20 Episode results for "Jacqueline"

29: So What - Jacquelyn Nicholson

Daily Sales Tips

01:49 min | 1 year ago

29: So What - Jacquelyn Nicholson

"You're listening to the daily sales tips podcast. And I'm your host Scott Ingram. Today's tip is a clip from my interview with Jacqueline Nicholson way back in episode eight of the sales success stories podcast. Here's what she had to say. And then the last thing for me comes from the Genesis of my career where I wasn't always selling before this. I used to be the person sitting across from you, Mr. seller to buy something and for me it came down to something. I call so what? So I would sit there, and I would listen to these vendors coming in to talk to me endlessly. And it was really to the point where I was sitting here as they blather on and on and on about how fantastic their product or their service was and I was thinking, so what even know what I do to even know what's important to me. And so for me, I find that. That's a really a deadly mistake that sales professionals can make is going on and on. And so I try to always think about what is the. So what are the what's in it for me factor for the prospective customers? Well. I love this insight so much I because Jacqueline had the experience and knows what it feels like to be a buyer, but even more because of what the question is likely to prompt you to come up with what's the so what for your prospect? What's the so what for the person on the other end of the call? You're going to make today or they're meeting. You're going to have today. Ask yourself that question and see what you come up with. And that's our question for today. Ask yourself the so what question on behalf of your prospect. And let us know what you come up with. You can join the conversation at daily sales dot tips forward slash twenty nine then come back tomorrow for some travel tips from Casey grand off.

Jacqueline Nicholson Scott Ingram Casey
Ep 170 - Interview with Jacqueline Trumbull and FP Santangelo

Reality Steve Podcast

1:43:54 hr | 8 months ago

Ep 170 - Interview with Jacqueline Trumbull and FP Santangelo

"You are listening to the reality. Steve podcast with your host. Reality Steve. He's got all the latest Info and juice Peter Season of the bachelor interviewing some of your favorite reality stars. Now here's realities. What's up everybody? Welcome to podcast number one seventy. I'm your host reality Steve. Thank you all for tuning in a great podcast for you this week as I mentioned yesterday in my column First Time. In one hundred and seventy podcasts that I've done anything sports related. Those of you have been around a while no my background. It's in sports talk radio. That's all I wanted to do when I left for college when I was in college. All I wanted was a sports talk show and then got into the business right afterwards. Things happened and I realized I don't know if I want to make a career out of this but I'm a huge sports fan. I watch them all Baseball Basketball College and Pro Football College and pro and Always been a huge sports fan. It's been a major part of my life. Ever since I was a child so I decided that this does have a Bachelor Tien and so my podcast this week is jacqueline trouble from you. Know Her from our season of the bachelor and she also has her own podcast. Which why am I blanking on the name brand? Oh sorry about that. Her podcast is a beautiful podcast to fall in love with Liam Matthews of TV GUIDE DOT COM. And you can see you can get that on any podcast wherever you can get your podcast. You can download that. It's called a beautiful podcast to fall in love and I was on their podcast earlier this week but anyway Jacqueline is the podcast guest to start out with and we really spent the whole time thirty minutes just talking about what it is to be a contestant on the show nowadays and my reporting and what my reporting does two contestants images and. I'm very well aware of what I do and there is a slippery slope there which we go over. It's not just oh I can't wait to throw this person out there to the wolves which is all of social media I do think about the things that I do before I do them. Believe it or not I know some of you might have a hard time believing that but I do and Jacqueline is good friend of mine and we talk a lot. We text on occasion and I had a question for her to start off the whole podcast of. I know that she's not a huge fan of what I do. But the way she explained it was. Okay I I get where she's coming from and I hope she gets where I'm coming from. And it wasn't a black or white debate and she hates this about me and I'm trying to explain myself it was. I think it was a good back and forth conversation that you will hear in the beginning however about thirty minutes in I bring on a mutual friend of ours his name is f p Santangelo and he is currently going on his tenth year as the baseball analyst on Massin for the Washington nationals who are defending world series champions F P is a guy that I watch a lot of Outta town baseball games. And he was a guy two years ago I was just sitting around watching a nationals game and I had watched a few that season and I just always he always struck me as very insightful and when I watch a baseball game even basketball football I judge an analyst on are they teaching me something that maybe I don't know about already and F P was just on a roll that day. He was everything every point he was making was so good and I was like. Wow I never really thought about baseball that way. I never really thought about where the batter stands in the batter's box and where the pitcher is standing on the mound and why the pitcher standing on the mound and why the battery is so close to the boxer away from the box or up in the box back in the box. And I was just and he was just reeling off some really good points and because the Internet is so filled with negativity. And everybody's GonNa Shit on everybody else. I sent him an instant. I found it on instagram. I'm just like I want to tell this guy. I really think he's a broadcaster and so I did and growing up in the industry and being in the Industry Myself. I like to competent people. Trust me he's not the only guy I've ever done this too You just happen to be one of the few that responded back but I it was just two years ago baseball summer game. It was probably a weekday game. I was on my couch and I said you know what I'm GonNa tell this guy. I think he does a great job. I really learn a lot when I hear him broadcast a game and I did. And that's all it was. I didn't think he would respond back. Did great if not whatever so I responded back. He said you know thank you. I really appreciate it. There was no talk about. Hey who are you? What's this reality? Steve Thing I didn't think much of it and then it was. I think January of last year we tell the story on the podcast but we kind of screwed it up but I went back and look at our texts and found out how it happened. So Jacqueline Jacqueline texts me one night and she'd text me a picture of her and F P together and they were out at a bar and it's the picture you see on the website today and I'm like like I didn't wreck I've seen FBI TV. But he wasn't recognizable to me. Just my face immediately and I was like why does that. Guy Looks Familiar. And she's like it's F P. I'm like oh I was like. Oh Yeah I guy like a year ago. I didn't know you guys knew each other. And she's like yeah and at the time if he was dating her best friend so it just became this thing where I had no idea jacqueline new EPI and so we do the first half hour with Jacqueline. We bring F- Bachelor for ten minutes because FBI does watch the show and he's got some hot sports opinions on on Peter the pilot and then We let Jack Lingo. And then F. P. and I. I'm sure this isn't going to be for a lot of you but maybe your husband or your boyfriend wants to hear baseball talk because F P is excellent breaking down baseball and we talk about the national season last year. How bad they started off. And then we talk about their world series run and how improbable it was and we talk about their prospects going into this season and then we dive into the Houston. Astros scandal that is basically the biggest thing that's happened in baseball history. I really think it is so. That's what you get on the podcast today so before we get started with that a couple things. I do want to go over that are happening in bachelor world. That happened over the last. You know twenty four or forty eight hours stuff covered Hannah Brown she is not going to be the Bachelorette as you saw me tweet out. Yesterday it was posted on dancing. Abc's instagram account. That she has been added to six dancing with the stars shows all at the end of March six days in a row. Actually which is a crazy schedule. I can't believe they don't take a day off in between but six days in a row. I believe our end of March. Hannah Brown has been added to that tour. Remember when she was named on the winner of dance with the stars on the announced the tour she had one tour date in sixty cities and I always thought that was weird and she already done. It was in January at Radio City Music Hall in New York. But now she's going to be on six Dancing with the stars live tour shows at the end of March while Bachelorette starts filming mid-march. It starts filming the week of Peter's finale airing so I I know some people have asked. Why can't you do both like people? Let's again let's think about before we have some questions. When in the history of the show has the lead ever had a second job that they had to go to during filming? This show takes up twenty four hours a day seven days a week for two months. She's not going to be able to be on the dancing with the stars live tour in six different cities also be the Bachelorette like come on. Let's let's think hell will be out of the country by then they want to be in California. By the time Hanna is starting the with the stars live tour so she is not going to be the Bachelorette. I know your next question is then who is. I don't know yet As we get closer. I'm starting to hear some names but as we get closer. There's no point to throw out names now. Because they haven't made a decision and we will know probably announce that at the after the final rose like they have every season for Bachelorette and then guaranteed just like we have the last three seasons with Rachel and then Becca and then Hannah they're probably going to roll out five before guys and they're going to get an early start to the bachelorette season by introducing them to five of their guys and they start filming a couple of days later. I have a few of the guys already for the season. And you know same crop of guys that you would expect and obviously I'll be getting more as we get closer and I'll release those probably that Tuesday or Wednesday of that week while the already out there in La so Hannah Brown not going to be the Bachelorette the other thing that popped up last night that everyone is freaking out about is Hannah and sloughs posted on instagram. Feed last night and Hannah G Posted a comment and Hannah and Celon followed it up with. I can't wait to see you. I'm GonNa live so close to you in two weeks. Yes Hannah an is moving to la. When the show is done filming. I've known that for a few weeks. Now she sang it publicly. She did last night on her instagram post. So immediately I had over one hundred messages in my DM OF. Oh the so. This means she has to win. She just admitted she's moving to L. A. Well I mean again. I could point two five ten things that points to Madison wins and I could probably point two five or ten things that could point to winning just because she says she's moving to La in two weeks does not mean she one. Maybe she did. But it's not because of that and I also tend to think I'm the one that is you know we'll read into stuff like this. Sometimes do you honestly think that Hannah an one this season this is the way? I'm just thinking out loud but do you want to think of Hannah was with Peter. She would say that publicly on an instagram post. Wouldn't that Kinda give the whole thing away so again. She could be played with everybody or she could have done it without realizing what she said. I don't know but she did post that. She's moving to La. I can confirm she is moving to. La Wants this show ends. But I'm pretty sure it's to start her instagram influencing career. I don't think it has anything to do with Peter. We'll see we'll see anyway before we get started Want to talk to you about one. One advertiser this week and that is threat up trying to spend less money on clothes. It's so hard to pass up on the latest trends or stuff from your favorite brands. Thankfully you can be kinder to your wallet without compromising your style with thread up. I'm telling you it's helped me stick to my budget. I can save more and not compromise my style. And you've seen my style it's hip boy anyway. Threat is the world's largest online through the ninety percent off estimated retail. You get insane. 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Steve for thirty percent off your first order threat up dot com slash st for an extra thirty percent off today terms. Apply all right. Let's get going first off with Jacqueline trumbull. Then followed by Washington nationals color analysts F P Santangelo podcast number. One seventy okay. Let's bring her in. You remember her from our e season of the bachelor and season five of Bachelor in paradise. She's been on this podcast a couple of times before and here she is again. Jacqueline trouble Jacqueline. Hi I'm good. Thanks for having me on again. I want to start off with this because earlier this week I went on your podcast with you and Liam Matthews and I wanna say this you and I are friends. We haven't met but I feel that I could talk to you about a lot of things and I hope you feel the same in return clearly. Sure we've had some very interesting conversations since I've known you and I WANNA say this to create a discussion not necessarily a black and white debate here okay. I am of the opinion that you are not a huge fan of what I do. Which is which is completely okay but I wanNA talk about it. Because I can't sense you know the parts that you're not too fond of. I have some thoughts on it because honestly it is kind of a a a slippery slope and I'm not talking about the Jena Stuff. We're not going to bring that up. That was two years ago. We throw that to the side. We've moved that we'll debate that until the end of time. I'm just talking about in general. I know that you have somewhat of an issue with my reporting. And when I report something about a contestant so give me your thoughts on it while it wasn't expecting to talk about the You know I mean it's not as though I don't have like extremely strongly formed thoughts around this. I think in general my and this is actually a take. I have to take professionally. I tend not to take black and white readings of people and there's a lot of mistakes people making life that or or just like rowing experiences. Or whatever and when you take them out of the context of their own lives they know themselves so much more deeply than anyone else can including you right. It's it Vilnai's them somewhat unnecessarily that being said I mean that's what reporting is to degree in. That's sort of what you're considered right. And so I I. I don't know that necessarily have like a major problem with what you do. Because that's the reality of the world we live in. You know what I mean if people are entertained severe them that's what they subject themselves to I think that more of my problem comes from the social media outrage that that follows Oh. Yeah I mean I I I look at it like this like my sight is not for people to come and just read me recap. What happened on Monday night and make fun of? It's in the beginning. That's certainly what it started out as but once the spoilers came and obviously I get more information the more reporting I got into it. Just so happens that my reporting once that is out there. It ends up turning into a reason for people to start commenting on people's pages. It's not like I'm saying go attack this person but when I released a story that someone ruined two marriages I mean. Yeah the the reaction as as crazy as it may be and as silly as it may be for some people to go on a stranger's instagram page. And just say call them names and and completely rip somebody that they don't know it's kind of like what you said this world we live in. There's nothing I can do about. It is basically either. I report nothing and just talk about what is shown on Monday nights or do what I do and it certainly is going to have that effect. Yeah I mean. I'm caught between being a therapist. And a capitalist. I mean I don't begrudge you for doing what people want in your supply and demand that exists in. That's just that's how our world runs. And I think when I think the reason I ask you questions like why do you do what you do? It's not because I'm trying to catch you in a web or anything. It's more just a genuine curiosity because I think a lot of people who report on the bachelor are both captivated by it and disdainful of it. And so it's interesting when you report on somebody and you have such strong opinions but at the same time I think you have kind of a cavalier like you know. The show doesn't really matter attitude which I sympathize with and the other thing is that I do the same thing to an extent I mean I hate social media commentary and I hate that we Drag these contestants when we don't really know them but it's not as though on my podcast. Everything is butterflies in ferries. I mean I. I criticize them as well. So you know I just. It's an interesting thing about reporting though is that I've done some shitty things in my life and I think that if we sat down and talked about them you would not necessarily feel. You wouldn't feel black and white about me. I think that we would remain friends. You would still think I'm a good person. And that's just what context have like. That's what context brings and so I just feel I feel bad when I feel bad to an extent when contestants are are exposed. I also think that Bashar contestants are reality. Tv Stars in general are just unprepared for what happens and so when people say like you signed up for this it's true it's just that you can sign up for something without knowing what you're signing up for an offense like you can know but not understand. I suppose and so I I just know how painful it is. But that doesn't mean you should do it. Yeah and that's I think that's the whole debate in all of this and I think one of the other things is there's criticism and then there's hate you know you can criticize somebody on this show for something they said and ninety m how they acted on a date because that is something that we're seeing them do even though an it 'em all obviously could be out of order misplaced you ranting question that had nothing to do how it was shown so. I mean that's a whole other debate to get into but it's the hate that's online is granted. What I reported about Victoria F this season I knew was going to give her hate. But that doesn't mean I can't report it. Because trolls on the Internet are now going to call her a bunch of names. I there's nothing I can do about people who WanNa do that. I'm reporting the news and that was a relevant thing and I also think it was proven to be relevant by the fact that he got incorporated into the show's storylines this season. So it's but I understand what you're saying and I and I do think that there is a there is criticism and then there's hate and I would never ever and I've said it over and over on my podcast and my blog like I don't want any of these contestants to be hated on when crystal was getting what she was during your season when our season was hearing I specifically screen shot some of the comments that people were saying and I'm like look people are nuts like yes. She's likable character on this show. I get it but you don't need to tell her to go. Di It's ridiculous but it is. Yeah you want to say it's ridiculous and you want to say stop doing it but if we say stop doing it as anyone going to listen no they're just not. It happens every season the next group of guys that start filming the Bachelorette and three weeks guys. If you're listening to this right now. Just know you're GONNA get hate for the stupidest things in the world and people are not GonNa like you for the way you're caller was on your shirt and what color you are and how you walk. I mean they're gonNa find something negative about you. It's just the way they sell. It's just the way the show works now. Unfortunately and kind of the point to you made of you don't really know what you're getting into with the show until you're in it and there is truth to that I think however seventeen years on the air and thirty nine seasons. In if you don't do any sort of research you've gotTA start knowing that okay. It's been on long enough. Maybe start calling other contestants before you go out you got to do something to know. Have a have a preparation because some people seem like they really have zero preparation going in. Yeah but what I'll say to that. Is that the. The world is changing pretty quickly. I mean when I on two years ago I didn't really understand how big INSTAGRAM Oh Shit you there. Yeah there you are. I got you sorry. Sorry put you on facetime for some reason in speakerphone. Okay When I went on two years ago I just didn't understand. How big INSTAGRAM was. I mean I obviously like I looked up some contestants beforehand. I was like Oh my God. This is big opportunity. But I don't know that the vitriol was so big Or that maybe I was just like Bob. I mean I had three hundred followers. It just wasn't a part of my life like it just and then the other thing is that. I didn't think that things were a little bit less political a few years ago. Two years ago they were pretty political. But I like I think you know five years ago necessarily and so there wasn't a sense that lake something I did. Five years ago is going to be brought into the present and GonNa and I'm going to be slammed for it or that. I could lose job opportunities for it. I mean that's that's like a relatively new phenomenon and then there's just the simple fact that like. I knew that I'd be criticized. I just didn't realize how thin my skin was in how much it would hurt me and like how angry I would get so. There's just certain things you don't know about yourself in your Cape Your ability to to cope. I think that's one thing. The show does a very very poor job of is once. You're on the show. They don't really care that much about what's happening to you online. And I don't think they offer much support they don't offer you get to see a psychologist and you talk to somebody. But are they checking up on you weekly after the show after you leave the show checking up on you weekly when you're getting bombarded with hates on your instagram comments. No and I think they could do a better job of that. Yeah they like she's she's like technically available to you but it's it's not very helpful and and yeah there's no structure in place so like you have to reach out and eventually you feel kind of weird about reaching out to therapist. He's got other things to do when you're not their client. Yeah yeah and I mean there's there's just the the only thing is to just repeatedly tell people every season look you are going. I don't care who you think you are or how you think your edit is gonna come across even if you go and film. The show and whatever episode you leave you come back and be like well. I didn't do anything wrong. You HAVE NO IDEA. You have zero control over anything that happens. Once you're out there zero and these people think they can gain the system and think that they can control their edit and they can control as long as they don't say anything stupid no not necessarily because they can combine something you said in week one with something you said Week. Four and make sound like an asshole. Yeah I mean you can control it to an extent like I I. I thought it would be difficult for them. To create a villain. Edit out of my time on the bachelor they still could have made. I think what they could have done to me is what they did to Kelly which. I'm not convinced that any of that narcissistic stuff. That she said was was what she said He. He's been sliced splice together. Yeah so that's the kind of thing that could happen but I think you know I mean crystal. We knew was going to be the villain when she was on. The show is very clear. But yeah you don't have much control. And you are totally at the mercy. Another thing I think though has changed. Is that the show has started incorporating the outside world a lot. More than even when I was on the show so bleak releasing Kaelin's texts then became part of after the final rose or whatever You know what contestants do in between Bachelor in paradise is now part a clot and that's like something people can come necessarily anticipated so I really I mean I was scared to go on the bachelor especially given my career trajectory. That was like my major concern. I would be terrified. Only two years later like terrified to go on getting worse. I think no it is and it's just an and the show is obviously getting more popular. They're adding new shows to the franchise. We Got Summer Games summer. We've got those bachelor. Listen to your heart. Which begins April like this is. This is a juggernaut. And it's a giant machine. Just pumping out shows nonstop. There's GonNa be five bachelor related shows in the in the calendar year. Two Thousand Twenty. That's that's ridiculous so you know I mean people are all getting into it and you've got to have an idea that and like I said we can tell people. Don't leave death threats on instagram pages. Don't call them names. Don't tell them they should die. You know whatever and it's still going to happen and that's and that's the problem like you can say until you're blue in the face. People are still going to go out and do what they WANNA do. And Hide behind a screen name on social media. I mean just yeah. Unfortunately it's the way the world right now But I will never condone it. I never tell people to do it but do I know by something's I report. People are going to get hate absolutely. I can't prevent that from reporting things you know. But that's the story slope and that's the that's the problem where. I know that Victoria was going to get hate when I did that. And it was GONNA be bad but it was a major major story line for a woman who got as far as he did on the show and is still on the show as we speak you know if she's a she's a night one. I told you guys this on earlier this week. She's a night one earth episode episode three. That story doesn't get told because she's not a major point of the show and that's Kinda why do it? If it's a major plot point to where it can affect the outcome of the show. I think it needs to be heard and That's where I come in yet there. That's fine I mean. I haven't necessarily objected to like what you do. I just I'm always curious. You know when I have reporters who were reporting on trump I. I have to assume that they get some pleasure out of reporting on the nastiness of trump because he such an an abort in my opinion figure. But you don't seem to take necessarily the bachelor like that seriously but then at other times you do. I've always just been curious about about why he do it. If it's anything beyond just like this is my dog but that's like that's perfectly fine rationale to I mean I see what you're saying I see your point and yeah it's that's the way I kinda look at. It is that it's my job. That's why yeah. That's why maybe you know what maybe if I was thoroughly invested in these contestants and their lives and their wellbeing I wouldn't report anything negative because because then it just becomes while God. They're going to get so much hate and I don't want them to like I. I have to remove myself. I'm an objective. Viewer here and right. That's where that's where I come in because you know this this season for example. I've heard people. I've heard some of the contestants the terms of the negative stuff that I've heard about contestants this season I've heard somebody was very much a bully in high school. I heard one girl cheated on every single guy that she was ever with in high school. I heard one girl was a bitch to everybody in her sorority. But am I going to like that? Stuff is negative stuff and I heard it about women the season but I never reported it and I'm not going to name the names of those particular ones. I'm just talking about the things that I have heard but am I gonNA report that if I if I was reporting any negative thing I heard about somebody. I'd have story every week and I'm just not GonNa do that. I'm doing major major stories when it comes to this show as opposed to someone came to me and said this girl bullied me in high school. It's like okay but what am I supposed to do? Like what am I supposed to do with that? I could report it and say hey I heard this girl was so and so was a bully in high school. It's like great. That's only gonNA promote more hate and negatively when it's not really a major issue. I can't prove it and I'm not saying that. The person that came to me lied but people jerks in high school. And hopefully you change. It's just it's just become this weird thing where it's almost every piece of information. I get is now just a case by case basis. It's I'm only going to report. Something I think is pretty major and could affect the show and how long they last on the show definitely will play a role as well for me Unless it's something totally agree GIS from somebody that lasted two or three episodes. And it's a pattern like the other thing. I wrote today pattern of behavior. It's something that is constantly being told to me and numerous different people are telling me the same thing even though they don't even know each other about one particular person the ads. I think that's something that needs to be made aware of. But yeah I mean it's trust me. I don't get pleasure out of reporting the Victoria Story. I know people think that I do but I don't get pleasure because I knew what was coming after it. I knew one. I'd be doubted by an end to get wrath from her friends and her side which I have But none of the people that have come to her defense have ever told me anything other than just calling me names. Which Kinda shows their maturity level Don't say anything about her. Say Anything about my reporting. It's just you're an asshole and it's like okay. Great expected you to say that. How about coming to me with more of a solid argument that I mean. It's it sucks. It's definitely weird and we're in weird times when it comes to this show and you just wish you could just throw it out there to everybody. Hey just no no matter how great person you think you are and your friends and family think you are. You are going to get some form of negativity and or hate online if you appear as a contestant on the show and if you last long enough it's going to be worse. Yeah I mean it's an interesting. It's an interesting lesson to tell people because the the attitude that I've always experienced from people on on Reddit or twitter. Whatever is just this immense contempt like they just love thinking that they are better than you and that everything you do is just an attempt at like building persona or you know. You're you're trying to seem more smarter. You're trying to seem sweeter any any adjective it. The the sunshine is that anybody who goes on show speak but like it is true that every living person on this earth. If they went on the bachelor they would be picked apart in the same way. I mean. There's no one safe some people are I mean I haven't broken up for marriage is pretty bad but It might just be something to keep in mind that when we tear other people down like look in the mirror I for a second. Why is it so rewarding for us to be so nasty to other people and to just assume the worst about them constantly? I don't know that's why I mean. At least I try on my podcast to be more critical than nasty and more measured than anything else in see multiple sides and present that I mean it's that's what I that's what I strive for. I don't know if I always make it but I'm telling you I see your side and I just think it's it's one thing to witness what we see on screen and Victoria definitely hasn't come across great onscreen even if you knew nothing about her past. She now doesn't mean girls comes across as very bitchy very she. You know very manipulative and whatever but yeah even if you think that even if you think Victoria is the eight episodes of the bachelor this season and knowing nothing about her past and you just think she is the biggest bitch and she is a horrible person and so manipulative. I still don't understand what motivates somebody to go and say that to her on her instagram page. Why don't you know well? Yeah why do you care it? It really is fascinating to me. Because I don't know if it's expressing it's a way of expressing your own past hurt you know. Is this like this attempt to bring down other villains? Because you've you know the the villains in your life have caused you so much hurt. I don't I don't know what it is or if it's just like a I just want to feel better about myself right now and so I'm studying these like these boundaries around Right and wrong. And you're in the wrong pile and so if I can look at you there and see that you're in that pile that I know I'm in the right. I just. It's so I have never cared enough about anything. Make it to wish that on anybody know and and look. I'm the guy that supposedly can't stand Victoria Fuller and I'm the guy that hates her and I'm the guy that wants. All you know the guy that brought this all upon. Apparently I'm here telling you like look knock it off. I N you have every right to feel the way you do about her on the show or even by the information I presented to you. That's fine but you don't have. I don't understand the motivation to let her know that on her own instagram age. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all any. And that's her. I mean any contestant crippled in deserve at your season. Just go down the list of anybody who was a villain quote unquote on their season. Or even somebody you know this season You know I just take someone like ally away who came back and told the chase rice stuff and people are calling her a fake bitch on her like really i. Just don't get it and plenty. Plenty of women are taking some this season. Sydney and all these people Kelsey when she was kind of melting down those first two episodes and overly emotional and people telling her she's got issues and go get some help. Like could really. I wish although I'm afraid of the consequences I wish that everybody would have to down and watch a week of their own life play on TV. I think it would be deeply traumatizing. Because they would see that all of the things they hate other people they do themselves. I mean people were drying is girls for Gossiping with everyone gossips. You know I mean they were. They were dragging them producing the most human things and their negative human things. I mean in an ideal world. We do these but like come on. It's at a certain point. Look at yourself in realized that the things you think are so wrong are just I mean? There are oftentimes quite humid and and given like certain circumstances and context you might do even worse things. There is really no explanation for it and just because you aren't writing negative stuff on someone's instagram page. If you're doing the same thing on social media platforms just know. These contestants are reading it. It's just as bad. Oh yeah well read. It was a huge deal for me and you know people would always make fun of me for lurking. Whatever and I did do that but at a certain point I quit looking at it all together. I got bombarded. I mean my friends would send me threads random strangers within me. Read it threads. My intern at one point sent me a threat My bought my adviser read. Read it threats. I mean everybody in these contestants lives will find the nasty things that you say about them and it is really hurtful really damaging and it's embarrassing and so if you think it's just I mean it's very tempting to go and read the things that people are saying about you because you wanna be able to see yourself from a different Lens and you want to find out about how other people experience you. That's a very natural thing to want to do. But even if you don't do that you'll still see unless you have incredible self control and eventually you know I just like no. Don't send me anything. I'm not looking no matter how tempting it is even you know even when I got into even when I got into Duke for my PhD. It's sending me these threats. Being right people are congratulating you and then I clicked on one. It was like halfway through. People are already getting mean. It's it's just endless in new. Eventually you just gotTa Say Lake. I'm just I'm just GonNa Horse Blinders on and go about my life. The way I did before and then I'll be significantly healthier and that people aren't going to like me I think I I see what you're saying. I don't know I don't know if age has anything to do with it. You know coming up on forty five years old and I've just never let any of that stuff get to me Just because I've always you know right out right out of college. I was working in the number two market in Los Angeles on in media and obviously social media wasn't a big deal wasn't even back then so I wasn't able to hear instant feedback of how I sounded on the air or something said on the air. If I screwed up anything like that I'm sure I would have gotten ripped for things that I said but yeah I've just I just Kinda got to a point where I was just like the only opinions that I care about our people that know me and most of the people online don't know me they don't know who I am and they don't talk to me on a daily basis care what my family and my friends think about me not strangers on the Internet and that's just always the approach. I've taken if you're going to criticize work related stuff that's fine. We can debate and go back and forth on that But when they give an opinion on me as a person like okay great. They don't know me so I don't care with their. You know that's a great attitude and it's it's yeah it's what you if the attitude you need to have or you'll get crushed. Yeah and I know it's not for everybody and let's face it. I mean the people that are going on the show are all basically between twenty three and twenty six. So yeah when I was starting out in the industry in L. A. and I was twenty three to twenty six the the the feedback that I did hear that was negative. I was like man that sucks. I thought people liked me. And but after you get numb to it and it's this thing okay whatever but I. I appreciated that discussion on that. I didn't WanNa put you on the spot or anything but I knew that you well I. I guess I maybe didn't know for sure that's all I wanted to bring it up like. Do you have a problem with what I do versus because you and I are cool outside of that and we've always cool outside of that so I didn't know where it came from but I didn't think it was you know wasn't affecting our friendship or anything as wanted to know what you thought and And I knew that like I said what I do is going to not instigate. That's not the word I'm looking for. But when I report something negative about somebody I know immediately. That person is probably going to get it more than another contestant that I don't report negatively about because just that's the way the fans of the show war But it's not going. I'm an objective observer of the show. I'm not invested to where I have to make sure to every contestant likes me if I did that I would never run a negative word in my life right so and that would be really boring. But what's the whole thing is funny thing is. I never set out to do any of this. It's just when it came to me and it started becoming like. Oh that's the guy that has all the information on the show and behind the scenes stuff that became kind of my persona. And that's what I want to give the people they want. They come to me for spoilers. And Hey what's really going on behind the scenes or have you heard about this and you know. And that's what I and that's what I give them you know. And that's and that's where we're at I do want to mention you You mentioned it in your last answer so last time we spoke you were applying for your PhD. Yeah you have been accepted so toby what you're doing so I guess I'm three quarters of the way through my first year At Duke University for yet for psychology. It's been great. I mean I Miss New York terribly. That's only downside but I mean it's like as soon as I came here. I got two bedroom apartment that I could afford on my Grad School. Stipend got serious boyfriend. 'cause you know they're just like waiting for women to arrive. Unlike unlike work. It's definitely a easier pace of life but do cspan amazing Yeah I mean I have only positive things to say about about that aspect of my life. Positive things to say about Durham. Do you have any? It's fine I mean I don't know I was feeling I was really feeling quite fond of it I I've started to get a bit a bit homesick home to me being New York at this point so but I'm just I'm just determined to make New York in the Non Winter Months. A big part of my life so. I mean I've already got a ticket back. And hopefully we'll spend some time in the summer. But it's kind of germs. But a bit of a hub. I still done a ton of traveling and you know. My schedule's fairly flexible. Actually so it's been a good a good experience. I don't I don't you're an exciting life and I was running around had all these insurers and you know that's died down a little bit but that's also the nature of being in a relationship. I think that and I do you know what's funny is we're gonNA bring. We're going to bring your friend on and a guy that I have become. Dm Buddies with it. All kinda started kind of weird. But I haven't told anybody who it is yet and I don't know if anybody outside of the DC area unless you're a huge baseball fan is going to know but let's let's get him on the line real quick. All Right Jacqueline we've got. We've got your friend on the line and a guy that I've been. Dm Buddies with for a couple of years now and this is my first time speaking with him but he is a seven year career in the big leagues with the Expos. The giants dodgers the as he starting his ninth season as the color analyst for the world series champion Washington nationals on Mason it is F P Santangelo. Fbi great to finally talk to you. Man I am honored to be a part of this podcast. Thanks for having me on guys. No problem and it's the whole thing is so funny because I reached out to you two years ago and we'll get into it a little bit later but I had no idea you knew Jacqueline and somehow it got brought up. I think maybe Jacqueline had a picture of you guys on her instagram. Like wait you know. F P Santangelo. And she's like yeah and so it became that way. She you guys hanging out one night. She sent me a picture of you guys hanging out. That's the picture I'm GONNA use today for the post. So yeah that's crazy. How that all kind of came to be small world you know well. Nobody broadcaster TV played the major league. Jacqueline with on the bachelor so the fact that I know her and trust me. I've worn out about the bathroom after so many questions. I check every episode. I'm a huge fan of the show. I've been watching for ten years now so I'm addicted to it like everybody else and you know she's a friend of mine and she's probably sick of me asking her questions about the author you never so F F. You been watching for ten years now. Seriously you're into this cut on and off. You know some years more than other up locked in with pilot this year. I mean what a shit show. This thing has been unbelievable. podcast Yeah it's been it's been entertaining to say the least like you like you like you said to me you demand you're like Yeah Pete. Wouldn't last the first month of the season managing a team in the in the majors? Because he's got no leadership skills whatsoever now he's just he's just kind of going with the flow and letting. Victoria whatever she wanted to and I would I really questioned. Was this last episode. Because when he was at Madison playing basketball he doesn't know the Defense Wins Championships. And he just let her run all over all over him. By P if you've ever listened to bro Defence went championships in Madison to school. Dude that was that was pretty bad. Jacqueline I wish he would have got a hometown date on our season just because we would have been able to see like what backwoods West Virginia. We'll be looking at if you know it would have been Charleston South Carolina. Sorry oh I thought it was west. I'm from West Virginia but my parents at that point lived in Charleston. So I and I regret it. Well I have a lot of read about not going on hometowns. I wish I could have shown off west. Virginia that would've been really important to me. Just people with Banjos. Plan Banjos on that. So you know you're talking about Batori this season. Obviously she's the polarizing figures one. Everyone's talking about what's your take on her. In general not even not even talking about you know stuff that are reported in her pass and all that stuff just watching her on screen. Do you see the appeal. Like are you seeing what Peter is seeing or you just like he just wants to get laid back? I mean I see the physical appeal. She's beautiful So I mean that's obvious right but you know the older you get you realize that. There's more to that in a relationship and it's not just about the physicality maybe these kind of caught up in that. But she's like like gas lighting to T- with him I mean she's super manipulative with every conversation and by the end of it he feels like he's screwed up and he's apologized for just having normal relationship concerns if there is such a thing as a normal relationship concern on the bachelor but yeah she's I mean I'm I was a fan initially and then you broke that stuff about her in Virginia Beach and then that made me look at her differently and then the ex came on the show last week and kind of tried to give him a heads up. I wish he would have said more. I don't know because of Jacqueline will probably know this because of the the legal ramifications. She couldn't get into specifics but I wish he would have. Said what you reported in which you heard about her. You know her what she did in Virginia. Beach and breaking up marriages Because because so many times you guys know this you. I'm just outside fan but you guys on that show. You're sitting there and you just want the guy to know what you know you're like dude. In the reason I get attached to the bachelor. 'cause I like to like have a man crush on the guy and then root for the guy girl. That's my favorite part about it. So if I'm not attracted you know in a in a sort of way to the guy on the show And rooting for him than the show loses lester so I've faded and years but this year I think even though Pete doesn't have great leadership skills he's kind of letting girls walk all over them that you know there's something about him that you know you wanna root for him. He seems like a good guy when I agree with that. Actually ESPECI- yeah an-and has conversations with Victorian when he's just he's seeing a glimmer of like power. He's like kind of catching on but not quite like go cocoa coffee then no horseback or he's smarter than all of us that he just wants to get into the fantasy screen it. He just wants like she thought there than than you know but she. I don't know you guys no spoilers for me because I know you guys know more than I do. Agree with the previews at the end. And all the drama. I mean I could almost picking her now because she has some sort of like voodoo magical rabbits weird. Oh for sure she does. It's it's really weird. Because we look over every single date that she had with him and every basically every single alone time that she's had with him. It's been nothing but drama. She had her first one on one in Ohio with chase rice state. That was nothing but drama. Then she gets one two episodes later in Chile where they go to that Rodeo. And she's a you know a mass. He's telling her to open up and she's like I can't. I don't know what's gotten into me then. We had the three on one date where she again walked. You know walked away from him and said I can't do this and then the you know the shit show. That was the hometown date yet. He continues to keep her when she's done nothing but give him red flags. It's almost like that girl. That just has that part of you that you don't you're even though there's so many red flags you're only focusing on the the little glimmer of good stuff that she gives you and I guess that's what Pete's doing and they haven't even slept together yet so I mean that. Didn't you think that hundred eight? She was going to go to a certain. Can you imagine if she has to musical guest studio dates and both of them? Oh my Gosh Jacqueline O. F. B. I wanted to ask you one of the things you said you wanted to go out with some of former bachelors. Like you cheer for them. You WanNa you WanNa root for them. Are there ones in the past that you were big fans of like were you when you were watching? Jacqueline on our. Ac's were you like yeah. I could see Jacqueline with this guy. You like hell. No I mean I like Ari now more than I that I that I know Jacqueline and she's always said really nice things about him so Yeah so he became one of my favorites and What about coal mine? And I didn't watch last season I was in I was in. I was overseas so I didn't have a chance to see it but I didn't get into it that's why I'm back into it But the I'm drawing a blank right now on your podcast. The ones that had the show afterwards. I met them in Denver. They did a heated national anthem for the ROCKIES. Game and I was really rooting for him. I am drawing blank. Her name anyways just a couple years back. But Yeah Ben Higgins yes then was my favorite bachelor ever and I just drew a blank on a thank you so much trouble remembering baseball named I've had a lot of concussions but yeah I really rooted for Ben. I thought he was the coolest ever. I still think he'd be cool. Dude sorry that didn't work out but I met them to sign a waiver because I was in the background of their little show where they play a joke on Ben to do the national anthem at a Rockies. Game that okay that was. Sp This is. This is a secret it can be edited out. But weren't you being that to be the bachelor longtime ago? Yes time ago. My agent near the bachelor's H it and there was some talk about me maybe being on the show and Yeah saying that. I'm probably yeah. That never came to fruition. Obviously I wasn't. I toyed with the idea of pursuing a little bit and then I realized I've only been divorced three years and wasn't ready to get married. I had two kids that were very young and I didn't want them seeing dad making out with every girl cause and in all honesty. If I would've ever gotten that far in bed on the show it would have probably been the last year of the show. I would've probably ruined it a lot of different reasons. You're right now Jacquelyn anyway. You know what? Here's serious question. I believe your daughter is in college or Graduated College. Right she did. She's traveling. The world like a Hippie right now I love it. She's going to different countries. She's all over the place she's sticking your off between college in the real world. If your daughter wanted to do the show would you let her do it? Of course not. She's she's got a great head on her shoulders. She would be able to decipher right from wrong in good from bad and the one thing that blows my mind every Jackie. Maybe you can comment on this. It just seems like everybody that the contestants whether it's the Bachelorette or the bachelorette contestants trying to win the love of one person. I it seems like they forget that they're when they sign up that there's going to be twenty five other people shocked by that every year. There's other people on the job or guys and they don't prepare themselves mentally for and I sit here every night. Drinking my wine watching the bachelor going. You didn't realize it was going to be twenty four there hot chicks on this show every year. It's a wonderful formulas. I mean it works every year because I guess it's just blindsided but there's other people on the show. Yeah and that was something that I did not forget. Although it might not forget it kind of made me like less less willing to attach to get attached to him. But I think it's just another thing where you're you're no record dealer is but you don't understand what the deal is so you kind of surprised yourself by not being able to handle it as well as you could. Jacqueline. Obviously you made friends with a lot of the girls on the show and you because you spend way more time with them than you do the bachelor when you're filming so when so and so goes out on a date. When Lauren went out on a date or Becca went out on a date or anybody went out on a date was it. Was it. You Mad were you happy for them but inside you were like I hope it doesn't go great because that's one less person like what were your thoughts. When other women went on date? You were friends with well actually well. It wasn't very difficult for me because my best friends were Kendall and Jenna and Jenna never got a one on one date and Kendall only got two on one before I went on but I also. I didn't really develop feelings for Rei until late in the game like my one on one day. And by the time I have feelings for him I also do. My feelings aren't like strong enough for me to quit my job so I just you know. I didn't really have to deal with that but I think when people were like dragging Kelsey for being super emotional someone else went on like it would have been potentially a very different story but it had an early on and then had to watch other women about with him. 'cause you're too high. Will you come back? And you feel like you're you've changed the game and like everything is in your court now and then he takes out another woman the next day and it's all back to square one kind of the way it works like you're screwed. You WanNa you WANNA live off that high in the very next day. He's going out somebody else. Every single guy in the world except for the girls are all right there and there's cameras but usually it's just twenty four the girls on the cell phone and they're going out with different guys every night so I mean it's not really a stretch. I mean when you think about it I guess it you have to and you normally don't hear about the date the next night or you don't see the text messages but you know most guys are talking to a few girls that once that was. Actually that was actually quite comforting. I felt like it is actually a cleaner form. The dating certain ways right Yeah there was just no. I mean there was mystery but it was like it was like explained mystery. Kind of you knew what you weren't allowed to know and the breakup were supposed to be blindsiding sort of but they weren't ghosting and I mean you. You actually knew kind of what was happening in reality in that. There's a lot of comfort in that and a lot of discomfort in it. That's what people were like. How could you do this? You know it's so in feminist or it's just like how could you date you know? How could you be in this poly relationship forever? It's like Dainik Sucks in general. It's very bad. And this is just lesser two evils. I guess or does another evil. I don't know no it's understandable I mean this is. The show is a is a juggernaut. It's been on seventeen years. Peter Season is the thirty ninth season. And it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So Jacqueline Do you mind if FBI nerd out over baseball and You just not at all you go play with your boyfriend or something like that but nobody I know. Okay I appreciate you coming on. You know I You know I love you to death and I'm glad we talked that we did earlier about everything and Again thanks for coming on. I appreciate it and we will obviously be in Dutch. Absolutely always a pleasure. P I got the rose. You didn't beat one give it to by Jacqueline. All right. We're done with Jacqueline. That was a good forty five minutes of bachelor with her but As I mentioned before on the line with us right now F P Santangelo. He is the color analyst. Ninth Year Right. Going into national broadcasts actually tenth believe it or not double digits. I signed a new contract. It'll be my twentieth year. In the franchise so ten is a player with the Expos Expos moved to DC NOW. Ten is a broadcaster with a team. So twenty years. Same franchise kind of proud of that little humble brag. I'm excited to defend the medal is I'm calling it Yeah L. Yes yes it's GonNa be good season. I think it's you know it's worth noting that Like I said it's kind of a small world and I've been a bachelor fan. I literally never spoke to you in my life. I was watching the nationals game. One day a couple of years ago and and I really and I I have the major league baseball extra innings package. I watch a lot of out of city games. I live in Dallas so obviously I've got the rangers with with what is nuts. The new guy thin it I'm already forgetting see as our are color analyst. Dave Dave Raymond. Raymond is the SE. Cousy so I like to watch a lot of out of market games and I during two thousand eighteen I I may have had a few bucks on a few nationals games and I was always listening to the nationals feed and I really grown up in baseball and grown up in southern California vin. Scully was obviously my guy and it was just. I was listening you one day and when I watch baseball I WANNA learn stuff and I felt like every time I was listening to nationals games. I was like F P really really teaches me things every game and that's what I want out of my my cholera. Listen Baseball and let's face another's markets I don't get that and with nationals games. I was like and I just felt like firing off a dmz you and just telling you. I really enjoy your work man. I appreciate it. And that's any responded back and we kind of kept in touch and then I found out to. You knew Jacqueline. And that's all this came to be but thanks man. I appreciate that. That's that's my goal every day. It's hard to do it over one hundred sixty two games but as a former player. I was going to be a major league manager. That's what I wanted to do and the minor leagues and coach for a couple of years and it wasn't paying the bills and maybe wasn't when I thought it was gonna be so I got into broadcasting in DC. Didn't have baseball for thirty one years. So we've had baseball back in the nation's capital for fifteen and I figured with the kind of a younger fan base would you talk about you know the Phillies fan base of the Red Sox the Yankees hundreds of years? They've had a ball club in generations. Have grown up watching baseball that I felt like might job To kind of explain the game in a way that maybe people could understand it without talking down to him that the expert fan got it in the new fan. Got It and you're just trying to teach along the way and it kind of coach fans about the game of baseball and and I take great pride that when I walk around town. Stephen happens a lot where people say. I learned something from you every night. I'm like yeah you learn how to use the English language number one because I'm just a dumb jock up there talking baseball but you know I try to teach every night and try to be entertaining because baseball is fun to be I try to have fun with the broadcast every night. But if it's a two to one game let the game kind of dictate and then you look for things and it gets hard every night to like. Look for things to point out to teach my boss. The Chris Glass massive tremendous guy. That always tells me like we love it when you teach so you know. I look for teaching moments. Throughout the course of a ballgame that maybe even the you know the fan that watches one hundred sixty two games in thinks. They know baseball that you could break it down in a way for them. I do pitch tipping. Do you know signs from Second Base? I do all kinds of different things that I don't know. I want it to be like a young fun kind of organic broadcast that I can teach you know the kid that just started watching baseball. That's eight years old or adult that's been watching it their whole life so I love what I do. I'm as passionate about this was playing the game and I'm super lucky to have fallen on my feet so to speak here in. Dc for the ten th year and to win a world championship which is just unbelievable. I think the key that you brought up there is that you talk about what you say and how you teach doesn't come across as I'm a know it. All you come across is very easy to understand what you're saying. You're not speaking in baseball terms. That only lifers of the game would even understand. You're very good at breaking it down for somebody now. I feel like I've watched baseball my life to know slang analogies terms and stuff like that. But even if you didn't. I think watching a game that you broadcast people can easily pick up on what you're trying to get out there. I try to be like I am right now with you. I don't change when I go on the air. You could have a beer with me at the bar down the street which I'm heading to after we're done and I talked the same way at the bar about baseballer about life. Is I talk on. Tv Some guys get on the air broadcaster garlic. Hey everybody welcome no. I'm the same Guy I am off there on. The Chapman be a Mike their which to be honest with you after nine years. The big challenge my tenth year last year is to remember that you're on TV in. There's some things you can't say in. There's there's a whole group of people out there. Now that are looking to be offended by certain things In in in you have to be careful what you say and how you say it that becomes the biggest challenge now is remember you're on TV and trying to cross any lines or make anybody upset and you talk about last year. I I WANNA talk about the nationals last year because this was one of the more unbelievable runs that I think people tend to forget on. May Twenty third last year. This team was nineteen thirty-one. They were ten games out of first place and they were dead in the water. I mean we were talking about Dave Martinez. Job was in jeopardy underachievers. Bryce Harper had left in the off season and everyone's like up nationals are done rebuilding mode and here we go and then for my believe may twenty four th on the very next day. I believe first or second best record in baseball after that. Awful fifty game start was. Was there anything during that? Start where you thought they would be able to turn it around or were you like even internally man this is just might be one of the seasons. Well you know the challenge for me is be positive every night on TV. My number one rule is a broadcasters. Remember are the game was in the the farther you get away from the game that the bigger challenge that comes to be every night. Because you're looking at the screen. You're seeing things in slow motion. You can't remember. It was hit a baseball. Art was to catch a baseball In how hard it was to win one major league game on a given day so this year. I mean to be honest with you. There was times I was coming home goal. I don't know what to say anymore. These guys are planned so bad and it wasn't just a bad was just nineteen and thirty one st it was the worst 1931. You could imagine balls were balls. Were going halfway up. The screen from relievers were hidden guys. There was based ready mistakes every night. There was errors on the field. There was non-competitive at bats left and right and it just looked like collectively. They were a group that was trying so hard that it was just going the other way and there was rumors about debut Martinez and Mike Rizzo's job and their job security there was talk on the MLB network about the reloading trading Max Scherzer at the trade deadline so the the other team that was nineteen and thirty one at the same time with the Detroit Tigers and they went on to lose one hundred fourteen games. The Nets went onto win the world series so today be Martinez Credit. He'd never panicked. He was the same guy every day. And he came up with this slogan that we all kind of I ruled at the time. Go WanNA know every day. That's all I tell the guy's GonNa know every day just like really that's going to get us out of this and guess what it did. They bought in Mike. Rizzo traded for Geraldo Party. Came to the ball club yet at life and energy and just kind of. Hey if we win today we win. And if we don't let's get him tomorrow attitude. That guys started having fun. They started dancing the Dugout They started doing the baby shark when he came up. That was his walkup song. The whole crowd started doing it. And this whole thing just started slowly but surely turn it around. There was some huge comeback. Wins in you're starting to see things you see for winning ballclub I didn't think there was a time when I wondered if they would ever get back to five hundred let alone get to the playoffs and then I knew if they got to the playoffs after this historic run that nobody wanted them in the playoffs and they had a chance to do some damage. I had them in four games against the dodgers. They wanted five. I had beaten the Astros to now. Obviously I'm biased. But I'm around them every day and after being a professional baseball for thirty one years the stuff I saw in the clubhouse in the dugout on the bus on the plane The chemistry these guys had the culture that developed in how much they generally loved one another. And I don't care what you have People talk about analytics and spitting out formulas. And what's the bottom line? Are we meeting our quotas? I if you're in a workplace and you're happy with the people you work with and there's nothing to measure that there's no analytic for your productivity levels higher so when you're talking about being with guys six seven eight months on the same train the same plane the same hotel the same bus the same clubhouses same dugout if you like your teammates if you love your teammates and you love being around him. There is no analytic for that. You know you've never seen anybody at a championship speech. Get up there on the podium. Thank Launch Angle and exit elasticity or spin rate. You know it's about you know we were together group. We believed in each other. We stayed with it. So these guys had all these intangibles that when you throw twenty five guys together at the highest level. You just don't know what you're going to get some times in in this case when they got Pora. Any Ball Sanchez Stephen Strasburg Kinda changed in and had fun plan baseball year at all. Click in the chemistry and the culture and the formula was like been on some pretty good teams one hundred two games in Oakland one year. It was nothing like that ever seen in baseball before it was unbelievable. The World Series was unbelievable because it was the first time in the history of I believe any postseason finals in any sport where the road team won every game. I believe that was it right. Yeah so the nationals. Go ON THE ROAD. They win the first two in. Houston and obviously you feel great coming home or up to. Oh and all of a sudden you lose three in a row at home and then you go back out on the road and you have game five at home Max. Scherzer supposed to start wakes up that morning with neck and back spasms they push them back hopefully hoping for a game seven and he ends going in game seven and one of the gut here performances. You'll ever see I. I WanNa talk about real quick. Because he's one of my favorite players read a lot about him one of the more intense guys ever. You'll see in any sport but that game five where he was supposed to start and got pushback ended up starting game seven. You are on the inside. You know how bad it was can. Can you explain to people that? How Bad Max? Scherzer was where he couldn't start game five but was able to come back three days later and start a game seven and got an unbelievable game. Four coaches came up to me and said Maxi might not be able to go to borrow. I said what and I knew when we left Houston after being up to nothing it was going back to Houston. Just don't win one hundred seven games because you're not good. Yeah and we're we're finding out. How big those wins? Were used them on certain road. They kind of have a whole new meaning to him. Now that everything's gotta coming out but he couldn't he couldn't get out of bed. His wife had to drive him to the ballpark that day. They were hitting bumps in the road. Where was in serious pain on the way to the ballpark and and he is. Everybody knows he's the biggest competitor in the world. You know if anybody was going to answer the bell for game five is going to be Max so when I heard game four. He might not go tomorrow. Come on this is typical Max. He's GonNa come in save the day like when he had the broken nose black game and he struck out ten phillies after breaking his nose on a bunt the day before and practiced. Like this is going to be typical. Mac is going to be the world series here. He comes and when we got to the ballpark that day and they scratched at about five thirty or six o'clock for an eight o'clock game. We were all just. Oh my gosh what's going on. And you know they gave him a shot of course zone on his neck or shoulder wherever it was and then he was came out for game seven and just the inspiration of having him on the mound. You know. If it's seventy percent of Max Scherzer one hundred percent Max Scherzer. It's still Max Scherzer on the mound and there's the resume in the person the name Has so much cash aid to it? That if you're the Astros you're like oh my Gosh Max's pitching tonight. What's going on here so it was pretty cool to see that whole thing evolve and you know I was right on the field with a with a microphone and camera man. After game seven we came right on the field and we do. We do the interview. So we do the Games during the season the network kicks us to the curb and we do pre game and post game kinda like onfield reporters for the postseason And I totally forgot what I was doing. I started hugging players and I was one of the first guys I saw Pick me up. Lifted up we were screaming together When it was hugging players everywhere my partner is doing the interviews and I was just celebrating with the team so it was such a crazy. Amazing Wild Run and play or broadcasting. It was my best year in baseball. Ever it was incredible. Oh I can imagine I mean nothing can beat something like that especially when you weren't the favorites it's the you know the gritty little underdog story. Because nobody expected it. Especially when you start out. Nineteen thirty one after fifty games. And you're just like oh my gosh But you know you're you're you know you get to the postseason and that was the nineteen to thirty one start. As I briefly mentioned before was off of the fact that your best player signed with the Phillies in the off season. Bryce Harper left to go to the phillies. Now this season heading into defending your world title you lose arguably your best offensive player again Anthony Random he goes to the angels so now this team's got yet another rallying cry of basically nobody believes in us because we lost anthony. But you lost you lost Bryce the over four and you still want it. So can I mean? Obviously it's way early We haven't even had their first exhibition game. But how big of a loss though is random going to be to this lineup? He's a loss to the lineup. He's a loss to the defense am. I think he's everybody's good as Nolan. Our third base He's a loss to the clubhouse. He's lost the community. I mean he's just he's one of the nicest guys we've ever been around. He's the same guy every day you would know if he was ten for his last ten or Ole I last ten with ten strikeouts. You didn't have to tip toe around him in the clubhouse if he was having a bad go of it He's always smiling. Had Fun playing the game one of my all time favorites and we kind of had a feeling that that he wasn't coming back Might somewhere around the playoffs. We were hearing rumors from a few players here and there that he might be heading a different direction. Which is okay because you know you worked so hard your whole life to get to that free agency and to get to that free agency and have the season that he had is not easy to do so It's hard enough Steve. Just play six years in the big leagues but to get to that six year and have the season he had was just incredible arguably an MVP type season he won the world series. And we're all happy for him that he got the big deal in Anaheim We're GONNA miss them and the community is GonNa Miss Him. He was big with the Nats Youth Academy. He would go work with underprivileged kids. Every single day He spent his all star break last year. He was tired and didn't go the All Star game. He got crushed by fans for not going. The All Star game turns out. It's a pretty good decision because he was still strong in October. And basically help the nets when a world series almost by himself with his offense and defense so I could talk all day about him. He's one of my all time favorites. We're GONNA miss him dearly and everybody in DC. He's GonNa Miss Them. The fans the team the front office broadcasters. Just a great guy man and that's baseball man. That's the nature of the beast and we kind of get used to it. We get desensitized to it because our best friends get traded when we play guys move around broadcast or you develop relationships with these guys. 'cause you're around him so much and he's one of my all time favorites. Yeah No. He's he's a stud and the angels. Obviously we're GONNA benefit from having him in the middle of their lineup. Now and we look at it and as you said kind of when we were talking about the bachelor stuff with Jacqueline Defense Wins Championships. And this team is going to be. This team is going to go. As far as shirts or Strasbourg and Corbin. I believe take them as as always. Starting pitching is is key. You can have a pedestrian offense. But if you are just shutting teams down and holding in three runs and have a solid bullpen. They're going to be an every game. I just don't see Max in Strasbourg. Corbin having you know sub. Five hundred seasons So they're gonNA be right. How much they you know they're gonNA lose offensively with with. Anthony might be picked up from other people that might step up to the plate. You know we'll see we'll see I'm curious to see how Max at his age response from giving everything. He had gone so deep into October. That's to me. The one question mark I have the Guy. Works harder than anybody. I've ever been around. But at his age to dig as deep as he did last year. Getting back to our story about missing game five and going to game seven with the cortisone shots pitching deep into October. They played as long as they possibly. Could they played select Tober thirtieth game? Seven is is as far as you can go My big question. You know the the bullpens been ramped up the everybody's signed back how Kendrick SPEC Zimmerman's back Yang Gomes's back. I mean everybody's back but how are they GONNA is? They're going to be a hangover number one. Which I don't think there's been no team that's laid in the weeds. More than the nats. The Astros are getting all the attention. The nats are just landlords so that that's conducive to repeat and they're not getting swamped by the media And how Max Rebounds at Age Thirty Five. I believe from pitching so hard and so deep into October. Yeah and the one other guy wants you to talk about offensively. Who's the next young stud in the National League? Is One Soto a some of the things that that guy does? At the plate kind of you know are different You know the stare down the dirt stuff but it's him and this is who he is and I don't think he's trying to show anybody up when I first saw him come to the big I thought he was and then I looked at it. Like oh no he does it. Basically all the time But this kid is this out of this world and we're talking about somebody that's what twenty twenty one twenty one when he turned twenty one in October October twenty fifth. Yeah and this kid literally legitimately was was an MVP candidate along with Anthony last year Where is this guy's where do you see him? And where's the comparable in major league? History that you have one Soto. Ooh I don't know about comparable I'm I'm I'm not there yet. I don't know I do know he's GonNa win an MVP do you know he's GonNa win a batting title and Steve? I got so many text messages from former teammates during the world series in the playoffs. Saying what's this guy's deal? He is the nicest most humblest twenty twenty one year. Old Mature beyond his years He learned English faster than anybody's learned it in our minor league system He's a smart kid. He's a smart baseball kid. He's he's just. He's a pleasure to be around every single day. But the shuffle he does it. The play got a lot of attention on negative attention on the biggest stage and I was trying to tell my buddies. What a great kitty is. That's just his thing man is just like he's ready to hit. He's engaged in every pitch. He's engaged every at bat and if you watch them on a daily basis for one hundred sixty two games. The more demonstrative the shuffle is the more confidence he has and there was a time when he struggled early in the season. The shuffled kind of went away. More kicking dirt between pitches but when he's feeling it when he's locked in it's a it's a big production And I always say baseball polices itself so if anybody has a problem with it they can. They can buzz the tower if they want but the thing is baseball players talk text. They've never been more in tune with each other than they are in today's game and I think what happens. Is Everybody tells the you know the other team. That has a problem with it that this kid is not a jerk. He's the greatest kid you'll ever meet and I think that buys them a Lotta slack with what he does. Between pitches you talk about a lot of the players being in touch with each other and whatnot police themselves and now we're we're coming up on probably. I mean that's being argued right now. What the Astros did and the scandal. That's going on and what happened. In two thousand seventeen commissioners report is going down as legitimately one of the if not the biggest scandal in the history of baseball like out doing the steroid era and whatnot. And I want to get your thoughts on it from what you what you can say when you read the report. What was your initial thoughts on what should happen to the Astros? And Are you satisfied with the punishment? Do you think the players should have been suspended? Steve We've been hearing rumors about this for years. Now we've been hearing rumors about buzzers. We've been here about rumors stealing pitches and technology in the Astros. And we've all been sitting there going if this ever comes out if this are you kidding me. This is going to be so bad for baseball. Several gets out. So we've been hearing rumors not about names per se but about the Astros in how technologically advanced. They are and cheating. And it's kind of been. The secret did not secret throughout baseball per last two or three years So now that's all coming to fruition. I didn't know about the trash. Gannet a bag near the trash. Can we do whatever they doing was really really bad And and now that we're sitting here not that you want to compare bad things to bad things you know. The steroid was Sturdier era. It was terrible for baseball in. And I got caught up into it. It's well documented And and I and I think good people make bad decisions but knowing what pitches coming is that's the hardest thing about hitting if you know what pitch is coming in a guy's got a nasty slider and that slider looks like a strike for fifty five feet in the last couple of feet of breaks zone and you know it's coming and you can lay off that and you know in a fast balls coming in and you look into a specific zone with a fastball. I mean I was to forty five career hitter. I WanNa thank you. I could at least hit two fifty if I know at least two ninety if I knew it was coming all the time. Because that's the hardest part guessing wrong you guess in. I was the guy on our team was big into pitch tipping. We're looking at the guy's gloves and if it did something or you know he took a deep breath. It was off. Speed pitchers became set at a different height. Or gloves tilted. A certain way or glove was wider. You know I'd say Goddamn Gaza come over me. He's doing this change up. He's doing this on fastball. In you know we would steal signs at second base to. If you're smart it takes three or four pitches and you can rely on to the hitter. Everybody's been doing it for as long as baseball has been baseball. But when you start adding technology in algorithms and you know possibly buzzers and garbage fan garbage can banging that's like crossing every line you could possibly cross And you'll ask any baseball player like the legit signed stealing. That goes on within the game that has gone on throughout the game for hundreds of years. That's okay that's bad on you if I'm stealing your signs. Make your science harder to steal. If you're tipping your pitches. Don't tip your pitches. 'cause that's your fault but this whole thing that that's a whole different level as far as punishment goes ran. I don't know you know. I know good people make bad decisions. I met Jose Altuve A. He's a great guy. I don't know if he cheated. But he's part of it So the thing that you just get caught up in it and these guys got caught up in it and there's no. There's no drug like success. There's no drug like winning. So do I condone it? Absolutely not it is maybe the worst scandal in history of baseball but as a former player I can see their side a little bit and see how maybe you get your little bubble. You drive to the ballpark. You got your twenty four browse. You're doing this together. You kinda like shaking your hand and blood like we're GonNa do this and then you get addicted to it much like a gambler gets addicted to gambling. And you can't stop. You WanNa stop you. Try to stop. You can't stop but man this is this is I mean they took it to a whole different level so the empathetic side of me as a former player kind of sees how they could get caught up in it but absolutely just. It's terrible that they did and it's terrible for the game that they did and it's not fair all these guys that I mean. I was joking with a friend. I have in the dodgers organization before this all came out. I said if this ever comes out you guys might finally win world series talking about twenty seventeen and there's talk about taking that world series away from. I don't know how you do that. I really don't you'd have to say well. The trash can bang them that home run and it would really be six to two right now instead of seven. I don't think you can go back and do that. Yeah I really don't know I don't think he can't either. And you know the whole thing about suspending the players that were involved and admitted to it to the commissioner but they did it under immunity basically like. Yeah if you guys tell us what you did. You won't get suspended. So everyone asking for suspensions now is kind of you know barking up the wrong tree because they agreed to say this but I think it put them in a bad position and you know. Here's the thing that I was interested in just being a former player that you were the whole thing about policing yourselves. We've heard about unwritten rules in the game of baseball for years. My thing was. I'm sure you've seen the video the one incriminating video that came out it was a white sox. Astros Game Has Danny Farquhar seven Gaddis us. You've seen the video right the banking okay so on that video. It clearly shows that four core is onto what the Astros are doing. He even steps off the mound calls the catcher to the calls the catch of the mountain and basically tells them they're onto me. They know my science. We gotTA SWITCH UP SO. My question is this. Why not after that game? Does Danny Farquhar not tell reporters in the post game interview? They knew my signs. They're doing something I heard banging noises. What's going on from that dugout? It was being relayed to the hitter. They're doing something that's awful. Why did it take fires this past off season to to be the one to blow the whistle on something that has been known in baseball? Like you said for years now. Well you know it's the it's the old adage you know what happens in the clubhouse stays clubhouse and were small fraternity but but. I'll tell you this we knew guys were working in their bats back in the day meaning for those. That don't know you drill a hole in the bat. You put court wine Cork in there. You plug it up makes your lighter. It has a tennis racket affect The ball goes farther off the bat. But your manager checks their bet you better make sure you don't have anybody using a corked bat near team so my point is is if you're GONNA say they're paying a trash can your closet better be super clean before you go into somebody else's closet so maybe other teams were doing similar things. Maybe not to the extent that the astros were doing it. And you gotta be careful super careful if you're going to go after somebody else that you don't have anything any skeletons in your closet too okay. I'm just just just theorising. I don't know what the White Sox did. I don't know why I can't get in anybody else's head in the old days put one right as ribs if I'm talking old days when I play the nineties. If if there was a trash can bang enter a third base coach whistle? I guess what there was ninety. Six in your ribs in that stuff stopped immediately. Yeah but these guys don't do that now. Stevens Kinda lovey-dovey baseball world. Facebook friends between each other. Were instagram buddies. You know there's not a lot of thrown at people anymore. There's not a lot of you see inside pitch down at Knox somebody down. Fifty thousand people go back in the day. There would be no reaction at all to an inside pitch so the games kind of been a little bit sterilized. You can't break up a double play. You can't run over catcher. You throw inside you get suspended for two weeks so maybe that has a lot to do with it but back in the day and even further back in the nineties if a third base coach was whistling or someone wishing dugout something was going on pitchers used to step off and look right at the guy at second base is at. Uky landslides from second. This guy's going to get hurt. Get back on the mound and if he kept freelance signed one of the ribs. And that's what I talk about the game police in itself in my mind. If I'm playing against the Astros I hear some weird stuff going on. You can take care that real quick with one and the ribs not could not saying that. Hey hit somebody for kids listened. That's not how you go about it but back in the wild west and the old days. That's how you did it. That's how it was. I think one of the fascinating aspects of this whole thing is just that you're you're looking at video technology now being used to do it like you said when you stand at Second Base. It's been going on for years. Second Basement can read. It can only the only runner that can really see what the catcher is signaling. And then whatever you do you dust off your pants. You tip your cap. Whatever you do to relate to the batter. Outside inside fastball. Changeup WHATEVER MAY BE With this they're using technology which is obviously taking it to a whole `nother level so now my question is does video need to be banned from the game because you look at it because now players with the advent of social media and videos and technology and launch rates. Velocity all that stuff you look in an at bat between innings JD. Martinez came out the other day. And said I don't want this to be banned. I need to look at my bats between innings. When I'm in a slump I want to go down into the DUGOUT and look at my swings but is that now do you think in your opinion should should video game be ban now. I think you have to think there. I think you have to And it's funny because you know back in the day if you made it out you come back to the dugout. You're slam your helmet and slam your bat. You'd say a few choice. Words you going on the top step and you watch the game and you sit there next to your teammate. And maybe find the Guy Tipping pitches. Now everybody runs down into the tunnel into the clubhouse and watches to see if the umpire missed the call on strike three. They WanNa see if stripe to was really a strike. They WANNA see their swing a real time if you're D. H. In the American League you can watch your at bats and see what they're doing in their be. I mean you don't even have to be on the bench so in my mind and I'm sounding like get off my lawn. I'm really old right now but I think it'd be better for baseball in general if you did your homework like you didn't school and then the game is a test Either pass the test. You Fail it based on your preparation before the game. But you shouldn't be able to open your book or go study in the middle of the test and I think that's kind of what we have going on right now. We're guys are going down the dugout. Hey they're using second sign from second we we got him the replay guys got him and then that kind of goes on and then. You're not being a great teammate. I don't I think you're kind of being selfish. If you go down to try to analyze your swing in the course of the game smell the top step rooting for your teammates. And maybe you see something. In the course especially as a young player to the younger guys are the ones that run down and look at everything and they analyze overanalyze announces paralysis. I've seen it happen. I've heard stories from coaches with the nationals. Over the ten years that I've been here in a lot of times it just suits you well to be more involved in engage in the game itself for your teammates and you can learn a lot that the game of Baseball Steve. As it happens is an open book. And if you sit there and you look and you watch every game. It's a tremendous story but if you're down the clubhouse you're missing pages to that story I mean I in same with it'd be an attest. Prepare for your tests three hours three and a half hours a night. There's your task you shouldn't be able to study for your test in the middle of the test and I think one of the things that you also brought up about put into somebody's ribs is that's the kind of the fear right now and the what the Astros are going to be facing this season Dusty Baker the new astros managers already pleaded to Major League baseball. Hey this needs to stop because everybody wants a piece of our guys and like I said the fascinating thing about this. This whole scandal is so many players from other teams are pissed voicing it and you just don't see that in baseball very often. I mean Mike Trout arguably the best player in baseball is is is pissed off that the Astros are had got away with what they did You Know Giancarlo Stanton said I would hit eight home runs if I knew it was coming in two thousand seventeen You know it's just one of these things where players are pissed. They're voicing it it's something we've never seen before and I think I think Las Vegas even set over. Under of how many times Ashworth players are gonNA get hit with bald? This year. They set the number eighty three and a half. They got hit. Sixty six times pitches last year. You gotta believe that's going over this year but you looking at it from the broadcast booth. I know it's hard to predict. But how does this play out this season? Does you think. Do you think the astros rally around something like this or is this going to just eat them up from the inside and it's going to be a bloodbath for eighty one games that they're on the road this year. Well I don't know but I do this After being in professional baseball for thirty one years when everything is perfect when your family lives perfect? Your teammates are amazing. Your swings locked in. You can't wait to get the yard every day. You're in the city. You WanNa be in the contract you want. Life is perfect in baseball. It's still the hardest game in the world so imagine adding what they're going to go through in Oakland but they're going to go through a New York. They're going to go through in in. Maybe the All Star game in Los Angeles if they have any all stars I mean I mean you. You could be looking at scenarios where they may have to play some games at home instead of on the road because of you know what's potentially the passion of the fan base is that think they got cheated. Who knows what happens in these places so. I'm hoping that doesn't happen. I'm hoping everything goes off smoothly but I guess my point is. I don't know what's GonNa Happen but I do know that under the greatest and best circumstances baseball's hard and if you add something to that like this I I don't know how they do it even if even if they rally around each other And I'll say this from a psychological standpoint. You could make the argument. That knowing what's coming has taken away from their skills of reacting. What's coming so now for years? I've known what pitch is coming or most pitches coming. I've kind of lost my ability to pick up rotation or to guess to think along with the pitcher because it's done for me from a psychological standpoint. Maybe that's your Superman Cape. And if you take that superman capable off maybe you feel like you're hitting naked now so we'll see how this whole thing plays out but I would imagine it's going to be a tremendous adjustment for them. They're really going to have to be together group. They're bunch of talented players without cheating. And it'll be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out. That's I mean that's that's why I love you man. That's why I love the way initially emailed you just the way that you broke that part down of hey for three years while supposedly three years You know poor only one but it's three years if you win a world series cheating. You Ain't stopping. Why would I stop if I had a parade? WanNa Reagan got a four hundred. Eighty thousand dollars sheriff. I'm I'm GonNa suddenly realize that I don't WanNa do that anymore. I mean it's hard for me to believe they did. I don't know about the Commissioner's report. Said nothing in two thousand eighteen and nothing in two thousand nineteen but like you said if they win a world series admittedly cheating in twenty seventeen which they have. Why would you stop in two eight hundred twenty nine thousand? Yeah I mean it makes sense. Doesn't make sense but like you said right there. I mean three years of being told. And that's exactly what you're missing out on now. You're not maybe the completely lost sight of how to pick up a fastball. How TO PICK UP A change? You just don't know and I do. I think Jose Altuve is GonNa hit two thirty this year. No but it's going to be really interesting and for the rest of his career and Bregman and Riddick You know I think these people are going to be under such a microscope that everything they do now is going to be dissected and compared to their numbers between twenty seven and twenty nineteen. It's going to be fascinating. We've never seen anything like this in baseball before. In my opinion to if the if the policies would have been more from the heart and not scripted. Maybe we can all move on for this but it just seems like thirsty. They were accused of being arrogant before this and they still seem like. They don't think they did anything wrong in for for for me. I never WANNA judge. Somebody's apology it's hard right. Everybody does it different just like everybody agrees differently. But you Kinda WanNa see something from the heart like. Look at me in the camera. Can you imagine if you got in a fight with your significant other and it was a really bad one and you said. Hey I was strong apologize. You pulled out a piece of paper and you start reading off that paper. I mean that's not going to go over to the real world or you know you. You pissed your boss off and you're in hot water. You're the Doghouse and you go into your boss's office and you have a prepared statement. That never works man. Just shoot from the HIP. Go from the heart you know be emotional about to be sincere about it and maybe everybody can move on say. Hey we got caught up in it man. I got addicted to it. You know became a thing that I knew it was wrong. I tried to stop it. I couldn't you know. Just come from the heart and then maybe baseball's a whole can move forward because this is terrible for baseball really is and and we need to move forward and kind of put this whole thing behind us and and as you say that I see bleacher. Report has something out from a couple of hours ago. Josh riddick responded to the criticism by saying at some point you have to move on and not give a shit. We'RE GONNA go out there and win and shut everybody up like again this pets. No I mean yeah I mean. It's not for me to tell anybody how to apologize. But I'm just saying if you WANNA move forward from something anything in life It has to be from the heart it. You have to look somebody that I you have to really feel it and mean it and people can tell if you're sitting there or your fake wherever it is on TV whether it's face to face with your best friend you know if it's been rehearsed you know if it's just apologizing because you got caught or apologizing because you really feel crappy about what you did. Yeah that's the disconnect is most people that watch the apology. Think they're only apologizing because they got caught and not because they think they did anything wrong because they WANNA world series out of it. Why would they think they did anything wrong? Right right right right so I mean it's GonNa be it's GonNa be a fascinating year for the Astros. They're going to be like they're going to be like the bowls of the nineties. Just people are going to tune in to WANNA see when they're on the road what the response is especially like you said Dodgers Stadium Yankee Stadium. Probably the two biggest ones where they are going to get some major major heat and You know the nationals. Beat them for the world series I wonder how nats fans are. GonNa react to them. I mean we you beat them so it's not like you you you might not even be like. Hey Hey you did. You did all your heating and we still beat you. I think it'd be cool. If Nets fans gave the astros a standing ovation there in there. That's Park July. Second third and fourth I believe or third fourth and fifth. Whatever it is. I think it'd be awesome. If Nats fans gave the astros a standing ovation like when they do the lineups just everybody go nuts. It'd be it'd be kind of the anti you know that we WANNA world series. There's no need to have any animosity. And Yeah Yeah. What is see what happens? Yeah so EPI. Thank you so much man for coming on. I'm glad we finally got to chat and You know I didn't think reaching out to you two years ago. Whatever whatever lead to this. You're a good guy and I'm glad you have a connection to the bachelor world. I'm glad we could even talk bachelor to along with baseball. So we'll wait for you. Wrap up wins. Who'd do you know if you don't tell me those no I don't actually this season. You know not yet. I mean I know who they are and I kind of things that happened. Okay the Dutch Shell No But it's it's it's a wild. This isn't here's what I'll say. I'M NOT GONNA mention names but this is not a season where final rose ceremony day. He's got two girls. He dumps one chooses the other and we're happy go lucky and here we are. You know that's it. It's not a normal season. Basically is what I'm trying to tell you. Yeah it didn't look like it based on the highlights and the previews something bad happens. I mean they laid them down the bed. Something going on unless he cut his head open again anyways. Thanks Bro and thanks for having me on your podcast I appreciate it. Now you've got an MP thanks most people touch and have a good seat you heading down there this weekend right yet. But First Games One o'clock on mass in on Saturday. And it's against the Astros so we'll have something to talk about. You think thanks man appreciate it. Take Care Bye. Well thank you so much to Jacqueline and F P for that Jacqueline for some really good bachelor. Talk where I didn't Wanna go down through the episodes. I didn't want to break down. You know what about this date and this date I wanted to talk about kind of nuts and bolts of what's going on and what it means to be a contestant on this show now and it's just it's a different animal and people aren't prepared and unfortunately you're going to get hate or negative things said about you if you appear on the show the only way that you will never get anything negative set about you or anything. Negative reported about you is to not go on the show but we know people are going to go on the show every year. So we're gonNA comment but yeah and we said it will blue in the face. Don't give people death threats. Don't call them fake bitches. Don't harass them on their instagram page. But I could say that all day long twenty four hours a day seven days a week. People are still going to do it. So it's just it's in one ear out the other for most people if you're GONNA do it you're GonNa do it and nobody's going to tell you otherwise but just know that just because you don't do it on their instagram page. And you do it behind their backs and you do it on public forums. That people can see these contestants all read a lot of stuff Just keep it in mind. So there's that as for F P. I could talk baseball with that guy all day long. I hope to make it out to DC. This summer. I don't know if I'm going to do another baseball tour but if I do a DC trip this summer Definitely want to have beers with that guy He's an encyclopedia when it comes to baseball. Knowledge and we didn't get into the nuts and bolts of it because they don't want to get too nerdy of it. I just wanted to talk about the national season last year and then this scandal. That's going on for those. That aren't familiar with it. This is literally the biggest thing that's ever happened in baseball And it's going to be an issue going forward and I wanted to talk about it with him being a former player and Just the way he's able to read into things but listening to him. I was literally sitting at home on it was in June or July. It was an afternoon game. I was watching the nationals. And I don't even know who they were playing and I'm just listening to him in his analysis and it's just like everything out of his everything out of his mouth. I was learning something every sentence I felt like and because the Internet is so negative. Because it's just like you're an asshole. You're a prick. Why do you hate my team and all this stuff? I just fired off an instagram. Dm The guy. And I was like look. I know there's a lot of negativity on the Internet. I just wanted to tell you that I'm sitting here watching your game and just Joe Blow. That LIKES WATCHING BASEBALL. And you are an excellent analysts. And I'm learning something from you and I just wanted to tell you that. And that's all I did. And he responded back. And we've just kind of dammed up until today when I had him on But yeah it was Kinda weird I had no idea he knew Jacqueline when I I emailed him no idea and I think Jacqueline was hanging out with him one night. They got to talk about Bachelor and I think he might have brought up to her reality. Steve or maybe my name came up in conversation and she's like oh I know him and then he made the connection that That I was Rally Stephen. I I was the one that had reached out to him and So here we are so yeah doesn't mean I'm GonNa have sports guests on every week and probably never gonNa have another one on anytime soon but we have the connection with bachelor. Obviously you listen to F. B. Talk about how he likes the bachelor. So there's that as well which added to it but Yeah really good guy if you're in the DC area you probably know all about EFI Santangelo if you're not in DC probably ever heard the inner life but just know. He's a great baseball analyst. And I love watching nationals games just to listen to him breakdown pitch sequences pitch location where who wear a hitter stands in the box. Where pitcher is standing on the mound. What a pitcher is trying to accomplish on a mound? He's he's awesome but I can speak out on that stuff forever and I know you don't care so anyway this podcast brought to you by threat up shopping. Sustainably just got a whole lot. Easier and more affordable with threat. Up Right up is the largest online through store with your favorite brands like Lululemon. Evelyn made well and more for up to ninety percent off. Estimated retail get exclusive. Offer an extra thirty percent off your first order when you go to threat up DOT COM slash Steve. That's T. H. R. E. D. U. P. DOT COM slash Steve for thirty percent. Off Your first order today terms apply. That'll do it to podcast. Number one seventy so for Jacqueline trumbull and F P Santangelo unreality Steve. Thank you all tuning in to talk to you next week.

Jacqueline Jacqueline baseball Steve Thing instagram FBI Bachelorette Peter analyst Victoria Liam Matthews Virginia Guy Hannah La basketball New York
Author Jacqueline Woodson Returns To Ghana

1A

35:02 min | 8 months ago

Author Jacqueline Woodson Returns To Ghana

"This is one A. I'm todd SWALEC in Washington. Jacqueline Woodson is the author of more than two dozen books including Brown girl dreaming which won the National Book Award in two thousand fourteen and her latest novel read at the bone while last year. Woodson travel to Ghana to participate in that country's Year of Return Initiative in encourages members of the African diaspora including African Americans to come to Ghana for a year and try to reconnect routes. That were severed during the Atlantic slave trade. Jacqueline is here with me now to talk about the experience the first time she ever set foot on the African continent. Jacqueline welcome to one. A. Thanks for having me. What is Ghana's Year of Return Initiative? Well it's as you said it's an invitation back To the motherland bat quote unquote home for people of the African diaspora a chance to reconnect with African ancestors reconnect with the land reconnect with the African heritage the various African heritage's and And get a sense of the place that we left many many generations ago. And how did you wind up taking part? How'd you get involved? I got involved because I was asked to write a piece for the New York. Times about it and I hadn't thought that would be the way I would finally get to Africa My family and I had talked about going at some point South Africa at one point. We were going to travel to Rwanda and that fell through but when this opportunity came along it felt like it was the right time to go home so at the right time to go home but as I understand it you were also somewhat hesitant to go along weren't you yes yes. I was very hesitant at the same time and mainly a kind of was side. I think the invitation was it an invitation based on The American dollar and Thinking that into African soil We had you know some of US had Exist in this country in a very Economically Sound Way and I think the invitation. It's expensive to travel to Africa as expensive to rent. A hotel is expensive to get on the plane. it's expensive to take time off and the invitation to come there and be a part of it was not to do so for free so so. I kind of side I the idea of do they want my African Diaspora. Excel or do they want my American dollars. Are they trading off the fact that I'm pretty motivated to go and have an authentic experience in Africa and I'm willing probably willing to pay for it? Is that just another just another marketplace exactly? Well I did question that and ultimately what tipped the scales for you the said okay Worth worth the money certainly but the experience trumps the the the commercial the commercial demands. Here I think a number of things tip the scales One was my children. I feel like it's important for them. I felt like it was important for them to see Africa and we had traveled extensively. You know and Europe and it made no sense that black children hadn't experienced Can soil I also given the climate in America for People of Color. You know it's horrible and so like that if we need it to go someplace else if we needed to live someplace else where would that place be? Where where could our family feel safe a spirit of maybe scouting out someplace else to go? That's fascinating Will this was your first time ever going to Africa? I mentioned so so. Take me back to that moment or maybe that I our. What was it like for you stepping off that plane for the first time it was interesting. I I mean I in terms of the plane ride itself when we transferred We had to get a flight into Ghana and we went from a really large well taken care of plane to plane to one that was really small and It just felt ignored in a way. In the way that made me nervous stepping onto that plane and flying And then getting and going from a flight that I think we changed in London but going for a flight that was predominantly white to going getting onto a plane that was predominantly. Black was amazing and then stepping off that plane into And getting into the airport and seeing so many Black and Brown faces. I think it kind of was deeply surprising for my young for my two kids but really surprising for my part and I too And felt deeply familiar in a way that it's hard to explain In terms of stepping into a country that you've never been in In this case you know Ghana and feeling like you had been there before I'm interested in the first six hours of your experience you know. You're you're feeling a sense of familiarity. There's black and Brown faces everywhere and yet urine American. You're a foreigner. You grew up in a very different place. I know that for sure. Many of the things you see and hear and smell are very different from home. I know that to take me inside those first six hours for you. What was going on in your head. Jetlag the jet lag. It was the sound of GonNa you know of across the city streets that were so filled with sound and I I think one of the first images that really stays with me was watching. African women walk through the streets with bundles on their heads. And this had almost been this kind of cliche image growing up right the minute you see some cartoon of an African woman it has something on her head. And to the point where it was almost defensive when you saw it as a cartoon and then to get into the real world of this and see the beauty and the brilliance of their straight backs and the balance and To see these huge bundles on their head as they walk through the street selling everything from plantain chips to plastic bags of water And to see you know little black kids running through the streets as well all of that Was it felt lovely in this way and also very surprising I think the noise of our really Interesting to me in that. It reminded me of course a lot of wind. My family spent time in Mumbai was the same kind of crazy traffic in the streets But but here every Person we saw was my complexion just about and every sign we saw a billboard was a black people and this was something of course we had never experienced in the US except for White Jesus which was also released. Oh so all these black and brown faces in the streets on the mopeds everywhere on boards. Yeah and still and still white. Jesus Jesus you know the missionaries did their work we did. God makes me laugh. There's almost a whole boy. There's almost a whole show there So there were you know. It's interesting even about white Jesus when When we get sober about it I talked to people about it about how they could. You know see white cheeses and in all of this black and Brown and And believe that to be Jesus and And what people said was really interesting. It's like that's just the body. That's not who we see as our savior like that that it's almost like looking at a cross right. This is just this something that represents what we believe in but is not necessarily. We don't think that a white man is going to save so so. I thought that was really interesting to really kind of investigate that because I I was like wait. A second is up with this so it was Something that was eye opening for me in the way that I went into The country thinking about Certain things one way and left thinking about them another way. That's fascinating well. There's a whole bunch of activities offered during this year of return trip that you are on. There's a natural hair expo first bath of return a naming ceremony. Were you at any point? Skeptical about some of these some of these add-ons and maybe what the point of some of these things. Where I mean you mentioned already that they weren't free and I. I wonder if some of them gave you either. Kinda hokey feeling or a feeling that maybe somebody was was taking advantage of what clearly was very deep experience for you and for your children you know I. I didn't participate in a lot of that and and I was very intentional about that. I really wanted to go to Ghana And see if it was a place I could feel that I belong to and I think in terms of the naming ceremony. I know people who participated in that and were completely moved by it I know about the African naming ceremony and and I do believe in that. I do believe that That idea of having a baby bring it into the world and waiting to see who they are before naming them and in the same way that to go back to Africa to go back to the motherland right and and get a name. There is a very moving thing But but I didn't want I didn't want to participate in it because I really went there with a certain intention and it really was not to mock what they were doing or to To say that that's not right. I again going back to capitalism. I did question that like you know. Are they trying to get my American dollars or is there some truth in this so Natural hair ceremony. I thought that was interesting because two black women. Don't get in a room and not talk about here. I mean that's what we you know. Here is a very huge part of our culture in conversation. I mean we have this amazing here. You know we have this here that can do so many things so of course you know. We make choices about what's going to happen with our hair at the workplace. What's going to happen with our hair in the public space? Who CAN TOUCH OUR HAIR? Who can't touch our hair And so so that it made sense to me but again it wasn't what I wanted to be a part of with my family on my journey back to Africa Jacqueline. I read your accounts. They reminded me you know. There are similar programmes in Israel designed to give American Jews a connection to the country while visiting for the first time in a lot of people see these trips as eye-opening some see them as inauthentic propaganda to build support for the state of Israel. I wonder if you sensed the politics are very very different but I wonder if you sense any of the a a similar or at least analogous conflict Well you know. Birthright is a much older program and And Israel is a much richer. Place I mean Africa has the rich soil but the land has been raped for so many generations I do of course there is a similarity and you know Establishing birthright program for People who might not have a connection to Africa because so many generations of their family have been in the US Are Not in the. Us outside of Africa So I I think that there is this sense that it makes sense. It makes sense to this program. And there's this idea that People are going to approach it in very different ways right. I talk to people who who would not even think about doing something like this And I've talked to people who went and did it and were changed but but I i. It's interesting because as a as someone of the African Diaspora. I do think now that every black child should go to Africa at some point And I didn't think that before I went. Now that's fascinating. Yeah you you you think. It's an experience that every black child would benefit from which which argues if that's true for a vastly expanded return initiative birthright pro birthright like program for millions of kids And I think the US should pay for. It would be amazing. The United States government. Yeah yeah that would be amazing. Isn't it you know Puerto Reparations? Just pay for that. Birthright trip birthright trips to Israel are free not paid by the government of course although maybe some people suspect that they're they're paid by private foundations who who think that it's important for young American Jews to go have that connection. Yeah well I wish we had that kind of money but we know what happened to black money in this country so You know if they're those private foundations out there. That could help make this happen. I would. I wouldn't mind that at all So so it'd be interesting to see how it happened. A fascinating argument though that to make that. There is a renewed reparations debate in this country people talk a primarily about money although it's about so much more about building wealth about wealth stolen generational wealth stolen. But here's an idea that has much more cultural currency right. I'm having all of us. Contribute to the to the return at least momentarily or spiritually of of black kids To where they're people came from It'd be amazing. I think it's I think it's a fascinating concept I had not. I had not heard that argument before. I WanNa play you just a little bit of an interview from the CBC. In Canada Ghanaian American writer. Yahya Jesse who spoke about her trip to Ghana and the transformative experience of Turing The Cape Coast Slave Castle which would become the basis for her novel. Homegoing listen so in two thousand nine I got a grant from Stanford University where I was studying to travel to Ghana and conduct research for this novel And it was while there that I took a tour of the Cape Coast Castle which is a slave castle in Cape coast in the central region of Ghana. And I had never been there before had never really heard about it before And it was on this tour that the tour guides started to talk to us about how the British soldiers who lived and worked in this castle with sometimes Mary the local women and then from there he took us down to see the dungeons and I was so struck by the idea that there could be women up above walking free kind of unaware of what was going on below them author. Yod Jesse talking about her experience visiting the Cape Coast Castle on the Cape Coast in Ghana and the basis of her novel. Homegoing I'm speaking with Jacqueline Woodson. Jacqueline hold the line for just a moment. We're going to take a pause and that I want to talk about some of your experiences Seeing similar things seeing slave castle during your trip to Ghana with your family as part of the return initiative that you went on Ghana's year return is an initiative to encourage the descendants of slaves to visit the country where thousands of Africans were sold into the Atlantic slave trade writer. Jacqueline Woodson participated in. What's called the Year of return? She wrote about the mix of emotions that she experienced during her trip much more from Jacqueline Woodson and her travel memories on. Todd's will it's wanting support for NPR and the following message come from our Sponsor Target Entrepreneur. Ray Phillips reflects on the mentorship and support. He's received from target throughout his journey really to have a company like target. Extend a helping hand and guide. Us along in the process. It makes all the difference for any striving company looking to play on a higher level. Learn more about how target supports diverse entrepreneurs at target dot com slash founders? We love do you talk about the news with your friends? Your family or perfect strangers. Get the facts. You need to be up to speed on this busy new cycle so you can share what you know on the news. Roundup find the podcast in your feet every Friday on a secret military recording a sound so haunting one scientist believed it could change the world when mind was racing as I listened to this and I thought this this is the way join. Npr's visit Delia. For the first episode of our new season speaking with writer Jacqueline Woodson about her trip to Ghana for the country's Year of return initiative and what returning to Africa means as an African American straddling the line of multiple identities Jacqueline I mentioned fellow writer. Yeah Jesse we also played some of her sound from the CBC In Canada in an interview describing visit to a slave castle on one of her trips. And you and your family went to a slave castle during your journey there. What was that experience like for you? Walking where enslaved Africans were kept for weeks? If not months you know I think if I had been in the castle alone Or in the fort's alone it would have been a diffic- Dif- different experience and I had heard from so many people about the experience that I feel like I had my cards up around it But I think if I had been alone I would have probably broke down and cried because what is true is the energy is still there. The smells are still there You know the sounds of the slamming gates are still there. You walk out into the courtyard. And the guy is telling you how the women were chosen To be raped and then B and given a bath so that they could be presented To the rapist again and again and and And you think about the hundreds of bodies piled into these very very tiny spaces and how fed it though spaces became and the deep disregard of the history of the black and Brown body and I think All of that definitely comes rushing back to you And I write about this in the Times article you see the water and the water is so beautiful in this way. And also so heartbreaking because it was the point of no return people stepped out onto those ships and never saw home again but you could really feel that deep despair in those spaces and And for me. It's also this idea that as enslaved people we were not meant to survive right so many of us died in those for so many of us died on those ships so many of us died once we got to You know the US the Caribbean to your wherever The trading took us And so many of us died during the hundreds of years of being enslaved and that In the fact that we survived is amazing. And it's what I tell my kids every single day But also standing there with my family and thinking again. Wow We survived this and therefore we are amazing So it was definitely a lot a lot of feelings going on. I didn't break down but but every sense is involved. You know you hear it you smell it you see it. You feel it You know you tasted the many you open your mouth you Feel the hunger of the people It it's just it's a lot and and I would. I would do it again. I'm so glad I went to that Ford to I'm so glad I saw the water. I saw the passage way and and I'm so glad for how evocative it was. You Know I. I had similar experiences in different places. the only thing. I can tell you is that some of them left a scar and feelings feelings. That have never gone away. And I've been in places like that for myself that I thought I would never want to go back and actually really hard for me to know that it was a better experience for you and one. That's wound up being one of connection and positively with your children. Well you know there's a saying about about people of the African diaspora and Africans in general. Is We carry with us. Our wounds and our medicine right and so that idea that you can go to these very hurt places and they can be healing. Are you know how to heal from them Because it's about survival so and I think that's why I write for adolescents. To go back to those heartbreaking places and and create something positive about it of course of course that makes much more sense I think about myself as an adult and how hard that was for many years visiting similar places that just as I said left a scar and and for adolescence it can be so much different. Especially when they're guided by an adult and by a writer but by an adult who can hold their hand Well I'm interested in in how you grew up thinking about Africa and how it was different from the Africa you saw once you found yourself in Ghana. Was there a clash there? You know I grew up with a very theoretical Africa I didn't my my family Came from the south right so they we come from a history on my mom's side of enslavement. And we come from a history on my dad's side of free blacks and and it's just interesting that in that narrative there was not Africa so the Africa that I knew I one of those people who probably as a kid. Africa was a country. Right until I learned about I learned that it's a continent and it's huge in many many countries but but I didn't have a lot of information about Africa until I started studying it and then even then like my connection to it was so far removed that even saying African American didn't feel like it was a connection to Africa if felt like it was a connection to being African American Which is complicated and hard to explain? But it wasn't until and then every you know again. I talk about this like the cartoons the racism in the cartoons the supposedly African quote unquote savages in the bones in their noses and all of these These really Destructive stereotypes of what That represented on television about Africa. Push me further away from it right And it wasn't until I really started understanding my own genetic history that I began to understand the greatness of of of that continent and The history there something that you were concerned about ahead of the trip you've written was how your family your white partner. Juliet and your biracial kids would be received and looked upon by people looking at you in Ghana. How was your family received? I you know I was often called sister. I think of the family. I probably move through Ghana the easiest and I was traveling with my friend Katherine McKinley. Who goes back and forth to Ghana and WHO's Biracial And Very Ghanaian identified I think my kids. It's so interesting because they're African people in Ghana because this is where I experienced it were so friendly and so kind to the children right. Even the other children like the minute. They saw our kids. It's like you know running to play with them and there's just this kind of openness of embracing family I think For for my partner they were. We constantly got asked if we were sisters. I mean if you saw my partner is ridiculous. But but maybe they didn't mean you know I all biologically sisters so it was It was a lovely lovely reception of course in places like the markets where people were trying to sell us. Lots and lots of stuff. I think my kids got seriously. Overwhelm US Because not only were items being pushed at them but they were being pushed at them in this very friendly way right so so so and they're they're very polite kids and then they're not going to say you know. Get that out of my face. I'm not interested. They'll engage in a conversation while walking backwards but but it but it was When we talked about it afterwards they were ready to go back you know. They're always there ready to see another part of Africa. They're ready to travel back to Ghana. So that makes me think it was a real positive experience for them. We have to take a short break. But we'll be back with more from author Jacqueline Woodson. Just a moment. Todd this is one A. From W. Amu an NGO support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber. Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help. Make safer journeys for everyone for starters. All drivers are background checked before their first ride and screened on an ongoing basis and now uber has introduced a brand new safety feature called ride. Check which can detective trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about. Uber's commitment to safety visit Uber Dot com slash safety. Hi I'm a new Rhody and I am the new host of NPR's Ted Radio Hour. I am so excited because we are working on. A bunch of new amazing episodes were exploring big ideas about reinvention making amends and the psychological effects of climate change our first show drops March thirteenth. Please join me. This is one A. Returning now to our conversation with Jacqueline Woodson and her year of return experiences Jacqueline you write about how you experienced a kind of double consciousness. While they're belonging at at the same time not belonging and I think you started to allude to this a little bit a minute or two ago. What does that feel like to you is is that feeling? That that you feel can be reconciled. Yes I think it is. I think it is feeling I have here in this country right. I am of this place you know I. I'm from this place but I really I'm in this place but my I of this place I don't know I'm very American in so many ways and in so many ways. Not You know the same with New York. I grew up in the south until I was seven. And so those imprinting years. I'm very southern so I feel kind of outside in New York all the time and so getting to Ghana and seeing everyone who is my complexion Or darker or a slightly lighter Walking like ideal you know our language the way we speak is different but the openness is the same feeling very southern to me And then it not being my place. Right it. It's kind of For me in the end it did feel like yes. This this is this is how I will always walk the world and yeah in more than one place. Talk a little bit more about that. That two feet in two places or feet in multiple places feeling because it's fascinating you know it's a it's a it's it's at once Kind of A. It's a gift right when you look at it. Positively if I didn't have feet in so many world I wouldn't have been able to write thirty two books. I mean you know it's it's kind of it. It's what bills empathy is how we begin to understand And at the same time I do wonder what it would be like to exist solely in one place in one body as one being and that's never been the case for me So so going to Africa. I didn't go to Ghana. I didn't feel like I was going to be completely outside of simply by the color of my skin I knew that some part of me was going to have a belonging there But I didn't know that I would at the same time feel This outsider ness and where the outsider would play out. It played out You know of course in economics. It played out in language. I feel like I can't I played out. I moved differently than a lot of African women even though my daughter moves like the African women so that was all very interesting to me. Will you said that there isn't enough space in the New York? Times travel section to to capture the enormity of this experience. I hope we've gotten closer in this time we've spent together On the air. But if you could go down a road that you haven't explored yet in writing about your trip to Ghana or your children's experience or your experience with your partner I don't know of. What do you think that would be I think I would. I would want to go down the road of my children who identify as black and biracial right. You know. They always say we're black and Biracial to to make sure both of those parts of themselves are are acknowledged. And what does it mean to be black and Biracial in Ghana What it mean to be completely immersed in an African culture for say five years ten years. What would that look like for them? I think there are so many roads and I also think I want to hear other voices I wanNA. There's so much room to write about this to write about our experiences. As African Americans Caribbean Americans and as Africans So so I have the roads that I would like to explore but I also am always so interested in the voices of other writers telling these stories. We've talked on this show before about how American journalistic views of Africa can be so very narrow you mentioned before the idea that Africa's one thing of course it isn't. This sounds like an opportunity to broaden that perspective make it even more granular than before to get more voices talking about the personal experiences visiting Africa exactly. Well we talked a little bit earlier about what you really wanted to get out of. This trip was some truth. I I suppose that's what writers are always looking for whether they're fiction or nonfiction writers. At least I hope so. I think the truth ultimately is what you're looking for do you. Do you think you got it. I think I got some of the truth. I think there are many of them and I think each time I go back. I'll get some more but for me. I feel like the truth that I got was that I am of that place to and And that matters that that I can go there. And and even with the sense of belonging I felt to also feel that sense of belonging and next time to go and explore what that truth means and how that truth manifest with more time there with knowing more people with doing more stuff So yeah you're it's you know I think as writers we're constantly searching for the truth that matter to us and by extension matter to a greater good in a bigger world and I'm I'm at the beginning of him and I think sometimes that that sense of belonging that you get a little bit of a sense of your first time you go to a place that can give way to a sense of longing to go back and be part of it and maybe that's in your future to Jacqueline Woodson author of Brown girl dreaming and read at the Bone Jacqueline. What a pleasure. Thank you for joining us. Thank you nice talking to you to this. Conversation was produced by Haley. Blasingame edited by Matthew Simonsen to learn more about them and the rest of the team. Visit the website at the one. Eight DOT ORG. This program comes to you from W. Amu part of American University in Washington it's distributed by NPR until we meet again. I'm todd will look thank you so much for listening. This is one A.

Ghana Africa Jacqueline Woodson US Jacqueline todd SWALEC writer African Diaspora NPR Brown partner South Africa New York Washington Rwanda Canada National Book Award Europe Yahya Jesse
126: XIX: New play development with Jacqueline Lawton, JaMeeka Holloway-Burrell, Jules Odendahl-James

Artist Soapbox * Local Artists on Creative Process

47:11 min | 4 months ago

126: XIX: New play development with Jacqueline Lawton, JaMeeka Holloway-Burrell, Jules Odendahl-James

"Hey everybody welcome to artists soapbox. Artists Soapbox is a podcast featuring triangle area artists talking about their work, their plans their manifestos. I am your host Tamra Kazan. Hey friends. This introduction was recorded on June six, twenty twenty. The interview was recorded on. May Fifteenth Twenty Twenty? I'm pleased to bring you to episodes featuring the work of Jacqueline Lawton, playwright, dramaturge, producer, and advocate for access equity, diversity, and inclusion in the American theater. In this episode along with Director Jimmy Holloway, barral, and Dramat- her jewels. Odin Doll James you'll hear Jacqueline. Discuss her new play nineteen. Nineteen was commissioned by the Women's Theater Festival and celebration, and reckoning with the one hundredth anniversary of the nineteenth, amendment. Nineteen is a sociopolitical drama following a multiracial family who find themselves in the middle of the fight for equality and divided over the right to vote. Nineteen received a public sharing through the UNC process series in February of Twenty twenty, and there will be staged reading at the Women's Theatre Festival on July eleven twenty twenty at seven thirty PM. So put that in your calendar. You may have noticed that many of the twenty twenty artists soapbox episodes have focused on playwrights play writing and new play development, and that is certainly the case for this episode, the wonderful guest trio of Jacqueline Jamaica Angels' Digs into play riding topics such as translating a historical event into a contemporary piece, deciding what story to tell, and who should be the center of the story, the development process and the roles of director, dramaturge, playwright and much more. In just a moment, I will read the guest Bios so our conversation can begin, but before that some historical context. Regarding the nineteenth amendment I have included links in the show notes, and you are always invited to reading, conduct your own thoughtful research in order to deepen your understanding of this topic and the struggle to extend the right to vote beyond just theory into practice. However as a review. One hundred years ago, this August the nineteenth amendment was ratified and added to the Constitution Amendment nineteen reads as follows. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex. Here are a few points to keep in mind. Women I organized and collectively fought for suffrage at the national level in July of eighteen, forty eight. The victory of the Nineteenth Amendment in one thousand, nine, hundred twenty seventy years later was the result of decades of struggle agitation. And Protest Against Misogyny and Patriarchy women marched and protested for the right to vote. Women were imprisoned tortured and beaten for participating in these protests. Although many activists in the early women's movement were abolitionists. White women discriminated against Black Women from within the suffrage movement, despite the important work conducted by black just. Especially in the Post Civil, war southern USA the. Mainstream Aka white suffrage movement perpetuated racially discriminatory practices and condoned white supremacist ideologies in order to garner southern support. Speaking of the south here's a north. Carolina specific note. I I am reading this verbatim from the NPS. Dot Gov site. You'll see the link in the show notes quote. By the time the nineteenth amendment reached the North Carolina state legislature in August of Nineteen, twenty, thirty five other states had already ratified it. Many. Americans thought North Carolina would become the thirty sixth and final state to ratify the amendment, but many of the state representatives could not agree on whether or not to recognize women's suffrage rights. Then news came that Tennessee had ratified the amendment making it that thirty six state to ratify the nineteenth amendment. In one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy one fifty years later. North Carolina ratified the Nineteenth Amendment and quote. So. After the passages of the Fifteenth Amendment in eighteen seventy and the nineteenth amendment in one thousand nine hundred t states found other ways to discriminate based on race and gender to prevent voting and to control the outcomes at the polls. Poll taxes, literacy tests, and other discriminatory practices led to the passage of the voting. Rights Act in nineteen, sixty five, which strengthened legal protections for black voters however. If you've been paying attention at all, you know that voter suppression is still a big huge ugly thing. Friends. I don't need to tell you, but also I feel compelled to tell you that. This year's November election is hugely important and will be of great consequence. The months leading up to November critical to the outcome, please do what you can get involved. Donate share information. Help people get to the polls protest. Make change do the work. For each other. For our country. And now for the BIOS. Jacqueline Lawton is a playwright, dramaturge, producer and advocate for access equity, diversity and inclusion in the American theatre. Her. Produced plays include blood bound, and tongue tied the Hampton years, intelligence, mad breed, and the wonderful wizard of Oz. Currently she is an assistant professor in the Department of Dramatic Art at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and dramaturge playmakers repertory company. She is also dramatists guild's regional representative for North Carolina. Jamaica Holloway Burrell is a freelance director and producer. She is the founding artistic director of black OPS theater company lead curator for the Bull City Black Theatre Festival in Durham North Carolina and a founding company. Member of Bulldog Ensemble Theater. An alumnus of the Lark play development center apprenticeship program. Jimmy has been an assistant director with the Oregon Shakespeare Festival and playmakers repertory and more recently, an associate director with Duke performances at Duke University. Her directing work has appeared at northern stage in Vermont Shakespeare in Detroit. Classic stage in new. York City Man Bites. Dog Theater in Durham the Department of Theatre at Dartmouth. College Duke University's Department of Theatre. Studies and the National Black Theatre Festival. Joel's Oden, all James is an artist scholar who has been making theater and the triangle for two decades, the COVID, nineteen interrupted season of two thousand nineteen through twenty, she directed as you like it for Duke, university, and served as dramaturge for the zoom reading slash recording feffer enter friends at Duke University and dramaturge for the upcoming world premiere of edges of time by Jacqueline Lawton. Other recent directing credits include in a word by lowering Ye with bulldog ensemble theatre. Men on boats by Jacqueline backhaus with Justice Theater project. Jewels is a founding member of the Bulldog Theater Ensemble after serving as an associate artistic director at Man, Bites Dog Theatre from two thousand fourteen through twenty eighteen. She has an associate member of FDIC and a member of the literary managers and Dramaturge of the Americas. Her new play dramaturge work with Jacqueline Lawton spans five years and over ten plays. Enjoy this episode. Hello Friends Jacqueline Jules and Jamaica. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today they do. For having US I blade to talk about Jacqueline your play nineteen, and the as you know, I'm very interested in how we as theater makers take a historical event and put it in front of a contemporary audience and I'd like to start with the genesis of this piece, both practically speaking so how it was commissioned kind of how you got the ball rolling logistically and then. Then also touched on the creative genesis of the peace. Thinking about what story you chose to tell what historical input inspired you, so I'll just I'll just raise that those questions and let you take it from there. Though the women's festival was approached by the North Carolina League of women, voters, and they wanted to collaborate on a play that told the story of the nineteenth amendment. Amendment how the nineteenth amendment came to be, but they wanted to tell the story in a very truthful on the ground way that acknowledged that for black women voters. This was not everyone got the right to vote immediately. It was a struggle for lack of voters, and that southern white women and men were working very very hard to prevent black voters from Edo gaining the right. Right to vote, so they had a very specific proposal mind because the theme of the Twenty Twenty one season his family, so they wanted to interracial family where the morning of the vote, some women got the right to vote in the family. Some women had not, but they both have been fighting for the right to vote, and so I was very excited about this idea. Because it had complications for the very beginning there, there was conflict inherently involved, but as I talked to jewel who I knew I wanted to work with as a drama teacher because I don't write a play without dual. It's true. It's very had a very immediately. Confront the fact that miscegenation law so laws preventing intermingling of the races were in place in nineteen ninety, so that was going to be very complicated. The questions we had the answer fairly quickly were who is the center? WHO's at the center of the play? WHO's in this marriage you know? Is it a is? Is it a black woman in a white van Miert into white family. Is it a white woman married into a black family and worse, the power, going to be most compelling in most interesting, so that for me is the beginnings of the play beginning to the durations development of the play Joel. Do you have any other remembrance from that from that time? I think you're right that grappling with a circumstance right? That was reality, right? We know that there were interracial couples at the time right, but this wasn't legal so figuring out both how to dramatize that, and to make it dot the crux of the play, right? It's not about the marriage per se, and yet the marriage is what structures a lot of the ability of both. Both sets of women who are married to and what access they have to capital and to society helps them move. Negotiate this notion of voting I think in a way that we felt would be relatable to audiences because we don't. We take our voting rights somewhat for granted, and we don't have a lot of stories that tell about these kind of on the ground efforts. Efforts particularly from a non white perspective, right? We've lots of movies that focus on UK and US white women and different classes of white women, but not necessarily the work of with color at the time that were very invested and had a lot of networks right, so it's a real absent history, which is always what I love about working with Jacqueline, even if this. This wasn't a commission. Most of her work is about unearthing these things that were real. That are real, but we don't hear a lot about it. We don't those folks that don't situated necessarily at the forefront of stories. She makes sure that they are so figuring out how to make that historically accurate, but also dramatically interesting, which is always the I. Think the thing you. You were pointing out in the act of translation. Right we have to we play with were not about doing a documentary per say this fictionalized, and with that comes the ability to heightened certain details at really bring in a way of looking at the world that both reflects reality, but is more than reality because that's the sweet spot in theater, and I just wanted to say. Say to that. You know recently like this week I think the attorney general said something about history is written by the winners, and it really struck me in thinking about this play. Is that art I think that's why art is very necessary. Because art is the space where we don't necessarily hear from the winners point of view, they usually make an appearance, but they're not. Not the ones driving the story. This is the place where we can actually hear other histories other realities that can really press against what we think. We've been what we told her what we've learned about a particular event. Yeah, I think there's a lot of power in the choice that we as playwrights and theatre maker is make so tell me what you think about this. This I was thinking about dramatizing historical events in terms of managing three streams of time. Because you have the past to consider, you have the president to consider, and then you have potentially the future to consider so, what future are we pointing to with this interpretation of the past events in the present moment? Do you know what I mean? Is that something that you consider? That such a compelling question, 'cause I actually don't think about time. In that linear way, and that mostly has to do with the fact that as I'm writing it such an ancestral process for me, because in order to dismantle supremacy one has to decent center whiteness. My entire life is that my entire existence as a black woman is a D. century process so. For me. I'm always writing from a point of view of I'm here because those who came before me survived. And exist in the hope is that because I was able to exist pushing the way they did those coming after me. We'll have it a lot easier and our will have. Pathways in tools in their cities will be built stronger. Because there is a recording of now, that's taking place, so I'm so fascinated by that by the trajectory of the question that places a linear structure on time. And I know that that's a real thing. It's just that's not how I right so one of the things that excited me about working with Jimmy Gaz. Director is because when Jimmy in a room with actors. Jamaica your presence is so strong. And There's an unearthing texts that you do. That is a quick embodiment of the texts into the soul of the of the actors, and it's not just that we're reading in. We're constantly where breath. Constantly. Aware of of how we are engaged with each other, but we're also up on our feet, and as a teacher of play rating. I do vocal warm ups with the students I do. Movement exercise with the students always a reminder that the Texas meant to be alive. So I'm probably not answering your question I'm not doing it on purpose this way I'm just trying to explain how I write. The stories I right. It's always now. There's always a relevance to now because my existence wouldn't be here. Had those before me not survived. So they're always present with me. Does that make any sense? Absolutely and I mean in part of this conversation is just getting a window into the different ways, in which people make new work, and so it's fascinating to hear about the way that you do it. Jamaica I want to bring you into this conversation. Talk about how you are approaching new work. I know that you have recently been doing a lot of work with citrus by Celeste Jennings so you? You're deep into this idea of new play development, but can you talk about your relationship to nineteen and reference some of the things that Jacqueline just mentioned sure I think for me. New Work is just so exciting because of the relationships that one gets to forge inside of a process of new work. And so I think this is one of the one of the first pieces that Jacqueline and I are getting to work on together and I think a big part of the process for me is really trying to just lane in to understanding Jack. Will and more her process her writing that just feels like a first step for me, just getting the chance to just on a personal level. Understand the person that you're working with. I think that's half the battle. If we SORTA like get to know each other on a on a familiar level in, and also still you know keeping it professional and all that jazz and one of the things that really drew me to this piece. When I got the chance to read, it was the sort of hope and optimism that these characters I'm the first two characters that we meet that they had, and also in that sense of betrayal by these like white women who they who were family to them. The process for me is just with new new plays, really just trying to get to know the playwright, and so that I have a handle on their voice when they're not in the room and the good thing is jacqueline his in the Roman she so him visiting our processes. That's really great for me. Because again I'm really just trying to get to this place where. I feel like in a sense I can complete her sentences in. Think like her when she's not in the room so that then I can better shape her story because I'm working I'm working in service to the story, but I'm also working in service to. His Vision, and that from me is the most important thing in a process is to make sure that I'm getting it right obviously layering on my own. Lenses and interpretations on a work is it's fun, but that's not the crux of why. I'm doing the work. It really is I. Feel chose Zan. It feels like a calling. A director has made a decision in their mind that they want to work with you, and so for me. I, WanNa Ross the occasion by freeling concrete in what I understand about the playwright jacqueline. Would you talk a little bit about? Let's see how to frame this. What I'm trying to get at is I think there's a little bit of a mystery around what it's like for. For playwrights to work with directors and tags and other people associated with the production When I was coming through school, we didn't work with new place. We worked with playwright who would never be in the room, and so there was a lot of mystery around like well. When you actually have a playwright, they're like. What do you do with that person? How what are some best practices both for the playwright, but also for the people who surround that person, do you? What are your thoughts about that? Well. I I feel in. That was very lucky because it ut Austin, we had the opportunity to work with professional playwrights students, so we were in the room as as playwrights redeveloping their scripts, we either actors or assistance to the playwrights, or we're learning how to be drama. Ter-, so I got to learn really early on about that about a new play development process in each individual playwright. It was different, so for instance you have playwrights who loved having the actors talk immediately about their experience of. Of the play to their point of view in some playwrights only wanted to talk with the director. dramaturge are someplace. DidN'T WANNA have conversation at all afterwards? They just wanted to take what they experienced. Go Away, come back with the new with their new new pages the next day, and then after Grad School. I worked at Willy Mammoth, so their new plays all the time, so I learned I learned another process, in I was a part of the Kennedy Center's inaugural playwrights intensive or got to. To meet a lot of directors and playwrights My formative years were spent with realize playwrights in the room with directors who love new plays with really thoughtful actors, who undersupply analysis and understood how to play with characters and I should have to talk about the journey of the played their point of view, but also from the place of a human being in the world, so I feel like my process is now amalgamation of all of that were I really love being in the room, hearing actress. Actress talk about the play like I love having I mean I'm also an annoying playwright. Gills will attest to this because I want the feedback immediately like I. WanNa know what working with isn't working. How can I push through for clarity? Pursue from our humor so much so that I'm looking over the shoulder of drama dramaturge as they're writing, I'm very hungry for feedback so on a new vitamin process for me. I love the island to be fun. Joyful, deeply collaborative space where and I I don't. I don't exploit actors. I. I like to have them there for the time. We need for as much time as they WANNA. Talk after release them and then work with director in the drama dramaturge. On the play. That's that's my process in so in terms of like creative process when we got this commission interracial family. Suffrage, movement and active betrayal him happens, but then I also knew that was an hour. Long play because we wanted conversations to happen after the play around voting rights issues. We wanted to for people to sign up to vote. So we knew it was an hour long, play at I the questions that I had answers who needs to be on the world. The play also wear that even before cove, nineteen regional theatres need to be conservative in their spending so four character play who are the people who will spend the most time on the stage because I want centered on the two Black Atalay, the lead character, her best friend Florence renew that and really helped me with this. We knew we wanted to spend the most time with the two of them throughout the journey, but family have the mother in law who is just delicious. I mean this. The actors playing this character of my goodness, but so one exciting thing is that after we heard the read through. This is part of the process series the UNC process series. We share an extra for the play. After we read through with with play with the actors, people wanted more of course I understood having our, but what more can we add? And I just was able to add a scene with Mabel the mother-in-law, genevieve, the daughter of Mabel and. And Adelaide. It's I'm very. No one has read it yet, but I'm very excited about this thing, and it wouldn't have come if we hadn't had that reading if Jamaica hat and said I, WanNa see how she responds to the vote having been passed, but she works hard not to have the vote passed so for me. That's such a wonderful space where I get to build. The play makes stronger because of the contributions of the carburetors in the room. Yeah and I just wanted to I. wanted to add to that this conversation about process that I think number one for me in a process is just recognizing that no-one process. It's going to be the same even when you're working with the same playwright as we're telling different stories like the processes around like how we engage each other in the story is always constantly shifting and I think one of the things about Jacqueline's processes that are most exciting for me is that there is always shift? I think so far. We've been a part of two processes together and some of the things I say the saying is that Jacqueline has always gonNA feed her people. Which which are re I love rigging there always needs to be a little Norwich on the table, but the way that we engage different people that we get in in the wrong with is always slightly different in their something exciting about that for me. Well I think food is definitely a best practice that we all should remember you know I'm I am absolutely the worst about feeding my people, which is why usually have somebody around to remind me? Can you be with the food because I'm just gonNA UNWRAP and eat whatever I have like but I don't. Don't think about feeding full, and that's super important. Yes, absolutely that I want to step back a little bit to some of this looking over Jill's shoulder commute guts into the moment of what is happening in the room when you are having a reading or a rehearsal of the process series. You can pick whatever you WanNa talk about what does that moment look like? How does it function and then I'd like to ask each of you what you are looking for based on your role. What are you kind of tracking in that moment duels you start. Well I was GONNA say that. There's usually stuff that's happened prior to the room room where the actor is sort of get I peak. Usually I've seen if not one or two versions or Jacqueline, and I've had sort of conversations about where her thinking has lined up, and I will leave the structure of how the other things happen. Yes, we are all fed always and it is i. think just a way to build community particularly for readings or workshops, which is really difficult. You're asking actors to step into a to give you a kind of full world when they've never even seen the characters, and they've never met each other, so whatever you can do to make that space feel communal from the start and food, and just sort of genial. And the willingness to say this, there's no expectation of a particular kind of way this goes, but it wants to go in a kind of joyful boolean. You know when we're all together and setting that tone, you can get so much more from people because immediately they start to feel they're in. They're not in just any space right there. They're in a space that starts to feel real, and that I think comes through in their performances. But then we're all sort of sitting and I'm trying to listen with two perspectives. I'm trying to listen through what I know and have this great sort of insider view from talking with Jacqueline and knowing very much about all details of the back story, and I'm trying to anticipate listening someone who's never heard this before, so that I can give two sets of that. My response can be filtering those two perspectives right, which is the draw for? For my practice, that's the drama Turks position, ultimate insider and brand new person who's never seen anything and somewhere in between is where you lie to try and find because you don't want to explain everything, but you also don't want to be missing people because this is such an in crowd space. What about you Jacqueline? What are you paying attention to? In these moments well I am trying to the people, so that's one of the things. Like the, Half will be the first person to eat in normal food is that I can't eat so like I try to make anyways Lathrop avid everytime, but FM sitting there, so the thing that's happening which is I don't know how to stop this. I'm still writing, so the actors will need the actors to keep going so like as like they're. They're reading the play. They're becoming alive to me. And that allows me to actually start over in a way to try to capture so actually rewriting as on hearing the play being read, so you know oftentimes they'll be a typo or something, and so I'll have to be told what page that I'm. Is Not because I'm actually not. I'm actually really truly listening to them. I'm just a little bit behind them in the play, but then I'm also eager to sort of also doing revisions at the same time I'm working to cut exposition and the thing that I have to Mike Practice is to allow it to be what it is in the moment and know that I have time to go back and make adjustments, but what I'm. My instinct is to do the work as as it happens because I had the luxury right now, actors reading the play to me, and then of course having Gills next to me. I'm getting I mean. We spent a lot of time a lot of time talking about the plays like. Whether, it's on facebook on email on text message 'cause I'm always thinking about the play, and I'm asked angels questions, and we are often working on multiple plays at the same time, so I have to be like very clear that this question is release. Play this version of the play. I mean it's so exciting to be in the room when the actors are reading the play because. I mean this. Is it I mean the beauty then becomes when the audience comes right, because that's when the whole process is now complete, because then you have the audience, which makes the actress come alive, sometimes even more, but the other thing that's released citing is once the actors in the room I'm able to start to imagine what the play looks like in that three dimensional form. How are they interacting with each other? Are there hand gestures that need to happen there last zero other pauses there. Breath being taken, you know also as playwrights craft language. They're often crafted in complete sentences complete well written sentences, and sometimes they're dashes where we know, interruptions will happen, but the thing I love to. Is that as actors or reading in often times for the first time, maybe for the second time, but the first time out loud. Their own personalities show up into the word, and that allows me to make even more distinctive voices come through to the play, so it's a very. It's a great active space. When I'm in the room with with the actors with Gills with my director. Really I really love this collaboration with Jamaica. She's very different type of director than anyone. I've worked with the most exciting way. Because there's a real crystalizing of humanity in real. Miss in grounded nece that happens. It's very exciting, so it's a lot of a lot of work. That's happening in the room. I never settled. I can't sit back and just listen. I don't even know what that would feel like to be honest. I may need to practice at one day though. What do you think Jamaica are? What? What are you trying to do in this moment? Yeah just Jacqueline I'm also like sort of I'm trying to strain law, but I'm also like all over the place, but I think one of the first things that I wanNA do. I get into the space with actors is encouraged them to be bold and to make bold choices so that then the playwright you know had something to sink their teeth into when they get home things to question things to. and. You know for me. I wanted to make sure that we're grounded and what the story is, and what the playwright wants on this story, but also like I just want the actors to feel this sort of freedom to then also feel like they can make choices and like what Jack will instead. So so many times like the actual voice of the actors star select impede into into into the work until I want to encourage them to bring more of that out so that the end like especially in a new play development process, and when not right now? Exclusively thinking about performance thinking about the development of it so I really just want to encourage them to see what parts of themselves they can bring to the work I think another part for me. Part of the process is really trying to like I. said just grapple with the playwrights, voice, and intention, and I WANNA make sure that on the right track I before I feel. Feel like I can give out any direction to anybody really just trying to get myself into with the world with a voice in the story that we wanna tell so I'm doing that work, and then I'm also ranked I'm also like Jacqueline Jules. Already have this like sustained relationship. They worked together a lot so I'm also like trying to look over and see what the two. Two of them were talking about this I want to be inside of their head is oh, but for me I'm really trying to establish the new play process like established what the vision years for the Peace Jacqueline. Do you have a sentence that encapsulates the vision for your plays, or is this something that you're determining as a part of this team moving forward sentence meeting like? Like what I'm trying to take the big question of the world applying I don't know. I think what Jamaica is saying is like super interesting. What is the vision for the play and my question has to do with? Do we determine what that vision is that something that the playwright hands over, or is that something that is determined along the way? Oh that's a great question. I always looked at my plays as I have the characters the world there's a there's a clear world than I'm creating. That gets built upon. By designers by the director by the actor so that that final product? Which of course you know ephemeral right because each night, the performance is different. It's a vision of all the collaborators in the room. That's what I feel and. I were in service to the script as much as anyone else works in service to the script and the stories so I have some big bold ideas coming into play as that may get there, but don't necessarily need to live in the world. The play and I will cut I am. Be The person are will cut I know and I I I know. I cut out. Quickly but But yeah, I I work in service to the story in the characters as much as anyone else, and I think each iteration of the play through different collaborators will fill different, but at the center of the story and characters. Is that initial spark that you from the world? The play itself. I remember being in undergraduate and learning from a set designer that we had to come up with a sentence describe the world of the play at a boil everything down to a sentence, and it seemed like of I was terrible at it. I sort of like what is this I could see how would get you to kind of crystallize your ideas but I also felt it was tremendously constraining when I started to work on new plays, the thing that was so exciting about it was not that I understood there was there was a world right, but the notion of boiling things down right or getting it all into a box this. This was very much. A tradition of looking at plays a very particular kind of play, construction, and I think plays both emerge, and take so many different forms, or at least that's what I like about plays that I could say that they are probably and and one day when there is a book written about Jacqueline as a playwright, this will be a thesis of of an academic right there, so there's a universe, and there's a continuity to to the things that drive a lot in Jacqueline Lawton play, but at the same time every world every every process ass is slightly different. It is being animated by a an intense kind of. About people and stories that have not been told before, and I think that. Both. What's been nice as a collaboration I think I've said this to you. Jacqueline is that there are certain things that we do really well. We kind of hold each other in chat right so they're impulses that I can sort of see happening and say maybe not or absolutely. This is the time for that sort of thing, and then there's a way of working that I think Jacqueline's. Accepted for me like when I'm writing notes and I, don't want her to see. It's not because that something's bad. It's that I wanNA process the way that I convey it because I wanna hear of it in all sorts of different ways, so it's this beautiful working on a project and working on many projects is both the individual evolution of story and the evolution of an entire working process, which is so wonderful. I've never been able to work with. One playwrights sustained for this length of time. I hope I am a good collaborator in that sense. Sense, because it's been such a gift to me to watch somebody watched work evolve in such an amazing way, and each process being both the same and different, and then feeling like I am able to give better insight for the next piece we work on because we've worked on other plays together. I must say that as a playwright. That kind of question that. I asked You Jacqueline makes me feel very surly like you answered it much more gracefully than I would when people ask me to boil down to world of my play into one sentence. I'm like I you. Isn't that your job? Like what am I a marketer like? Not says, but I'd never. been asked to do that. Thank goodness. I was just GonNa say that I think what I mean. When I say you know me. Just trying to grapple with the playwrights vision is that I understand that that we're all coming to this piece in the script from very different walks of life, so we're all. On first intake take it in buried differently, just based on like our view in perception of the world in for me, it is about sort of stripping away. F- I those things that I immediately am drawn to and lean into in trying to. Not Substitute there, but at first just really get to the crux of what the playwright wants to say, and then I can begin to layer my voice and my ideas on top of that, so I think the thing is that I wanna just like. Take me in the way that I examined work out of the process at first so that then so I can really lean into jacqueline, watts or any. Any playwright and then build on top of it. It sounds to me like your approach to this is thoughtful and considerate, and also acknowledges that this is a complicated job to work with somebody to build something that's multidimensional and layered, and so I think you absolutely implied that in what you were saying I just latched onto that because I was wait a minute I. Don't know how we do this like. How do. We are coming to the end of our time together. There's so much more that we could talk about. Is there anything that you would like to touch on before we wrap up well I? Think the one thing I want to share about this planning team. That I think is very exciting. Is that to receive a commission where they say point blank? We want to make sure that this is not a glossed over talent of a very hard and painful moment in history is is really quite wonderful in that. I've been given really free rein to go as deep dark hilarity as I wanted to with the scrapped. And I think that's really incredibly exciting as a as an artist to know that. This moment in time that I had been wanting to actually write about, but hadn't carve out space for because of other commissions in projects that it's actually going to happen and to be able to work with Jamaica and Gills both of whom have lived here in the Raleigh Durham Chapel area much longer than me has been really exciting, because this is a story that's rally in Durham based, so I'm speaking to community that really knows itself in. It has its own personality has its own identity language. To be able to work with folks who who live here especially to make a who is this is this is your home, you know. That's been just really really wonderful, and you know the artists that are here. you have long lasting relationships with people that are here. It's quite an honor to be asked. Tell such a story such a rich complex. I, think urgent story particularly right now because we're at a time right now. That intersection analogy is so necessary in yet we have not figured it out and buy we not meaning black folks although black folks do need to work on some Intersex. Analogy But. There's like a writ large world that hasn't figured out intersection Like in my rain to go to these critical moments, where Oh, Gosh, where we could have figured it out that moment right there in nineteen twenty. What we all doing that you didn't figure this out nineteen twenty so that that's also been really exciting to explore with this planted. Make sure to share that with you all I hope this play propels us to examine our skew relationship with America's historical events. I want our audiences in sort of stand how tactful and systemic exclusion! been and can be and I want them to question the wise. The why for decades we've wanted to Um to keep black folk, people, color and women out of decision making processes I want white folks take a look at the oppression of black women by our allies or people that we feel allied with. That feels really pressing to me because I really do think we have this very rose colored. We have rose colored glasses lots of times when it comes to how we we as Americans have reached the point that we where we are now and I just want us to I. Hope that this drives us to to further examine historical events the way that they've been taught to us in the past yes. Yes. All right so now I have one more question. Is always happens. Towards the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned Jacqueline that part of the vision for this is that I is having post show discussions and conversations, and that seems to be an important part of this. So would you talk a little bit about how you imagine that might happen? What would that look like? Well. I think it could be one of a number of ways like I think. A discussion led by Jones's drama tour with myself with Jamaica with the cast is always exciting, because audiences really do enjoy learning more about that process of from development to be number sold to bring it up a live on stage and I also think if we can get community leaders whether they're grassroots, activist organizations, imminence groups, specifically voting rights groups like those people on stage talking about issues that should be in the forefront. I think those. Those kinds of posted discussions are also really wonderful I learned a lot from the fiend post show discussions re bringing experts in the field around a particular theme so even so the limited in the play they raising money for their section of the Negro Eleven Voters League so we have recipes from the nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenties in the in the world play and I think he didn't people who understand history through foods with ways in culture. Having those folks take partner. Push discussion particularly around thinking about where we. We are now the country where there's so much food insecurity where class is dictating health through access to Food I. think that's such an important conversation. Haven't post show I mean I can plan you apportion going around themes 'cause. I really love being dialogue with really really smart people, so that's what matching, but the the theatre also I also wanted to make sure that people are registered to vote to so we wanted to make sure that the league women leaders if they were there we actually either had laptops set. Set ever guided people to the process of how to register just to the right to vote is one that was hard. Earned and folks lost their lives for it, so those who don't vote I do understand many reasons why to fill disillusioned disenchanted the process. I really want to encourage active citizenry, so that does very exciting have played. Whose sole purpose is that? They own away. Thank you for this conversation and for the work that you do. I'm so grateful for all of your wisdom, and I can't wait to. Experience the process of this the continued development process of this and the productions and performances along the way. Thank you so much. Thank so much for listening for more information. Please see the show notes and. So, folks dot Org. You can also listen to the six episodes of our new scripted audio fiction piece the new Colossus at the new Colossus PODCAST DOT com. Thanks so much.

Jacqueline director Jamaica Jacqueline Lawton twenty twenty Jacqueline Jules North Carolina Jacqueline Jamaica Angels United States Jacqueline backhaus producer Tennessee Joel Jimmy Tamra Kazan Carolina Peace Jacqueline Edo National Black Theatre Festiva
Author Jacqueline Woodson On The Power Of Storytelling

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

46:41 min | 4 months ago

Author Jacqueline Woodson On The Power Of Storytelling

"From NPR and Wvu are Boston I'm Anthony Brooks. This is on point. Jacqueline Woodson has written over thirty books mostly for kids and young adults. She writes about family and Friendship Love and loss all the while consistently and deeply examining the concept of race and identity in this country. She's built a career on. With kids two stories, so, how is she processing this moment in America right now? And how can we talk to our kids about it and joining me now from New York City is Jacqueline Woodson. She's an acclaimed children's book author. Her books. Include Harbor me. Brown girl dreaming the day you begin after two pack and D foster and miracles, boys. She's the twenty twenty recipient of. Of the Hans Christian Andersen Award the first American author to receive the honor in over twenty years, and among other awards. She's received the carbonic at award for Newbury honors. to Kereta Scott King awards the Langston Hughes Medal and a National Book Award and Jacqueline Woodson. It's a great honor and a great pleasure to have you with us today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. It's good to be here. It really is and I want to start off by talking to you about the virtual. A Kid Lit Rally for black lives. Matter which just happened recently you helped organize it. It was a two hour event. And it aimed to both empower and educate children about race and racism and provide a safe space for conversations about how parents and teachers can to young people about it. Tell me tell me how you thought about this event, and it was important to set it up. I think it was important for us to set it up I. organized it with Jason Reynolds in Alexander was. We felt like young people were getting left out of the conversation, and we because we're in touch with them, and we see them we we see their fear, rec- either confusion around this, and because we primarily right literature for young people. We knew that we could have a meaningful and. Awful conversation with them through the platform of a rally. And, so we started organizing started getting other writers together. It had originally been planned that we would just do this to our rally, but then eventually we put it up online for people to continue to watch whenever they need it to. It's really an amazing thing to watch I. Guess You had some fourteen thousand people who logged on, and of course it lives on you can. You can watch it right now, but. An Amazing Response what did that tell you? What did you hear I? Guess from from the young people in in what it says about this moment that we're in. It says that people to me are are willing to learn willing to listen are hungry for information about how to move through this moment, it's it was gratifying to see so many parents watching it with their kids, and we set it up so that the early part was directed at the young people, and the later part was directed at the educators and caregivers. And and and it. Basically told us what we already knew that this is a this. We need to be having this conversation continuously. And we need to be having it on multiple platforms for multiple audiences so that the change can happen on a major level. I WANNA. Play a clip of you actually if you don't mind just because I loved the way you addressed these kids and and fellow artists and authors and publishers, because you really gave kind of a history lesson that puts the current moment I think in a in a really important context and in a in a context that I think is. Becomes understandable for young people, so here's a small snippet of what you had to say. This country has not always done the right thing from enslavement where black people were sold and used for free labor and separated from their families and children separated from their mom like all of that, that was a mess. That was this country. To having kids, little kids work in factories instead of going to school that there was something wrong with that, and we fought against it again and again there has been unfair stuff that children have had to fight against. And the people marching and fighting in trying to change the world weren't just doing it for themselves. They were doing it to make the world better for all of us, so that's a segment clip from Jacqueline Woodson the author Jacqueline Woodson. Who? Helped organize the Kid Lit Rally for Black. Lives earlier this month and Jacqueline. I I'm just struck by the way you put the current moment in a sort of broader historical context. Tell me you're thinking about that. In terms of explaining this moment to kids. We have to understand that nothing. Happening ever happens in a bubble. It's all part of something that happened before. They think it and and I think that helps us understand that this is not new, and so I wanted I think kids. Don't always get a lot of the truth about American history in schools and at their dinner tables, and and I wanted to break down so that they could see themselves in inside this history and understand how we got to this place. So I'm always thinking about the historical perspective of whatever moment where in in the way history tends to repeat itself and the way in order to break that cycle. We have to know the past Is there something I mean I can I sort of feel two ways about about this I mean on the one hand we've been here before. This has happened to us before. This has happened for a long long time. Can lead to a sort of sense of discouragement. Leads to a sense of comfort in some way and that we've gotten through it before. We'll get through it again I mean. Can you talk a little bit about? Yeah for me, the KEA survival. And I think about how people of Color. Primarily Black and Brown folks came here and we weren't meant to survive right. We were meant to work until we died. Produce other enslaved people who worked until they died. We weren't meant to become teachers and lawyers in presidents and writers and you know. Reported all the ways that we exist in the world and just knowing that small bit that we have inside of us this Survival mechanism is really important and I think that's really important for all people to know right about themselves as a means of like. Yeah, we're in a moment and we can move through this moment because people have moved through moments. Similar a worse before you know, this is not the first pandemic. This is not the first revolution. This is not the first civil rights movement. So knowing that yeah, it's hard. It's a struggle and struggle continues and each time we get a little. We become a little better off because of the struggle, important perspective Jacqueline Woodson is with us She is the author of over thirty books picture books young. Adult books and a few adult books as well listeners. We want you to join the conversation. Tell us how your talking with your kids about what we're going through in this country right now with black lives matter the protests, even pandemic. How are your kids taking it all in? How are you explaining this moment to them? Give us a call at one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five, five. That's one eight hundred four to three talk. One of the things that you told talked about at the kid. Let's rally is that was your own experience when you were a child for part of your childhood in the south, growing up during or a little child during the civil rights movement. So, what did you understand about that? Moment? Those protests when you were a kid. I think the main thing that I. Was I understood was that I was in love. And that I was protected and that my family had my back. And, so so I existed inside a bubble inside a revolution right. and I knew that things were going on. I knew that changes were coming in. They were scary. I knew that I knew about the kids getting fire hosed so I had like snippets come in, but the constant message was. You're going to be alright Jackie. You're going to be all right, so so looking back on it from the adult perspective. Like. Wow! I lived through that. You know I was a conscious human being through that and I'm okay, but that so that that's my memory of that. This idea of of of being safe feeling safe of feeling loved in the midst of of this kind of turmoil strikes me as so so important. It is and I think What's important? I'm sure my mom I'm sure my mom, sure uncles and cousins and aunts were afraid, but what they didn't pass on to me, was at fear, and I think, and there was also a candidness about the way we spoke about things in black homes in black and brown homes. We can't avoid talking about race. You know it's a life or death situation and so growing up knowing. Seeing that seeing that bravery seeing that like? I'm sure they were afraid but but that wasn't. What got message to me. one of the messages that you deliver. Is this decision to be anti racist? What what does that mean? Is that a decision I think for I can't imagine not being I can't imagine not not doing the work to change the world because a if we don't do it, who will also? It's how I was raised. I was raised with this idea of impacting a greater good. It wasn't just about me like nothing is just about me. It's about what what I'm GONNA. Leave behind. It's about who I'm going to help. Lift up! It's about how the world is. is going to be changed because of the work I've done individually and collectively so so an anti-racism. It's it's. It's kind of a no brainer like racism should not exist. So what's the work we have to do to make? It not exist anymore at a country that was built on racism. Right, so it's a huge amount of work to be done and of course it's not just black and Brown people. Who should be doing it? 'cause we didn't invent it. You know. So An, it's the work of the allies. And the allies understanding why this work is important, because it's not just impacting black and Brown people impacting all people and so so it was never a question for me. Listeners. Tell us how you're talking with your kids about what we're going through in this country right now. We're talking with the author Jacqueline Woodson. She's written wonderful books for kids and young adults, and we're asking about how to help our children process this moment in America take a short break. We'll be right back. I'm Anthony. Brooks this is on point. There are only five months to go until election day and week or even every few hours. There's a new twist that could affect. Who Will Win the White House to keep up with the latest tune into the NPR. Politics podcast every day to find out what happened and what it means for the election. This is on point. I'm Anthony Brooks we're talking with author Jacqueline Woodson about the pandemic. The protests in this moment in America. She's an acclaimed children's and young adult book author who has written over thirty books. She's won lots of awards for her writing. She's the author of books such as Brown girl. Dreaming the day you begin, harbor me. Feathers show way and miracles. Boys her picture book. The day you begin has been. been at the top of the New York Times bestseller lists for for many weeks and Jacqueline I'd I'd love if you could do a short reading for US I wanted to ask if you could to do that. Reading from the beginning of your two thousand fourteen book Brown, Girl. Dreaming Your Memoir. In which you look back at your childhood living in both South Carolina and New York in the nineteen sixties and Seventies. Sure I am blonde that long from the time are far from the place where my great great grandparents, the deep rich land on free dawn till dusk, unpaid Jiangkou, water from scooped out gourds looked up and follow the skies mirrored constellation. To Freedom. I am born as the south explodes too many people, too many years enslaved emancipated, but not free. The people who look like me keep fighting and marching and getting killed so that today. Twelve, nineteen, sixty, three, and every day from this moment on. Children like me in grow up. Grow up learning and boating and walking and riding wherever we want. That's Jacqueline Woodson reading from her two thousand fourteen book girl Brown girl dreaming. Jacqueline it's it's so beautiful. I wanted to ask you when you were a child in the south. What was the state of segregation? The South that you lived in as a child? I lived in Greenville South Carolina and I lived in Immunity called Nickel town, which was an all black neighborhood and even deep into the seventies. When we go back and forth my grandmother will take us to the back of the bus. I mean there was still. A serious serious segregated south happening. Through I would say to the mid seventies, and even though it wasn't of course written into law anymore it was. Kind of code of the of Greenville at that time. And how did your you're that? You're living there with your mother and your grandmother? I have that correctly, right, uh-huh and my grandfather and your grandfather. How did they explain segregation to you? And what did they explain if anything about what was dangerous about it? you know I don't remember too much talking about segregation. It just was there was just. What it was I, mean the saying when I came to New York. City and we lived in Bushwick and it was the edge of white light white. Folks are moving out. And it was a black and Latino community that was our neighborhood. Ridgewood was predominantly Italian mission Irish, and Bushwick was predominantly Latino and that that wasn't what we talked about this our. Our neighborhood these people it was more about the danger of going into white neighborhoods. It was more about the mistreatment of white people against black people, and and what stores we should, and shouldn't go into because the people in that were racist. You know my grandma. We didn't go into the dime store. Which I think might have been a woolworths. Follow you around. They're not gonNA. Give him my money and it was just kind of matter of fact. This is this is how we do it. You know if they're not going to treat US fairly than we are not going to give them our money. And so that's what I understand like. This is how you do it. Jack! We've got some callers on the line. We've got some questions for you. Let's go to Carol. Who is calling from Norton Massachusetts Carol? You're on the air with Jacqueline Woodson go ahead. Thanks for the call. Hi Jacqueline I'm a big Fan I actually teach at Lesley University in the Graduate School of Education and I'm. Teaching an online course right now actually is ending this week in the masters of Elementary Education, and ironically I say serendipitous Louis I was planning to assign the other side this week. and possibly read it aloud to my students on zoom call as a great follow up to what we've been talking about so growing up in the New York section of Brooklyn in the six fifties and sixties. It was very natural for me to be friends with children of all shapes, sizes, and colors never really made any difference to me but of course that's not the case for everyone today and I'm hearing a lot online and even on NPR about White people not wanting to be friends with black people and people of Color, and I just take exception to that It's been my. Work and my life. Whatever wondering if you would be willing to discuss the meaning of the other side at that, it has for you and how you might be able to use it in the classroom or children as a way to. This subject and thank you so much and I. Hope to meet you in person someday. Thank you so much for the call. Jacqueline Gadsden. Sure thanks so much, Carol Wing Anthony and thanks for your question I think the other side is. A very accessible tax, the story of black girl and a white girl who live in town that is literally a fence separates the town. Literal fence separates the black side from the white side in each child parent tells her. The other side is dangerous to not go to the other side, and it's book about children and activism about how sometimes we have to question the rules that are in place and. And change them. Ourselves are figure out ways around them It's actually a book. I wrote in the nineties, and it's actually based on my experience in Park Slope. Brooklyn leave it or not, I mean. I don't think that's too hard to believe I think a lot of times. We tend to believe that new. York is this huge melting pot, but it's very segregated. We know It has the highest. Has the largest amount of segregated schools in the country so. When I when I wrote the other side I I based it on. The fact that I lived in a neighborhood where they one of very few families of Color Blah, and also as you move through the neighborhood, they're blocks where no people of color live on and blocks where you know that all people of color so And then when he did the illustrations, he said it back in the past, and I was really cranky about that and eventually I realized that. That he had given me a gift because I think this country is much more comfortable about talking about segregation as a thing of the past as posted talking about what's happening now and for me, it became a doorway to talking about the president by starting with the past so I tweet the book a little bit I wanted to make sure both girls were equally empowered. I think A. Better Book for this moment actually is each kindness because I. I think that's one of the things that we're struggling with in this country. Right now is how to be kind be kind on social media how to be kind of person. How did you know how to talk to people so that they're able to hear us? without without rage. and I think you can get points across. That are very angry points, but you can get him across with kindness so so that's what I. That's my saying about the other side. Interesting I'm intrigued by what you said about Teaching kindness and trying to project kindness on social media. That's a challenge though it can be isn't. Responded this idea that social media seems like such A. an incubator in a way of rage and extreme and how we need to sort of. Of that and I don't know help. Our kids navigate that. Yeah I always say th-. Before you send out a text or a tweet, imagine it coming to you and how you would feel getting. Right, and so you hold up that mirror of to your actions, and I think it makes you think I think even if you took ten minutes and reread and revise, you can say something. That has the same impact, but is said with love and because the truth is i. know this sounds so remedial, but if we're going to do this work together, we have to be kind. That's all there is to. Know? Let's go to Kay. WHO's calling from Decatur Georgia? You're on the air. Thanks for the call. Hey. Thanks for having me. I just wanted to say. I have a grandson WHO's currently eight years old and we ended up having to have the talk with him. When he was four years old his mom had been a victim of identity theft, and so judge had given her paperwork to keep in her car at all times, because the person was still using her main. and Head of car accident at Walmart you, know. Of course you call the police. And when the police came, you know. They ran her licensed and the girl is a criminal using her name. So you know the officer, of course it. Back and she says Oh. I'm a victim of identity. Please look behind my car seat. I have the paperwork. He would not do it. He put her in handcuffs. He almost threw her in the car. People were filming and my grandson was the car with his mom and he's like. Screaming and crying so My daughter called out my own number. The person called me, said look, here's what's going on. Of course, I'm zooming the get to them. And all of it could have been settled. Had he just looked behind her seat and saw the court paperwork? So because it was such a commotion of the Supervisor Came Out the supervisor did listen to. My daughter, did toward the paperwork out did see that it was not her. but what happened to my grandson? If he was terrified of course I had to keep him. We couldn't send him to school Every time he saw police, he was ducking behind me, so we ended up having to have this conversation about people judging you by the color of your skin. That Mommy didn't do anything wrong. You know that He didn't do anything wrong and it just ended up. You know trying to explain to a four year old child. You know why why? Why did mom was treated like that was horrible? You know and it was just. US having to find a way to explain to a four year old about racial injustice and we still happen. To do these conversations so what I always do I just tell them the truth. It's their fault. Evil with evil when they did and still evil today. Can you thank you so much for that and I'm so sorry that your grandson went through this that your entire family went through this jacqueline. Do you want to respond to k? Now, it's heartbreaking. I mean bless his heart. One thing that I do love his. How resilient young people are at I'm so glad you're there for him. Kate I'm K-. I'm so glad his mom is there I'm so glad that the paperwork was there. 'cause dot forbid we seen what happens to people of Color in so many of these situations than it's terrifying in heartbreaking and and you know. I always think I talk about it in Brown girl dreaming my grandfather constantly saying you're as good as anybody. You have a right to be as good as anybody, and just the fat, knowing that it's of course, not his fault. It's you know it it it has. His not his mom's fault at this is, it's terrible. and I think you did you're doing what you can at an? It's amazing and a fabulous and just keep loving him up and. And him the right way to be and the way to justice I think there's I. The book I'm thinking of right off the top of my head. Well now he's eight, but Abram Kennedy's book I'm anti-racist. Baby was a great book, and Another book called. It's not my fault. I think which is about a kid who seeing all of this injustice in the world, and finally is like okay. What am I going to do about it i? Think that's the. The title I have to look that up but there there are so many great books. There's a book called stamps from the beginning that Abrams road, but he and Jason Renos an amazing writer wrote a middle grade version, and it would be great to do that as an audio book are to read that along with him, so he can, and he will through that book completely understand what happened, and and and how amazing magic and beautiful and strong years. Jacqueline WanNA. Ask You You made the point earlier in the hour. That black and Brown people talk a lot about race because they they have to keep themselves safe you. You talked about this at the at the kid let rally as well. The kid lit for black lives. Rally as well. How do we include White Kids in the conversation? White Kids who want to be involved in the struggle to be anti-racist. The same way. About it I mean I think everyone needs to be talking about race and I remember as a kid. you know we got slavery? People call the ICEE enslavement because we weren't slaves enslaved and and to call people, slaves take the onus off the people who wanted to own black and brown bodies so I mean starting with talking about the history of enslavement, peop- and white, wanting to own lack umbrella bodies, and really having these conversations with your kids about the truth about what white supremacy is in looks like and and and the different roles that people play in it and these hard conversations that happen I don't think you have to have them alone. Because the books are out there you know white fragility. Fragility is a great book to read their so many books that can help. People have the conversations with their young people and one thing they must not do is center black, and Brown folks as victim I think that's the most dangerous thing you can do. As a white person as a white parent, because that makes us seem less than that makes us seem like other I. Mean You have to have honest conversations about why the system is in place as it is and I'm always questioning people who live in very homogeneous communities, and and don't even have a black friend. They can ask a question to. It's just our. You know our Brown friend are queer. Like what is it that makes us live inside. Certain bubbles so I think really starting to question that really starting to talk at dinner and if you have nothing to say. Find a book to talk about that talks about these issues for talking today with Jacqueline. Woodson about this moment, America, in America, about how to have conversations about race. With young people and our conversation will continue I'm Anthony. Brooks will be right back. This is on point. I'm Gregory Warner with NPR's rough translation, so there's a holiday in the Netherlands. Where every year thousands of white folks where black face some people are trying to end that tradition, but in a Dutch way you talk, you talk you talk you talk you talk until you reach consensus. Can you fight racism in a way that brings the whole country with you. That's on NPR's rough translation. This is on point I'm Anthony Brooks on our program tomorrow. We're GONNA. Talk about Democratic nominee Joe, Biden's presidential nominee that is Joe Biden's potential running-mate Sushi pick as a vice presidential nominee, and why make your case leave us a voicemail at six, one, seven, three, five, three, zero, six, eight three again. That's six, one, seven, three, five, three, zero, six eight three today. We're talking with Jacqueline Woodson about this moment in America. She's the author of. Of over thirty books for children and young adults, and she's won numerous awards for her writing her most recent book is read at the bone. Her Picture Book That Day you begin has been at the top of the New York. Times bestseller list for many weeks and Jacqueline. We've still got some more callers. I'd love to go to a couple right away. Andrea is calling from Baltimore. Andrea, you're on the air. Thanks for the call. Thank you tell you I'm like way up in age now I was in New York in the sixties when he had the rioting and stuff like that. And you know it seems like as one conversation with all most of so called lease, and actually align yourself with the system and work with Assistant. Like you know, teach people about races. You know I am not Cathy at all, but these people already know by racism because like. I WanNa know what's the point of keep talking even marching and protesting well she for years, but this is not gonna end and the people trying to do it. Don't even want it to end I want to ask you. Don't you say we should have a different conversation now? They're wrapping a chain. It's up to us to change and by that I. Mean exactly what I mean a country country make sure with him and they should i. don't think that this is ever going to work, and we need to go through our shelves, not only do we. Get from the Caucasian people. We get it from other people in the morning. Look like them. The more they discriminate against them case in point all the people who are able genders. They take all the money so much they don't. They don't. They don't use stores. And they take all their money out. The male flies is one good example here thing. Is You all because we are so? Okay, I'M GONNA I'M GONNA jumping because I think you expressed your question, really really well, and I want to Jacqueline a chance to answer it, but the the thrust of that Jacqueline. What's what's the point of keeping the struggle going? I think that's a really great question. Angie and I'm so glad you. Raised it and I I remember some of the struggles of the sixties especially around Look free lunches in school and and people marching I remember that one of the march was no money, no food, no school, and and basically people saying you know we're going to get our kids out of the system if this doesn't work and I. Think That's what Black folks saying. Now you look at all of the You know. Hollywood black lives rallies with black lives. All of these people creative writers television people You know playwrights actors. All saying you know what if this system doesn't get six, we're leaving it and we are taking our black money with us, and so I think two things are going on right now. I think black folks are saying. We're going to give you a chance to get this right, but we're done. We're out like like we know the power. We have in this country. We know you know what blacks it would look like here and so at and saying you know, show up. Don't just throw up a black. Black lives matter sign on your website, but show me how you're doing the work inside Your Corporation inside your theater inside Hollywood inside your stores, and we do have to make those I completely agree with you. I will walk an extra. You know ten blocks to shop at a black owned store. If that's if that's what's going to make the difference, you know and I think it's twofold. What's happening right now? I think we are doing something that is different than saying. You know what I, but also look at the Montgomery. Bus Boycott. It's like you know what we don't need to read. Your buses go broke. And things changed and I. think that's what we're doing now. We're saying we're going to be out here where we're not. We're not participating in these systems that have historically not worked for us. Are you encouraged as well Jacqueline by the fact that a lot of these demonstrations were seeing all across the country seem to be a very multi racial. I am so encouraged by. I can't say this enough is young people. Young people are done. They are like what wait what? What is this country? You're trying to leave us with you know and this is across all racial lines, and that's what these demonstrations are looking like. They're looking like young. People and Young Black People Young Brown people. Yeah I, mean you know and they are queer and straight, and they are trans and they're saying you know what it stops here, Mike it stops with us like our grandchildren are not gonNa have to have this fight, so so that's very encouraging to me to the young people I say, I'm sorry and young people I say I got your back and I say get out there and do your thing and I support you one hundred percent so I am deeply encouraged by what the people are. Are doing good good I. Mean it's. It's good to hear good news. In this moment of deep deep deep challenge, I wanNA talk to you about how you talk to your own children about these issues, and there's a wonderful bonus at the end of Your Audio Book Harbor Me, which came out in two thousand eighteen. It tells the story about six kids who meet weekly in a room. They dubbed the art room. That's a RTD short for a room to talk, and they talk about their lives everything from deportation to racial profiling. But at the end of the book, you've included a short q. a with your son Jackson I believe he was ten years old at the time. He's twelve now. Is that right? S. So. I WanNa to just play a short piece because it's? It's lovely and I loved listening to this, so here's Jacqueline Woodson talking to her son Jackson. If you're in the art room. What would you talk about current events? Border Control. Breweries brutality stuff like that. What happy things would you talk about in the art room? Are they stopped ripping kid from their parents, let's that's interesting I mean that's a great thing to talk about. I know a lot of grown-ups who say oh. You shouldn't write that for kids because they're too young to hear that and they should still be reading fairytales, and they should still be living. What do you think about that? That's terrible if your kid in your parents do that then when you go out into the world, you're going to barely know anything about what's happening. That's Jackson talking to his mom. Jacqueline Woodson Gosh I just love that. There's another clip I wanNA play, but tell me a little bit about how this came to be. Did you say can I record you? I'm just curious about the dynamic that led to this wonderful moment between. So in the my daughter plays one of the characters in the audio book I play the teacher Miss. Laverne and Jacks wanted to play a role and he reads differently, so it would have been hard to give him the character of Amari because there are a lot of other line so I said how about this? How about at the end you and I just chat as we talk all the time, so let's let's just you know. Step into the studio and have a conversation and we can talk about whatever you WanNa. Talk about an and that's how that happened. At any surprise me. How what surprises! Well he you know. He called me out a couple of times because he was like at one point. I say you know you know. Some people have a mom and dad. Some people have two moms today. He's like well. WHAT ABOUT GENDER? I think? He's a non binary people. WHAT ABOUT GENDER NON conforming people? Okay. So but I love this point. He makes your kid and your parents do that. When you go out into the world, you're going to barely know anything about what's happening. If you if you try to hold back and only sort of tell them happy fairy tales I mean that just seems like such a profound idea and I think it's a mistake that parents often make with their kids. Right I mean we want to protect them. No, don't let them know about what's going on, you know. Let's read them and other fairy tale. Yeah, and let's teach him to be Navel Gazers. You know I think that that is the thing. The one thing that people who write for young people do is we do it with love. We do it with care. We do it with hope. You can't write a children's book without having hope in it. Even if there's not a quote, unquote happy ending there has to be hope somewhere in that narrative to keep. Keep that young person turning the page, and to have that young person. Walk Away from that book selling hopeful and I think that to say well. This book is to Real Life for my young person is is not seeing your young person and seeing how perceptive young people are they know something is happening. They know the world is not quite right right now and to kind of Islam. gaslight them into. thinking otherwise is unfair Jacqueline I can one more moment with you in Jackson, from the end of that Audio Book Harbor Me Here's here's Jackson with a question that I want to ask you, but I'm going to let Jackson ask you. What drove you into writing this book. You know how I always talk about I right because they have so many questions, not because they have answers and I was thinking about all the stuff, I was thinking about deportation, and what's going on with that? And what do we always talk about at home with the NERF guns don't play with them in the park. Because a kid got shot by the police because he had on Earth Gun, but it was hyper colored, and that couldn't have looked like an actual gun, so we get scared for you and I think when I get scared. Sometimes it helps to write about it and to create characters that talk about it because it helps me to understand it more. As Jacqueline Woodson talking to her son Jackson a another lovely moment. also sort of sad that a I mean. I mean lovely. He sounds so ahead of his years Jacqueline. Ten years old I'm just blown away. He's an old man. Always been like that, there's A. Go ahead. Sorry, no, no. Go ahead. Say it of heartbreaking. Guns, anyway we. We don't like him in the house kind of toy gun at anything. Just because that's who we are, but there's always some. Uncle a dad like you know giving him some present that he's ways one in, and then they get in, but it is. It is sad to have to curb the way your child plays right that way. Don't get to play for very long so. But I didn't mean to interrupt you. Didn't at all. Jacqueline what I was going to ask you about is he? Asset Great Chris Question about what sort of drove you into writing a book and you gave this really interesting answer just about how you're thinking about all the stuff in and and he used need to write to understand. I'd love it if he asked expand on that idea. I as I said to him I have so many questions and I think we can kinda lose our minds a little bit with all of the information coming at us so quickly, and no means of processing it from me. Riding allows me to process what is happening in the world what has happened in the world and to get a better understanding of it through the writing and rewriting reading out loud and researching and creating characters who can? Kind of. Beacon narrative that's hard of the question and helped me to see it better I. It's complicated. It's hard to explain, but I think of someone like Kioko, who has? he's from Puerto. Rico which makes him in American citizen. He has a monolingual, Spanish speaking parent that he has to translate for and the hatred that gets thrown at him because because his mother speaks beautiful language and the ridiculousness of that and. The fact that People's cultures constantly getting called into question and the thing about harbor me is I started writing that book a long time ago. I mean we've been dealing with mass incarceration in this country for a long time. We've been dealing with deportation in this country for a long time. We've been dealing with economic disparities for like long time, so so taking those kids and putting them in the room to talk about these questions that I've always had and that you know lots of kids have. Made Sense to me. I WanNa ask you about this particular moment, because kids on top of everything on top of these issues that we've been talking about about racial justice about the protests about black lives matter we're also they are also dealing with this corona virus and lockdown at home, and away from their friends, and all kinds of challenges that are associated with that. What are you hearing from them about this for about this sort of confluence of challenges right now? My son complains about teachers, not knowing how to use ill. I. Think that's one frustration for the young people you know. They're so ahead of us. In terms of using technology and here we come. We also like okay now. I gotta get to zoom call without like. How do we do this again? It's like. Zoo. So so I I definitely hear the frustration and the thing. My son said the other day was like I'm forgetting how to socialize with people, and that broke my heart because it is we. Are you know where pods where you know doing are sheltering where? Trying to figure out how to stay engaged, but we're engaged with a screen at the same time telling them to have less screen time you know it's it's all of these I don't know kind of contradictions going on and at the end of the day. They're like okay. So when is this thing going to be over at the same time? They're learning how to negotiate a main. Automatically! Put on their masks when we. Go into a store, and and again going back to their resilience, and their ways of being able to. kind of move like water with the Times is always. Gratifying Is that the hopeful. What's hopeful about this moment? I mean perhaps the pandemic offering them a chance I don't know to look up and see what's going on in their world. Even though that sounds contradictory, because of course, they're staring at screens the. Screens and everything, but there's something hopeful about that. I think I think there is a chance to more. There's gathering I mean even the family gathering getting around the table and having truck thoughtful conversations with your family. I think in terms of. Even engaging deeper via zoom right knowing that when you see that person, you're seeing inside their house. You're seeing inside their living room their bedroom. And you have a another kind of understanding of I think people are reading. More people are talking more, and even the marches and New York, you know people are heading to the marches and. And being allies and doing the work that needs to be done. Well Jacqueline Woodson was such a pleasure talking to this hour. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Anthony Lewis Great. It really was. That's Jacqueline Woodson she's the acclaimed author of Brown girl. Dreaming the day you begin after to pack and D foster the forthcoming before the ever after among many other books listeners, you continue the conversation. Get the on point podcasts at our website on point radio DOT ORG. You can also follow us on twitter. Find US on facebook at on point radio. Thanks for listening I'm Anthony Brooks. This is on point.

Jacqueline Woodson Jacqueline Brown New York City Anthony Brooks NPR America Black Jacqueline I US Jacqueline Gadsden Jackson National Book Award Hans Christian Andersen president Jacqueline Wan Brooklyn Jason Reynolds Boston White Kids
Jacqueline Woodson: Live at Politics and Prose

Slate's Live at Politics and Prose

54:31 min | 1 year ago

Jacqueline Woodson: Live at Politics and Prose

"This is live at politics and prose AH program from slate and politics and prose bookstore in Washington. DC featuring some of today's best writers and top thinkers it is now my pleasure to introduce Jacqueline Woodson of red at the bone and many others Jacqueline Woodson. It's in is the bestselling author of more than two dozen award winning books including the 2016 New York Times bestselling National Book Award Finalist for adult fiction another Glenn among among her many accolades Woodson is a four time National Book Award Finalist four-time Newbery Honor winner a two-time and Alesi p image award winner and and two time Coretta Scott King Award winner. That's a mouthful and I don't think she's done so she lives with her family. In New York. read at the bone own infused with her signature insight and rich pro poetic prose opens in two thousand one in Brooklyn the occasion melodies coming of age ceremony charting the course of course of two families from different classes Woodson's affecting narrative tackles identity ambition desire and parenthood as well as exploring how the decisions young people make change generations to come Terry Jones is quoted as saying Woodson brings the reader so close to her young characters that you can smell the bubblegum on their breath and feel their lips as they brush against your ear. Woodson will be in conversation with Lynn neary longtime. NPR Arts correspondent correspondent that said please join me in warmly welcoming Jacqueline Woodson inland Neri to politics the low so so I'm going to read a short bit from chapter to of read at the bone which is told from alternating points of view and this is Aubrey Aubrey the father of melody. WHO's having her coming of age ceremony? Can everyone hear me. His daughter was descending the stairs. As the orchestra has in-laws had paid for played she was taking each step as though the world had stopped for her as though this moment where the only moment on earth with her in it and she was finest held ish girl no this woman the the seat of his this cry into the night this apology of a child Irish. I didn't mean to damn I'm so so sorry when when headed happened per with so much of Iris the cheekbones slant of the is the smile would so much what was that thing behind their smiles some long held secret about you both of them knowing you knowing what you've been up to as so they could see taste and smell it on you aubrey had seen that smile so many times over the past fourteen fifteen sixteen years where were the years and still and still this moment with melody walking toward them in this whack rendering of prince filling the house back against the wall. His hands felt unsure suddenly hey I raise have pressed hers to her mouth but what is the father of the child supposed to do with his hands his big open hands. Where were they supposed to go? When all they wanted to do was reach out for his child Hugger Hyder from the world these hands that had learned at seventeen how to snatch smelly diapers away from her tiny body rub andy ointment over harassed behind holter until the singing stopped until the crying stopped hold her over his shoulder with his massive hand behind her fragile head then on his chest in his lap in his arms on his back both shoulders his hand on her shoulder as she scooted too fast away from him? who was this now descending the stairs this child he made and raised and loved God how he loved every single cell dividing the coarseness of her hair the deep deep vulnerable hollow in her neck the half moons beneath her nails those show how many boyfriends you're GONNA have watch out world and her tears when they began to fade? Does that mean no one's ever going to love me daddy his baby girl was coming down those stairs and he was crying now outright and silently and no one had told him to do what to do with his hands as he slid them into his pockets. Irish shot him a look he pull them out again quickly wiped at his eyes class behind him against the wall arms raised fingers laced on top of his head. Her arms folded. What was the right thing how come he never knew the right thing to do? Thank you the Yankee so you have an incredible career as long career writing a literature for young people. I don't know if everybody knows but Jacqueline is the national ambassador for Young People's literature sure I think you're ten years coming to close on that you you also won the National Book Award for Young People's literature for Brown Girl Dreaming Your Memoir and a but your last book another Brooklyn and this one are written for adults so first of what made you want to make that shift so actually between another Brooklyn and read at the bone I wrote a middle grade carbon me and a picture book the day you began Dan this woman so I feel like I wanted to. I like all the world's like I like writing for young people writing picture books because as feels like I'm writing poetry. I like writing Middle Gray because I like the Voice of ten eleven twelve year olds and I like the gays that adult literature allows me the way I can kind of stand back and look at it from all these different perspectives and also the way I can play. Hey what time and the way I can move characters along the age brackets with a middle grade fiction and with picture books the characters. I tend to stay at one age of the person telling the story is ten or eleven with adult books like with another Brooklyn. The main character August list is in her thirties but she's talking about a time when she was fifteen but as an adult perspective because she's in her thirties so I just like all the world's well I think I see connection between Brown girl dreaming and these books for adults and other Brooklyn and and read at the bone. They're all stories about young girls from Brooklyn and you of course were young girl from yourself. Why do you keep returning to that territory? What are you mining in the the place and those kinds of girls? The thing about Brooklyn is you can read about it forever and it's never gonna be the same place. It's constantly changing so if I'm writing about the Brooklyn of the seventies is different than the Brooklyn of the eighties which is different than the Brooklyn of the ninety s and now I'm looking at someplace like what I write about Bush Bush Waken another Brooklyn. I wrote that book because I wanted to explore the Columbus of the neighborhood right here was this neighborhood that have been when I was growing up in black people and white people moving away so as a neighborhood of white flight and then as I at this point in time it's now the hipster neighborhood and white folks moving back into it and so I'm writing about the same space but it's very different and and that's what's interesting to me about New York in general and Brooklyn in particular that you can write about a specific place at a specific time and then write about it again ten years. There's later and be a completely different place and the people in it or different so when you look at Sylvia Angela G. G. in August and another Brooklyn. They're very different than melody in red at the bone even though they're all black girls growing up in Brooklyn so so I can explore all of these different identities and know something deep about them and then have all this information that not have all this information and know like nothing at all about some parts of their lives well. There's really two young girls in this book because we know we meet melody at the same age that we really meet her mother. The first time her mother's fifteen when she becomes pregnant with Melody Against Her parents wishes she decides to keep the baby and everything reverberates at from that from that point it really and we see how that affects everybody in the family and we learned so much about them going back in their history and then moving forward and into the present and why did you want to begin with that a fifteen year old girl getting pregnant and making the decisions she made to keep the baby. Maybe so it's interesting it. Actually I feel like an read the bone begins with the Tulsa race massacre so so and then and then the beginning is melodies coming of age ceremony this moment of arrival of having arrived somewhere and within that moment it begins in the middle of it so I don't started melody was coming down the stairs. I started but that afternoon there was an orchestra playing playing because I'm very intentional about showing the reader that we are step. I'm dropping you into the middle of someone's life right and I think that's the case for. We're we're in the middle of irises life when she gets pregnant. You know we're in the middle of Aubrey's life when he realizes that his girlfriend is pregnant and so I think all it starts at so many different places and you know I have to say hesitated to use that word begin. I think about that because it's but it is the event that we move out with. It's like a spoke that we move out from or something and then that impacts everybody in that book yeah and I just I while I love IRA so much but also I think a lot of times when people think of young people getting pregnant they see it as an ending and I I don't in that case I wanted to show Oh. This was the beginning of something else right so I was wants this baby but then once she becomes a mother she finds that perhaps it's it's more than she really took one to take on and the and the so the raising of this child really falls on the Father Aubrey and her and her parents as well but again this is not a depiction that you often see you don't see depiction of a black man as the caretaker so often and as you as you you know centers. I don't think white folk see it a lot. I think come I think it exists and I think that the narrative is that black men don't take care of their picket and they do and so I read at the bone again. I was very intentional about showing yeah. This is someone who one of many many many any black men who do take care of their children because I think the American narrative is a different story and often ally when it comes to a lot of stuff about black folks but black fatherhood in in particular well. I think you're right about that and I think that's why it's important to write that kind of character yeah and so you did do it very intently that reason and also because I wanted I feel like speak truth to power feel like it's important. It's a family saga right and I wanted to show all the characters and all their roles I I I really wanted to paint a full picture of Aubrey and show that he was a loving fabulous dad that he was a loving man and he was a hardworking man and that for him fatherhood and family was enough to be able to provide for them. It wasn't enough for Irish by for Aubrey he was he was happy you know he was he was he was a good guy and he was happy and he was a great father. Yeah you use you called ended a family saga and that's how I have described it to a lot of people. It's a family saga but I think when people hear the word that phrase they think of a big and this is not not. It's a very slender book really but that's because of the way use language at this barrenness of your language you cut so close to your bureau your poet. Your pros is so much poetry do you do you think do you think is a poet as you're writing. Everything I write. I read out loud so it has look a certain way on the page and sound a certain way before I move on and so I'm rewriting a lot and I'm honing the language a lot and I'm getting rid of a lot of adjectives to get to the essence of the story and so yeah I do. I would say that that's kind of the poetic side of my brain and it's also what I want. There's an urgency. Let's see to it right. There's an urgency to their lives that a lot of adjectives would get in the way of their yeah and I was just amazed at how much you were able to get into this story with this spare language. There's a lot of history here as you mentioned the Tulsa massacre of nineteen twenty one which I did not know very much it yeah. I'd probably knew nothing about a lot of people don't I think that's an important point. I think a lot okay. Raise your hand. If you knew about the Tulsa Race Massacre Speaker raise your hand if you did not y'all know some of you ally okay okay. But how much did you know anyone. It's you work this history into this into this book into this family saga. Tell us a little bit for those of us who don't know very much about it. Tell us about it and and how would fit into this story so Saeby who is the grandmother who helped raise melody the sixteen year old comes from a a family that whose wealth was destroyed by the Tulsa race massacre which happened in Nineteen Twenty one where white folks basically came along and and destroyed this wealthy black community and they bombed it they dropped bombs. They showed up people they set houses on fire and the black businesses they burn them down and basically ran the black folks out of town and I don't know why we don't learn about this in our history classes but it was one of the many times where black wealth are that aspirational wealth was cut off at the knee and and so he comes from her her mother almost got killed and the Tulsa race massacre and she carries that history and that story into the next generation and also she and her husband create a really kind of an upper class life for themselves when they get to Brooklyn Mhm yes and maintaining that is very important her so when her fifteen year old daughter gets and that's the most beautiful writing on her fifteen year old daughter gets pregnant and unmarried she is not happy. It was not the plan no. She's not happy at all and she stunned because has she had a narrative right she had she had a plan for who her daughter was going to become and what was going to happen and here is her daughter saying I'm GonNa keep this baby and also they were Catholic. You know they were like so many layers to it and and I think there is where there I'm talking about motherhood. I mean I think we have these plans for our children and I always think of the sweet honey in the route song they come. Your children are not your children. They come through you but they are not uh of you know they are with you belong to you and I think that's salt so true especially in that c irises like this is me and this is my baby be and you can't take it away from me and save is like what do we do with this yeah but then I is already said she goes off to college and moves the baby behind it goes off to have a life. She wants to like a lot of people would say that's a really selfish choice. What do you think I went and listened to a lot of people ah one at one point in the book? She says I was only fifteen. I wasn't even anybody yet and I think that a sixteen year old knows everything they want and very little about what they want and then they eventually discover it at sixteen. She's still red at the bone. She's still discovering who she is and and her desires are changing and I have a deep respect for that I have a deep respect for young people and the way you know eventually angelique their frontal lobes connect but you know while that process is going on. They're changing their becoming. They're they're figuring out everything about who they are and so that's who I was and and I think every teenager is selfish. We're all selfish is teenagers so it made sense to me and I think the narrative about Al Motherhood is that a mother has to be a certain way and that's not I don't believe I think there are all kinds of ways to be a mother and I think in terms of melody in the in she she had an amazing life you know she had amazing caregivers and she had people who loved her and that's what matters shed the data just adores her as you enter a grandparent and her grandparents both but I mean as you said he's he's willing to. He doesn't care about success and and there's a a lot here also care about certain I mean he's a successful. Dad knows how successful he's a successful mailroom worker occur right and he's a successful family man so he doesn't he doesn't care about the same things iris cares about and that that's the point that they grow apart which makes sense because is there fifteen when this starts and they're sixteen when they become parents which is kind of mind blowing to me but I guess not to mind blowing because I wrote the book so there's a lot here about class to which is another thing that I think you know white. America America probably doesn't know very much about either which is the differences in class within the black community and that's another thing that you really explore here that I think is interesting thing yeah yeah. Why do you think White America doesn't know about? I don't live with black people white people we it is interesting. It is so interesting because I wonder if if I don't know how white folks E. Y. fields but I wonder do they just see us. All Paul is one is black folks like depends on where they live. Honestly I think it depends on where they would have yeah. I don't know I say that because I I I live in Washington tonight you know I think that a lot of people want depending on where even live in Washington maybe more aware of the of the class differences but again I'm asking you. Did you consciously right about that because of the fact that people don't think about that about white people don't think about that okay now. I don't think about white people when I'm writing. I really am writing for myself and I'm not thinking about the white gays. I think that's a really clear point of my writing is that I am writing because I love I love black people. I really really love my people and and that's not super super pro black which doesn't mean I'm anti white but I and and and I believe that our stories matter and so I grew up in a history and a world where my stories weren't there and and my my desires desires to put those stories there so the story of the class divide within the black community is a story is a story that black folks. No you know so so in the conversation precision we're having with each other about this that white folks are invited to the Party of and and is a conversation sation that is that the black community is familiar with everything from I mean even Sabia was so funny because I was talking to a reporter today from Austin and as she was asking me about Sabeel he's talking about the goals that hidden away she's like. Is that a thing and like it's fiction here and I can't speak for the whole thing. It's not a thing in my house but but you know for my character. CBS thing it was it was so interesting and I think that when when I was writing when I was creating it create a conflict in the economic lasting created conflict and I'm also trying to talk about generational well and why black folks so often don't have it and it's not because we haven't tried to pull ls self up by the bootstraps when someone comes along and drops a bomb on your boots you have no bootstraps anymore to pull yourself up by and I think that's that's that's and so I'm having this conversation and validating it for the people who are getting victimized and having and feeling pulling lesser than and in the same way that Aubrey comes from this phenomenal working class poor family and and he's brilliant I think that's another are we see again and again and Media Myth about poor black people that they are not bright and so for me. Yes I'm intentionally finally putting on the page because I've seen this again and again I grew up in Bushwick the old Bushwick and you throw a stone you hit ten Jacqueline Watson's right and I'm the lucky one who was able to write the books and get published and get the award but I'm not exceptional and I think the world will want to look at certain people they say well. You're exceptional as a means of saying they're not and I don't I don't ascribe to that so in creating read at the bone and in talking about economic class I really wanted to be really clear about who these people were and why they mattered I was reading in his book around the time that Tony Morrison died and and I I was asked to speak about it you know for NPR certain points. I was reading about her and one of the things I came across was first of all that. She said that she had to start writing because she didn't see the books that she wanted to go to read out there so she had to write them herself and then I also read that some critics at the time that when she was starting to write K. as said there's no way people in your books and I was so struck by that because I see right now so many great black writers writing about black life Colson Whitehead Jasmine Doors Turn Asi Terry Jones. I mean all these people and I thought is that her legacy is is that partially partially maybe not only only Tony Morrison but James Baldwin Yeah Yeah. I definitely feel like I'm here because Tony Morrison was here. You're because James Baldwin was here because Audrey Lord was here. There's so many black writers and writers of Color in general so that came before for me that kind of Said Oh you can this is okay. Go tell that story you know whether I met them or not Alice Walker and and so yeah I think that's what legacy is right. Someone comes along and knocks down one door and then you're able to walk through that one and get to the next one but she definitely he began helped other writers inside the publishing world's to tell their stories you said earlier I love Iris so much watch character virus. What what is it you love about Iras? I love that she she is not thinking about how the World Caesar she's making her own choices and she's kind of forging ahead no matter what and I think that that that I want I would love some of that imme- in this way so so you you you create the world on paper that you want to see out in the world and I feel like in creating Iris I put every kind of thing that I would love Jacqueline Woodson to be and accept a fifteen year old mom aw sixty year old mom but I just loved her fire. Are you the kind of I mean. I've talked to a lot of writers now my over my career and everybody has a different approach to writing. It seems to me but are you the kind of writer who you set out you know what each character's going going to be. Did you have in mind what these characters were going to be or two characters reveal themselves to you. I mean I I hear both from writers and I was wondering did you. Did you have these family. I figured out in stone to begin with her. I know is a good question I didn't I had I had an idea of what the story was trying to say and I had an idea of who melody and Iris were and then as I wrote and rewrote and rewrote like Aubrey was on the page I couldn't figure out Cathy Marie for the longest time like what her role was in the story. I knew poboy was kind of off but I didn't know what was going to happen. I probably wrote this book about Thirty Times like it was a lot of rewriting reading it out loud and trying to figure out the timing timing and the way the characters kind of moved around each other and one certain plot points happened but then it it wasn't till I went and wrote that last seen that I came back that I kind of realized what I was really trying to wear. I was trying to go with this book and and then a lot more rewriting as you about that last thing but I as I was coming to the end of the book as I said it's it's a small slender book and I was lying it and then I was thinking I really Kinda. Don't want this to end then. I don't know how she's going to be able to end this. You know so. I'm going to be satisfied because it was a few pages of what you know. You get a few pages where you think this is going to end. I'm not quite ready for that and then I have to tell you guys nails the ending absolutely nail L. The ending. I was like Oh my God. I can't believe she did that. How did you do that? I knew Ooh if I wrote one other word after that last word it will be because I was being self conscious about the writing and so I just knew I walked away way there it is there it is the ending has literally revealed itself to me and I knew that I had to go back and figure out other stuff in other parts of the book but I knew that's where it needed to end and when you're writing your all and I'm sure the writers in the audience can speak to this when you're you're all PENSA AH pent-up frustrated and you're not sure what's happening and then when you get to that point where you exhale and you feel some kind kind of way 'cause that book is an emotional journey for me. I mean I would sit there crying as I'm writing parts of it are laughing because I thought parts of funny and then I read them to my kids. They'd like that's not funny but it was definitely like this throughout and when I got to that ending seriously excelling I am trying to imagine what that's like for ready to just suddenly to be writing and then I mean. Did you know you were going. Is that that you did you know that's where you were going. We we're ending. None of you know trying to say she got to a good place. I I felt really good about it and it was a very different feeling than when I ended Brown girl dreaming for into this because that book I I was a mess after that I I thought it was done but for the longest time I was like this book is a mess. No one's ever going to read it. Why am I writing it and you know my partner? Juliette was just like keep writing. You're going to be fine and I finished finished writing at my. I'm not fine like as no one's ever going to read this and and so when I got to the ending of read the bone was such a different feeling like I felt very insure that nothing I wanna ask you about. I've talked about this once before when I interviewed music plays a big role in your writing and I think that's part it of your writing has a lot of musicality to it as well as being poetic and yet your prose writer but an implies a pretty funny role in this book opens up with this print song at this kind of coming out party and I had to look up the song but the lyrics which are not played mother won't let them and can you explain it. It's so just feed it real okay okay. This is the opening of the book empty six thousand dollars for these leaders. I'm still AH point to Prince. I'd be really happy but it ain't is but that afternoon there was an orchestra playing playing music filling the brownstone black fingers pulling violin bows and strumming cello dark lips around horns a small brown girl with pink. The Pale pink nails on flute Malcolm's younger brother has dark skin glistening blowing somberly into her Monica abroad shoulder woman on Harp from from my place on the stairs I could see through the windows curious white people stopping in front of the building to listen and as I descended the music reuss softer the lyrics inside my head it becoming a whisper I knew a girl named Nicky. I guess you could say she was a sex fame. No vocalist the little girl didn't know the words the broad brad shoulder woman having once belted them out loud while showering was now saved and refused to remember them Iris wouldn't allow them to be sung and Malcolm's brother Sweet seven-year-old mouth was full still they moved through my head as though Prince himself were beside me met her in a hotel lobby masturbating with a magazine that's great I just love juxtaposition of this officer playing and that's the song they're play and we did last night. Before Lhasa Event went tells you Regan at Joe's pub and we had an we had a three piece ensemble two violins and a cello and her guitar and we played that song but I mean there's music in your head as you're all the time I limited. I started writing. I put my earphones on and keep the same playlist a list for years sometimes adding songs but that that's the way I race the world I put my music on the world has gone. I'm in the world of my candidate has some influence on the away right it does it does everything from Eric Garner from Yeah Garner Billie holiday. Ah Wu Tang prints all the music in that book is music. I added to my playlist to kind of not only hear here's music but to get the rhythm for the book when you look at another Brooklyn I was listening to a lot of jazz because I was trying to get to the jazzy rhythm for the telling of the story and this was because it spans nineteen twenty two two thousand I had a whole long or playlists Janine. I dream of Lilac time like most of the songs in that book I listen. I listen to get to that place. I want to leave some time for people to ask questions but I had one other question for you about being the ambassador for children's literature which is i. I gather. You're not sorry to you. I just wonder what you've I know you've probably been a lot of traveling with that memory amount of young people and what is your take corrals and there's so my platform my models Reading Eagles Hope Times change and I was going around the country the groups I chose chose to talk to a title one schools people in title one schools juvenile detention centers and I had hope to visit them in all fifty states and and I what I learned was how many juvenile detention centers exist in each state so it's impossible it was impossible for one person and there's a lot of need and there are a lot of young people who are so deeply hungry for literature and there are a lot of book desert's across this country and I wonder if that's by accident or design and that the next ambassador the next person who comes along or people have have their work cut out for them but I think it's GonNa be an easy journey because we're GONNA make some changes but it but it's amazing work and there are a lot of readers and there a Lotta kids with a lot of stories great. Thank you thank you Lyn so I want to open the Florida questions. We have microphones at the end of each aisle. There's there's an microphone right here and there's one over here K. shy people so if you don't ask me the question here you cannot ask me while I'm signing your book. I know how ED goes I got the book out of the library a couple of days ago so I started reading it yesterday. Evening I finished when I was sitting here. It had me in tears at the end but I also have to say also read the acknowledgement which are also ended beautifully thing and it was like another my heart and really if I hadn't been sitting here I would have burst into tears with beautiful thank you thanks for reading it. Thanks for getting it out of your library too. I mean I love independent bookstores and I love libraries. I was shocked. I got it so quickly. Thank thank you go ahead sir. My question is one you hear a lot here. book talks and partly because I I tend to ask that's the question read the bone and movies. Do you expect one. Are you already committed to who I asked this anytime I hear a good saga mmediately and especially if it's red in the language makes me see images MHM Ruben obvious question or my going to see these images on the emergence right yeah yeah. I don't know it's it's funny because movies in books are so different like the writing and creating is very visual experience for me. I can definitely see the characters moving along the throughout the story but I don't think about film I mean my my film. Agent thinks about film and I let her do that but I don't actively try to get something on the screen because for me so deeply satisfying to do the book have you had anything made into a film. miracles boys was made into many series and I actually writing behind you into a series which I never expect all the bucks I had never thought that was the book that would become. I'm a series but but I think I think that's it. I might be missing something a lot of writers who disappointed of course when their books are turned into Yeah Yeah Yeah I would join that they invaded. We got another question here. We got somebody who thank thank you. I'm always curious to know whenever there's an author. I love what they're reading and so what are you excited about reading in terms of whether writers of color or what's Switzerland Earth we're brief on earth where briefly gorgeous blew me away. China huskies new book the Water Dancer. I talk about exhaling because he wrote he's. He writes non fiction and he he's a friend so it was like Oh please let this book be good. Please be good and it is phenomenal. I just started an patches the Dutch house which is really great. I'm usually reading more than one book at a time. and I can't remember what else I'm reading. I think I'm rereading the Black Panther comics just like so thank you thank you great. Go ahead. I external from your work. Entitle one schools I'm interested to know how many people of Color Actually interview you and what your experiences also with interacting with a queer people in the literary community in what their reactions have been to the spaces that you're in how much you like or dislike the people who you interact with thank you know like just kind of how many queer people of Color do you actually interact within the literary scene and how has that impacted what you write and how you feel in your career steps. That's a great question. You know it's so funny I think about all the fluid people I know without going like this I I I think that our world my world. My world is mostly clear because I'm queer so but in terms of like who interviewed views me I I get a lot of interviews by black. Women not always clear women and some women I'm trying to I think I just I don't know it's so funny because it's just for me it just kind of ebbs and flows in terms of WHO's asking me what but I don't know it's such a good question in terms of interacting with queer writers there are lots of us and we're a small group you know we we tend to gravitate toward each other. I feel like back in the nineties. It would be when there was conferences like outright and places where where queer writers could gather and talk about stuff there was a lot more of that but as as the world changed we got kind of got separated from each other and so so it's kind of like you know when I'm sitting talking ocean or something it feels like home man in a very different way but I keep my circle I keep my people close and that's some of them are writers. A lot of them are artists. Many of them are queer and that's because when I go out into the world so often that's not the world I go out into An. It's important for me to hold home close. Thank you excellent so I'm reading. I'm almost done with last summer with Mazel and the two best friends I've read Bronco Dreaming Sometime before that end it somewhere in between you talked about your friend. a few doors down down from you. Maria Maria and how you guys were best friends. is that one's buyers you to make make last summer with Mazel. Definitely that's a great question yeah. Last mazing actually took place on the block. I grew up on Madison Street and Mazen. Isn't I feel like I'm both maze in a Margaret in this way but my friendship with Maria Maria who I'm still very good friends with was definitely inspired inspire that friendship the people in the neighborhood that I knew as a kid definitely inspired people like Miss Del and Margaret Mother so yeah. There's a lot of me in that book and I think that's because it was my first novel so it was I was writing what I do and of course Brown girl dreaming a memoir so that's a lot of me thank you. Thanks thanks so much right. You haven't read the book I grew up in Harlem on sugar. Hill had a lot of friends in Brooklyn. I WanNa ask you something about about the nature of black people who seek color is light like as Langston Hughes who says there's a kind of category for all of us that we have in ourselves. Have you written about that talked talked about it or been asked about it. No because I don't care you know commentary. Oh No yeah no. It's not it's not something I feel like. When I'm sitting down to write I'm writing about? I'm writing from this place of love for my people and Nat of a place of you know I feel like of all the things I can critique in the community. That's not one I care enough about to go deep into and I live in. I have my family. If you saw my family it'd be like what else at such a family that spans so so many shades and so many ethnicities and so many languages that I never want anyone in the family to feel lesser than and so to even begin to write and have people call each other out around list just it. It feels so remedial to me in this way that I it. I'm not interested so I've never written about it. Thank you so you mentioned that you rewrote this particular book like thirty any time so this kind of a process question about but how long did it actually take you to write the book is one question and also you also said you read a lot of different books at one time in writing more than one piece at the same time. I'm usually working on two or three books at the same time and not necessarily in the same genre so so if I'm writing Middle Grade I'm also working on a picture book and maybe an adult book are right now working on an article for the New York Times and I'm working on the screenplay and I'm working on a middle grade book so and I and that's what slows me down but then when I'm really really into a book that's the only thing I can work on so it gets to the point where I have to just focus on that one and in terms of red at the bone I feel like it started in twenty fifteen and I I've always been interested in the Tulsa race massacre and and the the absence of it in a narrative as especially in our daily narratives and in our historical narratives so I knew I was going to write about that some way somehow and and also the the stereotypes around teenage pregnancy I that was on my brain and when I say right because I have questions not because I've answers and I get saying what if what if what if and what does this mean and also in terms going back to thinking about generational wealth and often often the lack thereof and black communities I really wanted to speak to that and understand that on a deeper level and that's when I started where read at the bone but it started headed in different stages and I always take notes and I'm writing down character sketches though it was going to be the same book as you'd like. You're just yes yeah. I do know that those going toward that book okay okay thank you hi. I'm middle school teacher and you we are are we are planning to use after two pock Andy Foster as well. It's Brown Gore dreaming this year and I just had a parent reach out to me last sweet that she would rather her son not read after to park and d foster because she was so fixated on the subplot with one of the girls is brother being on wrongfully imprisoned that her son could not relate to that and she didn't want him to read that book so I have drafted and redrafted my response and now I WANNA do a Jacqueline Woodson unit mm-hmm so she was upset about the brother being in prison not that the brother was queer and imprison and she didn't mention that issue any concern concern about the brother being queer just that she didn't want her son Ring Reading about gangs and imprisonment gangs and that I know so I was wondering like did we even read the same book Donovan read the Books and you have to have parents read the books that we plan to use classroom so I still haven't replied to that email now and I guess but really my question is you know. I think it's so important for us to bring lots of different books into the classroom for the kids kids especially for the kids who have are used to reading books about themselves right are used to see themselves. Don't even realize that and I guess I should expect that there's going to be who you know this pushback and so I was just wondering if you had any advice or words of encouragement aw or will you just come to our school if you've noticed but she does speak her mind talk about stir from the letter A. so I am. I'm stumbling but I thank you know of course if a MOM's if the kid knows his mom saying don't read that book he's already finished it so you're reading it as a class read so we're gonNA offer that as an option along with ghost as goes it's fabulous as well as mocking bird so they'll have four choices mocking Kathryn Erskine. Oh I don't and then ghost and then the skin I'm in and then after after two pocket foster and so the idea the focus of the unit is on identity. Also we want the students writing a narrative and using the book the Reading For inspiration looking at the author's writing style and so that's you know that I love that you're giving them so many options options and I think that's really important. I don't even don't even respond. He doesn't have to read it. You know what's GonNa Happen is hopefully it will ris goes which is phenomenal right and and then they'll the kids will be talking about it and loving it and he'll wanna read it so you putting into his hands. That's a so much of that happens by word of mouth south from people their own age so I wouldn't even respond to her. Just keep on moving like there's so many times in this world we just have to push pass and keep on moving. Thank you thank you made me think of something because we're heading into banned book week. which and have you had any any uh-huh? Oh my goodness am I not I. I was talking about this and that New York Times piece I remember Judy blume calling me up and saying she's doing this anthology. Call the places that I've never meant to be about people whose work has been challenge that I'm like well. My work hasn't been challenged. He's like Oh yes. It has and a Lotta times when you're work. It's challenge. You don't even know right because it's not like they're calling you up saying saying you know I'm taking your book out of my classroom. I don't want my my my son or daughter reading your book so she of course other people know more than you do about it and so oh yeah my work has been challenged but you don't respond mean we don't know about it is really but have you ever had some people know about it. I remember when scholastic was first publishing glistening from the notebooks of Melanin which was their first queer book ever and excuse me I didn't interview in out magazine and they talked about that. Book was published yet that this was a book Scholastic Publishing and I got all these letters from six graders somewhere in Washington instate like handwritten letters where the teacher had an assignment to write to say why this book shouldn't be published and it was like we don't want Jacqueline Woodson an African American woman into publish to write a book about a lesbian mother and her aunt and there were so many misspell words and African American was miss a literally it was about thirty letters I went through each one and corrected all bent them right back so bad toys went through with a purple ten Red Ten and I just return them to them but that was when I was in my twenties now I just ignore it but then then the other questions we have time for one more question or if everybody is ready we can move to the signing. I really am. I'm not answering them. While I'm signing so serious I couldn't resist I was struck by are you saying that you wanted to write about the Tulsa Mexico because it was something that we didn't now I really start by so many African American writers of fiction. I I think fiction tells the truth that nonfiction Kant and journalism doesn't want to address and I'm wondering what you think about the kind of fiction that's being written. Particularly by writers of Color Start just was sitting there thinking about well. Jerry Jones American marriage about you know incarcerated conservation article operates about white supremacy even the hate you give you know they. All books looks like I thrust upon people because I wanNA say no. You have to read this because maybe then this will be your entry way into trying to find out about these other things I'm wondering what sort of books you've been start by. Clearly your book you want to you want people to know about wheel things right fiction. I'm wondering other books ah when I think of something like Jesmyn Ward Sing unburied sing and of course Dr Is Book and Donna Donna Hoskins and Colson and I think what strikes me about them is they're speaking truth and they're also telling amazing stories so they're really beautifully written there. There's there's there is an entry way that makes it easier on the heart right it to be able to fall in love with these characters and cared deeply for them and want to see the world changed because of that and so I think that reading bills empathy it builds understanding as Dr Ruth Dean Sims Bishop Talks about in keeping with the need to cite black women Amen 'cause we often don't get site it just have our quotes thrown around the world and not get credit for them but in keeping with that she talked about the importance of young people having mirrors and windows so MIRA so that they see reflections of themselves and windows so that they see in two other possibilities and other world and other narratives and I think that what good fiction does is it really does. Give us a window into those world. It makes the lives of those people all and makes us understand them on a deeper level and Esso bills empathy so I think the lesson I learned from writing for kids is that you can't be didactic. Nick that the minute you're didactics. Someone's going to start reading your book especially young people they right because they want to hear a good story they don't right because they want to learn they re textbooks to learn and and so and I and I bring that to the adult writing like their things I wanNA say questions. I WANNA ask their conversations. I WanNa have on the page and I I don't want it to feel like I'm trying to teach somebody something because I I'm not I'm writing to learn myself so and I feel like like sing unburied sing. Even I'm from the water dancer. I just felt like I learned so much about the

Brooklyn Jacqueline Woodson writer Aubrey Aubrey Brown Gore New York Times Washington National Book Award Tulsa New York. Andy Foster Iris Lynn neary Melody Colson Whitehead Jasmine Tony Morrison Coretta Scott King Hugger Hyder
Jaclyn Hill Cosmetics Debacle Explained |EP#32

Paging The Simpsons

55:05 min | 1 year ago

Jaclyn Hill Cosmetics Debacle Explained |EP#32

"What, what, what? What's going on? Capi pride a happy Friday. Feeling great to be. So you tell great. It's a Friday. I'm feeling the mood. I'm in the zone. I'm focused all let's go. So what's going on everyone? I'm shell. Cosa paging, the Simpsons, I'm joined by my lovely fiance's here. Learn who's inspecting an old lipstick, and we had to postpone our Friday episode. That was going to be going up today and push for next Friday that episode caveats quick heads up. There is called. Would you be successful? If you went to college, or is it necessary to be successful wants college? Something along those lines. And we talk about our sides because we come from two different sides of, I guess, you could say necessary to go to college to be successful. Yeah. So that's, that's coming up next Friday, since we had to push us to talk about this interesting, you can call it. So I'm going to have you get into this because I'm not familiar of. Title. We're talking Jacqueline hill and her whole out of which dirty as nasty as lipstick. I want you to get into it till I wonder what's going on. Tell me what's going on. I, I need information. Okay. So let's go back in time. So I have been a big Jacqueline hill fan for I don't know, five six years somewhere around there, since she was, you know, smaller on the tube and. It's been an interesting journey so she was so weird just been an interesting dislike. It's like old friendship, where it's like we had open downs, you know, getting like like like you so closely this girl. Okay. You know, her now you just call up on the phone. Anyways, let me tell my story, so. As a backstory. She's had multiple collapse with other brands. So she's, she had her highlight, champagne pob come out with Becca. And then she had the collab- with Becca after that, that had the champagne pop highlight, and other highlights and blush is in a pallet. That's one that I have. And then in that launch there was a five, I think, pan I shadow palate, five or six and that flopped because that was inconsistent and they eventually just pulled it all together. So that was like the beginning of it, and then she started become big and more fee and morpheus a drugstore line while bekker's more of a mid price point line. Like if you go an Ulta it's on the right and said the left. But with more fee, she had her initial palette come out with, like, I don't know how many I is a big shadow pal it, and that has rave reviews. So that was fine. And then she came out with the vault collection, I wanna say this was last year with more fee and that was like, four different shadow pellets, that I think, have ten shadows, and each, you can tell I don't own any of these except the except the highlight pellet. That had a lot of controversy around, too, because that was like patchy and not pigmented and having all sorts of application issues in that batch. And then what had happened was. They pulled those and seemingly were able to produce a lot within like a few week, timeframe and ship them all out again, which in manufacturing timelines standards that wasn't adding up to a lot of people who actually worked by the scenes. So that was interesting. And you know, she's done the whole video of, you know, the poor me, and this is what's happened and sorry. But this is what happened and I'm going to say this gonna blame. This is a lot of detours tries to take. So what you're saying is that this, she said, multiple times before, the like whole thing where things have happened. Right. And then she puts out a video saying man this happen guys. Sorry, this happened. We're gonna fix it this. Right. And what's very interesting is all these times before have been collapsed with other brands, so she could easily blame the brands and stuff there and it's just very interesting because she would always say how involved she is. And she hands selected this and was in the lab for this. But then at the same time when something would go wrong. It would be like all I wasn't really that involved or I didn't know about this, or like this was out of my hands. I only chose this, not this and. It is very interesting. So there's been you know, she's had a couple on cher's that's were seemingly fine. But then a couple launches that were complete blow ups. And so people were they didn't know what to expect from her own brand. Then we go back to her brand, she has seemingly been establishing her brand since two thousand fourteen so five years. And it's very interesting because there's all sorts of theories as to why it took this long, one of them being she did divorced, her ex husband last year. And I think it was the beginning of twenty eight teen and. People are saying, like she didn't want to do it before the divorce. Because then it's more proceeds towards him which I guess, makes sense. So she saw coming to like pause it. Because then okay, well, I'm trying to not get ahead myself. I'm trying to do this in logical. Order as possible. No, I guess that makes sense. So she came out with twenty lipsticks. Okay. We're now we're talking about today, may, thirtieth thirty first she announced and released twenty lips lipsticks and it's interesting and again with the time line thing, it's Jacqueline hill cosmetics, but it's also Jacqueline cosmetics and we're all, like, you know, that mean with the lady, and the math is adding up, and we're all like what's going on here because there's a j h on the lipstick to and Jacqueline hill cosmetics, I think, is the social media handles, but then she Mark, she branded her packaging, like the boxes which is Jacqueline. And she's says, Jacqueline cosmetics and leg naturally. It makes sense if she just wants to Jacqueline cosmetics but the bigger issue here is now that is one of the many reasons people think that these. Sticks are old is because the component has j h on it. Now is a possible that they use like old casings or whatever you call those, I don't know. Well, I don't know. That's a good question. It just seems weird because now she's trying to branded Jacqueline cosmetics Marcel. So, so that's one of the reasons. Okay. So. Now, we dive into she releases them. What was very interesting from the get-go is she did not send PR packages out ahead of time. Like you normally do Jeffrey store people like that would get these all the big influencers, and they would get it a few days before so that they can put a lot of people do so you get your review up before consumers can buy video game. No, they do. They do this with cosmetics where it's the hopes that influencers get positive reviews up before the product comes out to boost sales, and, you know, it's very interesting because she didn't do this. Nobody purposely didn't because her her saying was she don't wanna sway, the opinions of, of people buying it. I thought it was very interesting, though, because anyone would do you already sort of have some doubt that something was going to go wrong because I mean, this is your first launch. This is this is like big for you. This is massive. And like it would be a big thing, then them out ahead doesn't make any sense because if it's your first launch, you want the students super, well, no, you have good products. Yeah. You've Senate outs everyone knows so they can get a review out there and sells like so that it's very interesting because then you have people who some people didn't know if they were on PR lists. And so they bought the twenty pack when it came out, and then a few days later received a PR kit as well. And this is where it gets interesting. Well, because I guess they don't notify you. I guess if it's the first time, and they just said, I, I don't know how PR works. I don't know. But, but. So she sold them in different packs. Okay. She had her individual ones. She had her three pack ones. I think four variations of those, and then she had the twenty pack, which is all of them price points were awful. They're eighteen dollars per lipstick. I think you saved some with the trio and you saved even more with the with the twenty pack it was like two ninety five for the twenty pack which sounds like a lot of money. But if you divvy it out compared to what you pay for, like a MAC lipstick or something like that. It's comparable. So people can't really say anything about that because it's not actually a bad price if the product's good. Okay. We'll we'll go. How long do lipstick typically like last anywhere from, like one to three years of the date twenty but if I don't? Okay knows, call it crazy to I'm paying three hundred dollars for a twenty one one there's people who authentically do wear a lot of lipstick. There's people who apply reapply lipstick a lot throughout the day to there's makeup enthusiasts who just really love to collect stuff and three. There's makeup artists who would be using a lot of different shades. So there's a lot of different reasons you would get twenty lip six that's not that's not up normal true. I'm thinking, like the random girl at our house. It's like I'm going to drop two hundred dollars on a twenty pack, and I don't really real lipstick much. The entire I'm gonna pick a collector, I'm going to hold you that she's gonna wear one and the rest are gonna stand mold away, whatever there's literally people who do stuff like that. They buy stuff and do not touch it boy collect it. What is it because it's you know, you aware you care sold us on a yo. He go. I don't know. That's not what I do. But I know that, that's a thing. So. All right. So this is where it got interesting. So there were two people who put out videos, share Exo, believe was the first one, I want to get this, right. Shakes, oh was the first one that I saw on that kind of blew up and then, like the day after was rob beauty Christie. Shea is a bit smaller, but she's not small by any means. She has like a few hundred thousand subscribers Robbie Christie. I think has a million or something like that. So they have some influence. So what happened was shake? So had bought the twenty pack and she originally was going to make the video just doing lips watches, like was just going into this as a normal video, and then it took a turn. What hold up? I'm kind of curious on this. So she so she opens like the package up. First time opening it up just doing a review and then what she looks at the lipstick and realizes this like on camera. Yes, e oh, that is why. Dell's. Both looking at it and feeling it because here's so here are the main claims that are happening with a lot of the lipsticks. They are melting, and or breaking. So they'll not even by twisting up all the way because everybody knows not to twist their lipstick up all the way. Okay. Like. Doughnuts twist me, my iota up all s clearly you're keep your letting that out so that it could easily break, who does. But that's what I'm saying. So you know, to just do it a reasonable amount. So. Right. So they're breaking I guess they're like bending and then breaking not even like at the base. Sometimes it's where it so there's that there is complete of grittiness like feeling like its gritty when you're applying, which are also little, like, beads that people are seeing in there. There's holes like literal holes through the lipstick. There's markings like on like this part of the lipstick. There's like a weird like dark Mark, which is definitely not good. There's what else am? I missing. There's like weird. Lines like after the first swatch of the first time you apply. There's like lines that go across the top of the lipstick. And, and the fuzz can't forget, the fuzz, there's like little hairs or fuzzy fuzzies that are coming out of the top, or they are embedded into the lipstick. That's very important to remember here because people are trying to claim, it's from gloves that we, you know, touch, but how would a fuzz or hair get embedded into the lipstick which it would have to be there before it's solid. You know what I'm saying? So when it's like wet and then form you know what I'm saying? So these are all the complaints that people are generally saying, and then there are the there are some who are saying they're having absolutely no issues. But I'll get to that later. So now sh- Exo. She goes on. And she starts putting him on her lips. And she starts realizing the grittiness, and she looks at the lines and she does all this stuff, and she proceeds. This girl. She proceeds to try all of them on, even though she's having issues. Oh my God. Okay. So we so this would not more the whole thing came out type things she was doing this. This is like a week ago. So this is when it really starts six days ago. This was really when it started to blow up because we all right? We're on June thirteenth soul week ago. Was like seventh issue these came out like a week before that. So they were starting to get to people. And then this. Oh, it's also worth noting that people are having issues, conveniently with the expedited shipping, so people would pay like a big amount of money for expedited shipping, and it would get their slower than the people who paid for normal shipping slept. Another weird thing that's happening on related to the actual physical lipstick. But yeah. So then yes, so she goes on to do all this, and she's basically just saying there's no way she can condone. Saying this is okay. And then she more. So during the video goes to defend a girl who got backlash from Jacqueline. And I, I don't think I can find the tweet right now off hand because I think Jacqueline deleted it. Honestly. But. She the girl was basically saying, oh, what are these weird things on my lipstick? Let me like look really fast. Thanks. It's not the fuzz hold on. I wanna I wanna see from like coating soup scoop on put onto a microscope thing. So, so that was put it under a microscope and it like the lipstick look crazy. And like it looked like a moldy like our again in there. Oh, we are we're going down the we're going down that way. Yeah. I really think she deleted it because she. Yeah. She came back with like somewhere to policy, but she did she deleted it. The girl was saying, like, oh, what is this? I live second, so disappointed. Like I just wanted to she was generally just like asking what's going on? And she wasn't being mean like the girl was like I just wanna know what's up with the lipstick and Jacqueline came back snappy in the tweet and was like so a couple of days ago you were basically saying how excited you were for the lipsticks. And now you now all of a sudden, something's wrong or like some and she would say, how. She's like, well, first of all the lipstick is clearly used. It's not fresh from the from the factory and shea and metoo. We're just like, of course it's used when you get the lipstick what you're gonna use it. So then and she's just trying to say all this, this, and the other thing, but she was very snappy in the tweet, and I can't quote it directly because I can't find it but go to a drama, Trento the hub everything. But. Yes. So then chez was basically sticking up for this girl, like, in the video to saying, how that was completely uncalled for an unprofessional, and that now you. It's interesting because now Jacqueline is always you are a business owner when you have a big YouTube channel like collapse and all that stuff, but you have to now, she has to shift into thinking while like she's a brand owner now like she has to actually hand with just so I could be happy about products coming out. And then once I finally, get product and I don't know what's happening. It's not what I expect, and I I'm not being mean, but I'm trying to ask, like, what's going on early innocent about it. And but in the there was backlash because then when Jacqueline tweeted that, of course, the stands went after this girl for no freakin reason. So then that was the thing is she saying this is awful. You need to, you know, issue an actual apology for that. Like, don't like you need to actually own up to that. So that was part of what she was saying in her video too. So then what happened? Was rob. You Christie was the next day. She is the one that started with the microscope. Okay. So she's the one that I, I was sending you pictures that had like amazing pictures, like, really good picture quality and she went in. So let me tell you. Exile shea and or shea sorry, rob, you Christie. Both did like fifty minute videos. These were in depth. Do these craters forty minute videos for any type of issue like this one? I know. Right. So she, like she wasn't going to try on her lips. I or maybe should try to couple man. I watched a few days ago, but she basically was like, he, I don't feel comfortable like doing this because hers, she's the one. Now, this is where it gets important. She ordered the twenty pack and then got the PR package, and she was comparing them. And for some reason, overall, the PR seemed a little bit better than the product that would be sold. But at the same time, I will say they still were having issues. So the PR was not would good way. Anyway. So and looked at this and like these ones, look that a better than what we're we currently have. Right. So we're going to some ease out so he slept people, and it's smart that these after video game companies do also where they like they tendencies people like after before like pretty much like the view can't go out until after the release date. Normally if it's a bad game, you know, it's gonna come like a day after the game came out or a few days after just so they can like get those initial sales before any bad of us come out knowing that they know the games bad. So it sounds like it's the same case with this. Yeah, it's very interesting. But. What else? So then she does some swatches, she shows close up. She takes pictures. She's the one that has the picture, that's circulating around where people keep putting faces on the little lipstick that has the hairs Po-Chun out at the top, that's her picture. And. Then she ended up like the second half of the video going in with the microscope and. That's that was grow because it looked when I saw the pictures look like it was like moldy, but again, our it's normal. I'm not sure she compared to like other ones. He's dead. So they don't have to a normal lipstick from another brand. And when you put the nice lipstick under the microscope, it's like completely perfect and smooth nothing's wrong with it. And then you put these under the microscope, and there's all sorts of lumps and bumps and colors and holes in a hairs. And here's the thing to people are not just finding like a random fuzz, they're finding like a hair that ends up being like this long, like they end up polling and pulling and pulling and it's still coming out. And I'm like the heck is that my thing is because we watch video of Jack that she put out this morning, and that's more later in the story. Law drama jump ahead here. So lot and. It doesn't make sense to me. 'cause I'm like, isn't there testing happens beforehand like she kept pushing this onto like mass production saying, oh, whatever we were ready for mass production. Listen that I'm like, don't you test this, like multiple times? You make sure the produce good you like I'm not sure if this costs her to run tests, or whatever the case is with it, but that's part of owning a brand what testing whatever she has to do. That's part of. Why don't you money? People's how will this Costa money, because supposedly she is refunding people, their money back and giving them another? Yeah. But it's like you should. But it's like do I really want that box? I don't even want to put this. I'd be like I just want the money back, you know, and not for nothing. I, I wasn't terribly interested in even buying this from the get just because one. Yeah. I mean, she's had a kind of shifty past, and I, I don't know. And to there's tons of lipsticks out there, there's some of their all there are ones that are creamy nice feeling and long lasting and, and shiny and whatever they are like sure they're pretty and whatever, but I can me being me me being a fair skinned person. I can easily find a new that works for me like a million of them. So I personally would not have a problem finding a nude in a drugstore wherever I go. So I don't know. I I wasn't interested. So I'm like, Whoo. Miss the boat there. But okay, I have plenty of tweets. So I'm going to reference. Marlena Stelle, again, I talked about her briefly, when we were talking about the whole James Charles drama a few weeks ago. She is the owner of makeup, Keith. And she, she had a YouTube channel that she started. She's one of the Gs from years ago. And she is a successful business owner brand owner, all that good stuff. Her brand is now in target like she's cool. She has some really good stuff. That's really great prices and still has great quality. And so she has a lot of experience, actually, in mass production in the lab like actually doing this stuff, professionally with her own brand, not collapse. So there's tons of things. That she's. That she said and I'm trying to find the ones that are gonna mean the most for what we're talking about it this moment because. Yeah, it's been a long this has been going on for like a week guys. So it's been a lot to take in and every day, there's more like tweets and controversy and all this stuff. Which is actually interesting Marlena. I'm very excited about it. She's coming out, think it's November of this year on Netflix with a documentary like behind the scenes on like what actually happens and stuff like she unvarying excited. Yeah. I'm very excited to see see that. Let's see. But it's. Sorry, she like has a lot of tweets. I mean, essentially from what you told me earlier shoes like she because she's done this before. So she's sitting there like saying, this isn't normal, like, no, you explain this, where it's like what she's saying, isn't Kratz like the Marlena, whoever she was, like, this proving one, like, for example, this one's like from a day ago, 'cause I'm having trouble finding the older ones that I'm thinking of, but she said for all of us who are now inspecting, all our lipsticks. We owned things to consider lipsticks expire anywhere from one to three years. Fiber lint are not alarming, if that's the only sign of quote unquote defect. Live six sweating or oil-stained, showing also, not alarming small holes, not alarming blackspots, black hairs. Longhairs embedded inside alarming. Fibers growing out of the lipstick with a combination of any blackspots remarks alarming. So she's actually, like, being honest about what to look for. If now you're looking in your lipstick collection like I did for like, what do I actually have to throw out and also throw in here that whenever year makeup has a change in smell that usually also means that it's expired, what changes smell? Yes. What is smoke it just changes? And sometimes it could be foul, but sometimes it's just a change, because, like, lipsticks, lipsticks that smell sweet, for example, and if a few years from, now, it just doesn't, or it starts to smell kind of sours something it's time to get rid of it, just like foundation. Anything liquidity can start smell different. And you just know if you use it regularly, you know, it's going to smell different interesting. So. Her and Kevin James Bennett, whose award winning makeup artist and he also works behind the scenes, a lot in mass production labs all that stuff, and he is not afraid to call out influencers at all ever. Who I also referenced in last the last James, Charles bit. Him in Marleen kind of go hand-in-hand with shedding light on what's really happening here. First of all. Fuzzy gloves in mass production, apparently is not a thing, period. They're basically saying this never happens. We never see it. It's always like latex or latex free rubber gloves, just regular gloves. You know, I love how in the video she posted which by the way. Video should have been posted days ago days ago. She's talking about how she needs time to regroup and all this stuff. But I'll get to why that's a bigger problem. You sit back she's trying to blame the holding on glows. But if you like, what have you ever gone to a store in a box of gloves, or whatever and has fuzz on it? I'm not doubting exist. I'm more so doubting their capacity. True almost like I have never got gloves and been like this, maybe you something maybe they'd grill or something. But I'm saying the likelihood of this seems weird. So. The glove thing they're kind of debunking because also not for nothing. She talks about how oh because we don't want to get our fingerprints on it or something like that one, they're basically saying you would never touch the actual lipstick once it's in the tube and to. Police and all that use like the regular gloves on crime scenes because they don't want their fingerprints to get on stuff. That's all you need if that's what you're worried about these white gloves are not necessarily that you're claiming. There's literally a petition going around. Like shoulder. She made these or something. Yeah. And then there's also there's various people who are also like in the Kevin James Bennett like world. Who are saying, for example, if you have not used your Jacqueline hill up sticks to consider contact. And Diane Wilson of ABC eleven she did a story of years back that exposed Justice brands, which was used to be limited to in the mall, if you didn't know that as having sold makeup with a specis and she won an EMMY for it. She's willing to do a story using unused Jacqueline hill of six and getting them tested. And so all this is kind of blowing up, and then he's also he's also debunking. Just different stuff. Hold on this Salat shoot things with that share where one thing in her, like apology video, whatever that video was. I was like I was watching, and she's explaining whatever she's explaining in we're all regular people for the most part, we don't know what the facility looks like what this looks like I'm like, it'd be nice to have some video of what you're explaining other than like these documents that you're showing on scowling which the documents, by the way, a lot of people were saying, I didn't notice this morning, if the video was clear. But like when people were trying to watch it last night, apparently, the video quality was like three sixty p or something like that. And they're like, oh, conveniently can't read the documents chose to because I mean depends on when they watched it could have been still trying. And secondly. Yeah, we could push things. Diane personnel ABC, but how much is Jacqueline gonna let them into the warehouse like you can do all investigation you want, but you're not gonna be able to come into wherever I want you to come into unless I want you to, I mean. Okay. Earlier in the week, Kevin had come up with a theory that maybe the component was the issue more. So for the melting factors, there's different components that you can use for lipsticks. There's like a thinner one. And then she has a thicker one. And so his conspiracies were that Jacqueline cosmetics Ardy the custom component manufacturer didn't match a suitable formula to this type of lipstick case and should have used a slimline, which is the, the slimmer case conspiracy to was stability testing was not done accurately, or for a long enough period of time spiracy three, the lipstick sat in a warehouse for too long expired, compromising the formula. So they begun to break down. And he said, you know, they should not be melting or crumbling. Somebody's address, what's happening, honestly. Then a few days later. He's basically saying these lips are contaminated post a possible health hazard are not safe to use. There's no way to sugarcoat or shape, this narrative, unidentified and unidentifiable debris, hair mold spores. They're clearly contaminated, and they allegedly all come from the same batch. This was what I was going to mention now earlier the in the podcast I was saying how. It could be the component or something like that. And. The problem. People are having is every single thing. Oh, no. This is what it relates to some people are having lipsticks that are supposedly fine that are perfect, and have no issues. The problem here is every single lipstick that has gone out, supposedly has the same batch code which means these are all from the same exact batch, which means if your lipstick seemingly is okay, it's still might not be, and you still might be posing a health hazard to yourself. So just to kind of keep that in mind. So. He's come out with truths. Marlene has come out with troops, follow them on Twitter and Instagram. If you wanna see all that in depth because they are constantly posting about this, and they I trust them completely because they have been in this world for years. And, you know, I think part of it, too, she may have been in this world like dipping her toes in, but she was collapsing with other brands, she's never done it, in a scale like this, where she's completely responsible and has complete control in her own brand. You know what I'm saying? So I feel like maybe there were a lot of big ABC's here. But I think this went too far at the end of the day because now what's been happening is people are showing us pictures while some of them are fake, and I think that hurts everybody by doing that because people are taking fake images from Google and pretending it's their lips. And that's awful for the people who actually experience it. There's been countless tweets and pictures of people saying, you know. After I put this on my lip swelled. I gotta rash. I got a reaction. I got a cold sore. I have to be on antibody. I'm in hives, like there's a person's arm even they just watched it on their arm. And they said, they're not a particularly sensitive person and it's just read high and like they, they had to be on antibiotics and I'm like this. This is where it went too far. I mean if you come out with a brand, and you have a couple little things that are kind of weird or not, exactly right. Say like your shades are kind of a little wonky, or, you know, the component is not the strongest or something like that. Cool. We get your kind of adjusting, but one, you claim you are five years on this to get it. Perfect. And now it's the complete opposite. And to this is not a little oopsy. This is causing actual health hazards to people at the end of the day. This needs to be completely recalled everything needs to be destroyed refunded, and move on. I don't mean to be at all Puerto means like a slightly. Don't believe these people, and if I do follow suit, if they really about it. And that's the interesting part is. Shake. So we go back to her because if real quick 'cause this thing when you said someone like did swatch video, Mike, I wouldn't even I wouldn't put this on my body at all. Like I don't even wanna breathe it to be completely honest. If something has mold like that. I don't wanna breathe it in. I've worked so hard to try and get my asthma under control and everything. I wouldn't even wanna breathe it like I literally wouldn't want it around me. I don't get it. I don't get it. I can't I find her like I really, I'm so curious to know about the whole like testing phase, like what happened there, because I feel like this would have been like a lot of people are saying, there was no quality control, and that's the problem like, do a mass like tests, or check, check the, if this the first batch, check the batches, like check a few of these box before they go out like I don't and sound like in the video. She said like they were she was rushed. I think like you said she like they made like a little bit before. Well, that's the next thing is that they're disapproving. There's no way they can make like half a million or whatever of these things in under a month. Oh, yeah. True. That's a lot. So her even claiming that as oh, and let's talk about the video to how the little document that shows that they were like done was April of twenty seventeen but let's just ignore that Yuxi that you're claiming these are brand stinking nil, but they're already over two years old indicating they're like. Next question is, is this just going to be like a little blimp on, on lake I guess the Jacqueline hill brand? That's what's really annoying. Some people are saying this going to destroy her forever. And some people are, you know, optimistic whatever I don't think it's going to destroy her forever. It never does a lot of things. Don't destroy people. These yeah. And that's the thing is a lot of people bounced back and a lot of people believe everybody's excuses and still continue and continue to support these people, no matter what they do wrong like these stands. It's like these people are human, but they do nothing wrong in your eyes. And it's like I don't get that. I've not I've never been that way towards a person whether like it's a big pop star or movie. Actor whatever, like we're all people at the end of the day, and we could be awful for some of, you know. Personal never mammals to is like, I'm like this person doesn't affect my life, literally whatsoever. Until I mean, it's a health hazard, but, you know, that's besides the point. This is really annoying stuff is not loading. Alice Twitter's list, probably down. I know I saw what Instagram was down drugs, China L. Oh, but I do have this screen shot saved. September. Twenty fourth two thousand seventeen Jacqueline tweeted. All right. Thirty minutes before I land QNA time S Manny thing, someone said, will your brands still be launching this year. She said, fifty fifty it's not about me at this point. My lips are at the lab and ready to go. There is a lot that goes into starting a brand September. Twenty fourth two thousand seventeen. In the lap ready to go. Okay. Just say. There's all this evidence, pointing to these are at least two years old. I don't think they're five years old. But there are at least two years old somewhere like two to three. Maybe you know. Shea was saying how because people were like coming at her for some reason, but. She said listen, I've said several times. Now, if you had an actually physical reaction by all means you have every right to pursue this legally. I didn't so I just wanna refund. I'm in no way, telling anyone how to handle their situation, she's basically and her and other people are saying they're like you literally could pursue this legally. If you've had an actual physical, we action. And I think they should I if you've gone to the hospital, some people are saying they've gone to the ER and all this, like, I am paying that Bill. Because that's going to be hefty. You know how the are is. So I. This lifts six should not be doing that to you. Sure. At the end of the day, there's freak reactions, there's people who are really really, really sensitive, but these people usually know that laid find out there like they know what they're allergic, or sensitive to, like, for example, like, I always ask when I'm doing makeup on people. You know, do you have any sensitivities allergies? Double check for latex because there's latex in eyelash glue. And a lot of times they don't realize that they should tell me latex. So I want to think about the right. So I double check. And then I always have latex free glue on me. There's like one person the other day they said they were allergic to coconut, and that is something that I actually have to know because there are products that have coconut oil or coconut extract in it. So these are those things that, like, if you have a reaction, you would know already, and you would avoid it. So this overall that it's happening to so many people is not normal quick to go topic there. That's kind of interesting that you say that because I'm like, if they go to cheaper makeup artists. I like what happens if they don't, if not ready for that they don't know? They're like, oh, no. That's the just pushed off say. Oh, no. This doesn't have it. That's more. I mean, that's you know that's not my business though. You know, we, we just wanna go twenty five dollar makeup artists, but out, I'll leave that be. I literally I literally had to tell someone yesterday. She was a client on a couple years ago, and she had on her Instagram stories that she needs a makeup artist. But like a budget friendly makeup artist for wedding season 'cause she just had a baby and all this stuff, and I was messaging her. And I'm like, hey, like, I don't know what you mean by, like budget friendly, though. Ha and all that edge. She literally said thirty dollars, she's like I know you wouldn't do it for thirty. So that's why I didn't ask you and I literally told her, I'm like, okay, so I'm tying this, because I care about you just be careful going to someone who's gonna turn thirty dollars because one it just may not look how you want, but to they may not be sanitary straight up like I worry about, I'm, I'm huge on Santa's Asian in my kit, and everything. So this whole thing got me grossed out. I mean. I'm trying to think if there's anything I was leaving out. Let me look at my notes real quick. Everything I don't know. lipstick a couple little things. Just little details along the way that have popped up over the last week. I mostly went in order tried. Patrick star who is a big influence her as well. Surprisingly came out on his Instagram stories, and like was honest about it, and was, like this ain't right, like do not use these like that whole thing which was surprising because a lot of a lot of the big ones are saying hush hush about this. You know they're not they're not getting it all. So I thought that was interesting. I'm like, okay. Good. Be the bigger person. Another thing that was interesting is on the back of the box and the component, or on the back of the box of a morphine product. And then her stuff has the same address, but I don't think this is, as weird as people are making out to be I don't think it's the facts. That morpheus distributing or making the stuff they may just use the same warehouse, like, but then people are like, oh, she still associating herself with morphine all this stuff. And maybe that's why. And let's this one people are dead. Now I mean, they have a right to because this, this whole thing was gross up. But if you really really what? Oh and another thing. So another thing shades said in her video, there's this whole thing she has shade called bad ass. K. Which now is one word and the S's are dollar signs though. You're gonna say Z's now. Oh, no. The dollar signs tacky enough. This lipstick and multiple people have seen this. This lipstick is the only one that doesn't have a sticker on the bottom, and on her Instagram. She says, I think she says bad ass. Let me see if I'm getting this, right? Bad ass. Just one word, but normal with with the normal S's, but then in her video when she had her launch she's talking about. She has this whole weird story about how she used to say bad ass. And she said it this way in two words and. It's this whole weird thing if you want more detail, Shays video she explains a better, but it's kind of weird, how this was like one that changed so many times or something. And now is not like why would the sick or not be there on the final product and the box. Only says bad ass with the regular S's and like it's a whole it's weird. It's weird and multiple people have noticed that. Like, why is this shade like the one that's different and not complete? I mean, if you're launching something it's going to be complete. I just don't get it. I have to, I really hope I find this really quickly. There. People have been re tweeting. She had done Instagram stories swatting all the lipsticks, on her lips to like show, you real watches jerk Liu. Yeah. Before they came out like a few days before. And okay, I literally will have to play this on the podcast. There's this shade called as if that she is watching, and you have to listen closely and I'll help you out here in a second. New, let's to as if because this is equally as nude, but is a gosh. What is on? There is a size, my personal collection. I'm using right now a pink microphone enough. Let me try again. Sorry guys, I don't usually do this. New af let's to as if because this is equally as nude, but is a gosh. What is on? There is a size, my personal collection. I'm using right now a. The second time I didn't know what you were talking about one. I'm like, okay. Oh my gosh. What is on there? And we can't really see. But that's kind of interesting. And she and she tries to say it like, oh this sorry, this is my personal collection. Okay. But I find it very I didn't catch that when I first because I watched this whole, I watched this whole Instagram story when it first came out, because I wanted to see the swatches, and of course, no one's thinking anything of it at that point. And now you just look back and you're like. Oh, oh. So she, so she saw like that, and maybe to her. She was like, oh, this is normal or something. I don't get. It makes sense to me. I don't get what's happening. Women are crazy spending for twenty dollars or sorry. Twenty pieces of lipstick for three hundred dollars. It's really not. It's not a bad three hundred to me and make me have a great life. That's all I want. This just whole thing. What? Oh. Now, she quote in her video said, every ingredient in the lipstick is new. One of the drama channels tweeted, oh, new hair love that for us. For us what as like a joke like great. Thanks for like the for the hair on. I love how in the video she talks about how every ingredient is FDA approved. That's great. But once you put them all together, something got something wrong. That's what matters here. It doesn't matter that every individual ingredient is approved like this whole thing you're like you look like you're out. You're like you're done with this topic. Sick eighteen dollars for one lipstick go. But when I'm telling you coming from my world, that's pretty average. That's not average for like a mid range price. I mean drugstores, like ten and under mid ranges around there to like thirty and then uppers like above that code lips. I'll go on Kenny, that's going to die. My Lipson color. Exactly. Samaritan along. They put it on a little bit. Let us guys for the people that are watching the YouTube video, so I went, and I looked at my old, lipsticks because there are some that are like years old, that I really need to get rid of, and I found not a whole my Maybelline lipsticks, like as a whole and need to get rid of their just kind of funky. Right now, this lipstick has like these weird growths on it like little bumps. I'll have to go up to the up to thing to show. Good luck with this one. Luck with this one here. Yeah. They could probably see that. Yeah. Yeah. Focused. Yet. If you're listening to audio version, check the podcast on the video version of the podcast, you'll be able to see what she showing here, which shows like our lipsticks old that looks similar to what Jacqueline hill has happening with hers, and I'll tell you that this lipstick I it doesn't even look as bad as what's going on with hers, and it doesn't look moldy doesn't have like black spots like they are sweating, some which is like not a good thing. And then they have like those weird bumps. But I'll tell you I have some lipsticks that are a couple years old, at least and they're still kicking perfectly fine. So the fact that something has gone so terribly wrong here, and there, supposedly brand new, that things adding up to happen is this needs to be recalled. Refunded destroyed, and that's it. I stand by that. This is a health hazard. It's disgusting. It's embarrassing. Like I get that it's embarrassing for her own up to it at the end of the day. Again, you are a big brand owner. Now you got a lot of big girl things to do. And this is one of them. You can't just make video excusing everything, and claiming that everything's perfect when clearly why would so many people lie about this? You know what I'm saying? It's not like one or two people are like trying to blow up something. No. This is a big issue. So just do it. I mean, like literally someone was tweeting earlier, how she has an autoimmune disease cancer is going through chemo and something else right now. And she's literally like she said, she's so happy that, when her package arrived, she wasn't home, because she's literally terrified even be near it like she is so immuno compromised. That that's terrifying. That sad for a lipstick. So do like you do with food and cars and all that stuff. Recall it. That's it. I'm done. I've been done. A lot of people been done now, this is a lot, this last straw, for a lot of people, and I don't blame them. This kind of is for me to like, I'm that's what you didn't buy you. We'll see how this plays everything. I mean. Yeah. Plus I just really wasn't interested like that from the get like I just was like, also, it's really realistic. So. When do you really wear loops there? I know I want to get back into it. I was thinking about today with new, lipsticks 'cause I clearly need some new ones. But yeah. Did you see the the thing? I sent you know, I do not. Oh, it's so funny. I'll try to play it on the, on the Mike. Plato and Mike, the correct way. Okay, let's do that. I think I sent it to text. Coming up on this hour. Okay. Thanks rocko us. Oh, yeah. You Nord it, what the heck it says, when. Thanks, it says, when she asks, you for a kiss, but she's wearing Jacqueline hill. Lipstick. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, that would totally be you. You'd be like getaway for me right now. If I didn't know what it was. But in general, I just don't kiss me because I don't want that general you not lips person personally. What what swayed till that wedding, the free one day would want you to kiss them on the list? What you lipsticks could have some friggin where you just sit on the wedding day. While on the wedding dates of them the wedding. Like. Are want you reading gives me all my days talking from red lips walking around. Like that guy got some red Lipson, so cute sexy. But. I think it's time to the point it's a long when we give you guys an hour talking about well, come Jacqueline tobacco here. Guys, let's hope it's almost over. I don't know we'll see. We'll see if we have an update for you Tuesday or something, because I'm sure over the next few days, more stuff will happen to be determined. On that note, you down a rep it up, or I guess as always, you know what it is. I should know coast page in the Simpsons. I'm joined by my lovely fiance, the severely annoyed and disgusted Lauren. Make sure to check us out on social media. Graham Twitter Pinterest, Email of paging the Simpsons g mail dot com. If you wanna be included in the podcast, any question goes, remedial, links in the description, so questions anytime you want us to talk about any relationship, vice you wanna give that's happening in the social media, Email link all that stuff in the description of this podcast and YouTube video. You're watching it there. And for that it is a rap, and we'll see you guys next Tuesday piece.

Jacqueline Jacqueline hill YouTube Shea Instagram Robbie Christie Kevin James Bennett Jacqueline cosmetics Jacqueline cosmetics Marcel business owner Ulta Becca bekker Mike Jacqueline cosmetics Ardy Netflix Marlena Stelle autoimmune disease ABC
Introducing Rotten Tomatoes is Wrong (A Podcast From Rotten Tomatoes)

Rotten Tomatoes is Wrong (A Podcast from Rotten Tomatoes)

01:59 min | Last month

Introducing Rotten Tomatoes is Wrong (A Podcast From Rotten Tomatoes)

"Welcome one and all to the rotten tomatoes is wrong show podcast by rotten tomatoes because the score is just the start of the conversation, we're diving deep and settling the score on the fresh movies. You hate the rotten movies you love and everything in between I'm Mark Ellis a comedian and a rotten tomatoes correspondent. I'm Jacqueline Kelly editor rotten tomatoes where I cover awards and independent film each week we're going to dive deep into one movie or TV show that. You think the critic Scott, wrong like one of my all time favorite movies Constantine is currently rated forty six percent rotten on the tomato meter. Meanwhile, Kingdom of Crystal Skull is a certified fresh masterpiece and I have to wonder if any of those people are actually watching that movie, we're GonNa have guests like our friends, critics, filmmakers, you do not want to miss out. It's a virtual party in your eardrums. Here's a little snippet of a fun we've already had. A get an overwhelming feeling of joy watching. Spiderman. Three with this movie is a horrible dumpster fire of trash Jacqueline you hurt my soul Sunday is not Asia of movie I go to blockbuster video and it's like you want to rent an action movie or Sundance movie modern campaigning is like war what Adam Sandler did that screwed him with Academy voters when he came out and said if y'all don't nominate me I'm GonNa make a bunch of bad movies just to spite you when she hits that never. Felt that on the back of my spine or excited to have you with us, and we want to invite you to join us in the party. So if there's a movie or TV show that you want us to cover where you think perhaps rotten tomatoes is wrong. Let us know by emailing US AT RT is wrong at rotten tomatoes dot com you can find us wherever you enjoy your podcast. Listen to us when you're at the gym when you're in the bathroom, we don't care get in on the conversation subscribe each weeks. You can be a part of the discussion Jacqueline I'm looking forward to doing a deep dive with a lot of these works cannot dive with mark. We're going diving.

Jacqueline Kelly Adam Sandler Mark Ellis Crystal Skull editor Constantine Scott Asia forty six percent
SheroesUnlimited Behind The Book Series #02 | Jacqueline Kent With Jaynie Morris

BoomerBabesLife Podcast - The Wrap

32:36 min | 5 d ago

SheroesUnlimited Behind The Book Series #02 | Jacqueline Kent With Jaynie Morris

"Welcome back to another episode of Shears. Unlimited behind the book on Johnny Mars Founder and Chief Experience Officer. been a bags life global community for women fifty and onto to have your company back once again, thank you so much by the way everyone we're getting lots of messages, lots of emails, lots, attacks saying that you're loving these in-depth behind the bulk. Interviews that we're doing with these amazing offers each and every one of them an amazing woman I've a fifty that has created an absolute gift in their rising and today's absolutely no exception. Now, if you have already got your latest issue that tribe twenty, twenty issue of Bouma Babes Life magazine, you would have read the fabulous interview there I achieve editor-in-chief Estra dads this we the the amazing Jacqueline, and the interview was all about her book. Mida. Now. This is what we're GONNA be talking about today. It's my absolute pleasure and honor to introduce you to Jacqueline Jecklin is an Australian all. She's a journalist biographer nonfiction writer. I must say Let's clarify that as well. She lives in beautiful Sydney that is enjoying some amazing spring weather right now she's an incredibly accomplished woman. We have very very on it to have her with us today. Jacqueline welcome to share his unlimited behind the book. Thanks Jamie. Great to have you here. Now before we get into this incredible book that you've written, I do want to just. Ask you a quick a few quick personal questions. Now, my research shows me that you were born in Sydney. A jude decide to move over to light South Australia for a period of time. Now wouldn't you say? Well, it's not my decision I. Think I was about eleven. And my father came my family came over my father got a job every lay with poked products of listened memory. Minis go and so we stayed here and I went to Saint. School school and I went to university in at leg which a hugely enjoyed. But then I wanted to be I wanted to be a journalist and greener pastures big city. So we move on the back to Sydney when I was about nineteen of nineteen twenty and kind of been here ever since a love red. Lake. A few times. That's. Well that one in in that case, we forgive you it because your whole career took off wanting last. Set you up for it. This see John and I have enormously on members particularly of University University. University of Adelaide. which was and is a review university. So yeah. So when you when you went back to Sydney then and you got into what was then to become your career which was writing and journalism. Where did you first start out in back in Sydney Jacqueline I started out as a typist with a brand new will to OCSTA-. Agree I started out as a typist at a TV magazine Coltie be. Times. And I stayed de Forbid got a cadet ship. After. A while and then I became. An accredited journalist and then I thought. So on the into ABC radio and became a radio producer Leslie for the children's to comment. In radio, and then after a few years, you know Itchy fate did the London thing went overseas and worked and stopped, and it was all terribly Ra- magic magic as it usually is if you've never actually tried it. So I did that for a while and then I can back to Sydney. And I started work as a book in Asia, which is, which is what I've been doing most of the time. Really. And and then I started writing and. That been kind of going in tandem there's not much bill journalism, but only bits and pieces that's mostly being Getting and and writing ratty books really that's been I should have been doing for the last on our loan. Quite a while. We with your with your beginnings in an as an actual offer than than focusing all of your energies into that. Now you didn't start out in nonfiction. Did you you actually started out in fiction? How did that come about? What was the inspiration for that? Started off with writing because I was radio. I, stock because I'd been working in radio. Did a book which was a history. Of Strategy and radio, which is bad. Ole Names the people of the fifties and sixties new in in. In radio and then I did a book about childhood. Then I did some young adult fiction. But since nineteen Scott timmins since the late nineties anyway I've been concentrating on biography and this invited is my fourth fish I think. Major. biography. Let's let's talk about fighter. I've I you and I had a bit of a chat before we started our interview today and. I'm going to repeat what I said to you. Is that first of all congratulations and thank you for washing this book. And for our audience, if you haven't already got your copy of bodyguards who at website shop section, you can order these copy straightaway and once you've listened to what Jacqueline's about society you about this I know you're going to want to get the race number one reason I want to thank you for writing. This is because I'm I'm only halfway through. And it's going to be the first book could've been asked to review in Rate Old Weizer? Because they the story behind the woman. Is One of the most POW. Folks stories that I've read. INVA-. Oh sorry the fact that her story, which is so much about empowering and standing up for an and elevating women in society. Is still not where it should be a hundred years lighter. Corrected in in in that. Assessment of what you've written. It's one of the things that I've found really surprising when I started research because the Goldstein was the first woman to put a hand up to stand to federal parliament. In Victoria for the Senate in Nineteen, hundred three, which the I it was the first election that women were able to vice for this time they're able to vote. And she wasn't the only woman who stood I. Think there were three others about she was the most she's the first one. So she gets to get to the Moon Z's i. what really surprised me was this that women got the vote in one, thousand, nine, hundred, two, they were able to Repot. Election Nineteen, hundred and three. The first woman in Australian Federal Parliament did not actually take seats for forty years. That is what really surprised me because even though the US and the UK will match later in giving women what women citizens, the votes, they didn't do it till about Nineteen Nineteen nineteen twenty they had women in Congress and British Parliament within five years. It took US forty years and I was interested to know one. That's one of the themes of the book why it just took us so long for women to take their place in parliament and. All the things that drive from that. So yeah. So as well as telling the story, Vita who by the way made five attempts to get into parliament and didn't make it. Any time. she re gosh she really tried but she didn't make the last two times however, she was during World War One. When? Wasn't, and she would on a pacifist platform. So everybody. Was Mad Kane on the war except for up to surprising that she didn't make those last two times. But. She really really tried and she the interesting thing is that the the Obstacles she had to confront. Hadn't changed an awful lot in one hundred ten is when between her really Ian Junior Gilan. And Exactly that was one of the things that I was going to ask you when you. You've actually written toured biographies with Julia, Gillard in my correct. Yes one's one's a one's a biography of her life up to becoming prime minister and the second one is about her time as prime minister. Yes that's rush. When you when you were doing your research to end rising. This book. With. Former Vita, did you find the conversations that you had with Julia because to me what Julia Gillard winter in her political career as our rates for this book this in the drew the drew a lot of parallels sean long all the way back. Did you find that you were able to pull from that into what you would setting up with this book? Pretty much it was. It was I have to tell you that quite a lot of the time I was researching and writing this book I was in a state low level fury because it just seemed so. Awful that nothing had changed that they was still misogyny there was still. Writing articles about women and telling talking about what they believed or what they said but what they were wearing and the historic thought. To that and The things that they did the thing that really struck me to was. Vita was terrified that her opponents will not always been some women as well. And that's gallons experiences. Well, most most of her opponents would would set rats or mice onto plateau platform issue is speaking. And you can just imagine long skirts and would not have been pretty awful for that to happen. And Yep Ditch the witch plaque ads that Gillard had no people standing in front of placards. It's a very, very similar. Months. Really. And it's interesting with that point that you bring up there in regards to even even some women along the path again during back to Julia as Julia Gillard as well. It's it's not always well primarily when you read these stories and we as women actually know and we we need to more knowledge this as well that with all due respect to God is they do continue this behavior. We've we've with women and however women themselves quite often file to support and encourage and celebrate. The achievements of women and reading this book. I see that that that that was even occurring back name. Very much actually to be perfectly honest with you I. think that's a double edged sword because you have women who want support other women but then you have women who support other women. Regardless just because they are women and that is. To my mind, not awfully helpful either because what that is all you're saying that because she's a woman now you're saying because she something dumb a making you know you've got a there is a there is a bit of a balancing act going on here. I think a novel whistled so I may not some. Yet, missile misogyny will take you quite a long way, but it's not the whole story. Yeah ex exactly now, one of the things have violated did her career. As a politician as I women's at advocate for women was that she started a newspaper codes fear and found particularly interesting, and again I'm going to draw back on our. Interview Conversation. One of the things for us at imbed life the weakening taking opponents his of the book is Batch Sorry we. I just had a little glitch there in my tech Psalm. Sorry for the audience that wasn't yours that was made. One of what I was saying was one of the things. We have been beds. Life have actually taken from his story as well. Is that from this paper that she started codes? She was. Actually. It was called the Australian women's sphere. Was One of two. She started to actually one called woman voter which was a little later but yet she started to newspapers at. One of the things that you wrote about in the book was that she was very specific that in the content there was nothing there was none of the fashion and cooking and those sort of ideas it was all very educational into informational. Topical for Women In regards to community issues and that that's been a turning point for us. Bouma, begs live because of your book. So again, thank you for writing that. Had she she came up with a lot of -chools when she did that, have you how do you? How did you find when you were researching that? She stayed the course with all of that. I'm I have to say I found it extremely refreshing because in both those newspapers with started offer I'd bet. They both a aged marriage occasional as she saved. But what they aim was to was to teach women. What they've voted could mean and she was never somebody who saw. You know women's voting would necessarily make a huge difference to the body politic wanted the politics of the stranger her Ho position about women being given the vote and using that. Was Basically, it was a badge of citizenship. and women were equal citizens. Therefore, they should have equal voting rights that was the first thing and the second thing was that women needed to be in parliament wherever they could because men did not have a clue about things that women and children cared about and it was up to win again to educate them. So they would tell of the pillars of by size newspapers she it does sound rallied Grimmett Ernest. She actually, she had a couple of sort of short stories and short poems and bits and pieces, but it was primarily. But as you say, there were no recipes there. No hints for the busy housewife there was there was none of that stuff she bed she relented a little bit later but really None was that was never the purpose of it in fact it was it was like any magazine that's been published more like MS magazine I'm in early days in New York when. People including and some were involved with it yet. We now at one of the parts of the book is Specifically speaks to win she then win overseas and her role that she played on the world stage in regards. To being an advocate for women, can you tell us a little bit about that from the Book Oh? Yes. I. Was really pleased to discover that she was invited the beginning of nineteen hundred thirty. She was invited to go to America as a representative of Australia way women vote which what they said and she was known as Little Australia, which is quite sweet. and. She actually met presidency. It'll Roosevelt. Who Said Oh? Yes. Astray lovely uncut. You see because Ustralia at the time. Just at that cusp of the twentieth century was a place where great strides are being made about you know working named men's working conditions and. Wages at women, and there was a really great feeling that this was a new country. We could do what we wanted, and this was a really good thing and she went she's GonNa Krista that way went to went to America for five months. And talked to a large group of American women can back feeling really impressed about as you are when you go there about the Shia energy of the place and the sheer energy of the women who were there. And she came back feeling a bit. Come on, we WANNA, do the more. It really gave her a real shot in the arm. It really deed. That was the first one, and then later on, she went over to England in about ten years when I is later to support the suffragettes who actually there were actually basically urban guerrillas that suffragette stay you know was it was not sort of Linda's John's in. Mary poppins walking up and down and screaming bites the women they were actually. That destroyed property. Actually they were held in the prison that will force fade. And it was it was pretty tough. The police were pretty tough. On those women and and she was absolutely horrified and having been somebody who thought that. It was a rise in and get it energy. She realized the forces against. suffragettes in England and she became out cameras a very strong supported to the for them, and that's what she she remained up to world will one and then she stopped supporting them so much because Mrs tankers towards the later, the suffragettes and some of her friends decided bet that will guide to support the war efforts and cut down on the but for women campaigns, which didn't, which is outrageous because she was a pacifist, she couldn't see why there's two things. Could be worked on together why couldn't still be a pacifist and look for win and I think she was right actually but you know there was all that sort of. Patriotism, my Country Roger Rome which she forget the strength of when war. It is very path. What do you think then fine would think. Today, Jack Colon they. Way Way as women always have conversations about we need to step up. We Need Tech State at the title we need to be, and then you have on the same level, you have the compensations. And the articles being written about the fact that a number of women on boards dropped the number of women in senior positions and is most definitely in politics. knickknacks yet I can't remember what the figures of the something like thirty seven percents of the MP's in both houses. I. Think it's thirty seven a win in Australia, which is not fantastic. Considering that you know we hold up half the sky. But I. Really think that is that is really a problem for us. And I think partly it's because it's that whole thing about women can have it all. You can't bring up kids properly you can't have a fulltime job, but the most amazing thing would be and Anthony. Albanese you said it is very wake. At -solutely mandate matting childcare mandatory then would do so much for getting women into the workforce. It really would because women we will know withdrawn where women are torn between. And it's not just having to look out kid you don't miss out on them. You really done. Don't Amiss when they're interesting stages and doing things. And that child care thing which has never been mandated properly in this country it is in Scandinavia and look look what's happened to them. They fantastic. They've really got will and doing wonderful things. So that would be the first thing. And on the other hand, I'm just thinking the other day that. Ten or fifteen years ago. We didn't have a Malala and we didn't have Oh Great Burge you feel US young women standing up and saying what they believe education for young women and climate change and I been absolutely fearless and that is something that didn't exist before and I, think could subsequently terrific. It's so inspiring and I would go spot a say that I think that we women fifty. Signed. Many ear grandparents. Or maybe her grandchildren but have adopted grandchildren that you pinch from your friends. As well. I think that this. There's an element of many of us. Think it's too late for us to jury something. It's done what we've. We've what we may be meant to do. We wanted to do all the choices that we've made in our lives but now we're over fifty wherever sixty it's too late yet when we look at the greatest the world, we sit there all my Gosh Gaza. So inspiring yet we seuss it back. We don't step forward and I would I would go as far as saying that if it was vita, she would be taking a stick Ford even more would would you agree well up to a point? She was fifty five when she made her last attempt. To hang on we'll. She thinks about fifty five fifty when she made a last attempt to enter parliament which didn't succeed. And she thought. Look I've done this five times. And so she looked for another sphere she started writing about. Politics about world politics, and I didn't how badly who work was published but I read quite a lot of an and she was a very astute observer from international trains she among. Nas many people regarded world, war one, not war to end. All was the beginning of you not was going to continue, and then would be another within twenty years. She said wasn't she? Right and so she knew why that was she was an astute exhibit of. International trains. She was also and this I think is made her. Be. Mature changed. She was also member of the Christian, science? Church. Now, that was huge because she was a practitioner, and if you know anything about Christian Science, that's a pretty senior, pretty senior level. So what she did, she did a lot of what you could co pastoral work in Melvin, it's not public work. So it wasn't particularly noted when people. She died in nineteen, forty, nine at the age of Acey. During the thirties and forties. When Victoria had it centenary? She had a few things to say about about women and how things have she wrote articles thin she didn't give up she never gave up she she changed her field of operations, but she never gave up and honestly Oregon that if you've got the energy to keep going is always something you can do is always something you can do fees self three community, and even if nothing else, this is something that as a biographer of I've said, many times everybody ought to write a Niua at doesn't matter whether you think you or not. It doesn't matter because you keep ratting a memoir of your life. It to kids give it to grandkids. Give it to the grandkids you borrowed. Maybe I'm just do it because your experience is like nobody else's it may have a lot in come on the people's but it's unique and you really need to. Put Your stamp on the fact that you. Have done this and you've been around the water I think would would differently agree with it. I never said it but I'm sure she goes. There is grind advise because you right everybody has a story. Regarding has his. And actually. Once, he stopped writing things down and putting pen to pipe. You actually realized that's the truth. That's true. Indeed, do you know before I? Let you go I have to ask you jacqueline the In in in writing this book. What do you? What was your biggest takeaway? From her life I. Think I think as I've said before in fact, an epilogue actually kind of gives vent to vent I think is the would but basically, I'm how little? Things. In certain areas have changed for women Okay more aware. Now of domestic violence issues, we're more aware of education more aware of. Giving women, more opportunities, but in certain areas like company running companies or running a political party or anything like that. We've got a long way to go. And that really. Anew that but I mean knowing it and saying it to different things but I think yeah, I, think that was the major takeaway. What some? One question that I always ask all vast special guest and I'm going to ask you. You're not escaping it. Jacqueline is if you had an eight year old Jacqueline in front of you right now. What advice would you give her? I would say. Cape going because when I was eight year old Jacqueline I was determined. I was going to be Russia. And I would just say, Cape going forget all that adolescent nonsense daren't spend your time worrying about this falling in love with unsuitable people doing all those things Cape writing and you will get there. That's what I wish I had said to myself when I was ice. Well. You've certainly made up for it. Your your catalog is growing all the time. So what what's next few jacqueline what what what what if you? Looking at a few a few things but nothing's jumped nothing is really kind of jumped out but that's okay. It will That's one of the things you learn in this in this game sort of you know you comfortable us it something will happen right and then you'll nar but also at the moment. Doing a bit of publicity about Vitus I'm still kind of invited slice the moment it'll be a little while before I escape for that I. Think but something will turn was does. While we're very much looking forward to say Moore does tend up next for you jacqueline in the main time vita a woman frat time. It's an incredibly powerful in sparring book and boom beds life wreck myself personally recommend that you have to get is bogus must rage and you know it's it. Every page has something that is going to steal your hot and saw if you are a woman over fifty rating this book you I can absolutely guarantee by the. Time, you get to the last night, which already said, I haven't got to yet. But my editor in chief is read it and she is told me what to expect to the end you. You would just find this an incredibly path will book for you. The story is incredible. A Woman Vita goats sane is incredible and Jacqueline? Can you are amazing thank you. So I'm not joining us and being a pot of as sure as unlimited behind the book series. Thank you Johnny. And if you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, just as much as we've enjoyed bringing it to you. Drop us a like make sure you share and below, and if you've got any questions in regards to the Book Vita woman for our time, just pop those comments down below under whatever device you're streaming this podcast from and check out US socials, boom beds, life dot com you can get it obey remember if you want to get this, you can get it straight away. Just go. To Bouma Babes Life Dot com go to our website into the shop. It's they. You can order your copy straightaway and check out boobs life magazine the tied the issue with the extended interview with aspects against Jacqueline Kennedy suffering the main time where if you are who's amazing beautiful world avows I'm Johnny Morris Look Forward to having your company again on Knicks shears unlimited behind the book podcasts. Hi I'm Johnny Morris. Founder, and chief experience officer at Babes Life being absolute pleasure having you listening in tuning in. To this latest podcast we have created just for you. Gorgeous. Amazing women over fifty around the world because that's what boobs life community is all about everything that we do everything that we create we have you in mind we want to bring to your valuable content that helps inspire. You starts making you think a little bit more helps him pao-yu hopes to give you ideas and information that can help here. Sorry. If you've enjoyed this episode which I'm sure that you have we'd love you to help us share with the world. So please share this plays liked and of course, comment gives you fade back, send a all data's and of and let us know what you're thinking and of course, if you've got any topics that you would like us to highlight in any of our podcasts, please let us know that as well. Just send an email to info at Bouma Babes Life Dot Com dot AU, and, of course, check everything else added our website been the Babes Life Dot Com everything that you need to know every every tool every video every podcast. We've got a fabulous shop there. That's got some brilliant. Books and audio is for you as well, and of course, also at our website at booth Babes, life dot com, you'll find out how you can get your latest issue of our boobs life magazine for women over fifty. So once again, thank you so much for joining us aware if you are in this amazing world of. Place. have an absolutely fabulous day.

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#713 Australian Singer-Songwriter Julia Jacklin, Opinions on Blood Orange

Sound Opinions

57:11 min | 1 year ago

#713 Australian Singer-Songwriter Julia Jacklin, Opinions on Blood Orange

"Sound opinions is supported by Goose Island pairing beer and music since nineteen eighty-eight Goose Island Beer company Chicago Illinois. Listen critically enjoy responsibly start time. Are you ready for star from W._B._Z.. Chicago and Peoria this is sound opinions. I'm Jim Dear Goddess and I'm Greg Kat Australian singer Songwriter Julia Jacqueline find it difficult to stand up to people in her life but onstage. It's another story I find just saying to someone on Monday in person like can you please touch me to be so much more confronting difficult than standing on a stage in front of like a thousand people and saying that same sentiment Julia Jacqueline joins us for chat hat and a special live performance and will review the new album from the English singer Songwriter Blood Orange. That's all coming up on sound opinions to hurricane. Ah You're listening to sound opinions and this week we're talking to Julia Jacqueline. Julia is a twenty eight year old singer Songwriter and guitarist from Sydney Australia and our second album crushing is one of my favorites of the year so far I love this record for a number of reasons it basically a song cycle but a break-up but isn't a pity party. There's <hes> there's empathy there. There's a tenderness but there's also a toughness underneath the lyrics that I really love and plus it very concise. Great Melody Great Singer Songwriter Record for two thousand Nineteen <hes> you mentioned crushing Greg and <hes> Julia is indeed crushing it some of the themes she explores in the music our social perception anxiety boundaries insecurity reclaiming your power we caught up with Julia Jacqueline at Goose Island taproom in Chicago Tago and we started the conversation by asking her about what it was like to be. An artist with Indie cred who's also on the rise. It's like some days I feel so great about it and I feel like this is one incredible way to live my life hyphen I get tomato. These people and I get to travel and then other days I think like what an insane thing to do with your life. Experienced trauma write songs about it spend all this money to like. Put It on a physical disk sell it for money and then spend like two years of your life performing it like. I know that sounds so obvious but it's like I'm Juliette Jacqueline today right now that you see is not the Julia Jacqueline who wrote crushing and was that person but I have to be all Julia every night every night and I have to own L.. Julia and I have to make sure that I'm like bringing honesty and truth to those feelings in those songs but also being aware that I'm not that person right now as well so there's that disconnect like the everybody nobody in the music industry is just kind of reliving their old selves. Even if <music> are you able to serve a distance between yourself and that person who does those songs so that you're able to perform them <hes> yeah I think for two reasons one because a lot of the time for me songwriting is not necessarily not always kind of depicting exactly how I feel but how I want to feel you know like a song like head. Alone is a song that I didn't feel that courageous about asking for boundaries at the time but I desperately wanted to feel that courageous and needed to be courageous so I wrote that song as kind of lacquer like MIRA pep talk to be like come on you can do this be touched old time as my body to be mine. Yeah sorry think that your sons as well can reveal themselves to you and and help you later down the line. That's why I love the songs and also I recognized that people are coming to my shows with their own feelings and the aren't experiences that they have projected onto these songs and then I need to respect that and understand that it's you know it's for them and they they are going to hear them in a different context and in a totally different way and it's not about me as much anymore as as it was when I wrote them what I love about you. Julia as a writer is your love of taking a word turning it inside out upside down right examining all the meetings so I've heard read different interviews crushing a you had a crushing deadline to finish the second album be of course. There's that very sweet meaning of the word crush you know when it's also innocent you're twelve or thirteen or fourteen gotta crush. There's also that you're crushed in a lot of these songs by relationships that don't work out what other meetings of crushing missing I don't know sometimes the difference between how your life at PS to other people and how it is you know like I kind of went home after tearing along time and everybody it was just like Oh man. You're crushing it. You'll like killing the game like you're just doing so well like you. Don't need us anymore and like you don't need any like emotional support because you life is so great and wonderful and in reality I was like going through very lonely lonely heartbreaking time but because appeared to everyone that I was doing very well I felt like therefore wasn't given this kind of friendship and support report that I needed. I like that would because it's an intense word has many meanings and I think that as a human being like I am just like everybody used just complicated and I have great days I have bad days and tearing and being a full time musician and can be the most incredible and most fulfilling thing and it also can be incredibly difficult and lonely and Hod and strange and isolating as well power to <music> while the other word comes up again and again throughout the album is body right A. and some critic thoughtfully counted up in the first four songs it comes up twelve times and in the sense in the sense that we were you were just saying people think of you as one thing they see one thing and then there's what you really are and that that song body is so amazing and you took my to me twenty three on your bid Lucas constrained to do you still do us. <hes> I guess is just my my. I'm wondering where that's on which is so intense came from for years. I think the first the first touring thing for me and also just growing up and realizing that if you don't enforce boundaries than people will just assume that you don't have any and don't need any as. Is My experience as a woman and that also that once you start to push the boundaries and ask for them that you are one hundred percent going to get pushback from people around you about that so yeah and I think that songwriting is like like really wonderful and I feel incredibly privileged that I can do it and then I have this platform because it's it's a way for me to stay things that I find very difficult to say face to face with someone people say to me all the time like oh well you know you can get up on stage and sing all these incredibly vulnerable things and that's so crazy to you feel vulnerable and and strange and like no not at all like I find just saying to someone in person like can you please not touch me to be so much more confronting difficult than standing on a stage in front of like a thousand people and saying that same sentiment <music> actually I find that a lot easier well Julia. We have a really enthusiastic audience here at Goose Island taproom and I think a lot of people at home listening may not be as familiar with your music. So why don't you give us a song. Tell us what you want to play K.. <hes> Sonko dirty how to keep loving you <music> <music> so we stay it does she who your to the rose you know <music> now so <music> so yeah in <music> business so I don't know <music> <music> <music> doom no now <music> <music> and they I don't know how to keep loving you by Julia. Jacqueline Live unsound opinions when we return we continue our conversation with Julia about her biggest musical influences and how she's overcome pressure to be a party animal. That's coming up on sound opinions from W._B._Z.. Zie Chicago N. P. R. S. sound opinions is supported by Goose Island the brewers of next coast I._p.. A three one two urban wheat Ale and Bourbon County Stout pairing beer and music nick since one thousand nine hundred ninety eight they believe it's always best to listen critically and enjoy responsibly goose island beer company Chicago Illinois listen to you now. Welcome back to sound opinions. I'm Greg Kat. He's Jim dear goddess and this week we're talking to Australian singer singer Songwriter Julia Jacqueline at Goose Island taproom in Chicago now Julia she still relatively new to the industry and just released her second album crushing earlier this year but the emotional maturity and reflection in those songs seems far beyond her years and I wanted to know if she was always a songwriter musician or if it was something she girl into overtime later in her life. I didn't start writing songs until I was about eighteen. I didn't start writing good songs until I was about twenty two I think but I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot of stories. I was always riding his kid. I've kept a journal since I was like eight years old Mike. When I was younger I didn't play a guitar? I Sung a lot but kind of in bad musicals at the back row and I found it really difficult to figure out what my thing was as a kid I kai. It's just desperate to to do something. I couldn't figure out what it was. He was you're seeing Eh. We're talking about growing up in Sydney Australia and I say this not to embarrass you but I find it fascinating. You were big on the IRA. Levine and Britney Spears is that right yeah. That was the intro to music well. It wasn't the intro like but it was probably my like maybe even just my understanding of what women did in music and then I hear you discovered Fiona Apple was that was that the one that said well. Maybe I could do something different yeah she. I kind of I remember when I first had her. I said a friend's house when I was fourteen and I was sitting on his couch in ahead extraordinary machine. If there was a better way to govern would find me. I can't help it. The road rolls out behind behind me be kind of a Jay. I'll make the most extraordinary machine I'd never heard that before because I think you know when you're young you're listening to what your parents listen to and kind of like love hating it and then you're listening to top forty in kind of being like I probably should like this but but I'm not sure if I do and then like this like this so like all trying to be someone you not like I think I went through a phase around that time like forcing myself to listen to corn because I thought I thought that like I <music> I wanna be the kind of person that's into that music. That will be cool but I didn't why I knew I didn't like it but I thought if I listened to it enough that eventually would maybe so I remember kind of like punch through all of that noise and miss the first thing that I was like that. I genuinely liked this. Did you connect with the words or the melodies. What was it about her music? That really jumped out the words I love Hiller exciting. She's incredible lyricist and just really interesting in and strange but also not strange enough that you can't relate to it interesting perspective on relationships in love that I don't hear that music this Donna Keith GonNa keep you went to college. There's a few stories floating around that you worked in a factory with whatever an essential oils factory seeing that in all your BIOS. It's like you sound like you were Sheffield yeah oils. I don't understand yeah probably yeah. It sounds like way more hard core and romantic it was it was the best job I've ever had. I mean I like playing music obviously but it was like I wrote I wrote a lot of music at the factory but what are essential oils why essential to what are essential oils have no idea well. That's the funny thing is like whenever I say that people they like people who are really into essential oils start to go off on a tangent about the properties in the greatness of essential as I was like I was a cog in the machine. I was not like no one in the factory that I knew you knew what they were or used them themselves because we were just daily like doused in them so I always smelt so strong for like two years and I it really yeah. It totally turned me off is actually or what we had baby Masci Joel we have virtually we had orange. We had lavender we had pine all the foils where they came from. I just sat on a conveyor belt. Why didn't sit on I sat next week and then bottles came in front of me and I and I went and I filled them and then they left stunning stunning stunning dreams three and we know that this does not you're touching something I think is really underplayed underplayed in the whole idea of rock and songwriting and all this stuff you wrote a lot of songs in the factory and I keep hearing this story over and over? I had is really boring job but I wrote a ton of songs. Butch Hancock was driving tractor. You know so in a farm and rode all these great songs became part of the Texas singer Songwriter Vernacular Kurt vile the forklift story working the forklift and the factory Rotunda great songs. You're doing this these oil products and an assembly line with so you're writing songs in your head at the time. I'm just pass the time. Is that how it works. Yeah I mean you just have so much time thinking boredom and space and like the inability to be distracted by your phone and your life is so important to songwriting so I'm very grateful for that did you did you write things down or did you like record them. Or how did you remember I would take frequent bathroom breaks to the annoyance of my colleagues. I would sit in there and I've seen them into fine. There's a lot of stuff that can be misinterpreted about a person's life like people assume certain things because your public figure they make assumptions about you. It was interesting because I have two daughters in early twenties and they <hes> they listen to this record. They like it a lot but they they really focused on the song that you just played don't how to keep loving you and this other song comfort and they said this is an interesting perspective because extensively people think you're the one in power because you did the breaking up and you're the one that's free now and both my daughters have said to me you don't feel that way at all your as hurt that person that you broke up with community but in a different way and there's not many sewing we think about it. There's not that many songs written from that perspective where you kind of aware of that in that voice needed to be out. There was something that you needed to write about yeah absolutely and I think the reason it's not written about a lot because I've written songs of the Pasta I have broke out with someone or hurt someone but it's kind of easier to be like yeah. I'm just going to flip that narrative and be the victim in this situation because you get more sympathy and it's also been written about a lot of time so you can kind of like listen to music and you already in that head space. It's easy to write from that perspective so but I go to Fiona Apple. I feel like the seed seed was planted for me when I was very young about that perspective from her song about love. There's an line in which she says it's not about love in fact I can't stop falling out. I missed that stupid AAC AAC NOT A bad love low back day starhub aw STU and I really loved that because she eh she's talking about how sad it is and how much he misses and she wants to be a lot of but she's she can't stop falling out of love and that's really upsetting and sad and I remember hearing that song for the first time and being like Oh my God i Never Yeah Yeah. You don't hear that very often that how sad that can be. I have to thank for kind of having the courage to China mind that feeling and trying to write songs from that perspective without feeling like I was going to be the villain island in the narrative <hes> you're listening to sound opinions worth the goose island taproom with Julia Jacqueline Juliet you would you wanNA play a song. Maybe one of those ones that we just talked about or what were we talking about. <hes> we were talking about body talking about Body Comfort Comfort. I really Julia whatever you laze. GonNa make us happy well cool. We'll play comfort then. <music> okay you. You Sleeps You <music> soon feel to see <music> fees. ooh H- you know flow he the two <music> <music> <music> it was ooh <music> see Um <music> the Julia Jacqueline arrive at the Goose Island taproom sound opinions. What a fantastic another song that I love is is pressured apart in which again this is my interpretation of it? When I was <hes> I hearing it before I read some interviews as you've done the interviews you're sort of saints about the industry but also there's that those things that are supposed to be fun like New Year's Eve or certain winnings you know and then they just you know it's going to suck and then you are are there and it sucks and you're like why did I ever say I would go to this party? Yeah isn't that just like modern life these days. We're all just like killing ourselves to convince everybody. Also we have in like the time of Allah also. There's a great lineman. They're nothing good comes from drinking. Yes the artists sitting in the Goose Island taproom. I think it's more like if you're going coming into drinking to be like I'm gonNA drink because I feel bad and I want to like be more fun today and be more funny and be more flecha the clown at the potty that everybody can like have a good time. I'm with in well and that's kind of I think I'd been unto us. I kind of my relationship ended and then I like went home to Sydney. I was just like embarrassingly. They trying to be so just trying to be like yeah. I'm he guys back. I've been away for a long time but I'm here in crushing it. I'm just look at me. I'm killing it and I'm here and I'm gigs and I'm going everyone because I was trying so hard to reclaim my community that a high lost from being a touring musician because I was part of a Sydney music community for a long time and then suddenly I left for years and my experience totally changed so I felt like I lost my community Kennedy and I lost certain friendships from that and I lost a relationship and so then yeah I was just like very miserable but going out with this big smile on and my face trying to be like yeah life is so good yeah and that was just such a lame time of my life that I am very grateful for because this is my second echoed in that misery but also yeah I was just like a bit of a total loser like and I don't feel like I'm a loser most of the time I feel like I'm at the time pretty I'm a good person person who makes the right decisions most of the time and that was a period when I was just making bad decisions and just putting all my energy into the wrong places so is there another song Julie that you would like includes. What a Segue <hes> older pressure potty <music> <music> drinking cheese street that it is do you find out on this with by Body Touchy Otto Uh she goes down to <music> pressured family hello? <music> John Eh <music> side of <music> yeah <music> <music> Yulia Jacqueline pressure the party live at Goose Island taproom on sound opinions. Thank Hugh Again Julia for hanging out with if you're looking for more Julia Jacqueline we've got video of her performance on our website sound opinions unions dot org coming up. We review the new album from English singer Songwriter Blood Orange Plus Jim. We'll take a trip to the Desert Island Papa Quarter in the jukebox. Jim What's in store Greg Fifty Years After Apollo Eleven. I am going to the Moon Right. That's in a minute unsound opinions from W._B._Z.. Chicago and P._R.. Ex <music> <music> welcome back to sound opinions. I'm Greg Cat. He's Jim dear goddess and that's track from the new blood orange orange album. The track is called. I WanNa see you in the name of the album is angels pulse. What orange his fifth studio album blood orange otherwise known as Devante hines is a well regarded singer songwriter and producer Sir out of England? He began his career more than a decade ago in various incarnations. He was known at one time as light speed champion. He was a member of the band test icicles <hes> and then he became blood orange in two thousand thousand eight <hes> the last couple of Records Freetown sound in Negro Swan really got a lot of attention because of the depth of the production you know you keep hearing that word cinematic throwing around about his <hes> production work and his skill as a songwriter and producer has been noticed <hes> other artists such as salons Sky Ferreira F._d._a.. Twigs hyme Florence and the machine Carly Rae Jepsen have sought out his services <hes> quite a resume there now the fifth fifth studio album as blood orange again the album is called angels pulse and here's a track from it called Birmingham Unsound Opinions Food. The explosion <music> is she raised through the Birmingham called in a <music> <music> <music> that is Birmingham by blood orange from the new wellm angels pulse that is an extraordinary track greg in absolutely is that Little Gospel snippet <hes> you have singers Kelsey Luende and Ian Isaiah lifting their voices toward heaven. I it's amazing raising it of course is referencing. The mother whose daughter died in nineteen sixty three in one of the church bombings in the south at Devante hines saw this as a a mix tape <hes> it's recorded all over the world in bits. It's in pieces as he travels as he works with other artists as he's <hes> you know just just jotting down notes. Essentially <hes> I think on the first or second or maybe even the third listen <hes> angels pulse <hes> Cosima seem a little scattered almost as if your spotify jumped ahead or something and it went to a different artist you have to sit down and listen and follow the through lines in in what he is doing genre doesn't exist <hes> as far as he's concerned concerned and I think he joins a really select a list of young for lack of a better term R. and B. Singer songwriters who are doing that who are all over the map. <hes> maybe soul is the better word that's that's the common denominator his soul his perspective his <hes> just just heartfelt grooving in all of these songs whether you know regardless of what in particular sound he's doing prince is obviously a role model when Prince was at the height of his powers just creating known stop in Paisley Park and I think that's it's what Devante hines is for this period yeah. He's <hes> he's so prolific that he's handing out his music. He just gives it out to his friends. Hey take a look. This is a track I made this afternoon and if you want gives it away and now <hes> <hes> very quickly following up that acclaimed Negro Swan record in two thousand eighteen with this mix tape as you describe it is an example of sort of the odds and sods of blood orange but you know blood oranges odds and signs are a cut above most people's pods inside and as you said he's all over the map I mean gold teeth. You've got you know Lo fi southern hip hop with Roger Pat and Gangsta Boo. You've got <hes> Baby Florence which is like a synth and drum machine gene very minimalist. You've got Tuesday feeling which has a very stevie wonder if feel to the ballot you know <music>. This guy seems to be very just very adept and very comfortable and very agile with so many styles of music. It's no wonder that all these artists are calling. I'm I'm just glad to get more music from those true. You left off the list. Philip Glass really is all over the whole island was bewitched as often as possible unsound opinions. We'd like to take a trip to the desert island and play attract we. He cannot live without Jim. It's your turn this week Greg. I could not let the fiftieth anniversary of the Apollo eleven moon landing go unremarked in my desert island jukebox where recording in a few days afterwards <hes> you know I I was five in July nineteen sixty-nine. I remember vividly watching on T._v.. I was a huge space Geek. That's all I wanted to talk about in kindergarten. My mom used to tell me I had my major Matt Mason. I had my later my G._I.. Joe In the space capsule right. You know I had two choices. <hes> both are ambient instrumentals. One is the album Brian Eno. I'm sorry put out in one thousand nine hundred eighty three with his brother Roger Roger and Daniel Anwar <hes> which is pretty great <hes> but it's not my favorite e-e-e-e-no Ambi now I I love best of all the quote you know had the trip to the moon was human beings greatest art project ever and and if you look at it in that way you know the tacitly that in these machines that had less power than we have in our iphone that we were going to do that and we did it. I didn't even know about this and I bet you don't despite hype both of us being pink floyd super fans. I've read every book I know you have is well. We've interviewed the members of the band. We love this group. I'd never heard of this track until somebody brought it to my attention on facebook in July one thousand nine hundred sixty nine David Gilmore was only in the band for a couple of months. The group had not yet recorded the dark side of the moon that was in the future to come a few years on they are asked by the BBC to perform orm live as television is being from the moon of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landing on the moon right so there is this track out. There never been released on any official pink floyd album. It's super rare but you can find it on the Youtube called Moon head. I mean what a wonderfully British nineteen sixty nine sort of idea. We ought to have some music while this you know video plays of of human beings on the Moon Hey hey this is Dan pink floyd have them come in and it's essentially a twelve bar blues space jam by the Floyd. What's interesting is you can hear a little bit of money which is not yet recorded accorded not yet written right but you know floyd had their motifs and they would go back to this of course they did several soundtrack albums? They were the masters of ambient space back when syd Barrett was in the band you know interstellar overdrive. They were always dreaming of going going into another world. The you know the B._B._C.'s zoom this out live pink floyd did it and then forgot all about it and it's only resurfaced because many people have been being asked. Where were you fifty years ago? When human beings landed on the moon and David Gilmore had this story I know where I was? I was jamming in the recording studio man. This is moon head. It's not the Floyd's best but it's just so weird and wonderful in the story so good I had a share it my desert island Jukebox pick who <music> <music> Moon head by Pink Floyd. I bet you never heard that digit. I did not but thank you for blessing us with that Pink Floyd Weirdness Nisa that makes my day complete we did do an entire show songs about space. You can find that at sound opinions dot Org in the archives. What do we have on the show next week? Mr Cut next week Jim we are going to explore the cultural cultural contributions of one of our finest funnest greatest bands of all time the Ramones Heyhoe. Let's go listen to the PODCAST. Wherever you get such things special thanks this week to Goose Island Beer Company and Engineers Shelly Kelly Stephens for our interview with Julia Jacqueline sound opinions as always was produced by Brennan Benazech Alex Claiborne Ianna Contrarius and Andrew Gill he he unsound opinions? Everyone's a critic so give us a call on our hotline eight eight five nine eighteen hundred new messages. This is Bob Edgar calling from somers Connecticut <hes>. I just finished listening to your Wa wa discussion. I was very surprised not to hear you mentioned for me. The Classic Rock era use of the wall Wa even still work on the season of the witch version that time the super session album without Hooper <music> <music> Jimmy Greg My name is Jake. I'm calling from Chicago. Just wanted to add to the Wa pedal conversation. <hes> I personally think that sub Rosa by the beastie boys off hill communication is probably my go-to Wa pedal track and I just thought I'd added to the conversation thanks again little W F P K during the WanNa wash action you touch briefly on the pre electronic players doing with his plunger mute brass and you mentioned a little bit of course Chan is under appreciated a technical a technical innovator but two or three guys and country music who <hes> bid pre electronic things and then very well and very novel steel player. I still wonder how they did him. <hes> Jay Bird was one jerry work with Red Foley and he was very prominent studio musician in the early days of the studio system. One good example of Jerry Birds Kinda Wall while making the train whistle in that kind of thing listened to Hank Williams. I'm along on daddy from nineteen forty eight. I don't need any more <music> but the other guy deserves big mention on the west coast with capital was speedy whist listen to him play with Tennessee Ernie Ford doing play with Jimmy Bryant. You're going to hear hold a lot of that stuff great show Hi. This is Chris. Dortch Chattanooga Tennessee just wanted to say. I'm a long-time listener really taken by what's going on because I've always I love Alabama. Marvin Gaye was so far ahead of his time when she all correctly pointed out. It's a shame that can't be introduced in a certain house of government the Senate <hes> so people can hear it and I doubt if it would move much opinions there but it certainly as a way of encapsulating many of the problems that we're facing right now jeeze.

Julia Jacqueline Julia Goose Island Chicago Goose Island Jim What Greg Kat Fiona Apple Illinois Sydney Juliette Jacqueline Goose Island Beer Company Julia Jacqueline Juliet greg Jacqueline Live Greg Wa Senate Pink Floyd Sydney Australia
207: So What? - Jacquelyn Nicholson

Daily Sales Tips

02:04 min | 1 year ago

207: So What? - Jacquelyn Nicholson

"<music> you're listening to the daily sales tips podcast. I'm your host scott. Ingram today thought we'd continue the theme that i started off on sunday talking about how we need to consider the buyer's experience in tip to affor- than yesterday jason in some ways extended that idea in tip two low six with his ideas around prospecting with cohesive messaging this clip from my conversation with jacqueline nicholson way back in episode eight of the sales success stories podcast does a nice job of bringing it all together and then the last thing for me comes from the genesis of my career where i wasn't always selling doing before this. I used to be the person sitting across from you mr seller to buy something and for me. It came down to something i call so what <hes> so i would sit there and i would listen to these vendors coming in to talk to me endlessly and it was really to the point where i was sitting there as they blanchard on on and on and on about how fantastic their product or service was and i was thinking so what even know what i do to even know what's important to me and so for me i find that that's really really a deadly mistake that sales professionals can make is going on and on and so i try to always think about what is the so what the what's in it for me factor for the prospective customers orange. If you want more from jacqueline you've got several options. You can listen to our original interview. You can join the listener list at daily sales dot tips ups and get access to the video of her presentation at last year sales success summit titled standing on the shoulders of giants coaches mentors and you or or you can pick up a copy of the sale success stories book and read the three stories that she contributed to that links to all those and more are available for you at top one dot f._m. Forward slash two seven where you're always welcome to leave a comment and share your thoughts. Thanks for listening be sure to come back tomorrow for another great sales.

jacqueline nicholson scott blanchard Ingram jason
127: ARDEO: Narrative medicine and new play development with Jacqueline E. Lawton and Jules Odendahl-James

Artist Soapbox * Local Artists on Creative Process

50:12 min | 4 months ago

127: ARDEO: Narrative medicine and new play development with Jacqueline E. Lawton and Jules Odendahl-James

"Hey everybody welcome to artists soapbox. Artists Soapbox is a podcast featuring triangle area artists talking about their work, their plans their manifestos I. Am your host Tamra Kazan? Hey friends. This introduction was recorded on June, sixth twenty twenty. The interview was recorded on May Eighteenth Twenty twenty. I'm pleased to bring the second of two episodes featuring the work of Jacqueline even late dramaturge, producer and advocate for access equity, diversity and inclusion in the American theater. In, this episode along with dramaturge Jews Odin Doll. James. You'll hear Jacqueline discuss her play our day. Oh! Our Day was a one act play inspired by research and personal narratives of Health Practitioners and patients at UNC Chapel Hill North Carolina's JC Burns Center this play explorers how patients and doctors communicate with each other how health practitioners communicate with the public, and how theater artists can be of service to patients, doctors and the larger public. Please see the link in the show notes to learn and read more about our day to see photos and watch the short film of the piece performed. You may have noticed that. Many of the twenty twenty artists box episodes have focused on playwrights play writing and new play development, and that is certainly the case again for this episode. In this conversation Jacqueline Jules touch on the field of narrative medicine that particular play writing process for our day. The value of partnering the Dramatic Arts With Science and opportunities to create those collaborations. Speaking of collaborations, jewels and Jacqueline talk about their work together as theater makers, and the awesomeness of dramaturge and dramaturge, especially for new plays in development. Narrative Medicine is not my specialty, but it does seem to me that this may be an important moment for personal narratives of Covid nineteen. Both patients and health practitioners, sharing individual experiences and stories can be a way to share information about symptoms and best practices can be a tool for healing recovery even during isolation. And can be a way to feel seeing and to be seen. And now for the BIOS. Jacqueline Lawton is a playwright, dramaturge, producer and advocate for access equity, diversity and inclusion in the American theater. Produced plays include blood bound, and tongue tied the Hampton. Years, intelligence, mad breed, and the wonderful wizard of Oz currently. She is an assistant professor in the Department of Dramatic Art at the University of North. Carolina, Chapel Hill and dramaturge for playmakers repertory company. She is also dramatists guild. Regional Representative for North Carolina. Gills Odin. Del James Is Director and dramaturge, specializing in art and science, collaborations, documentary, professors and works by women playwrights. She's a CO founder of Durham's bulldog. Theater after four years as an associate artistic director at Man Bites Dog Theatre from twenty fourteen to twenty eighteen. At Duke University she is a lecturer in Theater Studies, the program director of Arts and Humanities advising a member of disability access initiative, and at twenty seventeen eighteen teaching for equity fellow. She was Kinley scholar of medical. Humanities Pin State College of Medicine and an affiliated Faculty of Dukes Reimagining Medicine Pilot Program in twenty eighteen. She has taught courses in medical humanities such as playing doctor, medical stories on stage, performing science and visual cultures of medicine. Enjoy the. Episode. Hello Jewel. Hello Jacqueline so much for talking with me this Monday morning. I would like to talk a little bit about our Deo a project that you have worked together before we launch into that I'm wondering if one of you would begin with talking about what is narrative medicine for those listeners myself included who aren't as familiar with that narrative medicine is a practice. It's a field of study. It is one that encourages healthcare professionals to study narrative theory and literature as a means by which to meet patients stories which are complex and winding. With the kind of attention to you know not just the facts Ma'am that kind of dragnet approach, but to really find out to really learn how to listen and also narrative medicine is a practice that's offered to healthcare professionals to write their own stories right their own kind of winding understandings of. Not only diagnostics, but the dynamics of medicine and care and giving their space for their own subjectivity, it's also one that tries to conquer that false divide between subjectivity and objectivity as saying that all knowledge is are valuable and necessary particularly when we come to the complexity of treating someone with an illness that it doesn't even need to be a complex illness to have complexity in its experience. Experience and so narrative medicine has become a tool. It's also being assessed now for how does it have impact on on patient outcomes as well as on physician resilience, there's a crisis in healthcare long before the pandemic between how physicians and practitioners of all different kinds are dealing with the complexities of the social practice of medicine is experienced everything from its economics to the wrestling with mortality. So these are all things that need practitioners who are able to see with multiple lenses and narrative medicine offers narrative particularly as one of those ways to provide another complex lens to the complex practices. You mentioned that this was being assessed for outcomes. What are the outcomes that we're seeing well? Outcome is always a rest of thorny question between arts and Sciences. Sciences there are things that are trying to I. Think Measured Literally Patient Outcomes does a practice of narrative medicine or of journaling or of collaborative storytelling or listening to a patient story and writing about it. Do these things change something about the way this? The patient is experiencing their care the way that they recover the way that the physician approaches their job. Those outcomes are hard to measure and whether they are valued once they are measured is a big question. There's a lot of embrace of the term wellbeing being around art and health these days that well being as diagnostic measure is something that we need to be looking at more seriously, and it's also one of those things that is very complex and difficult to measure. I think sometimes I would like science to let go of the measuring part of it because again you can turn a practice that is coming from a good place and doing good things into something that becomes wrote, and like measures you have to hit and that I think undermines its benefits sort of like wellness and wellness almost as a tyranny these days. Are You well? Are you doing your mindfulness like? Like these are packages ideas that have a good origin, and have a very kind of freeing space to, but when they become diagnostic measures or outcome measures, they can be like Oh. Am I doing it right? Are there things that I've done? Am I doing them in the proper order? And now I just feel like it's another thing. I have to do as opposed to being more connected to my being. So at Columbia University, where narrative medicine this is where readers Sharon, who's wanted the I would say sort of the founding members of the discipline. They are doing a assessment measures in relationship to recovery from particularly I think complex chronic illnesses like cancer, but at the same time that's becoming sort of part of a physician assessed practice. I think there are other dimensions where people are starting to question why. Why does assessment need to look a particular way? How do we start talking about impact in relationship to these practices without making them feel like another thing you have to do instead of finding the best things that work when you're working with the patient, or when you're thinking about yourself as a caregiver, what sense what brings the best experience to this moment and letting those have some space of value. In their effectiveness, thank you for that. You know one of the things I wanNA talk about is the feedback that you'll have received from Deo. And about valuing the individual experience, the individual unique experience and giving that value both as a story, but also as as we experience it as audience members I think is something that can sometimes bump up against our desperate need to have everything quantified and to accrue data that is sort of uniform and it. It results in kind of a strange like teaching to the test that happen. Jacqueline. Could you dovetail for us into this audio project? Absolutely so on my interest in narrative medicine actually started without that terminology wrapped around it. It was my mother had several back surgeries and she was actually she pretended to this nurse. She was working in a nursing home, and a patient was resisting being lifted in push charge she fell, and that's what caused the beginning of her back injury in multiple surgeries later. She was told that she was incapacitated and that was a word that was given to her. And the thing that I have always really long for is different language to be applied from inevitably from the point of view of the patient. My Mother did not feel incapacitated. My mother felt it extraordinary pain, and she felt immediate difference in her way of life, and she was also no longer working as a nurse, but the language vague capacitators didn't actually reflect her reality, but that was a term that kept being lobbed at. At her and I thought that was such. An interesting and I think unfortunate way that medicine can be communicated or are the result of healthcare. I wanted my mother's to tell the story of how she was feeling from her specific point of view, and not just because she's a medical practitioner, but because she's a human being who's having this relationship with her body, and can speak out loud to experience happening within her body. And so the later medals. I got to learn about this practice. Night was also invited to be a part of the National Academy of Science and separately the National Institute of Health. They each held these conversations with theater artist and the idea was. Can we get data artists interested in telling stories? Of Science so that scientists away to reach larger communities about their findings. And so. A lot of really interesting people in that conversation including Dr Jim Evans geneticists here at UNC, and then I was I'd actually accepted the job at UNC inside, told him, and he said well. Let's meet when you when you moved down here. He's very passionate about theatre. And so I knew I wanted to collaboration with him, surrounding genetics, which later became a play among these things, and then focus my anniversary any and I let him know that I was interested annex, exploring collaborations with scientists and medical practitioners, and he introduced me to burst Cairns who's the director of North Carolina JC burn? Center here. UNC and we started talking about. How can we tell the story of what happened at the burn center because Burns Burns, so there are diseases that get a lot of attention. Get a lot of funding behind them, but burns are not that Burns are hard to look at and so it's difficult to attract people's interest, so I was immediately. You know interested in working with him to tell these stories because he spoke about Burns there. The great equalizer doesn't matter your race. Gender class doesn't matter what you are who you are. You can be impacted by burn. And so I applied for another grant and got some fundings I could work with jewels. And Students at UNC school the arts were the actors that I worked with Kevin hench Williams was our. Dr Cares actually had a heart attack in the middle of our project, which stopped our process because he was my partner in this, and he needed to heal, you know. His health became the top priority in so I told him we're GONNA. Stop so that we can figure out what you actually need on the other side of this. Maybe you actually don't need. Need to be working with the playwright ready to play, but on the other side of as his healing began, he said more than ever. He wants these stories about the work that they do at the burn center to be told, so we continued the practice, so we actually ended up writing a twenty minute play. That was the result of conversations I had with. Medical practitioners from Doctors Internists Nurses Chaplains that work there at the hospital, and then people who work at the burn centers after-care program 'cause they are when you think about narrative medicine, the story obviously doesn't stop with diagnosis treatment. There's also recovery in life beyond and the burn. Singer really has a phenomenal program for their patients in former patients beyond the program, so that project so twenty minute play. That looks at you. Know the history of the burns. Center how it got started in different voices from students who are in the medical were learning about medicine in deciding that Burns is something they want to actually for injuries or something. They WANNA explore. We need medical doctors. We need burn survivors at all. In this twenty minute processing it. I started as a play, we had to readings of it one here at UNC Chapel Hill, and then one at Unisys go the arts, and then it actually went on to become a film. We got it. Don't which is really exciting, and then I was able to share that film with students in the medical school, which was also very exciting. When you ask the question about what was the response, and then also to Joel's desire to? Shift measurements of one of the most exciting things for me was in the post show discussion that happened at UNC. We had as our panelists at UC school the arts the panelists were myself. Joel's Cabinet Williams in the end, the six actors who were of the play at UNC Chapel Hill believe I, was on the panel, and and that it was also. Bruce Ends his colleagues in the actually had some of the people who I interviewed some of the burned survivors that I interviewed, and one of the men said I this. This is the beyond measurement. He's said that. You know the person has alive activities, and they bite all of us to everything, and of course we better families to be a part of it. My father has never come to any of the events. Except for today, this was his first time coming to an event to hear the story about people like us. People who had been burned in who are now survivors. And I felt like. That's the measurement that we should look at is who shows up. Who's interested in stories? What are they learning? How are they moving through their lives differently? Having been taught that how they experienced? What's happening in their bodies? Should be the first thing that's asked in. We should be guided by that experience in that practice I just wanted to follow up with that. Is that narrative medicine up to this point? In time there have been lots of plays about illness, but the idea of including plays in the Canon of Narrative Medicine Beyond wit Margaret Edison's you know sort of gripping play about a English professor who is experiencing cancer plays tend to be left out of it. I think partly because they ask a communal response narrative medicine. Poems Memoirs Novels. Have A to be sometimes a very personal process in practice, and so I think it was both important to us to claim our day Oh in the Canon of narrative medicine to try and make more space for plays in that space, and also see what the you know. Both the construction and experience and response to plays can offer narrative medicine. Medicine as as a discipline, and so again I just think that what Jacqueline points to and somebody it. It does draw different people into the room, and the experience of those stories shared by actors right on stays there embodied in different ways in this was a young, very vibrant cast who performed it, and I think that also had a tremendous impact. For the audience there, too, so it's this bodies speaking in a different kind of way with a different kind of presence that can bring out a different kind of experience. We talk a little bit about how this piece is constructed. I'm curious to know if different things had to be in place during the development process when compared to building a you know what we think of as a typical classic play What needed to be in place? How was this process? How did it unfold? Oh, I, really love this question. So what needed to be in place was knowledge so. In by that. I mean in in I love how jewels before. About. What is narrative? Medicine spoke about the multiple ways of knowing so I had to learn. Multiple things before this play could come into existence so something that was already in place was the history of the Burns Center. So that's something the narrative the history they have that it's on their website that exists, but that actually did not common till the first draft of the play was actually completed. But then prior to even starting the play, I had to be in conversation with these medical practitioners, and also the survivors, and so I was actually at UNC medical, school Msn gave me a conference room for four hours over the course of like six days, and a student actually was with me a medical student, actually who had taken a player in class with me was there because this was. Was a part of her knowledge building herself like she's about to become a medical professional. She'd love being stationed with medical professionals. specifically wants to be the kind of practitioner who is listening deeply to their patients. So this was something that was really useful for her, so all those interviews had to take place I in those were hard was really hard interviews to process because I, met A. Who his first day of work he's witnessed. Both you able to pray over a birth, and also helped the family who had lost the patriarch of their of their family in his first day in going through that as people are telling your store their own story, you're being impacted course by which courses video storytelling. So belt. Pieces had to be in place I before I could start writing at did additional research just on literally like what is a burn? What does the burn due to tissue and an organs? Then what is the degree to which you the degree level of heat where the body goes in shock like that? So those are things like I just had to learn for myself like in my person in order to figure out how to write about this. Those sorts of things needed to be set, but the structure of the play came in in Persia with jewels is as figuring out. How is historic be told, and who all do we need to hear from like I know that in my in my research, I heard from a lot of different types of people. Who Do we WANNA? Make sure we hear from in this process. The actually the one group of people who I didn't talk to, but had working with me was a medical student, and so I was really glad that we and I don't remember how that came as you might remember, but we I go I. Think it was because we need to figure out how to teach about burns. So that the audience had an understanding of what this what this is. So, what better way to teach about burns in the have a medical professor teaching students in students you know with their high energy and excitement competition enthusiasm not to show what it is. They learned, but also needing to learn themselves, and then, of course we needed to learn about like rapid response like what happens with a first responder shows up to a burn victim. Like what what do they need to know in do and so that showed up in the world the play we just passed a lot of questions about if we're writing a play about the experience of burn practitioners in burn survivors. What do we need? We want the audience to walk through like wet. What does the experience? We want the audience to have it as much as we could. We want them to experience multiple voices around what can happen. While something beautiful about plays, is coral right the coral that happened you can have individual people speak together as one voice, but then representing and break off into different spaces, and so this was one of the things about burn treatment. Is this inter disciplinary professional right, so it burns affect every part of the human body, which means there's particular specialties that are had but the folks. Folks who are in cardiology in pulmonologist in skin care, everyone has to be working together, so the idea of kind of a team can be so i. think powerfully represented by a chorus of people working together, and then you have that the group of people can be very specific individuals, so we hear detailed voices and points of view, but then they can shift and become. The sounds of the you know sort of responding to the sounds of the equipment, the group of people who would be first responders, the group of family members right so the way that theater can allow a set of people to shift from one person in place to another without confusion, if you can give the audience sort of signposts and ways of understanding and I think that that both seemed after so many interviews seemed essential to the. The dramaturge, play and I. Think so effective in that dramaturge, because the people in the audience were from all of these different communities, remembering times where they all had to kind of come together or at least had to know what was happening in this other group in order for something else for treatment to move forward, or you know moving into after care when you need to know the history of what a patient has been through. And I think part of that was also into the play as we went into the rehearsal process, which I think is also really exciting. With Kathryn Hunter Williams her wanting to bring, we didn't just do a stage. Reading scripted scripts at a music stand. These young actors are so phenomenal. They were ready to get off book. show up in the most exciting way but what she really wanted to help us do is. So with the sound design that came in the different beeps that showed up. Is that what we know? We here in medic in a hospital sounded ambulance of course, and then even things like when a defibrillator is happening in everyone breaks in you back away like making sure that those actions are shown because this is what we is everyday individuals whether we've experienced yourselves. We've seen it on any medical television show, so we understand this world allen the other thing that was really great that when the medical professionals spoke with me, it was on there so generous with your time. They came on their break to talk to me and for those interviews we were in the break room. You know so. We got to experience the kinds of conversations that take place in a in a break room with medical professionals. which unless you are that you don't have that experience? So that became a part of the world of the play to first of all I want to say that I feel like the fluidity of the structure of. Of this piece was really useful, and in the ways that you mentioned that you both mentioned in giving us a kind of a broad sense of the experience, and I felt like it opened up possibility for more people to see themselves represented and their experiences represented I imagine as audience members that breadth helped everybody feel more included in what you are putting out there for people I guess. I also want to say that through this podcast. It's really even more so become apparent to me how important it is for people to tell their own stories in their own words as it living people as a way of being seen and valued and heard and I think that's one of the great gifts that these types of narrative medicine theater pieces can offer to people. It affirms the value of their lived experience of what they've overcome individually and in community because I just WanNa lift that up as is something that I see as a gift that you are giving to people. Can you talk a little bit more about what you see as the value that this type of peace affords can be the value of the process or the value of the product, so I was talking with the with the burn survivors. The thing that I was taught is that not everyone in there comes a point when this becomes true is that they call themselves? Burn overcome irs because there's there's a way in which the healing process it, not that it it is complete, but that its that you no longer defined by this event. That happened to you this great. event. And you've you've overcome this thing that happened and. I was so happy to have been given that given that inside information because I was able to put it in the play, which audience members than really greatly appreciated this space of injury treatment. He Lane recovery overcoming so that traumatic events which alter your life. And defying a particular moment in time. Absolutely, there is a world where you can overcome it. And whether it be physical markings may always remind you, but you're no longer stuck in that it stuck isn't quite the right word, but that trauma is no longer what is driving each moment of each day in each thought. And I? Game that was such a beautiful space to. Beautiful Gift to be given in a beautiful space to realize, and it was really really happy to put it in the play, because that's been something that people have really truly appreciated including the medical students who, after watching the twenty minute film in listening to the push of a session, said to me that that space of overcoming is what we should all strive for, and obviously it's. It's not on the doctor's clock. It's on the individuals clock, but what that means is that the doctor? The nurse, the internists that. Whoever is always listening to the patient and I got? Yes, that's it that right there. It's the listening to the patient is what we're getting to hope in what I have seen. Is that this play because we do have the patients speaking? And we do have the doctor's talent nomadic medical professionals telling us why they decided to go into medicine in the first place. I hope people can see it, so they can start to realize that their point of view their perspective. Their individual story is what's needed in that healing in healthcare process. Another aspect of this was that while there are elements of this piece that are rooted in documentary theater in that sort of deep listening interviews and spending, time and spaces, and really trying to absorb the kind of material lived conditions of the people who you're trying to learn about whose stories you're listening to. It isn't a documentary play. It isn't meant to be a precise representation. It is theatrical. It is trying to use the dimensions of. Of Multi Vo Calisi of multiple place in time, and that characters are distillation of many stories. They're not universalized. They're very specific, but they're not necessarily trying to be you know the J it's the burn center at is were being honest and responsible to a history, but that history is poetic as much as it is real, and I don't need to put poetry and realism in a in a in a binary against one another but I think that it has the expressive qualities of it are the places in which than lots of different people? People can find themselves represented or push against representation without necessarily feeling like there's a right or wrong that this is of capturing of a moment in time of a cycle of treatment, and within that it one of many, and it kind of acknowledges that by its multiple calendars right it's it's not trying to be the end all and be-all, but it is as welcoming as it can be, and as a jumping off point for. Other ways other stories other. You know sort of in conversation with other pieces. I think that that is both it's it. It can move from Bert. It doesn't always have to be about burns right. It can be to any profession, but it also is It really embraces the form of theater. What Theodore can do specifically in telling these stories, which is unique in its art form. I think if we let it be. And, so the things that theater can teach narrative or that narrative in theater together can start to make visible or a make resonant for people is. That there's a lot of ways that this piece becomes a kind of. Example. It's not meant to be a model, but just an example chose. Can we talk a little bit more about opportunities for? Theater makers with an medical humanities across interdisciplinary unity's for them within this narrative medicine like Sama theater maker and I want to just like this. How do I? You heard just out there. Jacqueline, saying the first thing is that you get a grant I mean I think the the. Key Element is is both finding your collaborators I I actually think we knew each other before you were on that panel at Nih Jacqueline, but I'm not sure whether we actually came to know each other. In the circle of theater makers being in conversation with scientists, which is a big interest of mine, and boasting Jacqueline produced or her own play writing in response to that, but also where how do you get at seat at that table? I mean scientists are very interested in people communicating their reality right so here's the science youth theatre maker are the. The storyteller and you go and do that and I think those collaborations They're not not like falling off the trees, but they are comment because this skills that we are given the skills that you're given to work in a science lab are not necessarily thinking about. How will I explain this to anybody? or how will I make people care about what I'm doing? I'm just doing what I'm doing and the spaces in training that were given his story. Makers is about communication, always always thinking our audience, and sometimes to our detriment. Right that we. We sort of think about Oh. Wait a minute. Who am I talking to as opposed to? What do I WANNA? Unearth so there is a positive set of collaborations that are available. It's not frequent partly because we go back to that measurement aspect and science medicine, being a branch of science right is very interested in quantifiable impacts and story making, and you can get an I an NSF grant that is focused on education and communication and VAT sometimes as a space where you can collaborate, but the parameters four even the impact of that story you know. Know like what you have to prove, and what you have to show our immense, you know the Sloan Foundation, which is a national science foundation that's interested in funding communication about science, a play writing competition every year, and some of the plays that come out of there are incredible, and some of them feel like pr letter for science ride. They don't necessarily feel like art, but you know so. Artists have to strike this tentative balance between 'em I serving the story, which means it might go in lots of different places or am I serving the. Expected outcome which is does that person now knows something about X. Y., z., phenomenon or science. Right and I think that tension. You have to find good collaborators I. Think Jacqueline found one in. Dr Cairns I. Forget the person that you met at the NIH? WHO's a ductile geneticist Dr? Right, if you can find those collaborators on the scientific or medical field, who are are willing to use their influence and have an expansive view on storytelling in their own projects, I'm I'm collaborating with a scientists climate geologist at UNC. I've been working with her for two and a half years on a play that she wanted to write out of her research. She's someone who's well respected in her scientific field, but. But. Her field is also dealing with the kind of difficult narrative around climate, change and beach, restorations and housing, and all of these kind of larger social issues, and she wanted to engage a different way of telling the story of her research, and that became a play so finding someone who is an expert in a field who is willing to put their expertise in different context or collaborate with your expertise. To find out. What can you tell together I? Think is the. It's the greatest gift when you can find it. It's also the thing that a lot of times. You kinda have to work carefully to find out. How do we make work together? Because the demands for the outcome of that work are so different. How do we understand what are the values that were working together in order to achieve if it's education than it's that is, it's changing. You know sort of changing the public narrative. Okay, then it's that. Is it not deeper knowledge about the science? Each one of those might require a slightly different collaboration and certainly. Certainly a different outcome plays great because they can hold lots of different realities right. There's lots of different forms that that can take, but you also have to be on the same page if you're making new work around that on. How are we going to get there? What are we going to let drive the collaboration being attached to universities, really great for a theater artists. Because you've got creative research is something we do all the time and you got access. To these folks, but the other thing I would say start with yourself. Start with literally your health stories the hill stories of your family like I think about like when you got the doctor to fill out like what is your medical history and you have to figure out what is your family's medical history, their medical history and that's where the stories began obviously accuracy Devlin's very important. You know if you're actually trying to. To share out information you want that to be accurate. That's one of the things in working with the NASD I H is We love drama. We love narrative because the storytelling nature is what captures the audience. We also WANNA. Make sure without weighing it down too heavily that it's accurate but I think for those who may not be able to write a grant, or who might not have access like I do to. People at University I. Think if you can start telling your particular story and the story of your. What's going on with your family? I think that's that's the beginning of a process. Right author so many things we can talk about. It's very hard to wrap this up. Okay we do need to come to a close. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that. You would like to mention before we wrap up. I would just say we haven't touched on it. The implication is there that Jacqueline and I are both drama Turks. Work with other people when we worked together, I tend to be her dramaturge and I'm also a director. Right where we have these different facets in hats, but I think one of the things that is beneficial about if you can if you're someone who writes. And it doesn't. They don't have to call themselves dramaturge if that title is intimidating, because I can understand how it has, it seems very academic and more like sort of something being attached to your work, but I think if you can find a collaborator who can bring a broader sense or add to what already are your strengths, other strengths and perspectives. Someone that you trust someone who can if you can work with them over a period of time, I think that's great. Because you can evolve, can share with them the different aspects of your work. Work and they can both get to be your audience. You're embedded audience as well as then your sort of embedded critic or embedded person who's going? Wait a minute or asking a question that you know you. Trust is as genuine and yet complicated that you're willing to answer right, or you're willing to say. That's not that I. Don't need to answer that question right now and trust me I know why right so I think just the deep collaboration particularly around theater partly, because what we're doing is already trying to carry so many voices and anticipating. Anticipating so many different listeners and experiencers that the benefit of having somebody that you you trust to work with is already anticipating that moment, and sometimes working with one person I think it's great, but you can also get that if you work with multiple people because again it's an opportunity, but developing habits of work that feel good to you so that if you have a different collaborator each time you know what you need from that person, and you can articulate it, and if you find that person says if they do their job well, typically they can. Can Say I. Hear you and that is what I will give you I would say it I I'm biased because I've had a fairly i. feel like both personally productive and professionally exciting collaboration with Jacqueline, but it's been over a number of years, and I haven't necessarily had that before with anybody except my spouse and what it has shown, what has helped me grow as a person, and even outside of the work that we do together I'm kind of carrying that experience with me, and I think that makes me a better theater maker overall that. Yet that's so beautifully said and I would say I would agree because I feel like with rating with jewels as a dramaturge. You know I always I come to her with these just big questions like this is what I wanna do like thinking about among these things, which is like I wanted to explore. Play the dresses. Human Rights American imperialism in Nigeria and genetics. And I put it in a play with like five p Ball. Help rate so I go to her, and I can say this are though the recent immigration play. That went through so many iterations and I'm like Omega insists maybe says maybe pose. Thing and Gills can say to me just right. Just sit down. Stop trying to figure it all out before in the play, and just right and I know I can trust I trust her to tell me what it is I need to do in the moment and again we can work together. It's only been five years I've only been here five years, but it feels like at least thirty because we packed in so many projects in that five year timeframe by which I mean I come to her every day with a new idea and say is this of interest. Interest. Can we play on this together? And I literally just gables three more plays for the summer, and it's just it's just really delicious, because the brilliant thing that a trick is able to do, particularly want as smart as jewels she can see what is unique distinct about each particular story, and that the thing that I was doing in one play is not gonNa work for this other play. She can identify lazy writing. She knows when my writing is very lazy because I hit a point of. Exhaustion or I haven't done the interrogation into a character that I should or just lost in the role, the play at the moment, so having that kind of collaboration I can send the play her in word, and know that all the markings in that are gonNA show up are good to be what strengthens the play, because she's so inside of my writing, and so inside of the intention of the peace, even when I'm in the mud of it, she can see so clearly where it is on trying to go and then help to get me help to get me there really and the other thing that working with the drama trick is so just life. Saving grace is that. All those audience questions and all those. Opinions the drama Ter- can help decipher what is good to think about and enjoy what is useful to move the play forward. What is let's hold this out over here because it's not gorgeous. Play at this moment may be a year from now. This note is GonNa. Be Valuable, but not right now the so that's been. That's been migrated. Join working with Joel specifically, and and when you can find a good drama trick. That's able to do all those things. Hold onto them as long as you can. Because it's a, it's a really beautiful beautiful connection. Have thank you both so much. I love this as a way to end our conversation. I'm totally here for our theater pods. There's just so much to be said for working in collaboration with people who care for us and care for the work we do, especially as that relationship develops over time, so thank you so much for speaking to that. Thank you for the work that you do which I am so inspired by, and for just being wonderful individuals and wonderful team, so thank you I will put links in the show so that. People can watch the film and read about it. I'm sure they will be as inspired as I am. Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you. Thanks so much for listening for more information. Please see the show notes and artists Soapbox Dot Org. You can also listen to the six episodes of our new scripted audio fiction piece the new Colossus at the new Colossus PODCAST DOT com. Thanks so much. Hey Franz, this introduction was recorded on June sixth twenty twenty. The interview was recorded on May Eighteenth Twenty twenty. I'm pleased to bring the second of two episodes featuring the work of Jacqueline Lawton playwright, dramaturge, producer, and advocate for access equity, diversity, and inclusion in the American theater in this episode along with dramaturge Gills Odin Doll James? You'll hear Jacqueline. Discuss her play our day. Oh! Our Day was a one act play inspired by research and personal narratives of Health Practitioners and patients at UNC Chapel Hill North Carolina's. Center this play. Explorers how patients and doctors communicate with each other how health practitioners communicate with the public, and how theater artists can be of service to patients, doctors and the larger public. Please see the link in the show notes to learn and read more about our Deo to see photos and watch the short film of the piece performed. You may have noticed that. Many of the twenty twenty artists soapbox episodes have focused on playwrights play writing and new play development, and that is certainly the case again for this episode in this conversation, Jacqueline and Jules touch on the field of narrative medicine, the particular development process for our day, the value of partnering the Dramatic Arts and Science and opportunities to create those collaborations. Rations, jewels and Jacqueline talk about their work together as theater makers, and the awesomeness of dramaturge and dramaturge, especially for new blaze in development. Narrative Medicine is not my specialty, but it does seem to me that this is an important moment for personal narratives of Covid nineteen both for patients and health practitioners, sharing individual experiences and stories can be away to share information about symptoms and best practices can be a tool for healing and recovery, even during isolation can be a way to feel seen to be seen.

Narrative Medicine Jacqueline UNC North Carolina director May Eighteenth Twenty twenty Jacqueline Lawton UNC Chapel Hill North Carolina Jacqueline Jules Burns Canon of Narrative Medicine producer Humanities Pin State College o Joel Covid Del James Dramatic Arts With Science Duke University professor arts and Sciences
Jacqueline Toboni

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

1:11:57 hr | 11 months ago

Jacqueline Toboni

"Hi Everyone Sophia. Bush here welcomed a work in progress where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where. They think they're still going. Oh God guys. I'm so excited about today. I think that this is actually the first work in progress interview with someone that I've been on a show and it was hands down one of the most fun foaming experiences I have ever had in my life. Jacqueline Bony is an amazing actress. Who I got to work grip on the NETFLIX? Show easy. You haven't seen it yet. You should go watch. You're welcome. It was so much fun to have my co Star and my now dear friend on the pod to learn more about her childhood chocolate grew up in San Francisco and went to Catholic school to hear how she landed her first acting job while still in college casual here hear about her time working on grim also working with the amazing Joe Swartberg our writer director on easy and now she is starring in the l Word Generation Unq-. I was so thrilled to talk about how everything in life has led her to this moment. What it means to be forging path with a new queer identity? I can't wait to watch her on that. Show enjoy my friend Jacqueline. Well Hi hi. Thanks for coming on so I would hope that every single person who's listening to this as seen our episode of easy. But who knows if you you didn't listeners. You're welcome let's get into it because that people are always like. How do you know these people and we for anyone who saw it and anyone who didn't Jacqueline and I work together on. This amazing show called easy to Netflix series. This fantastic writer and director named Joe Swartberg created the show. It's an anthology about sex and relationships. And how those things work technology not ours go no sex sex relationships technology Marriage family young eating dating. I guess all running mad lives uh-huh and yes so we got to do that together in Chicago you and QC started on that show in. Its first seasons. There's an episode for your characters every season and then I came in and helped to stir it up those great. It was so much fun I think also also. I don't know if you are the reason for this. I'm sure you are because everybody loves you so many fans but I've never been recognized recognized as much as I did. Third Season Amisi even in the first and second seasons like I went to pride and I was like Oh my God. I'm very overwhelmed. Tony People Watch this episode Bush. I make I mean I told a couple million people and did it turned into one of my favorite memes. That I I saw was like someone made this amazing gift of our love scene and it got tweeted so many times like some amazing person on the Internet was like superheroes. The British finally giving the gays. Everything they've ever wanted and literally. It got like retweeted thousands and thousands of times and I was like I mean. Of course we're here to give you what you want. It's my honor. No skin off our about I was took cool. Okay so before you became I'm queer icon on television because you are and it's only about to like explode into the stratosphere with the next project we'll get to I. I like to go back back because I realized I sit across from people who I love and Adore and I know who you are right now but like were you a miniature version of this person as a kid kid like Oh were you. This sort of like thoughtful and comedic an spontaneous human. WHO's Jacqueline as a kid? I know you grew up in San Francisco Cisco but definitely I think all those things maybe not thoughtful the definitely comedian spontaneous. Just just like since I was little have always liked to entertain on a release small-scale with my family and like at school I was just so overly involved. I think looking back I was like. Oh my God what does that mean. Were you like the president of every club at school sword. Sort of like I was vice president of the soon buddy the rally person so I read all the rally along with this league nut I truly to go like really into it got it. I one time took a took doc. Mascot was giving us a lot of Shit specifically because we were women that were leading are cheering section. And so I took off his the reardon. Crusaders Sater's all boys school helmet like hats and punted it onto the basketball court. Hurt really bad that I caught some of the cage just limited off. Pretend nothing happened but yeah I was really excitable. I really liked being. You know getting people into stuff offended how God my cousin's wedding right before actually Gavin Newsom gave the speech after me and I I was ten years old and I was like I want to give a speech running. My cousin was like why but okay and it was like his siblings. And I and Gavin newsom and ends of very interesting Max and you have like an. I did ten minutes of an impression of Dr Phil. Giving them advice on how to be in a relationship in a marriage in a healthy marriage is there video of this. I don't know I hope so. There has to be somewhere I will try to find it. We we gotta talk to your mom. Yeah Okay I've actually never seen like a home video of myself 'cause I'm the fifth kid. Five kids under eight years old. You're like magic on just whipping out the video camera with the fun of it anymore. You're just make sure they're all alive. Yeah how is that because five kids under eight feels very overwhelming to me. What's growing up in the two bony household like as the youngest of five? And My. Gosh very fun. I loved loved it and I'm such a youngest kid. I'm sure you would agree. I'm like so yeah I'm youngest. Don't really know how to describe it. There is like a a little bit of the you have to fight for your talking place at the table on. But I think that's why I became so into performing or making people laugh. Laugh because you get your attention and I did and one day when I continue winning. I love you saying this. You can't. You're literally sitting across from me in a Soccer Jersey with your hands on your thank ready to win. Ready to rally Kelly. Okay so you grew up in San Francisco which is like obviously for the most part pretty progressive. It's environmentally conscious. It's like a cool. Oh that's pretty cool part of California What what kind of values were you raised on like? What are what are your parents like? Oh my parents are the best. They're so sweet. Name's Marian Joseph up talked about this. My God Mary and Joseph no Super Catholic super loving Irish Italian mine tire. Mom's side of the family was raised in this neighborhood. We live in so the house she grew up in is like four houses up from me and then my aunt Julia lives there now and my aunt Barbara lives across the street. When Kathy's to live up the street so we call ourselves whenever we go places together for a wedding or anything? We call ourselves the traveling neighborhood because we're all together and there's one on the youngest of twenty seven first cousins Ann Arbor else's married. Nobody else has kids. Because I'm the youngest. I'm twenty six. Whatever yeah yeah? That's so cute. That feels like a movie Julia or sort of like that nostalgic American dream ideal that I think everybody thinks they had or wanted to have ever to be in a neighborhood like that. Well I hear frightened And I'm looking at you. I see what you're imagining and it wasn't necessarily like that because I'm the youngest by so much right. So all of my other cousins sort of grew up together together and then there was the younger half that grew up together right. Because there's twenty seven because there's so many so really it was my siblings and I and a couple of my cousins. It's that were that got to play together and stuff like that. A lot of it was my brothers. Yeah I'm picturing like the pop up hockey yes in the street. Kind of totally the mini any. Stick right Yes yes yep yeah a lot of basketball a lot of I mean. We had boxing gloves. which DIKO over? Well my mom and I would go out to dinner and one of my brothers would be in charge of my brother Paul and I and would have like fights and the fight stopped when parks coming with a right hook landed one punch on him and it was the greatest moment of my entire life because he was so quick and I hit him once and I was just in awe that I had done this and then you just hit me with. I like went down pretty. It's like that moment of celebration. Makes you freeze. Forget you're in the middle of a fight. You just forgot to that. Yeah Yeah I my hi. Mom taught me to box started like really teaching me how to throw in Landa Punch when I was little. I had this horrible bully at school. This girl who was just man she was a piece of work and like we were little. So the the amount of violence coming from such a young child feels extreme. And my momma like for like first grade he. Oh Yeah oh well like first or second grade like six seven eighty. Yeah we were little and I remember my mom telling me that I would just get in the car after school crying and you know she started realizing I had bruises from being punched this girl and and every I remember the day people were playing. You know recess kind of idyllic little school children in a sandbox sort. The situation and we got into like a bit of a tug of war because she tried to take a toy that me and my other friend who I grew up with were playing with and I was like he and I are using this. And when we're done you can have it like there are rules to sharing your boundaries were so boundaries were clear and it's I had to learn because my You know I'm an only but my my godparents were essentially. My aunt and uncle have three kids so the four of us grew up together so I sort of had the best of both worlds like I go home when things got really out of hand someone punched me in the face but I also grew up in this like really loud gregarious household. Long say longer he and I were playing because we went to school together for a couple of years and this girl was so mad that we wouldn't give up our toy. She went into the classroom. Sharpen a pencil outside. Shoved it up my nose and I like actually had to go the hospital. She like Shh like pregnant shit. She's shift me in the face. We were little kids. I was covered in blood. I had to go to hospital and the that night. My mom was like that's it. You're learning how to box and the next day when she came for me. I punched her in the face. So Yeah I learned similarly lead to box at a young age and it was really a self defense mechanism but I've kind of kept up with it a little bit just look. I don't hit people but I do it for exercise. Only if you to my mom and my sister handled bullies very differently for me because I think my immediate impulse would be just like knock somebody out and I don't think they wanted that and this call was teasing me. It's really who ended up being one of my really good friends and my mom's like okay. Next thing she says next next she said something to juice. Go into your fat bastard and Russian and I was like okay. So she'd be near my baby back by the black and she just looked at me like I was insane and walked away. It worked great so your mom gave you some serious comedic skills. Yeah I think she saw that. I had the community. You can use this. Yeah that's genius yeah. I didn't get that I got shift in the face. They got taught to throw a punch. And you want to know and you'll let her know the craziest. I'm literally in tears thinking about how funny this is. The craziest thing is that years later. We wound up working on a show together. Not For long it was like I'm not going to say what jobber where but like it was an episode of something essentially essentially. When she walked in the room I was like wow? This is really a moment for me like you hospitalized me. When I was a small child was up but you can be cool with much later to your point? You're billy became your friends. She and I did some scenes. That were awesome on this random job together and then we've never seen each other since crazy. Yeah I. It's it's weird. How people can come back together because kids really don't know how mean they can can be it can be so what they're saying or you know and so you kind of just got to forget? I just really don't want my kid to be the boy and I'm sure sure I've been the blinds them circumstances and I'm not even aware of it carry. It would be my nightmare to like eventually have a kid in here that they're the one being made to other what they're doyle from the Madison. Nothing not let's just not. Yeah so what is school for you. Ah What's it like going school. What's yeah what's it like going to Catholic school? I mean I loved it like a lot not really. Yeah 'cause I never knew anything else and I just and it was a pretty like looking back on it. I'm like Oh my God. I can't believe live during lent. We would go to go to church every single day of the week before school. We have to get there early. He's for forty days. Yeah and I totally. I forgot but I really liked. I crave structure. That's why sometimes it's an actor. It doesn't totally work for me in some ways. Because they need. I like to keep myself busy to myself. Then and also when I think of Catholic school especially high school I wanted to sending nations in San Francisco. It just taught us that helping people was the Numero Uno and during high school. When you sort of start to like develop l. up yourself in a totally different way catholicism wasn't as he didn't get beat over the head with it? You know there were people that weren't Catholic. That went to my high school goal. And you can choose to go to Friday morning mass or not and our religion classes one more like ethics classes. That's really interesting. I've never heard somebody talk about a a religious school experience with that much kind of freedom to explore. Yeah Yeah I mean. I'm sure if I went back now I would not feel that way but at the time I loved it I was the school pride person right and what it what do you think how does that education around service. How does that shape shape your life as as a kid I actually had? I played sports. I got up from basketball team. And that's why I mean my more Cairns at Mike Mall Cairns you can answer that question please. Thank you coach going. Okay coach Mike no I it. The best thing to ever happen to me because I wouldn't be an actor if I didn't get cut from the best team. It's just all my siblings. Were the most athletic. And I was not Maybe they needed to put you on like a wrestling team. Maybe maybe boxing team sure now. So basically the nitrite acting getting and I think going into college I I was having trouble being like. Oh can I be an actor and still serve people like this feels like the most a selfish thing to do is I sort of choosing between like the path of social work or something like that and acting reading going into college. How long have you been doing theater in highschool at this point I mean cut from the basketball team and then what and then I did a play at? Act which is a a great local theater but they haven't we doing and play about volleyball called volley girls and so they're like well. You're a good volleyball player. And not an actor so just come and see. See what I went in there and basically Chris Farley impression and they were like I don't know what that is but like sure you can teach them how to play so oh I did that and then a couple of plays my high school and I knew that I started auditioning for called us and I knew that I wanted to be an actor but couldn't give myself the permission because I felt guilty doing something that seemed at the time like such a selfish profession and now seems like the opposite of that that I just mean like there's a lot of good you can Do and especially with like how the world has changed. I mean your perfect example a best you have given yourself a huge platform via acting and I used it to really do a lot of good and also from my end I feel like some of the characters that I play. Let people see themselves where those this characters aren't on TV all the time and yeah so I feel very fortunate to be able to step into those roles and people seem to like the loop. Representation is a huge huge deal. And I think about an an I think in our community we have a lot OUGHTA conversations about how that looks and how that works and there is a real reality. That if you can't see it you don't know you can be it. But even past young women of color seeing themselves represented in hidden figures as scientists or girls seeing themselves represented as political leaders. You know whether it's in the West Wing or House of cards or Madam Secretary or whatever it really matters I think in career but it also matters an identity and It to be represented on television as a person you know as a single person or a single parent or person in the same sex relationship or trans person. It's it's like it's so important that people feel seen and I think we can lose that and now with with so so much digital connection we understand what that means to people because everyone gets to have conversations about the up. Yeah that's interesting it's all now. We're actually hearing voices of viewers viewers more so and it's also to that point of representation. Now we're getting to the point where it's not just about the struggle view. See the the happiness friends since with a single parent not just seeing the struggles of being a single parent. You're able able to see like the joys and the good and the bad and it doesn't have to be all about the struggle. Yeah which I love. It's like characters actors who are representing people who've been historically marginalized in society. Don't just have to play the marginalized person on the anymore. Yeah which is really nice. Okay listeners I'm GonNa talk to you about our sponsors but I I wanNA clarify for all the people all who are new to the work in progress audience high so glad you're here that we only work with sponsors that we personally believe in these incredible sponsors of the people who make our podcast possible. And I'm so excited that we get to work with people to bring you the content and I also just want to be clear. I'm never going to talk to you about brands that I don't believe event or brands that I don't use myself every sponsor that we approved for this podcast has been personally tested by our team. And that's why we're happy to talk to you about them today today. Oh how I love. Today's sponsor Bomba's did you know that sox are the number one most requested clothing. Adam in homeless shelters Obama's is on a mission to change that they created the most comfortable socks in the history of feet. Yes really that's a real thing and for every a pair of socks purchased Bomba's donates a pair to someone in need especially this holiday season. It's nice to know that the companies you're buying from our giving back so far Bomba says has donated over twenty million pairs of socks. I love that the socks are made from super soft. 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Please tell me that I'm not alone. especially if you stay. AM late making all your to do lists and trying to get all your shopping done one and three. US adults don't get enough sleep and lack of sleep can affect your cognitive functions during the day like learning problem solving and decision making but when you do get enough sleep you feel happier and your brain is sharper and that is calm comes then. It's the number one APP for sleep. You can discover hundreds of sleep stories narrated by a conic voices like lavar Burton and Nick Offerman and other content including soothing music from artists. Like Sam Smith Guided Meditations breathing exercises and so much more. If you go to calm dot com mm slash sophia. You'll get twenty five percent off a calm. Premium subscription over sixty million people use com. Join them today and get the sleep you you need tonight for a limited time. Our show listeners are going to get twenty five percent off. AECOM PREMIUM SUBSCRIPTION ADT COM DOT COM. SLASH SOPHIA COMES COMES WITH UNLIMITED ACCESS TO COM's entire library and new content is added every week get started today at Com dot com that C. A. L. L. M. dot com slash Sophia com dot com slash Sylvia. So so you go to Michigan What in you said you are destined for a bunch of college theatre programs like Y'all got into Michigan early so I canceled cancelled it ended up going down to Ucla Michigan and UCLA had this program that mine tire interview for Ucla La? Was I was talking to this woman about this nonprofit. I work for called not for sale which helps stop human trafficking and she was like well. We have this separate program. That's it's learning theater and also advocacy work and marrying the two towers choosing between that and this. BFA In theater. And Actually I. I had a conversation with a priest in confession on a retreat in high school and he was like listen. You have to make yourself happy before for you can serve other people so do what you really really want to do. Because if you you know you'll regret it and do what you WanNa do says okay. So so I chose Michigan also knew I was going to be an actor. I'd probably come tally at some point so wanting to experience a different part of the country and I went to Ann Arbor around the best for years that were so fun I loved it. That's awesome and so you went straight from Ann Arbor Onto Graham Right. Yeah ars kind of a crazy story there which I think is just so interesting and I want you to tell it I was probably hung over and my Friday morning class It was it was a screenwriting class but they had cast in the film department but they had cast actors from the Department to eventually be in the film second semester so to execs came in as I guess speakers to give notes on the scripts and they happen to be looking for this character called trouble and they were passing out of New York. LA and Chicago and couldn't find people that they wanted so then they gonNA fall deepen dirty story hell. Yeah okay. This is my younger years. Okay I want everybody to know that but what I went. They were like please if you want to see what. It's like to tape it on addition to all the girls in the classroom. We're like sure so. We you go the next day we tape. This addition and I brought my friend in connor to read with him. And we're leaving the audition a taping session and he was like you know what she's prettier. She's definitely going get it. You didn't do that great so you're not going to. Let's just have fun and like whatever and I was like. Oh okay okay well you are watching you know so. We went to my sororities day party and had more than a few drinks. And we're like well. She's blow off some steam. Some girl comes out at two. Am and you need to turn on your phone. And it's not a battery and she's a sophomore my sorority that I don't know and she's a plug it in so run back to the house a plug in my phone and it's the executive producers being like you have to book a flight now and I was like Oh okay but I'm like not so hammer a hammered. You're at a college party. Yeah I was in a sorority. I know trust me. Oh my so. I run to my younger years younger. We didn't oh man. I'm one Gabby on the Internet. Yeah so my buddies help me pick me up for the the airport the next morning I fly to La. Open my bag. But there's just nothing in there that I could wear to this audition. It was horrible and then flew lewd. La auditioned for all the executive producer. Sean Hayes which was cool and then Portland and then I flew back to Michigan went to school for a week February twenty first birthday and those living in Portland shooting the show so crazy. Yeah I. It's so weird. That timing is so similar. I auditioned for one tree hill. Three weeks after my twenty first birthday. Oh my gosh. And eight days later was moving to North Carolina. And it's so crazy to think that at twenty twenty-one they let us do anything I mean yeah like I look back and I'm like I literally did not know how to be a human and I moved across. The country was working working eighteen hours a day. All of a sudden out of nowhere having just come off of a college schedule where I was writing papers and now I'm making a TV show. And and I had an apartment and lived alone like what it was so crazy. Yeah was it an incentive to yeah to pick up and move to Portland Linden just be. Yeah I think I mean the biggest difference I feel like in those stories for us is that I was coming on a show where every was ten years old loom so they number one had like their own lives going on number two. We're like down to teach me and help me and we're like older siblings. AS OPPOSED TO BE F- I I mean they became my best friends like that yours is much. It's not only one and it's like Oh God. Should this actually be a reality show. Yeah I can't imagine and I say that with love like we can call each other that if anyone ever called one of my coworkers an idiot I would kill them but like we we laugh about it now and we'll sit when we're together and talk about how absurd it is that we were unleashed. We knew nothing like we were so naive. Steve Yeah Wow and then everybody had getting money at that age. I can't that's crazy me too crazy. Mike Co go stars. Were like whatever you do save your money go by giving me that sort of advice. Let's go party. It was don't spend your money on part you know they were really amazing. Wow I read this article where Terachi p Hansen was talking about how. She advised us all the young kids on empire and his like invest. Rest in real estate. Don't spend your money by art. Like don't buy clothes don't and I'm like man. Where were these people for us? Where were these people for that? So cool so what. What was it like jumping into that show who who is trouble like what was her vibe trouble was like kind of a homeless teen that could see monsters but didn't know I thought she was crazy so she comes into this world and they're like Oh no you're actually really a grim? You're like me. Let me help you and guide you which is sort of what was happening on the show you know behind the scenes was these people were like. This is a mark hit it you know. I knew how to act but I didn't know how to act on TV. So yeah. I mean it's crazy. I was thinking about grim recently because of this new job asking the cameras something and I was like. Wow it's so crazy that I know that now like that. I'm so aware of how to be honest. Set and help everyone out and communicate because it is a a bunch of moving pieces and if you get on the train it's runs a lot smoother but also no one can ask you to get on the train because you're an actor. Do you know this. This mentality runs it. They're like I don't want you to have to worry about camera because you're acting and I'm like I know but I also want this acting to be on on this on every single take I want to have the opportunity to go. It's an interesting thing because it has to be an ultimately free experience but it's so technical And when you think about it it's sort of like building a chair you know there are basic chairs that are fine and they do their job but then there are chairs that are pieces of art but a chair still has to hold upper body so they have to be technically architecturally sound and then they can as artistic as possible within the medium of holding a person up off the ground and I think about what we do that way and and yeah oh I remember when they when they give me my first mark and like for listeners. Who are the thing to talk about this going? What are they talking about? A mark is literally they put essentially like T. shape of tape on the floor NEON neon tape every actor has a color of tape so it basically becomes like dance for a choreography of the whole scene and the first time they gave me a mark. I was like what I do with the camera. System was your toes on either side of that. I was like okay got and now I can literally glance at a mark out of the corner of my eye and hit it. Not Looking talking walking backwards. I understand exactly where the cameras moving how to save time. Oh if we do this and we move from this place into this place on. That camera will save two setups and Matz. Let's get the day going and you become an expert at technicality and you almost don't even realize it. Yeah and it's so cool. Yeah because it gets so much more free once you know everything and can do it because you're not worried about that stuff anymore because it's second nature. Yeah this is. This is the first job I've really felt that on like. Oh Wow I know I can see that the that I need to wait for her to cross this before I the line. Yeah it's interesting and you really do you. That's how you become such a team player because we've all probably worked with people who have no interest in doing the technical side any favors. They're just like I have to be able to do. What's in the moment? But I find that so much more rare and and I love working with people who WanNa make the work as good as possible but who also know how how to do favors to the crew You know like even in in some of our scenes in easy like when people see to human beings having like a love scene together it so you have to be so and so so conscious of where the cameras and Mike. I don't think anybody who who watches watches. It would think that you and I were marking where the cameras were. Who Am I gonNA do? People talk about. I forget who I was talking to about sex soon's but they're not sexy. Everybody thinks sex scenes or like hot and steamy. And that's how actors fall in love with each other but it's like really technical and couldn't make think scary and you're like I hope I'm staying outside of the modesty things and it's actually not right. It's the most unnatural sex. You've ever actually right now actually sex but yeah well it's also a funny thing to sit down with somebody and be like okay. Let's go through the basics. How are we going to do this? What are we going to do? Who's going to touch you? Where is it going to go out? Are you comfortable of where our conversations are soon was so funny and you just have to do the. There's no there's weirdly like you have to throw all your modesty the out the window but you also double down respect and figure out how to take care of your co worker. Yeah yeah but it's like people are like. Oh my God. It's so hot and you're like literally. I'm trying to move my hair out of the way so that the camera gets their shot. And there's somebody talking to us but like that gets taken out in the edit and you don't know and it's just so funny it's so so so so funny so before we get into that show moving through and learning and kind of cutting your teeth on Graham. Did that start to inform for you as an actor. What kind of characters you wanted to play what you wanted to do in TV? You know what what sort of your revolution as an artist while you're getting to grow up on TV show. I sort of wanted to theater. I was planning on moving to Chicago and hopefully being like Steppenwolf sort of apprentice and then hopefully eventually living in a suburb of Chicago and being an actor like a theater actor and on this just went the opposite way I signed with someone moved to La Right after that and then fly back and forth for from Portland. So I like when I first came to L. A.. After Graham I started to realize that all of my assets in theater were not assets in the TV industry. My voice my hi how I handled myself confidently in a room. They would a lot of people would just be like. Oh she's just like I mean. I would go in to an audition into play a woman who's addicted to drugs and has like a dark past and I go in and I do the audition income out. I'm Andrew. Big Cash thinks you're just like a little rough on my. How do you play that character? Not Be rough like what they can go in and be like. Hey guys switch into this performance. Yeah so I didn't necessarily understand the like I have to please people in in the room and I didn't. I have never done that all. I connect with people in the room. But I'm not there to make you like me. I'm here to like make you like my take on this character. Yeah I can't be mean to someone always ask such a him anyway. No I get it I I have that too I think auditioning is the weirdest process in the world. I'm like listen if you WanNa get to know me and see if I'm a cool coworker. Let's go have a drink or like go grab lunch or coffee or something. Ah The room is not my place to to your point to please you into show you my hang out attitude. I'm just here here to do the job. And if I'm in the head space of the job I don't want to come out of it to have a chat. It's weird right right. Yeah if the purpose for me it should be to see if I can act edition snappy to see if I can if I can hold a conversation with you. I'm very intelligent conversation Asia. Please come on hello listeners. podcast you know what I'm saying here like. Listen I'm clearly very charming. Ask anyone who's ever worked with me with so so you're going back and forth. You're you're doing all of this and what's what's like coming your way. What's what's showing up for you? In general I'm just curious curious about how playing that character. What that begins 'cause that starts to sort of set a tone for you obviously in people's awareness of you so what starts to happen? Yeah I mean let's see I my first my first job after. That was two days on a movie and I'll tell you and I were today. Is this amazing female director and I was immediately. Oh Wow this is my a person how. How do I work with this person? Because she's so incredible and that woman's name Marja Lewis Ryan and shoes the showrunner of the our generation. You know so yeah so that was five years ago. You knew that I knew that I was like Oh. I don't know if I want to be you or want. Want to work with you. Or what. Because she was just so on top of it and she spoke she she also comes from a theater background so the short hand right right away was there and she just like saw me and got me and I see like a woman and a queer woman in her position. I was just like yeah. Fuck Doc let's can I get your coffee. I'll be your assistant on. We ended up working together a couple more times and I did a play with her last year which was amazing amazing. Tidy Saltzman is one of the best actors overworked with and then now we're doing our butts call and then yeah and so so obviously between Graham Elwood easy comes along and what I think is so fun. Is that when people ask about the show and they're so curious curious about how it's shot and it seems so natural and when I tell people that there's no script everybody freaks out the reaction is always. What are you talking about you know and and to talk about how Joe writes in outline for every episode so we know exactly what scenes were shooting? Although you and I added a scene gene for our characters which I'm stoked made it big you know there's this outline and then there are seen objectives so he'll write a little bit of dialogue and say you know I essentially need you to tell her. This isn't jeans to tell you that but it's really just us talking talking and it's also like hope to God you got get along with the Damn Person Zero Chemistry even friendship chemistry. You're kind of screwed. Yeah it would be horrible. We did really well considering during we hate each other so considering the bane of my existence immediately when I met you I was so nervous because Joe Join. I had been working on that up soda a little bit because we'll call each other in between seasons NBA. Hey what's going on in your life and I'll be this this and this news like okay okay. That's interesting because you could just connect to it more so the first season was just like I came on him. Hey sure whatever you want me to do like I was so nervous and thought it was funny Improv. I was coming from like a sort of thing and he was like stop doing that. It's not funny a and it's not good. You would never say that but I was like Oh okay and then he sort of started to get it anyway by season three Communist. I'll I'm thinking this person should maybe for your love interest and I was like Oh my God sexual work zone I show in Chicago. I'm like okay. He's fear Berge and I was like an actress works on show in Chicago. I was like are you kidding me. Such a fan hearing this for the first time I'm rushing on file bio you that. Yeah No of course. No I definitely watch. John Tucker must die so many and wintery hill and I was just like a fan of yours. So it's always nerve racking to meet someone that you're going to work with you know it's like this weird whatever and I I was like sort of freaking out walk into the restaurant and you just open your arms and give me a huge hug and all my worries just dissipate it. You just have this effect effect on people where you just say at least on me. We put me at ease and immediately. I feel like the best most confident version of myself. Thanks I mean you did the same for me because I have to say as such a fan of the show coming into a space that I respect with people who I think are killing it and having it be such a different medium and just going okay so literally. There's no script okay. Okay okay cool I I I was nervous too and I think something that was really helpful for me in playing Alexandria Joe and I named her that because we're both obsessed with this documentary filmmaker named Alexandria back literally. She is my brain crush and she you guys should honestly look up her films. She made this incredible movie called frame by frame about the A P journalists the photo journalists who were working in Afghanistan shooting photos of the conflict while the Taliban had outlawed photography I mean literally putting their lives at at risk. These people are heroes. The documentaries insane then she did a doctor called on her shoulders about Nadia Murad. Who won the Nobel Peace Prize this year? She's an activist who has gone out advocating for these eighty community that has been essentially enslaved and is suffering genocide at the hands of Isis. I mean mean like Alexandria is the realist of the real when it comes to using your art to effect change and so thanks to our show and to Joe oh I got to sit on the phone with her for two hours and talk to her about every film festival. I've ever been derives her movies so I did not play it as cool as you fangled her. So hard But we talked so much about the process of making docs and what travel looks like in the schedules and she was so generous with her time and vulnerability ability to really talk to me. About what a toll it takes so at least going into our first scenes where you know my character. Alex is talking to your character. Joe Oh and giving you a you know editing notes I was like oh I know. Now I'm like I have all the technical terms for all of this and and a little bit of even directing on the last couple couple seasons of one tree hill was helpful because I would add it my episodes so the Combo of understanding Editing Bay and then understanding all of the stuff from Alexandria gave me things to talk about. But I still was like. I don't know how to do this. Is it good and you were so great. You were like you're killing. It amazing I was like this is your first season. This is bullshit tim every season I was like I'm not sure if can I say that he was a cat. The cameras rolling. Please speak like you were so good. Good in knowledgeable. You just come from a place. You're so well spoken in your life that I think when the cameras turned on it really just flowed. Naturally I mean mean strong Sweating I felt like it was a sort of like baptism and fire. Yeah but it was great and yeah. I don't know it's such a cool. It's such a cool experience to be able to do that. And I think Joe is so smart and you guys were so incredibly welcoming you know you and cure see and jazz whereas who had been doing these episodes together every season and we spent two days of social time together and I mean what I love is i. I don't know how to small talk for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet. Like people don't understand what I do with my instagram. I think now people are understanding from the podcast that I love to have deep conversations. I don't get the other thing I'm not like. Hey how are you. I don't I don't know and you guys jumped in and I mean within four hours like we were trading. You were stories life. Yeah God that was like right off the bat and that doesn't happen with everybody but when you really click with people and I don't know I think that that gave us spaces to go in some of the conversations like when we're at the bar. Joe gave us real beer and I mean he just let the camera roll dot dot conversation. I thought was the Rio twenty minute conversation. Maybe even more yeah He let the Cameras Roll for twenty five minutes and we just talked about life and I think the only objectives. We'd had a conversation when we were all. Oh hanging out over dinner and I'd said something along the lines of my observation about how when someone needs alone time. It's not time away from you. It's just time alone and Joe was like that thing you said I want you to talk to her about that but figuring out in terms of this break up and make sure you talk to her by your ex girlfriend so she knows you're gay too and I was like that's all my direction. Okay here we go. It's so scary. But it's so fun. Yeah it is it's so freeing and what makes it so scary I think and I would say easy has had the biggest impact on who I am as an actor than any other job because it really is. Oh just play like you have to just be really free. And that's the thing including an audition. You can't try to guess what the other people want. You hear that a lot we also also have to show them what you bring to the character like a lot of it. Is You any given circumstances so easy. Sort of top me. That 'cause watching I was like. Oh Oh the most interesting parts are when you're released of what you think is going to be a perfect thing. Yeah and not having dialogue to stick to when when you do have people who are good and who are really capable of showing up and being vulnerable even in the face of that feeling scary not having dialogue I think is so freeing because you're not subconsciously married to where the scenes GONNA go So you really get to see it unfold and yet it has certainly changed the way that I think about certain things I I was on I was away with some friends recently. And my buddy Max is also an actor and he was getting ready for this really really important audition and I was like. Let's let's break it down. And he was like what are you talking about. I was like dude just this like I. Don't love getting ready for my own auditions but this is my spiritual gift deft like. Let's do this and we pulled this scene apart and I saw so many things in particular where he had to go because I know him and I know what he could bring to it and I. I saw him at a barbecue actually yesterday and he was like they're bringing me into test on and I think about that stuff differently since our working experience too bad. Yeah I also love that I love people. I Love My coaching positions. Yeah she might be better at that than than actual because it allows us all the play with none of the pressure. Yeah when I can help someone else. Get ready for an audition. I'm like Oh my God. I'm so good at my job. I just the pressure is so overwhelming and has such an affect mcdon- like your entire day if you really want something it's terrible okay. So that I wanNA talk to you about because in in the history history of our friendship. I know how much you wanted. The l word you talk so much about this when it came up I was like it's your show it's meant to be I fucking know I was like I'm having a witchy moment. This belongs to else. We'll get this I don't know and you wanted it and there's obviously a lot of pressure on when you really want something and you know something's right for you. So how did you surmount the pressure and going and get your dream job. Oh man first of all. It was something that I it could not stop talking about. It was on my mind all of the time. It was a consuming all of my thoughts and I couldn't stop word vomiting about how much I wanted it and then it finally got to the day I went in and I just I know the casting director pretty well and he John McCleary is a genius. He is the best casting director in Los Angeles in my mind and he makes you feel so comfortable to do whatever you want to do you as as many opportunities as you want to do them and I just went in and I had a blast. I mean this character is that's what you have to do. You really can't think she's not a thinker. So how's about her can lean. She's a former professional Ashley and now basketball not bad not volleyball. I don't think I could say okay. Okay don't don't tell us the secret. Okay leave them wanting more you know exactly but basically she did that earned our life and now is it just has zero. Structure is a ball of fun. Never stops moving and if she slows down at all she'll have to confront some staff some shame she grew up really religious kinds of. That's huge thing. There's a huge theme. That's kind of an interesting parallel. Yeah Oh yeah I mean. She grew up Catholic. I think there's a lot of differences but there's a lot of similarities. I think you're going to. You're going to see the show big outlets let's an elevated version of Jacqueline and a lot of ways storylines not really the same you know. My parents are really supportive of who I am and and I don't know Finley I don't know I don't know how much I can say. All right I like it. It's a teaser. And why why is it. Called Old Generation Q. What is the our generation Q? Well I think you know the original award. There's a letter L Q. I think I think this time around. It's a lot more inclusive. More Queer Queer call I think and not even like in characters there's search for queer characters and not. Just you know gay. When says but they're also margins really interesting interested in casting trans actors assist characters and she's trying to go above and beyond and be even more progressive than having a show that is inclusive and seeing faces? That represents a more people. She's trying to push push the new to a little bit further. That's super cool. Oh yeah she's a bad ass. Everyone is so awesome so happy to be in this club. I have is obsessed with the show. It's like a dream come true. 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You know looked into that but I'm sort of happy I didn't because it was like a protective in instinct. I think like oh it's still gives me the the thought of potentially coming out in high school like I didn't even and there wasn't a struggle and not for me but it was certainly really scaring college and then all that was happening and I got this job haven't felt like Oh God. I'm not going to be accepted by the industry. I'm not GonNa have as much opportunity if I come out. And it used to like every interview I would sit down and I just get like just so hot. Drought maintain. What if they ask me? Am I sex like Tom but I don't want to lie and I don't even know yet I'm really like a lot of it was like I'm just confused. I don't even know how to talk about it. Or what Leibniz years because I mean I feel like Gayer than damn straight but none of my relationships with men even my adulthood have felt fraudulent at all. So I don't know am I buying. I don't feel like that you know. I think I'll end up with a woman. But how do you say that not steal. Somebody's label or right or have have to like go back on it in the future. I was really scared about that. I'm somewhere on the spectrum. It'd be so nice. If instead of having to have such a specific label it could just be like what's your number like on the Kinsey scale. Yeah strong five. Yeah you like on the five. I'm like Mama Strong to you. Know Pervert great the meet somewhere in the middle. I mean our characters met in the middle of a dream but yeah it's like why not you know yet I get it I I I would imagine when whenever where you fall is farther from. What has been stereotyped as quote normal normal or average or whatever you're like what's this going to mean? Oh you know her the more descriptors you have to put on who you are sure. That could be used against you at scary and like it's already scary to be a woman like that's used against all the time it's also kind of great eight in a Lotta ways. Your new show is going to be great. Thank you can't wait. I'm so bad. And then what like with your her parents and family like they all just seem like the coolest people yeah great. I mean eventually talk to them about it. Yeah through like Red Hot anxiety. I like took my parents at dinner and I mean let's be honest. They took me out to her her. I was sitting there trying to work up the courage to be like okay. You know this is what's going on in my life and my mom started talking about like work and my dad were really interested in mid had gets his wallet and gets his and we kind of like our finishing shing up and walk out the door and my dad gets up and I was like wake on. He's back down and so this is going on this. Is I start like dating women. I hope you guys are chill. My it was really cute. My mom is just like love is love. Love is left. And she's such a sweetheart and she sort of knew. I talked to her previously. Obviously about a little bit. My Dad was like Oh. I don't care who you marry just as long as you don't settle Jews. Mary someone you really love because otherwise it's going to be super hard to raise a family if you don't really really love the person got so luckily moms just make sure that I don't really care sick. Great Yeah so it's been nice and they all met my girlfriend recently and it was. It was great. I love that I know I love. Oh you know my up. Yeah my parents. My parents are pretty cool. They called me after they watched our episode. My mom was like steam May and she was like. Do you want to talk about like no mom relaxed old it we we sold it it. I was like no. I'm I'm just looking to like data guy who's not an idiot and there's a lot of idiots around like Gimme some time but yeah I was very very Q.. You and and it was actually kind of sweet because my dad. You Know My dad's an artist He's a photographer. He worked in the industry for forty years. It's I grew up in a very queer diverse amazing community of of artists here in La. And you know in the eighties and the nineties like it was a real Roman and my dad was so sweet he was like I just think this would have been so meaningful I think about so many of my friends who were so mistreated by their families and people who really struggled to just be who they are and love who they love. And I'm really glad the kids have shows like the ones you guys are making like. It was like I literally of tears like it was so sweet. And it's an IT's true it's like you know I think about easy winning. Glad awards like it's a big deal to just let people explore who they are. Yeah and I'm excited for the new gig to do it. Yeah I think it'll be a little bit different which I think is great. Yeah and when you have a bunch of Queer characters you have more opportunity to new liquid him up before exploring not just the struggle with the queer identity and it nonstop bogged down and psychological. But just like we're lives and successful ones and happy ones and you know what comes out of that life just life with relationships yeah yeah ups ups and downs and joy and silliness and all the things these characters are especially the John Q. Characters. They're extremely approachable. Like I think people people will see themselves in Finley and I don't know if that will be a totally positive thing you know it'll be like I think there will be a mirror. Held up a a little bit and a really exciting way. If that makes sense I love that. That's super cool. Well I have a final question bran I think from the outside for so many people who are doing cool things in the world can look like you have everything figured out near Nia but I in all my experience everyone is working on something or trying to figure something out and I'm curious at this stage edge you know you've it feels like you're really on like the steady climb and it's so special is your friend to watch and I'm curious what feels feels like a work in progress in the midst of all this great change to you right now I think right now. My relationships are working progress. I think I think a lot of my friendships when you start to get really busy like with the shower in a relationship I think sometimes you forget what grounds you you a little bit and you forget to pump love and time and energy into your friendships. When really at the end of the day those those were is have kept you afloat for the for me at least the last ten years so I think just time management and giving love there and also? I'm working on listening. I think on this particularly I have so many incredible people to lrn from and I think I already know. They're going to change my life and I just want to be mindful and listen and learn but so cool. What's your targets? Oh my God Don't answer is that like a finale. No not at all I mean. It's it's constantly evolving. Having you know I think right now for me. It's it's figuring out. I'm pretty clear on what I want. uh-huh and what I realized is I've my entire adult. Life has been about making so much compromise for work or having to move somewhere. I don't WanNa move or being away or whatever so I've I've been trained to make the best of any situation because I liked to be happy or at least try to be and I think when I'm working on right now. He's trying to figure out when something that's close to what I want but not what I want shows up to not settle for it or to not bend my desire or my standards to accommodate for something that maybe isn't all the way there yet to to not get so invested in the potential of something because as an optimist. That's very easy for me to see potential and go. Yeah that's going to work. I can water that. Yeah rather than really saying no no only what is big enough or right enough deserves to be in my space whether that's from a relationship whether that's from my next project you know not taking taking or settling for what's close but really holding steadfast to what I deserve to be right. Well Okay I have one more question. Okay bring it I. I have asked you this before but I think a lot of people my aged that are my friends. Love you so much and compliment. You threw me. I always forget to tell you. I'm sorry really. Concrete things not just like oh I love for on instruments like wow that muller video was really helpful for me to see. I'm so happy. She did that and really concrete things. I think you're amazing and an inspiration but my question is for all of us like you know sort of starting out and the the younger people in their twenty s how do we start then advocacy and activism. And where should we start and helping people feel. You've done a great job and it feels really big and really scary sometimes so we think it is big in his scary. I think it's really important to know that you're never going to have it figured out and there's never going to be like the place that you arrive and then it's done it's like we don't do the women's March and then everything changes it requires consistency. And I think that in especially I think about you guys. I think about like ten years ago. Oh being being now like if I were twenty six you guys have grown up with the Internet in a different way like I've been part of its evolution. It's happened to me in real time like this is just the world that you live in and so I think about how subconsciously that can affect Dr expectation that things turnover very quickly. The news cycle is changes. Instagram always refreshes whatever but advocacy isn't like this immediately sexy thing. It requires more of a long commitment but the thing that excites me about it and the reason I actually do think it's the most inspiring place to be is. Is it really. We're all in this together. We're running it together. I'll hand you the baton hand me the baton. Sometimes they take all the batons good it. You know saying I got got it. I got it sure I can do it but I think that the thing that is the most important is to go. Oh this is going to require some time. But it's going to be the best time I've ever invested did and then start helping. The helpers. I think everybody needs to figure out I talked to. There's this great author Glenn Doyle and we talk about this a lot of sacred Ridge. We're like the thing that literally makes you enraged like children. Dying in cages makes enraged injustice makes me enraged abuse against the queer community abuse against against communities of color like make me enraged women. Being assaulted at work makes me enraged that is sacred. That is like my Joan of ARC. Shit where I'm Mike. I'M GONNA put on a breastplate and pick up a sword and like go in and identify those things and then look at. Who's doing the work you know even and when you think about something like instagram? It's a social media tool for pictures fine but it can also be the window into advocacy follow advocates follow change makers follow people who are leaders in communities of color and communities of women and in the Trans Community Start Cure Rating. Not only your feet but start telling the algorithm what you're looking four so that your explore pages full of advocacy and not like lip gloss. Yes that's possible and you know when you have questions look to people who you think are doing right right so if one of your friends says that the now this video that I did with those other people about the truth things in the mall. Report is helpful. Follow now this start looking at the at the start looking at the organizations they work with follow those organizations figure out. WHO's doing cool shit in your town like BLDP WR's my friend? Kendrick Trek Sampson's organization. That's based here in La. They are incredible. Like I'll take anybody to a meeting anytime you I mean. Yeah you come to conferences with me. By the way like people who listening I just have to say the level of nursery things. I'll call Jacqueline. It'd be like do you WanNa go to this institute and she's like yes and I'm I'm there. We literally put on suits and like go to these things with no books and take notes. And I'm like I feel so seen I love you. You're my sister for life. It's really important to just start to show up. Yeah and also to start getting into the nitty gritty like read the articles. Don't just read the headlines Get in there and and if you can commit ten to fifteen minutes a day to research your whole life's GonNa Change wrote. It doesn't have to be that big and the last last thing. That is the most important thing that I need you. And all of your friends and all of like the homeys who in my world or like in the younger end of my friends friends spectrum in your peer group. I need you to vote. Yeah like I need you to vote. Because young people don't vote like old people and old people are voting out of spite and young. Some people are voting out of hope. We're voting for the world. We want to create and we need to be out voting. The people who are going to die and leave us with the problems they created Ya. Aw I actually don't think we don't have to worry as much about like the twenty five to thirty S. I think we need to worry about the kids. That aren't in college to twenty to twenty five twenty six totally. You know just out of college starting their job and don't feeling the effects yet but I will be out there with you. I know it's so fun so so find your age age advocacy groups yeah sacred rage help the helpers because there are people who know how to do this better than us like I was I who's in Newark recently and I. This is the craziest thing I've ever going to say out loud but I got to spend some time with Gloria Steinem. Then invited me to her home. I got to spend more time with her and literally. I was like if I get hit by a bus when I leave here. It's honestly going to be fine like I'm ready. It's fine and I had so many questions for her because I learn from all of the learning winning. She's already done but she said the coolest thing to me. She was like listen. If I died tomorrow you would figure out how to do everything I've already done and I was like okay and it reminded me that as much as we need to look and we have to create like we're doing we have to create these talking circles that move through generations and move through different communities to make sure we know how to advocate for each other. If we dedicate ourselves were already on the path. We're GONNA make a difference so it doesn't have to feel so so insurmountable. Or scary that it paralyzes you into not acting. Just show up show up shut up listen to the wise ones and then you become wise. Yeah mostly I love you so much I love. This show is executive produced by me. Sophia Bush and Sims Arna. Our supervising producer is alison. Bresnik our associate producer producer is Caitlin Lee. Our editor is Josh. Wendish and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. 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Warm Regards

07:42 min | 11 months ago

Updates and a new season coming in 2020!

"Welcome to warm regards conversations from the well. I don't know what it is. Warm regards regards. What are we? What have we been up to lately? I sense there is some change in the air. Ramesh what about you. Yeah you know. We've been having these conversations from the frontline to climate change but I think we're gonNA need to Switch up our tactics. which is what we're doing a little bit? We've got some ideas Bruin. Yeah so from the very beginning we have always had this goal with warm regards of telling the unexpected stories injecting. Some real heart and empathy into to the conversation about climate and really humanizing the science of climate change humanizing the people behind the science and uplifting the voices who are the most affected by climate change and none of that is going to change that still a core of our mission but when we first started this podcast few years ago. There weren't really any other climate podcasts in the ecosystem and since then we've been joined by some incredible other voices. Climate podcasting is actually a thing. Now which is really exciting and with any project. It's good to kind of take a moment. Take a breather take stock and decide and what are we trying to do. And what is the most effective way for us to do that right. Yeah and now that there have been so many other voices that have entered this. And it's like you said it's great. 'cause is people need to hear a variety of messages variety of perspectives on something as complex and as big as climate change. You know we really wanted to make sure that we approached this. The project that we were bringing our best to the table that we were bringing our unique perspectives to the table and bring our strengths to the project. That's what we've done on with a little bit of this break. I know it's been awhile since we've put anything out. We took that break deliberately to really make sure that we were headed in the right direction that we're focusing in the right places in remission Arab scientists but we often have tried to expand the scope of this podcast beyond the sciences. Originally we had journalists is part of our team and the rotating hosts that have been part of the show have changed over time and through that time. We've also heard from our listeners and one of the things that we often hear is is people want to hear more of what we already do well which is to have you know hard raw honest and real conversations about climate change with a diversity of experts. It's a non experts but we also have had people who've just wanted more content about how the climate system works or how climate policy works a little bit more of the nuts and bolts. And as we work our way through this podcast. We've often had to kind of check in with ourselves and try to figure out you know what are we. What are we trying to accomplish? Your who is our our audience. Are we reaching that audience as effectively as we can. And these are all good conversations to have if you're trying to do outreach or communication project while so we think that this has been a really valuable project we think we can take it to the next level with a new focus and so we're going to be shifting to a new model here on the podcast where every season we're going to approach. Climate change from a particular theme and our first theme is Ramesh. Our first theme is data. All is way cooler than it sounds. Sounds probably for those of you who have followed Jacqueline twitter. That should provide some clarity around her somewhat cryptic tweet that she made a few weeks ago where she highlighted data from Star Trek the next generation care there the data on viewership are yes. So we're going to be really wrestling with data as an idea but we're really going to not just talk about graphs and charts. What we WANNA do is take that data and really humanize that data? We want to make sure you understand what goes into collecting that data. We want you to understand who who is collecting that data. We want you to understand who that data is affecting and what those data looked like on the ground. If you imagine a climate Emmett graph that is influencing some people's decision making process or if we have all this data why do so many people argue about it or what are those arguments. What's the history of campaigns that have deliberately tried to create an atmosphere of uncertainty or doubt around the data? Or what does it even mean to communicate uncertainty about data affectively. So within the data will be doing really everything that I think we do. Well on the show but we'll just be doing it within a really focused framework. We'll be still doing all of the things that we've always done on. The show will be having heartfelt conversations. Exploring the unexpected angles on how climate change affects people. Whether that someone who's experiencing it in your backyard or someone who's studying what it's like whether decisions are being made about data that affect your daily life what what are the dramas in the inside scoops in back stories behind. Different data controversies. We're going to be covering everything within this broader framework of data career having these conversations thinking about this idea of bringing theme to the season we all immediately glommed onto this idea of data because there are so many different different ways to look at it. So one thing you is. Our listeners. Shouldn't be worried about is that we're just GONNA be highlighting. You know one scientific study. After another scientific. It took steady. We WanNa make sure that there's a mix of science and humanity but we're just seeing it through data. Yeah exactly you know so. Much of the climate crisis is a response to numbers and wiggles on graphs those numbers and wiggles on graphs came from somewhere somewhere. And we want to help you understand where they came from what the challenges are in generating those graphs wia graph is difficult to Parse. If you're not an expert or even if you are all the creative ways in which people have tried to communicate data in other ways and also just what does it mean when your life visit data point or when a data point is saying something that affects your life because every single dot or line graph tells a story and this podcast is always always been about storytelling and so we want to talk to the people behind the graphs. We WanNa talk to the people who are affected by the graphs. We WanNa talk to the people who may not even understand or believe the graphs and we want to bring those conversations to you so to our listeners. You want to keep an eye out. I want to keep an ear out in twenty for this new structure around warm regards and were hard at work getting that season. Ready for you so that you can really get the most from us and you won't. We'll have to wait very long long. Correct it's almost two thousand twenty so yeah so keep all eyes and ears out for it. We're really excited. We can't wait to talk to you again. See you next year. We're excited to announce that we've been nominated for best green. PODCAST I by iheartradio. Congratulations to our fellow nominees. Climate one drilled sustainability to find and terrestrial definitely. Check them out as you wait for warm regards to to return the encourage you to subscribe to all the amazing climate podcasts out there and to keep the climate conversation going at work and at home

Ramesh Jacqueline twitter Emmett
EP68: The Bachelors Jacqueline Trumbull

Let's Talk About It with Taylor Nolan

1:19:26 hr | 1 year ago

EP68: The Bachelors Jacqueline Trumbull

"Hello. And welcome to. Let's talk about it. With Taylor Nolan. I'm your host, and I'm very much cited today's episode because she's a dear friend of mine and feel like not everyone really got to get to know her when she was on our season of the bachelor. But I also have some exciting news before we get into today's episode. I will be hosting the first ever like specifically. Let's talk about it events alive podcast event here in Seattle. So April thirteenth, I'll be hosting a live podcast with some awesome women here in Seattle who are just like bad asses and just doing bad ass women things. And so we want to highlight them and have them onto share some of their story, and the whole theme was going to be to kinda like feel all of our feelings because I got a lot of them. I know you guys got a lot of we all got a lot of feelings and the. Difficult to process and just want to help create a safe space for everyone listeners of the podcast people who just know me from the show people who never heard of me before. And just have a lot of feelings want some support and wanna find some community. So I really have loved hosting this podcast with you guys for over a year now, and you know, it can be while it's meet with super awesome people, and how these awesome conversations it also is a tad bit isolating from you guys. And so I really want to actually like see your faces and here, you know, what you're going through and actually have a conversation with you guys. So definitely if you're in Seattle if you're in the greater Seattle area, definitely come on by you can get tickets. The link is in my bio on Instagram. Sophie Goto at team Ohka the link in my bio will be too and for a little discounts. You can use tame Ohka ten to get ten dollars. Off for VIP and soon VIP we're going to have some food and just like some time before the show to talk, and it's going to have more like an intimate hang out. I gotta say I'm going to be honest about feeling all the feelings. I'm very nervous to do this. I excited to meet all of you. But I've never I've never hosted an event before. And so I'm learning all kinds of things I've done live podcast before. And I've been guest on other live podcasts, but not ever done one. That's just me. So it's a whole new experience for me. And I'm just I'm looking forward to actually sharing it with you guys. And you know, I know all the stress in the anxiety of putting it together, we'll pay off when we're all in the room together feeling our feelings, and creating a sense of community. So I'll Eva that I'm excited, and I hope you guys come on. Sleep very much wanna meet you guys than just extend these conversations. So again, that's April thirteenth and link is in my bio on Instagram actually, put the link in our episode notes here as well. So you can check it out there. But to switch gears today's episode. I absolutely love this check. We literally will face time for hours and talk about everything. Like talk about relationships. We'll talk about mental health stuff. Just really nothing's off limits talk about sex, and she's amazing. And I really want you guys to get to know her a little bit better. And yeah, I don't really know. How else introduce her? But she's just amazing. And we should get started with it. Now, why wait any longer? So thank you so much Jacqueline. Welcome to the show. And I'm so so excited to finally have you on? So welcome Jacqueline to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I've wanted you on like for so long and Amera when I watched John Ari season. And I was like she seems like someone I'd be friends with. And we are friends. Yes. And interesting it talking in this podcast format. I know right. It's it's always interesting. Like, you do watch the people on the show, and I always try really hard to not judge people based on what's shown and like there were definitely people from her season. Then I was like, oh, yeah. I think it'd be friends, and then I was like. I don't think. So I'm really glad that my judgment worked out well with you and that. We've been able to publish friendship. And honestly when people ask me now, they're like, oh like who? Do you keep in touch with from the show, and blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, you know, like I have my good girlfriends from my season. But like also Jacqueline is the bomb. I'm like I fucking love Jacqueline so much. I'm like people don't know like amazing. So I'm really glad to have you on. Finally. Thank you. Yes. So we there there's so many different topics. We could talk about, but I think maybe to kind of start off you have just on their process that I think a lot of our listeners can relate to and could maybe take some advice on I know. Hurting from a new year environment. Just okay. So some context on this episode today we were supposed to record like an hour ago. And then my neighbor cleaning upstairs had a cleaning service upstairs and was so loud. And so we had to push back the recording like an hour because we didn't want any like background noise. But I we've got to count for the fact that Jacqueline's in an apartment in New York. All kinds of sounds. Yeah. It's either this frenetic saxophonist or someone singing show twos. So that's. Bedroom because you'll get the show tunes. So yeah, not not a terrible problem. But I think like I was saying you've gone through a process that I think a lot of listeners can relate to and could potentially some advice on and I get a lot of questions about as well. So you just got finished with the process of applying to grad schools, and I think a lot of people when they watch it on the shell. They thought that maybe you already were in grad school or that you already were like a psychologist to clear the air on that. And. Sure. Yeah. I was not not in grad school. That's the air here. I mean, you know, the conversation. I don't it's not that. It's the edit directly. Lied to anybody. I think is this that, you know, people filled in the blanks the assumptions in this context that's always lacking. When you want a TV show like that. Yeah. Essentially, it was a conversation with Ari where we he's talking about doing long distance. And I was like why would we be long distance? He said we'll because you're New York in a program. Like, no, I'm not that's a few years down the line. But this is a part of my life, and we would have to account for that as a couple, and it is six years. So why people thought that I was the program at the time like I was leaving to go back to my program. When in reality, I left for a combination of my job wanted me back, and I was not going to marry are in that certain. Yes. Well, and I think it's for me that like, I don't usually go back and discuss specific scenes in the bachelor, but that scene in particular felt very empowering. And I felt like very proud for you to stand up for herself like that. And I think just kind of in a way that tone for like how to still be in a relationship. But also prioritize your career goals and not have your entire life and career revolve around what your relationship is going to be. But instead take different approach and say, you know, yes, I we can enter into this relationship. But also know this is where I wanna go in my life. Yeah. I mean, it's been so like I'll get into wear him in my career in a second. But by lovely for bulbs around my career, which is I haven't been able to fully vocalized that yet because I hadn't been proud of my career haven't been I haven't been making much money. I hadn't been in school. You know what I mean? Like everything I've been doing have been these baby steps for getting into Chris. So it's not like I walk around New York City insta- lettuce carrying a coffee. You know? Been career woman. Still you got goals. Right. Well, so the reason that my relationships were all around the career is because my location is completely up to fate in like, I just haven't been able to meet anybody and know that I could take that relationship to it's like, you know, maximum conclusion. While knowing I will have to leave wherever I am or or I just won't know, and that's been really frustrating. But that's about to change. And why is that Jacqueline? I mean, it's amazing that we scheduled its call for today because when we scheduled at this had happened. But I mean, I got into my dream school yesterday. Oh, yeah. Oh my God. God. Yes. It's real now. Like, yeah. I know my fate. I know where moving a. Yeah, I am leaving early. Yeah. I had gotten into another program about two weeks ago. But I didn't really want announce anything because I still waiting on this school. And the school really tortured me it's worth it. I'm so excited for you. I remember talked to go and it was. Yeah. You'd gotten into the one school, but it wasn't your dream school. And just. The process is not an easy one will say that. But that's amazing. Thanks. Holy crop. I mean, you've been doing it. You've been this whole process started when back in like five years ago, but like actual application process. Yeah. Materials were December first. So I'm probably I I applied to. Sixteen. I I did the work of eighteen applications about twelve days. That's just how he's done work as two months to do it. And I was like no I'm not going to stretch out and be miserable. What I could do in two weeks. Like an extremely miserable two weeks. Yeah. I did. And it worked out things. Oh, I am. So proud of you. Thank you. It's wild. I mean this when I say dream school. I don't just mean dream program. I mean, this has been my dream school since time that says, I was born we my moment. Sister wins undergrad there. It's like, it's huge. And I got rejected there for undergrad, and it was like a huge deal. And I always said, you know, when the school reach out to interview me that I'm not don't schedule. But I was thinking like God is either a poet or asshole wants to like bring my life around in this beautiful story or break, my heart with the same hammer. I guess it's former so Thang. Okay. I didn't know that before we started recording snow. I'm like, so sidetracked. I'm like, oh, my God, we need this. Okay. So a little bit of a side note here, I feel like people are always asking me about like what books I'm reading. And you know, how often I read and honestly, it's so difficult to find the time to sit down and read a book, which sounds so sad, and I hate, but I feel a lot better about it. Because now I've been using blankets. And they're wonderful sponsor the podcast that I want to share with you guys. They take thousands of nonfiction books and condense it down into just fifteen minutes. So you can read or listen to a book, they're literally like eight million people using blankets right now. It's massive has a growing library from self help. It's a business to health history. So many things that you can learn on here, and it just makes it so much easier. When you're on the go, and you can get all the main points of the book really quickly without actually having to read the entire book. And then they also have audio features that make it so. So easy. You can finish like four books in a day while you're kind of on the go, and it's a great way to continue your education. I literally I read the Michelle Obama book becoming and it was amazing. And was so, you know, again, there's just such a long list of books. I wanna read and catch up on Bernal. Brown's new stuff breathing the wilderness. Still have not had a chance to sit down and read yet. So blink gift does making it super easy to get all that content and to keep keep going on that personal development. You know? And right now, you guys you guys can for a limited time get a special offer from blankets. That's just for you. Guys. You go to blankets dot com slash Taylor to start your free seven-day trial. You know, how many books you could read in fifteen minutes in seven days. That's a lot. I would take some notes maybe you can on the go. But again, that's blankets. Spelled B L I N K. I S T. Bo. Linkage to dot com slash Taylor to start your free seven-day trial. Again, that's blankets dot com slash Taylor. Get to read it. I mean, it's a new year. We're going to start some new healthy habits here. And again, thank you blankets for being a great sponsor, the pod. And now we can kinda get back to our topic of the day. I guess I wanna talk a little bit then because. The process that you went through to get to this place now was pretty difficult. And I think a lot of people struggle when they're going through the application process and not just in the sense of like, you know, oh, making sure I have all my materials, right? And making sure that, you know, I'm scheduling news things on time. And all that. But the like emotional kind of rollercoaster that you go through when do this is so real. It was it was hard. I mean up until this past week. I mean, I wouldn't say that I was depressed because I don't use that word lightly in hope though, I have like a very long history of depression. And so. But it was like I felt kind of dead inside. And I say that sort of sardonic like it. I just was walking through a little bit numb afraid to sink about anything because every option was so terrifying knocking was so terrifying. Going out of school terrified to actually love the other school, but it wasn't a good financial situation. So it was just practically very scary going to the school that I actually got into his very scary because after move on. But it was like not knowing my fate not being able to date Nabi decorate my apartment, you know, what I mean just like smiling. Legs for so many years. Yeah. That like state of limbo is so difficult to be in and it creates so much anxiety. But like the crazy thing about it is even when like we think we have our life planned out like we're still living in limbo, just under this false sense of comfort and instability, you know, because could change any moment. Yeah. You the only real the only thing that made this limbo really real is that like if I had been in a relationship that was yearlong with somebody that I was in love with and then got into this program. I'm almost positive I would have broken up with the person who gone his program long distance. And it's pretty amazing to know. You know, like when I went on the bachelor actually felt a little bit different because it was two years. I guess maybe that was like a year are in. I would be together for like a year and a half. Now, we would be like married or engaged that that would feel more. Solid but other than that like any other relationship. I just I hadn't been able to fully engage in and now I'm like moving somewhere for five six years in. Yeah. So so my priorities are shifting. Yeah. Dating and being in grad school. Whole other ballgame. Yeah. Moving south in like, I don't know really tasted southern men in a very long time. Hopefully within your program and within the university, there's people that are also, you know. Culturally diverse school. But yeah, I know. I'm like my program was very different. Mine was masters gonna be peach peach peach team program, very different. But yeah, I mean, I started off in a relationship and then a single bit. And I definitely have the opposite problem that you have like I very much struggle with prioritizing career over relationship because more frequently I'm the I'm the partner to rearrange things in my life to be flexible and easy going so that we can have quality time. And so that we can really focus on the relationship. And then that partner gets the, you know, my partner, then gets the support focus on their career and do those things. So that's how that happens to women. I know, and that's why I'm like, I admire you so much for anything. You're so strong. And I'm like, I'm like, that's awesome. That she's. This. I mean, look if I if I had more faith in in. I don't wanna say in men, but like Indian relationships than maybe it'll be different, but I just have all relationships and fairly quickly. And so I don't know how to prioritize men over anything. But is what has been your longest relationship? While it was often on long distance over time period of three and a half years. But we were not insistently together for very long chunks at a time. Yeah. So and then another relationship that was like four or five months there any so really really brief relationship history for you know, Friday rhythms. Do should we get into those reasons I think we can you know? I think okay. One of the reasons is I of moving every two years. And until I got to New York. I knew that. I was like I like when I was in Charleston. I wouldn't date anybody seriously because there was absolutely no way. I wasn't going to New York. So yeah, prioritize got to New York tried to seriously date for the first year. Even the first two years. I had one relationship that was the former is very brief. But that was because I ended it. He was very serious about me. After that. You know, I mean, it it is difficult to date in the city. I think it's devoted anywhere. And by the time in oh, my third year here came I was like, wait a minute. I shouldn't be dating anyway moving again. Yeah. So that always takes precedence. I also have never found relationships to be comfortable. And so it's always taken the person to tempt me into a relationship rather than relationships attempts to a person. So I don't tend to. Be very flexible in my type. Yeah. Of man. I don't tend to be very flexible in like how I date. I definitely expect to be. Wine and dine thing. Like seduced because because my single life is really rich, and I had I have a really active social life. And so the idea of settling into a relationship in like watching TV every night or being comfortable, or you know, that's very it's tempting to me. And so. Lot man's that. I'm I'm prioritizing excitements over support. And I still think I don't think you relationship has to be one that's on the couch from wash neck watch ramp. Yes. And then you can still be very intentional in the relationship that you create and if you do find a partner that you know, has a very rich single life as well in staunch to maintain some of that that could be an area where where that would work. I do think it's interesting the needing to be kind of like wined and dined in one in that the duck Shen into a relationship because it's almost like I don't need this. So you have to make this look really good to me for me to even entertain the idea of this. And I imagine that for you part of like the wine and dine is and the to-do seen is like a lot of that chivalry coming in. And I think I don't know that we've actually talked about this yet. But it was something I talked about with Liz who does vox media's consider this and she's listening. Yeah. I was just birthday party last night. Yeah. I'd never met her. But I would. Yeah. Yeah. I thought you were there gray on the pot as well and doesn't here to make friends podcast and love both of them so much but loses great. And we we spoke about a lot about feminism. And part of that was about like this whole notion of chivalry. And I shared that. Like, my partner now has really challenged my feminism because like heart of me really wants that chivalry as well. Like, I want you to pay for the full amount of dinner, and I don't even wanna have to ask like you wanna split to pay. Yeah. There's a huge part of me that like doesn't want that at all. And he has really challenged me to be like, you know, if we want an equal partnership, and if we, you know, if we're feminists, you know, then we should be splitting these things and financially. It's been a huge conversation. But even actually when he was just here, we we had this incident over his jacket, and I was really cold. And when I get really cold, I'm like ants, my pants like don't have any time for anything. I'm just like, I need get warm immediately. And I'd have my jacket and saw all I can have your jacket and many layers to this and we've process it together. But essentially, it was kind of this like I felt entitled to what was his and felt like, you know, in a in a sense of chivalry. He would have just oh here take my jacket. Let me keep you warm where you know him. He's like go find your jacket or like. Go walk by depth outside and we'll get in the car and then you'll get warm. But yeah, I think it's it's interesting to consider some of these different things with being feminist. But also still kind of wanting that like traditional ISM of chivalry. Yeah. You know? I don't know how to say this, and I feel like people won't like this very much unruly. Hang my hat on semitism. I mean, I don't expect my I don't expect my ideology to rule over my partner in me. I I would rather have the dynamic that makes us personally happy. I have never felt. Sexism strongly in my life. And I think a lot of that is because I'm not sensitive to it. I am from like a matriarchal family. My mama was made more money than my dad was money in the family career has always been something that the women in my family have done in the men have respected. And so I like am my my mom and sister both very good looking. And I think very charming and have kind of wrapped like men have been wrapped around their peaking figures. So I've seen a lot of power in being. In being feminine kind of like using the the differences between men and women to buy vantage, not sort of Machiavelli and thing to say I recognize that. But might I guess my point is I was always raised to know that I would have a career that my career would be important to my spouse, and that would be completely unquestioned, and that's just sort of partner. I'm looking for. And I just don't I don't think I've ever we'll have complete zone drew has just haven't had a partner that is disrespected me to deep degree in than I realized how stream Lee false that statement ES completely false. Don't you don't do that. It was because I was woman. You know? I think he's he's. It was it wasn't anything specific towards gender differences. Yeah. There. There's just a lot of instances of sexism that I have experienced that. I haven't conceptualized in that way. Been that's been difference between a lot of other women in me in. I I don't think that they are wrong conceptualizing things that way it just doesn't. That's just not how I model it. I think it's a really good point the brought up just in terms of how you were raised because I don't think I mean for me that was not at all the norm. Like, my mom very much had to not had to buy an order for their relationship to work. You know, he was in the air force. And so Naro for her myself out even have a relationship, she kind of had to be at home, and how to make sure that she was going to be available because he was going to be on. And you know, two grown up with that. There wasn't really anyone in my life. That was the woman that was like, you know. Career is important. And you know, I can be a working woman and be with a man respects that and just wasn't wasn't really part of what I saw. And what was in my family at all? So this is interesting difference. It's amazing. How much of it's. That makes I do wonder if I will start to become much more indignant about sort of differences in gender roles when I become pregnant, you know, when I suddenly have childcare to think about and to see if my career takes a back seat, then because I'm already conceptualizing like, you know, I would be willing to be the part time parents assuming that my job lobby to that. But. I. But that doesn't feel that that kind of feels like a privilege to me at the same time. So it doesn't anger me. But for other women is really annoying that their careers. Always the one that is compromise. Will I think you brought up? I I'll say, yeah, I agree with you. I think it is difficult because on one hand I can understand that. But on the other hand like it is a privilege in a way. And it's not something that I that. I would personally be upset about. Okay. Time for a short little break. Here. We gotta talk about sleep a little bit. You guys know we have the amazing partner eucalypt so and their sheets. I'm just honestly obsessed with it's like it almost feels like a mix between like cotton and silk super soft and ultra light. And I'm always so cold every time I get into bed and so with Canada man, it's a bit of cult because he gets like very very hot. And it actually helps Kyle. Stabilize are sleeping climate. The lips are sheets are naturally temperature. Regulated and are actually three times more breathable than cotton. So it really helps create a comfortable sleeping environment for both of us. It's Hypo allergenic, and it's the stain -able about ninety nine point nine percent of the materials are recycled and reused in their production process, which helps firemen and they're like the most eco friendly sheets on the market. So she definitely check them out. You can go to you calypso home dot com and use promo code Taylor. And you can actually take fifteen percent off with free shipping on your entire purchase. That's E U C A L Y P S O home dot com and use promo code Taylor. For fifteen percent off with free shipping on your entire purchase. So definitely check them out. And now that we've talked about sleep weaking back to the show earlier in terms of feminism you've. Brought up that of using you know, the the differences that we have to our advantage. And that's something also that my current partner now has brought up and it was actually like. I wanna say was French women speaks French in like loves French culture. And all that. Yeah. He. Brought up a reference to some I think it was like French woman like a group of women, I rose article, and it was kind of around when I guess the metoo movement was happening, and you know, just kind of this popularization of Eminem that I think comes in waves throughout the decades where the whole emphasis of their of their statement was that men and women are not equal and that they don't believe in feminism. Because women have a lot of other things that men don't men have a lot of things that women don't, and we can all use these different things to our advantage. And I've read things even long lines when people that are sex workers that are women and people, you know, who are answers and whatnot. Who are like? Yeah, I get to do this, and this isn't necessarily isn't necessarily a option for most men to be able to do this. And as I bring to the table. Different things and I'm going to use them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have complicated. I think that feminism is a very very broad concepts. That has started to be used in rigid way. I mean, I it saddens me when when women feel the need to reject sounded them or calling themselves feminists because they don't seem to jive with the current feminist movement. I mean can semitism. Timmy, just most basically means men and women should be considered in treated equally. But that doesn't mean treat it's the same. Like, you know of equal value importance in respect, and is something that seems obviously true. Yeah. Or at least obviously valuable as what we should strive for. So, but I mean, yeah, it seems like they're a lot of divisions within between people wanting to reject differences between the genders and other people insisting on differences. Because even with those differences. I still like. We can still be different, and we can still also be treated equally respectfully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't wanna be the same as men, isn't it sort of the point. I mean, we were championing female nece feminity, you know, in in in whatever it in that Senator that arises in us, Orrin invent whenever. So so the the more I think we insist these differences don't exist. The more I feel that Sunday can be a raced a little bit in sad to be. But I'm not I'm not really well enough. I haven't researched area enough Nanno exactly like where sex differences arise in in. How? Yeah. I would say you I feel like you definitely hone in on some that femininity. And like you have a very for those who've never met Jacqueline never been around Jacqueline. I think I think you do have a very strong like feminine presence. Yeah. Well, the not brings up the interesting question of how feminity defined are. We defining it archaic -ly that like, so it's it's very difficult to talk about these issues without falling into a thousand different pits. Yeah. I don't know. Like when I think of femininity, I think I'll ask you this to to describe wet feminine, the means to you. But I think like the reason I feel that I feel that in you is just like there's. A strongness there the warmness there's a competence there. There's. I don't know like almost and again even question that says, I think it of like I want to say that there's like a gentleness and strongness at the same time. And it's like, yeah, we have very much this engraved notion that like women are gentle and women's should be gentle is and I don't necessarily agree with that. But I do think that there are some really like beautiful things to be no woman. And I don't know. I just I feel like that presence when I am around GIO. Well, thank you. I'm very very proud of being senile in seven Hannity. I don't know how to define it. I start feeling. Like, I get very very hesitant every time. I would try to define femininity because it feels like I'm falling back in his gender role type wave to finding it. But that that's problematic. Sometimes it's not problematic. Another time. Why is that like a negative thing to feel like right beautiful like that? There's a gentleness or warmness or nurturing. Like, none of those things are negative. Right. Right. But it's hard because. Yeah. You don't wanna be like way to be exactly. Yeah. I didn't see us going. It means something different for everyone. And there's there's no right or wrong. But yeah, I do wanna get back a little bit too like relationship type staff because we are something you, and I talk frequently about and with kind of, you know, talked a little bit about the seduction part in needing become seduced into a relationship. How am I'm curious for you because in your life? There's been a specific emphasis perhaps on mental health. Use spoken about your mom being very strong career woman, and she's a psychiatrist, and so you've grown up with with that kind of language and perhaps emphasis and some curious like how how that's played a role for you like growing up around that. And how that's kind of impacted your relationships or how you go about them. Missile was always openly spoken about in my house. I would say knowing that all of my siblings have mental health issues. I would say that I was depressed off and on for about ten years. From twelve to twenty two and it would be like a full year of depression, followed by full year of like, I wouldn't say happiness, but okay news and then another full year of depression with two peaks at fourteen twenty two. So I mean, it was just always. I was never particularly ashamed of depression. I think in fact, I glorified it a lot. And that made it a lot worse because I was afraid of letting it go mighty thank you or fight it or one of that look like glorify it. I think because I I got I became pretty depressive in Adelaide scence that is the time when you know, you don't really know who you are your indentity is in flux, and you're starting to watch all of this media around depression around suicide in I think, I mistook that for depth. Like, I find depression for me being deep in. They're not the same thing. Yeah. So I I really I almost enjoyed being depressed. I I I mean, it was horrible. It. I mean, it it was absolutely awful to live with. It's not so much that I enjoyed the experience of it. But I I enjoyed it being a part of my identity. Yeah. I liked being depressed person way. And I would I'd notice that around the age of twenty three when I had been I was it was as healing like twenty three was my healing year. I went to Asia for a month in that actually helps things a lot of the biggest change that helped me leaving my career starting in psychology. But I mean, I had to move home career you ex design web design. Not yet. That was I mean that was like the source of a lot of angst when I was around twenty two. But I you know, because I was still kind of getting my bearings in like shrank myself. I I remember I had like a setback of some sort in all of those feelings were came flooding back. And I I remember feeling like I was home again like I was home into depression. And I realized that I was treating depression kind of like a baby in wet laundry like in wet clothes like it was something that was really precious to me, but that was horrible to hold. And I I realized that I was allowed to put the baby down in walk away from it. It really felt like I was walking away from a segment of my identity, but it was like a false identity. Like, it wasn't really neat in my depth didn't disappear. Just because my depression did in making that decision has been a big part of why I haven't than depressed sense. Yeah. There's like a really big. In in all the different kinds of phrases that we hear around mental health that one of them that we frequently is you are not your illness. And I think there's a really important separation that happens even just in terms of when we talk about people, whether it's related to onus or not saying like, you know, you are bipolar like, you have bipolar or, you know, you're a liar or you lied that you know, someone has gets a for Neha, they're not schizophrenic. So I think it's seems like very petty and small to call out that kind of a difference. But I think it makes a huge difference. In terms of how you conceptualize yourself as a person, it's very important onion. So I mean, this is to get into. But there's the DSM which is as you know, like, it, it categorizes labels. Yeah. So like study borderline percent sort of well in reality, you know, all there's nine symptoms in you only five of them to count as BP PD will not means that there's like two hundred some different ways like personnel types that can be in people are falsely saying like this is who I am my personality type, and there's a move now towards like a more dimensional model of getting rid of these labels in which I think is probably pretty helpful. I think that people do feel a sense of release in of being heard recognized for the first time when they get a diagnosis. Definitely. But I don't know whether that's good or bad. I mean because you know, I I remember when I would go for my AD medicine. My doctor was like you seem anxious. You seem like you might have Zayed's disorder. And I didn't think that I did. But I liked hearing that in thick way because it's. It's interesting because as humans, we love to be able to make sense of things we love to put things in categories. We love. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's really interesting. Because even when we talk about like the show and whatnot. It's like, yeah. You are kind of made into this one dimensional characters. So that people can make sense of you. And even when he said, you know, I don't know if that's good or bad. Like, I don't I don't think it's that simple nothing. I think is that simple in binary. And I think that there's always going to be things kind of on a spectrum. And I I think yes, there's a sense that, you know, by identifying as a certain thing or being a part of a certain category gives you a sense of community gives you a sense of dowels can give you a sense of purpose. All those things that I think can be really helpful to not feel alone. But yeah, I think there there's a threshold where that becomes like how you experienced of being your full identity and in that you can kind of lose yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It gives us something Google to you know, what? I mean what's been going on with the, oh, it's BPD. Let me out. Now, you have a road now. So that is good. But it's a false sort of security. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not surprised that we went to the DSM by. But I'm curious how growing up with this whole sense around psychology around mental health how that impacted. We already talked a little bit about how it's impacted like your identity. But then also like how that's happened within relationships. Like, I didn't grow up with any of what you grew up with. But even for me, I'm like, I don't want to date someone that hasn't done their work yet like. So I I can only imagine knowing some of the relationships you've been in where they're clearly has not been some work done of like how you go about like what you're looking for like when someone is kind of doing that persuasion and seduction of what that actually looks like. They were like multiple questions all that. So. I mean, I do really like somebody who can be open about his mental health is mind. Have you done just as interstate? Have you had that kind of experience? It's been very lacking. I don't think that the men I've dated have loved to go there, and the ones that have I think have been a little bit false about it. I, you know, immense seem to get very uncomfortable with that the person that I have very strong feelings for now is pretty open about it. But not necessarily with me all the time. I've heard him on podcasts. It's any his process with mental health has been like a big part of his story in his career. And I find that very attractive. I do think that there's been a part of me that's looking that has looked for men a little bit subconsciously who can take care of me. And I think that that has more to do with me being the youngest child now by a lot. So I kind of look for like, the father figure the brother figure, whatever. And so those men aren't as likely to be vulnerable. I don't know. I mean, I'm kind of spitballing here. Yeah. But yeah, I mean in terms of like also disinfecting dating I do over thank a lot. I'm very careful like, especially in fights, my mom. Here's basically everything men. Probably wouldn't love. They knew that. Now, I my mom's not a psychiatrist, but you know, for most of my life. That's how it's been like she's gonna hear everything or someone else. Who's gonna hear everything like my friends? It's just I'm I'm an open book. I'm gonna process details with my friends and family, and it's not like I'm talking shit about people or anything like that, you know. But it's just it's can be really good to just be able to profit that and share that in this as base with someone, you know. Absolutely. I don't know if men realize how much women talk today, friends, and their mothers, we have over this all the time. And I'm like, you not understand that you're going to deal with us with your next to like we can break up over this. But it's foolish. It'll come up again. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Time for a little break here. It's actually time to switch gears and talk about Roz we all use them, and they can be really difficult and really uncomfortable. So I wanna share with you guys when my favorite partners here for the podcast third. Love. He might have heard me talk about before. They honestly have the most perfect fit. They have more sizes than most brands actually offer seventy sizes, and that includes their signature half-cup sizes because you know, everyone's not gonna fit into the basic sizes just not how our bodies work. They also make it so convenient you can skip the trip to the store and find your fit with third loves online fit finder order it and then tried on at home. So there's no like awkward fitting room experience if you don't feel comfortable in that kind of setting. I've absolutely loved my brother. They also actually really cute onto where there, but. It's hands down the most comfortable bra that you'll own the straps. They don't slip. There's no itchiness super lightweight with like, then memory foam cups that actually hold your shape. So highly highly recommend checking them out third love, honestly, they know that there's a perfect bra for everyone. And so right now, they're offering you guys. Fifteen percent off your first order so go on over to third love dot com slash Taylor now, and you can find your perfect fitting bra and get fifteen percent off of your first purchase. That's third. Love dot com slash Taylor. Fifteen percent off today. And now we can get back to the show that we've talked about bras. Part of why asked about like, you're dating and how that you know, the knowledge around mental health and experienced around that how that impacts it. Because I think there's so much of like a stigma around people who are either in the helping field or just people who kind of like know what they're talking about. When it comes to that kind of stuff that there's this layer of intimidation. And then there's like this different standard that you're held to where you know, if you do anything, that's not smart or that, you know. Holy teen that you were then like completely. Loft complete credibility and everything. And it's like, I know for me and dating I've had to, you know, even in other relationships with family where I've been told, you know, like, don't try to therapist talk to me. And like, I I can only imagine like having that in your family and dating and meeting your mom, and knowing that the that's like a whole other layer of intimidation. I mean, most people have been nice, I imagine you've gone to worse than me because you already have a degree, and you are therapists. I don't feel like an expert of mental health yet. You know? I mean, like, my my jobs have been like, I'm helping somebody else being expert, but I will say that my boyfriend's the one that was terrible. I was dating him during that career transition. And he, you know, we would fight unlike anything I would say or do he'd be like, well, that's kinda therapist. But actually, he wasn't a yeah. Yeah. You can't be therapist and those kinds of comments and like fuck you. I'm not your therapists. If you pay me two hundred dollars for an hour. I will treat you like therapist would. Yeah. And I think there's really this. Absurd mindset that therapists are therapists their entire day and throughout their entire lives than that. They don't have any room to just be frigging person. Like, the I might work as therapists. But my full identity is not that I'm therapist right now. There's a reason you get wealth therapists, get paid because it's exhausting. You know, like you can't put in a relationship. It can't all the about your partner all the time. Like you have to be allowed to to express. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you feel like you have to in a way like kind of pushed down some of those skills? Like, I always find myself in a bit of a conundrum because I'm told on one hand to use my gifts and be the bigger person. And you know, use these skills that I have to help relationships. And then on the other hand, I'm told, you know, don't talk to them like you're like, they're your patient and like all that. So it's like, okay. Well, which way my supposed to go here. Then I feel a lot of pressure to not express emotion very much like. Maybe loving motion. I don't feel like I can express anger. I don't feel like solely because of their appeal thing. I think it's also because that's also a woman thing I feel like so women's. Yeah. I don't want to be seen as psycho. I mean, I definitely think that women are the shitty end of like deal of rice careful when I like you. Like that. Yeah. I mean, but but but men I mean, if men get really angry than that's even worse because the aggressive imitating. So we definitely, you know, have expect men to be controlled. But women are the ones who I think are seen as crazy. Yeah. And I'm like, very resistant to to that. And I put a lot of effort into not not being angry not being impulsive like hearing his perspective considering thousand different processes immunities hiring because I don't feel like in relationships that you receive the same age that I receive the same or that the I could fully express myself in not be left. You know, because it's so hard to knock it left in the first place. Even when I do put all this effort into being crawl real so real I one. Piece of feedback. I very frequently. Got from spins Pacific Lee, one of my very good male friends is that us, very harsh tones of voice, sometimes and that like to to real that in away and to use softer tones when I'm trying to you know. Give feedback on something. Or when I'm trying to talk with someone about something that hurt my feelings. Frustrated me too in a way, soften it. So that they can hear me. And I it's like I understand part of what he's saying. And I get that. But the other part of me is like no fuck that if I'm pissed I'm pissed and if I'm I'm really hurt, and you know, what like this other person's going to have to feel and and here and allow space for me to express that because I wouldn't wanna be in a relationship or friendship where I felt so much that I had to censor myself to be, you know, completely completely correct? Completely kind of watered down a bit. And again, kind of goes back to like the whole category thing and being a one dimensional character where it's like, no, we're very complex. We got a lot of feelings. I think this is why they're like relationships are not comforting to me. Because honestly, it it takes some which works even exist in like to get to the point where I can even raise my voice or cry or I do cry really easily. So that usually does come out, really. I mean, my momma was taught me she's very strategic like chains. Indignant like. Chains ethnic indignation or anger in disappointment or sadness, my mom kind of edges on being a bit of a professional victim. So, but but it it does typically seem more powerful nothing. Nothing turns people away like well. I can't say it's indignation. Like, sometimes you're gonna dictate you know, like, sometimes ships annoying. Absolutely. It's and I think part of it, you know, that makes it frustrating that at least for me. I'm sure for you to your already doing this kind of internal work to try to process it and to try to cope with it. And then the fact that you can't even work through that expression of it as well to me is feels like unfair and just kind of shitty. Yeah. Which is why I just think it would be such a relief to date somebody who really knows himself in really is capable of like. Because I think expect explorations interesting that like who are you? What's going on? Why do you react? This way. How do you fight? Like, I think it would be really really fulfilling to have a relationship with somebody where we can explore those things in that means that he gets to be angry. Sometimes so do I in the mall talk about it. A lot of men find that incredibly exhausting. Yeah. So haven't really got do that yet. I'm definitely at that point right now, I'm at like seven month Mark over here. And there's definitely new things that come up that allow us opportunity to process and understand where each of us are coming from. And where you know where this is being triggered from. And how we deal with it. And it is hard because it does take so much emotional energy. And it I don't like it takes away from other things. But I know especially when both of us are like working asses off and like trying to get as much work done. And then trying to enjoy time together does feel like it takes away. But I think then the day like that is that is the core of the work that you really have to put in not only for yourself, but also for a relationship because otherwise you're not you're not allowing yourself to a show up in the relationship, which means you're not really having a authentic connec. Action. And then winner just having a flimsy, you know, Instagram can action, you know, for like two look pretty like, that's not that's not sustainable. Not at all. I feel like I feel lonelier when I'm dating than when single, and it's it's just but Sunday Sunday that'll change whatever I get city such down. When I talk about dating his other times, I've like on such a heartbreaker is been. Last or if I've done the dumping last. Yes. So yeah. Yeah. Most of our conversations I feel that we have about dating are quite exciting. Not at all downers, definitely a little bit deep, and I hear you on that. But it's really exciting. And I think our conversations are excited in that way. Because we both have like strong passion to explore relationships and to not limit ourselves in terms of a how we can be in them and be what they can actually look like. And I don't really. Rare actually to find another people because. We mostly want to stick with what's comfortable to ask than most of that is what's traditional and a lot of traditional doesn't fuck you work like most marriages end in divorce like most most relationships. Traditionally the way that we go about them, don't fully work. And I think especially when we have like this wave of social media, and how relationships look there too that like. I don't know. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic. And maybe there is more of a wave of doing deep internal work with relationships. But on the other hand also just kind of feels like we're not, and we just wanna be in relationships because we don't wanna be alone. Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts. The first being that. I I think what we have fundamentally agree on is that we shouldn't expect are we shouldn't accept a template murmur relationship. Like, oh, this is what a relationship looks like these are the rules. They've been written by somebody else, if we break them than obviously, it's terrible owner, you know, I I had a flirtation with poly-amorous in what I liked about. It was you don't get to make those assumptions in. So the relationship automats because much more intentional like somebody. Does his you off? You can't just be like, oh, that's wrong. That's not. How relationships were like, we'll know. We're inventing the rules of our relationship or seeing what works. I think the problem with cert- with like Polycom ran particular is that it can be very difficult to maintain. If there isn't community support for the reason, we have these templates because other people buy into them, and it makes it makes it easier to know how to act, and so it's more challenging in you need somebody you need a partner who is very introspective in very open. In and that's hard to find that for both men and women. Yeah. Did you did you ever watch the docu series on Showtime? Paul marie. No. So there's two seasons of it. There might not be third season. I'm not totally sure I really enjoyed the first season the second season felt kind of like it made me uncomfortable. I didn't really like the second season. And I think partially because they showed more of people that were like kind of try out pollyanna right for the first time, which in some ways. Yes, I still learned a lot from it. But it also felt like it was. Displaying pollyanna way that was like over sexualize. And yes, there was no communication and some of these instances where it felt like it was very dangerous example of what Polly is. So I didn't particularly I just I had some issues with the second season. But the first season, I think there were several relationships that did a really good job of actually showing how important that communication is in a kind of Polly relationship where like there was so much internal work being done, and so much group work being done between everyone that you know, for me being someone that like loves doing that kind of work is like, oh this much fun. But it is I think very difficult to actually explore unless both people are everyone involved is on board with doing that kind of work. And then you also have a community around it. Because me think about it most people that you and your life. I'm august. And I. I do think that you're pointing out something important, which is in the Polly community. I think it has been hyper sexualize. Yeah. And I think that that is because when you have a community it's like, okay, what is gonna keep community coming together. Well, what's the one thing that binds us? Oh, yeah. It's having multiple sex partners are most magic partners K. So that means that the events will do together or going to be based on that in. So then you have things like sex parties, which are fine. But I think it. It's mistaking. It's like four through the trees like it's Polly Emery isn't so much about sex as it is about redefining love as getting other than possession ownership learnings Sabih happy for your partner, exploring various facets of his identity that you can't call moment. That's a that's an emotional thing is not a sexual thing. It sexy part of it. So so I just I think that a lot of times these communities or these relationships fall apart because they're almost focusing on the wrong thing in the community is may be focusing on the wrong thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's I think, you know, when I talk with my friends 'cause obviously like I said you, and I talk a lot about relationships in the different kinds relationships. We can have anyone my other friends. They'd talk about this a lot. And I think there's a big. I think that there's a lot of confusion around hearing someone say that someone's an open relationship versus Polly. And I think people see the to the same sometimes. And I'm curious for you, what your differences are in again, kind of the labeling in the categorizing of these things of defining. What an open relationship is versus. How you see? Polly relationships happen. I don't know if this is technically, correct. But I see Pali as more of an umbrella term like polio. Marie means. You can have multiple, you know, relationships in their various types of polymers relationships. So in open relationship to knee would mean, okay, you have a primary partner, but there's some arrangement that you have where you can have like other sex partners or their sexual experiences. If somebody said there in a poly-amorous relationship, I would I wouldn't assume so quickly what it is. But it indicates to me more like maybe I have two partners like two defined pars or three or, but there's so many different combinations. Gabby you know, they could have their own partners didn't webs. I don't know. How would you describe it or define it for me? This is kind of how I've gone about like different trading. When I when I talk with my friends, and I think an open relationship is usually like a don't ask don't tell. And I think that there's been kind of this wave even like with the dating apps and stuff where you know. You're maybe dating someone for like a few months, but there's no talk yet. And it's kind of like asking open relationship like you don't talk to that person with other people that you're seeing, but it's kind of like understood of like, yeah. Like, we're not exclusive by like we're seeing each other, and it's kind of open. And then I think there's also the open relationships that literally are people are. Are for the most part exclusive to themselves. But then we'll just have kind of a unspoken agreement that you know, if you wanna hook up with someone else, that's fine. I just want to know about it to me that's kind of what an open relationship looks like and a differentiate that from poly because to me Polly is very inclusive and Polly is very much focused on the love and like the not only these sexual relationship. How I've you open relationships, but also on the emotional relationship because at least in in my experience in my. Somewhat -education around Polly that typically these really very deep relationships that people are developing with more than one person. And again, that's what we see every season of the bachelor, whereas like Klingon, I'm in love with two people. I never thought I could do that them pick one and only wanna del like. Yeah. Like, in some cases, you don't have to. And I think I don't know that I would definitely recommend people checking that out the docu series on Showtime, again, I I learned a lot from that first season. And it was just it was very I opening to all the different kinds of relationships. You can have. But yeah, I definitely distinguish Hollywood just being more inclusive everyone involved understands and everyone involved knows. And there's a lot of communication around that. And I don't know. It's it's it's very interesting. And I'm I'm happy that there are more conversations happening now about relationships outside of monogamy because I think we've seen in in so many ways that sometimes monogamy is not the best answer. Sometimes Managua doesn't work for everyone ill. I've struggled a lot with wondering. Whether I can be monogamous. Whether it's the best for me. I do not think the paalea Mery is better for me. I'm kind of intrigued by monogamous. I missed. How do you augment? As being like open. Open. Yeah. But like so my accent. I had a policy where we could kiss anyone wanted that was it actually works really well because it meant because the slip up. I can be pretty flirtatious in slip up that I am most likely to make in terms of if I were ever to cheat would be to kiss somebody while drunk what you guys tally other that you had slipped up or that you would have that experience with someone else. So he wanted. Yes. He wanted us to think it was like a demand. I didn't care if he told me or not he was heard on. So whenever yet. So he said because he he he had been wholly risk for like ten years or maybe it was five, but like time he had been very Polly. It was very in that scene. I didn't have much interest in that. Yeah. I don't really like community very much. So I didn't want to be dating within a community odd thing to say. But I just I don't I like keep my friendship separate separate my relationship separate. Can come together. Sometimes by hate like whenever people describe going to church or even burning man's like sense of community. Like, that's that's widely burning them much, but they did not like this community stone. I don't connect with it. So strange. I never went to church growing up. So there was just never that kind of. But yes, a week has other people in that was good. I think for me monogamous means okay? You know, you are my partner you are my love, but we understand that relationships develop over time, and they change, and ultimately, I want to do whatever's going to keep this relationship afloat in that might mean changing art Einem IQ every few years or trying new things realizing that they might fail coming back, but the not breaking up because of minor indiscretions because I cannot imagine breaking up somebody for kissing someone else or even having like a one night stand depending on win in the relationship in house bonders affairs are like that's no go zone. But, but yeah, I mean, I've always fundamentally understood that people are going to be intrigued by others in. They're going to have relationships in win. They are in that moment with that other. A person it doesn't feel wrong. It feels like you're honoring this other relationship in its in retrospect that you as dishonored a more important relationship, and that's very I think difficult for people. We'll even his I shared I want a few weeks ago on Instagram and people wanted me to touch on this more. Glad we're touching a little bit on it. Now, even though are going to be a long one. Such a good topic. And I definitely want to do other episodes specifically on this. But yeah, I think it is really difficult for people to grasp because even just the notion like J shoddy who's like very well known just like, very inspirational stuff, he posted a quote that was like, you know, if you like someone else that means that the person you love, you don't really love something along those lines. Dan, savage, who I love he doesn't savage podcast here in Seattle and writes for the stranger, and it's like a love column all this stuff. And he had pointed out that like this is really toxic for people to read and this is not true. And yeah, I think you know, one thing I've always that an every single one of my relationships is the person I marry is not going to be the one and only person that I for the rest of my life have sex with. Not. I just don't see that for me. Like, I'm gonna want exp-. I'm going to find other people attractive, and that's not. Okay. I mean that that is. Okay. It doesn't mean that. I no longer find you attractive is just that I'm gonna find other people attractive, and I might want to explore sexual experiences with them or we we might want to include them in our sexual experiences. Like, there's so many different possibilities. And I think you have to really have an open mind about them. And I think I'm sure a lot of the things we've inside and just like twenty minutes, I've been perhaps a little disturbing for some people to listen to because it just goes so against what what we've been told. And what we see what we've grown up with and all of that. I mean, I don't know completely how to describe this. But I think one issue is that I like infidelity doesn't make you a bad person. I'm. Very like, my by orientation or infidel is very much along the lines of Parral. So any does her basically how feel about? Yeah. But the problem is that the outside world create circumstances that make it very difficult to get over infidelity. Like, I was horrendous cheated on by the ex that I've talked about just awfully cheated on in that. I mean, he treated to extent that it was like, I can never speak to you, again, just terribly six point the trust is is so incredibly broken like for me. The righteous thing is like you got to be honest. Like, I don't care what you do. But like, you gotta be honest with me, right while the problem is that even though I think he's a Zach of shit. I don't think that necessarily mines next relationship. If he hasn't indiscretion is. But what the problem is that I'm so damaged from that relationship might you know, might might. I'm so vigilant in a way, it's not that. I'm I'm not afraid of being cheated on. I'm afraid of being lied to nip related disrespected just inherently unimportant louder for that people in the bag. Yes. Yes. Well, when we and so I think we have a society that does not does not reward men for being in relationships. Reward women for being relationships impacts. Their were is finally achieved when they are in a relationship, especially when they finally get married. They get to get married because they have to wait for someone to then ask them to get married is where the ball in chain. And I think, you know, women no this up consciously in. So when we get cheated on. It's just another example of how don't want be with us. They're never gonna commit it's impossible. So all of that those that's not actually the cheating. You know? I mean, you can have a prisoner cheated because he had a moment that was very special with another person. And it would have felt almost dishonest should not act on that moment. You know? It's not bad to share intimacy with prison. The problem is that all of these other factors come in and destroy the relationship because you can't conceptualize how you could have just been cheated on without having been disrespected, you know, without the relationship, meaning nothing like all these things. And again, I will say that. Yes. If you have. Committed and the relationship that you have built has been one of monogamy, and you do then cheat than to me. I do think that you are then disrespecting that partner because I agree because that's what your relationship has been built on. And unless there's like communication around that changing than it makes total sense to feel all the things that we said because you were cheated on. But I I I agree. And I always end up sounding like I'm endorsing cheating in not all in saying is that we do shitty things all the time, and I don't make bad people, and they don't make the relationship on salvageable. Like you should. Yeah. Don't cheat on your partner. But the reality is infidelity is it happens in an incredibly high percentage, credibly high. And so we decided to have this decision to make do we want it to Royal of relationships or do we want to find a way to move through it? And again, when we read things like that, you know, like that quote that I had said where it's like, oh, if you look at another person like that that means you don't really love your partner that is instilling sites. A high amount of shame into is for even finding another person attractive to then do then where we do end up cheating because we're not actually open to having that level of communication because we just we just feel so incredibly shamed around it, and we feel like we've already transgressed. So we've already transgressed any mine as well. Continuing loan the line. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It's so twisted. Yeah. I am not in door sing seating. I would be very hurt. If I were cheated on. And I do not want to donate partner. He has just I just think the way we conceptualize it is it's it's too much of a shortcut over actually upset about our many other different dynamics, definitely definitely. This is the most fun podcasts. People skills. That's okay. You know, we're multifaceted multidimensional women, and that's amazing. That's wonderful. So we don't always have to make sense. I think it's really important to talk about this kind of shit. And, you know, talk about what these things could look like and how they make us feel and I don't think I'm sure we won't be alone in some of these thoughts. But I'm sure that some of them are also very new things for someone be hearing. So it's okay to think we're a little bit weird. Yeah. I could obviously keep going for many more hours on all these subjects, and I'm so happy that we finally got to have you on the pod to talk about some of this. Yeah. Sounds fun. Yeah. I always like try to whenever like guess was coming on. You know, I'm always especially for like from the show. I'm like, you know, we're just really gonna go wherever the conversation takes us. So like, we'll talk a little bit, you know, general idea. But like, it's okay. If we don't stick to particular topic like we're just gonna go where this takes us. And this is taken us in so many. So many places Jacqueline. Oh my goodness. Well. On now. No, we should probably wrap it up. Thank you again, so much if people can if people wanna find you and learn more about you and all of that where can they find you just from Bellina on Twitter and Instagram? Yeah. I'm gonna be going navy a little bit more undercover coming coming eaters. But. But you always have trouble, you know, cautioned that's another topic that you know, we were supposed to get to. But. Yeah, the whole like being professional, but also having a public life and having to censor things and all of that while I'm learning, and I will continue to learn. Yes. Yes. And we will continue to talk about it on and off air. We'll we'll get to it one of these days. But thank you. So so so much for taking the time today to come on the pod. Finally and talk about all this vulnerable and be open and feel the feelings and slightly. Thanks trump. Megan. Yeah. Okay. Well, that does it for today's episode a little bit longer. But hope you enjoyed all of it as much as I did definitely send any other topics or people that you guys would love to see on the pot as guests over to ask dot, let's talk about it a g mail dot com. And as always love your views on itunes, please head on over there to leave a rating or leave Abe review, and let me know what you're liking about the pod. And again, the event April thirteenth, so I'll put the link to that in the episode notes, and you can also find the link in my bio on Instagram, and I hope to meet them you guys really soon. So how about the rest of your week? Hopefully, guys, get some tickets, and I will talk to you. Chain. This podcast is brought to you by. We've podcasts networks check out all of our shows including the brain candy podcasts. I don't get it coffee condos. And let's talk about it.

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The Hitchhiker Killer Thor Nis Christiansen

Serial Killers

40:03 min | 4 months ago

The Hitchhiker Killer Thor Nis Christiansen

"Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder and sexual violence that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. On a cool evening in January of nineteen seventy seven cars whizzed through a busy intersection near the community of Vista California Patty Laney. A bright twenty one year, old college student from the nearby UC. Santa Barbara sucked in a deep breath and approach the road. In her hands, she gripped a stack of missing person fliers as Patty approached a corner light post, she looked down at the pictures of the two missing women. They looked so much like her. Patty shook away. The unpleasant fought pulled out a roll of tape and got to work hanging the flyers. She didn't want to be at the intersection longer than she had to. It was the same place. One of the women banished from six weeks earlier once the flyers were up, Patty waited a few minutes. A friend was supposed to pick her up and take her to a play rehearsal, but there was no sign of them. Patty shrugs her shoulders. She stepped up to the curb and stuck her thumb out immediately as if it had been waiting, a car pulled over Patty peered inside a young man with blue eyes and blond hair, smile and motion for her to get in. As the man merged back into traffic. Patty looked down at her flyers and wondered who the next woman to go missing would be. Hi I'm Greg Poulsen. This is serial killers. Original, every episode we dive into the Mindset Madness of serial killers today were telling the story of four Knicks, Christians and also known as California's hitchhiker killer. I'm here with my co host. Vanessa Richardson. Hi everyone, you can find episodes of serial killers, and all other parkhouse originals for free on spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on spotify just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar. This is a one part episode covering the killing spree of. Christianson, I will take a look at what might have turned the quiet blonde boy into impulsive killer. Later will focus on the investigation into his slayings and learn about the would be victim. Who lived to tell the tale? Stick around for the full hitchhiker killer story after this. In nineteen, sixty, three, the five year, old thorn, Christian, seven, his parents, Marie and Miss Christian arrived in the United States, the family had emigrated from Denmark in search of better opportunities in an ever expanding economy after arriving on the West Coast, the family decided to settle in the California town of Soul Vang move made sense solving was founded by Danes, and is known as the Danish capital of America and there are people spoke Danish and the traditional architecture and windmills reminded the newly arrived family of their homeland. Not only would it feel almost like home. It might help young th or settle in easier. thors parents didn't waste any time and set out to start a business on a busy street near the middle of town, they opened a restaurant that specialized in authentic Danish food almost overnight. The restaurant was a success. It was just the thing. The town's locals who were proud of their Danish heritage had been missing the restaurants success brought the family a degree of prosperity just as they'd hoped comfortable and financially secure thor had everything he needed to excel. The Chair, BEC-, Blonde, haired, blue, eyed boy, performed well in this academic subjects, and it was notably well behaved. Those teachers considered him one of their brightest students. But around sixth or seventh grade, those friends noticed a change in him. He was no longer the innocent quiet boy. They knew while playing games like basketball. Thor would snap for no reason overcome with anger. He would lash out by kicking the ball away. Forcing others to retrieve it in the TV, documentary series born to kill thors childhood friend. Ron said that thor was just not a very nice person. He'd be fine than all of a sudden. He'd snap and he just be mean and nasty. Run also recalled that around this time. Thor began to hurt small animals. After receiving a butterfly net thor grew bored with trapping small insects. Before long, he was catching sparrows and bullfrogs. For meticulously taped firecrackers to the trapped animals. Then he would light the fuse and watch them explode. While thors, behavior was startling. It may have been prompted by childhood trauma. A friend admitted that Thorne's father was a hard core alcoholic. Who would often beat up on for for little or no reason Vanessa is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note the necessary, not a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks, Greg in an article titled Risk Factors Among Adult. Children of alcoholics by Kathy W Hall and Raymond e Webster The authors discuss the effects of growing up with an alcoholic parent. They explained that in this type of dysfunctional family system children often fail to learn the emotional tools necessary to deal with their anger, when thors father was irrationally angry with him. Thors, perpetual fear of making a mistake may have led him to develop inappropriate coping mechanisms, these unconscious strategies which were hard wired into thors, brain might explain certain behaviors such as his propensity for killing animals. It's also possible that thor had an undiagnosed mental illness which was exacerbated by his father's alcoholism. Whatever was happening in the Christianson? House was a recipe for disaster now instead of excelling in a productive environment or floundered and a dysfunctional one. Perhaps in an attempt to cope with his troubled home, life for himself began drinking alcohol, his friend Ron remembered for giving him his first beer in the seventh grade, as Ron sipped, the warm, bitter beer thord down his own like a season drinker. To him, that thor was no stranger to the bottle. By the time he started highschool thors, drinking had become routine then he was combining alcohol with other drugs. Thor was spiraling out of control, and he was enabled in his addiction by his mother Annemarie. Thors, mother spoiled him. It's possible. She did so out of a feeling of guilt for her husband's actions, or perhaps she simply liked to give her son Nice things when he turned sixteen, his parents gifted him a new Audi. His mother would also leave a twenty dollar bill on thors dresser for him to take whenever he needed. Then she would replace it with another. It was a never ending cycle, and those twenties weren't used for the wholesome. Wholesome fun is mother might have envisioned in a television interview thors high school friend Guy said the first thing we do get a fifth of Scotch, and he'd have a couple of shots before class. Unsurprisingly, the alcohol wasn't good for thors already slipping grades, the once innocent boy with a promising future, had now turned into the troubled young man who struggled with addiction as thors interest in school waned, and his grades declined. He cut class more frequently. When he was at school or struggled to fit in with his classmates, thor had also gained a lot of weight and was reportedly too embarrassed to talk to girls. At a later interview, thors friend Norman noted how the rejections perceived or actual affected thor overtime thor became increasingly reclusive instead of joining friends at the beach or other social gatherings, thor spent most of his time alone in his car, smoking, Pot and drinking. It was here parked on a bluff overlooking the ocean that thor began to harbor dark thoughts. He was angry over the rejection of his peers, and his relationship with his parents was chaotic. Feeling powerless, he imagined a situation in which he had complete control. In these disturbing fantasies, he would have sex with corpses of young women in the building blocks, of Necrophilia Jack Penman explains that while the causes for this disorder are complex, necrophilia is often born from the universal desire for acceptance. A deceased partner is incapable of rejecting or emotionally hurting anyone. Thor might have craved that unconditional compliance. To try and client these thoughts thor drank more, which only worsened the fantasies. His mood darkened to the point that France started calling him cloudy and overcast Christianson. The nickname only pushed him away more in the middle of his senior year thord dropped out of high school during the day he worked at a gas station, pumping gas and fixing cars. At night he drove around searching for isolated places to park and drink. It was these nightly excursions that led him to the tone of Isla Vista. Forty miles from solving ISLA VISTA WASN'T IDYLLIC beachside community home to the University of California Santa Barbara. Many residents were students who made the most of the peaceful carefree town. People in Isla Vista felt safe. Few outsiders visited and most of the students knew each other in nineteen, seventy six. It's still was common to see young students out on the streets late at night, and it wasn't at all unusual for them to hitchhike in out of town. They didn't know. Was that eighteen year old? Thor Christiansen was spying from the shadows something spurred Thor to shift his nightly routine from sitting alone in an isolated area to cruising through the bustling college town. He watched the young women going to and from their social events, and fantasized about them, lying on the side of the road dead, and now instead of pushing these thoughts away, four began to embrace them. Really November Day in nineteen seventy six thor finally gave in to his dark impulses. He drove up the coast to the outskirts of Isla Vista there at a busy intersection. He saw young woman standing at the edge of the curb. Jacqueline Rook was a twenty one year old UC Santa Barbara Student? She was considered a leader among the student body Jacqueline had spent the day shopping in town, and when it was time to head home, she approached a busy intersection and stuck out her thumb again. Hitchhiking was something students did regularly. It was considered a safe way to get around. She wasn't waiting long before a car pulled over and offered her a lift. Jacqueline bent down to check who was driving for was a little unkempt, but his blue eyes and blond hair made the young man look like just about any other beach-loving college student denied La Vista. In other words. Thor didn't throw up any red flags, so jacqueline open the car door and got in. While Driving Thorpe made small talk. He liked to brag to strangers about his parents restaurant. It's car. He hoped. Jacqueline wouldn't notice when he turned off the main highway in into Refugio Canyon, the back road was a well known cut through for people who lived in solving, but it was also dark and isolated. Looking around Jacqueline became concerned. Four knew that it was now or never thorpe parked on the side of the desolate road. As Jacqueline turned to look out the window, Thor pulled out a twenty two caliber pistol and shot her in the side of the head. Force ears rang, and his vision blurred in the seconds following the gun shot, he knew he had crossed a line that could never be uncrossed to keep blood from getting all over his car. Thaw acted fast. He pulled Jacqueline's body out of the vehicle and dragged her into the woods. They're hidden from the road and spurred on by his famous fantasies thor undressed her. He had sex with Lynne's still warm body when he was satisfied, thor got back into his car and drove away. In one fateful, evening or life had changed forever. And, he was only just getting starting. Next thors horrifying urges. Drive him to kill again. I've been having so much fun playing best fiends these past few weeks. Have you played best beans yet? It's a fantastic five star rated mobile puzzle game. There are thousands of fiendishly fun and unique puzzles. The more that I played the more I want to see what happens next what newland Alan cover or new fiend on lock? Best Phoenix is a casual game that gets updated monthly with new levels and events so I never get bored with it I. Find Myself playing best fiends a lot in the morning. What I'm waiting for my coffee to Abreu. Sometimes, the levels feel easy to get through, and sometimes they're more challenging, but that's what keeps me entertained. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five-star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play. Download Best Wien free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best means. A high listeners, if you're fascinated by the mysterious and manipulative side of True Crime Greg and I have another podcast series. That's just for you. It's called colts. That's right. Every Tuesday Joint Vanessa and me as we step inside the minds of those who lead and followed the most controversial radical and sometimes deadly organizations in history. We'll go beyond the headlines and discover. Discover, the foundation behind notorious cults like Jim Jones and Peoples Temple the rush movement Heaven's Gate and more each episode of Colts, full of illuminating details of their improbable origins and sinister intentions, but not all colts are from decades past. Be sure to catch the special four part series on Nexium a modern day. Pyramid Scheme turned sex trafficking cult doomsday predictions religious beliefs. Terrestrial orders find out what really happens inside a cult subscribe to colts, free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. In November of nineteen seventy six eighteen year old Thor Christiansen abducted and murdered twenty one year old university student Jacqueline Rook. He then had sex with her corpse before leaving her in the woods on the side of the road first her friends weren't that worried by her disappearance in an age before cell phones, it was not uncommon for a person to seemingly go missing for a day or Or two only turn up safe and sound friends, students and the police hoped this was true for Jacqueline, but while others wondered about the whereabouts of his first victim, thor was already fixated on finding his next on. December sixth nineteen seventy. Six Marianne Sarah's a nineteen year old waitress from the area left a doctor's appointment in Isla Vista, she stepped to the curb and held out her thumb. According to her friends and family, Mary was an avid hitchhiker for her. Getting into a stranger's car wasn't something to fear. Instead it was an opportunity to someone new and save time traveling. Mary waved her thumb high above her head to catch the attention of an approaching driver as he pulled over. She noticed that he was driving a luxury car. Perhaps this was her lucky day Thorpe Christianson leaned over and asked her if she needed a ride. As he had done with Jacqueline or drove Mary to a desolate area. As she looked out the window, four pulled out his twenty two caliber pistol and shot her in the head. He took Mary out of his car on dressed her and defiled her dead body. She wouldn't be found until may the following year. According to a nineteen eighty-nine study of necrophilia by Jonathon, P Rosman and Philip J resnick, sixty eight percent of NECROPHILIAC's were motivated by a desire, foreign, unresisted and UN. Rejecting partner researchers theorize that necrophiles suffer from poor self-esteem, perhaps developed from an early age. If thors father was an alcoholic, who beat him that might be one explanation for why th- or was susceptible to these dark fantasies. Fours, low self esteem diminished his confidence, which caused even lower self esteem like drinking. This was another negative feedback loop that left unchecked propelled thor down a ruinous path. BACK IN ISLA VISTA FEAR had settled over the community. Students began protesting violence against women, the lack of campus bus services and the dangers of student hitchhiking one by one the students of UC. Santa Barbara became activists. One of these student activists was twenty one year old Patricia. Laney talented. Juggler and Mine Patty was heavily involved in community groups in a television interview. Patty's close friend John Fondly remembered her as someone who was always smiling. She would brighten up a room by walking into it. It didn't surprise anyone. Then when on January, Eighteenth, nineteen, seventy seven patty volunteered to help distribute flyers for the missing women on them were photos of Jacqueline and Mary as well as a number to call with any information patty decided the best place to put up. The flyers would be the exact place Mary had disappeared the intersection of Patterson and Hollister. Patty made for the theater friend to pick her up and down to the intersection. Just outside of town she taped flyers to traffic polls, junction boxes and the bus stop when she was done. She looked around for her friend, but he wasn't there. Patty had a rehearsal that night. She was excited to play the part of Wendy in a student. Theatre groups performance of Peter, pan. She couldn't be late so rather than miss her rehearsal. Patty held out her thumb. Perhaps he thought if the person picking her up seemed dangerous at all. She wouldn't accept the ride. Maybe. She had promised herself that she would only accept a ride from another student. Either way when Thor Christiansen pulled over at the intersection of Patterson and Hollister Patty got into his car. Foretold Patty. He knew a short cut to theater and turned off the main highway into Refugio Canyon. It was the same back road which he had taken Jack Lynbrook down, not far from where he had murdered. Jacqueline Thorpe pulled over to the side of the road. He pulled out his twenty two caliber pistol and shot Patty in the side of the head as he had done with Jacqueline and Mary thaw pulled Patty out of his car on dressed her, and had sex with her body. When thor was done, he made no attempt to conceal the corpse. He threw Patti's backpack out of his car and drove away. Then he noticed blood on the car seat. Thor quickly pulled over, and with a stack of Napkins wiped up the blood. Then he threw the Napkins out of the window and drove home. Less than twenty four hours later, a deputy police officer pulled over to the side for few Gio. Canyon Road to take a break when the deputy looked out his window there in the grass was Patty Laney's body. When detectives arrived on the scene, they searched the area for evidence a short way from Patty. They eventually found Jacqueline rooks body in the undergrowth. Police scoured the surrounding area for clues. It didn't take them long to find the bloody napkins store used to wipe up patties. Blood detectives manage to lift a fingerprint from them, but there wasn't a match in their database. Still investigators expressed confidence to the press that the fingerprint would lead to an arrest. With the police now investigating two of his murders, thor feared getting caught and needed to clear his mind, everything had changed so quickly less than three months before thor had never committed a crime now just days after his nineteenth birthday, he was a serial killer for once. Thor didn't want to be alone. Perhaps he was afraid of what he might do, so he called. Called up his old friend guy and asked him if he wanted to get a drink. The friends picked up some beer from the liquor store and drove to a spot overlooking the ocean while they were drinking and smoking weed in the car. They were approached by a sheriff after ordering the young men to pour out their alcohol. He asked for to open the trunk. Inside, the trunk was a brown paper Bag, containing thors to caliber pistol. When the police questioned him about the pistol, he said it was for target practice. A twenty two caliber pistol was pretty common and rural. California and the officer didn't think there was anything particularly suspicious about it. He confiscated the weapon and let thor and guy go with a warning. This run with the police was the final Straw for for the authorities were closing in and to him, his arrest seem inevitable. He decided to leave town. He packed up his car and hit the road. He headed north and didn't stop driving until he was in Oregon there he planned to start over far away from his family away from the girls who rejected him in school, and most importantly away from the three women he had murdered. Next door's inner demons bring him to the city of angels now back to the story. At the beginning of Nineteen, seventy seven nineteen year, old thorn Miss Christian so was running from his past within the span of three months he'd murdered three young women and had sex with their corpses. The police and FBI hunted for a killer around the Santa Barbara area. Four drove north. He moved to Oregon and plan to start new life. They're away from his crimes. He low paying job on a farm, plowing fields and planting crops. He worked hard, kept to himself and stay out of trouble. He also lost a great deal of weight, and his muscles filled out. It seemed that thor was doing everything he could to reinvent himself. He wanted to be a different person than the one that left California back in Isla. Vista life returned to normal. Although police had not arrested anyone for the murders of Jacqueline Brooke Mary Sarah's and Patty Laney. No other women went missing. Students returned to their classes, and before long the community started to forget about the murders. Although police had pulled fingerprints from the bloody napkins, there were no matches after months of searching, there were no eyewitnesses, no leads and no suspects. The case went cold. After laying low and Oregon for nearly two years, four felt it was finally safe to return home. He packed his few possessions into his car and drove south when he arrived back. In solvay, his friends and family were shocked by his appearance. It was like looking at a completely different person. thors transformation had also given him some confidence. He carried himself differently and wasn't as awkward around people specifically women. And women weren't the only ones giving more of a chance now. He'd grown distant from his parents as a teenager, but after returning from Oregon, they welcomed him home with open arms, and even gave him a job at the restaurant. On the surface, thor were appeared to have improved for good, but really he just gotten better at hiding his darker side, thor continued drink and abuse drugs. He also continued to have terrible fantasies about raping dead women. Soon after we moved back home, he picked up another hitchhiker. Kerry solas was in her early twenties when Thorpe picked her up. He introduced himself with a natural smile. Then offer to take care wherever she wanted to go, but something about this time was different than with the last three women. The to hit it off instead of taking her to a deserted piece of highway, thor brought Kerry back to his apartment there. He asked her to be his girlfriend. She accepted according to carry. Thor was very very nice. Carry also admitted that thor sexual appetite was insatiable. According to an investigator, Carey stated that she and Thor had sex three to five times a day. It's possible. The sexual activity was another coping mechanism or desperate attempt to keep his demons at bay when he wasn't with Kerry or working at his parents restaurant. Thor tried to stay busy. In quiet moments. He methodically cleaned his car. His friend Guy noticed that he paid particularly close attention to the truck, but when guy asked about it for change subject. The nineteen, seventy seven, run in with the police had spooked thor now that he was back in town. It seems his fears of being caught had returned. They still had his gun after all. It's possible that his fear of the local police motivated thor to start taking trips to Los Angeles. It had been just over two years since had murdered patting laney and dumped her body in the side of lonely road, since then he managed to contain his wicked urges. But he couldn't eliminate them. In his article, wicked deeds examining criminal motives, criminologist Scott Bond talks about the period of time between serial murders as crucial to the serial killer pattern, he states that serial predators reemerged from cooling off period to strike again. When the urge to kill becomes overwhelming to them, he also says that a serial killer may not even understand his or her compulsion to kill, but knows that it is both undeniable and uncontrollable. When the URGE ARISES IN THORNS. Case it seemed he tried to drown out these undeniable and uncontrollable urges with drugs and alcohol. But when that didn't work, he moved to Oregon and stay busy as a farmhand after returning to solving, he tried to live a normal life by getting a girlfriend. But for thor the urge to kill young women, and have sex with their corpses never laughed as much as he tried. Thor couldn't change who he was. The only thing he could change was where he hunted his victims for figured Los Angeles was the best place to act upon his urges. He knew he had a lower chance of being caught in a big city. For thord seemed like the perfect hunting ground while carry state at the apartment. Thor frequented Hollywood area bars there. He approached women on the street, offering them money for sex. One of those women was twenty two year old. Laura Benjamin after a brief negotiation Laura, who was reportedly a sex worker got into his car once he had her trapped thor pulled out a twenty two caliber pistol and shot her in the head. For then drove to a rural area north of Los. Angeles, and the San Gabriel mountains there near a small culvert. He raped Laura's a dead body when he was done for cleaned his car and drove home to his girlfriend. He made several more trips to Los Angeles in Nineteen, seventy, nine on April eighteenth twenty-four-year-old. Lydia Preston walked down the sidewalk of a busy street in West Hollywood a car slowed down beside her. Lydia flash the driver of flirtatious smile hoping to entice him when the car pulled over Lydia bent down to look inside the window Dora, asked if she was looking for a date Lydia, who was the sex worker inquired how much money he was really disband after some haggling, Thor handed Lydia forty five dollars and she got him. As explained that he was a construction worker on vacation, Lydia gave directions to a cheap hotel. She wasn't interested in his story to her. He was just another John, but when Lydia pointed out the hotel thor drove past it. thinking thor was just nervous. Lydia gave directions to a different hotel thor past that one to. When turned into the Hollywood hills, Neighborhood Lydia's instincts told her something was very wrong. The road wound around a bend where the houses were few, and far between Lydia became anxious, and she felt her senses on high alert, as she looked out the window to gauge their location, she heard a bang. Lydia's vision blurred and your ears rang. She reached up to touch your left ear and was surprised to find blood. She realized that she'd been shot. But somehow she was still alive. Instinctively. She grabbed the steering wheel for lost control of the car, and they spun off the road when the car came to a stop. Lydia flung open the door and ran for her life. Blood poured from her head, as she ran towards the lights of a nearby house behind her tires, squealed lydia tell if thor was fleeing the scene or driving her down, she had no choice but to keep running. Lydia stumbled through the front yard of a home and desperately banged on the door. When the owner answered, she collapsed, the homeowners called an ambulance and Lydia was rushed to the hospital there. Surgeons removed the bullet from her head. She survived. A few days, later Lydia walked out of the hospital. She was deaf in one ear, and her skull was fractured, but she was alive. It's unclear thor knew that Lydia had survived the attack. If he had followed her, he might have realized she would make it, but having shot her pointblank ahead. It's hardly surprising. He assumed her dead, but someone like thor. Christiansen wasn't. Wasn't going to slow lydia down. She was back in her usual haunts in no time a few months after the attack on July eleventh. Nineteen seventy-nine Liddy was drinking at the bottom line bar in Hollywood as she sat at the Bar, she noticed the front door open to her utter disbelief. Twenty one year old Thorpe Christian sing walked in and took a seat. Lydia quickly ducked behind some other patrons and snuck to the back of the bar. There was no exit, but there was a payphone. She picked it up and called the police. Liddy explained to the police dispatcher that she'd recently been shot in the head, and the man responsible had just walked into the bar. Lydia worried that thor would see her, but she stayed on the line until police arrived with relief and Triumph Lydia Watch detectives place. Thorn handcuffs and walk him out at the bar. The police brought to jail and booked him with felonious assault. Noticing that Lydia's attack was similar to the ISLA. Vista murders police in La and Santa. Barbara started a joint investigation when checking an old evidence locker investigators in Santa Barbara found. The pistol seized from thors trunk in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven, a ballistics tests proved that it was the weapon used in the ISLA. Vista murders authorities also visited most significant piece of evidence. The fingerprint pulled from the bloody napkins discovered near Patty Laney's body. The prince matched doors. When friends family and neighbors heard that thorn been arrested for the Isla, Vista hitchhiker murders. They were in disbelief. According to a Los Angeles Times Article thors, girlfriend Kerry was convinced that local deputies were incapable of responsibly handling the case. Those father told a reporter that the police said accidentally arrested the wrong man, but thors schoolfriend guy was less sceptical in an interview. He said that first he couldn't believe it, but then, too. Many things started adding up. In jail four called Mike Kirkman a police sergeant who had worked murder cases in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy seven. Kirkman was shocked by the call. He was even more shocked when asked to see him Kirkman drove to the jail and they're in a small interview room for told him everything. In a later television interview, Kirkman said that thor became a different person as he spoke, he said his is got focused the muscles in his face changed, and he was telling me that the girls deserved it. Four went on to explain that the three young women he murdered around Isla Vista had made fun of his weight for showed no remorse, and felt entirely justified in his actions, for then had the audacity to ask Kirkman to help him, but to Kirkman four was beyond help. In February nineteen eighty thors trial started in the courtroom. He's stood before a judge and described the murders of Jacqueline Rook Mary Sarah's and Tricia Laney in frightening detail he then frankly confessed to the murder of Benjamin whose body he dumped north of Los Angeles. Laura's body had remained there undiscovered for over a month when the judge asked or why he had killed and raped his victims. He said that while he couldn't prove it medically. He was obviously insane. Thor pleaded guilty in June nineteen eighty, and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Some experts involved with the case speculate that th or may have had more victims during his time in Oregon. Several young women in the area went missing forensic psychiatrist John Stalberg interview for about the matter, but he refused to talk about it. After the interview Dr Stalberg said I think he's responsible for a lot more than we know of. Four was ordered to carry out his life sentences California's most notorious prison fulsome, but it wasn't to be long sentence even at the prison for was an outsider just as he had been his whole life. Less than a year after he arrived, thor stood alone in the exercise yard, another prisoner snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the chest with a shank. Thor was rushed to the prison hospital and pronounced dead on March Thirtieth Nineteen eighty-one. thors friend. Ron Summed up how those close to Thorpe fell to his death by saying. I think it's the best thing that could have happened. He didn't need to live. Thanks again for tuning into serial killers. We back soon with a new episode you can find more episodes of serial killers, and all of the podcast originals free on spotify OUTTA leaders spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals like cereal killers for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker. To Stream, serial killers on spotify just open the APP and type A serial killers in the search bar. We'll see you next time. Killer. Serial killers was created by Max Cutler is a podcast studios original executive producers include Max and Ron Cutler sound design by Juan Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Joshua Kern. This episode of serial killers was written by Adam, Lind with writing assistance by the Cannon and stars Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Hi It's Vanessa and Greg again. Don't forget to check out our podcast. Original series colts every Tuesday. We explore the background in psychology behind the most manipulative mysterious and murderous groups in history. The branch Davidians the Peoples Temple Heaven's gate. You may know the names, but just how well do you know? The colts subscribe to colts free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Introducing Joe Exotic: Over My Dead Body Season 2

Dirty John

04:22 min | 1 year ago

Introducing Joe Exotic: Over My Dead Body Season 2

"For joe exotic life was zoo on sixteen acres of dry. Oklahoma prairie joe who's last name is clearly not exotic but that's what he calls himself scratch channel living as the owner of a roadside wildlife attraction housing babboons gators some big cats but he liked sideshow theater in his personal life to he he was a gun toting spurs wearing tiger breeding polygamous gay cowboy with a mullet and eccentric local celebrity who even handed out condoms with his face printed ended on the he had his own brand crazy but somewhere he pushed it too far in the second season of wondrous podcast over my dead body. You'll you'll meet joe exotic and find out how a love of animals turned into hate and murderous revenge. You're about to hear a preview of over my dead body joe exotic where or you'll meet joe himself and get a glimpse of what life was like inside his zoo while you're listening go subscribe to over my dead body on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening now. There's is also a link in the episode notes. That will take you there. This episode contains adult content. This is the first episode of season two. If you're looking for season one of over reminded body look for tally episode one on this shows feet okay. I'd like to welcome nothing you to a most unusual wedding. It was the winter of two thousand fourteen in a little dance hall in would oklahoma a wedding was just just getting started. The room was decorated in hot pink and tiger stripes. The audience was a mix of humans and animals. There was several people with different kinds of monkeys there for the most part in their strollers or on their mom's lap or in their shirt jacqueline. Thomson awesome was among the guests. She watched his three men in matching hot pink. Cowboy shirts and black jeans walked to the front of the hall. Today we have have gathered to witness. The union of travis john and joe joe said that he always had to boyfriend's outta time time he never had one joe was the groom in the middle he had a chrome pistol hanging from a leather holster around his hips and a bleach blonde mullet his real name was joe schreiber vogel but he was better known as joe exotic in the book of ecclesiastes teas that you didn't know this three are even better for triple. Braided cord is not easily broken. Jones was fifty one years old. One of his husbands to be was in his late twenty s and the other was just nineteen okay and can we have the rings please. Jacqueline in the other guests watched as a small eight gripping white satin pillow was carried up to the front of the hall after me the rings as joe slip during on one fiancee's finger and then on the other. You may now kiss offer after the wedding. The party moved down the street to joe zoo. There joe was in his element climbing in and out of cages while a camera crew captured it all for his youtube channel at one point joe lead jacqueline over to a bear cage handed her a marshmallow and told her put it between your lips cypriot my mouth and i'm like hesitating to put my face through the bar and then he grabbed her head and shoved it up against the cage inches from the bears mouth and that they're just all of a sudden grab the food in his tongue ended up going down down my throat and all i remember is getting a mouthful of sand and flour it was like i was gagging and he was just laughing so hard almost pitas fans and they got that take two that was just a preview of joe exotic to listen to the rest subscribe to joe exotic on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening right now.

joe joe joe zoo joe schreiber vogel Jacqueline Oklahoma jacqueline youtube Thomson prairie Jones travis john fifty one years sixteen acres
Introducing Joe Exotic: Over My Dead Body Season 2

American Scandal

04:22 min | 1 year ago

Introducing Joe Exotic: Over My Dead Body Season 2

"For joe exotic life was zoo on sixteen acres of dry. Oklahoma prairie joe who's last name is clearly not exotic but that's what he calls himself scratch channel living as the owner of a roadside wildlife attraction housing babboons gators some big cats but he liked sideshow theater in his personal life to he was a gun toting spurs wearing tiger breeding polygamous gay cowboy with a mullet and eccentric local celebrity who even handed out condoms with his face printed ended on the he had his own brand crazy but somewhere he pushed it too far in the second season of wondrous podcast over my dead body. You'll you'll meet joe exotic and find out how a love of animals turned into hate and murderous revenge. You're about to hear a preview of over my dead body joe exotic where or you'll meet joe himself and get a glimpse of what life was like inside his zoo while you're listening go subscribe to over my dead body on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening now. There's is also a link in the episode notes. That will take you there. This episode contains adult content. This is the first episode of season two. If you're looking for season one of over reminded body look for tally episode one on this shows feet okay. I'd like to welcome nothing you to a most unusual wedding. It was the winter of two thousand fourteen in a little dance hall in when you would oklahoma a wedding was just just getting started. The room was decorated in hot pink and tiger stripes. The audience was a mix of humans and animals. There was several people with different kinds of monkeys there for the most part in their strollers or on their mom's lap or in their shirt jacqueline. Thomson awesome was among the guests. She watched his three men in matching hot pink. Cowboy shirts and black jeans walked to the front of the hall. Today we have have gathered to witness. The union of travis john and joe joe said that he always had to boyfriend's outta time time he never had one joe was the groom in the middle he had a chrome pistol hanging from a leather holster around his hips and a bleach blonde mullet his real name was joe schreiber vogel but he was better known as joe exotic in the book of ecclesiastes teas that you didn't know this three are even better for triple. Braided cord is not easily broken. Jones was fifty one years old. One of his husbands to be was in his late twenty s and the other was just nineteen okay and can we have the rings please. Jacqueline in the other guests watched as a small eight gripping white satin pillow was carried up to the front of the hall after me the rings as joe slip during on one fiancee's finger and then on the other. You may now kiss offer after the wedding. The party moved down the street to joe zoo. There joe was in his element climbing in and out of cages while a camera crew captured it all for his youtube channel at one point joe lead jacqueline over to a bear cage handed her a marshmallow and told her put it between your lips cypriot my mouth and i'm like hesitating to put my face through the bar and then he grabbed her head and shoved it up against the cage inches from the bears mouth and that they're just all of a sudden grab the food in his tongue ended up going down down my throat and all i remember is getting a mouthful of sand and flour it was like i was gagging and he was just laughing so hard almost pitas fans and they got that take two that was just a preview of joe exotic to listen to the rest subscribe to joe exotic on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening right now.

joe joe joe zoo joe schreiber vogel Jacqueline Oklahoma jacqueline youtube Thomson prairie Jones travis john fifty one years sixteen acres
Introducing Over My Dead Body: Joe Exotic

American Hysteria

04:48 min | 1 year ago

Introducing Over My Dead Body: Joe Exotic

"Hey american hysteria listeners. I've got a new podcast. Tell you about from wondering that. I know you're gonna love. It's called over my dead body and their second season zain. Joe exotic is out now. Joe exotic is a man who loves animals so much so that he started a roadside zoo filled with big cats baboons wounds and gators on an empty patch of land in the middle of oklahoma as you can tell by his name. Joe exotic is not your average joe. He's a gun toting voting lighter breeding gay polygamist eccentric local celebrity who even handed out condoms with his face printed on them but if you think this is starting to sound crazy we're not even into the full story yet from wondering season two of over my dead body tells a story not only about a wild zoo owner but about outrage in murderous revenge over the course of a decade joe fought relentlessly with his biggest rival animal rights activists carol baskin as the two. You tried to bring each other down. You're about to hear a preview of over my dead body joe exotic where you'll meet joe himself and get a glimpse of what life was like aac inside his zoo while you're listening go subscribe to over my dead body on apple podcasts spotify or rever. You're listening now. There's also a link in the episode. Not that will take you there. I'm really excited for this show. I feel like it's right up all of our allies and now here's the preview hope you enjoy. This episode contains adult content. This is the first episode of season two. If you're looking for season one of over my dead body look for tally episode. One on this shows ios feet. I'd like to welcome you to a most unusual wedding. It was the winter of two thousand fourteen in a little dance hall in when you would oklahoma a wedding was just getting started. The room was decorated in hot pink and tiger stripes. The audience was a mix of humans and animals several people with different kinds of monkeys. Ke's there were for the most part in their strollers or on their mom's lap or in their sure. Jacqueline thomson was among the guests. She watched his three men then in matching hot pink cowboy shirts and black jeans walked to the front of the hall. Today we have gathered to witness. The union of travers john and joe joe said that he always had two boyfriends at a time he never just had one. Joe was the grooming in the middle. He had a chrome pistol hanging from a leather holster around his hips and a bleach blonde mullet his real name was joe shrp vogel but he was better known as joe exotic in the book of ecclesiastes dis that you didn't know this. We are or even better for triple. Braided cord is not easily grow kim jones fifty one years old one of his husbands to be was in his his late twenties and the other was just nineteen okay and can we have the rings please. Jacqueline and the other guests watched as a small small eight gripping white satin pillow was carried up to the front of the hall after me. These rings as joe slipped a ring on one fiancee's finger and then on the other. You may now kiss geico after the wedding the party. He moved down the street to joe zoo. There joe was in his element climbing in and out of cages while a camera crew captured should it all for his youtube channel at one point jovan jacqueline over to a bear cage handed her marshmallow and told her put it between your lips. I appreciate my mouth and i'm like you know hesitating to put my face through the bar and then he grabbed her head and shoved it up against the cage h. Inches from the bears mouth and they're just all of a sudden grab the food in his tongue ended up going down my throat and all i remember is getting a mouthful of sand and flopper it was like i was gagging and he was just laughing so hard almost pitas back and they got that on tape too that was is just a preview of joe exotic to listen to the rest subscribe to joe exotic on apple podcasts or wherever you're listening right now.

Joe exotic joe joe joe zoo joe shrp vogel Jacqueline thomson oklahoma jovan jacqueline geico youtube carol baskin Ke apple kim jones travers john spotify fifty one years
Season 3 - Episode 28

They Walk Among Us

42:01 min | 1 year ago

Season 3 - Episode 28

"Support for they walk. Among us is brought to you by ADT ADT can now design and install a smart time. Just for you backed by twenty four seven protection their new small-time is customizable to your lifestyle and make you feel safe or listening to this podcast. For instance, you can say lockup service than ADT were lock your doors closed, the garish door an arm. Your system ADT will set up your home with multiple smart time devices and security features like video doorbells, cameras locks and more. Visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn how ADT can design and install a secure smart home. Just for you. Welcome to season three episode twenty eight they walk among us put cost dedicated to u k true crime. To keep up to date with news on the podcast. You can follow us on our social media accounts were on Facebook and Instagram, and they walk among us put cast or you can follow us on Twitter at T W A underscore podcast. Listen to cushion is advised. Is this episode contains adult themes and descriptions that some listeners may find distressing. You into the stolen car. Started the engine and left his mother's hyme vehicle. Wasn't the only thing he had stolen concealed under a blanket. In the boot of the car was pump-action. Shotgun answer, my munition taken from his stepfather women in the southeast were not safe. The severity of his crimes escalated fast. It is mother's and stepfather's house in kit Weli southwest. Wiles just washed the eighteen now ready to leave. He was heading east to his home impinge southeast London vehicle. He had chosen was a distinctive car. It was a sporty three door Audi Q pay in the unusual choice of crane became the motorway and stop to Garrett pulling up on a dark roadside. So the forecourt lights wouldn't shine into the car and expose what he was doing. He couldn't wait until he was in the privacy of his own Heim. He walked around to the back of the vehicle remove the shotgun and a hack saw from the boot returned to the driver's seat and began to soar through the barrel removing inches from his length. The shotgun was cumbersome and long to wouldn't have been much use in the small space of a sports car. Now, the gun was much easier to maneuver a close second to a handgun. After a day spent with a boyfriend it was Tonto guy. Heim the noise which roaring in a trip was to be taken in the dock. It was November second nineteen ninety-five deeping Baath in yellow citrine, just after eight pm and sticking mostly to the mites ways on route Hewitt arrive Hyman hot fit sheer before eleven providing the roads were clear in the relative safety of car, and such a direct journey once she had made before there was no reason to think she would not make it back to her three children. A husband died. She was solely responsible for them. Roughly twenty miles into her journey. She hit a slip road allowing her to merge eastbound onto the m four motorway on junction eighteen going towards London. She wasn't the only passing traveling this way full being headlights luminated icon from behind. She could see now day in Rivi Mira from the shadows. The loan driver appeared to be male. He was tailgating her Citron edging close enough to need to break speeding up than again having to come to an abrupt halt before she could decide what to do. The Audi took off driving past the side of her vehicle. She remained driving on the inside lane. Chief -bility driven off with no other cars up ahead. He pulled into her lane. And the break Lloyd snapped on he was slowing down. Then he start. She drew near to the station. Revengeful pulling out into the next line. To overtake in continue driving. A couple of minutes later, the cream car was again in her line of sight getting dangerously close to hub bumper all of a sudden he pulled out getting into the lane beside her and as he did. So she felt the car being shunted forward the Audi then overtook her Citron getting into the same lane before the red brake lights of the vehicle in front appeared. Once again, forcing her to slow down the driver pulled onto the hard shoulder in that split second. She decided to stop to maybe they wanted to share their insurance. Details after hitting her car, she go out and walk towards the Audi but panic hitter she can now see the young man in the driver's seat. Is boy's face was a Todd with his large muscular physique. She had second thoughts turned one hundred ninety degrees on the spot and ran back to her situation before she could get back to a car to drive away the manager jumped from his vehicle and wasn't far behind. You wasn't built. For speed is legs were so muscular he had developed a peculiar gait, regardless. It made it to the vehicle before she could put the key in the ignition and drive away. He swung open the passenger door shouting at the woman to get out. He had a knife was trying to pull her out of the car. She managed to score away attempting to escape but only made it a few steps along the hard shoulder before she felt a hand Pulo backwards forced in a headlock while being dragged towards the outy. She fought a stranger with every ounce of energy, she had punching kicking and shouting. But it was no use. He punched repeatedly in the face the open the passenger side door. And through in the foot swell before she heard the sound of a loud, click doors unlocked. Avoid gently hanker after hands behind her back and brought out the soon of shotgun threatening to kill her. If she continued to find in the front struggle. She had been cut by the knife. She had no other option, but to stay silent. The didn't realize even though she couldn't see outside the brave woman was retaining as much information as she possibly could the direction of travel and speed for what she thought was about two hours meant night remained on the motorway. She guests they were likely in an area of London when the car finally start. They had pulled up in a secluded Alliott. Woodside green in Croydon. Was nineteen by now. Use the shotgun again to full sir to comply. Pope type in the boot and made a get inside the claustrophobic space before it was locked is the sound of his footsteps faded into the distance. She was on our own for twenty minutes. She shouted and kick the boot trying to catch someone's attention. It might little difference. No one could here. He then heard vehicle pull up nearby kidnapper at Lefter in the boot to steal a car a bluest in Montego. You pulled around to the outy when the woman was brutally raped repeatedly. Despite the huge amounts of trauma. She retained some details. She took to mind that her attack drank point of milk disposed of the container in the alley. European league debated with himself whether or not he was going to kill her rationalizing that he was going to get life anyway to use training in social work to try and talk him down. He ROY food through her handbag taking money in reading Scheldt support booklet which had a name and address on the front. the morning lights had finally arrived. She should have been Heim safely. I was a guy. A man led to get dressed. Both of them were now in the Austin Montego. She was in the passenger seat table to look out the window straight after pulling out of the alley. She kept her Risa open for a recognizable landmark she noticed a pug Kuba. Join his arms a white building with Haein baskets decorations that included a wooden wagon wheel eventually the cost stopped. They were at Victoria catch station. You gave us some money Aena portion of what she had in our purse and said you can use this fan money to get home. You wave the Chelsea port booklet in front of her and reminded her not to tell the police. Type thirteenth nineteen ninety-five. Any a few weeks before the disturbing incident on the full motorway? A twenty five year old woman was alone in our car driving along the m one when for fifteen minutes a man in a light colored car had terrorized. Driving dangerously close to her bumper even resorting to spinning his car to a halt to try and stop a vehicle. Luckily, she avoided a collision within or any other motorists on the road. She goes out and ran to a nearby house screaming for help and the police were called. Just three days later. The man could meet his first nine, right? Teenager was waiting for a bus at a stop in Banstead. Nick Roydon the cost lay down and stop assigned to the driver offered to give her a lift she accepted and hoped into the passenger say to the sportscar some point she may have noticed that she wasn't being taken to her destination. Instead, she was driven to the grounds of Epsom racecourse a few miles away the man threatened to screwdriver to a throat and writer did you up to RAF time afterwards, making sure he knew her redress fearing the man could return to anytime. She didn't report it to police until later. Again, just three days after his loss. Crime on October nineteenth nineteen ninety-five a nineteen year old woman left her home in the village of stood Surrey she'd run out of cigarettes. So that's thing poked out to buy some more. It was eleven thirty pm and all the shops were shut she headed to a petrol station along the a four a major road careful to not get too close to the traffic in the dark. She walked beside a low walled. She had no way of knowing a man was lurking on the other side. She walked alongside it. The man grab to in the teenager at knife point. He appeared to be an active for the next couple of weeks until the awful night. He left his parents house with a gun. Jecklin Murray known to family and friends as Jackie was twenty two years old was living and working in London originally from Bradford she started sex work. They're in late teens, but left the area when the Yorkshire ripper Peter Sutcliffe was still at large in the north of England. The high percentage of the women Sutcliffe attack or kill the worked in the red light districts Jacqueline left her hometown for the bright lights of London. And the new starts way from the fed that she could fall victim to the ripper since the voice of the man who claims to be the Ripa was broadcast last night. Specially set-up switchboard did Leeds Halifax Sunlen to being flooded with calls. So in the second major this week to catch the river. Detectives have released Sobel's or one of the flow letters written once again crowds at waited for hours. Some through the night to watch a sucker who arrived from Brixton in the green prison. The court heard how to those who knew him suck livers and unremarkable person. Living in suburban Bradford in a red light district. He picked up his first prostitute to try to see Sony as alleged affair in a different light. But he said I realized what a course involved a person the woman was my hatred for prostitutes. Cliff was cooled Jacqueline Murray. Chose to stay in London. She worked from luxury hotels picking up clients from the lobby or the ball often caught and thrown out. She would then move onto the next hotel. Tonight was one of those nights. It was Monday November four nine thousand nine hundred eighty five having just been jetted from one hotel Jacqueline who went by the name Averell to clients too long Park Lane with her friend Judy hoping to find a new hotel what they could pick up business without being noticed by the security stuff. Is they passed the Grosvenor house hotel at knowing fifty five PM contro buying mating. U-turn little further up the road before heading back towards the. The medium sized saloon car came to a halt of the Cup side and the drive a wound down the window. They briefly discuss business. The man bolt the time of both women, and they go to into the car Jacqueline in the passenger seat duty in the back is the constant the central locking was activated whom I STA mmediately. The man was driving a radically when they were near Hyde Park. He brought out a shotgun. Kunti to Lynn if the repair of Hanko Sutter, untold her to put them on. She refused. The women panicked warranted to get out of the car. Judy us two feet to frantically kick at one of the real windows, successfully smashing the glass into thousands of tiny pieces that scattered along the road as the car was still moving. She got up and lent out the window waving her arms. She shouted for help. The driver turned in his seat and pull the back into the car as he repositioned himself. He pointed the gun at Jacqueline pressed it to a skin and pulled the trigger. Without stopping he drove past marble arch and not long after came to an abrupt stop in north carriage drive. You release the central locking and push Jacqueline Marie out of the car. Judy sees the opportunity to scrapple out of the unlocked door and escape. She hit until you'd gone. Jacqueline Mary died from her wounds. The man committing these horrific crimes near the sing is nine was Joan state. He lived in a small dark apartment in pendulum. It was a spicy shed with his girlfriend. Sharon Bovill, fill a twenty one. She was one year his junior the had been living together in bits around Croydon for the last two years. Sharon was treated brutally. Boy state. The abuse was mental as well. As physical insisted she called him, God, if it upon in court, it was revealed that Sharon was told in detail about the ripe softer he committed them. She said he called and told her about the murder of Jacqueline Murray. She told him she was going back to their flat. But ended up spending the night in the van. She drive for a living. In contrast to his aggression. Joan state lived a restraint lifestyle you didn't drink or smoke. But he did inject on a Bullock steroids was fixated with -taining what he believed was the perfect body. He devout protein sometimes consuming a couple of pounds of me ten six eggs in one meal and spent hours lifting weights at the gym Clinton would playing dirty Harry was a character. I delighted so obsessed with Eastwood it was reported. He wants tried to hypnotize himself into thinking he was dirty, Harry when they didn't work a friend said he obtained a gun illegally under the party trick went up to people. He knew pulling the trigger on the empty gun. Steed, followed zen Buddhism, but was selected with the parts he took on board. He had time to pursue these interests as he was a self employed mechanic with. Little work coming his way. He picked up an interesting cars from his father who was also a mechanic, the work near where John Steed, right? The woman he abducted on the m full motorway the coding to Steed has charted was turbulent at five. He witnessed his father rape, his mother at their home and domestic violence was a regular occurrence eventually parents separated and live with his mother money was scarce, and she attempted suicide three times Steed was alone. Who was caught in his early teens stealing cars nefence that he would repeat along with charges for actual bodily home possessing offensive weapons and indecent exposure in total he appeared in court sixteen times when he was doing a stint in prison at seventeen he said is Gil friend visited him and told him she had cheated on him with another man stayed later told police only had a. A bird once that I loved was good to her. I'm convinced. They don't want to be treated nice. The more horribly want more. They like it. This made me feel the what women want is not to be treated with respect. And can they want to be treated like shit? They seem to like it. Detective later said of state is take Hewlett intelligent and good looking on the face of it seem to have a lot going for. But he is absolutely evil. The police officers simply said he was the best looking guy I ever saw. The looks that he worked so hard on initially help state attract women, but his personality off tonight deterrent, the manager of the Jim Jim Steed attended said. Some of the gills felt very uncomfortable with him. Here seem to feel the two women were bitten failure. His mother Sheila stated he could never have any human relationships, even as a toddler. He couldn't be cuddled. You would never let anyone Cutler. She said that his father would beat him until sun, which show contempt for everyone. She didn't think he was interested in goes was preoccupied with his looks and physique. Support for they will come on these brought to you by ADT ADT can now design and install a smart time. Just for you backed by twenty four seven protection, then new small-time is customizable to your lifestyle and make you feel safe or listening to this podcast. For instance, you can say lockup service and ADT were lock your doors closed, the guarantor an arm. Your system ADT will set up your home with multiple smart devices and security features like video doorbells, cameras locks and more. Visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn how ADT can design and install secure smart home. Just for you. Victoria, coach station before most people had risen for that day. The horrific nine our audio was Ivor she was alive, but in a bad why captors parting words threatened her not to tell the police she summoned help when she arrived at the hospital. It was discovered. Her injuries were so horrific they could have been fatal a newspaper reported. She was pregnant, but she miscarried after the attack. He relayed all the information. She could to police he mentioned seeing pub Kuba join zones just after she was driven away from the site where she was attacked that was six join his own in and around London at the time after a detailed investigation offices finally discovered. The correct one with the wooden wagon wheel decoration and hanging baskets. Survivor of the attack accompanied them and started to tremble when the car she was in pulled up outside from her reaction on description. Detectives knew they had the right place opponent finding the pub this quickly led them to the crime scene. They scoured the area for milk container. The perpetrator drank from before he despised of it. The police praised the survivors, memory and courage throughout the deal. Inspect to Fethi said he had great presence of mind an alert terrified she knew. She had to talk to stay alive. He'll say use the time together evidence. She's highly intelligent with a phenomenal memory in. Great courage finished by saying I have nothing Batat Marais for her. Operation Joyner was set up consisting of team of twenty six members of the metropolitan police force. They felt there was significant similarities in the attacks to link them together, they work closely with the wheelchair in Thames Valley. Police forces on the team were early to employ the use of computers in the investigation. Details of the crimes were fed into the police national computer alot Kalim national database used by law enforcement. There were a number of similarities provided by the victims. When describing the assailant is age range fell between twenty to thirty is build. Muscular medium to heavy set is Mansi Brown, and this clothing the same. Every time a fairly generic count fit of a casual leather jacket, and jeans to the cases invoked constraining with handcuffs. Three weapons were mentioned throughout screwdriver a knife. Under sewn of shotgun. Most of the women described a cream or light colored car but detectives rule so looking for doc MG moisture parallels drawn between his accent speech. The words he shows undies gates when he walked it became clear that the crimes were my certainly linked and a confidential hotline was set up the teenage girl, he was dumped it from Banstead found the courage to cool the number which was connected to an incident room in Croydon of the women that came forward reach given twenty four hour police protection at the safehouse. Jim stated gone out of his way to let them know. He knew where they lived. And it was reported. They received threatening phone calls before they will put tons of the protection of the police the Kula had worn the not to go to the authorities or he would quote, get even it was entirely possible. He could turn up their Himes, especially since one of the victims reported that Jim. Steed acted as if it was a consensual hookup when he dropped her off at her house. He suggested that they need for six again. The public was warned not to approach if they saw remained matching his description. He was on. The NextRadio dangerous chief superintendent Mike punches spoke about the murder of Jacqueline Murray said isn't absolutely ruthless attack. You pull the trigger of a soon of shotgun at point blank range that can never be any justification for having a gun like that. June. Steeds name was beginning to get noticed by police a cool came in from an ex girlfriend of states. She said she was greeted by him waiting outside our house one day, and he was driving a light colored out. You poor position to six and then left avoid to piece of evidence found at the scene. The moat container at his fingerprints on it, John. Steed hadn't gone on the run. He had left his home hoping to lay low until the urgency to catch him taken a back seat. You would rear is head not far away in Sydenham southeast London Takhar show. Looking for a brand new vehicle. He abandoned his usual method of stealing one and changing the license plate the show room. Steed us to test drive Renai salesman, accompanied the customer but was threatened with weapon and forcefully. Push. From the con-. Joan stay left in the Renai. The police will called officers visited his basement flats on Croydon road in pendulum both John Steed. Sharon Bovill had vacated a week before leaving the flat sparsely. Furnished Sharon had returned to parents home in Croydon when police arrived. They would then told she had left two days earlier to get away. Assists. Shirley said she is obviously upset she is going away for a few days to recover. Detectives believe Jim state was still in corden so unmarked police caused true the streets back alleys looking for the stolen car. The perseverance paid off when they located the Reynaud on the seventh floor car park, the Fairfield holes in Croydon, they didn't know if the car had been abandoned their will the suspect was returning. They staked out the car. We don't police on stunt. But about two hours later a man with a distinctive gait matching steeds description walked to the car, you go in the sound of Accardo shutting an engine revving echoed in the concrete Comstock become pulled out of its parking spot wouldn't get much further than the exit. It was blocked in vehicle surrounded. Steed was arrested without incident. John Steed was remanded in custody for three days and on November thirteenth nineteen ninety-five. At Bow Street magistrates court, he was charged with the murder of Jacqueline Murray, rape and theft that the time Steed and the women. He rates were not named in the press under the sexual offenses amendment act of nineteen seventy six with enforced anonymity for rape complainants and defendants lay to the animated for right? Defendants was repealed. Jacqueline Murray's parents briefly spoke to the press five days off that daughter's murder along with their twin teenage door to Susan an end, they arrived timing Bradford. After assisting Scotland Yard, Patrick and Mary Murray originally from oil and wanted to set matters straight had been reported in the press particularly report from the previous day. The article said the family had lived in Bradford for three years. The Murray said they'd been there for thirty. The suggestion was Susan and when not employed Patrick Murray made it clear that the twins were both in full time employment. A neighbor had been quite the same. We Jackie work to way. But we didn't really know what she did for a living. The anything we have noticed was old men cooling the house that was when a parent's visiting people in Australia for six weeks earlier this year, the Murray said the strange men were actually friends and family members checking in on the house. As they were brought for so long. Colleague of Patrick Murray's, the taxi company where he worked also spoke to a report of the day. After Jacqueline Murray was identified. He said Patrick got a telephone call from his wife loss night asking him to go. Hi marginally. You never mentioned his family at work. He's such an ice Blake. This devastate him. list for the Croydon in post and associated papers found himself in hot water when he left metropolitan police foles relating to the June. Steed case in the bar of a hotel UPN core during April nineteen Ninety-seven. He was accused of knowingly breaching the official secrets act is defense counsel said there was no evidence that he's client had been given the documents in contravention of the act, and the journalist was also not aware the falls were covered by the judge said one of the curiosities by the official secrets act requires the prosecution to prove that information was communicated to the defendant in contravention of the act to his knowledge. Therefore, the prosecution must prove that the defendant have knowledge of the law, this they have not done said the prosecution must come to an end. However, the judge refused to reimburse the journalists employers stating that spent that money about their business. He ring at the Old Bailey on November fifth. Nineteen Ninety-six Joan Steed pleaded not guilty to the murder of Jacqueline Murray. Instead, he put forward a guilty plea of manslaughter on the grounds diminished responsibility. He claimed the steroids t abused partly responsible for him carrying out. The ax is defense counsel said steroids tree of his behavior. They turned him into a violent man with an insatiable sexual appetite the defense by of steeds traumatic sheltered and witnessing the rape of his mother's shaped his actions the fence counsel. Robert flack, presented one of the most intelligent and chilling profiles of a psychopath. That has ever been heard within the walls of an Old Bailey courtroom. Jon Allen Steed emerged as a psychopathic adult from Meyer of emotional. Deprivation and inadequacy Mr. flack said one asks where it all starts the story that ends in death in Park Lane. What causes? Man to become a psychopath. Mr. fach said he was a man is seeking mind. As victim of cancer is sick in body. He emerged believing the more horrible. He was the more women liked it. He felt power elation. He felt god-like. He was now the, hyper manic psychopath and the violence inside him was triggered when he began to take steroids and inject himself with drugs. He wanted to be a real life JAMES BOND. Cool charming machine capable of anything. John Steed was charged with three counts of right, and one charge of acting woman with intent to have sexual intercourse with. All four of the charges. He admitted his guilt. In addition charges for theft of numerous 'cause were added along with the fifth of the shotgun from his stepfather collection of weapons found in Jones states possession and amongst his belongings was shown to the court one shotgun the murder weapon. One pistol a pair of handcuffs three knives that will might for hunting and to Flathead screwdrivers. Details of the crime will read aloud as Joan state such emotion pile throughout the proceedings he's killed French Sharon, both Ville, wet. She liked to talk to the stunned that was questioned about a home life with Jim state an intimate details of their relationship. She told the cool that he confessed her what he had done. The woman that Steve abducted on the m full Motoo way was referred to as Missy Ontario annuity continued to be protected. Dope to the treated her in hospital testified this woman has been subjected to almost fight to violent assault in my thirty years experience. I have rarely seen such an attack where the victim has survived prosecuting. Alan green told the court the Steed had been assessed by three so contrast three concurred he had a psychopathic disorder to a working on behalf of the defense. One for the crown you his condition. They came to the conclusion that it substantially impaired his mental responsibility for the killing. Alan green said they also agreed that should be no medical disposal. There is not a question of a hospital order, but in prisonment instead you went onto explain how thoroughly steeds plea was considered. He said it was discussed the highest level with staff, the director of public prosecutions and the police the judge. Jones Miskin accepted states less plea of manslaughter. This particularly fended rector have over some week period last year. And as a judge said, he reduced women to stock Tara indeed very highly dangerous individual the court heard the catalog of violence against three. We mean all raped one only four feet eleven inches tall all underwent the humiliation of St. presenting a black soliloquy on whether he should kill them. We're not Steed was holding a knife in one hand and a gun in the other third victims of thirty nine. June. Steed was back in court to be sentenced five days later. The judge wrist eat said you represent such a danger to the public especially to women have no hesitation in giving you life sentences for each rape. And for the manslaughter until the four life sentences. Steed was given twenty years for the other offenses. So the cool Detective Inspector Fethi spoke of the brave actions of the force of over said, though, she was absolutely terrified. She kept him in conversation long enough to collect evidence, which was useful. And ended with the successful conclusion of the case police come on the algae on Hemingway also gave a statement by count complementary actions to highly indeed, she's a professional woman, she acted with restraint with Kuhn's presence under very verse conditions, and indeed it was only by her alertness that obviously prevented her falling victim and could have been. Police on rule explained. Why Sharon by Ville was not charged for having knowledge of Joan steeds crimes her evidence was so important. She was used as a prosecution witness, but you must bear in mind. She was no different from other women because she herself was facing star. Tara. Because she knew. That she could spill the beans if she was able but it was too dangerous. So where are we now? Jim Steed was locked up, and as the survivors of his brutality could not be named the focus turned to Sharon by Bill. She chose to stunned by state saying he wanted to marry him. She sold an exclusive interview about her relationship which included details of their sex life to the now defunct newspaper, the news of the world of the papers voice their outrage after the article was published one said is Gil French Sharon Bovill could have stoked him because he took some pleasure in describing to her what he was doing. She could have tipped off the police in. So sped other women from being subjected to a pooling and degrading ordeals referring to Bovill in the tabloids. It went on to say, she poses Lucca glam ago. The blown Sharon tells how she willingly submitted to states perverted practices from from facing any prosecution. She's now, my certainly cashing in on his infamy and complicity. Of the newspapers took a more sympathetic viewpoint towards Sharon Bovill in alignment with the police statements. Jim Steed was told in nineteen ninety seven his life sentence would mean life. You would have to spend the rest of his days behind bars. He tried to commit suicide by way of an overdose is attempt fight. On Sunday July thirteenth nineteen ninety seven. He tried again in his cell full Sutton prison June. Stay tore up the sheets from his bed loop them around his neck and hung himself. Every year lighter in November nineteen ninety eight. An inquest was held at holes Corrina, cooled Joan states mother was in attendance in Croix throughout the proceedings. The inquest heard Steed used the balls on his cell window as an anchor Joyce zone as a medical officer the prison recalled the in might telling him that it was his duty as a Buddhist to escape. Hell verdict was reached Joan state taken his own life. Thank you for listening and special things to patriot supporters for more information, please visit they walk among us put cast dot com.

John Steed Jim Jim Steed Sharon Bovill Jacqueline Murray Joan steeds London Croydon ADT rape murder Joan Audi Banstead Bradford Inspector Fethi Judy Heim Jacqueline Marie