5 Episode results for "Jared cone"

Jared Cohn and The True Story of the Lynyrd Skynyrd Plane Crash

Unstructured Interviews

35:27 min | 4 months ago

Jared Cohn and The True Story of the Lynyrd Skynyrd Plane Crash

"Today's episode is also a video interview, so check it out at Eric. Henley DOT, com, or just find Eric only on Youtube there you'll finally this video interview, but also livestream so I do every week with some really dynamic people including this past week Jim. Clemency, the retired F. B. I. Profiler and criminal minds, producer writer now, these livestream are only available on the Youtube, channel and I really hope you take the time to check them out now. Today's story is with. With the jared cone jerk cone had the rare opportunity to create the movie street survivors about the plane crash that killed members of the world famous rock band Leonard Skinner D-, sadly, though it took him years to actually get the movie to come to fruition, the movie comes out June thirtieth, but his story is almost as interesting movie itself. I present to you, jared cone. My name is Eric and this is unstructured, or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today, we're joined by jared cone and Jared Cohen is a filmmaker and he has a story. How are you doing today Gerege? Today's one of those. Everything go wrong. Turn crazy candidates for me, but I got a few those before south. She got some practice, don't you? Yeah Yeah Yeah. It's it's funny. Yeah, just I've got practice. I've also I. don't even really get to pay. The goal is to not get too praised when everything around. WHO's crazy? Okay so now you just. You're releasing the film street survivors next week, correct? June thirtieth today after our have that. Is that one week today today? Is Tuesday so exactly? You're right exactly on week. We'll fantastic now. What's interesting about this? You picked up and started doing this film in twenty seventeen, which I believe was to coincide with the fortieth anniversary of the plane crash that took out Ronnie van Zandt and a couple other members of the band correct. Yeah I was originally. We were originally going to have this fortieth year anniversary. Thing, and then they are that that plan. fell apart or walk back a little bit. How how did you meet Artem pile in story? So is all haven't through Brian Pereira. Who is the CEO Cleopatra, records, who has an little? is who signed represents automobiles band. There's a man called the this bio band. Fantastic ban they play the Leonard Skinner Jong's and their own original songs. Are On Cleopatra's label I work with Cleopatra. doing movies and music videos. And Someone somehow. Before I got involved, got the talking about doing Leonard Skinner movie. And It, as it materialize I was brought in as the director. Writer and director. and. I got to spend time when. We. Worse working out a script. Reading and doing as much research as I can to write A. Screenplay about this. By the way to interrupt it, you're writing a screenplay about somebody's life I know you've written other screenplays I. Think you've kind of come out of the horror genre. Yeah Coming Yeah I've done some horrible had done a bunch of horror movies. Definitely I've done other a bunch of other movies that are not heart movies. As well, but yeah, yeah, I definitely Don Tamar. So, what was that like writing? Though for a real person? Because now you know you're making a voice in your head when you write a normal script. But in this script, you're trying to write it. In actual people's voices two do keep that in your mind to think of vocal patterns and. Phraseology I spent a lot of time You know listening to interviews hearing the ban. Ban Members. It was a massive research. Undertaking I i. read everything about the ban listened to. Every interview watched every documentary. Listen to all the music and the music. You know you you can hear. Dialogue is in music, but you get a feel for the Times. What's going on? We're on the Salvadoran the seventies. Top artists and getting his input, so it was a lot. It was very extent it was. Extensive Research. A private I liken it to someone's tesis Abor as sort of a homework assignment to. Become educated enough to again. Attempt to be confident. About writing about people. Who die before I was born so definitely a responsibility in in A. A. Tough task so to speak. What can you tell me about the band? I mean just your General Impressions I. Did some research because I I watched the movie and I I didn't remember the band being the major partners I always thought of the WHO is throwing. TV sets out the window and things like that turns out when I did a little bit of research. Yeah, winner skinner apparently showed the WHO some tricks. What are some other things that you learned or or General impressive? He's the. Ron Event those guys were wild I. Mean Insane like it. It's hard like hearing some of the stories. You're like wow. I wish I did that that sound. That is awesome I. Just partying. You have an example story man Tra any like literally getting kicked out of so many hotels that it became. Problematic to for them to book like like. Like people jumping out of windows like things. Getting everything is lit on. Fire destroyed arrested nonstop getting arrested like they were like. Like any to give specific examples, it's just most of it is. Your partying your, you're getting into fights by you're. Doing any kind of drug possible like these guys lived. The extreme rock and roll. Lifestyle I mean. They were in the overseas, getting into fights group Notorious for. Fighting and Artists was notorious for being on acid all-time time. Everyone else is just. Doing, you're doing coke and like drinking. And being so messed up that run like kind. Come time to play like you can't imagine. These guys being out put on a show, but yet when the music for some reason you hear us in, it makes sense when you know when you know what stage lights up you got. Huge crowd bill you're able to. Own Rock was a true that they had to have somebody routier, somebody, yell the porter of the songs from behind the stage because they were so messed up. That now now. When, it came to the music. I never heard that They were so well rehearse. That they know, they knew naked play songs. that was one thing about Ronnie though that was that he demanded they rehearse insanely, so they were. When they learnt partying, they were he was making A. Roger was basically ran ran the. Ran The band like it was Ronnie, you know running was the leader. The tested leader dispute undisputed, and yeah, they they. They would rehearse so long in ink, so it wasn't like you listen to them. Play live and listen to their song and it sounds. Very similar. Like they're not like a like fish, whereas like no record deal version, they're tight, super tight. They're right. There are tight. Tight. And and that was one thing that everybody. Read various contradicting. Stories. Everyone can agree that Lonnie. DEMANDED WE'RE GONNA Rehearse this shit twelve hours, today, and tomorrow and the day after. So. That was one thing. Yeah, they kind of had to be the right with three guitars. That's a pretty complex arrangement. Yeah the big band some music, three Guitar Yeah Yeah. Yeah yeah that. And then you gang with US envy rotating members at the needed to pick up. so yeah. A lot of songs so. A lot of hits. They always came through. They played with the stones and. Artists and that's something is kind of. Through the story, I guess he was almost hired on as a studio guy that got picked up by the band or He came later in the band is true. It was not the original. Ernest was not the original Grammar Bob Burns was. That said Bob Burns. Going back to how they were partying, yeah, he. Really hard and kind of jumped out of a hotel window I. Mean that's having some something else might have happened to him, but he basically kind of went went on. Route three reservations. and. They brought in artists. and. From then on, he was he was. He was a dude rockin out. Okay so plash! Forty something years later because I think artists joined like seventy, four or five artists was playing with Cleopatra. Records so clear Patrick kind did a lot of punk and Gothic and that style music. Was it unusual to have artists pile vanden there? All Right Brian is Pereira you know the the Apache records he is. Is Got Hip hop? Ninety countries got. Boxer artists are is. Incredible Yeah I mean rock certainly talked up. Any. I'm trying to think of some. Tire trying to think of a John or they don't have. Jazz. Jazz Oh wow okay well. Maybe, they're not doing film scores. Then I don't know. They've stopped. They're doing lots of they produce. The Movie Got Canoga there. They've been independent one of the largest independent labels in nine hundred ninety two. So How did you get hooked up with them? Yeah, it was introduced Bryan and acting. You know great brands. Disarm the other day and I'm going to see him at the Premiere I've we're having a little? Shindig out here in Los Angels. June thirtieth becomes out again. I've done I've done. A few might spot is like my fourth movie with them and. I'll do. Hopefully I'll be able to work with Brian again. He's I mean he's he's. He's a rock star. Brian Watt around. He looks like you know he got. He's. He wears the very cool. Mick Jagger style. As he is the roster. Let's call. You represents now. So in two thousand seventeen. You've got the movie. I think he started filming April. Did you filmed the entire movie and have it in the can and looking into distribution and all that? When things went awry. What happened we? We kinda knew that Judy van. Zandt the widow. Ronnie's The widow of Brian. Was GonNa Kinda come after us? We didn't know to what extent. But. We also knew that we had a right to me. Artists Life Story. It's his story she didn't have. She couldn't stop Igli from doing that, but we kind of knew that she was going to try. What made you guys know that is? She has a history of this or Yet and technically Arnold had signed a document basically saying. He can't profit. From Leonard Skinner which is on. Anything he only signed a document. Because technically he did never never had a fissile record the record deal. With their record label, it was a handshake deal. Ronnie that he did so that Kinda came back in I don't want say bit him in the ass, but you knew going in though to that arrangement was there, but we ran the risk because the Young wanted him it was. The. Right to tell artem asylum life story, which happens to involve very much length the band Leonard Skinner in the plane crash as If you were Jamaica. We've out someone's life. That would involve that. Is that what you filmed it the way you did where I noticed that he was in every single scene save one which involved aerosmith. talking about the plane? Yeah, yeah, this is very much arguments piles. He is delete main character and he was he ultimately. Played. The biggest. Role in terms of helping people after the plane crash in terms of seeking help, so he was a marine right. The man was a marine with. A good question, was he now he's of the NFL. That's why didn't know. Maybe off for some reason. Why I don't know that he was in. You know he was in aviation sergeant. Anybody could have been you know. Not Maybe. I don't know that's a good question. I thought that military training may have come in whether it's a non or otherwise probably had medic training things like that, and it was reflected in his actions. Absolutely I mean if you're a marine, then you definitely know how you know set. Tie People's lawns up in China Kit, and you're most likely going to be like in very good physical shape if you. Kept up to some extent with their training, right? It's mostly about a mental toughness because he was injured. If I recall from the actual crash itself. And then wound up even more injured when he was trying to get help. Yeah, yeah, I mean mental. Toughness is paramount because your of your best friends just. All a lot of them died and are very wounded. It's not just you're not just running a a mile. You're also have to like managed psychologically so and he is to this day very mentally tough and Shar and. He's you know he's very well? Put together and and on it like you know of his eight by far anyone better than they not everyone can only surviving Gary Rausing ten. He's been having some unfortunately. Some how issues? Now I, hope he. Recovers, did you? Did you did Rawson pile. Get over it because I think Rawson was also involved with the suit against him right now. I don't think he was. He wasn't named I. Ain't saying. I think. Judy van. Zandt at basically said we now was loop Gary in somehow but I. Don't think I I think Gary and If they would. Just meet up in Stoke. Everything would have been fine by. Judy prevented August from having okay. To artists of now though I. Mean That's a pretty I cannot imagine surviving an incident like that. How is he? Does he have? Flashbacks is yeah PTSD from this I. Don't know how he was afterward. We only know the immediate. How is he a good question? You know he's I. Think he's GonNa really good place. You know you get emotional, you know. Could possibly get I'm thinking about it, but. Considering that like all the other band members got really heavily into drinking and. Illegal narcotics? Perhaps cope with. This tragedy. All is doing really really well, and he's physically healthy like he's mentally Shar, so did he goes away like maybe maybe such a traumatic experience kind of. Pulled back to his core. And he had to come back out of it, and I don't want to say cleaned up his life, but I mean they were partying. They were crazy all that. Maybe he became a little less crazy after. That interesting I mean I all the. He was always like there were people that were just right crazy getting into trouble crazy like, but I think artists. Always you'd always the guy that was there, and he don't use only always party an in to some of the drugs, but he never he was not like he would always like kind of time to get some sleep in the shows the next day like he was never, he wasn't of the. Of the wildest one. But, that being said he was still pretty wild. Hear trapeze into the crowd. Under the stage. But it sounds like he almost was doing it for the show necessarily and not as much after the show I think I read. He often will be the one to break up fights. Yeah, exactly arguments would. You it'd be breaking. Even go to his room and setup is hotel room as his special place? When have anybody else in there with him? He would always go to always go party. It somewhere else go back and. ACID, and and a lot of weed and. His thing was like we. SAW and. You know has added Marine background, so he wasn't you know it makes sense why he would always kinda not be too bad to self destructive. Do you still talk to them now? Yeah, yeah, I should. Call you know, and I mean the com- Alexander movies coming out on on Tuesday yeah, he's a great dude. You know and if there's any longer deserves a movie to be made about their life, it's artem as pile. By far because a rockstar be, he was in a famous tragic plane crash. took the life of. Lives. You know so hopefully the movie. Yeah, I mean I'm just filmaker. I did the best I could to tell the story in a movie, but. Ultimately Hopefully the movie dies does. Justice whatever that means you know right and. Wouldn't you say though this was kind of your big movie? I mean obviously you're GONNA have probably bigger movies down the road, but. Wasn't this sort of breakout movie to full mainstream I hope so. Yeah. Absolutely I really hope so. That's a holiday. Yeah, I mean the movie. Making industry is a very peculiar thing and hopefully Albie overdue. Bigger budgeted projects. Because this movie will hopefully. Garner some whatever it is, but that's the goal at the artist's dream is to be working. On. Top. But? Yeah, absolutely you want. We want butts in the seat I mean. Why would you do it if you don't want people to watch it? It's kind of obviously you want to be successful, but I can only imagine the frustration. Now you knew going in. There could be legal issues, but he shot this movie. I'm guessing it was in the CAN, and somebody went to court and said. Stop distribution or or shutdown or what happened? What exactly happened? It was actually wasn't we were still onset. When we first found out that the. Some motion or or or something or other was? Filed and it was interesting because. Like our last, you know like three or four more days to go and. Like. I got you know getting calls onset right they they basically served US legally, and they want to stop you know everything delete. They're requesting that we delete the footage and. We go go home and is now. Now you know we've gone this far. To finish the down and who can knowing that? We have a great argument. I thought on, and honestly to be honest with ya I thought. we were going to completely like. This case gets thrown away. I mean like the First Amendment. Right to be on childless store. Surrounding, way, I might this is. I dismissed it. Reality is I actually? dismissed it when. am Kinda glad I was in that state of mind. Because maybe I wouldn't have given it mile, and but I just like all right whatever they're gonNA judge is going to look at is and he's GonNa. Throw it out right. This is an important thing to talk about because I. Think a lot of people think. Oh No. I have the right. I have freedom of speech and you have to prove. But the fact is you have the right to fight against it, so you have an affirmative defense, but you still have to go to court. You still have to hire the attorneys. You still have to fight against the people who are trying to shut it down or saying you're taking copyrighted material whatever it is. and. I don't think a lot of people realize that I think they realize. Oh, no, this is fair use or Ono. This is such and such, but you start to go to court to actually fight it. Would that be a fair statement? Yeah, I mean at the end of the day. The legal system is. Favors the people with money because. You. You can sue anybody because Ns and you. You can sue anybody their responsibility for them to defend themselves right. So if I'm if I say to you, is the air you? Stole my story. And I look at it something you've written or whatever any better. I believe logo behind you and I. I made that logo. I'm suing you and you need you know hundred thousand dollars. A UNIT DALLIED Donna I'm just demand. You right reacted the legal cases, and I put together like this fifty page document. Now it's on you you have to. Contact an attorney because you're no yoga. Hell is going on. It's and you have to like appear in court and this and that. And And we'll call it goal and he might actually be inclined. To give me ten grand, because it's such a headache. SHAKEDOWN. Did that happen with you what what was Brian? Doing, I imagine Brian was involved with you in helping. Guide you on what to do not to do. I mean. He's obviously a very powerful strong businessman. It's a and it sounds like he was prepared that something would go down Brian Yeah. He had a great four. Very Smart, very smart guy. He kinda actually foresee foresaw further than I cut. Because when you know when you first get like you know, serve and subpoenaed and. Or depose. kind of freak out by. You gotTA. Know that whenever you are. Like. Making money. Doing like things that. Like! You're going to start to get into space where there's GonNa. Be Locked. GonNa People. Want try to go to law suits and. Sue and isn't that so yes, sir, a freak out! It's a freak out moment. And like what are you GonNa do not be stressed out about it, but probably yeah probably shouldn't because if you if you're doing significant financial. Projects, so let me get sued. We went on I continued the movie and we went to court. And then when we lost the loss, okay, so what happened? Let's break that down because I don't want to. Get too far ahead in the story you went to court and. The judge wasn't who you expected. Yeah, well, I gave okay, so we're talking about the judge so the jobs so the part of the reason this all lawsuit. Existed was because. in the eighties ardennes sign a document saying you know basically saying I I can tell my life story, but I again sell like Leonard Skinner CD's in other profit off their. Their. Name entirely. But and the judge who did that. Diet was the same judge who oversaw this new court case about this movie. which is completely unfair to have the same judge, and so he ruled against. Not In our favor. Because he already I just prior relationship with Judy as a matter of fact, didn't this think is relevant? Though he finished his ruling with the statement, Cleopatra's prohibited from making this movie about winter. Skinner D- when his partner substantially contributes to the. Project in a way that in the past he willingly bargained away the very right to do just that in any other circumstance Cleopatra be quote free as a bird. To make and distribute its work. Yeah, little ridiculous. Now little, snarky on his an Yeah, unfortunately, that judge recently passed away. rest. He was actually ninety six while forget recipe. But then the the to the three new job when we appeal. It went to. Three new judges, the Second Circuit Gore. And Luckily upon reviewing. The previous judge. Terrible decision. Overturned it. Do you think what I just read? Though those words maybe actually helped you. Get it overturned because of the snarky factor IQ might have shown a bit of a bias in there to the other judges, and that's interesting that you bring that up because. I mean these judges had to have taken into account. This same judge is not going to go back forty years late or Whatever you know, thirty something twenty something years later in on a loss. Document and say I was wrong. Dot Com now now now now going to admit thirty years after the fact that I was wrong. Like you're you're not going to do that like you're not gonNA. Admit as a judge that you are that you didn't sign. Make a clear enough document like. So many. Factors? that. Were just not in our favor. Okay, so then you did actually get overturned by the second district core. and. I think it was twenty, eight, hundred and something like that or Yeah, now, of course everything goes slowly so the movie is slated to come out February of this year. And ably what now? Covert. I mean I'll tell you the wheels of justice and the timing of every Yang. Man, yeah, it was really. because. This year I mean not that. The year a very weird year to I. Don't think anyone wants twenty twenty two to. Continue to be a good year or continued. Even be a year, but they're still Or we got about. Five and a half Mont left now seven. A six and a half. Sorry, yeah I know I'm trying to rush the year along, too. I'm I'm I'm thinking I'm wishing you wishing well right? Yeah, JOAN Six Yeah we got. Oh, yeah, give her. But yeah, what a year! What a year and Yeah and. People are just so digits, but you sorta have to adapt to the. Mindset I. Hope the movie does low. You know I mean. At the end of the day Bhagat grew it. It was a nightmare and it was. Really depressing. Off The deal is worth and. I, you know. They froze Brian Assets. Wow, the it was. Awful like. I'd never. Want some of that the experience like what I had to go through over the. Fourth time, but it makes. It makes the the defeat. A little bit better. When is a good film and I? Guess the good thing is no matter what even if you tripped out the gate through circumstances, obviously not. But with covert with everything else, you still have a piece of work on the record. You still have this calling card for another film down the road, or for Cleopatra to produce the story or something like that, so that's still good. It's still out there. We we exactly we won the movies coming out and yeah, there was a lot of people that were like. Trying to stop us, and we have great fucking underdog like like literally. They try to stop me anytime. Awesome we did he eat them, so there is that element. Like it should feel really good, but at the same time like it's. It's been so drawn out so long like the feeling of goodness is your so Austin by the time. It's like it's like boxer. The twelfth round. Incision comes in your wind, but like it could've went anyway. You know what I mean. You're so tired that you're defying good. GimMe the Gimme that Gimme the win and I'm GonNa go home and go to bed. What good news just premiers June thirtieth at? Where can people get Amazon I tunes? You know Kinda, wherever this Google it, but definitely I on itunes them maybe neck Alexa. Pick it up or Hulu or You know nowadays with so many different streaming services at will make the rounds like. For a bit Nigo over there you can buy it on Youtube for six months, and then you can watch it for free on Amazon and and three months later then. It's. I tune and showtime license I. The whole other town as a whole other five other conversations. Streaming Galaxy Awesome now. Where can people find out more about us at Jared Cohen? Dot Com and it's Cohen without any without a yes time. My name like happy happy to have you as a new baller Jerry Cohen. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you very thank you. And thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard, please consider subscribing for free and I mean four free. It is always free. There's no billing anything else you can in your player of choice, which is probably right in your hands, or you can good unstructured pod dot com, and there are plenty of links there. Thank you so much and in the. The spirit of sharing here's a couple more shows you may WANNA. Check out what was that like might just be the most intriguing podcast you'll ever hear. Each episode is a conversation with a regular person who's been through an extremely unusual situation like Jeremy, who was bitten by a rattlesnake for Jennifer. Who accidentally killed someone or luke who got caught smuggling cocaine? Real people in unreal situations listen and subscribe at what was that like dot com laughter tears, some liberties, newsmakers, anecdotes and recipes. Wait hours wrong. They don't do recipes. You can't hear food join host Randall Kenneth Jones a man who has up the original cowboy in the village people and answer Susan's. He been at a woman who is the original voice of Siri every week on Jones, dont show a podcast so accessible. Its name is a web address. Www Dot Jones dot show.

Leonard Skinner Times Ronnie van Zandt Cleopatra Brian Judy van Brian Yeah Youtube Jared Cohen Brian Pereira US Eric jared cone Leonard Skinner Jong Artem pile attorney Brian Watt DOT
Accidental Leaders: How Eight U.S. Vice Presidents Changed History

Knowledge@Wharton

25:09 min | 1 year ago

Accidental Leaders: How Eight U.S. Vice Presidents Changed History

"Podcast is brought to you by knowledge award. There have been eight times in American history when the president has died in office, and the vice president has taken over these were men who are not elected to be head of the country, and in some cases weren't even the first choice of their own party. But yet they vastly changed US history. The men included John Tyler Millard, Fillmore, Andrew Johnson, Chester a Arthur Theodore Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman, and Lyndon B Johnson, a new book looks at what these men accomplish. And why half of them were actually reelected. The book is titled accidents presidents. Eight men who changed America. It's written by Jared cone CEO of jigsaw at alphabet. Cohen also spent five years as a member of the secretary of state's policy planning staff, and was a close advisor to both Condoleeza Rice and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Jared pleasure to have you with us today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I have to ask it the top in looking at all these examples one that came. Mind. That was not included. Was Richard Nixon, and Gerald Ford. Yes, I debated this. When I when I went out to start writing the book, and what I concluded is the thing that was most interesting. And most compelling was the unexpected and abrupt transfer of power. If you look at the Nixon Ford transition, the transition didn't happen, upon the death of the president, it was sort of drawn out, it was it was related to scandal, and resignation and it's abrupt dramatic unexpected death in office that throws the country into a tailspin and abruptly elevates, a man, nobody thought was going to be president, the case afford so long as the Watergate hearings were happening in the lead up to people began to experience the idea and get used to the idea that Ford might become president. So as I mentioned, the top four these gentlemen, that you write about the book actually were re elected, so we have some examples here of vice president who became president who did a very. Good job. But also, you have examples of ones that didn't have a great time as the as the executive. That's correct. And I think what I'm struck by, in writing this book is how we basically wing two presidential. Succession, you don't have the twenty fifth amendment formalizing the fact that the vice president becomes president when their predecessor dies office until after JFK is assassinated. And so you get these men who are thrust in power who were thrown on the ticket, either as punishment in the case of teddy Roosevelt, or because they were the available man in the case of Millard Fillmore, but in each infants they rose to the pinnacle of power some of the most seminal moments in our history. So let's take, you know, ABRAHAM LINCOLN ABRAHAM LINCOLN is absent towards the tail end of the civil war, and we're supposed to get his vision for reconstruction, instead, the bullet of John, Wilkes, booth gives us Andrew Johnson. The last president owns waves who instead of following Lincoln's path ends up resurrecting many elements of the confederacy, we're joined on the phone by Jerry code who is the author of the book access. Dental presidents your comments are welcome at eight four four Warton, eight four four nine four two seven eight six six or if you'd like to comment on Twitter at biz radio one thirty two or my Twitter account, which is at Dan loan, yellow any y Twenty-one. What was the what was the impetus for wanting to do a book like this, because it's interesting when you role as CEO of jigsaw. It sounds like American history is very much an interest of yours when I was eight years old. My parents bought me children's book about the president's and when you're an eight year old and you're reading a book about the president's it's supposed to be innocent experience. But I v in on the eight instances, where president died, and my poor parents had to have conversations about death and assassination, and I never quite let it go. So when my wife was pregnant with our eldest daughter, I needed a nesting activity and decided after a life of reading biographies related to these abrupt transfers empower and collecting presidential memorabilia, including locks of presidential presidential hair, which is weird really? I decided this was going to be my nesting activity, and there's something nice about being CEO of, of an organization in an industry focus in Tirlian on the future, and spending my down time, reading about John Tyler Millard, Fillmore teddy Roosevelt, Alvin caused. It's very therapeutic and good for the soul. Who was of these eight men, who do you think was was probably the most accidental of the accidental presidents? Well, John Tyler certainly was the most accidental because the framers hadn't thought much about the vice presidency and didn't really want one in the first place. The vice president was added at the last minute as an electoral mechanism and William Henry Harrison dies after just thirty days in office. John Tyler has to race back from Virginia, because there's a debate that ensues with the cabinet the that he inherited about whether he's the president or the acting president. Yes. To spend his first month in office debating with congress, why he's not acting president. He ends up setting oppressive. That was followed seven more times, including all the way up to LBJ LBJ becomes president based on the precedent set by John Tyler in eighteen forty one and it ends up disastrous Tyler who's not really a wig. But it's thrown on the ticket to win Virginia, which they lost and give a nod states. Right. As ends up getting kicked out of the party. And in a moment of political rage animosity decides to annex, Texas and precipitate war with Mexico, Harry Truman. Probably the, the most predictable of this group of because of, of the illness issues that are had Harry Truman was both the most predictable, and in many respects the most ill prepared for the moment. And when you read about FDR and Harry Truman, it's endlessly frustrating because Truman during his eighty two days as vice president remember, he's thrown onto the ticket, because the party bosses no FDR is going to die, and they can't fathom the idea of Henry Wallace, who seen as Soviet sympathizer and ultra liberal liberal ending up as. Resident Truman during his eighty two days as president, he meets FDR twice doesn't get a single intelligence briefing, doesn't mean a single foreign leader. Isn't briefed on the Manhattan project isn't read into the war. And then he wakes up on April twelfth nineteen forty five five himself as president at the height of the war in the Pacific. You know, he's trying to figure out how to engage Churchill Stalin's reneging on every one of his promises from y'all to and yet Truman ends up being remarkable success. Yes. To make more seminal decisions, and it's I four months in office and probably any president who came before him, one of the big seems in the book and surrounds, the twenty fifth amendment, which is obviously getting some conversation right now as well. But this goes back in time to the days of, of LBJ JFK. And obviously this assoiation president Kennedy and take us into it for a second. The importance you'd think that the twenty fifth amendment has really had potentially for the presidency if it is needed to be in VO. Act which it has been a couple of times in, in recent years for when presidents have gotten sick. So with the mazing is the twenty fifth amendment gets passed at the end of LBJ's administration. And the first time it gets put into motion is, is actually not that the president the vice president Wednesday or two yak new resigns office. You know, Richard Nixon uses the twenty fifth amendment to replace him with Gerald Ford, and essentially pluck him from Michigan's fifth district. What what's fascinating is of the eight accidental presidents six of the vice presidents who ascended nearly died in office themselves. And yet, there was no provision of replacing the vice president of United States until the twenty fifth amendment. This, this sustained constitutional vulnerability that we left ourselves exposed to for most of the history of the Republic. The time of the twenty fifth amendment should have really been put in place was when Reagan was shot when Reagan was shot in eighty one the cabinet. A decision that, you know, it was a dangerous precedent for them to set to decide that Reagan was disabled. And so they chose not to vote the twenty fifth amendment. That's how you get the kind of elite type moments what's interesting is the twenty fifth amendment has only been exercised in terms of presidential disability for colon Oskoui's literally yet see an instance of the twenty fifth amendment being vote to temporarily discharge the duties of president or the vice president for any instance, other than a colonoscopy, George. George W Bush was one, and I believe President Reagan as well. Correct. Yes, that's correct. We're joined by Jerry Cohen, who's the author of the book, accidental president, your comments, welcome at eight four four Wharton. Eight four four nine four two seven eight six six or if you like Senator comment via Twitter either at biz radio one thirty two or my Twitter account, which is at Dan Loney, Twenty-one, I guess when you look at all of these different examples, the JFK LBJ one is probably one of the most talked about and, and remembered. Because of its timing, and also because of the fact that it was really in the starting to be in the TV agent in, you know, being able to see the video of what occurred. But then you also have to go back to Lincoln because of how that played out the nation by John Wilkes booth, and then also his successor, Andrew Johnson. So when I interviewed Jesse Jackson for the book, he said that when he learned of JFK's assassination, he felt like it was double facination won the president of the United States into civil rights people expected LBJ to be eight disaster for the civil rights movement, and what proved to be true with that the Kennedys were prepared to pay lip service to civil rights. They weren't really willing to back it up with real action. Particularly not in the lead up to the nineteen sixty four election. So I do believe that my write about this in the book that had Kennedy. Not had Kennedy survived. I think it's very unlikely you would have had the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. You know, I also think that we overstate. Late. This idea that Kennedy wouldn't have gone down the same slippery slope in Vietnam, that LBJ did, I think that, that's largely architect by the guardians of Kennedy's reputation. If you look at the history of succession in, in this country, we look at the assassination of JFK as sort of, you know, incredibly dramatic moment in history because it's the most recent and it's also something that played out on television. But when you dig into the impact that assassination had at other times in our history Lincoln Garfield McKinley. There was a similarly dramatic impact and sustained period of mourning that ensued, and we just have forgotten, what that's like we're in the longest period of time without a president dying in office. How do you believe that, that Andrew Johnson should be remembered in his term, you know, following Lincoln? So Andrew Johnson proved to be the biggest disaster of all of the accidental presidents. And when we look at how we wind presidential succession throughout history, we got more or less pretty lucky navigating through except for the Andrew Jackson. They enter Johnson moment. And it was a moment of great significance. Johnson was put on the ticket eighteen sixty four because at the time he was the only southern Senator who had stayed loyal to the union. He wanted to put the union back together so badly that his rhetoric on civil rights and punishment of traitors was even more forward leaning than Lincoln. But once the racist, always racist, and when the civil war, ended Andrew Johnson. Remember he was the last president to own slaves. Andrew Johnson, the his true color showed, and he ended up, you know, giving amnesty almost everybody delegating civil rights to the states. It pave the way for the black codes, which are the precursor. The Jim crow laws and the interesting thing about Andrew Johnson, a an amazing story that you people know, he was completely neabry aided when delivering his oath of office as president, and he basically stood up there. Completely hammered insulting every single person. There Lincoln's hands are headed buried in his hands. He can't remember the name of certain members of the cabinet he slobber all over the bible with, like drooling kiss. And then Lincoln to reduce the awkwardness when they go outside points out Federick Douglas at the time is the most famous ex wave in the country and Frederick, Douglass, writes in his autobiography that I looked at the glare and that man's eyes and I knew that he was no friend of my race. And what Frederick Douglas didn't realize the glare and his eyes that he was completely hammered. The conclusion was corrected. Andrew Johnson was no friend of his race. But then he gets put into office after Lincoln says the nation and I would imagine, you know, he had to he's he has to be taken aback by the first by the fact that he. Was in there because of the fact that, that these assoiation Lincoln was, was so shocking to so many people, and as you lay out, he did not have a great time as the leader of the United States. One of the things I point out in dental president is that in an era, so you look today in a narrow social media. The vice president would immediately that their president on in case of Andrew Johnson. Yeah, the knock comes on his door, and he's supposed to be assassinated that night as well except Georgetta rod, who was his would be fastened. Got drunk at a nearby tavern? So enter Johnson goes to the Peterson home where ABRAHAM LINCOLN is, is essentially on his deathbed and everybody. There knows Andrew Johnson is going to be president of the United States because everybody knows Lincoln is dying, but he's asked to leave the room because he's making Mary Todd Lincoln uncomfortable. Right. Then when he takes the oath, the next day, Mary Todd Lincoln refuses to leave the White House for many weeks. She auctioned off most of the items in the White House, and then a week later, Andrew Johnson ends up. You know, so. Incredibly ill that he ends up more or less on a deathbed, and they notify the president pro temporary who's out west man name lobbying foster, and, and tell him that he needs to rush back to Washington, because enter Johnson might die. We're joined on the phone by Jerry Cohn, who's the CEO of jigsaw at alphabet. He is the author of the book, accidental presidents here on Sirius XM one thirty two business radio. Powered by the word school, then, oh, of all of these gentlemen, is there one that is kind of maybe more under the radar. That is a least talked about accidental president. I think the one that's most interesting at least talked about and relevant for today, Calvin Coolidge. Because if you look back at history of the most scandalous administration, I in the history of Republic was the war, and hurting administration, you had teapot dome, you had a massive scandal at the veterans bureau, the attorney general was complicit in everything from fight fixing stock manipulation bootlegging and various other shady, activities, and warrant hurting dies out west an incredibly popular man, but the scandals in his administration or a ticking time bomb that threatens to destroy the Republican party and his administration, Calvin Coolidge ascends to the presidency. He finds out about all the scandals a couple of weeks into the presidency, you have less than a year before the nineteen twenty four election and the scandal break three months later, so Calvin Coolidge, does something, very clever, which is he cultivates an image of himself, so boring so relevant. You know what's called silent cow that I couldn't have possibly been involved in any of this. And what's interesting is, whether he did that or not. And he sailed to victory in nineteen twenty four the economy was booming to such an extent in the nineteen twenties that I don't think that Americans cared. If it was Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover in the early years, whether there were scandals, whether it was clean as long as the good times, we're rolling in and the roaring twenties continued, I think the lesson for today is that the economy Trump's gamble Chester a Arthur, succeeded Garfield, and he was thought I guess that he was not going to have a great presidency. But apparently, I guess he did okay because of the, the understanding that he had of Garfield 's kind of path that he wanted to take the country, correct? So you have never seen a bigger one eighty turn around in the history of the Republic, and the turnaround of Chester Arthur after he ascended to the presidency. James Garfield was the only man ever. To get the nomination for his party and win the presidency without seeking in the first place, basically, when the party bosses got frustrated between debate over USA's grant, and James. Blaine Garfield name was thrown into the hat, and he ended up as the nominee against his. Well, he's one of the most beloved men in the country by both parties by all sections by all races. And then he shot by an insane office seeker four months into his presidency Chester Arthur was a machine politician, who was so vain that he changed the year of his birth to see younger head spent his entire time as by president undermining Garfield. I mean he literally cared more about patronage in New York than he did his own administration, and forwarded it every at every step, there's a scene where where we're Chester Arthur, and machine boss. Vasco conquering barge into president-elect Garfield room at one in the morning on the eve of his inaugural address to kind of intellectually rough him up. But when Garfield is this acid? Dated Arthur has to more or less go into hiding for a month and some change because people are blaming him for the nation since the assassin plan to do it on behalf of Arthur, and then something amazing happened since we like to talk about trolling, and trolling as it relates to the president today. Arthur's impacted by the very first average citizen to troll. The president and get a reaction that woman named Julius, and who lived on the upper east side of in Hatton wrote him, these long, you know, you know, balti- page letters telling him what a despicable man, he was. But they were still hope for him comparing him to some of the worst characters in the court of Henry the eighth. And we know that these letters had an impact on Chester Arthur because one day he showed up in his presidential carriage outside of her townhouse on the upper east side have been Hatton, and came in and spend some time with her. How do you put where are should say? Where do you put teddy Roosevelt in this mix? I think that teddy road. So teddy Roosevelt is the only one of the accidental president who almost certainly would have ended up as president himself, LBJ was certainly qualified. He waited too long to, to join the nineteen sixty campaign teddy Roosevelt is your classic example of somebody who ended up in the vice presidency as a containment strategy by New York party bosses who wanted to punish him by exiling him to the political of Elba. But teddy Roosevelt was such an outside personality for his day, two things happened as a result of his presidency one. He ushered in an era, progressivism that probably wouldn't have been ready for election in nineteen. Oh one. When he ended to the to the presidency, y'all fundamentally changed the scope of US foreign policy, but we should consider ourselves fortunate that teddy Roosevelt didn't preside over war as president, you know, if he if you put him in modern day context, he's as fascinating as he is crazy and, you know, his fascination with war, and his love for. War and adventure would have been a dangerous thing as commander. And she's you spend a chapter in the book also looking at close calls, and obviously, one of them, you mentioned it before President Reagan when he was shot by John Hinckley. How important is it to also cover that part of the story, as well? With has a variety of different instances of those close calls, where president almost was killed. I mentioned that one of my frustrations in writing the accidental. President is that we didn't learn our lesson at any step of the way and we allowed this constitutional vulnerability to sustain when I talk about nineteen close calls in addition to the eight presidents who were assassinated, eight presidents who died in four who were assassinated. These are legitimately close calls. We're talking about Andrew Jackson shot at point blank and the gun mouth functioning. Yeah, we're talking about. Gerald Ford shot at point blank. And then a second time from a distance one time the gun now function. There's an incredible story of FDR. President-elect. He's giving a speech in Miami in February of nineteen thirty three he sitting on the back of the Buick in his three car motorcade and a man named Zep he's on and talion immigrant fires five shots in fifteen seconds at him. A hundred pound woman named Louis and cross saw him pull up the gun and smacked him with her purse. It's watered, his aim. He missed FDR by about three inches ends up killing the mayor of Chicago whose impound as well, as you know, three or four others, but this extraordinary woman in her purse, save the new deal. And then there's an another amazing story where president elect Kennedy was stocked by literally disgruntled, postal worker. It doesn't get more cliches and that he filled his he filled also his Buick. I don't know why Buicks keeping an appearance here, but he filled his Buick with enough enough dynamite to blow up the entire city block outside of his house, in Palm Beach. And he didn't end up going through with it because as Kennedy came to the door to go to church. He saw one of. Kennedy children marron felt bad. So he follows JFK to church built his pants dynamite has hand on the trigger in his pocket. And it's ready to do it. Standing four feet away from the president elect and then sees a bunch of children. And once again, doesn't do it, so it's extraordinarily all the talk about suicide bombing and so forth. And the context of modern terror we almost had one of our most famous presidents as president-elect killed by a suicide bomber, and it is something that should be noted the fact that we've gone so long now without having a president assassinated, obviously, there have been attempts in recent years. But, but we have not had one killed in office. And yet, isn't it amazing that we enter the twenty twenty election. We have the oldest president ever in the history of the country and two of the most serious contenders on the democratic side are both in their late seventies. So my conclusion is I still don't think we've learned very much from our history. We still treat the vice president as a marriage of political convenience when a candidate. Needs a bump in the polls. And I think you look at, you know, the various gimmicks of coming out of the gate with running mate, or you know what was tried Sarah Palin with John McCain. You know, it's still see, it's so long as it's the sole toys of the campaign and not the choice of the party, it's going to continue to be viewed as an election play. What do you think that then could potentially be the impact of, of the twenty fifth amendment moving forward? Especially with what we've seen in reason recent conversation about that amendment, and surrounding President Trump by people in Washington DC. Well, one of the things that's really important is precedent, right? So once you have a situation the, the very first time where the twenty fifth amendment gets used to, to replace the president, with the vice president based on something other than, you know, serious illness, or even, you know, sort of being under general anesthesia, you run a very you have to be very thoughtful about that. So even if you impeachment impeachment is used as a political tool because when the first impeachments against the president happened with John Tyler in eighteen forty two it was used as a political tool by the Whigs to get, John Tyler kicked out of his own party, and they didn't succeed, impeaching the president. But the radical Republicans did succeed in impeaching Andrew Johnson. As a way to try to get him out of office, he was saved by one vote from conviction in the Senate. And I think if you just look at the partisan split of Bill Clinton's impeachment, you also conclude that, you know, impeachment was used as a political tool. So we have to be very, the bar should be extremely high for exercising, the twenty fifth amendment and it should not be used as a way to say, we don't like the president's policies, and therefore, the president must be mentally disabled, I think that that clause in the constitution. Was imagine more for a scenario like when James Garfield sat on his deathbed for eighty days before, succumbing to his wounds or Woodrow Wilson suffered? A debilitating stroke in his final year as president. It's a fantastic book. Jared, congratulations on it all the success with it, and we look forward to talking again the sometime down the road. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Jerry cone CEO of jigsaw at alphabet, the book, as we mentioned is titled accidental presidents. Eight men that changed America. It is fantastic. Read it is valuable in bookstores and online for your purchase right now for more insight from knowledge, at Warton, please, visit knowledge dot Morton dot U. Penn dot EDU.

president vice president Lyndon B Johnson ABRAHAM LINCOLN ABRAHAM LINCOL President Reagan JFK US acting president Arthur Theodore Roosevelt Kennedy CEO LBJ John Tyler Gerald Ford Harry Truman Richard Nixon Jared cone Chester Arthur Andrew Johnson FDR
Barr Testimony & Accidental Presidents (with Jared Cohen)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:05:44 hr | 1 year ago

Barr Testimony & Accidental Presidents (with Jared Cohen)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm Preet Berar typically vice president is chosen to win a state balance the ticket appeased constituency as you pointed out, historically, there's no evidence that it does any of those things you're incentivized as the party's nominee to choose somebody who is sufficiently boring that they won't upstate you. But not so boring and problematic that they're going to embarrass you. So you basically want a sort of JV version of yourself. My problem with that is I don't want the JV version of the party's nominee potentially one heartbeat away from the presidency. That's Jared cone. He's the CEO of jigsaw. Google ideas incubate he also served in the State Department as an advisor to Condoleeza Rice and later Hillary Clinton. He's now out with his fourth book accidental presence and Jared's still a few years away from turning forty. Anyway, I got over all that. And we spoke about how history can be changed by heartbeat and about Jarrett's time in the State Department where an unusual approach to unrest in Iran landed him at twenty seven in the New York Times that's coming up. Stay tuned. The New Yorker is considered by many to be the most influential magazine in America. The New Yorker covers a full range of topics politics, News, International affairs, climate change, the arts food humor and more of online and in print the New Yorker covers subjects many readers may not have previously put much thought into like Lyme disease. The world's diminishing supply of sand and hunting down heirloom beans. The magazine has a stellar cast of writers, including contributors like Masha Gessen John Cassidy James beard, award winning food writer, Helen Rosner and Ronan Farrow who wrote blockbusters stories and Harvey Weinstein and less moon vs. Ronin was my guest last year on stay tuned. Like, so many of the New Yorkers writers Ronin gets to the heart of his story. Now, you our listeners can save fifty percent and get twelve weeks of the New Yorker for just six dollars. When you go to New Yorker dot com slash Preet and enter Preet, you'll also get an exclusive tote as well as unlimited access to the New Yorkers apps online archives. Crossword puzzles and New Yorker dot com with ten to fifteen exclusive site only stories every day, that's New Yorker dot com slash Preet and enter pred-. So there are a lot of questions rolling in. Because there's been a bit of news. We're taping. This on Wednesday may first around two thirty pm, and we're in the midst of Bill bar, the attorney general testifying before the Senate Judiciary committee. I watched much all of it up until this point. But now, I gotta go into the studio to talk about some of the issues that have arisen on the eve of the hearing, the big news was an article in the Washington Post, which was a fairly significant scoop reporting that three days after Bill bar put out his four page letter about the mullahs report on March twenty fourth by Muller and his team took some issue with the characterizations of the Miller report that a lot of us have been wondering about and to the extent there was a mystery surrounding what Bob Muller thought about the four-page bar letter. We now know what he thought and as of this morning we actually had the letter itself which was released by the Justice department. Let's just go right to Bob mother's letter, which is fairly extraordinary. And by the way, this letter. Dated March twenty seventh three days after Bill bars letter makes clear that this was not the only letter sent this was the second letter the March twenty seven letter begins by describing how Bob Muller previously sent a letter dated March twenty fifth. That's just one day the Monday after the special counsel report was delivered to the G. What did that? I let her have it enclosed the introduction and executive summary for each volume of the special counsel report marked with reductions. So Bob Muller was essentially saying, you know, I see your summary though, you won't call it one Bill bar, and I raise you are summaries. And then when those things we're not released by Muller fired off another letter. And now a couple of things before I even read what the characterization is by Bob Muller. It is not a usual thing for this kind of communication to take place in writing obviously, a motor wanted to create a record. This letter refers to a meeting that they had on March fifth. And obviously by Miller didn't think that meeting was sufficient in wanted for posterity the record to reflect a. Clear objection to Bill bars letter. And a preference. I decided preference a strong preference. And in fact, a written preference for having the special counsel's own summaries in whatever redacted form necessary put out to the public. So they would have a fair understanding and view of what the conclusions were even while it might take some time for reductions of grand jury material classified information to take place over the course of some weeks. And here's a Bob Muller said in his March twenty seven th letter the summary letter the department sent to congress released to the public late in the afternoon of March, twenty four note Muller calls Bill bars letter a summary. We'll come back to that. 'cause I think that's important. But he says that's summary letter did not fully capture the context nature and substance of this offices work and conclusions. We communicated that concerns the department on the morning of March twenty five and then the letter goes on to say there is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. And he goes on to say, this is pretty. Strong language for person like Bob Muller, who's a fairly measured person this threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the department appointed the special counsel to assure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigations. And Bob Muller goes on to note in this letter that with these summaries that have already been prepared and do Justice to the report writ large that it need not be delayed. And so the public could get a full and better accounting perspective on what the report says in what the investigation undertook and what its conclusions were. So it's a little bit mind boggling, the Bill bars number told us that these letters came in never really suggested publicly in any way at all that Bob Muller and his team were dissatisfied with his four-page letter other than to say they were given a chance to review the Bill bar letter on March twenty four th and then declined and now you understand a little bit. Why they did why should they they had their own summaries that were prepared based on their deep knowledge of the investigation. And prepared in a way that they could be released publicly immediately. So it's an odd thing for Bill. Bart also clears up another semantic mystery. That's interesting to at least me and had is this insistence that Bill bar over and over and over again would fight about the word summary. It's not a summer. He said it's four pages. It's not a summary. What is it? It's a statement of principle conclusions. And I think he even uses in his own letter. That's not a summary. The word summarized in it seems to me if you use common English, you have a large document that in this case is the mother report afforded in forty eight pages. And then you have a smaller document that attempts to convey, some of what's in the larger document. I think most people would call that a summary, but he over and over and over again over the last number of weeks has objected to the use of summary. He's actually quibble with senators. He did today multiple times when I was watching the hearing. He keeps saying it was not a summary. It is not a summary like Arnold Schwarzenegger in kindergarten cop. It's not a summary for those of you don't know that movie should go on. So why would that be we'll have? Occurs to me that one reason is he wants to distinguish what he presented to congress in the public Bill Barr from what Bob mother wanted to present to the public, which he called summaries. So it seems to me that in some sort of semantic magic act that he wanted to perpetrate. He says look I'm just giving the top line principal conclusions. I was not interested Bill Barr says in the public seeing of summary. They should have the whole document at some point when it's ready to be given to the public. And therefore he rejected the Bob Muller summaries because he's not in the business of providing summaries. And by the way, his own thing was not a summary. Does that make sense to you doesn't make sense to me? But maybe make sense to someone who is I think going out of his way as we saw in the hearing in round after round up to around in over the last number of weeks someone who does really appear to be acting more like the defense lawyer for the president. And also a spin doctor for the president rather than a somewhat independent lawyer for the American people, which is what the attorney general is supposed to be. So it's onto to me about this. And I guess the significance of this is that there is now more evidence in favor of the criticism. And the conclusion that Bill bar that first weekend after the report was delivered to him was acting in a way as a press agent for the president the Bill bar wanted to put out on behalf of the president. Sure, the best face of the Muller report, leaving aside certain things that might make the president look particularly bad, especially those findings in volume two that had no interest in the special counsel's own summaries. Getting out leading as I've said before on the program. The imprint on the American people of exoneration and sort of nothing to see here time to move on. When s you've heard being discussed, and if you had a chance to read some of the report yourself, there is episode after episode after episode of conduct that I think in the attraction section makes out a crime, and whether or not you think it makes it a crime certainly makes out abuse of power and bad conduct that you don't want a sitting president to be engaged and nothing to be proud of is. I think a better phrase the nothing to see here from what I saw the hearings before coming into tape. There are other examples of Bill bar, basically, taking a spin approach to some of the more incriminating things that are mentioned in the report is specially in the obstruction section and the particular incident that's been getting a lot of attention, both generally. And in the hearing. This incident that's described at some length for President Trump calls done Mcgann and says Muller has conflicts, and he has to go and tells Mcgann that he must tell rod Rosenstein this, and that mother has to go, and there's this back and forth. It's kind of extraordinary over the meaning of the word he has to go, and what exactly was in the mind of Donald Trump whereby Bill bar. Just like we've Giuliani has been doing on television is left to say. Well, the word firing wasn't used the present say fire. And so to the extent to the president. Then also tells down Mcgann to create some document that makes clear that he wasn't trying to fire Bob Muller when the times reported, otherwise the slender read, they have to stand on is that the word firing was never used even though in the mind of Don Mcgann, who's a pretty smart guy who decided to work for the president who one would believe is a fairly careful lawyer understood the import of what Donald Trump was. Telling him so much. So that he declined to carry out the instruction. He declined to do what he was told to do. He packed up his things and was heard to utter things like I'm not going to be involved in another Saturday night massacre to the extent, Donald Trump is Bill bar would have you believe was just sort of doing some innocent musing based on his wealth of knowledge about conflicts law and nothing to see here nothing. So significant that's belied by the actual reaction and actions of Don Mcgann, but you see a lot of bobbing and weaving going on on the part of the attorney general in the face of what looks like pretty clear evidence that the president wanted by Muller gun. There's another occasion during the hearings where Bill bars taken to task for suggesting that the president fully cooperated with the investigation, which again strange predominantly given all sorts of things that are in the report, including that, the president refused to give sworn testimony with respect to the obstruction and only gave written testimony with respect to the conspiracy aspect of the investigation that on multiple occasions. He tried to get rid of Muller whether use the word fire or not. And by the way, there is evidence that Chris Christie understood that the president was trying to fire by mother and use the word firing on top of which obviously there are many occasions where the president wanted Jeff Sessions to recuse himself fraught purpose to protect the president. And forget about this at the general bleeding by the president over and over again about the thirteen or seventeen angry Democrats and the constant attacks on the integrity and standing incompetence above Muller personally, and on the part of his advocates that doesn't sound like cooperation and yet there you. The attorney general for United States of America standing by his representation that there was full cooperation strains credulity. Here's another example that I thought was kind of enlightening about what's going on in Bill bars head you'll recall that if you weeks ago, he's sort of throughout the casual accusation without any evidence in conceded that there was no evidence for it. But he wants to take a look at it that people in the intelligence community or at the FBI were quote, unquote spying on the president's campaign on Donald Trump's campaign that immediately had a huge effect on the public's mind because the president has been using that phrase, which is not the way people talk about authorized surveillance in connection with law enforcement or intelligence gathering operations. And so I think ordinary people who understand the toxic rhetoric that the president has been using. And some of his supporters have been using about quote, unquote, spine people have been a little bit taken aback that the attorney general would sort of in what I've been calling a non virtuous toxic feedback loop. Taking some of the terms that the president uses laundering them through the office of the attorney general and then using them himself. But then he says in the hearing today in a back and forth that I thought was fairly extraordinary C. Look look spying is a perfectly good word in the English language. I don't consider it a pejorative. It's a word that she is. He said I started my career in the CIA inspiring. It's just a word we use. I don't know why anybody would suggest that has some bad connotation knowing full well that the president is allies use it as a bar to suggest significant insidious bad nefarious conduct on the part of people who they have claimed. Using other words that I guess are perfectly. Good English words coup and treason, and here, you have the attorney general saying nothing to see here. I just use the word spying because it's a good English word again, strains credulity, and it happened again. And again, and again, even as I've been taping. This I got a report that in exchange with Senator Kamala Harris, the attorney general Bill. Bar said to her I'm trying to grapple with the word suggest as if suggest is, you know, electrically ambiguous term that we have to quarrel over, but I'm trying to grapple with the word suggest. I mean, there have been discussions of of matters out there that they have not asked me to open investigation. Perhaps they've suggested I don't know. I wouldn't say suggested I dunno inferred. You don't okay again? And again, and again, it's kind of interesting how many times during the course of these hearings and over the course of the last few weeks, whether it's the word summary or the word collusion or the word findings or the word firing or the word cooperating where the word spying or the word suggest depending on the nature of the question in what the spirit of it is in what the upshot of what they're trying to get at is Bill bar. The sitting attorney general has either a common sense of Hugh of the term or a completely bazaar view of the term. And he's parsing even while he bobs and weaves it's not the kind of performance and still a lot of confidence that he's playing it straight. That's just my initial thought from listening to several hours of the hearing. Members of cafe insider can hear more of my thoughts about this in a special. Stay tuned bonus to join go to cafe dot com slash insider. That's cafe dot com slash insider. My guest this week is Jared Cohen. He's a former diplomat a CEO and the author of four books, including most recently, accidental presidents eight men who changed America. It's a fascinating look at a collection of leaders who ascended to the highest office in the land, even though they were not selected by the voters for by their party. We talked about how the number two spot can do more than compromise or balance a campaign ticket. It can turn out to be very consequential. Jared also told me what Theodore Roosevelt kept in his dorm room. And he listened to the end of the interview you'll find out what life size figure Jared has in his office. That's coming up. Stay tuned. How much time do you think attorney spend managing their legal practices clients. And cases hint a lot of time. Now, there's a better way with Cleo, the secure cloud based legal software that makes managing and growing. Your firm easier a few years back. I spoke at Cleo's cloud conference and talked about how the legal profession is one of the most mobile professions. You can be in Cleo automates, the tedious tasks that take valuable time generating bills, maintaining endless documents and keeping cases organized the mobile app lets you access your files from wherever you are with an easy to use interface. That makes you more productive and helps you get paid faster. Cleo allows you to focus on the things that actually matter. No wonder it is trusted by over one hundred fifty thousand legal professionals and approved by sixty six bar associations and law societies worldwide. Take your law firm to the next level with Cleo to get exclusive savings. Go to Cleo dot com slash Prete and start a free trial. No credit card required. C L I O dot com slash Preet. That's Cleo dot com slash Prete. Jared cohen. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. I've been a long slog. It's it's a very long and good and interesting and excellent. I have just finished writing a book as you may know, this is your fourth book my fourth. Yes. And you're younger than I am. So I hate you just a little bit. That's very nice of you is it seems like a benevolent hatred. So the the book is entitled accidental presidents eight men who changed America. And it's about the ascension to the presidency by vice presidents when the first person that ticket passed away, it appears to be very meticulously researched. So I appreciate that. And it's a it's a work of storytelling and also scholarship. I believe you have one hundred eight pages of notes. Look, it's another week here at stay tuned Thirty-seven-year-old Rhodes scholar. That's what we do around here. We recently had people to judge on. Oh, I love to. So we gotta find some more Thirty-seven-year-old Rhodes scholars to keep the streak up. It's like a row. So it might be the only two that I'm aware. We miss you. Very simple question. What do you mean when you say accidental president? So what I was really captivated. By is the eight times in history that a president dies in office. In history is changed by the beat of a heart. So I often get asked why didn't you include the Nixon to Ford transition, and it's because that was a manmade crisis. There's something about the unexpected transition. That thrust somebody who wasn't elected and wasn't the voter's choice into the helm of power. Oftentimes, by the way, at some of the most important inflection points in the country's history. So it's that suddenness and that unexpected aspect of it that I was most interested in what's the biggest challenge? Generally. Do you have different stories and gonna ask you about two or three of them in particular that I'm sort of interested in in modern times? But what's the biggest challenge for someone stepping into the shoes of the person who's duly elected president United States, especially if it was an? Accidental thing. Well in the eight times that it's happened. The biggest challenges in all cases, they were completely ostracized from the administration. So if you look at Harry Truman he'd only met FDR twice in his eighty two days. He didn't get a single intelligence briefing didn't meet a single foreign leader wasn't briefed on the Manhattan project had never stepped into the map room where the war was being planned Millard. Fillmore was you know, bitter that he'd been cut off from patronage opportunities. So when he ascends to the presidency. He sacks the entire cabinet immediately after taking the oath of office. So the biggest challenge is they don't know what the hell's going on I interviewed Kissinger for the book and his explanation for why vice presidents are kept at a distance is the president doesn't want somebody around that they can't fire and the president doesn't want somebody around who's greatest source of joy would be if they drop dead, right? What's the old phrase? I think there's some controversy about whether somebody said that the vice presidency isn't worth a bucket of well the quotas. John Nance garner. Who was FDR's? I spice president said that the vice presidency isn't worth a warm bucket of piss, but people have revised it to be spit spit. Right. This is a puck. So you can say piss, okay. I wasn't sure about that the podcast. You can save us. We do a children's version in which will hurt. Because it's important for people to learn history children to learn history. But historically, nobody nobody wanted the vice presidency. So who the person who became the vice president it was a combination of somebody who needed to be punished and somebody who was available, but isn't that odd given as you as you describe during the first one hundred seventy or so years, maybe getting the number wrong, the accidental presidency was something happen every ten to twenty years. So it's something that was completely foreseeable. And yet people didn't want the vice presidency. Even though there was a decent chance. If you were kind of Macab that you would ascend to the presidency. Putting aside the likelihood that you could be the nominee party standard bearer after the president served out his terms of all the accidental presidents the only one who seems to have done. The math was LBJ who reason that there was a more than twenty percent chance that if he left the most powerful seat in the Senate he could end up as president. But if you look at the eight times, I mean, the framers of the constitution, they didn't think much of the vice presidency. They they added as an afterthought as an electoral mechanism when I find more. Interesting is the fact that you did have this kind of every ten to twenty year occurrence, not to mention by the way, the nineteen close calls where somebody will almost died in office. So this kept happening. And yet, we basically winged it. So it's interesting when we talk about constitutional crises today, and and so forth. I mean, this to me is one of the most sustained constitutional vulnerabilities that we've had in our history. What makes this accession work in the cases where it has worked in gone. Well, now withstanding what you've already said that, you know, most of the time the vice president is on the outs has not been briefed on very important issues in particular the case of Harry Truman, how did the successful accidental presence make it work. Well, so it's a combination of two things the secret sauce in the thing that the ascending accidental president has control over is the people around them. So you get some who on one end of the spectrum decided to keep all of the predecessors advisors. So that they didn't seem like they were coming in and changing things too much. And then you had some that went on the other extreme and got rid of everybody the ones that iterative on it and the ones that sort of. Played musical chairs in a way that fit the administration that they wanted to shape or the ones that were most successful, but context mattered a lot. So have you look again at Harry Truman versus Lyndon Johnson by all accounts Truman never should have been successful. If you look at what herited, you know, some of his lack of engagement and lack of being integrated into the administration, but he inherited a war where Hitler is still fighting from a bunker the battle of Okinawa was raging in the Asian Pacific. You had a massive bureaucratic battle between the army and navy Stalin was reneging on every single promise from Yalta, and he had to make a major decision about invading Japan and potentially losing a million men or dropping the most devastating weapon in the history of the world. So if you look at his advisers around him detaches in George Marshall, they had nothing in common with Truman Truman was sort of provincial, shucks politician from Missouri. These men were sort of elite Ivy league intellectuals, but the fate of the world rested on whether Harry Truman was successful. So you contrast that with LBJ who also had nothing in common with Bob MAC? Namara McGeorge Bundy, the elite Kennedy advisers, the fate of the world did not rest on what happened in Vietnam just Linden Johnson's reputation and his presidency. So what's the best strategy for the ascending vice president to maintain some continuity with the prior administration and consistent with the grief that the public is generally feeling or to set your own course, or some combination of the two. So if you look at the men who ascend to the presidency, they're typically either foreign policy people or domestic policy people if a president who ascends to the highest office in the land, the first thing they have to figure out which one are they and then they have to look at the hand that they've been dealt and figure out if that's the right group for them to push an agenda based on their core competence. But then they have to look at the predecessor if they're a domestic president, and they get a foreign policy team of advisers that are telling them one thing and their instincts. Tell them another. They have to demonstrate a level of courage to shake it up. If necessary let's talk about some of the particular examples, and we'll go out of chronological order, so Johnson. So the presidency. It's well known that Johnson and John Kennedy and also Bobby Kennedy. They didn't get along. So well, there was a feeling of envy jealousy, ultra right? Well, it also RFK never forgave Johnson for making a comment about JFK's health during the campaign. He just never forgave him. Right. So now, he becomes a president. There's that famous photograph of him being sworn in on Air Force One in the air. The nation's grieving everyone is upset people. Don't even know the nature of the assassination. And then you have you have another assassination that occurs with respect to Jack ruby three days later. How did Johnson turned that around to his advantage? Well Johnson was determined to be a great domestic president. And unlike the other accident or presidents with the exception of teddy Roosevelt he had dreamed and fantasized about being president, and you know, had gotten in the race earlier in nineteen sixty he may have found himself more competitive, but he was certainly qualified to be president needed. Certainly thought about it for Johnson. It was he looked at his situation. He was struck by two things. One a deep concern that civil rights was going to collapse on his watch. You had the bombing in Birmingham. You had the Selma Montgomery marches. I mean, he was terrified the Vietnam was going to collapse on his watch in both cases. He was determined to make sure that he navigated a path forward on civil rights. He knew what to do. He understood the rules of the Senate. He knew how to get that done on Vietnam. He was completely flailing. And he essentially outsourced it to men he inherited from the Kennedy administration. What he did was Johnson was deeply cognizant of how loved Kennedy was and he had this mixture of hatred and admiration for the elite intellectuals around Kennedy who he called the Harvard's really he worked. He worked the phones. And he got on with them and said, I need you. You know, this this this is about JFK's legacy, not my legacy, and he convinced he didn't really mean that of course, he didn't he was so tactical, and I guess also in some regards strategic. He was capable of being able to humble himself for the purposes of his own legacy later. Oh, absolutely. I mean Johnson was a was a political craftsman. He understood hand gestures and the color of ties in the patterns of ties. He just wasn't a great judge of character. Right. Do you think that if Jack Kennedy had not been shot a lot of people have opined on this? I want to know what you think based on what you wrote in the book, whether or not those civil rights advances would have been possible. I do not believe you would have had the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four had Kennedy survived. If you look at RFK's turnaround on civil rights. It's it's remarkable. But it doesn't happen in nineteen sixty four the Kennedys were prepared to pay lip service to civil rights. But if you look at their reaction to the bombing in Birmingham, they weren't really ready and willing to back it up in a way that could potentially risk the election. So I just don't believe they would have made the gamble in the lead up to the nineteen sixty four election, whereas LBJ felt differently. LBJ felt like if he could get civil rights. Legislation done in nineteen sixty four. He could prove that he could do it that would be his pass to winning the presidency in his own, right? And every one of these accidental presidents the first thing that they get captivated by when they ascend to the presidency is this notion that they're an accident and that they don't belong there. And everything that they do is in some form guided by wanting to win election in their own, right? So they're no longer an accident. Also LBJ, you know, had to wind at his back and beat very Goldwater decisively in nineteen sixty four forty nine states. Did that help him feel that he was no longer Nextel president? Oh, absolutely. I mean in his right after achieving victory. One of the things he said is I've been given a mandate. Now, let's basically get on with it. If you look at the comments of the last four accidental presidents teddy Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman and LBJ. There are the only four who ended up winning election in their own right and their behavior in their actions in the second term is always noticeably. Different than the first term. They become more confident more confident they're less deferential to the legacy of their predecessor. Although teddy Roosevelt, basically evaporated legacy of his predecessor at the moment. He took the oath of office did LBJ make a better transition because he was a very accomplished Senator in the first place. Unlike some of these others or did not matter I think LBJ was able to be more productive out of the gate than some of these others because he understood the legislature. So it's hard to look LBJ's track record and say he wasn't anything but legislatively productive, but he was also a foreign policy novice. So the contrast of LBJ is a great domestic president in a horrific foreign policy president, I think in a lot of respects illustrates what happens when somebody is thrust into the job and they have expertise in one area, but lack it in another right? So teddy Roosevelt became president. At what age forty two remains true that he's the youngest president history. Yes, not the youngest elected. But the youngest president has to become. President history. How does he compare to the others? Teddy Roosevelt is my favorite of all the accent presidents because if he was alive in today's context, you would view him as a bloodthirsty lunatic, then basically every few blocks away, and he would have lived a few blocks away. The man was crazy by all accounts and his his father who he admired and loved had paid a substitute to fight for him in the civil war and ever since teddy Roosevelt learned about that as a child he basically spent his entire life wanting to vindicate his father's decision and the poor guy. Just never got a war for most of his life. And then he gets appointed as assistant secretary of navy under McKinley and his first much to mckinlay's resistance. But the story of teddy Roosevelt's rise is a story of party bosses in New York just trying to get rid of him. Right. And there's an amazing story with teddy Roosevelt where the secretary of the navy literally takes six hours off one day to go get the equivalent of a spot treatment and makes teddy Roosevelt promise not to take the country to war effectively gives what one biographer. Bribes as an orgy of orders and mobilizes the country in all kinds of ways that put the six hour in the six zero. And then once the country goes to war with Spain and the Philippines in Cuba. He immediately seeks combat. So when you read the medal of honor nominations for teddy Roosevelt, most of which he engineered for himself about his charging up San Juan hill and Cuba. They don't read like somebody who has been incredibly heroin, even though the outcome was they read like somebody who was in kind of a psychotic trance marching towards like shooting. And he was so intoxicated by the idea of war that he forgot to tell his men. It was time to charge the hill. So you initially charges it, basically alone, and then has to go back and give the order. So when teddy Roosevelt a sense of the presidency upon McKinley assassination. He can almost hardly contain his enthusiasm for the opportunity to finally be in this role. And he a great quote where he basically says you can mourn this, but it's better not to be morbid about it. I mean, you Roseville, I think was even younger than you. When he wrote his first book. Yeah. He runs near the war. Right. You wrote the definitive history of the navy in the war eighteen twelve and he was like nine I was a little older than nine. I think he was seventeen or eighteen very young. He was he was either in his late teens early twenties. Right. Love to have him on the imagine having been his dorm mate. The guy literally would bring a combination of live and dead animals, and he turned his college dormitory into a taxidermy studio. Well, he was great naturalist and also sportsmen and one hundred in fact, we're Roosevelt used to live is now a museum a few blocks away here in lower Manhattan. And I remember taking my daughter to the museum some years ago to show her the most impressive thing that you would see perhaps a museum to teddy Roosevelt. And that is the bullet hole in the shirt that he was wearing when he was giving a speech outdoors was shot essentially in the heart and continue to speak, but there's so much to that story. So so because Roosevelt was. Over boasts. He had a forty page speech. So the bones. I love you. And I love his podcast someone shot me right now, we would have to take a rain check on this. Well, that was not his philosophy. So the bullet it's typical Roosevelt's in. Theatrics. He gets shot while running as a bull moose in nineteen twelve and the bullet penetrates the speech hits a glasses case, it does end up penetrating his skin. So he opens his shirt in front of everybody examines the wound declares that. He's an expert taxidermist, which was true. And that he could probably survive long enough to give the speech. So he delivers the speech, and then goes to the hospital. But what's interesting is? That's the story that people often cite about teddy Roosevelt an accidental president nearly being killed, but he wasn't in office when that happened, but a year after teddy Roosevelt ascended to the presidency so one year into being president. He is in pittsfield and trolley crashes into his carriage and flings him about thirty feet. He lands face down breaks, his glasses ends up with a terrible wound. His drivers. Killed. His bodyguard is killed by the first secret service Asian ever killed in the line of duty. And he eventually has helped to his feet. He goes up to the to the trolley driver flashes. His epoch teeth which were epoch and basically gets in the guy's face. I mean, he was he was he was a tough guy. It was a tough guy. But he ended up in a wheelchair for for six weeks was tell you. It was really great president. I think teddy Roosevelt was an extraordinary man who was a great president in terms of ushering in an era of progressiveness and trust busting at a time where the country wasn't quite ready for it. But I think we should also consider ourselves lucky that teddy Roosevelt as commander in chief. Did not preside over a war because what would have happened. I think the unthinkable could have happened unthinkable back. Then back we didn't have the big weapon than we did not have the big weapon. But I think that the teddy Roosevelt was certainly prone to to certain types of impulsive foreign policy. Behaviour? I see, you know, it's interesting because we had a couple of historians on the show. And after the show, I was asked my teddy Roosevelt. Always been impressed by him in part because of what he did with public corruption in New York, and hated it with a passion, whereas police Commissioner police Commissioner at the age of I don't know like nineteen heated everything really young that guy. It is very annoying. Yeah. You should really sit this one out of working on it look for thirty seven. And and it's interesting impressive person. I mean, in some ways, maybe the most impressive person who was in the office of the presidency in the twentieth century who would be more impressive than he as a person in terms of intellect and ability and energy. And all that. Oh, I mean, I think there's nobody who comes even close to is impressive. You know, the the the sheer volume and quality of the books that he wrote he was a prolific writer. He was a prolific talker. He was an expert zoologist taxidermist, probably not an orthodontist, but other deaths, and it was an incredible sportsman, but he was hyper-active and the way to think about teddy Roosevelt is he was never supposed to survive. He was a very sick child and he suffered from mental depression. So. He spent his entire life, basically trying to outpace his depression, and it led to an almost hyperactivity and sort of anxious way of living. So he used to just invite people to the White House. They'd strapped pillows for themselves. And they would just literally like beat the crap out of show. We do that here. Also mean, it's not fit for modern times Thursdays. We do that with the pill. Right guys. We do the pillow thing on Thursdays. Let's talk about Harry Truman, which in some ways. I find the most fascinating. So he's a guy who's the vice president, and it's not tranquil times as you've already described. We were at war. The war had not been one. It was going fairly well at that moment right for the United States and for the allies. And you would think he would have prepared. You would think he would have been good on the backup planning. And yet. He was not how responsible was that? So it's interesting people often times fault FDR for knowing that he was going to die and not doing more to read Truman. But Truman deserves a fair amount of that culpability is well everybody knew that FDR was a dying man when he was elected in nineteen forty four. Which is precisely the reason the party bosses did not want Henry Wallace on the ticket Truman, basically ends up on the ticket. So the Henry Wallace doesn't end up as president one day. So everybody knew it. So everyone knows we're still at war. And we don't know what the peace if there's going to be a piece is going to look like. And there's going to be a lot of hard work in recovery from the war. Even the war is not even over yet and Roosevelt is dying. And he's in his fourth term. And was Truman the right pick. I think Truman was a grossly irresponsible pick that ended up working out the right way. And I think that it's easy to look at how well things played out in the war in the postwar order and forget how incredibly negligent this is. And I think this is a lot of respects the story of the accidental presidents, which is we basically winged it and got lucky, and I think Truman is the ultimate example of how lucky we get. Now. I think we owe a lot of credit to dean actress in George Marshall for helping him be successful. But we also Truman some credit for listening to them. They said don't worry about Asia. Leave that to MacArthur, focus, all your attention on Europe. But what's interesting about Truman about three weeks into his vice presidency? He gets a phone call saying the president is dead. And I it's kind of a false alarm. It turned out one of his advisors. Paul Watson had died not the president. But Truman knew what it was like in that moment to learn that the president was dead to imagine himself as president. And when you read his. His letters and his memoirs it seems to have had zero impact on him. And he basically went back to socializing. So how do you explain that? Because FDR refused to admit that he was dying. It was taboo, for anybody to talk about the fact that FDR was dying. Yes, sure. Taboo to talk about it. But you know, there is this thing called talking behind people's backs. Yeah. He could have done that it does not appear that there was a lot of that. As I could. It's not polite. But of course, I don't either people do that. Yeah. I mean to me it's one of the great sort of psychological mysteries that despite what everybody knew about FDR, the only time it was really apparent that. Anyone took an action based on the fact that he was dying was in the nineteen forty four convention when it appeared that Henry Wallace was going to get the the renomination as by president. It's remarkable that among other things it's one thing not to be read into certain elements of foreign policy in certain more plans, but the United States had the bomb. And Harry Truman knew nothing about it. Until when thirty minutes after he took the oath of office and by not not a crazy meeting. Right. Like, okay. I'm the president. Oh, hey, we have something to tell. What's interesting is it actually took a couple of meetings? So when secretary Stimson initially does the briefing for Truman on the Manhattan project. He's kind of vague about it and Truman remember something along these lines from when he was in the Senate and so forth. But it takes like somebody should've sat him down and said Mr President we have this incredibly destructive weapon. Here's how it works. Here's what it can do. There's a decent chance that you're going to have to decide whether or not to use it against Japan. And it took a couple of meetings to get to that point. But Truman literally spends his first couple of days in office studying maps and figuring out what the heck is going on in the war. Nobody's even giving him a readout on y'all to his only readout on y'all which was the best sort of indication of the closest thing. That stolen in FDR had to a plan. Truman's read out was the same readout that the joint session of congress when FDR delivered his his message explaining what happened at Yalta. Nobody bothered to clued the guy in can can you remind folks what happened in Yalta? So y'all to was the the gathering of the big three Stalin Churchill and FDR in which and it was at that meeting that they secured the Soviet Union's entry into the war to open up an eastern front against Nazi Germany. You know? But there are a lot of other details beyond that. I mean, that's sort of the most famous, but that's where they sort of talked about Poland, and they talked about Greece, and they talked about essentially a lot of what was going to happen with your up even got into China and so forth. I find that just remarkable. Let me ask you some general questions in about how people today should think about the vice presidency. It's an article faith people are running for president in get their party's nomination. Think that their choice of ice president will somehow help them balance out the ticket young old male female, you know, southern northern and it appears also to be an article faith on the part of political scientists that almost never makes a difference. As writing this book and doing this research and being immersed in the subject change your view on how people should think about who to vote for in general election based on who they selected as vice president. It's absolutely changed. My view. I also if you look recently as the selection of Sarah Palin, it also has been asked about it does not appear that we've learned anything, and I think it can be. It's a mistake to look at the fact that the last several vice presidents by all accounts have been integrated into the administration with their own national security apparatus and so forth, and that's going back to I'm sorry, L gore. Was that way? So I think you basically have gore Cheney Biden and Pence by all accounts are part of the administration, but that's not mandated by law. That's just because the vice president has a has a decent relationship with the president. Obey. Maybe not in the in the case of gore. But my view is first of all historically has not been the case that the party's nominee chooses their vice president, historically, it's been chosen by delegates at convention representing the party. I I like that approach much better. Because there's at least some degree of accountability on the ticket. The the nominee may be the leader of the party. But the nominee is not the dictator of the parties. So a simple way to think about this. You look at the current field today where you have you know, somewhere between fifty and sixty candidates running for president and sixty thousand then you're off. Stadiums worth and candidates running for president on the democratic side. Why not create a new party rule or a new party norm? That says in order to be eligible for that second spot on the ticket you need to I be a candidate for president yourself. So we can all see what it looks like when you interview for the job. And then you could imagine anointing the sort of super super delegate type people to separately. Choose the the vice presidential nominee. Does it have any hope of happening? I think it seems pretty unlikely because the nominee is in effect the party boss, but I still think it'd be a worthwhile idea. I think the problem you have with the vice presidential selection is typically a vice president is chosen to win a state balance the ticket appease constituency as you pointed out, historically, there's no evidence that it does any of those things the advice that I would give in the current structure to somebody just based on what works, and what doesn't work is. You're incentivized as the party's nominee to choose somebody. Who is sufficiently boring that they won't upstage you, but not so boring and problematic that they're going to embarrass you. So you basically want a sort of JV version of yourself, and my problem with that is I don't want the JV version of the party's nominee potentially one heartbeat away from the presidency, especially when we're in the longest period of time in history without a president dying in office. And we have had this happen. Eight times, and we have had nineteen close calls. Do you have a pick for most prepared vice president who never became an accidental vice president in recent times. Oh, that's a good question. So the most prepared vice-president who never became an be someone who agree with you. And I have sort of in my mind, I'm thinking about an interview with Adam McKay, and he directed this movie. Vice about Dick Cheney who some people thought was essentially the president. I mean, all the ones who are most prepared ended up the ones who are most experienced ended up ascending to the to the president. I mean, I think the fact that I'm having a hard time thinking of one shows, you how unremarkable the list of vice presidents in history of been literally just reciting them in my head and all the ones that are worth acknowledging ended up becoming giving president themselves, right, John Adams, Thomas, Jefferson, etc. You think that as we approach twenty twenty there at least three people who'll be in their seventies and some late in their seventies. If they were to be elected Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren in Donald Trump himself, how important factors should that. Be for voters. I think it should be a very important factor. I mean, the fact that it's been so long since we've lost a president in office means that most of the people alive. Don't remember what it was like and the ones that do remember it? Remember it in the context of an assassination. The number of people who are alive who remember FDR dying in office is. Mean you have to talk to like Henry Kissinger, and people, you know, of that generation to really understand what what that felt like so as a country sort of lost our frame of reference for the fact that this can happen. And statistically it happened. It's happened a lot you take away this lengthy period where it hasn't happened. And then you look at the close calls, right? You afford in this time where we've lost president Gerald Ford was shot at twice once the gun malfunction and the second time a secret service agent got his finger between the trigger and the assassins finger. Reagan was in fact, shot early. There was a grenade thrown at George W Bush, which is a much closer call than people realize. So I get nervous that we forget that this can happen. And we take for granted the fact that this can happen in the way that manifest itself is we're totally comfortable with the idea of people in their late seventies running for president of the United States. And we still don't seem to give hoot about who. They're running mate running mate is. But I think if we have such old. People in the mix who are running for president or our president. We should have a serious conversation. We should basically have the conversation that nobody had in nineteen forty four. And what's the conversation about the fact that the unthinkable could happen? And you look at this moment, you think about how politically incorrect that sounds and so forth. Nobody wants to talk about the president dying in office. It's very unpleasant thought we hope that never happens for guardless of what ones politics are. But when you're talking about people in their late seventies, you know, running for office in campaigns that are even more active with each successive campaign cycle doing the job in ways that are only getting busier and more taxing on the body. It's something that we have to have a serious conversation about you you, and I are having. But we're two people. Do we scale there were millions of people who are going to listen to this multiple millions ten tens of millions of people want to ask you, do you consider yourself to be an historian. I consider myself to be an amateur historian in the sense. That I could not have written this book had serious historians. The Doris Kearns Goodwin's of the world the David McCullough world had they not literally spent decades writing some of these extraordinary books that form a foundation of our history, and they did so in in an era that's pre internet. I mean, I have the luxury of all the periodical or online all the all the archives are online. It's still fun to go into the library of congress and so forth. You got to go watch them more veep. Why I'm going to say I'm going to say the in the paperback paperback, I want to talk about some other things you've done, and then we'll talk about what you're doing. Now, some interesting what you're doing now, which is fascinating and really relevant to the current day with respect to technology, and how it can do good things can do bad things. But I wanna talk about a very young Jared Cohen in his twenties who, you know, some people that go for spring break in vacation to the Caribbean. They go to Fort Lauderdale use spent a bunch of your youth in places like Lebanon, and Iran the hell rethinking. So when I was in undergraduate at Stanford, I spent a lot of time. Travelling to conflict zones in sub Saharan Africa. And I had a professor of mine asked me if I'd ever done probability and statistics, and he explained to me that had I taken a serious Tissot class. I would have realized that I was recklessly putting my life in danger. So when I went to grad school, I said, you know, what I'm going to take a break from traveling to conflict zones in sub Saharan Africa. And I'm gonna go to Iran because I just think it's you need a break you need a break lighter. Yeah. So a stable, you know, totalitarian state tell folks what you did in Reno to hang it in your hotel. What did you do run? Well, I went to Iran to interview opposition leaders, and reformers and activists, and I ended up getting in some trouble pretty early on while I was there, and I was told to keep a lower profile. So I just started you who told you to keep a lower the CG's who are sort of part of the security apparatus, and they would sort of bring you into these offices. And I'll never forget this guy, Mr. solid. He has multiple buttons on his shirt undone, and he would come in be really nice leave comeback, and then just start yell. Me and playing mind games on me. It was very thin. You remember, it's interesting me. I think you remember I love the buttons on the Baltic chess vets. That's the one piece of that. You would take away your zero in on. Nice to see you wearing your looking very buttoned up. Well, thank you. And so I ended up just deciding you know, what I'm just going to try to keep a low profile. I'm going to find people my own age throughout the country. And I'm going to hang out with them. And what I realized and spending time with all these young people. This was two thousand four two thousand five is they were all using technology in ways that I had never seen before to organize to do things. They weren't allowed to do largely for social and recreational purposes and flirtation, and it became very clear to me that they without realizing it we're training in a new version of civil society activism with tools that we'd never experienced before. And that one day these tools of flirtation would become tools for political revolution. So I realized that I had actually gone Iran to study the wrong opposition. And the real opposition was sixty seven percent of at the time a country of seventy eight million people who are under the age of thirty. It's always the young people. Right. Yeah. And look Iran was the first the countries to experience an uproar. I want to talk about something else that happened with. Back to Iran. So you have these amazing jobs early in your career you worked at the State Department. Why did you got the State Department? So secretary rice was a mentor of mine at Stanford. I know actually met her so funny story, I think I I met her when I was traveling to Iran before I went, and we developed a relationship after I got back, and I think to this day. The first reason I got the initial meetings. I think she thought I was one of her students at Stanford, Robin. I'll take it a different Jarod. Yeah. Exactly. But we developed a close relationship, and when she moved over to become secretary of state, I was offered a job on on her policy planning staff, and then you stayed on I stayed on under secretary Clinton when President Obama became the president not accidental by the way. And then there's a story that I told you I want to ask you. I'm sure you've told the story before but explain to folks what happened in two thousand nine when you had occasion to call the CEO of Twitter Jack Dorsey so Jack Dorsey and I had met because. I took them on a what was called a tech delegation to Iraq, where we're bringing CEOs founders from Silicon Valley to help us think through how technology can be used as an instrument of statecraft, and some of these geopolitical hotspots and Jack had signed me up for Twitter right there at the embassy in Baghdad became an early user at least by State Department standards. And then when the green revolution started happening in June of two thousand nine we had seen a post from any Ronnie and saying that Twitter was doing scheduled maintenance and was going to be shutting down, and it was shutting down sort of the height of the protests. There weren't a lot of Iranians that we're using Twitter at the time. But the few that we're using it. We're very important for getting information out. So I just sent a note to Jack Dorsey asking if they could reschedule the maintenance so it was inconvenient for Americans from time zone perspective in more convenient for Iranians. And he said let me get back to you. And then someone give you authorization to talk to the head of Twitter. No chasing, leg your good idea. And then you're held at this time. I was twenty seven twenty-seven and you're like, hey, can you can you pause on the Twitter fix? Yeah. So he did it. He wrote back said done. I went home I felt good. And then and then I see a massive Email that has a lot of powerful people on it from Dennis McDonough, saying everyone stand down, and I still didn't really think anything of it. I went mcdonagh at the time was he was the deputy national security advisor influential Obama world, so I come to work the next day. And I realize I'm in loads and loads of trouble. And I knew I was in votes votes. Trouble because somebody called me up and said, you better pick up the New York Times, and you were on above the fold President Obama said there will be no meddling in Iran. Twenty-seven-year-old State Department official Jared Cohen had more or less at a different idea. And I said, oh my God. I'm in a lot of trouble the quote that I have read about this incident is that President Obama reportedly got upset and said who is Jared Cohen. And why haven't we fight him yet? And they're expletives in there. As well. And whether he said at her someone else said is what did you think? Did you did your family call you and say, Jared what what do you? What was it was his awkward thing? Because I was I had lots of people calling me and saying this is great, congratulations. And I had people who literally were like dangling me in front of the crocodiles. Did you get fired? I did not get fired bully for you. Because sometimes people do get and then I lived to tell another day, and I give secretary Clinton a lot of credit for this. What happened in the morning meeting is she had the paper. And apparently put it on the table with her senior staff and said, this is exactly what we should be doing. You wrote a book one of your earlier books based on the experiences, you had in Iran and elsewhere culture of jihad tells about that book, it's folks folks you by the current book, and then later bunch of jihad yes in the current book is accidental presidents. I think I've said accident, I think I've namedrop your book in conversation about thirty five times. That's your in United talk about light references to the book. I wrote an early book called children of jihad, which was my experiences. Living in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, talking to young people about how they were using technology to subvert circumvent these autocratic regimes, and I wrote that in in two thousand seven and you had ended up I think foreshadowing a lot of what came with the Arab spring so fast forward some years in you got involved based presumably on these experiences and other things in tech. But not in the way that some people think about tech. He's ought about tech in the sense of how can we use tech to make things better? You and I've had many conversations about this. And it's I think it's extraordinarily explain what you do at jigsaw. So jigsaw is a unit within alphabet, which is Google's parent company. We come to work every single day looking at the biggest challenges that are destabilizing the internet. So if you look at all the things that are giving us anxiety about our digital world. The trolling problem. The disinflation problem state sponsored cyber attacks spread of extremism general decline in civility and rise and talk city of conversation online. This is what we focus on. So when are you gonna fix that? We're working on. But our approach is we look at all of these challenges that I think are well understood today, and we ask how will they manifest themselves on a one to two year time horizon, and then we build and ship products against those projections. So a simple way to think about this is we want to build tools that help protect the twenty twenty election in the United States. So the best way we believe to protect the twenty twenty election in the United States is to look at who has an interest in digitally disrupting our election. And what are they looking? At target practice today. Which is why we spend a lot of time on places like Ukraine because you know, there's nothing that country like Russia will do to the US that they won't do to Ukraine. I and worse. So by looking at the challenges that Ukraine is dealing with today. It almost forms of crystal ball of what will deal with tomorrow is let's take some of those issues that are that are big deal one that people talking about now in you mentioned is the rise of extremism, and a particular kind of extremism, white supremacy white nationalism. Should we be concerned about that? And how do we address that on all sorts of digital platforms, including Twitter, Google YouTube etcetera? Yeah, I mean, look, I think technology is certainly has an exacerbating quality to it. So I think that if you look at the spread of extremism online. There's no doubt that in the digital realm. Technology can be used to recruit a commute for propaganda making us be used to coordinate activity. But it also means that people are more accessible. So, you know, it used to be that people were radicalized in a cave, and you had no chance of thwarting. The radicalization. Process. So my view is we need to find ways to disrupt the extremists ability to recruit online, but there's also an opportunity to counter the narrative among the young vulnerable people that are out there that are seeking out extremist ideas that all sounds sounds good. But what is what says we've a tactile concrete way that these platforms can do something about to spread of extremism? So I'll give you an example of what we've done at jigsaw with Google. Our view was online there's a sort of bottom of the recruitment funnel, meaning people who are radicalized already. And they're actively trying to take the violent nextstep, that's bad. But the good news is that's specific enough that you can really target towards it. So we worked with sort of various counter extremism experts identify about three to four thousand keywords and phrases that we believed those radical populations are searching for to try to figure out how to take the next step. We then worked with counter extremism organizations to add words display ads and. Video ads against those search queries that looked like answers to their questions or basically click bait, and then rather than creating brand new, you know, government sponsored counter extremism content from scratch, we built to play list one in English and one in bec- that answered their questions in different ways. So the radicalized individual is searching for you know, how to get to Raka. They click on an ad that looks like an answer to their question. And then they get redirected to a video that counters the narrative on why they should go to Raka. Do you think? Companies are doing enough. I don't think we should ever be at a point where we say companies are doing enough. This is such a massive problem. And the problem is evolving so quickly that complacency is not a healthy state. I think the challenge we have is one of the private sector to think about technology, not just through a private sector lens or public policy lens. But it's important for all of us to start looking at some of these challenges through a geopolitical lens. And I think a key is not just dealing with the problem as we see it today, but also forecasting where it's going. So I assume that any terror group in the future can do all the things that ISIS was able to do online, but they'll also possess an ability to conduct cyber attacks. They may have some of the online fundraising capacity of regimes like North Korea. They may be actively involved in the types of disinformation campaigns that we see coming from Russia and elsewhere. So how do we get ahead of that? How do we spot where that might happen? And how do we address some of these challenges before they manifest themselves? In a successor ISIS. Do you think Facebook deserves a criticism? It's getting with respect to how it does. Or does not police bad-conduct on its platform. I mean, I think I think they're working on it. I think that you know, the way I view these things is are the companies taking it seriously. I think anyone who thinks the companies aren't taking seriously the idea that terrorism is a problem, and we're all sort of on the same team here. Nobody wants to see terrorism and violent extremism material also interference with the election. Trolling Botts false information being disseminated. Do you think Facebook is doing enough again? I don't think any of the companies can claim to be doing enough. But I think the important thing is the companies are moving in that direction. I think part of the problem is all of this. We became aware of all of this extremely fast and the learning curve was really steep. But I think talked to anybody you talk to even the biggest experts on the disinflation problem. You get one hundred different definitions of fake news. You get a thousand different definitions of disinformation. These are very difficult problems. Diagnose, let alone problems that have a corresponding engineering solution. And so I think that what you're getting right now is a lot of efforts to try to counter this. You certainly have the company's putting the bodies behind it. I think we all need to work a little bit harder on is forecasting where it's all going. Do you think on the issue of general toxicity and hatred and bullying on various platforms, including Facebook and Twitter was Victor Twitter. For example, I was listening to a debate on television recently about whether or not you should be able to be anonymous on Twitter and the idea that you're able to hide behind this. No, no, photograph, no, real name and people's come out. And they say terrible things about other people and contribute generally to the toxicity of that platform. Should that be disallowed should people have to reveal who they are if they're going to be on places like that? So my view is I'm in favor of real people controlling real accounts. I think the question of anonymity is a tricky one because I deal with a lot of human rights activists. And people in really repressive countries who count on anonymity, or, you know, being an image of an egg in order to be able to protect themselves and their families. So none of these things I think it's very hard. When we start trying to be binary about these things of is it good. Or is it is it bad? The answer. Is it really depends on the context just going back to something that asked a minute ago specific to white nationalism. Can these tools and redirect approaches? Do something with us back to white nationalism in white supremacy as well. So we're definitely we're definitely looking at this. And we're definitely going to experiment at deploying the redirect method which I described before against this challenge. There's there's a few things that are different about the violent white nationalist movement online, relative to the various Jihadist movement one. It's far more decentralized and more prone to the lone wolf phenomenon to there's another issue, which is you have what's called the tech ecosystem, which is basically dummy platfo. Terms to mainstream platforms that when the white nationalist gets kicked off one of the mainstream platforms. They end up there. And it almost becomes like an address book for how to find the really nasty content that's likely to get somebody radicalized. So then you start getting into kind of deepen dark web type ecosystems, and it's a lot trickier. But you you can absolutely bet on us trying to find a way to ply the tools that we've built to this challenge. Two or falls? You have a life sized figure in your office. That's true. I think you and I took a picture. You know, you said all these things about this person. And I forgot to mention that you have a life sized figure of what? And just be clear. We're not talking about a cardboard cutout. We're talking about a life size wax figure of teddy. Roosevelt had Roosevelt. Yeah. What's up with that? And he wears my dogs a little bit weird. It's weird. I don't you. Don't have you don't I don't know. I don't I don't mean to be negative. It would be weird. Or if it was like, William, Henry Harrison or more. Little more or if I just broke out with Chester, Arthur, but teddy Roosevelt's pretty. I sort of you, my wax-figure of teddy Roosevelt, the way I view the locks of presidential hair that I have hanging on frame. I wasn't going to mention that bring his because I think you've been very likable so far and people are like what's up? The hair is weird until you see it. Now, I recognize most of your viewers won't see if it you've seen it. I had gone through that journey of thinking now. And now, Jared, I cannot unsee it. Right. Exactly. You're better person that I don't know about that. Jared Cohen an honor and a pleasure to talk to you today. Good luck with the book, which is still I say it again say it accidentally presidents eight men who changed America. Congratulations. And thank you. Thanks pre. That's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest. Jared cohen. Stay tuned is presented by cafe the executive producer is Tamara supper, the senior producer is Aaron Dalton. And the cafe team is Julia Doyle, Calvin Lord, Vinay Bassetti, and Jeff is our music by Andrew Dost. If you like what we do rate and review. Stay tuned on apple podcasts every positive review helps new listeners find the show, send me your questions about news, politics and Justice. You can tweet them to me at Prete Berar with the hashtag ask creep or you can call and leave me a message at six six nine two four seven seven three three eight that's six six nine two four Preet or you can send an Email to stay tuned at cafe dot com. Cleo is the secure cloud base legal software that makes managing and growing affirm easier it automates, the tedious tasks that take up an attorney's valuable time from generating bills to maintaining endless documents Cleo's mobile app. Let you access your files from anywhere. Take your law firm to the next level with Cleo for exclusive savings. Go to Cleo dot com slash Preet and start a free trial. No credit card required. That's dot com slash Preet. Want to hear more analysis of news at the intersection of law politics injustice? Joined the cafe insider community members get access to the insider podcast bonus. Clips of stay tuned. A weekly newsletter. Text alerts and more. Visit cafe dot com slash insider to learn more. 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Jared Cohen

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

2:07:31 hr | 9 months ago

Jared Cohen

"Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert. I'm DAX Shepard. I'm joined by PAT on the campaign today. We have a really fun. Guess we really fell in love with this guy. He's he's Kinda joining the ranks you know. He's working his way into the Eric. Random Grandma category pillars the pillars of a now. Gerry Cohen is an American businessman. He's currently serving as the CEO of Jigsaw and Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He served as a member of the secretary of State's Policy Planning Staff and as an advisor to Condoleeza Rice and later Hillary Clinton he has an amazing book called Accidental Presidents Eight men who changed America Arca. We talked a bunch about that. He also has the books the new digital age children of Jihad in one hundred days of silence also a reminder that Valentine's Day is approaching which means Monica ingests. Love Boys Boys Boys Boys Boys Boys Choice Blake Bites. Johnny of this podcast is one third is fascinating is all the roundup dinner table chat about the challenges and stuff going on. It's going to be a Damn Barn Bernard. Yeah the challenges that we get at the end of each episode where their assignments for us to complete have been fascinated in your dance card has been full despoil that it's changed my life. theon has changed my life. Maybe you'll do. Monica loves everything. In my like in three years you'll be see the Dalai Lama. Oh God it's the dream. The dream will please enjoy Jared Cohen. We are supported by athletic. Greens this is one of the easiest. These things to talk to you about because I literally do it every morning. Sometimes they even do it twice a day it makes me feel turbocharged at grains is a daily all in one health. Drink was was seventy-five vitamins minerals and whole foods. Sourced ingredients that. 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Greens dot com slash DAX in claim my special offer. Twenty free travel packets valued at seventy nine dollars with your first purchase that's Athletic Greens. Greens dot com slash DAX. He's and where are you staying. The W like five minutes from here. Oh I like that place. I think they tell you when you check in there like be warned. This is an adult hotel. I got that vibe. Yeah and I kinda dig especially if I'm travelling like I'm up for seeing some shit. I told Monica this story. I was at the Mandarin Oriental. which was lovely and middle middle of the afternoon two PM? I start hearing Of fucking orgy. A BONA FIDE orgy next to my room at first. I'm like Oh someone's watching pornography really really loud but then it's going on and on and on and then I'm like I don't think that's a pornography walked out in my hallway could hear it clear as day under the thing Wa accents became a whole investigation. I had for the rest of the trip. And then I ended up meeting the two gals that were running that room at the elevator. They said Oh where we keeping you up. And I'm like no. It's great on the pedal to the. It wasn't listening jared. Welcome to armchair expert. Thank you happy to be here. Yeah we have mutual friends. We have a lot of mutual friends Ashton. In Manila Adam Grant Monica Lewinsk- Monica Lewinsky. Two of them are podcast. Friends that we've met but jared what's what's interesting scenes. We're going to talk to you about your book accidental presidents which I have read a good deal of and I really really really liking. It's super fascinating topic. But yet yet we could definitely do for hours on your other life is I think it makes it that much more interesting. That you've written this book. It would've been predicted right. Yeah I think anyone who knew me when I was a kid might have expected me to write a spokesman. There's not that many people that knew me when I was a kid because I grew up in a small town in Connecticut. Yeah so it seemed very random. Write a book about eight dead presidents to all the people I've worked with in tech and on foreign policy and business. Yes so just a real quick primer on. You is that you grew up in Connecticut. As you said and then you went to Stanford which gets Monica and I both engorge with our UNIFIL obsession this morning before you got here trying to figure out what is it. That fascinates us so much we still don't know anyways he went to Stanford. And then when you got out of Stamford. Am for Unit up working for the State Department as an intern under Condoleeza Rice. Is that by while I was still at Stanford still at Stanford Okay and then. I'll just throw this in here. You you took a trip to. Iran spent four months there. So when I was in Grad school so I went straight from Stanford to Grad. School Rhodes scholar Monica Oxford. Yeah Yeah I'm loving this. Oh no you're you're a veritable James Bond for us who is obsessed with schools rules. If you could have just squeezed semester into Harvard I think would both be nude in front of the our second Rhodes scholar right around. Oh who who else. We've had a third. But we won't chew up jared time in fact I think we've had three now which I don't even think I thought it was going to meet one in my life neatly much less okay. So while you're at Oxford you went to Iran when I was at Stanford I was obsessed with traveling to sub Saharan Africa. In one of my professors professor was worried that I was reckless. GonNa get myself killed so he basically read me a sort of almost parental edict telling me to cool it down for a while. What what was your attraction to sub Saharan Africa trip that I took when I was younger to Tanzania and I self Healey and so it started with a fascination with language and then when you spoke language you'd want to travel there and then it became an interest in conflict resolution and civil wars and then I started traveling to civil wars and my professors? Just I thought it was time to knock it off a little So I looked at a map and said where else would I find incredibly interesting where people don't go and I wanted to go to Iran And it took me almost most eighteen trips to the Iranian embassy in London to convince them to give me a visa and I got it literally twelve hours before I got on the plane. So it's hard to get a visa to go there even back back then. It was hard now obviously today probably not the however many trips. I don't think Kuranda if I could in a nutshell just because it really fascinates me and I have a armchair share speculation which is Iran is a lot of things right. You both have like this Theocracy on top of everything. But then you also have kind of progressive youth the Youth and highly educated women in general there for the Middle East right. So there's A. There's a lot of paradoxes. There aren't there yeah. It's a fascinating country. Just because our historic memory of the very revolutionary Islamic republic is very different than the reality of the population today and that became really evident to me. When I went there I went there to do a research project to interview? Opposition leaders got in some trouble with the government so they also told me knock it off. You'll notice a pattern here so I didn't WanNA leave the country so I started just hanging out with young people my own age Seagal made them tick and I got really captivated by this idea. That country of eighty million people has sixty seven percent of the population under the age of thirty thirty that I sort of started to view them as the real opposition. Sure and I was never interested in technology until I went to Iran and then I watched the way. These young people were using using technology to flirt and organize to go to parties and I realize the same tech that I used every single day they were using in novel ways that I never could have imagined and I sort of felt felt very strongly that one day that would take on a political dimension which ended up being the Arab spring. Yeah the the Green Revolution I in Iran and then subsequently the Arab spring throughout the region region is that two thousand nine thousand nine. Okay so you were an intern while still at Stanford but at some point you stay on under Hillary in the State Department correct. That's kind have kind of a rare thing to happen. I would assume do they got him or did they keep people most people. Don't stay on. It was very interesting going through a presidential transition compared imperative. Now it's probably less dramatic but at the time it seemed pretty dramatic. Yeah Bush to Obama Obama. You know there was a lot of baggage carried over. There were a lot of preconceived notions and yeah I like trying to survive. Tried to survive helped me understand because obviously I've never worked with the government very limited knowledge of how it even works but there are categories within the government that in theory at least a political right. Yeah I mean if you break down. There's obviously career civil servants Career Foreign Service and they're very apolitical. Although although I will note that the bumper stickers in the basement on the cars changed very dramatically as do the photos with important people various offices which we call them you all like the defense team for Oj where they went in there and put a bunch of pictures of him. A black folks. But there's also there's political appointments which are sort of more partisan in nature in the sense that you worked on the campaign you donate it to the campaign and you're maybe trying to execute a part of the platform or something exactly. Yeah there's a smaller category of political appointments which I was which you're you're brought in as a subject matter expert and in my case I was brought in because of an expertise on a counterterrorism on the Middle East right and all under the Veil Vale of Digital Future Right Social Media and the power of twitter and facebook and there wasn't really a thing at the State Department back then I mean it was kind of a side passionate Hashtag mine because I'd seen it in Iran I'd seen it in Lebanon. I'd seen it when I was living in Syria and Iraq and especially as the green revolution happened and then we got more evidence of how technology was infusing itself into the world I really wanted to create a portfolio and agenda that became part of foreign policies. Embrace civil of these new technologies a much less global aspect of this story. Is Your Jewish Yes that's correct so I guess if I'm Jewish and I think of the many different from countries that would love to host me. I'm not sure that some of the ones you just listed seem like the friendliest place was that your day to day experience or not. You find that like you know we're being and told the narrative and then once you got in there that people weren't really like or not I think I did what any normal Jewish kid from. I'm a small town in Connecticut would do. which is I went to your on so when you went there hit? He already said the statement we want to wipe Israel off the map. So when I was there to me was the the president but the the real person in charge of the country is Ali Khamenei the supreme leader in many He's an idea tola he's a grand ayatollah. Okay okay so those statements had already been said so you had a sense at least at least what the government felt about the state of Israel and perhaps Jewish people put large. Yeah but it was interesting. I went to Chabad services in in Iran. There are a lot of Jewish Iranians. Yeah I was there about twenty five thousand Jews. In Iran a number in Shiraz there's even the constitution mandates that there has to be a Jewish member of parliament. But I get a kick out of this because obviously the Jewish person who ends up in parliament like doesn't think Israel has a right to exist conveniently not the most loyal of the tribe right right right right so one thing. That's interesting Monica is. He got into the hot water. A wall under Hillary because you called twitter personally in urge them not to do some scheduled maintenance so that the service would be up up and running as the two thousand nine Green Revolution was gaining released protests. I don't know if it will lead to. That and Obama was made a statement. He was not a pleased about that. But then am I getting this right and then and then hillary basically said `I stand with Obama and I'm kinda stoked he did this. I didn't think I did anything wrong. I knew Jack Dorsey because one of things that I did when I worked at the State Department is I used to call up CEOS from Silicon Valley and say hey you wanna come with me like Iraq and Afghanistan and Co Dot Dot Juarez Mexico and. Let me show you all sort of crazy. Good that technology can do on the ground. If you can just get you a little more engaged so I was following the Iranian opposition on twitter and I saw one of them post that twitter was scheduling maintenance and it was gonna be in the middle of the night America time. which would be smack in the middle of the day Iran time and they were counting on twitter to get the word out about what was happening inside the country? So I just reached out to Jack Dorsey and I said Hey. This would be really much better if you could do it at a time that was inconvenient for Americans and highly convenient for Iranians because it might make all the difference and then I went to bed. I don't see any problem with that. Thank you Monica. Yeah Well I. I'm just guessing. I don't know what the policy is but I think that Obama's point was the government doesn't lean on private business to execute their foreign policy. Is that roughly. The the guidance was there will be no meddling in the protest. I mean I I didn't think it was meddling and but some people did so i. I woke up the next morning to not pleasant barrage rush of messages and long emails with lots of important people on that and my name on the front page of the New York Times. I was GONNA say that makes your position quite public blick in at any point. Did you get nervous about a war or something crazy Not a fatwa just losing my job. Okay once more more immediate. Yeah Okay after all this government service jared then went to work for Google which was then called Google ideas and then Google ideas eventually. intially spun off. And then you founded jigsaw and you are the currency. Oh you're the founder and see us right so am I understanding of Jigsaw and I'M GONNA be quoting at times from I think wire magazine. which is the goal of Jigsaw? Isn't to help realize all the best possibilities of the Internet but rather to limit all the shitty parts of it. Yeah I mean I like I like to think about it. As there's a bunch of problems that are destabilizing. The Internet that are inherently political in nature right disinformation state sponsored cyber attacks organized harassment. Rathman systematic trolling. All the things that just give us tons of anxiety and we try to look around the corner and figure out where all that's going and then we're an engineering company so we build bill products to try to address them one of the things. You guys. Obviously you guys are against indoctrinating extremists. Say That would be a topic that you're concerned about on the Internet. That's right like give me an example of a product that could help curb that so with Jigsaw. We have a very sort of firm methodology. How do things which is we forward? Deploy our people to the the most active places in the world where these problems are festering so when we decided we wanted to do something with the emergence of Isis to counter them online we sent a number of people to Iraq interview incarcerated Isis Fighters Isis defectors and to try to understand from them from the very people involved extremism how they use technology to recruit how technology technology was used to recruit them. What worked what didn't work and from that we came up with this concept that we call the redirect method where we identified roughly three to five thousand key words and phrases that people who are already radicalized are actively searching Ford? Try to take the next step and then rather than T. up ads on on display ads Edwards in video ads. That countered the narrative we teed up as looked like answers to those questions and then we built playlists in English and Arabic on Youtube that then redirected them to counter narratives. That's fascinating now. This is a total side. No but you're the perfect person. Have you watched. I am. Don't fuck with cats now. You absolutely have to. It's on Netflix. But to second version is a guy posts a video called one boy two cats he. He murders these two kittens. Maybe it's called one boy two kittens regardless it's horrific kills these two kittens in a in a vacuum seal back awful. It's awful. It's awful and then that mobilizes all these kind of Internet gumshoes that love cats and they go on this mission to find out WHO This guy is? And then then the story evolves in a way. You couldn't possibly imagine but much in this thing in in a couple of things I'm thinking of one one of them is. I really can't believe that we don't know who posts a video like how. How is that even possible? So that that dude uploaded that video we have license plates on our cars. How is it that you can exist in such anonymity? What are the pros and cons of correcting that? I mean it's just sheer volume. There's just so much content. I mean even look at the civil war in Syria you have by an order of magnitude more content. That's been uploaded to youtube then. There have been minutes in and the entire conflict which has been raging for nearly a decade. So just the sheer volume of all of this. It makes it very hard to do. Two things one prescreened content and to to figure out origin of content. Do you think is that. Would that technology even be possible when you buy a device. It has a licensed play and it doesn't matter how many times you beaming it across the world and then it goes to this site and Russia and back here that that somehow some license plate would always exist. I mean the Chinese. Do they do that. This there's a tension between the notion of free expression in control against batter illiberal uses of the Internet and Y- yeah there's lots of things that when we look at the American context of making ourselves safer making things more stable and making us more civil sound good until you start to sort of see that some of those things would be the same tactics used by repressive the misuse finding that balance. I mean there are some things that are irrefutably important for free expression. Something's era futilely important for preventing a total free for all that gray area in the middle. That I think is not very well defined and where everybody kind and a fumbles around. It is interesting because I yeah. You're right it it all depends on what my reaction what story. I saw that afternoon so then there are other times where I am Mike. A huge proponent of privacy but then I'll watch the cat thing and I'm like no killed heads in a vacuum sealed bag we should be able to find you so yeah I guess it just it all always circles back to the same debates. We've been having about liberty in this country for three hundred years that we will now have on the Internet. So Jigsaw is very fascinating and that is how you met Adam Grant Correct Act. Yes I've known Adam now eight years and I just find him to be one of the he's like he should be everybody's iota he's part executive coach and when when he sort of giving me advice. I try to sneak in a little therapeutic. Please can you just help me. A state as well and he helped me come up with a very anxious person. I've been anxious person my whole life and I worry all the time I just worry constantly and do you think just bio chemically or. Did you have a chaotic childhood or very normal childhood but the hearing think of is you know. My Dad's a psychologist grandfather was a psychiatrist. My aunt is a is is a psychiatrist. My uncle's a psychiatrist. I think you know maybe the painters houses never painted. Yeah I mean. I was always analyzed as a very happy normal childhood but I was very twitchy twitch my is all the time to move my mouth it basically when I went to college disappeared and it never created social problems for me because I was good at sports growing up. But I should should've been like a total outcast and this is the eighties. It's one of these things that my whole you know up until I was eighteen years old and went to college. I thought it was going to be one of these things that would limit. Would I be able to do you and then I went to college and for some reason it went away was yours at all mine was very very governed by making things even my move throughout my body. So it'd be squint squint. My eyes move my neck and by the way the thing that's interesting and I'd be curious if you've encountered this also. The neurological urges haven't gone away. I'm still twitchy as I've ever been. I just have moved it to non-visible places in my body and right now I try to work out but I have a twitch in my lower back so I'm running on the treadmill and I'm constantly twitching by lower back and I'm in excruciating pain. Okay but everybody can see it. Okay so you just move the muscle groups like once covered by clothes. Exactly lathwell ticks. He goes through this whole thing. He started smoking and they just they all went away and then I went back in my mind I was like Oh my God. That's that's when mine nine wins is. I started smoking. I had this outlet for all this weird things. ID or just yeah. I don't know. Do you have to travel in pajamas. Also of course Sir now do you travel. I can't. I'm so uncomfortable when I have to travel in whether it's genes or a suit. I try to travel in Pajama Ajami. Like close because of the twits Eunice. Oh Wow yeah and You've never saw any kind of medication for this now my sister she asked me about this not too long ago. Oh she said. I don't understand why it's not a big deal for you. That you like move this thing away from your face and I think that the not seeking sort uh other remedies for it and just Kinda managing it myself. In retrospect I should view it as more of a source of pride. Yeah anything else. Uh I think that would be self indulgent. But I suppose I've just done yeah. Is your sister older younger. She's three years older and she will tell you that she's about ten times smarter than me. Well the thing about sisters is They will tell you the Goddamn truth won't because I had all these weird. OCD things one of them was. I had my fingertips. Tips had to be wet at all times or just not dry. I was. I didn't want him to be so. It's always just just does dot in my tips of my fingers tongue in one time I was in the car. There's an Francie also and my sister from the banks Oh my God would you stop licking your fingers. It's so gross. I thought for sure I was doing it completely under the radar and she just totally blew me up and she was watching all of it. She knew all those tax. Yeah my sister's beef with me more. She just wants to make sure that when when somebody complements me that they know the Delta between okay all right now as a kid you had an obsession with presidents. Yeah I completely obsessed with President says a kid so starting at eight. My parents took me to a flea market and they bought me a bag. GOV presidential campaign buttons. I looked them up. And these were worth like thousands and thousands of dollars until I realized that it said reproduction pointed but they did give another the thing. which is they bought me? This book called the buck stops here. It's one of these rhyming books. One one page per president and my parents. They wanted to turn me into a precocious kid. They didn't realize they would. You have to have conversations about death with me and for about murder still remember some of the lines in that book. Thirty five is young John F and other president shot to death in I. May I remember when the Oliver Stone movie came out in the early nineties. We had a room downstairs in our house and I decided that I was going to try. Resolved the Kennedy assassination. So I had sort of thumb tacks strings going shirt picture. I wouldn't let anybody in And spoiler I never solved often. Well did you have a theory that you thought you could stand behind like was it pointing to one person or I had pretty wacky Kyrie's you know basically when you're that young they bias towards whatever you read most recently. It was a weird obsession as a kid too. You know hyper collect the presidential buttons and Presidential Memorabilia and to obsess over these sort of eight moments in history where president died in office and somebody. You're random ended up as president. Just a weird thing to spend my whole life Texas so even even in your early interest in presidents you are specifically interested trusted in the vice president's assume the command yeah. I think it's because I was sort of an obsessive compulsive. Kid I just fixated on this book that had these eight drop dead pages and you know maybe it was my parents reaction when reading it to me. I mean there's a picture of your McKinley. Keeled it over on one of them. It's not exactly kid appropriate. Well do you listen to Dan. Carlin and all okay. Do you know of his show. He's got a podcast called hard core history. It's probably the biggest history. PODCAST I've listened a few episodes but he had this great breakdown in one episode but he said the reason people gravitate towards conspiracy. Theories is that it's too scary to think that one idiot or two idiots can shape the course of history. It's a very scary notion when they're seven billion people so it's more comforting to think. Well it must have been a grand conspiracy with all these powerful elements involved. Somehow that makes the world less scary. Sorry do you think there was any of that burgling around with the JFK thing like you couldn't accept like wait. Some one idiot's changed history. I think there were a couple of things going going on with the JFK. Assassination one people were able to watch the assassination in motion because the footage to they saw the alleged assassin shot on live. TV Eh and this was the era of television. What's interesting about the other seven presidents who died in office sometimes it took a pretty lengthy period of time for the vice president to even find out that the president was dead so this was the first really kind of you know? FDR A little bit because of Radio but also everyone knew FDR was was going to die with Kennedy he was so young and vibrant. Nobody was expecting him. He was so polarizing as loved as Kennedy was he was incredibly hated in parts of the country. So you have this highly polarizing figure. He was hated in Republican circles. He was deeply deeply disliked in the rust belt. There was a perception that his father Jack Kennedy had bought him the election ride ride and in fact. There's an interesting anecdote that a lot of people don't know when when Kennedy was president elect. There is a disgruntled postal worker named Richard Pavlik. who was so angry? That Kennedy's father had purchased him the election that he sold all his belongings and use the money to buy a Green Buick in dynamite and then stock Kennedy all across the country and filled up his buick with that dynamite and tried to kill him as a suicide bomber. He was parked right outside of his home in West Palm Beach and decided not to to do it because he saw one of the Kennedy children so we followed him to church. Move the dynamite. In his pants were standing. Four feet from the president elect this hand in his pocket and his finger on the trigger. Ready to blow low himself up the president elect and everybody in the Church and he again decided not to do it because he saw some children out of the corner of his eye. This goes really hand strong with his own conscious Gillies was he only wanted to kill him And how was he discovered he had worked with a nondescript old postal worker and hit with sending him cryptic postcards to their tax postcards figured it out and alerted the secret service and he was pulled over for a a routine traffic stop in West Palm Beach. I don't know how that dynamite got my song frame up very creepy looking guy. What's interesting is even though you have eight presidents who died in office? There are another nineteen that almost and while. We're on the theme of sort of attempted assassinations yet when FDR was president-elect his his very first speech as president elect in Miami. He's sitting on the back of Agana. Buick I don't know what the deal was very trusted vehicle gives a two and a half minute speech speech and then an Italian immigrant named Zep. He's Gara fires five shots in fifteen seconds at him and the bullets would have killed president-elect Roosevelt but one hundred pound woman named Lillian in cross saw him pull the revolver out and smooth her purse from her left arm to her right arm and smacked the gun thwarting his aim saving FDR and saving the new deal. Wow well let's just digest slow down for a while cross yeah Monica Hundred Pounder Pounder. Oh my good- Monica. Do you think if you're in the situation that you would grab one of your hand but it depends on a handbag probably everything. Luckily she probably didn't have her favorite handbag with her. Stay tuned for more armchair. If you dare we we are supported by butcher box. The big game is just around the corner which means lots of good times with friends and lots of food snacking his half the fun I'd argue. It's probably ninety percent of the funder under me now. Butcher box has the best meat out there. High Quality Right to your house. 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That's butcher box dot com slash tax or use Promo Code box at checkout. We are supported by frame bridge. Monica's favorite place to prepare a gift for a loved one. Well when I well I have my new house but when I move in Nair Minnie's Frame Bridge to frame all my art. Oh yeah they make it super easy and affordable to frame your favorite things from art prints and posters to photo sitting on your phone owned by the way you should. You should frame some year like Matt Damon Posters and stuff. Oh my God it's so easy. Here's how it works. You just go to Fridge Dot Com and upload your photo or they'll send you packaging to safely mail your physical pieces. You preview your item online in any frame styles your favorite or get free recommendations from their talented designers. The experts it's at frame bridge will custom frame your item and deliver your Finnish piece directly to your door ready to hang. Instead of the hundreds you'd pay a framing store. Their prices started just thirty nine dollars. All shipping is free plus armchairs will get fifteen percent off their first order at frame bridge dot com. When they use Promo Code? Dax Get started today frame. Your you're photos or give the perfect Valentine's gift go to frame bridge dot com and use Promo Dax save an additional fifteen percent off your first order. Just go to frame bridge DOT COM PROMO CODE DAX FRAME BRIDGE DOT COM Promo Code. So you run Jigsaw. EXHAU- in your world is tech yet. You have this fascination with presidents in you have written this book accidental presidents and again. It's about eight presidents who died and then of course there vice president came in to fill their shoes. And then there's there's all kinds of things to explore within that I love history and I didn't know no this until recently Garfield right. He he went to a convention to make a speech for another candidate. And then there was this crazy lockout where they couldn't decide and then becauses husband speech was so good all of a sudden he ends up. Walking out of there with the nomination is that right Garfield to this date is the only person ever to become president resident who wasn't actively seeking their party's nomination through the ballot boxes so Garfield went to the convention in eighteen eighty which was supposed to be between in James Blaine and ulysses grant for a nonconsecutive third term. He was there as the campaign manager to the guy running third in the polls the governor of Ohio and the thirty something ballot there at a deadlock and somebody's shouts his name out and next thing he knows he's been given the nomination and he runs up on stage and he says I protest a man and who does not seek the nomination cannot be given the nomination they say screw. You were giving it to you anyway. All my teen insane so served these different. I I love biographies. I Love Historical Biographies and slowly picking up some of this presidential stuff. I mean the Lyndon B Johnson ones right now in one of the things that I I didn't know about and I would love for you to tell the history before we get into these vice presidents is. They were not throughout the majority of history picked by the candidate and they were often assigned right and often it was from the opposing party right. So how did the role of the Vice President Star in. How's IT evolved? So the framers of the Constitution. They didn't want the vice president. They ended up as a last minute addition to the constitution having vice president mainly as an electoral mechanism. That the person who got the second number number of votes would end up as vice president. which is what happened to John Adams and happen to Thomas Jefferson and what was happening is frequently ties? We're taking place so then ratified the Twelfth Amendment which had the electors cast ballots separately for the vice president and the president. But you're right throughout history. The presidential candidate not only. You didn't choose their own. Vp but it was seen as incredibly taboo to try to influence that decision. Well even campaigning was seen in as disgusting for quite a while right there. That was a paradigm shift it was seen as uncouth to even try to campaign and gain support. That's right. It's really early early. Twentieth Century Phenomenon for the presidential nominee to canvass and campaign for election was even the sort of back porch campaigning. upstanding out there and people coming to you was seen as highly out there and you know unbefitting of a president the other thing. That's interesting back in for most of the history. Three of our republic. The president was completely consumed with office seekers so anybody could walk in and out of the Executive Mansion and which was later called the the White House. So you know these presidents would just sit and deal with people seeking offices all day every single day Ryan and and it would it would overwhelm them. And it became all consuming and and it took three presidents being assassinated for the federal government to decide maybe presidential protection. A good idea William McKinley who's assassinated in Nineteen ninety-one one is recently as his assassination. Presidential Protection was basically seen as a way to dish out spoils to your friend so his buddies from Ohio or the ones protecting him. Sure a bunch of guys out of shape and half in the bag smoking cigarettes. Well okay so step one in vice president world was. Whoever was runner-up runnerup basically became vice president and then what was the next phase so then the next phase is at the party convention? They would nominate presidential candidate and then the party would basically you decide who the VP nominee would be typically without any consultation with the person they dominate to be president so it was typically a marriage of political convenience to win a state appease constituency. But it this is. The pre primary presidential primaries. Don't happen until you know the sort of Middle Part of the twentieth twentieth century so back then the selection was typically away to get the party to rally around the nominee who's more often than not polarizing to one flank of the party or another. And a Lotta time remember. You have a real sectional balance in the country between North and south because of the issue of slavery so you know a lot of times. The vice president was used to balance the ticket and bring certain elements of the party from one section or another along to the campaign. Yeah they'd throw The southerners of bone by picking someone from the South right well. That's the case of Lincoln Right. Andrew Johnson was anesthetic on all ways to to Lincoln wasn't so what's interesting about Andrew. Johnson is historically we look back and we see him as the disaster that he was in the election of eighteen sixty four one lincoln thought. He was almost certainly going to lose the election. This is for the second term the second term and they thought the only way to win the election was depicted. More Democrat from a border state and the Andrew Johnson was basically the only one but Andrew Johnson in eighteen sixty four his rhetoric on punishment for traitors and his rhetoric civil rights were more progressive than even Abraham Hamm Lincoln because he loved the Union more than anything and so long as the union was broken. He would do everything he could to put it back together so. Lincoln violates the rule and engages in a secret intrigue and conspiracy to get Andrew Johnson. Put on the ticket and then has the most disastrous debut of anybody's as president in history. Yeah and I'm trying to think what book I read that Kinda got in. Oh I guess it was probably grant a chair now. Have you read that book. The that's great right. Yeah because it dealt with reconstruction and at least Ron Chernow's was not a big fan of Andrew Johnson. I left reading that book thinking. Well that's gotTa be the worst guy we've ever had could. Did you crown someone as the very worst. So Andrew Johnson to me is by far the worst president in the history of the republic just because he became president at a time where he was presiding over a moment where mistakes would have one hundred plus year consequences right so think about this. Lincoln and Johnson are inaugurated on March march fourth. Eighteen sixty five. Andrew Johnson goes to take the oath of office is completely hammered. And it's supposed to last literally thirty seconds and put his hand on the Bible. He ends up going on for seventeen minutes insulting every single member of the cabinet and the remember the secretary of Navy's name so pauses to find out his name proceeds to slobber all over the Bible and then he's too drunk to swear the new senators in so yes a poor clerk to do it for him five weeks later. Lincoln Dead Oh not only. Do you get the drunkard Andrew Johnson as president of the United States but instead set of Abraham Lincoln presiding over reconstruction you get the last president to own slaves a man who was born a racist and died racists who wants the civil war was over ever went back to who he really was and let the states handle. Civil rights gave amnesty to everybody. And we get a delay of civil civil rights by one hundred plus years. This is all stuff I had not learned in school and I didn't realize it until reading grant which was the headline of the civil the war being of course Manson patient proclamation freeing the slaves but really the real gnarly steps all that reconstruction right. That's where like you have all these new rights. If we folded the south back in we were telling them that. Now you've got to let Black folks vote when black folks vote. You have squads of Snipers snipers killing them and then you have people calling for the federal government to send troops down to protect them so they can vote. You have Andrew Johnson in there and he's not doing that yeah that's right. I think I spent the most amount of time researching Andrew Johnson for this book and I found it tortuous. He's such a dark human being and such a disturbing human being. And you realize you know how a haphazard choice to put somebody on the ticket to win an election gave us the black codes which were the precursor to the Jim Crow laws which gave us a one hundred years of segregation. We're still dealing with the aftermath of of of putting Andrew Johnson on the ticket sixty four. And since you love James Garfield his the fact that Garfield ends ends up as the nominee and president in eighteen eighty. Without seeking it out was the best opportunity we had to reverse what Andrew Johnson had put did he liam immediately following under Johnson. So you had Andrew Johnson and then two terms of ulysses grant all right right right right right and then. The election of eighteen seventy six gave us Stratford Hayes and the end of reconstruction. And then. That's when the Jim Crow laws begin because reconstruction ends but Garfield because he wasn't attached to any political party in you know in terms of of owing them a debt of loyalty news a Republican but he got the nomination without seeking it. This was a man who has a teenager hit runaway slaves who Espouse House two principles that would define his presidency. He wanted universal suffrage any wanted universal education and then the second is he wanted an end to the spoil system. despoil system the principle of you win the election and all your friends and supporters end up in positions of high power. So if anybody could have reversed Jim Crow it would have been James Garfield old but mentally ill office seeker. Put two bullets in his back. Four months after he became president four. That's all. He was president for four months. Oh my goodness well well. Also I think it's relevant to point out. We lose sense of just how frequently world leaders were just being assassinated. It was like every six years some very prominent world leader was going down. East happen all the time. What's amazing is the two longest periods of American history without a president? Dying in office. Were George George Washington to William Henry Harrison in eighteen eighteen forty one and then JFK to the president so in-between. The president used to die in in office like every ten to twenty years. That's before you even get into all the assassination attempt so imagine this the longest period of time without a president dying in office. We have the oldest incumbent in the history of the Republic and the two leading contenders on the democratic side are both in their late seventies. Yeah so oh we. We don't wish to ever go through this again but we take for granted how frequently this used to happen. And the shock to the country system from losing the man who was elected then ending up with somebody who in all eight of the cases took the country in a completely different direction is is mortifying to Solomon exhilarating to others right. Yes so because of that. You assume that this upcoming election cycle that people will recognize that that these are quite old candidates by by history standards in that The backup plan should be one. That's pretty well thought out and vetted you think that'll be the topic that has more relevance than it has in the past or you think people just blow by that going. Oh they'll live forever. I think people will pay lip service but the way that things are done now where where the candidate gets to choose their own running mate lends itself towards. It's a particular moment in the election cycle. I'm up against the ropes and I need to bounce bounce the polls ten points and this is the best way to do it and then they manufacture some answer. This person is fit to lead and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. But it's grossly irresponsible way to choose somebody who could one day become commander in chief and it also lends itself towards another interesting phenomenon. which is if you're the candidate? You WanNa make sure you don't pick somebody who's more exciting fighting an interesting the new and you WanNa make sure you don't pick somebody who's such a disaster. Had they embarrass you so you basically end up netting out at picking the junior varsity version Russian of yourself and my problem with this is i. Don't want the junior varsity person as the commander in chief. I want the captain of the Varsity team. Yeah and presidential candidates are not incentivized to do that. Why wouldn't they want someone that could outshine them? I mean ultimately. How would that cost them anything in this election? It might be different because it's unprecedented to have candidates this age running on both sides and so you could imagine this time around that there's going to be a real desire to pick the assert future leader of the party on both sides now there would be two ways. There's probably nine ways to look at it but the two most obvious explanations for this seemed to be one people are living longer so naturally people live longer and longer and longer. We'll probably see people older and older that are able to have that position. So that's that's one explanation. Another one would seem to also be that. Wow I'm both sides. Seem to be saying they want something from a bygone era or they are romantic about some way of life that these two individuals live through and know how to return us to is that fair to guess. That's that's one way to look at it. I think what you're really saying is both sides are espousing this view of kind of some sort of return to normalcy The the problem is if you look at. There's an irony one hundred years ago. Warren harding who also died in office ran on a platform of a return to normalcy. Had World War. One two terms of Wilson Wilson's spent his last year completely incapacitated with a stroke. People just wanted the economy to go back to normal they wanted no foreign entanglements in so harding's hold. All campaign was put America first returned to normalcy and then before his term ended up he died in office. How did he die? He died of a brain hemorrhage judge. Okay and he left behind an avalanche of scandal that landed on the lap of Calvin coolidge two months after he. He took the oath of office but the economy was doing so well. It was the roaring twenties that nobody cared. Nobody cared about kickbacks and oil scandals and kickbacks except the Veterans Bureau they didn't care that the attorney general was complicit in all sorts of stock manipulation and bootlegging and fight fixing. And you name it. They just cared that this with the Arab Eskimo pies consumer products. Everybody was doing well and it all came crashing down with Herbert Hoover in nineteen twenty nine so that brings up a great the topic which is As I've read these biographies I realized how ignorant I was to how this country true really has worked for. Its most of its history. You realize that whatever you think you're returning to just know what you're asking to return to because in general aw tons of corruption tons of kickbacks t I mean just. I think it's tempting for people to think that they are observing the worst ever in in our political history and then just as in our history in general and there's there is a tiny bit of arrogance to it that you would think you're witnessing the very worst thing but just it's important to know right what what we've we've come from and and the little baby steps that have been bettering the process the whole time and those have really have been happening if you take a thirty thousand feet view view of the whole history. How relevant is that? People understand our history so that they know where we're going amending. This is one of my biggest concerns is that we've lost understanding of the importance of history. Don't I love computer science. I love technology. I think social media has its values. But it's it's increased the pace of things and trivialized the substance of things. So much that we've forgotten to ask the question. Have we seen this this before. Or what does this look like before is it. Is it a quantity and band with issue. Is that part of the promises. So much info nonstop. I think it's a couple of things I think some it is sheer volume of of content. Bam with I think some of it is. We've disparaged the humanities in favor of the sciences and I love the sciences too but not at the expense pence of the humanities. And what's interesting is when I started to write accent presidents you know. Donald Trump wasn't even on the scene. People were pretty sure they knew what the outcome of of the two thousand sixteen presidential election was going to be and what ended up being most fascinating for me in the five and a half years that I wrote this book is it was a refresher her in. Just how polarized just how divided just how corrupt just how complicated the American republic has been throughout history and and I find myself looking at everything that people are hysterical about today and it has its roots in things that we've seen before whether it's polarization whether it's partisan politics whether it's sort of foreign entanglements. Yeah in the thing is I never point this out to suggest you shouldn't care about what's going on today or you shouldn't be fighting for what needs to improve today today but just the this is the worst it's ever been is such a defeatist point of view and it really doesn't bear much truth and but how do you think today ranks. Thanks in that division so I agree with you completely. This is this is far from the most divided and polarized. This country has been. It's interesting the two most. Partisan it is in chapters of American history. Were the slavery era and the Post Slavery era. The difference now is that the the politics and the polarization is partisan by party lines whereas the divided aspects of our country were north and south. They were more sectional. They reflected more fissures along sociological aspects of our society. So if you look at the partisan politics today it doesn't have a lot of depth to do it. It's about party loyalty in one direction or another. Yes we've seen. Both sides wavering. Completely on what. They were even in the eighties when I grew up bright. So you've got the Republican spending untold amounts of money and growing government. which were they were always against you? Have you know the left embracing these war options. They wouldn't have in the past like it didn't seem like there's a bed rock of what the position of the parties is anymore. You're the parties have flip flopped tremendous amount throughout history. Just look at the Democrats crafts during the era of segregation in the south. Yes this is what I wanted you to walk us through and explain because I just over Christmas with my brother. So we're my brother and I are not politically politically aligned. Which is pretty common families I think but he was like what Republicans freed the slaves and I said well yes the word Republican could be used to say that but I think we should be looking at the content which was Abraham Lincoln was insanely progressive? Right we could all agree. He was probably was he the most progressive president we've ever had. I mean what's what's entering Lincoln. Lincoln Lincoln was at the time really more of kind of a centrist it was the radical Republicans who he was concerned about wanting to accelerate things too quickly. So the the. There's a whole flank of the Republican Party that was mostly based out of New England. That wanted Lincoln to go even further and so he was is wrestling with Sort of far right version and he at the time was much more of a centrist. We just think back on his tenure and what he did and we've you has progressive. I would say teddy. Roosevelt more than any other president ushered in a level of progressivism. That we'd never seen before. But it's only because he was elevated needed to the presidency upon mckinlay's assassination He has the greatest line of any president ascending upon the death of their predecessor. Where he says is it's a terrible thing to come into the presidency this way but it would be far worse to be Morbid about it? And that's Teddy. Roosevelt said that he was also a warmonger. Theodore Roosevelt in the context of today would make the most hawkish presidents look like doves. I mean this this is a man who he just love. War Entire childhood upset that his father got himself recused from participating in the civil war and atoning for that and looking for a war and the poor guy had no wars going on the also grew very sickly right with with asthma and then he went to some dude ranch and found himself and became strong in Vero and I think he was compensating for having been a weakling as a kid he he was told he wasn't going to survive and he was told by his doctor and his father that he needed needed to make himself fit if he wanted to survive so he he was also extremely depressive. And these guys right yeah. He was deeply deeply deeply disturbed. He I think a lot of his hyperactivity ambition came from this desire to outpace his own depression so he raced through life and he rushed through life. Faster than anybody. WHO's a totally intoxicating character uses great moment? The biggest mistake of his life is when he wins election. He's the first accidental president to win election in in his own right in nineteen. Oh four of all the people that assume the office as vice president became president. None of them won reelection. Except for the first I I did not and then the second Ford did okay. He kind of set a pattern and so he immediately announces. He's not going to seek reelection in one thousand. Nine hundred eight comes to regret it. Tremendously comes back to try to run for president as a Bull Moose Third Party in nineteen twelve and while giving a speech he gets shot and the bullet penetrates forty forty page. Speech hits his glasses case. He unbuttoned his shirt. Tells the crowd that he's an expert taxidermist and he's examined the wound and he can survive long enough to finish the speech. Each and get to the hospital does not feel real right in the win. That one I know okay but what were the progressive things. He implemented at the time that would make him the most progressive president so for Theodore wrote the trust busting was highly highly radical at the time the other thing is he. He was just big on government accountability. So when he was police. Commissioner in New York used to go round in the middle of the night with a pat and paper you know sort of almost shadowing police officers. I've writing down. Their misbehavior and their misdeeds drove. Everybody nuts because he was he was a very aretha thorough integrity or I. That was the word I would use. he was dedicated to ending corruption. And all those things he he was a virtuous man on some levels levels right he was virtuous he was self righteous and he. He was more progressive than anyone else of his day at that at that time. Okay so now back to this flip between the Republican look-in Party in the Democrat Party so yes. Lincoln was a Republican. We would agree. Probably Lincoln wouldn't be a Republican today. Or why even guess that it's hard to say. Hey in this. In this context did flip right name switched. Yeah how did that. How did that happen? What were the steps to that? The names were always switching the Republican Party emerges urges because the Whig Party essentially collapses and the poor wigs. They twice elected a hero. War General William Henry Harrison Eighteen. Forty Zachary Taylor in eighteen forty eight and they both drop dead Harrison after thirty days in office accurate Taylor after after a year in office and so so the party it fell apart and it gets replaced by the Republican Party but when Lincoln runs for reelection in eighteen sixty four they rebrand. The Party is the National Union Party. Because it's a split ticket between and Johnson as a war Democrat in Lincoln as as a Republican Do you think currently our Dr candidates are at the most extreme in their party as it's ever been as far as we have some very left candidates on the Democrat grant side in some obviously very extreme. Right candidate is well. I feel like this is the first election where we don't have very many moderate options nations. Yeah I think that's a great insight. Monica I think the uniqueness of the current moment right partisanship has been around forever polarization. It's been around forever. What's happening happening now? Is it's taking place at a moment where we're seeing the complete. Evaporation of the center. Excess th th this country used to be governed by the center And it had to contain tain different flanks of both parties or you know sort of sectional partisans and now what we're seeing is polarization and partisanship on the far flanks. Thanks of both parties and a shrinking middle and never been there before. Okay great so that leads to a question that you'd be uniquely skilled to answer. Which is this is my theory on social media dive not unique in this theory but the fact that the the more outrageous statement you make on twitter the higher higher likelihood it becomes a headline in Click Bait economy or a click economy the most provocative things going to get the most amount of clicks? So is that what has led to this like extremism on both sides of the spectrum. Do you think I I think they're part of it. I think it's a couple of things one I think that technology. She has removed the intermediaries that used to be the disseminators of information and now any individual can own develop and disseminate their own content right. Hi So everybody's a publisher That that's that's one thing that play too. I think that the accelerated pace of movement making that's come with technology has slowed down leadership your ship development. So I think we have an endowment of good leaders that's drying up and our society doesn't seem to be producing a lot of good strong new leaders anymore. There's exceptions but but we're not building the pipeline of leaders in the US and the democratic world that we used to impart because you people become flash in a PAN public figures of four they become seasoned leaders. If you look at the the Nelson Mandela's the the goals of the world you know. It took them decades to become leaders before they became public figures and by then they'd really sort of refined their skills so the erosion of leadership is the second thing and then the third is. I can't can't help to look at social media. Sometimes you as of vortex of voyeurism in the sense that you click Ba- sensational all comments only work if there's a lot of voyeurs searching for it and gravitating towards it and it's true in a world of clicks and likes and so forth you know we are measuring ourselves based on how many followers we have how much affirmation we have a clear that sort of saying substantive wonky insights. Don't get you either so my theory is like okay so I would imagine. Eighty percent of the country doesn't agree with a far left or the right but you will never read a headline that says I propose a great compromise between these two valid points. Like that's just never GONNA BE A a headline on CNN or anything so we're simply not even reading those ideas. That seem like a compromise or well-thought-out or so I don't know like what's the chicken and what's the egg where where do you especially. Someone runs jigsaw like what is the mechanism by which we could re amplify. What I imagine is the majority of the country? Yeah I mean imagine if social media had existed during during some of these seminal moments in history that I write about in the book you wouldn't have had a compromise of eighteen fifty that delayed the civil war by ten years. You wouldn't have had the backdoor your dealings that happened in Congress that resolves some of the most important disputes in history so so in some respects everything playing out on such a superficial level so much public makes makes deal making much more difficult and if dealmaking is more difficult than the most contentious issues. Don't get resolved oft in private and instead they play out in public and if they're playing out in public and you have an evaporating center than it's impossible or difficult to imagine extremes on both all sides but I guess my question is do we have an evaporating center is their statistics to support that or do we just be silenced. Majority that's Central there's an evaporating center in the representation but not necessarily in the people. I think the problem is we don't really know right. I can't imagine like I guess here's what happens. I go on twitter and I I read stuff and I'm like Oh my God. The far left is so fucking nuts. The far right is so fucking nuts and then I talked to any human being in real life and find almost nobody I know is on either besides of those tales and yet I you don't get a sense that that's the case on facebook or twitter but in real life. It seems very obvious to me that most of us are are far more centrist than than it seems to be represented on stay tuned for more armchair if you dare we supported by hellofresh get mouth-watering seasonal recipes and premeasured ingredients delivered. Right to your door with hellofresh America's America's number one meal Kit hellofresh cooking at home easy and affordable hellofresh now from five sixty six per serving. Monica what are you. Sink your savory teeth teeth into Oh my goodness I had a squash and sage Rosado when Hamas and walnuts it was so win Torri three and really fortifying. Did you pair it with a wine at paired with a red wine. Oh my gosh now let me tell you what I got myself into a bold in beefy Taco with Tangy slaw Pico and guacamole bream. Are you kidding me. I paired it with a non alcoholic. Beer Ashok felt like I was on the shores of the Baja and Mexico off whisked me away now listen. hellofresh recipes are delicious and they're so easy to prepare repair twenty two season all plus chef curator recipes each week. There's something for everyone including low Calorie Vegetarian family friendly recipes. Most of the meals can be prepared and just just around thirty minutes or even twenty minutes with two quick recipe options. It's also incredibly flexible for your lifestyle right. 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Experience unlike other puzzle games out there best fiends updates the game monthly with new levels and event. So it never gets old you like that now. It doesn't require the Internet to play. That's what I like most about it so I can plan on the airplanes great for traveling play anywhere plane subway etc the best parts who is just collecting the characters. It turns me into a real hoarder me too. Now engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must us play download best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the best scenes. Yeah and I think the problem is if you're connected to the Internet you're splitting your time between in physical and digital worlds right and you kind of have multiple personalities right. You've got your personality on twitter and other social media outlets and so forth and then you've got your persona from when you interact with people in real life and they're not always the same and often times. They're they're not so the reason it's hard to evaluate what's happening to the center center of this country. Is You have a perception. That comes from what we see playing out in public where there's a lot of volume. Yeah and then you have a reality. That is the people you physically interact with and that sample size just isn't large enough Ryan. But I think you're making an important point here. which is the voices of reason are sort of the equivalent prevalent of the voices of stability? And it's much easier to be allowed destabilizing voice than it is to be a voice of reason stability. So what happens is all of the commentary. Terry that is reasonable and practical. You know ends up getting drowned out by loudest voices if you if you were to walk into a parking lot and they were one hundred people and you were sort of you know a practical voice among ninety plus voices of extremism. Yeah that's right and you just put it on another thing when you talk about the fact. That deals deals used to happen with some level of anonymity or privacy. I also I. I do empathize with the people in Congress and in the Senate Senate in that any move they make will be public in two seconds. That's a huge difference right. I think about this the impeachment trial and I think to myself twelve. What are the merits of having it be a public vote like wh? Why is it that they that it's not a private vote? I wonder what the vote would be if if people got to cast their ballots in private in the Senate and I'm sure there's a great argument for why we should know how voting because we elected them and if they're not voting the way we want so I I'm sure I see the argument but at the same time I feel like a lot of these issues now has become so politicized and partisan that like I don't think you could get someone to vote with their our heart because they would be immediately blasted in killed because we all know about thirty five seconds. Yeah what's interesting about impeachment in some respects I think the founders and the framers of the Constitution. They didn't quite get this right. They picked partisan bodies to play the role of judge and jury and as long long as the founders were alive they never impeach the president. They never even attempted to impeach the president and the last of the founders Di was James Madison in eighteen thirty six and then John Tyler in eighteen forty three becomes the first president to have articles of impeachment brought against ground he. It was completely politically motivated because Henry Clay in the party were upset that John. Tyler wasn't pushing their agenda and their view was he only became president because Harrison died dafter thirty days and so he was particularly weak so they tried to. They tried impeach him. It didn't work. They ended up formerly excommunicating. He's the only president to get kicked out of his his own party and Andrew Johnson who we all loathe You know it's interesting that everybody when we talk about the stain of Andrew Johnson on our history points to the fact that he was impeached. There's many reasons to criticize Andrew Johnson at almost trivializes those many reasons to criticize him by pointing to impeachment because he was impeached impeach by radical Republicans. who had thought he was one of them Quickly realized he wasn't and impeach him for a law that was later deemed unconstitutional which which was a law called the tenure of Office Act said that the president couldn't fire appointees that were approved by the Senate without approval from the Senate So that's what they got him on so he was the first president to be impeached. And then you know. He's an accidental president. So there's no vice president until nineteen sixty seven with the twenty fifth amendment. There's no constitutional provision provision for filling that they can see so at the time in the late eighteen sixty s the next in line would have been the president pro temp now the president pro tem was is in the Senate so the Senate is trying a president were in there where one of their own would end up as president and Johnson an escaped conviction by a single. Oh So has anybody been convicted so you need a simple majority of the house to impeach each which all that means is the house decides and votes to put the president on trial in the Senate. You then need two thirds of the Senate to vote to convict the president which would remove the the president from office in two thirds. Vote is almost impossible to get right other. They came very close with Andrew Johnson. But it's never been gotten it's never been gotten and so almost every instance where there's been articles of impeachment brought against the president of the United States have been politically motivated. Everyone all the way up to Nixon. Oh because I was going to save for for me and my mind. At least I wasn't coherent during next but the way it was presented my whole childhood was that seem seem to be one. Everyone agreed on. Is that accurate yet. I think Nixon. In the case of Nixon he resigns. Because there's bipartisan agreement. That he's committed high crimes and misdemeanors so Nixon. The Republicans basically go to Nixon and they say we have the two thirds votes in the Senate resign or you're going to be convicted and be the only one in his so. He resigned and in some respects. That's kind of how it should work right where you spare the country along trial. You have sort of bipartisan consensus. You wonder if it would have played out the same way with Nixon had social media. Bit around the. Yeah now I mean but it's it's I mean you can ask that about a lot of moments in history. Yeah only been three four for at this point right well. So you have Andrew Johnson impeached. Ah You have Bill Clinton impeached and then you have President trump impeach right. But you've had another ten or so that. Have you know had attempts at impeachment meeting somebody buddy. A member of all it takes is one member of the House to bring articles of impeachment against President. just a lot of cases. Nobody voted for them right. They they were always politically motivated. Always yeah that makes sense. Okay now. This one's just a juicy one in one that I've always kind of had a An issue within in this will be unpopular. But I will say and it probably stems from me coming of age and being a Democrat when Clinton was impeached is probably we some. How motivated by that? If I'm being honest with myself but I have always thought I don't give a fuck if someone is unfaithful i. What does that have to do the job I elected them to do? I don't care by the way. I'm not a trump supporter. The lease interesting thing other than when it's been predatory and potentially illegal if he's just having an affair I'm I'm not really that interested in it. I I don't think fidelity is one of the virtues that I need in a president. This you know regular support for this is always that will they. They put themselves in a position to be blackmailed. This is how they got rid of portray us for his affair right. Is that if you if you have an affair. You're potentially to hide that you could be devoted to some kind of outside state now. I've always thought that's kind of Horsh it. I don't know that I buy that. But how many of the presidents were unfaithful that we know of a a lot of them. I mean I I. This is sort of This is something that I wrestled with my editors on because I really my mom calls accidental presidents. Very smutty. I get into a little bit of sex in the book. Washington father twenty-nine illegitimate children. Don't go too fast. Let's just think about that. So George Washington fathered twenty nine eleven allegedly. Wow Holy Shit I did not I shock you even more yes please. Warren harding impregnated a woman in a five by five hat closet in the White House while he was president. All my goodness okay shall like going. Oh my God. I never stopped as Monica favorite. The high grover. Cleveland fathered an illegitimate child as well so much so that the campaign against him was Ma. Ma where's my PA. He's gone to the White House. ha ha ha. Oh my God everyone knew about it. These were out in the open rally open and people didn't care right. There was a paradigm shift right. I can't remember around what president but the but the media used to not cover that that was kind of some weird rule that they had where they didn't really do that. When did that change? So I think Cleveland Wind was Kinda the watershed moment but then it picked up again with Warren harding because there were rumors about race right so when it involved race I. It ended up complete fleet BS. Oh rumor but when there's rumors involving race they ended up getting tougher with Thomas Jefferson Valley hemmings wasn't talked about until much much later amazingly controversial stories. Right you know John. Tyler becomes a widower president and ends up marrying a woman. Half his age while he's presidents the first presidential essential. Oh so what was his agent. What was her? He was in his fifties and she was just barely twenty fun. Fact About Tyler. Her Father Fifteen children and two of his grandsons are still alive. No Way Man born during the administration of George Washington who has two grandsons who are amazing. He fathered last child while he was in his seventies that child fathered two children when he was in his seventies and those children are now in their ninety s father awesome children going up and FDR FDR's mistress was one of the people by his bedside while he was dying. There's it's actually a fair amount of evidence that FDR was relatively a sexual okay. for for much of his life. So maybe the mistress was just an a companion. You're exactly I mean I think. FDR was prone to optional affairs right. Eleanor is just so damn busy going on for herself. If no one who had committed infidelity could be a Leader we would've lost out on a bunch of our leaders. Let's start there right and I think And this is this is less about fidelity and just the continue desire to move the the bar closer and closer towards perfection if our standard is absolute perfection. WE'RE GONNA end up being led by the leftovers and the leftovers are not really really who I necessarily you know people people who are so perfect in so calculating they never take any re- that's that's a level of robotic system that I don't really they want in charge of the country. Yeah the also believe. This is what I always argued about. Clinton it's like people were shocked that he would have the audacity you to have these affairs and I thought well if your whole life you learned a rule and then you discovered the ruled that apply to you then of course why would that rule will be any different like. You've you've made a life of being a super young governor and then a soup you know you've broken. All these rules are proven these rules not to apply to you then. I think it's not a stretch to imagine. Will the these other rules don't apply to me either and I kind of need someone in that position that doesn't think the rules apply to them on on some level which is so sweet spot once your president. Though and I'm sensing from Monica's body language of once you're in the White House wants you occupy the office. There is a standard that we should be holding you too because you are supposed to kind of almost I have an out of body experience and become the president. You almost put your humid your humanness. Aside and for the next eight years be the president right. People have complicated lives. Yeah but I believe that. When you're an elected official your put there by the voters you're put there by the taxpayers? The tax payers are betting on you. And you're you're supposed to represent the integrity of the country. What you do before and you do after is between you in the law and UN? Your yes the. I agree but let me paint an analogy. So you're about to go get a liver transplant. And you're presented with two options. This surgeon is a five on the skill level but he has never cheated on his wife. This guy is a ten. He's the best surgeon in the world and he fuck someone hourly. Who are you going to have do your surgery? I'm at one hundred percent of us are going to have the guy who's a piece of shit morally but it's the best surgeon. The world do our liver transplant but the but morality does transfer transfer more in politics in governing leadership surgery. Done so good point. That's great thank you so you just to consider a little bit. How they behave 'cause it will potentially transfer into how they behave in being the president Margaret? Maybe you agree with me on. This tax is a perfect. If somebody's cutting me open and doing surgery on me I don't want them to be thinking about who sexing me right now. Well no we we already have the data. We know that there are ten. They've taken an aptitude test in this hypothetical and they are the best surgeon region ensure when they open up your body. You're like ooh that kidney looks like titties I love titties Blah Blah Blah. But they move past that and then they get to the business at hand they go into zone on they get into a state of flow. Anyone would pick that person. You're right so different. It's not the same thing. Yeah I just wonder if we need to be a little less delicate delicate about to your point if we're asking for someone who have been to have lived forty five to fifty six years flawlessly. That's the only person that is qualified. I think we're we're in a very dangerous situation. I want the guy that will take the big swing. I once you thing. Sully you good in a nightclub think again Monica. I think the best rockstars have been the ones that were super juicy but wait so i. This conversation makes me a a little nervous. Because you know you're having a conversation that is what trump supporters think that. They think they think it doesn't matter that he's saying saying grabbing women by the Pussy. Those things are irrelevant to what he can do. He's going to make America Great. Yeah and I hate that I Louis. The in I don't like it either but I forced myself at all times anytime. One of these stories comes out. I literally force myself to imagine the exact same. The story came out about Obama because I loved Obama. But that's not the point so you just have to force yourself to imagine it's Obama. They're saying about this in Obama's with some dude on a bus and he says oh I grand by the Pussy first of all. 'cause I love Obama Mike. I bet he doesn't even mean that I think he's trying to be funny to that guy. I think he wants to like an angle. Do all these excuses because I love Obama and I think it's worthwhile for people on both sides. It's just imagine their favorite person. This is what just to see who can at least understand how the other people feel. I think it's incumbent upon us to try to at least understand how they feel and quite often when I run transgressions through the Obama tests. Yeah I understand how you feel if it's one thing if it's all the things Obama would no longer have been my favorite a person would even yours if all of the things are transferred onto him. I don't know man. I like them. So many he's fucking vocally against gay gay marriage which he could not have been more on the wrong side of that my opinion I still like the guy now is like well. He doesn't not enough other stuff. I agree with that. I'm going to standby him so I know what it's like to compromise your own morals because there's another aspect of the person you're willing to go along with. I think we all do it. I mean look at you. You work with me and got some wretched sides shrill. I want I don't WanNa leave you jerry. But you're probably smart to stay out of this. Okay can I ask you. I'm confused by this. So the rule as we now know it as you can only serve two terms as president but two consecutive consecutive terms correct. So the rule is you can serve two terms. They do not have to be consecutive. And you can serve two years of someone else's presidency if you inherit the press you ten if you this. This doesn't come until after. FDR served four terms. They amend the Constitution to basically say your cabinet two terms plus two of an inherited term right before that there are no rules on this so is he's the longest serving president longest serving president was elected four four times but then he dies just four months into his fourth term and the man who takes over for him Mary. Truman is probably less prepared to become president than any any other man in history really during Truman's eighty two days as vice president he only meets FDR twice. He never steps foot in the map room. Where the war is being planned? He's not briefed on the atomic bomb. He doesn't mean a single foreign leader or get a single intelligence briefing. He's basically just out socializing and he's GonNa come in and decide whether or not to drop two atomic bombs so April twelfth nineteen forty five. He gets a call that he needs to come over to the White House and he thinks he's in trouble and about to get berated by the president so several hours later he gets the White House. Eleanor Russell puts her hand on his shoulder. Says Harry the president is dead and he says is there anything I can do into says No. Is there anything I can do for you for your the one in trouble now now. Oh so what is. Truman spent his first five days doing going into the map room and figuring out what the hell is going on with the war. I nine months. He ends the war shapes. The postwar order has to figure out Stalin has to deal with Churchill has to contemplate moving a million men from the European Theater to the Asian Pacific the Civic Theatre and he has one of the most remarkable presidencies in history. Yeah Wow did he. Rise to the occasion He more than any other. Were there any universal qualities of the folks that did rise to the occasion in university qualities. That got people do a Shitty job so I think there are two things. There were the circumstances of the moment and the personality polity of the man and in the case of Harry Truman. Both those things converge. You had an incredibly important moment that meant the FDR men who we're a different breed than the truman felt like the future and the fate of the world rested. On Harry Truman success and they were determined to make him success to help him. So you compare. And contrast past that with Lyndon Johnson who inherited Kennedy's foreign policy team who didn't think the future of the world rested on Lyndon Johnson thought he was basically a Bumpkin from you know Texas Mocked him behind his back antagonized him behind his back and in many respects did a lot of things to undermine him and Ford Him. So without doc inherited men to advise him on how to shape the Cold War policy. He completely fumbled Vietnam but Johnson's at fault because he didn't he wasn't able to demonstrate the same level of courage on Vietnam that he did on civil rights. So I'm getting a very one-sided view of Lyndon B Johnson Carol version and from from what I'm learning I'm on book number four. I mean just a piece shit and a lot of waste stole every election he quote one. enriched himself beyond measure. You're through his political ties Just the full on conman in ways that did rise to the level of president Joy Jaded that sense of him or is that a pretty accurate summation I think that's right but I also think that the the reasons that made Lyndon Johnson so despicable are the things that made him an asset to shepherd through the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five. I remember interviewing George H W Bush before he died for the book and his view on Lyndon Johnson is had Kennedy not been assassinated. You wouldn't have had such sweeping civil rights legislation sixties. Because you needed a you you know southerner with that Texan Twang. who had a track record with the segregationist who kind of looked the part of the people who were on the wrong side of history? Yes well that's how I explain Howard Stern and his help with the gay rights movement is like you didn't need another far leftie liberal like me saying allow gay marriage. You needed the dude who actually spoke to the dudes that might not have been in favor of that. Okay what does win the week mean so. This is another sort of things that that I've talked to Adam. Grant about one is helping me find. Worry time okay so I mentioned to both of you. I worry about everything so he told me to schedule a worry time. I have three ways that ideal with worry time where I stood on things that I'm incredibly unpleasant to be around. I sit in the bathtub. I go to the gym and I read read history but the other thing is I found that I was having a really hard time letting things roll off my shoulder right. You know I'd be worried about something or stressed about something and I would just stew on it and harp on it and so and have some conversations with Adam about this and he encouraged me to find a mechanism that worked for me so I decided that that I would treat the year like fifty to best of seven series fifty two weeks a year seven days a week and I won the week if I went to lead happier than I woke up. Four out of the seven days the reason I like this mechanisms. I'm a competitive person. I like sports analogy worked for me but the other reason I liked it is it allowed me to have some bad days. Yeah and so like if the day was just complete shit zero one and I'm going to come back and I'm going to win the next. My wife and I argue. You Bet this because she she is very strong opinions about how I should define winning the day. All I care about is what happens when the Buzzer goes off. It's a bad day all the way up until like eleven fifty and I can pull something off to make me happier than when I woke up. I win the day. Twelve behind the ARC hell L.. Mary shot a basket. Yeah what's your handbag of tools. That can turn your day around. Do you have a a few. So I have a handful and it depends on mm-hmm. What's causing me? Anxiety sometimes physical rigor so. If I'm angry you know the gym really helps you know if I'm sad about something turning my phone off and just spending time with my three daughters the easiest way to cheer myself up sometimes binge eating jelly beans like it. Just it just makes me feel like I can eat my feelings but if I'm upset that I'm gaining weight it counterproductive and also your narrative self will be happy with those first two decisions and and not so pleased with the third but you have three daughters three daughters How old are they five and a half three and a half and six months? Oh my God you're in the thick of it You WanNa hear something wild. What about the Middle One? When writing accidental presidents I got stuck on the James Garfield Chester Arthur chapter and we couldn't think of a middle name and I was sitting at our dining room table table with a stack of outdated books from the eighteen hundreds And I said my work you know what let's just call her Garfield is After James Garfield Oh I love it. That's fantastic so just you collect locks of presidential Harem so a word is one be procured. How many blocks Fox do you have A? When did it start? So it's a small ecosystem of historic hair collectors. So what a convention that would be they. Actually I will say that the people that I've encountered who collect presidential hair talking. I don't believe Campbell's should i. Not Deal with this interview. So I have George Washington George Washington no Yup. I have two strands of William Henry. Harrison's hair taken off his head while his body lay in rest in the East Room. I have six strands of Abraham Lincoln's hair from the native assassination Ronald Reagan. I Have Dwight Eisenhower. Have John Adams lab in active negotiations for Andrew Jackson. Oh my God active negotiate. So where are these broke. I have to mention. There's only like nine people in this chat room that are trading these things but are there hundred thousand people in their mom's basement to another level. Well what's the most so you've spent on a locker here. Here's where it also gets complicated. I have a rule with my wife where I'm not allowed to spend money on hair. Oh with my dealer I I I over pay presidential autographs and get the hair as a kickback. ooh Okay. So what's the most you spent for an Autograph Wink Wink. I would say okay that the most I hope this is I want to knock me out of my. I mean you can run up a bill of like five grand on here okay. 'cause it's not create I was it's a lack of George Washington's hundred million because what you're sitting on is Cloning your basement becomes an option interesting about the cloning. If it's not a hair follicle then you're limited in what you can do with it. You can only bringing back. Do you have any follow because the Harrison follicles and one of the strands of Lincoln follicle. Oh my you could bring back Abraham Lincoln. You could find out if if this Lincoln. Oh more more more finale forfeit Marvan's then he had this so they say Lincoln can have this Genetic Disease Marfan which I've diagnosed that I have in basically telltale signs are like really gangly in tall and gaunt and and Your particular in. What would it tends to do is you? You'RE A or two blows up so they say he would have died very young even had he not been shot. So what you could do is in your basement. You could bring one to full term. You could grow Abraham Lincoln for like eight years of Sivas Aorta would blow up to find out true but did they have a cure for Marvin's because then we could apply to the new Abra. Once we talked about it on the podcast I got a lot of stones read about it and one person was like you definitely have it. AWW freaked out to look it up. There are treatments. Yeah and there's levels of how bad you can have it so in any way. Can we publicly put out a request for for Obama's hair enjoy living president. So this is I get asked this question a lot about president trump just because Famous hair and my my standard under a bumper sticker answers. I don't collect the hair of the living. Oh that's mine but it's complicated question. I would have to Zeh that people in history had to pronounce proclaim rather I do not collect the hair of the living before you got if you were to come over to my apartment the hair when we come over to you didn't want to be presumptively. The hair would be the weirdest thing that you encountered. But you you would remember it more than anything else for sure display so also an interesting question I in the providence of hair is very important so when you take it to get framed I have attached to ribbons and you can authenticate them. Because for most of the nineteenth century people didn't ask for autographs they asked for locks of hair. The people who write letters to the president saying I have a lock of your hair. The president would cut a lock attached with wax to the papers. You test the age of the residue of the wax with the age of the residue to do with paper with. What's on the hair? That's part of how you authenticate it but you can never let the hair leave your site. So when it's on the ribbon you take it to the frame store you have to sort of hang out there obsessively passively and I typically will video transfer of the hair as further documentation that the hair didn't lose. Its provident there's there's so many red flags here if I if I worked at a like a walk in frame bridge in I wanted a piece of hair frame memorial like. I don't know that I'm I'm want to deal with this person a second. I'm sorry you you would like to fill me the entire time I do this. I mean God bless the people that have gone along with this really cool I kinda I wanNA start getting into the secondary auxiliary hair less people wanted some of my hair. I've plenty of it. Oh yeah he'll offer that to some of those presidents were just grabbing in a little tougher off of their dog and sending. It'd be pulling strands of hair out all day. Maybe that's why many of these presidents were balding is in. How're you're like how do you have? Eisenhower's hair was bald right. Pubic hair netted. Oh don't you dare you get a little hair around his ears. Oh I go to your hair. Extra exclusive on a balls guy. This is how stupid humans are head hairs. Great let's do it your your hair. Oh my God I know over my dead body care is all saying is. Let's Jared thank you so much for coming. It was such a pleasure in everybody. Read accidental presidents. It's fantastic and it's Endlessly Fascinating These eight bows that ended up sitting in the Oval Office. Some of them turned out not to be Bozos. Thank you guys so much and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soul mate Monica Batman and so I was just telling a story I knew someone who was a writer on entourage he wrote in episode of the show and then there was a table read in then one of the higher ups who had been a part of creating the show who is very New York called him into his office and he goes he goes fuck Mike. What the fuck you sort of seen in fucking juries Deli they focus needed king in us Pew Janas Almost pugh? Okay but Woah calm view things one. I think that joke only works for people who live in Los Angeles would certainly does. Because there's two different Delis Delis. Let's just start there Jerry's famous deli. That's in the name. I didn't add the word famous. It's called Jerry's famous deli four or five locations beautiful place to get a sandwich. Then there's cantors in downtown Hollywood which is more historic right. Yeah but this but the the stakes of which the difference in the scene to this person were at said in Jerry's versus Kanter was as if you said that Jesus was born and Tokyo. You know it was like it just work. Funny was I gonNA say well. There was a tragedy yesterday. It's just so tragic. It's horrible. Kobe Bryant Yes oh five days ago yeah certain public debts have this like massive resonance with people agree. And I think there's more than one variable at place someone says yes. How well known? Are they nobly. But then there's also in my lifetime like the John Candy died and that was so heartbreaking because as a kid he was just the number one yet at the same time you were like yeah he had had a heart attack and economy. You feel like that seen within the realm of possibility an even Belushi. It's like yeah well. He partied really hard. And that. But someone who's like a physical specimen really eats perfectly and trains and all these things. You're like well that person's should make it. He has one hundred so it feels more untimely. I think I yeah I know I agree and I thought the same but then there's this third component and this is what I was. I guess complaining about today today I got a little pushback from you appropriately so but I started getting all these texts from people going like no more helicopter rights and when I say all these people like five people told okay. I can't right now Hambur I think probably because of my Brad Pitt. Experience recently was on Ellen. I wrote in a helicopter with Brad but some some people yelled at me and I thought okay well I. I was just defensive like oh I want to ride in the helicopter when I want to because this tragedy happened doesn't mean I can't right now so I thought I had that thought okay they ha and then secondly I was like you know this is the thing is it hurts. It shouldn't happen. It's tragic and feels preventable. It feels preventable. Yeah Yeah right but had he died in a car accident. You'd have gone like we'll know people have to drive. Well that's what I said. Yeah that's your point. That is exactly my point but I would argue argue. Here's a guy who flew to every single L A basketball game and a helicopter. There's nothing to say. That had he been in a car driving in that heavy traffic ah Simpson. He wouldn't have been killed ten years ago if he didn't find helicopters. It's just hard to know and we just really want. We don't ever want to be hurt like that again or experience a tragedy like that against against we just want to remove anything that could lead to that. But I don't think it's grounded in a ton of actual threat level to people's lives. I I think this is like me with exactly that sure. We'll know it's a risk. I'm willing to take. Yeah and somebody will be like. Oh that's not a risk you should be willing to pay A. Yeah just you know what'll happen if I die on motorcycle. People be like you'll be mad. Let me let me for Dine Motorcycle. Didn't have to ride a motorcycle and I understand that I do but I have to write. I feel like I want my experience about that. You don't have to you not to not to not to exist but yes the experience I wanNa have on planet earth thing. It's my experience I get to have and I get to pick and you do too is. I wanted to involve motorcycles. I understand you want want to involve high flying but high fine without a helmet is my choice and I was a teenager nature so I had no one and I still have no one so also this all leads to I stand corrected on a few fact checks ago. We had a debate about how important apparent is versus a single personal world. One eighty well yesterday when I was careening about all this. Oh my God hounded. By the fact children right repacked that there are other people who are hitched onto his life life who do depend on him emotionally and all of these ways I mean which is why this death also another reason why it affected the people so much is a lot of people were emotionally tied to him. Sports Figures Hapoel. You've been on emotional journeys with Kobe Bryant. Right whether you're a teenager yeah right out of high school whether you're a fan of La and you had the elation of his victories and shared in his victories or you any. You're of fan of any other sports sports team that he destroyed which he did so he's a part of heartbreak. You've had an sports really do bring people together and it builds a community and he's he's what about the helm of that. I mean it is so deep in the emotional roots. He has to so many people but the children. It just feels like Oh. Oh it's just so sad to think that they don't have him and I was like. Oh my God if it was a single person in a helicopter. Of course it'd be sad but it wouldn't be this. I mean also look. This is also compounded by the fact that there were kids on that helicopter. That's is just. I was trying to imagine that to. What is it like to have your family member on that helicopter and then one of the people in the helicopter is like sucking sucking up all the focus of this? If you're one of the other yes and I don't I don't know I don't know whether that makes it worse or less bad. I don't know now if you're like I lost someone and then also the world I don't know but I just kept thinking well either a lot of other people in the helicopter and I don't know who they are. I don't know you know what I'm saying. They're not a headline line. But what I was GONNA say is high flying without a helmet when I was a teenager and I didn't have any attachments events. We my parents of course but no one depending on me and so you know you have to ride a motorcycle in life you say and I and that's fine nine. I think everyone in your life knows that about you but you have to factor in when you have people who need you. Oh by the way it's changed changed everything. which is I used to ride? I'm not naive a recognize it has an exponential lethal factor to it than say broken yoga. That your thing and in the past I would say because I personally don't subscribe to measuring the life by by its longevity. I think There are lots of people that died young. That had much bigger than a bunch of people that made wro- really longtime whatever so I've always thought like okay. If if I die in a motorcycle accident I will have died doing something I was loving doing in that moment and I'm not here no more but I had had the perfect experience while I was here like to me. It's not tragic because a I'm not around to mourn my own death but knowing there are now people that would be around two more in my death obviously makes it much more complicated than it is really sad. This is offensive to anyone. But I I. This is my hobby is I play. Devil's advocate my had as my hobby and so I'm like I'm aware of the gravity of it and then another part of my brain goes it's. It's a little shocking more people of that caliber. Don't die more often like it. Felt like a longtime. Does that make any sense. Hey Google how. Many deaths are there in the United States of America annually on the Website Medical News today dot com they say according to the Centers for Disease Control and prevention there were two million eight hundred thirteen thousand five hundred three registered deaths in the United States in twenty seventeen the that I guess what I'm saying is a couple of million people. Die Is all ties into my new obsession. Whitney Houston Elliott obsessed with Whitney as of recently. I'm obsessed with Whitney. Yeah like six six days ago Chris and went to bed early and I sat on my ipad pat in bed and watch the showtime dot documentary which I loved I loved. I was heartbroken. I wanted to take a time machine. Gene don't worry. I'm still going back to your grandma. But second stop is to rescue her ask you. I know no but in my mind they could. It's so heartbreaking. Choose so talented and I could see this enormous duality. She was juggling. And it's so hard having having so many people are juggling a duality anyways so kobe is in the realm of like Whitney Houston. So I'm just saying it shouldn't feel as shocking as it does when it happens because because two million people a year die in the country so naturally it's going to be some of the famous people. Does that make more sense. No it's because it's because these people koby definitely kind of being like the shining example of this they feel other-worldly principal. They like real god-like way may have been given something very very special that just most humans on Earth Ninety nine percent Senate. Humans can't achieve even if they work even if they did everything that he did. He's just special and just like Whitney's special exact same way and it feels like. Oh Oh my God if those people can perish of makes you feel a little bit. That's a good point. That's a good point. Could this be a three part art. Fact check because I now want explore another thing. That was happening to me last night. So then we decided to watch the boy Mir Max just so excited that it was is made by Miramax the Miramax documentary from two thousand eighteen about Whitney. There's so much footage of the mom saying that God gave her that ability and God gave her that and God gets in many times throughout the documentary. She's being reminded that God gave her that talent and I was getting so triggered knowing knowing my baggage. I'm like here. This girl has worked her fucking ass off for sixteen years to do what she can do. Endless practice understands stands music all these different factors and she's got to act like no. Someone touched her shoulder. That's not the truth. It is the truth a little bit because is it yeah. I'm not I'm not saying it's God or not but if forty five people did exactly the everything Whitney Houston did. She'd be the only one sounding like that. Still Forty five million people. I'd say honest. She there there are some people who mark are given gift will she she has. She has some physiological aptitude to sound the way she did. Yeah and I guess. You can't take it credit for her genetics but her mom was an amazing singer and she really grew up like singing. Non Stop The ten thousand hours. Thank you know at at least if you believe that book at our at least persuasive I don't think it's buying areas either. What he's saying in the book or not but yeah he's a no of the World Class Symphony Musicians? It really can be traced immediately to how much they practice. I think there's a combination ours is massively. The important and working hard is and I think you can be brilliant by hard work But this is sort of circling back to our genius conversation. Ah There are certain people on Earth who are above that. Ah It's genetics. It's whatever you can call it. You'RE GONNA scientific way by calling it. Genetics people say God. And whatever you WANNA believe leave but there's something extra and I do think when I think about those people I think of it. A little more spiritually than science. I mean I think she sings better than anyone. That's ever Sung. Yeah that was being bandied about a lot a- and then and then even kristen was saying it again I always kind of deferred to her. I don't really know technically whether someone's greater now. I think she's an incredible singer. But I was thinking like really really like better than Aretha Franklin to me Aretha Franklin. I'm like Oh my God it's like. There's a fucking volcano. I've never heard all Mike Mike. God I love Aretha Franklin in Blues Brothers when she sings behind the register beyond say nine here one plus one by I beyond saying I'm like that's as good as a human can sing magazine and it's me and you. ooh That's Oh okay all right anyway. Okay jared cone. Sweet jared comb. We loved him really loved him. Yeah and he was so informed and he's he's kind of like Ronin where he was to talk about one thing but by God could. I've talked to him about like eleven different topics for full episodes definitely seeing them. Another genius Adam. Grant a connector. Actually not a connector here but he knows him and I want to have a public ceremony. Remarried Doctor Eric. Topol and Adam Grant ooh four way weird. Oh three husbands anyway. We Love Atom. We love jared red. Love you guys okay. So you said because he was staying at the w hotel right and you said that they tell people. It's adult hotel when I checked him they did. Yeah that's Funny League because I didn't do my due diligence. I was going to call them and see if they set it. They don't it's not on the website or anything But but it doesn't say it on. The website has tons of pictures. That if you're looking for fucking probably would know not to book I was GonNa say if I were you imposing using a I would call up and go like high six small children. Is this a good hotel for us to stay in to see what they say like no. That's true is a bad hotel. Tell for you and your six kids that is true but he made it sound like. They said that a pond checking in they are calling making reservations. They'd tell you up front or they didn't tell me up front up. They said it's going to be loud tonight. You need to know. The Friday nights are allowed here. I think I mean they. They have to warn because I'm assuming they just deal with calls all night long to the front desk like what the fuck is going on now. And they're like this is not a family hotel get over we told us the condoms in the minibar. The sex kit it. Okay so I said that. I thought that jared was our second Rhode scholar and you thought Third I did. And you're right. Oh good. Who is the third? Ronin was uh-huh and Eric Garcetti. Oh fuck right right right and there might have been more but I looked through. The website is taking a long time so I did a glass. The only those three okay. So the book that got him into presidents when he was young is called. The buck stops. Here it's by Alex Berenson or Pro Vinson and You can get that book if you search for it is imprint it but it's not you know everywhere get it's limited dish. Oh you signed copy. I'd love your new home at one point. You said that you would imagine. Imagine that eighty percent of the country doesn't lean super far left or super far right right. So is this like so hard to get an actual number on that. Obviously as you know Ooh but currently from base his guys not like Republicans who voted for him but title are staunchly supportive of him around thirty to thirty five percent of the country. That's a thought right-leaning group we just talked. What about this the other day I was saying I kind of disagree that I thought that there were a ton of people that are are his base? That are that were prior to him. Probably apolitical but just a difference of opinion. You and I have. No people voted for him. who were who were? Maybe a political but his base is way more than people who voted threatening these are people that are doing the rallies that are like. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah you and I'm I'm saying that I think my hunch is that many of those people don't have Alva- political policy that they believe in. They don't have a platform that they agree with the liked that representative they like Donald Trump. Yeah I mean what he represents first though is very far right. His rhetoric is very well what he does but his rhetoric is so in ways. He's he's very far right and then another ways. He's not far right at all. Like the fact that he wanted Nafta Redone as been conventionally a left position -sition the tariff wars very not encouraged on the right. So he does he has some that are but it's all all in opposition to what the Democrats have been doing. Let's put it this way. I think if he said he was pro choice I don't think he loses any of his base like the people who love him and where his hats. I don't think him making a decision to be pro choice that he loses any of those followers. So what I'm saying is that I think a lot of them aren't necessarily so issue issue minded as much as they identify with whatever message he's saying they relate to him and they they feel like he has their interests in mind which could largely be political but if he said I think we should be really inclusive he'd lose people. Yeah so but being Zena phobic isn't really a political political position it can have some. It can have some downstream stuff. But I'm just saying you look at the conventional tenants of the left and the right. Yeah I mean the conventional tenants are gone. I mean that is the truth. Now all of its all muddled up now but if you look at the current state of what it means to to be extremely left or extremely right. We'll the example I'd give on our side of the street would be there. Were a bunch of bunch of people people even gay and Lesbian folks. That loved Obama in voted for him and he was outwardly against gay marriage in so somehow his is being was transcending his policy And I on that. Yeah and I just like. He represented something he represented. Hope hope in he He represented a quality and he represented all these things that were the real pillars and then there was others. There was policy stuff but most people what they loved about. Obama wasn't his centrist. Take on the economy or his. They loved Obama for sure. I mean I think Obama's at a little different in a couple of ways one. It wasn't like gay marriage was already legal and then he was like I'm not really for it If that were the case I I don't think he would have what he had amount of followers and if he was actively going against something that was already existing he was just he was going with something that was already existing he. It wasn't like standing up for something new which then he did do of course and I. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I feel that since Obama the country like these extreme left and rights I mean there was some tiny percentage of course always always has been but but it's grown so much since then we didn't have Bernie's then right I mean I think it's all I oh I think it will. I think it goes back to the point. I was making that you originally brought up. which is I just think that because of social media the people that are saying the most outrageous things are now finding finding their voice and headlines of major publications but it is more than that we see it reflected in our candidates now and their support? There's a port like Bernie as a lot of support more than anyone support there. There as far as Democrats go very left on the side side. Oh Yeah Democrats so you know. I think these have grown I really do. I think these extremes have grown. I think they've grown too. Yeah I still think though that. It's misleading. I think I think way more people are in the middle middle. Yeah anyhow okay he is. So there's been four impeachments and he said Andrew Johnson Clinton and trump. But he didn't say Nixon but I think as we had just talked about Nixon so maybe he just and we'll also be because he resigned before there was a Senate hearing. He resigned before he was removed but he was on. He was impeached by the the house. And then he resigned before the Senate then tried the case so. I don't doesn't seem like a half impeachment or no. Trump is an impeached president right forever. And then if whether he's removed or not okay he wanted me to check to that sort of Stand by on the fact that people who collect presidential hair are nor more cool. But I couldn't really find any informat join chat Out Room One pitcher of one man. He semi normal head is hard to know. We'll look at domer- he looked like a boy next door or Had bundy that's probably mean. WHO's the handsome on an Theodore von ranges? From helped him uh-huh he'd have crutches. Shits hang up by the beach. I also think probably wouldn't have because wanting can't be pressured to your also very afraid of strangers in general. I'm skeptical like this person. Might be trying to swindle me. And in that case he would be yeah so he can take his scratches interest. Got fucking childhoods and it's also it's so funny like I WanNa get into you know what I'm still going to say which means as long as I look forward to those things so like I want them to want them so bad that manifested them but yes someone who's he's trying to take advantage of someone. I pray that they cross my path. I now I know. Isn't it fucked up. Why would you WANNA be part anything like that because you fell taken advantage embarrassingly? You've taken advantage of so you wanna be on top of the sheriff. Yeah maybe under all visit Colonel of nicest which is I feel capable of defending myself against those people and I want to defeat them before they can do it to people that are vulnerable. It's a nice twist. I think it's true. I think it's all about my ma. I think it's all protecting my mom being you know not being able to intervene and mm protect my mom for life made me want to intervene and protect. Yeah I think that's definitely a factor but I think the molesting is a big factor. I think there's a lot of things. Sure come from it okay. It did. Did Lincoln Have Marfan. I don't like this go. Sounds like I'm talking about your. I know I know. I know the President Lincoln Abraham. But we know you're where we know Lincoln Shepherd I don't think she's too young to show the signed now. She is a doozy but her. She's very strong. People are Kinda tough well. Okay based on Lincoln's unusual physical appearance. Dr Abraham Gordon proposed Dr Abraham. We can't have an Abraham investigating Abraham Lincoln. It's confusing Dr Abraham Winkler Abraham Gordon. Fine Dr Gordon again. Thank you Dr Gordon Dr. A Gordon proposed in nineteen sixty two that Lincoln had Marfan Syndrome testing. Lincoln's DNA for Marfan Syndrome was completed in the ninety S. But such a Oh but such a test was not performed performed. What I mean I was so stupid? Why would they put this sign? I once saw on the Detroit River. It said don't tire boats to the sign. I don't know if I imagine it. I don't think I imagined it. I think even have a photograph. There was a sign on the Bank of the river that Said said. Don't tie off boats to the sign. Maybe there was nine other like sign on the other side that I couldn't read but I want to say it was with Ken Kennedy. We're both like what. What kind of like Appropriations Asians Bill? Was this someone that maybe this Dick was doing something. We wasn't at least from our side. The stick was only holding a sign that sued your boat off to the sign. Wow so he may have had it. Is I guess what people are saying but yeah yeah all these say may have so no one knows for sure if he had it well. Let's get let's get that Herod Saharan. I guess they gotTa have the follicle sometimes. Yeah he has the follicle the he could he could blow the lid off this case. Holly Yep Yep Yep she would tell people real quick I emailed Dr Topol full about. Oh well everyone knows about the personal problem the peeing. That conversation came back up in my life and I think that it may have been a seizure uh-huh and then I had the lab really. Don't take it seriously like you don't love me. I love you I care about your safety me seriously. Respect me respect my seizure. I listen I love you I respect you care about you. I want you to Be Safe You you pee the bed. It's not a big deal and it really really scared you and I think it just might use might appeared the bed. Okay if I just peed. That would be one thing but there were so many other factors blind your bump on your head. I was in severe back pain right. But you don't like one point but you had been in severe back pain like three other other Times Prior to the pee in your pants in life. I've had pulled since very specific though great. I just think that it might be coincidental. Incidental that those things overlapped. Can you have a history of back pain. You don't have a history of pain. The bed never paid the bed right but you do have a history of back pain into something new happen. which is you scored it in the sheets and I did and then the incredibly disoriented? I don't remember that part. Oh Oh I mean I say it. It's said every time I talked to tapes tapes Yes I was incredibly disoriented when I woke up and August. I interpreted that as like you woke up. And you're confused. Why was it wet in your bed? I was I was. I was disoriented beyond like if I feed the bed tonight woke up. Okay okay sure okay and then I had a little bump on my head and then I had really bad back pain and then which this part I wrote off but now I'm coming back to I went to the doctor. They today or analysis. Nothing they didn't do anything else and they didn't even do blood work which is a little weird and and They gave me a steroid shot. which helped with the back pain but then the next day my legs were so sore like Embel- like I had run a marathon or something really really fatigued and I thought that was. Maybe because I got the steroid shots in my legs were like compensating for the back pain or something. I just sort of wrote that part off. Yeah but then I was on a date and this all came up yep and this suitor had recently had a seizure so then I was telling him about this ping thing and it was kind of saying it in like. Oh I'm just HYPOCHONDRIAC. I have all these things and I had this and he was like. Oh my God. Is there no resolution to this story and I said no and he was like Oh my God odd like that is really scary and I was like yeah I mean I could. I could have been like a stroke. Or maybe even a seizure and he was like well. I really don't want to scare you. But the muscle pain. The fatigue is like is really common after seizures and I had that I had like really really bad Muslims because your muscles are contracting interesting so much so that I emailed doctor Eric Topol. 'cause I was panicked. Yes and you thought that was insane that I yeah that you're learning learning the lines a little bit of his his generosity and kindness. We're going to ask him to treat you as a patient body. Scans on us that. Ask Your friend my friend I want it. But that's my own hangups. All I can really I would feel like I was in an imposition by. Send him that. Email me and I would see my drag and like And so it's all me I. I don't really think that you were wrong for for doing it I did. It just gave me a little bit lower the like the chills that I would be nervous to do that. Yeah I don't regret it but that goes along with my like which is a character defect not asking for help so I'm not saying that you're wrong in that I'm right. I'm saying I personally would have a hard time. I'm doing that. I'm GONNA say something you're not GonNa like it all but here it comes Really beautiful girls. Think the world's nicer than it is because when they go in places. The people are very excited to look at them and talk to them and give them their coffee. And Yeah I bet doctor Eric Topol love getting an email email from you. You're very cute and fun. And when I'm an older man yeah I'll probably love it. If a thirty two year old wants me to diagnose with without Luxy so I I'm just a big gangly dude so I hit him up. And I'm like a dog I got a problem with my ass. Even there's there's nothing about it that his realistic. You're a famous person if you will be right so excited to tell you. You have epilepsy but I would. I would like I like to think I would recognize that part of the reason they're willing to do it is because I'm famous which is another reason. I have to be ethical about it. And you as a hot chick need to be a little more ethical. Okay first of all thank Hugh and fuck you not thrill sure like I can see models having this problem but I'm not that so I don't fall into that category hop peace as- Chick Okay and dudes think that Monica doesn't which is fine. Monica doesn't have to ever think that but I mean every person we we know in our life is currently in love with that is a fact No that's not true at all but That's fine any. Do I feel glad that did I emailed. And now we're even closer to worry. By the way he posted some pictures of him playing with his ball and he called his girlfriend. Oh I love. You heard lease Maria's Levy. Maria's Adam Grant Maria's although although I'm I'm not even if we get married I'm not going to see him at all. You're going to be on the examination table fucking twelve times a day all right. What if in fact

president Adam Grant Monica Lewinsk- Mon Andrew Johnson Jared Cohen vice president Iran America Stanford Middle East Jack Kennedy DAX Shepard Condoleeza Rice State Department Connecticut Hillary Clinton Greens Gerry Cohen Valentine Abraham Hamm Lincoln
Jared Cohen

Experts on Expert with Dax Shepard

2:07:31 hr | 9 months ago

Jared Cohen

"Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert. I'm DAX Shepard. I'm joined by PAT on the campaign today. We have a really fun. Guess we really fell in love with this guy. He's he's Kinda joining the ranks you know. He's working his way into the Eric. Random grant actor category pillars the pillars of a now. Gerry Cohen is an American businessman. He's currently serving as the CEO of Jigsaw and Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He served as a member of the secretary of State's Policy Planning Staff and as an advisor to Condoleeza Rice and later Hillary Clinton he has an amazing book called Accidental Presidents Eight men who changed America Arca. We talked a bunch about that. He also has the books the new digital age children of Jihad in one hundred days of silence also a reminder that Valentine's Day is approaching which means Monica ingests. Love Boys Boys Boys Boys Boys Spice Choice Blake Bites. Johnny of this podcast is one third is fascinating is all the roundup dinner table chat about the challenges and stuff going on. It's going to be a Damn Barn Bernard. Yeah the challenges that we get at the end of each episode where their assignments for us to complete have been fascinated in your dance card has been full despoil that it's changed my life. theon has changed my life. Maybe you'll do. Monica loves everything. In my like in three years you'll be see the Dalai Lama. Oh God it's the dream. The dream will please enjoy Jared Cohen. We are supported by athletic. Greens this is one of the easiest. These things to talk to you about because I literally do it every morning. Sometimes they even do it twice a day it makes me feel turbocharged at grains is a daily all in one health. Drink was was seventy-five vitamins minerals and whole foods. Sourced ingredients that. Make it easier for you to get comprehensive nutrition without the need for multiple pills powders or complex complex routines. It's the most complete supplement for a better you. Now let me tell you some of the things that's got Monica. Helmi buckle up your slacks okay. PREBIOTICS probiotics probiotics digestive enzymes adapt degen superfoods and morale. We're trying to get all those things every day and it's tastes delicious because it's got some Spirulina arleen and athletic. Greens gives you your one stop shop to help support. Your body's natural needs across five critical areas of health including energy immunity gut health hormonal and neural support and healthy aging. These are all things that we would all like to achieve. Now whether you're taking steps towards a healthier your lifestyle or you're an athlete pushing for better performance Athletic Greens takes the guesswork out of everyday. Good health why not. Just try it jump over to athletic. Greens dot com slash DAX in claim my special offer. Twenty free travel packets valued at seventy nine dollars with your first purchase that's Athletic Greens. Greens dot com slash DAX. He's and where are you staying. The W like five minutes from here. Oh I like that place. I think they tell you when you check in there like be warned. This is an adult hotel. I got that vibe. Yeah and I kinda dig especially if I'm travelling like I'm up for seeing some shit. I told Monica this story. I was at the Mandarin Oriental. which is lovely and middle middle of the afternoon two PM? I start hearing Of fucking orgy. A BONA FIDE orgy next to my room at first. I'm like Oh someone's watching pornography really really loud but then it's going on and on and on and then I'm like I don't think that's a pornography walked out in my hallway could hear it clear as day under the thing Wa accents became a whole investigation. I had for the rest of the trip. And then I ended up meeting the two gals that were running that room at the elevator. They said Oh where we keeping you up. And I'm like no. It's great on the pedal to the. It wasn't listening jared. Welcome to armchair expert. Thank you happy to be here. Yeah we have mutual friends. Mutual Friends Ashton in Manila. Adam Grant. Monica Lewinsk- Monica Lewinsky. Two of them are podcast. Friends that we've met but jared what's what's interesting scenes. We're going to talk to you about your book accidental presidents which I have read a good deal of and I really really really liking. It's super fascinating topic. But yet yet we could definitely do for hours on your other life is I think it makes it that much more interesting. That you've written this book. It would've been predicted right. Yeah I think anyone who knew me when I was a kid might have expected me to write a spokesman. There's not that many people that knew me when I was a kid because I grew up in a small town in Connecticut. Yeah so it seemed very random. Write a book about eight dead presidents to all the people I've worked with in tech and on foreign policy and business. Yes so just a real quick primer on. You is that you grew up in Connecticut. As you said and then you went to Stanford which gets Monica and I both engorge with our UNIFIL obsession this morning before you got here trying to figure out what is it. That fascinates us so much we still don't know anyways he went to Stanford. And then when you got out of Stamford Hanford unit up working for the State Department as an intern. Under Condoleeza Rice is that by while I was still at Stanford still at Stanford Okay and then. I'll just throw this in here. You you took a trip to. Iran spent four months there. So when I was in Grad school so I went straight from Stanford to Grad. School Rhodes scholar Monica Oxford. Yeah Yeah I'm loving this. Oh no you're you're a veritable James Bond for us who is obsessed with schools rules if you could have just squeezed semester into Harvard. I think he would both be nude in front of the our second Rhodes scholar right around. Heard Oh who who else. We've had a third but we won't chew up jared time in fact I think we've had three now which I don't even think I thought it was going to meet one in my life neatly much less okay. So while you're at Oxford you went to Iran when I was at Stanford I was obsessed with traveling to sub Saharan Africa. In one of my professors professor was worried that I was reckless. GonNa get myself killed. So he basically read me a sort of almost parental edict telling me to cool it down for a while. What what was your attraction to sub Saharan Africa trip that I took when I was younger to Tanzania and I self Healey and so sort of it started with a fascination with language and then when you spoke language you'd want to travel there and then it became an interest in conflict resolution and civil wars? And then I started traveling to civil wars and my professors just. I thought it was time to knock it off a little I looked at a map and said where else would I find incredibly interesting where people don't go and I wanted to go to Iran And it took me almost most eighteen trips to the Iranian embassy in London to convince them to give me a visa and I got it literally twelve hours before I got on the plane. So it's hard to get a visa to go there even back back then. It was hard now obviously today. Probably not the however many trips I don't think Kuranda not just because it really fascinates me and I have a armchair share speculation which is Iran is a lot of things right. You both have like this Theocracy on top of everything. But then you also have kind of progressive youth the Youth and highly educated women in general there for the Middle East right. So there's A. There's a lot of paradoxes. There aren't there yeah. It's a fascinating country. Just because our historic memory of the very revolutionary Islamic republic is very different than the reality of the population today and that became really evident to me. When I went there I went there to do a research project to interview? Opposition leaders got in some trouble with the government so they also told me knock it off. You'll notice a pattern here so I didn't WanNA leave the country so I started just hanging out with young people my own age Seagal made them tick and I got really captivated by this idea. That country of eighty million people has sixty seven percent of the population under the age of thirty thirty that I sort of started to view them as the real opposition. Sure and I was never interested in technology until I went to Iran and then I watched the way. These young people were using using technology to flirt and organize to go to parties and I realize the same tech that I used every single day they were using in novel ways that I never could have imagined and I sort of felt felt very strongly that one day that would take on a political dimension which ended up being the Arab spring. Yeah the the Green Revolution I in Iran and then subsequently the Arab spring throughout the region region is that two thousand nine thousand nine. Okay so you were an intern while still at Stanford but at some point you stay on under Hillary in the State Department correct. That's kind have kind of a rare thing to happen. I would assume do they got him or did they keep people most people. Don't stay on. It was very interesting going through a presidential transition compared imperative. Now it's probably less dramatic but at the time it seemed pretty dramatic. Yeah Bush to Obama Obama. You know there was a lot of baggage carried over. There were a lot of preconceived notions and yeah I like trying to survive. Tried to survive. uh-huh helped me understand because obviously I've never worked with the government very limited knowledge of how it even works but there are categories within the government that in theory at least a political right. Yeah I mean if you break down. There's obviously career civil servants Career Foreign Service and they're very apolitical. Although although I will note that the bumper stickers in the basement on the cars changed very dramatically as do the photos with important people officers which we call them you all did defense team for Oj where they went in there and put a bunch of pictures of him. A black folks. But there's also there's political appointments which are sort of more partisan in nature in the sense that you worked on the campaign you donate it to the campaign and you're maybe trying to execute a part of the platform or something exactly. Yeah there's a smaller category of political appointments which I was which is your brought in as a subject matter expert and in my case I was brought in because of an expertise on a counterterrorism on the Middle East right in all under the Veil Vale of Digital Future Right Social Media and the power of twitter and facebook and there wasn't really a thing at the State Department back then I mean it was kind of a side passionate. How should mine because I'd seen it in Iran I'd seen it in Lebanon? I'd seen it when I was living in Syria and Iraq and especially as the green revolution happened and then we got more evidence of how technology was infusing itself into the world I really wanted to create a portfolio and agenda that became part of foreign policies. Embrace civil of these new technologies a much less global aspect of this story is Jewish Yes that's correct so I guess if I'm Jewish and I think of the many different from countries that would love to host me. I'm not sure that some of the ones you just listed seem like the friendliest place was that your day to day experience or not. You find that like you know we're being and told the narrative and then once you got in there that people weren't really like or not I think I did what any normal Jewish kid from. I'm a small town in Connecticut would do. which is I went to your on so when you went there hit? He already said the statement we want to wipe Israel off the map. So when I was there to me was the the president but the the real person in charge of the country is Ali Khamenei the supreme leader in many He's an idea tola he's a grand ayatollah. Okay okay so those statements had already been said so you had a sense at least at least what the government felt about the state of Israel and perhaps Jewish people put large. Yeah but it was interesting. I went to Chabad services in in Iran. There are a lot of Jewish Iranians. Yeah I was there about twenty five thousand Jews. In Iran a number in Shiraz there's even the constitution mandates that there has to be Jewish member of parliament. But I get a kick out of this because obviously the Jewish person who ends up in parliament like doesn't think Israel has a right to exist conveniently not the most loyal of the tribe right right right right so one thing. That's interesting Monica is. He got into the hot water. A wall under Hillary because you called twitter personally in urge them not to do some scheduled maintenance so that the service would be up up and running as the two thousand nine Green Revolution was gaining released protests. I don't know if it will lead to. That and Obama was was made a statement. He was not a pleased about that. But then am I getting this right and then and then hillary basically said `I stand with Obama and I'm kinda stoked he did this. I didn't think I did anything wrong. I knew Jack Dorsey because one of things that I did when I worked at the State Department is I used to call up CEOS from Silicon Valley and say hey you wanna come with me like Iraq and Afghanistan and Co Dot Dot Juarez Mexico and. Let me show you all sort of crazy. Good that technology can do on the ground. If you can just get you a little more engaged so I was following the Iranian opposition on twitter and I saw one of them post that twitter was scheduling maintenance and it was gonna be in the middle of the night America time. which would be smack in the middle of the day Iran time and they were counting on twitter to get the word out about what was happening inside the country so just reached out to Jack? Dorsey and I said Hey. This would be really much better if you could do it at a time that was inconvenient for Americans and highly convenient for Iranians because it might make all the difference and then I went to bed. I don't see any problem with that. Thank you Monica. Yeah Well I. I'm just guessing. I don't know what the policy is but I think that Obama's point was the government doesn't lean on private business to execute their foreign policy. Is that roughly. The the guidance was there will be no meddling in the protest. I mean I I didn't think it was meddling and but some people did so i. I woke up the next morning to not pleasant barrage rush of messages and long emails with lots of important people on that and my name on the front page of the New York Times. I was GONNA say that makes your position quite public blick in at any point. Did you get nervous about a war or something crazy Not a fatwa just losing my job. Okay once more more immediate. Yeah Okay after all this government service jared then went to work for Google which was then called Google ideas and then Google ideas eventually. intially spun off. And then you founded jigsaw and you are the currency Oh you're the founder and CEO is right so am I understanding of Jigsaw and I'M GONNA be quoting at times from I think wire magazine. which is the goal of Jigsaw? Isn't to help realize all the best possibilities of the Internet but rather to limit all the shitty parts of it. Yeah I mean I like I like to think about it. As there's a bunch of problems that are destabilizing. The Internet that are inherently political in nature right disinformation state sponsored cyber attacks organized harassment. RATHMAN system attic. Trolling all the things. That just give us tons of anxiety and we try to look around the corner and figure out where all that's going and then we're at engineering company so we build bill products to try to address them one of the things. You guys obviously you guys are against indoctrinating extremists. Say That would be a topic that you're concerned about on the Internet. That's right like give me an example of a product that could help curb that so with Jigsaw. We have a very sort of firm methodology. How do things which is we forward? Deploy our people to the the most active places in the world where these problems are festering so when we decided we wanted to do something with the emergence of Isis to counter them online we sent a number of people to Iraq interview incarcerated Isis Fighters Isis defectors and to try to understand from them from the very people involved extremism how they use technology to recruit how technology technology was used to recruit them. What worked what didn't work and from that we came up with this concept that we call the redirect method where we identified roughly three to five thousand key words and phrases that people who are already radicalized are actively searching Ford? Try to take the next step and then rather than T. up ads on on display ads Edwards in video ads. That countered the narrative we teed up as looked like answers to those questions and then we built playlists in English and Arabic on Youtube that then redirected them to counter narratives. That's fascinating now. This is a total side. No but you're the perfect person. Have you watched. I am. Don't fuck with cats now. You absolutely have to. It's on Netflix. But to second version is a guy posts a video called one boy two cats he. He murders these two kittens. Maybe it's called one boy two kittens regardless it's horrific kills these two kittens in a in a vacuum seal back awful. It's awful. It's awful and then that mobilizes all these kind of Internet gumshoes that love cats and they go on this mission to find out WHO This guy is? And then then the story evolves in a way. You couldn't possibly imagine but much in this thing in in a couple of things I'm thinking of one one of them is. I really can't believe that we don't know who posts a video like how. How is that even possible? So that that dude uploaded that video we have license plates on our cars. How is it that you can exist in such anonymity? What are the pros and cons of correcting that? I mean it's just sheer volume. There's just so much content. I mean even look at the civil war in Syria you have by an order of magnitude more content. That's been uploaded to youtube then. There have been minutes in and the entire conflict which has been raging for nearly a decade. So just the sheer volume of all of this. It makes it very hard to do. Two things one prescreened content and to to figure out origin of content. Do you think is that. Would that technology even be possible when you buy a device. It has a licensed play and it doesn't matter how many times you beaming it across the world and then it goes to this site and Russia and back here that that somehow some license plate would always exist. I mean the Chinese. Do they do that. This there's a tension between the notion of free expression in control against batter illiberal uses of the Internet and Y- yeah there's lots of things that when we look at the American context of making ourselves safer making things more stable and making us more civil sound good until you start to sort of see that some of those things would be the same tactics used by repressive the misuse finding that balance. I mean there are some things that are irrefutably important for free expression. Some things that are era futilely important for preventing a total free for all that gray area in the middle that I think is not very well defined and where everybody kind and a fumbles around. It is interesting because I yeah. You're right it it all depends on what my reaction what story. I saw that afternoon so then there are other times where I am Mike. A huge proponent of privacy but then I'll watch the cat thing and I'm like no killed heads in a vacuum sealed bag we should be able to find you so yeah I guess it just it all always circles back to the same debates. We've been having about liberty in this country for three hundred years that we will now have on the Internet. So Jigsaw is very fascinating and that is how you met Adam Grant Correct Act. Yes I've known Adam now eight years and I just find him to be one of the he's like he should be everybody's iota he's part executive coach and when when he sort of giving me advice. I try to sneak in a little therapeutic. Please can you just help me. A state as well and he helped me come up with a very anxious person. I've been anxious person my whole life and I worry all the time I just worry constantly and do you think just bio chemically or. Did you have a chaotic childhood or very normal childhood but the hearing think of is you know. My Dad's a psychologist grandfather was a psychiatrist. My aunt is a is is a psychiatrist. My uncle's a psychiatrist. I think you know maybe the painters house has never painted. Yeah I mean. I was always analyzed as a very happy normal childhood but I was very twitchy twitch my is all the time to move my mouth it basically when I went to college disappeared and it never created social problems for me because I was good at sports growing up. But I should should've been like a total outcast and this is the eighties. It's one of these things that my whole you know up until I was eighteen years old and went to college. I thought it was going to be one of these things that would limit. Would I be able to do you and then I went to college and for some reason it went away was yours at all mine was very very governed by making things even my move throughout my body. So it'd be squint squint. My eyes move my neck and by the way the thing that's interesting and I'd be curious if you've encountered this also. The neurological urges haven't gone away. I'm still twitchy as I've ever been. I just have moved it to non-visible places in my body and right now I I try to work out but I have a twitch in my lower back so I'm running on the treadmill and I'm constantly twitching by lower back and I'm in excruciating pain. Okay but everybody can see it. Okay so you just move the muscle groups like once covered by clothes. Exactly lathwell ticks. He goes through this whole thing. He started smoking and they just they all went away and then I went back in my mind I was like Oh my God. That's that's when mine nine went away as I started smoking. I had this outlet for all this weird things. ID or just yeah. I don't know. Do you have to travel in pajamas. Also of course Sir now do you travel. I can't. I'm so uncomfortable when I have to travel in whether it's genes or suit. I try to travel in Pajama Ajami. Like close because of the twits Eunice. Oh Wow yeah and You've never saw any kind of medication for this now my sister she asked me about this not too long ago. Oh she said. I don't understand why it's not a big deal for you. That you like move this thing away from your face and I think that the not seeking sort uh other remedies for it and just Kinda managing it myself. In retrospect I should view it as more of a source of pride. Yeah anything else. Uh I think that would be self indulgent. But I suppose I've just done yeah. Is your sister older or younger. She's three years older and she will tell you that she's about ten times smarter than me. Well the thing about sisters is They will tell you the Goddamn truth won't because I had all these weird. OCD things one of them was. I had my fingertips. Tips had to be wet at all times or just not dry. I was. I didn't want him to be so. It's always just does dot in my tips of my fingers tongue. In one time I was in the car. There's an Francie. Also and my sister from the banks. Oh my God would you stop licking your fingers. It's so gross. I thought for sure I was doing it completely under the radar and she just totally blew me up and she was watching all of it. She knew all those tax. Yeah my sister's beef with me more. She just wants to make sure that when when somebody complements me that they know the Delta between okay all right now as a kid you had an obsession with presidents. Yeah I completely obsessed with President says a kid so starting at eight. My parents took me to a flea market and they bought me a bag. I give presidential campaign buttons. I looked them up. And these were worth like thousands and thousands of dollars until I realized that it said reproduction pointed but they did they give another the thing. which is they bought me? This book called the buck stops here. It's one of these rhyming books. One one page per president and my parents. They wanted to turn me into a precocious kid. They didn't realize they would. You have to have conversations about death with me and for about murder still remember some of the lines in that book. Thirty five is young John F and other president shot to death in I. May I remember when the Oliver Stone movie came out in the early nineties. We had a room downstairs in our house and I decided that I was going to try. Resolved the Kennedy assassination. So I had sort of thumb tacks string going shirt picture. I wouldn't let anybody in And spoiler I never solved often. Well did you have a theory that you thought you could stand behind like was it pointing to one person or I had pretty wacky Kyrie's you know basically when you're that young they bias towards whatever you read most recently. It was a weird obsession as a kid too. You know hyper collect the presidential buttons and Presidential Memorabilia and to obsess over these sort of eight moments in history where president died in office and somebody. You're random ended up as president. It's just a weird thing to spend my whole life Texas so even even in your early interest in presidents you are specifically interested trusted in the vice president's assume the command. Yeah and I think it's because I was sort of an obsessive compulsive. Kid I just fixated on this book that had these eight drop dead pages and you know maybe it was my parents reaction when reading it to me. I mean. There's a picture of McKinley. Keeled it over on one of them. It's not exactly kid appropriate. Well do you listen to Dan. Carlin and all okay. Do you know of his show. He's got a podcast called hard core history. It's probably the biggest history. PODCAST I've listened a few episodes but he had this great breakdown in one episode but he said the reason people gravitate towards conspiracy. Theories is that it's too scary to think that one idiot or two idiots can shape the course of history. It's a very scary notion when they're seven billion people so it's more comforting to think. Well it must have been a grand conspiracy with all these powerful elements involved. Somehow that makes the world less scary. Sorry do you think there was any of that burgling around with the JFK thing like you couldn't accept like wait. Some one idiot's changed history. I think there were a couple of things going going on with the JFK. Assassination one people were able to watch the assassination in motion because the footage to they saw the alleged assassin shot on live. TV Eh and this was the era of television. What's interesting about the other seven presidents who died in office sometimes it took a pretty lengthy period of time for the vice president to even find out that the president was dead so this was the first really kind of you know? FDR A little bit because of Radio but also everyone knew FDR was was going to die with Kennedy he was so young and vibrant. Nobody was expecting him. He was so polarizing as loved his Kennedy was. He was incredibly hated in parts of the country. So you have this highly polarizing figure. He was hated in Republican circles. He was deeply deeply disliked in the rust belt. There was a perception that his father Jack Kennedy had bought him the election ride ride and in fact. There's an interesting anecdote that a lot of people don't know when when Kennedy was president elect there was a disgruntled postal worker named Richard Pavlik. who was so angry? That Kennedy's father had purchased him the election that he sold all his belongings and use the money to buy a Green Buick in dynamite and then stock Kennedy all across the country and filled up his buick with that dynamite and tried to kill him as a suicide bomber. He was parked right outside of his home in West Palm Beach and decided not to to do it because he saw one of the Kennedy children so we followed him to church. Move the dynamite. In his pants were standing. Four feet from the president elect this hand in his pocket and his finger on the trigger. Ready to blow low himself up the president elect and everybody in the Church and he again decided not to do it because he saw some children out of the corner of his eye. This goes really hand strong with his own conscious Gillies was he only wanted to kill him And how was he discovered he had worked with a nondescript old postal worker and hit with sending him cryptic postcards to their tax postcards figured it out and alerted the secret service and he was pulled over for a a routine traffic stop in West Palm Beach. I don't know how that dynamite got my song frame up very creepy looking guy. What's interesting is even though you have eight presidents who died in office? There are another nineteen that almost and while. We're on the theme of sort of attempted assassinations yet when FDR was president-elect his his very first speech as president elect in Miami. He's sitting on the back of Agana. Buick I don't know what the deal was very trusted vehicle gives a two and a half minute speech speech and then an Italian immigrant named Zep. He's Gara fires five shots in fifteen seconds at him and the bullets would have killed president-elect Roosevelt but one hundred pound woman named Lillian in cross saw him pull the revolver out and smooth her purse from her left arm to her right arm and smacked the gun thwarting his aim saving FDR and saving the new deal. Wow well let's just digest slow down for a while cross yeah Monica Hundred Pounder Pounder. Oh my good- Monica. Do you think if you're in the situation that you would grab one of your hand but it depends on a handbag probably everything. Luckily she probably didn't have her favorite handbag with her. Stay tuned for more armchair. If you dare we we are supported by butcher box. The big game is just around the corner which means lots of good times with friends and lots of food snacking his half the fun I'd argue. It's probably ninety percent of the funder under me now. Butcher box has the best meat out there. High Quality Right to your house. All the meat is free of antibiotics and added hormones. Each box has nine and do eleven pounds of meat enough for twenty four individuals now. I'm now recently. Obsessed with Air France. Sell Good. I'm airframe chicken wings all the time I literally everyday Kim Kim believe how good they are and butcher box has free range organic chicken. They also have heritage pork. Wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar nitrate Free Bacon. They've got grass fed finished beef. It's all in the box it's delicious. It comes directly to your door. It's the highest quality meat around around for just six dollars a meal right now you can get free wings for Life Plus Twenty dollars off your first box. That's three pounds of wings in every box for the life of your subscription. Wow now listen. So that's three pounds of wings in every box for the life of your subscription plus twenty dollars off your first box just go oh to butcher box dot com slash DAX or use Promo Code Dax at checkout. That's butcher box dot com slash tax or use Promo Code box at checkout. We are supported by frame bridge. Monica's favorite place to prepare a gift for a loved one. Well when I well I have my new house but when I move in Nair Minnie's Frame Bridge to frame all my art. Oh yeah they make it super easy and affordable to frame your favorite things from art prints and posters to photo sitting on your phone owned by the way you should. You should frame some year like Matt Damon Posters and stuff. Oh my God it's so easy. Here's how it works. You just go to Fridge Dot Com and upload your photo or they'll send you packaging to safely mail your physical pieces. You preview your item online in any frame styles your favorite or get free recommendations from their talented designers. The experts it's at frame bridge will custom frame your item and deliver your Finnish piece directly to your door ready to hang. Instead of the hundreds you'd pay a framing store. Their prices started just thirty nine dollars. All shipping is free plus armchairs will get fifteen percent off their first order at frame bridge dot com. When they use Promo Code? Dax Get started today frame. Your you're photos or give the perfect Valentine's gift go to frame bridge dot com and use Promo Dax save an additional fifteen percent off your first order. Just go to frame bridge DOT COM PROMO CODE DAX FRAME BRIDGE DOT COM Promo Code. So you run Jigsaw. EXHAU- in your world is tech yet. You have this fascination with presidents in you have written this book accidental presidents and again. It's about eight presidents who died and then of course there vice president came in to fill their shoes. And then there's there's all kinds of things to explore within that I love history and I didn't know no this until recently Garfield right. He he went to a convention to make a speech for another candidate. And then there was this crazy lockout where they couldn't decide and then becauses husband speech was so good all of a sudden he ends up. Walking out of there with the nomination is that right Garfield to this date is the only person ever to become president resident who wasn't actively seeking their party's nomination through the ballot boxes so Garfield went to the convention in eighteen eighty which was supposed to be between in James Blaine and ulysses grant for a nonconsecutive third term. He was there as the campaign manager to the guy running third in the polls the governor of Ohio and the thirty something ballot there at a deadlock and somebody's shouts his name out and next thing he knows he's been given the nomination and he runs up on stage and he says I protest a man and who does not seek the nomination cannot be given the nomination they say screw. You were giving it to you anyway. All my teen insane so served these different. I I love biographies. I Love Historical Biographies and slowly picking up some of this presidential stuff. I mean the Lyndon B Johnson ones right now in one of the things that I I didn't know about and I would love for you to tell the history before we get into these vice presidents is. They were not throughout the majority of history picked by the candidate and they were often assigned right and often it was from the opposing party right. So how did the role of the Vice President Star in. How's IT evolved? So the framers of the Constitution. They they didn't want the vice president. They ended up as a last minute addition to the constitution having vice president mainly as an electoral mechanism. That the person who got the second number number of votes would end up as vice president. which is what happened to John Adams and happen to Thomas Jefferson and what was happening is frequently ties? We're taking place so then ratified the Twelfth Amendment which had the electors cast ballots separately for the vice president and the president. But you're right throughout history. The presidential candidate not only. You didn't choose their own. Vp but it was seen as incredibly taboo to try to influence that decision. Well even campaigning was seen in as disgusting for quite a while right there. That was a paradigm shift it was seen as uncouth to even try to campaign and gain support. That's right. It's really early early. Twentieth Century Phenomenon for the presidential nominee to canvass and campaign for election was even the sort of back porch campaigning. upstanding out there and people coming to you was seen as highly out there and you know unbefitting of a president the other thing. That's interesting back in for most of the history. Three of our republic. The president was completely consumed with office seekers so anybody could walk in and out of the Executive Mansion and which was later called the the White House. So you know these presidents would just sit and deal with people seeking offices all day every single day Ryan and and it would it would overwhelm them. And it became all consuming and and it took three presidents being assassinated for the federal government to decide maybe presidential protection. A good idea William McKinley who's assassinated in Nineteen ninety-one one is recently as his assassination. Presidential Protection was basically seen as a way to dish out spoils to your friend so his buddies from Ohio or the ones protecting him. Sure a bunch of guys out of shape and half in the bag smoking cigarettes. Well okay so step one in vice president world was. Whoever was runner-up runnerup basically became vice president and then what was the next phase so then the next phase is at the party convention? They would nominate presidential candidate and then the party would basically you decide who the VP nominee would be typically without any consultation with the person they dominate to be president so it was typically a marriage of political convenience to win a state appease constituency. But it this is. The pre primary presidential primaries. Don't happen until you know the sort of Middle Part of the twentieth twentieth century so back then the. Vp Selection was typically away to get the party to rally around the nominee who's more often than not polarizing to one flank of the party or another. And a Lotta time remember. You have a real sectional balance in the country between North and south because of the issue of slavery so you know a lot of times. The vice president was used to balance the ticket and bring certain elements of the party from one section or another along to the campaign. Yeah they'd throw The southerners of bone by picking someone from the south right well. That's the case of Lincoln Right. Andrew Johnson was an article on all ways to to Lincoln wasn't so what's interesting about Andrew. Johnson is historically we look back and we see him as the disaster that he was in the election of eighteen sixty four one lincoln thought. He was almost certainly going to lose the election. This is for the second term the second term and they thought the only way to win the election was depicted. More Democrat from a border state and the Andrew Johnson was basically the only one but Andrew Johnson in eighteen sixty four his rhetoric on punishment for traitors and his rhetoric civil rights were more progressive than even Abraham Hamm Lincoln because he loved the union more than anything and so long as the union was broken. He would do everything he could to put it back together so. Lincoln violates the rule and engages in a secret intrigue and conspiracy to get Andrew Johnson. Put on the ticket and then has the most disastrous debut of anybody's as president in history. Yeah and I'm trying to think what book I read that kind of got in. Oh I guess it was probably grant a chair now. Have you read that book. The that's great right. Yeah because it dealt with reconstruction and at least Ron Chernow's was not a big fan of Andrew Johnson. I left reading that book thinking. Well that's gotTa be the worst guy we've ever had could. Did you crown someone as the very worst. So Andrew Johnson to me is by far the worst president in the history of the republic just because he became president at a time where he was presiding over a moment where mistakes would have one hundred plus year consequences right so think about this. Lincoln and Johnson are inaugurated on March march fourth. Eighteen sixty five. Andrew Johnson goes to take the oath of office is completely hammered. And it's supposed to last literally thirty seconds and put his hand on the Bible. He ends up going on for seventeen minutes insulting every single member of the cabinet and the remember the secretary of Navy's name so pauses to find out his name proceeds to slobber all over the Bible and then he's too drunk to swear the new senators in so yes a poor clerk to do it for him five weeks later. Lincoln Dead Oh not only. Do you get the drunkard Andrew Johnson as president of the United States but instead set of Abraham Lincoln presiding over reconstruction you get the last president to own slaves a man who was born a racist and died racists who wants the civil war was over ever went back to who he really was and let the states handle. Civil rights gave amnesty to everybody. And we get a delay of civil civil rights by one hundred plus years. This is all stuff I had not learned in school and I didn't realize it until reading grant which was the headline of the civil the war being of course Manson patient proclamation freeing the slaves but really the real gnarly steps all that reconstruction right. That's where like you have all these new rights. We folded the south back in. We were telling them that. Now you've got to let Black folks vote when black folks vote. You have squads of Snipers snipers killing them and then you have people calling for the federal government to send troops down to protect them so they can vote. You have Andrew Johnson in there and he's not doing that yeah that's right. I think I spent the most amount of time researching Andrew Johnson for this book and I found it tortuous. He's such a dark human being and such a disturbing human being. And you realize you know how a haphazard choice to put somebody on the ticket to win an election gave us the black codes which were the precursor to the Jim Crow laws which gave us a one hundred years of segregation. We're still dealing with the aftermath of of of putting Andrew Johnson on the ticket sixty four. And since you love James Garfield his the fact that Garfield ends ends up as the nominee and president in eighteen eighty. Without seeking it out was the best opportunity we had to reverse what Andrew Johnson had put did he liam immediately following under Johnson. So you had Andrew Johnson and then two terms of ulysses grant all right right right right right and then. The election of eighteen seventy six gave us Stratford Hayes and the end of reconstruction. And then. That's when the Jim Crow laws begin because reconstruction ends but Garfield because he wasn't attached to any political party in you know in terms of of owing them a debt of loyalty news a Republican but he got the nomination without seeking it. This was a man who has a teenager hit runaway slaves who Espouse House two principles that would define his presidency. He wanted universal suffrage any wanted universal education and then the second is he wanted an end to the spoil system. despoil system the principle of you win the election and all your friends and supporters end up in positions of high power. So if anybody could have reversed Jim Crow it would have been James Garfield L. But mentally ill office seeker. Put two bullets in his back. Four months after he became president four. That's all. He was president for four months. Oh my goodness well well. Also I think it's relevant to point out. We lose sense of just how frequently world leaders were just being assassinated. It was like every six years some very prominent world leader was going down. East happen all the time. What's amazing is the two longest periods of American history without a president? Dying in office. Were George George Washington to William Henry Harrison in eighteen eighteen forty one and then JFK to the president so in-between. The president used to die in in office like every ten to twenty years. That's before you even get into all the assassination attempt so imagine this the longest period of time without a president dying in office. We have the oldest incumbent in the history of the Republic and the two leading contenders on the democratic side are both in their late seventies. Yeah so oh we. We don't wish to ever go through this again but we take for granted how frequently this used to happen. And the shock to the country system from losing the man who was elected then ending up with somebody who in all eight of the cases took the country in a completely different direction is is mortifying to Solomon exhilarating to others right. Yes so because of that. You assume that this upcoming election cycle that people will recognize that that these are quite old candidates by by history standards in that The backup plan should be one. That's pretty well thought out and vetted you think that'll be the topic that has more relevance than it has in the past or you think people just blow by that going. Oh they'll live forever. I think people will pay lip service but the way that things are done now where where the candidate gets to choose their own running mate lends itself towards. It's a particular moment in the election cycle. I'm up against the ropes and I need to bounce bounce the polls ten points and this is the best way to do it and then they manufacture some answer. This person is fit to lead and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. But it's grossly irresponsible way to choose somebody who could one day become commander in chief and it also lends itself towards another interesting phenomenon. which is if you're the candidate? You WanNa make sure you don't pick somebody who's more exciting fighting an interesting the new and you WanNa make sure you don't pick somebody who's such a disaster. Had they embarrass you so you basically end up netting out at picking the junior varsity version Russian of yourself and my problem with this is i. Don't want the junior varsity person as the commander in chief. I want the captain of the Varsity team. Yeah and presidential candidates are not incentivized to do that. Why wouldn't they want someone that could outshine them? I mean ultimately. How would that cost them anything in this election? It might be different because it's unprecedented to have candidates this age running on both sides and so you could imagine this time around that there's going to be a real desire to pick the assert future leader of the party on both sides now there would be two ways. There's probably nine ways to look at it but the two most obvious explanations for this seemed to be one people are living longer so naturally people live longer and longer and longer. We'll probably see people older and older that are able to have that position. So that's that's one explanation. Another one would seem to also be that. Wow I'm both sides. Seem to be saying they want something from a bygone era or they are romantic about some way of life that these two individuals live through and know how to return us to is that fair to guess. That's that's one way to look at it. I think what you're really saying is both sides are espousing this view of kind of some sort of return to normalcy The the problem is if you look at. There's an irony one hundred years ago. Warren harding who also died in office ran on a platform of a return to normalcy. Had World War. One two terms of Wilson Wilson's spent his last year completely incapacitated with a stroke. People just wanted the economy to go back to normal they wanted no foreign entanglements. In so harding's whole all campaign was put America first returned to normalcy and then before his term ended up he died in office. How did he die? He died of a brain hemorrhage judge. Okay and he left behind an avalanche of scandal that landed on the lap of Calvin coolidge two months after he. He took the oath of office but the economy was doing so well. It was the roaring twenties that nobody cared. Nobody cared about kickbacks and oil scandals and kickbacks except the Veterans Bureau they didn't care that the attorney general was complicit in all sorts of stock manipulation and bootlegging and fight fixing. And you name it. They just cared that this with the Arab Eskimo pies consumer products. Everybody was doing well and it all came crashing down with Herbert Hoover in nineteen twenty nine so that brings up a great the topic which is As I've read these biographies I realized how ignorant I was to how this country true really has worked for. Its most of its history. You realize that whatever you think you're returning to just know what you're asking to return to because in general aw tons of corruption tons of kickbacks t I mean just. I think it's tempting for people to think that they are observing the worst ever in in our political history and then just as in our history in general and there's there is a tiny bit of arrogance to it that you would think you're witnessing the very worst thing but just it's important to know right what what we've we've come from and and the little baby steps that have been bettering the process the whole time and those have really have been happening if you take a thirty thousand feet view view of the whole history. How relevant is that? People understand our history so that they know where we're going amending. This is one of my biggest concerns is that we've lost understanding of the importance of history. I Love Computer Science. I love technology. I think social media has its values. But it's it's increased the pace of things and trivialized the substance of things. So much that we've forgotten to ask the question. Have we seen this this before. Or what does this look like before is it. Is it a quantity and band with issue. Is that part of the promises. So much info nonstop. I think it's a couple of things I think some. It is sheer volume of of content. Bam I think some of it is. We've disparaged the humanities in favor of the sciences and I love the sciences too but not at the expense pence of the humanities. And what's interesting is when I started to write accent presidents you know. Donald Trump wasn't even on the scene. People were pretty sure they knew what the outcome of of the two thousand sixteen presidential election was going to be and what ended up being most fascinating for me in the five and a half years that I wrote this book is it was a refresher are in. Just how polarized just how divided just how corrupt just how complicated the American republic has been throughout history and I find myself looking at everything that people are hysterical about today and it has its roots in things that we've seen before whether it's polarization whether it's partisan politics whether it's sort of foreign entanglements. Yeah in the thing is I never point this out to suggest you shouldn't care about what's going on today or you shouldn't be fighting for what needs to improve today today but just the this is the worst it's ever been is such a defeatist point of view and it really doesn't bear much truth and but how do you think today ranks. Thanks in that division so I agree with you completely. This is this is far from the most divided and polarized. This country has been. It's interesting the two most. Partisan it is in chapters of American history were the slavery era and the Post Slavery era. The difference now is the the politics and the polarization is partisan by party lines whereas the divided aspects of our country were north and south. They were more sectional. They reflected more fissures along sociological aspects of our society. So if you look at the partisan politics today it doesn't have a lot of depth to to it. It's about party loyalty in one direction or another. Yes we've seen. Both sides wavering. Completely on what. They were even in the eighties when I grew up bright. So you've got the Republican spending untold amounts of money and growing government. which were they were always against you? Have you know the left embracing these war options. They wouldn't have in the past like it didn't seem like there's a bed rock of what the position of the parties is anymore. You're the parties have flip flopped tremendous amount throughout history. Just look at the Democrats crafts during the era of segregation in the south. Yes this is what I wanted you to walk us through and explain because I just over Christmas with my brother. So we're my brother and I are not politically politically aligned. Which is pretty common families I think but he was like what Republicans freed the slaves and I said well yes the word Republican could be used to say that but I think we should be looking at the content which was Abraham Lincoln was insanely progressive? Right we could all agree. He was probably was he the most progressive president we've ever had. I mean what's what's entering Lincoln. Lincoln Lincoln was at the time really more of kind of a centrist it was the radical Republicans who he was concerned about wanting to accelerate things too quickly. So the the. There's a whole flank of the Republican Party that was mostly based out of New England. That wanted Lincoln to go even further and so he was is wrestling with Sort of far right version and he at the time was much more of a centrist. We just think back on his tenure and what he did and we've you has progressive. I would say teddy. Roosevelt more than any other president ushered in a level of progressivism. That we'd never seen before. But it's only because he was elevated needed to the presidency upon mckinlay's assassination He has the greatest line of any president ascending upon the death of their predecessor. Where he says is it's a terrible thing to come into the presidency this way but it would be far worse to be morbid about it? And that's Teddy. Roosevelt said that he was also a warmonger. Theodore Roosevelt in the context of today would make the most hawkish presidents look like doves. I mean this is a man who he just love. War entire childhood upset that his father got himself recused from participating in the civil war and atoning for that and looking for a war and the poor guy had no wars going on the also grew very sickly right with with asthma and then he went to some dude ranch and found himself and became strong in Vero and I think he was compensating for having been a weakling as a kid he he was told he wasn't going to survive and he was told by his doctor and his father that he needed needed to make himself fit if he wanted to survive so he he was also extremely depressive. And these guys right yeah. He was deeply deeply deeply disturbed. He I think a lot of his hyperactivity ambition came from this desire to outpace his own depression so he raced through life and he rushed through life. Faster than anybody. WHO's a totally intoxicating character uses great moment? The biggest mistake of his life is when he wins election. He's the first accidental president to win election in in his own right in nineteen. Oh four of all the people that assume the office as vice president became president. None of them won reelection. Except for the first I I did not and then the second Ford did okay. He kind of set a pattern and so he immediately announces. He's not going to seek reelection in one thousand. Nine hundred eight comes to regret it. Tremendously comes back to try to run for president as a Bull Moose Third Party in nineteen twelve and while giving a speech he gets shot and the bullet penetrates a forty forty page speech hits his glasses case. He unbuttoned his shirt. Tells the crowd that he's an expert taxidermist and he's examined the wound and he can survive long enough to finish the speech each and get to the hospital. Feel real right in the win that one I know okay but what were the progressive things. He implemented at the time that would make him the most progressive president so for Theodore wrote the trust busting was highly highly radical at the time the other thing is he. He was just big on government accountability. So when he was police. Commissioner in New York used to go round in the middle of the night with a pat and paper you know sort of almost shadowing police officers. I've writing down. Their misbehavior and their misdeeds drove. Everybody nuts because he was he was a very aretha thorough integrity or I. That was the word I would use. he was dedicated to ending corruption. And all those things he he was a virtuous man on some levels levels right he was virtuous he was self righteous and he. He was more progressive than anyone else of his day at that at that time. Okay so now back to this flip between the Republican look-in Party in the Democrat Party so yes. Lincoln was a Republican. We would agree. Probably Lincoln wouldn't be a Republican today. Or why even guess that it's hard to say. Hey in this. In this context did flip right name switched. Yeah how did that. How did that happen? What were the steps to that? The names were always switching the Republican Party emerges urges because the Whig Party essentially collapses and the poor wigs. They twice elected a hero. War General William Henry Harrison Eighteen. Forty Zachary Taylor in eighteen forty eight and they both drop dead Harrison after thirty days in. Office Zachary Taylor. After after a year in office and so so the party it fell apart and it gets replaced by the Republican Party. But when Lincoln runs for reelection in eighteen sixty four they rebrand the party. Is the National Union Party. Because it's a split ticket between and Johnson as a war Democrat in Lincoln as as a Republican Do you think currently our our candidates are at the most extreme in their party as it's ever been as far as we have some very left candidates on the Democrat grant side in some obviously very extreme. Right candidate is well. I feel like this is the first election where we don't have very many moderate options nations. Yeah I think that's a great insight. Monica I think the uniqueness of the current moment right partisanship has been around forever polarization. It's been around forever. What's happening happening now? Is it's taking place at a moment where we're seeing the complete. Evaporation of the center. Excess th th this country used to be governed by the center And it had to contain tain different flanks of both parties or you know sort of sectional partisans and now what we're seeing is polarization and partisanship on the far flanks. Thanks of both parties and a shrinking middle and never been there before. Okay great so that leads to a question that you'd be uniquely skilled to answer. Which is this is my theory on social media dive not unique in this theory but the fact that the the more outrageous statement you make on twitter the higher higher likelihood it becomes a headline in Click Bait economy or a click economy the most provocative things going to get the most amount of clicks? So is that what has led to this like extremism on both sides of the spectrum. Do you think I I think they're part of it. I think it's a couple of things one I think that technology. She has removed the intermediaries that used to be the disseminators of information and now any individual can own develop and disseminate their own content right. Hi So everybody's a publisher That that's that's one thing that play too. I think that the accelerated pace of movement making that's come with technology has slowed down leadership your ship development. So I think we have an endowment of good leaders that's drying up and our society doesn't seem to be producing a lot of good strong new leaders anymore. There's exceptions but but we're not building the pipeline of leaders in the US and the democratic world that we used to impart because you people become flash in a PAN public figures of four they become seasoned leaders. If you look at the the Nelson Mandela's the the goals of the world you know. It took them decades to be leaders before they became public figures and by then they'd really sort of refined their skills so the erosion of leadership is the second thing and then the third is. I can't can't help to look at social media. Sometimes you as of vortex of voyeurism in the sense that you click Ba- sensational all comments only work if there's a lot of voyeurs searching for it and gravitating towards it and it's true in a world of clicks and likes and so forth you know we are measuring ourselves based on how many followers we have how much affirmation we have. It's clear that sort of saying substantive wonky insights. Don't get you either so my theory is like okay so I would imagine. Eighty percent of the country doesn't agree with a far left or the right but you will never read a headline that says I propose a great compromise between these two valid points. Like that's just never GONNA BE A a headline on CNN or anything so we're simply not even reading those ideas. That seem like a compromise or well-thought-out or so I don't know like what's the chicken and what's the egg where where do you especially. Someone runs jigsaw like what is the mechanism by which we could re amplify. What I imagine is the majority of the country? Yeah I mean imagine if social media had existed during during some of these seminal moments in history that I write about in the book you wouldn't have had a compromise of eighteen fifty that delayed the civil war by ten years. You wouldn't have had the backdoor your dealings that happened in Congress that resolves some of the most important disputes in history so so in some respects everything playing out on such a superficial level so much public makes makes deal making much more difficult and if dealmaking is more difficult than the most contentious issues. Don't get resolved oft in private and instead they play out in public and if they're playing out in public and you have an evaporating center than it's impossible or difficult to imagine extremes on both all sides but I guess my question is do we have an evaporating center is their statistics to support that. We just be silenced. Majority that's Central there's an evaporating center in the representation but not necessarily in the people. I think the problem is we don't really know right. I can't imagine like I guess here's what happens. I go on twitter and I I read stuff and I'm like Oh my God. The far left is so fucking nuts. The far right is so fucking. That's and then I talked to any human being in real life and find. Almost nobody I know is on either besides of those tales and yet I you don't get a sense that that's the case on facebook or twitter but in real life. It seems very obvious to me that most of us are are far more centrist than than it seems to be represented on stay tuned for more armchair if you dare we supported by hellofresh get mouth-watering seasonal recipes and premeasured ingredients delivered. Right to your door with hellofresh America's America's number one meal kit hellofresh cooking at home easy and affordable hellofresh now from five sixty six per serving. Monica what are you. Sink your savory teeth teeth into Oh my goodness I had a squash and sage Rosado when Hamas and walnuts it was so win Torri three and really fortifying. Did you pair it with a wine at paired with a red wine. Oh my gosh now let me tell you what I got myself into a bold in beefy Taco with Tangy slaw PICO and guacamole bream. Are you kidding me. I paired it with a non alcoholic. Beer Ashok felt like I was on the shores of the Baja and Mexico off whisked me away now listen. hellofresh recipes are delicious and they're so easy to prepare repair twenty two season all plus chef curator recipes each week. There's something for everyone including low Calorie Vegetarian family friendly recipes. Most of the meals can be prepared and just around thirty minutes or even twenty minutes with two quick recipe options. It's also incredibly flexible for your lifestyle right. You can add extra meals or launches to your weekly order or throwing. 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So it never gets old you like that now. It doesn't require the Internet to play. That's what I like most about it so I can plan on the airplanes great for traveling play anywhere plane subway etc the best parts who is just collecting the characters. It turns me into a real hoarder me too. Now engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must us play download best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the best scenes. Yeah and I think the problem is if you're connected to the Internet you're splitting your time between in physical and digital worlds right and you kind of have multiple personalities right. You've got your personality on twitter and other social media outlets and so forth and then you've got your persona from when you interact with people in real life and they're not always the same and often times. They're they're not so the reason it's hard to evaluate what's happening to the center center of this country. Is You have a perception. That comes from what we see playing out in public where there's a lot of volume. Yeah and then you have a reality. That is the people you physically interact with and that sample size just isn't large enough Ryan. But I think you're making an important point here. which is the voices of reason are sort of the equivalent prevalent of the voices of stability? And it's much easier to be allowed destabilizing voice than it is to be a voice of reason stability. So what happens is all of the commentary. Terry that is reasonable and practical. You know ends up getting drowned out by loudest voices if you were to walk into a parking lot and they were one hundred people and you were sort of you know a practical voice among ninety plus voices of extremism. Yeah that's right and you just put it on another thing when you talk about the fact. That deals deals used to happen with some level of anonymity or privacy. I also I. I do empathize with the people in Congress and in the Senate Senate in that any move they make will be public in two seconds. That's a huge difference right. I think about this the impeachment trial and I think to myself Elf. What are the merits of having it be a public vote like wh? Why is it that they that it's not a private vote? I wonder what the vote would be if if people got to cast their ballots in private in the Senate and I'm sure there's a great argument for why we should know how voting because we elected them and if they're not voting the way we want so I I'm sure I see the argument but at the same time I feel like a lot of these issues now has become so politicized and partisan that like I don't think you could get someone to vote with their our heart because they would be immediately blasted in killed because we all know about thirty five seconds. Yeah what's interesting about impeachment in some respects I think the founders and the framers of the Constitution. They didn't quite get this right. They picked partisan bodies to play the role of judge and jury and as long long as the founders were alive they never impeach the president. They never even attempted to impeach the president and the last of the founders Di was James Madison in eighteen thirty six and then John Tyler in eighteen forty three becomes the first president to have articles of impeachment brought against ground he. It was completely politically motivated because Henry Clay in the party were upset that John. Tyler wasn't pushing their agenda and their view was he only became president because Harrison died dafter thirty days and so he was particularly weak so they tried to. They tried impeach him. It didn't work. They ended up formerly excommunicating him. So he's the only president to get kicked out of his his own party and Andrew Johnson who we all loathe You know it's interesting that everybody when we talk about the stain of Andrew Johnson on our history points to the fact that he was impeached. There's many reasons to criticize Andrew Johnson at almost trivializes those many reasons to criticize him by pointing to impeachment because he was impeached impeach by radical Republicans. who had thought he was one of them Quickly realized he wasn't and impeach him for a law that was later deemed unconstitutional which which was a law called the tenure of Office Act said that the president couldn't fire appointees that were approved by the Senate without approval from the Senate So that's what they got him on so he was the first president to be impeached. And then you know. He's an accidental president. So there's no vice president until nineteen sixty seven with the twenty fifth amendment. There's no constitutional provision provision for filling that they can see so at the time in the late eighteen sixty s the next in line would have been the president pro temp now the president pro tem was is in the Senate so the Senate is trying a president were in there where one of their own would end up as president and Johnson an escaped conviction by a single. Oh Oh oh so. Has Anybody been convicted. So you need a simple majority of the house to impeach each which all that means is the house decides and votes to put the president on trial in the Senate. You then need two thirds of the Senate to vote to convict the president which would remove the the president from office in two thirds. Vote is almost impossible to get right other. They came very close with Andrew Johnson. But it's never been gotten it's never been gotten and so almost every instance where there's been articles of impeachment brought against the president of the United States have been politically motivated. Everyone all the way up to Nixon. Oh because I was going to save for for me and my mind. At least I wasn't coherent during next but the way it was presented my whole childhood was that seem seem to be one. Everyone agreed on. Is that accurate yet. I think Nixon. In the case of Nixon he resigns. Because there's bipartisan agreement. That he's committed high crimes and misdemeanors so Nixon. The Republicans basically go to Nixon and they say we have the two thirds votes in the Senate resign or you're going to be convicted and be the only one in his so. He resigned and in some respects. That's kind of how it should work right where you spare the country along trial. You have sort of bipartisan consensus. You wonder if it would have played out the same way with Nixon had social media. been around the. Yeah now I mean but it's it's I mean you can ask that about a lot of moments in history. Yeah only been three four for at this point right well. So you have Andrew Johnson impeached. Ah You have Bill Clinton impeached and then you have President trump impeach right. But you've had another ten or so that. Have you know had attempts at impeachment meeting somebody buddy. A member of all it takes is one member of the House to bring articles of impeachment against President. just a lot of cases. Nobody voted for them right. They they were always politically motivated. Always yeah that makes sense. Okay now. This one's just a juicy one in one that I've always kind of had a An issue within in this will be unpopular. But I will say and it probably stems from me coming of age and being a Democrat when Clinton was impeached is probably we somehow motivated by that. If I'm being honest with myself but I have always thought I don't give a fuck if someone is unfaithful i. What does that have to do the job I elected them to do? I don't care by the way. I'm not a trump supporter. The lease interesting thing other than when it's been predatory and potentially illegal if he's just having an affair I'm I'm not really that interested in it. I I don't think fidelity is one of the virtues that I need in a president. This you know regular support for this is always that will they. They put themselves in a position to be blackmailed. This is how they got rid of portray us for his affair right. Is that if you if you have an affair. You're potentially to hide that you could be devoted to some kind of outside state now. I've always thought that's kind of Horsh it. I don't know that I buy that. But how many of the presidents were unfaithful that we know of a a lot of them. I mean I I. This is sort of This is something that I wrestled with my editors on because I really my mom calls accidental presidents. Very smutty. I get into a little bit of sex in the book. Washington father twenty-nine illegitimate children. Don't go too fast. Let's think about George. Washington fathered twenty nine eleven allegedly. Wow Holy Shit I did not know I shock you even more yes please. Warren harding impregnated a woman in a five by five hat closet in the White House while he was president. All my goodness okay shall like going. Oh my God. I never stopped as Monica favorite. The high grover. Cleveland fathered an illegitimate child as well so much so that the campaign against him was Ma. Ma where's my PA. He's gone to the White House. ha ha ha. Oh my God everyone knew about it. These were out in the open rally open and people didn't care right. There was a paradigm shift right. I can't remember around what president but the but the media used to not cover that that was kind of some weird rule that they had where they didn't really do that. When did that change? So I think Cleveland Wind was Kinda the watershed moment but then it picked up again with Warren harding because there were rumors about race right so when it involved race I. It ended up complete fleet BS. Oh rumor but when there's rumors involving race they ended up getting tougher with Thomas Jefferson Valley hemmings wasn't talked about until much much later amazingly controversial stories. Right you know John. Tyler becomes a widower president and ends up marrying a woman. Half his age while he's presidents the first presidential essential. Oh so what was his agent. What was her? He was in his fifties and she was just barely twenty fun. Fact About Tyler. Her Father Fifteen children and two of his grandsons are still alive. No Way Man born during the administration of George Washington who has two grandsons who are amazing. He fathered last child while he was in his seventies that child fathered two children when he was in his seventies and those children are now in their ninety s father awesome children going up and FDR FDR's mistress was one of the people by his bedside while he was dying. There's it's actually a fair amount of evidence that FDR was relatively a sexual okay. for for much of his life. So maybe the mistress was just an a companion. You're exactly I mean I think. FDR was prone to fares right. Eleanor is just so damn busy going on for herself. If no one who had committed infidelity could be Leader we would've lost out on a bunch of our leaders. Let's start there right and I think And this is this is less about fidelity and just the continue desire to move the the bar closer and closer towards perfection if our standard is absolute perfection. WE'RE GONNA end up being led by the leftovers and the leftovers are not really really who I necessarily you know people people who are so perfect in so calculating they never take any re- that's that's a level of robotic system that I don't really they want in charge of the country. Yeah the also believe. This is what I always argued about. Clinton it's like people were shocked that he would have the audacity you to have these affairs and I thought well if your whole life you learned a rule and then you discovered the ruled that apply to you than of course. Why would that rule will be any different like you've you've made a life of of being a super young governor and then a soup you know you've broken? All these rules are proven these rules not to apply to you then. I think it's not a stretch to imagine. Will the these other rules don't apply to me either and I kind of need someone in that position that doesn't think the rules apply to them on on some level which is so sweet spot once your president. Though and I'm sensing from Monica's body language of once you're in the White House wants you occupy the office. There is a standard that we should be holding you too because you are supposed to kind of almost I have an out of body experience and become the president. You almost put your humid your humanness. Aside and for the next eight years be the president right. People have complicated lives. Yeah but I believe that. When you're an elected official your put there by the voters you're put there by the taxpayers? The tax payers are betting on you. And you're you're supposed to represent the integrity of the country. What you do before and you do after is between you in the law and UN? Your yes the. I agree but let me paint an analogy. So you're about to go get a liver transplant. And you're presented with two options. This surgeon is a five on the skill level but he has never cheated on his wife. This guy is a ten. He's the best surgeon in the world and he fuck someone hourly. Who are you going to have do your surgery? I'm at one hundred percent of us are going to have the guy who's a piece of shit morally but the best surgeon. The world do our liver transplant but the but morality does transfer transfer more in politics in governing leadership surgery. Done so good point. That's great thank you so you just to consider a little bit. How they behave 'cause it will potentially transfer into how they behave in being the president Margaret? Maybe you agree with me on. This tax is a person if somebody's cutting me open and doing surgery on me. I don't want them to be thinking about who sexing me right now. Well no we we already have the data. We know that there are ten. They've taken an aptitude test in this hypothetical and they are the best surgeon region ensure when they open up your body. You're like ooh that kidney looks like titties I love titties Blah Blah Blah. But they move past that and then they get to the business at hand they go into zone on they get into a state of flow. Anyone would pick that person. You're right so different. It's not the same thing. Yeah I just wonder if we need to be a little less delicate delicate about to your point if we're asking for someone who have been to have lived forty five to fifty six years flawlessly. That's the only person that is qualified. I think we're we're in a very dangerous situation. I want the guy that will take the big swing. I once you thing. Sully you good in a nightclub think again Monica. I think the best rockstars have been the ones that were super juicy the weight so I this conversation makes me a a little nervous. Because you know you're having a conversation that is what trump supporters think that. They think they think it doesn't matter that he's saying saying grabbing women by the Pussy. Those things are irrelevant to what he can do. He's going to make America great again. Yeah I hate that I Louis. The in I don't like it either but I forced myself at all times anytime one of these stories comes out. I literally force myself to imagine the exact same. The story came out about Obama because I loved Obama. But that's not the point so you just have to force yourself to imagine it's Obama. They're saying about this in Obama's with some dude on a bus and he says oh I grand by the Pussy first of all. 'cause I love Obama Mike. I bet he doesn't even mean that I think he's trying to be funny to that guy. I think he got like an angle. Do all these excuses because I love Obama and I think it's worthwhile for people on both sides. It's just imagine their favorite person. This is just to see who can at least understand how the other people feel. I think it's incumbent upon us to try to at least understand how they feel and quite often when I run transgressions through the Obama tests. Yeah I understand how you feel if it's one thing if it's all the things Obama would no longer have been my favorite a person would even yours if all of the things are transferred onto him. I don't know man. I like them. So many he's fucking vocally against gay gay marriage which he could not have been more on the wrong side of that my opinion I still like the guy now is like well. He doesn't not enough other stuff. I agree with that. I'm going to standby him so I know what it's like to compromise your own morals because there's another aspect of the person you're willing to go along with. I think we all do. I mean look at you. You work with me and got some wretched sides shrill. I want I don't WanNa leave you jerry. But you're probably smart to stay out of this. Okay can I ask you. I'm confused by this. So the rule as we now know it as you can only serve two terms as president but two consecutive consecutive terms correct. So the rule is you can serve two terms. They do not have to be consecutive. And you can serve two years of someone else's presidency if you inherit the press you ten if you this. This doesn't come until after. FDR served four terms. They amend the Constitution to basically say your cabinet two terms plus two of an inherited term right before that there are no rules on this so is he's the longest serving president longest serving president was elected four four times but then he dies just four months into his fourth term and the man who takes over for him Mary. Truman is probably less prepared to become president than any any other man in history really during Truman's eighty two days as vice president he only meets FDR twice. He never steps foot in the map room. Where the war is being planned? He's not briefed on the atomic bomb. He doesn't mean a single foreign leader or get a single intelligence briefing. He's basically just out socializing and he's GonNa come in and decide whether or not to drop two atomic bombs so April twelfth nineteen forty five. He gets a call that he needs to come over to the White House and he thinks he's in trouble and about to get berated by the president so several hours later he gets the White House. Eleanor Russell puts her hand on his shoulder. Says Harry the president is dead and he says is there anything I can do into says No. Is there anything I can do for you for your the one in trouble now now. Oh so what is. Truman spent his first five days doing going into the map room and figuring out what the hell is going on with the war. I nine months. He ends the war. Shapes the post-war order has to figure out Stalin has to deal with Churchill has to contemplate moving a million men from the European Theater to the Asian Pacific the Civic Theatre and he has one of the most remarkable presidencies in history. Yeah Wow did he. Rise to the occasion He more than any other. Were there any universal qualities of the folks that did rise to the occasion in university qualities. That got people do a Shitty job so I think there are two things. There were the circumstances of the moment and the personality polity of the man and in the case of Harry Truman. Both those things converge. You had an incredibly important moment that meant the FDR men who we're a different breed than the truman felt like the future and the fate of the world rested. On Harry Truman success and they were determined to make him success to help him. So you compare and contrast past that with and then Johnson who inherited Kennedy's foreign policy team who didn't think the future of the world rested on Lyndon Johnson thought he was basically a bumpkin from you know Texas Mocked him behind his back. Antagonized him behind his back and in many respects did a lot of things to undermine him and Ford Him so without doc inherited men to advise him on how to shape the Cold War policy. He completely fumbled Vietnam but Johnson's at fault because he didn't he wasn't able to demonstrate the same level of courage on Vietnam that he did on civil rights. So I'm getting a very one-sided view of Lyndon B Johnson Carol version and from from what I'm learning I'm on book number four. I mean just a piece shit in a lot of waste stole every election he quote one. enriched himself beyond measure. You're through his political ties Just the full on conman in ways that did rise to the level of president Joy Jaded that sense of him or is that a pretty accurate summation I think that's right but I also think that the reasons that made Lyndon Johnson so despicable are the things that made him an asset to shepherd through the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five. I remember interviewing George H W Bush before he died for the book and his view on Lyndon Johnson is had kennedy not been assassinated. You wouldn't have had such sweeping civil rights legislation sixties. Because you needed a you you know southerner with that Texan Twang. who had a track record with the segregationist who kind of looked the part of the people who were on the wrong side of history? Yes well that's how I explain Howard Stern and his help with the gay rights movement is like you didn't need another far leftie liberal like me saying allow gay marriage. You needed the dude who actually spoke to the dudes that might not have been in favor of that. Okay what does win the week mean so. This is another sort of things that that I've talked to Adam. Grant about one is helping me find. Worry time okay so I mentioned to both of you. I worry about everything so he told me to schedule a worry time so I have three ways that ideal with worry time where I stood on things that I'm incredibly unpleasant to be around sit in the bathtub. I go to the gym and I read read history but the other thing is I found that I was having a really hard time letting things roll off my shoulder right. You know I'd be worried about something or stressed about something and I would just stew on it and harp on it and so and have some conversations with Adam about this and he encouraged me to find a mechanism that worked for me so I decided that that I would treat the year like fifty to best of seven series fifty two weeks a year seven days a week and I won the week if I went to lead happier than I woke up. Four out of the seven days the reason I like this mechanisms. I'm a competitive person. I like sports analogy worked for me but the other reason I liked it is it allowed me to have some bad days. Yeah and so if the day was just complete shit zero one and I'm going to come back and I'm going to win the next. My wife and I argue. You Bet this because she she is very strong opinions about how I should define winning the day. All I care about is what happens when the BUZZER goes off. It's a bad day all the way up until like eleven fifty and I can pull something off to make me happier than when I woke up. I win the day. Twelve behind the ARC hell L.. Mary shot a basket. Yeah what's your handbag of tools. That can turn your day around. Do you have a a few. So I have a handful and it depends on mm-hmm. What's causing me? Anxiety sometimes physical rigor so. If I'm angry you know the gym really helps you know if I'm sad about something turning my phone off and just spending time with my three daughters the easiest way to cheer myself up sometimes binge eating jelly beans like it. Just it just makes me feel like I can eat my feelings but if I'm upset that I'm gaining weight it counterproductive and also your narrative self will be happy with those first two decisions and and not so pleased with the third but you have three daughters three daughters How old are they five and a half three and a half and six months? Oh my God you're in the thick of it You WanNa hear something wild. What about the middle one? When writing accidental presidents I got stuck on the James Garfield Chester Arthur chapter and we couldn't think of a middle name and I was sitting at our dining room table table with a stack of outdated books from the eighteen hundreds And I said my work you know what let's just call her Garfield is After James Garfield Oh I love it. That's fantastic so just you collect locks of presidential Harem so a word is one be procured. How many blocks Fox do you have A? When did it start? So it's a small ecosystem of historic hair collectors. So what a convention that would be it they actually. I will say that the people that I've encountered who collect presidential hair talking. I don't believe that Campbell's should i. Not You can deal with this interview so I have George Washington George Washington no Yup. I have two strands of William Henry. Harrison's hair taken off his head while his body lay in rest in the East Room. I have six strands of Abraham Lincoln's hair from the native assassination Ronald Reagan. I Have Dwight Eisenhower. Have John Adams lab in active negotiations for Andrew Jackson. Oh my God active negotiate. So where are these broke. I have to mention. There's only like nine people in this chat room that are trading these things but are there hundred thousand people in their mom's basement to another level. Well what's the most so you've spent on a locker here. Here's where it also gets complicated. I have a rule with my wife where I'm not allowed to spend money on hair. Oh with my dealer I I I over pay presidential autographs and get the hair as a kickback. ooh Okay. So what's the most you spent for an autograph wink wink. I would say okay that the most I hope this is I want to knock me out of my. I mean you can run up a bill of like five grand on here okay. 'cause it's not it's not create. I was it's a lack of George Washington's hundred million because what you're sitting on is Cloning your basement becomes an option interesting about the cloning. If it's not a hair follicle then you're limited in what you can do with it. You can only bringing back. Do you have any follicles because the Harrison follicles and one of the strands of Lincoln follicle. Oh my you could bring back Abraham Lincoln. You could find out if if this Lincoln Oh more morphine alley forfeit Marvan's then. He had this so they say Lincoln can have this Genetic Disease Marfan which I've diagnosed that I have in basically telltale signs are like really gangly in tall and gaunt and and Your particular in. What would it tends to do is you? You'RE A or two blows up. So they say he would have died very young even had he not been shot. So what you could do in your basement. You could bring one to full term. You could grow Abraham Lincoln for to like Eighty Years Aceves. Aorta would blow up to find out true but did they have a cure for Marvin's because then we could apply to the new Abra. Once we talked about it on the podcast I got a lot of stones read about it and one person was like you definitely have it. AWW freaked out to look it up. There are treatments. Yeah and there's levels of how bad you can have it so in any way. Can we publicly put out a request for for Obama's hair enjoy living president. So this is I get asked this question a lot about president trump just because Famous hair and my my standard under a bumper sticker answers. I don't collect the hair of the living. Oh that's mine but it's complicated question. I would have to Zeh that people in history had to pronounce proclaim rather I do not collect the hair of the living situation. If you were to come over to my apartment the hair when we come over to. You didn't want to be presumptively. The hair would be the weirdest thing that you encountered but you you would remember it more than anything else. Well for sure display so also an interesting question I in the providence of hair is very important so when you take it to get framed I have attached to ribbons and you can authenticate them. Because for most of the nineteenth century people didn't ask for autographs. They asked for locks of hair. The people who write letters to the president saying I have a lock of your hair. The president would cut a lock attached with wax to the papers. You test the age of the residue of the wax with the age of the residue to do with paper with. What's on the hair? That's part of how you authenticate it but you can never let the hair leave your site. So when it's on the ribbon you take it to the frame store you have to sort of hang out there obsessively passively and I typically will video transfer of the hair as further documentation that the hair didn't lose. Its provident there's there's so many red flags here if I if I worked at a like a walk in frame bridge in I wanted a piece of hair frame memorial like. I don't know that I'm I'm want to deal with this person a second. I'm sorry you you would like to fill me the entire time I do this. I mean God bless the people that have gone along with this really cool I kinda I wanNA start getting into the secondary auxiliary hair less people wanted some of my hair. I've plenty of it. Oh yeah he'll offer that to some of those presidents were just grabbing in a little tougher off of their dog and sending. It'd be pulling strands of hair out all day. Maybe that's why many of these presidents were balding. Eisenhower you're like how do you have. Eisenhower's hair was bald right. Pubic hair netted. Oh don't you dare you get a little hair around his ears. Oh I go to your hair. Extra exclusive on a balls guy. This is how stupid humans are head hairs. Great let's do it your your hair. Oh my God I know over my dead body care is all saying is. Let's Jared thank you so much for coming. It was such a pleasure in everybody. Read accidental presidents. It's fantastic and it's Endlessly Fascinating These eight bows that ended up sitting in the Oval Office. Some of them turned out not to be Bozos. Thank you guys so much and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soul mate Monica Batman and so I was just telling a story I knew someone who was a writer on entourage he wrote in episode of the show and then there was a table read in then one of the higher ups who had been a part of creating the show who is very New York called him into his office and he goes he goes fuck Mike. What the fuck you sort of seen in fucking juries delete they fucking king in US Pew Janas almost pugh? Okay but all Woah calm view things one. I think that joke only works for people who live in Los Angeles would certainly does. Because there's two different Delis Delis. Let's just start there Jerry's famous deli. That's in the name. I didn't add the word famous. It's called Jerry's famous Deli is like four or five locations beautiful place to get a sandwich. Then there's cantors in downtown Hollywood which is more historic right. Yeah but this but the the stakes of which the difference in the scene to this person were at said in Jerry's versus Kanter was as if you said that Jesus was born and Tokyo. You know it was like it just work. Funny was I gonNA say well. There was a tragedy yesterday. It's just so tragic. It's horrible. Kobe Bryant Yes oh five days ago yeah certain public debts have this like massive resonance with people agree. And I think there's more than one variable at place someone says yes. How well known? Are they nobly. But then there's also in my lifetime like John Candy died. And that was so heartbreaking because as a kid he was just thought number one yet at the same time you were like yeah he had had a heart attack and economy. You feel like that seen within the realm of possibility an even Belushi. It's like yeah well. He partied really hard. And that. But someone who's like a physical specimen really eats perfectly and trains and all these things. You're like well that person's should make it. He has one hundred so it feels more untimely. I think I yeah I know I agree and I thought the same but then there's this third component and this is what I was. I guess complaining about today today I got a little pushback from you appropriately so but I started getting all these texts from people going like no more helicopter rights and when I say all these people like five people told okay. I can't right now Hambur I think probably because of my Brad Pitt. Experience recently was on Ellen. I wrote in a helicopter with Brad but some some people yelled at me and I thought okay well I. I was just defensive like oh I want to ride in the helicopter when I want to because this tragedy happened doesn't mean I can't right now so I thought I had that thought okay they ha and then secondly I was like you know this is the thing is it hurts. It shouldn't happen. It's tragic and feels preventable. It feels preventable. Yeah Yeah right but had he died in a car accident. You'd have gone like we'll know people have to drive. Well that's what I said. Yeah that's your point. That is exactly my point but I would argue argue. Here's a guy who flew to every single L A basketball game and a helicopter. There's nothing to say. That had he been in a car driving in that heavy traffic ah Simpson. He wouldn't have been killed ten years ago if he didn't find helicopters. It's just hard to know and we just really want. We don't ever want to be hurt like that again or experience a tragedy like that against against we just want to remove anything that could lead to that. But I don't think it's grounded in a ton of actual threat level to people's lives. I I think this is like me with. It's exactly that sure we'll know it's a risk I'm willing to take. Yeah and somebody will be like. Oh that's not a risk you should be willing to pay A. Yeah just you know what'll happen if I die on motorcycle. People be like you'll be mad. Let me let me for Dine Motorcycle. Didn't have to ride a motorcycle and I understand that I do but I have to write. I feel like I want my experience about that. You don't have to you not to not to not to exist but yes the experience I wanNa have on planet earth thing. It's my experience I get to have and I get to pick and you do too is. I wanted to involve motorcycles. I understand you want want to involve high flying but high fine without a helmet is my choice and I was a teenager nature so I had no one and I still have no one so also this all leads to I stand corrected on a few fact checks ago. We had a debate about how important apparent is versus a single personal world. One eighty well yesterday when I was careening about all this. Oh my God hounded. By the fact children right repacked that there are other people who are hitched onto his life life who do depend on him emotionally and all of these ways I mean which is why this death also another reason why it affected the people so much is a lot of people were emotionally tied to him. Sports Figures Hapoel. You've been on emotional journeys with Kobe Bryant. Right whether you're a teenager yeah right out of high school whether you're a fan of La and you had the elation of his victories and shared in his victories or you any. You're of fan of any other sports sports team that he destroyed which he did so he's a part of heartbreak. You've had an sports really do bring people together and it builds a community and he's he's what about the helm of that. I mean it is so deep in the emotional roots. He has to so many people but the children. It just feels like Oh. Oh it's just so sad to think that they don't have him and I was like. Oh my God if it was a single person in a helicopter. Of course it'd be sad but it wouldn't be this. I mean also look. This is also compounded by the fact that there were kids on that helicopter. That's is just. I was trying to imagine that to. What is it like to have your family member on that helicopter and then one of the people in the helicopter is like sucking sucking up all the focus of this? If you're one of the other yes and I don't I don't know I don't know whether that makes it worse or less bad. I don't know now if you're like I lost someone and then also the world I don't know but I just kept thinking well either a lot of other people in the helicopter and I don't know who they are. I don't know you know what I'm saying. They're not a headline line gets very. Oh but what I was GONNA say is high flying without a helmet. I did that when I was a teenager. And I didn't have any attachments events we my parents of course but no one depending on me and so you know you have to ride a motorcycle in life. You say and that's fine fine. I think everyone in your life knows that about you but you have to factor in when you have people who need you. Oh by the way it's changed changed everything. which is I used to ride? I'm not naive a recognize it has an exponential lethal factor to it than say broken yoga. That your thing and in the past I would say because I personally don't subscribe to measuring the life by by its longevity. I think There are lots of people that died young. That had much bigger than a bunch of people that made wro- really longtime whatever so I've always thought like okay. If if I die in a motorcycle accident I will have died doing something I was loving doing in that moment and I'm not here no more but I had had the perfect experience while I was here like to me. It's not tragic because a I'm not around to mourn my own death but knowing there are now people that would be around two more in my death obviously makes it much more complicated news really sad. This is offensive to anyone. But I I. This is my hobby is I play. Devil's advocate my had as my hobby and so I'm like I'm aware of the gravity of it and then another part of my brain goes it's. It's a little shocking more people of that caliber. Don't die more often like it. Felt like a longtime. Does that make any sense. Hey Google how. Many deaths are there in the United States of America annually on the website medical news today dot com they say according to the Centers for Disease Control and prevention there were two million eight hundred thirteen thousand five hundred three registered deaths in the United States in twenty seventeen the that I guess what I'm saying is a couple of million people. Die Is all ties into my new obsession. Whitney Houston Elliott obsessed with Whitney as of recently. I'm obsessed with Whitney. Yeah like six six days ago Chris and went to bed early and I sat on my IPAD PAT in bed. And watch the showtime documentary. which I loved I loved? I was heartbroken. I wanted to take a time machine. Gene don't worry. I'm still going back to your grandma. But second stop is to rescue her ask you. I know no but in my mind they could. It's so heartbreaking. Choose so talented and I could see this enormous duality. She was juggling. And it's so hard having so many people are juggling a duality anyways so kobe is in the realm of like Whitney Houston. So I'm just saying it shouldn't feel as shocking as it does when it happens because because two million people a year die in the country so naturally it's going to be some of the famous people. Does that make more sense. No it's because it's because these people koby definitely kind of being like the shining example of this they feel other-worldly principal. NASA they like real god-like way may have been given something very very special that just most humans on earth ninety nine percent senate humans can't achieve even if they work even if they did everything that he did he is special and just like Whitney's special exact same way and it feels like. Oh Oh my God if those people can perish of makes you feel a little bit. That's a good point. That's a good point. Could this be a three part art. Fact check because I now want explore another thing. That was happening to me last night. So then we decided to watch the boy Mir Max just so excited that it was is made by Miramax the Miramax documentary from two thousand eighteen about Whitney. There's so much footage of the mom saying that God gave her that ability and God gave her that and God gets in many times throughout the documentary. She's being reminded that God gave her that talent and I was getting so triggered knowing knowing my baggage. I'm like here. This girl has worked her fucking Azoff for sixteen years to do what she can do. Endless practice understands stands music all these different factors and she's got to act like no. Someone touched her shoulder. That's not the truth. It is the truth a little bit because is it yeah. I'm not I'm not saying it's God or not but if forty five people did exactly the everything Whitney Houston did. She'd be the only one sounding like that. Still Forty five million people. I'd say honest. She there there are some people who mark are given gift will she she has. She has some physiological aptitude to sound the way she did and I guess you can't take it credit for her genetics but her mom was an amazing singer and she really grew up like singing. Non Stop The ten thousand hours. Thank you know at at least if you believe that book at our at least persuasive I don't think it's buying areas either. What he's saying in the book or not but yeah he's a no of the world class symphony musicians? It really can be traced immediately to how much they practice. I think there's a combination ours is massively. The important and working hard is and I think you can be brilliant by hard work But this is sort of circling back to our genius conversation. Ah There are certain people on earth who are above that. Ah It's genetics. It's whatever you can call it. You'RE GONNA scientific way by calling it. Genetics people say God and whatever you WanNa believe leave but there's something extra I do think when I think about those people I think of it. A little more spiritually than science. I mean I think she sings better than anyone. That's ever Sung. Yeah that was being bandied about a lot a- and then and then even kristen was saying it again I always kind of deferred to her. I don't really know technically whether someone's greater now. I think she's an incredible singer. But I was thinking like really really like better than Aretha Franklin to me Aretha Franklin. I'm like Oh my God it's like. There's a fucking volcano. I've never heard all Mike Mike. God I love Aretha Franklin in Blues Brothers when she sings behind the register beyond say nine here one plus one by I beyond saying I'm like that's as good as a human can sing magazine and it's me and you. ooh That's Oh okay all right anyway. Okay jared cone. Sweet jared comb. We loved it really loved him. Yeah and he was so informed and he's he's kind of like Ronin where he was to talk about one thing but by God could. I've talked to him about like eleven different topics for full episodes definitely seeing them. Another genius Adam. Grant a connector. Actually not a connector here but he knows him and I want to have a public ceremony. Remarried Doctor Eric. Topol and Adam Grant ooh four way weird. Oh three husbands anyway. We Love Atom. We love jared red. Love you guys okay. So you said because he was staying at the w hotel right and you said that they tell people. It's adult hotel when I checked him they did. Yeah that's Funny League because I didn't do my due diligence. I was going to call them and see if they set it. They don't it's not on the website or anything But but it doesn't say it on. The website has tons of pictures. That if you're looking for fucking probably would know not to book there I was GonNa say if I were you imposing using a I would call up and go like high. Six small children. Is this a good hotel for us to stay in to see what they say like no. That's true is a bad hotel. Tell for you and your six kids that is true but he made it sound like. They said that a pond checking in they are calling making reservations. They'd tell you up front or they didn't tell me up front up. They said it's going to be loud tonight. You need to know. The Friday nights are allowed here. I think I mean they. They have to warn because I'm assuming they just deal with calls all night long to the front desk like what the fuck is going on now. And they're like this is not a family hotel get over we told us the condoms in the minibar. The sex kit it. Okay so I said that. I thought that jared was our second Rhode scholar and you thought Third I did. And you're right. Oh good. Who is the third? Ronin was uh-huh and Eric Garcetti. Oh fuck right right right and there might have been more but I looked through. The website is taking a long time so I did a glass. The only those three okay. So the book that got him into presidents when he was young is called. The buck stops. Here it's by Alex Berenson or Pro Vinson and You can get that book if you search for it is imprint it but it's not you know everywhere get it's limited dish. Oh you signed copy. I'd love your new home at one point. You said that you would imagine. Imagine that eighty percent of the country doesn't lean super far left or super far right right. So is this like so hard to get an actual number on that. Obviously as you know ooh but currently trump's base his guys not like Republicans who voted for him but title are staunchly supportive of him around thirty to thirty five percent of the country. That's a thought right-leaning group we just talked. What about this the other day I was saying I kind of disagree that I thought that there were a ton of people that are are his base? That are that were prior to him. Probably apolitical but just a difference of opinion. You and I have. No people voted for him. who were who were? Maybe a political but his base is way more than people who voted threatening these are people that are doing the rallies at our staff. And I'm I'm saying that I think my hunch is that many of those people don't have Alva- political policy that they believe in. They don't have a platform that they agree with the liked that representative they like Donald Trump. Yeah I mean what he represents I though is very far right. His rhetoric is very well what he does but his rhetoric is so in ways. He's he's very far right and then another ways. He's not far right at all. Like the fact that he wanted Nafta to be redone as been conventionally a left position -sition the tariff wars very not encouraged on the right. So he does he has some that are but it's all all in opposition to what the Democrats have been doing. Let's put it this way. I think if he said he was pro choice I don't think he loses any of his base like the people who love him and where his hats. I don't think him making a decision to be pro choice that he loses any of those followers. So what I'm saying is that I think a lot of them aren't necessarily so issue issue minded as much as they identify with whatever message he's saying they relate to him and they they feel like he has their interests in mind which could largely be political but if he said I think we should be really inclusive he'd lose people. Yeah so but being Zena phobic isn't really a political political position it can have some. It can have some downstream stuff. But I'm just saying you look at the conventional tenants of the left and the right. Yeah I mean the conventional tenants are gone. I mean that is the truth. Now all of its all muddled up now but if you look at the current state of what it means to to be extremely left or extremely right. We'll the example I'd give on our side of the street would be there. Were a bunch of bunch of people people even gay and Lesbian folks. That loved Obama in voted for him and he was outwardly against gay marriage in so somehow his is being was transcending his policy and on that. Yeah and I just like. He represented something he represented. Hope hope in he He represented a quality and he represented all these things that were the real pillars and then there was others. There was policy stuff but most people what they loved about. Obama wasn't his centrist. Take on the economy or his. They loved Obama for sure. I mean I think Obama's at a little different in a couple of ways one. It wasn't like gay marriage was already legal and then he was like I'm not really for it If that were the case I I don't think he would have what he had amount of followers and if he was actively going against something that was already existing he was just he was going with something that was already existing he. It wasn't like standing up for something new which then he did do of course and I. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I feel that since Obama the country like these extreme left and rights I mean there was some tiny percentage of course always always has been but but it's grown so much since then we didn't have Bernie's then right I mean I think it's all I oh I think it will. I think it goes back to the point. I was making that you originally brought up. which is I just think that because of social media the people that are saying the most outrageous things are now finding finding their voice and headlines of major publications but it is more than that we see it reflected in our candidates now and their support? There's a port like Bernie as a lot of support more than anyone support there. There as far as Democrats go very left on the side side. Oh Yeah Democrats so you know. I think these have grown I really do. I think these extremes have grown. I think they've grown too. Yeah I still think though that. It's misleading. I think I think way more people are in the middle middle. Yeah anyhow okay he is. So there's been four impeachments and he said Andrew Johnson Clinton and trump. But he didn't say Nixon but I think as we had just talked about Nixon so maybe he just and we'll also be because he resigned before there was a Senate hearing. He resigned before he was removed but he was on. He was impeached by the the house. And then he resigned before the Senate then tried the case so. I don't doesn't seem like a half impeachment or no. Trump is an impeached president right forever. And then if whether he's removed or not okay. He wanted me to check to sword of Standby on the fact that people who collect presidential hair are nor more cool. But I couldn't really find any informat join chat Out Room One pitcher of one man. He semi normal hard to know. We'll look at domer- he looked like a boy next door or Had bundy that's probably mean. WHO's the handsome on an Theodore von ranges? From helped him uh-huh he'd have crutches. Shits hang up by the beach. I also think probably wouldn't have because wanting can't be pressured to your also very afraid of strangers in general. I'm skeptical like this person. Might be trying to swindle me. And in that case he would be yeah so he can take his scratches interest. Got fucking childhoods and it's also it's so funny like I want to get into it and I'm still going to say which means as long as I look forward to those things so like I want them to want them so bad that manifested them. But yes someone who's he's trying to take advantage of someone. I pray that they cross my path. I now I know. Isn't it fucked up. Why would you WANNA be part anything like that because you fell taken advantage embarrassingly? You've taken advantage of so you wanna be on top of the sheriff. Yeah maybe under all visit Colonel of nicest which is I feel capable of defending myself against those people and I want to defeat them before they can do it to people that are vulnerable. It's a nice twist. I think it's true. I think it's all about my ma. I think it's all protecting my mom being you know not being able to intervene and mm protect my mom for life made me want to intervene and protect. Yeah I think that's definitely a factor but I think the molesting is a big factor. I think there's a lot of things. Sure come from it okay. It did. Did Lincoln Have Marfan. I don't like this go. Sounds like I'm talking about your. I know I know. I know the President Lincoln Abraham. But we know you're where we know Lincoln Shepherd I don't think she's too young to show the signed now. She is a doozy but her. She's very strong. People are Kinda tough deal based on Lincoln's unusual physical appearance. Dr Abraham Gordon proposed Dr Abraham. We can't have an Abraham investigating Abraham Lincoln. It's confusing Dr Abraham Lincoln Abraham Gordon. Fine Dr Gordon again. Thank you Dr Gordon. Dr Gordon proposed in Nineteen Sixty two that Lincoln had Marfan Syndrome testing. Lincoln's DNA for Marfan Syndrome was completed in the ninety S. But such a Oh but such a test was not performed performed. What I mean I was so stupid? Why would they put this sign? I once saw on the Detroit River. It said don't tire boats to the sign. I don't know if I imagine it. I don't think I imagined it. I think even have a photograph. There was a sign on the bank of the river that Said said. Don't tie off boats to the sign. Maybe there was nine other like sign on the other side that I couldn't read but I want to say it was with Ken Kennedy. We're both like what. What kind of like Appropriations Asians Bill? Was this someone that maybe this Dick was doing something. We wasn't at least from our side. The stick was only holding a sign that sued your boat off to the sign. Wow so he may have had it. Is I guess what people are saying but yeah yeah all these say may have so no one knows for sure if he had it well. Let's get let's get that Herod Saharan. I guess they gotTa have the follicle sometimes. Yeah he has the follicle the he could he could blow the lid off this case. Holly Yep Yep Yep she would tell people real quick I emailed Dr Topol full about. Oh well everyone knows about the personal problem the peeing. That conversation came back up in my life and I think that it may have been a seizure uh-huh and then I had the lab really. Don't take it seriously like you don't love me. I love you I care about your safety me seriously. Respect me respect my seizure. I listen I love you I respect you care about you. I want you to Be Safe You you pee the bed. It's not a big deal and it really really scared you and I think it just might use might appeared the bed. Okay if I just peed. That would be one thing but there were so many other factors blind your bump on your head. I was in severe back pain right. But you don't like one point but you had been in severe back pain like three other other Times Prior to the pee in your pants in life. I've had pulled since very specific though great. I just think that it might be coincidental. Incidental that those things overlapped. Can you have a history of back pain. You don't have a history of pain. The bed never paid the bed right but you do have a history of back pain into something new happen. which is you scored it in the sheets and I did and then the incredibly disoriented? I don't remember that part. Oh Oh I mean I say it. It's said every time I talked to tapes tapes Yes I was incredibly disoriented when I woke up and August. I interpreted that as like you woke up. And you're confused. Why was it wet in your bed? I was I was. I was disoriented beyond like if I feed the bed tonight woke up. Okay okay sure okay and then I had a little bump on my head and then I had really bad back pain and then which this part I wrote off but now I'm coming back to I went to the doctor. They to the analysis. Nothing they didn't do anything else and they didn't even do blood work which is a little weird and and They gave me a steroid shot. which helped with the back pain but then the next day my legs were so sore like fell like I had run a marathon or something really really fatigued and I thought that was. Maybe because I got the steroid shots in my legs were like compensating for the back pain or something. I just sort of wrote that part off. Yeah but then I was on a date and this all came up yep and this suitor had recently had a seizure so then I was telling him about this ping thing and it was kind of saying it in like. Oh I'm just HYPOCHONDRIAC. I have all these things and I had this and he was like. Oh my God. Is there no resolution to this story and I said no and he was like Oh my God odd like that is really scary and I was like. Yeah I mean I guess it could have been like a stroke or maybe even a seizure and he was like well. I really don't WanNa scare you. But the muscle pain. The fatigue is like is really common after seizures and I had that I had like really really bad Muslims because your muscles are contracting interesting so much anyway so that I emailed Doctor Eric Topol. 'cause I was panicked. Yes and you thought that was insane that I that you're learning learning the lines a little bit of his his generosity and kindness. We're going to ask him to treat you as a patient body. Scans on us that. Ask Your friend my friend I want it. But that's my own hangups. All I can really I would feel like I was ebbing an imposition by. Send him that. Email me and I would see my drag and like And so it's all me I. I don't really think that you were wrong for for doing it I did. It just gave me a little bit lower the like the chills that I would be nervous to do that. Yeah I don't regret it but that goes along with my like which is a character defect not asking for help so I'm not saying that you're wrong in that I'm right. I'm saying I personally would have a hard time. I'm doing that. I'm GONNA say something you're not gonna like it all but here it comes Really beautiful girls. Think the world's nicer than it is because when they go in places. The people are very excited to look at them and talk to them and give them their coffee. And Yeah I bet doctor Eric Topol love getting an email email from you. You're very cute and fun. And when I'm an older man yeah I'll probably love it. If a thirty two year old wants me to diagnose with without Luxy so I I'm just a big gangly dude so I hit him up. And I'm like a dog I got a problem with my ass. Even there's there's nothing about it that his realistic. You're a famous person if you will be right so excited to tell you. You have epilepsy. But I would i. I'd like liked to think I would recognize that part of the reason they're willing to do. It is because I'm famous which is another reason. I have to be ethical about it. And you as a hot chick need to be a little more ethical. Okay okay first of all thank Hugh and fuck you not thrill sure like I can see models having this problem but I'm not that so I don't fall into that category hop peace as- chick okay and dudes think that Monica doesn't which is fine. Monica doesn't have to ever think that but I mean every person we we know in our life is currently in love with that is a fact No that's not true at all but That's fine any. Do I feel glad that Kamaluddin now. We're even closer to worry. By the way he posted some pictures of him playing with his ball sure and he called his girlfriend. Oh I love. You heard lease. Maria's Levy Maria's Adam Grant Maria's although although I'm I'm not even if we get married I'm not going to see him at all. You're going to be on the examination table fucking twelve times a day all right. What if in fact

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