3 Episode results for "Jamie Roth"
A new frontier
"The Moon Rise podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse from the Moon to Mars Lighthouse is proud to support NASA and the space industry with the right tools technology science and innovation they need for their most critical missions. Learn more light owes dot com slash space It was two years after Linden Johnson's sputnik hearings the same are all hall of the Senate Caucus Room was now our ringing with activity again reporters clicked up three flights of stairs by the Rotunda of the Russell Senate building they filed in through the heavy wooden doorways they snatched up seeds and spots along the wall of that grand `and room television cameras were stationed in the back corner that were huge and loud and took several people to operate so there was a different senator now standing behind the long Mahogany table a little shorter than Johnson thinner younger in the American flag hung off to his right side. The cameras started rolling reporters held their pens over pads of paper waiting any me moment for it to start. I am today announcing my candidacy for the presidency of the United States January second of nineteen nineteen sixty John F. Kennedy then senator of Massachusetts announces the he plans to run for president of the United States. This is Keith Scott of the Senate historical office office. The presidency is the most powerful office in the free world through which leadership can come may more vital life for all of our people. She seemed seemed not very polished. He seems a little unsure of himself. Is Looking is no cards and this kind of uncomfortable fidgeting and he's so awkward in it are scented the hopes to the globe around us freedom and a more secure life. He doesn't exhibit any the of the vigor and confidence that I think of when I think of historic. JFK speeches don't win the presidential nomination. Will you accept the vice presidency. I shall not any condition the candidate annotate vice president. If I fail in this endeavour I shall return and serve a in the United States Senate and yet ten months later she would be elected the next president of the United States he beat out Lyndon Johnson for the Democratic craddock nomination Johnson a fellow senator more than that the Senate majority leader a man who commanded this marble room during the sputnik hearings with charisma and sheer force of will I think that from Johnson's perspective he saw jfk as a political rival. I think that they both recognized in the other that they had ambitions political ambitions for the White House and so they were rivals to fairy different individuals with very different backgrounds which brought them to the United States Senate and I think think that some of those tensions caused by their political rivalry probably carried over that is carried over when Johnson became vice president and those tensions carried over to when Johnson pushed Kennedy to the moon. I'm Lillian Cunningham with the Washington Post. I want to say that there. We're not be under any conditions. The an intervention in Cuba United States on fourth basically when Cuba is not one in the United States and take it is from south on us to be found out there asking themselves if life exists on any of the planets tenants provide as irs questions is one of the major missions of NASA the National Aeronautic Sense Space Administration There's a myth that's grown up around President Kennedy's decision to go to the moon. We've memorialized his bowl golden inspiring moonshot speeches. We've credited him almost as the architect of this idea and yes he did as president commit the United States to that goal but the question we've been working our way towards this whole time is why somebody gave him that idea he she didn't dream it up on his own who and what made JFK say let's do it. We have come finally to the part of our story where the wild sci-fi fantasy of sending humans to the Moon becomes an actual government program and to understand that last piece of the puzzle requires picking up here two years before the election of John F. Kennedy when NASA was created the National Aeronautics Sense based administration NASA officially got up. I've been running on October first nineteen fifty eight so almost exactly a year after the Soviet Union launched sputnik it actually wasn't even referred for two as NASA at first. Everyone called it that NASA Dwight Eisenhower was still president at the time he ordered NASA asset to absorb a bunch of different space related efforts from around the government and military branches NASA absorbed the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics six it absorbed Aeronautical Research Labs Lake Langley and aims the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that was being run out in California for the army it also absorbed a human spaceflight program that the Air Force was planning they came up with the idea after the Soviets launched like the dog and when the space lay program turned over to NASA they named it project Mercury there were already atlas and Jupiter rockets named from from classic mythology so they stuck with that name concept in myth mercury was a fast winged messenger and the grandsons of the Deities Atlas in Jupiter her they also decided to call the men and it was all men that would be trained to fight a space astronauts. The word had appeared appeared in an obscure Sci fi story from nineteen thirty called the death's head meteor but of course the word astronaut also had classical roots meaning. Someone who flies among the stars to to be cleared these men were not training in in any way to go to the moon. It was a group of seven men whose mission was just to test humans ability to orbit around the earth NASA decided to call these astronauts the mercury seven the agency had only been in existence existence for a few months but in April of Nineteen fifty-nine when they unveiled the mercury seven astronauts this is former chief NASA historian Roger Lonnie CBS and when they were unveiled it was a circus like atmosphere these man nations project Mercury astronauts which which of these men will be first to orbit the earth. I cannot tell you won't know himself day of the flight. It's amazing and to watch the old footage of this news conference first of all tons of people there are smoking through the whole thing including half the astronauts but what's really wild old is just how thrown together and informal the event feels thank you all. I really am here. You can tell them. NASA is so this us the ballroom from the dolley Madison House. Where did this press conference and they never seen so many people? The journalists were in from every media that you could think of television cameras movie real footage. Everything was there and it was uh circus like. I don't think there's any other way to characterize it. Competitive real honor gentleman you're right Malcolm S SCARPA NTER They Roy Roy g cooper John H Glenn Virgil I grissom while her sherlock big shuttered the seven men all white all under five foot eleven all between between thirty and forty years old ladies and gentlemen are the nation's Mercury astronauts of the mercury seven were so similar looking that they took to occasionally lining up in alphabetical order when pictures were taken of the whole group so that the newspapers would get the captions correct because people looking at the picture couldn't necessarily figure out easily who was who this is Margaret Way to camp of the Air Erin Space Museum and these seven men up on stage under the bright lights of the news cameras. They looked the part buzz cut hair military physiques. Here's mercury seven astronaut Wally Sheera answering a question during the event about what got him interested in go into tate's can answer that simply all of us in this room probably read comic strips such as Buck Rogers Flash Gordon Jules Verne routines and if we interested in reading things like this obviously we had intentions following something like this in our lifetimes listening to the rest of the the news conference the responses of all seven of these men seem to play right into the tropes of those science fiction tales of the nineteen thirties and forties to the the hero heading into a new place jokingly of course said that I got on this project because it probably be the nearest to have ever get I had no one to make the most of it a love interest with a lot of Moxie as a matter of fact when I was notified that I was to be considered I was at sea at this time and so my wife called Washington and volunteered for me a kind of older figured scientists of some sort who's advising the young usually blonde muscular male hero I on an perfect killed which one of you John John Lewis. That's easy. They're all above love normal. Yes right now for the announcement. At NASA headquarters they were wearing jackets and ties but for their spacesuits well it seemed obvious what things look like. You've got a whole generation that really grows up in the nineteen fifties with these dreams of spaceflight that are very much connected to silver lemay suits and kind of militaristic style uniforms with giant lightning bolts on them. These were basically the costumes on the popular sci-fi. TV Shows Space Patrol and sure enough soon the astronauts would be photographed in their shiny silver space suits silver helmets silver boots and the blue logo of NASA with a red swoosh across their chest. They were ready to take America on an adventure to space they really were very useful. Sort sort of public relations people as well as being highly technically capable pilots and they just captured the imagination of the of the American public in ways that nobody had ever been able to do previously fiction blurred into reality reality blurred into fiction and before nuclear nightmares had come true so maybe now another Sifi prediction was about to be realized the dream of flying through the stars that said keep been mind. This was still the tail end of the Eisenhower Administration. JFK had an even announced his presidential run yet so for now the chances says seemed pretty slim that product mercury would turn into anything more fantastical than simply aflaid around the Earth Nasa of course makes everything thing about the positive side and NASA has been very effective is sort of selling that argument the military which has the piece of it that is really about terror error and destruction they don't talk about that too much. I would contend that that duality has always been president still was I in terms of space we we think of it as this positive opportunity for us to get off this planet and go somewhere else to explore explore it. That's sort of a hopeful future approach but there's just as much about this. That's about it sort of a negative side to as project mercury began. Dan and NASA came into its own. It's not like the military efforts stopped if anything the military branches now had more bandwidth for our programs that focused on the defense aspects of Space Werner von Braun was still part of the army he watched as is NASA chose astronauts and photographers clicked their cameras and the public laughed and swooned at an idea of spaceflight that foam brown own had been pushing all along around the time the mercury seven were announced von Braun's group the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. They had an idea they came up with a military reason for extending space travel beyond project mercury it was called hold project horizon and the plan was that they would create a military base on the moon and the chief authors of it where staffers who worked for Brown their proposal was more than a hundred pages long and it's full of diagrams ends and cosmic drawings and amazing technical details of why and how we would set up this main base under this army plan they would start delivering cargo to the moon by nineteen sixty five and then there would be a task force of twelve soldier astronauts living on the moon army base by nineteen sixty six and according to the report the benefits of the space would be almost uncountable first and foremost it would give the United States the ultimate highground. We'd have a prime spot for surveillance of the Earth we could build moon based East weapons that could destroy enemy targets. The proposal argues that this might even be the best way to avoid war and to ensure peace on the planet because because WHO's going to attack the United States if we have a base on the moon we can retaliate from embedded in the proposal was the idea that the moon and all this peace between the earth and the moon should be considered a military theater which ran not only only should we build a base they said but we also needed to create a US space command basically a new military branch for space von Braun's group wrapped up this report by June of Nineteen fifty-nine the proposals proposals big point was that we learned our lesson from Sputnik about what happens when we're second. We have to raise to catch up. Let's not repeat that being second to a satellite launch that's not great but it's not catastrophic the being second to planting a flag on the moon and claiming it with it's a military base. You can't be second. You're either I or it's came over they. They put this whole big proposal in front of Eisenhower and Eisenhower rejected it as in Harris Philosophy was I don't see any reason to pursue a moon program or any of that kind of stuff we have no enemies on the moon he rejected and he got these guys and their space proposals calls out from the army and over to NASA it was almost like Eisenhower's on NASA as the place to put all the dreamers and schemers who are are interested in space travel so they would stop money being serious defense objectives of his military von Braun's rocket team stayed in Huntsville Alabama the same place that had been for the army but they became part of a powerful new NASA operation located there called the Marshall Space Space Flight Center and on Brown was named its director just like that von Braun finally became the head of the US rocket program for space. The Moon in writing podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse Deep Space is calling and lighthouses helping the Space Industry's innovators answer the call for Modernizing Nastase Enterprise. It he to processing over thirty five thousand pounds of mission critical supplies each year to keep the international space station fully operational lighthouse delivers the it engineering and science to advance today's most important space capabilities learn how at lighthouse dot com slash space from the White House in the office of the president of the United States. We present an address by Dwight D Eisenhower. This is the farewell address for President Eisenhower who's eight years as chief chief executive come to an end at bloom writing. Mr Eisenhower has chosen this time for his finest speech ladies and gentlemen the President of the United States good evening. My fellow Americans Eisenhower left office in January of Nineteen Sixty one and the council of government we we must guard against the acquisition of unwanted influence whether sought orange zone by the military industrial complex his farewell farewell speech was full of warnings. The potential for the disastrous rise up misplaced power exists and will persist mornings about communism. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic process. We should take nothing for mm-hmm mornings not to use national security as a justification for over militarization only alert and knowledgeable citizenry can't compare the proper meshing the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security security and liberty may prosper to get Eisenhower also gave a warning. That's less remembered today but it's right there at the heart of his speech in holding scientific research and discovery in respect as we should we must also be alert to the equal equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become captive of a scientific technological elite in other words. He said be careful that these pushes space scientists don't steer government priorities. He gave this speech at eight thirty PM January Seventeenth Nineteen Sixty one from the Oval Office his image pulsed across American television screens in black and white and at the end of it he took off his glasses he folded in his hands. He leaned back in his chair and he just said it began a new era on the Radio Etta James and Chubby Checker in books Robert Heinlein had published what would become his most famous starship troopers about a future war between humans and aliens and the rise is of space soldiers on television programming was slowly making the switch from black and white to color and in the Oval Office Office John F. Kennedy was president forty three years old. The youngest man ever elected to the office Kennedy had talked during his campaign about closing the missile gap and beating the Soviets but when he got into office he saw this seem intelligence reports that Eisenhower had at which point jfk then realized what Eisenhower had been trying trying to convey all along at the United States already did outpace the Soviet Union when it came to ballistic missiles those satellites were just effective Soviet propaganda stunts you know when when Kennedy came into office in January of nineteen sixty when he had no special interest in space Roger Lonnie us again he had used the idea of a missile gap that the Soviets had capabilities the greater than ours in terms of ballistic missiles as a as a hammer in the in the political campaign but beyond that he didn't really really know or care very much and and and by the way we know he didn't really care that much because NASA comes into his office right after he takes office and wants it's more money to work on a larger rocket and they couldn't get anywhere inside the administration on this. They were having the difficulty getting to see the president even on it but finally Jim Webb who was the NASA administrator found a way into the Oval Office Kennedy Says Okay you can have about half the money you you want but not all of it and and so if he was such a Gung Ho space enthusiast he would have gone on for this with no trouble at all he didn't and he sort of went away from that not paying too much attention to a after the fact until guarantee launch on the twelfth of April now that change angel things century outside of his first Yuri Gagarin's launch questions that have arisen the West asked about the validity of his life have no place here today as the House while Lola. I never would have a boy pool. I would is Sam unusual them on April twelfth nineteen sixty one so just a couple months into his presidency Kennedy had his own version of a sputnik moment the US was in the process of training the mercury seven to fly into space when news came that a Soviet rocket had lifted off from Earth carrying the cosmonaut Yuri Garden the Soviets had retrofitted a spy satellite into a module that good garin construction self into and orbit the planet newspapers around the world the next day carried images of Garin headlines marked this historic moment great success in space. When the Russians pushed a man across the Rancho he was Eureka Garden the astronaut the Russians lionised as the first to orbit the earth it was the propaganda the crew of the year and there were boastful quotes from Nikita Khruschev like let the capitalist countries try to catch up the Soviet Union had now beaten the United States to every spe- stunts so far I satellite in space first animal and space now first human in Space Khrushchev the Soviet premier was very adept at using those space spectaculars killers as sort of ways to beat up the Americans? Look at how good we are and we can do this stuff and apparently you can't then he gained a lot of world prestige. Dj's a result of this so it's sort of soft power I jeff was able to use it. I mean he immediately sent Uruguay Garin world tour and good Garin they could not have found a better more personable more charisma matic individual is sort of the John Glenn type as tens of thousands horrid events where they got a glimpse of their hero and and had that attraction that people liked and so he becomes really affected. Pr Guy for the Union year behind Garin success of course was Soviet chief rocket engineer Sergei Korolyov he had pulled off yet another remarkable feat even more remarkable actually given that he had suffered a heart attack just a few months before quo yeah of was still experiencing having health problems from his time in the Gulag plus he was feeling the stress of some new friction between him and Khruschev on top top of the stress of his demanding work but for now he had another win to celebrate less than a week later the newspaper headlines turned even grimmer for the Kennedy Administration in the Bay of Pigs invasion went horribly wrong. It was supposed to be a covert. CIA operation to overthrow Fidel Castro's astros communist government in Cuba. It ended up being a very overt cold war failure for the United States. We intend the profit from this lesson. Community has to stand up and take the blame for it publicly. We intend to intensify our efforts for a struggle in in many ways more difficult than war disappointment will often accompany us and that Soviet success with Garin and that American failure at the Bay of pigs creates an environment where Kennedy says in essence. I have to change the subject. How can I get out of this mess mm-hmm and at that point he signals to his vice president Lyndon Johnson? What can we do in space that we can beat the Russians served? Let's first or foremost thing Eisenhower had rolled his eyes that what he saw as the false hysteria over Soviet space spectaculars there's and dramatic headlines Not Kennedy Kennedy didn't personally know a lot or care a lot about space but he understood understood that images mattered that they were possibly even more powerful than the reality behind them and that lead suspect to the moon in most telling of the space race. This is where the story begins Kennedy's decision to go to the moon is the opening line but there is a narrative track classic mythology calm in media race. That's Latin for in the middle of things it's when you start a story right in the midst of the action. The ILIAD starts in the middle of the Trojan war. The Odyssey's starts with Odysseus held captive partway through his voyage and now perhaps we realized that our American myth the the Apollo story starts in medias race to Kennedy's Moonshot decision looks like the beginning but it's actually Salihi the very middle of the moon tail so much has led to this moment so much that often gets obscured and not talked about going to the moon was not a foregone conclusion. It wasn't obvious it wasn't inevitable up until this point in the story. No one in power not even Kennedy was thinking of moon travel as a real option at all so why when Kennedy is battered heard by the Bay of Pigs and by jury guarantee flight is the idea of going to the moon the thing that gets into his head. Why did Kennedy decide that should be the goal well? He didn't at first on April twenty first nineteen sixty one so a week after guarantees flayed and in the midst of the fallout from the Bay of Pigs Fiasco Kennedy gave a news conference he had to answer reporters questions about the space race and Kennedy actually came off as surprisingly pessimistic the president's don't you agree. We should try to get to the moment before there. I suppose if we can if we can get to the moon before the Russians that we should doesn't it your responsibility to apply the the vigorous leadership to spark up this program. When you say the program I have to make a judgment based on the best information when we can get whether we can be ahead of the Russians to we're now talking about a program which may be which many years away and I just say to you regardless of how much much money we spend on the sat and the sat going to put us we still going to be second? Question is whether the nuclear rocket or other kinds of chemical rockets offer us a better hope nope of making a jump forward but we are second in the and this added will not put us first so in other other words. JFK wasn't sure there was any point investing further in a space program at all and yet something was happening behind the scenes scenes that would change his mind in private. He sent a letter to Vice President Lyndon Johnson. He said pulled together immediately a recommendation of what we could do in space that would actually give us a win on the world stage now. I really wanted to see this letter letter. JFK sent to Johnson firsthand so I went up to Boston to the Kennedy Library and archives so this is actually the letter that John Kennedy sent so you can see his signature here. I met there with Jamie. Roth Madonna di director so this is what he sent to the vice president. Do we have a chance of beating the Soviets associates by putting a laboratory space whereby a trip around the moon or by rockets to land on the moon or by a rocket to go to the moon and back with a man is is there any other space program which promises dramatic results in which we could win and that right there is I think a very he idea for the president a dramatic result which we could win and then Johnson had weep to find that information out and report back to the President Johnson with his big Texas drawl when over to Jim Webb Edmund new head of NASA which meant walking like a block from the White House Johnson goes out begins to talk to the people at NASA and says okay. What can what can we do here? Guys told me everything about where our space program stands. Tell me where we're behind Tony. If you have any great ideas for something we could do where we could actually beat the Soviet the Union we need some great space publicity right now so webb who's really new to all this stuff turns turns to his number two and NASA Hugh Dryden who'd been working on aeronautics for the government for a decade guys youngest. PhD's Johns Hopkins ever NASA's Chief Historian Bill Barry PhD Like Nineteen and Yours PhD dissertation on Supersonic Flight Hugh Dryden is this smart space guy with round glasses and pursed lips knows the INS and outs of everything the government could possibly due in space interesting guy. brilliant character does all this great stuff but he apparently annoyed a number of people borne Congress and he had some enemies on the hill which is why Johnson and Kennedy didn't consider him for the very top spot at NASA anyway so web turns to Dryden and says what could we suggest the president to Dryden says what could we suggest you'd never ask ask turns out. The scientists at NASA knew exactly what they wanted to convince Kennedy to do. They had just been waiting for an opening. They wanted to go to the moon. NASA had already been working up its dream plan with the help of internal leaders like Dryden and von Braun step one was to put up space capsule with personal board just to see if you can survive in space and that was essentially project mercury their second step was to build a winged reusable Zabol vehicle that would make it relatively easy to go back and forth to Earth the third step was to build a space station in Earth orbit that that winged cleaned reusable vehicle a space shuttle if you will would go up to rendezvous and dock with and the next step beyond that was is to dispatch from that space station a mission to the moon and ultimately to Mars in an oral history that tried in later gave to to the Kennedy Library he talked about how these plans had been floating around NASA even before Johnson came to speak with him in fact they he had tried selling Eisenhower on the idea a couple years earlier without any luck these studies channel internal acid. I thought that perhaps a new principal reverse president Eisenhower's project mercury and when you're trying to get at some position make proposals basis for optimism that that would be reversed at his bio. Was it coming through sales pitch so but fast forward to April and suddenly it looked like the moon shot might have a chance after all Johnson was is there specifically asking them for big ideas the workers that NASA had convinced Dryden who convinced Webb who then delivered the following recommendation condition to Johnson about moon landing and we can do that but we have to set the deadline so far into the future that the Soviets is can't sign can't use big rocket and beat us because they had a bigger rocket so we have to do something else and so that's where they hit up on a human landing on on the moon by the end of the decade that we give them enough time to be successful as long as they put the effort into it Johnson wrote in his recommendation and week later to Kennedy. You really need to consider a moon mission. Mr President Kennedy Library has the actual letter that Johnson wrote pushing this moon idea so here's a memo for the president was written by Vice President Johnson only rape great before we yes. It was high-priority markings that we're seeing about fifth so this is this could be the president's copy. He did like to doodle so it wouldn't be surprising if he he made these types of little squiggly lines but the other the other markings of you can see that this was really confidential and of course it was a declassified document this this was classified at the highest levels because it dealt with space and Kennedy had asked are we leader. Are we moving fast. Are we doing everything takes takes that we can to be leaders in the space program and Johnson's response was no. We're not doing everything we could. At this point he also. I goes on to say that it's GONNA cost five hundred million dollars to jump start the program that we are behind in the technology we are working on different ideas about the fuel whether we're going to do nuclear or liquid could feel those things but he's really saying to. The president were far behind where we ought to be but then he addresses Kennedy's question. What can we do about it? In Johnson's response he specifically mentions that a manned moon landing tonight be just the thing to get ahead Johnson points out that it would have quote great propaganda value and also that it is quote food is essential as an objective Johnson was sold but Kennedy got this note from his vice president and he wasn't as shore as you'll recall Kennedy and Johnson had different backgrounds and different political instincts so they decided to have a meeting in the Oval Office to discuss it. Jim was present as an acid administrator. I I think there is at least one person from the DOD and and they talked about what are the options and and Johnson laid out the Apollo. What became the Paul Program helped by the NASA folks who were there Lyndon Johnson by personality was very determined person Dan who was a political force in the White House Margaret Way to camp and so when he had something in his head that he really really wanted it was hard to dissuade him of that what if Johnson and web were leading the president astray this was a really big gamble Kennedy listened and he weighed the costs and benefits it was an ambitious goal but it was something something that NASA and his science advisers were telling him was achievable and that could be done with the technology that they had so he's thinking thinking about the international stage? She's thinking about national prestige and he's thinking about that worldwide reaction. What could we do get the world's attention person Kennedy give a hoot about space exploration? What do you care about was beating the Russians Nassim Spill Berry and this was kind of his desperation hail? Mary pass the the Soviet propaganda on that issue by moving the goalposts. Everyone's there in the room telling Kennedy. Look look what this does for us it helps us save face if the Soviets beat us to any more incremental space achievements it puts the US goal post host at the end of the decade which means we can brush off any stunts the Soviets do between now and then of course something. We're you just go see if the Russians do something we just go so what we'll see you on the moon Yuri Gagarin's flight the Bay of Pigs Disaster Kennedy was this one two three only three months into his presidency and already he was facing down a massive image problem he he needed an escape hatch diversion something to change the fate. He saw barreling his way see are you on the moon. What a crazy idea was it inspired inspiring in ninety see also strategic it was forged of pressure and anxiety and necessity in war and saving face and competition all the ugly things that make us human it was born of all things good and bad a month later? Kennedy arrived at Capitol Hill in in his presidential motorcade walked into the House of Representatives the largest room all of Congress he walked down the center center aisle to a full hall of Clapping Senators and representatives he climbed the steps. The lectern Keach Linden Johnson's John He shook the hand of John McCormack Speaker of the house then he turned and faced the huge crowd a giant American flag draped from the press gallery behind him he set down his papers. He leaned toward the microphone preferment and he started his speech hang on the next episode of Moon Rise. Kennedy's doubts grow Oh he thinks what have I done and he tries to undo it. Moon rise is a Washington Post audio podcast. It's the result of the work of producer Bishop Sand Project Coordinator Alyson michaels those are designer Courtney Khan and director of audio. Just stall extra. Thanks for the editing help of Carol Alderman. Our podcast president was hosted by the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. The experts who appeared on this episode we're Bill Barry Chief Historian of NASA Asa Roger Alana's a former chief historian of NASA. Jamie Roth the deputy director at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library. Sorry Kate Scott in associate historian in the Senate historical office and Margaret White Camp a curator at the national air and Space Museum Ziam archival recordings came from the John F Kennedy Presidential Library the Dwight D Eisenhower where presidential library NASA the Russian History Audio Archives of the Wilson Centers Kenan Institute critical past and the United States Information Agency enjoying the podcast recommended to a friend. We'd love your help spreading the word about it. I'm Lillian Cunningham. Dan The creator and host of moon rise. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with chapter nine. Be One important thing for me who had bothered
JFK and the Secret Tapes
"The Moon Rise podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse from the Moon to Mars Lighthouse is proud to support NASA and the space industry with the right tools technology science and innovation they need for their most critical missions learn more light owes dot com slash space the President John F. Kennedy entered the House of Representatives and walked down the center aisle. It was may twenty fifth nineteen sixty st one. He was getting ready to Pitch Congress on going to the moon his vice president and the leaders at NASA better have been right. This better be a genius plan. He climbed the steps to the lectern and then he turned to face the Sea of lawmakers. He leaned toward the microphone on and he started his speech. These are extraordinary times and we face an extraordinary challenge our strength as well as convictions at imposed upon this nation the role of leader in freedom's cause was is a speech to a joint session of Congress. This is space historian writer. Alania and it's got all kinds of stuff in the congress a negative to establish a breakdowns and enlarge disarmament agency but the big centerpiece of this is the Moon Landing Kennedy left the moon announcement until last fast and he worked his way up timid by saying we ought to win the battle but is now going on around the world between mm freedom and tyranny the dramatic achievements in space which occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to us all as did the sputnik in nineteen fifty seven the impact of this adventure on the minds of men everywhere in other words and what I'm about to propose to you is something that can help us win over the minds of people across the world convince them that Democrac- Z. Not Communism is the better way forward since early in my term equity space have been under review with the advice of the vice president who is chairman of the National Space Council. We have examined where we strong and where we are not where we may succeed and where we may not now it is time to take longer strive. I'm great new American enterprise time. I'm for this nation to take a clearly leading role in space achievement which in many ways may hold the key to our future on earth she forward the plan big idea. I therefore at the congress above and beyond the increases creases earlier requested for face activities do provide the fund which needed to meet the following national goal famous words are I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth her no singles faith project in this period will be more impressive to mankind or more important for the long range expiration of space and then he goes on to talk about this is something that will be hard to do and non-mobile so difficult or expensive to accomplish yeah. I think we should do it. Think it's the right thing to do but it's going to be very expensive is going to be very time consuming and if we do not commit to doing doing the full thing. Let's not start now and ultimately it's you congress has to decide on whether or not we do this. He had he had a paragraph in speech that talked about let it be clear and this is a judgement which the numbers of the Congress must finally made let it be clear. I am asking the Congress on the country to accept a firm commitment to a new course of action a cost which were lost for many years and carry very heavy cost five hundred thirty one million dollars in fiscal sixty two and estimated seven to nine billion dollars additional over the next five years. If we OUGHTA go only halfway or reduce off sites in the face of difficulty in my judgment it would be better not go at all at the end of the speech. He Ad Libs again with the same thing. This is going to be hard. It's going to take a longtime cost a lot of money and if you don't want to see it through tell me now. Let's not do it and there's no sense in agreeing lien or desire and United States taking a survey position in outer space unless we are prepared to do the work and bear the burden to make success we are not we should decide today if Congress clapped while a little bit. It didn't sound very enthusiastic. He didn't get a standing ovation when he had just asked Congress to fund sending a spaceship to the moon and they were applauding like like they couldn't really care less he left. Capitol Hill ducked into the presidential motorcade and headed back to the White House. Wondering what on Earth have I done. million came with the Washington Post to miss is you is British explorer. George Mallory was to die on Mount Everest was asked why did he want climate. You said because it is ah basically and we're going to climbin and the phone on the planet and new to hold phonology doubts. It was the first public announcement Kennedy made about going to the moon and already doubts were creeping in. Maybe it was a bad idea. Didn't they see his rationale. We went to the moon in the nineteen sixties for very specific geopolitical a your political purposes absent those geopolitical purposes. We probably wouldn't have done it. Kennedy didn't announce the moon goal because he thought the science sense of it was important because the dream spoke to him in some profound spiritual way no he was committing to it because he wanted to achieve something thing right here on earth. It was because of global alignment to win the hearts and minds of the public. They were competing for global influence. They were in front of an international audience. That's an essential part of what made the space race a race why we were in it in the first place. This is teasing them. Um We're harmony curator the Apollo collection of the national air and Space Museum often when people think of the space race or project Apollo they focus on the competition between the United States and the Soviet Union without asking about the nature of that competition and what they were competing for in the wake of World War Two hard power so like invading countries and conquering them into submission that had fallen out of favor in fact many countries previously under colonial rule had recently gained into their independence Algeria Nigeria Senegal Uganda India Malaysia just to name a few all these newly independent countries were choosing what kind of government they wanted to be and what allies they wanted to have. Kennedy wanted them to choose democracy and America Project Apollo is one of the prime examples of soft power. You're the United States or the Soviet. The Union and you want an empire. You want to rule the world. Don't force these countries to bend to your will entice them put on a show. The idea of sending humans to the moon was almost deliriously bold but it would prove that the united rated states had the technology the money that firepower and the determination to be a superpower the superpower the ally ally of choice and Apollo is the perfect story to support look bad idea that is if the United States could pull it off. Kennedy was already starting to wonder if he she had just totally politically miscalculated. How is he going to win over the hearts and minds of the planet if he couldn't even even get his own congress excited about it. Ted Sorensen the president's speechwriter had sat on the sidelines and watched Kennedy deliver the address to Congress and Ted Sorensen was a brilliant word Meister He's the guy who wrote ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country from Kennedy's inaugural. JFK had come off a little uncertain. Sorenson thought and plus the president usually never swerved from his script. It seemed like a sign of his doubts that Kennedy had thrown in that extra unplanned emphasis at the end about how if Congress doesn't want to do this. Just tell me now they left. Capitol Hill together on the way back to the White House after that speech to Congress. He's in the Limo with Ted Sorensen writing the two miles back to sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue on this Spring Day. The weather was climbing into the eighty s but they both were full suits and ties. Sorenson had black framed glasses. Kennedy was despondent. He tells Sorenson. I think these guys are going to go for this. you know they didn't exactly we stand up and cheer when I now we're going to do this and and Sorenson says it'll be fine. Mr President Lyndon has got everybody everybody under him under control and Vice President Lyndon Johnson did have it under control. He was a master of the Senate. He knew how to he knew how to manipulate people. Before Kennedy even stepped foot on Capitol Hill Johnson had made the rounds in Congress sealing up support in advance advanced for the Moon Project. You start buttonholing the leadership and saying okay. Here's what we WANNA DO WANNA. Do you know can do we have the votes. He had it all lined up so maybe. Kennedy didn't know that her fully realize it or maybe thought they changed your mind when he was concerned that they might not support poured it but there was never a question. Johnson had an all wrapped up before they gave the speech whether Kennedy knew that or not or believed it would work or not. He arrived back at the White House that day worrying. Something had gone wrong. He was thinking about what to do something something clever that could get him out of this spot. Khrushchev greeted at the station at the arrives Babel's. President Kennedy is next time this team at flies in from the rival the bigger than the American embassy and the first problem only about a week later Kennedy met with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. They had a summit in Vienna to try to diplomatically resolve some Cold War tensions. The mean discussion was the fate of Berlin. It was the first and the only time that these two heads of state would confront each other face to face but Kennedy Kennedy still had the moon on his mind this is somebody brought him the number. What's IT GONNA cost Perrin mccurdy author of space in the American imagination back back then twenty one to twenty five billion dollars a huge part of the federal budget. His budget director tells him NASA is going to break the bank with this moon program it would just plant the economic development agency and all of this the Working WanNa do an education and cities would eat up all that money it was the largest civilian alien technology program in the US history outstripped the Panama Canal. Manhattan project was just such a massive scale so Kennedy's thinking King of the United States to do. Can we figure a way out of this. That's the crazy thing Kennedy's trying to get out of the commitment. He had an idea ball Kennedy he was here in Vienna for the summit. What if he invaded Khruschev to go to the moon with him turning this into joint project with the Americans and the Russians doing this together together it would save the US a ton of money it would look like a diplomatic breakthrough and frankly it would eliminate the risk of failing publicly Likley so Kennedy gave it a shot history has mostly buried this fact but he actually proposed opposed to this Roy Kirsh off aside and say you'll is discovered this. Let's go together together and and initially Khrushchev says was something with talking about but the more he thought about it. The more Khruschev reasoned wait a joint program would give the Americans a real good understanding of what we can do and can't do in space and by by extension what we can and can't do with our nuclear deterrent that seemed problematic plus so far this space as competition have been great for Khrushchev these he's finally going to Tooley. Can you beat the United States and the Soviet Union look good and embarrassed the United States with within. That's the one thing he really needs. Barry chief NASA historian a crucial soft through Kennedy's. The Kennedy's objective was to take the embarrassment of so his one S in space all time off the table and it's really his objective so okay we he's a beach it to the moon moved the goalpost to the end of the decade and that's one way we can end it or other ways. Will you know collaboration in so it's a race anymore. It's working together in space. F- either either one of those things is great for Kennedy horrible for so we had no real incentive to do nonetheless. Kennedy did raise it again the next day and and Khrushchev says well over again. It's something we're talking about but I really think we need to do something about Nuclear-test-ban Treaty and maybe some sort of Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty before we go down that road so Khrushchev Killed Kennedy's hopes of joining forces to go to the moon and that was the end of it joint lunar program never gets off the ground. Kennedy felt he had blown it and Vienna. All of his diplomatic tactics at the summit had actually gone pretty poorly the discussion in about Berlin included two weeks later back in the United States. The Soviet ambassador paid a visit to the president of the White House. He had something to give Kennedy from Khruschev. It was a puppy in the ambassador said your wife the first lady she asked Chairman Khruschev over dinner in Vienna about one of the dogs we sent into space. This is stroke gus puppy. It's a gift Kennedy had no option but to take the puppy its name was pushing the Russian word for for fluffy and it was fluffy. It was a fluffy little mount with wait for and gold tipped ears and it would live at the White House in the humiliation was piling on he was barely into his presidency and already Kennedy had the Yuri Rica Garen fight the Bay of Pigs the moon announcement he regretted the botched meeting in Vienna and now this a fluffy queued you'd mortifying reminder of the Soviet lead in space and a reminder of Kennedy's failed summit with Khrushchev which Kennedy me had called the worst thing in my life in nineteen sixty one was something of a rocky first year for Kennedy. When it came to space he committed to the moon he tried to get out of it. Alan Shepherd became the first American to go to space but he only went up and down. He didn't orbit like you're a Garin had already done plus Gus Grissom who was the second. US astronaut to go into space he had a nearly disastrous landing in the summer of sixty-one shortly after the botched Vienna Summit Chris flew up to space briefly then when his capsule landed in the sea the the hatch blew open prematurely and the capsule and GRISSOM's spacesuit flooded with water and he nearly died but as nineteen nineteen sixty-one turned into nineteen sixty-two the Apollo programs started to rev up in one thousand nine hundred thousand one in Congress had given NASA budget of almost seven hundred and fifty million dollars to support the new space flight program by nineteen sixty two congress increased it again to more than one point two billion and by that February John Glenn successfully completed his orbit around Earth conquering hero John H Glenn. He left his star agreements white as pathways the President Kennedy who was getting more comfortable embracing his commitment. We have a long way to go in the space race and we started late but this is the new ocean and I believe the United States must sail on it despite. JFK's initial concerns concerns public enthusiasm for the program was growing John Glenn Sloan Jr had been watched on television screens across the country. The networks Steven Prime I'm coverage and Saifi figures in particular were eager to help the space program alone L. Ron Hubbard the former astounding magazine writer and the scientology founder he wrote Kennedy a long ladder in nineteen sixty two. He offered to provide ride scientology counseling for the astronauts to further improve their accuse. The government did not take him up on that offer. Ray Bradbury the author of Fahrenheit four fifty one also wrote Kennedy a letter saying that he'd spent his whole writing career thinking about space and science fiction and he would love to help the administration in any way needed. Kennedy need did respond to that letter and he thanked him. ooh. The Kennedy Library up in Boston has a large archive of these presidential letters as well as old White House tapes heaps and oral histories and one of the old interviews it has is with Rocketeer Werner von Braun the details and his interview interview gave me this ferry vivid picture of how Kennedy interacted with the Apollo Program in September of nineteen sixty two so almost a year and a half after his moon speech to Congress Kennedy decided to visit a number of the space facilities around the country and his I was NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville Alabama von Braun gave the president a tour for a few hours along with Vice President Johnson and NASA Administrator Jim in Web. He showed them the Saturn rocket under construction in and the Saturn five was enormous. Just this first stage of the rocket. It was one hundred and thirty eight feet high. It was so tall that it couldn't stand up in the workshop. It had to lie on its side. Von Braun walked the president passed it and they looked like ants when the Saturn five was complete it would be taller than the Statue of Liberty in that interview von Braun gave he recalled that Kennedy turned to him at one point during the tour and said. Do you think we've bitten bitten off more than we can chew. The scale of this undertaking was hitting Kennedy von. Braun said no Mr President if Congress keeps up the funding. I think we have a good chance of getting to the moon. The Moon in writing podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse Deep Space is calling and lighthouses helping the Space Industry's innovators answer the call for modernizing Nasr's enterprise. It Eh to processing over thirty five thousand pounds of mission critical supplies each year to keep the international space station fully operational lighthouse delivers the it engineering and science to advance today's most important space capabilities learn how at lighthouse dot com slash space after a few hours von. Braun was supposed to bid farewell to the president who is headed straight to Florida to get a similar tour of Cape Canaveral but von Braun had gotten to chatting with vice president and right before they were about to leave Johnson asked Fawn Brown. Why don't you hop aboard Air Force to tag along with us for the rest of the trip. Von Braun was not one to say no oh so he climbed aboard the vice president's plane no toothbrush no change of clothes of course no cell phone at that time he left behind his staff at the Marshall Space Flight Center and he jetted off on this multiday adventure across the other space centers of the South it down in Florida at Cape Canaveral. They walked around the Massive Rocket Launch Complex Kennedy Eddie wore a pinstripe suit and he squinted up at this skyscraper scaffolding of the launch pads then he'd slip on his sunglasses before taking them off again they looked at mercury capsules they met with large crowds of site workers shook hands with astronauts. WCHS US based capital the president or the long chat with Waldron. 'em Shera Center our next men and Kennedy had set all of this in motion. It was hard to tell if he was proud or afraid of this thing he had unleashed. Maybe both the next day they arrived lived in Houston. It was a blazing hot day for a speech especially with the humidity von Braun road in in an air conditioned Cadillac limousine as part of the presidential entourage but he was still sweltering President Kennedy on the other hand road the forty minutes or so to Rice University stadium in an open convertible the strong Texas Sun beating down on them. Kennedy delivered his speech from the field of the stadium. No she'd gene insight we meet at a college noted for knowledge and they said he noted for progress mm-hmm noted for strength and we stand in need of all three opening lines might not be too familiar but this would become one of Kennedy's means most famous presidential speeches and that's because of the part he said about the moon why some say the move why choose this as our goal and they may well ask why climb the highest mountain why thirty five years ago fly the Atlantic it was crafted by his speechwriter Ted Sorensen Rice Lake Texas but that line was a last minute addition from Kennedy. The speech had the grandeur and the poetry and the delivery that was missing from the one he gave Congress choose to go to the mall. I think we choose to go to the MOV-. We choose to go to the moon and this and do the other thing not because they are easy because they may call that gold will serve organize. Johnson sat right behind him listening his sunglasses on. He unbuttoned his jacket. He wiped the sweat off his neck with a handkerchief. Spectators flapped their hats in their face like fans but if you watch the video of the speech and you keep your eyes on Kennedy you never know it was scorching hot. He had come a long way from the attended senator announcing his presidential run in the Senate caucus room because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept one we are unwilling to both bone and one we intend to win the others the soaring hopeful pros of Kennedy's speech may give the impression that he had been won over by the Grand Promise of scientific achievement men to the moon shot represented not exactly later that fall of nineteen sixty two JFK they had a meeting in the Oval Office that laid bare his views on space. There was a secret recording made of this meeting reading and it's incredible. It's so cool. It's like you listen to. It and it's like you're a fly on the wall for Kennedy's moon conversations in the White House it took about forty years from the conversation for the Kennedy Archives to find this recording and make it public. Good things come to those who made the the whole process of declassifying information is is is complex. This is Jamie Roth the deputy director of the Kennedy Library. We didn't know about the tapes until after the Watergate scandal happened. Nixon talked about how presidents had taping system but once they were found and then declassified and finally released the audio gave a really amazing window into Kennedy's Kennedy's views on the moonshot particularly this recording of the Oval Office meeting in the fall of sixty two. The tape is a bit hard to make out clearly in spots but I'm obviously going to play it for you anyway because it's so fascinating this is November twenty first nineteen sixty two at the White House and Kennedy is arguing with NASA administrator. Jim Webb about the progress of the Apollo Program. You know I do not. I think you were okay so JFK's asking Jim Webb here. If if the Moon Program is Nastase top priority and web actually says No. He says we have a bunch of top priorities and Kennedy. He's like Whoa stop right there. Clear Kennedy political the region work. The president is saying like it or not. We are doing this for international geopolitical reasons and we are in a race here. Web starts to push back on him saying listen soon. This is hard. NASA might need more time and resources to pull this off web says that live under the condition addition and the President's science advisor Jerome Wiesner cuts in the service and we're making the wildest guess sure they're all going back and forth and they're getting kind of riled up. The scientists are like we need you to support all all these other space science initiatives that will help us get to the moon we can't actually land there unless we put some time and money into figuring out these related space. Speiss challenges and Kennedy's Lake. Let me be very clear. There's only one reason we're spending this kind of money and even going to the moon at all to beat the Russians that we do order to get all of the ball every time. They believe that we've told people were preeminent in space. No one believes us. It's like what we need is to just get to the moon. It's fun to listen to the dynamic and the tension and seeing the president asking questions and and and really discovering what he's looking for and web giving it back to the president on bit saying you know what you're talking about and can use your right. I don't I am not interested enough. Now should be sending money because I'm not that interested. Statement gets good. We ought to know about it. Reasonable to whip partner by in Asia is to be damn where I'm not that interested in space. That's the big takeaway. Though the only justification to do it is because we hope to be them Kennedy as real from conversations that happened in the White House. It's that they're on tape now. We Kennedy really didn't care about the space program Nasa Bill Barry again but Web saw the space program is a is a very different if you did just what the president asked you to do which is sending people are GonNa get back. All you're really doing is a political spectacular which really has has no basis in reality and you so web is making the argument throughout the sixties whenever he meets the president that you know we need to have a robust based program we need. We may be studying the planet's. It's we need to be doing research. All kinds of things not just building a rocket. This in three is to the moon and Kennedy's not interested the tension between Kennedy Mighty and web kept bubbling up over the course of the following year Kennedy's a Boston. Your Democratic Democrat politician and web is an old southern boy who's used to talking a lot and explaining things and making his pitch and so they really roussel oil water in many ways by this point Kennedy's fears all along about the moon race look like they're going to come true. Congress was starting to lose interest in spending all this money. The program schedule was falling behind and Kennedy was now going into an election year with this albatross around his neck L. and it didn't help that his predecessor in the White House had been publicly criticizing his decision to go to the moon. He's Gone Eisenhower out there. WHO's constantly talking talking about how this is a stupid idea and he never would have done it himself and it is just an example of this rich playboy who's not very bright and who has no strategic ability to understand what's going on and he makes bad decisions and all that stuff imprint so if every Republican looking running for office uses as talking points against Kennedy it could be bad in September nineteen sixty three Kennedy and web had one more difficult meeting in office about the moon race. Kennedy was blunt with him that there haven't been any recent program achievements which which was a real problem for his reelection campaign. Then Kennedy Tells Charles Webb that Congress is probably going to reduce the funding and Kennedy asks him will the timing of the moon landing slip if that happens. It's for the year. We we running in just in case you had trouble totally catching. That Kennedy asked him point blank. Even if I get reelected acted we won't be pulling off a moon landing before him out of office. Will we and Webb said no no. We won't while this was just great. Kennedy had been convinced to pitch this wildly expensive utterly ambitious idea and and now congress was drying up the funding NASA couldn't make its deadlines and Kennedy was facing down a reelection bid looking naive and wasteful Foale and ineffective. It was time for one last hail. Mary only two days later Kennedy went up to New York to give a speech each of the United Nations it was September twentieth nineteen sixty three and he gave an old idea one more try he stood before the UN and he proposed once more to the Soviet Union this time in public the idea of healing they're cold war rivalry Tori and going together to the moon. Why should man's various flight to the moon be a matter of national competition. Fi should the United States and the Soviet Union in preparing for such expeditions become involved in immense duplications of research construction and expenditure. Surely we should explore whether the scientists and astronauts of ought to countries indeed of all the world cannot work together in the conquest of space. There is room for new cooperation a joint expedition addition to the moon but the thing is then nothing happened. The Soviet Union didn't respond with a resounding yeah. Let's go. It actually didn't respond at all. It was as if the president hadn't said anything. Kennedy was just left in limbo wondering what to do now keep pushing for a joint project abandoned the whole thing press on alone own autumn said in the trees near the White House changed their colors and they lost their leaves November member sixteenth nineteen sixty three Kennedy went down to visit Cape Canaveral again he was thinking through what in the world to due Brown was there. The president sat through a presentation on the launch vehicles that NASA ASA was building for the Apollo Program. There were charts and models of the various rockets on display. Kennedy got up and walked it over to them. He reached out to a model that was about a foot tall he said so. This is the redstone it was a replica of the rocket that had sent the first two mercury astronauts to space in nineteen sixty one he took it in his hand and he held it up next to one of the other models which was taller than Kennedy and are these models to the same scale. He asked yes they were that was the Saturn five rocket rocket. That would send three men to the moon. He looked around at the engineers and said Gee looks hike. We've come a long way. Brown remembered this moment and years later. He said there was something like a boyish enthusiasm about him. At the same time D. he please sincere afterwards. Kennedy boarded a helicopter here at Cape Canaveral and he viewed the launch complex from the air concrete bunkers and metal towers and giant rockets that started the coastline alongside the reads and the crates uh the helicopter turns and it flew out thirty miles over the the ocean. It landed on a navy ship and the president got out onto the deck. He watched a Polaris Missile Launch from a nearby submarine submarine. The ocean rumbled and then a rocket shot out from beneath the waves and into the sky it was late. November and the air was chilly but blue Kennedy had the wind in his his face but was smiling. That was the last time Werner von Braun saw him and he had an invitation to the White House von Braun and his WII for supposed to have dinner with the president and Jackie Kennedy but the dinner there was scheduled for about a week later Monday November twenty fifth that would end up being the day that John F. Kennedy Eddie was buried on the next episode of Moon Rise. Lyndon Johnson takes over the presidency and the Apollo program program and Sergei Korolyov returns. Thank you so much for listening to the Moon Rise podcast. We're nearing the final final few episodes in the series. If you want to support more of the journalism the Washington Post there's a special subscription discount for moon rise listeners. I just go to Washington Post. com slash moon rise offer moon rise is a Washington Post. Audio podcast is the result of the amazing work of producer Bishops Sand Project Coordinator Alyson Michaels our designer Courtney Con Director of audio install and the editing help of Carol Alderman. Our podcast launch event was hosted by the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. The experts who appeared on this episode were Bill Barry Chief Historian of NASA Roger Llamas a former chief historian of NASA Howard Howard mccurdy a space policy professor at American University Tisdale Moore Harmony the curator of the National Erin Space Museum's Apollo collection the author of Apollo to the moon and Jeannie Ross deputy director at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library archival recordings in this episode came from the John F Kennedy Presidential Library the United Nations NASA critical past. I'm William Cunningham the Creator and host of moon rise. Thank you so much for listening and we will be back next week with chapter your ten a great leader is Dan. A great nation must move on yesterday is not hours to recover but Tamara is ours to win our to Lou. I am resolved that we shall win tomorrow's before so I asked you to join me that abso- determine from this who are you the more
Jason Beem Horse Racing Podcast 2/25/20--Guest Wayne Catalano
"Thank maximum security has been defeated king for a day. This is the Jason Beam. Horseracing podcast brought to you by twin. Spires your daily home for Horse Racing News interviews wagering discussions and more. Here's your host. Jason Be Khuranna. Good Tuesday morning. You're looking into the Jason Beam horse racing podcast brought to you by twin spires. It's February the twenty fifth. Happy to be with you here on this Tuesday trying to get. The voice warmed up a little bit the lingering after effects of a cold. It's bad for someone to voice work. I feel like I've been complaining about that everyday. Start the show. I need to shut up and just do my job. You guys are out working so you probably sick. You probably don't WanNA listen to be fuss about my by my problems but anyway happy to be with you guys here looking forward to a busy Monday show Wayne. Cantillon IS GONNA join US trainer from over at the OAKLAWN. Fairgrounds will talk for talk with Wayne for a little bit about some of the horses in the barn some of his career and look forward to catching up with Wayne. Calloway tomorrow on the show Travis. Demerge the play by play Voice of the Portland Trailblazers will be with us. That's right basketball. We won't talk. What do it's more travis a story? I think it's really fascinating and somebody once told me that as long as your show is fifty one percent horse racing. A horse racing podcast. This'll be one of those few days. We'll we'll leave the world of racing. I think that's okay. It's a little bit of a quiet. You know racy week. I think it's a good time to to have transcends a really neat story how he's risen to become a radio play by play guy in the world of NBA basketball. So looking forward to Travis on Wednesday Thursday Gus. Lonzo join us for horse player Thursday. And of course everybody's in the jury will be back on Friday. We'll look ahead to all the stuff coming up this weekend. Some news pieces that I wanted. I neglected to mention on yesterday's show. But should have was the passing of a p Indy. At the age of thirty weren't fact he would have been thirty two. No no I said it was age thirty. I forget how it works to horses. Spurt Days March thirty first eighty nine so he would be. He would be thirty. Almost thirty one and But they don't they because the way the the APD around thirty thirty one years old passed away this weekend and certainly a big legacy horse in the world of racing because of his success not only on the track but in the breeding shed and people were posting photos with him the other day and it was incredible to see how many people had gone to visit him. It is his days as a stallion. His days as a racehorse you know well. Brit which obviously leads him having staff potential and of course he was very successful on the track but his his mom weekend surprise was a great three winner multiple graded stakes place. Great one place and that his father Seattle slew. Don't tell about his exploits on the race. Track or the the breeding shed. Ap Andy as a two year old got going at del Mar. Didn't win as I start out took. Some money was favored. That day sat off the pace but had a little bit of a wide trip finished fourth but came right back at Santa Anita during the oak tree. Meet to To win one allowance of Bay Meadows. It's so fun to look at the peace from horses in the Eighties Nineties. Because you lot of tracks that aren't around anymore and be you see a. Lotta horses who ran a fair. Bit E. C. Running twice in a month up to Bay Meadows for an allowance. Hey right back down Hollywood for the charity Three weeks later. And it's just need to look at those. Pp's and see all the starts and all the winds too but he rattled off a seven race industry that include the San Rafael Santa Anita Derby the Peter Pan Stakes skipped the Kentucky Derby and then came back to win one of his too. I would say signature wins the Belmont stakes with a short lead circuit twenty awesome parts of the courageous race by these three standing forces. Coming home in the mile in two minutes. Twenty six seconds the second-fastest. It's kind of cool here. And Dave Johnson Jim McKay on those old. Abc broadcasts styles. You're watching that race. You Know He. He really kind of Bose's puts his head down and kind of has a low profile. Stride you know not that maybe a high stride that you're you're used to seeing with the horses but really just kind of you know pins his head down and says all right let's Let's roll and able to win the Belmont it. It's NEAT TO WATCH THE BELMONT STAKES A lot of years because it's just such a test of stamina guts and heart and there's times in that race over the years where youth at the Eighth Pole You. Kinda think your home. And then that lasts that lasts. Furlong can really decide a lot. And this was kind of one of those pine bluff was looked like he was kinda holding him at Bay because APN he comes right up to him at the top of the stretch and AP Andy though that would not be denied and won the Belmont stakes went up to woodbine. And one of the Molson. I'm sorry lost the MOLSON million stakes. It is subsequent. Start after that which was kind of interesting. A huge favourite. That day was three to five and did not hit the board. The show prices weren't crazy though. This was kind of I. Guess before the days of the bridge jumper came back in the Jockey Club Gold Cup with a third place finish so after the Belmont didn't win and was a tepid. Fate wasn't favorite. He was second choice after a bad start that day but the pleasant tap strike. The Gold Devil is doing pool. Some names in there and then of course comes back after those two defeats at Gulfstream Park Mile. And a quarter. Three million bucks on the line as you're two one favourite pleasant tap went off at five to to your second choice. Let's take this back to the the great top dirk and with a call of the great ep Andy and four sizzling pace here as they move into the backstretch. Funder rumble is pressed. Hard under intense pressure from Janis Halo. Technology is trying to keep pace in third defensive players right there now. Racing in fourth position sultry song is fifth zone. Man is only five lakes phone delayed. Jolly I moving strongly as they move into the far turn. Apn these drop back in the pack. Pleasant tap is in between horses now. He's still about seven lakes from the latest and then it's market tree. Is there on the far turn and thunder rumble? Rose to delay played defensive. Plays moved into our the inside. Johnny sales drive. You're working hard to keep up his finding and he's as they move slide a pleasant coming with stories coming splits horses at the top of the stretch and gets through to win the Breeders Cup classic by two lakes over pleasant tap and goes off into the sunset to begin stallion career. That would you know. It's hard to describe what his effect is on the on. The breed bred pulpit of course bread or was tablets. Dad Anwer that group went but mine shaft. Stephen got even Aptitude where the Jackie Gold Cup? It's it's interesting to see. His influence on a lot of these longer races rags to riches and the Belmont Bernardini in the preakness and and so on so forth take charge Indian recent years Honor Code who we know was a fantastic runner and of course through tapping the line just continues on so a major horse in in thoroughbred racing breeding thoroughbred racing history Passed away on February. Twenty first at the age of thirty. So I'm going with Pedia says thirty and Recipes to To a Indie a retirement news that came out and I feel I came out of a little. Bit of nowhere was The announced the retirement of Kofi the filly and Mare sprint champion. Who had just worked A couple of times in recent days three-furlong little workouts and so when I read the announcement from Lbj foxwoods Jamie. Is who I was thinking of. I was a little surprised because we had heard that she was back. You know working out but the announcement was the team would like to thank our champ kaffee to believable ride brain speed. You're so great Cox. You're awesome breach curb blah blah blah blah. It's very difficult decision for all of us. It was the right. One eligible is first and foremost breeding operation. We cannot wait to seek refuge. Babies ON THE TRACK. We look forward to the next phase for life people gateway for him so no mention if there was a an injury or if there was any kind of little setback but I- silent Jay did Retweets someone said You know her. Primary focus is breeding. So that's why they decided to move on the next stage and so so that is that Kofi to the retirement and you know obviously had a huge two thousand nineteen had that that very promising debut and then laid a little bit of Asia in the present they gave her a little time off and the race I might remember most of hers is the Miss Preakness and it was one of those days. I was down in Atlantic City. I was watching it was the day before the preakness and watching all of the hubbub down there. What what's the Borgata was where I was at? And She just ran off the screen that day. It was such an impressive effort at PIMLICO. Go in the six furlongs then got beat. Internet started Churchill that overnight six rock Selena which was like the toughest overnight stakes. I can remember. Mia Mischief was in their coffee and honey bunny. Who isn't a huge name? Was a runner runner. Then of course went onto the test and that great battle against Sarah Getting empress won the Dogwood and then completed her career as least as we know now with the wind in the Breeders Cup World Championships then new skits by girl on the side of Heaven as my Nike Co Thespian Spice Perfection. Three and four wide respectively on the turn now the four of them bunch La Vina sits right behind them and come dancing. It's gotta come going now. She's about seven lengths behind. They went forty four point. Seven eight hundred. A half stretching made a wrong. She has taken over here at the pace. She's two and a half late bell upbeat on the outside trying to talk her down perfectionist. Third Sixty zero becky Bella Vida outside thanks to coming down and cold by Big Pook be done with getting laid on the outside. It's from a little pace today. But she got the job done. You know I really thought Kaffee was GONNA get beat that not just looking you know beforehand at the race but during the race as you heard Larry say had to come from a little bit off it but ended up getting into clear spot after breaking from the rail and able to with three quarter length over Bella Bella Fina Ram big that day but was unable to keep up with the coffy who now goes off into the world of retirement and there was a lot of folks say. Oh it's a bummer. Horse we like going after retirement quote unquote early you know. It's always always a bummer man. It's a bummer. But I'll be honest. I didn't I mean I've interviewed Jamie Roth for Milan. Jane. I don't remember you know. The whole breed were breeding operation. First Line but I get it. And if that's their business and you know they got to be in the business to make money and So that's what they are choosing to do with caffeine. I guess they're not choosing it. You know what I mean you know what I mean. I'm not I'm not being critical of the decision. Just thinking it out Let's get to Wayne Catalano so what we're GONNA do today. So because today is fat Tuesday right. What is it? There's Lundy Gras. Which is Monday and fairgrounds ran today? But they're also running on Tuesday so I want to look ahead to the fairgrounds Tuesday card a little bit. We'll do that after we talked to. Wayne killing our interview not too long. So we'll we'll get to that here in a moment but we come back after that. WanNa talk about the fairgrounds the Mardi Gras stakes seventy five thousand dollars turf sprint. That drew a field of thirteen runners. So looking forward to to that which I kind of I you know I've always said that. Turf Sprinter not my my greatest thing. I do kind of like them at the fairgrounds and I think that extra sixteenth of a mile to me makes a difference and of course it makes a difference. It's an extra sixteenth mile but I feel like sometimes at Gulfstream when your cap in those races you just no? You can't be all that far away. I know I've talked about sweet yard. Dear yesterday coming from laughs and overcoming troll but she was really by the time they turn turn three lengths behind and I feel like fairgrounds with the long stretch the X. Teeth of mile. I just feel that five and a half makes those races a little more interesting and and they opened up just a little bit more and when the pace gets hot which it's it's not really quarter my optics Is supposed to be. You can't set up for some some deep closers. You can't get some prices and I just I dig those turf spreads a little more than maybe your average five furlong turf spreads and Belmont. I love six furlong wants to. I think I think a little longer a little better. When it comes to those five furlongs is just a little bit Ye anyways. Let's Let's get to win Canada. We'll talk more about fairgrounds. After this short time out of a Tuesday Mardi Gras edition of Jason Horse Racing. Podcast brought to you by twin. Spires twin spires is your home for wagering on horse racing from all around the world sign up today and take advantage of our one hundred dollars. Sign up bonus when you wager. Five hundred dollars has a twin spires player. You'll receive free Brisbane at past performances live video race replayed realtime racing information and much more. Plus you can now split. Tickets with other players using bet share of program on twin spires allows players to split their bets with other members for more information visit twin spires dot com twin spires. Not only operas the best way to play the racist from your desktop or mobile device but we also have great offers for our players visit twin spires dot com slash offers to check out all of our great daily promotions from our players. Pick four bonuses to win Sheri- thoroughbred to harness. We have opposite promotions for all types of races and all types of tracks visit twin spires dot com slash offers to find out what offers are available to you all right about here on Jason Morris Racing podcast brought to you by twin spires and please welcome in. Our next guest is multiple grade. One Breeders Cup winning trainer currently running horses at fairgrounds and Oakland pleased to welcome in Wayne Cat. A lot of the show Wayne Houria. Are you on doing good? Appreciate you joining us. I know I know the stables kind of split up this time of year where where do you base yourself at palm split up between the wallet and not spring actually going back and forth. What's the Do you have set travel process because they because they run the same days. Basically right yes. Yeah no not really just GONNA give a couple of narrows just how that works out on the workers and stuff I know getting into that hot springs from play this kind of a pain right because you have to go through little rock. Yeah Wow I've been driving mostly okay. How far is the actually? It's not that far Louisiana's like the next day down. I forget that sometimes. Yeah it's it's a good. I was actually. When when did you start sending horses to Oaklawn? I've been four five years. I guess I'm not sure exactly what they what years was unknown. We've been few times actually won the Aug. Start therapy down team seven. Oh yeah it just seems like I mean it's just. It's a directed down there so much with the person stuff and I imagine it's is it tougher to get stalls there or or are they pretty good about it for everybody not as you know it gets a little complicated but they get money. They get a little tough on them. Will Saturday. You had a A Nice Win fairgrounds with with room to finish. She had real INA Lewis on the lead horse for one going away. What were your thoughts on her effort around? She's always renting good though actually a form. She's you know she's been first or second most on racist when she tries pretty hard. That was not a good ethics bright so a win was she. Didn't want to be forced to be placed up there and quite knowing she didn't like that but other than not racing the rest of the moment. Great Yeah I looked at thirteen to fifteen in the exact and it seems like for the most part you've Kinda kept her at that allowance. Optional claiming kind of level. Do you think the spotting her is kind of been the key to her success. Yeah of course you know. She had a a belt and she probably shouldn't want the state. Run off of it when we first brought it back. Then get the trip. We wanted to run second in the State Chris. Cheer on the state the to the The wind was part of afford a win or four win day rather for Kobe Hernandez Zero Rider. Us much down. They're no not really we use them. You know we like to use the rat race so we just happened to be dealing with his agent He wrote this Philly. Before with Sean Bridge Mansell. We just kind of had a little contact with him and he wound up a car. You know so I know a lot of traders liked to have apart writer and the other guys like to kind of spread the spread things around you have a preference when you when you go to a meat while not not really. I mean we try to ride the leading writers on for seven chain. Illy grads a Lotta horses last week. We we got see manny. Wa- make his twenty twenty debut. He just missed but I have to an encouraging start to his year. Yeah it was. It was a big race. I mean no a little bit more. We probably could have won the race but he ran a big effort. Who's very proud to? He was he was on the Derby trail for for a bit last year. Put it but he really kind of came to life sprinting. After the Pat Day Mile. Did you have it in your head that cutting back was going to be the thing for him you know? I was everybody had done their. Vcu Or not we push him in that spot. He's run a couple of big races early articles and now we figured out you know he's probably out way data sprinter. It seems like the Derby fever thing I mean it seems like if you have a horse that wins a nice made special or a first level. Lao almost kind of have to give it a try. Just because the person money and everything right start him on that race that prompt us to try and mcgann interrupting big races when. Catalano our guest here on the show and I think you've always been associated with Chicago for the Greenwich Success. You've had there over the years but I got thinking was curious kind of how you I ended up going up there because I know you're from down in New Orleans all but you know. Obviously we left home early on we Jackie. We ended up in charge and was Kentucky Chicago a little bit and we landed in Chicago. What was my last thirty self interest and eighty three did you. Did you have family? That was involved in racing as a kid. Or did you kind of come do it on your own? No my brother. Just brother. Company tracked together to Jackie's at their early age of fifteen and stuff like that but not really hit the family. And your your writing. Career got off to Kinda faster I saw. You ruled like seventeen hundred mounts your first couple years as and stuff like that back then now is harming his how it ended up but we we wrote about seven years or ten dollars. We want like seventeen ninety two. We saw secondly rounded them nations to St Coffin. But a lot of apprentices. Do that right like your first couple years. I mean you're just you're hungry and I mean it just seems like so many miles seventeen hundred but I guess. They ran five days a week back then to. Yeah Yeah No. I don't know what the number was pretty. What was it took away from the saddle when I was Had A little bit of an improbable and Mahat was into training. Horses knows what's going to be my next career. Don't want riding races In on after a while when it gets a little slow down van I got one more. Success led to another holiday. We WanNa know what back eight train'll did so so you would actually play on going from Jack into training because I feel like a lot of guys that do that. It's an injury happens. It's like well I guess I'll train but So that was on your your menu for a while. You're you're stable. Saab ously a lot of growth in the two thousand two thousand ten when the stable starts to get real big like that I mean. Is it all fun and a lot of wins or does it become more stressful because you ended up kind of managing a big business at that point? Why don't you know it's it's fun when everything's well and everything you know now? Nowadays Solo stressful took the little fun out of the game with the race tracks. And all the stuff going on you know. It's a little different than it. Used to be the oldest the politics and all that kind of stuff just takes takes the fun out of the game. You know you've you've had so many phillies mayors over the years. Is it just a coincidence that you've had so much success with phillies or or something? Maybe you're you're owners. Tend to to buy more of them. 'cause I mean you look at your at your top horses. I mean it's just a slew of really good phillies. Yeah we've been watching silly. What three three to stop being silly kids some other big crisis? Omar a couple of boys crypto Stein. Derby were you. Can't they're running dumpy? They're being? We had a handful of other one. I rented a lot of good phillies. You guys had a big run at the the Kentucky Oaks Year or so ago with a when they turned for home. You know 'cause we get really did. Yeah we'll wait and really appreciate you taking time for so wish you the best at At Oakland fairgrounds going forward. And you can work on it. We'll be right back after short. Time horseracing podcast brought to you by twin spires. The Jason being burst racing. Podcast brought to you by twin. Spires is your home for daily thoroughbred horseracing conversation. Join host Jason Beam has. He discusses racing from around the country interviews jockeys trainers media personality and horse players every Monday through Friday. The show can be found at twin spires DOT COM or on. I tunes Spreaker Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast from the Jason Beam Horse Racing. Podcast brought to you by twin. And this is the Jason Beam Horse Racing. Podcast brought to you by twin spires. Thanks to wake Catalano for joining US guys. Join the conversation with Wayne canals left getting to have new folks on the program and appreciate the ticket some time force. What are shorter for sure. I the shortest still believe I should go back and check if this is correct was Was Cure McLaughlin. We had him on. I WanNa say maybe like the second month of of doing the show back in two thousand sixteen. I think it was when Mo- Hayman was kind of around and doing his thing and I remember asking. I asked a little bit of a goofball quite. It wasn't a question I asked him. What the proper way to pronounce his name was which normally I will ask you. If there's any kind of confusion on a name I will ask the guest before we start recording. I'll say hey just a double check. You know is pronounced this way or that way. I just want to make sure I get it right. And they'll say oh it's this thanks for asking so I decided to ask it on the air and I was like he's a McLaughlin and McLaughlin he just kinda like it's Glock. Oh okay so and then we moved out of the interview like the first thing I asked was like how Mohammed. What does he goes? He's doing good another. Okay what's he he's training doing get and it was like. Oh no and I think by like the fourth or fifth question. He kind of started to open up a little bit and it went okay but it was probably a five minute interview and I usually always shoot for fifteen to twenty. I mean there are certain gifts where I know. It's going to go a little bit longer. Especially like do a handicapping segment of a sequence or something like that but you know trainers jockeys. I try to keep it to around fifteen minutes. I know they got stuff to do and You want to get through but some folks take an answer and run with it more than others. Since the summer. A little shorter summer a little bit longer but on their forget that. And then I I I did a spoof. The next week where I said I did a fake interview with Kieron and I just did it with the I did it with the voice of him saying he's doing fine doing good so I would just ask him about like seven different horrid because you know he's A. It's a big day in his barn at the time and then I would say oh what are you. What are you doing for tonight? And he's doing fine doing good. I thought it was hilarious. Boss goes why are you trying to my boss time? He's like why. Why do you want to try to make it trader? I'll just have to find? We had a little bit of an awkward interview. Let's let's have some fun with it but he did eat it. Do anything wrong here but it was just. I found it funny so I went with it. You got sometimes you've got to trust your comedic instinct and other times. It completely portrays you. But I've I've done okay trusted by gut on on what I think is good what I think is what are things. Funny things not funny. Let's go over to the fairgrounds where it is Mardi gras today and they start at twelve thirty local time over there so central time. If you're a a fair ground in and I just WanNa talk about some of the races on this car because I thought it was a interesting cartoon beats big track on a quiet Tuesday thought it was a good opportunity just to talk a little horse racing. It started out with with the first race. I've kind of changed how I handicap race. Now I don't want this to be an optics plug because I love. The folks from optics used their product. But I've kind of moved to where I now have a usually use optics as my first thing that I start with and then I go to my net peas and then I'll go to any replays that I wanna see and I think that it's worked a little better for me just in the grand scheme of seeing a race because I feel like I'm starting out with a generalized. Look of of. Maybe how this race is GonNA shape out using the plot using the speed right and contention stuff and in fact. I was talking to a guy at Emerald the other day and it was. Kinda showing him how it works. He's like oh I've heard you talk about that. How does it work and so I kinda showed him? I don't I don't want this to be an optics plug but I'm just trying to go through something. I think has been beneficial for me just as far as seeing a race because sometimes. I think you go through a pass a traditional past performance Britain's past performance. Or if you use something else and you get your name familiar with each wash you know and I think everybody looks at a little different right like some people might just literally dive in First Horse. Let's look at everything we need to know I think my general coach was. I'm going to scan through it. Let me I see. Just how many are in the race? Let me see what the pace kind of looks like. It will be my second thing or let me see. Who is the favourite Kennedy and I feel like with the optics twenty twenty? It's it's kind of plot notes and speed figure stuff and it's all kind of in one area and so for me. It's just a great way to start looking at a race and I looked at this first race for fairgrounds I kind of the the optimum spot is kind of loan you load speed good finisher right like the big square first quadrant which are not gonNA explain how to use optics but this race kind of jumped out a little bit of possibly having a soft pace and look like three horses. That might be kind of out there to their loads of now. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're just gonNA run one two three all the way around you. Know racing is not that easy as with anything. I think that there is sometimes a whenever. There's a new product or whenever somebody tries a new product. I think that the instinct is to think that. Oh this is just gonNa tell me who's GonNa win and I'm GonNa go optics is just data and it's information that the US all the information they have to to give you to try to paint a picture but it's not another this is is biblical and none of it is useful without making good wagers and so again you just want to use any tools you have at your fingertips to try and put yourself into position to have a decent idea of how you think the race is. GonNa play out and also try to have a look at how you think you can get the most money for. In fact. There was a race at Tampa the other day. It was Sunday and it was toward the end of the car. And I don't have I don't WanNa go look it up right now. But essentially myopic plot the two horses. The seven of the eight had nearly identical positions on the surface distance and the regular one So essentially saying you know that saying they're going to run the same race but they're in the same ballpark with how things are gonNA shape how they might finish. The seven was three to five or four or five real short price. The eight was thirty one to one. And so this guy next to me I said look. I said they're they're they're they're almost identical here on the plot so I looked up the the. Pp's seven you know. Looked like certainly like he was going to be a little bit more. They run the race. The seven wins. The eight runs third only beaten a length and a half at thirty one to one and had a little bit of traffic trouble. But it just it just got me thinking you know. I mean if you got two horses with that. You're you're not necessarily that. They're going to run one two or you know they're the exact same but if I'm looking at the two and think you know they're they're just as good. I bet they ate horse right. I'm getting like eighty times the price so anyway but it would have lost and I would have been like Well that's a bummer. But I still would turn it for home if I got a thirty. Two one shot who I think could finish pretty close to that three to five shot and they're near level. I mean the Senate got the jump on. That was really the difference You know no question because I think that horse wins that race. What out of every thirty times against that horse but anyway so to the fairgrounds that first race I thought there was potentially a cup Alone speed horse in space cowgirls six to one of the morning line coming over from Delta and obviously Delta's different than the fairgrounds and the three Horse Lexi of is is the morning line favorite is dropping in class and is coming off of kind of a great trip was very rake and between horses and mcadoo just folded the tent and that was first time against winters. It was fifteen thousand. It was first time to turn. There was a lot of reasons to be forgiving about that. But you're also GONNA have to take a short price going forward which is never all that fun but there's some interesting races. There's a couple of horses throughout the card that I kind of found interesting that I wanted to take another look at In particular couple horses in this a six race it's an eighty thousand dollar optional claiming event and there was one name jumped kind of right to the front of my interests. And that was the seven Zuma Rudy. Because I got to call this horse at colonial and I remember the horse making kind of a flashy move down the inside and Didn't win finish second. But it was seventy five thousand dollar steak and Trim McCarthy was right and I just remember all of a sudden seeing the black and red silk Dr Zinc like rolling up the fence and so I kind of kept an eye on this horse. They tried the sycamore which in the next art which is a great three and he didn't run all bad fifth beaten four and a half. Okay so then. They put him to optional. Eighty fairgrounds as a big favorites. Be Part of an injury but and then last time they tried to Kadalee over Houston and he makes a nice run finishes fourth beaten length and a half kinda not having the greatest early part of the trip. Got Shuffled back. A little bit was wide and so I'm really excited to see this horse at the Ferris. I feel like the long stretch. Should suit him really. Well he's what race at fairgrounds before autographs allowance race and he made the lead early on and drew off. I think he's just gotTa stay a little bit closer things. It's a pretty good sized fields field of nine and the horse. They might barely the number five that I've kind of been following for a little while. And his is kind of similar Zuma Rudy in the sense that you know you see these type of horses a lot in these turf routes horses. The don't win very often that comfort pretty far back and they just kind of be get everything to go their way in terms of pace and set up and it just doesn't happen all that often and especially it seems a little bit more so in these days that writers maybe aren't quite as aggressive it depends on the circuit but you just see a lot of fifties and forty nine and change fifty-one and changes. And it's just tough to close into those kind of things now this particular race. It looks like the number one sailing Solo. I mean what a perfect name the horse might be doing. Just that draw the inside. Looks like loan? Speed led the kernel a year Bradley last time. But did it through twenty two and three forty six thousand four if you look back to the three starts prior to that had three straight soft opening half miles and won all three going up. The class ladder now gets back to the optional eighty and has just no pace opposition. To Emmanuel's I guess could be Kinda close up but if sailing solo is any kind of a price ninety. Two's the morning line. I mean boy. I just can't ask for an easier. Lead this is going to get and the worse has got some ability and if Mitchell Merle utilize speak keeps a cush interns for home it front going to be tough to real in. But I'd be watching that one to go gate to wire. Then maybe my barely Zuma Rudy to come rolling underneath but it's a fun little race and there's actually a couple of Nice races leading into that Mardi gras stakes but the Mardi gras stakes is the feature and big field of thirteen. As I mentioned today go and five and a half furlongs over that fairgrounds grass course which is certainly had plenty of water and I haven't seen the forecasts and might be something worth checking out because it has been been a rough meat from from that sense but I thought was so interesting. Is that bells. The one shows up in here and it's worth no. The thirteen also isn't also eligible. Pels the one though is was the horse that won the grade. Two Raven run a big price for neo pets. They went over to the La Brea. Did Fire Best Shot. Didn't run poorly hard not to love. Who won that day came back to win? Mother mother came back to it. Hard not to love is just our rocket man. She's just cool clothes in Philly sprinter but does the one going to try the the grass. Oddly enough has run on the grass. One time it was at fairgrounds and it was in a stakes race am mile and she won so you know they they try. It's funny 'cause they tried the Ashland. She ran horrible then she ran pretty good. The bells a big price and it didn't really break through until that that raven run but are excited to see her get back on the grass because she also was a perfect one for one on the synthetic and I know they're not the same but they do tend to align more often so really curious to see if if bells one can make him she's going to have to certainly come for maybe a little further back that she wants to and it doesn't look like the pieces of boiling over type. I think break even who is the five to two morning line choice for Brad Cox probably speed of the speed? I actually got seabrook even at Saratoga. And they brought her back in the press and she led all the way to midstretch but she's another one who serve Tokyo. She was on the turf and there was just no other pace types in that race that day but she still went twenty one and forty three. I mean it was hot dry day so I'm sure the course was fast. But they're going to have to come get break even for sure. I mean she but she also has been off since August. She could work at holes in the wind. Louisiana downs just treat race all around. I think there's a couple of interesting storylines horses who maybe aren't at their best turf. Sprinting but Are going to be a you know it's going to be doing. Hotshot I think is is one to watch as far as Good turf sprinters was slow out of the gate last time and I think that Kinda did her in. But she's got a pretty nice closing kick and if she can give jump on some of the other ones and if break even does come back to them that maybe she wanted to watch. But it's going to be a fun day at the fairgrounds looking forward to a nine race card from New Orleans. We'll recap a little bit of it Tomorrow show again traps. Diverse GonNa join us tomorrow. The play by play Voice of the Portland Trailblazers on radio looking forward to that conversation. We'll step away from racing for for twenty minutes or half hour. Travis and I think you guys will really enjoy historic because he does have some racing. He was the announcer at Portland Meadows. After I left he was he took my job. Of course I gave it up still looking forward to that and then Gus Alonzo to join us on Thursday for Horse player Thursday so if you have emails questions comments if you have a topic you want to get to. You can always email me. Jason Charles Beam at mail DOT COM. And I try to get back to you as soon as I can but to look forward to talk with you guys tomorrow everybody enjoy your fat Tuesday be safe. I feel like Barbara when I was in college and I went to college. Seattle not New Orleans Mardi Gras was cut at this big deal at college. I remember everybody getting really excited. I still don't know what it celebrating. Even when I lived in Louisiana during one of them and I remember having the cake with that really ugly look at baby King cake or something. They call it but the one that somebody brought to Louisiana downs. It was a king cake cheesecake. Now that I can get behind cheesecake. Might be my favorite dessert. It's good anymore. It's not good. It's really good. I`Ma Cheesecake Guy. So San cheesecakes to Charleston. We'll see guys back tomorrow. Everybody have a wonderful fat Tuesday. Have a wonderful rest of your day ahead. We'll do it again for Wednesday show.