is the free band dot com and from there you can get anywhere. We have our links to our social media to You know our youtube. Our instagram facebook. Instagram is where. I'm trying to be most active and i definitely follow that up with facebook and try to get to youtube as much as i can to prove it a little. You know youtube content. I'm trying to be a little more selective with but i'm working on that and But yeah you can find us on our website. We'll get you at end. There's a link on the website to all remaining and tunes to say again. Antunes is wherever wherever you listen amazon anywhere where you can find us anywhere on all the streaming platforms. Yeah is on your website. Well thank you very much for coming on board. I really had a great time chopping cheese rate parachuting. I love what you. I love to music that creating together as a band and keep doing it because you really creating a very strong for yourself in in the music. area whether it's iraq. But where do you think you're gonna go. Blues rock to saint bluesy rock or rock and roll exploration that keeping in that umbrella. you know. we're not we're not Discriminated against cairo rock. We're just want to be just want to be. It's good keep doing that. Thank you very much for coming on board. Thank you say. Thank you so much. That was great. Well thank y'all for tuning in. If you enjoy listening to this podcast cleese share this episode with others and post about it on social media to catch the latest from the buzzer and upcoming shows. You can follow us on instagram. At the buzzer all media and on twitter at the buzzer indie. Catch the pod next episode on air in d. from two yours over the airways subscribe fees about surprise dot com cheers.

boston adam quincy Jeff rosen beatles owen bradley mark lover adams stephen berkeley college of music for marcanti paul mccartney betty krakatau mark Do marco becca baron john kitty wells Stephen anderson lpga joe tornado Stephen
BOX218: He's Got Albert Einstein's Eyes

The Box Of Oddities

38:34 min | 1 year ago

BOX218: He's Got Albert Einstein's Eyes

"What follows may not be suitable for all audiences listener. Discretion is advised Is Full of stories. Stories of mysteries of curiosities Jew in an giang through Gilligan for the strange the boozers the unexpected as the mid and wash asleep. You're inside the box oddities. Do not dead me thank you yeah. I work hard not to bid. Wouldn't see you work real hard. No that's true. I'm glad you're not dead too though. We had a bit of an incident here so of course everything's weird right now. There's a lot going on. There's the quarantine or the stay at home order. I should say We've been we've been here for three and a half weeks. I think something like that and of course. There's the the corona virus the the Cova did and then we had a freak snowstorm mid April dumped lake ten to twelve inches of snow on us. We lost our power for a day. It was real traumatic into minor earthquakes and two minute earthquakes here in the state of Maine. That's right the apocalypse so the kind of running joke is what's next locusts. So yesterday we had a wind storm. the brought down a giant tree directly next to our house that fell in between two other trees snapped in half half of the tree glanced off our house demolished. My Compost Bin and I was standing at the bathroom window. Probably ten feet from where the tree landed. Just fresh out the shower head. Get BACK IN THE SHOWER. He were standing there in the noodle. Yeah I was in. The noodle was very scary very scary and I was. I may have screeched out a little bit. And you're like what the Hell's going on and I came thundering into the bathroom and said Oh you're in the noodle and totally forgot why came in there but yeah it was a huge ancient oak. I mean the thing was probably ninety feet high a big old tree and it just came right down and Part of it hit our house and I notice today that there's another tree that blew over but it's hung up in some other trees just hanging over our house waiting so we have. We have that to look forward to. Hopefully we can get through these difficult times together though no real damage to the house though just scary risks. Really lucky that it didn't come through one of our window. We have much to be grateful for indeed Sir indeed. My List for today is not being decapitated by a falling tree that Buddha bowl that I made that Lebanon dressing. That was good. We also there was a tick in our house today. I saw the first ticket the season since the end of civilization as we know it. So I'M GONNA distract us from all of this hoop La with a story. According to Legend in seventy CE ROMAN EMPEROR TITUS ordered the city of Jerusalem sacked. He had his soldiers confiscate the two pillars from Solomon's Temple the Masonic Yaqeen and Boas and bring them to Rome now. According to the Bible Boas and yeah keen were the two pillars which stood on the porch of Solomon's Temple which was the first temple in Jerusalem. There are sometimes used as symbols in freemasonry and also the Tarot also. My sister had a chocolate lab named. Beau as they probably were not support structures. They were probably free. Standing based on similar pillars found in a nearby temples at at the time Emperor Titus had these according to legend pillars removed from Jerusalem and brought back to Rome and winning Rome. They were installed as the pillars of a Pagan Temple. And that temple was destroyed centuries later by the Christians But these two pillars remained standing so Christians built a church on the spot where the pillars were still intact. I love this repurposing. It's great the church however collapsed in an earthquake in the late eighteenth century so the pillars were then cut up on the orders of Sebastiano. Marchetto THE PATRIARCH OF PIANO. Making family and some of the would he made into a piano. How it's called the Sienna Piano Forte. More specifically the soundboard in the piano. They used wood from these pillars. Kind of like we were thinking that we would use some of the wood from this downed tree right. Make some sort of like commemorative shelf so Sabatino drew up the designs for the piano. This is according to Atlas Obscure and Wikipedia. He drew up the designs for the piano and started on it but died before he could finish. His son took up the task but then he died before he could finish it. Sabatino's grandson took over the task but like father couldn't devote as much time to his time to it as he would've liked and he died before finishing the project finally his son. Sabatino's great grandson. Nicodemo ferry finished the piano while his cousin Carlos Bartolozzi carve the outside with beautiful intricate work. The finished piano was considered the pride of. What is this like two hundred years later like a hundred years later? What is this one hundred years later about? Twenty five years and that twenty four. Pm Pumping amount was great grandson. His great grandson. Yeah they're not. Pno's you mean children. Yeah yeah that's it well. I said he was pretty elderly and his son was pretty elderly. I guess I mean. It's mathematically possible the piano forte. It's also called the immortal piano and the harp of King David. It's it's timber is similar to both piano and Harpsichord. It's kind of like a combination of the two things and also do to the legend that it was partially built from wood that came from the pillars of the Temple of Solomon. It's considered the spiritual descendant of the Harp of David. Most critics say it's best for playing works of art like Mozart. After his grandson put the finishing touches on the instrument he then gave it to his sister. Rebecca who lived further south in Sienna there. The Piano became something of a local attraction and was regularly played in public performances. It was favored for its unique sound. And you want to hear what it sounds like. Yes please almost any yeah. It's it's definitely a cross between a piano and Harpsichord sound with. Maybe a little music box mixed in. It's got a real delicate. Kind of air spatial lightness. I keep saying delicate but it sounds yes. It sounds good meat. Yeah and they say that. It's because of the soundboard that was made from the wood from these ancient pillars from Solomon's Temple. That's that's the legend. The Marquee of thought that the piano was such a special sound that it deserved more special looks around eighteen. Sixty two artists were hired to give the exterior. An upgrade. One of them was again. Nicodemo ferry so the work ultimately spanned four generations of the same family now. According to the piano an encyclopedia the finished product still fully functional. Piano was adorned with carvings of the Ten Commandments. about twenty different cherubs and the likeness of George Friedrich Handel in also. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Among other several several other composers it represented Sienna in the eighteen. Sixty seven Paris world's fair. Oh Wow after the eighteen sixty seven Paris world's fair it was then gifted to the Italian Crown Prince Umberto. Franz litz play the instrument at the Prince's wedding as Umberto later ascended to the throne. The instrument became known as the king's piano and was played at the palace by members of the Royal Family also courtiers and renowned musicians. One musician who longed to play. It was Madison Out Ski. He was a Russian Jewish refugee. Who's playing had impressed Umberto? The king had told Hausky about the piano but he was assassinated before you know ski could come and play in the court so he never got his chance. It was something that he really really wanted to do. He was haunted by this missed opportunity so as he grew older. He urged his grandson avner. Carney himself a budding musician to one day. Try to play the piano in his honor. The sounds like the premise of a movie it does. This would make a great movie right. So Kearney tried as far as we know but he lacked the connections to get an invitation to the Italian court and then he had bigger problems to deal with because the Nazis came to in in nineteen forty. You know and that kind of upset everything with think and that is. When the immortal piano the piano forte disappeared. Thank goodness a because Nazi stole everything. They stole the piano. Yes yeah I was hoping someone like made of his shelter for it or something Nazis. The Nazis looted many prizes. Invaluable works of art in it appeared that the immortal piano was one of them and it seemed like Carney would never get his chance to fulfill the promise to his grandfather of playing the Sienna Piano Forte again. According to Atlas obscure a couple of years passed in one thousand nine hundred forty two after the German forces were driven out of El Alamein in northern Egypt. Karmi was employed by the British army to accompany them to North Africa to assist in a land. Mine sweeping assignment. Which that must have sucked. Yeah they go out into the desert with these metal detectors and they're sweeping the desert sand looking for unexploded munitions as they were working one particular grid quadrant every time they past the metal detector over it they could hear music coming out of the ground top so they dug and buried beneath the sand was a piano encased in plaster and it strings vibrated in response to the magnets of the minesweepers reasons. Nobody could really understand. The Nazis had lugged first of all the encased in plaster and then loved the instrument through the Libyan desert all the way to El Alamein before abandoning it upon retreat. Karmi's like oh. Wow cool piano. But it's encased in plaster. The cabinet is so he didn't know what it was. Even though this was the instrument that his grandfather had asked him to play in his honor. That doesn't how is that even possible? I I don't know I don't know. If it was curiosity appreciation or sheer indifference. The British opted to not destroy the instrument. They loved it themselves to Tel Aviv. Carney decided the piano must have had some value so he transported it to another station. About two hundred miles a British officer pronounced that it was rubbish and consigned it to a burn pile but but carney objected because he loved pianos and he cleaned some of the sand under the strings and strummed. Them and the officer agreed that it sounded pretty nice in he relented. The Piano was then restored. Hastily by army it was used entertain troops for by a traveling show that took it all over the desert then to Sicily and Italy and onto Palestine which was not yet Israel still encased in plaster. He did not know it was the CNN Piano Forte. How do you play piano? That's encased in plaster. I'm confused the cabinet. The cabinet work was encased in Plastic L. It was just the he available chip that shed off. How do you not know inside? Karmi never got to play it. He restored it or helped. Get it working again. And then they took it and he lost contact after the traveling show broke up in Palestine. The Piano was sold to a junk dealer in Tel Aviv. He tried to get it properly tuned but no one understood the strange action of this particular mechanism in disgust. He left it in a junk yard from their. The Piano passed through several owners. But none discovered secret. When Carney left the military he retired to Israel told his wife. He wanted to reopen his piano shop. His wife and children then took him to see a piano. That was simply sitting in the street badly in need of restoration of a first job. He was shocked to see the old plaster. Now Strauss ity hid rescue in north Africa three decades earlier. He took it back to his shop and saw that. No one had tuned it because they didn't know how one story says that a truck driver delivered the piano when paying he and Carney argued. The driver began banging his fist on the plaster piano and some of the Plaster became dislodged. One crack opened another and another and within a short while it all fell away leaving the true piano visible an amazing ornate old thing excitedly carney ran to his desk withdrew a photo of the piano forte that he kept all these years and recognized that it was the very same instrument. Dob that's unreal. And he made that that delivery truck driver go away right. Yeah Yeah Yeah Right. Yeah. Here's your money get Outta here. This has been played by some of the greats. It was shown Stein Way Hall in the United States. Some of the greatest pianists in history have played this piano. Carmen wife wrote a book about the piano. Titled the Immortal Piano is daughter. Finally sold it in Nineteen ninety-six to a private collector for one million dollars. The most recent owner put the instrument up for auction just this year in fact it went it was on Ebay in January of twenty twenty wow listed with a buy it now price of two million dollars but apparently it did not sell because it was listed for auction in Israel in mid March of two thousand twenty. It was expected to fetch a million dollars. Us. I couldn't find an actual amount that it sold four but speculation is it was somewhere in the three hundred thousand dollar range. Yeah so there's there's the story of the immortal piano the piano forte and again this comes mostly from an article from atlas obscure as well as some details From wikipedia. What a roller coaster. Not something that was incredible. That's I thought that was an amazing story. The odds of those things coming together like they did. And even though the part of it being built from the pillars of Solomon's Temple that's legend and that there's no way to really prove that it is possible according to atlas obscure because all of the things that That they say happened. There's documentation of it being moved from here to there. And then this being built in you know whatever so it is theoretically possible that that that's where that came from but It is considered legend. The rest of it is true. Wow that thing. In the middle of today's thing in the middle of five breakfast cereals that didn't make it and we're glad from ULLAH DOT COM number five wacky starting in nineteen sixty five wacky promoted banana flavored marshmallows. As if it was a good thing number. Four fruit brute. Fruit Brute was another addition to the Monster Mascot General Mills Lines so like the Count Chocula etc but the breakfast loving werewolf not such a great way to get kids to want breakfast. He was too violent and scared children so nobody wanted to eat the number three. Ok's the only thing okay about okay. So was that it had come out prizes on the box. Each of them. A Scottish bodybuilder awesome. I bet those are collectible. But they are now yeah number. Two Quiz Quiz Quiz was the alien mascot of the sixties cereal duo of quispe and quake was a sweet flavor but The serial quote can't be kept down and that could have referred to millions of young stomachs trying to process a serial whose only true success was vintage set of online auction. Limited edition toys. You liked by. Did Quispe was just captain crunch and a different shape and the whole quispe versus quake thing it was exactly the same serial just two different shapes quiz was flying saucers. Quake was little gears. Now you think captain crunch will cut your mouth up. You ought to try captain crunch shaped like little gears. I actually found a box of quiz for you for your birthday or something a few years ago. And your reaction when you opened. It was the best thing I've ever seen immediately sat down on the floor. Cross-legged eight a bowl of it and watched bugs bunny cartoons on youtube truth and finally crunchy logs. Sounds more like a medical condition. Indeed some sort of a lower intestinal thing crunchy logs box of oddities with cat. And Jeff through Gilligan smell gray. That's one of the things that really I love about you is that you do not stink. Thank Yale but now on top of never stinking smell. Great and a not chock full of aluminum right. Yeah we're talking about native deodorant it's it's a deodorant. That does not contain aluminum. Note the a lot of deodorants do in aluminum plugs. Up Your sweat glands to keep you from sweating I you know. That's not appealing to me. No it's like. Oh there's this thing that smells bad we're just GONNA keep it inside of you I way of a paste of something that will keep it in. I just don't like it anyway. Native comes in a wide variety of options for men women and teens and they offer an unscented option and at Baking Soda Free Formula For those with sensitivities it's safe native. Deodorant is formulated without aluminum. Parabens Talq it's also Vegan and never tested on animals. Why take care of your skin in all parts except for your armpits? Your armpits don't deserve less love in the thing about native. Is it works. Making the switch to an aluminum. Freedom veteran does not mean you have to sacrifice on performance. Native will keep you smelling fresh and feeling fresh all day long and natives. Not just about your underarms. Thank you very much sir. Natives also got toothpaste. Most natural toothpastes feel gritty. And there's not that foam that you enjoy so much that makes your mouth feel clean. But that's not the way it is with native out over nine thousand nine thousand five star reviews from happy customers who made the switch to native. I've got the toothpaste coming. I love the fact that there's too many flavors with the option of floride or floride free. It'll keep your mouth squeaky clean for twenty percent off your first purchase visit native deodorant DOT COM and use. Promo code box during checkout. That's twenty percent off your first purchase NATIVE DEODORANT DOT COM use. Promo Code Box at Checkout. Not only are you getting a great product and saving twenty percent. But you are supporting the box of on. And that's why you can find the details in our show. Notes New podcast. That's more fun than a barrel. Full of monkees okay. That was an expression before. Animal rights became a thing a great now. Cats really pissed because she thinks we're promoting animal abuse and exploitation. And we're not an Jeff Rosen a weird spot because we met him I so you know what? Just fuck it. This is. The box of oddities curtis left us this message. So I'm at work listening to this episode. It was door to door monkey salesman and for some reason it started skipping on my phone. Well only part of it. When jethro says the phrase showing his penis it just starts repeating that over and over again showing his penis showing his penis showing penis. Good thing I was the only one working in the kitchen at the time. That's amazing. I planned it that way. Curtis thank you for reaching out with that delightful story. That's the kind of thing we need. I remember an old friend of mine. Who worked in radio way back in the old days told me a story about how in on Sunday Mornings. They had to play really just programming and it was like about a half an hour show and it came in on an LP. Like I like an album an old record album and you put the needle down on it and it would play and he figured I got a half an hour. I'm going to run over to Dunkin donuts and get something to eat. So he runs across the street and they have the radio on at Dunkin donuts and apparently the record was skipping and it was just going. Jesus Christ Jesus Christ Jesus Christ Jesus Christ. Yeah you got fired anyway. What do you got for me? What you what you want you want you. Whenever you're ready. Play the what you got for me. That means I'm ready all right. We're GONNA talk about Albert Einstein's eyeballs. Okay April Seventeenth. Nineteen Fifty Five Albert. Einstein experienced internal bleeding caused by the rupture of an abdominal AORTIC aneurysm. He actually refused surgery. Saying I want to go when I want it's tasteless to prolong life. Artificially I've done my share. It's time to go and I will go elegantly. And he did his share. I love him so he took a draft of a speech that he was working. On for a television appearance commemorating the state of Israel seventh anniversary with him to the hospital so he could work on it while he was dying but he wasn't able to get it finished before he did. Pass away at the age of seventy six continuing to work up until the point that pretty much he died but before we go on to talk about what happened after he died. Let's talk a little bit about. I'm Stein of course. Albert Einstein. was a German born theoretical physicist. Who developed the theory of relativity? He was born in March of eighteen. Seventy nine he's best known to the general public for his equals. Mc squared formula. Einstein started teaching himself. Calculus at the age of twelve and as a fourteen year old. He said he had pretty much mastered differential calculus in one thousand nine five which is called his miracle year he published four groundbreaking papers which attracted the attention of the academic world and That's where he first outlined a theory of the photoelectric effect. The second paper explained Brownian motion. The third paper introduced special relativity and the fourth was about mass energy equivalence so that year he was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich. He was twenty six. He received the one thousand nine hundred ninety one Nobel Prize in Physics for his services to theoretical physics and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect which is a pivotal step in the development of quantum theory. But there are some things that we don't know that much about when it comes to Einstein. Of course it's his achievements and the things that he contributed to science that we should be talking about this other stuff but the other stuff's kind of interesting too so here we go so from an early age. Albert Einstein loathed nationalism of any kind. He didn't want to be German anymore so he renounced being a German citizen He said he was a citizen of the world and was officially stateless until he became a Swiss citizen in one thousand nine hundred one according to National Geographic in nineteen thirty three the FBI began keeping a dossier on Einstein shortly before his third trip to the US. This file would grow into almost fifteen hundred pages of documents focused on the fact that he was friends with Socialists. And with some concern that you know the the big communism fear J. Edgar Hoover even recommend that Einstein be kept out of the states by the Alien Exclusion Act but he was overruled by the US. State Department's J. Edgar Hoover also wanted to keep John Lennon out of the United States along with Richard Nixon reasons. In fact did you know during that time period. The title of the current. Elton John Album of the time was a reference to Nixon and that album was madman across the water. A you know that I did not know that okay back to Albert Einstein. Which by the way was the real name for actor. Albert Brooks Albert Brooks is a treasure defending your life is a great movie watching its trail. Meryl Streep is a treasure. My mom calls her Merle. It's so weird. Every time she references Meryl Streep she calls her. Merle streep as though her name is m. e. r. l. moral. She watches a lot of her films on net flex anyway. Einstein's is. Einstein anticipated that he would win the Nobel Prize and so he promised that to his then wife if she would agree to grant him a divorce. That award ended up being about thirty two thousand dollars which was more than ten times the annual salary of the average professor at that time so she made out. Okay he really wanted to divorce her so he could marry his first cousin. Okay that sounds familiar. Yeah the Second Mrs Einstein was Elsa Her last name was also Einstein all that saved on monogrammed and address labels absolutely a few days. After the first president of Israel died in nineteen fifty two Einstein was asked if he would accept the position of being the second president of Israel. He was seventy three at the time and he declined the offer stating that. He lacked the natural aptitude and experience to deal properly with people. It's kind of like what Oprah said when they were trying to push her run for president you remember that she goes now. That's just not my makeup. I I know what my limitations are. I kind of always refer back to that quote. I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me. I always think that the kind of people who want to be president oftentimes aren't necessarily the people who'd be best at being president and it's often the case that was was that Groucho Marx. Sounds like Groucho doesn't it? Yeah so part of Einstein's charm was his disheveled. Look he had that crazy uncombed hair and another one of the fun little quirks about him was that he never wore socks really. Yeah he said that he were. They were a pain because they often got holes in them. So why wear them at all? So he was thinking in a whole different level he was on a whole different level. Anyway he has kicked it. It's nineteen fifty fifty five and we're at Princeton Hospital and Thomas Harvey. Who was a pathologist of that hospital? Decided he was going to go ahead with an autopsy. Einstein had pretty specific instructions for him. His remains cremate them and scattered them secretly so that people couldn't like come and worship at his grave. He was very concerned about what he called. Idolators he didn't want that it was just. I'm not here anymore. Let's all move on That's admirable Thomas. Harvey did not have permission to perform this autopsy. Nor did he have the legal right to remove and keep the brain? Yeah this is weird so when it came to light a little bit later that he had in fact performed an autopsy and snatched brain rate out of Einstein's head. He had to go to Einstein's son Hans Albert and kind of get a retroactive blessing. Which his son I guess gave with some has I mean what are you GonNa do now. It's already been done. He wasn't thrilled about it but he did have some stipulations that any investigations would be conducted solely in the interest of science and that the results if any of interest would be published in reputable scientific journals so Harvey Preserved Einstein's brain in in. Let's keep in mind that Thomas Harvey was not a brain specialist wanting to scrape it out like it was like a watermelon rind. Something like that so he was. I mean he was a doctor. But he didn't have special brain knowingness knowing knees. He wasn't a big brain guy man. He just didn't have the expertise to undertake the studies that he had proposed to Albert Einstein. Son It was kind of Shitty while he was in there. He also removed Einstein's eyeballs which he then gifted to Einstein's doctor Henry Abrams within months of this autopsy Harvey was dismissed from Princeton Hospital for refusing to surrender this specimen after he lost his job. He took the brain to Philadelphia Hospital. Where a technician section did into over two hundred blocks and embedded the pieces using a variety of methods. Harvey gave some of the pieces to Harry Zimmerman. Who was his like mentor? I guess and then he placed the remainder into jars which he stored in the basement of his home in Princeton. So Einstein's brain spent some time in a university of Pennsylvania lab in jars in Harvey's basement and when Harvey moved to the Midwest for a period he his brain bits lived a cider box stashed under a beer cooler according to ABC News. This guy moved around a bunch like six times and every time he took the brain pieces with them Even after he lost his medical license he just kept lugging around these brain bits. Please tell me that they didn't end up in a yard sale. No they did not In the early nineteen ninety s harvey returned to Princeton in Nineteen ninety-seven. He embarked on a cross country road trip with a freelance magazine. Writer named Michael Pattern. Eighty Harvey wanted to meet Einstein's granddaughter in California and so they took this track together. The writer was eager to write about this weird shit that was going down and do. Einstein's granddaughter know that some Rando is going to show up with peux PAS brain unclear They just packed it. In the trunk of Harvey's Buick Skylark and made their way across the country. While Harvey had toyed with the idea of giving the brain parts to the granddaughter He even accidentally left it there for a period of time but he went back and got it because she didn't want it it wasn't until one thousand nine hundred five. That harvey was contacted by a Berkeley researcher. And she'd read about the brain and the guy that had it and thought. Okay here's an opportunity for me to do some work and this might be a good boost for the study that I wanna do because if I can do a study involving Albert Einstein's brain that's going to be much more interesting story than Study involving anyone else's brain right for sure pretty much anyone in history so she was conducting experiments that involved brains that had access to stimulating environments So she was using rats. And if you had like a very sterile environment versus if you had a very interactive exciting environment. What how your brains would react and Basically it didn't work out great. Her tests were flawed They were slammed for irregularities and the preparation techniques weren't great plus. Her reporting was great so she had something like twenty six pieces of the brain that she was working with and then only reported the results of four that she had involved in the study. So that shows that I mean she basically left out the pieces of brain. That didn't behave the way that she wanted to very selective. Yeah so Dr Harvey had. What's left this brain? And he was looking for people to do studies on it but he was also very protective of it. He wanted it to be used for very specific purposes but also didn't want to give it away. It was just very weird relationship and so after many many years harvey eventually donated the remainder of Einstein's brain to the pathology department at Princeton Hospital which is probably where it should have been the entire time. Entire time. the parts of it. That didn't make it there where the parts that had already been lent out for that scientific study and pieces that you can see at the motor museum. There Twenty microns thick and stained with crystal violet their preserved in glass slides on display That he did donate before donating the rest back to the Princeton Hospital. I don't remember seeing that. I don't remember seeing that at the motor. Either to be fair. There was a lot going on in that museum and it would have been very easy to overlook which overlooking Einstein's brain. What but there was a lot going on there. Some of which made me a little sick to my Tom. Tom And finally Einstein's eyeballs are kept in a safety deposit box in New York City to this day. Word is that Occasionally there's discussion of them going up for auction but they live in. Is it legal to sell body parts? Not sure not sure mean. That's a gray area. Maybe gray matters how you wanted to go with them anyway. Einstein's eyeballs. Which in this here. I wrote Einstein's edge balls which a whole different thing. Yeah well at least the they're being kept safely in a safe deposit box as opposed to hanging from somebody's rear view mirror right or in a cigar box under someone schooler in a basement. So that's the remarkable travels of Einstein's brain the end I just can't help but think that if Einstein was like you know in heaven looking down on what was going on like in the late eighties. Early nineties thinking really a Buick. Skylark eight the west coast. Thanks for hanging out with us. You beautiful freak. We we really appreciate you taking the time out of your week to spend a little bit of us. Look forward to hanging out with your next time. Keep lying that freak flag fly it proudly beautiful and so let it be known that the box of oddities belongs to and its fate is in your hands. Therefore it's been requested by those two to beseech you for assistance. We ask one thing of you to provide a five star rating and positive review true. That is two things however is merely a five star rating and a positive also. Subscribe to US okay. So three things is always asking three things and three things only henceforth the box of oddities commits to the telling of stories stories of the strange the bizarre the unexpected the box dot com. I'll be right. Twenty twenty all rights reserved.

Albert Einstein Solomon's Temple Thomas Harvey Jerusalem Carney El Alamein Rome Nicodemo ferry Karmi Israel Maine Sienna Israel Gilligan United States Princeton Hospital Jeff Rosen Cova King David
AT#735 - Amazon River Cruise in Peru and Colombia

The Amateur Traveler Podcast

38:54 min | 6 months ago

AT#735 - Amazon River Cruise in Peru and Colombia

"Bags back on the road and read. It's real fast. Board tampa traveler episode seven hundred and thirty five today the amateur traveler talks about catfish and caimans jungles and tuk-tuks vs and parana as we take the slow boat on the amazon in peru and colombia. Welcome to the amateur traveler. I'm your host chris christensen. Let's talk about the amazon. I'd like to welcome to the show. Will conway from the baggage. Claim podcast ed. Hey baggage claim dot com. Who's come to talk to us about. The north west amazon will welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate. Where are we talking about specifically. Let's put it on a map here. I her for show. So we're we're talking about a very specific stretch of the amazon rainforest. Really the sun river that takes us from matisse here which is the southeastern most city in columbia all the way down the river and into peru to keep dose which is very large sprawling metropolis in the middle of the amazon rainforest and northeastern Excellent and why should someone go to this part of the world. Why should someone go the amazon. Yeah i think one of the things. I really wanna talk about an advocate for in. This conversation is that. I think the amazon is a lot more accessible than people. Think now. if you're listening to this and you're into things like disneyland in cruises you can imagine that this would necessarily be the rice right fit as as fun as those things can be. But if you're considering a trip to something like thailand or switzerland the amazon has come with this. I think the stigma this imposing almost intimidating quality. That if i go to the amazon i may die. You mean that thing that that thing the piranhas in the snakes in the mysterious river of death that that kind of thing. Yeah yeah pretty much. I think it just ends up getting skipped. I know i came in with a certain level of fear and i ended up finding the amazon a lot more accessible. The people are incredibly warm in courteous and helpful and a whole it took about a day or two to ease into it but once i did i ended up backpacking for about eight months. This was about two weeks. May trip is the most incredible said memories. That i have for my entire trip will tell us more about the itinerary. You have in mind force. Where are we going to start. Yes so we're going to start in the teesta. Which if you think about colombia as a country might new head kind of have a trapezoid block comes from panama over brazil down to peru and ecuador if you really have to zoom in down on a map there's actually this sort of it would be a peninsula except that it's entirely landlocked down in the southeast corner. That stretches all the way down to the amazon river. And that's where the is so. The tci is a small cities like forty fifty thousand people in really stand as like get like an outpost on the edge of the rainforest at first latifa is gonna feel like any traditional small town in columbia. If you've spent much time in colombia to feel similar to that but for context a really warm and inviting but simultaneously this edgy atmosphere. Which will feel similar. But then all the sudden these elements creep in you. Just get this sense that you know. This isn't traditional columbia. Traditional south america. I i'm sort of in this alternative world so i'll give you an example that there's a park in downtown the tc. It's called park sentence. Dead and sentended for twenty two hours out of the day. Looks like any other park in south america kinda got. The plaza are misfield with beautiful fountain in the middle a catholic church off to the side street vendors and men smoking cigars and park benches and then at about four o'clock in the evening you hear the faraway screeching sounds and within five minutes. The sky is entirely black and there are thirty thousand. They're called monk winged parakeets that are screeching and swooping so low that you have to duck because they're weaving in and out. This happens for about two hours every night and then they sort of go to sleep in it. It chills off but the whole city just gets come by the sensation specifically this one park Interesting and you were talking about latisha shown where it is just so people can put it on a map. We're talking about a little panhandle of columbia and that wrangler latisha is basically is where brazil and colombia and peru. all meet. Yeah that's exactly right. You can actually walk into brazil from the teacher and zanu just crossed the line. Depending on the time of the year. Your watch is going to have to go. Go back one or two hours because you've crossed over officially to brazil and then there is this little bow on the amazon river. That houses one lady. Who is working for the colombian government. She's the exit from columbia next door. There's another lady sitting there and she's stamps it into peru. I'm sorry and all of a sudden transition to peru canada. What else are we going to do. Well we're in lucia before we get on the river here. I would highly recommend latifah itself. It's going to be sort of limited in what you can do but there are few things that you can absolutely start latisha. One of them is. I would recommend. I've by the way no relationship with the person. I'm about to say. So i i want to name that going forward because i had a wonderful experience at this hostel called casa de And honestly i had to google that before we had a conversation today. Crispy cause mayhem Louise's hostile and the best ones are right. The best ones are associated with the person who runs it. yeah. I get this unbelievably warm and inviting her. Cinches been running this hostile for decades. And she's in her mid sixties just the sweetest person in my brain. I'm pretty confident that she actually runs of latisha. She seems to know everybody. She's kind of built. This little. take matriarchies issues unbelievable. But she actually helped me in a close friend of mine. Organized tore down the river so there are basically two ways to operate a down. The river towards iquitos one is fast. Boat and one is the slow boat. The fast boat is going to be a bumpy twelve hour ride on a speedboat jetboat. Okay yes japa- it's gonna take you quickly down down the amazon and it stops off once every two hours now. I haven't taken the full way to akitas. But i was on this boat for forty five minutes to our time to go to sort of increasing. We'd distant and remote villages down the amazon river and from there. You can end up with different tour. Guys are gonna take your do different things so one of the most unbelievable things that you can do in the amazon is actually at night. They'll take you out on a small dory and you'll cower down the amazon into these little tributaries and go basically fishing for cannons. Which are these outside two foot long. Alliens yeah exactly exactly and the night. I did it. It was just me and my friend. Jeff rosen irish. Guy met and this guide that we were with. Who is this young guys like tony to twenty three. The sky was blanketed in these really thick clouds and the moon was poking through. The whole world can ahead this silver tint and we're shining flashlights. In every once in a while you'd catch these red is it's a crocodile. Two foot long less intimidating crocodile we slowly approach and then we were terrible at it. A bit submerging. Swim away long before we ever got the. But that was kind of a blast. Can you say fishing for came in. So you're not using a rod and reel. i know no net based got up and then if you are incredibly adventurous and aggressive guide. You're going with your bare hands. But i had no coming for that. Maybe maybe you're going with. Your guide can go for his bare hands. And your best friend can. I wouldn't recommend it through south candidate. Yeah so that. That was unbelievable. One thing you do with rod and reel with a bamboo rod which is kinda fascinating in basically a little bit of twine at the end. Is you go fishing for piranhas. Which is pretty wild okay and if you think about the classic saying about parameters of denver responding to motion this is entirely true. If you're used to normal fishing where you kind of let it set a new out the Real to say you essentially want to trick the fish into believing you're not there with peron. It's the opposite. You bang the bamboo against the surface of the water and try to attract them and they just come swarming in. It's pretty wild okay. And by the way one of the easiest things you can do can there are. There are quite a few of them. Can't going back to the fear that amazon could kill me. Yes maybe i shouldn't have led with rana anything else before we get on the boat here. You're you're taking the slow boat. Yes so we took the slow boat. If we're talking about a lesson right now res- ten days or seven days or two weeks. The sailboats gonna take give for five so the fast boat might be your decision here. I had a wonderful experience on this slow boat. I think there's something to be said for sinking into sort of this experience of having nothing to do except watch the world's most powerful river flow by because that was an unbelievable experience. Now if i quickly google river trips on the amazon. I'm gonna find something where i've got this luxury cabin and it's gonna be five hundred dollars a night and there's going to be probably a steward for my cabin and gourmet meals. We're not talking about that right. We're talking about something more of a backpacker budget. I'm sure somebody could tell you a story about a luxury liner on. I am not a person chris. That's fine so what are we talking about. If you had to describe the boat so where are you sleeping first of all. You don't have the luxury cabin. I wouldn't say there's a single cabin in this boat so the way this this ship is set a think about a a reasonably sized family. But that's gonna be three stories tall big white ferry. The ground floor is transporting goods basically between latisha and keeps us so that floor their big crates a fruit the livestock on our as as welsh's under supplies and things like that and the two floors above that when you enter the boat or completely hollow it just totally empty big open cavernous floors and then you have to buy a hammock in advance. You string up the hammock and that ends up being your sort of home base so me and my friend jeff hung up our hammocks and there. We live four four days on this rusty old ferry that taxes us down the river. It's pretty wild and you have to buy a hammock. If i had my own hammock would just be buying the spot. So you're essentially paying for the spot on the boat. We're not talking about a lot of money here. We're talking about what was the number is i believe. Eighty thousand colombian pesos. Which is going to translate to about twenty bucks twenty five bucks here. S were many days for report about this new housing so pretty much exactly the same as what we were talking about at the five hundred dollars a day. Yeah pretty much the same experience. So that's gonna buy me a place to string my hammock and then meals are on. Top of that meals are included. I wouldn't consider the meals to the phenomenal. I was expecting now. There's also a little snack bar where you can get a cheeseburgers and things like that on the boat. They've bars out there to a little bit of a community. Feel there's music playing. There's all sorts of interesting people. Most of whom are blue collar working class folks from peru colombia brazil who are basically commuting to one or the other city between the teeth indicates us and we talk about meals for some rice and beans and something else. I'm guessing. yeah yes so. If you're familiar with columbia there's a staple dish. In central colombia visit be it's called bendix. Hope heiser when he get to the amazon. It's essentially the same meal then. There hope says essentially just going to be rice and beans and other chicken or beef depending on the situation. On the you're gonna sub that out for fish for fisher. There are a lot of amazing things about the amazon. The food is not one of them not a particular. So yeah you're gonna you're gonna end up on this boat for days. We had four nights and the morning of the fifth day. That experience was at first kind of intense. You end up read. There's nothing to do you on this boat and they're not there to entertain you and not at those rates. They're there to get transportation transport you from it'd be and that's that's really the priority. The experience ends up becoming incred. I found it. Be incredibly like meditative cathartic. In sort of beautiful sense he can sit on the ballot. This ship and the boat is moving so slowly that if you were walking on the shore next to the boat you'd be moving at about the same pace so it's crawling up the amazon when you were going upstream. Yes yes it coming. The other direction understanding is the trip is actually one day shorter. Ever done it that way. But that's because the current so you're on this boat you watch the world go by and the year on this incredibly wide thick muddy river and he end up seeing some wild things. If you said at the ballot this boat for long enough at one point it took me probably twenty minutes tied. Densify what i was looking at there was something swimming next to the boat That was at first. I thought like a bear Wise i thought something of that magnitude about fifteen twenty minutes later. Somebody else came out and i speak very little spanish but it was like kiss and basically he at his head it was a catfish. Catfish decides it a prius mark. It was okay that we're talking about a big animal but then you're just gonna watch these beautiful hereon swoop and little villages go by people motoring down with dory's it's very peaceful very cathartic experience in is the boots vote is gonna stop along the way and pick up and drop off people at different stops. Yes but very infrequently maybe once a day okay and does it then crews at night or does it stay in porter. No we're cruising at night. You're making progress all night long. The thing that's interesting about the night is it often rains in the amazon. That's rainforest better checks out so me and my irish friend. Jeff sat on the dow this ship one night. Light drizzle was coming down and you can see at the treeline than it just goes flat for miles and miles and miles. We're watching this just intense fork light income down in every direction but it was dead silent. You didn't actually hear the lightning. It was just incredibly beautiful experience. 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Even when things get back to normal you can save ten percent on better help him through ama- traveler by going to better help dot com. That's h. e. l. p. better help dot com slash traveler and thanks to better help for sponsoring this episode of amateur traveler. So you mentioned going out in fishing for caymans one night. Was that off voters before you got on the boat that was prior to it. So can you kind of did batista and from the tci. Through casa de as and. Louisa did this three day toward down the amazon to what essentially amounted to increasingly remote villages of fifty or a hundred people and it was during the course of that that we did the fishing for both came in and browns and we say downward doing downriver which in this case is to our east yeah yes exactly. So we're talking about a very odd stretch of the river. Where does a kind of curves so. I'm using downriver up river probably in the wrong direction here. But i'm thinking about it in terms of which way we were powering and escape. We're powering towards the kito. Okay up river okay. Yeah yeah my count it. It's so for this part of the trip. We want to bring a good book in a pair of binoculars. What else should i bring with me to get the most out of this part of the trip. You should bring a good book and a pair of binoculars. There isn't a lot else. I would make sure. Your iphone is fully charged and downloaded with every podcast. Every episode of the traveler's. Always have that so exactly exactly so. This is an external power. Brecca might be useful to because you're not having a place to plug in. Your ear is what it sounds like the guy who runs the little snack bar there. Yep has on the boat. we're on. He had one functioning power black. And you would let you plug it in an hour at a time for. I think it was like two thousand colombian pisses fifty cents gannet. You're gonna wanna parabak. I didn't have my phone died before the first night. So i was. I was just reading canada and the end up justice bizarre two. There's this psychological thing that happens. The answer the amazon which start starting the tci. And if you've just flown in from the us say just flew out of phoenix new yorker san jose. You've just come from this. Large metropolis at first latisha is gonna feel like this. Outpost like almost dairy large campsite with motorbikes. But then you go down the river in you end up in these tiny little villages into those folks into you. After two days latisha becomes the big city so the entire world transforms and your relative understanding of scale becomes entirely different in these. Little villages is the dominating factor and people are just working around it. But then you take the boat into a key dose. It's a sprawling metropolis of five hundred thousand people sober context atlanta's like four hundred and ten thousand. I think so. This is a huge city and it has an incredibly odd distinction of being the largest city in the world that is inaccessible by road. So you have to either fly into akitas or you have to vote in the way. We can't get their bicarbonate like could you imagine if you couldn't couldn't drive into at that team's wild then you end up in a keita's which is an absolutely wonderful wonderful city. It has a similar energy to a lot of cities in south america with chew twists. One is the twist i applied to latisha. Which is sort of this. Understanding of the amazon surrounding it in a very serious since in the other is this twist of mysticism or spirituality. Which i i want to identify your listeners. Iquitos is the capital is sort of comes from this long tradition of pre colonial indigenous people in south america who had lean spiritually into iowa. Which is the psychedelic day. Actually they won't call it a drug so if you call drug you'll you'll get a stern look in talking to they call it medicine and their shannon's in the guide these retreats. It's deeply catholic city but that autism is twisted in interconnected with this mysticism that's tied deeply into the surrounding nature. And this ritualistic psychedelic experience. That folks from that part of the world often partaken okay. I would highly recommend iquitos as a jumping off. Point for sort of visit to the natural world in terms of things to do in a key. Does this city is really going to be a launch pad similar to latisha so one of the beautiful things that you can do there is you can go to these. Incredible animal reservations where they essentially rehabilitate wildlife. That's in bad shape for some reason or another that you'll end up first of all learning a ton but also playing with some adorable monkeys. There was one that actually it was so attached to my head that a refused exit. There's a guy guarding the exit is like you know. You can't take the monkey with you right now is like i know that. I think you have to tell the monkey though. He was so when the guard tried to take him off. He actually wrapped his tail. My neck their tails are powerful. Awesome because monkeys like joking and this is monkey island in my in the right place. This is muggy Eastward de las manos useless dillas mona. That's correct there are a couple others that have also heard phenomenal. Things about one of them says amazon rescue center which is just outside of key does and if you go back in the direction of this an indigenous word. I'm going to pronounce terribly but i believe the pronunciation is micro chica monkey sanctuary. That's outside latisha. Okay you want you get into indigenous languages. I can be of no help to you. All actress pronunciation hoping for a lifeline. But not nothing. I would say that the general thrust of the trip is you have these two cities incredibly different and they're separated by essentially two hundred twenty two hundred and thirty miles of river. And you you just recognize again big city in the us or europe or somewhere else. Your sensation is going to be that. We people sorta figured out this whole nature thing and we. We conquered that that on. We're moving on to other things you go to these places and you recognize. There's just a sense of your own. Smallness and when combined with some of the mysticism and spirituality imbued in the culture. Especially in the keith. Does it very difficult not to internalize some of those sensations not to get too metaphysical but one of the big things to come out of the amazon for me was just the sense of smallness that sort of standing on a beach in looking out is absolutely one of the more beautiful experiences that i recommend. Now one question for the the amazon part of it. The river cruises i think about when we talk to people for instance who have done the trans siberian railway. Red road they talk about the first hour. You're looking at it and going. Wow look at all the trees and then then you see trees for a week and there is a somewhat of sameness to the experience. I'm assuming with this. You're going to have moments of wildlife spotting and then a lot of trees am i on the right track. You are exactly right. The level of boredom that comes along with the slow boat that definitely underselling that exists for sure and i'm not trained to save. Boredom is a bad thing in this case for some people that might be a great way to take a break right. Bring good book or bring a good book that happens to be a book about birds or wildlife or something like that and enjoy slowing down and certainly disconnecting even if you have the cellphone charged. You're not gonna be finding a signal. I'm guessing that's all that is absolutely true. And the other element of it is that you're surrounded by people who if you were to just go to deny or go to a big city. You're not to meet quite the same type of people that you know in a big city like lima where sort of oriented around tourism. Sure you're meeting tour guides in your meeting waiters at restaurants. And you're meeting various people like that when you're on this boat you're meeting do. Whoever is coincidentally on this boat at that time and it turns out that those people are wonderful crazy at played poker with ten proven solas with these two guys on this boat for about six hours straight one day and we just laughed and had a great time. You end up and i have no spanish whatsoever. By the way it's just entirely a relationship built around is and whatever language you can come. It's kinda cool that there's some beauty in that too. I think we'll one question would be. It seemed like maybe on a boat like this. That having more spanish would open up to more interaction just because you have some time. Oh that's that undoubtedly true. Okay wish that. I took spanish more seriously in high school especially on this boat. I completely relate to that. I had to learn spanish an adult. 'cause i wasn't smart enough to learn it as a kid. I didn't think spanish to be honest. I didn't think. Spanish would take me anywhere. Because i grew up in an agricultural region. Where spanish was the language of the fields and the younger version of me. Said why do i wanna learn spanish and guess what language i've had i've had to use more often than any other foreign language that i've learned spanish so i'd love to tell the younger me To study his spanish but there any young folks in highschool listening to this there are a couple of subjects. You can ignore in school. I wouldn't recommend language to be one of the ones you ignore it because the end up like me on a weird vote in the middle of the amazon and not be able to talk to anybody and it's a little weird and unfortunate so take them seriously supplies excellent anything else. We want to talk about in terms of the overall itinerary. First of all or things that people should know to do or not to do whether on the strip there is one experience chris. That was a little bit silly. I'm gonna forget the name of it but in akita's there's this area right on the river. That is this interlocking web of lagoons think about venice. They actually call it that. So it's buildings on either side and these these lagoons. There's a tower that goes through those lagoons. You can do it if you want. Didn't have a terrible experience with it. I would recommend just walking down to those and exploring these really intricate interesting. This web of city built into the river. 'cause it's fascinating got and it sounds like that may be the and i'm looking at this trying to know how to pronounce that the kista kushtia own area so i would highly recommend taking a walk through that area but they do. They have tore boats. That take you through venice style. If the guy on the bag sort of thing to sink like venice is not Well i'd pay extra for that. I wouldn't actually recommend that boat is something about it just felt a little gimmicky. Had no real tie into the actual culture of the city. It was just a thing that they were doing to make few bucks on tour so that might be something to stay away from. But i would highly recommend going down to those lagoons because that was that was phenomenal candidate. Anything you all. We talked about bringing a book and bringing Maybe an extra battery for your cell phone anything else. You should pack for this trip. You're not gonna be able to pack it. I don't think you will maybe check the luggage. But you're gonna want more mosquito spray than you cover much mosquito spray. Chrissy bought new life to this point by all of that again and bring it to the it. 'cause it's gonna be a lot. I don't suppose mosquito netting above my hammock on the boat because you're moving even though it doesn't feel like there's wins only. Mosquitoes are not able to stay in one place and the mosquitoes on the boat. Very fortunately are not a serious problem. Yes every every other place. You're going to be under mosquito. Net any reinforced. Very very much for your standing in the prettiest spot. You saw where you standing. What are you looking at. You know where i'm standing. I am on the slow boat coming into keita's at the edge of the amazon so behind you from where we just came there miles and miles and miles as far as the eye can see of Beautiful green lush trees. And then you look ahead where the boat is going and the port of iquitos is actually incredibly colorful. These beautiful pastel houses and buildings for some reason the ferry boats and the barges and everything in the port is very flamboyantly colored sir going to get these green and orange tugboats in these really deep bright red bow. There's something about the monotony of the amazon rainforest. And then this rainbow of colors. You come into the city so that would be. That'd be my pick. Excellent one thing that makes you laugh and say only in the proven amazon. So one thing that's interesting. Keita's is because it's inaccessible by road. There are no cars the way around is going to be. What are essentially rickshaws. But they're basically big motor tricycles with a two person seat on the back. Yeah i would. I would call them tuk-tuks after my time in southeast asia but that same sort of motorcycle rickshaw various attack essentially so only in akito is your only option for transportation. Talk talk and if you had to summarize this trip in just three words. Three words against us unbelievably life-changing excellent excellent and again our guest has been will conway from the baggage claim podcast. Hey baggage claim common. And and will. I know you haven't been doing the podcast for very long. Do have resources for us. If we're going to send people to your best resources for this trip i do. I actually have something a little funky for your listeners today. Chris which is if folks want more information specifically about the amazon. I've set up a resource page on my website. What they can do is they can actually text the word amazon. Two three three two eight seven seven nine. Five four zero my websites. Hey baggage claim dot com. The podcast is intensely immersive first person five sensory experience of being in different places. So it's the tagline is travel stories intel's and they're very short ten fifteen twenty minutes at the upper end immersive firsthand experiences at being in different places excellent. And i'm curious how you do the smell-a-vision part of that when you say five cents is that's the hardest part to do with the podcast and if i do text to that number. I'm not going to get that timeshare right that. You're gonna get a link to this page on my website. That's going to have a lot of the information we covered today and every once in a while might share with you that i have a podcast. But you're not gonna get spam. Excellent will thank you so much for coming on amateur traveler and sharing with us your love for this part of the amazon. Thank you so much pleasure being here in the community. I again another. Thanks a goes out to my patrons of the show who support this show through. Patriot dot com slash amateur traveler. Thanks so much speaking patrons on the show that we did recently on the coast of virginia. Jeff gulfs patron of the show and national park ranger. Emeritus wrote and said so. You were one of those kids. The rangers so love. Thanks for the kind words for our rangers. Fun fact yorktown victory. Monument is the oldest congressionally authorized area in the national park system. October twenty ninth seventeen eighty one therefore can be claimed that the currently named colonial national historic park is technically the oldest continuous protected area in the national park service very did not know that jeff d to add one national park area fort monroe national monument other national park administered entities in the area include the captain john smith chesapeake national historic trail washington rochambeau revolutionary route national historic trail and the chesapeake bay gateways or network. Finally one often overlooked area of colonial national historic. Park is the cape henry memorial next to virginia beach. Thanks jeff thanks so much catching up on some of the apple. Podcast reviews from the summer. We got some very simple ones from what could to she said. Great pod sam. Two four to three said. I love the variety of places covered on the podcast. Chris brings on many fascinating guests and adds insightful. Commentary that immerses you in the cultures and places around the world. I listen to this podcast every day in the car and even on my runs around the neighborhood. Thankfully there's a podcast to go through but sam. You're catching up. Because i am not making one day lisa. Four two zero four two zero says. Thank you love this podcast. And then marshall says i love this podcast and listen to every episode chris does a terrific job of scheduling such a diverse range of places and people that make these various locations come to life during the pandemic when we can't travel and those who are from the usa are understandably not welcome in most countries listening to these weekly. Podcasts keeps the dream alive and scratches that chronic hitch to see the world. Listen learn and support this podcast. Big thanks to chris for his decade and a half of service to us. Thanks so much. Marshall that really warms my heart. Sorry i didn't get to those reviews and tell now it wasn't that i didn't appreciate them. One reminder if you want to support the you can go to amateur traveler dot com slash affiliates and. There are a number of different affiliate links. You can use when you're buying things mostly travel but you can also go to places like amateur traveler dot com slash amazon and just by through amateur traveler. And send us a little something and you pay no more and it helps support the show and with that we're gonna end this episode of amateur traveller if you have any questions and an email to hosted amateur traveler dot com or better yet. Leave a comment on this episode at amateur traveler dot com. And thanks so much for listening. Talk one camp. Buildings is segments.

amazon latisha peru colombia columbia brazil amazon river south america tci chris christensen colombian government Jeff rosen jeff hung heiser amazon rainforest matisse conway
No Easy Answers For Content Moderation

Techdirt

50:23 min | 2 years ago

No Easy Answers For Content Moderation

"Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Mike mass, Nick. Is it quickly the doctor. Pretended that critical digital thing in the pitch. Title. Cain to take control. Up to the. One, the. It does feel like questions about internet platform. Content moderation are going to be with us for a long, long time. We've had a few discussions around this topic over the past few years, but now that we have congress and even the president and large parts of the media suddenly commenting on the issue, it's no longer just a topic that a few of us obsessive cz are focused on, and it's not just a narrowly focused discussion among mainly academics and lawyers right now. And one of the things that has become a bundle clear in all the discussions about platforms and their moderation choices is unfortunately that most people have little to no understanding of how it actually works or perhaps how it doesn't work, nor do they understand what various companies are trying to do or. The really the scale of the challenge that they're facing. And unfortunately, this is made conversations about this topic, incredibly frustrating. People make an awful lot of assumptions, and many of those assumptions are really, really bad or unformed, and that makes it very difficult to have sort of thoughtful nuance discussion on a really challenging topic. And so some of the the confusion or mistakes that people make are saying, things like platform shouldn't moderate content at all, or that companies don't really care about moderating content. And I keep trying to get people to better wrap their heads around the fact that all of their sort of easy solutions to these questions generally are wrong because I don't think there are any easy solutions and to get people to have a better understanding of these things. People really need to understand how we got here. Companies have actually done and sort of the nature of the the. The challenges that these companies are facing. Thankfully, a few months back then yelp each student clinic polished a really incredible paper in the Harvard law review entitled the new governors, the people rules and processes governing online speech. And while I recognize that not many people may choose on their own to read a seventy three page law review article. I cannot recommend this paper more highly. If you really want to understand the issues behind the content moderation debates, it goes through the history of content moderation online, including the laws, the corporate culture and economic incentives, as well as how content moderation actually works and what impact it might have clinic is now in a system professor law at Saint John's university and his joining us on the podcast, discuss both her paper and the general questions around content moderation. So Kate, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, having me. Sure. So the paper was turned out to be really, really well, timed and important as this discussion is suddenly become front page news. Why did you choose this particular topic when you did. That's actually kind of very funny story. Well, I think that. Is part of my my work at Yale. I was working at internet law and issues a speech and online culture, and I actually started researching how things came down under the copyright provisions and notice and take down. And that actually didn't end up being interesting story, and people were very reticent to talk to me. But in the course of researching that, I found this, you know, found out all about content moderation and I have to credit. Jeff Rosen's Murli work on this in. I mean, he wasn't writing for nothing publications. He was writing for the New York Times magazine and for wired and stuff. Talking about this in twenty eleven in two thousand twelve and talking to a lot of the same people I talked to. So he was really on top of this. But for some reason it didn't have purchase. I don't think with people understanding what was fully going on, and part of that is because I don't think people understood in twenty ten twenty eleven, really the the nature of what social media was and what it was going to be a. So I don't think that they were even at a place where they could kind of understand these big ideas that would possibly challenge it or crop up. So when I turned to it in twenty twenty I guess it was twenty fifteen twenty sixteen I I kind of realized that there needed to go back and do a lot of Jeff's work again and then to also add to make a holistic kind of history of how this happened because what's th. Struck me was that these companies that emerged in the intervening time, the really only three Twitter YouTube, or Google and Facebook, and that they had developed their own policies each like very different way and that we had no idea how that happened, and it had to be a really interesting process. And so that's kind of why dug in. And just to give some of the listeners, I guess some idea of what's in the paper. I mean, do you want to give an example, some of the the early history of, you know, a pick, pick a story that you think was particularly interesting? I think they're a few different. You know, Alestra tive examples of choices that companies are making. If you have one top of mind, that might be good for people to understand. So I think that kind of to really understand. So I'll talk about this because they kind of had like the Moser understanding of what was going on there and the best sources. But it seemed like for years we'll Facebook was a company and a platform that was servicing or frequented by American college students from two thousand four from its founding to about two thousand nine that started dramatically change. It was no longer college students than it was no longer Americans. And of course, every time you kind of great these platforms, you have content going up that people find in palatable and some of that there's laws around how specifically what specifically can stay up and come down. Child pornography cannot step that's very clear. There's there's kind of a number of different areas that these platforms have to specifically comply with, but there's also a great deal that they can choose to make the rules themselves what they're going to take down or keep up and Facebook anyways, for a long time, their rule was if it makes you feel bad, take it down, which was very much kind of say a standard in the sense that like don't drive to fast is a standard and don't drive over twenty five miles per hour is a rule like, you know, like the standard, the standard of if it feels bad, take it down is only as good as kind of the norms, the Norman of understanding of the person applying it matches the normative understanding of the people being having an applied to them. And that, of course, just couldn't last in a in a in a in a scale scaled community that Facebook was experiencing from going from the. American college culture to a global culture. And so they had a team of, I don't know a dozen people that were kind of doing this in Menlo Park, and that was all fine and good until it just wasn't anymore. And they started deciding to make rules and to kind of put these rules in place. Dave Wilner was one of the main architects and so is judged Hoffman men. The two of them came up with these rules. I think Dave, most of them and kind of her Sodom and they kind of were trying to allow people who are going to start doing content moderation in. There were basically trying to create their own norms and ruins reflected. Their norms as Facebook wanted the community to be, and then those norms had to be teachable to outside people. So you had to be able to train content moderators in the Philippines or India, or eastern Europe or Ireland on these types of standards. And they had to be based on exactly what they could see in front of them on the screen and not any type of normative implication that was around whatever they were seeing. And so you know, I think kind of one of the best examples of one of the things they struggled to in the early days to really kind of get their mind around was they had a no nudity policy. And so in the states, of course, like breasts are little tab. And so that meant that like they couldn't discern when something was pornography and when it was otherwise, they just banned women's breasts that was not as okay with France and India still thought the fact that you had open mouth kiss. Thing was terrible. So like this is kind of like there's, you know, the idea here being like, you know you're doing, you're right if nobody's happy. So. There's a so they kind of said they made. Then of course there was breastfeeding. So what he ends, this is a very famous kind of example, but like how did you end? How do you end up? How'd you end up making exceptions for that? And there are a number of protests women who felt like they were being censored, perhaps rightly by Facebook taking down this very natural act, but for for people in for people that are doing the moderation, it was very difficult to have the cultural context understand when breastfeeding was happening and when it was not. And so one of they started having to make a lot of rules. And so one of the rules that they kind of made was like, okay, well, the baby has to be actively feeding, and then it was then, of course you ran into, okay, we'll the baby is resting on the mother's chest after feeding that. Okay. And then it was kind of like, okay, and then there were some weird things that were coming in that were like seemed like they were adults. Kind of breastfeeding or like March children, and it was child pornography, possibly. That was not. Okay. And you know, okay. Well, if the baby can walk than we're going to, we're going to take down anything with breastfeeding. If it looks like the child is old enough to walk on their own. But of course, like a lot of people breastfeed until way pass it. It just it ends up being this kind of you are trying to make you. I think when I say you, I think like a content moderator or Facebook, a person would observe type of thing and think that rule seems easy and intuitive. Why can't ages ban breastfeeding? And I think that you have to really think that when you try to translate something like a ban on breastfeeding into instrumental rules that can be that can be free from context norms and just be observable on the surface. It's just the the gnarliest task. It's just like very hard and it just Noddy. And you just as I think that the punchline of this story is that they had this this. Rule. They finally kind of tooled that this, this breast feeding rule, and they thought that it was like doing okay. And the breastfeeding advocates were finally a little bit of peas. And then all like somebody like started posting pictures of like a woman breastfeeding a goat and leg her village in Africa, and it turns out that like during drought, apparently, this is the thing that people do is they just, you know, that's actually how you keep your hurt alive. And like if you find a lactating woman, you breastfeed the goats in lactating women so that they can like they don't starve. The babies don't die and keep. Anyways. It was a completely legitimate reason, but it was it was not allowed. It was not allowed on the site under the rules because it just it couldn't be. You couldn't ima- imagine how weird things would start getting if you allowed animals breastfeeding to be at humans being on the site. So. It just is very interesting kind of a very interesting phenomenon. And the other part that just add is for every time that a picture like that might be flagged for them to look at that picture might exist twenty twenty times elsewhere on the site and never be flagged. Never kind of put into the queue things to review to made part of their policy. So I think it's very, you know, all of this is not even a perfect experiment by any means. It's very much based on on kind of intermittent reporting and changes in what we decide to find offensive or not. I think what what's what's interesting and and I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding is that I think most people think that most of these decisions are sort of black and white. There's good content, bad content, and you leave up the good content and you take down the bed content and I don't think they recognize just how much of that content is in a gray area, and there may be varying shades of gray. But, but there are, you know, there are decisions that have to be made about each of them and and many of them involve subjective decisions and like, you know, you know, together with with CD a few months back at the content moderation conference in DC. I help run this session where we had the audience trion, you know, they received reports of, you know this. This content has been reported by somebody. Excuse me. Should it stay upper or should it stay down or should it be taken down and what was incredible as we had this audience of? You know, I don't know how many people over one hundred people who are in the space at a content moderation conference, and none of them could agree on what to do about the content that we showed as we showed. You know, the content had been flagged. We showed the specific terms of service that it was accused of violating and you had to make a decision and we had not, you know, obviously, we chose situations that were, you know, on purpose, somewhat difficult, but there is no case where even the ones that we thought were sort of easier where everyone agreed we had four different options that people could do, leave it up, take it down, apply some sort of. Flag to the content. You know, you have to click click through his, you know, potentially adult content or something like that or escalate, which is basically like punt this issue. I don't want to deal with it. And you know, with every example that we had at least someone in the audience chose each of those options. And so you know each person looking over the this, these pieces of content may have have different different ideas, and then you multiply that by millions, right? I mean, you have so many pieces of content you're going to have sort of, you know, sort of both types of errors, right? Type one and type two, where you know. Content that is, you know, I again, it's sort of grace. I hate to use the terms like good content, bad content. Yeah, you're going to have content that is, you know that most people probably think is good taken down and conto that most people think is bad left up and you know, and just, you know, if you're talking about, you know a million pieces of content per day, even if they get ninety nine percent of those right? This still a huge number of mistakes that are going to be made. And of course, then everyone gets all furious because the mistakes you know, get sort of talked about an show and you know we're talking about sort of larger and larger busy content. And I mean, you mentioned Dave Wilner her sort of wrote the original rules at Facebook, and I think I met with him years ago like soon after he had left Facebook and he was sort of the first person to to sort of get me to understand a bunch of the stuff. And I wish you know, if you know, I keep telling people, they should read your paper. The other thing I wish people could do to sit down with Dave Wilner for. He's really he's. He is amazing. I one of the interesting things. I mean, I will also say that there is something it's funny that you love that exercise than I hope that we're also having. I think you know, there's going to be content, moderation conference, follow up the DC one in New York on October twenty fifth organized. And so I hope that people find that it's organized. It's being hosted by Saint John's in Manhattan. And I think we're going to be doing this again with CD t- that exercise, but I think was so great. But one of the things that I think is so interesting about some of this is it took me forever to be able to talking to Dave and Judd and other people, and a lot of going back and trying to understand the black box. It's one thing to be in it. This is actually just super complicated understand from the outside. Someone has to really kind of break it down. So I don't like I don't. Flame yourself. I think that it's, it's, it's intuitive. If you're if you if you exist at one of these institutions and you've been doing it for a while, but I think that how I break it down actually, kind of this idea of. That you're kind of touching on when you say good speech in bad speech, and then you know people deciding what to do with it. So I would kind of think of it in two ways like what has to happen, what is kind of starting to happen happened already, but now it's being subject to a larger audience. More scrutiny is the question of whose values do we want to express when we say we wanna keep up good content will what do we mean by good content? What we mean by bad content and what should that look like for global audience when you're creating a global norm for speech? And so that's, I mean, that's, you know, that is the private prog of these platforms and they are subject to kind of reputational concerns and relevancy concerns and staying in the public trust and all of these things that creep pressure. But that's kind of more or less like they just get to choose. And so they're in the process of doing that kind of creating more thoughtfully. What they want the values to be or what they think the value should be consulting people outside. And I'll get back to more on the timing about in a second. But the second thing is the how question which is really kind of what you're what you're content moderation than gets down to. It is one thing to say, okay, we can decide that pornography is bad, but how you instrumentalise. I mean, just as an example, like just let say we decide for Niagara fee is just how you instrumentalise. That is incredibly incredibly difficult. So I think that kind of what what that exercise that you didn't DC really shows is the one we can't even decide what our values should be because different. Everyone has really strong feelings and they're very different and to once you even if you could even decide like we're once you do decide it's just so hard to kind of create rules that can be flexible enough and reactive enough to even do the task of capturing the speech that you don't want to see up and taking down taking it down and leaving up the good content. It's just a very, very hard. It's a very, very hard thing to do. I think part of the issue too, is that so much of this is really context dependent, and it's, you know, for variety of reasons, sort of impossible for the people who are making these decisions to to understand the context. And that might be just because of the time it would take, you know, to understand, you know, this is a joke referring to a meme, not an actual threat on somebody's life or something like that, you know would be impossible special, especially when in some cases, you know, people are expected to go through like five thousand pieces of content and, and you know, oftentimes the rules are basically like just look at this content. Does this content as it is by itself violate these rules that that you've been been taught? You know an expecting them to then go and apply the context for it is effectively impossible. You know, you don't have people who can sit there and investigate, you know, you know the history of Amine and somebody's referring to something else, or you know, even in in some cases, I know like I've been trying to get this across because people will, you know, talk about, you know, this tweet in context or whatever, and people say, well, it's not replying to another tweet. So there is no context. It's like, no, you know, complex means more than just like it's replying to this tweet. It could be, you know, a actively as sub tweet on something that's going on in the larger world without a direct reference to it. And if you don't understand that you're not going to understand the context and what have me and how everyone is taking it. But you know, taken out of context, it could look really, really bad and you have lots of situations like that. And you have lots of situations where the sort of subjective reality of the the individuals reviewing this stuff, you know, comes into play as well. And I think it's really difficult for. To sort of, you know, understand that. Yeah. No, I think that that's, I think that's absolutely true, but to channel Dave a little bit. I think that they would say right now that it's actually not about context because what the entire point of the rules is is to try to remove context because it is impossible to discern things for all of the reasons that you said to teach the infinite layers of context and everything else. So that basically what you need to be able to do is to code context to turn context into a series of visible. Visual cues that a content moderator can look at and determined that the cluster of these cues. Tell me that this is permissible content because it's likely a joke or this is permissible content because it's happening in because it's commenting on something like happening in England that we understand is like a, you know, some type of other drunk or some type of other protest or something. And I think that that's kind of a key point because it's really like, could never keep up with context. Context is always going to change. But the whole point of the rules is to create a series of of just as objective as possible. Things that you can just see because you can never totally no context. So for example, when they came up with the bullying rules, technically like the academic definition of bullying is like a power imbalance between an older kid and a younger kid or more popular kid in less popular kid, and it takes place, you know, around shaming and there's kind of harassment and all of these types of things. Right. And that's not an instrumental thing for Facebook to to be able to do on his platform. They can't possibly know how old everyone is. And what like whether someone was popular that day in school or what happened in English class in, you know, in Rehoboth middle schools like seventh grade, like you know that you know, in that moment that makes this this particular thing that's happening on so fourteen year olds, Facebook page, a problem benches. There's no way that they can ever take that context into consideration. But what they can do is decide to make a blanket rule that says, if you report speech against you and it looks like and it is harassment by definition of harassment, then we will take it down and that kind of blanket rule has problems ripe. But they had to decide that like in this context, that type of speech likely was not going to be like the value of that type of speech was diminished compared to the harm that it could cause like a particular individual. And I agree completely. And my point in raising context is basically the same. I wasn't, you know? No, you're totally right. I'm just trying to kind of like to captain a slightly different terminology know. Exactly, right. I mean, the the point is you can never, you can never put context into the rules and therefore the rules will always miss it because there's no, there is no way that you could reach. Reasonably do that. And Dave is right in that, you know, you try and coat in as much as possible, but the, you know, one of the reasons why these things come out wrong again, wrong being sort of an absolute term for a very fuzzy concept is because there is no way to put the put the context into these things. The you went wanted to sit to touch one thing earlier. Two thousand. Super interesting. So one of the things to kind of giving the history of this and I talk about how you know. You also asked me what, how I got turned onto the. I will also say that like when I started this topic, I had to spend at least three minutes explaining every person that I might and talked to, and everyone was like, oh, that's fascinating. I had no idea that existed, and I was like, yeah, I know. I year later literally nine months later a year later it was, you know, it was in the front pages of the news and there's a few reasons that all of that happened. So when Dave in Judd, we're kind of coming up with these rules that they're just there was just a huge burst of people going onto Facebook and related -ly like an enormous uptick starting to be an enormous uptick in the amount of content being posted. And so if you magin that they had like forty million people in two thousand eight or two thousand nine. Forget what the exact number is. The doesn't really matter that they had forty million people. And as you said, ninety nine point, nine percent of the content was fine. But like point, one percent was on the edge or hard questions or things that didn't didn't matter. The chance of them making an error, taking something making, I say, making it here, but the chance of them doing something that offend making decision that a user didn't like or green with. And that user having some type of pow. Our access to amplify their voice in protest, be upset was a lot more minimal when you get to their user base now and the number of posts that are getting flagged. It just becomes a much larger part of their product. It is actually like, I don't think that they saw content moderation is part of their product and thousand and nine because it just was so it was like it was had not revealed itself yet to be significant. And the change has really been like the last three years. It has just revealed it self to be enormously significant part of their product. And so you've seen go from being dozen people in two thousand and eight thousand and nine doing Konta moderation in in Menlo Park to being like working working off one sheet of rules like ninety pages of like Wicky document. Like, you know, like the basically is like all of these internal rules. And hundreds of thousands of moderated around the globe to now, Mark Zuckerberg saying, well, we're gonna hire ten thousand moderators, train them on these rules, and they have now are just doing have like just delegated huge teams of people to figuring out what those rules should be. And it's an, I think that that's like that's a really important thing to talk about about wile sudden, this is kind of coming up in why it's going. I think, as you said, rightly at the head of the show, it's gonna keep being an issue. It's not going anytime. This is the new way that we speak. This is the new public square. This is the new. This is this is a new central Commons for everyone, and it's just a very, it's a, it's a super important thing to have to be able to understand sort of related to that, right? I mean, so you talk about ninety pages of rules and being able to train people, but you know, and those rules are constantly changing because you'll start with a simple rule like no nudity. And then every one of the the grey areas will start to pop up and you'll sort of build an exceptions and clauses and and you're sort of creating what is affecting a set of laws right now. One of the concerns about this is that it's a set of laws that are created in a very undemocratic fashion and often in non transparent fashion, right? And so some people are perhaps rightly or perhaps not concerned about the sort of lack of transparency about those ru. Tools and kind of how they're. You know how they're enforced. And so I think some of the reason why people think that companies doing nothing is that most of this is done in secret, right? Yeah. I mean, for a long time, it was there's been an incredible amount of incredible increase in transparency about this. And I think part of that is instrumental in the half on behalf of these companies. I think for a long time, they'd kept the rule secret because under the kind of the understanding. That if you if you released rules and you told people rules, they became easier to break. And so I actually, I have this example that some crazy ever and has a crazy uncle. My crazy uncle was in the army, and he had empty beer bottles around his bunk. And his like Sargent came in, said, cleanup. Those notes, we don't allow any empty beer bottles, clean those up and my uncle, then just proceeded to fill all of air bottles with water and leaves them exactly where they were. Right. So this is like, this is kind of the idea. This is the problem with rules that they are both more specific and then because they are more specific, you can more specifically for them. You said, break the rules, but it's the opposite, right? It's it's really gaming the rules, right? It's complying, but you know, the letters grating the rule, which is the which I guess we're kind of getting to a circular discussion of what the point like rules are instrumentalising kind of the spirit of the rule, which is kind of a standard anyways, which is based norm. But yes, the the ideas that you're not kind of that you're not making it, you're not. You're not relying entirely on some normative understanding. But yeah, I think that this is that's a really great point to point out that there wasn't breaking the rules of complying with the rule. It was. Yeah, still kind of like that line, the big lebowski. It's like, you're not wrong Walter, your NASA. It's like, okay, so there was a lot of concern about that. Releasing the rules and Facebook and other places with just mean that spammers bad actors trolls use those rules to get around them and just to to sorry. But like the part of it too is the fact that the rules keep adjusting and changing. If the rules are transparent and somebody does one of those things to sort of violate the spirit of the laws, and then you know, the company creates the new exception. The new change to the rule to sort of deal with the bed actors than that. To some extent. You know, some people argue that that's I followed the rules and now you're changing the rules on me. So which leads to other messes? Well, it's very, it puts the companies in real no win situation. Totally. You know the, the one thing that they that we, you know, you. And I think both say a lot is that this is impossible or this is very hard and I wanna I wanna walk that back. Because I think it is like a little hyperbolic. And I also think it's important to remember that like there are a lot of thing like if you had, if you really believe that this was impossible, you would say that basically like, why are we even bothering to lobby these companies to do a better job for to create, do a better job of getting rid of trolls that harass women and on their platforms or getting not coming up with a better way to take down revenge porn or a lot of other types of things that they've done a tremendous job in the last number years, still some ways to go, but they've done a tremendous job doing. And I think it's really important that there's there's a difference between understanding exactly how hard it is and. Being being accepting of that, but not not compliant. So basically you can understand exactly. This isn't have sympathy and empathy, but I think the most productive solution is okay. We get this is really hard. I understand that you've been working on it and worked on it for years, but here's how I think that you could make everything better. And let's work towards that together as kind of a society versus kind of what I think turns into this outrage machine between the press and Facebook and the press and Twitter or and a lot of misunderstanding they can do better. They, in fact, are doing so much better. I would point out to you and I don't wanna like kind of who knows. I might be jinxing it out to you. That is Ben like a solid, like three or four months since I've seen a giant scandal about Facebook, taking down something they shouldn't have taken down or or keeping up something that they shouldn't have kept the they should have kept up. And so that. That's actually fascinating to me because there was a period for two years there that every six weeks there was some giant. There was some giant scandal. And what that tells me is that they're doing a much better job at creating administrable rules, training people on them and hitting what people actually hitting what their users want to see your don't wanna see, and we have not have, you know, it's kind of like when people don't publish null results like we don't, you know, they're not, you know, we're not seeing like you don't see the the null result, but this is a tremendous null result like this is kind of a great. This is actually a very good indicator that maybe they're doing a better job than we had. Then we give them credit for. Yeah, no, I think that's. That's true. And and I should be clear to like, I agree when I say it's impossible. I mean, it's impossible to do perfectly right. There are always going to be some mistakes. What I would like is where people not to assume that those mistakes are indicative of you know, bad faith or no concern or the company's not even thinking about this or you know, or just being interested in what makes the most money, or you know things of that nature just fed up. You know, it's very tiring. Yeah. And I think that there is maybe starting. I, you know, I did this radio lab podcast. There is the vice piece that came out and I do feel, and I wonder if you feel this way to like, do you feel like there's been this kind of recently? There's kind of people are seeing a little bit differently that there's been a little bit more kind of room for people to be having a conversation about the fact that like maybe are hard questions and maybe this is getting a little bit better. Yeah, I think that's true. I think those are. Those are both. Great, great examples. I mean, radio lab recently did a along podcast that I think really sort of in ways that only radio can do really sort of demonstrated and kind of walked you through how difficult these these choices are and how what seems like an easy decision often has a lot more elements to it then then people believe and same with the. Ice piece, which I, it was motherboard. Right? It was part of the borough was it may have. Yep. The mothership vice, you know, one of those, but they did this very, very long and detailed article that you were quoted in extensively that even involve them, actually going to like content, moderation meetings at Facebook and really beginning to get an understanding of it. I think I think those things are helping them glad that that's happening. There's also this documentary which I think is going to be shown on PBS soon called the cleaners, which I got to see a screening of recently. That is another one that's that's like a really thorough documentary. Looking at specifically from the perspective of like, you know, these sort of lower wage employees in cubicles in the Philippines who have to make these decisions. And you know the movie doesn't doesn't really take a stance, but I think does a really good job of demonstrating how difficult these choices are and you know, and trying to put all of these grey areas into a situation where somebody has to make a yes or no decision. And it just sort of systematically walks you through all of these different examples and all of these different individuals who who worked on content, moderation at Facebook and sort of, you know, continually shows examples where you're like, oh, I don't know how I would decide that situation or, oh, that's that's a much more complex situation. So I think between all these things including your paper, you know, I think that hopefully people are beginning to to get that idea that that these things are are are difficult, but you know, we'll, we'll see, you know, the next big, you know, blow up over over one of these issues. We'll see if people said of automatically revert back to to their earlier positions. One thing I did want to touch on which we hadn't. I should've mentioned it in the opening, but I think it's important because there are still some people out there who who are of the opinion that there should be no moderation whatsoever. And I think that's worth addressing at least a little bit. Right. And you know, from. My perspective and I'm going to once again name check Dave Wilner because he he sort of helped shape my thinking on this. You know, the argument that he made was I wish I could clone him into him to like people like to like eight million reporters. Yeah, I know it's difficult. No, I I don't know if he's blocked me on. Emailer Facebook because I'm always bugging him to go to this event or that event at just so people more people can hear him. But you know, he, you know, he, he made the point to me. This was years ago when we were I discussing, I said, well, do you think that that you know platform should block spam? And you know, almost everyone then says, well, yeah, of course. And he says, okay, well, now you admit that moderation is important and necessary. Now we can have a discussion on where on the spectrum that moderation should fall and and you're like, oh yeah, right. I mean, that is an important point if you do absolutely no moderation at all you get and you know your platform is even moderately popular. You get overwhelmed by spam. So once you say like spam is not, okay, you're agreeing to some level of moderation. And then there's a question of where do you wanna put that? And people can have different decisions on where they want us to put that marker in terms of how how much kind of moderation they wanna do. But I think you know, recognizing that to some people, you know, you can say, well, we don't want spam in the platform. Okay. Then you begin to say, well, you know, outright trolling, that's kind of spam, abuse, harassment. All that kind of stuff is a kind of spam depending on how you define what you wanna define. And so you know everyone in reality recognizes that moderation is necessary even if they say otherwise, it's just a question of how do you have you then implemented. But I, you know, I've been getting hit even even today right before recording this. Somebody was screaming at me on Twitter about how better person than me do not engage have firm policy. Yeah, yeah. But I, but I think it's important for people to to at least recognize that. I think the the idea that platform should do no moderation whatsoever is is not a realistic solution for anyone who's who's really thought through these. I completely agree. And I think that's something Daniels to talks about and harlton Gillespie talks about and in your speaking about kind of the am hope that this I haven't seen this trailer for the cleaners, but I hope that it they talked to Sarah Roberts who does all the work on this incredible. She has just amazing work on the labor side of this stuff in the impact of looking at these. These kind of like, okay, now we've created an entire rule of law system to review these things, and we've created these judges. Basically, these train decision makers that we like higher at low wages to run the all of these hard decisions and it's just agreed just work. One of the one of the things that I tell people is that it's fascinating to get groups. Of content moderators or people who worked in policy together, and if you get them together, they almost all new note tell you exactly where they were whenever something terrible has happened to the end. Like in the world, the all new where they were during the Mexican beheading videoing by all know where they were during like the Newton school shooting. They all know every horrible event that was horrible for us. Imagine if you had the back end of seeing every single awful thing and having to sort through every single awful thing that people were saying in those moments. And so it's just these traumatic, but what you're I think that the the bigger part of what you're saying is that is that? Yeah, it's a, it's an incredibly. It's an incredibly important thing to remember. I m e huge like huge like first amendment, free speech advocate, and I almost always come down on these decision Konta moderation decisions in terms of like leaving speech up, and I don't like hide the ball in that, I think of super important, but I am not. I very much by the idea that certain types of like that speech, Ken, that speech encounter speech are disadvant- because of the nature of online speech in the internet can really chill speech and chill users, ability to to speak in use the platforms in their -bility interact in. It can have incredibly harmful effects, and those effects are magnified by the nature of what online speech is. And so, but it's a real that is really hard balancing act. That is my hard question the like of all of the questions like that is the one I that I struggle with the most because I truly believe that especially women in minorities. Are targeted more strongly a lot of these types of by trolls and other types of other types of kind of bad actors. And they really believe that, like while I really believe in the idea of counter speech, I also understand that practically having a thousand replies to like you posting video about speaking about your feminists intuitions or whatever else you know of people sending Mitchell, you is just a very high price to pay to speak in a lot of people would rather than choose not to speak. So there has to be some type of moderation level that falls in to like all of these things. I mean, we could go on for a whole another hour just on sort of the the free speech implications of all this and exactly that kind of discussion. And I, I'm, I don't want. We don't have enough time. But you know it it is. This is why it is such an interesting discussion. I actually think this is important. I think a lot of people who who here these discussions that most of the people making these discussions are not huge, free speech supporters, and yet the opposite is often true. I mean, almost everyone that you talked to who is deeply involved in these issues. You know, a lot of them come directly out of sort of, you know, the first amendment legal practices or just strong free speech, human rights supporters around the globe there key parts of this discussion in part because you know they recognize how in other context attempts to silence speech, I is incredibly damaging. And the question is, how do you, how do you understand these different factors, and how do you encourage, you know, you know, encourage more free speech in a way that that is, you know a effective as opposed to sort of actually silencing people. It's. It's a very, very complex. An interesting and nuanced discussion, which is sometimes difficult to have with with people who don't want to have nuanced discussion. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's, you know, there's a whole bunch of different, you know, important things on that and just to to circle back on one thing, Sarah, Sarah Roberts who's professor UCLA she was, I think she was an adviser to that to the film, the cleaners, and she appears somewhat briefly in in the cleaner. So it's it definitely takes into account a lot of what what she's talking about. It's a really another one of these things where we're seeing all these examples of people beginning to have these discussions beginning to understand them, and hopefully that will lead to sort of more awful discussions and more more nuanced discussions about about these. These topics I recently spoke to the near times was a hard non Jew about, yeah, about kind of the Dorsey stuff. And I was saying how that in the testimony in congress and I kind of said to him, you know, a lot of like the question that I get a lot right now is why is this happening now. Like why? Why are we is this, like all of a sudden like such a present things, Alex Jones Steph and everything. And I often I was recently on the market. I present my paper to to to law schools and faculties and people just really, you just seem like tech utopian, you just. Okay, guilty a little bit is charged. I like not. I'm also a pragmatist. I just think that we are. You know, from 'em also kind of a background in cognitive psychology and neuroscience. I think that we are very much in this norm setting process when you just have not understood this world. We're just like kind of like sacks of neat walking around what the heck is going on the internet, this new like crazy space, and we have no idea what to do. And I think that we've were slowly starting to rock exactly how this works and put new new things. Now, I think that there is a new conversation happening around online shaming an a new consciousness around on lynching that wasn't there before fake news was not a concept that people thought about. I thought it was always hype like all of this stuff about the news, but even if it was always hype, the effect of talking so much about fake news has made it so that everyone is a little bit more skeptical in a good way about what they consume online. And so like there are like. All of these types of things that are happening in the background that I think I, I'm hopeful I am optimistic will eventually kind of drown out all of kind of the negative and some of the the outrage machine, the too quick to respond mechanisms that have fallen into place, and hopefully we'll get to a better place, but it's going to be a while I think. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that's probably a good note to close out the podcast on and and hopefully we'll see that, but I'm a little skeptical but how long it will take to get there. I agree that eventually people will sort of hopefully begin to recognize this stuff, but the the outrage machine is is very tempting for a large. I very, I'm very, like said it's like a little bit of maybe I'm a little bit of a crazy optimist I just have to be or otherwise. I'd just be kind of like have to give you know, jump or something. Well, I mean, it's good. I mean, I'm usually accused of being the crazy optimist so you know feeling feeling being on the pessimist, slightly more pessimistic side is is, is is kinda neat for me. Anyway. Again, thank you very much for well for writing this paper. Again, if you missed it, the papers called the new governors. You do a search on it. You can find it online and we'll link to it in the description to this podcast. It's a really, really great paper. Hopefully you recognize that from listening to this conversation and so and thank you for joining us on the podcast and having this discussion and thanks to everyone who was listening as well, and we'll be back next week with the something else. Thanks. To ship. Repechage.

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Toilo Vs Tublet

Twinovation

55:17 min | 4 months ago

Toilo Vs Tublet

"This is a head gum. Podcast all these. You know this is how that money is up to open a piece of folkston. Welcome to twitter vision for your skinny strange misdemeanor conscript hustles anyway. You're trying to make that money here to help you. And as always i'm joined by my nifty shifty evil twin brother the happy shafei. Tugboat jeff rosen rosenberg And in the room across from the hallway to me is you know her best Dame bond duchy's on american maryland. Nicholas shadow there. And i wanna yes. that's fantastic. We're happy to see you. Happy on nothing. Our audience more than happy anna. God not even your beach. Background can make you seem chilin than today dave. But i guess we'll try to get up to you know. He's a up to his usual tricks again he's up. You can hear from the clink of the ice which is never a good sign. Easily tony these on one of those classic dating benders indeed. He is going strong till valentine's day. I gotta present berlin as great jerry. This sunday kirk from valentine's day episode episode. And it's gonna be real. Pg we're gonna. I think my idea at least is Can be a great valentine's day gift for all. Yeah i think mine is kind of thinking about it beforehand but it does have to do with the a loved one to a degree interesting. Actually now that. I think of it to i wanted to switch up a bit cuckoo cuckoo I don't know if anyone wants the super bowl this sunday but there was a streaker at one point. I remember that right. We're watching together. Yes i remember. So i saw this photo. Are someone discord. Check out our discord. It's actually popping also Someone posted this picture saying They met that person streakier before hand at a restaurant and the streaker told him. You put a fifty thousand dollar bet down on the odds that there would be streaker at the super bowl and show. What he did was is buddy. I guess tried to jump on the field. I as a diversion And so he went to pot. And basically i guess he gets find a little bit but this guy ended up clearing three hundred. Seventy five thousand saying the ultimate schemed in dream in regular sure. Yeah i mean it seems a little kind of like a mill legal for sure i mean is it. It said something betting seems illegal enough. That if you if you had the stachel and more power to you sound like to dive boxing. You know i. I feel like if you're willing to go through the degradation and humiliation and the risk of all of this that You know what if you're smart enough to profit off of it that god bless you dip do at ten more times you know i would love to to see get taken away based on the fact that it wasn't a full streak you a come on. Do hate enough streaking. The whole thing that streak in it and just being the athol that runs on the field being the crazy asshole. Naked runs on the gross. A person has to catch you and like the people gets almost hated into the end zone there with. I guess that is like if you're naked about becomes like more of a sex crime at that point. Yeah i'd say so. Yeah in cove it like during cova like a naked guy like the security guards have to go chase unlike. Tackle this naked man. It's lake but they're there definitely gonna use sky as like you know. They can't have that happened in the future based on cement batting. This guy made the mistake of talented people he was doing it beforehand because we shouldn't know this information about him. This really puts a target on his back. The do you think it matters if he said before after the factor is study said at all. I think he. It's very like using enough trouble. As is now knowing that he profited off of it. I'm sure the powers that be you're going to go after policies like what i don't know that's what sports betting is it's like people they're going to crack down on. What like inside sports. Betting like i don't get it like if you know that i mean i guess it's different. 'cause striking isn't a sport but like if that's something that you can bet on then run you know you can do agree with on that one. Yeah yeah it's more vault for allowing whoever took that bet it's their fault because platform whoever took the bet accepted that bet that there would be a streaker then opens the door for anyone to place that bet and then be a streaker. Now you better grow a little bit as a vegas singer is kind of local edge. Type a deal. It's it's it's very. It's being very frowned upon in the community in. There's a lot of behind. The closed door talks on the matter. The so could we have. Could we have bet on that. Like a through through normal channels. You think there. I think so. I mean these places you can place bets on when trump getting divorced so i think you know certain communities exist really where you're allowed to kind of bet on anything. That's pretty cool. Look into that yeah. Jeff could just place a bet that he's going to come into a large amount of turquoise jewelry and then by a lot of turquoise jewelry and then he wins the bet like. I don't understand like is this. Just how broad it is. Suppose let's start betting on a big better have on the stock market every day. I'm betting on capitalism betting on the power people the power semiconductors power slot power. Our pods gonna be federally legal by the end of the year and i think back as name you know kinda got that like a forty year like fun again. You know grew the again you know we'd like on a tired is wired. Yeah i like jokes like that. A law yes. I think we're in for a reckoning today. I don't want to speed the show up any more than it needs to be. But i even ideas really gonna make you want to sit down and take a big fat. So you're making a gift to the beef of the week because of the catch of the day instead and go straight to your idea. What will you do. Sometimes they're gonna change it up a bit. you know. catch the day. Something we haven't done for quite some time. Perhaps we could finish the show on with the beef of the week. Have it sort of be a low end. No i guess. But i think people like consistency david. I think they ll actually. Don't i think people get bored when they see the same format all the time. So we're kind of at wild crazy show. That you know doesn't play by the rules adult if we did get a little crazy dream. There brandon brandon brandon any. Alright kyw's. I wanna introduce the first little piglets of the pig pen he he goes by the name of Baby v a lotta. People will once considered him king. Those days have passed due to the fact that a royalty is considered a bit of a faux pas in this country these days than you have to work for your money you know pull yourself up by the bootstraps now. No-one likes you know. No one likes the those trust fund. Babies wish i were one. I'll tell you. I really wish were one but folks allow me pose a question. Will you please do go ahead. I think it's interesting that you're still going. I considering your interest in changing up this show in the segments. But god well you i come prepare. Come excited i come to play one of the worst part about duty ing. Call it that. I'm not a fan of a wiping and seems annoying. Which why. I don't like the accident of like putting my hand in money as the best part in fact that's got the day attachment and i've talked about this before. But you know it wets it cleans it. But there's no drying mechanism on them. I'm usually doing drip dry there for about fifteen minutes while you're on your phone. I imagine i didn't realize that installer. That's that's great. I would love to come around some some day when we get these vaccines and take a spin on soccer. Well if any of you let me say if any of you in any of those class spicy buffalo wings the super bowl sunday then. You'll know what i'm talking about when it comes to my idea all right. It's so seldom but scary. Hot tamale ship said. I'm worried about in this episode in that. Got me thinking. How can i amelia rate. That little brown hold turning a fiery red and then it hit me. Let me explain as some of you may know. I watch a lot of teen mom and these little girls who pound out. These baby cakes really inspired me. Not only because they're willing to forgo their lives for some indecent unprotected sex but they're able to endure pain a pain. I could hardly them until super bowl sunday and i noticed a lot of women these days. Are you know foregoing hospital birth in in lieu of guests those underwater again. Mom that is your dulas. Is that what they're used for. Es they use dulas for your water breath. I hear it's big especially in you know your your long island's and your coat your coastal elites for. Sure your you'll see a lot of this on the santa monica boulevard areas in beverly hills a suggestion. What i'm doing now that got me thinking about my interesting gang stinger scorching but all continue. Its a scorching illest inking allowing you to the very first of its kind the toy low or the tub bullet or still working on that what it does mirror that underwater birth and getting here. What we're doing here for sitting third about two centimeters below the eap that throbbing hole below the flow. that's right. We're talking about submerged underwater. You'll remember when when jeff pu or hot tub a bit more fervently to saying that the pain is diluted water okay than the toy low or the tugela tub more. I designed keeping low in the bowl. A the excavations below sea level. Mary so to be clear yes. We're pooping on your water. Okay and of course. This is a double flush toilet to make sure you're clean as can be below the ballot. You know i. I know where those questions might come up actually in talks with the creator of the bid david to see if there's any cross contamination. There you come on down. That's right come way down low and then the next time you drop your kids off at the pool make sure it's during a flashlight your toilet into a tub. I've done some early testing here in the upstairs. Bath a lot of mistakes for sure. At the beginning i am. It's something i need to actually talk to the hall us something well. I think it's a very disgusting. But not far from your most disgusting idea. And i do i get what you're talking about. I guess with your inspiration with the teen. Mom water birth is natural and i really respect it and i'm for that reason i'm in as investor. Thank you a price. Point on that. Dave will i you know i actually. This isn't something i thought about. I was so enamored by the idea. I think at this point. The idea is priceless. I said it's going there. Be around two hundred fifty dollars which is a little bit on tight. What isn't toilet prices would be because this is a full new Apparatus air different type. It's a full toilet. That water level up to santa meteorite and then and then you don't have the more 'cause you're kind of club. Will the sheet still there to a area I here that makes sense we so this is a see. It's not just as she. It's sort of a way of life at this point ryan and we so we ask you not to pee in the water ours one of my questions. Of course that definitely contaminate it but yes. That's why we think a lot of people can stand up and do this The pink or the different action for women get a rash. Actually i take back. My in. you're right. You're gonna get a rash from like sitting in shit water. None where the double flush toilet comes in without forget. It has a double flesh technology. Meaning meaning that when it's contaminated. The first flush goes down a lot of my prior tech is dealt with this already you know lasers can you your holes closing for the immediate flashlight though you can you know. Kinda have like you're disposable wipes fine you in kind of clean up. Presumably you only have to cupcake sized pieces of chico. Some urged glow the water can just kind of take a a a sanitized rag to that afterwards. Yeah that's true. There's know really to two inches. Below will cover your whole ass will kinda just like jeff said those. Those chicken tenders There's a milk in a lot of times. Those will cutlets or getting shit on the many ways. You may vulgar. Just take a dog with us right now. It sounds call it dunk. Good news straight across promotion there. I think it's pretty clever. Actually 'cause y'all medically kind of have that cooling agent attached it's huge. It's going to be huge in a lot of second and third world countries as well where people are still dying from diarrhoeal. Unfortunately in right. I don't see how that solves anything. Your citizens. The main the main component diarrhea one of the things we focus on most with our product actually be find that to be one of the most common sort of ailments of the people that feel that type of fiery burning It makes sense to me. I'm wondering if there's something different about the water. Regular water is a cleansing water. Somehow you know. See you also. It's it's a little bit colder than unsealing thing we can say is. It's a little bit cool. I'm wondering if there's a bit of kind of you know that's gonna pop this act up a bit to it so in your point i can see that i guess i'm thinking of like an iodine a packet or something like that. You know you killing everything in the water. As as the sequel matter drops into the bowl. You know what i mean. They're i hear you jeff. We just don't want to add too many elephants shirts for surprising on that. And i respect that and we've done some early testing with some of the pit. Boys out in dc actually and they're finding this to really changed the way that they take on the day you know The language they have to worry about you know eating those super hot spicy buffalo wild wings. 'cause it's not what it's not what's going in that turning what's coming out of course of course new The imagery here is you know in my mind. Imagine maybe a slightly longer person short a person may be in their their legs are kind of cropped up off the floor because they're they're kind of in that deep bowl setting that that's actually wrong. Jeff this is going to be very much lower to the ground. Zero legs are going to be going flat out of. Its low flat out dave. I think we've all. I just tried it. You're right you can't prove that it's going to it's going to be like the squatty. Potty spotty potty but we're doing this instead of taking your feet off we're taking your ass down. It's refills the same thick angular goals at that point. You know bowl vice you have something say or is that just dave's empty drink a little canadian whisky courtesy. Less than a who. And what type of canadian airing talking about her. Do do all doors doers. Do ours ours. Of course ours. I thought your james family yes. I don't know he's he when he says it's from me. He means he stole it from my parents. Obviously i do not drink do ours. And i actually haven't had alcohol in a year really. Yeah actually except for just having we had like one or two Like cores lights when we were in cape cod But that was literally it other than that. I haven't had a single drop. I haven't had a drink of whiskey or anything one in a year because there's nothing to celebrate. I just don't like drinking unless it's social you know. Like i don't like and i and i don't like drinking at home like i don't really see the fun i've never. I've never felt that way. It's not just like a now thing. Everyone sober my dad has some red wine In the evenings my boy. Yeah my grandma wine to actually but me and my mom aren't into drank in the so these days. So just dave. Dave zero one dip into do well. Well you know. I seldom do it. Let's just be clear when i when i do it. I do it hard. And i do it to the core. Would you guys do for The big super bowl sunday. Did you order. Mommy made us a spread. We had a full feast. Yeah mommy made us a feast. What kind of stuff we talking about here just to get the ground. We're talking about. Onion dips chips. We're talking about a chicken poppers that we're talking about a spinach tip. Actually wanna thank you for your banana bread recipe. I made some muffins turned out pretty good. Oh i'm so excited. Did you do the whole the actual recipe that no. Yeah that. I'm so glad that recipes really good. Isn't it doubled the bananas. Though the had there were small bananas and they were they were either way so yeah added. Probably you still probably three of your normal size bananas with these tiny little deckers i- lovett it. Yeah jiminy bananas and a banana bread. You really wanna talking. Yeah i love that. I wanna make more of that. I haven't had a banana bread. And a wild that was like my beginning of panned staple and i need to return to it and added to the land of. It's a nice little breakfast. Treat with your coffee. Yes elwin the trouble. Of course damer bringing it back to your shit water toilet putting your ass and shit. Water idea We are trying to talk about the finer things right now. Baking delights a but yes. I guess after you enjoy your homemade donuts by me or you're a banana bread. You might need to go a us a toy low which i actually prefer to Dave interesting super interesting actually. Yeah they have a file name that you want to choose her. We can put up a poll. Maybe on twitter at the looks at the fans involved. They know. I love the engagement. They know i love here. And then i respond to every person that talks to me. That's how in board i am. You're lonely day. I'm pretty lonely almost every moment of every day. That a stop saying that already. John say the worst part about being alone. It's about being says that to you every day. I said that you yesterday. Now you're and you're not even saying it right. It's first of all it's worst people that make you feel like you're alone and robin williams is the one that said that you are dirt dog in today dude. I need to start drinking more so much happier when i drink. There's definitely like a you know the first forty five minutes feel good in the night. Think it kind of plateaus and then goes downhill. But he's like it did. This shit is so tight health. This good burn throws insane. Patty's day that's my mom's birthday so guys that's the idea. It's the tablet or the toilet. Low sound off in the comments. We'd love to hear your positively remember. All of the positive tiffany here. We don't banish people from the nation anymore. Sorry to those tens of thousands of people in the past that we told to leave going to power went to our head for a bit Don't don't don't think you still can't get banished. We definitely have our rules. I am not willing to take any You know i. I don't take criticism very well at all. And i actually don't like it. No one really does day. I'd like to tell you. I think this idea of twenty twenty one. I think it's fantastic. Customer in investor. I could see the market for this. You know especially with people. Who are you know entering into that. Say acid reflux type of life or that heartburn type of world That you can get into your in your mid thirties there. So i'm in as a custom investor and don't forget don't don't forget a lot of this is is the pre duty you know it. It's you know you're sitting there to soak it for a second before you really you know. Open pretty graphic. It's a shocker. Soaker thank you all. I'm gonna leaving out that Let's get that standing ovation. Dylan that i like to hear after my next up in the pig pen you know him. Best as jeff used by awesome brother real men. He's he's like. Yeah dude you sleep the fucking best ro- He's the best bro to shout. Tamar love my fan Love everything. I'm like a big lover. Here's jeff hit with it. Pose a question. Do also really appreciate that intro there. It's it's nothing dude. It's not a big deal. I think it's like kind of territory that comes with a like a like a tight fitting black t. You know positive positive bras activity bras activity indeed thinking about like doing something crazy. You know. lak- becoming her personal trainer us cool. You thought about. It'd be crazy considering that you don't even consistently personally train yourself. David the people as motivators. You know it with personal trainers. They are actually getting a lot of the training from you. David have you ever thought about being a yeah like a life. Coach would become a cool setup to i could use a life coach but the thing about life coaching. Is your students. End up teaching you more about life than i think. Dave should be like Motivational speaker like to high schools and do a speech lay emotionally currently not allowed within two hundred yards of any high school for reasons. I can't get into say. I i was looking for a a tableau sort of segment of people that could test it out and they were not happy when i made them all. Drop their pants. You drop trial. They were high school kids that same again. That's the legal sack right there. Yeah sack labs did not approve of that sac. That's good stuff all right. Well you know allowed me to pose that question that i wanted to go before. Okay say you're you're with your significant other in bed or maybe solo. You know however you live. Your life is okay by us. Okay okay you shook your head at that are you. Do not agree with me for something that i just. I raised my eyebrows at some of your little comments. That i notice you throw in quite often Makes me smile looker. The know what's one of those things that you know you're under the covers that you want to do. Maybe xiaobin dutch oven. Of course evidence sexy similar to that sometimes the body you know body too little too warm in there. Maybe dave sweating always and you have kind of a kind of a classic move i would say of of you know maybe not putting your entire body underneath the covers. Anyone getting one. I'm giving here. I don't know. I want to take what you're given me. Also you know it's a it's a little too I'm just going to tell you this. E pop that. Lego you pop that arm out you know. Maybe the arm hangs over the mattress. Maybe the leg curls over the deve so you have kind of that like breathable leg going on you know to cool it off. And you kind of want the temperature of your body to fluctuate a little bit in the sense that you can get a breeze on leg but still feel warm and cozy on the other lay on your torso butcher spend a third of our life sleeping remains enjoy it and of course david of course getting here today. Maybe it's a little difficult with someone else in the bed and you know and you're you're kicking the covers over a leg may be to expose that that leg to the environmental right end. Maybe you're shuffling around a little too much and kind of have the jimmy legs if you will what were to tell you. There were a way to circumvent all. It's actually. It's actually pretty good name now that i think having circum nets okay. What i'm pitching today is your day and do cover brad. Scott holes sliced in throughout. Okay so imagine you have like lyrica pizza dough. I don't really follow that. Dave more be like like flits like putting slits You know maybe not so much like it. So it's not like a blanket like that you know. It's not like a bigger where you can kind of throw anything anywhere. Because we don't want you to get all tangled. I mean it did cross my mind to have the full big net kind of like a stick a thick if you will but this is more of you know kinda you've got four different positions on the lower side of of your blanket and then four on the upper side. And unless you're putting your limbs through this thing kind of look seamless so you're not. You're not losing he. You're not going to risk putting your head in by accident. Shokhin yourself to death. These are these are controlled slivers. They can fly your limbs through in an open blanket. So for example if you want one of those inner legs as opposed to your outer leg to be exposed to the air you can put that put that leg through the whole amber actually columbus the devoe the du t do all right okay. I'll like that open open to question. Surname lola. both really struggle. I noticed with blankets and blankets are too much for both of you guys. I think there's innovation you know possible in the net world and you should be able to maneuver properly. Them jeff Are there different instruments going outside the blanket in these little slices. It's going outside in these little sources winning by insert there like a. You're saying like a like a like a sleeve. That your ear legos. Into what you mean you know. Maybe if your foot is called. There's a little wool socks inside the blanket. You can tuck it into see. See if you're if you're call though that's interesting. no actually. That's not an. I will think on that. Currently it's it's not pouches it. It's the slivers. It's it's the whole since you know kind of your expanded think of the buttonhole but for your leg keeps that cold air from coming into the blanket right. Let's say you're you're cold on your blanket with you about that. You're called under your blanket. Let's say you are in this situation. You just thrown their blanket on know you'll see you'll be warm went so like i said dave and i'll repeat it for the third time now is that it's like a buttonhole. Ira a gaping hole that allows air to flow in. How you have to you have to almost punch through that to a degree with your leg or your arm or your head if you wanna wear like. What are they called those bad boys back in the day right so you can one in the center too if you wanna wear your blanket around pop your head under pop your arms in it. This look like swiss cheese to a degree David doesn't look like choose and going to reiterate here that they look like button holes okay. Let's regular blanket to the naked eye. It does it does and then you kind of open that crevice in kind of punch your way through through. It's not hard but again to the naked eye really. Yeah in terms of your foot thing would be warmer. Under the blanket this is more foley for cooling down type of maneuver. So let's say let's see your chest feel in high rate off at that point. I'm gonna cut you off right there. Actually because if you're feeling and you're gonna you're gonna put the blanket below your chest in that scenario. You're you're not. You're not going to go half in half out this portal. Is there a hood that you can stick your ears through funding coming from the toy. That's pretty we have fun of me duke. When this pin denikin it and main going nuts. I know i wanted to be over. I want to go out and party. I forgot our people's eyes. Look like that crazy right. I forget like. I can't dis- the pupil on the outside or the inside. I can't tell anymore. I only mean like. I don't remember people's faces shirt. Of course i have Canal above or below the i. I don't even i like. I refuse to refuse to look in the mirror for the surprised when i can describe someone to like a sketch artist. You know what it actually works a lot of the time from yes and now as a bigger issue but do you think he can describe on a to a facial artist. She has a little knows of a mouse. Actually dylan fix that up. And she's got a big mouth of iran low mouth nose big rat mouse and and the here of lying s got the acid chimpanzee complex. That's a compliment at chimpanzee. Shut up the they know. One works out their asses more than chimpanzees What what else did i describe about on. His body stops. Not a huge fan of the nose nearing new david. I'm gonna really fucking roast you in a second and you're gonna cry like you did last week when i said that your beard looked funny when it was died so it was never died did cried we call that die and cry okay. That's the name bird special. This actually happened more of a died it then we teased him and then suddenly afterwards. Yeah wanna talk to me news. Grind nose hairs david minos here so right he stuff. We're really that. Don't come for me. Unless i send for you. Dave thank you that'll be the divo- and actually thought of a slogan while you guys are arguing. It's called a whole new way to sleep. Unlike like that. Joe cost you know your normal on. I'm gonna go with one. Twenty nine ninety nine feels like a fair price. Yeah that's not bound especially if it's got the softener good quality about proper debate. Of course i'm in. I'm in all the way customer investor. Let's take this. Qvc bed bath and beyond next up in the pig pen you know her worst as the queen of brooklyn And the king of queens. She's on america. Nikola jonah woody. Breath allow me to pose a question. Please please One of the worst smells didn't get out heading right for exactly outgoing. I wasn't gonna say specifically taught you know there's really nothing quite so bad as bad breath rate and so everyone you know as humans like there's this there's this quest to cover up the bad breath right obviously you know. Some people. brush their teeth but Others just simply don't do that and try to mask the smell With everybody knows the dreaded nintee- gum okay but of course if anyone with a nose really knows when you when your breath smells like shit and then you start chewing gum. All that happens is your breast. Smells like shit and mint. The mint actually carries the shit smell further out of your mouth. Then it originally was gonna travel lipstick on a pig. If it's a truly offensive a meant acts almost like a microphone for smell and lightning. You know you really can't meant really only works if you already have like perfect like snow. Snow a flavored breath. But like if that's not the case. I think it's fucking disgusting. I honestly think that meant is really disgusting and mint is part of the problem. So we need something to replace mint to cover to address this stench issue from the route so We need to create a yom or some kind of shoe you know. Dave is very fascinated. Another thing of teen mom that dave is very fascinated by his the chewing tobacco. My right david teen mall. Well dave and i watch a lot of teen mom and teen mom two day team on the boyfriend. Yeah boy we french tobacco right attacking lips. Yes and dave's very taken with that so it kind of thinking you know like what are some of the smells that would be better to to cover to cover these bad births. Instead of minton combining that with chewing tobacco i'm thinking chewing potpourri doing shoeing a like a for breeze flavored po-fa flavored type-two that guys can chew and spit out and it's an ongoing cool masculine thing for bad breath for guys with bad breasts like that you can like kind of just have have breath to be clear. Told the ladies out there in lamesa saying anything about the ladies already a dead woman living in your mouth just smells like she's using the toilet very toil overflowed and really you know the red the ready people sure do love when you guys roshni so okay to do this for the engagement. But i'd like to have a word with both of you afterwards. Days like sleeping and i like wake up in the middle and all my god this fucking rob a grave lake in fucking comeback. Like what is the smell. It's not. I can't describe it. You know like when you watch a murder show and the cops are like and then there was that smell like you can only hand even describe it like accolade decay and it's like i've never seen a dead body but i know exactly what they mean because i've smelled dave's breath early fair. There's that's i don't have bad breath. I mean i think number one. The invested tongue scraper. Dave yeah and maybe the one from the mummy where they call it right. I do like the kopri power. Is it an inner poucher. it's kind of loose. It's like a. It's like a loose depp. I like the does it give you buzzer. All what are we talking here. A doesn't give you how you a buzz. Shit could have nicotine in it. Why not you know. I also appeal. Wanna chew it shooing. It right depends how much of a main you oil are due due to What is it though. He chewing tobacco the same. It's the lip stuff now. Packet that ribbons on who no book for real timely you Dip in that clip clap. I i'm a big fan of this. I think it's something that number one day it definitely you like the potpourri aspect of it. It makes sense to the floral fragrance. Equality of not as having a meant that like you said kind of megaphone that fill out into the world. I think it's a really really amazing stuff. Actually do we have a name for that way. Did i have a name for in down here. know what about. I don't know we helped me come up with one. Like what is it worth. the it's potpourri poper proper. you know. Color hail koper you big-league jew pouch about like what about what about you know choo choo choo spew. Cheuse view few cheuse. Okay yeah yeah some options you guys hash it out in the comments get Dmv on instagram. Tell me what you think we should go to. Dm in her ukiah me. Are you d m the twin of I do the yeah i mean. Let's get to the bullpen. Why didn't you block jeff. Because jeff is trying to hold on. this is day. Trying to kind of deflect herald deflecting dame lacks outta. We don't need to hear a cackling women talk for the next fifteen minutes wanted that i'd watch the bravo housewives with the show for hours today trying to move the beef of the week. It's just you trying to take away my platform from early in the show. Dr earned exactly. You're trying to silence me. And i don't appreciate it yes i block. Anyone who i feel is a hater. I feel like people that. Don't you know that actually are just you know look perusing my things and judging and then reporting back in The s. I'm starting to block people that don't like my shit. If you're not fucking here to fucking support this girl this girl right here. The star of the page than i don't need you don't need you in my community. I'm doing a community. That's a safe space for one person. Me and that is exactly when. I'm curious over there. So you know me beans. Maybe in time you can work back in but right now i'm keeping it very tight in there. I'm keeping it very chris. I'm so pissed at so many so called friends. So-called friends that have shown their true colors In terms of engaging with my fucking content on instagram so yeah yeah cova colours fuck everybody. I knew you know what. Just as much as i'm saying. Fuck everyone they're saying. Fuck you to me back. So you know it's mutual. I don't need anybody after all of this david. What are you doing charge. My computer trim. Is dave blocked to a wish. Sure is like two thousand eighteen or feedback. Dave yeah get out of here. Shut your mouth shut. Your fucking mel saw any shrines good trunk and puked on a crap. Dude you guys are just having a fucking assert for does mel yet because you keep this room so dark to hide frigging all the poppy seeds in your teeth. Yeah come used to call her and everything bagel. When i say what from your tooth people sick people. I met me and add something to say about. Your dentist was laying about if your teeth. Even teeth dentist was like what is this like. Are these like do you still have your baby. Teeth lake Your q. my shit baby davies them. Been them baby to still. I'm still waiting for those own replaced on him. Is mali's is one of those swiss miss Marshmallows you guys are just having a ball aren't required truly classic episode dave one for the books and one for the tub blower the toy low or the Allow but my computer and phone are both gonna die so actually. Just call and much shit dude. Everything's dying. It sounds like a davis breath got to bolton household probably frying the circuits the wires corrode inside. You can see him. Sizzling guys really do a number on me sometimes could thing. I don't have chronic. Thank god. I know him in about twenty minutes. 'cause he's gonna be In a bad place. I can already tell. I'll be working now in the garage. Getting my fucking biceps ready for summer. Twenty twenty two when we can finally hit those beaches. It's called the eighteenth month eighteen month. Fucking bbv's summer bod workout. It only takes you eighteen months to whip yourself into shape. We do a three minute workout today. I do three minutes of workouts for the next eighteen months in. You'll be shredded for twenty twenty two axiom. You can't eat dinner though dude. it's over. We just lost our second summer. I said this from the get-go this is going to be two to four years. I've been volunteering at a convalescent home. So that they give me a vaccination earlier are you serious. That's real foul once from that day. Because i'm around older people. They want me. They want me to be dosed earlier. I don't see it being any different than coming. Not gonna talk too much about death but you're still like partying and doing all these other things while in them in the you gotta listen to the pre roll and what he's doing for valentine's day you'll not gonna let not gonna say it now but don't forget to listen to our pre rolls on patriots and are buying time with me way. I can't wait to know. Tell me as soon as we're done you need to take some time off from you. I'm good thing. I have nowhere to go the next month because you and me baby inside disturbance duchess much. Just go to newark. Take a flight to hawaii in in walk into the ocean isn't isn't a kind of beautiful that that we can do that. It doesn't feel kinda cool as kind of like any. If i wanted to buy a flight anywhere in the world i could go there tomorrow. I don't think you'd anywhere in the world will not i mean sure covert wise but could still you know escapist get credit card and have a ball for a month and then you just hide bright the rest of your life. Can you get a credit earn. You have to put it in your social security number when you get a credit card. Dave gets credit cards all the time. I don't think you have to put much in what he has to put in. I actually just mailed him a credit card today. That here you gotta use your credit cards to pay off your credit card so on so forth. it's like a pasi scheme for yourself as a game for points mexico. Try to buy a house on a credit card. But don't tell anybody my family. Great dave as always we are worried about these red flags here and there. I bought a full house on my credit card. My phone's on far percent now so everyone sound off in the comments. If you're tired of they seem earn their not initial now no sore today when a very One that was a hate gum podcast.

dave super bowl valentine jeff Dave jeff rosen rosenberg stachel brandon brandon brandon kyw jeff pu david Dave zero elwin damer cova Jeff buffalo wings
#360: Skate Ramps, Drilling Holes, and Fastening Drywall

The Fine Homebuilding Podcast

1:03:53 hr | 2 weeks ago

#360: Skate Ramps, Drilling Holes, and Fastening Drywall

"Heavy duty bundy's and gets muhtar clips and some hooks on the side so it actually sits on their nice and tight as patrick seems to be concerned but you know by by an attractive tarp. Don't get a bluer jason. Welcome to the fine building. Podcast our weekly discussion of building remodeling design topics aimed at anybody who cares deeply about the craft and science and working on houses. This is senior editor. Patrick mccomb today. Joined by digital brand manager rob watson high. Deputy editor matt mill ham pillow and producer. Jeff rosen there. You know so pat steed. Who's andy angles. Wife is the most over achieving baker. I have ever met and had the pleasure to sample her. Delicious confections well. She brought over cinnamon bonds to the family this morning and they got me all wound up. So it's going to be a fun show for everybody. You gotta trekker cheddar bacon scones. those are gone. Yeah so we had andy angle is. Are you know building skills editor for a long time and the beauty of that was when you go to shoot a video. Andy's house his shop. You'd get scones from pat in the. Did you guys ever have scones are. Can i hold that over you that you have it you've probably. I don't think i got anything. I'm trying to remember now. Cheddar bacon scones killer. She is really a good baker. So what are you guys been doing. Rob you go first. You seem to have a little more landscaping going on at the house. Like digging holes seems to be a new hobby. I was actually before the show. I was i was i was thinking of saying. Would you believe that. I didn't do anything this week. And you probably say no right. Never been the case. Well i see the evidence on facebook so so we bought a tree a little tiny maple tree and we wanted to put it in this one corner. My driveway used to go a little bit further. And there's a patch of blacktop in our garden. Now and i've always hated it. So i was like i to get rid of some of that so i dug about a yard of gravel. Old blacktop out of a big hole and filled it. With what i thought was soil. But the the local guay loaded a whole truckload of composted manure into the back of my. Oh that's unhappy. Well it's fine. Because i actually was able to mix some of the sand from the whole in with it to kind of make something resembling soil but the problem is my dog actually ate a whole bunch of it and it's like scary. He was sick for like a day. We were really worried about her. So now i had to mulch it as soon as possible. Said to keep the dog from eating the stuff. That's not gonna stop her knows. But yes i took some rocks from that pile. I've been working off of in built a nice border around it and planted this little maple tree. It's kind of like our little japanese corner of the garden. Now it's got some some other conifers kind of mixed in there and it's nice that's cool but that's what i do on like a saturday night is worked till like eleven o'clock at night with the headlamp on digging a two foot deep hole in my yard filling it back in. So what does one do with unused to ask fall on a city lot. Rob dude said on the neighbors property. Or what do you do with that. And it's edgy property. Actually actually i get that steep hillside in my backyard. And i kind of carved a little path down it so i'm basically using the stuff as sort of home base for the path that will eventually get stone dust and on top of that it will get probably bluestone at some point but the thing is i mean this blacktop is you know sixty years old. I mean basically. It looks like gravel. Now there's nothing. There's almost no asphalt left in it. So what are you doing just gardening. You know mounting up potatoes getting all the rest of the plants in the ground or seeds in the ground That was most of the day. Probably getting all that done all vegetables are perennials or other plants to mixture of some flowers mostly companion planting type stuff to keep bugs down and that. Yeah lots of tomatoes I don't know we already had. Carrots beets potatoes leeks garlic and cabbage. I think in the ground so yeah this is just the rest l. piece we had already but yeah a ton you know. We still had three of dirt. I still probably have a yard of dirt. Left continental star compost in my in my driveway. That i need to move but yeah those potatoes shot up probably ten inches since sunday at least so to basically renowned those and those should be good for the for the season i guess i broke my tell playing golf. But that's jeff. Rob how but how the heck just one break once toe playing frisbee golf. I wish i knew no is just you know it was funny because i had walked up this this t box and it's in the woods it's a it's not a completely finished t area so You know my it. I looked at it. And i was like somebody's gonna get hurt on this because the front of this teebox has like either a four by six or four by four that's embedded in the ground and i was like somebody's gonna break their toe or something. Follow through just like probably a minute later so yeah it was great and then i played in a tournament a couple of weeks or a couple of weeks couple of days later and it was fine. How'd you i tied for fourth one out of thirty one so cap on the golf course Both of my rounds were for over which was not not fantastic for me but not bad. That's pretty good man. If you're a golfer. I'd say that was amazing. Yeah for me. This is also my home. Course it's like four miles from me. So i have a little advantage there that i play it at least once a week. Probably be careful though. Buddy you can lose. Well yeah so. This is like a real like permanent course and there's a bunch of them around. Yeah there are courses all around here. I know there's a bunch in connecticut. But yeah i can't remember there was a stat from the there's a professional disc golf association and i think they said there were something like an average of two new courses going day in twenty twenty like the sport is just kind of blown up. So you think that's kovic related. I think it probably is because it's a real low barrier entry. you know. it's an expensive. It's your parks generally free. You know free right Yup that's awesome. Yeah jeff what are you doing. You've been out in the yard to yard doing lots of fiddly stuff around the house and a new showerheads news under cabinet lights exciting things like that but nothing to tell me about your under cabinet lighting. Did you go all in with drivers than leads in this kind of stuff or did you do something more affordable they're led's but not expensive ones It's it's pretty amazing. How vet that whole industry. That whole technology has changed. Because i remember we did a piece. I don't know ten years ago less than ten years ago under cabinet lighting and there are all these expensive like modules. Led's were so expensive back then. The everything was really clunky and big and like and now you can just basically go to walmart and buy like a twenty foot at led tape with a remote controlled color changing remote control for like twenty bucks and run it under your whole kitchen. Don't remind me liam bought one hundred feet of the stuff. Ma'am i'm on. What color changing. Led's gives me a seizure. When i go in there. I'm like how can you live in here. Does the other one. The response to music's discount has like hundreds of different functions. That oh my gosh is crazy and like you said it. Was you know thirty bucks for one hundred feet of this stuff. So i've been keeping the homefires burning carols been very busy in the garden and perennial. She bought literally dozens of plants that she's been putting in the ground. And i did a couple of silly things i covered my cordwood with synthetic under layment and then cap nailed it to the sides of it comes down like on the size probably twelve or eighteen inches and it's kind of a durability test of tie pars version of synthetic under layment. We'll see if it holds up until the cordwood would is ready to be burned but it seemed like more tailored way to do this. Then that atar i mean. Ideally i'd have a woodshed. But i'm not gonna do that right now so We'll see how this works is kind of exciting project for me. So basically you built like a tar paper shack for your woodshed synthetic under layment rob. That's the way it's not even a tar paper shack it's like the top of its wrapped with the under layment so is an shade or is it exposed to the sun shade photo. I put a photo in the assets folder. Like a minute before the show. We started meeting here so look at that later. And tell me what you think. I'm very proud of it. It's very upholstered looking shout. It looks like bonnets or something. We're like a really poorly upholstered couch home center on sunday. And just for giggles. I went over to the plywood. Rack to see what stuff was selling for. And that's the other photo i put in. the assets. Folder is close to ninety bucks for a three quarter inch pine cd x. plywood and yeah speaking of home centers that was in one last night and they must be. I guess. They're gearing up for memorial day sales but the plywood. I'll was packed with pallets of plywood like three times as much three times as much plywood as i've ever seen in that store. And then the drywall. I'll was stacked almost to the ceiling like there. Were like eight. Stacks of drywall. On top of each other. And with that i have no idea. I mean like you could barely walk in the store. It was bizarre. You just wonder if the because the prices so high there just like a cell as much as we possibly can right or maybe all of a sudden there's sort of like a like you know they got in all the shipments that were on back order all at once. I don't know but maybe it's also because the holiday weekend they figured lots of people are going to be starting projects although people are starting to travel again and maybe people are going to start spending their money on vacations again who knows over posting on facebook. You know a note or a letter from his supply house and like the percentage increases across the board like insulation. Drywall in all the things that you use for building a house we're going up at least. A few percentage points sometimes fifteen. Like everything i had to go to both of the big box stores in danbury last week to pick up some stuff and i've never seen either of those stores so busy and i i go there all the time to pick up stuff for you. Know random shoots and stuff like that and it was almost impossible to get parking. I just cannot believe how many people are out in the middle of weekday. Yes this is. Yeah this is on a i think a wednesday. So yeah what happens. You so Brian wrote in. Thanks so much for answering my question in episode three thirty eight. Here's a few follow picks to show what it ends up doing You guys might not remember but brian called in asking how to insulate his master bedroom closet. After he tore down the plaster the wall board. He discovered that his walls had no sheathing on the exterior and the claps were applied right to the studs and so he sent us photo showing his very tidy installation of first asphalt fell paper and then insulating with mineral wool. And then re dry walling. So looks good to me brian. That is meticulous. Tarp asphalt paper in. That's how you do it. If you wanted to be an air barrier nice crease corners and everything. Yeah what were you gonna say. No looks fantastic. It does good job ryan. You're a model for the rest of us. This is from ian. Hey podcast crew. Thanks for the amazing content. You push out with style humor and accuracy every week accuracy and i. I was with you to that point. Nfl fifty-two responding to someone's thoughts about using a tankless domestic hot water heater for a radiant floor. Okay so i. He bumped butter us up. And then he's gonna patrick. I'm afraid you went off. And misleading tangent talking about the temperature about up north. Where he lives. The incoming water will be very cold etc and you ended up on a big watt rating needed for the heater to do this little floor. The incoming water will be very cold lessee starting from a total frozen start. The difference between the supply and return on the radiant floral selling and be more than twenty degrees fahrenheit and often less the steady state needed could easily be calculated. But it's likely well under ten kilowatts for floor. Sure make a bigger if you wanna come up faster from a cold start. But that's not what rating is good at a key bid of missing advice. If you really wanna do this you need to put glycol and what you have to put a glycol water. Mix in there like fifty fifty so it can't freeze and burst the pipes. Now you have to find out if the domestic hot water heater can handle. The glycol and many are not warranted for the duty cycles of space heating. Either fun to talk about. But i agree with some of the advice. Just not the right way to heat this place. Yeah i did get off on a tangent. I was talking about the temperature. Rise when you're using a instantaneous. Water heater for domestic hot water right. You're actually getting it out of the ground in many cases if you have a well or the city water can be quite cold in the wintertime. If you live up north so yes. I totally miss the boat on your thank. You were thinking straight hot water which is a continuous feed from our sources opposed to a closed loop. Yeah so he was asking about an electric version of these things. And when you're talking about significant temperature rise they take a ton of juice. Which was the point. I was making but i was still missing the boat. Thanks well and if you're dealing with a well just another point that the temperature of the water coming out of the ground is gonna be pretty consistent year round like the winter. Temperatures are going to be that much different. I mean you might have shallow either a shallow l. or your pipes are shallow too shallow well. I guess it's more. I mean because it gets really cold in the summertime to which would reinforce what you're saying matt so yeah. I guess it's just that the water is cold if you totally exhaust storage tank. That's coming out of the ground right. Yes i bet minus fifty degrees. Maybe yeah that's probably about right. And that's probably pretty consistent. I mean you know caves work the same way right you get your water from a cave. Well now probably not a tiny little manmade. It's big enough for well casing regu- drilling cave into the ground right. This comes from gavin pod. People in recent episodes. There have been many questions about why the cost of lumber has increased. I came across this really interesting in. Its own right construction blogs slash newsletter construction physics. In that he has an entry concerning the topic of prices and building material costs. I found it interesting that the things seemingly unrelated to lumber like the texas deep-freeze early in the year had a major impact on composite wood products. Because the polymer slash glue production stopped. Also that russia would supply is not the issue. Anyway thought you'd enjoy the blog in general as it seems to be really well thought out been listening since episode one and enjoy every episode. Thank you gavin. So i went to the construction physics newsletter. And i'll put a link on our podcast page and i did read the lumber peace and honestly we've heard so much about this. There wasn't a lot new in there for me. But i did find this really amazingly interesting article on the effort in the late sixties and into the mid seventies about the government's efforts to improve the efficiency of residential homebuilding and it talks about all these companies coming together and submitting their proposals to the government. I think it was hud specifically on their manufacturing methods to boost home production and it was very interesting. And i loved that. And thanks for that alone gavin but you guys should take a look at that. I'll put that on the podcast page to. Yeah i actually went and took a couple of other articles. So the guy who writes. Is this guy brian potter. And he's a mechanical engineer. I believe structures. He does like he. Companies and engineering firm that does like mechanical and heating and electrical and plumbing systems But it's really well done right. It's so well done so well. Written and super smart like there was one on construction efficiency and production systems basically the whole sort of idea that everyone says that manufacturing is so much more efficient than than the construction industry and how miss leading some of the data that they cite to sort of explain that and you know what it comes down to a lot of times is the fact that we are basically figuring things out as we go on the job site as opposed to everything being standardized figured out standardize like you would have in a factory and i mean you know when you've got multiple trades doing work that have to sort of dovetail in the most efficient way possible. It's never gonna be one hundred percent efficient. So i've heard it said to buy you know the builders that we deal with its every project is a prototype because you know. You're not working for a tract home builder. It's the same home over and over again. Everyone is a one off so there's obviously complexity involved. That did you look at this. That i did there. There was an interesting link in that piece on the lumber prices. Talking about the The the problems down in texas and how the the plants weren't able to shut down properly. They didn't get enough warning about the power outage and so stuff it congealed in basically the pipes and so you know the startup turning the power back wasn't enough like they had to basically clean these production lines out to be able to bring them back online and that was affecting all these other industries too. It's not just construction like there was a the article. One article eighty linked to was that they make products for pools up in new york. And they get a lot of their stuff from texas and they were running out of. I guess like polyethylene and these other things. They need to make their pool products and so it affected a whole lot of stuff. I imagine you know. Probably everything from bottles for dish detergent and soda. Anything right. yeah well. And the thing is that our all of our industries now have gone to these like a only by when you need it kind of just in time models because they can because it's much more efficient they don't have to pay for warehouses full of stuff and twice in the same wanted to get right to the line without having to store it and move it from somewhere and also i guess a lot of the mills have consolidated over the years and like any corporate can know consolidation. They run at the trying to run at the most efficient capacity possible. So that when there's a hiccup or huge change in demand it just throws a wrench in the works. Can you imagine what it's like to clean out vats of like your athena and stuff my dad. My dad drove a cement truck in college and he was talking about. How like only once did he have some cement up in the in the truck and he had to go in there with a jackhammer and break it up to get the metric so yeah but for lunch again yeah cleaning up congealed resins in some extreme machine or whatever who gosh okay so this comes from carson from oregon said that right to hear that halo h crew. A few months ago asked about cnc cut plywood for cabinets. I have gone through. The process and canal offers some comments overall. I would highly recommend it. If you're good at sketch up or another cad program. I decide to go with a panel cutter oversee and see as it was faster and cheaper at only seventy five dollars an hour for machine time and i didn't trust my ability to accurately convey data cuts in. That seem like it would be more complicated. A few data's. I need either be pre cut for drawer slides as i can buy sheets just for that where i will need to make a few. Data's myself with my router building kitchen cabinets. A large by ten island advani worth of plywood was only two hours machine. Time or one hundred and fifty dollars compared to cutting it yourself. Major time saver. Even if you're an all star panel cutter the savings and time wasting dealing with large material for one hundred or two hundred dollars seems well worth it compared to rta cabinets if you already have cabinet meticulously designed in cad. I used sketch up. He says with all links accurate including data's than going this route seems like a no brainer. Well i didn't go a cnc. Cut data's which would be another option if you're okay with screwed joints for cabinets than the difference between panel cut. An rt cabinetry is pretty minimal. You can even buy drawer steig sheets. That are already have data's in one half inch up from the bottom of the drawers so all you have to do slider machine cut drawer bottom in and out and glue and nail cost savings over an rt company. I compared to a bit apples to oranges as they gave different. Designs was in the ballpark of eight thousand dollars. Sketch up as a free extension called. Cut list all you need to do. Is mark all of your three quarter inch prefinished plywood as say read and cutlass well then produced a list of the cuts needed in that material which you can then send to your seat supplier for cutting. It can even produce diagrams of the optimal cuts on the four by panels if you want the downside compared to rta cabinets or a first full service cabinet company is a little bit more assembly time but possibly a lot more design time if you don't have extensive experience with sketch up or another design program. That's this part of the process. Took me longer than i expected though. My sketch up skills were very rusty. Since i wanted highly customized cabinets anyway. I was going to be largely stuck with this design process. Either way this could likely be farmed out to someone else for a fee. Well that was super helpful. What do you guys think. Yeah i'll tell you when. I worked at that shop. That did those retail installations in new york city. They had initially had a single Small really slow. Cnc router that we would use for only specialty things but eventually they invested in this big giant one and it would cut out like you cut thirty individual pieces out of a sheet of plywood in less than ten minutes. But how long would it take to tell the machine to do that. Work rob because i that's the thing is that there's some variables here you've got to consider like if you you gotta be comfortable with designing you gotta be comfortable with designing and a cat and a computer and computer software in order for this to be worth it for you but then again maybe did you find it difficult to learn that run It's certainly time consuming to to learn that to learn because you also know if you're working with the machinery itself you have to transfer the files from whatever. Your design software is over to a program. That's that works with your cnc machine. Tell me if i'm wrong. But i've heard him described as design programs and then tool path programs. Yeah yeah yeah and then of course i mean if you're doing this stuff yourself with your own. Cnc machine you have to learn all the little subtleties of like running the tools at the right speed and depth and it depending on the sheet goods that you're using. Sometimes they leave little tabs that need to be cleaned up depending on how it's fastens to the better the of the router. So there's you know there's a lot of variables but it took us a while to get used to the person who is designing the stuff to make it the right way for the machine to do it efficiently and without making a mess but once we did it was like oh you screwed up that piece. Just yell to the guy in the cnc machine in he'll spit out another piece in like minutes. So that's the that's the cool thing about it. Is that like if you have access to the machinery. Even if it's farmed out to somebody in your town you could just basically say hey. Can you re run that that and it it it definitely. It wasn't so much about increasing our efficiency on really simple stuff but when we did more complex things it really really dr or efficiency. I was surprised affordable. This is i mean to have someone all your pieces for in. His case was one hundred and fifty dollars. That seems like a steal. That does seem but i guess as these machines become more prevalent and more affordable the prices come down same similar to like how ten ago. You could have bought a three d. printer for thousands of dollars. Now you can buy one on amazon for like three hundred bucks you know. We should maybe make cabinets using three d. printers and in reality. I'm sure somebody's trying to do that somewhere. Just like those concrete three d. printed thousands. Yeah yeah people keep saying. That is going to be the next big thing. I'm a little skeptical about that. Any thoughts jeffer- mad about the cnc cut plywood. No not really i mean. I've seen you know we had one in the shop. When i went to school and i never used it. It was mostly the cabinet making like the kids who were in the cabinet. Making course that used it but it was cool. I mean there were people making all kinds of interesting. Not just cabinetry but like gadgets and stuff you know they were cutting out like gears and making things that actually worked one kid was trying to make some sort of a perpetual motion machine that. I'm going to work some sort of a power generator that was supposed to just keep going but obviously that was never going to work. It needs more magnets. It was cool the dream. Here's our first question. We gotta get to it. High epa podcast. I work in energy efficiency and always loved the talks about air sealing and insulation. But i thought i pose a question for you all. You might be a little bit out of your the. You might find a little bit typical range. Everything is out of our typical range anyway. For three years ago he bought a house and as a washed up an aging skateboarder. My dream was to build a mini ramp in the backyard and mini ramp is essentially a half pipe but much smaller and without any vertical walls. I tried to be budget-conscious read. I'm very cheap. When building this ramp which is entirely exposed to the harsh new england weather conditions. I surfaced the ramp with two layers of three eighths inch thick plywood and painted it with basement floor paint. I figured that would be good enough. And when the inevitable inevitable water pack damage sets in. I can cut out on the place as needed while surprise surprise three years later and the deterioration is beyond what. I'm able to keep up with their products out there. There are a purpose made for rams. Like mine gator skin and skate light but at one hundred thirty dollars a sheet and my already mentioned cheapness i'm not about to spend upwards of eight hundred dollars to service the ram instead of thinking of purchasing sheets of masonite as a great texture for skating and is usually used outdoors and dry climates around twelve bucks a sheet and treating it with someone to make it more waterproof. Would you have any recommendations for this plan. Or i setting down another path of folly attached her some photos of the ramp in its current condition. Did you guys see his ramp. Yeah yeah it looks rough. Yeah so i did a little research on this. And because i guess i should have assumed that mason is a common thing in in dry climates or indoor skateboard ramps because it's got that nice smooth texture but so on some of the skater forums. They were saying and this is this was going to be my guest to is that they use the spar varnish on it to give it some on jeopardy because the thing is i mean mason is basically high density fiberboard right. It's paid fits. Yeah but so. The thing is it's very porous. And i remember years ago. Patrick i probably tell you about this. I was planning on testing out some masonite or hardboard a floor tiles in a room. And i bought a bunch of sheets of it. Cut it into two foot squares. And i was experimenting with finishing systems for it and i stained it some dane and then i was polyester thing and it would soak. It took like eight coats before we glossy on the surface but the thing was the thing was basically impregnated with that polyurethane so it was like a much harder surface and imagine a spar varnish would probably do the same thing i would recommend basically if i were doing. Multiple layers of it may be that you would roll on some like water resistant. Glue before you put the second layer on so that you don't have these gaps in cypher water. But but there's an easier solution. That i think a lot of the skaters us is they use tarps and i'm sure some of them are just draping tarps over. But what i would probably do is make some sort of system where you can have a poll on each side and a cable running running across the top and like a boat. A boat usually has a tarp. That goes over the boom on it to keep the water out of the boat. And just you know that. That would probably give you a lot of of help to. I mean the good thing. Masonite is actually more water resistant than a lot of other sheet goods because it's got res- lot of resin in the surface. But i don't know i think spar varnish outdoor glue and tarp. This mice wants to go next. This is this. i. I love this question. Who's next. I don't know it's still sounds like a bad idea to me. I don't know i. I like middle aged or ran. Yeah i mean yeah. I mean it sounds like mason. I is were hardboard at least as a good solution for indoor applications but most of this stuff is not rated for outdoor. I don't know if you're going to be able to get enough finish on that. It's going to last a long time. And about bob suggestion if keeping the weather off of it. Yeah i mean that's you know essentially creating indoor conditions and you're able to you know keep it protected that way schorr but you know i don't know if he just wants to leave it out. I mean having tarp sitting out in your backyard. Tarp-covered thing may not be the most attractive thing i don't get when printed. We have seen the ramp matt. The biggest concern. Yeah i mean it may not be. I mean the. It's a little bit of. I wouldn't say it's an eyesore necessarily it. Looks like it'd be fun. It looks like yeah. But he's got nobody has to look at it. He's gonna have to rescan this thing anyway. You think or no. He's got yeah. He's going to take that old plywood off. I mean how. Many layers of i guess. Quarter inch probably hardboard. Would you need to actually. I think he should strength. I think you should go to the skater forums for that because it seems like it's a pretty common i think it's way too big area getting spans of your framing. You know yeah. I went on some of those skater. Forms to and they were not using this entire like they were using it as the skin but they were still putting plywood underneath for sort of like the main support. So i don't think it's going to on its own. Be able to handle the weight and dropping in you know taking jump and winning act you know like say you don't hit the rampart and you hit the bottom. You're going to go right through. Yeah i think when he described this as a out of our comfort zone. I think that was a euphemism for like completely beyond our knowledge. Of what so yeah. We're just completely making really my when i first concerns like it seems like a very common material for the skateboard ramps at least in dry or indoor conditions. And but. Yeah like i didn't. I didn't take a close enough look to see what kind of spans they put that stuff on. But i guess if you put a couple of layers on it. And i'm going to suggest other materials and you'll have to figure out what to do with them but like mdo is a plywood material that's got like smooth Lamb nation on the surface of it. Some people call it signboard. But it's meant to be outside. And i don't know if they make it in thin enough thicknesses that you could bend it to this radius for escape ramp the other thing. I was thinking of his west systems of poxy which is kind of spar varnish on steroids. You know you're getting expensive. How much poxy would it takes coat an entire thing. It'd be hundreds of dollars to be. He's starting to get back into his plastic ram material. That's the thing. I look i because i looked at mba or medics also in the prices for that. We're pretty far up there by the time you got to the thickness you needed to actually create a a deck that we able to handle skateboarding. See my whole thing. Like i would have said no way to the to the hardboard to the masonite. Except for the fact that it's so cheap and then spar varnishes data expensive so if he wants to do something cheap. That probably will last longer a little longer than what he did. The first time around I think it's worth a shot. I'm with you rob. I think keeping the weather off of it. You know when you're not using it is going to go a long way to making this thing asa longer longer because the the coating won't be exposed to the uv. Water won't be standing on it. So if you could set up some kind of system as rob suggest too target. And you know that will add to its attractiveness. Yeah and be smart about the targeting system. It's like basically make it easy at the top at the top of each and make a little poll. That just goes into a whole so that you can have something for rope that goes across. The rope is on a cle- or something so there are so that you can get it on there or or with some heavy duty bundy's and then get some tarp clips and some hooks on the sides so that it actually sits on their nice and tight and as patrick seems to be concerned by attractive. Tarp don't get. Don't get a blue and you put your eye out use tarp clips or something jeff. I'm sure you were a skateboarder. What what what. What do you suggest i just i. I have no experience with Masonite outdoors. It just seems like it seems obvious but it has that perfectly smooth surface which you really need for skating right. You can't have any Imperfections or it's going to make you wreck. Yeah i just. I mean to go to the extent of doing multiple coats of spar. Ownerships are what about fiberglass then. Well that's got to patch using it. Poxy agassi spar varnish is not cheap but that i do think that the spar varnish is it the fact that i have experience with the polyurethane varnish soaking into this stuff that maybe that will add a little bit of extra protection than than it seems like. It's an experiment and he said it's not like tried and true. I mean i would just stick with shell out the eight hundred bucks if you really want to do this. Eight hundred bucks for your hobby is not not that much money. I don't think especially if it's going to last for ten years right versus two or three right doing it. Every two years two hundred dollars a pop versus yeah hundred dollars for something that lasts ten years. The older i get the more. I think that way. We're like you know. Do i want to do this multiple times or do i wanna just like enjoy it. Put the money and and build it right. The first time. I agree spends money or local skate park. Yeah go to the park This comes from weight in sioux falls. Hulo face in for some more help on my thirty by fifty two story shot build a couple of questions one. I'm looking to do radiant heat under the slab is they're good to detail that you recommend as you can see the attached drawings the second floor will be finished with the hopes of using it as an airbnb question is how do i accurately separate the two spaces from noise and smells while at the same time. Same time allowing some of the heat from the lower space to permeate upstairs. Is this even possible or should i just go original. Plan to use mini splits. Upstairs i plan on using a hybrid wall insulation system with one and a half inches of spray foam and batt insulation to fill the rest. The walls are two by six. I'm sure we'll have many more questions but feel you're up to the task. Appreciate all you folks do. And then you put hashtag cca. I think he meant casey keep craft alive. But i'm a big fan of cpa to wade so no you can't warm the upstairs if the downstairs shop and is gonna be an airbnb you have to completely separate them so i think to systematize is a must. You guys disagree with me. You got them for two different uses. That are probably going to both be intermittent so it doesn't really make sense to have a single heating system for the two separate spaces loan especially radiant system. If that's going in the slab like you know i mean a radiant system warms objects. Not the air really. You know it's sort of like you know if you're outside on a sunny day and you're like getting baked in the sun feels really hot and then you go into the shade of tree. You feel really cool. The air temperature is exactly the same. The only thing that's different is you're getting shaded from the radiation coming from the sun a radiant floor. You know if there's a ceiling or a floor above that which is the case here like that. Ceiling and floor is essentially shade upstairs from that radiant slab so like by the time that got hot enough to warm. The upstairs warming that ceiling and floor. It would be unbearably hot in the shop space. I would think yeah. I would agree and whatever you do wade. Make sure you insulate under the slab. That is such a common mistake. People make and people who are very smart. Make this mistake you. You have to do that if you're going to heat the space at all especially if you're going to do radiant it's going to the coolest thing so you know you're it's gonna cool the worm the court worms you. I think the reason why a lot of people make that mistake because they hear the whole the old adage heat rises but no hot air rises but he he goes to wherever the coolest thing is especially when you're talking about conduction you know. It doesn't matter what direction it goes in. I'm gonna to get on my soapbox to wade with regard to. I don't think radiant tubing hot water. He is the way to go in a intermittently used shop space. Unless you wanna condition it all the time then it's probably fine but if you're if you're not gonna condition it fully all the time then forced air system is going to allow you to be comfortable when you're out there and save some money on heating when you're not so what do you guys think. Is that bad advice. Everyone says oh. It's so nice to work on a heated floor. But honestly you know. How often are you out in shop. And i see people fail to think about. We've talked about this before it's like you need a little more information to make this make this distinction. It's like if someone is working out there as a full time job and it was well insulated then. Radiant floor might make sense but if it's like as you say but it's an intermittent shop for doing projects around the house or hobby or whatever yeah radiant probably is not your your first choice jumping off to the other question. He said about insulating for sounded smell. I mean basically seems like one of the one of the simplest ways that people do that is with those those sound. dampening adhesives in two layers of drywall. Right between between the space above. And especially if you're gonna have a shop down below from a safety standpoint. It's not a bad idea to have that. Thick layer drywall. Drywall layer. Yeah but if you if you really if you really get serious about soundproofing then you get into some of those isolation clips and some other things. But i'm kind of voted vinyl layers of that Heavy mass fine. But i'm also wondering it's like you got an airbnb or you're going to be really running power tools underneath there when you've got gas upstairs. Andy angle has this very scenario his shop as under their airbnb and the people who were just there most recently were there for seven weeks You know are. are you going to shop i. He's a carpenter everyday. So do you think he wants to go in his shop and work on his hours in. How would i don't think he does mostly just a place to throw all his junk junk stone rich anyway. So they were drywall. Ceiling and he made sure to be know. Air seal around his light fixtures gotta stop air to stop the majority of sound. And then you start talking about low frequency sounds. That'll travel through materials. It gets way more complicated. And then as rob suggestion need isolation clamps are resilient channel or these things to decouple the to you know that the materials so they don't transmit sound so andy. Solution was to put mineral wool on the ceiling. Air seal the heck out of the. Drywall layer. And then have the entrance to the airbnb on the exterior of the building. So you don't have some kind of door or whatever connecting the spaces that sound could more easily get through. But it's it's going to be optimistic to think you can fully separate the noise so you can do woodworking machinery. Run woodworking machinery. While you have guests upstairs. I would say unless you're getting into very expensive assemblies. You guys are looking at me. Like two heads no weaknesses figure. There's nothing else to say. Okay so this question comes from a conversation. Rob and i were having earlier in the week with our coworker. Chris who does the alchemy of posting the podcast up our various pla- servers platforms. So he says. Chris has my do all drill bit the dust and i wanted to replace it with something better. I didn't like the size. It was too big heavy was old and it was never very powerful and i want one with a light suggestions. I'm liking this. One and then rob says that's cool for driving and removing screws and bolts if you also want to drill holes. You'll probably want to separate drill. That has not an impact driver if you only want one tool get a drill. The impact drivers are awesome for driving screws. Suggests get both. Can we please stop saying raw that. You can't drill holes with an impact driver. Didn't say you can't drill holes that impact driver. But i if i were drilling holes in metal okay maybe and sheet metal or wood in a pinch use my impact driver but if i were drilling if i wanted precise holes and i didn't want him to hurt myself rolling my eyes i did a little research afterwards and i do realize that there are impact rated drill bits nowadays that are made for drove it. So maybe it's been a while since i bought a set of drill bits but But if i were drilling a piece of quarter inch steel. There's no way of using an impact driver for that matt. Can you talk to this guy. I don't know what the heck's wrong them. Yeah i've used. I've used an impact driver for drilling holes in masonry. I've used for everything. Because i mean you can get the bits that are chuck for the impact for pretty much any material. It seems like these days and they work fine for me. I mean i kinda get what. You're what you're concerned may be. I don't know but you know it sort of is a little bit disconcerting when it starts impacting because you know a lot of times it will spin sort of like a regular drill and once it starts impacting than you know. Maybe you could end up with some. I don't know like out of out of like imperfect holes or something like that. But i don't know i haven't had that issue. I just love the smug look on patrick's face right now. I can't believe we're having this conversation. You did notice that at the end of that Texts that we are sending back and forth trying to get my saying. Maybe it's just that. I enjoy arguing. The patch no. I'll tell you what impact drivers i came out. I hated them because they were so noisy. And then once they started getting better and lighter like you can't live without one of these things but have you noticed that if you go to any big box store nowadays they usually sell them in pairs thrill a drilling and impact driver. And it's almost cheaper to just buy one of those two piece kits. rob. I'm gonna. I'm gonna concede a little bit. Yes if you're drilling. Thick steel with big holes. It is not the right tool. But how the heck often are you drawing thick steel concert in construction residential building to ask. Because i'm always drilling holes and heavy so you can get spade bits now. That have the hex shank chuck and i see la tristesse using those further like instead of right angle drill for small jobs anymore. You know in residential work and i use it for that. It works fine. I will say. I don't like the bosh spade bits and they are great in a normal drill because they drill super fast but they have this screw tip and it's meant to pull the bit into the stock which is fine most of the time. But if you're using an impact driver and makes it start. Impacting as matt suggest it when you're drilling with an impact driver ordinarily if you're not really leaning on it doesn't impact at all unless you're drilling a huge hole so it it works just fine and i love the fact that it has the heck's chuck because it makes it so fast and secured a change bits. You know you you have an assortment of these things you can change in a couple of seconds to drill a pilot hole in and run the fastener if you need to. It's great. I mean we're we're talking about how convenient little slip lock. Hex connectors are on the tips of most drills and and a lot of drivers. Now do member having to chuck a drill into an old quarter drill with the hand. Chuck like an adult man. I'm thankful for the advancements in tools over the past fifteen twenty years. It's just it really makes working so much more pleasant. I totally agree rob. I was thinking about that the other day and chris don't listen to rob get an impact driver. It will change your life and it'll draw all the holes. You need to drill if you need to drill a big hole and steel call rav. Oh we got another tool question right rob. Do you want to launch into this one. This comes from our find homebuilding forum. Yeah so someone who calls himself or herself. No more coffee it okay. Putting up some half inch lately drywall. In my finished addict i used some os. I f thirty eight drywall. He's of unscrews. Do my best to set the screws evenly and just below the surface with a slight dimple doing this nights and weekends. I've got a lot of a lot to do so. It's taking weeks. When i go back to panels i've done awhile ago. Seems like the screw. Sit a little higher. I can drive them back in. Maybe a quarter turn pretty easily. Can't tell if the screws backed out on their own. Or if the adhesive shrunk down and pulled the drywall tighter leading the screws where they were mostly. See this on the ceilings. But that's what's been up longer anyone's seen this before and there are a whole bunch of guys in their giving advice on while you are using the right tool some people say go get one of those dimple drivers which is pretty much. All i've ever used because of our discussion. Because i wanted to help you out. So this impact driver with a dimple on there. Yeah three three inch bit holder. And i mean i'm sure most of our audiences familiar with those which is basically a a phillips bit with this little collar around it that prevents you from driving the screw right through the drywall in makes a nice little depression around the screw and then of course some people said you know if you really wanna do a nice job and and not struggle with just just invest in a real Screw screwdriver devoted for driving drywall. Screws and the thing about those. That are really cool is that they have a little It's not really a clutch. It's basically there's a spring loaded gate gear spring right. Yeah the bid is yeah so it doesn't actually engage the bit to spin it until you put pressure on which allows you to put a screw on while it spinning which means you can leave the thing engaged the entire time instead of having a whole your finger on the trigger and just jam. Those things in there over and over drywall. Hangers will lock this thing on and just it's amazing. How quickly they do it. Yeah now one thing. I will add though. Andy angle was in the form regularly and he said Made you aren't pushing the drywall. Type to the framing. When you're screwing you know sometimes you actually have to put some pressure on it. It's not just going to suck it in like a piece of plywood with with irregular Screw and but what's also probably complicating is the fact that he's got this. Beat of mucci adhesive on there too. So it's like he's got a push against that adhesive and hold the panel in place overhead. While he's using a regular screwdriver to carefully drive screws. So i have a third theory. If this is taking a long time to get done it would seem to me that the framing lumber could be shrinking as the broom is being finished right. Which would make those screws. Potentially loosen up so i think it just might be. The matter of. This is taking a long time. The the lumbers drying out and making those screws loosen up but that speculation. I have a four theory. He's getting the first few screws in there and they're not driven all the way because he hasn't had the panel uptight and he's you know he's going across the panel. He's getting that panel tighter and tighter. And it's sucking in a little bit more. And so those first few screws that he drove are like popped out and he probably hasn't gone back and looked to see whether or not there as flushes the rest of the screws. That's quite possible man. I think that's a good suggestion. I remember one of the. Drywall tapers that. I work with when i was a carpenter. He i mean he meticulously went and checked screws before he went tapes because he did not want to be called back. Friday writing nail pops. Yeah i mean it's pain in the ass but but it's probably not a bad idea for that gotta For for no more coffee to go back in and to give a little shove on the panels but but like you said it's it could be a combination of all of these things not using the right tool not putting enough pressure on the panels and then of course if you've got some new lumber and it's shrinking then you could have pups but it was this an existing space i. I didn't catch that if it was. You know they might. It might be old lumber. So patrick probably the least likely scenario. This is going to let that go. So i just wanted to have a little conversation about my. This might be the oldest power tool. i own. My father actually bought this probably in the early nineties. I want to say maybe relating whether you're holding in your hand there patch. it's a. it's a drywall. Screw this makita. Let me look at the model number here. Six eight zero one db and it hasn't doesn't have a lot of miles on it. I don't know like dad. Hung like five Sheets of drywall at his entire life. I have no idea why he bought this. But i ended up with it. And i've used it quite a bit but honestly you know because i'm not a drywall. Hanger and hanging dozens of sheets day. Mostly use an impact driver with the dimple and with the three inch. bid holder. I can reach an eight foot ceiling with this. We'll standing on my tiptoes so you can actually get a couple of screws in there and then you know Work more at a leisurely pace. But what do you guys use. You still use a nails matt. Yeah no football. What you've got there. I just use the dinner bit and it works fine. I've hung out with iron ferguson jobs and he has switched over. Know he's always used these collated guns or at least one i remember. He used for years yet. He used that and then he had switched to festival and now he's switched to this. I think it's a dewalt collated attachment. I don't i think it just attached to hit a drill driver. But i'm not one hundred percent sure on that but anyway he he loves it so that's probably if i were getting into fulltime which i probably will never do because i love. Drywall probably get something like that. Because it is great having that sort of auto feed. I mean you know you only get. I don't know how many screws thirty fifty screws one of those strips and then you got to change it out but it's a lot better than getting all those tiny little metal shards in my fingers. Which is what happens every time. I use just boxed drywall screw. Yeah so the drywall. Screws inevitably have like bad machining. So they leave these like razor sharp little Piece livers on there. And when you're reaching around the grab screw inevitably they stick in your fingers and it really hurts yup. I got pretty good. When i was doing this work a lot to like being able to dig them out with a utility knife. Because that's what you got on your mobile rate and usually easy to see because they're black awful. Jeff what do you think about the drywall. Fastening scenario yeah. I'm with you. I mostly use just an impact driver. What do you think's going on with these loose screws I think the likely scenario is a combination of the adhesive filling space as it gets drawn in. I've seen insulation mega difficult to get drywall. Tight framing to and can result in you know exclusive fasteners and pops later so if you if you're trying to like compressive bunch of batt insulation that could be contributing to the difficult. You're getting the screws tight. That's why some people actually i. It seems more common in new england but some people do the horizontal furring. The perpendicular furring strips one just to create a chase for for for for work sometimes but but also just to suck in that insulation and not. Have that those bats pressing against the back of the drywall to make it much easier to install. I'd never seen the strapping thing Well outside of this old house episodes when i was a kid anywhere else in the country. It's kind of a peculiar thing to new england but it it makes some sense to me. Of course what the price would. What do you think a stick of one. Three strapping costs right now. You know the funny thing is. I bought some strapping oil. Go and it didn't seem to have gone up. In fact there was even some cheap like they call construction boards they're just like really rough sawn pine plank us maybe for form work or whatever and those for some reason were still relatively cheap. 'cause are civil but did you guys happen to watch this youtube video. I put on the script. Yes it was hilarious. Larry so it's Do you remember that the person who wrote this. Rob can you look that up for. He's the guy who did the video. Yet named stuart hicks and he's a professor of architecture professor at the university of illinois chicago. All good architecture leaks of five point guy his and his whole larry us one of the funniest things i've seen in a long time i. We'll put a lincoln in. Everyone should go and watch us. I i don't want to totally spoil the sense of humor. But he his whole point of view. Is that basically leaks or something. That architects clients are striving for buildings and he uses a lot of very famous examples. My favorite my favorite line was so the takeaway is that leaks. Look different everyone. They can become sources of power for both architects and clients when architects are excusing. The unintended consequences of their genius or when clients are looking for free. Work was so good. But i mean it's it's like a comedy sketch you have to watch it. But but it has delivered with great deadpan Earnestness right. It's it's it's very clear on. What are we getting. Rob what are we forgetting. Now go check website. We're publishing new Project guides every in every month or so. The wiring one is up now and we're just starting to work on tiling so in another month we'll have the tiling website which is full of lots of great things on waterproofing showers and choosing mortars adhesives. And because we never talk about that stuff on the podcast but yeah. I'm excited about it. We're we're just. We're chipping away at every important topic on the website and hopefully in about a year. We'll have a pretty much every topic covered so that you won't have to struggle to find the hundreds of articles on that topic that we've published over the past forty years senate. It's important to mention rob that they're not just articles but they're qna questions and other smaller pieces of content. That often are very focused to the matter at hand right. Well that's the thing is we. We've got everything from simple illustrated tips. That truck miller been for decades that all come from our readers We've got the qa expert in as which people's questions just like the podcast here except they actually get answered. Electorates know what they're doing. Answer them real professionals and then of course you know we're over the years we've made more and more how to videos and there's a tiling actually has hunt agreed videos on on on what especially on waterproofing See you don't have leaky bathrooms. Check it out just go to the homepage. And there's a big huge block in the middle of the homepage. That takes you to all of our project guys. I think that's awesome. Because you know it's looking at a bunch of resources on a topic as often answer some of the nuances or you know. Described discusses some of the nuances. That you know one piece will not right sure well. Unfortunately that is all the time we ever today. Thanks to jeff matt and rob for joining me. Thanks to all of you for listening. Please remember to send us your questions to f- hp podcast dot com and please like commodore of us. However you're listening it ups other folks find our podcast and check out the t. spring Merchandise store t spring fine home building and you can Get teachers keep wrath lied t shirts and other merch from the taunton company. And please do that thanks. Everybody stay safe. Happy building keep wrath alive. Have you building.

golf Patrick mccomb rob watson matt mill Jeff rosen pat steed andy angles andy angle guay Rob dude cabinet patrick Rob
NPR News: 12-14-2020 11PM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 6 months ago

NPR News: 12-14-2020 11PM ET

"Live from npr news. I'm shay stevens. Frontline workers are receiving the first us. Vaccinations against covid. Nineteen nearly three million doses of pfizer's anti cova drug arrived at one hundred and forty five sites around the nation today as us deaths from the disease surpassed three hundred thousand. But npr's rob steiner reports of the vaccine is not without some challenges. This is our gargantuan. Highly choreographed cast planes and trucks or shipping vaccine to every corner of the country. Each file has to be carefully thought and diluted in looted into syringe to make sure not the waste a single drop but officials know. There's million landmines out there. Army general gusts purna from operation warp. Speed says they already discovered at least a couple batches simply addressed wrong and that's nothing compared to what could go wrong. Npr's rob stein reporting congressional. Negotiators are still working on a new coronavirus relief. Package the biggest dispute over a pared-down bipartisan. Measure centers aren't protections for businesses. That might face it related lawsuits. Joe biden has officially secured the electoral college votes that he needs to become the next president of the united states. As npr's miles parks reports the final step before inauguration day will come in a few weeks when congress counts those votes the next step in the complicated electoral college timeline is a meeting of congress. On january sixth the outcome is certain but president trump and his allies say they will continue fighting the results. The campaign and its supporters had filed dozens of unsuccessful lawsuits in alleged fraud in the voting system but none has presented any meaningful evidence ohio northern university. Professor robert alexander. I foresee shenanigans received debate. I forsee some drama. But i do not foresee any change in the outcome when all the votes are counted after that final. Formal count joe biden will then be inaugurated as the forty six president on january twentieth miles parks. Npr news washington us attorney general. William bar is leaving. The trump administration next week as npr's don should rouse reports. The announcement comes days after. President trump criticized bars handling a false claims of widespread election fraud. Attorney general william bars last day in office will be december twenty third deputy attorney general. Jeff rosen will become the acting head of the justice department after bars departure. President trump tweeted that he embar had a good relationship and that he had done a quote outstanding job but since the election trump has been critical of bar. Trump has accused him of not doing enough to investigate unsubstantiated of fraud at the polls throughout his tenure bar has been a staunch defender of the president. Especially when it came to the russia probe and his controversial handling of the special counsel report isha roscoe npr news this is npr news. The newly appointed head of voice of america says the network should be wary of distorted views of the united states as perceived. By many people abroad robert riley takes control of the oa following a wave of internal investigations and to anti-trump bias. Details from npr's david folkenflik the voice of america's intended to report on and model american values abroad in part by reporting domestic political and social debate in his first note to staff. Riley says there's plenty of commercial media already reflecting. Us political debate. He stressed the need to quote present. The policies of the united states clearly and effectively riley a staunch conservative also wrote that his own political beliefs would be irrelevant to his role at voa. As npr reported friday he has repeatedly expressed anti-islamic and homophobic views that revelation fueled an outcry a group of anonymous view whistleblowers written to his boss at the us agency for global media asking for riley's appointment to be rescinded. David folkenflik npr news. The united states has imposed sanctions on turkey response to that nation's purchase and testing of a russian missile defense system secretary of state. Mike pompeo says the sanctions include a ban on all us licenses and restrictions on loans and credits to turkey's defense procurement agency. It's president and three other employees turkey is condemning the boob calling a grave mistake wall street stocks closed mixed today with the dow jones industrials falling one hundred eighty four points. The nasdaq composite index gained sixty two points and the s p. Five hundred tipped fifteen points. I'm shay stevens. This is npr news support for.

npr news npr shay stevens President trump rob steiner united states rob stein Joe biden president trump Professor robert alexander Npr William bar don should rouse william bars Jeff rosen congress David folkenflik pfizer ohio northern university isha roscoe
NPR News: 12-14-2020 8PM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 6 months ago

NPR News: 12-14-2020 8PM ET

"Live from npr news. I'm jack speer amid word tonight. The electoral college has formally validated his. Victory over republican. Donald trump democrat. Joe biden says the will of the people prevailed buying referring to the official count that gave him three hundred six electoral votes to trump's two hundred m thirty two and the president-elect says people continue to do their duty despite the ongoing pandemic. anyone didn't know before they know now but beats deep in. The hearts of the american people is this democracy. The right to be heard. Deb your vote counted to choose leaders of this nation to govern ourselves by referring to the election called an honest free and fair of donald. Trump's numerous challenges. The president-elect said none changed the outcome of the race by remarks come on a day to the coronavirus pandemic in the us continues to worsen with covid nineteen death toll now topping three hundred thousand president trump says attorney general. William bar will be leaving his post before christmas. Npr's asia rosco reports. Trump has lashed out at barn recent days for failing to back the president's false claims of widespread election fraud attorney. General william bars last day in office will be december twenty third deputy attorney general. Jeff rosen will become the acting head of the justice department after bars departure. President trump tweeted that he embar had a good relationship and that he had done a quote outstanding job but since the election trump has been critical of bar. Trump has accused him of not doing enough to investigate unsubstantiated of fraud at the polls throughout his tenure bar has been a staunch defender of the president. Especially when it came to the russia probe and his controversial handling of the special counsel report. Isha roscoe npr news. The justice department is reached two seven with the united auto workers union over a corruption scandal that raised the prospect of a federal takeover of the union in lieu of direct. Control the union agreeing to lead an independent monitor. Supervise it for at least six years. Here's npr's camilo domino's for years uaw officials embezzled money from members and took bribes from auto companies. The fraud and corruption went all the way to the top involving two former u. a. w. presidents prosecutors suggested they could use an tirec tearing laws to take over management of the union but the new. Uaw president rory gamble promised to institute reforms. The two sides reached a deal. The union will pay for a monitor to keep an eye out for possible fraud. It will also ask its members if they would like to switch to a direct election system. That's a reform that the federal government would like to see in place camille domino. Npr news stocks closed mostly lower today after a rally on wall street largely evaporated amid concerns or their congress will be able to break a logjam over corona virus. Relief the dow was down one hundred and eighty four points. The s&p five hundred closed down fifteen points this is. Npr us has imposed long anticipated sanctions against turkey connection with that country's acquisition of a russian air defense system further straining relations between the nato allies turkey condemning the sanctions as a grave mistake in calling on washington to revise what it calls an unjust decision senior. Us officials in a conference call with awkward defending the move though the grounds that turkey's purchase of the s four hundred air-defense systems and its refusal. Reverse that decision left. Us with no choice. Turkey which bought the russian ground to air missile system. Last year says it poses no threat to the nato alliance after announcing they would explore changing their name this summer. Baseball's cleveland indians said they will officially begin that process member station w. c. p. n. In cleveland glen forbes has more t motor. Paul dolan says in a letter to fans the team will determine a new name that will allow more people to come together over shared interest in the club. Dolan says the team consulted with native american groups and researchers and making the decision fans. In cleveland are split regarding the news but some like list of a lotta doubt this day would come even after the initial announcement in july. Now that they are making it official. I almost feel relieved that they're finally doing the right thing. The team will not rush. What dolan called a multi phase process and will continue to be called the indians until the changes made for npr news. I'm glen forbes. In cleveland crude oil futures prices moved in the direction from most stocks today. Oil under the session up forty two cents a barrel to close at forty six ninety nine a barrel on the new york mercantile exchange. I'm jack speer npr news.

npr news Trump jack speer united auto workers union president trump William bar General william bars Jeff rosen President trump Npr justice department Isha roscoe npr news camilo domino electoral college Donald trump Joe biden rory gamble camille domino trump
CAFE Insider 12/22: Special Counsel Kraken (with Joyce Vance)

Stay Tuned with Preet

16:41 min | 6 months ago

CAFE Insider 12/22: Special Counsel Kraken (with Joyce Vance)

"Hey folks this week. My friend and former united states attorney for the northern district of alabama. Joyce vance joined an milliman me on a new episode of cafe insider. We had plenty of news to discuss last week. President trump reportedly considered appointing special counsel to investigate election fraud and hundred biden's taxes on monday in his final press conferences. Attorney general. Bill barr said that he didn't think special counsels were necessary. Contradicting president trump. Meanwhile there are questions about the political independence of bars. Replacement jeff rosen. A longtime corporate lawyer and republican political appointee who has no prosecutorial experience and federal officials announced that the us government was targeted as part of a massive cyberattack allegedly orchestrated by russia. Joyce annan i discuss all this and more on the cafe insider podcast today. Were sharing a clip from the episode with listeners. Have stay tuned to hear our full conversation and access. All other cafe insider content. Try the membership free for two weeks. You can do that at cafe. Dot com slash insider. That's cafe dot com slash insider college students with valid dot. Edu email can head to cafe dot com slash student and sign up at a lower rate. Again that's cafe dot com slash student. We look forward to having you. As a part of the insider community crazy meeting reported on by multiple sources in in the oval office itself right attended by the united states. Sydney powell. His lawyer rudy giuliani various aids including the white house counsel pat baloney. And i think michael flynn who pardoned some time ago. And there's a discussion about whether or not martial law could be invoked and whether or not sydney powell should be made a special counsel over election election fraud and there are divisions according to the reports with most people citing against any powell including including rudy. Giuliani so this is my first question to the two of you is when there is a fight in an argument. Substantively between rudy giuliani. And sydney powell. Who should win that. I need to know whether this is a saturday. Night live setup or an actual real news story. Right was also there. I mean it's just unbelievable that this is the kind of legal advice that the president of the united states is taking. And i think at at some level it's laughable and it's funny but what it really is is pathetic that when the president doesn't get or doesn't like the advice that he gets from competent people he just replaces them with lawyers who were on the fringes. That's that's really who trump is and how he should be thought about and it's so telling that giuliani even this is a step too low for him right and he's been he's been a lawyer for the president and a loyal he's like no. That's that's a crazy idea. I should also point out that there are two things one is that it's very clear that the people in that room who did not agree with sydney powell and michael. Flynn basically saying you should declare martial law. You should seize the voting machines that those folks that people who who oppose these ideas they immediately went to the press as you say pre like this was reported in multiple in multiple news organizations and so it was clear that they were trying to put that sunlight and with the other piece. That really troubled me is that it was also reported that giuliani called the department of homeland security and talked with ken cuccinelli. Who's you know one of the senior leaders there to ask if d. h. s. could impound voting machines in cuccinelli rightly said no. Dhs isn't authorized to do it. But even the fact that the president has his outside lawyer calling senior executive in the department of homeland security. Say can you can you basically go take from states. Those voting machines is really really disturbing. And the weird thing to me. Is you have these people who i think have been somewhat bad actors in the past that includes can cinelli that includes the white house counsel patrick baloney that includes the general bill barr. Who have i think said and done things that we have criticized and have enabled the president in various ways and on this stuff on the eve of the president having to leave office. These are the guys who were saying. Yeah no that thing. That's a step too far. We're not seeing any machines. No martial law. I mean the. Let's talk about this for a second and talk about all of it together. We're recording this on tuesday morning december. Twenty second i believe bill bars last day is tomorrow and in the last two days he contradicted the president on a number of things including saying with respect to the hack that we'll talk about it was almost certainly done by the russians. He's not appointing a special counsel for hunter biden. He's not appointing a special counsel for election fraud. And there's no basis to seize these voting machines so on his way out he's doing and saying some of the right things. I think joyce. I saw you on television yesterday. Characterizing that an particular way but you know what is going on at the end of the term when people who were so enabling of the president in many ways are now putting their foot down at least with respect to the most recent wild requests you know. I have to jump in though and say. It's pretty weak sauce right. It's not like these. People are standing up defending democracy expressing outrage at the thought of trying to engage the military or or take you know voting machines into custody it sort of a very quiet. No very quiet. Push back against the president at a point in time where i think what americans need to hear from their leaders particularly from these folks around the president who know better that. This isn't normal that it's not acceptable that it's anesthetic to how our government works so the fact that bill barr sort of at the eleventh hour discovers that the world is round and says that is not all that impressive to me right. I mean it's. It's clear that there's no rationale for appointing a special talent. So when there's no conflict of interest with doj investigating and look pre. You and i were both around. The john. Edwards investigation started before the obama justice department came into place. There was a republican. Us attorney in north carolina who is running that investigation. He continued into the obama investigation and took that sort of bel faded em case which ultimately didn't result in a conviction but he carried it three to indictment and did and there's. There's just no reason here to talk about a special counsel so bill barr sang will not now. We're not there yet. Is is pretty weak sauce. Yeah it's sorta falls under the category of you get points for doing the right thing and this is definitely one of those examples. Where but it's also such a sign of where we are in our country that i think we all felt a little relief yesterday when bar set. And so you know again. Like i think joyce's right like there's no basis for a special counsel on election fraud. There's no basis for a special counsel on hunter biden right and so i agree with all that but i also i did feel a little relief yesterday and a little bit. Well at least bar is saying what we know is true but yet some people need to hear it. I think from him that the president is really gone so far beyond anything that's democratic and fair and and this other point i would just make is like i keep going back to the fact that people are saying. No but joyce's right. I think you're right that they're saying quietly but it's also like just the fact that the president is trying to do this and that people are pushing for this when again. There's no evidence of election fraud. Systemic election fraud to then go out and have a special counsel it just. It's really disturbing to me that we've come so far into such polarized universe that like this is the framing of the conversation. That bar has to actually go out and say no. I think it's no longer true. The trump is trying to create a narrative. I think he's trying to create a narrative about how election was stolen from him. But i think he's also trying to see if it's possible hope against hope to stay in office and there are crazy. People and i think we can call sydney powell along those lines. There are people who are gonna who are telling him you can take the election back and he's listening to them because he's hoping it may be true and it's a measure and i agree with everything you said joyce how it's week sauce but it's a measure i think of how crazy the newest requests and and steps are that these erstwhile allies of the president are saying no. I went down for a moment on one of the special counsel issues. Sydney powell quite what that means. Do we all agree that to be a special counsel with the powers and authorities and privileges that come with that job. Looks like bob. Muller had that is an appointment made by the attorney general pursuant to particular regulations. And if bill barr doesn't do it and he said he wouldn't and if the incoming acting attorney general. Jeff rosen than i guess. It's the case that the president could give someone he can give someone a title if you want any title. He wants and he chose to say you know three days from now. Will you read in the news. City pal has been appointed special counsel on election fraud but that appointment is made by the president himself you know. What does that mean. She wouldn't have grand jury authorities. She wouldn't have you know other compulsory process. She wouldn't have anything she would. Just be a figurehead right. So if you read about that in a few days should people be worried or not. It seems that she's more likely to become the white house. Counsel than anything else at this point although rose is sort of the wildcard here right. We don't really know what he's inclined to do. The reality though pre i mean there's not a lot of time left on this administration and so let's say trump who so respectful of the rules appoints her special counsel in some crazy way. I'm not sure that she has a lot of time to do anything particularly because there would be a lot of dragged from from the courts from people inside of justice may be from outside stakeholders so we may be close enough to the finish line that it's not dangerous. I mean it really. There really isn't a lot of time. Left mean this week. I think obviously as a holiday week and next week as well people can be working. But i think a lot of a lot sorta quiets for sort of a week and a half and then january first january fourth is the first monday back. Like it's really just a couple of weeks until biden will be sworn in. I do wonder about rosen though right because you know bar bill. Barr had suggested he come as the deputy. Aj he's a longtime civil lawyer. He doesn't have criminal prosecution experience You know he's done antitrust work. And so i wonder you know it's a really interesting moment. The president is going to put pressure on him. I think like nobody's business right. And so like bill. Barr says this shouldn't happen and he sort of setting the table. But now it's rosen table. And so i i am curious to see where he goes with it and what he does and whether or not he stands up to the president and i will confess guys i was like. Is it possible the president would fire him like it's impossible to be fired as a or told to step down with like three days left in the term like anything is possible so i guess the question is how how rosen. Plays it whether he's strong or whether he whether he caves and if he caves whether or not. He's able to turn the apparatus of the justice department to that effect. And i i really don't think he will be able to with the amount of time left with how the lawyers are. Doj know that there's another boss coming and we don't know who it will be yet. But but i feel like that does also change the way people in executive departments function. I think that's right. And and i remember when rosen was first nominated and the vibe inside of doj but also among alums was had he take a guy who never tried a criminal case who doesn't know anything about the criminal side of the operation and make him the dag and preda friend of ours who was still at justice. None but who's no longer there said to me will. He has really good managerial experience. Managing big organizations. And that's really all that. A dag needs so our friend was comfortable with his nomination on that basis to me. That seems to be an important skill for the dag. But not the reason you you choose someone for that job. They have to really understand. Pressure had a withstand pressure integrity and independence from the white house and other sorts of pressure. I agree with that. I think it feels to me. Like the dag former prosecutor in a sense. Because i think the most important thing you do is say no when. You're a boston to know when you push forward when you don't and i think it's just it's really hard if you practice civil all your whole career to then buffet spy to make those decisions with pressure from the white house with competing demands of law enforcement prosecutors. It's just it's really difficult. So bill barr decide to leave. Like twenty seven twenty eight days before the end of the term which is unusual. And and you've talked about this last week. The one thing we didn't discuss as a potential reason is that maybe bill barr unlike jeff sessions has some modicum of self respect. Such that you know. Why keep going to work when you're being yelled at by your boss publicly and humiliated and mocked and criticized. Do you think that has something to do with it. And dare we say it. Would you be more comfortable at this point. Given what bill barr saying with. Bill barr staying till the end. Versus jeff rosen. Well things always seem to get worse with trump right. I mean you think that. Oh jeff sessions is leaving. Doj maybe things will get better and then get her but that said this seems rosy and optimistic. And i think i'm ready for bill. Barr leaves the justice department. He's done enough damage to the institution that we love for one lifetime. Yeah i think there's probably a reason that wasn't what options last week. It didn't it. Didn't come to the top of either of our minds museum. Mix of things and one of them is if your mean. I remember saying this. I said this on stay tuned last week when jeff sessions was being criticized publicly. I asked one of the guests. I think he's been with us at the time. For how long would you continue to come to work. If you were treated like that publicly by your boss in both are andrews were no. I would not come back to work tomorrow. So i wonder if that was those part of what was during. I don't know you know the reason. I question that a little bit is that i think yes i think. Bill barr served the president. But i also think he has. He had his own agenda of you. Know the power of the presidency and his own of the world that he's executed day in and day out and i think he's felt like you know the power of i think he's wrong but he's felt you know strong level of conviction about what he thinks. The department of justice should be and how they should lawyer for the president. And so i don't know i just. I'm not so sure that that that's why he left. I would be more inclined to think it's because the president was really sabre-rattling about firing him and that he did not want to go out fired or that he decided he'd done everything he wanted to do. It could also be. Look i mean. I i will grant this pre like it could also be that the president said i want you to do a special counsel or i want you to do something and they just were at loggerheads over it and that's the moment where bar basically decided i'm going to fight this out for the next four weeks. Embar probably said i won't do that. Thing allowed sycophantic love letter masquerading as a resignation. Letter we We had some fun with last week. Talking about the other special counsel issue and enjoy. I take your point that there's not necessarily a conflict of interest at this moment but if the delaware you was attorney investigation thanks for listening to hear the full episode had to cafe dot com slash insider and try out the membership free for two weeks interested students with valid dot. Edu email can head to cafe dot com slash student to the many of you who have chosen to join the insider community. Thank you for supporting our work.

bill barr sydney powell jeff rosen Sydney powell hunter biden Bill barr rudy giuliani Joyce vance joyce President trump president trump white house pat baloney giuliani department of homeland securit united states cinelli patrick baloney powell michael flynn
Eight dead in shooting at rail yard serving Silicon Valley.

THE NEWS with Anthony Davis

06:46 min | 3 weeks ago

Eight dead in shooting at rail yard serving Silicon Valley.

"Dreaming of a new service. That doesn't also tell you how to interpret current events try fourteen forty instead of cleverly crafted messaging and media narratives. Fourteen forty provides an impartial view of what's happening in the world. Thoughtfully curated by experts in a single morning briefing straight to your inbox visit. Try fourteen forty dot com to learn more and subscribe to get all your news in a single email try. Fourteen forty dot com. That's t. r. y. One four four zero dot com coming up on five minute news. Eight dead didn't shooting at rail yard serving silicon valley biden orders more intel investigation of covid nineteen origin and vaccine inequality in india sends many falling through gaps. It's thursday may twenty seven. I'm anthony davis. An employee opened fire on wednesday to california railyard serving silicon valley killing eight people before ending his own life. Authorities said the suspect was an employee of the valley transportation authority which provides bus light rail and other transit services throughout santa clara county the most populated in the bay area. The attacker was identified as fifty seven year. Old sam cassidy. According to law enforcement officials. Investigators offered no immediate word on a possible motive. The mass shooting took place around six thirty. A m at a light rail facility that includes a transit control centre parking for trains and a maintenance yard. Sheriff's spokesman deputy russell davis said the attack also resulted in multiple major injuries. He did not know. The type of weapon used but said the victims included vita employees will did not release any of the victims names. Santa clara county district attorney. Jeff rosen said. It was his understanding. The shooting happened inside the building during a morning meeting a database compiled by the associated. Press usa today in northeastern university that tracks every mass killing over the last fifteen years shows that the san jose attack is the fifteenth mass killings. So far in two thousand and twenty one all of them shootings eighty-six people have died in the shootings compared with one hundred six for all of twenty twenty. It's the sixth mass shooting in a public place in twenty twenty one. The database defines mass killings as four people dead not including the shooter. Meaning the overall toll of gun. Violence is much higher when adding in smaller incidents white house. Deputy press secretary corrine. Jean-pierre said the administration was monitoring the situation in san jose. She reiterated president. Joe biden's for congress to pass gun control measures. The us president on wednesday ordered us intelligence officials to redouble efforts to investigate the origins of the covid nineteen pandemic including any possibility that trail might lead to a chinese laboratory after months of minimizing that possibility as a fringe theory the binds administration is joining worldwide pressure for china to be more open about the outbreak aiming to head off. Gop complaints that. The president has not been tough enough as well as to use the opportunity to press china on alleged obstruction by the nas. Us intelligence agencies to report back within ninety days he directed us national laboratories to assist with the investigation and the intelligence community to prepare a list of specific queries. For the chinese government. He called on china to cooperate with international probes into the origins of the pandemic republicans including former president. Donald trump have promoted a conspiracy theory that the virus emerged from bartram accident rather than naturally through human contact with an infected animal in wuhan china biden in a statement said the majority of the intelligence community had coalesced around those two scenarios but do not believe there is sufficient information to assess one to be more likely than the other as the corona virus tests through india their critical shortages of vaccination shots in the country. The main method of registration. The main method of registration is through a government website but it is in english a language that ninety percent of indians can't speak read all right. The pandemic disparities already was stock in india. Where access to healthcare is a stratified and unequal. As many other parts of society now wealth and technology is further widening those chasms and millions are falling through the gaps worries. Health experts who say vaccine inequality could hamper india's already difficult fight against virus that has been killing more than four thousand people a day in recent weeks. India's vaccination campaign began in january with the goal of inoculating. Three hundred million of its nearly one point four billion people by august so far however it is fully vaccinated a little over forty. Two million people overly three percent of its population. The government didn't reserve enough shots for the campaign and it was slow to skylab vaccine production then with the country recording hundreds of thousands of new infections daily the government on may first opened up vaccination to all adults that made an already bad shortage. Even worse you can subscribe to five minute news on youtube with your preferred podcast app. Ask your smart speaker or enable five minute news as your amazon alexa. Flash briefing subscribe rate and review online at five minutes. Dot news five. Minute news is an evergreen podcast covering politics inequality health and climate delivering independent unbiased and essential world news daily.

valley transportation authorit Old sam cassidy russell davis Jeff rosen biden anthony davis san jose china india santa clara county chinese government silicon valley Santa clara county northeastern university intel bay area corrine usa today Joe biden us
NYT: Trump & DOJ lawyer conspired to overturn Georgia election results

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

45:58 min | 5 months ago

NYT: Trump & DOJ lawyer conspired to overturn Georgia election results

"Now it's time for the last word with lawrence donald. Good evening lights rachel. Best interview of anthony fauci yet it was. I learned more from him tonight with you than i have in any interview. He's done including the interview. He did with me which was wild. Donald trump was still president and to have the liberated anthony fudge finally being allowed to speak with. Rachel motto was Just riveting television. Thank you very much for that. I felt sorry for you at the same time. Because i knew this massive story was breaking from the new york times. And you were going to have to deal with your our and somehow read it while you were talking to dr fauci. I don't know how you did that. but the magic of of How you do it will be your secret but It is a stunning story. Rachel we have katie Katie benner the new york times reporter who has delivered. But yes so we're going to be able to ask things like what was in that letter this every paragraph In this story has things you want to expand on. And so she's going to join us. I guest andrew. Weisman is gonna join us. He says what he is reading here. His election fraud So andrew weisman believes. This is an additional description of criminal activity by the president. This this is a this thing. It's possible i think at this stage to exaggerate the importance of this story. And you know lawrence it puts a spotlight on something that had sort of stuck out for me when the house brought its articles of impeachment against the president because it was a very straightforward thing incitement of insurrection and they talked about how the president egged the crowd on pointed at the capitol and told them to go but they also referenced. The president's pressure on georgia state officials that they needed to recalculate the results. There that they needed to undo the election the election result there. They put that in there as part of what the president is being impeached for. And this article by katie. Benner tonight is more to that. Point of how. The president tried to use the powers of his office to upend the election result to keep himself in power that is already spoken to in the impeachment article and thank god it is because now that is going to the united states senate. That's senators are going to have to decide whether or not to convict the president on. And here's this whole new raft of evidence about how he tried to delay rachel to important words. Just heard in your discussion with david laughlin about this former justice department official. He said he couldn't figure out what the strategy was. When you were introducing the story you use the word insane more than once because as you stare at it. You're staring at what appears to be insanity because if it succeeds joe biden still wins the electoral costs. I mean if you somehow magically erase georgia's electoral college votes votes which was their ambition. Joe biden still wins. I mean i think that the idea must have been given that they were willing to use mob force against the us capitol as part of their plan and that they were doing different things in different states. Right remember bringing michigan republican state. Legislators to the white house to go lean on them individually. I think they thought that if they were able to use force illegal pressure all these other things that we're trying to get one st to reverse its at the president's insistence that it would set off a domino effect where other republican controlled states would then get permission to do it and it would start other states doing what the president wanted it would start the coup and so they were pressing all the different ways they could. They thought georgia was their best bet. This was their effort to do it. And i think that's how they thought they'd ultimately they'd ultimately ceased power and negate the election. It's just absolutely stunning. That this is not a b. movie that this is actually what we just lived through it. Jd benner delivered. I'm telling hollywood right now. If you just get the rights to this article you've got a flawless two hour movie right there of the final days of donald trump. I'm calling option that Beg your racial very much really appreciate thank you thank you. Well the likelihood of donald j trump becoming a criminal defendant this year just skyrocketed tonight with the breaking news report in the new york times the contains strong evidence of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud which donald trump is already reportedly being investigated for by the fulton county district. Attorney funny willis in georgia. Jd banner has released the most dramatic reporting yet on the final days of the trump presidency with a story that reads like a movie with a seemingly insane president conspiring with a seemingly insane justice department lawyer to try to overturn the results of the election in georgia which would have been both criminal and utterly insane because i just said if the plot had succeeded which it never could have. Donald trump still would have been the loser in the electoral college. Vote as you consider the madness scheme. Katie benner will describe for you when she joins us keep in mind throughout that. There was no version of this game. That would have stopped. The inauguration of joe biden this week. It is the story of a madman in the white house in the death. Throes of his presence. In this story we can see reasons. Why attorney general. William bar resigned in december because he probably knew what donald trump was going to demand from the justice department or was already demanding from william bar. We also see why the us attorney in georgia suddenly and mysteriously resigned his office. There are heroes in this story. Who all threatened to resign from the justice department if donald trump fired the acting attorney. General jeffrey rosen for refusing to go along with this scheme it would have been a sunday night massacre at the justice department in which donald trump would have once again outdone. Richard knicks outdone. Richard nixon's famous saturday. Night massacre at the justice department which was not enough to save richard nixon from drowning in his own criminality. Here's how katie banners report in the new york. Times begins. The justice department's top leaders listened in stunned this month. One of their peers. They were told had devised a plan with president. Donald j trump to oust. Jeffrey rosen has acting attorney general and wheel to the departments power to force georgia state. Lawmakers to overturn. Its presidential election results. The unassuming lawyer who worked on the plan. Geoffrey clarke had been devising ways to cast doubt on the election results to bolster mr trump's continuing legal battles and the pressure on georgia politicians. Because mr rosen had refused the presence and treaties to carry out those plans mr trump was about to decide whether to fire mr rosen and replace him with mr clark. The department officials convened a conference call then asked each other. What will you do. if. Mr rosen has dismissed. The answer was unanimous. They would resi- for hours. They anxiously messaged and one another as they awaited mr rosen's fate and from there. The story only gets more dramatic leading off. Tonight is katie benner justice department reporter for the new york times. Thank you very much for joining us tonight with this important article. I've read nothing like it. We've all read everything that has been reported from inside the the trump presidency these final days especially with the justice department activity is beyond anything. We've read before Tell us how this began. When was one was this plot. I discovered within the justice department. The pressure on the acting attorney. General jeff rosen began literally the day after william people are said he was to step down. He still had another week to go as attorney. General but trump immediately called. Jeffrey rosen and said. I need you to come to the white house to talk to you about election fraud. So from the second public knew that would take pushing rosen begins. And he and his deputy fighting off lease demands from the president to open special counsel investigations to file litigation on behalf of his own legal his legal team and while they're doing what they do. Not know is one of their own colleagues. A top official in the justice department. Jeff clarke who runs one of the biggest parts of the department of civil division has quietly been communicating with mr trump. He was introduced by by pennsylvania politician and an physically communicated to the president of the actually truly believes these these unfounded areas that the election was stolen so as the acting attorney. General is trying to defend the apartment from trump. He has no idea that his own department is facing another growing up. And that sort of comes to the fore number one of the questions. I have a about the reporting in your article. There's a lot in here. It says mr clark had been introduced to mr trump by pennsylvania. Politician do we know who that pennsylvania politician was and how that introduction happened. I don't know how the introduction happened. I do believe that. I never the person's. But because i wasn't able to contact the person in time to get comment for the story i felt like it would be unfair to include the name and chicken just to clarify for the audience. Mr clark's function in the justice department had absolutely nothing to do with any kind of criminal investigation anywhere in america. He was in the civil division. And so when you talk about investigations of this sort. And he's going to the attorney general saying we should either do one or save. We're doing one. apparently katie. Clarify this for me. In your reporting there are indications that she wanted an investigation but there's also comes a time when it seems like he wants the justice department to just say that there's been an investigation reporting shows that he really believed that there had been massive amounts of voter fraud. It was one of the things that puzzled his colleagues in puzzles acting attorney general roseanne. He told them he read things on the internet that they hadn't read the had convinced of this and each time. He asked them to do something whether it was make a public statement saying that the justice department is investigating massive massive fraud whether it was sending this letter to georgia lawmakers. They would say we've already gone over this. This is not true. This did not happen and there was a very serious meeting. That happened on new year's eve. Where the acting general rosen. His deputy spoke with mr parkinson. You really need to office. And instead what he does he went to the providence him directly that weekend that i have and the plan here then announced a to jeffrey rosen. The plan was if you don't go along with this you're going to be fired or removed. I'm going to replace you. And he then says to. I've been one of the stunning pieces of dialogue. When this movie is made you can be my deputy if you want to after we after we knock you out of this job. That really left. Jeff rosen speechless. There isn't really much to say that it's pretty shocking. But i do want to point out. He first approached the acting attorney. General and said. I would like to send his letter with your signature. There were signature. Lines for jeffrey rosen. And for that attorney general donahue richard donahue. They signed incented. Is the original plan was to get rid of. Jeff rosen. wants frozen. Made clear that he's going to do it. And jeff clark spoke to the president about it. He came wave not meeting believing the pregnant intended to to make him the new attorney general. And what did that letter say letter. Essentially said dear georgia state legislators because the justice department is investigating massive amounts of voter fraud. Keep in mind. The justice department has now said many times to the president and to the public that they have never seen evidence of this voter fraud but in the letter. It says because we're investigating Voter fraud we really believe. They should take into consideration. in particular Tasting consideration. when you look at the results of the election in your state it's not so there wasn't anything in the letter there wasn't anything legally that the justice department could do to force georgia to do anything they had absolutely no power whatsoever. This was just a letter saying please do this. You know this is what we would highly recommend based on an investigation that didn't exist. Also keep in mind that there was no information the letter that show the anyone from the intelligence community or the fbi had ever found evidence. This either There there is no evidence that mr corpus working on information from reliable sources. It really just seemed to be. You know the things he put on the internet through conversations with people that you know. He believed that that The election had been stolen. Katie benner very much for joining us. Tonight this is a very important report at is so important for us to be able to hide it from us. Some of the details of how you develop the story. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much journey. Our discussion now. michael j. more he's a former. Us attorney for the middle district of georgia also with us. Andrew weissmann former fbi general counsel and former senior member of robert muller's special counsel that investigated the russia interference. Two thousand sixteen election. He is an msnbc legal analyst. And weiss better. What do you see in this report from katie benner. Three things first. The law second the facts and the third remaining investigation so on the law. I'm going to read you. What the department of justice defines election fraud to election fraud is conduct intended to corrupt. The process by which ballots are tabulated or election. Results are certified so look at the reporting from katie today. And put it in context. You have the president pressuring the georgia secretary of state. You now have evidence that. The president pressured people to the department of justice to pressure georgia and to open up a fake investigation. You pressure on the vice president not to certify the results you have the inciting a rebellion on january six and then put this in context lawrence of. You're saying this sounds like the president just wants an open investigation. Well that certainly sounds like exactly what we heard about a year ago in the first impeachment of the president in his so-called perfect ukraine call which was election interference because it was to have a fake investigation into joe biden so that is all a series of facts that help prove election fraud and the investigation piece is. It's really important now for people to look at other sources of evidence to talk to bar to assistant attorney general rabbit. Who also resigned the attorney general in georgia in other states. You really wanna to find out. Who else was pressured by this president. Not that you need more evidence. But i think at this point. It's pretty clear that more evidence is going to come out. Michael moore you were here when The we had that very very surprising and sudden mysterious resignation by us. Attorney in georgia. You didn't believe on. Its face that this was just Needed to spend more time with the family Turns out this reporting proves you right about that. I reread georgia's statute tonight on voter fraud and solicitation of voter fraud It seems to me like the georgia. Statute is violated in the evidence where reading in the new york times. I don't think there's any doubt that there's there's a problem or the violation of georgia's statue. I mean it's pretty clear here that there's been an effort to solicit somebody to commit voter fraud. I think it also puts the meat on the bones. Apply the us attorney in atlanta Resigned and and i felt like a long. He was likely asked to do something he didn't think was appropriate. And that's what it looks to be now. And i. I'm not you know the administration has gone dealing with acting xlt now but you know this is sort of the classic example at while the last bird may be gone. You just can't get the stink out of the chicken house and that's really what's going on here is that we're seeing the remnants of the trump administration the efforts that he's used in the department of justice to act as his own personal attorney out. I think it's pretty clear that you had a a rogue doj official Took it on himself to try to counsel. The president has an individual as opposed to the institution. Try to castle the campaign. Essentially a want to file. This was not an effort to come in and investigate a case it was to use a statement which has a huge impact if he's a statement from the department of justice. There's an investigation that there's an inquiry that there's a concern that that has a ripple effect that goes on and it would have buttressed. Thank the arguments that you were hearing from sort of the the lunatic fringe of some of the george delegation about You know whether or not the vote should be certified and so it's strikes me as is fairly clear that the us attorney was just not going to play ball with the president's office in that you just said that a lot that more evidence is needed. Are you saying that that what you see in this evidence so far It unless something comes up to contradict it represents material for a federal criminal indictment of donald trump but federal and state and as far as we know there now is no pardoned that the president tried to issue to himself and so one of the many many issues confronting the attorney general nominee merrick. Garland is what to do here. As you know my view is if we are going to be nation of laws it means that the president has to be held to that just as much as an average citizen in fact what he did here is far worse because it undermines a valid democratic election. And there's just so much proof and they're so many leads for additional proof and you no longer have the president in power should've keeping a muzzle on people and he s. You can see from katie's terrific story. People are not willing to talk. So i suspect we're going to hear more andrew weissmann and michael j. more. Thank you both for joining us on this breaking news story really appreciate it like you. After this break we'll be joined later in the hour by one of the impeachment managers. One of the house impeachment managers. We will ask cars when cellini how this will affect the impeachment. Trial will also take a look at what this means to the politics of the impeachment. Trial going forward. With eugene robinson and rene graham way are not here to curse the document we. I had a light a candle. Chuck rosenberg on my podcast. The oath i talk with people who served with integrity and honor men and women who liked the way this week former peace corps director carrie hessler rattling one of the most important elements of service is humility on the part of the person who is serving. We don't enter the community to save people if anything we are saved ourselves through service. Join me for season for the oath. An msnbc podcast search for the oath wherever you're listening right now and subscribe new episodes every wednesday the house prosecutors of donald trump in his senate impeachment trial. Now have more homework to do with the evidence revealed in the breaking news report in the new york times tonight about donald trump trying to use the justice department to pressure pressure georgia into reversing. Its election result. Our next guest just got an extension of two weeks for his preparation for the most important work of his life. That work will secure him a place in american history carson. David cellini from rhode island is a house manager. The impeachment case against donald trump and he will begin presenting the prosecution's case on the floor or the united states senate on the week of february eighth. The first day of the trial is likely to be tuesday february. Ninth senate majority leader. Chuck schumer announced today that he reached an agreement with minority leader. Mitch mcconnell on when to proceed to a senate trial after the house. Representatives delivers the article of impeachment. To the senate which speaker pelosi said. Today would actually happen on monday. So the impeachment schedule is the article of impeachment. Arrives in the senate on monday of next week the day after that on tuesday one hundred senators raise their right hand and take the oath as jurors in the senate trial. The of trial will then in effect be recessed for two more weeks allowing the lawyers on both sides to refine their constitutional arguments and evidentiary arguments. And study this new york times reporting joining us now. One of the nine house managers who just got that two week extension and who's homework just got even thicker than it was before tonight. Democratic congressman david cicilline representing rhode island's first district. He also co author of the article of impeachment against donald trump carson cellini. We had so much to talk about before the new york times broke this story tonight. But i want to go straight to that with you. what are you seeing in the evidence presented in this new york times report that donald trump tried to use a justice department lawyer who he would install as acting attorney general to then pressure georgia into reversing. Its election result will lawrence. What we know is the articles of impeachment charges. The president with incitement of insurrection. And that insurrection happened at the capitol on january sixth. Which was the meeting of the electoral college. This sacred ritual that represents the peaceful transfer of power and. This was an effort to stop that from happening so that he could remain in power and we know this all began with the big lie where he said he actually won the election and he wanted by tens of millions of votes but it was stolen him and then engage in a whole series of activities to try to undermine the democratic election that was held in this country and to try to promote this lie and this is just more evidence of that. This is more evidence that the presence desperate attempt to stay in power the hold onto power to subvert that ended with an actual violent attack on the capital. The left five people dead as terrorists stormed the building with plans to hang the vice president to assassinate the speaker of the house hunt for members of congress and cause incredible damage. Dozens of people were injured. Were hospitalized and five people died. This is the most serious attack on our democracy of our lifetime and this evidence that you're talking about today is just one more example of a president desperate hold onto power to the point that he incited violence against the capital in the congress of the united states when rachel mail and i were discussing this new york times report of at the beginning of the hour. She pointed out. How the article of impeachment that you co wrote focuses on georgia brings a very particular focus to georgia which seems unnecessary in an article. That is about what happened in washington d. c. And i have to say in it while discussing with rachel. I think there was a sense that there was that you were present in some way about possibly more information coming out about georgia when you co wrote that impeachment article absolutely when we drafted the arc of impeachable. You're very careful about the language that we used the events. We referenced and that georgia congressman was part of an ongoing effort by the president again to corrupt the results of the election to maintain power by casting doubt on the results of the election. Even though they were all certified by all fifty states and accepted by all the election officials. This was in everybody president to feed lie a his supporters to the point that they became enraged and violent they came to washington is urging for the stop the steel rally again promoting this story that he had one and i think just more evidence of his efforts told onto power no matter what which is why his conduct is so serious and rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors because it's a fundamental attack on our democracy on our peaceful transition of power which is a cornerstone of american democracy and i it was incitement of serious violence a during a meeting of the electoral college in an effort to stop that preceding. Anita delated forbid. He didn't stop. It became back and did our work but that was the result of the violent attack on the capital incited by the now speaker. Pelosi a said earlier today That you house managers were ready to go. You're ready to go to trial Monday morning if necessary Given this new york times reporting tonight are you glad that you have another two weeks to develop evidence for the trial. Well we are ready. We have been working around the clock all managers with our incredible staff that have been working around the by a. We are ready whenever the senate is ready to allow us to begin. We will deliver the articles on monday and we are prepared to proceed monday revert to proceed in a week or whatever time they designate that the constitution allows them to set the terms of it. We obviously want the preceding to be fair and so whatever time is necessary but the presence lawyers to prepare a is acceptable. Obviously the senate will make that determination. But we're ray monday already in a week in two weeks and obviously we're going to present a very strong case of compelling evidence that the president incited a violent insurrection against the governor the united states and has committed high crimes and misdemeanors and should be convicted of the impeachment oracle cars david selena. Thank you very much for joining us on this important night. We really appreciate it. I pleasure eugene robinson and renee graham. Join us next. Even if donald trump's election fraud scheme in georgia had succeeded joe biden still would have won the electoral college and still would have made this announcement today. The crisis is only deepening. It's not getting better steepening yesterday. We learned that nine hundred thousand more americans file for unemployment nine hundred thousand they join millions of americans who through no fault of their own have lost the dignity. Respect comes with a job and a paycheck. This is happening today in america and this cannot be who we are as a country. These are not the values of our nation. We cannot will not let people go hungry. We cannot let people be evicted. Because they did themselves they cannot watch people lose their jobs and we have to act. We have back now joining us now. Eugene robinson associate editor and pulitzer prize winning calms for the washington post. He's msnbc political alliston nagara opinion columnist and associate editor for the boston globe. And jean What we just heard joe biden say is of course why we invited you here tonight but the new york times has intervened at has now had its reporting backed up by reporting in your washington post about donald trump trying to use the justice department to falsely. Tell georgia legislators that they should throw out there election results and and if he had succeeded he's still wouldn't have enough electoral votes to become president of donald. Trump had a tough case going into the senate impeachment trial before tonight. That case just got a lot tougher. It sure did This is evidence. This is evidence of this. You know really a plan. A plot by the president that omen naked in the incitement insurrection. That is the main thrust of the a of the articles of impeachment. But they do as you mentioned Mentioned the the call was secretary of state raffin sperber That the washington post. Amy gardner got hold of and published in which he tried to to to somehow convince him to find or invent eleven thousand seven hundred eighty votes so he could be steal the state of georgia and now katie benner in this incredible story. Success story that the late. Great ben bradlee and two names for he would call it. A a holy bleep story or a or a bacon. Cooler was the where where you're getting your breakfast and you can get cold. All you're reading this Because you can't pull your eyes away from it. It's an donald supporter of donald trump mismanage. So was always so unfit to hold the presidency I don't put it past republican senators to find some way to to acquit him. But it just got a lot harder. Got a lot hurt. And rene we have a new group of people mostly republicans in the justice department in this case who stand up to donald trump and say. We won't do it. We absolutely will not do it. And that's the thing. That is the roadblock here that he decided in the end he couldn't get around and the day he's making that decision. Do i fire my acting. Attorney general and replace them with this. Stooge is the same day that the washington post is revealing that phone. Call to the georgia secretary of state. And the find me the votes that i need and so There's a certain amount of luck in the way this story turned out. But what is what is clear throughout the story is that it was always hopeless. It was always a madman thrashing around in the death rows of his presidency except the mad man. Didn't know that you know. I gotta be exactly exactly nauseating to think about what we don't know yet. Donald wasn't sitting around wishing and hoping for different outcome. He was scheming and conniving still a fair election you know. He used every means legal. And criminal to attempt to overturn the election. Any telegraph this for years. He was talking about rigged elections back in two thousand sixteen but now he weaponized the full weight of the presidency. The fact that it didn't work the fact that joe biden was still sworn in as the forty six president in no way lessens. The ravi of what trump tried to do. This is nothing short of the attempted murder of american democracy and we watched it happened in real time. We're hearing the details now but donald trump being donald trump. Let us know he was willing to do whatever it took to change the outcome of the election. If you know the details on this time story absolutely stunning but the not surprising we knew this was a man with no bottom. We knew this was a man. Wouldn't there was no limit that he would cross and we're just going to see that again and again and again. I don't think it's the combination of the worst. That i think it's going to be more renee. I'm so glad you make. That made the point that it is not surprising. It's new. it's a new scene in which an insane person as being insane but this is exactly who he appeared to be every day that he was running for president in two thousand. Fifteen in two thousand. Sixteen as one of those predictable. events Gina richardson. i. I think i'm sure what's coming here is. We are eventually going to see that letter that was drafted in the justice department. Because that's going to be an exhibit in the impeachment trial if not revealed by the new york times before that And the the other things. That's the though there was an earlier discussion. I noticed today about. Is it better a worse for donald trump if there's a delay in the In the impeachment trial this suggests that it's worse because on any given day we might get new information of his criminality. And what if there are other kinds of attempts to reach people in other states that we don't even know about. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we're gonna we're gonna amass a whole lot more evidence in these intervening two weeks. I think it is much worse for president. The former president trump have this trial february eighth as opposed to Beginning tomorrow or than you know. Monday coming it's Because of the evidence. I mean he. He did this in georgia. Imagine when he was doing and wisconsin imagine he was doing in arizona to money was doing in nevada. pennsylvania I and it was probably pretty much the same It's it's as rene said it is shocking but it is not surprising. And i just think we're going to learn a whole lot more between now and when the impeachment trial begins eugene robinson and renee graham. Thank you both for joining our discussion tonight. When kamala harris. I joined us on this program. She was the district attorney of san francisco when ritchie torres. I joined us on this program. He was a city. Councillor representing the bronx in new york city tonight. Ritchie torres will join us again as united states congressman ritchie torres. That's coming up. Here is congressman. Richard torres first speech on the house floor madam speaker the dangerous mob that donald trump on least on the united states capitol representative violent assaults on the separation of powers and on the peaceful transfer power that we have long taken for granted. The impeachment of donald trump is not politics law not passion but reason not vengeance status and we as the people's representatives must rise to the challenge of defending democracy in the face of its gravest threat. And we will yield that. Carson ritchie torres made history along with fourteen other freshmen democrats by casting their very first votes as members of the house for impeachment of the president. No other house. Freshmen have ever had their first vote. Being impeachment vote of a president. We first met richard torres five years ago when he took us on a tour of public housing in the bronx when he was in. New york. City councilor seven hundred thousand. People live in public housing in new york city. That is more people than the entire population of boston. Public housing is a frigate for forgotten city within a city in new york but not forgotten by ritchie torres. Who grew up in new york's public housing. I grew up in public housing development in east bronx notice roggensack houses which is part of its own tale of two cities. It's right across the street from trump. Golf course and i grew up facing many of the same conditions that are facts of life here in public housing. Never ending molds a leakage. I which was a difficult thing as matt growing up in public housing without other new york city housing authority. My mother who raced two children on a low wage job would have been in a homeless shelter. She would have been among the sixty thousand individuals in our shelter system and so i'm indebted to public housing for giving me a fighting chance at a decent life and becoming the youngest member of the city council that segment. We did with me just listening. Learning from ritchie torres was nominated for an emmy. Not because of anything i did. But because of the compelling way ritchie torres made the forgotten city a place. No one who saw that segment could forget congressman. Richard torres joins us next. Hey everyone it's mainly msnbc correspondent and host of the podcast into america. Joe biden named white supremacy as one of the biggest threats to our nation's unity in his speeches president on wednesday. And i gotta say. It's the first time i can recall a president. Using those words. At an inauguration. This week went into america. I talked to former federal agent. An expert in homegrown extremism better sense of white supremacy has gone unchecked for so long and the steps. President biden can take to begin a serious fight against it. I think we have to go back to square one. You know we can't have any trust or integrity and the organizations or system if the human elements been compromised search for into america where. You're listening now and subscribe in the bronx when you win. The democratic primary you have in effect won the november election because the democrat always wins in the bronx here is ritchie torres. The night he won his seat by winning the primary for the house. Representatives new york's fifteenth congressional district. It would be the honor of my life to represent this borough. It's my home And i would not be here today. We're not for my mother. And the south. Bronx is full of mothers like mine. Who have suffered and struggle and sacrifice so that her baby boy can have a better life than she did. And the opportunity to represent the essential workers of this borough to represent the powerful mothers of this borough. It's the culmination of a dream. It is now my honor to introduce once again. The honorable ritchie torres now congressman torres representing new york's fifteenth congressional district. Which is the only congressional district located entirely within the bronx cars. Mentor has thank you very much for joining us tonight. And it's no more ritchie for me anymore. Congressman tourists from from now on And i felt the need to clarify that about the bronx. Because there's three congressional districts that have the word brock's them but you're the only one who's who's all all bronx I wanna ask you first of all before we move on to other issues about this new york times reporting tonight and i confess to you. That on inauguration day i found myself feeling That i don't wanna talk about donald trump anymore. And i made a tentative promise to myself that i wasn't going to bring him up on this program. Except as a defendant criminal defendant or defendant in these senate impeachment trial but what we've been covering tonight is new information about him as a potential criminal defendant in according to a former federal prosecutor who discussed this evidence tonight and obviously Additional evidence for this article of impeachment. That you voted for that did make very specific reference to the way. Donald trump was trying to interfere with the electoral college result in georgia What is this information tonight Add to your understanding of the case against donald trump in the senate or sarah's a reminder of the need to investigate everyone the prior administration aided and abetted donald trump's attempt to overturn the results of the election. And as far as i'm concerned geoffrey clarke should be disbarred and if he committed which i believe he did he should be prosecuted cars mature as i. You know i would like to do kind of one of my favorite things which is a meet the freshman segments here and learn about you viewers of this program know a lot about you already. But let's just go to what you to achieve for your congressional district and where you see the opportunity to do that. Legislatively bird is to put my constituents back to work in the south. Bronx santa clara rate is twenty five percent. Which is comparable to the joblessness of the great depression. We've seen a catastrophic loss of income. And so i wanna see Infrastructure package that puts my constituents back to where we need to expand the child tax credit which would cut child poverty by forty percent of the span of one year. And we need to reinvest in of the worst slum lord in the country is the federal government which is savagely starved. Public housing of the funding adjusts pearly gates. You when we talked before a one of the issues for you was the lack of understanding of public housing in government it is government run housing and yet it has. There are no lobbyists for public housing in washington. There's no one there to represent The interest in here. You are now someone who grew up in public housing. How is that going to how you think that will change the way you'll be able to Help your colleagues understand the needs of the forgotten city as it is in new york cleveland. I would not be in the united states congress or not for public housing which gave me something that all of us need a safe decent affordable. Their children wouldn't voiced by let in public housing because of the federal government. They're senior citizens or freezing in their homes with their borders breaking down because of the federal government we have what ca lefty are moment and we should make the most of that fda moment. We should harness the power of this moment to rewrite the social contract a with housing residents and give them the safety affordable housing. They deserve which is long overdue. What has it been like for you in the bronx these days. Now that it's congressman touris- instead of counselor torres. My mother has ever been more excited about watching c. span. I came from the orientations. She said this is the first time i've had dinner. With a congressman. She's my greatest cheerleader on the product of a wise. Who has who suffered and sacrifice us. So that i could journey public housing lebron's to a house of representatives in washington. Dc ritchie torres. Congratulations to you and your mother and thank you for joining us tonight. Always a pleasure. Take care the honorable ritchie torres. Gets tonight's last word. Hi it's msnbc's haze brown these days. There's just so much news to wrap your head around. It's challenging to get a deeper understanding of things so every morning go beyond the headlines with msnbc daily it features britain perspectives from people. You know and trust including tra- mainly mehdi hassan list plank and frank Lucy they'll take you inside the most important issues of our times issues like systemic racism domestic terrorism and how we can bridge our political divide. Plus you'll get a fresh take every morning from the start your day with msnbc daily at msnbc dot com.

justice department georgia donald trump mr trump jeffrey rosen the new york times mr rosen joe biden senate katie benner us Katie benner Jeff rosen ritchie torres department of justice katie mr clark Eugene robinson lawrence donald anthony fudge
NPR News: 12-15-2020 10AM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 6 months ago

NPR News: 12-15-2020 10AM ET

"Live from npr news. I'm korva coleman. The food and drug administration has released. Its evaluation of a second covid nineteen vaccine. It's produced by moderna as npr's joe palca reports. The agency is expected to authorize moderna vaccine for emergency use in the us as it had previously for pfizer's vaccine the moderna vaccine is very similar to the one made by pfizer and biontech and they show similar abilities to prevent covid. Nineteen in studies involving tens of thousands of volunteers. Both prevented cova illness. More than ninety percent of the time. The moderna vaccine appears safe. Although like the pfizer biontech vaccine people receiving it reported temporary side effects such as pain at the injection site fever and fatigue if granted emergency use authorization. Madonna says it's ready to ship twenty million doses of the vaccine by the end of the year. Joe palca npr news. Meanwhile more than sixteen and a half million corona virus cases have been reported in the us. That's according to johns hopkins university about three hundred five thousand. People have perished cove nineteen attorney. General william bar is stepping down as npr's ryan lucas reports. Bar plans to leave next week after a controversial two year. Tenure leading the justice department president trump announced bars departure and thanked him for what he called his outstanding work as attorney. General bar has been one of the president's most effective advisors although critics have accused him of politicizing the justice department bars relationship with the president has become increasingly frayed including after the attorney general said this month that the department had found no evidence of widespread fraud in the two thousand twenty election trump also fume the bar publicly reveal before the vote that president elect joe biden's son hunter is under investigation for possible tax evasion bar plans to leave december twenty third the current number two at the department. Jeff rosen will take over on an acting basis ryan lucas. Npr news washington stocks opened higher. This morning as the federal reserve reported an increase in industrial production last month. Npr's scott horsely reports. The dow jones industrial average rose about ninety points in early trading. Industrial production has now regained about two thirds of the ground lost during the pandemic manufacturing output jumped eight tenths of a percent last month largely driven by cars and car parts however warmer than usual weather in november meant less business for utilities industrial production in china also rose in november but asian stocks. Were mostly down overnight. The federal reserve begins a two day policy meeting. They will end with release. The central bank's latest economic projections forecasters have to weigh the economic cost of rising corona virus infections in the short run against the promise of a successful vaccine rollout in the months to come scott horsely. Npr news washington on wall street. The dow jones industrial average is now up. Eighty five points at twenty nine thousand nine hundred forty six. This is npr. President elect. joe biden is calling for unity. After the electoral college officially declared his victory in the presidential election in a speech. Monday night biden said neither the pandemic nor and abuse of power can change american democracy. He also rebuked president trump for trying to subvert. The national election officials in afghanistan. Say the deputy governor of the capital kabul has been killed in a blast assailants stuck a bomb to his car. npr's diaa hadid reports. The deputy governor mahbouba lama is one of the most high profile victims of shadowy militants who've been killing journalists police security forces judicial authorities and senior administrators while there's always being such killings they appear to have stepped up since the taliban signed an agreement with the united states that will see foreign forces withdraw from afghanistan by spring. It's not clear with the taliban quietly behind these killings. Own whether the simple fact of foreign forces withdrawing has empowered other militant groups as well shortly before the bombing that killed the deputy governor gunman opened fire on policemen on kabul's outskirts killing one deity. Npr news islamabad in northeast nigeria. The islamist militant group boko haram is claiming responsibility for the kidnapping of hundreds of schoolboys. They were abducted last friday during an attack on their school. Nigerian security forces are searching for the students. boko haram leader says they're western education is an affront to islam again on wall street. The dow is now up. Eighty points and twenty nine thousand nine hundred forty two. I'm korva coleman npr news.

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Attorney General Bill Barr Breaks From President Trump Again

KILF Morning New Podcast

04:09 min | 6 months ago

Attorney General Bill Barr Breaks From President Trump Again

"Do you own or rent. Sure you do and i bet it can be hard work. You know what's easy building. Policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Go to geico dot com. Get a quote and how much you could save. Its gyco easy. Visit geico dot com today. That's geico dot com. Only one man knew all of the beatles secrets and he told no one except ed wallace. That story he's coming up for bed. Wallace at the rock and roll history. Seven fifty five a secret. Is you tell no one. Is that so hard for people. It's seven forty one at klif well Attorney general bill barr he. Leaves office has made a break from president. Trump again saying there is no need for a special counsel in the investigation into hundred biden's financial affairs overseas and fox. News radio's rachel sutherland. Joins us now. From washington to fill in the details mourning rachel. Hey good morning Yes they outgoing attorney. General william far has said that he doesn't see a reason or need to appoint a special counsel to look into hundred by then who's under investigation by the irs criminal division with his international business dealings now a lot of time. Supporters have been pretty upset with william bar not because that was kept under wraps during the election now was on the other foot when james comey spoke publicly about the election Excuse me the investigation. The hillary clinton's email during the election. There's a lot of push back on that so We embar for whatever. Reason was keeping quiet on that and He's on his way out. In fact i believe at this point. Probably packing up his office. He said yesterday. If i thought a special counsel was the right tool and it was appropriate. I would name one. But i haven't and i'm not going to. So what does he think. The appropriate tool is in this particular case. In case he believes that this would be The investigations that are already ongoing the Look see by the irs criminal division and prosecutors looking into it and when it comes to twenty twenty election. He said something similar that they're the he doesn't see Widespread fraud in the way that the president has viewed this so Looking at moving forward there is a deputy attorney general who will be stepping up into this job. That is going to be acting attorney. General jeff rosen. Now he's kept pretty low profile at the justice department. He's not a career guy at justice so it could be that he might do something But when he's been asked about it before his been pretty opaque and the clock is really ticking or less than thirty days away from inauguration day. What is a special counsel and what is what is the significance of of naming one in an investigation like this. Oh there's lots of -nificant because the special counsel is an outside prosecutor that can look into Allegations like we saw with robert muller they have subpoena power. They have a power to be able to empanel a grand jury They can have people arrested. So yeah it's it's a big deal and they're difficult to get rid of There lots of times when president trump was either reportedly threatening to get rid of forever. Muller in this case if a special council were appointed Before president-elect biden were to be inaugurated you would assume that by them within. Go on with that investigation. I mean technically collegiate says president trump threaten to fire. Robert muller a president biden could do the same but that's really frowned upon all right. Thanks rachel for the update. We appreciate it. Rachel sutherland reporting from washington.

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